Manfred von Drakken wrote: I don't know if anyone else caught it, but with Engagement Range including a 5" vertical, Chaos/Imperial Knights can now kick Infantry hanging out on the second (and possibly third) floor of buildings.
Aaaaaaand now I’m imaging a Titan roundhouse kicking a building.
Running two footed kick through the window.
Never forget, this is what titan fights are about
The ugliness of those old imperial armor cast titans...to quote Cador from Helsreach, "Let me end it, it's existence offends me"
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MajorWesJanson wrote: I'm hoping for the stompa kit to get a couple sprues added for more weapon and head options, and a rework of the datasheet. Maybe next time orks get a model pass.
Dude, you're going to enjoy the Ork update in 2033 then.
PiñaColada wrote: Hey, GW were gracious enough to keep the stompa at 905/915 points. That means you can legally put it into your reinforcements since it's less than half your army -and- it'll only cost you 5CP to do so!
Meanwhile the imperial castellan is at 630pts laughing at the stompa....
I don’t want to sound crazy it’s almost like GW has this inherent imperial bias...
Like somehow
Marines
Custodes
Astra militarum
Ad mech
Heck to a degree knights (imperial only) as well
All got better and most other armies got curb stomped...
I play guard too so It’s likely just shelve those orks for Guard this edition or until a new codex drops.
But guard have the cheapest strongest troops and thier special weapons all dropped in price, thier artillery is better overall and they aren’t even the strongest army this edition. A nice soup filler still though. Can’t wait to see all those improved FW goodies for guard, marines and custodes...
(Necrons should be fine especially after the first 9th Ed codex drops With some extra extra rules for them tacked on)
I'm 99% sure thats a typo all be it a massive one but still a typo as aint nobody wanting 600 point castellen in the game.
Wasn't the points decided by independent play testers? If so, what's GW got to do with it?
The armor cast titans were licensed from GW, so they are GW titans not armorcast designs. The titan designs that came after those and before the current are truly painful. These I like, but I am old.
I don't see how "PL is bad because it's unbalanced" is inconsistent with "these new points values are unbalanced too." Unfortunately, just because GW fails at using one metric to create balanced games doesn't mean it can't also fail when using another metric.
It'd be one thing if these seemed to be the pinnacle of points perfection (and then people complained), but the reaction is leaning hard the other direction.
Points poorly performed provide a poor plea to Power.
Voss wrote: Does it matter if anyone is saying it?
It'd be one thing if these seemed to be the pinnacle of points perfection (and then people complained), but the reaction is leaning hard the other direction.
Points poorly performed provide a poor plea to Power.
This honestly now looks more like deliberately sabotaging Points to say use PL no different anyway. When you reduce things to multiples of 5 then 10 and PL is in multiples of 20 points.
It does make the potential granularity of points less useful for balance.
It means you could see it would be the superior system and decieded to deliberately destroy the system as part of a managment strategy.
Do we know if the new FW book will contain 40k rules for the ad mech units that was supposedly receiving rules when Alan was writing fires over cyraxus
In all reality, are the current points that big of a deal? How many events are people playing right now. Surely just getting in some games at the moment to try out the new rules should be the focus, and figuring out how your army plays around the new mission formats. Points will change at some point I'm sure, but this is some novel territory as GW release a brand new edition at a time when people aren't playing a lot of games. It's quite unique really.
They've supposedly been testing it for over a year. But more importantly, the main reason people are perplexed here is because the approach they took to the points here is a huge step backwards from what they did just 8 months ago in CA2019. Those points adjustments may not have been perfect, but they're a hell of a lot better than the junk they gave us in this update - better proofread, too, incidentally.
It is 100% clear this was "run the old points through a formula then nerf a few things to make it look like we were paying attention to individual units." There is no possible way they actually thought that Howling Banshees and Striking Scorpions were the units in the Eldar Codex that needed the biggest nerfs.
None of this has anything at all to do with a new edition or a pandemic. It's just lazy spread-sheet based updating.
Voss wrote: Does it matter if anyone is saying it?
It'd be one thing if these seemed to be the pinnacle of points perfection (and then people complained), but the reaction is leaning hard the other direction.
Points poorly performed provide a poor plea to Power.
This honestly now looks more like deliberately sabotaging Points to say use PL no different anyway. When you reduce things to multiples of 5 then 10 and PL is in multiples of 20 points.
It does make the potential granularity of points less useful for balance.
It means you could see it would be the superior system and decieded to deliberately destroy the system as part of a managment strategy.
Problem is that PL still doesn't change whether I have a bolter or a lascannon
gungo wrote: Do we know if the new FW book will contain 40k rules for the ad mech units that was supposedly receiving rules when Alan was writing fires over cyraxus
Probably?
This is about what to expect, if it happens. It is worth mentioning that we're pretty likely to see it, seeing as how the Dunerider and Transvector both allow for "Secutarii" to be transported.
gungo wrote: Do we know if the new FW book will contain 40k rules for the ad mech units that was supposedly receiving rules when Alan was writing fires over cyraxus
Probably?
This is about what to expect, if it happens. It is worth mentioning that we're pretty likely to see it, seeing as how the Dunerider and Transvector both allow for "Secutarii" to be transported.
I dunno I haven’t seen anything since and Alan book is now vaporware... this new index is likely just a quick redo looking at the effort put into points and FAQs mistakes. Considering I don’t see a lot of points leaked in the CA book.. they might just not include all those heresy units in 40k because the effort is to much. However they would give ad mech a lot of cool new robots and transports and a few superheavies to play with.
Honestly, the big thing is to not consider them as "indices" but rather "supplements". They showed a mock-up of the Marines one last year, and the thing looked beefy.
Obviously not every single unit will make the jump(some stuff frankly should not, since it was tied to the Traitor Legions or the Loyalists), but there's enough stuff that it would be serviceable alongside of fluff as a full book.
yukishiro1 wrote: I don't see how "PL is bad because it's unbalanced" is inconsistent with "these new points values are unbalanced too." Unfortunately, just because GW fails at using one metric to create balanced games doesn't mean it can't also fail when using another metric.
Correct. Which means what about what you guys are seeking from GW and 40K?
yukishiro1 wrote: I don't see how "PL is bad because it's unbalanced" is inconsistent with "these new points values are unbalanced too." Unfortunately, just because GW fails at using one metric to create balanced games doesn't mean it can't also fail when using another metric.
Correct. Which means what about what you guys are seeking from GW and 40K?
That they failed. Egregiously. Even just reverting the changes would be better.
bullyboy wrote: In all reality, are the current points that big of a deal? How many events are people playing right now. Surely just getting in some games at the moment to try out the new rules should be the focus, and figuring out how your army plays around the new mission formats. Points will change at some point I'm sure, but this is some novel territory as GW release a brand new edition at a time when people aren't playing a lot of games. It's quite unique really.
The pandemic is out of GW's control. Unit pricing in 40k is fully 100% up to GW. The former in no way excuses GW's over 30 years of incompetence.
yukishiro1 wrote: I don't see how "PL is bad because it's unbalanced" is inconsistent with "these new points values are unbalanced too." Unfortunately, just because GW fails at using one metric to create balanced games doesn't mean it can't also fail when using another metric.
Correct. Which means what about what you guys are seeking from GW and 40K?
Nothing. It just means you're drawing false conclusions.
I get it. You prefer chicken to beef. But a frozen Steak-umm left to warm to room temperature doesn't prove your taste is superior, or even applicable to anyone else.
Kanluwen wrote: Honestly, the big thing is to not consider them as "indices" but rather "supplements". They showed a mock-up of the Marines one last year, and the thing looked beefy.
Obviously not every single unit will make the jump(some stuff frankly should not, since it was tied to the Traitor Legions or the Loyalists), but there's enough stuff that it would be serviceable alongside of fluff as a full book.
I don't remember seeing that, got a link please Kan?
And the csm book better be pretty damned good considering the disparity in points we've seen so far:
bullyboy wrote: In all reality, are the current points that big of a deal? How many events are people playing right now. Surely just getting in some games at the moment to try out the new rules should be the focus, and figuring out how your army plays around the new mission formats. Points will change at some point I'm sure, but this is some novel territory as GW release a brand new edition at a time when people aren't playing a lot of games. It's quite unique really.
The pandemic is out of GW's control. Unit pricing in 40k is fully 100% up to GW. The former in no way excuses GW's over 30 years of incompetence.
My point is that people are freaking out about points at a time when many people just aren't playing anyway. It's not like there is a huge tournament in 2 weeks and your army has now been nerfed heavily. People will have time to play out all the units with garagehammer and get a better idea how they function in 9th.
Of course, the flipside to this is that due to the lack of games played, it might be a long time before glaring oversights or errors are addressed.
bullyboy wrote: My point is that people are freaking out about points at a time when many people just aren't playing anyway. It's not like there is a huge tournament in 2 weeks and your army has now been nerfed heavily. People will have time to play out all the units with garagehammer and get a better idea how they function in 9th.
Of course, the flipside to this is that due to the lack of games played, it might be a long time before glaring oversights or errors are addressed.
I get what you are saying, but this is a product that we pay money for. Just because a lot of people are restriced in their gaming, doesn't make their concerns for what they feel is a substandard product any less valid.
Plus, you know it's going to be like this for a while. At least I would be shocked if it wasn't.
I guarantee you the vast majority of the glaring oversights and errors were raised by playtesters and GW just didn't bother to do anything about them.
Best case scenario is we get a day-1 FAQ on CA2020 that fixes the super stupid stuff. But I'm not holding my breath, because if they didn't bother to fix it before, why would they suddenly start to care about it now?
GW has accomplished an amazing PR trick though in convincing a large percentage of its fanbase that it is too much to expect them to proofread their books before sending them to the printer.
bullyboy wrote: In all reality, are the current points that big of a deal? How many events are people playing right now. Surely just getting in some games at the moment to try out the new rules should be the focus, and figuring out how your army plays around the new mission formats. Points will change at some point I'm sure, but this is some novel territory as GW release a brand new edition at a time when people aren't playing a lot of games. It's quite unique really.
People are singularly focused on the weird looking things and failing to assess the points in context of the new edition. Both the missions and detachments drastically change a lot about how you approach an army.
I get what you are saying, but this is a product that we pay money for. Just because a lot of people are restriced in their gaming, doesn't make their concerns for what they feel is a substandard product any less valid.
Plus, you know it's going to be like this for a while. At least I would be shocked if it wasn't.
I think I'm slipping into acceptance though.
Too many are judging it without using it though. What might look terrible on paper for 8th might be the right thing for 9th and the only way to find out is to kick off some garagehammer for now.
yukishiro1 wrote: I don't see how "PL is bad because it's unbalanced" is inconsistent with "these new points values are unbalanced too." Unfortunately, just because GW fails at using one metric to create balanced games doesn't mean it can't also fail when using another metric.
Correct. Which means what about what you guys are seeking from GW and 40K?
That they failed. Egregiously. Even just reverting the changes would be better.
When has it ever really been good? When beyond a brief moment or two in its history has 40K balance been really good or even seemingly a focus for GW? The player base can't even agree on what balance is. A player of a given army might complain about a codex's terrible internal balance even as a more competitive player only interested in cherry-picking calls it a good one based on two or three units. You can say 'roll it back' but in doing that there would still be stuff that *completely sucks*. Often they aren't getting external OR internal balance right. They *could* do a better job if that was the focus. It would mean structuring and marketing the game differently, but they could do it. GW itself has made and currently makes better balanced games. But 40K has always been something to do with cool models that have a cool background.
How can you guys act surprised by this over and over again? There is no spoon. gak, forget about points and balance -- I've been waiting for 20-something years for my Tyranids to again *play* like the fast and deadly swarm they were when I first started them. LOL. Or at least would be waiting if I hadn't packed up my thousands and thousands of points in boxes a few years back. I got disgusted by the merry-go-round. So I'm off it and it feels good. 40K is something I play with my kid...I paint up new models and goof around with it and it works really well for that. I can't imagine being in the current tournament scene and chasing that gak again with the current game.
AT is my #1 GW game now and it scratches my itch. Great models but not too many required. More expensive than a skirmish game but cheaper than 40K for sure. Same universe. Alternating activation, maneuver that matters, positioning that matters, and games being won on the tabletop, not because of listbuilding and CCG-like combos. But hell, if people love and are happy with 40K as is, then power to 'em. It just doesn't seem like some of you are very happy. And at that point the issue becomes about you and your actions and not GW's fairly consistent approach to the game since 1987.
Kanluwen wrote: Honestly, the big thing is to not consider them as "indices" but rather "supplements". They showed a mock-up of the Marines one last year, and the thing looked beefy.
Obviously not every single unit will make the jump(some stuff frankly should not, since it was tied to the Traitor Legions or the Loyalists), but there's enough stuff that it would be serviceable alongside of fluff as a full book.
I don't remember seeing that, got a link please Kan?
And the csm book better be pretty damned good considering the disparity in points we've seen so far:
yukishiro1 wrote: But I'm not holding my breath, because if they didn't bother to fix it before, why would they suddenly start to care about it now?
GW has accomplished an amazing PR trick though in convincing a large percentage of its fanbase that it is too much to expect them to proofread their books before sending them to the printer.
They're so beyond a sane schedule. If the FAQs were written in September and playtesting started in earnest in December then that means they were pumping this out alongside all the marine books, PA books, and CK along with the Fall FAQ and CA19 (oh and slap in the FW rewrite).
GW continually fixed things that were broken, but each new release presented its own challenge to the system at the time and sometimes you need a book to be out there long enough so you don't make knee-jerk descisions.
bullyboy wrote: In all reality, are the current points that big of a deal? How many events are people playing right now. Surely just getting in some games at the moment to try out the new rules should be the focus, and figuring out how your army plays around the new mission formats. Points will change at some point I'm sure, but this is some novel territory as GW release a brand new edition at a time when people aren't playing a lot of games. It's quite unique really.
The pandemic is out of GW's control. Unit pricing in 40k is fully 100% up to GW. The former in no way excuses GW's over 30 years of incompetence.
If you love chocolate ice cream but have been frequenting a shop that only sells vanilla for 30 years...who's at fault?
Kanluwen wrote: Honestly, the big thing is to not consider them as "indices" but rather "supplements". They showed a mock-up of the Marines one last year, and the thing looked beefy.
Obviously not every single unit will make the jump(some stuff frankly should not, since it was tied to the Traitor Legions or the Loyalists), but there's enough stuff that it would be serviceable alongside of fluff as a full book.
I don't remember seeing that, got a link please Kan?
And the csm book better be pretty damned good considering the disparity in points we've seen so far:
bullyboy wrote: In all reality, are the current points that big of a deal? How many events are people playing right now. Surely just getting in some games at the moment to try out the new rules should be the focus, and figuring out how your army plays around the new mission formats. Points will change at some point I'm sure, but this is some novel territory as GW release a brand new edition at a time when people aren't playing a lot of games. It's quite unique really.
The pandemic is out of GW's control. Unit pricing in 40k is fully 100% up to GW. The former in no way excuses GW's over 30 years of incompetence.
My point is that people are freaking out about points at a time when many people just aren't playing anyway. It's not like there is a huge tournament in 2 weeks and your army has now been nerfed heavily. People will have time to play out all the units with garagehammer and get a better idea how they function in 9th.
Of course, the flipside to this is that due to the lack of games played, it might be a long time before glaring oversights or errors are addressed.
Yes, these points are perfectly fine if you don't play any games with them.
I think this is my favorite one so far. Keep 'em coming!
I think his point is that there is a difference between a technical difference and a functional difference.
If all you care about is something being technically true? then you are going to approach it one way.
If all you care about is something being functionally true? Then you are going to approach it another way.
So yes, the imbalance on paper seems to be pretty significant in a technical sense, but until we see it on the table, as well as any early corrections, it is premature to freak out. At least what I gathered from what they are saying rather than the strawman being presented.
Lets just say it is difficult to balance 1000s of variables that have to go into hundreds of situations.That's before separating it into internal balance and external balance. Not to mention the lore/thematic rules attached to specific armies etc all balanced around a d6 die roll.
I think GW did a fairly decent job with the indexs in 8th edition
Mind you they had to do some pretty quick 1-2 week faqs to fix a small handful of issues like razorwing spam but after fixing those 1-2 really bad units most index army were decent. Ya I realized they kept tweaking after that like multi nerfing conscripts but I still think they went overboard there too.
You don't need to play games to know typos are typos. Warp talons shouldn't be 27 points, that's obviously just a case of them making you pay twice for the claws.
You also don't need to play games to know that Scorpions that nobody used at 9 points are not going to suddenly become good when raised to 13 points.
I don't think it's too much to expect GW to either (1) proofread their own books or (2) listen to feedback from their playtesters who I am sure flagged this sort of stuff.
If GW is going to charge people money for updated points, it should at least do a halfways decent job at it.
yukishiro1 wrote: You don't need to play games to know typos are typos.
Of course not, but for weeks now we've had a certain group keep moving the goal posts.
*GW reveals new rule*
"Wait for the full rules!"
*Full rules get leaked*
"Wait for the points values!"
*Points values get leaked*
"Wait for the FAQs!"
*FAQs come out*
"You need to play real games!"
And on and on it goes...
I am usually in the 'wait and see' camp but yeah, at this point it is fair to call it for the most part. Sure the details may not all be figured, something may not be quite as bad or quite as good, but when you have obviously huge imbalances like grot=guardsman telling people voicing criticism that their conclusions are invalid becomes an insult.
bullyboy wrote: In all reality, are the current points that big of a deal? How many events are people playing right now. Surely just getting in some games at the moment to try out the new rules should be the focus, and figuring out how your army plays around the new mission formats. Points will change at some point I'm sure, but this is some novel territory as GW release a brand new edition at a time when people aren't playing a lot of games. It's quite unique really.
The pandemic is out of GW's control. Unit pricing in 40k is fully 100% up to GW. The former in no way excuses GW's over 30 years of incompetence.
My point is that people are freaking out about points at a time when many people just aren't playing anyway. It's not like there is a huge tournament in 2 weeks and your army has now been nerfed heavily. People will have time to play out all the units with garagehammer and get a better idea how they function in 9th.
Of course, the flipside to this is that due to the lack of games played, it might be a long time before glaring oversights or errors are addressed.
Yes, these points are perfectly fine if you don't play any games with them.
I think this is my favorite one so far. Keep 'em coming!
can't hide from the truth though!! Heck, GW is the most balanced game ever produced....if no one plays it. It's perfect.
But seriously, there are a few freakish outliers, but there are probably also some things that are stronger/worse in game than what first appears. Without the games, it's only speculation (although some speculation alsways turns out to be true when it comes to this stuff).
If GW was doing all this stuff for free it'd be one thing, but they aren't. GW doesn't do anything for free.
When a company is charging you money for something - and a lot of money, at that - it's fair to expect a basic level of competence and professionalism. When GW fails to meet those standards, it's fair to call them out for it.
yukishiro1 wrote: You don't need to play games to know typos are typos. Warp talons shouldn't be 27 points, that's obviously just a case of them making you pay twice for the claws.
You also don't need to play games to know that Scorpions that nobody used at 9 points are not going to suddenly become good when raised to 13 points.
I don't think it's too much to expect GW to either (1) proofread their own books or (2) listen to feedback from their playtesters who I am sure flagged this sort of stuff.
If GW is going to charge people money for updated points, it should at least do a halfways decent job at it.
Agreed on the Warp talons, that one is definitely off. As for Scorps, they got a points raise like most things, but it's not points that is hurting aspect warriors (in 8th and right now). They need some serious attention/help to matchup with newer units.
A 40% points increase certainly didn't help things, though. And again, it's something that anyone actually looking at the spreadsheet after they ran it through the formula would have spotted and said "whoa, wait a minute, there's no way this makes any kind of sense, our formula isn't producing valid results in this case." Anyone familiar with competitive Eldar could have and would have told them after 2 minutes of looking at the spreadsheet that that can't possibly be a fair valuation. So either nobody who had the faintest idea did look at it, or somebody did, told GW about it, and they just released it anyway. Either way, it's pretty damning.
Almost everything about these points is just so lazy.
Because you can’t reliably compare internal balance to external balance.
Something could be pretty balanced within its own book while being unbalanced against other books and vice versa. Unless you look at units, and the roles they fill in a complete list then it is an unreasonable comparison to make. Which is what I see a lot of the “wait and see” people advocating before going full doom and gloom. Cross book comparisons are not typically going to be useful since it doesn’t paint a very accurate picture. There are plenty of units that would be god mode in another book, but are mediocre in their own. External versus internal.
I personally accept that I don’t have enough experience with the missions, and how they play out, to even make a fully functional list right now. Top of turn combined with progressive scoring alone put everything up in the air to how you play the game.
