H.B.M.C. wrote:@ Vaktathi

Then you've lost nothing.

As I said - old Autocannon/Plasma Gun combo cost 25 points. The new one also costs 25 points. You gain 10 just because the squad went down, and you've lost none of your effectivness (you've actually gained some due to orders and base Ld8). So why change now?

Mainly because I'm only halfway through building my platoon based IG army right now and won't have to buy expensive metal PG guys and I can pack in more bodies If going from packing PG's in every infantry and command squad to packing GL's, it shaves 140-210pts from the army depending on how many platoons I take.

I'm also infamous for rolling 1's.

I'm looking at the points costs in this codex sort of in a vacuum, because my army didn't work last edition. Veterans as troops means it probably will work this edition, which is nice! (By "Work" I mean "Able to be fielded without counts as" not "be effective"). I'll start a new guard army eventually (my current one is rather badly painted), although they're on the backburner until after my WotR Elf army (just putting the finishing touches on the last model in my 40k Daemon army, time for a change of pace!). So I'm really looking at how I'll be kitting out this potential future army - existing configs don't matter to me at all.

I am just bummed about no more deep stirking troops. I guess my army will no longer be the Tartarus 151st Airborne!

Oh well, I am happy with the dex as it looks on the whole. I am just exicted to start making some new lists.

H.B.M.C. wrote:It's the Grenade Launcher that's the problem here, not the Plasma Gun. The Plasma Gun is the great gun (worth 12 to 15 points) that can kill you (-2 to -5 point deduction). The Grenade Launcher is the mediocre weapon (5 points) overshadowed by the Plasma Gun (-5). So the Grenade Launcher is worth exactly 0, and it always has been. Really the only way to make it different to the rest - make it stand out - is to give it a 36" range. You do that and instantly there's a choice to be made and it really becomes the Heavy Bolter's best friend.

With a 36" range it'd be overshadowing the Sniper Rifle (which admittedly is a new concern as of this codex).

My fix would have been making the Grenade Launcher AP3 (and reducing the cost as has been done). Really it should be allready given it's 2nd ed stats, the puny AP4 grenade launcher never sat well with me. Sadly it's a little late for wishlisting now though (and AP3 grenade launchers is a minor niggle compared to 16 point Stormtroopers..)

4 Flamers is a good fallback point. They're still suicide due to the fact that if you ever have to use the flamers you are probably dead next turn, but the idea is to never use them. You use them when the enemy gets close - pounce out and torch something. They're a 'suicide if the need arisis' unit, as opposed to the Melta/Plasma unit which has its last rites given before it even hits the field of battle.

I think 4 Flamers (or 3+1 heavy) is how I'd do them in a Chimera bunker. I can't see the squad being left alive to torch anything if on foot, killing 5 guardsmen is too easy. Not that they magically become less killable by taking snipers, but they might inflict some damage before going down.

Neil wrote:With a 36" range it'd be overshadowing the Sniper Rifle (which admittedly is a new concern as of this codex).

I don't see that as too much of a concern as Sniper Rifles shouldn't be in line squads in the first place, and I see the role of the Sniper Rifle being far too narrow on a single basis (ie. when you've got 1 of them, your best and only real target is big tough things like 'Fexes and Wraithlords - matched with an AC or LC) - the Grenade Launcher can actually do different things, which isn't necessary in the Guard by any means (we can afford to specialise and don't need generalist or versitile weapons) but overall its more 'powerful' than the Sniper Rifle. I prefer your idea of the Sniper Command Section idea. It's an odd way of getting an anti-Monstrous Creature unit without signposting them as Target Number 1 by giving them a bunch of Lascannons.

And speaking of Command Sections, come to think of it, Grenade Launchers at 5 points could actually survive in an environment fo 10 point Plasmas as long as you took them in Command Sections. Whenever I did field Grenade Launchers it was almost always in a group fo 4 in a Command Section. Reaching out and touching someone with a R24"AP4 Multi-Laser was interesting, as was the idea of 4 blast markers. Even won a game with 4 GLs (hit Seer Council, cause 25% casualties, they run off the table leaving the Wraith Gate at the table's edge, I proceed to dismantle the Ulthwe Strike Force army over the next 5 turns).

I dunno... I guess what I'm saying is I disagree about 15 point Plasma Guns in the most round-about way of saying that.



*I'm talking about myself here.

After all the talk of Creed being mandatory because of orders, has any thought of not building around orders?

Creed+Kell CHQ: 210 points for 4 orders at 24"
CHQ: 50pts for 2 orders at 12"

Since voxs suck your melta probably can't benefit, so HWS would get orders, of which you probably have 0-2? If you need more orders, another HQ is only 50pts. Still save enough points for another squad. 3x twin link lascannons or 6x lascannons?
Are there some combos I'm missing?

Edit: How much are CHQ banners and the psyker squads?

Couple thoughts on the sniper rifle....

Neil thanks for the math, that was cool. Did you manage to include rending in those sniper rifle calculations? I couldn't really tell. It won't skew your numbers too much.

With a 36" range the sniper rifle gets one more shot than any other special weapon the IG has, if the IG army goes first.

I shoot heavy bolters at MCs when I have heavy bolters, so I wouldn't feel like I'm wasting any shooting if I faced off against an MC army. Toughness 7 carnifexes maybe wouldn't be great HB targets.

I agree with the mismatch of the sniper rifle with autocannons though. When I have ACs I tend to shoot them at vehicles a lot. I think it'd be either plasma guns or nothing in a line squad featuring autocannons.

'bring it down' with 3 plasma gun shots and 6 autocannon shots in a 30 man blob sounds like it would severely hurt MCs. That unit runs 245 with a naked commissar. Would put just over 4 wounds on a T6 bad guy. T6 seems a popular toughness for aggressive MCs, lots of them have 3+ armor, so I'm thinking that unless you are putting the sniper rifle in a dedicated infantry killer, the plasma gun is better.

I've been trying to make grenade launchers work for 6 years. strength 3 small blast is insignificant, and the single bs3 strength 6 shot underwhelms as well. Its like a mini plasma gun shot with no fear factor and no real armor killing potential.

And like HBMC said about flamers and meltas... way too specific of a battlefield role for mixed unit line squad duty.

I think I'd rather cough up the 5 points for sniper rifles than run nothing. But I think it is really the only choice outside of a plasma gun.

I would not take Kell with Creed. Creed is basically +90 points for 2 more orders and 24" range. The 24" range is pretty huge, but I might try just using 2 CHQs instead. The lack of being able to charge and do some damage with his special order would suck though.

I think line squads are overrated as guard firebase.

I don't think there is any army out there, except perhaps specially tooled tau, that has a chance at winning a gunline battle with the guard in cover as everyone else is overcosted for the role for having armor. It doesn't matter if shooting units are not quite the toughest, if the opponent's plan to win involve out shooting guardsman one wouldn't need to worry. It is the fast, tough assault armies that probably would give the most trouble and thats what line squads exists to counter. If one just want guns, hydra/griffon/chimera/vets/vendy are all better than line guard.

If line guard are placed in the very front to take charges, flamer probably works just fine while expensive guns like plas probably would only get 1-2 turns of shooting before getting charged. In this case the gun would barely make back its cost against marines and not do much to everything else outside of terms. I can imagine using line squads as mobile speed bump and cover and have them run quite often to disrupt enemy plans.

2nd rank units that hides behind the front shoot at things stopped by the speed bump can probably be more effective shooting units like vets or even HWS. There should be enough vehicles in a guard army to block LOS to enemy heavy weapons if one really needs it.

-----
I also think the standard russ is probably not as useful as some of the posted lists suggests. It is specialized at killing marines at long range outside of cover, which should be the least of a guard armies worries. I think Demolisher + Mass Griffon is a good combination that covers both Hoard and super toughness units while being reasonable good against MEQ as well.

Reecius wrote:I am just bummed about no more deep stirking troops. I guess my army will no longer be the Tartarus 151st Airborne!

Oh well, I am happy with the dex as it looks on the whole. I am just exicted to start making some new lists.

Hey, you are not alone. My Valusian Airborne also lost their signature tactic ( at least until the Adeptus Munitorum supplies them with Valkyries ). Guess they will have to be reorganized as footslogging ( elite ) light infantry for the time being. No more daring assault jumps straight in the middle of enemy vanguard .

SWPIGWANG wrote:
I also think the standard russ is probably not as useful as some of the posted lists suggests. It is specialized at killing marines at long range outside of cover, which should be the least of a guard armies worries. I think Demolisher + Mass Griffon is a good combination that covers both Hoard and super toughness units while being reasonable good against MEQ as well.

agreed. Rear av11 is also really good. The russ is not obsolete though, it's range is valuable and the HB's don't hurt either.

Okay, just got a Russ today. It doesn't HAVE 3HBs?!? WTF? It only has the two for Sponsons and a LC. I guess I'll have some leftovers if I get a Demolisher. Or don't want sponsons on all of my tanks. Lame ass gak.

Scottywan82 wrote:Okay, just got a Russ today. It doesn't HAVE 3HBs?!? WTF? It only has the two for Sponsons and a LC. I guess I'll have some leftovers if I get a Demolisher. Or don't want sponsons on all of my tanks. Lame ass gak.

It's a GW stand-by - you can arm a squad/tank a certain way but you have to either pay extra or cannibalise something to do it first.

Is there going to be a new LRBT kit that will solve this problem.....don't hold your breath

The sponson heavy bolters have pretty bad detail anyway. I used the LC mount and a HW team HB to make my front mounted HB for my LRs.

I had two spare ones from a Land Raider kit that I added as Hull HB.

I built an ammo box on the side so that I could bend the ammo-feed up into it, rather than just cut it off.

I've also spent time making the weapons interchangeable - amazing what some small magnets can do.

I used metal Heavy Bolters from the old Exterminator kit. Of course this was back when GW had a bitz service, so I could order about 8 of them at once. I did make one Hull HB out of a sponson HB taken from a Demolisher, so I know that works.

I built the Lascannon and the HB as normal, then cut the Lascannon off, cut the HB off, and stuck the HB barrel to the Lascannon mounting - that ensured that it could still turn. Looks pretty good.

One of my hull mounted HBs is from an old Predator when they used to have metal sponsons!

Has anyone seen any new sprues for the tank kits?

There is no new tank kit.

What happened to it?

sA

It was never there to begin with?

Aha - the new Codex is a way to shift FW stuff then...who'd'ave thought it...

Noble713 wrote:Re: "wasted special slots"

I think people are approaching the problem wrong, but then again I see things through the "opportunity cost" perspective of Sourclams. An empty slot costs you no points. The slots are only wasted if the points not spent on special weapons are spent elsewhere on something that tries to fill the same role as the weapons, but does so poorly.

Bingo

HBMC wrote:
As I said - old Autocannon/Plasma Gun combo cost 25 points. The new one also costs 25 points. You gain 10 just because the squad went down, and you've lost none of your effectivness (you've actually gained some due to orders and base Ld8). So why change now?

If last year a truck was $30,000, and a used sedan was $15,000, and this year you can get the exact same thing except the truck is $20,000 and the used sedan is $25,000, you don't go "Net unchanged! It's all the same so why change now?", you take the cheap truck and forget about the used sedan. Nothing forces you to buy the overcosted weapon.


Scenario 3 Sniper 3 Plasma 3 GLKrak 3 Autocannon 2 Plasma Cannons (assuming 4 hits on direct hit)
Marines in open 0.42 ____ 1.26 ____ 0.42 ____ 0.84 ____2.22
Marines in cover 0.30 ____ 0.63 ____ 0.42 ____ 0.84 ____ 1.11
Orks in open 0.66 ____ 1.26 ____ 1.26 ____ 2.07 ____ 2.22
Orks in cover 0.39 ____ 0.63 ____ 0.63 ____ 1.26 ____ 1.11
Wraithlord in open 0.42 ____ 0.51 ____ 0.09 ____ 0.33 ____ 0.2
Wraithlord in cover 0.30 ____ 0.24 ____ 0.09 ____ 0.33 ____ 0.1
C'Tan 0.39 ____ 0.24 ____ 0.12 ____ 0.51 ____ 0.05
Assault Terminators 0.18 ____ 0.42 ____ 0.21 ____ 0.42____ 0.56 (only assuming 3 hits on direct hit)

So yeah, math is great when the comparisons are valid. What this tells me is that against targets that plasma guns are meant to kill, plasma cannons are nearly twice as effective for fewer points. And against targets that plasma guns aren't meant to kill, the yield is so low (3 plasma guns yield .25 wounds against C'tan. Oh goodie.) that you're better off using a more specialized weapon (TLLas) to do the job. And, I've weighted these calculations heavily against the usefulness of plasma cannons by assuming that any scatter results in 0 hits, so in reality the plasma cannons are probably 1.5-2x as effective as these calculations would show.

There is some credibility to the claim that "You can take both!", but I'm of the opinion that's only true until you get up to about the 50 point range (3 plasma guns). At 50 points, you can begin tweaking your list significantly.

But it's comfortable in the box, so why change?

Ok I have a few questions:

1. What type of kit would you give to Veteran Squads?? What special weapons would you arm them with? Would you give them a heavy weapon?

2. With the above vet squad, if you were to throw them into either a Valk or Vendi, which one would you choose??

3. If I have 4 platoons in an army, what would be the most optimal special weapon/Heavy weapon load out? Would you do 2xLas/Plas and 2xAC/Plas??

4. For Platoon Command Squads, again what weapon load out would be best? Or should they be nekkid and hanging back behind their respective platoon??

Thanks for your help!
Chappy P!

Scottywan82 wrote:Okay, just got a Russ today. It doesn't HAVE 3HBs?!? WTF? It only has the two for Sponsons and a LC. I guess I'll have some leftovers if I get a Demolisher. Or don't want sponsons on all of my tanks. Lame ass gak.

Hey! You know what I discovered! The Sponson and Hull Heavy Bolters from the Shadowsword and Baneblade kits are AWESOME replacements for the ugly ass sponson bolters (and the lascannons make good replacements, too!). Yeah, that's some expensive cannibalizing, but if you're building say, a Stormsword or Hellhamer with a bunch of heavy flamers (for maximum "Screw your cover" dickery), you'll have plenty of extras!


... Well it works for me.

I think the Plasma gun issue comes down to the players opinion to a certain point. As sourclams said when you do get beyond 50 points you start to use up points that can be used for other things.

Having said that though, I wouldn't ignore the math that was done sourclams, you just dismiss it out of hand like it doesn't matter, when it does. No one is claiming (well not that I saw) that the Plasma Gun is the best weapon choice in all situations, just that it is by far best all around weapon. It is either very good or at least good against just about everything and while it is more expensive than the other weapon choices it is by no means way over priced. It really comes down to whether you think the 15 point cost is worth the Plasma Gun or not, some will think so, others not but I think calling taking them "staying in the box" is really just silly. There has been plenty of hard evidence provided that they are at least a decent choice, if not a good one. Saying otherwise is putting your head in the sand in my opinion.

As far as opinions go I also happen to feel that not taking a special weapon in a fire line guard squad is silly. Granted you're not technically wasting anything by not taking them but those guard units are basically 10 wound ablative armor for the heavy and special weapons inside, while you are not losing anything by passing on special weapons you are removing a large possible gain. So instead of calling not taking them a waste, lets just say it's a loss of potential.

Perhaps GW will add a great value Bitz pack of HB (or other weapons); it will be a bargain, like the rest of them. 3 for £10 seems in line with their current policy.

wow 41 pages of ig players wineing about how they suck now but soon they will rule the board.


well ill join the wine fest.
i dont know about the new prices or if one way is a better deal or not, im just waiting for some concret evidence to work with.

and now the obligotory wine about how how ig suck right now, my current record for 4th ed is 2W 3D 13L
yea its that bad

and now the gushing about the new codex and how cool it will be, icant wait for the penal legionairs,it looks so cool and rending guardsmen, can i get a hell ya!!

that and the new tank the leman punisher, heavy twenty!!! TANKGASAM!!

sorry you had to read that.

I'm not sure why the Commisar Lord is 70 points. Stubborn/Fearless with a 6" Ld bubble plus a statline marginally better than an Inquisitor Lord? Is there some special rule that I'm missing? Does he come with some wargear?

(Unrelated) So he doesn't have access to an Inv. Sv.? And, if he can get a camo cloak/carapace for free if he's IN A CCS, how does that work? Can he be bought as an upgrade for a CCS or vice versa?

Chaplain Pallantide wrote:Ok I have a few questions:

1. What type of kit would you give to Veteran Squads?? What special weapons would you arm them with? Would you give them a heavy weapon?

Meltas. Vets can serve as line troops, but I think their most common use will be in a Sternguard-esque capacity, primarily outflanking in Chims or riding high in Vendettas/Valkyries. But with such a friendly point cost, I think we could definitely see a line capacity role for BS4 models.

2. With the above vet squad, if you were to throw them into either a Valk or Vendi, which one would you choose??

Again, meltas.

Having said that though, I wouldn't ignore the math that was done sourclams, you just dismiss it out of hand like it doesn't matter, when it does. No one is claiming (well not that I saw) that the Plasma Gun is the best weapon choice in all situations, just that it is by far best all around weapon.

I am not disregarding the math. I understand that a plasma gun is the all around best weapon IG line squads can possess, but I am not viewing it as a better/worse index, I am examining it based on opportunity cost as a function of overall synergy. The plasma gun only outperforms other choices on a relatively insignificant level (i.e. 1-2 total plasma guns). Once you begin talking about basis for standardization (I picked 8 as the sacred number because 8 line squads seems a reasonable basis from my play experience) then their point cost becomes so prohibitive that taking more plasma guns forces you to take fewer of something else.

