Ogiwan wrote:Just jumping in. I read the new Codex myself not too long ago, and frankly, I'm wondering why they didn't call it "Codex: Cadians". You really can't do anything other than Cadians.

What about Armageddon Steel Legion? You can field entire platoons in Chimeras, as well as sacrifical Conscript / Hive Militia mobs, and more battle-hardened penal legion / Hive Ganger squads. You can still go the Grenadiers route, and now you can put a third special weapon into that squad of Bs4 + 4+ save dudes, as well as a heavy weapon team if you want. You could do a passable ersatz Elysian with those same Veteran squads, relying on a couple of Valkyries and Vendettas to get them deep into the enemy half of the table.

And that's not using any special characters at all. Me, I'm quite keen on building a Catachan contingent for the first time in a long, long time, simply because Iron Hand Straken has immensely amusing rules. He's not effective points-wise, but the idea of a T4 Guardsman with a S6 powerweapon, 3+ save and Feel No Pain punching out enemy battlesuits and tanks is hilarious.

I think this Codex has problems, but saying it's limited to just plain Cadians is, I feel, unnecessarily harsh. There might only be a few super-efficient builds, but that's a different matter.

I think I'll at least trial a 50-man squad with 5 power weapons, 5 flamers, 5 autocannons and a commisar w/ power weapon.

420 points or so? Not cheap...

Rumor has it, the machine spirits of the internet have produced an English pdf.

^^ Really???

Tell me more please???

I don't think the moderation would be happy if a link were posted here in this thread...

EDIT: super slow self-incrimination reduction edit

good point, Ill wait till the 2 of may!!!

Also do you guys think that they will release new troop model's??? and hopefully with a Chimera in one

The chimera kit could really use a revamp, at least a new turret. Sadly I think the only new troops we are getting is the repackaged cadians and catachans, until wave whatever comes out with tanks and who knows what else.

Local store has their preview codex now so I got a chance to flip through it.

Frankly, I'm unimpressed. I remember finishing a read-through and thinking to myself "2 broken units, 4-5 average units, and a ton of useless crap".

And although it's a minor point, it's got me fairly furious that I've got a dozen fully painted (some converted) lasgun-armed sergeants who now need to be headswapped to basic grunts... while I now need to buy/assemble/base/paint a dozen laspistol/CCW sergeants. If there were some decent reason for that, I wouldnt be so furious. But there isnt a good reason. It's just ARBITRARY.

It also annoyed the piss out of me that every time I would read something and a combo would occur... I'd hit the section where for some ARBITRARY reason, that specific combo is disallowed.

It was also mildly annoying to have other people all pissing themselves in glee.

"OMG, did you see that IG have melee troops now?! That's AWSOME!"

"No, it isnt. Penal Legion have a random ability and are initiative 3. They will die before they swing."

"Heavy 20 tank OMG!!"

"So? Did you see the point value? Have you calculated how many heavy bolters you can buy for that?"

"Ogryn are T5, yaaaay!"

"Theyre 40 points."

"No way, that's impossib... oh... wow, they are 40 points each. WTF were they thinking?"

My post above is in no means an endorsement of this codex as a whole. If I had my druthers, I'd keep the current one for the next 10 years. By that time, the 7th edition design team would probably take a stab at it.

4chan is my God and master

I may have to agree with you there, scotty.

What's the rush? Nobody should be in a hurry to use this book.

I'm interested ina few of the things we haven't heard yet.

Al'Rahem and Chenkov do not have all of the orders.
Chenkov can't do FRFSRF, Al'Rahem cannot order Move move move.

Also Send in the Next Wave is good for ANY conscript unit, not just Chenkov's and it's not an order. You just wipe out the unit and send in a new - identical - one. Just the conscripts though as mentioned.

Team that up with a commissar lord at the back and a priest in the unit and BAM! As long as the Commie Lord is within 6" the conscripts are Ld 10 and stubborn. And he just can't get caught in combat.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Recklessfable wrote:"Most" really depends on what has gotten to you. I'm not saying this is something to go chase Orks with, but it is better than Ogryns (which cost around twice as much) and Rough Riders (which have to charge)

And far worse than a 60 point (or 65 point... can't remember the cost of a Heavy Bolter) unit that swarms the enemy. Power Weapons and Commissars? No. For basically the cost of your one single squad with the Commissar, bring two squads and swarm the enemy. Guard don't win with fancy weapons or over-priced lumps of meat and muscle. They win through Guardsmen. You send 40 Guardsmen into something it won't matter if 10 of them die before they swing - the other 30 still get to swing!!!

I'm sorry H.B.M.C., I have to strongly disagree with your statement. If you want Guard to stick in combat in 5th edition, you need the Commissar. Guardsmen don't put out the necessary CC wounds to avoid a Ld test with significant penalties against most enemy combatants. There are missions where slowly feeding the meatgrinder is an option, on the other hand, in kill-point missions its an auto-loss if that's the way one prefers to deal with CC. I have always eschewed counter-attacking units in favor of more guns in my previous edition Guard armies, but that was back when a couple guardsmen got a re-rolled Ld 9 if you wanted them to stick around on your turn. Those were the same editions where if you lost a squad, it was 70-90 VPs you lost, not a kill-point or an objective holding squad. The ability to go out and hold objectives against enemy troops, and the ability to soak up a diminished close combat squad without giving a kill point are extremely valuable abilities.

If you charge 40 guardsmen in you'll likely lose 40 guardsmen. If you charge 30 and a Commissar, you'll lose as many Guardsmen as your enemy kills, and the enemy won't be assaulting your tanks or heavy weapons when you lose.

Looks like my friend owes his opponent an apology. He kicked the Tau's butt with a 1500 point list using the new codex, but made the mistake of thinking Straken has FNP (as I did upthread). He's hard for an 'umie, but not that hard.

Scottywan82 wrote:Also Send in the Next Wave is good for ANY conscript unit, not just Chenkov's and it's not an order. You just wipe out the unit and send in a new - identical - one. Just the conscripts though as mentioned.

Team that up with a commissar lord at the back and a priest in the unit and BAM! As long as the Commie Lord is within 6" the conscripts are Ld 10 and stubborn. And he just can't get caught in combat.

The unit needs to buy the special rule. It costs them 75 points, so it's not something you can just whip out and hope it works. On the other hand, I could see myself taking him for the 12" order bubble he gives and the additional order. GBitF is a not a bad trick to have.

Agamemnon2 wrote:What's the rush? Nobody should be in a hurry to use this book.

I am But what I like most is for me and the army I play it's really not going to change much at all, in fact the way I calculated the points based on the rumors, I'll have extra points to squeeze more models into my usual 2000 pt army. I'll lose my drop troopy suicide vet squads, which isn't a big deal to me at all. Everything else I have will be getting a nice boost other than my hellhounds but I can live with that.

I think once the book is in everyone's hands and people really start playing with it a lot, folks will find their comfort zone again. There will be the power lists for the hardcore kids, and you can still build super fluffy lists that always lose if that's your thing too. You can't have a real armored company, but you can come darn close. It seems like there really is something for everyone here. Yeah it's not all perfect, but no codex ever is.

Agamemnon2 wrote:Looks like my friend owes his opponent an apology. He kicked the Tau's butt with a 1500 point list using the new codex, but made the mistake of thinking Straken has FNP (as I did upthread). He's hard for an 'umie, but not that hard.

Obviously confused him with Harker

I'm mostly just irked about the laspistols for sergeants. It looks like a copy/paste from the platoon command, so part of me hope it is errata'd but then so much of this book is off the wall, so maybe not.

In the meantime I am leaving all mine armed with lasguns and letting people know how much they suck. I'm not replacing/remodeling until I know for sure it's not a feth-up.

Scottywan82 wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:Looks like my friend owes his opponent an apology. He kicked the Tau's butt with a 1500 point list using the new codex, but made the mistake of thinking Straken has FNP (as I did upthread). He's hard for an 'umie, but not that hard.

Obviously confused him with Harker

Either that or he had a medic in his command squad, and forgot that the effect expired when the medic did.

Huh. Just noticed something. The Banewolf's Chemical Cannon doesn't fire like a Hellhound's Inferno Cannon, meaning it has just template range. I did not realize that! That kinda sucks!

But it means the Heavy Flamer in the hull is even more useful, at least. Since you'll be in template range anyways.

Gah! And the Medusa Siege shells are 2d6 Armor pen! Not just against buildings.

Str 10, ap 1, 48" +2d6 armor pen? Uhm. I'm pretty sure this is INSANELY better than a Vanquisher.

I'm diggin' it. I've been using Medusas for a while now, but it's always neat to get more incentives. Trying to see the silver lining, and all that.

EDIT: Huh. Noticed another odd thing. Conscripts don't come in bundles anymore. You can have any amount from 20 to 50.

That's nice to hear. The IG needs granularity SOMEwhere in its squads.

AlexCage wrote:Huh. Just noticed something. The Banewolf's Chemical Cannon doesn't fire like a Hellhound's Inferno Cannon, meaning it has just template range. I did not realize that! That kinda sucks!

But it means the Heavy Flamer in the hull is even more useful, at least. Since you'll be in template range anyways.

Gah! And the Medusa Siege shells are 2d6 Armor pen! Not just against buildings.

Str 10, ap 1, 48" +2d6 armor pen? Uhm. I'm pretty sure this is INSANELY better than a Vanquisher.

Well, you're giving up the large blast for a small blast, and it has to fire directly, but yeah, that's pretty freakin' awesome AT power. Looks like a prime unit to give camo netting to, as every gun that can hurt that thing will be gunning for it (unless you're facing an all infantry army).

The problem with the seige shells is that they still scatter. But when they do hit, that's strength 10 + 1 for AP1 + average of 7 on 2d6 = average roll of 18 versus armor. AVERAGE of 18. Regardless, it's still one scattering shot as BS 3 (albeit a nice one shot).

I'd rather use 4 meltas in the hands of BS4 guys. That's over 2 hits at an average strength of 16 each instead so long as you can get into killy-death range.

The pages I read off 4chan actually didn't impress me too much. The writing just plain sucks. Poorly constructed sentences, repetitive word use, etc. Too bad since I'm such a fan of good 40k fluff.

example:

"Ogryns are abhumans - decendants of human populated worlds scattered throughout the Imperium and isolated from the rest of Mankind for millenia.

Ogryns are massive brutes whose immense strength is legendary throughout the Imperium. Ogryns' combat role tends to be as..."

A high school student with a B- in English could have written that. And these people say they invented the language. Use some pronouns, man!

I also noticed that camo netting can't be bought for individual tanks in squadrons - it has to be bought for each tank. That means you can't buy one camo net for the naked russ and put it in cover to give the executioner in the open the squadron's majority 3+ cover save. You have to dish out the 20 points for every tank.

Also, Chenkov is cheaper than has been posted previously, as are Regimental Standards.

Ok. My actual review won't happen until Commissar Calgar returns from his fishing trip, plus I'm more interested in going over the fluff sections than the rules. That said, despite seeing a lot of this before, this will be my stream of consciousness first (knee-jerk) reactions to the rules in this book:

1. Heavy Weapon teams count as 2 models in a transport, 1 model all other times. Cool.
2. Vehicle squadrons really are squadrons.
3. As expected, you start with Company Command Orders and then go to Platoon Command.
4. Orders do not prevent shooting/running but must be done before shooting/running.
5. Double 1's = Inspired Tactics, get another order.
6. Double 6's = Incompetant Command, no more orders that turn for the whole army.

7. Appears that Company Command Squads all have BS4 Vets in them, including BS4 Vet HW Teams. There ya go.
8. New artwork of the Command Squad is basically a picture of the new Cadian Command boxed set. The Officer looks like the one from the new kit and the Standard Bearer even has the bionic arm from the new kit!!
9. Senior Officer = 12" Radius/2 Orders a turn.
10. Bring it Down = Twin-Linked.
11. Fire on My Target = Enemy re-roll successful cover saves.
12. Get Back in the Fight = Unit auto-rallies/un-pins itself and gets to shoot/assault that turn.
13. Overall, nothing inherently wrong with these orders. I'd still prefer my Command Radius back though.

14. Advisors all have the same statline except the bodyguard who's WS4.
15. Telepathic Relay = +1 to all Reserve Rolls and re-roll table edge for outflanking. Honestly, the model for the Astropath is so awesome that even if he killed a random model in your army every turn I'd still buy him.
16. Arty Bombardment = 2D6 scatter on a HIT, 3D6 on an ARROW, -BS if he has LOS. I don't think you'll be hitting much with this, given the average scatter of 3" if you hit, and 7" if you miss.
17. Fleet Officer = complete opposite of Astropath. -1 to their reserves, force re-roll on outflank table.
18. Bodyguard = Up to two wounds placed on the Bodyguard. The rule is called 'Look Out Sir - Arrrgh!'. Is Arby a real person, or is Robin Cruddance a pseudonym for Jervis?

19. Commissars have 1 wounds now. They've actually gotten worse. Christ...
20. Stubborn for the unit, as we know.
21. Aura of Discipline... what a stupid fething name for a special rule. Anyway, 6" Ld10 radius for the Commissar Lord.
22. Not impressed really. I know I'm not at the army list section yet, so I haven't got their points, but I'm expecting the 40-70 range. 40 points for a 1 wound model? God almighty... GW haven't made a decent set of rules for Commissars since 2nd Ed.

23. It's nice to see the Primaris back. Thanks Jervis for dragging us kicking and screaming to some weird partial 2nd Ed/3rd Ed fantasy world.
24. Thankfully he has 2 wounds.
25. He has 'Waste of Time Arc', with it's whopping AP5, and 'Pointless Shroud' which causes units to take a 'they're probably going to pass it anyway' Ld test to avoid shooting at the unit. 'Spose it's a nice thing to attack to a CHQ or whatever, but I just don't see the point. Cool model though.
26. Artwork for the Primaris is funny. He's lightning arc-ing an Ork, and the Ork almost looks as if he's turning to his mate and going 'Wot? Dis 'spozed ta 'urt or sumfing?'. He's probably a Biker nob in 'Eavy Armour ignoring the pathetic AP5 hit. What a waste...

27. I love that pic of the Enginseer. No rules for these guys will ever be as cool as this picture.
28. Mindlock - the pointless waste of time rule from the Marine Codex - is back for Guard Techpriests, reminding us why we'd ever bother with Servitors. Ah well, there's always 6th Edition Guard I 'spose.
29. 5+ to repair is semi-decent. Any more though and he'd be mandatory, and as he's not a special character, they can't make him mandatory.
30. He has a Servo-Arm... I think it's there to taunt you really, 'cause a T3 W1 I3 model ain't going to survive to Init1 to use it.

31. Like Commissars, Priests lost a wound. And they'll still be 40 points.
32. Righteous Fury has no effect on Ogryns, 'cause that'd actually make Priests useful, and we wouldn't want that now would be. Useful Priests? Useful Ogryn? Are either of them Special Characters?
33. An eviscerator counts as a powerfist but rolls an extra D6 for penetration. I suppose they have to say that because there are no Chainfists in this book.
34. He has a 4+ invul save... I'm sure that's worth 40 points.

35. First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire = 2 shots for Lasguns out to 24", 3 shots for Lasguns out to 12". 'Spose if you fight a lot of Grot-heavy armies that might be useful.
36. Incoming = +2 to cover save. Ok...
37. Move! Move! Move! = 3D6 picking highest for running. Could be good for objective missions.
38. Platoon Standard = Gives an whopping +1 wound for combat resolution. Yay. Like a Command Squad can survive a round of combat...
39. I love the artwork here. Catachan Officer running forward waving is sword one way, his plasma pistol another, and he's not looking where he's shooting. I 'spose that turn he rolled a Double 6.

40. We know what the blob platoon rule is, so I won't repeat it except to say I'm happy it's not an all or nothing rule. You can choose how many squads blob together, rather than just all of them. Makes a nice change from the usual extreme ends of the spectrum GW usually takes.

41. Heavy Weapon Squads get a whole page of fluff for what basically amounts to a statline. No rules or anything. Special Weapon Squads are a sub-heading.
42. I find the inclusion of the 'The Ubiquitous Lasgun' box to be amusing on the Heavy Weapon page.

43. RAR! Chimera still have AV10 sides and is very long. Not good.
44. "In reality, several are firing from the fixed lasguns on the side, but because Allesio can't count to 6 assume all shots to be taken from the hatch".
45. The Command Vehicle rule thing gives you a magical range extender for your orders.

46. Veterans have Defensive Grenades. Goody for them.
47. Shotgun to the face!!!! (you'll know it when you see it)
48. Hmm... Catachans and Elysians joined forces, became a good jungle fighting unit with access to Valks, and fought in the Saikong war... the Miss Saikong war by any chance? Did they attack the Tau stronghold of H'chi'M'in City?
49. They take away Infiltration as standard and give them fething Photon Grenades in responce? Vets need Photons like they need a fething hole in the head... I mean, they're not even WS4. How does this help them? They're not going to survive combat!

50. Penel Legions are Ld8 base, ok.
51. Gunslingers = Assault 2 Lasguns. Thanks for paying all these points for this squad, now as your reward you get to fire 2 shots from you Lasguns all the time!!! YAY!
52. Psycopaths = Fleet, F-Charge and Counter-Attack. What more could you want on a WS3 T3 WI I3 unit with Lasguns?
53. Knife Fighters = Rending. I think it's amazing that they got together people from a Penal Legion and the mother fethers are all expert knife fighters? What are the chances?
54. This Codex's Possessed. Easily.

55. Well at least Ogryn a stubborn. Then again, Grey Knight Terminators are Fearless.
56. I've said it before and I'll say it again, when GKT's are a cost-effective alternative to Ogryn, something's really fething wrong!
57. Rippers are so mighty with their AP-.

58. Ratlings have Infiltrate and Stealth.

59. Worded differently to before, I can confirm that RR's only use their Lances when they charge, not when they get charged. Of course, if your RR's are getting charged you're doing something wrong and they're so fragile that they'll probably all die before you get the chance to charge them anyway...