We know there are errors, it’s a GW product, there always are. So lets take some time now, especially during the pandemic with no big tournaments anytime soon, to really try and see how it actually looks so we can give some constructive feedback and help make the edition better via valid comparisons. I don’t expect it to be balanced, I expect lots of things to be off, but that doesn’t mean I turn into a Karen about it.
Justyn wrote: I'm curious to know what you think they should be worth?
The common working theory with Warp Talons right now is that the person who fethed up wrote the points values put the lightning claws into their base cost, but then made them also have to pay for lightning claws. So basically take their current full points value, and remove the cost of the LC, and you get what they should be.
This theory exists because so many weapons were rolled into the base costs of units, that when something like the Warp Talon price comes along it tends to stick out.
bullyboy wrote: But seriously, there are a few freakish outliers, but there are probably also some things that are stronger/worse in game than what first appears. Without the games, it's only speculation (although some speculation alsways turns out to be true when it comes to this stuff).
Equally true is that units could be even worse/better than current estimates, or units not currently viewed to be a problem could turn out to be. The 'wait and see' element in this instance has two sides, only one of which certain people seem interested in acknowledging.
Justyn wrote: I'm curious to know what you think they should be worth?
The common working theory with Warp Talons right now is that the person who fethed up wrote the points values put the lightning claws into their base cost, but then made them also have to pay for lightning claws. So basically take their current full points value, and remove the cost of the LC, and you get what they should be.
This theory exists because so many weapons were rolled into the base costs of units, that when something like the Warp Talon price comes along it tends to stick out.
GW also terribly overprices ignoring Overwatch, which really isn't something to care about now even against Tau!
Justyn wrote: So they should be 17 points? For Jumping, Lightning Claw equipped, 5++ Marines. When Chaos Marines are 14 points and Raptors are 18. Interesting.
No. It seems like what likely happened is that 17 points was their rolled-in cost before the 9th edition adjustment, which would have ended up with them at 20 points if you look at intercessors.
27 points is an absolute joke, and 100% indicative of something going wrong in the formula. It's hard to say exactly what, but if GW really thought they should get an 8 points a model hike, we're in much bigger trouble than we think because that would mean they're in pants-on-head territory.
yukishiro1 wrote: You don't need to play games to know typos are typos.
Of course not, but for weeks now we've had a certain group keep moving the goal posts.
*GW reveals new rule*
"Wait for the full rules!"
*Full rules get leaked*
"Wait for the points values!"
*Points values get leaked*
"Wait for the FAQs!"
*FAQs come out*
"You need to play real games!"
And on and on it goes...
I start here and end here:
"You need to play real games!"
Which requires all of the above, which seems to be interpreted as goal post moving when it isn't.
But I do get a kick out of this:
Spoiler:
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NinthMusketeer wrote: I am usually in the 'wait and see' camp but yeah, at this point it is fair to call it for the most part. Sure the details may not all be figured, something may not be quite as bad or quite as good, but when you have obviously huge imbalances like grot=guardsman telling people voicing criticism that their conclusions are invalid becomes an insult.
I played 3 games against Orks. Grots (3 points at the time) were pretty much primary/secondary scoring MVPs.
That's where my position comes from.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Justyn wrote: So they should be 17 points? For Jumping, Lightning Claw equipped, 5++ Marines. When Chaos Marines are 14 points and Raptors are 18. Interesting.
bullyboy wrote: In all reality, are the current points that big of a deal? How many events are people playing right now. Surely just getting in some games at the moment to try out the new rules should be the focus, and figuring out how your army plays around the new mission formats. Points will change at some point I'm sure, but this is some novel territory as GW release a brand new edition at a time when people aren't playing a lot of games. It's quite unique really.
The pandemic is out of GW's control. Unit pricing in 40k is fully 100% up to GW. The former in no way excuses GW's over 30 years of incompetence.
My point is that people are freaking out about points at a time when many people just aren't playing anyway. It's not like there is a huge tournament in 2 weeks and your army has now been nerfed heavily. People will have time to play out all the units with garagehammer and get a better idea how they function in 9th.
Of course, the flipside to this is that due to the lack of games played, it might be a long time before glaring oversights or errors are addressed.
Right. You don't get to play so it's okay these points have no thought or real playtesting behind. Nevermind those who get to play in flgs and tournament.
... points are still fetched. First of all anything chaos has space marines either have the same of and pay 1ppm extra to add way better rules to, and access to at least as good stratagems to, or they have a plain better one of. My balancing solution is to flat out refuse to play space marine players until GW fixes it or unless I get a handicap. It would be great if space marine players would boycott space marine releases so that the rest of the Xenos could get their model lines updated... why aren’t we coordinating to make good changes for the hobby and game anyways?
Leth wrote: I think his point is that there is a difference between a technical difference and a functional difference.
If all you care about is something being technically true? then you are going to approach it one way.
If all you care about is something being functionally true? Then you are going to approach it another way.
So yes, the imbalance on paper seems to be pretty significant in a technical sense, but until we see it on the table, as well as any early corrections, it is premature to freak out. At least what I gathered from what they are saying rather than the strawman being presented.
Lets just say it is difficult to balance 1000s of variables that have to go into hundreds of situations.That's before separating it into internal balance and external balance. Not to mention the lore/thematic rules attached to specific armies etc all balanced around a d6 die roll.
Yet people correctly find out what's too good and junk before actually trying out. Even bad players.
Gw isn't about subtle tactics etc. It's list building.
And gw isn't trying for balance. It uses points and rules as marketing tool. Every time they change things it's to change what people buy. And to make sure it works they shout it out so loud even deaf hears it.
You can say wait and see but all it accomplishes is you being wrong.
yukishiro1 wrote: You don't need to play games to know typos are typos.
Of course not, but for weeks now we've had a certain group keep moving the goal posts.
*GW reveals new rule*
"Wait for the full rules!"
*Full rules get leaked*
"Wait for the points values!"
*Points values get leaked*
"Wait for the FAQs!"
*FAQs come out*
"You need to play real games!"
And on and on it goes...
We really need to wait until all the codices are redone. In fact, it's probably best to withhold judgement entirely until after the edition is over. Like 8th edition terrain rules - what were they thinking amirite? See? It's acceptable to complain about that now. Especially if it's something that 9th fixes. But 9th? We just have to WAIT AND SEE.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: We really need to wait until all the codices are redone. In fact, it's probably best to withhold judgement entirely until after the edition is over. Like 8th edition terrain rules - what were they thinking amirite? See? It's acceptable to complain about that now. Especially if it's something that 9th fixes. But 9th? We just have to WAIT AND SEE.
BRB guys. Gonna go buy stock in straw and poles. The market is booming!
Points aren't really a big deal - only for the most crazed competitive players who can't stand anything to stand in the way of their skills.
It just changes the meta on the competitive scene. The majority of players will still build their lists with what they like to play, and move on.
By the way, PL was always playable. It's just a lot of players tried to discredit it because they were so used to play with points they couldn't think of another way to build their list - and so kept showing wild examples of abuse to "prove" it can't work.
Of course it can work. And yes, it's not very accurate. But the small difference doesn't make the game unplayable, in reality.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: We really need to wait until all the codices are redone. In fact, it's probably best to withhold judgement entirely until after the edition is over. Like 8th edition terrain rules - what were they thinking amirite? See? It's acceptable to complain about that now. Especially if it's something that 9th fixes. But 9th? We just have to WAIT AND SEE.
Lets wait until 10th is announced to judge about 9th it see if it was worth the afford
For now, just continue to spend money on rules and models to show GW that their work is worth our money
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Sarouan wrote: Points aren't really a big deal - only for the most crazed competitive players who can't stand anything to stand in the way of their skills.
It just changes the meta on the competitive scene. The majority of players will still build their lists with what they like to play, and move on.
now I wonder how 1st Edition AoS failed so hard as the only thing missing was points
and if they are not a big deal why was it so important for the casual players that they made up their own points to play the game
the other thing is, we pay for points
it is not that they are offered for free but we pay for them and if a company want my money for something I want the product to be good
no other company would be able to sell a faulty product with the community cheering them for the afford as it is not a big deal anyway if it is working or not
I really wish our primary thread for reading about leaks and aggregating the latest spoiled content ... was not also the most toxic, chicken little-filled, place at the same time.
I understand that a lot of these folks think they’re posting ‘analysis’ but it’s the same thing over and over—this change is bad and GW is terrible and has always been terrible.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: We really need to wait until all the codices are redone. In fact, it's probably best to withhold judgement entirely until after the edition is over. Like 8th edition terrain rules - what were they thinking amirite? See? It's acceptable to complain about that now. Especially if it's something that 9th fixes. But 9th? We just have to WAIT AND SEE.
BRB guys. Gonna go buy stock in straw and poles. The market is booming!
Have you looked at politics lately? Naw man, those stocks went through the roof like 4 years ago. You missed the window.
Possibly. I've never used them, don't know what strats make them better etc. 27 makes them 2 points cheaper than Loyalist equivalents (Vanguard Vets with Lightning Claws) while having 1 attack less and none of the other Loyalist advantages. It seems like they should be cheaper than that, but not 17 points. It makes me wonder if when they priced them they looked at the points for a single Lightning Claw as opposed to two. I'd probably guess 22-24 seems about right. But again I've never used them.
Noise Marines also seem to be far too expensive. I think that however is endemic of making entirely too many cheap pieces of gear 5 points. Which to me is the worst mistake they have made in their new points setup.
sieGermans wrote: I really wish our primary thread for reading about leaks and aggregating the latest spoiled content ... was not also the most toxic, chicken little-filled, place at the same time.
I understand that a lot of these folks think they’re posting ‘analysis’ but it’s the same thing over and over—this change is bad and GW is terrible and has always been terrible.
100% this.
I just want to read this thread to catch up on some spoilers or leaks I might have missed.
I don't need to see people about points values constantly. Most of us just play with our friends, PL is more than good enough for that.
sieGermans wrote: I really wish our primary thread for reading about leaks and aggregating the latest spoiled content ... was not also the most toxic, chicken little-filled, place at the same time.
I understand that a lot of these folks think they’re posting ‘analysis’ but it’s the same thing over and over—this change is bad and GW is terrible and has always been terrible.
sieGermans wrote: I really wish our primary thread for reading about leaks and aggregating the latest spoiled content ... was not also the most toxic, chicken little-filled, place at the same time.
I understand that a lot of these folks think they’re posting ‘analysis’ but it’s the same thing over and over—this change is bad and GW is terrible and has always been terrible.
100% this.
I just want to read this thread to catch up on some spoilers or leaks I might have missed.
I don't need to see people about points values constantly. Most of us just play with our friends, PL is more than good enough for that.
great attitude! i dont care about X so why the should any of you?!
if you dont mind the points great for you. just dont assume you are the majority, and dont tell me i am not supposed to discuss something in a frikkin forum
and yes gretchin were maybe too good at 3 points but if raising them by 70% better throw them a bone too. 4 points should have done the trick... especially since orks only have TWO troop choices and do you know why nobody took boyz anymore??? because they suck! and they suck even more now... so orks are stuck between two sucky rocks and a hard place deprived of diversity and CP
and then there is the mekshop and stompa to add injury to the insult.
sieGermans wrote: I really wish our primary thread for reading about leaks and aggregating the latest spoiled content ... was not also the most toxic, chicken little-filled, place at the same time.
I understand that a lot of these folks think they’re posting ‘analysis’ but it’s the same thing over and over—this change is bad and GW is terrible and has always been terrible.
100% this.
I just want to read this thread to catch up on some spoilers or leaks I might have missed.
I don't need to see people about points values constantly. Most of us just play with our friends, PL is more than good enough for that.
Exactly! It’s not like there isn’t a thread for points discussion in 40k general discussion. Talking of rumours, someone posted this on an FB group I’m in yesterday, no idea if any of it’s true, but hey it’s a rumour at least.
Tiberius501 wrote: As much as I’d love to believe this, it smells so much like wish listing that I can’t. Would be very happy though if it were true.
It does a big doesn’t it. But I can see at least some of it happening. Such as the faction specific primaris kits. The various BA, SW and, DA tactical kits are some of the coolest models in the space marine range. Seems weird that such things weren’t pushed out for things like Blood of Baal and Saga of the Beast though.
Well I heard that SW, DA, and BA won't be getting codexes of their own anymore, just SM codex supplements like all the other first founding chapters...
Tiberius501 wrote: As much as I’d love to believe this, it smells so much like wish listing that I can’t. Would be very happy though if it were true.
It does a big doesn’t it. But I can see at least some of it happening. Such as the faction specific primaris kits. The various BA, SW and, DA tactical kits are some of the coolest models in the space marine range. Seems weird that such things weren’t pushed out for things like Blood of Baal and Saga of the Beast though.
Faction-specific kits would be amazing and also complete the de-blandification of Primaris that started with those Blade Guard guys. About time, really.
Tiberius501 wrote: As much as I’d love to believe this, it smells so much like wish listing that I can’t. Would be very happy though if it were true.
It does a big doesn’t it. But I can see at least some of it happening. Such as the faction specific primaris kits. The various BA, SW and, DA tactical kits are some of the coolest models in the space marine range. Seems weird that such things weren’t pushed out for things like Blood of Baal and Saga of the Beast though.
Faction-specific kits would be amazing and also complete the de-blandification of Primaris that started with those Blade Guard guys. About time, really.
How about we redo all the kits still in FAILCAST before we go making ever more primaris.
If you want to play marine lists vrs marine lists thats what Horus Heresy is about, stop turning 40k into play Primaris or GTF.
Tiberius501 wrote: As much as I’d love to believe this, it smells so much like wish listing that I can’t. Would be very happy though if it were true.
It does a big doesn’t it. But I can see at least some of it happening. Such as the faction specific primaris kits. The various BA, SW and, DA tactical kits are some of the coolest models in the space marine range. Seems weird that such things weren’t pushed out for things like Blood of Baal and Saga of the Beast though.
Faction-specific kits would be amazing and also complete the de-blandification of Primaris that started with those Blade Guard guys. About time, really.
How about we redo all the kits still in FAILCAST before we go making ever more primaris.
If you want to play marine lists vrs marine lists thats what Horus Heresy is about, stop turning 40k into play Primaris or GTF.
Look at it this way - when they round out marines enough to be brave and remove the old midget marines, that's going to be what, 40-50 kits just gone overnight? Primaris padding out is a necessary evil for them atm. Plus it's not like there's a humongous necron release or anything.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: So do we know if the rule of three is still in there, since you are actually penalized for taking multiple detachments now?
Yes. Detachments are limited by battle size and datasheets are now flat 3 regardlbss of game size. So much for gw's claim of scalable rules(well that claim was joke anyway)
Tiberius501 wrote: As much as I’d love to believe this, it smells so much like wish listing that I can’t. Would be very happy though if it were true.
It does a big doesn’t it. But I can see at least some of it happening. Such as the faction specific primaris kits. The various BA, SW and, DA tactical kits are some of the coolest models in the space marine range. Seems weird that such things weren’t pushed out for things like Blood of Baal and Saga of the Beast though.
Faction-specific kits would be amazing and also complete the de-blandification of Primaris that started with those Blade Guard guys. About time, really.
How about we redo all the kits still in FAILCAST before we go making ever more primaris.
If you want to play marine lists vrs marine lists thats what Horus Heresy is about, stop turning 40k into play Primaris or GTF.
Look at it this way - when they round out marines enough to be brave and remove the old midget marines, that's going to be what, 40-50 kits just gone overnight? Primaris padding out is a necessary evil for them atm. Plus it's not like there's a humongous necron release or anything.
I know I have probably 3-4 models/units I am not buying because they are still in failcast 10 years on.
While in that time GW have replace plastic marines with new plastics and now more plastuc chadmaris, not to mention the repulsive and the duplo drop box.
While we still have charictors for evry other faction in failcast, but what feels like 20 something primaris LT's
Aspect warriors oh yeah 1 kit that got put in a box that was so rediculously over priced it shockingly didnt sell.
Yet primaris get put in a box where their kits individually would cost more than the RRP of the boxset.
Tiberius501 wrote: As much as I’d love to believe this, it smells so much like wish listing that I can’t. Would be very happy though if it were true.
It does a big doesn’t it. But I can see at least some of it happening. Such as the faction specific primaris kits. The various BA, SW and, DA tactical kits are some of the coolest models in the space marine range. Seems weird that such things weren’t pushed out for things like Blood of Baal and Saga of the Beast though.
Faction-specific kits would be amazing and also complete the de-blandification of Primaris that started with those Blade Guard guys. About time, really.
How about we redo all the kits still in FAILCAST before we go making ever more primaris.
If you want to play marine lists vrs marine lists thats what Horus Heresy is about, stop turning 40k into play Primaris or GTF.
I think people need to just accept that GW make most of their money on Marine kits, they know that they will all sell like hot cakes. I get that people desperately want plastic kits for things like Warp Spiders, or Biovores, I’d love to see how awesome plastic Phoenix Lords like Karandas and Asurmen would look. But at the end of the day GW are a business and they have to make money. They know most players have at least some marine models as they’ve been in every starter set. For most people marines were their gateway into the hobby, so they know that they’ll be able to sell loads of marine stuff. There’s really no point crying about it, as it won’t change anything.
It’s not like we haven’t had new plastic kits replacing finecast stuff anyway, banshees, Jain Zar, Incubi and Drazhar just recently. Plus a huge amount of new Cron stuff coming. Sure there are more frequent marine kits, but the way I see it, the sales of marine kits pay for the riskier kits that may take longer to make their money back.
Tiberius501 wrote: As much as I’d love to believe this, it smells so much like wish listing that I can’t. Would be very happy though if it were true.
It does a big doesn’t it. But I can see at least some of it happening. Such as the faction specific primaris kits. The various BA, SW and, DA tactical kits are some of the coolest models in the space marine range. Seems weird that such things weren’t pushed out for things like Blood of Baal and Saga of the Beast though.
Faction-specific kits would be amazing and also complete the de-blandification of Primaris that started with those Blade Guard guys. About time, really.
How about we redo all the kits still in FAILCAST before we go making ever more primaris.
If you want to play marine lists vrs marine lists thats what Horus Heresy is about, stop turning 40k into play Primaris or GTF.
I think people need to just accept that GW make most of their money on Marine kits, they know that they will all sell like hot cakes. I get that people desperately want plastic kits for things like Warp Spiders, or Biovores, I’d love to see how awesome plastic Phoenix Lords like Karandas and Asurmen would look. But at the end of the day GW are a business and they have to make money. They know most players have at least some marine models as they’ve been in every starter set. For most people marines were their gateway into the hobby, so they know that they’ll be able to sell loads of marine stuff. There’s really no point crying about it, as it won’t change anything.
It’s not like we haven’t had new plastic kits replacing finecast stuff anyway, banshees, Jain Zar, Incubi and Drazhar just recently. Plus a huge amount of new Cron stuff coming. Sure there are more frequent marine kits, but the way I see it, the sales of marine kits pay for the riskier kits that may take longer to make their money back.
Overall 8th already felt like it was very focused on Marine releases, even more than before. If they started with faction specific Primaris units now I think they'll really stretch the patience of their customers. I'm pretty sure it's coming at some point, but after the debacle of the Marine Codex and its supplements last year where they lost a lot of good will from the other 20 factions in the game I think releasing even more Marines could generate the next shitstorm for GW. And after the ridiculous App, strange points and Indomitus I don't think that's what they want to have right now.
Oguhmek wrote: Well I heard that SW, DA, and BA won't be getting codexes of their own anymore, just SM codex supplements like all the other first founding chapters...
with salt etc
There's nothing preventing SW, DA, and BA from getting turned into supplements with updated new unique units.
That's actually for the best as it allows any updates to the standard Space Marine units in the main codex to also carry over into the supplement versions without 4x the FAQs and having to print either updated codexes or additional books (like Psychic Awakening).
Oguhmek wrote: Well I heard that SW, DA, and BA won't be getting codexes of their own anymore, just SM codex supplements like all the other first founding chapters...
with salt etc
There's nothing preventing SW, DA, and BA from getting turned into supplements with updated new unique units.
That's actually for the best as it allows any updates to the standard Space Marine units in the main codex to also carry over into the supplement versions without 4x the FAQs and having to print either updated codexes or additional books (like Psychic Awakening).
I think people need to just accept that GW make most of their money on Marine kits, they know that they will all sell like hot cakes. I get that people desperately want plastic kits for things like Warp Spiders, or Biovores, I’d love to see how awesome plastic Phoenix Lords like Karandas and Asurmen would look. But at the end of the day GW are a business and they have to make money. They know most players have at least some marine models as they’ve been in every starter set. For most people marines were their gateway into the hobby, so they know that they’ll be able to sell loads of marine stuff. There’s really no point crying about it, as it won’t change anything.
