Iechine wrote:
A huge part of that problem on our board is lack of truly LOS terrain. At the end of the day, Im glad the Crone took the shot rather than a tyrant (She had rolled 6's), but ugh.

An excuse to get terrain building then!

Had 1 game yesterday with the new list.... we are Tier 1 ladies and gentleman...

I played:
3 Flyrants
4 Hive Crones
2 Harpyes
15/10/10 Gargoyles
10/10 gaunts
3 Venomthorpes
2x Vengance weapon batteries with F8/fp3 large blast (av 14 fortifications that give you nice cover saves at the beguining of the game, force oponnet to deploy and move in a non optimal way and SOMETIMES kill hundred of Meq´s)

My oponent was playing his usual Necron list with Wraiths, necron lord destructor, night scithes with warriors and cripteks, 3 anihilation barges etc... a tournament winning list but Tyranids just tabled him by turn 4.... and the best of it, the guy is a pretty experienced player with this army, have used it for years and still the only thing he could kill was 23 gargoyles witch came all back, ans some wounds to flyrants and Crones witch did killed any of them.

3 Venomthorpes are the key of the army again..... giving 2+ cover save to my FMC behind the fortifications and ruins in turn 1 and giving 3+/2+ on the next turns as flyers move from 1 venom to another while shooting to the enemy.

If the oponent try to focus Venomthorpes they get tabled by the rest FMC, if they try to focus the Flyrant for sypnapse killing they discover that a 2+ cover save is too much for them... and they can fly out in case of 3 wounds

I think we are very close to what I think will be a metagame changer. Btw, about the vengance weapons... could some of you prop layers test them, im really in love with them but it seems im the only 1 using them...

Sandokann wrote:
Had 1 game yesterday with the new list.... we are Tier 1 ladies and gentleman...

I played:
3 Flyrants
4 Hive Crones
2 Harpyes
15/10/10 Gargoyles
10/10 gaunts
3 Venomthorpes
2x Vengance weapon batteries with F8/fp3 large blast (av 14 fortifications that give you nice cover saves at the beguining of the game, force oponnet to deploy and move in a non optimal way and SOMETIMES kill hundred of Meq´s)

My oponent was playing his usual Necron list with Wraiths, necron lord destructor, night scithes with warriors and cripteks, 3 anihilation barges etc... a tournament winning list but Tyranids just tabled him by turn 4.... and the best of it, the guy is a pretty experienced player with this army, have used it for years and still the only thing he could kill was 23 gargoyles witch came all back, ans some wounds to flyrants and Crones witch did killed any of them.

3 Venomthorpes are the key of the army again..... giving 2+ cover save to my FMC behind the fortifications and ruins in turn 1 and giving 3+/2+ on the next turns as flyers move from 1 venom to another while shooting to the enemy.

If the oponent try to focus Venomthorpes they get tabled by the rest FMC, if they try to focus the Flyrant for sypnapse killing they discover that a 2+ cover save is too much for them... and they can fly out in case of 3 wounds

I think we are very close to what I think will be a metagame changer. Btw, about the vengance weapons... could some of you prop layers test them, im really in love with them but it seems im the only 1 using them...

Looks strong. How many points is that anyways? 2K?

Sorry, but not familiar with the Vengeance batteries.

 jy2 wrote:
Sorry, but not familiar with the Vengeance batteries.

Cheap, squadable, AV value, super turrets. You have a battle cannon, punisher cannon, and...Icarus? Not half bad, considering how cheap they are.

3 hive crones for 2000 points instead of 4. The vengance weapon Bateries are av14 fortifications like the bastion, so behind it you get the +4 cover save witch gets to 2+ with the Venoms. Also it fires with ws 2 to the nearest target till a max range of 36´´ F8/fp3 large blast. They go for 75 points each and a single fortification slot in the army can be filled by 2 of them. Also rules are pre- stronhold assault expansion and are 40k aproved so you can use them even in tournaments without that book. I use them no really because the damage they may deal but because the hight disturbance they provoque in enemy deploiment and movements.
And as we all know 1 av14 fortification is hard as hell to take down so imagine 2 of them with 8 FMC flapflaping arround...... SO far in the last games Ive played this nice weapons have made my oponent to deploy their thought units (LR, AV13 vehicles or Inv save +2 AKA armor guys in front or them in the open)
That mean lot of nice things for my Hive crones and in general for tyranid shoot saturation.
Also while they are up the enemy will have his movement cripled as the fear factor make them play conservative and thats like autolosing vs Tyranid flying circus. If they decide to charge foward and target the fortifications they really made my day as I will be vector striking from turn 1 .
Please test them

Eldercaveman wrote:

 Iechine wrote:
A huge part of that problem on our board is lack of truly LOS terrain. At the end of the day, Im glad the Crone took the shot rather than a tyrant (She had rolled 6's), but ugh.

An excuse to get terrain building then!

Yea...we're moving soon and I want to get one of those megamats but they arent on sale for a few months. Once we get a new map Ill get to work on nicer terrain.

Add a void shield generator and laugh turn one.

So, looking back at this, I find some things highly amusing. Towards the start of our release, we were considered down and out. Heck, we all heard the hordes saying they were done; selling their armies and moving on. Now look at us. These formations shake up the meta quite a bit. So, the question stands, regardless of how we got these abilities, anyone still regretting playing the greatest threat to the galaxy at large?

Meh. Since I can't use dataslates really they haven't had any affect on me - but I was never down and out about the codex from day one either.

I'm with rig on this one. Its nice to see some folks getting use out of them but unless things change, I won't be seeing any formation use from my side.

Not that it matters, because even with the other restrictions in the group they still can't beat me.

Honestly, i do not get the dataslate restrictions. If you can use grimoire, if you ally Tau with Eldar or SM ...well. You see supplements used regularly. FW is in so many lists. You already have OP units in the game. Let me level the field. And now Imperial Knights are a codex - not a supplement not a dataslate.

Allow Stronghold. Allow dataslates. The only thing i would ban in regular 40k is ranged D weapons. Give me the tools to fight deathstars.

You have the tools to fight deathstars now.

The only thing that's hard to fight is Knights. And really, you just have to accept that you trade 2-400 points to kill a Knight.

 felixcat wrote:

Honestly, i do not get the dataslate restrictions. If you can use grimoire, if you ally Tau with Eldar or SM ...well. You see supplements used regularly. FW is in so many lists. You already have OP units in the game. Let me level the field. And now Imperial Knights are a codex - not a supplement not a dataslate.

Allow Stronghold. Allow dataslates. The only thing i would ban in regular 40k is ranged D weapons. Give me the tools to fight deathstars.

Agreed, every store I have ever been to allows everything in the game but changes two things. Strength D is S10 AP1, and Grimoire is 2+ then 4+

I'll give the group here credit from the standpoint that its not just dataslate hate. Its Hate for anything that isn't fluffy. 1 flyer per 1k points, no SHA, No Escalation... No unit spamming.. Inquisition takes up allies foc etc etc.

Most of the reason why it doesn't bother me to much, because without that stuff they can't beat my normal lists.

While I get all the excitement about Skyblight, I don't own many FMCs and don't feel like buying or painting anymore just for the new FoTM list. So I'd like to look at options for ground-based lists using other formations. Here's a first draft based on Endless Swarm:

1850 pts

----- HQ -------------------------------
1. Hive Tyrant* (245pts)
- 1x Hive Tyrant
- 2x Devourer with Brainleech Worms - Twin-linked
- 1x Tyrant Guard

----- Troop ----------------------------
1. Tyranid Warrior Brood* (110pts)
- 3x Tyranid Warrior
- 1x Barbed Strangler, 2x Deathspitter
2. Termagant Brood (40pts)
- 10x Termagant

----- Elite ----------------------------
1. Venomthrope Brood (45pts)
- 1x Venomthrope
2. Venomthrope Brood (45pts)
- 1x Venomthrope
3. Venomthrope Brood (45pts)
- 1x Venomthrope

----- Heavy Support --------------------
1. Trygon Prime* (230pts)
- 1x Trygon Prime
2. Trygon Prime* (230pts)
- 1x Trygon Prime
3. Trygon Prime* (230pts)
- 1x Trygon Prime

----- Endless Swarm --------------------
1. Tyranid Warrior Brood* (110pts)
- 3x Tyranid Warrior
- 1x Barbed Strangler, 2x Deathspitter
2. Hormaguant Brood (105pts)
- 15x Hormaguant
- 15x Adrenal Glands
3. Hormaguant Brood (105pts)
- 15x Hormaguant
- 15x Adrenal Glands
4. Hormaguant Brood (70pts)
- 14x Hormaguant
5. Termagant Brood (120pts)
- 20x Termagant
- 10x Devourer
6. Termagant Brood (120pts)
- 20x Termagant
- 10x Devourer

That's over 100 infantry, most of can respawn within the enemy deployment zone and will start under a decent cover save. It has a pretty solid Synapse contingent also, with 4 MCs and 6 Warriors able to hold the reigns.

My thinking is like so:

The Venomthropes are pretty disposable, only intended to reduce turn 1/2 losses somewhat. Keeping them in smaller units makes it easier to completely obscure them from LoS.

Warrior Barbed Stranglers can try to pin things if possible.

Trygons emerge on turn 2/3 near objectives, leaving their tunnels available for reinforcement swarms to contest them later. Since they have Fleet and will be arriving in the enemy deployment zone, they should be in combat on turn 3/4 pretty easily.

Two broods of Hormas have AG to help deal with AV10, in the absence of meatier ranged weaponry.

The main weakness is obviously going to be flyers, only the Tyrant can really do damage to them. But I am hoping that the volume of bodies on the table will make it really hard for flyers to move as they like. It should be possible to leave certain spaces open for them, luring them them into side/rear armour attacks by S5 Warriors/Trygons or Devourers.

I'm just trying Skyblight Swarm in Vassal... against an opponent that spammed canoptek scarabs.
I already feel guilty for all the S6 I have.

rigeld2 wrote:
Meh. Since I can't use dataslates really they haven't had any affect on me - but I was never down and out about the codex from day one either.

Im thinking that might be changing. LVO and BAO are both going to allow them going forward. The only change is that they are going to count as your allied detachment. Works out great for Nids and keeps some pretty awful shenanigans from being exploited.

 xttz wrote:
While I get all the excitement about Skyblight, I don't own many FMCs and don't feel like buying or painting anymore just for the new FoTM list. So I'd like to look at options for ground-based lists using other formations. Here's a first draft based on Endless Swarm:

1850 pts

----- HQ -------------------------------
1. Hive Tyrant* (245pts)
- 1x Hive Tyrant
- 2x Devourer with Brainleech Worms - Twin-linked
- 1x Tyrant Guard

----- Troop ----------------------------
1. Tyranid Warrior Brood* (110pts)
- 3x Tyranid Warrior
- 1x Barbed Strangler, 2x Deathspitter
2. Termagant Brood (40pts)
- 10x Termagant

----- Elite ----------------------------
1. Venomthrope Brood (45pts)
- 1x Venomthrope
2. Venomthrope Brood (45pts)
- 1x Venomthrope
3. Venomthrope Brood (45pts)
- 1x Venomthrope

----- Heavy Support --------------------
1. Trygon Prime* (230pts)
- 1x Trygon Prime
2. Trygon Prime* (230pts)
- 1x Trygon Prime
3. Trygon Prime* (230pts)
- 1x Trygon Prime

----- Endless Swarm --------------------
1. Tyranid Warrior Brood* (110pts)
- 3x Tyranid Warrior
- 1x Barbed Strangler, 2x Deathspitter
2. Hormaguant Brood (105pts)
- 15x Hormaguant
- 15x Adrenal Glands
3. Hormaguant Brood (105pts)
- 15x Hormaguant
- 15x Adrenal Glands
4. Hormaguant Brood (70pts)
- 14x Hormaguant
5. Termagant Brood (120pts)
- 20x Termagant
- 10x Devourer
6. Termagant Brood (120pts)
- 20x Termagant
- 10x Devourer

That's over 100 infantry, most of can respawn within the enemy deployment zone and will start under a decent cover save. It has a pretty solid Synapse contingent also, with 4 MCs and 6 Warriors able to hold the reigns.

My thinking is like so:

The Venomthropes are pretty disposable, only intended to reduce turn 1/2 losses somewhat. Keeping them in smaller units makes it easier to completely obscure them from LoS.

Warrior Barbed Stranglers can try to pin things if possible.

Trygons emerge on turn 2/3 near objectives, leaving their tunnels available for reinforcement swarms to contest them later. Since they have Fleet and will be arriving in the enemy deployment zone, they should be in combat on turn 3/4 pretty easily.

Two broods of Hormas have AG to help deal with AV10, in the absence of meatier ranged weaponry.

The main weakness is obviously going to be flyers, only the Tyrant can really do damage to them. But I am hoping that the volume of bodies on the table will make it really hard for flyers to move as they like. It should be possible to leave certain spaces open for them, luring them them into side/rear armour attacks by S5 Warriors/Trygons or Devourers.

Looks nice, the only thing I'd do differant is use Toxin Sacks instead of Adrenal...more of a flavor choice than a play change...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

85chadillac wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Meh. Since I can't use dataslates really they haven't had any affect on me - but I was never down and out about the codex from day one either.

Im thinking that might be changing. LVO and BAO are both going to allow them going forward. The only change is that they are going to count as your allied detachment. Works out great for Nids and keeps some pretty awful shenanigans from being exploited.

Sounds like a rational solution. I haven't had much luck with Multi-Formation lists anyways. And it lets Nids have an "Allies" slot.

85chadillac wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Meh. Since I can't use dataslates really they haven't had any affect on me - but I was never down and out about the codex from day one either.

Im thinking that might be changing. LVO and BAO are both going to allow them going forward. The only change is that they are going to count as your allied detachment. Works out great for Nids and keeps some pretty awful shenanigans from being exploited.

Maybe. We'll see.

Even then I'd need a Nidzilla one to make me happy. :-)

85chadillac wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Meh. Since I can't use dataslates really they haven't had any affect on me - but I was never down and out about the codex from day one either.

Im thinking that might be changing. LVO and BAO are both going to allow them going forward. The only change is that they are going to count as your allied detachment. Works out great for Nids and keeps some pretty awful shenanigans from being exploited.

Just wait - 7th ed will have them in the BRB.

Here is my "current" version of "Endless Tunnel Assault" I came up with while eating breakfast...


HQ: Winged asassain: Wings, LW/BS, Toxic, Thorax swarm, Brain leeches 255 (usually Warlord, I play this guy conservitive and reactive, so he tends to stay alive)
Winged Dakka'rant 230

Warriors (x3): Rending claws x2, Deathspitters x2, Cannon 120
Warriors: as above 120

Trygon Prime 230
Trygon Prime 230
Mawloc 140

1325 points...

Endless Swarm:
Hormigants x 15, (x3) 225
Spinegaunts x 15, (x3) 180 (Apparently the US version is "not right", and it should be 3x here. I disagree, because the Formation had exactly 6 troops, and now has 7, and that strikes me as something somebody with no knowlage of the Codex would do, thinking Warriors are Elites....)
Warriors: see above 120

Total: 525 525+1325=1850 7 Synapse, 2 FMC, 2 Big Wormeys, 1 Mawloc (5 MC's of all types) 9 Troops, 6 of which can pop back to life (4+) and two tunnels for assaulting... a fair challenge at 1850 I think...

Almost no upgrades, other than the Winged Asassain...but a Winnable force to my eye...

Number of "troops" slots has no bearing on the formation - sky blight has 6 FA and artillery node has 4 heavy - deathleaoer assassin brood has 5x elites...

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Number of "troops" slots has no bearing on the formation - sky blight has 6 FA and artillery node has 4 heavy - deathleaoer assassin brood has 5x elites...

You'll notice I did go ahead and change it...

pinecone77 wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Number of "troops" slots has no bearing on the formation - sky blight has 6 FA and artillery node has 4 heavy - deathleaoer assassin brood has 5x elites...

You'll notice I did go ahead and change it...

Yes but i was commenting on the "whoever wrote it has no idea about how the codex works" comment -- making it 3 and 3 units of gants/gaunts makes sense in that the number of broods is equal. In essence it is very similar to how the endless swarm formation for apocalypse is set up - just with different rules to make it work better for standard 40K.


I think more than anything these formations (including the vanguard ones if you like genestealers) allow for tyranid players to easily field 6-12 scoring units in a standard FOC. That much board control is huge vs armies like Tau and Eldar, that excel at killing a single target or two per turn -- if we can present more threats than the enemy has answers for, and half of the ones they kill come back to wreak more havoc, we can overwhelm and overpower them with swarm elements just like in the stories. Hooray!

 tetrisphreak wrote:

pinecone77 wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Number of "troops" slots has no bearing on the formation - sky blight has 6 FA and artillery node has 4 heavy - deathleaoer assassin brood has 5x elites...

You'll notice I did go ahead and change it...

Yes but i was commenting on the "whoever wrote it has no idea about how the codex works" comment -- making it 3 and 3 units of gants/gaunts makes sense in that the number of broods is equal. In essence it is very similar to how the endless swarm formation for apocalypse is set up - just with different rules to make it work better for standard 40K.


I think more than anything these formations (including the vanguard ones if you like genestealers) allow for tyranid players to easily field 6-12 scoring units in a standard FOC. That much board control is huge vs armies like Tau and Eldar, that excel at killing a single target or two per turn -- if we can present more threats than the enemy has answers for, and half of the ones they kill come back to wreak more havoc, we can overwhelm and overpower them with swarm elements just like in the stories. Hooray!

Yes I have really taken to the "Endless Swarm"....but the "Skyblight" seems to be more popular. For me the "issue" is I'd have to buy and paint a boatload of new fig....and the base expense is so heavy that the formation, basicly Is the whole army.