The plasma gun is overcosted for 5th edition. Because other key areas (basic IG units, efficient heavy weapons) are costed more effectively does not somehow make the plasma gun fit into the overall system, it makes it even more of an outlier.

I find myself curiously amused that there's actually a legitimate discussion about what special weapon to take in Guard squads. It's not just "take plasma in line squads".

I want to throw in a use for the plasma that I haven't seen discussed (although I might have missed it). Plasma is not only generic fire support, it is extremely useful against assaulters. Recently consolidated assault troops are much less likely to be in cover, and are more likely to be in double tap range. A lot of assault troops also tend to be tough and well armored. Against this kind of foe in this situation (which seems to be a pretty common situation in my experience), plasma is especially valuable.

I will grant that in this situation, a flamer can often perform this role as well or better than a plasma gun, but it can't influence as wide an area, and it can't provide fire support on the turns leading up.

sourclams wrote:and at ranges of 12" or less almost 1/3 of your plasma gunners die after firing. .

Should still by 1/6 right? Plasma now only overheats on a 1 regardless of number of shots (unless IG has crappier gear).

@Sourclams:

My second question wasn't about Meltaguns, it was which transport would be best for the Veteran team, a Valkyrie or Vendetta?

Somnicide wrote:

sourclams wrote:and at ranges of 12" or less almost 1/3 of your plasma gunners die after firing. .

Should still by 1/6 right? Plasma now only overheats on a 1 regardless of number of shots (unless IG has crappier gear).

2 shots == 11/36 chance of rolling at least one '1.' 1/3 chance of making an armor save; you're going to lose a double-tapping guardsman about 1/5 of the time.

Somnicide wrote:

sourclams wrote:and at ranges of 12" or less almost 1/3 of your plasma gunners die after firing. .

Should still by 1/6 right? Plasma now only overheats on a 1 regardless of number of shots (unless IG has crappier gear).

Your both wrong

At 12" you get two shots, 1/3 chance to overheat and a 2/3 chance to fail your armor save. So about a 2/9 chance to die. Of course if you want to get even more accurate, i am sure a math major could help us out.

I am working on putting some test lists together, how much infantry are people thinking of taking? or tanks?

Gestalt wrote:I am working on putting some test lists together, how much infantry are people thinking of taking? or tanks?

I played a test game with 3x10 veterans in chimeras with 3x3 meltaguns. With the other threatening units I had in play and conservative play, it was ample.

If I ran a footslogging infantry build, I'd probably use two masses of infantry platoons (3x10 joined up with a commissar) I'd probably use a couple special weapon squads in valkyries to make attempts on far away objectives.

The rest goes right in to tanks

I've takn 6 russes before, I didn't like it. I think 3 would be cool, and probably a mix of artillery and hydras.

3 Leman Russes and 2 Manticores would be pretty sweet, imo.

I figure that I'm going to do 2 squads of Vets in Chimeras with Flamers (I play a lot of Orks, dontchaknow), and then a mass infantry platoon of 30 dudes with a Commissar.

This talk about plasma cannon sponsons for Russes is pretty interesting. I had dismissed them out of hand at first as being way too expensive compared to HB sponsons, but now I am rethinking that.

Now I just don't know what to do:
1: Put them on my demolisher (only tank left to build)
2: Put multi-meltas on my demolisher (my first plan) and just buy another russ for the plasma.

Help?

Wehrkind wrote:This talk about plasma cannon sponsons for Russes is pretty interesting. I had dismissed them out of hand at first as being way too expensive compared to HB sponsons, but now I am rethinking that.

Now I just don't know what to do:
1: Put them on my demolisher (only tank left to build)
2: Put multi-meltas on my demolisher (my first plan) and just buy another russ for the plasma.

Help?

Well I'm always going to vote for 'just buy another one'. But that's just me.

PC sponsons seems a bit more powerful than MM sponsons, if you are going to be pairing MM with a lascannon it ends up being 5 points more than the plasma cannon heavy bolter.

Patiently waiting for a heavy tank to get within 12" of your russ seems kinda maddening to me.

Not that I'm not going to have 3x MM sponsoned chassies

Chaplain Pallantide wrote:@Sourclams:

My second question wasn't about Meltaguns, it was which transport would be best for the Veteran team, a Valkyrie or Vendetta?

If you're looking at it solely from the perspective of creating a good ride for Vets, the Valkyrie will do a better job inserting them while providing a mobile firing platform since it can move 12" and fire all guns. However, for 30 points, the Vendetta is a much deadlier firing platform in subsequent rounds, primarily due to its ability to score side armor shots and the psychological value that will have on the fight.

Now, to really get into the nuts and bolts of the question, an outflanking chimera (assuming vets can take a chimera) will probably be best as it's still capable of moving 12" and disembarking its models, but it costs roughly half as much as the others. If your sole concern is a cheap taxi, I'd go with a Chimera over both. Between the Valk and the Vendie, I'd probably go with the Vendie.

At 12" you get two shots, 1/3 chance to overheat and a 2/3 chance to fail your armor save. So about a 2/9 chance to die. Of course if you want to get even more accurate, i am sure a math major could help us out

2/9 is an obscure fraction so I went with "almost 1/3". .22 or .33. I guess I consider a difference of .11 "almost".

sourclams wrote:If last year a truck was $30,000, and a used sedan was $15,000, and this year you can get the exact same thing except the truck is $20,000 and the used sedan is $25,000, you don't go "Net unchanged! It's all the same so why change now?", you take the cheap truck and forget about the used sedan. Nothing forces you to buy the overcosted weapon.

False analogy. You're comparing two similar items. Plasma Guns and Plasma Cannons, despite names and even a common Strength and AP, are not similar items.

sourclams wrote:*snip - a bunch of meaningless math*

Giant tautology. A blast S7 AP2 weapon is better at killing infantry than a non-blast S7 AP2 weapon? That's a revelation on a scale with the recent thread in tactics about how Meltaguns were superior to Lascannons at killing vehicles. Truly cutting-edge stuff there. What's next? Flamers are better than Lascannons at killing hordes.

And, once agian, you're creating a false dilema by comparing the Plasma Gun and Plasma Cannon to one another, and then citing that one is clearly better at killing infantry. That's great, because the Plasma Gun isn't there to kill infantry, not when it's matched with an Autocannon.

See Sourclams, this comes down to something I harp on about endlessly when I've helped people make Guard lists in the past:

Roles.

Every weapon and unit in this game has (or should have) a role. A weapon or unit's worth is determined by two factors:

1. How well it achieves this role.
2. How well it achieves this role compared to other units/weapons that have the same or a similar role.

A 36" Blast weapon and a 24" Rapid Fire weapon do not have the same role, so making a comparison between them is useless, and claiming that one is better than the other because one can't fill the role the other one fills is a falsle dilema - you are trying to create a problem where there is none. For the very same reason you don't compare a Flamer and a Lascannon and declare the Lascannon worthless or overpriced because it can't kill hordes is the exact same reason why comparing a Plasma Cannon and a Plasma Gun doesn't work.

On a Demolisher, or on an Executioner, these weapons are used to crack heavy infantry - that's the role it has been assigned thanks to the weapons GW has given it. Hell, with the sheer amount of blast markers the Executioner puts out, if can even go after hordes, allowing the Executioner to be compared to other types of Russes, most of which are anti-infantry. A Plasma Gun in a line squad doesn't go after Heavy Infantry - it's not its desired target therefore it is not its role. A Plasma Gun in a line squad is there to support the heavy weapon it is slaved to. In the case of an Autocannon, as they are both Strength 7, its obvious target is AV12 and below vehicles, and that weird area of the game where T6-8 exists. That's what it does. It doesn't hunt Terminators, it doesn't go after Marines, and it doesn't have the firepower (like an Executioner does) to tackle hordes with multiple blasts.

And the simple reason for this is that it was never designed to do that. Just like a Flamer isn't meant to crack tanks and a Lascannon can't torch a tighty packed mob of Shoota boys, the Plasma Gun, when placed in the role of an Autocannon-supporting weapon, isn't meant to do what a Plasma Cannon does.

So please, once again, enough with this bull-gak false delima you've concocted. In a vaccum the comparisons aren't good for the Plasma Gun - 15 points vs 20 points - but comparing weapons in a vacuum is a terrible way to work out a weapon's worth. We don't look at army list choices in a vacuum when we make lists, so why should we do it for weapons? How else do you make comparisons without taking things into a vaccum?

sourclams wrote:But it's comfortable in the box, so why change?

That's fine. Call me ignorant, stuck in my own box/POV - ad hominem at me until the fething cows come home. I don't care. All I care about is pointing out that comparing a medium range anti-infantry weapons to a short-to-medium ranged anti-light vehicle/MC weapon is fething pointless for the same reasons we don't compare Flamers and Lascannons to see which is better at killing infantry.

sourclams wrote:The plasma gun is overcosted for 5th edition.

I won't argue that. I agree with you 100%. My point is though that the overcosting is meaningless because the weapon you paired it with went down by the same amount the Plasma Gun went up, absorbing the price increase - and then the cost of the squad overall went down by 10 points. So Guard players who were already bringing AC/Plas Squads (or even LC/Plas Squads, as the same price issue occurs with them thanks to the Lascannon going down to 20 points) have lost nothing in this transfer and, in fact, have gained 10 points they didn't have before (and Ld8, and Frags).

The overcosting of the Plasma Gun simply changes where it appears in the list, not whether you should take it or not. Taking 4 in a Command Squad is a bad idea now, as the cost has gone up by 20 points - maybe even 30 if command sections are 50 points rather than 40 - so that's a bad place for the Plasma Gun now. It's gone up 20 points for no gain, making it worth more to you when it dies and robbing you of 20-30 points that could be better spent elsewhere. In H-Vet units 3 Plasma Guns makes the unit 15 points more expensive, but the net here is 5 points more expensive as H-Vets are now 70 for 10 rather than 80. But here, once again, if we stop looking at things in a vacuum and make comparisons to what the role of the Vets is, the Meltagun is a better choice. Not a better weapon mind you, because comparing Meltaguns to Plasma Guns is pointless, but a better choice for their intended role. Plus with the H-Vets the same 3-melta squad now costs 10 points less, so you save points there as well.

So I'll say it one last time, and then I'm done with it:

The Plasma Gun and the Plasma Cannon are weapons designed for vastly different roles. Sharing Strength and AP does not mean that they are used for the same thing. The longer range and blast marker on the Plasma Gun clearly pegs it as a devastating anti-heavy infantry weapon, whereas the Plasma Gun is more akin to a scalpel - used for very specific targets, either in the T6-8 bracket or, most effectivley, attacking AV12 and below vehicles with paired with another S7 weapon. In most cases the AP2 of the Plasma Cannon is meaningless - what matters is the Strength. Putting 3 S7 shots into a Trukk or Rhino that's 24" away is a good amount of firepower. You wouldn't fire an Executioner's 5 Plasma Cannon shots at a Rhino now would you? No. It's not meant to hunt vehicles. I can, on the virtue of also having S7, but that's not its role.

So cut the false dilemas and false analogies. Stop trying to isolate the Plasma Gun and Plasma Cannon as absolutes without looking at what they're meant to be doing, not what you want them to be doing, and understand that the AC/Plas and even LC/Plas squads that we've all been bringing for years have actually gotten cheaper so the idea that you're missing out on other things by taking them is utterly untrue.

.

The "role" of all weapons in all codices in all of WH40k is to kill things.

Plasma guns don't kill things good enough to be worth 15 points per selection once you dump more than 2 into a list.

Once you do that, you're much better off taking a special upgrade to something else, which you otherwise couldn't afford because you bought a bunch of expensive plasma guns.

It's "role"? False dichotomies aside, their role is killing stuff. They don't kill little stuff better than more lasguns, they don't kill big stuff better than plasma cannons or that extra Vendetta. AP2 isn't valuable in 5th edition.

What am I going to rely on for killing Ork or IG-equivalent units? Not the plasma gun.

What am I going to rely on for killing MEQ? Not the [15 point] plasma gun.

What am I going to rely on for breaking groups of infantry? Not the plasma gun.

What am I going to rely on for sweeping assaulters that chopped through a line squad? Not the plasma gun.

Side shots on armor? Not the plasma gun.

The plasma gun was designed, since this seems to be so important, to kill models while allowing no save. Because of everything worth shooting with a plasma gun having cover or invulnerable saves, this no longer works. Giving line IG plasma guns is equivalent to giving Tac squads power fists or power weapons: expensive toys that prevent taking different selections that will do the job better.

Of course if you want to get even more accurate, i am sure a math major could help us out.

Not a math major but the number I get falls between 1/5 and 2/9

--1/6 OH * 2/3 fail save = 1/9. So 1/9 chance of death from a single overheat and 8/9 chance of not over heating
--Chance of not overheating on two shots is 8/9*8/9 = ~79.0%
Chance of overheat on two shots is 1-above= ~21.0% Nowhere near 1/3 chance of an overheat.

winterman wrote:

Of course if you want to get even more accurate, i am sure a math major could help us out.

Not a math major but the number I get falls between 1/5 and 2/9

--1/6 OH * 2/3 fail save = 1/9. So 1/9 chance of death from a single overheat and 8/9 chance of not over heating
--Chance of not overheating on two shots is 8/9*8/9 = ~79.0%
Chance of overheat on two shots is 1-above= ~21.0% Nowhere near 1/3 chance of an overheat.

21%? Cool I was 1% off hehe


I swear, it doesn't feel like 21% :(

Thankyou for ignoring everything I just wrote, especially where I pointed out that the AP of the Plasma Gun was largley irrelevent (and has been even before 5th Ed) because it was the Strength that mattered.

And, once again, I agree that they don't kill enough to be worth 15 points - but thankfully that cost has been absorbed with the Autocannon going down 5 points, so it doesn't matter that it's 5 points more expensive because the list doesn't feel it. If Autocannons were still 15 I'd be right along side you - probably taking a Grenade Launcher - but it hasn't.

sourclams wrote:their role is killing stuff

Idiotic and totally meaningless tautology.

No gak they're meant to kill stuff. It's what kinds of stuff they're meant to be killing that's important. Plasma Guns and Plasma Cannons are both meant to kill things, but they're not meant to kill the same things.

There's no false dichotomy when you're comparing a 36" blast weapon to a 24" rapid fire weapon. Get that through your skull. These weapons do different things just like a Lascannon and a Flamer do different things.

Sourclams and HBMC are arguing about numbers, now, as one admits that plasma is good in limited numbers while the latter concedes that the plasma gun is overcosted. The only difference, if any, is in the actual amount of plasma each would include in a given list. That said, I do have some problems with a few statements.

sourclams wrote:AP2 isn't valuable in 5th edition.

AP3 isn't valuable, AP2 still is. Even against assautl terminators, it's doubles the amount of saves failed, and increases the wounds done by 2.5 times. that's 5 times the killing power of a lasgun for only 4 times the cost. Not a bad price by me.

What am I going to rely on for killing MEQ? Not the [15 point] plasma gun.

Well, even if they're in cover, you're dropping 1.5x the marines, and again wounding 2.5 times as often, for 3.75x the effectiveness of a lasgun, for 4x the cost. Not a bad deal, considering assaulting units often end out out of cover.

Side shots on armor? Not the plasma gun.

Why not? It's just as mobile as the melta gun....

So you insist that the plasma gun has its role, but I really don't see what it is. Giving line IG plasma guns is equivalent to giving Tac squads power fists or power weapons: expensive toys that prevent taking different selections that will do the job better.

That's a bad analogy, because fists are only useful in combat and tactical squads don't want to be in combat. IG squads are good at shooting, right? And plasma guns make a squad better at shooting, right? I'm not saying you need to go wall to wall with plasma, but do you really not see any viable use for them? Despite them being the best choice, among IG specials, against any number of top targets?

Polonius wrote:

sourclams wrote:AP2 isn't valuable in 5th edition.

AP3 isn't valuable, AP2 still is.

Not arguing either way, but could you expand on this point? I understand why AP2 is valuable, Terms/FNP, but why isn't AP3 valuable?

H.B.M.C. wrote:
And, once again, I agree that they don't kill enough to be worth 15 points - but thankfully that cost has been absorbed with the Autocannon going down 5 points, so it doesn't matter that it's 5 points more expensive because the list doesn't feel it. If Autocannons were still 15 I'd be right along side you - probably taking a Grenade Launcher - but it hasn't.

Honestly, I agree with you, and I barely understand what you mean by that. Yes, the overall squad has stayed the same price, but if you can genuinely get the effectiveness you want or need out of a 5pt flamer or GL, than buying the plasma gun is an additional expense. The analogy I would use is this: let's say you always get a burger and fries for lunch, and the burger is $3 and fries are $2. If the burger goes down to $2.50 while the fries go up to $2.50, that's fine, that's a wash. But if Chips are available for $0.75, and you like chips enough not to miss the fries, than it makes sense to save the money.

I think what you're trying to say is that the Squad with AC and PG is a valuable squad, and that while one component is overprice, another is under priced. That's not the point, however. The point is that at 75pts, the AC/PG squad is a great one. It offers a lot of S7 shooting and a bit of a surprise to any heavily armored foe that walks to close out of cover. at 65pts, the AC/GL is also good, but not quite as punchy and not nearly as versatile.