It’s not like we haven’t had new plastic kits replacing finecast stuff anyway, banshees, Jain Zar, Incubi and Drazhar just recently. Plus a huge amount of new Cron stuff coming. Sure there are more frequent marine kits, but the way I see it, the sales of marine kits pay for the riskier kits that may take longer to make their money back.
Its almost like when GW ignores a model line for 20 years and doesnt support a faction, people stop buying said faction, and gw doesnt support said faction becuase people arent buying said faction... becuase they are too busy jerking out more primaris captains and lieutenant #592. Look at Dark eldar, they were stuck with a 2.5 edition codex all the way to fith edition, GW stores didnt even carry any stock of DE they were pretty much direct order only, and there were very few players, and after enough bitching they finally revitalized the line and it saw a decent resurgance, but have been plagued by terrible rules and poor balance.
Sisters of battle players were also in the same boat, a 2.5 edition codex all the way to 5th asking for new models / plastic models for 20 years and gw knew there was demand for it and guess what... they finally put some effort and relaunched the line and it sold like hot cakes... so its almost like... if gw put some money into fixing non space marine armies people might buy them again and gw would see people buying them and would put more money into it... but no instead they are stuck in a hell cycle of throwing 95% (arbitrary number) of their total resources at marines and wondering why so many people are pissed off that instead of fixing failcast, updating the eldar aspect warrior lines, <insert 20 year old model here> they are too busy replacing making the 593rd space marine character model or another unit of primaris marines.
While it was nice that banshees and the phoenix lord got new models, the rules were garbage becuase GW has no idea what they want to do with aspect warriors becuase they stole their identity and gave it to marines.
Its a complete joke that marines have more character that some armies have total units in their codex.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Overall 8th already felt like it was very focused on Marine releases, even more than before. If they started with faction specific Primaris units now I think they'll really stretch the patience of their customers. I'm pretty sure it's coming at some point, but after the debacle of the Marine Codex and its supplements last year where they lost a lot of good will from the other 20 factions in the game I think releasing even more Marines could generate the next shitstorm for GW. And after the ridiculous App, strange points and Indomitus I don't think that's what they want to have right now.
Was 8th Marine focused? Any more than previous editions. Off the top of my head, I can remember big releases for the following; Genestealer Cults, Eldar, Dark Eldar, tonnes of Chaos stuff finally updated, and new stuff, Slaaneshi Daemons, a bunch of Ork buggies etc, Admech, and plastic sisters.
but no instead they are stuck in a hell cycle of throwing 95% (arbitrary number) of their total resources at marines and wondering why so many people are pissed off that instead of fixing failcast, updating the eldar aspect warrior lines, <insert 20 year old model here> they are too busy replacing making the 593rd space marine character model or another unit of primaris marines.
I keep seeing people saying this, It’s not really an either/or though is it. GW clearly have a business plan regards to model release, they are very clearly updating/replacing finecast bit by bit. Some lines get massive updates like the Necrons, or Tau, others are being done piecemeal. Marine releases are their bread and butter, that’s what makes them the most profit. Of course that is where they will put the majority of their resources, what sensible business wouldn’t?
But hey, this is wildly off topic so I’m going to stop here.
As far as the rumours I posted go, I can see them being right, but I’d be very surprised if we didn’t see another big xenos release this edition. Necrons are getting pushed as the big villain for 9th, and the lore behind the silent king returning is him coming back to deal with the Nids. I can see the Nids getting updated because boy do they need it.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Overall 8th already felt like it was very focused on Marine releases, even more than before. If they started with faction specific Primaris units now I think they'll really stretch the patience of their customers. I'm pretty sure it's coming at some point, but after the debacle of the Marine Codex and its supplements last year where they lost a lot of good will from the other 20 factions in the game I think releasing even more Marines could generate the next shitstorm for GW. And after the ridiculous App, strange points and Indomitus I don't think that's what they want to have right now.
Was 8th Marine focused? Any more than previous editions. Off the top of my head, I can remember big releases for the following; Genestealer Cults, Eldar, Dark Eldar, tonnes of Chaos stuff finally updated, and new stuff, Slaaneshi Daemons, a bunch of Ork buggies etc, Admech, and plastic sisters.
Any more than previous editions? You kidding my dude?
in 7th, if I'm remembering correctly, we got the following for loyalist space marines:
-Deathwatch (which was 4 kits, veterans watch master artemis and flyer)
-A new flyer kit
-The new assault marine and devastator kits
-Guilliman and Gk grandmaster guy
-Space wolf wulfen, flyer, santa sleigh
Unless i'm forgetting something, that was all of 7th edition. Which I'd remind you was longer than 8th. I count 12 marine kits across all the marine sub-factions, counting the two loyalists in their triumvirate box as two kits.
Now let's look at 8th edition:
primaris wave 1, at the launch of the edition: Librarian, Apothecary, 2 captains, 4 lieutenants, Intercessors, Reivers, Repulsor, Hellblasters, Aggressors, Redemptor, Inceptors. So, 15.
Primaris wave 2, mid-edition: Another captain, another librarian, another lieutenant, calgar and his 2 buds, Khan, blood angel guy, dark angel guy, space wolf guy, shrike, iron father brokenos, imp fist fatso, salamander guy, eliminators, suppressors, invictus warsuit, inceptors/infiltrators, primaris rhino thingy. 17 kits. not counting the upgrade kits for every chapter.
Primaris wave 3, toward the end of the edition to now: Tigurius, ragnar, assault intercessors, eradicators, blade veterans, blade veteran ancient, primario kart, primaris bikers, primaris techmarine, primaris turret with the dude on it, primaris drop pod turret. 11 kits that we know of so far.
so that's....forty-three, I think?
compare to the sisters "entire army relaunch" they did: Rhino, Immolator, Exorcist, Sisters squad, repentia, seraphim, arco-flags, retributors, hospitallier, dialogus, canoness, pen engine, triumph, lady in a big pulpit thingy, banner lady. 15 kits.
If you remember "big releases for eldar and dark eldar" which were both count 'em one kit and one character, and you don't remember that we had three waves of primaris stuff the size of the sisters' entire model relaunch, I really gotta question your awareness.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Overall 8th already felt like it was very focused on Marine releases, even more than before. If they started with faction specific Primaris units now I think they'll really stretch the patience of their customers. I'm pretty sure it's coming at some point, but after the debacle of the Marine Codex and its supplements last year where they lost a lot of good will from the other 20 factions in the game I think releasing even more Marines could generate the next shitstorm for GW. And after the ridiculous App, strange points and Indomitus I don't think that's what they want to have right now.
Was 8th Marine focused? Any more than previous editions. Off the top of my head, I can remember big releases for the following; Genestealer Cults, Eldar, Dark Eldar, tonnes of Chaos stuff finally updated, and new stuff, Slaaneshi Daemons, a bunch of Ork buggies etc, Admech, and plastic sisters.
Marines had about 30 new releases in 8th (going by what you can buy on the GW page now, doesn't include books), one could add all the lieutenants that aren't for sale on the GW page and also the SM heroes series.
Dark Eldar had 2
Eldar 2
Tau 1
Chaos Daemons 12
Admech 5
Orks: 8
Genestealers: Not familiar with them, don't know what was in 8th and what before
Death Guard: 20, but that includes all variants of Plague marines (which are 6 alone)
CSM: about 15, hard to count as there's a lot of units that aren't available on their own yet, but if you'd count those the Marine number would be much higher, too.
SoB: about 20
So, to conclude, the two factions that were made from scratch (SoB and Death Guard) might compete with Primaris (20 each compared to minimum 30(there are a lot of things ignored when counting Primaris while the numbers on the other factions are pretty exact)) - which were additions to the already largest and newest range in the game.
What makes the feeling about Primaris dominance even stronger is that they feature in most boxsets, had three waves compared to one of other factions and had a load of supplements while CSM for example, which got a pretty sizeable release, had their kits stuck to multipart in a starterbox and a lazy Codex 2.0 that included nothing more than a Vigilus patch.
8th edition has been in general much more prolific in miniature terms. You don't have to look at absolute numbers, but at relative ones.
7th had 12 marine kits, but also didn't have much else. A few tyranids monsters and a few more kits for the fall of Cadia. Admech were 6th or 7th?
8th had the primaries, but also the Orktober, the GSC, the sisters, some Aeldari, new greater demons, the rogue trader forces, new admech stuff, inquisitors and a lot more stuff which I'm sure I'm forgetting.
Not sure if the point stands, or even like this the marines are still hugely more represented, just pointing out that you are providing the wrong data.
Spoletta wrote: 8th edition has been in general much more prolific in miniature terms. You don't have to look at absolute numbers, but at relative ones.
7th had 12 marine kits, but also didn't have much else. A few tyranids monsters and a few more kits for the fall of Cadia. Admech were 6th or 7th?
8th had the primaries, but also the Orktober, the GSC, the sisters, some Aeldari, new greater demons, the rogue trader forces, new admech stuff, inquisitors and a lot more stuff which I'm sure I'm forgetting.
Not sure if the point stands, or even like this the marines are still hugely more represented, just pointing out that you are providing the wrong data.
See Cortez' reply regarding relative numbers of releases in 8th.
TBHGW is in general pumping out many more miniatures than before. I mean. In this past three years with 40k, AoS, Necromunda, Bloodbowl, Adeptus Titanicus, Aeronautica Imperialis, Blackstone Fortress, etc... they have produced more plastic kits than probably in the 10 years prior.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Overall 8th already felt like it was very focused on Marine releases, even more than before. If they started with faction specific Primaris units now I think they'll really stretch the patience of their customers. I'm pretty sure it's coming at some point, but after the debacle of the Marine Codex and its supplements last year where they lost a lot of good will from the other 20 factions in the game I think releasing even more Marines could generate the next shitstorm for GW. And after the ridiculous App, strange points and Indomitus I don't think that's what they want to have right now.
Was 8th Marine focused? Any more than previous editions. Off the top of my head, I can remember big releases for the following; Genestealer Cults, Eldar, Dark Eldar, tonnes of Chaos stuff finally updated, and new stuff, Slaaneshi Daemons, a bunch of Ork buggies etc, Admech, and plastic sisters.
Any more than previous editions? You kidding my dude?
in 7th, if I'm remembering correctly, we got the following for loyalist space marines:
-Deathwatch (which was 4 kits, veterans watch master artemis and flyer)
-A new flyer kit
-The new assault marine and devastator kits
-Guilliman and Gk grandmaster guy
-Space wolf wulfen, flyer, santa sleigh
Unless i'm forgetting something, that was all of 7th edition. Which I'd remind you was longer than 8th. I count 12 marine kits across all the marine sub-factions, counting the two loyalists in their triumvirate box as two kits.
Now let's look at 8th edition:
primaris wave 1, at the launch of the edition: Librarian, Apothecary, 2 captains, 4 lieutenants, Intercessors, Reivers, Repulsor, Hellblasters, Aggressors, Redemptor, Inceptors. So, 15.
Primaris wave 2, mid-edition: Another captain, another librarian, another lieutenant, calgar and his 2 buds, Khan, blood angel guy, dark angel guy, space wolf guy, shrike, iron father brokenos, imp fist fatso, salamander guy, eliminators, suppressors, invictus warsuit, inceptors/infiltrators, primaris rhino thingy. 17 kits. not counting the upgrade kits for every chapter.
Primaris wave 3, toward the end of the edition to now: Tigurius, ragnar, assault intercessors, eradicators, blade veterans, blade veteran ancient, primario kart, primaris bikers, primaris techmarine, primaris turret with the dude on it, primaris drop pod turret. 11 kits that we know of so far.
so that's....forty-three, I think?
compare to the sisters "entire army relaunch" they did: Rhino, Immolator, Exorcist, Sisters squad, repentia, seraphim, arco-flags, retributors, hospitallier, dialogus, canoness, pen engine, triumph, lady in a big pulpit thingy, banner lady. 15 kits.
If you remember "big releases for eldar and dark eldar" which were both count 'em one kit and one character, and you don't remember that we had three waves of primaris stuff the size of the sisters' entire model relaunch, I really gotta question your awareness.
People get so triggered about this.
Like I said, 8th wasn’t any more Marine focused than previous editions. You said yourself 7th was mostly Marine releases. We’ve had way more releases for other factions over the period of 8th edition. It’s obvious that GW are trying to replace finecast kits, but they aren’t going to stop releasing the stuff that makes them the most money.
Marines will always have their main attention, it’s never been any different, people need to get over this already.
I loved all those Tyranid releases in 8th and 7th.
Seriously eldar players know nothing of the horrors of failcast. You never had to suffer through resin venomthropes, lictors or warrior boneswords & lashwhips.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Overall 8th already felt like it was very focused on Marine releases, even more than before. If they started with faction specific Primaris units now I think they'll really stretch the patience of their customers. I'm pretty sure it's coming at some point, but after the debacle of the Marine Codex and its supplements last year where they lost a lot of good will from the other 20 factions in the game I think releasing even more Marines could generate the next shitstorm for GW. And after the ridiculous App, strange points and Indomitus I don't think that's what they want to have right now.
Was 8th Marine focused? Any more than previous editions. Off the top of my head, I can remember big releases for the following; Genestealer Cults, Eldar, Dark Eldar, tonnes of Chaos stuff finally updated, and new stuff, Slaaneshi Daemons, a bunch of Ork buggies etc, Admech, and plastic sisters.
Off the top of my head I remember that each time one of them got something, space marines got at least a single release on average. As a chaos player I am grateful for the chaos overhaul of the model line, but still... The fact that people are playing with models that are of drinking age (I’m looking at you Eldar) even though the entire space marine range is being overhauled with primaricrap equivalents.... and the blatant rules pandering to space marines, along with the fact that space marines sucked the flavor out of every other army... people are eventually going to get bored of seeing every game end with “and the space marines saved the day again!” Or eventually get bored of space marine vs space marine combat... Heck if I was a space marine player I don’t even know if I can stand flipping through the darn elites section of the codex. My head hurts just from seeing the massive roster of units there. They got more elites than some armies have codex entries. And they still add more... it’s exhausting to watch marines hijack the meta over and over again. And to see their roster grow bigger and bigger.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Overall 8th already felt like it was very focused on Marine releases, even more than before. If they started with faction specific Primaris units now I think they'll really stretch the patience of their customers. I'm pretty sure it's coming at some point, but after the debacle of the Marine Codex and its supplements last year where they lost a lot of good will from the other 20 factions in the game I think releasing even more Marines could generate the next shitstorm for GW. And after the ridiculous App, strange points and Indomitus I don't think that's what they want to have right now.
Was 8th Marine focused? Any more than previous editions. Off the top of my head, I can remember big releases for the following; Genestealer Cults, Eldar, Dark Eldar, tonnes of Chaos stuff finally updated, and new stuff, Slaaneshi Daemons, a bunch of Ork buggies etc, Admech, and plastic sisters.
Any more than previous editions? You kidding my dude?
in 7th, if I'm remembering correctly, we got the following for loyalist space marines:
-Deathwatch (which was 4 kits, veterans watch master artemis and flyer)
-A new flyer kit
-The new assault marine and devastator kits
-Guilliman and Gk grandmaster guy
-Space wolf wulfen, flyer, santa sleigh
Unless i'm forgetting something, that was all of 7th edition. Which I'd remind you was longer than 8th. I count 12 marine kits across all the marine sub-factions, counting the two loyalists in their triumvirate box as two kits.
Now let's look at 8th edition:
primaris wave 1, at the launch of the edition: Librarian, Apothecary, 2 captains, 4 lieutenants, Intercessors, Reivers, Repulsor, Hellblasters, Aggressors, Redemptor, Inceptors. So, 15.
Primaris wave 2, mid-edition: Another captain, another librarian, another lieutenant, calgar and his 2 buds, Khan, blood angel guy, dark angel guy, space wolf guy, shrike, iron father brokenos, imp fist fatso, salamander guy, eliminators, suppressors, invictus warsuit, inceptors/infiltrators, primaris rhino thingy. 17 kits. not counting the upgrade kits for every chapter.
Primaris wave 3, toward the end of the edition to now: Tigurius, ragnar, assault intercessors, eradicators, blade veterans, blade veteran ancient, primario kart, primaris bikers, primaris techmarine, primaris turret with the dude on it, primaris drop pod turret. 11 kits that we know of so far.
so that's....forty-three, I think?
compare to the sisters "entire army relaunch" they did: Rhino, Immolator, Exorcist, Sisters squad, repentia, seraphim, arco-flags, retributors, hospitallier, dialogus, canoness, pen engine, triumph, lady in a big pulpit thingy, banner lady. 15 kits.
If you remember "big releases for eldar and dark eldar" which were both count 'em one kit and one character, and you don't remember that we had three waves of primaris stuff the size of the sisters' entire model relaunch, I really gotta question your awareness.
People get so triggered about this.
Like I said, 8th wasn’t any more Marine focused than previous editions. You said yourself 7th was mostly Marine releases. We’ve had way more releases for other factions over the period of 8th edition. It’s obvious that GW are trying to replace finecast kits, but they aren’t going to stop releasing the stuff that makes them the most money.
Marines will always have their main attention, it’s never been any different, people need to get over this already.
I think you misunderstood Scotsman's point. Scotsman listed the new Marine kits in 7th... not the kits total. You had a large Tau refresh, Tyranids got some stuff right before the start, Harlequins, yadda yadda... in relative terms, way more of a Xenos-focused edition than 8th. If you won't acknowledge that then there's no point to even discuss.
If that was the case you wouldn't be posting big blocks of Math Hammer to "prove" your various points.
We can analyse units/weapons and so on by reading the rules for them because we have had the experience of playing games and because sometimes comparisons are bleedingly obvious.
Daedalus81 wrote: BRB guys. Gonna go buy stock in straw and poles. The market is booming!
You really don't get Doobie's post. That's fine. Most of the newer folk don't.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Overall 8th already felt like it was very focused on Marine releases, even more than before. If they started with faction specific Primaris units now I think they'll really stretch the patience of their customers. I'm pretty sure it's coming at some point, but after the debacle of the Marine Codex and its supplements last year where they lost a lot of good will from the other 20 factions in the game I think releasing even more Marines could generate the next shitstorm for GW. And after the ridiculous App, strange points and Indomitus I don't think that's what they want to have right now.
Was 8th Marine focused? Any more than previous editions. Off the top of my head, I can remember big releases for the following; Genestealer Cults, Eldar, Dark Eldar, tonnes of Chaos stuff finally updated, and new stuff, Slaaneshi Daemons, a bunch of Ork buggies etc, Admech, and plastic sisters.
Any more than previous editions? You kidding my dude?
in 7th, if I'm remembering correctly, we got the following for loyalist space marines:
-Deathwatch (which was 4 kits, veterans watch master artemis and flyer)
-A new flyer kit
-The new assault marine and devastator kits
-Guilliman and Gk grandmaster guy
-Space wolf wulfen, flyer, santa sleigh
Unless i'm forgetting something, that was all of 7th edition. Which I'd remind you was longer than 8th. I count 12 marine kits across all the marine sub-factions, counting the two loyalists in their triumvirate box as two kits.
Now let's look at 8th edition:
primaris wave 1, at the launch of the edition: Librarian, Apothecary, 2 captains, 4 lieutenants, Intercessors, Reivers, Repulsor, Hellblasters, Aggressors, Redemptor, Inceptors. So, 15.
Primaris wave 2, mid-edition: Another captain, another librarian, another lieutenant, calgar and his 2 buds, Khan, blood angel guy, dark angel guy, space wolf guy, shrike, iron father brokenos, imp fist fatso, salamander guy, eliminators, suppressors, invictus warsuit, inceptors/infiltrators, primaris rhino thingy. 17 kits. not counting the upgrade kits for every chapter.
Primaris wave 3, toward the end of the edition to now: Tigurius, ragnar, assault intercessors, eradicators, blade veterans, blade veteran ancient, primario kart, primaris bikers, primaris techmarine, primaris turret with the dude on it, primaris drop pod turret. 11 kits that we know of so far.
so that's....forty-three, I think?
compare to the sisters "entire army relaunch" they did: Rhino, Immolator, Exorcist, Sisters squad, repentia, seraphim, arco-flags, retributors, hospitallier, dialogus, canoness, pen engine, triumph, lady in a big pulpit thingy, banner lady. 15 kits.
If you remember "big releases for eldar and dark eldar" which were both count 'em one kit and one character, and you don't remember that we had three waves of primaris stuff the size of the sisters' entire model relaunch, I really gotta question your awareness.
People get so triggered about this.
Like I said, 8th wasn’t any more Marine focused than previous editions. You said yourself 7th was mostly Marine releases. We’ve had way more releases for other factions over the period of 8th edition. It’s obvious that GW are trying to replace finecast kits, but they aren’t going to stop releasing the stuff that makes them the most money.
Marines will always have their main attention, it’s never been any different, people need to get over this already.
Lol. I didn't "say myself" that 7th was mostly marine focused. In both 7th and 6th marines got about the same fraction of releases as other factions, and a lot of the marine releases were just for the little marine sub-factions like deathwatch and space wolves.
