MasterOfGaunts wrote: I have a flyrant and he shouldnt be slowed down by his buddies. If you put a prime into the guard he would benefit of the higher average toughness.
Exactly - I was wondering if anyone has tried this yet, although at about 475 pts for a Flyrant, 3 Tyrant Guard and a Prime it might not be worth it
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PrinceRaven wrote: But why is the slot the Prime is currently filling not instead being filled by a Hive Tyrant?
So I don't normally run buildings, looking over the rules in the rule book & SHA does the Imperial Bastion have a external access point to the Battlements? or do you deploy via the building (needing 2 turns) or does the bit in SHA mean you can move up it like a ruin anyway? Think I've confused myself.
I don't have the IB model, currently working on Nidastion but I can't see any external points to deploy strait onto it.
PrinceRaven wrote: But why is the slot the Prime is currently filling not instead being filled by a Hive Tyrant?
There's more than just Tyrants in the HQ section
Just curious about the possibilities
True, and there are reasons why you would take a Prime over a Tyrant, I'm just wondering what reasons are to take Prime + Tyrant Guard over Hive Tyrant + Tyrant Guard. What does it bring to the table that a Hive Tyrant can't?
I think you use what the list demands in terms of HQs. A Tervigon in the HQ slot is not bad but it cannot join a squad of termagants. I think this is what is being missed here. Primes in squads of termagants is your most durable source of synapse. And if you believe that IB is not a big issue you need to play more games. The Norn Crown is admittedly an expensive upgrade. But those those 6"can at times be crucial. Again, it depends on the rest of the list. We are having a similar discussion on warp shadow. Why use a Crone as AA - it is fragile, a flyrant has a little better mathematical chance to take out flyers at AV10 - 12, it is difficult to get in a position to vector strike, etc. So yes, it has all those faults. But it is still one of our very best sources of AA - especially if you are not going to be tied into using Flyrants in every list and considering that the FA slot is generally not extensively exploited ( it could be with skyslashers, spore clusters, etc., but tends to be ignored).
The issue is that we are being told on the web that we need to shoehorn our builds with particular units to be successful despite the fact that you read batreps and these builds are not winning consistently at all. Time for the ostrich to pull his out of the ground and see what is coming at him. I'm not anti-flyrant. But there are are other good HQ builds. Why is no one exploring Trygon Primes in their builds either. A Prime with a miasma cannon is terrifying when it drops and rarely mishaps. Just don't isolate it entirely. Why are Biovores used and a 30 point Spore Cluster (str9) ignored entirely in builds? I see Jy2 uses a bastion as do a few others. There are good fortifications for Nids. But they are also being overlooked by many players. Someone uses a vengeance battery and gets hammered for suggesting it - personally thinking of trying out a firestorm redoubt in my builds.
There is no winning Nid build yet that we can agree on so it behooves us to explore as many options as possible to at lest try and develop builds that are competitive in a tac environment no? I don't want to play games where the outcome is prety much assured by turn three barring amazing end rolls by the Nid player.
felixcat wrote: Why is no one exploring Trygon Primes in their builds either. A Prime with a miasma cannon is terrifying when it drops and rarely mishaps. Just don't isolate it entirely.
I can see multiple Trygon Primes working well with the new vanguard formations - not only will they land accurately and blanket the enemy deployment zone in SitW, but they immediately provide synapse to cancel GtG on Lictors/Stealers. Throw in a handful of Shrikes and Gargoyles and it could make an effective mostly-reserve list... assuming your opponent has no servo skulls
felixcat wrote: Why is no one exploring Trygon Primes in their builds either. A Prime with a miasma cannon is terrifying when it drops and rarely mishaps. Just don't isolate it entirely.
I can see multiple Trygon Primes working well with the new vanguard formations - not only will they land accurately and blanket the enemy deployment zone in SitW, but they immediately provide synapse to cancel GtG on Lictors/Stealers. Throw in a handful of Shrikes and Gargoyles and it could make an effective mostly-reserve list... assuming your opponent has no servo skulls
I personally like 2 primes and a normal trygon...I just need to get them, I never bought into them because the meta never really let up on them...longfangs, grey knights, dark angels...I finally feel like the investment is worth it personally.
People can rip me apart but I'm working on a list that contains:
Swarmlord + Guard
Tyranid Prime
Tervigon (Crushing Claws)
Hormagants
Termagants
Haruspex
Venomthrope
2 Tyrannofexen
2 Dakkafexen (with adrenal)
Aegis Defense line
Weaknesses:
Anti-air, yes. Dakkafexen are nothing to scoff at though, in this regard. More importantly, the horde that will be generated can restrict flyer movement.
Grav guns, Yes. That's what the 2+ cover save is for.
Not incredibly mobile
Strengths:
38 T6 wounds!!!
Durable synapse
2+ cover saves (unless Tau)
Come on Catalyst!
Board control is MINE!!!
Hormagaunts will probably be ignored and so they can work to tarpit a unit or two
What do you guys think about running a Walking tyrant+Guard(all with adrenals) in place of Carnifexes for enemy pressure? Other slot still being the typical flyrant, and crones so he isn't alone in the sky.
For example, if you used all your heavy support slots for Exocrines etc.
Bulldogging wrote: What do you guys think about running a Walking tyrant+Guard(all with adrenals) in place of Carnifexes for enemy pressure? Other slot still being the typical flyrant, and crones so he isn't alone in the sky.
For example, if you used all your heavy support slots for Exocrines etc.
Generally, I'm trying it out a lot...I've been seeing that you either run Swarmy, or a Stranglethorn hive commander that sits back to buff other creatures...especially if your meta can down a flyrant like nothing.
But I think flanking with Swarmy and handing out buffs and psychic powers to a bunch of exocrines is a great strategy.
Idea is to push forward with everything, using the venomthropes + gargoyles to help with cover while using the Tyrant, Broodlord and 2 harpies to try to pin units down and help limit damage on the first turn. The termagaunts will outflank and try to get an annoying shooting attack on a backfield infantry unit.
Ok, here are my thoughts:
1. Try to fit in 1 more dakka flyrant if you can.
2. Why 2 units of warriors? They don't do anything for the list but to hold the backfield. Personally, I would swap out both units of warriors for a tervigon. No matter how nerfed he may have been, he is still superior IMO because of psychic powers and the ability to generate more troops.
3. If you don't run a tervigon, I'd recommend breaking up your unit of 30-gants into 3x10 gants.
4. Why 6 genestealers? Just go 5 stealers + broodlord.
5. You don't have much in the way of ranged AT. Give at least 1 of your harpies TL-HVC.
6. If you need the extra points (i.e. say, for the 2nd flyrant), you can drop the regen's on your TMC's. More big bugs > big bugs with regen.
jy2,
While I defer to you as a more experienced player, I disagree mildly with some of your advice.
1) In my opinion you shouldn't ever run warriors (90 pts) without paying for a heavy weapon (10 pts). They are usually going to be out of range of devourers, but at least a Barbed Strangler gives them something to do while sitting on an objective, or hiding behind the rest of your army.
2) The Broodlord is both expensive and only situationally useful, because many units can't be pinned. Genesteelers are not an effective combat unit, they are an objective holder that can outflank with a leadership 10 (so lack of synapse is less problematic), so keeping them as cheap as possible is the way to go. Spending any more than 70 pts on them feels like a waste.
3) Harpies are made for the HVC. Stranglethorn Cannon is for Carnifexes. If you can hit where you want with a small blast it is going to do nearly as much damage as a large blast. The large blast is preferable mainly to mitigate inaccurate fire.
4) Mawloc is more useful and cheaper than Trygon.
5) I've never seen Tyrannofex make back its points. My opponents recognize that he is tough to kill so they target squishier things first, and his damage output is low compared to other heavy support options (Carnifexes, Biovores)
6) I feel like taking advantage of synergy is huge.
A) Bastion + Venom = More shrouded range that is AV14
B) Bastion + Flyrant = Alpha strike survival
C) Comms Relay + Mawloc = reliable Mawloc
D) Comms Relay + Harpy = useful FMC in reserves.
E) Comms Relay + Genestealers = Genestealers arriving later thus more survivable.
So instead of your suggestion, I would look for something more like this.
25 Gargoyles (150)
1 Harpy w/ HVC (140)
1 Harpy w/ HVC (140)
3 Biovore (120)
1 Mawloc (140)
1 Exocrine (170)
1 Bastion + Comms Relay (95)
Maybe I've changed the original list too much to honor the original poster.
Keep in mind that I am just trying to improve his list, using as much of the original units in his list as possible. I am not trying to overhaul his army. Also, there may be an issue with the models that he owns so I always go with a minimal amount of changes to a person's list to make it stay as close to his original as possible.
1. Cool. No worries. Just drop 2 gargoyles to pick up the barbed strangler if that is what you prefer. Just beware that the minute he pokes his head out to shoot, the opponent can shoot him back.
2. I was suggesting a reworking of his list. Personally, I don't run Broodlords myself, but if the list-owner wants to include one in his list, I try to adjust the list to his specs.
3. The HVC can be added in to the harpies with no problem. Since the list-owner left it out originally, I thought he perhaps wanted to run them stock. 1+1 configuration is a nice compromise between the 2. Personally for me, I'd probably run 2 HVC's myself.
4. Like I said, wanted to let him run units that he probably wants to run. I agree that the Mawloc is arguably better than the trygon in this edition, but I left the trygon in there because it's not really that bad.
5. T-fexes, biovores, carnifexes, exocrines, mawlocs....all can be good depending on the situation. Any of them can be viable. I mainly left him there to stay as close to the list-owner's original list in case it is with models he currently has.
Your suggested list is fine as well. As a matter of fact, it is probably more synergistic. When I get a list, I tend to try to stay as close to the original as possible in the case that they are the actual models that the person has to work with. If you give me a Ford to work with, I'm going to try my best to make your Ford run faster instead of telling you to go out and buy a Porshce instead.
jy2 wrote: Your suggested list is fine as well. As a matter of fact, it is probably more synergistic. When I get a list, I tend to try to stay as close to the original as possible in the case that they are the actual models that the person has to work with. If you give me a Ford to work with, I'm going to try my best to make your Ford run faster instead of telling you to go out and buy a Porshce instead.
This...is why I like you, Flingitnow, and Jeffersonian above almost all others for realistic advice.
I've had a chance to play some games against Orks and Tau (seperately, not allied) and have started to form a few ideas for myself re the new dex:
1. If you have enough synapse coverage, IB doesn't really become an issue - most of the games I have seen just don't use enough because there are a lot of other attractive toys they want to try;
2. If you're running dual Flyrants - try to run 2 broods of zoeys and a tervy as well. Those Flyrants become a lot more survivable (and by extension the rest of your army) if they have catalyst on them
3. Don't spread out - this makes overlapping synapse bubbles easier, and helps concentrate your strength
4. Pinning weaponry and Horror are great against Tau - if you're having problems with Tau, this is a nice place to go to get some help (Doesn't work as well if your opponent has an Ethereal though)
5. Venomthropes are good, but not essential. It's amazing how often you don't end up getting anything out of them (armour is the same or better, or shooting is ignoring cover)
Unit wise:
Flyrants - fantastic with catalyst, use carefully without
Biovores - Fantastic against Tau, take out firewarriors/pathfinders behind Aegis lines with ease!
Warriors - Good backfield synapse support, give them a strangler for another pinning weapon
Tervigon - Great Troop for holding objectives, and giving you more reliable synapse
Exocrine - A bit situational, but will suit some lists
Trygon Primes - Great additional reliable synapse if you are lacking, but a bit pricey if you already have synapse covered
Gargoyles - Brilliant - I will always take 20+ of these guys, too good to pass up and worth it against any army.
I'm obviously still trying out lots of different things - Harpy is on the agenda next (I like the idea of adding a third flyer, and one with lots of pinning/pie plate goodness!) Also tempted to try the Prime in a unit of 30 gants.
Will let you know how I go...
Until then - I am now convinced Tyranids can be competitive (even against Taudar), I think we're just taking longer then normal to work through all the kinks...
"The Broodlord is both expensive and only situationally useful, because many units can't be pinned...
People are finally starting to realize the Prime might actually be a good choice. A Broodlord is in many ways an economic version of the Prime plus he scores. I can't remember how many games my Broodlords won for me holding an objective and my opponents could not finish them off without fear of Tyranid retaliation. They are gamers winners and well worth their points. Give them toxin sacs and they are good to go.
MasterOfGaunts wrote: I have a flyrant and he shouldnt be slowed down by his buddies. If you put a prime into the guard he would benefit of the higher average toughness.
Exactly - I was wondering if anyone has tried this yet, although at about 475 pts for a Flyrant, 3 Tyrant Guard and a Prime it might not be worth it
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PrinceRaven wrote: But why is the slot the Prime is currently filling not instead being filled by a Hive Tyrant?
There's more than just Tyrants in the HQ section
Just curious about the possibilities
I do and it is surprisingly durable as both very tough and ends up with a lower priority level than say the flyrant in the face or the fex brood crashing the lines. Though normally with just 2 guard, but still very good for keeping your Warlord alive.
The more I see other people's lists, the more I'm tempted to run a 9-carnifex list for my next batrep. Since we're sharing ideas, and Lechine - I like the looks of that list - does anyone have thoughts they'd like to share on what they would run in a 9-fex list at 1850 points? I have my ideas of course, usually involving large blasts, but I'd like to hear what you all have to say on this. Cheers!
I've come to the frustrating conclusion that I will never be able to use the new dataslate, genestealers, or mawlocs and have any fun at all. There are just too many grey knight players/allies in my area and they all take as much warpquake and servo skulls as they can ><
Revamping the list with the advice I've gotten so far. Looks like big bugs may be the way to go; for me at least.
Nice to see someone dislike Tyranid troops as much as me. Have you tested this yet?
Not the exact list but very similar in the troop department.
I've brought more than this and I consistently find gaunts/gants to be wasted troops. Most games I'm content with holding a single objectives and denying the rest. If I get the Scouring I've got a lot of fast attack, if I get Big guns I have a lot of Heavy, if I get Purge then I dont care about
wasting points on troops.
I'm bringing the gants as shields for the Venomthropes to use and if they fail to take them down then a unit of gants is no laughing matter, plus they can almost keep up with the Gargoyles.
Also, my wife and I just had the sad talk of putting my Swarmlord down and turning him into a second flyrant. So may end up with:
Flyrant w/HVC and Devourers
Flyrant w/HVC and Devourers
Commander_Farsight wrote: I played against some Nids yesterday. I brought out my Tau. It was a great game... for me at least. I tabled the dude in 2 turns. That sounds really fast, but he was a really new player, or didn't play competitively until recently. He also let me take a couple of R'Varnas as I wanted to "try them out". I'm not going to ever play those things again unless I feel threatened by my opponent or its a tourney. The game was honestly not that fun in the scope of things. I then dropped the R'Varnas for our second game. I still won, but not nearly by as much. What do you think about these shenanigans against Nids?
BTW, the R'varna has been nerfed so that he is more worth his points now. Now his guns are only AP4 (yeah! Bugs get their 3+ saves!) and if he novas, he can't fire it on the next turn.
Wait! The rules got 40k approved, but with different stats!?
Commander_Farsight wrote: I played against some Nids yesterday. I brought out my Tau. It was a great game... for me at least. I tabled the dude in 2 turns. That sounds really fast, but he was a really new player, or didn't play competitively until recently. He also let me take a couple of R'Varnas as I wanted to "try them out". I'm not going to ever play those things again unless I feel threatened by my opponent or its a tourney. The game was honestly not that fun in the scope of things. I then dropped the R'Varnas for our second game. I still won, but not nearly by as much. What do you think about these shenanigans against Nids?
BTW, the R'varna has been nerfed so that he is more worth his points now. Now his guns are only AP4 (yeah! Bugs get their 3+ saves!) and if he novas, he can't fire it on the next turn.
Wait! The rules got 40k approved, but with different stats!?
He's still experimental, but he was adjusted, and might be again before he's no longer experimental.
Commander_Farsight wrote: I played against some Nids yesterday. I brought out my Tau. It was a great game... for me at least. I tabled the dude in 2 turns. That sounds really fast, but he was a really new player, or didn't play competitively until recently. He also let me take a couple of R'Varnas as I wanted to "try them out". I'm not going to ever play those things again unless I feel threatened by my opponent or its a tourney. The game was honestly not that fun in the scope of things. I then dropped the R'Varnas for our second game. I still won, but not nearly by as much. What do you think about these shenanigans against Nids?
BTW, the R'varna has been nerfed so that he is more worth his points now. Now his guns are only AP4 (yeah! Bugs get their 3+ saves!) and if he novas, he can't fire it on the next turn.
Wait! The rules got 40k approved, but with different stats!?
He's still experimental, but he was adjusted, and might be again before he's no longer experimental.
What are you all using to take out an enemy HQ? Swarmy is the only one who can fight in CC with his "invuln" save. Do you just try to shoot them to death?
Gatekeeper wrote: What are you all using to take out an enemy HQ? Swarmy is the only one who can fight in CC with his "invuln" save. Do you just try to shoot them to death?
Deathleaper...old one eye...primes...anything but the Tervigon can be a cc beast when kitted right...and he's not the worst cc unit out there...though finding him as an hq might be difficult,
Gatekeeper wrote: What are you all using to take out an enemy HQ? Swarmy is the only one who can fight in CC with his "invuln" save. Do you just try to shoot them to death?
Experimenting with the Red Horror for that. Being able to do challenges helps. High weapon skill and 6 attacks on the charge helps. The fact that a 80pt model has the ability to ignore FNP, armor saves, wounds and EW is pretty big.
I meant to do a batrep but forgot to take pictures until turn 3, so i just scrapped the idea. Instead I'll post here with a bat-recap I had monday night:
His list:
Chaos lord of slaanesh, axe of blind fury (is that even legal?)
Daemon Prince of tzeench, wings, black mace
5x chosen with flamers, land raider
2x10 noise marines with blastmaster and flamer thing, 2x Rhinos with havoc launchers
Defiler
Heldrake
The game type was scouring and the deployment hammer & anvil. I won first turn and took it, he seized the initiative.
Turn 1 he was able to bring a crone down to 4 wounds but couldn't get the last off it. He knocked 1 wound off an exocrine with a havoc launcher, and killed a few gaunts. His daemon prince and flyer were in reserve. (i had reserved my 10x gants and 3x warriors). My half of the turn i swooped up, vector struck and drool cannon'd some noise marines (he had the infiltrate D3 warlord trait). the flyrant slagged a rhino for first blood.
turn 2 only his daemon prince arrived, his land raider disembarked the chosen who flamed most of my hormagaunts to death and killed the last 5 in assault. DP tried some psy powers but failed due to shadows. On my turn the mawloc arrived, as well as the babysitters in the backfield. Mawloc scattered, killing only 2 noise marines. hive tyrant took out another rhino, exocrine killed some marines. Swarmlord and his guard assaulted the chosen, he punked the chosen sergeant while the others whiffed on the T. guard.
Turn 3 - his heldrake came on and used the baleflamer to kill some gargoyles. It wounded the exocrine but i saved with FNP thanks to a hyperslime river (note: this will come into play later). His chaos lord made all the invuln saves in a challenge vs swarmlord, and his DP assaulted and rolled a '1' on the daemon weapon, so stayed locked in cc with a zoey. My turn the wounded crone left the table, while the other one fired off some tentaclids at a heldrake, glancing it twice. The flyrant sat in the hyperslime and assaulted a land raider -immobilizing it. in melee the swarmlord finally killed the chaos lord, and the tyrant guard finished off the chosen - they consolidated towards the deamon prince/zoanthrope combat. His DP killed the zoey and moved towards my biovores (who had been missing most of their shots this game, or failing to wound with the ones that hit).
Turn 4- his DP assaults the biovores, and AGAIN rolls a '1' for attacks. his defiler keeps cracking battle cannon shots but only killing a few little bugs at a time due to area terrain cover. On his turn the tyrant auto-hits and destroys the land raider, taking a wound in the process. My turn i cast paroxysm on the defiler and roll a '3', making him WS/BS 0! I assault, auto-hit, but only cause him to be immobilized. Locked in CC. Crones vectorstrike/tentaclid the heldrake to death. Swarmlord needs a 7" charge to reach the DP's base and rolls a 6, so no charge. The DP kills the biovores and consolidates towards my termagant unit, holding a 3 pt objective. BTW mawloc has been stuck in hyperslime since it arrived turn 2 - it failed leadership to charge twice and once failed to roll enough distance to make CC.
Turn 5 - his DP assaults termagants killing 9 of them. Noise marines plink shots off at mawloc and do a wound. Other squad of 3 shoots at the gargoyle unit and drops them down to just 1 model. Thanks to swarmlord + dominion it is still in synapse. The hive tyrant destroys the defiler in CC. My turn - crones take up position on objectives - they're scoring in this mission. Exocrine finishes off one unit of noise marines, mawloc finally makes into CC with other unit - whiffs on attacks. Locked. Swarmlord successfully charges DP locked in CC with 1 termagant, challenges him. DP, as has been his trend, again rolls a 1 for attacks. I only cause 2 wounds and he makes both his invul saves. we roll and game goes to turn 6
Turn 6 - not much left for him to do, all his units are in CC or dead. Mawloc/noise marine combat is a slapfight. Swarmlord takes 2 wounds from daemon prince but instant-kills the prince in return. We call game there.
Crushing victory for tyranids - however my opponent made tons of mis-plays and had some really bad dice with his daemon weapons. I wouldn't take the batrep as a airtight defense for the codex, but i will say that I felt during the game that i certainly had tools to manage the challenges in front of me. Vs an optimized DE/Eldar list or TauDar list i don't think i would be so confident, but i'm always willing for the challenge.
I'll take pics and do a proper batrep at some point. Promise.
Nice report, interesting to hear of someone using mysterious terrain for a change.
tetrisphreak wrote: My turn i cast paroxysm on the defiler and roll a '3', making him WS/BS 0! I assault, auto-hit, but only cause him to be immobilized.
FYI - Maledictions can't reduce characteristics below 1, so the Defiler should have been WS/BS1.
xttz wrote: Nice report, interesting to hear of someone using mysterious terrain for a change.
tetrisphreak wrote: My turn i cast paroxysm on the defiler and roll a '3', making him WS/BS 0! I assault, auto-hit, but only cause him to be immobilized.
FYI - Maledictions can't reduce characteristics below 1, so the Defiler should have been WS/BS1.
I believe Paroxysm also states "to a minimum of 1"
tetrisphreak wrote: I meant to do a batrep but forgot to take pictures until turn 3, so i just scrapped the idea. Instead I'll post here with a bat-recap I had monday night:
His list:
Chaos lord of slaanesh, axe of blind fury (is that even legal?)
Daemon Prince of tzeench, wings, black mace
5x chosen with flamers, land raider
2x10 noise marines with blastmaster and flamer thing, 2x Rhinos with havoc launchers
Defiler
Heldrake
...