60. Move Through Cover and Scout only for Scout Sentinels, as you'd expect.

61. Storm Troopers have Deep Strike as standard, like they always should have had.
62. Recon = Scout & Move Through Cover. Useful for a Deep Striking unit.
63. Airborne = Re-roll Scatter = Mandatory for Deep Striking unit. An option you take all the time isn't an option.
64. Behind Enemy Lines = Infiltration. Scout would be cool to combine with Infiltrate... oh wait...
65. Hot-Shot Lasgun = Neutron Gun that's worse, if that's even possible.

66. Soulstorm could be a useful power.
67. But it won't ever get used because Weaken Resolve is way better.

68. Lumbering Behemoth is quite a nice rule. It wouldn't be necessary if 40K's vehicle rules weren't so utterly idiotic, but it's nice to finally have a tank with 4 guns that can actually use its 4 guns.
69. No Battlecannon rounds from the Vanquisher. Put your FW models in the bin kids.
70. I love the Eradicator. This Codex's Hellhound.
71. Punisher represents a typical GW backstep. "Let's make a gatling tank!" "Yeah! We'll make it Heavy 20." "Awesome... wait... that's going to be too powerful!" "Ok, S5 and no AP value. And a really short range." "Yeah! That works." "OMG! It's a Heavy 20 tank!" "Quick, up its price." The scary part is this dialogue only involved one person - Jervis talking to his imaginary friend Robin.

72. I can't think of a reason to take the Nerfhound.
73. The Devil Dog has a stupid name.
74. The Devil Dog actually has an ok gun.
75. The Banewolf has a stupid name.
76. I can't think of a reason to take the Banewolf. You have to be in flamer range. Not template with a 12" range, actual real flamer range. Why would you go that close to enemy troops and risk HTH combat? a 2+ wound ain't worth that. Not even with AP3.

77. I love the fact that the Hydra got its own page!!!

78. I can't think why you'd bother with a Medusa. Who honestly things +12" of range is worth -2AV?
79. I still think it's weird seeing the Bombard on a Chimera Chassis. Min range of 24" basically makes the Basilisk the lame duck of this lot, especially considering the Bombard has AP3 and ignores cover.
80. Griffon is awesome.

81. Manticores are now S10 MIRV launchers! And they are limited to 4 shots a game.

82. Why is the Deathstrike in 40K? Deathstrikes mount Titan Warp Missiles and Barrage Bombs, not standard ordnance. They should be Apoc only.
83. The max range is great - 960"... y'know, just incase you're playing on a table that's 80 feet from corner to corner. Assuming my math isn't off that's a (roughly) 46 foot by 65 foot table. That's one hell of an Apoc game.

84. The Valk is redundant.
85. The Vendetta isn't.

86. Lord Mandatory E. Creed has that wonderful 24" range and 4 orders a turn, including a useless Order that gives a unit Furious Charge.

87. Pask in an Executioner is just brutal. Re-roll To Wound vs Monstrous Creatures.

88. Never Give Up, Never Surrender. Isn't that cute - Jervis has seen Galaxy Quest.

89. Colonel 'Re-release an Old Model' Straken.
90. His 12" Furious Charge rule, while not something Guard really need, is pretty cool. Everyone within 12" gets F-Charge and Counter-Attack. That's not bad.
91. He's T4 and S6 base... and has 2D6+6 armour penetration! And counts as having a Power Weapon. He's kinda nuts. I like him.

92. He's no longer 'Sly' Marbo? Just Marbo? Was the blatant use of another character just too blatant for GW this time? It's never stopped them before, so I don't see the problem.
93. LOL! 'Marbo does not take orders - he's a loose cannon! Hand in your badge! Any order issued to Marbo will automatically fail." So... why issue him orders in the first place? Wouldn't've have been easier Mr. Crudance to just say "Cannot be issued Orders"?
94. Deploys like a Callidus, stings like a bee.

95. Gunner Sergeant 'Could we re-sell Ox in a Direct Only blister?' Harker. Has Feel No Pain. Oh goody.

96. Toughness 4.
97. Eternal Warrior.
98. Iron Will.
99. Forcefield.
100. Welcome back Commissar Yarrick. It's been too long.

101. Captain Al'Rahem is a RETCON! He's no longer a member of the Macharian Crusade, he's someone else... who's named after the original Al'Rahem.
102. Can we call the new Al'Rahem 'Bucky'?

103. Chenkov marched his own troops across a minefield to clear the way for his tanks. Damn! That's brutal.
104. 12" Stubborn radius? Could be useful.

105. Let's place our bets now. Mogul Kamir did not get a model in 2nd Ed, will he get one in 5th?
106. Rage. Yeah. That's a useful ability.

107. Another little Retcon. For those of you who remember, Nork's dead. He retired and died age 100-and-something. They've changed that.
108. 'Eye-Battlecannons'. Nork may fire D3 Battlecannon shots out of his eyes to justify his 110 point price tag.
109. I made that last one up.
110. Loyal to the End. Commissar will not shoot Nork... but if the Commissar shoots Nork's commander, Nork kills the Commissar!!!!!!!!!!! Awesome!!!
111. That's not worth 110 points though.
112. Heroic Sacrifice gives him D6 S6 auto-attacks when he dies.
113. That ain't worth 110 points either.

114. Eviscerator...... See Page 35. Why even have a Wargear section if you're not going to have the damned Wargear in there! AHH!!!!!
115. Hotshot Laspistol = Range 6". WTF?
116. Hold on? Where are the pictures? I thought the whole point of the Wargear section was for new players to be able to see what weapons are what easily, as well as presenting the rules for all the weapons in the Codex. So this section does neither of these things. I guess Jervis' son knows what a Lascannon is now.

117. Page 70 is hilarious. It's the vehicle armoury and conists mostly of "See page XX". Why even bother!!!!???!!!!!

118. Commissar Lords can take Chimeras. They don't need a retinue.

119. Yarrick can take a Chimera! Yarrick has his own ride! That's awesome.

120. For 70 points I just can't see a valid reason why an army would benefit from a Primaris Psyker.

121. Oh feth off. Priests went up in Price? Up? Bloody hell...

122. You can have 2 Gun Servitors now because of [Insert Arbitrary Restriction Here]. So for all you folks who have groups of 3 Gun-Servitors (2 HBs and a Plasma Cannon) sucks to be you.

123. It's been done to death but yeah, 16 point Storm Troopers.

124. Heh. H-Vets don't even get their pathetic Snare Mines as standard. They have to buy them with Cameleoline for +30 points.
125. 30 points to give the H-Vets Meltabombs and a single Demo Charge? Wow that's expensive.
126. Who would pay 30 points for a change from Sv5+ to Sv4+?

127. Chimera overpriced by 10.

128. I don't know why they continue to insist that Sentinels be so costly...

129. Why would you pay 40 points to force your Rough Riders to move every turn?

130. Devil Dog wins because it has a decent weapon and is 10 points cheaper than the Nerfhound and the stupid waste of space poison thingy.

131. Devil Dog loses because the Vendetta exists.

132. Why would you pay 20 points for Heavy Flamer Sponsons?
133. Executioner + Plasma Cannon Sponsons + Camo-Netting + Commander Pask = a 300 point tank!!!!

134. Hydras are cheap but we knew that.

135. Griffons are awesome.
136. So is the Bombard.
137. Who'd pay 135 points for an AV12 open-topped 1-gunned Demolisher.
138. Who'd then go and pay a further 5 points on that same AV12 open-topped 1-gunned Demolisher to give it a smaller blast radius...

139. Manticore... or Bombard + Griffon. Hmm...

140. Call now and for 20 points less than this Deathstrike you can have a tank that fires every turn!!!!!!

And that's all from me. Looking forward to the non-rules parts of this book, and Commissar Calgar will return.

I love me some /tg/. Thanks 4chan for this gem.

Edit: the English version is out.

That is one impressive NON-review.

A couple things I noticed in there.

First off FRFSRF only works at 24" if you DID NOT MOVE. At 12" it always works.

Also, Weaken Resolve is just for one unit. The way people were talking I thought it was this almighty God field of doom.

Penal Legionnaires roll for their power BEFORE deployment. So, better than possessed.

EDIT: lmao! Al'Raheem is now offically Bucky.

Yes. 'Better' in the sense that hammering one nail through your dick is better than hammering two nails through your dick.

English leak on rapidshare on 4chan

That is to say, no fluff stuff only rules

H.B.M.C. wrote:Yes. 'Better' in the sense that hammering one nail through your dick is better than hammering two nails through your dick.

Some people go for that.

So, I've had a chance to look at the book now and I have some pretty mixed feelings on it. First, some things that I like:

1. Chimeras, I am a fan of pretty much everything that was done with Chimeras. They got a MUCH needed point reduction to 55. They maybe could have gone a little lower but whatever, I can live with 55. I also really love the 5 firepoints, that was totally unexpected and I was also pleasantly surprised that using the fire points does not make the Chimera open topped. This is probably my favorite thing about the book. This one helps ease the pain of some of the changes that I really loathe.

2. Guardsmen reduced to 5 points and get frag plus free vet sgt (and thus LD 8). I was really liking the rumors of guardsmen being 4 points but since LD bubbles are gone now I think the current configuration is for the best.

3. Blob platoons, the more I think about this the more I like it. It gives you a lot of flexibility in how you set your army up and can be switched on the fly depending on the mission. It also means that I might at least occasionally use comissars and Voxes now.

4. Vets as troops. Yes, we can't drop them in anymore but with the ability to take three specials and a heavy and then hide inside of the newly improved Chimera, all for one point less apiece than what they used to cost consider me a fan. Plus, they're scoring units. How awesome is that?

5. The artillery section, wow, lots of cool artillery to choose from (and in squadrons no less) and the best part is that more than one of the new artillery pieces will probably actually be useful. Griffons, Colossus, Medusas, Basilisks (less so with the Basilisk unfortunately), I can see uses for all of them.

Also, I can't help but notice that the artillery didn't seem to get the price bump that the Leman Russes did. GW must want to sell some of these.

With that said though there are a lot of things I do not like at all about this book:

1. First and foremost why the HELL can my sergeants not take lasguns? Really games workshop? Would it have been too much to ask that lasguns at least be an option for them? I've got 12 of these guys fully assembled and painted with lasguns and it is going to be a pain to change them. I know this seems minor but it is a real annoyance and is totally unnecessary. I am hoping this is a copy/paste mistake and gets some FAQ attention eventually (ha ha ha yeah I know ...silly me).

2. Orders, for the most part I am not liking them. They honestly seem about as ham fisted as the doctrine system that they are replacing. I am not saying they are useless or that they won't have an effect on games but that I don't like how they were implemented. Apparently in the grim darkness of the future there are no radios so they are limited to shouting distance only which I guess makes sense then that you can't hear people shouting while you're in your Chimera.

Also, if you're going to try to use them you still have to bunch your army up around the officers just like you did with the old leadership bubbles. So much for changing that aspect of the guard.

Since my army is mechanized it means that right away I'm pretty well not getting any benefit from orders. Unless you're running large blob platoons I just don't see the orders being all that useful. But if you are then I suppose you will enjoy them. Lucky you.

3. Voxes, this relates to my complaint above. The lowly vox was pretty useless in the old codex and given how the orders worked this would have been the perfect opportunity to make the vox useful both in terms of increasing the distance over which orders could be received and perhaps making it to where troops sitting inside of a vehicle were capable of receiving orders.

Instead, what do we get? A simple reroll. No increase in distance, nothing. How, exactly is it that a radio only works over shouting distance? What a piece of

And to top all of that off the squads that you might actually want to benefit from orders such as special weapons squads and heavy weapons squads don't even have the option of taking them. Way to fail.

To look on the bright side though I think we will at least go from Voxes being totally absent from competitive guard armies to maybe at least occasionally appearing within blob squads where you can maximize the benefit you are getting from the points spent on the Vox. Even that is iffy though since both the squad and command squad each have to have one so you are looking at a minimum investment of 10 points to get any use out of them and at that point you are edging into points that could be used on just buying more guns which I think tends to be the better investment. I suppose time, playtesting, and math hammer will eventually tell.

4. Leman Russ price increase. Wow these things are expensive now, particularly the "demolisher variants". I understand that they are more effective in mass numbers but this seems to be fairly well balanced out by the fact that immobilized results now destroy your 200 point tanks (and therefore we're back to 4th ed. where your stuff can be killed on glances again) and the fact that they don't reliably move well over 6". Also, having your 600 points worth of tanks forced to all fire at the same target is just really overkill.

Thank goodness artillery got a nice bump. Shame though that my demolishers will probably be riding the bench with this Codex.

5. Units that are borderline useless. Where to even begin? Ogryns, Storm Troopers, priests (45 points for a T3, I3, W1 independent character ...no thanks), and ratlings (t2, no longer hit on 2+ thanks to 5th ed, no longer can choose to go to ground instead of taking a morale test) just to name a few. There is WAY to much chaff in this book.

I could probably list a few more things but this post is already WAY too long.

Summary of the majority of HBMC's Non-Review:
"Guardsmen suck in HTH. Don't take things designed for HTH."


Well... thank you, sir, for such scholarly advice!



I was shcoked to see the Primaris Psyker's ability that makes you take a leadership test was a psychic power he actually had to USE. That's fething stupid. Who's going to use that? You'll use it once, the first turn when you don't have range on your arc lightning, and never again.

I don't see anyone taking the Primaris Psyker for anything other than fluff and fun anyways. Just a waste of an HQ choice.


Right now I'm trying to concoct the greatest Close-Combat squad EVAR. I think it'll be Kell, Yarrick, Nork (HOLY STUPID AMAZINGLY DUMB EXPENSIVE), and Straken. Give the CCS pistols to go with their CCWs. Bam! 3 powerfists and a Nork.

I plan on modelling my Company Commanders without guns. When asked about it I will respond "Gun? He doesn't need a gun, he's got a Nork!". Only because I can't change his name to Donk. /random

AlexCage wrote:Summary of the majority of HBMC's Non-Review:
"Guardsmen suck in HTH. Don't take things designed for HTH."

Well... thank you, sir, for such scholarly advice!

I've been saying it for years whenever some idiot insisted in taking 'Hardened Fighters' as a Doctrine. It seems that GW still think you can do a HTH army with Guard.

AlexCage wrote:I plan on modelling my Company Commanders without guns. When asked about it I will respond "Gun? He doesn't need a gun, he's got a Nork!".

Wouldn't "Gun? I can't afford a gun 'cause I bought Nork!" be more accurate?

H.B.M.C. wrote:Yes. 'Better' in the sense that hammering one nail through your dick is better than hammering two nails through your dick.

So Possessed are worse than Halo?

I'm a bit overwhelmed still on this codex. It's very nice in a lot of ways, though it does have some real gak (like, from the butt) baked into the apple pie. I just can't process all the good and the bad right now. I think I need to lay down.

Scottywan82 wrote:So Possessed are worse than Halo?

*phew* Thank God you got the reference.

I was worried someone might think my comment was a little extreme, even for me.

AlexCage wrote:Summary of the majority of HBMC's Non-Review:
"Guardsmen suck in HTH. Don't take things designed for HTH."


Well... thank you, sir, for such scholarly advice!



I was shcoked to see the Primaris Psyker's ability that makes you take a leadership test was a psychic power he actually had to USE. That's fething stupid. Who's going to use that? You'll use it once, the first turn when you don't have range on your arc lightning, and never again.

I don't see anyone taking the Primaris Psyker for anything other than fluff and fun anyways. Just a waste of an HQ choice.


Right now I'm trying to concoct the greatest Close-Combat squad EVAR. I think it'll be Kell, Yarrick, Nork (HOLY STUPID AMAZINGLY DUMB EXPENSIVE), and Straken. Give the CCS pistols to go with their CCWs. Bam! 3 powerfists and a Nork.

I plan on modelling my Company Commanders without guns. When asked about it I will respond "Gun? He doesn't need a gun, he's got a Nork!". Only because I can't change his name to Donk. /random

That's not a Nork. This is a Nork.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Scottywan82 wrote:So Possessed are worse than Halo?

*phew* Thank God you got the reference.

I was worried someone might think my comment was a little extreme, even for me.

I only quote PA all the fething time. My wife can quote Penny Arcade I do it so much.

Does anyone else love Harker and Bastonne? They're a little expensive, but I basically see them as having different, unique doctrines (30 points) included in their cost.

With Bastonne being able to give his unit "Take it down" or "Fire on my mark" on Ld 10, I see these guys being premier tank hunters or dislodging tough units from cover.

Harker also seems like a great way to pop some troublesome tanks. Give 'em 3 meltas and some bombs and do some tasty flank marching. Mmm. Seems odd they gave him a Heavy Bolter though. Maybe a unit with 3 sniper rifles and 2 heavy bolters with Stealth, in cover? That'd be a pretty scary unit too.


Also, personally I don't care that the Deathstrike has no place in regular 40k. It's FRIGGIN' AWESOME. 8-12" blast template at st10, ap1, ignore cover, always counts as full str against vehicles Mahaha, bring on the ICBMs.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

AlexCage wrote:Summary of the majority of HBMC's Non-Review:
"Guardsmen suck in HTH. Don't take things designed for HTH."

Well... thank you, sir, for such scholarly advice!

I've been saying it for years whenever some idiot insisted in taking 'Hardened Fighters' as a Doctrine. It seems that GW still think you can do a HTH army with Guard.

So, where do I apply to get a refund for the seconds I wasted reading that manifesto of yours? I agree with you, the Codex sucks, but I don't see the need to hammer it to the ground every godsdamned entry at a time.

You hate the codex. We get it. Moving on.

The Codex is irredeemably weak, and I would not recommend it to my worst enemy. I will stick with it because it's what I've always done. I fully expect five to ten years more of IG being a sub-par army gangraped by every opponent, or forced into narrow constraints of "competitive lists", exploiting some of the abnormally strong units in the book (Creed and Vendettas look to have a bright future).

My advice to interested parties remains the same: "Play Orks".

Agamemnon2 wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

AlexCage wrote:Summary of the majority of HBMC's Non-Review:
"Guardsmen suck in HTH. Don't take things designed for HTH."