In 8th, there were a massive amount of marine releases that they then had to put in more releases to make sure they proliferated out to every little special snowflake sub-faction codex of marines. They got 2 codexes, a codex for every sub-faction, and a supplement book for every founding chapter.
In terms of both rules and models there were far, far FAR more marines in 8th as a fraction of the total releases in that edition than any other edition I have played in or heard of. They absolutely did ramp up production of new models in general, but just like was the norm in previous editions, plenty of factions saw absolutely diddly squat all edition long, or got like a single character clampack.
Kirasu wrote: I think it's important to discount redundant models for marines as well. 13 primaris lieutenants is really just 1 new kit (IE a primaris lieutenant).
that's an interesting way to look at things.
Can I have 11 different kits for ork warbosses with different wargear? That'd be sick.
Kirasu wrote: I think it's important to discount redundant models for marines as well. 13 primaris lieutenants is really just 1 new kit (IE a primaris lieutenant).
that's an interesting way to look at things.
Can I have 11 different kits for ork warbosses with different wargear? That'd be sick.
If at least the Lieteneauts primaris had different wargear... the sad thing is that barring 2-3 the other 10 have the same wargear.
I think some of us can dial it down a notch please, Ta.
The focus on the primaris stuff might well be somewhat vexing but as it is the replacement of the biggest selling line it is gonna take a while.
One of the surprises for me of this edition is that we didn't get "endless physic affects" /similar.
Given we've just had an entire series of books released about the increase in psykers and s forth I would've thought a 40k equivalent of the spell models would've been a shoo-in --- but I guess we'll have to wait longer for a giant glowing green foot of Mork -- or maybe even Gork -- to stomp around the table.
reds8n wrote: Given we've just had an entire series of books released about the increase in psykers and s forth I would've thought a 40k equivalent of the spell models would've been a shoo-in --- but I guess we'll have to wait longer for a giant glowing green foot of Mork -- or maybe even Gork -- to stomp around the table.
I did find it amusing that the entire effect of the great "psychic awakening" for the largest human faction was "well, you get 1 stratagem for a unit no one takes!".
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Overall 8th already felt like it was very focused on Marine releases, even more than before. If they started with faction specific Primaris units now I think they'll really stretch the patience of their customers. I'm pretty sure it's coming at some point, but after the debacle of the Marine Codex and its supplements last year where they lost a lot of good will from the other 20 factions in the game I think releasing even more Marines could generate the next shitstorm for GW. And after the ridiculous App, strange points and Indomitus I don't think that's what they want to have right now.
Was 8th Marine focused? Any more than previous editions. Off the top of my head, I can remember big releases for the following; Genestealer Cults, Eldar, Dark Eldar, tonnes of Chaos stuff finally updated, and new stuff, Slaaneshi Daemons, a bunch of Ork buggies etc, Admech, and plastic sisters.
Any more than previous editions? You kidding my dude?
in 7th, if I'm remembering correctly, we got the following for loyalist space marines:
-Deathwatch (which was 4 kits, veterans watch master artemis and flyer)
-A new flyer kit
-The new assault marine and devastator kits
-Guilliman and Gk grandmaster guy
-Space wolf wulfen, flyer, santa sleigh
Unless i'm forgetting something, that was all of 7th edition. Which I'd remind you was longer than 8th. I count 12 marine kits across all the marine sub-factions, counting the two loyalists in their triumvirate box as two kits.
Now let's look at 8th edition:
primaris wave 1, at the launch of the edition: Librarian, Apothecary, 2 captains, 4 lieutenants, Intercessors, Reivers, Repulsor, Hellblasters, Aggressors, Redemptor, Inceptors. So, 15.
Primaris wave 2, mid-edition: Another captain, another librarian, another lieutenant, calgar and his 2 buds, Khan, blood angel guy, dark angel guy, space wolf guy, shrike, iron father brokenos, imp fist fatso, salamander guy, eliminators, suppressors, invictus warsuit, inceptors/infiltrators, primaris rhino thingy. 17 kits. not counting the upgrade kits for every chapter.
Primaris wave 3, toward the end of the edition to now: Tigurius, ragnar, assault intercessors, eradicators, blade veterans, blade veteran ancient, primario kart, primaris bikers, primaris techmarine, primaris turret with the dude on it, primaris drop pod turret. 11 kits that we know of so far.
so that's....forty-three, I think?
compare to the sisters "entire army relaunch" they did: Rhino, Immolator, Exorcist, Sisters squad, repentia, seraphim, arco-flags, retributors, hospitallier, dialogus, canoness, pen engine, triumph, lady in a big pulpit thingy, banner lady. 15 kits.
If you remember "big releases for eldar and dark eldar" which were both count 'em one kit and one character, and you don't remember that we had three waves of primaris stuff the size of the sisters' entire model relaunch, I really gotta question your awareness.
People get so triggered about this.
Like I said, 8th wasn’t any more Marine focused than previous editions. You said yourself 7th was mostly Marine releases. We’ve had way more releases for other factions over the period of 8th edition. It’s obvious that GW are trying to replace finecast kits, but they aren’t going to stop releasing the stuff that makes them the most money.
Marines will always have their main attention, it’s never been any different, people need to get over this already.
Lol. I didn't "say myself" that 7th was mostly marine focused. In both 7th and 6th marines got about the same fraction of releases as other factions, and a lot of the marine releases were just for the little marine sub-factions like deathwatch and space wolves.
In 8th, there were a massive amount of marine releases that they then had to put in more releases to make sure they proliferated out to every little special snowflake sub-faction codex of marines. They got 2 codexes, a codex for every sub-faction, and a supplement book for every founding chapter.
In terms of both rules and models there were far, far FAR more marines in 8th as a fraction of the total releases in that edition than any other edition I have played in or heard of. They absolutely did ramp up production of new models in general, but just like was the norm in previous editions, plenty of factions saw absolutely diddly squat all edition long, or got like a single character clampack.
Yeah sorry, I misinterpreted what you said, you only listed the marine kits for 7th so I thought that’s what you were getting at.
You’re right about them ramping up production and releases, we’ve seen far more releases in general over the last 3 years or so, including lots of stuff for the non Marine factions. I don’t think there’s any point people getting their knickers in a twist about the amount of Marine releases there are though, that’s just the way it is, they are the poster boys, and that just isn’t going to change, no matter how many people stamp their feet about the amount of finecast still in the Eldar product line.
Kirasu wrote: I think it's important to discount redundant models for marines as well. 13 primaris lieutenants is really just 1 new kit (IE a primaris lieutenant).
I don't. That's a huge part of the problem!
If the 20-odd primaris kits were actually a dozen or so primaris kits, they'd be far less of a problem. Instead they've constantly been an opportunity cost in terms of releases.
A primaris LT with a half a dozen weapon options would never have been the derisive joke it became.
We're already seeing the same with primaris chaplains. We're getting our second foot chaplain, and soon a chaplain on bike. Which itself is a missed opportunity, because it begs the existence of a captain on bike, LT on bike, librarian on bike, phobos LT on bike, etc.
Add a few bits in the kit so you could do all of those from the same box and it wouldn't feel nearly so bad.
They really needed to do a lot more of the primaris line like they did incursors/Infilitrators. Starting with the intercessors/hellblasters and going all the way to the repulsor/executioner (which might help with the ridiculous price tags on those)
No, they have absolutely no idea what their clients want and how to run their business.
But I would love to see the numbers showing their different LTs were loss leaders. I am sure they saw themselves losing money on the 5th LT and said “keep spinnng them up for 10 more”
Also what is with treating all marines as exactly the same, seems like a bad faith presentation of data, statistical manipulation. If 1 kit can be used by 5-10 different books than it will naturally sell more than a model only used by 1 book. Meanwhile certain kits will only realistically be used by other subsections of those 5-10 books.
You would have thought that a multipose, multioption kit would be a much better investment than so many different models. With the setup costs for plastic moulding being what they are, they must be selling so many of these LTs to make a profit.
I would think a multi pose modular kit would be much harder to design and fit on a sprue than a single posse that can practically be cut almost anywhere to get them to fit together.
Especially since most of the LTs were limited from my understanding/special events ones so not worried about long term stocking amongst other logistical issues. Mail out once and done.
I don’t like all the LTs, I think they are all stupid. Doesn’t mean I know enough to claim it is bad business.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Overall 8th already felt like it was very focused on Marine releases, even more than before. If they started with faction specific Primaris units now I think they'll really stretch the patience of their customers. I'm pretty sure it's coming at some point, but after the debacle of the Marine Codex and its supplements last year where they lost a lot of good will from the other 20 factions in the game I think releasing even more Marines could generate the next shitstorm for GW. And after the ridiculous App, strange points and Indomitus I don't think that's what they want to have right now.
Was 8th Marine focused? Any more than previous editions. Off the top of my head, I can remember big releases for the following; Genestealer Cults, Eldar, Dark Eldar, tonnes of Chaos stuff finally updated, and new stuff, Slaaneshi Daemons, a bunch of Ork buggies etc, Admech, and plastic sisters.
Any more than previous editions? You kidding my dude?
in 7th, if I'm remembering correctly, we got the following for loyalist space marines:
-Deathwatch (which was 4 kits, veterans watch master artemis and flyer)
-A new flyer kit
-The new assault marine and devastator kits
-Guilliman and Gk grandmaster guy
-Space wolf wulfen, flyer, santa sleigh
Unless i'm forgetting something, that was all of 7th edition. Which I'd remind you was longer than 8th. I count 12 marine kits across all the marine sub-factions, counting the two loyalists in their triumvirate box as two kits.
Now let's look at 8th edition:
primaris wave 1, at the launch of the edition: Librarian, Apothecary, 2 captains, 4 lieutenants, Intercessors, Reivers, Repulsor, Hellblasters, Aggressors, Redemptor, Inceptors. So, 15.
Primaris wave 2, mid-edition: Another captain, another librarian, another lieutenant, calgar and his 2 buds, Khan, blood angel guy, dark angel guy, space wolf guy, shrike, iron father brokenos, imp fist fatso, salamander guy, eliminators, suppressors, invictus warsuit, inceptors/infiltrators, primaris rhino thingy. 17 kits. not counting the upgrade kits for every chapter.
Primaris wave 3, toward the end of the edition to now: Tigurius, ragnar, assault intercessors, eradicators, blade veterans, blade veteran ancient, primario kart, primaris bikers, primaris techmarine, primaris turret with the dude on it, primaris drop pod turret. 11 kits that we know of so far.
so that's....forty-three, I think?
compare to the sisters "entire army relaunch" they did: Rhino, Immolator, Exorcist, Sisters squad, repentia, seraphim, arco-flags, retributors, hospitallier, dialogus, canoness, pen engine, triumph, lady in a big pulpit thingy, banner lady. 15 kits.
If you remember "big releases for eldar and dark eldar" which were both count 'em one kit and one character, and you don't remember that we had three waves of primaris stuff the size of the sisters' entire model relaunch, I really gotta question your awareness.
People get so triggered about this.
Like I said, 8th wasn’t any more Marine focused than previous editions. You said yourself 7th was mostly Marine releases. We’ve had way more releases for other factions over the period of 8th edition. It’s obvious that GW are trying to replace finecast kits, but they aren’t going to stop releasing the stuff that makes them the most money.
Marines will always have their main attention, it’s never been any different, people need to get over this already.
Lol. I didn't "say myself" that 7th was mostly marine focused. In both 7th and 6th marines got about the same fraction of releases as other factions, and a lot of the marine releases were just for the little marine sub-factions like deathwatch and space wolves.
In 8th, there were a massive amount of marine releases that they then had to put in more releases to make sure they proliferated out to every little special snowflake sub-faction codex of marines. They got 2 codexes, a codex for every sub-faction, and a supplement book for every founding chapter.
In terms of both rules and models there were far, far FAR more marines in 8th as a fraction of the total releases in that edition than any other edition I have played in or heard of. They absolutely did ramp up production of new models in general, but just like was the norm in previous editions, plenty of factions saw absolutely diddly squat all edition long, or got like a single character clampack.
Yeah sorry, I misinterpreted what you said, you only listed the marine kits for 7th so I thought that’s what you were getting at.
You’re right about them ramping up production and releases, we’ve seen far more releases in general over the last 3 years or so, including lots of stuff for the non Marine factions. I don’t think there’s any point people getting their knickers in a twist about the amount of Marine releases there are though, that’s just the way it is, they are the poster boys, and that just isn’t going to change, no matter how many people stamp their feet about the amount of finecast still in the Eldar product line.
Random factoid, here's a chunk of the releases for 7th (missing a year as warseer packed in before 8th came out)
Spoiler:
July 2016: Stormcloud Attack: Faith & Heresy/The Eldritch & the Beast/The Ancient & the Greater Good
Space Marines - Mark IV Tactical Marines
Space Marines - Cataphractii Terminators
Space Marines - Contemptor Dreadnought
Space Marines - Terminator Captain
Space Marines - Chaplain
June 2016: Lost Patrol
Tyranids - Broodlord
Imperial Guard - Techpriest Enginseer
April 2016: Angels of Death (6th/7th edition)
Space Marines - Imperial Space Marine
Space Marines - Captain
February 2016: War Zone Fenris: Curse of the Wulfen + Deathwatch: Overkill
Space Wolves - Ulrik the Slayer
Space Wolves - Iron Priest
Space Wolves - Wulfen
Tyranids - Genestealer Patriarch
Tyranids - Genestealer Primus
Tyranids - Genestealer Magus
Tyranids - Genestealer Familiars
Tyranids - Purestrain Genestealers
Tyranids - Genestealer Hybrids
Tyranids - Genestealer Aberrants
Space Marines - Deathwatch
November 2015: Tau Empire (6th/7th edition) + War Zone Damocles: Kauyon + Horus Heresy: Betrayal at Calth
Tau - Drones
Tau - Commander
Tau - XV8 Crisis Battlesuits
Space Marines/Chaos - Terminator Captain
Space Marines/Chaos - Cataphractii Terminators
Space Marines/Chaos - Contemptor Dreadnought
Space Marines/Chaos - MKIV Space Marines
Chaos - Dark Apostle
Blood Angels - Jump Pack Chaplain
Imperial Guard - Techpriest Enginseer
October 2015
Chaos - Skarbrand
Tau - KV128 Stormsurge
Tau - XV95 Ghostkeel
Tau - Ethereal
Tau - Fire Warriors
June 2015: Adeptus Mechanicus Cult Mechanicus (6th/7th edition) + Space Marines (6th/7th edition)
Adeptus Mechanicus - Tech-Priest Dominus
Adeptus Mechanicus - Corpuscarii Electro-Priests
Adeptus Mechanicus - Fulgurite Electro-Priests
Space Marines - Assault Marines
Space Marines - Devastators
Space Marines - Terminator Librarian
April 2015: Adeptus Mechanicus Skitarii (6th/7th edition) + Eldar Craftworlds (6th/7th edition)
Adeptus Mechanicus - Skitarii Vanguard/Rangers
Adeptus Mechanicus - Ironstrider Ballistarius/Sydonian Dragoon
Adeptus Mechanicus - Sicarian Ruststalkers/Sicarian Infiltrators
Adeptus Mechanicus - Onager Dunecrawler
Eldar - Autarch
Eldar - Windriders
Eldar - Farseer/Warlock Skyrunner
March 2015: Khorne Daemonkin (6th/7th edition)
Chaos - Bloodthirster
February 2015: Harlequins (6th/7th edition)
Eldar - Harlequins
Eldar - Solitaire
Eldar - Skyweavers
Eldar - Starweaver/Voidweaver
Eldar - Shadowseer
Eldar - Death Jester
January 2015: Necrons (6th/7th edition)
Necrons - Overlord
October 2014: Dark Eldar (6th/7th edition) + Haemonculus Covens (6th/7th edition)
Dark Eldar - Voidraven Bomber
Dark Eldar - Archon
Dark Eldar - Succubus
September 2014
Dark Eldar - Haemonculus
Dark Eldar - Wracks
August 2014: Space Wolves (6th/7th edition) + Champions of Fenris (6th/7th edition) + Grey Knights (6th/7th edition)
Space Wolves - Stormfang/Stormwolf
Space Wolves - Venerable Dreadnought/Bjorn the Fell-Handed/Murderfang
Space Wolves - Logan Grimnar on Stormrider
July 2014: WAAAGH! Ghazghkull (6th/7th edition) + Sanctus Reach: Stormclaw
Orks - Mega-Armoured Nobz + Mega-Armoured Mek
Orks - Warboss
Space Wolves - Wolf Lord Krom
June 2014: Orks (6th/7th edition)
*Orks - Gorkanaut/Morkanaut
*Orks - Flash Gitz
Orks - Mek Gunz
Orks - Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun
Orks - Mek
Orks - Painboy
May 2014: Warhammer 40,000 (6.5/7th edition)
Space Marines - Terminator Captain
In short: mostly marines still (29 between the subfactions where as the next biggest winner was nids at 12) between start of 7th and July 2016.
reds8n wrote: The focus on the primaris stuff might well be somewhat vexing but as it is the replacement of the biggest selling line it is gonna take a while.
Take a while for what? To completely replace the line? And then what? You really think the flood of primaris models is going to stop? Maybe, when they decide to replace them with ULTRAMARIS MARINES and start the whole process over, but not before. I heard people saying a similar thing when they were updating the entire mini-marine line to plastic. Just wait, once they finish getting the whole space marine line into plastic then they can move on to plastic aspect warriors! Well, they finished. And look what happened.
Kirasu wrote: I think it's important to discount redundant models for marines as well. 13 primaris lieutenants is really just 1 new kit (IE a primaris lieutenant).
Trickstick wrote: You would have thought that a multipose, multioption kit would be a much better investment than so many different models. With the setup costs for plastic moulding being what they are, they must be selling so many of these LTs to make a profit.
Since GW produces everything in house and also uses the possibility of cheaper aluminium molds the design is the expensive part
hence why we see copy&paste poses a lot, as they re-use basic designs, re-scale it if necessary and add specific elements on top of it
they don't need to sell a lot of the LT's to make it the cheaper option it is more like the other way around, if they sell too much it gets more expensive
reds8n wrote: The focus on the primaris stuff might well be somewhat vexing but as it is the replacement of the biggest selling line it is gonna take a while.
Take a while for what? To completely replace the line? And then what? You really think the flood of primaris models is going to stop? Maybe, when they decide to replace them with ULTRAMARIS MARINES and start the whole process over, but not before. I heard people saying a similar thing when they were updating the entire mini-marine line to plastic. Just wait, once they finish getting the whole space marine line into plastic then they can move on to plastic aspect warriors! Well, they finished. And look what happened.
It'll slow down a little and become a stream rather than a flood with some luck, but it's normal, people seem to play up to it far worse than they ever used to previously.
Didn’t they release some plastic aspect warriors? Or were you expecting them to do it all at once?
Aspect warriors are a costly unit to upgrade(side note:I am 100% surprised they didn’t make the biker kit a hybrid shining spears set) since each plastic kit requires completely seperate sprues(no multi kit capability) to do them justice for a unit that might only get bought 1-2 per eldar player(if that).
Now compare that to the multi-kit for a marine army. Codex marines, dark angels, blood angels, space wolves etc players will buy 1. In addition they might buy multiple because they have different flavors of marines. Now you are looking at 2-4 per marine player(possibly). Just from a business decision it makes a lot more sense to release 1 marine kit than 5 aspects. My dad plays almost every variety of marines and while he doesn’t buy it for all of them, I know for his 30k armies he has 20-30 rhinos as an example.
just from an ease of design, your designers can probably design a marine in their sleep at this point. Heck they probably have a primaris marine template they can just make modifications too. Eldar aspects? Each one probably has to be freshly deigned from the ground up.
We also have to accept that competitive players, while they are the most vocal, they do not represent the entirety of GW player base nor necessarily the majority of the player base. Collectors, painters, etc garage hammer are also huge parts of the hobby and I can’t say for sure but I feel like their priorities are different.
Contrary to what everyone says warhammer as a middle class hobby is not very expensive. You might think it is expensive for what you get(it is) but after a certain point you focus on per hour over anything else. Per hour it is probably one of the cheaper hobbies in the middle class range you can get into(IMO).
5 beers at a bar can easily be $50 with tips for one person. That’s not even considering cocktails, 3 of those with tips is easy $50. For that same price I can get a 5 man kit that will easily take 3-5 hours just to build and paint. That’s before including playing time and other aspects of the hobby that just playing the hobby enable(such as conversing on the forums, list building and strategy sessions, going to national events, etc.)
I wish they were less blatant about the phasing out of old marines, but at the end of the day it is what it is. I hope they fix the firstborn prices very soon but I am not gonna hold my breath.
If that was the case you wouldn't be posting big blocks of Math Hammer to "prove" your various points.