Gestalt wrote:

Polonius wrote:

sourclams wrote:AP2 isn't valuable in 5th edition.

AP3 isn't valuable, AP2 still is.

Not arguing either way, but could you expand on this point? I understand why AP2 is valuable, Terms/FNP, but why isn't AP3 valuable?

AP3 used to come at a premium, because the game was flooded with MEQs and cover was pretty hard to come by. Now, Orks, eldar and hopefully IG are much more common, invulnerable saves are more common, and cover is vastly more common. In addition, FNP is more common than ever. It's not that AP3 isn't' worth pursuing, it's just before AP3 meant most models in the game got no save, while now it means that a plurality of models will get no armor save, but will often get a cover save that is almost as good. its' a bit of a meta game thing, and probably not true, but for years GW costed AP3 pretty highly. They've gotten better, but there's still surprising little reason to bump a single gun up to AP3 at anything more than a minor pts. increase.

Polonius wrote:Honestly, I agree with you, and I barely understand what you mean by that.

Odd. The rest of your post would seem to indicate that you do.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Polonius wrote:Honestly, I agree with you, and I barely understand what you mean by that.

Odd. The rest of your post would seem to indicate that you do.

Well, if that's the case, than it turned out I did understand, but I wasn't sure.

Polonius wrote:Honestly, I agree with you, and I barely understand what you mean by that. Yes, the overall squad has stayed the same price, but if you can genuinely get the effectiveness you want or need out of a 5pt flamer or GL, than buying the plasma gun is an additional expense. The analogy I would use is this: let's say you always get a burger and fries for lunch, and the burger is $3 and fries are $2. If the burger goes down to $2.50 while the fries go up to $2.50, that's fine, that's a wash. But if Chips are available for $0.75, and you like chips enough not to miss the fries, than it makes sense to save the money.

I think you're getting a lot closer than other people, but the end goal isn't maximizing the utility of the IG line squad, it's maximizing effectiveness of the total army.

To use your burger and fry analogy, the goal isn't to strike an optimal balance for lunch (burgers and fries/chips), it's to eliminate hunger. When burgers were $3 and fries are $2, you get one of each, but when burgers are $2.50 and fries are the same, you just buy a bunch of burgers.

The analogy actually referred to the heavy/special divide, hence two options. I'm assuming that everybody is going to buy one of each, hence the analogy.

I wish I could buy two burgers, but I can't.

i have a solution to the sourclams and H.B.M.C. debate.
sourclams , you don't take any plasma guns. H.B.M.C. take as many as you think you need. i don't think either one of you are going to convince the other. and as you 2 differ on there value, so do the rest of us reading the debate. i see the value they have in line squads coupled with the AC and in command/SWS squads. just as i see that value, there will be someone else who doesn't. i feel you 2 should agree to disagree. just my $.02.

No, I think Polonius's analogy is better. You can not load up on "burgers" becuase you are still buying the squad, and must factor points that not only include the cost of the weapon, but the unit that fields the weapon as well.

I am actually leaning towars polonius's point. I think that I will still be taking plasma, but I may be mixing in a few nade launchers as well. Ironically, the nade launcher might show up in a mortar squad. "good lord did I just type that?" I can not belive I am even contimplating that, but you are looking at a cheap squad, that I would not mind moving if I had too, and would be one of my, front of the unit, speedbump squads. (before you say it should be a flamer, i think that they work better in the second line. Flamers in the front squad usually get shot away or assaulted before they can shoot.)

foil7102 wrote:No, I think Polonius's analogy is better. You can not load up on "burgers" becuase you are still buying the squad, and must factor points that not only include the cost of the weapon, but the unit that fields the weapon as well.

So... in this particular analogy it's less about the actual burgers and fries, but the ketchup that comes with them?

For 5$ you're still getting the same amount of ketchup, but you're now getting more on your burger then an even split between burgers and fries.

Wait... does that work? DAMN convoluted analogies are fun.

End solution:

Say "Screw it" and go get tacos.

Has anyone run a "Meat Shield" squad with no HW/SW at all?

I've never used this tactic but have wondered if it works.
I see it screening more important squads from long range shooting and then taking the beatdown in the Assault Phase.

In the new codex, conscripts would seem the 'natural' choice but a 50 point line squad is cheaper.

JB wrote:Has anyone run a "Meat Shield" squad with no HW/SW at all?

I've never used this tactic but have wondered if it works.
I see it screening more important squads from long range shooting and then taking the beatdown in the Assault Phase.

In the new codex, conscripts would seem the 'natural' choice but a 50 point line squad is cheaper.

the problem there is that there is no reason not include a heavy and a special. for 15pts you can get some decent shooting, why wouldn't you?

Polonius wrote:

JB wrote:Has anyone run a "Meat Shield" squad with no HW/SW at all?

I've never used this tactic but have wondered if it works.
I see it screening more important squads from long range shooting and then taking the beatdown in the Assault Phase.

In the new codex, conscripts would seem the 'natural' choice but a 50 point line squad is cheaper.

the problem there is that there is no reason not include a heavy and a special. for 15pts you can get some decent shooting, why wouldn't you?

I've never used this tactic so I'm speculating...what if you were pessimistic and assumed your opponent would get the first turn and vaporize your forward layer of infantry squads?

JB wrote:Has anyone run a "Meat Shield" squad with no HW/SW at all?

I did run Conscripts for a while, but that was usually in my MechInf armies to bulk up numbers. For regular Guard armies I took HB/Flamer squads. They were the cheapest squads around at 76 points each and did the job of a 'meatshield' that could actually do something before getting mulched by angry Assault Terminators or Gaunts or Boyz or whatever.

Now that squad is even cheaper (65 points) so there's simply no reason to bring a squad without its full compliment of weapons. And I'd much rather have a speedbump squad participating in the game before they are killed rather than just when they are killed.

Well, than they're not shooting at the more valuable squads behind, but that's a silly opponent that does that. Why would he shoot at a squad that will accomplish nothing, and whose existence provides for an earlier assault for his close combat troops?

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Roles.

Every weapon and unit in this game has (or should have) a role. A weapon or unit's worth is determined by two factors:

1. How well it achieves this role.
2. How well it achieves this role compared to other units/weapons that have the same or a similar role.

A 36" Blast weapon and a 24" Rapid Fire weapon do not have the same role, so making a comparison between them is useless, and claiming that one is better than the other because one can't fill the role the other one fills is a falsle dilema - you are trying to create a problem where there is none. For the very same reason you don't compare a Flamer and a Lascannon and declare the Lascannon worthless or overpriced because it can't kill hordes is the exact same reason why comparing a Plasma Cannon and a Plasma Gun doesn't work.

Ok, so a plasma gun mated to an autocannon shoots at AV12 vehicles. Let's compare 5 plasma guns @ 75pts to one Hydra @ 75pts. Hydra A = 2xtwin-linked Hydra autocannons. Hydra B = 4 Hydra autocannons. I'm not sure which armament rumor has been locked down as accurate. Here's all three weapon systems engaging AV12 (i.e. performing the same role as a line-squad autocannon team).


5 Plasma Guns @ 24": 5 shots, 2.5 hits, 0.416 glances & 0.416 penetrations
5 Plasma Guns @ 12": 10 shots, 5 hits, 0.833 glances & 0.833 penetrations
Hydra A: 4 shots, 3 hits, 0.495 glances & 0.495 penetrations
Hydra B: 8 shots, 4 hits, 0.66 glances & 0.66 penetrations

So the Plasma Gun is worse than either possible Hydra config except at rapid-fire range. Also, keep in mind that over multiple turns of sustained fire shooting, the effectiveness of the plasma guns will decline due to Gets Hot! casualties, so the capability gap will only increase, even in the absence of enemy action. This doesn't even take into account that the Hydra autocannons have 3x the range of the plasma gun, so they'll be popping transports long before the PGs do.

Don't forget you can shake a hydra with a single shot, while 5 plasma guns are spread out and hard to kill.

Polonius wrote:Well, than they're not shooting at the more valuable squads behind, but that's a silly opponent that does that. Why would he shoot at a squad that will accomplish nothing, and whose existence provides for an earlier assault for his close combat troops?

Only because everything behind the "Meat Shield" gets a 4+ Cover Save.

I don't think any IG commander would let the Shield take an assault in Turn 1. If the Shield survived the first round of shooting it would probably move so that friendly units would have a clear shot at the enemy while putting the Shield in position to take the enemy assault in Turn 2. Better to let a unit of Nob Bikers assault the Shield, clobber it, and then consolidate in the open where the IG can shoot it to death in their Turn 2.

I get the point about making the Shield a cheaply armed line squad. I'll keep it in mind. I run two infantry platoons now - all with HW/SW - but will probably switch to Veteran Mechanized before trying another list with predominantly line infantry platoons again. If I have fun playing Mech, I may not switch back to ground pounding "crunchies" at all.

JB wrote:

Polonius wrote:Well, than they're not shooting at the more valuable squads behind, but that's a silly opponent that does that. Why would he shoot at a squad that will accomplish nothing, and whose existence provides for an earlier assault for his close combat troops?

Only because everything behind the "Meat Shield" gets a 4+ Cover Save.

Except, if you're a savvy player, what do you shoot: the dangerous squad with a cover save, or the worthless squad that is a threat?

I don't think any IG commander would let the Shield take an assault in Turn 1. If the Shield survived the first round of shooting it would probably move so that friendly units would have a clear shot at the enemy while putting the Shield in position to take the enemy assault in Turn 2. Better to let a unit of Nob Bikers assault the Shield, clobber it, and then consolidate in the open where the IG can shoot it to death in their Turn 2.

I agree, but there is still pretty much no reason not to at least throw a flamer in there to take the shot, or an autocannon to stop a transport.

Polonius wrote:
I agree, but there is still pretty much no reason not to at least throw a flamer in there to take the shot, or an autocannon to stop a transport.

You and HBMC have convinced me that a SW is mandatory for a Meatshield squad, but I still expect to move it - if it survives shooting - so I'm not sold on the HW. I also think that a GL might be the right "cheap" SW since I'm probably not moving the Meatshield close enough to the enemy to use the flame template.

JB wrote:

Polonius wrote:
I agree, but there is still pretty much no reason not to at least throw a flamer in there to take the shot, or an autocannon to stop a transport.

You and HBMC have convinced me that a SW is mandatory for a Meatshield squad, but I still expect to move it - if it survives shooting - so I'm not sold on the HW. I also think that a GL might be the right "cheap" SW since I'm probably not moving the Meatshield close enough to the enemy to use the flame template.

I think if there's any chance that the squad might stay put, a 5pt mortar has value, but if you truly plan to move every turn then of course you dont' want a heavy.

Noble713 wrote:So the Plasma Gun is worse than either possible Hydra config except at rapid-fire range. Also, keep in mind that over multiple turns of sustained fire shooting, the effectiveness of the plasma guns will decline due to Gets Hot! casualties, so the capability gap will only increase, even in the absence of enemy action. This doesn't even take into account that the Hydra autocannons have 3x the range of the plasma gun, so they'll be popping transports long before the PGs do.

Your point being? The Hydra being good at anti-AV12 and below isn't news. Are you making an argument against AC/Plas squads using the Hydra's existance as proof? The Hydra is actually perfect in those role - two 72" range S7 AP4 Heavy 2/Twin-Linked guns! What a fanastic weapon. It's role is obvious, and it's good at it.

It also takes up the same Heavy Support slot Russes do.

Consider that.

See while Sourclams tried to talk up the either/or nature of AC/Plas squads vs Executioners - which is false as they take up different slots, are used against different targets, and neither competes with one another - Hydras are and either/or proposition for a Guard Commander because it's them or tanks. Granted, you can bring more tanks than before, but we're talking points here.

You're going to bring troops anyway - that's a given - you have to bring infantry of some sort, and 75 point AC/Plas squads are an absolute fething steal. So with your points already invested ahead of time on Infantry, is it wise to spend more points on something that fills the same role as the AC/Plas squad, even when that thing - the Hyda in this case - is better than the AC/Plas squad at its chosen role.

If you've got the points for it, and you've already covered your other bases (good anti-infantry and good anti-tank) then sure - go for it - but if you army is lacking either one of those two, and already has the AC/Plas squdas, then why are you bringing more of the same sorts of guns when your list has other decifiencies.

I'll say it again - nothing exists in a vacuum. You can't just go "Ha! The Hydra is better than an AC/Plas squad, end of story!". It's a lot more complicated than that. It doesn't always boil down to Mathhammer, and points are not always the great leveller. The role a unit plays, the role the unit plays in the whole army, how it interacts with other units, what slots these units go into - all these things have to be considered.

If you weren't trying to say that due to the Hydra existing AC/Plas squads are worthless, then fine, you can mostly ignore what I wrote above, but if that is what you were saying I'd ask you to remember what list construction is about, and how cherry picking two units for a comparison that completely separates them from their parent list is not a good way to go about designing armies.

This is the longest wargaming-related thread I've ever seen on Dakka.

Noble713 wrote:Ok, so a plasma gun mated to an autocannon shoots at AV12 vehicles. Let's compare 5 plasma guns @ 75pts to one Hydra @ 75pts.

OK, I haven't weighed in on the Hydra, but I've got to say that it this is a horrible comparison that ignores the most important consideration:

A Hydra is a Heavy Support choice

That means that Hydras compete with Russes and Basilisks. If you are spending points on non-Scoring Heavies, those points need to go into S8+ AP3+ pie plates. If you're spending them on S7 AP4 shots, that's a complete waste of points until such time as Eldar / Tau Grav Tanks start dominating the skies.

John is on the money here... but he's just repeating what I said essentially. See why the ignore feature is useless Jonny... oh... you don't... because you can't see my post.

Oh well...

Anung - I'm pretty sure this is the longst thread Dakka's ever had aside form any year-long modelling blogs that might still exist. And while we're long since moved from going on about rumours, we are still having a big discussion about a product yet to come out. It's refreshing to be honest, quite different from the usual nonsense.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
It also takes up the same Heavy Support slot Russes do.

True, by far it's biggest negative point.

You're going to bring troops anyway - that's a given - you have to bring infantry of some sort, and 75 point AC/Plas squads are an absolute fething steal.

Is it, though? (That's an honest question.) Quite a few people are considering other options, like veterans in Chimeras, and even just full-on vet squads.

If you've got the points for it, and you've already covered your other bases (good anti-infantry and good anti-tank) then sure - go for it - but if you army is lacking either one of those two, and already has the AC/Plas squdas, then why are you bringing more of the same sorts of guns when your list has other decifiencies.

I've noticed you've done this consistently throughout the thread: take the inclusion of the AC/Plas squad as a foregone conclusion. I'm trying not to look at *anything* that way. Starting from a clean slate.

It doesn't always boil down to Mathhammer, and points are not always the great leveller. The role a unit plays, the role the unit plays in the whole army, how it interacts with other units, what slots these units go into - all these things have to be considered.

If you weren't trying to say that due to the Hydra existing AC/Plas squads are worthless, then fine, you can mostly ignore what I wrote above, but if that is what you were saying I'd ask you to remember what list construction is about, and how cherry picking two units for a comparison that completely separates them from their parent list is not a good way to go about designing armies.

I think we're on the same page: every situation is different and entire armies need to be built as whole. Sure, if you desperately need pie plates, and you have plenty of extra points lying around, then taking plasma guns isn't a terrible course of action.

but...

If your supply of pie is sufficient, you have a pressing need to kill light vehicles, and you are extremely conscious about point-optimization, it makes more sense to take a Hydra than to stuff your squads with PGs for this particular task. So AC/Plas can't always be assumed as the default best-choice.

OK, I spent a big of time on the train this morning, playing around with potential lists.

- I'm having a hard time getting away from suicide CHQ's. 90 points, BS4, 4 Meltaguns, can call Bring it Down on themselves... that just kills a tank dead. I'm not seeing any other use for CHQ's since they're just not durable enough to hinge an orders-based plan around - I'm tending towards Commisar Lord or Primaris Psyker if I don't want a suicide CHQ.

- Vets with 3 Meltaguns for 100 points is a bargain. There's even the option of a demo charge for 30 points, something to consider. I can definitely see taking only vets as troops as viable.

- Valks definitely have a place. Vendettas may have transport capacity, but it doesn't gell too well with their role - they like sitting back at max range on the flanks of the table. You can put a special weapon squad in there to make it scoring and zip onto an objective turn 5, but they're not the go to vehicle for getting meltaguns into opposing tanks on turn 1.

- I think Flamer/Autocannon is the best Line Squad equipment. Whilst Snipers looked cute at first, there's really nowhere else to put Flamers into the list.

- Sniper PHQ's look to be a good objective sitter.

- Russes are expensive! Plasma sponsons add up quickly!

Anyhow, here's another rough 1500 point list:

Company Command with 4 Meltaguns, Chimera
Platoon Command with 4 Sniper Rifles
4 Infantry Squads with Flamers and Autocannons, 1 Commisar
Veterans with 3 Meltaguns
Veterans with 3 Meltaguns
Valkyrie with Missile Pods
Valkyrie with Missile Pods
Leman Russ Eradicator with Heavy Bolter sponsons
Leman Russ Demolisher with Plasma Sponsons, Lascannon
2 Griffons


Stats:

7 low strength large blasts
1 Demolisher cannon
10 BS4 meltaguns
4 heavy bolters
3 Multilasers
4 Autocannons
4 Flamers
2 plasmacannons
1 Lascannon

Seems like not enough guns.