I haven't had a chance to try out this concept yet (health issues) but I am looking foward to giving it a try, like you say its a winnable force that lives in "fluffyville"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
First try at a "At least you'll get to fight in the shade" Force

HQ:Winged Dakka'rant 230
HQ:Winged Dakka'rant 230

Troops Genestealers x5 Toxic, Brood Lord 145
Troops: Genestealers x5, Toxic 85

FA: Crone
FA: Crone 155 per?
FA: Crone

Sky Blight Formation
Hive Tyrant as above 230
Harpy, x2 170
Crone 155?
Gargoyles x10, (x3) 180

835 for Formation, 1265 for base army = 1990, spent 10 points on a upgrade 2000

Game upstairs is still heated.

My LW/BS Tyrant instakilled her Riptide, but was itself instakilled her turn 3 by the knight. My Reaper flyrant got locked in with her Crisis Commander team but missed 4 out of 5 strikes. He's down to one wound as is the Crisis Commander.

My Lictor was captain badass and assaulted a Wave serpent getting 2 pens and a glance, not to mention he brought in a Mawloc on top of a Dire Avenger blob.

 Iechine wrote:
Game upstairs is still heated.

My LW/BS Tyrant instakilled her Riptide, but was itself instakilled her turn 3 by the knight. My Reaper flyrant got locked in with her Crisis Commander team but missed 4 out of 5 strikes. He's down to one wound as is the Crisis Commander.

My Lictor was captain badass and assaulted a Wave serpent getting 2 pens and a glance, not to mention he brought in a Mawloc on top of a Dire Avenger blob.

Sounds like an amazing back and forth exchange. Why not target the wraith knight in melee with the instant death flyrant?

That was the plan, proximity was the issue. I do have 5 warriors with rending claws and a LW/BS within 6 inches to charge the knight, and really they have no choice but to try. I could get lucky and ID it, or at least tie it up. We stopped playing when the kid woke up.

pinecone77 wrote:
First try at a "At least you'll get to fight in the shade" Force

HQ:Winged Dakka'rant 230
HQ:Winged Dakka'rant 230

Troops Genestealers x5 Toxic, Brood Lord 145
Troops: Genestealers x5, Toxic 85

FA: Crone
FA: Crone 155 per?
FA: Crone

Sky Blight Formation
Hive Tyrant as above 230
Harpy, x2 170
Crone 155?
Gargoyles x10, (x3) 180

835 for Formation, 1265 for base army = 1990, spent 10 points on a upgrade 2000

With how fragile your stealers are, you absolutely should not kit them out for an offensive role. That just encourages you to play aggressively with them...and to get them killed. I'd drop the broodlord and toxic upgrades.

In turn, get another unit of troops or a bastion instead. You can do a lot of shenanigans with infiltrating genestealers and the bastion.

 Iechine wrote:
Game upstairs is still heated.

My LW/BS Tyrant instakilled her Riptide, but was itself instakilled her turn 3 by the knight. My Reaper flyrant got locked in with her Crisis Commander team but missed 4 out of 5 strikes. He's down to one wound as is the Crisis Commander.

My Lictor was captain badass and assaulted a Wave serpent getting 2 pens and a glance, not to mention he brought in a Mawloc on top of a Dire Avenger blob.

Let me ask you....if you beat your wife in 40K, does she beat you in real life.

 xttz wrote:

1850 pts

----- HQ -------------------------------
1. Hive Tyrant* (245pts)
- 1x Hive Tyrant
- 2x Devourer with Brainleech Worms - Twin-linked
- 1x Tyrant Guard

----- Troop ----------------------------
1. Tyranid Warrior Brood* (110pts)
- 3x Tyranid Warrior
- 1x Barbed Strangler, 2x Deathspitter
2. Termagant Brood (40pts)
- 10x Termagant

----- Elite ----------------------------
1. Venomthrope Brood (45pts)
- 1x Venomthrope
2. Venomthrope Brood (45pts)
- 1x Venomthrope
3. Venomthrope Brood (45pts)
- 1x Venomthrope

----- Heavy Support --------------------
1. Trygon Prime* (230pts)
- 1x Trygon Prime
2. Trygon Prime* (230pts)
- 1x Trygon Prime
3. Trygon Prime* (230pts)
- 1x Trygon Prime

----- Endless Swarm --------------------
1. Tyranid Warrior Brood* (110pts)
- 3x Tyranid Warrior
- 1x Barbed Strangler, 2x Deathspitter
2. Hormaguant Brood (105pts)
- 15x Hormaguant
- 15x Adrenal Glands
3. Hormaguant Brood (105pts)
- 15x Hormaguant
- 15x Adrenal Glands
4. Hormaguant Brood (70pts)
- 14x Hormaguant
5. Termagant Brood (120pts)
- 20x Termagant
- 10x Devourer
6. Termagant Brood (120pts)
- 20x Termagant
- 10x Devourer

That's way too many trygon primes. Have you no flyrants? I'd recommend the following:

1. Change out your walkrant for a flyrant.

2. Swap out 1 tryon prime for another flyrant.

3. Personally, I'd swap out the tyranid warriors for 10 gants and a zoan or venom. Then drop a coupld more stuff to get a bastion as well. Now you can put either the zoan, venom or unit of 3 warriors into the bastion.

 jy2 wrote:

Let me ask you....if you beat your wife in 40K, does she beat you in real life.

My wife is a fiery angry thing when it comes to competition so if I ever win believe me its amidst a lot of turmoil and personal cost.

 Iechine wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

Let me ask you....if you beat your wife in 40K, does she beat you in real life.

My wife is a fiery angry thing when it comes to competition so if I ever win believe me its amidst a lot of turmoil and personal cost.

Ahhh....nothing more scary than She-Who-Must-Be-Obeyed.

Methinks she may be a Hive Tyrant in disguise.

 Iechine wrote:
Game upstairs is still heated.

My LW/BS Tyrant instakilled her Riptide, but was itself instakilled her turn 3 by the knight. My Reaper flyrant got locked in with her Crisis Commander team but missed 4 out of 5 strikes. He's down to one wound as is the Crisis Commander.

My Lictor was captain badass and assaulted a Wave serpent getting 2 pens and a glance, not to mention he brought in a Mawloc on top of a Dire Avenger blob.

I'm really starting to love Lictors...

The question is how he managed to assault the Wave Serpent at all, did she forget to move it or did he manage to pull off a 12" charge?

Sounds good, I was going with Stealers so I could Outflank them and keep them out of sight for a while. I don't have a bastion...so I'll likely go with a small group of stealers and a respectable blob of Spinegaunts (those I have plenty of...)

Stealers x8 = 120
Spinegaunts x15 = 60

That should take up that last 10 points I had left over...

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The question is how he managed to assault the Wave Serpent at all, did she forget to move it or did he manage to pull off a 12" charge?

a single lictor can easily infiltrate 12" if it hides from LOS. Then it's just a 6" move and 6" charge with fleet.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The question is how he managed to assault the Wave Serpent at all, did she forget to move it or did he manage to pull off a 12" charge?

a single lictor can easily infiltrate 12" if it hides from LOS. Then it's just a 6" move and 6" charge with fleet.

Well with LoS blocking you probably have to move at least an inch or two to get out from behind the LoS blocker if it was impassable.

Still, it's probably a fleet 8" charge or so.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The question is how he managed to assault the Wave Serpent at all, did she forget to move it or did he manage to pull off a 12" charge?

a single lictor can easily infiltrate 12" if it hides from LOS. Then it's just a 6" move and 6" charge with fleet.

Except you have to deploy them in terrain if you want them to survive, so that's not a guaranteed 6" move, and you have to wait until the next turn to charge, allowing your opponent to move away from you. Wave Serpents are Fast Skimmers, so they can move 18" a turn, so even if you deployed less than 2" away from them and got a 6" move, and they pivoted so that their hull was 2" closer to you after the move, you'd need a 12" charge to catch a Wave Serpent with a Lictor.

My LW/BS Tyrant instakilled her Riptide, but was itself instakilled her turn 3 by the knight. My Reaper flyrant got locked in with her Crisis Commander team but missed 4 out of 5 strikes. He's down to one wound as is the Crisis Commander.

You want the Reaper Tyrant assaulting the WK always and the LW/BS to go against the Commander. My ReaperRant in mu skyblight list ( becuase i have three flyrants - two dakkarants) can often be my MVP. Mine is excruciatingly expensive though.

Flyrant, Reaper of Obliterax, Miasma Cannon, Shreddershard Beetles 280

This is the dual template flyrant that is circulating with skyblight because you have plenty of dakka from the other two flyrants, crones and harpies. The Reaper is strictly better against WKs - 40% more likely to ID it. That is the only real reason to take one over the LW/BS toxin/adrenal rant. I just posted my most recent outing with skyblight here.

http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/45878/testing-newest-formation-pretty?page=5

Middle of the page with a few inaccuracies because I was not taking pics.

 jy2 wrote:

 Iechine wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

Let me ask you....if you beat your wife in 40K, does she beat you in real life.

My wife is a fiery angry thing when it comes to competition so if I ever win believe me its amidst a lot of turmoil and personal cost.

Ahhh....nothing more scary than She-Who-Must-Be-Obeyed.

Methinks she may be a Hive Tyrant in disguise.

I would say a Dominatrix

Speneticus wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

 Iechine wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

Let me ask you....if you beat your wife in 40K, does she beat you in real life.

My wife is a fiery angry thing when it comes to competition so if I ever win believe me its amidst a lot of turmoil and personal cost.

Ahhh....nothing more scary than She-Who-Must-Be-Obeyed.

Methinks she may be a Hive Tyrant in disguise.

I would say a Dominatrix

Your both wrong. She's clearly a Norn Queen. Remember, shes got the kid to prove it. Which makes Lechine one of the few Norn Kings in existence.

All I will say is that I am not happy that I found another way for gaunts to die tonight. Turns out I had been playing the IB rules wrong for units in fortifications.

I missed that how we now have to take IB checks in buildings now. Its not bad enough that horms get hungry without mommy. No. Our termigaunts have to go all Emo and jump off the top of bastions to their doom or (possibly) start screaming "game over man!" Before shooting themselves with their fleshborer...

Way to forge a narrative!

Units embarked in buildings automatically pass leadership tests.

That is not a rule that exists.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Units embarked in buildings automatically pass leadership tests.

No they don't. They gain Fearless. IB is a test that uses leadership, not a Morale check. The rules for IB say when you have to check and when you don't. Being embarked in a fortification doesn't make you exempt (per IB rules). If you are saying that auto pass IB then psykers autopass PotW when embarked as well.

So if you roll a 1-3 for IB with a IB:Lurk unit then they break per IB, not per failing a morale check. They also have to move the required distance as IB says they have to make a Fall Back move just as if they had failed a morale check.

If someone can show me the rules around this I would love to see them so I can reference them if they come up again.

 Gloomfang wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Units embarked in buildings automatically pass leadership tests.

No they don't. They gain Fearless. IB is a test that uses leadership, not a Morale check. The rules for IB say when you have to check and when you don't. Being embarked in a fortification doesn't make you exempt (per IB rules). If you are saying that auto pass IB then psykers autopass PotW when embarked as well.

So if you roll a 1-3 for IB with a IB:Lurk unit then they break per IB, not per failing a morale check. They also have to move the required distance as IB says they have to make a Fall Back move just as if they had failed a morale check.

If someone can show me the rules around this I would love to see them so I can reference them if they come up again.

In the 5th Edition Tyranid FAQ it stated that Tyranids embarked in a building did not have to check for IB, however it no longer exist so now you do have to check until the new FAQ fixes it once again.

I have a question... in my local group there are a lot of BA users and they often bring a furioso dreadnought....
the rule says it keeps attacking if he keeps wounding...

the question is: when he charges a 30x gaunts he usually kills those that are 2" from him.... can he go on killing those that were not partecipating in the fight rolling untill he stops wounding or after he has removed all those involved in that round he has to wait me to consolidate first?

badula wrote:
I have a question... in my local group there are a lot of BA users and they often bring a furioso dreadnought....
the rule says it keeps attacking if he keeps wounding...

the question is: when he charges a 30x gaunts he usually kills those that are 2" from him.... can he go on killing those that were not partecipating in the fight rolling untill he stops wounding or after he has removed all those involved in that round he has to wait me to consolidate first?

Don't let it happen. A 30 strong gant squad with mixed weapons is going to cost a lot more than the dread. Use FMCs to fly over and shoot it from behind or get a tervigon with haywire template to step in front of the gants and kill it for them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The question is how he managed to assault the Wave Serpent at all, did she forget to move it or did he manage to pull off a 12" charge?

Agree. Only if already immobilised or you've 5 on the table and the wave serpent has to end up in range of at least one of them. I just don't see lictors killing fast vehicles unless the opponent makes a mistake and they're such east first blood fodder for them not to shoot at - especially cover ignoring units like ... waveserpents.

 jy2 wrote:

 xttz wrote:

1850 pts

That's way too many trygon primes. Have you no flyrants? I'd recommend the following:

1. Change out your walkrant for a flyrant.

2. Swap out 1 tryon prime for another flyrant.

3. Personally, I'd swap out the tyranid warriors for 10 gants and a zoan or venom. Then drop a coupld more stuff to get a bastion as well. Now you can put either the zoan, venom or unit of 3 warriors into the bastion.

The first line of my post said I'm trying to avoid a FMC-based build and stick to ground units. I do have 1 Flyrant, but I'm specifically trying to avoid using it. Plus, a single FMC isn't all that hard to bring down, they're mostly strong in numbers.

I'm concerned that if I drop any Warriors that's less Synapse, which could really be an issue by the late-game. Zoanthropes aren't hard to pick out.

I could drop a Trygon for another Walkrant, or even the Swarmlord. The latter would add reserve bonuses to bring the Primes on quicker, better psychics and his free PE buff. Not sure if he'd even reach the other side of the table, though. Rolling Catalyst on one of the HQ's (letting me give FNP to both) would be a huge benefit.

What about a Aegis/Bastion with a Comms Relay? That plus a Walkrant is cheaper than the Swarmlord for something arguably more useful.

This may be better:

New List: 1848 pts

----- HQ -------------------------------
1. Hive Tyrant* (245pts)
- 1x Hive Tyrant
- 2x Devourer with Brainleech Worms - Twin-linked
- 1x Tyrant Guard
2. Hive Tyrant* (245pts)
- 1x Hive Tyrant
- 2x Devourer with Brainleech Worms - Twin-linked
- 1x Tyrant Guard

----- Troop ----------------------------
1. Tyranid Warrior Brood* (110pts)
- 3x Tyranid Warrior
- 1x Barbed Strangler, 2x Deathspitter
2. Termagant Brood (40pts)
- 10x Termagant

----- Elite ----------------------------
1. Venomthrope Brood (45pts)
- 1x Venomthrope
2. Venomthrope Brood (45pts)
- 1x Venomthrope
3. Venomthrope Brood (45pts)
- 1x Venomthrope

----- Heavy Support --------------------
1. Trygon Prime* (230pts)
- 1x Trygon Prime
2. Trygon Prime* (230pts)
- 1x Trygon Prime

----- Endless Swarm ----------------------------
1. Tyranid Warrior Brood* (110pts)
- 3x Tyranid Warrior
- 1x Barbed Strangler, 2x Deathspitter
2. Hormaguant Brood (98pts)
- 14x Hormaguant
- 14x Adrenal Glands (28pts)
3. Hormaguant Brood (75pts)
- 15x Hormaguant
4. Hormaguant Brood (75pts)
- 15x Hormaguant
5. Termagant Brood (80pts)
- 20x Termagant
6. Termagant Brood (80pts)
- 20x Termagant

----- Fortification --------------------

1. Bastion (95pts)
- 1x Bastion
- 1x Comms Relay

badula wrote:
I have a question... in my local group there are a lot of BA users and they often bring a furioso dreadnought....
the rule says it keeps attacking if he keeps wounding...

the question is: when he charges a 30x gaunts he usually kills those that are 2" from him.... can he go on killing those that were not partecipating in the fight rolling untill he stops wounding or after he has removed all those involved in that round he has to wait me to consolidate first?

Hmm, it's an interesting situation. I would think that as soon as the Dreadnought has killed all models in b2b it is no longer engaged with the Termagants, and can't make any further attacks (though the rest of wounds would be allocated as normal).

 PrinceRaven wrote:

badula wrote:
I have a question... in my local group there are a lot of BA users and they often bring a furioso dreadnought....
the rule says it keeps attacking if he keeps wounding...

the question is: when he charges a 30x gaunts he usually kills those that are 2" from him.... can he go on killing those that were not partecipating in the fight rolling untill he stops wounding or after he has removed all those involved in that round he has to wait me to consolidate first?

Hmm, it's an interesting situation. I would think that as soon as the Dreadnought has killed all models in b2b it is no longer engaged with the Termagants, and can't make any further attacks (though the rest of wounds would be allocated as normal).

BRB wrote:If there are no enemy models in base contact with a model attacking at that Initiative step, the Wound is allocated to the next closest enemy model. If several enemy models are the same distance away,then their controlling player chooses which is allocated the Wound, as above.

Once a model has a Wound allocated to it, you must continue to allocate Wounds to it until it is either removed as a casualty or the Wound pool is empty. Note that it is possible for all of the models in the target unit to be hit, wounded and killed, including those that are not engaged.

I would interpret to mean that once it starts, the Dread can keep going forever (on the assumption enemies are continuously charging into it). It is already classed as being engaged in combat from the start of it's initiative step, the extra attacks occur as part of that action.

So you'd say that when there are no enemies in base to base it is still engaged for the duration of that initiative step? I'd probably play it that way anyway, Blood Angels need all the help they can get in 6th.

Yes, a blender can blend an entire unit of 30 gants.
Hit him with any kind of MC.

 Gloomfang wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Units embarked in buildings automatically pass leadership tests.

No they don't. They gain Fearless. IB is a test that uses leadership, not a Morale check. The rules for IB say when you have to check and when you don't. Being embarked in a fortification doesn't make you exempt (per IB rules). If you are saying that auto pass IB then psykers autopass PotW when embarked as well.