We can analyse units/weapons and so on by reading the rules for them because we have had the experience of playing games and because sometimes comparisons are bleedingly obvious.
Daedalus81 wrote: BRB guys. Gonna go buy stock in straw and poles. The market is booming!
You really don't get Doobie's post. That's fine. Most of the newer folk don't.
I consistently maintain that math hammer is a tool and not a be all end all to how to approach the game, but I wouldn't expect people who make straw men all day long to actually try to understand someone else's position.
Kirasu wrote: I think it's important to discount redundant models for marines as well. 13 primaris lieutenants is really just 1 new kit (IE a primaris lieutenant).
Why? No it's 13 new kits.
Is it though?
Out of the "ridiculous number" of Lieutenant models, there's really just two available for purchase:
The Reiver and the one from Wake the Dead(who arguably is more Ultramarines than anybody else).
There's three that came out with respective codices(DA got one, BA got one, and SW got one)...but those books also didn't see anything else outside of splash release bundles of the Primaris Intercessor/Aggressor kits and upgrade frames.
Then there are three Lieutenants that are sprue-locked(Two in Dark Imperium, one with Bolt Rifle and one with BP+Power Sword. One in the Vanguard Start Collecting that comes with the weird mix of Oculus Bolt Carbine and Grav-Chute), and two of those are unavailable now.
And then there are three that I know of that were event/regional exclusives(500th store model with the Stalker Bolt Rifle, the one from Conquest, and the Made to Order one), meaning they're gone and dusted now.
Top 20 Lieutenants actually kinda hammers home that even though people love to snark about it, there's less available than people like to pretend.
So out of the 11 that actually existed, 5 are unavailable right now for purchase(with 2 potentially coming back in a Start Collecting set) and 3(potentially 4) are subfaction specific, and 3 available for purchase at the moment(one of which is locked in a Start Collecting set).
There is a 12th Lieutenant model coming with Indomitus, which is an entirely new loadout that can't be easily kitbashed from currently available parts...which seems to be the caveat for how these things are happening.
Ghaz wrote: In case it hasn't been mentioned, it looks like we now have 9th edition FAQs for the Imperial Armour Indexes.
But weren't there supposed to be new books?
There should be a new Codex Necrons not too far in the future, but it still received a FAQ.
Yeah, Codex: Necrons should be first or second out the gate this edition, probably first to assuage a little more of the furore over Codex: More Codexes being replaced inside a year, and it got FAQ’d, as did the other prime(aris) candidate.
I expect the remaining Psychic Awakening books will also receive errata at least fairly soon.
Kirasu wrote: I think it's important to discount redundant models for marines as well. 13 primaris lieutenants is really just 1 new kit (IE a primaris lieutenant).
Why? No it's 13 new kits.
Is it though?
Out of the "ridiculous number" of Lieutenant models, there's really just two available for purchase:
The Reiver and the one from Wake the Dead(who arguably is more Ultramarines than anybody else).
There's three that came out with respective codices(DA got one, BA got one, and SW got one)...but those books also didn't see anything else outside of splash release bundles of the Primaris Intercessor/Aggressor kits and upgrade frames.
Then there are three Lieutenants that are sprue-locked(Two in Dark Imperium, one with Bolt Rifle and one with BP+Power Sword. One in the Vanguard Start Collecting that comes with the weird mix of Oculus Bolt Carbine and Grav-Chute), and two of those are unavailable now.
And then there are three that I know of that were event/regional exclusives(500th store model with the Stalker Bolt Rifle, the one from Conquest, and the Made to Order one), meaning they're gone and dusted now.
Top 20 Lieutenants actually kinda hammers home that even though people love to snark about it, there's less available than people like to pretend.
So out of the 11 that actually existed, 5 are unavailable right now for purchase(with 2 potentially coming back in a Start Collecting set) and 3(potentially 4) are subfaction specific, and 3 available for purchase at the moment(one of which is locked in a Start Collecting set).
There is a 12th Lieutenant model coming with Indomitus, which is an entirely new loadout that can't be easily kitbashed from currently available parts...which seems to be the caveat for how these things are happening.
Whilst I understand your point, how many warbosses are currently available? 1 ancient metal one and one locked in a nob box... Or Archons? 1? The main 'leader' characters from those factions. The point is there are more lieutenants than some factions entire roster of characters. I think that is what rubs most people up the wrong way about lieutenants.
Kirasu wrote: I think it's important to discount redundant models for marines as well. 13 primaris lieutenants is really just 1 new kit (IE a primaris lieutenant).
Why? No it's 13 new kits.
Is it though?
Yes. The short version of your message is "It's actually just 12 kits, 5 of which are not available for purchase anymore".
And, yeah ok. There is two Canoness kits, one of which are not available for purchase anymore. That's 2 kits. That's less than 12 kits. That's more than 1 kit. Each of those kits required to be designed, and then made, and then were sold. Each time someone was designing one of those kits, they were not designing something else. Each time a machine was making one of those kits, they were not making something else. I don't know what to add, because I don't understand your argument if I'm being honest.
12 is less than 13, I agree with you on that, but I don't think it is the crux of your argument somehow. I mean, I just don't see how being sprue-locked, or subfaction-locked, make some model not being a different kit?
Kirasu wrote: I think it's important to discount redundant models for marines as well. 13 primaris lieutenants is really just 1 new kit (IE a primaris lieutenant).
Why? No it's 13 new kits.
Is it though?
Out of the "ridiculous number" of Lieutenant models, there's really just two available for purchase:
The Reiver and the one from Wake the Dead(who arguably is more Ultramarines than anybody else).
There's three that came out with respective codices(DA got one, BA got one, and SW got one)...but those books also didn't see anything else outside of splash release bundles of the Primaris Intercessor/Aggressor kits and upgrade frames.
Then there are three Lieutenants that are sprue-locked(Two in Dark Imperium, one with Bolt Rifle and one with BP+Power Sword. One in the Vanguard Start Collecting that comes with the weird mix of Oculus Bolt Carbine and Grav-Chute), and two of those are unavailable now.
And then there are three that I know of that were event/regional exclusives(500th store model with the Stalker Bolt Rifle, the one from Conquest, and the Made to Order one), meaning they're gone and dusted now.
Top 20 Lieutenants actually kinda hammers home that even though people love to snark about it, there's less available than people like to pretend.
So out of the 11 that actually existed, 5 are unavailable right now for purchase(with 2 potentially coming back in a Start Collecting set) and 3(potentially 4) are subfaction specific, and 3 available for purchase at the moment(one of which is locked in a Start Collecting set).
There is a 12th Lieutenant model coming with Indomitus, which is an entirely new loadout that can't be easily kitbashed from currently available parts...which seems to be the caveat for how these things are happening.
It's a release, it takes resources from a finite pool. That means it is effectively eating up a production slot that could be used for xenos. That even most Marine players see it as a wasted production slot is doubly tragic.
Kirasu wrote: I think it's important to discount redundant models for marines as well. 13 primaris lieutenants is really just 1 new kit (IE a primaris lieutenant).
Why? No it's 13 new kits.
Is it though?
Out of the "ridiculous number" of Lieutenant models, there's really just two available for purchase:
The Reiver and the one from Wake the Dead(who arguably is more Ultramarines than anybody else).
There's three that came out with respective codices(DA got one, BA got one, and SW got one)...but those books also didn't see anything else outside of splash release bundles of the Primaris Intercessor/Aggressor kits and upgrade frames.
Then there are three Lieutenants that are sprue-locked(Two in Dark Imperium, one with Bolt Rifle and one with BP+Power Sword. One in the Vanguard Start Collecting that comes with the weird mix of Oculus Bolt Carbine and Grav-Chute), and two of those are unavailable now.
And then there are three that I know of that were event/regional exclusives(500th store model with the Stalker Bolt Rifle, the one from Conquest, and the Made to Order one), meaning they're gone and dusted now.
Top 20 Lieutenants actually kinda hammers home that even though people love to snark about it, there's less available than people like to pretend.
So out of the 11 that actually existed, 5 are unavailable right now for purchase(with 2 potentially coming back in a Start Collecting set) and 3(potentially 4) are subfaction specific, and 3 available for purchase at the moment(one of which is locked in a Start Collecting set).
There is a 12th Lieutenant model coming with Indomitus, which is an entirely new loadout that can't be easily kitbashed from currently available parts...which seems to be the caveat for how these things are happening.
It's a release, it takes resources from a finite pool. That means it is effectively eating up a production slot that could be used for xenos. That even most Marine players see it as a wasted production slot is doubly tragic.
Aren't Primaris Lientenauts the new "new-sculptor" test of Games Workshop? Thats why theres so many of them.
Kirasu wrote: I think it's important to discount redundant models for marines as well. 13 primaris lieutenants is really just 1 new kit (IE a primaris lieutenant).
Why? No it's 13 new kits.
Is it though?
Out of the "ridiculous number" of Lieutenant models, there's really just two available for purchase:
The Reiver and the one from Wake the Dead(who arguably is more Ultramarines than anybody else).
There's three that came out with respective codices(DA got one, BA got one, and SW got one)...but those books also didn't see anything else outside of splash release bundles of the Primaris Intercessor/Aggressor kits and upgrade frames.
Then there are three Lieutenants that are sprue-locked(Two in Dark Imperium, one with Bolt Rifle and one with BP+Power Sword. One in the Vanguard Start Collecting that comes with the weird mix of Oculus Bolt Carbine and Grav-Chute), and two of those are unavailable now.
And then there are three that I know of that were event/regional exclusives(500th store model with the Stalker Bolt Rifle, the one from Conquest, and the Made to Order one), meaning they're gone and dusted now.
Top 20 Lieutenants actually kinda hammers home that even though people love to snark about it, there's less available than people like to pretend.
So out of the 11 that actually existed, 5 are unavailable right now for purchase(with 2 potentially coming back in a Start Collecting set) and 3(potentially 4) are subfaction specific, and 3 available for purchase at the moment(one of which is locked in a Start Collecting set).
There is a 12th Lieutenant model coming with Indomitus, which is an entirely new loadout that can't be easily kitbashed from currently available parts...which seems to be the caveat for how these things are happening.
This doesn't make it any better. In fact a lot of them being unavailable makes it worse. They do not benefit even the people who like Primaris Lieutenants! Also many of them having duplicate loadouts is just utter waste. Lack of options is the biggest flaw of the Primaris, so if GW is gonna waste production capacity to make twelve different Primaris Liutenants then at least use that to give us twelve different loadouts!
Yeah, I'm not sure how GW not even bothering to sell the fething things that they cadded up and made molds for makes it not a thing they did.
Let's see, 9 kits they could have made instead of 9 limited-release lieutenants...
-plastic warboss
-skitarii commander
-autarch on foot
-archon modeled for reaver bike
-Succubus modeled for reaver bike
-New Chaos Lord
-New DG Chaos Lord
-Tau Breacher HQ -Tyranid Warrior Prime
Show of hands, which would be better additions to improve the health of the game Warhammer 40,000, those models or 9 limited edition primaris lieutenants that aren't currently sold?
Space Marines have strangled the game so thoroughly that people forget that they've done gak like released so many primaris marines they haven't even bothered putting them out in kits (suppressors) or they've already fething obsoleted both loadouts of one of the original units (reivers). Or they don't remember that time that they put out an entire second mass battle wargame just for marines vs marines matchups, then squatted that one edition later.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, I'm not sure how GW not even bothering to sell the fething things that they cadded up and made molds for makes it not a thing they did.
Let's see, 9 kits they could have made instead of 9 limited-release lieutenants...
-plastic warboss
-skitarii commander
-autarch on foot
-archon modeled for reaver bike
-Succubus modeled for reaver bike
-New Chaos Lord
-New DG Chaos Lord
-Tau Breacher HQ -Tyranid Warrior Prime
Show of hands, which would be better additions to improve the health of the game Warhammer 40,000, those models or 9 limited edition primaris lieutenants that aren't currently sold?
Space Marines have strangled the game so thoroughly that people forget that they've done gak like released so many primaris marines they haven't even bothered putting them out in kits (suppressors) or they've already fething obsoleted both loadouts of one of the original units (reivers). Or they don't remember that time that they put out an entire second mass battle wargame just for marines vs marines matchups, then squatted that one edition later.
Right, and even if you made all of those units monopose/monorule above, *it would still be very valuable for the various armies*. GW could put the bare minimum into a release like that... and it would still be appreciated. That's how ridiculous the disparity is.
It's a release, it takes resources from a finite pool. That means it is effectively eating up a production slot that could be used for xenos. That even most Marine players see it as a wasted production slot is doubly tragic.
Sure it's a release, but it's also a very unfair comparison to argue that marines are getting 30+ releases when nearly half of them require basically the lowest possible level of resources on GW's behalf. I wouldn't be surprised if GW could put out ten Lientenauts for the same level of design & production man-hours as one Silent King or Triumph of Saint Katherine kit.
It's a release, it takes resources from a finite pool. That means it is effectively eating up a production slot that could be used for xenos. That even most Marine players see it as a wasted production slot is doubly tragic.
Sure it's a release, but it's also a very unfair comparison to argue that marines are getting 30+ releases when nearly half of them require basically the lowest possible level of resources on GW's behalf. I wouldn't be surprised if GW could put out ten Lientenauts for the same level of design & production man-hours as one Silent King or Triumph of Saint Katherine kit.
But 10 man-sized Xenos/Chaos champions would still be more useful than 10 Lieutenants.
Aren't Primaris Lientenauts the new "new-sculptor" test of Games Workshop? Thats why theres so many of them.
Test sculpts generally don't make it into production. You see glimpses of them inside GWHQ, but they generally aren't production pieces- they effectively consume no manufacturing resources or time.
There may well be exceptions, but not generally.
It's a release, it takes resources from a finite pool. That means it is effectively eating up a production slot that could be used for xenos. That even most Marine players see it as a wasted production slot is doubly tragic.
Sure it's a release, but it's also a very unfair comparison to argue that marines are getting 30+ releases when nearly half of them require basically the lowest possible level of resources on GW's behalf. I wouldn't be surprised if GW could put out ten Lientenauts for the same level of design & production man-hours as one Silent King or Triumph of Saint Katherine kit.
That argument is a weird one. They could just as easily be Dracons, Tyranid Primes, Sisters Prelates (or whatever the title is), Autarchs (there are a couple options that went missing) or whatever.
Pretty much every faction has 'lieutenant' equivalents that are just gone or are unsupported. If its so trivial to do marine ones, there isn't any excuse for that.
Its the same problem with yet another marine wave.
No one is terribly surprised they're in the launch box. But that there's yet another wave queued up already past that? Crazy infuriating for people who just went 2 or even 3 editions without a significant update.
While some people would surely rather the Necron update was a different army, the number of complaints about a necron update is very small, because its been 5 years (and will almost certainly be at least another 5 before it happens again) and frankly it gives other people hope that more xenos updates may happen. But following up with yet more marines and likely Deathwatch? That's just kind of asinine.
If the likely post launch releases were necrons, craftworlds, tyranids, dark eldar, you'd have people absolutely cheering. Instead they're grumbling. Again. Because it really has gotten to the point that Marines have individual FOC slots that have gotten bigger than entire armies. And they're queuing up more, and setting precedents for even yet more. (XX on bike, XY with whatever armor, etc). There are now as many primaris chaplains as there are generic Dark Eldar HQs.
Unfortunately, the disproportionate attention lavished on marines becomes a snowballing, self-fulfilling prophecy as more people start playing them which means they make up an even larger percentage of the game which means GW's shareholder orientation means they get even more releases, and the cycle repeats.
It's even worse right now because they made them hugely overpowered, which only pushes the exodus further, and in turn creates even more incentive to make more marine kits since they sell like hotcakes.
40k has always been a game of marines + friends, but it's never been worse than now because at least in the past marines weren't usually so overpowered compared to the friends.
yukishiro1 wrote: Unfortunately, the disproportionate attention lavished on marines becomes a snowballing, self-fulfilling prophecy as more people start playing them which means they make up an even larger percentage of the game which means GW's shareholder orientation means they get even more releases, and the cycle repeats.
It's even worse right now because they made them hugely overpowered, which only pushes the exodus further, and in turn creates even more incentive to make more marine kits since they sell like hotcakes.
40k has always been a game of marines + friends, but it's never been worse than now because at least in the past marines weren't usually so overpowered compared to the friends.
Depends.
I mean eldar are the front runner for "Most years spent OP", but marines have had their moments to shine through and trash everyone else before. We're not even a year into "Marines fething everywhere ruining everyone else" yet remember. The newold... oldnew? Marine codex and its sups are less than a year old. Can't forget it. It just feels like 2020 has lasted for a decade.
yukishiro1 wrote: Unfortunately, the disproportionate attention lavished on marines becomes a snowballing, self-fulfilling prophecy as more people start playing them which means they make up an even larger percentage of the game which means GW's shareholder orientation means they get even more releases, and the cycle repeats.
It's even worse right now because they made them hugely overpowered, which only pushes the exodus further, and in turn creates even more incentive to make more marine kits since they sell like hotcakes.
40k has always been a game of marines + friends, but it's never been worse than now because at least in the past marines weren't usually so overpowered compared to the friends.
Over clocking primaris really hurt 8th edition. The most numerous army should be more carefully balanced as nobody can escape playing against them. Even a for fun primaris army is a drag to play against. And you can't play for fun against them.
But I also think at this point it would be hard to fix primaris now that there are more primaris units filling in the holes of the army. They don't feel compatible with the game style that is 40k.
I mean eldar are the front runner for "Most years spent OP",
A time of legends, barely recalled and often misremembered by players these days.
Also not particularly relevant to just releasing models to keep the lines up to date and fundamentally viable. Or even just something new to paint.
Eldar: the eternal refutation to the "Games Workshop Makes OP Rules To Push New Models" theory.
Feels like barring the WK/Windrider debacle, every OP unit they've had for the last three editions has been either 3E ancient plastic or fossilized shaving cream.
I mean eldar are the front runner for "Most years spent OP",
A time of legends, barely recalled and often misremembered by players these days.
Also not particularly relevant to just releasing models to keep the lines up to date and fundamentally viable. Or even just something new to paint.
Eldar: the eternal refutation to the "Games Workshop Makes OP Rules To Push New Models" theory.
Feels like barring the WK/Windrider debacle, every OP unit they've had for the last three editions has been either 3E ancient plastic or fossilized shaving cream.
Sometimes I feel like all eldar problems stem from the fact that it was theoretically possible for a single RT-era shuriken catapult to wipe out multiple marine squads through Following Fire (not even vaguely probable, but possible] Someone thinks they saw it happen once, and every eldar faction has been punished for it ever since.
(yes, yes, and starcannon spam, but those got gakked on long ago as well)
I mean eldar are the front runner for "Most years spent OP",
Not even close. Over the last decade, it's Chaos far and away without anyone coming remotely close.
7th Ed. Screamer Star reigning supreme (including basically all top spots at the Adepticon before 8th, including one of the first big, more public Nick Brown wins.
8th rolls around, Maelific Lords, Brimstone spam and Big Bird.
Those get nerfed, alpha legion cultist rush.
Those get nerfed, endless Poxwalkers (again nearly winning Adepticon 2018 save for Hive Tyrant spam)
Those get nerfed, Bash Brothers.
Those get nerfed, Plaguebearers & TS (winning Adepticon 2019)
Short Marine interlude, once those get nerfed, Chaos take all the top spots at basically all tournaments pre-corona like Battlefield Birmingham, etc..
There are brief excitements over Castellan and Broviathan and sum such, but throughout 7th and 8th, Chaos has been far and away the most broken and OP faction. Hell, Ahriman was famously the only model EVERY SINGLE team brought to the last ETC. It's the one model so broken that over 40 countries were in agreement on that they couldn't leave without it, even if they went without Ynnari or Riptides or Castellans or whatever else was in vogue last summer or the summer before that.
I mean eldar are the front runner for "Most years spent OP",
Not even close. Over the last decade, it's Chaos far and away without anyone coming remotely close.
7th Ed. Screamer Star reigning supreme (including basically all top spots at the Adepticon before 8th, including one of the first big, more public Nick Brown wins.
8th rolls around, Maelific Lords, Brimstone spam and Big Bird.
Those get nerfed, alpha legion cultist rush.
Those get nerfed, endless Poxwalkers (again nearly winning Adepticon 2018 save for Hive Tyrant spam)
Those get nerfed, Bash Brothers.
Those get nerfed, Plaguebearers & TS (winning Adepticon 2019)
Short Marine interlude, once those get nerfed, Chaos take all the top spots at basically all tournaments pre-corona like Battlefield Birmingham, etc..
