You will notice I have 150 gants before I even spawn. I had my Prime and thirty termagants in reserve with my Trygon. I played very aggressively. I knew if I lost a few squads of gants some would return and I had a tunnel up as well. The3 list also has six sources of synapse. Now my only flyer defense was positioning ... that is having up to 200 ganst on the table not allowing it to land where it wanted to. I had no real way of killing the storm raven but everything else was fair game on the table so I just went after the troops. Really he could not do a lot to stop me. Getting linebreaker and holding all the objectives was fairly easy. I lost a lot of models early ... a lot. But then I had a lot of models so it really did not matter. My Prime just hid in squads ... he hopped about a bit wwhen he had to. Now Mephiston was a pita, the storm raven was a pita but really BA is not the army it once was so I don't know that I peoved anything with the list. It was a pain moving the models though. Jeez my turns were long. Now the list is ot even optimized really. That said it worked rather well against a decent if not OPMeq list.
Judging by the picture they've gone for, on the announcement post, I'm expecting to see a Tyrant, Tyrant ?Guard formation and a Venomthrope formation of sorts.
Considering we've seen variations on old Apoc formations (Vanguard Infestation and Endless Swarm), I wouldn't be surprised if part 3 has toned-down versions for Living Fortress (Hive Tyrant and bodyguards) or the Carnifex Crusher Brood. Which would be awesome...
It was different on the itunes one to the ebook one, now they've both been fixed to say 3 broods.
The Living Artillery Node has also been fixed to clarify the Biovores are 1 unit.
It was different on the itunes one to the ebook one, now they've both been fixed to say 3 broods.
The Living Artillery Node has also been fixed to clarify the Biovores are 1 unit.
This.
As to the list itself. I had tried a swarmlord in it. I had tried a a bastion and a venomthrope. What I found was that I needed a trygon (for the tunnel) in some games and I needed more fast support (shrikes). Adrenals were added when swarmy was dropped because I have to at least threaten vehicles. My Prime is okayg - I could have it with Maw-Claws, Lashwhip/Bonesword/Adrenals but he is not using the adrenals hidden in a squad. I might make that change if I feel like remodeling and playing the list again. But the effort it takes to play so many models in a game is just daunting and tiring.
It seems as though GW is REALLY pushing for Warriors to be good, seeing as they are apart of many of the new formations. I think I'm okay with this too, because I love the role the Warriors have fluff-wise, and I don't feel like it was conveyed properly within the last two editions. They should be much more BA than what they are.
Journeyman351 wrote: It seems as though GW is REALLY pushing for Warriors to be good, seeing as they are apart of many of the new formations. I think I'm okay with this too, because I love the role the Warriors have fluff-wise, and I don't feel like it was conveyed properly within the last two editions. They should be much more BA than what they are.
Well, you only need 10 Warriors max to run any of them...having a unit of warriors and a prime isn't a bad deal.
tetrisphreak wrote: Just saying, I predicted the subterranean swarm. I'm eager to use that one, I just wonder how many raveners it will require.
I'm looking forward to using this too. Raveners suffer from S8vsT4 syndrome, but with a load of Trygons to the face suddenly the opponent has real trouble picking their targets.
Here's hoping that the sudden eruption of so many burrowers causes models within a certain distance to only fire Snap Shots for a turn. That would make it viable, right?
tetrisphreak wrote: Just saying, I predicted the subterranean swarm. I'm eager to use that one, I just wonder how many raveners it will require.
Here's hoping that the sudden eruption of so many burrowers causes models within a certain distance to only fire Snap Shots for a turn. That would make it viable, right?
The existing Apoc version of the formation forces nearby units to take a pinning test as the burrowers arrive, and gives them Shrouded for protection. I wouldn't be surprised to see one of these options (or Stealth).
Eldercaveman wrote: Judging by the picture they've gone for, on the announcement post, I'm expecting to see a Tyrant, Tyrant ?Guard formation and a Venomthrope formation of sorts.
Oh man, that right there would be a HUGE boon for walking tyrants if they did that. Buy a Hive Tyrant without wings, give him three Tyrant Guard, and you could add a Venomthrope to the squad for 50 pts. A Venomthrope that can't be sniped out by Tau missiles or Wave Serpent waves? *instant* credibility, right then and there.
Eldercaveman wrote: Judging by the picture they've gone for, on the announcement post, I'm expecting to see a Tyrant, Tyrant ?Guard formation and a Venomthrope formation of sorts.
Oh man, that right there would be a HUGE boon for walking tyrants if they did that. Buy a Hive Tyrant without wings, give him three Tyrant Guard, and you could add a Venomthrope to the squad for 50 pts. A Venomthrope that can't be sniped out by Tau missiles or Wave Serpent waves? *instant* credibility, right then and there.
Both of those things ignore cover though, the Venomthrope wouldn't add anything to squad against them.
Eldercaveman wrote: Judging by the picture they've gone for, on the announcement post, I'm expecting to see a Tyrant, Tyrant ?Guard formation and a Venomthrope formation of sorts.
Oh man, that right there would be a HUGE boon for walking tyrants if they did that. Buy a Hive Tyrant without wings, give him three Tyrant Guard, and you could add a Venomthrope to the squad for 50 pts. A Venomthrope that can't be sniped out by Tau missiles or Wave Serpent waves? *instant* credibility, right then and there.
Both of those things ignore cover though, the Venomthrope wouldn't add anything to squad against them.
But if they form up into a single brood the Venomthrope suddenly has 3 Tyrant Guard to take the hits first and a Hive Tyrant to soak some wounds as well. I think this is what the previous sentence is going for. True, tau missiles and wave serpent waves ignore cover but the Venomthrope is suddenly safe and can still project his Shrouding to other nearby units!
Eldercaveman wrote: Judging by the picture they've gone for, on the announcement post, I'm expecting to see a Tyrant, Tyrant ?Guard formation and a Venomthrope formation of sorts.
Oh man, that right there would be a HUGE boon for walking tyrants if they did that. Buy a Hive Tyrant without wings, give him three Tyrant Guard, and you could add a Venomthrope to the squad for 50 pts. A Venomthrope that can't be sniped out by Tau missiles or Wave Serpent waves? *instant* credibility, right then and there.
Both of those things ignore cover though, the Venomthrope wouldn't add anything to squad against them.
But if they form up into a single brood the Venomthrope suddenly has 3 Tyrant Guard to take the hits first and a Hive Tyrant to soak some wounds as well. I think this is what the previous sentence is going for. True, tau missiles and wave serpent waves ignore cover but the Venomthrope is suddenly safe and can still project his Shrouding to other nearby units!
The Venomthrope is not an IC so it can't join other units.
Eldercaveman wrote: Judging by the picture they've gone for, on the announcement post, I'm expecting to see a Tyrant, Tyrant ?Guard formation and a Venomthrope formation of sorts.
Oh man, that right there would be a HUGE boon for walking tyrants if they did that. Buy a Hive Tyrant without wings, give him three Tyrant Guard, and you could add a Venomthrope to the squad for 50 pts. A Venomthrope that can't be sniped out by Tau missiles or Wave Serpent waves? *instant* credibility, right then and there.
Both of those things ignore cover though, the Venomthrope wouldn't add anything to squad against them.
But if they form up into a single brood the Venomthrope suddenly has 3 Tyrant Guard to take the hits first and a Hive Tyrant to soak some wounds as well. I think this is what the previous sentence is going for. True, tau missiles and wave serpent waves ignore cover but the Venomthrope is suddenly safe and can still project his Shrouding to other nearby units!
To expand on how awesome this would be. The Shrouded bubble will extend from the unit, rather than the Venomthrope itself (unless I've read the Spore Cloud text wrong?). The Venomthrope also has his Toxic Miasma "nuke", which inflicts hits on models touching any model in the Venomthrope's unit (not just the Venomthrope, but the Tyrant and the Guard too), which could add up to a lot of extra damage.
Eldercaveman wrote: Judging by the picture they've gone for, on the announcement post, I'm expecting to see a Tyrant, Tyrant ?Guard formation and a Venomthrope formation of sorts.
Oh man, that right there would be a HUGE boon for walking tyrants if they did that. Buy a Hive Tyrant without wings, give him three Tyrant Guard, and you could add a Venomthrope to the squad for 50 pts. A Venomthrope that can't be sniped out by Tau missiles or Wave Serpent waves? *instant* credibility, right then and there.
Both of those things ignore cover though, the Venomthrope wouldn't add anything to squad against them.
But if they form up into a single brood the Venomthrope suddenly has 3 Tyrant Guard to take the hits first and a Hive Tyrant to soak some wounds as well. I think this is what the previous sentence is going for. True, tau missiles and wave serpent waves ignore cover but the Venomthrope is suddenly safe and can still project his Shrouding to other nearby units!
The Venomthrope is not an IC so it can't join other units.
We are aware of that.
But I will have you know that the formations tend to alter things like that especially if they are based on the old Apocalypse formations - There was one with Hive Tyrants, Tyrant Guard and Zoanthropes where they all functioned as a single brood.
That is what we are hoping for. If there is a brood formation like that then the Venomthrope will be delicious.
But I will have you know that the formations tend to alter things like that especially if they are based on the old Apocalypse formations - There was one with Hive Tyrants, Tyrant Guard and Zoanthropes where they all functioned as a single brood.
The new formations are more like a bunch of units plus a few special rules strapped on them. They didn't turn multiple broods into a single unit when it was sensible (Endless Swarm) so hoping for Tyrant/Venomthrope unit is Fantasy Land tier whislisting TBH .
Yeah all of the non-Apoc formations so far have kept unit structure the same, so there's no reason to believe you'll now be able to have Venomthropes inside other units.
I think it's more likely we'll see a variation on the Living Fortress idea, with units from that formation within Synapse range of the Tyrant getting FNP or whatever.
Both of those things ignore cover though, the Venomthrope wouldn't add anything to squad against them.
Right, but, Venomthropes are super-squishy, with T 4, 2 wounds, and SV 5+ ... the missile sweeps are Str 5 AP 5 and multishot (Assault 4, twin-linked I think?) so can easily reduce your 'thropes to goo, letting the rest of the army, which doesn't ignore cover, blaze away. IF! (And this is a mighty big if) the formation allowed you to stitch a Venomthrope in with a walking Tyrant's Tyrant Guard, then you suddenly have majority toughness of 6 and 3+ armor saves to protect the Venomthrope, which then allows it to keep that 5+ cover save up on everyone else. Sure, a couple of units will ignore it, but *most* won't, and by not letting the poor Venomthrope be picked off so easily, the walking Tyrant becomes far, far more viable.
The whole concept's a longshot based off the suggestion above, but it'd be a game-changer for the slow-walkin' Tyrant. Fast and furious with wings, slow and borderline invulnerable on foot. Which style do you prefer? As opposed to the current choice, which is, let's face it, not really a choice at all.
Longshot, speculative, etc etc, but it fills me with a little nervous hope.
Attack a Prime to the Venomthrope, hide the unit in a Bastion, if your opponent can't hurt AV 14 you have an unkillable source of Shrouded and Synapse.
Why? the BRB doesn't say nothing about forced disembarkation aside of the destruction of the vehicle/building. There is nothing that says that a unit that is falling back must disembark.
We had this synapse / disembarking discussion a few pages back. Basically the rules don't cover it - this is a situation that was never meant to happen.
Until a proper FAQ / errata comes the only solution is a house rule or a roll-off.
3 Warriors behind the venom-in-a-box is what I've been running too with my Living Artillery Node list.
tetrisphreak wrote: Either way parking a prime in the bastion seems like a huge tax just to keep a single venomthrope kicking around.
You're not just providing Synapse for the Venomthrope, you've also got a solid Synapse anchor 12" around the Bastion and a Warlord your opponent will find quite difficult to Slay.
I just find it sad that nids seem to have to count on using things like a bastion in regular games along with hoping (its AV14 and the opponent may not have the ability to destroy it) to try to make it a game. Not too mention the need to replace a big chunk of your army with FMCs. GW is sucking the enjoyment of nids out of the game for me.
Ventus wrote: I just find it sad that nids seem to have to count on using things like a bastion in regular games along with hoping (its AV14 and the opponent may not have the ability to destroy it) to try to make it a game. Not too mention the need to replace a big chunk of your army with FMCs. GW is sucking the enjoyment of nids out of the game for me.
I don't see what's wrong with using a bastion. Everyone have access to it and it's in the BRB.
As for not everyone having a way to break AV14, My first games were against a necron monolith. Eventually, it's something you have to get ready for, as a bunch of armies have AV14 vehicules.
Probably won't be going Skyblight (i'd need so many more models.) but seems there's still other good armies to make. The crazy dakkafexes list, the endless swarm with a trygon tunnel, living artillery that doesnt cost too much to add to any army, and the deathleaper squad.
Did a solo "training exercise" today at 1500 to try out my harridan. I put it up vs probably the strongest enemy to face it - tau empire.
Lists are pictured:
Tyranids
Dakka flyrant
Harridan
Crone
Crone
3x5 genestealers (scoring units to hide and don't require synapse)
Tau
Commander with drone controller, missiles, 2 marker drones
3x crisis with missiles and target locks, 3 marker drones
3x crisis with fusion blasters and velocity trackers (sky-hunters)
Riptide with ion/stims/SMS 2x broadside with all ze missiles! And 4 missile drones
Sky ray
10 kroot with a hound
16 sniper kroot
11 fire warriors
2 tetras with sensor spines
So very outnumbered but luck fell to the tyranid side - they got 1st turn and the mission was purge the alien. The first thing to happen was the tentaclids from the 2 crones combined put 2 HP of damage on the sky ray - after cover saves. Them the harridan opened up and finished it off, the flyrant precision killed a few drones from the broadside unit.
Tau returned suit by wounding the flyrant and eradicating a crone. Sadly it wasn't enough, as the unmolested genestealers and the remaining flyers had enough punch left over to take out the tau heavy hitters on turn 2. The only models left at the end were a single crone, the harridan, and a riptide that died on turn 6 resulting in a tabling for the tau.
I'm really eager to field this monster vs an actual opponent instead of fish bowling it out.
SBG wrote: Once again, the Tyranids reigned supreme upon the blasted wastes of Planet Bowling Ball, hmm?
Harridans are pretty neat. Good that you bested the Tau, a tourney woud be a great test as well.
Haha the table when set up was actually very full of LOS blocking terrain.
The caveat here is obviously I cannot make any "fake outs" or unexpected tactics from either army when play testing in this manner. Essentially I just move both armies in fairly straight-forward manners and let the dice decide.
Ventus wrote:I just find it sad that nids seem to have to count on using things like a bastion in regular games along with hoping (its AV14 and the opponent may not have the ability to destroy it) to try to make it a game.
Addaran wrote:I don't see what's wrong with using a bastion. Everyone have access to it and it's in the BRB.
Using bastions and such is technically fine and all, but I think his point (and I agree) is that Nids shouldn't have to buy buildings to make a common strategy viable. Especially not for the purpose of hiding a single model inside. Tabletop Tyranid swarms should reflect the fluff, a writhing, indistinguishable mass of organisms that makes it virtually impossible to pick out a target of choice. It would have made much more sense if things like Venomthropes could be attached to units of guants and the like, rather than needing to hide them in buildings like a Grot. Such an approach could even make Pyrovores viable and make synapse more reliable if used with Warriors.
In a related note, I'm nearly finished reading Warriors of Ultramar, which is about a Tyranid invasion of an Imperial world. One part that really drove home the extreme Tyranid numbers is a scene where:
Spoiler:
they only train guardsmen for melee combat. There's no point in target practice because they literally could not miss when firing at the advancing swarm, but having to fend off creatures in melee was inevitable.
It would be great if Nids played like that in the actual game.
Ventus wrote:I just find it sad that nids seem to have to count on using things like a bastion in regular games along with hoping (its AV14 and the opponent may not have the ability to destroy it) to try to make it a game.
Addaran wrote:I don't see what's wrong with using a bastion. Everyone have access to it and it's in the BRB.
Using bastions and such is technically fine and all, but I think his point (and I agree) is that Nids shouldn't have to buy buildings to make a common strategy viable. Especially not for the purpose of hiding a single model inside. Tabletop Tyranid swarms should reflect the fluff, a writhing, indistinguishable mass of organisms that makes it virtually impossible to pick out a target of choice. It would have made much more sense if things like Venomthropes could be attached to units of guants and the like, rather than needing to hide them in buildings like a Grot. Such an approach could even make Pyrovores viable and make synapse more reliable if used with Warriors.
In a related note, I'm nearly finished reading Warriors of Ultramar, which is about a Tyranid invasion of an Imperial world. One part that really drove home the extreme Tyranid numbers is a scene where:
Spoiler:
they only train guardsmen for melee combat. There's no point in target practice because they literally could not miss when firing at the advancing swarm, but having to fend off creatures in melee was inevitable.
It would be great if Nids played like that in the actual game.
Warriors of Ultramar is a great book if you like the Nids, not so great if you like the smurfs.
PS: I know that the Bug Stories had them always ending with their @sses getting handed to them, but they were by far some of the best stories I have seen in a codex...Blackreach was Amazing.
PS: I know that the Bug Stories had them always ending with their @sses getting handed to them, but they were by far some of the best stories I have seen in a codex...Blackreach was Amazing.
Not always (points to Desert Raiders and The Fall of Malvolion). Also many Tyranids stories use a lot of one trick deus ex machina.
PS: I know that the Bug Stories had them always ending with their @sses getting handed to them, but they were by far some of the best stories I have seen in a codex...Blackreach was Amazing.
Not always (points to Desert Raiders and The Fall of Malvolion). Also many Tyranids stories use a lot of one trick deus ex machina.
Indeed...all a preparation for Leviathan. I like to think that all of these Hive Fleets or just the tip of one tiny Tyranid Tendril spreading throughout the Universe.
I don't know if anyone else was sad that they once and for all killed the Swarmlord's first incarnation in the story.
PS: I know that the Bug Stories had them always ending with their @sses getting handed to them, but they were by far some of the best stories I have seen in a codex...Blackreach was Amazing.
Not always (points to Desert Raiders and The Fall of Malvolion). Also many Tyranids stories use a lot of one trick deus ex machina.
Indeed...all a preparation for Leviathan. I like to think that all of these Hive Fleets or just the tip of one tiny Tyranid Tendril spreading throughout the Universe.
I don't know if anyone else was sad that they once and for all killed the Swarmlord's first incarnation in the story.
Ventus wrote:I just find it sad that nids seem to have to count on using things like a bastion in regular games along with hoping (its AV14 and the opponent may not have the ability to destroy it) to try to make it a game.
Addaran wrote:I don't see what's wrong with using a bastion. Everyone have access to it and it's in the BRB.
Using bastions and such is technically fine and all, but I think his point (and I agree) is that Nids shouldn't have to buy buildings to make a common strategy viable. Especially not for the purpose of hiding a single model inside. Tabletop Tyranid swarms should reflect the fluff, a writhing, indistinguishable mass of organisms that makes it virtually impossible to pick out a target of choice. It would have made much more sense if things like Venomthropes could be attached to units of guants and the like, rather than needing to hide them in buildings like a Grot. Such an approach could even make Pyrovores viable and make synapse more reliable if used with Warriors.
In a related note, I'm nearly finished reading Warriors of Ultramar, which is about a Tyranid invasion of an Imperial world. One part that really drove home the extreme Tyranid numbers is a scene where:
Spoiler:
they only train guardsmen for melee combat. There's no point in target practice because they literally could not miss when firing at the advancing swarm, but having to fend off creatures in melee was inevitable.
It would be great if Nids played like that in the actual game.
You don't have to build/play with buildings. You can play as fluffy as you like with nids.
Meanwhile, the Eldar are teaming up with their dark kin as if they had never separated, marines and Tau are both allying themselves with a Tau Commander who breaks all of the rules of the games, Daemons are running multiple psykers that will overload you with their psychic abilities and who are nigh unkillable with the Grimoire, and every Imperial army nowadays seem to have a spare Coteaz tucked away in their trunk somewhere.
If you want to run Tyranids the way they were meant to, that's fine. Just don't expect them to be able to compete against the current tournament armies without bringing in combos of their own. That includes Dataslates and things like the bastions, skyshields and fortifications. That's just the sad reality. If you want to play fluffy, you are going to to be playing with a major handicap against other competitive tournament builds. We need to run combos just to be on an even footing against some of the better armies, and even then, sometimes it's a struggle.
PS: I know that the Bug Stories had them always ending with their @sses getting handed to them, but they were by far some of the best stories I have seen in a codex...Blackreach was Amazing.
Not always (points to Desert Raiders and The Fall of Malvolion). Also many Tyranids stories use a lot of one trick deus ex machina.
Indeed...all a preparation for Leviathan. I like to think that all of these Hive Fleets or just the tip of one tiny Tyranid Tendril spreading throughout the Universe.
I don't know if anyone else was sad that they once and for all killed the Swarmlord's first incarnation in the story.
? please explain, I don't remember that.
In this new book Swarmy loses his wandering about Macragge status and instead they say they find his body in the Wilderness...which makes more sense...like the Ultramarines are just going to leave that to chance. And instead Swarmy became akin to Papa Hive Mind, being able to be uploaded and reincarnated via any hive fleet throughout the galaxy.
ductvader wrote: And instead Swarmy became akin to Papa Hive Mind, being able to be uploaded and reincarnated via any hive fleet throughout the galaxy.
The Swarmlord always have been able to reincarnate, like any other Hive Tyrant.
Sadly i'm finding myself less and less interested in playing painting and building a tyranid force!
mostly because just for not sucking i'm forced to play them in a way i don't like
i'd like to go up and personal but without pods is impossible
i don't like FMC very much
and even long range units like exocrines or biovores are less and less appealing to me!
let's hope for a good 3rd dataslate or i might just hang WH40k to a wall and go back painting random miniatures
PS: I know that the Bug Stories had them always ending with their @sses getting handed to them, but they were by far some of the best stories I have seen in a codex...Blackreach was Amazing.
Not always (points to Desert Raiders and The Fall of Malvolion). Also many Tyranids stories use a lot of one trick deus ex machina.
Indeed...all a preparation for Leviathan. I like to think that all of these Hive Fleets or just the tip of one tiny Tyranid Tendril spreading throughout the Universe.
