Fast Attack-
4x Spore mines [20]
4x Spore mines [20]
Heavy-
Exocrine [170]
Prime can attack to warriors, or termagants for a large amount of ablative wounds. 2 venomthropes is much harder to kill than 1, theres stuff that ignores cover out there but not everything does, and with just 1 you run the risk of something vector striking or a flyer coming in and just blowing up your 1 venomthrope. You still get some monstrous creatures, the exocrine and tervigon. They are just not in HQ. With the tervigon, warriors, prime, and 2 seperate zoanthropes, you have 4-5 areas of Synapse coverage so you dont have to worry about synapse pretty much ever.
This list is designed to move in and unload a lot of shooting, and then do clean up. Turn 2 you should be unloading some nasty firepower. With 3 psykers theres a decent chance you will have onslaught, so you can run and shoot which could give some good turn one firing as well, but most of the units will be out of range on turn 1. Turn 2 there is a decent chance you will drop 2x (4) spore mines and unload close to 100% of the armies shooting into whatever. The army also has a lot of staying power relative to the points level for objectives.
The main weakness being speed, there are no beasts or winged creatures. This army would need thought regarding objectives, as you will not be able to easily rush of and contest or grab last turn guaranteed like some builds of various armies.
Tomorrow is going to be the third battle between a friend I made at the local GW. He's fielding Black Templars, and this is for the tiebreaker. We are playing 2500 points double FOC, and unfortunately I dont have the models to really make this work for me. I know he has a hard time bringing down MC's and takes lots of vehicles.
This is the list Im taking ATM:
2 Flyrants each with HVC/Devourer, one with HC Venomthrope
Venomthrope
Tervigon w/Cluster spines and miasma cannon
30 Gaunts outflanking, 10 have devourers
12 Gargoyles (cover screen)
Hive Crone
Hive Crone
3xCarnifex w/HVC and Devourers, however I may run all Devs Trygon w/Toxin Sacs
Haruspex (my Harpy wont be in the mail yet :( )
Mawloc
Tyrannofex w/Acid and shreddershard beatles
So lots of big bugs. He's got at least two storm ravens and for that reason Im considering giving at least two of the Carnifex all devourers. Im hoping I can get catalyst/onslaught on at least one tyrant.
I've been lurking around ever since the release of the tyranid codex. After completing my current IG army, I was really excited to get the new Tyranid codex and dust off my old CC Tyranid army. Anyway, on to a recent stab for a boilerplate:
Death Leaper x1
Lictor x5
Stealers x5
Brood Lord x1
Stealers x5
Brood Lord x1
Stealers x5
Brood Lord x1
Mawloc x1
Mawloc x1
It comes in around 1050 so there's ample room to expand. The idea is that from the DL's formation you get -1 Ld to anyone with 12" of the formation. From the Broodlords you get The Horror with -2Ld pinning check. On top of that DL gives -D3Ld to a selected character.
You're now able to force pinning checks on a 5 or 6 for the majority of units, supressing them until the rest of your army comes in. On top of that, since you've spread a layer of phermone around the board, your Mawlocs syngergize nicely and won't scatter off their targets.
This all fits in nicely at just over 1k too Thoughts?
streamdragon wrote: Pretty sure you'll need an HQ choice, as I believe the formations do not satisfy the mandatory FoC selections (as they exist outside the FoC).
Absolutely. A Tyrant, Prime, or Old One Eye is needed to form the core of your list.
streamdragon wrote: Pretty sure you'll need an HQ choice, as I believe the formations do not satisfy the mandatory FoC selections (as they exist outside the FoC).
Sorry to not be clear, this isn't a complete list, it's just a nice combo to use in whatever context you'd like. Tack on whatever HQ you want really, the point was the nice synergy that the three types of unit have together.
Eldercaveman wrote: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/575587.page
And if you don't like the Biovore model, convert your own
Great tip. I'm bookmarking that for later. The idea of spending $41 for 1 finecast biovore is not very appealing. Much rather spend $70 for 3 plastic conversions.
I was planning on using leadbelchers as the basis for mine. Making 4 for @$40 was appealing, but these look a little more accurate. Thanks for the link.
If your using stock models for your entire army Nids get very expensive very fast and I hate to say it, but expensive modles can limit your tactical decisions.
Honestly not the biggest fan of the list above. I like T-Fexes at 1000. They can do a lot of damage starting turn two. I love Regen on T6 MCs at 1000. The list I proposed might indeed have slow elements but at 1000 pts it is also tough as nails. It woll get to the opponents DZ by turn three. The Flyrant can fly off and return so everything is in place at the same time too. I guess it is about meta and approach. You have two FMCs. I have one but I have two very tough MCs - one with adrenal coming at you fast. We bioth use Venomthrope and Zoan and Biovores - we absolutely agree on these.
It is people coming from different perspectives Jancoren. I have a list I will be playing next week that is outside the accepted 'norm' for Nids. I just thin that we have boxed ourselves in with the old codex mentality - gargs and flyrants. All we di was acknowledge that Tervigons were nerfed so we cut back on those ( although one is acceptable it seems). I say play an entirely different list. I have no flyers in the list i'm using next week. None. I fully expect to win, lol. I'll PM you the list if you are interested.
Honestly not the biggest fan of the list above. I like T-Fexes at 1000. They can do a lot of damage starting turn two. I love Regen on T6 MCs at 1000. The list I proposed might indeed have slow elements but at 1000 pts it is also tough as nails. It woll get to the opponents DZ by turn three. The Flyrant can fly off and return so everything is in place at the same time too. I guess it is about meta and approach. You have two FMCs. I have one but I have two very tough MCs - one with adrenal coming at you fast. We bioth use Venomthrope and Zoan and Biovores - we absolutely agree on these.
Your list might beat my list (especially in kill points). But you probably aren't going to find many people that want to run a TFex and a Tervigon at 1500+. So someone starting out would have 1 or 2 models that have less usefulness as they expand their collection. Meanwhile, most people will want 2 flyrants at some point. I built my list as a stepping stone on the way to 1850 or 2000.
If I were to play your list, I would tarpit your Tfex with Gargoyles which would take you the entire game to go through. (3 Attacks + blinded (WS 1) = 1 dead gargoyle per turn). My 120 point unit sacrificed against your 200 point one seems like a good bargain. If you ever come to Wichita we can play it out and see.
I really like the thought of infiltrating some Licktors in area terrain, and go to ground for a 2+ cover save. Then have a flyrant come over next turn to get them back up.
But where does it say synapse ignore the gtg effects? I can't find it anywhere in the 'nids codex, or brb. Hopefully i've just missed something!
rigeld2 wrote:So I have a league game tonight. It's a funky scenario - kill points, game lasts for 7 turns (no rolling for turns) and dead units come on from Reserve on your next turn.
I'm playing against another Nid player. I'm thinking of using the following list:
Spoiler:
+++ escalation1750 (1750pts) +++
+ HQ +
* Hive Tyrant
(Psyker (Mastery Level 2) (), Shadow in the Warp, Synapse Creature)
2x Twin-Linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms
* Old One Eye
(Alpha Leader, Berzerk Rampage, Fearless, Instinctive Behaviour - Feed, Living Battering Ram)
Crushing claws, Scything talons, Thresher scythe (Tail Weapon)
* Warlord Trait
Adaptive Biology
Part of the point is to have fun, so it's not a balls-to-the-wall tournament list, but I want to see how well it can do overall. Obviously I have a weakness vs Flyers, but with 60 Twin Linked shots a turn I think I'm okay. IIRC MY opponent only has one Flyrant anyway. And I'm still debating between the Shreddershard and the Dessicator on the Tyrannofex.
Well since the mission rules change what you're looking for from point efficiency to kill/death ratio then hard to kill units with a lot of damage output would be preferred. Two full units of Dakkafexes fits that, two Flyrants (actually not sure on that one, they aren't always hard to kill). Also considering dead units come in from reserves the next turn Tyrgon tunnels will be very useful. Perhaps something like:
1 Tyranid Prime
1 Tyranid Prime
19 Termigants
-19 Devourers
18 Termigants
-18 Devourers
3 Carnifex
-6 TW Devouers W/ BLW
3 Carnifex
-6 TW Devouers W/ BLW
1 Trygon Prime
-Reaper of Obliterax
-Miasma Cannon
Stick the primes with the Dakkafexes and play wound allocation games. They can take 11 wounds before any models are removed
DS the Trygon to get a tunnel out there and you can enter from reserves from there. Every time your opponent kills the Trygon you get a new tunnel to
All units have maximum shooty to do right out of reserves
Carnifex - 2 x Twin Devourers
Carnifex - 2 x Twin Devourers
- Ok, so, that looks stable. But let's throw out some other ideas I want to toy with for the sake of it.
Raveners - Seriously. I love the Raveners. They're fast, throw out multiple attacks, rending is so very handy and The Red Terror is a gem for what it does.
Biovores - I keep hearing praise and love for these guys. As such I may consider a few.
So, putting this out there. 1500 points - let's see what different variant lists we can come up with.
Disclaimer: Currently I only have 1 Flyrant with Twin-Devourers. The foot Tyrants are as follows - Swarmlord, LW & Bonesword, Scytals and Scytals and Venom Cannon.
Currently - Crones are not on the menu. I will get some in due time but it is very much pending a friend's finances sorting out for him as part of our trade.
Likewise - Mawlocs are not on the plate at the moment.
Carnifex - 2 x Twin Devourers
Carnifex - 2 x Twin Devourers
- Ok, so, that looks stable. But let's throw out some other ideas I want to toy with for the sake of it.
Raveners - Seriously. I love the Raveners. They're fast, throw out multiple attacks, rending is so very handy and The Red Terror is a gem for what it does.
Biovores - I keep hearing praise and love for these guys. As such I may consider a few.
So, putting this out there. 1500 points - let's see what different variant lists we can come up with.
Disclaimer: Currently I only have 1 Flyrant with Twin-Devourers. The foot Tyrants are as follows - Swarmlord, LW & Bonesword, Scytals and Scytals and Venom Cannon.
Currently - Crones are not on the menu. I will get some in due time but it is very much pending a friend's finances sorting out for him as part of our trade.
Likewise - Mawlocs are not on the plate at the moment.
Strangle Warriors seem synergetic with Biovores. You might consider dropping the Tervigon and the Stealers for a Biovore unit and another unit of Strangle Warriors. This would give you some good pie plate launches that can sit in your backfield in cover and they can grab points in the late game. Add a Venomthrope you could give them all 2/3+ cover saves in area terrain. The only issue to fix would then be the very little synapse in the midfield for your dakkfexs. I know they won't eat themselves in units of one but it could leave them unable to dakka and that would make a sad dakkafex. The point exchange should leave you with enough to get another Zoanthrope or two (if you forgo the deathspitters) though so that should fix that.
There are 9 Tyranid 6th ed players actually, and so far they have imo, a pretty decent showing so far at least for a new book that has received so much utter doom and gloom.
Really hope at least one will make Day 3, though highly doubtful.
There are 21 3-0 undefeated players on Day 1 atm.
6th Ed Tyranid Record at LVO:
WWW: 1
WWD: 1
WWL: 4
WLL: 2
LLL: 1
For those of us who insist on running a melee-based Tyrant, I think it's worth weighing up the Reaper of Obliterax vs Bonesword & Toxin Sacks combination.
Initially I was thinking the Bonesword & Toxin Sacks, however for only a small increase in price you end up with quite a different weapon.
The Reaper gives us S7, Shred and ID on a 6.
The Bonesword & Toxin Sacks gives us S6, wounds on a 4+ at worst, re-rolls failed wounds that would be 3+ or better, and ID on a 6.
As far as I can tell, the "big" difference when it comes to inflicting ID against a big T8 enemy (like a Wraithknight) is that the Bonesword & Toxin Sacks will re-roll to wounds of 1-3, and ID on a 6, where as the Reaper of Obliterax will re-roll to wounds of 1-4 and ID on a 6, making the Reaper of Obliterax ever so slightly more likely to gib the Wraithknight.
It's also worth notinh that with the Reaper and Adrenal Glands, it's possible to get S8 on the charge, so you can cleave your way through a group of T4 multi-wound models (Nobz, Battlesuits, medium Tyranids etc).
Xyptc wrote: For those of us who insist on running a melee-based Tyrant, I think it's worth weighing up the Reaper of Obliterax vs Bonesword & Toxin Sacks combination.
Initially I was thinking the Bonesword & Toxin Sacks, however for only a small increase in price you end up with quite a different weapon.
The Reaper gives us S7, Shred and ID on a 6.
The Bonesword & Toxin Sacks gives us S6, wounds on a 4+ at worst, re-rolls failed wounds that would be 3+ or better, and ID on a 6.
You'd re-roll wounds against any model T6 or below.
As far as I can tell, the "big" difference when it comes to inflicting ID against a big T8 enemy (like a Wraithknight) is that the Bonesword & Toxin Sacks will re-roll to wounds of 1-3, and ID on a 6, where as the Reaper of Obliterax will re-roll to wounds of 1-4 and ID on a 6, making the Reaper of Obliterax ever so slightly more likely to gib the Wraithknight.
BS&TS wound on a 6 with no re-rolls. Smashing means you wound on a 2 and re-roll 1s.
Oblit wounds on a 5 with re-rolls. Smashing means you wound on a 2 and re-roll 1s.
If you don't want to Smash Oblit is the way to go. If you're okay losing the 2 attacks it doesn't matter which one you use.
Used the firestorm redoubt last night at 1750 vs an eldar army. My opponent was so worried about the damage it would inflict he stayed turtled up all game behind a LOS blocker and relied on battle focus to get shots off with war walkers. He spent so much time hiding that by the time the game ended he couldn't contest any of my objectives so I won 9-8.
I think the psychological aspect of that terrain piece far outweighs its damage capability. Overall I was very happy with it and I don't think 315 pts was over costed at all. I will use it again.
Edit - also I'm considering trying out a fortress of redemption and using termagants to lob krakstorm missiles at out of sight troops.
tetrisphreak wrote: Used the firestorm redoubt last night at 1750 vs an eldar army. My opponent was so worried about the damage it would inflict he stayed turtled up all game behind a LOS blocker and relied on battle focus to get shots off with war walkers. He spent so much time hiding that by the time the game ended he couldn't contest any of my objectives so I won 9-8.
I think the psychological aspect of that terrain piece far outweighs its damage capability. Overall I was very happy with it and I don't think 315 pts was over costed at all. I will use it again.
Edit - also I'm considering trying out a fortress of redemption and using termagants to lob krakstorm missiles at out of sight troops.
Not sure what you put on the firestorm to make it so expensive. I have void shields and a comms relay and I am nowhere near that expensive.
Xyptc wrote:For those of us who insist on running a melee-based Tyrant, I think it's worth weighing up the Reaper of Obliterax vs Bonesword & Toxin Sacks combination.
Initially I was thinking the Bonesword & Toxin Sacks, however for only a small increase in price you end up with quite a different weapon.
The Reaper gives us S7, Shred and ID on a 6.
The Bonesword & Toxin Sacks gives us S6, wounds on a 4+ at worst, re-rolls failed wounds that would be 3+ or better, and ID on a 6.
As far as I can tell, the "big" difference when it comes to inflicting ID against a big T8 enemy (like a Wraithknight) is that the Bonesword & Toxin Sacks will re-roll to wounds of 1-3, and ID on a 6, where as the Reaper of Obliterax will re-roll to wounds of 1-4 and ID on a 6, making the Reaper of Obliterax ever so slightly more likely to gib the Wraithknight.
It's also worth notinh that with the Reaper and Adrenal Glands, it's possible to get S8 on the charge, so you can cleave your way through a group of T4 multi-wound models (Nobz, Battlesuits, medium Tyranids etc).
Has anyone experimented with the two?
rigeld2 wrote:
Xyptc wrote: For those of us who insist on running a melee-based Tyrant, I think it's worth weighing up the Reaper of Obliterax vs Bonesword & Toxin Sacks combination.
Initially I was thinking the Bonesword & Toxin Sacks, however for only a small increase in price you end up with quite a different weapon.
The Reaper gives us S7, Shred and ID on a 6.
The Bonesword & Toxin Sacks gives us S6, wounds on a 4+ at worst, re-rolls failed wounds that would be 3+ or better, and ID on a 6.
You'd re-roll wounds against any model T6 or below.
As far as I can tell, the "big" difference when it comes to inflicting ID against a big T8 enemy (like a Wraithknight) is that the Bonesword & Toxin Sacks will re-roll to wounds of 1-3, and ID on a 6, where as the Reaper of Obliterax will re-roll to wounds of 1-4 and ID on a 6, making the Reaper of Obliterax ever so slightly more likely to gib the Wraithknight.
BS&TS wound on a 6 with no re-rolls. Smashing means you wound on a 2 and re-roll 1s.
Oblit wounds on a 5 with re-rolls. Smashing means you wound on a 2 and re-roll 1s.
If you don't want to Smash Oblit is the way to go. If you're okay losing the 2 attacks it doesn't matter which one you use.
I agree. If your going to take TS and WL + BS it's better just to forgo those and pay ten more points for the Reaper. Always rerolling To-Wound regardless of Strength vs Toughness and +1S on top of that is totally worth the extra cost.
Vs. a Wraithknight you want the reaper without AG. Wounding on 5+ with shred equals more rerolls which equals more chances for 6s To-wound and cause ID. You don't get those rerolls from TS and BS because you don't match his toughness with your strength. Smash attacks with either the reaper or BS + TS severely decrease you chance at ID because you get less attacks and they wound on 2+ thus lowering the possible number of rerolls To-Wounds and drastically lowering the odds of getting 6s on the To-Wound roll.
I also run the Reaper of Obliterax on my Trygon Prime. I got tired of them getting killed by Wraithknights in melee (oddly enough). It's also a candidate for the Miasma Cannon if you're going to DS it. That template attack generally takes it's own point value out of their army on the turn it arrives.
I really like the thought of infiltrating some Licktors in area terrain, and go to ground for a 2+ cover save. Then have a flyrant come over next turn to get them back up.
But where does it say synapse ignore the gtg effects? I can't find it anywhere in the 'nids codex, or brb. Hopefully i've just missed something!
It's in the FAQ.
"Q: If a unit has the Fearless special rule applied to them while they
have Gone to Ground, are the effects of Go to Ground immediately
cancelled (for example, if this were to occur at the start of their turn
could those units then move, shoot etc. as normal in the appropriate
phases?) (p35)
A: Yes. "
Xyptc wrote:For those of us who insist on running a melee-based Tyrant, I think it's worth weighing up the Reaper of Obliterax vs Bonesword & Toxin Sacks combination.
Initially I was thinking the Bonesword & Toxin Sacks, however for only a small increase in price you end up with quite a different weapon.
The Reaper gives us S7, Shred and ID on a 6.
The Bonesword & Toxin Sacks gives us S6, wounds on a 4+ at worst, re-rolls failed wounds that would be 3+ or better, and ID on a 6.
As far as I can tell, the "big" difference when it comes to inflicting ID against a big T8 enemy (like a Wraithknight) is that the Bonesword & Toxin Sacks will re-roll to wounds of 1-3, and ID on a 6, where as the Reaper of Obliterax will re-roll to wounds of 1-4 and ID on a 6, making the Reaper of Obliterax ever so slightly more likely to gib the Wraithknight.
It's also worth notinh that with the Reaper and Adrenal Glands, it's possible to get S8 on the charge, so you can cleave your way through a group of T4 multi-wound models (Nobz, Battlesuits, medium Tyranids etc).
Has anyone experimented with the two?
rigeld2 wrote:
Xyptc wrote: For those of us who insist on running a melee-based Tyrant, I think it's worth weighing up the Reaper of Obliterax vs Bonesword & Toxin Sacks combination.
Initially I was thinking the Bonesword & Toxin Sacks, however for only a small increase in price you end up with quite a different weapon.
The Reaper gives us S7, Shred and ID on a 6.
The Bonesword & Toxin Sacks gives us S6, wounds on a 4+ at worst, re-rolls failed wounds that would be 3+ or better, and ID on a 6.
You'd re-roll wounds against any model T6 or below.
As far as I can tell, the "big" difference when it comes to inflicting ID against a big T8 enemy (like a Wraithknight) is that the Bonesword & Toxin Sacks will re-roll to wounds of 1-3, and ID on a 6, where as the Reaper of Obliterax will re-roll to wounds of 1-4 and ID on a 6, making the Reaper of Obliterax ever so slightly more likely to gib the Wraithknight.
BS&TS wound on a 6 with no re-rolls. Smashing means you wound on a 2 and re-roll 1s.
Oblit wounds on a 5 with re-rolls. Smashing means you wound on a 2 and re-roll 1s.
If you don't want to Smash Oblit is the way to go. If you're okay losing the 2 attacks it doesn't matter which one you use.
I agree. If your going to take TS and WL + BS it's better just to forgo those and pay ten more points for the Reaper. Always rerolling To-Wound regardless of Strength vs Toughness and +1S on top of that is totally worth the extra cost.
Vs. a Wraithknight you want the reaper without AG. Wounding on 5+ with shred equals more rerolls which equals more chances for 6s To-wound and cause ID. You don't get those rerolls from TS and BS because you don't match his toughness with your strength. Smash attacks with either the reaper or BS + TS severely decrease you chance at ID because you get less attacks and they wound on 2+ thus lowering the possible number of rerolls To-Wounds and drastically lowering the odds of getting 6s on the To-Wound roll.
I'd rather buy the lw/bs adrenals and toxin...for the same points I lose being s7 all the time...a few rare instances of rerolls to wound....but with the reaper...I lose fleet...which is tremendous.