Well... thank you, sir, for such scholarly advice!

I've been saying it for years whenever some idiot insisted in taking 'Hardened Fighters' as a Doctrine. It seems that GW still think you can do a HTH army with Guard.

So, where do I apply to get a refund for the seconds I wasted reading that manifesto of yours? I agree with you, the Codex sucks, but I don't see the need to hammer it to the ground every godsdamned entry at a time.

You hate the codex. We get it. Moving on.

Give H his credit, he hates parts of the new codex because he has a realistically low opinion of GW as games designers and topical for this case guard credentials. Let him be.

After roughly skimming the book I have a few impressions. Like any new codex it has a lot of new toys, but not all the toy will be effective. It will take some time to build a properly balanced guard list, in my opinion, but since this was "released" early, we get a head start on trying to figure out what will work best.

Even with the ability to use the orders, STs don't cut it. They're too fragile for their points, and their guns don't even have the range to let them use those orders from a good distance. Yes, you can walk up to a forest with gaunts / orks / marines in it, shoot them with S3 guns, and make the 2 guys you wounded reroll cover saves. Then the next turn you get charged and die until you are dead from it.

Same thing with tank busting. They are a suicide melta unit that costs 100 points more than the platoon command squad, company command squad, veteran squad, or SWS you should be using as a suicide melta squad.

A ray of sunshine is that Straken seems like a lot of fun. Creed gives one unit FC / turn, which could be nice if you have a 30-man blob with frag grenades and you can't just shoot them instead. Straken gives it to every unit in 12", along with countercharge, and is pretty good in HTH himself.

Yarrik sounds like fun. He takes a bright lance to the face. 1 wound. Dreadnaught powerfist to the crotch. 1 wound. Eaten by a Hive Tyrant. 1 wound. He comes back on a 3+ and flips you off with a really BIG power claw finger. He's like Boris the Blade, but Russian. Wait a minute...

Now for some rumour busting.

I havent read all 60+ pagers so this mighty have cropped up before.....

You do NOT ignore the 4+ cover save for firing through your own troops with IG platoons per se. However a combined squad still counts as one squad so you can hide heavy weapons that way.
This means that your IG heavy weapons squads will either have to give away a free 4+ on each shot or expose themselves to return fire. Allowing for the idiotic w2 rule they wont last long.

pakman wrote:After roughly skimming the book I have a few impressions. Like any new codex it has a lot of new toys, but not all the toy will be effective. It will take some time to build a properly balanced guard list, in my opinion, but since this was "released" early, we get a head start on trying to figure out what will work best.

I'm not convinced there is a balanced, competitive build. There wasn't one in the previous book, which is why people where so keen on Drop Troop veterans with 3 plasma or melta guns.

What I expect to see are endless iterations of Ursarkar E. Creed's Flying Circus, with a choral accompaniment from from Psykers in Chimeras.

Hrm. In case no one noticed it, when Yarrick gets back up (at the start of the Guard player's turn), he is immediately moved 1" away from any enemies in base to base.

This means, of course, he gets to shoot you, charge, die, get up, shoot, and charge you all over again. AND HE CAN KEEP DOING IT! I can see using him with Creed or Straken to scary scary effect.

Hrrrm! I wonder how the average Yarrick/Ghazgul fight will go now!

Orlanth wrote:Now for some rumour busting.

This means that your IG heavy weapons squads will either have to give away a free 4+ on each shot or expose themselves to return fire. Allowing for the idiotic w2 rule they wont last long.

Or use them in the manner they are most fit for, shooting out of cover.

Agamemnon2 wrote:What I expect to see are endless iterations of Ursarkar E. Creed's Flying Circus, with a choral accompaniment from from Psykers in Chimeras.

I honestly don't think the Valkyrie is worth it. It costs 10 more points than a Wave Serpent and isn't as survivable. Honestly, what are you going to be putting in this thing than you want close to a target? Now, if I could carry Howling Banshees in it, that's a different story. I would still expect the main transport to be Chimeras as I can't think of one good use for the Valkyrie.

I will agree with you though, that you will see a lot of Creeds and Psychic Choirs in chimeras. That's one of the first things I thought of myself.

So, is there any rumors of a reworked Chimera coming out with the new kits?

Or do I cut the top hatch and raise it by about a quarteter of an inch on corner silts/lifts to represent the new firepoint rules?

Also, to use the chimera in such a fasion. Won't you have to expose your side armor for TLOS unless using a barrage weapon?

pakman wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:What I expect to see are endless iterations of Ursarkar E. Creed's Flying Circus, with a choral accompaniment from from Psykers in Chimeras.

I honestly don't think the Valkyrie is worth it. It costs 10 more points than a Wave Serpent and isn't as survivable. Honestly, what are you going to be putting in this thing than you want close to a target? Now, if I could carry Howling Banshees in it, that's a different story. I would still expect the main transport to be Chimeras as I can't think of one good use for the Valkyrie.

Valkyries? They're useless and overcosted. What I expect to see are 3 to 9 Vendettas carrying nothing.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

The Codex is irredeemably weak, and I would not recommend it to my worst enemy. I will stick with it because it's what I've always done. I fully expect five to ten years more of IG being a sub-par army gangraped by every opponent, or forced into narrow constraints of "competitive lists", exploiting some of the abnormally strong units in the book (Creed and Vendettas look to have a bright future).

My advice to interested parties remains the same: "Play Orks".

Wow, this seems like a harsh statement. I looked through it for a short while at the local store yesterday, and I see nothing that suggests "irredeemably weak" is an accurate way to describe it. True, there are units that shouldn't be taken by anyone who pretends to like winning, but I see some really good units that will make up a solid core to a competitive army.

veterans
blob platoons
certain Leman Russ variants
artillery
chimeras (fire points definitely make them worthwhile for 55 imo)

Then again, I've never had a lot of problems winning with Guard in the first place. I will concede the possibility that I may have played sub-par opponents for the last 10 years, it is difficult to quantify the skill of any particular gaming environment.

pakman wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:What I expect to see are endless iterations of Ursarkar E. Creed's Flying Circus, with a choral accompaniment from from Psykers in Chimeras.

I honestly don't think the Valkyrie is worth it. It costs 10 more points than a Wave Serpent and isn't as survivable. Honestly, what are you going to be putting in this thing than you want close to a target? Now, if I could carry Howling Banshees in it, that's a different story. I would still expect the main transport to be Chimeras as I can't think of one good use for the Valkyrie.

I will agree with you though, that you will see a lot of Creeds and Psychic Choirs in chimeras. That's one of the first things I thought of myself.

So no one's keen on the dual missile pod valk with melta squad or cheap infantry in it? 130 pts for a flying, fast AV12 vehicle that fires 2 large blast templates? I haven't really thought too deeply about it yet, so I'd like to hear what the vets think.

I can accept almost all of these reviews coming in.

For one, there are admittedly, a lot of units that aren't going to make any competitive lists. It is a step backwards from orks to be sure. But I think the SM book has a lot of underpowered units as well. GW just hasn't transcended to that level of game design where all units are equally usable, and none are redundant (with one being slightly better than its counterpart). However, no tabletop miniatures game has reached that level. Warmachine PRIME almost had it. With only a handful of crappy units. But as soon as they started expanding the factions and adding new units, then the inevitable redundancy crept in, and units got permanently shelved for all factions.

All units in this book look to be usable in the proper environment. There isn't anything in this book that is so bad that you couldn't sprinkle it in a 3k apocalypse list and find a use for it. That isn't really good enough for me. But it is a step up from the last IG codex.

But the people who aren't finding a competitive list with these rumors just aren't trying hard enough.

company command squads with special weapons in chimeras
sanctioned psykers
blob platoons
veterans with special weapons in chimeras
valkyries
vendettas
hellhounds
russ variants
artillery variants

Make lists from these units. be sure to stock up on shots that ignore cover. Colossus, Eradicator, hellhound. Keep a little ap2 around as well. Plasma gun blobs, executioners, demolishers. Use fast vehicles to block (or score) objectives, and shred any blockers/enemy troops with your own shooting.

The hellhound is better in my opinion. In the old firing rules, the entire template needed to be placed within 24", meaning you either had your flamer template turned sideways, or you were shooting less than 24", under the new rules the small end is placed up to 12" away and the long end cannot be closer than the small end. That adds an extra 8" to the 12". Meaning it only lost 4" of range. As it gained fast vehicle status, it is a net increase in range, and since the sweet spot of the flamer template is not the small end, you don't HAVE to be within 12" charge range to fire the template. Lets not forget that the template doesn't need to roll to hit in order to hit all models automatically. It is a strength 6 flamer that you can place anywhere that won't scatter a single inch. I'll pay an extra 15 points for all those bonuses. Guard needs fast vehicles to win games of 5th edition. If I'm not running at least two eradicators, then I will have hellhounds in my army. I'm playing a cities of death game with a bunch of bane wolves tonight, I'll let you know how that ap3 template does as well.

The units that aren't competitive range from really close, to pretty far off.

prim psyker- I see taking him when you really don't want to spend anything on an HQ. Buying the 50 point command squad usually gets you buying a chimera and special weapons/flags/advisors. With the prim you can just pay the 70 points, jump in someone elses chimera and be underwhelming.

commissar lord- I think this bubble is required if you are running heavy weapons squads. I'm very interested in trying a infantry heavy list, really interacting with orders heavily. Unofrtunately for the lord, he is a reqired unit in a list that I think is lower tier.

priest- meh, I wish I could say he was somehow the key to unlocking something. He's there if you want him because you have the model, He's right at home in friendly games, but they didn't do anything inspired with him.

ratlings- sniper units in 5th ed are yawn inducing anyway, and I just keep looking at that leadership 6. So another unit (like the HWS) that needs commlord babysitting. Ugh. friendly games only, the larger the better.

orgyn- Gotta use them before I really know, because there isn't really an analagous unit in 40k. But competitively speaking, I can't see how this unit will be worth its points.

storm troopers- this could be the biggest snafu of the book. A fan favorite to be sure, and they might have gotten worse. Not cool.

penal legionarres- this is for the bell of lost souls crowd. Consider it a bonus unit, it has no need to be any good, because its just silly.

sentinels- Suffering in the redundant camp. They don't do anything unique, and now I actually have good FAST vehicles in my fast attack. Great models, and not really detrimental to a list. Just uninspiring and a bit overcosted.

some of the artillery variants and some of the russ variants- well with 7 russes and 6 artillery variants, the cream is bound to rise to the top. The funniest thing about these new tanks is that i think a couple of the worst tanks are the original battle cannon and the basilisk. Both of those tanks suffer from their ability to shoot at all targets. I'd rather have a strength 6 hyper efficient infantry killer or a pask powered tank buster, but not a large blast thats 'ok' at killing various tanks.


In the end. I got what I wanted. I can make an army that tourney players will respect, using the models I own (adding a couple new ones of course). I would have LOVED to see something like codex orks. But we didn't get it.

I'm content with what we've got. I forsee 3-4 years of fun with it. But I'd have been exceedingly happy if ogryns worked. I would have loved if stormtroopers were featured heavily, and I really wanted some field artillery ala DKK forgeworld stuff. (but that was just a pipedream)

One thing that I think is sort of interesting is how the Front Rank, Second Rank Fire order has steadily gotten worse and worse as time goes on:

1. As first rumored it was any rapid fire weapon ...wow cool, 3 shot plasmas, no wonder they're 15 points!

2. Ok, just lasguns, I wonder why plasma guns are 15 points? Oh well, still pretty neat that you can have a unit (possibly storm troopers) jump out of a transport and put a bunch of lasguns into something.

3. Hmm Voxes don't help you receive orders from across the board so I suppose I won't be doing that then.

4. Heavy weapon teams count as one model with 2 wounds and a heavy weapon. So much for that lasgun shot.

5. Sergeants don't get lasguns either ...so now we're down to what, 6 lasguns in an average squad?

18 Bs3 Str3 shots versus 12 seems distinctly ...underwhelming.

And is it true that in this month's White Dwarf the Codex author talked about a squad with 10 lasguns in it? How did he manage that? Does he have a special infantry squad that he can buy that the rest of us peons don't get access to? Or did he combine two (or more) infantry squads and decide to assign wounds to the special/heavy weapon troopers and the sergeant first to whittle the squad down to 10 guys with lasguns? Or is it just a typical GW ill thought out rules "clarification" that reads like it was written by someone that isn't even familiar with the source material?

The thing I have the most problem with in the book:

On the page for the Hydra, the blurb box relates how a heavy AA regiment of Hydras held off a rebel drop, racking up a confirmed kill ratio of 99,999:1.



How... the HELL? Even with a conservative estimate of 3 companies in the regiment, at full strength, that's about 3 million kills. What the HELL kind of invasion was that?!

God damned you, Imperial Propoganda! No one is buying your lies!


Also: To continue harping on the stromtrooper issue. Here's another thing that chaps my ass something fierce. I think we can all agree that we're paying for those AP3 weapons with that hefty price tag of 16 points. But we lose that AP3 when 'upgrading' their weapons to specials. But their specials cost the same as everyone else. This is fair how?

I can understand crappier BS models paying the same for Special Weapons, they get a break in their base cost for having crappier BS. But with a special weapon we're paying for TWO weapons and giving them one. STUPID.

And really, is there EVER a reason to give your Stormtroopers GLs or flamers? Like, ever? Especially now? No? That explains why Kasrkin come with one of each in the damn box, and not enough for a full squad without them.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
39. I love the artwork here. Catachan Officer running forward waving is sword one way, his plasma pistol another, and he's not looking where he's shooting. I 'spose that turn he rolled a Double 6.

He's not shooting, the gun is venting. It's the dramatic gun over your head, sword thrusting forward, screaming your head off pose. Personally, I found it more amusing to see Catachans marching abreast with a standard bearer.

... Is "Guard Charging" so alien a concept that people don't even recognize it when they see it in the art?

AlexCage wrote:The thing I have the most problem with in the book:

On the page for the Hydra, the blurb box relates how a heavy AA regiment of Hydras held off a rebel drop, racking up a confirmed kill ratio of 99,999:1.



How... the HELL? Even with a conservative estimate of 3 companies in the regiment, at full strength, that's about 3 million kills. What the HELL kind of invasion was that?!

God damned you, Imperial Propoganda! No one is buying your lies!

Well, I think they mean "99,999 enemy soldiers killed, 1 friendly soldier killed."

Concerning the voxes, they seem kinda wierd. Like people have criticized, Guard radios now only work over shouting distance? It's 'cause they're cups on a string.

One of my gripes is that, rather than making competitive choices for special weapons, they jack up the price on the one good special weapon the Guard has access to (Plasma, which KILLS EVERYTHING), and drops the price on grenade launchers and flamers, which....well, the latter is entirely useless, and the former is generally useless.

Still, though, I maintain that you cannot run all the armies that you used to. Cadians are no problem. Steel legion is no problem. However, Catachans? How do you do jungle fighters....who can't move any more easily in the jungle? Light infantry....same problem. Drop troops, you can KINDA do, but only by taking Valk squadrons (which means you have to pretty much do platoon movement, i.e. a platoon at a time, and can't move more than 9 squads at a time), or similar gimmicks which don't really capture how we used to be able to roll. Similarly, Grenadiers, or any other heavy infantry-type list: sure, I can take Veterans with carapace (*wince*), and I can give the command squad carapace (right?), but....I only have one command squad, so I'm horribly limited in the orders I can give, and the rest of my army isn't carapaced or high-speed or anything like that. I guess you can kinda do Valhallans as well, but....they get....more conscripts? I don't see the Vostroyan Firstborn, the Valhallans, the Tallarans, or the Cadians differing at all in terms of rules.

In the old dex, hey, I could take doctrines, and actually customize the army. Sure, some choices sucked, but I could at least make a unit that fought how I wanted it to.

Again, I think that this 'dex should be called, "Codex: Cadians".

Or, if you'd rather, "Codex: That Army That We Really Don't Care About Because They're Not Power-Armored Freaks".

Except for the fact that the doctrines for the most famous regiments weren't really unique, and some of the best parts of being Cadians (Having more doctrines, having sharpshooters) aren't in the book. So Codex:Cadians is just as accurate as Codex: Steel Legion. Granted, Catachans are pretty hard to represent now (for anyone who actually took Jungle Fighters). But armies like Tanith and Tallarn are just as easy to represent, and armies like Terrax Guard or Elysian are even EASIER to make. Stupid and uncompetitive, but fluffy as all hell.

This Codex is Generic Guard through and through. Cadians just happen to be more generic than most. But we still don't get sharpshooters.. bah.

Shep wrote:
ratlings- sniper units in 5th ed are yawn inducing anyway, and I just keep looking at that leadership 6. So another unit (like the HWS) that needs commlord babysitting. Ugh. friendly games only, the larger the better.

As far as Ratling Ld goes, I can't say it has ever been much of a problem. Infiltrating them into whatever piece of 4+ cover has the best vantage point has always been standard operating procedure, and I've tended to rely on presenting the enemy with more worthwhile targets to spare them undue attention. Given the nature of 40k sniper weapons, you pretty much need a bunch of them in one unit. Though a full unit only causes 1.11 Rending wounds and an additional 2.22 armor saves to any non-Gargantuan model with a Toughness value, in terms of kills per point it's not horrible, considering the army's poor BS. And taking pinning weapons now that we have a reliable, repeatable way to cripple an unit's Ld every turn doesn't quite sound like the horrible idea it was back in the olden days.

I bet everyone who took the Jungle Fighters doctrine is more than happy to trade it for Vets as troops choices. They still get heavy flamers, they can get extra cover saves if they want thanks to Camo, and it's a bunch of hard-bitten, well-equipped squads instead of the normal bunch of guys.

Apparently the Tanith troopers in the stories having amazing voxes compared to those being represented here. They could travel for miles and be useful.

Over all the book is better with some really good unit combos. Its not up to Codex Orks for strength but its not far behind either.

The vox is a repurposed wireless door chime used to get the vox operator's attention so he knows you're about to shout an order at him.

