jy2 wrote: I'm just happy that, despite how "subpar" the community may think of Tyranids, people are not discouraged to take out their bugs to a major gaming event. That really is the main point of this thread - to let people know that Tyranids aren't as bad as most people think and to encourage people to give the bugs a chance in competitive play.
I consider the "success" of bugs at Adepticon not in how high they placed, but rather, by how many people were willing to run them at such a large tournament.
I'd consider it a success if you were doing well with the bugs Jy2 and actually took them to Adepticon.
No offence dude but the fact that you didn't take Nids says a lot.
I'm pretty sure if you wanted to take them you would of insured to have them ready for the event.
I didn't take them for a few reasons.
1. They weren't ready yet. They will be by the time the Golden Throne comes, which is when I am planning to take them out (or the Bay Area Open if it happens first).
2. I didn't want to check-in my army. Thus, for traveling, I prefer to take a smaller, more compact army. But for the local tournaments, Tyranids are going to have priority.
3. I wasn't satisfied with my necrons' performance at the LVO. This was their chance for redemption.
Bugs will have their moment to shine. Just because I didn't take them to Adepticon doesn't mean I don't have confidence with them.
L0rdF1end wrote: I'd consider it a success if you were doing well with the bugs Jy2 and actually took them to Adepticon.
No offence dude but the fact that you didn't take Nids says a lot.
I'm pretty sure if you wanted to take them you would of insured to have them ready for the event.
That's a tad harsh.
I didn't bring my Eldar or GKs to Adepticon...and definitely not because I think they're weak, they just weren't the playstyle I wanted to bring.
L0rdF1end wrote: I'd consider it a success if you were doing well with the bugs Jy2 and actually took them to Adepticon.
No offence dude but the fact that you didn't take Nids says a lot.
I'm pretty sure if you wanted to take them you would of insured to have them ready for the event.
That's a tad harsh.
I didn't bring my Eldar or GKs to Adepticon...and definitely not because I think they're weak, they just weren't the playstyle I wanted to bring.
Sorry, wasn't meant to come across as harsh, just an honest perception.
Jy2 rocks and I respect the time that he puts into the 40k community.
I had a game yesterday. It brought about a few Tactical questions.
Item 1: My opponent was a player I hadn't played before, who I had the impression was a pretty good player. Our game wasn't representative of his skill because he had never faced tyranids before, and he conceded on turn 3, which brings me up to 5-0 with my 1500 pts raveners list and 2-0 with an 1850 varient, and I'm starting to think it might be more legit than I first anticipated. I fear the day that I run into a monolith or Land Raider, or the IG tank with the S8 or 9 large blast (Executioner?). Anyways, the list has produced a consistency that I hadn't expected, and I wonder if anyone has comments on running a list this unbalanced. Also, any suggestions for updating the list to handle AV:14 without compromising what it does.
Item 2: He had 2 land speeders (separate squads) that he moved up very aggressively. I was able to vector strike each with one flyrant on turn 1. I chose to vector strike because they had a 4+ Jink, and I thought it might be enough to kill them (one died). It essentially allowed me to shoot at 2 separate units. Which made it worth it, but I tried to run the math on Vector Strike vs 1 TL devourer on AV:10 vehicle with 4+ Jink, and it is about the same. Average vector Strike is 3 hits. Average TL Devourer is 5.33 hits, but I would lose 1/2 of them to the Jink. However, the greater number of hits from the devourer reduces the unlucky roll where I get a 1, 2, 2 to wound, but it adds a chance that he rolls really well on his saves. So, it seems a toss up to me, is there anyone who would make a case for one over the other being more reliable?
Item 3: My opponent ran a giant squad of terminators with Lightening Claws. 10-12. At 1850 he adds a 2nd giant squad. We were both running "standard" lists, that we had prebuilt, and the only thing we knew about each others list, is that I warned him I was brining 2 FMC's. His list seems as unbalanced as mine, only I happen to have a very, very effective counter to his terminators in the form of my Raveners. Between 6 Raveners and 13 HGaunts, I killed 7 Terminators in the turn I charged. Imagine I was playing Dakkafexes + TFexes + Biovores + Flyrants with no Raveners, Mawlocs or Exocrines, would I want to do something like assault with Dakkafexes? Maybe Tarpit them with a TFex? Feed them Gaunts? Or, hold back plinking at them with Devourers?
He had 2 land speeders (separate squads) that he moved up very aggressively. I was able to vector strike each with one flyrant on turn 1. I chose to vector strike because they had a 4+ Jink, and I thought it might be enough to kill them (one died). It essentially allowed me to shoot at 2 separate units. Which made it worth it, but I tried to run the math on Vector Strike vs 1 TL devourer on AV:10 vehicle with 4+ Jink, and it is about the same. Average vector Strike is 3 hits. Average TL Devourer is 5.33 hits, but I would lose 1/2 of them to the Jink. However, the greater number of hits from the devourer reduces the unlucky roll where I get a 1, 2, 2 to wound, but it adds a chance that he rolls really well on his saves. So, it seems a toss up to me, is there anyone who would make a case for one over the other being more reliable?
I ran into the same problem...I chose to vector strike because I could then see if the Vector managed to kill the speeder and then choose to either shoot it if It didn't die...or shoot something else if it did die.
tag8833 wrote: I had a game yesterday. It brought about a few Tactical questions.
Item 1:
My opponent was a player I hadn't played before, who I had the impression was a pretty good player. Our game wasn't representative of his skill because he had never faced tyranids before, and he conceded on turn 3, which brings me up to 5-0 with my 1500 pts raveners list and 2-0 with an 1850 varient, and I'm starting to think it might be more legit than I first anticipated. I fear the day that I run into a monolith or Land Raider, or the IG tank with the S8 or 9 large blast (Executioner?). Anyways, the list has produced a consistency that I hadn't expected, and I wonder if anyone has comments on running a list this unbalanced. Also, any suggestions for updating the list to handle AV:14 without compromising what it does.
Item 2:
He had 2 land speeders (separate squads) that he moved up very aggressively. I was able to vector strike each with one flyrant on turn 1. I chose to vector strike because they had a 4+ Jink, and I thought it might be enough to kill them (one died). It essentially allowed me to shoot at 2 separate units. Which made it worth it, but I tried to run the math on Vector Strike vs 1 TL devourer on AV:10 vehicle with 4+ Jink, and it is about the same. Average vector Strike is 3 hits. Average TL Devourer is 5.33 hits, but I would lose 1/2 of them to the Jink. However, the greater number of hits from the devourer reduces the unlucky roll where I get a 1, 2, 2 to wound, but it adds a chance that he rolls really well on his saves. So, it seems a toss up to me, is there anyone who would make a case for one over the other being more reliable?
Item 3:
My opponent ran a giant squad of terminators with Lightening Claws. 10-12. At 1850 he adds a 2nd giant squad. We were both running "standard" lists, that we had prebuilt, and the only thing we knew about each others list, is that I warned him I was brining 2 FMC's. His list seems as unbalanced as mine, only I happen to have a very, very effective counter to his terminators in the form of my Raveners. Between 6 Raveners and 13 HGaunts, I killed 7 Terminators in the turn I charged. Imagine I was playing Dakkafexes + TFexes + Biovores + Flyrants with no Raveners, Mawlocs or Exocrines, would I want to do something like assault with Dakkafexes? Maybe Tarpit them with a TFex? Feed them Gaunts? Or, hold back plinking at them with Devourers?
Edit for clarity.
Item 1: I don't think that I would change the list much without compromising what you've intended. Your scoring is pitiful.
Item 2: I, typically when given the choice to VS or shoot both sets of devs at a vehicle, I'll shoot both weapons. That's because of the additional hits, but also because you don't have to worry about positioning AFTER the VS. I find, that if a VS is just within range, you're simultaneously opening your FMC up to lots of bad things to happen (bringing it closer in range to more units and thereby increasing the chance you'll be grounded).
Item 3: If the terminators just have LC, then just avoid them. I wouldn't suggest throwing ANY MCs in there to "tarpit" them. What will happen is you lose your MC and he's smiling because his large assault unit accomplished what he intended to use it for. Your best bet is to keep everything out of range (except maybe dakkafexen or the Tfex). Shoot them down. They are slow and can't do anything but run in the shooting phase.
I would suggest this strategy against a large unit of LC terminators: Shoot the **** out of them with TL-devs and when they start closing the gap entice him with a ridiculously improbable charge distance (like 10" or more) keep the dakkafexen or Tfex static at that charge distance. Then you get your shooting phase AND his assault phase to kill of his leading models thereby also increasing the chance that he'll fail the charge and give you another round to shoot them down.
They die like Teq. Pump them full of shots and they'll fail their saves.
If the vehicle is basically in the path of where I wanted to go with my movement anyway, I'll VS - that way I get the chance to engage two targets with my Flyrant instead of one.
If I have to change plans to VS it, I'll just move normally and dakka the hell out of it. As you noted the outcome will be similar, but you're not letting your opponent influence your movement.
I'm with roxor on the shooting...I'd also go for flanks...make sure that if they take the middle of the board...like termies love to do...that they get pulled in one direction or the other.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sidenote: This thread has been quite a journey and it's had it's ups and downs, but I'm very happy with the way it's gone overall. So, thanks to all of you.
tag8833 wrote: I had a game yesterday. It brought about a few Tactical questions.
Item 1:
My opponent was a player I hadn't played before, who I had the impression was a pretty good player. Our game wasn't representative of his skill because he had never faced tyranids before, and he conceded on turn 3, which brings me up to 5-0 with my 1500 pts raveners list and 2-0 with an 1850 varient, and I'm starting to think it might be more legit than I first anticipated. I fear the day that I run into a monolith or Land Raider, or the IG tank with the S8 or 9 large blast (Executioner?). Anyways, the list has produced a consistency that I hadn't expected, and I wonder if anyone has comments on running a list this unbalanced. Also, any suggestions for updating the list to handle AV:14 without compromising what it does.
Without changing much your list, try getting a few more Zoeys. They are the absolute bane of AV14. Only other thing that can hurt them reliably is MCs but most won't be able to get that close.
So maybe 2 squads of 2 Zoey or more if you can find the points. Could also try to just completly hide them from LOS until they can shot or outflank them....but it's a lot more risky.
Baneblades/Shadowswords/Monolith shenanigans/Much killer land raider variants (like the Ares)/That guy who brings in reaver Titans to regular 40k games under lords of war and promptly nukes your entire army off the board in one go..
My list is essentially stolen straight from that list. I ran your list a couple times, and then decided that Gargoyles were a good fit as a unit that can bubblewrap and tarpit things like great unclean ones or Mephiston. I really feel like a large squad of gargoyles is an upgrade to your list, because it can really help dictate who gets the charge. My beastpack ran into a beasts of Nurgle beastpack, and it was the gargoyles ability to tarpit the great unclean ones (Warp Speed + Iron Arm) that won me that game. In another game, I surrounded a drop pod Dreadnaught with Gargoyles to keep it from joining the assault between my Shrikes and the command squad.
The zoeys are a cheaper replacement for the Trygon Prime to get the list down to 1500. They tend to give up first blood, but are forgotten by turn 2. They also give me another couple psychic rolls.
The only other major change from you list was taking away the Devourers from the Shrikes. They aren't that useful, because you run the risk of killing yourself out of assault range, and you give up 1 attack in CC which can make a difference in combat resolution. Flesh Hooks have a shooting attack too, and they are a short enough range that they won't kill you out of assault range, but they can still provide overwatch, and the possibility of popping a transport so that you can get at the juicy meat inside.
roxor08 wrote: Item 1: I don't think that I would change the list much without compromising what you've intended. Your scoring is pitiful.
I agree. But I have never played a game to conclusion with the list. I've either tabled my opponents, or they've conceded. I use the Gargoyles as bubblewrap, so all of my Gaunts start the game with a 3+ cover save. By turn 2, any strategy of killing my troops is forgotten as my fast units are upon them. My favorite thing in the world is when my opponent advances toward me in dawn of war, and my raveners can move 12", assault 8-9" and then consolidate another 3-4" It usually happens with transports that I use my flyrants to pop, and then my raveners to kill the occupants, and use the assault to sling-shot into turn 3 assault range of the rest of my opponent's army.
Baneblades/Shadowswords/Monolith shenanigans/Much killer land raider variants (like the Ares)/That guy who brings in reaver Titans to regular 40k games under lords of war and promptly nukes your entire army off the board in one go..
LOW requires a LOW on your side to respond really.
Monolith has to get close for most of its shenanigans so a quick assault by an MC should put it down.
The killier Land Raider variants aren't that good overall. IMO the scariest is the Thunderfire cannon one - but that becomes a Flyrant target as even Zoeys are poorly designed to handle something with AV14 and a large range.
Baneblades/Shadowswords/Monolith shenanigans/Much killer land raider variants (like the Ares)/That guy who brings in reaver Titans to regular 40k games under lords of war and promptly nukes your entire army off the board in one go..
Also, I've got a few guys in my local meta that like to run 2 Land Raider Crusaders, and reserve most of their softer targets. It just gives me a lack of targets. Maybe I would fare ok in a non-kill point version of that game, but my instincts are telling me that would be a bad matchup.
Baneblades/Shadowswords/Monolith shenanigans/Much killer land raider variants (like the Ares)/That guy who brings in reaver Titans to regular 40k games under lords of war and promptly nukes your entire army off the board in one go..
LOW requires a LOW on your side to respond really.
Monolith has to get close for most of its shenanigans so a quick assault by an MC should put it down.
The killier Land Raider variants aren't that good overall. IMO the scariest is the Thunderfire cannon one - but that becomes a Flyrant target as even Zoeys are poorly designed to handle something with AV14 and a large range.
The Ares has; A demolisher cannon, twinlinked assault cannons, TL'd heavy flamers.
Enough to threaten most any unit in the army and clear away whole units at a time.
Also; Tyranid LOWs are god awful.
A Heirophant shows up; plinks away uselessly at a reaver, then gets killed in one turn by D-strength hits that eradicate everything that happened to be near the Heirophant too.
The Heirodule? Don't make me laugh, Lysander can beat it in assault.
rigeld2 wrote: Monolith has to get close for most of its shenanigans so a quick assault by an MC should put it down.
24" S8 AP:3 Large blast. It is going to massacre my Beasts / Shrikes. I only have 2 MC's in the list, and they have to stay flying to maintain survivability.
rigeld2 wrote: The killier Land Raider variants aren't that good overall. IMO the scariest is the Thunderfire cannon one - but that becomes a Flyrant target as even Zoeys are poorly designed to handle something with AV14 and a large range.
I run an endless swarm based list that can ignore land raiders and sit on objectives. This list doesn't have that benefit. Not enough troops.
Kain wrote: The Ares has; A demolisher cannon, twinlinked assault cannons, TL'd heavy flamers.
And no transport capacity and costs a huge amount, right?
How do you deal with Vindicator right now? This isn't much killier than one of those. (1 more AV on the face and some extra guns)
Also; Tyranid LOWs are god awful.
Harridans are decent - annoying because they fall out of the sky like Flyrants do, but not bad other than that.
Other than that - yeah, that's why I don't play Escalation games.
rigeld2 wrote: Monolith has to get close for most of its shenanigans so a quick assault by an MC should put it down.
24" S8 AP:3 Large blast. It is going to massacre my Beasts / Shrikes. I only have 2 MC's in the list, and they have to stay flying to maintain survivability.
It can only ever move 6" a turn. Keep your fast guys away from it.
Sacrificing a Flyrant (which isn't a guarantee - if you wreck it instead of explode it it's a huge LoS blocker) is sometimes worth it to get rid of a huge threat.
rigeld2 wrote: The killier Land Raider variants aren't that good overall. IMO the scariest is the Thunderfire cannon one - but that becomes a Flyrant target as even Zoeys are poorly designed to handle something with AV14 and a large range.
I run an endless swarm based list that can ignore land raiders and sit on objectives. This list doesn't have that benefit. Not enough troops.
I disagree - Some of my lists I only run 2 troops (gants and Tervigon) and I ignore Land Raiders all day.
A solo zoey has something like a 25% chance of blowing up a LR...it's excellent for it's points...
Two carnifexes are much more reliable...but then you have a conflict...a massive number of points...and probable contact with a unit inside designed to kill...tada...your carnifexes.
ductvader wrote: A solo zoey has something like a 25% chance of blowing up a LR...it's excellent for it's points...
Two carnifexes are much more reliable...but then you have a conflict...a massive number of points...and proble contact with a unit inside designed to kill...tada...your carnifexes.
]
That's all well and good but doesn't do anything to stop a Reaver from turn one nuking your army into ineffectiveness.
ductvader wrote: A solo zoey has something like a 25% chance of blowing up a LR...it's excellent for it's points...
Two carnifexes are much more reliable...but then you have a conflict...a massive number of points...and proble contact with a unit inside designed to kill...tada...your carnifexes.
]
That's all well and good but doesn't do anything to stop a Reaver from turn one nuking your army into ineffectiveness.
If you're facing a Reaver...you need a Void Shield Network or other tricks...I am talking about "standard 40k"
ductvader wrote: A solo zoey has something like a 25% chance of blowing up a LR...it's excellent for it's points...
Two carnifexes are much more reliable...but then you have a conflict...a massive number of points...and proble contact with a unit inside designed to kill...tada...your carnifexes.
]
That's all well and good but doesn't do anything to stop a Reaver from turn one nuking your army into ineffectiveness.
If you're facing a Reaver...you need a Void Shield Network or other tricks...I am talking about "standard 40k"
Escalation is standard 40k as per my group and network of vassal friends.
The thought is that if you can't deal with a maximum D-strength pieplate Reaver then tough, bend over and hope they use lube.
ductvader wrote: A solo zoey has something like a 25% chance of blowing up a LR...it's excellent for it's points...
More like 11%.
=33/36*4/6*5/6*4/6*2/6
=Chance to cast * chance to hit * chance they don't deny * chance to pen (glances are useless) * chance to explode (AP2)
edit: Add in 5+ cover (not too hard to get) and it's down to ~7%. That's awesome!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kain wrote: Escalation is standard 40k as per my group and network of vassal friends.
The thought is that if you can't deal with a maximum D-strength pieplate Reaver then tough, bend over and hope they use lube.
Then lots of VSR and a Harridan. Pretty much your only hope.
ductvader wrote: A solo zoey has something like a 25% chance of blowing up a LR...it's excellent for it's points...
Two carnifexes are much more reliable...but then you have a conflict...a massive number of points...and proble contact with a unit inside designed to kill...tada...your carnifexes.
]
That's all well and good but doesn't do anything to stop a Reaver from turn one nuking your army into ineffectiveness.
If you're facing a Reaver...you need a Void Shield Network or other tricks...I am talking about "standard 40k"
Escalation is standard 40k as per my group and network of vassal friends.
The thought is that if you can't deal with a maximum D-strength pieplate Reaver then tough, bend over and hope they use lube.
ductvader wrote: A solo zoey has something like a 25% chance of blowing up a LR...it's excellent for it's points...
Two carnifexes are much more reliable...but then you have a conflict...a massive number of points...and proble contact with a unit inside designed to kill...tada...your carnifexes.
]
That's all well and good but doesn't do anything to stop a Reaver from turn one nuking your army into ineffectiveness.
If you're facing a Reaver...you need a Void Shield Network or other tricks...I am talking about "standard 40k"
Escalation is standard 40k as per my group and network of vassal friends.
The thought is that if you can't deal with a maximum D-strength pieplate Reaver then tough, bend over and hope they use lube.
Then get new friends.
These are mostly friends I've had either since moving to South Africa, since serving in the Russian army, or even had since I was in primary school.
It's all in good fun.
By now we mostly play extensively homebrewed and houseruled 40k (to tb the point of being unrecognizable) but we still sometimes play something closer to the "normal" game.
ductvader wrote: A solo zoey has something like a 25% chance of blowing up a LR...it's excellent for it's points...
More like 11%.
=33/36*4/6*5/6*4/6*2/6
=Chance to cast * chance to hit * chance they don't deny * chance to pen (glances are useless) * chance to explode (AP2)
edit: Add in 5+ cover (not too hard to get) and it's down to ~7%. That's awesome!
This.
Also, the land raider lists I see, almost always have a librarian with a psychic hood or a Space Wolf psycher with a 24" 4+ deny. I've shot at least 30 times at land raiders with Zoeys, and have never taken a single hull point.
I have managed to use flyrants with warp lance a couple times to do some good. 1 Hull Point (shaken), 1 Immobilize, 1 Explodes out of probably about 12 tries. So it is pretty statistical.
The added success of the flyrant has much to do with mobility. I can usually get a clean shot without any sort of cover save. Unlike the Zoey who is so very, very slow, and my opponents know it and can get good cover saves. Give me Zoeys in a pod and they have a chance of popping a LR.
tag8833 wrote: I had a game yesterday. It brought about a few Tactical questions.
Item 1:
My opponent was a player I hadn't played before, who I had the impression was a pretty good player. Our game wasn't representative of his skill because he had never faced tyranids before, and he conceded on turn 3, which brings me up to 5-0 with my 1500 pts raveners list and 2-0 with an 1850 varient, and I'm starting to think it might be more legit than I first anticipated. I fear the day that I run into a monolith or Land Raider, or the IG tank with the S8 or 9 large blast (Executioner?). Anyways, the list has produced a consistency that I hadn't expected, and I wonder if anyone has comments on running a list this unbalanced. Also, any suggestions for updating the list to handle AV:14 without compromising what it does.
Item 2:
He had 2 land speeders (separate squads) that he moved up very aggressively. I was able to vector strike each with one flyrant on turn 1. I chose to vector strike because they had a 4+ Jink, and I thought it might be enough to kill them (one died). It essentially allowed me to shoot at 2 separate units. Which made it worth it, but I tried to run the math on Vector Strike vs 1 TL devourer on AV:10 vehicle with 4+ Jink, and it is about the same. Average vector Strike is 3 hits. Average TL Devourer is 5.33 hits, but I would lose 1/2 of them to the Jink. However, the greater number of hits from the devourer reduces the unlucky roll where I get a 1, 2, 2 to wound, but it adds a chance that he rolls really well on his saves. So, it seems a toss up to me, is there anyone who would make a case for one over the other being more reliable?
Item 3:
My opponent ran a giant squad of terminators with Lightening Claws. 10-12. At 1850 he adds a 2nd giant squad. We were both running "standard" lists, that we had prebuilt, and the only thing we knew about each others list, is that I warned him I was brining 2 FMC's. His list seems as unbalanced as mine, only I happen to have a very, very effective counter to his terminators in the form of my Raveners. Between 6 Raveners and 13 HGaunts, I killed 7 Terminators in the turn I charged. Imagine I was playing Dakkafexes + TFexes + Biovores + Flyrants with no Raveners, Mawlocs or Exocrines, would I want to do something like assault with Dakkafexes? Maybe Tarpit them with a TFex? Feed them Gaunts? Or, hold back plinking at them with Devourers?
Nice list, the "answer" for big blobs of terminators is, as always, Mawloc(s) S6 AP2 big template, do it again, now if you clear a spot the survivors can hammer you, but Mawlocs are tough, whats left might not be enough...
I agree that you're a little light on Troops, I'd have most likely ran fewer Gargoyles, Ravagers, Shrikes (say -5,-1,-1...) and purchased one more Troop...but if it works for ya...
I also prefer to run Zoeys in Broods of 2, but if you need the points elsewhere...
ductvader wrote: A solo zoey has something like a 25% chance of blowing up a LR...it's excellent for it's points...
More like 11%.
=33/36*4/6*5/6*4/6*2/6
=Chance to cast * chance to hit * chance they don't deny * chance to pen (glances are useless) * chance to explode (AP2)
edit: Add in 5+ cover (not too hard to get) and it's down to ~7%. That's awesome!
That's assuming a single Zoanthrope. There's no other option that is even close to be as good for only 50 pts.
The 11% is for a single Zoey, Get 2 or 3 and you get better odds.
As well as making the glances not useless. So one more chance in the penetration roll and one more chance in the penetration table roll.
I love my zoey and they repay my love by rolling awesomely. Maybe paint them in blue? =P
By now we mostly play extensively homebrewed and houseruled 40k (to tb the point of being unrecognizable) but we still sometimes play something closer to the "normal" game.
This isn't the sort of group that plays LOW but shuns dataslates is it?
Can you actually play a Reaver Titan? the escalation book doesn't have that guy in it.. the biggest bad guy in that book is the eldar titan.
A Flyrant with smash would be a good option for a Monolith, a LR as well if the troops inside it are squishy. Land Raiers have hardly any decent fire power for it's points though... kind of useless.
By now we mostly play extensively homebrewed and houseruled 40k (to tb the point of being unrecognizable) but we still sometimes play something closer to the "normal" game.
This isn't the sort of group that plays LOW but shuns dataslates is it?
Can you actually play a Reaver Titan? the escalation book doesn't have that guy in it.. the biggest bad guy in that book is the eldar titan.
A Flyrant with smash would be a good option for a Monolith, a LR as well if the troops inside it are squishy. Land Raiers have hardly any decent fire power for it's points though... kind of useless.
Oh no we use everything.
So gunlines often show up with the strongpoint with 3-9 aegis lines and 1-3 bastions.
Said gunline might be a Horus Heresy legion list trying to stop a Tau manta in a dual FOC 5k point game.
ductvader wrote: A solo zoey has something like a 25% chance of blowing up a LR...it's excellent for it's points...
More like 11%.
=33/36*4/6*5/6*4/6*2/6
=Chance to cast * chance to hit * chance they don't deny * chance to pen (glances are useless) * chance to explode (AP2)
edit: Add in 5+ cover (not too hard to get) and it's down to ~7%. That's awesome!
That's assuming a single Zoanthrope. There's no other option that is even close to be as good for only 50 pts.
The 11% is for a single Zoey, Get 2 or 3 and you get better odds.
As well as making the glances not useless. So one more chance in the penetration roll and one more chance in the penetration table roll.
I love my zoey and they repay my love by rolling awesomely. Maybe paint them in blue? =P
For 150 points you have a ~35% chance (without cover) to kill a Land Raider in one turn. At 18".
Wooooooooooooooo.... Also, 3 Zoeys is one of the worst uses of our elite slots right now. I'd much rather have a Dakkafex.
ductvader wrote: A solo zoey has something like a 25% chance of blowing up a LR...it's excellent for it's points...
More like 11%. =33/36*4/6*5/6*4/6*2/6 =Chance to cast * chance to hit * chance they don't deny * chance to pen (glances are useless) * chance to explode (AP2)
edit: Add in 5+ cover (not too hard to get) and it's down to ~7%. That's awesome!
That's assuming a single Zoanthrope. There's no other option that is even close to be as good for only 50 pts. The 11% is for a single Zoey, Get 2 or 3 and you get better odds. As well as making the glances not useless. So one more chance in the penetration roll and one more chance in the penetration table roll.
I love my zoey and they repay my love by rolling awesomely. Maybe paint them in blue? =P
For 150 points you have a ~35% chance (without cover) to kill a Land Raider in one turn. At 18". Wooooooooooooooo.... Also, 3 Zoeys is one of the worst uses of our elite slots right now. I'd much rather have a Dakkafex.
Chance to Blow up a Land Raider with Zoenthropes:
Chance that a brood of zoeys does nothing but make you roll dice and feel annoyed:
Since I almost never see a land Raider without Psychic Hood or Run Priest, zoey have very little chance to do much.
Tyran wrote: In all this time I only had to deal with a Land Raider once, and it died to 4 tentaclids lol.
I've been having a lot of trouble with my Crone and I'm starting to doubt it's value as a unit. As far as I've been playing it, it's a 24" move from the board edge on arrival, T5 Sv4+ FMC with a Grounding check. All of the games in my FLGS have ADLs with Quad Guns, and it seems like every. single. time. I move my Crone on the table from reserves, it hits the table, snags it's wounds from a Vector Strike, then dies at the end of movement. Three times in as many games against Aegis Defense Lines (no I'm not kidding), the Quad Gun has hit with everything, wounded with everything (thanks T5 *eyeroll*) and I've subsequently failed the Grounding check and it's dead and off table. 155 points for a maximum of 4 unsavable Wounds is just not worthwhile as it stands with *one* Crone.
So I'm debating including multiples, which is why I'm coming to this thread to seek outside advice, clues, maybe some things I haven't thought of yet.
For instance, last night - 1850 game versus Salamanders. List was Hive Tyrant, Tervigon (HQ), 3 Venomthrope, Tervigon(troop), 30 Termagant, 2 units of 3 Warriors with Stranglers, Crone (w/Stinger Salvo, always Stinger Salvo, it's SO good on a Crone), 3 Biovore, Exocrine, Mawloc, ADL w/Comms Relay.
