Switch Theme:

Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit  [RSS] 

IG codex @ 2009/04/13 22:00:57


Post by: Gwar!


Chimeras are the business nowadays. With Transports being so safe, its not acceptable to not use them.

I personally see myself using it to transport a sacrificial Melta Squad about.


IG codex @ 2009/04/13 22:19:09


Post by: A-P


Gwar! wrote:Chimeras are the business nowadays. With Transports being so safe, its not acceptable to not use them.

I personally see myself using it to transport a sacrificial Melta Squad about.


Yes. Chimeras are still Armor 12/10/10 but use them and love them. Its not like the Guard has a lot of options ( Valk/Vendy? Baneblade size flyer, good luck finding cover ). putting your HQ inside a Chimera and parking it in cover equipped with a Camo-Net sounds like a good ( if a bit pricey ) tactic.


IG codex @ 2009/04/13 22:39:28


Post by: Gwar!


And lets not forget that Officers can still issue orders from them


IG codex @ 2009/04/13 22:52:29


Post by: Hollismason


Well after looking at the leak ; I'd say there is pretty much no reason to not ever take Creed.

He really is just to good of a character and will become the Eldrad of the Codex.

Priests are not bad when you consider they dont take up force organization and can join squads.

They are a HQ choice though so in KP missions they are a liability.



I still say the most broken lists will be those that Mix Sisters of Battle and Greyknights w/ the lists.

Orders + Faithpoints = broken.


IG codex @ 2009/04/13 23:12:47


Post by: sourclams


I think some of the better lists are taking the barest minimum of infantry for scoring purposes and chucking out cheap tanks for everything else. The only real reason to take infantry is 1. Scoring and 2. You like Lasguns. If we regard infantry as the medium by which heavy weapons are taken, then you should just grab Chimeras attached to your "good units" like Psykers, Vets, and HQ Command squads. It makes the whole orders thing pretty moot.


IG codex @ 2009/04/13 23:27:46


Post by: Shep


Hollismason wrote:Well after looking at the leak ; I'd say there is pretty much no reason to not ever take Creed.


Now that we've all seen the codex. I just don't see how this is true. I gotta break this down again.

Ok 90 points in addition to the 50 for a command squad buys us 2 more orders a turn and a 24" radius to issue those orders.

For 50 points, I can get two more orders a turn, with an additional 5 model unit. Each of my company command squads will have a 12" radius. Between the two of them, I'll have the same order coverage as creed, and it will be spread over two different units. Much safer, and 40 points cheaper to boot.

Ok, Creed is the peanut butter to kell's jelly lets look at him. He has good close combat potential i will grant him that. But as most guard players will tell you, avoiding close combat is a more wise proposition than preparing for it. (not sure if I agree, but in many situations, this is true) So lets look at what he does...

Leadership 10 (or is it 9) for all orders (is it also morale and pinning) to all units within 24".

Cool, so 24" range high leadership orders for creed. Well how about I take two command squads, and I take voxes on my six line squads along with the command squads. That's only 40 points. Leadership 10 passes orders 91% of the time. Re-rolled leadership 8 passes 92% of the time. And the eggs aren't all in one basket. If kell's leadership extender does indeed cover moral and pinning as well, then lets just factor in 2 regimental banners.

so creed 90
command squad number two 50

kell 85
two regimental banners and eight voxes 70

So theres 55 points. Which is enough to cover a brand new chimera for my second command squad.

Creed and Kell are 'cool' and if I played a cadian army, I'd occasionally take them. But they are a far cry from mandatory.


IG codex @ 2009/04/13 23:48:00


Post by: Hollismason


Your kind of leaving out his other orders though.

For 90 points you dont just get " 24 inch range"

A unit any unit gets Scout , this is pretty brutal in itself considering your Leman Russ Demolishers or Squad of Hellhounds now outflank and with an Advisor get plus + to the roll and reroll.

He can give 4 orders a turn. That's pretty awesome.

4 units having Fearless and Furious Charge. Not bad at all.


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 00:09:53


Post by: schrag


If i was gonna take creed id just go hog wild and take nork a med kit and lots of plasma


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 00:10:51


Post by: BoxANT


I also thought Creed was going to be mandatory choice.

But two CCS + Standards = two 24" bubbles with reroll morale, 4 orders, and 10 BS4 models. Not bad at all.

Not that "fluffly", having two CCS... but oh well


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 00:13:37


Post by: Gwar!


schrag wrote:If i was gonna take creed id just go hog wild and take nork a med kit and lots of plasma
Dont forget a chimera


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 00:13:42


Post by: Janthkin


Shep wrote:
Hollismason wrote:Well after looking at the leak ; I'd say there is pretty much no reason to not ever take Creed.


Now that we've all seen the codex. I just don't see how this is true. I gotta break this down again.

Ok 90 points in addition to the 50 for a command squad buys us 2 more orders a turn and a 24" radius to issue those orders.

For 50 points, I can get two more orders a turn, with an additional 5 model unit. Each of my company command squads will have a 12" radius. Between the two of them, I'll have the same order coverage as creed, and it will be spread over two different units. Much safer, and 40 points cheaper to boot.

Ok, Creed is the peanut butter to kell's jelly lets look at him. He has good close combat potential i will grant him that. But as most guard players will tell you, avoiding close combat is a more wise proposition than preparing for it. (not sure if I agree, but in many situations, this is true) So lets look at what he does...

Leadership 10 (or is it 9) for all orders (is it also morale and pinning) to all units within 24".

Cool, so 24" range high leadership orders for creed. Well how about I take two command squads, and I take voxes on my six line squads along with the command squads. That's only 40 points. Leadership 10 passes orders 91% of the time. Re-rolled leadership 8 passes 92% of the time. And the eggs aren't all in one basket. If kell's leadership extender does indeed cover moral and pinning as well, then lets just factor in 2 regimental banners.

so creed 90
command squad number two 50

kell 85
two regimental banners and eight voxes 70

So theres 55 points. Which is enough to cover a brand new chimera for my second command squad.

Creed and Kell are 'cool' and if I played a cadian army, I'd occasionally take them. But they are a far cry from mandatory.

Area of a circle = pi*radius^2.
Creed's leadership bubble: ~12 sq. ft.
Two "normal" officers: ~6 sq. ft.

If you get Creed to midfield, his bubble covers a non-trivial portion of the table, and reaches deep into enemy deployment zones (handy for suicidal Vets).

I haven't taken a position on how mandatory they are (or even how crucial the Orders system is), but let's make sure our comparisons are valid.

*edit: Hmm. I typed "pi*r^2." That "are" was typed as the letter. Anti-textspeak filter for the lose.


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 00:18:31


Post by: Hollismason


The Leman Russ battle tank guy is pretty awesome as well. I mean that is a fantastic upgrade for 50 points. I am unsure of what crack shot exactly does though.


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 00:20:31


Post by: Gwar!


yes the Tank Commander is great. No Chance of giving up a KP like Chronos, and has bonuses when shooting at vehicles/Monstrous Creatures. Oh and BS 4. Heavy 20 BS 4 Tank anyone?


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 00:50:34


Post by: schrag


what do you guys think of marbo? i love everything about him, except his save....but im gonna give him a whirl before i write it off. could be good for a suicide assassination mission.


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 00:52:18


Post by: Gwar!


marbo is pretty useless IMO.

"Oh look I pop up anywhere and fire a demo charge that will most likely kill me wheeeeeeeeeee oh crap I cant assault here comes the pain" before a single squad causes 6 or 7 wounds on him and kills him before he does anything useful. Im not saying the Democharge popup isn't nice, but its too unreliable and just gives away a easy killpoint. might have some use to counter Nob Bikers however, since he can pop up wherever they are.

I'm surprised to see they didn't buff up Shotguns like they did for Marines however. -Shrug-


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 00:56:58


Post by: JB


CommissarKhaine wrote:I've been trying to build a few lists, and chimera seem to make the cut a lot more often now. CCS, psychic choir, melta vets,... all benefit from a nice armourd pillbox. Has anyone else experience this as well, or am I justy blinded by the perceived cheapness of what is still an av 10 to the side tank? I mean, valks are nice, but you van have two chimeras for one vendetta...

I agree but then I've always wanted a lot of mech with supporting LRBTs, Hellhounds, etc.
But I do believe that 5th Edition and the new IG Codex mean...

Welcome to VehicleHammer!

I think we are already compensating via the Age of the Melta and anything else that can crumple vehicles quickly (Nobz with PK for example). But VehicleHammer won't truly be ascendant until they return the capability for SM/CSM to Rhino Rush.

Back on topic: I'm weighing lists with 7-8 Chimeras, 0-1 Hellhound, 2 LRBTs, and 2 Griffons.


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 00:57:24


Post by: jp400


Now if you really want to start a discussion....
Can anyone point out where it says in the codex that you can only take 0-1 Sly Marbo?



IG codex @ 2009/04/14 00:58:39


Post by: Janthkin


Gwar! wrote:yes the Tank Commander is great. No Chance of giving up a KP like Chronos, and has bonuses when shooting at vehicles/Monstrous Creatures. Oh and BS 4. Heavy 20 BS 4 Tank anyone?

Eh - not really that great.

Optimum case: you mount him in the silly Heavy 20 tank, with hull/sponson HBs and a PMHS. 29 S5 shots, 3 S4 shots, all at BS 4: 19.33 S5 hits, 2 S4 hits. Without him, it's a BS 3 tank: 14.5 S5 hits, 1.5 S4 hits. He increases tank accuracy by 25%; he increases cost by a bit more than 25%. Really, the only advantages he offers are reduced KP count (as compared with his weight in more tanks) and/or reduced cost of models.

More likely case: put him in a Vanquisher, if you're actually going to take one - you don't get to roll enough dice for statistically significant results there, and his BS 4 will shape the probability a bit in your favor.

I'm more likely to just buy another Chimera, though.


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 00:58:43


Post by: schrag


well dropping him into cover is a must. he has fleet, so you could still likely get into CC his next turn, the problem is that you need to survive the CC round and NOT kill the otehr squad, because if you destroy the squad you cant hit and run back to cover.


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 01:00:44


Post by: schrag


jp400 wrote:Now if you really want to start a discussion....
Can anyone point out where it says in the codex that you can only take 0-1 Sly Marbo?




i assume

Unit Type:
Infantry (Unique)

Settles that


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 01:01:50


Post by: JB


BoxANT wrote:I also thought Creed was going to be mandatory choice.

But two CCS + Standards = two 24" bubbles with reroll morale, 4 orders, and 10 BS4 models. Not bad at all.

Not that "fluffly", having two CCS... but oh well


...and don't forget that you also get to re-roll Pinning tests!


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 01:03:07


Post by: Gwar!


jp400 wrote:Now if you really want to start a discussion....
Can anyone point out where it says in the codex that you can only take 0-1 Sly Marbo?

The bit where it says Unique, and the bit in the rulebook that says you cannot take more than one Unique Character.

Don't try and be a smartarse.

Also, I have finally twigged why you cannot buy a Commissar for a CCS as some people were pointing out before. It's because you put a LORD Commissar (as your second HQ sadly) in with them. After all, he's a fairly High Ranking officer, It just doesn't seem proper for a run of the mill commissar to make sure he follows procedure now does it. Also game balance (I still cant think of "Balance" and "Imperial Guard" with a straight face any more)


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 01:10:14


Post by: MikeK


About the Griffolossus combo: what happens when the Griffon is the closest vehicle to the target that is over 48" away. Does the whole salvo miss or does the Colossus get to roll to hit?


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 01:11:22


Post by: Gwar!


MikeK wrote:About the Griffolossus combo: what happens when the Griffon is the closest vehicle to the target that is over 48" away. Does the whole salvo miss or does the Colossus get to roll to hit?
It works exactly the same as infantry with different weapons. Each Model in range roll to hit, those out of range automatically miss.


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 01:13:46


Post by: MikeK


Even considering the way the rule states how multiple barrages are to be fired?


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 01:22:52


Post by: Gwar!


In that case, if the first model cannot fire, use the next model as the "closest" model. if it was the case that if the one model cannot fire, none can, that means a single Shaken result can stop the whole squadron from firing. Not to mention that the Multiple barrage rules detail the firing of the same weapon, so In actuality I would say you have to roll for each weapon seperately (like if you had 2 Griffons and a Collosus, you would roll the Griffons as a Multiple Barrage, then work out the hits for the Collosus separately)

And in any case, you can always elect not to fire a specific model, so the next one would be the "closest model" in regards for firing.

And thinking even more about this, I think this might be a "GW BROKE THE RULES AGAIN" moment, as I cannot think of another unit that could have 2 different barrage weapons in the same unit at once (please correct me if I am wrong, it makes me all tingly inside).


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 02:02:39


Post by: Mickhedd


Gwar! wrote:yes the Tank Commander is great. No Chance of giving up a KP like Chronos, and has bonuses when shooting at vehicles/Monstrous Creatures. Oh and BS 4. Heavy 20 BS 4 Tank anyone?


Pask and Punisher. Against the MC its amazing (odds alone means it kills a Demon Prince in one turn). Against vehicles...eh. You'd get his bonus but the nil AP means you take some steep penalties on the damage charts. Pask in a Exterminator...now THAT is a good (and cheaper) combo for both tank and MC hunting.


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 02:10:58


Post by: Gwar!


Aye, in an Exterminator its perfect for Light Vehicle Cracking. Heck if you are reeeeeeeeeeeeeealy desperate he can even take a a crack at AV 14.

But ofc it all comes down to what your gonna do with him.
MC Hunting? Go for a Punisher
Vehicle Sniping? Vanqusher FTW!
Fighting.... um, something that uses both tanks AND MC's (other than Chaos w/Prince I cannot think of anything)? Exterminator all the way baby!


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 02:45:28


Post by: Shep


Janthkin wrote:
Area of a circle = pi*radius^2.
Creed's leadership bubble: ~12 sq. ft.
Two "normal" officers: ~6 sq. ft.

If you get Creed to midfield, his bubble covers a non-trivial portion of the table, and reaches deep into enemy deployment zones (handy for suicidal Vets).

I haven't taken a position on how mandatory they are (or even how crucial the Orders system is), but let's make sure our comparisons are valid.

*edit: Hmm. I typed "pi*r^2." That "are" was typed as the letter. Anti-textspeak filter for the lose.


Fair points... but not really a huge impact.

'Look out sir, argh', Kell's Pfist and 'For the honor of Cadia!' are all things that I didn't directly list in my comparison. The forward reach of creed's bubble is increased. Taking a 50 point unit, turning it into a 225 point unit without adding any notable survivability, then moving it into the middle of the table seems more like an extremely situational moment. I just don't see a chimera with a 200+ point company command squad heading towards an ork horde, or even any shooty army that will then have side armor shots on his chimera.

The unit of vehicles scouting is fairly useful, but then I took another peek at the codex and found that kell's 'listen up maggots' does indeed only apply to orders. So we can drop the two regimental banners for my comparison. That nets me 30 more points to play with.

I'm with you Janth... I think he's cool, and good. I'm not battling against people taking him. I'm just trying to point out that he is FAR from Eldrad status...


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 02:54:18


Post by: Gwar!


The more I think about it the more I realise I was a bit quick off the mark with Creed. He's good, but not that good. You're better off with Vox Casters really.

The only thing going for creed really is he can cover a whopping 1,809.55737 Square Inches while 2 Regular CCS only cover 904.778684 Square Inches. And after all, Creed and Krell means orders are passed on 10 with a reroll, you you are all but guaranteed to make them.

So a tough choice I suppose.


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 03:23:24


Post by: Rangerrob


Gwar! wrote:
And thinking even more about this, I think this might be a "GW BROKE THE RULES AGAIN" moment, as I cannot think of another unit that could have 2 different barrage weapons in the same unit at once (please correct me if I am wrong, it makes me all tingly inside).


You are right to get tingly...