So if you roll a 1-3 for IB with a IB:Lurk unit then they break per IB, not per failing a morale check. They also have to move the required distance as IB says they have to make a Fall Back move just as if they had failed a morale check.

If someone can show me the rules around this I would love to see them so I can reference them if they come up again.

Wow. You're right. I had played with the FAQ for so long I'd gotten used to the idea that embarked nids were free from synapse.

So this does in essence break the game without an FAQ. what happens to a unit falling back Ina building ? What if the door isn't facing the board edge? This makes the termagants/venomthrope in a box less reliable without synapse. Man warriors are looking more and more like list requirements.

I HATE RANDOM CHARGE LENGTHS!

Sorry. Had to get that out there. Played a Necron opponent last night. My turn 1 I attempt 3 charges (he moved up).

Warlord -> Anni Barge. 6" charge, roll 2.
Flyrant -> Immortals. ~6" charge, roll 5.
Tervigon -> Anni Barge. 10" charge, roll 9.

The Tervigon I shouldn't have made and I get that. Wasn't planning on it. But the other two left my Flyrants grounded and chilling in the open when what should've happened is I popped 2 Barges. His T2 both Flyrants died and my Tervigon took 4 wounds (more abysmal rolling for armor saves). I was tabled at the top of T4. (1k point game).

No fleet?

I never leave home without adrenals.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Units embarked in buildings automatically pass leadership tests.

No they don't. They gain Fearless. IB is a test that uses leadership, not a Morale check. The rules for IB say when you have to check and when you don't. Being embarked in a fortification doesn't make you exempt (per IB rules). If you are saying that auto pass IB then psykers autopass PotW when embarked as well.

So if you roll a 1-3 for IB with a IB:Lurk unit then they break per IB, not per failing a morale check. They also have to move the required distance as IB says they have to make a Fall Back move just as if they had failed a morale check.

If someone can show me the rules around this I would love to see them so I can reference them if they come up again.

Wow. You're right. I had played with the FAQ for so long I'd gotten used to the idea that embarked nids were free from synapse.

So this does in essence break the game without an FAQ. what happens to a unit falling back Ina building ? What if the door isn't facing the board edge? This makes the termagants/venomthrope in a box less reliable without synapse. Man warriors are looking more and more like list requirements.

This probably requires its own review in YMDC, but here's how I see it.

Until we get a new FAQ, you roll for instinctive behaviour as normal when in a building. However, being inside a transport grants Fearless. So...

Feed
1-3 Is applied as normal
4-5 Buildings aren't assault transports, so you can't legally declare a charge here. The unit can't do anything this turn.
6 Has no real effect

Hunt
1-3 This result specifically says that Fearless models ignore it, and to use the next one instead.
4-5 You can't run, but who cares. The unit still has to shoot the nearest enemy, though.
6 Takes effect as normal

Lurk
1-3 This is where it gets fun!

BRB wrote:A unit that is falling back must attempt to Regroup by taking a Regroup test in their Movement phase just before they move.

BRB wrote:Units containing one or more models with the Fearless special rule automatically pass Pinning, Fear and Regroup tests

Therefore the unit acts as if it fails a morale check, but as it's still within the building ans therefore Fearless, it has to regroup before it moves. It therefore automatically passes the regroup test and doesn't have to move, but is treated as having regrouped that turn and therefore follows the normal rules for that.
4-5 You can shoot, as you're within a building
6 Has no effect

 ductvader wrote:
No fleet?

I never leave home without adrenals.

60 point "tax" I've almost always regretted taking. (15 x4 MCs).

 xttz wrote:

Lurk
1-3 This is where it gets fun!

BRB wrote:A unit that is falling back must attempt to Regroup by taking a Regroup test in their Movement phase just before they move.

BRB wrote:Units containing one or more models with the Fearless special rule automatically pass Pinning, Fear and Regroup tests

Therefore the unit acts as if it fails a morale check, but as it's still within the building ans therefore Fearless, it has to regroup before it moves. It therefore automatically passes the regroup test and doesn't have to move, but is treated as having regrouped that turn and therefore follows the normal rules for that.

You only get to make a Re-Group check if you are already Falling Back at the start of your movement phase. Not sure on the timing of the Fallback as the rules for IB looks like you must make the Fall Back move as soon as you roll the 1-3 on the Lurk table. Might need to do something in YMDC.

rigeld2 wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
No fleet?

I never leave home without adrenals.

60 point "tax" I've almost always regretted taking. (15 x4 MCs).

It's something i've used on flyrants to get a better swooping onslaught, but every now and then it really comes in handy when making a key charge mid-to-late game. Maybe not worth it on tervigons, as they're primarily support units now that only assault targets of opportunity.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
No fleet?

I never leave home without adrenals.

60 point "tax" I've almost always regretted taking. (15 x4 MCs).

It's something i've used on flyrants to get a better swooping onslaught, but every now and then it really comes in handy when making a key charge mid-to-late game. Maybe not worth it on tervigons, as they're primarily support units now that only assault targets of opportunity.

Agreed...its a necessity for me with tyrants.

Double checked the rules for IB: Lurk
"D6 Roll 1-3 Survive! 'The unit is treated as having failed a morale test and must immediately fall back.'

So you must make the Fall Back move before you get to the Movement phase to make your Regroup check. The Fall Back move is a compulsory out of phase move.

rigeld2 wrote:
I HATE RANDOM CHARGE LENGTHS!

Sorry. Had to get that out there. Played a Necron opponent last night. My turn 1 I attempt 3 charges (he moved up).

Warlord -> Anni Barge. 6" charge, roll 2.
Flyrant -> Immortals. ~6" charge, roll 5.
Tervigon -> Anni Barge. 10" charge, roll 9.

The Tervigon I shouldn't have made and I get that. Wasn't planning on it. But the other two left my Flyrants grounded and chilling in the open when what should've happened is I popped 2 Barges. His T2 both Flyrants died and my Tervigon took 4 wounds (more abysmal rolling for armor saves). I was tabled at the top of T4. (1k point game).

Tell me about it.

I lost a game against Yakface's Tau because I failed like 4 or 5 charges from 6" or less! I even rolled 1,1 twice!

Then in a game with my necrons, I failed a multi-assault that was 3" away when I rolled 1,1!!!

Same thing happened in a tournament game where my paladins failed a 3" charge against another deathstar unit.


I hate Random Charge lengths as well!

So how are the new data slates working out for everyone?

So, let’s talk Warriors. More and more, it’s becoming clear that Synapse is vital for Tyranid, as it should be, and the lists we often see (Two flying tyrants with wings and a Tervigon) just can’t keep synapse up. People talk about Warriors, go “Meh”, then move on. I feel that this is a mistake. Warriors bring more to the table than expected and there should really be some brainpower put towards getting the most out of these guys.

The core unit is three models, but can be expanded up to nine. That’s probably too many unless you’re putting together some kind of master-flanking unit, which is, in fact, possible. Three is what most people are using, but three fits under a single large blast, which is just begging for trouble. A somewhat larger unit (let’s say five models) can eat a pie plate and still stay up, if bloodied and battered, keeping Synapse for another round. That’s kind of big. Yes, they’re vulnerable to Str 8 instantdeath, but any attack like that that goes towards your Warrior isn’t going towards a monstrous creature, which is good, and you should be getting cover saves (see below) to shrug off some. Small arms fire, in contrast, is a minor threat: T 4, SV 4+, and 3 wounds each on a unit with five-ish models is just surprisingly beefy. Of particular note is that fully half of all wounds dealt out by Marine bolters or Tau pulse rifles will be shrugged off. In current lists, Str 6-7 special and heavy weapons have taken over, plus grav guns, all of which chop down monstrous creatures with relative ease, but fall short when faced with the same points volume of Warriors. (One Tervigon, for instance, has only one third as many wounds as the same point cost of Warriors. That means that it takes between two and three times the firepower to remove them, which is important. More wounds = more durability, which is key on an objective-holding unit. This is especially true if you’re dealing with grav-spam, which brings MCs down to their knees with ease but barely hit harder than boltguns where Warriors are concerned. More wounds also let you survive Eldar shurikens better, since they Rend.

Weapon loadouts are another thing that aren’t getting talked about very much. While biomorphs, like Adrenal glands, toxin sacks, and flesh hooks, are an all-or-nothing affair, each Warrior can be armed however you wish. You can mix-n-match all day long, giving you an edge in take on all comers lists. A couple with devourers and rending claws, in case you need to melee against Marines, a couple with Deathspitters and scythes, to serve as general-purpose shooting and transport-glancing, plus a barbed strangler for just-in-case pinning tests? No problem! Want one guy to have twin boneswords? Not only can you do it, but he’s not a character, so you don’t have to worry about Challenges. Just get on in their and start stabbin’. Heck, you can even make “MegaGenestealers” by taking scythes, rending claws, and flesh hooks, creating a line of Warriors that run every turn until they get into charge range, then attack *at initiative* rather than give defenders first strike, and enjoy the benefits of a 4+ save. As an added bonus, you’ll be providing synapse to your neighbors… always friendly that. Heck, if you’re *really* feeling funky, you can equip your Warriors with devourers … and spinefists. Both are Assault 3 guns, but the spinefists are twin-linked and AP 5 (though only Strength 3 instead of 4), which can make a difference. I don’t recommend it as Deathspitters give you the same AP and *two* better strength but no twin-linked, but it’s an option. (Remember that they only get to fire one weapon, not two, tho.) I’ve not tried out Adrenal Gland yet; I’m opposed to pushing Warriors over 40 points if at all possible, but it’s possibly a valid option if you want MegaGenestealers.

Warriors should always come with a nice fat unit of either termagants or hormagaunts that serve as a screen. Why go through cover when the little guys serve as *walking* cover? Keep one Warrior within 6” of a Venomthrope and get that save up to a 3+, then giggle like a maniac as those heavy guns dissipate into thin air. Sure, your counter-shots are granting cover saves as well, but your normal gun is AP -, so no biggie. If you need to punch armor with your AP 5 ones, you can always have your screen move to one side in the movement phase, granting you a clear LOS, then run in the shooting phase to block shots again. Risky, since your run roll might tank, but an option.

There’s way more, obviously, but I’d like to see some feedback/advice from other people who have been experimenting. I know the general feeling is “Meh”, but experiments on-table often provide different results than Theoryhammer, so I’d like to gather a bit of field research if possible.

 jy2 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I HATE RANDOM CHARGE LENGTHS!

Sorry. Had to get that out there. Played a Necron opponent last night. My turn 1 I attempt 3 charges (he moved up).

Warlord -> Anni Barge. 6" charge, roll 2.
Flyrant -> Immortals. ~6" charge, roll 5.
Tervigon -> Anni Barge. 10" charge, roll 9.

The Tervigon I shouldn't have made and I get that. Wasn't planning on it. But the other two left my Flyrants grounded and chilling in the open when what should've happened is I popped 2 Barges. His T2 both Flyrants died and my Tervigon took 4 wounds (more abysmal rolling for armor saves). I was tabled at the top of T4. (1k point game).

Tell me about it.

I lost a game against Yakface's Tau because I failed like 4 or 5 charges from 6" or less! I even rolled 1,1 twice!

Then in a game with my necrons, I failed a multi-assault that was 3" away when I rolled 1,1!!!

Same thing happened in a tournament game where my paladins failed a 3" charge against another deathstar unit.


I hate Random Charge lengths as well!

Agreed. I am taking Fleet on all my Flyrants, every time, no exceptions.

@Wakshaani

I personally think the bombardment dataslate is an excellent reason to take warriors.

The Prime and Warrior slate is also good because It slides that 3rd HQ in without sacrificing a Flyrant...While provide cheap and far reaching synapse.

 ductvader wrote:
@Wakshaani

I personally think the bombardment dataslate is an excellent reason to take warriors.

The Prime and Warrior slate is also good because It slides that 3rd HQ in without sacrificing a Flyrant...While provide cheap and far reaching synapse.

The synapse node is especially helpful in larger games where you can take a tervigon and gant blob as your required troops. Then just bury the super prime in the gant blob (with norn crown for lolz) and synapse control should be ensured.

I haven't quite figured out the Synapse node yet, but I am pondering kitting up one of the Broods, tossing the prime in for alpha warrior and Outflanking it. as long as lots of other things hit the backfield that big Synapse and threat overload, could be a good tactic. I could help cover cost by lowering down my Big Wormeys (Trygon Prime) to regular Wormeys saves 80 points right there, and Tunnel assault is still an option...

So would a big Warrior brood, a couple of tunneling (say a Mawloc, and a Wormy) be a good start? Raveners might be a good add in as well...

It's a separate detachment so it can't benefit from hive commander. You would need to take an additional warrior brood in your primary FOC and a hive tyrant to allow the synapse node prime to outflank.

Yeah....we've reached a milestone, guys.


We beat out the Sisters thread in terms of number of posts.


Ok, back to your regularly scheduled topic....





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jifel wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I HATE RANDOM CHARGE LENGTHS!

Sorry. Had to get that out there. Played a Necron opponent last night. My turn 1 I attempt 3 charges (he moved up).

Warlord -> Anni Barge. 6" charge, roll 2.
Flyrant -> Immortals. ~6" charge, roll 5.
Tervigon -> Anni Barge. 10" charge, roll 9.

The Tervigon I shouldn't have made and I get that. Wasn't planning on it. But the other two left my Flyrants grounded and chilling in the open when what should've happened is I popped 2 Barges. His T2 both Flyrants died and my Tervigon took 4 wounds (more abysmal rolling for armor saves). I was tabled at the top of T4. (1k point game).

Tell me about it.

I lost a game against Yakface's Tau because I failed like 4 or 5 charges from 6" or less! I even rolled 1,1 twice!

Then in a game with my necrons, I failed a multi-assault that was 3" away when I rolled 1,1!!!

Same thing happened in a tournament game where my paladins failed a 3" charge against another deathstar unit.


I hate Random Charge lengths as well!

Agreed. I am taking Fleet on all my Flyrants, every time, no exceptions.

I still don't. I actually rarely assault with my flyrants, but when I do, I make sure that they are no more than 1-3" from their targets.

Unyielding Hunger wrote:

Speneticus wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

 Iechine wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

Let me ask you....if you beat your wife in 40K, does she beat you in real life.

My wife is a fiery angry thing when it comes to competition so if I ever win believe me its amidst a lot of turmoil and personal cost.

Ahhh....nothing more scary than She-Who-Must-Be-Obeyed.

Methinks she may be a Hive Tyrant in disguise.

I would say a Dominatrix

Your both wrong. She's clearly a Norn Queen. Remember, shes got the kid to prove it. Which makes Lechine one of the few Norn Kings in existence.

Fun fact: It's actually an "i" at the start of my name, its my band name, http://www.iechine.com . But yea she's about 85 pounds of anger and eldar/tau cheese.

PrinceRaven wrote:The question is how he managed to assault the Wave Serpent at all, did she forget to move it or did he manage to pull off a 12" charge?

At that point in the game there was no where safe at that time for the serpent to go (mawloc over here, mawloc over there, tyrant over there, warrior brood over there) and Lictor
happened to make his 8" or so charge.

I really regret not finishing that battlereport because the game was awesome, we finished it before going to bed last night.

My warrior brood with the one LW/BS ended up killing off the Wraithknight. A Mawloc held it in place down to its last wound, hit and ran to burrow on my turn and by that time the brood was in charge range.

My other Mawloc hit her Wraithguard on point and killed most of them. Her Crimson hunter of course downed my Warlord tyrant, my Warrior brood killed her Farseer that remained then secured her Emperors
Will. My Harpy secured my Emperors will, but by then she had so many Scouring kill points with my regenerating Gargoyles that she took Scouring. So we tied on primaries and we both had Linebreaker/Warlord,
so she won by 1 point on 1st Blood from her nuking one of my Lictors with SMS. : /

On the topic of dataslates ... the skyblight I suspect will not be allowed at some venues. It is way to easy to abuse. A list like this ....

Flyrant, 2 TL Devourers, Regeneration 260 (warlord)
Flyrant, 2 TL Devourers 230 ( takes dominion)

10 Termagants 40
10 Termagants 40

Hive Crone 155
Hive Crone 155
Harpy, TL Venom Cannon 140
Harpy, TL Venom Cannon 140
20 Gargoyles, Adrenal, Toxin 200
20 Gargoyles, Adrenal, Toxin 200
20 Gargoyles, Adrenal, Toxin 200

How exactly do 90% of the lists out there defend against this? I have 60 returning, scoring troops. And they cannot be contested by other troops. And I still have six flyers. Even if one squad does not make it back ... so what. You will lose some games ... the dice will not always abide. But you sure will not lose many. I think it is a little bit silly. And yes, I know, Nids needed some love. However, they were not shabby even without the new formations. You take your gargs and you fly them straight ahead and your opponent has some real issues. Do you ignore the gargs? And the Flyers can leave the table whenever it is appropriate and return as well. So you will will try and down six flyers in one turn and let the gargs get to your lines? Tau and Eldar might ... I say might have a chance but still i would favour Nids in those match ups by a fair bit.

I think people are not really abusing skyblight as mucjh as they could. The strength is in the returning gargs. They are a true force multiplier that is way better than WoN gants. These guys are fast and hit the first wave. So what if you lose some. Nope ... I cannot see this being allowed once players cotton on. I'm not even sure you need regen on the warlord. As for the termagants ... well if they cannot go to ground and fall out of synapse so be it. Take dominion on one flyrant and don't worry about the gants. Your gargs will carry the load anyway. Players will tweak it I'm sure.

 Iechine wrote:
Fun fact: It's actually an "i" at the start of my name, its my band name, http://www.iechine.com . But yea she's about 85 pounds of anger and eldar/tau cheese.

Hmm, so it is. Anyhow, I had an odd thought last night on escalation. You realize we now have the perfect list now, with this many fliers, plus the harridan.

I for one won't be playing with the Skyblight Swarm, partly because of how it's too powerful for my local meta, partly because I'm too poor too afford all those models and the transport for them.

felixcat wrote:
You want the Reaper Tyrant assaulting the WK always

IDed a Wraith Knight like this two days ago in a game 1750 game. Totally worth the points spent if you see them frequently.