There are brief excitements over Castellan and Broviathan and sum such, but throughout 7th and 8th, Chaos has been far and away the most broken and OP faction. Hell, Ahriman was famously the only model EVERY SINGLE team brought to the last ETC. It's the one model so broken that over 40 countries were in agreement on that they couldn't leave without it, even if they went without Ynnari or Riptides or Castellans or whatever else was in vogue last summer or the summer before that.
Think you missed the last decade as fairly sure it wasn't 7th edition, i think it was 5th edition 10 years ago
I mean eldar are the front runner for "Most years spent OP",
Not even close. Over the last decade, it's Chaos far and away without anyone coming remotely close.
7th Ed. Screamer Star reigning supreme (including basically all top spots at the Adepticon before 8th, including one of the first big, more public Nick Brown wins.
8th rolls around, Maelific Lords, Brimstone spam and Big Bird.
Those get nerfed, alpha legion cultist rush.
Those get nerfed, endless Poxwalkers (again nearly winning Adepticon 2018 save for Hive Tyrant spam)
Those get nerfed, Bash Brothers.
Those get nerfed, Plaguebearers & TS (winning Adepticon 2019)
Short Marine interlude, once those get nerfed, Chaos take all the top spots at basically all tournaments pre-corona like Battlefield Birmingham, etc..
There are brief excitements over Castellan and Broviathan and sum such, but throughout 7th and 8th, Chaos has been far and away the most broken and OP faction. Hell, Ahriman was famously the only model EVERY SINGLE team brought to the last ETC. It's the one model so broken that over 40 countries were in agreement on that they couldn't leave without it, even if they went without Ynnari or Riptides or Castellans or whatever else was in vogue last summer or the summer before that.
Think you missed the last decade as fairly sure it wasn't 7th edition, i think it was 5th edition 10 years ago
Was gonna say thats about 3 years worth and covers 4 books/codex/armies.
10 years ago playkng chaos marines you'd be rocking a space marine list with less special rules and paying more for having spikes... oh wait some things haven't changed.
I still think that Lash of Submission is the absolute worst rule that GW has ever written. No other rule directs your opponent to touch your models. It just seems like something that shouldn't be done. We just got by it by giving directions, as they were mostly "cluster those Guardsmen up please" but it really was a terrible rule. Like, I don't mind my opponent touching my models if I know them, but for pick up games I have no idea who the person is, or their hand hygiene.
Lash of submission then smash them with a defiler, good times.
a local tournament organisator by that time had the opinion that 40k is a perfect game and his events don't need restrictions or house rules
resulting in 2 of my friends team up for 2 player team event with CSM and SW trying to convince him that Lash and Jaws is such a terrible OP combination that he should not allow such things in future
I mean eldar are the front runner for "Most years spent OP",
Not even close. Over the last decade, it's Chaos far and away without anyone coming remotely close.
7th Ed. Screamer Star reigning supreme (including basically all top spots at the Adepticon before 8th, including one of the first big, more public Nick Brown wins.
8th rolls around, Maelific Lords, Brimstone spam and Big Bird.
Those get nerfed, alpha legion cultist rush.
Those get nerfed, endless Poxwalkers (again nearly winning Adepticon 2018 save for Hive Tyrant spam)
Those get nerfed, Bash Brothers.
Those get nerfed, Plaguebearers & TS (winning Adepticon 2019)
Short Marine interlude, once those get nerfed, Chaos take all the top spots at basically all tournaments pre-corona like Battlefield Birmingham, etc..
There are brief excitements over Castellan and Broviathan and sum such, but throughout 7th and 8th, Chaos has been far and away the most broken and OP faction. Hell, Ahriman was famously the only model EVERY SINGLE team brought to the last ETC. It's the one model so broken that over 40 countries were in agreement on that they couldn't leave without it, even if they went without Ynnari or Riptides or Castellans or whatever else was in vogue last summer or the summer before that.
for most of 8th, eldar were rocking consistent 60 plus win percentages.
Sure, there were a few times some other army had better winrates, link the guard castellan lists, but eldar remained consistently strong, mostly on the backs of flyers, up until it wasn't any longer. But that feels like a ca2020 development.
Eldar have been one of the consistently strongest factions in the history of the game. Simple as.
Chaos honestly only spiked on a few occasions. I'd warrant marines outrank them in historic power levels, though some of the spikes were very high, yes.
Chaos in 8th has never challenged eldar's spot in winrates though, except maybe with malefic lords, which were nerfed promptly.
what do you mean malefic lords got nerfed, they got obliterated and copied over in more reliable and equipped form to the IoM inform of the IG psyker...
I mean eldar are the front runner for "Most years spent OP",
Not even close. Over the last decade, it's Chaos far and away without anyone coming remotely close.
7th Ed. Screamer Star reigning supreme (including basically all top spots at the Adepticon before 8th, including one of the first big, more public Nick Brown wins.
8th rolls around, Maelific Lords, Brimstone spam and Big Bird.
Those get nerfed, alpha legion cultist rush.
Those get nerfed, endless Poxwalkers (again nearly winning Adepticon 2018 save for Hive Tyrant spam)
Those get nerfed, Bash Brothers.
Those get nerfed, Plaguebearers & TS (winning Adepticon 2019)
Short Marine interlude, once those get nerfed, Chaos take all the top spots at basically all tournaments pre-corona like Battlefield Birmingham, etc..
There are brief excitements over Castellan and Broviathan and sum such, but throughout 7th and 8th, Chaos has been far and away the most broken and OP faction. Hell, Ahriman was famously the only model EVERY SINGLE team brought to the last ETC. It's the one model so broken that over 40 countries were in agreement on that they couldn't leave without it, even if they went without Ynnari or Riptides or Castellans or whatever else was in vogue last summer or the summer before that.
for most of 8th, eldar were rocking consistent 60 plus win percentages.
Sure, there were a few times some other army had better winrates, link the guard castellan lists, but eldar remained consistently strong, mostly on the backs of flyers, up until it wasn't any longer. But that feels like a ca2020 development.
Eldar have been one of the consistently strongest factions in the history of the game. Simple as.
Chaos honestly only spiked on a few occasions. I'd warrant marines outrank them in historic power levels, though some of the spikes were very high, yes.
Chaos in 8th has never challenged eldar's spot in winrates though, except maybe with malefic lords, which were nerfed promptly.
It's also worth noting chaos have needed multiple factions and cross play with some FW units here and there. Eldar can do well with single faction no FW pure codex shenanigans.
Not Online!!! wrote: what do you mean malefic lords got nerfed, they got obliterated and copied over in more reliable and equipped form to the IoM inform of the IG psyker...
And yet I have been never heard of Primaris Psycher spam...
Not Online!!! wrote: what do you mean malefic lords got nerfed, they got obliterated and copied over in more reliable and equipped form to the IoM inform of the IG psyker...
And yet I have been never heard of Primaris Psycher spam...
Because oh wonder the Model itself wasn't the issue but rather the lack of ro3 and no drawback soup aswell as brimstones?
Gw overreacted curbed the Model into unplayable copied it over for the IG dex where it was no issue at all because the other changes had happened.
Now gw could've lowered the pts of the malefic down again over the course of 8th but even that they didn't do, because reasons.
Heck they couldn't even Make the command vox work through all Of 8th aswell.
It's also worth noting chaos have needed multiple factions and cross play with some FW units here and there. Eldar can do well with single faction no FW pure codex shenanigans.
Which just shows that GW continues to treat Eldar as an NPC faction, don't make any worthwhile FW stuff for them and stick them with nerfs like not being able to use psychic powers like Doom or Jinx across factions, while all the win-on-easy-mode Chaos cheese can buy themselves easy wins with resin and get to Warptime around their Deathguard with Thousand Sons psykers and other OP cheats like that which no other army in the game has access to.
Not Online!!! wrote: what do you mean malefic lords got nerfed, they got obliterated and copied over in more reliable and equipped form to the IoM inform of the IG psyker...
And yet I have been never heard of Primaris Psycher spam...
Because oh wonder the Model itself wasn't the issue but rather the lack of ro3 and no drawback soup aswell as brimstones?
Gw overreacted curbed the Model into unplayable copied it over for the IG dex where it was no issue at all because the other changes had happened.
Now gw could've lowered the pts of the malefic down again over the course of 8th but even that they didn't do, because reasons.
Heck they couldn't even Make the command vox work through all Of 8th aswell.
Well if they had fixed all that and people had gone out and bought stuff to field it, then they'd be even more upset when they got squatted. See? They did you a favor.
It's also worth noting chaos have needed multiple factions and cross play with some FW units here and there. Eldar can do well with single faction no FW pure codex shenanigans.
Which just shows that GW continues to treat Eldar as an NPC faction, don't make any worthwhile FW stuff for them and stick them with nerfs like not being able to use psychic powers like Doom or Jinx across factions, while all the win-on-easy-mode Chaos cheese can buy themselves easy wins with resin and get to Warptime around their Deathguard with Thousand Sons psykers and other OP cheats like that which no other army in the game has access to.
Wait, wait.
Depending on which thread I view, either Chaos is trash and the worst of the worst, or Primaris are the most OP things to ever have existed and must be nerfed. Eldar are either good, or bad, even though we know they had a 60% win rate in the event scene last edition, and I can remember more than a few times getting smashed by Grey Knights, GSC and even Khorne Zerker Spam. Thousand Sons OP? I've not seen anyone play them in my vacuum.
So which is it? You guys always love to argue over this stuff, but then your evidence for it always comes from a sectioned off vacuum.
Maybe we all just see small snap shots of the bigger picture here and things aren't really as bad as we make them out to be?
To sum up, Theory hammer is fine I guess. But it means nothing.
As it happens, we already have a mini for that. Worse, GW releasing a clampack or mini-box for a Tyranid Prime would probably result in it losing options, as they wouldn't be able to fit all the possible weapons it can currently get on the sprue. Better to leave it as part of the Warriors kit like it is now.
It's also worth noting chaos have needed multiple factions and cross play with some FW units here and there. Eldar can do well with single faction no FW pure codex shenanigans.
Which just shows that GW continues to treat Eldar as an NPC faction, don't make any worthwhile FW stuff for them and stick them with nerfs like not being able to use psychic powers like Doom or Jinx across factions, while all the win-on-easy-mode Chaos cheese can buy themselves easy wins with resin and get to Warptime around their Deathguard with Thousand Sons psykers and other OP cheats like that which no other army in the game has access to.
That's literally the exact opposite of what was being said. Eldar have a consistently higher win rate and need fewer props. A faction that needs 5 books and expensive resin toys only to become bridesmaid and not the bride at events shows they have issues.
Eldar don't need fw goodies, or supporting books, because they're individually better.
Tyran wrote: Yeah the Tyranid HQs are actually great in terms of models. Tyranids are more in need of a Pyrovore/Biovore or Lictor/Deathleaper
I thought everyone that used Biovores just used the Pyrovore model?
They’re all currently resin and therefore in need of an update more than, say, the Tyrant is. Though I wouldn’t say no to new ‘Gaunts either, or a refreshed genestealer sprue to bring them in line with the genecult ones design-wise.
That's literally the exact opposite of what was being said. Eldar have a consistently higher win rate and need fewer props. A faction that needs 5 books and expensive resin toys only to become bridesmaid and not the bride at events shows they have issues.
Eldar don't need fw goodies, or supporting books, because they're individually better.
Except Chaos is the bride, Eldar rarely even close to the bridesmade. They only time Chaos hasn't won Adepticon in the last 5 years, they placed second to Nids. Most post-Marine-doctrine-Nerf tournaments like Battlefield Birmingham, Chaos placed 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and more, something unheard of in 8th and 7th outside maybe that one Iron-Hands-release-weekend. To 3 out of three the year before at the Gentleman's GT: Chaos. Top 3 out of 3. Etc.., Etc.
A short spike for Nids, the Castellan and Marines aside, Chaos has been the Bride, the first, second and third bridesmade for all of 8th and all of late-7th Edition.
Again, Eldar and other factions would need some more Chaos-style love, whether its useful FW stuff or just cross-allies freedom to even have a shot at being the bridesmade under Chaos, let alone competing with Chaos for top spots.
It's also worth noting chaos have needed multiple factions and cross play with some FW units here and there. Eldar can do well with single faction no FW pure codex shenanigans.
Which just shows that GW continues to treat Eldar as an NPC faction, don't make any worthwhile FW stuff for them and stick them with nerfs like not being able to use psychic powers like Doom or Jinx across factions, while all the win-on-easy-mode Chaos cheese can buy themselves easy wins with resin and get to Warptime around their Deathguard with Thousand Sons psykers and other OP cheats like that which no other army in the game has access to.
That's literally the exact opposite of what was being said. Eldar have a consistently higher win rate and need fewer props. A faction that needs 5 books and expensive resin toys only to become bridesmaid and not the bride at events shows they have issues.
Eldar don't need fw goodies, or supporting books, because they're individually better.
It's different issues, only slightly related.
It's completely understandable to be an eldar player and feel like that GW cares less about you because you're sitting on awful resin models for much of your range, despite some builds of your army being consistently strong
I'm out, I'll take my khorne bezerker sculpts older than some of the eldar finecast and go revel in all the mono faction chaos space marines tournaments that have been won.
Dudeface wrote: I'm out, I'll take my khorne bezerker sculpts older than some of the eldar finecast and go revel in all the mono faction chaos space marines tournaments that have been won.
Same for my mono-Harlequins.
Either way, that was not the original statement.
The longest consistently OP faction with the far and away most (bigger) tournament wins in 7th and 8th is Chaos, not (even remotely) Eldar (mono-books and certain builds under these umbrellas being weak notwithstanding).
But sure, if you take a fluffy World Eaters list and run up against a no-gak-given-about-fluff-competitive-tournament-Eldar-soup, you'll probably get blown off the table. Inversely, if I take my fluffy Iyanden Wraithknight/Wraithguard list with their trusty Spiritseers and get paired against the latest Jim Vesal or TJ Lanigan special, I am not gonna see any daylight. That's why you should compare like with like.
Check the 2019 results - Asuryani have the highest win rate in faction and mono faction. Renegade knights are the first chaos entry at 4th. in the top 15 by faction win rate, there are all 4 eldar factions, there are 2 chaos out of 5 in the same bracket.
I'll admit I CBA to work out how to get the pivot table to match for 2020 but harelquins have a higher win rate than any chaos faction, but the rest of them are literally side by side.
Stop driving an incorrect narrative that chaos crap on eldar. A decade ago playing chaos was essentially a joke, they've become viable as a soup faction needing 4-5 books in the last 3 years.
Kirasu wrote: I think it's important to discount redundant models for marines as well. 13 primaris lieutenants is really just 1 new kit (IE a primaris lieutenant).
Uh no. It\s still multiple releases and helps with attack of the clone syndrome with same model used multiple times. Have fun with ork painboys all looking identical.
Check the 2019 results - Asuryani have the highest win rate in faction and mono faction. Renegade knights are the first chaos entry at 4th. in the top 15 by faction win rate, there are all 4 eldar factions, there are 2 chaos out of 5 in the same bracket.
I'll admit I CBA to work out how to get the pivot table to match for 2020 but harelquins have a higher win rate than any chaos faction, but the rest of them are literally side by side.
Stop driving an incorrect narrative that chaos crap on eldar. A decade ago playing chaos was essentially a joke, they've become viable as a soup faction needing 4-5 books in the last 3 years.
What incorrect narrative? Did Chaos not smash Adepticon, Gentleman's GT and many others in 2019. What did Eldar win? A few RTTs ? Great! Was the Jim Vesal-mania just my imagination?
And again, it's not accounting 2018 with Bash Brothers and Poxwalker spam winning major tournaments (admittedly Nids taking the top crown that year), and Maelific Lords cleaning house in late 2017, after Screamerstars won Adepticon and all other big tournaments just prior to the release of 8th. And before that Bel'akor. And before that Lash of Submission. And, and, and.
Sure, spikes in win rates (as shown on 40Kstats) happen. Space Marines are currently very good (and were even better in the last quarter of 2019). But seen consistently over 10-ish years, Space Marines have rarely been top dog, and certainly not consistently. Neither have Eldar, or Knights or Custodes or 5th Ed. Grey Knights some of those flash-in-a-pan armies that win a lot of tournaments for a month or so due to an oversight. Consistently over a long period (at the very least 6th to 8th), no army comes even remotely close to Chaos.
Check the 2019 results - Asuryani have the highest win rate in faction and mono faction. Renegade knights are the first chaos entry at 4th. in the top 15 by faction win rate, there are all 4 eldar factions, there are 2 chaos out of 5 in the same bracket.
I'll admit I CBA to work out how to get the pivot table to match for 2020 but harelquins have a higher win rate than any chaos faction, but the rest of them are literally side by side.
Stop driving an incorrect narrative that chaos crap on eldar. A decade ago playing chaos was essentially a joke, they've become viable as a soup faction needing 4-5 books in the last 3 years.
What incorrect narrative? Did Chaos not smash Adepticon, Gentleman's GT and many others in 2019. What did Eldar win? A few RTTs ? Great! Was the Jim Vesal-mania just my imagination?
And again, it's not accounting 2018 with Bash Brothers and Poxwalker spam winning major tournaments (admittedly Nids taking the top crown that year), and Maelific Lords cleaning house in late 2017, after Screamerstars won Adepticon and all other big tournaments just prior to the release of 8th. And before that Bel'akor. And before that Lash of Submission. And, and, and.
And were ynnari not the boogeymen for the bulk of 8th, aren't shining spears and dark reapers the units that everything gets measured by? (Honourable mention to intercessors and guardsmen as also being yard sticks)
Please find me 4th, 5th and 6th edition tournaments where chaos won them, or even came top 3. In 7th the only thing you can mention is screamer star. You're short on ammunition.
And were ynnari not the boogeymen for the bulk of 8th, aren't shining spears and dark reapers the units that everything gets measured by? (Honourable mention to intercessors and guardsmen as also being yard sticks)
Please find me 4th, 5th and 6th edition tournaments where chaos won them, or even came top 3. In 7th the only thing you can mention is screamer star. You're short on ammunition.
Ynnari were pretty good for a while, sure.
So what did they win? One super-major with the 2018 LVO (with Chaos overtaking them right away two months later at the 2018 Adepticon), whereas Chaos won dozens of GTs, Majors and Supermajors.
Again, Ynnari were good and a decent "bridesmaid" army for a while. But never even at their worst where they close to Chaos.
And were ynnari not the boogeymen for the bulk of 8th, aren't shining spears and dark reapers the units that everything gets measured by? (Honourable mention to intercessors and guardsmen as also being yard sticks)
Please find me 4th, 5th and 6th edition tournaments where chaos won them, or even came top 3. In 7th the only thing you can mention is screamer star. You're short on ammunition.
Ynnari were pretty good for a while, sure.
So what did they win? One super-major with the 2018 LVO (with Chaos overtaking them right away two months later at the 2018 Adepticon), whereas Chaos won dozens of GTs, Majors and Supermajors.
Again, Ynnari were good and a decent "bridesmaid" army for a while. But never even at their worst where they close to Chaos.
Hold up here's 2017's pre 8th results:
The list combines all the top events for the 2017 ITC season, taking only the top three winners from Major or GT events.
7 Eldar
5 Daemon
3 Space Marines
3 Dark Angels
1 Renegades
1 Tau Empire
1 Imperial Knights
Oh look pure craftworlds had more top 3 than any chaos lists.
But Screamstars always took home the money on all the big stuff. Eldar (Ynnari at their 7th Edition worst with unlimited soul burst per phase, even in the opponents turn, etc.., which was admittedly whack) = Bridesmaid, Chaos = Bride.
Kirasu wrote: I think it's important to discount redundant models for marines as well. 13 primaris lieutenants is really just 1 new kit (IE a primaris lieutenant).
They are 1 unit, but definitely 13 kits - in the sense that making the additional 12 still requires time for GW to develop and produce.
If we assume three unique poses for a typical box set that's four box sets of new models (i.e. updated aspect warriors) worth of time. It adds up.
Sunny Side Up wrote: Again, not nearly as many powerful codices, builds and gross tournament performances as Chaos over the very same decade.
Skipping 2nd ed at nothing was balanced, 3e had the eldar and chaos fighting for top cheese with starcannon spam and CSM 3.5, 4e has to ultimately go to eldar for unkillable skimmer spam, 5e missed both factions, 6e goes to the taudar despite some early helldrake action as does 7th despite screamerstar, renegades and heretics (LVO 2017) - eldar had multiple years where they'd occupy half or more of the top 10 positions at big tournaments.
8e they've both had their moments. How 9th treats them is yet to be seen.
Kirasu wrote: I think it's important to discount redundant models for marines as well. 13 primaris lieutenants is really just 1 new kit (IE a primaris lieutenant).
They are 1 unit, but definitely 13 kits - in the sense that making the additional 12 still requires time for GW to develop and produce.
If we assume three unique poses for a typical box set that's four box sets of new models (i.e. updated aspect warriors) worth of time. It adds up.