Situation was - Crone came on from reserves turn 2. Decimated Melta marines who were on my left flank threatening my HQ Tervigon. Interceptor fire hits 4 times, Wounds 4 times. I roll a one on my grounding test.
Sorry about the wall of text here. This is just really frustrating the crap out of me and I'm looking for a solution.
rigeld2 wrote: Why are you Reserving a Crone? Start him on the board - no Interceptor.
Specifically interceptor isn't the point here. In either circumstance, be it Interceptor or Regular fire from a Quad, if the Quad must fire Interceptor it loses it's next shooting phase. If the Crone starts on the table and I go first, the Crone move forward, does nothing but fire a Tentaclid or two or Stinger Salvo, because any smart opponent (which most of my friends are) won't allow a Vector Strike turn 1 just by counter-deploying against it. Opponents turn, Quad Gun, 4 Wounds, Grounding check, dies. Next turn it can fire Interceptor on something that must come in from Reserves (read: Mawloc), my Flyrant (Warlord) or one of my other valuable TMCs. Given the choice between offering the option for Warlord and First Blood, offering up a lot of Wounds against one of my other TMCs or Reserving the Crone and allowing it to Vector Strike when it comes on the board, or have a superior position to at least use it's Drool Cannon, I'd much rather Reserve the Crone and deny the Quad Gun a round of shooting in my opponents next shooting phase.
rigeld2 wrote: Why are you Reserving a Crone? Start him on the board - no Interceptor.
Specifically interceptor isn't the point here. In either circumstance, be it Interceptor or Regular fire from a Quad, if the Quad must fire Interceptor it loses it's next shooting phase. If the Crone starts on the table and I go first, the Crone move forward, does nothing but fire a Tentaclid or two or Stinger Salvo, because any smart opponent (which most of my friends are) won't allow a Vector Strike turn 1 just by counter-deploying against it. Opponents turn, Quad Gun, 4 Wounds, Grounding check, dies. Next turn it can fire Interceptor on something that must come in from Reserves (read: Mawloc), my Flyrant (Warlord) or one of my other valuable TMCs. Given the choice between offering the option for Warlord and First Blood, offering up a lot of Wounds against one of my other TMCs or Reserving the Crone and allowing it to Vector Strike when it comes on the board, or have a superior position to at least use it's Drool Cannon, I'd much rather Reserve the Crone and deny the Quad Gun a round of shooting in my opponents next shooting phase.
rigeld2 wrote: Why are you Reserving a Crone? Start him on the board - no Interceptor.
Specifically interceptor isn't the point here. In either circumstance, be it Interceptor or Regular fire from a Quad, if the Quad must fire Interceptor it loses it's next shooting phase. If the Crone starts on the table and I go first, the Crone move forward, does nothing but fire a Tentaclid or two or Stinger Salvo, because any smart opponent (which most of my friends are) won't allow a Vector Strike turn 1 just by counter-deploying against it. Opponents turn, Quad Gun, 4 Wounds, Grounding check, dies. Next turn it can fire Interceptor on something that must come in from Reserves (read: Mawloc), my Flyrant (Warlord) or one of my other valuable TMCs. Given the choice between offering the option for Warlord and First Blood, offering up a lot of Wounds against one of my other TMCs or Reserving the Crone and allowing it to Vector Strike when it comes on the board, or have a superior position to at least use it's Drool Cannon, I'd much rather Reserve the Crone and deny the Quad Gun a round of shooting in my opponents next shooting phase.
Why is your Warlord in Reserves? O.o
I think part of your issue is that you're trickling threats onto the board. Start the Crone, Flyrant, everything (except maybe the 30 gants) on the board. The Crone should always have a "toe" (part of the base) in Area Terrain for the cover save - the Flyrant can get one from being obscured by other models (and gets his armor vs the Quad-Gun anyway).
TBH the Crone is kind of a trap to me - I prefer the Harpy with a significant margin, but I think you're just focusing on the Crone because it keeps performing poorly when in reality you don't have enough threats to force your opponent to make decisions.
But you should run 2 if you run any.
ductvader wrote: A solo zoey has something like a 25% chance of blowing up a LR...it's excellent for it's points...
More like 11%.
=33/36*4/6*5/6*4/6*2/6
=Chance to cast * chance to hit * chance they don't deny * chance to pen (glances are useless) * chance to explode (AP2)
edit: Add in 5+ cover (not too hard to get) and it's down to ~7%. That's awesome!
That's assuming a single Zoanthrope. There's no other option that is even close to be as good for only 50 pts.
The 11% is for a single Zoey, Get 2 or 3 and you get better odds.
As well as making the glances not useless. So one more chance in the penetration roll and one more chance in the penetration table roll.
I love my zoey and they repay my love by rolling awesomely. Maybe paint them in blue? =P
For 150 points you have a ~35% chance (without cover) to kill a Land Raider in one turn. At 18".
Wooooooooooooooo.... Also, 3 Zoeys is one of the worst uses of our elite slots right now. I'd much rather have a Dakkafex.
A Dakkafex is not an Elite choice. I admit to being very fond of Zoey(s) what is a better use of an Elite slot?
Two solo venomthropes...now you're done with your elite slots...unless you're trying to hide a single zoey for synapse (which I am not a fan of / just run 3 warriors with a strangler)
ductvader wrote: A solo zoey has something like a 25% chance of blowing up a LR...it's excellent for it's points...
More like 11%.
=33/36*4/6*5/6*4/6*2/6
=Chance to cast * chance to hit * chance they don't deny * chance to pen (glances are useless) * chance to explode (AP2)
edit: Add in 5+ cover (not too hard to get) and it's down to ~7%. That's awesome!
That's assuming a single Zoanthrope. There's no other option that is even close to be as good for only 50 pts.
The 11% is for a single Zoey, Get 2 or 3 and you get better odds.
As well as making the glances not useless. So one more chance in the penetration roll and one more chance in the penetration table roll.
I love my zoey and they repay my love by rolling awesomely. Maybe paint them in blue? =P
For 150 points you have a ~35% chance (without cover) to kill a Land Raider in one turn. At 18".
Wooooooooooooooo.... Also, 3 Zoeys is one of the worst uses of our elite slots right now. I'd much rather have a Dakkafex.
Chance to Blow up a Land Raider with Zoenthropes:
Chance that a brood of zoeys does nothing but make you roll dice and feel annoyed:
Since I almost never see a land Raider without Psychic Hood or Run Priest, zoey have very little chance to do much.
Edit to correct the 4+ Cover results
I'm not sure I understand the comparison...Zoeys give durable Synapse, and Powers of the Hive Mind!. Any shots with Warp Blast are gravy.
To my mind its like saying that a super model is a bad cook. Sure it may be true, but what is the point?
True dat, many if not most Tyranids follow this rule: More is better! 3 may be too many, but 2 is almost always notably better than 1.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ductvader wrote: Two solo venomthropes...now you're done with your elite slots...unless you're trying to hide a single zoey for synapse (which I am not a fan of / just run 3 warriors with a strangler)
That's workable....But ...that can be a gift wrapped "First Blood". I don't think its good to say something is a bad use of the slot, when what you want to say is "Don't use Elite slots, 'cause they're "not good" ".
They may be bad buys for your style and Meta. But that does not make them "bad" in all cases.
Late entry: 3 Warriors with a Cannon costs at minimum twice as much as a Zoey
Tyran wrote: In all this time I only had to deal with a Land Raider once, and it died to 4 tentaclids lol.
I've been having a lot of trouble with my Crone and I'm starting to doubt it's value as a unit. As far as I've been playing it, it's a 24" move from the board edge on arrival, T5 Sv4+ FMC with a Grounding check. All of the games in my FLGS have ADLs with Quad Guns, and it seems like every. single. time. I move my Crone on the table from reserves, it hits the table, snags it's wounds from a Vector Strike, then dies at the end of movement. Three times in as many games against Aegis Defense Lines (no I'm not kidding), the Quad Gun has hit with everything, wounded with everything (thanks T5 *eyeroll*) and I've subsequently failed the Grounding check and it's dead and off table. 155 points for a maximum of 4 unsavable Wounds is just not worthwhile as it stands with *one* Crone.
So I'm debating including multiples, which is why I'm coming to this thread to seek outside advice, clues, maybe some things I haven't thought of yet.
For instance, last night - 1850 game versus Salamanders. List was Hive Tyrant, Tervigon (HQ), 3 Venomthrope, Tervigon(troop), 30 Termagant, 2 units of 3 Warriors with Stranglers, Crone (w/Stinger Salvo, always Stinger Salvo, it's SO good on a Crone), 3 Biovore, Exocrine, Mawloc, ADL w/Comms Relay.
Situation was - Crone came on from reserves turn 2. Decimated Melta marines who were on my left flank threatening my HQ Tervigon. Interceptor fire hits 4 times, Wounds 4 times. I roll a one on my grounding test.
Sorry about the wall of text here. This is just really frustrating the crap out of me and I'm looking for a solution.
Here are a few things you can do to help mitigate this situation.
1. Bastion (w/comms if you'd like).
2. Venomthrope in or behind the bastion.
3. Hive Crone touching terrain near bastion (or behind) for a 3+ (2+ behind) cover.
4. Don't reserve your crone if you've got any of the above.
4. If he's firing at your hive crone, then he isn't firing at your flyrants. Win!
BTW, I am currently running only 1 hive crone and this is how I keep him alive.
Here are a few things you can do to help mitigate this situation.
1. Bastion (w/comms if you'd like).
2. Venomthrope in or behind the bastion.
3. Hive Crone touching terrain near bastion (or behind) for a 3+ (2+ behind) cover.
4. Don't reserve your crone if you've got any of the above.
4. If he's firing at your hive crone, then he isn't firing at your flyrants. Win!
Curious - in regards to the "toe-touching" comment from before. Am I to understand that if the base of my Crone is touching area terrain, it gets a Cover Save from it? Can anyone confirm and please clarify? (I beg of you) Specific sources would help me out tremendously.
Sorry - wanted to add - I've been lead to believe that when dealing with Cover Saves with Flyers, True Line Of Sight matters and if the body is partially blocked, you get a Cover Save.
pinecone77 wrote: A Dakkafex is not an Elite choice. I admit to being very fond of Zoey(s) what is a better use of an Elite slot?
I meant as far as points.
For Elite slots - Venomthropes or a single Zoey. Multiple in a brood isn't efficient.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pinecone77 wrote: I'm not sure I understand the comparison...Zoeys give durable Synapse, and Powers of the Hive Mind!. Any shots with Warp Blast are gravy.
To my mind its like saying that a super model is a bad cook. Sure it may be true, but what is the point?
Zoeys were touted as being a great answer to AV14. Those numbers prove that if that's our "great answer" outside of CC, we don't really have an answer.
pinecone77 wrote: I'm not sure I understand the comparison...Zoeys give durable Synapse, and Powers of the Hive Mind!. Any shots with Warp Blast are gravy.
To my mind its like saying that a super model is a bad cook. Sure it may be true, but what is the point?
Zoeys were touted as being a great answer to AV14. Those numbers prove that if that's our "great answer" outside of CC, we don't really have an answer.
Rupture Cannon? Stab in the dark...haha
Tentaclids are pretty much it unless you happen to be running Haywire HG...
So I'm thinking of running this lost for Lolz at a local club tournament ran over 5 weeks. It's not a super competitive group of players so I think it willbe interesting to see what it can do.
Primary Detachment
Tyranid Prime
Deathspitter, Lash Whip and Bonesword.
10 x Termagants
10 x Termagants
Skyblight Formation
Flyrant, 2 x Twin Linked Devourers
Hive Crone
Harpy
Harpy
15 x Gargoyles
15 x Gargoyles
15 x Gargoyles
Subterranean Swarm
Trygon Prime
Trygon
Mawloc
3 x Ravenors Rending Claws
3 x Ravenors Rending Claws
3 x Ravenors Rending Claws
pinecone77 wrote: I'm not sure I understand the comparison...Zoeys give durable Synapse, and Powers of the Hive Mind!. Any shots with Warp Blast are gravy.
To my mind its like saying that a super model is a bad cook. Sure it may be true, but what is the point?
Zoeys were touted as being a great answer to AV14. Those numbers prove that if that's our "great answer" outside of CC, we don't really have an answer.
Rupture Cannon? Stab in the dark...haha
Tentaclids are pretty much it unless you happen to be running Haywire HG...
Nobody is recommending either.
Yeah, Smash in CC is pretty much it. Though a Tyranofex with Adrenals, and Electrobugs can put a scare in any vehicle. (...mostly from CC )
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldercaveman wrote: So I'm thinking of running this lost for Lolz at a local club tournament ran over 5 weeks. It's not a super competitive group of players so I think it willbe interesting to see what it can do.
Primary Detachment
Tyranid Prime
Deathspitter, Lash Whip and Bonesword.
10 x Termagants
10 x Termagants
Skyblight Formation
Flyrant, 2 x Twin Linked Devourers
Hive Crone
Harpy
Harpy
15 x Gargoyles
15 x Gargoyles
15 x Gargoyles
Subterranean Swarm
Trygon Prime
Trygon
Mawloc
3 x Ravenors Rending Claws
3 x Ravenors Rending Claws
3 x Ravenors Rending Claws
Very nice! Though it is terribly vulnrable to Synapse Hunting....avoid that, and I think you'll have fun 2000 points.
pinecone77 wrote: A Dakkafex is not an Elite choice. I admit to being very fond of Zoey(s) what is a better use of an Elite slot?
I meant as far as points.
For Elite slots - Venomthropes or a single Zoey. Multiple in a brood isn't efficient.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pinecone77 wrote: I'm not sure I understand the comparison...Zoeys give durable Synapse, and Powers of the Hive Mind!. Any shots with Warp Blast are gravy.
To my mind its like saying that a super model is a bad cook. Sure it may be true, but what is the point?
Zoeys were touted as being a great answer to AV14. Those numbers prove that if that's our "great answer" outside of CC, we don't really have an answer.
Ah, gotcha. Well I guess "An answer" is better than "No answer" ....So that means Zoey is the Best?
Eldercaveman wrote: So I'm thinking of running this lost for Lolz at a local club tournament ran over 5 weeks. It's not a super competitive group of players so I think it willbe interesting to see what it can do.
Primary Detachment
Tyranid Prime
Deathspitter, Lash Whip and Bonesword.
10 x Termagants
10 x Termagants
Skyblight Formation
Flyrant, 2 x Twin Linked Devourers
Hive Crone
Harpy
Harpy
15 x Gargoyles
15 x Gargoyles
15 x Gargoyles
Subterranean Swarm
Trygon Prime
Trygon
Mawloc
3 x Ravenors Rending Claws
3 x Ravenors Rending Claws
3 x Ravenors Rending Claws
2000 points.
If your local meta is only casual, I wouldn't even run the Skyblight Formation. It'll smash most casual lists. It'll be akin to taking the seer council, beaststar, ovesa-star or Necron wraithwing flyer-spam to a casual event.
Looking at the list of tag8833, he only have two MCs, the flyrants and i think they can only smash in assault, so when not swooping? And since he's already got 2 elite slots taken by 1 zoey, getting more isn't a waste of slots.
One of the worst elite choice? I think Pyro and Lictor would be first. Possibly even Hive Guard. Harupex....i have no idea, never tried it. Warriors are costy and easier to kill then Zoanthropes. I've lost 3 warriors in one blast.... when someone wants to kill my Zoey, they've usde a lot more then the 50-150 pts so far.
I'm curious about the chances for an MC to beat AV 14? Everyone except carnifexes need to Smash, so only half the attacks and they need at least 4 to glance, 5+ to pen. Not sure the math is that advantageous compared to zoey, specialy since they cost a lot more pts and need to get in CC. Anyone good in math want to check? =P
Addaran wrote: Looking at the list of tag8833, he only have two MCs, the flyrants and i think they can only smash in assault, so when not swooping? And since he's already got 2 elite slots taken by 1 zoey, getting more isn't a waste of slots.
One of the worst elite choice? I think Pyro and Lictor would be first. Possibly even Hive Guard. Harupex....i have no idea, never tried it. Warriors are costy and easier to kill then Zoanthropes. I've lost 3 warriors in one blast.... when someone wants to kill my Zoey, they've usde a lot more then the 50-150 pts so far.
I'm curious about the chances for an MC to beat AV 14? Everyone except carnifexes need to Smash, so only half the attacks and they need at least 4 to glance, 5+ to pen. Not sure the math is that advantageous compared to zoey, specialy since they cost a lot more pts and need to get in CC. Anyone good in math want to check? =P
But they reroll failed penetration rolls and hit with at least a 3+.
Addaran wrote: Looking at the list of tag8833, he only have two MCs, the flyrants and i think they can only smash in assault, so when not swooping? And since he's already got 2 elite slots taken by 1 zoey, getting more isn't a waste of slots.
One of the worst elite choice? I think Pyro and Lictor would be first. Possibly even Hive Guard. Harupex....i have no idea, never tried it. Warriors are costy and easier to kill then Zoanthropes. I've lost 3 warriors in one blast.... when someone wants to kill my Zoey, they've usde a lot more then the 50-150 pts so far.
I'm curious about the chances for an MC to beat AV 14? Everyone except carnifexes need to Smash, so only half the attacks and they need at least 4 to glance, 5+ to pen. Not sure the math is that advantageous compared to zoey, specialy since they cost a lot more pts and need to get in CC. Anyone good in math want to check? =P
3 Zoey VS. MC in CC smashing. Chance to pop a Land Raider.
I'm assuming there is no cover from the zoeys and no Deny bonus. Also assuming that the MC is charging and smashing, and that the vehicle has moved.
Addaran wrote: Looking at the list of tag8833, he only have two MCs, the flyrants and i think they can only smash in assault, so when not swooping? And since he's already got 2 elite slots taken by 1 zoey, getting more isn't a waste of slots.
One of the worst elite choice? I think Pyro and Lictor would be first. Possibly even Hive Guard. Harupex....i have no idea, never tried it. Warriors are costy and easier to kill then Zoanthropes. I've lost 3 warriors in one blast.... when someone wants to kill my Zoey, they've usde a lot more then the 50-150 pts so far.
I'm curious about the chances for an MC to beat AV 14? Everyone except carnifexes need to Smash, so only half the attacks and they need at least 4 to glance, 5+ to pen. Not sure the math is that advantageous compared to zoey, specialy since they cost a lot more pts and need to get in CC. Anyone good in math want to check? =P
3 Zoey VS. MC in CC smashing.
I'm assuming there is no cover from the zoeys and no Deny bonus. Also assuming that the MC is charging and smashing, and that the vehicle has moved.
Ugh! My percentages don't add up. Someone check my work.
Chance to take a hull point without exploding for an MC with 5-6 attacks = (4 (# smash attacks) * 2/3 (to hit if vehicle moved) * 1/6 (Glance not pen)) + (4 (# smash attacks) * 2/3 (to hit if vehicle moved) * 2/6 (pen not glance) * 4/6 (No explode result)) = 104% = Not possible. What did I do wrong?
You forgot the re-rolls. Also a percentage multiplied by 4 can give more than 100%
Tyran wrote: You forgot the re-rolls. Also a percentage multiplied by 4 can give more than 100%
Yes to the re-rolls.
Yes to multiplying something by 4 being more than 100%, but that doesn't mean more than 100% is possible. I think I can't really directly compute that middle number, and need to compute the chance of explodes, and the chance of doing nothing and subtract to get the correct chance of doing 1 or more hull points without exploding. I'm updating my table
Eldercaveman wrote: So I'm thinking of running this lost for Lolz at a local club tournament ran over 5 weeks. It's not a super competitive group of players so I think it willbe interesting to see what it can do.
Primary Detachment
Tyranid Prime
Deathspitter, Lash Whip and Bonesword.
10 x Termagants
10 x Termagants
Skyblight Formation
Flyrant, 2 x Twin Linked Devourers
Hive Crone
Harpy
Harpy
15 x Gargoyles
15 x Gargoyles
15 x Gargoyles
Subterranean Swarm
Trygon Prime
Trygon
Mawloc
3 x Ravenors Rending Claws
3 x Ravenors Rending Claws
3 x Ravenors Rending Claws
2000 points.
If your local meta is only casual, I wouldn't even run the Skyblight Formation. It'll smash most casual lists. It'll be akin to taking the seer council, beaststar, ovesa-star or Necron wraithwing flyer-spam to a casual event.
It's one if them things where the club is meant to be a casually veterans club where everything gets a long and nobody brings cheese, but some of the lists coming out already are just stupid, because we have a few people who just believe what the internet says, so they are all writing me off for bringing Nids. So I want to give them A) a list that is completely left wing and B) still pretty nasty.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What I might do is shave some points and swap the Prime for Deathleaper.
Eldercaveman wrote: So I'm thinking of running this lost for Lolz at a local club tournament ran over 5 weeks. It's not a super competitive group of players so I think it willbe interesting to see what it can do.
Primary Detachment
Tyranid Prime
Deathspitter, Lash Whip and Bonesword.
10 x Termagants
10 x Termagants
Skyblight Formation
Flyrant, 2 x Twin Linked Devourers
Hive Crone
Harpy
Harpy
15 x Gargoyles
15 x Gargoyles
15 x Gargoyles
Subterranean Swarm
Trygon Prime
Trygon
Mawloc
3 x Ravenors Rending Claws
3 x Ravenors Rending Claws
3 x Ravenors Rending Claws
2000 points.
If your local meta is only casual, I wouldn't even run the Skyblight Formation. It'll smash most casual lists. It'll be akin to taking the seer council, beaststar, ovesa-star or Necron wraithwing flyer-spam to a casual event.
It's one if them things where the club is meant to be a casually veterans club where everything gets a long and nobody brings cheese, but some of the lists coming out already are just stupid, because we have a few people who just believe what the internet says, so they are all writing me off for bringing Nids. So I want to give them A) a list that is completely left wing and B) still pretty nasty.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What I might do is shave some points and swap the Prime for Deathleaper.
Keep the Prime. You are light on Synapse. You lose your flyrant or Trygon Prime and then you won't be able to control your army. You need a character you can hide in a large squad to provide backfield synapse.
Also, my last suggestion is that you should try to find the points to fit in a bastion and a venomthrope. Junk one of the formations if you have to. Without a proper "foundation" for your army, you can potentially get alpha-struck pretty hard by certain armies (here's looking at you, Tau, Eldar and DE).
Addaran wrote: Looking at the list of tag8833, he only have two MCs, the flyrants and i think they can only smash in assault, so when not swooping? And since he's already got 2 elite slots taken by 1 zoey, getting more isn't a waste of slots.
One of the worst elite choice? I think Pyro and Lictor would be first. Possibly even Hive Guard. Harupex....i have no idea, never tried it. Warriors are costy and easier to kill then Zoanthropes. I've lost 3 warriors in one blast.... when someone wants to kill my Zoey, they've usde a lot more then the 50-150 pts so far.
I'm curious about the chances for an MC to beat AV 14? Everyone except carnifexes need to Smash, so only half the attacks and they need at least 4 to glance, 5+ to pen. Not sure the math is that advantageous compared to zoey, specialy since they cost a lot more pts and need to get in CC. Anyone good in math want to check? =P
3 Zoey VS. MC in CC smashing. Chance to pop a Land Raider.
I'm assuming there is no cover from the zoeys and no Deny bonus. Also assuming that the MC is charging and smashing, and that the vehicle has moved.
Edited to correct bad math.
Thanks. =D
I don't think the odds are that bad, specialy when you factor in the cost and distance. MCs win obviously if they get to CC, but it's been pretty rare for me. (Even saw a picket line of space marine blocking me from the tank )
So, remember how way back, I said I was thinking about how to best use a pyrovore? How does max Pyrovores with max Tyrannofexes with flame templates sound?
Unyielding Hunger wrote: So, remember how way back, I said I was thinking about how to best use a pyrovore? How does max Pyrovores with max Tyrannofexes with flame templates sound?
Unyielding Hunger wrote: So, remember how way back, I said I was thinking about how to best use a pyrovore? How does max Pyrovores with max Tyrannofexes with flame templates sound?
Sounds like slow fragile units with low damage output being shown up by Tyrannofexes.
Unyielding Hunger wrote: So, remember how way back, I said I was thinking about how to best use a pyrovore? How does max Pyrovores with max Tyrannofexes with flame templates sound?
Like you're wasting your Elite choices. Be it Venomthropes for cover saves, Zoeys for further Synapse coverage and psychic shenanigans, Lictors for Mawloc lock ons or Hive Guard for firepower there are always better choices than Pyrovores.
Disclaimer: If you can, never pick Lictors within your normal force org chart. Seriously, Assassin Brood those babies. Yeah, it's steep but you get maximum lictors and a HQ outside of normal force Org. Deathleaper is also oddly useful against a lot of things too but not useful enough to eat a slot over a Hive Tyrant.
rigeld2 wrote: ... So kill the marines? They're the tastier target anyway, and if the combat lasts more than your turn you can't be shot at.
Win/win.
That's what i did in the shooting phase, then i was sitting duck and died by terminator charge. Would have prefered to move further away and if i killed the tank, next i could have taken a shot at his Warlord. Much tastier. =P
Mostly, i was just pointing out how easy it is to deny the charge to an enemy.
rigeld2 wrote: Yeah, don't shoot to kill them, punch them :-)
Pretty much how Tyranids have always been - we don't deal with vehicles at range unless it's to give them glancing Hull Point hell within our 18 inch murderfield. If it's anything bigger than AV12 the best approach is generally to go in and punch it simply because our S9/S10 firepower has too much against it (Zoeys have to jump through too many hoops for Warp Lance and T-fex rupture cannons are costly still and only BS 3).
Ok, back from diverting myself.
Back to the 1800 point tournament. Formations were told no, but in return the TOs did state Tyranids could ally with themselves (huzzah!). This is mainly after I pointed out where every other army could ally with something Tyranids got formations - so they evened that up for the sake of fairness (because to be fair I'm expecting to see Taudar, Deldar and anything Inquisition cropping up with 3 HQs).
So the 1800 point list is now as follows...
*****
Main Force Org
Flyrant - 2 x Devourers, Electroshock Grubs
Flyrant - 2 x Devourers, Electroshock Grubs
Ideas here. Advance with wall of firepower carnifexes and Flyrants, scooting the gaunts up to objectives as I go. Use the melee Flyrant aggressively as an assassin along with the crones, bullying small squads with Vector Strikes or straight up assassinations on characters. The idea is the big monsters are aggressive, the gaunts are to be ignored.
[edit] Whoops, electrogrubs are cheaper than I remember. As I was.
However, if you're using zoey for tank killing, 2 individuals is a low chance of killing high armor with deny the witch. Might think about grouping them.
If you're going for synapse and you're allying yourself, go for broke and get a Prime with Miasma Cannon instead of those two or you might think about a Malanthrope if you have cash money.
I'm gonna hit on three fronts here as well.
-I still personally love and always play heavy Biovore. They're just very solid against pretty much anything on the board, even MEQ's start seeing wounds after multiple barrages.. I just have a unit of warriors with a strangler babysit them and snipe with a strangler. Added with that, I run the cross tactic of Deathleaper and/or Broodlords tanking hostile leadership and seeing failed pinning tests due to barrage, and then a wholesale slaughter by charging into combat. I like the tactic. I'm still hammering out the details on my army list though. Couple crones, a flyrant, and I like the Prime with Miasma Cannon and "Look out sir" shenanigans in a group of 'Fexes stomping up the board.
-What on Earth is the point of the Exocrine vs the T-fex? It's stat line is practically the same. Are we talking "We (GW) need money so we'll remake an old unit with new rules and sell it for 80(cue evil laugh)"? It's in the same slot on the FOC, and serves an identical purpose. Or am I missing something?
-Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the Tervigon/Tfex kit. It is an amazing looking kit. However, is it just me or does it just NOT look like EITHER of those things? Like the birthing pod was a last minute addition? And the weapons he holds just don't exude an aura of Assault 20, or a 48" Str 10 monstrosity? With that in mind, I'm doing conversions for the Tervigon from the fantasy Giant Spider bodies. So I got that covered. As for the T-fex I would just magnetize and use the Exocrine kit if I could get away with it in tournaments, but I may just have to figure something out, any suggestions?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and as a note. In 5th, I loved zoeys. Now, not so much. Deny the witch and no pods is rough. I'm finding myself using other elites more often, and Impaler Cannons ignoring cover is much more relevant than you'd think.
captnobvious wrote: -What on Earth is the point of the Exocrine vs the T-fex? It's stat line is practically the same. Are we talking "We (GW) need money so we'll remake an old unit with new rules and sell it for 80(cue evil laugh)"? It's in the same slot on the FOC, and serves an identical purpose. Or am I missing something?
You are, they fill very different roles. One is a super-durable MC that uses templates to clear out light infantry, the other is less durable and uses plasma to take out heavy infantry and MCs.