Automatically Appended Next Post: ...which is why the reaper is only really worth it on a trygon prime
It's not much of a loss on a Flyrant either considering their mobility but Fleet does add a couple of inches onto their average assault threat range. It's never been much of an issue for me so I've never felt the need to get the adrenal glands so I spend my points elsewhere.
Big Guns - 5 Objectives - Dawn of War - He went 1st
It was a relatively close battle if the game ended on turn 5 I would have won. If the game ended on turn 6 I would have won. But by turn 7 he was able to win.
How the Game went:
Spoiler:
I got very lucky on his flamer squads. I tried to deny him the ability to deep strike next to my large Gaunt squads, and he was very aggressive trying to DS them. Both Mishapped and roll a 1 on the Misshap table.
Both Zoanthropes died turn 1. He took one out with 12 SMS shots. He wounded on 8. I rolled 6 for 8 saves. The other one was deployed a little too far in the open. When he moved, he was able to shoot 3 missle suites into it. On the first 3 saves, I failed 2 of 3.
He was benefitted by terrain. He was able to deploy all of his Broadsides on upper levels of ruins, and his plasma suits managed to stay on upper level of ruins once they arrived, as well. That denied my Mawlocs targets, and was challenging for assault.
On his turn 2, his plasmas arrived next to my flyrant who was hiding out of line of sight. He shot everything he could at that one, and did 1 wound, but failed to bring it down. Flyrant 2 on the other hand, was not as out of line of sight as I had hoped. He did 3 wounds with 1 broadside that could see it (Stupid Terrain). I failed 2 of 3 saves. I failed grounding, and took a wound. Then a riptide finished it with SmS. That denied me synapse for 1/2 of the board.
On turn 2 I arrived in a big way. 1 Mawloc scattered, and hit some drones. Another landed on his commander, and did some good damage, killing a suite and 2 drones, and putting 2 wounds on his commander. The 3rd misshaped, and he placed it in the middle of his Plasma suites. Both squads of Gaunts arrived and killed 1 1/2 suite (3 wounds) with all of their fire. I felt like this was very poor, but it was what it was. My Genesteelers made it into CC with a riptide, and put several wounds on it. My Warrior on top of the bastion was taking out a couple of drones every turn.
On his turn 3 he charged one of his commander plus 4 marker drones into my squad of 30 gaunts. I put 2 wounds on his commander in overwatch. This combat lasted several turns. I was out of synapse, so I had to win or tie combat which I did both turns despite his drones making 9 of 12 4 + saves. In turn 5 he did win combat, and swept the remaining 22 gaunts with his remaining Commander + 1 drone. Argh! He also shot at my other squat of gaunts, but didn't do much damage. He did kill the mawloc he had placed, and maneuver so that I couldn't really charge anything.
On my turn 3, my remaining mawlocs burrowed. I moved my flyrant into range of his commander not in CC, and fired devourers. I managed to kill one squad of broadsided with my large gaunt squad (shooting + assault), I had been planning to assault the Flyrant into them, but it was unneeded). I also finished off his riptide with my genesteelers.
On his turn 4, every bullet he had went into my Flyrant, and killed it, except for the riptide who messed up my genesteelers (only 2 left). Thank goodness for Leadership 10 on genesteelers.
On my turn 4, My 2 Mawlocs returned. One landed on one of his backfield objectives, the other Took some wounds off his riptide, and then misshaped. It rolled a 1. I managed to pass all but 1 of my leadership tests, so my HGaunts (killed 4 of their 7, but) held one objective. My Genesteelers (2 remaining) held a 2nd. My Mawloc held a 3rd (easily contested), and my Warriors held a 4th. His 2 remaining broadsides had the 5th.
On his turn 5, he shoot his riptide at my warriors, and killed 2. Everything else shot at my Mawloc and took off some wounds.
My turn 5, I passed all of my leadership. I moved the Mawloc closer to the objective, I move my gaunts, and were going to assault the riptide, but managed to kill it in shooting. So he had 1st blood and Warlord, I had 4 of 5 objectives. We both had linebreaker Game did not end.
His turn 6, he kill my last warrior, He took some wounds off the Mawloc (down to 1).
My turn 6, My TGaunts were the only ones to fail synapse. So they couldn't shoot at his Warlord. But I still held 3 objectives to his 1, and he lost linebreaker trying to kill my mawloc. So I would have won if the game ended. But it didn't.
His turn 7, he killed my last mawloc, and shot up some of my TGaunts. I conceded.
My lessons from the game.
Spoiler:
1) Crisis suites are nearly as OP as Broadsides. The assault move gives them amazing mobility, and they fail so few saves. At least broadsides are less mobile.
2) My flyrants only managed to get of 2 devourer shots all game. I spent most of my time hiding them, and I never had a chance to get into CC. So BS + LW is a waste against tau. Likewise Thorax weapons. Straight DakkaFlyrants are the way to go.
3) Big LOS blocking terrain is good for 'Nids but terrible for Mawlocs.
4) The reroll on Nova change is stupid.
5) Genesteelers (who I brought because of my aggressive list) overperformed (1 dead riptide 190 points + objective + the broodlord pinned a riptide twice) but just barely. I still think they are not a viable include in any less aggressive list.
6) Mawlocs are good, but I'm still unsure if they are good enough to include in my standard list over Fexes, Biovores, and Exocrines.
7) I really feel like I made very few mistakes (deployment of Zoanthrope being the most glaring), and I still had very little chance to actually table a non-optimized Tau list. He still had 2 commanders (1 wound each, 1 Marker light each), 2 Broadsides, and 4 Plasma suites. So I don't think this type of aggressive list is going to be the answer.
My IG game was far less interesting. I ran a similar list -Genesteelers -2 Mawlocs + 2 Biovores + 2 Dakkafexes. I made many mistakes. Still I could have gotten a Draw on turn 5. Came down to a Heavy weapon team assaulting and killing 2 HGaunts. I feel like this list ha real problems with Mech. I think I'm giving up on Devil Gaunt outflanking lists. It forces me to be too aggressive with my Flyrants. Instead, I'm going to focus on adding more Fexes or Gargoyles.
Next week I plan to proxy my Tervigon as an exocrine, and try to give that a test. Biovores + Fexes + Exocrine for HV support.
One rules question: If I give Adrenals to Fexes, they get S10 HOW right? I swear I read that somewhere, but in the rulebook seems to say the opposite.
I see a ton of lists using single Zoeys for synapse, and often giving up kill points or (more often) First Blood. I've always been of the opinion that a lone Zoey is not durable enough, and the batreps seem to bear this out.
Two or three zoeys would use the same slot but cost slightly more, while an additional squad of warriors would not cost all that much more while providing more wounds but losing that handy lance. I just hate to see first blood given up by zoeys so often.
SBG wrote: I see a ton of lists using single Zoeys for synapse, and often giving up kill points or (more often) First Blood. I've always been of the opinion that a lone Zoey is not durable enough, and the batreps seem to bear this out.
Two or three zoeys would use the same slot but cost slightly more, while an additional squad of warriors would not cost all that much more while providing more wounds but losing that handy lance. I just hate to see first blood given up by zoeys so often.
A lone zoey by itself isn't a great buy I think, but if you have a Bastion I think it's a great deal.
Depends how you are using a lone Zoanthrope I suppose. Against Tau (or Taudar, or anything with Tau in it really) with all their ignore LoS "fun" a lone unit of any sort of going to be easy First Blood.
Against other, more balanced, forces it is quite posisble to play a lone Zoanthrope intelligently and keep it alive the whole game with LoS and target priority.
SBG wrote: I see a ton of lists using single Zoeys for synapse, and often giving up kill points or (more often) First Blood. I've always been of the opinion that a lone Zoey is not durable enough, and the batreps seem to bear this out.
Two or three zoeys would use the same slot but cost slightly more, while an additional squad of warriors would not cost all that much more while providing more wounds but losing that handy lance. I just hate to see first blood given up by zoeys so often.
A lone zoey by itself isn't a great buy I think, but if you have a Bastion I think it's a great deal.
I agree, though most don't seem to utilize a bastion...
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Xyptc wrote: Depends how you are using a lone Zoanthrope I suppose. Against Tau (or Taudar, or anything with Tau in it really) with all their ignore LoS "fun" a lone unit of any sort of going to be easy First Blood.
Against other, more balanced, forces it is quite possible to play a lone Zoanthrope intelligently and keep it alive the whole game with LoS and target priority.
I'm not so sure. Intelligent opponents should have the tools to defeat 2 t4 wounds at range quite readily, even on the first turn. And most opponents will recognize the value of the 'free' point that it will get them... whether deep striking, barrage, sniper squads, long range anti-tank, and so on.
I don't trust a 2 point swing to be safe on such a vulnerable platform.
It helped solidify some things about the codex for me, particularly that small gibblies arent where its at for troops and Tervigon as a troop is just too expensive in lower point games.
It also showed that the codex is a lot of fun to play and is actually flexible, I switched from full on assault to strat defense halfway. I made some mistakes but a lot of my 'theories' worked out. I loved the Reaper/Lashwhip Tyrants and my fliers. I cant wait to run my list with the Harpy added as well.
Wow lechine, that was a string of unlucky events on your side there.
When you say that you're not so keen on "smaller bugs" for troops, are you now considering moving towards Tyranid Warriors as scoring units?
Strikes me that had the Prime and his Termagaunts arrived on the correct flank, then things could have gone very differently over there (you could even have fed Termagants to Lysander all game).
Have you considered a second similar unit to outflank, hedging your bets on coming in where you need to?
Well I used the Gants purely because it was 2500pts and could afford the Tervigon. I do agree that they could have done a lot more, Id like to have trapped Lysander and detached Prime, or at least get some of the firing off of my heavy hitters. But without that Prime attached,
that unit could have easily come in wrong and then run off the field after failing synapse checks. Gants have a synapse tax, and that tax is expensive.
My 2000pt list just uses Warriors, a large group outflanking and another 100pt group for field synapse. Once I get them painted up I'll face them off against the wife's Eldau list. It's her birthday week so there will be a new Wraithknight or two to face, should be an interesting BatRep itself.
My first lists used Flyrant s with HC, deep strikers, infiltrators. I've been slowly moving away from those builds under 2000. I have a few lists I play and I'm tweaking my no flyer list after every game I play. Those that have seen it ... i can say that it has already changed. One unit though that has performed extremely well for me is the CarniStar - a deathspitter Prime (130 pts) and three TLdev Carnis (450 pts). No doubt this is an expensive unit and I will be playing two of these now. The other unit I like is the afroementioned Zoan in a bastion with quad autocannons. Again, this not a cheap unit coming in at 175 pts. This does not leave all that much for other slots at 1750. What can I say. Its funny - in 5th edition and early 6ed I used the CarniStar a lot and then shelved it for awhile using Dual flyrant/Zoans in pods/Tervigons and spamming telepathy and biomancy. This is not feasible with the new codex so Nid players have to adjust their thinking yet again.
Now Jy2 tried the nine Carni list and got run over. I think his list was actually not too bad. He did run into bad luck with the die and he used two Flyrants ( which are not in my list ). He aslo skimmped a bit on troops as again - when you invest so much in Carnis and HQs what is left over? I think with a bit more balance the Carni lists could be among the better Nid lists but I need to test a lot more before deciding what constitutes 'balance' in today's meta. I want a solid list to counter to more than the WS/DA lists that Jy2 faced.
I keep seeing Tervigons knocked - and I agree they are not what they used to be. But adding a single Terv with regen and maybe a thorax upgrade is still viable I believe. I just think you need enough threatening MCs in your list to pull it off as MTO is necessary and cover ( hiding behind a Carni wall) will really help. These are just my impressions after a handful games, mind you. I have yet to play enough games to cement my first impressions of the new codex. I have used three entirely different lists so I will have to sit down and do a real analysis one of these days. I do feel however, that the Nid codex is not all doom and gloom. There is a lot of potential there.
With all that said - my biggest problem is still range. I want to use a foot list. It has all the models Iike. But I move 6" with a gun that has a 18" range. Catching any mech list is tough. Cutting off their transports is tough. DE and Eldar are real problems with a foot list. I have yet to find a sloid answer
(please do not say fragile Crones and Flyrants). I know Ravs, Gargs, infiltaring Stealers all help but they also offer easy first blood and soft targets. I can tailor a bit for these lists for sure but then against other lists I will suffer. Outflank is simply unreliable, Mawlocs are erratic at best. So I can go with solid and true units and they are slow. I am going to see what lists did well at LVO and then re-assess.
For what it is worth, I've committed to all my games this week using the Minimum Genestealer Troops theory seen a few pages back. I have to say, i'm deeply interested in the idea of them being non-synapse needing back-field campers, with the option of being used more aggressively as the game demands/table is set up, etc...
I don't know, I just have this feeling there is something to the idea. Plus, pulling out the Tervigon, the Term-tax (and the devourers I liked to have on some of them), etc... means I can put in 4 min broods of stealers, and still have enough points that I can now sneak in another FMC, etc...
Yes! You can be my test monkey to get some real testing with the list. As I said it was purely theory from an outward observer, but if there are some results to go with it...
We can split the fame 50/50 when you sweep your first tournament.
SBG wrote: I see a ton of lists using single Zoeys for synapse, and often giving up kill points or (more often) First Blood. I've always been of the opinion that a lone Zoey is not durable enough, and the batreps seem to bear this out.
Two or three zoeys would use the same slot but cost slightly more, while an additional squad of warriors would not cost all that much more while providing more wounds but losing that handy lance. I just hate to see first blood given up by zoeys so often.
A lone zoey by itself isn't a great buy I think, but if you have a Bastion I think it's a great deal.
I agree, though most don't seem to utilize a bastion...
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Xyptc wrote: Depends how you are using a lone Zoanthrope I suppose. Against Tau (or Taudar, or anything with Tau in it really) with all their ignore LoS "fun" a lone unit of any sort of going to be easy First Blood.
Against other, more balanced, forces it is quite possible to play a lone Zoanthrope intelligently and keep it alive the whole game with LoS and target priority.
I'm not so sure. Intelligent opponents should have the tools to defeat 2 t4 wounds at range quite readily, even on the first turn. And most opponents will recognize the value of the 'free' point that it will get them... whether deep striking, barrage, sniper squads, long range anti-tank, and so on.
I don't trust a 2 point swing to be safe on such a vulnerable platform.
Zoes have the really about the best save in the codex with a 3++. Run as solo's with enough other more pressing board threats works pretty well. And lets face it nid's are almost always giving up first blood anyway. As an army we are just squishy.
Here is my 1500pt Nid list that has managed to win on the two games I've played with it (Necrons and Wolves)
Flyrant - stranglethorn, TWDev
Zthrope
Zthrope
20 Gants - 5 dev
20 gants - 5 dev
4 warriors - rend claws, dspitters
5 Raveners - rend claws
Exocrine
TFex - rupture, regen
2 Cfex - 2 scyth talons
I would love to here what you guys think about it so far, what you would change, and what I should add to bring it to 2000pt. I've got my taxes back and this is going to be the one time that I would actually have the funds to apply what you think the changes should be.
p.s. I'd like to add that I'm really liking how the warriors are working in my local meta and was really considering the 9 strong outflanking brood. Have enough people tested it out to be viable?
From a non-Tyranid player who has enjoyably been following this whole thread, here are my thoughts:
Flyrants were awesome before, now they're strictly better. The only problem now is that synapse is even more important than ever, so flying your synapse up can really hurt you.
I think Tervigons seem as essential as they were last edition, but I don't see why you would ever need more than one.
It's unfortunate that a bastion seems necessary but if you want to go the venom + zoan route it is 100% required since a 2W T4 model is mincemeat against almost any army. Too bad they weren't made ICs...
I find it really unfortunate that they price gouged Primes since they seem like they fill a much more essential role than last edition. I think they're really good but the increase hurts. Still a deathspitter prime is a whole 100 pts cheaper than a flyrant. Too bad the HQ slot is so crowded...
Mawlocs are crap. I have not seen one perform stellar in all the batreps I've seen. They are just way too unreliable, those points could be spent much better elsewhere.
Tyrannofex's are awesome. Dropping anything by 75 points was very generous. I would take 2 with the torrent weapon charging up the field to put severe pressure on any army. They are also tough as nails to take down and anything not AP2 is a waste of shots.
TLDev carnifexes are awesome as well. I would think that at least 1 full brood does a lot to buff any army. It's something you can't ignore.
Deathleaper is really cool, but alas, he is also in the HQ slot and there is no room in the inn...
Hormagaunts seem very scary to me. They are essentially baby daemonettes. I think more people need to try them out instead of clinging to their beloved Termagants.
I honestly can't even give an opinion on warriors. It just seems like they're way too determined by the matchup.
All in all, I would not be opposed to giving a tyranid player an extra HQ slot. If space puppies get extra ones why can't tyranid players? Oh wait, they're space marines...
Anyways, I figured I would give you guys my thoughts.
I'm primarily a CSM player so I know the feels and hope you guys can figure the codex out.
Deathleaper is really cool, but alas, he is also in the HQ slot and there is no room in the inn...
We have a formation for that. What makes it better is that the Tyranid Formations give us the things we want (Deathleaper, Lictors, Genestealers) and do not eat up their heavily contested force org slots to do so.
Hormagaunts seem very scary to me. They are essentially baby daemonettes. I think more people need to try them out instead of clinging to their beloved Termagants.
Sorry but Daemonettes are strictly better in every way. They move just as fast, the have rending, they have a 5+ invul save, and a lower WS. They are a bit move expensive but...man do you get a lot more bang for your buck, plus you can attach a Herald and make them even better.
Hormagaunts were better in 5th when they got reroll 1's to hit and people didn't use them back then. Termagants lose one attack and one initiative but gain a gun and in 6th edition a gun is worth more than an extra attack in CC. Also consider that termagants get counter attack if they are in range of a Tervigon.
Hormagaunts seem very scary to me. They are essentially baby daemonettes. I think more people need to try them out instead of clinging to their beloved Termagants.
Sorry but Daemonettes are strictly better in every way. They move just as fast, the have rending, they have a 5+ invul save, and a lower WS. They are a bit move expensive but...man do you get a lot more bang for your buck, plus you can attach a Herald and make them even better.
Hormagaunts were better in 5th when they got reroll 1's to hit and people didn't use them back then. Termagants lose one attack and one initiative but gain a gun and in 6th edition a gun is worth more than an extra attack in CC. Also consider that termagants get counter attack if they are in range of a Tervigon.
Hormagaunts are still great and very comparable to daemonettes...they fail to be equivalent in the necessity for synapse...they need shrikes or a trygon prime.
Of course daemonettes are better - but you get 18 hormagaunts for the cost of 10 of them. As a meat shield unit designed to weaken or delay the enemy hormagaunts are superb.
tetrisphreak wrote: Of course daemonettes are better - but you get 18 hormagaunts for the cost of 10 of them. As a meat shield unit designed to weaken or delay the enemy hormagaunts are superb.
Exactly. They're not a straight apples to apples comparison. Plus, you can always find something better in a different codex.
On the Deathleaper thing, yeah that's true there's a dataslate, that helps a lot. What really needs to get released is a prime one. If you could get 2 or even 1 prime outside of your FOC it would be game changing.
Mawlocs are crap. I have not seen one perform stellar in all the batreps I've seen. They are just way too unreliable, those points could be spent much better elsewhere.
I like them because they are cheap, if you have 5 FMC in your opponent face, an additional t6 w6 MC for only 140 that have the possibility of killing something the turn it arrive helps.
Solo Zoanthropes: My boards usually have enough terrain that I can hide them to prevent my opponent killing one to get First Blood, I still give up First Blood half the time anyway unless I can take something out with a Flyrant without overextending.
Mawlocs: I maintain the opinion I've had since the book dropped; they're decent but too unreliable, and not worth wasting a valuable Heavy Support slot on.
Hormagaunts: I cannot see why I would take these over Gargoyles.
tetrisphreak wrote: Of course daemonettes are better - but you get 18 hormagaunts for the cost of 10 of them. As a meat shield unit designed to weaken or delay the enemy hormagaunts are superb.
When I think of Hormagaunts, I think of Ork Shoota Boyz.
Simply put, Shoota Boyz are just as good at assault (better), but they can shoot too! Hormagaunts are worse tarpits than gargoyles, and worse shock troops than Shoota Boyz. They can't touch mech. They can't overwatch. They die in droves. They eat themselves out of synapse. In my opinion their main usefulness is as bubble wrap that can hold objectives. Any list that relies on them for their combat effectiveness is going to be disappointed
So I'm curious. I've heard some people say they like using this things now and I can't figure out why.
Tyrannofex
Worth it's points or no?
The 2+ armor save seems nice but doesn't it become the natural target selection for all the long range AP2 weapons out there? Acid spray is nice but is it 175 points nice? I don't think so. and definitely not worth having to march across the board with a babysitter so it doesn't bury it's head in the sand and start blind-firing snapshots
Rupture cannon? LoL, Hive Crones seem like they are just about as good for Anti-tank (haywire + VS) and do AAand are decent anti-infantry for 25% less points. The Rupture Cannon bounces off Wraithknights and tac squads alike why is this even here? Why is it AP4? ...and 30 freakin points!?
Fleshborer Hive? Yeah we really need more 18 inch range S4 attacks...
Thorax Swarm? The rest of my army will be dead before I get that close...
CC? Yeah right, 3 attacks and 3 WS...
So what do people use this thing for? Even at the discounted point cost it seems like everything it could possibly do can be done better and cheaper by something else that is more point efficient and flexible. Am I missing something?
