Naw wrote: I have noticed from several battle reports that flyrants are always played aggressively and usually end up giving both FB and StW. They are easy targets being all alone in the front.
I agree with this assessment. I do not think they are nearly as good now with the loss of Biomancy but people still keep playing them like they are unstoppable. I wouldn't take more than one.
^ Yep. Running them with HVC and headhunting with the Reaper or LW/BS combo has kept my Tyrants alive and kicking ass for many games now. Vector striking vehicles, pegging tanks and instakilling crisis suits until you're able to assault a high value target/hide in a blob is a lot of fun.
Naw wrote: I have noticed from several battle reports that flyrants are always played aggressively and usually end up giving both FB and StW. They are easy targets being all alone in the front.
I agree with this assessment. I do not think they are nearly as good now with the loss of Biomancy but people still keep playing them like they are unstoppable. I wouldn't take more than one.
If they take a full turn of shooting to kill both, you're doing okay tho, try and ensure you GET first blood with em, use whatever LOS you can to help them survive, your enemy is gonna WANT to kill them, he's scared of them, use that to your advantage.
So how are you guys rolling your psychic powers out?
I personally have been rollings them in the following order.
1. Zoanthropes
2. Tervigons
3. Tyrants
I figured that the Zoanthrope benefitted the least from the bulk of the powers and would therefore be more likely to want to take dominion...so I should look into rolling him first and take dominion as necessary...this prevents me from being stuck with a power that he's not suited for in case I've already gotten dominion with my other psykers.
The Tervigon was next for being the next step up on the totem pole, less likely than a zoey to take the primaris, but still might do so for it's general purpose of being a synapse placeholder.
Tyrants are of course last because because they benefit the most from each of the powers and therefore would want to trade for dominion less than the others. But still have the option to in case your other psykers got great powers and you're feeling a little synapse light for running across an open gap.
So, what order do you tend to line up your psykers when picking their powers?
When I started I was doing it completely the other way around...Tyrants first...and I've found that my tyrants are maximized much better this way.
To be fair, this was my opponent's first game against the new bugs. I'm not sure he fully digested the info I told him with regards to the new mawlocs. Either that or he just plain forgot.
Stormbreed wrote: Great job JY2, hopefully I have the same success at Dark Star coming up early March.
Good luck!
I think Tyranids are shaping up to be an army that can finish above-average in a large tourney, but will struggle to win them due to the number of Tau and Eldar players you usually find at the top. On the bright side, I think we match up slightly better against Eldar than we do against Tau and it is looking like Eldar is dominating Tau as the top army currently.
Naw wrote: I have noticed from several battle reports that flyrants are always played aggressively and usually end up giving both FB and StW. They are easy targets being all alone in the front.
I agree with this assessment. I do not think they are nearly as good now with the loss of Biomancy but people still keep playing them like they are unstoppable. I wouldn't take more than one.
If they take a full turn of shooting to kill both, you're doing okay tho, try and ensure you GET first blood with em, use whatever LOS you can to help them survive, your enemy is gonna WANT to kill them, he's scared of them, use that to your advantage.
Going for FB typically means you are sticking them right out there in the danger zone. I don't think it is always worth it.
jy2 wrote: I think Tyranids are shaping up to be an army that can finish above-average in a large tourney, but will struggle to win them due to the number of Tau and Eldar players you usually find at the top. On the bright side, I think we match up slightly better against Eldar than we do against Tau and it is looking like Eldar is dominating Tau as the top army currently.
As an avid Eldar and Tyranid player I can say two things in particular.
1. My Eldar never has a problem defeating Tau or Taudar...it's barely a challenge.
2. Most Eldar lists can't hande a semi-horde or better army...we don't have enough shots.
(Sure, Eldar has some ignores cover, but shooting that at termagants is a complete waste, and Crones are much better against us than against Tau, the Hunter can't kill a Crone in one go unless we can get it to faceplant into the rocks.
I played Tau twice this weekend. He brought a list that was a hard counter to the list I ran game one (Cfexes) so I requested a rematch against a list I had some success with against Tau.
His List
Spoiler:
Buffmander Farsight Commander with 4 deny the witch rolls
2 Riptides (one had rerolls on Nova charges, and Skyfire)
1 Crises Suite with 2 Flamers - Reserves 3 Missle Suites With about 5 Marker drones (Target Locks). 20 Kroot (Sniper rifles, 2 Kroot Hound) - possibly other upgrades 10 Kroot (Sniper rifles) 10 Kroot (Sniper rifles)
3 Misslesides (Target Locks) 3 Sniper Drones with a Marksman. Sky-Ray Sky-Ray
My Game 1 list:
Spoiler:
Flyrant (Wings, 2 TL-devourer, Hive Commander) Tyranid Prime (BS + LW, Scything Talons) - My Warlord
2 Biovores 3 CFexes (2 had 2 TL Devouers, 1 Was Scytal only as a wound bank, all had adrenals) 1 Exocrine
Bastion
Game One: The Scouring, Dawn of War.
Spoiler:
My Turn 1: I chose to go 2nd , but then stole the Initiative. Unfortunately, I didn't roll Onslaught, and so was unable to do much besides kill 4 Kroot, and make him GTG with a couple units which was reversed by his warlord trait. I advanced in a very careful way. My Flyrant stayed out of LOS, and everything else stayed in my Shrouded bubble. My front CFex (with the Sytals) had 2+ cover, and the rest of the fexes had 3+. I joined my Prime to My Exocrine to tank wounds if needed, and moved them so that LOS was blocked from his broadsides. His Turn 1: He shot everything at the Cfexes and killed them outright before they had fired a shot. 465 points of waste. My Turn 2: My Tgaunts came in, and between them and the biovores they dropped the 20 man Kroot unit down to 4. My Exocrine Focused fire on his Buffmander which was joined to his Broadsides, and out of Cover. He passed all of His LOS's, and Passed all of his 4+ Cover Saves. I moved up my HGaunts to put them right in his face for next turn. I also advanced my Flyrant on one flank, and shot at side armor on one Skyray. 10 Hits 0 Glances. His Turn 2: He took some shots at the Exocrine, but only ended up with 2 wounds. He killed 1/2 of the Tgaunts, and they failed their leadership, and ran. He Killed my Zoey that was moving up that side to provide the Gaunts with Synapse. My Turn 3: I assaulted a Riptide with my poisoned HGaunts, and used that unit to slingshot my Prime into combat with the Riptide. My other HGaunts wiped out a 10 man squad of Kroot. My Exocrine went after the Broadsides again, and killed one, but my Flyrant put 11 wounds on the rest, and they made their saves. His Turn 3: He shot my flyrant out of the air with his Skyrays, and then finished it off. He killed 17 of my 20 normal HGaunts. He shot everything else at my Exocrine, and barely managed to Kill it. I was ready to concede, but we played out the assault phase to see if my prime plus 16 Poison HGaunts could end a Riptide. They did a pile of wounds, but he only failed one save. Meanwhile he killed 2 Gaunts, so Technically he even won combat just to add a little salt to my wounds. I conceded. I would have been tabled on Turn 4. (All I had left was 6 Devil Gaunts, 1 Zthrope, 1 Vthrope, and 2 Biovores, Plus 14 Poison HGaunts with a prime. Meanwhile he lost about 35 Kroot, 1 Markerlight, and 1 Broadside. ) Tau Win: 7 - 0
My Turn 1: I deployed 1st. There were tons of Ruins on the board, but only 1 of them was LOS blocking (same terrain as game 1). So I ended up with my Genesteelers, and Warriors in normal ruins but visible. He Deployed in one corner on multi-level terrain to make it difficult for my Mawlocs, and outflankers. In Movement, I advanced my Steelers, and moved around the bastion a bit to get out of LOS with everything I could (not warriors or Steelers). His Turn 1: He killed everything he could see Nova charged ordinance took out the Warriors. The Steelers died to massed fire. My HGaunts survived because they were in the far corner, and not really in range. My Turn 2: 2 Mawlocs came in (I rolled 2, and rerolled a 1). The first scattered, and hit nothing, the 2nd took out 2 Suites plus 2-3 marker lights. One of my TGaunts came in on his corner, but only really had LOS + Range on a Riptide 2 Wounds. The other Squad came in on the far side of the board. I advanced my Flyrants, and shot up his Broadsides (1 Dead, 1 with 1 Wound). His Turn 2: Only his flamer suite came in and barbequed 8 Gaunts. He shot everything into my Flyrants. One took 3 wounds but stayed airborne. The other took 1 Wound, and failed Grounding (I passed 7 of 8 grounding). He charged my grounded Flyrant with a Riptide, and did 2 more wounds, while my Flyrant only did 1 wound which he saved on his invul. My Turn 3: My last Mawloc deep struck on the remaining suites but scattered (11 inches) and misshaped off the board into ongoing reserves. My TGaunts, HGaunts, and Zoey from the far side ran. My Tgaunts on the near side shot into the Broadsides, and put a wound on one (2 left with 1 a piece). Then they assaulted and did nothing. My 1 Wound flyrant dropped to the ground and shot at his Suites squad, and killed his Commander with the Deny the Witch upgrade. 1 Mawloc charged a Skyray and killed it. The other charged the Suites squad, and my flyrant failed his 7" charge on that same squad. My Mawloc killed a drone in CC. Then that squad hit and ran. Argh! I hate Buffmander. My Flyrant did 1 Wound to the Riptide, but took no wounds, and the Riptide passed leadership. His Turn 3: His Kroot all came in. The large squad arrived in the same corner as all of the action, and the 2 small squads arrive in the far corner where I had my objective. He Killed my unengaged Flyrant with his suites + Snipers. And Killed one Mawloc. In Assault, my TGaunts were now out of Synapse, and he made all of his saves, while killing 2 of them, so they ran. My Flyrant put one wound on his riptide, and it ran, and I overtook it and killed it. He consolidated toward the Buffmander squad. My Turn 4: I burrowed one Mawloc, and brought in the other on top of a squad of Kroot by my Objective. I reversed course on my Zoey, and HGaunts to go kill the Kroot, and My wrong side of the board TGaunts Kept moving to his corner, and were nearing his objective (Vacant, because I had chased his suites away). I Flew my Flyrant over to his Suite squad and killed everything but Buffmander. My TGaunts did the autorally, and killed the 2 remaining broadsides in Shooting. His Turn 4: He realized that I was poised to Claim his objective, and was contesting My own (Mawloc, and next turn HGaunts). So he ran his remaining Riptide, and flamer suite at his objective. He Joined Buffmander to the Kroot. Skyray + Sniper drones managed to finish off my Flyrant and get Warlord. He finished off my remaining Tgaunts on his side of the board. My Turn 5: I deep struck my Mawloc on his riptide (2 Wounds left) to prevent him from contesting his objective, but I scattered, and did nothing. My squad of 3 TGaunts moved through cover + ran a total of 5 inches which was enough to claim the objective with only 3 models. My Hgaunts moved into LOS blocking ruins to contest my objective. My Zoey in the middle of the board didn't have range on the riptide, but did lance the flamer suite to death. My Mawloc Assaulted and Killed one of the 10 man Kroot squads. Last one was contesting my objectives with 7 models left. Between HGaunts, Zoey, and Mawloc they would have died next turn. His Turn 5: His riptide managed to shoot and kill 4 Tgaunts essentially shooting my off of his objective. He killed my zoey in the middle of the board. If the game went to turn 6 or 7, My Mawloc + TGaunts would have killed the riptide (or at least tarpitted it), and my other Mawloc + Zoey + HGaunts would have killed the Kroot, and I would have claimed both objectives (if my TGaunts do ok with no Synapse). But the Game ended turn 5, so Tau wins 3(warlord, Linebreaker, Firstblood) to 1(linebreaker).
I am so annoyed by Tau, and their high wound, good save long range powerful shooting, and buffmander. I think I'm done playing any army with this Cheese unless we can agree on at least 4 pieces of LOS blocking terrain. Even with Kroot as a Handicap I still have to play a perfect game to get to a place where a turn 5 roll might win it for me. I outplayed my opponent, and got a little lucky, but it didn't really matter in the end, because Tau is just too strong.
Yeah, it can be rather frustrating playing against Tau. They just ignore so many of the normal rule mechanics. So far, my hardest matchups - and I'm talking about all my armies, not just my Tyranids - have been against Tau.
I think this thread has been an invaluable source of information for everyone! I know I've picked up quite a few tips; especially concerning what could be considered non-standard units like the swarmlord.
Awhile back, people mentioned having moderate success with raveners. Has anyone had a chance to do extensive testing with them to see how a list with them is fairing as opposed to the more popular lists? Or what about more warrior centric lists? I think it would be great if our little T4 backbones could finally make it back into the game!
eclipseoto wrote: I'm not knowledgeable enough in Mechdar, is that a pretty standard list or on the weaker side?
Mechdar is a really strong and competitive Eldar army.
Lechine's opponent's mechdar may not have been the most optimized Mechdar army, but it is still a very competitive Eldar army.
In that case good on ya! One of my friends runs one of the nastiest tau lists I've ever seen. A real tactician too. I'm hoping to compile a good enough list to put up a fight for the next time he visits.
Hey jy2, this is a list I changed from yesterday, whats your opinion on it?
1850
Flyrant w/Reaper and HVC, HC, Electroshock
Flyrant w/LW/BS and HVC, HC, toxin sacs, Electroshock
Tervigon
30 gants (no devs, 30 shots vs 50)
6 Warriors w/rending claws, devourers, barbed strangler and LW/BS (outflank)
Mawloc
Biovore brood x2
Crone
Crone
Crone (Harpy could stay and give Tyrants AG with minor tweaks)
Are the Tyrants top heavy in this list? Yes. But played 'properly' aggressive, they are flexible enough to vector or shoot tanks, shock tanks, or strength 5 template troops, and then assault targets of opportunity. The AG option ensures assaults and allows instant death on a lot of tough marine leaders.
A lot of points to put into 2 HQ's, but augmented with the three other fliers they are pretty damaging.
Iechine wrote: Hey jy2, this is a list I changed from yesterday, whats your opinion on it?
1850
Flyrant w/Reaper and HVC, HC, Electroshock
Flyrant w/LW/BS and HVC, HC, toxin sacs, Electroshock
Tervigon
30 gants (no devs, 30 shots vs 50)
6 Warriors w/rending claws, devourers, barbed strangler and LW/BS (outflank)
Mawloc
Biovore brood x2
Crone
Crone
Crone (Harpy could stay and give Tyrants AG with minor tweaks)
Are the Tyrants top heavy in this list? Yes. But played 'properly' aggressive, they are flexible enough to vector or shoot tanks, shock tanks, or strength 5 template troops, and then assault targets of opportunity. The AG option ensures assaults and allows instant death on a lot of tough marine leaders.
A lot of points to put into 2 HQ's, but augmented with the three other fliers they are pretty damaging.
If you want to play your flyrants from range (with HVC's), that's fine. They'll probably live just a little bit longer....as in 1 turn longer. However, to beat the top armies, you need volume-of-fire. Quality of shots is not as effective as quantity of shots. That's why personally, I prefer the brainleech devourers. Yeah, you have to put them more in harms way, but if you coordinate your attacks together with the rest of your army, I feel that you can have a more devastating beta-strike on Turn 2. It really boils down to how you would like to play them - either more aggressively or more conservatively.
I don't believe you need 3 crones. 2 is the most that I would use. The reason is that the crone is more of a niche unit rather than a flexible mainstay of the army. FMC-spam tyranids on the whole is a somewhat unbalanced army. While FMC-bugs is strong, you will come up to certain matchups who really don't care all that much for flyer-overload. Thus, I'd go no more than 4 flyers in my list (2 flyrants + 2 crones) and invest the rest of the points into a stronger ground presence. In other words, I'd prefer to take 2 crones + 2 mawlocs over 3 crones/harpy combo + 1 mawloc.
Nice melee list. I am running something similar. But why dont you make 6x 10 Hormagaunts instad of 3x 20? It would give you some advantages, narly no disadvantages and you can use two small units still like one big unit.
Yes they might be easy first blood but who has the free shots to kill some hormagaunts when there are shrikes, raveners and flyrants knocking on his door in turn 1?
Nice melee list. I am running something similar. But why dont you make 6x 10 Hormagaunts instad of 3x 20? It would give you some advantages, narly no disadvantages and you can use two small units still like one big unit.
Yes they might be easy first blood but who has the free shots to kill some hormagaunts when there are shrikes, raveners and flyrants knocking on his door in turn 1?
Definitely interesting...I don't like 10 man squads...but you've just convinced me to go to 4 15s...5 12s also feels a little light to me.
^ I agree with MasterOfGaunts, the benefits of MSU outweigh the negatives.
ductvader wrote: 2. Most Eldar lists can't hande a semi-horde or better army...we don't have enough shots.
Unfortunately they can still handle Tyranid hordes, as all you need to do to take out a Tyranid horde list is kill the Synapse units and watch the army dismantle itself. I don't consider horde to be viable with Nids at all as long as we keep these instinctive Behaviour rules, the only horde units that won't run off the table/kill 25% of themselves then run off the table are Gargoyles and Rippers, neither of which are scoring.
So I've been consistently rolling every power but Catalyst in my games (I think I've had 4 games in a row now with no Catalyst at all). I've never been so unhappy to not roll 1s.
PrinceRaven wrote: Every Zoanthrope you take in a brood gives you diminishing returns, I'd rather have 3 units of 1 than 1 unit of 3.
But...a list with six to nine puts out some decent damage as well as synapse coverage.
That's my point. Any army, especially Tyranids, have limited FOC slots. So whilst you have diminishing returns, another 200pts to flesh out my two single zoan squads, a good idea?
I mean, a hefty chunk of firepower and good Synapse coverage for a mere 150pts.
Hey jy2, this is a list I changed from yesterday, whats your opinion on it?
1850
Flyrant w/Reaper and HVC, HC, Electroshock
Flyrant w/LW/BS and HVC, HC, toxin sacs, Electroshock
Tervigon
30 gants (no devs, 30 shots vs 50)
6 Warriors w/rending claws, devourers, barbed strangler and LW/BS (outflank)
Mawloc
Biovore brood x2
Crone
Crone
Crone (Harpy could stay and give Tyrants AG with minor tweaks)
Are the Tyrants top heavy in this list? Yes. But played 'properly' aggressive, they are flexible enough to vector or shoot tanks, shock tanks, or strength 5 template troops, and then assault targets of opportunity. The AG option ensures assaults and allows instant death on a lot of tough marine leaders.
A lot of points to put into 2 HQ's, but augmented with the three other fliers they are pretty damaging.
Spoiler:
If you want to play your flyrants from range (with HVC's), that's fine. They'll probably live just a little bit longer....as in 1 turn longer. However, to beat the top armies, you need volume-of-fire. Quality of shots is not as effective as quantity of shots. That's why personally, I prefer the brainleech devourers. Yeah, you have to put them more in harms way, but if you coordinate your attacks together with the rest of your army, I feel that you can have a more devastating beta-strike on Turn 2. It really boils down to how you would like to play them - either more aggressively or more conservatively.
I don't believe you need 3 crones. 2 is the most that I would use. The reason is that the crone is more of a niche unit rather than a flexible mainstay of the army. FMC-spam tyranids on the whole is a somewhat unbalanced army. While FMC-bugs is strong, you will come up to certain matchups who really don't care all that much for flyer-overload. Thus, I'd go no more than 4 flyers in my list (2 flyrants + 2 crones) and invest the rest of the points into a stronger ground presence. In other words, I'd prefer to take 2 crones + 2 mawlocs over 3 crones/harpy combo + 1 mawloc
JY2, Could you expand on this a bit. What sort of matchups should Bug Flying Circus(BFC) fear. I've been paying attention to my local meta, and the only list I've seen that made me fear was an IG player who claimed he ran 3 hydras, 2 Vendettas and an Aegis with a Quad Gun, but that list is clearly tailored to be anti-flyer, and he didn't seem like a very confident player. The 9 skyfire broadsides + buffmander list is probably going to kill any other 'nid build nearly as effectively as it can kill BFC.
BFC seems like it can handle Mech better than most other Tyranid builds, and most of the lists that can beat it can also beat other 'nid builds just as well. Is there a Tyranid list that is good while not being unbalanced?
Also, have you decided that Mawlocs are the way to go for Heavy Support? I'm still interested in trying a 3 Exocrine list, and a 9 biovore list (carpet bombing), but am finding myself increasingly falling into this camp. Mawlocs + BFC seem like the (only?) way to give Tyranids mobility to compete with modern lists.
I'm not sure about Dakka Flyrants anymore... Maybe I'm just too aggressive.