I don't know if anyone else was sad that they once and for all killed the Swarmlord's first incarnation in the story.
? please explain, I don't remember that.
In this new book Swarmy loses his wandering about Macragge status and instead they say they find his body in the Wilderness...which makes more sense...like the Ultramarines are just going to leave that to chance. And instead Swarmy became akin to Papa Hive Mind, being able to be uploaded and reincarnated via any hive fleet throughout the galaxy.
Uh....Swarmlord never wandered about Macragge to be found in the Wilderness.
Pretty sure that was Old One Eye who was felled, frozen, dug up, thawed out and then rampaged only to have later reports of similar creatures being found.
Swarmlord has always been the reincarnating Uber-Tyrant...
You don't have to build/play with buildings. You can play as fluffy as you like with nids.
Meanwhile, the Eldar are teaming up with their dark kin as if they had never separated, marines and Tau are both allying themselves with a Tau Commander who breaks all of the rules of the games, Daemons are running multiple psykers that will overload you with their psychic abilities and who are nigh unkillable with the Grimoire, and every Imperial army nowadays seem to have a spare Coteaz tucked away in their trunk somewhere.
If you want to run Tyranids the way they were meant to, that's fine. Just don't expect them to be able to compete against the current tournament armies without bringing in combos of their own. That includes Dataslates and things like the bastions, skyshields and fortifications. That's just the sad reality. If you want to play fluffy, you are going to to be playing with a major handicap against other competitive tournament builds. We need to run combos just to be on an even footing against some of the better armies, and even then, sometimes it's a struggle.
jy2 - I agree with what you are saying. It just saddens me that after 4 years of the last mess (5th ed dex - the dex was bad enough but I disliked tervigons (concept and implementation) and never played them which made things worse as they were the go-to unit, especially when 6th edition should up), the current nid dex does not stand well on its own against many armies and I think it will age poorly (and quickly). I understand why dataslates are necessary/useful to compete with the strong builds and have watched some of your battle reports to learn how you handle fighting different armies (they are nice to see - please keep doing them). Just very disappointed - I find it hard to get motivated to play anymore.
badula wrote: Sadly i'm finding myself less and less interested in playing painting and building a tyranid force!
mostly because just for not sucking i'm forced to play them in a way i don't like
i'd like to go up and personal but without pods is impossible
i don't like FMC very much
and even long range units like exocrines or biovores are less and less appealing to me!
let's hope for a good 3rd dataslate or i might just hang WH40k to a wall and go back painting random miniatures
I've been running 9 Raveners supported by 2 squads of 6 Shrikes. It isn't a terribly balanced list, but it is pretty up close and personal, and has a tendency to roll people if they don't know it is coming.
Using bastions and such is technically fine and all, but I think his point (and I agree) is that Nids shouldn't have to buy buildings to make a common strategy viable. Especially not for the purpose of hiding a single model inside. Tabletop Tyranid swarms should reflect the fluff, a writhing, indistinguishable mass of organisms that makes it virtually impossible to pick out a target of choice. It would have made much more sense if things like Venomthropes could be attached to units of guants and the like, rather than needing to hide them in buildings like a Grot. Such an approach could even make Pyrovores viable and make synapse more reliable if used with Warriors.
In a related note, I'm nearly finished reading Warriors of Ultramar, which is about a Tyranid invasion of an Imperial world. One part that really drove home the extreme Tyranid numbers is a scene where:
Spoiler:
they only train guardsmen for melee combat. There's no point in target practice because they literally could not miss when firing at the advancing swarm, but having to fend off creatures in melee was inevitable.
It would be great if Nids played like that in the actual game.
Theorically, Tyranids adapt to everything, it's not always just endless mass of organisms. Against the demons in the new codex, they just spammed Exocrine and Biovore to annihilate them at range (with some zoeys as backup for the Great Unclean One). In St- Caspalen, a single lictor ( Deathleaper!) destroyed all the moral and strategy of the planet, then the swarm came. In Malanthai, the Doom soloed the whole planet once it had enough power ( thanks to a distraction of the dying fleet).
Seems there's still a bunch of tactics possible, aside from Venom in a box. Though i agree, it would have been awesome if the Venom could join squads, like an IC.
badula wrote:Sadly i'm finding myself less and less interested in playing painting and building a tyranid force!
mostly because just for not sucking i'm forced to play them in a way i don't like
i'd like to go up and personal but without pods is impossible
i don't like FMC very much
and even long range units like exocrines or biovores are less and less appealing to me!
let's hope for a good 3rd dataslate or i might just hang WH40k to a wall and go back painting random miniatures
Seems there is one with trygon, mawlock and raveners.
For an upclose and personnal style of game, seems endless swarm with some trygons would be awesome. Take minimum for termies, huge squads for hormagaunts. Then use your normal troops for genestealers so they already start in the enemie's base. 6 squads would be scary, with 90 more hormagaunts running there way. Could probably get two melee flyrants too, they'll be in melee very soon if they fly at full speed.
badula wrote: Sadly i'm finding myself less and less interested in playing painting and building a tyranid force!
mostly because just for not sucking i'm forced to play them in a way i don't like
i'd like to go up and personal but without pods is impossible
i don't like FMC very much
and even long range units like exocrines or biovores are less and less appealing to me!
let's hope for a good 3rd dataslate or i might just hang WH40k to a wall and go back painting random miniatures
I hear what you're saying. But all CC is nerffy in the current rules environment. That is not the Codex, it's 6th. And Nids have a better chance at being a CC army than just about anyone (stop yelling Waaagh! Ork! ) Tunneling is a viable alternative to pods, IMHO. If you have the figures handy....
Just ran 1850 game with Manufactorum stealers and living artillery node. The formations provide that extra punch. Being able to set 210 points of stealers right inside a guard deployment zone, then walk 6 S7 ap2 in to range on turn one was quite devastating to the chimera, followed by 3 pie plate barrage and a pinning vc. The guard left standing had to pour in to 3 broods in the backfeild instead of firing down feild on turn one. (The 2 MBT and executioner still hurt)
Ok. Feedback from the 2.5k game. Quick summary of how things did in my opinion.
Tyranid Psychic Powers - the fact we get a huge chunk of blessings is good. I actually found myself using the Zoanthropes for their second power rather than the first. Catalyst is amazing, Onslaught helps push early movement faster and Dominion is a life saver - especially on a Flyrant.
Flyrants - I actually rather love these guys a bit more. They're all about positioning (for Dominion) for when the Swarm starts to spread and need to be used craftily - I kept mine in jump mode until I was at a point I could send ALL my FMCs forward at the same time onto multiple targets - saturation is important.
*Hive commander - Did not impress. It seems to be 20 points and very situational. In the end I opted not to use it as the gaunts need Synapse-sitting, Warriors are too valuable to throw in that deep in small pocket broods and a Tervigon does better in the back line buffing its bigger buddies. 2+ turns lacking its Psychic support would have probably turned the game on its head.
Zoanthropes - I don't rate them as highly as I used to. Sure, they're synapse but I found myself using them more for their second power than their first. Warp Blast just seems to fall down and fail to impress.
Venomthropes - Nothing says rude like a Carnifex brood with a 2+ cover save. May be tempted to keep them as individuals rather than a brood though to better spread their love.
Termagants - They put out an impressive amount of firepower but at the end of the day they're expendible meat shields and distractions. Didn't expect much, didn't get much.
Hormagaunts - Like termagants, but slightly faster. Good for soaking a unit's firepower. That's about it.
Crones - I love them, but they're very much like Flyrants - you keep them hidden and in jump mode until you reach a point where you can spontaneously flood the enemy with targets. Vector Strike is amazingly useful (it deletes MSUs and plays hell with MSU Marine units with FNP priests or Apothecaries heh) but the Tentaclids were...very hit and miss. Perhaps only fire those off at a weakened target as a finishing blow. Never rely on them to take something out as BS 3 and Haywire is not too reliable as a direct killer.
Gargoyles - Gaunts! Gaunts with wings! Same expectations really.
Carnifexes - I had high hopes and they delivered. The sheer volume of twin linked S6 shots that a brood of 2 dakkafexes puts out is just unholy. It punished everything. Small units melted under weight of fire, regardless of saves and it was fantastic for forcing wounds onto key models with torrent of fire. 24 shots per brood is a beautiful thing.
Tyrannofex - This guy is the star of the show for me. The difference a 2+ save makes is immense. He became an immediate priority, expecially with Acid Spray and Electroshock and use of Onslaught. He has to be played aggressively but makes a fantastic bully buddy when accompanied by Carnifexes.
All in all - I like, very much so. But our anti-vehicle/fortification options may as well be summed up as mass glancing or get something big in combat with the aforementioned vehicle and fortification and go to town smashing.
You don't have to build/play with buildings. You can play as fluffy as you like with nids.
Meanwhile, the Eldar are teaming up with their dark kin as if they had never separated, marines and Tau are both allying themselves with a Tau Commander who breaks all of the rules of the games, Daemons are running multiple psykers that will overload you with their psychic abilities and who are nigh unkillable with the Grimoire, and every Imperial army nowadays seem to have a spare Coteaz tucked away in their trunk somewhere.
If you want to run Tyranids the way they were meant to, that's fine. Just don't expect them to be able to compete against the current tournament armies without bringing in combos of their own. That includes Dataslates and things like the bastions, skyshields and fortifications. That's just the sad reality. If you want to play fluffy, you are going to to be playing with a major handicap against other competitive tournament builds. We need to run combos just to be on an even footing against some of the better armies, and even then, sometimes it's a struggle.
jy2 - I agree with what you are saying. It just saddens me that after 4 years of the last mess (5th ed dex - the dex was bad enough but I disliked tervigons (concept and implementation) and never played them which made things worse as they were the go-to unit, especially when 6th edition should up), the current nid dex does not stand well on its own against many armies and I think it will age poorly (and quickly). I understand why dataslates are necessary/useful to compete with the strong builds and have watched some of your battle reports to learn how you handle fighting different armies (they are nice to see - please keep doing them). Just very disappointed - I find it hard to get motivated to play anymore.
It's all really a matter of Expectation management.
It's all really simple. Say you go to the local playground looking to play a game of hoops. There you team up with other players whom you have never played with before for a pickup game. Then you look across and your opponents happen to be an organized ballclub who constantly practices and plays together and who had even just recently won their Division title. Do you honestly expect to be able to compete against them, or would it be better to lower your expectations to just having fun and maybe learning a thing or two from much more experienced players?
In 40K, fluffy lists can do well against other fluffy lists. However, an average fluffy list just cannot keep up with a highly-optimized, power-combo'd tournament list. That's where most of the disappointment comes in from - players bringing their themed lists, or lists consisting of units that they like aesthetically, and expecting to be able to compete against some of the more powerhouse lists out there....and then getting owned. When you go up against such armies, you either need to lower your expectations dramatically or just don't play against them. And if this was in an actual tournament, you're going to have to brace yourself for probably 1 round of getting thumped, but then it becomes much more enjoyable as you play against other players/armies more at your level. If you truly want to compete with the better armies, then you've got to rethink your list to include synergies and combos of your own. The sad truth nowadays is that very armies can have their cake and eat it also. Very few armies nowadays can be both fluffy and truly competitive.
Random thought - there's a helbrute formation that gained the deep strike rule. Wouldn't it be nice if the carnifexes get a similar treatment this weekend?
(Wishful thinking, I know)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Random thought - there's a helbrute formation that gained the deep strike rule. Wouldn't it be nice if the carnifexes get a similar treatment this weekend?
Random thought - there's a helbrute formation that gained the deep strike rule. Wouldn't it be nice if the carnifexes get a similar treatment this weekend?
tetrisphreak wrote: Random thought - there's a helbrute formation that gained the deep strike rule. Wouldn't it be nice if the carnifexes get a similar treatment this weekend?
tetrisphreak wrote: Wow. I don't know what caused that wonky three-post. Sorry guys.
This would of been funnier if you had of posted it three times lol
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PrinceRaven wrote: Personally, my Flyrants spend most of the time Swooping, a Hard to Hit Toughness 6 model with a 4+ cover save is wonderfully durable.
PrinceRaven wrote: Personally, my Flyrants spend most of the time Swooping, a Hard to Hit Toughness 6 model with a 4+ cover save is wonderfully durable.
Why a 4+ ?
Well sometimes it's 3+ or 2+, but I can't guarantee Night Fighting or being near Venomthropes 100% of the time.
bodazoka wrote: quote=PrinceRaven 572843 6664311 be96ffae8c080b775442184f46e0770e.jpg]Personally, my Flyrants spend most of the time Swooping, a Hard to Hit Toughness 6 model with a 4+ cover save is wonderfully durable.
Why a 4+ ?
Well sometimes it's 3+ or 2+, but I can't guarantee Night Fighting or being near Venomthropes 100% of the time.
Ahh ok sorry I meant shouldn't it be a 5+ but I forgot about the other factors.
PrinceRaven wrote: Yes, I swoop my Flyrants behind ruins to get 4+ cover.
I'm reading the FMC rules right now, and I can't see where that is prohibited, but I feel like it is wrong. Swooping FMCs should only get Jink (if they dive), otherwise no cover, right?
PrinceRaven wrote: Yes, I swoop my Flyrants behind ruins to get 4+ cover.
I'm reading the FMC rules right now, and I can't see where that is prohibited, but I feel like it is wrong. Swooping FMCs should only get Jink (if they dive), otherwise no cover, right?
PrinceRaven wrote: Yes, I swoop my Flyrants behind ruins to get 4+ cover.
I'm reading the FMC rules right now, and I can't see where that is prohibited, but I feel like it is wrong. Swooping FMCs should only get Jink (if they dive), otherwise no cover, right?
No, they still benefit from terrain.
Yeah, Swooping FMCs get all the benefits of terrain and none of the drawbacks. It feels wrong but that's how it is.
PrinceRaven wrote: Well, it's "swooping" isn't it? So it swooped down low to take advantage of the cover.
That's exactly how I put it to my friend, how they 'Swoop' behind that piece of terrain when being shot it. He always hates the explanation. I always find it hilarious.
Soo.. any news on the newest & last Formation? Any hints, leaked tid-bits??
It truly makes me happy to know that Tyranids still can be extremely fluffy and be competitive. That being said, I am giving it about 3 months at the latest before they release all the Tyranid dataslates in hardback, combined or separately. All that being said, how does everyone feel about the Harridan in escalation now? Just got one in a trade, and I am looking to field it as soon as possible.
Harridans are by far the best of the Nid Apoc units. S10 vector strikes followed up by lots of S10 firepower can wreck virtually anything, and many D-weapons will be unable to snapshot at it until it's grounded.
The Harridan's main vulnerability is that they can still be grounded by lasguns, but that's more of a BRB issue than the unit itself.
So I'm thinking about buying a Heirophant, but I'm unsure on the rules. Would my wife's insta-killing on 6's Wraith units instakill it, or does it just lose a lot of wounds?
ID attacks inflict D3 wounds on Gargantuan Creatures.
The Hierophant also has 2+ armour, so unless those Wraiths are AP2 they probably won't have much luck. They will also need to survive the Hierophant's attacks too, it gets a lot of them at WS6 S10 I6 with AP2...
Tyranid Psychic Powers: (for all the games) 3x Catalyst, 2x Paroxysm, 2x Onslaught, 2x Psychic Shriek, Warp Blast
I just generated the powers once and used them for all games.
Game #1 vs Draigowing+Necrons
2x Necron Overlord w/2+, MSS + Warscythes
Draigo
2x5 Immortals in Night Scythes
5x Warriors - Night Scythe
5x Warriors
10x Paladins - 4x Psycannons, FNP, BroBanner, S5-stormbolters, everything
1x Soladin
6x Annihilation Barges
Mission: Relic + Big Guns, Hammer & Anvil, NecroKnights go 1st
Summary: Despite the 1st turn alpha-strike, NecroKnights didn't even manage to kill a flyrant due to 2+ cover and the bugs deploying in snapfire-range of the AB's on Turn 1 (i.e. over 30") away. Harpies and hive crones deploy completely out of range of the AB's. Tyranid retalitorial fire killed a couple of paladins and took down 1 AB for First Blood.
On T2, 2 night scythes come in. However, due to FNP on all flyrants from Catalyst and good saves (bad shooting), I believe bugs lose only 1 flyrant. Paladinstar then go to grab the Relic.
Tyranids then have a devastating beta-strike. Flyrants snipe out the Apothecary (the FNP guy) and kill some more paladins. They also take out 2 of the 3 flyers as well as a couple of AB's with shooting and I believe 1 assault.
T3 is more of the same fail from the NecroKnights. The last flyer comes in. Shooting (now only from the paladinstar, 1 flyer and 3 AB's) can't do enough damage, killing maybe 1 or 2 FMC's. Tyranids then finish off the last night scythe with shooting and all the AB's with mainly assault. Flyrant shooting and finally assault by 2 units of gargoyles kill off the paladinstar to only Draigo remaining.
With all the barges dead, necron flyers dead and paladins gone, NecroKnights concede on Turn 3.
Game #2 vs Seer Council Deldar
Jetseer
Shardseer
Baron
9 Warlocks on Jetbikes
4x5 Dire Avengers in Wave Serpents
2x3 Jetbikes
5x Warriors - Venom w/Grisly Trophies
3x Wraithknights
Mission: Crusade + Emperor's Will, Dawn of War, Night-fight, Eldar go 1st
A sign of the game to come. Eldar didn't get Fortune until the very last roll for psychic powers. That means 5 attempts on the Eldar psychic table, meaning 2 Guides and a bunch of junk powers. It also meant no Prescience or other Divination powers. BTW, I played the LVO rules, where re-rollabe 2+'s become 2+/4+.
On the bright side, Eldar gets a scoring Warlord. That means the whole seer council will be scoring as long as the Shardseer (w/Fortune) is with them! Just perfect.
Summary: Eldar T1 - One of the warlocks dies to Perils while casting Protect. Thanks to 2+ cover from ruins+bastion+venom+shroud, Tyranids survive the Eldar alpha-strike.
T1 - A devastating turn for Eldar. Tyranids go crazy this turn. 2 of the flyrants cast Psychic Scream and actually kill a WK (rolled 11 (+2) on the LD test twice), thus getting First Blood! The rest of the flyrants focus on the seer council, maneuvering to where the Baron was. About 48 TL S6 shots later (with a bunch of Precision shots), the Baron is killed as he fails his Look-Out-Sirs as well as 3 warlocks!!! Tyranids also take out the DE venom.
Eldar 2 - They only manage only to shoot down 1 flyrant. No grounding. Seer council can only charge 1 unit of gargoyles but fail to wipe them out due to no Prescience and being strung out.
T2 - Tyranids continue to stay hot. They take out 3 wave serpents via shooting and assault and stun the 4th. They also kill 1 unit of dire avengers. WK gets charged and takes 2W from gargoyles.
Eldar 3 - Things are going south in a hurry. The seer council fails almost all of their powers due to Shadows, including Fortune. They don't do anything of consequence.
T3 - Without Fortune, Tyranids wipe out the Seer Council and both farseers. Both WK's are locked in combat with gargoyles and the jetbikes can't hide, not with all those FMC's around.
Eldar concedes.
Game #3 vs Wraithwing Necrons
3x Destroyer Lords - 2+, MSS, ResOrb
2x5 Gauss Immortals in Night Scythes
3x5 Warriors in Night Scythes
But first off, I just wanted to show you my massive Tyranid Apoc collection (actually, my friend and I....but most of the big guys are mine):
Ho-ly crap!
That orange bio Titan is the one I painted and sold on eBay back in 2011! I'm glad to see it being used in the hands of a skilled player, also I'm glad to see its legs are still intact after all this time. (The scenic tree glued in its chest plate offers really good support).
That orange bio Titan is the one I painted and sold on eBay back in 2011! I'm glad to see it being used in the hands of a skilled player, also I'm glad to see its legs are still intact after all this time. (The scenic tree glued in its chest plate offers really good support).
You know, 3 months and 74 pages of this thread after the release of the codex I can say that we were a bunch of headless chickens for being so negative.
Not only the dataslates greatly helped us. But the codex isn't as bad as we though (it is still bad, specially in the fluff part, 90% is a copy paste of the previous codex). It is better than the previous one even with the lack of biomancy, I just stomped a Daemon player without the need of a dataslate.
Not sure which thread you've been reading - many of us haven't been down on the new codex from the start.
I mean - I pointed out the obvious flaws (Pyrovores still suck, Tervigons got expectedly nerfed, Swarmlord got unexpectedly nerfed, loss of Pods) but overall I've been happy.
I mean, Carnifexes got much cheaper - how could I be mad?
Not on this thread (in fact this thread was a haven for me personally) but on the many others the "competitive" view of the Codex was that it was bottom three. And that is no exaggeration, in fact saying "bottom three" is giving those views grace.
I understand there were negative views towards other aspects of the codex but the majority were around how it will compete.
See, that is the problem with the internet. One person will say something, and then the little people will take it and run with it, spewing it forth brainlessly as holy verse for the masses. Most often, the internet becomes a chaotic place, with 95% of the space taken up by the brainless spewings of those people, and the yet more little people taking their message, making it worse, and then spewing it forth as yet more holy verse that people need to hear. Then you have places like this, where most of the more intelligent people retreat to so that we don't have to listen to the other 95%.
Truth is, the meta of this game is always changing and varies from place to place. There is no right or wrong, or good or bad. It simply is. At first, I was mildly upset at the loss of spore pods, but now I really couldn't care less. I was distraught at the loss of the Parasite of Mortrex, but now, that little bird is a fast fading memory. Compared to the last codex, GW has spoiled Tyranid players like little children with the new shiny toy that we justly deserve.
To sum all this up,
Yada yada, the easily confused idiot thinks he knows something and is spouting random potentially philosophical messages again, call the white coats.
And by the way...still working on a way to use Pyrovores effectively. I just need to go pick up some more.
That's usually what happens in the natural "evolution" of a new codex. When it first comes out, the critics (which include especially may of the veteran Tyranid players) proclaim that the sky is falling and that the world of 40K as they know it has come to and end. Then later as people get more and more used to/experience with the new codex, they find that it isn't really all that bad. As a matter of fact, a few gems start to come out.