Ok that sounded like a anti-Tyrannofex rant but I really am wondering if there is a place in a list for this MC. I've never used one before for the above reasons... is it really not as bad as it seems?
PrinceRaven wrote: Durable, good for cleaning out troops, double templates don't care about cover saves, encourages your opponent to split their fire.
Opponent absolutely has to keep this away from his troops. Double flamer and then assault will destroy troop units and on Nids most durable platform. It will take a lot of shots to die and will be the focus if you march it forward straight at them - there is no distraction with wanting to shoot either in first turn; he will be running. 2+ armour and a cover save will make taking it's 6 wounds off very difficult and has potential for being a regen platform due to number of wounds. It's alll about target overload - if you have a pair of flyrants, a TFex, a tervigon and possibly a Mawloc/Crone or a Carnifex brood there is no way your opponenet can stop everything hitting their lines. If you can get say 5 out of 6 of your MCs into their deplyoment zone still alive (even if on 1 or 2 wounds) then game is generally then yours to lose ...
The race-specific ones are too random and dependant on situations to be functional - one relies on you to have forests on the field, one relies on you to take wounds, one relies on you to get into challenges with enemy characters.
Personal - seems to have too much overlap with things you already have or seems too situational - counter attack? Not so much on nids. Furious charge? Way to duplicate the glands you bought. Two of the results are nice but 2/6 is meh.
Command - Some nice options in here - the use of the Warlord's leadership is an absolute dud of a trait but the rest are solid - Intimidating Presence doubles nicely with Psychic Scream and the Horror, The Dust of a Thousand Worlds, Master of Vanguard and Coordinated Assault help push the foot-slogging advance fast.
Strategic - I prefer this simply because there's so much utility. Ruins are the most common terrain feature I've seen so that is gold for the few units that don't have MTC, deciding to Night Fight is GOLD for Tyranids and the Reserves/Outflanking game is one Tyrands excel at (Lictors, Mawlocs, Trygons, Genestealers, Raveners, Anything with Wings, Rippers, Hive Commander) - anything that amplifies this is good. Whether it's rerolling your own reserves to get things to come on when you want (failed or successful, so Lictors might see a use here as beacons - oh lordy, imagine an Assassin Brood - 5 lictors and Deathleaper pop up, you then reroll any successful ones for your DSers and suddenly your opponent has 6 beacons of no-scatter he has to wipe out fast!), putting a penalty on enemy reserves to play the numbers game or getting the result you want on your outflankers....
PrinceRaven wrote: I've been testing out the Tyranid Warlord traits, awesome when you roll Linchpin or the FNP one, meh if you roll anything else.
I've had great success with the book traits, always keeps my opponent on their toes.
I still like book traits too - all 3 have their uses but I've been sticking to personal traits. Usually we play BAO style - 1 roll to determine the number then we pick from the 3 charts. It seems more fair for both players to not get stuck with a crap trait.
So LVO results are coming in from Torrent of Fire and although Nids did not make the final table they did have a few decent lists with winning records. They allowed both the old codex and the new codex and the new codex lists won at a higher percentage.
They 15-11 after day one ( not spectacular but we are learning the new codex). Also some of the best players are still evaluating Nids and not yet playing them - no offense to those that did field them.
The Harpy is great for infantry blobs but lacks the utility of a Crone and glancing vehicles with tentaclids in high volume feels great. The strength 8 vector strike works against pretty much everything in the game, especially Crisis Suits and Wraithknights, let alone Marines.
The Harpy is great for infantry blobs but lacks the utility of a Crone and glancing vehicles with tentaclids in high volume feels great. The strength 8 vector strike works against pretty much everything in the game, especially Crisis Suits and Wraithknights, let alone Marines.
I would go with 2 Crone/1 Harpy. The vector strikes and tentaclids of the crone are great, and the drool cannon ignores cover - awesome. However, the huge base (5" oval, if not 6") means that to successfully vector strike a 1" infantry model you must begin movement within approx. 15" of the target unit to clear it. That's hard to do when the enemy is bogged down with lots of infantry models - this is where the Harpy comes in. Paired with a mawloc or biovores, the large blasts can really clear areas for the crones to swoop into and do their damage as well. Also, it is cheaper (though I recommend giving the harpy cluster spines for +15, as it adds another useful large blast to it's fusillade).
Does anyone know if there have been Battlescribe or Army Builder updates with the new Tyranid codex? I've become exceptionally lazy when it comes to list building.
streamdragon wrote: Does anyone know if there have been Battlescribe or Army Builder updates with the new Tyranid codex? I've become exceptionally lazy when it comes to list building.
Try Quartermaster. It runs on my phone and my ipad, and i love it.
streamdragon wrote: Does anyone know if there have been Battlescribe or Army Builder updates with the new Tyranid codex? I've become exceptionally lazy when it comes to list building.
Try Quartermaster. It runs on my phone and my ipad, and i love it.
I haven't checked the battlescribe repositories in a long while - but they may have been updated by now. Just refresh the XML on your app and see, i guess.
streamdragon wrote: Does anyone know if there have been Battlescribe or Army Builder updates with the new Tyranid codex? I've become exceptionally lazy when it comes to list building.
Battlescribe has updated nids in their files. Army Builder doesn't yet.
Battlescribe was updated like 3 days after the codex dropped! I was very impressed with the speed it went up. I only use it for quickly drafting out ideas now. I do my final lists from codex to paper.
Assessing units based on their relative level of nerf/buff is not a good way to assess them. Tervigons would seem unplayable; yet, they're still a really solid choice as a 1-of to provide Synapse and scoring. So I like stranglehorns too but I would use them on Harpies myself.
Not a fan of your Tyrant ... honestly a Flyrant is one of the better AA units we have. I like the 2x TL devourer. And I use the same on my Carnis.
felixcat wrote: Not a fan of your Tyrant ... honestly a Flyrant is one of the better AA units we have. I like the 2x TL devourer. And I use the same on my Carnis.
I will say, there is next to nil on flyers and FMCs in my meta, and I do have the tl quad icarus too.
I have had massive success with my redoubt so far. Oddly enough I still run it with dbl flyrants. Mostly to allow me to keep control of the not so friendly skies.
I have not tried it with the battle cannon yet. I tend to need both Icarus cannons because of all of the flyers in my meta.
Roci wrote: I have had massive success with my redoubt so far. Oddly enough I still run it with dbl flyrants. Mostly to allow me to keep control of the not so friendly skies.
I have not tried it with the battle cannon yet. I tend to need both Icarus cannons because of all of the flyers in my meta.
Running one lascannon means the magos spirit becomes necessary.
Deshkar wrote: 6th Ed Tyranid Record at LVO:
WWW: 1
WWD: 1
WWL: 4
Be awesome if the generals would post up Battle Reports, even if they only had time to post up thier third round matchup (which at that point should be a guarenteed tough fight) it would make for a great read.
SHA games are hit and miss here. If I can use the rules, I take Magos as an auto include.
Triple flyers, flying circus and wraithwing are common for me to face so being able to put down two flyers in any turn is great. I did want to try the battle cannon because I'm starting to see more crons.. so more av13... and played two LR the other day...
I would go with 2 Crone/1 Harpy. The vector strikes and tentaclids of the crone are great, and the drool cannon ignores cover - awesome. However, the huge base (5" oval, if not 6") means that to successfully vector strike a 1" infantry model you must begin movement within approx. 15" of the target unit to clear it. That's hard to do when the enemy is bogged down with lots of infantry models - this is where the Harpy comes in. Paired with a mawloc or biovores, the large blasts can really clear areas for the crones to swoop into and do their damage as well. Also, it is cheaper (though I recommend giving the harpy cluster spines for +15, as it adds another useful large blast to it's fusillade).
Thats true enough. But I can easily trade an HVC for a ST on one or both Tyrants if I'm up against infantry. I think it boils down to in a TAC situation the Crones are effective against anything, why a Harpy is stuck against Infantry only.
PrinceRaven wrote: Durable, good for cleaning out troops, double templates don't care about cover saves, encourages your opponent to split their fire.
Opponent absolutely has to keep this away from his troops. Double flamer and then assault will destroy troop units and on Nids most durable platform. It will take a lot of shots to die and will be the focus if you march it forward straight at them - there is no distraction with wanting to shoot either in first turn; he will be running. 2+ armour and a cover save will make taking it's 6 wounds off very difficult and has potential for being a regen platform due to number of wounds. It's alll about target overload - if you have a pair of flyrants, a TFex, a tervigon and possibly a Mawloc/Crone or a Carnifex brood there is no way your opponenet can stop everything hitting their lines. If you can get say 5 out of 6 of your MCs into their deplyoment zone still alive (even if on 1 or 2 wounds) then game is generally then yours to lose ...
Hmmm, Always seemed not so useful to me but perhaps I've misjudged them. My usual 40K night is tomorrow and I don't think anyone will mind if I proxy them before I buy... what are the usual options people take on the Tyrannofex?
PrinceRaven wrote: Durable, good for cleaning out troops, double templates don't care about cover saves, encourages your opponent to split their fire.
Opponent absolutely has to keep this away from his troops. Double flamer and then assault will destroy troop units and on Nids most durable platform. It will take a lot of shots to die and will be the focus if you march it forward straight at them - there is no distraction with wanting to shoot either in first turn; he will be running. 2+ armour and a cover save will make taking it's 6 wounds off very difficult and has potential for being a regen platform due to number of wounds. It's alll about target overload - if you have a pair of flyrants, a TFex, a tervigon and possibly a Mawloc/Crone or a Carnifex brood there is no way your opponenet can stop everything hitting their lines. If you can get say 5 out of 6 of your MCs into their deplyoment zone still alive (even if on 1 or 2 wounds) then game is generally then yours to lose ...
Hmmm, Always seemed not so useful to me but perhaps I've misjudged them. My usual 40K night is tomorrow and I don't think anyone will mind if I proxy them before I buy... what are the usual options people take on the Tyrannofex?
Stock acid spray + dessicator larvae or Shreddershard beetles...regeneration is up to you...that's all.
Ok, so this is a recap of Tyranids at the LVOGT just this past weekend. I don't really know the lists, but I will tell you what I do know.
First off, new Tyranids went W23-L17-D2 to finish .575. That's very respectable. Eldar/Dark Eldar was the winningest army with .808 Win-Loss ratio.
Old Tyranids went W6-L4 (2 players only) to finish .600.
Top Tyranid player was Cooper Waddell (aka LaJollaGrad). He ended up 24th Overall with a 4-1 record, with his only loss going against Tau. BTW, Cooper is perhaps one of the best Tyranid players here on the West Coast. He is the only Tyranid player to have won a 2-day GT in recent memory (in 5th Edition).
2nd best Tyranid player was Team Zero Comp member Geoff Robinson (aka InControl of StarCraft fame), who ended up 31st. Geoff is actually fairly new to Warhammer and is the only top player to use the old Tyranids. He also went 4-1 with his only loss being against Goatboy's Daemons. He didn't play against Tau or Eldar.
Probably the Tyranid player who did the best was Allan Hernandez (aka Blackmoor), who finished 39th with 3-1-1. He had arguably the toughest matchups, with a draw against a vicious serpent-spam Mechdar list with 2 wraithknights and a win against Eldar+Tau in round #4. He finally lost to Seer Council Deldar played by the eventual winner of the the whole tournament, Alex Fennell.
Jay Woodcock, a member of DaBoyz, took 49th Overall with a 3-2 record. Jay is another top-notch Tyranid player who once made it to the Top 8 at Adepticon. He actually beat Tau, but lost to Necrons and Cooper's Tyranids.
Not far behind Jay was Pete Setchell from the Dice Abides. He ended up 52nd overall also with a 3-2 record. His 2 losses came at the hands of Eldar and, ironically, Cooper's Tyranids as well (yes, Cooper's bugs beat 2 other Tyranid armies).
Finally we have Vince Wiebert (aka Bigpig), finishing also with a 3-2 record and 59th overall. His 2 losses came against Eldar and Chaos Daemons.
Now some pictures of some nice bugs:
Jay Woodcock's beautiful Tyranids.
Chuck's bugs. He actually ran 1 Tyranid Prime for his HQ and no flyrants.
I hate to say it, but the best Nid player played 5 matches, beat another Nid player two times and then went 2W-1L vs non-Nid lists and in those 3 games never fought the armies with the highest win percentages (Eldar/DE).
Not saying he isn't a great player, but it sounds like he had an optimal draw. Even then one of the best Nid players bearly cracked the top 25.
Gloomfang wrote: I hate to say it, but the best Nid player played 5 matches, beat another Nid player two times and then went 2W-1L vs non-Nid lists and in those 3 games never fought the armies with the highest win percentages (Eldar/DE).
Not saying he isn't a great player, but it sounds like he had an optimal draw. Even then one of the best Nid players bearly cracked the top 25.
Not filling me with warm fuzzies.
So what were you expecting? Were you seriously expecting Tyranids to usurp Tau and Eldar as the top army? Let's be realistic here. Tyranids performed admirably for a so-called "underpowered" codex. Of the 11 Tyranid players in the tournament, 7 finished above average. The new Tyranids on the whole finished above average (.575), beating out armies like Dark Eldar (.523), IG (.558), Daemons (.538), Space Marines (.503, the most-represented army in the tournament) and all of the Marine army variants. In terms of pure armies, only Tau, Eldar and Necrons finished higher. And Tyranids are still new. It' only been out for about 1 month before the tournament. Most people aren't even running optimized tyranids yet.
Honestly, I am impressed with the early progress of bugs. They will only get better once Tyranid players start to learn more about them. They are by no means a top-tier army. However, I fully believe that they can give even the top-tier armies a good fight. Blackmoor just gave us a glimpse of that.
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Niiai wrote: Cool beans. are there any lists of what the different players played?
You can kind of judge from some of my photos what some of the players there were running. Mainly double-flyrants and 1-2 hive crones as a basis.
Blackmoor's list went something like this:
2x Flyrants, 1x Hive Commander
Tervigon
30x Gants, some devourers
Another large unit of gants with some devourers
10x Gants (hide in bastion)
I'm not sure quite what to make of the LVO results but there are some very pretty armies up there. It also looks like the Exocrine is getting a good outing.
Building on my low-Synapse idea from a few pages back, I've written a first-draft to give an idea of how I would go about it. As mentioned, the whole point is that Scoring is irrelevant until the late game and so by taking independent Troops, you gain reliability, Without troop-dependence, you don't really need much Synapse at all and so can afford all-out killiness.
*- I had some points left over at the end and figured this was an appropriate use. Very much a non-necessary addition.
^- If you are happy with the use of dataslates, there is no reason these could not be upgraded to Manufactorum.
Venomthrope takes the Bastion and confers delicious Shrouded to everyone. I'll be honest in saying that I have no idea if he is still susceptible to Instinctive Behaviour but even if he is, it's probably worthwhile. All else fails you can upgrade some 'Stealers to Warriors and rely on the Bastion blocking LoS.
Genestealers do not Infiltrate, they do not even deploy. Reserve, Outflank if appropriate, their one-and-only job is to survive until Turn 5 and claim an objective.
As mentioned it is a first draft and so there has to be some possible improvements. The Tyrant Guard is totally expendable and could happily be flushed away to provide an upgrade to Warrior-squads, or some Regenerate.
Does seem that good players can wring a competitive game out of the Codex, but there is already a worrying mono build look to the lists and, pretty much as with the last codex, when we Nid players get a result in a game we've earned it the hard way.
Lists appear to be dual flyrant, tervigon, 30 gants, crone/harpy/mawloc and then a sprinkle of individual preference. So for a 1,750 list you're looking at 1,200 pts of indentical lists, which is what we feared when we saw the codex. Shame really.
Tervigon
30x Gants, some devourers
Another large unit of gants with some devourers
10x Gants (hide in bastion)
2x Hive Crones
2x Mawlocs
Bastion w/Comms Relay
My list was:
Hive Tyrant
Wings
Hive Commander
TL Devourer
Hive Tyrant
Wings
Hive Commander
TL Devourer
Tervagon
30 Termagants w/15 Devourers (Outflanking)
25 Termagants w/12 Devourers (Outflanking)
10 Termagants
Hive Crone
Hive Crone
Mawloc
Mawloc
Bastion
Comms Relay
The army is meant to hide behind the bastion, and then fly off my FMC on the bottom of turn #1, and them on turn #2 I hit them hard with everything and overwhelm them, and then assault on turn #3
Game #1 I tied Mech Eldar. I had no answer for his 2 wraithknights that were killing 2 TMCs a turn, but I was able to knock out his wave serpents thanks to hive tyrants with onslaught getting rear shots, termagants shooting 45 devourer shots into rear armor, and hive crones vector striking. I tied because I screwed up turn #3 and my 2 crones vector struck a wraithknight when I should have vector striked his farseer for warlord.
Game #2 I tabled a mech blood angles army that had no answer for FMC,
Game #3 Beat a Grey Knight army. It was relic so this is the one game I started my gaunts on the table, and they punished my opponent when he tried to pick up the relic.
Game #4 I played Eldar/Tau. He killed all my synapse on the top of turn #2. I then hit him with all of my turn #2 reserves and crippled his shooting. He had too many targets to kill anything of mine at that point. On turn #3 he had 4 jetbike squads so my mawlocs assaulted 2 of the squads, my termagants shot another bike squad. and the last was killed with a crone vector strike. He then only had a unit of kroot left for troops and my other squad of termagants killed them with snap shots since they were having instinctive behavior issues (the kroot were down to only 5 models from an earlier drool cannon). With out any troops I just needed one of my termagaunst to make there IB checks, and one did. (I had a fearless Termagaunst squad in my bastion that I could have just walked out of if to hold an objective if one of the other gants didn't pass their IB check so I was still okay).
Game #5 I was on table #6 playing to get into the final round against seer council. On turn #3 he did not get fortune off because otSiTW and I got a paroxism on him for a -3 WS. So with a 2+/4+ non-rerollable save I shot 2 Hive Tyrants, 10 Gaunsts, Drool Cannon, and the mawlocs blast templates at him and only killed 2 models (should have killed 4), Then I assaulted with the Tyrants, the Tervigon and a Crone and he made a ton of 4+ Invulnerable saves and I only killed 3 more of the seer council and at that point he hit-and-ran out of combat and all of my flyers were on the ground and he shot the crap out of them for my one loss to the player who won the whole tournament. :(
I was Blackmoor's round 3 opponent. His devourer gaunts were the star players for sure. I couldn't handle that many dice coming my way at all. I even tried to tell Blackmoor it didn't count if he couldn't roll all the shots in one throw or hold all the dice in his hand without dropping them, but even that didn't help me!
I was predominantly infantry grey knights with mordrak + ghost knights and really his big bugs were pretty ineffectual as the devourer gaunts just did all the work.
The two big plays were mordrak (rolling scoring as his warlord trait) dropping on the relic first turn in an attempt for a quick getaway with the relic. I had been using mordrak to bring a warp rift librarian and try for first blood but I decided to try to be tricksy this game. Mordrak and crew were promptly shot off the board first turn by gaunts.
Next, I tried to move some GKTs up to get the relic. They took fire in blackmoor's turn, followe by overwatch fire in my turn and a failed charge, to then get shot again in Blackmoor's turn. Rinse and repeat and that's pretty much how the game went.
So what were you expecting? Were you seriously expecting Tyranids to usurp Tau and Eldar as the top army? Let's be realistic here. Tyranids performed admirably for a so-called "underpowered" codex. Of the 11 Tyranid players in the tournament, 7 finished above average. The new Tyranids on the whole finished above average (.575), beating out armies like Dark Eldar (.523), IG (.558), Daemons (.538), Space Marines (.503, the most-represented army in the tournament) and all of the Marine army variants. In terms of pure armies, only Tau, Eldar and Necrons finished higher. And Tyranids are still new. It' only been out for about 1 month before the tournament. Most people aren't even running optimized tyranids yet.
Honestly, I am impressed with the early progress of bugs. They will only get better once Tyranid players start to learn more about them. They are by no means a top-tier army. However, I fully believe that they can give even the top-tier armies a good fight. Blackmoor just gave us a glimpse of that.
No I wasn't expecting much to be honest. I had some vague hope that I was missing something that better players than me had been able to find. The fact that many people (myself included) feel that Nids need a fortification of some sort just feels wrong for a "eat all the things" army. As long as they don’t pull the same FAQ stuff they pulled when 6th came out with Nids and fortifications. Lets face it the armies we did well against had older co:dices in most cases. When IG and Orks get their new Codices I’ll expect us to be ranked with the rest of the villain Codices (Demons and Chaos SM). Orks usually do pretty well with updates as they are a starter set army and there is enough ork love at GW that they should be OK.
I don't want an easy button. I want to go against a player of equal skill with an equal point army and not start at a disadvantage because of my army.
Game #5 sounds like an epic fight that could (should?) have gone the other way and just didn't. Can you imagine how awesome it would have been to see a tyranid player make the top 8?
Good showing Blackmoor, despite the loss you had it sounds like you represented the hive mind quite well.
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JPong wrote: I have been looking around but unable to find it, does anyone know the player count at LVO?
Some of the lists appear to have the flyers as harpys instead of crones. Did any lists actually run the harpy instead of the crone? I'm really curious how that model did in tournament, i'm thinking of switching my anti tank roll to that model. Heavy venom cannons for hunting, spore cysts for infantry. I kind of like the flexibility.