I understand the point of the variance in weapon, yes. However couldn't they have just made the Exocrine's gun a piece of wargear for the T-fex and achieved the same effect?
Take your pick:
- They didn't want a weapon that powerful on a 2+ save MC after seeing what Riptides could do
- The model cast was already done before any thought went into the rules
- New kits sell
- Cruddace
Just out of curiosity, how many people are actually paying with the skyblight swarm? I mean, actually using it? It's pretty good, but it seems to be referred to in the theoretical more than in the practical. I have used it once with proxies, just to test it out, but haven't since.
I'll run it tomorrow @1500 points and come back with a play by play. In my solo test games it's pretty overwhelming.
Any game where you can spam 9-12 scoring units will give you a pretty strong edge. That's tyranids secret strength, even without formations, is massed scoring units.
I'm finding the fex's are pretty awesome as a distraction charging into the enemy lines.
The Mawloc makes the enemy rethink deployment - If they don't then the Loc obviously can be deadly.
I use the Flyrants more as support units taking out units on the flanks, never putting them in immediate danger and using them to contest late game.
I'm finding Nids work quite nicely in smaller point games.
It's when I try to create a list on the 1750+ side that I tend to struggle filling out the points creating a list I feel is competitive. This is without the Skyblight formation though as a lot of tournaments still aren't allowing formations in my local area.
I'm finding the fex's are pretty awesome as a distraction charging into the enemy lines.
The Mawloc makes the enemy rethink deployment - If they don't then the Loc obviously can be deadly.
I use the Flyrants more as support units taking out units on the flanks, never putting them in immediate danger and using them to contest late game.
I'm finding Nids work quite nicely in smaller point games.
It's when I try to create a list on the 1750+ side that I tend to struggle filling out the points creating a list I feel is competitive. This is without the Skyblight formation though as a lot of tournaments still aren't allowing formations in my local area.
Pretty excited, just ordered my Heirophant for my birthday coming up.
I think we'll definitely get another Wraithknight to keep things fair, but at 1000pts I think we can play big games pretty balanced. I'm just excited for our first massive game that isnt apocalypse.
The transport upgrade is very good. I used that upgrade last night with 'stealers and a broodlord, being able to cover a huge amount of the table then assault the 'stealers straight out of the Biotitan was awesome, multi charged several units and ate the lot. Does make me sad though that we don't have a cheaper transport option than the harridan.
The transport upgrade is very good. I used that upgrade last night with 'stealers and a broodlord, being able to cover a huge amount of the table then assault the 'stealers straight out of the Biotitan was awesome, multi charged several units and ate the lot. Does make me sad though that we don't have a cheaper transport option than the harridan.
Hmm, yup. I just pulled it up and looked at it - you get one of the listed upgrades. Still, they're all very good and a Hierophant alone is going to be an insurmountable challenge for most armies. However, eldar still have the Bladestorm and Monofilament rules on their side, as well as distort weaponry to chip it down better than most armies.
Eldar was what I faced last night, took three full turns of him shooting everything he had bar the Revenant (stuck in reserves) at the Biotitan before he took it down. Brought the rest of my army enough time to get in range, cripple or kill anything of value. Bladestorm was a pain but it was the amazing amount of stuff that was AP2 that did for my Biotitan in the end. She only took down about half her points but it was enough especially as it got me first blood. Getting the 'Stealers to his back line was much more valuable as I got his warlord, line breaker and cleared off the back line objective of his scoring units.
Doing it again I'd have two or three venomthropes in close attendance to supplement the cover save.
I didn't, couldn't get 'fexes near enough despite having three groups of two spread out on the board. It didn't show till turn four so it only took out 1/3rd of my army.
If it had shown up while the Biotitan was still alive my prefered plan was trapping it with the Biotitan and the 'fexes, once the Biotitan died I was going to ignore it and destroy his scoring units, not enough ranged fire power to counter the Save and that amount of HP.
He had one unit of Wraithguard left that I had tied up with Gargoyles from the Skyblight formation.
He started with three 10 man avenger units, 9 man jet bike unit, two 5 man Wraithguard, one unit of Rangers, oh and I also removed two units of Fire Dragons and a big unit of Scorpions. Plus an assortment of Farseers, Spiritseers and Eldrad.
tetrisphreak wrote: So out of curiosity, how did you handle the Revenant titan when it finally arrived?
Toxin gants...that's how I handle most things.
Toxin gants... that can't charge it because it's a vehicle?
Well walkers can "be charged like infantry" as per the brb so technically you can. I just don't know how that actually worked as a tarpit since the Titan would stomp them all away.
Also how do you catch a unit that moves 36" per turn with a t3 unit that moves 6" per turn....I are confused.
tetrisphreak wrote: So out of curiosity, how did you handle the Revenant titan when it finally arrived?
Toxin gants...that's how I handle most things.
Toxin gants... that can't charge it because it's a vehicle?
Well walkers can "be charged like infantry" as per the brb so technically you can. I just don't know how that actually worked as a tarpit since the Titan would stomp them all away.
That doesn't change the fact that you can't charge a vehicle you can't hurt.
And Stomp is cool, but a 30 man unit getting helped out by Tervigons making new ones can tarpit for a while.
Also how do you catch a unit that moves 36" per turn with a t3 unit that moves 6" per turn....I are confused.
tetrisphreak wrote: So out of curiosity, how did you handle the Revenant titan when it finally arrived?
Toxin gants...that's how I handle most things.
Toxin gants... that can't charge it because it's a vehicle?
Well walkers can "be charged like infantry" as per the brb so technically you can. I just don't know how that actually worked as a tarpit since the Titan would stomp them all away.
Also how do you catch a unit that moves 36" per turn with a t3 unit that moves 6" per turn....I are confused.
Unfortunately the rules that say you can't assault a vehicle a you can't hurt are more advanced then the rules for assaulting like infantry.
I too am curious how one catches a 36" move unit with Termagants.
BTW, it might not be pure RAW, but most of the larger tournaments, including the LVO, BAO, Adepticon and Nova have or will have it in the FAQ's that yes, you can charge a walker that you can't hurt.
tetrisphreak wrote: So out of curiosity, how did you handle the Revenant titan when it finally arrived?
Toxin gants...that's how I handle most things.
Toxin gants... that can't charge it because it's a vehicle?
Well walkers can "be charged like infantry" as per the brb so technically you can. I just don't know how that actually worked as a tarpit since the Titan would stomp them all away.
Also how do you catch a unit that moves 36" per turn with a t3 unit that moves 6" per turn....I are confused.
Unfortunately the rules that say you can't assault a vehicle a you can't hurt are more advanced then the rules for assaulting like infantry.
I too am curious how one catches a 36" move unit with Termagants.
Take 300 of them.
Edit: 220ish...I don't quite have 300 termagants. But I have another 220ish hormagaunts.
I'm finding the fex's are pretty awesome as a distraction charging into the enemy lines.
The Mawloc makes the enemy rethink deployment - If they don't then the Loc obviously can be deadly.
I use the Flyrants more as support units taking out units on the flanks, never putting them in immediate danger and using them to contest late game.
I'm finding Nids work quite nicely in smaller point games.
It's when I try to create a list on the 1750+ side that I tend to struggle filling out the points creating a list I feel is competitive. This is without the Skyblight formation though as a lot of tournaments still aren't allowing formations in my local area.
I like the cut of your jib sir I would be nervous about the terv pooping out to soon, but thats the way it goes... I really don't see any serious issues at all. I agree that Winged Tyrants do much better when used conservativly. Good luck, and good hunting!
Heavy
-Biovore (x3)
-Biovore (x3)
-Carnifex - TLDevs
Running like this with no slates.
With slates I'd cut the Zoey Brood, put in an Exocrine to get Living Artillery and trim somewhere (probably a couple of Biovores) for another synapse.
I like Broodlords with Barrage. Pinning is useful on most armies. I'd run deathleaper assassin if I thought I could consistently have more scoring floating around, as it is points are already stretched.
Terv + gaunts is still probably the most efficient way to capture points, despite the increase. And it does just that, provides backfield synapse as well as chaff to either screen or tarpit. Plus 6 T6 wounds is rough to push through without tunneling the thing down.
It's less that it causes pain, but is a really tactical piece.
How many warriors unit's could I get for a Tervigon's price though? they would be able to at least shoot targets far away and are still fairly mean in cc if given the right equipment.
I havent played the tervigon at all so im not sure but on paper it seems like allot of points for not much?
bodazoka wrote: How many warriors unit's could I get for a Tervigon's price though? they would be able to at least shoot targets far away and are still fairly mean in cc if given the right equipment.
I havent played the tervigon at all so im not sure but on paper it seems like allot of points for not much?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Plus being able to generate a potential 76 Gants (in a 5 turn game) per tervigon is much more exciting than a pair of barbed stranglers.
And if we're arming them, thorax swarms are baller. Shreddershard those TEQ's.
And it's a scoring MC. Just waddle it's fat behind up to a point in the last 2 turns, and you're golden.
If they had specializing gear, I'd agree. Give them something with skyfire/flamer/ T5 or make them cheaper and I'd start fielding them as primary troops. As it stands the main reason to take them is due to the fact they're probably the most efficient synapse. 100 points for a squad with a strangler.
100 Points for a group of 3 with a strangler
124 For 4 stealers and a Broodlord
315 for a gant brood + Tervigon
The last option is start floating zoeys. Elites are looking less and less impressive, and so they may start popping up more and more often. Warp blast is rough to use, and at this point I'd legitimately just use them as psychic rolls.
The Tervigon has 3 main flaws:
1) Force Concentration: You are putting all your eggs in one basket. Lose that Tervigon on turn 1 or 2 and you are screwed. Lose it turn 4 and you are still probably losing that game.
2) Unreliability: Your tervigon's bonus is spawning gaunts, but some games he will spawn 40 Gaunts, and some games he will spawn 5.
3) Inability to contribute: The Tervigon being your backfield synapse, and slow means that it can't do much more than hold back and maybe buff a bit. Contrast warriors + 2 zoeys. You can keep your warriors back contributing with a barbed strangler while you zoeys advance with some of your Gaunts. The zoeys are also more effective buffers because there are 2 squads of them.
Ran skyblight swarm tonight at 1500. 2 flyrants, 2 crones, 2 harpies, 3x10 gargoyles, a venomthrope, 1 warrior brood and 10 termagants. My opponent was using a scaled down flying circus list copied from the adepticon winner - fate weaver, 2 tzeench princes, pink horrors, daemonettes, csm sorc, 10x cultists and a heldrake.
It was barely a contest. While her DPs seemingly were infallible with their armor saves in the first couple of turns. The rest of the pieces of the army fell to templates, blast markers, and vector strikes. By game turn 5 all that was left was a single daemon prince while all I had lost was a harpy the venomthrope and a warrior. The gargoyles that died (2 broods) both came back.
Jy2 had it right - there's nothing "casual" about skyblight tyranids.
I have read this thread from start to finish and there is some awesome info and thoughts in here.
I have a question to those that are running MCs with a HVC or STC, have any of you tried running either of these with the Miasma Cannon? It is a way of making the old school gun beast that could fire both a Venom cannon and a Barbed strangler at the same time (older edition).
I know the 2x TL devourers are the king of load outs currently, but is there a place for a Miasma Cannon/HVC or STC wielding BS4 tyrant?
I have read this thread from start to finish and there is some awesome info and thoughts in here.
I have a question to those that are running MCs with a HVC or STC, have any of you tried running either of these with the Miasma Cannon? It is a way of making the old school gun beast that could fire both a Venom cannon and a Barbed strangler at the same time (older edition).
I know the 2x TL devourers are the king of load outs currently, but is there a place for a Miasma Cannon/HVC or STC wielding BS4 tyrant?
The problem with the Miasma cannon, except for a few MCs, the HVC wounds everything on a 2+ anyway, so you don't really gain anything other than the template, which Desiccator Larvae can do the same thing for cheaper. If you wanted both on your Tyrant, it saves you a little bit, but for a little extra you could fire both- and the HVC can ping vehicles to boot. The twin-devourers can do most of the same things the HVC or STC can do better- hitting light tanks, or hitting infantry units. HVC can pen Monoliths and Landraiders with lucky dice, but it would be more likely to go down if you just charged and Smashed.
The Tervigon has 3 main flaws:
1) Force Concentration: You are putting all your eggs in one basket. Lose that Tervigon on turn 1 or 2 and you are screwed. Lose it turn 4 and you are still probably losing that game.
2) Unreliability: Your tervigon's bonus is spawning gaunts, but some games he will spawn 40 Gaunts, and some games he will spawn 5.
3) Inability to contribute: The Tervigon being your backfield synapse, and slow means that it can't do much more than hold back and maybe buff a bit. Contrast warriors + 2 zoeys. You can keep your warriors back contributing with a barbed strangler while you zoeys advance with some of your Gaunts. The zoeys are also more effective buffers because there are 2 squads of them.
I'm not disagreeing that I'd much rather play groups of 10 gaunts with a Tervigon that cost 20% less, but that was last edition. Here, if you try and push anything more, you're strapped down trying to get solid anti air.
The issue with all of the other troops choices is that they counter their actual purpose, which is to sit on and/or claim objectives.
Troops should be:
A) Tough (Strength in numbers counts)
B) Fast
C) Shooty
Tough and shooty troops sit on an objective with as much cover as possible. Fast ones move to objectives on the last round and claim/contest.
The Tervigon fits this role as a tough troop choice. Unfortunately, unless you're playing Skyblight with claiming Jump Infantry (So much win), 'Nids don't really have a set of troops that is either of the other two qualities OTHER than the Tervigon and her kids. The fact she has synapse and a secondary role is icing on the cake.
tetrisphreak wrote:Ran skyblight swarm tonight at 1500. 2 flyrants, 2 crones, 2 harpies, 3x10 gargoyles, a venomthrope, 1 warrior brood and 10 termagants. My opponent was using a scaled down flying circus list copied from the adepticon winner - fate weaver, 2 tzeench princes, pink horrors, daemonettes, csm sorc, 10x cultists and a heldrake.
It was barely a contest. While her DPs seemingly were infallible with their armor saves in the first couple of turns. The rest of the pieces of the army fell to templates, blast markers, and vector strikes. By game turn 5 all that was left was a single daemon prince while all I had lost was a harpy the venomthrope and a warrior. The gargoyles that died (2 broods) both came back.
Jy2 had it right - there's nothing "casual" about skyblight tyranids.
Yay for the bugs! Personally, I would have like to have seen a second crone over the second harpy, but that's just because of my meta. So many flying croissants. Gargoyles as recurring troops is fantastic.
I have read this thread from start to finish and there is some awesome info and thoughts in here.
I have a question to those that are running MCs with a HVC or STC, have any of you tried running either of these with the Miasma Cannon? It is a way of making the old school gun beast that could fire both a Venom cannon and a Barbed strangler at the same time (older edition).
I know the 2x TL devourers are the king of load outs currently, but is there a place for a Miasma Cannon/HVC or STC wielding BS4 tyrant?
The problem with the Miasma cannon, except for a few MCs, the HVC wounds everything on a 2+ anyway, so you don't really gain anything other than the template, which Desiccator Larvae can do the same thing for cheaper. If you wanted both on your Tyrant, it saves you a little bit, but for a little extra you could fire both- and the HVC can ping vehicles to boot. The twin-devourers can do most of the same things the HVC or STC can do better- hitting light tanks, or hitting infantry units. HVC can pen Monoliths and Landraiders with lucky dice, but it would be more likely to go down if you just charged and Smashed.
Pretty much this. The Miasma is just a hair more expensive than useful. It's tolerable on a Trygon Prime or a Prime warrior, as they usually don't have access to additional ranged firepower.
captnobvious wrote: If they had specializing gear, I'd agree. Give them something with skyfire/flamer/ T5 or make them cheaper and I'd start fielding them as primary troops. As it stands the main reason to take them is due to the fact they're probably the most efficient synapse. 100 points for a squad with a strangler.
100 Points for a group of 3 with a strangler
124 For 4 stealers and a Broodlord
315 for a gant brood + Tervigon
The last option is start floating zoeys. Elites are looking less and less impressive, and so they may start popping up more and more often. Warp blast is rough to use, and at this point I'd legitimately just use them as psychic rolls.
For me, Zoeys are durable Synapse, and a roll on Powers of the Hive Mind!, Warp Blast/Lance is just gravy.
One popular use for the 30 Gants/or the Terv is to Outflank with Hive Commander. The Gants will need Synapse though. I usually recommend the Terv. It can spawn Troops to grab Victory points in the enemies backfield And it can provide Synapse to other Deepstrikers if you have them.
An unspoken part of this is it keeps the two far apart, so no backlash
I agree that 3 Warriors with a Strangle cannon is a very good buy, but I like a little extra kit. 2 Deathspitters only costs 10 more, likewise 2x Rending Claws. Either one can boost your effectiveness, I often use both (I built them that way )
If you're running Formations you can also try a Endless Tunnel Assault to add speed. Respawning troops can pop out of tunnels in the enemies side of the table
Though the only reason to use Endless Tunnel is that you don't have the figs to run Skyblight
Terv still rolls on powers right? Or am i just crazy? And they do have a gun. It's just a very mediocre one. And to be honest, I'd rather walk/run and smash with a Terv than try and Lance a tank. 50 points purely for synapse feels.....meh....
The warriors provide a lot of utility. They're synapse. They're much better than average at melee. 3 wounds per model is nothing atrocious. And they can get decked out if needed. I think they are fantastic babysitters for MC's and artillery pieces, providing a 3 ft snipe and coverage from deep strikers.
Interesting thinking of the tunneling swarm as a poor man's Skyblight. It has it's own applications.
I have read this thread from start to finish and there is some awesome info and thoughts in here.
I have a question to those that are running MCs with a HVC or STC, have any of you tried running either of these with the Miasma Cannon? It is a way of making the old school gun beast that could fire both a Venom cannon and a Barbed strangler at the same time (older edition).
I know the 2x TL devourers are the king of load outs currently, but is there a place for a Miasma Cannon/HVC or STC wielding BS4 tyrant?
The problem with the Miasma cannon, except for a few MCs, the HVC wounds everything on a 2+ anyway, so you don't really gain anything other than the template, which Desiccator Larvae can do the same thing for cheaper. If you wanted both on your Tyrant, it saves you a little bit, but for a little extra you could fire both- and the HVC can ping vehicles to boot. The twin-devourers can do most of the same things the HVC or STC can do better- hitting light tanks, or hitting infantry units. HVC can pen Monoliths and Landraiders with lucky dice, but it would be more likely to go down if you just charged and Smashed.
Ah right. All good points. Thank you for clarifying... That clears up my thoughts now. No walkrant, flyrant with devourers it is!
Just getting back into 40k after a bit of a lay off with kids being born and stuff, so haven't played at all in 6th. Trying to catch up really fast
However, if you're using zoey for tank killing, 2 individuals is a low chance of killing high armor with deny the witch. Might think about grouping them.
If you're going for synapse and you're allying yourself, go for broke and get a Prime with Miasma Cannon instead of those two or you might think about a Malanthrope if you have cash money.
To be perfectly fair here? I can see your suggestion but I'm ignoring it. Never take Zoeys to go tank hunting. Take individual Zoeys to act as buffers. With 2 individual zoeys that's a healthy 8 rolls for psychic powers at the start of the game increasing my chances for Catalyst and Onslaught as well as a further spread out synapse bubble. Tanks? Well, I'm a Tyranid. We either glance the things to death with twin devourers or we hit it in the face.
But I'll definately not take your suggestion of a Prime with a Miasma Cannon. Seriously, replacing a Flyrant with its threat potential, mobility, larger synapse radius (due to its base) and its psychic abilities with that? Ew. No. Keep it over there please.
I'd have loved to see Zoanthropes with a "Booster brain" option, where you get to roll twice for psychic powers instead of automatically getting the blast. The lance is great, but boosters that I could take singly, hide behind things, and make my forces better or their forces weaker? Way cooler.
[edit] Whoops, electrogrubs are cheaper than I remember. As I was.
However, if you're using zoey for tank killing, 2 individuals is a low chance of killing high armor with deny the witch. Might think about grouping them.
If you're going for synapse and you're allying yourself, go for broke and get a Prime with Miasma Cannon instead of those two or you might think about a Malanthrope if you have cash money.
If you're going to have Miasma cannons on something, put them on a Trygon prime so it can do a bit more when it pops out.
As for the T-fex: The T-fex offers you a glorified and overpriced Hellhound, a baby's first Leman Russ Punisher, and a "Wish I was a godhammer land raider".
All the weapons on a T-Fex are a resounding "Meh".
A torrent that can't kill MEQs, a two shot S10 gun with only BS3 and AP4 and no special effects, and 20 fleshborers taped together and rather piddly thorax swarms and spines that you can no longer use all of at once.
Oh and using all of it's firepower means getting into assault range.
With a model that's very, very easily tarpitted.
But hey, it's durable!
Except everyone knows shooting it is a waste of time so it's not even a good meatshield.
Except everyone knows shooting it is a waste of time so it's not even a good meatshield.
Thing is though? With all those templates if it gets to the enemy lines unscathed it will start to FORCE wounds on squads. It's the same way IG and Ork players have dealt with Terminators and the same way we can do as well - volume of fire or in the case of the T-fex, wounding hits. It's not fantastic. It's certainly not a Riptide or Wraithknight but it certainly isn't to be sniffed at for what it does with other units.
Except everyone knows shooting it is a waste of time so it's not even a good meatshield.
Thing is though? With all those templates if it gets to the enemy lines unscathed it will start to FORCE wounds on squads. It's the same way IG and Ork players have dealt with Terminators and the same way we can do as well - volume of fire or in the case of the T-fex, wounding hits. It's not fantastic. It's certainly not a Riptide or Wraithknight but it certainly isn't to be sniffed at for what it does with other units.
Still, the thought of paying so much for what amounts for a more durable but slower hellhound that can't be squadronned with a heavy flamer rankles.
Especially when say Orks just charge the thing and ensure it's going to be stuck in assault with chaff all game long.
It's better against Xenos and Guard armies (except for Immortal using Necrons) to be sure though.
To be perfectly fair here? I can see your suggestion but I'm ignoring it. Never take Zoeys to go tank hunting. Take individual Zoeys to act as buffers. With 2 individual zoeys that's a healthy 8 rolls for psychic powers at the start of the game increasing my chances for Catalyst and Onslaught as well as a further spread out synapse bubble. Tanks? Well, I'm a Tyranid. We either glance the things to death with twin devourers or we hit it in the face.
Couple of things. DtW effects both blasts, and the 24" version is still a solid MEQ killer, though, again BS3 makes it meh, that was more what I was referring to. Having them group blast MEQ squads with one DtW roll is subjective call. If you're using them for synapse nodes, a warrior pack does the same thing with a usable gun.
If you're using them for psychic rolls, I gotcha, but at no point was that considered a cost factor.
DarkStarSabre wrote:
But I'll definately not take your suggestion of a Prime with a Miasma Cannon. Seriously, replacing a Flyrant with its threat potential, mobility, larger synapse radius (due to its base) and its psychic abilities with that? Ew. No. Keep it over there please.
DarkStarSabre wrote:
Back to the 1800 point tournament. Formations were told no, but in return the TOs did state Tyranids could ally with themselves (huzzah!). This is mainly after I pointed out where every other army could ally with something Tyranids got formations - so they evened that up for the sake of fairness (because to be fair I'm expecting to see Taudar, Deldar and anything Inquisition cropping up with 3 HQs).
If you're allying with yourself, your "ally" has an empty HQ slot. Hence the suggestion. Dropping a flyrant for it IS bad. That's why I didn't suggest it. It does on the other hand give a solid 3rd man to your group of 'Fexes stomping up the board, lets you "look out sir" and the cannon's large blast and flamer template do as you posted about the T-fex later......
DarkStarSabre wrote:
Thing is though? With all those templates if it gets to the enemy lines unscathed it will start to FORCE wounds on squads......
I've come to the conclusion that a properly run Mechanized Dark Eldar (especially a Venom heavy one) list is just not possible for a Tyranid list to beat without hard-core list tailoring/dumb luck. Especially since their fliers are so murderous to anything with a toughness value; easily blasting skyblights out of the sky. But honestly, even with BRB powers back they'd still hack us apart like they always have since they got their latest book. Our poor range for shooting makes that range reducing bit of war gear especially brutal, while their speed makes catching them in assault next to impossible and they have the dakka to cut down hordes and the kit to gun down MCs. And even if you do catch them in assault; Dark Eldar units tend to be quite nasty in chopping distance.
Grey Knights are also a brutal match-up. While the loss of BRB powers pending a FAQ has killed off most psychic choir lists (which were the ones that the Grey Knights really screwed over), it turns out that being an army tailored against daemons also makes them very good against us as we're also an army with generally poor saves and AP/short ranged shooting, a mix of fragile cheap units and monstrous creatures, and a lot of psykers.
I'd avoid assaulting Dreadknights with any monstrous creature as they'll probably survive to punch back and instant death it, while their flamers are also nasty to hordes. Tie these up with cheap, fearless cannon fodder, but don't think you can ignore them, they're good against anything in the army. Storm ravens are a pain to bring down, and always try to get the guy with the nemesis thunder hammer out of the squad before assaulting them with a monstrous creature unless you want to watch your Trygon explode with the first hit.
Overall all our problems with these two armies remain from the last book and they remain abysmal match-ups. If their lists are tailored to kill Tyranids (not even your list, just tyranids in general), you may as well not play.
Wakshaani wrote: I'd have loved to see Zoanthropes with a "Booster brain" option, where you get to roll twice for psychic powers instead of automatically getting the blast. The lance is great, but boosters that I could take singly, hide behind things, and make my forces better or their forces weaker? Way cooler.
Completely agreed. But at this point, that seems to be the most relevant use of them nowadays. Cheapest synapse and psychic rolls we got.
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Kain wrote: I've come to the conclusion that a properly run Mechanized Dark Eldar (especially a Venom heavy one) list is just not possible for a Tyranid list to beat without hard-core list tailoring/dumb luck. Especially since their fliers are so murderous to anything with a toughness value; easily blasting skyblights out of the sky. But honestly, even with BRB powers back they'd still hack us apart like they always have since they got their latest book. Our poor range for shooting makes that range reducing bit of war gear especially brutal, while their speed makes catching them in assault next to impossible and they have the dakka to cut down hordes and the kit to gun down MCs. And even if you do catch them in assault; Dark Eldar units tend to be quite nasty in chopping distance.
Grey Knights are also a brutal match-up. While the loss of BRB powers pending a FAQ has killed off most psychic choir lists (which were the ones that the Grey Knights really screwed over), it turns out that being an army tailored against daemons also makes them very good against us as we're also an army with generally poor saves and AP/short ranged shooting, a mix of fragile cheap units and monstrous creatures, and a lot of psykers.
I'd avoid assaulting Dreadknights with any monstrous creature as they'll probably survive to punch back and instant death it, while their flamers are also nasty to hordes. Tie these up with cheap, fearless cannon fodder, but don't think you can ignore them, they're good against anything in the army. Storm ravens are a pain to bring down, and always try to get the guy with the nemesis thunder hammer out of the squad before assaulting them with a monstrous creature unless you want to watch your Trygon explode with the first hit.
Overall all our problems with these two armies remain from the last book and they remain abysmal match-ups. If their lists are tailored to kill Tyranids (not even your list, just tyranids in general), you may as well not play.
I have been having trouble vs Grey Knights as well, I'm still kinda stuck as to what to do.
DE I have less of a problem with as brittle as they are, our blasts actually make a good dent in them. A mess of cover and Biovores are usually what saved the day for me, personally.
bodazoka wrote: What do you all do with the Tervigon + 30 gaunts?
I understand that the Tervigon sits there for backfield synapse but does it actually cause any pain to the enemy?
If you have a lot going forward that's hard to kill that will take your opponent multiple turns to deal with, when it comes to late game a Tervigon is very difficult to shift.
Just scoring one objective can mean a win.
For me the Tervigon is used to score my home objective.
I tend to send my 30 Gants forward to sit on a midfield objective, take the relic or otherwise put pressure on the opponents objectives.
30 Gaunts are hard to shift. They can also be a great tarpit or meatshield for things like Zoanthropes so they can continue to buff or shoot.
Tervigon's and large units of fearless Gaunts worked very well under the previous dex, the same still applies.
I would add that some things are extremely important for the Nids to do well.
Cover is huge especially if you are running things like Tyranofex's, Charging towards plasma/lascannon fire is not good so make use of cover as much as possible.
Yes it slows you down a touch but that can be rectified somewhat with Adrenal Glands.
Buffs are clearly hugely important also.
Having FNP and Cover on your T'fex gives you decent odds to save some wounds thus making it difficult to bring things like Fex's down before its too late.
Cover is also massive in the respect of going first in combat against things like Imperial Knights or something similar, getting to hit first is therefore hugely important.