On a side note, where do they get these names? The Reaper of Obliterax? Really? Was it evolved from the bones of the Great Brutavore from the planet Obliterax in the Apocalytron system?

Screw it, I will be playing anything that is legal. It will also allow me to play units that may not be top-tier but still fun (crones, harpies).

I do 100% agree the Gargs are the main threat. Fleshborers, blinding venom, Jump Infantry, Scoring/Contestaproof, cheap. That formation is also entirely free from physical contraints, even the majority of the IB tests are IB(Hunt) which is much more favourable. No within X" to gain Y buff.

Living Artillery is what people will flock to but the physical constraint and the lack of address scoring will make it a bolt-on, not a core focus.

Endless Swarm - fun, meaty but not effective. You spend a lot of points on models that don't do much stock and can't do much throughout the game.

Incubator nodes - I think non-troop tervigons are meh and the 30 gaunt tax adds too many points to the whole thing. The actual formation rule is also moot.

Synaptic Swarm - Useful. Not amazing.

Skyblight - Just amaze-balls.

IDed a Wraith Knight like this two days ago in a game 1750 game. Totally worth the points spent if you see them frequently.

I thought the same until I realized that twenty adrenaled toxic gargs (wounding on a 4+) will handle that WK quite nicely and they return. So why do I need a Reaper Rant? The fact is that skyblight has made it an imperative to take large squads of gargs if you want to abuse the formation - and let us be honest - tournament players will be doing this after testing. I was writing about this on tyranid hive. i've tested the formation with fortifications, seven flyers, reaper flyrant, etc. After the games I realized the gargs will be the MVPs of any skyblight list. They are just ridiculous multipliers in the list.

The only reason i have not fielded all 60 is that I do not own enough yet. But once I get another 20 gargs I will be playing it. I just don't see many lists able to fight it.

I think I'm "only" going to run 50 gargoyles. 2x20 with adrenal glands can screw up tanks and infantry and will just be stupid good with a single 10 man brood for DSing into objectives. Then add 3 Flyrants, 2 harpies, 2 crones some gants and a BastionThrope to round out 1850... This is stupid good. I love it!

Yep toxin is a debatable upgrade as blinding venom also has poison. But I like the choice. If i really think a 4+ better I'm taking it. There will be some situations where I want to blind and I'll do that if needed. Also it should be noted that a unit of twenty gargs will often be able to multi-assault. This is quite nice. I read blinding venom as take a test on each hit. I have seen arguments that it is only one test per unit but without a FaQ I disagree. That said if my opponent disallowed it I would not put up a fuss. So I take toxin as insurance as 6 gargs can use blinding venom and the rest can hit without it. Statistically that should be more than enough to succeed and still cause quite a few wounds.

Grabbed an updated copy of the 2nd supplement and the Living Artillery Node has been clarified to be 1 Biovore Brood that includes 3 models, instead of 3 Biovores. Also, Endless Swarm now says 3 Hormagaunt Broods, so that's been brought in line with what other people have seen.

 felixcat wrote:
Yep toxin is a debatable upgrade as blinding venom also has poison. But I like the choice. If i really think a 4+ better I'm taking it. There will be some situations where I want to blind and I'll do that if needed. Also it should be noted that a unit of twenty gargs will often be able to multi-assault. This is quite nice.

It's a single attack that wounds a 5+ or 6+ against anything tougher than a marine. I would say toxin sacs are needed as you can shoot vehicles in the rear, still.

I just won't have the points within a 1500pt list, I worry!

Additionally, Toxin Sacs still work on Blinding Venom attacks while Arenal Glands do not.

Guys, tomorrow I'm going to have a real treat for all those bug players.


We are going to test out the Skyblight formation. I am going up to Frontline Gaming and playing against Geoff "InControl" running the Skyblight formation, and I am bringing my tournament-winning wraithwing tesla-crons. If the bugs can beat my crons, then they've got what it takes to win a GT.


Videorep should be coming shortly after.

Razerous wrote:

Endless Swarm - fun, meaty but not effective. You spend a lot of points on models that don't do much stock and can't do much throughout the game.

Incubator nodes - I think non-troop tervigons are meh and the 30 gaunt tax adds too many points to the whole thing.

Reread the section on making tervigons troops. It says 30 termigaunts in your army, not in your detachment or formation. So you can take 30 termigaunts in any formation or detachment and they make any one tervigon a troops choice.

Yes that does mean you can play Endless Swarm with 3 broods of 30 termigaunts and take 3 Troop tervigons in your primary detachment Troop FoC. I think some figured out you can take 6 troop tervigons with 2 Endlessswarms in a 2K list.

Woo!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jy2 wrote:
Guys, tomorrow I'm going to have a real treat for all those bug players.


We are going to test out the Skyblight formation. I am going up to Frontline Gaming and playing against Geoff "InControl" running the Skyblight formation, and I am bringing my tournament-winning wraithwing tesla-crons. If the bugs can beat my crons, then they've got what it takes to win a GT.


Videorep should be coming shortly after.

This will be great!

 Gloomfang wrote:

Razerous wrote:

Endless Swarm - fun, meaty but not effective. You spend a lot of points on models that don't do much stock and can't do much throughout the game.

Incubator nodes - I think non-troop tervigons are meh and the 30 gaunt tax adds too many points to the whole thing.

Reread the section on making tervigons troops. It says 30 termigaunts in your army, not in your detachment or formation. So you can take 30 termigaunts in any formation or detachment and they make any one tervigon a troops choice.

Yes that does mean you can play Endless Swarm with 3 broods of 30 termigaunts and take 3 Troop tervigons in your primary detachment Troop FoC. I think some figured out you can take 6 troop tervigons with 2 Endlessswarms in a 2K list.

My point is, having to spend the 120pt gant tax to do so < that's the issue. By all means gants & tervigons are strong but I've found that automatic 320pt chunk can limit options. Without the ability to passively buff gants, its not auto-include like two used to be.

Looking forward to the Bat Rep JY2 > Howvever I will take a pinch of salt, Skyblight formation lists will take awhile to flesh out, the best synergies (zoans or venoms? Or do T-Primes work well? Etc..)

Razerous wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:

Razerous wrote:

Endless Swarm - fun, meaty but not effective. You spend a lot of points on models that don't do much stock and can't do much throughout the game.

Incubator nodes - I think non-troop tervigons are meh and the 30 gaunt tax adds too many points to the whole thing.

Reread the section on making tervigons troops. It says 30 termigaunts in your army, not in your detachment or formation. So you can take 30 termigaunts in any formation or detachment and they make any one tervigon a troops choice.

Yes that does mean you can play Endless Swarm with 3 broods of 30 termigaunts and take 3 Troop tervigons in your primary detachment Troop FoC. I think some figured out you can take 6 troop tervigons with 2 Endlessswarms in a 2K list.

My point is, having to spend the 120pt gant tax to do so < that's the issue. By all means gants & tervigons are strong but I've found that automatic 320pt chunk can limit options. Without the ability to passively buff gants, its not auto-include like two used to be.

Looking forward to the Bat Rep JY2 > Howvever I will take a pinch of salt, Skyblight formation lists will take awhile to flesh out, the best synergies (zoans or venoms? Or do T-Primes work well? Etc..)

I wouldn't mind running the Tyranid army myself, but Geoff is a bug player exclusively.

Of course, I wouldn't mind running the Skyblight against our arch-nemesis - DE venom-spam run by Frankie!!!

 Gloomfang wrote:

Razerous wrote:

Endless Swarm - fun, meaty but not effective. You spend a lot of points on models that don't do much stock and can't do much throughout the game.

Incubator nodes - I think non-troop tervigons are meh and the 30 gaunt tax adds too many points to the whole thing.

Reread the section on making tervigons troops. It says 30 termigaunts in your army, not in your detachment or formation. So you can take 30 termigaunts in any formation or detachment and they make any one tervigon a troops choice.

Yes that does mean you can play Endless Swarm with 3 broods of 30 termigaunts and take 3 Troop tervigons in your primary detachment Troop FoC. I think some figured out you can take 6 troop tervigons with 2 Endlessswarms in a 2K list.

To get 6 Troop Tervigons with 2 Endless Swarm Broods is a minimum 2480 Points.

HQ:

Malanthrope - 110 (Terrible but the cheapest)

Troops:

Tervigon x6 - 1170

2 Warriors Broods (3 ea.) - 180

6 Hormagaunt Broods (10 ea.) - 300

6 Termagant Broods (30 ea.) - 720

felixcat wrote:On the topic of dataslates ... the skyblight I suspect will not be allowed at some venues. It is way to easy to abuse. A list like this ....

Flyrant, 2 TL Devourers, Regeneration 260 (warlord)
Flyrant, 2 TL Devourers 230 ( takes dominion)

10 Termagants 40
10 Termagants 40

Hive Crone 155
Hive Crone 155
Harpy, TL Venom Cannon 140
Harpy, TL Venom Cannon 140
20 Gargoyles, Adrenal, Toxin 200
20 Gargoyles, Adrenal, Toxin 200
20 Gargoyles, Adrenal, Toxin 200

How exactly do 90% of the lists out there defend against this?

That list has a pretty huge weakness - take out the 2 Flyrants and the army will dissolve. The Crones will descend to charge the nearest target, Harpies will shoot the nearest, Gargoyles will Go to Ground + stop doing anything, and the Termagants just run away. However it's also pretty un-optimised, with over 200pts spent on Gargoyle upgrades. It's not too hard to squeeze in a 3rd Flyrant and some Warriors there as an 1850 list.

You are right in that Nids can put out a crazy amount of FMCs. They're going to be strong, but I doubt it will be as reliably strong as Taudar with Riptides / Wave Serpent spam. FMC lists are incredibly vulnerable to failing grounding checks, so a little bit a bad luck can have a huge negative effect.

Wakshaani wrote:So, let’s talk Warriors....

words

There’s way more, obviously, but I’d like to see some feedback/advice from other people who have been experimenting. I know the general feeling is “Meh”, but experiments on-table often provide different results than Theoryhammer, so I’d like to gather a bit of field research if possible.

My experience with Warriors is that they're only worth taking for the fringe benefits of Synapse, Scoring and fulfilling minimum FOC requirements. Warriors are a swiss-army knife unit, able to do anything you want. It's just a shame they do it all badly or for a large cost.

It takes far too many points to make them effective as a melee unit - after just a couple upgrades they start hitting Terminator-levels of points with only a fraction of the abilities. They would have been far more viable at 25pts/each with some of the upgrades toned down (AG 3/4pts, FH 3pts, TS 2pts). Using them in a ranged capacity is better, but by no means amazing. Their standard weapons are only 18", and with only T4 Sv4+ to for protection you'd better have reliable access to Venomthropes or Catalyst to get that close. The exception here is the Barbed Strangler; adding cheap long-ranged Pinning. That gives Warriors a niche in babysitting back-line units/objectives while still contributing something.

Most of the optimal Tyranid scoring units are found outside the regular FOC, largely thanks to Skyblight and Endless Swarm. This means you still need to throw in some mandatory Troops in the main detatchment, which invariably will be Gants or Warriors. On the upside, ~100pts for a unit that scores, provides synapse and a small measure of long ranged firepower isn't a bad deal. Just don't expect Warriors to achieve anymore than that, no matter how many points you sink into them. Virtually every other option in the codex is better at either ranged killing or melee, and often by a large margin.

One of the biggest frustrations is the Prime. If GW had left it at around 80-100pts, it would have been a fantastic option to buff Warriors. Unfortunately the Prime costs more than a Warrior before before you even give it any weapons, and by the time it's optimised you could by buying a far more effective Hive Tyrant for the same points. The Synapse Node formation starts at 400pts for 10 Infantry models with ~30 wounds, before any upgrades. That's a decent chunk of your army which isn't very effective at actually killing anything, it just acts in a support capacity.

I really want to like Warriors - I own 16 of them plus 2 Primes. Unfortunately, if they weren't featured so much in these formations and Synapse worked the same way as last edition, I think it would be very rare to see them on the table at all.

Lansirill wrote:Grabbed an updated copy of the 2nd supplement and the Living Artillery Node has been clarified to be 1 Biovore Brood that includes 3 models, instead of 3 Biovores. Also, Endless Swarm now says 3 Hormagaunt Broods, so that's been brought in line with what other people have seen.

The issue was with the Termagants - the eBook version says 2 broods and the iPad edition says 3. What does yours say, and which version is it?

I like the Warriors in my list because they outflank and have rending claws and a single LW/BS.

With so many FMC's and Mawlocs on the board its a real drag to fire at them instead, and if they dont die they are powerful in their own right.

@xttz

hive crone failing IB is rare (ld10). Further, if that does happen it is only prohibited from shooting - it can shill swoop and vector strike to cause damage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@jy2
Bring your nids with you, maybe you'll get a chance to run sky blight vs Deldar in addition to your battle with Geoff. Good luck though I must admit I'm hoping nids put on a clinic.

@xttz

You see the upgrades and squad sizes of the gargs a weakness of the list (because you no forgo one source of synapse). I see it as the strength of the list. Those sixty gargs will be taking the heat off the Flyrants (let alone the harpies and crones). Obviously I need to be careful with positioning and cover and LoS with the Flyrants. I am not going to use them aggressively because I have four other FMCs and Gargs to get aggressive with. Can someone get lucky and take out all my synapse? Absolutely. That is what makes it a game. But I would fancy my chances against the majority of lists out there.

On another note ... is blinding venom and hammer of wrath attacks allowed in your group? We need a FaQ.

I would say no to the combining of Blinding Venom + Hammer of Wrath. the HoW rules state that it's a single hit using the unmodified strength of the model, not a CC attack. Think of it as impact hits, rather than actual fighting done by the minature.

 jy2 wrote:
Guys, tomorrow I'm going to have a real treat for all those bug players.


We are going to test out the Skyblight formation. I am going up to Frontline Gaming and playing against Geoff "InControl" running the Skyblight formation, and I am bringing my tournament-winning wraithwing tesla-crons. If the bugs can beat my crons, then they've got what it takes to win a GT.


Videorep should be coming shortly after.

Sooo looking foward to this!

 jy2 wrote:
Guys, tomorrow I'm going to have a real treat for all those bug players.


We are going to test out the Skyblight formation. I am going up to Frontline Gaming and playing against Geoff "InControl" running the Skyblight formation, and I am bringing my tournament-winning wraithwing tesla-crons. If the bugs can beat my crons, then they've got what it takes to win a GT.


Videorep should be coming shortly after.

Ew. Videorep.

 jy2 wrote:
Guys, tomorrow I'm going to have a real treat for all those bug players.


We are going to test out the Skyblight formation. I am going up to Frontline Gaming and playing against Geoff "InControl" running the Skyblight formation, and I am bringing my tournament-winning wraithwing tesla-crons. If the bugs can beat my crons, then they've got what it takes to win a GT.


Videorep should be coming shortly after.

Sweet, this will be a close match, but I expect iNcontroL to take this one.

That is assuming the list looks something like (1850?):
Dakka flyrant
Dakka flyrant
Dakka flyrant

Termagants
Termagants

Gargoyles
Gargoyles
Gargoyles
Hive Crone
Hive Crone
Hive Crone
Hive Crone
Harpy (HVC)
Harpy (HVC)

That list warms the cockles of my heart.
Maybe below the cockles - maybe the sub-cockle area.
Maybe the liver. Maybe the even colon, I don't know.

(sorry, but +1 if you get the lyrics)

rigeld2 wrote:
That list warms the cockles of my heart.
Maybe below the cockles - maybe the sub-cockle area.
Maybe the liver. Maybe the even colon, I don't know.

(sorry, but +1 if you get the lyrics)

Are you some kind of @sshole?

*Edit, denied by the filters and sent to the donkey-cave!

 felixcat wrote:

IDed a Wraith Knight like this two days ago in a game 1750 game. Totally worth the points spent if you see them frequently.

I thought the same until I realized that twenty adrenaled toxic gargs (wounding on a 4+) will handle that WK quite nicely and they return. So why do I need a Reaper Rant? The fact is that skyblight has made it an imperative to take large squads of gargs if you want to abuse the formation - and let us be honest - tournament players will be doing this after testing. I was writing about this on tyranid hive. i've tested the formation with fortifications, seven flyers, reaper flyrant, etc. After the games I realized the gargs will be the MVPs of any skyblight list. They are just ridiculous multipliers in the list.

The only reason i have not fielded all 60 is that I do not own enough yet. But once I get another 20 gargs I will be playing it. I just don't see many lists able to fight it.

The statement was intended to be generic. Not everyone is running toxic gargoyles in which case one needs to makes sure and include something that can deal with WKs. If your army already has that covered then you are correct, their is no need for a Reaprant and toxic gargoyles are generally more suited for the task. Barring that the Reaper is well worth it's points.

I would do things your way but as of now I still don't own any gargoyles (though I might fix that soon) and have to make what I can out of what I have. I'm waiting for the third slate to hit before I make my final decisions as to what I require even though it's hard to imagine anything will be better than or even on-par with Skyblight.

 Abandon wrote:

 felixcat wrote:

IDed a Wraith Knight like this two days ago in a game 1750 game. Totally worth the points spent if you see them frequently.

I thought the same until I realized that twenty adrenaled toxic gargs (wounding on a 4+) will handle that WK quite nicely and they return. So why do I need a Reaper Rant? The fact is that skyblight has made it an imperative to take large squads of gargs if you want to abuse the formation - and let us be honest - tournament players will be doing this after testing. I was writing about this on tyranid hive. i've tested the formation with fortifications, seven flyers, reaper flyrant, etc. After the games I realized the gargs will be the MVPs of any skyblight list. They are just ridiculous multipliers in the list.

The only reason i have not fielded all 60 is that I do not own enough yet. But once I get another 20 gargs I will be playing it. I just don't see many lists able to fight it.