Blackmoor wrote: Game #4 I played Eldar/Tau. He killed all my synapse on the top of turn #2. I then hit him with all of my turn #2 reserves and crippled his shooting. He had too many targets to kill anything of mine at that point. On turn #3 he had 4 jetbike squads so my mawlocs assaulted 2 of the squads, my termagants shot another bike squad. and the last was killed with a crone vector strike. He then only had a unit of kroot left for troops and my other squad of termagants killed them with snap shots since they were having instinctive behavior issues (the kroot were down to only 5 models from an earlier drool cannon). With out any troops I just needed one of my termagaunst to make there IB checks, and one did. (I had a fearless Termagaunst squad in my bastion that I could have just walked out of if to hold an objective if one of the other gants didn't pass their IB check so I was still okay).
I'd like more information about this game. What in general did you opponent's list look like? Your turn 2 reserves were: 2 Mawlocs, 2 Crones?, and 27 devil gaunts plus 28 flesborers?. What were the able to take out on turn 2? How lucky were you in outflank / deepstrike rolls?
If you faced that list repeatedly would you generally do better or worse than you did in this one matchup?
Also, did you always bring your crones in from reserves?
Chuck's bugs. He actually ran 1 Tyranid Prime for his HQ and no flyrants.
So I'm curious about this list. This is what I see. HQ Tyranid Prime Tervigon
Elite Venom
Troops: Tervigon 30 TGaunts (not pictured)
Fast Attacks: Crone Crone
Heavy Support: 2 Dakka Cfexes Exocrine Exocrine
That is 1630, so there are other upgrades or units that I can't spot. It looks interesting, but also wonky. He apparently didn't do great, but I am still fascinated by the list. What does everyone else think?
2 used the old dex. Geof (Incontrol) and a Mikko. The rest played with the new dex.
Blackmoor's list is very similar to one of the two lists that I'm currently running. Except at 1850, I squeezed in 3 Biovores and drop some devilgants.
I must say the Bugs did rather well for a fresh dex that has been severely ridiculed.
Blackmoor: Curious to how your mawlocs did, mine has been seriously inconsistent.
That is 1630, so there are other upgrades or units that I can't spot. It looks interesting, but also wonky. He apparently didn't do great, but I am still fascinated by the list. What does everyone else think?
Hmm, was it 1850? I'm curious about this. I can only thing the way he ramped up about 220 points was through Adrenal Glands and Regeneration. Looks like the T-Prime has a Norn Crown though....
Niiai wrote: How did the mawlocks perform blackmore? It looks to be a very cheap source of T6 3+ save in the game, even if their attacks are unreliable.
Blackmoor: Curious to how your mawlocs did, mine has been seriously inconsistent.
The answer is that they did great!
Most people look at them and all they see is the strength 6, AP2 template that they put down. We all know that it only has a 33% chance to hit so it is not all that effective. But when they deep strike into the middle of my opponent's army when I am also outflanking 55 termagants, and flying over with 2 crones, and 2 hive tyrants they do not have the firepower to kill them, and then they get to assault on turn #3. 140 points is a bargain for a T6, 6 wound TMC that ends up in the middle of my opponents army. If you think about all of the good armies out there, they're very few that can kill them in assault. Assault is dead and so no one has anything that can beat them except for a few units (wraithknights). They have the same roll as trygons, but you lose 2 attacks, and gain the Terror From The Deep ability, and save 50 points.
They also gave me line breaker several times, and on turn #4 I often burrowed them and then on turn #5 I hit scoring units holding objectives. Even if I scatter off and do not hit the unit that is holding the objective I can just run back to it to at least contest the objective.
ruminator wrote: Does seem that good players can wring a competitive game out of the Codex, but there is already a worrying mono build look to the lists and, pretty much as with the last codex, when we Nid players get a result in a game we've earned it the hard way.
Lists appear to be dual flyrant, tervigon, 30 gants, crone/harpy/mawloc and then a sprinkle of individual preference. So for a 1,750 list you're looking at 1,200 pts of indentical lists, which is what we feared when we saw the codex. Shame really.
Unfortunately, this edition of Nids have lost some flexibility compared to last edition, especially with the loss of mycetic spores. So in a way, you will see many lists use the same core units, with the main variance being in the Fast Attack and Heavy Support options. So yeah, mono-builds will continue to pre-dominate competitive Tyranid builds. For that, we've got to blame the writers. They did an excellent job for Tau/Eldar/Daemons/Marines in terms of variety of competitive builds, but they've left us lacking for bugs.
Blackmoor wrote: Game #5 I was on table #6 playing to get into the final round against seer council. On turn #3 he did not get fortune off because otSiTW and I got a paroxism on him for a -3 WS. So with a 2+/4+ non-rerollable save I shot 2 Hive Tyrants, 10 Gaunsts, Drool Cannon, and the mawlocs blast templates at him and only killed 2 models (should have killed 4), Then I assaulted with the Tyrants, the Tervigon and a Crone and he made a ton of 4+ Invulnerable saves and I only killed 3 more of the seer council and at that point he hit-and-ran out of combat and all of my flyers were on the ground and he shot the crap out of them for my one loss to the player who won the whole tournament. :(
Congrats on making it this far. It's no shame to be knocked out by the best player in the tournament. I myself got knocked out in Game #5 by the 2nd best player and Runner-up in the tournament.
BTW, this reminds me of a game against a certain person where I threw my army with 2 Iron Armed TMC's into his Draigowing and they got repelled back.
No I wasn't expecting much to be honest. I had some vague hope that I was missing something that better players than me had been able to find. The fact that many people (myself included) feel that Nids need a fortification of some sort just feels wrong for a "eat all the things" army. As long as they don’t pull the same FAQ stuff they pulled when 6th came out with Nids and fortifications. Lets face it the armies we did well against had older co:dices in most cases. When IG and Orks get their new Codices I’ll expect us to be ranked with the rest of the villain Codices (Demons and Chaos SM). Orks usually do pretty well with updates as they are a starter set army and there is enough ork love at GW that they should be OK.
I don't want an easy button. I want to go against a player of equal skill with an equal point army and not start at a disadvantage because of my army.
Unfortunately, that's just the way things are now. The Tyranid codex IMO wasn't very welly written. It just isn't externally balanced against some of the armies, especially the top-ranked armies currently. On the flip-side, it will also seem like a monster to some of the other armies as well (just like Tau/Eldar/Venom-spam may seem like monster builds to us). Some battles will just be uphill ones for us. There is no sugar-coating this fact.
But if you like a challenge, if you like to really exercise your brain muscles, then Tyranids are the army for you. We can still overcome the bad matchups. We just have to work much harder/smarter than our opponents....but the rewards for doing so is so much greater IMO, especially when you can overcome a bad matchup.
Blackmoor wrote: Game #4 I played Eldar/Tau. He killed all my synapse on the top of turn #2. I then hit him with all of my turn #2 reserves and crippled his shooting. He had too many targets to kill anything of mine at that point. On turn #3 he had 4 jetbike squads so my mawlocs assaulted 2 of the squads, my termagants shot another bike squad. and the last was killed with a crone vector strike. He then only had a unit of kroot left for troops and my other squad of termagants killed them with snap shots since they were having instinctive behavior issues (the kroot were down to only 5 models from an earlier drool cannon). With out any troops I just needed one of my termagaunst to make there IB checks, and one did. (I had a fearless Termagaunst squad in my bastion that I could have just walked out of if to hold an objective if one of the other gants didn't pass their IB check so I was still okay).
I'd like more information about this game. What in general did you opponent's list look like? Your turn 2 reserves were: 2 Mawlocs, 2 Crones?, and 27 devil gaunts plus 28 flesborers?. What were the able to take out on turn 2? How lucky were you in outflank / deepstrike rolls?
If you faced that list repeatedly would you generally do better or worse than you did in this one matchup?
Also, did you always bring your crones in from reserves?
His opponent was also the guy who beat me in this tournament:
I think he brought a very similar list to the one he used against me. Those Dark Reapers with Buffmander is a nightmare for Tyranids. Prescienced S8 AP3 shots with Monster Hunter and which ignores cover due to the Buffmander will erase 1 TMC a turn if it's on the ground.
Ifurita wrote: Curious. Any idea how many of the Tyranid players were using old codex vs new? Ballpark? There were given the option to use one or the other, correct?
That is 1630, so there are other upgrades or units that I can't spot. It looks interesting, but also wonky. He apparently didn't do great, but I am still fascinated by the list. What does everyone else think?
Chuck is a local player (to my area) and a very new player as well. Not pictured are his gribblies. He might have been running another 30 gants to make his 2nd Tervigon a troop choice as well.
Unfortunately, without running any Flyrants, he didn't do so well. BTW, you may want to remove the pointage for lone, non-upgraded models on the lists. It is against Dakka's policy.
Blackmoor wrote: Game #4 I played Eldar/Tau. He killed all my synapse on the top of turn #2. I then hit him with all of my turn #2 reserves and crippled his shooting. He had too many targets to kill anything of mine at that point. On turn #3 he had 4 jetbike squads so my mawlocs assaulted 2 of the squads, my termagants shot another bike squad. and the last was killed with a crone vector strike. He then only had a unit of kroot left for troops and my other squad of termagants killed them with snap shots since they were having instinctive behavior issues (the kroot were down to only 5 models from an earlier drool cannon). With out any troops I just needed one of my termagaunst to make there IB checks, and one did. (I had a fearless Termagaunst squad in my bastion that I could have just walked out of if to hold an objective if one of the other gants didn't pass their IB check so I was still okay).
I'd like more information about this game. What in general did you opponent's list look like? Your turn 2 reserves were: 2 Mawlocs, 2 Crones?, and 27 devil gaunts plus 28 flesborers?. What were the able to take out on turn 2? How lucky were you in outflank / deepstrike rolls?
If you faced that list repeatedly would you generally do better or worse than you did in this one matchup?
Thanks JY2 for the link!
Farseer - Jetbike
Tau Commander - Command & Control Node (CCN), Multi-Spectrum Sensor Suite (MSS), Neuroweb System Jammer (NSJ), Puretide Engram Neurochip (PEN)
Riptide - Early Warning Override, Velocity Tracker, Ion Accelerator, TL-Smart Missile System
7x Dark Reaper - 7x Starshot Missiles
3x War Walkers - Scatter Lasers + Starcannons
3x War Walkers - Scatter Lasers + Starcannons
I guess a lot of people want to know about my games, so I will write up full batreps.
Also, did you always bring your crones in from reserves?
Most of the time I started them on the table, sometimes I didn't. I have 10 units so I have to start with at least 5 units on the table and can only put 5 in reserve. Since the mawlocs and the termagants go into reserve I normally started with the Tyrants hiding behind the bastion, 10 termagants in the bastion, and the Tervigon in cover for 4 units so I need one more on the table so at least one crone starts there too. It all changes though due to LOS blocking terrain, and the firepower of my opponent, and if I have first turn or not. In my last game I started the mawlocs on the tables and the crones in reserve because he went first, had a lot of firepower, and there was not much LOS blocking terrain.
Unfortunately, that's just the way things are now. The Tyranid codex IMO wasn't very welly written. It just isn't externally balanced against some of the armies, especially the top-ranked armies currently. On the flip-side, it will also seem like a monster to some of the other armies as well (just like Tau/Eldar/Venom-spam may seem like monster builds to us). Some battles will just be uphill ones for us. There is no sugar-coating this fact.
But if you like a challenge, if you like to really exercise your brain muscles, then Tyranids are the army for you. We can still overcome the bad matchups. We just have to work much harder/smarter than our opponents....but the rewards for doing so is so much greater IMO, especially when you can overcome a bad matchup.
Just wondering in the future if you might let Tyranids use the dataslate formations as we have no option for allies. Not like the first one was broken or anything. More tactical options aren't a bad thing.
jy2 wrote: Unfortunately, that's just the way things are now. The Tyranid codex IMO wasn't very welly written. It just isn't externally balanced against some of the armies, especially the top-ranked armies currently. On the flip-side, it will also seem like a monster to some of the other armies as well (just like Tau/Eldar/Venom-spam may seem like monster builds to us)
And the only true problem there is that Tau and Eldar just happen to be the most common.
I can't tell you how many lists I've built that are strong hearty lists...until you consider Tau.
Blackmoor I think you are on the right track... Devilgants are really good for troops. Now if one of your Tyrants had the Reaper it could have potentially trashed those pesky WKs. Having lots of broods arriving on turn 2 to the party is where it's at. I am a big fan of the Alpha Warrior and big genestealer broods.
Dozer Blades wrote: I am a big fan of the Alpha Warrior and big genestealer broods.
I have just started playing this out...my advice...go for more ablative wounds...no lord. Give the Prime (BS,Adrenals, Toxin, Hooks) and he'll be cheap enough for list building but still a force to be reckoned with.
I guess a lot of people want to know about my games, so I will write up full batreps.
A lot of people are looking for guidance with the new Nids right now, and given that you had some success with them in a really competitive setting, your experiences could be really useful to us Nid players trying to understand the new book.
Not really sure why people sink points into the bastion for synapse/venomthrope. Wasted points imo, expecially when you should be moving forward and putting as much pressure as you can up front. 7 (4 flying) monsters and 74+ small gribblies pushing up definitely does that.
My loss came to Daniel Hesselberg (captain of the Swedish ETC team) with his Tau/red scorpions. Deployment type was hammer and anvil. Too much ground to cover while getting lit up.
I definitely can optimize the list a bit more, but have found that little to no upgrades make a bunch of room for more bugs, who hold their own with base weapons/equipment.
Not really sure why people sink points into the bastion for synapse/venomthrope. Wasted points imo, expecially when you should be moving forward and putting as much pressure as you can up front. 7 (4 flying) monsters and 74+ small gribblies pushing up definitely does that.
I tried to make hormagaunts work, but my opponents just killed my synapse and then they started to eat each other. In my next list I am thinking about dropping the 10 termagaunts and replacing them with 15 points hormagaunts with toxin sacs to kill wraithlords and to help out in assault.
I hate to pay 95 points for a bastion but it had a lot of roles:
#1. The most important is Comms Relay. I need to hit hard on turn #2 and to make sure to overwhelm my opponents I have to make sure my reserves come on when I need them.
#2. You never know if you will have any LOS blocking terrain and the first turn is when my Tyrants are on the ground and they are the most vulnerable. With the bastion I could almost always hide them.
#3. I can put a squad of termagaunts in it and keep them safe from harm to make sure I have a troop at the end of the game.
#4. Since you place objectives after the bastion I just drop one just outside the door. Since any unit in the bastion is fearless I never had to worry about them taking IB checks and they can just disembark any time I wanted them to and hold that objective.
ductvader wrote: Personally...I'd swap the second flyrant for an adrenal prime...attach to Hormagaunts and run!
That is conventional internet wisdom... The Broodlord is a game winner as it's scoring and can absorb a lot of punishment . I don't know how many games I because a line Broodlord held an objective. They also hit really hard in melee and can actually do something versus WKs and Tides.
ductvader wrote: Personally...I'd swap the second flyrant for an adrenal prime...attach to Hormagaunts and run!
That is conventional internet wisdom... The Broodlord is a game winner as it's scoring and can absorb a lot of punishment . I don't know how many games I because a line Broodlord held an objective. They also hit really hard in melee and can actually do something versus WKs and Tides.
I didn't mention a Broodlord above.
I love brood lords...I own four and use them all the time...but found him not to be worth it when the sole purpose for stealers was prime delivery.
Not really sure why people sink points into the bastion for synapse/venomthrope. Wasted points imo, expecially when you should be moving forward and putting as much pressure as you can up front. 7 (4 flying) monsters and 74+ small gribblies pushing up definitely does that.
I tried to make hormagaunts work, but my opponents just killed my synapse and then they started to eat each other. In my next list I am thinking about dropping the 10 termagaunts and replacing them with 15 points hormagaunts with toxin sacs to kill wraithlords and to help out in assault.
I hate to pay 95 points for a bastion but it had a lot of roles:
#1. The most important is Comms Relay. I need to hit hard on turn #2 and to make sure to overwhelm my opponents I have to make sure my reserves come on when I need them.
#2. You never know if you will have any LOS blocking terrain and the first turn is when my Tyrants are on the ground and they are the most vulnerable. With the bastion I could almost always hide them.
#3. I can put a squad of termagaunts in it and keep them safe from harm to make sure I have a troop at the end of the game.
#4. Since you place objectives after the bastion I just drop one just outside the door. Since any unit in the bastion is fearless I never had to worry about them taking IB checks and they can just disembark any time I wanted them to and hold that objective.
Hormagaunts are just a round of cover. Expecting more of them is probably expecting too much,. But in that role, at that cost? i mean, how can ya' lose really.
Rotary wrote: How are the single model venomthrope broods holding up during play? It must not be a total first blood weakness if so many people are bringing them.
Haven't had one die yet...most can be hidden...outside of no LoS necessary weapon ranges...there's always a wall somewhere to hide behind...which usually means you're granting a 2+
The general tactic is to hide them in or behind a bastion. If your opponent can shoot at your Venomthropes it doesn't matter how many are in the unit, they're going to die.
Prime generally outflanks with one of the BL squads. Biovores go in the Redoubt to avoid IB.
The list has 7 scoring units.
I have been asked if my entire strategy is based on expensive models that are easy to kill, and it sort of is built around that. Sort of. More expensive models, but cheaper units. Its a combination of board control and forcing wasted points via overkill. 20 S5 shots can cost you 120 pts of vanilla hormigaunts or completely kill a unit of 5 genestealers that cost you 70pts.
Your opponent only has so many shots a turn. My list is built so I can lose about 500-700pts in turn 1 and that the other 1300-1500pts can be depended to keep my opponent trapped in his deployment zone and unable to seize objectives or fulfill objectives (my FA or HS are not part of the disposable section of my army).
The other obvious thing is the almost utter lack of synapse. However if you look at the units they are either high leadership (other than the Gargs and raveners), have no IB or both.
This 1999pt list has 13 infiltrators alone with 10 of them costing 70pts or less. That means that in most cases I have limited my opponent to doing very little damage before I can slam into him. I also have no MCs so that means that most of their high strength weaponry is going to go to waste. No flyers means that all that AA firepower is either wasted or overpriced. With some lists I can change the points equation to roughly 1999pt vs 1850pts based on the stuff they are taking that will do them very little good.
There are some lists that will cause me problems. Things like Servoskulls are very bad for this list. I also have a few problems with high AV mech spam. I also suck at Purge in most cases and have to go for the table.
Warboss
Shokk Attack Gun
2x 30 boyz w/ Power Klaw
1x 10 Stormboyz
12 Lootas in a Battlewagon
12 Burnas in a Battlewagon
Dakkajet
Deff Dread
My crones did pretty good. The first managed to clip a battlewagon for a VS, blew it up, and then drooled on the Lootas inside. I got damn lucky and they failed their morale and ran off the board. The second Crone clipped the Dakkajet and took it out with a VS on the way off the board.
My gaunts didn't do much but get in my opponent's way, which is pretty much what they were there for. The genestealers went into reserves and I tried to keep them off the board as long as I could with the relay. They didn't do a damn thing but score two objectives, which is exactly what they were there for.
One Trygon did nothing since I deployed it next to a 30-strong unit of boyz and just got chopped to death in CC... that was a pretty boneheaded play on my part, as I should've seen that happening *and* I could've used the synapse on another part of the board. The other Trygon took out the other Battlewagon from behind and killed the Deff Dread.
The Mawloc killed a total of 3 boyz with its deep strike since there really wasn't anything better to go for; it probably would've shored up its side of the board in CC but we called the game as there was no realistic way for my opponent to be able to draw by that point.
The Flyrant didn't do too much as I needed to bring it into a CC with the Stormboyz to keep them from getting into my DZ and messing things up. The Orks had Zagstruck in with the Stormboyz and kept making his LOS rolls, so I was tarpitted for far too long.
Prime generally outflanks with one of the BL squads. Biovores go in the Redoubt to avoid IB.
The list has 7 scoring units.
I have been asked if my entire strategy is based on expensive models that are easy to kill, and it sort of is built around that. Sort of. More expensive models, but cheaper units. Its a combination of board control and forcing wasted points via overkill. 20 S5 shots can cost you 120 pts of vanilla hormigaunts or completely kill a unit of 5 genestealers that cost you 70pts.
Your opponent only has so many shots a turn. My list is built so I can lose about 500-700pts in turn 1 and that the other 1300-1500pts can be depended to keep my opponent trapped in his deployment zone and unable to seize objectives or fulfill objectives (my FA or HS are not part of the disposable section of my army).
The other obvious thing is the almost utter lack of synapse. However if you look at the units they are either high leadership (other than the Gargs and raveners), have no IB or both.
This 1999pt list has 13 infiltrators alone with 10 of them costing 70pts or less. That means that in most cases I have limited my opponent to doing very little damage before I can slam into him. I also have no MCs so that means that most of their high strength weaponry is going to go to waste. No flyers means that all that AA firepower is either wasted or overpriced. With some lists I can change the points equation to roughly 1999pt vs 1850pts based on the stuff they are taking that will do them very little good.
There are some lists that will cause me problems. Things like Servoskulls are very bad for this list. I also have a few problems with high AV mech spam. I also suck at Purge in most cases and have to go for the table.
ETA: I stand corrected, it is legal to replace gun with a 2nd Melee weapon.
I am still dubious about the wisdom of it. It seems like a waste of points to put both RC and BS on a model. BS + ST or RC + ST maybe for the extra attack in CC. But having to pick one Melee weapon per combat round forces you to always forgo the benefits of one or the other.
Both set ups are perfectly legal... Plus there is definitely a point to taking 2 different CCWs (besides the +1 attack), as you can choose which one to attack with each assault phase.