Can see the next additions to my Guard army...A griffon and two Bombar...errr I mean Collosus'es.

Griffon will be called: Spot of Tea
Colossus #1 will be called: One Lump
Colossus #2 will be called: Or Two?




IG codex @ 2009/04/14 03:54:35


Post by: Gwar!


Having just come from the shitstorm that was on Warseer:

EMPERORS BOWELS INFANTRY SERGEANTS CANNOT TAKE LASGUNS ANY MORE!!!!!!!!!!

time to crack out the paints boys, as of May, all your Infantry Sergeants must have Laspistol and CCW. And you lose the lasgun from the heavy weapon team too! So you've gone from 9 Lasguns to 7. Thats 6 Shots (with orders) per squad per turn lost. That's pretty messed up.

not to mention all those people who have Lasgun Sergeants modelled who now have to crack out the clippers lest TFG go all nutty.


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 04:05:58


Post by: Polonius


Gwar! wrote:Having just come from the shitstorm that was on Warseer:

EMPERORS BOWELS INFANTRY SERGEANTS CANNOT TAKE LASGUNS ANY MORE!!!!!!!!!!

time to crack out the paints boys, as of May, all your Infantry Sergeants must have Laspistol and CCW. And you lose the lasgun from the heavy weapon team too! So you've gone from 9 Lasguns to 7. Thats 6 Shots (with orders) per squad per turn lost. That's pretty messed up.

not to mention all those people who have Lasgun Sergeants modelled who now have to crack out the clippers lest TFG go all nutty.


We've been over this. I believe at least one poster informed us helpfully that complaining about that was simply nerdrage.

Seriously though, that's pretty lousy, although to be fair IG have only had the that options since the Black Codex in 1994, so it's hardly a surprise that GW would take it away arbitrarily.


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 04:06:06


Post by: JB


Gwar! wrote:Having just come from the shitstorm that was on Warseer:

EMPERORS BOWELS INFANTRY SERGEANTS CANNOT TAKE LASGUNS ANY MORE!!!!!!!!!!

time to crack out the paints boys, as of May, all your Infantry Sergeants must have Laspistol and CCW. And you lose the lasgun from the heavy weapon team too! So you've gone from 9 Lasguns to 7. Thats 6 Shots (with orders) per squad per turn lost. That's pretty messed up.

not to mention all those people who have Lasgun Sergeants modelled who now have to crack out the clippers lest TFG go all nutty.

Edit: , ninja'd by Polonius. The cumulative effect really does hurt ordinary squads. It bothers me less because I'm using H.Vet. squads, whose sergeants can take a shotgun instead of CCW and laspistol. I don't expect to use a lot of FRFSRF orders. I do expect to use Bring it Down, Fire on My Target, and Get Back in the Fight. I'm also less bothered because I kept all of my CCW/laspistol sergeants on the shelf and simply made new sergeants with lasguns. They finally get a chance to see the light of day again for fun games and Apoc.

I can't help but wonder if Robin Cruddace is a fan of Turn Signals on a Land Raider. This IG Codex is looking a lot like the guard humor in that webcomic. All we need now is a sergeant (Cavendish?) with a WWI British 'dish' helmet, puttees, and a re-release of Praetorian infantrymen.


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 04:06:44


Post by: Raxmei


I was already using pistolero sergeants and heavy weapons lose one lasgun. No big deal tactically but I can understand why a lot of people would be pissed about the modeling.

On a related note, I recently noticed that rough rider sergeants can take plasma pistols but not bolt pistols. And of course I'm glad I abandoned the idea of converting stormbolters.


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 04:58:15


Post by: Rangerrob


Creed, 2nd CCS in a chimera, Astropath
Orgyns in Chimera outflanking thanks to Creed, Stormies in Chimera outflanking
4 Vet squads with a mix of Lascannons, HB, GL, Flamers and Demo packs...forming the line
3 LRBT with LC / HB sponsons.

2000 pts.

Will I win a lot...probably not...but it fits the minis I own now and the theme of the army (all having BS4 execpt the tanks and orgyns), and I'll have a heck of a lot of fun.


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 05:02:32


Post by: Gwar!


Creed PLUS a Second CCS? That's just being Greedy

I would drop the Heavy Bolter Sponsons. I've never seen why people like them. You Can only fire one of them (cause they are not defensive any more) and you already have the lascannon. With the lumbering behemoth rule you can move 6" and still fire off your BC and LC, so the Heavy Bolters are a bit of a waste IMO.


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 05:06:16


Post by: Rangerrob


Gwar! wrote:Creed PLUS a Second CCS? That's just being Greedy

I would drop the Heavy Bolter Sponsons. I've never seen why people like them. You Can only fire one of them (cause they are not defensive any more) and you already have the lascannon. With the lumbering behemoth rule you can move 6" and still fire off your BC and LC, so the Heavy Bolters are a bit of a waste IMO.


Yeah. I agree...but they are already on the models...so I'll take them. 66 models and 3 tanks...think my eldar army fields more at this many points...lol!


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 05:31:26


Post by: MikeK


Are voxes really worth taking?


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 05:38:15


Post by: Gwar!


MikeK wrote:Are voxes really worth taking?
Most Certainly. I would bother getting into math-hammer but I actually cannot remember the % values. Just be sure that rerolling your Poor Ld is very very useful.


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 06:24:08


Post by: sonofruss


Gwar! wrote:Creed PLUS a Second CCS? That's just being Greedy

I would drop the Heavy Bolter Sponsons. I've never seen why people like them. You Can only fire one of them (cause they are not defensive any more) and you already have the lascannon. With the lumbering behemoth rule you can move 6" and still fire off your BC and LC, so the Heavy Bolters are a bit of a waste IMO.

Lumbering behemoth overrules the defensive thing you can move and still shoot the heavy bolters and battle cannon.


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 06:28:31


Post by: Gwar!


sonofruss wrote:
Gwar! wrote:Creed PLUS a Second CCS? That's just being Greedy

I would drop the Heavy Bolter Sponsons. I've never seen why people like them. You Can only fire one of them (cause they are not defensive any more) and you already have the lascannon. With the lumbering behemoth rule you can move 6" and still fire off your BC and LC, so the Heavy Bolters are a bit of a waste IMO.

Lumbering behemoth overrules the defensive thing you can move and still shoot the heavy bolters and battle cannon.
You misunderstand the what I was getting at.

You can Move 6" and Fire the Turret Plus One Main weapon and all Defensive (So either the LasCannon, the Hull Heavy Bolter or a Single Sponson Heavy Bolter).
You cant fire both sponsons as one weapon system

So Why bother taking the Heavy Bolters if you are gonna move and shoot the Battlecanon+Hull Mounted HB or LC, but unable to fire the Sponson heavy bolters


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 06:47:08


Post by: ph34r


It kinda sucks to lose 2 lasguns per squad with the new srg and HW team rules, but at least I can model my sgts as being a bit more distinct/interesting now, because I have to


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 06:48:11


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Gwar's right. The rule is worded quite specifically:

Lumbering Behemoth: A Leman Russ that moved at combat speed or remained stationary can fire its turret weapon in addition to any other weapon it is usually allowed to fire (even if the turret weapon is ordnance!). However, a Leman Russ travelling at crusing speed can only move D6+6" - roll every time it moves at this speed. - Codex: Arbitrary, Page 48

Emphasis mine. You can't move and fire Heavy Bolters normally, and this rule does not allow you to do that.


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 06:49:10


Post by: CplPunishment


With all the cool stuff we'll be getting, I really feel kind of stupid for saying this, but here it goes anyway: Whoever wrote this codex should smack himself for making all sorts of arbitrary weapon limitations!
Sergeants can't take bolters or even lasguns (LASGUNS!) anymore? What's the reasoning behind that brilliant decision? My commander can't take a storm bolter. what is up with that? Seriously, It would have taken ten minutes tops to add a few entries in that would save cumulative days of conversion work for consumers. It's not really a huge deal, but I still find it inconsiderate and annoying. of course, with all this cool stuff they had to find a way to be a jerk somehow.


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 06:52:44


Post by: CplPunishment


I'm also crying about the loss of master crafted plasma pistols. (at least I didn't notice any way to master craft weapons)


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 06:53:43


Post by: Gwar!


CplPunishment wrote:I'm also crying about the loss of master crafted plasma pistols. (at least I didn't notice any way to master craft weapons)
Nope, master crafting is now only for special characters


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 06:55:20


Post by: H.B.M.C.


CplPunishment wrote:What's the reasoning behind that brilliant decision?


I think you'll find it's a combination of things, and none of them are malice-related.

1. Apathy - They don't care and/or it is simply not important to them.
2. Incompetence - They haven't realised that they made the change.
3. By Design - Not malice related, but they designed the rules to fit around the new Command Squad sprue, rather than the other way around, so no Storm Bolter on sprue = no Storm Bolter in CHQ.

Point 2 there is by far the most worrisome to me.


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 06:55:40


Post by: CplPunishment


Do you mean officers exclusively, or are sergeants included?


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 06:58:00


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Sergeants would fall into the "Number 2" category. Chances are Arby assumed that you had to build the Sergeants with LP/CCW because there weren't enough Lasguns on the sprue to do otherwise.


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 06:58:27


Post by: CplPunishment


H.B.M.C. wrote:
CplPunishment wrote:What's the reasoning behind that brilliant decision?


I think you'll find it's a combination of things, and none of them are malice-related.

1. Apathy - They don't care and/or it is simply not important to them/
2. Incompetence - They haven't realised that they made the change.
3. By Design - Not malice related, but they designed the rules to fit around the new Command Squad sprue, rather than the other way around, so no Storm Bolter on sprue = no Storm Bolter in CHQ.

Point 2 there is by far the most worrisome to me.


Number two reminded me of something funny. There is a picture of a catachan wielding a bolter. The words underneath him say "Catachan Sergeant". The rules do not state bolters as an option for sergeants.
So I'm inclined to believe that number two is the case.


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 07:00:51


Post by: CplPunishment


Oh, sorry for the confusion HBMC, but I was asking if only officers were considered special characters. I want to know if sergeants are included as well


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 07:01:03


Post by: Gwar!


I'm thinking that they either fuxxed up big time, or that its a clever way of counterbalancing the "First Rank Fire" order.

Yeeeeeah who honestly thinks its the second one?


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 07:04:20


Post by: CplPunishment


One to two less las shots per squad? Yeah, that really makes up for it! hahaha


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 07:06:07


Post by: Vaktathi


Gwar! wrote:Creed PLUS a Second CCS? That's just being Greedy

I would drop the Heavy Bolter Sponsons. I've never seen why people like them. You Can only fire one of them (cause they are not defensive any more) and you already have the lascannon. With the lumbering behemoth rule you can move 6" and still fire off your BC and LC, so the Heavy Bolters are a bit of a waste IMO.


Firing 3 heavy bolters and the battlecannon while stationary though adds a lot of firepower, and if the main gun goes bye-bye, you've still got an AV14 mobile heavy weapons squad. I'd never, ever take a Leman Russ without sponsons.


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 07:08:00


Post by: CplPunishment


H.B.M.C. wrote:Sergeants would fall into the "Number 2" category. Chances are Arby assumed that you had to build the Sergeants with LP/CCW because there weren't enough Lasguns on the sprue to do otherwise.




I wonder if he's ever touched clippers and plastic glue?


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 07:08:25


Post by: Gwar!


CplPunishment wrote:One to two less las shots per squad? Yeah, that really makes up for it! hahaha
Well actually, you have gone from having 9 Lasguns + Heavy Weapon to having 6 Lasguns, a Las Pistol and a Heavy Weapon. So without orders, thats 5 Shots less per squad. Thats 25 a Platoon, over 3 Platoons thats 75 Shots gone. A Turn. Factor in orders and thats 135 Missing shots A TURN. 135 Lasbolts will feth up anythings day


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 07:14:08


Post by: CplPunishment


Speaking of heavy weapons, what about those of us who do not keep both guardsmen on the same base? (the 90mm base is a nightmare!) Is it legal to have a two wound model represented with two separate bases?


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 07:19:34


Post by: Gwar!


CplPunishment wrote:Speaking of heavy weapons, what about those of us who do not keep both guardsmen on the same base? (the 90mm base is a nightmare!) Is it legal to have a two wound model represented with two separate bases?
No, it's not. You are going to have to either mount them on a single 60mm base (I suggest using Blue Tac or Magnets and having the loader as a removable wound counter) or not use them.

90mm base? WTF! What witchcraft is that!


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 07:24:22


Post by: CplPunishment


oops
meant to say 60mm


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 07:25:52


Post by: CplPunishment


this makes me angry. Where am I supposed to get all of these 60mm bases for my metal heavy weapon teams?
Once more, arbitration rules the day.


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 07:28:15


Post by: Gwar!


CplPunishment wrote:this makes me angry. Where am I supposed to get all of these 60mm bases for my metal heavy weapon teams?
Once more, arbitration rules the day.
GW dont care, really. Just make it out of cardboard if you really have to. Not ideal but it will stop TFG from having at you.

HAVE AT YOU!


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 08:25:06


Post by: Raxmei


CplPunishment wrote:this makes me angry. Where am I supposed to get all of these 60mm bases for my metal heavy weapon teams?
Once more, arbitration rules the day.
Direct sales? A compass and some plasticard?


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 08:38:55


Post by: Mellon


Kujo wrote:So if I empty a chimera and put a culexis in it, then drive that chimera next to the psyker chimera, the choir will use its -Ld power while the culexis can use his 11-shot pistol of sickness out of his chimera's firepoint, right? He's like an anti-MEQ gatling gun.


I know this post was six pages ago, but that serves me right for being offline for two days.
You can't put any of the Assassins into a transport Vehicle, just as they cannot join squads (Daemonhunters p26). So you will just have to move it a bit more carefully, and live with Ld7 on the psykers, unfortunately.

Another Weaken Resolve use: A fleeing unit that is assaulted must make a morale test to regroup, or they are destroyed. Shouldn't be too hard to cause that.


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 11:55:32


Post by: CommissarKhaine


Another Weaken Resolve use: A fleeing unit that is assaulted must make a morale test to regroup, or they are destroyed. Shouldn't be too hard to cause that.


Stated a bunch of pages back, but QFT. Rough riders seem quite appealing all of a sudden. . They're also one of the few units that didn't get nerfed, and you can now offically add meltaguns in a lance squad. They seem prime candidate for Creed's 'add scout to anything' rule; pop up on a flank, waste a tank, charge some support troops (devastators/ broadsides anyone?) withy S5 I5 power weapons. Better then taking Kamir, that's for sure...


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 12:34:03


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


H.B.M.C. wrote:
CplPunishment wrote:What's the reasoning behind that brilliant decision?


I think you'll find it's a combination of things, and none of them are malice-related.

1. Apathy - They don't care and/or it is simply not important to them.
2. Incompetence - They haven't realised that they made the change.
3. By Design - Not malice related, but they designed the rules to fit around the new Command Squad sprue, rather than the other way around, so no Storm Bolter on sprue = no Storm Bolter in CHQ.

Point 2 there is by far the most worrisome to me.


Nah.

It's #4. Arrogance - GW believes the way THEY play is the way everyone should. If they think that heroic characters should not have rifles and should beat people with sticks then that's the way it will be. Never mind that other players might feel differently, never mind that GW itself has said otherwise in the past, that's how they feel this week and that's how it's gonna be.

Till Codex IG v6 comes out in 2013.


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 12:55:34


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Kid_Kyoto wrote:It's #4. Arrogance - GW believes the way THEY play is the way everyone should.


That means that one day when a [certain member of these boards] and GW have a disagreement, we'll finally see what immovable object/irresistible force actually looks like!


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 13:54:32


Post by: JB


CplPunishment wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
CplPunishment wrote:What's the reasoning behind that brilliant decision?


I think you'll find it's a combination of things, and none of them are malice-related.