The statement was intended to be generic. Not everyone is running toxic gargoyles in which case one needs to makes sure and include something that can deal with WKs. If your army already has that covered then you are correct, their is no need for a Reaprant and toxic gargoyles are generally more suited for the task. Barring that the Reaper is well worth it's points.

I would do things your way but as of now I still don't own any gargoyles (though I might fix that soon) and have to make what I can out of what I have. I'm waiting for the third slate to hit before I make my final decisions as to what I require even though it's hard to imagine anything will be better than or even on-par with Skyblight.

"Endless" Carni/Tyrano Fexes?

I'm thinking more likely carnifexes with FNP or IWND standard

The statement was intended to be generic. Not everyone is running toxic gargoyles in which case one needs to makes sure and include something that can deal with WKs.

Which is understandable. My point was that skyblight has given us an option that is now much better. Tying up a WK or Riptide with gants is not new tactic. But there was risk involved investing points in sacrificial units so toxic gargs were not seen as a good option. However, when those gargs can return and when those gargs do not take up an FoC slot I think it time tor re-examine how efficient they are as a force multiplier now.

 felixcat wrote:

The statement was intended to be generic. Not everyone is running toxic gargoyles in which case one needs to makes sure and include something that can deal with WKs.

Which is understandable. My point was that skyblight has given us an option that is now much better. Tying up a WK or Riptide with gants is not new tactic. But there was risk involved investing points in sacrificial units so toxic gargs were not seen as a good option. However, when those gargs can return and when those gargs do not take up an FoC slot I think it time tor re-examine how efficient they are as a force multiplier now.

Agreed. I know most people just seem to see FMC spam but the gargoyles seem like the unsung heroes of the formation. Good units that are now super-scoring units that come back after they die half the time. In the end these are your game winners.

Just finished the game. All I'm going to say is....man, what a game! Sorry, guys, but you're just going to have to wait for the videorep to come out (probably by tomorrow!)

NamelessBard wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
Guys, tomorrow I'm going to have a real treat for all those bug players.


We are going to test out the Skyblight formation. I am going up to Frontline Gaming and playing against Geoff "InControl" running the Skyblight formation, and I am bringing my tournament-winning wraithwing tesla-crons. If the bugs can beat my crons, then they've got what it takes to win a GT.


Videorep should be coming shortly after.

Sweet, this will be a close match, but I expect iNcontroL to take this one.

That is assuming the list looks something like (1850?):
Dakka flyrant
Dakka flyrant
Dakka flyrant

Termagants
Termagants

Gargoyles
Gargoyles
Gargoyles
Hive Crone
Hive Crone
Hive Crone
Hive Crone
Harpy (HVC)
Harpy (HVC)

This is what he ran at 1850:

Dakka flyrant
Dakka flyrant
Dakka flyrant

Tervigon
30 Termagants - 8 Devourers

10 Gargoyles
10 Gargoyles
10 Gargoyles

Hive Crone
Hive Crone

Harpy (HVC)
Harpy (Stranglethorn)


Basically, he went more with the units that he (and the store....and I) had and also units that he was more familiar with.


This was my list:


D-lord - 2+, MSS, ResOrb
D-lord - 2+, MSS

2x5 Gauss Immortals in Night Scythes
2x5 Warriors in Night Scythes

3x5 Wraiths

3 Annihilation Barges

Ok, videorep out.


Skyblight Tyranids vs Wraithwing Necrons


Warhammer 40K Video Bat Rep #216 Skyblight Tyranids vs Cron Air

This is why I fear Akyblight might get banned at tournaments and other venues. You faced thirty gargoyles Jy2. Around here we have two guys fielding over sixty gargs in their list along with six flyers. How do you defend against that?

 jy2 wrote:
Ok, videorep out.


Skyblight Tyranids vs Wraithwing Necrons


Warhammer 40K Video Bat Rep #216 Skyblight Tyranids vs Cron Air

That was good fight right up to the end, thanks for the battle report. Confirmed a lot of what I thought about the Skyblight formation and I really liked your Cron Air army as well. I'd say more but I don't want to give anything away and everyone should watch this for themselves

 felixcat wrote:
This is why I fear Akyblight might get banned at tournaments and other venues. You faced thirty gargoyles Jy2. Around here we have two guys fielding over sixty gargs in their list along with six flyers. How do you defend against that?

Don't have an answer yet, but IMO, there is always a way. No army, no matter how good, is unbeatable.

 jy2 wrote:

 felixcat wrote:
This is why I fear Akyblight might get banned at tournaments and other venues. You faced thirty gargoyles Jy2. Around here we have two guys fielding over sixty gargs in their list along with six flyers. How do you defend against that?

Don't have an answer yet, but IMO, there is always a way. No army, no matter how good, is unbeatable.

Time to break out the triple stalker SM list with sky fire tau allies.

IG with max hydras and Vendettas woo!

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

 felixcat wrote:
This is why I fear Akyblight might get banned at tournaments and other venues. You faced thirty gargoyles Jy2. Around here we have two guys fielding over sixty gargs in their list along with six flyers. How do you defend against that?

Don't have an answer yet, but IMO, there is always a way. No army, no matter how good, is unbeatable.

Time to break out the triple stalker SM list with sky fire tau allies.

 jifel wrote:
IG with max hydras and Vendettas woo!

The problem then becomes how to deal with the other top-tier tournament armies like beaststar/seer council/wraithwing/Ovesastar/White Scars/etc. as well.

If you kit out your army to be able to deal with Skyblight bugs, it's hard to build an army that can handle all the other armies (or as the Internet is now calling it....Deathstar40K) as well.

What's so good about Skyblight nids is that it is a great TAC army as well. I feel that it can matchup right now with any of the other top-tier armies and hold its own without changing anything from army to army (other than tactics).

It's incredibly difficult to have a list that can beat every competitive list. But Nids just went from a "dark-horse competitive army" to that army you have to plan for now. I'm very happy to jump on the Skyblight bandwagon. I won't be running the 9 FMCs at 1850 that is max cheese, but 7 allows some great balance.

I'd say 7 FMC is a more cheesy list than 9, as it allows you to run lots of pseudo-scoring Gargoyles that come back on a 4+. That's the real cheese of Skyblight Swarm, extra FMCs is just the icing on the cheesecake.

 felixcat wrote:
This is why I fear Akyblight might get banned at tournaments and other venues. You faced thirty gargoyles Jy2. Around here we have two guys fielding over sixty gargs in their list along with six flyers. How do you defend against that?

Many armies will have a very hard time dealing with it but is it really any worse than some of the other armies out there? The term OP is often used to describe several other army list types that are widely excepted but as soon as the Nids have something on par they call foul? If any venue does this I will be more than happy not to play at their tourney. 'Many armies will have a very hard time dealing with this' could describe any number of armies, many of which are called OP yet all have their weaknesses. Allowing this for some armies but denying it to the nids would show something less than good sportsmanship.

Defeating Skyblight is not so hard for some armies I'd imagine though further trial should of course be given. After their done being intimidated they realize they just need to do what the were doing before. Kill the synapse and make our scouring units fall back off objectives. The only difference being that it's now easier said then done.

I'm sure people will come up with counters for skyblight but it will be a very powerful force in the meta. Now there are already tournaments banning dataslates ( no coteaz, no be'lakor, etc.) I also expect to see bans on d-weapons. I agree it is not fair. We finally have some answers to TauDar and DelDar and then TOs take them away. So sure it is beatable but not easily and I don't think at the moment there is a hard counter list that is top tier. As pointed out tailoring just for skyblight could really neuter your list overall.

I'd be fine with Skyblight being banned if everyone else had their OP stuff banned too.

If Skyblight gets banned, I will never play Mindshackle Scarabs, the Grimoire, CnC Nodes, Wave Serpents, Tigurius, Heldrakes or Vendettas again. Every army in this game has something too good for its points. That's the nature of the game. But if Nids get theirs banned because it "comes from a different source" or some BS, then it's because people dont want the meta to change, plain as that.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I'd be fine with Skyblight being banned if everyone else had their OP stuff banned too.

^^^This^^^
Fair is fair.

Considering all the OP stuff out their along with access to other armies OP stuff through allies I really don't think anyone has any grounds to deny it other than through sheer laziness in not wanting to type 'except for Tyranids' on the end of 'no formations/slates', intentional bias or complete ignorance of the state Nids are in. None of which is excusable in people wanting to organize tournaments... just my opinion.

Counting a formation as our ally slot sounds very reasonable to me.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I'd say 7 FMC is a more cheesy list than 9, as it allows you to run lots of pseudo-scoring Gargoyles that come back on a 4+. That's the real cheese of Skyblight Swarm, extra FMCs is just the icing on the cheesecake.

I agree. I think this is the more stronger list with a backfield tervigon. (It's also a lot cheaper for most of us)

Looking forward to watching the battlerep

NamelessBard wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I'd say 7 FMC is a more cheesy list than 9, as it allows you to run lots of pseudo-scoring Gargoyles that come back on a 4+. That's the real cheese of Skyblight Swarm, extra FMCs is just the icing on the cheesecake.

I agree. I think this is the more stronger list with a backfield tervigon. (It's also a lot cheaper for most of us)

Looking forward to watching the battlerep

I was thinking that strengthening those gargoyle broods and adding some cheap backfield synapse(perhaps Strangle Warriors to fill the required troop slots) would be best. Point for point the return on upgraded gargoyles might outweigh the production of termigants and they are of greater tactical use... Or perhaps adding one Trygon instead of added synapse to get the Gargoyles back in the action asap via Trygon tunnel.

 Abandon wrote:

NamelessBard wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I'd say 7 FMC is a more cheesy list than 9, as it allows you to run lots of pseudo-scoring Gargoyles that come back on a 4+. That's the real cheese of Skyblight Swarm, extra FMCs is just the icing on the cheesecake.

I agree. I think this is the more stronger list with a backfield tervigon. (It's also a lot cheaper for most of us)

Looking forward to watching the battlerep

I was thinking that strengthening those gargoyle broods and adding some cheap backfield synapse(perhaps Strangle Warriors to fill the required troop slots) would be best. Point for point the return on upgraded gargoyles might outweigh the production of termigants and they are of greater tactical use... Or perhaps adding one Trygon instead of added synapse to get the Gargoyles back in the action asap via Trygon tunnel.

I don't have the codex on hand but can jump infantry use the tunnel? I don't think they can. They would be able to deep strike though.

You'll want to keep those gargoyles cheap enough so they can die. I may go as high as 15 but then you may be pushing it. Hard to say though. It's really something that would need play testing to be sure.

Any Infantry can use the tunnels, Gargoyles are Jump Infantry and thus follow the rules for both Jump and Infantry units. So Gargoyles can use the Trygon Tunnel.

Ohhh, that's just DIRTY!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe it's just me but the more I think about it the key element to these new formations is the endless rule. It lets us use our troops as the expendable mass they're intended to be since they have a 50-50 shot at coming back.

Unless, like me, you have a 90% failure rating on important rolls that may very well decide the fate of the game.

Yeah, that 4+ is nice, but it's by no means reliable. You have a 1/8 chance of failing to bring back a single unit, which is slightly lower than a 1/6 chance. I know I wouldn't want to base my strategy of winning on rolling a 6 on a single d6. I'm not trying to suggest that these recurring troops are BAD, far from it, but I'd only be comfortable assuming a single unit comes back and I'd want to be sure I could handle the game if none of them did.

Technically it would be not rolling a 1 rather than rolling a 6 for your comparison, no?

Next Sunday I'm going to the monthly tournament at Huzzah games that I attended last month (got to play jy2's nemesis White Scars there).

Pretty sure this is what Im bringing:

Dragon/Snake 1850

Flyrant w/ Electro grubs, reaper/scything
Flyrant w/ dual Devourers

Lictor
Lictor
10x Termagant
Warrior brood (backfield)
Mawloc
Mawloc

Skyblight:
Flyrant w/LWBS/toxin/scything/electroshock
10 Gargoylex3
Harpy w/HVC x2
Crone

I've flat out had a lot of success with Lictors and Mawlocs lately. I know its 'only' 6 FMC's but Mawlocs are such a danger it will make the opponents deployment and movement tricky. One Mawloc will start on the board to allow the Lictors to secure a moneyshot.

is there any way to make a FUN list that just doesn't sucks with the swarmlord+3 hive guards?

Not really (IMO) because of the massive point sink for a foot slogging, non shooting 3+ armor MC. He and his guard are dead unless youre going against a really fluffy list.

However, fun is a lot of things to different people.

I personally don't build many lists without swarmy in it. His special abilities and powers make him well worth his points...I also recommend using an exocrine and Carnifexes in conjunction

I'm interested in seeing what people can do with 1250 points and below lists. I feel like higher point games are where it's easier to make 'nids beefy because you can spam the big guns.

What would be an ideal competitive list for low point games, though. At 1250, you can still rock riptide shenanigans, grimoire abuse and other power builds. I challenge you fellas to figure out the nastiest list a nid player could bring to a low-point tourny (1250 and below).

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I'm interested in seeing what people can do with 1250 points and below lists. I feel like higher point games are where it's easier to make 'nids beefy because you can spam the big guns.

What would be an ideal competitive list for low point games, though. At 1250, you can still rock riptide shenanigans, grimoire abuse and other power builds. I challenge you fellas to figure out the nastiest list a nid player could bring to a low-point tourny (1250 and below).

2 Flyrants, Venom and Dakkafexes?

I want to see lists!

Dragon/Snake 1850

Flyrant w/ Electro grubs, reaper/scything
Flyrant w/ dual Devourers

Lictor
Lictor
10x Termagant
Warrior brood (backfield)
Mawloc
Mawloc

Skyblight:
Flyrant w/LWBS/toxin/scything/electroshock
10 Gargoylex3
Harpy w/HVC x2
Crone

I like that

badula wrote:
is there any way to make a FUN list that just doesn't sucks with the swarmlord+3 hive guards?

I doubt it, but I figured it might be worth a try. I play at 1850, so that is the size of list I'm going to build.

3 Tyrant Guard
Swarmlord

1 Venomthrope
1 Venomthrope

12 HGaunts
10 TGaunts
10 TGaunts

3 Carnifexes (2 TL Devourers each)
Exocrine
TFex

Living Artillery Node
3 Warriors (2 Devourers, 1 Barbed Strangler)
Exocrine
3 Biovores

I think that list would do ok in my local meta except against tau and Necron flying circus.

ETA. I promise to give it a shot as soon as I get my Tyrant Guard painted.

badula wrote:
is there any way to make a FUN list that just doesn't sucks with the swarmlord+3 hive guards?

Not unless they come out with an awesome Swarmlords Brood formation in the next slate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I'm interested in seeing what people can do with 1250 points and below lists. I feel like higher point games are where it's easier to make 'nids beefy because you can spam the big guns.

What would be an ideal competitive list for low point games, though. At 1250, you can still rock riptide shenanigans, grimoire abuse and other power builds. I challenge you fellas to figure out the nastiest list a nid player could bring to a low-point tourny (1250 and below).

There's little reason to take formations at that point level so...

1 Flyrant - dual devourers
1 Flyrant - dual devourers
3 Warriors - Barbed Strangler
3 Warriors - Barbed Strangler
1 Venomthrope
1 Hive Crone
1 Hive Crone
1 Hive Crone
1 Biovore
1 Biovore

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I'm interested in seeing what people can do with 1250 points and below lists. I feel like higher point games are where it's easier to make 'nids beefy because you can spam the big guns.

What would be an ideal competitive list for low point games, though. At 1250, you can still rock riptide shenanigans, grimoire abuse and other power builds. I challenge you fellas to figure out the nastiest list a nid player could bring to a low-point tourny (1250 and below).

Challenge accepted

HQ: 470
Hive Tyrant - wings, 2 devourers, toxin sacs
Hive Tyrant - wings, 2 devourers

Troops: 470
Tervigon - cluster spines, shreddershard beetles
30 Termagants - 20 spinefists, 10 devourers
3 Warriors with barbed stranger

Fast Attack: 310
Hive Crone
Hive Crone

double dakkafex is also an option over double Hive Crone.

Almost tempted to see what folk could come up with at 1500 points here - bearing in mind that Escalation is allowed (though I'd not be fielding any superheavies). And I know there are Baneblades and Stompas present...

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Almost tempted to see what folk could come up with at 1500 points here - bearing in mind that Escalation is allowed (though I'd not be fielding any superheavies). And I know there are Baneblades and Stompas present...

Dual Flyrants
3 Single Zoeys
2x10 Termagaunts
Exocrine
(Skyblight)
3x 10 Gargs
2x Harpies
1x Crone

= 1465

I still think Zoeys are amazing and always underestimated. Exocrine & zoeys fill the ap2/3 gap left by the rest of the army. Plus synapse.

At 1500 the best list is pretty much Skyblight Swarm with some extra Tyrants and Hive Crone.

Razerous wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Almost tempted to see what folk could come up with at 1500 points here - bearing in mind that Escalation is allowed (though I'd not be fielding any superheavies). And I know there are Baneblades and Stompas present...

Dual Flyrants
3 Single Zoeys
2x10 Termagaunts
Exocrine
(Skyblight)
3x 10 Gargs
2x Harpies
1x Crone

= 1465

I still think Zoeys are amazing and always underestimated. Exocrine & zoeys fill the ap2/3 gap left by the rest of the army. Plus synapse.

If there will be Superheavies, I would recomend dropping 3 Zoeys and adding a Crone... Haywire at range > short range Lance

I'd stick for Synapse and buffing. Against superheavies, there isn't much in the way of 'fair or/and reasonable'.

Against Knights, I'd still stick with the Zoans. Range is much less of an issue and still, buffing and synapse.

Interesting - though the situation I am looking at sadly had no Formations allowed for the sake of the league (but he allowed Escalation. -_- < My face...)

I'm currently happily set on the following for 1500...but this was pre-Crones and considering I've not played any games yet...