Onslaught is also massive, it can turn a Tfex into being a primary target first turn when you run/shoot your torrent flamer into the enemy lines.
Make use of cover, make use of the buffs gained from powers, make it difficult for the opponent to decide what the priority target should be.
That's enough ramblings from me as I'm sure most of you guys know this already
Hive commander on the flyrant means a troop can outflank. Depending on opponent I will outflank either 30 gants with a bunch of devourers or the tervigon. Link this with a comms relay and you have a high chance of all reserves including mawlocs dropping in turn two as the FMCs dive forward. If they have squishy troops then outflank the gants - if they have lots of tin cans then outflank the tervigon with haywire template.
ruminator wrote: Hive commander on the flyrant means a troop can outflank. Depending on opponent I will outflank either 30 gants with a bunch of devourers or the tervigon. Link this with a comms relay and you have a high chance of all reserves including mawlocs dropping in turn two as the FMCs dive forward. If they have squishy troops then outflank the gants - if they have lots of tin cans then outflank the tervigon with haywire template.
I have trouble finding room for these extra niceities in 1650 or under.
Certainly do add to the list though and create additional problems for your opponent.
Relay/Bastion is certainly useful for higher point games/lists.
While I mostly play big games (3000+) I have found a pair of outflanking Tervis are a right pain for my opponent as they will spit out a least a couple of turns of termies and clog up their back line just as everything else from my army is hitting their back line.
tag8833 wrote: 1) Force Concentration: You are putting all your eggs in one basket. Lose that Tervigon on turn 1 or 2 and you are screwed. Lose it turn 4 and you are still probably losing that game.
Who kills Tervigons? I have had like 3 or 4 Tervigons die since the 5th Edition codex dropped. If you lost your Tervigon you played him wrong, or Iron Arm failed you in 5th Ed.
Mad.. wrote: Hi all, I have read this thread from start to finish and there is some awesome info and thoughts in here.
I have read this thread from start to finish and there is some awesome info and thoughts in here.
I have a question to those that are running MCs with a HVC or STC, have any of you tried running either of these with the Miasma Cannon? It is a way of making the old school gun beast that could fire both a Venom cannon and a Barbed strangler at the same time (older edition).
I know the 2x TL devourers are the king of load outs currently, but is there a place for a Miasma Cannon/HVC or STC wielding BS4 tyrant?
I only looked at the Miasma Canon to put on my backfield Tervigon so he could add something additional to the game.
For me it didn't work and the points could be spent better elsewhere.
But its all dependant on your list and use.
I don't think there's a defined top tier list yet although we seem to be potentially getting close to a "NID top tier list".
It really is a matter of testing and what works for you might not work for someone else's play style or in someone else's meta.
I don't like the Miasma Cannon on a Trygon Prime, because it reduces the number of attacks it gets in CC.
I like it on a flyrant, coupled with a thorax swarm, to get a double-template (templant) flying MC.
On a Tervigon, it doesn't really hurt but I'd rather just spend the points for Regeneration instead on that one.
Overall though unless i'm going for a Templant i don't particularly mess with the Miasma Cannon. I've got a nice one converted up from leftover harpy bits, though, so the option is there for me.
jy2 wrote: BTW, it might not be pure RAW, but most of the larger tournaments, including the LVO, BAO, Adepticon and Nova have or will have it in the FAQ's that yes, you can charge a walker that you can't hurt.
Quite amusing that they are not slowed by terrain, but can be stopped by critters who can't hurt them. The logic?
jy2 wrote: BTW, it might not be pure RAW, but most of the larger tournaments, including the LVO, BAO, Adepticon and Nova have or will have it in the FAQ's that yes, you can charge a walker that you can't hurt.
Quite amusing that they are not slowed by terrain, but can be stopped by critters who can't hurt them. The logic?
Shush, just go with it. If enough tournaments ignore the rules we might get the entire community to do so and be able to charge Knights as well.
jy2 wrote: BTW, it might not be pure RAW, but most of the larger tournaments, including the LVO, BAO, Adepticon and Nova have or will have it in the FAQ's that yes, you can charge a walker that you can't hurt.
Quite amusing that they are not slowed by terrain, but can be stopped by critters who can't hurt them. The logic?
I've found that the best list I can run so far without homebrews and houserules is essentially two flyrants (four in dual foc), as few points spent on Termagants as possible, and then cramming as many skyblight swarms as possible for maximum flying circus/endless waves of respawning gargoyles. If you have points free but can't afford another swarm, make the gargoyle broods bigger
Up until you roll purge the alien, in which case you're screwed.
For maximum lulz, fight a Krieg Assault Brigade list with their own never-ending waves of respawning troops.
tetrisphreak wrote: Ran skyblight swarm tonight at 1500. 2 flyrants, 2 crones, 2 harpies, 3x10 gargoyles, a venomthrope, 1 warrior brood and 10 termagants. My opponent was using a scaled down flying circus list copied from the adepticon winner - fate weaver, 2 tzeench princes, pink horrors, daemonettes, csm sorc, 10x cultists and a heldrake.
It was barely a contest. While her DPs seemingly were infallible with their armor saves in the first couple of turns. The rest of the pieces of the army fell to templates, blast markers, and vector strikes. By game turn 5 all that was left was a single daemon prince while all I had lost was a harpy the venomthrope and a warrior. The gargoyles that died (2 broods) both came back.
Jy2 had it right - there's nothing "casual" about skyblight tyranids.
FMC daemons actually match up really bad against Skyblight. They don't have the shooting to ground the tyranid FMC's and bugs don't care if they assault the scoring gargoyles. On top of that, Shadows really wreak havoc on their psychic powers. The army that will match up better against Skyblight are the ones with a lot of shooting. They need to be able to ground those FMC's (or kill them in the air).
I have read this thread from start to finish and there is some awesome info and thoughts in here.
I have a question to those that are running MCs with a HVC or STC, have any of you tried running either of these with the Miasma Cannon? It is a way of making the old school gun beast that could fire both a Venom cannon and a Barbed strangler at the same time (older edition).
I know the 2x TL devourers are the king of load outs currently, but is there a place for a Miasma Cannon/HVC or STC wielding BS4 tyrant?
Welcome to our thread. Glad you're finding it useful.
You could run it, but 2x Devourers is the most efficient load-out for them. Anything else will be less than optimal IMO. Moreover, now your flyrant won't be able to deal with other flyers other than vector strikes. Basically, I'd only run a miasma/HVC/STC flyrant if I wanted to nerf myself (say, my gaming group isn't so competitive).
tetrisphreak wrote:Ran skyblight swarm tonight at 1500. 2 flyrants, 2 crones, 2 harpies, 3x10 gargoyles, a venomthrope, 1 warrior brood and 10 termagants. My opponent was using a scaled down flying circus list copied from the adepticon winner - fate weaver, 2 tzeench princes, pink horrors, daemonettes, csm sorc, 10x cultists and a heldrake.
It was barely a contest. While her DPs seemingly were infallible with their armor saves in the first couple of turns. The rest of the pieces of the army fell to templates, blast markers, and vector strikes. By game turn 5 all that was left was a single daemon prince while all I had lost was a harpy the venomthrope and a warrior. The gargoyles that died (2 broods) both came back.
Jy2 had it right - there's nothing "casual" about skyblight tyranids.
Yay for the bugs! Personally, I would have like to have seen a second crone over the second harpy, but that's just because of my meta. So many flying croissants. Gargoyles as recurring troops is fantastic.
Just fyi,Skyblight Formation requires you to take 2 harpies. Thus, you cannot swap them out.
Kain wrote: I've come to the conclusion that a properly run Mechanized Dark Eldar (especially a Venom heavy one) list is just not possible for a Tyranid list to beat without hard-core list tailoring/dumb luck. Especially since their fliers are so murderous to anything with a toughness value; easily blasting skyblights out of the sky. But honestly, even with BRB powers back they'd still hack us apart like they always have since they got their latest book. Our poor range for shooting makes that range reducing bit of war gear especially brutal, while their speed makes catching them in assault next to impossible and they have the dakka to cut down hordes and the kit to gun down MCs. And even if you do catch them in assault; Dark Eldar units tend to be quite nasty in chopping distance.
Grey Knights are also a brutal match-up. While the loss of BRB powers pending a FAQ has killed off most psychic choir lists (which were the ones that the Grey Knights really screwed over), it turns out that being an army tailored against daemons also makes them very good against us as we're also an army with generally poor saves and AP/short ranged shooting, a mix of fragile cheap units and monstrous creatures, and a lot of psykers.
I'd avoid assaulting Dreadknights with any monstrous creature as they'll probably survive to punch back and instant death it, while their flamers are also nasty to hordes. Tie these up with cheap, fearless cannon fodder, but don't think you can ignore them, they're good against anything in the army. Storm ravens are a pain to bring down, and always try to get the guy with the nemesis thunder hammer out of the squad before assaulting them with a monstrous creature unless you want to watch your Trygon explode with the first hit.
Overall all our problems with these two armies remain from the last book and they remain abysmal match-ups. If their lists are tailored to kill Tyranids (not even your list, just tyranids in general), you may as well not play.
Actually, Tyranid FMC-spam can decimate DE under the right conditions. One of the weaknesses of DE is their anti-air. A dual flyrant/triple-crone Tyranid list is a competitive TAC Tyranid army. If they can get the first turn (and if the deployment isn't Hammer & Anvil), then nids can potentially cripple DE with a hard alpha-strike. Also, I normally run a venomthrope in a bastion so even if they aren't going 1st, you could survive a DE alpha-strike by hiding your FMC's behind the bastion and/or ruins (make sure to place the bastion near ruins) for 2+ cover.
Grey Knights are a mixed bag. I've played both Draigowing and Purifiers against Tyranids and while I did win, it wasn't an easy victory for the knights (my Draigowing would have lost had the game ended on 5!). Grey knights will also have problems against a lot of FMC's. Overall, I think the new bugs match up better against the knights in this edition better than they did back in 5th.
I don't think there's a defined top tier list yet although we seem to be potentially getting close to a "NID top tier list".
It really is a matter of testing and what works for you might not work for someone else's play style or in someone else's meta.
IMO, the best Tyranid list you can run (without resorting to Skyblight or other dataslate formations) is a FMC-spam bug list. 2 flyrants, 3 FA flyers (either crones or harpies, but more crones than harpies) and a mix of Heavies (including 1-2 mawlocs) along with the bastion.
jy2 wrote: BTW, it might not be pure RAW, but most of the larger tournaments, including the LVO, BAO, Adepticon and Nova have or will have it in the FAQ's that yes, you can charge a walker that you can't hurt.
Quite amusing that they are not slowed by terrain, but can be stopped by critters who can't hurt them. The logic?
This is their justification:
1. They're intepretating walkers "assaulting like infantry" to be more specific than a walker is a vehicle.
2. The main reason is for practicality. Imagine someone brings an army of Imperial Knights. With true RAW, if you don't have a powerfist or other such weapon in your list (nowadays, many people don't because of challenges), then you can't even charge the knights at all. Horde armies can't even play against an IK army. This would severely limit the usability of many army builds like horde guards, horde daemons, Typhus-zombies, many infantry-based lists, etc. Thus, better to take the D and stomp attacks than to be completely helpless against these types of armies.
captnobvious wrote: Terv still rolls on powers right? Or am i just crazy? And they do have a gun. It's just a very mediocre one. And to be honest, I'd rather walk/run and smash with a Terv than try and Lance a tank. 50 points purely for synapse feels.....meh....
The warriors provide a lot of utility. They're synapse. They're much better than average at melee. 3 wounds per model is nothing atrocious. And they can get decked out if needed. I think they are fantastic babysitters for MC's and artillery pieces, providing a 3 ft snipe and coverage from deep strikers.
Interesting thinking of the tunneling swarm as a poor man's Skyblight. It has it's own applications.
For the cost of one Terv+5, you can buy 4 Zoeys, its 50 pts for one roll per Brood (Powers of the Hive Mind!), and durable Synapse (3++ Sav), and it can Warp Blast/Lance. Tervigons do get a roll, but its usually best to take the Primarus for the extra coverage, though giving a big Brood Feel no pain is pretty Awesome Warriors also count as Troops, so they can sit on VPs, shoot their Cannon, And provide Synapse. But that costs 100 min, and that is two Zoeys. For me, both play featured roles in my lists.
Tervigon is a Monsterous Creature, but running up, and Smashing is the opposite of babysitting the backfield, so it can lead you astray...(cause you to drop Broods out of Synapse by charging too far, and if you get isolated, a dead Terv. provides no Synapse )
Late entry, if you want a more active Terv, just add some kit, Electro-bugs is a good one( Rending beatles is a all comers choice as well). even Crushing Claws lets you rip into MEQs. Heck even a Miasma Cannon is a reasonable (though high priced) buy...
All three are for the defensive tervigon who doesn't like backfield reserves coming at him. The Cannon requires a bit of midfield play.
Can't argue, though I sometimes take Electro Bugs if I am afraid of heavy mech armys (DE, IG, even Space marines at times, and these days Imperial Knights ... )
If you're allying with yourself, your "ally" has an empty HQ slot. Hence the suggestion. Dropping a flyrant for it IS bad. That's why I didn't suggest it. It does on the other hand give a solid 3rd man to your group of 'Fexes stomping up the board, lets you "look out sir" and the cannon's large blast and flamer template do as you posted about the T-fex later......
You might want to read my list again.
The HQ slot is not empty.
The HQ slot is a third Flyrant - admittedly a melee Flyrant but he has a very specific role in hunting command squads, other monsters or MSUs that get bold enough to come out into the open. You are effectively telling me to drop a Flyrant to take a Prime, telling me to group up individual Zoeys that are purposefully being used as Synapse and potential buffers and again not realising the two Carnifexes are individuals as well.
The reasons for so many individual units? First- target saturation. If my opponent has to fire one devastator squad or one S8 blast template to kill 2 Zoeys then that is far worse for me than two individuals forcing him to pick one or the other. Second - With the Carnifexes? Might want to read the Instinctive Behavior rules again - individual models do not suffer the 'worst' result if they are outside of Synapse whereas grouped models do - a pair of Carnifexes potentially can rip ithemselves apart if they get out of a synapse bubble whereas an individual suffers much less severe consequences.
jy2 wrote: BTW, it might not be pure RAW, but most of the larger tournaments, including the LVO, BAO, Adepticon and Nova have or will have it in the FAQ's that yes, you can charge a walker that you can't hurt.
Quite amusing that they are not slowed by terrain, but can be stopped by critters who can't hurt them. The logic?
... But they are slowed by terrain...
The knights, super heavy walkers (escalation) or both?
All three are for the defensive tervigon who doesn't like backfield reserves coming at him. The Cannon requires a bit of midfield play.
Can't argue, though I sometimes take Electro Bugs if I am afraid of heavy mech armys (DE, IG, even Space marines at times, and these days Imperial Knights ... )
I take electroshock because ap5 is good at flushing xenos who enjoy cover. Guardians, rangers, pathfinders, guardsmen etc. (edit yes I know guardsmen aren't xenos but they do have 5+ armor)
tag8833 wrote: 1) Force Concentration: You are putting all your eggs in one basket. Lose that Tervigon on turn 1 or 2 and you are screwed. Lose it turn 4 and you are still probably losing that game.
Who kills Tervigons? I have had like 3 or 4 Tervigons die since the 5th Edition codex dropped. If you lost your Tervigon you played him wrong, or Iron Arm failed you in 5th Ed.
You are joking right?
Tervigons without Iron Arm die like everything else, and if you base you gameplan on it surviving, a good opponent will kill it. Not to mention the cost of a tervigon subtracting from the points you have to spend on units with a chance to reduce the enemy firepower.
I'm not joking, my Tervigons almost never die...I came close at Adepticon when my Tervigon got in a slap fight with a tyrranofex...but I won that fight with a wound left.
SIdenote: Da Wreckin Boyz play a great game!..and thanks for the beers.
Just fyi,Skyblight Formation requires you to take 2 harpies. Thus, you cannot swap them out.
Oh, I know. I meant to put in "if I had it my way", my bad. Harpies feel meh.
pinecone77 wrote:
captnobvious wrote: Terv still rolls on powers right? Or am i just crazy? And they do have a gun. It's just a very mediocre one. And to be honest, I'd rather walk/run and smash with a Terv than try and Lance a tank. 50 points purely for synapse feels.....meh....
The warriors provide a lot of utility. They're synapse. They're much better than average at melee. 3 wounds per model is nothing atrocious. And they can get decked out if needed. I think they are fantastic babysitters for MC's and artillery pieces, providing a 3 ft snipe and coverage from deep strikers.
Interesting thinking of the tunneling swarm as a poor man's Skyblight. It has it's own applications.
For the cost of one Terv+5, you can buy 4 Zoeys, its 50 pts for one roll per Brood (Powers of the Hive Mind!), and durable Synapse (3++ Sav), and it can Warp Blast/Lance. Tervigons do get a roll, but its usually best to take the Primarus for the extra coverage, though giving a big Brood Feel no pain is pretty Awesome Warriors also count as Troops, so they can sit on VPs, shoot their Cannon, And provide Synapse. But that costs 100 min, and that is two Zoeys. For me, both play featured roles in my lists.
Tervigon is a Monsterous Creature, but running up, and Smashing is the opposite of babysitting the backfield, so it can lead you astray...(cause you to drop Broods out of Synapse by charging too far, and if you get isolated, a dead Terv. provides no Synapse )
Late entry, if you want a more active Terv, just add some kit, Electro-bugs is a good one( Rending beatles is a all comers choice as well). even Crushing Claws lets you rip into MEQs. Heck even a Miasma Cannon is a reasonable (though high priced) buy...
Don't get me wrong, warriors and Zoeys all have their place. I'm talking about troops here. And of the troops choices in a standard FOC, Tervigons are on par if not better than Warriors (albeit more expensive). I just think of Tervigons as a solid anchor considerings the majority of your games are objective based. And they are particularly strong at sitting on objectives. Running out and smashing vehicles is just a secondary role. It's not as if 'nids have problems in dealing with infantry. Having another area of the board near an objective denied to vehicles via threat of an MC with potential smash is valuable.
If zoeys were troops, or warriors were cheaper/tougher *cough*T5*cough* they'd be fine. Zoeys are just competing with venomthropes for that slot, and THAT is the rougher choice.
I like having a SOLID troops choice to rely on. And a couple of groups of minimum sized gants personally makes me nervous.
If you're allying with yourself, your "ally" has an empty HQ slot. Hence the suggestion. Dropping a flyrant for it IS bad. That's why I didn't suggest it. It does on the other hand give a solid 3rd man to your group of 'Fexes stomping up the board, lets you "look out sir" and the cannon's large blast and flamer template do as you posted about the T-fex later......
You might want to read my list again.
The HQ slot is not empty.
The HQ slot is a third Flyrant - admittedly a melee Flyrant but he has a very specific role in hunting command squads, other monsters or MSUs that get bold enough to come out into the open. You are effectively telling me to drop a Flyrant to take a Prime, telling me to group up individual Zoeys that are purposefully being used as Synapse and potential buffers and again not realising the two Carnifexes are individuals as well.
The reasons for so many individual units? First- target saturation. If my opponent has to fire one devastator squad or one S8 blast template to kill 2 Zoeys then that is far worse for me than two individuals forcing him to pick one or the other. Second - With the Carnifexes? Might want to read the Instinctive Behavior rules again - individual models do not suffer the 'worst' result if they are outside of Synapse whereas grouped models do - a pair of Carnifexes potentially can rip ithemselves apart if they get out of a synapse bubble whereas an individual suffers much less severe consequences.
So yeah, for the 3rd time. At no point am I saying drop a flyrant. From what I read, you essentially had 2 FOC's to fill. Meaning 4 HQ slots. Meaning you could have 2 Dakka Flyrants and your Melee Flyrant. And to substitute the 2 individual zoeys, I recommended a Prime with miasma to escort the 'Fexes OR a Malanthrope. The Mal still gives 1 Powers roll, is significantly tougher and has a bit more utility. That gives 2 purposes for another synapse node. If you're just looking for powers rolls, awesome. It's not a bad set of 100 points. I was just giving options/suggestions.
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ductvader wrote: My only Tervigon purchases are blasts and such.
tag8833 wrote: 1) Force Concentration: You are putting all your eggs in one basket. Lose that Tervigon on turn 1 or 2 and you are screwed. Lose it turn 4 and you are still probably losing that game.
Who kills Tervigons? I have had like 3 or 4 Tervigons die since the 5th Edition codex dropped. If you lost your Tervigon you played him wrong, or Iron Arm failed you in 5th Ed.!
Lol a lot of your posts suggest you play in no sort of competitive meta, but this one just confirms it.
Also, no matter how casual your setting, that logic is still terrible.
Judging by the fact that Nids just lost to Orks in a game I just witnessed, I would say that they're definitely in the three worst armies in the game, if not the worst. My rankings are Orks, BA, and Nids as the worst. Provided that is Nids straight from the dex, no formations.
Commander_Farsight wrote: Judging by the fact that Nids just lost to Orks in a game I just witnessed, I would say that they're definitely in the three worst armies in the game, if not the worst. My rankings are Orks, BA, and Nids as the worst. Provided that is Nids straight from the dex, no formations.
Anecdotal evididence isn't.
Considering at the last tournament I tabled an Eldar player in 4 turns. This means Nids are better than Eldar, right?
Commander_Farsight wrote: Judging by the fact that Nids just lost to Orks in a game I just witnessed, I would say that they're definitely in the three worst armies in the game, if not the worst. My rankings are Orks, BA, and Nids as the worst. Provided that is Nids straight from the dex, no formations.
I have tabled Daemons and bested Necrons (although that was a very close game) without formations. Tyranids only need Skyblight against Dark Eldar and high end stuff like Taudar.
Commander_Farsight wrote: Judging by the fact that Nids just lost to Orks in a game I just witnessed, I would say that they're definitely in the three worst armies in the game, if not the worst. My rankings are Orks, BA, and Nids as the worst. Provided that is Nids straight from the dex, no formations.
Anecdotal evididence isn't.
Considering at the last tournament I tabled an Eldar player in 4 turns. This means Nids are better than Eldar, right?
Thats fair enough. The sisters comment is too. I tabled that with Crisis suit spam, all with flamers.
I'm a long time Nid player and now after play testing the new codex (less formations) have found it to be pretty good. It feels a lot different from the last edition swarmy lists I used to run but it is a fine change of pace. Now I have not read this thread in its entirety (but have skimmed it) and was wondering (since I didn't see it) if anyone has thought of just using the flyrant with a bone/lash instead of TL devourers it gets the 4/5 I 8 S 6 AP 2 CC attacks. would the TL Ds be better or maybe one and the bone/lash?
Also on the note of higher I and AP 2 the trygon prime can take the reaper giving him 6 S 7 I 7 AP 2 CC that pared with 6 W and regen he can be a powerful heavy choice and good synapse for your forward units. Is anyone using this or is there a flaw I am forgetting?
What I have been running that dose well with the guys I play with is:
Now I have not used any formations with my LGS yet but maybe in the future. This list has done well for me so far won 4/5 games of course it has been tweeked every time but the basics are there. any thoughts?
One of my Tyrants is kitted out with Wings, the Reaper of Obliterax, 1 set of devourers & Electroshock Grubs to be versatile and able to deal with other MCs like Wraithknights which are a much more prevalent threat than Flyers in my local meta.
The flaw of a kitted out Trygon Prime is that it's hugely expensive for a slow model lacking any more protection than 6 wounds and a 3+ armour save.
So yeah, for the 3rd time. At no point am I saying drop a flyrant. From what I read, you essentially had 2 FOC's to fill. Meaning 4 HQ slots. Meaning you could have 2 Dakka Flyrants and your Melee Flyrant. And to substitute the 2 individual zoeys, I recommended a Prime with miasma to escort the 'Fexes OR a Malanthrope. The Mal still gives 1 Powers roll, is significantly tougher and has a bit more utility. That gives 2 purposes for another synapse node. If you're just looking for powers rolls, awesome. It's not a bad set of 100 points. I was just giving options/suggestions.
Please, reread the rules regarding Choosing Your Army again - page 108-109 if you are wondering. In particular note allied detachments. In short, you are only allowed ONEHQ/Elites/Fast Attack/Heavy Support and TWO Troops in an allied detachment.
So yes, you ARE effectively telling me to drop a Flyrant for your Prime fantasies. Please, do not presume to advise if you cannot understand even that principle. I seriously don't know what sorts of games you've been playing where allied detachments are just a second force org chart.
First time ever, I got 2 carnifexes to survive to turn 6 tonight. I ran a pretty fluffy list against Green Tide orks. Old One Eye died turn 2 to Mad Dok + 6 MANZ + MAWB. They multi-assaulted and killed my TFex as well. On turn 5 I lost one Dakkafex which left me with only 2 dakkafexes + Tyranid Prime at the end of the game. He had 2 squads of 20 boyz + a battle wagon left. It ended on a draw.
I've had carnifexes survive to the end of games before, but only in blow outs. This game went down to the wire. Orks are a good matchup for Dakka fexes. My dakka fexes far out performed my crone who was taken out by the quad gun + a dakkajet fairly easily.
On Saturday I ran the same list against drop pod salamanders. My dakkafexes were essentially the last units to die before I was tabled. Having now played a number of consecutive games against opponent who don't run gunline, I can see a little the appeal of the Carnifex. I'm still not sure they rate any better than Mawlocs, biovores (would have kicked ass in these 2 games), Tfexes or Exocrines. But if the enemy is coming to you, a Carnifex is a pretty good greeting party.
You ran Old One Eye and a Prime in the same list?
Dakkafices are awesome, they're so versatile and actually out-damage other HS options against a lot of targets they're supposed to be good against.
PrinceRaven wrote: You ran Old One Eye and a Prime in the same list?
Dakkafices are awesome, they're so versatile and actually out-damage other HS options against a lot of targets they're supposed to be good against.
I am going to buy 2 more today and finally be closer to putting together a decent list! I am dreading having to put together yet another two sets of twin linked devourers though!
PrinceRaven wrote: You ran Old One Eye and a Prime in the same list?
Dakkafices are awesome, they're so versatile and actually out-damage other HS options against a lot of targets they're supposed to be good against.
And since Exorcines and Biovores can be taken out of the FOC, you can have both your dakkafexes and your plasma/spore mine spam.
The only problem is the mandatory warrior brood GW seems to think 90% of all Tyranid ground based formations need.
So yeah, for the 3rd time. At no point am I saying drop a flyrant. From what I read, you essentially had 2 FOC's to fill. Meaning 4 HQ slots. Meaning you could have 2 Dakka Flyrants and your Melee Flyrant. And to substitute the 2 individual zoeys, I recommended a Prime with miasma to escort the 'Fexes OR a Malanthrope. The Mal still gives 1 Powers roll, is significantly tougher and has a bit more utility. That gives 2 purposes for another synapse node. If you're just looking for powers rolls, awesome. It's not a bad set of 100 points. I was just giving options/suggestions.
Please, reread the rules regarding Choosing Your Army again - page 108-109 if you are wondering. In particular note allied detachments. In short, you are only allowed ONEHQ/Elites/Fast Attack/Heavy Support and TWO Troops in an allied detachment.
So yes, you ARE effectively telling me to drop a Flyrant for your Prime fantasies. Please, do not presume to advise if you cannot understand even that principle. I seriously don't know what sorts of games you've been playing where allied detachments are just a second force org chart.
Good gravy!
I'm well aware of the rules on allied armies, and the fact that Tyranids can't have allies, and that if you're getting allies they can't be from the same army. So reading it seems kind of ludicrous/irrelevant, and quoting rules that don't apply to a homebrewed tourney seems just as odd.
I misunderstood the wonky rules of the tourney you're playing in.
If you can't play a 4th HQ, don't play the prime, breathe deep and let it go.
PrinceRaven wrote: You ran Old One Eye and a Prime in the same list?
Dakkafices are awesome, they're so versatile and actually out-damage other HS options against a lot of targets they're supposed to be good against.
And since Exorcines and Biovores can be taken out of the FOC, you can have both your dakkafexes and your plasma/spore mine spam.
The only problem is the mandatory warrior brood GW seems to think 90% of all Tyranid ground based formations need.
I really like the Artillery formation. It's seriously such a bonus to a set of units I'd play already. The Biovores need a synapse/flanking escort anyway, so the warriors aren't really a huge hindrance.
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DarkStarSabre wrote: ...Did you seriously miss the simple statement of no formations, but Tyranids are allowed to ally with themselves?
I'm pretty sure that was stated.
There is no good gravy.
There is only literacy.
TL;DR'd half of it. *shrug* Shizzle happens.
And gravy is delicious. Poutine and Loco Moco. Winz.