Every game this weekend at a tournament they were the first things to die - and they were about the same range as the onslaughted triple Dakkafex broods. They're just really easy to kill, even with requiring snap shots.
rigeld2 wrote: I'm not sure about Dakka Flyrants anymore... Maybe I'm just too aggressive.
Every game this weekend at a tournament they were the first things to die - and they were about the same range as the onslaughted triple Dakkafex broods. They're just really easy to kill, even with requiring snap shots.
I dunno...
Your probably running them far too aggressively. They should hang with the mix of units in the first round, ideally behind a cover wall. They are fast enough to make up the difference in Turn 2.
About the Zoanthropes, I've tried them out a number of ways and found three units of one to be optimal back-up synapse and support.
I have run 3 units of 3 and they generally take quite a beating before they go down. Their 24/18 inch range and no means of closing the distance to the enemy means their no so hot offensively against many builds but that depends on your meta and general strategy. I don't take broods of three any more because volume of fire has increased as has the popularity of melee in my area, both of witch they are susceptible to. Added to their lack of mobility and they end up doing very little for me offensively.
Now I just run 2 or 3 minimum size broods, mostly there to catch units falling back due to loss of synapse and have more chances at Catalyst and Onslaught. It's also a cheap way of increasing my number of units that can be held in reserve which I always like to have options for even if I don't use them all the time.
Eldercaveman wrote: What viable alternatives do people think we have outside of Flyrants?
Crones bastions redoubt and the fortress of redemption...though You can handle av 11 fliers with dakkafexes.
Personally...my preferred enemy exocrine also adds his shots when necessary.
Sorry I meant viable HQ's.
I'm seriously looking at running a CC Prime and a Dakka Flyrant with Hive Commander. Outflank the Prime in a blob of 30 Termagants. And give the Flyrant a couple of Crones for support,
I like to run a prime with his two Venomthrope buddies - both are necessary in my lists, and he really shines in that role of bodyguard. The Venomthropes survive longer, and the Prime usually gets catapulted into some unsuspecting Marines come turn 3...
rigeld2 wrote: I'm not sure about Dakka Flyrants anymore... Maybe I'm just too aggressive.
Every game this weekend at a tournament they were the first things to die - and they were about the same range as the onslaughted triple Dakkafex broods. They're just really easy to kill, even with requiring snap shots.
I dunno...
Yep you are too aggressive, timing is everything, you want to be hitting their lines with more than your Flyrants in the same turn. Make target Priority a problem.
So basically aim for a turn 2 in your face with Flyrants, Crones, Mawlocs, Outflanking...
Try using 3 Venonthorpes in 3 diferent elite slots, try to be always in cover and in range of them for a 3+ or 2+ cover save. Try using 2 vengance weapon batteries to be sure you get those cover saves in both first and second turn. As you will use no zoanthorpes get 2 Tervigons, 1 with miasma cannon and the other with ESG thorax and use them extremly agresive runing up the whole termagants mass and witch they produce to give target saturation to enemy......
Using 2 Tervigons you will NEVER have sipnapse or scoring troop problems. Be sure to assault something in turn 4 with your mamis.
Use a single Mawloc for back lines disturvance as they are not really reliable but you still need to use 1 of them to avoid oponent turtling in a single cover place. Use 2 Biovores in 2 diferent unnits for the same utility. use 3 Hive Crones, they are jack of all trades...... first 2 turns keep them in venonthorpe range and use their misiles conservative...... after turn 2 go with them agressive.
The 3 Venonthorpes are the key of your army in the first 2 turns agains everything but Tau or Taudar, use them wisely and position them good.
Learn to play new tyranids.... forget 5th edition. we need 2-3 turns of shooting before going into melee....... we need to soften those meat balls before eating them alive.
Then again, Venonthorpes are the key, your whole army should run 2+/3+ cover saves during the first 4 turns.........
Vengance Weapon batteries are a godsent.... that F8ap3 blast really help our army and the cover save and LOS place they give is essential in low cover battlefields.
Learn to play new tyranids.... forget 5th edition. we need 2-3 turns of shooting before going into melee....... we need to soften those meat balls before eating them alive.
There is another way. We have enough fast units to get a whole army capable to assault in turn 2! Ductvader already posted such a list.
The mentioned units are:
- Flyrants
- Hormagaunts (1d6+3 run move with fleet)
- Genestealer
- Lictors
- Shrikes
- Gargoyles
- Reveners
- Rippers with Wings
- Harpy
- Crone
Venomthropes wont be a good choice in that sort of list, cause they are to slow to buff other units. In a Dakka-List they are must-haves, i agree on that.
Eldercaveman wrote: What viable alternatives do people think we have outside of Flyrants?
Crones bastions redoubt and the fortress of redemption...though You can handle av 11 fliers with dakkafexes.
Personally...my preferred enemy exocrine also adds his shots when necessary.
Sorry I meant viable HQ's.
I'm seriously looking at running a CC Prime and a Dakka Flyrant with Hive Commander. Outflank the Prime in a blob of 30 Termagants. And give the Flyrant a couple of Crones for support,
I do this a lot of the time.
Prime with (Boneswords, Adrenal, Toxin, Scytals)
On the charge he's much more likely to kill a Tyrant of equal points.
The Prime is great because he's a great utility piece...if you're running one...give him a few options for a posse...Hive Guard (T6 and I recommend Regen), Termagants, Warriors, Fexes, Genestealers and Lictors are all great options.
Hormagaunts are good if you have multiple squads...so you don't lose bounding leap but you maintain some coherency between units so you can slingshot him into assault.
Eldercaveman wrote: What viable alternatives do people think we have outside of Flyrants?
Crones bastions redoubt and the fortress of redemption...though You can handle av 11 fliers with dakkafexes.
Personally...my preferred enemy exocrine also adds his shots when necessary.
Sorry I meant viable HQ's.
I'm seriously looking at running a CC Prime and a Dakka Flyrant with Hive Commander. Outflank the Prime in a blob of 30 Termagants. And give the Flyrant a couple of Crones for support,
I do this a lot of the time.
Prime with (Boneswords, Adrenal, Toxin, Scytals)
On the charge he's much more likely to kill a Tyrant of equal points.
The Prime is great because he's a great utility piece...if you're running one...give him a few options for a posse...Hive Guard (T6 and I recommend Regen), Termagants, Warriors, Fexes, Genestealers and Lictors are all great options.
Hormagaunts are good if you have multiple squads...so you don't lose bounding leap but you maintain some coherency between units so you can slingshot him into assault.
I'm thinking Boneswords and Miasma Cannon. Outflanking with the .termagant blob. That's some nasty firepower on your flank, with a scary charge if you don't deal with it.
Indeed, but in a world of armies that suck at combat and overly expensive Primes...A Lash Whip is a hard sell for me when you have I5...and aren't AP2.
Indeed, but in a world of armies that suck at combat and overly expensive Primes...A Lash Whip is a hard sell for me when you have I5...and aren't AP2.
I face a lot of Demon Princes, so for me it could be worth the extra points.
Here's something I did last night that I think will help our FMC's out a bit. Please call me out if you feel this is MFA.
Most players will mount the cross pieces of their flight stands, so that the nose of the plane/flyer is parallel with the longer axis of the oval base. If you measure the base in inches, it's something like 4.5"x5.5". I've taken my flight stems for my FMC's (harpy, crone) and rotated it 90 degrees, so that the nose of the flyer is facing the shorter part of the oval. It's not much, but with a 24" only move, the extra inch to inch and a half of free space will help pull off some moves and vector strikes that would be impossible or very narrow if the flight stem was rotated the other way.
Since there's no instruction of how exactly to glue the flight stand to the oval base, is this MFA? TFG? Or just a savvy tyranid player taking every (much needed) advantage he can grab?
tetrisphreak wrote: Here's something I did last night that I think will help our FMC's out a bit. Please call me out if you feel this is MFA.
Most players will mount the cross pieces of their flight stands, so that the nose of the plane/flyer is parallel with the longer axis of the oval base. If you measure the base in inches, it's something like 4.5"x5.5". I've taken my flight stems for my FMC's (harpy, crone) and rotated it 90 degrees, so that the nose of the flyer is facing the shorter part of the oval. It's not much, but with a 24" only move, the extra inch to inch and a half of free space will help pull off some moves and vector strikes that would be impossible or very narrow if the flight stem was rotated the other way.
Since there's no instruction of how exactly to glue the flight stand to the oval base, is this MFA? TFG? Or just a savvy tyranid player taking every (much needed) advantage he can grab?
Like mine?
There is no guidance on it, and if GW sees fit to put my "not always flying especially turn 1 when opponent gets to shoot first" Flying MC on a stupid high flier base then I cant see how people can cry foul.
rigeld2 wrote: I'm not sure about Dakka Flyrants anymore... Maybe I'm just too aggressive.
Every game this weekend at a tournament they were the first things to die - and they were about the same range as the onslaughted triple Dakkafex broods. They're just really easy to kill, even with requiring snap shots.
I dunno...
Yep you are too aggressive, timing is everything, you want to be hitting their lines with more than your Flyrants in the same turn. Make target Priority a problem.
So basically aim for a turn 2 in your face with Flyrants, Crones, Mawlocs, Outflanking...
I think especially with this codex, your unit mix is key. For instance, Flyrants seem to work better in armies with multiple FMCs. In ground-based builds (like those featuring Dakkafexes), Primes start to make more sense. Etc. Rather than anything being "core" the way Tervigons were in the last book, it's as though the core and even the satellite units greatly depend on the style of army you want to run.
This doesn't seem like an especially bold revelation, but I think it might be useful to approach Tyranid listbuilding as "no core without context." This is why you see such varying opinions here on units like Tyrants, Exocrines, etc. My first playtest army used an Exocrine and I almost immediately realized I wasn't going to get much out of it because of the army around it.
rigeld2 wrote: I'm not sure about Dakka Flyrants anymore... Maybe I'm just too aggressive.
Every game this weekend at a tournament they were the first things to die - and they were about the same range as the onslaughted triple Dakkafex broods. They're just really easy to kill, even with requiring snap shots.
I dunno...
Yep you are too aggressive, timing is everything, you want to be hitting their lines with more than your Flyrants in the same turn. Make target Priority a problem.
So basically aim for a turn 2 in your face with Flyrants, Crones, Mawlocs, Outflanking...
I think especially with this codex, your unit mix is key. For instance, Flyrants seem to work better in armies with multiple FMCs. In ground-based builds (like those featuring Dakkafexes), Primes start to make more sense. Etc. Rather than anything being "core" the way Tervigons were in the last book, it's as though the core and even the satellite units greatly depend on the style of army you want to run.
This doesn't seem like an especially bold revelation, but I think it might be useful to approach Tyranid listbuilding as "no core without context." This is why you see such varying opinions here on units like Tyrants, Exocrines, etc. My first playtest army used an Exocrine and I almost immediately realized I wasn't going to get much out of it because of the army around it.
I have seen much the same with my lists. I don't get much mileage out of the dual Flyrant on my horde list becuase it is just to fast for the rest of my list. The Exocrine on the other hand is a perfect for for what is a really a moving 18-24" killzone across the entire front of the deplyment zone.
I might try dropping Flyrants for Primes and picking up 2-3 Zoeys.
For reference, the rest of the list I used was Tervigon, gants, 6 Warriors (Spitters, Strangler), 4 Dakka fexes (I said triple above, meant double) and a TFex. I'm going to drop the TFex for an Exocrine and once I figure out how many points I have left figure out the rest from there.
I think that many players are ignoring the reaklity that the game has become RPS (rock-paper-scissors). At the LVO players were gunning for tau and Nids did beat them often. No one thought there would be a need to tailor for beast packs \or seer councils so look at the top eight. Nids can win but the question is what do you give up to win certain match ups and how will that effect others? I'm pretty sure I \can build a list to beat Tau. But then I might open myself up to a few bad results from DelEldar, White Scars, etc. I played a list on the weekend that handily beat a SM/Tau list (buffmander and rioptide inserted). I'm not sure it would beat a wave serpent list despite having some tools to thwart Eldar. So pick and choose your poison. For reference:
Reaper Tyrant
Deathleaper
2x2 Lictors
terv
30 Gants
5 Stealers
2x Crone
2x Mawloc
Exocrine
No bastion or comms .. no fancy tricks. Ran over my opponent. Flyrant troe the Tide a new one, btw. Mawlocs destroyed his dev cent squad with help from lictors. I lost a few MCs but meh. Even my Crones did damage - to the bike squad although the CM was a b$$%. I'm not fooled. A good Eldar list w/ DE will give me problems. A better bike list would have hurt. He had only one squad. Now his list might have hurt Eldar. But against mine it was just a bad match up.
I think especially with this codex, your unit mix is key. For instance, Flyrants seem to work better in armies with multiple FMCs. In ground-based builds (like those featuring Dakkafexes), Primes start to make more sense. Etc. Rather than anything being "core" the way Tervigons were in the last book, it's as though the core and even the satellite units greatly depend on the style of army you want to run.
This doesn't seem like an especially bold revelation, but I think it might be useful to approach Tyranid listbuilding as "no core without context." This is why you see such varying opinions here on units like Tyrants, Exocrines, etc. My first playtest army used an Exocrine and I almost immediately realized I wasn't going to get much out of it because of the army around it.
This. This is what has caused me tonight to go, convert another pair of Twin-Devourers to replace the Scything Talons on my Venom-Cannon foot Tyrant. The flyrant for the time being seems to be my staple anti-air unit but it really needs to be kept back and sent in with its speed when the time is right - preferably when everything else arrives or is about to hit their lines.
But currently I am considering the following idea...
The idea is to have a constant advancing, dakkafull foot swarm just pouring out streams of fire for a heavy impact in Turn 2 or 3 depending on what the threats
The Trygon, Gargoyles, Hormagaunts and outflanking Stealers will be the immediate threats....the firebase is a secondary threat.
tetrisphreak wrote: Here's something I did last night that I think will help our FMC's out a bit. Please call me out if you feel this is MFA.
Most players will mount the cross pieces of their flight stands, so that the nose of the plane/flyer is parallel with the longer axis of the oval base. If you measure the base in inches, it's something like 4.5"x5.5". I've taken my flight stems for my FMC's (harpy, crone) and rotated it 90 degrees, so that the nose of the flyer is facing the shorter part of the oval. It's not much, but with a 24" only move, the extra inch to inch and a half of free space will help pull off some moves and vector strikes that would be impossible or very narrow if the flight stem was rotated the other way.
Since there's no instruction of how exactly to glue the flight stand to the oval base, is this MFA? TFG? Or just a savvy tyranid player taking every (much needed) advantage he can grab?
Pg 49 covers that. Just keep the same direction as forward.
The interesting part is that everyone's troop selections are different. Isn't this where you are winning or losing your game? Or are they there to survive and hopefully still be around to claim an objective.
As people have posted their lists it's a very changing element where say the flyrant is mostly there.
Gatekeeper wrote: The interesting part is that everyone's troop selections are different. Isn't this where you are winning or losing your game? Or are they there to survive and hopefully still be around to claim an objective.
As people have posted their lists it's a very changing element where say the flyrant is mostly there.
I think it is more because the Troops section is out weakest, and people just really aren't sure what to do with it.
gorgon wrote: I think especially with this codex, your unit mix is key. For instance, Flyrants seem to work better in armies with multiple FMCs. In ground-based builds (like those featuring Dakkafexes), Primes start to make more sense. Etc. Rather than anything being "core" the way Tervigons were in the last book, it's as though the core and even the satellite units greatly depend on the style of army you want to run.
This doesn't seem like an especially bold revelation, but I think it might be useful to approach Tyranid listbuilding as "no core without context." This is why you see such varying opinions here on units like Tyrants, Exocrines, etc. My first playtest army used an Exocrine and I almost immediately realized I wasn't going to get much out of it because of the army around it.
Kind of interesting to think that there may be multiple viable builds in the codex? There was allot of talk about the codex only having a mono build when it came out... I agree with you, it seems they were a little unfounded and that there is a couple of really good and equally competitive builds?
Gatekeeper wrote: The interesting part is that everyone's troop selections are different. Isn't this where you are winning or losing your game? Or are they there to survive and hopefully still be around to claim an objective.
As people have posted their lists it's a very changing element where say the flyrant is mostly there.
I think it is more because the Troops section is out weakest, and people just really aren't sure what to do with it.
Troops these day's are for late scoring though. I make sure I have some but I don't expect them to do anything (unless outflanking devilgaunts) other than be on an objective at the end of the game. Id argue the majority of the top list's have the same idea?
The problem is our troops are weak when it comes to late scoring. Everything is either overpriced, runs away, kills each other then runs away, can't score, or a Tervigon.
gorgon wrote: I think especially with this codex, your unit mix is key. For instance, Flyrants seem to work better in armies with multiple FMCs. In ground-based builds (like those featuring Dakkafexes), Primes start to make more sense. Etc. Rather than anything being "core" the way Tervigons were in the last book, it's as though the core and even the satellite units greatly depend on the style of army you want to run.
This doesn't seem like an especially bold revelation, but I think it might be useful to approach Tyranid listbuilding as "no core without context." This is why you see such varying opinions here on units like Tyrants, Exocrines, etc. My first playtest army used an Exocrine and I almost immediately realized I wasn't going to get much out of it because of the army around it.
Kind of interesting to think that there may be multiple viable builds in the codex? There was allot of talk about the codex only having a mono build when it came out... I agree with you, it seems they were a little unfounded and that there is a couple of really good and equally competitive builds?
Shooty walking type list:
Shooty prime's in gaunt squads
Dakka fexes
Venomthropes
Bastion
Exocrines
T-Fex's
Not really, I think right now everyone is looking for the one or 2 builds that will be across the board effective or have the least hard counters. I would not say we have found any good competitive builds yet. Just that the T2 Tsunami and the dakkawall are looking to be the most viable.
barnowl wrote: Not really, I think right now everyone is looking for the one or 2 builds that will be across the board effective or have the least hard counters. I would not say we have found any good competitive builds yet. Just that the T2 Tsunami and the dakkawall are looking to be the most viable.
In your view would a competitive list at a minimum be one that is able to match it with the current GT winning lists?
I am still trying to find a list of as few models as possible that can still pack a punch. I sort of like the idea of having only big guys, as many as possible, so I try to balance it like this:
barnowl wrote: Not really, I think right now everyone is looking for the one or 2 builds that will be across the board effective or have the least hard counters. I would not say we have found any good competitive builds yet. Just that the T2 Tsunami and the dakkawall are looking to be the most viable.
In your view would a competitive list at a minimum be one that is able to match it with the current GT winning lists?
I would say it is a list that can reliably old its own it against the majority of net list out there. (DE are ignored for this, I don't think we can really handle that much poison shooting)
Competitively, Tyranids suffer from bad match-ups against 4 common armies: Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar & Space Marines. Remove those and we're actually pretty strong, thanks to our favourable match-ups against Necrons and Daemons.
And then you have a mixture of Sniper Kroot and FireWarriors...combined with Pathfinders.
Oh, and Skyrays kind of suck to face too....for how ridiculously cheap they are.
Tau weaknesses : CC and having very few units...
also...leadership (the only time I ever feel comfortable with tau is when i get a few instances of paroxysm or the horror...but staying in 24" to maledict is a problem for most of our units...thus my personal use for the swarmlord.
Smart missile systems absolutely murder our scoring and quick units. Riptides ripple firing SMS and broadsides/devilfish/sky rays make it impossible to hide scoring units.
Haven't had a problem with them to date...as usual, just swarm them with gants.
Their limited target selection and mobility makes them mediocre.
My gants don't live long enough to effectively tie them down - thunderfires and bolters take care of that. Meanwhile the Cents are deleting a MC a turn.
I can win those games, but it's not by tying them up with gants - I throw flyrants at them. They can only kill one, the other gets in and ties them up/kills them.
My only "Oh crap how am I going to win this game" matchups are Straight Tau (No Eldar) and DEldar.
I only really have a problem with DEldar. So far every other matchup I've played has been decent.
Why no love for Trygons? Is it just that people would rather buy the cheaper Mawloc and spend the 100 points elsewhere?
I'm going to play in an oversized Tyranids vs. Everyone Else game on Saturday. I plan on bringing mostly big bugs so that I'm able to have fun. Are there any load outs that people have been wanting to try? I'm tempted to see how over upgraded MCs do. I imagine they die to shooting before I can make use of anything, but what the hell. .. May as well see for myself.
Wakshaani wrote: So, break it down. What are the units in the Tau that give Tyranid problems and why? What are their weaknesses in return?
Narrow down "the enemy" and come up with a biological antidote; it's the Hive Fleet Way.
