I've used a 50 conscript unit + Commissar as a screen / meatshield for IG.

String them out in a broad single or double line across your deployment zone (terrain permitting) & your opponenet has to make a LD test to reach the unit beyond it.

My basic battle line is to have 50 conscripts in front of my 50 man Cadian platoon w/ heavy bolters, then my 2nd troops choice 50 Valhallans with mortars (heavy weapopn squads to taste, idealy on raised terrain firing over the mass of grunts).

That way the conscripts soak up a fair degree of fire, the Cadians arent getting shot at all the time & the Valhallans can keep a sustained barrage or mortar fire going for as long as possible.

ph34r wrote:Shumhammer 40,000 is a magical place.

Nice!

@ ph34r
you have been siggied!

Dhugs wrote:I've used a 50 conscript unit + Commissar as a screen / meatshield for IG.

String them out in a broad single or double line across your deployment zone (terrain permitting) & your opponenet has to make a LD test to reach the unit beyond it.

that would have worked in 4th edition but the current one doesn't have targetting priority rules.

Kungfuhustler wrote:
the real new cover has been sighted!

lol, you're about 2 weeks too late for the IG cover thread/joke party. it was fun while it lasted...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/232092.page



Yesterday I fielded a 2000pt IG army using the rumors/rules posted here by middle and on warseer collated by the dude. unfortunately due to time constraints and less than optimal planning, we didn't get too many turns in (only 3). in fact, due to bad reserve rolls despite an astropath advisor, my stormtroopers (2 squads of 10) never made it into the game. lumbering behemoth was usefull as i did end up moving one of my russes. the orders were quite useful but i only remembered them for ONE TURN! since they're new, i forgot about them until i had already fired most of my worthwhile units. not having a vox in heavy weapons teams was quite a detriment as 2 of 3 of mine failed their ld8 morale roles needed. depending on the rules for creed/kell, they might be worth the approx 150 point sink. does kell make all units who recieve the command squads orders test on the officers ld?

I want to defend some of the statements made by Shuma, as I agree with them. I think 10 points might be an appropriate cost for power weapons on Guard Sergeants.

My reasoning:

In the previous edition, 10 points for a power weapon would never be worth it on a Sergeant, and 5 wouldn't be either, even if it were legal, because there is no way a squad of guard could stand up in combat long enough for the power weapon to be effective. 5 point power weapons were doubly bad for officers, because they were independent characters, and wouldn't last in combat even if they were in squads larger than 5.

In the current rumored codex, anyone who pays 10 points for a power weapon on a Sergeant in a 10 man squad is making a bad list. There are a lot of places in a Guard army that can hold special weapons, and 10 points is 1 or 2 of those.

However, and herein lies the rub, Guard now have the option of taking effectively larger squads due to combining squads in a platoon. Imagine 20-40 Guardsmen, with a commissar leading them. That's 30-50 points to get all your leaders power weapons. This squad will, in all probability, not break due to the influence of the Commissar.

Let's take 30 Guardsmen +1 Commissar. At this point, you don't have a single 10 point power weapon on one guy in a 10 man squad, you have four 10 point power weapons in a 31 man stubborn squad. 12 WS3, S3, I3 power weapon attacks per turn, AKA slightly less than 2 dead MEQs/turn of combat, in addition to what the rest of the squad can do. Furthermore, as the squad fights, it looses hardly any combat ability.

This squad is a sizable fraction of points that could simply be spent on more guns, the traditional, and reliable approach. However, this is 5th edition. Objectives matter. This squad can be issued the RUN! order to get where it needs to go. It can be issued the FRFSRF! order to deal out wounds to whoever is nearby. It WILL be assaulted, and in that case, I think it is worth 10 points per power weapon (40 points) to substantially increase the kill potential of the squad.

It's certainly not a no-brainer choice. I think arguments can be made for not taking the power weapons, but in this type of squad pattern (the only type of squad I'd consider taking power weapons for) 5 points is probably too cheap.

The codex authors basically gave us a platform for taking power weapons, and upped their cost. I find this preferable to cheap, unusable power weapons.

wouldn't this whole 5 or 10pt discussion be better suited to... i dunno... the DISCUSSION forum? you're not discussing whether or not the 10pt power sword is either correct news or a rumor, just debating it's utility verses the previous cost. i enjoy limited discussions on the merits of new codexes but the arguements for both sides are now just going in circles. i'd prefer not to read another 5 pages regarding 10pt power swords in addition to the multiple pages on 16pt stormtroopers worthiness, 40pt ogryn cost, etc.

So only one character failed to come back from the 2ed codex...my favorite cheapest special character in the game. The ratling sniper, Rumpstart i think was his name...i liked that little guy...

H.B.M.C. wrote:Focued, it's been said a dozen times by a dozen different people. I shouldn't have to repeat it when you can just back track over pages 18 and 19 and see what people said so far. Read what Polonius said, what I said and what others said. It's not hard.

AAwww, Its cute when you resort to childish mispelling of a name in a vague attempt at an insult. You know thats your tell, don't you? That whenever someone is politely and quietly proving you wrong, you resort to little slurs and attempts to belittle them.

This time it backfired on you, because I was quietly reading, as your attempt at a patronizing tone suggest I should. I was reading as you argued, (I'm paraphrasing here) that weapon effectiveness should not effect the cost and that taking into account that power gamers might/will try to exploit power combos as part of your game design is poor way to design.

Go back and read what you typed and think about how illogical your argument sounds. I'm not trying to pick a fight here. I'm just pointing out that what you were saying makes you look as if you might not be the most logical person. I know that you get into heated arguments with certain posters on this forum that results in a sometimes surly tone. I feel that this time you let it get to you where you made an argument that wasn't one of your better ones. You often have really good, if somewhat harsh or dour,logical assesments. I'm just politely disagreeing with this one because it is neither good or logical.

Edit for added sentence

Shumhammer 40,000 is a magical place.

Shumahammer is a place where people don't cry on the internet because they don't get to have a special crutch to lean on any more, a crutch that they didn't use anyway because it's pointless to walk around with. It's a place where things are costed reasonably and people understand that game balance revolves around creating a game environment where things are equal, not where things are "what you want to see". Shumahammer is a place where the magical idea of a balanced game environment means that things like power weapons will never see play in guard armies because they are a stupid upgrade to cheap numerous ablative squads that likely exist as a speed bump and in which the weapon itself has no realistic use at any point value. Shumahammer is a game where 25 point sentinels are rediculous, the vendetta is 50 points too cheap, ogryn are unreasonable at 40 points a pop and a deep striking suicide squad with tri firing ap3 lasguns and rerollable deep strikes is worth the cost of a basic tactical marine.

Shumahammer is a place where people with reasonable opinions are untainted by the QQ of several years of poor guard performance that causes posters to try and overbalance the game then state that they would "be happy" if they were considered the new over powered kiddie build army.

Its a place where the imperial guard are not a close combat force and in which people read some of the non IG centric novels. It's a place where my marines don't get to single handedly kill fifty guardsman in close combat despite it also being in the fluff.


Its a place where you all belong, yet none of you will ever be.

So... Shumahammer is a fantasyland!

AlexCage wrote:So... Shumahammer is a fantasyland!

Its a land where people both want a balanced version of 40k and understand how that is actually achieved. So yeah, not even the game designers live there. It basically is a fantasy land.

In no way would cheap power weapons make IG an assault army. You are taking the smallest bit of options to an illogical extreme. By your same logic marine power weapons should cost 40 points, but they don't for a reason.
Power Weapons != assault army, shooty army != never need to fight assault

Anyway, since ogryns are effectively dead, are RR enough to form a counter charge? Even 50 guardsmen won't kill much, not dying doesn't count for much when the enemy is still contesting an objective.

focusedfire wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Focued, it's been said a dozen times by a dozen different people. I shouldn't have to repeat it when you can just back track over pages 18 and 19 and see what people said so far. Read what Polonius said, what I said and what others said. It's not hard.

AAwww, Its cute when you resort to childish mispelling of a name in a vague attempt at an insult. You know thats your tell, don't you? That whenever someone is politely and quietly proving you wrong, you resort to little slurs and attempts to belittle someone.

Odds are very good that this is a simple misspelling. HBMC in particular has a tendancy towards dropping letters.

Believe me, if he wants to mock your name, it won't be nearly so subtle.

This time it backfired on you, because I was quietly reading, as your attempt at a patronizing tone suggest I should. I was reading as you argued, (I'm paraphrasing here) that weapon effectiveness should not effect the cost and that taking into account that power gamers might/will try to exploit power combos as part of your game design is poor way to design.

Go back and read what you typed and think about how illogical your argument sounds. I'm not trying to pick a fight here. I'm just point out that what you were saying makes you look as if you might not be the most logical person. I know that you get into heated arguments with certain posters on this forum that results in a sometimes surly tone. I feel that this time you let it get to you where you made an argument that wasn't one of your better ones. You often have really good, if somewhat harsh or dour, assesments. I'm just politely disagreeing with this one.

The point is simple: if the situation is such that a general-use item (a power weapon) can be combined with a specific-use item (a special character's rules) in such a way as to significantly boost the power of the general-use item, then the reasonable game-design decision is to cost that factor into the specific-use item, NOT the general-use item.

If, as GW seems to have done here and as you seem to support, you price a specific use into a general-use item, all you do is turn the general-use item into a specific-use item - it is overpriced in every situation where the power-multiplying special-use item isn't taken/available.

And this, of course, completely neglects whether any of the IG special rules are such that a power weapon is ever worth 10 pts on a WS 3, S3, T3, I3, W1 model.

Does anyone else think that Knight Commander Pask+Demolisher is a good answer for Nob Bikers?

Even if you only get 3 hits against a Nob Biker, you ignore their cover, their FNP, and their armor save, so all they have left is a 5+ invul, you'll kill around 2 Bikers.

And that's pretty good, imho.

In no way would cheap power weapons make IG an assault army. You are taking the smallest bit of options to an illogical extreme. By your same logic marine power weapons should cost 40 points, but they don't for a reason.
Power Weapons != assault army, shooty army != never need to fight assault

No, I'm stating that the upgrade given the fact that it's little more than a one in three chance of killing a marine before your squad is rolled over should be worth that effect. A regular marines power sword has a one in two chance of killing a marine and costs three times as much. Statistically it should be in the ~8 point range as an upgrade, not 5 and not 10. It's my general preference when you run into a situation like this that the item should cost more in order to prevent codex creep.

No power weapon cost could make the guard an assault army. They would have to be unfairly cheap and overeffective to see use because utilizing them goes against the actual function of the guard force.

Anyway, since ogryns are effectively dead, are RR enough to form a counter charge? Even 50 guardsmen won't kill much, not dying doesn't count for much when the enemy is still contesting an objective.

Ogryns weren't dead before? Counter charging isn't taking an objective, that finishing up after your army shoots the objective to death. RR's will be pretty good at that considering their function as a one turn glass hammer.

Gestalt wrote:Anyway, since ogryns are effectively dead, are RR enough to form a counter charge? Even 50 guardsmen won't kill much, not dying doesn't count for much when the enemy is still contesting an objective.

Rough riders are still useful, although 5e made them more difficult to use (harder to hide). If you can get Furious Charge going in there, even better. If they were riding low-slung lizards, instead of tall horses, you could hide them behind Chimerae.

For counter-assault purposes, if you're not comfortable relying on pure firepower to clear an objective, consider Grey Knight Terminators. No more expensive than Ogryn, but far more effective for the necessary task of removing those hard-to-kill units from your objectives. But for me, I'm going to stick with guns. PHQs still carry around 4 specials, which is a nice concentrated burst of flamer/melta loving. (Save your plasma guns for the CHQ, at BS 4.)

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Even if you only get 3 hits against a Nob Biker, you ignore their cover,

Whoa, what? Why do you ignore their cover, exactly? I don't recall seeing any other Leman than the Nova that ignores cover...

Vladsimpaler wrote:Does anyone else think that Knight Commander Pask+Demolisher is a good answer for Nob Bikers?

Even if you only get 3 hits against a Nob Biker, you ignore their cover, their FNP, and their armor save, so all they have left is a 5+ invul, you'll kill around 2 Bikers.

And that's pretty good, imho.

I would probably take vendettas over the demolisher for that. ~six twin linked lascanons are going to do the same job but won't be as vulnerable given their speed and scout ability. They will be able to much better kite the bikers and use terrain to their advantage.

ShumaGorath wrote:

I would probably take vendettas over the demolisher for that. ~six twin linked lascanons are going to do the same job but won't be as vulnerable given their speed and scout ability. They will be able to much better kite the bikers and use terrain to their advantage.

You see, what pisses me off about this Codex is not the fact that whenever you suggest a strong unit someone counters and says the Vendetta serves the same purpose, but better. But the fact that they're friggin' RIGHT.

If Vendettas become our Nob Bikers then I'm filling my FA slots with Sentinels and Hellhounds just to protest.



... Sometimes I think I LIKE losing...

ShumaGorath wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:Does anyone else think that Knight Commander Pask+Demolisher is a good answer for Nob Bikers?

Even if you only get 3 hits against a Nob Biker, you ignore their cover, their FNP, and their armor save, so all they have left is a 5+ invul, you'll kill around 2 Bikers.

And that's pretty good, imho.

I would probably take vendettas over the demolisher for that. ~six twin linked lascanons are going to do the same job but won't be as vulnerable given their speed and scout ability. They will be able to much better kite the bikers and use terrain to their advantage.

Not really.

6 T-l'd shots, 4.5 hits, 3.75 wounds. One is allocated to the Warboss (won't be insta-killing him with S9). In a non-turbo round, you'll likely vape 1 (1.37) Nob (4+ cover), with a 50% shot at wounding the Warboss. In a turbo round, you may vape one Nob (0.92), with a 33% chance of wounding the warboss.

"Fire on my target" and special weapons squads (melta or demo charges) seems like the most cost-effective approach to dealing with Nob Bikers, at least in non-KP missions.

Vendettas are no faster than a Leman Russ because they have to move 6" max to shoot. Either way you won't be kiting bikers anyway, if they are out of charge range they would be boosting anyway.

Which leads to what I wanted about counter-charge. I was referring more to what you use to help get the bikers off your objective on your side that the bikers charged. Or bloodcrushers, ect.

Janthkin wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:Does anyone else think that Knight Commander Pask+Demolisher is a good answer for Nob Bikers?

Even if you only get 3 hits against a Nob Biker, you ignore their cover, their FNP, and their armor save, so all they have left is a 5+ invul, you'll kill around 2 Bikers.

And that's pretty good, imho.

I would probably take vendettas over the demolisher for that. ~six twin linked lascanons are going to do the same job but won't be as vulnerable given their speed and scout ability. They will be able to much better kite the bikers and use terrain to their advantage.

Not really.

6 T-l'd shots, 4.5 hits, 3.75 wounds. One is allocated to the Warboss (won't be insta-killing him with S9). In a non-turbo round, you'll likely vape 1 (1.37) Nob (4+ cover), with a 50% shot at wounding the Warboss. In a turbo round, you may vape one Nob (0.92), with a 33% chance of wounding the warboss.

"Fire on my target" and special weapons squads (melta or demo charges) seems like the most cost-effective approach to dealing with Nob Bikers, at least in non-KP missions.

If they space the bikes right the demolisher would see similar results (4.5 hits with a large blast is pretty good on a 2" coherency biker squad, those models are huge). I think maxing battlecanons is going to be the key here for IG against bikers. The battlecanon doesn't kill the warboss, but for the seven hundred point cost of a bike squad you can have 5 battlecanon spewing russes. Five battlecannons averaging 4 hits per shot ~16 hits, ~14 wounds, ~5 wounds even through turbo boosting. In one round of shooting they will kill a full half of the squad.

@ Janthkin- First,What I'm getting at is that a powersword should never be considered a general use item. Especially for the shooting themed IG.
My stance is that if it were general use it wouldn't be a special equipment upgrade.


Second, With the way everyone is howling about having to take special upgrade chatcters then it would only compound the matter by making them more expensive and making you pay for something that you may not use.
This has been one of HBMC primarary rants about costing in the past. That you shouldn't have to pay for something that you aren't necessarilly going to use.
Now, I find him arguing against what he proposed.

The way its set up now, You get the Special character at a decent price and only those that wish to use the special rule to its max effectiveness have to pay for it through buying the weapons.

Other players aren't forced to eat the cost of the power combo and each player gets to determine the level of expenditure and commitment to that particular combo, as opposed to it being force fed to the whole army through an overpriced character.


Third, This way of doing it allows you to only have to pay for the ability on the units that will be enhanced. So, Yeah I find 10pts fair for what will be a S4 I4 4 power weapon attacks on the assault a fair price. Its also flexible and leaves a lot of how many points your going to use up to the player.

Now, yes, it is overpriced if your not using the special ability. This is why Orders and these New/Old special characters replaced Doctrines. Also, doesn't the priest convey something like Furous Assault on the unit if he is included? Haven't heard for sure in the new codex yet.


BTW Thank you for your very civil post.


Edit spelling

I agree, the basic LRBT is still going to be the workhorse of the Guard. It is still some of the best 150pts you can spend in the game.

However, I still think IG will be in need of an ap2 killer. If only to keep termies from getting too aggressive with your gunlines.

There is really two ways to go imo, cheap LRDemo 165, or all out with a Executioner with plasmasponsons.


Then just add a 50man unit of guardsmen lead by a commissar, place them spread out around your tanks, and have some fun

ShumaGorath wrote:

Shumhammer 40,000 is a magical place.