So, i'm pressed for time and thus can't really write up a full bat-rep, but I thought i'd share the first of my experimental "All Genestealer Troops" game, as promised.
I was playing against a Necron player who used a list with two of their awesome flyers, some annihilation barges, and surprisingly numerous infantry (including the deep-strikers that mark targets). Hopefully you'll forgive the lack of details understanding that i'm still somewhat new to 40k and thus don't know other factions aside from C:SM, Orks, and my own 'Nids.
Heavy Support
Carnifex Brood(3)
- Carnifex(1): TL Devourers With Brainleech Worms(2),
- Carnifex(1): TL Devourers With Brainleech Worms(2),
- Carnifex(1): TL Devourers With Brainleech Worms(2),
T-Fex: Acid Spray, Stinger Salvo,
Exocrine: , Scything Talons,
My thought was that keeping all my Stealers in reserve gave me the flexibility to deploy them later to hold objectives back-field or elsewhere, OR should opportunities present where they wouldn't be my opponents optimal target, I could infiltrate them up table, and add a little more oomph.
You'd be surprised, but it worked reasonably well. My opponent spent a disproportionate amount of energy turns 1/2 to kill my Venoms, as I used them and the Gargoyles as a line right across my deployment to buy time. I had no doubt they would die, but they lasted long enough to do what they had to, IE let the bigger boys get right into the party.
And early lost Flyrant (my Warlord) fell to crappy dice, which meant my opponent shored up First-Blood and Warlord-kill early, but thanks to the game being Big Guns Never Tire, I essentially rolled the rest of the game, winning decisively.
Stealers not needing to worry about synapse meant I could legitimately commit to putting my stuff up table in a very aggressive way, and the Broodlord unit ended up being the only one I sent into the fray, where it happily tied up a big group of (?) Immortals (?), and contested an objective.
Only one game, yes, but I loved them and instantly felt I was having a better time than when I devoted so many resources to a Tervigon and its Gant tax.
Also of note, I wasn't in love with T-fex and would happily swap him out with a Mawloc if I owned one.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Incidentally: The amount of Dakka from three Dakkafex and my surviving Flyrant made my opponents flyers a non-issue. Those same Dakkafex (well the two alive at that point) also handily smashed barges left and right. I cannot see any Fex build other than Dakkafex right now, honestly.
I pulled the HG from my list. Mostly because the elite slot is full for me based on how my army runs. I "may" attempt to add them back in at some point but I doubt it.
So I have been playing a list with just one synapse source. I miss SitW but otherwise it performs well. I will quickly go down a list of units that have done well for me. Oh I have my FExstar list and a few others but they are not the one I field when I want to be highly competitive - they are fun but not as consistent. These mode;s have consisitently done well for me.
1) My elite slots are now filled by 5 Lictors. Okay. They are fragile. But they hit like a ton of bricks - 2 S5 shots and 5 S6 rending attacks on the charge. DSing them behind dev squads or vehicles and you get results. If you have Mawlocs they can work but you know it is okay if your Mawloc mishaps. On 83% of time you benefit from this anyway. Very flexible units able to infiltrat, outflank or DS and hit and run 3D6 to reposition. And do not forget their -1LD - good with broodlord or psychic scream.
2) I now use a Deathleaper as one of my HQs. Similar to Lictors of course but ... reducing LD on some ICs is just golden as a bonus.
3) Broodlord and stealers are now in all my lists. They are my troops of choice. Horror is good when you also have Lictors around. Again I love that I can deploy them as outdlankers or infiltarators. Best is that they need no synapse.
4) Bastion w/ comms goes in my lists. Of course I use models that DS and I use one squad of termagants that do not need synapse babaysitters. They are fearless in the Bastion. It is also good cover early. Win win.
5) My Hiv Crones now all have stigers. The extra ten points is well worth it against targets where my tentaclids are not wuite as useful or even after a vector strike. Ageainst Eldar almost an auto-include.
6) Malocs still impress me. I love mishaping with them and will attack parking lots if the target presents itself. Against Tau I feel an auto-include.
As for why I take bonesword and rending claws. I use the bonesword against high Toughness or multi-wound models or units that have a 3+ save. The rending claws are for vehicles or 2+save, mostly anti-mech though.
The new data slate is pictured in this weeks upcoming white dwarf. I hope this means it will be available for download Saturday. I'm crossing my fingers that we will see some useful upgrades to warrior broods in this one.
Just make deathspitters 24" range blast weapons again!!
I'm hoping for some sort of formation that will make my Trygon actually useful, and hopefully Raveners as well. A Carnifex brood formation would also be nice but I don't expect one in this upcoming dataslate, possibly the next one.
Amoras wrote:im noticing nowone is using Hive guard annymore, is the -1 bs that bad?
I always relied on themm to take out those nasty waveserpents/venoms and rhino;s.
There aren't nearly as many transports now, but if there are in your area, they should do fine.
As someone noted earlier, the 18" range of the Haywire version is sort of poopy too.
tetrisphreak wrote:The new data slate is pictured in this weeks upcoming white dwarf. I hope this means it will be available for download Saturday. I'm crossing my fingers that we will see some useful upgrades to warrior broods in this one.
Just make deathspitters 24" range blast weapons again!!
They likely won't change stats or weapon abilities. It will be special rules and formations, not an amendment/FAQ to the codex.
Gatekeeper wrote: Does anyone fear that our FMC lists with 2 Winged Tyrants and Crones are like our version of the 9 vendetta setup? Or flying circus?
No.
I personally find both units to be vastly underpowered and inhibiting in list building...the Tyranid codex is as balanced as it's fifth edition predecessor...probably the most balanced codex out there...scratch that...guard and Eldar probably win there... But, the more you try to powerbuild with bugs...the worse you're lists will get.
All of my games require a bastion or redoubt though...or...at least for competitive play...a bastion or redoubt.
Personally, I would just like to wishlist and get a venomthrope formation that can't have the cover saves they provide removed by ANY means. Pretty much solve all the issues; as well as allowing me to make a damn foot slogging list that doesn't involve an imperial bastion all the time
I went with the newer meta, but didn't like how it was playing and went back to a more typical list for me. It is much weaker than it used to be, and I have to use the damned flyrants which I never used with the last codex, but it has worked so far.
2X flyrants w/ TLD
2 venom
2X 3 hive guard
13 devilgaunts
30 gaunts with 10 devourers
Tervigon, Electroshock grubs
3 Warriors, either w/ 1 BS,or 3 DS
12 gargoyles w/ AG Exocrine
Trygon Prime
15 extra points, if I do 1850 I drop the warriors and a few gaunts
In general, the venoms try to find a ruin to form a base around, preferably near the center of the table. Flyrants use their bubble for 3+ flyer saves, and usually fly over terrain so if they do lawn dart, they are still in cover. 30X gaunt unit usually reinforces in, so I can hopefully take out the pieplate/flamer threats before it shows. MC's run near venoms as best they can; warriors and terv run a flanking force for objectives if they have cover, otherwise one HT is used. The tryprime comes in where I lose synapse, or where it can pressure the enemy backfield (assuming the HT's aren't doing it already). Essentially, if the HT's hit the backfield, then the tryprime fills in the coverage behind. If they are busy in the center or my backfield, the trygon gets into the enemy backfield. I try to keep enough of the gargoyles alive to tie up a powerful unit for a few rounds with blindness. They get AG to help them make the charge.
I'm not going to spend $500 for new models to make my army competitive again, so I'm using what I already have. Fortunately, my custom t-fexes make excellent exocrine.
I may try using the trygon as a mawloc, though I hate losing the synapse.
Hiveguard are still very useful. No LOS, Str8 , no cover save is still great against most things.
I've not had to fight taudar yet, I suspect they will crush this force unless I get lucky, or a foolishly aggressive opponent.
I'm still insanely disappointed with this codex, and just won't give GW another dime as a result. I've got 6000 points of painted bugs, most of which had their value reduced or negated. I miss my spores so much. I may convert some pterodactyls for harpies, if I get my ass handed to me too often.
Gloomfang wrote: Now excuse me I am sorting through my bits bin trying to figure out how to build a redoubt from spare parts and plasticard. *sigh*
A looted Redoubt would obviously be the easiest option to model, especially an orky one (who made it by looting other races' bits).
But I'd love to see someone build an actual Tyranid counts-as-Redoubt. The bunker part isn't too hard - piles of chitin and/or dead nids who've sacrificed themselves. The major hurdle would be making something that believably looks like nid equivalents of twin-linked lascannon - some sort of immobile carnifexes each carrying four lascannon equivalents? Or even build it as a pair of open mycetic spores with immobile gunbeasts inside?
rigeld2 wrote: Really old screamer-killer with 4 Heavy Venom Cannons for arms? And the legs are just part of the "bunker"
That's my plan if/when I ever build one.
Spare Harpy Bio-cannons would be Ideal for this type of conversion. However without bits sites or a good ability to re-cast them yourself it would be very difficult to muster. But great idea though!
rigeld2 wrote: I'm sure I could work something together from my spare Carnifex HVCs.
Do you simply think a fex is the best size?
I have some old warriors that I was just starting to think would make great turrets...maybe with a head swap/removal.
EDIT: Also, how are people setting theirs up?
Me: Battle Cannon, Magos Spirit, Void Shield.
The Magos is immediately necessary once you take off one of the quadcannons The Battle Bannon is to dissuade pod marines and bikes...and it means that people don't try to "bait" the fire at the closest unit rule as much. The Void Shield is because I was sick of Thunderfire cannons and other long range low strength shots.
For right now my gun emplacments look to be spare ravener bodies with a couple of left over HVCs for the guns. Going to mount some spare warrior heads and work in some leftover carnifex backplate and addition armour pieces from the genestealer sprue.
I wouldn't have to do this if something other that flyrants or crones had skyfire. I like converting, but I hate feeling like I have to go out of my dex to have a competitve list.
Gloomfang wrote: I wouldn't have to do this if something other that flyrants or crones had skyfire. I like converting, but I hate feeling like I have to go out of my dex to have a competitve list.
Swarmy should have been able to grant Skyfire...that would have been interesting...go forth Swarmy and skyfiring rupture cannon tyranno or exocrine.
Gloomfang wrote: I wouldn't have to do this if something other that flyrants or crones had skyfire. I like converting, but I hate feeling like I have to go out of my dex to have a competitve list.
Swarmy should have been able to grant Skyfire...that would have been interesting...go forth Swarmy and skyfiring rupture cannon tyranno or exocrine.
^^ that would have made the Hive guard worth their points increase and stat nerf, had there been a synergistic use like this in the codex.
Alas we got a book written by the same author as before - that is why so little of the game mechanics are different in this book.
Hive Guards should have had a skyfire option as was originally rumoured.
What I envision about the Swarmlord is to give him an ability sort of like Fateweaver. He uses the Hive network to sense trouble coming up, thus giving his army 1 re-roll per player turn. That would make him worth taking.
More playing about with ideas. My original huge list o' nids has modified itself, with two of the scytal fexes (the 3rd ed. ones) becoming further dakkafexes (for a total of 5 dakkafexes).
I also realised a fantastically simple way to make further sets of twin-devourers - use the twin-deathspitter arms, snip off the Deathspitter barrels and replace with devourer weapon heads. Simples!
Now I just get to eagerly await a friends finances to sort themselves out...
And then I get a bumper order of 'nids as my part of the IOU for all the daemons. (Hive Tyrant, Crone, Exocrine).
DarkStarSabre wrote: I also realised a fantastically simple way to make further sets of twin-devourers - use the twin-deathspitter arms, snip off the Deathspitter barrels and replace with devourer weapon heads. Simples!
yep, it's super-easy and doesn't even require any green stuff, looks just fine as the second set of arms with the actual devourers as the first set.
DarkStarSabre wrote: I also realised a fantastically simple way to make further sets of twin-devourers - use the twin-deathspitter arms, snip off the Deathspitter barrels and replace with devourer weapon heads. Simples!
yep, it's super-easy and doesn't even require any green stuff, looks just fine as the second set of arms with the actual devourers as the first set.
I'd love to use 4 Devourer arms, but the kit only comes with 2 and I'd rather convert Deathspitters than spend even more money getting the other 2 for each Carnifex.
I'd love to use 4 Devourer arms, but the kit only comes with 2 and I'd rather convert Deathspitters than spend even more money getting the other 2 for each Carnifex.
Ohhhhhhhh. I acquired like 15 Carnifexes and a literal pile of bits when I got my bugs...didn't realize they only come with two
Abandon wrote: I'll run three with regen, Thorax Swarms and AG glands for testing purposes. Thanks for the input
Don't forget the second template...it's much more necessary than even regen.
Had two battles with them, both vs SM and they were great! This is one of those times I'm happy to be wrong in my initial judgment. This was not a lists I thought would win but it won both games.
Ran my Zoanthropes as support trailing behind for synapse and possible buffs, outflanked both Termigant broods and played aggressively with my Flyrants from turn one.
Things I learned
Tyrannofexs
-Make excellent meat-shields
-Benefit greatly from Fleet (Adrenal Glands)
-Regeneration can demoralize your opponent
-Take out vehicles just fine in assault but take forever to kill a Tac Squad and can be tarpitted with only WS3 and 3 attacks
-Add FNP and opponents start conceding
Zoanthropes
-Are best used for support, do not put them on the front line just to take shots on a LR. Dominion, Catalyst and Onslaught are their best use early in the game. Take no other powers.
-As long as they can't get in range to shoot on their next turn and your units do not really require their synapse, your opponent will generally choose to focus down a more immediate threat. (non threatening Zoey in back or Murderous MC right in front of you, hmmm...)
Devilgants
-Though 25% more in price, I've found adding toxin Sacs is generally worth it. They become a double threat and getting them into melee makes synapse less of and issue.
-If they GTG that's still a lot of snapshots. Never underestimate 50+ shots even at BS1.
-Should GTG when possible and outside of or likely to be outside of synapse on your next turn.
-Though it might seem very bad to have these outside of synapse (and it is bad) there is only roughly a 1 out of 3 chance they fall back due to IB.
-Keep them in area terrain as much as possible.
General Tactics
-Run synapse a little behind, trailing your main forces and staying out of range where possible.
-Don't overly rely on synapse. Your main threats should not require it.
-More rolls on the psychic chart mean more Catalyst or Onslaught or both. 3 broods of one or more Zoanthropes each is a solid choice to go along with 2 HTs.
Had yesterday another game with my 2k tyranids list. It has evolve a little since last time I plaayed towards more presure in the first turns and it goes as you see:
2 Flyrant, 60 Termagants, 2 Tervigons, 3 Hive Crones, 3 Venonthorpes in 3 diferent unnits, 3 Biovores in 3 diferent unnits and 2 Vengance Weapon Bateries with the largs F8/Ap3 blast.
En up desolating a tailored list of Mech Dark Angels with lots of asscannons LR and razorbacks and flyers.
Just for your info, using 2 Tervigons is good, let you play VERY agresibly with your gaunts and themselves, using miasma cannon and thorax electroshock G on them improves their utility.
60 Gaunts+ lots more generated mean you dont have to worry about your troops anymore and can use them agresibly running first turn and shooting/chargings 2nd.
3 Venonthorpes gives you a lot of places to get 3+ or even 2+ for your gaunts and flyers all over the game. No1 is gonna shoot them with so many threats on them.
Vengance weapon Batteries gives you a nice ap3 large blast anti meqs as well as a cool place to hide in first turn.
The preasure this nice 2 blocks + the biovores do on turtle armyes like Tau is nice av14 fortifications rules.
During the whole match I was able to get 3+ or even 2+ cover saves for my whole army, venonthorpes included. That made the diference. turn 3 None of my units had been killed.
Abandon wrote: Devilgants
-Though 25% more in price, I've found adding toxin Sacs is generally worth it. They become a double threat and getting them into melee makes synapse less of and issue.
Would you agree they are much more effective v Space Marines and not so much v Elder/Tau? I am not 100% sure but the math's seem to tell me that using them in games v Marine's or other T4 models is a no brainer, but againt's T3 it is allot less effective?
I've started to get my Nids working in earnest and a few thoughts:
mixed gants squads are great but take some organisation to keep the devourers off the front but close enough that they can get into 18" range
tervigons never go beyond a second spawning and those gants need synapse babysitting - you need objectives close together
dakka carnifexes die without a venomthrope - missiles, plasma, lascannons just roast them often before they get into 18" range
drop-pod lists cause carnage as they can attack your synapse so easily
deathleaper does die still if in sight - snapshooting lascannons!
FMCs are powerful, but playing 3 or 4 of them is just not a game I want to play
I am scheming to build a Nid style bastion or skyshield now, as they do seem to be a necessary crutch but for aesthetic reasons I won't use an imperial version except as neutral scenery.
Abandon wrote: Devilgants
-Though 25% more in price, I've found adding toxin Sacs is generally worth it. They become a double threat and getting them into melee makes synapse less of and issue.
Would you agree they are much more effective v Space Marines and not so much v Elder/Tau? I am not 100% sure but the math's seem to tell me that using them in games v Marine's or other T4 models is a no brainer, but againt's T3 it is allot less effective?
VS tau/eldar/GEQ, you get to re-roll wounds with poison on the gants. I'd say that makes it more useful in those sorts of matchups, rather than less. I haven't done any mathhammer to prove that though.
Abandon wrote: Devilgants -Though 25% more in price, I've found adding toxin Sacs is generally worth it. They become a double threat and getting them into melee makes synapse less of and issue.
Would you agree they are much more effective v Space Marines and not so much v Elder/Tau? I am not 100% sure but the math's seem to tell me that using them in games v Marine's or other T4 models is a no brainer, but againt's T3 it is allot less effective?
VS tau/eldar/GEQ, you get to re-roll wounds with poison on the gants. I'd say that makes it more useful in those sorts of matchups, rather than less. I haven't done any mathhammer to prove that though.
It would be worth it against 10 man Dire Avenger squads, Wraith, Guardian Defender Blobs, or Storm Guardians...but overkill against Fire Warriors, Kroot, 5DA, Rangers or 10 Guardian Defenders.
PrinceRaven wrote: I've never got significant numbers of termagants into combat for me to consider taking even less bodies for increased close combat ability.
DarkStarSabre wrote: I also realised a fantastically simple way to make further sets of twin-devourers - use the twin-deathspitter arms, snip off the Deathspitter barrels and replace with devourer weapon heads. Simples!
yep, it's super-easy and doesn't even require any green stuff, looks just fine as the second set of arms with the actual devourers as the first set.
Am I the only one who just uses four arms?
I have 3 with 4 arms, 2 with 4 conversion arms. I had more twin devourers but when people offered me silly money for them I could not say no.
Even my one flyrant with twin devourers has four - in his case the barrel-head was converted into the wings (FW Flyrant).
Question: Have you been having success with using a horde? A lot of the lists on Dakka seem to focus on the TMCs and not the gants. I was hoping that was because of tournament time limits, not effectiveness.
Question: Have you been having success with using a horde? A lot of the lists on Dakka seem to focus on the TMCs and not the gants. I was hoping that was because of tournament time limits, not effectiveness.
I win more than I lose?
Tyranids pretty much can't powerbuild...the more you try the worst your list gets.
(The only "powerbuild" I've had success with is 18 Raveners and 9 Shrikes...the game was over Turn 2)
But in general, a horde does what it always does...takes damage and just keep on truckin'...Just be sure you attack you're enemy's MC killers with them...too many people fight fire with fire or fire with with water when they should be fighting it with dirt.
EDIT: A sidenote to those who have not tried him yet: The Swarmlord is godlike for a Swarm...sheer power for your entire army...preferred enemy or monster hunter on any nearby unit is ridiculous...You just can't spearhead with him like we used to. He needs to lead from the center.
But giving out a buff and 3 psychic powers a turn is nothing less than magnanimous...I'm never playing without him again if I can help it.
Question: Have you been having success with using a horde? A lot of the lists on Dakka seem to focus on the TMCs and not the gants. I was hoping that was because of tournament time limits, not effectiveness.
It depends on your meta. Hordes do very well against players who don't know 'nids very well. But experienced players will just kill the Synapse, and if they succeed at that, the horde loses. Also Hordes have no answer to Mech. TMC's are far less vulnerable to this. Most of them suffer mainly by doing the thing they would have done anyways at the nearest target (instead of the target of choice). I regularly run 80 or so Gaunts, but run into a good number of lists that deconstruct them very quickly (Deep striking flamers = my bane). So, as the models become available, I'm switching to TMC's.
I'm still wrapping my head around on how to beat Eldau and Taudar. I've had a few games and results have varied drastically. I will be playing on Sunday ...
So how would you deploy? I had reaper cc tyrant, desthleaper, 2 squads lictors, 3 stealer squads (two with broodlord), ten gants in a comms bastion, 2 crones and two mawlocs.
My opponent had buffmander, 3 broadsides (SMS HYM 2 drones, interceptor), riptide, WK, DA in serpents, seer, warp spiders, small outflanking kroot squad, aegis.
The problem here is that the broadside unit can rip my leaper to shreds if he is within 30" easily. If I DS or outflank he has interceptor. Sure horror can help if I can survive within distance but I sure cannot set up the Mawlocs safely for no scatter. I need to hide the flyrant and crones first turn also.
All the local Tyranid players here have kept running hordes and have been losing disastrously, blaming the codex and bringing other armies to the bunker. There's a teenager who last weekend 'quit' his Nids, saying he's
not won a game since the new codex. But I just see him running massive gant and gaunts blobs up the board.