Noble713 wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:
It also takes up the same Heavy Support slot Russes do.

True, by far it's biggest negative point.

Not really, because of squadrons. No IG list is going to feature 7+ Russes, and vehicle squadrons are not a bad thing when it comes to offensive blast firepower. I know people want to avoid them like the plague, but squadrons let you maximize your firepower, so the immo=destroyed is a wash.

Filling force org slots isn't going to be a huge hindrance to IG players with the new dex.

Do you think people will take squads of 3 leman russes? 2 seems like the most it would be sensible to take at once, and I can see it being very common for guard to take 2 squads of 2 tanks, and some sort of support tank, which might or might not be a hydra.

I see 2 squads of 2, probably Demolishers, LRBTs, or dakka Exterminators. 2 is easy to move around or obscure, and especially with plasma sponsons, should be able to annihilate even squads in cover using simultaneous shooting rules.

I guess we could see the occasional squad of 3 since they synergize so very well with the ol' Inquisitor and Mystics for serious 'feth you' anti deep strike defenses.

But yeah, 2 slots dedicated to LR of whatever flavor, and one more for Griffons or something for the seriously artillery-minded. Although the hydra is an absolutely superior light AT gun platform compared to just about anything (and easy to hide too, on that little chimera chassis), I think the cost of the model will keep them as a sort of blue moon encounter.

ph34r wrote:Do you think people will take squads of 3 leman russes? 2 seems like the most it would be sensible to take at once, and I can see it being very common for guard to take 2 squads of 2 tanks, and some sort of support tank, which might or might not be a hydra.

Yeah, I think things will probably move in that direction. A zillion Pie Plates are nice, but not so great against assault armies when they close in. It is also hard to support your objective takers when you've got a chance of whiping them out. The Punisher, as much as I don't like it, would excel at close support, as would the Hydras.

Neil wrote:- I'm having a hard time getting away from suicide CHQ's. 90 points, BS4, 4 Meltaguns, can call Bring it Down on themselves... that just kills a tank dead. I'm not seeing any other use for CHQ's since they're just not durable enough to hinge an orders-based plan around - I'm tending towards Commisar Lord or Primaris Psyker if I don't want a suicide CHQ.

- Russes are expensive! Plasma sponsons add up quickly!

CHQ with a mortar behind terrain is durable enough. Its probably worth it at least for the regroup order on the core squads. Assuming a CHQ can order itself, a 2nd would be great AT, can give orders to objective taker squads that go with it. Though it may be cheaper to just have a PHQ carry the meltas since you probably have to take them anyway.

foil7102 wrote:I am actually leaning towars polonius's point. I think that I will still be taking plasma, but I may be mixing in a few nade launchers as well. Ironically, the nade launcher might show up in a mortar squad. "good lord did I just type that?" I can not belive I am even contimplating that, but you are looking at a cheap squad, that I would not mind moving if I had too, and would be one of my, front of the unit, speedbump squads. (before you say it should be a flamer, i think that they work better in the second line. Flamers in the front squad usually get shot away or assaulted before they can shoot.)

You are not alone

I have been considering taking flamer/mortar (or GL/mortar) squads, along with AC/melta (or AC/plasma).

It will be interesting to see how these different setups play out

There is a lot of food for thought here. I'll admit to some amusement at the plasma overcosted at 15pts but thats because of my perspective from playing Tau so much.

I know that they are completly different but I see the Russes being in the same boat as Crisis suits as far as unit size goes. It seems that teams of 2 are going to be the magic number. Teams of 3 are to many points to dedicate towards a single target and a bit of firepower overkill.

I'll reply to some of the other interesting things that have just been said a bit later, but wanted to comment on one thing before I run off to a late lunch:

Squadrons.

The idea of a Squadron of vehicles isn't new to 40K. Land Speeders, Vypers and Sentinels have been doing it for longer than I can remember and even back in 2nd Ed when Bikes and Jetbikes were classed as vehicles they came in vehicle squadrons. But one thing I've noticed is that people don't make use of squadrons, tending to take squadrons of one model, and this is for a couple of reasons:

1. Movement - Squadrons have to all move as one, making them less flexible.
2. Durability - With shots being spread around its an easy to to damage lots of vehicles very quickly.
3. Shooting - Squadrons have to shoot at the same target.
4. 5th Ed Durability - A new addition to this list, the whole immobilised = death thing. I could be wrong, but this is a serious issue that needs consideration, especially when we're talking about 200 point tanks and not 50 point Sentinels.

Now, since the second 3rd Ed Guard Codex was released, every play has had access to 4 Sentinel Squadrons - one in HQ, three in Fast Attack. Most people I know, and myself included, haven't really ever taken squadrons of three Sentinels, instead choosing to take three squardons of one Sentinel. It makes the most sense - no overlap in damage, can more independant of one another, shoot at different targets, if one gets charged the others aren't bogged down, etc. etc.

People have said that, using the Hydra as an example, there's no choice between it and the Russ because, thanks to the Squadron rule, you can take both without filling up your HS slots.

Taking that into account, my question is this:

Is this really the case?

Let's say you're taking Russes and only Russes. If you're taking three, why would you not take three single Squadrons each with one tank? It makes more sense. Aren't we more likely to end up in a situation where most people take single tank Squadrons because of the inherent (and idiotic) limitations and penalties that are placed on Vehicle Squarons?

Chepaer Sentinels don't make me want to cram more of them in a squad, they just make me happy that I'll be paying less for them. Being able to fit three Russes in a single HS slot doesn't fill me with joy because of the Immobilised = Dead thing and the fact that they have to fire at the same target (I'm already livid by the fact that tanks with multiple crewmen have to fire all their guns at the same target, let alone the idea that three completely separate tanks has to do the same).

So do we really want squadrons?

Other than getting more tanks into the same space we used to only get one tank, how else does this help us? I think the drawbacks are quite steep for this extra gain.

Does anyone know the math to figure out exactly how much more vulnerable a 14 front 13 side armor vehicle is in a squadron. I can see it being a problem if assaulted.

I just would like to know the difference in shooting survivability.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Noble713 wrote:Ok, so a plasma gun mated to an autocannon shoots at AV12 vehicles. Let's compare 5 plasma guns @ 75pts to one Hydra @ 75pts.

OK, I haven't weighed in on the Hydra, but I've got to say that it this is a horrible comparison that ignores the most important consideration:

A Hydra is a Heavy Support choice

That means that Hydras compete with Russes and Basilisks. If you are spending points on non-Scoring Heavies, those points need to go into S8+ AP3+ pie plates. If you're spending them on S7 AP4 shots, that's a complete waste of points until such time as Eldar / Tau Grav Tanks start dominating the skies.

I dunno, spending one heavy slot and 225pts for *12* TL autocannon shots isn't such a bad thing. You can pack more stuff into the other two slots now if you've got the points.

H.B.M.C. wrote:There is no new tank kit.

There are new tank kits, we just won't be seeing them for a little while.

Yeah, and the canny IG general will have to be very careful about shooting the heavy bolters on their sqaudron Russes. Lets just look at the following case. Marine tac squad out in the open "lets just say it is running to contest an objective, whatever" Sgt with fist, ML grunt, plasma grunt, 7 dudes. Ig commander tasks a sqaudron of two russ's at this squad. First tank hits, and drops 6 wounds. The second russ scatters slightly and gets 3 wounds. Now the canny IG commander has two options. He can stop shooting and kill 9 men out of this squad outright. Or he can open open with the heavy bolters. That lets the Marine player pull wound allocation tricks. Lets say the russ's are cheap one heavy bolter russes but they score three wounds
9 ap3 wounds
3 ap4 wounds

commander gets 1 ap4 wound
ML guy gets 1 ap4 wound
plasma gunner gets 1 ap4 wounds
7 grunts eat the 9 ap3 wounds.

You are looking at causing less casualties with more wounds.

BoxANT wrote:

Somnicide wrote:

sourclams wrote:and at ranges of 12" or less almost 1/3 of your plasma gunners die after firing. .

Should still by 1/6 right? Plasma now only overheats on a 1 regardless of number of shots (unless IG has crappier gear).

Your both wrong

At 12" you get two shots, 1/3 chance to overheat and a 2/3 chance to fail your armor save. So about a 2/9 chance to die. Of course if you want to get even more accurate, i am sure a math major could help us out.

Please explain to me why you are overheating 1/3 of the time. Number of shots no longer matters - it is just on a 1 even if you fire 2 times.

ph34r wrote:Do you think people will take squads of 3 leman russes? 2 seems like the most it would be sensible to take at once, and I can see it being very common for guard to take 2 squads of 2 tanks, and some sort of support tank, which might or might not be a hydra.

I don't think that triple Russes makes sense, mostly because of the limitations with multiple direct fire Blasts. Multiple indirect templates is pretty cool, especially as you can choose to direct fire if necessary. I'd suggest solo Russ, a squadron of Russes (Demolishers), and multiple Bassies. Put both squadrons within 12" of a Mystic, and you're good against any Deep Striker...
____

sourclams wrote:I see 2 squads of 2, probably Demolishers, LRBTs, or dakka Exterminators.

Although the hydra is an absolutely superior light AT gun platform compared to just about anything (and easy to hide too, on that little chimera chassis), I think the cost of the model will keep them as a sort of blue moon encounter.

I think 3+1 >> 2+2, as the solo doesn't suffer squadron vulnerability.

Hydras can be converted from bitz or scratchbuilt to bring the cost down.
____

Recklessfable wrote:A zillion Pie Plates are nice, but not so great against assault armies when they close in.

Perhaps take flamer sponsons??
____

Vaktathi wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:A Hydra is a Heavy Support choice

That means that Hydras compete with Russes and Basilisks. If you are spending points on non-Scoring Heavies, those points need to go into S8+ AP3+ pie plates. If you're spending them on S7 AP4 shots, that's a complete waste of points until such time as Eldar / Tau Grav Tanks start dominating the skies.

I dunno, spending one heavy slot and 225pts for *12* TL autocannon shots isn't such a bad thing. You can pack more stuff into the other two slots now if you've got the points.

I'd rather have 2 IF Bassie plates for the same slot.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Other than getting more tanks into the same space we used to only get one tank, how else does this help us? I think the drawbacks are quite steep for this extra gain.

The leveler is how 5th ed deals with multiple blast templates. As someone who has played a Killa Kan horde with Grotzookas, vehicle squadrons and simultaneous shooting let you hit far, far more models than using those guys independently.

In 4th it was practically impossible for even 3 Leman Russes to wipe out a squad of Marines in cover because you suffer from diminishing returns as your target pool shrinks.

In 5th, squadrons of blast templates are absolutely brutal. I'll use the Killa Kanz for my basis of comparison because I've had 10-15 games of experience with them versus MEQs, but a BS3 *small* blast template fired 6 times at a squad of 10 guys has averaged something like 16 wounds from one Kan squadron of 3 kans with 2 shots each. That's what I'd say my *average* is, from 10 games. Sometimes it's way more if the Marines are clumped up further.

2 Leman Russes with plasma sponsons, firing 2 Large and 4 Small blasts, should be able to net 20 or more hits easily, and probably closer to 25. If they were firing independently, one would hit 10 and the other would hit 5, probably fewer since your opponent would take out the most clumped marines first. So the vehicle squadron basically doubles the effectiveness of the second tank to fire and triples the third tank.

A Two LR squadron firing at a squad in cover just about guarantees a dead squad. Two LRs firing independently just about guarantees that 2-3 guys will be left alive.

Immobilization=death is a liability, but unless you're playing Tau/Eldar/Dark Eldar, it's so damn hard to penetrate a 14/13 vehicle from across the table that you're going to run out of guys before the IG player runs out of tanks. The only thing a vehicle squadron (in my experience) has to fear is a multiple melta team sneaking up on them, but honestly, does anybody see IG being unable to screen tanks effectively?

*looks at Sourclams' post*

I 'spose that answers the question about whether the Punisher is a good buy or not.

Eradicator Uber Alles!

I'm really torn on the Eradicator. On the one hand, it's going to be very effective for the reasons I just posted. Since the blast spammer is turret mounted it's going to be a lot easier to obscure them with a sideways chimera or something, and they'll be monstrous against both MEQ and horde.

On the other hand it's more vulnerable to a single weapon destroyed result, and just damn expensive.

LRBT with plasma or Eradicator with... more plasma? Naked?

What to do, what to do....

Vehicle Squadrons are typically not better then single Vehicles, with 3 exceptions I can think of, no need to buy extra armor, because all stunned results become Staken, Squadrons only give up one Kill Point, and template weapons figure out how many models are hit before rolling to wound.

I see this last bit meaning if you had an large enemy squad that was clumping at one point and spread out else where, you can target all you blast weapons on the clumped area and with some luck allow all the blast weapons in the squadron will land covering near maximum models, allowing for a large number of wound rolls, as opposed to a single tank firing and destroying the Clump of infantry before the next tank can fire, limiting the next tanks possible hits, as it now has to fire at the spread out troops or possibly not even firing at that unit as it may no longer have LOS, if causality removal from the previous tank's shooting killed all models in LOS.

I'm a fan of Single Vehicles because if gives me greater Fire Control, however 5th. ed has added three new beneficial effects to consider when thinking of using Squadrons.

It's cheaper than the Executioner right? Plasma Cannons and a Hull HB on an Eradicator seems like the way to go. It's the ignoring cover saves thing that gets it for me. That makes it slightly less effective against MEQs than a Battlecannon (still wounds on a 2+, but they get their save), but it will utterly destroy anything with a 4+ or less. The fact that cover is so important in 5th is also what, I think, makes this new tank so important. I think it's this Codex edition's Hellhound, especially 'cause the Hellhound is no more and the Nerfhound has risen.

*suddenly thoughts of a 4th Armoured Company pop into HBMC's head*

No. Wrong. Evil. Bad. Must not think of more tanks.

Vehicle Squadrons are typically not better then single Vehicles, with 3 exceptions I can think of, no need to buy extra armor, because all stunned results become Staken, Squadrons only give up one Kill Point, and template weapons figure out how many models are hit before rolling to wound.

I would recommend you actually try it out. Go set up some models on the table top in a "typical" encounter formation, and then shoot with 2 individual tanks and 2 squadron tanks. I think you'll be surprised at how much more effective the squadron is.

Another idea I've been kicking around is the "ablative tank". Picture yourself taking a tank squadron of 2 good tanks (pick your flavor), and one naked minimal 150 point tank.

Because almost nothing in the game can land multiple shots that will kill AV14 from long range, you can just keep allocating the hits to the one "ablative" tank.

So if you were facing a 9 Oblit Chaos player with 3 LRs, there's a good chance the Oblits would keep two tanks perma-stunned or worse for the entire game.

However, if you were running a squadron of 3, the first Oblit squad fires, glances once, shakes a tank, you allocate it to the Ablative Tank. The second Oblit squad fires, gets a Weapon Destroyed, and you allocate it to the Ablative Tank. The third Oblit squad fires... you get the picture.

It's a very expensive 1UP sort of deal, but it might have some worth.

@HBMC

Yeah, I agree. That's why I'm kicking the idea pretty hard.

Is the Griffon rumored to re-roll scatter AND ignore cover? If so I will be taking a full squad of those without a doubt. At least barrage ignores cover from intervening models.

The Thought of firing 3 Battle Cannons and 6 Plasma Cannon into a 30 man ork Boyz squad before he can do any casualty removal, makes me feel dirty. In a good way.

The Griffon re-rolls scatter. Colossus (with its AP3) ignores Cover. Now that could be interesting, especially if you can A). Mix arty vehicles in squadrons B). Combine their rules with the multiple barrage rule.

What I mean by that is use the Griffon as the ranging shot (re-roll scatter) and then just scatter the Colossus shots off of the Griffon. I'm not suggessting the Griffon would suddenly ignore cover of the Colossus suddenly gets to re-roll scatter, but the combination - if it does what I think it might do - would be very scary. Very, very scary.

The amazing array of artillery options is very tempting. 9 griffons for 675pts is a lot of anti-any infantry. couple that with fast attack melta-hounds, and a couple decent sized platoons and you've got a decent force going.

Or even worse, couple it with IA:5 heavy mortars, 18 S6 AP4 large blast ordnance weapons for 1080 points that can fire at 12 different targets a turn. A lot of pinning and forced wounds indeed.



What I've been playing with in my head mostly has been heavy mechanized lists. take three platoons of 35 infantry, 3 AC/GL squads each with a platoon command with 3 meltas and a flamer, and mount them all in chimera's. 105 infantry, 12 tanks.

11 heavy weapons ranging from S5 to A7 and 7 special weapons in one FoC slots? Awesome.

Then add 3 melta hellhounds, then Creed with a flamer in his squad and another Chimera, and you've got 16 AV 12 vehicles, 13 Chimera's, 3 melta toting variants, 110 infantry, an amazing HQ, and a buttload of firepower at range. 13 mulitlasers, 13 heavy bolters, 9 autocannons, 4 flamers, 9 Grenade Launchers, 9 meltas, 3 melta cannons, and 3 more either heavy flamers or bolters for the devildog hull mounts.

41 heavy weapons, 22 specials. That's a lot of shooty power with enough anti-infantry to kill just about any infantry unit no matter how good it's saves, and enough meltas and medium-high S weapons to deal with tanks and MC's. And plenty of mobility to boot

Probably not the most super competitive list in the world, but damn would it look intimidating and would be hella fun to play with

H.B.M.C. wrote:The Griffon re-rolls scatter. Colossus (with its AP3) ignores Cover. Now that could be interesting, especially if you can A). Mix arty vehicles in squadrons B). Combine their rules with the multiple barrage rule.