The Manticore can shoot its storm eagle rockets directly, and can be fired four times. 1d3 blasts per rocket, 1 rocket per turn. Confirmed that the Basilisk has no special rules, both heavy mortars can't fire directly, and the Medusa can't fire indirectly.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
108. 'Eye-Battlecannons'. Nork may fire D3 Battlecannon shots out of his eyes to justify his 110 point price tag.

I KNEW IT!!!! yes!!!!

109. I made that last one up.

Lies!!

I like to play Devil's Advocate, so despite the fact I HATE HATE HATE that voxes don't let you give orders from across the battlefield, I'm going to try to present a justifiable reason for this idiocy of epic proportions.

The Orders you can give really are more of a response to local conditions. I mean honestly, they aren't "Capture the objective at all costs!" or "Use the buildings to provide enfilading fire into the streets", they're "MOVE" and "DUCK". Guard officers are uninspired leaders, by and large...

Okay, I tried, and that still seems pretty stupid.

Seriously, why is a Lieutenant not able to shout as far as a Captain? Does promotion come with shiny new insignias and a bullhorn?

it's because the IG are sensitive and need to feel that sense of closeness that gets lost over a long Vox network.

Raxmei wrote:The vox is a repurposed wireless door chime used to get the vox operator's attention so he knows you're about to shout an order at him.

The Manticore can shoot its storm eagle rockets directly, and can be fired four times. 1d3 blasts per rocket, 1 rocket per turn. Confirmed that the Basilisk has no special rules, both heavy mortars can't fire directly, and the Medusa can't fire indirectly.

actually, i posted a while back the first confirmed pic of the new and opposite of improved 5th edition vox unit in action.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/downloadAttach/16826.page

Allow me to give my interpritation of the new voxcaster:

AlexCage wrote:I like to play Devil's Advocate, so despite the fact I HATE HATE HATE that voxes don't let you give orders from across the battlefield, I'm going to try to present a justifiable reason for this idiocy of epic proportions.

The Orders you can give really are more of a response to local conditions. I mean honestly, they aren't "Capture the objective at all costs!" or "Use the buildings to provide enfilading fire into the streets", they're "MOVE" and "DUCK". Guard officers are uninspired leaders, by and large...

Okay, I tried, and that still seems pretty stupid.

Seriously, why is a Lieutenant not able to shout as far as a Captain? Does promotion come with shiny new insignias and a bullhorn?

Yeah, I've got my justification and its pretty good.

The effect of the vox in game is not a representation of its range, but a representation of how much more clear the communication between two units would be. A lieutenant is not going to issue his sergeant an order in the middle of a firefight, when that sergeant is 200-300 yards away. Why? Because he has no idea what the sergeant is seeing or even exactly where he is.

The range in a tabletop game of 40k is so COMPLETELY asbstract. That is really important to keep in mind. We have artillery pieces on the front lines? We have models that can run as far in 6 seconds as a shotgun blast travels. rapid fire weapons can only kill a model accurately from 144 feet? A main battle tanks cannon can only kill another tank 432 feet away?

Range in 40k is totally fluid and non standard, from a fluff perspective, forget the idea that two units that are 6" apart are 30 feet apart.

The company commander has more battlefield awareness, so he issues orders in a further range. The platoon command squad is more interested in issuing orders to his own squads, so his range is shorter to represent that.

In game terms, the short range of orders injects a feeling of packed in gunline. It makes the IG army feel less like marines or eldar, with units spread all over the place, and more like a block of troops, providing mutual protection in overlapping firelines.

Fortunately, IG CAN be spread all over the place, acting like a mini eldar. Those units who strike out on their own however, must use their own initiative, they won't be as much a part of the war machine as a line squad in formation and therefore, won't be receiving any orders. Other than the orders that you can imagine you are issuing to them, by moving them and shooting with them.

I am SO going to model my Lieutenants, captains and Castellan Creed as follows:

Lt.s Have a hand cupped to a shouting mouth from the heavy weapon sprue.

Capts. have a cone for shouting (wrap greenstuff around the end of a pencil, let it harden).

Creed is going to be converted using the new Catachan boxed set. The dude with one foot up? He'll be standing on an amp and I'll model a little two way radio handset as seen here in one hand and his hot-shot laspistol in the other.

It'll be awesome.

I can't figure out what I could make a colossus out of. Any ideas? Preferably ones not involving chopping up a Bombard?

Rough riders still come with laspistol or close combat weapon. Pretty much the same as last codex, except slightly cheaper with fewer options and the rules for special weapons are clarified. Oh, and grenades.

A lot of vehicles now come with searchlights and smoke launchers. Some come with extra armor already included, which is somewhat smirkworthy.

Incidentally, the guys at my local gaming store were of the opinion that Furious Charge would not raise the S and I of models armed with hunting lances when they charge. I thought it would, but I'm not at all sure, now.

OH yeah! because it doesn't say +2, it says 5. Hmmm.. good question.

Furious charge affects the model's characteristics, which hunting lances don't use.

Another strike against Mogul Kamir. Bollox.

This might need a FAQ: The desperadoes special rule refers to "the Legionnaires." Does this mean the entire penal legion squad, or just the Penal Legionnaires and not the Penal Custodian?

FRFSRF does not specifically state that hot shot lasguns do not count as lasguns. IMO they don't, but that's going to need a FAQ too.

I'd hope for Hunting Lance + Furious Charge to make it to a FAQ. There's a special character who makes this combination come up automatically, after all.

As ordnance weapons that do not specify otherwise, do Hellstrike missiles use the large blast marker?


Weaken resolve only works for the remainder of the turn. Looks like you can't use it to nerf enemy psykers.

desperados is almost certainly legionaires only. Hotshot aren't lasguns. FC should stack with the lance. Hellstrike being ordinance just means you roll 2d6 and take the highest vs armor.

Im surprised no one has mentioned Creed's "tactical genius" rule. the one that lets him make any unit or vehicle unit have scout. Is this not as good as I think it is?

AlfredTheStrange wrote:Im surprised no one has mentioned Creed's "tactical genius" rule. the one that lets him make any unit or vehicle unit have scout. Is this not as good as I think it is?

People have mentioned it. It's not bad, wish it worked on squadrons hehe.

Raxmei wrote:Rough riders still come with laspistol or close combat weapon. Pretty much the same as last codex, except slightly cheaper with fewer options and the rules for special weapons are clarified. Oh, and grenades.

A lot of vehicles now come with searchlights and smoke launchers. Some come with extra armor already included, which is somewhat smirkworthy.

Although considering that they are fragile, hit hard, and have initiative 5 when they matter, then frag grenades are a serious upgrade. Considering that their krak grenades now hit rear rear armor also, they are a non-trivial upgrade. I see the rough riders as this:

First turn of action (which might be 2nd or 3rd game turn): Charge enemy close combat guys.
2nd Turn of action: Anybody still alive charges a tank.

Shep wrote:

AlexCage wrote:I like to play Devil's Advocate, so despite the fact I HATE HATE HATE that voxes don't let you give orders from across the battlefield, I'm going to try to present a justifiable reason for this idiocy of epic proportions.

The Orders you can give really are more of a response to local conditions. I mean honestly, they aren't "Capture the objective at all costs!" or "Use the buildings to provide enfilading fire into the streets", they're "MOVE" and "DUCK". Guard officers are uninspired leaders, by and large...

Okay, I tried, and that still seems pretty stupid.

Seriously, why is a Lieutenant not able to shout as far as a Captain? Does promotion come with shiny new insignias and a bullhorn?

Yeah, I've got my justification and its pretty good.

The effect of the vox in game is not a representation of its range, but a representation of how much more clear the communication between two units would be. A lieutenant is not going to issue his sergeant an order in the middle of a firefight, when that sergeant is 200-300 yards away. Why? Because he has no idea what the sergeant is seeing or even exactly where he is.

The range in a tabletop game of 40k is so COMPLETELY asbstract. That is really important to keep in mind. We have artillery pieces on the front lines? We have models that can run as far in 6 seconds as a shotgun blast travels. rapid fire weapons can only kill a model accurately from 144 feet? A main battle tanks cannon can only kill another tank 432 feet away?

Range in 40k is totally fluid and non standard, from a fluff perspective, forget the idea that two units that are 6" apart are 30 feet apart.

The company commander has more battlefield awareness, so he issues orders in a further range. The platoon command squad is more interested in issuing orders to his own squads, so his range is shorter to represent that.

In game terms, the short range of orders injects a feeling of packed in gunline. It makes the IG army feel less like marines or eldar, with units spread all over the place, and more like a block of troops, providing mutual protection in overlapping firelines.

Fortunately, IG CAN be spread all over the place, acting like a mini eldar. Those units who strike out on their own however, must use their own initiative, they won't be as much a part of the war machine as a line squad in formation and therefore, won't be receiving any orders. Other than the orders that you can imagine you are issuing to them, by moving them and shooting with them.

You know, I buy this.

BoxANT wrote:

AlfredTheStrange wrote:Im surprised no one has mentioned Creed's "tactical genius" rule. the one that lets him make any unit or vehicle unit have scout. Is this not as good as I think it is?

People have mentioned it. It's not bad, wish it worked on squadrons hehe.

shouldnt it? it says vehicle unit, not vehicle. To me this implies you can have scouting squads of russ.

Biophysic wrote:

Raxmei wrote:Rough riders still come with laspistol or close combat weapon. Pretty much the same as last codex, except slightly cheaper with fewer options and the rules for special weapons are clarified. Oh, and grenades.

A lot of vehicles now come with searchlights and smoke launchers. Some come with extra armor already included, which is somewhat smirkworthy.

Although considering that they are fragile, hit hard, and have initiative 5 when they matter, then frag grenades are a serious upgrade. Considering that their krak grenades now hit rear rear armor also, they are a non-trivial upgrade. I see the rough riders as this:

First turn of action (which might be 2nd or 3rd game turn): Charge enemy close combat guys.
2nd Turn of action: Anybody still alive charges a tank.

This is true. Before this, if I had any survivors they would run like crazy out of LOS.

The ministorum priest is now an independent character. That makes the eviscerator a much less desireable upgrade.

If the desperadoes doesn't apply to the Custodian then he'll generally be the first man to be removed as a casualty. Especially if you roll psychos, since he'd make the squad lose Fleet.

The Custodian should have the same rule all commissars attached to Catachan regiments had. Accidents can happen after all.

Ogiwan wrote:Allow me to give my interpritation of the new voxcaster:

you're clearly biased and in the pro-"new voxcaster" camp. you made that string WAY too long! a guard vox using these rules would not be effective at that range.

i thought i read in this thread that orders can be given from a transport.
yet the codex states that officers can't issue orders if embarked? am i losing it, or was anyone else under that impression?

alarmingrick wrote:i thought i read in this thread that orders can be given from a transport.
yet the codex states that officers can't issue orders if embarked? am i losing it, or was anyone else under that impression?

Chimera special rule allows officers embarked in chimeras to give orders. We already knew about this.

okay, thanks. i'm back on track now! it seems like a weird rule. the only other vehicle he could ride in would be a Valk/Vendetta. and we know you can't hear him with the "Flight of the Valkyries" blasting over the loud speakers! duh!

Agamemnon2 wrote:So, where do I apply to get a refund for the seconds I wasted reading that manifesto of yours? I agree with you, the Codex sucks, but I don't see the need to hammer it to the ground every godsdamned entry at a time.

What part of 'stream of consciousness' do you not understand? I was commening on each page as I read it. Furthermore I didn't 'hammer' it with every entry, I stated the bits I liked, the bits I didn't, and the bits I found silly or amusing.

Agamemnon2 wrote:You hate the codex. We get it. Moving on.

I don't. I like it probably as much as I like the new Marine Codex, which is heaps. But it's possible to like something and still have major misgivings about it.

How about you stop judging me and attacking me and read what I fething wrote.

Demolition charges.

Ok. You pay 95pts for a squad with three of them, and you can take two such squads for each platoon. Its like a multiply exploding cyclops unit. Nasty.

It looks like Rough Riders have been relagated to a distant second for countercharge options. Noone will dare go near Guard until they have dealt with this mess. Anyone else agree.

Well Rough Riders haven't gotten any worse. If anything, they're slightly better being 10 points each and using their Lances when they charge rather than just the first round of combat. So RR's will have the same uses they have now.

Just never take Kamir. He's a complete waste of time.

No doubt, I like Rough Riders and was worried that hunting lances were goping to b e nerfed. th price drop does also help but....


Three demo charges for 95pts, plus some 'gun drone' guardsmen to get in ther way afterwards.
What do you think a tripled up S8 Ap2 pie plate is going to do to nob bikers? Tie up the nobz (or more honestly watch the sacrifice squad get annihilated then move up the demo charge guys and voila no more 700pt unit.

Think what four tripled up S8 Ap2 pie plates are going to do to an ork boys mob horde, or for that matter anything esle except nidzilla, who take a few wounds instead. Now admittedly that would be just shy of 400pts.

so whats your guys take on the hydra? seems pretty nice to me at 75 points for 4 strength 7 twin linked shots.

usernamesareannoying wrote:so whats your guys take on the hydra? seems pretty nice to me at 75 points for 4 strength 7 twin linked shots.

I like it alot, but would FW be the only way to get them? so expensive ><

usernamesareannoying wrote:so whats your guys take on the hydra? seems pretty nice to me at 75 points for 4 strength 7 twin linked shots.

Same number of hits as a heavy weapons squad for the same points. Of those two choices I prefer the Hydra, but I have a ton of autocannons elsewhere anyway. I have no intention of using one but it should be fairly useful if you need an autocannon tank.

Raxmei wrote:Same number of hits as a heavy weapons squad for the same points.

You forgot the +24" of range and the ignoring Skimmer and Bike movement protections. That's a pretty good deal.

Hydras are great. A little too specific for my tastes, but they work as a unit.

Question on the Platoon command of "Incoming!". Unlike regular going to ground, where the affected unit loses 1 turn, this order appears to make the affected squad lose two turns if I read it correctly. If orders are issued at the beginning of the shooting phase, and the affected unit can't act normally until the end of the player's next turn...

Seems a little harsh?

Yeah. That takes two turns away from the unit. The unit gives up its turn this turn and next turn. Who wants to bet that they didn't mean it that way when they wrote it?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Raxmei wrote:Same number of hits as a heavy weapons squad for the same points.

You forgot the +24" of range and the ignoring Skimmer and Bike movement protections. That's a pretty good deal.

Hydras are great. A little too specific for my tastes, but they work as a unit.

What is so specific about them? They look like a great all round unit with four twin linked shots. The only things they are not for killing are AV13+ and 2+Sv, and I am not really sure about ther AV13.

Everyone seems to dislike the Banewolf, but with a Hull Heavy Flamer + Chemical Cannon + Move Fast, it will make a great counter-charge unit. Only problem is that Fast Attack needs space for Vendettas.

Re:Incoming order, I suppose you just use it if you have an objective babysitter.

The Cerberus (I refuse to call it the 'Devil Dog') is cheaper than the Banewolf, and doesn't have to get into Krak Grenade/Power Fist range to use its guns.

H.B.M.C. wrote:The Cerberus (I refuse to call it the 'Devil Dog') is cheaper than the Banewolf, and doesn't have to get into Krak Grenade/Power Fist range to use its guns.

This is the one with the Melta Cannon?

If so, then personally this is the best one hands down. Even better if it can get a Multi Melta. Which for some reason I seem to recall that it can.

Perhaps the Land Raider that my friend repeatedly brags about will soon become nothing more than slag!

Vladsimpaler wrote:This is the one with the Melta Cannon?

If so, then personally this is the best one hands down. Even better if it can get a Multi Melta. Which for some reason I seem to recall that it can.

Perhaps the Land Raider that my friend repeatedly brags about will soon become nothing more than slag!

With the promise of a new Hellhound kit I'm actually thinking of getting some. I don't want any more Guard tanks, but I am a completist, and my 3-strong Squadron of Hellhounds sits outside the norm of 10-tank tank companies (my other 5 tank units - 3 Russ, 1 Arty, 1 Super-Heavy) all have 10 vehicles. Even my two (soon to be three) Sentinel Companies have 10 Sentinels each. My Hellhounds... there are 3 of them, sitting out there alone in the cold (despite having Inferno Cannons). The presence of a new tanks seems good to me, and I can make up some sort of 'light support' Company - Salamander HQ, 3 Hydras, 3 Cerberus's and 3 Hellhounds.

And yes, it has a Multi-Melta as a Hull option (all of these Hellhound derivatives do). It's expensive, and taking it means that you're kinda wasting your 'Fast'-ness IMO, but if you have to kill a Land Raider, it's the best way to do it. Hopefully the new kit will come with that Hull mount. I can't imagine it wouldn't.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Well Rough Riders haven't gotten any worse. If anything, they're slightly better being 10 points each and using their Lances when they charge rather than just the first round of combat. So RR's will have the same uses they have now.

Just never take Kamir. He's a complete waste of time.

I'm peeved that Kamir has such crappy wargear. A Bolt pistol and a hunting lance? Are you kidding me? Plus he only has two beneficial special rules, one of which does nothing 33% of the time, and the other arguably does nothing during a lance charge. Considering you can take four Riders for his points, the ability to have a slightly tougher squad leader for them is pretty useless.

Why could they not give us Stumper Muckstart instead?

Orlanth wrote:Demolition charges.

I'm OK with these.
____

Vladsimpaler wrote:This is the one with the Melta Cannon?

If so, then personally this is the best one hands down. Even better if it can get a Multi Melta. Which for some reason I seem to recall that it can.

If you have a S8 Melta Cannon and a S8 Multi-Melta, you can't fire them both unless you move <6". So you need to be within 18" to get the Melta effect. Kind of a risky place to be, IMO.

With the sheer amount of AV14 options and numbers possible, I see Hellhound-class vehicles somewhat as also-rans, especially as they don't Transport.

I have a question for you guys who've seen the dex.



Veterans squad, are they up to 10 man?


Also - do 10 men = 1 troop choice? Or is it like the IG platoon entry.. with split..

i.e.
so like i can take 2 vet squads for 1 troop choice?


ALSO - can vets get carapace army?

If so - why don't people just forget about storm troopers.. and field em as vets with carapace.