But the true Tyranid players are all connected by the Hive Mind. They know that their new army can compete. And finally, 3 months down the line, it is their turn to say, "see, I told you so."
Umm the Nids codex is still bad....Its lazy and uninspired.
Yes sure we can win plenty games (i've won far more then i've lost) but that doesn't change the fact that the codex was a hash job. (The DLC's did help but really....endless swarm should of been a purchasable codex upgrade for any gaunt squads...)
All I really need to say to make my point is what they did to Scy talons...Replacing re-rolls with AP6 sure is awesome /sarcasm
vortexdr wrote: Umm the Nids codex is still bad....Its lazy and uninspired.
Yes sure we can win plenty games (i've won far more then i've lost) but that doesn't change the fact that the codex was a hash job. (The DLC's did help but really....endless swarm should of been a purchasable codex upgrade for any gaunt squads...)
All I really need to say to make my point is what they did to Scy talons...Replacing re-rolls with AP6 sure is awesome /sarcasm
Now AP5 would have been something...come on...even Kroot CC attacks are AP5!
vortexdr wrote: Umm the Nids codex is still bad....Its lazy and uninspired.
Yes sure we can win plenty games (i've won far more then i've lost) but that doesn't change the fact that the codex was a hash job. (The DLC's did help but really....endless swarm should of been a purchasable codex upgrade for any gaunt squads...)
All I really need to say to make my point is what they did to Scy talons...Replacing re-rolls with AP6 sure is awesome /sarcasm
Not to disparage on you on anything, but that's the problem with people (in general) nowadays. They expect everything in the new codex to be improved, and when it isn't, they denouce the codex as bad or a regression.
When a new generation 'dex comes out, there will be changes. Some for the better, others for the worse. It is unrealistic to expect everything to be better. Rather, you need to shift your expectations from what used to be good to what is good currently. Every single codex change has had this shift.
Necrons - they lost the indestructible monoliths. Reanimation protocols now on a 5+ instead of the 4+. They used to be able to ignore all saves, including Invuln's.
Eldar - they lost auto-Fortune. Bye bye, broken piece of crap Runes of Warding. Harlistar used to be awesomesauce.
Tau - S10 railguns nerfed. Fireknives-spam was all the rage and very powerful indeed.
Daemons - Fate-weaver lost his 6" re-rollable bubble. Bloodcrushers were awesomesauce with T5 and 3+ (and much cheaper also!), especially around Fatey. Screamers and Flamers of Tzeentch were killing it.
So where are they now? Who cares. All of these 4 armies are kicking it at the top tables in tournament play. Now I am not saying Tyranids belong up there with that group (yet), but Tyranids have evolved. If you want to play them, you (the people) need to evolve as well, especially with your expectations. Do not judge today's army with yesterday's expectations. Instead, man up and figure out how to make the new army work for you. Or don't and go play something else.
vortexdr wrote: Umm the Nids codex is still bad....Its lazy and uninspired.
Yes sure we can win plenty games (i've won far more then i've lost) but that doesn't change the fact that the codex was a hash job. (The DLC's did help but really....endless swarm should of been a purchasable codex upgrade for any gaunt squads...)
All I really need to say to make my point is what they did to Scy talons...Replacing re-rolls with AP6 sure is awesome /sarcasm
Not to disparage on you on anything, but that's the problem with people (in general) nowadays. They expect everything in the new codex to be improved, and when it isn't, they denouce the codex as bad or a regression.
When a new generation 'dex comes out, there will be changes. Some for the better, others for the worse. It is unrealistic to expect everything to be better. Rather, you need to shift your expectations from what used to be good to what is good currently. Every single codex change has had this shift.
Necrons - they lost the indestructible monoliths. Reanimation protocols now on a 5+ instead of the 4+. They used to be able to ignore all saves, including Invuln's.
Eldar - they lost auto-Fortune. Bye bye, broken piece of crap Runes of Warding. Harlistar used to be awesomesauce.
Tau - S10 railguns nerfed. Fireknives-spam was all the rage and very powerful indeed.
Daemons - Fate-weaver lost his 6" re-rollable bubble. Bloodcrushers were awesomesauce with T5 and 3+ (and much cheaper also!), especially around Fatey. Screamers and Flamers of Tzeentch were killing it.
So where are they now? Who cares. All of these 4 armies are kicking it at the top tables in tournament play. Now I am not saying Tyranids belong up there with that group (yet), but Tyranids have evolved. If you want to play them, you (the people) need to evolve as well, especially with your expectations. Do not judge today's army with yesterday's expectations. Instead, man up and figure out how to make the new army work for you. Or don't and go play something else.
Clearly the format of the codex release is terrible. The dataslates should have been part of the original codex. The original codex was incomplete and deserves the ridicule piled on it. It is an unseemly money-grab that will do long term harm to GW's PR. The strategy of creating monetary barriers to entry to access the rules is a clear misstep, and by itself is enough to judge the codex a PR failure.
Then you have the punishing effect of synapse which essentially precludes viable tyranid hoard armies. Non hoard tyranid builds are still viable, but that doesn't change the fact that the rules in the codex are at war with the fluff. That dissonance is going to lead to players attracted to the tyranid fluff to find the viable builds unsatisfying.
Further, it is important to note the Rock-Paper-Scissors effect going on in the current meta. Tyranids can beat Eldar. Eldar can beat Tau. Tau can beat Tyranids. That isn't a good thing. The Tyranid codex didn't create this problem, but it certainly didn't make any moves to solve it, and instead made it worse by strictly limiting the viable builds to lists build around the new kits. The lack of diversity is going to create a feel bad for most Tyranid players.
You argument for the codex not sucking is based on ignoring these factors, and focusing on there being a build that can beat certain armies that are powerful in the current meta. On that point I don't disagree with you. But that is not sufficient to judge the codex a success or even not a failure.
Miniwargaming is running a narrative campaign between Tyranids and Necrons. They want a diversity of games featuring a diversity of units. The degree to which they have to manipulate the rules and points to accomplish this highlights the ways in which the Tyranid Codex is a failure.
I personally believe that Leviathan II and III were mostly developed following the release of the codex in an attempt to balance out determined weak units.
Which is not a bad idea...especially from a sales perspective.
vortexdr wrote: Umm the Nids codex is still bad....Its lazy and uninspired.
Yes sure we can win plenty games (i've won far more then i've lost) but that doesn't change the fact that the codex was a hash job. (The DLC's did help but really....endless swarm should of been a purchasable codex upgrade for any gaunt squads...)
All I really need to say to make my point is what they did to Scy talons...Replacing re-rolls with AP6 sure is awesome /sarcasm
Not to disparage on you on anything, but that's the problem with people (in general) nowadays. They expect everything in the new codex to be improved, and when it isn't, they denouce the codex as bad or a regression.
When a new generation 'dex comes out, there will be changes. Some for the better, others for the worse. It is unrealistic to expect everything to be better. Rather, you need to shift your expectations from what used to be good to what is good currently. Every single codex change has had this shift.
See here i'd have to disagree....That one change Scy tal's losing reroll has for all effective purposes severely nerfed our melee units to a point where they just aren't worth fielding, unless of course you want to gimp yourself on purpose.
I mean look what it has done to our MC's with the potential to have two sets of them...Fex's, Trygon, Mawloc etc etc..(they gained....well they gained I suppose AP6, whoopie!!!) You know what, if I had my old talon's i might actually considering running melee fex's....
The cash grab with the dataslates well it doesn't impact me, I'm just downloading/printing them just like I do with every single video game DLC..
Honestly... I've come to accept every single change in the new dex but this is the one I simply cannot comprehend.
There is no doubt that some people will always be upset with a new dex release while others will accept whatever they are given. Either does not mean therefore that every dex release is just as good as the next at the end of the day.
Outliers aside, I have to somewhat agree with tag8833. The dex is sloppy and bland, and a lot of the ideas in the dataslates could have been incorporated in the dex. Many of us acknowledge that strong builds can be made with nids and people will win games (and formations like the skyblight formation can make very strong nid builds). None of that changes the quality of the nid dex (or lack of quality).
I applaud those that are making the dex work for them and helping others to find ways to make nids enjoyable and competitive - again does not change the poor quality of the product.
I am certainly one of those miffed about the quality of the dex (I also have the SM dex and though it has problems it is a much better product with better internal/extranl balance and flavour). I am not happy that to get some of the rules/ideas that should have been in the dex I have to pay even more beyond the already overpriced dex to get them.
So yes, nid players that continue on will make the best (and I realize that some people like the dex) and forge onwards, winning games as well. Doesn't change the quality of an expensive product that could easily have been miles better with a little honest effort (or a lack of sales strategy to get nid players to pay more for rules by using dataslates - for those that hold to that theory).
When the dex came out the negative "narrative" was based around competitiveness, there were of course negatives towards the fluff and perceived lack of imagination but most of the comments were "Nids cant compete"
Now..
Instead of giving the dex is credit because we can now all see it can compete and that those criticisms were false the narrative instead of being positive changes to "No I didn't care about competing it was the fluff / lack of imagination I hated" *
You really just cant win when people grab hold of something.
* I will concede a minority of people will legitimately say they never once whined about the competitiveness and it was all about the other perceived problems.
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ductvader wrote: I personally believe that Leviathan II and III were mostly developed following the release of the codex in an attempt to balance out determined weak units.
Which is not a bad idea...especially from a sales perspective.
I agree.
No one will give GW props for actually responding to community concerns though.
To be honest, while not my major complaint, I did voice concerns over their ability to compete at first and I'm glad we've figured out how to make it work. I just wish it didn't feel like we were competitive in spite of the Codex and we had some better internal balance and versatility.
Id like to say that I never once moaned about anything in the codex and I was a big fan of it from the start. So I'll just sit over here on my high horse, all smug and stuff.
PrinceRaven wrote: To be honest, while not my major complaint, I did voice concerns over their ability to compete at first and I'm glad we've figured out how to make it work. I just wish it didn't feel like we were competitive in spite of the Codex and we had some better internal balance and versatility.
I wonder if they decided that Leviathan is where the balance and versatility would come from, write a "bland" version of that unit and then give it a special rule that makes it better with Leviathan?. No offence at all too you but id prefer we were not like Tau/Eldar who are competitive because of there codex.
I've noticed that the Tyranid formations seem really intent on selling warriors (virtually all ground pounding tyranid formations require a warrior brood) to the point that I think either someone has a fetish for them or is being paid on a per warrior model sold basis.
xttz wrote: Harridans are by far the best of the Nid Apoc units. S10 vector strikes followed up by lots of S10 firepower can wreck virtually anything, and many D-weapons will be unable to snapshot at it until it's grounded.
The Harridan's main vulnerability is that they can still be grounded by lasguns, but that's more of a BRB issue than the unit itself.
I fail to see how S3 can shoot at T8.. Anything T4 or less can't touch a Harridan, can't shoot at = can't force grounding checks.
xttz wrote: Harridans are by far the best of the Nid Apoc units. S10 vector strikes followed up by lots of S10 firepower can wreck virtually anything, and many D-weapons will be unable to snapshot at it until it's grounded.
The Harridan's main vulnerability is that they can still be grounded by lasguns, but that's more of a BRB issue than the unit itself.
I fail to see how S3 can shoot at T8.. Anything T4 or less can't touch a Harridan, can't shoot at = can't force grounding checks.
What rule stops you shooting S3 at a T8 target? I know you can't charge vehicles you can't hurt, but I can't find anything that prevents shooting things you can't wound.
All you need is a hit to force a grounding check, not a wound.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, the rumours thread a supposedly real list of the Onslaught formations out tomorrow. I won't paste them here in case they're not true.,
The consensus so far is that they're OK, but not as good as Invasion.
xttz wrote: Harridans are by far the best of the Nid Apoc units. S10 vector strikes followed up by lots of S10 firepower can wreck virtually anything, and many D-weapons will be unable to snapshot at it until it's grounded.
The Harridan's main vulnerability is that they can still be grounded by lasguns, but that's more of a BRB issue than the unit itself.
I fail to see how S3 can shoot at T8.. Anything T4 or less can't touch a Harridan, can't shoot at = can't force grounding checks.
And markerlights have no S value at all - surely they can't fire at anything!
Or... there's no rule forbidding you from wasting your shots, and a grounding test only requires a hit - not a wound.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, the rumours thread a supposedly real list of the Onslaught formations out tomorrow. I won't paste them here in case they're not true.,
The consensus so far is that they're OK, but not as good as Invasion.
I read those and to my eyes, they look like good guesses more than accurate rumors.
Digital products, unlike the printed ones, don't need any 3rd party manufacturing before release. This means that the only people with access to the true rules are the writers/designers, and anyone they've given access for playtesting. A random GW store doesn't scream to me as a likely place that has "hacked" into these new formations early.
That said, we will see the digital release within the next 10 hours or less when it becomes available at 00:00 GMT. Just like last month, i'll gladly read any reviews of the new rules as they become available, i've already preordered mine and will have it downloaded at Midnight here in the US.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, the rumours thread a supposedly real list of the Onslaught formations out tomorrow. I won't paste them here in case they're not true.,
The consensus so far is that they're OK, but not as good as Invasion.
I read those and to my eyes, they look like good guesses more than accurate rumors.
Indeed, on a few different thread I have unknowingly made some near identical guesses.
Those also feel a bit odd...not the typical GWUSR applications.
OK so i have to retract my previous statement as it appears the user Citadel is posting these same exact formations in the tactics thread. He was dead-on about the Leviathan 2 formations a day early, so i have to think his claims contain veracity.
That being said let's do a quick recap of the formations and potential in-game uses for fielding fluffy lists that can compete: (i'll leave rumored rules out, check the other threads for those if you're unaware)
1.) Bioblast node - Warriors gaining split-fire and re-rolling 1's on their shooting attacks can be pretty useful, allowing the bio cannon in the brood to engage far targets while the deathspitters deal with nearby threats. I see this being used with tons of dakkafexes, if at all. 3/5 rating.
2.)Wrecker Node - Extra hammer of wrath, and re-rolling to wound with obligatory warriors. Everything here except for the extra fex HOW hits can be done with biomorphs (toxin sacs). I only see this one being used if someone wants to cram as many screamer-killers as they can into their lists. 1/5 rating.
3.) Tyrant node- Useful, but not great. If you're taking a walking tyrant anyway, there's no reason not to use this formation instead as it increases his synapse range. Would be spectacular with swarmlord, but i'm unsure if he would count as a "hive tyrant" for formation requirement purposes. 3/5 rating.
4.) Subterranean Swarm - This one intrigues me a lot, but mostly because i love raveners and trygons. Expensive to field, but when it comes into play the enemy suddenly has threat overload. 4/5 rating (for me), i suspect 3/5 for those not enamored with the snakey tyranids.
5.) Living Tide - Apoc only, as the formation calls for 3000+ points of models just to field in a standard game. That being said, I think it's a great starting point for a themed apocalypse army - super synaptic control with tons of respawning little guys, some flyers, etc. Toss in a couple trygons or the subterranean swarm, and the respawned gribblies will be right in the opponent's face when they come back. 5/5 rating in apocalypse, 0/5 in standard play as most games are 2000 points and below.
bodazoka wrote: When the dex came out the negative "narrative" was based around competitiveness, there were of course negatives towards the fluff and perceived lack of imagination but most of the comments were "Nids cant compete"
Now..
Instead of giving the dex is credit because we can now all see it can compete and that those criticisms were false the narrative instead of being positive changes to "No I didn't care about competing it was the fluff / lack of imagination I hated" *
You really just cant win when people grab hold of something.
* I will concede a minority of people will legitimately say they never once whined about the competitiveness and it was all about the other perceived problems.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ductvader wrote: I personally believe that Leviathan II and III were mostly developed following the release of the codex in an attempt to balance out determined weak units.
Which is not a bad idea...especially from a sales perspective.
I agree.
No one will give GW props for actually responding to community concerns though.
Give GW props??? Are you kidding me?? Give them props for milking people for $45 worth of digital content...It's bloody 50 bucks dude....that's 75% the cost of the codex....How can you even defend this?
bodazoka wrote: When the dex came out the negative "narrative" was based around competitiveness, there were of course negatives towards the fluff and perceived lack of imagination but most of the comments were "Nids cant compete"
Now..
Instead of giving the dex is credit because we can now all see it can compete and that those criticisms were false the narrative instead of being positive changes to "No I didn't care about competing it was the fluff / lack of imagination I hated" *
You really just cant win when people grab hold of something.
* I will concede a minority of people will legitimately say they never once whined about the competitiveness and it was all about the other perceived problems.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ductvader wrote: I personally believe that Leviathan II and III were mostly developed following the release of the codex in an attempt to balance out determined weak units.
Which is not a bad idea...especially from a sales perspective.
I agree.
No one will give GW props for actually responding to community concerns though.
Give GW props??? Are you kidding me?? Give them props for milking people for $45 worth of digital content...It's bloody 50 bucks dude....that's 75% the cost of the codex....How can you even defend this?
Honestly, a lot of these rules that are in the formations could have been injected into the codex entries, making them useful without extra content.
However, i don't see any other codices currently getting new formations and dataslates on a monthly basis - that shows that GW is giving attention to our army. That in itself is a good thing - the rules exist, but it's not mandatory you purchase them. For people like me, $15 per month for 3 months is WAY easier to pay than 1 lump payment of $45 or $50 bucks. For people who even don't want to do that, well, i'm sure there are PDFs available containing all the reference material you would need to field these formations.
The bottom line is while we can lament that the ball was dropped in lots of cases with the codex itself, there are fixes being done that breathe life and competitiveness back into it if you're willing to accept them. Extra content is extra, and I will always be happy to see my army supported.
bodazoka wrote: When the dex came out the negative "narrative" was based around competitiveness, there were of course negatives towards the fluff and perceived lack of imagination but most of the comments were "Nids cant compete"
Now..
Instead of giving the dex is credit because we can now all see it can compete and that those criticisms were false the narrative instead of being positive changes to "No I didn't care about competing it was the fluff / lack of imagination I hated" *
You really just cant win when people grab hold of something.
* I will concede a minority of people will legitimately say they never once whined about the competitiveness and it was all about the other perceived problems.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ductvader wrote: I personally believe that Leviathan II and III were mostly developed following the release of the codex in an attempt to balance out determined weak units.
Which is not a bad idea...especially from a sales perspective.
I agree.
No one will give GW props for actually responding to community concerns though.
Give GW props??? Are you kidding me?? Give them props for milking people for $45 worth of digital content...It's bloody 50 bucks dude....that's 75% the cost of the codex....How can you even defend this?
Honestly, a lot of these rules that are in the formations could have been injected into the codex entries, making them useful without extra content.
However, i don't see any other codices currently getting new formations and dataslates on a monthly basis - that shows that GW is giving attention to our army. That in itself is a good thing - the rules exist, but it's not mandatory you purchase them. For people like me, $15 per month for 3 months is WAY easier to pay than 1 lump payment of $45 or $50 bucks. For people who even don't want to do that, well, i'm sure there are PDFs available containing all the reference material you would need to field these formations.
The bottom line is while we can lament that the ball was dropped in lots of cases with the codex itself, there are fixes being done that breathe life and competitiveness back into it if you're willing to accept them. Extra content is extra, and I will always be happy to see my army supported.
Eff, we are getting 3 dataslates that we knew about from day one. I don't see it as much compared to codexs that get full supplements (leviathan should have been) and datalates. Really DA got the short straw on the Digital releases, though not the nids so that is something.
I remain of the same opinion that I had before the Nid codex came out....I am exclusively a Tyranid player, for life. I don't like the changes, but I don't have to. I refuse to play another race. They're boring.
OTOH, this codex IS uninspired/uninspiring....For the most part, units that were good before remained good and units that were barely used before are barely used (competitively speaking).
With that said, I think what WOULD be the BEST POSSIBLE FIX for 40K at this point in the F**ked up place it is right now is to removed the ally chart completely.
If you like allies, you're stupid. It breaks everything this game is supposed to be about: "In the grim dark future there is only war.....[except if you want to ally with another race, then it's okay...]" what?!
If you wanna play the, "well allies are cool! They happen in real wars right?" Sure! Play that card! But then do away with battle brothers completely!!! At best, different races should still be skeptical of each other when they are allied.....
Thats just my two cents in regard to why the game is so broken in its current state and it's effect on the Tyranid codex. The Tyranid codex is fine when compared to EVERY book EXCEPT those that take need and do take advantage of battle brothers (Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Tau are the repeat offenders). IMHO I think the only justified ally out there is Chaos Deamons and CSM.....
Kain wrote: I've noticed that the Tyranid formations seem really intent on selling warriors (virtually all ground pounding tyranid formations require a warrior brood) to the point that I think either someone has a fetish for them or is being paid on a per warrior model sold basis.
I think it is more an example of warriors being a significantly overcosted unit, and thus it is the tax we pay for the special rules associated with the various formations. Just like the TGaunt tax for taking a Tervigon as a troop.
vortexdr wrote: Give GW props??? Are you kidding me?? Give them props for milking people for $45 worth of digital content...It's bloody 50 bucks dude....that's 75% the cost of the codex....How can you even defend this?
tetrisphreak sums up my feelings perfectly.
I swear if they had of put it all together and called it "supplement Leviathan" people would love the dataslates... which makes my head explode... It's exactly the same bloody thing!
Anyway... I love the new Fex formation! that is likely the best of the lot. And the subterranean assault one makes me wonder, you could do HUGE thread over load turn 2.
New slate is out and it's a laugh. Here's a question that will probably only be truly answered with a FAQ
Fill a NORMAL FOC. Then take formations, units in the formations fulfill battlefield roles as normal, troops are troops, elite are elite, etc, so can an HQ from a formation BE the Warlord?
notbriang wrote: New slate is out and it's a laugh. Here's a question that will probably only be truly answered with a FAQ
Fill a NORMAL FOC. Then take formations, units in the formations fulfill battlefield roles as normal, troops are troops, elite are elite, etc, so can an HQ from a formation BE the Warlord?
No as the warlord must come from your primary detachment.
notbriang wrote: New slate is out and it's a laugh. Here's a question that will probably only be truly answered with a FAQ
Fill a NORMAL FOC. Then take formations, units in the formations fulfill battlefield roles as normal, troops are troops, elite are elite, etc, so can an HQ from a formation BE the Warlord?