What I mean by that is use the Griffon as the ranging shot (re-roll scatter) and then just scatter the Colossus shots off of the Griffon. I'm not suggessting the Griffon would suddenly ignore cover of the Colossus suddenly gets to re-roll scatter, but the combination - if it does what I think it might do - would be very scary. Very, very scary.

That combination's been banging around on Warseer. We quickly dismissed the Griffilisk as impractical, but the Griffin/Collossus mix might have potential. There's a range band just over two feet wide in which it should work properly.

Somebody noticed a funny thing about the multiple barrage rules. They seem to be written under the assumption that the whole unit would have identical range characteristics. Technically speaking only the ranging shot has to test for range. If you're not worried about eating a rulebook to the face you could try to argue for a 12-48" range on this tactic.

I'm new to IG, so I'll stick with my Bassies. Go 120" range.

You know, tonight I've had a bit of a change of heart.

I say screw it. I'm buying the codex, I don't really care.

I'll have Creed as a counts as uber Commander of my Praetorian army, I'll have Moghul Kamir as a counts as uber Rough Rider sergeant, and I'll have Harker as a counts as uber Vet Sergeant.

I'll have a Psychic Choir. I'll have Techpriests. I'll have big squads of 50 dudes with Commissars.

And I won't care? You know why? This codex is maybe what I wanted all along. Will it be effective? My chances of winning will be like the chances of finding ice cream in hell. And I won't give a rat's ass.

Oh and I'll take a couple Leman Russes for good measure, assuming that I have any points left.

-Vlad

P.S. Is it possible to take Manticores in squadrons? If so, with 9 of them, then that's around 18 Large Blasts a turn that happen to be Str 10. Fun!

Manticores, along with the Deathstrike, are the only vehicles in the book that can't be taken in squadrons. Although I guess the Chimera would fall under that too, but it's not really the same.

Has anyone thought of using sentinels as a tarpit instead of conscripts or ogryns(heh)? They wont run, which is the big advantage over those units, cost about the same (or less), and have heavy weapons. The spearhead can even withstand krak grenades pretty well.

Vaktathi wrote:Manticores, along with the Deathstrike, are the only vehicles in the book that can't be taken in squadrons. Although I guess the Chimera would fall under that too, but it's not really the same.

Hrmm...I suppose that was a balance thing. They're still pretty good though, but just pretty weak in the armor dept. Same with the Deathstrike.

By the way, tested a Deathstrike out. Kept it safe, and when I got a 6" radius, well, can you say "Game Over"?

Of course, the second time it was like the first thing to go.

Was it ever confirmed that any of the psykers get a psychic hood? or do we still have to take one on our friendly DH inquisitor/mystic unit?
Do we still have auspex to shoot at infiltrators?

Gestalt wrote:Has anyone thought of using sentinels as a tarpit instead of conscripts or ogryns(heh)? They wont run, which is the big advantage over those units, cost about the same (or less), and have heavy weapons. The spearhead can even withstand krak grenades pretty well.

If you can get the spearhead into CC against a unit w/out powerfists/MC, then you are looking good.

The trick is, most CC units have powerfists, and all marines have krak grenades (although hitting and glancing on 6s isn't that scary).



In addition, if you are able to get your Sentinel into assault w/ a unit that can't kill (or at least has a hard time) it, you are also coming out ahead.

I'm going to use a spearhead sentinel and part of that decision is its incidental close combat usage. Of course it's better to think of that benefit as an incidental, since it has no realistic chance of winning in assault and against the wrong opponents could easily lose. Its main usage is to be a moderately protected heavy weapon.

So the new Guard creed is:

Tanks shoot, Infantry get close. (and flame/melta/speedbump/tarpit)

or something?
--------
With 3xTL Lascan at 130 and S6 Pies starting at 75, and generally larger units due to kill points optimalization, I wonder what kind of (long range) shooting is still best left to infantry.

The reduction of high strength shooting due to need to counter hoard for most armies means that AV12 overloading should be fairly safe.

Vladsimpaler wrote:By the way, tested a Deathstrike out. Kept it safe, and when I got a 6" radius, well, can you say "Game Over"?

Of course, the second time it was like the first thing to go.

I think Deathstrikes are going to be an all-or-nothing proposition; you either bring three, or you don't bring any.

*mutters* Damned thing shouldn't even be in 40K *grumble* Epic unit... should be in Apoc only *mumble* damned kids *fumble*

Comparisons aside, I reckon the Hydra will be good enough a choice in small games. At 500 points, there is not that much competition for HS slots. Even beyond, I rarely see myself taking more than two Russes or squadrons thereof. Mostly because I hate the model.

God, every time I look at the 60+ Kasrkin, dozen or so Stormtroopers, and 60+ DKoK Grenadiers I've got I want to try out Stormtroopers under the new rules, but then I go over them again and cry. :(

I love the look of GW's stormtroopers, of pretty much all of their incarnations except the old beret ones, but I just can't get over their cost, and it hurts me inside. 3 squads in valks would be almost 900pts gahhhh

Vaktathi wrote:God, every time I look at the 60+ Kasrkin, dozen or so Stormtroopers, and 60+ DKoK Grenadiers I've got I want to try out Stormtroopers under the new rules, but then I go over them again and cry. :(

I love the look of GW's stormtroopers, of pretty much all of their incarnations except the old beret ones, but I just can't get over their cost, and it hurts me inside. 3 squads in valks would be almost 900pts gahhhh

Just makes you wonder what GW are going to do ruleswise to drive sales of plastic (=][=) Stormtroopers for Planetstrike, amirite?

Her Majesty's Buxom Commissar wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:God, every time I look at the 60+ Kasrkin, dozen or so Stormtroopers, and 60+ DKoK Grenadiers I've got I want to try out Stormtroopers under the new rules, but then I go over them again and cry. :(

I love the look of GW's stormtroopers, of pretty much all of their incarnations except the old beret ones, but I just can't get over their cost, and it hurts me inside. 3 squads in valks would be almost 900pts gahhhh

Just makes you wonder what GW are going to do ruleswise to drive sales of plastic (=][=) Stormtroopers for Planetstrike, amirite?

One can hope, but I'm not gonna hold my breath. They haven't managed to make Stormtroopers a competitive unit in a decade.

Nice new Avvy by the way.

For once a great thread for pre-release army!

Vaktathi wrote:Nice new Avvy by the way.

Thx. I didn't really like my original av once people pointed out who it was (I hadn't known - I had just grabbed it off a random thread on female Commissars).

Yesterday I visited my local GW store and got talking about the new dex. The redshirt told me that hotshot lasguns are allowed the extra shot when given the FRFSRF order.

cortez wrote:Yesterday I visited my local GW store and got talking about the new dex. The redshirt told me that hotshot lasguns are allowed the extra shot when given the FRFSRF order.

Sweet. That's what I'm hoping for. "Nice" av for you too by the way!

Vaktathi wrote:God, every time I look at the 60+ Kasrkin, dozen or so Stormtroopers, and 60+ DKoK Grenadiers I've got I want to try out Stormtroopers under the new rules, but then I go over them again and cry.

I get the same feeling from my Kasrikin... 6 full squads... 960 points before special weapons. I can bring seven fething Vendettas for that!!!! God!!!

I'm surprised by how long GW has managed to keep the codex from getting leaked. Still nothing out yet. With the CSM codex by this time the leak had been out for 6 weeks. They must be clamping down.

(Conspiracy Mode)

Or the other ones were leaked on purpose!!!

(/Conspiracy Mode)


Yeah, I know. It's a real drag not being able to get a hold of this thing.

I needs my dex fix! I needs it! C'mon GW, just a taste!

anyways, my horde of stormies are counts as H. Vets/grenadiers in the new book. They will be almost exactly the same as they are now.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Anung - I'm pretty sure this is the longst thread Dakka's ever had aside form any year-long modelling blogs that might still exist. And while we're long since moved from going on about rumours, we are still having a big discussion about a product yet to come out. It's refreshing to be honest, quite different from the usual nonsense.

You forgot WAR!!

Well, then it's the longest thread with actual discussion.

Anung Un Rama wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Anung - I'm pretty sure this is the longst thread Dakka's ever had aside form any year-long modelling blogs that might still exist. And while we're long since moved from going on about rumours, we are still having a big discussion about a product yet to come out. It's refreshing to be honest, quite different from the usual nonsense.

You forgot WAR!!

And that rumored fail thread in the dcm areas.

And speaking of Guard tanks, I was at 4Chan [not looking for an illegal PDF of the Guard Codex] when I came across a Guard thread about tanks.

And the thread was started with a picture of my Guard army (two of the Armoured Companies and my two old Cadian platoons). All in their bare plastic and metal glory... and then another picture of the massive Apoc game with my artillery and super-heavies. So people have started a thread about tanks, and my tanks - Did I just win the Internet?

They're obviously stalking you. Check under your bed, gas your wardrobe, and detonate an EMP missile in your house every night.

So, imagining that we might be off to the next tournament with our shiny new guard lists, what would be the best army list to stitch up the endless progression of a) biker nob and b) dual lash armies that we're bound to face? Is there something to wipe those silly smug grins off their faces.

Is there going to be a third entry on that list - some kind of cheese-filled IG list that finally makes all other armies cower...? (the downside being that those same silly smug people will ditch list a) or list b) and run out to buy list c) - I've seen it happen...it makes you wonder why these people play the game...).


Please note, I'm all for fluffy, character-ful armies and my own preference is for playing balanced games on a friendly basis but in the local tournaments in my area, balance never won anything, and friendly is a word missing from the lexicon. I like my armies to look good, not exploit the limitations of poorly conceived rules.

Apologies for my cynical views, but my original question remains...

H.B.M.C. wrote:And speaking of Guard tanks, I was at 4Chan [not looking for an illegal PDF of the Guard Codex] ...

Seriously dude, someone has got to get ON that! I mean... uh... Someone really needs to... uh...




WANT PDF!!!

Okay, sorry, I'm done now.

Immortal Emperor... I had completely forgotten about the artillery options in the 'dex!

Why do I keep getting visions of myself owning 45 bloody russes and an artillery park? I might as well change my user name to an acronym, get an avatar of a crotchety old Inquisitor, and start yelling at kids to get off my lawn. HBMC and I can hang out on the porch and talk about how it was hot yesterday, and hotter today.

We'd need a third-wheel though, then we could be just like those old guys from Cowboy Beebop.

I was told that 'Black Boxes' ship out to Partnership stores next week. So along about thursday I think I should have the new dex, valkrie, and hopefully some of the sprues for command squad, etc. We'll see. Originally I was told March 21st, so praying it actually gets here next week. I expect most GW stores will have it out the same week, so one way or another we can get an absolute verification of some stuff.

HBMC and Wehrkind...

H.B.M.C. wrote:We'd need a third-wheel though, then we could be just like those old guys from Cowboy Beebop.

Maybe Shummy or John...

"But people forget that if it weren't for us, no one would be able to play 40k on these moons! We painted and painted like there was no tomorrow!"
"You painted, I just slung pie."

I love that show That and Firefly would make a great =][=munda setting.

Ubermosher: The old muppet men who can not be named would also be excellent The fact I can only ever remember one of their names at a time would match my nascent senility quite nicely. (Stadtler and Waldorf is it?)

mikhaila wrote:I was told that 'Black Boxes' ship out to Partnership stores next week. So along about thursday I think I should have the new dex, valkrie, and hopefully some of the sprues for command squad, etc. We'll see. Originally I was told March 21st, so praying it actually gets here next week. I expect most GW stores will have it out the same week, so one way or another we can get an absolute verification of some stuff.

My GW shop said there's is de in THIS week. Just FYI.

@wehrkind

Statler and Waldorf it is! Named for hotels.

Ah... the Hecklers.

Hrm. Random musing that doesn't really matter, but no one seems to have addressed it.

The Hydra is essentially unchanged from it's Imperial Armor/Apocalypse iteration (except for no longer having a minimum range). It's now 75 points.

In Apocalypse this little bastard is 200! points. By comparison, the Thunderbolt (Which also mounts 2 twin-linked Autocannons on an AA mount, AND a twin linked lascannon, AND is a friggin flyer [and I think comes with missiles standard, can't remember]) is ALSO 200 points. Just in case anyone wasn't aware how stupidly overcosted the Apocalypse Hydra is.

Now... if we take the Hydra from our Codex the only thing we're really missing is the "AA-mount" rule. But it can be argued we already have this represented in the 'advanced tracking systems' rule the new Hydra has. But what this boils down to is, we're paying 125 points to AA mount 2 friggin weapons? In IA2 it costs like 20 points to AA mount just about ANY weapon.


I know, I know, it's apocalypse and it doesn't matter. But I've just never been able to justify this stupid thing, even with only using 'rough' points costs.

This has got to be the only case of previously 'apocalypse units' being put into the actual codex. In my mind this raises some interesting questions. (Apocalypse Manticore or Codex Manticore? Which one is better? MIRV or big boom?)

Konrad Carstein wrote:So, imagining that we might be off to the next tournament with our shiny new guard lists, what would be the best army list to stitch up the endless progression of a) biker nob and b) dual lash armies that we're bound to face? Is there something to wipe those silly smug grins off their faces.

If the Psychic Choir works even close to what is rumored with their mass -leadership ability, they will absolutely end Nob Biker lists and shut down Lash armies.

Nob Bikers: Leadership 7(10)(11/fearless with Warboss), shoot 9 lascannons at them, kill 3 making them leadership 7(8/not fearless), hit them with a psychic choir to drop them to Ld2, watch a 750+ point ork unit run off the table.

Lash Chaos DP/Sorc: Leadership 10, drop them to Ld2-4, shoot them with 2-3 Russ templates, if the Sorc isn't in a fearless unit, he runs off the table turn 1. Daemon Prince dies to 9 lascannons, so you don't even need to use the Choir.

Vaktathi wrote:
I'm also infamous for rolling 1's.

That will come in handy for all your GL's I suppose.

sourclams wrote:
Scenario 3 Sniper 3 Plasma 3 GLKrak 3 Autocannon 2 Plasma Cannons (assuming 4 hits on direct hit)
Marines in open 0.42 ____ 1.26 ____ 0.42 ____ 0.84 ____2.22
...

I do not understand your math. Three autocannon statistically yield 0.83 unsaved wounds for example. Do you assume four hits for both PC combined or four hits per cannon? The PG has roughly BS 3 (44.something chance to hit), so 2 shots = 1 hit = 2 models covered = 1.7 dead. This is on the generous side for hitting and therefore only a little better than the PG in terms of raw killing power. It cannot shoot at three different targets though, and can be taken out for a turn with a single shot. Also, the PG is much better when it rapid fires (2.5 vs. 1.7) and much worse >24" (0 vs. 1.7). Since the need to take out a threat at <12" is much more pressing than the need to take out MEQ's far away I think this speaks in favour of the PG.

I am looking forward to making a really wierd Psychic Inquisition army with this codex.

Primaris Psyker
Inq Lord
Psychic Choir in Chimera
Callidus Assassin
Daemon Hosts
Stuff

Maybe not the assassin, and more Choirs instead. Still, a Str8 AP1 template vs a unit with Ld2 is a good time Daemonhosts popping Terrify to make everything within 12" pinned. Stuff to remove 25% casualties for impossible tests.
Should be fun, if silly, and even better in Apocalypse :-P

Side note: I am very happy that the name I assigned the psykers caught on. Psychic Choir is so much cooler than "psyker battle squad" or whatever.

sourclams wrote:

Konrad Carstein wrote:So, imagining that we might be off to the next tournament with our shiny new guard lists, what would be the best army list to stitch up the endless progression of a) biker nob and b) dual lash armies that we're bound to face? Is there something to wipe those silly smug grins off their faces.

If the Psychic Choir works even close to what is rumored with their mass -leadership ability, they will absolutely end Nob Biker lists and shut down Lash armies.

Nob Bikers: Leadership 7(10)(11/fearless with Warboss), shoot 9 lascannons at them, kill 3 making them leadership 7(8/not fearless), hit them with a psychic choir to drop them to Ld2, watch a 750+ point ork unit run off the table.

Lash Chaos DP/Sorc: Leadership 10, drop them to Ld2-4, shoot them with 2-3 Russ templates, if the Sorc isn't in a fearless unit, he runs off the table turn 1. Daemon Prince dies to 9 lascannons, so you don't even need to use the Choir.

The choir is an elite choice, yes? i.e. you could have 3 choirs? (i'm not sure why, but it could be an insane thing to try).

Again, this is based on the rumors so there could be a big rotten easter egg in the 'dex when we finally get it, but yes, Elite choice and you could have 3, but I don't see any real reason to take more than 2 and DH Inq+Mystics. Keep in mind that this only costs about 192 points...

Neil wrote:
- I'm having a hard time getting away from suicide CHQ's. 90 points, BS4, 4 Meltaguns, can call Bring it Down on themselves... that just kills a tank dead. I'm not seeing any other use for CHQ's since they're just not durable enough to hinge an orders-based plan around - I'm tending towards Commisar Lord or Primaris Psyker if I don't want a suicide CHQ.

I *think* they could be quite resilient either in a Chimera w/ Camonet or with camo cloaks (include a medic to taste).