Orlanth wrote:Three demo charges for 95pts, plus some 'gun drone' guardsmen to get in ther way afterwards.
What do you think a tripled up S8 Ap2 pie plate is going to do to nob bikers? Tie up the nobz (or more honestly watch the sacrifice squad get annihilated then move up the demo charge guys and voila no more 700pt unit.

Demo charges in multiples are respectable, but only if they can actually hit. You have to contend with a weapon that has a low range, against a unit that can easily avoid you thanks to its speed. And even if you hit, they still have a permanent 4+ cover save, taking the sting out of your squad quite handily. Nevermind the fact that the demo charges are not powerful enough to instant kill the nobz, so the average scenario becomes that half the orks under the template each lose a wound, shrug and continue on their way.

Add in the price of the sacrificial squad, and you'd be better off spending all those points on heavy bolters and a prayer.

RogueMarket wrote:Veterans squad, are they up to 10 man?

Also - do 10 men = 1 troop choice? Or is it like the IG platoon entry.. with split..

i.e. so like i can take 2 vet squads for 1 troop choice?

ALSO - can vets get carapace army?

Veterans have a fixed 10 man squad size, and don't come in platoons. So 10 men = Troops slot. If you like carapace, you can get that as one of the three specializations available to the squad, for +3 points per head. I'll be fielding my old Grenadiers as Carapace Veterans, as they cost the same, and the only thing I lose is the AP5 from the old hellguns. On the minus side, I have to take full squads. On the plus plus side, I can have an additional heavy weapon, AND a third special weapon.

Hey, what about spamming the medusa+siege shells as anti-AV14. Sure it is a AV12 vehicle but so is melta vets in a chimera/vendy, and Av14 spam armies probably don't have much AT (unless it is another guard!) and you get to shoot it on turn one. If it survives to shoot twice it would have paid itself in terms of antitank as S10Ap1+2d6 is nuts.

Of course, everything counts in large numbers, and target saturation would be necessary. Here is what I'm thinking about:

unit 1
2xmedusa with siege shell + 1x griffon

unit 2
1x normal medusa + 1x griffon

unit 3
1x normal medusa + 1x griffon


So the griffon would be for ranging and ablative purposes and there should be enough redundancies in the list after doing serious LOS control using chimeras.

-----------
Sure the big griffon unit with perhaps a colossus mixed hiding behind demo/execution russes + ablative standard russ would probably work better in general, but its something to play around with.

EDIT: Ignore this.

Griffons and Medusas don't work well together because the Medusa is not a barrage weapon.

It might be just me, but I really like Bastonne He's able to give Senior Officer orders to his squad, very cool for a vet squad in a chimera acting on their own. Wish he wasn't so expensive tho, but I think i'll use him in casual games.

Chenkov has some real possibility. Take a large conscript squad and make them "renewable". Place them in front of your firebase spread out, if/when they get charged, remove them at the start of your turn, shoot the enemy and then bring them back next turn. Might be able to get a few uses out of them. Plus he makes every unit near him Stubborn and can also use some Senrior Officer orders at 12" (auto rally order).

Al'Rahem seem interesting as well. His ability "Like the Wind!" which is an order that lets a unit "make a Shooting attack and then move D6"". So we could move a unit within rapidfire range, unload some lasguns and a plasmagun, then run D6" away out of assault range, and you can do it with 2 units. Gives some interesting possibilities in a 25man outflanking platoon

at 65 points, Marbo is actually a great deal imo. When he comes in from reserves you can place him anywhere and toss a Demo charge Considering a SWS with a Democharge (and 2 flamers) will run you 65 points as well.... Marbo's democharge has a 100% success rate (in that you will always be able to actually use it!), unlike the SWS which could get killed before they have a chance.


I think Chimeras for Command Squads will be rather common, simply because it gives a nice boost to the diameter of the officer's Order bubble.

Agamemnon2 wrote:Griffons and Medusas don't work well together because the Medusa is not a barrage weapon.

Which is kinda making the Bassie look good again.

My final verdict on the new IG: I'll continue to use the Tyranid Codex to field my genestealer cultists. Not mainly due to the power level, but to the fact that I cannot concievably create an army that would feel like a cult uprising. With cheaper ogryns and some more reliable CC-troops I would have been happier. But I do look forward to fighting against new IG. I think it will be challenging, what with all their squadrons of tanks (who happens to cost a lot of $/£/€ per point) and their cheap chimeras (who happens to cost even more $/£/€ per point) and their powerful vendettas (who are a forgeworld kit...). So opponents with a lot of spendable income will be trickier to fight than poor ones. Much like playing Magic the Gathering :-)

As a side note, I recognise the pattern of "OMG our army suxxors!!!!11!1SHIFT1!!" from many years of playing MMOs. All whining passes with time, it is an interesting (if somewhat uneven) list. Please hold up on the whining, play a few dozen games and let me know how you manage. I'd greatly appreciate it, thanks.

I really want to think of a use that could justify Lukas Bastonne, for 60 points more than a normal vet sergeant, all he gets is a power sword (hope you never have to use it), good leadership and rallying (semi useful), and a hotshot laspistol (don't really care). Then you just end up paying, basically, 50 points for one order on your veteran squad. I could get an entire command squad for 50 points, complete with veteran guardsmen and 2 orders.

ph34r wrote:I really want to think of a use that could justify Lukas Bastonne, for 60 points more than a normal vet sergeant, all he gets is a power sword (hope you never have to use it), good leadership and rallying (semi useful), and a hotshot laspistol (don't really care). Then you just end up paying, basically, 50 points for one order on your veteran squad. I could get an entire command squad for 50 points, complete with veteran guardsmen and 2 orders.

What I don't understand is why is he not a Storm Trooper? He has all the right gear and his ability has a stronger synergy with deeps-striking STs. Even his background reads like he should be a Kasrkin.

Arby strikes again!

HAHA!

I'm just using a ST sergeant with a converted head for Bastonne, and an Orlock heavy with heavy bolter as Harker. Sweet, two special characters I already own!

Of course, Cadian Kasrkin actually are just Veterans with the Grenadier upgrade now.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I was commening on each page as I read it. Furthermore I didn't 'hammer' it with every entry, I stated the bits I liked, the bits I didn't, and the bits I found silly or amusing.

Looking back, that was an unfair generalization on my part. I don't see how you can like the Codex despite the glaring flaws we both agree are present, but that's neither here nor there.

Scottywan82 wrote:I'm just using a ST sergeant with a converted head for Bastonne, and an Orlock heavy with heavy bolter as Harker. Sweet, two special characters I already own!

My version of Harker will be a Goliath heavy, complete with a bright orange mohawk.

ph34r wrote:I really want to think of a use that could justify Lukas Bastonne, for 60 points more than a normal vet sergeant, all he gets is a power sword (hope you never have to use it), good leadership and rallying (semi useful), and a hotshot laspistol (don't really care). Then you just end up paying, basically, 50 points for one order on your veteran squad. I could get an entire command squad for 50 points, complete with veteran guardsmen and 2 orders.

Making them re-roll coversaves from the Demo charge might be useful. That's all I got.

H.B.M.C. wrote:The Cerberus (I refuse to call it the 'Devil Dog') is cheaper than the Banewolf, and doesn't have to get into Krak Grenade/Power Fist range to use its guns.

But the Melta Cannon is small blast and will only hit 1/3 of the time, I don't think its reliable enough to be a counter-charge unit. True the Banewolf will be in Grenade/Fist range, but they'd be hitting on 6's and its possible you could "torrent of fire" out the Fist before it swings.

Personally I think with Guard BS, small blast weapons (unless fired enmasse) aren't statistically reliable enough to be counted on when making decisions in-game.

Edit 1: Unrelated to above discussion but Straken gives Grey Knight Terminators Furious Charge Yeah, no Ogryns for me.

Edit 2: Add a Priest to the Termies for a Chaplin-like effect and help them out vs Vehicles.

kadun wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:The Cerberus (I refuse to call it the 'Devil Dog') is cheaper than the Banewolf, and doesn't have to get into Krak Grenade/Power Fist range to use its guns.

But the Melta Cannon is small blast and will only hit 1/3 of the time, I don't think its reliable enough to be a counter-charge unit. True the Banewolf will be in Grenade/Fist range, but they'd be hitting on 6's and its possible you could "torrent of fire" out the Fist before it swings.

Personally I think with Guard BS, small blast weapons (unless fired enmasse) aren't statistically reliable enough to be counted on when making decisions in-game.

Completely agree. A BS4 melta squad firing out of a chimera is the way to go.

Banewolf seems pretty cool to me - between the turret and its H.flamer it stands a good chance of killing most of a marine squad, and the couple that survive should be easy enough for some infantry or chimeras to mop up. Even if you only get one good shot in before you are popped, it might still be worth it if its a marine command squad or assault squad that takes the templates.

kadun wrote:Edit 1: Unrelated to above discussion but Straken gives Grey Knight Terminators Furious Charge Yeah, no Ogryns for me.

*evil cackle*

Oh that's fantastic. Talk about 'Unforseen Consequences'. LOL!

Are you sure its not "all guard units" - I don't think that kind of special rule would work with allied units from another list.

i don't think the "Cerberus" or the Banewolf will cause the terror that the "Nerfhound" did. people use to put it near the top of the target priority list. i don't feel the 2 new ones cause the same reaction, making them even worth less than Vets in chimeras with meltas.

Edit 1: Unrelated to above discussion but Straken gives Grey Knight Terminators Furious Charge Yeah, no Ogryns for me.

(Blinks while getting sudden revelation ) Emperor have mercy! Get Straken to lead the posse, send Marbo to nuke the enemy HQ and the allied Grey Knights to perform "force recon" Catachan style . Where did I put my Grey Knights? Thanks! This idea is just beautifull.

Kujo wrote:Are you sure its not "all guard units" - I don't think that kind of special rule would work with allied units from another list.

Here is the exact wording -

Cold Steel and Courage: Friendly units within 12" of Straken have the Counter-Attack and Furious Charge universal special rules. This includes Colonel Straken and his Command Squad. - Codex: Arbitrary, Page 60

Grey Knights seem pretty friendly to me...

@ Kujo
it says "all friendly units...", so i'd say he's correct about the GK Termies!

damn, ninja'd by the master!

duplicate!

I guess that's one of those "FAQ IT!" moments where they decide to just shrug and leave it for a later date.

Are you kidding? I doubt they even considered it. Hell, I doubt they'll even realise until someone like points it out to them.

And hey, that's only true until the new Inquisition codex comes out in 2013, after Space Wolves, Dark Eldar, Another Space Marine Chapter, Necrons, Tyranids, Chaos Legions, 6th edition, and 6th edition Space Marines...

and then when someone does point it out it'll be the next Codex before they fix it. and when they fix it, they'll screw up 2 other issues that weren't broken before the first correction was made.... it's almost like they're stuck in a bad loop, always repeating the past. in one form or another.

edit
God i'm slow today! ninja'd by Polonius! that's it i need more coffee.

The best thing is that GW takes so long to FAQ anything, even if it is an unintended usage of that ability that they absolutely hate we'll still be able to use it for about 2 years.

Anything that gives life ( even if unintentionally ) to the ancient, geriatric DH/WH is a big boon. Both armies are de facto neglected by GW. Even in Apocalypse the attention they have received is minimal. I will just thank the Emperor for small favors.

Or perhaps it won't be an issue after inquisition gets redone and there are no allies anymore.

116. Hold on? Where are the pictures? I thought the whole point of the Wargear section was for new players to be able to see what weapons are what easily, as well as presenting the rules for all the weapons in the Codex. So this section does neither of these things. I guess Jervis' son knows what a Lascannon is now.

They don't need to include pictures since they didn't bother to include those weapons in the damn infantry box!

Sigh. I just know I'm going to do a whole IG force out of Wargames Factory greatcoat infantry or Perry Napolionics. Just to show them.

If Straken's FC applies to all friendlies, then what about things like Kroot? Sisters? Sentinels (I4 S6 on the charge)? How about friendly units not in your list, list if you are playing with chaos, marines, ork, or nids on your team? Damn, now I've got to go through the list of allies I can take and see what can be exploited.

Yes to everything. Play Apoc. Take lots of Strakens. Go to town.

I think I just wet myself with the prospect of Straken+GK Terminators.

Was able to have a peek and not sitting down and totally devouring it it looks like it was purposely put in wording so that Grey Knights would benefit and be even more so used in Imperial Guard armies.

Especially considering some of the just insane rules.

Just a few interesting combos.

Add a Primaris Psyker as a Independent Character to a Greyknight Squad; use nightshroud.

Now the enemy has to pass two tests in order to fire at them. One for Nightshroud a Leadership test ; One for the Greyknights ability.

Add in that Orders work on FRIENDLY units; IE you can I assume give an order to a Greyknight squad and I am assuming have them Automatically pass it.

Pretty impressive.

Well, that's one place in the book where an arbitrary restriction would be welcome, and wouldn't you know it, there is no such rule anywhere!

Been doing the math for a while now, trying to build lists on paper to match my collection and the kind of lists I took earlier. The new book doesn't really let me take any more models than before, and several options are completely infeasible. I won't be able to fit even my token Ogryn squad at under 1750 points.

Yeah the furious charge is just one of the benefits Greyknights can benefit from.

Here you go this is something that is kind of slowed.

Creed
Creed and Command in Valkyrie.


Greyknight HQ Terms w/ Dedicated Landraider Crusader.

Landraider recieves scout ; Moves 12 ; your turn Moves 12 Valkyries Follow behind deploy Command

Congrats 8 S6 PW Terminators w/ on the first Turn.


Thats also not alot of points.

Now add in that you can have special weapons multiple advisors. Etc..

Also go ahead and place a Greykngiht normal Squad in that 2nd and 3rd Valkyrie. They have Scout already.


Congrats

You now have 2 units of Greyknights in H to H on most likely the first turn add in that you can have another squad of Terminators in H t H.

Hurraaaay.

IE you can I assume give an order to a Greyknight squad and I am assuming have them Automatically pass it.

Why would they automatically pass it -- taking orders is a leadership test not a morale test.

Interesting combo is Al'Rahem's order and greyknights or ogryn. Basically gives em fleet as long as they shoot. Too bad Al-rahem has to outflank.

Hollismason wrote:Thats also not alot of points.

I think this sentence is a ruinous lie when applied to anything Grey Knight related, doubly so to a Brother Captain with a retinue mounted on a Land Raider.

Greyknight HQ Terms w/ Dedicated Landraider Crusader.

Landraider recieves scout

Grey Knights have no dedicated transports. Only inquistors can take land raiders as dedicated transports.

I want to put up a couple of clarifications that I noticed when i got to take a look at the book.

Some of this stuff is conflicting on the net. This is from the english codex....

command squads CAN issue orders and fire their guns, they can issue orders to themselves.

Units that pass a leadership check on double ones to receive an order can NOT receive an additional order. The officer that issued the order may issue an additional order that turn. Upon passing with a double one the unit that passed stilll immediately executes the order.

Nothing happens to any unit if a double 6 is rolled on an order. It is basically exactly like battlefleet gothic. If a double 6 is rolled, that order fails, and no more orders may be issued that turn. All units, including the one that rolled double 6's may act normally.


The commissar in the troop unit acts slightly different than it sounded based on the internet.

He is leadership 9, makes the unit stubborn AND has summary execution. Summary execution took a nerf, but it really saves us from 'no retreat' wounds.

Basically, you can use the commissar's leadership of 9 straight away now. If you fail that 9 for moral only (not to pass an order or to be pinned or regroup) He executes the model with the highest leadership. They put a parenthesis to clarify that he will never execute himself. If you have a tie, it is randomly determined. Be careful here with sergeants with different upgrades. You won't be able to choose which sergeant dies. Once he executes that model, the unit may RE-ROLL the morale test. This is obviously not as good as 'assumed to pass'. But the problem with 'assumed to pass' is that its automatic and thus triggers 'no retreat'.

One other note on summary execution. Since it is now a re-roll to morale tests, you can't use the flag to also re-roll. But could you trigger the flag re-roll before the commissar summarily executed someone? Probably not. I believe the summary exececution triggers immediately after a fail, so their wouldn't be any time for you to use wargear before he shot someone.

Couldn't find the points of a couple things on the net so I looked them up. The regimental standard and each bodyguard are one point less than a space marine.

btw, played a cities of death game with a choppy command squad for fun. Beat a terminator unit with it (non storm shielded). I had company commander with power fist, medic, regimental standard and two bodyguards. I kept washing power fist wounds through the refractor field and on a fail I'd assign to a bodyguard. I'm guessing that the unit could SHRED combat squads with that combination and probably much larger units as well.

Consdiering the basic price of basic imperial guard ; greyknights are a excellent addition.

Alot of people keep mentioning the price increase in tanks but; your basic troops have been reduced.

Edit:

How about

Creed + Command Squad + Astropath

3 Demolishers outflanking because of Scout

2 Squads of Greyknights in Vendettas Outflanking because of scout and being able to deepstrike out of a vendetta ( Troops leaving auto get this )

I fear the outflanking Demolishers.

Its still an understrength squad with expensive extra wounds, though. You can make a nasty powerweapon / fist squad, but the points you end up paying for it would be more efficiently spent on some heavy or special weapons imo.

I kept washing power fist wounds through the refractor field and on a fail I'd assign to a bodyguard.

I think you played that wrong. Bodyguards allow you to re-allocate wounds, not unsaved wounds -- there's a difference and it is detailed in the complex unit rules. All bodyguards do is allow you to re-allocate wounds given to the commander to your bodyguards before saves are made. Still nice but not as nice as being able to re-allocate unsaved wounds.

Nice breakdown on the comissar though -- with stubborn in play now I see the re-roll as better then invoking no retreat via an assumed to have passed ability.

so now that Vets "have" to be ten men squads, what heavy weapon are people going to use in Vet squads, if any?
with my shotgun/meltagun vets i'm torn between the HB or lascannon. i gave them the shotguns and meltas so everyone could move and shoot. i'm leaning towards the HB. now for the plasma/lasgun vets i'm thinking the obvious choice (to me) is the AC. what do the masses think?