Broadsides Kill everything 'nid, and are very hard to Kill. The counter to them is Mawlocs, but if the TAU player knows what he is doing, they will line up single file along the board edge, so you can hit 2 at most. Worse they will be on the 2nd story of terrain, and thus unreachable.
Markerlight drones Ignore cover, and buff BS and force grounding checks.
Buffmander grants insane bonuses like hit and run, and monster hunter, and ignore cover, and win the game for taking, and several other bonuses.
Crisis Suites (especially deep striking), are a major threat. They have huge mobility, good BS, and good armor, and 2 wounds. Flamer suites have 2 flamers, and a singe flamer suite can often kill 10 - 18 gaunts on the turn they come in.
Riptides are threats to Warriors and other T4 'nids, because they can shoot a S9 large blast. They are also threats to Flyrants because they can have skyfire. Also, despite Flyrants looking like they are so much better than Riptides in Assault, a riptide can easily tarpit one, or even kill it in CC. Riptides have killed more flyrants in CC than the other way around in my 8 - 9 games against them.
Skyrays are threats to FMC's.
The Farsight Commander has a Deny the Witch upgrage that lets them roll 4 dice.
The only thing in the codex that doesn't regularly give me trouble are Kroot.
The problem isn't, there is one unit that can beat us. We could tailor to that. The problem is, every single Tau unit that anyone is going to take is a unit that can beat us, and they all have good saves, and huge range. Our strategy to beat Tau is to insist on LOS blocking terrain, and lots of it. We have to tailor both our Army and the Board to stand a chance.
Lansirill wrote: Two things:Why no love for Trygons? Is it just that people would rather buy the cheaper Mawloc and spend the 100 points elsewhere?
There is much love for a single Trygon Prime, but I can't find a reason to take a stock Trygon over a Mawloc or a Prime...unless you just really love snakes.
Lansirill wrote: I'm going to play in an oversized Tyranids vs. Everyone Else game on Saturday. I plan on bringing mostly big bugs so that I'm able to have fun. Are there any load outs that people have been wanting to try? I'm tempted to see how over upgraded MCs do. I imagine they die to shooting before I can make use of anything, but what the hell. .. May as well see for myself.
Why no love for Trygons? Is it just that people would rather buy the cheaper Mawloc and spend the 100 points elsewhere?
I'm going to play in an oversized Tyranids vs. Everyone Else game on Saturday. I plan on bringing mostly big bugs so that I'm able to have fun. Are there any load outs that people have been wanting to try? I'm tempted to see how over upgraded MCs do. I imagine they die to shooting before I can make use of anything, but what the hell. .. May as well see for myself.
I'll be there too but not to partake, I cant play all day. (Assuming you're going to Bowie bunker)
Well, the Tau things need to be digested a few at a time. The one sad thing is that the commonality of Smart Missile Systems means that Venomthropes just aren't very good against them. Ignores cover, needs no LOS, and a 30" range means that they'll probably wipe your Venoms in turn one... at least a smart player will. The only real defense, here, is to deploy only 10" deep (leaving you 26" from the enemy), stick them 5" deep behind the line, hope they don't notice that they have to advance to catch them, and rope a dope.
Failing that, adding a Tyrant Guard to the squad to tank with his 3+ save and 3 wounds against the AP 5 attacks. He can only take so many, but, you might get a round of life out of him.
Battlesuits all have the same weakness in melee, with Broadsides being the most vulnerable (good luck getting there!) but Riptides being a bigger issue at first. Gargoyles are the best answer for Riptides that I say, with a cloud of a dozen getting stuck into melee, Blinding it each round, and just tarpitting it for the rest of the game.
Markerlights aren't a big deal if you have no flyrants, simply because the Venopms will go down from other fire. AFter that, you screen the big bugs with the little bugs and swarm: A 5+ ain't great compared to the 3+ you SHOULD have, but it can get your big guys close enough to drop some dakka in there. Hormagaunts, as bad as they are, can do just terrible things to both Fire Warriors and Kroot, and serve as an ablative cover shield for the main body.
The things that they don't seem to have are really tough targets... no AV 14 main battle tanks, for instance. Exocrines can do a number on them, whie Dakkafexes should knock down transports, leaving the juicy warriors as targets.
I think it's winnable, but the army composition is going to have to be quite a bit different than what's going on currently. Hrm. Hrm hrm.
Wakshaani wrote: Hormagaunts, as bad as they are, can do just terrible things to both Fire Warriors and Kroot, and serve as an ablative cover shield for the main body.
Hormagaunts arent bad, they just dont fit in every list, thats all. In a CC based list they are really effective, cause you can swarm the enemy to death in turn 2!
Wakshaani wrote: Well, the Tau things need to be digested a few at a time. The one sad thing is that the commonality of Smart Missile Systems means that Venomthropes just aren't very good against them. Ignores cover, needs no LOS, and a 30" range means that they'll probably wipe your Venoms in turn one... at least a smart player will. The only real defense, here, is to deploy only 10" deep (leaving you 26" from the enemy), stick them 5" deep behind the line, hope they don't notice that they have to advance to catch them, and rope a dope.
Or you could just put him in a Bastion. You want the Bastion for a Comms Relay anyways.
Wakshaani wrote: Failing that, adding a Tyrant Guard to the squad to tank with his 3+ save and 3 wounds against the AP 5 attacks. He can only take so many, but, you might get a round of life out of him..
You Know that Tyrant Guard aren't IC's right? They can't join Venoms. Do you mean a Tyranid Prime?
Wakshaani wrote: Battlesuits all have the same weakness in melee, with Broadsides being the most vulnerable (good luck getting there!)
Not that weak. I got 26 TGaunts into assault on 2 Broadsides. Did a pile of wounds, and they made all of their saves, killed 2 TGaunts, and won Combat. The assault took them out of synapse, so they ran away.
Wakshaani wrote: but Riptides being a bigger issue at first. Gargoyles are the best answer for Riptides that I say, with a cloud of a dozen getting stuck into melee, Blinding it each round, and just tarpitting it for the rest of the game.
I have been itching to try a 70-90 Gargoyle list VS. Tau. Unfortunately, I only have 3 gargoyle models. That being said, because of Tau's Combined overwatch, it is going to be hard to make that 1st charge. All of their guns are TL, and a savy Tau Player is going to keep his units bunched up so that they can all overwatch. I'm not positive that Riptides would be my 1st choice to Tarpit. Broadsides or a large squad of Missle Suites and Markerlights.
Wakshaani wrote: Markerlights aren't a big deal if you have no flyrants, simply because the Venopms will go down from other fire. AFter that, you screen the big bugs with the little bugs and swarm: A 5+ ain't great compared to the 3+ you SHOULD have, but it can get your big guys close enough to drop some dakka in there.
You know they buff BS, right? Tau with Markerlights don't miss, and ignore cover. It is marker lights that lets them take out 3 Cfexes a turn.
Wakshaani wrote: Hormagaunts, as bad as they are, can do just terrible things to both Fire Warriors and Kroot, and serve as an ablative cover shield for the main body.
Agreed, however flamers suits will remove them from the board rather easily.
Wakshaani wrote: The things that they don't seem to have are really tough targets... no AV 14 main battle tanks, for instance. Exocrines can do a number on them, whie Dakkafexes should knock down transports, leaving the juicy warriors as targets. .
An Exocrine is probably killing 1 Broadside a turn (starting turn 2). It is better than most things, but still not great. It is problematic, because Tau can easily kill 1 in turn 1 before it gets into range, and Mawlocs are better anti-tau, and take up the same FOC slot. None-the-Less, I am still interested in trying a 3 Exocrine list.
Wakshaani wrote: I think it's winnable, but the army composition is going to have to be quite a bit different than what's going on currently. Hrm. Hrm hrm.
I used to think this as well. After trying it I'm losing hope.
Mawlocs are the most effective against Tau. So building a Tau list we start with 3 Mawlocs (theoretically, 3 exocrines might work). To use them effectively we need a Bastion with a Comms Relay. The next most effective are all in our fast attack. Harpies Vs. Gargoyles Vs. Crones all have their arguments. If using Gargoyles, you might want to include Shrikes for Synapse, if using other flyers you want Dakkafexes. Then we want Gaunts, and lots of them. Genesteelers have some usefulness, especially if you are using Gargoyles, but Outflanking Devil gaunts are ok, and HGaunts are ok. You want bodies, so avoid upgrades (except for Devourers). For our HQ. If we ran flyers we should run dakka flyrants. If we didn't, we should consider Tyranid primes, because we can bury them in a squad, and slingshot them into combat.
I think list building against Tau isn't that much different than the lists that are generally emerging. Bastion with a Venom inside and a Comms relay. 1-2 Dakka Flyrants 2-3 Crones 2-3 Mawlocs Outflanking Devil Gaunts HGaunts to taste.
I think this list beats non-Ovesastar Tau about 10% of the time, and rely on favorable terrain. I think this list will table Tau 1% of the time, and be tabled by them about 15-30% of the time.
I may be wrong. Running 70 Gargoyles with 3 Exocrines might be the way to go, but until I see someone do it successfully, I'm dubious.
Bleah, Tyranid PRIME, not Tyrant Guard. I knew what I meant but my fingers betrayed me. I should declare nine of them Heretics as a warning to the tenth!
Hey jy2, this is a list I changed from yesterday, whats your opinion on it?
1850
Flyrant w/Reaper and HVC, HC, Electroshock
Flyrant w/LW/BS and HVC, HC, toxin sacs, Electroshock
Tervigon
30 gants (no devs, 30 shots vs 50)
6 Warriors w/rending claws, devourers, barbed strangler and LW/BS (outflank)
Mawloc
Biovore brood x2
Crone
Crone
Crone (Harpy could stay and give Tyrants AG with minor tweaks)
Are the Tyrants top heavy in this list? Yes. But played 'properly' aggressive, they are flexible enough to vector or shoot tanks, shock tanks, or strength 5 template troops, and then assault targets of opportunity. The AG option ensures assaults and allows instant death on a lot of tough marine leaders.
A lot of points to put into 2 HQ's, but augmented with the three other fliers they are pretty damaging.
Spoiler:
If you want to play your flyrants from range (with HVC's), that's fine. They'll probably live just a little bit longer....as in 1 turn longer. However, to beat the top armies, you need volume-of-fire. Quality of shots is not as effective as quantity of shots. That's why personally, I prefer the brainleech devourers. Yeah, you have to put them more in harms way, but if you coordinate your attacks together with the rest of your army, I feel that you can have a more devastating beta-strike on Turn 2. It really boils down to how you would like to play them - either more aggressively or more conservatively.
I don't believe you need 3 crones. 2 is the most that I would use. The reason is that the crone is more of a niche unit rather than a flexible mainstay of the army. FMC-spam tyranids on the whole is a somewhat unbalanced army. While FMC-bugs is strong, you will come up to certain matchups who really don't care all that much for flyer-overload. Thus, I'd go no more than 4 flyers in my list (2 flyrants + 2 crones) and invest the rest of the points into a stronger ground presence. In other words, I'd prefer to take 2 crones + 2 mawlocs over 3 crones/harpy combo + 1 mawloc
JY2, Could you expand on this a bit. What sort of matchups should Bug Flying Circus(BFC) fear. I've been paying attention to my local meta, and the only list I've seen that made me fear was an IG player who claimed he ran 3 hydras, 2 Vendettas and an Aegis with a Quad Gun, but that list is clearly tailored to be anti-flyer, and he didn't seem like a very confident player. The 9 skyfire broadsides + buffmander list is probably going to kill any other 'nid build nearly as effectively as it can kill BFC.
BFC seems like it can handle Mech better than most other Tyranid builds, and most of the lists that can beat it can also beat other 'nid builds just as well. Is there a Tyranid list that is good while not being unbalanced?
Also, have you decided that Mawlocs are the way to go for Heavy Support? I'm still interested in trying a 3 Exocrine list, and a 9 biovore list (carpet bombing), but am finding myself increasingly falling into this camp. Mawlocs + BFC seem like the (only?) way to give Tyranids mobility to compete with modern lists.
I don't take 3 hive crone lists for the same reason I don't run triple-heldrake lists either. These lists are unbalanced. They tend to perform really well against certain armies but poorly against others. Triple-heldrake lists are killer against horde MEQ/GEQ builds but will have problems against massed 2+ armies, or anti-meta armies like daemons or wraithwing necrons. Same with triple-hive crone lists. They will do good against many armies, but they will have particular armies where they won't perform as well:
Wraithwing/AV13 Necrons
Riptide + broadside or skyray Tau
Shooty Daemons (i.e. Tzeentch Flickering Fire FMC-spam)
Shooty Draigowing
Autocannon-spam armies
Mechdar
IG Air Cav
Triple-stormraven armies
Personally, I'd prefer to trade in the 3rd flyer for some more support units (i.e. bastion, to fit a tervigon+30 gants into my troops, perhaps Hive Commander), but that's because I like to run a slightly more balanced Tyranid list utilizing more force-multipliers (psychic heavy + synapse support).
I like Mawlocs, but I also don't believe any list should take more than 2. My final Tyranid list will have 2 hive crones and 2 mawlocs.
Now I'm not saying triple-hive crone/triple-mawloc lists can't work. Oftentimes, they can and they will. They may even work better against some of the more extreme lists that Tyranids usually have problems against (i.e. venom-spam DE, lots of Tau/Eldar builds). The only problem with extreme builds like this is that they become more and more RPS armies. Meet the right army and you can potentially dominate. Meet the wrong one and you are out of the tournament.
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PrinceRaven wrote: The problem is our troops are weak when it comes to late scoring. Everything is either overpriced, runs away, kills each other then runs away, can't score, or a Tervigon.
barnowl wrote: Not really, I think right now everyone is looking for the one or 2 builds that will be across the board effective or have the least hard counters. I would not say we have found any good competitive builds yet. Just that the T2 Tsunami and the dakkawall are looking to be the most viable.
In your view would a competitive list at a minimum be one that is able to match it with the current GT winning lists?
I'm not sure we can match with a current GT winning lists, at least not on equal footings.
We can give them a good fight. We can even beat them on occasions, but make no mistake, we will almost always be underdogs in these types of matchups.
barnowl wrote: Not really, I think right now everyone is looking for the one or 2 builds that will be across the board effective or have the least hard counters. I would not say we have found any good competitive builds yet. Just that the T2 Tsunami and the dakkawall are looking to be the most viable.
In your view would a competitive list at a minimum be one that is able to match it with the current GT winning lists?
I would say it is a list that can reliably old its own it against the majority of net list out there. (DE are ignored for this, I don't think we can really handle that much poison shooting)
Iechine wrote: Hey jy2, this is a list I changed from yesterday, whats your opinion on it?
1850 Flyrant w/Reaper and HVC, HC, Electroshock Flyrant w/LW/BS and HVC, HC, toxin sacs, Electroshock Tervigon 30 gants (no devs, 30 shots vs 50) 6 Warriors w/rending claws, devourers, barbed strangler and LW/BS (outflank) Mawloc Biovore brood x2 Crone Crone Crone (Harpy could stay and give Tyrants AG with minor tweaks)
Are the Tyrants top heavy in this list? Yes. But played 'properly' aggressive, they are flexible enough to vector or shoot tanks, shock tanks, or strength 5 template troops, and then assault targets of opportunity. The AG option ensures assaults and allows instant death on a lot of tough marine leaders.
A lot of points to put into 2 HQ's, but augmented with the three other fliers they are pretty damaging.
[spoiler]If you want to play your flyrants from range (with HVC's), that's fine. They'll probably live just a little bit longer....as in 1 turn longer. However, to beat the top armies, you need volume-of-fire. Quality of shots is not as effective as quantity of shots. That's why personally, I prefer the brainleech devourers. Yeah, you have to put them more in harms way, but if you coordinate your attacks together with the rest of your army, I feel that you can have a more devastating beta-strike on Turn 2. It really boils down to how you would like to play them - either more aggressively or more conservatively. I don't believe you need 3 crones. 2 is the most that I would use. The reason is that the crone is more of a niche unit rather than a flexible mainstay of the army. FMC-spam tyranids on the whole is a somewhat unbalanced army. While FMC-bugs is strong, you will come up to certain matchups who really don't care all that much for flyer-overload. Thus, I'd go no more than 4 flyers in my list (2 flyrants + 2 crones) and invest the rest of the points into a stronger ground presence. In other words, I'd prefer to take 2 crones + 2 mawlocs over 3 crones/harpy combo + 1 mawloc
JY2, Could you expand on this a bit. What sort of matchups should Bug Flying Circus(BFC) fear. I've been paying attention to my local meta, and the only list I've seen that made me fear was an IG player who claimed he ran 3 hydras, 2 Vendettas and an Aegis with a Quad Gun, but that list is clearly tailored to be anti-flyer, and he didn't seem like a very confident player. The 9 skyfire broadsides + buffmander list is probably going to kill any other 'nid build nearly as effectively as it can kill BFC.
BFC seems like it can handle Mech better than most other Tyranid builds, and most of the lists that can beat it can also beat other 'nid builds just as well. Is there a Tyranid list that is good while not being unbalanced?
I don't take 3 hive crone lists for the same reason I don't run triple-heldrake lists either. These lists are unbalanced. They tend to perform really well against certain armies but poorly against others. Triple-heldrake lists are killer against horde MEQ/GEQ builds but will have problems against massed 2+ armies, or anti-meta armies like daemons or wraithwing necrons. Same with triple-hive crone lists. They will do good against many armies, but they will have particular armies where they won't perform as well:
Wraithwing/AV13 Necrons Riptide + broadside or skyray Tau Shooty Daemons (i.e. Tzeentch Flickering Fire FMC-spam) Shooty Draigowing Autocannon-spam armies Mechdar IG Air Cav Triple-stormraven armies
Personally, I'd prefer to trade in the 3rd flyer for some more support units (i.e. bastion, to fit a tervigon+30 gants into my troops, perhaps Hive Commander), but that's because I like to run a slightly more balanced Tyranid list utilizing more force-multipliers (psychic heavy + synapse support).
I don't mean to be overly argumentative, and I ceded that you are a better more experienced player than me, but could you explain how dropping 1 Crone for 155 points of Gaunts or Zthropes or 1/2 of a Tervigon+terv tax balances the list. I acknowledge that 3 Crones is a RPS build, but it seems that 2 Crones is also a RPS build. In your Chaos example, you can take allies to give you an efficient way to spend the points you've saved. We don't have that in 'nids.
At 1850 (My most common size), you can run a list like this: Flyrant (wings, 2 TL Devourers) Flyrant (wings, 2 TL Devourers)
ZThrope - Support / Synapse.
Tervigon - Support 30 TGaunts - Terv Tax 11 TGaunts - Backfield scoring
Crone Crone Crone
Mawloc Mawloc Mawloc
Bastion + Comms - Support, force multiplier.
Sure, you could drop a Crone and Mawloc and add an outflanking unit of Devil Gaunts, but is that army actually more balanced? Which of those scary lists will it perform better against?
jy2 wrote: I like Mawlocs, but I also don't believe any list should take more than 2. My final Tyranid list will have 2 hive crones and 2 mawlocs.
Do you have plans to fill your other heavy support slot, or are you leaving it empty? At first glance the Heavy slot is an embarrassment of riches, but upon playtesting, it is the Mawlocs that are always coming up big for me, because the other options lack mobility. Give me Deepstriking / Scouting / Outflanking Cfexes or TFexes, and we are talking, but as is, Mawloc seems like the way to go.
tag8833 wrote: I don't mean to be overly argumentative, and I ceded that you are a better more experienced player than me, but could you explain how dropping 1 Crone for 155 points of Gaunts or Zthropes or 1/2 of a Tervigon+terv tax balances the list. I acknowledge that 3 Crones is a RPS build, but it seems that 2 Crones is also a RPS build. In your Chaos example, you can take allies to give you an efficient way to spend the points you've saved. We don't have that in 'nids.
At 1850 (My most common size), you can run a list like this:
Flyrant (wings, 2 TL Devourers)
Flyrant (wings, 2 TL Devourers)
ZThrope - Support / Synapse.
Tervigon - Support
30 TGaunts - Terv Tax
11 TGaunts - Backfield scoring
Crone
Crone
Crone
Mawloc
Mawloc
Mawloc
Bastion + Comms - Support, force multiplier.
Sure, you could drop a Crone and Mawloc and add an outflanking unit of Devil Gaunts, but is that army actually more balanced? Which of those scary lists will it perform better against?
jy2 wrote: I like Mawlocs, but I also don't believe any list should take more than 2. My final Tyranid list will have 2 hive crones and 2 mawlocs.
Do you have plans to fill your other heavy support slot, or are you leaving it empty? At first glance the Heavy slot is an embarrassment of riches, but upon playtesting, it is the Mawlocs that are always coming up big for me, because the other options lack mobility. Give me Deepstriking / Scouting / Outflanking Cfexes or TFexes, and we are talking, but as is, Mawloc seems like the way to go.