Also, I'm playing a "no points limit just fill the dual FoC and allies, six formation limit, three lords of war maximum" pseudo-apoc game for a campaign.
Would bringing as many living tides as possible be a douche move?
Some notes about my group: All armies can access all BRB tables for psychic powers, everyone can be battle brothers with everyone else so long as you can handwave it convincingly. You can ally with your own army.
PrinceRaven wrote: You ran Old One Eye and a Prime in the same list?
Dakkafices are awesome, they're so versatile and actually out-damage other HS options against a lot of targets they're supposed to be good against.
And since Exorcines and Biovores can be taken out of the FOC, you can have both your dakkafexes and your plasma/spore mine spam.
The only problem is the mandatory warrior brood GW seems to think 90% of all Tyranid ground based formations need.
I really like the Artillery formation. It's seriously such a bonus to a set of units I'd play already. The Biovores need a synapse/flanking escort anyway, so the warriors aren't really a huge hindrance.
If only the Exorcine's range fit the Biovores a bit better.
DarkStarSabre wrote: ...Did you seriously miss the simple statement of no formations, but Tyranids are allowed to ally with themselves?
Kain wrote: Also, I'm playing a "no points limit just fill the dual FoC and allies, six formation limit, three lords of war maximum" pseudo-apoc game for a campaign.
Would bringing as many living tides as possible be a douche move?
Yes. Still awesome. "Your unit of troops has died.....respawn in 3....2.....1...."
If only the Exorcine's range fit the Biovores a bit better.
It's fire adjustment. You have a different set of threats scaling at 12" intervals. 48, 36, and 24. I use the exo as the hinge to whatever assault formation I'm using as I sweep with whatever force I'm pushing with (stealers/lictors/gaunts). I used to do the same thing with Hive Guard. Oh and I was never afraid of floating spore mines into a combat that was already going on. "I killed 1 SM and 3 Hormagaunts, I'll consider that a net victory."
Kain wrote: I've come to the conclusion that a properly run Mechanized Dark Eldar (especially a Venom heavy one) list is just not possible for a Tyranid list to beat without hard-core list tailoring/dumb luck. Especially since their fliers are so murderous to anything with a toughness value; easily blasting skyblights out of the sky. But honestly, even with BRB powers back they'd still hack us apart like they always have since they got their latest book. Our poor range for shooting makes that range reducing bit of war gear especially brutal, while their speed makes catching them in assault next to impossible and they have the dakka to cut down hordes and the kit to gun down MCs. And even if you do catch them in assault; Dark Eldar units tend to be quite nasty in chopping distance.
Grey Knights are also a brutal match-up. While the loss of BRB powers pending a FAQ has killed off most psychic choir lists (which were the ones that the Grey Knights really screwed over), it turns out that being an army tailored against daemons also makes them very good against us as we're also an army with generally poor saves and AP/short ranged shooting, a mix of fragile cheap units and monstrous creatures, and a lot of psykers.
I'd avoid assaulting Dreadknights with any monstrous creature as they'll probably survive to punch back and instant death it, while their flamers are also nasty to hordes. Tie these up with cheap, fearless cannon fodder, but don't think you can ignore them, they're good against anything in the army. Storm ravens are a pain to bring down, and always try to get the guy with the nemesis thunder hammer out of the squad before assaulting them with a monstrous creature unless you want to watch your Trygon explode with the first hit.
Overall all our problems with these two armies remain from the last book and they remain abysmal match-ups. If their lists are tailored to kill Tyranids (not even your list, just tyranids in general), you may as well not play.
Actually, Tyranid FMC-spam can decimate DE under the right conditions. One of the weaknesses of DE is their anti-air. A dual flyrant/triple-crone Tyranid list is a competitive TAC Tyranid army. If they can get the first turn (and if the deployment isn't Hammer & Anvil), then nids can potentially cripple DE with a hard alpha-strike. Also, I normally run a venomthrope in a bastion so even if they aren't going 1st, you could survive a DE alpha-strike by hiding your FMC's behind the bastion and/or ruins (make sure to place the bastion near ruins) for 2+ cover.
Grey Knights are a mixed bag. I've played both Draigowing and Purifiers against Tyranids and while I did win, it wasn't an easy victory for the knights (my Draigowing would have lost had the game ended on 5!). Grey knights will also have problems against a lot of FMC's. Overall, I think the new bugs match up better against the knights in this edition better than they did back in 5th.
The problem is that the wife's dark eldar usually come with fliers whenever she knows I'm going to be taking FMCs. More than enough shots to ground or kill anything that flies with a wound count. They're extremely brutal.
Without House rules and homebrews, it becomes a game of chicken. If my flyrants and crones can come in last, I can get air superiority. If her planes come in last, I'm gonna get butchered.
As for the GKs, newer lists are mostly focused on Henchmen, Stormravens, DKs, and whatever from elites they think is cool. The Vindicaire rarely shows up against Tyranids as we don't have any particularly stand out wargear to snipe out nor vehicles to crack, but the others can be quite unpleasant.
Common henchmen I face or field are Jokaero to provide long-ranged fire, and Crusaders to tarpit enemies. Acolytes are for when they wish to spend as little points on troops as possible.
Kain wrote: Also, I'm playing a "no points limit just fill the dual FoC and allies, six formation limit, three lords of war maximum" pseudo-apoc game for a campaign.
Would bringing as many living tides as possible be a douche move?
Yes. Still awesome. "Your unit of troops has died.....respawn in 3....2.....1...."
If only the Exorcine's range fit the Biovores a bit better.
It's fire adjustment. You have a different set of threats scaling at 12" intervals. 48, 36, and 24. I use the exo as the hinge to whatever assault formation I'm using as I sweep with whatever force I'm pushing with (stealers/lictors/gaunts). I used to do the same thing with Hive Guard. Oh and I was never afraid of floating spore mines into a combat that was already going on. "I killed 1 SM and 3 Hormagaunts, I'll consider that a net victory."
36'' range from HVCs? I'd really only consider them worthwhile on Harpies who at least get them twin-linked. Carnifexes and Tyrants usually have better things to do with their arms.
So what do we think the ideal loadout is for the Skyblight formation?
To make best use for this and ensure a killpoint game doesn't screw you surely the best bet is to max out the Gargoyles?
To those who have tried it what has been working, what have you been accompanying the Skyblight formations with? It seems fairly obvious to include 3 Flyrants.
Just had my first game at a new club last night and went with a Nidzilla approach, including a Walkrant, 3 Dakkafexes, T-fex, Exocrine and a Trygon Prime. It was a very narrow victory (managed to kill his final troops unit with the last move of the game), and I made a few useful observations:
At various points most of my MC's made it into combat (although not always by choice). The Trygon was by far the star of the show in this category - everything it went near died. Even without the old ScyTal rerolls it outperformed Fexes and the T-Fex thanks to WS5 and lots of base attacks (7 on the charge). It really highlighted that Nid MC's need more than WS3 to perform in melee now they can't reroll anymore. I'll also be taking a Trygon Prime more often - it's a strong synapse unit that is able to pull its weight.
Hormaguants without re-rolls or upgrades are little more than bullet catchers. It took 3 rounds of melee for them to beat a marine combat squad they outnumbered heavily, and they still took a fair few losses during it. I'll probably only use these with the Endless Swarm in future, which is a shame as I really like them (and I have 60 all painted up).
Non-MC synapse is ridiculously vulnerable to just one or two bad saves. I managed to lose a pair of Zoanthropes to just 2 krak missile hits, breaking the centre of my line. Only a last minute Dominion from my HT saved things. My Warriors didn't fare much better despite a Venomthrope to help them. Only the MC synapse survived the game.
Kain wrote: 36'' range from HVCs? I'd really only consider them worthwhile on Harpies who at least get them twin-linked. Carnifexes and Tyrants usually have better things to do with their arms.
I found a HVC on a Walkrant was pretty effective yesterday. It damaged a LRC and blew up a Razorback, plus killed a bunch of Marines. I never rolled a hit on the scatter dice, but BS4 really made the difference in most cases. Only missed once in the whole game, and that was aimed at a single marine on the final turn. The only real weakness was that it was useless for anti-air duties later on, I should have equipped Devourers too.
L0rdF1end wrote: So what do we think the ideal loadout is for the Skyblight formation?
To make best use for this and ensure a killpoint game doesn't screw you surely the best bet is to max out the Gargoyles?
To those who have tried it what has been working, what have you been accompanying the Skyblight formations with? It seems fairly obvious to include 3 Flyrants.
For when I want maximum flying circus, I do indeed go for even more added Flyrants while spending as little on anything else as possible; maybe throw in some crones too.
For my "skyfall" lists (maximum fliers) I first see about getting in as many skyblights as possible to maximize the FMCs, then see about biggening or tooling out the gargoyle broods.
For Apoc, I had a cool idea for a list I call the "Screaming Eclipse" that I turned into a homebrew formation later.
1-3 Harridans.
3-6 Flying Hive tyrants
6-12 Harpies
3-6 Crones
3-6 Shrike broods
9-18 Gargoyle broods
9-18 Skyslasher broods.
Now obviously out of Homebrew you'd want to leave the Skyslashers behind as they're terrible. The Harpies, Flyrants, and Gargs you can run in skyblight swarms, while the shrikes and slashers are for flavor.
Feel free to use Apocalypse formations involving our winged creations.
Now I will say that model spam Tyranid vs model spam Ork games are incredibly fun.
tag8833 wrote: 1) Force Concentration: You are putting all your eggs in one basket. Lose that Tervigon on turn 1 or 2 and you are screwed. Lose it turn 4 and you are still probably losing that game.
Who kills Tervigons? I have had like 3 or 4 Tervigons die since the 5th Edition codex dropped. If you lost your Tervigon you played him wrong, or Iron Arm failed you in 5th Ed.!
Lol a lot of your posts suggest you play in no sort of competitive meta, but this one just confirms it.
Also, no matter how casual your setting, that logic is still terrible.
I resent this.
My meta is actually hypercompetitive.
I have to play fun lists because otherwise I would kill myself from all the Riptides/Wraithknights/Grav Centurions/Bikers/ and Daemons I face. The only "competition" I don't face on a regular basis is any kind of Necron.
When I started this game I played Daemonhunters...THE 40K HARD MODE...and that's where I learned survivability tactics that became a cornerstone of my bug ideologies, personally I don't think it's too hard to believe that I can defend a lone 6 wound T6 creature to great effect.
I've been having some trouble blowing people out with my 'nids. Locals were starting to talk about 'nids as O.P. on the same level as Tau. I'm trying to underpower my list. I ran a stupid underpowered list with genesteelers and ripper swarms, but that was a little too far. My Old one eye list, on the other hand is about perfect to keep most games competitive.
Old One Eye.
Tyranid Prime (Regen, Reaper of Oblimax, Devourer)
I add some shrikes if I need to go up to 2K. Drop 1 Dakkafex and the Prime to drop to 1500. It is a pretty underpowered list that lets me play as competitively as I want while keeping the games close. I'm 2-2 with it so far. Old one Eye is an abysmal Warlord choice. Hive Guard suck, and the way I kitted out the prime is way too expensive.
The Reaper isn't really well suited to the Prime due to the lack of AP2, so it should stay on your Flyrants and Trygon Primes f you're playing with it. And if you go melee, I personally always keep the scytals. The Maws Claws, BS/No LW, adrenal glands, flesh hooks are all good buys for him.
If you want to play, he gets the most use out of the ymgarl factor as well. (I took the Wings off my Parasite for this)
No matter how you kit a Prime...he's too expensive. So If you take one...give him loads of ablative wounds...I like him with horms, for fleet...or outflanking warriors or termagants.
Going with fexes just makes him a giant target for deathstars.
I've been having some trouble blowing people out with my 'nids. Locals were starting to talk about 'nids as O.P. on the same level as Tau. I'm trying to underpower my list.
I don't even understand this statement. What list are you running that people are complaining Nidz are on the same Tier as Tau?
The problem is that the wife's dark eldar usually come with fliers whenever she knows I'm going to be taking FMCs. More than enough shots to ground or kill anything that flies with a wound count. They're extremely brutal.
Without House rules and homebrews, it becomes a game of chicken. If my flyrants and crones can come in last, I can get air superiority. If her planes come in last, I'm gonna get butchered.
As for the GKs, newer lists are mostly focused on Henchmen, Stormravens, DKs, and whatever from elites they think is cool. The Vindicaire rarely shows up against Tyranids as we don't have any particularly stand out wargear to snipe out nor vehicles to crack, but the others can be quite unpleasant.
Common henchmen I face or field are Jokaero to provide long-ranged fire, and Crusaders to tarpit enemies. Acolytes are for when they wish to spend as little points on troops as possible.
That's the case with ALL flyers. In an aerial dogfight, no matter the army, the one going 2nd always has the advantage. However, your flying bugs can survive that if you are willing to running a bastion. With the bastion and venom, if any of your flyers are in terrain within the venom's bubble range, you will be getting 3+ cover against enemy flyers (or 2+ if you are actually hiding behind the bastion). Then on top of that, you may be getting FNP from Catalyst as well if you are lucky enough to roll it. Just don't play as aggressively with them until the enemy flyers come in. Make sure that they stay within the venom's radius of protection.
There really isn't a shortcut against stormravens. You're just going to have to shoot it down with crones and flyrants (or hive guards if you're running them) or just ignore them for the time being and focus on the troops. If they get close enough, then vector-strike them with your crones. But make sure to keep them in venom range until the enemy flyers get into vector-strike range and then let her rip. Also, have some biovores in your TAC list if you play against henchmen a lot.
L0rdF1end wrote: So what do we think the ideal loadout is for the Skyblight formation?
To make best use for this and ensure a killpoint game doesn't screw you surely the best bet is to max out the Gargoyles?
To those who have tried it what has been working, what have you been accompanying the Skyblight formations with? It seems fairly obvious to include 3 Flyrants.
Yeah, I always try to max out on my flyrants if possible. Run 2 crones and 2 harpies if you've got the points. As for gargoyles, I actually don't recommend making them too big. Otherwise, it actually becomes hard to recycle them. Probably 15 is a good size. I wouldn't go more than 20 max per unit. The venom and bastion is a must-take in all of my lists, skyblight included.
L0rdF1end wrote: So what do we think the ideal loadout is for the Skyblight formation?
To make best use for this and ensure a killpoint game doesn't screw you surely the best bet is to max out the Gargoyles?
To those who have tried it what has been working, what have you been accompanying the Skyblight formations with? It seems fairly obvious to include 3 Flyrants.
For when I want maximum flying circus, I do indeed go for even more added Flyrants while spending as little on anything else as possible; maybe throw in some crones too.
For my "skyfall" lists (maximum fliers) I first see about getting in as many skyblights as possible to maximize the FMCs, then see about biggening or tooling out the gargoyle broods.
For Apoc, I had a cool idea for a list I call the "Screaming Eclipse" that I turned into a homebrew formation later.
1-3 Harridans.
3-6 Flying Hive tyrants
6-12 Harpies
3-6 Crones
3-6 Shrike broods
9-18 Gargoyle broods
9-18 Skyslasher broods.
Now obviously out of Homebrew you'd want to leave the Skyslashers behind as they're terrible. The Harpies, Flyrants, and Gargs you can run in skyblight swarms, while the shrikes and slashers are for flavor.
Feel free to use Apocalypse formations involving our winged creations.
Now I will say that model spam Tyranid vs model spam Ork games are incredibly fun.
Now that's a dedicated Tyranid player. 3 Harridans? Wow!
Methinks you should reduce the requirement for harpies down to 3-6 as well. I mean, c'mon....who's going to have 6 harpies as well as 3 crones in their private collections? Also, I recommend dropping the skylasher swarm to 3-18. Who in their right minds will want to own that many skyslashers?
jasper76 wrote: If I could interject a question, are these formations part of the Tyranid codex, or are they apocalypse formations?
Formations such as dataslates (i.e. skyblight, living artillery node) are supplements you can download from GW for a price. It's their way to rip off more money from us.
The formation that Kain mentioned is a homebrew one.
I've been having some trouble blowing people out with my 'nids. Locals were starting to talk about 'nids as O.P. on the same level as Tau. I'm trying to underpower my list.
I don't even understand this statement. What list are you running that people are complaining Nidz are on the same Tier as Tau?
ductvader wrote: The Reaper isn't really well suited to the Prime due to the lack of AP2, so it should stay on your Flyrants and Trygon Primes f you're playing with it. And if you go melee, I personally always keep the scytals. The Maws Claws, BS/No LW, adrenal glands, flesh hooks are all good buys for him.
If you want to play, he gets the most use out of the ymgarl factor as well. (I took the Wings off my Parasite for this)
No matter how you kit a Prime...he's too expensive. So If you take one...give him loads of ablative wounds...I like him with horms, for fleet...or outflanking warriors or termagants.
Going with fexes just makes him a giant target for deathstars.
As I said, part of my list building process was an attempt to nerf myself. That is why I gave my prime a ranged weapon. But the ymgarl factor is an interesting idea.
I start him with a venom, then move him to either Carnifexes or Gaunts. I wouldn't put him with HGaunts because of Bounding Leap, except in the scenario where I'm trying to slingshot him into combat. Sometimes I run the prime with Gargoyles to slingshot him into combat.
If I suspect a reasonable death star I will switch to one of my more competitive lists. 8 Marines + Vulcan doesn't really qualify.
I've been having some trouble blowing people out with my 'nids. Locals were starting to talk about 'nids as O.P. on the same level as Tau. I'm trying to underpower my list.
I don't even understand this statement. What list are you running that people are complaining Nidz are on the same Tier as Tau?
There are several factors going on. 1) I tend to run somewhat unbalanced lists, so I either win big or lose big. 2) I have very good target priority. 3) I play to objectives, while table talking the whole time as if I'm not even aware that it is an objective game. "My Mawlocs are going to eat those crisis suites", then turn 5 I bring them in on Kroot instead to contest an objective.
20 Gargoyles
9 Raveners (RC's, ST's)
6 Shrikes (2 BS + LW, 4 RC's, 6 ST's, 6 Flesh Hooks)
When I go up in points I add Gaunts and a Trygon Prime and lose a zoey or two.
I've also had good success with 3 Mawlocs + venom in a Bastion w/ comms + outflanking devilgaunts.
Sometimes I run 2 Flyrants + 2 Crones for a limited Flying Circus.
I also do well with Living artillery either as part of one of the above lists, or just in a list build around heavy supports.
I've rune the Endless swarm and done well, but those games can be slow and not as much fun.
My success is as much to do about matchups as anything. I still can't really crack Tau gunline (at best I win 15% of the time). IG gunline/mech gave me loads of problems (not sure if that will still be true now that Hydras are nerfed). But I do very well against Demons, Necrons, Orks, Eldar, and especially Marines though Iron Hand's Land Raider spam can be a challenge. Most of my Space Marine opponents are not running Min/Maxed competitive lists. And my only real Eldar opponent likes to run very fluffy lists. I've never seen a Seer Council, Demon Flying Circus, Wave Serpent Spam, White Scars Bikes, or Dark Eldar in any form. So except for being rolled once or twice by an Ovesa Star, I'm not in the most competitive meta. So my 2nd tier competitive 'nids seem pretty OP to many people, that is why I've tried to tone it down.
rigeld2 wrote: OOE can't be your warlord if you have a Prime - he's LD8, Prime is LD10.
I think you are correct. Apparently I've been cheating. That is kinda dumb. In order to make OOE my warlord, I apparently have to take no other HQ's.
I think you are correct. Apparently I've been cheating. That is kinda dumb. In order to make OOE my warlord, I apparently have to take no other HQ's.
Looking at the list you posted, you just need to squeeze in one more Warrior brood to field a Synaptic Swarm. That would let you pull the Prime out of the primary detachment and let OOE be warlord.
That's the case with ALL flyers. In an aerial dogfight, no matter the army, the one going 2nd always has the advantage. However, your flying bugs can survive that if you are willing to running a bastion. With the bastion and venom, if any of your flyers are in terrain within the venom's bubble range, you will be getting 3+ cover against enemy flyers (or 2+ if you are actually hiding behind the bastion). Then on top of that, you may be getting FNP from Catalyst as well if you are lucky enough to roll it. Just don't play as aggressively with them until the enemy flyers come in. Make sure that they stay within the venom's radius of protection.
This - I've found that the Flyrants and Crones can't be too aggressive until your enemy brings his own flyers in. To be perfectly honest, keeping them back a few turns works out more beneficial for 'nids as well as they'll have likely advanced some of their infantry or elites forward and with a well placed Onslaught or two you can threaten them with multiple threats and just overwhelm them for target priority.
Aggressive Flyrants and Crones will suffer if you run out ahead...but if you wait a few turns, the enemy flyers come in and then everything surges forward at once it's heaps better.
Not a lot of enemies can cope with 4 flyers on their lines along with 1-2 other big MCs (or broods) that you choose to Onslaught forward that turn. I've seriously found that Tyranids benefit more from target saturation than most other armies - considering we already tend to duplicate broods it adds further survivability....
Hormaguants without re-rolls or upgrades are little more than bullet catchers. It took 3 rounds of melee for them to beat a marine combat squad they outnumbered heavily, and they still took a fair few losses during it. I'll probably only use these with the Endless Swarm in future, which is a shame as I really like them (and I have 60 all painted up).
Just out of interest, are they just regular Hormagaunts, or did you add any biomorphs?
Tomorrow i'm gonna play a match at 1750 against chaos/demons army (dunno the composition but that's what he usually plays)
Spoiler:
New Roster (1750pts)
0pt Tyranids 6th Ed (2014) v5 Roster (Primary Detachment)
Tyranids 6th Ed (2014) v5 (Primary Detachment) Selections:
HQ (460pts)
Hive Tyrant (230pts) (Codex: Tyranids p86)
Psyker (Mastery Level 2), Shadow in the Warp, Synapse Creature
2x Twin-Linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms (30pts), Wings (35pts)
Hive Tyrant (230pts) (Codex: Tyranids p86)
Psyker (Mastery Level 2), Shadow in the Warp, Synapse Creature
2x Twin-Linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms (30pts), Wings (35pts)
Elites (95pts)
Lictor Brood (50pts) (Codex: Tyranids p88)
Lictor (50pts)
Deep Strike, Fear, Fleet, Hit and Run, Infiltrate, Instinctive Behaviour - Lurk, Move Through Cover, Pheromone Trail, Stealth, Very Bulky
Flesh Hooks, Rending Claws, Scything Talons
Venomthrope Brood (45pts) (Codex: Tyranids p88)
Venomthrope (45pts)
Instinctive Behaviour - Lurk, Poisoned (2+), Shrouded, Spore Cloud, Very Bulky
Lash Whips, Toxic Miasma
Troops (190pts)
Termagant Brood (40pts) (Codex: Tyranids p91)
10x Fleshborer, 10x Termagant (40pts)
Termagant Brood (40pts) (Codex: Tyranids p91)
10x Fleshborer, 10x Termagant (40pts)
Tyranid Warrior Brood (110pts) (Codex: Tyranids p90)
Tyranid Warrior (35pts)
Shadow in the Warp, Synapse Creature
Deathspitter (5pts), Scything Talons
Tyranid Warrior (35pts)
Shadow in the Warp, Synapse Creature
Deathspitter (5pts), Scything Talons
Tyranid Warrior with heavy weapon (40pts)
Shadow in the Warp, Synapse Creature
Barbed Strangler (10pts), Scything Talons
Fast Attack (425pts)
Harpy (140pts) (Codex: Tyranids p93)
Fearless, Instinctive Behaviour - Lurk, Living Bomb (Spore Mines Only), Sonic Screech
Scything Talons, Spore Mine Cysts, Twin-linked Heavy Venom Cannon (5pts)
Hive Crone (165pts)
Fearless, Instinctive Behaviour - Feed, Raking Strike
Drool Cannon, Stinger Salvo (10pts), 4x Tentaclids
Ravener Brood (120pts) (Codex: Tyranids p92)
Ravener (40pts)
Deep Strike, Instinctive Behaviour - Feed, Very Bulky
Devourer (5pts), Rending Claws (5pts), Scything Talons
Ravener (40pts)
Deep Strike, Instinctive Behaviour - Feed, Very Bulky
Devourer (5pts), Rending Claws (5pts), Scything Talons
Ravener (40pts)
Deep Strike, Instinctive Behaviour - Feed, Very Bulky
Devourer (5pts), Rending Claws (5pts), Scything Talons
Heavy Support (580pts)
Biovore Brood (120pts) (Codex: Tyranids p94)
3x Biovore (120pts)
Instinctive Behaviour - Hunt, Living Bomb (Spore Mines Only), Very Bulky
3x Spore mine launcher
Exocrine (170pts)
Fearless, Instinctive Behaviour - Hunt, Symbiotic Targeting
Bio-Plasmic Cannon, Scything Talons
Trygon Prime (290pts) (Codex: Tyranids p95)
Deep Strike, Fearless, Fleet, Instinctive Behaviour - Feed, Subterranean Assault
Adrenal Glands (15pts), Bio-electric Pulse with Containment Spines, Scything Talons, The Reaper of Obliterax (45pts)
with the artillery node obviously.....
i think it's gonna be fun
the idea is:
i camp an objective with warriors and biovores and maybe the termagants
i'll rush the exocrine into firing range (who cares of rerolls from LAN)
i'll start with both tyrant and the harpy in game (to use powers asap and the harpy to shoot at 36 range)
the venomthrope and the gants are situationals it depends on mission terrain and deploy i could use them to babysit an objective or meatshield for the exocrine the venomthrope acts as support where needed
crone starts in reserve her mission are dragons
lictor raveners and prime in reserve
the idea (with some luck) is to deliver a strike force into enemy's heart
if i can place trigon prime with glands and reaper with raveners as a shield i think i can bring pain!
Hormaguants without re-rolls or upgrades are little more than bullet catchers. It took 3 rounds of melee for them to beat a marine combat squad they outnumbered heavily, and they still took a fair few losses during it. I'll probably only use these with the Endless Swarm in future, which is a shame as I really like them (and I have 60 all painted up).
Just out of interest, are they just regular Hormagaunts, or did you add any biomorphs?
They were just vanilla, I can never justify the cost of the upgrades on such easy-to-kill models. I think it would only be worthwhile on an Endless Swarm, when you at least have a shot to use those points again.
Hormaguants without re-rolls or upgrades are little more than bullet catchers. It took 3 rounds of melee for them to beat a marine combat squad they outnumbered heavily, and they still took a fair few losses during it. I'll probably only use these with the Endless Swarm in future, which is a shame as I really like them (and I have 60 all painted up).
Just out of interest, are they just regular Hormagaunts, or did you add any biomorphs?
They were just vanilla, I can never justify the cost of the upgrades on such easy-to-kill models. I think it would only be worthwhile on an Endless Swarm, when you at least have a shot to use those points again.
I take adrenal glands on my hormagaunts so they stay fairly cheap but can potentially damage most vehicles. I do the same on gargoyles but it typically benefits them more since they don't normally have fleet.
tag8833 wrote: There are several factors going on. 1) I tend to run somewhat unbalanced lists, so I either win big or lose big.
"Win big or lose big" is Tyranids in a nutshell. We're so reliant on key units that if your opponent takes them out it all goes rapidly downhill.
rigeld2 wrote: OOE can't be your warlord if you have a Prime - he's LD8, Prime is LD10.
I think you are correct. Apparently I've been cheating. That is kinda dumb. In order to make OOE my warlord, I apparently have to take no other HQ's.
This was why I questioned running both in the same list, as the only Tyranid HQ we can run with Old One Eye and still keep it as our Warlord is a Tervigon.
On a different note, has anyone tried out a CC focused flyrant and had any success? I was thinking about trying one out in a small 1000 pt game.
The build I was thinking of was:
Flyrant + Reaper + regen + AG.
Expensive but it meant the flyrant was S8 on the charge so no need to smash to ID most opponents. Then Regen was for added survivability.
shamroll wrote: On a different note, has anyone tried out a CC focused flyrant and had any success? I was thinking about trying one out in a small 1000 pt game.
The build I was thinking of was:
Flyrant + Reaper + regen + AG.
Expensive but it meant the flyrant was S8 on the charge so no need to smash to ID most opponents. Then Regen was for added survivability.
Lose regen and you have the standard reaper tyrant.
Flyrants tend to die in one go..,regen is best left to tyrranos and the ocassional fex(es)
Kain wrote: I've come to the conclusion that a properly run Mechanized Dark Eldar (especially a Venom heavy one) list is just not possible for a Tyranid list to beat without hard-core list tailoring/dumb luck. Especially since their fliers are so murderous to anything with a toughness value; easily blasting skyblights out of the sky. But honestly, even with BRB powers back they'd still hack us apart like they always have since they got their latest book. Our poor range for shooting makes that range reducing bit of war gear especially brutal, while their speed makes catching them in assault next to impossible and they have the dakka to cut down hordes and the kit to gun down MCs. And even if you do catch them in assault; Dark Eldar units tend to be quite nasty in chopping distance.