I've been cleaning up on the other hand. The battlereports Ive filmed have been the losses I've had, and the victories have far outnumbered them. I'm running a hordeless Nid army because for me, right now its more fun.
I'm really curious how my Warrior list is going to do. I'm on leave right now and I've just finished painting 6 warriors and a Harpy, so I can field the list I want for the first time. I'll report back whether its a success or massive failure.
I'm still wrapping my head around on how to beat Eldau and Taudar. I've had a few games and results have varied drastically. I will be playing on Sunday ...
So how would you deploy? I had reaper cc tyrant, desthleaper, 2 squads lictors, 3 stealer squads (two with broodlord), ten gants in a comms bastion, 2 crones and two mawlocs.
My opponent had buffmander, 3 broadsides (SMS HYM 2 drones, interceptor), riptide, WK, DA in serpents, seer, warp spiders, small outflanking kroot squad, aegis.
The problem here is that the broadside unit can rip my leaper to shreds if he is within 30" easily. If I DS or outflank he has interceptor. Sure horror can help if I can survive within distance but I sure cannot set up the Mawlocs safely for no scatter. I need to hide the flyrant and crones first turn also.
So how would you deploy and advance?
How you deploy will depend on terrain. Ideally, you have some LOS blocking ruins that you can infiltrate your deathleaper, lictors, and stealers into (broodlord out front to tank wounds). I would reserve your Mawlocs and Crones.
Place your Bastion just out of your deployment zone, blocking LOS to your Tyrant who is just inside your deployment zone. Your Gaunts can be in your tyrants synapse turn 1, and then go into the bastion turn 2. Turn 1 you do nothing but hide and move your Gaunts into the bastion (and fire bastion's bolters).
Turn 2 you start by deepstriking your Mawlocs (Mishap is not a problem). Broadsides are the best target, but remember you can only deep strike to a lower level. Target 2 might be the Buffmander. Bring in your crones. Move ALL of your infiltrating units right out into the open, and charge anywhere you can. Use Horror. Move your Tyrant out into the open. If he chooses to intercept your Mawlocs or Crones it isn't really a problem. I would use the crone's missiles to try to kill the Wave Serpent. In his next turn he is going to kill a lot, but you have a lot of units for him to kill, so some will survive. Turn 3 is yours. If your remaining units are strong enough, Don't be afraid to move your Crones into CC, or Vector strike them off the board. Let us know how it goes.
Iechine wrote: All the local Tyranid players here have kept running hordes and have been losing disastrously, blaming the codex and bringing other armies to the bunker. There's a teenager who last weekend 'quit' his Nids, saying he's
not won a game since the new codex. But I just see him running massive gant and gaunts blobs up the board.
I've been cleaning up on the other hand. The battlereports Ive filmed have been the losses I've had, and the victories have far outnumbered them. I'm running a hordeless Nid army because for me, right now its more fun.
I'm really curious how my Warrior list is going to do. I'm on leave right now and I've just finished painting 6 warriors and a Harpy, so I can field the list I want for the first time. I'll report back whether its a success or massive failure.
Let me know how it goes. Our playstyle seems similar and I'm looking into running warriors as well - probably backed up by slower MCs though.
Looking forward to hearing what you make of Warriors. Cheers.
Just thinking about the Tervigon and its viability in my build. Is there anyone here with the probability-fu to get an idea of the average gaunts one produces before crapping out? I suppose I'm asking how many free points of Gaunts will be produced, which gives an idea how much the Tervigon actually costs minus the free bodies. Might be useful information to look at the Tervigon in a different light- just how many points would you pay for one if it's just a big body with Synapse and a psychic power? Is the cost increase putting it in the overcosted zone, really? Curious to seeif anyone has the math brain to figure it out.
aushlo wrote: Just thinking about the Tervigon and its viability in my build. Is there anyone here with the probability-fu to get an idea of the average gaunts one produces before crapping out? I suppose I'm asking how many free points of Gaunts will be produced, which gives an idea how much the Tervigon actually costs minus the free bodies. Might be useful information to look at the Tervigon in a different light- just how many points would you pay for one if it's just a big body with Synapse and a psychic power? Is the cost increase putting it in the overcosted zone, really? Curious to seeif anyone has the math brain to figure it out.
aushlo wrote: Just thinking about the Tervigon and its viability in my build. Is there anyone here with the probability-fu to get an idea of the average gaunts one produces before crapping out? I suppose I'm asking how many free points of Gaunts will be produced, which gives an idea how much the Tervigon actually costs minus the free bodies. Might be useful information to look at the Tervigon in a different light- just how many points would you pay for one if it's just a big body with Synapse and a psychic power? Is the cost increase putting it in the overcosted zone, really? Curious to seeif anyone has the math brain to figure it out.
EDIT: I was wrong...my equation keeps getting more complex...but the standard deviation changes wildly as you add more tervigons...from an average 15.75 each with two to an average 19.6 each with 8 tervigons.
Not trusting my own math, I'd say the 24 each makes perfect sense as I keep getting closer to it...but I think that it's wildly off when talking about a solo tervigon.
aushlo wrote: Just thinking about the Tervigon and its viability in my build. Is there anyone here with the probability-fu to get an idea of the average gaunts one produces before crapping out? I suppose I'm asking how many free points of Gaunts will be produced, which gives an idea how much the Tervigon actually costs minus the free bodies. Might be useful information to look at the Tervigon in a different light- just how many points would you pay for one if it's just a big body with Synapse and a psychic power? Is the cost increase putting it in the overcosted zone, really? Curious to seeif anyone has the math brain to figure it out.
EDIT: I was wrong...my equation keeps getting more complex...but the standard deviation changes wildly as you add more tervigons...from an average 15.75 each with two to an average 19.6 each with 8 tervigons.
Not trusting my own math, I'd say the 24 each makes perfect sense as I keep getting closer to it...but I think that it's wildly off when talking about a solo tervigon.
Yeah, ive done no maths, I just remember seeing it from some old Math hammer, but that was back when Tervigons where spammed. Although I'm not sure why having multiple Tervigons would affect the average number of Gants spawned by a single Tervigon?
aushlo wrote: Just thinking about the Tervigon and its viability in my build. Is there anyone here with the probability-fu to get an idea of the average gaunts one produces before crapping out? I suppose I'm asking how many free points of Gaunts will be produced, which gives an idea how much the Tervigon actually costs minus the free bodies. Might be useful information to look at the Tervigon in a different light- just how many points would you pay for one if it's just a big body with Synapse and a psychic power? Is the cost increase putting it in the overcosted zone, really? Curious to seeif anyone has the math brain to figure it out.
The calculaiton has been done on the tyrnaid hive a few times and I'm pretty sure it comes in as 23.
An average roll will be 10.5; the odds of not rolling a double are 5/6 squared IIRC... and I know I attempted the calculation, with a weighted average and got it wrong but I think whoever calculated 23, from my stats and probability knowledge, got it right. So it looks like, on average, you get 92 free points from your tervigon.
Finally, I'm always ready to be proven wrong, but the number of tervigons shouldn't affect the average number spawned per tervigon, altho of course they do smooth out the odds and make it more likely your spawning will be close to average.
aushlo wrote: Just thinking about the Tervigon and its viability in my build. Is there anyone here with the probability-fu to get an idea of the average gaunts one produces before crapping out? I suppose I'm asking how many free points of Gaunts will be produced, which gives an idea how much the Tervigon actually costs minus the free bodies. Might be useful information to look at the Tervigon in a different light- just how many points would you pay for one if it's just a big body with Synapse and a psychic power? Is the cost increase putting it in the overcosted zone, really? Curious to seeif anyone has the math brain to figure it out.
EDIT: I was wrong...my equation keeps getting more complex...but the standard deviation changes wildly as you add more tervigons...from an average 15.75 each with two to an average 19.6 each with 8 tervigons.
Not trusting my own math, I'd say the 24 each makes perfect sense as I keep getting closer to it...but I think that it's wildly off when talking about a solo tervigon.
Yeah, ive done no maths, I just remember seeing it from some old Math hammer, but that was back when Tervigons where spammed. Although I'm not sure why having multiple Tervigons would affect the average number of Gants spawned by a single Tervigon?
Because there's a 50% chance you stop each turn.
I dumb down the 49/51% possibility to 50% a tervigon stops spawning every turn.
aushlo wrote: Just thinking about the Tervigon and its viability in my build. Is there anyone here with the probability-fu to get an idea of the average gaunts one produces before crapping out? I suppose I'm asking how many free points of Gaunts will be produced, which gives an idea how much the Tervigon actually costs minus the free bodies. Might be useful information to look at the Tervigon in a different light- just how many points would you pay for one if it's just a big body with Synapse and a psychic power? Is the cost increase putting it in the overcosted zone, really? Curious to seeif anyone has the math brain to figure it out.
EDIT: I was wrong...my equation keeps getting more complex...but the standard deviation changes wildly as you add more tervigons...from an average 15.75 each with two to an average 19.6 each with 8 tervigons.
Not trusting my own math, I'd say the 24 each makes perfect sense as I keep getting closer to it...but I think that it's wildly off when talking about a solo tervigon.
Yeah, ive done no maths, I just remember seeing it from some old Math hammer, but that was back when Tervigons where spammed. Although I'm not sure why having multiple Tervigons would affect the average number of Gants spawned by a single Tervigon?
Because there's a 50% chance you stop each turn.
I dumb down the 49/51% possibility to 50% a tervigon stops spawning every turn.
8 Tervigons
Turn 1: 8 Tervigons spawn 10.5 termagants each
Turn 2: 4Tervigons spawn 10.5 termagants each
Turn 3: 2Tervigons spawn 10.5 termagants each
Turn 4: 1 Tervigon spawn 10.5 termagants each
Turn 5: 0 Tervigons spawn
157.5 termagants/8 tervigons = 19.68 gants
The stop rate has to be included into the average production.
I could be way wrong...making it up as I go...
I mean I'm hopeless at maths and I don't even try to attempt even the most basic calculations without a calculator. Sk you could well be right and it's just beyond my understanding.
Surely a Tervigon has better odds than that to spawn for 2 Turns, in that first example you're giving them a 50% chance to roll doubles.
@ductvader, dont' want to divert this thread any more, I certainly understand your posts less than I do the maths!
But I do believe that there's only a 44% chance you stop each turn.
Your roll your first die.
Second die: chance of a double is 1/6
THird die: chance of a double is 2/6... (because there are two numbers there already)
CHance of no doubles = 5/6 x 2/3 = 55%, which gives a very different result from 50%.
Question: Have you been having success with using a horde? A lot of the lists on Dakka seem to focus on the TMCs and not the gants. I was hoping that was because of tournament time limits, not effectiveness.
I win more than I lose?
Tyranids pretty much can't powerbuild...the more you try the worst your list gets.
(The only "powerbuild" I've had success with is 18 Raveners and 9 Shrikes...the game was over Turn 2)
But in general, a horde does what it always does...takes damage and just keep on truckin'...Just be sure you attack you're enemy's MC killers with them...too many people fight fire with fire or fire with with water when they should be fighting it with dirt.
EDIT: A sidenote to those who have not tried him yet: The Swarmlord is godlike for a Swarm...sheer power for your entire army...preferred enemy or monster hunter on any nearby unit is ridiculous...You just can't spearhead with him like we used to. He needs to lead from the center.
But giving out a buff and 3 psychic powers a turn is nothing less than magnanimous...I'm never playing without him again if I can help it.
What exactly are you doing with this swarmlord list and what does it look like? It's encouraging to hear someone having success with a horde force when so many others are failing with them
HEAVY -2 Carnifex (TL Devourers, Stranglethorn Cannon)
-Exocrine
1850/1850
Yeah, so my only AA is a preferred enemy Exocrine, but I've been finding that most of my opponents put AA in their list...not flyers. So taking Flyers myself didn't make sense.
Hormagaunts are ridiculous when you pay their cheap cheap points and apply preferred enemy, furious charge, or monster hunter to them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: ...and knowing when to take dominion has become a science in itself for me...are there gaps in the terrain where I'll need synapse more than catalyst or so on?...okay...dominion-ing up.
Dakkaflyrant
BS/LW Flyrant with Hive Commander
Tervigon with Miasma
Gants
6 Warriors w/Deathspitter/Barbed Strangler
Dakkafex x2
Dakkafex x2
Tyrannofex
With some Regen and Thorax weapons sprinkled in - I'm thinking of taking this to a tournament tomorrow. I don't think I'll have my Exocrine ready but if everyone thinks it'd be that much better than the Tyranno I'll try and power through it to get it on the table (don't have to finish it, just prime/base coat/finish assembly)
What this tells me is that I can expect between 11 and 31 gants in most games. Also, bringing 31 extra will suffice for 75% of games (even more if I'm not spawning every turn). The average is quite different than 50th percentile as when you get higher number, they tend to be really high (which also explains the high Stdev).
Here is another plot, using a theoretical Beta General distribution generated from a program known as @Risk.
(The actual maximum number that can be produced is 108, [15+15+15+15+15+15+18] but I limited it to 103, either way, it won't change much)
wolvesoffenris wrote: I did an excel calculation and I get 22.79662 Gaunts produced, which means that a Tervigon's true cost is 103.8135 points.
You have to factor in the % chance that they do not double out as well as the % chance that the game goes to turns 6 and 7. Breakdown rounded to 2 decimal places Round 1: 10.5 Gaunts Round 2: .55 * 10.5 = 5.83 Gaunts Round 3: .55 * .55 * 10.5 = 3.24 Gaunts Round 4: .55 * .55 * .55 * 10.5 = 1.8 Gaunts Round 5: .55 * .55 * .55 * .55 * 10.5 = 1 Gaunt Round 6: 2/3 * .55 * .55 * .55 * .55 * .55 * 10.5 = 0.37 Gaunts Round 7: .5 * 2/3 * .55 * .55 * .55 * .55 * .55 * .55 * 10.5 = 0.05 Gaunts
That is how I calculate it. The mean is 22.80. However, the median is closer to 14. 44% of Tervs stop after 1 spawn (3 min, 8 median, 10.5 average, 18 max). 44% * 56% = 24.64% stop after 2 spawns (9 Min 21 average, 33 max), So the median is between 10.5 and 21, and I ballpark it at 14. Maybe someone can remind me of how to calculate a median without enumerating all of the possible values.
EDIT: A sidenote to those who have not tried him yet: The Swarmlord is godlike for a Swarm...sheer power for your entire army...preferred enemy or monster hunter on any nearby unit is ridiculous...You just can't spearhead with him like we used to. He needs to lead from the center.
But giving out a buff and 3 psychic powers a turn is nothing less than magnanimous...I'm never playing without him again if I can help it.
What exactly are you doing with this swarmlord list and what does it look like? It's encouraging to hear someone having success with a horde force when so many others are failing with them
I have been having success with Swarmlord in a pseudo-horde as well. I really have wanted to make the swarm work, as I have a lot of fun fielding all my Gants/Gaunts and have actually have quite a bit of success with my list so far. I am happy to see that others have had success with Swarmlord in a swarm build, as I agree he brings a lot to the table in such a list. The extra powers and huge Synapse range in the center of your horde is a nice anchor to push your models forward. My games so far have been close wins, with two draws (due to really stupid mistakes), so i've been really happy with the success of my list so far (especially because it's been really fun to play). Honestly, though, I will be blown off the table by Tau power builds, but against other 6E books I have had lots of success.
I have a lot of points in upgrades to play around with. It's possible to drop Thorax Swarms/Regen to fit in a second Zoanthrope/Venomthrope, or Hive Commander if I want to. Anyway, the fast Gaunts/Gargs are really nice to tie stuff down for Swarmlord and the T-fex. If I were to bump this up in points, I would probably try to fit in a second Mawloc to really try and get some mileage out of Swarmlord's +1 to reserve rolls.
Iechine wrote: All the local Tyranid players here have kept running hordes and have been losing disastrously, blaming the codex and bringing other armies to the bunker. There's a teenager who last weekend 'quit' his Nids, saying he's
not won a game since the new codex. But I just see him running massive gant and gaunts blobs up the board.
I've been cleaning up on the other hand. The battlereports Ive filmed have been the losses I've had, and the victories have far outnumbered them. I'm running a hordeless Nid army because for me, right now its more fun.
I'm really curious how my Warrior list is going to do. I'm on leave right now and I've just finished painting 6 warriors and a Harpy, so I can field the list I want for the first time. I'll report back whether its a success or massive failure.
Going to Tournament in early March, I think my turn 2 will surprise people!
So, I don't know what your local meta is like, but can I just say that I have been immensely unimpressed with Devilgaunts. Their cost is just not worth it. They seem bloated-expensive already, plus to give them any functionality there is the Hive Commander-tax. And for what? Yes, they have a silly amount of low-powered dakka, but those shots can't do much of anything to vehicles, and while they'll chip away at most other things, so would whatever MC, FMC, etc, you could buy for their points instead.
Unless your local meta is very infantry heavy, i'd leave the Devilgaunts at home. In fact, i'm so unimpressed with Gants in bulk in general, and the synapse they utterly require to reliably hold objectives, that despite painting 80 of the damn things in the last month, I have doubled-down on my use of Genestealers as my troops.
Synapse-less, better deployment options (can show up later, etc...), and do just fine hunkered down in the back-field on their own. Those extra points and points freed from people handcuffing themselves to a Tervigon buys a nice chunk of heavy hitters for offense.
Going to Tournament in early March, I think my turn 2 will surprise people!
So, I don't know what your local meta is like, but can I just say that I have been immensely unimpressed with Devilgaunts. Their cost is just not worth it. They seem bloated-expensive already, plus to give them any functionality there is the Hive Commander-tax. And for what? Yes, they have a silly amount of low-powered dakka, but those shots can't do much of anything to vehicles, and while they'll chip away at most other things, so would whatever MC, FMC, etc, you could buy for their points instead.
Unless your local meta is very infantry heavy, i'd leave the Devilgaunts at home. In fact, i'm so unimpressed with Gants in bulk in general, and the synapse they utterly require to reliably hold objectives, that despite painting 80 of the damn things in the last month, I have doubled-down on my use of Genestealers as my troops.
Synapse-less, better deployment options (can show up later, etc...), and do just fine hunkered down in the back-field on their own. Those extra points and points freed from people handcuffing themselves to a Tervigon buys a nice chunk of heavy hitters for offense.
Devils are very nice against the 2 extreme units: TEQ elites and GEQ blobs. For the first the sheer number of saves starts kill things, and for the second you are putting out enough wounds break them. It is also good against rear arm of most transports and a few tanks. They tend to lose effectiveness against middle of the road units.
Going to Tournament in early March, I think my turn 2 will surprise people!
So, I don't know what your local meta is like, but can I just say that I have been immensely unimpressed with Devilgaunts. Their cost is just not worth it. They seem bloated-expensive already, plus to give them any functionality there is the Hive Commander-tax. And for what? Yes, they have a silly amount of low-powered dakka, but those shots can't do much of anything to vehicles, and while they'll chip away at most other things, so would whatever MC, FMC, etc, you could buy for their points instead.
Unless your local meta is very infantry heavy, i'd leave the Devilgaunts at home. In fact, i'm so unimpressed with Gants in bulk in general, and the synapse they utterly require to reliably hold objectives, that despite painting 80 of the damn things in the last month, I have doubled-down on my use of Genestealers as my troops.
Synapse-less, better deployment options (can show up later, etc...), and do just fine hunkered down in the back-field on their own. Those extra points and points freed from people handcuffing themselves to a Tervigon buys a nice chunk of heavy hitters for offense.
Devils are very nice against the 2 extreme units: TEQ elites and GEQ blobs. For the first the sheer number of saves starts kill things, and for the second you are putting out enough wounds break them. It is also good against rear arm of most transports and a few tanks. They tend to lose effectiveness against middle of the road units.
So if I'm mostly facing Marines that only use Terminators about 50% of the time, I may want to skip devilgaunts?
Abandon wrote: Devilgants
-Though 25% more in price, I've found adding toxin Sacs is generally worth it. They become a double threat and getting them into melee makes synapse less of and issue.
Would you agree they are much more effective v Space Marines and not so much v Elder/Tau? I am not 100% sure but the math's seem to tell me that using them in games v Marine's or other T4 models is a no brainer, but againt's T3 it is allot less effective?
VS tau/eldar/GEQ, you get to re-roll wounds with poison on the gants. I'd say that makes it more useful in those sorts of matchups, rather than less. I haven't done any mathhammer to prove that though.
It would be worth it against 10 man Dire Avenger squads, Wraith, Guardian Defender Blobs, or Storm Guardians...but overkill against Fire Warriors, Kroot, 5DA, Rangers or 10 Guardian Defenders.
I never even got them into CC but the threat was enough to manipulate my opponents movement which is just as good.
My theory used to be to simply throw enough bodies at them but that doesn't work by itself any more. Now I'm all about options. Strategic options, tactical flexibility, board control, etc. Options give you flexibility. Options allow you to take greater advantage of opportunities. Options give you greater board control and allow you to exorcise that control more optimally.
IMO, Options > Numbers.
This is not to say that weight of numbers does not play it's part but rather that flexibility should not be sacrificed to gain those numbers.
Example:
Your opponent wants to assault your Tyrannofex with his Wraithknight. The Tyrannofex is a major threat to his infantry and he needs to stop it this turn and there's a unit of 20 Devilgants near the T-fex.... (assume everything else is otherwise occupied)
-Regardless of their ranged weapon there is no way the Devilgants pose a threat to the Wraith knight and the worst they can do is hold it up for a few turns. He assaults and now your T-fex is going to die. The only option you have is to sacrifice your Devilgants as well and delay the Wraithknight for several turns. Not a good trade.