Personally, I prefer to drop the 3rd crone to fit in a venomthrope + change.
If I drop both the mawloc + crone, I can perhaps fit in a unit of 2 dakkafexes. Though dakkafexes tend to be much slower, they also tend to perform more consistently for me than the hive crones or mawlocs. They also give me a stronger ground presence and if you get Onslaught, their lack of speed is not as noticeable. Mainly, they give me the volume-of-fire that both the flyers and the mawlocs lack and that is what you need against many of the top armies.
Or dropping the mawloc + crone can give me a venomthrope, 3 biovores and some gargoyles. Biovores are solid against the top-tier armies (Tau/Eldar) and is a force-multiplier unit as well, helping to screw with enemy deployment as well as to restrict enemy movement as well.
Each build is different. I am moving away somewhat from a pure Threat Overload Tyranid build to more of an Overload list with force-multiplier support. I'm not saying one list is better than the other - only time will tell which will be more successful. Partially from my own experiences and partially because of my growing preference to play more balanced lists, but I have never seen a triple-heldrake army, a pure Necron Airforce or many of the other extreme lists succeed in tournament play (at least not on the GT-level where they have to play 5-8 games). The only exception is FMC-spam daemons, which has won a GT before. Currently, the best lists are all ones that rely either on force-multiplication - Seer Councils, Beaststar, Ovesa-star Tau, FMC-daemons - or are really balanced - White Scars, wraithwing necrons. Of these lists, necrons are probably one of the more brute-force armies, but they are an army that is also extremely balanced as well.
Personally, I think lists that want crones get stronger as they add crones and lose flyrants....you're really making your force overly redundant...why not take your flyrants out and add more force multipliers?
I think that shooting is where he loses his effectiveness...when you have crones in a list...when I take two crones I take one flyrant and I make him an MC hunter, as wraithknights, riptides and some daemons are your only challenges...it doesn't take much to outmatch them.
The flyrant is only seen as so effective shooting wise because its commonly seen as necessary...without armor to pop...I don't find 12 s6 shots to be very much worth the points.
Here's the 1750pt nod list I'm working on. I'm undefeated with it after 5 games (one of them was eldar) I find if I play tactically well I can steamroll people if not I can still manage to claw victory away.
ductvader wrote: I think that shooting is where he loses his effectiveness...when you have crones in a list...when I take two crones I take one flyrant and I make him an MC hunter, as wraithknights, riptides and some daemons are your only challenges...it doesn't take much to outmatch them.
The flyrant is only seen as so effective shooting wise because its commonly seen as necessary...without armor to pop...I don't find 12 s6 shots to be very much worth the points.
The flyrant does more than to just shoot, but I can't blame you if you aren't having much success with them. They're pretty much a finesse unit nowadays and pretty quick to down by an opponent who has his target priorities straight. To me, they are absolutely vital for a Tyranid army to compete against the top armies, but it's ok for people to run other HQ's depending on the types of Tyranid lists they want to run.
BTW, that's 24 TL-S6 shots with dual flyrants. It may not seem much, but it adds up.
bobmgee wrote: Here's the 1750pt nod list I'm working on. I'm undefeated with it after 5 games (one of them was eldar) I find if I play tactically well I can steamroll people if not I can still manage to claw victory away.
HQ Dakka flyrant
Dakka flyrant
ELITES
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope
TROOPS
10 gants
30 gants
Tervigon
Cluster spines, regeneration
FAST ATTACK
Hive crone
Hive crone
HEAVY SUPPORT
Mawloc
Mawloc
3 biovores
Fortification
Bastion w/comms relay
This is pretty much the list that I am building towards (except I'd swap out regen for Hive Commander). It's not a pure MTO Tyranid list, but IMO it is a better TAC Tyranid army than a triple-crones/triple-mawlocs build.
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DarkStarSabre wrote: Well now. Going to get my first proper 2500 point game some point within the next few weeks against a friend's Dark Angels.
I shall play with the double force orgs and figure out a way to balance the swarm as I see fit. It will include my new purchases too.
When I get to double-FOC's, I'd love to run quad-flyrants.
The flyrant does more than to just shoot, but I can't blame you if you aren't having much success with them. They're pretty much a finesse unit nowadays and pretty quick to down by an opponent who has his target priorities straight.
I have plenty of success with flyrants...I just find that many other choices offer even greater results...this is taking into account that you're running two crones.
Since the store decided to shoot me down - allowing Escalation and Stronghold Assault but not allowing Dataslates or Formations (thus scuppering my dream of the Typhus-Cypher army) I figure I may as well give the bugs some love.
Probably going to get murdered by Heldrake-Riptide-Wraithknight spam and also finding that 1500 points is tiny.
bobmgee wrote: Here's the 1750pt nod list I'm working on. I'm undefeated with it after 5 games (one of them was eldar) I find if I play tactically well I can steamroll people if not I can still manage to claw victory away.
HQ Dakka flyrant
Dakka flyrant
ELITES
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope
TROOPS
10 gants
30 gants
Tervigon
Cluster spines, regeneration
FAST ATTACK
Hive crone
Hive crone
HEAVY SUPPORT
Mawloc
Mawloc
3 biovores
Fortification
Bastion w/comms relay
This is pretty much the list that I am building towards (except I'd swap out regen for Hive Commander). It's not a pure MTO Tyranid list, but IMO it is a better TAC Tyranid army than a triple-crones/triple-mawlocs build.
I like this list, but wonder what you plan to outflank with Hive commander? The Gaunts? The Naked Tervigon?
Since the store decided to shoot me down - allowing Escalation and Stronghold Assault but not allowing Dataslates or Formations (thus scuppering my dream of the Typhus-Cypher army) I figure I may as well give the bugs some love.
Probably going to get murdered by Heldrake-Riptide-Wraithknight spam and also finding that 1500 points is tiny.
I'm excited to try this list out over the weekend, it's my alternative to the 1850 I ran in the tournament last week and this one sounds like a lot of fun.
The two outflanking warrior broods are objective grabbers and headhunters, the other brood holds my objective or moves up.
I'm tempted to trade a lot of the 22 gant unit for a Lictor but am frightened of easily giving up 1st blood. Either way, the AG Tyrants sound even better than what I've been running and it will be nice to know Im getting into that charge when I need it, as well as having more attacks for vehicle killing with the Reaper Tyrant reaching strength 8.
Iechine wrote: I'm excited to try this list out over the weekend, it's my alternative to the 1850 I ran in the tournament last week and this one sounds like a lot of fun.
The two outflanking warrior broods are objective grabbers and headhunters, the other brood holds my objective or moves up.
I'm tempted to trade a lot of the 22 gant unit for a Lictor but am frightened of easily giving up 1st blood. Either way, the AG Tyrants sound even better than what I've been running and it will be nice to know Im getting into that charge when I need it, as well as having more attacks for vehicle killing with the Reaper Tyrant reaching strength 8.
If I may?
I would recommend switching the HVCs from the flyrants to the Harpies, you'd save 30 points, gain twin-linked and get an extra attack out of both flyrants. I'd also consider losing deathspitters on the outflankers and saving the 20 points, which would free you up for your lictor... I've never found 6x bs3 s5 ap5 shots to do much at all. Just my 2 cents.
jy2 wrote: *snip*
Not too bad with the venom-in-a-box strategy.
I'm finding AP2/3 shooting armies aren't as bad nowadays as they used to be thanks to the venomthrope.
However, what kills us are massed S6-7 shooting the likes of what Eldar, Tau and Necrons can put out.
Answer: The Tyrannofex! The BastionThrope build is working for me so far, and in all the theory hammer I've run is very good defensively. A Tyrannofex however is insanely hard to kill through non-poisoned weight of fire, and auto-spam/Tesla-spam/Flickering Fire/HYMP are all going to struggle, while the TFex plows on. Give it a 3+ cover and it will take an insane amount of concentrated firepower to take out (or just Tau shenanigans. Kill the Markerlights!)
I'll be there too but not to partake, I cant play all day. (Assuming you're going to Bowie bunker)
Cool. I'll have to make a point to find the table full of orange Tyranids and say hi.
@Jy2: Have you tried out Trygon Primes much, or have you been sticking pretty exclusively to Mawlocs? I have two Trygons and one Mawloc and I'm wondering how much I'm hindering myself (if at all) by running them as Prime, Prime, Mawloc when I could save 90 points by going Prime, Mawloc, Mawloc.
I'd just rebuild the darn thing as a Mawloc except I bought 'em used so I don't have the extra bits.
PrinceRaven wrote: The problem is our troops are weak when it comes to late scoring. Everything is either overpriced, runs away, kills each other then runs away, can't score, or a Tervigon.
Hey! What's wrong with being a tervigon?
Being expensive and not really contributing much beyond Synapse and scoring? I like taking one, I just find it hard to justify taking more than that as I'd be cutting away points from other vital areas of my list.
I'll be there too but not to partake, I cant play all day. (Assuming you're going to Bowie bunker)
Cool. I'll have to make a point to find the table full of orange Tyranids and say hi.
@Jy2: Have you tried out Trygon Primes much, or have you been sticking pretty exclusively to Mawlocs? I have two Trygons and one Mawloc and I'm wondering how much I'm hindering myself (if at all) by running them as Prime, Prime, Mawloc when I could save 90 points by going Prime, Mawloc, Mawloc.
I'd just rebuild the darn thing as a Mawloc except I bought 'em used so I don't have the extra bits.
I don't think you'll have any on call you out on it. Just say it's mouth is closed.
I'll be there too but not to partake, I cant play all day. (Assuming you're going to Bowie bunker)
Cool. I'll have to make a point to find the table full of orange Tyranids and say hi.
@Jy2: Have you tried out Trygon Primes much, or have you been sticking pretty exclusively to Mawlocs? I have two Trygons and one Mawloc and I'm wondering how much I'm hindering myself (if at all) by running them as Prime, Prime, Mawloc when I could save 90 points by going Prime, Mawloc, Mawloc.
I'd just rebuild the darn thing as a Mawloc except I bought 'em used so I don't have the extra bits.
I don't think you'll have any on call you out on it. Just say it's mouth is closed.
At the very worst..
...and make your Trygons be Mawlocs and your Mawlocs be Trygons.
Mrf. Tyrant Guard continue to bug me. They should either be cheaper (Say, 40 pts each) or have 3 wounds. That they're up-armored Warriors but easier to splat (Well, easier-ish, since +2 T and 3+ vs 4+ save, but -1W) bothers me.
Also, I *almost* want to take a unit of them that doesn't run around with a Tyrant, just letting themp stomp around on their own, see what happens.
Since the store decided to shoot me down - allowing Escalation and Stronghold Assault but not allowing Dataslates or Formations (thus scuppering my dream of the Typhus-Cypher army) I figure I may as well give the bugs some love.
Probably going to get murdered by Heldrake-Riptide-Wraithknight spam and also finding that 1500 points is tiny.
...Now, in fairness the Dakkafexes are something I am falling in love with more and more. The sheer amount of fire they put out is painful.
The foot Tyrant is something I fancied trying - just to add more Devourer fire and a HVC for some long range, early anti-tank shots.
Tervigon and Termagaunts are self explanatory.
Single Venoms and Zoey are also self explanatory.
I realise now this looks a bit like 'nidzilla. That makes me feel fuzzy.
I like where you are going with this, but Walkrants always feel naked without a Tyrant Guard. I would drop the Zoey for one.
Mmm. I'm a bit hit and miss with that. I suppose I could drop the Zoey for the Tyrant guard but then I'd feel a bit naked for Psykers and Synapse...wait...why would I? Tervigon and 2 Tyrants, that's 14 T6 wounds and 5 Mastery levels right there - I likely will take the Primaris for the Tervigon (to make a bigger Synapse bubble) but I suppose I will be really hoping for Onslaught and Catalyst for the others.
Scary and fun thought about that 1500 point list...
The Tyrants and Carnifexes put out 54 twin linked S6 shots - I was worried about flyers until I realised that 18 inches is a death sentence for anything with AV 12 or less that comes in range.
For the record - the Termagants will be a 50/50 mix of Spinefists and Fleshborers - depending on what I face will determine what I will want to put forward as fodder first...spinefists being better against GEQ and MCs and Fleshborers being better against light vehicles and Marine equivalents.
For the record - the Termagants will be a 50/50 mix of Spinefists and Fleshborers - depending on what I face will determine what I will want to put forward as fodder first...spinefists being better against GEQ and MCs and Fleshborers being better against light vehicles and Marine equivalents.
Spinefists and Fleshborers are the same against T4, Fleshborers are only superior against T5, T7 and AV10
For the record - the Termagants will be a 50/50 mix of Spinefists and Fleshborers - depending on what I face will determine what I will want to put forward as fodder first...spinefists being better against GEQ and MCs and Fleshborers being better against light vehicles and Marine equivalents.
Spinefists and Fleshborers are the same against T4, Fleshborers are only superior against T5, T7 and AV10
So, Marine equivalents - after seeing the LVO Marine lists I can't pretend Marines exist that are not mounted on bikes and thus T5
While in danger of sounding pessimistic, I'm questioning that there is any real strength to be found. What are the core strengths of the Tyranids in the 6th edition codex? Is there anything that we do better than any other army? One might think that melee is where nids strengths come in but to be honest Chaos can do that more easily(no synapse to worry about) and they have better psykers and more good options complete with allies. What is our niche? What beneficial aspect do we have that no one else does? Fearless? With ATSKNF, Daemons, mob rule, etc this is not so special. Melee? Many armies have great melee units, you just don't see them often because melee is sub-par in 6th and they have other options. Mobility? ...not by a long shot. Hords? Nope. Orks, IG and Chaos can all beat us in that department as well.
What is it we do better than others? Is there anything or are we just trying to make the best of things without any real strength to rely on?
Just trying to be realistic. What core advantages do you feel the Tyranids have at this point?
We're rocking more USRs than anyone else.
MCs up the wazoo
The ability to produce a horde if we choose
One of the best psychic tables out there.
Combat monsters
Synergistic beasts like zoeys, venoms and lictors
Speed...so comparable to slaanesh
Tons and tons of shooting...tons of it.
The ability to mix various units.
When it comes down to it...Tyranids play like a mix of daemons, grey knights, and Eldar.
Uggg... The one I saw cut off the bottom. So no WoN warriors and only a 50% chance for a respawn. Still not bad as the old formation cost 200pts or you had to add +3pts to each termi (and they could only cost 8pts each).
Might toss a monkey wrench into Mathhammer on gaunt/gant costs.
Very good. A half chance to come back for free is still amazing. Makes it worth upgrading the broods with bio morphs too - who wants to shoot a unit that will just pop right back?
It stands to point out that since formations are separate detachments, no troop tervigons with this formation.
Speaking of, there is a photo of a tervigon in the free sample, hinting we are getting a tervigon formation of some kind as well.
Looks like this data slate will focus on masses of bodies, with the heavy hitters coming in the third and final sheet. I'm very happy with these so far.
ductvader wrote: Definitely happy as well, also noteworthy that you can't hive commander these units.
Why not? They are still troops? They don't get to come back on with Outflank, but they can get it the first time out.
Hive commander states from the same detachment...is a formation from the same detachment?
Not being snarky...real question.
Yeah formations count as part of the army but a separate detachment from the primary. So to field the endless swarm you'll still need 2 troops choices in the primary FOC for your list.
ductvader wrote: Definitely happy as well, also noteworthy that you can't hive commander these units.
Why not? They are still troops? They don't get to come back on with Outflank, but they can get it the first time out.
Hive commander states from the same detachment...is a formation from the same detachment?
Not being snarky...real question.
Yeah formations count as part of the army but a separate detachment from the primary. So to field the endless swarm you'll still need 2 troops choices in the primary FOC for your list.
We're rocking more USRs than anyone else.
MCs up the wazoo
The ability to produce a horde if we choose
One of the best psychic tables out there.
Combat monsters
Synergistic beasts like zoeys, venoms and lictors
Speed...so comparable to slaanesh
Tons and tons of shooting...tons of it.
The ability to mix various units.
When it comes down to it...Tyranids play like a mix of daemons, grey knights, and Eldar.
Well I could go through the list but suffice to say that for all those things (except perhaps number of MCs) other armies can do them better. The only upside I can find is that none of them can do all of them except for nids. Point being that there is not just one or even a few things we can call the 'strength of the new nids'. So if we cannot effectively specialize shouldn't we generalize and come at things from a Jack-of-all Trades perspective? Preferring units that serve for a multitude of functions and creating lists that do not focus on just one or two things but rather actually focus on creating options and being adaptable. It's much easier to exorcise synergy tactically when more options are available. Deployment options like Hive Commander, DS, infiltrate, etc are very useful for an all comers list even if you know you won't always use them.
IE, naked hormagaunts are only really good for tying up other units but add TS and they can both tie them up and/or kill them depending on what you're looking at. Add AG instead and they can are better at getting to units to tie them up, are a little better at killing on the charge and can quickly glance transports to death (after surrounding them).
Devilgants are great shooty but Toxic Devilgants have more options. Lets see you soot the 10 man Tac Sqaud and on average 5 die, you assault the squad and kill 3-4 more. Now there's an average of 1-2 of them left at the end of your turn and your devilgants can't be shot and have only 1-2 models left to kill on your opponents turn. That kind of thing. Or you opponents doesnt want to VS your HT with his Daemon Prince because he doesn't want to get grounded to close to the Toxic Devilgants...
I'm not saying take all options or anything of the sort but rather options that increase their tactical usefulness and if at all possible expand it to areas outside of their main focus. A small unit of assault Shrikes is hindered very little by losing one attack and adding a barbed strangler but this doubles their options tactically.
I'm saying we don't need to be the strongest, just the most adaptive.
Automatically Appended Next Post: ...and while I was writing, and new star appeared on the horizon....
(Jeopardy Theme Music)
Alex: Welcome back. We left of on Abandons turn to make a selection, what would you like Abandon?
Incoming noob question but, in the bigger tournaments are dataslates allowed? I can see these being awesome for making nids a diverse and competitive army. Not attempting to rain on the parade but in all honesty if the dataslates are not allowed maybe nids should be the exception? Think about it, as an army that can't take allies at all what would be the most logical AND fluffy solution to make nids more competitive? Let them take dataslates always. BOOM. Mind, blown. It makes nids on par with those top tier armies where they have to a to actually think 'damn, if I instagib that MC I might have X amounts of hordes on me next turn. If I splat the hordes the mc will destroy my shinny riptide/wraith knight/insert shiny thing you don't want to lose. What do you guys think? Illusions of grandeur or something that should be implemented?
P.S. by allowing this GW effectively increases their sales of nids. BOOM. Mind, blown x2.
TL;DR let nids take unrestricted formations always for lack of allies.
Speneticus wrote: Incoming noob question but, in the bigger tournaments are dataslates allowed? I can see these being awesome for making nids a diverse and competitive army. Not attempting to rain on the parade but in all honesty if the dataslates are not allowed maybe nids should be the exception? Think about it, as an army that can't take allies at all what would be the most logical AND fluffy solution to make nids more competitive? Let them take dataslates always. BOOM. Mind, blown. It makes nids on par with those top tier armies where they have to a to actually think 'damn, if I instagib that MC I might have X amounts of hordes on me next turn. If I splat the hordes the mc will destroy my shinny riptide/wraith knight/insert shiny thing you don't want to lose. What do you guys think? Illusions of grandeur or something that should be implemented?
P.S. by allowing this GW effectively increases their sales of nids. BOOM. Mind, blown x2.
TL;DR let nids take unrestricted formations always for lack of allies.
Right now not many big tournaments are allowing formations because they're concerned about players abusing the OP ones (really just the tau one). I run RTTs at my game store and I'm pretty open about letting players use them - it's official GW product so why not? I think we will see a lot more acceptance of these once those new imperial titans hit the table. It's the Wild West right now.
Also I suspect that if 7th edition is truly slated for May 2014 as 40k radio has predicted, lords of war, stronghold, and dataslates will all be specifically mentioned in the BRB and settle the debate then. That's another reason why I'm letting it all in now.
Shorter answer - run it past your TO and see what they'd do. Nids unable to ally does make them a more fair recipient of dataslate love, I think.
SBG wrote: I feel clever for purchasing 8 metal lictors and Deathleaper a year ago for about 25% of retail.
I just like the models, the dataslate was a huge bonus!
I'll be getting this slate for sure if there's Warriors in it. They just don't see enough table time as it is.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Annnd pics are gone.