No as the warlord must come from your primary detachment.
Understand that this is probably the way, but my confusion lies with where that "primary detachment" part is. It only appears in deciding your Warlord in 2,000+ point games when the Double FOC comes into play. Otherwise, Warlord choice simply states that it's the highest Ld model (choose specifics in a tie).
Don't want to completely spin out, so I'll just leave that here and disappear again.
Am I the only one who found the walking tyrant formation a bit underwhelming? I'm not sure what I wanted them to do but I was hoping for something that made me sit up and consider it to be a rival option to the standard flyrant HQ every army seems to run.
I think the only purpose for it is to get an extra Tyrant into your army. 2 flyrants and a walkrant could be pretty nifty in theory. But the points cost is prohibitive for what you get, I think, in most lists.
The main benefit of most of these formations is going to be ignoring the FOC. The Tyrant one especially means that you can squeeze in more Tyrants (our best all-rounder unit) and more Venoms (making them harder to pick off in turn 1). Tyranids especially have all sorts of benefits from smaller units... single Carnifexes can ignore the worst IB roll when alone, and can spread out to threaten a larger area. Solo Venoms can be easier to hide totally out of LoS. I'm already seeing all sorts of non-FMC based builds that - while they aren't going to redefine the meta - will still be pretty tough in most casual games.
While we all would have liked GW to fix the glaring faults in the codex, that was never going to happen 2 months after it came out... they didn't understand how to do it before the codex was published and they're not suddenly going to learn now.
Time to make do with what we got, folks.
Had my second game since the new codex! I played vs my friend's new Space marine army (Iron Arms i think?).
My armie:
Walkrant, TlBLDev and HVC
5x Genes
5x Genes
3x Zoan
1x Harpy
1x trygon prime with miasma
Endless swarm
3X Warrios ( 2x deathspitter, one venom canon)
10X Horma
10x Horma
11x Horma
20X Devgaunts
20x Devgaunts
20X Devgaunts
He had roughtly:
1 HQ with a sword, with 5 marines (maybe a special one) in a landraider.
1 group of 5 marines (one leader and one special weapon) walking
1 group of 5 marines (one leader and one special weapon) in a pod.
5X Scout with snipers and rocket
1 dearnouht in a pod
5X Hammer and Shield Termies
1 Flyer
1 Small tank with rocket
1 Tank
(sorry, i dont know much the other armies =P)
We were playing the relic, the map was split in two by a river (dangerous terrain) with a small bridge with the relic on it. The map was symetrical, 1 good ruins each, and 3 pieces of difficult terrain for cover.
Too much happenned for me to do a proper batrep, but my thoughs.
Zoan are still my MVP. Love them so much and only reliable way to kill tanks i have. (Need to be in range for MC creature)
Biovores are fun, they let me shoot every possible turns. They did almost nothing though. Hate armored enemies, only time they were good was vs cultist.
Genestealer and the trygon prime occupied a good part of his army in the back field. He had to waste his termies there instead of on my HT. Trygon killed a squad and a tank (only about 200 pts) but on the next turn, some devgaunts would have popped in his zone.
Devsgaunts, still great, did decent damage. Maybe not as much as when i run them 30x.
Hormagaunts.... why won't they die. I've spend 3 turns in the dangerous terrain, being shot by a squad of marines. I charged him with only 2 vs 3 marines. He couldn't overwatch them and only managed to kill 1 in two rounds of combat. Really can't count on them to die and use the tunnel. =X
harpy was okish, but was on board when his flyer entered and he won the flying duel (with the help of the land raider)
I had the relic for most of the game. but at the end, i made a mistake. Instead of just letting my devs near the one warrior alive (with the relic) to take it if it drops, i tied his HQ squad in CC, But his immobilized dreadnaught killed my warrior. So he had first blood and maybe line breaker. The game ended the first turn it could end, next turn i'd have gotten line breaker and probably removed his line breaker. so very close game, we both made some mistake, was fun. =D
xttz wrote: While we all would have liked GW to fix the glaring faults in the codex, that was never going to happen 2 months after it came out... they didn't understand how to do it before the codex was published and they're not suddenly going to learn now.
Time to make do with what we got, folks.
GW is using modern business decision making. The short term is all that matters. Long term growth is unappealing because it involves investing money into the business that could be paid out immediately to executives and shareholders. If the company is eventually driven into the ground, who cares, because everyone has already cashed out. Modern economic incentives favor this sort of strategy, because initial growth is highly profitable for shareholders and executives, but once a certain size is reached, the profit margin for future growth is greatly diminished, so cashing out, then starting over produces the most money for the people making the decisions.
To that end, they have created a codex designed to sell as many of their new models (Crones, Exocrines) as fast as possible, because these models have the highest margin on them. Older models with a lower margin like Genesteelers shouldn't be sold. They could raise the margin on Genesteelers, but doing so would look bad on their balance sheets for Crones / Exocrines because the ROI wasn't immediate, and would alienate customers more quickly. People don't like to pay more for the same thing, and they want a slow decline. Losing 10-20% of customers a year. Also selling the digital dataslates is probably the highest margin thing they do, so I would expect to see lots more of that coming.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Addaran wrote: Zoan are still my MVP. Love them so much and only reliable way to kill tanks i have. (Need to be in range for MC creature)
I played 2 games yesterday. In the first game I had 2 squads of 1 Zoey. I tried to warp lance armor 6 times. 1 Failed Psychic Test, 2 Deny the Witches, 2 Missed shots, and 1 Failed to glance or penetrate (rolled a 1). It was truly a great day for Zoeys.
Addaran wrote: Zoan are still my MVP. Love them so much and only reliable way to kill tanks i have. (Need to be in range for MC creature)
I played 2 games yesterday. In the first game I had 2 squads of 1 Zoey. I tried to warp lance armor 6 times. 1 Failed Psychic Test, 2 Deny the Witches, 2 Missed shots, and 1 Failed to glance or penetrate (rolled a 1). It was truly a great day for Zoeys.
Mine were all together. might have been overkill, but when i want something dead, it's almost sure to die. the landraider would have exploded and been immobilized twice(in one turn!).
Just one lance on the other hand (my tyrant rolled it) just immobilized the dreadnaught. The zoan also draws a lot of fire while being tough. 3++ makes them one of the toughess one, outside of FMCs and tyranofex.
Probably could have killed another tank with them, but only 1 was in range. Decided to go for the cool factor and tried to blast his Flyer with 3 lances, but they all missed. only failed on leadership test, and no deny the wich worked.
Just to make sure i have the rule right with the brood of psychic and assault 3 witch fire.... if one zoan is at 17'' and the other ones just a bit over 18''. Only one lance will come out right? or because it's a brood, they count as one huge psyker and the 3 lances can come from the same part?
Addaran wrote: Zoan are still my MVP. Love them so much and only reliable way to kill tanks i have. (Need to be in range for MC creature)
I played 2 games yesterday. In the first game I had 2 squads of 1 Zoey. I tried to warp lance armor 6 times. 1 Failed Psychic Test, 2 Deny the Witches, 2 Missed shots, and 1 Failed to glance or penetrate (rolled a 1). It was truly a great day for Zoeys.
Mine were all together. might have been overkill, but when i want something dead, it's almost sure to die. the landraider would have exploded and been immobilized twice(in one turn!).
Just one lance on the other hand (my tyrant rolled it) just immobilized the dreadnaught. The zoan also draws a lot of fire while being tough. 3++ makes them one of the toughess one, outside of FMCs and tyranofex.
Probably could have killed another tank with them, but only 1 was in range. Decided to go for the cool factor and tried to blast his Flyer with 3 lances, but they all missed. only failed on leadership test, and no deny the wich worked.
Just to make sure i have the rule right with the brood of psychic and assault 3 witch fire.... if one zoan is at 17'' and the other ones just a bit over 18''. Only one lance will come out right? or because it's a brood, they count as one huge psyker and the 3 lances can come from the same part?
xttz wrote: While we all would have liked GW to fix the glaring faults in the codex, that was never going to happen 2 months after it came out... they didn't understand how to do it before the codex was published and they're not suddenly going to learn now.
Time to make do with what we got, folks.
GW is using modern business decision making. The short term is all that matters. Long term growth is unappealing because it involves investing money into the business that could be paid out immediately to executives and shareholders. If the company is eventually driven into the ground, who cares, because everyone has already cashed out. Modern economic incentives favor this sort of strategy, because initial growth is highly profitable for shareholders and executives, but once a certain size is reached, the profit margin for future growth is greatly diminished, so cashing out, then starting over produces the most money for the people making the decisions.
To that end, they have created a codex designed to sell as many of their new models (Crones, Exocrines) as fast as possible, because these models have the highest margin on them. Older models with a lower margin like Genesteelers shouldn't be sold. They could raise the margin on Genesteelers, but doing so would look bad on their balance sheets for Crones / Exocrines because the ROI wasn't immediate, and would alienate customers more quickly. People don't like to pay more for the same thing, and they want a slow decline. Losing 10-20% of customers a year. Also selling the digital dataslates is probably the highest margin thing they do, so I would expect to see lots more of that coming.
You're overcomplicating things somewhat here. Regardless of what the tinfoil collective on here may rant about, I honestly don't believe GW design rules (or expansions) around pushing specific models. They want to push all the models, as often as they can. It's quite easy to see that there's a very random correlation between units with good rules and new units with supposedly good RoI. If that was the case, why is the Wave Serpent kit (over a decade old) the star of the last Eldar codex? Why didn't we see squadrons of undercosted Crimson Hunters instead? How come the Dark Angels fighter and over-sized land speeder were mediocre at best? Why do Daemons still have a brand new kit that's virtually useless because they forgot to put (or FAQ) the Relentless USR on it? Hive/Tyrant Guard got a brand new kit, but didn't really improve at all rule-wise. The Pyrovore was a brand new kit for the 5E codex, yet the rules were an utter abortion then too.
The explanation is much simpler. GW just don't know how to write balanced units, and don't care enough to try. The rules team go with the rules that sound the coolest, and what made for the best narratives during their limited play-testing. The process is very simple...
1) The Sales drones (many with no understanding of the game) crunch their spreadsheets, see that unit X for army Y is selling well, and order the design studio to design a similar model for army Z.
2) The design studio does some sketches, then design a model kit around them. The spare space on the sprue determines what optional extras they get.
3) The rules team then writes a codex around all these new models, plus reviews the old ones to some extent. Rather than cross-compare between codexes with various statistics and math-hammer, they play the game. If a certain unit or unit combo happens to do a little too well, it gets toned down (even if that was down to lucky dice). If a unit is especially entertaining ("Hey this Pyrovore just EXPLODED! How cool is that?!"), then it's probably fine in their minds.
After over 25 years of 40k, we're at the point where some races have a lot of units and upgrade combinations. Loads. Not all options are going to make their way into this play-testing, and often some won't receive the full attention they deserve. When the rules guys are under pressure from above to develop the next codex or expansion, they simply aren't going to be able to devote hundreds of games into making sure everything works as it should. Their bosses certainly aren't telling them to develop the most balanced game since Chess. Their brief is just to make a document that ties all these models together to be sold.
Any models. All the models.
tag8833 wrote: I played 2 games yesterday. In the first game I had 2 squads of 1 Zoey. I tried to warp lance armor 6 times. 1 Failed Psychic Test, 2 Deny the Witches, 2 Missed shots, and 1 Failed to glance or penetrate (rolled a 1). It was truly a great day for Zoeys.
I honestly think Zoeys are more hampered by the BRB than their own rules. Psychic shooting is really silly, as you have so many hoops to jump through with no benefit... psychic test (which can kill you), DtW, then rolling to hit.
They (and many other units) would fare a lot better if you could skip at least one of those steps. Either psychic shooting should hit automatically like Blessings / Maledictions do, or DtW should be curtailed to stop non-psykers using it.
omerakk wrote: SAY HELLO TO OLD ONE EYE AND HIS AMAZING FRIENDS!!!!
HQ Old One Eye
Elite
1 venomthrope
1 venomthrope
1 venomthrope
Troops
3 warriors
3 warriors
Fast
Hive Crone
Heavy
Tyrannofex w electroshcok grubs
Exocrine
Wrecker Node Formation
3 warriors with flesh hooks
1 carnifex with spine banks
1 carnifex with spine banks
1 carnifex with spine banks
Wrecker Node Formation
3 warriors with flesh hooks
1 carnifex with spine banks
1 carnifex with spine banks
1 carnifex with spine banks
Yes it's poop but I don't care, I get to play with 10 MC's and 7 carnifexs.
Mate, swap the Primary FOC Warriors for some gribbles. Drop the Exocrine and Crone and VT, you should have enough points to add in a Bio-blast node for even more Fex fun.
Addaran wrote: Zoan are still my MVP. Love them so much and only reliable way to kill tanks i have. (Need to be in range for MC creature)
I played 2 games yesterday. In the first game I had 2 squads of 1 Zoey. I tried to warp lance armor 6 times. 1 Failed Psychic Test, 2 Deny the Witches, 2 Missed shots, and 1 Failed to glance or penetrate (rolled a 1). It was truly a great day for Zoeys.
Mine were all together. might have been overkill, but when i want something dead, it's almost sure to die. the landraider would have exploded and been immobilized twice(in one turn!).
Just one lance on the other hand (my tyrant rolled it) just immobilized the dreadnaught. The zoan also draws a lot of fire while being tough. 3++ makes them one of the toughess one, outside of FMCs and tyranofex.
Probably could have killed another tank with them, but only 1 was in range. Decided to go for the cool factor and tried to blast his Flyer with 3 lances, but they all missed. only failed on leadership test, and no deny the wich worked.
2 more games tonight for my zoeys to cover themselves in glory. I ran a squad of 2 and a Squad of 1 in both games. Between the 2 games the squad of 2 got 6 shots on a Land Raider. It went something like this:
Attack 1) 1 + 2 on to hit roll
Attack 2) Preferred enemy from swarmlord. 5+6 on psychic roll.
Attack 3) Deny the Witch
Attack 4) 1 Glance, 1 Pen!!!!! But the Land Raider makes 2 5+ cover saves.
Attack 5) Deny the Witch (Psychic Hood)
Attack 6) 1 hit. 1 on to wound roll.
It didn't stop there. They got 2 shots on a Rhino:
Attack 1) 6 + 6 on psychic test.
Attack 2) 1 + 2 on to hit roll.
To add insult to injury, in the first game both zoeys rolled paroxysm for the psychic power, and were denied the only time they cast it. In the second game, they both rolled psychic scream which I swapped for Dominion. I rolled for 12 psychic powers tonight and never rolled Catalyst or Onslaught.
Swarmlord also managed to kill himself with a peril. With psychic rolling like this, I'm about due for a few good rolls.
Addaran wrote: Zoan are still my MVP. Love them so much and only reliable way to kill tanks i have. (Need to be in range for MC creature)
I played 2 games yesterday. In the first game I had 2 squads of 1 Zoey. I tried to warp lance armor 6 times. 1 Failed Psychic Test, 2 Deny the Witches, 2 Missed shots, and 1 Failed to glance or penetrate (rolled a 1). It was truly a great day for Zoeys.
Mine were all together. might have been overkill, but when i want something dead, it's almost sure to die. the landraider would have exploded and been immobilized twice(in one turn!).
Just one lance on the other hand (my tyrant rolled it) just immobilized the dreadnaught. The zoan also draws a lot of fire while being tough. 3++ makes them one of the toughess one, outside of FMCs and tyranofex.
Probably could have killed another tank with them, but only 1 was in range. Decided to go for the cool factor and tried to blast his Flyer with 3 lances, but they all missed. only failed on leadership test, and no deny the wich worked.
2 more games tonight for my zoeys to cover themselves in glory. I ran a squad of 2 and a Squad of 1 in both games. Between the 2 games the squad of 2 got 6 shots on a Land Raider. It went something like this:
Attack 1) 1 + 2 on to hit roll
Attack 2) Preferred enemy from swarmlord. 5+6 on psychic roll.
Attack 3) Deny the Witch
Attack 4) 1 Glance, 1 Pen!!!!! But the Land Raider makes 2 5+ cover saves.
Attack 5) Deny the Witch (Psychic Hood)
Attack 6) 1 hit. 1 on to wound roll.
It didn't stop there. They got 2 shots on a Rhino:
Attack 1) 6 + 6 on psychic test.
Attack 2) 1 + 2 on to hit roll.
To add insult to injury, in the first game both zoeys rolled paroxysm for the psychic power, and were denied the only time they cast it. In the second game, they both rolled psychic scream which I swapped for Dominion. I rolled for 12 psychic powers tonight and never rolled Catalyst or Onslaught.
Swarmlord also managed to kill himself with a peril. With psychic rolling like this, I'm about due for a few good rolls.
With rolls like that, i hope next game every shot is a successfull Snapshot against a flyer and they all explode. o_O
You have the worst luck possible.
omerakk wrote: SAY HELLO TO OLD ONE EYE AND HIS AMAZING FRIENDS!!!!
HQ Old One Eye
Elite
1 venomthrope
1 venomthrope
1 venomthrope
Troops
3 warriors
3 warriors
Fast
Hive Crone
Heavy
Tyrannofex w electroshcok grubs
Exocrine
Wrecker Node Formation
3 warriors with flesh hooks
1 carnifex with spine banks
1 carnifex with spine banks
1 carnifex with spine banks
Wrecker Node Formation
3 warriors with flesh hooks
1 carnifex with spine banks
1 carnifex with spine banks
1 carnifex with spine banks
Yes it's poop but I don't care, I get to play with 10 MC's and 7 carnifexs.
Mate, swap the Primary FOC Warriors for some gribbles. Drop the Exocrine and Crone and VT, you should have enough points to add in a Bio-blast node for even more Fex fun.
See, I thought about doing that exact same thing, but was worried that dropping my already fragile VT cover by 1 would hurt more than it helped; as would having only 3 synapse units instead of 4. I put in the Crone, Exocrine, and Tyrannofex instead of 3 dakkafexes just for the sake of having different threats (tyranno for spraying down units in cover, exocrine for shooting ap2 at the few things i dont want to charge right away, crone for anti-air etc)
Idk... I might switch up to that anyway, just for the sake of using 10 carnifexs ^^
So guys, I perfer a fluffy list, and I have been working on one around my new Harridan. Probably going to have to go out and get plenty of new models to field this, but I want to! If my math is right, this is 1850. So, comments and concerns for the good of the order?
Lord of War: The Winged Devil of Hellion Prime: 735 points
1x Harridan
HQ: The Herald of the Hive Mind: 220 points
1x Flying Hive Tyrant w/ Toxin Sacs and Maw Claws of Thyrax
HQ: The Murderer in the Night: 130 points
Deathleaper
Fast Attack: The Banes of Port Bastion: 425 points
2x Harpies
1x Crone
Fast Attack: The Shadows from Below: 180 points
3x 10x Gargoyles
So with IA4 V2 being sent to the printers within the next few days, I'll discuss some of the changes I can remember.
While I only got a quick flick through a few things stood out,
Obviously the new unit which is probably my favourite sculpt yet, and for some reason in my excitement I didn't get a proper look at it's rules, I do know it's coming in at more points than a Hive Tyrant. And Fast attack.
Stone Crusher Fex loses it's 2+, I did question the reasoning behind this! and he said it was mostly down to the fact that a 2+ save is pointless these days. So instead they gave him a rule that forces any roll to wound a -1 penalty,
He also has D3+1 hammer of wrath attacks at AP2. And lower base attacks at only 2. And one of the weapon options is an ID weapon.
Most other stuff in there stayed mostly the same as it has all been update across other places, the only one that has changed that's already been updated for 6th is the Malanthrope which sees a rather large point reduction and a move to the elite slot. They can also challenge, but not be challenged. (If I read the rule correctly)
Very interesting. How long does it usually take for a book to go out for distribution after being sent to print? Are we looking at a 3 month window, here?
Also I hope malanthropes are useful again I have 2 that I'd love to field.
Unyielding Hunger wrote: So guys, I perfer a fluffy list, and I have been working on one around my new Harridan. Probably going to have to go out and get plenty of new models to field this, but I want to! If my math is right, this is 1850. So, comments and concerns for the good of the order?
Lord of War: The Winged Devil of Hellion Prime: 735 points
1x Harridan
HQ: The Herald of the Hive Mind: 210 points
1x Flying Hive Tyrant w/ Toxin Sacs
Fast Attack: The Banes of Port Bastion: 425 points
2x Harpies
1x Crone
Fast Attack: The Shadows from Below: 270 points
3x 15x Gargoyles
Troops: The Murderers in the Night: 140 points
2x 5x Genestealers
Fortifications: 70 points
Aegis Defense Line w/ Comms Relay
That strikes me as not being legal.
IIRC, even with Escalation you still need 1 HQ and 2 Troops. You still need your core Force Org chart there.
What you have is 2 troops. A Skyblight Swarm. And a Lord of War.
I used a harridan yesterday at 1500 points. I found it to be a well performing unit but my list lacked scoring units, which really hurt me in the first round. I'd consider a tervigon and gant blob as troops for my list and go from there.
pinecone77 wrote: Here is my "current" version of "Endless Tunnel Assault" I came up with while eating breakfast...
HQ: Winged asassain: Wings, LW/BS, Toxic, Thorax swarm, Brain leeches 255 (usually Warlord, I play this guy conservitive and reactive, so he tends to stay alive)
Winged Dakka'rant 230
Endless Swarm:
Hormigants x 15, (x3) 225
Spinegaunts x 15, (x3) 180 (Apparently the US version is "not right", and it should be 3x here. I disagree, because the Formation had exactly 6 troops, and now has 7, and that strikes me as something somebody with no knowlage of the Codex would do, thinking Warriors are Elites....)
Warriors: see above 120
Total: 525 525+1325=1850 7 Synapse, 2 FMC, 2 Big Wormeys, 1 Mawloc (5 MC's of all types) 9 Troops, 6 of which can pop back to life (4+) and two tunnels for assaulting... a fair challenge at 1850 I think...
Almost no upgrades, other than the Winged Asassain...but a Winnable force to my eye...
Bump, man, I could not search this...I'd descibe it as "not optimal" for finding old posts
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Razerous wrote: Nope... searching that only highlights your last post?