Crushing victory for tyranids - however my opponent made tons of mis-plays and had some really bad dice with his daemon weapons...
That CSM list looks seriously lacking in firepower. Does he have much success with it?
I'm eyeing a very similar list to yours (Flyrant + More Gaunts instead of Swarmlord) as soon as I get my Flyers ready to go. Is this the first time you've run it?
Is anyone else rocking people's world with Deathleaper?
Running mine against Tau, I take half the army's shooting almost every game with him. Honestly, All I really do with him i run circles around Fire Warriors and drop off spore mine presents...he's the best distraction ever.
ductvader wrote: Is anyone else rocking people's world with Deathleaper?
Running mine against Tau, I take half the army's shooting almost every game with him. Honestly, All I really do with him i run circles around Fire Warriors and drop off spore mine presents...he's the best distraction ever.
The Deathleaper can be a pain to deal with, however with Tau being an army that sits back and hides behind a gunline, there are two units I have had great success against them so far. Mawloc's just wreck Tau, and the Tau players at my store complain so much about it , as they think it's unfair that something like that can hit them so quickly and do so much damage, which I laugh at because it's hilarious to see Tau players say something is op when there book is insanely powerful in this shooting edition. The other unit that I recently had success with is an outflanking unit of 9x Warriors, 1x w/1x Barbed Strangler and 8x Deathspitters, as it puts out a lot of shots and it's something that an opponent cannot ignore, allowing your army time to cross the battlefield.
So far, I am 3-0 vs Tau with my Tyranids, as 2x times I played the Riptide spam list and won due to by just focusing there troop choices and taking the objectives, which many Tau players I have played against or have watched play also complain about as they say it takes the fun out of the game.......... don't ask why they think that . the 3rd game was when I tried out the outflanking Warrior unit against a Tau army with a lot of Fire Warriors and infantry units, and it was pretty epic as I did a ton of damage once i outflanked him and my Mawloc raised hell on his battle-line, ending in a Massacure to me .
As for my comments on the Tau. I don't hate Tau players, but while some are ok, most I have met are the most annoying, arrogant power-gamers who just want to kick peoples teeth in and it's fun to watch them squirm lol.
ductvader wrote: Is anyone else rocking people's world with Deathleaper?
Running mine against Tau, I take half the army's shooting almost every game with him. Honestly, All I really do with him i run circles around Fire Warriors and drop off spore mine presents...he's the best distraction ever.
The Deathleaper can be a pain to deal with, however with Tau being an army that sits back and hides behind a gunline, there are two units I have had great success against them so far. Mawloc's just wreck Tau, and the Tau players at my store complain so much about it , as they think it's unfair that something like that can hit them so quickly and do so much damage, which I laugh at because it's hilarious to see Tau players say something is op when there book is insanely powerful in this shooting edition. The other unit that I recently had success with is an outflanking unit of 9x Warriors, 1x w/1x Barbed Strangler and 8x Deathspitters, as it puts out a lot of shots and it's something that an opponent cannot ignore, allowing your army time to cross the battlefield.
So far, I am 3-0 vs Tau with my Tyranids, as 2x times I played the Riptide spam list and won due to by just focusing there troop choices and taking the objectives, which many Tau players I have played against or have watched play also complain about as they say it takes the fun out of the game.......... don't ask why they think that . the 3rd game was when I tried out the outflanking Warrior unit against a Tau army with a lot of Fire Warriors and infantry units, and it was pretty epic as I did a ton of damage once i outflanked him and my Mawloc raised hell on his battle-line, ending in a Massacure to me .
As for my comments on the Tau. I don't hate Tau players, but while some are ok, most I have met are the most annoying, arrogant power-gamers who just want to kick peoples teeth in and it's fun to watch them squirm lol.
Ensuring that all units hit the enemy lines at the same time seems to be a bigger and bigger deal.
On that: thinking of mixing deathleapers assassins, swarmy, a hive commander flyrant, 3x spore mines, triple mawloc, (about 1530 pts there.)
Swarmy's reserve bonus should mean there are 10+ units in the enemy's face turn 2.
I've been considering getting Tyranids for some time (stupid army ADHD...) and have figured that with the new book now's as good a time as any.
We play almost entirely at 1500 at my local club, so I'm considering the following list as a starting point:
Hive Tyrant
- Wings, Two Twin Brainleech Devourers, Hive Commander
Tyranid Prime
30 Termagants
- 15 Devourers
10 Termagants
15 Hormagaunts
- Adrenal Glands
Tervigon
- The Miasma Cannon
Two seperate Venomthropes
3 Carnifex
- All with two Twin Brainleech Devourers.
The idea (obvious though it may seem) is for the Flyrant to play early disruption on targets of opportunity without making itself an easy target, especially focusing on transports and vulnerable harassment units, before going after fliers when they start showing up. Meanwhile, the Tervigon outflanks and forms a cannot-ignore wrench in the opponent's plans while the main force advances as a self-supporting group. The Tyranid Prime plays a key role here as a very survivable Synapse node, joining the Carnifexen to act as bodyguards who don't really need to pay too much attention to their charge.
I've got a few points to play around with (40 to be precise) and I'm currently thinking this should be one of the following:
- Another ten-man Termagant unit.
- The Norn Crown on the Prime, to allow for a slightly less concentrated force
- Regeneration on the Tervigon plus an extra gribbly or two.
I'd appreciate feedback, both on the list as a whole, and on the viability of a Prime Carnistar like this forming the centre of a battle line in a competitive setting. Admittedly my local playgroup isn't too competitive, so I may be a little soft in my thinking, and I am wary of the massive bullseye on this unit - having one unit provide Synapse for the entire army and be the primary damage-dealer / softener feels like it could be dangerous... But if that is a concern, the Prime doesn't have to sit in that unit, does it?
I've got a few points to play around with (40 to be precise) and I'm currently thinking this should be one of the following:
- Another ten-man Termagant unit.
- The Norn Crown on the Prime, to allow for a slightly less concentrated force
- Regeneration on the Tervigon plus an extra gribbly or two.
I'd appreciate feedback, both on the list as a whole, and on the viability of a Prime Carnistar like this forming the centre of a battle line in a competitive setting. Admittedly my local playgroup isn't too competitive, so I may be a little soft in my thinking, and I am wary of the massive bullseye on this unit - having one unit provide Synapse for the entire army and be the primary damage-dealer / softener feels like it could be dangerous... But if that is a concern, the Prime doesn't have to sit in that unit, does it?
I came up with a very similar 1850pt list to this recently. My thinking was to put the Prime with the Termagants, giving it more ablative wounds and presenting less of a bullseye unit for heavy weapons. Have you considered using Gargoyles instead of Hormas? They should help to screen things as you advance and can tarpit pretty well under synapse.
Also it's probably worth putting a Thorax Swarm on anything taking the Miasma Cannon, to double up on 2+ wound templates.
xttz wrote:Nice report, interesting to hear of someone using mysterious terrain for a change.
tetrisphreak wrote: My turn i cast paroxysm on the defiler and roll a '3', making him WS/BS 0! I assault, auto-hit, but only cause him to be immobilized.
FYI - Maledictions can't reduce characteristics below 1, so the Defiler should have been WS/BS1.
Ah! Thanks for that. No, paroxysm doesn't mention a minimum of 1 in the codex but we never thought to check the BRB. I'll inform my opponent of that mistake I made.
Dozer Blades wrote:DP rolling triples 1s in melee is really bad luck .
It really was! The funny thing is it actually prevented me from shooting the DP with my tyrant and exocrine, or vector striking it. So it kind of helped him until it happened vs swarmlord.
Grimskul wrote:@tetrisphreak
Yeah, don't know how he had a Slanneshi Lord with an Axe of Blind Fury, only those with the MoK can take it.
It's fine - we all make mistakes and I messed up with paroxysm.
Eldercaveman wrote:Out of curiosity why didn't you just burrow your Mawloc out of the slime?
All he had were 2 units of noise marines that had 3 and 4 models left. I figured going directly into CC would handle a unit faster and keep them from shooting.
Ensuring that all units hit the enemy lines at the same time seems to be a bigger and bigger deal.
On that: thinking of mixing deathleapers assassins, swarmy, a hive commander flyrant, 3x spore mines, triple mawloc, (about 1530 pts there.)
Swarmy's reserve bonus should mean there are 10+ units in the enemy's face turn 2.
I think a fortification with comms relay would be better for this type of idea. Gives you a place to hide your stuff that cannot reserve and a better chance at making things come in when you need them (8/9 with reroll vs 5/6 with swarm).
omerakk wrote: Couldn't you combine the relay with the swarmlord?
Reserves that come in a a 2+ that let's you reroll 1's... seems as good as you can get for success.
Yeah...but a 97% chance with both compared to an 89% chance with just a comms...or if you're just doing it for swarmy, you're already coming in at 83%...
If you've taken swarmy for himself, you really don't need a comms.
Pointwise? Not worked out. Subject to tweaking. Probably looking at about 2k which is fine for me.
I like this...we have outflanking threats, a solid airforce, some solid mid-range firepower and a wall of meat that is a threat as well.
Reasons for each?
Flyrants - obvious, also best anti-flyer option 'nids have at the moment.
Single Zoanthropes - to spread the Synapse bubble really
Venomthrope Brood - for a mini cover bubble - the Carnifexes and Exocrine are going to advance with these guys.
Naked Hormagaunts - an expendable meat shield, nothing more. Designed just to push forward with the flying circus and hit the lines to tie things up for the meat to hit home.
Crone - S8 Vector strikes. Seriously. That is a bargain to me. Automatic S8 AP2 hits? That'll write off combat squads or small squads of T4 multi-wounds (Nobs, Suits). Heck, it'll even write off vehicles.
Biovores - Saturation of spore mines plus I want to paint my 3rd ed. babies so much!
omerakk wrote: Couldn't you combine the relay with the swarmlord?
Reserves that come in a a 2+ that let's you reroll 1's... seems as good as you can get for success.
Yeah...but a 97% chance with both compared to an 89% chance with just a comms...or if you're just doing it for swarmy, you're already coming in at 83%...
If you've taken swarmy for himself, you really don't need a comms.
I've now beaten Tau twice running a Lord of War while he was running Trip Tide , I used the barbed hierodule and a ADL with Swarmlord and 1 guard. Beside the big boys is a venomthrope, who has a quad gun. Exocrine and Tyranofex chain out and move forward to deal with any mid range threats.
The 12 STR 10 shots with PE from Swarmlord are deadly!
At 1850 points you can fit in 30 outflanking devilgaunts with a prime which come in a 2+ turn 2. You've got a 24" death zone, and a 48" threat range.
DarkStarSabre wrote: So, hammering together rough ideas for what I am wanting to go with and what I fancy painting up.
Crone - S8 Vector strikes. Seriously. That is a bargain to me. Automatic S8 AP2 hits? That'll write off combat squads or small squads of T4 multi-wounds (Nobs, Suits). Heck, it'll even write off vehicles.
Still good enough for what it does. My bad, since it's on a FMC, so, Smash and all. Actually, let's mention that. It's an I5 FMC. You can still happily chuck it into a small unit and let it chomp about as well.
Still good enough for what it does. My bad, since it's on a FMC, so, Smash and all. Actually, let's mention that. It's an I5 FMC. You can still happily chuck it into a small unit and let it chomp about as well.
Except any unit with krak grenades will eat it's lunch.
've now beaten Tau twice running a Lord of War while he was running Trip Tide , I used the barbed hierodule and a ADL with Swarmlord and 1 guard
Wow 565 points for a model with almost identical stats to a WK (in that he can be killed as easily). I'm not impressed with the model. A Trygon with Miasma Cannon puts out as much damage for 270 points.
Gatekeeper wrote: What are you all using to take out an enemy HQ? Swarmy is the only one who can fight in CC with his "invuln" save. Do you just try to shoot them to death?
Experimenting with the Red Horror for that. Being able to do challenges helps. High weapon skill and 6 attacks on the charge helps. The fact that a 80pt model has the ability to ignore FNP, armor saves, wounds and EW is pretty big.
Crimpy, totally did not parse that from the rules when I looked at them the first time.
Gatekeeper wrote: What are you all using to take out an enemy HQ? Swarmy is the only one who can fight in CC with his "invuln" save. Do you just try to shoot them to death?
Experimenting with the Red Horror for that. Being able to do challenges helps. High weapon skill and 6 attacks on the charge helps. The fact that a 80pt model has the ability to ignore FNP, armor saves, wounds and EW is pretty big.
Crimpy, totally did not parse that from the rules when I looked at them the first time.
It took a few readings to really comprehend. When I saw that I had to hit with 4 attacks and saw 4 on his profile I was "meh". Then I realized that he had a second set of CC weapons so he had 5 attacks and a 6th on the charge. With his high weapon skill that is actually doable.
Then you read the rule and it says they get one invuln if they have it and if they fail it gets removed from play. That means toughness doesn't matter, regular save doesn't matter and you can't get a FNP as there is no unsaved wound. Removed from play is not ID so it ignores EW.
As RH is a character you can issue challenges so you know you will be getting a good model to eat. Between that and being able to tank for the unit of raveners I think we will see a decent amount of them in competitive play.
I'm building 3-6 Shrikes right now, and can't decide what combination of Scytal/Rending claws and Scytal/Boneswords to use... what's an effected combination of those? Definitely want close combat shrikes and I'm thinking of using the wings as scytals and keeping their legs.
Warriors have gotten panned (again) but is there any merit to a larger number, like 9 in 1 or 3 squads with STs rending claws and adrenal glands? Seems pretty cheap-ish at 360 to keep up with Hormies or something else fleet.
Gloomfang wrote: It took a few readings to really comprehend. When I saw that I had to hit with 4 attacks and saw 4 on his profile I was "meh". Then I realized that he had a second set of CC weapons so he had 5 attacks and a 6th on the charge. With his high weapon skill that is actually doable.
Then you read the rule and it says they get one invuln if they have it and if they fail it gets removed from play. That means toughness doesn't matter, regular save doesn't matter and you can't get a FNP as there is no unsaved wound. Removed from play is not ID so it ignores EW.
As RH is a character you can issue challenges so you know you will be getting a good model to eat. Between that and being able to tank for the unit of raveners I think we will see a decent amount of them in competitive play.
I had thought Special Characters already had bonus attacks from multiple weapons figured into their statlines when they don't have options for other weapons? Or is that a rule from some earlier edition? I'm finding more and more that my gaming group has a bad tendency of remembering leftover rules from old editions that they've passed on to me....
More Dakka wrote: Warriors have gotten panned (again) but is there any merit to a larger number, like 9 in 1 or 3 squads with STs rending claws and adrenal glands? Seems pretty cheap-ish at 360 to keep up with Hormies or something else fleet.
Warriors are great in large numbers, as you give a squad of 9x all Deathspitters and then you attach a Prime to them and then you can have 30x S5 shots a turn with them. I have already play tested them with 9x Warriors outflanking with these and they have done awesome so far, and I will be attaching a Prime to them to give them some extra killing power to see what they can do. Warriors still make a great Synapse-Base for you other units, and they are worth taking in both small units, and can be pretty nasty in 9x man units as well.
So the other question I've come across is Deathleaper better or worse than 2 Lictors. Yes he's only able to be hit with snapshots but there's no synapse, and he can still go poof. At least with 2 regular Lictors, you have more wound allocation.
More Dakka wrote: Warriors have gotten panned (again) but is there any merit to a larger number, like 9 in 1 or 3 squads with STs rending claws and adrenal glands? Seems pretty cheap-ish at 360 to keep up with Hormies or something else fleet.
Warriors are great in large numbers, as you give a squad of 9x all Deathspitters and then you attach a Prime to them and then you can have 30x S5 shots a turn with them. I have already play tested them with 9x Warriors outflanking with these and they have done awesome so far, and I will be attaching a Prime to them to give them some extra killing power to see what they can do. Warriors still make a great Synapse-Base for you other units, and they are worth taking in both small units, and can be pretty nasty in 9x man units as well.
Would 9x with scytals and bone swords be at all decent? I really want to run cc Shrikes!
More Dakka wrote: Warriors have gotten panned (again) but is there any merit to a larger number, like 9 in 1 or 3 squads with STs rending claws and adrenal glands? Seems pretty cheap-ish at 360 to keep up with Hormies or something else fleet.
Warriors are great in large numbers, as you give a squad of 9x all Deathspitters and then you attach a Prime to them and then you can have 30x S5 shots a turn with them. I have already play tested them with 9x Warriors outflanking with these and they have done awesome so far, and I will be attaching a Prime to them to give them some extra killing power to see what they can do. Warriors still make a great Synapse-Base for you other units, and they are worth taking in both small units, and can be pretty nasty in 9x man units as well.
Would 9x with scytals and bone swords be at all decent? I really want to run cc Shrikes!
Haven't tried Shrikes at all but think they can make an effective unit in the right Army list. Reason I oped for the regular Warriors is that they are a solid troop choice for the army and the outflanking ability with them makes them a solid unit. However, I am tempted to try out a big unit of them and maybe throw in a Flyrant with them to make them a nasty hit squad in CC. But in this edition, shooting is the name of the game so although the idea of a nasty CC unit of Shrikes seems like a cool idea, a unit of outflanking Warriors overall is just more effective as they can appear closer to the opponent then flying across the board.
Niiai wrote: The big arguments of the deathleaper is his leadership reduction vs pesky psykers and the snap fire rule. Those two rules are gold.
But, Deathleapers biggest Con... he's an HQ. 2xFOC I can see him sneaking in, but otherwise... no. Lictors are in the much less crowded Elites slot.
If they let you take formations where you are the new vanguard formationlet's you take DL and Lictors as a formation.
and after playing a few games I think DL is a better choice (for my list) than a flyrant.
I honestly think dual flyrant is pretty much a sub-optimal build at this point. People trying to make the last codex (and edition's) armies still feel like they are the best. I think time will show that flyrants are just to expensive and fragile.
I'm finding the opposite. The ability to use all of the psychic powers effectively, awesome shooting, good in CC, the tactical advantage of their mobility and the defensive boost of swooping all for 230 points; I think Flyrants are amazing as long as you don't charge them straight at your opponent like an idiot.
Granted, my local meta might have less Skyfire and more terrain to hide behind than yours, so YMMV.
More Dakka wrote: Warriors have gotten panned (again) but is there any merit to a larger number, like 9 in 1 or 3 squads with STs rending claws and adrenal glands? Seems pretty cheap-ish at 360 to keep up with Hormies or something else fleet.
Warriors are great in large numbers, as you give a squad of 9x all Deathspitters and then you attach a Prime to them and then you can have 30x S5 shots a turn with them. I have already play tested them with 9x Warriors outflanking with these and they have done awesome so far, and I will be attaching a Prime to them to give them some extra killing power to see what they can do. Warriors still make a great Synapse-Base for you other units, and they are worth taking in both small units, and can be pretty nasty in 9x man units as well.
Would 9x with scytals and bone swords be at all decent? I really want to run cc Shrikes!
I do not think 9x with that option will be good. If you rather take some with bone swords, or bone sword and lash whip and use 5 shrikes "bare" to soak up wounds you will have a much better unit. Each one that dies only cost 30, not a heart and a lung.
I don't even take devourers on Shrikes. I trade my devourer for scytals and I trade one set of scytals for rending and LW/BS. I want my Shrikes running if they have to not shooting. I get five attacks on th charge, I get two Shrikes that will strike first and I get four rending attacks ( just in case). The unit is not cheap.
You will average seven kills against Meq on the charge so you will likely get rending and ID in there. With three wounds each they are sticking around and you target the PF or PW model by getting base to base with your LW/BS striking first. This unit does just fine if played carefully.
Warriors on foot need to be shooty. Now you could use nine Shrikes I suppose. But I think that is a bit overkill.
You are way under estimating the damage that shrike unit would do against MEQ.
Start of with 6 S4 HoW attacks at ap- At I10.
At I7 you have 12 attacks on the charge at AP3.
I4 is anouther 24 S4 AP5 rending attacks.
Ian Sturrock wrote: Hmm, so that's, what, 0.5 dead marines from HoW, 3 more at I7, and 2 from rends plus 1.33 from regular wounds, for about 7 dead marines... not bad!
It's 1 dead marine from HoW (auto-hit), then 4 more at I7, then about 4 overall from rends + normal wounds, for a total of about 9 dead MEQ. Don't forget that Warriors are WS5, so they hit MEQ on a 3+.
Ian Sturrock wrote: Hmm, so that's, what, 0.5 dead marines from HoW, 3 more at I7, and 2 from rends plus 1.33 from regular wounds, for about 7 dead marines... not bad!
It's 1 dead marine from HoW (auto-hit), then 4 more at I7, then about 4 overall from rends + normal wounds, for a total of about 9 dead MEQ. Don't forget that Warriors are WS5, so they hit MEQ on a 3+.
So I got a decent game in last night, and the Nids played admirably. It was 2 on 2, 1750 each. I allied with Orks against Sisters of Battle and Dark Angels.
Now I may be biased, but overall I think my list killed the most out of the four lists playing, and while we just barely lost (we were playing a kind of stacked mission with one objective entrenched in their line) at no point did I feel I was outgunned or underpowered.
Zoanthropes with Catalyst and Venomthropes backing up a squad of Devilfexes is a thing to behold, I can't see myself taking a list without three Devilfexes now. They vaporized a Landspeeder squadron that veered too close, put the hurt on a big squad of bikers in a shooting phase and forced them to fail the charge from Overwatch, then later in the game pulped St. Celestine, then finished her off (for the second time) on a charge on the last turn to grab Slay the Warlord.
This is my first time using the Mawloc in the new codex, and I got incredibly lucky by getting two direct hits (one on their quad gun, one on St. Celestine's squad once it Deep Striked) and the mishap is definitely an improvement in disguise. I did lose it on the second one, but the first mishap had them place the Mawloc back across the board rather than right in their firing line. I know I won't be that lucky usually but I'm definitely taking him again.
Here's an interesting little trick I pulled in my 3rd (of 3) casual victory so far at 1000. I ended up with both a Tyrant and a Zoanthrope with Catalyst. We were playing The Relic and I was up against Eldar, with an emphasis on a couple of big Guardian squads and led by Asurmen (who is hilariously tough when he has a 2+rerollable /4+ by the way!). I ended up moving in to force target priority with my Hormagaunts (two broods of twelve), putting them in rubble cover and then giving them FNP. They took an absolutely absurd amount of shots to put down. Seems like putting Catalyst on your big bugs always looks like the way to go but sometimes you need it on your gribblies. On the other hand, I completely forgot about Catalyst the turn before my two Stranglefex, each down a wound, got annihilated by a squad of Fire Dragons (six hits, six wounds, done!). Great game though.
It was Purge the Alien (Primary, 4-pts) and the Scouring (Secondary, 3-pts). Tyranids went 1st.
Some highlights of the game:
Deathleaper and lictors killed a few infantry squads to net me a few VP's. However, I did lose 4 out of 5 lictors to give up 4 VP's. Deathleaper survived. The -1 LD was helpful, especially when used in conjunction with Psychic Scream from my flyrant.