Hah! For that reason I am happy to have 4 of the 2nd edition lictors (did have 5 but one got mixed with a 3rd ed. lictor to make Deathleaper) in addition to my 2 4th ed ones.
And would you believe I got 3 of the 2nd edition lictors for £5?
Ok, I cannot be the only person who noticed this / is excited / hopeful about this.
There is a TERVIGON in the ebook sample of Rising Leviathan II.
I don't care that it has crushing claws. If I can buy a tervigon outside of FoC (formation detachment yay!) that doesn't have a 30 gaunt tax, I'm running it EVERY SINGLE GAME EVER.
Ok, I cannot be the only person who noticed this / is excited / hopeful about this.
There is a TERVIGON in the ebook sample of Rising Leviathan II.
I don't care that it has crushing claws. If I can buy a tervigon outside of FoC (formation detachment yay!) that doesn't have a 30 gaunt tax, I'm running it EVERY SINGLE GAME EVER.
It probably won't be scoring or it will still require the gant tax. We will see In a week.
Ok, I cannot be the only person who noticed this / is excited / hopeful about this.
There is a TERVIGON in the ebook sample of Rising Leviathan II.
I don't care that it has crushing claws. If I can buy a tervigon outside of FoC (formation detachment yay!) that doesn't have a 30 gaunt tax, I'm running it EVERY SINGLE GAME EVER.
It probably won't be scoring or it will still require the gant tax. We will see In a week.
It'll still birth scoring units, right?
Even if not scoring entirely, thats an MC with 6W w/ synapse for the backfield with a psychic power.
I can't imagine it'd be non-scoring with no special rules (come on endless birthing! No fail on doubles!)
Ok, I cannot be the only person who noticed this / is excited / hopeful about this.
There is a TERVIGON in the ebook sample of Rising Leviathan II.
I don't care that it has crushing claws. If I can buy a tervigon outside of FoC (formation detachment yay!) that doesn't have a 30 gaunt tax, I'm running it EVERY SINGLE GAME EVER.
As if we haven't seen enough of this picture. LOL!!!
I can't say how thrilled I am with the coming of this new dataslate. I am a big fan of the WoN gants and loved running the Endless Swarm in Apoc. And now we get it with our regular army? Wow....can't wait!
However, 2 words of warning to those planning to run the Endless Swarm formation:
1. Watch out for Synapse. If your opponent takes out your synapse, then you won't be able to control the swarm.
2. For those looking to run a MTO-style Tyranid list, this probably might not work out for you. It takes up a significant chunk of your points that would otherwise be going towards your other super-fast offensive units. (Don't forget, you still need to take your standard 2 FOC troop selections). Thus, the greater the swarm, the lesser the Threat Overload.
Just finished a local 3 game tournament, used my Nids, went 3-0 for the day and placed 2nd in the end behind a very powerful Eldar player who finished with maximum points. Considering leading up to the tournament I was yet to win a game I was rather chuffed with results. I beat a Nurgle Chaos Marines with Nurgle Daemon allies in my first game. A Space Marine/Tau/Inquisitor second game, and an Imperial Guard/Space Marine army in the last round.
I'll post up some more details tomorrow if people are interested in hearing.
SBG wrote: I feel clever for purchasing 8 metal lictors and Deathleaper a year ago for about 25% of retail.
I just like the models, the dataslate was a huge bonus!
I'll be getting this slate for sure if there's Warriors in it. They just don't see enough table time as it is.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Annnd pics are gone.
Hah! For that reason I am happy to have 4 of the 2nd edition lictors (did have 5 but one got mixed with a 3rd ed. lictor to make Deathleaper) in addition to my 2 4th ed ones.
And would you believe I got 3 of the 2nd edition lictors for £5?
There's just something about pewter, it's better than the FC. Good find!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldercaveman wrote: Just finished a local 3 game tournament, used my Nids, went 3-0 for the day and placed 2nd in the end behind a very powerful Eldar player who finished with maximum points. Considering leading up to the tournament I was yet to win a game I was rather chuffed with results. I beat a Nurgle Chaos Marines with Nurgle Daemon allies in my first game. A Space Marine/Tau/Inquisitor second game, and an Imperial Guard/Space Marine army in the last round.
I'll post up some more details tomorrow if people are interested in hearing.
Our thirst for information must be slaked! Feed us data, that we may adapt our strategies for the betterment of the Swarm...
The endless swarm looks to be 3 broods Hormies, 2 broods Termies, 1 brood of Warriors. Broods of gaunts that die come back to life in Reserve on a 4+
The preview on the iTunes page contradicts this. It says the formation includes 3 Horms, 3 Terms, and 1 Warrior brood. Anyone have any clue which is correct?
I hope the 2 Termagant one is correct. This formation costs quite a lot of points, especially because you also have to fill 2 Troops in your primary detachment.
rollawaythestone wrote: I hope the 2 Termagant one is correct. This formation costs quite a lot of points, especially because you also have to fill 2 Troops in your primary detachment.
Assuming the formation is non-scoring (just for the sake of argument), what would you take for your two troops?
I'm leaning towards a couple of small broods of sniper-Warriors, with Barbed Stranglers and nothing else. These can back-field objective camp, and provide Synapse to any re-spawned broods that have to run past them. This also means you can gear up the formation-Warriors for close range devastation (Rending Claws/Toxin Sacks?).
Well, if you take a 30 man Termagant unit in your Formation, you can unlock a Tervigon. Maybe two units of 30 man termgants in the formation, for two Tervigons? If the Formation isn't scoring, I may not run it at all. That's a big deal breaker for me. It's a huge points investment for units that don't do much damage and can't even score.
I can't imagine the troops in the formation will be somehow "not scoring". The real temptation will be to kit out the swarm, because they can come back, justifying a larger investment.
So I think I'll be Toxic boosting the Hormies and tossing Dev's on some of the Termies... Above I suggested two Warrior broods for troops....scoring and Synapse. And Tunnel Assault for transport...
I'm sure they will be scoring, none of the other dataslates or supplements have removed scoring, only certain levels of Allied detachments in the BRB. It is worth noting that the first dataslate had unit entries for Stealers and such and I would think we'll find out if the formation unlocks Termagants when we see whether or not Scuttling Swarm is included in their dataslate entry. If not I'd say no, as the rule is specific to the Gaunts entry in the codex. Unless they space on it (which is totally possible seeing the overall quality of the recent digital releases). I'm sure some will still argue about it either way.
It's not that the other dataslates or Formations have removed scoring, it's that we don't know if they actually retain their FoC slot status. Thus, are Broadsides in that Tau formation actually HS? Are Gants in the Endless Swarm actually Troops? Nothing has clarified this issue. In fact, some of the RAW interpretation right now would suggest that they are completely independent of the FoC, and thus don't retain their Force Org status. That's my understanding of the issue, anyway.
Huh. Well, I've not seen all of them but the ones I have state the force org choice. Dataslate 1 has Stealers listed as Troops; the Formation rules in the slate are pretty clear too. I suppose some will decide to argue it but there is nothing anywhere that says not scoring and it seems pretty clear to my reading that they are. It states that the associated Faction determines the Codex the Formation counts as being from for all rules purposes. In a Tyranid army, Genestealers are Troops, as are those in the slate. I really don't see any gray area. It's not unlike the Battle Brothers/Transports issue except in that case there are two mutually exclusive rules in the same book. I wonder if the rumored BRB update will also clarify some such things by introducing the Faction concept. I'm going to run the formation, and score with it, personally. But then I'm not playing anyone who's going to be freaking out about it.
Rules as Written: Troops are scoring no matter which detachment they come from.
Rules as Intended: GW has stated that dataslate Genestealers are scoring on their Facebook page.
So as promised here is a brief overview of my Tournament on Saturday
It was only a small local event, but there were some strong lists there, mostly, Eldar, Chaos and Marines. There wasn't a single Tau player there though, which was probably lucky for everyone as there was next to no line of sight blocking terrain, and when there was it was often placed to the edges of the board.
My list
1650 Points.
Hive Tyrant, Wings, Hive Commander, Lash Whip and Bonesword, TL Devourer.
Hive Tyrant, Wings, 2 x TL Devourers.
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope
Tervigon, Cluster Spines
30 x Termagants, 20 Fleshbourers, 10 Devourers
20 xGargoyles
3x Biovores
2 x Carnifexes, 1 TL Devourer each.
Mawloc.
Game 1 vs Nurgle Chaos Marines, with Nurgle Daemon Allies.
A rough estimation of his list
Nurgle Lord (Rolled for Eternal Warrior)
3-4 Squads of Plague Marines with Flamers, Meltas, Plasmas.
2 Las/Missile Hellbrutes
Great Unclean One
Plaguebearers
Nurglings.
Mission Emperor's Will,
Dawn of War
Night Fight
I got first turn, put my powers up and moved up a little, taking a few pot shots at his plague marines with the Fexes. Didn't do much damage. Biovores got some hot shots off killing 4-5 Plague Marines from one squad. I also flew both my Tyrants off the board.
My opponent put everything he could into my Gargoyles to get first blood, but thanks to my Venomthrope, night fight and ruins, 1 remained!
Turn 2 my Mawloc arrived smashing 5-6 Plague Marines before going back into reserve. Tervigon and Termagants walked on, I decided there would be no benefit to outflanking this game as he was deployed fairly central. and so were all the objectives, my Warlord tyrant flew on and put some wounds into a unit of Plague Marines, my other Tyrant took out one of his Helbrutes for first blood.
My opponent then deep struke his plague bearers and GUO into my deployment zone. Near my Termagants and Tervigon.
Turn 3 Mawloc came back on causing some more damage and then going back into reserve. I opted not to shoot with my Termagants instead I ran blocking his GUO from getting to my Tervigon ( or so I thought). My Carnifexes where also finished off in overwatch by his flamers. His Flamers took 8 Catalyst'd Carnifex wounds in this game!
In his turn he rolled difficult terrain on his GUO arguing that he could pass through a solid ruin wall, allowing him to get into assault range of my Tervigon, this isn't how we play it at my club, but at his apparently it is. And it was allowed. His Plague bearers also charge my Termgants, these would tie down the Bearers and a unit of PM's for the rest of the game. Luckily for me he hadn't cheesed his GUO up with the Balesword and BIomancy, so my Tervigon survived with 1 wound left! If he had killed her, that would have been game.
Turn 4
I think I hear the judge call 5 minutes left. So i rush through my turn, dropping my Warlord over to ID his GUO, he fails. My other Tyrant Jumps over to his objective and warlord in the ruins shoots a load and then charges, contesting the objective. Tervigon Spawns and the Gants run on to my objective. I think I've got the game here.
The judge called 25 minutes.
Luckily my tyrant survives his turn, and my Warlord ID's his GUO.
Game ends here I win 6 - 0 on Primarys and I have FB and LB he has LB.
I have been playing some games throught the last weeks and have been evolvilng my army from a MTO build to something more balanced and tricky.... I want estability, I dont want to rely on tournament cover distribution in orther to survive a shooty army, dont want to lose all my scoring troops and play a desperate game just because my table only had some brushes to hide in... So thats why im going with dual Tervigons and naked gants (dont need Devilgants or toxic If im going to end with 100+ bugs on the table....)
I have decided to have always lots of shrouded areas in my advancing horde so Im going to play with 3 Venomthorpes in 3 diferent slots.... sipnapsis is not going to be a real problem with 2 Flyrants and 2 Mamies so I need no Zoanthorpes in the field... all elite slots go to Venomthorpes to be sure My flyers will always have a place to hide in...., to be sure my mamis always have at least a 3+ or 2+ cover save, to make my little gaunts a pain to kill. (ever tryed to kill 30 gaunts with 2+ cover save and feel no pà in ? )
I have decided to go with 5 FMC and have felt totally in love with Crones over the last games, they are Jack of all trades Master on all !..... ever tryed to assault a LR with a heldrake? no you cant ! but Hive Crones can go to land and smash the gak out of it.... You can never hace too many Hive Crones in your army I have decide to leave my oponent so helpless in his battle area that hes forced to move and come to me. And this is how I do it: Mawloc+ Biovores+2xVengance Weapon Battery with F8/fp3 large blast in a AV14 fortification.... Thats a lot of Large blast..... Biovores and Mawloc will hit LOS targets while Vengance Bateries make extremly hard to kill targets that will force your oponent to change his optimal deployment and movements.
SO at the end the army at 2k end like this:
2 Flyrant
3 Hive Crones
2x30 Termagants
2 Tervigons
3 Venomthorpes in 3 diferent slots
2x Vengance weapon Batery with the F8fp3 large blast
and the HS slots must be a mix of Mawlocs or Biovores as you feel better.
Tested this army so far vs many diferent targets and I must confess Its ridicolously easy to win. Probably the most important change Ive made to my old list is the 3 Venomthorpes, the Dual Vengance Weapon Batery instead of a Bastion and of course the dual tervigon and 60 gaunts played very agresibly going up fast and even asaulting as soon as they can.
Try it.
rollawaythestone wrote: I hope the 2 Termagant one is correct. This formation costs quite a lot of points, especially because you also have to fill 2 Troops in your primary detachment.
Assuming the formation is non-scoring (just for the sake of argument), what would you take for your two troops?
I'm leaning towards a couple of small broods of sniper-Warriors, with Barbed Stranglers and nothing else. These can back-field objective camp, and provide Synapse to any re-spawned broods that have to run past them. This also means you can gear up the formation-Warriors for close range devastation (Rending Claws/Toxin Sacks?).
If the formation is non-scoring, then it isn't feasible at all. There would be no point in taking them thus.
rollawaythestone wrote: It's not that the other dataslates or Formations have removed scoring, it's that we don't know if they actually retain their FoC slot status. Thus, are Broadsides in that Tau formation actually HS? Are Gants in the Endless Swarm actually Troops? Nothing has clarified this issue. In fact, some of the RAW interpretation right now would suggest that they are completely independent of the FoC, and thus don't retain their Force Org status. That's my understanding of the issue, anyway.
They will.
Otherwise, I will claim my lictors from the other formation as troops instead of elites.
If a unit is from a certain FOC selection, then they get all the characteristics of that slot unless otherwise noted.
I have been playing some games throught the last weeks and have been evolvilng my army from a MTO build to something more balanced and tricky.... I want estability, I dont want to rely on tournament cover distribution in orther to survive a shooty army, dont want to lose all my scoring troops and play a desperate game just because my table only had some brushes to hide in... So thats why im going with dual Tervigons and naked gants (dont need Devilgants or toxic If im going to end with 100+ bugs on the table....)
I have decided to have always lots of shrouded areas in my advancing horde so Im going to play with 3 Venomthorpes in 3 diferent slots.... sipnapsis is not going to be a real problem with 2 Flyrants and 2 Mamies so I need no Zoanthorpes in the field... all elite slots go to Venomthorpes to be sure My flyers will always have a place to hide in...., to be sure my mamis always have at least a 3+ or 2+ cover save, to make my little gaunts a pain to kill. (ever tryed to kill 30 gaunts with 2+ cover save and feel no pà in ? )
I have decided to go with 5 FMC and have felt totally in love with Crones over the last games, they are Jack of all trades Master on all !..... ever tryed to assault a LR with a heldrake? no you cant ! but Hive Crones can go to land and smash the gak out of it.... You can never hace too many Hive Crones in your army I have decide to leave my oponent so helpless in his battle area that hes forced to move and come to me. And this is how I do it: Mawloc+ Biovores+2xVengance Weapon Battery with F8/fp3 large blast in a AV14 fortification.... Thats a lot of Large blast..... Biovores and Mawloc will hit LOS targets while Vengance Bateries make extremly hard to kill targets that will force your oponent to change his optimal deployment and movements.
SO at the end the army at 2k end like this:
2 Flyrant
3 Hive Crones
2x30 Termagants
2 Tervigons
3 Venomthorpes in 3 diferent slots
2x Vengance weapon Batery with the F8fp3 large blast
and the HS slots must be a mix of Mawlocs or Biovores as you feel better.
Tested this army so far vs many diferent targets and I must confess Its ridicolously easy to win. Probably the most important change Ive made to my old list is the 3 Venomthorpes, the Dual Vengance Weapon Batery instead of a Bastion and of course the dual tervigon and 60 gaunts played very agresibly going up fast and even asaulting as soon as they can.
Try it.
Can you even take 2 Vengeance Batteries in 1 single FOC army? Fortifications are normally 1 per FOC.
Your list definitely is formidable for a Tyranid army. Have you played against a good Tau or Eldar army yet? I'm curious as to the results.
So as promised here is a brief overview of my Tournament on Saturday
It was only a small local event, but there were some strong lists there, mostly, Eldar, Chaos and Marines. There wasn't a single Tau player there though, which was probably lucky for everyone as there was next to no line of sight blocking terrain, and when there was it was often placed to the edges of the board.
My list
1650 Points.
Hive Tyrant, Wings, Hive Commander, Lash Whip and Bonesword, TL Devourer.
Hive Tyrant, Wings, 2 x TL Devourers.
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope
Tervigon, Cluster Spines
30 x Termagants, 20 Fleshbourers, 10 Devourers
20 xGargoyles
3x Biovores
2 x Carnifexes, 1 TL Devourer each.
Mawloc.
Game 1 vs Nurgle Chaos Marines, with Nurgle Daemon Allies.
A rough estimation of his list
Nurgle Lord (Rolled for Eternal Warrior)
3-4 Squads of Plague Marines with Flamers, Meltas, Plasmas.
2 Las/Missile Hellbrutes
Great Unclean One
Plaguebearers
Nurglings.
Mission Emperor's Will,
Dawn of War
Night Fight
I got first turn, put my powers up and moved up a little, taking a few pot shots at his plague marines with the Fexes. Didn't do much damage. Biovores got some hot shots off killing 4-5 Plague Marines from one squad. I also flew both my Tyrants off the board.
My opponent put everything he could into my Gargoyles to get first blood, but thanks to my Venomthrope, night fight and ruins, 1 remained!
Turn 2 my Mawloc arrived smashing 5-6 Plague Marines before going back into reserve. Tervigon and Termagants walked on, I decided there would be no benefit to outflanking this game as he was deployed fairly central. and so were all the objectives, my Warlord tyrant flew on and put some wounds into a unit of Plague Marines, my other Tyrant took out one of his Helbrutes for first blood.
My opponent then deep struke his plague bearers and GUO into my deployment zone. Near my Termagants and Tervigon.
Turn 3 Mawloc came back on causing some more damage and then going back into reserve. I opted not to shoot with my Termagants instead I ran blocking his GUO from getting to my Tervigon ( or so I thought). My Carnifexes where also finished off in overwatch by his flamers. His Flamers took 8 Catalyst'd Carnifex wounds in this game!
In his turn he rolled difficult terrain on his GUO arguing that he could pass through a solid ruin wall, allowing him to get into assault range of my Tervigon, this isn't how we play it at my club, but at his apparently it is. And it was allowed. His Plague bearers also charge my Termgants, these would tie down the Bearers and a unit of PM's for the rest of the game. Luckily for me he hadn't cheesed his GUO up with the Balesword and BIomancy, so my Tervigon survived with 1 wound left! If he had killed her, that would have been game.
Turn 4
I think I hear the judge call 5 minutes left. So i rush through my turn, dropping my Warlord over to ID his GUO, he fails. My other Tyrant Jumps over to his objective and warlord in the ruins shoots a load and then charges, contesting the objective. Tervigon Spawns and the Gants run on to my objective. I think I've got the game here.
The judge called 25 minutes.
Luckily my tyrant survives his turn, and my Warlord ID's his GUO.
Game ends here I win 6 - 0 on Primarys and I have FB and LB he has LB.
I'll post game 2 up later.
Congrats on the battle.
So how did you find the devourers working for you? Personally, I'd run 2x TL-D's on all my monsters that can take them, but carnifexes with 1 TL-Dev and the CC-flyrant is an interesting config.
I think that many players would be very scared by this army...
From another thread, but I've been thinking of a more speed oriented list designed to close and beat face rapidly. Outflank/infiltrate the Stealers, and everything else spends turn 1 in the Venom-cloud before sprinting ahead and rending everything to death.
The data slates do say that that Troops are troops and the verbage that says they count the same as units from the codex. The formations just don't use up FoC slots in your Primary Detachment. People who say they don't count don't have the data slates and the forum rules prevent people who do have it from copy and pasting the rules in the forums.
I built my Hive tyrant as a "Winged asassain" I customized the arms so it can (theoreticly) shoot by pointing it's elbows. I got the idea from old "Ghost in the shell" episodes.
So I run it a Lash whip, Bone sword, Toxic, TL Brain leeches...and don't pay the extra 15 (and so don't use the Brain leeches) when points get tight.