Sunny Side Up wrote: Again, not nearly as many powerful codices, builds and gross tournament performances as Chaos over the very same decade.
Skipping 2nd ed at nothing was balanced, 3e had the eldar and chaos fighting for top cheese with starcannon spam and CSM 3.5, 4e has to ultimately go to eldar for unkillable skimmer spam, 5e missed both factions, 6e goes to the taudar despite some early helldrake action as does 7th despite screamerstar, renegades and heretics (LVO 2017) - eldar had multiple years where they'd occupy half or more of the top 10 positions at big tournaments.
8e they've both had their moments. How 9th treats them is yet to be seen.
My thanks to you and your memory, I didn't play 2nd and my experience of 3rd didn't involve eldar but that does line up with my experiences as well.
In short I think going into 9th it'll be much the same, the craftworld eldar codex is looking better than any individual chaos codex, although DG and TS have done well out of it.
Kirasu wrote: I think it's important to discount redundant models for marines as well. 13 primaris lieutenants is really just 1 new kit (IE a primaris lieutenant).
They are 1 unit, but definitely 13 kits - in the sense that making the additional 12 still requires time for GW to develop and produce.
If we assume three unique poses for a typical box set that's four box sets of new models (i.e. updated aspect warriors) worth of time. It adds up.
Prior to Indomitus(which brings the Lieutenant with Storm Shield+Volkite Pistol into play and he is on his own sprue), there had only been 11 sculpts for "Lieutenant" tagged models. Out of those 11, three are subfaction specific(Wolf Guard Battle Leader, Dark Angels Lieutenant, Blood Angels Lieutenant) with a fourth one arguably intended to be subfaction specific(the Lieutenant that got introduced in Wake the Dead has more iconography that twigs with the Ultramarines than the other generic Lieutenants). Out of those 11, three were exclusives(1 event exclusive[the 500th store model], 1 was a Made to Order model, and the last one was region locked initially but is part of the Conquest subscription service). Out of those 11, three were locked on sprues shared with other models(the Phobos LT with Grav-Chute is on the sprue that got brought with Shadowspear while the Power Sword+Bolt Pistol and the MC Bolt Rifle were in Dark Imperium). There are two generally available(Reiver LT and WTD LT) that are generic.
Said it before, saying it again. The nonsense about there being so many Primaris Lieutenants is just that. People find things to complain about when it comes to Marines.
Kirasu wrote: I think it's important to discount redundant models for marines as well. 13 primaris lieutenants is really just 1 new kit (IE a primaris lieutenant).
They are 1 unit, but definitely 13 kits - in the sense that making the additional 12 still requires time for GW to develop and produce.
If we assume three unique poses for a typical box set that's four box sets of new models (i.e. updated aspect warriors) worth of time. It adds up.
Prior to Indomitus(which brings the Lieutenant with Storm Shield+Volkite Pistol into play and he is on his own sprue), there had only been 11 sculpts for "Lieutenant" tagged models. Out of those 11, three are subfaction specific(Wolf Guard Battle Leader, Dark Angels Lieutenant, Blood Angels Lieutenant) with a fourth one arguably intended to be subfaction specific(the Lieutenant that got introduced in Wake the Dead has more iconography that twigs with the Ultramarines than the other generic Lieutenants). Out of those 11, three were exclusives(1 event exclusive[the 500th store model], 1 was a Made to Order model, and the last one was region locked initially but is part of the Conquest subscription service). Out of those 11, three were locked on sprues shared with other models(the Phobos LT with Grav-Chute is on the sprue that got brought with Shadowspear while the Power Sword+Bolt Pistol and the MC Bolt Rifle were in Dark Imperium). There are two generally available(Reiver LT and WTD LT) that are generic.
Said it before, saying it again. The nonsense about there being so many Primaris Lieutenants is just that. People find things to complain about when it comes to Marines.
Yes, it's a meme, but somebody still had to sculpt all of those, design them, produce them and whilst I agree about the semantics of when a marine release is not a marine release; (see appendix Deathwatch, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels). There have still been 11 of them. I'd rather have seen 6 (2 generic and 1 each for the alt. chapters) and a new box of warp spiders. Or Tankbusta's. Or Grotesques. Or Kroot variants. Or Valhallans. Or Berserkers. Or Cultists. Or Guardians. etc. etc. Maybe I'm just advocating for the multipose options back, so we don't need every variant of Lieutenant sculpted singly, but it does kinda smart, as those lieutenant releases have been alongside a slew of other Primaris releases.
There, I can't believe I've said it. Essentially; I'd be happy with a 6 to 1 Primaris vs Xenos release schedule.
Said it before, saying it again. The nonsense about there being so many Primaris Lieutenants is just that. People find things to complain about when it comes to Marines.
and still required resouces, in design and production, that could be used on other factions instead
just because there are only 2-5 left to buy does not mean that GW did not made them instead of somethinbg else
Kanluwen wrote: Problem is that counting "event only" models as full releases is disingenuous.
It leads to this kind of nonsense where I can claim that Catachans have seen more releases this year than the actual Guard did in the past few years.
I mean, that's not inaccurate, but only because guard have gotten...basically nothing but special release models. IIRC, it was the female commissar, the catachan sarge lady, marbo, and the catachan commander.
A whole bunch of factions got basically nothing in an edition where we had 50+ new marine SKUs. That's the point. You're not refuting it by pointing out how comically few releases another faction got.
Whether GW decides to make a model limited run and sells a bunch using FOMO or whether they add it to their model catalog permanently is irrelevant to the fact that it took the same production/design time and mold investment that another model of the same size could have taken.
Severina Raine, Sly Marbo, Sergeant, and the Colonel(whose availability numbers suggest that he was going to be the store anniversary model for this year rather...but since they can't host those, they shifted it over to independents for auctions or whatever) are the Guard models that have been released most recently. Two are resin, two are plastic. Something that Goodwin/Latham said in regards to the designing the Indomitus Marines made it sound like the event models are generally just extraneous designs that they didn't feel the general release stuff needed or were just "cool" designs leftover.
And I'm not attempting to"refute" anything. I'm saying that it is dumb to complain about how "tHeRe'S sO mAnY LiEuTeNaNts!1!!" all the time. 11(12 when Indomitus releases) models, with 3 faction specifics, 3 box exclusives(4 when Indomitus releases), and 3 event/regional exclusives...leaving two as general releases.
You want a bunch of models locked on sprues with easy build models? Event or regional exclusives? Have frigging at it! I'd rather see general release models for everyone's factions.
Uriels_Flame wrote: With the leaks out now stating if GW doesn’t currently make a model it is moving to legends: how many FW items are being moved into legend status?
Going by the lack of points, at the very least Chaplain Dreads, Renegades & Heretics, and the last remnants of Eldar Corsairs. I wouldn't be surprised if Guard eventually lost Conquerors and Destroyer Tank Hunters, too.
I think the topic and The defensive players arguing how space marines are not special snow flakes has run its course.
It’s been pretty apparent since warhammer was created space marines were always the favorite child... there isn’t any point arguing about it for 5 pages.
Here’s a relevant question... does anyone have the new fw index in hand? Heck does anyone have the actual CA in hand and not just the point spreadsheet?
I suspect a ton of those one offs are Aluminum molds. Which means you get far fewer runs out of them though. Not suited for a general release model. Cheaper and faster to mill, far shorter lifespan. Faster cycle time too. Each run would take less time than making the same model as a general release miniature.
Its entirely possible all those one off characters didn't cost a single general release model. More probably all of them together cost one or two general release models.
Justyn wrote: I suspect a ton of those one offs are Aluminum molds. Which means you get far fewer runs out of them though. Not suited for a general release model. Cheaper and faster to mill, far shorter lifespan. Faster cycle time too. Each run would take less time than making the same model as a general release miniature.
Its entirely possible all those one off characters didn't cost a single general release model. More probably all of them together cost one or two general release models.
But the biggest time investment wouldn't be the milling of the mold but the design of the model which of course would be faster then a other characters as they probably have a master file for Primaris which they just add things too but still not only 1-2 general releases
Kanluwen wrote: Severina Raine, Sly Marbo, Sergeant, and the Colonel(whose availability numbers suggest that he was going to be the store anniversary model for this year rather...but since they can't host those, they shifted it over to independents for auctions or whatever) are the Guard models that have been released most recently. Two are resin, two are plastic.
Something that Goodwin/Latham said in regards to the designing the Indomitus Marines made it sound like the event models are generally just extraneous designs that they didn't feel the general release stuff needed or were just "cool" designs leftover.
And I'm not attempting to"refute" anything. I'm saying that it is dumb to complain about how "tHeRe'S sO mAnY LiEuTeNaNts!1!!" all the time. 11(12 when Indomitus releases) models, with 3 faction specifics, 3 box exclusives(4 when Indomitus releases), and 3 event/regional exclusives...leaving two as general releases.
You want a bunch of models locked on sprues with easy build models? Event or regional exclusives? Have frigging at it!
I'd rather see general release models for everyone's factions.
Lieutenants are nice easy single sprue options for various purposes, but they were so limited on wargear between all the unique sculpts that it was wasted potential. At least every captain model has a unique load out so far.
Once dark imperium goes out fully, it would be nice if GW made a command squad box with a couple lieutenant torsos with like 10 different weapon arms, add an ancient and champion to fill it out.
Once dark imperium goes out fully, it would be nice if GW made a command squad box with a couple lieutenant torsos with like 10 different weapon arms, add an ancient and champion to fill it out.
It makes sense. Probably should have been done first. You might draw some ire for suggesting more Marine models though.
Anybody remember btw what GW released week after 8th ed? Wondering what will be announced for preorders this week. Any chance of first 9th ed codex?
(mainly hoping for 40k initial deluge to calm down enough for elves to get individual releases. The sooner first codex or two are out the sooner elves might appear)
tneva82 wrote: Anybody remember btw what GW released week after 8th ed? Wondering what will be announced for preorders this week. Any chance of first 9th ed codex?
(mainly hoping for 40k initial deluge to calm down enough for elves to get individual releases. The sooner first codex or two are out the sooner elves might appear)
Looking at the June 2017 White Dwarf there was the goblin team for Blood Bowl and the Skirmish rules for Age of Sigmar along with the 40K releases (no exact dates in the magazine that I can see).
We're likely looking at 2nd splash waves for Primaris and Necrons over the next few months, coupled with codexes I'd wager.
Necron likely first. I am looking forward to whatever narrative driven release driver we'll have for 9th. I hope Eldar and Ork play a part being also old one born.
But we also have the stylistic hive tendrils approaching terra on the LE rulebook so who knows...
tneva82 wrote: Anybody remember btw what GW released week after 8th ed? Wondering what will be announced for preorders this week. Any chance of first 9th ed codex?
(mainly hoping for 40k initial deluge to calm down enough for elves to get individual releases. The sooner first codex or two are out the sooner elves might appear)
If I remember correctly, the Space Marine codex came out about a month after 8th edition launched.
tneva82 wrote: Anybody remember btw what GW released week after 8th ed? Wondering what will be announced for preorders this week. Any chance of first 9th ed codex?
(mainly hoping for 40k initial deluge to calm down enough for elves to get individual releases. The sooner first codex or two are out the sooner elves might appear)
I suspect we are going to get some kind of starter set soon. We know there are several easy to built kits that had points listed in CA that are not available yet. I suspect that is coming soon.
I also think the Necron Codex and release will be in August sometime. So much has been revealed now that I can't expect it will be in September. SM will be out in August or September as well.
I think there will be some kind of break, since we are missing the Sons of Behemet and the Warcry Warbands. We may even see some previews for those this Sunday.
Warcry warbands won't be announced this sunday 100% sure. That would put preorder for 25.7 and as warhammer community revealed august is month for new warcry warbands(and for GW it's the preorder date that determines month).
Wish GW did roadmap for all games and not just warcry...
What can they possibly add in a Necron codex to make necron players required to purchase it?
They are getting all the points in both the app and CA, datasheets for the new models in Indomitus
And FAQs for all 8th edition codex to bring them up to 9th rules plus all the 8th books are on the app for free including szera...
They have to add at least some niche 1-2 pages of stuff so people buy the book. New strats, relics, traits, etc or whatever new 9th edition tacked on rules...
It has to be more then just that terrain piece. My guess is there is at least 1 more model not shown.
gungo wrote: What can they possibly add in a Necron codex to make necron players required to purchase it?
The Silent King and that funky terrain come to mind, plus the new C'Tan Shard. And the leaked pics have a bunch of other models that are NOT in Indomitus.
It will have new stratagems, make your own dynasty rules, the new Void Dragon, the Silent King, likely new rules for the new Monolith and it has been hinted that new Reanimation rules.
App you will either need to be subscriber to get army builder or buy codex to get code to unlock codex. And ca points aren"t neccessarily same as codex points.
Plus changes to old datasheets, new and dropped stratagems etc.
as the 8th edition rules are gone from the app as soon as the 9th edition codex hit, tgey just need to add some new special rules to make it necessary for the Necron players
tneva82 wrote: Warcry warbands won't be announced this sunday 100% sure. That would put preorder for 25.7 and as warhammer community revealed august is month for new warcry warbands(and for GW it's the preorder date that determines month).
Wish GW did roadmap for all games and not just warcry...
GW did a roadmap for Warhammer Underworlds, not WarCry.
Additionally, a preorder on the 25th for Underworlds would be a release date of August 1st...which would align with GW's calendar of late.
In any regards, we'll know more of what to expect for 40k on the 25th in all likelihood. That's when the next 40k Preview Show will be.
kodos wrote: as the 8th edition rules are gone from the app as soon as the 9th edition codex hit, tgey just need to add some new special rules to make it necessary for the Necron players
Alongside a dozen or so adjusted or new profiles as well.
tneva82 wrote: Warcry warbands won't be announced this sunday 100% sure. That would put preorder for 25.7 and as warhammer community revealed august is month for new warcry warbands(and for GW it's the preorder date that determines month).
Wish GW did roadmap for all games and not just warcry...
gungo wrote: What can they possibly add in a Necron codex to make necron players required to purchase it?
They are getting all the points in both the app and CA, datasheets for the new models in Indomitus
And FAQs for all 8th edition codex to bring them up to 9th rules plus all the 8th books are on the app for free including szera...
They have to add at least some niche 1-2 pages of stuff so people buy the book. New strats, relics, traits, etc or whatever new 9th edition tacked on rules...
It has to be more then just that terrain piece. My guess is there is at least 1 more model not shown.
How about all the new models that aren’t in Indomitus like:
The Silent King
The Laser Giraffe (The one with the doomsday cannon hat)
The new Monolith (with suitably adjusted profile)
The new hover-destroyers
The Void Dragon
And yeah, the terrain piece.
Plus anything we missed in the spoiled images etc. Like a Triarch Captain or something.
Also, as others said, the 8e book vanishes from the app once the 9e version drops and you only get that in the app once you buy a copy.
Thinking about it... if CA came with the app subscription, it wouldn’t be a bad deal. So would waiving subscription fees for buying models. Or anything really.
So what do we all think the first codexes that are out will be?
Will GW want to release them as quickly as they have done over 8th? Seeing as there was a need to get those done because of the bigger changes in the system.
At the beginning of eighth the codexes seemed to come thick and fast.
Even though Idomitus might be gone (for the moment), there still appears to be a Marine vs. Necron starter (Edge of Silence?), which is gonna be the main product every GW store around the world is gonna launch basically every sales-talk off for almost every new face entering the store.
And the immediate add-on / follow-up sale will be the Necron / Marine Codex (and no, the old Marine Codex that doesn't have the units from the starter won't do).
Just from a retail perspective, they'll do everything possible to get those two books into the stores ASAP.
Yeah, definitely loyalist dogs and Necrons first, but who's next? Grey Knights and csm are currently the oldest (no, csm "2" wasn't a new codex), but a lot of the Rumour Engine pics scream Death Guard and a couple are almost certainly Lilith Hesperax, so maybe Dark Eldar or Death Guard?
Gadzilla666 wrote: Yeah, definitely loyalist dogs and Necrons first, but who's next? Grey Knights and csm are currently the oldest (no, csm "2" wasn't a new codex), but a lot of the Rumour Engine pics scream Death Guard and a couple are almost certainly Lilith Hesperax, so maybe Dark Eldar or Death Guard?
I think that is pretty much all speculation. Rumour-pics can be as much as 2 years out as seen by the Soul Wars rumour pics (though I think GW has tried to shorten it recently).
Throw a dart at your 40K bookshelf, really. There's no telling which Codex might be up sooner or later.
Maybe Daemons and AdMech might make some sense, as they both have tons of units scattered throughout campaign supplements, etc.. but who knows. Inversely, they might be the last to get stuff, if there're not more new models GW can pitch with a new Codex.
They also said that the new fw books would be released shortly after 9th, so do we get those before codexes? I'm tired of waiting. It's been a long time since they were announced at LVO. Time they pulled the trigger.
tneva82 wrote: Otoh that book will mean plenty models going out of play and rest getting nerfbats.
Yes, a lot of OOP stuff will be going to legends, but some of the stuff that won't can't be nerfed much more. How do they nerf things that they've already made so expensive as to be practically unplayable?
tneva82 wrote: Otoh that book will mean plenty models going out of play and rest getting nerfbats.
Yes, a lot of OOP stuff will be going to legends, but some of the stuff that won't can't be nerfed much more. How do they nerf things that they've already made so expensive as to be practically unplayable?
tneva82 wrote: Otoh that book will mean plenty models going out of play and rest getting nerfbats.
Yes, a lot of OOP stuff will be going to legends, but some of the stuff that won't can't be nerfed much more. How do they nerf things that they've already made so expensive as to be practically unplayable?
Is this hypothetical or are you legit asking?
Hypothetical. I know the answer is "Make them even more expensive".
It's also very likely that FW legends will not have any points values attached to them, making it impossible to play them in regular games. The current FW "legends" suffer from the same treatment.
General Kroll wrote: So what do we all think the first codexes that are out will be?
Marines, Necrons, then Guard.
People seem to have missed that Guard were in the big trailer. Not just that, a female Guardsman with slight design differences. I think that I heard them say that everything in the trailer was getting a model release too, and the Cadian kits are rather old by now...
tneva82 wrote: Otoh that book will mean plenty models going out of play and rest getting nerfbats.
Yes, a lot of OOP stuff will be going to legends, but some of the stuff that won't can't be nerfed much more. How do they nerf things that they've already made so expensive as to be practically unplayable?
Plenty of stuff that are playable in points. And if you refer to money ith expensive..that's irrelevant. If something is playable then players will get it one way or another.
GW just doesn't want players to get them as resin has lower profit rate than plastic. If everybody would just spam best stuff and not worry about less good GW would happily drop FW alltogether but as there's people who buy for looks and don't spam best thing forever it's worth enough to sell resin but they don't have to be competive for that crowd to sell enough to be worth it.
I think that at one point FW was a way to prototype models, guaging popularity before releasing plastic versions. Quite a lot of Guard vehicle kits started as FW. Off the top of my head: Valkyrie, Manticore, Hydra, Leman Russ Executioner, Baneblade, Shadowsword, and I think Vanquishers.
Of course this seems to have stopped in recent years, after the massive shift to Heresy, and marines in general, from FW.
AduroT wrote: So what is Legends exactly and how does that stuff matter for tournament legality?
Legends is a reservoir of rules for out of production Games Workshop (thus far not Forge World) miniatures.
Previously, some very old models simply wouldn't get new rules in more recent rulebooks (e.g. the Dark Eldar Vect miniature), thus were "squatted" from the game.
With Legends, GW created a place to have those rules available for old legacy models (unfortunately not Vect, but for example some stuff more recently removed from Codexes, e.g. Eldar Autarch with Warpspider backpack, etc..).
Legends, RAW, has no impact on tournament legality and all rules in Legends are 100% matched-play legal. However, GW wrote in the caveat that legends-rules and point costs will not be changed again down the line to fit future balance-adjustments (such as the current 9th Ed. adjustment, presumably) and "recommends" that larger events not use Legend-models. As with "minimum table size", many well-known, large tournaments such as the FLG-events in the US, have adopted this recommendation as a default for all their events, and presumably many smaller events will copy that.
Whether FW stuff like Chaplain Dreads will get their own "FW Legends" or will be squatted old-school-style is yet unknown.
Necrons will get a new codex, this has essentially been spoiled already.
Space Marines will most likely get a new codex either before or right after Necrons. There are already too many known units in the SM roster that's not in the codex, and there are even more on the way ("Land Speeder", Invader ATV") which will mean a heck of bloat before the edition is even released.
After that? Who can tell.
It could literally be anyone except maybe SoB; according to playtesters they where made with 9th in mind, and some even say that this shows. I'm not a SoB-player nor have I fought them in 9th so I can neither agree nor disagree with this statement
Trickstick wrote: I think that at one point FW was a way to prototype models, guaging popularity before releasing plastic versions. Quite a lot of Guard vehicle kits started as FW. Off the top of my head: Valkyrie, Manticore, Hydra, Leman Russ Executioner, Baneblade, Shadowsword, and I think Vanquishers.