I couldn't take down any of his vendettas. Flyrant should have shot down 1 from the rear but he made something like 3-4 jink saves to survive. Warp Lance from my zoan was a bust. It failed to glance the demolisher once, got denied by a vendetta the 2nd time and then rolled a 1 to pen on my 3rd attempt against a vendetta.
Both flyrants went down as expected. However, he was so focused on my flyrants that he basically ignored my raveners. At least each flyrant killed at least 1 tank - the demolishe and 1 executioner.
Raveners were definitely the MVP of the game. They basically swept through his who army, killing 1 executioner, chimera, his Warlord's unit and a bunch of infantry. They probably netted me 6-7 VP's just by themselves. They lived because my opponent was just too focused on my flyrants. These guys are really good if you build your list properly.
I ended up losing the Secondary, the Scouring, by only 1 point. If only I had killed 1 vendetta, the Scouring would have been tied. If only my mawloc hadn't scattered on Turn 5, I would have denied the objective and won the Scouring. However, I still had a chance to win the Scouring despite him scattering. I only needed a 2" run from him....and then I roll a for his run move.
I did, however, take the Primary, Purge the Alien. Along with First Blood, I ended up winning a close battle 7-5.
I will continue to try out the formations in the future.
Yep. i just put together a list with the dataslate as well and had a test game. I'm becoming fond of those lictors as well. I have yet to use raveners in the new codex. i've been using Shrikes instead. They seem to perform a similar function though. A win is a win though. I think you play so well that it becomes difficult for me to evaluate performance based on your batreps. You have so much experrience that you pull wins out of the hat that I know i woul not.
I'm actually really proud of the raveners. Did Red Terror make a difference? Also did he eat anyone? Because that's all we Nid players really care about, who got eaten.
Gatekeeper wrote: I'm actually really proud of the raveners. Did Red Terror make a difference? Also did he eat anyone? Because that's all we Nid players really care about, who got eaten.
Lol. No, he didn't. I really didn't need him to eat anyone because units of IG infantry just evaporated on contact with the raveners. I did put him in front to tank vendetta lascannon shots. However, my opponent was just too busy trying to shoot down my flyrants with them (and the bastion as well!). It's also discouraging for my opponent to shoot at them when I can string them along to be within 6" of my venomthrope for 3+ cover in area terrain.
I think the Terror would work better against a more elite army - ones with more expensive characters. This battle truly didn't fully utilize his capabilities.
But these guys were clearing infantry off objectives like a hot knife through butter and because of their rather large foot-print, it's easy to pull off the multi-assault with them. Lol.
Gatekeeper wrote: I'm actually really proud of the raveners. Did Red Terror make a difference? Also did he eat anyone? Because that's all we Nid players really care about, who got eaten.
I brushed over him at first, but he's much better than I initially saw. In a big pack of fast wounds, he can get up the field fast and then protect the squad from your choice of beatstick character. Plus, the very threat means NO ONE will accept his challenge unless they're CSM.
Just had a great game against Tau, it was a pretty decisive victory. However, I'd like to point out A)I stole the initiative B) He wasnt running a competitive list C) All of my reserves came in on turn two.
Two flyrants, each with Devourer and HVC 3 Warriors
16 Gaunts
Venomthrope
2 Crones
20 Gargoyles
3 carnifex each with HVC and Devourer
Trygon Prime w/Reaper
Mawloc
He had six crisis suits, two hammerheads, a riptide, large pathfinders, 3 piranhas, a sunshark, 2 large firewarrior squads, missileside, lots of drones about.
I learned that having 5 venom cannons against Crisis suits is awesome, I insta-gibbed a lot of them. My weak troop list (dont own enough warriors yet) was scary but they held out against deep striking Crisis and outflanking Kroot to keep my Emperors Will objective.
Good moments: Crone came in and flame templated 7 kroot off the board
Flyrant Warlord caused a Firewarrior squad to flee turn 1, giving up first blood
Mawloc popped two Crisis and the Missile side with drones, and mishaped out of harms way.
Bad: Warriors died and Carnifex brood spent a turn eating itself. No wounds caused but highly irritating to have an entire unit just sit there slapping itself.
I'm almost happy with my 2k list. I think Trygon will stop being a Prime, there will be outflanking Warriors, and maybe thats all I will change.
Iechine wrote: Just had a great game against Tau, it was a pretty decisive victory. However, I'd like to point out A)I stole the initiative B) He wasnt running a competitive list C) All of my reserves came in on turn two.
Two flyrants, each with Devourer and HVC 3 Warriors
16 Gaunts
Venomthrope
2 Crones
20 Gargoyles
3 carnifex each with HVC and Devourer
Trygon Prime w/Reaper
Mawloc
He had six crisis suits, two hammerheads, a riptide, large pathfinders, 3 piranhas, a sunshark, 2 large firewarrior squads, missileside, lots of drones about.
I learned that having 5 venom cannons against Crisis suits is awesome, I insta-gibbed a lot of them. My weak troop list (dont own enough warriors yet) was scary but they held out against deep striking Crisis and outflanking Kroot to keep my Emperors Will objective.
Good moments: Crone came in and flame templated 7 kroot off the board
Flyrant Warlord caused a Firewarrior squad to flee turn 1, giving up first blood
Mawloc popped two Crisis and the Missile side with drones, and mishaped out of harms way.
Bad: Warriors died and Carnifex brood spent a turn eating itself. No wounds caused but highly irritating to have an entire unit just sit there slapping itself.
I'm almost happy with my 2k list. I think Trygon will stop being a Prime, there will be outflanking Warriors, and maybe thats all I will change.
How have those HVC been serving you?
I'm going to buy three Carnifex in the not too distant future, and am torn between two sets of Devourers, and one set of Devourers and an HVC, and am looking for feedback on firing off three HVC from the same unit. It sounds effective, and like a reasonably way of stripping hull points...
To answer the question, I'm really liking 3xHVC in the carnifexes plus the two from Tyrants in a TAC list. Obviously Stranglethorn would be cool for some armies,but two get turn 1 shooting of the vehicle killing kind on the units that HAVE to foot slog, I'm digging it. Plus its AP4 on infantry and still 18 devourer shots once they get in range. I feel like I get way more bang for my buck this way.
I'm with lechine on the HVCs. Being able to ID T4, along with the ranged threat starting turn 1 make HVCs worthwhile choices. They pair well with onslaught on carnifexes too.
Maybe there's no right answer when it comes to what ranged weapons to give Carnifexes. Maybe... I know it's a weird thought, but maybe GW got the balance right. It might just have been by accident.
My own inclination is Brainleech Devourers all the way. If out of range, run. But I can absolutely see a case for Devourers/Stranglethorn, or Devourers/Venom, depending on the threats you anticipate, and what else you have to deal with them.
PrinceRaven wrote: On HVCs: I'd rather deal no damage turn 1 and have fantastic damage output turn 2 than mediocre damage output turn 1 and decent damage output turn 2.
Agreed. This is my preference as well.
This is how I see the two. When you take 2x TL-D's for your fexes, you move/run 1 turn and then you will most likely be in range to shoot on T2. Now you have higher output because you put out 12 shots per fex.
With the HVC/stranglethorn, you move up slowly and then you shoot. You do have the potential to kill a vehicle on T1, but overall, your damage output would generally be lower on T2 and onwards.
However, here's the difference. Let's say you go up against Tau. With the HVC/Strangler loadout, you fire on T1, say, 3 pie plates. Your opponent then ignores your fexes for a turn because they are so slow and fire at the rest of your army. You then move up again and fire. Now your opponent gets 2 turns to fire at your army. Basically what happens is that you end up attacking in waves (unless you have Onslaught in your army). Because the fexes are moving only 6" per tun, Tau can ignore them for 2 or even 3 turns to focus down on your other threats. The Tau loves armies that attack in waves as it gives them more time to shoot down the enemy. The damage output of 3 pie plates is nothing against them, at least not compared to how much firepower they can throw down your way.
However, with the dakkafexes, you run on T1 and on T2, you could potentially move forwards 18". Not only is your firepower much greater once you get into range, but now you are an assault threat that your Tau opponent just cannot ignore. Now they've got to deal with your flyrants, dakkafexes and whatever else fast threats are at their doorsteps. This type of build works better IMO because now you are able to overload your opponent with almost your entire army all at once. So you sacrifice 1st turn firepower for better positioning with the dakkafexes and also better long-term shooting as well.
tetrisphreak wrote: Nothing dissuades an eldar spammer from discharging his broken serpent shields like the threat of multiple s9 shooting attacks.
As a mechdar player myself, I'm not dissuaded one bit. Actually, I laugh at a paltry 3 S9 blast, especially since with Holo-fields, I am most likely getting 4+ cover. And if bugs are going first, then those S9 shots can only glance as I haven't used my serpent shield yet.
I'm more happy that you're walking your fexes and firing those blasts. That just gives me a little extra breathing room to kill the more immediate threats and to deal with the slower fexes later.
Just curious here. Riptides are a pain for Nids to deal with. Has anyone used pinning tests (horror on broodlords) with the deathleaper assassin squad to try and pull this off? I know the -1 does not stack. Is it just too unlikely to succeed? It would be LD 8 for the test. I also need to remember to position myself to fire off my flesh hooks more effectively next game. Five Lictors and Deathleaper actually have a nice number of S8 shots and you can DS them accurately as well.
Just ran a list tonight with a ton of strangle fexes and barbed stranglers...it feels nice to out range the bulk of tau.
I went second and didn't lose a model turn one...my own "alpha strike" was quite devastating to tau infantry...and as tau have so few scoring units in most lists...I was just able to stay put on my side of the board for the remainder of the game.
If I had been running Devourers...my fexes would have run head first into broadside/riptide fire with ought getting a chance to nuke fire warriors and kroot.
I really hate not running a second gun on the fex, but I find those points are often wasted...versus centurions who also had to walk to me...I was wishing my fexes were just adrenal/strangle.
As for venoms...I run two...and the are without a doubt the most worthwhile 90 points I have ever spent on anything in this game.
I don't know about anyone else...but I love our psychic table...I always get excited no matter what I roll.
JY2...would you recommend combat shrikes? And if so...would you just leave it at rending? (I just found 18 unbuilt warriors in my sprues box)
PrinceRaven wrote: On HVCs: I'd rather deal no damage turn 1 and have fantastic damage output turn 2 than mediocre damage output turn 1 and decent damage output turn 2.
Agreed. This is my preference as well.
This is how I see the two. When you take 2x TL-D's for your fexes, you move/run 1 turn and then you will most likely be in range to shoot on T2. Now you have higher output because you put out 12 shots per fex.
With the HVC/stranglethorn, you move up slowly and then you shoot. You do have the potential to kill a vehicle on T1, but overall, your damage output would generally be lower on T2 and onwards.
However, here's the difference. Let's say you go up against Tau. With the HVC/Strangler loadout, you fire on T1, say, 3 pie plates. Your opponent then ignores your fexes for a turn because they are so slow and fire at the rest of your army. You then move up again and fire. Now your opponent gets 2 turns to fire at your army. Basically what happens is that you end up attacking in waves (unless you have Onslaught in your army). Because the fexes are moving only 6" per tun, Tau can ignore them for 2 or even 3 turns to focus down on your other threats. The Tau loves armies that attack in waves as it gives them more time to shoot down the enemy. The damage output of 3 pie plates is nothing against them, at least not compared to how much firepower they can throw down your way.
However, with the dakkafexes, you run on T1 and on T2, you could potentially move forwards 18". Not only is your firepower much greater once you get into range, but now you are an assault threat that your Tau opponent just cannot ignore. Now they've got to deal with your flyrants, dakkafexes and whatever else fast threats are at their doorsteps. This type of build works better IMO because now you are able to overload your opponent with almost your entire army all at once. So you sacrifice 1st turn firepower for better positioning with the dakkafexes and also better long-term shooting as well.
tetrisphreak wrote: Nothing dissuades an eldar spammer from discharging his broken serpent shields like the threat of multiple s9 shooting attacks.
As a mechdar player myself, I'm not dissuaded one bit. Actually, I laugh at a paltry 3 S9 blast, especially since with Holo-fields, I am most likely getting 4+ cover. And if bugs are going first, then those S9 shots can only glance as I haven't used my serpent shield yet.
I'm more happy that you're walking your fexes and firing those blasts. That just gives me a little extra breathing room to kill the more immediate threats and to deal with the slower fexes later.
I'm wondering what your thoughts are on an army that may not need to close - a shooty Tyranid list, if you like. The bugs are definitely easy to take apart in waves, but what if they don't care to get in close?
I've had good luck with this theory, but I'm not in a terribly competitive environment. I like to see Tyranids as a blast/large blast/template spam army, which can hold itself in CC against almost anything, and with that in mind I prefer to avoid closing (!).
Granted, it is not competitive against flyer spam, and those jink saves of yours would be frustrating , but if you think about it... taking as many of these types of guns possible (7-9 stranglethorn cannons, a few harpies with twin-linked HVCs) might be very viable especially if you surprise your opponents with the gunline tactic. By the time they realize they need to come to you, it could well be too late.
What do you guys think?
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ductvader wrote: Just ran a list tonight with a ton of strangle fexes and barbed stranglers...it feels nice to out range the bulk of tau.
I went second and didn't lose a model turn one...my own "alpha strike" was quite devastating to tau infantry...and as tau have so few scoring units in most lists...I was just able to stay put on my side of the board for the remainder of the game.
If I had been running Devourers...my fexes would have run head first into broadside/riptide fire with ought getting a chance to nuke fire warriors and kroot.
I really hate not running a second gun on the fex, but I find those points are often wasted...versus centurions who also had to walk to me...I was wishing my fexes were just adrenal/strangle.
As for venoms...I run two...and the are without a doubt the most worthwhile 90 points I have ever spent on anything in this game.
I don't know about anyone else...but I love our psychic table...I always get excited no matter what I roll.
JY2...would you recommend combat shrikes? And if so...would you just leave it at rending? (I just found 18 unbuilt warriors in my sprues box)
This is what I'm talking about! It really seems to work well.
I dunno about jy2, but in my experience Tyranids don't have the sort of long ranged damage output to rely on gunline tactics. I see the strength of codex lying in mid/close-ranged shooting then assault. Long ranged units have their place as support, but I wouldn't make it the main focus of a list.
PrinceRaven wrote: I dunno about jy2, but in my experience Tyranids don't have the sort of long ranged damage output to rely on gunline tactics. I see the strength of codex lying in mid/close-ranged shooting then assault. Long ranged units have their place as support, but I wouldn't make it the main focus of a list.
It's not really about gun line tactics...it's more about making the enemy come to you on your terms or at the very least with a mitigated force so that you mid/long range shooting and assault goes off at greater effect...strangle flexes for me have meant the gun line armies (or anything with plasma) has to come into your danger zone.
PrinceRaven wrote: I dunno about jy2, but in my experience Tyranids don't have the sort of long ranged damage output to rely on gunline tactics. I see the strength of codex lying in mid/close-ranged shooting then assault. Long ranged units have their place as support, but I wouldn't make it the main focus of a list.
It's not really about gun line tactics...it's more about making the enemy come to you on your terms or at the very least with a mitigated force so that you mid/long range shooting and assault goes off at greater effect...strangle flexes for me have meant the gun line armies (or anything with plasma) has to come into your danger zone.
It's about inflicting damage on the enemy while they're inflicting damage on you. If there's no ranged component or super speed, you end up losing more and more units while the for stays unharmed. Diminishing returns make the game very hard to win.
And regardless of the shooting option I give my fexes adrenal glands and onslaught are mandatory as well.
Here is my philosophy with regards to the HVC's and stranglethorns, especially with regards to putting them on our carnifexes. I shall hereby call the 2x TL-devourer fexes the "dakkafexes" whereas the fexes wtih HVC/stranglethorns + devourers the "gunfexes".
Keep in mind that I tend to look at things from a more competitive perspective. When I look at the viability of an army....no, when I look at the viability of an army to be able to compete against other competitive armies, I don't just look at how well they can do against "normal" armies. Rather, I look at how well they can potentially do against the more competitive armies. Thus, I look at how they will fare against the likes of Tau, Eldar and Necrons (and perhaps even marine armies like the White Scars bikers).
The HVC/stranglethorn and gunfexes are decent against the majority of the armies out there. However, they are just not efficient enough against the "top-tier" tournament army builds. Most top-tier builds just don't care about them.
Most of the top lists hide their infantry. Tau will either run suits that can jump behind LOS-blocking terrain, outflanking kroots who will start off in reserves or mech up their fire warriors. There are some Tau builds that still run fire warrior-heavy builds (i.e. the Tau "pulse-bomb"), however, these builds are now dwindling in favor of troop denial lists (i.e. the units that start off in reserves or in transports). Then most of the time when these troops come in, they just hide behind LOS-blocking terrain.
Eldar mainly run jetbike troops who start off in reserves and hide....or they run guys in wave serpents. Wave serpents just don't care because most of them will be getting 4+ cover when they move or if bugs are going first, you can only glance them because they haven't used their serpent shields yet. In any case, it takes quantity of shots to deal with these types of lists and HVC's/stranglethorns just doesn't have it.
Necrons have troops in flyers or in ghost arks. They just don't respect blasts.
Most top-tier lists just don't care that much about the pinning effects of stranglethorns and/or biovores. Wraiths, daemons, wraithknights, fearless units and bikers just can't be pinned. Now riptides and broadsides are somewhat more vulnerable to the pinning effects of these guns, but first they have to fail their 2+ saves. Then on top of that, an Ethereal in the vicinity can and will give them stubborn LD10 for pinning tests.
It just takes volume-of-fire to deal with the top armies. Brainleech devourers can give you the volume you need, albeit at a lower strength, but HVC's/stranglethorns just cannot produce the VoF that is necessary to deal with those armies. You will lose a ranged fire-fight against the likes of competitive Tau or Eldar. They are just much more efficient shooters than bugs can ever hope to be.
Against the top-tier armies, gunfexes and HVC's/stranglethorns (unless they are mounted on harpies) just encourages you to attack in waves. Unless you have Onslaught in your army, the gunfexes will walk and shoot, walk and shoot. They are slow. Now this is not necessarily bad against most armies, but against the likes of Tau, eldar or other really shooty builds, it is almost like signing your own death warrant. These armies want you to attack in waves. It just gives them more time to shoot down your army. Let's ignore those gunfexes for now and deal with his flyrants who are a much bigger threat. After that, then we can deal with those fexes. Hey, yeah, we'll be giving them 1 extra turn of shooting. That's only an additional 3 S9 small blasts or 3 S6 large blasts. However, this gives our guns another turn to fire 36 S6 rending shots + 60 S5 pulse shots!
Shooting is important. However, against the top-tier armies, mobility is arguably more important. You need to get to their lines and you need to overload them. The best balance between the 2 is shooting on a mobile platform. That's why I prefer shooting on the flyrants, psychic-heavy tyranids for more chances at Catalyst and Onslaught and tyranid flyers, who while not great shooters, have the mobility to force the opponent to have to deal with them.
felixcat wrote: Just curious here. Riptides are a pain for Nids to deal with. Has anyone used pinning tests (horror on broodlords) with the deathleaper assassin squad to try and pull this off? I know the -1 does not stack. Is it just too unlikely to succeed? It would be LD 8 for the test. I also need to remember to position myself to fire off my flesh hooks more effectively next game. Five Lictors and Deathleaper actually have a nice number of S8 shots and you can DS them accurately as well.
It's a risky strategy against Tau. Firstly, if he has an Ethereal in the army, he can make the army practically a stubborn LD10. That means the modifiers will not work.
Secondly, I believe markerlights can be used to increase the BS of snapshots. Thus, even if you do manage to pin the unit, markerlights used to support the unit can still wipe out your genestealers, especially with ripple-fire (or with just the commander in the unit giving it the Ignore Cover).
Also, what happens if you don't go 1st? Right, now you're forced to outflank/hide/reserve your stealers or have them get blasted into kingdom come by Tau.
LD shenanigans are all gimmicky builds that can either work very well against certain armies, or which will fail utterly against other armies.
ductvader wrote: Just ran a list tonight with a ton of strangle fexes and barbed stranglers...it feels nice to out range the bulk of tau.
I went second and didn't lose a model turn one...my own "alpha strike" was quite devastating to tau infantry...and as tau have so few scoring units in most lists...I was just able to stay put on my side of the board for the remainder of the game.
If I had been running Devourers...my fexes would have run head first into broadside/riptide fire with ought getting a chance to nuke fire warriors and kroot.
I really hate not running a second gun on the fex, but I find those points are often wasted...versus centurions who also had to walk to me...I was wishing my fexes were just adrenal/strangle.
As for venoms...I run two...and the are without a doubt the most worthwhile 90 points I have ever spent on anything in this game.
I don't know about anyone else...but I love our psychic table...I always get excited no matter what I roll.
JY2...would you recommend combat shrikes? And if so...would you just leave it at rending? (I just found 18 unbuilt warriors in my sprues box)
Combat shrikes could work, though I much prefer raveners instead because they're better fighters with more attacks and they don't care about terrain. But if I ran combat shrikes, I'd just give them rending claws and that's it.
SBG wrote: I'm wondering what your thoughts are on an army that may not need to close - a shooty Tyranid list, if you like. The bugs are definitely easy to take apart in waves, but what if they don't care to get in close?
I've had good luck with this theory, but I'm not in a terribly competitive environment. I like to see Tyranids as a blast/large blast/template spam army, which can hold itself in CC against almost anything, and with that in mind I prefer to avoid closing (!).
Granted, it is not competitive against flyer spam, and those jink saves of yours would be frustrating , but if you think about it... taking as many of these types of guns possible (7-9 stranglethorn cannons, a few harpies with twin-linked HVCs) might be very viable especially if you surprise your opponents with the gunline tactic. By the time they realize they need to come to you, it could well be too late.
What do you guys think?
Shooty nids are good against the majority of the armies out there. However, it's against the ultra-shooty armies where they will utterly fail. Tau, shooty Eldar (mechdar), DE venom-spam, IG, space wolves....all these armies will out-shoot even the most shooty Tyranid army. You can't beat them in a sustained firefight. You need to close in on those armies as well.
I used to run a shooty Tyranid army back in 5th with 9 hive guards, t-fex with rupture cannon and 6 biovores. I just can't see that army working nowadays unless there was a ton of LOS-blocking terrain (my army didn't need LOS to shoot ). Nowadays, to fight the top armies, you need a mix of shooting, mobility and assault capability. In other words, you need a balanced Tyranid army.
PrinceRaven wrote: I dunno about jy2, but in my experience Tyranids don't have the sort of long ranged damage output to rely on gunline tactics. I see the strength of codex lying in mid/close-ranged shooting then assault. Long ranged units have their place as support, but I wouldn't make it the main focus of a list.
I see this as well.