Sorry I could not search it out either...I also posted a couple in Army list...If you can find them...
pinecone77 wrote:Endless Swarm:
Hormigants x 15, (x3) 225
Spinegaunts x 15, (x3) 180 (Apparently the US version is "not right", and it should be 3x here. I disagree, because the Formation had exactly 6 troops, and now has 7, and that strikes me as something somebody with no knowlage of the Codex would do, thinking Warriors are Elites....)
Warriors: see above 120
Formations ignore the FOC (even internally) and are allowed to contain 7 Troops. The 2 gaunt version was confirmed as a misprint on the Digital Editions Facebook page, and they updated the downloads.
Eldercaveman wrote:So with IA4 V2 being sent to the printers within the next few days, I'll discuss some of the changes I can remember.
While I only got a quick flick through a few things stood out,
Obviously the new unit which is probably my favourite sculpt yet, and for some reason in my excitement I didn't get a proper look at it's rules, I do know it's coming in at more points than a Hive Tyrant. And Fast attack.
Stone Crusher Fex loses it's 2+, I did question the reasoning behind this! and he said it was mostly down to the fact that a 2+ save is pointless these days. So instead they gave him a rule that forces any roll to wound a -1 penalty,
He also has D3+1 hammer of wrath attacks at AP2. And lower base attacks at only 2. And one of the weapon options is an ID weapon.
Most other stuff in there stayed mostly the same as it has all been update across other places, the only one that has changed that's already been updated for 6th is the Malanthrope which sees a rather large point reduction and a move to the elite slot. They can also challenge, but not be challenged. (If I read the rule correctly)
Oh nice I didn't realise IA4 was done, didn't see any details about it in the FW thread. Did you happen to catch the point cost for the Stonecrusher?
tetrisphreak wrote:Very interesting. How long does it usually take for a book to go out for distribution after being sent to print? Are we looking at a 3 month window, here?
Also I hope malanthropes are useful again I have 2 that I'd love to field.
Late April to Mid May was the general consensus.
They still don't look great, but they don't hog a HQ spot any more,
xttz wrote:
pinecone77 wrote:Endless Swarm:
Hormigants x 15, (x3) 225
Spinegaunts x 15, (x3) 180 (Apparently the US version is "not right", and it should be 3x here. I disagree, because the Formation had exactly 6 troops, and now has 7, and that strikes me as something somebody with no knowlage of the Codex would do, thinking Warriors are Elites....)
Warriors: see above 120
Formations ignore the FOC (even internally) and are allowed to contain 7 Troops. The 2 gaunt version was confirmed as a misprint on the Digital Editions Facebook page, and they updated the downloads.
Eldercaveman wrote:So with IA4 V2 being sent to the printers within the next few days, I'll discuss some of the changes I can remember.
While I only got a quick flick through a few things stood out,
Obviously the new unit which is probably my favourite sculpt yet, and for some reason in my excitement I didn't get a proper look at it's rules, I do know it's coming in at more points than a Hive Tyrant. And Fast attack.
Stone Crusher Fex loses it's 2+, I did question the reasoning behind this! and he said it was mostly down to the fact that a 2+ save is pointless these days. So instead they gave him a rule that forces any roll to wound a -1 penalty,
He also has D3+1 hammer of wrath attacks at AP2. And lower base attacks at only 2. And one of the weapon options is an ID weapon.
Most other stuff in there stayed mostly the same as it has all been update across other places, the only one that has changed that's already been updated for 6th is the Malanthrope which sees a rather large point reduction and a move to the elite slot. They can also challenge, but not be challenged. (If I read the rule correctly)
Oh nice I didn't realise IA4 was done, didn't see any details about it in the FW thread. Did you happen to catch the point cost for the Stonecrusher?
Yeah I think it was a FW day surprise, I'm not too sure about the points cost, I got a little fan boy excited about the whole thing, I want to say 145 but not sure about that. The new model is 55 points more than that however
tetrisphreak wrote: Very intrigued by the new nid creation. Looks like I'll have a good summer.
It's a beautiful model.
The model is Hive Tyrant esque in stature, with Scytalons that are split in two, and Rending Claws, it's chest split open into some sort of Haruspex style weapon. That looks like it could mount a thorax weapon, gutted I didn't take a better look at the rules.
pinecone77 wrote: Here is my "current" version of "Endless Tunnel Assault" I came up with while eating breakfast...
HQ: Winged asassain: Wings, LW/BS, Toxic, Thorax swarm, Brain leeches 255 (usually Warlord, I play this guy conservitive and reactive, so he tends to stay alive)
Winged Dakka'rant 230
Endless Swarm:
Hormigants x 15, (x3) 225
Spinegaunts x 15, (x3) 180 (Apparently the US version is "not right", and it should be 3x here. I disagree, because the Formation had exactly 6 troops, and now has 7, and that strikes me as something somebody with no knowlage of the Codex would do, thinking Warriors are Elites....)
Warriors: see above 120
Total: 525 525+1325=1850 7 Synapse, 2 FMC, 2 Big Wormeys, 1 Mawloc (5 MC's of all types) 9 Troops, 6 of which can pop back to life (4+) and two tunnels for assaulting... a fair challenge at 1850 I think...
Almost no upgrades, other than the Winged Asassain...but a Winnable force to my eye...
Bump, man, I could not search this...I'd descibe it as "not optimal" for finding old posts
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Razerous wrote: Nope... searching that only highlights your last post?
Sorry I could not search it out either...I also posted a couple in Army list...If you can find them...
I love what you've done there! I was trying to do a similar thing awhile back but with no luck. Here is a revised 2000 list I've been working on now that the third dataslate is out:
I ran Endless Swarm yesterday. It was more effective than I expected. Of Course I was playing blood angels with Space Wolf Allies at 1500 points as opposed to something like Tau.
Mephiston Space Wolves Rune Priest + 10 Marines in a Landraider.(Multimelta, Stormbolters, Assault Cannon)
2 Rhinos with Assault Cannons. 2x 5 Marines in a Storm Raven (Multimelta, Assault Cannon, Blootstrike missiles) <- one of these was Space wolves I think
I had very low expectations for endless swarm, and my opponent immediately spotted the flaw in my list and started targeting my synapse. I fired my squad of 2 at the land Raider 3 times but never did anything to it. My Quad gun fired at a Storm Raven 3 times, and never did anything to it. One of my flyrants fired 12 shots at a Storm Raven and only took off one wound. Meanwhile some HGaunts killed a rhino, and I was able to kill his marines anytime they showed their face. I had some really crappy rolls until turn 5 when my flyrant made 3 grounding tests, and he tried to avoid killing entire gaunt units because he knew they might come back. He killed my zoeys (Only made 2 of 8 saves), but I did manage to fire my squad of 2 zoeys at the land raider 3 times, and never did diddly. I only lost 3 of the 6 endless swarm units, and 2 of them came back, though one never made it to the board. We were playing the scouring with 6 objectives, and turn 5, he dropped his marines out of the storm ravens onto objectives, and shot me off 2 of the objectives, so turn 5 was a draw. If it had gone to turn 6 I would have destroyed his remaining marines, and he had no way of dealing with the shear number of bodies I would have had on objectives. With better rolls (7 warp lances at the land Raid did 1 HP), I would have tabled him.
Endless swarm far exceeded my expectations. The game was slow by the shear number of units that needed to be moved, so I probably wouldn't play this list often, but it was an interesting test.
ETA: initially we rolled "Purge the Alien", but I essentially conceded immediately so we rerolled.
roxor08 wrote: I remain of the same opinion that I had before the Nid codex came out....I am exclusively a Tyranid player, for life. I don't like the changes, but I don't have to. I refuse to play another race. They're boring.
OTOH, this codex IS uninspired/uninspiring....For the most part, units that were good before remained good and units that were barely used before are barely used (competitively speaking).
With that said, I think what WOULD be the BEST POSSIBLE FIX for 40K at this point in the F**ked up place it is right now is to removed the ally chart completely.
If you like allies, you're stupid. It breaks everything this game is supposed to be about: "In the grim dark future there is only war.....[except if you want to ally with another race, then it's okay...]" what?!
If you wanna play the, "well allies are cool! They happen in real wars right?" Sure! Play that card! But then do away with battle brothers completely!!! At best, different races should still be skeptical of each other when they are allied.....
Thats just my two cents in regard to why the game is so broken in its current state and it's effect on the Tyranid codex. The Tyranid codex is fine when compared to EVERY book EXCEPT those that take need and do take advantage of battle brothers (Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Tau are the repeat offenders). IMHO I think the only justified ally out there is Chaos Deamons and CSM.....
And most of the Imperial factions.
And the Guard/Tau Alliance and Guard/Chaos Alliance is their lazy man's way of making Gue'Vesas and the Lost and the Damned.
Eldrad at least thinks the Tau are the Eldar's best hope for a peaceful galaxy.
But honestly as a whole, the Allies system disproportionately favors Imperial Armies who already make up half the armies in the game and get the most battle brothers combos. The Eldar, Tau, and Chaos also benefit, while the Necrons get a bit out of it, Orks get woefully little, and Tyranids get jack squat.
I mean sure there's usually a fluff argument behind the matrix entries, but there were definitely winners and losers.
bodazoka wrote: When the dex came out the negative "narrative" was based around competitiveness, there were of course negatives towards the fluff and perceived lack of imagination but most of the comments were "Nids cant compete"
Now..
Instead of giving the dex is credit because we can now all see it can compete and that those criticisms were false the narrative instead of being positive changes to "No I didn't care about competing it was the fluff / lack of imagination I hated" *
You really just cant win when people grab hold of something.
* I will concede a minority of people will legitimately say they never once whined about the competitiveness and it was all about the other perceived problems.
I made a thread detailing this effect and why it is amazing hypocritical just here. Feel free to respond with your thoughts last post is only from a day or so ago
Sidenote for the Horde: I've yet to be able to use my Fexe's' CC attacks...between shotting and Hammer of Wrath I've won every combat I've been in with them before I2.
Not a bad problem to have, but in some ways it makes me sad.
ductvader wrote: Sidenote for the Horde: I've yet to be able to use my Fexe's' CC attacks...between shotting and Hammer of Wrath I've won every combat I've been in with them before I2.
Not a bad problem to have, but in some ways it makes me sad.
If you are finding too much overkill, I would suggest running them in smaller groups. Between all these dataslates it shouldn't be too hard to do so.
ductvader wrote: Sidenote for the Horde: I've yet to be able to use my Fexe's' CC attacks...between shotting and Hammer of Wrath I've won every combat I've been in with them before I2.
Not a bad problem to have, but in some ways it makes me sad.
If you are finding too much overkill, I would suggest running them in smaller groups. Between all these dataslates it shouldn't be too hard to do so.
Well right now I have 2 units of 2...but I don't hate the idea of 3 units of 1.
ductvader wrote: Sidenote for the Horde: I've yet to be able to use my Fexe's' CC attacks...between shotting and Hammer of Wrath I've won every combat I've been in with them before I2.
Not a bad problem to have, but in some ways it makes me sad.
I took a squad of 3 dakkafexes into assault against draigo and 10 Paladins (7 by the time they arrived). I also had a Walkrant and 2 tyrant guard, 6 TGaunts, and 20 or so HGaunts in that combat. The Fexes did a lot of attacks, but didn't score many hits. WS 3 is really a problem for a CC powerhouse. Also no AP on HOW meant that the Paladins shrugged it off. It wasn't exactly a great decisions, I think they killed 1 Paladin before being force weaponed to death at the rate of 1 per turn. The HGaunts did better than the CFexes in that combat. I think that I've only managed to bring Cfexes into assault 4 times. They are relatively fragile, and tend to die before they make it there. My opponents know the HOW is death to vehicles, and all vehicles are faster than CFexes so they just run away from them. Because of their lack of speed, range, and survivability, I've mainly given up on Carnifexes.
They're by no means a point-and-click unit - you can't just march them across the table and get into CC. I actually avoid CC with my dakkafexes normally.
But they're definitely not fragile, especially in broods of 3. Fex1 takes some wounds, shoot him to the back, bring a different fex forward. Repeat. And if you have the points, regen on all of them lets you do this dance for much longer.
With my Stranglethorn/Devourer loadout they tend to make combat around turn 3/4...and they rarely die as they keep themselves low priority.
In my most recent games they've been mostly serving as an outflank/deepstrike deterrent/punishment.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
rigeld2 wrote: But they're definitely not fragile, especially in broods of 3. Fex1 takes some wounds, shoot him to the back, bring a different fex forward. Repeat. And if you have the points, regen on all of them lets you do this dance for much longer.
Indeed...the only times I ever worry about losing my fexes is if I am ever forced to make a movement into the open against massed ranged AP3-
tag8833 wrote: My opponents know the HOW is death to vehicles, and all vehicles are faster than CFexes so they just run away from them. Because of their lack of speed, range, and survivability, I've mainly given up on Carnifexes.
Just split the Fexes into units of one or two, and cover more of the board. A single ~500pt unit is really easy to avoid, but three individual MCs (each with an 18" threat range) aren't. They should be able to cover any appropriate choke points, assuming there is enough terrain. Any vehicles not hugging the back edge of the table will be caught. Don't forget Adrenal Glands if you want to make it into melee, Fleet can make all the difference.
As for survivability, the Carnifexes are probably getting focused down because they're the biggest threat. The simplest solution there is to introduce a bigger, tougher threat that has be dealt with. An acid T-Fex would be top choice here. Put it in front and let it absorb damage, or at least force your opponent to divide damage.
ductvader wrote:Sidenote for the Horde: I've yet to be able to use my Fexe's' CC attacks...between shotting and Hammer of Wrath I've won every combat I've been in with them before I2.
Not a bad problem to have, but in some ways it makes me sad.
Duct, that is blasphemy. Make sure you inform your opponent to bring larger units.
rigeld2 wrote:They're by no means a point-and-click unit - you can't just march them across the table and get into CC. I actually avoid CC with my dakkafexes normally.
But they're definitely not fragile, especially in broods of 3. Fex1 takes some wounds, shoot him to the back, bring a different fex forward. Repeat. And if you have the points, regen on all of them lets you do this dance for much longer.
I think that is more of a situation depending on your local meta. Take mine for example. In every game I played except one, my Carnifexes made it into combat. The one time that they didn't, one Carnifex died at just over charge range to a demolisher cannon, and the other one promptly fell silent for a moment of remembrance for its fallen brother before promptly moving up and killing the 2 demolisher tanks.
ductvader wrote:Sidenote for the Horde: I've yet to be able to use my Fexe's' CC attacks...between shotting and Hammer of Wrath I've won every combat I've been in with them before I2.
Not a bad problem to have, but in some ways it makes me sad.
Duct, that is blasphemy. Make sure you inform your opponent to bring larger units.
rigeld2 wrote:They're by no means a point-and-click unit - you can't just march them across the table and get into CC. I actually avoid CC with my dakkafexes normally.
But they're definitely not fragile, especially in broods of 3. Fex1 takes some wounds, shoot him to the back, bring a different fex forward. Repeat. And if you have the points, regen on all of them lets you do this dance for much longer.
I think that is more of a situation depending on your local meta. Take mine for example. In every game I played except one, my Carnifexes made it into combat. The one time that they didn't, one Carnifex died at just over charge range to a demolisher cannon, and the other one promptly fell silent for a moment of remembrance for its fallen brother before promptly moving up and killing the 2 demolisher tanks.
I love how much d@mn character these giant meat trains can have in a game.
pinecone77 wrote: Here is my "current" version of "Endless Tunnel Assault" I came up with while eating breakfast...
HQ: Winged asassain: Wings, LW/BS, Toxic, Thorax swarm, Brain leeches 255 (usually Warlord, I play this guy conservitive and reactive, so he tends to stay alive)
Winged Dakka'rant 230
Endless Swarm:
Hormigants x 15, (x3) 225
Spinegaunts x 15, (x3) 180 (Apparently the US version is "not right", and it should be 3x here. I disagree, because the Formation had exactly 6 troops, and now has 7, and that strikes me as something somebody with no knowlage of the Codex would do, thinking Warriors are Elites....)
Warriors: see above 120
Total: 525 525+1325=1850 7 Synapse, 2 FMC, 2 Big Wormeys, 1 Mawloc (5 MC's of all types) 9 Troops, 6 of which can pop back to life (4+) and two tunnels for assaulting... a fair challenge at 1850 I think...
Almost no upgrades, other than the Winged Asassain...but a Winnable force to my eye...
Bump, man, I could not search this...I'd descibe it as "not optimal" for finding old posts
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Razerous wrote: Nope... searching that only highlights your last post?
Sorry I could not search it out either...I also posted a couple in Army list...If you can find them...
I love what you've done there! I was trying to do a similar thing awhile back but with no luck. Here is a revised 2000 list I've been working on now that the third dataslate is out:
10 Troops, 6 that can respawn
6 Synapse
8 MC's with 2 FMC's
94 Models in 18 units
As strong as the Skyblight formations kicking around? Probably not... but it still looks viable enough to shake things up.
Thoughts?
Looks good, you only have one tunnel, so proper placement is critical (and you may be forced to choose between optimal use of the Big Wormey, and wanting to place the tunnel...)
Synapse looks "OK". at high point levels Synapse hunting is a viable strategy, and a swarmy list is extra vulnrible to it. As long as you can place the warriors in good cover, all is well. (me? I'd find room for some Zoeys, and/or a second Wormy )
The main strength looks to be the wrecker node, if you could fit in a Veno, it would likely make you happy you did...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm going over the relevant rules and I can't see anything that would prevent you using the Guard from the Tyrant Node formation with a different HT. The rules don't force you to use them as one unit.
It might be a bit of a niche thing, but this could be useful for keeping the HT from the Node formation alone as a backfield 18" synapse (armed with an HVC or STC). You could then assign the Tyrant Guard to a HT or even Swarmlord in your primary detachment. That makes it easier to deny Slay the Warlord.
tag8833 wrote: My opponents know the HOW is death to vehicles, and all vehicles are faster than CFexes so they just run away from them. Because of their lack of speed, range, and survivability, I've mainly given up on Carnifexes.
Just split the Fexes into units of one or two, and cover more of the board. A single ~500pt unit is really easy to avoid, but three individual MCs (each with an 18" threat range) aren't. They should be able to cover any appropriate choke points, assuming there is enough terrain. Any vehicles not hugging the back edge of the table will be caught. Don't forget Adrenal Glands if you want to make it into melee, Fleet can make all the difference.
As for survivability, the Carnifexes are probably getting focused down because they're the biggest threat. The simplest solution there is to introduce a bigger, tougher threat that has be dealt with. An acid T-Fex would be top choice here. Put it in front and let it absorb damage, or at least force your opponent to divide damage.
I've never run Carnifexes without a full FOC Heavy support section. Most of the time that includes an Acid Tfex. When it doesn't, then there is at least one Exocrine in there. The CFexes get focused on because they are easier to kill than the Tfex, and more valuable than the gaunts / warriors. I don't think I've ever lost a TFex in a game. Nobody ever shoots at a TFex. Sometimes they assault it, but usually that just tarpits it. Maybe using the new formations I could split the Cfexes up a bit, but I'm still dubious about their usefulness compared to Exocrines, TFexes, Mawlocs, or Biovores. Even the Trygon / Trygon prime is more appealing because it has mobility thanks to deep strike. I don't know what sort of opponents you face that would shoot at a TFex before a Carnifex. I sure as hell wouldn't.
If I allow that I might have been using them wrong, and that I need to spam them in single model squads for them to be effective, would a list like this be a fair test of Carnifex viability?
The Gargoyles and Venoms screen the Canifexes to prevent them from dying turn one (unless Tau), and possibly two. The exocrine is a "Bigger, Tougher threat". The Tyrants, and Crone are going to be higher on opponent target priority.
Why exactly wouldn't TFexes, Exocrines or Crones be a better use of 450 points?
10 MC's
5 troops
5 synapse
17 units
30 points to spare
So terrible it makes me giggle with delight! And yes, I know the Haruspex is considered terrible and I could have just grabbed another dakkafex... but damn it! I want to use this model so bad!
rigeld2 wrote: Carnies with FNP and a 5+ cover and Regen and wound dancing are awesomely survivable.
I think Regen is too expensive and unreliable.
I've never seen a brood of Carnifexes take fire and not lose at least one whole fex. Regen seems like a 30 point waste, and wound dancing only works if they take wounds without dying, which they don't. A couple weeks back I had a brood of 3 carnifexes 2 of which had 2+ cover, and 1 with 3+ cover, and they all died to Tau's opening salvo. I didn't have a chance to give them FNP, because they were dead before I took my first turn. Maybe if Carnifexes were characters and could Look out Sir, then regen would be viable.
Also, re FNP. I would gladly pay for that upgrade. Where do I get it? Because counting on catalyst is a bad bet. I rolled for 24 psychic powers over 4 games this weekend and only rolled catalyst once, When I do get so fortunate as to roll catalyst, I always use it on my flyrants first, because they are more valuable. I would only use it on my carnifexes if my flyrants were both covered.
rigeld2 wrote: Carnies with FNP and a 5+ cover and Regen and wound dancing are awesomely survivable.
I think Regen is too expensive and unreliable.
I've never seen a brood of Carnifexes take fire and not lose at least one whole fex. Regen seems like a 30 point waste, and wound dancing only works if they take wounds without dying, which they don't. A couple weeks back I had a brood of 3 carnifexes 2 of which had 2+ cover, and 1 with 3+ cover, and they all died to Tau's opening salvo. I didn't have a chance to give them FNP, because they were dead before I took my first turn. Maybe if Carnifexes were characters and could Look out Sir, then regen would be viable.
Also, re FNP. I would gladly pay for that upgrade. Where do I get it? Because counting on catalyst is a bad bet. I rolled for 24 psychic powers over 4 games this weekend and only rolled catalyst once, When I do get so fortunate as to roll catalyst, I always use it on my flyrants first, because they are more valuable. I would only use it on my carnifexes if my flyrants were both covered.
A few weeks ago you rolled poorly for your armour saves? that doesn't mean your T6 4 x wound 3+ armour save model is paper. The odds for all of them to die in one volley before moving is something like being shot at by 300 fire warriors after the pathfinders have hit you and marked you enough times to remove your 2+ cover save. The odds of your not rolling catalyst also just points to your dice as being crap.