1. Apathy - They don't care and/or it is simply not important to them/
2. Incompetence - They haven't realised that they made the change.
3. By Design - Not malice related, but they designed the rules to fit around the new Command Squad sprue, rather than the other way around, so no Storm Bolter on sprue = no Storm Bolter in CHQ.

Point 2 there is by far the most worrisome to me.


Number two reminded me of something funny. There is a picture of a catachan wielding a bolter. The words underneath him say "Catachan Sergeant". The rules do not state bolters as an option for sergeants.
So I'm inclined to believe that number two is the case.

I vote for #2. In the May White Dwarf, on page 21 the guy (who shall not be named) that wrote the new IG Codex states that "Another order that will be popular will be 'First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire,' which gives lasgun-armed Guardsmen an extra shot, so a squad of ten with lasguns are rolling 20 dice at targets over 12" away and a massive 30 dice at anything closer!" What's wrong with his statement? Hmmm...seems that the writer of the codex (who also plays IG) forgot that he nerfed the sergeants so there are never 10 lasguns in a 10 man squad. It's his first - and hopefully last - codex but perhaps he'll learn from his errors in this one and do better on the next one he writes (Dark Eldar ).


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 14:02:11


Post by: Biophysic


I also noticed that in the modeling section the Standard Bearer was modeled with a power weapon. I might have missed it, but I'm pretty sure that's not an option for the veterans in the company command squad.


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 14:06:24


Post by: Lord Solar Plexus


Gwar! wrote:Well actually, you have gone from having 9 Lasguns + Heavy Weapon to having 6 Lasguns, a Las Pistol and a Heavy Weapon. So without orders, thats 5 Shots less per squad. Thats 25 a Platoon, over 3 Platoons thats 75 Shots gone. A Turn. Factor in orders and thats 135 Missing shots A TURN. 135 Lasbolts will feth up anythings day


Uh, what? We are going down by 2 shots per squad at 12.1 - 24" without orders:

Old: 10 models -special -loader = 8
New: 9 models -special -HWT -sergeant = 6

That's a difference of 2 shots per squad, or 6-8 per STC platoon, and perhaps ~21 shots over three platoons per turn. Of course this doesn't change the fact that it was a ridiculous decision.


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 14:32:19


Post by: Rangerrob


CplPunishment wrote:this makes me angry. Where am I supposed to get all of these 60mm bases for my metal heavy weapon teams?
Once more, arbitration rules the day.


I got lucky and landed a 15 pack at my LGS for $5. Currently just mounting the weapons on them with recessed areas for the metal minis to go in.
Like mini display trays. Raised areas for the las cannons and a place for the two crew to slide in and out. Easy way to track wounds too.

I'll post some pics to my blog later today hopefully.


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 15:21:50


Post by: tomguycot


This has maybe been done to death but I thought I'd put in my ten cents on Creed and Kell (and particularly Creed).

My opinion on the matter is that he is far from mandatory. For 90 points (I think, don't have the book in front of me) you are essentially getting a 24" command radius and an extra 2 orders for a command squad plus a couple of other goodies.

Frankly I don't think that paying 90 points for some extra orders is even in the ball park of being competitively priced. Let me break down why I think that is the case.

Realisticly I think that there are about two different core competitive builds for IG. The first is a largely mechanized force with guys in Chimeras (or possibly Valkyries/Vendettas). In either case this army is largely unable to benefit from orders and certainly not worth sinking an extra 90 points into them that doesn't get you any extra tanks or guns in return. Yes, your command HQ will ocassionaly tell squads that were pinned after their vehicle was destroyed to get back into the fight or use bring it down on its own melta guns but in both of these cases the normal two orders per turn should suffice. I think this will be the most popular build (and it is what I am working on) and it is a real shame that orders interact so poorly with transports.

The second core build that I can see people building around is the blob platoon. This build will be able to get some use out of Creed but frankly I think you'd be much better off just buying a second command squad (for 40 points less) and then using those points that you saved for voxes to make your orders more reliable (probably cheaper than buying Kell too) and from there either regimental standards or comissars to keep the blobs in place. The 24" range here should be redundant as well since all you'll have to do is position each of your command squads to where they are within 12" of at least one model from a couple of differnt blobs. You also don't have all of your eggs in one basket here and it will be much harder for your opponent to take out your command structure.

Now I'm not saying you could never get any benefit from Creed, particularly, in the secondc configuration, but except for the very largest games with lots of platoons spread over a great distance I think that there are better more efficient ways to get the extra orders and command radius. The free scout move is nice but once again I am having trouble seeing how it would be worth tacking an extra 90 points onto one of your command squads.


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 15:54:35


Post by: Necros


So what's the best way to go for company command? I always did bare bones before because I just wanted them for the LD. But now there's a lot of nice sounding toys and you can easily get the squad over 150 pts, the one I was planning was 180 with a medic, ordinance and 2 bodyguards.

My first plan was to have a platoon with 2 lascannon squads, and have my HQ nearby along with a comissar lord so that I could give my lascannons bring it down and have them count as twin linked, always rolling off the Commissar's LD 10 bubble. I would probably leave them behind and the rest of the platoon would go about their bidness. I also wanted to add some vets in chimeras so they can go out capture objectives, but things are getting real pricey real quick. I always do 2000 pt games, but still.

So whats a better way to go? cheapy HQ or price elite killing machine HQ?


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 16:08:19


Post by: Gwar!


H.B.M.C. wrote:
Kid_Kyoto wrote:It's #4. Arrogance - GW believes the way THEY play is the way everyone should.


That means that one day when a [certain member of these boards] and GW have a disagreement, we'll finally see what immovable object/irresistible force actually looks like!
Are my ears burning, or is it really a Stalagmite in my pocket?

As for Cheap HQ vs Uber HQ, I say go for the 2 Cheap HQ's. Extra Redundancy and harder to kill tbh. Just remember to take Voxes with everything


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 16:21:32


Post by: Necros


yeah I do have all voxes, always modeled them that way for looks anyway.

I guess 2 cheapy HQ squads could work. But then, do we still get a LD bubble for our officers? Maybe I missed that part. The only reason I was going to take the commissar lord other than the cool model is so he can give his LD 10 to HW squads, but if they can use the company commander's LD also, then I'd just use that and skip the commissar. +1 LD isn't worth 70 pts to me.


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 16:30:21


Post by: Gwar!


No you cannot use the Ld of your officer anymore, but you have a Vet Sarge in each squad now, which mitigates it somewhat.

The voxes let you reroll the test for Orders, and there's no limits to commissars now, so you can buy one for each squad if you so wish, or go the sneaky route and buy 4 Squads with 2 Commissars and meld them together for Delicious 20 man LD 9 Stubborn Squads with a Handy Reroll should you fail that important morale check.


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 16:51:33


Post by: Necros


Well the whole thing is I wanted better LD for the heavy weapon squads not the regular infantry. Since the HW squads don't have sergeants and I don't think I can add a regular comissar to a HW squad, it looked like the only way to do that was with a Commissar lord's LD bubble


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 17:09:51


Post by: ph34r


Necros wrote:Well the whole thing is I wanted better LD for the heavy weapon squads not the regular infantry. Since the HW squads don't have sergeants and I don't think I can add a regular comissar to a HW squad, it looked like the only way to do that was with a Commissar lord's LD bubble

You could always take a canoness with a book, that costs 20 points less than a commissar lord while having 3+ save over 5+, the ability to always use the unmodified ld 10, and gain 1 more initiative and better weapons options and faith powers.


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 17:09:53


Post by: Gwar!


Yeah sadly Heavy Weapons teams only have LD7 and cannot have a vox either. Best thing to do is use Colour Seargent Krell to have the tests done on the officers LD and not the squads.


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 17:40:01


Post by: Necros


that could work but then Krell is 85 pts but the comissar lord is 70, and I dunno if I'd have much else within the 12" order radlus. I was planning to keep the CCS and 2 LC squads back hiding somewhere, but all the other units running around. But then, for the 200 pts I had originally planned for 1 full HQ and a lord, I guess I could do krell in a bare bones CCS (does he replace a vet or get added on?) and then have a 2nd CCS moving around with the other troops.


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 17:42:29


Post by: Ciaphas-Cain


Gwar! wrote:Yeah sadly Heavy Weapons teams only have LD7 and cannot have a vox either. Best thing to do is use Colour Seargent Krell to have the tests done on the officers LD and not the squads.


That seems like the only reason to take kell in my eyes, and if you're doing that might as well buy creed, LD10 tests are nice, especially if you've got a reroll around (in other squads of course).

I like the name of the special rule though "Listen up you maggots" Hurrah for fluff and rules combined!!! ...for once in this codex........

Edit: Dang beaten to the punch.....


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 17:44:58


Post by: Dave47


ph34r wrote:You could always take a canoness with a book, that costs 20 points less than a commissar lord while having 3+ save over 5+, the ability to always use the unmodified ld 10, and gain 1 more initiative and better weapons options and faith powers.

There's no doubt that the Book Cannoness is better than the Commissar Lord. But I believe that both units abilities increase leadership for morale and pinning tests, and not leadership tests.

The test to understand orders is a leadership test, but it is neither a morale test nor a pinning test.


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 17:47:30


Post by: Ciaphas-Cain


Another case of 3rd edition books+5th edition books (and rules)= Odd cases


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 17:47:54


Post by: Gwar!


Dave is correct. Morale and Pinning tests are a type of Leadership test, but a very specific type.


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 18:24:21


Post by: Shep


Dave47 wrote:
ph34r wrote:You could always take a canoness with a book, that costs 20 points less than a commissar lord while having 3+ save over 5+, the ability to always use the unmodified ld 10, and gain 1 more initiative and better weapons options and faith powers.

There's no doubt that the Book Cannoness is better than the Commissar Lord. But I believe that both units abilities increase leadership for morale and pinning tests, and not leadership tests.

The test to understand orders is a leadership test, but it is neither a morale test nor a pinning test.


Nice catch Dave. Canonss with book is morale and pinning...

Commissar lord is very specific, his rule says...

"...uses his leadership for morale tests, pinning tests, and leadership tests to receive orders."

Looks like comlord wins


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 18:25:56


Post by: Gwar!


Why not go for an epic combo of Creed, krell, Comilord and Chimera?


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 18:28:59


Post by: Ciaphas-Cain


Cause thats way too many points....

And imagine the number of 5 point meat-shields ahem... Guardsmen... you can get for that!


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 18:56:06


Post by: Gwar!


Ciaphas-Cain wrote:Cause thats way too many points....

And imagine the number of 5 point meat-shields ahem... Guardsmen... you can get for that!
Better yet, Imagine the amount of 4 point MeatWhiteshields you can get for that


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 20:47:14


Post by: schrag


Uber HQ of too much squishy

Creed +90
Kell +85
Nork +110
Astropath +30
MoO +30
OotF +30
Medi-Pak Vet +30
2x plasma vets +30
Krak +5
Carapace +20
Camo +20

Commissar Yarrick +185

Ministorium Priest +45
eviscerator +15

by my count thats
creed
kell
nork counts as 2 people
3 vets
3 advisors
yarrick
priest
12 people.....which all fit into....

Chimera +55
extra armor +15
dozer blade +10

total pts: 805

everyone has FNP
20 wounds int he squad

i wanna play it just for fun one time.


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 20:49:59


Post by: Gwar!


Duuuuuude I want that squad LOL. If only to hit it with my own demolisher shell by accident


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 20:50:27


Post by: schrag


hmmm can creed give scout to himself?

he could outflank with the chimera


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 20:58:34


Post by: A-P


schrag wrote:Uber HQ of too much squishy
..............
total pts: 805

everyone has FNP
20 wounds int he squad

i wanna play it just for fun one time.


That is just..... words fail me. That costs more points than a Warhound Titan in Apocalypse .


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 21:07:12


Post by: Gwar!


schrag wrote:hmmm can creed give scout to himself?

he could outflank with the chimera
Yes he can give scout to his unit, but he wouldn't give it to any IC's who join the unit afterwards (so no Commissars etc)

A-P wrote:
schrag wrote:Uber HQ of too much squishy
..............
total pts: 805

everyone has FNP
20 wounds int he squad

i wanna play it just for fun one time.


That is just..... words fail me. That costs more points than a Warhound Titan in Apocalypse .

Naw, a Warhound with the cheapest weapons works out to 810 Points. So Close, but no Cigar!


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 21:19:13


Post by: Hollismason


Does crackshot ignore cover saves?


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 21:20:49


Post by: Gwar!


Pask's Crack Shot is nothing like the Eldar one.

It doesn't BTW


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 21:22:16


Post by: A-P


Gwar! wrote:Naw, a Warhound with the cheapest weapons works out to 810 Points. So Close, but no Cigar!


( Gets Apocalypse rulebook from shelf and checks ) Nah, page 125: Warhound Scout Titan 750 points with weapons. Were you perhaps thinking about some Imperial Armour version?


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 21:24:27


Post by: The Dreadnote


Yeah, before Apoc warhounds had to pay for their guns.


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 21:27:37


Post by: schrag


hmm wonder what happens with both nork and kell...do they fight over who jumps in front of creed?


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 21:27:47


Post by: Gwar!


El facepalmo. Yeah I'm thinking the IA one, not the Apoc One.
schrag wrote:hmm wonder what happens with both nork and kell...do they fight over who jumps in front of creed?
I would assume the Controling player chooses who takes the wound, same as if they had 2 Bodyguards


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 21:36:17


Post by: A-P


Gwar! wrote:El facepalmo. Yeah I'm thinking the IA one, not the Apoc One.


Thought so. No worries, happens to the best of us .


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 22:28:09


Post by: Ivan


If you're looking for ways to make your heavy and special weapon squads take orders more reliably, wouldnt Kell be more of an auto-include than Creed?


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 22:36:11


Post by: The Angry Commissar


id say take both. slightly point heavy but ld 10 on all order checks sounds like a solid plan to me.


IG codex @ 2009/04/14 23:57:09


Post by: Kasrkinlegion


People are forgetting advisors. I think anyone who doesn't take Master of Ordnance is nuts. For 30 points, you get a S9 AP3 Large Ordnance Blast per turn that he can fire from a chimera. And you can have two of them in the army.

Command Squad: 50
Master of Ordnance:30
Chimera: 55

This basically turns into a 125 point Leman Russ that can give orders.


IG codex @ 2009/04/15 00:22:51


Post by: Rangerrob


Kasrkinlegion wrote:People are forgetting advisors. I think anyone who doesn't take Master of Ordnance is nuts. For 30 points, you get a S9 AP3 Large Ordnance Blast per turn that he can fire from a chimera. And you can have two of them in the army.


I was right there with yah...until I heard that the shot ALWAYS deviates at least 2d6...more if you are out of LOS.



IG codex @ 2009/04/15 00:28:22


Post by: Kasrkinlegion


For 30 points this is so worth taking for horde armies alone. When some guy has 20 orks spread out across 20 inches of space, you can't miss.


IG codex @ 2009/04/15 01:16:36


Post by: augfubuoy


I was thinking, say we had a tricked out CHQ, and we've been hit with a bunch of shots, some of which negate our save or are instant-death, and we've got 4 guys plus the JO, one with plasma, 1 with GL, 2 with flashlights, and the officer with pistol/chainsword. Now, the squad has been wounded by, say, 3 Armor-save negating shots and 3 instant death. Now, by using wound allocation we could first slap on 2 instant-death wounds on to the 2 regular guys and another on, say, the GL guy. With the "Look Out...Arrrg! rule, couldn't we put an extra save-negating rules on the same guys who will be dead already (the 2 reg. guys and the GL guy)?

Really hope this makes sense, but I'm too tired...


IG codex @ 2009/04/15 01:26:34


Post by: Neil


Rangerrob wrote:I was right there with yah...until I heard that the shot ALWAYS deviates at least 2d6...more if you are out of LOS.


Although this may get FAQ'd.. a Mortar in that squad only costs 5 points. Multiple barrage!