- I think Flamer/Autocannon is the best Line Squad equipment. Whilst Snipers looked cute at first, there's really nowhere else to put Flamers into the list.

Multiple flamers in PHQ's are a good investment in my book. Cheap and cheerful and quite good as reserve units against Orks.

H.B.M.C. wrote:And speaking of Guard tanks, I was at 4Chan [not looking for an illegal PDF of the Guard Codex] when I came across a Guard thread about tanks.

And the thread was started with a picture of my Guard army (two of the Armoured Companies and my two old Cadian platoons). All in their bare plastic and metal glory... and then another picture of the massive Apoc game with my artillery and super-heavies. So people have started a thread about tanks, and my tanks - Did I just win the Internet?

I've heard the same info from our local store out here in Colorado!

sourclams wrote:If the Psychic Choir works even close to what is rumored with their mass -leadership ability, they will absolutely end Nob Biker lists and shut down Lash armies.

I keep seeing this, does the -LD affect all units in 24" or is it a targeted psychic power with a 24" range? None of the summaries I find have anything plural in the description of this power. Can anyone link/quote me something to clear this up?

sourclams wrote:Again, this is based on the rumors so there could be a big rotten easter egg in the 'dex when we finally get it, but yes, Elite choice and you could have 3, but I don't see any real reason to take more than 2 and DH Inq+Mystics. Keep in mind that this only costs about 192 points...

Going down the multiple choir route will of course seriously restrict other elites, although with Veterans moving to Troops and Stormies being so expensive, it might not be such a problem.

And its going to be pretty soon when opponents figure out the choir has to be the #1 priority to kill.

Might we end up with standoffs - "I won't take my Nob bikers if you don't take your choir..."

We all know that any army who's success is riding on a bunch of t2 models, has a lot going for it.

foil7102 wrote:We all know that any army who's success is riding on a bunch of t2 models, has a lot going for it.

Which is why you put them in a Chimera!

Yes they can't buy one, but with transports these days you can put the Psykers into it anyway, providing that the original squad is out.

Plus the army's success doesn't necessarily ride on them, it's just a fun combo to use.

P.S. Did anyone notice how freaking expensive shipping is for the Guard codex? The codex itself is $25, but with shipping it's like $35!

Might we end up with standoffs - "I won't take my Nob bikers if you don't take your choir..."

Haha, good one. No, I think it'll instigate a significant metagame shift if we start seeing IG/Choir/Mystics with frequency; the "weaker" half of the equation (Lash, Nob Bikers) will be forced out, and the Psychic Choir will dominate until people stop fighting them with elite units vulnerable to leadership-based attacks.

5th ed already has begun to shift the game significantly towards mechanised or quasi-mechanised lists, this should simply be a catalyzing element that forces the shift to occur more quickly or in greater intensity. Footslogging units, fearless or otherwise, are going to be very vulnerable to blasts with multiple squadrons throwing out 3-5 wounds per gun. Non-fearless units that don't die outright will be forced to constantly fall back, and probably just run right off the table. It's going to be imperative to defend your troops against long range fire.

Orks will go towards Battlewagon lists, Chaos will tend toward Rhino Rush, and Daemons are just smoke on the water as far as IG are concerned. No Daemon army can afford to not deep strike within 14" of a gunline, and Psychic Choir turns Kairos into a 333 point model that loses one wound and disappears into the Warp after he fails his LD2 test.

Personally I like that this codex is capable of forcing the more "easy" spam lists out of the metagame, but whether guard players actually capitalize on the army's strengths in tourney settings will remain to be seen.

We all know that any army who's success is riding on a bunch of t2 models, has a lot going for it

Completely false. The Choir isn't a lynchpin that holds the whole list together, like a Nob Biker Painboy or a Lash Prince/Sorc or Kairos Fateweaver. The army's success rides on how well your tanks and men protect each other, just like always. The true success of the army is that they have an efficient, synergistic "hot fix" to the EZMoad insta-win lists like Nob Bikers and Lash/Oblit spam Chaos. If IG is a competitive list on its own, and has the ability to break IWIN buttons when necessary, I don't see that as any sort of bad thing.

sourclams wrote:Haha, good one. No, I think it'll instigate a significant metagame shift if we start seeing IG/Choir/Mystics with frequency; the "weaker" half of the equation (Lash, Nob Bikers) will be forced out, and the Psychic Choir will dominate until people stop fighting them with elite units vulnerable to leadership-based attacks.

5th ed already has begun to shift the game significantly towards mechanised or quasi-mechanised lists, this should simply be a catalyzing element that forces the shift to occur more quickly or in greater intensity. Footslogging units, fearless or otherwise, are going to be very vulnerable to blasts with multiple squadrons throwing out 3-5 wounds per gun. Non-fearless units that don't die outright will be forced to constantly fall back, and probably just run right off the table. It's going to be imperative to defend your troops against long range fire.

Orks will go towards Battlewagon lists, Chaos will tend toward Rhino Rush, and Daemons are just smoke on the water as far as IG are concerned. No Daemon army can afford to not deep strike within 14" of a gunline, and Psychic Choir turns Kairos into a 333 point model that loses one wound and disappears into the Warp after he fails his LD2 test.

Personally I like that this codex is capable of forcing the more "easy" spam lists out of the metagame, but whether guard players actually capitalize on the army's strengths in tourney settings will remain to be seen.

And we are forgetting that the upcoming codexes will no doubt lurch further in another direction, ensuring the crazy cycle of imbalance wobbles on.

Either that, or GW will release a new marine codex

foil7102 wrote:We all know that any army who's success is riding on a bunch of t2 models, has a lot going for it.

Why do people keep saying Psykers are Toughness 2? The french summary has them listed as T3 (Albeit S2, big whoop). Did I miss something? Is the french summary wrong?

According to all acounts that I have seen their toughness is infact 3. As you have pointed out though their strenght is 2, no doubt from lifting with their minds all day and not their backs.

yay horrible imbalance.

though i have always stayed away from mech infantry lists. i just dont like them for some reason

Why is everyone calling it an imbalance? It's a re-balance, adjusted to the level of power creep seen in 3 of the last 4 codices.

If you don't want to take the Psychic Choir, you don't have to, and you don't have much to fear from them as an IG player. The EZMOAD players mashing their IWIN buttons are the ones that will suffer from the change!

that really cool new S x AP 1 template hellhound variant (i forget the name) will help take care of those nob biker lists, though i never had much problem with them myself.

sourclams wrote:Why is everyone calling it an imbalance? It's a re-balance, adjusted to the level of power creep seen in 3 of the last 4 codices.

If you don't want to take the Psychic Choir, you don't have to, and you don't have much to fear from them as an IG player. The EZMOAD players mashing their IWIN buttons are the ones that will suffer from the change!

I'm going to be honest here, but I can't wait to use Psychic Choirs against my friend's Ork army. Ahhh...good times.

I may be missing something here, but tank shocks + psychic choir seems extremely nasty.

Two situations, assuming the unit's LD has been reduced by the choir.

1. you drive/fly a fast vehicle behind the tank shocked unit, blocking off their fall back move. Insta-kill. You'll need some terrain as well in all likeliness, but still...
2. Tank shock to make them fall back. Then charge them with rough riders: either they regoup on Ld 2 or 3, or they're destroyed... RRs are fast enough to get into a decent position to pull this one off IMO.

Since you can only do Death or Glory! if you pass a morale test, you should be pretty safe...

Somehow, all the hound variants seem a lot better now . And so do valks/vends of course...

If I recall, it is a lot harder to instakill troops by making them run away now. I might be mistaken, but I think they essentially go towards their long board edge by the shortest method possible, even if that method is going away from the board edge for a little bit to get around something.
Probably a good question for YMDC. I never see tank shock enough for the rules to have stuck in my head.

So now I'm starting to wonder about how my army is gonna be set up. Currently I have been running 2 platoons of 1 hq & 2 infantry with just a plasmagun, and adding a unit of LC teams to the CHQ. I now have enough models for 2 units of LC teams and considered adding 1 unit to each platoon. I know about the 2 wound model thing now, I don't care The rest of my army is tanks + 2 units of stormtroopers.

I'm wondering now if I should change it up. Get rid of the platoons, and then just take all those men as 5-6 units of vets? But then if I do that, I won't be able to have those LC units, but I guess I could add 1 cannon to each unit. However, I took the heavies out of my platoon squads purposely to make them more mobile, I don't want to move and lose that shot.

So what would be the better way to go? 2 small platooons or 6 units of vets? Or 1 platoon & 3-4 units of vets? Add the lascannons to the vets or no? If I do go all vets, is it imperative that I get transports for all of them? just wondering...

"Mortars might be a good choice for an offensive squad"
"I really thing IG psychers are going to be really powerful"
"guard will have increadible mobility"
"las plas is no longer optimal for line squads"
"Guard special characters will be close to manditory"
"grenade launchers might be an effective choice"

Is it just me or does anyone else hear a billion damned souls crying out for heavy coats and ear muffs?

foil7102 wrote:Is it just me or does anyone else hear a billion damned souls crying out for heavy coats and ear muffs?

I assume you're accusing people of being in denial, I take it? If so, it'd be more apt to go out and say it flat out.

foil7102 wrote:We all know that any army who's success is riding on a bunch of t2 models, has a lot going for it.

Am I missing something? I am looking at the French Data Sheet and I see the Psykers as S*2* T3.

foil7102 wrote:"Mortars might be a good choice for an offensive squad"
"I really thing IG psychers are going to be really powerful"
"guard will have increadible mobility"
"las plas is no longer optimal for line squads"
"Guard special characters will be close to manditory"
"grenade launchers might be an effective choice"

Is it just me or does anyone else hear a billion damned souls crying out for heavy coats and ear muffs?

So people should not consider new (potentially) viable options in our new codex?

I have some questions about Weaken Resolve of the Psyker battle squad.

Can anyone confirm the range and if it's heavy or not. And also when you use it and how long does it last.

There is a lot of speculation about its use, but I think that we should know if there is a drawback.

I am actually pretty excited to see what is in the new guard codex; the marine codex despite haivng a few bad units is fantastic. I think they're doing a good job I just hope that the next codex is not a imperial one.

I think foil means valhalans. I know im crying out for them! All hail the Red crusade!

*L* I think you all missed the point, or I really did.

I believe Foil was trying to say "I thought it would be a cold day in hell before we would ever say these things about guard with a straight face!"

Of course, had he properly studied his Dante, he would know Hell is in fact quite chilly in places!

But I know my perception of what IG can do is very different now compared to what it was 1 year ago.

Wehrkind wrote:*L* I think you all missed the point, or I really did.

I believe Foil was trying to say "I thought it would be a cold day in hell before we would ever say these things about guard with a straight face!"

See, that's what I thought. Could be wrong, though.

Harridan wrote:I have some questions about Weaken Resolve of the Psyker battle squad.

Can anyone confirm the range and if it's heavy or not. And also when you use it and how long does it last.

There is a lot of speculation about its use, but I think that we should know if there is a drawback.

Confirmation you say?

Assault 1. Used in the shooting phase.

Seems amazing to me to pin / break stuff.

The only drawback i've noticed is that because it is done in the shooting phase you'll have to do your orders first ( Along with the immediate shooting from the ordered units ). Means any shooting to pin / break units will be basic shots or from vehicles.

Not an amazing drawback but it does limit us somewhat in that we can not TL a unit to pin / break something.

***speculation*** Can't remember the wording for how long it lasts but 'for the rest of this shooting phase' would be a reasonable guess. I doubt it would last until your assault phase. Who in their right minds plans to win a fight with guard?

Well, the leadership test to break due to 25% casualties takes place at the end of each phase, so you could still do 25% damage with the TL squad, then tap their LD down to 2 before the end of the phase.

Actually, that might work better if you are not planning on pinning the enemy (pinning is immediate). You could do all your shooting, then decide which unit you want to try and break, and which unit just got shot enough that it doesn't matter. Less wastefull that way; I could really see myself dropping a marine squads LD down to 2, then getting lots of "luck" and wiping it out with one battlecannon round

That is an absolutely excellent point, Wehrkind. it also makes the Choir a bit more powerful since you can cherrypick which units to Weaken Resolve (i.e., ones you know have taken 25% casualties).

That is pretty excellent idea and good tactic.

Does anyone know what the primaris psyker does??

Wehrkind wrote:Well, the leadership test to break due to 25% casualties takes place at the end of each phase, so you could still do 25% damage with the TL squad, then tap their LD down to 2 before the end of the phase.

Actually, that might work better if you are not planning on pinning the enemy (pinning is immediate). You could do all your shooting, then decide which unit you want to try and break, and which unit just got shot enough that it doesn't matter. Less wastefull that way; I could really see myself dropping a marine squads LD down to 2, then getting lots of "luck" and wiping it out with one battlecannon round

Good catch. It really starts to sound like this power might become the Guard standard ala CSM Lash. The psyker squad and the Command Squad will both rate high on the enemy target priority list. Kill the command nexus or eliminate the group breaking my units morale? My personal preference would be to shoot the freak squad with everything until it turns into unrecognizable mass.

Wehrkind wrote:*L* I think you all missed the point, or I really did.

I believe Foil was trying to say "I thought it would be a cold day in hell before we would ever say these things about guard with a straight face!"

Of course, had he properly studied his Dante, he would know Hell is in fact quite chilly in places!

But I know my perception of what IG can do is very different now compared to what it was 1 year ago.

Thank you Sir, exactly!

Wehrkind wrote:Well, the leadership test to break due to 25% casualties takes place at the end of each phase, so you could still do 25% damage with the TL squad, then tap their LD down to 2 before the end of the phase.

Actually, that might work better if you are not planning on pinning the enemy (pinning is immediate). You could do all your shooting, then decide which unit you want to try and break, and which unit just got shot enough that it doesn't matter. Less wastefull that way; I could really see myself dropping a marine squads LD down to 2, then getting lots of "luck" and wiping it out with one battlecannon round

Very good observations

Imagine 3 units of Psykers.

In your shooting phase, you shoot up as many units as possible, and then whoever you cause 25% losses to, you hit them with -8 LD

Three units of Pyskers would effectively create a large bubble (i believe middle said that it was 36"?) around your firebase where any nonFearless unit, that gets close will most likely be running

Wow. Indeed, if all of this is accurate, you will see this becoming IG's "Lash".



PS
On a related note, what would be some good plastic models to use as Pyskers ?

Empire wizards?

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat20002&prodId=prod20018

Ozymandias wrote:Empire wizards?

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat20002&prodId=prod20018

Hmmm... with a little converting (imperialization lol), might work

Is it just the 4 in the box?

I think it's actually just 2 in a box. They have 4 to show you the modeling possibilities.

I've seen quite a few conversions that started here and I have a couple boxes that I'll probably convert to some renegade Psykers (alongside the 2 fantastic FW ones).

BoxANT wrote:PS
On a related note, what would be some good plastic models to use as Pyskers ?

For a while I was thinking Empire Flagellants, but they're a bit too beefy.

If all else fails, the actual santioned psyker models aren't terrible and come in a three-pack.

I think I will be taking a squad or 2 considering all this.

How many points for the choir again?

Won't work against orks, tyranids, and certain chaos builds, due to fearless. Pyschic hoods will also ruin your day. How expensive are the pysker squads gonna be? Is it gonna take alot of points to base your army around this? What's the psykers' leadership for powers. Alot of variables.

60 points for overseer and four psykers, +10 for each additional psyker. 110 points for a full squad, Ld9. Against fearless enemies you can fall back on the SX Apd6 large blast attack.

This sound so great.

Raxmei wrote:60 points for overseer and four psykers, +10 for each additional psyker. 110 points for a full squad, Ld9. Against fearless enemies you can fall back on the SX Apd6 large blast attack.

Fall back on it? I was planning to use it quite often as a nasty blasty...or is the range shorter than 36"? At least 8 psykers (for S8) and a 50% chance of rolling AP3 or less has a certain appeal.

Who said that psykers can't have their own Chimera? I thought only Enginseers (ironically) and Ratlings (deservedly) were forced to walk.

It will work against ork nobz incredibly well the weaken resolve that is.

You cause 3 wounds in a squad of 11; which hopefully you can do drop their leadership to 2 then watch them fall back.

I actually agree with most here the most powerful unit to really come out of the codex that people have seen so far is the Psychic Battle Squad.

Being able to affect leadership like that really breaks several armies.

Sure its not effective against tyranids but look at the orders for Guard against MC etc..

Add the massive amount of templates etc..

Rbb wrote:Won't work against orks, tyranids, and certain chaos builds, due to fearless.

It'll work wonders against Nob Bikers, Lash Chaos, and Fateweaver Daemons.

And that's all it really has to do. Against every other list it can be a fun toy; against these 3 it shuts them down completely.

Raxmei wrote:

BoxANT wrote:PS
On a related note, what would be some good plastic models to use as Pyskers ?

For a while I was thinking Empire Flagellants, but they're a bit too beefy.

If all else fails, the actual santioned psyker models aren't terrible and come in a three-pack.

True, but having 24 pyskers on the table with only 3 models... would look rather bland :(

And I am not that skillful in converting metal models.

Her Majesty's Buxom Commissar wrote:Just makes you wonder what GW are going to do ruleswise to drive sales of plastic (=][=) Stormtroopers for Planetstrike, amirite?

That's easy:

GW will errata the WH & DH Codices to allow Valkyries as Dedicated Transports for =I= Stormies.