Shumahammer is a place where people don't cry on the internet because they don't get to have a special crutch to lean on any more, a crutch that they didn't use anyway because it's pointless to walk around with. It's a place where things are costed reasonably and people understand that game balance revolves around creating a game environment where things are equal, not where things are "what you want to see". Shumahammer is a place where the magical idea of a balanced game environment means that things like power weapons will never see play in guard armies because they are a stupid upgrade to cheap numerous ablative squads that likely exist as a speed bump and in which the weapon itself has no realistic use at any point value. Shumahammer is a game where 25 point sentinels are rediculous, the vendetta is 50 points too cheap, ogryn are unreasonable at 40 points a pop and a deep striking suicide squad with tri firing ap3 lasguns and rerollable deep strikes is worth the cost of a basic tactical marine.

Shumahammer is a place where people with reasonable opinions are untainted by the QQ of several years of poor guard performance that causes posters to try and overbalance the game then state that they would "be happy" if they were considered the new over powered kiddie build army.

Its a place where the imperial guard are not a close combat force and in which people read some of the non IG centric novels. It's a place where my marines don't get to single handedly kill fifty guardsman in close combat despite it also being in the fluff.


Its a place where you all belong, yet none of you will ever be.

does gorath workshop charge for shumahammer models based on points cost or how expensive/difficult the model is to actually produce?

ShumaGorath wrote:
If they space the bikes right the demolisher would see similar results (4.5 hits with a large blast is pretty good on a 2" coherency biker squad, those models are huge). I think maxing battlecanons is going to be the key here for IG against bikers. The battlecanon doesn't kill the warboss, but for the seven hundred point cost of a bike squad you can have 5 battlecanon spewing russes. Five battlecannons averaging 4 hits per shot ~16 hits, ~14 wounds, ~5 wounds even through turbo boosting. In one round of shooting they will kill a full half of the squad.

This is one of the few benefits I see with the squadron rules that I haven't seen anyone mention (although I haven't necessarily read the entire thread). Since 3 lrbt tanks are one squad, the biker player will only be able to allocate one wound to the warboss and the rest go into the squad. This I think will also help when firing at large units and bunched up squads in cover because they won't be able to remove models to reduce the effectiveness of subsequent shots from the same squad.

warboss wrote:does gorath workshop charge for shumahammer models based on points cost or how expensive/difficult the model is to actually produce?

If it's the latter Shumahammer sounds like the best game ever.

does gorath workshop charge for shumahammer models based on points cost or how expensive/difficult the model is to actually produce?

Yes and no. That would make it unfair to ork players who would have to spend upwards of 100% more for an army. Its a combination of the general cost of the model and the point value of the model itself. That way an ork squad box is the same as a tac squad box yet costs the same (Despite orks having almost twice as many models). Yet both a trukk and a rhino are the same price.

That way no matter the army you chose to enter you're looking at a similar expenditure by the end of it. No more "cheap" or "expensive" armies. As a balancing feature smaller squadie boxes like tac squads would likely have more bitz for conversion.

focusedfire wrote:@ Janthkin- First,What I'm getting at is that a powersword should never be considered a general use item. Especially for the shooting themed IG.
My stance is that if it were general use it wouldn't be a special equipment upgrade.

Let's define terms:
"general use" - an item/rule you have access to, without having to purchase a special item first. You don't have to buy a special character in order to take a power weapon.

Second, With the way everyone is howling about having to take special upgrade chatcters then it would only compound the matter by making them more expensive and making you pay for something that you may not use.
This has been one of HBMC primarary rants about costing in the past. That you shouldn't have to pay for something that you aren't necessarilly going to use.
Now, I find him arguing against what he proposed.

Then you have been misunderstanding his point for a very long time. HBMC hates the concept of "unlockable" rules, as implemented via special characters. (E.g., if you want to field a Deathwing army, you just have to buy this special character to do it!) For that matter, so do I.

The way its set up now, You get the Special character at a decent price and only those that wish to use the special rule to its max effectiveness have to pay for it through buying the weapons.

Other players aren't forced to eat the cost of the power combo and each player gets to determine the level of expenditure and commitment to that particular combo, as opposed to it being force fed to the whole army through an overpriced character.

See, you've got this exactly backwards. As presented in the new codex, everyone is forced to pay for part of the value of the special character (through increased cost of power weapons). Only those who then take the special character AND power weapons will actually get something closer to a worthwhile return on investment.

In practice, it just means that the option is meaningless - no one will take power weapons in a competitive list.

Third, This way of doing it allows you to only have to pay for the ability on the units that will be enhanced. So, Yeah I find 10pts fair for what will be a S4 I4 on the assault a fair price. Its also flexible and leaves a lot of how many points your going to use up to the player.

No, you have to pay for the ability on any unit you give a power weapon to. They are only "enhanced" if you also take the corresponding character (and get the order off).

Now, yes, it is overpriced if your not using the special ability. This is why Orders and these New/Old special characters replaced Doctrines. Also, doesn't the priest convey something like Furous Assault on the unit if he is included? Haven't heard for sure in the new codex yet.

See, that's the whole point - the weapon is overpriced in it's default state. It may* be priced more correctly for a "Furious Charge" scenario, but that's not the base situation. It makes more sense, from a game design standpoint, to have the points costs for discrete items/rules self-contained: a power weapon is worth X, and should cost X. A special character is worth Y, and should cost Y. A power weapon shouldn't cost (X + 1/z(Y)), with the special character then costing some fractional amount less!

The priest, if I remember a few posts back correctly, allows rerolls on the charge. This should be a cost associated with the priest, not spread across the priest, the officers, and the weapons.

*Given that Orders are limited in number/turn, limited in range, require a leadership test, require the officer to still be alive, and (in the case of Furious Charge) don't work in your opponent's phase (so no S4 I4 if you're being charged), I continue to dispute whether a power weapon is worth 10 pts in a guardsman's hands.

warboss wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Shumhammer 40,000 is a magical place.

Shumahammer is a place where people don't cry on the internet because they don't get to have a special crutch to lean on any more, a crutch that they didn't use anyway because it's pointless to walk around with. It's a place where things are costed reasonably and people understand that game balance revolves around creating a game environment where things are equal, not where things are "what you want to see". Shumahammer is a place where the magical idea of a balanced game environment means that things like power weapons will never see play in guard armies because they are a stupid upgrade to cheap numerous ablative squads that likely exist as a speed bump and in which the weapon itself has no realistic use at any point value. Shumahammer is a game where 25 point sentinels are rediculous, the vendetta is 50 points too cheap, ogryn are unreasonable at 40 points a pop and a deep striking suicide squad with tri firing ap3 lasguns and rerollable deep strikes is worth the cost of a basic tactical marine.

Shumahammer is a place where people with reasonable opinions are untainted by the QQ of several years of poor guard performance that causes posters to try and overbalance the game then state that they would "be happy" if they were considered the new over powered kiddie build army.

Its a place where the imperial guard are not a close combat force and in which people read some of the non IG centric novels. It's a place where my marines don't get to single handedly kill fifty guardsman in close combat despite it also being in the fluff.


Its a place where you all belong, yet none of you will ever be.

does gorath workshop charge for shumahammer models based on points cost or how expensive/difficult the model is to actually produce?

I think he keep forgetting that this is a GAME. And fluff is only secondary. If they make the rulebooks fluff wise then IG could field 323213413 million man against 1 million smurfs. So he's just ranting.
Shumma: A space marine takes defeat with pride.

Hey, I was thinking about something - I know that Commanders may issue orders to other squads while they are in a vehicle, but that other squads in vehicles may not receive orders from a Commander. What about that Commander's own squad? If the Commander and his Command Squad are all loaded up in a Chimera - can he give orders to the men in his squad?

I mean, let's say you decide to take a Company Commander and load up his squad with 4 Vets w/ Meltas - can he give them "Bring it down!" to twin-link the meltas?

Death By Monkeys wrote:Hey, I was thinking about something - I know that Commanders may issue orders to other squads while they are in a vehicle, but that other squads in vehicles may not receive orders from a Commander. What about that Commander's own squad? If the Commander and his Command Squad are all loaded up in a Chimera - can he give orders to the men in his squad?

I mean, let's say you decide to take a Company Commander and load up his squad with 4 Vets w/ Meltas - can he give them "Bring it down!" to twin-link the meltas?

that's some serious johnny cochrane you're channelling there, DBM... if they worded the rule that way or FAQed it so, i would lose what little respect i have for GW's design team.

focusedfire wrote:

AAwww, Its cute when you resort to childish mispelling of a name in a vague attempt at an insult. You know thats your tell, don't you? That whenever someone is politely and quietly proving you wrong, you resort to little slurs and attempts to belittle them.

This time it backfired on you, because I was quietly reading, as your attempt at a patronizing tone suggest I should. I was reading as you argued, (I'm paraphrasing here) that weapon effectiveness should not effect the cost and that taking into account that power gamers might/will try to exploit power combos as part of your game design is poor way to design.

Go back and read what you typed and think about how illogical your argument sounds. I'm not trying to pick a fight here. I'm just pointing out that what you were saying makes you look as if you might not be the most logical person. I know that you get into heated arguments with certain posters on this forum that results in a sometimes surly tone. I feel that this time you let it get to you where you made an argument that wasn't one of your better ones. You often have really good, if somewhat harsh or dour,logical assesments. I'm just politely disagreeing with this one because it is neither good or logical.

Edit for added sentence

Let's take a look.

Statement 1: "I'm just politely disagreeing."

Statement 2: "...you might not be the most logical person".

Statement 3: (OK, this is from me) Read Rule #1. There's a convenient link in my sig below. What you said wasn't polite, and you knew it, but you tried to cover your butt by saying that you were being polite.

I really don't understand why being polite is so difficult. You can disagree, debate and argue while still being polite. You have resorted to personal attacks. Please refrain from doing this.

BoxANT wrote:What would make a better meatshield/tarpit?

7 Ogyrns (290pt), so 21 T5 wounds, stubborn.

or

50gaurdsmen & a commissar (285pt), 51 T3 wounds stubborn/fearless?



The guardsmen shoot better, hold objectives better, do more damage on the charge, and imo are even better tarpits.

This is a perfectly valid question. I'm not going to disagree with your implication, but I'd like to add some more perspective.

You said tarpit, which leads me to belive that you don't want to win combat, you don't want your unit back, you just want it to hold as long as it can. Well 50 conscripts (although a MASSIVE footprint and PITA to move/run in a timed tourney setting) is better in that regard.

However, the combination of low strength low toughness and low number of attacks means, that the ratio of wounds it gives up to wounds it causes will never yield a combat win. Thats fine you are LD10 stubborn possibly with a re-roll.

The difference in the ogryn unit, is that although easier for an uber assault unit to chew through than 50 models, their combination of high toughness and high strength means that more situations will arise where you are actually winning combats.

Winning combats isn't something guard is used to, but its better than letting a tarpit disintegrate for lots of reasons.

I hope when you calculated who does more damage on the charge you didn't operate on the assumption that all 50 models would get to attack. That's just not going to happen. 30 man ork units regularly forgo 6-10 models worth of attacks when they charge. So I'd do my conscript calculations with 25 of them getting to attack on the charge.

Same goes with the shooting, on the move you've got 50 models with a 12" range. Practically speaking, you will never see 100 shots from them. I have never seen 30 orks get all 60 of their shoota shots off and they have 18" range.

Ultimately, ogryns probably aren't for me, but when you make a comparison between a pure defensive tarpit and them, know that you are getting something else beyond stubbornness with them. Whether or not you want to invest in that something else is another post

warboss wrote:

Death By Monkeys wrote:Hey, I was thinking about something - I know that Commanders may issue orders to other squads while they are in a vehicle, but that other squads in vehicles may not receive orders from a Commander. What about that Commander's own squad? If the Commander and his Command Squad are all loaded up in a Chimera - can he give orders to the men in his squad?

I mean, let's say you decide to take a Company Commander and load up his squad with 4 Vets w/ Meltas - can he give them "Bring it down!" to twin-link the meltas?

that's some serious johnny cochrane you're channelling there, DBM... if they worded the rule that way or FAQed it so, i would lose what little respect i have for GW's design team.

If the Company Command Squad don't fit, you must acquit!

I thought that the twin link only applied to heavy weapons in the target squad?

Ogryns wont win many more combats than guardsmen, they still take more wounds than they can give out.

I haven't seen anything that says that it's for heavy weapons only. Wonder if middle can comment?

Shep wrote:This is a perfectly valid question. I'm not going to disagree with your implication, but I'd like to add some more perspective.

You said tarpit, which leads me to belive that you don't want to win combat, you don't want your unit back, you just want it to hold as long as it can. Well 50 conscripts (although a MASSIVE footprint and PITA to move/run in a timed tourney setting) is better in that regard.

However, the combination of low strength low toughness and low number of attacks means, that the ratio of wounds it gives up to wounds it causes will never yield a combat win. Thats fine you are LD10 stubborn possibly with a re-roll.

The difference in the ogryn unit, is that although easier for an uber assault unit to chew through than 50 models, their combination of high toughness and high strength means that more situations will arise where you are actually winning combats.

Winning combats isn't something guard is used to, but its better than letting a tarpit disintegrate for lots of reasons.

I hope when you calculated who does more damage on the charge you didn't operate on the assumption that all 50 models would get to attack. That's just not going to happen. 30 man ork units regularly forgo 6-10 models worth of attacks when they charge. So I'd do my conscript calculations with 25 of them getting to attack on the charge.

Same goes with the shooting, on the move you've got 50 models with a 12" range. Practically speaking, you will never see 100 shots from them. I have never seen 30 orks get all 60 of their shoota shots off and they have 18" range.

Ultimately, ogryns probably aren't for me, but when you make a comparison between a pure defensive tarpit and them, know that you are getting something else beyond stubbornness with them. Whether or not you want to invest in that something else is another post

Yes, and no. I've already covered most of what I want to say about Ogryn in the Tactics forum (over here), but to touch on your points a little:

1) Conscripts/mega-platoons are almost never going to win an assault against any foe worth considering. You should not be charging with them, for the purposes of winning a combat. They will, however, tie a unit down (e.g., pin down an incoming unit *away* from an objective, and keep it there for a couple turns).

2) Ogryn will almost never be cost-effective as a counter-assault unit. In every conceivable counter-assault scenario, you would be better with a unit of Grey Knight Terminators, or just an equivalent weight in firepower.

3) When discussing unit roles, counter-assault is different from assault. The distinction is subtle, but important for the IG. What the IG need in a counter-assault unit is exemplified by the Rough Riders - hit a single troublesome enemy assault threat, and remove the threat; survival is optional. Troublesome things are typically high points/low model count - it's harder to bring adequate firepower to bear on 5 Assault Termies than 30 orks, for example.

Ogryn are actually a pretty good assault unit - they are resilient, and can beat up on other army's scoring units fairly effectively, and their cost per wound isn't insanely out of line with other armies (although the lack of a power weapon option is significant).

Crickey.

What are peoples thoughts on Vet Squads? Would a Veteran heavy army by too weak in terms of scoring units? Right now I'd love to do vets mounted in either Valkyries and/or Vendetta's with a small reserve of tanks.

Originally I thought about this:

Veteran/Valkyrie/Russ 1500pts:
HQ:
Not sure yet, thinking about maybe doing a primaris psycher?

Troops:
3x10 Vets w/2 Melta's 1 unit with Harker

Fast:
3x1 Valkyries or Vendetta's they would have Door gunners

Heavy:
2x2 Leman Russ' w/Hvy Bolters

Would that be too few troops? I figure soften up the opponent with the Russ', try to keep the Valks/Vends back or scoot them into decent firing positions and then drop Vets where needed or to take objectives?

Thoughts, am I heading in the right direction or am I barking up the wrong tree? I don't want to spam Valks/Vends but it would be nice to own a few =D

Plus I am using Catachans as my theme which I see as a hybrid of Apocalypse Now with some Tanks =D

Thanks,
Chappy P!

Meh, dont worry about ogryns, dont worry about conscript tarpits. Just buy a squad of rough riders, and kill what ever gets close to your lines.

Biophysic wrote:I want to defend some of the statements made by Shuma, as I agree with them. I think 10 points might be an appropriate cost for power weapons on Guard Sergeants.

My reasoning:

In the previous edition, 10 points for a power weapon would never be worth it on a Sergeant, and 5 wouldn't be either, even if it were legal, because there is no way a squad of guard could stand up in combat long enough for the power weapon to be effective. 5 point power weapons were doubly bad for officers, because they were independent characters, and wouldn't last in combat even if they were in squads larger than 5.

Good analysis, but actually I bought PWs on some of my JOs simply to force my opponent to split his attacks, and hopefully cause the squad to survive and hold for a turn, but yes, it was generally a pretty mediocre choice.

In the current rumored codex, anyone who pays 10 points for a power weapon on a Sergeant in a 10 man squad is making a bad list. There are a lot of places in a Guard army that can hold special weapons, and 10 points is 1 or 2 of those.

Agreed.

However, and herein lies the rub, Guard now have the option of taking effectively larger squads due to combining squads in a platoon. Imagine 20-40 Guardsmen, with a commissar leading them. That's 30-50 points to get all your leaders power weapons. This squad will, in all probability, not break due to the influence of the Commissar.