Same trick as the Griffon/Colossus


IG codex @ 2009/04/15 01:30:10


Post by: Rangerrob


Neil wrote:
Rangerrob wrote:I was right there with yah...until I heard that the shot ALWAYS deviates at least 2d6...more if you are out of LOS.


Although this may get FAQ'd.. a Mortar in that squad only costs 5 points. Multiple barrage!

Same trick as the Griffon/Colossus


omg...that is awesome. Cheesy as hell, but awesome. Yeah that one will get FAQ'ed. Eat your heart out Tau...The guard got a Marker Mortar.


IG codex @ 2009/04/15 01:35:03


Post by: Ciaphas-Cain


Marker Mortar... I like it!!!!!!!!!


IG codex @ 2009/04/15 02:53:35


Post by: The Angry Commissar


i dont think a shot that scatters so much is worth 30 pts. according to warseer "Shot scatters 2d6 on a "hit" & 3d6 on a arrow, deduct BS if within LoS." too much 4 my taste when i could just blow them up with a LR. also you have to accept the fact that you may hit your own men. its a cool idea but with too much scatter 4 me.


IG codex @ 2009/04/15 05:00:17


Post by: JB


Neil wrote:
Rangerrob wrote:I was right there with yah...until I heard that the shot ALWAYS deviates at least 2d6...more if you are out of LOS.


Although this may get FAQ'd.. a Mortar in that squad only costs 5 points. Multiple barrage!

Same trick as the Griffon/Colossus

It's not quite as accurate as the Griffon/Colossus but it is technically legal. Just anticipate your opponent getting red around the gills. Also ensure that the mortar is closer to the enemy than the Officer of the Fleet or your ranging shot will be the big and wide-ranging ordnance barrage (see BRB p. 32).

I also expect this one to get FAQd. It's simply too evil.


IG codex @ 2009/04/15 12:47:03


Post by: Scott-S6


Mellon wrote:A Valkyrie costs £34.25, The Vendetta forgeworld upgrade kit will probably cost £11.75 (that's what the tank upgrade kits costs). So thats £46 for a Vendetta, roughly £15 per TL lascannon. Multiply by 6-9. It means that the rich kids (and the grownups with a lot of spendable income) will get much better armies than the kids with workingclass parents. And it makes me wish I could buy some GW-stock, because they will make some serious money the second quarter of -09.


Valks cost £26 if you bother to look somewhere other than your local GW.


IG codex @ 2009/04/15 14:43:21


Post by: H.B.M.C.


*phew*

And speaking of cheap Valkyries, I just got mine for £29.75 each, £4.50 cheaper than standard UK cost and, when compared to prices here, AUD$34 cheaper than prices in my country. That's a 35% saving on each Valk I ordered, all thanks to the fine folks at Maelstrom.

It's fun making big orders like that.


IG codex @ 2009/04/15 16:24:23


Post by: Necros


Silly question.. didn't see this when I was looking at the rules... but, does your CCS or PCS need to have a vox in it, in order for other squads to be able to use their voxes to reroll orders? Or does a vox in a cmd squad just mean that cmd squad can reroll if they need to?


IG codex @ 2009/04/15 16:26:23


Post by: stonefox


Both the command and ordered unit require the vox caster for the re-roll.


IG codex @ 2009/04/15 16:40:46


Post by: sonofruss


I think I know why the vox gets a re roll and the distance stinks the first order is yelled and the re roll is them using the vox to confirm the order.


IG codex @ 2009/04/15 16:43:29


Post by: stonefox


It's a loudspeaker. That's what that large hemisphere on the vox is. I don't get why people are talking about stringed pairs of tin cans.


IG codex @ 2009/04/15 16:45:24


Post by: ShumaGorath


Voxes are boxes with foxes that talkses. Of course they aren't going to work well over distances.


IG codex @ 2009/04/15 17:07:50


Post by: Raxmei


stonefox wrote:It's a loudspeaker. That's what that large hemisphere on the vox is. I don't get why people are talking about stringed pairs of tin cans.
The voxcaster isn't a loudspeaker. It is a sophisticated and reliable communications array that is connected to the Tactical command net via tight beam transmitters and a series of signal decoders.

A loudspeaker would logically allow your voice to be heard from further away. Because it would make your voice louder.


IG codex @ 2009/04/15 17:08:46


Post by: Gwar!


My Cadians use pigeons instead of voxes. Sadly the Foxes get into the boxes where I keep my Voxes and eat them :(


IG codex @ 2009/04/15 17:16:15


Post by: halonachos


You should go on the Firefoxes to fnd a dockses that'll deport the foxes that get into your voxes.


IG codex @ 2009/04/15 17:52:38


Post by: stonefox


Raxmei wrote:
stonefox wrote:It's a loudspeaker. That's what that large hemisphere on the vox is. I don't get why people are talking about stringed pairs of tin cans.
The voxcaster isn't a loudspeaker. It is a sophisticated and reliable communications array that is connected to the Tactical command net via tight beam transmitters and a series of signal decoders.

Sounds like a longwinded way to say loudspeaker.


A loudspeaker would logically allow your voice to be heard from further away. Because it would make your voice louder.

There's explosions and other loud stuff happening.


IG codex @ 2009/04/15 17:55:37


Post by: MikeK


Why would loudspeakers need decoders and why does the receiving unit need their own "loudspeaker" to hear orders?


IG codex @ 2009/04/15 18:05:07


Post by: ShumaGorath


MikeK wrote:Why would loudspeakers need decoders and why does the receiving unit need their own "loudspeaker" to hear orders?


Well sergeant pointshout and sergeant baldscream both have pretty bad lisps. The other loudspeaker is so that they can ask for clarification.


IG codex @ 2009/04/15 18:06:37


Post by: Raxmei


How do you make a loudspeaker send a tight beam transmission? And regardless of any other noise in the environment, an amplified voice would be audible from a longer distance than an unaided one.

One might also note that the vox model has antennas.

I swear, we had this exact same argument a couple dozen pages ago.


IG codex @ 2009/04/15 18:08:24


Post by: stonefox


The antennas are really long, adjustable microphones for the loudspeaker. And while this loudspeaker "could" send tight-beam transmissions, due to the loss of the STC and the Imperium's distaste for research, they don't know how to use it.

Well sergeant pointshout and sergeant baldscream both have pretty bad lisps. The other loudspeaker is so that they can ask for clarification.

In the form of a re-roll.


IG codex @ 2009/04/15 18:17:34


Post by: Raxmei


You're taking the piss, aren't you?


IG codex @ 2009/04/15 18:20:30


Post by: stonefox


I have a smiley face with jello for an avatar as well as a picture of a couple funny dogs with glasses. What do you think?


IG codex @ 2009/04/15 18:33:26


Post by: ShumaGorath


stonefox wrote:I have a smiley face with jello for an avatar as well as a picture of a couple funny dogs with glasses. What do you think?


As you can tell from my avatar and signature I am being totally serious as well.


IG codex @ 2009/04/15 18:34:33


Post by: halonachos


The vox is like a radio system but the person operating it has a microphone to speak into in order to tell them what's happening.


IG codex @ 2009/04/15 21:54:09


Post by: AlexCage


OR! OR! The Vox is an arbitrary upgrade that allows you to do something equally as arbitrary.

Further examples of this include:
Platoon Standards
Gunnery Sgt. Harker
Extra Armor
Stormtroopers


IG codex @ 2009/04/15 22:17:08


Post by: Shep


AlexCage wrote:OR! OR! The Vox is an arbitrary upgrade that allows you to do something equally as arbitrary.

Further examples of this include:
Platoon Standards
Gunnery Sgt. Harker
Extra Armor
Stormtroopers


I think you might be misusing the word 'arbitrary' here.

Doing something "arbitrary" (or arbitrarily) would be using personal discretion or preference to do something rather than doing what a law or rule says.

A player taking a platoon standard isn't arbitrary. Nor is taking extra armor.

Furthermore, the vox behaving like it does under the new codex is not arbitrary. One could make the case that "real radios can transmit very long distances therefore, creating a rule in a board game that doesn't convey that reaslism is arbitrary." But I would disagree. First, I am extremely opposed to using 'fantasy realism' as an argument in any case. If monsters are real, then you have to suspend disbelief. Second, the decision to create the rule as it stands was a conscious one, in an effort to make the army play a certain way and have a certain 'feel'.

I dunno. I have a feeling I'm not going to get any traction trying to get people to not complain about something on the internet.


IG codex @ 2009/04/15 22:21:18


Post by: Steelmage99


I making a few Guardsmen holding big signs over their heads.

"Bring that enemy tank down, sergeant!"
"What?"
*turns head*
"Oh....got it, captain"


IG codex @ 2009/04/15 22:35:26


Post by: BrookM


Reading through things it does look okay, except for a few tiny points like the absense of storm bolters, the inability to field my enginseer with plasma pistol and that I can't slap Pask onto a Baneblade, he's Russ material only sadly.

edit.

And "hot-shot" is a horrible word! What's wrong with Hellgun all of the sudden?


IG codex @ 2009/04/15 22:41:03


Post by: AlexCage


Shep wrote:
AlexCage wrote:OR! OR! The Vox is an arbitrary upgrade that allows you to do something equally as arbitrary.

Further examples of this include:
Platoon Standards
Gunnery Sgt. Harker
Extra Armor
Stormtroopers


I think you might be misusing the word 'arbitrary' here.

Doing something "arbitrary" (or arbitrarily) would be using personal discretion or preference to do something rather than doing what a law or rule says.

A player taking a platoon standard isn't arbitrary. Nor is taking extra armor.


No no, not 'taking' these things is arbitrary, what they do and what they are, however, are. You'll be hard pressed to convince me that anything these things do makes any friggin' sense.

And I may have thrown stormtroopers in there just to be popular. It's somewhat in vouge to bitch about them.


IG codex @ 2009/04/15 22:44:59


Post by: pakman


So before this codex came out or more precisely was leaked, I had wanted to put together a Guard army. I wanted to do an all drop troops style force. Not necessarily the best build but I wanted it to be fun, not competitive. Is there any way to do this with the new Codex? Having guardsman jump in with grav chutes?


IG codex @ 2009/04/15 22:45:39


Post by: AlexCage


Only way is to load'em up in Valkyries. Good luck!


IG codex @ 2009/04/15 22:45:51


Post by: Shep


BrookM wrote:Reading through things it does look okay, except for a few tiny points like the absense of storm bolters, the inability to field my enginseer with plasma pistol and that I can't slap Pask onto a Baneblade, he's Russ material only sadly.

edit.

And "hot-shot" is a horrible word! What's wrong with Hellgun all of the sudden?


Whenever a new codex comes out there are people who deserve pity.

In the IG community, they are....

1. People who were smart and industrious and put lasguns on their sergeants. I was spared this fate by playing vostroyans and being too lazy to alter the metal sergeants. But the guys that have lasgun sarges are boned and that sucks.

2. People who used other wargear options that are WSYWIG and do not appear in the new book.

3. Warrior weapons players deserve your pity. On so many levels



I think they are hot-shot lasguns so that we would tear each other apart in YMDC about whether you can FRFSRF with them or not.

But seriously, I think the decision was made to ret-con the name in order to fit in with both the older fluff of IG and with the current Dan Abnett novels. One of the biggest SNAFU's was that in the english version of the codex, when talking about the new hot-shot lasgun in the storm trooper section, the term hellgun appears. Oops, cut and paste fail.


IG codex @ 2009/04/15 22:57:21


Post by: madmen


Just want to double check something I couldn't find earlier in the thread. With the new dex we can have 1+ CCS? and PCS are not required anymore?

Seems wierd to me.


IG codex @ 2009/04/15 23:25:55


Post by: Gwar!


Errrm, what? Platoon Command Squads are most Certainly Mandatory (assuming that's what PCS means) and CCS have no limits other than the FoC (So you can take one, two or none).

oh, and Hotshot Lasguns is yet another nugget that shows GW are moving away from being a games company to a company that peddles crap to kiddies, because "Hell" is a bad word (Compare ANY chaos 2nd ed fluff to today's and you will see what I mean)

Ah who am I kidding GW hasn't given a gak about vet games for years now. I don't know why everyone is so surprised tbh


IG codex @ 2009/04/15 23:34:12


Post by: alarmingrick


"1. People who were smart and industrious and put lasguns on their sergeants. I was spared this fate by playing vostroyans and being too lazy to alter the metal sergeants. But the guys that have lasgun sarges are boned and that sucks."

sorry ,but i'm not redoing the few sgt. models i have that are carrying lasguns. i can't see anybody raising that big of an issue about it.

more on topic, i haven't heard much talk of people using Yarrick. does anybody feel like it's time for him to make his dramatic comeback?


IG codex @ 2009/04/15 23:46:46


Post by: Rangerrob


Gwar! wrote:Errrm, what? Platoon Command Squads are most Certainly Mandatory (assuming that's what PCS means)


Mandatory if you want to take Infantry Platoons, hvy weap teams, Spec weapon teams or conscripts...

But if you plan on filling your Troops with just Veteran squads...I don't think you need you need to have a PCS.


IG codex @ 2009/04/15 23:47:40


Post by: ph34r


Gwar! wrote:oh, and Hotshot Lasguns is yet another nugget that shows GW are moving away from being a games company to a company that peddles crap to kiddies, because "Hell" is a bad word (Compare ANY chaos 2nd ed fluff to today's and you will see what I mean)
Ah who am I kidding GW hasn't given a gak about vet games for years now. I don't know why everyone is so surprised tbh


BrookM wrote:And "hot-shot" is a horrible word! What's wrong with Hellgun all of the sudden?


Hot shot lasgun was the original name for the storm trooper's weapon, long long ago.


IG codex @ 2009/04/15 23:50:17


Post by: H.B.M.C.


alarmingrick wrote:more on topic, i haven't heard much talk of people using Yarrick. does anybody feel like it's time for him to make his dramatic comeback?


Hell-fething-yes! You seen the rules he's got? A T4 human, 3 wounds, Eternal Warrior, re-roll successful To Wounds against him and he can get back up on a 3+!!! He's finally Yarrick again, not that insulting T3/Medallion Crimson Yarrick-Lite from the last Codex.

Him and Straken should team up!


IG codex @ 2009/04/15 23:56:27


Post by: Dave47


Gwar! wrote:oh, and Hotshot Lasguns is yet another nugget that shows GW are moving away from being a games company to a company that peddles crap to kiddies, because "Hell" is a bad word (Compare ANY chaos 2nd ed fluff to today's and you will see what I mean)

Oh no! GW is moving away from their awesome darkness by returning to the 2nd Edition name for the gun! This return to the brightly painted light of 2nd Edition will not stand!

If only GW was brave enough to return to the darkness of the 2nd Edition fluff, as visible in the old 2nd Edition Chaos Codex!


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 00:02:08


Post by: Dave47


Shep wrote:Whenever a new codex comes out there are people who deserve pity.

In the IG community, they are....

1. People who were smart and industrious and put lasguns on their sergeants. I was spared this fate by playing vostroyans and being too lazy to alter the metal sergeants. But the guys that have lasgun sarges are boned and that sucks.

2. People who used other wargear options that are WSYWIG and do not appear in the new book.

3. Warrior weapons players deserve your pity. On so many levels

You forgot "people who have heavy weapons modeled on separate bases" and "people whose veteran squads have pistols."

The removal of wargear options is really mind-boggling, given that they're simultaneously denying some models the ability to take a rifle while denying other models the ability to not take a rifle.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 00:39:59


Post by: madmen


Rangerrob wrote:
Gwar! wrote:Errrm, what? Platoon Command Squads are most Certainly Mandatory (assuming that's what PCS means)


Mandatory if you want to take Infantry Platoons, hvy weap teams, Spec weapon teams or conscripts...

But if you plan on filling your Troops with just Veteran squads...I don't think you need you need to have a PCS.