Tyranids work best then they are advancing and applying pressure, all the while shooting. Against some armies - especially the very shooty ones - the only difference is that they need to be able to advance upfield much faster.....anything to minimize the return fire from the enemy.
PrinceRaven wrote: I dunno about jy2, but in my experience Tyranids don't have the sort of long ranged damage output to rely on gunline tactics. I see the strength of codex lying in mid/close-ranged shooting then assault. Long ranged units have their place as support, but I wouldn't make it the main focus of a list.
It's not really about gun line tactics...it's more about making the enemy come to you on your terms or at the very least with a mitigated force so that you mid/long range shooting and assault goes off at greater effect...strangle flexes for me have meant the gun line armies (or anything with plasma) has to come into your danger zone.
The only problem is that some armies don't need to come to you. Tyranids just cannot match many of these armies in terms of long-range firepower.
Firstly, if he has an Ethereal in the army, he can make the army practically a stubborn LD10. That means the modifiers will not work.
Except that if he has an Ethereal you can use the Deathleaper to make his LD D3 less and really screw him over. He now has all those units that MUST use the Ethereal's LD. And then you get the -1 on top from the dataslate (just not on the Ethereal). So units near the Ethereal would have an average of LD 7 - or am I misreading the rule?
Well, don't have my codex with me, but it depends on whether they must or they may use his LD. Usually, the rules for LD tells you to use the highest, thus if the "other" unit's LD is lower, then you'd use your own, but that really depends on what the codex says. As for Stubborn, the Ethereal can give all units within 12" the USR. Thus, that should negate the -1 penalty.
Combat shrikes could work, though I much prefer raveners instead because they're better fighters with more attacks and they don't care about terrain. But if I ran combat shrikes, I'd just give them rending claws and that's it.
overall a very thoughtful post and thanks!
however I don't understand why you prefer raveners - they've got one higher initiative and armour save but they don't have more attacks (you can swap the shrike's devourers for scything talons at no cost) and they don't give synapse, cant take adrenal glands/toxin sacs/flesh hooks. Flesh hooks, fleet and synapse win that one for me.
I admit the red terror is quite cool but it doubles the cost of a basic unit
What, they actually have a better save than shrikes? Don't have my codex with me, but I've been playing them with 5+ saves.
As for the devourers, I'd rather keep them. Shooting is an advantage of shrikes over raveners. Raveners have to pay for their shooting.
As for all the other upgrades, now you're making the shrikes much too bloated. My philosophy is just to keep them as cheap as posssible and instead, take more of them.
In any case, this is going to boil down more to self-preference more than anything else. Both have their strengths and both are usable. It's just more which do you like better.
jy2 wrote: What, they actually have a better save than shrikes? Don't have my codex with me, but I've been playing them with 5+ saves.
As for the devourers, I'd rather keep them. Shooting is an advantage of shrikes over raveners. Raveners have to pay for their shooting.
As for all the other upgrades, now you're making the shrikes much too bloated. My philosophy is just to keep them as cheap as posssible and instead, take more of them.
In any case, this is going to boil down more to self-preference more than anything else. Both have their strengths and both are usable. It's just more which do you like better.
Fair play, it's all theoretical for me anyway - just choosing what to buy! Keep 'em cheap is probably the way
I don't know why I thought they had a 4+ save, it's a 5+ as you've been playing.
Noctem wrote: I'm building 3-6 Shrikes right now, and can't decide what combination of Scytal/Rending claws and Scytal/Boneswords to use... what's an effected combination of those? Definitely want close combat shrikes and I'm thinking of using the wings as scytals and keeping their legs.
Noctem wrote: I'm building 3-6 Shrikes right now, and can't decide what combination of Scytal/Rending claws and Scytal/Boneswords to use... what's an effected combination of those? Definitely want close combat shrikes and I'm thinking of using the wings as scytals and keeping their legs.
Scytal/boneswords is much too expensive for my taste. I'd definitely go with scytal/rending claws instead.
Noctem wrote: I'm building 3-6 Shrikes right now, and can't decide what combination of Scytal/Rending claws and Scytal/Boneswords to use... what's an effected combination of those? Definitely want close combat shrikes and I'm thinking of using the wings as scytals and keeping their legs.
what are you using for the wings?
Probably one of the more cost-effective ways to do it is to clip off some of the wings from the gargoyles.
Noctem wrote: I'm building 3-6 Shrikes right now, and can't decide what combination of Scytal/Rending claws and Scytal/Boneswords to use... what's an effected combination of those? Definitely want close combat shrikes and I'm thinking of using the wings as scytals and keeping their legs.
Im starting to phase out my little critters. Here is a list I'll be playing sometime this week against the wife's Eldau list. I'll be proxying the Harpy, one warrior, and termas for hormas as I dont own these models yet and she'll be proxying a Wraithknight.
2000pts
Two Flyrants with HVC and Devourer each
Venomthrope
10 Hormagaunt
11 Hormagaunt
4 Warriors w/devourers and barbed strangler
Harpy
Crone
Crone
Carnifex x3 each HVC and Devourer
Mawloc
Trygon w/Toxin
Low on synapse, yea, but with units that dont really suffer all that much without it. I'm going to try the strategy of if Its not Catalyst or Onslaught I'll take a Primaris and keep my synapse bubbles larger. Hormagants are sprinting forward, warriors hunker down. An alternative to this list is easily just losing a carnifex and adding in a ton more gribblies or zoanthrope broods, which is certainly an idea worth considering.
1) Pressure is key. Giving your opponents hard choices at every shooting and assault phase.
2) The flyers are good for their points but very fragile.
3) I've got a bit of a love-hate with mawlocs. They can be excellent and 2 mawlocs popping up at the right time can be game winning, however i've found too often they fail or you have bad dice and they end up taking the pressure off. I've been using 2 exocrines as a very steady shooting platform. Yeah they aren't great and their range is meh but they will do damage if left to shoot and assault for 5 turns and they are reliable. AP2 firepower is very nice.
4) I like 1 tervigon for solid synapse in backfield. With a venomthrope and bastion/skyshield down he can be very very hard to kill. The other troop option is to take lots of hormagants but it is a much more risky strategy.
The only thing I can't decide between is wether a skyshield or a bastion is better.
Ethereals provide the Stubborn special rule to any unit they join. Riptides do not necessarly benefit. Also, any friendly Tau unit within twelve inches of an Ethereal MUST use his Leadership for any Morale, Pinning, Fear or Regroup tests they make.
PrinceRaven wrote: I dunno about jy2, but in my experience Tyranids don't have the sort of long ranged damage output to rely on gunline tactics. I see the strength of codex lying in mid/close-ranged shooting then assault. Long ranged units have their place as support, but I wouldn't make it the main focus of a list.
It's not really about gun line tactics...it's more about making the enemy come to you on your terms or at the very least with a mitigated force so that you mid/long range shooting and assault goes off at greater effect...strangle flexes for me have meant the gun line armies (or anything with plasma) has to come into your danger zone.
Apart from Chaos Daemons and certain Ork builds, I can't think of any army that would actually want to come to you instead of taking advantage of their longer range and better firepower to blast you off the table.
Iechine wrote: Thought this was a cool leak. Here is one of the actual GW playtesters in action, reviewing the new Codex before signing off on it.
Ethereals provide the Stubborn special rule to any unit they join. Riptides do not necessarly benefit. Also, any friendly Tau unit within twelve inches of an Ethereal MUST use his Leadership for any Morale, Pinning, Fear or Regroup tests they make.
After checking the codex, you are right about having to use his LD.
However, his Invocation of the Elements power, the Calm of Tides, does make every friendly Tau unit within 12" of him stubborn.
Iechine wrote: Im starting to phase out my little critters. Here is a list I'll be playing sometime this week against the wife's Eldau list. I'll be proxying the Harpy, one warrior, and termas for hormas as I dont own these models yet and she'll be proxying a Wraithknight.
2000pts
Two Flyrants with HVC and Devourer each
Venomthrope
10 Hormagaunt
11 Hormagaunt
4 Warriors w/devourers and barbed strangler
Harpy
Crone
Crone
Carnifex x3 each HVC and Devourer
Mawloc
Trygon w/Toxin
Low on synapse, yea, but with units that dont really suffer all that much without it. I'm going to try the strategy of if Its not Catalyst or Onslaught I'll take a Primaris and keep my synapse bubbles larger. Hormagants are sprinting forward, warriors hunker down. An alternative to this list is easily just losing a carnifex and adding in a ton more gribblies or zoanthrope broods, which is certainly an idea worth considering.
I see that you are gradually evolving your list. Next evolution further down the line, you'll probably replace those warriors + hormagants for a Tervigon + gants.
Jpr wrote: I'm agreeing with a lot of you guys here.
1) Pressure is key. Giving your opponents hard choices at every shooting and assault phase.
2) The flyers are good for their points but very fragile.
3) I've got a bit of a love-hate with mawlocs. They can be excellent and 2 mawlocs popping up at the right time can be game winning, however i've found too often they fail or you have bad dice and they end up taking the pressure off. I've been using 2 exocrines as a very steady shooting platform. Yeah they aren't great and their range is meh but they will do damage if left to shoot and assault for 5 turns and they are reliable. AP2 firepower is very nice.
4) I like 1 tervigon for solid synapse in backfield. With a venomthrope and bastion/skyshield down he can be very very hard to kill. The other troop option is to take lots of hormagants but it is a much more risky strategy.
The only thing I can't decide between is wether a skyshield or a bastion is better.
I prefer the bastion. The reason is that tyranids need to be constantly moving and advancing. The skyshield just encourages the army to remain static, which is a recipe for disaster, at least for bugs.
Also, the skyshield won't protect some of your units like the bastion can. Enemies can still torrent your venom or zoan off the skyshield, even with 2+ cover. They can't do that if they're inside or behind the bastion. That's what you really are protecting with the bastion - your source of synapse.
Iechine wrote: Thought this was a cool leak. Here is one of the actual GW playtesters in action, reviewing the new Codex before signing off on it.
I'm just glad she chose the Tyranid codex and not the Eldar one. Lol.
However, his Invocation of the Elements power, the Calm of Tides, does make every friendly Tau unit within 12" of him stubborn.
Yep that is correct. But if he uses it he is not invoking storm of fire or his FNP ability. So I still see the Deathleaper/Lictor formation as a decent counter to Ethereal shenanigans.
I prefer the bastion. The reason is that tyranids need to be constantly moving and advancing. The skyshield just encourages the army to remain static, which is a recipe for disaster, at least for bugs.
Also, the skyshield won't protect some of your units like the bastion can. Enemies can still torrent your venom or zoan off the skyshield, even with 2+ cover. They can't do that if they're inside or behind the bastion. That's what you really are protecting with the bastion - your source of synapse.
I rally like th bastion with comms relay in a lot of Nid lists. I could not agree more.
I see a lot of heavy flyer lists from Nid players. Today I played a game against TauDar (list not unlike Reece's). I used the Deathleaper formation, btw. Now I did not tailor at all and my list had a Flyrant ( LW/BS, Adrenals, TLDev) and a Crone. Flyers against Tau are just not on. I'm glad I only used two and that he felt there were more pressing targets at times for his Ripties/Suits. He still had a quad gun though and downed my HT and Crone in two successive turns. If I had gone flyer heavy I would most certainly have fared worse. Today was my b-day actually - not that it helped me in any way. I lost turn six (with the game in hand) when I failed my catalyst roll on my Tervigon and he killed it and most of my gants. Synaptic backlash hurts. So in an instant I no longer held one objective or contested a second. Of course the game ended there.
Has anyone tried flying circus nids + Genestealer swarm? I'm considering an 1850 list with 5 FMCs(Dakka Flyrants and Crones) and 50 or so genestealers (10 broods of 5, eight of them formations) all with TS. Any input on the idea? I've never actually use Genestealers before.
Played a game against Tau and my Flyrants got the Horror off against a Crisis ball and a Riptide but the effects were negated by marker lights the next turn and I was 1 Flyrant worse off :/
I'm just forgetting the bastion and going for the Firestorm Redoubt with lascannons. Put a brood of 3 biovores in it because they don't need line of sight and embarked units don't need to take IB checks. Toss on Magos and a void shield for another 55pts for the extra BS and durability.
Now I can just leave all the FMCs at home because flyers are dealt with and work on some infiltrator/DS/Outflanking shenanigins that will keep my army for getting shot to pieces crossing the board.
I see that you are gradually evolving your list. Next evolution further down the line, you'll probably replace those warriors + hormagants for a Tervigon + gants.
Haha, I just might.
Right now its just becoming a hyper aggressive list. I've so far been left with a bad taste for the Tervigon and massive gaunt groups.
PrinceRaven wrote: I dunno about jy2, but in my experience Tyranids don't have the sort of long ranged damage output to rely on gunline tactics. I see the strength of codex lying in mid/close-ranged shooting then assault. Long ranged units have their place as support, but I wouldn't make it the main focus of a list.
It's not really about gun line tactics...it's more about making the enemy come to you on your terms or at the very least with a mitigated force so that you mid/long range shooting and assault goes off at greater effect...strangle flexes for me have meant the gun line armies (or anything with plasma) has to come into your danger zone.
Apart from Chaos Daemons and certain Ork builds, I can't think of any army that would actually want to come to you instead of taking advantage of their longer range and better firepower to blast you off the table.
Who's got longer range? The most powerful shooting right now is in the 24-30" range 36"+ is only really prevalent in Eldar and IG...and the bug cannons have a 36" / walking 42" / onslaughting 43-48" range
With the meta handing out 30"ish range S6-7 fire, a mix of warriors and a few (2-4) strangle fexes can lay down some hurt and pinning without being touched.
And they tell drop pods and deepstriking units to F*** off because who's landing next to a carnifex (that most likely has a 2/3+ venomthrope sv)
I'm not really making an argument of better/worse, just different.
I just murderfaced some marines because I gave their pods no ground to take and pounded down the hurt on their troops while easily avoiding centurion/sternguard fire.
@JY2, I prefer "cannonfexes" to "gunfexes"
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Iechine wrote: I've so far been left with a bad taste for the Tervigon and massive gaunt groups.
Every game this edition every tervigon of mine has spawned exactly 7 termagants and doubled out.
As soon as our little one goes down we're commencing battle.
I'm running my list -1 Carnifex and outflanking 6 warriors. Hopefully they will arrive turn two with the 5 fliers and mawloc. I havent gotten burned on reserve rolls in a while so maybe today is the day.
Iechine wrote: As soon as our little one goes down we're commencing battle.
I'm running my list -1 Carnifex and outflanking 6 warriors. Hopefully they will arrive turn two with the 5 fliers and mawloc. I havent gotten burned on reserve rolls in a while so maybe today is the day.
If you're heavy on reserves i'd amend the List to include a comms relay somehow -- bastion, or imperial bunker (75 pts vs 55) as the basis for the purchase. Not sure if void shield generators allow upgrades but that'd be a good buy for a comms relay, and keep all your little bugs safe from small arms fire.
I played two games this weekend. In both games, I ran this list: HQ (325) Hive Tyrant (Wings, 2 TL Devourer, Mastery Level 2, Synapse, Hive Commander) -250 Hive Tyrant (Wings, 2 TL Devourer, Mastery Level 2, Synapse) -230
Fast Attack (50) 2 X 6 Spore Mines *Deep Strinking - 30
Heavy Support (480) 2 Biovore - 80 2 Carnifexes (TL Devourer, Stranglethorn Cannon) – 300 Mawloc *Deep Strinking – 140
Fortifications (95) Bastion + Comms Relay - 95
Total (1850)
In game one I shot the bejesus out of Necrons (They only had 1 flyer, which died the turn he came in to one of my Flyrants, and 1 Mech, a Monolith which didn't do much). Necrons were making 80% of their reanimations until turn 4, so I wasn't killing them very fast, but they weren't doing much damage to me. I did put down one lord nearly every turn, and he always came back. On turn 5 I charged a lot of my MC's into assault, and failed all of my mindshackle scarab tests, and ended up doing more damage to myself, then he did to me the whole game. The game was mired in rules debates. Can he shoot at, an unoccupied bastion? I was sure he couldn't, but invited him to try to keep the game moving. Instead we ended up looking up every one. (no shooting at unoccupied buildings, but that sparked a debate on if his immortals were "Occupying a ruin", Game took 3 1/2 hours). He kept rightfully dinging me for trying to do my Psychic powers in the wrong order (end of move instead of start), but it didn't matter because I was winning so effectively. One argument that wasn't resolved to my liking was the Mawloc. He deep struck, and killed everything under the large blast, but my opponent maintained that he was still unplacable. I contended that this meant he should have included another model under the large blast. We argued about this, and I caved because another experienced player took his side pointing out that the blast template is not 2 inches wider than the base of the Mawloc. I misshapped on a 1, and the Mawloc died. I did outflank my Devil Gaunts in a good position to destroy his backfield Immortals, of course this led to 45 minutes of arguing which of them could see which model, and I ended up firing them in 5 or 6 sections so that they had a chance to kill something they could see. ETA: Just to be clear; My opponent was a much more experienced 40k player and was right much more often he was wrong in rules disputes, and it underlined that I still have a long way to go to fully understand all of the rules.
In turn two I faced an Tau player who likes to run riptide / Broadside spam. Knowing that I was poorly equipped for that, I set restrictions and he ended up bring a list that looks like this. 1 Riptide with rerollable nova charges 2 units of 2 broadsides (Missles) each. One had an attached commander that couldn't shoot, but granted them all sorts of bonuses. 2 units of 2 Crises suits with flamers that deep struck 2 units of 2 crises suits with plasmas that deep struck 2 units of 2 suits with missles, that were accompanies by 6 (maybe 7) marker drones, and a drone commander. 1 unit of 15 or so Kroot that outflanked. All of his suites / broadsides has some upgrade that allowed them to fire at different targets without a leadership test. This was frustrating, because he used this several times attempting to ground my flyrant with one model, so that he could fire at it with other models in the same unit at full BS.
We played vanguard strike, Big Guns (5 objectives) I had 1st deployement / turn.
He deployed 1 in away from the table edge on the far corner of the board, and looking at his army, I knew I wouldn't be able to do 1st blood turn 1, and that I had to hide my tyrants. Unfortunately, the only LOS blocking terrain was in my deployment zone. If I had known that all of his units had 30 inch range, I would have deployed my bastion closer to midfield to give me something that could block LOS. So My tyrants stayed in my deployment zone, and I only advanced my Carnifexes and my Hormagaunts.
In his turn, he killed the biovores (2+ save, but the marker lights removed that) for first blood. He also took 2 wounds off the fexes.
My turn 2, all of my reserves came in, but my outflanking Termagaunts came in on the table edge that was in my deployment zone. Still, My Mawloc did some damage, and between my advancing units, and my deep struck ones, I advanced my flyrants, and shot up his lines. Unfortunately he rolled very well on his 3+ saves, and only failed 3. The Mawloc did better, killing some drones, a Suit, and misshaping into ongoing reserves. Also I got this roll for spawning gaunts for my Tervigon: 1, 1, 2.
In his turn 2 he brought in one group of flamers by my devilgaunts, and lit them up. I caught a break here, because I had an arguments on whether I could kill models in a unit that were out of the range of my guns (3 models of unit in range, 6 unsaved wounds, how many die?). I caved in that game, so I applied the same logic, and limited the number of Gaunts he could kill. I believe this is not the rule, but will study it to make sure. He also managed to kill one carnifex, wound my flrant a bit (stayed in the air), and put some wounds on my remaining carnifex.
My turn 3, the Mawloc kills another suite, but one survives, and he misshaped to be placed by my opponent between his plasma suites. I shot up more of his suites, killing the team that lit up my gaunts, and taking down a broadside, but most of my blasts skattered, and he rolled a lot of 3+ and 2+ saves. I got into assault with my Hormogaunts, on one of the suite groups, and did some damage.
His turn 3, he put everything he had into the Mawloc, and killed it on the final wound of assault. Also, he killed one of my flyrants in the air. He also moved in such a way to make my spore mines essentially worthless.
My turn 4, I assaulted with my remaining flyrant on the same suite group as the HGaunts killing everything but the commander. I shot some at the Riptide with my CFex, but failed the assault. I assaulted my spore mines, and did nothing but draw some overwatch. I managed to shoot up his kroots pretty well with my remaining gaunts, and warriors.
His turn 4, he assaulted his riptide in with my Flyrant. I rolled no wounds on the riptide, he rolled 3 hits, and 2 wound on my flyrant. That is silly. He kill my last carnifex.
At this point we called the game. I didn't have enough left to do anything. I was holding 3 of 5 objective (Big guns), but his riptide could have contested in his turn. He had 1st blood, warlord, and 3 Heavy support kills. I had 1 Heavy support kill.
It was a frustrating game for me, because I felt like I had a pretty viable list, and he was running Tau without much of the insanely overpowered units, but I never really felt like I had a chance.
So I took these lessons. 1) Spore Mines seem cheap and good at fast attack, but more HGaunts would be better, because they are faster, and don't draw much fire. 2) I should have kept my Biovores out of line of sight (Not really possible with the terrain if I wanted to keep them in range of the juiciest targets. 3) The Tervigon did diddly. it is far too expensive and unreliable. I am dropping it in the future. 4) My reliance on Blast weaponry is folly. As JY2 pointed out a couple pages ago, I need to keep the fexes moving forward, also my opponent lined up along the table edge so many blasts were scattering off the table, while the ones that hit were only hitting 2 or 3 units. 5) the Fexes exceeded my expectations, but I need more of them, and feel like Adrenal glands is a good idea. I'm going to try to build a list for all 4 of my Carnifexes with Adrenals, and drop the Mawloc. 6) The bastion seriously underperformed in this game. 7) I need an exocrine. 8) I think I had the worst possible luck with outflanking devil gaunts. I am unsure if they will remain in my list or be dropped for more H Gaunts, and Fexes.
This was my first time running this list, and only my 4 and 5th time out with the new Tyranids, so any comments are welcome.
Mawlocs have a special rule that let's them deploy within 1" of enemy models. If the blast was clear, the Mawlocs don't mishap.
Your tau player opponent played wrong - target locks allow models in a unit to fire at a different unit - not fore at the same unit a different time. Also all shooting is resolved simultaneously per unit so the whole premise behind his idea was wrong.
Thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts and experiences with the new dex.
I feel for you Tag .. I also lost a game against TauDar on Sunday. I came a bit closer than you though. I lost when my Catalyst failed, he killed my Tervigon and I lost two units of gants. This happened turn six. I really feel we walk a fine line with Nids. I played at 1750 nd used a dataslate (deathleaper). Problem was my list is too TAC for TauDar. By this I mean a Hive Crone, Electroshock Grubs, outflanking ... are not optimal against a list with no flyers, no vehicles, and a plethora of intercept/skyfire.