Done and done.
____

Vaktathi wrote:I'm surprised by how long GW has managed to keep the codex from getting leaked. Still nothing out yet.

Maybe GW knows that it won't be received favorably.
____

Scottywan82 wrote:WANT PDF!!!

Okay, sorry, I'm done now.

QFT.

Do want!

(and yes, I'm buying the hardcopy)
____

foil7102 wrote:Is it just me or does anyone else hear a billion damned souls crying out for heavy coats and ear muffs?

Valhallans? No.

Greatcoat Guard? Yes.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:I'm surprised by how long GW has managed to keep the codex from getting leaked. Still nothing out yet.

Maybe GW knows that it won't be received favorably.

That blows my mind. Why would GW release something they know wouldn't be well-received?

BoxANT wrote:True, but having 24 pyskers on the table with only 3 models... would look rather bland :(

And I am not that skillful in converting metal models.

True, true. VC zombies? They're certainly weedy enough. Maybe a little too weedy. Wood Elf Eternal Guard?

Raxmei wrote:True, true. VC zombies? They're certainly weedy enough. Maybe a little too weedy. Wood Elf Eternal Guard?

You want weedy? Eldar psykers then.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Raxmei wrote:True, true. VC zombies? They're certainly weedy enough. Maybe a little too weedy. Wood Elf Eternal Guard?

You want weedy? Eldar psykers then.

We're looking for cheap and weedy.

I'm inclined to favor the flagellants with a mix of bits from VC zombies, Empire Militia, and the Cadian Shock Troopers. For staves, I'll raid my Orc and Goblin bits.

Oh man, Eldar POWs chained together with a Commissar-esque Black Ship crew member making them manipulate the Warp for the Emperor... or maybe funnel their juice into an Astropath-esque character, who needs his "batteries" changed once every few...

I think I'll run with this idea. What models would make the most dejected-looking Eldar?

Oh, brilliant, all my Ork sprues has a screaming Eldar head, this will be excellent!

You're welcome Sourclams.

The flagellants would do nicely (I love those for conversions) as well as the empire wizards. Migsula does some wonderful conversions of them as psykers, mystics, men who drop bombs in toilets... pretty much everything.
I do really like the sanctioned psyker models too though, so I might have to mix and match a bit.

The idea of one "serious" psyker feeding off 5-9 lesser psykers as back up batteries is pretty cool too. Put the little guys in like jars, with a little amplifier on each one, and then have the "mentor" fellow have a receiver. Hrm... I was working on Lost and the what now?

shaun03 on Warseer noted another interesting combination involving Psyker Squads and a Culexus Temple Assassin. It's interesting but the range is too short (12") and the assassin reduces the LD of the pyskers which makes Soulstorm and Weaken Resolve less reliable. The assassin also has to remain more than 6" and less than 12" from the psykers. Too gimicky a tactic for me.

I also noticed a difference in the psyker squad's ranges between middle's posts and what Warseer has listed. On the latter, Weaken Resolve is 24" and Soulstorm is 36". Middle reported Weaken Resolve as 36" and, to my knowledge, did not mention the exact range for Soulstorm.

JB wrote:shaun03 on Warseer noted another interesting combination involving Psyker Squads and a Culexus Temple Assassin. It's interesting but the range is too short (12") and the assassin reduces the LD of the pyskers which makes Soulstorm and Weaken Resolve less reliable. The assassin also has to remain more than 6" and less than 12" from the psykers. Too gimicky a tactic for me.

And it's nothing new, either. People used to do it with an all Psyker Last Chancers army, IIRC.

Platuan4th wrote:

JB wrote:shaun03 on Warseer noted another interesting combination involving Psyker Squads and a Culexus Temple Assassin. It's interesting but the range is too short (12") and the assassin reduces the LD of the pyskers which makes Soulstorm and Weaken Resolve less reliable. The assassin also has to remain more than 6" and less than 12" from the psykers. Too gimicky a tactic for me.

And it's nothing new, either. People used to do it with an all Psyker Last Chancers army, IIRC.

I've read about that type of unit mixing but never saw it played. Sanctioned Psyker abilities were too random in the current codex to make them worth using, IMO.

Such a point sink, too. Have to take an Inquisitor Lord to unlock assassins, have to take assassin, have to take a gakload of psykers to make the assassin combo worth it.... net loss, imo.

i noticed something earlier, that i hadn't seen mentioned.
the Valk and Vendetta are supposed to be Skimmers from what middle has reported. in IA1 the Valk is a flyer. does that strike anyone else as odd? and has GW done a "reclass" similar to that before?

alarmingrick wrote:the Valk and Vendetta are supposed to be Skimmers from what middle has reported. in IA1 the Valk is a flyer. does that strike anyone else as odd? and has GW done a "reclass" similar to that before?

I have a feeling the Valk will still be a Flyer in the IA Volume 1 FAQ when the new Guard Codex comes out.

It's just that it's easier for GW to make it a Fast Skimmer(a situation covered by the BGB) in the Guard Codex than it is for GW to put Flyer rules into the Guard Codex and say it's an Addendum to the standard rules and leave Flyers the realm of FW rules and Apocalypse.

CommissarKhaine wrote:I may be missing something here, but tank shocks + psychic choir seems extremely nasty.

Two situations, assuming the unit's LD has been reduced by the choir.

1. you drive/fly a fast vehicle behind the tank shocked unit, blocking off their fall back move. Insta-kill. You'll need some terrain as well in all likeliness, but still...
2. Tank shock to make them fall back. Then charge them with rough riders: either they regoup on Ld 2 or 3, or they're destroyed... RRs are fast enough to get into a decent position to pull this one off IMO.

Since you can only do Death or Glory! if you pass a morale test, you should be pretty safe...

Somehow, all the hound variants seem a lot better now . And so do valks/vends of course...

The falling Back + RR Charge seems terrifying. You could insta-kill any non-fearless unit.

I guess the best set up I can think of for the psykers is ; Full squad 110 ; Chimera 55 Camo Netting 20


So 185 which is not bad considering what you are getting; I dunno if you would want to just go ahead and pay 15 more points on the Chimera though and get some upgrades so you have some shooting.

Sweet christ this thread has 42 thousand views and 1400 posts. What are you all still talking about?!

WE are discussing STUFF IMPORTANT STUFF ABOUT PLASTIC MENNITAURES

What are a bunch of guys huddled around a computer late at night ususally looking at?.........


This dakka forum!

What were you thinking?............

ShumaGorath wrote:Sweet christ this thread has 42 thousand views and 1400 posts. What are you all still talking about?!

Maybe perhaps read some of them. I know, that's a pretty far out concept, but hey you may actually learn something!!!

We're discussing various ways to use various bits of this Codex. It's moved into discussion and tactics now, but as it's still technically rumours, we're still technically discussing rumours, therefore it can still technically stay in here. And grow. And grow and grow and grow. Until all threads are this thread... or we get some more rumours and jump ship to that thread. Or the Codex comes out. Or is leaked. Whichever comes first!

Just a quick question: Can you shoot psychic attack from inside a vehicle? Just think: a -5 Ld from the comfort of a chimera (each guy=one firing point). Could be useful if true.

-A.

AdeptSister wrote:The falling Back + RR Charge seems terrifying. You could insta-kill any non-fearless unit.

Valks OR Rough Riders, tough choice now. Though still I haven't seem confirmation on the range and how many targets are affected by weaken resolve.

Edit: Since it, as far as we know, counts as a shooting attack it should be able to fire from a vehicle. And as 1 ability, only uses 1 fire point. Exact wording may change.

A rant that actually worked wont never happen again

I like the ideas with the psykers, but it seems that we now have an army with units that will have a big bullseye on their back. Command squads and psyker units will be targeted so how do we protect our Creeds and psyker units.

augfubuoy wrote:Just a quick question: Can you shoot psychic attack from inside a vehicle? Just think: a -5 Ld from the comfort of a chimera (each guy=one firing point). Could be useful if true.

-A.

It isn't -1 Ld for every 'firing' psyker, the player chooses one psyker to channel the shot for LOS purposes. So if you can shoot psychic powers from the chimera you could have the whole -9Ld modifier.

Edit: Yes, psychic powers can be used while embarked, shooting power or not.

I dont think it was answered if either psyker unit has a psychic hood, anyone?

Gestalt wrote:I dont think it was answered if either psyker unit has a psychic hood, anyone?

Nothing has been said :(

Hopefully the Primaris an take it, but I would not be surprised if we don't have access to one.

Hmm...135 points for a Chimera and 6 Sanctioned Psykers.

3 of these could be really useful...and kind of evil. 3 Str 6 Ap d6 large blasts a turn, coupled with 9 multilaser and heavy bolter shots for 405 points is actually pretty cheap.

Oh and then add a couple Leman Russes, and some Vets, and you're good to go.

By the way, could you also theoretically get 2 Primaris Psykers, and then put them in Chimeras with the Sanctioned Psykers? And just keep using the Nightshroud ability?

Maybe perhaps read some of them. I know, that's a pretty far out concept, but hey you may actually learn something!!!

No. I am not reading the thousand posts since I left.

Just no.

Teh_K42 wrote:It isn't -1 Ld for every 'firing' psyker, the player chooses one psyker to channel the shot for LOS purposes. So if you can shoot psychic powers from the chimera you could have the whole -9Ld modifier.

I can very easily see this one cropping up in the Guard Codex FAQ (due sometime in 2018), and GW giving the wrong answer.

sourclams wrote:Have to take an Inquisitor Lord to unlock assassins, have to take assassin, have to take a gakload of psykers to make the assassin combo worth it.... net loss, imo.

I dunno about that.

DH Inq. Lord w/ Mystics & Psychic Hood in a Land Raider is pretty much a given, so I think the real question is whether it's worth trying to pull off a combo with sub-par psykers and Culexus.

I think I'd rather just go optimal with Eversor and force break checks the regular way - by simply killing stuff.

If you're going for LD tricks then you should also consider a WH inquisitor instead of a DH one for divine pronouncement.. Choir + pronouncement = -16 to -18 LD :p Not that it matters, its just amusing.. Makes them take a break check immediately so you dont even have to wait till end of shooting phase

of course if you absolutely need DH mystics, could also take WH elite inquisitor, join him to choir and then use pronouncement + choir on any DS unit

ShumaGorath wrote:No. I am not reading the thousand posts since I left.

Just no.

A quick browse of the last one post could have revealed that people are talking about psykers.

ShumaGorath wrote:No. I am not reading the thousand posts since I left.

Just no.

If the thread isn't worth reading then you could do us all a favor and stop posting in it. Less reading for us.


Has anyone got anything good for the special PHQ officers? Alrahem and an astropath seems like it could be fun. Outflanking an entire platoon, chimeras with melta/flamer drivebys, and he has 2 orders. I wonder how outflanking conscripts would work, not sure how a commissar is attached to them.
I'm thinking Dozer/Camo on LR might be worth it, 3+ cover save and you're practically immune to immobilize from terrain. Would it get a 6+ in the open too? That would make it well worth it on the big stuff.

The thing is, the points you spend on dozer and camo could get you a lot more elsewhere. Combine upgrades with LRBT increasing in points, and you could have a standard LRBT cost almost as much as a land raider.

About the advisors, so which are you guys dead set on using?

Personally, I will for sure (usually) use the Fleet Officer. -1 to reserve rolls and making them reroll Outflank, will help a great deal against SM, daemons, ect.

I am on the fence about Master of Ordnance. One one hand, 30pts for a basi round every turn does seem like a great deal. But on the other hand, my CCS will be moving a lot to give orders (voxes... sigh), so I am not certain how many turns he'll get to fire...

Astropath, very cool, but I can't see myself ever bringing one. With IGs decreased access to DS/infiltrate units, I can't see ever having enough units in reserve to take advantage of the rule. :(

I will be using the master of ordnance. He is only 30 points, and he can easily make those 30 points back with even a near miss.
As for fleet officer, I would rather take a 32 point inquisitor and mystics. 2 points more, but instead of slightly slowing their reserves, it lets you kill them whenever they land.
I won't be using reserves so the astropath is out.
I will probably use at least one squad of psykers, they sound cool.

I'm getting all three because it gives me a Ship's Captain and an Astropath for Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader games!

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Teh_K42 wrote:It isn't -1 Ld for every 'firing' psyker, the player chooses one psyker to channel the shot for LOS purposes. So if you can shoot psychic powers from the chimera you could have the whole -9Ld modifier.

I can very easily see this one cropping up in the Guard Codex FAQ (due sometime in 2018), and GW giving the wrong answer.

Now you're just being oddly pessimistic and optimistic at the same time. GW releasing any more FAQs? Yeah right...

ShumaGorath wrote:

Maybe perhaps read some of them. I know, that's a pretty far out concept, but hey you may actually learn something!!!

No. I am not reading the thousand posts since I left.

Just no.

I've read all posts...

AdeptSister wrote:

CommissarKhaine wrote:I may be missing something here, but tank shocks + psychic choir seems extremely nasty.

Two situations, assuming the unit's LD has been reduced by the choir.

1. you drive/fly a fast vehicle behind the tank shocked unit, blocking off their fall back move. Insta-kill. You'll need some terrain as well in all likeliness, but still...
2. Tank shock to make them fall back. Then charge them with rough riders: either they regoup on Ld 2 or 3, or they're destroyed... RRs are fast enough to get into a decent position to pull this one off IMO.

Since you can only do Death or Glory! if you pass a morale test, you should be pretty safe...

Somehow, all the hound variants seem a lot better now . And so do valks/vends of course...

The falling Back + RR Charge seems terrifying. You could insta-kill any non-fearless unit.

Since Middle told us weaken resolve is used in the shooting phase, tank shocking seems out. Assaulting a unit falling back would still work though, provided it's -X LD till the end of the turn (Middle, can you help us out on that one?). That's pretty brutal, all things considered. You could almost call guard cheesy. My Ork opponent will love to hear about this *g*

EDIT:do we know exactly what commissars do. If you can add one to a psychic choir and their rules are still similar to the current ones, he just shoots one the first time they fail the psychic test (at LD 10) AND they pass automatically (cheddar, I know; but fun ). If you're really lucky, he shoots the overseer since he seems to be the unit leader, meaning you retain full efficiency and don't risk loosing d3 to perils of the warp. .

I do expect get a rulebook in the nuts if pulling that off though.

With the Battle squad only one uses the power. The rest determine the strength / Ld drop.

With a Chimera you certainly can have one to use the power to full effect (S9 / Ld-9 ) and still have 4 shoot laspistols if you like.

Weaken resolve does not have a bubble. Not sure where that popped up from.

Weaken resolve is Assault 1 36" range. Target one unit each turn.



There are no psychic hoods in the guard codex. I reckon they are bang on with this one. The guard are about manpower and not loading up on loads of tech. Ld 9 with the battle squad so being offensive and dropping them to Ld 2 before they cast seems more like guard, than waiting until your getting fried / lashed to stop them. ( I'm not saying they didn't used to have them )

How do you deal with an enemy Psyker? Fire for effect!


I can already see a YMDC about Weaken resolve + Nightshroud Vs vehicles coming along. Nightshroud can be used on enemy vehicles who are 'considered to have a Ld of 10' for the purposes of firing back. Weaken resolve is cast on an enemy unit. With a vehicle being a unit there may be an issue brought up with the 'considered to have Ld 10' being dropped.

*** Don't argue it here ***

Just giving you a heads up that a GW rule may or may not work as intended. Can you imagine?

Wait till the books out and you can all read it word for word.

middle wrote:
There are no psychic hoods in the guard codex. I reckon they are bang on with this one. The guard are about manpower and not loading up on loads of tech. Ld 9 with the battle squad so being offensive and dropping them to Ld 2 before they cast seems more like guard, than waiting until your getting fried / lashed to stop them. ( I'm not saying they didn't used to have them )

How do you deal with an enemy Psyker? Fire for effect!

So no Psychic Hoods? A bit of a shame really but I can live with it. I can always fill the gap with an Inquisitors and more dakka and pie. Might as well use the WH/DH- stuff while it still exists.

A-P wrote:Might as well use the WH/DH- stuff while it still exists.

agreed

Kungfuhustler wrote:

A-P wrote:Might as well use the WH/DH- stuff while it still exists.

agreed

I didn't think that WH and DH featured in any future GW plans for a long time, so wouldn't these allies always be available?

Or are GW going to ban IG from allying with them...

Konrad Carstein wrote:

Kungfuhustler wrote:

A-P wrote:Might as well use the WH/DH- stuff while it still exists.

agreed

I didn't think that WH and DH featured in any future GW plans for a long time, so wouldn't these allies always be available?
Or are GW going to ban IG from allying with them...

The Inquisition Ordos currently have ( along with Space Wolves and Dark Eldar ) the oldest books in existence. Consequently their rules and gear need lots of FAQ/Errata/houserules. This fortunately also gives us access to gems like Inquisitor+Mystics, Allies ( GK/SB ) and some great wargear ( old style Force Weapons ).

Until GW finally modernizes DH and WH, they are a great asset for the Guard as allies. But the clear trend in Codex updates has been the a) limiting options, b) keeping armies/races separate ( CSM vs Deamons ) and c) removing "complicated" rules. Therefore it is entirely possible that the Inquisitorial support as we know it will either disappear or mutate to something totally different. Enjoy the support of the Holy Ordos while they still have the means to do so.

I'm still loving the discussion - and stoked about the modeling and gaming opportunities!!