Just as a side note.. whilst it sucks you lost the 3 x carnies in the first volley it would of meant your flyrant's survived a turn without being shot at and then proceeded to move 24" and wreck FW face! as they usually do.
Agree with regen, It costs too much to gain a wound or two back per battle on 1 x carnifex.
Tournament this weekend saw me lose 2 Carnifexes total over 3 games.
I brought models for a 1500 point tournament and it was actually 1850 so I threw some random upgrades and a Tyrannofex I wasn't finished painting in.
Carnifexes take fire all the time without losing a whole one - facing both Eldar and Necrons (no Tau this weekend) - both extremely shooty armies - took multiple shooting phases to kill one, so Regen paid off. It being a 50% chance to get a wound back is nice - it's more consistent.
rigeld2 wrote: Tournament this weekend saw me lose 2 Carnifexes total over 3 games.
I brought models for a 1500 point tournament and it was actually 1850 so I threw some random upgrades and a Tyrannofex I wasn't finished painting in.
Carnifexes take fire all the time without losing a whole one - facing both Eldar and Necrons (no Tau this weekend) - both extremely shooty armies - took multiple shooting phases to kill one, so Regen paid off. It being a 50% chance to get a wound back is nice - it's more consistent.
Depends on loadout. A CC tooled version I agree will often be ignored for the first few turns as there are more immediate threats. A brood of dakka fexes though I would be surprised to see them ever get more than one round of shooting off. A 4 wound model with only a 3+ armour save should be killable in a round especially at 1,850.
tag8833 wrote: I've never seen a brood of Carnifexes take fire and not lose at least one whole fex. Regen seems like a 30 point waste, and wound dancing only works if they take wounds without dying, which they don't. A couple weeks back I had a brood of 3 carnifexes 2 of which had 2+ cover, and 1 with 3+ cover, and they all died to Tau's opening salvo. I didn't have a chance to give them FNP, because they were dead before I took my first turn. Maybe if Carnifexes were characters and could Look out Sir, then regen would be viable.
Also, re FNP. I would gladly pay for that upgrade. Where do I get it? Because counting on catalyst is a bad bet. I rolled for 24 psychic powers over 4 games this weekend and only rolled catalyst once, When I do get so fortunate as to roll catalyst, I always use it on my flyrants first, because they are more valuable. I would only use it on my carnifexes if my flyrants were both covered.
Man, you have some really bad dice. I'd forgo buying any extra Crones, Exocrines or T-Fexes and replace those first, because damn.
Out of interest, why did you choose to run all the Fexes with Devourer and STC? That's an odd combination, as the Stranglethorn will generally be wasted against armour or when snap-firing on flyers, and you have no shortage of other pinning / anti-infantry in your list. In this case I'd be running 2 Fexes in a brood each with double Devourers. This combo is very flexible and eat through some targets better than an Exocrine or T-Fex. Even if you don't get Catalyst, it's also a great use of Onslaught, and it's easier to share cover benefits from terrain and venoms.
I'd then use the final Fex as either a STC or HVC platform. With the Stranglethorn it's probably better to keep back a bit, there's no benefit in being in front here. An HVC-equipped Fex with Adrenals makes a pretty good tank hunter, especially for AV13/14. Even if you can't quite make a charge, the weapon can do some damage.
xttz wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm going over the relevant rules and I can't see anything that would prevent you using the Guard from the Tyrant Node formation with a different HT. The rules don't force you to use them as one unit.
It might be a bit of a niche thing, but this could be useful for keeping the HT from the Node formation alone as a backfield 18" synapse (armed with an HVC or STC). You could then assign the Tyrant Guard to a HT or even Swarmlord in your primary detachment. That makes it easier to deny Slay the Warlord.
xttz wrote: Out of interest, why did you choose to run all the Fexes with Devourer and STC? That's an odd combination, as the Stranglethorn will generally be wasted against armour or when snap-firing on flyers, and you have no shortage of other pinning / anti-infantry in your list.
Stranglefexes have a 42" threat range...that's huge for bugs! I love my fexes being able to do something 1-2 turns earlier than normal...sure...you can run...but without adrenals you're just going +3.5" a turn.
I use 4 of these guys consistently as they allow you to play the backfield for an extra turn or two if need be...and they're excellent at taking on units that can be dangerous to them within that 24" bubble.
Early game pinning is excellent as well...not to mention the amount of wounds you can put on units with those large blasts.
If you're consistently facing infantry with a few vehicle armies now and then...this is your loadout.
rigeld2 wrote: Tournament this weekend saw me lose 2 Carnifexes total over 3 games.
I brought models for a 1500 point tournament and it was actually 1850 so I threw some random upgrades and a Tyrannofex I wasn't finished painting in.
Carnifexes take fire all the time without losing a whole one - facing both Eldar and Necrons (no Tau this weekend) - both extremely shooty armies - took multiple shooting phases to kill one, so Regen paid off. It being a 50% chance to get a wound back is nice - it's more consistent.
Depends on loadout. A CC tooled version I agree will often be ignored for the first few turns as there are more immediate threats. A brood of dakka fexes though I would be surprised to see them ever get more than one round of shooting off. A 4 wound model with only a 3+ armour save should be killable in a round especially at 1,850.
These were dakkafexes. My opponents were busy trying to deal with the two Flyrants, Tervigon, and Tyrannofex that were also threats.
And the Warriors that were scoring in the backfield.
I use 4 of these guys consistently as they allow you to play the backfield for an extra turn or two if need be....
It's not the Stranglethorns I was questioning, so much as them being paired with Devourers. Aside from the strength they seem fairly incompatible, and I can't see the Devourers getting used too often in when left in the backfield. Do you run with Devourers too, and if so do they get used much?
It's a very powerful anti deepstrike loadout and as you play these fexes less aggressively, you're just going to be using those devourers a turn or two later than normal.
It also adds some redundancy for 24" threat range so a bad scatter doesn't muck things up.
I tried running the TL Deathspitters for the sake of pts, but it just didn't perform well enough to even justify the 5 pts...and running a single set of scytals feels like a waste.
Looking at the new formations I was trying to come up with something different. For reference I have been trying to make warriors work lately (love the models and it covers the synapse problems). So here is what I came up with as a first go at 1850
I think this has potential with 6 carnis, a tfex, and 18 warriors led by a prime. No model with less than 3 wounds and cover provided by the venoms. Flyers would be a problem but most I think I can ignore and be fine. I would like to hear the opinions of those with greater experience with the nids. Thanks
In regards to the Carnifex conversation: I used 2 Dakkafexen in my last tournament. I brought a TAC list that included an Acid T-fex with Adrenals and 3 Biovores.
The board control you can achieve with these choices is crazy. Paired with a Venomthrope hiding behind a bastion/embarked in a bastion the Dakkafexen can patrol midboard and Acidfex can protect them from incoming assaults. Not to mention the range of the Biovores with the S6 potential barrage.
I will say that even though I only lost 1 Carnifex throughout the 5 games, all of my opponents HAD to avoid the middle 24" of the table. I also was fortunate to snag Onslaught a couple times which only increasingly creates a no-go zone. They are moderate flier defense, that if your Flyrants don't manage to down the enemy fliers, you can probably rely on you Dakkafex to do an additional HP of damage.
OTOH, I have revamped my list to include 2 Acidfexen with Adrenals because I found that more often than not my opponents we simply avoiding the Dakkafexen. Over the course of the 5 game tournament the T-fex only died twice and both times they managed to tarpit units. Being able to assault a large unit of Meq and tank almost all of the Krak gernades is incredibly useful.
While I know I'll regret the additional 24 TL S6 shots I don't like essentially "wasting" 300 points for the first 2 turns. Because of good positioning by my opponents, they were usually able to avoid them for this long. What I found, was that since my opponents knew they were too resilient with a 2+/3+ cover save they wanted to draw them out of the Shrouded bubble. I found myself falling into this trap because I felt that they were simply a waste of points just sitting midboard protecting a few objectives....
Again, 2 Dakkafexen have a significantly higher damage output that a Acid-fex (and more points) so I might find myself flopping back and forth between these depending on my meta changes....
The main idea of this list is based on hiding the Vthrope behind the Tervigon and AcidFexen but behind the ADL so that the Acidfexen and Tervigon should be able to get a 2+/2+cv and likewise be able to BLOS to the Venomthrope.
I would think that I would want to start most of the FMC on the board in the bubble (unless I am playing against that damn S10 AP1 Orbital bombardment grand master) because I would want the Crones to be able to fly off the table before my opponents fliers come on while also giving me the option of doing the same with the Flyrants.
I know most people would also argue that my synapse isn't adequate, but being that *most* of the units are immune to the terrible IB results I don't have to worry too much about it. I'd only have to worry about the Biovores and the Gants. The Biovores should be/will be hugging the Tervigon and/or area terrain and the gants will typically be reserved. This way I can fly on a flyrant if they were going to potentially fail the turn after they come on.
tag8833 wrote: I've never seen a brood of Carnifexes take fire and not lose at least one whole fex. Regen seems like a 30 point waste, and wound dancing only works if they take wounds without dying, which they don't. A couple weeks back I had a brood of 3 carnifexes 2 of which had 2+ cover, and 1 with 3+ cover, and they all died to Tau's opening salvo. I didn't have a chance to give them FNP, because they were dead before I took my first turn. Maybe if Carnifexes were characters and could Look out Sir, then regen would be viable.
Also, re FNP. I would gladly pay for that upgrade. Where do I get it? Because counting on catalyst is a bad bet. I rolled for 24 psychic powers over 4 games this weekend and only rolled catalyst once, When I do get so fortunate as to roll catalyst, I always use it on my flyrants first, because they are more valuable. I would only use it on my carnifexes if my flyrants were both covered.
A few weeks ago you rolled poorly for your armour saves? that doesn't mean your T6 4 x wound 3+ armour save model is paper. The odds for all of them to die in one volley before moving is something like being shot at by 300 fire warriors after the pathfinders have hit you and marked you enough times to remove your 2+ cover save. The odds of your not rolling catalyst also just points to your dice as being crap.
Just as a side note.. whilst it sucks you lost the 3 x carnies in the first volley it would of meant your flyrant's survived a turn without being shot at and then proceeded to move 24" and wreck FW face! as they usually do.
Agree with regen, It costs too much to gain a wound or two back per battle on 1 x carnifex.
6 of the wounds were from seeker missiles from skyrays with Marker light buffs. No saves of any kind. At that point I just had to make around 27 of 32 saves from Broadsides, Riptides and Crises Suites with Buffmander to stay alive. I didn't do it, but that isn't bad rolls. That is typical rolls. I very, very rarely see firewarriors. Because they die unlike riptides, broadsides, and suites, the Tau players in my local meta almost never take them.
Sacrificing CFexes for flyrants isn't a good game plan either. CFexes are far to costly to be throwaways (I was running Dakkafexes with Adrenals, 165 a piece). Also Flyrants have the advantage of mobility allowing them to hold way back, and hide out of LOS. Carnifexes don't have that. They have to be deployed close to the edge of your deployment zone if you want them to have any sort of effect against a gun line army. If the army is coming to you, they could be deployed further back, and would have more survivability.
xttz wrote: Out of interest, why did you choose to run all the Fexes with Devourer and STC? That's an odd combination, as the Stranglethorn will generally be wasted against armour or when snap-firing on flyers, and you have no shortage of other pinning / anti-infantry in your list. In this case I'd be running 2 Fexes in a brood each with double Devourers. This combo is very flexible and eat through some targets better than an Exocrine or T-Fex. Even if you don't get Catalyst, it's also a great use of Onslaught, and it's easier to share cover benefits from terrain and venoms.
I'd then use the final Fex as either a STC or HVC platform. With the Stranglethorn it's probably better to keep back a bit, there's no benefit in being in front here. An HVC-equipped Fex with Adrenals makes a pretty good tank hunter, especially for AV13/14. Even if you can't quite make a charge, the weapon can do some damage.
I can only keep them alive for turn 1 (if not facing Tau), and maybe turn 2, and it takes them 3 turns to get into effective range running 2 TL-Devouers or longer if my enemy is trying to avoid them. With Stranglethorn, they can at least do some damage in those 2-3 turns. If I face something other than a gunline which is rare for my local meta it is probably a Drop Pod army. Stranglethorn can be just as good as devourers against that on the turn they arrive. If I face something else, say Orks, Mech, Beast Pack, or Flying circus than I'm regretting my wargear choices. With 2 Dakka Flyrants and a Crone, I do have a fair amount of anti Air.
That being said, if you think my proposed list would better test the viability of Carnifexes by outfitting 2 of them with 2 TL devourers and 1 with a HVC and Adrenals, I would be happy to try that.
The idea of a Cfex with a HVC is unappealing to me, because the Harpy can have a TL HVC + way more maneuverability + more survivability for the same cost. Why would you pick Cfex over Harpy?
In fact that highlights the problem with Cfexes to me. Consider the table below ranked on a scale of 1 to 10
Dakkafexes are good against Guard Equiv., and Air. They are ok against Mech and Marine Equiv. Meanwhile Crones and Harpies can do better with Mech and MEQ. Exocrines are better at TEQ. TFexes are great at survivability. Before the dataslates, carnifexes ability to be taken in broods helped their desirability, but now that FOC is less constraining, they are less desirable, and they aren't that much cheaper.
In fact that highlights the problem with Cfexes to me. Consider the table below ranked on a scale of 1 to 10
Dakkafexes are good against Guard Equiv., and Air. They are ok against Mech and Marine Equiv. Meanwhile Crones and Harpies can do better with Mech and MEQ. Exocrines are better at TEQ. TFexes are great at survivability. Before the dataslates, carnifexes ability to be taken in broods helped their desirability, but now that FOC is less constraining, they are less desirable, and they aren't that much cheaper.
Is your table arbitrarily using the 1-10 range to rank those units? Just for the sake of argument, I would say that a T-fex with AG should be a 3 for maneuverability vs the stock dakkafex.
roxor08 wrote: Is your table arbitrarily using the 1-10 range to rank those units? Just for the sake of argument, I would say that a T-fex with AG should be a 3 for maneuverability vs the stock dakkafex.
Sure Adrenals would up the mobility of anything by 1. but in the table I was using TFex with thorax Electroshock Grubs as my comparison because that is how I run him 90% of the time, and I felt like it was more comparable to a Carnifex w/ 2 TL Devourers.
I mainly put numerical rankings to see where people disagree. They are just my opinions there isn't any formula behind it.
Dakkafexes are one of the best units in the Codex, second only to the Flyrants. Sadly one of their drawbacks is their lack of mobility, which prevents them from being useful in the Hive Mind more powerful weapon, the Skyblight Swarm.
But if you aren't running a Skyblight Swarm because reasons, then Dakkafexes are almost a must.
rigeld2 wrote: You gave a Carnifex survivability a 4 and an Exocrine a 6.
Same toughness. Same armor save. One more wound on an Exocrine. And it's easier to get obscured with a Carnifex.
+1 for 1 additional wound. +1 for the role that the Exocrine serves, which is ranged fire support. That means it doesn't run out front like the Carnifex. I went back and forward between 5 and 6 for the Exocrine.
-1 for 1 less Toughness, + 1 for 1 wound. + 2 for swooping requiring snapshots. I probably should have docked a point for their play style. You have to fly them right at the enemy to use them optimally. Especially the Crone.
rigeld2 wrote: And an exocrine has a 5 for range while a dakkafex has a 3 - despite there being only a 6" difference.
That 6" is an extra turn of shooting which is a pretty big deal.
rigeld2 wrote: I think you just don't like the Carnifex - which is fine. Just admit you don't like it. It's worked really well for many other people.
It isn't about liking or not liking Canifexes. I love the model. I have 4 of them. I think of them like I riddle that I haven't figured out how to solve. People seem to find them effective in a way that I haven't. Maybe it is because my meta is almost entirely gun line armies.
A true 6th Ed. Dakkafex loadout, what is it, specifically? Is it two Devourer arms, (left & right) at 12 shots, or is it four Devourer arms at 12 shots?
If it's two arms and there's an extra set of arm sockets available, should they be filled with something like an HVC or ScyTals?
tag8833 wrote: It isn't about liking or not liking Canifexes. I love the model. I have 4 of them. I think of them like I riddle that I haven't figured out how to solve. People seem to find them effective in a way that I haven't. Maybe it is because my meta is almost entirely gun line armies.
Entirely gun line with average to lacking terrain? I could see Fexes not doing well there.
My normal 1850 list has 6 Carnifexes. I'm "fortunate" to have 2 different metas that I play in - the Houston hyper-competitive meta where Tau is common and the players are highly skilled, and my local meta where there's a lot of new blood and Tau are few and far between (Necron and Eldar are more common). In the Houston meta I do well, but I do often lose an entire Fex unit. In my local meta I often do really well, rarely losing an entire fex unit. The Houston meta also has a good amount of terrain, including a large amount of LoS blocking. The local meta is the opposite as far as terrain goes.
A true 6th Ed. Dakkafex loadout, what is it, specifically? Is it two Devourer arms, (left & right) at 12 shots, or is it four Devourer arms at 12 shots?
If it's two arms and there's an extra set of arm sockets available, should they be filled with something like an HVC or ScyTals?
1 set is 2 arms, giving 6 shots (twin linked).
Dakka fex is 2 sets, 4 arms, giving 12 shots (twin linked).
-1 for 1 less Toughness, + 1 for 1 wound. + 2 for swooping requiring snapshots. I probably should have docked a point for their play style. You have to fly them right at the enemy to use them optimally. Especially the Crone.
A true 6th Ed. Dakkafex loadout, what is it, specifically? Is it two Devourer arms, (left & right) at 12 shots, or is it four Devourer arms at 12 shots?
If it's two arms and there's an extra set of arm sockets available, should they be filled with something like an HVC or ScyTals?
Since the kit only has one set and these can often be needed for flyrants as well, you will see many conversions for devourer armed fexes/hive tyrants. One of my models I got from someone else had a stranglethorn cannon converted with 4 gaunt devourers attached to the end to represent 2 sets of TLdevs so he put a pair of sycthing talons in the other sockets. Since we lost re-rolls with scything talons one set is just decoration.
tag8833 wrote: It isn't about liking or not liking Canifexes. I love the model. I have 4 of them. I think of them like I riddle that I haven't figured out how to solve. People seem to find them effective in a way that I haven't. Maybe it is because my meta is almost entirely gun line armies.
Entirely gun line with average to lacking terrain? I could see Fexes not doing well there.
My normal 1850 list has 6 Carnifexes. I'm "fortunate" to have 2 different metas that I play in - the Houston hyper-competitive meta where Tau is common and the players are highly skilled, and my local meta where there's a lot of new blood and Tau are few and far between (Necron and Eldar are more common). In the Houston meta I do well, but I do often lose an entire Fex unit. In my local meta I often do really well, rarely losing an entire fex unit. The Houston meta also has a good amount of terrain, including a large amount of LoS blocking. The local meta is the opposite as far as terrain goes.
I've been upping the terrain LOS blocking in my games. I may have used "gun line" as a key word where I didn't mean to. Tau gun line is the easiest game for me to get because everybody fear them, but there are Dark Eldar, Marines, IG, Eldar, Demons (beasts of Nurgle), Necrons, and Orks. Except for the demons player, the Orks, and one of the Necrons, everybody mainly holds back at max range and fire away, or castle up inside vehicles. Not many scout moves, or Assault attempts. Even the Ork player likes to run 30+ lootas, and when I played him, the only assault he tried was a biker warboss into a Mawloc. His 8 or 9 Nob biker unit was going to assault a Zoey, but killed it in shooting.
-1 for 1 less Toughness, + 1 for 1 wound. + 2 for swooping requiring snapshots. I probably should have docked a point for their play style. You have to fly them right at the enemy to use them optimally. Especially the Crone.
And another -1 or -2 for the 4+ sv
Good point. They are very survivable in the air, but once they hit the dirt it is over pretty fast.
Ventus wrote: Since the kit only has one set and these can often be needed for flyrants as well, you will see many conversions for devourer armed fexes/hive tyrants. One of my models I got from someone else had a stranglethorn cannon converted with 4 gaunt devourers attached to the end to represent 2 sets of TLdevs so he put a pair of sycthing talons in the other sockets. Since we lost re-rolls with scything talons one set is just decoration.
I run Gaunt devourers. They are only a little bit small, and don't look that out of place.
Played in Dark Star GT 74 People turned out, Had a great showing, going 3 and 2, with all 3 wins being tabled opponents and my 2 losses actually coming to.....
wait
ORCS, W T F ....
Yep both losses to Orcs, just dumb dumb play on my part not taking them seriously, I also was far to easy going in the first game and let my opponent make a bunch of rules error's that were all in his favor, I actually thought it wouldn't matter. Sadly he repaired a vehicle and deffa rolled over my MAWLOCK :( to gain the victory last turn.
My list wasn't what I wanted either and I grabbed one wrong model !
I'll say the Mawlocks were super stars, wiping out whole squads and really just being all stars. Took 2nd best Nid player, losing out by 1 point, and it was in painting sadly.
I wanted to run only 2 Mawlocks and have a Harpy instead.
Anyways, I'm fairly happy with the play of the new Nids, I used to always run Dakka-Fex in pods, I feel foot slogging they are just not strong enough anymore.
Skyblight makes me a happy camper and I plan to run it in the upcoming 40Kegger event!
I think people undervalue outflanking devil-gaunts, they were very good at clearing off objectives for me!
tag8833 wrote: 6 of the wounds were from seeker missiles from skyrays with Marker light buffs. No saves of any kind. At that point I just had to make around 27 of 32 saves from Broadsides, Riptides and Crises Suites with Buffmander to stay alive. I didn't do it, but that isn't bad rolls. That is typical rolls. I very, very rarely see firewarriors. Because they die unlike riptides, broadsides, and suites, the Tau players in my local meta almost never take them.
Mate..
There is literally nothing in the game that would survive an entire Tau army being shot at them. You can not use that as a reference to say a Carnifex does not survive a battle, in fact name me one thing that would survive all that shooting?
Congrats! Tyranids are definitely strong against the more "normal" armies. However, you have to be careful about under-estimating your opponent. That's what happened to one of my opponents who ran Tyranids against my Walking Dead Chaos list. What should have probably been an easy victory for him turned out to be a massacre for me because his big guys got stuck in combat with hordes of zombies. Lol.