Flyrant - 2 x Twin Devourers
Hive Tyrant - Twin Devourers, Heavy Venom Cannon, Hive Commander
*Tyrant Guard

Venomthrope
Venomthrope

30 Termagants
Tervigon

2 Carnifexes - 2 x Twin Devourers
2 Carnifexes - 2 x Twin Devourers

Honestly thinking of splitting one brood into two single Carnifexes and then taking the points for the second and getting 2 Crones instead, losing Hive Commander as well.

Thoughts?

Razerous wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Almost tempted to see what folk could come up with at 1500 points here - bearing in mind that Escalation is allowed (though I'd not be fielding any superheavies). And I know there are Baneblades and Stompas present...

Spoiler:

Dual Flyrants
3 Single Zoeys
2x10 Termagaunts
Exocrine
(Skyblight)
3x 10 Gargs
2x Harpies
1x Crone

= 1465

I still think Zoeys are amazing and always underestimated. Exocrine & zoeys fill the ap2/3 gap left by the rest of the army. Plus synapse.

Zoeys aren't as good as they would seem on the surface. They have to make a psychic test which they fail 1/6 of the time. Then the opponent has a deny the witch which can easily be buffed by many armies, but even the basic deny the witch is going to knock out 1/6 of the zoey's shooting. Then they have to roll to hit, which they will miss 1/3 of the time. Then they have to roll to glance or pen which they will fail 1/6 of the time (because they don't have speed to get back or even side armor). Also they will kill themselves in two turns 1/36 of the time, and more often if they manage to make it to turn 5.

So their effective armor penning is: 5/6 (psychic test) * 5/6 (deny the witch) * 2/3 (roll to hit) * 5/6 (roll to glance / pen) = 250/648 = 38.58%. That isn't very good, especially given that they move slow, and can only shoot within 18". You would be better off with Crones. Haywire missiles hit 1/2 of the time, and glance or pen 5/6 of the time with an effectiveness of 5/12 = 41.67% plus a crone is harder to hit, can fire 2 missiles, can vector strike, and can Smash. Still not great, but way better than Zoeys, and way more reliable because the opponent can't get deny the witch buffs.

I would also comment that Zoeys now seem to be better used for their secondary Psychic Power - Warp Blast is all well and good but very short ranged and as pointed out above, not terribly reliable. It's a lesson a Daemon playing friend of mine learned about Pink Horrors - one roll of a 6 neuters an entire unit's firepower.

However, the other Psychic Powers - Dominion, Onslaught, Catalyst...all very worthwhile and DTW proof as well. Dominion creates a larger Synapse bubble - which is becoming vital with the amount of flyers and outflankers we are starting to field now, Onslaught helps the Dakkafexes and Tyrannofexes advance and Catalyst is a lifesaver for everything...

Alright, so after a lot of thought and lurking on this thread, I have decided to piece together two lists. One utilizes the new Skyblight Swarm formation, while the other utilizes the Living Artillery Node formation. Let me hear what you think. Both lists are 1,850.

Skyblight Swarm:

H.Q.
Hive Tyrant
- Wings
- TL Devourers

Troops
Termagant Brood
- 30x Termagants
- 10x Devourers
- 20x Spinefists

Tervigon
- Scything Talons

Elites
Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope

Heavy Support
Carnifex
- 2x TL Devourers
- Adrenal Glands

Carnifex
- 2x TL Devourers
- Adrenal Glands

The Skyblight Swarm
Hive Tyrant
- Wings
- TL Devourers

Hive Crone
Harpy
Harpy

Gargoyle Brood
- 10x Gargoyles

Gargoyle Brood
- 10x Gargoyles

Gargoyle Brood
- 10x Gargoyles


And for the second list..


H.Q.
Hive Tyrant
- Wings
- TL Devourers

Hive Tyrant
- Wings
- TL Devourers

Troops
Termagant Brood
- 30x Termagants
- 10x Devourers
- 20x Spinefists

Tervigon
- Scything Talons

Elites
Zoanthrope Brood
- 2x Zoanthropes

Venomthrope
Venomthrope

Heavy Support
Carnifex
- 2x TL Devourers

Carnifex
- 2x TL Devourers

Mawloc
- Acid Blood (needed to spend 10-15 points somewhere..)

The Living Artillery Node
Biovore
Biovore
Biovore
Exocrine
Warrior Brood
- Venom Cannon

Again, let me know what you think guys. The help is really appreciated.

Journeyman351 wrote:
The Living Artillery Node
Biovore
Biovore
Biovore
Exocrine
Warrior Brood
- Venom Cannon

They changed the rules. It is one Biovore Brood with 3 Biovores in it. You can't run 3 Biovore broods, which is a bit of a nerf, but the formation is still good.

tag8833 wrote:
Zoeys aren't as good as they would seem on the surface. They have to make a psychic test which they fail 1/6 of the time. Then the opponent has a deny the witch which can easily be buffed by many armies, but even the basic deny the witch is going to knock out 1/6 of the zoey's shooting. Then they have to roll to hit, which they will miss 1/3 of the time. Then they have to roll to glance or pen which they will fail 1/6 of the time (because they don't have speed to get back or even side armor). Also they will kill themselves in two turns 1/36 of the time, and more often if they manage to make it to turn 5.

This is a general rulebook issue with psychic shooting. They should have made it so that Witchfire powers automatically hit, or non-psykers don't get to roll DtW to balance things out.

Journeyman351 wrote:

Mawloc
- Acid Blood (needed to spend 10-15 points somewhere..)

If you have 15pts spare put Adrenal Glands on the Flyrant dude. Fleet is always useful.

xttz wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
Zoeys aren't as good as they would seem on the surface. They have to make a psychic test which they fail 1/6 of the time. Then the opponent has a deny the witch which can easily be buffed by many armies, but even the basic deny the witch is going to knock out 1/6 of the zoey's shooting. Then they have to roll to hit, which they will miss 1/3 of the time. Then they have to roll to glance or pen which they will fail 1/6 of the time (because they don't have speed to get back or even side armor). Also they will kill themselves in two turns 1/36 of the time, and more often if they manage to make it to turn 5.

This is a general rulebook issue with psychic shooting. They should have made it so that Witchfire powers automatically hit, or non-psykers don't get to roll DtW to balance things out.

Journeyman351 wrote:

Mawloc
- Acid Blood (needed to spend 10-15 points somewhere..)

If you have 15pts spare put Adrenal Glands on the Flyrant dude. Fleet is always useful.

On just ONE of the two Flyrants? Hmm, that is a possibility. I guess they'll each be doing their own thing anyways.

tag8833 wrote:

Journeyman351 wrote:
The Living Artillery Node
Biovore
Biovore
Biovore
Exocrine
Warrior Brood
- Venom Cannon

They changed the rules. It is one Biovore Brood with 3 Biovores in it. You can't run 3 Biovore broods, which is a bit of a nerf, but the formation is still good.

Hmm.. alright then, still three Biovores nonetheless!

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Interesting - though the situation I am looking at sadly had no Formations allowed for the sake of the league (but he allowed Escalation. -_- < My face...)

I'm currently happily set on the following for 1500...but this was pre-Crones and considering I've not played any games yet...

Flyrant - 2 x Twin Devourers
Hive Tyrant - Twin Devourers, Heavy Venom Cannon, Hive Commander
*Tyrant Guard

Venomthrope
Venomthrope

30 Termagants
Tervigon

2 Carnifexes - 2 x Twin Devourers
2 Carnifexes - 2 x Twin Devourers

Honestly thinking of splitting one brood into two single Carnifexes and then taking the points for the second and getting 2 Crones instead, losing Hive Commander as well.

Thoughts?

Yeah, you don't really have anyone for the Hive Commander to work on...I'd be happy dropping two Dakkafexen, and tossing in two Mawlocs.
I'd want to find enough to put in a Zoey...but I always want a Zoey, or two

Me personally, I would build this with 2 Dakkafex, Mawloc, and a Tyranofex, and only run the Winged Dakka'rant. But that is a "style" thing (and I'd toss in a zoey with the cost savings)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tag8833 wrote:

Razerous wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Almost tempted to see what folk could come up with at 1500 points here - bearing in mind that Escalation is allowed (though I'd not be fielding any superheavies). And I know there are Baneblades and Stompas present...

Spoiler:

Dual Flyrants
3 Single Zoeys
2x10 Termagaunts
Exocrine
(Skyblight)
3x 10 Gargs
2x Harpies
1x Crone

= 1465

I still think Zoeys are amazing and always underestimated. Exocrine & zoeys fill the ap2/3 gap left by the rest of the army. Plus synapse.

Zoeys aren't as good as they would seem on the surface. They have to make a psychic test which they fail 1/6 of the time. Then the opponent has a deny the witch which can easily be buffed by many armies, but even the basic deny the witch is going to knock out 1/6 of the zoey's shooting. Then they have to roll to hit, which they will miss 1/3 of the time. Then they have to roll to glance or pen which they will fail 1/6 of the time (because they don't have speed to get back or even side armor). Also they will kill themselves in two turns 1/36 of the time, and more often if they manage to make it to turn 5.

So their effective armor penning is: 5/6 (psychic test) * 5/6 (deny the witch) * 2/3 (roll to hit) * 5/6 (roll to glance / pen) = 250/648 = 38.58%. That isn't very good, especially given that they move slow, and can only shoot within 18". You would be better off with Crones. Haywire missiles hit 1/2 of the time, and glance or pen 5/6 of the time with an effectiveness of 5/12 = 41.67% plus a crone is harder to hit, can fire 2 missiles, can vector strike, and can Smash. Still not great, but way better than Zoeys, and way more reliable because the opponent can't get deny the witch buffs.

Minor nit pick, but you're tossing numbers around...you fail the roll 3 in 36, or 1 in 12.....not 1 in 6


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
I would also comment that Zoeys now seem to be better used for their secondary Psychic Power - Warp Blast is all well and good but very short ranged and as pointed out above, not terribly reliable. It's a lesson a Daemon playing friend of mine learned about Pink Horrors - one roll of a 6 neuters an entire unit's firepower.

However, the other Psychic Powers - Dominion, Onslaught, Catalyst...all very worthwhile and DTW proof as well. Dominion creates a larger Synapse bubble - which is becoming vital with the amount of flyers and outflankers we are starting to field now, Onslaught helps the Dakkafexes and Tyrannofexes advance and Catalyst is a lifesaver for everything...

I gotta agree, I usually break out broods to maximise rolls on the Powers of the Hive Mind chart. To me Warp Lance is pure gravy. I grab them as Synapse, that also adds Psycher ability, and has decent durability....

pinecone77 wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

Razerous wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Almost tempted to see what folk could come up with at 1500 points here - bearing in mind that Escalation is allowed (though I'd not be fielding any superheavies). And I know there are Baneblades and Stompas present...

Spoiler:

Dual Flyrants
3 Single Zoeys
2x10 Termagaunts
Exocrine
(Skyblight)
3x 10 Gargs
2x Harpies
1x Crone

= 1465

I still think Zoeys are amazing and always underestimated. Exocrine & zoeys fill the ap2/3 gap left by the rest of the army. Plus synapse.

Zoeys aren't as good as they would seem on the surface. They have to make a psychic test which they fail 1/6 of the time. Then the opponent has a deny the witch which can easily be buffed by many armies, but even the basic deny the witch is going to knock out 1/6 of the zoey's shooting. Then they have to roll to hit, which they will miss 1/3 of the time. Then they have to roll to glance or pen which they will fail 1/6 of the time (because they don't have speed to get back or even side armor). Also they will kill themselves in two turns 1/36 of the time, and more often if they manage to make it to turn 5.

So their effective armor penning is: 5/6 (psychic test) * 5/6 (deny the witch) * 2/3 (roll to hit) * 5/6 (roll to glance / pen) = 250/648 = 38.58%. That isn't very good, especially given that they move slow, and can only shoot within 18". You would be better off with Crones. Haywire missiles hit 1/2 of the time, and glance or pen 5/6 of the time with an effectiveness of 5/12 = 41.67% plus a crone is harder to hit, can fire 2 missiles, can vector strike, and can Smash. Still not great, but way better than Zoeys, and way more reliable because the opponent can't get deny the witch buffs.

Minor nit pick, but you're tossing numbers around...you fail the roll 3 in 36, or 1 in 12.....not 1 in 6

You are right. Basic math fail. Added where I should have multiplied.
So to correct my zoanthrope percentage:
11/12 (psychic test) * 5/6 (deny the witch) * 2/3 (roll to hit) * 5/6 (roll to glance / pen) = 275/648 = 42.44% which actually makes it slightly better than the crone missile.

I would still pick a Crone, because of the added mobility, but give me a crone that can fire 2 warp lances instead of tentaclids, and I would take that.

Meh, I'm still not sold on Crones, especially over Zoeys. Zoeys can't be all but killed as soon as they enter play by a Quad Gun.

 The Shadow wrote:
Meh, I'm still not sold on Crones, especially over Zoeys. Zoeys can't be all but killed as soon as they enter play by a Quad Gun.

That's the thing about Monstrous Creatures, as long as they have one wound left they are still alive at full damage ability.

Here's some funny numbers. The chance that your crone will die from a quad gun interceptor shots (assuming BS4) is about 8%. If you're playing with any kind of intelligence, you'll put your Crone with at least a toe in cover (or figure out how it can get a 4+) and that chance drops down to about 1%.

Basically, a lot has to go wrong for the Tyranid player to lose a crone to a quad gun from interceptor.

Completely anecdotal but I played with 2 x Zoey's last night long table edges and 5 x objectives against Necrons. They rolled the horror, which I should of but didn't swap for Dominion.

Warp blast missed every time and they were redundant Synapse as I had warrior's in the back field.

To be fair If I had of taken Dominion I might of saved my 8 man strong unit of Hormagaunts who killed themselves because I forgot to measure to make sure they were in 12"..

Has anyone tried Endless Swarm combo'ed with the Trygon Tunnel? That seems fun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Interesting - though the situation I am looking at sadly had no Formations allowed for the sake of the league (but he allowed Escalation. -_- < My face...)

If this is the case I would go FMC heavy (if you can). There is very little non-blast Strength D and you might do well against that meta.

 AdeptSister wrote:
Has anyone tried Endless Swarm combo'ed with the Trygon Tunnel? That seems fun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Interesting - though the situation I am looking at sadly had no Formations allowed for the sake of the league (but he allowed Escalation. -_- < My face...)

If this is the case I would go FMC heavy (if you can). There is very little non-blast Strength D and you might do well against that meta.

I think a ways upstream I posted a "concept army" called "Endless Tunnel Assault"....you might check it out for ideas


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The Shadow wrote:
Meh, I'm still not sold on Crones, especially over Zoeys. Zoeys can't be all but killed as soon as they enter play by a Quad Gun.

Yeah, Zoey vs Crone is a "style " issue mainly. Though you can get 3 Zoeys for the price of one Crone, and have a few points left over. Split into 2 Broods (1 of 2x, 1 of 1x) and that is two rolls for Powers of the Hive Mind!

They're about equal on survivability, as Fliers face special anti-flier weapons....and Zoeys are fairly robust.

So...if you have Zoeys, and like them, play Zoeys. If you have Crones and like Them, well you know...

This is a list some of my buddies worked out.

Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings. 230
Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings. 230
Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings. 230

10 Hormagaunts 50
10 Hormagaunts 50

20 Gargoyles: adrenal glands. 160
20 Gargoyles: adrenal glands. 160
20 Gargoyles: adrenal glands. 160
Hive Crone 155
Hive Crone 155
Harpy 135
Harpy 135

1,850 points

We really like the adrenal glands and slightly bumped up Gargoyles. The adrenal glands for fleet is great and let's them hurt rear armor 10 if needed.

The 3 Flyrants combined put out 36 TL BS 4 Str 6 shots, that hurts everything (nearly) to make sure that crucial target always dies. Well, most targets, you get the point.

The hormagants hopefully done eat themselves bad enough to not take objectives in the backfield, and with the +3 in run fast when needed. You could easily out gaunts in there to free up 20 points for upgrades.

The Zoeys are okay, but backfield synapse in this kind of army is kinda wasted.

 timwrightii wrote:

Spoiler:

This is a list some of my buddies worked out.

Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings. 230
Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings. 230
Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings. 230

10 Hormagaunts 50
10 Hormagaunts 50

20 Gargoyles: adrenal glands. 160
20 Gargoyles: adrenal glands. 160
20 Gargoyles: adrenal glands. 160
Hive Crone 155
Hive Crone 155
Harpy 135
Harpy 135

1,850 points

We really like the adrenal glands and slightly bumped up Gargoyles. The adrenal glands for fleet is great and let's them hurt rear armor 10 if needed.

The 3 Flyrants combined put out 36 TL BS 4 Str 6 shots, that hurts everything (nearly) to make sure that crucial target always dies. Well, most targets, you get the point.

The hormagants hopefully done eat themselves bad enough to not take objectives in the backfield, and with the +3 in run fast when needed. You could easily out gaunts in there to free up 20 points for upgrades.

The Zoeys are okay, but backfield synapse in this kind of army is kinda wasted.

If you aren't running backfield synapse, might I suggest genesteelers over HGaunts. Or perhaps a Warrior brood + a min squad of Tgaunts for the same price. I feel like it is worth it for 5 Gargoyles.

It depends on the rest of your armies composition and tactics you want to be available.

For an endless swarm army, Zoanthropes will provide better synergy acting as both anti-tank and synapse along with possible buffs. For an army with several FMCs already I'd go with Crones for their synergy because synapse is not as important, the're decent for ant-vehicle and can keep up with the rest of your main attack force. They are different tools for different jobs that happen to share anti-tank capabilities and similar survivability. Other than those two things they are so completely different I say they're not really comparable. The question with that in mind is not 'which is better?' but instead 'which one complements my army better?'.

When is the third dataslate scheduled? I am hoping it will allow me to field as few models as possible. So far the Living Artillery is my best bet.

At 2000 points there are 3 things that are a must in my opinion in a flyers list:

3 Flyrants
3 Venonthorpes
60 gargoyles
20 Termagants

then I would suggest to buy a fortification to hide in or behind

In my case that is 2x Vengance Weapon batterie cause of the 4+ they give to the units behind (2+) with the venoms and the ap3 large blast that this army lacks.