Interesting - I also used comms relay (which was good in my list) and squads of spore mines ( which did well for me with pin point placement. Still could not pull out a win though and the final score made it look worse than the game was - it was quite tight until turn six (when synaptic backlash lost me the game)
felixcat wrote: I feel for you Tag .. I also lost a game against TauDar on Sunday. I came a bit closer than you though. I lost when my Catalyst failed,
In the Tau Game, I didn't roll any Catalyst. It would have made a difference, but not enough of one. I rolled the horror and onslaught, and paroxysm which served me well when it went off, but most of the time he was getting 4 deny the witch rolls from his HQ.
tetrisphreak wrote: @tag8833
Mawlocs have a special rule that let's them deploy within 1" of enemy models. If the blast was clear, the Mawlocs don't mishap.
I will mark that page in my codex. I thought I knew the rules well enough that it wasn't worth looking up, but I should have done so.
tetrisphreak wrote: @tag8833
Your tau player opponent played wrong - target locks allow models in a unit to fire at a different unit - not fore at the same unit a different time. Also all shooting is resolved simultaneously per unit so the whole premise behind his idea was wrong.
He never grounded my Flyrant so it wasn't really an issue, but I will remember this for the future. I asked him to show me the rules but another experienced player immediately spoke up for his interpretation, so I didn't push the issue.
Does that mean that he must declare who he is shooting with each model before the shooting is resolved? Because at times he would shoot one model, and based on the result decide where to shoot the other model. For instance, 1 Wound left on the Mawloc, he shot with one broadside, and failed to kill it, so then he shot the 2nd broadside in the same unit at it, but if the 1st one had killed it he would have targeted something else I imagine.
Relic
Turn 1
I rushed all fliers forward with Tyrants held back a bit.
Crone's fired 4 missiles and I rolled a 6 for haywire which she did not save, blowing up one Wave Serpent and killed a Dire Avenger. Harpy MURDERED six avengers with her Stranglethorn.
She responded by killing off one of my Crones and giving some wounds out to another.
Turn 2
Mawloc fails to kill a large group of Wraithguard (Would have been sweeeet), Trygon doesnt come in, and 6 outflanking warriors with deathspitters do a lot of damage to the Crisis suit team, killing 4 markerlight drones and giving some wounds.
In response her Crimson Hunter slaughters my Warlord Tyrant with some combined help from ground shooting. Her wraithknight turns to fire, giving the Warriors 7 wounds and assaults them, killing more. So now they are stuck in a combat they cannon win.
Turn 3 - so far only I have gone. Tyrant charge the riptide with 13 Hormagaunts and managed to inflict 0 wounds. Crone vector striked the Crimson hunter and inflicted 2 glances, but my Harpy finished it off with its vector strike. Trygon still hasnt come in, and Mawloc once again scattered to mishap and is now on the far end of the board, missing a very juicy Wraithguard target. My Hormagaunts hold the relic.
Yes Tag, he HAS to pick each target before he shoots anything with one squad. If every of his broadsides has a Target Lock then he can fire at 3 different targets at once, however, he must choose each target before any of them fire. Doing it the way he has is very wrong.
My planned 1850 list, although I haven't had a chance to play it yet, is going to be something like:
2X Dev Flyrants
2X3 Zoanthropes
3 Venomthropes
Tervigon
30 Termagants w 15 devourers
15 Gargoyles
2x Tyrannofex w acid spray and e.shock grubs
3 Biovores
Unfortunately, it will be a bit before I get to try it (though I have mostly set it in stone) I had to give up on my old nid list since it didn't get any better. I just want to use genestealers and hormagaunts but they suck so much now.
I need to buy and paint like half the army. The things that are set in stone, like venomthropes, biovores and 1 flyrant.
It's going to have to be played aggressively. The list really can't afford to sit around for a turn.
This is my 1750 so far. I've only had 4 games with it so far. Right now still 4-0 but have not played some of the more dom meta armies just yet. I have a full wraithwing and WS biker game coming up though... those should be interesting.
*The standard it seems. Our anti-flyer unit, capable of zipping around and laying waste to small squads or pinging light vehicles or flyers to death with multiple shots.
Hive Tyrant - Wings, Lash Whip and Bonesword
*Trying something different. A mobile assassin of sorts, leaping onto small squads or lone characters and ripping them apart. Also for Vector Striking the odd flyer that it comes across.
30 Termagants - 20 Spinefists, 10 Devourers
*This will be my screening foot blob. Just moving up with some Dakkafexes and the Warriors and spitting out that many shots constantly.
Tervigon
*Outflanking. More synapse, and the fact he poops gaunts out makes his outflanking useful as a threat to an objective in the enemy half and as another spreading tendril of Synapse.
5 Genestealers and Broodlord
*More outflanking. Ideally I want to bring them on near the Tervigon and just start bullying a flank. Ideally the same flank that the Devourer Flyrant will be flying about.
3 Warriors - 2 Deathspitters, Barbed Strangler
*A backline objective holding unit really. And a synapse bubble if something starts to fall back in panic.
14 Gargoyles
*Why 14? Because they're the metal ones and I really can't be asked with 15. A nice big screening unit, probably fluttering in with the Assassin Tyrant.
Zoanthrope
*More Synapse bubble spread. And a portable warp lance.
2 Carnifexes - 2 x Twin Devourers
*To advance with the footsloggers and just turn the midfield into a rain of massed firepower.
Honestly, i ran the LW/BS Tyrant last Sunday. In all honesty I could have dome more damage with adrenals, toxin, flesh hooks and 2x TLdev. He would still get AP2 smash and hammer attacks and likely do as much damage (considering he has an extra 6 shots as well).
If you are outflanking the Tervigon I would recommend at least a Thorax biomorph and possibly adrenals.
We tied...heavy losses on both sides. The bloody riptide just would not die against my flyrant and 13 hormagaunts. Mawloc again missed her target (3 times in 1 game :( I guess that makes up for how amazing she has been lately at the FLGS). My hormagaunts failed synapse when my Zoey got popped and ate each other. That gak sucks dudes, it really does. It came down to us both having line breaker, me with first blood and she had warlord.
The wife officially loves the Wraithknight so we'll probably be getting two of them when tax season rolls around. I really enjoyed the 3 fliers and the harpies spore mines were really cool, she missed and spawned three mines which charged into a bunch of Dire Avenger faces and destroyed them. And being able to vector strike everything is a lot of fun.
Trygon used to be my favorite unit, I love that model, but he has done absolutely awful. This game he came in turn 4 and charged into difficult terrain, I rolled two ones for my lowest, so I rolled again with fleet and...two ones again. THEN he got in to combat next turn (now with 1 wound) and I rolled all 1's and 2's to hit the Crisis suits. Amazing.
Iechine wrote: My sadness has been with his CC. In every game he has managed to whiff on hitting, whether vehicles or infantry. I miss the re-rolls bad.
Blessing in disguise - if he stays in cc longer that's less time he's getting shot.
Also he gets 1 extra attack when smashing than before so that's good.
My main thing which I havent solved is my troops section. The warriors I like but I feel like if I take two units of warriors Im super light on bodies on the field. This doesnt feel very tyranidy but I dont know if its bad either.
The troops section has been the hardest button to button with this codex.
2k
Two Flyrants w/ HVC and devourer, 1 with HC Venomthrope
6 Warriors with rending claws/deathspitter (Outflanking)
4 warriors with devourer and barbed strangler
Harpy
Crone
Crone
2x Carnifex (HVC/devourer)
Mawloc
Trygon
Honestly, i ran the LW/BS Tyrant last Sunday. In all honesty I could have dome more damage with adrenals, toxin, flesh hooks and 2x TLdev. He would still get AP2 smash and hammer attacks and likely do as much damage (considering he has an extra 6 shots as well).
He'd also cost an extra chunk of points more than could be afforded at this level as well.
If you are outflanking the Tervigon I would recommend at least a Thorax biomorph and possibly adrenals.
Again, more points than necessary. Sticking Adrenals on everything gets costly fast. He's still a T6, 6 wound scoring unit with a 3+ save that spawns more scoring units. Making him fleet a little doesn't really do much apart from pour more points into him.
Overall the list looks okay.
I forgot to mention the 5 Genestealers and Broodlord that will also be outflanking. Bad DSS. BAD.
After some playtesting I have decided to keep in the box some unnits that have underperformance last battles. I will stop using Mawlocs, Biovores, and T-fexes, gargoyles..........
Deploy and play very agresive, use the Vengance Weapons to hide behind, LOS the Zoanthrope and Venonthrope and get some cover saves in the first turns for those big guys. The AP3 large blast ad nice anti MEQ to the army. Y prefeer it to the bastion as im not using any reserves but LOS and hide in the deployment.
I've gotta ask, as this thread has been invaluable thus far even just for getting me thinking, etc... as I build my new 'Nids collection...
... Why so little testing of the Exocrine? I've seen a few people talking about how he can be viable, but haven't seen extensive tactica on his use. I'm assuming it is just because he is a new model, and thus not everyone has them yet for experimentation-sake. That said, he seems like a volume of decent AP2 fire, good anti-infantry, can glance down decent side-armor.
I'm trying to give him a go, and hope to get some games in soon. Right now i'm liking 90% of my list, and it is usually just a few pieces i'm torn on.
Right now, a minimum unit of Gargoyles, a Bastion, a Mawloc, and Biovores, all vie for the same points i'd be using for that Exocrine.
Also, has any testing been done in the new Codex, of Devilgants? Without Spores I know they're a trickier choice, but wonder if anyone has played with Outflanking in a big group of Devourer Gants, maybe we a few regular Gants to eat initial shots against them?
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I've gotta ask, as this thread has been invaluable thus far even just for getting me thinking, etc... as I build my new 'Nids collection...
... Why so little testing of the Exocrine? I've seen a few people talking about how he can be viable, but haven't seen extensive tactica on his use. I'm assuming it is just because he is a new model, and thus not everyone has them yet for experimentation-sake. That said, he seems like a volume of decent AP2 fire, good anti-infantry, can glance down decent side-armor.
I'm trying to give him a go, and hope to get some games in soon. Right now i'm liking 90% of my list, and it is usually just a few pieces i'm torn on.
Right now, a minimum unit of Gargoyles, a Bastion, a Mawloc, and Biovores, all vie for the same points i'd be using for that Exocrine.
Also, has any testing been done in the new Codex, of Devilgants? Without Spores I know they're a trickier choice, but wonder if anyone has played with Outflanking in a big group of Devourer Gants, maybe we a few regular Gants to eat initial shots against them?
My experience with the exocrine, if you bring one...bring two.
Many opponents will venture into exocrine range for a shot at killing him...but no one will venture into dual exocrine range. It keeps you on the offensive.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I've gotta ask, as this thread has been invaluable thus far even just for getting me thinking, etc... as I build my new 'Nids collection...
... Why so little testing of the Exocrine? I've seen a few people talking about how he can be viable, but haven't seen extensive tactica on his use. I'm assuming it is just because he is a new model, and thus not everyone has them yet for experimentation-sake. That said, he seems like a volume of decent AP2 fire, good anti-infantry, can glance down decent side-armor.
I'm trying to give him a go, and hope to get some games in soon. Right now i'm liking 90% of my list, and it is usually just a few pieces i'm torn on.
Right now, a minimum unit of Gargoyles, a Bastion, a Mawloc, and Biovores, all vie for the same points i'd be using for that Exocrine.
Also, has any testing been done in the new Codex, of Devilgants? Without Spores I know they're a trickier choice, but wonder if anyone has played with Outflanking in a big group of Devourer Gants, maybe we a few regular Gants to eat initial shots against them?
My experience with the exocrine, if you bring one...bring two.
Many opponents will venture into exocrine range for a shot at killing him...but no one will venture into dual exocrine range. It keeps you on the offensive.
Bring one, bring two instead.........isn't that the motto for lots of things
I can see the exocrine fairing a little better than a CC Carnifex. But for the points, depends on what other CC options you have.
I dont have my codex on me: but gants with toxin sacs, does that equal poisoned shots? Can we take a page from DE and shoot everything with poisoned shots?
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Also, has any testing been done in the new Codex, of Devilgants? Without Spores I know they're a trickier choice, but wonder if anyone has played with Outflanking in a big group of Devourer Gants, maybe we a few regular Gants to eat initial shots against them?
I've run mixed units of Spinefist and Devourer Gaunts now in 3 games. In the first game they were amazingly effective. I had 2 squads of 10 Spinefist + 10 Devourer and they killed nearly 700 points between them. I was facing a space marine opponent who was kind enough to get into range.
In the 2nd game I had 15 Spinefist and 15 Devourer gaunts outflanking. They Demolished a squad of Immortals that I'm sure was far more expensive.
In the 3rd game I was horrifically unlucky with the outflank. My opponent was bunkered up in a corner, and they came in on the far table edge. And then once they came in he deep struck a unit of Crises Suits with 2 flamers a piece and fried 1/2 of them. None-the-less they were able to kill the suits and a squad of about 15 kroot.
In my next game, I am going to try to Outflank two groups of 30 mixed gaunts and see what happens.
Using the spinefist as a wound back for my more expensive devourer gaunts has been more successful than my wildest imagination. However, I'm just not sure that relying on Devilgaunts as a major component of my offensive strategy is going to be smart in the long term. Carnifexes, Mawlocs, Biovores, Exocrines all seem more effective on paper. Getting Synapse to the outflanking gaunts is a problem.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Well, my other Heavy slot currently has three Dakkafexes in it, so its the other one/two heavy slots where i'm fiddling with options.
So...dakkafex exo exo or dakkfex exo tyranno or dakkafex more fexes exo
Keep your heavies the same at the speed and durability levels.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I've gotta ask, as this thread has been invaluable thus far even just for getting me thinking, etc... as I build my new 'Nids collection...
... Why so little testing of the Exocrine? I've seen a few people talking about how he can be viable, but haven't seen extensive tactica on his use. I'm assuming it is just because he is a new model, and thus not everyone has them yet for experimentation-sake. That said, he seems like a volume of decent AP2 fire, good anti-infantry, can glance down decent side-armor.
I'm trying to give him a go, and hope to get some games in soon. Right now i'm liking 90% of my list, and it is usually just a few pieces i'm torn on.
Right now, a minimum unit of Gargoyles, a Bastion, a Mawloc, and Biovores, all vie for the same points i'd be using for that Exocrine.
Also, has any testing been done in the new Codex, of Devilgants? Without Spores I know they're a trickier choice, but wonder if anyone has played with Outflanking in a big group of Devourer Gants, maybe we a few regular Gants to eat initial shots against them?
The way I've run my Exocrine, so far, is behind a brood of 2 CC fexes, one or two zoans behind him, and a venomthrope behind them all marching up the board. I'd run dakkafex, but I'm a bit strapped for points.
I'm liking the idea of 5-man Genestealer squads to grab objectives; at least a pair to stick in reserves and grab the one or two that are in my backfield. 70 points for a scoring unit isn't awful, they can go to ground to grab a good cover save, and they're able to (potentially) wound most of the things in the game which gives some utility.
I'm also liking Trygon Primes. Big, ugly, and synapse where you want it. Maybe not *when* you want it, but being able to pop some synapse up where you're heading can help alleviate the need to stay bubbled up around a synapse node. They're non-scoring, but I think I like them better than a Tervigon for similar points.
Still in the air between the Harpy and Crone, but I think the Drool Cannon might be making me lean towards the Crone.
I'm thinking of starting out with a dakka flyrant, 60 Termagants, 30 Gargoyles, and a Trygon Prime as a core list and then playing around with other options from the codex to see what I really like. I figure dropping 90 bodies on the board for my opponent to deal with isn't a bad way to start. Heck, if I give the Termagants poison they're even a threat instead of merely a nuisance (of course that makes the cost jump from 420 to 540, but it may be worth it.)
This gives you five FMC's and eight in total. People who think tervigons are bad really need to rethink their position. They are still one of the best troops in the game.
Another quick recap from last night's battle - (Trust me this one was NOT worth a photo batrep).
Myself and a friend both brought lists with the intent of playing another person - when he didn't show up for either game, we played each other instead.
VS
Dark eldar RaiderSpam
7x raiders - 4 with kabalites, 3 with trueborn, each with as many blasters as could fit
3x ravagers with triple dark lance
Razorwing jetfighter
So from the beginning i knew i was prettymuch going to lose. I got 1st turn, and I swooped all 4 MC's forward but he had castled in a corner, so nothing was in range to shoot (oh all his skimmers had night shields!). I ran forward, and ended my turn. What i SHOULD have done was fly off the table with all 4 FMC's to come in on turn 2 with my outflanking tervigon and termagants. But i didn't do that.
His first shooting was 8 splinter rifle shots at my warlord. He hit 4 times with snapfire. Wounded 3 times. I failed ALL THREE armor saves, Failed my ground check, and took a wound. Dead warlord. It took slightly more shooting but he also got rid of my other hive tyrant by the end of his first shooting phase. The rest of the game was prettymuch him picking off my MC's one by one, forcing grounding tests on my flyers and then finishing them off with blasters and dark lances. By the time the game ended all i had was a tervigon hiding behind a LOS blocking wall and about 30-40 termagants. it wasn't enough though because he had first blood, warlord, and 3 of 5 objectives, and had only lost 2 kabalite warriors and 1 raider by the time the game was over.
Dark eldar can and do still curbstomp nids so hard. It was brutal.
HEAVY
-2 Carnifexes (Stranglethorn Cannon)
-2 Carnifexes (Stranglethorn Cannon)
against
Tigurius
Calgar
2 stern guard pods (melta)
1 tactical pod (melta)
3 grav centurians
2 thunderfire cannons
a stormtalon
and a bunch more tac marines (heavy bolters?)
Basically, I castled up, hid my venoms in some ruins, and went to town on the 2+ cover save the whole game...I left all termagants in reserve (thunderfires) and outflanked a tervigon.
Basically, I forced the sternguard to drop in his backfield as I had 2+ cover fexes ready for any kind of drop, centurions had to walk forward to get LOS or range, because they're so easy to outrange with stranglethorns and barbed stranglers. I kept pinning marines, and when the centurions came forward and thought they were safe, the tyrants stopped sitting back and just buffing, and finally pounced and muderfaced some centurions. Pulling them away allowed my tervigon to outflank and spawn termagants in thunderfire cannon face...I promptly shot a bunch of marines and charged them both next turn...killing one with the tervigon and tying the other ups with gants squads...60 termagants came in on the board near the norn tervigon and progressed towards his backfield with ease. Warriors just sat back and scored, killed some marines, but mostly just sat there. One of my tyrants died to stormtalon fire and my other one managed to shoot it in the back to get rid of it and psychic shriek 4 squads at once...that...was the move that broke the game.
I had synapse coming out of my ears, the norn crown was definitely not needed, though it did help the gants move forwar with only one synapse source.
omerakk wrote: Has anyone been having much luck with raveners at all?
I've seen Jy mention them, but I haven't really seen any lists or reports showing what they are capable of
They've actually been doing well for me. I've ran them 3 times so far:
Game #1 vs Triptide Tau. They did well, munching 1 unit of kroots, pathfinders and a unit of broadsides.
Game #2 vs Triptide Tau. This time, my opponent was wiser to the raveners and made it a priority to take them out. It didn't help my cause when he seized the initiative on me, catching my bugs with their pants down.
Game #3 vs IG. MVP's of the game. Raveners + Red Terror took out 6-7 VP's worth of units, scored an objective because of the Scouring and swept a bunch of guardsmen off objectives. The Red Terror didn't really do all that much but that was because he wasn't needed to. Anything unit that the raveners touched just evaporated.
If you run them, give them rending claws and that's all. I prefer to run them in at least units of 5+. They were actually pretty good last edition and they continue to remain good in this edition.
Dozer Blades wrote: I'm planning to test them as soon as I get the Red Terror.
I like to run him in fun, casual games. Seeing him swallow an enemy character whole is priceless. However, for competitive games, he is not really necessary.
tetrisphreak wrote: Another quick recap from last night's battle - (Trust me this one was NOT worth a photo batrep).
Myself and a friend both brought lists with the intent of playing another person - when he didn't show up for either game, we played each other instead.
VS
Dark eldar RaiderSpam
7x raiders - 4 with kabalites, 3 with trueborn, each with as many blasters as could fit
3x ravagers with triple dark lance
Razorwing jetfighter
So from the beginning i knew i was prettymuch going to lose. I got 1st turn, and I swooped all 4 MC's forward but he had castled in a corner, so nothing was in range to shoot (oh all his skimmers had night shields!). I ran forward, and ended my turn. What i SHOULD have done was fly off the table with all 4 FMC's to come in on turn 2 with my outflanking tervigon and termagants. But i didn't do that.
His first shooting was 8 splinter rifle shots at my warlord. He hit 4 times with snapfire. Wounded 3 times. I failed ALL THREE armor saves, Failed my ground check, and took a wound. Dead warlord. It took slightly more shooting but he also got rid of my other hive tyrant by the end of his first shooting phase. The rest of the game was prettymuch him picking off my MC's one by one, forcing grounding tests on my flyers and then finishing them off with blasters and dark lances. By the time the game ended all i had was a tervigon hiding behind a LOS blocking wall and about 30-40 termagants. it wasn't enough though because he had first blood, warlord, and 3 of 5 objectives, and had only lost 2 kabalite warriors and 1 raider by the time the game was over.
Dark eldar can and do still curbstomp nids so hard. It was brutal.
Ouch. DE continues to be an uphill battle for bugs. Raider-spam actually isn't as bad if you've got venomthropes in your army, but venom-spam is just brutal.
Our best strategy against DE may be a denial game. Yeah, I agree that flying your FMC's off the table would have been a better option.
HEAVY
-2 Carnifexes (Stranglethorn Cannon)
-2 Carnifexes (Stranglethorn Cannon)
against
Tigurius
Calgar
2 stern guard pods (melta)
1 tactical pod (melta)
3 grav centurians
2 thunderfire cannons
a stormtalon
and a bunch more tac marines (heavy bolters?)
Basically, I castled up, hid my venoms in some ruins, and went to town on the 2+ cover save the whole game...I left all termagants in reserve (thunderfires) and outflanked a tervigon.
Basically, I forced the sternguard to drop in his backfield as I had 2+ cover fexes ready for any kind of drop, centurions had to walk forward to get LOS or range, because they're so easy to outrange with stranglethorns and barbed stranglers. I kept pinning marines, and when the centurions came forward and thought they were safe, the tyrants stopped sitting back and just buffing, and finally pounced and muderfaced some centurions. Pulling them away allowed my tervigon to outflank and spawn termagants in thunderfire cannon face...I promptly shot a bunch of marines and charged them both next turn...killing one with the tervigon and tying the other ups with gants squads...60 termagants came in on the board near the norn tervigon and progressed towards his backfield with ease. Warriors just sat back and scored, killed some marines, but mostly just sat there. One of my tyrants died to stormtalon fire and my other one managed to shoot it in the back to get rid of it and psychic shriek 4 squads at once...that...was the move that broke the game.
I had synapse coming out of my ears, the norn crown was definitely not needed, though it did help the gants move forwar with only one synapse source.
Congrats. I'm finding bugs can compete with most MEQ armies.