Of course this seems to have stopped in recent years, after the massive shift to Heresy, and marines in general, from FW.
Forgeworld was just taking models that had been designed by the studio, but manufatured in Epic scale and making them in 40k scale.
Their original models have largely not been copied by the studio, with the exception I think of the Tau Piranha. I don't know if the Trygon was based on studio art or not.
I suspect Necrons then SM then probably a month of DW, DA, Furries and Roid Junkies being turned into suppliments as GW has to be sick of the mess of primaris all thes snowflake chapters are making.
That's probably enough to take it out to Christmas if they ever actually release the new FW books to the public.
Next year probably yet more Primaris and hopefully somemore of the Failcast models finally get swapped out for sculpts that can't drink in the entire world.
General Kroll wrote: So what do we all think the first codexes that are out will be?
Marines, Necrons, then Guard.
People seem to have missed that Guard were in the big trailer. Not just that, a female Guardsman with slight design differences. I think that I heard them say that everything in the trailer was getting a model release too, and the Cadian kits are rather old by now...
I wouldn't read that deep into it. Guard were just there to make the Necrons look threatening and show how much more 'badass' the Sisters/Marines are.
Marines -> Necrons -> Deathwatch -> Death Guard -> Talons of the Emperor is my guess.
Death Guard being forth wouldn't be a huge shock since they've the oldest 'dex and the Rumour Engines point to another wave for them, as well as a few of their Dark Imperium models now being OOP. They could receive brand new sculpts or (more likely imo) their half get put into a Start Collecting(!).
Talons of the Emperor I think will land sooner rather than later just to properly bundle Custodes/Sisters together and enough time will have passed for the sales of War of the Spider to have dropped off. Who knows, maybe we'll even see a Sister HQ blister.
Ice_can wrote: I suspect Necrons then SM then probably a month of DW, DA, Furries and Roid Junkies being turned into suppliments as GW has to be sick of the mess of primaris all thes snowflake chapters are making.
That's probably enough to take it out to Christmas if they ever actually release the new FW books to the public.
Next year probably yet more Primaris and hopefully somemore of the Failcast models finally get swapped out for sculpts that can't drink in the entire world.
Sick? They get to release even more primaris. Any excuse to release another marine kit is yey for gw.
Ice_can wrote: I suspect Necrons then SM then probably a month of DW, DA, Furries and Roid Junkies being turned into suppliments as GW has to be sick of the mess of primaris all thes snowflake chapters are making.
That's probably enough to take it out to Christmas if they ever actually release the new FW books to the public.
Next year probably yet more Primaris and hopefully somemore of the Failcast models finally get swapped out for sculpts that can't drink in the entire world.
Sick? They get to release even more primaris. Any excuse to release another marine kit is yey for gw.
Except if they fold them into suppliments it's a simplified case of updating 1 codex instead of the current mess of 6+ FAQ and errata updates.
Then DW players complaining about why they don't get the latest Primaris OP hotness unit.
Necronmaniac05 wrote: I would expect deathwatch fairly early. Pete Foley and Stu alluded to them coming out 'soon after 9th' in one of the twitch streams.
Less "soon after 9th", more "they would be one of the earlier books".
Ice_can wrote: I suspect Necrons then SM then probably a month of DW, DA, Furries and Roid Junkies being turned into suppliments as GW has to be sick of the mess of primaris all thes snowflake chapters are making.
That's probably enough to take it out to Christmas if they ever actually release the new FW books to the public.
Next year probably yet more Primaris and hopefully somemore of the Failcast models finally get swapped out for sculpts that can't drink in the entire world.
Sick? They get to release even more primaris. Any excuse to release another marine kit is yey for gw.
Except if they fold them into suppliments it's a simplified case of updating 1 codex instead of the current mess of 6+ FAQ and errata updates.
Then DW players complaining about why they don't get the latest Primaris OP hotness unit.
Dw gets them if shoulder pads fit and won't if don't.
The Phazer wrote: As a punt, Marines, Necrons, Deathwatch, Death Guard, Dark Eldar, Guard, Ynarri, Chaos.
Ynnari were the only force left out of the 9th ed. Faction Focus series. I think GW would rather people just forgot about them. Replace them with Craftworlds and the list seems plausible.
Except if they fold them into suppliments it's a simplified case of updating 1 codex instead of the current mess of 6+ FAQ and errata updates.
Then DW players complaining about why they don't get the latest Primaris OP hotness unit.
Dw gets them if shoulder pads fit and won't if don't.
which was already covered ny a WC article that DW will get the full Primaris stuff and it was shown that the DW upgrades fit the models
Ice_can wrote: Then DW players complaining about why they don't get the latest Primaris OP hotness unit.
If by 'hotness' you mean 'pretty weak unit, but one actually fitting DW fluff unlike a lot of junk that was crammed in before with little though' then yes, we want """hotness""". Gee, I have no idea why DW players are upset they can't make good looking, fluffy army, when even furries, vampires and pajama boys, three chapters about furthest from using Vanguard on any possible tactic scale have unlimited access
tneva82 wrote: Dw gets them if shoulder pads fit and won't if don't.
This nonsense again?
Vanguard have the same pads as Reivers. Because, you know, they all wear the same armour mark (Phobos). Reivers, in case you missed last 4 years, are unit DW could field since the start of 8th. And even if that was not the case, left pad on Phobos is standard SM one anyway, so that's doubly wrong no matter what angle you look from.
tneva82 wrote: Otoh that book will mean plenty models going out of play and rest getting nerfbats.
Yes, a lot of OOP stuff will be going to legends, but some of the stuff that won't can't be nerfed much more. How do they nerf things that they've already made so expensive as to be practically unplayable?
There are an infinite number of positive integers.
I know we just got an entire new army release but...I still want some more Sisters stuff.
2 reasons beyond "because I play that army"
1. Even with the addition of mortifiers Zephyrim The triumph and the battle sanctum, the army still has a bunch of obvious holes in it. No flyer, no light vehicle, no cavalry equivalent, no heavy infantry, no centerpiece model.
2. The only possible way we'll see a new codex within the next year and a half is if they have a model release for it. I know our codex is both very new and pretty darn good, but goddam if I wouldn't love to not get our codex 4 months before the dnd of the edition for once. And that's literal btw, every edition Sisters of battle have had a codex release it's come out immediately before an edition change.
Ice_can wrote: I suspect Necrons then SM then probably a month of DW, DA, Furries and Roid Junkies being turned into suppliments as GW has to be sick of the mess of primaris all thes snowflake chapters are making.
That's probably enough to take it out to Christmas if they ever actually release the new FW books to the public.
Next year probably yet more Primaris and hopefully somemore of the Failcast models finally get swapped out for sculpts that can't drink in the entire world.
Sick? They get to release even more primaris. Any excuse to release another marine kit is yey for gw.
Except if they fold them into suppliments it's a simplified case of updating 1 codex instead of the current mess of 6+ FAQ and errata updates.
Then DW players complaining about why they don't get the latest Primaris OP hotness unit.
Dw gets them if shoulder pads fit and won't if don't.
They get the contents of the box set which dont have separated pads on...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ERJAK wrote: I know we just got an entire new army release but...I still want some more Sisters stuff.
2 reasons beyond "because I play that army"
1. Even with the addition of mortifiers Zephyrim The triumph and the battle sanctum, the army still has a bunch of obvious holes in it. No flyer, no light vehicle, no cavalry equivalent, no heavy infantry, no centerpiece model.
2. The only possible way we'll see a new codex within the next year and a half is if they have a model release for it. I know our codex is both very new and pretty darn good, but goddam if I wouldn't love to not get our codex 4 months before the dnd of the edition for once. And that's literal btw, every edition Sisters of battle have had a codex release it's come out immediately before an edition change.
Trickstick wrote: The Valkyrie was probably the biggest model that was copied into plastic.
Not the Baneblade/Shadowsword/Stormsword?
I took that to mean directly copied since the plastic Banes and the full resin ones have a lot of design differences.
Yeah the superheavies were significantly changed when translated to plastic, so much so that the originals are actually the superior Mars-pattern in the fluff, with improved armour composition and systems.
Trickstick wrote: The Valkyrie was probably the biggest model that was copied into plastic.
Not the Baneblade/Shadowsword/Stormsword?
I took that to mean directly copied since the plastic Banes and the full resin ones have a lot of design differences.
Very true. When we were starting our IG army, my wife surprised me with a secondhand Shadowsword... and like an idiot it took me ages to figure out why mine was so different to the stock kit. It never even occurred to me that the unit had an older Forgeworld release.
TTT discussion. It looks as though their playtesting is for later codexes and yes, they also seem to think genestealers, Tau, Eldar, Orks, Necrons all got hosed with the initial points.
where they mention they were actually playtesting new codex makes me sure Chaos is in there.
Chef is a massive necrons player too and he was heavily involved so I imagine Necrons are coming too.
Good video that btw. They are very open about how the new points are not good, but they are adamant that future is bright, they just can't tell how long people may have to wait. Very open and honest about what is bad and what is good
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Very true. When we were starting our IG army, my wife surprised me with a secondhand Shadowsword... and like an idiot it took me ages to figure out why mine was so different to the stock kit. It never even occurred to me that the unit had an older Forgeworld release.
You can flex on people that yours is a true STC Mars version. The list of improved systems is rather lengthy.
where they mention they were actually playtesting new codex makes me sure Chaos is in there.
Chef is a massive necrons player too and he was heavily involved so I imagine Necrons are coming too.
Good video that btw. They are very open about how the new points are not good, but they are adamant that future is bright, they just can't tell how long people may have to wait. Very open and honest about what is bad and what is good
edit: ninja'd!! lol
People should really listen to this ^^^^
Also, people need to realise the GW does not think in the same timescale as the playing community, they are a business and cannot swing stuff around quickly, SOON for GW means upto 6-months.
which was already covered ny a WC article that DW will get the full Primaris stuff and it was shown that the DW upgrades fit the models
That's not what they said. The article on WarCom only states that DW will get the Indomitus-Miniatures. Sadly, no words about everything else that is missing in between (like the Vanguards).
On the other hand I am curious about where the upgraded models have been shown? Do you have a link?
I suspect sisters will be a early 9th update as they are pushing them as a 9th front runner on the 40k website, so somthing like necrons > SM> Sisters isnt out of the question
Danit wrote: I suspect sisters will be a early 9th update as they are pushing them as a 9th front runner on the 40k website, so somthing like necrons > SM> Sisters isnt out of the question
Yeah, somehow I doubt even GW is going to ask people to buy re-buy a book they literally bought 8 months ago.
Danit wrote: I suspect sisters will be a early 9th update as they are pushing them as a 9th front runner on the 40k website, so somthing like necrons > SM> Sisters isnt out of the question
Yeah, somehow I doubt even GW is going to ask people to buy re-buy a book they literally bought 8 months ago.
They are going to be doing it with SM, but Sisters are not SM.
Danit wrote: I suspect sisters will be a early 9th update as they are pushing them as a 9th front runner on the 40k website, so somthing like necrons > SM> Sisters isnt out of the question
Yeah, somehow I doubt even GW is going to ask people to buy re-buy a book they literally bought 8 months ago.
They are going to be doing it with SM, but Sisters are not SM.
As you say Sisters are not Marines and the Marine codex will be a year old by then and not released in practically the same calendar year like Sisters would be.
Danit wrote: I suspect sisters will be a early 9th update as they are pushing them as a 9th front runner on the 40k website, so somthing like necrons > SM> Sisters isnt out of the question
Yeah, somehow I doubt even GW is going to ask people to buy re-buy a book they literally bought 8 months ago.
They are going to be doing it with SM, but Sisters are not SM.
As you say Sisters are not Marines and the Marine codex will be a year old by then and not released in practically the same calendar year like Sisters would be.
I am saying Sisters are not Marines, therefore they will not receive the glut of releases like Marines receive.
Ice_can wrote: I appreciate them puuting that out.
Not impressed at idiots sending them emaila about WTF playtesters suck.
But it's a bad sign when your playtesters do a better PR Job of managing the disaster you call a balance update than the company with a PR department.
The company's PR department is using influencers as a tool to manage the PR. People like TT (both of them), and other batrep websites, are part of the system. I guarentee there's a number of people in GW's marketing whose entire focus on managing influencers.
where they mention they were actually playtesting new codex makes me sure Chaos is in there.
Chef is a massive necrons player too and he was heavily involved so I imagine Necrons are coming too.
Good video that btw. They are very open about how the new points are not good, but they are adamant that future is bright, they just can't tell how long people may have to wait. Very open and honest about what is bad and what is good
edit: ninja'd!! lol
If this was like, some free balance patch or somethinh thatd be one thing but gw wants to charge me like 100 bucks for an update that makes the game less balanced and less fun for me...and I should accept that because later on I'll have the "privilege" of buying ANOTHER 40 dollar book that will honest and for realsies fix it this time (not like ladt time when your GSC played in the index for nearly a year and a half and you had to pretend you were cool with people beating you with crazy stratagems and subfaction traits and relics that you literally got nothing to compensate for)
Really? Pay 100$ for the gift of us making your hobby shittier so that tou can pay us 40$ later to fix it?
feth that. It takes more negotiation and discussion of personal limits and preferences to get a mutually enjoyable game of 40k going than it does to arrange activities that involve bodily penetration.
Sisters are not just brand new but they only just got a massive release. Whilst GW is pushing them marketing wise, they don't need to release anything more for htem right now. If anything if they release too much they risk swamping their sisters players.
I can't see them getting another 6 or so kits and a new codex this soon. At best they might get some replacements like the crusaders in new plastic and swapping out more of the remaining finecast/metal; but not a whole new book with brand new kits.
If anything their book is likely built with 9th edition in mind
Ice_can wrote: I suspect Necrons then SM then probably a month of DW, DA, Furries and Roid Junkies being turned into suppliments as GW has to be sick of the mess of primaris all thes snowflake chapters are making.
That's probably enough to take it out to Christmas if they ever actually release the new FW books to the public.
Next year probably yet more Primaris and hopefully somemore of the Failcast models finally get swapped out for sculpts that can't drink in the entire world.
Sick? They get to release even more primaris. Any excuse to release another marine kit is yey for gw.
Except if they fold them into suppliments it's a simplified case of updating 1 codex instead of the current mess of 6+ FAQ and errata updates.
Then DW players complaining about why they don't get the latest Primaris OP hotness unit.
Dw gets them if shoulder pads fit and won't if don't.
They get the contents of the box set which dont have separated pads on...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ERJAK wrote: I know we just got an entire new army release but...I still want some more Sisters stuff.
2 reasons beyond "because I play that army"
1. Even with the addition of mortifiers Zephyrim The triumph and the battle sanctum, the army still has a bunch of obvious holes in it. No flyer, no light vehicle, no cavalry equivalent, no heavy infantry, no centerpiece model.
2. The only possible way we'll see a new codex within the next year and a half is if they have a model release for it. I know our codex is both very new and pretty darn good, but goddam if I wouldn't love to not get our codex 4 months before the dnd of the edition for once. And that's literal btw, every edition Sisters of battle have had a codex release it's come out immediately before an edition change.
I mean... this has been 8 months, but sure.
Really? The army wasn't playable till march, even if you DID have metal models.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Overread wrote: Sisters are not just brand new but they only just got a massive release. Whilst GW is pushing them marketing wise, they don't need to release anything more for htem right now. If anything if they release too much they risk swamping their sisters players.
I can't see them getting another 6 or so kits and a new codex this soon. At best they might get some replacements like the crusaders in new plastic and swapping out more of the remaining finecast/metal; but not a whole new book with brand new kits.
If anything their book is likely built with 9th edition in mind
It's really not. It's a good book, sure, but it's no more 9th ready than any of the other codexes were.
Danit wrote: I suspect sisters will be a early 9th update as they are pushing them as a 9th front runner on the 40k website, so somthing like necrons > SM> Sisters isnt out of the question
Yeah, somehow I doubt even GW is going to ask people to buy re-buy a book they literally bought 8 months ago.
Never doubt GW ability to put out books. GW puts out tons of them more so then anything else they make. It is a big money maker for them. Change a few rules put out a new book or supplement.
If anything their book is likely built with 9th edition in mind
Lol no it wasn't. Too much rules that gets totally neutered or even completely removed for it to be 9th ed compliant. Plus whole sacred rites makes zero sense in edition where core rules encourage mono building. That is mark of 8th ed codex. 9th ed codexes shouldn't have that.
If anything their book is likely built with 9th edition in mind
Lol no it wasn't. Too much rules that gets totally neutered or even completely removed for it to be 9th ed compliant. Plus whole sacred rites makes zero sense in edition where core rules encourage mono building. That is mark of 8th ed codex. 9th ed codexes shouldn't have that.
Examples? And what about sacred rites no longer makes sense?
Nurglitch wrote: Mind you, the books themselves are lovely. Kind of a waste if you're just buying them as gaming manuals, but fantastic if you like perusing them.
Agreed, I still read my various second edition codices now, but that may be more to do with the nostalgia than anything.
It would make the game work better if there was not the weird hull mechanic, it does cause problems. I don't think I would love updating my Armoured Company though...
It's pretty mind-boggling that these points were fixed back in 2019 and haven't been modified at all since based on playtester feedback. I just don't understand how something like that happens. People have been playing with these points for 7 months now at a minimum and every one of them who has spoken up says there are obvious, huge problems with them...and yet GW has not made any changes at all in that time.
It's difficult to square that with TT insisting in the very same breath that "GW really cares about creating a good game, they really do, we're not making it up, they are super open to our feedback." Except when it comes to the points, apparently.
where they mention they were actually playtesting new codex makes me sure Chaos is in there.
Chef is a massive necrons player too and he was heavily involved so I imagine Necrons are coming too.
Good video that btw. They are very open about how the new points are not good, but they are adamant that future is bright, they just can't tell how long people may have to wait. Very open and honest about what is bad and what is good
edit: ninja'd!! lol
If this was like, some free balance patch or somethinh thatd be one thing but gw wants to charge me like 100 bucks for an update that makes the game less balanced and less fun for me...and I should accept that because later on I'll have the "privilege" of buying ANOTHER 40 dollar book that will honest and for realsies fix it this time (not like ladt time when your GSC played in the index for nearly a year and a half and you had to pretend you were cool with people beating you with crazy stratagems and subfaction traits and relics that you literally got nothing to compensate for)
Really? Pay 100$ for the gift of us making your hobby shittier so that tou can pay us 40$ later to fix it?
feth that. It takes more negotiation and discussion of personal limits and preferences to get a mutually enjoyable game of 40k going than it does to arrange activities that involve bodily penetration.
First of all that last statement is going on the wall XD well said. Secondly updates to make chaos more playable could be typical bandaid patches like another campaign supplement...
Ice_can wrote: I appreciate them puuting that out.
Not impressed at idiots sending them emaila about WTF playtesters suck.
But it's a bad sign when your playtesters do a better PR Job of managing the disaster you call a balance update than the company with a PR department.
The company's PR department is using influencers as a tool to manage the PR. People like TT (both of them), and other batrep websites, are part of the system. I guarentee there's a number of people in GW's marketing whose entire focus on managing influencers.
The argument of "yeah everything is horrific now, but it's gonna be good someday(tm)!" is abject lunacy. GW created this problem for themselves by half assing the rollout of 9th (relatively solid cadre of core rules, abject gak on individual unit balance, compounded by completely moronic points changes), and now they're putting out the word to everyone to just hope it gets better in a nebulously indeterminate amount of time?
I’ve seen a few articles on Warcom & in white dwarf showcasing people’s own personal armies, often times they will base their vehicles. I don’t think it’s going to be a rule.
I’ve seen a few articles on Warcom & in white dwarf showcasing people’s own personal armies, often times they will base their vehicles. I don’t think it’s going to be a rule.
there is no rule for bases at all, you are supposed to use the bases that are in the box with the models, but there is no rule that say that you must use bases, just rules how to handle models that have none
GW just needs to at bases to the tank models in the box
GW has been highly inconsistent with vehicle basing and basing in general, especially since 8th edition when special characters got all kinds of base sizes (with different base sizes for the same character even - Lord of Contagion), I doubt they'll do any ruling for bases, they could have put it into 9th Edition rules but didn't. And I hope it stays that way. Even if they changed it I wouldn't care though. All of my pre 8th Edition Plague Marines are still on 25 mm bases, I hate basing and would never rebase anything.
about points values constantly. Most of us just play with our friends, 
That argument is a weird one. They could just as easily be Dracons, Tyranid Primes, Sisters Prelates (or whatever the title is), Autarchs (there are a couple options that went missing) or whatever.