After that fill in the flyers you feel like.

The 3 Flyrants played carefully using cover and Venomthorpes should be more than enought synapse for the whole game, 3 Venomthorpes are in my opinion the Key of this new codex.

The other potential weakness of our codex, the scoring troops are solved with the gargoyles so you can focus in the game itself and forget about been taken away your troops. with 60 gargoyles returning on a 4+ tervigon is no longer necesary.

Every single unit in this army SHOULD be within 6`` of a Venonthorpe in the first 3 turns of the game unless you go first, enemy have a lot of reserves and plan to fly out in turn 2 with your FMC to return in 3rd. Otherwise there is no reason why with a little bit of carefull positioning you shouldnt have all your sweeties behind a 3+/2+ cover safe for most of the game.

Naw wrote:
When is the third dataslate scheduled? I am hoping it will allow me to field as few models as possible. So far the Living Artillery is my best bet.

Given the release dates for the previous 2 slates, I would expect #3 to preorder in the 3rd week of March for download on the 29th.

Edit to add:

So while I'm at a keyboard I thought i'd recount with the group what happens with tyranids when you DON'T optimize your list. I'll preface this quick blurb - My tyranids have been mostly undefeated by my current gaming group throughout 6th edition (see sig), so every once in awhile I will take softball lists on purpose just to see what happens. Last night was one such list..

We're restarting our local campaign (nothing narrative, more of a league really) and the weekly game was set to 1000 points. My first list for this was:

Flyrant
Flyrant
Crone
Crone
Harpy
10x Termagants
10x Termagants
Warriors

No formations, just pure codex cutthroat FMC @ 1000 points. It would have been brutal. But then i looked and said, is this the list i want to bring in a casual setting? So i completely flip-flopped and instead of bringing a mediocre list, I took instead:

Warrior Prime, LW/BS, ST, Frags
5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers
5x Genestealers
2x Carnifex, ST/ST, AG
2x Carnifex, Barbed Strangler/TL Devourers x1


I played a grey knight army running Draigo and paladins, with an inquisitor, a vindicare, and a jumping dreadknight. To make a long story short, i saw where it was heading, assaulted draigo with my carnifexes (which he promptly instant-deathed) and i conceded on turn 2. My turn 3 I would have started with 4 min-genestealer squads and nothing else on the table while he held the 4, 3, and a 2 pt objective from the scouring. It was brutal. Interestingly enough i'm not too sussed over the loss because I never expected to win that matchup anyhow. I think i'll challenge him to a rematch and bring the Flying Circus now. Haha.

A quick side-thought here about fighting an Imperial Knight. Now, obviously they are big, nasty MC hunters and want to make use of their Strength D swords.

If a Knight charges a Tervigon, or a Tyrant, or a Tyrannofex with Electroshock Grubs, does the Knight then not automatically take D3+1 Haywire hits automatically from Overwatch, and actually fails to get its 4++ (since it's not the Knight's opponent's shooting phase)?

Not an ideal situation of course, but it certainly sounds like a cheap way to strip a few Hull Points (maybe even kill the Knight if you've wounded it a bit with VS etc).

Xyptc wrote:
A quick side-thought here about fighting an Imperial Knight. Now, obviously they are big, nasty MC hunters and want to make use of their Strength D swords.

If a Knight charges a Tervigon, or a Tyrant, or a Tyrannofex with Electroshock Grubs, does the Knight then not automatically take D3+1 Haywire hits automatically from Overwatch, and actually fails to get its 4++ (since it's not the Knight's opponent's shooting phase)?

Not an ideal situation of course, but it certainly sounds like a cheap way to strip a few Hull Points (maybe even kill the Knight if you've wounded it a bit with VS etc).

d3, not d3 + 1, but yes it is a potentially effective weapon. Take a knight with say 2 HPs left, and it will not want to charge any MC with EGs. Haywire weapons are our best hope against Knights. Also keep in mind that a Knight that dies to Overwatch explodes where it originally was, not in base combat.

It has been argued deeply in other boards.... If you are using a Tyranid Flying Circus and you really should in any competitive enviroment, the best way to deal with knights is ignore them totally. They can do few vs flyers so basically they are 400 gimped points in enemy army. focus your flyers again the rest of his unnits, try to play conservative out of their melee range in case they put you to ground and engoy the massacre. In the last turn if you really feel like multiassault the knight with all your sweties.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Of course you can haiware him a little with hive crones and dakka it to death with your high movility flyers on 6´s, but I would really forget it and focus the rest of the army. Your oponent is using this super heavy hard to kill unnit because he wants you to spend a couple of shooting turns on him. Dont play his game, play yours.

Sandokann wrote:
It has been argued deeply in other boards.... If you are using a Tyranid Flying Circus and you really should in any competitive enviroment, the best way to deal with knights is ignore them totally. They can do few vs flyers so basically they are 400 gimped points in enemy army. focus your flyers again the rest of his unnits, try to play conservative out of their melee range in case they put you to ground and engoy the massacre. In the last turn if you really feel like multiassault the knight with all your sweties.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Of course you can haiware him a little with hive crones and dakka it to death with your high movility flyers on 6´s, but I would really forget it and focus the rest of the army. Your oponent is using this super heavy hard to kill unnit because he wants you to spend a couple of shooting turns on him. Dont play his game, play yours.

1 knight isn't the problem.... well it is because we suck at dealing with Mech in general, but the real problem is when we start seeing 3-5 knights on the table. What is our answer to that? Spend 2-3 turns killing one while all of our troops die, and then concede on turn 3 when the remaining knights just hang out on objectives, and we acknowledge that we can't dislodge them?

There is no way you can lose a game vs such a bad list 3 knights mean that you can ignore half of his army the first 3 turns, focus on the rest, then concentrate in 1 knight each turn. To be honest they are far from point efficient, thought they got a nice model and every1 that had read Mechanicum will die to use his own Equitus Bellum.

Sandokann wrote:
There is no way you can lose a game vs such a bad list 3 knights mean that you can ignore half of his army the first 3 turns, focus on the rest, then concentrate in 1 knight each turn. To be honest they are far from point efficient, thought they got a nice model and every1 that had read Mechanicum will die to use his own Equitus Bellum.

Good to know. Do they have mostly blast and template ranged attacks or something? Haven't seen their specs yet :( but that's what I've heard.

2-shot battle cannons, large blast meltas and heavy stubbers.

Sandokann wrote:
There is no way you can lose a game vs such a bad list 3 knights mean that you can ignore half of his army the first 3 turns, focus on the rest, then concentrate in 1 knight each turn. To be honest they are far from point efficient, thought they got a nice model and every1 that had read Mechanicum will die to use his own Equitus Bellum.

3 Knights moving 12" per turn will be on you by Turn 2 / 3 at worst. Once you get a face full of the D x3 it's over for your bugs unless you're flying.

Xyptc wrote:
A quick side-thought here about fighting an Imperial Knight. Now, obviously they are big, nasty MC hunters and want to make use of their Strength D swords.

If a Knight charges a Tervigon, or a Tyrant, or a Tyrannofex with Electroshock Grubs, does the Knight then not automatically take D3+1 Haywire hits automatically from Overwatch, and actually fails to get its 4++ (since it's not the Knight's opponent's shooting phase)?

Not an ideal situation of course, but it certainly sounds like a cheap way to strip a few Hull Points (maybe even kill the Knight if you've wounded it a bit with VS etc).

This is a very important point, and Electroshock Grubs should be an auto-take for any of these units if you know you're facing Knights.

It's worth pointing out though that the Ion Shield is only repositioned in the shooting phase, it can be used in any phase providing it's not against melee attacks. In theory there's nothing to stop it saving overwatch hits providing it's facing the same direction as the target being charged.

Well, it certainly explains why the 'nids got the new Elecrto-Gun option for Hive Guard.

Wakshaani wrote:
Well, it certainly explains why the 'nids got the new Elecrto-Gun option for Hive Guard.

It is 18" range blast. So, in order to use it, you have to be in range that the knight can charge you on its next turn, and you can't overwatch. I think the Impaler cannon might be just as good against knights, which is to say, only a little good, but at least it doesn't require LOS, and has a little better range.

If a Knight is charging a unit of hive guard...you're still pretty okay as an army.

Yep. I don't see knights in cc unless they need to be. I added electroshock to everything in my list, btw.

-Skyblight Simple -

2x Hive Tyrant, Wings, 2 TL Devourers, Electroshock Grubs 480

Venomthrope 45

Tervigon, Electroshock Grubs 205
30 Termagants, 10 Devourers 160

2x Hive Crone 310
2x Harpies, TL Heavy Venom Cannon 280

2x 10 Gargoyle Brood 120
15 Gargoyles, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs 150

One less Hive Tyrant. Funny thing. Everyone was complaining that Flyrants were over-costed, harpies were meh, crones were situational. Now the whole is obviously greater than the sum of its parts.

Scoring regenerating contest-a-proof Gargoyles.

I think the regenerate (and the contest-a-proof) rules are just icing, the ability to take mobile troops (as always, in any decent army) is key here.

This then means it is not a 'Oh, you could've got a Troop Tervigon for those two Crones'...

So, has anyone looked into the other Formations?

Some of don't feel like buying 60 gargoyles.

The Living Artillery formation is awesome for allowing extra Heavy Support units. I can finally field my Mawloc and Biovores in the same list and still have the slots to run my two Carnifices solo instead of in a brood. Twin-linked Biovores and a pinning Exocrine with twin-linked blast is just icing on the cake.

 ductvader wrote:
So, has anyone looked into the other Formations?

Some of don't feel like buying 60 gargoyles.

Lots of eyeballs at the heavy support one, as an Exocrine and three Biovores are bopth awesome and the Warrior tax isn't so bad, with the barbed strangler. These are things you mostly want anyway, but leave your precious heavy support selections open. Take a pair of these and let templatey death rain down from afar while people go, "How are Tyranid out-ranging me?!"

Endless Swarm is dripping with potential, and with a minimum cost of 360 points, it's simple to take two while still leaving half your points from a normal game for stuff that kills while the Endless take care of objectives. Kill the last guy? No problem, they're back. Don't kill them? No problem, I have an objective. EIther way's good for you.

The Warrior synapse bubble's getting the least eye-time I think. *I* like it, because I dig Warriors and my style's very much old school, and it gives you some crazy good Synapse bubbles, allowing you to do more outflankery with Raveners and Gargoyles, creating an entirely different way to play than the single Synapse blob. It's the sleeper of the set.

The Tervigon one is hit or miss, with most people unhappy with it as it doesn't give you a *scoring*, Troops-based Tervigon. There's some play with it, but it'll wind up being set aside, IMHO.

The air force is where everyone's drooling, with visions of triple Flyrants with double-down Dakka in their mind. I'm wary, simply because I'm risk-averse and don't like flying tyrants, but by far and away it seems to be the option of choice.

Wakshaani wrote:
Lots of eyeballs at the heavy support one, as an Exocrine and three Biovores are bopth awesome and the Warrior tax isn't so bad, with the barbed strangler.

The Artillery formation should really be taken with a Venom Cannon, as you're basically twin-linking it for extra precision AND getting Pinning on it, which is the main benefit of the Barbed Strangler.

Wakshaani wrote:
The Warrior synapse bubble's getting the least eye-time I think. *I* like it, because I dig Warriors and my style's very much old school, and it gives you some crazy good Synapse bubbles, allowing you to do more outflankery with Raveners and Gargoyles, creating an entirely different way to play than the single Synapse blob. It's the sleeper of the set.

The formation really suffers from the general overcosting of Warrior upgrades, and especially the Prime itself. It starts at ~400pts for a bunch of models that don't really add much to your army besides Synapse - their shooting is mediocre and getting them viable for melee costs a further fortune in points. They don't even help to fulfill your minimum troop requirement.
Maybe OK for niche lists (such as squeezing in a Prime when you want 2 Tyrants), but nothing exciting.

Wakshaani wrote:
The Tervigon one is hit or miss, with most people unhappy with it as it doesn't give you a *scoring*, Troops-based Tervigon. There's some play with it, but it'll wind up being set aside, IMHO.

There's nothing to stop the Tervigon from scoring, the 30 guant rule says "in your army" rather than in a detatchment. Unfortunately the formation is a waste of time because the upgrade is poor - you get a slightly higher average spawn rate but with a higher chance to roll doubles and menopause thanks to the forced re-roll. It should have just allowed the player to re-roll any single die from the 3D6.

Wakshaani wrote:
The air force is where everyone's drooling, with visions of triple Flyrants with double-down Dakka in their mind. I'm wary, simply because I'm risk-averse and don't like flying tyrants, but by far and away it seems to be the option of choice.

I'm of the same mindset - I don't really like FMCs and won't be buying the models I need to use that formation, despite having lots of Gargoyles. Hopefully the 3rd dataslate will do nice things with Carnifexes, Tyrannofexes and Hive Guard...

How are people finding the Tyrannofex? Anybody tried using dual T-Fexex, or rupture cannon, or both, or just something other than solo Acid Spray Tyranno? However I'm very interested in all feedback even if you are just running stock standard solo Tyranno.

I continuosly use the rupture cannon...alongside swarmy for preferred enemy...you don't have a much better tank busting gun...but don't hide him...keep pushing forward and use cluster spines and a template when you get danger close.

 SHUPPET wrote:
How are people finding the Tyrannofex? Anybody tried using dual T-Fexex, or rupture cannon, or both, or just something other than solo Acid Spray Tyranno? However I'm very interested in all feedback even if you are just running stock standard solo Tyranno.

I have used dual Tyrannofex several times, and it is VERY matchup dependent. Vs Tau, IG, Eldar, and most armies it will absolutely rock face. Necrons it can withstand shooting, but beware the Wraiths in CC. Also, beware SM with Grav centurions. Other than these, however, it provides a heavy brick that you can chuck at any opponent that they will struggle heavily to deal with, and it can clear out infantry with ease.

I'm going to be playing a 3000pt double FoC game against vanilla CSMs.

We do have model restraints due to $$$. For instance, I only have 3 Flyrants, he only has 2 heldrakes.

But this is the list I'm thinking of running. Haven't added up point totals (dex is over a friends house atm so I can't) and I'm assuming zero upgrades (which isn't realistic for 3000pts) but wanted to share my thoughts so far.

And no, this isn't escalation / apoc. This is going to be a huge, multihour game. I really should make a battle report.



HQs

Flyrant
Flyrant
Flyrant (Skyblight Formation)
Swarmlord
Deathleaper (Probably my best choice, though Tyranid Prime / OOE are also possible)

X3 Tyrant Guard (Swarmlord)


Elites (this is by far my weakest section. Really wanted a haruspex here.

Venomthrope
Venomthrope
X3 Hive Guard
Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope

Troops (keeping Troops low. Gargoyles can hyper-capture with skyblight and essentially have endless swarm. I may end up dropping a Tervigon completly but I do like having reliable synapse in my deployment zone)

(Thanks Jy2 for pointing out 4 Troop choices as mandatory. Still keeping it simple.)

30 Termagaunts
10 Termagaunts
10 Termagaunts
1 Tervigon

Fast Attack
2 Crone (Skyblight)
1 Harpy (Skyblight)
10 Gargoyles (Skyblight)
10 Gargoyles (Skyblight)
10 Gargoyles (Skyblight)
1 Harpy / Crone (haven't decided)
9 Ravengers + 1 Red Terror

Heavy Support
Exocrine
Exocrine
Mawloc
Mawloc

Here we have another Skyblight Tyranid battle report, courtesy of jifel. Check it out.


Tyranids vs Tau 1850, Skyblight test game!

Megamanrocks wrote:
I'm going to be playing a 3000pt double FoC game against vanilla CSMs.

We do have model restraints due to $$$. For instance, I only have 3 Flyrants, he only has 2 heldrakes.

But this is the list I'm thinking of running. Haven't added up point totals (dex is over a friends house atm so I can't) and I'm assuming zero upgrades (which isn't realistic for 3000pts) but wanted to share my thoughts so far.

And no, this isn't escalation / apoc. This is going to be a huge, multihour game. I really should make a battle report.



HQs

Flyrant
Flyrant
Flyrant (Skyblight Formation)
Swarmlord
Deathleaper (Probably my best choice, though Tyranid Prime / OOE are also possible)

X3 Tyrant Guard (Swarmlord)


Elites (this is by far my weakest section. Really wanted a haruspex here.

Venomthrope
Venomthrope
X3 Hive Guard
Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope

Troops (keeping Troops low. Gargoyles can hyper-capture with skyblight and essentially have endless swarm. I may end up dropping a Tervigon completly but I do like having reliable synapse in my deployment zone)

30 Termagaunts
1 Tervigon

Fast Attack
2 Crone (Skyblight)
1 Harpy (Skyblight)
10 Gargoyles (Skyblight)
10 Gargoyles (Skyblight)
10 Gargoyles (Skyblight)
1 Harpy / Crone (haven't decided)
9 Ravengers + 1 Red Terror

Heavy Support
Exocrine
Exocrine
Mawloc
Mawloc

The list is illegal as you need 4 troop choices, not including the gargoyles.

 ductvader wrote:
I continuosly use the rupture cannon...alongside swarmy for preferred enemy...you don't have a much better tank busting gun...but don't hide him...keep pushing forward and use cluster spines and a template when you get danger close.

You run Swarmlord, Exocrines, and Tfex with rupture Cannon. And you are also the guy who posted the super awesome Ravener list:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/580517.page

Would you mind sharing what your typical Swarmlord / Exocrine / TFex list looks like? What sort of hard counters do you run into?

(Edited out)

Megamanrocks wrote:
Oh. You need 4 for double? Well then, Easy fix.

Troops

10 Termagaunts
10 Termagaunts
10 Termagaunts
Tervigon

No actual changes. Just worth more for Purge the Alien.