Let's take 30 Guardsmen +1 Commissar. At this point, you don't have a single 10 point power weapon on one guy in a 10 man squad, you have four 10 point power weapons in a 31 man stubborn squad. 12 WS3, S3, I3 power weapon attacks per turn, AKA slightly less than 2 dead MEQs/turn of combat, in addition to what the rest of the squad can do. Furthermore, as the squad fights, it looses hardly any combat ability.

This is a really good point. Anybody reading this could take notes, because Biophysic is showing you how to make a valid point and defend a position.

This squad is a sizable fraction of points that could simply be spent on more guns, the traditional, and reliable approach. However, this is 5th edition. Objectives matter. This squad can be issued the RUN! order to get where it needs to go. It can be issued the FRFSRF! order to deal out wounds to whoever is nearby. It WILL be assaulted, and in that case, I think it is worth 10 points per power weapon (40 points) to substantially increase the kill potential of the squad.

It's certainly not a no-brainer choice. I think arguments can be made for not taking the power weapons, but in this type of squad pattern (the only type of squad I'd consider taking power weapons for) 5 points is probably too cheap.

The codex authors basically gave us a platform for taking power weapons, and upped their cost. I find this preferable to cheap, unusable power weapons.

So, you're argument is that on a 31 man platform that's LD10, stubborn, and already runs, say 245pts with three autocannons, three flamers, commissar and power weapon, taking 10pt power weapons isn't a bad idea. This is actually pretty arguable, and might be where they're pulling their numbers from.

The problem I see is that you still have a squad that isn't particularly good in close combat, can still fail morale checks (even though it's unlikely), and costs far more than a 30 man boys mob and would get slapped around by any dedicated combat squad that hit it.

The comparison to the boys mob is notable, because they're a squad that can focus purely on assault (like IG can focus solely on shooting), but can switch to being a pretty strong shooting platform and nobody seems to think that's utterly ridiculous.

I think that you're probably right in that GW's tendency to conservatively price new options means that they were afraid of giant IG Squads with multiple hidden power weapons. I'm not sold that even then the power weapons themselves are proper at 5pts. Part of that is because I still think that IG are a touch over costed, stat-line for state line, at 50pts a squad. Compare them to Boys, who have access to decent heavy weapons and a ton more special rules, and the comparison really breaks down.

Still thought, Biophysic raises a good point, and while I'd want to run some numbers and play test it to be sure, I can see the fear that caused the 10pt cost.

I'm getting more excited for this codex. The arguments I've seen here and the debate over the usefulness of Ogryns seems like there may be some fun options in this codex, while still having some power builds for competitive play.

So while I can see a tournament army never including Ogryns, I don't think they are so bad that we won't ever see them in beer drinking garage games (which is a step above their previous incarnation).

I'm now looking at the FW Ogryns as potentially having a home in my Renegade IG army...

This is a really good point. Anybody reading this could take notes, because Biophysic is showing you how to make a valid point and defend a position.

Yes and repeated libelous sentences make you such the good debater yourself. As for the 40 man squad, I mentioned that posts and posts ago in reference to the costing of a power fist. I was not aware that guard sargeants couldn't take them and the point was basically dismissed as trolling.

AlexCage wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Even if you only get 3 hits against a Nob Biker, you ignore their cover,

Whoa, what? Why do you ignore their cover, exactly? I don't recall seeing any other Leman than the Nova that ignores cover...

Wait, does Pask not ignore cover now? If so then just ignore what I said.

Well, this sucks. Oh well, I figure that I can get the new codex from a torrent or something then.

Or I'll just use the old one. No biggie.

Ripper guns always seemed like pointless bashing tools to me the way they are used in 40k. They have a huge bayonet that looks like it would rip somthing apart... or rend it apart. could ogryn have rending? that would justify their price and make them more useful w/o forcing GW to make ogryn models with power weapons. anyone know for certain?

*EDIT: At least the bone ead' has a big bayonet

@ Janthkin-
1)By your definition, Powerfist are general use in a lot of armies.

2)Unlockable rules are there because there are some rules that are too powerful to be armywide and so that players have build flexibility within there armies.

Its unrealistic to hope for a Codex for every army variation. GW can't keep up with the ones they have now. What your proposing would force GW to write so many Codices that it would stagnate the game as far as updating goes.

3) No, I don't think I have it backwards. Your side of this debate has as much as admitted that even at 5pts the power weapons are a waste on a S3 I3 Guardsman. All that has happened is that there is now the ability to make a select number of units actually effective at an appropriate cost. If someone wants to waste those points of buying a HtH specific weapon for a Non-HtH specific unit/model its their loss.

4) No one is forcing you to equip the model with a powersword. Actually, if the the units are designed to work together then, ideally, the cost should be shared between the units involved. Something that they apparently did.


As always just my viewpoint and doesn't have to be shared by anyone else.

ShumaGorath wrote:

This is a really good point. Anybody reading this could take notes, because Biophysic is showing you how to make a valid point and defend a position.

Yes and repeated libelous sentences make you such the good debater yourself. As for the 40 man squad, I mentioned that posts and posts ago in reference to the costing of a power fist. I was not aware that guard sargeants couldn't take them and the point was basically dismissed as trolling.

If I missed it, I apologize.

Libelous, huh? Repeated libelous? I'm pretty sure I haven't said anything libelous, but feel free to PM anything you think qualifies.

My point was, in the middle of a heated debate, a poster made a well argued, well supported point that seemed to show an understanding of game mechanics, the reality of play, and how IG perform on the table top. It was a good post, and I would hope more posters post like that. I'm sorry you don't like the subtle insinuation that your posts don't argue a point well, but in general you suffer the same problem many folks here do: you allow your good points to get drowned out by a combination of attitude, shtick, and a refusal to admit that you're wrong. It's a trait often shared by your foils here, and it simply makes your posts less credible, and often less accurate. I was also trying to show that I am genuinely engaged in debate and discussion, and that I recognized this value. I'd rather negotiate than browbeat, I suppose.

I'm not telling anybody how to post, but I'm telling you there's a way to post that gets my attention.

Vladsimpaler wrote:
Wait, does Pask not ignore cover now? If so then just ignore what I said.

Well, this sucks. Oh well, I figure that I can get the new codex from a torrent or something then.

Or I'll just use the old one. No biggie.

Did he ever? I don't ever remember reading it. That's not to say it wasn't rumoured/confirmed, I just never saw it. But then again, once I saw Pask was BS4 and allowed reroll to wound (Is that ONLY on MCs?) and +1 Armor Pen, I stopped reading. That's all I needed to hear.

AlexCage wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:
Wait, does Pask not ignore cover now? If so then just ignore what I said.

Well, this sucks. Oh well, I figure that I can get the new codex from a torrent or something then.

Or I'll just use the old one. No biggie.

Did he ever? I don't ever remember reading it. That's not to say it wasn't rumoured/confirmed, I just never saw it. But then again, once I saw Pask was BS4 and allowed reroll to wound (Is that ONLY on MCs?) and +1 Armor Pen, I stopped reading. That's all I needed to hear.

Hmm, for some reason I had read that he gave Crack Shot.

Still, 50 points for BS4 and a +1 to Pen is still pretty stinking good. Especially on the Demolisher. Ahhh....

A 50% chance of Penetrating Armor 14? Sign me up, please!

Hey, does anyone know if you can put Pask in the Multi-Melta Hound? Str 9 +2d6 armor penetration? Whee!

I can see me making a lot of armies with this guy. I'll change his name to protect the innocent.

Same with Harker. I'll rename him Sergeant S.L. Jackson, and rename his Heavy Bolter the BAMF Heavy Bolter...which stands for...uh...Bolt Action Machine Firearm. Yeah...

Janthkin wrote:1) Conscripts/mega-platoons are almost never going to win an assault against any foe worth considering. You should not be charging with them, for the purposes of winning a combat. They will, however, tie a unit down (e.g., pin down an incoming unit *away* from an objective, and keep it there for a couple turns).

Agree.

Janthkin wrote:2) Ogryn will almost never be cost-effective as a counter-assault unit. In every conceivable counter-assault scenario, you would be better with a unit of Grey Knight Terminators, or just an equivalent weight in firepower.

Agree. For at least 18 months. When the grey knight option is pulled from us, then we'll have to look at rough riders.

Janthkin wrote:3) When discussing unit roles, counter-assault is different from assault. The distinction is subtle, but important for the IG. What the IG need in a counter-assault unit is exemplified by the Rough Riders - hit a single troublesome enemy assault threat, and remove the threat; survival is optional. Troublesome things are typically high points/low model count - it's harder to bring adequate firepower to bear on 5 Assault Termies than 30 orks, for example.

Agree. That's why i thought putting ogryns up against conscripts or large platoons was unfair.

Janthkin wrote:Ogryn are actually a pretty good assault unit - they are resilient, and can beat up on other army's scoring units fairly effectively, and their cost per wound isn't insanely out of line with other armies (although the lack of a power weapon option is significant).

Agree.

Chaplain Pallantide wrote:What are peoples thoughts on Vet Squads? Would a Veteran heavy army by too weak in terms of scoring units? Right now I'd love to do vets mounted in either Valkyries and/or Vendetta's with a small reserve of tanks.

Originally I thought about this:

Veteran/Valkyrie/Russ 1500pts:
HQ:
Not sure yet, thinking about maybe doing a primaris psycher?

Troops:
3x10 Vets w/2 Melta's 1 unit with Harker

Fast:
3x1 Valkyries or Vendetta's they would have Door gunners

Heavy:
2x2 Leman Russ' w/Hvy Bolters

Would that be too few troops? I figure soften up the opponent with the Russ', try to keep the Valks/Vends back or scoot them into decent firing positions and then drop Vets where needed or to take objectives?

Thoughts, am I heading in the right direction or am I barking up the wrong tree? I don't want to spam Valks/Vends but it would be nice to own a few =D

Plus I am using Catachans as my theme which I see as a hybrid of Apocalypse Now with some Tanks =D

Thanks,
Chappy P!

Absolutely not. In fact the 3x10 vet in chimera rig is one of the two or three troops setups I ill regularly be running. the vet unit I like right now is this...

10x vets 3x meltas, 1x lascannon in naked chimera.

Hang out with your tanks, either giving cover to artillery or taking cover from russes, plunk away with the BS4 lascannon (or autocannon if you aren't already running tons of hydras) and then when its time, trundle off to the objectives, shredding hard targets along the way with your meltas.

Valk/vendetta is a great place to put a scoring unit, but I'm not sure if its for veterans. a 35 point naked special weapon squad makes a lot of sense in there. If you've got good shooting troops that you want to put in a transport, its hard to say no to the 5 firepoint chimera.

When you run mechanized vets, your ability to issue orders is essentially non-existent. I like your idea of just skipping the company command squad and looking at something else. I would probably do the same thing. I'm just having trouble deciding between the primaris or the lord commissar.

@Iorek, What should I have said?

When taking those words out of context they seem like a personal insult. But they were preceded with,"What you were saying makes you look as if....(insert the out of context line here)" The comment was directed and intended to be against his remark, not him personally.


Maybe I should have said what I was going to at first. That what he was saying was, IMO, illogical.

I was actually trying to avoid flaming by addressing how his statements came across, as oppossed to just claiming that his argument was illogical.


Now that you've come in and pointed out that you take my statement as an insult, I will of course retract it and I will further do this:


@HBMC, I apologize for my post. It was not my intent to personally attack you. I, actually hold your knowledge of the guard in high esteem and is why I mentioned a certain admiration for your "Often really good, if somewhat harsh or dour, logical assesments."

Anyway, please accept my apology

focusedfire wrote:AAwww, Its cute when you resort to childish mispelling of a name in a vague attempt at an insult.

Oh FFS... I missed an 's' in your name because I was typing the reply quickly. I wasn't trying to insult you.

Oh my i've created a monster. 22 pages.

focusedfire: ST's with airborne deployment may use the re-roll when they themselves deepstrike. Being chucked out of the back of a Valk / Vend is worked out with deepstrike rules but targetted along the path of the Valk / Vend, so there is a possibility of using the re-roll on that. I'll check the wording and get back to you.

Badger: I didn't check the inferno cannon template placement. I can look it up for you.

Commissar lords have no orders. Just the Ld 10 bubble.

Anung Un Rama: Penal custodian has a pistol and ccw and not a lasgun like the rest of the legionnaires. Thats about as special as he gets.

Raxmei: No psychic hoods.

warboss: A squad with Kell in it uses the ordering officers Ld and not it's own. Means you can have Creed buff another CCS that has Kell in if you should need to. Why you would? I can't think, but it's what his skill does.

Gestalt + Death By Monkeys: FRFSRF! is for lasguns. None of the other orders are limited to certain weapons. With Bring it Down! you may twin link anything you can think of that is not a friendly vehicle. Something i'm looking forward to is my PCS have always run with a couple of flamers in there, re-roll to hit? no thanks i'll have the re-roll to wound. And now one can be a heavy flamer. Oh the loving.

Also I don't know if anyone else has considered this, but I have a feeling the ordnance advisor may benefit from orders when he is throwing his earthshaker rounds about as it is 'his shooting'.

Re-roll the scatter??? Don't mind if I do. That is 30 points of filth right there.

H.B.M.C., Still please accept my apology. It was not my intent to insult you, either.

AAARGH missed one.

Death By Monkeys: There isn't a special mention for passing orders to a squad in a vehicle that your officer is in. I reckon it would just come under the 'Your vehicle is too noisy rule'

H.B.M.C. wrote:

focusedfire wrote:AAwww, Its cute when you resort to childish mispelling of a name in a vague attempt at an insult.

Oh FFS... I missed an 's' in your name because I was typing the reply quickly. I wasn't trying to insult you.

Yeah because you never do that to anybody .

focusedfire wrote:H.B.M.C., Still please accept my apology. It was not my intent to insult you, either.

Perhaps a case of leaping before you looked, hmm?

[EDIT]: Forget it... not worth it.

Ahh, personalatakka.com Has a ring to it, no?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Yeah because you never do that to anybody .

People who I insult know about it because, as Janthkin so keenly put it, I make no real attempts to be subtle.

I'm still amazed they haven't asked you to change your signature.



:dit: You apparently "deleted" this post before I submit this response. Let the truth be known!

ShumaGorath wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

focusedfire wrote:AAwww, Its cute when you resort to childish mispelling of a name in a vague attempt at an insult.

Oh FFS... I missed an 's' in your name because I was typing the reply quickly. I wasn't trying to insult you.

Yeah because you never do that to anybody .

FFS Shuma, its dead! Fracking drop it already and stop trying to be a flipping Necromancer of bad Ju-Ju!

Yeah, before this thread is locked:

Any thoughts on using a Banewolf? Use a hull heavy flamer, move 12" and then spray 2 heavy templates, since the chemical cannon is a defensive weapon (S1).

Could be fun.

Necromancer? He deleted it within ten second of my submitting the response. If thats necromancy I'm a pretty awful necromancer.

Yeah, before this thread is locked:

Any thoughts on using a Banewolf? Use a hull heavy flamer, move 12" and then spray 2 heavy templates, since the chemical cannon is a defensive weapon (S1).

Could be fun.

It would be a pretty good vehicle for back field objective contesting/taking. One of the neat features of the squadron is that you can tank shock with the front vehicle to line them all up then use your flamers against their newly repositioned models in a much more effective manner (or at least I've pulled it off once).

Sounds like fun from my end also, but I dont see it makeing up its points before its killed. I could be wrong, just baseing this off the rumors so far.

ShumaGorath wrote:Necromancer? He deleted it within ten second of my submitting the response. If thats necromancy I'm a pretty awful necromancer.

Perhaps I need to spell it out at kiddy level for you......


D-R-O-P I-T A-N-D M-O-V-E O-N!

Is it really that hard? Let it go dude. All you are doing is bringing another thread into a flamewar.

middle wrote:AAARGH missed one.

Death By Monkeys: There isn't a special mention for passing orders to a squad in a vehicle that your officer is in. I reckon it would just come under the 'Your vehicle is too noisy rule'

LOL.

"Your Vehicle is Too Noisy"
A brief interlude one-man show depicting one of the random restrictions in the new Imperial Guard Codex.


"What's that, sir? I'm sorry, I can't hear what you're saying!"
"What's that? Clean it down? Yessir, my melta is ready for your inspection! Clean as a whistle!"
"You're shaking your head no."
"Corporal Bleen is down, sir? Shall I vox the medicae?"
"No, that's not it, either."
"Sing it down? Okay, sir, I'll take the regimental hymn down an octave."
"Oh, sir, look at that, you accidentally knocked the cap off your head!"
"What's that? Break it down? Hm. I'm not sure how to do that with the regimental hymn. Oom-oom-chuck, oom-oom-oom-chuck, oom-oom-chuck, oom-oom-oom chuck!"
"Sir, why are you stomping on your cap?"

Cue music. Close curtain.

So, do I need to rebase all of my heavy weapons? I just realized I either missed that bit, or it was never answered. I mean, I can easily just base some generic large bases to put whatever weapons I want to on them, but if I need to I'll need to eventually rebase them all.

Any news of what models we're supposed to use for penal legion? Or will any ragged looking models do?

jp400 wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Necromancer? He deleted it within ten second of my submitting the response. If thats necromancy I'm a pretty awful necromancer.

Perhaps I need to spell it out at kiddy level for you......


D-R-O-P I-T A-N-D M-O-V-E O-N!

Is it really that hard? Let it go dude. All you are doing is bringing another thread into a flamewar.

No I think you're doing that. HBMC and I usually just do single post snipes at eachother like the above and move on.