I'm using Harker and skipping a heavy weapon. 3 meltas, demo, and harker. Look out, tanks! You're fethed!

Id say none of the above and use the points elsewhere.

I'm inclined to agree. maxing out on the special weapons should be enough.

Around here people swear by vets with meltas / plasmas and an autocannon.

Personally I'm going with shotgun grenadiers with a plasma gun and power weapon.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

pakman wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:What I expect to see are endless iterations of Ursarkar E. Creed's Flying Circus, with a choral accompaniment from from Psykers in Chimeras.

I honestly don't think the Valkyrie is worth it. It costs 10 more points than a Wave Serpent and isn't as survivable. Honestly, what are you going to be putting in this thing than you want close to a target? Now, if I could carry Howling Banshees in it, that's a different story. I would still expect the main transport to be Chimeras as I can't think of one good use for the Valkyrie.

Valkyries? They're useless and overcosted. What I expect to see are 3 to 9 Vendettas carrying nothing.

I see a lot of people over joygasming on the vendettas and i'm seeing people take 6-9 vendettas gaking their pants about the 3x TL lascannons.

They are great - great on paper.


i mean i'm pretty sure a lot people recognize... you can't move 12''+ and shoot all three, and expect to get a cover save. . . .

You'd have to be stationary to shoot all three lol.


Yikes.

BrookM wrote:Around here people swear by vets with meltas / plasmas and an autocannon.

Personally I'm going with shotgun grenadiers with a plasma gun and power weapon.

If you want shotguns, I'd suggest taking assault weapons like melta guns or grenade launchers. The only advantage a shotgun has over a lasgun is that you can assault after shooting (something that you can't do if you plan on shooting plasmas).

It's a real shame that shotguns have so few uses. Back in 3rd edition when rapid fire weapons could only shoot once after moving, shotguns were the obvious choice for mobile forces. Now a days with rapid fire weapons shooting twice after movement, shotguns are pretty useless.

I can't wait to use the "Take it down!" order.
Uberfex, say hello to my Lascannon battery!
muahahahaha!

A Valkyrie costs £34.25, The Vendetta forgeworld upgrade kit will probably cost £11.75 (that's what the tank upgrade kits costs). So thats £46 for a Vendetta, roughly £15 per TL lascannon. Multiply by 6-9. It means that the rich kids (and the grownups with a lot of spendable income) will get much better armies than the kids with workingclass parents. And it makes me wish I could buy some GW-stock, because they will make some serious money the second quarter of -09.

@RogueMarket: They are fast vehicles, that's pretty nasty compared to heavy weapon teams. But I agree with you. I think they will suffer from the same identity crisis as the old(est) LandRaider configuration that couldnt quite decide if it was a tankhunter tank or an assaultvehicle. Thank the Emperor for the Crusader pattern, right? :-)

The answer to Valks is simple:
Hydra squadron. twelve 72" twinlinked autocannon shots that deny skimmer movement saves should do fine against front armor 12. maybe not an end-all to the valk, but still a threat.
Shouldn't be too hard of a conversion. Just get some chimera chassis and set to work.

IDK if anyone notice this combination.



(USE THE COMBINE SQUAD RULE)

100 pt squad

5x Command Squad –
-4x Flamers
6x Special Weapons Squad
-3x flamers


Throw them in a chimera - mix and match - and add a melta while your at it.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kujo wrote:Are you sure its not "all guard units" - I don't think that kind of special rule would work with allied units from another list.

Here is the exact wording -

Cold Steel and Courage: Friendly units within 12" of Straken have the Counter-Attack and Furious Charge universal special rules. This includes Colonel Straken and his Command Squad. - Codex: Arbitrary, Page 60

Grey Knights seem pretty friendly to me...

This wont last much beyond release of Codex Inquisitor but I can still see Iron Hand Straken being as staple of double tournaments. Howling Banshees, yay.

RogueMarket wrote:IDK if anyone notice this combination.



(USE THE COMBINE SQUAD RULE)

100 pt squad

5x Command Squad –
-4x Flamers
6x Special Weapons Squad
-3x flamers


Throw them in a chimera - mix and match - and add a melta while your at it.

No we didnt because only basic ten man infantry squads combine.

RogueMarket wrote:IDK if anyone notice this combination.



(USE THE COMBINE SQUAD RULE)

100 pt squad

5x Command Squad –
-4x Flamers
6x Special Weapons Squad
-3x flamers


Throw them in a chimera - mix and match - and add a melta while your at it.

Sorry dude. Combine only works with regular platoons. No Commmand, HVys, conscripts, special..etc. Just basic line platoons.

haha you are right - damn i wasn't reading the exacts of the wording.

nonetheless - its still time to bust out a lot of flamers no doubt?

RogueMarket wrote:You'd have to be stationary to shoot all three lol.

No you don't, Vendettas are Fast.

Maybe this is just my wishful thinking but it says up to 3 guardsmen in a special weapons squad must swap their lasguns for a special weapon, and then lists the options. However the demo-charge doesnt say replace a weapon, just take it. Can I take 3 demo charges and give those guys special weapons too?

Neconilis wrote:

RogueMarket wrote:You'd have to be stationary to shoot all three lol.

No you don't, Vendettas are Fast.

might have a brain fart.. i apologize (dont rip me apart folks!)

even if you could move and shoot all three - move 6'' tops?

I mean. for sure.. yo can't move 12'' and fire al lascannons... can you?


i need to re read my rulebook...



edit:
ah yeah - so you can move 6'', but it till wont give you any cover save... right. so..

CplPunishment wrote:It's a real shame that shotguns have so few uses. Back in 3rd edition when rapid fire weapons could only shoot once after moving, shotguns were the obvious choice for mobile forces. Now a days with rapid fire weapons shooting twice after movement, shotguns are pretty useless.

It would help if GW would make all shotguns S4 like the SM scouts have now.

RogueMarket wrote:

Neconilis wrote:

RogueMarket wrote:You'd have to be stationary to shoot all three lol.

No you don't, Vendettas are Fast.

might have a brain fart.. i apologize (dont rip me apart folks!)

even if you could move and shoot all three - move 6'' tops?

I mean. for sure.. yo can't move 12'' and fire al lascannons... can you?


i need to re read my rulebook...



edit:
ah yeah - so you can move 6'', but it till wont give you any cover save... right. so..

Exactly. The way to get multiple firing guns out of a fast flying aircraft here is to take the Valkyrie and rocket pods.

Fire the multi laser as the main weapon add two s4 large blasts as defensive weapons on the side. I am not buying the hype for the Vendetta, its good as a throwaway strike vehicle for 130pts move 6" fire once at the land raider hopefully make the kill then die. Valkyrie has a purpose, move a good ways do its transport duties and shoot useful amounts of firepower while maintaining a cover save. Sadly this also costs 130pts done right and Guard are not exactly short of low strength weaponry or pie plates; still its an ork killer. Heavy bolters are cheap at +10pts for two, but again they will drop your aircraft to a 6" move.

Or you could deep strike and then fire all three. That might work.

Scottywan82 wrote:Or you could deep strike and then fire all three. That might work.

Deep Striking vehicles count as moving at Cruising speed. Only 1 main weapon allowed.

The Vendetta survives early turns either through target saturation (which of these 9 AV 12 vehicles are you going to shoot?), or by using the Scout move to get way out on a flank, where the 48" lascannons can work without too much molestation from shorter-ranged return fire.

I am thinking the Vendettas will be fun in a squad of 2, maybe with something inside, waiting in reserves. With your +1 to reserve rolls they sally in on a short board edge 6", pop some rear/side armor for so long as they live, and if your opponant allows them to make it to turn 5, they zip over and contest something awkward to reach. With an infantry unit inside to score, and only moving 6", you can even ninja an objective while not worrying if the vehicle gets smoked.

I am thinking that guard will have a very strong ability to land shots on rear armor, meaning only monoliths and landraiders are safe from their outflanking (relatively speaking).

Wehrkind wrote:I am thinking the Vendettas will be fun in a squad of 2, maybe with something inside, waiting in reserves. With your +1 to reserve rolls they sally in on a short board edge 6", pop some rear/side armor for so long as they live, and if your opponant allows them to make it to turn 5, they zip over and contest something awkward to reach. With an infantry unit inside to score, and only moving 6", you can even ninja an objective while not worrying if the vehicle gets smoked.

I am looking forward to seeing other IG players figure out where to put the Vendettas when they only move 6" from the table edge. Does that even allow the model's base onto the table? I foresee a lot of guys putting a marker on the table to show the forward edge of the Vendetta while their expensive and pretty model remains somewhere safe.

I agree that they will make opponents with armor very uncomfortable. The all infantry armies (gaunts, ork hordes, 200+ IG, Necron foot) will probably cackle in amusement, but I see those armies more and more infrequently. Perhaps they'll make a comeback? Nah, too difficult to move and tote for tourney games.

According to the French summary the 'Fusil a pompe' is still S3.

Shotguns are confirmed at S3. No need to look at the leaked sheet anymore.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:According to the French summary the 'Fusil a pompe' is still S3.

Yes, I know. And so is the Escopeta in the Spanish version. I still think S3 shotguns serve a purpose but only on Hardened Veteran Sergeants who get one for free and have no other cheap option except CCW and laspistol. Too bad GW didn't include a shotgun in the command squad sprues. Hello Forge World!

A Priest can also get a shotgun. I just like the image of Friar Tuck with a pump-action. "IN THE EMPEROR'S NAME! *shick-shick*"

I think maybe more Uriah Jacobus with the infamous one-handed shotgun.

Ogiwan wrote:A Priest can also get a shotgun.

5 more points gets you a whole squad of Guardsmen. I'd rather have a squad than a 45-point T3 W1 model with a BS3 S3 AP- Assault 2 Shotgun.

Scottywan82 wrote:I think maybe more Uriah Jacobus with the infamous one-handed shotgun.

When talking about one-handed shotguns, there can be only one:

Hmm...this codex is looking more and more like 'Codex: Grey Knights, Iron Hand Straken and Friends.'


The Primaris Psyker and the Grey Knights also sound like lots of fun!

Vladsimpaler wrote:Hmm...this codex is looking more and more like 'Codex: Grey Knights, Iron Hand Straken and Friends.'


The Primaris Psyker and the Grey Knights also sound like lots of fun!

I wouldn't say that, I think there are a few nice builds that I will by trying.

Another fun combo: Weaken Resolve - Divine Pronouncement. Even with all the Fearless troops out there, I think this combo is the Codex's Lash of Submission.

An inquisitor can be killed a lot more easily than a daemon prince, just toss a few spare bolter shots his way and he dies.
edit:typo

ph34r wrote:An inquisitor can be killed a lot more easily than a daemon prince, just toss a few spare bolter shots his way and he dies.
edit:typo

Well the Inquisitor is an Independent Character that you attach to the Psyker Battle Squad thats riding around in a Chimera.

Yeah, but then you are driving around with a bunch of t3 units within 18 (more like 14 given measuring from the hatch) of the enemy. You are quite at risk of being assaulted and wiped out.

*grin* I can imagine two psyker battle squads, each with a WH inq casting weaken resolve and hammer of the witches on eachother.

- "Burn, you demonspawn!"
- "No, you shall burn for fraternizing with the infernal powers!"
- "No, you burn!"
- "No, you!"
- "No, you!"
etc...
And the Overseer will kill 1d3 psykers for each Perils attack.

This combo could actually work against eldar Seercounsils on jetbikes. Maybe not so good if they are pimped with all the runes etc.


The psyker squad can also be put 6-12" from a culexus assassin to give him an Assault 11 gun, it will hurt the psyker squads Ld though.

Weaken resolve + Neural shredder could be fun as well. A bit situational, but it's an ap1 template, great fun for hunting deepstriking termies.

ph34r wrote:Yeah, but then you are driving around with a bunch of t3 units within 18 (more like 14 given measuring from the hatch) of the enemy. You are quite at risk of being assaulted and wiped out.

That's where player skill in movement and positioning comes in. The aim being to get the only enemy unit within range of your Chimera and can hurt it, to be the one that will be running away. I certainly hope players won't be driving lone Chimeras into the teeth of an opposing army just to pull off this trick, its not as point and click as Abbaddon + Berzerkers + Land Raider.

I will agree that it cuts the effective range of Weaken Resolve in half, but it does do a similar job as Lash of Submission, i.e. keeping dangerous assault units away.

So thinking of my 30 stormies I have sitting around, would it be better just to use them as vets with carapice and 3 assault weapons, or as actual Stormtroopers? I wouldn't mix and match so there'd be no confusion, but I'm leaning toward the vets option, as even with the carapice upgrade, they'd still be cheaper points wise and three assault weapons is always better than 2. And they're scoring units too.

Considering the price differences from just the naked squads, I'd go the Carapace Veterans route. You would even be able to afford at least one Valkyrie to offset the loss of Deep Strike, and still be cheaper than three ten-strong ST squads.

kadun wrote:

ph34r wrote:Yeah, but then you are driving around with a bunch of t3 units within 18 (more like 14 given measuring from the hatch) of the enemy. You are quite at risk of being assaulted and wiped out.

That's where player skill in movement and positioning comes in. The aim being to get the only enemy unit within range of your Chimera and can hurt it, to be the one that will be running away. I certainly hope players won't be driving lone Chimeras into the teeth of an opposing army just to pull off this trick, its not as point and click as Abbaddon + Berzerkers + Land Raider.

I will agree that it cuts the effective range of Weaken Resolve in half, but it does do a similar job as Lash of Submission, i.e. keeping dangerous assault units away.

I agree that it will be useful, but it's a fragile 3 KP unit with low range, which makes it not as good as a daemonprince. It also costs more.

I played a friendly 1500 point game against a deathwing army today, annihilation. It was brutal. I nearly tabled the guy, he conceded in turn 5.
short list:

CCS w/ 4 meltas in chimera
vets, 3 meltas, chimera
vets 3 meltas, chimera
Executioner, w plaz cannons and hb

punisher w/ tank dude & HB's (killed 3 marines)
squadroned w/ executioner all plaz

demolisher w/ MM's and LC

6 stormies w/ 2 meltas (deepstriking with a re-roll perfect scatter for a turn 2 Landraider kill! the 1st roll would have been ugly)

The game was table quarters, he set up 1st, I decided to hold everything in reserve. nearly everything hit in turn 2

I'd be more inclined to use the Choir to make enemies fail Pinning tests from barrages, that way I can keep them further back to live longer. Even with a few casualties, a 10-strong Choir can greatly increase the odds of non-Fearless troops being pinned. And if thus inclined, you can always Soulstorm them on the following turn.

Can someone remind me of the stats of the culexis' weapons? I'm intrigued by the choir-culexis combo suggested above, but as I don't use a culexis right now I can't remember his stats.

Kujo wrote:Can someone remind me of the stats of the culexis' weapons? I'm intrigued by the choir-culexis combo suggested above, but as I don't use a culexis right now I can't remember his stats.

Animus Speculum: Range 12", S5, AP1, Assault 2
+1 shot for each psyker within 12"
And the assassin is of course BS5, so most it's shots will hit.

Let me know if you play a game with it. It is purely theorycrafting from my side.

holy crap that's evil

So if I empty a chimera and put a culexis in it, then drive that chimera next to the psyker chimera, the choir will use its -Ld power while the culexis can use his 11-shot pistol of sickness out of his chimera's firepoint, right? He's like an anti-MEQ gatling gun.

Kujo wrote:So if I empty a chimera and put a culexis in it, then drive that chimera next to the psyker chimera, the choir will use its -Ld power while the culexis can use his 11-shot pistol of sickness out of his chimera's firepoint, right? He's like an anti-MEQ gatling gun.

I see a tiny problem with this scenario. Namely the Culexus special rule "Soulless". If you put him next to the Psykers, the Choir has an effective Leadership of 7. So you can´t count on them pulling any Psychic support ( like "Weaken resolve" ). But the huge number of shots you get for the assassin is still good.

EDIT: Holy crap. Post #1999 on this thread.

So, while old guard toys that never worked (ratlings? melee? stormtroopers?) still don't work, a whole bunch of new inquisition toys are now possible through side-effects of the dex?....

fate has dealt a strange hand indeed.

I forsee much wailing and gnashing of teeth when GW take away the ability to ally the two forces. My Grey Knight + Gaurd playing friend will be happy though.

The Culexis is eeeeeevil.

Grimaldi wrote:

Scottywan82 wrote:I think maybe more Uriah Jacobus with the infamous one-handed shotgun.

When talking about one-handed shotguns, there can be only one:

But as there is no 40K undead army usefulness is somewhat diminished.

I know my old favorite tank has been relabeled "nerfhound" by this crowd, but I want to express dissent in its new title. My friend and I played a test game yesterday with the new IG codex, and my two hounds were in top form. 12" plus the template still gives an awful lot of options at range, and being fast lets me get a pretty wide array of shots in, with the option of only moving 6" and firing the heavy bolter also. The nicest change, in my opinion, was having the flame template always hit. Granted, it was pretty accurate before, but autohitting stuff out to 20" after moving the tank was very nice. I did have to be more careful with it when dealing with melta armed troops, but I didn't find it crippling.

The real problem with the Hound in the new Codex, however, is that the Griffon is back, it's effin' awesome, and it's cheap as dirt.

Ooooh! Anecdotal evidence. So tasty, yet so unfilling.

besides, it's not a shotgun. that's a "Boomstick"!!!

Biophysic wrote:
The real problem with the Hound in the new Codex, however, is that the Griffon is back, it's effin' awesome, and it's cheap as dirt.

This, I think, is going to be the hellhound's biggest problem since you can get two griffons for a little over the price of one hellhound. So far, I've managed to get one test game in with the new IG book and the griffons performed as expected and killed several squads of marines over the span of six turns and even caused several squads to be pinned (the -1 LD is pretty huge).

The one saving grace of the hellhound though is that it is a fast attack choice so if you max out your heavy support on other stuff you can still take some hellhounds. Personally though, I like the ability to fire from a safe distance and cause pinning (thus setting up any unit that you don't wipe out for more of the same on the next turn).