Yeah, it's an easy fix. However, you still need 1x30 gants to make your tervie into a troop. So this is what you need to make it legal:

30 Termagaunts
10 Termagaunts
10 Termagaunts
Tervigon

tag8833 wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
I continuosly use the rupture cannon...alongside swarmy for preferred enemy...you don't have a much better tank busting gun...but don't hide him...keep pushing forward and use cluster spines and a template when you get danger close.

You run Swarmlord, Exocrines, and Tfex with rupture Cannon. And you are also the guy who posted the super awesome Ravener list:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/580517.page

Would you mind sharing what your typical Swarmlord / Exocrine / TFex list looks like? What sort of hard counters do you run into?

Does this qualify you as a groupie or a stalker? Either way, I'm quite flattered.



I will be sure to post my list after I get out of work. Thanks for the interest!

 jy2 wrote:

Megamanrocks wrote:
Oh. You need 4 for double? Well then, Easy fix.

Troops

10 Termagaunts
10 Termagaunts
10 Termagaunts
Tervigon

No actual changes. Just worth more for Purge the Alien.

Yeah, it's an easy fix. However, you still need 1x30 gants to make your tervie into a troop. So this is what you need to make it legal:

30 Termagaunts
10 Termagaunts
10 Termagaunts
Tervigon

Baka. You're right.

Hmm. I really, really hate Tervigons sometimes.
Yes, 30 / 10 / 10 is the way to fix it.

Hey folks just put up a list using the new endless swarm formation. Any hints/tips?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/584120.page

I just love this formation it gives me all my wee bugs which is how i generally like to go. WoN devilgants are just awesome sounding.

cheers

 SHUPPET wrote:
How are people finding the Tyrannofex? Anybody tried using dual T-Fexex, or rupture cannon, or both, or just something other than solo Acid Spray Tyranno? However I'm very interested in all feedback even if you are just running stock standard solo Tyranno.

My "standard" 3 heavy choices are Tyranofex; Adrenal, Thorax Hive, Big Wormey (Trygon Prime) and Mawloc. I am tempted to Proxy my Tervigon as a second Tyrano once I get back to playing....at low point games that would totally Rawk at higher point games I believe it would still Rawk

pinecone77 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
How are people finding the Tyrannofex? Anybody tried using dual T-Fexex, or rupture cannon, or both, or just something other than solo Acid Spray Tyranno? However I'm very interested in all feedback even if you are just running stock standard solo Tyranno.

My "standard" 3 heavy choices are Tyranofex; Adrenal, Thorax Hive, Big Wormey (Trygon Prime) and Mawloc. I am tempted to Proxy my Tervigon as a second Tyrano once I get back to playing....at low point games that would totally Rawk at higher point games I believe it would still Rawk

I have a 2500 point game coming up in a week's time against some Dark Angels.

Surprisingly not going double FOC either...

My list for it?

Flyrant - 2 x Twin Devourers, Electroshock, Hive Commander
Flyrant - 2 x Twin Devourers, Electroshock

2 Zoanthropes
2 Zoanthropes
2 Venomthropes

30 Termagants - 10 Devourers
Tervigon
15 Hormagaunts
15 Hormagaunts

18 Gargoyles
Crone
Crone

2 Carnifexes - 2 x Twin Devourers
2 Carnifexes - 2 x Twin Devourers
Tyrannofex - Acid Spray, Shreddershard

 jifel wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
How are people finding the Tyrannofex? Anybody tried using dual T-Fexex, or rupture cannon, or both, or just something other than solo Acid Spray Tyranno? However I'm very interested in all feedback even if you are just running stock standard solo Tyranno.

I have used dual Tyrannofex several times, and it is VERY matchup dependent. Vs Tau, IG, Eldar, and most armies it will absolutely rock face. Necrons it can withstand shooting, but beware the Wraiths in CC. Also, beware SM with Grav centurions. Other than these, however, it provides a heavy brick that you can chuck at any opponent that they will struggle heavily to deal with, and it can clear out infantry with ease.

Dual Rupture Cannon T-Fex? or Acid Sprayers?

i run two tfexes with acid spray, AG and egrubs or shredder. works very well. what does get an armor save you just drown in wounds.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 jifel wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
How are people finding the Tyrannofex? Anybody tried using dual T-Fexex, or rupture cannon, or both, or just something other than solo Acid Spray Tyranno? However I'm very interested in all feedback even if you are just running stock standard solo Tyranno.

I have used dual Tyrannofex several times, and it is VERY matchup dependent. Vs Tau, IG, Eldar, and most armies it will absolutely rock face. Necrons it can withstand shooting, but beware the Wraiths in CC. Also, beware SM with Grav centurions. Other than these, however, it provides a heavy brick that you can chuck at any opponent that they will struggle heavily to deal with, and it can clear out infantry with ease.

Dual Rupture Cannon T-Fex? or Acid Sprayers?

Acid Spray, much more worth the points in my mind.

 ductvader wrote:
I continuosly use the rupture cannon...alongside swarmy for preferred enemy...you don't have a much better tank busting gun...but don't hide him...keep pushing forward and use cluster spines and a template when you get danger close.

I cant help but think that taking a Swarmlord for this purpose (or any purpose at all) is a colossal waste of points.... over 100 points more than a Hive Tyrant for ap 2 swords instead of ap 3, one more crappy psychic power, and the POSSIBILITY to RE-ROLL one of your Rupture Cannon MISSED shots?... points efficiency wise you would be better off just spending another 100 or so and getting another entire Tyrannofex for 2 more Rupture Cannon shots guaranteed every turn, a thorax swarm, and 6 more S6 T6 +2 wounds to boot.

Just so you're aware, SHUPPET, all MC attacks are AP2 since they have smash.

Hey all, not really a Tyranid player here (I have about 500 points, and they get rarely played), but I've just finished reading every page of this thread. This is just a much more interesting problem than figuring out how to make the most out of uber unit X. I've been a Guard player for 15 years, and started Tau when they first came out. I built a modest Eldar army late in 4th. So basically, every one of my armies, in turn, got the awesome treatment. I remember when winning with Tau used to mean something. Anyway, my Tyranid experience is almost nothing, but this thread has made me dig out my small pile of bugs, but the new book, and start thinking about how I would try to win with them. That opinion is mostly worthless, but I can maybe offer some useful thoughts on some units from the point of view of the opposition, along with random theorizing.

Here's a few thoughts I've had just looking through the book:

Lictors seem cool and really nifty. The ability to start as infiltrators seems like a great option. I also think having 3 in a brood makes them interesting. As 6th is a 'shooting edition', most people don't have very good close combat units. 3 Lictors as one unit can put a pretty good hurt on a lot of backfield units, and take a pretty significant amount of firepower to put down. Even AT weapons that will double them out are only taking out 50 points a pop (if not saved via cover), which is in the same ballpark as a single wound on a Carnifex or Tyrant. Not great, but not the end of the world. From the point of view of the Tau, they pose a lot of difficulties, because it will take Markerlights to really kill them efficiently, but you're probably wanting Markerlights to go into much bigger, nastier, more expensive units, and there's only so many to go around. Other random thought: 3 Lictors are really close to doing 2 HP against a Knight in close combat on the charge. Rending S6, man.

Speaking of big blasts: I think one of the advantages of the Carnifex with Stranglethorn cannon is that first turn opening salvo. It does delay getting up close (in the absence of Onslaught), but being able to reduce the incoming Markerlights can pay big dividends over time. It's pretty handy against Guard blobs too, which can be pretty nasty in their own right vs Nids. They way I see it, is if I know you can't touch me turn 1, I have a lot more deployment options, I can put my guys in maximum offensive firepower positions. If S6 pie plates are headed my way, I'll have to acknowledge that and deploy more defensively.

Fast Attack Spore Mines: If you've got the slot, these things seem like a ton of fun. Cheap, don't give up KPs, obnoxious as hell. With widespread Lictor coverage, it seems like a pretty neat tool in the box. I see them most useful for boxing units in so they can't get away from something nasty, or blocking off the easiest route to an objective.

Anyway, I might be completely off base with these thoughts, but I thought I'd throw them out there.

Hive Tyrants are AP 2 anyway thanks to Smash, so it's actually more of a waste than you think.

Deathleaper'd

Yeah good point. So basically he is the third most overpriced unit in the dex, after Pyrovores and then Rippers.

pretty much.

You know if you really want to use a dataslate other than skyblight ...

HQ
Tyranid Prime, Miasma Cannon 150
Tervigon, Elecroshock Grubs, Adrenal Glands 220

Troops:
2x 30 Termagants 240
2x Tervigon, Electroshock Grubs 410

Fast Attack:
5 Shrikes, Rending Claws, Lashwhip and Bonesword 190

Endless Swarm:
3x 20 Hormagants 300
3x 20 Termagants 240
3 Warriors, Barbed Strangler 100

- 1750 -

I know Tervigons got nerfed a bit but you start with 180 gants on the table and eleven scoring units and you will spawn at lest three or four more scoring units and another 20 - 40 gants and a lot of them will respawn. Who cares about your opponents flyers ... they cannot even touch down when you cover the table, lol. You should have 200+ gaunts in play turn two ...

Endless Swarm is 3 Termagants, 3 Hormagaunts - they confirmed this.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
I continuosly use the rupture cannon...alongside swarmy for preferred enemy...you don't have a much better tank busting gun...but don't hide him...keep pushing forward and use cluster spines and a template when you get danger close.

I cant help but think that taking a Swarmlord for this purpose (or any purpose at all) is a colossal waste of points.... over 100 points more than a Hive Tyrant for ap 2 swords instead of ap 3, one more crappy psychic power, and the POSSIBILITY to RE-ROLL one of your Rupture Cannon MISSED shots?... points efficiency wise you would be better off just spending another 100 or so and getting another entire Tyrannofex for 2 more Rupture Cannon shots guaranteed every turn, a thorax swarm, and 6 more S6 T6 +2 wounds to boot.

Not that I think Swarmy is a good buy, I just want to point a few things out.

He has 1 more wound, his swords have Instant Death not just on 6s, he can give Preferred Enemy to a squad which is actually re-rolling all 1s to hit and to wound (Master-Crafted is the single re-roll), He's WS9 compared to a normal Tyrants 8 which is the best WS jump in the game as it makes WS4 hit you on 5s instead of 4s. He adds +1 to your reserve rolls, can give Monster Hunter or Furious Charge to a unit not just Preferred Enemy, he has a 4++ in cc and has an 18" Synapse. So he's a little better than what you described (As it was already pointed out Tyrants are AP2 as well) but I would still never use him outside of a casual game as he's a slow as gak, has no shooting unless you roll a 6 for his powers, is horridly over costed compared to a Flyrant and without Iron Arm he's not even that scary in CC anymore.

Oh and I'd put him at 5th most over costed. Genestealers (Seriously, compare these to Daemonettes or Necron Wraiths) > Sky-Slashers > Rippers > Pyrovores > Swarmy.

SHUPPET wrote:How are people finding the Tyrannofex? Anybody tried using dual T-Fexex, or rupture cannon, or both, or just something other than solo Acid Spray Tyranno? However I'm very interested in all feedback even if you are just running stock standard solo Tyranno.

I ran three games with three of them at 1850, all with regeneration, acid spray, thorax weapon and AG as a test list. They did very well against SM(had two games with vs them - Salamaders and DA) even with graveguns and twin linked melta madness mostly due to good psyker support (2 Flyrants, 3 units of 1 zoanthrope) which added catalyst/onslaught to them. The melta heavy salamander army was a close match but I still had 2 left on the board in the end.

T6+6wounds+2 up armor+Regeneration=very difficult for many armies to deal with

That was a list for testing purposes and I would not recommend three of them for an all-comers list(though it was good lolz) at less than 2k unless you like playing rock-paper-scissors. One or two at most I'd say unless you have a good idea of what you're going to be up against.

I highly recommend Regeneration and psyker support with these things. It makes your opponent feel forced to either focus fire on one of them or try to ignore them(usually a terrible idea) and with the T6 and 2+ armor much of their fire is wasted. Add Catalyst and they start to feel like it's hopeless. On average out of 6 S8+ AP2 hits one will fail to wound and two will be canceled by FNP. My DA opponent got 6 gravgun wounds on one of my T-fexs at one point. FNP let me ignore one wound and then on my turn that T-fex made that gravgun SM unit disappear under Shredder Shard Beatles and Acid Spray ...and then regenerated a wound. Then next turn regenerated another... He was less than pleased and ended up conceding on turn 4 without having destroyed a single unit of mine.

Their great bullies vs most infantry with Acid Spray + Thorax Weapon but not so great in CC so try to keep them from getting tar-pitted and out of assault with scary CC units in general(though still a MC so Smash away on the Vehicles/Fortifications/etc).

This is what I've learned from the few games I've played with them, I hope it helps.

 Lansirill wrote:
Yeah, that 4+ is nice, but it's by no means reliable. You have a 1/8 chance of failing to bring back a single unit, which is slightly lower than a 1/6 chance. I know I wouldn't want to base my strategy of winning on rolling a 6 on a single d6. I'm not trying to suggest that these recurring troops are BAD, far from it, but I'd only be comfortable assuming a single unit comes back and I'd want to be sure I could handle the game if none of them did.

You went from a 12.5% chance of failure to a 17% chance of failure to a 83% chance of failure all through... odd... estimation

The one thing that makes me sad is that Veterans night (tournament held over the course of 3 months) at my LGS, does not allow Dataslates at all. No Escalation, no Stronghold Assault, no Dataslates, no Forgeworld. Codexes, and Codex Supplements only.

You should tell them to make it fair(ish) and ban allies as well. A tournament that lets Taudar in but bans Deathleaper Assassin Brood is a tournament that needs to rethink its priorities.

 Zande4 wrote:


Not that I think Swarmy is a good buy, I just want to point a few things out.

He has 1 more wound, his swords have Instant Death not just on 6s, he can give Preferred Enemy to a squad which is actually re-rolling all 1s to hit and to wound (Master-Crafted is the single re-roll), He's WS9 compared to a normal Tyrants 8 which is the best WS jump in the game as it makes WS4 hit you on 5s instead of 4s. He adds +1 to your reserve rolls, can give Monster Hunter or Furious Charge to a unit not just Preferred Enemy, he has a 4++ in cc and has an 18" Synapse. So he's a little better than what you described (As it was already pointed out Tyrants are AP2 as well) but I would still never use him outside of a casual game as he's a slow as gak, has no shooting unless you roll a 6 for his powers, is horridly over costed compared to a Flyrant and without Iron Arm he's not even that scary in CC anymore.

Oh and I'd put him at 5th most over costed. Genestealers (Seriously, compare these to Daemonettes or Necron Wraiths) > Sky-Slashers > Rippers > Pyrovores > Swarmy.

I know you don't think the Swarmlord is good and you were just pointing out some bonuses, but , a lot of that isn't really fair to use as a selling point. Sure he has a point more initiative, Tyrant can take the Lash Whip and be up 2 points of initiative on the Swarmlord and still be 100 points cheaper. Norn crown gets me another 6" Synapse on Swarmy and I'm still cheaper (not that I ever would). I can even then take 2 more wounds in the form of a Tyrant guard and STILL be cheaper. Alien Cunning was SOMETIMES worth the 25 points last edition, and even then only when running Drop Pod Zoeys & a Doom and at least 1 other deepstriker. We have none of that this edition. We do have some reservers like outflanking troops and Mawlocs which could make the ability useful, but to say Swarmlord is out of place in this list would be an understatement, especially since he takes up one of your Flyrant slots. Combat kill I'll give to you - once he gets there, the difference between him and 1 Tyrant will be noticeable. But considering for 40 points more I could just take 2 naked Tyrants - it almost makes those differences look pretty insubstantial.

While I agree about Skyslashers, I was including them as Rippers tbh, I mean who the hell thinks Rippers are overpriced but thinks Skyslashers are a good buy? They are just worse rippers! But as for Genestealers - there is no way I would take Swarmy over 20 Genestealers Absolutely no way. I'd even save 5 points.

You act like all I do is give preferred enemy.

Swarmy has a 50% chance of getting every power on the table. Which means a higher chance of getting Catalyst, Onslaught, and Paroxysm...and you can use them all in a turn.

The beauty in the buffs is choice. If I took two tyrannos every day I'd run into armies that I didn't need them for. Instead I can just PE a tyranno for a turn and make sure he hits...the payout on this tends to be better with Exos but you see what I mean....now as I get closer to the enemy I switch PE to my hormagaunts...boom...now the horms are making money.

I don't think you're factoring in all the points you save on things like taking horms bare and just putting PE on them...or Warp Blasting Zoeys that reroll to wound when you need some 3+ dead this turn.

I am a player of utility. I like to have the right tool for the job rather than just one giant hammer.

Well, I didn't act like all he does is give preferred enemy. I made quite a list of all the differences between Tyrants and Swarmy.

I am a player of utility. I like to have the right tool for the job rather than just one giant hammer.

This makes sense. Swarmlord can do a bit of everything, and you have a lot to expect for 300 points. He does have a lot of utility - doesn't make anything said about him being overpriced inaccurate. I can see the attraction and the reason for taking him, I just can't justify the points.

 SHUPPET wrote:

I am a player of utility. I like to have the right tool for the job rather than just one giant hammer.

This makes sense. Swarmlord can do a bit of everything, and you have a lot to expect for 300 points. He does have a lot of utility - doesn't make anything said about him being overpriced inaccurate. I can see the attraction and the reason for taking him, I just can't justify the points.

Indeed, point for point he's actually quite impossible to compare to a standard Hive Tyrant due to consistent and hopefully properly timed buffs that you're slinging back and forth. a 50% chance of FnP on him is enough for me. And being a walkrant you're much more likely to get use out of that paroxysm.

The Swarmlord would need to be a lot more impressive for me to not be using that slot for a Flyrant in anything but a low-comp game.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The Swarmlord would need to be a lot more impressive for me to not be using that slot for a Flyrant in anything but a low-comp game.

To each their own.

I personally find my games being harder to win as I spend the points on a second Flyrant...but I have been playing a lot of games without any of them.