BTW, your opponent must be new with Marines. In an army with Marneus Calgar, they can chose to auto-pass or auto-fail all Morale and Pinning tests. Thus, his marines should never be pinned unless he voluntarily chooses to do so.
Raider-spam actually isn't as bad if you've got venomthropes in your army, but venom-spam is just brutal.
Yep. I think you were a bit unlucky. I've seen seven raiders not even do a wound on a Flyrant. Venoms are definitely the worst of the two transports for Nids. Tau and DE are just not friendly matches for Nids.
jy2 wrote:.
They've actually been doing well for me. I've ran them 3 times so far:
Game #1 vs Triptide Tau. They did well, munching 1 unit of kroots, pathfinders and a unit of broadsides.
Game #2 vs Triptide Tau. This time, my opponent was wiser to the raveners and made it a priority to take them out. It didn't help my cause when he seized the initiative on me, catching my bugs with their pants down.
Game #3 vs IG. MVP's of the game. Raveners + Red Terror took out 6-7 VP's worth of units, scored an objective because of the Scouring and swept a bunch of guardsmen off objectives. The Red Terror didn't really do all that much but that was because he wasn't needed to. Anything unit that the raveners touched just evaporated.
If you run them, give them rending claws and that's all. I prefer to run them in at least units of 5+. They were actually pretty good last edition and they continue to remain good in this edition.
What did the rest of your list look like? I'm curious how you were able to keep pressure off of the raveners for the most part.
jy2 wrote:.
They've actually been doing well for me. I've ran them 3 times so far:
Game #1 vs Triptide Tau. They did well, munching 1 unit of kroots, pathfinders and a unit of broadsides.
Game #2 vs Triptide Tau. This time, my opponent was wiser to the raveners and made it a priority to take them out. It didn't help my cause when he seized the initiative on me, catching my bugs with their pants down.
Game #3 vs IG. MVP's of the game. Raveners + Red Terror took out 6-7 VP's worth of units, scored an objective because of the Scouring and swept a bunch of guardsmen off objectives. The Red Terror didn't really do all that much but that was because he wasn't needed to. Anything unit that the raveners touched just evaporated.
If you run them, give them rending claws and that's all. I prefer to run them in at least units of 5+. They were actually pretty good last edition and they continue to remain good in this edition.
What did the rest of your list look like? I'm curious how you were able to keep pressure off of the raveners for the most part.
As below:
jy2 wrote: Just had a 1750 game. I was trying out the new Deathleaper formation.
My list wasn't really great, but it was just a few things I wanted to try out.
2x Dakka Flyrants (1 w/Psychic Scream, no Catalysts)
1x Venom
1x Zoan
4x10 Termagants
9x Raveners - Rending Claws
The Red Terror
1x Biovre
1x Mawloc
Bastion
Deathleaper Assassin formation (the one with -1 LD with12" of the brood):
Deathleaper
5x1 Lictors
You can also flip back to pg 34 for a more in depth overview.
jy2 wrote:.
They've actually been doing well for me. I've ran them 3 times so far:
Game #1 vs Triptide Tau. They did well, munching 1 unit of kroots, pathfinders and a unit of broadsides.
Game #2 vs Triptide Tau. This time, my opponent was wiser to the raveners and made it a priority to take them out. It didn't help my cause when he seized the initiative on me, catching my bugs with their pants down.
Game #3 vs IG. MVP's of the game. Raveners + Red Terror took out 6-7 VP's worth of units, scored an objective because of the Scouring and swept a bunch of guardsmen off objectives. The Red Terror didn't really do all that much but that was because he wasn't needed to. Anything unit that the raveners touched just evaporated.
If you run them, give them rending claws and that's all. I prefer to run them in at least units of 5+. They were actually pretty good last edition and they continue to remain good in this edition.
What did the rest of your list look like? I'm curious how you were able to keep pressure off of the raveners for the most part.
It was mainly because my opponents were focused on the flyrants (always target priority #1) and also they weren't as familiar with the raveners.
Game #1 - 2K Double-FOC's:
4x Flyrants
1x Venom
1x Zoan
Tervigon
30x Gants
10x Gants
17x Gargoyles
2x5 Raveners - Rending
Bastion
Game #2 - Thanks, Ductvader. Check out his post above.
Game #3:
2x Flyrants
1x Venom
1x Zoan
Tervigon
30x Gants
10x Gants
23x Gargoyles
7x Raveners - Rending
2x Biovores
2x Dakkafexes
Bastion
BTW, there is a game #4 as well - against Reecius:
BTW, you can find a more in-depth analysis of the game and my strategy in the battle report thread:
Used a unit of 8 Raveners this weekend in a Hammer and Anvil game. I liked them, and they were surprisingly durable with Catalyst and VT support. Next time I'm going to field the Red Terror and also maybe bump the unit up to a full 9. My gut says that's the way to run them.
That comes in at 1500 total, seven MCs, pretty decent firepower and nicely splits into a hammer (three fliers) and anvil (three gun-beasts). The Tervigon and Termagants can be played fairly carefully, as I am pretty sure that the other monsters will be higher priority.
I've been trying out a melee Tyrant in my local area, and am actually really enjoying it. It plays very differently to the gun-beast Tyrant with Devourers, functioning more as a harasser of isolated targets at first and then an assassin when the moment is right (I've ID'd a good number of targets that thought they were sitting pretty thanks to his Sword and Toxin Sacks combo).
I've also been exploring Shreddershard swarms, and have been happily surprised. Electroshock and Dessicator also look fun, but the Shred/Rend combo more or less has me sold.
I see everyone rushing their dual dakka flyrants up the board first thing, and for the most part one (if not both) of them is dead before turn three.
Why is this the case? Time after time I've had them get grounded by a lucky shot and then obliterated off the board with their measly four wounds. I get that the Devourers are a solid punch but the 18 inches is such a danger zone for an FMC in my opinion.
I view them as agents of opportunity, backfield with HVC or ST depending on the type of opponent and buffing friendlies and guiding what you need up the board. This feels easier with two or three Crones/Harpies going in first. Then moving in to aid in assaults once contact has been made.
Part of me even wants to drop the backup devourer for a lashwhip/bone sword so that the Tyrants can safely get into combat with other MC's. But then how do we effectively handle the likes of Stormravens?
I'm playing a 2500 point grudge match against Black Templars this weekend and I've got a lot of ideas going back and forth as to how I want to handle this.
Iechine wrote: Part of me even wants to drop the backup devourer for a lashwhip/bone sword so that the Tyrants can safely get into combat with other MC's. But then how do we effectively handle the likes of Stormravens?
I'm playing a 2500 point grudge match against Black Templars this weekend and I've got a lot of ideas going back and forth as to how I want to handle this.
A beefed up prime can deal an amazing amount of CC damage for the price of a stock tyrant (Adrenal, Toxin, Swords, Scytals does 5 S6 reroll to wound on t6 or lower attacks on the charge.
Mmm, the reason they are so forward is largely because the 'nid army is fast - Hormagaunts move fast, fleeting everything and its dog moves fast, outflankers, Deep Strikers...the Synapse needs to get there damn fast in order to be ready for them else they'll start squirrelling about and derping.
Plus they are our more reliable anti-Aircraft weapon in the game. They don't need to Vector Strike something to down it. They're an impressive BS 4 and twin-linked Devourers put out an impressive number of shots which makes the whole glance-pinging of lightly armoured flyers to death much more feasible (as they can switch to Skyfire mode at a whim).
That last bit is important actually. Flyrants are the only things we have that can accurately and reliably hit flyers at range. You'd think the crone and harpy...but they have template or blast weapons at range and to be fair I don't expect Crones to last long because of the threat of their S8 Vector strike...
DarkStarSabre wrote: to be fair I don't expect Crones to last long because of the threat of their S8 Vector strike...
Crones have haywire missiles that are twin linked against fliers.
Point. They're still T5 with a 4+ save compared to the Flyrant's T6 and a 3+ save.
Other note: I want my friend to sort his funds out. We're doing a swap as it were - he's getting all my daemons and in return I'm getting an equal amount of Tyranids (Hive Tyrant, Exocrine, Crone :3)
I absolutely love my Crones. The added benefit of people shooting at them and not my Tyrants is even better
As for Synapse, lately if I dont roll catalyst or onslaught then I pretty much choose primaris and cast that every turn...so needing them upfield immediately isnt quite as important, especially when my Fex gunline is not exactly the fasted moving thing on the board to begin with.
They are worth a lot more to me ALIVE than dead halfway through the game (and the Warlord point). Thus moving them in only when something has been properly tarpitted (like a RTide or wraithknight or whatever) and being able to instant kill is nice. Even better with the higher
initiative and toxin sacs letting me reroll to wound.
DarkStarSabre wrote: to be fair I don't expect Crones to last long because of the threat of their S8 Vector strike...
Crones have haywire missiles that are twin linked against fliers.
Point. They're still T5 with a 4+ save compared to the Flyrant's T6 and a 3+ save.
They have to play the reserves game in a similar fashion to the crimson hunter, they want to come on second, which is great if you have second turn, but hey, if you have first turn with bugs you're finally at an advantage, I haven't gotten first turn in forever.
That comes in at 1500 total, seven MCs, pretty decent firepower and nicely splits into a hammer (three fliers) and anvil (three gun-beasts). The Tervigon and Termagants can be played fairly carefully, as I am pretty sure that the other monsters will be higher priority.
I've been trying out a melee Tyrant in my local area, and am actually really enjoying it. It plays very differently to the gun-beast Tyrant with Devourers, functioning more as a harasser of isolated targets at first and then an assassin when the moment is right (I've ID'd a good number of targets that thought they were sitting pretty thanks to his Sword and Toxin Sacks combo).
I've also been exploring Shreddershard swarms, and have been happily surprised. Electroshock and Dessicator also look fun, but the Shred/Rend combo more or less has me sold.
I'd say swap the Exocrine for a Mawloc and put Adrenal on the Fex's and then that list will be looking pretty nice indeed.
I'd also favour 2 dakka flyrants personally.
Maybe add a bastion at 1850, The Venom would be placed behind the Fex's, if he's going to get sniped first turn then don't place him,if you are going first you have a lot of MC's rushing forward I don't think your opponent would have much time to think about shootig a lone Venom.
How do the Lictors survive the first turn since they can't charge into CC?
Is the opponent more concerned about shooting the big MC's and leaves the Lictors alone? Plus their cover save if they are shot?
Granted a rushing flyrant looks more hazardous than a bunch of tall skinny trees hiding in a forest.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I've been trying to fit Raveners into a CC rush list as I think they are better than shrikes and still fast. I created a decent 1850 list but can't seem to make it much useful for either 1500 or 2000.
I thought about thorax weapon on the flyrant for the haywire to transport vehicles, but 10 points doesn't fit well unless I remove the VC from the warriors. I do know that if I drop Mr. Red I'll save some points but personal preference really I used to run him in 4th. :(
This is a deceptive list. You do not need to infiltrate your Lictors too close to the enemy first turn. You can DS them with pin point accuracy. Or you can infiltraye them mid table and have them GtG and turn two they will be in synapse range and get up. A list like this has so many options. I can outflank, infiltrate, walk up the table ... every unit in the list can comfortably start in reserve if I choose that mode of deployment. Flyers can go off the table turn one and then come back. Deathleaper is so hard to take out when you can only snapfire at him. Do I outflank the Tervigon or Prime and termagants? Do I DS a few Lictors and start the rest in cover around mid table? Do my Genestealers outflank or infiltrate? It all depends on what I'm playing against - if I face Tau I'm not infiltrating anything to close to their lines and giving up first blood. I'll take my chances outflanking or DSing behind their own Aegis line if I think it will work. Against SM I'm going hyper aggressive and am indeed infiltrating a few units farther forward. The Prime could join either the termagants or the Genestealers to outflank too - again depends on what I'm up against.
Lictors are much cheaper now. They have so many rules that help them too and rending is not bad at all and firing flesh hooks are not too shabby either. I want to take pressure of my other units and they really distract an opponent. Being able to hit and run and then sling shot 3D6 around the opponent's DZ is priceless. I really enjoyed playing this list last game. Don't knock that dataslate outright. And btw, Deathleaper can really do a number on some ICs. A list like the one above is predicated on extreme flexibility. I don't have the big deathstar unit or an terrifying MC. I do have three MCs though and I can have a devastating turn two at times. If I survive turn one in half decent shape the list starts to pressure the opponent in all areas of the board.
It's been mentioned before, using the 5ed codex, but i thought i'd revisit the idea of a Firestorm Redoubt addition to my tyranid forces.
I went through the stronghold assault book, with the most up-to-date rules for the fortification and came across a couple nifty (i think) ideas:
1.) The redoubt itself is a LOS blocking (for medium and small bugs) terrain that you can GUARANTEE will be on the table. 2.) It is also an AV14 bunker that allows 6 models to fire out of it - this can be useful for biovores, hive guard, or even a place for warriors and dakka termagants to hide inside. 3.) The Quad-Lascannons auto-fire, which means that if (when?) the Nids get RE-FAQ'ed to be unable to fire guns, the redoubt will still hold use in the tyranid army. 4.) Upgrades: Magos Machine Spirit - 30 points to make the auto-fire guns BS3. this is a must. Emplaced Quad Gun - yes, you can now add an additional gun (icarus or quad) to the 2 existing quad-lascannons if you wish. Emplaced Battle Cannons - need some S8 AP3 large blasts in your list? for 10 pts each you can swap the flyer-killer quad lascannons for an automated battle cannon. What's not to love?
So for 280-300 points you get the equivalent of a land raider for your forces to hold, hide behind, and 4 twin linked lascannons with skyfire, and another 2 twin linked autocannons. That's some serious firepower.
Drawbacks - the automated fire rule states that they fire at the end of the phase, at the closest target (skyfire stuff shoots the closest flyer, which is still useful though). This means that if your enemy plans ahead they can dictate what units you'll shoot at with your fortification instead of you. However, i don't think many players will want battle cannons and lascannons shooting at them, regardless of the target they serve up.
I'm getting the models along with some vengeance batteries (so i have the bits for the battle cannons, as well as good void-shield generator stand ins) and i'll playtest a bit. This should reduce my need for a dakka flyrant (because let's face it - they die far too quickly.)
Has anyone else put the points and time into this particular unit to see how well it does/does not help a tyranid army compete? I'd love to hear others' opinions of this.
Has anyone else put the points and time into this particular unit to see how well it does/does not help a tyranid army compete? I'd love to hear others' opinions of this.
I usually put it in the midfield and infiltrate lictors or stealers in it.
Your opponent not being able to take control of the guns is huge.
Of course, not a viable tactiv against melta'd up armies, but I consistently run into Tau with zero to no AV14 killability.
EDIT: Personally I think bug lists get much better as you stop trying to get AA into your list. Without Flyrants and Crones you can bring the untis that allow you to hop in the enemy's face turn two and by then its too late for fliers anyways.
Has anyone else put the points and time into this particular unit to see how well it does/does not help a tyranid army compete? I'd love to hear others' opinions of this.
I usually put it in the midfield and infiltrate lictors or stealers in it.
Your opponent not being able to take control of the guns is huge.
Of course, not a viable tactiv against melta'd up armies, but I consistently run into Tau with zero to no AV14 killability.
EDIT: Personally I think bug lists get much better as you stop trying to get AA into your list. Without Flyrants and Crones you can bring the untis that allow you to hop in the enemy's face turn two and by then its too late for fliers anyways.
What do you think of the setup of 1 Quad-lascannon, 1 Quad gun, and 1 battle cannon, with magos machine spirit? That gives you 2 anti-flyer guns and 1 anti-tank/anti-meq gun with range to damage the enemy forces turn 1 forward....
My problem with the redoubt in my list is cost. I really just want a comms relay and a place to put some backfield troops safely. So a bastion fits my needs better. And Flyrants indeed have issues. The fact is the whole Nids codex has issues, lol. We want to believe the codex is competitive but until I see it do well at any major event I'll reserve judgement. The codex has a lot of holes. A Redoubt is not filling them all.
My problem with the redoubt in my list is cost. I really just want a comms relay and a place to put some backfield troops safely. So a bastion fits my needs better. And Flyrants indeed have issues. The fact is the whole Nids codex has issues, lol. We want to believe the codex is competitive but until I see it do well at any major event I'll reserve judgement. The codex has a lot of holes. A Redoubt is not filling them all.
The cost put me off at first too, but when you compare the firepower you get to imperial equivalents along with the bunker itself, it's not a bad deal. Being able to upgrade the BS and add an additional quad gun, as well as swap the lascannons out for battle cannons make me really want to try this out. Obviously it's all paper hammer for me at this point but i think i'll give it a whirl as soon as I get the model. Remember, for just under 300 points you are getting:
A Twin linked, 2 shot lascannon at BS3 with skyfire/interceptor
A Twin linked 4 shot Autocannon at BS3 with skyfire/interceptor
1 BS3 battle cannon
AV14 bunker that allows 6 models to fire
LOS blocking terrain piece
If i were taking a space marine army or IG army that included units firing those weapons listed, as well as an AV 14 model (land raider or leman russ) I would be investing well over 300 points. Add in the twin-linked and skyfire, i just see it having good potential. Yes, drop-melta and Bright/Dark Lance spam will certainly be issues - but that can be mitigated by placing the bunker behind another piece of terrain to grant it cover. We will see - currently i'm hopefully optimistic.
Oh, I think it is costed out very nicely. And indeed it tempting to use. You could then drop Crones and Flyrants from your list. As I said - in the right list I love it.
My problem with the redoubt in my list is cost. I really just want a comms relay and a place to put some backfield troops safely. So a bastion fits my needs better. And Flyrants indeed have issues. The fact is the whole Nids codex has issues, lol. We want to believe the codex is competitive but until I see it do well at any major event I'll reserve judgement. The codex has a lot of holes. A Redoubt is not filling them all.
The cost put me off at first too, but when you compare the firepower you get to imperial equivalents along with the bunker itself, it's not a bad deal. Being able to upgrade the BS and add an additional quad gun, as well as swap the lascannons out for battle cannons make me really want to try this out. Obviously it's all paper hammer for me at this point but i think i'll give it a whirl as soon as I get the model. Remember, for just under 300 points you are getting:
A Twin linked, 2 shot lascannon at BS3 with skyfire/interceptor
A Twin linked 4 shot Autocannon at BS3 with skyfire/interceptor
1 BS3 battle cannon
AV14 bunker that allows 6 models to fire
LOS blocking terrain piece
If i were taking a space marine army or IG army that included units firing those weapons listed, as well as an AV 14 model (land raider or leman russ) I would be investing well over 300 points. Add in the twin-linked and skyfire, i just see it having good potential. Yes, drop-melta and Bright/Dark Lance spam will certainly be issues - but that can be mitigated by placing the bunker behind another piece of terrain to grant it cover. We will see - currently i'm hopefully optimistic.
Basically, it's a new twist on some of my old lists.
Personally, I've always had this "Fliers...what do bugs care about fliers?" approach to the game that has never really backlashed on me.
EDIT: I know Synapse is a bit tight...
I would consider dropping a single tyrant guard on the swarmlord and add a zoanthrope for some redundancy for synapse as well as an additional chance to roll onslaught or catalyst. The miasma cannon is good, but you can get s9 ap4 with a venom cannon on the carnifexen. If you drop it from the tervigon that would give you the points necessary to upgrade the 2 fexen to have HVCs. Other than that I think the list looks fine - not many flyers will effect you too much, although a few storm talons or dakka jets could ruin swarmlord's day after a few turns of shooting. Give it a whirl and see how it goes.
Iechine wrote: It kind of looks like it will get shot to pieces walking across the table against the natural Tyranid threat lists.
Tyranids really need to have 2 types of lists in mind when composing their armies:
List A.) Will i be likely to face Tau/Eldar? If yes i need deep strikers, outflankers, and flyers - all super fast elements or i stand no chance. Dark eldar fits this description too.
List B.) Will i be likely to face ANYTHING ELSE? If yes, just take a list you like - odds are the T6 and 3+ save along with catalyst can keep you alive long enough to matter.
Iechine wrote: It kind of looks like it will get shot to pieces walking across the table against the natural Tyranid threat lists.
Tyranids really need to have 2 types of lists in mind when composing their armies:
List A.) Will i be likely to face Tau/Eldar? If yes i need deep strikers, outflankers, and flyers - all super fast elements or i stand no chance. Dark eldar fits this description too.
List B.) Will i be likely to face ANYTHING ELSE? If yes, just take a list you like - odds are the T6 and 3+ save along with catalyst can keep you alive long enough to matter.
My meta...usually:
1 Tau 0 Eldar 1 CSM 2 Ultramarines 2 DA Bikes 1 Necron (non flier) 1 Chaos Daemons (non flier) 2 GK 1 IG 1 DE (all raiders) 1 Ork 1 Tyranid
People around here don't really like to play an army that someone else is playing...makes it less "special" and fun
Also, I feel very "off" about shooting a 20pt small blast with a BS3 monster.
L0rdF1end wrote: Swarmlord is too slow and too nerfed to make him viable for competitive use.
If you could give him fleet I would have a different stance.
While he doesn't fit an aggressive role, i contend that he makes a great area-denial unit as well as support caster/unit buffer for the tyranid army. Nobody will come near your home/midfield objectives while he's nearby guarding them.
Personally, I've always had this "Fliers...what do bugs care about fliers?" approach to the game that has never really backlashed on me.
It always seems to bite me. Played a wraithwing where all 4 NS came in top of t2 and pretty much melted my army off the table... combine that with 3 ABs... 7 tesla destructors... lots of 6's = I just had to laugh. I think mostly it is the dice gods paying me back for playing my wraithwing against others. I've had simlar issues with 3 stormtalons coming in at once.. multiple storm ravens coming in at once. I have since added the redoubt to my lists for this very reason. Though, I have been thinking about exchanging that for a bastion with lictor up top manning a quad gun..
Personally, I've always had this "Fliers...what do bugs care about fliers?" approach to the game that has never really backlashed on me.
It always seems to bite me. Played a wraithwing where all 4 NS came in top of t2 and pretty much melted my army off the table... combine that with 3 ABs... 7 tesla destructors... lots of 6's = I just had to laugh. I think mostly it is the dice gods paying me back for playing my wraithwing against others. I've had simlar issues with 3 stormtalons coming in at once.. multiple storm ravens coming in at once. I have since added the redoubt to my lists for this very reason. Though, I have been thinking about exchanging that for a bastion with lictor up top manning a quad gun..
Stronghold Assault updated the rules so you can fire it from inside the attached building...let the venom or zoey or warriors shoot it.
L0rdF1end wrote: Swarmlord is too slow and too nerfed to make him viable for competitive use.
If you could give him fleet I would have a different stance.
You can always give the Tyrant Guard Adrenal Glangs, which will make the unit Fleeting.
Personally, I've always had this "Fliers...what do bugs care about fliers?" approach to the game that has never really backlashed on me.