You might have to wait a while but I'm thinking new unit = new models. Call me old fashioned, but as a miniatures company that have books with 'rules' in them, I'd like to be able to buy some at an expensive rate Vs converting some up for ten times the cost of what they should be.

The artwork on the penal legion page looks like a bunch of empire flagellants with lasguns. Eg: ragtag / no shoes.

Thinking about that. It does mean we finally have a use for those over muscled plastic flaggellants. Catachan Penal Legion !!!

I have heard some craziness about the re-boxing of the ten man guard boxes. Said to possibly have bits to make vets / penals in there with the basic grunts. I doubt it very much though.

GW is known for making statements without including the little line "with converting and using spare bits from your bits box you can create.."

BrookM wrote:GW is known for making statements without including the little line "with converting and using spare bits from your bits box you can create.."

They had an army that was all about that statement once. They were called orks.

No they were called Lost & The Damned...

Actually I'm referring to the statements of GW where they claim that said boxed set can produce something special or obscure, and upon buying the said boxed set you find out that no, you can't. The whole "the new Guard infantry boxed sets will allow you to create penes and conscripts with the included parts" is most likely a selling stinger but I doubt anything new will really be included.

ubermosher wrote:Yeah, before this thread is locked:

Any thoughts on using a Banewolf? Use a hull heavy flamer, move 12" and then spray 2 heavy templates, since the chemical cannon is a defensive weapon (S1).

Could be fun.

Wait, so does the Chemical Cannon being Strength 1 mean it counts as defensive? If so, thats awesome.

middle wrote:You might have to wait a while but I'm thinking new unit = new models. Call me old fashioned, but as a miniatures company that have books with 'rules' in them, I'd like to be able to buy some at an expensive rate Vs converting some up for ten times the cost of what they should be.

The artwork on the penal legion page looks like a bunch of empire flagellants with lasguns. Eg: ragtag / no shoes.

Thinking about that. It does mean we finally have a use for those over muscled plastic flaggellants. Catachan Penal Legion !!!

I have heard some craziness about the re-boxing of the ten man guard boxes. Said to possibly have bits to make vets / penals in there with the basic grunts. I doubt it very much though.

Having used Flagellant bodies with Catachan arms I can safely say that the flagellant arms are much closer to realistic scale than the catachan arms. The Catachans are nearly double in size compared to the flagellants (they actually make the flagellant arms look weedy by comparison).

The remark about "tainted sisters" (Heresy!) reminded me that SoB pay 10pts for their PWs, and 25 for their pseudo-fists. I think this is notable in that Seraphim pay only 10 pts for a PW on a WS4 Str3 I4 Sv3+ model that has access to Faith, and yet they are rarely taken in favor of dropping 15 more points on a Str6 Chainfist. Likewise on the standard girl squads.
Now, you can't get a mass of girls with multiple power weapons like you could with guard, but SoB are a much more durable platform in general. They rarely run away from combat, and are going to take many less wounds in any given melee than guard due to power armor and a possible 3+ Inv save.
So if a PW on SoB is not worth 10 pts despite all their other advantages, is it really sensible to say it is worth it on guard?
Perhaps on the giant amoeba unit, but consider for a moment just how difficult it will be to get 4 power weapons where you want them on that 50 man mob. Were I attacking it with jump troops, it would be fairly easy to hit the side of the mob that didn't have more than one or two power weapons within 2" of contact. In order to ensure those 4-5PWs make contact, you either have to bunch together, or keep the PWs spread out such that every 8" or so has one handy. That might prove to be a neat trick.

I might be wrong, but I really think that at 10 points the big power weapon squad is merely "Huh, kind of funny" as opposed to 5 points where it becomes "Huh, that might be viable!"

I agree with you Wehrkind, to the extent that even if 5pt PWs were the hotness on amoeba squads, I wouldn't mind, simply because it's a genuinely expensive squad that is still really easy to kill. My response to the idea that if allowed, IG could have a good combat unit is: great!

I think at 10pts you'll see a handful taken in Creed lists to take advantage of "For cadia," but that's about it on models with two attacks.

Damn your sig, wherkind!

Biophysic wrote:
In the previous edition, 10 points for a power weapon would never be worth it on a Sergeant, and 5 wouldn't be either, even if it were legal, because there is no way a squad of guard could stand up in combat long enough for the power weapon to be effective. 5 point power weapons were doubly bad for officers, because they were independent characters, and wouldn't last in combat even if they were in squads larger than 5.

I disagree. Why could a Guard squad not stand in the fight long enough? Assuming that with "the previous edition" you mean the current codex, they're hitting simultaneously with Marines. Are we talking about standing up to 30 Orks or Harlequins (were a PW wouldn't matter anyways), or are we talking about counter-assaulting a shot-up unit that relies on its armour save?

Secondly, Officers aren't IC's in CC even under the current 'dex. Yes, they might die more often than not but perhaps taking down just one more enemy model with them is enough, and 5 points isn't a budget breaker by any stretch of the imagination.

foil7102 wrote:Meh, dont worry about ogryns, dont worry about conscript tarpits. Just buy a squad of rough riders, and kill what ever gets close to your lines.

Unless your opponent so much as looks at the RR. Most people except Ork players know what they can do, and Ork players don't care.

Polonius wrote:
The problem I see is that you still have a squad that isn't particularly good in close combat, can still fail morale checks (even though it's unlikely), and costs far more than a 30 man boys mob and would get slapped around by any dedicated combat squad that hit it.

It doesn't really cost far more. Your usual Ork mob includes a Nob, PK, bosspole, and a couple of big shootas. Also, the IG squad should not include autocannon if it is intended to charge/receive charges, or be better at shooting up those Orks for a couple of turns. Considering the flamers, there will inevitably be situations were this IG squad gets the upper hand.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Shumhammer 40,000 is a magical place.

Shumahammer is a place where people don't cry on the internet because they don't get to have a special crutch to lean on any more, a crutch that they didn't use anyway because it's pointless to walk around with.

It's not much of a crutch if nobody ever used it, nobody would still use it at 5 pts, and nobody would definitely use it now. I don't think anyone ever did or would use power weapons in a guard army as an unfair advantage to make up for some weakness elsewhere. The increase in power weapon cost has no effect on my army, but I still think it is stupid to increase the cost of an upgrade that nobody took when it was cheap.
And you are entitled to your opinion on all these things, but only in your world can you tank shock entire armies every turn with vendettas that are not tanks. That is what I was referencing, hence what I quoted.

Geez, he got a rule wrong, so crucify him cause no one else has ever gotten rules wrong before. Also, I don't think he was refering to 5 pt power weapons when he talks about crutches, that's just you making inferences with no basis in anything actually said.

I don't agree with everything Shummy said, but at least attack him for things that are real instead of putting words in his mouth and harping on a rule he got wrong.

Can you girls go off and have your little hissy-fit somewhere else so we can get back to garnering the insides of the new IG codex? Thank you....

Can you still have a deepstriking army list?

odinsspear45 wrote:Can you still have a deepstriking army list?

Not really. Only Storm Troopers, Valkyries, and Vendettas can Deep Strike.

Nurgleboy77 wrote:Can you girls go off and have your little hissy-fit somewhere else so we can get back to garnering the insides of the new IG codex? Thank you....

Wouldn't be Dakka without all the drama.

Raxor wrote:

Nurgleboy77 wrote:Can you girls go off and have your little hissy-fit somewhere else so we can get back to garnering the insides of the new IG codex? Thank you....

Wouldn't be Dakka without all the drama.

Tru dat, yo. You take the bad with the good here.

Speaking of drama, middle, can you PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE prove this wrong!

From Warseer

Nuc;3411009 wrote:
The vox caster is 5 points, the only thing this is doing is to allow to reroll the test for taking in order. NOTHING more! No capability of transferring in order to a squat out of order range which is 12” for company command and 6” for platoon command. No capability for transferring the leadership skill, so you can not use the leadership skill of your commander. Actually you can not use his skill at all for any test even if you’re in range. The whole using leadership of the command squad is gone!

If this is true, there goes my last reason for buying this codex. And I'm sure, I figure I won't be the only one.

Vladsimpaler wrote:If this is true, there goes my last reason for buying this codex. And I'm sure, I figure I won't be the only one.

So you're saying you're going to give up on the book because your squads(which come with LD8 Sgts standard now) can't test on someone else's LD9? Why not just bring a LD10 Cannoness with LD bubble book if that's true?

Middle I have one question - how much for extra psykers in the choir squad ? And what are the ranges for psychic powers ( all 4 of them )

Also can command squad of any kind have Vox - and if so what does this vox in cs does

Platuan4th wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:If this is true, there goes my last reason for buying this codex. And I'm sure, I figure I won't be the only one.

So you're saying you're going to give up on the book because your squads(which come with LD8 Sgts standard now) can't test on someone else's LD9? Why not just bring a LD10 Cannoness with LD bubble book if that's true?

I could do that. But isn't that kind of sad when a 5th edition codex needs to depend on a codex from 3rd edition just to get some piddly order out?

I'm sorry. I really want to like this codex. I really want to. But when you have to be within 12 inches of a commander just to get an order (which really was one of the big reasons I wanted to get this codex), and you can't even use his LD, feth, what's left?

Everything I was excited for has been pretty much shown to be worthless, at least, in my eyes. 16 point stormtroopers...40 point Ogryns...I'm wondering what little else there is left that could ruin my excitement, at least, what little left of it there is?

Vladsimpaler wrote:Speaking of drama, middle, can you PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE prove this wrong!

From Warseer

Nuc;3411009 wrote:
The vox caster is 5 points, the only thing this is doing is to allow to reroll the test for taking in order. NOTHING more! No capability of transferring in order to a squat out of order range which is 12” for company command and 6” for platoon command. No capability for transferring the leadership skill, so you can not use the leadership skill of your commander. Actually you can not use his skill at all for any test even if you’re in range. The whole using leadership of the command squad is gone!

If this is true, there goes my last reason for buying this codex. And I'm sure, I figure I won't be the only one.

This rumor was debunked. You CAN send orders through the vox. Just not Ld, unless you have Kell.

And the CCS has a vox, same as everyone else, because they all work the same. There is no more need of a "master vox".

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:If this is true, there goes my last reason for buying this codex. And I'm sure, I figure I won't be the only one.

So you're saying you're going to give up on the book because your squads(which come with LD8 Sgts standard now) can't test on someone else's LD9? Why not just bring a LD10 Cannoness with LD bubble book if that's true?

I could do that. But isn't that kind of sad when a 5th edition codex needs to depend on a codex from 3rd edition just to get some piddly order out?

I'm sorry. I really want to like this codex. I really want to. But when you have to be within 12 inches of a commander just to get an order (which really was one of the big reasons I wanted to get this codex), and you can't even use his LD, feth, what's left?

Everything I was excited for has been pretty much shown to be worthless, at least, in my eyes. 16 point stormtroopers...40 point Ogryns...I'm wondering what little else there is left that could ruin my excitement, at least, what little left of it there is?

/insert random emo band (might as well make this one retroactive on all your posts in this thread )




It would be unfortunate if Voxes didn't allow long range Orders, but it is nothing that can not be worked around. Just means platoons need to move together so that they stay close to their Officer.

Scottywan82 wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:Speaking of drama, middle, can you PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE prove this wrong!

From Warseer

Nuc;3411009 wrote:
The vox caster is 5 points, the only thing this is doing is to allow to reroll the test for taking in order. NOTHING more! No capability of transferring in order to a squat out of order range which is 12” for company command and 6” for platoon command. No capability for transferring the leadership skill, so you can not use the leadership skill of your commander. Actually you can not use his skill at all for any test even if you’re in range. The whole using leadership of the command squad is gone!

If this is true, there goes my last reason for buying this codex. And I'm sure, I figure I won't be the only one.

This rumor was debunked. You CAN send orders through the vox. Just not Ld, unless you have Kell.

And the CCS has a vox, same as everyone else, because they all work the same. There is no more need of a "master vox".

Thank you.

@Box Ant- Not needed. Ignored.

Mahanon: Overseer + 4 psykers for 60pts and then another 5 at 10pts each. Sure it was in the write up.

Frazzled has put the goodies from this thread into his sticky so if it's hard to flick through 20 odd pages then i'd head there for reference.

Cheers Frazzled.

Psyker battle squad has 36" range on both of it's powers.

Primaris has 24" iirc on both powers.

CCS and PCS can both take a vox for 5. It is just a bog standard vox, no master vox anymore. Why take one? Can't have a telephone conversation with one telephone.

The squad and the officers squad must both have a vox to get the re-roll.

Vladsimpaler: I'm quite sure I saw that it has unlimited range, but I won't put money on it. I was looking at A LOT of stuff so could have got mixed up ala power armour techpriests.

I will get this checked for you all because it is a big issue.

oh and the cost of the techpriest - MAN you are doing major Job - big thx !!!

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:If this is true, there goes my last reason for buying this codex. And I'm sure, I figure I won't be the only one.

So you're saying you're going to give up on the book because your squads(which come with LD8 Sgts standard now) can't test on someone else's LD9? Why not just bring a LD10 Cannoness with LD bubble book if that's true?

I could do that. But isn't that kind of sad when a 5th edition codex needs to depend on a codex from 3rd edition just to get some piddly order out?

I'm sorry. I really want to like this codex. I really want to. But when you have to be within 12 inches of a commander just to get an order (which really was one of the big reasons I wanted to get this codex), and you can't even use his LD, feth, what's left?

Everything I was excited for has been pretty much shown to be worthless, at least, in my eyes. 16 point stormtroopers...40 point Ogryns...I'm wondering what little else there is left that could ruin my excitement, at least, what little left of it there is?

So your pissed that despite an army wide ld boost you can't use the leadership of a single model stuffed in a tank? Cry moar? Statistically it will be rare to fail orders, voxes are there to ensure that the orders will be followed on squads where you think it will be consistently important. Two hq choices spread 24" apart can cover your entire table edge in orders rolled against a leadership of 8 or better. I don't see them as required, good placement can replace a vox network.

You're not trying to like this codex. You clearly don't want too. Every post you've made has basically been a poorly thought out rantwhine. At least HBMC complains in a surly fashion.

middle wrote:Mahanon: Overseer + 4 psykers for 60pts and then another 5 at 10pts each. Sure it was in the write up.

Psyker battle squad has 36" range on both of it's powers.

Hmmm 100pts for a squad of 8pyskers (and 1 overseer), can reduce Ld10 to 2 and drop S8 pie from inside a chimera?

The 36" range just seals it for me, that's going to be awesome

I look forward to trying out this unit! (just need to buy more... sigh... psykers... )




Vlad: sorry if I hurt your feelings

And ShumaTroll Strikes Again!

Seriously dude, can you just not try to pick a fight with anybody on anythread for 1 day even??

Feth

ShumaGorath wrote:
So your pissed that despite an army wide ld boost you can't use the leadership of a single model stuffed in a tank? Cry moar?

No, it's annoying that I can't use an HSO's LD. Which was nice to have. And it's annoying that it seems to have been dropped for no good reason.

Statistically it will be rare to fail orders, voxes are there to ensure that the orders will be followed on squads where you think it will be consistently important. Two hq choices spread 24" apart can cover your entire table edge in orders rolled against a leadership of 8 or better. I don't see them as required, good placement can replace a vox network.

With voxes, it will be rare to fail LD. I definitely agree on that. If you use orders, they are very handy to have.
Since it's been debunked that you have to be within 12", that's a good thing. However, I'm kind of confused when you say that good placement can replace a vox network. (And I'm not trying to be argumentative or else you'll call me an a drunk...)
Voxes allow you to reroll LD tests for orders. Regardless of whether you are in range or not they're useful if you use orders.

You're not trying to like this codex. You clearly don't want too. Every post you've made has basically been a poorly thought out rantwhine. At least HBMC complains in a surly fashion.

My support for this codex is lukewarm. I like Pask, I like Harker, I like the Lumbering Behemoth rule, I like that Veterans are troops, and I like that you can have Drive By Chimeras, and I like that you can have Valkyries.

If you truly read every post that I've made in this thread (which I'm sure you haven't) then you will see a couple posts that are in support of this codex.

I know I look stupid and I know that you hate me (and so does everyone else here) but generalizations really don't help.

That ^, and leave me out of it...

Shhhh....

He is Vatching You.........

Vladsimpaler wrote:No, it's annoying that I can't use an HSO's LD. Which was nice to have. And it's annoying that it seems to have been dropped for no good reason.

It's been dropped arbitrarily, like so many other arbitrary things in this Codex. I mean... Officer Leadership has been part of the game since 2nd Ed. It worked. Guard Commanders based deployment strategies around it. I'm all for shaking up the metagame, but the wholesale removal of a core Guard rule is just... pointless. Why do it? And yes, I acknowledge that it isn't as necessary now with every squad having a Veteran Sergeant (all Guard Sergeants are Veterans? All the time?), but I still don't see the point.

No, it's annoying that I can't use an HSO's LD. Which was nice to have. And it's annoying that it seems to have been dropped for no good reason.

I would assume that it was replaced by the commissar lords ld bubble and the army wide LD increase. Having all three wouldn't be game breaking but it would go a long way towards removing moral from the game of warhammer 40k. The guard are one of the few remaining armies that really cares about leadership tests, and I always liked that aspect.

With voxes, it will be rare to fail LD. I definitely agree on that. If you use orders, they are very handy to have.
Since it's been debunked that you have to be within 12", that's a good thing. However, I'm kind of confused when you say that good placement can replace a vox network. (And I'm not trying to be argumentative or else you'll call me an a drunk...)