-Instead of 20 Devilgants there are 15 Toxic Devilgants. This is an entirely different scenario. Even between shooting and assault the opponent cannot guarantee the death of the T-fex and is likely to lose the Wraithknight if he tries. The threat of counter assault with 30 poisoned attacks is to great as at best he's looking at a bad trade points wise and at worst a loss with no real gain. Not wanting to lose his Wraithknight he does something else with it and the T-fex is allowed to proceed with the decimation of his infantry.
Options. Not only do they give you more flexibility but they lessen the opponents as well granting you more control over the battle. The Wraithknight could be replaced with any number of units or the situation could be rearranged any number of ways.
Multi-functional units are where it's at IMO starting with our best Swiss Army Knife, the Dakka Flyrant. Mobility, melee, psychic, survivability and shooty all wrapped up in a neat little package. While you can find units within the codex that are point for point better at any one or two of these things the real strength is in its flexibility. It goes where it needs to be and can do what needs to be done. As simple as that. This is what you want from a unit. Multipurpose units that limit limit your opponents options in multiple ways. The more roles a unit can fill the more adaptive it is to a changing battlefield, the more tactics you have available, etc.
This is not to say 'take all options on everything' either. Point efficiency is also paramount after all so a good balance should be found. As far as the gaunts/gants go, I believe this is the Toxic Devilgant.
This is my latest evolution of thought on the ever evolving swarm.
Thanks for the mathery, y'all. So if we pretend for a minute that a Tervigon is actually a 103 point model without spawning, does it still seem viable? I have trouble not leaning toward dozens of cheap bodies and some warriors myself, for so many points.
aushlo wrote: Thanks for the mathery, y'all. So if we pretend for a minute that a Tervigon is actually a 103 point model without spawning, does it still seem viable? I have trouble not leaning toward dozens of cheap bodies and some warriors myself, for so many points.
103 points for a T6 6W Monsterous Creature, that can score, give synapse, and have a psychic power? Yes please.
Have to keep in mind it's only scoring with the 120 point gaunt tax, though. I honestly don't think I'd take it over twenty plus gaunts/gants, the 3+ save makes T6 less impressive in my experience. I think it makes sense in Nidzilla style lists (which, to be fair, is the current leaning overall), but I think it's oddly out of place in a swarm of wee bugs- to me it has a similar 'kick me' sign pasted to its forehead to Flyrant but with less resilience. I'd like to goof around with one anyway, see what it can do. I'm thinking the Tyrannofex is the better build out of the kit for my needs.
I am convinced that after the abuse the GW unleashed on us with the new codex, they really don't deserve any of our money in form of model buys, just like you wouldn't buy candies from candyman who raped your daughter (even if it's chocolate).
Now I don't say we shoudn't play tyranid, or try to construct as good lists as possible; just not buying new Gw stuff (buying from people, ebay or converting, say, trygon into crone to try it out).
If the GW only understands feedback in form of sales drop, it is what we should do.
Got a bonus battle report exclusively for all you Nid players. Yes, it's a full-blown Jy2 battle report that can only be seen here in this thread.
Got a rematch in against Sean's (aka GTKA666) Eldar. The very first time I played against him, he almost beat my triple-flyrant double-FOC list back when Tyranids were considered much stronger:
Even though Sean doesn't play a typical Eldar power-build, his army does have a scary amount of firepower (at least to us bugs). He's got plenty of shooting and a lot of rending. He's also got the Avatar with 2 melta shots that is a huge threat to my bastion. War walkers are probably his most dangerous shooters. They've got to go pronto. 2nd would be his warp spiders, who will be a huge pain in the rear. With the wave serpents, I don't think any of my flyers are going to survive for very long. Then he's got the harlequins. If you've never played against harlequins before, I'm telling you right now, take them out and do it early. Once they get into assault, they can really mess up your bugs and then they can leave combat almost anytime they want to thanks to Hit-&-Run. Oh, and the Avatar is no slouch in combat either. Overall, my opponent has got a lot of very dangerous and high-priority targets, and that's not even counting his Farseer yet, who is a deadly force-multiplier in his own right.
However, it isn't all doom-&-gloom. I lucked out getting Catalyst on both flyrants. We're playing a mission, the Relic, where Tyranids traditionally tend to do well. I've also got a scoring flyrant thanks to his Warlord trait. Lastly, I'm going 1st and will get a chance to "power-up" as well as the alpha-strike against Sean's army. Also, I've got the experience advantage over my opponent. He hasn't played against the new Tyranids yet whereas I've got plenty of experience playing against Eldar.
This battle could go either ways. I think that if my mawlocs hit true, I may be able to take this battle. However, if even 1 of them does poorly, my opponent has the firepower to blow away my army, and that is me talking from experience.
I actually forget to bring most of my gants with the exception of the 20 gants deployed, with 10 more "invisible" gants just behind them. Also, hiding in the ruins where the Hive Crone is are 10 more "invisible" gants who basically remain there for almost the entire game.
Eldar deployment. I am actually surprised that my opponent deployed everything. Personally, I would deepstrike the warp spiders into my backfield, but I can see why he would want them deployed. He needs all the firepower on Turn 1 that he can get!
I decide to go all out. I don't normally play my flyrants this aggressively but I make an exception in this case. Not only does my non-Warlord flyrant fails to cast Catalyst, but he suffers 1W from Perils as well.
The reason I am risking my flyrants is to act as a smokescreen. Keep his forces busy while playing the game of pass-the-buck (in this case, the Relic) back towards my tervigon hiding behind the bastion. Keep in mind that my Warlord is scoring. Thus, I will be using him as the 1st unit to hand-off the Relic.
Focus-fire from both flyrants take out the Avatar for First Blood.
I also manage 1 glance with the hive crone tentaclids.
Finally, I shoot down 1 harlequin.
Shooting is not that great, but I'll take First Blood. If only I had Onslaught for my dakkafexes.
Eldar 1
Spoiler:
Eldar movement. He disembarks 1 unit of guardians. Boy, I wish I had my biovores here with me.
This turn is going to hurt.
It takes the firepower of his entire army, but he is able to take out both flyrants (though it took the very last shot from his very last unit, the fire prism, to down my last flyrant).
I make a huge blunder here. No, not by playing my flyrants so aggressively. I forget about Night-fight. Half of his units were more than 12" away from my flyrants. That means I could have taken 2+ cover (area terrain + Shroud + Stealth) from their shooting as opposed to 3+ armor. It means that one of my flyrants would have survived. Oh well, I guess I just like to play against one of our toughest matchups with a handicap.
Warp spiders then do their Assault jetpack move towards my deployment zone. My opponent makes a mistake as well. I think he might have forgotten about my mawlocs as he doesn't spread out his units (either that or he didn't care).
Tyranids 2
Spoiler:
1 mawlocs lands dead-on and takes out 7 spiders. Yes!
Actually, they both do. This one takes out 8 harlequins.
Man, this is the best my mawlocs have ever done! Flyrants? Flyrants who?
Tervigon casts Paroxysm on the Farseer's unit. He fails to deny.
Tervigon spawns 12 gants, who go grab the Relic. They continue to pass it back by picking it up, passing it back to a model in base and then dropping it 1" further towards my tervigon.
Sorry, but like I said, I forgot to bring most of my gants and had to proxy (using kroots).
The crone vector-strikes and stuns the wave serpent. He then flames the guardians and kill 6.
Zoan successfully Warp Blasts the spiders off the table and the bastion heavy bolter takes out the lone, surviving harlequin. Hell yeah! 2 large Eldar threats, gone just like that!
Dakkafexes blast his Warlord's unit but they go-to-ground for 2+ cover. I believe I kill 1 or 2 dire avengers only.
Lastly, mawloc runs. So do the guardians. Lol.
Eldar 2
Spoiler:
The Eldar focus on my hive crone but only manage to take 2W off from it.
They do, however, manage to take out 1 mawloc, mainly with rending shots.
They also take out 3 gants. I'm not going to lose any sleep over that. Lol.
Tyranids 3
Spoiler:
My crone vector-strikes the walkers. I only manage to shake 1 of them. The crone then flies off the table.
I also burrow with my mawloc.
The Relic finally makes it back to the tervigon, though he doesn't currently hold it yet. It's just on the ground underneath him at this point.
Venomthrope disembarks from the bastion and the zoanthrope embarks into it.
Do you hear that? That's the sound of doom heading towards the Eldar lines.
Bastion takes out 1 guardian (they regrouped last turn). Dakkafexes take out 3 dire avengers, who go-to-ground once again.
My fexes then make the multi-assault through difficult terrain (rolled a 4,5,6).
Unfortunately, they whiff in combat and only kill 1 from each unit.
But that is enough to send the guardians packing, where they will not regroup for the rest of the game (they need insane courage 1,1 to regroup).
Eldar 3
Spoiler:
At this point, my opponent is desperate. I've got the Relic secured in my deployment zone and 2 dakkafexes rampaging in his backfield. He decides to send his guardians into assault after his Warlord casts Doom on my fexes.
His last hurrah bears some fruit as he is able to shoot down my tervigon due to some poor saves on my part (I fail 5 out of 6 saves just against 1 wave serpent!!!). The explosion wipes out the smaller gant unit and takes out 6 from my big 30-gant unit. He also takes out my venomthrope because I forget to run him into safety last turn.
Finally, he charges in with this guardians.
They don't do jack. I wipe out his Warlord's unit and then sweep the guardians.
That was the straw that broke the camel's back.
Tyranids 4
Spoiler:
Hive crone comes in. He fires the rest of his tentaclids at the serpent with just 1 HP remaining and takes it out.
Mawloc comes in as well but scatters.
My 10-gant brood finally comes out. The 30-gant brood goes to grab the Relic. He's going to have to kill 20+ gants before he can knock the last one off of the Relic.
Carnifexes go to finish off his army.
But I never get the chance to because at this point, my opponent concedes.
Ratliker wrote: I am convinced that after the abuse the GW unleashed on us with the new codex, they really don't deserve any of our money in form of model buys, just like you wouldn't buy candies from candyman who raped your daughter (even if it's chocolate).
Now I don't say we shoudn't play tyranid, or try to construct as good lists as possible; just not buying new Gw stuff (buying from people, ebay or converting, say, trygon into crone to try it out).
If the GW only understands feedback in form of sales drop, it is what we should do.
This is a thread about the Stremgths of the new Nids, you should bash else where.
Also there is never a good time to make a rape analogy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Can't wait Jy!
Also that is a beautiful looking Crone!
We know it is about the strength of the new Nids. But honestly how do you win consistently with Nids. Looking at the list played at the LVO by some top players, mind you, aside from trying to kill the other guy's scoring units, contest with mawlocks and trying to troubleshoot with flyrants crones while holding on for dear life to your own objectives there is no plan. tIt is a lot of if's that have to come together to work if we are looking to beat the top four armies ( Eldar/Tau/Daemons/IG). I see many suggetions on this thread but I find it hard to be optimistic.
felixcat wrote: We know it is about the strength of the new Nids. But honestly how do you win consistently with Nids. Looking at the list played at the LVO by some top players, mind you, aside from trying to kill the other guy's scoring units, contest with mawlocks and trying to troubleshoot with flyrants crones while holding on for dear life to your own objectives there is no plan. tIt is a lot of if's that have to come together to work if we are looking to beat the top four armies ( Eldar/Tau/Daemons/IG). I see many suggetions on this thread but I find it hard to be optimistic.
We win like we always did before- overload the enemy with scoring units while we focus on killing theirs.
Adding things like a firestorm redoubt or a couple vengeance weapon batteries help add some good damage output.
I have always wanted to play the bugs but never did. Now I've decided to give them a try. I just don't like painting, so I'm looking for advice how to do this in an easy way, ie. with as few models as possible?
We usually play at 1500 points, this is what I have in mind:
HQ 2 Flyrants with 2 TL Devourers 460
Elite
Venomthrope 45
2 Zoanthropes 100
Heavy support
2 Carnifex with 2 TL Devourers 300
Tyrannofex with adrenal and another template weapon 200
Leaves me with around 400 pts.
How to fill up the troops? Originally I thought of having a Tervigon and 30 Termagants, but painting 40 little bugs sounds quite annoying and time consuming (with my skill).
Could I just run some genestealers instead? Or maybe have Flyrant be a hive commander and 2 groups of 3 Tyranid warriors?
How about:
FA Hive Crone 155
Troops
4 Tyranid warriors with 3 Deathspitter and Barbed strangler 145
3 Tyranid warriors 90
We win like we always did before- overload the enemy with scoring units while we focus on killing theirs.
That was the approach we used yes. But Tervigon and gants are not quite the same anymore are they? Amd IB has changed as well. So we do need to adjust our thinking. I'm not saying nids cannot win - I'm saying that have become a lot harder to play and much less forgiving.
aushlo wrote: Thanks for the mathery, y'all. So if we pretend for a minute that a Tervigon is actually a 103 point model without spawning, does it still seem viable? I have trouble not leaning toward dozens of cheap bodies and some warriors myself, for so many points.
103 points for a T6 6W Monsterous Creature, that can score, give synapse, and have a psychic power? Yes please.
Yes, but by the logic that was "reduce" the Terv's cost by the average number of Gants it will create, we also have to add the number of Gants it'll tend to nuke when/if it dies. That is a terrible way to calculate its value, IMO.
aushlo wrote: Thanks for the mathery, y'all. So if we pretend for a minute that a Tervigon is actually a 103 point model without spawning, does it still seem viable? I have trouble not leaning toward dozens of cheap bodies and some warriors myself, for so many points.
103 points for a T6 6W Monsterous Creature, that can score, give synapse, and have a psychic power? Yes please.
Yes, but by the logic that was "reduce" the Terv's cost by the average number of Gants it will create, we also have to add the number of Gants it'll tend to nuke when/if it dies. That is a terrible way to calculate its value, IMO.
In average 4-5 per unit in 12". If you get youre gants out of the "danger Zone" as fast as possible a single tervigon is still a nice Option.
Yes, but by the logic that was "reduce" the Terv's cost by the average number of Gants it will create, we also have to add the number of Gants it'll tend to nuke when/if it dies. That is a terrible way to calculate its value, IMO.
Well... everything that gets blown up is poor value if you calculate it that way!
tetrisphreak wrote: Omg I love the paint on that crone. I'm eager to see the report as well!
Thanks!
My final list will probably include 2 of those. My army is still currently not completed, which is why I did not take them to the LVO.
felixcat wrote: We know it is about the strength of the new Nids. But honestly how do you win consistently with Nids. Looking at the list played at the LVO by some top players, mind you, aside from trying to kill the other guy's scoring units, contest with mawlocks and trying to troubleshoot with flyrants crones while holding on for dear life to your own objectives there is no plan. tIt is a lot of if's that have to come together to work if we are looking to beat the top four armies ( Eldar/Tau/Daemons/IG). I see many suggetions on this thread but I find it hard to be optimistic.
Honestly, you have to adjust your expectations. Tyranids can still win against the majority of the armies, but just like in last edition, it will have problems against 2 of the top armies as well as a couple of RPS (rock-paper-scissors) builds. Against these armies (or these particular army builds), we will always struggle. Certain factors will help - favorable psychic powers and/or mission and deployment types - but there is no sugar-coating the tough matchups. Barring extreme dice, don't expect to dominate in those matchups. Instead, expect close wins when bugs do win....and sometimes by the skin of their teeth!
Naw wrote: I have always wanted to play the bugs but never did. Now I've decided to give them a try. I just don't like painting, so I'm looking for advice how to do this in an easy way, ie. with as few models as possible?
We usually play at 1500 points, this is what I have in mind:
HQ 2 Flyrants with 2 TL Devourers 460
Elite
Venomthrope 45
2 Zoanthropes 100
Heavy support
2 Carnifex with 2 TL Devourers 300
Tyrannofex with adrenal and another template weapon 200
Leaves me with around 400 pts.
How to fill up the troops? Originally I thought of having a Tervigon and 30 Termagants, but painting 40 little bugs sounds quite annoying and time consuming (with my skill).
Could I just run some genestealers instead? Or maybe have Flyrant be a hive commander and 2 groups of 3 Tyranid warriors?
How about:
FA Hive Crone 155
Troops
4 Tyranid warriors with 3 Deathspitter and Barbed strangler 145
3 Tyranid warriors 90
But what I'd really like to see is for you to drop 1 zoanthrope and both barbed stranglers (or stranglethorns?, forgot the name as I don't really run them) and get yourself a bastion. But that's just my preference.
If you're trying to save points an imperial bunker is 20 points cheaper and has the same model capacity as a bastion and has more fire points. It's also a great "vehicle" to infiltrate gene stealers into and let them actually assault.
I don't really need two zoanthropes for synapse, but I like redundancy there as they are pretty good with anti-tank. However I could go with 2x 4 plain warriors instead. That's quite a many wounds in total coming at you. I would not need to babysit the backfield which is also a big bonus.
I am not sold on the bastion, but it could be my meta. We don't really do flyers besides my daemon princes, but do utilize a lot of melta.
I can lose my warriors as I'd anyway try to table my opponent. If I had some gants in a bastion waiting to junp out I'd just have to split my forces for synapse.
Now with this setup I would not need to worry about it. Besides, 10 gants are 10 more annoying models to paint
I'm still wrapping my head around on how to beat Eldau and Taudar. I've had a few games and results have varied drastically. I will be playing on Sunday ...
So how would you deploy? I had reaper cc tyrant, desthleaper, 2 squads lictors, 3 stealer squads (two with broodlord), ten gants in a comms bastion, 2 crones and two mawlocs.
My opponent had buffmander, 3 broadsides (SMS HYM 2 drones, interceptor), riptide, WK, DA in serpents, seer, warp spiders, small outflanking kroot squad, aegis.
The problem here is that the broadside unit can rip my leaper to shreds if he is within 30" easily. If I DS or outflank he has interceptor. Sure horror can help if I can survive within distance but I sure cannot set up the Mawlocs safely for no scatter. I need to hide the flyrant and crones first turn also.
So how would you deploy and advance?
How you deploy will depend on terrain. Ideally, you have some LOS blocking ruins that you can infiltrate your deathleaper, lictors, and stealers into (broodlord out front to tank wounds). I would reserve your Mawlocs and Crones.
Place your Bastion just out of your deployment zone, blocking LOS to your Tyrant who is just inside your deployment zone. Your Gaunts can be in your tyrants synapse turn 1, and then go into the bastion turn 2. Turn 1 you do nothing but hide and move your Gaunts into the bastion (and fire bastion's bolters).
Exactly what I did.
Now I am contemplating on using FoR, placing it midfield for hugeass LoS block, advancing all my flyrants-gargoiles-shrikes towards it turn one and then flying from behind it and charging turn 2 (or holding mid field if opponent castles in his backfield). Soe Lictors/genestealers can be infiltrated inside the FoR to direct it's guns too.
What would you think of this trick?
So far today I had to scratch build/convert/paint 2 biovores and spore mines for a surprise tournament tomorrow. Thankfully I had the Guard kit lying around and this guide here.
Also some bad pics of my Harpy. I've since lifted her base so that she's not dipping down towards the ground and looks normal/proper.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So here's the list Im taking, but its not to late to change it. Critiques are welcome and appreciated, I'd like to go do good for a Tyranid.
1850pts
2 Flyrants, one with HVC and Reaper, the other with STC and LashwhipBS/toxin sacs combo. Both have HC Venomthrope
Tervigon (troop)
30 Gants w/10 Devourers (Outflanking)
6 Warriors w/devourers, 1 Barbed Strangler, 1 Lashwhip/BS, all with Rending Claws (Outflanking)
Harpy
Crone
Crone
Biovore Brood (2)
Mawloc
I wanted all of my list to have a singularity to it, which is hitting the opponents deployment. I therefore lost my Dakkafexes because I felt they were awesome, but stuck out as a walker. Same thing for
Trygon since this was 1850 pts. I kept Mawloc for her cost and for the fear she causes with deployment. Flyrants are NOT being rushed in but are instead buffing first turn/taking pot shots and staying alive
so that they can help headhunt. Warrior brood is also a headhunter unit. Tervigon will be pushing forward fast. The 30 gants are a distraction that will hopefully catch a lot of bullets.
Thanks for any advice. Also wanted to know if its the consensus that its better to run the Biovores together or as two separate units.
Naw wrote: I don't really need two zoanthropes for synapse, but I like redundancy there as they are pretty good with anti-tank. However I could go with 2x 4 plain warriors instead. That's quite a many wounds in total coming at you. I would not need to babysit the backfield which is also a big bonus.
I am not sold on the bastion, but it could be my meta. We don't really do flyers besides my daemon princes, but do utilize a lot of melta.
I can lose my warriors as I'd anyway try to table my opponent. If I had some gants in a bastion waiting to junp out I'd just have to split my forces for synapse.
Now with this setup I would not need to worry about it. Besides, 10 gants are 10 more annoying models to paint
You could stuff some genestealers in there by Infiltrate...no need for Synapse, and a big bad CC unit of Troops
I played a game today versus Tyranids with a Bastion. TBH I wasn't very impressed... It creates a very static list I think it will have lots of problems taking objectives outside its deployment zone. You have an extended cover save bubble where lots of your army goes and it does not encourage aggressive play... Eldar and Tau will have a field day and you can only hide so much. I was very impressed with the Exocrine though... I could easily see taking two. I don't think the Flyrant is all that great as it's quite fragile now without Biomancy. The Tervigon I'm not really liking all that much either anymore... It just can't do what it did with all the nerfs now.