Grey Knights are also a brutal match-up. While the loss of BRB powers pending a FAQ has killed off most psychic choir lists (which were the ones that the Grey Knights really screwed over), it turns out that being an army tailored against daemons also makes them very good against us as we're also an army with generally poor saves and AP/short ranged shooting, a mix of fragile cheap units and monstrous creatures, and a lot of psykers.
I'd avoid assaulting Dreadknights with any monstrous creature as they'll probably survive to punch back and instant death it, while their flamers are also nasty to hordes. Tie these up with cheap, fearless cannon fodder, but don't think you can ignore them, they're good against anything in the army. Storm ravens are a pain to bring down, and always try to get the guy with the nemesis thunder hammer out of the squad before assaulting them with a monstrous creature unless you want to watch your Trygon explode with the first hit.
Overall all our problems with these two armies remain from the last book and they remain abysmal match-ups. If their lists are tailored to kill Tyranids (not even your list, just tyranids in general), you may as well not play.
Actually, Tyranid FMC-spam can decimate DE under the right conditions. One of the weaknesses of DE is their anti-air. A dual flyrant/triple-crone Tyranid list is a competitive TAC Tyranid army. If they can get the first turn (and if the deployment isn't Hammer & Anvil), then nids can potentially cripple DE with a hard alpha-strike. Also, I normally run a venomthrope in a bastion so even if they aren't going 1st, you could survive a DE alpha-strike by hiding your FMC's behind the bastion and/or ruins (make sure to place the bastion near ruins) for 2+ cover.
Grey Knights are a mixed bag. I've played both Draigowing and Purifiers against Tyranids and while I did win, it wasn't an easy victory for the knights (my Draigowing would have lost had the game ended on 5!). Grey knights will also have problems against a lot of FMC's. Overall, I think the new bugs match up better against the knights in this edition better than they did back in 5th.
The problem is that the wife's dark eldar usually come with fliers whenever she knows I'm going to be taking FMCs. More than enough shots to ground or kill anything that flies with a wound count. They're extremely brutal.
Without House rules and homebrews, it becomes a game of chicken. If my flyrants and crones can come in last, I can get air superiority. If her planes come in last, I'm gonna get butchered.
As for the GKs, newer lists are mostly focused on Henchmen, Stormravens, DKs, and whatever from elites they think is cool. The Vindicaire rarely shows up against Tyranids as we don't have any particularly stand out wargear to snipe out nor vehicles to crack, but the others can be quite unpleasant.
Common henchmen I face or field are Jokaero to provide long-ranged fire, and Crusaders to tarpit enemies. Acolytes are for when they wish to spend as little points on troops as possible.
Kain wrote: Also, I'm playing a "no points limit just fill the dual FoC and allies, six formation limit, three lords of war maximum" pseudo-apoc game for a campaign.
Would bringing as many living tides as possible be a douche move?
Yes. Still awesome. "Your unit of troops has died.....respawn in 3....2.....1...."
If only the Exorcine's range fit the Biovores a bit better.
It's fire adjustment. You have a different set of threats scaling at 12" intervals. 48, 36, and 24. I use the exo as the hinge to whatever assault formation I'm using as I sweep with whatever force I'm pushing with (stealers/lictors/gaunts). I used to do the same thing with Hive Guard. Oh and I was never afraid of floating spore mines into a combat that was already going on. "I killed 1 SM and 3 Hormagaunts, I'll consider that a net victory."
36'' range from HVCs? I'd really only consider them worthwhile on Harpies who at least get them twin-linked. Carnifexes and Tyrants usually have better things to do with their arms.
36" range from the BS on the warrior brood. Gives another source of pinning. Hammer and anvil and all that jazz. Haven't run VC's or HVC's since.....I don't remember. It was about the time they changed them to be "VC's can only glance". 4th ed?
Your wife trolls you with Razorwings.....cue Nelson's "Ha Ha".
shamroll wrote:On a different note, has anyone tried out a CC focused flyrant and had any success? I was thinking about trying one out in a small 1000 pt game.
The build I was thinking of was:
Flyrant + Reaper + regen + AG.
Expensive but it meant the flyrant was S8 on the charge so no need to smash to ID most opponents. Then Regen was for added survivability.
He's not bad, the only issue is that the bonuses you get from running 12 twin linked shots outweighs the (comparatively) smaller bonuses that the extra melee equipment provides. Especially since you have access to some of the stronger melee based models in the game. Deathleaper/Lictors/Broodlords/Trygons/Mawlocs. Is more melee what you really need?
Having a spouse who shares the majority of your interests and is as passionate about them as you are is great.
She's also my most frequent opponent since I met her back when we were kids in 2e. We know each other's playstyles down to a T and share our collections.
And of course we're a very frequent team in doubles games.
I mostly run Tyranids, Necrons, Orks, and Chaos/Imperial armies in order of preference.
She mostly runs Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, Imperial, and Chaos armies in that order of preference.
But as I said, ours is a joint collection, made out of what we have acquired over years and having too much disposable income/well to do parents who liked their kids playing a social and artistic game.
I particularly have fun with re-enacting the battle of Iyanden. Just grab a bunch of nid and eldar playing buddies and run a massive apocalypse battle (although getting Yriel to survive and have his duel with the Hive Tyrant is a pain).
My friends also have Octarius war campaigns, run on private sessions of vassal, in person, and on Dawn of War. (Titanium wars, Codex, or Ultimate Apocalypse mods required in addition to the Tyranid mod, though sometimes DoW II is used too).
And I'll repeat, Orks vs Tyranids is so much fun in apoc.
She's also my most frequent opponent since I met her back when we were kids in 2e. We know each other's playstyles down to a T and share our collections.
And of course we're a very frequent team in doubles games.
I mostly run Tyranids, Necrons, Orks, and Chaos/Imperial armies in order of preference.
She mostly runs Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, Imperial, and Chaos armies in that order of preference.
But as I said, ours is a joint collection, made out of what we have acquired over years and having too much disposable income/well to do parents who liked their kids playing a social and artistic game.
OK, now you're super-bragging. Is that what they teach you where you come from!?
I particularly have fun with re-enacting the battle of Iyanden. Just grab a bunch of nid and eldar playing buddies and run a massive apocalypse battle (although getting Yriel to survive and have his duel with the Hive Tyrant is a pain).
My friends also have Octarius war campaigns, run on private sessions of vassal, in person, and on Dawn of War. (Titanium wars, Codex, or Ultimate Apocalypse mods required in addition to the Tyranid mod, though sometimes DoW II is used too).
And I'll repeat, Orks vs Tyranids is so much fun in apoc.
I'm not saying that EVERYONE is envious......but I imagine most are.
Real talk though, that's awesome. I can't get the Mrs. [aka Boss Funnpartz] to quite delve into an army yet. As it stands I might have her convinced to take up a brush. I tend to collect random mini's that I think are particularly well sculpted/look cool, even if they don't fit into an army (Maugen-Ra, Chaos Terminators, Drazhar, etc.) I'll have her paint on those. In the end, if nothing else, I'll make it like like that test they give to the Dahli Lama, where he picks an item from a selection and if he picks the right one, he wins! Same thing, except she can pick a favorite model and play that army. Well, it's similar anyway.
Sorta.
I also got a bunch of buddies in a group that get into all the games in the 40K universe. I got a rogue trader group, and we played the crap out of Last Stand in DoW2, (fantastic btw) among other things. Currently though, I've moved quite a bit away from home for a little while, so I'm on hiatus. Sad.
Anywho. To change the subject. How much "plays as" is too much? If I've got a board of Armorcast Exocrines "plays as" T-fex, 2nd edition Tyrants "plays as" Tyranid Primes, and 3 different models of Lictor? Is that too convoluted for Tourney play? I know in casual no one cares.
They were just vanilla, I can never justify the cost of the upgrades on such easy-to-kill models. I think it would only be worthwhile on an Endless Swarm, when you at least have a shot to use those points again.
I take adrenal glands on my hormagaunts so they stay fairly cheap but can potentially damage most vehicles. I do the same on gargoyles but it typically benefits them more since they don't normally have fleet.
While I love the idea of killing transports with Hormas/Gargoyles (especially the trick of surrounding it so you kill the passengers too), in practice I rarely have any trouble doing it at range with HVC or Devourers before they get close. That main issue guants have is going up against Walkers or MC's, where AG are useless. Once any AV10 transports are down, Hormagaunts are of really limited use aside from scoring. You need decent numbers of them to overcome the lack of grenades/poison/re-rolls. A brood of ~15 or less isn't really much threat to anything.
That's the case with ALL flyers. In an aerial dogfight, no matter the army, the one going 2nd always has the advantage. However, your flying bugs can survive that if you are willing to running a bastion. With the bastion and venom, if any of your flyers are in terrain within the venom's bubble range, you will be getting 3+ cover against enemy flyers (or 2+ if you are actually hiding behind the bastion). Then on top of that, you may be getting FNP from Catalyst as well if you are lucky enough to roll it. Just don't play as aggressively with them until the enemy flyers come in. Make sure that they stay within the venom's radius of protection.
This - I've found that the Flyrants and Crones can't be too aggressive until your enemy brings his own flyers in. To be perfectly honest, keeping them back a few turns works out more beneficial for 'nids as well as they'll have likely advanced some of their infantry or elites forward and with a well placed Onslaught or two you can threaten them with multiple threats and just overwhelm them for target priority.
Aggressive Flyrants and Crones will suffer if you run out ahead...but if you wait a few turns, the enemy flyers come in and then everything surges forward at once it's heaps better.
Not a lot of enemies can cope with 4 flyers on their lines along with 1-2 other big MCs (or broods) that you choose to Onslaught forward that turn. I've seriously found that Tyranids benefit more from target saturation than most other armies - considering we already tend to duplicate broods it adds further survivability....
There's a tactic here that can be coupled nicely when taking a Bastion and a Comms Relay.
If you are forced to go first, for example, perhaps the opponent sees the Comms Relay and figures you'll be bringing everything in turn two anyways (Or he simply wants to contest objectives late game), so your opponent thinks ill go second to get the shots off with my flyers as his Crones will come in turn 2.
What I mean is, if you are forced to go first you can simply start your Crones on the board (this is where a venomthrope with a Bastion really helps to mitigate damage received).
On your Turn 1 you can swoop your Crones into range of your venom bubble or if you feel that damage coming back at you on his turn will be minimal you can go out on the attack.
On your second turn, rather than risking the chance of his flyers causing problems you can simply fly your crones off the board. And then bingo! you have the advantage and get your shots off with your Crones on his flyers before he can shoot back.
Thus putting your Crones in relative safety now that his best skyfire is mitigated.
One other thing to add which isn't related to the above subject is that winning a game of 40k is not about killing everything. I see it so many times where a player rushes the enemy first turn trying to get the upper hand and then receives a crap load of damage in return on his opponents turn. This probably applies to Tyranids more than any other army but it applies to all armies in general. You don't need to kill stuff to win. Killing stuff is part of the process and part of the game turns.
What will actually win you games is giving the opponent enough to worry about that will take him 5 turns to deal with, so durability actually is more of a requirement than killy units. Clearly having both is the perfect list.
If you can keep him busy for 5 turns, that allows you to score your home objective and contest his.
If you have good durability there is a good chance you'll take first blood. If you sacrifice your flyers (flyrants in this case as clearly Crones are to high up to contest) early then you can not easily contest objectives.
She's also my most frequent opponent since I met her back when we were kids in 2e. We know each other's playstyles down to a T and share our collections.
And of course we're a very frequent team in doubles games.
Real talk though, that's awesome. I can't get the Mrs. [aka Boss Funnpartz] to quite delve into an army yet. As it stands I might have her convinced to take up a brush. I tend to collect random mini's that I think are particularly well sculpted/look cool, even if they don't fit into an army (Maugen-Ra, Chaos Terminators, Drazhar, etc.) I'll have her paint on those. In the end, if nothing else, I'll make it like like that test they give to the Dahli Lama, where he picks an item from a selection and if he picks the right one, he wins! Same thing, except she can pick a favorite model and play that army. Well, it's similar anyway.
Sorta.
Ok, now who's bragging? I can't even get my Mrs to do eve that!
Anywho. To change the subject. How much "plays as" is too much? If I've got a board of Armorcast Exocrines "plays as" T-fex, 2nd edition Tyrants "plays as" Tyranid Primes, and 3 different models of Lictor? Is that too convoluted for Tourney play? I know in casual no one cares.
It really depends on your group. If they don't mind, then you're good. For a tourney, I suggest you show the TO the models and get his approval.
rigeld2 wrote: I doubt you'll ever get gruff on the Tyrant/Primes. 3 different models of Lictor are fine - as long as they're all Lictors.
Exocrine as TFex is the only "iffy" one imo... and only because I'm not sure of the footprint difference between the two.
Even then if you base it right you probably can get away with it, if you don't have a new Exocrine in your list, as having an Armoucast Exocrine as a T-fex and a new model Exocrine as an Exocrine it could get confusing,
Armor cast exocrines are great for terrain IMO. They look like surface to orbit batteries like those butt beetles role in the straship troopers movie. It always looked like it couldn't move in game to me Slug feet just aren't that fast!
shamroll wrote: On a different note, has anyone tried out a CC focused flyrant and had any success? I was thinking about trying one out in a small 1000 pt game.
The build I was thinking of was:
Flyrant + Reaper + regen + AG.
Expensive but it meant the flyrant was S8 on the charge so no need to smash to ID most opponents. Then Regen was for added survivability.
I use a Winged assasain, at all point levels. For low points I would build it like so....LW/BS, toxin, Thorax hive (Rending Beetles is a "all targets" build, Electro bugs if you expect vehicle problems, desicator if you expect mostly/all infantry. I don't use DL, because I have a Tyranofex for infantry destruction )
I don't know id Regen is a good buy for a 4 Wound figure, the only place I'd reccomend it is on a Tyrannofex, or a Big Wormy.
Bone Swords already "instant Kill" when you roll a 6 to wound, so I depend on that rather than doubling toughness, the Toxin lets you re-roll most of the time, so you get extra chances to roll a six
Adrenal is a good buy for a CC focused critter, but I'd take Toxin first (And its cheaper ) I believe Reaper gives re-rolls though, so not an issue, except vs super tough targets (looking at you Wraith dude!) I know one regular poster here uses Reaper for a Winged assasain, so you might check that out.
Late entry: Shoot if you want to drop a bunch of points why not drop Regen, and spend 10 extra for Ymgarl? That should add a little extra awesome to the mix
Automatically Appended Next Post: I was doodling out a list of Carnifex builds, I don't much use them myself, because my base Heavy list is Tyrannofex, Big Wormy (trygo Prime), and Mawloc.
What other builds have I overlooked? And why do you like them?
Dakkafex: Twin Brain Leeches the "gold standard" 150 per
Screamer Killer: Vanilla Fex with Bioplasma, 140 per Maybe its sentiment, but I like this build. Screamer Killer expresso: as above, Adrenals 155 per
Ripper Screamer: as above, Crushing Claws replace Adrenal 155
Gunfex: Brain Leeches, Strangle Cannon 155, 160(?) if you go Venom
You can toss a little extra on any to add "grenade equiv" carapace spines(?) 5 pts?
What "classic" build did I miss? (and don't say twin linked Deathspitters )
I think the stock fex is a staple or stock + adrenals...the bio plasma is too expensive for people who just want to run three truck sized creatures at something.
And then it's not in our book but the FW Stone Crusher is fairly well known.
And then it's not in our book but the FW Stone Crusher is fairly well known.
2+ Armor IWND Fex....ah yes...
According to the Forge World open day thread, the new edition of IA4 (likely coming in the summer) will remove the 2+ save from the Stonecrusher. Apparently they've replaced it with a special rule forcing -1 on To Wound rolls. If that works on poison too it could be even better.
And then it's not in our book but the FW Stone Crusher is fairly well known.
2+ Armor IWND Fex....ah yes...
According to the Forge World open day thread, the new edition of IA4 (likely coming in the summer) will remove the 2+ save from the Stonecrusher. Apparently they've replaced it with a special rule forcing -1 on To Wound rolls. If that works on poison too it could be even better.
And then it's not in our book but the FW Stone Crusher is fairly well known.
2+ Armor IWND Fex....ah yes...
According to the Forge World open day thread, the new edition of IA4 (likely coming in the summer) will remove the 2+ save from the Stonecrusher. Apparently they've replaced it with a special rule forcing -1 on To Wound rolls. If that works on poison too it could be even better.
Awww not the last Carnifex to be krak missile proof in the entire game!
And then it's not in our book but the FW Stone Crusher is fairly well known.
2+ Armor IWND Fex....ah yes...
According to the Forge World open day thread, the new edition of IA4 (likely coming in the summer) will remove the 2+ save from the Stonecrusher. Apparently they've replaced it with a special rule forcing -1 on To Wound rolls. If that works on poison too it could be even better.
More than likely the rule will just be vague enough that it could work on poison, but not explicitly state it- requiring a heated YMDC thread.
And then it's not in our book but the FW Stone Crusher is fairly well known.
2+ Armor IWND Fex....ah yes...
According to the Forge World open day thread, the new edition of IA4 (likely coming in the summer) will remove the 2+ save from the Stonecrusher. Apparently they've replaced it with a special rule forcing -1 on To Wound rolls. If that works on poison too it could be even better.
More than likely the rule will just be vague enough that it could work on poison, but not explicitly state it- requiring a heated YMDC thread.
If only there were people smart enough to forsee this problem!
But seriously, I hope he's good because the model is too good to tear apart...he'll just become a show piece.
And then it's not in our book but the FW Stone Crusher is fairly well known.
2+ Armor IWND Fex....ah yes...
According to the Forge World open day thread, the new edition of IA4 (likely coming in the summer) will remove the 2+ save from the Stonecrusher. Apparently they've replaced it with a special rule forcing -1 on To Wound rolls. If that works on poison too it could be even better.
More than likely the rule will just be vague enough that it could work on poison, but not explicitly state it- requiring a heated YMDC thread.
If only there were people smart enough to forsee this problem!
But seriously, I hope he's good because the model is too good to tear apart...he'll just become a show piece.
YMDC ... you will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.
rigeld2 wrote: I doubt you'll ever get gruff on the Tyrant/Primes. 3 different models of Lictor are fine - as long as they're all Lictors.
Exocrine as TFex is the only "iffy" one imo... and only because I'm not sure of the footprint difference between the two.
Even then if you base it right you probably can get away with it, if you don't have a new Exocrine in your list, as having an Armoucast Exocrine as a T-fex and a new model Exocrine as an Exocrine it could get confusing,
It's never been an issue at the local club. The relevant questions are always asked? "Whats its save? Does it kill TEQ's or flame on?" I'm wondering how strict the rules at big games are. Adepticon and the like.
And then it's not in our book but the FW Stone Crusher is fairly well known.
2+ Armor IWND Fex....ah yes...
According to the Forge World open day thread, the new edition of IA4 (likely coming in the summer) will remove the 2+ save from the Stonecrusher. Apparently they've replaced it with a special rule forcing -1 on To Wound rolls. If that works on poison too it could be even better.
More than likely the rule will just be vague enough that it could work on poison, but not explicitly state it- requiring a heated YMDC thread.
Stone crushers need......speed......so......bad.....
They're cheap and all, but the point of the dakkafex is that it increases its threat range by a MASSIVE amount AND gives versatility. if you caould fleet him, or wings him, or SOMETHING, he'd be fantastic. As it is, he is a good escort for things, and he's cheap. He misses drop pods real bad.....Curse you Cruddace!
rigeld2 wrote: I doubt you'll ever get gruff on the Tyrant/Primes. 3 different models of Lictor are fine - as long as they're all Lictors.
Exocrine as TFex is the only "iffy" one imo... and only because I'm not sure of the footprint difference between the two.
Even then if you base it right you probably can get away with it, if you don't have a new Exocrine in your list, as having an Armoucast Exocrine as a T-fex and a new model Exocrine as an Exocrine it could get confusing,
It's never been an issue at the local club. The relevant questions are always asked? "Whats its save? Does it kill TEQ's or flame on?" I'm wondering how strict the rules at big games are. Adepticon and the like.
Less strict than many make them out to be.
Does it look cool? It's in. Are you a jerk and abusing the way it's modeled? It's out.
And then it's not in our book but the FW Stone Crusher is fairly well known.
2+ Armor IWND Fex....ah yes...
According to the Forge World open day thread, the new edition of IA4 (likely coming in the summer) will remove the 2+ save from the Stonecrusher. Apparently they've replaced it with a special rule forcing -1 on To Wound rolls. If that works on poison too it could be even better.
I got a look at the final copy of the updated book, which was being sent to printers after the event.
His 2+ is gone! the authors reasoning was he felt that a 2+ was kind of pointless because there was so much that could ignore it nowadays. So he changed to a rule that forces any wound roll to suffer a -1 penalty on its roll. Also the stonecrusher gets D3+1 hammer of wrath at AP2 and one of its weapons cause instant death but I can't remember which. I also can't recall seeing it be able to brood up.
And then it's not in our book but the FW Stone Crusher is fairly well known.
2+ Armor IWND Fex....ah yes...
According to the Forge World open day thread, the new edition of IA4 (likely coming in the summer) will remove the 2+ save from the Stonecrusher. Apparently they've replaced it with a special rule forcing -1 on To Wound rolls. If that works on poison too it could be even better.
I got a look at the final copy of the updated book, which was being sent to printers after the event.
His 2+ is gone! the authors reasoning was he felt that a 2+ was kind of pointless because there was so much that could ignore it nowadays. So he changed to a rule that forces any wound roll to suffer a -1 penalty on its roll. Also the stonecrusher gets D3+1 hammer of wrath at AP2 and one of its weapons cause instant death but I can't remember which. I also can't recall seeing it be able to brood up.
And then it's not in our book but the FW Stone Crusher is fairly well known.
2+ Armor IWND Fex....ah yes...
According to the Forge World open day thread, the new edition of IA4 (likely coming in the summer) will remove the 2+ save from the Stonecrusher. Apparently they've replaced it with a special rule forcing -1 on To Wound rolls. If that works on poison too it could be even better.
I got a look at the final copy of the updated book, which was being sent to printers after the event.
His 2+ is gone! the authors reasoning was he felt that a 2+ was kind of pointless because there was so much that could ignore it nowadays. So he changed to a rule that forces any wound roll to suffer a -1 penalty on its roll. Also the stonecrusher gets D3+1 hammer of wrath at AP2 and one of its weapons cause instant death but I can't remember which. I also can't recall seeing it be able to brood up.
...Aww. now he's Krak missile food.
Effectively he's +1 Toughness. I don't see it as a major setback. He's better against poison and small arms fire now. Worse against high armor pen stuff. Usually those weapons have a low fire rate. Makes regen (I can't remember if he can buy it) and IWND more effective. I don't see it as a complete nerfing. Depends on his points cost. 1D3+1 HoW attacks is much more impressive to look at though. His role is unchanged for the most part.
rigeld2 wrote: I doubt you'll ever get gruff on the Tyrant/Primes. 3 different models of Lictor are fine - as long as they're all Lictors.
Exocrine as TFex is the only "iffy" one imo... and only because I'm not sure of the footprint difference between the two.
Even then if you base it right you probably can get away with it, if you don't have a new Exocrine in your list, as having an Armoucast Exocrine as a T-fex and a new model Exocrine as an Exocrine it could get confusing,
This is my Exocrine/Fex conversion.
Why? Because I dont like a tyranid with a giant plasma shooting penis sticking out of it.
And then it's not in our book but the FW Stone Crusher is fairly well known.
2+ Armor IWND Fex....ah yes...
According to the Forge World open day thread, the new edition of IA4 (likely coming in the summer) will remove the 2+ save from the Stonecrusher. Apparently they've replaced it with a special rule forcing -1 on To Wound rolls. If that works on poison too it could be even better.
I got a look at the final copy of the updated book, which was being sent to printers after the event.
His 2+ is gone! the authors reasoning was he felt that a 2+ was kind of pointless because there was so much that could ignore it nowadays. So he changed to a rule that forces any wound roll to suffer a -1 penalty on its roll. Also the stonecrusher gets D3+1 hammer of wrath at AP2 and one of its weapons cause instant death but I can't remember which. I also can't recall seeing it be able to brood up.
So if you have an in to the business. Maybe you can answer my complicated question? Is it more profitable for sculpting companies to sell whole models? Or sell bases of models and then separate accessories.
My example would be warriors vs something like the tyrant kit. Like a basic warriors kit, a warrior weapon kit, a warrior wings kit (for shrikes), and a warrior prime conversion kit. Sold separately, but fit together A LA Legos.
Or is it more optimal to make an all purpose kit. A la the Hive Tyrant/Winged Tyrant/Swarmlord being one (relatively expensive) box, but have all the accessories.
I understand the MOST profitable would probably be something like a Separate kit for all those things. But honestly, usually all that does is open the market for conversions and people splitting kits and selling them 3rd party piecemeal, and it's kind of a jerk move in general.
rigeld2 wrote: I doubt you'll ever get gruff on the Tyrant/Primes. 3 different models of Lictor are fine - as long as they're all Lictors.
Exocrine as TFex is the only "iffy" one imo... and only because I'm not sure of the footprint difference between the two.
Even then if you base it right you probably can get away with it, if you don't have a new Exocrine in your list, as having an Armoucast Exocrine as a T-fex and a new model Exocrine as an Exocrine it could get confusing,
This is my Exocrine/Fex conversion.
Why? Because I dont like a tyranid with a giant plasma shooting penis sticking out of it.
Hey, I like compensating for.....things.....
I like the T-fex model. It's baller. It doesn't look like a piece of heavy artillery though. The exocrine looks like a Biovore on steriods. Which is what I think artillery should look like. The models for all the T-fex weapons are just not impressive at all. The rupture cannon is barely bigger than a venom cannon. But it's at the highest strength level and the longest range gun in our aresenal? :/
rigeld2 wrote: I doubt you'll ever get gruff on the Tyrant/Primes. 3 different models of Lictor are fine - as long as they're all Lictors.
Exocrine as TFex is the only "iffy" one imo... and only because I'm not sure of the footprint difference between the two.
Even then if you base it right you probably can get away with it, if you don't have a new Exocrine in your list, as having an Armoucast Exocrine as a T-fex and a new model Exocrine as an Exocrine it could get confusing,
This is my Exocrine/Fex conversion.
Why? Because I dont like a tyranid with a giant plasma shooting penis sticking out of it.
Very nice!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ductvader wrote: I think the stock fex is a staple or stock + adrenals...the bio plasma is too expensive for people who just want to run three truck sized creatures at something.
And then it's not in our book but the FW Stone Crusher is fairly well known.
2+ Armor IWND Fex....ah yes...
Doh! Vanilla fex, no toppings Thanx, as I said I don't much use them myself...
I'm loving both of those lists! Maybe it's just because I'm a ravener fanatic.
I really want to fit an endless swarm in with this somehow and take advantage of trygon tunnels.... no clue how to go about it though
Not to be thick, but how does this list deal with Armor and Flyers? I love raveners as much as the next guy. And could you sub Genestealers with adrenals for Gaunts? (Tougher, more utility, etc)
rigeld2 wrote: I doubt you'll ever get gruff on the Tyrant/Primes. 3 different models of Lictor are fine - as long as they're all Lictors.
Exocrine as TFex is the only "iffy" one imo... and only because I'm not sure of the footprint difference between the two.
Even then if you base it right you probably can get away with it, if you don't have a new Exocrine in your list, as having an Armoucast Exocrine as a T-fex and a new model Exocrine as an Exocrine it could get confusing,
This is my Exocrine/Fex conversion.
Why? Because I dont like a tyranid with a giant plasma shooting penis sticking out of it.
Do you ever play both an Exocrine and a T-fex? Do you play different models? If not, do you have some other way of differentiation? (Other than weapon) Or are people just ok with it?
And then it's not in our book but the FW Stone Crusher is fairly well known.
2+ Armor IWND Fex....ah yes...
According to the Forge World open day thread, the new edition of IA4 (likely coming in the summer) will remove the 2+ save from the Stonecrusher. Apparently they've replaced it with a special rule forcing -1 on To Wound rolls. If that works on poison too it could be even better.
I got a look at the final copy of the updated book, which was being sent to printers after the event.
His 2+ is gone! the authors reasoning was he felt that a 2+ was kind of pointless because there was so much that could ignore it nowadays. So he changed to a rule that forces any wound roll to suffer a -1 penalty on its roll. Also the stonecrusher gets D3+1 hammer of wrath at AP2 and one of its weapons cause instant death but I can't remember which. I also can't recall seeing it be able to brood up.