I think I misunderstood what you were trying to say. You are not drunk. I am the drunk one this time.

My support for this codex is lukewarm. I like Pask, I like Harker, I like the Lumbering Behemoth rule, I like that Veterans are troops, and I like that you can have Drive By Chimeras, and I like that you can have Valkyries.

If you truly read every post that I've made in this thread (which I'm sure you haven't) then you will see a couple posts that are in support of this codex.

I know I look stupid and I know that you hate me (and so does everyone else here) but generalizations really don't help.

In 24 pages the majority of your posts have been pretty far from positive. But you're right, generalizations don't help and there have been some marks of interest.

And ShumaTroll Strikes Again!

Seriously dude, can you just not try to pick a fight with anybody on anythread for 1 day even??

Shouldn't you be inflating your post count by posting in one of green bow flys spam threads? Or is this one of those threads? Was it moved?

It's been dropped arbitrarily, like so many other arbitrary things in this Codex. I mean... Officer Leadership has been part of the game since 2nd Ed. It worked. Guard Commanders based deployment strategies around it. I'm all for shaking up the metagame, but the wholesale removal of a core Guard rule is just... pointless. Why do it? And yes, I acknowledge that it isn't as necessary now with every squad having a Veteran Sergeant (all Guard Sergeants are Veterans? All the time?), but I still don't see the point.

I think that they are trying to make the commanders tactical leaders and the commisars the leadership guys. They are trying to separate the roles without hampering the armies capability.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:No, it's annoying that I can't use an HSO's LD. Which was nice to have. And it's annoying that it seems to have been dropped for no good reason.

It's been dropped arbitrarily, like so many other arbitrary things in this Codex. I mean... Officer Leadership has been part of the game since 2nd Ed. It worked. Guard Commanders based deployment strategies around it. I'm all for shaking up the metagame, but the wholesale removal of a core Guard rule is just... pointless. Why do it? And yes, I acknowledge that it isn't as necessary now with every squad having a Veteran Sergeant (all Guard Sergeants are Veterans? All the time?), but I still don't see the point.

Honestly you should have seen it coming when the new SM codex got rid of Rites of Battle, or whatever it was called.

The way they've set prices in this codex, if a vox could carry an order AND leadership score, they would have been even higher priced, and therefore good at nothing. Honestly, I'd rather have the Orders. But then again, I only ever ran a JO anyway.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:
So your pissed that despite an army wide ld boost you can't use the leadership of a single model stuffed in a tank? Cry moar?

No, it's annoying that I can't use an HSO's LD. Which was nice to have. And it's annoying that it seems to have been dropped for no good reason.

Statistically it will be rare to fail orders, voxes are there to ensure that the orders will be followed on squads where you think it will be consistently important. Two hq choices spread 24" apart can cover your entire table edge in orders rolled against a leadership of 8 or better. I don't see them as required, good placement can replace a vox network.

With voxes, it will be rare to fail LD. I definitely agree on that. If you use orders, they are very handy to have.
Since it's been debunked that you have to be within 12", that's a good thing. However, I'm kind of confused when you say that good placement can replace a vox network. (And I'm not trying to be argumentative or else you'll call me an a drunk...)
Voxes allow you to reroll LD tests for orders. Regardless of whether you are in range or not they're useful if you use orders.

it's not an army wide ld boost. i used to field a HSO and a platoon junior officer with the HI (or whatever the item that made him a HSO is). leadership bubbles combined with doctrines and voxes in every possible squad meant that almost my entire army was effectively ld9 with no penalties for being under half/outnumbered. going to ld8 due to squad sergeants is a DEMOTION. and before you tell me i can field a commissar for ld9 and stubborn, he'll cost at least 35 points per regular squad. currently, i can do the same with a vox (10pts IIRC) per squad and another 15pts for doctrines/vox in the platoon command.

as for rarely failing order checks with voxes, ld8 is slightly better than a 50% chance of succeeding. with rerolls that means you have approximately a 1/5 chance of failing even with the vox. i did it plenty of times yesterday due to somewhat worse than average rolling since i had 4 orders per turn. it'll happen more than you think!

Ozymandias wrote:Geez, he got a rule wrong, so crucify him cause no one else has ever gotten rules wrong before. Also, I don't think he was refering to 5 pt power weapons when he talks about crutches, that's just you making inferences with no basis in anything actually said.

I don't agree with everything Shummy said, but at least attack him for things that are real instead of putting words in his mouth and harping on a rule he got wrong.

The only thing that I could think of that "they don't get to have a special crutch to lean on any more, a crutch that they didn't use anyway because it's pointless to walk around with." would apply to would be the power weapons, because this is what the conversation was centered on, and which Shum thinks were too good before, and that nobody used before, thus matching the description of a crutch that nobody used. He also for a long time talked about vendettas tank shocking whole armies, which was why I jokingly said that this could happen in Shumhammer when I replied to someone referencing it. How is any of this putting words in his mouth, or being super harsh?

As for commissars and officers, and their roles in leadership, I am actually happy fluff-wise with commissars enforcing morale and officers directing units with orders. Unfortunately this change means that many units, particularly heavy weapons which already got hit by 2 wound (insta-killable) nerf, will be prone to running away a lot.

ubermosher wrote:Honestly you should have seen it coming when the new SM codex got rid of Rites of Battle, or whatever it was called.

Hardly.

Rites of Battle was removed because it was a stupendously overpowered and ill-thought-out rule. Ld10 for my entire army just for existing? I hope the person who came up with that rule got punched in the stomach really hard for that one. And in the context of 4th Ed, with Leadership-Based shooting, it was even worse.

No, Rites of Battle is gone because it needed to be gone. Guard Leadership Bubbles are gone because Arby can't write a proper list.

H.B.M.C. wrote:No, Rites of Battle is gone because it needed to be gone.

Funny, it's still in my Green Marines Codex(Don't actually respond to this, H.B.M.C., I'm just yankin yer chain).

The only thing that I could think of that "they don't get to have a special crutch to lean on any more, a crutch that they didn't use anyway because it's pointless to walk around with." would apply to would be the power weapons, because this is what the conversation was centered on, and which Shum thinks were too good before, and that nobody used before, thus matching the description of a crutch that nobody used. He also for a long time talked about vendettas tank shocking whole armies, which was why I jokingly said that this could happen in Shumhammer when I replied to someone referencing it. How is any of this putting words in his mouth, or being super harsh?

I was talking about the sword being a crutch that people left at home. The guard army could walk just fine, hell it could run. It just didn't crabwalk. Crabwalking is great for some armies, but the crutch wasn't going to help them crabwalk, since they didn't want to crabwalk. Hell, even with the crutch they couldn't really crabwalk.

Crutches don't help you crabwalk, you need to be a crab for that.



As for the vendetta issue I couldn't remember if it was ramming only that you had to be a tank to do or if tank shocking also applied. Also I wrote two posts mentioning it, I'm not sure if that qualifies for a long time .

ShumaGorath wrote:

The only thing that I could think of that "they don't get to have a special crutch to lean on any more, a crutch that they didn't use anyway because it's pointless to walk around with." would apply to would be the power weapons, because this is what the conversation was centered on, and which Shum thinks were too good before, and that nobody used before, thus matching the description of a crutch that nobody used. He also for a long time talked about vendettas tank shocking whole armies, which was why I jokingly said that this could happen in Shumhammer when I replied to someone referencing it. How is any of this putting words in his mouth, or being super harsh?

I was talking about the sword being a crutch that people left at home. The guard army could walk just fine, hell it could run. It just didn't crabwalk. Crabwalking is great for some armies, but the crutch wasn't going to help them crabwalk, since they didn't want to crabwalk. Hell, even with the crutch they couldn't really crabwalk.

Crutches don't help you crabwalk, you need to be a crab for that.



As for the vendetta issue I couldn't remember if it was ramming only that you had to be a tank to do or if tank shocking also applied. Also I wrote two posts mentioning it, I'm not sure if that qualifies for a long time .

Not to be an a-hole or nothing, but what are you saying? I got all confused when you started talking about all of the "crabs" and "crabwalking", "Crabwalking is great for some armies, but the crutch wasn't going to help them crabwalk, since they didn't want to crabwalk. Hell, even with the crutch they couldn't really crabwalk.". ???????????????????????????

In summary: please clarify.

Anyway, @Vladsimpaler: I don't hate you. Now, granted, I don't know you very well at all and I guess I could end up hating you later, but atm I don't .

-A.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
No, Rites of Battle is gone because it needed to be gone. Guard Leadership Bubbles are gone because Arby can't write a proper list.

First of all, I went to Arby's last night for the first time in years b/c of your nickname for Robin Cruddance. Let's just say I wish you nicknamed him Wendy.

I see it more as a trend, but we agree about Rites needing to be gone, so let's leave it at that. For me it's really not much of an issue because I used a JO CHQ more often than not as my experience has been the Company Banner and it's bubble has been much more important than LD9 down a vox or a LD10 bubble with an overpriced Commissar.

According to what I've read, the Company Standard still grants a reroll within 12", so I'd rather have that effect that the Leadership special rule. Especially with all my sergeants going to NCO school and coming out at LD8.

So instead of a reroll Ld9 24" bubble, we have a 24" reroll Ld of the squad bubble, but we also get Ld8 outside that bubble for free.

Lets face it, IG leadership only has to be good enough to prevent squads from running from shooting, we're going to run from CC no matter what (unless we have a commissar).

I use a JO w/ a Standard right now, so really not much change for me.

The only burn is from the fact that HWS/SWS are left out in the cold :( That sucks, but just means you either throw them in chimeras or keep them near the CCS's banner (so they don't run).

In summary: please clarify.

We've all covered it a lot. Basically I'm of the opinion that a five point power sword was too good because mathematically it gave the IG with them an unfair investment to return points wise at 5 points(the crutch). People responded by saying that at 5 points they saw some but not widespread use of the power sword (no one really using the crutch) and that at 10 points no one would. The point being that they can't crabwalk (close combat) nor do they want too (an army heavilly invested in its shooting ability trying to close combat rather than shooting). And that even with their crutch they can't crabwalk (Even with the cheap swords they couldn't do close combat) because they aren't crabs (a close combat army).

Basically guard both can't and even when they "could" didn't want to invest in close combat because it was a wasted investment of points over what they were better at (shooting). So the sword might as well be costed what its "worth" (that being 7 or eight points, but GW doesn't really do 6-9 any more).


Anyway, this has all been hashed over to death. Back to the thread at hand.

Didn't the rumours mention Platoon Banners, so a 6" version of the Company Standard? If this is true, and they have the same rules just with a smaller radius, that would eliminate some of the problem.

ubermosher wrote:

First of all, I went to Arby's last night for the first time in years b/c of your nickname for Robin Cruddance. Let's just say I wish you nicknamed him Wendy.

I see it more as a trend, but we agree about Rites needing to be gone, so let's leave it at that. For me it's really not much of an issue because I used a JO CHQ more often than not as my experience has been the Company Banner and it's bubble has been much more important than LD9 down a vox or a LD10 bubble with an overpriced Commissar.

According to what I've read, the Company Standard still grants a reroll within 12", so I'd rather have that effect that the Leadership special rule. Especially with all my sergeants going to NCO school and coming out at LD8.

WHAT???? Arby's is awesome! Whatever. IMO I think the sgts. getting a boost in LD makes up for the worse CHQ. Besides, IG Ld. isn't that great anyway right? And, now you can keep squads away from the HQ (say, on objectives) and they'll run less.

okay, maybe i'm not seeing something, but why do they have both a Valkyrie and a Vendetta? other than the weapon load out they do basicly the same thing. so why not make 1 model and give it all the weapon options of both. at the risk of answering my own question, i think it's just to sell more models, but i could be wrong. thoughts people?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

focusedfire wrote:H.B.M.C., Still please accept my apology. It was not my intent to insult you, either.

Perhaps a case of leaping before you looked, hmm?

Actually just trying to be nice and give the benefit of the doubt to you. I find it odd that all other replies or comments towards me used a very different FF or full focusedfire. If I can look past the glaring change on this one post and give you the benefit of the doubt, then maybe you should do the same.

Also apology doesn't=my point being invalid. Please don't assume that because I'm trying to be very nice that I'm willing take a pass on the statement you made that game design should not be about possible weapon effectiveness. I stand by my point in this instance.

alarmingrick wrote: so why not make 1 model and give it all the weapon options of both.

Umm.. they ARE making one model. Separate unit entries =!= separate models. I'm pretty sure they expect us to either convert or buy expensive upgrade sprues(like the rumoured Deff Rolla sprue) to make the Vendetta.

umm.. thanks, I think.
what i'm saying is why have two different entries for a unit that basicly is the same except for the weapon options for the 2 different entries.
edited
for me sounding like an ass

H.B.M.C. wrote:Didn't the rumours mention Platoon Banners, so a 6" version of the Company Standard? If this is true, and they have the same rules just with a smaller radius, that would eliminate some of the problem.

The rumors I have heard have said that the Platoon Banner will only give +1 combat resolution (6") :( While the Company Banner gives both +1 and a reroll (12").


Would be nice if the Platoon Banner gave a reroll as well!

ShumaGorath wrote:I would assume that it was replaced by the commissar lords ld bubble and the army wide LD increase. Having all three wouldn't be game breaking but it would go a long way towards removing moral from the game of warhammer 40k. The guard are one of the few remaining armies that really cares about leadership tests, and I always liked that aspect.


I think that they are trying to make the commanders tactical leaders and the commisars the leadership guys. They are trying to separate the roles without hampering the armies capability.

Yep. give the order generating to the command squad, and the leadership bubble to the command squad then give the commissar lord nothing but a power fist. That is a surefire way to make one unit a no-brainer, and another a dust gatherer.

Now when you build an infantry horde, you want both. One guy dishes out the orders... and the other guy makes sure the troops are paying attention. Sounds an awful lot like some of the guard novels i've read.

Leadership is primarily used as a gauge for troop bravery and fighting spirit. You don't get that from your commanding officer, you get it from your commissar.

@Alarmingrick, Your not allowed to mix the types either. The Vendettas occupy a FA slot while the Valk is a transport.

This does create the possibility of a very fast Air Cavalry army. Think of Valks as Blackhawks and of the Vendetta as Apaches.

Fast vehicles, psychic choir, and 16pt elites. Welcome to the IE(Imperial Eldar).

Will it work? I don't know.

Will it sell models? Magic eight ball says, yes.


Edit for puncuation

Shep wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:I would assume that it was replaced by the commissar lords ld bubble and the army wide LD increase. Having all three wouldn't be game breaking but it would go a long way towards removing moral from the game of warhammer 40k. The guard are one of the few remaining armies that really cares about leadership tests, and I always liked that aspect.


I think that they are trying to make the commanders tactical leaders and the commisars the leadership guys. They are trying to separate the roles without hampering the armies capability.

Yep. give the order generating to the command squad, and the leadership bubble to the command squad then give the commissar lord nothing but a power fist. That is a surefire way to make one unit a no-brainer, and another a dust gatherer.

Now when you build an infantry horde, you want both. One guy dishes out the orders... and the other guy makes sure the troops are paying attention. Sounds an awful lot like some of the guard novels i've read.

Leadership is primarily used as a gauge for troop bravery and fighting spirit. You don't get that from your commanding officer, you get it from your commissar.

I can see the reasoning for making Commissars more essential in maintaining morale in an IG army, basically helping to see that the officers' orders get carried through. Makes sense from a fluff perspective, and honestly I like the idea.

I just wish Commissars didn't cost 35points! 20 would of been so much better But regardless, I will be taking 1 commissar per platoon for sure.

focusedfire wrote:Also apology doesn't=my point being invalid. Please don't assume that because I'm trying to be very nice that I'm willing take a pass on the statement you made that game design should not be about possible weapon effectiveness. I stand by my point in this instance.

And by that token don't think that acceptance of said apology = a concession on my part.

Power Weapons still ain't worth 10 points on Guardsmen, no matter what shum people think.

warboss wrote:
as for rarely failing order checks with voxes, ld8 is slightly better than a 50% chance of succeeding. with rerolls that means you have approximately a 1/5 chance of failing even with the vox. i did it plenty of times yesterday due to somewhat worse than average rolling since i had 4 orders per turn. it'll happen more than you think!

Ok, but how many times did you fail a leadership check by rolling exactly 9?

"The Vendettas occupy a FA slot while the Valk is a transport."

are you sure? middle had them together on the FA slot page he compiled. i think what i'm also trying to get across is i thought the Vendetta couldn't transport troops too. not that i mind, it makes me consider the Valk even less though.

focusedfire wrote:@Alarmingrick, Your not allowed to mix the types either. The Vendettas occupy a FA slot while the Valk is a transport.

I think what Rick's getting at is that he's wondering why we needed to have two units when:

A). You could have easily expanded the weapon options of the Valk to include the things that Vendy gets without the need for a 'new' vehicle - especially given both of them can transport 12 models
B). A 'gunship' Valk already exists - the Vulture - so why not use that? Why create a new unit that does the same thing as the Valk, but heaps better, for only +30 points?

It comes down to redundancy (a common theme in Arby's new book it seems). The Valk doesn't need to exist now. For +30 points you get a indescribably huge boost to your firepower, and lose nothing in the process. Your armour is no different. Your special rules are no different. You're still a fast skimmer. Your transport capacity is still there. Nothing is lost (unless you honestly consider not having two glorified HK missiles a 'loss').