Iechine wrote: So far today I had to scratch build/convert/paint 2 biovores and spore mines for a surprise tournament tomorrow. Thankfully I Thanks for any advice. Also wanted to know if its the consensus that its better to run the Biovores together or as two separate units.
Definitely 2 separate units (if you have space in the FOC, which you do).
Tyranids can still win against the majority of the armies, but just like in last edition, it will have problems against 2 of the top armies as well as a couple of RPS (rock-paper-scissors) builds. Against these armies (or these particular army builds), we will always struggle.
Which was my point yes. Unfortunately those top two armies appear quite regularly. The RPS builds are a bit more rare although my second army which I play regularly is an RPS build - grav Iron Hands with SW Rune Priest ally ( I cannot even begin to say how good an RP is now in the current meta against the top armies) also is tough against Nids. I don't have high expectations playing against these lists, lol. I muddle through those match ups.
Gatekeeper wrote: Thought occurred to me, if you run Tyranids with Tyranids allied can you then take 3 Winged HT's, and 4 Heavy Supports? Would that work?
You can't ally with yourself unless you have a crazy supplement like the farsighted enclave.
Gatekeeper wrote: Thought occurred to me, if you run Tyranids with Tyranids allied can you then take 3 Winged HT's, and 4 Heavy Supports? Would that work?
You can't ally with yourself unless you have a crazy supplement like the farsighted enclave.
It's so unfair. Tau, Eldar and Marines can ally with themselves. Not only can we not take allies, but we can't even ally with ourselves!
So I have my first tournament with the new Tyranids coming this Saturday, it's 1650 points.And I manged to get my first test game in yesterday! Which was only my second game with the new codex!
The list I used was this..
Selections:
+ HQ + (510pts)
* Hive Tyrant (280pts) Hive Commander, The Reaper of Obliterax, Twin-Linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings
The army I played was a Dark Angels force with allied Grey Knights and a Inquisitor Warlord.
A rough estimate of his list was
Dark Angels Librarian
Black Knights
2 Land Speeders
3 Ravenwing bikes
2 5 man Tactical squads in Razorbacks
5 man melta/combimelta droppod Sternguard unit.
6 man Devastator unit,4 missiles, Sgt and ablative wound.
Grey Knight Strike Squad Grey Knight Inquisitor
Inquisitor
The mission was The Scouring and Deployment Hammer + Anvil, so things were stacked against me from the start.
I won't do a battle report because I can't remember to much of it.
But things I did learn, Tyrants die quick if you are too aggressive with them! I fed my opponent First Blood and Slay the Warlord first turn, it was an uphill battle after that.
My list has to much of a split in it, between stuff that wants to move up, and stuff that doesn't so I ended up getting disjointed and being picked apart.
I'm thinking about a few changes in my list, but I'm a bit limited about time and models I have painted. I'm considering dropping the Tervigon all together, and maybe putting a small Warrior Squad or 2 in there. Also I'm considering dropping a Carnifex to fit a Mawloc in the list.
What do you guys think, where would you make the changes?
Edit. The possible changes I'm thinking about are, drop the Tervigon, drop the Gargoyles, drop a Carnifex, change the Reaper of Obliterax to a Lash Whip and Bonesword. Add in a Hive Crone (this would be a massive ask to get it built and painted in time!), and 2 units of 3 Warriors with stock load outs and add a Mawloc ( I have to Trygons built and painted so if I can't get my Mawloc painted in time I can just use those.) This will leave me with 15 points to spare.
What about just changing the Reaper to another TLdev with brainleech? For heavy support, I'd try out a Mawloc or two! I would make the Carnifexes have all TLdevs and no scytals, if you can make the points for them.
Noctem wrote: What about just changing the Reaper to another TLdev with brainleech? For heavy support, I'd try out a Mawloc or two! I would make the Carnifexes have all TLdevs and no scytals, if you can make the points for them.
That's more a WYSIWYG thing than a tactical choice.
Played a tournament yesterday and got some good data.
My first matchup and only loss was against none other than Eric Hoerger, the nice gentleman who won 2nd at the LVO last weekend. He used the same list although I apologize that I cant remember what he added in to make it to 1850 pts, he had 2 storm talons
and something else.
I actually didnt realize who he was until after the game when he told me, but I'm glad I got to play against a top tier list and player.
I went first and rushed my crones/harpy/flyrants. I inflicted a few wounds but the real joy came 2nd turn when everything came in and outflanked perfectly.
Unfortunately, my guys were just not able to capitalize on that turn, and despite killing some units the bikes were able to break out and go down the center to engage the Tervigon. My flyrants moved down to follow and I lost 26 gaunts to the thunderfire
cannon. My crones flew off the board which was a great move on my part, however when they came back on they whiffed on bringing down his newly arrived storm talons, despite rolling explosion results for haywire. A two flyrant combat ensued that killed
many bikers, but again they were able to hit and run out of there. Tervigon died in that combat. The game ended with 8-5 in kill points and he controlled more objectives.
I really like how well my Tyranids performed and I learned a lot about bikers/white scars. I blame myself and inexperience, I think they could have done better.
Game two was against a mechdar list:
4 Wave Serpents w/scatter lasers (5 DA in each)
2 Fire Prisms
2xLarge warp spider groups (I think about 6-8 in each) with an aspect warrior attached I believe, it improved reserve rolls)
3xWar walkers outflanking w/Starcannons
Crimson hunter w/Exarch
We played Vanguard strike, with the relic in the center and objectives in each of the 4 corners. He went first.
Turn 1 I deployed my Mawloc on the table because I wanted her to dive and come up on turn 3 when there were actual targets on the board, however this proved to be a mistake because Warpspiders ate her alive. With extra wounds inflicted on my Tyrants, I was worried immediately. But my crones and harpy were off the board. My flyrant was in a position to be brought down and it was a situation where it took a good chunk of his army trying to bring him down to do it. He had disembarked 10 DA to help do this, but that was a mistake. Both crones came on turn 2, one vector striking and destroying a warwalker, glancing a Prism, then one melted 9 Dire Avengers with drool cannon. The other fired a single tentaclid at the crimson hunter, I rolled a 6, and he couldnt jink it, so one shotted the Crimson Hunter out of the sky.
^ thats the end of his turn 2.
His next turn went worse for him as one of his serpents became immobilized. My warlord tyrant (red winged one) lived and flew off the board, vector striking and killing the last warwalker shown there. My 30 gant blob outflanked on the Warrior's side, and they served to shoot down
the last lone Dire avenger and secure the corner objective. My warriors ran towards my edge the rest of the game to secure the bottom corner objective.
^ bottom right corner.
The Harpy did...not a lot, all day. She vector struck and killed off some Warp Spiders, her cannon never pinned any one. The rest of the game was shooting down Warp Spiders, and one crone flew off and came back on to melt another group of DIre Avengers in the Bottom Right corner
trying to hold an objective. My Tyrant died to mass shooting, but both crones kept going to work and I eventually killed his last group of DA's with bile. I was unable to secure the relic once all gaunts were dead, Tervigon couldnt grab it. But a solid win.
My final game was unfortunately against Tyranids, a matchup I never really have any fun with. I knew his list would fall to mine. He had one flyrant, swarmlord with guard, exocrine, two mawlocs, large gant blobs, a tervigon, one zoanthrope, venomthrope and 3 hive guard. Also
a small genestealer brood outflanking. This isnt mean egotistically, but my only regret is I didnt crush his army more. I stole the initiative, but I made a boneheaded move turn two and basically wasted a huge right push by moving my Flyrant warlord up to assault his flyrant...who
had swooped. AGH. So my grounded Flyrant got shot and vector striked off the board, easily the dumbest move of the day. But I just ignored his blobs and Swarmlord, handled the Flyrant and Mawlocs in my backfield and used my Biovores to keep the herds at bay. My outflanking
gaunts tied up his backfield, my warriors killed off the genestealers then instakilled the other mawloc. I even ignored the exocrine, and just focused on threat removal. I secured enough points in the Scouring and held my Emperors will for the win.
^ My turn 1
So for the day I learned a lot, and I understand how these tournaments work better and that every little point can help. The results are on TOF somewhere but I cant seem to access them, if anyone can help thatd be great. I finished in the middle, so much so that I won a 'middle of the road' award, a $25 gift certificate for the store, so I'm actually glad I landed where I did. My list for the day was
1850
Flyrant w/Reaper and HVC, HC Flyrant w/LW/BS and STC, HC, toxin sacs
Venomthrope
Tervigon
30 gants/10 devourers (outflank)
6 Warriors w/rending claws, devourers, barbed strangler and LW/BS (outflank)
Mawloc
Biovore brood x2
Crone
Crone
Harpy
Things I would change? The venomthrope is leaving because in this list it just doesnt carry any weight. Everyone is gone on turn 1. I didnt want to spam Crones, but damnit if Harpy didnt do much of anything. I'll either have to add in a crone or swing in a Trygon or second Mawloc, something with backfield disruption. Also, I think I'd like some thorax weapons on Flyrants because the vectorstriking then flaming is a trait I'd like to have all my flyers rocking.
Which is true, but the utility of the Crone keeps me wanting more. If I'm using a Harpy and bombing a unit that can be affected by s4 ap4, then why not just vector strike with strength 8 close enough to flame them afterwards?
Iechine wrote: Which is true, but the utility of the Crone keeps me wanting more. If I'm using a Harpy and bombing a unit that can be affected by s4 ap4, then why not just vector strike with strength 8 close enough to flame them afterwards?
Because being close is not a friendly tactic for these MCs...not until the whole army is ready to do it at once.
You want to know how to run Harpies and Crones...read up a little on Crimson Hunter Tactics...I've been finding that they play remarkably similar.
I have noticed from several battle reports that flyrants are always played aggressively and usually end up giving both FB and StW. They are easy targets being all alone in the front.
Naw wrote: I have noticed from several battle reports that flyrants are always played aggressively and usually end up giving both FB and StW. They are easy targets being all alone in the front.
Your Warlord should never be a flyrant.
Your flyrant also has no reason to give up first blood, he can hide in the backfield or in reserves in order to kill before getting killed.
Simply put, too many players rush the enemy instead of sticking with their forces like they should. I found myself holding my flyrants back 2-3 turns in every game...so I just switched to the Swarmlord and decided to get 3 powers and a free USR out of it...as well as the lynchpin.
Gatekeeper wrote: Thought occurred to me, if you run Tyranids with Tyranids allied can you then take 3 Winged HT's, and 4 Heavy Supports? Would that work?
You can't ally with yourself unless you have a crazy supplement like the farsighted enclave.
It's so unfair. Tau, Eldar and Marines can ally with themselves. Not only can we not take allies, but we can't even ally with ourselves!
What is worst...tha base C:SM codex can ally with the base C:SM codex...and they didn't give nids that option
ductvader wrote: Anyone else realize that we can take a fortress of redemption with krakstorm missiles and a void shield for...200 + 1.5 Zoanthropes in pts?
As my personal redoubt was loaded at 265 for similar weapons...I was wondering what others thought of this.
Big....
I can imagine running the Swarmlord with 9 hive guards and 9 biovores with the Fortress. That's a lot of LOS-blocking terrain there. And if you can embark them into the Fortress, even better.
Eldercaveman wrote: So I have my first tournament with the new Tyranids coming this Saturday, it's 1650 points.And I manged to get my first test game in yesterday! Which was only my second game with the new codex!
The list I used was this..
Selections:
+ HQ + (510pts)
* Hive Tyrant (280pts)
Hive Commander, The Reaper of Obliterax, Twin-Linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings
The army I played was a Dark Angels force with allied Grey Knights and a Inquisitor Warlord.
A rough estimate of his list was
Dark Angels Librarian
Black Knights
2 Land Speeders
3 Ravenwing bikes
2 5 man Tactical squads in Razorbacks
5 man melta/combimelta droppod Sternguard unit.
6 man Devastator unit,4 missiles, Sgt and ablative wound.
Grey Knight Strike Squad
Grey Knight Inquisitor
Inquisitor
The mission was The Scouring and Deployment Hammer + Anvil, so things were stacked against me from the start.
I won't do a battle report because I can't remember to much of it.
But things I did learn, Tyrants die quick if you are too aggressive with them! I fed my opponent First Blood and Slay the Warlord first turn, it was an uphill battle after that.
My list has to much of a split in it, between stuff that wants to move up, and stuff that doesn't so I ended up getting disjointed and being picked apart.
I'm thinking about a few changes in my list, but I'm a bit limited about time and models I have painted. I'm considering dropping the Tervigon all together, and maybe putting a small Warrior Squad or 2 in there. Also I'm considering dropping a Carnifex to fit a Mawloc in the list.
What do you guys think, where would you make the changes?
Edit. The possible changes I'm thinking about are, drop the Tervigon, drop the Gargoyles, drop a Carnifex, change the Reaper of Obliterax to a Lash Whip and Bonesword. Add in a Hive Crone (this would be a massive ask to get it built and painted in time!), and 2 units of 3 Warriors with stock load outs and add a Mawloc ( I have to Trygons built and painted so if I can't get my Mawloc painted in time I can just use those.) This will leave me with 15 points to spare.
Your list is fine. I play with this type of list most of the time. The zoan and venom can be liabilities if there is no LOS-blocking terrain, but it really is up to personal preference whether you want to take fortifications or not.
Here are my recommendations:
1. Give 1 of your flyrants Hive Commander. It gives your army some more flexibility.
2. Tactics-wise, depending on the situation, in many cases it is wiser to hold your flyrants back a turn. Let the rest of your army get into position. Don't always be tempted with trying to get First Blood. Sometimes, you may even want to consider flying your flyrants off the table only to have them come back in next turn with the rest of the army. Though in Hammer-&-Anvil deployments, I don't normally do this.
3. I realize this may be a modeling issue, but the optimal build for dakkafexes are 2x TL-D's. Drop the Adrenals in order to give them the 2nd set of devourers. You want to keep your flyrants as cheap as possible anyways because they are a high priority target (Hive Commander is the only option I would consider other than their guns).
Naw wrote: I have noticed from several battle reports that flyrants are always played aggressively and usually end up giving both FB and StW. They are easy targets being all alone in the front.
Your Warlord should never be a flyrant.
Your flyrant also has no reason to give up first blood, he can hide in the backfield or in reserves in order to kill before getting killed.
Simply put, too many players rush the enemy instead of sticking with their forces like they should. I found myself holding my flyrants back 2-3 turns in every game...so I just switched to the Swarmlord and decided to get 3 powers and a free USR out of it...as well as the lynchpin.
Well if you only run Flyrants as HQ or Flyrants and a Tervigon, he kind of has to be.
I agree though, they should be held back, they have the speed to make a big hit move when the opportunityy shows itself. And this was a mistake I made in my last game. Never chase the knockout.
Iechine wrote: Played a tournament yesterday and got some good data.
My first matchup and only loss was against none other than Eric Hoerger, the nice gentleman who won 2nd at the LVO last weekend. He used the same list although I apologize that I cant remember what he added in to make it to 1850 pts, he had 2 storm talons
and something else.
I actually didnt realize who he was until after the game when he told me, but I'm glad I got to play against a top tier list and player.
I played against Eric as well....at the LVO. We were both 4-0 going into the crucial Game #5, where he knocked me out of the Championships. He's a very good player. Damn those White Scars. Lol.
Eldercaveman wrote: So I have my first tournament with the new Tyranids coming this Saturday, it's 1650 points.And I manged to get my first test game in yesterday! Which was only my second game with the new codex!
The list I used was this..
Selections:
+ HQ + (510pts)
* Hive Tyrant (280pts)
Hive Commander, The Reaper of Obliterax, Twin-Linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings
The army I played was a Dark Angels force with allied Grey Knights and a Inquisitor Warlord.
A rough estimate of his list was
Dark Angels Librarian
Black Knights
2 Land Speeders
3 Ravenwing bikes
2 5 man Tactical squads in Razorbacks
5 man melta/combimelta droppod Sternguard unit.
6 man Devastator unit,4 missiles, Sgt and ablative wound.
Grey Knight Strike Squad
Grey Knight Inquisitor
Inquisitor
The mission was The Scouring and Deployment Hammer + Anvil, so things were stacked against me from the start.
I won't do a battle report because I can't remember to much of it.
But things I did learn, Tyrants die quick if you are too aggressive with them! I fed my opponent First Blood and Slay the Warlord first turn, it was an uphill battle after that.
My list has to much of a split in it, between stuff that wants to move up, and stuff that doesn't so I ended up getting disjointed and being picked apart.
I'm thinking about a few changes in my list, but I'm a bit limited about time and models I have painted. I'm considering dropping the Tervigon all together, and maybe putting a small Warrior Squad or 2 in there. Also I'm considering dropping a Carnifex to fit a Mawloc in the list.
What do you guys think, where would you make the changes?
Edit. The possible changes I'm thinking about are, drop the Tervigon, drop the Gargoyles, drop a Carnifex, change the Reaper of Obliterax to a Lash Whip and Bonesword. Add in a Hive Crone (this would be a massive ask to get it built and painted in time!), and 2 units of 3 Warriors with stock load outs and add a Mawloc ( I have to Trygons built and painted so if I can't get my Mawloc painted in time I can just use those.) This will leave me with 15 points to spare.
Your list is fine. I play with this type of list most of the time. The zoan and venom can be liabilities if there is no LOS-blocking terrain, but it really is up to personal preference whether you want to take fortifications or not.
Here are my recommendations:
1. Give 1 of your flyrants Hive Commander. It gives your army some more flexibility.
2. Tactics-wise, depending on the situation, in many cases it is wiser to hold your flyrants back a turn. Let the rest of your army get into position. Don't always be tempted with trying to get First Blood. Sometimes, you may even want to consider flying your flyrants off the table only to have them come back in next turn with the rest of the army. Though in Hammer-&-Anvil deployments, I don't normally do this.
3. I realize this may be a modeling issue, but the optimal build for dakkafexes are 2x TL-D's. Drop the Adrenals in order to give them the 2nd set of devourers. You want to keep your flyrants as cheap as possible anyways because they are a high priority target (Hive Commander is the only option I would consider other than their guns).
Good luck!
Thanks for the feedback Jim...
1. Give 1 of your flyrants Hive Commander. It gives your army some more flexibility.
My Warlord Flyrant had Hive Commander, I forgot to list this above, my bad! I used it to outflank the unit of 30 Termagants, who almost shot the strike squad off the 4 point objective in his deployment zone. Before being shot by a Razorback, Mortis pattern Dreadnaught, Black knights and the remaining strike squad, all of these units (except the vehicles) then assaulted the Gants, and wiped them out over 3 phases.
2. Tactics-wise, depending on the situation, in many cases it is wiser to hold your flyrants back a turn. Let the rest of your army get into position. Don't always be tempted with trying to get First Blood. Sometimes, you may even want to consider flying your flyrants off the table only to have them come back in next turn with the rest of the army. Though in Hammer-&-Anvil deployments, I don't normally do this.
Yeah this was a big learning point for me, I was far to aggresive with them as I am still (in my head) playing them like biomancy beasts. Second game with this codex I don't think I had to bad an outing, I have 7 more games before the end of the Tournament on Saturday, by then I think I'll be a fair way down the learning curve.
But yes, I will be playing my Flyrants a lot more conservatively in the future.
3. I realize this may be a modeling issue, but the optimal build for dakkafexes are 2x TL-D's. Drop the Adrenals in order to give them the 2nd set of devourers. You want to keep your flyrants as cheap as possible anyways because they are a high priority target (Hive Commander is the only option I would consider other than their guns).
#
Yeah, I know my second Flyrant hasn't got the most optimal build but that is a WYSIWYG issue. In casual games I can get away with it, as the Devourers are made to look like double devourers. However, I do face a lot Demon princes in my area, so the Lash Whip and Bonesword has been a life saver in the past, but that was when it reduced initiative to 1. Untested with the new Swiftstrike rule.
Thanks for the feedback again, I have a 3k casual game on Wednesday morning, a 1650 practise game Wednesday evening and then the same on Thursday, before my Tournament on Saturday, so I'll be putting up all the results and learnings from those games as it happens.
I played against Eric as well....at the LVO. We were both 4-0 going into the crucial Game #5, where he knocked me out of the Championships. He's a very good player. Damn those White Scars. Lol.
Congrats against Eldar!
Yea but he's also nice, which is always good to lose to.
I cant help but consider that the Eldar player would have been much less wont to disembark his DA and pushed his Prisms up and around had he encountered Crones before. Having said that, one of the biggest issues I consistently run in to is
I just dont know other armies well enough yet. I often play blind and have to ask about some units over and over again, especially characters. So I dont feel too bad.
I played against Eric as well....at the LVO. We were both 4-0 going into the crucial Game #5, where he knocked me out of the Championships. He's a very good player. Damn those White Scars. Lol.
Congrats against Eldar!
Yea but he's also nice, which is always good to lose to.
I cant help but consider that the Eldar player would have been much less wont to disembark his DA and pushed his Prisms up and around had he encountered Crones before. Having said that, one of the biggest issues I consistently run in to is
I just dont know other armies well enough yet. I often play blind and have to ask about some units over and over again, especially characters. So I dont feel too bad.
Yeah, Eric is really cool. He was actually my Vegas roommate and we both went into our games pretty drunk already. Lol.
It's definitely helpful to know other people's armies. I can't say how much knowledge has helped me in many of my games. As a matter of fact, I contribute a lot of my wins to me knowing my opponent's armies a lot better than my opponents knowing mine. You know what they say....knowledge is power.