So if you have an in to the business. Maybe you can answer my complicated question? Is it more profitable for sculpting companies to sell whole models? Or sell bases of models and then separate accessories.
My example would be warriors vs something like the tyrant kit. Like a basic warriors kit, a warrior weapon kit, a warrior wings kit (for shrikes), and a warrior prime conversion kit. Sold separately, but fit together A LA Legos.
Or is it more optimal to make an all purpose kit. A la the Hive Tyrant/Winged Tyrant/Swarmlord being one (relatively expensive) box, but have all the accessories.
I understand the MOST profitable would probably be something like a Separate kit for all those things. But honestly, usually all that does is open the market for conversions and people splitting kits and selling them 3rd party piecemeal, and it's kind of a jerk move in general.
I sadly don't have an in to the company, it was on display at the Forge World open day, so I had a fairly decent flick through it.
Other changes included
Malonthropes dropping in points, moved to elites slots, and gaining a challenge rule which allows them to pull a character into a challenge. But not be challenged.
A completely new model, which I cannot remember it's name for the life of me, Brachtalis or something vaguely along those lines (seriously don't quote that) I didn't get much of a look at it's rules, but got to pick the brains of the author on his thinking behind some parts of it. The model itself is Hive Tyrant esque in the fact that it stands on two legs, but it is much taller. It has a chest thorax that opens out a bit like the Haruspexs mouth, a large set of scy talons that split into two. And a set of Rending claws. It's a fast attack choice so that it didn't step on the toes of the Tyrant or the Carnifex.
The sculpt wasn't quite finished at the Open day, so expect that to come out around June, a few weeks after the book.
Also if you look at a picture in the book it is slightly blurred to one side, this is because the model wasn't finished when they needed to take the photo. It's being sculpted by Trish Carden who sculpted the Dread Saurian.
The Malonthrope is the only model that has had a second 6th edition update, all the other models in there that have 6th edition rules elsewhere, you are told to find them there. Anything that doesn't have a model is dropped I.e Spore Chimneys.
Mioetic Spores have had a small change to bring them up to date, nothing major.
The biggest changes to the book is the fact that it is basically Codex Red Scorpions. With Chapter tactics, a new version of Culn, relics, and new character dread and all there other Red Scorpion rules being put into the one place.
And then it's not in our book but the FW Stone Crusher is fairly well known.
2+ Armor IWND Fex....ah yes...
According to the Forge World open day thread, the new edition of IA4 (likely coming in the summer) will remove the 2+ save from the Stonecrusher. Apparently they've replaced it with a special rule forcing -1 on To Wound rolls. If that works on poison too it could be even better.
I got a look at the final copy of the updated book, which was being sent to printers after the event.
His 2+ is gone! the authors reasoning was he felt that a 2+ was kind of pointless because there was so much that could ignore it nowadays. So he changed to a rule that forces any wound roll to suffer a -1 penalty on its roll. Also the stonecrusher gets D3+1 hammer of wrath at AP2 and one of its weapons cause instant death but I can't remember which. I also can't recall seeing it be able to brood up.
So if you have an in to the business. Maybe you can answer my complicated question? Is it more profitable for sculpting companies to sell whole models? Or sell bases of models and then separate accessories.
My example would be warriors vs something like the tyrant kit. Like a basic warriors kit, a warrior weapon kit, a warrior wings kit (for shrikes), and a warrior prime conversion kit. Sold separately, but fit together A LA Legos.
Or is it more optimal to make an all purpose kit. A la the Hive Tyrant/Winged Tyrant/Swarmlord being one (relatively expensive) box, but have all the accessories.
I understand the MOST profitable would probably be something like a Separate kit for all those things. But honestly, usually all that does is open the market for conversions and people splitting kits and selling them 3rd party piecemeal, and it's kind of a jerk move in general.
I sadly don't have an in to the company, it was on display at the Forge World open day, so I had a fairly decent flick through it.
Other changes included
Malonthropes dropping in points, moved to elites slots, and gaining a challenge rule which allows them to pull a character into a challenge. But not be challenged.
A completely new model, which I cannot remember it's name for the life of me, Brachtalis or something vaguely along those lines (seriously don't quote that) I didn't get much of a look at it's rules, but got to pick the brains of the author on his thinking behind some parts of it. The model itself is Hive Tyrant esque in the fact that it stands on two legs, but it is much taller. It has a chest thorax that opens out a bit like the Haruspexs mouth, a large set of scy talons that split into two. And a set of Rending claws. It's a fast attack choice so that it didn't step on the toes of the Tyrant or the Carnifex.
The sculpt wasn't quite finished at the Open day, so expect that to come out around June, a few weeks after the book.
Also if you look at a picture in the book it is slightly blurred to one side, this is because the model wasn't finished when they needed to take the photo. It's being sculpted by Trish Carden who sculpted the Dread Saurian.
The Malonthrope is the only model that has had a second 6th edition update, all the other models in there that have 6th edition rules elsewhere, you are told to find them there. Anything that doesn't have a model is dropped I.e Spore Chimneys.
Mioetic Spores have had a small change to bring them up to date, nothing major.
The biggest changes to the book is the fact that it is basically Codex Red Scorpions. With Chapter tactics, a new version of Culn, relics, and new character dread and all there other Red Scorpion rules being put into the one place.
Malanthrope in the elite slot?! Buh bye zoeys! That's a borderline staple for synapse now.
And a fast attack Melee powered MC along the lines of a Tyrant/Carnifex.....baller.... Synapse or speed....need one or the other.....or both......
Automatically Appended Next Post: Red scorpions look like they'd play like non-CSM versions of Iron warriors.....cool.
And then it's not in our book but the FW Stone Crusher is fairly well known.
2+ Armor IWND Fex....ah yes...
According to the Forge World open day thread, the new edition of IA4 (likely coming in the summer) will remove the 2+ save from the Stonecrusher. Apparently they've replaced it with a special rule forcing -1 on To Wound rolls. If that works on poison too it could be even better.
I got a look at the final copy of the updated book, which was being sent to printers after the event.
His 2+ is gone! the authors reasoning was he felt that a 2+ was kind of pointless because there was so much that could ignore it nowadays. So he changed to a rule that forces any wound roll to suffer a -1 penalty on its roll. Also the stonecrusher gets D3+1 hammer of wrath at AP2 and one of its weapons cause instant death but I can't remember which. I also can't recall seeing it be able to brood up.
So if you have an in to the business. Maybe you can answer my complicated question? Is it more profitable for sculpting companies to sell whole models? Or sell bases of models and then separate accessories.
My example would be warriors vs something like the tyrant kit. Like a basic warriors kit, a warrior weapon kit, a warrior wings kit (for shrikes), and a warrior prime conversion kit. Sold separately, but fit together A LA Legos.
Or is it more optimal to make an all purpose kit. A la the Hive Tyrant/Winged Tyrant/Swarmlord being one (relatively expensive) box, but have all the accessories.
I understand the MOST profitable would probably be something like a Separate kit for all those things. But honestly, usually all that does is open the market for conversions and people splitting kits and selling them 3rd party piecemeal, and it's kind of a jerk move in general.
I sadly don't have an in to the company, it was on display at the Forge World open day, so I had a fairly decent flick through it.
Other changes included
Malonthropes dropping in points, moved to elites slots, and gaining a challenge rule which allows them to pull a character into a challenge. But not be challenged.
A completely new model, which I cannot remember it's name for the life of me, Brachtalis or something vaguely along those lines (seriously don't quote that) I didn't get much of a look at it's rules, but got to pick the brains of the author on his thinking behind some parts of it. The model itself is Hive Tyrant esque in the fact that it stands on two legs, but it is much taller. It has a chest thorax that opens out a bit like the Haruspexs mouth, a large set of scy talons that split into two. And a set of Rending claws. It's a fast attack choice so that it didn't step on the toes of the Tyrant or the Carnifex.
The sculpt wasn't quite finished at the Open day, so expect that to come out around June, a few weeks after the book.
Also if you look at a picture in the book it is slightly blurred to one side, this is because the model wasn't finished when they needed to take the photo. It's being sculpted by Trish Carden who sculpted the Dread Saurian.
The Malonthrope is the only model that has had a second 6th edition update, all the other models in there that have 6th edition rules elsewhere, you are told to find them there. Anything that doesn't have a model is dropped I.e Spore Chimneys.
Mioetic Spores have had a small change to bring them up to date, nothing major.
The biggest changes to the book is the fact that it is basically Codex Red Scorpions. With Chapter tactics, a new version of Culn, relics, and new character dread and all there other Red Scorpion rules being put into the one place.
Malanthrope in the elite slot?! Buh bye zoeys! That's a borderline staple for synapse now.
And a fast attack Melee powered MC along the lines of a Tyrant/Carnifex.....baller.... Synapse or speed....need one or the other.....or both......
Automatically Appended Next Post: Red scorpions look like they'd play like non-CSM versions of Iron warriors.....cool.
Yeah I'm super excited for the Malonthrope changes, I've still got mine waiting to be painted up on my desk.
As well as the early startings of my Red Scorpion army, so this book is gold dust for me.
PrinceRaven wrote:If the Dimachaeron (name for the new FWMC) is a Beast MC I would be very happy.
That's the one! I really should have got a better look at the rules, and I'm kicking myself I didn't.
Also if you look at a picture in the book it is slightly blurred to one side, this is because the model wasn't finished when they needed to take the photo. It's being sculpted by Trish Carden who sculpted the Dread Saurian.
Welp, that may have just killed my interest in it. Everything Trish sculpts becomes a nightmare of WTF Teeth. Seriously, looking from one Monster to another they all have THOSE TEETH. I was rather fond and loving of the Tyranids seemingly having avoided the TEETH syndrome, with their precise alien gnashing implements....
Also if you look at a picture in the book it is slightly blurred to one side, this is because the model wasn't finished when they needed to take the photo. It's being sculpted by Trish Carden who sculpted the Dread Saurian.
Welp, that may have just killed my interest in it. Everything Trish sculpts becomes a nightmare of WTF Teeth. Seriously, looking from one Monster to another they all have THOSE TEETH. I was rather fond and loving of the Tyranids seemingly having avoided the TEETH syndrome, with their precise alien gnashing implements....
Do you ever play both an Exocrine and a T-fex? Do you play different models? If not, do you have some other way of differentiation? (Other than weapon) Or are people just ok with it?
I never use the Exocrine these days and the Tfex only in fun games. However, I felt that the Fex's weapons always looked pretty shoddy and that this one looked more like the 5th ed artwork.
To me it looks like something he plops down on the ground before firing because of its mass.
Also reminded me of another reason I dislike the exocrine model, it's stupid Pyrovore-esque grin on its face.
And then it's not in our book but the FW Stone Crusher is fairly well known.
2+ Armor IWND Fex....ah yes...
According to the Forge World open day thread, the new edition of IA4 (likely coming in the summer) will remove the 2+ save from the Stonecrusher. Apparently they've replaced it with a special rule forcing -1 on To Wound rolls. If that works on poison too it could be even better.
I got a look at the final copy of the updated book, which was being sent to printers after the event.
His 2+ is gone! the authors reasoning was he felt that a 2+ was kind of pointless because there was so much that could ignore it nowadays. So he changed to a rule that forces any wound roll to suffer a -1 penalty on its roll. Also the stonecrusher gets D3+1 hammer of wrath at AP2 and one of its weapons cause instant death but I can't remember which. I also can't recall seeing it be able to brood up.
So if you have an in to the business. Maybe you can answer my complicated question? Is it more profitable for sculpting companies to sell whole models? Or sell bases of models and then separate accessories.
My example would be warriors vs something like the tyrant kit. Like a basic warriors kit, a warrior weapon kit, a warrior wings kit (for shrikes), and a warrior prime conversion kit. Sold separately, but fit together A LA Legos.
Or is it more optimal to make an all purpose kit. A la the Hive Tyrant/Winged Tyrant/Swarmlord being one (relatively expensive) box, but have all the accessories.
I understand the MOST profitable would probably be something like a Separate kit for all those things. But honestly, usually all that does is open the market for conversions and people splitting kits and selling them 3rd party piecemeal, and it's kind of a jerk move in general.
I sadly don't have an in to the company, it was on display at the Forge World open day, so I had a fairly decent flick through it.
Other changes included
Malonthropes dropping in points, moved to elites slots, and gaining a challenge rule which allows them to pull a character into a challenge. But not be challenged.
A completely new model, which I cannot remember it's name for the life of me, Brachtalis or something vaguely along those lines (seriously don't quote that) I didn't get much of a look at it's rules, but got to pick the brains of the author on his thinking behind some parts of it. The model itself is Hive Tyrant esque in the fact that it stands on two legs, but it is much taller. It has a chest thorax that opens out a bit like the Haruspexs mouth, a large set of scy talons that split into two. And a set of Rending claws. It's a fast attack choice so that it didn't step on the toes of the Tyrant or the Carnifex.
The sculpt wasn't quite finished at the Open day, so expect that to come out around June, a few weeks after the book.
Also if you look at a picture in the book it is slightly blurred to one side, this is because the model wasn't finished when they needed to take the photo. It's being sculpted by Trish Carden who sculpted the Dread Saurian.
The Malonthrope is the only model that has had a second 6th edition update, all the other models in there that have 6th edition rules elsewhere, you are told to find them there. Anything that doesn't have a model is dropped I.e Spore Chimneys.
Mioetic Spores have had a small change to bring them up to date, nothing major.
The biggest changes to the book is the fact that it is basically Codex Red Scorpions. With Chapter tactics, a new version of Culn, relics, and new character dread and all there other Red Scorpion rules being put into the one place.
captnobvious wrote:So if you have an in to the business. Maybe you can answer my complicated question? Is it more profitable for sculpting companies to sell whole models? Or sell bases of models and then separate accessories.
My example would be warriors vs something like the tyrant kit. Like a basic warriors kit, a warrior weapon kit, a warrior wings kit (for shrikes), and a warrior prime conversion kit. Sold separately, but fit together A LA Legos.
Or is it more optimal to make an all purpose kit. A la the Hive Tyrant/Winged Tyrant/Swarmlord being one (relatively expensive) box, but have all the accessories.
While I don't work for GW, I do work in manufacturing so I can field this...
The way plastic injection moulding works, the vast majority of the cost is up front. Once you have the design for a sprue the first step is to cut a steel mould, which is a very long process taking days or even weeks depending on the size of the sprue. Once the mould is complete, they have a very long production life and can churn out sprues for pennies each.
I don't know the exact figures GW will use, but you can expect the initial steel mould to cost something like 5 figures, while each item they produce is only a few pence in material.
Resin production is the other way around. They take a few moulds of the master model (usually in silicone), which can then be refilled with resin to make the final models. While the time and materials needed to make the mould are much lower than the steel moulds for plastic, it does take much more time and more expensive materials to make the models themselves. In addition to this, silicone moulds will degrade through use, losing material in complex sculpts and eventually losing detail. After enough use they need to be replaced from the master mould.
This makes resin models a good option in situations where the company won't sell enough of the product to cover the cost of an expensive steel mould.
All of GW's production decisions will be based on expected volume of sales. Named special characters don't tend to get plastic releases because the sales volume won't be high enough to cover the up front costs. It's also why you see so many dual-kits, it lets GW share the upfront cost of plastics production between 2 similar products. If there's room on a sprue to fit extra options (the Tyranid Warrior kit is a perfect example) GW will do that because it's cheaper than to make an extra kit. I'm really struggling to think of something that will sell enough to justify separate plastic add-on kits. It will virtually always be more effective to make the add-on sprue (which costs them pennies to produce) and throw it in with the original kit, saving them having to package, store and distribute an extra product which may not sell as well. It saves warehouse space, shipping costs and means they can charge a bit more for the original kit because "it has more options!". They can guarantee the income from the add-on options like this, rather than taking the risk and overheads of selling them separately.
Hope this helps.
captnobvious wrote:Effectively he's +1 Toughness. I don't see it as a major setback. He's better against poison and small arms fire now. Worse against high armor pen stuff. Usually those weapons have a low fire rate. Makes regen (I can't remember if he can buy it) and IWND more effective. I don't see it as a complete nerfing. Depends on his points cost. 1D3+1 HoW attacks is much more impressive to look at though. His role is unchanged for the most part.
I some situations I see it as better than +1 Toughness. Everything (including melta/lascannons) will wound on 3+ now, and poison will typically be 5+. The special rule will be much more effective against AP1/AP2 stuff than the old 2+ save, as they will fail to wound twice as often.
And then it's not in our book but the FW Stone Crusher is fairly well known.
2+ Armor IWND Fex....ah yes...
According to the Forge World open day thread, the new edition of IA4 (likely coming in the summer) will remove the 2+ save from the Stonecrusher. Apparently they've replaced it with a special rule forcing -1 on To Wound rolls. If that works on poison too it could be even better.
I got a look at the final copy of the updated book, which was being sent to printers after the event.
His 2+ is gone! the authors reasoning was he felt that a 2+ was kind of pointless because there was so much that could ignore it nowadays. So he changed to a rule that forces any wound roll to suffer a -1 penalty on its roll. Also the stonecrusher gets D3+1 hammer of wrath at AP2 and one of its weapons cause instant death but I can't remember which. I also can't recall seeing it be able to brood up.
...Aww. now he's Krak missile food.
Effectively he's +1 Toughness. I don't see it as a major setback. He's better against poison and small arms fire now. Worse against high armor pen stuff. Usually those weapons have a low fire rate. Makes regen (I can't remember if he can buy it) and IWND more effective. I don't see it as a complete nerfing. Depends on his points cost. 1D3+1 HoW attacks is much more impressive to look at though. His role is unchanged for the most part.
That's D3+1 HOW at AP2! I also think he is base Str 10.
Also if you look at a picture in the book it is slightly blurred to one side, this is because the model wasn't finished when they needed to take the photo. It's being sculpted by Trish Carden who sculpted the Dread Saurian.
Welp, that may have just killed my interest in it. Everything Trish sculpts becomes a nightmare of WTF Teeth. Seriously, looking from one Monster to another they all have THOSE TEETH. I was rather fond and loving of the Tyranids seemingly having avoided the TEETH syndrome, with their precise alien gnashing implements....
We'll have to wait and see. And pray. A lot.
It had lots of very well defined teeth.
We shall see. The Dark Elf range has soured me twice over on Carden's work - the previous version of the Hydra, the Dragon....the Dread Saurian's not much better in the dental department.
His HOW will be S9, he's S10 AP1 in combat before I believe.
But it's all up in the air...I'll play a fex that only gets wounded by grav on a 4+ (If they thought of this)
I meant in the re-write I think ( but not 100%) that he has a standard profile of Strength 10. And his Special Hammer of Wrath attacks hit at D3+1 Ap2. I'm more excited about his flail mace weapon that has Instant ?Death, get that beast into charge range of ANYTHING and it is dead.
Centurion bait as well...but everything runs the risk of that.
Tie them up with Gargoyles then smash them apart with Fexes
One thought about using Gargoyles as a tarpit for things like Centurions or Terminators.
You can bring in a Mawloc right on top of your own gargoyles. It is really useful, and since it happens at the beginning of your turn, you can Mawloc your own tarpit to death, and get a full turn of shooting at whatever is left of what they were tarpitting if your Mawloc doesn't kill them all.
I've used this technique more than once against scary things like Paladins, and I never have the fear that they are going to ID my TMCs with their force weapons.
captnobvious wrote:So if you have an in to the business. Maybe you can answer my complicated question? Is it more profitable for sculpting companies to sell whole models? Or sell bases of models and then separate accessories.
My example would be warriors vs something like the tyrant kit. Like a basic warriors kit, a warrior weapon kit, a warrior wings kit (for shrikes), and a warrior prime conversion kit. Sold separately, but fit together A LA Legos.
Or is it more optimal to make an all purpose kit. A la the Hive Tyrant/Winged Tyrant/Swarmlord being one (relatively expensive) box, but have all the accessories.
While I don't work for GW, I do work in manufacturing so I can field this...
The way plastic injection moulding works, the vast majority of the cost is up front. Once you have the design for a sprue the first step is to cut a steel mould, which is a very long process taking days or even weeks depending on the size of the sprue. Once the mould is complete, they have a very long production life and can churn out sprues for pennies each.
I don't know the exact figures GW will use, but you can expect the initial steel mould to cost something like 5 figures, while each item they produce is only a few pence in material.
Resin production is the other way around. They take a few moulds of the master model (usually in silicone), which can then be refilled with resin to make the final models. While the time and materials needed to make the mould are much lower than the steel moulds for plastic, it does take much more time and more expensive materials to make the models themselves. In addition to this, silicone moulds will degrade through use, losing material in complex sculpts and eventually losing detail. After enough use they need to be replaced from the master mould.
This makes resin models a good option in situations where the company won't sell enough of the product to cover the cost of an expensive steel mould.
All of GW's production decisions will be based on expected volume of sales. Named special characters don't tend to get plastic releases because the sales volume won't be high enough to cover the up front costs. It's also why you see so many dual-kits, it lets GW share the upfront cost of plastics production between 2 similar products. If there's room on a sprue to fit extra options (the Tyranid Warrior kit is a perfect example) GW will do that because it's cheaper than to make an extra kit. I'm really struggling to think of something that will sell enough to justify separate plastic add-on kits. It will virtually always be more effective to make the add-on sprue (which costs them pennies to produce) and throw it in with the original kit, saving them having to package, store and distribute an extra product which may not sell as well. It saves warehouse space, shipping costs and means they can charge a bit more for the original kit because "it has more options!". They can guarantee the income from the add-on options like this, rather than taking the risk and overheads of selling them separately.
Hope this helps.
Yes and no. It just seems particularity impractical with the current way they're running it. Once an item has been sculpted, prior to plastic injection molding could it not be possible to have both setups? They pretty much did it with the tyrant. It didn't get produced in plastic, but pewter instead and then switched to finecast. So it seems that you can effectively recast something if there doesn't seem to be demand. Moving to a set model where stock bodies are made and then finecast accessories seems to be effective, but wouldn't it be optimal at that point to consistently do that. An example would be something like a Dreadnaught, and then forgeworld casting it's unique/specialty weapons and plates in resin. This is all fine and good, but not standard, and you're splitting the difference between the body and arms of the company. I mean boneswords and TLDevs are made by forgeworld. Are they not owned and operated (effectively) by GW?
captnobvious wrote:Effectively he's +1 Toughness. I don't see it as a major setback. He's better against poison and small arms fire now. Worse against high armor pen stuff. Usually those weapons have a low fire rate. Makes regen (I can't remember if he can buy it) and IWND more effective. I don't see it as a complete nerfing. Depends on his points cost. 1D3+1 HoW attacks is much more impressive to look at though. His role is unchanged for the most part.
I some situations I see it as better than +1 Toughness. Everything (including melta/lascannons) will wound on 3+ now, and poison will typically be 5+. The special rule will be much more effective against AP1/AP2 stuff than the old 2+ save, as they will fail to wound twice as often.
Actually it's better on all accounts. If you place -1 to wound on all incoming attacks.
1) It effects poison/melta, reducing its special-ness, decreasing its chance by 1/6th
2) It makes it impossble to reach 2+ to wound, even with 10 STR. Doubling its chance not to wound.
3) It actually makes it equivalent to T8 for regular weaponry. STR 3&4 CAN'T wound it. Making it immune to small arms fire.
And considering the very small amount of AP 3 weaponry in the game (I think I can count them on my hands). It seems an overall improvement. Can you adrenals it?
Centurion bait as well...but everything runs the risk of that.
Tie them up with Gargoyles then smash them apart with Fexes
One thought about using Gargoyles as a tarpit for things like Centurions or Terminators.
You can bring in a Mawloc right on top of your own gargoyles. It is really useful, and since it happens at the beginning of your turn, you can Mawloc your own tarpit to death, and get a full turn of shooting at whatever is left of what they were tarpitting if your Mawloc doesn't kill them all.
I've used this technique more than once against scary things like Paladins, and I never have the fear that they are going to ID my TMCs with their force weapons.
Do you ever play both an Exocrine and a T-fex? Do you play different models? If not, do you have some other way of differentiation? (Other than weapon) Or are people just ok with it?
I never use the Exocrine these days and the Tfex only in fun games. However, I felt that the Fex's weapons always looked pretty shoddy and that this one looked more like the 5th ed artwork.
To me it looks like something he plops down on the ground before firing because of its mass.
Also reminded me of another reason I dislike the exocrine model, it's stupid Pyrovore-esque grin on its face.
Think I could do a homebrew kit to, say, put the exocrine gun on the plate that sits on the T-fex shoulders and give him standard claw hands and rock him beside a standard T-fex? Different enough for a pro tourney? I mean the difference between the models is what? A wound an an AC value?
I'd like a close up of that mouth. Already I see the Carden jaggedness of teeth. It's still very WIP and I hope against hope that it ends up with uniform teeth - it's what I like about Tyranids...their alien nature is all the way down to their uniform teeth. No jaggedness, no mouth full of random implements....
Also, for the record...painting the bone 'skin' of a Crone gets boring fast...I was planning on mass painting through this stage but I think I may have to vary it and go to carapaces on some critters already.
Yes and no. It just seems particularity impractical with the current way they're running it. Once an item has been sculpted, prior to plastic injection molding could it not be possible to have both setups? They pretty much did it with the tyrant. It didn't get produced in plastic, but pewter instead and then switched to finecast. So it seems that you can effectively recast something if there doesn't seem to be demand. Moving to a set model where stock bodies are made and then finecast accessories seems to be effective, but wouldn't it be optimal at that point to consistently do that. An example would be something like a Dreadnaught, and then forgeworld casting it's unique/specialty weapons and plates in resin. This is all fine and good, but not standard, and you're splitting the difference between the body and arms of the company. I mean boneswords and TLDevs are made by forgeworld. Are they not owned and operated (effectively) by GW?
A lot of the Forgeworld Dreadnought options are very low volume pieces, which makes sense for them to be produced in resin. Very few people will want to make a Salamanders dread, for example, so those add-ons are more of a specialist item.
One thing to keep in mind here is that plastics technology is continuing to get cheaper year-by-year as GW invest more into it. The pewter version of the Hive Tyrant came out about a decade ago, when it may have cost say £50,000* to create moulds of that size. By the time 2011/2012 rolled around, the Hive Tyrant kit required a lot of new options from the codex, and the Forge World Flyrant model was aesthetically dated and possibly worn out. However by then it may have only cost them £15,000* to develop moulds, which in turn would effectively cover 3 kits: Hive Tyrant, Flyrant and the Swarmlord. That's a much better investment than it was back in 2004.
The Devourers are likely to be an oversight. The design team behind the plasic Tyrant would have struggled to fit all the possible weapon options into the sprue, and so left off a couple. As it happened, the option they skipped was by far one of the better ones and many players wanted to use it. Some time later someone in GW / FW picked up on this trend and decided to make a simple add-on before Chapterhouse or someone did. I'm sure if the model designers had known back in 2011 how popular Devourers would be, they'd have made room on the sprue at the expense of another option.
I'm not sure what boneswords you're talking about... the finecast Warrior ones were discontinued with the new plastic kit. That's part of why that box costs more than the old one... GW included as many options as they could with it rather than making them optional.
Anyone figured out a way how to maximise Warriors?
I'd love to run 9(+) of them but just seem to find other things being slightly more optimal and/or cheaper.
Anyone got any good loadout ideas or cheeky tactics?
Ratius wrote: Anyone figured out a way how to maximise Warriors?
I'd love to run 9(+) of them but just seem to find other things being slightly more optimal and/or cheaper.
Anyone got any good loadout ideas or cheeky tactics?
That's because everything else is more optimal and/or cheaper
I dunno, if you really want to go for that style I guess the best approach is to at least get the benefits from some of the formations - many of them use Warriors which opens up a few avenues:
The Synaptic Swarm is the most obvious choice, however it is rather expensive (500-1000pts).
Living Artillery gives Pinning to all ranged weapons in the formation, so it applies to Warrior Devourers / Deathspitters / Venom Cannons. Having a larger brood in there also makes the scatter dice bonus easier to keep around for the other units.
Bio-blast Warriors can re-roll 1's to wound when shooting, which can be just as useful. Their heavy weapon can Split Fire too.
A large unit will get the most benefit from things like Onslaught or Catalyst, assuming there's nothing better you could apply it to (like an MC). One thing I definitely wouldn't consider is to use Warriors equipped for melee. Those upgrades simply get too costly too quickly for what they do. Just stick to Deathspitters with a heavy weapon, try to apply Venomthrope/Catalyst buffs where possible, and keep shooting. Then at least you can focus on holding objectives and staying alive to provide synapse.
There was some mathammer done a while ago in this thread that showed the Prime's WS/BS boost gives only a very tiny return on its cost (the average wounds caused per point by a full unit of Warriors only goes up a few percent). So basically don't worry about including a Prime, they're certainly not essential.