H.B.M.C. wrote:Ooooh! Anecdotal evidence. So tasty, yet so unfilling.

To be fair, to date nobody has presented any statistical evidence either.

Another Weaken Resolve - Divine Pronouncement trick:

pg. 46 BGB: Troops who are falling back automatically fail all Morale checks, except those to regroup.

pg. 45 BGB: Units make a fall back move immediately upon failing a Morale test.

So, Psyker Battle Squad + Inquisitor Lord + Inquisitor + Guns.

Weaken Resolve to drop Leadership of target unit to effecively 2.

Inquisitor Lord Divine Pronouncement to make target unit take a Leadership Test at 2, assume they fail test and fall back 2D6".

Inquisitor Divine Pronouncement to make target unit take a Leadership Test which they automatically fail and fall back another 2D6".

Shoot target squad just enough to do 25% casualties, at the end of the Shooting Phase target unit automatically fails leadership test and falls back another 2D6".

Fear of the Darkness, eat your heart out.

I'm also looking forward to Weaken Resolve -> 25% casualties -> charge with 10 Guardsmen to wipe out Nob Biker Squads

tomguycot wrote:

Biophysic wrote:
The real problem with the Hound in the new Codex, however, is that the Griffon is back, it's effin' awesome, and it's cheap as dirt.

This, I think, is going to be the hellhound's biggest problem since you can get two griffons for a little over the price of one hellhound. So far, I've managed to get one test game in with the new IG book and the griffons performed as expected and killed several squads of marines over the span of six turns and even caused several squads to be pinned (the -1 LD is pretty huge).

The one saving grace of the hellhound though is that it is a fast attack choice so if you max out your heavy support on other stuff you can still take some hellhounds. Personally though, I like the ability to fire from a safe distance and cause pinning (thus setting up any unit that you don't wipe out for more of the same on the next turn).

I'm still liking the idea of adding a multimelta to the Hellhound. With it being a fast vehicle, it's versitile as either anti infantry or anti tank.

And adding the heavy flamer to the chimera. Lots and lots of fire to make orks do the 'burney dance'.

kadun wrote:Another Weaken Resolve - Divine Pronouncement trick:

pg. 46 BGB: Troops who are falling back automatically fail all Morale checks, except those to regroup.

pg. 45 BGB: Units make a fall back move immediately upon failing a Morale test.

So, Psyker Battle Squad + Inquisitor Lord + Inquisitor + Guns.

Weaken Resolve to drop Leadership of target unit to effecively 2.

Inquisitor Lord Divine Pronouncement to make target unit take a Leadership Test at 2, assume they fail test and fall back 2D6".

Inquisitor Divine Pronouncement to make target unit take a Leadership Test which they automatically fail and fall back another 2D6".

Shoot target squad just enough to do 25% casualties, at the end of the Shooting Phase target unit automatically fails leadership test and falls back another 2D6".

Fear of the Darkness, eat your heart out.

I'm also looking forward to Weaken Resolve -> 25% casualties -> charge with 10 Guardsmen to wipe out Nob Biker Squads

Great, now let's look at what I need to buy...

Daemonhunters Codex
Inquisitors
GK Terminators
Sanctioned Psykers
Iron Hand Straken
Ursarker E. Creed
Chimeras


Crap. That's a lot of stuff. GW is good at selling stuff.

I played a fairly rough playtest game yesterday. 1,200 pts vs Tau.

Wasnt a particularly well tuned or designed army, really just a rough quick game to see how some of the new stuff plays.

So my army was basically...

Basic Company Command

Platoon Command (4 meltas)
x4 Lascannon/Plasma squads

Platoon Command (4 meltas)
x4 Lascannon/Plasma squads

Standard Russ (x3 HB)
Standard Russ (x3 HB)

He was running a heavily mechanized Tau list. 3 Hammerheads, couple Piranhas, 2-3 squads of Fire Warriors in Devilfish.

Kill points, standard deployment. he went first.

It being Kill Points and him having no assault units and my wanting to test out the ameoba rules, I mobbed everything up big. Two 40 man groups.

My tanks didnt get to do a whole lot (thinned down his Fire Warrior squads a little before getting killed by Railgun fire). So didnt get to test out the new Russ firing rules as much as I'd like.

The 4 Lascannon squads with the Twin-Linked orders took a horrible toll on his mechanized list though. Which was especially rough given that it was a kill point mission. Basically the blob platoons were inflicting a kill point a turn each by popping vehicles while absorbing a massive amount of firepower due to all those ablative wounds. He kept his Fire Warriors outside of 24" from my blob platoons but within 30" so they could take advantage of Tau rifle range. I was worried that he'd Devilfish everything into rapid fire range then maul a blob platoon... but we discussed it and I think he was right. The blobs were in cover so he wouldnt have done enough damage to shut them down... and the fire warriors wouldve been gunned down during my turn. The HQ units werent really a viable target given that they were lurking back behind terrain and line of sight wouldve been unlikely.

While on the subject of blob platoons, he was doing a little playtesting of his own, wanting to see if the huge platoons could be abused by pinning checks. All the drones popping off of Pirhanas, Devilfish, Hammerheads, etc zipped up into range and zapped away with Pulse Carbines to force a great many pinning checks. Only failed a couple during the course of the entire game but shutting down the blob platoons for those turns was unpleasant. High risk though (as he knew) since it was fairly amusing to fire 60 FRFSRF lasrifle shots, 4 lascannon shots, and 8 plasma shots into 2 drones for a KP.

So at any rate, end of game he still had quite a bit on the board. He did eventually manage to kill both Russes, one blob, and a platoon HQ. But everything else was hunkered down in cover, still firing, and I'd already killed enough KP that the game was effectively over.

Needless to say... it felt REALLY odd at the end of the game when we were discussing that Guard was at a major advantage in this particlar KP mission.




And yes, it's an odd matchup, a playtest game, etc. And isnt terribly useful in passing judgment on the new codex.But despite HBMC's comment earlier... anecdotal evidence is human, often fun to read, and often easier to understand than statistics. Personally I'm a fan of anecdotes AND statistics.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Ooooh! Anecdotal evidence. So tasty, yet so unfilling.

To be fair, to date nobody has presented any statistical evidence either.

Here's the simple math of the Hellhound, but it has a lot if unquantifiables because of its speed and shape of the template and how prevalent terrain is on the board.

Old Hellhound: Hits a model it touches 3/4ths of the time.
New Hellhound: Hits a model it touches 100% of the time.

Old Hellhound: Can hit a model at 24" away.
New Hellhound: Can hit a model 20" away.

Distance Meltagun must move to be w/in 6" of old Hellhound if fired at from max range: 18"
Distance Meltagun must move to be w/in 6" of new Hellhound if fired at from max range: 12"

Old Hellhound: Can move 6" before firing its Inferno Cannon.
New Hellhound: Can move 6" before firing its Inferno Cannon and Heavy Bolter, or 12" before firing its Inferno Cannon.

Old Hellhound: Can move 12" maximum.
New Hellhound: Can move 18" maximum.

Old Hellhound: 115 points
New Hellhound: 130 points

That's all the math I know how to do in this particular scenario, if anybody else has math on the Hellhound they'd like to contribute, please feel free. I will admit that I was giving anecdotal evidence, but I wasn't just saying "Hellhound is awesome! I tried it and it still rocks!" I was attempting to explain based on play experience why I think the new version is still worth considering.

But seriously, the Griffon is murder on a stick.

Ivan wrote:While on the subject of blob platoons, he was doing a little playtesting of his own, wanting to see if the huge platoons could be abused by pinning checks.

The short answer is no. The long answer is 'you have a gakking order that makes your men get back up and start shooting if they are pinned.

Kungfuhustler wrote:

Ivan wrote:While on the subject of blob platoons, he was doing a little playtesting of his own, wanting to see if the huge platoons could be abused by pinning checks.

The short answer is no. The long answer is 'you have a gakking order that makes your men get back up and start shooting if they are pinned.

This is why I believe the Guard HQ`s will become high priority targets. They have a solution for almost any tactical situation ( concentrated fire versus tanks, volleyfire against infantry and recovery for pinned units ), so neutralizing them is worth the trouble. Using Barrage weapons, headhunting flanker units or simply a huge amount of regular fire are all viable tactics.

There was an earlier post that compared the hellhounds as well. He said that while the range you can throw the template has been reduced, you now only have to put the small end of the template within the 12" - meaning you can stretch it out longways (making it 12" + length of template range). Combine that with the extra distance you can move and fire as a fast vehicle and now the hellhound has a net gain in its range.

I don't have my BRB in this hemisphere, so can someone remind me what the LOS rules are for firing with a squad? As I recall, as long as one of your models can see one of his, you can fire with everything. But if over half his models have cover from half of yours, then they get cover saves. Is that correct?

If so, does that mean a 50-man blob with 5 autocannons spread out across the table can shoot all 5 of them at a tank 24 men (and possibly all of the autocannons) of the platoon can't even see? That is, assuming you are in coherency?

Like I said, we were playing really rough. Didnt even have the new codex in-hand at the time and we were operating off memory. Frankly I owe my opponent a favor for agreeing to help me test. It was late in the evening and he was pretty tired. Had to talk him into playing a quick game.

I just read over "Get back in the fight", and this may be a silly question... but it seems to come up ocassionally at the store...

Is going to ground the same as being pinned?

Cause GBITF undoes GTG but doesnt mention pinned.

Sorry if this has come up before but there ARE 68 pages in this thread. Not to mention the locked previous threads. I've kept up with the pages quite well over time but yeah.




As for hellhound ranges, it's important to keep in mind that max range new version might get you 2-3 models under the template at extreme/near extreme range. Current version will get you quite a bit more than that in the same general range. So if you're hoping to bracket lots of guys and cause lots of casualties (which is what the Hellhound is for) with the new version you're really going to be blazing at a unit that is 10-14" or so away. So able to walk/assault 12". Of course if you're coming up at an oblique angle or something and can get the entire line at 12+template... yeah.

Still, there IS a difference between 12"+twist the template 180 degrees and 24" twist any way.

Who would have thought it 6 months ago if someone had told us there would be fierce competetion for FA slots and no competition for Elite slots?

Ivan wrote:Who would have thought it 6 months ago if someone had told us there would be fierce competetion for FA slots and no competition for Elite slots?

Heh, so true . But personally I do have a small dilemma about the Elites. "Sly" Marbo will take one slot no questions asked but the remaining two have several posssible takers. Inquisitors, Assassins and Grey Knight Terminators ( and heck yeah even the cuddly Ogryns for friendly matches ) are all sending polite notes to my Regimental CO about joining her Task Force.

Blob Platoons are going to be awesome for KP missions, and imo objective missions.

The key, i think, is sticking a commissar in the mix. This gives them a very low chance of failing a morale test and also means they wont be easily swept off the objective.

CCS are powerful, the orders they can give (auto rally, TL, reroll enemy cover) are very powerful. Investing in a Standard and a Medic (especially if you invested in advisors) might not be a horrible idea. Also, it just makes Creed's 24" bubble and 4 orders all the more powerful.



As for Hellhounds. They do not appear to be a horrible unit by any means, it's just that there is a lot of competition in the Fast slots (Valks w/ missile pods, Vendettas, ect). I am sure people will be able to use HH to great effect It will be interesting to see which IG builds are able to have success in at tournies. Who knows, perhaps the 9 HH "Burny Death List" will be awesome

Kujo wrote:There was an earlier post that compared the hellhounds as well. He said that while the range you can throw the template has been reduced, you now only have to put the small end of the template within the 12" - meaning you can stretch it out longways (making it 12" + length of template range). Combine that with the extra distance you can move and fire as a fast vehicle and now the hellhound has a net gain in its range.

It's only a gain in range (by 2") if your opponents squad is in a line stretching towards you. More likely you will still want to place the template sideways, and lose range.

For those who are wondering about the Special Characters;

Nork Deddog is back.
Sly Marbo is back. He is now called Guardsman Marbo.
Commissar Yarrick is still around.



**Edited because I fail.

Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote:For those who are wondering about the Special Characters;
Solar Macharius is back.
So is Colonel Schaeffer.

Didn't see them in the Codex.

Other than the fluff section for the Penal Squad about Schaeffer.

Amoeba'd up Infantry Squads is pure win. You can flip between having 11 Scoring units to having just 4 Kill Points, all with the same 2 Troops Choices.

Had a quick jotting session, and you can fit 4 Infantry squads and command squad, a second one of them, Creed (mandatory it seems) 3 Leman Russ and 3 Vanqusihers all in 1500 points. And It only gives away 7 KP? yes Please.

Wait a second... Don't Creed and all them count as upgrade characters? Does that mean they count as a KP? If not then its only 6KP but whatever.


And Schaeffer is not in the codex at all... Unless I've had a page fall out or something (I too only see the fluff, and no mention of him in the summer)

ph34r wrote:

Kujo wrote:There was an earlier post that compared the hellhounds as well. He said that while the range you can throw the template has been reduced, you now only have to put the small end of the template within the 12" - meaning you can stretch it out longways (making it 12" + length of template range). Combine that with the extra distance you can move and fire as a fast vehicle and now the hellhound has a net gain in its range.

It's only a gain in range (by 2") if your opponents squad is in a line stretching towards you. More likely you will still want to place the template sideways, and lose range.

Or if it's a deep unit like ork mobs or gaunt broods, but point well taken. I probably wouldn't take a HH if I wasn't fighting orks, nids, or tau anyways, though. The rocket valk seems like a more reliable multipurpose template-dropper against MEQs since they get armor saves that are better than the cover saves a HH would deny. The valk can still move pretty far, drops more templates and will almost always have LOS without blocking your other units.

But a griffon is 75 points. Hmmm.

I'm still liking the idea of Bassie Spam like there is no tomorrow lol

Dude....

You do know what you have done is like 4000 times illegal?

the reason some of us have the Codex so far is because we have friends of friends and have been able to get a look, or are lucky enough to be said friends and have a copy early.

If you want a copy, buy one when it comes out

not that I know of-but a few stores did get the preview copy of the codex.
that is where most people are going to look at it.

Gwar! wrote:Dude....

You do know what you have done is like 4000 times illegal?

the reason some of us have the Codex so far is because we have friends of friends and have been able to get a look, or are lucky enough to be said friends and have a copy early.

If you want a copy, buy one when it comes out

HA!!! Good one...no seriously though chill man, he hasn't done anything wrong. Psst...your hairy butthole.
And on another note, why cant we just get Dan Abnett to write the IG book, doubt anyone will call it arbitrary after that.

Dan Abnett would make vet squads that can take down a CSM squad in assault with no losses (Traitor General)

At least the army would be cheap to buy since the pionts would have to be insane.

Recklessfable wrote:Dan Abnett would make vet squads that can take down a CSM squad in assault with no losses (Traitor General)

At least the army would be cheap to buy since the pionts would have to be insane.

But Mkvenner knows freakin' Kung-FU!!!!

Got a look at a preview of the book. one thing I noticed is for the cmd squads, it says something like.. the commander and/or comissar may exchange their CCW and/or pistol for a boltgun, power weapon, plasma pistol or power fist. So, does the and/or mean they could actually take, say, 2 plasma pistols? or 2 power fists?

@Necros
i'd say no, but... if it looks like it can be exploited, some will try.

I don't see anything stopping you from taking 2 plasma pistols, or 2 whatevers, but why would you want to? The only time that would be useful is with 2 powerfists, and even that wouldn't be good.

It is legal, just strange that you'd want to twin link your plasma pistols (2 of same weapon=twin link). Although an un-targetable commissar with 2 power fists would be quite interesting, execute people with a well placed smack.

Necros wrote:Got a look at a preview of the book. one thing I noticed is for the cmd squads, it says something like.. the commander and/or comissar may exchange their CCW and/or pistol for a boltgun, power weapon, plasma pistol or power fist. So, does the and/or mean they could actually take, say, 2 plasma pistols? or 2 power fists?

Yup you can. I still dont get why people get so amazed over this. You could do it with the old Armoury System, and you can do it in the Marine Codex too.

Da Blak Gobbo wrote:It is legal, just strange that you'd want to twin link your plasma pistols (2 of same weapon=twin link). Although an un-targetable commissar with 2 power fists would be quite interesting, execute people with a well placed smack.

WRONG!!!!! Unless it specifically states they become twin linked, they do not.

Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote:Solar Macharius is back.
So is Colonel Schaeffer.

No. They're not.

Schaeffer (and Gaunt) are not present in this book. Macharius isn't back.

When the rule for Weaken Resolve says that the effect lasts until the end of the turn, does that mean until the beginning of the users next turn? If so, it could potentially neutralize Lash and such. If it only lasts until the end of the users current turn, it is only effective for forcing failed moral tests via 25% casualties. Does anyone have anything to compare the wording of the rule to so that we can assume that it works one way or the other before a FAQ is released. It seems like kind of a big deal.

MikeK wrote:When the rule for Weaken Resolve says that the effect lasts until the end of the turn, does that mean until the beginning of the users next turn? If so, it could potentially neutralize Lash and such. If it only lasts until the end of the users current turn, it is only effective for forcing failed moral tests via 25% casualties. Does anyone have anything to compare the wording of the rule to so that we can assume that it works one way or the other before a FAQ is released. It seems like kind of a big deal.

No its not an issue. Try reading the rulebook.

Page 9 makes it pretty clear

"Whenever a rule uses the word 'turn', both in this rule book and in the Codexes, it means 'player turn', otherwise it will clearly state 'game turn'."

So it lasts until the end of your turn.

Nice job. That is too bad. No Lash shutdown after all.

Kungfuhustler wrote:

ikew wrote:Can someone tell me/PM me the Codex (English or Spanish, preferrably English) or tell me where I can go for it?

(It has hit the web, right?)

I have not heard that you can go to 4chan /rs /tg and find a pdf file. As soon I hear that it is on 4chan I won't post anything about it, though. I speak for many when I say that you should give GW the money that they deserve for the excellent codex writing they do, as it is without flaw.

lol...no. You should buy a copy, but its not because its well written. It has the rules in it, but the writing is pretty darn bad.