And what Rick's saying, or what I think he's saying, is why did we need to have a completely separate unit to achieve this goal? Why couldn't the Valk simply have:

Weapons & Equipment: Multi-Laser and 2 Hellstrike Rockets.
Options: The Multi-Laser may be ugpraded to a Lascannon for +10 points. Both Hellstrike Rockets can be upgraded to Multi-Rocket Pods for +10, Multi-Lasers for +10 or Twin-Linked Lascannons for +30 points. The Vulture may take door (sponson) mounted Heavy Bolters for +10 points. If the Hellstrike Rockets are not exchanged, the Valkyrie may take an additional two Hellstrike Rockets for +10 points.

And as I've said already, the Vendetta stinks of afterthought. We know the models are designed and finalised far in advance of the Codex - work on plastic kits starts well over a year before they get the Codex done - and it seems that the Valkyrie kit was done before the Vendetta even popped into Arby's mind, 'cause the kit sure can't make one, and that's really odd given GW's recent evolution in plastic technology. I just think the Vendetta was added late... and I can't figure out why. It's not like the Valkyrie wasn't going to sell like fething hotcakes, regardless of its rules, so why the need to go and make an uber-ugprade for a tiny amount of extra cost when the model kit itself can't do it?

Just doesn't make sense...

H.B.M.C.-

Then please, I assure that I am listening with an open mind, Explain how you would determine points costing for units and their equipment without using the possible effectiveness of said weapon to determine its value. Do this while maintaining army distinctiveness and game balance.

I am genuinely intrigued.

The reason I'm not going to answer your information request Focused is because it has already been answered by people who can spell better than I can.

As I said originally, all you have to do is read Polonius' posts, Janthkin's posts, and half a dozen other people's posts (basically everyone who was telling Shummy to be quiet) and you'll see that the effectivness (or lack thereof) of a Guard power weapon within a Guard squad is congruent with a low points cost (ie. 5 points), and it is not 3 times as powerful as shum of us would have you believe.

So, as I said, I'm not going to go into it because there's no need for me to go into it - the ground has already been covered a few pages back, and I do not wish to rehash it. You can call that cop out if you wish - that's fine - but really, head back to page 18/19, as I said, and it's all there.

@ H.B.M.C.
you nailed my erratic thoughts like a laser!
so basicly, to sum it up:
1: "It comes down to redundancy"

2: "the Vendetta stinks of afterthought"

3: and basicly "Just doesn't make sense..." there's no good reason.

it would have helped, to a point, if they did take up different slots in the FOC.

H.M.B.C.-

Can the Vendetta/vulture start the game with a unit loaded?

Can it do this and deep strike with said unit?

Seriously, though, I agree that the valk/vendetta smacks of rhino/razorback, but hey its GW. Us being upset at them for doing things like this is like the Scotts being upset with the French the time they failed to keep their old alliance agreements. Basically if we don't learn the first time then its our fault if we keep falling for it.

This brings to mind a question. Does the Valk/Vendetta kit come as different boxes or can you just buy one and build both?

B). A 'gunship' Valk already exists - the Vulture - so why not use that? Why create a new unit that does the same thing as the Valk, but heaps better, for only +30 points?

The vendetta came about because they didn't want to make two giant plane models. Thus the vulture which is substantially different from the valk is kept forge world and the vendetta just shows up.
That said what they should have done is just given the valk weapon options. So instead of "vendetta" it's "valkyrie with lascanons".

focusedfire wrote:H.B.M.C.-

Then please, I assure that I am listening with an open mind, Explain how you would determine points costing for units and their equipment without using the possible effectiveness of said weapon to determine its value. Do this while maintaining army distinctiveness and game balance.

I am genuinely intrigued.

Read Janthkin's post about 2/3 of the way down on page 21, its a fairly good explanation.

kadun wrote:

focusedfire wrote:H.B.M.C.-

Then please, I assure that I am listening with an open mind, Explain how you would determine points costing for units and their equipment without using the possible effectiveness of said weapon to determine its value. Do this while maintaining army distinctiveness and game balance.

I am genuinely intrigued.

Read Janthkin's post about 2/3 of the way down on page 21, its a fairly good explanation.

Sort of. It muddies the issue a bit too by bringing in considerably more variables then just mathematic effectiveness and army composition possibilities.

"Can the Vendetta/vulture start the game with a unit loaded? "

the Vulture can't transport anything but lots of Dakka. before the Vendetta, just the Valk could transport troops.

alarmingrick wrote:"Can the Vendetta/vulture start the game with a unit loaded? "

the Vulture can't transport anything but lots of Dakka. before the Vendetta, just the Valk could transport troops.

Where does it say that? All the rumors I know of state that both can transport.

ShumaGorath wrote:

kadun wrote:

focusedfire wrote:H.B.M.C.-

Then please, I assure that I am listening with an open mind, Explain how you would determine points costing for units and their equipment without using the possible effectiveness of said weapon to determine its value. Do this while maintaining army distinctiveness and game balance.

I am genuinely intrigued.

Read Janthkin's post about 2/3 of the way down on page 21, its a fairly good explanation.

Sort of. It muddies the issue a bit too by bringing in considerably more variables then just mathematic effectiveness and army composition possibilities.

How so?

@Kadun, then read my reply to that post on the next page please.

@Alarmingrick- Sorry, last info I had put the Valk as a transport. If they are both FA it is definitely,IMO, a money move rather than a game move.

okay Shuma, i'm remembering to be nice. you're not helping focusedfire see the point by giving your opinion of what was written. maybe it won't be too "muddied" for him. let's let him form his own opinion. i think he's bright.

kadun wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

kadun wrote:

focusedfire wrote:H.B.M.C.-

Then please, I assure that I am listening with an open mind, Explain how you would determine points costing for units and their equipment without using the possible effectiveness of said weapon to determine its value. Do this while maintaining army distinctiveness and game balance.

I am genuinely intrigued.

Read Janthkin's post about 2/3 of the way down on page 21, its a fairly good explanation.

Sort of. It muddies the issue a bit too by bringing in considerably more variables then just mathematic effectiveness and army composition possibilities.

How so?

The more variables that are pulling the point values up and down the harder it is to pin down an accurate value for what the upgrade should cause.

If they are both FA it is definitely,IMO, a money move rather than a game move.

That would make more sense if you could even make the model with the valk box.

okay Shuma, i'm remembering to be nice. you're not helping focusedfire see the point by giving your opinion of what was written.

Yeah, but I think he's read that post. The point being that while it's a fairly good "explanation" its not particularly focused on doing much beyond expanding the scope of what you need to consider when considering cost balance. It also doesn't reference previous posts (like mine or polonius') or ones that occur after which have been an integral part of the discussion.

"Where does it say that? All the rumors I know of state that both can transport. "

Shuma, since when can a Vulture transport? go reread your IA1! i'm remembering rule 1! but damn it's hard...

focusedfire wrote:H.M.B.C.

I'm going to assume that was an intentional joke otherwise the Great God of Irony just found you.

focusedfire wrote:Can the Vendetta/vulture start the game with a unit loaded?

Can it do this and deep strike with said unit?

Can't say for sure. As far as I know, or we know really, they're both FA choices, meaning that one is redundant and the other isn't. I just can't see the use for an AV12 Fast Skimmer 12-person Transport with Deep Strike and Scout armed with a Multi-Laser and two One-Shot Rockets at 100 points when for 30 points more I get an AV12 Fast Skimmer 12-person Transport with Deep Strike and Scout armed with three TL-Lascannons!

focusedfire wrote:Seriously, though, I agree that the valk/vendetta smacks of rhino/razorback, but hey its GW. Us being upset at them for doing things like this is like the Scotts being upset with the French the time they failed to keep their old alliance agreements. Basically if we don't learn the first time then its our fault if we keep falling for it.

The Razorback is a weird thing though. The Razorback first showed up before the Marines even had a Codex (Codex: Space Wolves existed, but the closest regular Marines had to a Codex was 'Codex: Army Lists' that came in the 2nd Ed box). In fact, at the time, there were only three races with Codices - Space Wolves, Eldar and Orks. Codex Ultramarines came about later, and included the Razorback proper, but for a time this was a new unit first introduced in White Dwarf (WD175 IIRC). But even if we try to compare them, consider that the Razorback loses something for its guns - transport capacity. The Vendy loses nothing*, that's the really strange part. I would love to know what was running through Arby's head when he thought this unit up.

*As far as we know. I'm quite happy to retract everything I've said if the rules, when we see them, indicate otherwise.

focusedfire wrote:This brings to mind a question. Does the Valk/Vendetta kit come as different boxes or can you just buy one and build both?

There's no Vendy kit. Having looked over the sprues (admittedly, this was a month or so back) the only weapons present are nose Multi-Laser, nose Lascannon, door HBs, the Rocket Pod things and the two Hellstrikes. This, again, reinforces my theory that the Vendy was created much later, well after the Valk kit was finalised.

And it's very strange...

ShumaGorath wrote:

alarmingrick wrote:"Can the Vendetta/vulture start the game with a unit loaded? "

the Vulture can't transport anything but lots of Dakka. before the Vendetta, just the Valk could transport troops.

Where does it say that? All the rumors I know of state that both can transport.

When Rick says Vulture he means the proper Vulture, not just a substitute word for Vendetta.

focusedfire wrote:@Kadun, then read my reply to that post on the next page please.

I've read your reply, your argument did not sway me to view your position as the correct one.

And as I do not want to rehash those arguments again, I will cease participating in discussion on that subject.

Her Majesty's Buxom Commissar wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

alarmingrick wrote:"Can the Vendetta/vulture start the game with a unit loaded? "

the Vulture can't transport anything but lots of Dakka. before the Vendetta, just the Valk could transport troops.

Where does it say that? All the rumors I know of state that both can transport.

When Rick says Vulture he means the proper Vulture, not just a substitute word for Vendetta.

Yeah I apologize, I read vendetta when it said vend and vulture.

kadun wrote:I've read your reply, your argument did not sway me to view your position as the correct one.

No expectation of agreement. Just can you see the point of things being costed on their effectiveness.

I'm now of the opinion that such costs should possibly be split between the units that synergize. Janthkin and apparently HBMC think such power-ups or synergies should not exist. I feel that each army is more than the sum of its parts and is why one basic troop from an army will totally own another equally costed basic troop but when such armies are assembled into a fighting force the battle can go to the Army with the weaker basic troops.

Again, no expectation of agreement, just asking if you can see some validity as to the basis of my stance.

focusedfire wrote:

kadun wrote:I've read your reply, your argument did not sway me to view your position as the correct one.

No expectation of agreement. Just can you see the point of things being costed on their effectiveness.

I'm now of the opinion that such costs should possibly be split between the units that synergize. Janthkin and apparently HBMC think such power-ups or synergies should not exist. I feel that each army is more than the sum of its parts and is why one basic troop from an army will totally own another equally costed basic troop but when such armies are assembled into a fighting force the battle can go to the Army with the weaker basic troops.

Again, no expectation of agreement, just asking if you can see some validity as to the basis of my stance.

Perhaps the best solution from a design point of view would have been to make power weapons 5 points, and adding the following to Creed's rules: "All power weapons in the army now cost +5 points."

I don't think that Janth or I don't want unit synergy to occur, we just don't like the idea that basic troops should have to pay an increased points cost for something that gets better only when you 'unlock' an ability via a special character.

Special characters should never factor into the balance of a whole list. If a Special Character alters the makeup of the army in any way, that should be factored into their cost, not the cost of mundane items on the off chance you bring said special character.

I agree that in most cases units and even whole armies are greater than the sum of their parts, but if Creed's going to awesome-i-fy Guard in HTH, don't make Guardsmen pay through the nose for semi-decent HTH weapons when they don't take Creed. And don't do it especially when the reason for the overpriced items is to 'balance' or somehow 'account' for Creed's abilities.

That's not game design. That's bad design.

Kadun, Now that I could really agree with. You would have no doubt about why something costed as it did.

As an aside, is anyone getting really annoyed at the way I seem to be ending every post recently with a single line conclusion/summarising thought or statement? I'm starting to annoy myself with it. Maybe my current moratorium on 'BYE's is causing it.

yep, need the "BYE". i keep thinking you're someone else without it.

I think the Vendetta is a seperate vehicle is the same reason the Hellhound has three names now and we have 666 Leman Russ variants. Apparently changing the main weapons means you have a whole new name!

At least the balance with the 'detta is that is has to stay still to fire everything, so it has similar gimpage to the Falcon, but was designed for 5th... /makes my head hurt.

Anyways, have we learned if either V can be taken as a dedicated transport?

"...and we have 666 Leman Russ variants..."
oh great! now the Russ is Satanic!

If you're getting sick of saying BYE, I could do it for you.

Nah it's temporary. Commissar Calgar's away fishing. When he returns (in 3D, as promised), it too shall return.

The Falcon thing was very silly - a turret that can't fire both its guns at the same time. They should've made the Pulse-Laser Co-Axial and allowed it to always fire.

But there's neither here nor there.

How many points is a Psyker Squad as that Drop in Leadership ability is pretty awesome. I mean being able to drop leadership and then add in all the Pinning weapons.

I could see that being very nasty.

Might give a reason to take Sniper Rifles in squads.

Emphasis on 'might'.

Why can't you just stick some Lazcannons on the Valk model?

-A.

There is a lot of weapons already that create pinning checks.

Recklessfable wrote:I think the Vendetta is a seperate vehicle is the same reason the Hellhound has three names now and we have 666 Leman Russ variants. Apparently changing the main weapons means you have a whole new name!

At least the balance with the 'detta is that is has to stay still to fire everything, so it has similar gimpage to the Falcon, but was designed for 5th... /makes my head hurt.

Anyways, have we learned if either V can be taken as a dedicated transport?

Aren't Vendettas rumored to be Fast?

I could see a army of imperial guard based around the psychic choir and forcing pinning and leadership checks.

augfubuoy wrote:Why can't you just stick some Lazcannons on the Valk model?

What, just for the hell of it, or to use as a Vendy?

Hmm...from Warseer, they seemed to have removed points values from a lot of things.

It says that a squad of 1 Overseer and 4 Psykers is 60 points. Thinking about it, even a -4 to LD is pretty devastating. At most you'd add like 1 or 2 Psykers, making the squad around like 80 or so points. Then you give something -6 LD, meaning that, barring divine intervention, the squad affected is going to meet the business end of some sniper rifles.

And actually, I was thinking. The other Sanctioned Psyker ability is pretty good too, even if it is just a blast.

6 Psykers=Str 6 blast. For some reason the stuff is kind of mixed up on Warseer. I can't tell if it's a Heavy 5, Blast in which case it's insanely powerful, or if it's a Heavy 1, 5" blast in which case it is still quite powerful.

Middle, can you get us out of the fog on this?

It's almost kind of funny to think that Sanctioned Psykers and Techpriests have the potential to save the Elites section!

And in all honestly, I wouldn't mind, because 3x Squads of 6 sanctioned psykers means at least 3 Str 6 blasts. Which will definitely be fun.


Hmm...Have a Primaris Psyker as an HQ, and then 3 squads of 9 Sanctioned Psykers. Psykorama...is that even a word? If not, I copyright it!

Neconilis, I'm pretty certain that both the Vendetta and Valk are fast. I think the only acceptable alternative to that vehicle type would be "Flyer."

CK

Vladsimpaler wrote:It says that a squad of 1 Overseer and 4 Psykers is 60 points. Thinking about it, even a -4 to LD is pretty devastating. At most you'd add like 1 or 2 Psykers, making the squad around like 80 or so points. Then you give something -6 LD, meaning that, barring divine intervention, the squad affected is going to meet the business end of some sniper rifles.

And it's a flat 36" isn't it... radius? 'Cause that's a really long way. A 6 foot circle of Leadership bending. And as for -4 being devastating, -2 was pretty devastating! Remember Fear of Darkness? This could be more powerful as it's everyone in 36". Wow...

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:Neconilis, I'm pretty certain that both the Vendetta and Valk are fast. I think the only acceptable alternative to that vehicle type would be "Flyer."

CK

That's what I thought, I just keep hearing people say it has to sit dead still to fire everything and I keep wondering if I'd missed something.

Just people not understanding what "fast" vehicles do apparently.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:It says that a squad of 1 Overseer and 4 Psykers is 60 points. Thinking about it, even a -4 to LD is pretty devastating. At most you'd add like 1 or 2 Psykers, making the squad around like 80 or so points. Then you give something -6 LD, meaning that, barring divine intervention, the squad affected is going to meet the business end of some sniper rifles.

And it's a flat 36" isn't it... radius? 'Cause that's a really long way. A 6 foot circle of Leadership bending. And as for -4 being devastating, -2 was pretty devastating! Remember Fear of Darkness? This could be more powerful as it's everyone in 36". Wow...

If it's a 36" radius...um...wow...that's insanely powerful. It says on Warseer 'drop LD of enemy in 24', though, so I'm not 100% sure.

If it's the 36'' radius, then:

1. Put Psyker dudes in Valkyrie
2. Fly Psyker dudes over enemy lines
3. ???
4. Profit!

Unfortunately (or fortunately, I'm not sure) I wasn't around during Fear of Darkness, but the way that you reference it means that, well, it was pretty powerful.

:edit: And as for Valkyries not being good, I'm thinking that 2 of the Str 4 Ap 6 Large Blasts, and a Multilaser, could go a long way vs. hordes. But maybe that's just me.

:edit 2: Theoretically, one could just do the uber Psyker bomb (if this is truly how it works) and have some amoeba squads with Primaris Psykers using the Nightshroud ability, and then a butt load of Leman Russes with Camo behind the amoebas.