I've recently been running Wings, Sword and Whip, Toxin Sacs, Devourers and Electroshock Grubs on my non-Warlord Tyrant. It's been doing well so far, I'm enjoying the versatility even though I occasionally miss the damage output 2 sets of Devourers provides. I find myself Vector Striking more frequently with this setup.
PrinceRaven wrote: I've recently been running Wings, Sword and Whip, Toxin Sacs, Devourers and Electroshock Grubs on my non-Warlord Tyrant. It's been doing well so far, I'm enjoying the versatility even though I occasionally miss the damage output 2 sets of Devourers provides. I find myself Vector Striking more frequently with this setup.
It's an MC Hunter arrangement and my typical set-up as well as I've been finding a lot more MCs in my opponents armies lately. Otherwise I'd have stuck with dual devourers. If it's not being used elsewhere you should try the Reaper of Obliterax instead of TS and LW+BS sometime.
I understand and fully agree about the 2x TLDevs but that was more for WYSIWYG than anything else. Although, at a lower points level like 1650 they did pull there weight, and having the CC tyrant was a nice boon when something really needed killing, like that GUO. My previous list had a full brood of Fexes but I dropped one for the Mawloc, which was golden for me throughout the tournament.
My Tyranid Bastion is coming along well. Hopefully it will get an outing in the next couple of weeks.
As well as a home for the venomthrope I am looking to man a quadgun for some extra shooting. If I put the bastion fowards then I am really looking an infiltrator to man the battlements so the venomthrope can walk inside turn one. The choice would be a lictor and for the highlander event I am thinking of deathleaper for the Ld modifier to an enemy character. The twin linking of the quad gun then makes then BS3 less of an issue and gives deathleaper something to actually do rather than just stay alive!
The only other choice is to start off with the bastion in my own deployment zone so I can occupy it from the off, but will this put the venomthrope too far back to really assist the army? One to have a try around with at least.
I did look at a prime to man the gun and this would give backfield synapse, but only in a list where I can't take dual flyrants.
Just pay 30 pts for a Magos machine spirit and let the Bastion auto-fire at bs3. Use lictors for assaulting backfield infantry and tanks, as they're designed to do.
PrinceRaven wrote: I've recently been running Wings, Sword and Whip, Toxin Sacs, Devourers and Electroshock Grubs on my non-Warlord Tyrant. It's been doing well so far, I'm enjoying the versatility even though I occasionally miss the damage output 2 sets of Devourers provides. I find myself Vector Striking more frequently with this setup.
It's an MC Hunter arrangement and my typical set-up as well as I've been finding a lot more MCs in my opponents armies lately. Otherwise I'd have stuck with dual devourers. If it's not being used elsewhere you should try the Reaper of Obliterax instead of TS and LW+BS sometime.
It's a shame only swooping FMCs can vector strike. It would really be nice to soften up a unit before assaulting it.
tetrisphreak wrote: Just pay 30 pts for a Magos machine spirit and let the Bastion auto-fire at bs3. Use lictors for assaulting backfield infantry and tanks, as they're designed to do.
The reason not to do this is that an auto-firing gun must shoot at the closest target that it can hurt.
So I completely forgot that the Railhead Rumble was this weekend and I'm only sort of prepared.
2 dakkaflyrants, 6 dakkafexes, exocrine, tervigon, gants is my current plan. Basically, I might play all killpoint games all weekend so a reilient 6 kill point list seems like a good idea. Thoughts?
rigeld2 wrote: So I completely forgot that the Railhead Rumble was this weekend and I'm only sort of prepared.
2 dakkaflyrants, 6 dakkafexes, exocrine, tervigon, gants is my current plan. Basically, I might play all killpoint games all weekend so a reilient 6 kill point list seems like a good idea. Thoughts?
Interesting Rules packet - i can see you either playing Purge the Alien or Relic all 6 games. Either way having only 2 scoring units won't hurt your list at all -and having one of the scoring units being a T6 6W monstrous creature is nice too.
My fellow Hive Mind-ers..........starting out with Tyranids and doing an escalation league to boot. How do you feel about this to start off? Kill Team rules in effect
200 pts.
Venomthrope
with Lashwhips and Toxic Miasma
Hormagaunt Brood
11x with Scything Talons
Tyranid Shrike Brood
3x with Toxin Sacs, Devourers, and Scything Talons
Gives me 3 Synapse creatures, with wings to help move back and forth where needed. Venomthrope grants shrouded to the Hormagaunts for survivability. The only question is, how many squads would you break the gaunts into?
tetrisphreak wrote: True - but you can shoot the quad gun WITH the venomthrope inside the bastion if you need to target it. They're BS3 if i remember correctly.
And yes, all the fortifications have access to the upgrades list in the Stronghold expansion book.
Nobody plays stronghold and I don't own the book, so bastion is only option.
Venomthrope can help shoot the heavy bolters (of which only 2 are ever likely to face) but if he's inside he can't shoot the gun emplacement quad-gun that comes as an extra. This is the one that kills stuff as it's S7 and twin-linked. I know I could just get a vanilla bastion but it seems such a shame to not make use of the upgrade. I do though worry that if I sit say a unit of gants on it they will need synapse babysitting and if I put it on the battlements and deploy forward I need a infiltrator to make sure it doesn't get stolen. I know that RAW the quadgun dosn't have to be placed on the bastion but I feel it's too cheesy for me to place it somewhere entirely different.
As to lictors assaulting backfield units - they need to survive a round of shooting first. For infantry in charge range they also get a round of overwatch against T4 and 5+ armour. Hmmm. Against vehicles you're putting a lot of faith in the ability of fleshhooks to be both in range and effective against rear armour. Only way they work is in target saturation lists where they come in from reserve or you run dataslate lists.
I don't really see the effectiveness of them myself but I like the -d3 to leadership for total anti-psyker on deathleaper but want to give him something useful to do - manning a quadgun you can only snapshot back at and with a 2+ cover save /toughness 7 it should stay around for a while. Best way to kill it will be killing the bastion ...
ductvader wrote: Just ran my strangle fexes against Templars....put 39 wounds on a unit of marines with 2 Devourers/ Stranglethorn cannons...money.
Cool! I recently came into two Carnifexes (B-day) and I was thinking Strangle Cannon Gun-Fex Glad to hear it works well.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ruminator wrote: My Tyranid Bastion is coming along well. Hopefully it will get an outing in the next couple of weeks.
As well as a home for the venomthrope I am looking to man a quadgun for some extra shooting. If I put the bastion fowards then I am really looking an infiltrator to man the battlements so the venomthrope can walk inside turn one. The choice would be a lictor and for the highlander event I am thinking of deathleaper for the Ld modifier to an enemy character. The twin linking of the quad gun then makes then BS3 less of an issue and gives deathleaper something to actually do rather than just stay alive!
The only other choice is to start off with the bastion in my own deployment zone so I can occupy it from the off, but will this put the venomthrope too far back to really assist the army? One to have a try around with at least.
I did look at a prime to man the gun and this would give backfield synapse, but only in a list where I can't take dual flyrants.
I'd look at a small brood of Stealers, though they can't shoot...but they can infiltrate in and run out end of game to grab something. With a Lictor you also can deep strike with total accuracy with 6" (Hmm from the wall, that is a Big bubble...) so Mawloc becomes a "bastion body guard"
ductvader wrote: Just ran my strangle fexes against Templars....put 39 wounds on a unit of marines with 2 Devourers/ Stranglethorn cannons...money.
Cool! I recently came into two Carnifexes (B-day) and I was thinking Strangle Cannon Gun-Fex Glad to hear it works well.
Yeah, it means that you don't have to bull rush the field with you're limited 18-24" range guns...I heavily recommend a tri-warrior barbed strangler baby sitter. (They usually target the same unit from a distance or up close.)
ductvader wrote: Just ran my strangle fexes against Templars....put 39 wounds on a unit of marines with 2 Devourers/ Stranglethorn cannons...money.
How compact was that unit?!?!
39 hits, assuming all 12 shots from the Devs hit means 27 hits from the blasts... meaning 13 each. Under a single large blast. Good god man.
It was indeed (Crusader Squad that just won combat in his turn against some sacrificial termagants)....not doubting that it wasn't average, but it was glorious.
Automatically Appended Next Post: My most recent and most powerful TAC list.
tetrisphreak wrote: True - but you can shoot the quad gun WITH the venomthrope inside the bastion if you need to target it. They're BS3 if i remember correctly.
And yes, all the fortifications have access to the upgrades list in the Stronghold expansion book.
Nobody plays stronghold and I don't own the book, so bastion is only option.
I don't have the Stronghold book either, but one of my opponents cites it as the reason he can shoot at an unoccupied bastion. Despite feeling like the Stronghold and other expansions (like dataslate, titans, forgeworld, Apocolypse) add to complications and subtract from balance, but I actually do hope that the rules for such things are incooperated into the 7th edition rules to solve some of these sort of arguments.
ruminator wrote: Venomthrope can help shoot the heavy bolters (of which only 2 are ever likely to face) but if he's inside he can't shoot the gun emplacement quad-gun that comes as an extra. This is the one that kills stuff as it's S7 and twin-linked. I know I could just get a vanilla bastion but it seems such a shame to not make use of the upgrade. I do though worry that if I sit say a unit of gants on it they will need synapse babysitting and if I put it on the battlements and deploy forward I need a infiltrator to make sure it doesn't get stolen. I know that RAW the quadgun dosn't have to be placed on the bastion but I feel it's too cheesy for me to place it somewhere entirely different.
Most times I run the bastion with Comms relay. I keep Venom inside + 3 warriors with 2 Devourers and 1 Barbed strangler on top. I treat it like an immobile tank with a 36" range. My warriors have a 2+ cover save, so unless I'm playing Tau it works pretty good.
I recall a faq saying that the quadgun could only fire on auto if it was placed on top of the bastion, but it could be placed elsewhere and fired manually. I'm not finding that FAQ right now, so I might have dreamed it, or just read it in the rules forum.
RAW Venom could indeed fire a Heavy bolter of the Bastion (not sure he could fire more than 1). But I've been playing based on the idea that the now obsolete tyranid FAQ that forbid Tyranids from firing fortification weapons will probably come back at some point. RAW tyranids can fire things like Quad guns. My interpretation of RAI is that they can't, but I understand that this might be an unpopular interpretation.
foto69man wrote: My fellow Hive Mind-ers..........starting out with Tyranids and doing an escalation league to boot. How do you feel about this to start off? Kill Team rules in effect
200 pts.
Venomthrope
with Lashwhips and Toxic Miasma
Hormagaunt Brood
11x with Scything Talons
Tyranid Shrike Brood
3x with Toxin Sacs, Devourers, and Scything Talons
Gives me 3 Synapse creatures, with wings to help move back and forth where needed. Venomthrope grants shrouded to the Hormagaunts for survivability. The only question is, how many squads would you break the gaunts into?
No need to list stock equipment. As it is Kill Team, you have no choice, all units run as squads of one.
Well, that's awkward. Just got through the first round of the tournament/league through a forfeit. Opponent didn't have sufficient points so pulled out. Was eldar too. I think the 1500 point 'nidzilla list just dodged its first bullet!
Work schedule changed so it looks like I can go back to the monthly tournament in Ashburn with my Nids on the 16th.
Im working on my list but it looks like this right now:
Warlord Flyrant : AG, Electroshock, HC, Scything Talons, Reaper of Obliterax (Thats right, a full CC tyrant. More attacks, and I cant tell you how often this Tyrant vector strikes and the grubs would be able to hit several vehicles, if not just the one he vectored. And he is S8 on the charge)
Flyrant w/LW/BS, toxin sacs, HVC, HC 2 Lictor Brood (Not sure if its best to run them together or separate for bring the Mawlocs home to good targets without giving up firstblood/killpoints too easy)
17 Termagant
2x Outflanking 4 Warrior Brood, 3 w/devs and rending claws, 1 with scything and LW/BS Harpy
Crone
Crone
Mawloc
Mawloc
2 Biovore Brood
A rush and threat overload list. Im getting the two lictors next week and will play test a few times.
An excellent battle between Geoff's (InControl's) Tyranids and Spam Adam's Triptide Tau. Spam Adam is a regular opponent of mine and his Triptide Tau is a tough, tough army to play against.
jy2 wrote: An excellent battle between Geoff's (InControl's) Tyranids and Spam Adam's Triptide Tau. Spam Adam is a regular opponent of mine and his Triptide Tau is a tough, tough army to play against.
Enjoy!
That list was very similar to the one I've been running. Exocrines are just amazing and a single Tervigon never lets you down!
Here's the list I wrote and tested in my first game just when the codex dropped. Worked fine against a Chaos/Daemon flying circus
Dakka Flyrant
Dakka Flyrant - Electroshock Grubs
2 Hive Guard
2 Venomthrope
Zoanthrope
10 Gants
10 Gants
10 Gants
10 Gants
10 Gants
Hive Crone
Hive Crone
20 Gargoyles
Exocrine
Exocrine
2 Dakkafex
1990 points
Brute-forcing the way to victory. Just hide or reserve the Gants, trying to keep my opponent occupied with the rest of the army. Zoan cast Dominion.
The first wave of FMC's has the job to disrupt and do early damage, grab First Blood if possible and hurt backfield units. They also draw attention from the game-winning second wave (everything else) that runs up to the center were they will dominate with Venom cover and hopefully terrain. Gargoyles provide screening and absorb enemy CC units.
Weak points are obviously scoring units and backfield synapse. But I've got plenty of LOS blocking monsters and Gargoyles to make it harder to take out the Zoanthrope. It's not how my tournament list looks like today, but the top-heavy style has it's appeal. To hell with objectives, go for the tabling!
Right sorry I've been so late putting up these write ups, just been hammered this last week. I'll keep these both brief as I can only remember the short of it.
Game2 vs Space Marine/Tau/Inquisitor
Rough guess at his list
Techmarine
3 Marine combat squads in Las/plas Razorbacks
Relic Whirlwind
2 5 Man scout units
3 Devastator Centurions
Thunderfire Cannon
Cadrefireblade
Fire Warriors
Skyray
Inquisitor
Aegis/Quadgun.
Vanguard
Big Guns Never Tire
Night Fight
I know this player quite well as he plays at one of my local clubs, although I've never met him before, I know he has a very good track record, a slighly one track list, but he is very good with it.
My opponent (Paul) had first turn and castled his army behind a ruin (bumped to 3+) and his Aegis, on his two objectives. I placed mine as far up field as I could, one in the middle of the board, one behind some LOS ruins, and one in my backfield which my Biovores camped on. I deployed to one flank so I would remain outside of double tap of his FW and could flank around the LOS and get behind his Aegis, he infiltrated his Centurions so they could hammer my C-fexes with Grav fire and possibly make it on to my out of sight objective turn 1.
I seized. Boom
Turn 1 Gargoyles jump up and tiedown his Centurions (for the rest of the game)
Everything else walks up, I fly both my Tyrants off. Biovores bring down the thunder, wiping out half a combat squad and all 4/5 scouts.
He returns fire taking a couple of wounds of a Carnifex, but doing no other real damage.
Turn 2 Both Tyrants fly on as far up the board as I can, my Termagants outflank, unfortantly on the wrong side, if had got on his side, I would have been able to put 50 Str 4 shots into his Fire Warriors! They just secure the objective. Flyrants take out a couple of transports with shooting. Mawloc comes on but scatters in to the open.
He charges a combat squad into my Gargoyles to try swing the fight in his favour, the get tied down.
Turn 3 This turn I really do try my hardest to finish the game, thinking heard the judge call 5 minutes remaining, I play an end game, My Mawloc comes off the objective he was contesting, and goes out of cover to charge and kill the Whirlwind, one tyrant takes out the warlords transport in shooting, and the fluff bunny in me takes over, and I land my Warlord to take out his warlord (that was in the recently destroyed Razorback) for a grand finale. My carnifexes charge the Centurions, with one Gargoyle remaining in combat. The Warlord charges the techmarine. Carnifexes take out a couple of Centurions, and get tied down. And I got a bit screwed over with my Warlord, I didn't realise that servo arms were Psuedo Powerfists in combat, and I also ask my opponent if they strike at initiative or Init1, he says at normal initiative, so I let him going first, fatigue setting in, I don't question it. he kills my Warlord.
It was also at this point that I remember, I went first, so my opponent still gets a turn, and the judge called 25 minutes, not 5!
Thankfully all my best efforts to lose the game I manage to hold to it! In the end winning 10-4.
Game 3
IG/Space Marines/Inquisitor
very Rough list.
CCS Flamers in a Chimera
A Big blob with lots of heavy weapons.
Basilisk (or whichever the tank is that drops D3 Large Blasts)
Librarian
Sternguard, Loads of monsterous creature killing weapons.
Droppod,
3 Bikes
5 Scouts
I get first turn.
Hammer and Anvil
Kill points
I'm not really sure who this a worse match up for, me having to foot slog an entire board towards an IG gunline, or him with his 20 something kill points to give away!
There was no real tactical nuences in this game, it was just a good old fashioned slugfest and probably one of the most fun games I have ever played against a proper sound opponent. Made all the better, by the sounds of the two Eldar players arguing constantly on the top table
Some highlights, his sternguard caused 11 wounds on my Tervigon, who had a 3+ cover save, and catalyst. I failed 7 We thought this was going to be First Blood but then remembered one of his heavy weapons teams needed to take a morale test from my biovores which they failed and ran off the board.
His Librarian found a sweet spot which was 12" away from my Biovores and 12.1+" from any Shadows, he Psychic shrieked the unit off the board, one of my hive tyrants got revenge Psychic Screaming him off the board!
Venomthrope was easily MvP of the game, and probably the tournament. It draws so much fire power, and if you are clever with it will stay alive for a long time barring crappy dice rolls. And they aren't shooting at your synapse!
In the end I won this one by a considerable margain just because of the difference in kill points in our lists, I only had 2 Hive tyrants left on the board in the end!
Our first match at 1500, after a string of victories at 1750.
THis was against a Tau list, 5 pathfinders, 4 Marker Drones, 2 Riptides - one of them with some heavyweight FW cannon, both with tough shields - 3 crisis suits, 3 squads FW, one in a devilfish.
I'd tailored somewhat for Tau by bringing 3 rather than 2 biovores, he tailored by adding that forgeworld gun to splatter nids.
It was tough, lots of time taking out the markerlights methodically, and my FMC got ground down by the end. Boivores were terrific, spawning lots of spores and really bugging him, but in the end that FW cannon took them all down with one blast. Mawloc caused him loads of hassle, took out 7 fire warriors and several pathfinders, then went straight back into reserves having totally cleared his objective
.
Lost Warlord flyrant turn 2, Crone turn 3, another Crone turn 4, last flyrant with really unlucky rolls turn 5. All the gargoyles engaged one Riptide turn 4, failed to do any damage, fell out of synapse, mostly died then ran - their only real engagement. Including a few devilgants hugely increases damage output.
Despite heavy losses, controlled my objective, cleared everything off his, with the Mawloc just off, and challenged the third. We tied the game.
I emjoyed playing this new list more than my old (pod-heavy list), it's more diverse. Altho I miss my carnifexes.
Still thinking, and waiting for impact of dataslates, but seriously considering dropping the gargoyles - they've had a good run - and one Biovore for a second Mawloc. I think my opponent placed highly in the big store tournament... so not too bad all in. This was my first Tau only battle, I've beaten tau/SW alliance with the old codex. He made errors - didn't get the warriors out of the devilfish in time, altho I'd have probably splattered them, and I totally forgot to vector strike the Crones. If I'd done so, I think the game would have been mine.
Moral of the story: it can be a slog, but Tau aren't definitely a death-match, and the Mawloc brings a lot of the fear-factor from the old Doom, maybe more so, as you can rinse and repeat.
THis was against a Tau list, 5 pathfinders, 4 Marker Drones, 2 Riptides - one of them with some heavyweight FW cannon, both with tough shields - 3 crisis suits, 3 squads FW, one in a devilfish.
I'd tailored somewhat for Tau by bringing 3 rather than 2 biovores, he tailored by adding that forgeworld gun to splatter nids.
It was tough, lots of time taking out the markerlights methodically, and my FMC got ground down by the end. Boivores were terrific, spawning lots of spores and really bugging him, but in the end that FW cannon took them all down with one blast. Mawloc caused him loads of hassle, took out 7 fire warriors and several pathfinders, then went straight back into reserves having totally cleared his objective
.
Lost Warlord flyrant turn 2, Crone turn 3, another Crone turn 4, last flyrant with really unlucky rolls turn 5. All the gargoyles engaged one Riptide turn 4, failed to do any damage, fell out of synapse, mostly died then ran - their only real engagement. Including a few devilgants hugely increases damage output.