Another thing I thought of.. so, you can get bodyguards for your company commander and if he takes a wound they can use their look Out Sir rule to have them take the wound instead. But, if you also have a medic, does that mean those bodyguards get a feel no pain save?

Necros wrote:Another thing I thought of.. so, you can get bodyguards for your company commander and if he takes a wound they can use their look Out Sir rule to have them take the wound instead. But, if you also have a medic, does that mean those bodyguards get a feel no pain save?

That is my understanding. The medic gives every model in the command squad FNP.

Am I missing some nuance of the Enginseer in the new codex? He doesn't appear to be an independent character. Therefore he cannot join any other units. So your options are to run him around on his own, run him around with his pricey servitor unit, or refuse to use him at all because he's just too costly.

Since he's not an independent character, he appears to be worth only 1 KP whether or not he has his servitors.

So I ask again, am I missing some detail. Was there some mention of him being an IC that I missed?

I got a question for you mates out there - can SoB get inside a chimera?

Rules do not state otherwise.. in the WH dex.. heheheh...



not like its going to be super effective.. but gives me some reason to take my sob thats collecting dust..

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote:Solar Macharius is back.
So is Colonel Schaeffer.

No. They're not.

Schaeffer (and Gaunt) are not present in this book. Macharius isn't back.

Oh my bad.

I thought Schaeffer would be back. Apparently not. I didn't get a full look at the Special Character section.

And I was looking through that section and flipped past a page that had a name which ended with 'ius,' so I assumed it was Macharius.

I'll edit that.

Gwar! wrote:I'm still liking the idea of Bassie Spam like there is no tomorrow lol

I like it too, because when I clear half of the field, you're finished!

All thanks to your new minimum range

Harker gives his unit stealth (ordinarily a 30 point upgrade) plus infiltrate (which they normally can't have at all) and move through cover (ditto) along with a heavy bolter (ten points) that can move and fire. If you don't care about defensive grenades or the unit's full range of options the guy effectively costs only 15 points. Get some grenade launchers and you have three S5 36" shots and three S6 24" shots protected by a 3+ cover save, and you can get a second heavy bolter if you don't mind standing still to fire it. In comparison Lukas Bastonne costs more for a power sword, hotshot laspistol, and leadership.

Oh, and "The ranks of Whiteshield companies swelled as eager youths flocked to sign up" is a rather odd line. Cadian Whiteshield companies are formed from the universal conscription of the Cadian populace as they reach military age. It wouldn't be possible to increase their recruitment without shipping volunteers in from other planets.

The codex is on 4chan /rs/ search for Imperial Guard in case you cant find it when searching codex,

I got the Imperial guardb, or c i dont recall.

Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote:

Gwar! wrote:I'm still liking the idea of Bassie Spam like there is no tomorrow lol

I like it too, because when I clear half of the field, you're finished!

All thanks to your new minimum range

All indirect ordinance can fire directly and ignore the minimum range unless stated otherwise.

Raxmei wrote:Oh, and "The ranks of Whiteshield companies swelled as eager youths flocked to sign up" is a rather odd line. Cadian Whiteshield companies are formed from the universal conscription of the Cadian populace as they reach military age. It wouldn't be possible to increase their recruitment without shipping volunteers in from other planets.

I'm pretty sure the whiteshield term was expanded to apply to all regiments, not just be a cadian thing.

ph34r wrote:

Raxmei wrote:Oh, and "The ranks of Whiteshield companies swelled as eager youths flocked to sign up" is a rather odd line. Cadian Whiteshield companies are formed from the universal conscription of the Cadian populace as they reach military age. It wouldn't be possible to increase their recruitment without shipping volunteers in from other planets.

I'm pretty sure the whiteshield term was expanded to apply to all regiments, not just be a cadian thing.

It should have, cadia fell to Abbadon!

Raxmei wrote:Oh, and "The ranks of Whiteshield companies swelled as eager youths flocked to sign up" is a rather odd line. Cadian Whiteshield companies are formed from the universal conscription of the Cadian populace as they reach military age. It wouldn't be possible to increase their recruitment without shipping volunteers in from other planets.

You've been corrected, but I'm going to swoop in to point out that the "Whiteshield" is actually a Rogue Trader-era term that referred to the way you were supposed to paint squad markings on your RT plastic Imperial Army miniatures. This means that Whiteshields have been around longer than the Cadian Shock Troopers. But perhaps not longer than Cadia itself, I seem to recall it getting a mention in some really old fluff. :-)

Kungfuhuslter wrote:It should have, cadia fell to Abbadon!

When did that happen? I've been away from the game for a while, but I thought the 13th Black Crusade had never been "officially" concluded in the fluff. As I remember, the 2003 Summer campaign ended with Cadia only partially occupied by Chaos, and with other parts of the Black Crusade moving past Cadia to strike deeper into Imperial Space.

I thought at the end of the 13th black crusade, chaos won but only to a minor degree, turning the cadian gate into a constant warzone and decimating many of the planets in the system, but cadia remained in imperial control.

Cadia couldn't fall anyway, otherwise GW would look pretty stupid with all those Cadian kits lined up for release after EoT

I searched the thread but cant find this answer. Looking at the codex, are you forced to use squadrons for leman russes? Does that mean if i take 1 Russ, it still counts for squadron rules and thus is dead on an immobilized?

wait nm i just reread the squadron rules, it covers single vehicle units.

JB wrote:

Wehrkind wrote:I am thinking the Vendettas will be fun in a squad of 2, maybe with something inside, waiting in reserves. With your +1 to reserve rolls they sally in on a short board edge 6", pop some rear/side armor for so long as they live, and if your opponant allows them to make it to turn 5, they zip over and contest something awkward to reach. With an infantry unit inside to score, and only moving 6", you can even ninja an objective while not worrying if the vehicle gets smoked.

I am looking forward to seeing other IG players figure out where to put the Vendettas when they only move 6" from the table edge. Does that even allow the model's base onto the table? I foresee a lot of guys putting a marker on the table to show the forward edge of the Vendetta while their expensive and pretty model remains somewhere safe.

Landraiders are only ~6.5 inches long. I suspect the valk's base will fit just fine, though I agree that I would be a little leery putting them too close to a high traffic edge Maybe attaching the base to a steel disk, or gluing some bullets to the base as decoration would be in order

Dave47 wrote:

Kungfuhuslter wrote:It should have, cadia fell to Abbadon!

When did that happen? I've been away from the game for a while, but I thought the 13th Black Crusade had never been "officially" concluded in the fluff. As I remember, the 2003 Summer campaign ended with Cadia only partially occupied by Chaos, and with other parts of the Black Crusade moving past Cadia to strike deeper into Imperial Space.

WD287, p.60-69 covered the final results of the Eye of Terror Campaign. Cadia did not fall but only 39.8% of it was still held by forces of the Imperium. Much of the planetary system was even worse and two planets were completely destroyed.
But since GW ended the campaign, I have not seen any references made to any of the campaigns outcomes so as far as I know, the Cadian Gate is standing like a rock, blocking the predations of much of the traitor legions. My guess is that we'll see Armageddon blow up again before Abbadon gets another try. The despoiler will no doubt wait for a better CSM codex. 5e and the new IG codex makes it unhealthy for a 14th crusade.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Orlanth wrote:Three demo charges for 95pts, plus some 'gun drone' guardsmen to get in ther way afterwards.
What do you think a tripled up S8 Ap2 pie plate is going to do to nob bikers? Tie up the nobz (or more honestly watch the sacrifice squad get annihilated then move up the demo charge guys and voila no more 700pt unit.

Demo charges in multiples are respectable, but only if they can actually hit. You have to contend with a weapon that has a low range, against a unit that can easily avoid you thanks to its speed. And even if you hit, they still have a permanent 4+ cover save, taking the sting out of your squad quite handily. Nevermind the fact that the demo charges are not powerful enough to instant kill the nobz, so the average scenario becomes that half the orks under the template each lose a wound, shrug and continue on their way.

Add in the price of the sacrificial squad, and you'd be better off spending all those points on heavy bolters and a prayer.

I agree with some of your points and really do not see a place for demo charges in my mech veteran list. But I do not understand your contention that demo charges (S8, AP2) are not powerful enough to get Instant Death on biker Nobz. They're still T4(5) aren't they? So demo charges should get Instant Death and negate FNP but the Nobz would get their 4+ cover save.

I can still see some IG players finding a use for SWS and/or vets with demolition charges though the cost/benefits seems to be more negative now that they lose the ability to Deep Strike (drop troops) next to suitable targets. Pairing a SWS with a Valkyrie just seems to be asking for disaster to strike via a bad scatter roll.

Chinnfrequent wrote:

Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote:

Gwar! wrote:I'm still liking the idea of Bassie Spam like there is no tomorrow lol

I like it too, because when I clear half of the field, you're finished!

All thanks to your new minimum range

All indirect ordinance can fire directly and ignore the minimum range unless stated otherwise.

Normally, yes, but one or two of the Barrage capable vehicles in the new codex actually say that they cannot direct fire. Griffon and one other, IIRC.

don_mondo wrote:Normally, yes, but one or two of the Barrage capable vehicles in the new codex actually say that they cannot direct fire. Griffon and one other, IIRC.

The Griffon, Collosus and Deathstrike Missile cannot fire Directly, everything else can.

don_mondo wrote:

Chinnfrequent wrote:

Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote:

Gwar! wrote:I'm still liking the idea of Bassie Spam like there is no tomorrow lol

I like it too, because when I clear half of the field, you're finished!

All thanks to your new minimum range

All indirect ordinance can fire directly and ignore the minimum range unless stated otherwise.

Normally, yes, but one or two of the Barrage capable vehicles in the new codex actually say that they cannot direct fire. Griffon and one other, IIRC.

Those are the "unless stated otherwise" and none of them are the basilisk.

Master or ordnance from inside a chimera? possible to use bombardment?

schrag wrote:Master or ordnance from inside a chimera? possible to use bombardment?

Does the chimera have a fire point?

I was just thinking..... are commissars a bad idea? Like, if you need your company or platoon commander to issue orders, but he messes up and the commissar blows his face off, I guess that means no more orders will be coming?

Or are commissars better for your regular squads, and not in the command squads? what's the real use of a commssar anyway? Or commissar lord? are they just really there to provide better leadership sometimes but also good for close combat? Will squads always use a commissar's leadership if they have one? or only if he kills the sergeant? At 35 pts (I think?) it seems kinda pricey for regular squads, but might not be bad for command squads, but then it seems risky to add to command squads if 1 failed leadership test could mean no more orders anymore

Gwar! wrote:

schrag wrote:Master or ordnance from inside a chimera? possible to use bombardment?

Does the chimera have a fire point?

Yep. Pg. 39, "Five models can fire from the Chimera's top hatch."

However, it's not as useful as you might think. Master of ordnance's artillery bombardment rules state, "This attack cannot be made if the Master of Ordnance moved in the preceding Movement phase."

Necros wrote:I was just thinking..... are commissars a bad idea? Like, if you need your company or platoon commander to issue orders, but he messes up and the commissar blows his face off, I guess that means no more orders will be coming?

Or are commissars better for your regular squads, and not in the command squads? what's the real use of a commssar anyway? Or commissar lord? are they just really there to provide better leadership sometimes but also good for close combat? Will squads always use a commissar's leadership if they have one? or only if he kills the sergeant? At 35 pts (I think?) it seems kinda pricey for regular squads, but might not be bad for command squads, but then it seems risky to add to command squads if 1 failed leadership test could mean no more orders anymore

Firstly, its the Unit receiving the order who takes the test, not the Officer issuing it (unless its the officers unit).

Secondly, Commissars only do their thing on a failed Morale Check, not any leadership test. Moral Tests area TYPE of Ld test, but a very specific type. So he wont blow off someone head for misunderstanding orders. And also, when rolling your LD test for orders, rolling a double 1 means a second unit gets a free order without needing to test, while Double 6 means no more orders that turn.

stonefox wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

schrag wrote:Master or ordnance from inside a chimera? possible to use bombardment?

Does the chimera have a fire point?

Yep. Pg. 39, "Five models can fire from the Chimera's top hatch."

However, it's not as useful as you might think. Master of ordnance's artillery bombardment rules state, "This attack cannot be made if the Master of Ordnance moved in the preceding Movement phase."

It's the exact same rule as the Chapter Masters orbital Bombardment, except 9001 times crappier

Gwar! wrote:

Necros wrote:I was just thinking..... are commissars a bad idea? Like, if you need your company or platoon commander to issue orders, but he messes up and the commissar blows his face off, I guess that means no more orders will be coming?

Or are commissars better for your regular squads, and not in the command squads? what's the real use of a commssar anyway? Or commissar lord? are they just really there to provide better leadership sometimes but also good for close combat? Will squads always use a commissar's leadership if they have one? or only if he kills the sergeant? At 35 pts (I think?) it seems kinda pricey for regular squads, but might not be bad for command squads, but then it seems risky to add to command squads if 1 failed leadership test could mean no more orders anymore

Firstly, its the Unit receiving the order who takes the test, not the Officer issuing it (unless its the officers unit).

Secondly, Commissars only do their thing on a failed Morale Check, not any leadership test. Moral Tests area TYPE of Ld test, but a very specific type. So he wont blow off someone head for misunderstanding orders. And also, when rolling your LD test for orders, rolling a double 1 means a second unit gets a free order without needing to test, while Double 6 means no more orders that turn.

stonefox wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

schrag wrote:Master or ordnance from inside a chimera? possible to use bombardment?

Does the chimera have a fire point?

Yep. Pg. 39, "Five models can fire from the Chimera's top hatch."

However, it's not as useful as you might think. Master of ordnance's artillery bombardment rules state, "This attack cannot be made if the Master of Ordnance moved in the preceding Movement phase."

It's the exact same rule as the Chapter Masters orbital Bombardment, except 9001 times crappier

Crappier? Less accurate, but not single use. Doesn't seem that crappy.

Much less accurate, since they always scatter. Not really useful except against a hoard i suppose, and even then its not reliable.

The only "dud" unit I can seem to find in this book are the penal legion troops, since you have to randomly determine their skills, which means you cant rely on them to fill out a specific roll. I thought GW had learned from the Chaos Codex, Random Skills is not useful!

Yeah, I wish I could drop the bomb every turn.

Gwar! wrote:
The only "dud" unit I can seem to find in this book are the penal legion troops, since you have to randomly determine their skills, which means you cant rely on them to fill out a specific roll. I thought GW had learned from the Chaos Codex, Random Skills is not useful!

However they at least get to roll for their "power" before deployment, so you know what their role is going to be during deployment.

Necros wrote:I was just thinking..... are commissars a bad idea? Like, if you need your company or platoon commander to issue orders, but he messes up and the commissar blows his face off, I guess that means no more orders will be coming?

Or are commissars better for your regular squads, and not in the command squads? what's the real use of a commssar anyway? Or commissar lord? are they just really there to provide better leadership sometimes but also good for close combat? Will squads always use a commissar's leadership if they have one? or only if he kills the sergeant? At 35 pts (I think?) it seems kinda pricey for regular squads, but might not be bad for command squads, but then it seems risky to add to command squads if 1 failed leadership test could mean no more orders anymore

Company command squads can not take a commissar.

Other folks have already covered all of the other points.

Oh snap, the background for Harker is just so over the top.

So, any verdicts on which Russ variant to take?

Sounds like the optimum TANKS (as in, NOT Vendettas) are the bland Russ, the Griffon, and the Colossus. Any other dissenting opinions?

Scottywan82 wrote:So, any verdicts on which Russ variant to take?

Sounds like the optimum TANKS (as in, NOT Vendettas) are the bland Russ, the Griffon, and the Colossus. Any other dissenting opinions?

The Vanquisher is by far the optimum Anti Tank Tank, especially in a squad of 3. 72" with armour Penetration of 8+2D6 no matter the range? yes please.

Gwar! wrote:
The only "dud" unit I can seem to find in this book are the penal legion troops, since you have to randomly determine their skills, which means you cant rely on them to fill out a specific roll. I thought GW had learned from the Chaos Codex, Random Skills is not useful!

Well, they're an outflanking, stubborn, scoring unit, cost about as much as an infantry squad with guns, and their abilities (although random) are not that bad.

Are the going to make it into serious lists? Probably not.

But are they "duds"? I think that's a bit harsh.

JB wrote:Company command squads can not take a commissar.

One of the WTF moments of the new Codex . Made me scratch my head when I first heard this and I still can´t understand the point ( if there is one ) for this change. So long as Comissars have been around the whole point of their existence ( rule and fluffwise ) has been to maintain order by keeping the officers under surveillance. Executing the lower echelon officers ( sergeants and lieutenants ) leading squads and platoons won´t matter, if the colonel leading the WHOLE REGIMENT loses his nerve.

EDIT: Regarding the Penal troops. I concur that they are not a complete dud ( BoxAnt pretty much covered the points ). Outflanking+Stubborn can be used to tie up some rear echelon enemy support units. Also just finished converting and painting my "Psychopath/Knifefighter" squad . Now all I have to do is give each of the convicted poor bastards a name. "Undertaker" ( armed with a shovel ), "Elvis" ( sunglasses ), "Pigkiller" ( big Catachan blade ) and so on .

Gwar! wrote:

Scottywan82 wrote:So, any verdicts on which Russ variant to take?

Sounds like the optimum TANKS (as in, NOT Vendettas) are the bland Russ, the Griffon, and the Colossus. Any other dissenting opinions?

The Vanquisher is by far the optimum Anti Tank Tank, especially in a squad of 3. 72" with armour Penetration of 8+2D6 no matter the range? yes please.

Hmm... I'm not so sure. That's pretty expensive for a one-use squad, and they'll only hit 1-2 times per turn when all three are out on the board. If you hit, bam, that's devastating, but wouldn't a bunch of melta-vets in a chimera be a better deal? At least they'd be scoring.

I think the lumbering rule now makes the demolisher a more attractive option than ever before. Its the cheapest of the upgraded Hull variants and the AP 2 is always something you can use more of. Being able to move and fire makes its range less of a detriment.