One question though. Valkyrie vs. Vendetta, if you essentially get a Valkyrie with 3 twin linked LasCannons for 30xtra pts, isn't it something a no brainer to just take Vendettas??? (if your army has any decent horde killing tools which most IG armies do.) 30pts for the "upgrade" seems like an absolute steal to me.

migsula wrote:One question though. Valkyrie vs. Vendetta, if you essentially get a Valkyrie with 3 twin linked LasCannons for 30xtra pts, isn't it something a no brainer to just take Vendettas??? (if your army has any decent horde killing tools which most IG armies do.) 30pts for the "upgrade" seems like an absolute steal to me.

That's what you get, and yes, it is idiotic. I expect to see very few out-of-the-box Valkyries in games, if any.

CKO wrote:A rant that actually worked wont never happen again

I like the ideas with the psykers, but it seems that we now have an army with units that will have a big bullseye on their back. Command squads and psyker units will be targeted so how do we protect our Creeds and psyker units.

You have 150 infantry and 9 Lemun Russes for them to hide behind.

migsula wrote:I'm still loving the discussion - and stoked about the modeling and gaming opportunities!!

One question though. Valkyrie vs. Vendetta, if you essentially get a Valkyrie with 3 twin linked LasCannons for 30xtra pts, isn't it something a no brainer to just take Vendettas??? (if your army has any decent horde killing tools which most IG armies do.) 30pts for the "upgrade" seems like an absolute steal to me.

Yes, stuff to kill two-legged ( or 6 in the case of the Nids ) grunts has never been in short supply in the Guard. But you have remember one thing about the Valk/Vendy: it is BIG. We are talking about Baneblade size here. Barring some very favourable terrain/situations you can`t hide the bloody thing anywhere. And something that has 3 twin linked Lascannons wil get a big targeting dot on its windshield.

On another note: agree with the modelling opportunities. I`m currently trying to figure out how to build a Psi Choir ( somebody mentioned Flagellants+bitz? ). Also starting a project to build a full squad of Penal Legionnaires of the "Psychopath/Knife Fighter"- variant. Catachan bodies with generous amounts of suitably spiky and sharp instruments for slicing ( Dark Elf/Dark Eldar knives+ "normal" swords ). It will be a day long remembered when my clone of Creed manages to drive these guys up the enemys throat using the "For Valusia!" command .

I think the Catachans+bits = Penal guys is a pretty obvious one for everyone (except maybe those that play catachans already - not sure what you guys are gonna do...).

I already modded all my Veterans to carry various Orky bits (to suggest that they might once have kicked the backside of some of those vile green guys), so some more modding seems exciting.

3 TL Las on a Valkyrie should be a pretty easy one, even though the Valk is the size of a small country, but I think the choir is the unit that's got the most potential for an all round experience (modelling, painting and in-game). Its kind of got me away from the resignation of having to save up a guzillion pounds to go to FW with so that I can buy my artillery battery.

Ash waste nomads from necomunda look pretty cool. They have a lot of different poses, they're easily convertible, and they're quite orignal. Their hoods and clothing make them look different from all the rest; I guess my three imperial psyker will need a GS treatment though.

Also, Ash waste nomads come with separate hands, allowing you any weapons options you want and opening up some cool modelling options..

CommissarKhaine wrote:Ash waste nomads from necomunda look pretty cool. They have a lot of different poses, they're easily convertible, and they're quite orignal. Their hoods and clothing make them look different from all the rest; I guess my three imperial psyker will need a GS treatment though.

Of course I haven't seen them for sale anywhere in years.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

CommissarKhaine wrote:Ash waste nomads from necomunda look pretty cool. They have a lot of different poses, they're easily convertible, and they're quite orignal. Their hoods and clothing make them look different from all the rest; I guess my three imperial psyker will need a GS treatment though.

Of course I haven't seen them for sale anywhere in years.

*Frantic search of Ebay*

You're right - there's none to be had there.

I ususally just go to the Warstore or some other large online store and browse for stuff. There are a lot of nice off brand models that would pass for psykers and the like.
I just really want to find some people in the fetal position to go in little jars now... I am digging that idea

Wehrkind wrote:I ususally just go to the Warstore or some other large online store and browse for stuff. There are a lot of nice off brand models that would pass for psykers and the like.
I just really want to find some people in the fetal position to go in little jars now... I am digging that idea

Gideon Ravenor in a squad

Military-Governor wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Maybe perhaps read some of them. I know, that's a pretty far out concept, but hey you may actually learn something!!!

No. I am not reading the thousand posts since I left.

Just no.

I've read all posts...

You are mighty!

Well, when you play IG, having the first good news about your army in 5 years is a pretty big deal. I've read everything, drinking it down like a golden elixer of knowledge. And flaming. But more knowledge than flaming.

Konrad Carstein wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

CommissarKhaine wrote:Ash waste nomads from necomunda look pretty cool. They have a lot of different poses, they're easily convertible, and they're quite orignal. Their hoods and clothing make them look different from all the rest; I guess my three imperial psyker will need a GS treatment though.

Of course I haven't seen them for sale anywhere in years.

*Frantic search of Ebay*

You're right - there's none to be had there.

I still have twelve of the little blighters ; by converting up 4 more I'll have two squads with eight psykers. Should be fun.

CommissarKhaine wrote:
I still have twelve of the little blighters ; by converting up 4 more I'll have two squads with eight psykers. Should be fun.

Two squads of eight? Emperor have mercy on your enemies... and people wonder why psykers are hated and feared . If confronted with that kind of abomination, the only recourse is to call ortillery support from the Imperial Navy. You can never be 100% sure but it is the next best thing .

Wehrkind wrote:
I just really want to find some people in the fetal position to go in little jars now... I am digging that idea

Totally W! Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

I have an idea for legion psykers too

I have a question for any of you enthusiasts that may have snuck a peak at the codex:

If you merge all 5 of your infantry squads into a giant ameba squad, which I assume must move, shoot, and assault as if it were one giant squad, does that mean any orders given to a guy with a vox in that unit apply to all 50 guys? Example: A company commander gives FRFSRF order to a guy in the ameba unit. Do all 35+ lasgun models get an extra shot with that one order, or just the 7 guys that were in the original squad before it merged with the other four?

Since the merge happens while you deploy, I don't see any way for the orders not to apply to the entire blob.

Kujo wrote:I have a question for any of you enthusiasts that may have snuck a peak at the codex:

If you merge all 5 of your infantry squads into a giant ameba squad, which I assume must move, shoot, and assault as if it were one giant squad, does that mean any orders given to a guy with a vox in that unit apply to all 50 guys? Example: A company commander gives FRFSRF order to a guy in the ameba unit. Do all 35+ lasgun models get an extra shot with that one order, or just the 7 guys that were in the original squad before it merged with the other four?

Everything that has been said so far has implied that we will treat the amoeba platoon as one unit. Therefore 1 order would effect the entire squad

Of course, that also means that the entire squad could be killed by one assault! So a commissar is recommended!

Here's another one: Al Rahem's special ability gives flanking to his platoon. Does that include dedicated transports such as chimeras (assuming you can upgrade each infantry squad with a chimera now)?

BoxANT wrote:About the advisors, so which are you guys dead set on using?

Ordnance, no question about it. The marginal cost is low, and just one good pie plate easily earns the points back.

So looking at the pie plate as a sunk cost, the only quesition is whether it is worth the opportunity cost of any of the alternatives. As Guard no longer have massed DS as an option, but gained more Ordnance on the table, I'm not sure modifying IG reserve rolls is valuable at all. I'm thinking to let the small number of DS units stay in Reserve, then go for Objectives later in the game.
____

A-P wrote:Until GW finally modernizes DH and WH, they are a great asset for the Guard as allies.

it is entirely possible that the Inquisitorial support as we know it will either disappear or mutate to something totally different. Enjoy the support of the Holy Ordos while they still have the means to do so.

Exactly. GW has tipped their hand via the way the models are grouped for sales, so (eventually) we will be seeing Codex: Inquisition that combines all of the Inquisitional elements. Most likely, it will have generic greater inductees (SM) and generic lesser inductees (IG), to be playable as a standalone book. Most likely, it will severely limit the amount and armies (IG, possibly Sisters) that can be taken. And, yeah, no doubt it will be revamped in options (adding Valks, for example).

But until then, Inquisitor & Mystics is the way to go.

Kujo wrote:Here's another one: Al Rahem's special ability gives flanking to his platoon. Does that include dedicated transports such as chimeras (assuming you can upgrade each infantry squad with a chimera now)?

Units that have Outflank confer that ability to their dedicated transport as per the BRB p. 94.

So unless Al Rahem's ability has an additional rule that states "units in his platoon can not take dedicated transports", which there has be zero mention of, it looks like an outflanking platoon of mounted guardsmen is an option


He costs 70 points, can give 2 orders at 12" and has an insta kill powerweapon. He'll be interesting to try out! I can imagine that 3 chimeras and 25 guardsmen outflanking could really throw a wrench into someone's plans Of course, you're looking at a ~400 point wrench.

migsula wrote:

Wehrkind wrote:
I just really want to find some people in the fetal position to go in little jars now... I am digging that idea

Totally W! Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

I have an idea for legion psykers too

You could simply convert the basic Cadian Shock Trooper models into the Mentor and Psykers since all of them have flak armor saves (5+). Their basic load of a laspistol and CCW is already included on the sprues though you could raid the new command sprues as well.

I would use a bit of GS and different heads. I think some arm respositioning would also be in order. I may try this out this weekend and post some pictures.

I know this might be a tack folks aren't ready for, but aren't command squads no longer 1+ now? As nifty as advisors are, I'm starting to think that:
No more LD bubbles +
No more re-roll standard +
1 "mandatory" advisor (Ordinance) +
The other advisors not being strictly necessary unles you build for them +
Other decent HQ options +
Platton leaders also having orders
= maybe only taking one HQ and saving the points for all those plasma sponsons, chimeras, etc...

I don't see Mech Guard (or the quasi-tank company) needed the Company Command at all.

It saves a KP

CommissarKhaine wrote:I still have twelve of the little blighters ; by converting up 4 more I'll have two squads with eight psykers. Should be fun.

I used one for my Witch Hunters Penitant...

Recklessfable wrote:I know this might be a tack folks aren't ready for, but aren't command squads no longer 1+ now? As nifty as advisors are, I'm starting to think that:
No more LD bubbles +
No more re-roll standard +
1 "mandatory" advisor (Ordinance) +
The other advisors not being strictly necessary unles you build for them +
Other decent HQ options +
Platton leaders also having orders
= maybe only taking one HQ and saving the points for all those plasma sponsons, chimeras, etc...

I don't see Mech Guard (or the quasi-tank company) needed the Company Command at all.

It saves a KP

1. CCS are our cheapest HQ choice
2. CCS are only 1 KP (just like any other HQ)
3. CCS give orders that PCS do not have access to (reroll enemy cover, reroll misses against MC&vehicles, auto regroup)
4. the CCS standard still gives reroll morale (the PCS standard does not).
5. 50 points for 5 BS4 guardsmen & 2 orders (at 12") is not a bad deal imo.

I think it is cool that the codex gives us more flexibility (non mandatory CCS), but I think CCS are still a great deal.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

BoxANT wrote:About the advisors, so which are you guys dead set on using?

Ordnance, no question about it. The marginal cost is low, and just one good pie plate easily earns the points back.

Earning points back doesn't win you any game per se while the chance for even one good hit is marginal. In addition, they will have to stand still. Dunno, but I'm planning on moving to and fro, shouting orders (the JO ones are extremely overrated).

Concerning the Astropath, you will know when you need him. You can easily build an army with mostly outflankers & DSers.

I'm personally going to include the Fleet Liaison Officer. I don't like enemy outflankers, DSing termis or daemons one bit. The INQ + Mystics is a gimmick. People make it sound as if he would kill whole units all the time but that isn't the case due to its limited range.

BoxANT wrote:
So unless Al Rahem's ability has an additional rule that states "units in his platoon can not take dedicated transports", which there has be zero mention of, it looks like an outflanking platoon of mounted guardsmen is an option


He costs 70 points, can give 2 orders at 12" and has an insta kill powerweapon. He'll be interesting to try out! I can imagine that 3 chimeras and 25 guardsmen outflanking could really throw a wrench into someone's plans Of course, you're looking at a ~400 point wrench.

They're all individual units, right? Wouldn't they appear at different times and in different places?

Recklessfable wrote:
1 "mandatory" advisor (Ordinance)

There is no ordinance advisor.

I don't see Mech Guard (or the quasi-tank company) needed the Company Command at all.

It saves a KP

How?

JB wrote:

migsula wrote:

Wehrkind wrote:
I just really want to find some people in the fetal position to go in little jars now... I am digging that idea

Totally W! Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

I have an idea for legion psykers too

You could simply convert the basic Cadian Shock Trooper models into the Mentor and Psykers since all of them have flak armor saves (5+). Their basic load of a laspistol and CCW is already included on the sprues though you could raid the new command sprues as well.

I would use a bit of GS and different heads. I think some arm respositioning would also be in order. I may try this out this weekend and post some pictures.

We... could... yes... but... Hi, have we met? This is Migsula, he makes tiny gods from dust and wind. I am Wehrkind, I... well don't, but I have been known to do a mean kit bash Nice to meet you

I dunno, maybe after reading the fluff I will go a different route, but as I understand it now, one lead psyker using the others as batteries, it just screams for a crazy looking unit.

Though 8 hooded monks with heads bowed attached by chain/cabling to a lightning rod of a "mentor" whom they use to focus their abilities through would be cool too. Man, there are just so many good ways to go with this unit!

With the Astropath they appear with a 3+ on turn 2 and rerolling table edge gives them an 89% chance to appear on the short edge of their choice (1/3 failure rate * 1/3 failure rate).

I'm not necessarily saying I endorse a fully outflanking Guard army, but their ability to maximize their opportunity while minimizing the enemy's (Officer of the Fleet/ good luck Outflanking) makes the IG far, far more effective at it than a Kor'sorro Khan-esque list.

I do feel that the Astropath and Officer of the Fleet are all but mandatory choices, however. Passive abilities this powerful need be included almost without exception.

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Ordnance, no question about it. The marginal cost is low, and just one good pie plate easily earns the points back.

Earning points back doesn't win you any game per se while the chance for even one good hit is marginal. In addition, they will have to stand still.

The INQ + Mystics is a gimmick. People make it sound as if he would kill whole units all the time but that isn't the case due to its limited range.

True, but NOT earning points back very often loses you the game, and I'm not sure I can envision any scenario in which 2 or 3 pie plates from the sky don't earn back 30 or 80 pts, scatter and all. Given that Guard don't move much anyways, standing still isn't a big deal.

Inq + Mystics will kill whole units if they're positioned properly. I currently field Inq/Mystic in LR within 12" of 3 Demolishers (star pattern). My S10 AP2 Demolisher plates have wiped multiple whole units from the board in a single shot. In the new book I can squadron Russes, so that means I could have the Inq pass the shooting over to a Demolisher squadron to drop 2 or 3 S10 AP2 pie plates on the DS target. 3 S10 AP2 plates *will* wipe out any DS unit. So yeah, it's a gimmick, and a good one that works.

This:

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:I'm personally going to include the Fleet Liaison Officer. I don't like enemy outflankers, DSing termis or daemons one bit.

makes sense.

This:

The INQ + Mystics is a gimmick. People make it sound as if he would kill whole units all the time but that isn't the case due to its limited range.

doesn't make sense. Not really because it's wrong, but because if protecting your gunline is important to you, then you WILL take this unit. The average range of effectiveness for Inq+Mystics is 14 inches, which is precisely what you need to protect yourself from deep striking [multi-] meltas.

The psychological barrier created by your opponent with Deep Striking/Drop Podding [whatevers] knowing that if he uses his units the way that he expended points for them, he'll watch 3/4 of them die on arrival, is invaluable.

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:

BoxANT wrote:
So unless Al Rahem's ability has an additional rule that states "units in his platoon can not take dedicated transports", which there has be zero mention of, it looks like an outflanking platoon of mounted guardsmen is an option


He costs 70 points, can give 2 orders at 12" and has an insta kill powerweapon. He'll be interesting to try out! I can imagine that 3 chimeras and 25 guardsmen outflanking could really throw a wrench into someone's plans Of course, you're looking at a ~400 point wrench.

They're all individual units, right? Wouldn't they appear at different times and in different places?

Well I guess it depends on if they maintain the current Infantry Platoon rule where the entire platoon deploys as a single unit ect ect.

I haven't heard that they are removing it, but then again, I haven't heard if they are keeping it either...

BoxANT wrote:

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:

BoxANT wrote:
So unless Al Rahem's ability has an additional rule that states "units in his platoon can not take dedicated transports", which there has be zero mention of, it looks like an outflanking platoon of mounted guardsmen is an option


He costs 70 points, can give 2 orders at 12" and has an insta kill powerweapon. He'll be interesting to try out! I can imagine that 3 chimeras and 25 guardsmen outflanking could really throw a wrench into someone's plans Of course, you're looking at a ~400 point wrench.

They're all individual units, right? Wouldn't they appear at different times and in different places?

Well I guess it depends on if they maintain the current Infantry Platoon rule where the entire platoon deploys as a single unit ect ect.

I haven't heard that they are removing it, but then again, I haven't heard if they are keeping it either...

Well, in 5th edition, it's not a rule anyway, your whole army deploys at once, so I wouldn't be surprised if deployment as a unit or deployment as a whole choice wasn't even mentioned.