Despite heavy losses, controlled my objective, cleared everything off his, with the Mawloc just off, and challenged the third. We tied the game.
I emjoyed playing this new list more than my old (pod-heavy list), it's more diverse. Altho I miss my carnifexes.
Still thinking, and waiting for impact of dataslates, but seriously considering dropping the gargoyles - they've had a good run - and one Biovore for a second Mawloc. I think my opponent placed highly in the big store tournament... so not too bad all in. This was my first Tau only battle, I've beaten tau/SW alliance with the old codex. He made errors - didn't get the warriors out of the devilfish in time, altho I'd have probably splattered them, and I totally forgot to vector strike the Crones. If I'd done so, I think the game would have been mine.
Moral of the story: it can be a slog, but Tau aren't definitely a death-match, and the Mawloc brings a lot of the fear-factor from the old Doom, maybe more so, as you can rinse and repeat.
If you can find the points I strongly endorse a second Mawloc!
tetrisphreak wrote:
It's a shame only swooping FMCs can vector strike. It would really be nice to soften up a unit before assaulting it.
Thorax weapon with ESG instead. Not quite as good as a VS all around but better vs high armor vehicles and crowds.
rigeld2 wrote:So I completely forgot that the Railhead Rumble was this weekend and I'm only sort of prepared.
2 dakkaflyrants, 6 dakkafexes, exocrine, tervigon, gants is my current plan. Basically, I might play all killpoint games all weekend so a reilient 6 kill point list seems like a good idea. Thoughts?
Adding the charge distance to the Keg to total first turn movement sounds like a real boon to a lot of nid units. Might even be worth TSing you gants so they can deal 30 wounds to it on turn one (60 autohits at 4+ poison if they all get to strike). That should secure your winning status on the bonus points side (in addition to any wounds from shooting)
jy2 wrote: An excellent battle between Geoff's (InControl's) Tyranids and Spam Adam's Triptide Tau. Spam Adam is a regular opponent of mine and his Triptide Tau is a tough, tough army to play against.
It looked like Spam Adam was far too wedded to stationary Tau gunline, and didn't know what he was facing. He focused most of his fire on Gaunts? If a Tau opponent is going to play that passively, then slow Tyranids have a chance. I'm sure Spam Adam has learned his lesson, and could win in the future.
We also can't count on Riptides failing 4 Nova charges or Tervigons spawning that successfully. Still good to see a little success.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm trying to get my models painted before I buy more, so I still haven't added any fast attack to my collection, and I've been brainstorming about how to make the models I have more effective, especially against Armor and Tau (2 things that Crones would help with a lot).
The most effective list I've found is a 2 Flyrant, 2 ZThrope, 3 Mawloc, 2 Outflanking devilgaunt, with some Genesteelers for added turn 2 pressure. The more I've thought about this the more it seems like a Trygon Prime might actually be viable in my list (taking out 1 Mawloc + Genesteelers). He is overpriced, but better than a Mawloc or Genesteelers at killing Mech, and provides synapse which generally dies on me in turns 5 and 6. So I've come up with this list, and was looking for your impressions as to the point efficiency of the Trygon Prime.
Also a rules question. If my Trygon Prime comes in turn 2, and one of my TGaunt squads come in turn 3, could the TGaunt use the tunnel even though I've declared them as "Outflanking"? What If my flyrant flies off the board into ongoing reserves, could he come back on through the Trygon Tunnel? Could he do so while Swooping?
jy2 wrote: An excellent battle between Geoff's (InControl's) Tyranids and Spam Adam's Triptide Tau. Spam Adam is a regular opponent of mine and his Triptide Tau is a tough, tough army to play against.
It looked like Spam Adam was far too wedded to stationary Tau gunline, and didn't know what he was facing. He focused most of his fire on Gaunts? If a Tau opponent is going to play that passively, then slow Tyranids have a chance. I'm sure Spam Adam has learned his lesson, and could win in the future.
We also can't count on Riptides failing 4 Nova charges or Tervigons spawning that successfully. Still good to see a little success.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm trying to get my models painted before I buy more, so I still haven't added any fast attack to my collection, and I've been brainstorming about how to make the models I have more effective, especially against Armor and Tau (2 things that Crones would help with a lot).
The most effective list I've found is a 2 Flyrant, 2 ZThrope, 3 Mawloc, 2 Outflanking devilgaunt, with some Genesteelers for added turn 2 pressure. The more I've thought about this the more it seems like a Trygon Prime might actually be viable in my list (taking out 1 Mawloc + Genesteelers). He is overpriced, but better than a Mawloc or Genesteelers at killing Mech, and provides synapse which generally dies on me in turns 5 and 6. So I've come up with this list, and was looking for your impressions as to the point efficiency of the Trygon Prime.
Also a rules question. If my Trygon Prime comes in turn 2, and one of my TGaunt squads come in turn 3, could the TGaunt use the tunnel even though I've declared them as "Outflanking"? What If my flyrant flies off the board into ongoing reserves, could he come back on through the Trygon Tunnel? Could he do so while Swooping?
No, they can't use the trogon holes. That is only for normal reserves coming in and not any specialized reserves such as outflanking or deep striking.
With regards to the game, I think Spam Adam was somewhat intimidated by the 12 S7 AP2 exocrine shots. That's probably the reason why he played more defensively. Otherwise, Adam is actually a pretty good Taudar player. I haven't been able to beat his army yet with my new Tyranids.
Then again, my early nids weren't really optimized and he did steal the initiative from me in 1 game.
jy2 wrote: An excellent battle between Geoff's (InControl's) Tyranids and Spam Adam's Triptide Tau. Spam Adam is a regular opponent of mine and his Triptide Tau is a tough, tough army to play against.
It looked like Spam Adam was far too wedded to stationary Tau gunline, and didn't know what he was facing. He focused most of his fire on Gaunts? If a Tau opponent is going to play that passively, then slow Tyranids have a chance. I'm sure Spam Adam has learned his lesson, and could win in the future.
We also can't count on Riptides failing 4 Nova charges or Tervigons spawning that successfully. Still good to see a little success.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm trying to get my models painted before I buy more, so I still haven't added any fast attack to my collection, and I've been brainstorming about how to make the models I have more effective, especially against Armor and Tau (2 things that Crones would help with a lot).
The most effective list I've found is a 2 Flyrant, 2 ZThrope, 3 Mawloc, 2 Outflanking devilgaunt, with some Genesteelers for added turn 2 pressure. The more I've thought about this the more it seems like a Trygon Prime might actually be viable in my list (taking out 1 Mawloc + Genesteelers). He is overpriced, but better than a Mawloc or Genesteelers at killing Mech, and provides synapse which generally dies on me in turns 5 and 6. So I've come up with this list, and was looking for your impressions as to the point efficiency of the Trygon Prime.
Also a rules question. If my Trygon Prime comes in turn 2, and one of my TGaunt squads come in turn 3, could the TGaunt use the tunnel even though I've declared them as "Outflanking"? What If my flyrant flies off the board into ongoing reserves, could he come back on through the Trygon Tunnel? Could he do so while Swooping?
Only "infantry" can Tunnel Assault.
I'd have to read up about if an Outflanker can Tunnel assault. It seems like it depends, on "where" Outflankers are ("in Reserves" maybe yes, "set apart" sounds like NO!) I am of the opinion that you can Tunnel Assault a Zoey Brood ("Jump infantry") But, how will you get them into Reserve? Not something you can plan on, for the most part...
If Outflankers could be pushed out a Tunnel, Genestealers start looking even better...
tag8833 wrote: Also a rules question. If my Trygon Prime comes in turn 2, and one of my TGaunt squads come in turn 3, could the TGaunt use the tunnel even though I've declared them as "Outflanking"? What If my flyrant flies off the board into ongoing reserves, could he come back on through the Trygon Tunnel? Could he do so while Swooping?
Only "infantry" can Tunnel Assault.
Brain fart. I forgot that MC's weren't infantry for a second there.
pinecone77 wrote: I'd have to read up about if an Outflanker can Tunnel assault. It seems like it depends, on "where" Outflankers are ("in Reserves" maybe yes, "set apart" sounds like NO!) I am of the opinion that you can Tunnel Assault a Zoey Brood ("Jump infantry") But, how will you get them into Reserve? Not something you can plan on, for the most part...
If Outflankers could be pushed out a Tunnel, Genestealers start looking even better...
Zoanthropes are "Infantry" not "Jump Infantry", but I'm reading the rule as clearly giving permission for outflankers or Deep Strikers to use the trygon tunnel.
The Outflank rule on BRB page 40 says:
When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves
The Deep Striking rule on BRB page 36 says:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep strike special rule and the unit must start the game in reserve.
The Subterranean Assault rule on Codex: Tyranids page says:
Any friendly Tyranid Infantry unit that arrives from reserve in subsequent turns may emerge from the Trygon’s tunnel instead of arriving from reserve as normal.
Reserves is a place not a deployment method. Outflank, Deep Strike, and Subterranean Assault are all deployment methods. Codex special rules always override BRB special rules. The only argument for not being able to substitute Subterranean Assault for Outflank or Deep Strike would seem to be that Outflank and Deep Strike are an abnormal way to arrive from reserve.
However, the old (now obsolete) FAQ says:
Q: Can infantry units without wings that were going to arrive from reserves using the deep strike or outflank rules, instead choose to arrive via a Trygon’s Subterranean Assault ability. (p50)
A: No.
So I'm going to treat it as if that FAQ still holds, and interpret this rule as RAI instead of RAW.
tag8833 wrote: Also a rules question. If my Trygon Prime comes in turn 2, and one of my TGaunt squads come in turn 3, could the TGaunt use the tunnel even though I've declared them as "Outflanking"? What If my flyrant flies off the board into ongoing reserves, could he come back on through the Trygon Tunnel? Could he do so while Swooping?
Only "infantry" can Tunnel Assault.
Brain fart. I forgot that MC's weren't infantry for a second there.
pinecone77 wrote: I'd have to read up about if an Outflanker can Tunnel assault. It seems like it depends, on "where" Outflankers are ("in Reserves" maybe yes, "set apart" sounds like NO!) I am of the opinion that you can Tunnel Assault a Zoey Brood ("Jump infantry") But, how will you get them into Reserve? Not something you can plan on, for the most part...
If Outflankers could be pushed out a Tunnel, Genestealers start looking even better...
Zoanthropes are "Infantry" not "Jump Infantry", but I'm reading the rule as clearly giving permission for outflankers or Deep Strikers to use the trygon tunnel.
The Outflank rule on BRB page 40 says:
When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves
The Deep Striking rule on BRB page 36 says:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep strike special rule and the unit must start the game in reserve.
The Subterranean Assault rule on Codex: Tyranids page says:
Any friendly Tyranid Infantry unit that arrives from reserve in subsequent turns may emerge from the Trygon’s tunnel instead of arriving from reserve as normal.
Reserves is a place not a deployment method. Outflank, Deep Strike, and Subterranean Assault are all deployment methods. Codex special rules always override BRB special rules. The only argument for not being able to substitute Subterranean Assault for Outflank or Deep Strike would seem to be that Outflank and Deep Strike are an abnormal way to arrive from reserve.
However, the old (now obsolete) FAQ says:
Q: Can infantry units without wings that were going to arrive from reserves using the deep strike or outflank rules, instead choose to arrive via a Trygon’s Subterranean Assault ability. (p50)
A: No.
So I'm going to treat it as if that FAQ still holds, and interpret this rule as RAI instead of RAW.
Sounds good, I disagree with the old FAQ, but untill a new one pops up (and is differant) its convincing to me...
The Subterranean Assault rule on Codex: Tyranids page says:
Any friendly Tyranid Infantry unit that arrives from reserve in subsequent turns may emerge from the Trygon’s tunnel instead of arriving from reserve as normal.
Reserves is a place not a deployment method. Outflank, Deep Strike, and Subterranean Assault are all deployment methods. Codex special rules always override BRB special rules. The only argument for not being able to substitute Subterranean Assault for Outflank or Deep Strike would seem to be that Outflank and Deep Strike are an abnormal way to arrive from reserve.
That's the thing. When you declare that you are coming in via deepstriking or outflanking, you are not coming in from reserves as normal. You are coming in through a special method with its own rules to govern how you deploy.
Also, it doesn't make sense to me how you can declare one thing and then later do something completely opposite of what you declared. It's like declaring that you are charging 1 target and then you try to charge another target instead.
tetrisphreak wrote: Any thread lurkers in London get their leviathan II dataslate yet? I'm getting mine at midnight here in the US but I'd love to hear some spoilers.
Made a thread with the skinny in Tactics. Check it out. You're going to love it.
Hey, question. While we're here, and everyone's drifting towards the twin Flyrants with double-down Dakka, a Tervigon and 30 Termagants, a pair of Exocrines, and so on, does anyone have some active reviews from in the field on other options?
No one I've seen yet has talked about using Warriors at all, nor the ... dangit. Hausprix? The thing that isn't an Exocrine. And no one's even *touched* the new Pyrovores.
TheoryHammer's fun and all, but I'm really curious what kinds of foot traffic are out there for this stuff. Like Tyrant Guard... you can take a unit per Tyrant, BUT, you don't have to stick the Tyrant in there... you can run 'em as a unit in and of themselves. WS 5, T 6, Sv 3+ NON-monstrous creatures with Rending and Scythes who can't be thwapped by Krak grenades and who have a high enough save to endure some damage... bonus is that they go ape if a Tyrant gets killed (Like, say, your Flyrant) and get mad crazy aggressive. Surely someone's used them as an assault-based linebreaker for cracking open a tough objective, right?
And people need to try out Pyrovores over the next two weeks. Just to see if they're functional. Everything I see on them says awesome unit that's custom-made for fixing a lot of our problems (Such as dealing with units in cover), but it seems like everyone's gone, "no drop pods? No pyrovores." and shelved them all.
The one time I tried outflanking Prime + 6 dspitter warriors + strangler, they got 1 round of shots off before a DevCent squad + Tig leveled them all in 1 round of shooting. Not the best showing, but it was a brutal shooting phase so it could have just been a fluke.
And pyrovores, I really WANT to believe, but the only way I could see them working in the last dex was to field them in a Spore and drop them down to deliver the flame, but now with no spore... I dunno. Harder to devise effective tactics when they footslog with the rest of our army and can get picked off / kited as easily as anything else. The fact that they're as survivable as a warrior with no offensive capabilities unless they manage to get within range of anything with their flamer is rough stuff.
Wakshaani wrote: Hey, question. While we're here, and everyone's drifting towards the twin Flyrants with double-down Dakka, a Tervigon and 30 Termagants, a pair of Exocrines, and so on, does anyone have some active reviews from in the field on other options?
No one I've seen yet has talked about using Warriors at all, nor the ... dangit. Hausprix? The thing that isn't an Exocrine. And no one's even *touched* the new Pyrovores.
TheoryHammer's fun and all, but I'm really curious what kinds of foot traffic are out there for this stuff. Like Tyrant Guard... you can take a unit per Tyrant, BUT, you don't have to stick the Tyrant in there... you can run 'em as a unit in and of themselves. WS 5, T 6, Sv 3+ NON-monstrous creatures with Rending and Scythes who can't be thwapped by Krak grenades and who have a high enough save to endure some damage... bonus is that they go ape if a Tyrant gets killed (Like, say, your Flyrant) and get mad crazy aggressive. Surely someone's used them as an assault-based linebreaker for cracking open a tough objective, right?
And people need to try out Pyrovores over the next two weeks. Just to see if they're functional. Everything I see on them says awesome unit that's custom-made for fixing a lot of our problems (Such as dealing with units in cover), but it seems like everyone's gone, "no drop pods? No pyrovores." and shelved them all.
Great sadness.
Anybody want to try out some diversity?
Hey Wakshaani...A Pyrovore brood, with 3 stands of rippers out front, and a Venothope nearby....at least they get a good cover save...? 120+45+39? The Pyros can pile into the CC and Acid maw, then take charge of a big area terrain with gory flamey awesomeness! (maybe....)
Well, right now I'm thinking of the Pyros on a "win" of my swarm, tucked in behind 20 Termagants (left wing), 20 Hormagaunts (main middle), and 20 Termagants (right wing) ... they can run (well, lope) at Termagants speed for 1-2 turns before both units settle to shooting... that gives 'em a 5+ cover save, 3+ while the Venomthrope's nearby, and they're a low priority target, so I think that they should be able to push through.
Maybe.
In theory.
Possibly.
Depends on how many other "real" threats I can keep around to pull fire from them. The BIG problem will be against mobile forces (Tau, Eldar, etc), but brotha, they can cook up some Pathfinders like nobody's business.
The prerequisite for Pyrovores being useful is finding an opponent who is unable to take down T4 W3 4+ models with 6 inch movement before they get within 8 inches of them.
PrinceRaven wrote: The prerequisite for Pyrovores being useful is finding an opponent who is unable to take down T4 W3 4+ models with 6 inch movement before they get within 8 inches of them.
Which to be hilarious is still less range than a meltagun. I still want to know what GW were thinking with Pyrovores. The model is nice but if I got one it'd be a Biovore every day of the week.
I think this new dataslate is a game changer people!
Quick break down,
Tervigon + 3 gants broods, must re roll any ones to spawn, otherwise unchanged.
Living artillery node, 1 exocrine, 3 Biovores, 1 Warrior Brood, one warrior must take a cannon. All ranged weapons are pinning, all blast and barrage weapons can re roll scatter.
Synaptic swarm, 1 prime, 3 warriors, all models have 18" synapse.
And my favourite one Skyblight swarm...
1 Flyrant
1 Crone
2 Harpies
3 Units of Gargoyles.
Obejctive secured special rule, all Gargoyles have this rule, any Gargoyle in range of an objective controls it, even if there is an enemy unit in range to contest.
Skyswarm all destroyed units of .gargoyles can come back on a 4+ same way the Swarm formation works!
Haruspex is my list and has done very well by me. It has reached cc in every game I've played. There are more than a few players who think my list is terrible.
Here are a few comments I get -
Reaper of Obliterax is inferior to LW/BS/Adrenal/Toxin on a flyrant. Well the adrenals are great if you expect only one round of combat and the Reaper has a 40% better chance of IDing a WK - also will ID a Riptide with ease.
A single Flyrant is essentially giving your opponent 'slay the warlord'. Well, yes it is possible. It is possible with double flyrants too. Meh, never understood this.
Lictors and Deathleaper are terrible. They will never get into position or make their points back. You know if they sdo not bring the Mawloc in ( they have many times) that is still okay. They H+R 3D6 and move all over the opponents DZ, they DS without scatter and run into cover with stealth, Flesh hooks are not half bad, the leapers ability to nerf a warlord is great. I'm told they will never survive a game against a good opponent. I must be playing all noobs.
Haruspex is awful. Well may Haruspex has consistently outperformed my exocrine I had in my list. I don't have a better argument for it.
Nids need all the psychic buffs and synapse they can fit in a list. Well, without biomancy my nids are not what they were. Yes, I do like catalyst, paroxysm and psychic scream. I have -wait for it - one in six chance of getting them. As for IB - I field a list that is the least reliant on IB that I can field. I still can bit in the backside but I'm willing to take that chance.
At 1750 I'm missing a Bastion. It is important to have a bastion or skyshield - I grant that. My list is higher risk for higher rewards.
The Reaper and the Leaper
Flyrant, Scytals, Reaper of Obliterax, Sheddershard Beetles
Deathleaper
It isn't fancy. I have a few upgrades but not many. I doubt I will table anything anything. I have to win the war of attrition and be aware of the mission and my objective in each game. I rely heavily on movement and positioning. It is what it is with Nids.
tetrisphreak wrote: Interesting rules blip - the gargoyles score if another scoring unit is in range, but denial units can still prevent them from controlling objectives.
felixcat wrote:Reaper of Obliterax is inferior to LW/BS/Adrenal/Toxin on a flyrant. Well the adrenals are great if you expect only one round of combat and the Reaper has a 40% better chance of IDing a WK - also will ID a Riptide with ease.
Haruspex is awful. Well may Haruspex has consistently outperformed my exocrine I had in my list. I don't have a better argument for it.
the combo is better on walkrants as they can't catch Wraithknights and Fleet is really important. On flyrants I prefer the Reaper myself.
So what does the Haruspex give you that another MC, like a Trygon, can't?
tetrisphreak wrote:Interesting rules blip - the gargoyles score if another scoring unit is in range, but denial units can still prevent them from controlling objectives.
Yeah, that's kinda funny, granted the denial units have to be non-scoring themselves.
tetrisphreak wrote: Interesting rules blip - the gargoyles score if another scoring unit is in range, but denial units can still prevent them from controlling objectives.