You want to shoot me? Oh wait, I'm sorry, the squads that you could have shot me with are all either running away, or pinned. Oh, that squad wants to shoot? Good luck, you need two 1's!

H.B.M.C. wrote:

augfubuoy wrote:Why can't you just stick some Lazcannons on the Valk model?

What, just for the hell of it, or to use as a Vendy?

Oh, you're right. Just for the hell of it... doh!

Of course the Valk would then be used for a Vendetta!! I was just pointing out that all you would need to do would be buy the Valk and slap on some lascannons and *BAM!!!*
you have a Vendy. In which case, don't even worry about an accessory sprue, just worry about scrounging up some extra lascannons.

-A.

"That's what I thought, I just keep hearing people say it has to sit dead still to fire everything and I keep wondering if I'd missed something. "

@Neconilis
if the Valk/Vendetta move 6" or less(combat speed) it can fire all of it's weapons. if it moves 6"-12"(cruising speed) it may fire one weapon plus all defensive weapons (str 4 or less). if it moves more than 12", less 18"(flat out) it can't fire anything. so as long as you move 6" or less, yes you can fire everything. and all of this only applies as long as they're Fast Attack choices. which it seems like they're going to be at this point.

Optimal size of Psyker squads, probably the 80 pt -6 squads. Still wound MEQ on a 2+ with their blast, and even Ld10 will have a hard time passing a test at a Ld4.

Now, you have to ask yourself, do you need to have them in chimeras? Or just keep them out of LOS of firepower?


Pinning weapons, Griffions are good, perhaps 5pt mortars in command squads? And of course, lets not forget, good old fashion firepower will make them take a morale test and run away.

I like the combo with the Primaris Psyker, that sounds like a lot of fun.

It is nice to see IG getting some useful psykers


PS. Honestly, against certain armies, this will be brutal. Any army that does not have wide access to fearless/atsknf, and has small numbers of squads will have a large % of their army pinned/running. Poor Necrons.

By the way, I realize my post(s) have been a little late in coming, and I apologize. It's just that I can't watch this thread that often and must go do other things, and by the time I get back on I still have a viewpoint on 1 topic while the thread has moved on already. Sorry. Aside from that, I think the Psyker units will, instead of affecting all units in a radius, with the -Ld. ability, they will affect 'X' number of enemy units within 24".

-A.

alarmingrick wrote:"That's what I thought, I just keep hearing people say it has to sit dead still to fire everything and I keep wondering if I'd missed something. "

@Neconilis
if the Valk/Vendetta move 6" or less(combat speed) it can fire all of it's weapons. if it moves 6"-12"(cruising speed) it may fire one weapon plus all defensive weapons (str 4 or less). if it moves more than 12", less 18"(flat out) it can't fire anything. so as long as you move 6" or less, yes you can fire everything. and all of this only applies as long as they're Fast Attack choices. which it seems like they're going to be at this point.

Actually being classified as a "fast" vehicle has nothing to do with being in the Fast Attack Force Org Slot. It has to do with the vehicle type: Skimmer, Fast.

alarmingrick wrote:if the Valk/Vendetta move 6" or less(combat speed) it can fire all of it's weapons. if it moves 6"-12"(cruising speed) it may fire one weapon plus all defensive weapons (str 4 or less). if it moves more than 12", less 18"(flat out) it can't fire anything. so as long as you move 6" or less, yes you can fire everything. and all of this only applies as long as they're Fast Attack choices. which it seems like they're going to be at this point.

Fast Attack choice doesn't enter into it. If it says they are a fast vehicle those rules apply. If they were Heavy Support it could still move 6" and fire everything.

Are people saying that the psychic squad affects ALL units in range? I thought it was a targeted ability.

"Fast Attack choice doesn't enter into it. If it says they are a fast vehicle those rules apply. If they were Heavy Support it could still move 6" and fire everything."

and

"Actually being classified as a "fast" vehicle has nothing to do with being in the Fast Attack Force Org Slot. It has to do with the vehicle type: Skimmer, Fast."

to you both i say "doh!!" i swear that's what i meant, but then when the fingers started to move....(sigh)

I would assume that the psykers are not affecting a radius, mostly so that I do not get my hopes up but partially because they should have the common sense not to. It would seem that they decided to give us something that makes nob bikers flee though.

Ok, seeing as how I'd rather not search through this thread due to a lack of time (I'd do it otherwise, I assure you) could someone confirm if IG platoons still require an officer of some sort along with the troops choices.

they do. the officer and his squad ate 1 KP total.

Even as a single-target power, the Psyker Choir's Leadership-wrecker has potential, provided it works as we have been thusfar led to believe. On the other foot, the choir itself will be weak against any counterattack, with their pitiful T2 and with every death hurting the attacks' effectiveness.

I wonder if the power will count as a psychic shooting attack. If not, could we not interpose models between the Choir and the target to grant them a cover save, without giving the targets one?

alarmingrick wrote:"That's what I thought, I just keep hearing people say it has to sit dead still to fire everything and I keep wondering if I'd missed something. "

@Neconilis
if the Valk/Vendetta move 6" or less(combat speed) it can fire all of it's weapons. if it moves 6"-12"(cruising speed) it may fire one weapon plus all defensive weapons (str 4 or less). if it moves more than 12", less 18"(flat out) it can't fire anything. so as long as you move 6" or less, yes you can fire everything. and all of this only applies as long as they're Fast Attack choices. which it seems like they're going to be at this point.

I think alarmingrick may be on to something here. It adds to the huey/apache comparison from before, really; Think of it: the valk can move 12" and fire all of it's weapons when equipped with rocket pods, allowing it to deploy it's troops quickly and only be hit on a 6 in cc... Fact is, cc is the best way for most armies to take down tanks, and they won't be doing that with the valks. If you feel like wasting your meltas in your own backfield, my russ variants and artillery will be blowing you to smithereens. if you ignore the valk, it'll zip around your rear, killing of stuff in the backfield and generally being hard to get rid of, supporting the troops who just got out (and will probably be equipped to deal with tanks); it's a basic combined arms appoach. Not to mention that, with a 24" fast move in the last turn, there's no objective it can't contest (vendetta too, I know)

The vendetta functions more like the apache: a slower moving gunship with massive firepower. if you move 6" in the opponent's backfield, he can probably charge something at you, and there's plenty of things that have 4+ strength, enabling for quite a few glances (at the very least), where the valk is pretty much impervious and can use all of it's weapons. I can see it outflanking, and then moving slowly all gaming while sniping at enemy armour; I don't think we'll see it moving 12" most of the time since it won't be very effective at that speed.

Basically, the vendetta is "only" priced at 130 becasue it won't be using both it's speed and it's firepower. Usually GW makes you pay through the nose for flexibility, but I think this one may have slipped by. The valk can do both at the same time, making it relatively expensive when compared to the vendetta.
I'm still not sure it's worth it, but I think both gunships were designed with very different roles in mind, and that the valk supplements it's cargo's abilities a bit better.

PS: one of my flyers wll have the guy from "V for Vendetta" painted on the nose I think.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
And it's a flat 36" isn't it... radius? 'Cause that's a really long way. A 6 foot circle of Leadership bending. And as for -4 being devastating, -2 was pretty devastating! Remember Fear of Darkness? This could be more powerful as it's everyone in 36". Wow...

Don't get your hopes up yet. I haven't seen the codex but I'm not expecting such a drastic effect for so few points. Judging by what they did with other units, such a unit would have costed 300 points. I bet it is a shooting attack against a single target.

Psyker battle squad target one unit within line of sight. This applies for whichever power they use.

Soulstorm is heavy 1 and large blast. S=number of psykers ( Don't count the Overseer ).


For Weaken Resolve I don't see why you would need that ninth psyker. -8 is the most you can affect Ld by, the -9 would be a waste of points.

I can agree that you have an extra wound in there to preserve your -8, but i'm thinking the amount of firepower vs T3 and five up save. Think how badly your platoons get chewed up, and that is without someone deliberately trying to wipe them off the board.

As for the Ld bubble, It's not gone completely in my eyes. If a squad is within the old Ld bubble range / new order range of your CCS then you can order that squad to turn round and Get back into the fight! The immediate regroup and can shoot and assault as normal makes it a winner for me. Ignores under half strength / nearby enemy too. The only drawback now is that your squad will be 2d6" further back.

Plus you have your 12" CCS banner to re-roll morale / pinning in the first place and then if you fail you can re-roll your vox orders. Granted it uses up an order, but I can't believe i'm going to say this: There is more than just firepower in the IG codex.

Valk vs Vend. I can't see anyone giving up 2 TL lascannons for a a pair of one use large blast missiles, so i'm going to ignore that upgrade.

Valk is the anti-infantry one.
2 large blasts + 3 MLaser and 6 HB shots if it moves 6" every turn.
2 large blasts and your choice of MLaser or HB ( I call that the Chimera conundrum. S vs AP ) if you move up to 12" every turn.

Vend is the anti-tank one. 3 TL lascannons ( and a pair of Ordnance damage S8 rockets. One use ) if it moves up to 6" every turn.
1TL lascannon if it moves 12".

Valk is for me the winner for transporting troops. It can still get it's cargo to where they need to be while still firing effectively ( 12" a turn )

Vend can still transport the same amount of guys as the valk but with it going 6" to fire all 3 TL lascannons it's not making the most of dropping off it's troops. If it does drop off it's troops ( 12" move ) it's only firing one TL lascannon.

The valk can have a single lascannon to bring it in 15pts cheaper than the Vend. Not TL but you get a pair of blast markers in there too. If you are gonna be 12" shooting, Why are you doing it in a Vend?

Also if you go with the deepstrike. The same applies since you have moved at cruising speed.

Valk goes 12" with anti-infantry. And drops off 12 troopers.

Vend goes 6" with anti-tank.

There is that Scout move though. It can get your Vends close enough to drop off. But then your not getting the most out of your 48" punch with the lascannons, and you'll be a little too close to the enemys cc attacks for comfort.

Of course stick a 50pt squad in a Vend makes for a last turn scorer. Makes it's 180 cost as it should have been, plus you can score from inside it.

Do Commisar Lords carry out summary executions?

And, still the fool who loads up on HQ wargear, any info as to what options are available to Company Commanders, Primaris Psykers, and Commisar Lords?

I am a little disappointed that, if I understand correctly, the Primaris Psyker does not have a Psychic Hood option. I was hoping to keep my DH's out of my guard army, but I regularly play against a couple of Eldar players... Mind war has the ability to really cripple now with the ability to pick out officers, voxcasters, heavy weapon teams, etc.

Soulstorm...Heavy 1, Large Blast...

Heck yes, I'll pay 80 points for a Str 6 Ap d6 Large Blast.

In fact, I'll take 3.


Heck, speaking of Mind War, if you have an allied Eldar army with your sanctioned psykers, imagine Weaken Resolve vs. Abaddon/huge monster with LD/whatever, and then using Mind War on it!

I mean, you reduce LD by like 6, and then you use Mind War on the same person affected by Weaken Resolve.

Now that's an easy way to take down those CC monsters.

:edit: @ ubermosher - Just use Weaken Resolve on the Farseer in question. I'm pretty sure that it's hard to pass psychic tests on LD4.

ubermosher wrote:I am a little disappointed that, if I understand correctly, the Primaris Psyker does not have a Psychic Hood option. I was hoping to keep my DH's out of my guard army, but I regularly play against a couple of Eldar players... Mind war has the ability to really cripple now with the ability to pick out officers, voxcasters, heavy weapon teams, etc.

I'd be surprised if the Primaris does not have that bit of wargear, the model has what appears to be a psychic hood, at least to my inexpert eyes.

Even the 2nd Ed Primaris model had a psychic hood, and the new one isn't that different. It was odd though, as the Primaris in 2nd Ed could only have one Wargear Card, so he had to choose between a Force Rod or a Psychic Hood even when the model clearly had both. History is repeating itself again it seems.

Recklessfable wrote:I think the Vendetta is a seperate vehicle is the same reason the Hellhound has three names now and we have 666 Leman Russ variants. Apparently changing the main weapons means you have a whole new name!

That was always true, look at the Land Raider Crusader and the Predator Annihilator. Largely this was because GW was too stingy to put all the bitz in one box and sold them as separate products.

Another thought just occurred to me... how much popularity will Valks/Vends lose when people realize that they'll have to roll a dangerous terrain test every time then start/end their movement in difficult terrain?

They won't be popular in CoD boards.

ubermosher wrote:I am a little disappointed that, if I understand correctly, the Primaris Psyker does not have a Psychic Hood option. I was hoping to keep my DH's out of my guard army, but I regularly play against a couple of Eldar players... Mind war has the ability to really cripple now with the ability to pick out officers, voxcasters, heavy weapon teams, etc.

I'd take sanctioned psyker unit over a grey knight hood. Stopping 1/3 of enemy psychic powers versus, stopping nearly 100% of them if you got a weaken resolve off. most marquis psychic powers have a shorter range than weaken resolve, and you can just fire it out of a chimera.

ubermosher wrote:Another thought just occurred to me... how much popularity will Valks/Vends lose when people realize that they'll have to roll a dangerous terrain test every time then start/end their movement in difficult terrain?

They won't be popular in CoD boards.

How exactly would that work anyway? If the base is in terrain, any part of the model, the hull? Since I think the wings overhang the base you could have a serious traffic jam. How wide is a Valk exactly?

pretty darn big if it's the same size as the forgeworld one. someone posted these pics on warseer a while back and i saved them (i'm trying to figure out if a stormlord and two valks/vends will fit in a GW carrying case). i'd go with the base. i'll be damned if i let people manhandle a $58 model on a 6 inch high stilt to see if it's in terrain.

Gestalt wrote:
How exactly would that work anyway? If the base is in terrain, any part of the model, the hull? Since I think the wings overhang the base you could have a serious traffic jam. How wide is a Valk exactly?

I would think it would be judged by the base. I haven't seen anyone ever make Dangerous Terrain tests on Falcons/etc because part of it was flying over rubble.

my FW Valk is 9 3/4" from wing tip to wing tip.
12" from sensor array to tail tip.

That is such a sweet model.

Don't plan on using any (doesn't really fit in my renegade, rag-tag theme) but I may still pick some up for APOC or something.

Ozymandias wrote:That is such a sweet model.

Don't plan on using any (doesn't really fit in my renegade, rag-tag theme) but I may still pick some up for APOC or something.

Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and get 6 of em.

If it's worth doing, it's worth over doing!

gak, I'm going to have rethink things a bit if the model is that big. I want to upgrade my entire Elysian V Company to airmobile status but if their birds are that big I'm going to have a hard time explaining the girl why my silly plastic kits are on the bed, couch and dining table.

@BrookM
put LEDs on them and explain to her they're lamps!

alarmingrick wrote:@BrookM
put LEDs on them and explain to her they're lamps!

Mind you, she's not a thicky, she's been in the hobby longer than me.

I guess I'll just have to bribe her with some things.

Maybe some Valkyries?

Even the 2nd Ed Primaris model had a psychic hood, and the new one isn't that different. It was odd though, as the Primaris in 2nd Ed could only have one Wargear Card, so he had to choose between a Force Rod or a Psychic Hood even when the model clearly had both. History is repeating itself again it seems.

If he was a level 3 psyker...he got up to 3 wargear cards.

Capt K

"Mind you, she's not a thicky,...."
didn't mean too imply she was. sorry if it came off as such.
my wife will go for it if she thinks it's "the new rage". that was more my angle. my favorite fallback is always chocolate. can't afford the diamonds...

Hey middle sorry if i missed this but whats the profile for the missle pods really want to know and i was just wondering if you could do a big summary thread so we don't have 2 go searching through about 30 pages to find everything

No offence taken at all Rick. Though personally I might go down the route of a new wireless guitar and drum sticks for Rock Band.

Bloodthirster wrote:Hey middle sorry if i missed this but whats the profile for the missle pods really want to know and i was just wondering if you could do a big summary thread so we don't have 2 go searching through about 30 pages to find everything

Actually Middle, you might want to consider editing your original post by pasting in your full breakdown posts from the middle of the thread. That way they're easy to find as the first post.

actually at the top of the news and rumors page Frazzled compiled all the rumors and all of what middle has reported in one place.

"Compiled IG Rumors at 3/18/09 and updated 3/24/09"

saves alot of hunting! and thanks again Frazzled and middle! my hats off to the both of you.

I spent some time today calculating up the AV14 kill percentages for a slew of the units in the new IG Codex. It's pretty long and I don't want to spam this thread with it, but figured I'd direct folks who want to take a look at it here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/234631.page

Most interesting results are the vast superiority of CCS and PCS Squads with 4 meltas in killing tanks to just about anything else as well as the sad performance of the Vendetta compared to other units. And then there's the confirmation that Lascannon Heavy Weapon squads still suck.

So here's an interesting one. With the new vehicle squadrons what happens if you mix 1 demolisher and 1 normal russ in a squadron and you get assaulted.

Now you have 2 different back armor numbers. So it seems like you would get to allocate hits before making armor penetration roles. Which means that a demolisher can negate 50% of the strength 4 hits your two tank squadron has taken.

You split the combatants and the fight whoever they are actually assaulting?

A YMDC thread brings up a point that the valk is on a tall stand, how would troops embark if it has to be withing 2" of the access point? If its that low to the ground, its supposed advantage of height over cover goes away. Plus you have to fit that 10" or so through terrain.

Sorry if this has been asked before but

What happened to the plastic stormtroopers?

second wave?

planet strike?