I see now - Vets are a Troops choice for the FoC by themselves. I'm just so used to thinking platoon wise. Thanks for clearing things up.

And I totally agree with everyone about the wargear - I have a handful of metal Catachan Lts with Bolters. I can't even cut them off bc the ammo runs all around the arm and onto the body.

http://kofler.dot.at/40k/units/Imperial_Guard_Catachan_Lieutenant.gif

LAME


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 00:42:30


Post by: focusedfire


halonachos wrote:The vox is like a radio system but the person operating it has a microphone to speak into in order to tell them what's happening.



Maybe the Vox innards are just a psyker in a jar and the antenna's that are attached are there to just confuse the enemy.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 00:58:01


Post by: Rangerrob


madmen wrote:I see now - Vets are a Troops choice for the FoC by themselves. I'm just so used to thinking platoon wise. Thanks for clearing things up.

And I totally agree with everyone about the wargear - I have a handful of metal Catachan Lts with Bolters. I can't even cut them off bc the ammo runs all around the arm and onto the body.

http://kofler.dot.at/40k/units/Imperial_Guard_Catachan_Lieutenant.gif

LAME


Nah..Your fine...Bolters and Bolt Pistols are still availble to officers...just no Storm Bolters.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 03:44:51


Post by: glon52


Just looking for some clarification. A vox simply lets me reroll failed orders and I need to be within 6 inches of the platoon officer or 12 inches of the company officer to even receive officers, correct?


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 03:50:48


Post by: Gwar!


glon52 wrote:Just looking for some clarification. A vox simply lets me reroll failed orders and I need to be within 6 inches of the platoon officer or 12 inches of the company officer to even receive officers, correct?
Correct. It's to make you set up your squads somewhat tactically/babysit 2 squads


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 03:57:44


Post by: glon52


It's to make you set up your squads somewhat tactically/babysit 2 squads


I would agree with the babysit but disagree with the tactically.

I have 17 guardsmen with voxcasters. Anyone want to buy them?


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 03:59:33


Post by: augfubuoy


Dude, heck yes!


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 03:59:34


Post by: Gwar!


Urrr, you do realised Vox casters are still useful?

That reroll is dead handy.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 04:00:19


Post by: Gwar!


Damn double post.

I'll just add that I cannot believe the amount of whining I've seen from guard Players. You have the most up to date and broken codex, and all you can do is cry about limited range voxes and sergeants without lasguns???


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 04:03:15


Post by: augfubuoy


Meh. I play mostly Mech anyway, so I don't care.

btw, I'm not bitching, just making a joke 'K?


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 04:20:06


Post by: Gwar!


Mech? Lucky you. 5 Man Fire-Point, No Longer Open topped when doing so, Officers can still issue orders. Mech Guard got awesome (and cheaper points wise too)


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 04:23:42


Post by: krusty


while theyre not as good as rumored to be, i really dont find a problem with them now that other people do (and yes, i am one of the people that already has my models assembled and painted with vox casters)

with all squads having vet sergeants, commissars available for any unit, etc., theres really nothing to bitch about...


what peril it must be to be a power gamer; nothing is ever good enough...


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 04:50:22


Post by: Oldgrue


I'm terribly entertained that my infantry platoons can be 140 men strong. It also entertains me that Witch Hunters finally got some long range fire support thanks to being able to take an IG infantry Platoon as a troops choice!

The crappy elites also give me a great excuse to bring an Inquisitor and a Vindicare!


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 05:21:10


Post by: jp400


Gwar! wrote:Damn double post.

I'll just add that I cannot believe the amount of whining I've seen from guard Players. You have the most up to date and broken codex, and all you can do is cry about limited range voxes and sergeants without lasguns???


Wait what?

Did you just actually use the words Imperial Guard and Broken at the same time and actually mean it?!?!

Now I have seen everything!

Just dont tell H.B.M.C.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 05:32:17


Post by: ph34r


krusty wrote:while theyre not as good as rumored to be, i really dont find a problem with them now that other people do (and yes, i am one of the people that already has my models assembled and painted with vox casters)

with all squads having vet sergeants, commissars available for any unit, etc., theres really nothing to bitch about...


what peril it must be to be a power gamer; nothing is ever good enough...

I'm not a power gamer, but I don't take bad options just for funsies. I take decent options that fit my army theme.
All squads have vet sgts and frags included in their cost. Commissars are worse than they were before so that doesn't really matter. I like the new guard book but there is far from nothing to "bitch" about. There are many very stupid things in the new book.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 05:36:05


Post by: BrookM


Shep wrote:
BrookM wrote:Reading through things it does look okay, except for a few tiny points like the absense of storm bolters, the inability to field my enginseer with plasma pistol and that I can't slap Pask onto a Baneblade, he's Russ material only sadly.

edit.

And "hot-shot" is a horrible word! What's wrong with Hellgun all of the sudden?


Whenever a new codex comes out there are people who deserve pity.

In the IG community, they are....

1. People who were smart and industrious and put lasguns on their sergeants. I was spared this fate by playing vostroyans and being too lazy to alter the metal sergeants. But the guys that have lasgun sarges are boned and that sucks.

2. People who used other wargear options that are WSYWIG and do not appear in the new book.

3. Warrior weapons players deserve your pity. On so many levels

I think they are hot-shot lasguns so that we would tear each other apart in YMDC about whether you can FRFSRF with them or not.

But seriously, I think the decision was made to ret-con the name in order to fit in with both the older fluff of IG and with the current Dan Abnett novels. One of the biggest SNAFU's was that in the english version of the codex, when talking about the new hot-shot lasgun in the storm trooper section, the term hellgun appears. Oops, cut and paste fail.
Yeah, point one is touchy with me, I've decided to put all my lasgun sergeants into a new squad full of screaming guys. And point three while not a personal issue for me does sting for the guy at the store who went all out with his feral guard army made from marauders and chans.

I'm sure the author of the codex has the, ahem, "best of intent" in his mind but somewhere along the way he either got carried away, Jervis got carried away or one or both of them tried a little too hard to make the codex fit the current image of 40k.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 06:07:14


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Gwar! wrote:You have the most up to date and broken codex


Whoa... hold on there sport. Broken? Guard? Monoworded sentences?

You must hail from the Chicken Little School of Sky Falling because Guard ain't broken. This Codex is more a lateral shift, some bad things got better, some good things got worse, some bad things got even worse, and some good things got even better. The only real exception to this is the Vendetta, but not because it is so completely awesome (don't get me wrong, it shouldn't be that powerful) but more because of how redundant and overcosted the Valk is. It shifts the style of Guard armies, but not really their power level.

And if they have become a more powerful army overall, then that's a good thing - it might just make them viable in 5th.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 06:18:42


Post by: AlfredTheStrange


H.B.M.C. wrote:
alarmingrick wrote:more on topic, i haven't heard much talk of people using Yarrick. does anybody feel like it's time for him to make his dramatic comeback?


Hell-fething-yes! You seen the rules he's got? A T4 human, 3 wounds, Eternal Warrior, re-roll successful To Wounds against him and he can get back up on a 3+!!! He's finally Yarrick again, not that insulting T3/Medallion Crimson Yarrick-Lite from the last Codex.

Him and Straken should team up!


How about Yarick, Straken and Chenkov in some sort of sickening tag team? thats what I did this evening. 2X 50 Stuborn, leadership 10, counter attack, furious charge, "send in the next wave", conscripts. Then rapid fire FRSR'ed said 50 conscripts! it'l ruin someones day.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 06:33:11


Post by: focusedfire


H.B.M.C.-Doubling effective power on your standard battle tanks for only a 15 point increase and it only, "shifts the style of Guard armies, but not really their power level."

The Guard just became a fast army and it, "Is more of a lateral shift"

Cheap battle psykers that lets the IE(Imperial Eldar) do its version of dual lash by leadership whipping your opponents off of the board. Yeah, it just might make them viable in 5th.


IMHO,This thread is beginning to make me think that a lot of the veteran players are so stuck in the old ways that they're going to have difficulty adapting to these new styles. I'm looking for a newcomer to romp and stomp with the IE at the tournies this year. I'll even go as far to say that a fair number of the lists will, probably, have "a" squad of the "useless" Stormtroopers in it.

I know, you're going to say that I'm way off base here. Especially the last part, but time will tell.





IG codex @ 2009/04/16 06:36:56


Post by: JohnHwangDD


Gwar! wrote:You have the most up to date and broken codex, and all you can do is cry about limited range voxes and sergeants without lasguns???

Hahahahaha!!! That's a good one!

No, I'm not crying about those things.

I'm pissed about (in no particular order):

1. Heavy Weapons
- T3 W2 blobs on 60mm bases
- continued overpricing
The basing / W2 thing is a completely fething slowed and unnecessary change, and I am *NOT* going to play ball. Also, the pricing for MLs & Lascannons is still messed up.

2. Mobility
- loss of efficient strategic & tactical mobility (i.e. Drop Troops & Light Infiltrate)
Chimera is still grossly overpriced in a 5E mono-Dedicated Transport context. If it were 40-45 pts, or AV12/12 for 55 pts, that might be OK. But lacking mass Deep Strike and/or mass Infiltrate as alternatives, at 55 pts, it's too expensive

3. Durabilty
- loss of efficient durability (i.e. Cameoline & Carapace)
Neither of these options were broken or significantly unfair, although a slight adjustment to 15 pts for either choice would have been OK.

4. Elites
- 16-pt Storms
- 40-pt Ogryns
These could both have been quite attractive options, but neither is playable at all due to punitive prices. Ogryns were overpriced at 25 pts, and their cost went up by more than 50%. Storms were also overpriced at 10 pts, and their cost also went up by over 50%. Sheer idiocy. But at least we'll know who the true "Fluff" players are

5. Armor
- Lumbering Behemoth pointless
While Squadrons are nice, the supposed fix of "Lumbering Behemoth" is a joke, as Sponsons are no more playable now than they ever were before.

Taken all together, GW is basically painting IG back into a corner where they are only good for a static gunline. We actually lost a lot of capabilities compared to the previous Codex pretty much across the board. While Platoons more-or-less stayed the same, the only net gain is in static pie-throwing, for which we have somewhat more flavors than before. Sure, we got the Valkyrie, which is basically a less-durable Wave Serpent, at full points cost. I was hoping for a revamp that pushed IG squarely into the Mechanized / Airborne / Ambush world, and that simply didn't happen.
____

focusedfire wrote:Doubling effective power on your standard battle tanks for only a 15 point increase

The Guard just became a fast army

Cheap battle psykers

This thread is beginning to make me think that a lot of the veteran players are so stuck in the old ways

I'm confused. Extra Armor tripling its cost from 5 pts doesn't double the effective power. Nor does Lumbering Behemoth. So what are you talking about here - please explain.

The new Guard are a lot slower than an all-Drop Troop (Deep Strike) or Light Infantry (Infiltate) armor. Chimeras aren't fast, and at 55+ pts each, they're not cheap. Valkyries are Fast, but at 100+ pts, you can't afford to take them.

The Primaris Psyker is one dude, and that isn't how Guard win. The Psyker Choir is interesting, but their points are probably better spent on more stripper Demolishers.

I think most of us veteran players have a pretty good read on what changed in the new book. For the most part, Guard stayed the same or got worse. Perhaps 5% to 10% got a bit better, but nothing of great significance occurred from what I see. Overall, I see the coming IG Codex as a failure.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 06:41:29


Post by: H.B.M.C.


focusedfire wrote:H.B.M.C.-Doubling effective power on your standard battle tanks for only a 15 point increase and it only, "shifts the style of Guard armies, but not really their power level."


Tempered by the presence of the Squadron rules, forcing groups of tanks to fire at the same target and allowing them to die to glancing hits.

focusedfire wrote:The Guard just became a fast army and it, "Is more of a lateral shift"


We had Drop Troops already. We just swapped a free ability for all our squads for a very good skimmer.

focusedfire wrote:Cheap battle psykers that lets the IE(Imperial Eldar) do its version of dual lash by leadership whipping your opponents off of the board. Yeah, it just might make them viable in 5th.


Psychic Chiors aren't 'Lash' like any more than Zoanthropes are. People are overstating the power of this... power. What good will it be against all the Fearless units in the game?


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 07:48:36


Post by: focusedfire


@ JohnhwangDD-
1)The lumbering behemoth rule actually allows your tanks to be mobile whilst still delivering about double the Tank killing/MEQ killing/Monsterous creature killing shots a turn. This isn't even counting your fast attacks now actually being fast. I don't know what other abilities are coming with the Tanks just yet. As an Eldar player, I'm pretty sure you know exactly how much of a speed increase the guard have been given and how much this codex is going to change the metagame.

I also love how much this game shifts in just a year when 55 pt transports are expensive. Fully kitted warfish are 120 pts have kess capability for firepower, shorter ranged weapons,and they aren't fast either. Tactical hint about the Chimeras, they are still less than 4" wide and don't have side exit points, for a reason now. A vehicle squadron maintains 4"coherency. Cover the sides and maybe the front, you have an armored spear head that is like a juggernaught. I know this has a big foot print but who beside IG dishes out tons of AV14 killing ordinance.

2There is nothing preventing you from running an all drop army in this dex if your willing to run the valk, vendettas and one or two elite choices of storms. Now your probably looking at the negatives to counter this argument but just remember the negatives of doctrines. Every unit or tactic no matter how good, has or is supposed to have a flip side that is a drawback.

3)The psychic choir when combined with a chimera and squadrons of ordinace equals a lot of forced leadership tests. I don't look at it from the perspective of one unit but the combinations.

4)I play Tau. I have absolutely no fear of the guard drop troop doctrine list or any other list from the current codex. I've already seen three builds that are going to take almost everything that I have just to keep up in this new book.



@H.B.M.C.- 1)Who beside the Tau can dish out those kind of AV14&13 penning shots in a single turn much less from a single squadron? And this army has the answer to the Tau. It also now has the answer for the Orks, Eldar, SMs, MCs, and MEQs.

The Tanks firing at the same target isn't as much of a negative because you figure all of the hits before moving on to wounds and then removal. This just means that there is going to be more models under the second template, And if you don't want to play that way you can still take single tanks. Right?

2)You still have drop troops. You also now have fast survivable units instead of the KP give away you had before.

3)Then against fearless units they drop the big pie plate o'doom on them. Its not like they have only one purpose and beyond that they are screwed. This isan area that guard are better at than Tau or Eldar. One squad being decent at multiple things.



edited some horrendous spelling/typos


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 08:05:21


Post by: Somnicide


EDIT: PLEASE DO NOT DENEGRATE OTHER USERS WITH PERSONAL ATTACK
Waaagh_Gonads

The list is good and interesting. It has huge flexibility. Guard is finally more than one dimension and yet the usual suspects who gripe about everything are griping about this. Seriously, why even play a game that you all obviously dislike so much. Write up your own rules and go play with yourselves.

The rumor thread should probably be closed and a tactics thread opened now that the codex is pretty available at most LGS's


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 08:32:26


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Somnicide wrote:Seriously, why even play a game that you all obviously dislike so much. Write up your own rules and go play with yourselves.


*sigh*

See, arguments like this are equal parts amusing and disheatening. They're amusing because they hold no water, and disheartening because it's sad when someone thinks that they're actually making a point. If I truly disliked 40K, I wouldn't play it, so please, spare us the "why do you play something you hate" claptrap. As far as making our own rules, we did. Before 4th Ed came out. And with all the humility I can summon, they're better rules than GW's.

Next!


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 08:40:19


Post by: focusedfire


HHmm. It is funny how the most intelligent can be bated.

H.B.M.C.- You had a reasonable reply up above yet you focused upon the trollish one. By giving such attention are you not giving them exactly what they wish, thus in some small part encouraging others to, also, do so?


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 08:53:27


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Don't presume to know who, why or when I am replying to someone. Just because I haven't done something yet, doesn't mean I'm not going to. But since you asked...