Guys, going to be out of this thread for a few days. Going to my very 1st Adepticon ever. I only wish I was bringing my bugs but alas, they aren't done yet.
tag8833 wrote: 6 of the wounds were from seeker missiles from skyrays with Marker light buffs. No saves of any kind. At that point I just had to make around 27 of 32 saves from Broadsides, Riptides and Crises Suites with Buffmander to stay alive. I didn't do it, but that isn't bad rolls. That is typical rolls. I very, very rarely see firewarriors. Because they die unlike riptides, broadsides, and suites, the Tau players in my local meta almost never take them.
Mate..
There is literally nothing in the game that would survive an entire Tau army being shot at them. You can not use that as a reference to say a Carnifex does not survive a battle, in fact name me one thing that would survive all that shooting?
jifel wrote: Good luck jy2! I'm assuming you'll be bringing your dreaded WraithCrons?
Yup. Mainly because my Tyranids aren't tournament-ready yet. But it is also because I'm not quite satisfied at their (my necrons) performance at the LVO, so here's hoping that I can do better than that.
Since the kit only has one set and these can often be needed for flyrants as well, you will see many conversions for devourer armed fexes/hive tyrants. One of my models I got from someone else had a stranglethorn cannon converted with 4 gaunt devourers attached to the end to represent 2 sets of TLdevs so he put a pair of sycthing talons in the other sockets. Since we lost re-rolls with scything talons one set is just decoration.
It's also really easy to make them from spare Crushing Claws and gaunt devourers. Every Nid player has spare claws.
Certainly far cheaper than the insane price FW charge for a pair.
tag8833 wrote: 6 of the wounds were from seeker missiles from skyrays with Marker light buffs. No saves of any kind. At that point I just had to make around 27 of 32 saves from Broadsides, Riptides and Crises Suites with Buffmander to stay alive. I didn't do it, but that isn't bad rolls. That is typical rolls. I very, very rarely see firewarriors. Because they die unlike riptides, broadsides, and suites, the Tau players in my local meta almost never take them.
Mate..
There is literally nothing in the game that would survive an entire Tau army being shot at them. You can not use that as a reference to say a Carnifex does not survive a battle, in fact name me one thing that would survive all that shooting?
Things that can survive a Tau Alpha Strike:
A TFex
A Flyrant behind a bastion
A Crone in reserves
Biovores behind terrain
A squad of 30 Gaunts
A Mawloc in Reserves.
I wasn't arguing that I should be able to avoid giving up first blood to Tau. I was just arguing that 3 Dakkafexes with adrenals clocking in at 495 points is too much to give up first turn. If he shoots at an exocrine first. He will kill it. But he won't be able to kill 2 Exocrines on the 1st turn. So I'm out 170 as opposed to 495 a much better result. Lets say I was running those Dakkafexes in separate squads of one CFex. I would probably have lost 2 of the 3 of them. That is 330 points. Still too much.
Lets say I'm facing Space marine gunline with Space Wolf allies, which is an army I've seen. Space wolves drop in a drop pod with a rune priest. Because Carnifexes are slow with short range and come in broods. They need to be near the edge of my deployment zone. That makes them harder to effectively bubble wrap against Jaws. A Tfex doesn't stand up any better in this case, but at least Tfexes run solo, so the chance of getting 2 is much lower.
Both of these scenarios are scenarios that go better if I run solo fexes, which is something I haven't done, and I will gladly give that a try. I'm going to run 3 broods of 1 Cfex. 2 Dakka Fexes and 1 AG + HVC Fex (unless someone would recommend other wargear). I'll give that a few looks against a few different armies, and see if the results come out better than my past experiences running broods of Carnifexes.
tag8833 wrote: Things that can survive a Tau Alpha Strike:
A TFex
A Flyrant behind a bastion
A Crone in reserves
Biovores behind terrain
A squad of 30 Gaunts
A Mawloc in Reserves.
I wasn't arguing that I should be able to avoid giving up first blood to Tau. I was just arguing that 3 Dakkafexes with adrenals clocking in at 495 points is too much to give up first turn. If he shoots at an exocrine first. He will kill it. But he won't be able to kill 2 Exocrines on the 1st turn. So I'm out 170 as opposed to 495 a much better result. Lets say I was running those Dakkafexes in separate squads of one CFex. I would probably have lost 2 of the 3 of them. That is 330 points. Still too much.
Lets say I'm facing Space marine gunline with Space Wolf allies, which is an army I've seen. Space wolves drop in a drop pod with a rune priest. Because Carnifexes are slow with short range and come in broods. They need to be near the edge of my deployment zone. That makes them harder to effectively bubble wrap against Jaws. A Tfex doesn't stand up any better in this case, but at least Tfexes run solo, so the chance of getting 2 is much lower.
Both of these scenarios are scenarios that go better if I run solo fexes, which is something I haven't done, and I will gladly give that a try. I'm going to run 3 broods of 1 Cfex. 2 Dakka Fexes and 1 AG + HVC Fex (unless someone would recommend other wargear). I'll give that a few looks against a few different armies, and see if the results come out better than my past experiences running broods of Carnifexes.
Using things in reserve or out of LOS as an argument is just silly, and no a squad of gaunts or a Tfex will not survive as much shooting as your Fex's did.. FWIW the Biovores out of LOS will not survive either! What you are arguing is in YOUR meta these things are the case, where i had a problem with that is when you assumed that there survivability is based on your experience. I and it seems allot of others here do not loose nearly as many Fex's as you do as early. I completely agree though that in your meta if you are loosing the brood too fast you should split them up and now we have data slates with them out of FOC
Regardless of all this, if your meta is mostly castles and fire power you'd have more luck with a crap ton of FMC 's (and maybe a couple of Mawloc's) anyway id assume.
I've found that the weakest link in most of the formations are surprise surprise; the Warriors due to their inherent squishiness against mid-power and high-power weapons.
With how pricey they are and how easily they go splat it's a bit hard to get them to pull their own weight before a riptide instagibs them or they get splattered by Karandras.
I'm usually inclined to keep them cheap but this makes gibbing them easier. I've settled on giving them toxin sacs, deathspitters, and rending claws for a reasonably TAC load-out. Sometimes I throw on adrenal glands too if I feel the need to hit at S5 at the start of combat.
Warriors already have a fair load of attacks at a good initiative, and rending with poison makes this load-out very respectable against MEQs and TEQs in assautl. LWs and BSs may be more effective against monstrous creatures/multiwound models, but the ability to more effectively hurt TEQ saves and threaten vehicles and rending +poison being more or less good enough against MCs/multiwounds makes the claws more attractive to me.
Due to the Prime's greatly increased price for no gain and occupation of an entire HQ slot for one unit, I don't feel very comfortable with attatching him to Warrior units anymore.
Venom cannons are pretty awful (made even worse by you only being allowed one to a brood) and I don't recommend them. Barbed stranglers are slightly better, but still I think the deathspitter is far and away the best gun you can put on Warriors.
Going pure melee does make for a great murder unit (unless faced with instant death weapons) but with the old book I rarely found stacking CCWs to be worth losing shooting and in the new book I rarely find the extra-attack/option to switch special effects worth losing out on dakka either.
With this build, Warriors are still criminally overpriced but they at least make for decent bully units (keep well away from true specialists like Hammernators and Wraiths, but anything else is fair game) and can put out respectable dakka as well.
This way, the warrior tax on formations doesn't necessarily have to be a burden.
They still either need a buff or a price cut and the fixing of some weapons options to ever really compete with Termagants as the go-to troops choice though.
"Things that can survive a Tau Alpha Strike:
A TFex
A Flyrant behind a bastion
A Crone in reserves
Biovores behind terrain
A squad of 30 Gaunts
A Mawloc in Reserves"
Kain wrote: I've found that the weakest link in most of the formations are surprise surprise; the Warriors due to their inherent squishiness against mid-power and high-power weapons.
With how pricey they are and how easily they go splat it's a bit hard to get them to pull their own weight before a riptide instagibs them or they get splattered by Karandras.
I'm usually inclined to keep them cheap but this makes gibbing them easier. I've settled on giving them toxin sacs, deathspitters, and rending claws for a reasonably TAC load-out. Sometimes I throw on adrenal glands too if I feel the need to hit at S5 at the start of combat.
I'd love to hear (from others too) how this kind of Warrior loadout typically performs. My gut reaction is that this is the perfect example of a sunk-cost fallacy. The extra points you're sinking into the unit doesn't really make it anymore resilent - anything likely to charge it is going to have at least I4 and land some hits, plus have far better wounds/armour for absorbing return damage. Even with these upgrades, Warriors won't be throwing out enough attacks to block anything more than a casual assault.
In my mind that's 30-45pts sunk that could have been better spent on a Venomthrope to protect them from fire, on Regeneration to keep your Hive Tyrant alive, or simply just on another Warrior to absorb damage / inflict more attacks.
As for fixing Warriors, I think changing their default loadouts and upgrade costs would go a long way. Leave them at 30pts, but include the Deathspitter as the default weapon. Allow it to be swapped with ScyTals, Rending Claws, or twin-linked Devourers for free.
CHeap cheap cheap, my Tyranid are all about cheap. Hormagaunts with toxins? Nope! Vanilla! Fleet on my Carnifexi? Nope! STomp around like Godzilla, even if it means you fail a charge now and then.
Less points per model = more bodies, and more bodies = both more attacks and more wound absorbtion, which is critical for Troops selections.
Currently, my Warrior mix is as follows:
One with Rending Claws and a Barbed Strangler.
Two with Rending Claws and Devourerers
Three with Deathspitters and scything talons
The six of them come to 220 points, but sport 18 wounds, at Toughness 4 and Sv 4+ (And a cover save of 3+ thanks to the Venomthrope nearby)
I'm toying with the idea of removing one Rending set for a set of Boneswords, taking the role of "veteran sergeant" for the group, but I've not experimented with it yet.
From there, positioning varies by foe. Fighting Marines? Let the Deathspitters go up front so that the Rending CLaws last longer for when you get to melee. Fighting squishies with armor 5+ or worse? Put the rending claws in front and blast away with the Deathspitters.
These "tactical builds" aren't as focused as some of the crazy melee combat teams I've seen, but I don't run Warriors at 50+ points each, either.
Let the Elites and Heavies do the heavy lifting of breaking the other guy's army, your Troops are there to absorb the damage and take objectives. Anything that they kill is just a bonus.
Kain wrote: I've found that the weakest link in most of the formations are surprise surprise; the Warriors due to their inherent squishiness against mid-power and high-power weapons.
With how pricey they are and how easily they go splat it's a bit hard to get them to pull their own weight before a riptide instagibs them or they get splattered by Karandras.
I'm usually inclined to keep them cheap but this makes gibbing them easier. I've settled on giving them toxin sacs, deathspitters, and rending claws for a reasonably TAC load-out. Sometimes I throw on adrenal glands too if I feel the need to hit at S5 at the start of combat.
I'd love to hear (from others too) how this kind of Warrior loadout typically performs. My gut reaction is that this is the perfect example of a sunk-cost fallacy. The extra points you're sinking into the unit doesn't really make it anymore resilent - anything likely to charge it is going to have at least I4 and land some hits, plus have far better wounds/armour for absorbing return damage. Even with these upgrades, Warriors won't be throwing out enough attacks to block anything more than a casual assault.
In my mind that's 30-45pts sunk that could have been better spent on a Venomthrope to protect them from fire, on Regeneration to keep your Hive Tyrant alive, or simply just on another Warrior to absorb damage / inflict more attacks.
As for fixing Warriors, I think changing their default loadouts and upgrade costs would go a long way. Leave them at 30pts, but include the Deathspitter as the default weapon. Allow it to be swapped with ScyTals, Rending Claws, or twin-linked Devourers for free.
They may as well not show up at all in small games due to price, and in large games they still eat up a chunk of my army points that makes me uneasy.
They excel at nothing save for spitting out S5 shots in bulk and perhaps opening up SoBs and MEQ/TEQs thanks to rerolling wounds+rending, in non-homebrew heavy games they still usually get splatted by the first riptide that gets markerlights on them or by Manticores or whatever big damn pieplate is thrown at them, and when pitted against Wraiths they repeatedly can't get quite close enough before the Wraiths jump in, coil everything down, and then make confetti (if they have a D-lord with them it gets even uglier), but they generally made for decent bully units.
The potential synergy with primes is neutered by you only being allowed one Prime per HQ slot and the Prime's unreasonably high cost.
Agree that the warriors are fairly useless. I could see a large warrior army being fairly hard to kill (once your FMC's take out the Str 8) but it's allot more fun playing with other units.
My warriors sit there and provide backfield synapse on an objective whilst missing with a VC every turn lol... They are pretty good backfield objective holders. I think I need to give them rending claws and lash whips though to take on backfield threats.
Primes are much better off attached to other broods (like carnifex, or gaunt) id imagine?
I like to use Warriors in my lists, typically I use Nidzilla type lists though so there's other, more pertinent, threats to my opponents. No one shoots at Warriors with a 3+ cover save when there's 7 MCs bearing down on them.
It's more a list style thing - Warriors don't just fit into all lists.
We only have 3 Troops choices that don't need Synapse, and one of them takes 30 Termagants to field as Troops, so Warriors definitely have a place. Not because they're good, but because we need Scoring units and everything else in the Troops section is also mediocre.
My Warriors never die! Because I only every take 3. From the Living Artillery formation. And they Hide. Behind LoS Blocking Terrain. With a Venomthrope and my 3 Biovores.
They're terrible and the only reason I take those 3 other then the fact that I'm forced to is for the scatter Re-Rolls and Synapse (Saves me getting a Zoan) and to sit on an objective I put back there.
i poo-poo at warriors. a lot. because they're awful.
however, if you've made a list that has enough threats and pressure, the last thing the enemy should be doing is shooting at your MSU warriors. the flyrants/crones/tfexes/etc should be doing work while the 'warriors' are drinking coffee and smoking cigarettes somewhere safely out of sight. give the enemy something they *have* to deal with, and while its eating their face your warriors won't be getting shot up quite so much.
That's so true - the only reason warriors are "good" (loose use of the term) is because falling out of synapse is so terribly bad with this book. I miss the days of warrior broods stomping across the table with EW, flinging s5 pie plates at 24" then getting into combat and actually winning. Now all they excel at is hiding and babysitting, with the occasional barbed strangler helping out once in awhile. Such a waste for an iconic model in the range.
1800 points on the dot. I like this list - plenty of psychic powers (7 rolls), a decent synapse bubble, a backfield synapse scoring unit (Warriors), 3 termagant units to contest and plenty of MCs to be aggressive with and plenty of firepower.
My concerns? The troops are squishy. I know anyone with an ounce of sense will focus them down quickly. However, in respect to that 2 Flyrants and 2 Crones can be aggressive fast and I plan on marching the foot Tyrant forward with the Carnifexes and being aggressive with them as well. Hopefully they'll distract from the gants!
Opinions?
Also, if anyone else wants to come up with other ideas for 1800 points - my limitations are above. Trying to settle with something quick as my next few weeks will be painting the army up.
Formations I like the look of and can field...
Endless Swarm - Because troops are important. 7 troops outside of Force Org is wonderful.
Bioblast Node - Because I love MCs and rerolling wounds is wonderful on dakkafexes.
Synaptic Swarm - Because 18" Synapse bubbles.
I had little planning interest in the others - Lictors serve no real purpose in the army, Genestealers are hideously vulnerable to overwatch, combat Fexes are...meh.
1800 points on the dot. I like this list - plenty of psychic powers (7 rolls), a decent synapse bubble, a backfield synapse scoring unit (Warriors), 3 termagant units to contest and plenty of MCs to be aggressive with and plenty of firepower.
My concerns? The troops are squishy. I know anyone with an ounce of sense will focus them down quickly. However, in respect to that 2 Flyrants and 2 Crones can be aggressive fast and I plan on marching the foot Tyrant forward with the Carnifexes and being aggressive with them as well. Hopefully they'll distract from the gants!
Opinions?
Also, if anyone else wants to come up with other ideas for 1800 points - my limitations are above. Trying to settle with something quick as my next few weeks will be painting the army up.
Formations I like the look of and can field...
Endless Swarm - Because troops are important. 7 troops outside of Force Org is wonderful.
Bioblast Node - Because I love MCs and rerolling wounds is wonderful on dakkafexes.
Synaptic Swarm - Because 18" Synapse bubbles.
I had little planning interest in the others - Lictors serve no real purpose in the army, Genestealers are hideously vulnerable to overwatch, combat Fexes are...meh.
Take a look at my Endless Tunnel Assault list(s) You might have to mod it a might, but it should have some usable ideas...
1800 points on the dot. I like this list - plenty of psychic powers (7 rolls), a decent synapse bubble, a backfield synapse scoring unit (Warriors), 3 termagant units to contest and plenty of MCs to be aggressive with and plenty of firepower.
My concerns? The troops are squishy. I know anyone with an ounce of sense will focus them down quickly. However, in respect to that 2 Flyrants and 2 Crones can be aggressive fast and I plan on marching the foot Tyrant forward with the Carnifexes and being aggressive with them as well. Hopefully they'll distract from the gants!
Opinions?
Also, if anyone else wants to come up with other ideas for 1800 points - my limitations are above. Trying to settle with something quick as my next few weeks will be painting the army up.
Formations I like the look of and can field...
Endless Swarm - Because troops are important. 7 troops outside of Force Org is wonderful.
Bioblast Node - Because I love MCs and rerolling wounds is wonderful on dakkafexes.
Synaptic Swarm - Because 18" Synapse bubbles.
I had little planning interest in the others - Lictors serve no real purpose in the army, Genestealers are hideously vulnerable to overwatch, combat Fexes are...meh.
As long as you have room in the FOC, you might want to split that into 3 CFex squads, or drop 1 fex for a squad of Biovores. Or, you could drop one Dakkafex for a bubble wrap / tarpit of Gargoyles (and put each fex in a squad of one)
The Kill point increase is offset by the likelihood of additional scoring units in Scouring or Big Guns.
Yep. There is only 2 Carnifexes total in that list.
3 Tyrants
2 Carnifexes
2 Crones.
They're both already individual broods as well.
My bad. I read 2 TL Devourers as 2 Fexes. In that case, dropping one would be a significant drop in firepower. Probably not worth it. List looks good as is.
On Saturday i attended a small Tournament at our local game shop. Top Prize was an Imperial Knight, with a store credit for second and third place. It was only a 1000 point list and i really dont have the most optimized units, but here is my list:
Flyrant 2 x Twin Linked Devs Venomthrope
30 Termagaunts (15 with Devs)
Tervagon with Crushing Claws
10 Genestealers
3 Warriors (2 Deathspitters, Barbed Strangler)
2 Biovores
Game 1:
Big Guns Never Tire, Dawn of War Deployment, 5 Objectives.
OpponentL Tau: (Going from memory)
Commander Farsight (with a ton of gun drons)
Riptide
4 Pathfinders
3 Squads of 3 Crisis suits
I thought he was going to have this one in the bag. This was the game i was most worried about, and was hoping i did not draw the Tau player. But it was a good hard fought game. Venomthorpe gave up First Blood for him. Very fun game, the Tervigon never corked and ended up putting out way over 40 gaunts. In the end, there were so many small targets the Tau player was not sure what to kill. The Refs called the at turn 5, I lost by 1 point, if they had let us go on, i feel i could have contested both of the objectives he held, if not outright taken them from him.
Final Score Tau 8, Nids 7
Second Game:
Crusade, Hammer and Anvil, 4 Objectives
Opponent: Ultramarines (Very new player, hope he had a great time and keeps playing)
M Calgar
Tact Squad (Missle Launcher, Flamer)
Tact Squad (Flamer, Grav Pistol)
Dreadnaught
Storm Tallon (Twin Linked Lascannon)
Thunderfire cannon
This game was an odd one, the center of the table was filled by a massive LOS blocking hill, between it and Hammer and Anvil it took until turn 3 to get First blood (Hive Tyrrant took out Dreadnaught). Turn 4 I took out his flyer, and my genestealers ate one squad holding one of his objectives. Game ended on turn 5. This was my first time fighting a Thunderfire cannon, that thing was just eating through my small bugs.
I have fought this list a few times before, and each time its a hard go for my bugs. He put his object in a far corner guarded by the Defiler and a squad of zombies, his oblitorators were up in ruins. This was another game that took a long time for things to get going turn 3 I finally got first blood after both my Hive Tyrant and genestealers locked up the zombies on the objective. He killed my tyrant next turn when the defiler charged in. I was trying to move as many troops as i could onto his objective as my genestealers held the defiler up. But between his oblitoratrs, turkey he kept killing them off just shy of claiming it. Good game, ended at turn 5
Final Points: Chaos 1, Nids; 4
In the end i had a great time, this was my first time in a tournament setting. Hoping the next one is a bit bigger. After all the other games were over, and painting points were added in, I won by 1 point. Second place was the Tau i faced first game, and third was a Dark Eldar player.
I was surprised how well i did with a very non optimized list. The MVP this game was the Tervagon, she was a beast.
On Saturday i attended a small Tournament at our local game shop. Top Prize was an Imperial Knight, with a store credit for second and third place. It was only a 1000 point list and i really dont have the most optimized units, but here is my list:
Flyrant 2 x Twin Linked Devs Venomthrope
30 Termagaunts (15 with Devs)
Tervagon with Crushing Claws
10 Genestealers
3 Warriors (2 Deathspitters, Barbed Strangler)
2 Biovores
Game 1:
Big Guns Never Tire, Dawn of War Deployment, 5 Objectives.
OpponentL Tau: (Going from memory)
Commander Farsight (with a ton of gun drons)
Riptide
4 Pathfinders
3 Squads of 3 Crisis suits
I thought he was going to have this one in the bag. This was the game i was most worried about, and was hoping i did not draw the Tau player. But it was a good hard fought game. Venomthorpe gave up First Blood for him. Very fun game, the Tervigon never corked and ended up putting out way over 40 gaunts. In the end, there were so many small targets the Tau player was not sure what to kill. The Refs called the at turn 5, I lost by 1 point, if they had let us go on, i feel i could have contested both of the objectives he held, if not outright taken them from him.