New Inquisition?

Anybody heard anything?

Heavygear wrote:Sorry if this has been asked before but

What happened to the plastic stormtroopers?

second wave?

planet strike?

New Inquisition?

Anybody heard anything?

Planetstrike.

There's been a couple of reports of people having seen the plastic Stormtroopers though they have been of the "my friend saw them and says they look awesome" type of reports. Anybody heard any sighting reports anywhere that are a little more reliable?

Gestalt wrote:A YMDC thread brings up a point that the valk is on a tall stand, how would troops embark if it has to be withing 2" of the access point? If its that low to the ground, its supposed advantage of height over cover goes away. Plus you have to fit that 10" or so through terrain.

1) I'm hoping people will play this reasonably, or that it includes two stands. My reasoning would be: within 2" of the stand, symbolizing rapelling lines (who probably have winches to get back up ); it also means there's no ridculous shenanigans where people start measuring from the wing tips or something (anyone looking to extend a psker squad's range? ); by looking at it, the whole flying base stand looks to be nicely postioned within 2" of all access points. Either that or VTOL capability.

2) It's a skimmer, so it can move over trrain, it just can't end it's move in it (without taking a difficult terraint test).

Nothing hugely revelatory, but here's a scale shot of the new plastic Valkyrie (wiv a oomie!) to go with the shots of the resin FW one that warboss posted on page 27.

That's one mad tall stand! Awesome!

It does make it stand out from the other rubbish that is passed off as fast skimmers these days.

Yep, but at least my firewarriors don't have to worry about finding tall buildings to disembark from. Though...we don't get to deep strike.

in the last codex, for the sacrifice of 1 doctrine point and 20pts a squad you could buy army-wide carapace armor. neing like that the new dex?

Actually the height of the Valk will make the Vets I model on repelling wires look less ridiculous.

CommissarKhaine wrote:1) I'm hoping people will play this reasonably, or that it includes two stands. My reasoning would be: within 2" of the stand, symbolizing rapelling lines (who probably have winches to get back up ); it also means there's no ridculous shenanigans where people start measuring from the wing tips or something (anyone looking to extend a psker squad's range? ); by looking at it, the whole flying base stand looks to be nicely postioned within 2" of all access points. Either that or VTOL capability.

The problem is more no matter which way you play it, even when both sides agree, you get some rule issues. If you let them disembark from the stand, can they also disembark on top of a 6" building? Are valks now immune to melta guns being <6"? If guns have a vertical traverse of 45 degrees, you have a nice dead zone underneath. I hope it gets FAQed, though it will probably be in GW's vague way that doesn't solve anything. It may not be an issue in friendly games, but in a tournament it could be interesting. I've met 3-4 ways of treating the old HW teams at tourneys, probably as many interpretations here too.

The Angry Commissar wrote:in the last codex, for the sacrifice of 1 doctrine point and 20pts a squad you could buy army-wide carapace armor. neing like that the new dex?

Company Command Squads and Vets get the option for Carapace. And of course Storm Troopers have it.

Scottywan82 wrote:Actually the height of the Valk will make the Vets I model on repelling wires look less ridiculous.

lol, so you have a bunch of catachan veteran pole dancers currently???

Her Majesty's Buxom Commissar wrote:Nothing hugely revelatory, but here's a scale shot of the new plastic Valkyrie (wiv a oomie!) to go with the shots of the resin FW one that warboss posted on page 27.

i think you look better in your avatar picture personally...

although the base looks quite sturdy, i think i won't be using it. i'm still too afraid of the fall the model could take with gamer klutzs around the table (myself included). if anyone raises a stink, i'll just ask them to mount their falcons and devilfishes about 6 inches up from the table also. as for the model, i do notice one difference between that and the FW ones from the pics (i don't own either). the FW ones have a flat surface between the tail booms where the engines end; i think i like it better without it.

The Angry Commissar wrote:in the last codex, for the sacrifice of 1 doctrine point and 20pts a squad you could buy army-wide carapace armor. neing like that the new dex?

Roughly 30 points per Veteran Squad that you want to upgrade according to the strongly confirmed rumors. No more army wide mandated upgrades or Doctrines. Carapace armor can also be bought for Platoon Command Squads but not to your Company Command Squad (aka HQ slot) if my reading comprehension is still accurate.

CCS are the ones who can have camo and carapace. ( IC's get it too )

PCS have flak and can't upgrade.

And with the Valk when you disembark it it is moving flat out you deploy using deepstrike from along the path of the Valk. Nice and easy to do. But i'll have to get back to you on the ' 2" from a door '

Got a day off tomorrow so I can mosey on down and take a peek.

Hey Middle, could you find out:


-If Primaris Psykers have any other Psychic powers

-If Sanctioned Psykers have any other Psychic powers

-Full list of Commissar Lord gear

-Points for Techpriest, and all of his options


Thanks!

middle wrote:Got a day off tomorrow so I can mosey on down and take a peek.

Take your camera with you, it will make taking notes MUCH easier.....

Centurion.

I'm hearing rumors that command squads can't shoot if they give orders. Can someone give an official clarification?

Is that the stand it comes with?

Cause if so. Good luck getting cover saves with that vehicle

Welcome to the thread. Always good when people point out that they cant be bothered to read the entire thread.

Try bringing up the pointcost of PWs next.

The Vanquisher no longer sports a coaxial storm bolter right?

i'll be damned if i'm filing all mine off! they'd better still be there. you're probably right, though. they'll get rid of it and turn around and bring it back in a FAQ!

sorry to bother you, but there is still the "how exactly works the hellhound cannon" question open...
(whole template within those 12" or only a small part? small end have to be in any direction? what happens if you place the template outside of the 12" or are you allowed to messure?,...)

any infos on that would be appriciated!!!

greetings Badger

Quick question on RR

Rough Riders with S5 I5 Power weapons on the charge. 1+4 for 55. +5 at 10 each. ( Cheaper ? ). All have Hunting lances = S5 I5 Power weapons on the charge. MUST USE IN FIRST CHARGE. Pistol or CCW (your choice - I know which i'm having ).

Does the hunting lance and a pistol/ccw give +1A for having 2 weapons? Whats the point of the CCW at all?

Just got back.

Techmarines do indeed have Power Armour. The servitors have Servo arm and carapace.

Vendetta's Hellfury missiles ignore cover saves. Packed full of incendiary. Makes me consider using them now.

Vox does not have unlimited range. Yeah it's wierd using a vox at 6" but thats how Arby wants it.

Dozer blade you don't need to go slow. Always re-roll terrain.

Commissar lord may take a boltgun for free. PW for 10. Plasma pistol for 10. PF for 15. MBombs for 5. Camo for 10. Carapace for 10. ( If he is in a CCS he will get these last two for free if they buy it )

Hellhound: Place the narrow end of the template within 12" of the gun. Then the wide end may be no closer to the HH than the narrow end is. Basically pick the range you want to shoot it at to drop it just in front of the enemy unit, then you have a 180 degree fire arc to place your template.

Mogul Kamir gives his RR furious charge.

Valk: Just has access points so refer to rulebook. A staffer did suggest 'landing' the Valk by taking it off the stand for the turn you want do embark / disembark, then put the stand back on next turn while it is flying off. I know that goes against the rulebooks stand on flying bases but it's a nice idea. Think 'Nam, touching down and then flying off when you've dropped the kids off at the pool.

middle wrote:

Vox does not have unlimited range. Yeah it's wierd using a vox at 6" but thats how Arby wants it.

The Imperium has functioning interplanetary/interstellar communications but can't make a decent battlefield radio?! If the RTO's are only packing Motorola walkie-talkies, what are they wearing those huge backpacks for? *shakes fist at GW dev team*

Well ya see, it's like this. A squad only ever bothers to use its vox if it thinks it heard the commander yelling at them, but couldn't quite make it out. There's an old saying in the Imperium: only use a vox as far as you can throw it.

Wait, so what's the max range of a vox?

middle wrote:Hellhound: Place the narrow end of the template within 12" of the gun. Then the wide end may be no closer to the HH than the narrow end is. Basically pick the range you want to shoot it at to drop it just in front of the enemy unit, then you have a 180 degree fire arc to place your template.

So in effect there is no decrease in range and in fact a 2" effective range increase when you factor in moving fast. This is good news. Very good news.

Lord Solaar wrote:Wait, so what's the max range of a vox?

It doesn't appear to have a range at all. It apparently allows the squad a LD re-roll for orders if a platoon commander or company commander is within their range (6" or 12" respectively) for issuing orders to the squad. Since Creed has a 24" range, he might find himself in a lot more IG armies. I suspect that vox networks (unless the rumors are wrong) are on their way out or will only appear in a few squads that always setup within 6-12 inches of their command squad.

Here's what I heard: Creed is necesary.

I really can not understand the reason for the lack of range on the Voxes, that literally makes no sense to me...

I was on the fence about Voxes before, but now that they don't have long range, there is really not much motivation to use them.

C&K all the way.

Well great, the command bubble is gone and the sole reason to take voxes is removed.

So... Voxes are there just for a re-roll? Not to receive orders beyond the radius of the Officers?

That's just... wow. *shakes head*

I'll reserve final judgement until after the codex is out and I have playtested several lists, but it does appear that my vox operators are out of a job. I have enough painted figures to exchange ordinary lasgun models for the voxcasters so this is a minor problem.

Time for the Imperium to discover the Standard Template Construct for Creed. Perhaps a Magus Explorator has located one?

Middle, you 100% positive about the voxes?

Platuan4th wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:That is such a sweet model.

Don't plan on using any (doesn't really fit in my renegade, rag-tag theme) but I may still pick some up for APOC or something.

Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and get 6 of em.

If it's worth doing, it's worth over doing!

Just curiouse, is there one called "vendetta" ?

what happens if they release a heavy fire power version ?

Yep. 100% positive about vox.

Vox range goes of the Officers command range. You can be 24" from creed and re-roll. 12" away from a CCS / Al'rahem / Chenkov. 6" away from a PCS.

I can agree with there being a hell of a lot of clones in the near future.

Scottywan82 wrote:Here's what I heard: Creed is necesary.

And if you take Kell you get the same chance of passing as if you had a vox anyway. The whole orders thing started so well and now it seems like they never intended for it to be used.

well, the vox thing is stupid. In fact I am seeing idiocy akin to twin lash and/or dark eldar mandrakes sprinkled all throughout this game. GW are a bunch of idiots with absolutely no idea how to write a good game in the oppinion of a good friend of mine who just put his orks up for sale today and I am beginning to agree with him. If they were capable of releasing a new wave of codex withing a 1 year period of one another and had the sense to playtest them ALL against each other it might help. Look at Magic: The gathering, where a panel of 1000's of players review and decide each card that is in development and playtest it thouroughly. Magic has also figured out how to write a core rule book that is free of all ambiguity, how hard could that be? I guess it just proves that American game designers are intrinsically smarter than british game designers due, to some kind of accident in the warp of course.

Don't forget Kell has to be in the CCS. Not nescesarily the one Creed is in but CCS only.

I see the CCS / Creed buffing the rest of the army and not each other all game. Won't get much done otherwise.

He's completely NECESSARY. If not Creed, then 2 CCS. Otherwise half your orders will never be given. The voxes do ave one minor benefit, which is one per mega-squad isn't too expensive.

Kungfuhustler wrote:well, the vox thing is stupid. In fact I am seeing idiocy akin to twin lash and/or dark eldar mandrakes sprinkled all throughout this game. GW are a bunch of idiots with absolutely no idea how to write a good game in the oppinion of a good friend of mine who just put his orks up for sale today and I am beginning to agree with him. If they were capable of releasing a new wave of codex withing a 1 year period of one another and had the sense to playtest them ALL against each other it might help. Look at Magic: The gathering, where a panel of 1000's of players review and decide each card that is in development and playtest it thouroughly. Magic has also figured out how to write a core rule book that is free of all ambiguity, how hard could that be? I guess it just proves that American game designers are intrinsically smarter than british game designers due, to some kind of accident in the warp of course.

Kungfuhustler wrote:In fact I am seeing idiocy akin to twin lash and/or dark eldar mandrakes sprinkled all throughout this game. GW are a bunch of idiots with absolutely no idea how to write a good game in the oppinion of a good friend of mine who just put his orks up for sale today and I am beginning to agree with him.

The best part is how at first I chalked it up to them just trying make rules that would sell more stuff. But, contrary to HBMC's sig, GW seems to be making rules that will decrease their sales. Make voxes good, put them in a blister pack instead the main box, collect profit. How hard is that? Most people will just counts-as Creed anyway so there is less sales. I wonder when GW will realize that making better rules is more profitable than making stupid ones.

Scottywan82 wrote:

GW is incapable of writing a balanced game due to their release system and rules are downright ambiguous in too many circumstances. They don't playtest properly because their codex are impossible to test against one another due to 1/2 of them being written for older editions and still needing to be re-written. Normally I'm not in the GW are a bunch of stupid-head's camp but I'm slowly jumping ship to that camp. I'm not quitting 40k in favor of at-43 or anything but I understand why people would.

Sorry, back on topic. Voxes are dumb. I'm going to be testing ogryn w/ attached inquisitor with power armor, power weapon and an inquisitorial mandate soon. That seems exciting.

The T3 inquisitor with 2 wounds and can be targeted as an IC? And you can't move when you use a mandate.

...maybe in terminator armour. They have a good charge already, using the mandate in CC in subsequent rounds will be good. I did for get about the stupid IC status though... Almost not worth the KP.

middle wrote:Yep. 100% positive about vox.

Vox range goes of the Officers command range. You can be 24" from creed and re-roll. 12" away from a CCS / Al'rahem / Chenkov. 6" away from a PCS.

I can agree with there being a hell of a lot of clones in the near future.

This is horrible. Just completely and utterly stupid . Un- fething- believable... OK, that does it. Creed is now officially the Mandatory Unspecial Character of every Guard Regiment in the Galaxy. Hopefully I can get a copy before his price goes through the roof

Voxes must have been so powerful that they needed to be nerfed.

I shook my head when I saw that voxes had a finite range...this codex had SO much promise...so much promise.

Hah, voxes with shouting range broadcast. That's just awesome.

It does open a whole bunch of new modelling options though. I think I'll maybe convert me a few "vox" operators using their can-and-string "voxes" to call for help with, or maybe a few guys with big reels of cable on their backs for laying phonelines. And of course no company commander will be ready for action unless he has a "vox" operator along to carry his tin-cone megaphone.

Great times...

glory wrote:Hah, voxes with shouting range broadcast. That's just awesome.

It does open a whole bunch of new modelling options though. I think I'll maybe convert me a few "vox" operators using their can-and-string "voxes" to call for help with, or maybe a few guys with big reels of cable on their backs for laying phonelines. And of course no company commander will be ready for action unless he has a "vox" operator along to carry his tin-cone megaphone.

Great times...

If you aren't actually going to do that do you mind If I do? I'll post pics tonight!
*edit* I can't believe that to orders system forces gunline tactics. I hate gun lines! In a dominated by CC armies being the guy sitting there grabbing his ankles and gritting his teeth is no fun at all.

You have my blessing, Kungfuhustler. My concept-to-prototype timeframes are measured in months (or years), so you can even claim the idea as yours if you wish. By the time I actually get anything done it'll be a "new" idea again.

nice. okay, off to the work bench then. I fething love sundays.

I really want to hear GWs rational for this decision. I am genuinely curious as to what justified this change.

Was unlimited range really that powerful? Couldn't they have made it a max set range, like 36" or even 24"?

You're telling me Creed and shout farther than IG voxes have range?

Is it true that command squads cannot shoot in the same phase that they give orders?

Can they move before they give orders? That would add another six inches to the range...

Officers can move as normal and then giving orders does not affect them or their squad from shooting / running in that phase.

Are you guys complaininng over an ability that is essentially free? They put some restraints on it and the vox is not as useful as we intended but its still a free ability right.

Frankly, I'd rather it was a costly ability that actually did something. As it stands, you'd have to treat all of your command squads as nursemaids for whatever squads you want to give Orders to, handing your opponent Kill Points by bringing easily-killed 5-man squads to the front.

CKO wrote:Are you guys complaininng over an ability that is essentially free? They put some restraints on it and the vox is not as useful as we intended but its still a free ability right.

You mean like our "free" Leadership ability which we no longer have, that the orders replaced?

Orders are not free, we lost a great ability to get them. So yes, we want our new ability to be worth the loss.

Personally, I still feel Orders are useful, but the vox nerf hurts.

Agamemnon2 wrote:Frankly, I'd rather it was a costly ability that actually did something. As it stands, you'd have to treat all of your command squads as nursemaids for whatever squads you want to give Orders to, handing your opponent Kill Points by bringing easily-killed 5-man squads to the front.

It just means that our command squads will not be leaving their Chimeras.

Yeah, because a AV12 transport vehicle is so much better at keeping them alive. If an opponent wants to stop you from using Orders, it will be trivial in the extreme to deny them to you.

middle wrote:Officers can move as normal and then giving orders does not affect them or their squad from shooting / running in that phase.

That is a small relief. But I really do not feel comfortable running my Colonel back and forth the line dodging bullets just so he can shout for the squad at my right flank to shoot the enemy tank in front of them.

EDIT: Agamemnon. Absolutely concur with you. The Command Squads will have an even bigger target painted on their heads than before. If you are playing against a Guard army and you can get a shot at its HQ, you will take it. Emperor have mercy if it contains some extra Advisors! You will pound it until you are absolutely, positively sure it is DEAD.