1)Who beside the Tau can dish out those kind of AV14&13 penning shots in a single turn much less from a single squadron? And this army has the answer to the Tau. It also now has the answer for the Orks, Eldar, SMs, MCs, and MEQs.


I assume when you talk about anti-armour you're referring to a Squadron of Vanquishers yes? 50% of Vanquisher shots will miss, and of the shots that hit, 50% of them will be ignored by the cover enemy tanks are usually in (unless they're advancing in transports of course). The points paid for a Vanquisher isn't worth having 75% of its shots do nothing all game.

Or if you're talking about the Vendetta, as I have said, I believe this vehicle to be stupidly good. I truly wish it was not part of the Codex, just like I truly wish the Valkyrie wasn't an overpriced piece of gak with no options to speak of. There was nothing wrong with the Forge World version - just some tweaking for regular 40K and Bob's your uncle. I can't claim to know how effective certain combinations of tanks will be - none of us can yet, aside from educated guesses - and I doubt we'll know the ramifications of vehicles in squadrons until we've all gone out and tested them. But if I had to make an educated guess I'd say that for all the 'power' that's there, there's enough working against that power to balance it (higher costs of vehicles, higher costs of upgrades for vehicles, dying on immobilisation results).

To put another way, not all powerful units are unbalanced. You can have powerful balanced units, and I think that's what Russ Squadrons will be. Certainly not 'broken' as some people seem to want to think.

The Tanks firing at the same target isn't as much of a negative because you figure all of the hits before moving on to wounds and then removal. This just means that there is going to be more models under the second template


So thanks to a quirk in the way the rules work, they might be effective (or over-effective). Look at it from a different angle, perhaps that quirk of the rules is what actually makes such a formation viable. If you worked out one tank before firing the next, would they be anywhere near as good? No. The third one would be a waste and, in fact, there would never be a third tank.

Which leads me nicley to...

And if you don't want to play that way you can still take single tanks. Right?


I'm deathly afraid of this coming to pass, for all that hard work and extra-long lunches that Arby would have put into this Codex and its rules only to find that no one used Squadrons because of all the downsides.

I hope Squadrons are powerful and not a liability, otherwise what's the point?

2)You still have drop troops. You also now have fast survivable units instead of the KP give away you had before.


Which, as I said, changes nothing. Rather than doing Drop Troops one way we just do it a different way - the method has changed the results have not. That's pendulum game design, and I hate it.

3)Then against fearless units they drop the big pie plate o'doom on them. Its not like they have only one purpose and beyond that they are screwed. This isan area that guard are better at than Tau or Eldar. One squad being decent at multiple things.


I don't really have a problem with a squad being good at doing different things - its a rarity in 40K - but really, we can't claim this unit to be the most broken unit ever (EVAR!!!1) until we've seen it used a few times across a range of games across a range of opponents against a range of armies.

Looking at a unit's stats can tell you a lot - it's what we're basing out (educated) guesses on - but it can't tell you everything.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 09:28:04


Post by: Agamemnon2


JohnHwangDD wrote:I think most of us veteran players have a pretty good read on what changed in the new book. For the most part, Guard stayed the same or got worse. Perhaps 5% to 10% got a bit better, but nothing of great significance occurred from what I see. Overall, I see the coming IG Codex as a failure.


I could not have said it better myself. There has never been a well designed IG codex (the 2E list's being horrible was somewhat offset by the metagame back then being an absolute mess anyway), and at this rate, there never will be. Fundamentally, the Guard playstyle is still the same it has always been, with maybe some numbers shifted around.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 09:53:13


Post by: ph34r


focusedfire wrote:1)The lumbering behemoth rule actually allows your tanks to be mobile whilst still delivering about double the Tank killing/MEQ killing/Monsterous creature killing shots a turn.

Oh, I thought it allowed me to shoot one more weapon (moving) or 3 more weapons (not moving, and you have to pay 20+ points for sponsons). So I guess you are referring to a leman russ with a turret lascannon and hull lascannon (double the tank killing shots from 1 lascannon!). I was not aware that this option existed.
My leman russes will either be wasting their (now more expensive) lascannon against infantry who are surely in cover, or wasting their battlecannons against vehicles that I shoot the lascannon at. Most likely though they will just sit there like they used to, except now they will fire more heavy bolter shots, be 20 points more expensive, and not have extra armor.
Now it's not all that bad though, 9 heavy bolter shots is a dead marine a turn, but it certainly isn't "mobile whilst still delivering about double the Tank killing/MEQ killing/Monsterous creature killing shots a turn".


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 10:16:00


Post by: H.B.M.C.


The rules didn't make Russes more mobile. It actually made them slower with no appreciable gain in firepower. I don't know why people seem to think that Lumbering Behemoth allows you to move and shoot everything - it doesn't - it allows you to shoot Ordnance along with other guns, assuming you could fire the guns normally. So if you move (and now they're slower at that), you can only fire defensive weapons plus your turret (whatever your turret may be). So if you have 3 Heavy Bolters (and pay the wonderfully pricey 20 points for them), you... can't fire them.

All these rules do is further reinforce the "Main Battle Bunker" problem with tanks in 5th (which came from 3rd Ed, the other ruleset Jervis wrote).


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 10:17:51


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Everyone get their cans of tinned food, keg-sized water supplies and head down to the bunkers.

Why?

Well...

Agamemnon2 wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:I think most of us veteran players have a pretty good read on what changed in the new book. For the most part, Guard stayed the same or got worse. Perhaps 5% to 10% got a bit better, but nothing of great significance occurred from what I see. Overall, I see the coming IG Codex as a failure.


I could not have said it better myself. There has never been a well designed IG codex (the 2E list's being horrible was somewhat offset by the metagame back then being an absolute mess anyway), and at this rate, there never will be. Fundamentally, the Guard playstyle is still the same it has always been, with maybe some numbers shifted around.


Myself, DD and Aggy agree on a point.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 10:25:14


Post by: Gwar!


H.B.M.C You seem to be misreading Lumbering behemoth rule.
It doesn't let you move and fire ordnance, because you could do that anyway (assuming it wasn't barrage) what it lets you do is Move 6" and Fire your turret PLUS 1 Main and all Defensive Weapons. So you can move and Shoot the turret plus your Hull Lascannon for example.

And as for commissars being worse... they are most certainly not.
Ld9 or Ld10 with Stubborn and a Reroll is 10000% better than fearless and taking over 9000 No Retreat! Wounds.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 10:27:27


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Yes, and let's take a look at what benefit there might be from moving... no, no, I'll think of it... umm... Ok, you could... no. You're better off in cover there... ok what about... ah... no, still better off in cover. I 'spose you could try... no... the Vendetta's faster anyway. Hmm... Oh! Yes! What about... wait... no... no.

Rather than spending 20 points on, say, some Heavy Bolters, spend those same points on Camo-Netting. Nothing says 'FETH YOUR RAILGUNS' quite like a 3+ Cover Save.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 10:31:34


Post by: Kungfuhustler


Just throwing this out there. I played a game tonight (big 3v3 game) and used a squad of 10 ogryns with a comissar lord. held 1,000 points of melee CSM up in combat for 4 rounds. MVP: bone ead'


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 10:34:40


Post by: Gwar!


Sometimes its better to move, say if a infantry squad with meltabombs is getting a little too close.

The fact is when you move russes are now able to fire twice as many weapons as any other Ordnance carrying tank (3 if you take a pintle weapon ;P) making them one of the most versatile tanks in the game.

Not to mention a Squadron of LRBT = Dead Nob Bikers/Other Horrible Gribbly Unit

But a Squad of Russes with Punishers and Heavy Bolters up the wazzoo in cover with camo netting shooting at a flootslogger ork army makes me tingle.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 10:41:29


Post by: Gwar!


Sometimes its better to move, say if a infantry squad with meltabombs is getting a little too close.

The fact is when you move russes are now able to fire twice as many weapons as any other Ordnance carrying tank (3 if you take a pintle weapon ;P) making them one of the most versatile tanks in the game.

Not to mention a Squadron of LRBT = Dead Nob Bikers/Other Horrible Gribbly Unit

But a Squad of Russes with Punishers and Heavy Bolters up the wazzoo in cover with camo netting shooting at a flootslogger ork army makes me tingle.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 11:39:56


Post by: Biophysic


Gwar! wrote:H.B.M.C You seem to be misreading Lumbering behemoth rule.
It doesn't let you move and fire ordnance, because you could do that anyway (assuming it wasn't barrage) what it lets you do is Move 6" and Fire your turret PLUS 1 Main and all Defensive Weapons. So you can move and Shoot the turret plus your Hull Lascannon for example.

And as for commissars being worse... they are most certainly not.
Ld9 or Ld10 with Stubborn and a Reroll is 10000% better than fearless and taking over 9000 No Retreat! Wounds.


I'm sorry, your point on Lumbering Behemoth doesn't make sense. You maybe double your mobile tank-killing power if you're foolish enough to buy the hull lascannon. You absolutely do not double your firepower if you keep the heavy bolter (regardless of target).

I agree with you, however, on Commissars. The ability to take them anywhere and have them not be ICs, stubborn 9 re-roll, and ability to affect multiple squads through the platoon rules make them far more useful in my eyes than they used to be.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 11:52:57


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Gwar! wrote:Sometimes its better to move, say if a infantry squad with meltabombs is getting a little too close.


And we could do that before, and we were faster at it too. Now we can do it and fire a Lascannon or Heavy Bolter.

Yay?

Gwar! wrote:The fact is when you move russes are now able to fire twice as many weapons as any other Ordnance carrying tank (3 if you take a pintle weapon ;P)


Either a Heavy Bolter - a drop in the ocean - or a Lascannon, a weapon that has always been ill-matched with the various Russ turrets except the Vanquisher, which no one would be foolish enough to take in the first place. Yes, it's a 'fact' that they can move, fire the turret and fire one other gun... but why? If you're moving to get away you're slower, and if you're moving just to shoot... then why move at all?

Gwar! wrote:But a Squad of Russes with Punishers and Heavy Bolters up the wazzoo in cover with camo netting shooting at a flootslogger ork army makes me tingle.


Why would you bother with a Punisher? 24" range, wounds Orks on 3's, and they get their save. Eradicator does a far better job, and it's cheaper.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 12:01:54


Post by: Gwar!


I think we can all agree that the Guard codex is both awesome and a big steamy pile.

Damn Guard -Grumble-

Also: SNAKES ON A PLANE!


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 13:07:36


Post by: BrookM


Is that random blurb link an attempt at avoiding something?


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 13:36:24


Post by: Lord Solar Plexus


H.B.M.C. wrote: It actually made them slower with no appreciable gain in firepower. I don't know why people seem to think that Lumbering Behemoth allows you to move and shoot everything - it doesn't - it allows you to shoot Ordnance along with other guns, assuming you could fire the guns normally. So if you move (and now they're slower at that), you can only fire defensive weapons plus your turret (whatever your turret may be). So if you have 3 Heavy Bolters (and pay the wonderfully pricey 20 points for them), you... can't fire them.


As others have pointed out, you were wrong on this one. It allows you to shoot ordnance + defensive weaponry + 1 main weapon on the move, which is for all intents and purposes an increase in firepower on the move. Negligible? Appreciable? It's a plus. Shooting a battlecannon and a lascannon at a tank or MC is better than shooting only one. Shooting a battle cannon and three HB's (while stationary of course) at an Ork mob is definitively much better than shooting only one or the other. Also, if you're going to shoot at all the LR isn't any slower, so mentioning both in the same sentence is misleading.

At the end of the day, LB is a benefit and standard LR MBT's are better than before.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Yes, and let's take a look at what benefit there might be from moving...


Why would we take a look at it? Don't tell me you don't know what benefits it might have. You argued that there would be no appreciable gain in firepower on the move.

The use of camo netting is highly circumstantial and IMO rubbish. I really don't know where you all get those cover saves from.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 13:53:05


Post by: Gwar!


Ok I just wanna check with all ya'll to make sure I am not mad.

Orders do not need LOS, correct? So long as the unit is within range the officer can be hiding behind a titan/wall of chimeras and still issue orders fine?

And that Double-Ones means a second unit auto passes a test for an extra free order?


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 14:14:40


Post by: Scottywan82


Actually, i was confused on the double 1 as well.

The wording could be read as:

-The unit that rolled the double 1 gets a second order free
OR
-The commanding unit gets an extra auto-passed order on another unit

Not sure which it is.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 14:16:35


Post by: Gwar!


The way I read It is that another unit gets a free order AND auto Passes that order.

I assume it was made to auto pass to avoid the freakish statistical impossibility where you roll so many snake eyes you end up with more "free" orders than you have squads.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 14:25:32


Post by: Necros


Didn't it say somewhere else that each unit can only get 1 order at a time/turn? So snake eyes means you get to issue a free order to someone else?


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 14:49:54


Post by: Gwar!


Necros wrote:Didn't it say somewhere else that each unit can only get 1 order at a time/turn? So snake eyes means you get to issue a free order to someone else?
Yeah thats correct. This even applies to units that failed an order. So you cant go "First order to them, oops I failed, send another order" but instead must go "First order to them, oops I failed because i didn't buy a vox caster. Silly me! Now I cant issue another order to them. BAWWWW!"


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 14:54:33


Post by: Necros


here's some fun ideas from BOLS on mixing some witch/demonhunters with new IG stuff

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2009/04/40k-tactica-by-authority-of-immortal.html


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 14:58:19


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Lord Solar Plexus wrote:At the end of the day, LB is a benefit and standard LR MBT's are better than before.


My point, Plexus, was to get passed this idiotic notion that the Codex was somehow 'broken'. I'm not arguing that Russes aren't better (a tank being able to fire all its guns is a good thing - pity more of 40K hasn't caught onto the idea of tanks firing all their weapons yet), I'm arguing that the LB ability doesn't make them broken. As far as being 'wrong' about the LB rule, I know what it does. A few pages back I even quoted the damn rule word for word. I worded it incorrectly here, perhaps I should have just requoted it.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Why would we take a look at it? Don't tell me you don't know what benefits it might have. You argued that there would be no appreciable gain in firepower on the move.


Not enough of a gain to make the unit broken, that's my point. Notice I was replying to Gwar, the one who said that it was 'broken'. Context helps Plexus. Look who I'm speaking to to work out why I'm saying what I'm saying.

H.B.M.C. wrote:The use of camo netting is highly circumstantial and IMO rubbish.


I think you mean 'situational'. And it's no more situational than movement.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 14:58:45


Post by: Gwar!


Oh wow, I just noticed you can give orders to allies.... Wow


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 15:36:00


Post by: Oldgrue


Finally got my grubby paws on a copy. (Not exposing my source, sorry. Cover art is arse, but we knew that.)

Inspired tactics hinges on the no need to test. Its most definitely additional, and automatically passes, so some other squad gets to giggle.

As for Vehicle Squadrons, its a 1:6 chance of being immobilized on a glance...so vehicle squadrons run like 4e vehicles. Glances are fatal 16%, penetrations 50%. Move along, nothing to see. Guard dealt with that before.

Lumbering behemoth really isn't going to change most guard lists anyway since moving 12" hasn't been a likely thing for a non-fast model. The uncomfortably close melta unit now gets shot at and changes target responses rather than application of the tank.

The Vendetta is better than some DE Ravagers at about the same price, but not enough better to really astound. A squadron strikes me as having a fair chance at being a titan killer (for those that play apocalypse and see such things.) Its an overhyped new toy, has a huge footprint, and with that base is near impossible to hide. Maybe I face too many skimmers.

HMBC, JHDD, et. al. have a solid point that there's no real change to the guard. The elites (by and large) aren't worth taking. The troops became an enhanced gunline at the cost of the dumbest heavy weapons ever.