It always seems to bite me. Played a wraithwing where all 4 NS came in top of t2 and pretty much melted my army off the table... combine that with 3 ABs... 7 tesla destructors... lots of 6's = I just had to laugh. I think mostly it is the dice gods paying me back for playing my wraithwing against others. I've had simlar issues with 3 stormtalons coming in at once.. multiple storm ravens coming in at once. I have since added the redoubt to my lists for this very reason. Though, I have been thinking about exchanging that for a bastion with lictor up top manning a quad gun..
Stronghold Assault updated the rules so you can fire it from inside the attached building...let the venom or zoey or warriors shoot it.
Or pay 30 points for the Magos spirit and let it auto-fire at the same BS3 they would give it. (zoeys should be shooting warp lance from the fire points)
L0rdF1end wrote: Swarmlord is too slow and too nerfed to make him viable for competitive use.
If you could give him fleet I would have a different stance.
You can always give the Tyrant Guard Adrenal Glangs, which will make the unit Fleeting.
L0rdF1end wrote: Swarmlord is too slow and too nerfed to make him viable for competitive use.
If you could give him fleet I would have a different stance.
You can always give the Tyrant Guard Adrenal Glangs, which will make the unit Fleeting.
As Swarmy doesn't have fleet, I don't believe that works...fleet doesn't confer to a unit.
I also like the firestorm redoubt so I don't have to worry about AA and it makes a nice place to stick a brood of 3 biovores so I don't need to spend the points on a backfield babysitter.
L0rdF1end wrote: Swarmlord is too slow and too nerfed to make him viable for competitive use.
If you could give him fleet I would have a different stance.
You can always give the Tyrant Guard Adrenal Glangs, which will make the unit Fleeting.
L0rdF1end wrote: Swarmlord is too slow and too nerfed to make him viable for competitive use.
If you could give him fleet I would have a different stance.
You can always give the Tyrant Guard Adrenal Glangs, which will make the unit Fleeting.
Re-read Fleet.
It's been a long day.
No problem - just making sure people don't plan tactics on incorrect rules understandings. for trying to help.
Lansirill wrote: I'm liking the idea of 5-man Genestealer squads to grab objectives; at least a pair to stick in reserves and grab the one or two that are in my backfield. 70 points for a scoring unit isn't awful, they can go to ground to grab a good cover save, and they're able to (potentially) wound most of the things in the game which gives some utility.
I'm also liking Trygon Primes. Big, ugly, and synapse where you want it. Maybe not *when* you want it, but being able to pop some synapse up where you're heading can help alleviate the need to stay bubbled up around a synapse node. They're non-scoring, but I think I like them better than a Tervigon for similar points.
Still in the air between the Harpy and Crone, but I think the Drool Cannon might be making me lean towards the Crone.
I'm thinking of starting out with a dakka flyrant, 60 Termagants, 30 Gargoyles, and a Trygon Prime as a core list and then playing around with other options from the codex to see what I really like. I figure dropping 90 bodies on the board for my opponent to deal with isn't a bad way to start. Heck, if I give the Termagants poison they're even a threat instead of merely a nuisance (of course that makes the cost jump from 420 to 540, but it may be worth it.)
For what its worth, I have been building 10-12 Devourer Gants into every unit I take of them, for essentially the same purpose as your tacking Toxin Sacs. For the points, you might be taking the smarter option, honestly.
After some in-house testing, I am very excited to try this list out. Need to buy the Harpy and some warriors next week.
Flyrant w/ HVC, HC, Reaper of Obliterax
Flyrant w/ HVC, Toxin Sacs, Lashwhip/bonesword
Venomthrope
2x10 Termagant w/spike rifles
6 Warriors outflanking w/4 deathspitters, two lashwhip/bone
Harpy
Hive Crone
Hive Crone
Carnifex x2 w/HVC and Devourer
Mawloc
Trygon
I had some fun with this proxied. Tyrants act as headhunters, buffing and providing synapse until they are able to get in for a kill. The shred rule makes the Reaper Tyrant particularly effective and Wraithknight killing, which in my household is soon to be a large concern of mine. The other tyrant has toxin sacs to provide a somewhat same effect on T6 and below models.
The warrior group I'm not 100% sold on, probably just 1 will have LWBS, but if they are able to assault they are nasty. A decidedly non swarmy list, this would be a heavy hitting, hyper aggressive force. Fun to play.
L0rdF1end wrote: Swarmlord is too slow and too nerfed to make him viable for competitive use.
If you could give him fleet I would have a different stance.
While he doesn't fit an aggressive role, i contend that he makes a great area-denial unit as well as support caster/unit buffer for the tyranid army. Nobody will come near your home/midfield objectives while he's nearby guarding them.
Yeah but then thats 285 points you arent charging into your enemies face. which is a massive dent to your army. I'm not suggesting he has no value, just too expensive for what he brings.
And doesn't have fleet but Tyrant Guard can... grrrr gw.
And doesn't have fleet but Tyrant Guard can... grrrr gw.
Yeah, more amazing GW design. "He's the ultimate evolved killer... he evolved to be slower than the rest of his army so that by the time he gets to the enemy there is nothing left to kill... er..."
So speaking as an outward observer, I've been giving the book some thought and would like to throw in my opinions regarding Troops selection:
Scoring is only relevant in turns 5 or later. Therefore, Scoring units are worthless if you cannot guarantee they will be alive and controllable late into the game. This is a very simply truth to the army: If your Scoring units are dead, you cannot claim the objectives.
Tyranids have an unfortunate complication in that your Troops are typically the ones that need Synapse the most. However in keeping with the first point, Scoring units are worthless if *either* themselves, or the supporting Synapse units, are killed before Turn 5.
This presents a rather larger problem: Termagants and Tervigons are durable, excellent Scoring units by other armies qualities. However in practice, the opponent has 5 Turns to kill only the Tervigon and the whole thing falls apart. Any sense of durability is lost when your plan is 6 wounds away from being completely out of your control. Similarly your Flyrants might be Synapse, but they are also a massive headache that demands attention and I do not think they can be counted on to not only be alive by Turn 5, but also to be in the right place to provide Synapse. Essentially their job is already so demanding that pulling them back to play babysitter is a limitation on the unit that should be minimised.
Therefore, if a Scoring unit requires Synapse to be useful, it can probably be discounted as a bad option.
Exactly how functional a unit is without Synapse is therefore a result of it's Instinctive Behaviour:
- Anything with Lurk can be struck off. A 50% chance of Falling Back is completely unacceptable and will lose you matches. If a Lurking unit cannot be counted on to hold the objective to the last, you are entrusting your plan to a coin flip.
- Hunt would be absolutely fine for Scoring units, except there are none. A shame because it's absolutely perfect.
- Feed appears to be bad, but in truth it is only a concern if the unit is actually threatened by the hits it produces. Unfortunately if the unit is threatened, then you can expect your Scoring unit to pull itself apart.
Based on the above, our Scoring units:
Termagants- Big numbers, low costs and reasonable speeds, but utterly dependant on Synapse. I think that with Tervigons plummeting in utility and the needs of Flyrants to get killing, this is an unacceptable limitation to the unit.
Tervigon- Big model, big costs and far more likely to kill his mates. If you assume he spawns an average number of Termagants in his lifetime, include the Gaunts he needs to become a Troop, and also consider that any Gaunts he is holding together are liable to explode, and I think he is simply too expensive for the result. He is reliable, but he also has a massive target painted on his face and a lot of turns to kill him in before the Scoring is relevant.
Hormagaunts- Feed is simply devastating to the unit. There is no other real way to do it, you cannot hold an objective when it is defended by T3 models that halve in number every turn.
Rippers- I know they are not a Scoring unit, I just wanted to prove a point. If Swarms were Scoring, I think Rippers would be one of the best units in the army. Feed doesn't matter when you have the Wounds to soak them up and the unit can be counted on to remain in place for a cheap cost.
Genestealers- No Instinctive Behaviour, no Synapse dependance and an entry cost similar to a lot of other armies. While it might seem a tragedy to relegate the legendary Genestealers to minimal Scoring bodies, they are good for the job. It should also be noted that Infiltrate is arguably worthless in this role since you have 5 Turns to get where you need.
Warriors- No Instinctive Behaviour, actually provide Synapse, and have more Wounds. Unfortunately more expensive as a base unit and make for larger targets.
The root point of this argument is that when it comes to Scoring, you don't want Gaunts because they are utterly dependant on another model surviving to the very end and hoping it has nothing better to do with its life.
Similarly, Tervigon might be durable but I do not think they are end-game durable, and they come in at such a massive price that they cannot be relegated to sacrificial Scoring.
Therefore, I propose that the Scoring requirements be taken up by 5-man units of Genestealers, no upgrades or Broodlords, and invest the actual points into units that can pose a threat and take names. You cannot afford to hold objectives with units slaved to the survival of another, especially when that unit is a big, juicy bag of points that is just begging to be killed. In the event that you are:
a) Under-points after writing the list
b) In need of some extra Synapse
Then a handful of 70pt Genestealers can become 90pt Warriors.
By saving points on your Scoring section and simply accepting that your army is divided into units that will fight, and units that will pitch a tent and sing campfire songs while huddled into a crater, you can actually get some decent units onto the field and work towards winning rather than fighting to keep your own weaknesses from spilling out.
This concept can then be expanded on: If you don't need Synapse to protect your Scoring bodies, do you need it at all?
By sticking to Hunting units, faster elements to keep up with Flyrants, or Feeders who straight up don't care about the self-harm, you can basically say 'Screw this' to the Synapse game and spend everything on actually getting stuff done.
Exocrine, Tyrannofex and Harpies straight up do not care. Trygons, Mawlocs and Crones are similarly unaffected, as are solo Screamer-Killer Carnifexes.
You can build an army that will function on no- or minimal-Synapse, and in the process save fistfuls of points.
For a cross-Codex comparison it is probably closest to Chaos Marines, where the humble Cultists is king because you can buy enough Heldrakes, Obliterators and Daemon Princes that you do not care that your Scoring presence consists of naked T3. By giving him enough threats that demand a response, and that are independently threatening, you protect your minimal investment by demanding the guns are focussed elsewhere.
Just some outsider thoughts…
TL;DR - Gaunts and Tervigons are not reliable and too expensive, respectively
- Invest minimal points into Scoring units that can be relied upon to sit still
- Spend the saved points on Nidzilla
- Rely on your massed monsters being angry enough that minimal effort can be spent removing your Scoring dudes.
See I'd go completely the other way regarding Manufactorum 'Stealers because by Infiltrating that close, all you are saying is 'Here is 25% of my entire Scoring capability, please kill it before my actual threats get here'. The whole point is that 5 Genestealers are cheap and low-profile so that the enemy cannot dedicate the effort to remove them, and instead must work with the extra monster you just bought by saving the points.
As a demonstration of the actual result, say for a 1500pt game: My usual thoughts are that you should take a Scoring unit for every 500pts, plus one for luck. Therefore we want 4 units for a game this size. 4 units of 5 Genestealers comes to 280pts. You'd therefore have 1220pts to spend on nothing other than violently stabby monsters without concerns for Synapse or Scoring utility at all. Take your preferred balance of 3 between Exocrines, Tyrannofex, Mawlocs or *lone* Brainleech-Fexes. Take 2 Flyrants, then a Crone or a Harpy, and then some Tyrant Guard/Gargoyles/Spore Mines to polish. Or take a solitary Flyrant and then 3 other FA fliers. Find yourself with a spare 20pts? Some of those Genestealers are now Warriors, enjoy the extra wound counters. You'd have 6-7 Monstrous Creatures at 1500pts. Good monstrous Creatures, not just spammed Carnifex.
The actual game would then be keeping your Genestealers safely in Reserve, maybe in Outflank, and just take the enemy with your competent elements.
Very well thought out indeed. There is no question that IB restricts what we do.
- Tervigon - I do like to use one. You can wait to spawn and see how it goes, He can be protected - I use Venomthropes in my lists and hide him behind a T-fex. Taking just one is not bad.
- Termagants can be good - the thirty I need for my Tervigon are with a Prime and you can have tdevourers on them as well if you want more of a threat. There is no better way to protect your Prime - thirty ablative wounds are awesome.
- Warriors are not bad at all. I can easily stick a squad of three on top a Firestorm Redoubt and have backfield scoring when needed.
- Gloomfang and others have found that toxic Rippers pose a real threat. It is not my style odf list but I see how it can work.
here is a list using units you discount at only 1500 points:
Now I agree that you have to be careful with the Tervigon. But with good management he can spawn you a troop when you need it. I would not dismiss him so lightly.
TL;DR - Gaunts and Tervigons are not reliable and too expensive, respectively
- Invest minimal points into Scoring units that can be relied upon to sit still
- Spend the saved points on Nidzilla
- Rely on your massed monsters being angry enough that minimal effort can be spent removing your Scoring dudes.
The only loop hole I see with this (well written) argument is that by taking more MC's you now have generated more synapse so that you can afford to spend 100pts on a swarm of 20 gants to rush up there in the face of the enemy. While a scoring unit yes, if their main point is to rush and distract then you're probably not counting on them to be a scoring unit, but they can be a denial unit and 20 gants can and will take out a small squad.
The other question I have is that does the theory then carry over to "Dont take Zoanthropes and Venomthropes" because they are more for synapse and support of the longevity of troops?
I'm not sure how valuable minimizing Synapse really is, considering that it tends to come packaged with Shadow in the Warp. Between Daemons and Eldar I really like having enough of that in my list to at least cause them a little grief. I like the 5-man Genestealer squads for scoring myself, but I'm not sure I agree on the lack of Synapse.
Mozzamanx wrote: See I'd go completely the other way regarding Manufactorum 'Stealers because by Infiltrating that close, all you are saying is 'Here is 25% of my entire Scoring capability, please kill it before my actual threats get here'.
The whole point is that 5 Genestealers are cheap and low-profile so that the enemy cannot dedicate the effort to remove them, and instead must work with the extra monster you just bought by saving the
Mozzamanx wrote: See I'd go completely the other way regarding Manufactorum 'Stealers because by Infiltrating that close, all you are saying is 'Here is 25% of my entire Scoring capability, please kill it before my actual threats get here'.
The whole point is that 5 Genestealers are cheap and low-profile so that the enemy cannot dedicate the effort to remove them, and instead must work with the extra monster you just bought by saving the
Who said you had to infiltrate them close?
Exactly. Just because they can doesn't mean they should. Same goes for deep strike and Trygons.
Because my name has come up a few times I thought I should piece together a few post from The Hive with my thoughts on IB and how it affects Nid play and list construction. Sorry it is a little long.
I have said it once and I will say it again: It depends on your list. You either have to pay a hefty synapse tax or you have to play with more expensive units that can operate outside of synapse.
The big difference is that in 4th and 5th your army did not disintegrate without synapse. I used to leave termigaunts camping on objectives out of synapse in 5th, but in 6th it is too risky. Hormigaunts will kill off just under ½ the unit 25% of the time they are out of synapse. Gargoyles and other Hunters are not too bad as they just GtG in the worst case and have to make snapshots.
So given the fact that Synapse is now much more key the synapse creatures now have giant red bulls-eyes painted on them. So you either need a lot of synapse and/or really durable synapse.
However this has led to a newish tactic I call “Daisy Cutting”. That is the strategic removal of the few models that are in synapse from a unit. Let’s say you have a large brood of hormagants with a trail of hormagants to a zoantrope for synapse. They drop a blast template to kill those few models in synapse and “poof” no more synapse. You then have to deal with the units that are now off the chain be chasing them to get them back into synapse or just hope they come back to you on their own.
Really good opponents can take advantage of Daisy Cutting in CC. They can position a unit so that your unit can charge, but your pile in move takes you out of synapse. Lose your Fearless and a lot of our units are Ld6 and losing combat by a few wounds (even if there are 20+ models left) can cause them to get cut down in a sweeping advance.
<snip question on dealing with Daisy Cutting>
I tried everything I could think of, but it boils down to clumping up. When the new IG dex hits I think that won't be an option anymore either.
I can do a post on Daisy Cutting tactics so people can be forewarned and know what units to look out for and how it can impact you but that is it.
My list philosophy has grown into a divergent evolutionary thread if you will. Multiple small units of expensive models, but cheap units. This strategy wasn't even possible a few weeks ago so I am still wrestling with it. Basically it comes down to the fact if you can make the FOC not matter then you can start using a set of strategies based on Overkill, Target Saturation and Squandered Overhead.
The basic theory of each for folks that don't know them.
Overkill states that any force that is excess of the amount of firepower used to wipe out a unit is a detriment to your list. It is why folks don't shoot krack missles at termigaunts, its a waste of points. So if you have a unit of 20 firewarriors shooting at two units (30 Termigaunts or 5 genestealers) the more effective use of firepower would be to shoot at the termigaunts because you can probably wipe out a unit worth 120pts vs a unit worth 70pts.
Target Saturation is pretty basic. More targets then they can shoot. It can cause priority targeting issues and can cause inefficient use of shooting.
Squandered Overhead is the practice of lowing your opponents effective list size by causing him to spend points on something that does not give him a proportional benefit. An army that spends a lot of points on lascannons for example when all you have is low toughness W1 Sv5 units. Or anything they take for AA if you have no flyers. Anything that they pay for that is not worth the points is wasted.
So how does that play back into synapse? Because of the forced evolution (thanks to the dataslates) away from synapse and that lets you escape the confines of FOC. My current 1999pt list has 14 infiltrators alone with 10 of them costing 70pts or less. That means that in most cases I have limited my opponent to doing very little damage before I can slam into him. I also have no MCs so that means that most of their high strength weaponry is going to go to waste. As I am using high Ld units (many don't even have IB) I don't need to worry about synapse as much. No flyers means that all that AA firepower is either wasted or overpriced. With some lists I can change the points equation to roughly 1999pt vs 1850pts based on the stuff they are taking that will do them very little good.
Gloomfang wrote: Because my name has come up a few times I thought I should piece together a few post from The Hive with my thoughts on IB and how it affects Nid play and list construction. Sorry it is a little long.
DE has always been a problem for Nids. I need to find some to test my list out against as they can just zoom around so fast that my lack of shooting could be my downfall.
Gloomfang wrote: DE has always been a problem for Nids. I need to find some to test my list out against as they can just zoom around so fast that my lack of shooting could be my downfall.
The other question I have is that does the theory then carry over to "Dont take Zoanthropes and Venomthropes" because they are more for synapse and support of the longevity of troops?
I wouldn't say to deliberately go out-of-your-way to avoid Synapse, more that you should design your army based on the idea that Synapse is not required. If a Zoanthrope is worthwhile purely on the basis of a 3++ and Warp Lance, then he should still be a good option to consider. However as a cheap Synapse-provider, who really cares when you can roll without it? Take him for his firepower rather than the support benefits.
Basically I repeatedly see people posting lists that start with a Tervigon and 30 of his friends, and simply see a 350pt black hole of mutually-dependant models that are worthless unless the whole package survives. Your Termagants need to be babysat constantly, either by this monstrously expensive Synapse provider or have secondary Zoanthrope and Primes assigned to them. On the other hand, anything that the Tervigon is trying to support is potentially a single shooting phase away from explosive death and subsequent panic.
When you compare a Tervigon and any of the other 'big' monstrous creatures, you can directly see how massive a cost the Gant-spawns, Synapse and Scoring ability really come to. As well as nearly 100pts of extra cost (Note this is before you consider the unlocking-Gants) you lose a 2+ save and a Torrent, or Bio Plasma, or a Trygons fightiness or a Mawlocks burrowing. This is a *massive* cost that I would argue you can do without. By removing certain units as overly dependant, you effectively lock yourself into a new style that has much fewer options, but you also get much more points to play between them. This is not to say that it is objectively better, more that I can see this style being successful at higher levels and opening enough monster-points that you can play against opponents that exist to kill (See Eldar/Tau).
As an aside, if you are not using them to Infiltrate, why would you want the Manufactorum Genestealers? Hit & Run is nice but it's not a superpower...
Mozzamanx wrote: As an aside, if you are not using them to Infiltrate, why would you want the Manufactorum Genestealers? Hit & Run is nice but it's not a superpower...
Because you're running 5 man squads anyways and they get free extra infiltrate rules when you want and free hit and run?
It would be stupid not to take free stuff...
Building a synapseless list is something I brought up....weeks back in this thread...and while I've tried synapseless or synapse independent lists...they're just less powerful than integrated synapse lists.
The important thing to remember is having a backup plan, oh my tervigon went down, good thing I brought zoeys and warriors...or...another tervigon.
I've been playing tervigons since the day the 5th ed book came out and only had one die on 2 separate occassions.
They're not an easy synapse to kill when sitting in the backfield. Neither are Warriors.
People just aren't using their synapse creatures correctly.
And Warriors are the most flexible of those with the ability to get outflank, multiple wounds, and a 4+, not to mention a cannon.
You're looking for cheap flexible backfield units that can put out some damage and are hard to kill from afar? It's 3 man warrior squads with a strangler. Boom: You just provided synapse for your heavies.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I've been running into Thunderfire Cannons lately?
Anyone think that Void Shields would shut these down pretty quick?
I mean, he'd either have to dedicate some whatshouldbe MC hunting weapons to killing it, or the thunderfires would have to go for the s6 shot to go for the glance?
Anyone think that Void Shields would shut these down pretty quick?
I mean, he'd either have to dedicate some whatshouldbe MC hunting weapons to killing it, or the thunderfires would have to go for the s6 shot to go for the glance?
Should I take 1, 2, 3 layers?
I've been trying using a void shield generator with 3 shields instead of venomthropes and have liked the results. What I've noticed happening is that it keeps my Flyrants and Crones relatively safe in case I lose the roll to go first. Then it provides some defense for things like Carnifexes & Zoanthropes as they move up a bit. Also, after a few shields are knocked down, my opponents tend to ignore it, so they regenerate and then late game, they're providing defense for my units that are holding objectives that are within range of the shield.
So while not as army-wide as Venomthropes are, I think the voidshields are better.
Anyone think that Void Shields would shut these down pretty quick?
I mean, he'd either have to dedicate some whatshouldbe MC hunting weapons to killing it, or the thunderfires would have to go for the s6 shot to go for the glance?
Should I take 1, 2, 3 layers?
I've been trying using a void shield generator with 3 shields instead of venomthropes and have liked the results. What I've noticed happening is that it keeps my Flyrants and Crones relatively safe in case I lose the roll to go first. Then it provides some defense for things like Carnifexes & Zoanthropes as they move up a bit. Also, after a few shields are knocked down, my opponents tend to ignore it, so they regenerate and then late game, they're providing defense for my units that are holding objectives that are within range of the shield.
So while not as army-wide as Venomthropes are, I think the voidshields are better.
Anyone think that Void Shields would shut these down pretty quick?
I mean, he'd either have to dedicate some whatshouldbe MC hunting weapons to killing it, or the thunderfires would have to go for the s6 shot to go for the glance?
Should I take 1, 2, 3 layers?