Confused
The objective secured rule says gargoyles control objectives even if enemy "scoring" units are in range. Since it specifies only scoring units, denial (non-scoring) units can still prevent the gargoyles from controlling objectives.
It's still a big middle finger to eldar jetbikes who try to steal objectives at the last minute, and the sky swarm rule paired with a lictor or 3 encourages deep striking gargoyle blobs.
It is a beast specialising in crowd control and brute force like the old cc Carnies. A Haruspex will literally eat its way through most infantry, healing as it goes, and if the infantry does manage to hurt the thing, they get punished for it. I can see a use for that. It has only three attacks but these can generate up to three additional three attacks, and the model has a variant of regeneration that kicks in automatically if they wound something. Crushing claws means it does not have to use smash attacks to kill vehicles, and acid blood hurts if something manages to wound it. Finally, it has a tongue attack with precise shot having a respectable S6 AP2. So it is not for ranged dakka at all. It serves a diffrent function but performs its job very well. That aside it is also another MC taking some heat away from your Tervigon which is sometimes essential. Of course, your opponent can ignore it and try to take out the regening Terv and face the consequences.
Skyblight Formation
Flyrant w/Devourers, LW/BS, Toxin
10 Gargoyles x3
Harpy w/HVC Harpy w/HVC Crone
His list was Salamanders...A whirlwind, storm talon, two other tanks (I'm sorry I suck at remembering unit names) sternguard, scout squad. A ton of tactical marines, an Aegis defense line with AA gun, a thunderfire canon.
I played him before with old nids and while I won that game, I dont remember him being douchy or unpleasant. But today was a different story, complaining about rules constantly and when he'd look them up he'd snidely say "If thats how you want to play it."
He'd argue over how many units were under the Mawloc's blast, sarcastically roll his dice on saves he didnt think he should have to take, etc...pretty lame. Turn 4 I pretty much had him crushed and he flipped out that my Mawloc gets a 5+ cover save, which I made on two wounds, and he conceded, angrily packed up and left.
So, does the new formation cause your opponents to freak out? I doubt it because we played Purge the Alien and I basically used the same list I always do + Gargoyles.
Honestly that list seems pretty tame. Maybe your opponent heard the new nids book is a joke so got offended that such an obviously bad book was beating him?
Sarcasm aside, I don't think in your case using GW approved rules for your models should cause anyone to rage quit. It's certainly no worse than taudar which is maligned yet accepted in the same breath.
Skyblight is game changing. My whole list is being overhauled ( I have to proxy a few models now until I'm done) as there are not many codexes that can deal with seven or eight FMCs at 1750 with respawning jump infantry. It is crazy good. I like my Lictor list - don't get me wrong - but skyblight is just so much stronger it cannot be ignored.
jifel wrote: At a GT today, and ive yalked with some other Nid players between rounds... The list currently doing the rounds is:
Dakka Flyrant
Dakka Flyrant
Dakka Flyrant
Crone
Crone
Crone
Crone
Harpy (Venom Cannon)
Harpy (Venom Cannon)
10 gargoyles
10 gargoyles
10 gargoyles
10 gants
10 gants
This is so good I want to cry, and fully possible with the Skyblight Swarm! NINE FMCS!!!!
I daresay that with the new dataslate II, we've jumped up a notch or 2 on the power level. As a matter of fact, some armies may consider us OP now!
BTW, I wouldn't overdo it with the crones. They are good, but they're not that good to the point that I would run 4 of them! Personally, I'd drop 2 to add in 1 mawloc and a bastion+venom+synapse support. Otherwise, the list is way too unbalanced. I'm finding that good support units help the army more than just pure offense (with the exception of the flyrant, who is both a support unit and an offensive one as well).
That's not actually what it says, it says "A unit with this special rule controls Objective Markers even if an enemy scoring unit is within range of the Objective Marker, unless the enemy unit also has this special rule." Only scoring units are required to have "Objective Secured" to contest.
PrinceRaven wrote: That's not actually what it says, it says "A unit with this special rule controls Objective Markers even if an enemy scoring unit is within range of the Objective Marker, unless the enemy unit also has this special rule." Only scoring units are required to have "Objective Secured" to contest.
So, you're inferring that a non-scoring unit can control or contest the objective marker, because the Gargoyles have a special rule?
I'm saying that non-scoring denial units may still contest the objective as the "Objective Secured" special rule only stops scoring units from contesting.
PrinceRaven wrote: I wish I wasn't, uncontestable scoring Gargoyles would have been awesome.
Well... the formation is borderline OP as is. We fought a strong Tau list to a (lucky for them) draw last week with a flying circus; admittedly the Mawloc was great, we held our objective, contested theirs with a Mawloc, and held our third. I am pretty confident with Skyblight that we'd splatter them. Just need to find the ££ for another Harpie and 10 more Gargoyles, and it will be great to field those neglected old Warriors just in case we need to take The Relic. AS well as a powerful list, it should be great fun.
felixcat wrote: Quick question. Assuming you are playing a skyshield with three Flyrants and the four FAFMCS. How would you deploy it and the FMCs?
I'd place it forward of the DZ nearest the biggest portion of objectives. If going first, I'd put crones forward and flyrants ranked behind. If going second I'd try to hide the flyrants and reserve the crones.
I was a fan of the first set of dataslates we got, but these new ones are beyond fantastic. I do like the lists with 9 FMC but I don't have the cash to buy that many and don't own a single gargoyle. I'm actually really stoked about the one with exocrine and biovores. Freeing up more slots in heavy support really works for the armies I like to field. I haven't built any lists out of it yet but I plan to today.
There's a 2K Double-FOC tournament in my neck of the woods (not now, but in the summertime). I can create a truly evil Tyranid army with Double-FOC's and these formations.
Me....I'm a flyrant type of person and this is what I'm thinking.
What I'm digging is Lictors in these flier lists. The reason being is yes, they start out up front infiltrated for the most part, but when you have five FMC's fly ahead of them turn one they get a blind eye turned to them. Plenty of time to intelligently maneuver them into position for the Mawlocs. Given that its about turn 3 when the time is best, starting 1 of them on the board to ensure they come in turn 3 worked great.
Also, yesterday I deep struck a gargoyle brood from this new formation to push even harder with the Lictors. When the brood tied up the marines in combat with blinding, I brought the Mawloc in pinpoint. Sacrificed the remaining brood but annihilated the SM squad, and the gargoyles had a 50% chance of just coming back on the board (They didnt though)
jy2 wrote: There's a 2K Double-FOC tournament in my neck of the woods (not now, but in the summertime). I can create a truly evil Tyranid army with Double-FOC's and these formations.
Me....I'm a flyrant type of person and this is what I'm thinking.
There's a 2K Double-FOC tournament in my neck of the woods (not now, but in the summertime). I can create a truly evil Tyranid army with Double-FOC's and these formations.
Me....I'm a flyrant type of person and this is what I'm thinking.
There's a 2K Double-FOC tournament in my neck of the woods (not now, but in the summertime). I can create a truly evil Tyranid army with Double-FOC's and these formations.
Me....I'm a flyrant type of person and this is what I'm thinking.
BTW, got another game in...against White Scars Space Marines! This is a rematch, only this time, my opponent brought more bikers and more marines! White Scars are the real deal and they are only the 2nd army ever to have beaten my Necrons (at the LVO) since 6th Ed. came out.
I had a game with my Tyranids against John "Zeztuku's" LVO White Scars!
I started Warhammer last year with the old codex and played tournaments as a clueless newbie, learned the game and fought spam quite often.
Then I got dealt a somewhat subpar codex and I've kept on loving the bugs regardless and continued to face Tau and Eldar, even suffering repeated defeats in my own home vs my wife.
Now we get a new slate fielding a few more FMC's that are STILL T5W5 4+ and scoring gargs and people cry foul? I feel no remorse.
Roci wrote: The tourneys I've been to and plan to attend all have formations banned. My local game group as well so none of this will ever hit my table.
Unless the add a supplement I'll be stuck with what is in the dex.
I've had this discussion with many people, and in my opinion, it's a very simple answer... Make formations take up you allied slot. This prevents silly cheese and balances the field for Nids.
Each tournament will have its own ruling with regards to dataslates and formations. Make sure to check with them beforehand.
As for casual play, I am in the camp that you should always ask your opponent if you are doing/bringing something "out of the ordinary" even if it is legal 40K just out of courtesy. If he disagrees, then either you change your list or you two don't play. Personally, I always bring at least 2 variations of these types of lists - a normal one and one with the formation I want to test out. Honestly, a lot of the dataslates/formations do give armies an unfair advantage. Whereas it my even the playing field against Tau/Eldar/Necron or other top armies, it can be OP against other regular mid-tier armies.
jy2 wrote: Each tournament will have its own ruling with regards to dataslates and formations. Make sure to check with them beforehand.
As for casual play, I am in the camp that you should always ask your opponent if you are doing/bringing something "out of the ordinary" even if it is legal 40K just out of courtesy. If he disagrees, then either you change your list or you two don't play. Personally, I always bring at least 2 variations of these types of lists - a normal one and one with the formation I want to test out. Honestly, a lot of the dataslates/formations do give armies an unfair advantage. Whereas it my even the playing field against Tau/Eldar/Necron or other top armies, it can be OP against other regular mid-tier armies.
My counter argument is, jetseer and screamer star or wave serpent spam etc are all OP against other mid tier armies yet they are accepted? I feel like the player base is biased against letting tyranids share the power. I'm crossing fingers that 7th rumors this year are true and they lump these data slates in the core rules to prevent these arguments in the first place.
It really depends on your meta. If where you play (or rather, who you play against) is competitive, then I don't really see any problems with dataslates and formations. Most likely, the meta will most likely not only accept, but probably be running them as well.
But in my area, I will blow out most of my opponents if I run some of these formations and/or the newest GW "toys". My opponents already have enough problems with any of my armies, even with my "normal" tyranids. I can't even really run my tournament builds unless someone wants to test their tournament armies against it. That is why, personally, I always ask my opponents for permission to run some of these newer GW publications.
I have to say that it upsets me off a bit when if I cannot take Be'Lakor when everyone else is fine with beaststars, screamerstars, seer councils, four riptides, etc. etc. I can only imagine what the hoopla will be when people show up with the three Imperial Knight armies. Anything can beaten - as long as we are not playing escalation. There is a guy at the LGS who fields nine hornets and five walkers at 1750. He puts out so much dakka it is ridiculous. But we have all learned to deal with it.
My experience has been that balanced lists will outperform many of the 'star' lists. Torrent of Fire just had a tournament with some of the best players around and the winner was an Iron Hands list using Tigerius as an ally ( for the cents) and the Inquisition dataslate (Coteaz/Inq and some acolytes).
Game 1 - special Relic mission against mech IG. He failed 3/4 of his dangerous terrain tests for his Chimeras turn 1. That's how the rest of the game went. 20-0.
Game 2 - Kill Points vs CSM Slannesh. I overestimated his list and just choked. Coulda, shoulda own but didn't. I took the secondary though. 8-16.
Game 3 - Kill Points vs Wraithwing. Complete domination - 32 wounds out of 36 shots on a wraith squad? Seems good. 20-0
Game 4 - Kill Points vs SM. T1 I flew forward to Warp Lance his Land Raider. He denies. Complete opposite of last game. 5 wounds out of 36 shots? Seems bad. 8-16
Game 5 - Crusade vs Nurgle. He seizes on me and flies 2 princes forward. Each Carnifex squad picks a Prince and removes it. 20-0.
MVPs were the Fexes hands down. Most useless was the Exocrine.
My experience has been that balanced lists will outperform many of the 'star' lists. Torrent of Fire just had a tournament with some of the best players around and the winner was an Iron Hands list using Tigerius as an ally ( for the cents) and the Inquisition dataslate (Coteaz/Inq and some acolytes).
That winning list is actually a deathstar as well, and it's actually particular good at killing psyker deathstars. a 30 IG man blob version of it was used in my area to win a small local tournament a few weeks ago.
Tigurius. Bike CM w Shield. Inquisitor with book. Cotaez and either 30man blob or another bike cm. Incredibly efficient with dealing with assault units, especially psyker ones.
MVPs were the Fexes hands down. Most useless was the Exocrine.
I completely agree. The Exocrine chokes every time, while the dakkafex' always seem to do the dirty work. I stopped bringing the exo in most my lists and just run with 2dakka 1tyranno + biovore, or another tyranno, or another set of fex, or empty. I was skeptical of iNcontrol's list when I saw he brought two Exos to ToF, but who knows, mayhaps he's had better luck with them than we have.
MVPs were the Fexes hands down. Most useless was the Exocrine.
I completely agree. The Exocrine chokes every time, while the dakkafex' always seem to do the dirty work. I stopped bringing the exo in most my lists and just run with 2dakka 1tyranno + biovore, or another tyranno, or another set of fex, or empty. I was skeptical of iNcontrol's list when I saw he brought two in list he brought to ToF, but who knows, mayhaps he's had better luck with them than we have.
Pardon me if this is a silly question - how is this worked out in the list? Is this 2x TL Devourers with Brainleeches and Lashwhip/Bonesword? It can't be, right?
Got out of work today due to weather and finished my two Lictors and my wife's Wraithknight...now depending on our baby's refusal to take a nap or not this afternoon we will start a new batrep.
Game 1 - special Relic mission against mech IG. He failed 3/4 of his dangerous terrain tests for his Chimeras turn 1. That's how the rest of the game went. 20-0.
Game 2 - Kill Points vs CSM Slannesh. I overestimated his list and just choked. Coulda, shoulda own but didn't. I took the secondary though. 8-16.
Game 3 - Kill Points vs Wraithwing. Complete domination - 32 wounds out of 36 shots on a wraith squad? Seems good. 20-0
Game 4 - Kill Points vs SM. T1 I flew forward to Warp Lance his Land Raider. He denies. Complete opposite of last game. 5 wounds out of 36 shots? Seems bad. 8-16
Game 5 - Crusade vs Nurgle. He seizes on me and flies 2 princes forward. Each Carnifex squad picks a Prince and removes it. 20-0.
MVPs were the Fexes hands down. Most useless was the Exocrine.
Congrats! 3 massacres is pretty impressive. Overall, it seems like none of the matchups were too bad and all were definitely within reach of a victory for you.
I really like the dakkafexes as well. Not much in the codex will beat a TMC with 2x/TL-D's in terms of pure efficiency. So far, they have been a mainstay of my Tyranid army for now, with the rest of my Heavies being filled out with either biovores or mawlocs (or 1 of each). I'm really not impressed with the exocrine either. His firepower might appear scary to a select few armies, but his output in terms of efficiency and kill ratio just cannot compare.
Game 1 - special Relic mission against mech IG. He failed 3/4 of his dangerous terrain tests for his Chimeras turn 1. That's how the rest of the game went. 20-0.
Game 2 - Kill Points vs CSM Slannesh. I overestimated his list and just choked. Coulda, shoulda own but didn't. I took the secondary though. 8-16.
Game 3 - Kill Points vs Wraithwing. Complete domination - 32 wounds out of 36 shots on a wraith squad? Seems good. 20-0
Game 4 - Kill Points vs SM. T1 I flew forward to Warp Lance his Land Raider. He denies. Complete opposite of last game. 5 wounds out of 36 shots? Seems bad. 8-16
Game 5 - Crusade vs Nurgle. He seizes on me and flies 2 princes forward. Each Carnifex squad picks a Prince and removes it. 20-0.
MVPs were the Fexes hands down. Most useless was the Exocrine.
Congrats! 3 massacres is pretty impressive. Overall, it seems like none of the matchups were too bad and all were definitely within reach of a victory for you.
I really like the dakkafexes as well. Not much in the codex will beat a TMC with 2x/TL-D's in terms of pure efficiency. So far, they have been a mainstay of my Tyranid army for now, with the rest of my Heavies being filled out with either biovores or mawlocs (or 1 of each). I'm really not impressed with the exocrine either. His firepower might appear scary to a select few armies, but his output in terms of efficiency and kill ratio just cannot compare.
Which is why I am a big fan of the new Living Artillery Node, I can have my Biovores, extra synapse and that nice Ap2 cushion without taking up slots for my Fexes and Mawlocs.
Which is why I am a big fan of the new Living Artillery Node, I can have my Biovores, extra synapse and that nice Ap2 cushion without taking up slots for my Fexes and Mawlocs.
The Live Artillery Node is something that I will definitely try out myself. It's good and not too overpowering (at least for my meta).
However, the problem here is not really the FOC slots, but rather, the limited number of points in your army to build a list like this. As long as you are willing to give up on the flyers - the hive crones and harpies - then I suppose this type of list is doable at 1750. And when I say doable, I mean to still be able to make a TAC Tyranid list.
jy2 wrote: Congrats! 3 massacres is pretty impressive. Overall, it seems like none of the matchups were too bad and all were definitely within reach of a victory for you.
Thanks. Yeah, the CSM fight was against the eventual Best Overall (BP, sports, paint) so he was a good general that just capitalized me fumbling over myself and giving away first turn with my Flyrants starting on the board.
I also shoulda won that CM game, but the dice denied. :-/
I really like the dakkafexes as well. Not much in the codex will beat a TMC with 2x/TL-D's in terms of pure efficiency. So far, they have been a mainstay of my Tyranid army for now, with the rest of my Heavies being filled out with either biovores or mawlocs (or 1 of each). I'm really not impressed with the exocrine either. His firepower might appear scary to a select few armies, but his output in terms of efficiency and kill ratio just cannot compare.
I'm probably going to drop the Exocrine for a Harpy.
jy2 wrote: Congrats! 3 massacres is pretty impressive. Overall, it seems like none of the matchups were too bad and all were definitely within reach of a victory for you.
Thanks. Yeah, the CSM fight was against the eventual Best Overall (BP, sports, paint) so he was a good general that just capitalized me fumbling over myself and giving away first turn with my Flyrants starting on the board.
I also shoulda won that CM game, but the dice denied. :-/
I really like the dakkafexes as well. Not much in the codex will beat a TMC with 2x/TL-D's in terms of pure efficiency. So far, they have been a mainstay of my Tyranid army for now, with the rest of my Heavies being filled out with either biovores or mawlocs (or 1 of each). I'm really not impressed with the exocrine either. His firepower might appear scary to a select few armies, but his output in terms of efficiency and kill ratio just cannot compare.
I'm probably going to drop the Exocrine for a Harpy.
You mean this opponent?
Yeah, he's got his experiences up in the Battle Reports forum.
BTW, go for a Hive Crone instead if you've got the points.
Yeah, those are my unfinished fexes...
Color me embarrassed. I misremembered the date and thought I had 2 more weeks to get them painted and ready.
I used the Large Blast a couple times and glanced some Chimeras, but most of the time firing 6 shots and hitting 3 or 4 was as good or better.
edit: And I feel like the Crone is a trap. I'll playtest both for a while I'm sure, but it just feel less useful. The STR8 VS is good... but TLHVCs or Stranglethorns...
Wakshaani wrote: For the Exocrine users, I' m curious if you're sticking with the 6-gun or if you're firing off the large blast? I'm going to think the latter, but...
I alternate, but you're tactics with an exocrine are definitely different when you're consistently laying the Swarmlord's buffs into him.
Which is why I am a big fan of the new Living Artillery Node, I can have my Biovores, extra synapse and that nice Ap2 cushion without taking up slots for my Fexes and Mawlocs.
The Live Artillery Node is something that I will definitely try out myself. It's good and not too overpowering (at least for my meta).
However, the problem here is not really the FOC slots, but rather, the limited number of points in your army to build a list like this. As long as you are willing to give up on the flyers - the hive crones and harpies - then I suppose this type of list is doable at 1750. And when I say doable, I mean to still be able to make a TAC Tyranid list.
Yeah it shouldn't be such an issue in my area as 90% of my games are at least 2k and probably 60% of those are 3k
Its turn 1, I had to go second, and already her Wraithknight has ID'ed my crone for 1st blood and a scouring point. Lost a Gargoyle unit as well, but I regen'ed them (running Skyblight formation)
I can only wonder how many FMC's will die turn 2, our daughter decided one turn was enough fun for mom and dad today so the game is on hold.
Its turn 1, I had to go second, and already her Wraithknight has ID'ed my crone for 1st blood and a scouring point. Lost a Gargoyle unit as well, but I regen'ed them (running Skyblight formation)
I can only wonder how many FMC's will die turn 2, our daughter decided one turn was enough fun for mom and dad today so the game is on hold.
Reserving your FMCs might have been the wiser choice if going 2nd vs a wraith knight
A huge part of that problem on our board is lack of truly LOS terrain. At the end of the day, Im glad the Crone took the shot rather than a tyrant (She had rolled 6's), but ugh.