@LSP :
I don't agree that the Russ got any better. It got more expensive in general and finally got the variants treadheads have been dying to field. The Variants are what is better than the standard Russ rather than the afterthought of a free heavy bolter.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 15:55:55


Post by: Fattimus_maximus


So does anyone still think a Infantry Heavy army is viable?


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 16:01:40


Post by: Lord Solar Plexus


Gwar! wrote:
Necros wrote:Didn't it say somewhere else that each unit can only get 1 order at a time/turn? So snake eyes means you get to issue a free order to someone else?
Yeah thats correct. This even applies to units that failed an order. So you cant go "First order to them, oops I failed, send another order" but instead must go "First order to them, oops I failed because i didn't buy a vox caster. Silly me! Now I cant issue another order to them. BAWWWW!"


Forgive me but that doesn't make sense. How can "this", ie. snake eyes apply to a unit that fails an order? With snake eyes it doesn't fail. Also, if every squad can only receive one order, what "another order" are you referring to? Afaik, they're not eligible for another order either way.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 16:10:51


Post by: Bodichi


I have read over 72 of these pages ( I skipped 5 that I didn't care for). Would some one be so kind as to enlighten be as to a few questons on HQ's

Can a CCS out fit the 4 guards mens as it does currently (ie with 4 special weapons, I know all the other wierd abilities?)
How many orders can that CCS send out a turn? is it a function of the squads in range or is it limited by the officer?
Is summary execution gone?
Do commisars take up elite or HQ slots (sionce they are no longer IC's?

Thank you and I am sorry if these questions have already been answered.

I am actually happy to see that commisars now come standard with BP's and that conscripts are stil 4 points and 20-50!


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 16:11:35


Post by: focusedfire


H.B.M.C.- It is not my position that this codex is broken. I never said such. I was only arguing that the codex is an improvment as opposed to a leteral shift or even the implied back-slide that some posters where making it seem.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Either a Heavy Bolter - a drop in the ocean - or a Lascannon, a weapon that has always been ill-matched with the various Russ turrets except the Vanquisher, which no one would be foolish enough to take in the first place. Yes, it's a 'fact' that they can move, fire the turret and fire one other gun... but why? If you're moving to get away you're slower, and if you're moving just to shoot... then why move at all?



Because it allows you to move and bring twice the tank stoping shots. It may seem foriegn to you but you'll actually be allowed jockey for non obscured shots. Also from what I've seen here lumbering behemoth only slows the tank on the final 6" of a possible 12" move. The first six inches you move normally.

I know its sad that a gun that was useless on the tank before is now able to function anytime that you can fired the Ordinance. That must be a terrible burden to bear.



@Ph34r- A S8 shot is never a waste against a tank.


I'll reply more later bur duties call IRL.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 16:15:20


Post by: Necros


Fattimus_maximus wrote:So does anyone still think a Infantry Heavy army is viable?


I'm no rules/tourney expert but I say yes. There's still tons of options for your men. Even if you don't like the HW teams now there's still nice options for specialist squads, vets, etc. And you can have so many men in just 1 platoon now it's silly. I've always done more tanks / less men but now I'm going for half & half. But if you want a lot of men I'd take 2 company commands and a few small platoons instead of 1 big one, that way you can get a lot of officers out there to give orders


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 16:21:44


Post by: don_mondo


Well, I grabbed the display copy at the store last night and drew up a list to test some of the new units/rules last night. Played against an Eldar army. Tried some stuff different from my usual, wanted to see if my thoughts on how it would tie together would work. Biggest difference is that I usually field lascannon/plasma gun in my line squads and I went heavy bolter/plasma guns instead.

My list, 1750:
HQ: Company Command, Vox, standard, autocannon, Astropath, Fleet Officer, Master of Ordnance

Elite: Psyker Battle Squad, four extra psykers, stock chimera

Troop: Platoon Command, vox, autocannon
IG squad, HB/PG, commissar, vox
IG squad, HB/PG
IG squad, HB/PG

Troop: Platoon Command, vox, autocannon
IG squad, HB/PG, commissar, vox
IG squad, HB/PG
IG squad, HB/PG

Heavy: Squadron, 2 x Griffons

Heavy: Leman Russ Executioner, Plasma sponsons

Heavy: Leman Russ Vanquisher, lascannon, Pask

DH Allies:
Inq Lord, mystics, etc
Callidus

Scenario was Dawn of War, 2 Obj.
Not gonna worry about a blow-by-blow, just gonna hit a few highlights and lessons learned.
Master of Ordnance, no good. Sounds great, a infantry model upgrade that shoots a Bassie shot every turn if he doesn't move. Drawback, always scatters, even on a hit. Worse, on an arrow it scatters 3d6. Five shots, not a single enemy model hit.
Astropath/Fleet Officer. Good. +1 to my Reserve rolls, -1 to his. Slowed down his Swooping Hawks and Warp Spiders, letting me pick apart his deployed stuff a little more before having to deal with them.

Mobbed up squads. You'll notivce the one commissar and vox in each platoon. By mobbing up, the 27 man squad is now Stubborn LD 9, with vox rerolls for orders. A Striking Scorpion squad got into one of the platoons and the combat went until all the IG were dead. Lesson learned. Power Weapons. Sgts and Commissars can have power weapons, and have lots of ablative wounds. Had I had PW on the four models allowed them, I would have won the combat in two rounds, wiping him out. Even against Marines, 12 PW attacks a turn ain't anything to sneeze at. Voxes, definite good. Rerolling Orders LD tests. Only question is does the vox allow a unit giving itself an order a reroll...... ...?

Psyker Battle Squad. Good! Kept them in the Chimera, moved it up 6" a turn, cast the negative leadership power (8 psykers, -1 LD for every psyker in the squad), every turn one of his units was LD 2........... .... Just for giggles I cast it on the Avatar the turn the Callidus arrived, then hit the Avatar with the Neural Shredder. ST 8 vs LD 2, wounded on a 2+, Instant Death (Avatar doesn't have Eternal Warrior). But he made his Invul save so I had to shoot him down with heavy bolters and plasma guns. Last turn, hit the squad sitting on his obj with a -8 LD, caused enough wounds to cause a Morale test, off they run. Once people learn what these guys can do, they will be a prime target. But that means they're not shooting other stuff, so I'm OK with that. Can't even see using the other large blast, variable AP power when this is available. Too bad it doesn't carry over into the enemy turn........ ...

Orders:
Bring It Down. Good. Twin Linked shooting at vehicles/Monstrous. Yeah, 27 guys firing twin linked HB/PG/flashlights at the Avatar...... .....
Fire On My Target. Good. Reroll successful cover saves. Turboboosting bikes are gonna hate this one.
Front Rank, Rear Rank. Good. Extra lasgun shots, if only it worked for everything.
Didn't really try out the others, but all look good.

Leman Russ Lumbering Behemoth, good. Pask in the Vanquisher, firing both Vanquisher Cannon and Lascannon on the move at BS 4. Downgraded somewhat as all his vehicles were Wave Serpents so I only got ST 8 and 1d6 penetration, still, worked well.

Leman Russ Executioner. Too good. This is gonna be the Gouda and Cheddar for IG. It's expensive, but 4 plasma cannon shots on the move, five sitting still. Go ahead, deep strike near me, cause you know my Inq and mystics are parked right next to the Executioner! Larger games I plan on a squadron of two of these.

Griffons. So happy to have these back. Good. They did OK last night, but I'm seeing their primary use against true horde armies. Maybe I can try them against Orks next week.

Lots of other units/special characters out there that I haven't tried yet. Borrowing a buddie's FW Valk to test it out, until I can get my plastic ones. Altho I'm thinking Vendetta instead of Valkyrie. Gonna try out Hardened Vets instead of the second platoon, with the two HV special caharacter sgts. Also want to see how Storm Troopers do. Might try out Creed, that way I can use him for pretty much all my orders and maybe let the Plt Cmd run around with 4 plasma or melta. Finally, gonna test out a full up Mech list with lots of Chimerae.

Any questions, feel free to ask.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 16:30:07


Post by: Gwar!


Few questions: How did you go on the Vox in own Squad issue? Just Curious.

And are Executioners really that effective?

How much did you laugh when you failed to kill a LD 2 Avatar?


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 16:36:34


Post by: Agamemnon2


don_mondo wrote:Well, I grabbed the display copy at the store last night and drew up a list to test some of the new units/rules last night.


I did the same today. Abject failure. Orders failed to make any difference, mobbing up squads proved to be a hindrance, none of the new units (I tried Griffon, Medusa, Veterans and Penal Legion) did anything noteworthy at all. 210 points of Ogryns, babysitted by a 76 point Canoness killed... wait for it... ZERO MODELS over one shooting phase and three turns of CC (the canoness killed 2 plague marines).

H.B.M.C. wrote:My point, Plexus, was to get passed this idiotic notion that the Codex was somehow 'broken'.


The Codex is broken. It's a bunch of fragments sitting on the floor, and all the King's horses and all the King's men can never put it together again.




IG codex @ 2009/04/16 16:38:27


Post by: Gwar!


Well No offence, but by your own sig, you seem to loose far more games than win.

Perhaps it isn't the codex that is rubbish...

Might be your dice


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 16:42:32


Post by: jp400


don_mondo wrote:Well, I grabbed the display copy at the store last night and drew up a list to test some of the new units/rules last night. Played against an Eldar army. Tried some stuff different from my usual, wanted to see if my thoughts on how it would tie together would work. Biggest difference is that I usually field lascannon/plasma gun in my line squads and I went heavy bolter/plasma guns instead.

My list, 1750:
HQ: Company Command, Vox, standard, autocannon, Astropath, Fleet Officer, Master of Ordnance

Elite: Psyker Battle Squad, four extra psykers, stock chimera

Troop: Platoon Command, vox, autocannon
IG squad, HB/PG, commissar, vox
IG squad, HB/PG
IG squad, HB/PG

Troop: Platoon Command, vox, autocannon
IG squad, HB/PG, commissar, vox
IG squad, HB/PG
IG squad, HB/PG

Heavy: Squadron, 2 x Griffons

Heavy: Leman Russ Executioner, Plasma sponsons

Heavy: Leman Russ Vanquisher, lascannon, Pask

DH Allies:
Inq Lord, mystics, etc
Callidus



For starters, drop the Autocannon in the CCS and add a Mortar. Fire it first and the MoO's shot will barrage off of it, thus makeing it hit 1,000% better then just shooting it.
Next Id drop the Callidus assassian. I loved them all back in the day, but they are in serious need of a overhaul cause their aint much use for em anymore. Once this happens, you can downgrad that Inq Lord to the regular Inq for the mystics and save some points. Then I would Drop Pask. He is a cool idea, but not worth it due to the high point cost of base tanks, and Drop the Autocannon out of the Command squads. (Waste of BS 4)

Max out the Griffion Squad..... then max out meltas in your commands.
Then use the leftover points in more troops.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 16:44:02


Post by: Agamemnon2


Gwar! wrote:Might be your dice

My dice? Oh please. The fact that I'm a terrible player should be self-evident, at least have the chutzpah to call a spade a spade.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 16:45:18


Post by: Gwar!


jp400 wrote:For starters, drop the Autocannon in the CCS and add a Mortar. Fire it first and the MoO's shot will barrage off of it, thus makeing it hit 1,000% better then just shooting it..
I am still not convinced this works. The multiple barrage rules are for multiple barrages of the same weapon. I am certain that this will be Clarified (since apparently RaW isn't good enough for some people but anyway)
Agamemnon2 wrote:
Gwar! wrote:Might be your dice

My dice? Oh please. The fact that I'm a terrible player should be self-evident, at least have the chutzpah to call a spade a spade.
I was actually being sincere, but if you want me to...

Being a bad player doesn't mean the codex is bad.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 16:49:43


Post by: Wildeyedjester


Gwar! wrote:

And are Executioners really that effective?



In the two games I have played with them they have gotten more than double their points back. This is a tank that excels against all comers (mobs, marines, termies, light vehicles, MC, Nobz), so I think it will find its place in a lot of lists. I like it with a naked russ, which I keep in cover to absorb shots and give the tanks a cover save.

I think the new codex is a move in the right direction and certainly made guard better. The 'so-called' vets are whining on this board about this being a lateral shift. It is only a lateral shift if you are not prepared to embrace using some new units and changing your old strategies. Thats a funny thing that - the need to use new units also makes you buy new units. Odd that GW would do that, eh? I wonder why that vendetta is so appealing on a power level? Its odd that its a brand new kit too, huh?

The codex is solid. The whining here will stop in a few months when you see guard lists on the top at a few tournaments and crow is eaten.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 16:53:39


Post by: Lord Solar Plexus


H.B.M.C. wrote:
My point, Plexus, was to get passed this idiotic notion that the Codex was somehow 'broken'.


Okay. If that is the case, then you either didn't get that point across or I missed it. Anyways, yes, Guard does not get that much stronger.


As far as being 'wrong' about the LB rule


No worries.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Not enough of a gain to make the unit broken, that's my point. Notice I was replying to Gwar, the one who said that it was 'broken'. Context helps Plexus. Look who I'm speaking to to work out why I'm saying what I'm saying.


The one who mentioned the LB rule in conjunction with doubling our killing power while being mobile was focusedfire. Even looking back, I don't see the connection between Gwar! and the initial LB debate; he only got involved later. He did say that the codex was broken; I then took his post on more firepower on the move - which is true - to be another train of thought. Also, your post I was mainly referring to (the 'oh wait, no' one) did not quote anyone else but seemed to be directed at the general public perousing this thread.

H.B.M.C. wrote:The use of camo netting is highly circumstantial and IMO rubbish.


I think you mean 'situational'. And it's no more situational than movement.


Yes, indeed I meant situational, 'scuse my French. Of course it is way more situational than moving because it relies on the terrain on a specific gaming table, which especially at GT's can be sparse. Moving however, while not always being a necessity, does not rely on such factors as much - and doesn't cost 20 points to boot. How many tanks are we talking about here? One? Three? More? Buying C-Nets for more than one or two tanks will get expensive fast. Buying it for only one is next to useless because the opposition can simply opt to shoot at another one, and then there's the issue of close combat. Of course, if anyone's metagame sports ideal terrain, the investment might turn out to be useful.

Oldgrue wrote:
@LSP :
I don't agree that the Russ got any better. It got more expensive in general and finally got the variants treadheads have been dying to field. The Variants are what is better than the standard Russ rather than the afterthought of a free heavy bolter.


Well...I payed 168 points for BatCan, LC, 2 HB, AV 14/12/10 and couldn't shoot all guns together, and could move 12", which I'd rather not.

Now I pay 17 points more, gain 1 pip of side armour, can shoot all those guns, and can move a little less, probably 9-10", and get the option to field more than 3. I personally believe that even LB alone would well be worth that point increase. YMMV.

All the people who do not use hull LC's but run naked Russes pay precisely 5 points more, gain AV13 and can fire both guns while losing some speed. They do have inbuilt smokes, do they? In that case, it melts down to a measly increase of 2 points...


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 16:54:14


Post by: AlfredTheStrange


Bodichi wrote:I have read over 72 of these pages ( I skipped 5 that I didn't care for). Would some one be so kind as to enlighten be as to a few questons on HQ's

1.Can a CCS out fit the 4 guards mens as it does currently (ie with 4 special weapons, I know all the other wierd abilities?)
2.How many orders can that CCS send out a turn? is it a function of the squads in range or is it limited by the officer?
3.Is summary execution gone?
4.Do commisars take up elite or HQ slots (sionce they are no longer IC's?

Thank you and I am sorry if these questions have already been answered.

I am actually happy to see that commisars now come standard with BP's and that conscripts are stil 4 points and 20-50!


1.yes
2. 2 to any infantry unit within 12inches. you didint ask but ill tell you anyways PCS issue 1 order to infantry units within 6 inches
3.no still there
4. commissars are now upgrades for squads, so they dont take up any org chart.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 17:04:27


Post by: Gwar!