I've been trying using a void shield generator with 3 shields instead of venomthropes and have liked the results. What I've noticed happening is that it keeps my Flyrants and Crones relatively safe in case I lose the roll to go first. Then it provides some defense for things like Carnifexes & Zoanthropes as they move up a bit. Also, after a few shields are knocked down, my opponents tend to ignore it, so they regenerate and then late game, they're providing defense for my units that are holding objectives that are within range of the shield.
So while not as army-wide as Venomthropes are, I think the voidshields are better.
I was going to do both...
Void shields need an FAQ to clarify how they interact with blast-type weapons. I originally interpreted the rule that a blast weapon would just cause 1 hit on a void shield, but the internet says it would cause one hit per model under the blast weapon - making a single battle cannon able to take out all 3 void shields with just 1 shot. The rules use the word "Target" when describing how the hits are resolved, rather than "Model" or "Unit", which makes me believe it will be FAQ'ed that it's 1 hit per blast until the void shield collapses. Until then that's just one other thing to be aware of when using the VSG. I think it's a great idea for protecting vs alpha strikes, overall though.
So even if a battle cannon got 30 hits, they would just roll 30 hits against void shield one before going to the next with the next unit?
The void shield rules state that further hits on a "target" are resolved against it, if the shield goes down first. This is to say, a quad gun fires and scores 4 hits. If the void shield goes down in the first hit, the last 3 hits are resolved to-wound vs the original target.
where the rule falls short is that a single blast weapon can cause multiple hits on a unit, but if you think about it thematically the shell would impact only once on the void shield before it actually got through to the unit behind it -- i do realize that rules =/= fluff but a lot of FAQs do rule in the 'common sense' fashion. Until such time however it is better to play it safe and expect blasts to be extra-powerful vs void shields and space models accordingly.
Void shields need an FAQ to clarify how they interact with blast-type weapons. I originally interpreted the rule that a blast weapon would just cause 1 hit on a void shield, but the internet says it would cause one hit per model under the blast weapon - making a single battle cannon able to take out all 3 void shields with just 1 shot. The rules use the word "Target" when describing how the hits are resolved, rather than "Model" or "Unit", which makes me believe it will be FAQ'ed that it's 1 hit per blast until the void shield collapses. Until then that's just one other thing to be aware of when using the VSG. I think it's a great idea for protecting vs alpha strikes, overall though.
This is the current RAW so you need to spread out your gribblies as a battle cannon shot that hits them can potentially vaporize all 3 shields in 1 go.
However, IMO the VSG (Void Shield Generator) is still a broken piece of equipment that is really too good in regular games. It's main attraction for me is that it stops all ranged small-arms fire if the opponent fails to penetrate the void shields. So F-U venom-spam DE. Muahahahaha.....
If your gaming group allows for Stronghold, definitely get the VSG. It is totally worth it.
And a great reason to take manufactorum stealers...while there's an argument on whether they score...no one I play would attempt to say they don't
There's now no argument. THe arguments against are absolutely bankrupt if you read the actual dataslate. Even the naysayers have given up
Just to repeat...
In the Vanguard dataslate, it specifically states that "a formation is a special form of Detachment" (p3) and for formations, "the Levels of Alliance Rules do apply to them." (p4) It further states that, "the battlefield role... can be found in the dataslate."
The Genestealers' battlefield role is defined, in the Dataslate, as troops. The levels of Alliance apply and therefore the Genestealers are scoring.
Mostly because the naysayers are tired of being mocked and agree on intent so it's not worth arguing anymore.
There is still an argument that can be made but I'd only do so in a polite way instead of being insulted (like I was in YMDC). But let's not hash that out here, okay?
One thing I've noticed in here: A lot of the lists and discussions I've been seeing are in the 1500+ point range. How are people viewing lower points Nids (1250, 1000, etc)?
I'm going to be entering a tournament soon that's 1000 points and thinking of using a list like this:
I'm tempted to drop a Genestealer brood in favor of getting a HW Warrior, adding some numbers to my other brood and picking up Hive Commander on a Flyrant for Outflanking the Genestealers. Thoughts?
Yeah, I thought about that too. But I don't want to spend too many points on support vrs stuff doing damage. Not saying it's a bad idea, just something to think about. I've been using 3 units of 1 Zoanthrope to maximize my psychic powers and synapse, and that has been nice.
Mostly because the naysayers are tired of being mocked and agree on intent so it's not worth arguing anymore.
There is still an argument that can be made but I'd only do so in a polite way instead of being insulted (like I was in YMDC). But let's not hash that out here, okay?
Sure. I do apologise if I contributed to a pretty ornery thread, feel free to disagree with that last post where i quoted the actual dataslate wording which seems clear to me - of course it's always good to interrogate a line of reasoning.
1) Servoskulls. Realy screw with Infiltrating lists.
2) Interceptor. DSing around anything with Interceptor is going to be a bad idea. Same as Cortez's "expecting you" ability.
Gloomfang wrote: 1) Servoskulls. Realy screw with Infiltrating lists.
2) Interceptor. DSing around anything with Interceptor is going to be a bad idea. Same as Cortez's "expecting you" ability.
Interceptor works on outflank and standard arrival for reserves. I'm saying there's no reason in a standard game to trade guaranteed arrival location for a 2/3 chance to walk 6" on a particular side you hope to be at.
Speaking of reserve : the broodlord pack formation states that you can place them in ruins 'when coming from reserve'.
Do you have do declare during deployment they will use this ability? Or can you say they will outflank (at beginning of the game) then finally choose the ability when they come out?
Gloomfang wrote: 1) Servoskulls. Realy screw with Infiltrating lists.
2) Interceptor. DSing around anything with Interceptor is going to be a bad idea. Same as Cortez's "expecting you" ability.
Interceptor works on outflank and standard arrival for reserves. I'm saying there's no reason in a standard game to trade guaranteed arrival location for a 2/3 chance to walk 6" on a particular side you hope to be at.
Said it was a fun fact, not something usefull.
Honestly not something I would probably ever do. But there are times I wouldn't DS or be able to infiltrate.Probably just start on my deployment zone.
XC18 wrote: Speaking of reserve : the broodlord pack formation states that you can place them in ruins 'when coming from reserve'.
Do you have do declare during deployment they will use this ability? Or can you say they will outflank (at beginning of the game) then finally choose the ability when they come out?
choose a type of reserve...normal or outflank...or anything else if a mission or game type allows it...they can choose to show up in ruins instead and decide in that turn
I can see one idea of Synapse-free list being proposed.
What if I counter with a synapse-heavy list, whereby you have tons of redundancy with synapse units still contributing to the army in an effective way?
The main issue I see with this is, past say 1500pts, you simply run out of FOC for this to be viable. Ally-options would change this drastically (an additional 3 single zoanthropes taking the place of a 2nd Tervigon) but alas
Razerous wrote: I can see one idea of Synapse-free list being proposed.
What if I counter with a synapse-heavy list, whereby you have tons of redundancy with synapse units still contributing to the army in an effective way?
The main issue I see with this is, past say 1500pts, you simply run out of FOC for this to be viable. Ally-options would change this drastically (an additional 3 single zoanthropes taking the place of a 2nd Tervigon) but alas
i've played 8 games with new nidz so far ( 3x C:SM, 2x CSM , 2x Tau, 1x DE/Eldar,), and so far i lost only 1 game ( Vs Imperial fist with 3 flyers at 1k points) and I must admit that my nidz are doing far better than expected, especially against DE/Eldar.
At 1750 pts I ran:
Against DE/Eldar list that included 10 rangers, seercouncil, 3 venoms with blaster, raider with wycher and leileth, illikh, wraitknight etc. I was expecting to lose horribly but due to getting 3x onslaught and Onslaught + VS + Flamer/Devourers+flying off of the table I lured his venoms into one corner of the table with exposed flyrant, and once he failed to kill it I massacred all his venoms and most scoring units with Crone + 2x Flyrants + Biovores, leaving wyches and warriors scattered, pinned, miles away from the relic and without any trasnport and without anything to shoot at. My crone got me FB (and effectively winning the game since I won by 1 point) by Vector striking raider, flaming 8 wyches within it and then running off the table
To be fair...onslaught was the original battle focus and the 5th ed book explicitly stated that you could run or shoot first...but, the times...they are a changin'.
Lansirill wrote:I'm not sure how valuable minimizing Synapse really is, considering that it tends to come packaged with Shadow in the Warp. Between Daemons and Eldar I really like having enough of that in my list to at least cause them a little grief. I like the 5-man Genestealer squads for scoring myself, but I'm not sure I agree on the lack of Synapse.
I like genestealers because they can augment your turn two threat saturation depending on what you're facing. If you think they are not needed or will do no good there you then have the option of leaving them to camp. For units you want as dedicated campers though a brood of three warriors with a strangler is only 30 points more and provides threat to a large area of the battlefield. Either is a good choice IMO.
Mozzamanx wrote: See I'd go completely the other way regarding Manufactorum 'Stealers because by Infiltrating that close, all you are saying is 'Here is 25% of my entire Scoring capability, please kill it before my actual threats get here'.
It depends on their deployment, weapon ranges, unit choices, etc. If you're going first and their deployment allows you get your flyers close to them on turn 1 then theirs no reason not to infiltrate right on top of them to present as much threat as possible. Most armies will have no choice but to focus on grounding those flyers and any fire going elsewhere is detracting from their ability to deal with the main threat at that point.
Also if they don't have much that ignores cover infiltrate right next door to them in cover and GtG for a 2+ cover save.
In any case, if you don't feel it would do any good in a particular battle, then don't. Just hold them in reserve, infiltrate, or even deploy them in you back field and just have them camp objectives. Point is they may die fairly easy to many things but they're cheap and come with many deployment options that can be used to you advantage.
Regen at low point evels is much better and you need that Tervigon to last the game. If you get lucky with a bit of onsluaght catalyst the list should do really well at 1000 ... three MCs are just hard to deal with at that level.
Regen at low point evels is much better and you need that Tervigon to last the game. If you get lucky with a bit of onsluaght catalyst the list should do really well at 1000 ... three MCs are just hard to deal with at that level.
My opinion: I would drop a TLDev and pickup a Heavy Venom Cannon on the Flyrant instead. It will be your only fast unit to get across the board quickly and will be a prime target for killing. Giving him the HVC will allow you to take things slower, move him with your other MCs and not worry about the range of your devs.
Newtype Zero wrote: My opinion: I would drop a TLDev and pickup a Heavy Venom Cannon on the Flyrant instead. It will be your only fast unit to get across the board quickly and will be a prime target for killing. Giving him the HVC will allow you to take things slower, move him with your other MCs and not worry about the range of your devs.
If he had any other form of AA, this would be a decent idea. But not having a second flyrant or a crone, really makes that second set of devs important.
Newtype Zero wrote: My opinion: I would drop a TLDev and pickup a Heavy Venom Cannon on the Flyrant instead. It will be your only fast unit to get across the board quickly and will be a prime target for killing. Giving him the HVC will allow you to take things slower, move him with your other MCs and not worry about the range of your devs.
If he had any other form of AA, this would be a decent idea. But not having a second flyrant or a crone, really makes that second set of devs important.
The more i look at my lists using a firestorm, the more open this codex is appearing to me. Having reliable AA for the same cost as a flyrant leaves me to go wild and use Deathleaper or Old One Eye without feeling guilty.
but yes, in that person's case keeping both devourers on the flyrant is probably a wonderful idea.
Speaking of dual devourers, have you guys seen the new bit that forgeworld teased in their blog? It'll be possible to wysiwyg 2 pairs of devourers with those arms, and great conversion bits for dakkafexes. Here's hoping they don't cost 12 GBP apiece.
tetrisphreak wrote: The more i look at my lists using a firestorm, the more open this codex is appearing to me. Having reliable AA for the same cost as a flyrant leaves me to go wild and use Deathleaper or Old One Eye without feeling guilty.
but yes, in that person's case keeping both devourers on the flyrant is probably a wonderful idea.
Speaking of dual devourers, have you guys seen the new bit that forgeworld teased in their blog? It'll be possible to wysiwyg 2 pairs of devourers with those arms, and great conversion bits for dakkafexes. Here's hoping they don't cost 12 GBP apiece.
Those devourers were sculpted exactly to look like pre-existing conversions made by the tyranid community.
I have just been ignoring AA...it's been working beautifully.
tetrisphreak wrote: The more i look at my lists using a firestorm, the more open this codex is appearing to me. Having reliable AA for the same cost as a flyrant leaves me to go wild and use Deathleaper or Old One Eye without feeling guilty.
but yes, in that person's case keeping both devourers on the flyrant is probably a wonderful idea.
Speaking of dual devourers, have you guys seen the new bit that forgeworld teased in their blog? It'll be possible to wysiwyg 2 pairs of devourers with those arms, and great conversion bits for dakkafexes. Here's hoping they don't cost 12 GBP apiece.
Those devourers were sculpted exactly to look like pre-existing conversions made by the tyranid community.
I have just been ignoring AA...it's been working beautifully.
True...
I have bio cannon bits from the 2 crones i put together, that's currently in my "to do" list is to get some devourer tips and make them into TLDev's.
So I have a league game tonight. It's a funky scenario - kill points, game lasts for 7 turns (no rolling for turns) and dead units come on from Reserve on your next turn.
I'm playing against another Nid player. I'm thinking of using the following list:
Spoiler:
+++ escalation1750 (1750pts) +++
+ HQ +
* Hive Tyrant
(Psyker (Mastery Level 2) (), Shadow in the Warp, Synapse Creature)
2x Twin-Linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms
* Old One Eye
(Alpha Leader, Berzerk Rampage, Fearless, Instinctive Behaviour - Feed, Living Battering Ram)
Crushing claws, Scything talons, Thresher scythe (Tail Weapon)
* Warlord Trait
Adaptive Biology
Part of the point is to have fun, so it's not a balls-to-the-wall tournament list, but I want to see how well it can do overall. Obviously I have a weakness vs Flyers, but with 60 Twin Linked shots a turn I think I'm okay. IIRC MY opponent only has one Flyrant anyway. And I'm still debating between the Shreddershard and the Dessicator on the Tyrannofex.
rigeld2 wrote: and dead units come on from Reserve on your next turn.
Personally, that sounds like the best reason ever to run manufactorum stealers.
I disagree - they can't charge the turn they show up and you're basically feeding 5-model kill points to your opponent with them. I like his approach of the Big T6 Broods so that they die less frequently.
rigeld2 wrote: and dead units come on from Reserve on your next turn.
Personally, that sounds like the best reason ever to run manufactorum stealers.
I disagree - they can't charge the turn they show up and you're basically feeding 5-model kill points to your opponent with them. I like his approach of the Big T6 Broods so that they die less frequently.
However, IMO the VSG (Void Shield Generator) is still a broken piece of equipment that is really too good in regular games. It's main attraction for me is that it stops all ranged small-arms fire if the opponent fails to penetrate the void shields. So F-U venom-spam DE. Muahahahaha.....
Dark Eldar are typically equipped with a ludicrous number of Dark Lances as well.
Regen at low point evels is much better and you need that Tervigon to last the game. If you get lucky with a bit of onsluaght catalyst the list should do really well at 1000 ... three MCs are just hard to deal with at that level.
I think you suggestion is ok, but it is very slow, and requires several models that would dictate future strategy. I think that the key to a Tyranids list is deciding fast nids (flyers + Mawlocs) or slow nids (CFexes, Exocrines, Maybe TFexes). I'll give you an example of each at 1850 (these examples aren't optimized versions), and then give you a 1000 pts list that mainly focuses on units useful for both, that way you could get started without having to determine an overall direction for your list.
Fast Nids (1850)
Spoiler:
Tyrant (Wings, 2 TL Devourer, Hive Commander) - 250
Tyrant (Wings, 2 TL Devourer) - 230
Zoanthrope -50
Venomthrope -45
Zoanthrope - 50
3 Tyranids Warriors (scything Talons on each with 2 Devourers and 1 Barbed Strangler) - 100
25 TGaunts (10 Spinefist, 15 Devourer) - 160
11 HGaunts - 55
20 Gargoyles - 120 (Could be replaced with Raveners)
Crone - 155 (Could be replaced with 2nd Harpy)
Harpy (HVC) - 140 (Could be replaced with 2nd Crone)
3 Biovores - 120
Mawloc - 140
Mawloc - 140
Bastion + Comms Relay - 95
Slow Nids (1850)
Spoiler:
Tyrant (Wings, 2 TL Devourer) - 230
Tyrant (Wings, 2 TL Devourer) - 230
2 Zoanthrope -100 (Could be Replaced with Hive Guard)
2 Venomthrope -90
Zoanthrope - 50
3 Tyranids Warriors (scything Talons on each with 2 Devourers and 1 Barbed Strangler) - 100
10 HGaunts - 50
10 HGaunts - 50
20 Gargoyles - 120
3 Biovores - 120
3 Carnifexes (3 Adrenal glands, 1 with 2 Scything Talons, 2 with 2 TL Devourers) - 465
Exocrine - 170 (Could be replaced with TFex)
Bastion - 75 (Could be replaced with Aegis)
Specialty units that you should avoid unless building a specialty list:
Spoiler:
Old One-Eye
Deathleaper
Swarmlord
Haruspex (Same kit as Exocrine)
Lictor
Pyrovore
Genesteelers
Ripper Swarms
Sky Slasher Swarms
Trygon (Same kit as Mawloc)
Trygon Prime (Same kit as Mawloc)
Unique units that you shouldn't buy until you know your strategy:
Spoiler:
TGaunts with Devourers aka Devilgaunts
Crone
Harpy
Mawloc
Carnifex
Exocrine
TFex
Tervigon
Units you will likely need no matter what direction you go:
Spoiler:
2 Tyrant (Wings, 2 TL Devouers). I would Magnetize the Devourers, because at time you might want to run a BS + LW 1 - 3 Venomthrope
2 - 4 Zoanthropes
3 Warriors (1 Barbed Strangler)
10 - 40 HGaunts
10 - 40 TGaunts (Spinefist is my preference, but Flesborers are ok)
20 - 40 Gargoyles
3 Biovores
Bastion
So I think a good 1000 point list might look like this:
Spoiler:
Tyrant (Wings, 2 TL Devourer) - 230
Tyrant (Wings, 2 TL Devourer) - 230
Zoanthrope -50
Venomthrope -45
13 HGaunts - 65
10 TGaunts - 40
3 Tyranids Warriors (scything Talons on each with 2 Devourers and 1 Barbed Strangler) - 100
20 Gargoyles - 120
Biovore - 40
Biovore - 40
Biovore - 40
Also any list with biovores should probably have a few spore mines handy for misses.
To purchase up to this list, I would make the following suggestion:
Regen at low point evels is much better and you need that Tervigon to last the game. If you get lucky with a bit of onsluaght catalyst the list should do really well at 1000 ... three MCs are just hard to deal with at that level.
I think you suggestion is ok, but it is very slow, and requires several models that would dictate future strategy. I think that the key to a Tyranids list is deciding fast nids (flyers + Mawlocs) or slow nids (CFexes, Exocrines, Maybe TFexes). I'll give you an example of each at 1850 (these examples aren't optimized versions), and then give you a 1000 pts list that mainly focuses on units useful for both, that way you could get started without having to determine an overall direction for your list.
Fast Nids (1850)
Spoiler:
Tyrant (Wings, 2 TL Devourer, Hive Commander) - 250
Tyrant (Wings, 2 TL Devourer) - 230
Zoanthrope -50
Venomthrope -45
Zoanthrope - 50
3 Tyranids Warriors (scything Talons on each with 2 Devourers and 1 Barbed Strangler) - 100
25 TGaunts (10 Spinefist, 15 Devourer) - 160
11 HGaunts - 55
20 Gargoyles - 120 (Could be replaced with Raveners)
Crone - 155 (Could be replaced with 2nd Harpy)
Harpy (HVC) - 140 (Could be replaced with 2nd Crone)
3 Biovores - 120
Mawloc - 140
Mawloc - 140
Bastion + Comms Relay - 95
Slow Nids (1850)
Spoiler:
Tyrant (Wings, 2 TL Devourer) - 230
Tyrant (Wings, 2 TL Devourer) - 230
2 Zoanthrope -100 (Could be Replaced with Hive Guard)
2 Venomthrope -90
Zoanthrope - 50
3 Tyranids Warriors (scything Talons on each with 2 Devourers and 1 Barbed Strangler) - 100
10 HGaunts - 50
10 HGaunts - 50
20 Gargoyles - 120
3 Biovores - 120
3 Carnifexes (3 Adrenal glands, 1 with 2 Scything Talons, 2 with 2 TL Devourers) - 465
Exocrine - 170 (Could be replaced with TFex)
Bastion - 75 (Could be replaced with Aegis)
Specialty units that you should avoid unless building a specialty list:
Spoiler:
Old One-Eye
Deathleaper
Swarmlord
Haruspex (Same kit as Exocrine)
Lictor
Pyrovore
Genesteelers
Ripper Swarms
Sky Slasher Swarms
Trygon (Same kit as Mawloc)
Trygon Prime (Same kit as Mawloc)
Unique units that you shouldn't buy until you know your strategy:
Spoiler:
TGaunts with Devourers aka Devilgaunts
Crone
Harpy
Mawloc
Carnifex
Exocrine
TFex
Tervigon
Units you will likely need no matter what direction you go:
Spoiler:
2 Tyrant (Wings, 2 TL Devouers). I would Magnetize the Devourers, because at time you might want to run a BS + LW 1 - 3 Venomthrope
2 - 4 Zoanthropes
3 Warriors (1 Barbed Strangler)
10 - 40 HGaunts
10 - 40 TGaunts (Spinefist is my preference, but Flesborers are ok)
20 - 40 Gargoyles
3 Biovores
Bastion
So I think a good 1000 point list might look like this:
Spoiler:
Tyrant (Wings, 2 TL Devourer) - 230
Tyrant (Wings, 2 TL Devourer) - 230
Zoanthrope -50
Venomthrope -45
13 HGaunts - 65
10 TGaunts - 40
3 Tyranids Warriors (scything Talons on each with 2 Devourers and 1 Barbed Strangler) - 100
20 Gargoyles - 120
Biovore - 40
Biovore - 40
Biovore - 40
Also any list with biovores should probably have a few spore mines handy for misses.
To purchase up to this list, I would make the following suggestion:
Eldercaveman wrote: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/575587.page
And if you don't like the Biovore model, convert your own
Great tip. I'm bookmarking that for later. The idea of spending $41 for 1 finecast biovore is not very appealing. Much rather spend $70 for 3 plastic conversions.
. the 3rd game was when I tried out the outflanking Warrior unit against a Tau army with a lot of Fire Warriors and infantry units, and it was pretty epic as I did a ton of damage once i outflanked him and my Mawloc raised hell on his battle-line, ending in a Massacure to me 
.
for his run move. 
, but if you think about it... taking as many of these types of guns possible (7-9 stranglethorn cannons, a few harpies with twin-linked 