A friend of mine told me that you can't hit with a crone if you go out of table in that turn since at the end of the movement phase your creature isn't there! (he uses heldrakes so it's not to hind me)
Ratius wrote: Anyone figured out a way how to maximise Warriors?
I'd love to run 9(+) of them but just seem to find other things being slightly more optimal and/or cheaper.
Anyone got any good loadout ideas or cheeky tactics?
As above, the dataslates help a lot in this department. I find that barebones warriors are optimal, especially when run in large numbers alongside MCs. Quantity is more important, as usual with tyranids...
I've been wanting to run the synaptic swarm as I enjoy putting a Prime with my Venomthropes and usually run Warriors anyhow. Plus, I love the Warrior models!
Ratius wrote: Anyone figured out a way how to maximise Warriors?
I'd love to run 9(+) of them but just seem to find other things being slightly more optimal and/or cheaper.
Anyone got any good loadout ideas or cheeky tactics?
The best way to run them is in squads of 3 with Barbed Stranglers as their only upgrade, then hide them in your backfield.
badula wrote:A friend of mine told me that you can't hit with a crone if you go out of table in that turn since at the end of the movement phase your creature isn't there! (he uses heldrakes so it's not to hind me)
is him right?
Do you mean for Vector Strike?
Because in that case, they're incorrect, being on the table is not one of the listed requirements in the Vector Strike rule.
badula wrote: A friend of mine told me that you can't hit with a crone if you go out of table in that turn since at the end of the movement phase your creature isn't there! (he uses heldrakes so it's not to hind me)
is him right?
It was in the BRBFAQ (before it got "temporarily" taken down). You can fly off the table and vector-strike a unit while doing so.
Ratius wrote: Anyone figured out a way how to maximise Warriors?
I'd love to run 9(+) of them but just seem to find other things being slightly more optimal and/or cheaper.
Anyone got any good loadout ideas or cheeky tactics?
The closest you'll get to clever is a big Brood of 6+, and outflank if you kit them with say Deathspitters, a Strangle Cannon, and Rending Claws, you have a pretty good backfield attack force. Toss in a Gland (Toxin) and you're looking mighty fine. Because CC is currently sub-optimal, I don't know that Flesh Hooks, or Boneswords, or Adrenals are worth looking at...
Warrior+ Cannon, Warriors x6 Deathspitters x6, Rending Claws x7 hmmm... 280? A little pricey but it has Synapse, and is a do everything unit. Why not toss in Toxic? If you Outflank 2 Troops the other could be a big (25-30x) Brood of Gaunts. That could really turn the pressure up
I remember someone posting some victorys from using a big Outflank of Warriors, so why not give it a try?
SBG wrote: You can deep strike onto your own units to force the TFTD?
Hmm, I like the sound of that. But what's the precedent? Not disallowed anywhere?
As long as you center it over an enemy model it doesn't matter if it's in combat or not.
No need to Center over an enemy model. It isn't a shooting attack it is a deep strike. You pick a spot on the board, and it can be anywhere over an enemy mode, over a friendly model, over no model at all. I usually target gaps between models so that I can hit more of a unit and/or snipe out specific models.
This is especially useful when playing Tau, and they are doing their thing lining up along the board edge to make TFTD / blasts in general more difficult. Pick a point that is solidly on the board, and just barely clips a broadside or two.
My nids have been on ice since the 6e book dropped. From what most of what I've read so far, the three dataslates are more or less required to make the army work, as well as investing in at least a crone and an exocrine.
So past the initial $245.00 investment to make things work something to how they used to (I liked more of a walking nids list, so using lots of FMC will be odd for me), anything else I should really look at? Maybe another venomthrope or two (one atm)?
StarHunter25 wrote: My nids have been on ice since the 6e book dropped. From what most of what I've read so far, the three dataslates are more or less required to make the army work, as well as investing in at least a crone and an exocrine.
So past the initial $245.00 investment to make things work something to how they used to (I liked more of a walking nids list, so using lots of FMC will be odd for me), anything else I should really look at? Maybe another venomthrope or two (one atm)?
What's in your collection? Walking Nidzilla can work OK, it's not super-competitive but it's definitely playable. Pretty much all the Heavy Support choices (especially Fexes) are solid, and Venomthropes / Zoanthropes / Hive Guard can all contribute too.
StarHunter25 wrote: My nids have been on ice since the 6e book dropped. From what most of what I've read so far, the three dataslates are more or less required to make the army work, as well as investing in at least a crone and an exocrine.
So past the initial $245.00 investment to make things work something to how they used to (I liked more of a walking nids list, so using lots of FMC will be odd for me), anything else I should really look at? Maybe another venomthrope or two (one atm)?
I wouldn't say they are must have, but Crones are pretty good to have (I have none ) I don't have an Exocrene either, but I may get one some day "just because" .
The second, and third Dataslates are very useful, the first is more "flavory" to me..... I've posted a "Endless Tunnel Assault" list or two here, and over in Army Lists, that uses "Endless Swarm" formation (and uses No Crones, or Exocrenes ) So you might look at that for ideas
StarHunter25 wrote: My nids have been on ice since the 6e book dropped. From what most of what I've read so far, the three dataslates are more or less required to make the army work, as well as investing in at least a crone and an exocrine.
So past the initial $245.00 investment to make things work something to how they used to (I liked more of a walking nids list, so using lots of FMC will be odd for me), anything else I should really look at? Maybe another venomthrope or two (one atm)?
If you want lots of walking nids, maybe get a living artillery formation to rain pinning doom on the enemies while you move foward.
(That's 3 biovores, 3 warriors and one exocrine)
Local 1850 tourney next week with no dataslates or allies allowed.
Taking this:
2xFlyrant with Devourers, one has HC Venomthrope
30 Termagants
Tervigon (Outflanking then breeding a protection bubble)
Warrior brood
3xCrone
2xMawloc
Tyrannofex
Its the 3 Adepticon missions with symmetrical tables.
Essentially crones and flyrants push up hard with angles to improve vector striking. Fex/Warriors/Venom move up with the 30 gant bubble line in front, seizing objectives and hopefully drawing fire while under synapse.
Tervigon goes to grab one of the objectives with gants assisting, and hopefully enough firepower is wasted shooting at the sky that my Tfex last to the end acid spraying or punching things.
At the moment, I'm in one of those playing droughts, where I won't get a game in for another week (Exams are brutal). However, these months are when I crack down on my math-hammer and theory hammer, and the changes I need to make in my Tyranid list.
I'm thinking skyshields. A lot of people like them already, so I won't claim originality, but I think it would serve as a better Alpha-strike protector than a Bastion, and you can hide a Venom under one easily anyways.
Who here has used a Skyshield, especially in a Flyer Heavy list?
jifel wrote: At the moment, I'm in one of those playing droughts, where I won't get a game in for another week (Exams are brutal). However, these months are when I crack down on my math-hammer and theory hammer, and the changes I need to make in my Tyranid list.
I'm thinking skyshields. A lot of people like them already, so I won't claim originality, but I think it would serve as a better Alpha-strike protector than a Bastion, and you can hide a Venom under one easily anyways.
Who here has used a Skyshield, especially in a Flyer Heavy list?
I'm using 1 tomorrow @750 points. I have high hopes for it combined with the venomthrope, zoanthrope, exocrine, flyrant, and biovores I'm fielding alongside it. I'll chime in after my game with a quick recap.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So now that other Codices are coming out (Astra Militarum, Tempestus) I feel like we have exhausted the basic tactica of the nids over 90 pages of thread.
I propose we maintain this thread by adding to it with counter-tactics for new (and some existing) armies to keep the hive mind fresh with ripe information.
So, to start, Codex: Astra Militarum (Star Army...Starmy!)
Some of the things to be very aware of on the game table:
1.) Pask. In a Punisher. 20 Bs4 Rending, Preferred enemy shots is nothing to scoff at.
2.) Regimental Advisors - Master of Ordnance can clear out our support bugs like zoanthropes and venomthropes with a direct hit.
3.) Command Squads - Orders are the guard's niche. Some are brutal, including the Ignores Cover option. Take these out with extreme prejudice.
4.) War Priests - Giving a huge unit re-rolls in close combat, fearless, and the other war chants are all very huge buffs. These guys must go down.
Some things I think tyranid players have access to that will mitigate these threats:
1.) Precision shots from flyrants - Direct all 6's to hit at the war priests, commanders, MoO's, etc. Most of the characters who "buff" the unit aren't IC's, so they either look out sir on a 4+ or not at all.
2.) Barrage sniping - Same idea as above, but with biovores and harpy spore mine drops. Force saves on particular models and just like tau, the guard will start to fall apart.
3.) Haywire - The Electroshock Grubs are great TAC flamers for tyrants and tervigons/tyrannofexes. Not only are they haywire but the AP5 negates most guardsmen's armor.
4.) FMC's - this spam is really the 'go to' tournament list right now, but for good reason. It works. Choking the table with 5 fairly cheap (compared to Daemon princes) FMC's means that even when 1 or 2 go down the others can converge and smash tanks or small regiments of infantry while your foot sloggers take care of the forward elements.
That's all i can think of off the top of my head right now. Feel free to add to, agree or disagree with my thoughts, etc.
I got my first game in against AM yesterday. I was playing 2 v 2 with Blood Angel allies and AG + Space Marines against us.
Because my space Marine opponent runs fluffy lists, and the AG player was new to the new Guard, and my ally was an excellent player, I ran a fluffy list that I knew would have some trouble with mech:
Spoiler:
1000 Points
Tyranid Prime (ST, Reaper, Regen, Flesh Hooks)
I was facing Land Raider with 2 Lemun Russ Variants (One had a large blast S10 AP:1. The other one had Pask and non-blast high S, AP shooting.
Behind those were 4 Chimeras with Las Cannons holding IG squads with 2 Plasmas, and 2 of the new psychers were hiding behind them (not joined to a squad for some reason).
And the Marine Opponent brought in 10 Terminators via Deep Strike, and had a Tac squad hiding out of sight manning the Emperor's Will Objective. It was Vanguard deployment.
Here is a basic rundown of the game:
Spoiler:
Top of 1: I made effective use of my Venom (and night fight), took one wound on a dakkafex, and lost 3 gaunts. My ally took no fire.
Bottom of 1: I started my long walk across the board to the tanks.
Top of 2: A scattered S10 Large blast ID 2 of my warriors, while my Fexes and Venom made their cover saves. Lost 2-3 more gaunts.
Bottom of 2: I got side armor on a Chimera turn 2, and blew it up with one of my STC fexes. My ally dropped a melta squad out of a Rhino next to the Land Raider, but failed to do anything.
Top of 3: Our opponents took that opportunity to exit the Land Raider with his Tac squad to shoot at the melta marines. I lost one Dakka fex, and the rest of my Gaunts.
Bottom of 3: On my turn 3 I killed lots of Marines with my STC fexes, and made a charge on the Land Raider with my remaining Dakkafex and Tyranid Prime. Lots of rolling only 1 glance. My Ally managed to pop a chimera with Mephiston who had been walking up one board edge toward our opponent's objective the whole game. I popped another Chimera with a fex.
Top of 4: My Dakkafex and Warlord took every shot fired, and it ended with my dakkafex dead and my warlord with only 1 wound left. My last warrior died leaving me with 1 wound of synapse left. The Terminators came in by our objective, and scattered a bit.
Bottom of 4: My Ally moved all of his units to engage the Terminators except for Mephiston. I charged the Land Raider with one of my fexes, and did 1 more glance (1/2 way there. Fexes are awesome! /sarcasm). My warlord, and the other fex killed some marines, and then failed to charge and finish them off. Mephiston killed some guardsmen that hopped out of the Chimera that I had just killed.
Top of 5: The S10 blast targeted my fex with the warlord, and scattered 11 inches over my other fex and the Land raider. My fex took a wound, but I rolled to Pen (6), and on the Pen table (6) to explode the Land Raider before it shot that turn. Yay! Our opponents wised up to Mephiston, and fired everything into him, and did 2 wounds.
Bottom of 5: I charged Pask's squad with a carnifex, but the tank with the Large blast was closer, so I killed it. I also charged my one wound warlord and carnifex into a squad of guardsmen. I lost my warlord to an overwatching lasgun. The Carnifex mopped up the squad, but now I had no more synapse. I charged a venom into some guard because I had nothing left to do with him. Mephiston made the charge into the marines holding the objective, but it was a large enough squad that he wasn't able to contest or make them pile in off of it. So it was 5 (First Blood, Linebreaker, 1 Objective) to 5 (Linebreaker, 1 Warlord, 1 Objective). But the game went on.
Top of 6: There wasn't a ton of firepower left. It killed one of my fexes, so all I had left was 1 Venom tarpitting some guard, and 1 Carnifex with 3 wounds. Pask ran away from what was going to be a charging carnifex. The Terminators failed their charge. Our opponents conceded, because Mephiston was going to draw their marines off of their objective.
It was a close game, and I got the impression that the new guard are going to be very challenging for tyranids though flying Circus would do ok, I'm guessing. I couldn't believe how much armor he could put on the board at 1000 points, and those psychic powers could have been huge had my opponent understood them a bit better. They don't Twin link everything like Tau, or Ignore cover all the time like Tau, but they have a lot of firepower.
They seem to have been brought in line with 6th and made a (mostly) lateral move in terms of power level.
They have some new tricks and such to deal with some current problems in the meta. I think they'll help balance out tau and an IG player with some lascannons and ignores cover orders is going to have a better chance facing down serpents.
Bugs don't seem too affected...there will be less (still 2) Vendettas on the board.
Depends if you play FW or not. I've done two games with my skyblight vs AM ( FW in both games) It went very very badly for me... got roflstomped both games. Sabre platforms/vultures Ignores cover with monster hunter.. it was almost laughable.
we are going to throw down with no FW soon though... see how it matches up at that point.
Roci wrote: Depends if you play FW or not. I've done two games with my skyblight vs AM ( FW in both games) It went very very badly for me... got roflstomped both games. Sabre platforms/vultures Ignores cover with monster hunter.. it was almost laughable.
we are going to throw down with no FW soon though... see how it matches up at that point.
But the orders don't affect Vehicles... right? Seriously, did this change? I was under the impression that orders only worked on Infantry units not all units. So yes, Sabres could benefit, but Vultures shouldn't be able to.
So, played my game with the sky shield/venom combo tonight. However it was vs a total baby seal who is just learning the game, so there aren't many tactics to be gleaned. I will say that the pad is a great vantage point for my exocrine and the 2+ cover save it gets with shrouded is clutch.
tetrisphreak wrote: So, played my game with the sky shield/venom combo tonight. However it was vs a total baby seal who is just learning the game, so there aren't many tactics to be gleaned. I will say that the pad is a great vantage point for my exocrine and the 2+ cover save it gets with shrouded is clutch.
Forge the Narrative did one of their extended 3 hour live batreps featuring a list that includes a skyshield with a Venom hiding underneath. Here is the link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0a7YR7L4CGc
I'm not a fan of their style of batrep, but I can't argue with their list:
2 Dakka Flyrants
Venom under a skyshield
Tervigon
30 Outflanking gaunts.
20-30 more gaunts.
2 Crones
Harpy
3 Exocrines on top of the skyshield.
tetrisphreak wrote: So, played my game with the sky shield/venom combo tonight. However it was vs a total baby seal who is just learning the game, so there aren't many tactics to be gleaned. I will say that the pad is a great vantage point for my exocrine and the 2+ cover save it gets with shrouded is clutch.
Forge the Narrative did one of their extended 3 hour live batreps featuring a list that includes a skyshield with a Venom hiding underneath. Here is the link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0a7YR7L4CGc
I'm not a fan of their style of batrep, but I can't argue with their list:
2 Dakka Flyrants
Venom under a skyshield
Tervigon
30 Outflanking gaunts.
20-30 more gaunts.
2 Crones
Harpy
3 Exocrines on top of the skyshield.
Yea I follow those guys and listen to the podcast. Juice is who I got the idea from in the first place. It's a great combo.
Ventus wrote: How does a venomthrope fit under a skyshield?
I think there's room for him?
My venomthropes are converted chaos spawn (tentacles only) with hormagaunt heads.
A standard venomthrope can fit under a skyshield. A zoanthrope cannot - but the venomthrope is better if it's behind one of the legs so the enemy cannot draw LOS to them.
Ventus wrote: How does a venomthrope fit under a skyshield?
I think there's room for him?
My venomthropes are converted chaos spawn (tentacles only) with hormagaunt heads.
Always good to learn of converted Venomthropes. Mine are 2nd edition Zoanthropes with Lash Whips for hands. I figure the big heads can be all toxic and spore producing.
But yeah, you can fit a lot under a skyshield. But not Zoeys. If you want to fit Zoeys under one you might want to get 2nd ed. Zoeys.
Since I have an aversion to FMCs (transporting lots of them is a pain), today's game was an experiment with Walkrants, specifically the Tyrant Node. One thing I've noticed is that there's no restriction that prevents you using the formation's Tyrant Guard with another Tyrant from your primary detachment. So with that in mind, my Warlord effectively had 10 wounds to play with...
My opponent was using a Dark Angels gunline, with 2 Tac squads, a command squad and the bolter banner all behind an aegis line with a quad gun. That was supported by 2 predators, a FW relic scorpius whirlwind (very nasty), dreadnought, and a GK contingent with Coteaz and a Dreadknight.
I fit the formation Walkrant for longer range supporting fire and kept him back a bit, his 18" synapse really helping there. I threw in a Trygon Prime as some tough backup synapse, although thanks to Coteaz I didn't bother deep-striking it and instead used him as mobile cover for the warlord. Most other choices were intended to be an advancing gunline, with Hormagaunts there just because I like them. Between my psykers I was lucky enough to roll 2 Paroxsym and a Catalyst. Paroxsym was essential in keeping those Tac squads (and the quad gun) useless at BS1/2 as I advanced, and it helped that my opponent didn't manage a single DtW.
Once I was within 18" it all came down to attrition. The Exocrine and Fex made short work of the Dreadnought and Dreadknight, while the rest of my army ground through marines (the trouble with Paroxysm is my opponent has no reason not to Go to Ground... 2+ cover saves are fun!). He desperately tried to burn through the Warlord's unit, but Shrouded and Catalyst made that really frustrating. The Trygon minced the predators in melee, and the Hive Guard used their aiming shenanigans to pick off Coteaz's remaining henchmen holding an objective behind a building. Coteaz himself made a hilarious suicide charge on a Tyrant... but failed to ID it and was promptly splattered.
Going into my final turn, the game was tied with equal objectives, myself with Linebreaker and my opponent with First Blood. In his attempt to win with Slay the Warlord, the Tyrant Guard were all dead, but the Walkrant was still standing with 2 wounds. The unlikely star of the game was... the Hormagaunts! Five of them survived to get around and behind the Aegis line, charging the last Tac squad from the side. Between the pile-in move and killing 1 marine, it was enough to pull them off their last objective. Om nom nom.
xttz wrote: Since I have an aversion to FMCs (transporting lots of them is a pain), today's game was an experiment with Walkrants, specifically the Tyrant Node. One thing I've noticed is that there's no restriction that prevents you using the formation's Tyrant Guard with another Tyrant from your primary detachment. So with that in mind, my Warlord effectively had 10 wounds to play with...
My opponent was using a Dark Angels gunline, with 2 Tac squads, a command squad and the bolter banner all behind an aegis line with a quad gun. That was supported by 2 predators, a FW relic scorpius whirlwind (very nasty), dreadnought, and a GK contingent with Coteaz and a Dreadknight.
I fit the formation Walkrant for longer range supporting fire and kept him back a bit, his 18" synapse really helping there. I threw in a Trygon Prime as some tough backup synapse, although thanks to Coteaz I didn't bother deep-striking it and instead used him as mobile cover for the warlord. Most other choices were intended to be an advancing gunline, with Hormagaunts there just because I like them. Between my psykers I was lucky enough to roll 2 Paroxsym and a Catalyst. Paroxsym was essential in keeping those Tac squads (and the quad gun) useless at BS1/2 as I advanced, and it helped that my opponent didn't manage a single DtW.
Once I was within 18" it all came down to attrition. The Exocrine and Fex made short work of the Dreadnought and Dreadknight, while the rest of my army ground through marines (the trouble with Paroxysm is my opponent has no reason not to Go to Ground... 2+ cover saves are fun!). He desperately tried to burn through the Warlord's unit, but Shrouded and Catalyst made that really frustrating. The Trygon minced the predators in melee, and the Hive Guard used their aiming shenanigans to pick off Coteaz's remaining henchmen holding an objective behind a building. Coteaz himself made a hilarious suicide charge on a Tyrant... but failed to ID it and was promptly splattered.
Going into my final turn, the game was tied with equal objectives, myself with Linebreaker and my opponent with First Blood. In his attempt to win with Slay the Warlord, the Tyrant Guard were all dead, but the Walkrant was still standing with 2 wounds. The unlikely star of the game was... the Hormagaunts! Five of them survived to get around and behind the Aegis line, charging the last Tac squad from the side. Between the pile-in move and killing 1 marine, it was enough to pull them off their last objective. Om nom nom.
Very nice and different list! Glad to see some different playstyle can still do well.
xttz wrote: Since I have an aversion to FMCs (transporting lots of them is a pain), today's game was an experiment with Walkrants, specifically the Tyrant Node. One thing I've noticed is that there's no restriction that prevents you using the formation's Tyrant Guard with another Tyrant from your primary detachment. So with that in mind, my Warlord effectively had 10 wounds to play with...
xttz wrote: Since I have an aversion to FMCs (transporting lots of them is a pain), today's game was an experiment with Walkrants, specifically the Tyrant Node. One thing I've noticed is that there's no restriction that prevents you using the formation's Tyrant Guard with another Tyrant from your primary detachment. So with that in mind, my Warlord effectively had 10 wounds to play with...
xttz wrote: Since I have an aversion to FMCs (transporting lots of them is a pain), today's game was an experiment with Walkrants, specifically the Tyrant Node. One thing I've noticed is that there's no restriction that prevents you using the formation's Tyrant Guard with another Tyrant from your primary detachment. So with that in mind, my Warlord effectively had 10 wounds to play with...
Why run a 2nd walkrant? Wouldn't a 2nd Carnifex do the same damage? Have you considered adding biovores for a living artillery formation?
The second walkrant was for the synapse node, tyrant guard for the primary tyrant, and access to more venomthropes.
I understand the walkrant for the Tyrant Node, but it seems like a Tyranid prime would make a better warlord. Give your formation Tyrant Hive commander, and then you could outflank the prime with the TGaunts. I guess I wasn't thinking it through completely. A Tyranid Prime wouldn't save enough points to get you a 2nd Carnifex or 3 biovores.
xttz wrote: Since I have an aversion to FMCs (transporting lots of them is a pain), today's game was an experiment with Walkrants, specifically the Tyrant Node. One thing I've noticed is that there's no restriction that prevents you using the formation's Tyrant Guard with another Tyrant from your primary detachment. So with that in mind, my Warlord effectively had 10 wounds to play with...
Why run a 2nd walkrant? Wouldn't a 2nd Carnifex do the same damage? Have you considered adding biovores for a living artillery formation?
The second walkrant was for the synapse node, tyrant guard for the primary tyrant, and access to more venomthropes.
I understand the walkrant for the Tyrant Node, but it seems like a Tyranid prime would make a better warlord. Give your formation Tyrant Hive commander, and then you could outflank the prime with the TGaunts. I guess I wasn't thinking it through completely. A Tyranid Prime wouldn't save enough points to get you a 2nd Carnifex or 3 biovores.
Yeah, I also wanted to find points enough to double the Dakkafex. But the only easy savings is dropping the Exocrene, and I don't see that as a good move, extra because you're going up against MEQ...
tag8833 wrote: I understand the walkrant for the Tyrant Node, but it seems like a Tyranid prime would make a better warlord. Give your formation Tyrant Hive commander, and then you could outflank the prime with the TGaunts. I guess I wasn't thinking it through completely. A Tyranid Prime wouldn't save enough points to get you a 2nd Carnifex or 3 biovores.
I really struggle to justify a Prime in a list over a Tyrant. All you really get is the synapse, no psychic rolls (which made the game for me here) and no TLDevs or HVC. Both Tyrants more than pulled their weight in shooting alone, let alone Paroxsym / Catalyst. A Walkrant with 3 guards is also arguably more durable than a Prime in guants, and I had to take the guards.
tag8833 wrote: Why run a 2nd walkrant? Wouldn't a 2nd Carnifex do the same damage? Have you considered adding biovores for a living artillery formation?
My Biovores are still a work in progress I'm converting up some old 2E-style ones and the last one just arrived from ebay at the weekend. I'll probably run Living Artillery as soon as I can.
Honestly, I think if anything I'd run a 3rd Tyrant to improve that list, probably replacing the Zoans / Trygon. I'd also field them all with the HVC / Dev combo, as I struggled for high strength shooting at times. My opponent did well with keeping his AV13 facings toward my massed S6, forcing it to shoot elsewhere. Plus more psychic rolls never hurt.
I would only recommend a Prime in a Swarm list, where reliable Synapse is massively important, or if you're attaching it to a Venomthrope and sticking it in a Bastion. Even then, I'd only recommend it as part of a Synaptic Swarm, so it isn't taking up an HQ slot.
It was so many models though I'll probably never play it again.
Good job on the win -- Endless swarm was one of my early favorites when the formations started coming out. The best part is it's easy to run at low points levels, or you can ramp up with brood sizes and upgrades for larger games.
I've found that it almost always requires one or two trygon tunnels to function late-game, especially if your termagants have devourers on them. Do you feel having a mid-table entry point would have assisted your efforts vs the O'Vesa Star?
It was so many models though I'll probably never play it again.
Good job on the win -- Endless swarm was one of my early favorites when the formations started coming out. The best part is it's easy to run at low points levels, or you can ramp up with brood sizes and upgrades for larger games.
I've found that it almost always requires one or two trygon tunnels to function late-game, especially if your termagants have devourers on them. Do you feel having a mid-table entry point would have assisted your efforts vs the O'Vesa Star?
Absolutely...especially as I was playing the (single objective mission...which was promptly ignored) and the relic as secondary...
Ovesa is brutal...killing a unit a turn...but having the tervigon and a zoey brood with catalyst was huge!
I think that I actually would have performed much better if I had taken 2 endless swarms with minimum sized units instead of 1 with max sized units...then there would have been a lot more surviving gants due to min squad overkill.
ductvader wrote: Absolutely...especially as I was playing the (single objective mission...which was promptly ignored) and the relic as secondary...
Ovesa is brutal...killing a unit a turn...but having the tervigon and a zoey brood with catalyst was huge!
I think that I actually would have performed much better if I had taken 2 endless swarms with minimum sized units instead of 1 with max sized units...then there would have been a lot more surviving gants due to min squad overkill.
How did you equip your gaunts, did they have much in the way of upgrades? Were there any units you really struggled against?
I'm considering running something like this next week, based on your list:
Spoiler:
New List: 1850 pts
----- HQ -------------------------------
1. Tyranid Prime* (125pts)
- 1x Tyranid Prime
2. Tyranid Prime* (125pts)
- 1x Tyranid Prime
Honestly, I think the biggest liability here are the Warriors. They're so easy to take out, and don't have much killing power. I wonder if it's worth just taking 2x10 Termas as the Troops and using the points elsewhere.
MSU is the tactical response to a Deathstar meta, because of that exact reason. Overkill. That shouldn't be a thing in 40k, but currently it is. Swamping the table with lots of individual targets means the enemy can't engage them all, then what's remaining can gang-up on the enemy deathstar (or other units) when they make their way there.
I'm considering running something like this next week, based on your list:
*snip*
Honestly, I think the biggest liability here are the Warriors. They're so easy to take out, and don't have much killing power. I wonder if it's worth just taking 2x10 Termas as the Troops and using the points elsewhere.
Consider the fact that the warrior broods are "leading" the army from behind. They're going to be behind terrain, hopefully mostly LOS blocking, spurring the gribbling masses forward to choke the guns of the enemy. If it goes according to plan once the Trygons are in the enemy back field and the respawning gants and gaunts are coming back right in their face, the warriors will honestly become low-priority targets because of all the other crap they'll have to be dealing with, or because their heavy supports are tied in CC/dead/etc.
Suddenly that 3-warrior brood wins you the game because they're holding a midfield objective, while your termagants get one in your home DZ and everything in your enemy's DZ is either contested or held by your respawning gribbles.
I admit to being very fond of Zoey(s) what is a better use of an Elite slot?
...that can be a gift wrapped "First Blood". I don't think its good to say something is a bad use of the slot, when what you want to say is "Don't use Elite slots, 'cause they're "not good" ".
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I really don't see any serious issues at all. I agree that Winged Tyrants do much better when used conservativly. Good luck, and good hunting! 
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