Sadly you cannot stick Commissars with conscript squads unless it is a Lord Commissar (who is an IC and HQ slot), which is a shame because they would make excellent 50 man LD9 Stubborn with a reroll tarpit, but instead we must use a slightly more expensive excellent 50 man LD10 Stubborn with a reroll tarpit


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 17:07:23


Post by: AlfredTheStrange


Agamemnon2 wrote:
don_mondo wrote:Well, I grabbed the display copy at the store last night and drew up a list to test some of the new units/rules last night.


I did the same today. Abject failure. Orders failed to make any difference, mobbing up squads proved to be a hindrance, none of the new units (I tried Griffon, Medusa, Veterans and Penal Legion) did anything noteworthy at all. 210 points of Ogryns, babysitted by a 76 point Canoness killed... wait for it... ZERO MODELS over one shooting phase and three turns of CC (the canoness killed 2 plague marines).

H.B.M.C. wrote:My point, Plexus, was to get passed this idiotic notion that the Codex was somehow 'broken'.

The Codex is broken. It's a bunch of fragments sitting on the floor, and all the King's horses and all the King's men can never put it together again.


realy? i took a squadron of 2 medusas last night i loved them, they blew up alot of marines. I dont think orders will be game breakers just a little sometin sometin for guard squads. I don't think we can make any calls on "brokeness" either way till its been out for a while.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 17:18:28


Post by: Agamemnon2


Gwar! wrote:Being a bad player doesn't mean the codex is bad.

It's all anecdotal anyway. I'd need to play another 45-50 games to see if my losing trend with 5E is as noticeable as with the old book.

AlfredTheStrange wrote:realy? i took a squadron of 2 medusas last night i loved them, they blew up alot of marines. I dont think orders will be game breakers just a little sometin sometin for guard squads. I don't think we can make any calls on "brokeness" either way till its been out for a while.

I spent the entire game firing at an enemy Predator with the new AP1 shells, I only succeeded in shaking it on one turn, stunning it on another. The rest of the time, it scattered harmlessly.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 17:21:44


Post by: ph34r


focusedfire wrote:@Ph34r- A S8 shot is never a waste against a tank.

Then why not just take a 15 point missile launcher somewhere, instead of dedicating your 170 point tank to the job? Not to mention the fact that when you miss (2/3 of the time) and scatter more than 3" (11/12 of the time) you are not going to hit the tank.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 17:34:41


Post by: jp400


"I spent the entire game firing at an enemy Predator with the new AP1 shells, I only succeeded in shaking it on one turn, stunning it on another. The rest of the time, it scattered...."


Um.... Correct me if Im wrong, I may be in this case.... but based of this:

Medusa Siege Cannon:
Ordnance 1, Large Blast

Bastion Breacher Shell:
Heavy 1, Blast

Wouldnt this suggest that the BBS upgrade fires like a normal weapon Aka Hit/miss? Cause its no longer Ordnance or Barrage.
I think you may have played it wrong.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 17:36:11


Post by: Raxmei


jp400 wrote:Wouldnt this suggest that the BBS upgrade fires like a normal weapon Aka Hit/miss? Cause its no longer Ordnance or Barrage.
I think you may have played it wrong.
Pick up your Fifth edition rulebook and look up the rules for blast weapons. He played it right.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 17:37:47


Post by: jp400


Ah, dont have a copy handy Atm cause im at my workplace and its been ages since I played with anything "blast" so the rules are fuzzy at best in my mind. lol.



IG codex @ 2009/04/16 17:54:45


Post by: Raxmei


Here's something funny about the vox caster. It gives a reroll if both the officer's command squad and the squad he's issuing an order to have a model with a vox caster. Officers can issue orders to their own unit. If the officer's command squad has a vox caster and the unit he's issuing the order to is his own command squad, then the officer's command squad and the unit he is issuing an order to both have a model with a vox caster. The officer receives a reroll for using a radio to tell himself to do something. I think.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 17:56:36


Post by: Shep


I've got to step in here and address people's concerns that the IG did not gain in power level. If you are truly concerned I suggest you schedule a game and test out your ideas, rather than worry about theoryhammering.

I just played a 1750 competitive game against a top tier ork build... batrep here

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/236615.page

The ork list was one that I designed for the Vegas GT. It got me 81 battle points, and helped me get a 20-0 massacre on Neil Cauley. If you don't know who Neil is... he's good.

the ork list was then tweaked to introduce TL rokkit deffkoptas with buzzsaws, which are literally IG kryptonite.

The IG list (that is FAR from tuned) managed a 3-0 objective win.

Go out and play some games, the IG codex is way more fun, and way more powerful.

And thanks don mondo for sharing your mini batrep.




IG codex @ 2009/04/16 18:33:14


Post by: Agamemnon2


jp400 wrote:Ah, dont have a copy handy Atm cause im at my workplace and its been ages since I played with anything "blast" so the rules are fuzzy at best in my mind. lol.


What I did do wrong was not count the +1 to vehicle damage results from having an AP1 weapon, as normal IG doesn't really have much of them, aside from meltaguns whuch I do not use.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 18:34:16


Post by: IntoTheRain


I have to say that as far back as I can remember that people have been using the 'afraid of change' line, and it has never once proven true.

From Codex Eldar (where people tried to say that everything, not just harlies and falcons were viable) to Codex Dark Angels (where people said that the list was somehow viable even though everyone knew it couldn't pack the number of necessary heavy weapons to compete) to Codex Chaos (lashes much?) to Codex Space Marines (where units were hideously overcosted, but a select few kept insisting they were great) Orks being the sole exception since it was almost universally considered insane codex.

Now here we are again with the vets saying that the only amazing new units are the Vendetta and the neo-Fear of the Darkness, and these random players insisting that everything is fine and that they are afraid of change, unable to adapt, and need to use tactics.

Is the new codex more dynamic than the previous Guard codex? Definitely. Is it on the level of any of the top tier armies now? No.

Shep, will you do a game (or 3) against a Nob Biker list? The ork list you posted feels a little anemic on anti tank to me, and isn't really my style (but thats just a personal opinion, it is obviously well thought out if you took it to Vegas) I also want to see lash against Guardsmen blobs.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 18:59:40


Post by: Shep


IntoTheRain wrote: Shep, will you do a game (or 3) against a Nob Biker list?


Sure thing. The current IG builds that I think are the best 'all comers' don't really match up all that well against nob bikers. Some IG players are going to stick to strength 8-10 ordnance. If they do that AND are mechanized (which I'm not) they can win against nob bikers as well as any lash list can. My list, as is, would need some good dice, and the right mission I'm guessing. But I'll have KevinNash dust off the biker list and I'll give it a shot.

IntoTheRain wrote:The ork list you posted feels a little anemic on anti tank to me, and isn't really my style (but thats just a personal opinion, it is obviously well thought out if you took it to Vegas)


The ork list had lots of anti-tank. Had 30 deffguns, 3 twin linked-rokkits hitting side armor, nine strength 10 power klaws, 3 strength 8/9 power klaws and three strength 6/7 buzzsaws. I lost every vehicle in my army (11 out of 13) except one valkyrie and the colossus.

IntoTheRain wrote:I also want to see lash against Guardsmen blobs.


A mistake that I was making right when i first started playing IG games with the new rules was to build platoons with the intention of blobbing every game. I thought I'd stretch the value of the commissar and a vox by doing that.

It took about 2 games for me to figure out that blobbing is only for KP games, and that the commissar, while fun, isn't a necessary component. My newest list has 4 line suads in one platoon and 2 line squads that ride in valks in objective games but blob on the ground in KP. I just blob 20 max, and end up with 13 KP. For mech that is perfectly acceptable, and I don't really care if you actually move a demon prince within 24" of one of my line squads in ANY mission. I'll trade 75 points for a demon prince any day of the week (and he is meat if he got within 24" of a line squad) or one kill point for one kill point.

Guard is mainly mechanized, and lash doesn't like mechanized. Lash likes fighting orks. Or armies that are forced to drive their vehicles into obliterator deep strikes.

I posted how I think the guard army is going to matchup against everyone in this thread, about halfway down page 1.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/236412.page

No one has really gone after my opinions about it...

I can boil it all down to this. Some armies (and really every codex with the right build) can get themselves a favorable matchup against IG.

What I really like about what IG is doing, is its really taking it to lash chaos (which I believe to be the most powerful tourney list at 1750) and horde orks (which are prolific and are currently terrorizing local tables and tourney tables)

Well played space marines have an advantage over IG, which I don't have a problem with, while space marine opponents are abundant, well played ones are much, much more rare. And i think regular SM need someone to come in and push down horde orks and lash, so that they can step in a bit.

Lash is going to have to adjust (add some more CC, berserkers, lesser demons) and orks are going to have to adjust. Focus more on outflanking, and possibly KFFed transportation. This lets other armies that are struggling in the meta pop up.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 20:14:19


Post by: JohnHwangDD


focusedfire wrote:@ JohnhwangDD-
1)The lumbering behemoth rule actually allows your tanks to be mobile whilst still delivering about double the Tank killing/MEQ killing/Monsterous creature killing shots a turn.

As an Eldar player, I'm pretty sure you know exactly how much of a speed increase the guard have been given and how much this codex is going to change the metagame.

55 pt transports are expensive. Fully kitted warfish are 120 pts


2There is nothing preventing you from running an all drop army in this dex if your willing to run the valk,

3)The psychic choir when combined with a chimera and squadrons of ordinace equals a lot of forced leadership tests. I don't look at it from the perspective of one unit but the combinations.

4)I play Tau. I have absolutely no fear of the guard drop troop doctrine list or any other list from the current codex. I've already seen three builds that are going to take almost everything that I have just to keep up in this new book.

1. The Lumbering Behemoth simply lets you fire the Heavy Bolter (or Lascannon, if you paid the extra 15!!! pts) at the same target as the pie plate (and note the 36" / 48" / 72" range). If you bought a Plasma Cannon sponson (for 40 pts), you can fire that along with the pie plate. This is nowhere near doubling the firepower on the move.

"Lumbering" is a true misnomer. What it really should be called is "Static Firebase", because that is what it is designed for. Exterminator can fire hull & sponsons & PMHS along with turret gun. Demolisher can fire Demolisher with Lascannon & Plasma Cannons for massed AP2 goodness. But this is only when sitting still. And sponson costs went up big time. Guard pay +20 pts for HB sponsons. That is a *LOT* of points for HBs that only good sitting still on one of the few platforms that is good moving forward.

All told, Russes move 6" and fire the main gun, every turn. But now, they get to also fire the HB. Big freakin' deal.

As an Eldar player, I see that the Guard have far less mobility than before. Guard was basically designed as a pure static gunline. Their transports and tanks are still optimized for static play, rather than a slow "rolling thunder" / steamroller play style.

As far as the metagame goes, Guard take a big step backwards in overall utility. Right now, Guard can get their crappy little dudes anywhere on the battlefield, due to mass Infiltrate or mass Deep Strike. That's gone. For the same points, new Guard are far slower and less mobile.

55-pt transports are expensive when you're talking T3 Sv5+ Guardsmen, compared to 35-pt transports for WS4 S4 T4 Sv3+ Marines. As I said in the Tau thread, Fish are grossly overpriced in the current environment. Unless Robin does the Tau, in which case they are only slightly overpriced, and will drop from 120 pts down to 100-105 pts instead of 75-80 pts.


2. Based on your suggestion, I don't think you understand how "all drop" Guard currently works, or would "work". Currently, for roughly 90-odd pts, I can place a squad of Guardsmen anywhere on the board. I can do this for 3 Veteran squads, 3 Command squads, and 6 Infantry squads. And this isn't vulnerable to being shot down by enemy fire. In the new version, I have a maximum of 3 locations I can affect, a maximum of 24" from their current locations, paying 100+ pts for each opportunity, and subject to Squadron vulnerabilities if I want to so this for more than 3 units, or if I want to include Hellhound / Sentinel units. IMO, the Valkyrie assault is pure fail compared to the current Drop Troops Doctrine. It is unquestionably weaker and riskier.

3. The psychic choir is great against other GEQs, I'll give you that. How many GEQs to you typically face? I think it's a novelty that would be fun to model (see previous posts), but not tactically strong. For essentially the same points as a Choir and AV12/10/10 Chimera, I can simply add a AV14/13/11 Demolisher and drop another S10 AP2 pie. Why screw around?

4. I find that hard to believe, but hey, OK.
____

Personally, I think my default build will be something like:

Command w/ Chimera (HB)

no Elites

Mech /Gunline Platoon
- HQ w/ Chimera (AC)
- 2x ML/Plas
- 2x 3 ML
- 2x 3 Melta in Chimera (AC)
Veterans

Hellhound
Hellhound
Sentinel

2 Demolishers
Demolisher (or 2 Russes) - hard to decide
2 Basilisk


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 20:24:01


Post by: Dave47


The resurgence of this thread seems to have a lot to do with some people claiming a few pages back that IG players who were upset at the new Codex shouldn't be upset, because the new Codex is good. This is probably true. I'm certain that the new Codex will be an improvement. But I think it's very reasonable to be upset about several significant things:

WYSIWYG problems and discontinued options: Separate HW teams, Veterans with pistols, Sergeants with rifles, etc. These are all mindbogglingly frustrating because of how simple they would be to fix, and how small an impact they would have on the game.

The Codex is bi-polar: This is my biggest complaint. On one hand, there seems to be a terror of making IG strong or synergistic, as visible in the rules for SW Squads or Ogryns. But, on the other hand, you have some truly overpowered units, such as Vendettas. And at the end of the day, unreliable as orders may be, they still hold the potential to let Imperial Guard:
-Shoot more accurately than space marines. (Twin linked BS 3 > BS 4)
-Outrun Eldar. (We may not have Fleet, but we get to roll 3D6 and pick the highest.)
-Get a 2+ Cover save vs. shooting.
-Rally in situations where almost no unit can rally. ("Below 1/2 strength win enemies within 6"? NO PROBLEM!" )

In the end, I think the new Codex will serve as an effective "buff" to the Imperial Guard. But it's not the Codex that I, and many other IG players, wanted. Overpowered units can be almost as frustrating as underpowered units. I'd trade out Vendettas and Psychic Choirs in a heartbeat for a more balanced "core" list.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 20:29:12


Post by: BoxANT


JohnHwangDD wrote:[

3. The psychic choir is great against other GEQs, I'll give you that. How many GEQs to you typically face? I think it's a novelty that would be fun to model (see previous posts), but not tactically strong. For essentially the same points as a Choir and AV12/10/10 Chimera, I can simply add a AV14/13/11 Demolisher and drop another S10 AP2 pie. Why screw around?



I think you are selling this squad short.

Being able to drop a units Leadership after causing 25% shooting losses is extremely powerful. Being able to pin a squad when they're right in front of our lines is going to be brutal.

Even -6 (80ts) is effective enough to make a Ld10 squad fail regularly, and if they're fearless S6 wounds MEQ on a 2+ (and will half the time ignore MEQ armor, 1/3 the time ignore FNP).

We should take them in addition to our 3 heavies.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 21:14:52


Post by: Kujo


I'm going to agree with BoxANT on the psychic choir. I play against an ork player regularly and get it handed to me by nob bikers quite regularly. That first turn turbo boost makes them a tough nut to kill, even with a whole army shooting at them. Now, I can just make them Ld 2, inflict 25 percent casualties instead of wiping them out, and either pin them or run them off the board.

The choir takes the bite out of those lists that rely on one juggernaught unit to steamroll my whole army.


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 21:31:36


Post by: H.B.M.C.


focusedfire wrote:I know its sad that a gun that was useless on the tank before is now able to function anytime that you can fired the Ordinance. That must be a terrible burden to bear.




Now who's trolling...


IG codex @ 2009/04/16 21:38:41


Post by: Frazzled


Gents I am closing this thread at this point. WE're moving into the everyone has a copy stage. Absent a new rumor item, you are free to post further items in discussions, tactics, or lists.