Final Score Tau 8, Nids 7
Second Game:
Crusade, Hammer and Anvil, 4 Objectives
Opponent: Ultramarines (Very new player, hope he had a great time and keeps playing)
M Calgar
Tact Squad (Missle Launcher, Flamer)
Tact Squad (Flamer, Grav Pistol)
Dreadnaught
Storm Tallon (Twin Linked Lascannon)
Thunderfire cannon
This game was an odd one, the center of the table was filled by a massive LOS blocking hill, between it and Hammer and Anvil it took until turn 3 to get First blood (Hive Tyrrant took out Dreadnaught). Turn 4 I took out his flyer, and my genestealers ate one squad holding one of his objectives. Game ended on turn 5. This was my first time fighting a Thunderfire cannon, that thing was just eating through my small bugs.
I have fought this list a few times before, and each time its a hard go for my bugs. He put his object in a far corner guarded by the Defiler and a squad of zombies, his oblitorators were up in ruins. This was another game that took a long time for things to get going turn 3 I finally got first blood after both my Hive Tyrant and genestealers locked up the zombies on the objective. He killed my tyrant next turn when the defiler charged in. I was trying to move as many troops as i could onto his objective as my genestealers held the defiler up. But between his oblitoratrs, turkey he kept killing them off just shy of claiming it. Good game, ended at turn 5
Final Points: Chaos 1, Nids; 4
In the end i had a great time, this was my first time in a tournament setting. Hoping the next one is a bit bigger. After all the other games were over, and painting points were added in, I won by 1 point. Second place was the Tau i faced first game, and third was a Dark Eldar player.
I was surprised how well i did with a very non optimized list. The MVP this game was the Tervagon, she was a beast.
Thanx for the info! Yep, in small point games the Big Bugs really shine
Iechine wrote: Havent been playing lately/havent wanted to, so not much new thought wise.
Doing a local tournament at the end of the month that doesnt allow dataslates or allies. Looks like I'm taking
1850pts
Two Flyrants w/devourers, ES Grubs and HC Two Lictors
Warrior brood w/Scy and Rending claws, 1 LW/BS Warrior brood w/Scy and Rending claws, 1 LW/BS Warrior brood w/devourers, 1 VC Crone
Crone
Crone
Mawloc
Mawloc
Mawloc
Headhunter warrior broods both outflank, hopefully one Lictor secures a critical Mawloc money shot. Continuing my no need for synapse ideas.
Swap a crone for a harpy with a STC. Add in cluster spines and for about the same points you have an answer to hordes/light troops. The crones are awesome but they need to constantly be close to the enemy to do damage. Harpies can fly around the tape and harass key units, and their -5 initiative modifiers can help swing a key assault in your favor if necessary
Iechine wrote: Havent been playing lately/havent wanted to, so not much new thought wise.
Doing a local tournament at the end of the month that doesnt allow dataslates or allies. Looks like I'm taking
1850pts
Two Flyrants w/devourers, ES Grubs and HC Two Lictors
Warrior brood w/Scy and Rending claws, 1 LW/BS Warrior brood w/Scy and Rending claws, 1 LW/BS Warrior brood w/devourers, 1 VC Crone
Crone
Crone
Mawloc
Mawloc
Mawloc
Headhunter warrior broods both outflank, hopefully one Lictor secures a critical Mawloc money shot. Continuing my no need for synapse ideas.
Swap a crone for a harpy
No. No no no. Never swap a Crone, and certainly not against a Harpy. Crones have unparallelled utility and kill about as much infantry as Harpies, between vector and Drool Cannon. They are actually better at killing infantry than HVC Harpies.
The list is fine, have fun!
Fair enough - I personally like both units but whatever works best for you is just fine too.
Hey, on an unrelated (but quite humorous) note - it appears the guard codex is getting the EXACT same treatment as tyranids. Largely unchanged rules, dropped points in some places but raised in others (vendetta), and some models are supposedly no longer in it. I'm giggling reading the comments because I went through this back in January.
The good thing is we have learned to make and play good lists, I'm sure guard players will still be able to as well.
rigeld2 wrote: I heard Pask is going to make the Punisher Heavy 20 Rending, and can receive an Ignores Cover order...
How is that getting the Tyranid treatment? Paskquisher + 2 Executioners in a squadron with Ignores Cover...
Because our flying hive tyrants got 30 pts cheaper and gained bs4? A handful of buffs for each codex still follows the trend. Just look at some of the comments on natfka's site and you'll see what I'm talking about.
PrinceRaven wrote: Unless Astra Militarum get an army-wide special rule that actively screws them over they'll still be better off than Tyranids.
All Astra Militarum infantry units must include a Commissar. Whenever an infantry unit is required to take a morale test, the Commissar immediately executes D3 models. If the test is failed, he executes a further D6 models and the test is re-rolled.
PrinceRaven wrote: Unless Astra Militarum get an army-wide special rule that actively screws them over they'll still be better off than Tyranids.
All Astra Militarum infantry units must include a Commissar. Whenever an infantry unit is required to take a morale test, the Commissar immediately executes D3 models. If the test is failed, he executes a further D6 models and the test is re-rolled.
PrinceRaven wrote: Unless Astra Militarum get an army-wide special rule that actively screws them over they'll still be better off than Tyranids.
All Astra Militarum infantry units must include a Commissar. Whenever an infantry unit is required to take a morale test, the Commissar immediately executes D3 models. If the test is failed, he executes a further D6 models and the test is re-rolled.
Is this true or did you make that up?
It says a lot about modern GW when something that nuts is believable.
PrinceRaven wrote: Unless Astra Militarum get an army-wide special rule that actively screws them over they'll still be better off than Tyranids.
All Astra Militarum infantry units must include a Commissar. Whenever an infantry unit is required to take a morale test, the Commissar immediately executes D3 models. If the test is failed, he executes a further D6 models and the test is re-rolled.
After the Adepticon Team Tournament I have to say a few things about Tyranids.
Stranglethorn Cannons are insane...literally insane against a wide variety of different armies...two of our team members were Tau and my fexes were outshining Broadsides and Riptides in most games.
Fexes are my favorite and best answer to Wave Serpents / Eldar suck at killing Tyranids...they're really really bad at it.
We have the best codex psychic table in the game (Only Divination beats it)
I made full use of every single power I rolled.
Lone Venomthropes were the champions of the entire event. 2+ cover fearless termagants are amazing.
My teammate and I never failed a grounding test in 5 games (10 total) That was just awesome.
Minimum Synapse is 3 sources per 1000 pts...and I cannot be convinced otherwise.
And Adepticon is awesome, people are awesome, tyranids are awesome.
My opponents:
White Scars Bikers
10 Iron Hands Centurions
Salamanders/Imperial Fists
Taudar
Crone Spam Tyranids
PrinceRaven wrote: Unless Astra Militarum get an army-wide special rule that actively screws them over they'll still be better off than Tyranids.
All Astra Militarum infantry units must include a Commissar. Whenever an infantry unit is required to take a morale test, the Commissar immediately executes D3 models. If the test is failed, he executes a further D6 models and the test is re-rolled.
So it's a race. Can the commissars kill off the AM troops before the Tryanids eat themselves. LOL
My dakkaflyrant killed 3 StormTalons in the whole event. I believe my partner did about the same. The stormtalon was probably the most common unit at Adepticon.
Those shreddershards were pure money for bikes/podded troops, and enemy tyranids.
The Warriors are great because they're dangerous and synapse but not dangerous enough for your opponent to prioritize them.
The fexes murderfaced bikes, marines, tanks, everything. They get the same treatment as the warriors...not priority enough to be killed immediately so they just keep moving up slow and blasting away until they deliver a killing blow.
PrinceRaven wrote: Unless Astra Militarum get an army-wide special rule that actively screws them over they'll still be better off than Tyranids.
All Astra Militarum infantry units must include a Commissar. Whenever an infantry unit is required to take a morale test, the Commissar immediately executes D3 models. If the test is failed, he executes a further D6 models and the test is re-rolled.
Are you sure he isn't leading hormagaunts who are out of synapse?
Interesting that you dropped so many points on Troops. Were your Tau teammates going light on troops and letting you score objectives?
I rarely spend more than that on troops playing at 1850.
You rarely spend more than 500 pts on troops at 1850? What else are they supposed to run? You might make a case for dropping the warriors, but the tervie and Gant-tax seems pretty standard.
Interesting that you dropped so many points on Troops. Were your Tau teammates going light on troops and letting you score objectives?
I rarely spend more than that on troops playing at 1850.
You rarely spend more than 500 pts on troops at 1850? What else are they supposed to run? You might make a case for dropping the warriors, but the tervie and Gant-tax seems pretty standard.
Its not uncommon for me to run something like this:
3 Warriors (Barbed Strangler)
15 HGaunts
15 HGaunts
15 HGaunts
clocking in at 300 points
or
3 Warriors (Barbed Strangler) -> from living artillery
10 TGaunts
3 Warriors (Barbed Strangler)
10 TGaunts
280 points
or
exactly the troop loadout he ran. Only he ran it at 1000 points, and I run it at 1850.
At 1500 points I usually only have 3 troop options, and my most common is:
Tervigon + E. Grubs
30 Tgaunts
With the 3rd troop being a gaunt squad I expect to spawn.
3 Troops at 1500, 4 Troops at 1850 has always worked well for me. I've always had some troops remaining at the end of a game. I played one game where a Drop pod army tried to target my troops, but I won that game handily by targeting his troops right back, and contesting his only end game objective.
Unless I'm outflanking it, a Tervigon usually doesn't do as much damage as a base squad of warriors with a barbed strangler, because my meta is so gunline heavy, and I need firepower from my points to compete. Mawloc + 10 spinegaunts > Tervigon. Especially since the mawloc's burrow ability makes it pretty useful in contesting enemy objectives. Also, for whatever reason, the Tervigon tends to draw a lot of fire from opponents, where as they rarely even shoot at gaunts or warriors.
I have found a single Tervie to be great if you are playing a walking list, the additional cost pays itself for the cheaper gants, and a 30gant strong brood with some Devourers can throw a considerable firepower, as a poor Fateweaver experienced first hand.
I hope the Guard book doesn't get the same treatment as the Nids codex, I hope that people have learnt from that experience not to completely hammer something only to turn around 2 months later and say ohh we figured out how to win with them...
You rarely spend more than 500 pts on troops at 1850? What else are they supposed to run? You might make a case for dropping the warriors, but the tervie and Gant-tax seems pretty standard.
Its not uncommon for me to run something like this: 3 Warriors (Barbed Strangler) 15 HGaunts 15 HGaunts 15 HGaunts clocking in at 300 points or 3 Warriors (Barbed Strangler) -> from living artillery 10 TGaunts 3 Warriors (Barbed Strangler) 10 TGaunts 280 points or exactly the troop loadout he ran. Only he ran it at 1000 points, and I run it at 1850.
At 1500 points I usually only have 3 troop options, and my most common is: Tervigon + E. Grubs 30 Tgaunts With the 3rd troop being a gaunt squad I expect to spawn.
3 Troops at 1500, 4 Troops at 1850 has always worked well for me. I've always had some troops remaining at the end of a game. I played one game where a Drop pod army tried to target my troops, but I won that game handily by targeting his troops right back, and contesting his only end game objective.
Unless I'm outflanking it, a Tervigon usually doesn't do as much damage as a base squad of warriors with a barbed strangler, because my meta is so gunline heavy, and I need firepower from my points to compete. Mawloc + 10 spinegaunts > Tervigon. Especially since the mawloc's burrow ability makes it pretty useful in contesting enemy objectives. Also, for whatever reason, the Tervigon tends to draw a lot of fire from opponents, where as they rarely even shoot at gaunts or warriors.
The troops are one of the worst unit selections in our dex. The hardest part of Tyranids is juggling how much points to put into scoring units and how much points to put into good stuff (Flyrants, Crones, Mawlocs, Exocrines, Carnifex, T-Fex, Biovores, and Venomthrope being the core). Outflanking devilgants are no substitute for a pod, not only are they extremely unreliable in that they are very synapse dependant, short ranged, and could come onto the battlefield anywhere making it even easier to kill them, but they are also easy for your opponent to play around, not a good combination. Tervigon's are OK but have little damage output and rely on termagant rolls to make them worth their points, and if killed early game feel like a lot of points wasted (taking a 30 man gant squad which I do not see as free because I would NOT have taken it otherwise + 195 pts), and making them too much a liability for my liking. Being that I also want to keep my 30 man termagant squad AWAY from the Tervigon, means I need more Synapse sources too, which is ok because I generally want to be up front with the gants but backfield with the Tervigon, however two troop choices down and I have zero mobile synapse, which is generally what I want. Putting all your eggs in the Flyrant-Synapse basket not only screws with the positioning of a unit that you are paying big prices for its mobility, but I also find Flyrants to be pretty squishy, glass-cannon-esque 4W units who do need their mobility to survive but sometimes even that isn't enough to keep them up for long, it's a real possibility. I find myself mainly using troops for squads of min sized warriors. Point for point 6 warriors cost the same and are about as survivable as Tervigons except for S8 BLASTS. S8 shots still do just as much damage to each, 1 kills a warrior one takes a Tervigon wound, you still have 5 of each left. For anything lower you are sitting at about the same survivability, for every extra two wounds you take for having T4 instead of 6, you have an extra 2 wounds that the Tervigon doesn't. The only difference is generally the 4+ armor save which should be fixed by a venomthrope early game and hopefully won't be too relevant. On the flipside of the coin, the good part is I can split Warriors up into MSU, broaden my Synapse coverage, take a long range weapon on each, and make it harder to knock out 6 warriors in one round of shooting. Their own shooting is also obviously far nicer than Tervigons, especially with deathspitters on at least one unit. The only other troop choice that ever really interests me is min sized termagant squads for filling in FOC or cheap backfield scoring. Will still generally only take one of these.
If you do take Termagants in 30 units, I would not run more than 10 with Devourers. These troops would be so good if not for IB, and Synapse was not so hard to come by.
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bodazoka wrote: I hope the Guard book doesn't get the same treatment as the Nids codex, I hope that people have learnt from that experience not to completely hammer something only to turn around 2 months later and say ohh we figured out how to win with them...
A. The guard book looks badly handled, but no where near as badly as ours. GW really needs to put more time into codex releases though. B. if there is anyone turning around saying that about the Nid codex, then they are absolute idiots for complaining in the first place. The book is no stronger or weaker than it ever appeared at first glance. C. most of the hammering was (or should have been) about the lack of diversity and the loss of units that we had models for, not the strength of the book, and this "hammering" is still just as accurate today D. the main reason people starting winning a couple of months after the codex, is because skylight was released a couple of months after the codex
SHUPPET wrote: A. The guard book looks badly handled, but no where near as badly as ours. GW really needs to put more time into codex releases though.
B. if there is anyone turning around saying that about the Nid codex, then they are absolute idiots for complaining in the first place. The book is no stronger or weaker than it ever appeared at first glance.
C. most of the hammering was (or should have been) about the lack of diversity and the loss of units that we had models for, not the strength of the book, and this "hammering" is still just as accurate today
D. the main reason people starting winning a couple of months after the codex, is because skylight was released a couple of months after the codex
Would you be calling Reece and the other guys from FLG idiots?
C. Nope. the hammering was predominately centered around the lack of competitiveness to the point where I honestly believe if we had of been given a couple of harder hitting units the hate would of been allot less.
D. SkyBlight, and FWIW as many people complained that they had to buy a dataslate to do it and/or were not allowed to use formations in there FLGS, the article above also does not use any formations and apparently still "wins more games than it looses" which is a far cry from "this codex is worse than Orks"
SHUPPET wrote: The only other troop choice that ever really interests me is min sized termagant squads for filling in FOC or cheap backfield scoring. Will still generally only take one of these.
I actually think HGaunts are slightly better than TGaunts for min sized scoring units. They cost 10 points more, but the extra 3" of mobility has changed the outcome of a surprising number of games.
I just came back from Adepticon and I am happy to say that Tyranids were very welly represented at Adepticon. They might not have made it into the Championship rounds, but there were a lot of people bringing bugs.
And there are a lot of eye candy also. Soooo many nice armies. Enjoy.
Jay Woodcock's bugs.
Conversion city.
I soooo like the bright bugs. You can see them from a mile away.
"InControl" Geoff's yellow bugs.
The last 2 photos are from the team tournament, consisting of:
Dakka Detachment #1
Yakface
Blackmoor
Janthkin (ATC teammate of mine)
Centurian99 (ATC teammate of mine)
Overall, the competitive theme for most of the Tyranid armies included:
Those paint jobs are absolutely gorgeous, I can't find a single complaint. Even the canned response of "THIN YOUR PAINTS" doesn't seem to apply.
A+ grade work.
Also tried some living tides over a few days. The list is a little confused on what it wants to do besides model spam, but you will never be tabled outside of apoc. You probably will get your rear end handed to you in purge the alien though.
I'm a bit surprised that the list worked as well as it did though. I was apprehensive about dumping 3k points on something that wanted to be shooty, assaulty, MC spammy, Infantry Spammy, and Flying circusey all at once.
The Lictors continue to disappoint but honestly stealthy infiltrator units and flankers have had a bad run in 40k as a whole as of late. So the Lictors can be miserable with Kommandoz, Mandrakes, Genestealers, Flayed Ones, space marine scouts, ratlings, stealth suits, stormtroopers, and the like.
The deathleaper having a warlord trait that suggests it's a character assassin when it's one power fist away from being splattered also doesn't help. But hey, the Vindicaire is also far better for vehicle popping and Invulnerable save stripping than he is for actual assassination so it all balances out.
Back to the tide; getting Hormas to be effective is really pricey, and the lost of rerolls on ones hurts a surprising deal. It's a significant dip in killing power, and is especially noticeable on bigger bricks. Hypergaunts (Hormies with AGs and TSacs) still remain too pricey, but at least catalyst is good on them. Termas themselves got better by being cheaper, mixing and matching guns, and fixing other options for them. Their support however, has worsened. While the Tervi and Terma combo was hit hard, it's still good, just incredibly painful points budget wise and the tervi itself is much worse at support (also sucks to be you if it dies). The main reason reason to have it is to park six regenerating t6 wounds with a meq save on an objective. The synapse, spawning, and psychic abilities are really just a bonus.
Formations that give out slotless venomthropes are to be treasured because shrouded is just that worth it. Sit in area terrain and suddenly termas have MEQ saves, or your carnifex now sneers at krak missiles. Combine with catalyst if possible for best results.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but no dataslates at Adpeticon and highest Nid player was 26th with next at 37th and then 95th ... Seems that competitively the dataslates are the only way for Nids to compete properly and without them we have a distinctly lower tier codex.
Looking at army pics and there seems to be a large sea of flyrants, crones, termagants and then a mix of other units. FMCs, certainly without dataslates, is the only real way to compete at all unless you totally outplay your opponent.
Codex is not good, it is uninspired, and while I continue to work hard to get my Nids to work I am realistic about where the codex sits. You may be able to boss some games away from the serious stuff, but when you get to the main tournaments Nids just can't compete over a 6 game tournament ....
He's using standard foamboard for a display board for the minis with nice base-sized holes for everything to fit in. I've been wanting to do that but I can't figure out how to get those great circle cuts for bases.
SHUPPET wrote: Goddamn, does everyone there just have amazingly painted armies?
I was thinking "does everyone own an airbrush these days", lol.
IDK. It seems that if you're going to be painting Nids (and you're not Nard) you should be using an airbrush. The process is simply much more consistent and eases the painting of gradients which is key to making Tyranids look great.
ruminator wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but no dataslates at Adpeticon and highest Nid player was 26th with next at 37th and then 95th ... Seems that competitively the dataslates are the only way for Nids to compete properly and without them we have a distinctly lower tier codex.
This. 'A good showing for Nids' translates to 'there were some nicely painted Tyranid armies in the event'.
Its sad to say that the only competitive fix for Tyranids is the potential auto inclusion of everything into perhaps what might become 7th edition where things like dataslates are the norm.
Gargs that can score a contested objective is certainly a big big boost in the right direction.
ruminator wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but no dataslates at Adpeticon and highest Nid player was 26th with next at 37th and then 95th ... Seems that competitively the dataslates are the only way for Nids to compete properly and without them we have a distinctly lower tier codex.
This. 'A good showing for Nids' translates to 'there were some nicely painted Tyranid armies in the event'.
LOL. Where a tactics thread resorts to "look at the nice painted army" then there are obviously some issues with it's viability on the tabletop.
I'm just happy that, despite how "subpar" the community may think of Tyranids, people are not discouraged to take out their bugs to a major gaming event. That really is the main point of this thread - to let people know that Tyranids aren't as bad as most people think and to encourage people to give the bugs a chance in competitive play.
I consider the "success" of bugs at Adepticon not in how high they placed, but rather, by how many people were willing to run them at such a large tournament.
jy2 wrote: I'm just happy that, despite how "subpar" the community may think of Tyranids, people are not discouraged to take out their bugs to a major gaming event. That really is the main point of this thread - to let people know that Tyranids aren't as bad as most people think and to encourage people to give the bugs a chance in competitive play.
I consider the "success" of bugs at Adepticon not in how high they placed, but rather, by how many people were willing to run them at such a large tournament.
Well said. Me too. Good to see the Hive Mind's grip is as strong as ever. It's not about winning fights honestly, I never once cared if we would be a tournament placer or not - and I'm guessing that anyone who built a bug army with the current models has the same mindstate, since they have been consistently underpowered during.
It's about sticking the fear of the Shadow right up their Warp holes =D
jy2 wrote: I'm just happy that, despite how "subpar" the community may think of Tyranids, people are not discouraged to take out their bugs to a major gaming event. That really is the main point of this thread - to let people know that Tyranids aren't as bad as most people think and to encourage people to give the bugs a chance in competitive play.
I consider the "success" of bugs at Adepticon not in how high they placed, but rather, by how many people were willing to run them at such a large tournament.
I'd consider it a success if you were doing well with the bugs Jy2 and actually took them to Adepticon.
No offence dude but the fact that you didn't take Nids says a lot.
I'm pretty sure if you wanted to take them you would of insured to have them ready for the event.
.
Harridans are pretty neat. Good that you bested the Tau, a tourney woud be a great test as well.
