Remember dead naked children with wings sown on and their brains replaced by a small computer is ok.........Live psychic naked children is not. OK, I think I got it.

Amazing what some people get a hissy fit about in the context of a miniatures game. *shakes head*

WARNING OFFENSIVE MINIS




But seriously.

Is there going to be any reason to take Conscripts?! for the savings on ONE point, you have to loose 1 BS, 1 WS, and 3 LD... seems like a bad deal imho.

1 point might not seem like a lot, but if it was 2 points, you could get nearly twice as many bodies as guardsmen, and that could be a bit too strong.

Normal Guardsmen should have been 4 points and Conscripts should have been 3 points.

But really, there's no real use for Conscripts unless you take Chenkov.

Actually, imagine both Creed and Chenkov together, using 'For Cadia!' on the conscripts and all that jazz.

That would be fun.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Normal Guardsmen should have been 4 points and Conscripts should have been 3 points.

But really, there's no real use for Conscripts unless you take Chenkov.

Actually, imagine both Creed and Chenkov together, using 'For Cadia!' on the conscripts and all that jazz.

That would be fun.

True, but I hope that conscripts will be useful w/out spending 100+ points in overhead

BoxANT wrote:Is there going to be any reason to take Conscripts?! for the savings on ONE point, you have to loose 1 BS, 1 WS, and 3 LD... seems like a bad deal imho.

Kujo wrote:Are we pretty sure about Chenkov's next wave special rule? As I understand it, he can remove the conscripts at any time and then walk them back on the board at full strength.

Does that mean that you could string a 50-man conscript unit in front of your gunline, have them eat a nob biker unit's assault, then after pile-in moves just remove them so your whole army can shoot the clumped-up bikes?

EDIT: bad example. I doubt conscipts would stay for consolidation at all lol. The question is if I can remove them even when in combat with an enemy unit so that I can shoot it. (Also, if that enemy unit is within 12" of my board edge, could my respawned conscipts charge it again after my shooting and repeat the whole process?

Seems like a very good deal, especially since you can potentially stop bikers/bloodcrushers from multicharging with a big conscript squad. This still depends on if you can remove them in combat but its still decent without it.

3 questions about this
1. Can we remove/walk on while engaged in CC?
2. Can we walk on when the unit has died (running from CC)?
3. Can we attach a commissar directly to the squad, as in a squad option, so it comes back with them? (How would an IC work with that since he is part of the unit? sounds like FAQ question)

JohnHwangDD wrote:
True, but NOT earning points back very often loses you the game, and I'm not sure I can envision any scenario in which 2 or 3 pie plates from the sky don't earn back 30 or 80 pts, scatter and all. Given that Guard don't move much anyways, standing still isn't a big deal.

Lol, indeed. Point taken. Still, there's obviously a difference between SIGAFH and the officer himself. When I look at the many new possibilities, gunline is just one of several archtypes of list. The future Guard can be a very mobile if not outright speedy force.

Inq + Mystics will kill whole units if they're positioned properly. I currently field Inq/Mystic in LR within 12" of 3 Demolishers (star pattern). My S10 AP2 Demolisher plates have wiped multiple whole units from the board in a single shot.

I did the exact same thing (well, within range of two Demolishers but hey) and the combo didn't kill anything. 4d6 just doesn't cut it.

sourclams wrote:

This:

The INQ + Mystics is a gimmick. People make it sound as if he would kill whole units all the time but that isn't the case due to its limited range.

doesn't make sense. Not really because it's wrong, but because if protecting your gunline is important to you, then you WILL take this unit. The average range of effectiveness for Inq+Mystics is 14 inches, which is precisely what you need to protect yourself from deep striking [multi-] meltas.

Perhaps. It has never worked for me, not against SM, not against Daemons. In slightly bigger games, it simply cannot protect every part of the line, and it's 2 KP's, something I'm trying to avoid at all cost, at least in my first games with the new codex.

Gestalt wrote:
3 questions about this
1. Can we remove/walk on while engaged in CC?
2. Can we walk on when the unit has died (running from CC)?
3. Can we attach a commissar directly to the squad, as in a squad option, so it comes back with them? (How would an IC work with that since he is part of the unit? sounds like FAQ question)

1. No
2. No
3. No

Chenkov's ability happens at the start of your turn, and you need to have at least one model of the squad alive to use it. You can't remove 0 models from the table. It's also not an Order, but happens automatically.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Gestalt wrote:
3 questions about this
1. Can we remove/walk on while engaged in CC?
2. Can we walk on when the unit has died (running from CC)?
3. Can we attach a commissar directly to the squad, as in a squad option, so it comes back with them? (How would an IC work with that since he is part of the unit? sounds like FAQ question)

1. No
2. No
3. No

Chenkov's ability happens at the start of your turn, and you need to have at least one model of the squad alive to use it. You can't remove 0 models from the table. It's also not an Order, but happens automatically.

Interesting. That restricts how aggressively you can play the conscripts. Conscripts+HtH= dead conscripts ( and loss of second wave ). So the trick is to keep them out of HtH and with at least one survivor. Not necessarily the easiest thing to do.

Clarification. Is Chenkovs ability cumulative? Can you remove multiple conscript squads during the same turn? Does your opponent get a Kill Point for the squad you remove?

..nevermind..

Sorry. Misread the post.

I'm going to use the concript rules as cultists in a Chaos army, the bad stats fit just fine.

I miss the option to field Sentinels with CC weapons....

Are Vendetta squadrons 0-1???

I've seen mixed info.

Has anyone else noticed that the Earthshaker cannon on a Basilisk is barrage? Meaning that if you take three of them you'll be using the barrage rules with large blast templates? If you roll a hit when scattering you can seriously wipe out anything except terminators, and large groups of them. Still not sure if the investment would be worth it given their minimum range though. A group of three griffons might be worth while though, only a bit over 200 points for 3 of them. Not the insta-death that the Basilisk is but still...

JohnHwangDD wrote:Why not? Because it'd be *actual* grimdark instead of ersatz grimdark?

The Imperium of the 41st Millennium is supposed to be a place, in which the end *always* justifies the means. There is no limit to the brutality that the Imperium would go to, and I think that this kind of modeling piece is a perfect way to show it.

Ah but as gamers looking for fun we're usually not looking to be reminded of the true cruelty of war. That's why I won't be modeling up 13 year Angolan boys as conscripts or building my Imperial Concentration Camp diarama.

Besides why would they be naked?

that being said I think creepy kids (clothed) would be awesome. Reaper and Westwind make kids, I think Mordheim might have them too. Westwind's Victorian horror kids are probably your best bet.

vonjankmon wrote:Has anyone else noticed that the Earthshaker cannon on a Basilisk is barrage?

This is nothing new. As soon as you bought the Indirect Fire option, it became Barrage. Now, it just comes standard.

And in Squadrons.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Gestalt wrote:
3 questions about this
1. Can we remove/walk on while engaged in CC?
2. Can we walk on when the unit has died (running from CC)?
3. Can we attach a commissar directly to the squad, as in a squad option, so it comes back with them? (How would an IC work with that since he is part of the unit? sounds like FAQ question)

1. No
2. No
3. No

Chenkov's ability happens at the start of your turn, and you need to have at least one model of the squad alive to use it. You can't remove 0 models from the table. It's also not an Order, but happens automatically.

Well 2 was expected, but having neither 1 or 3 really makes them pointless for anything besides preventing multicharges, and 20 of them will do for that. Not much point in spending 75 points to have a squad come back when for 80 you can have a whole second squad.

Well the important part about the Earthshaker is that you can now take them in squadrons. And thus make use of the barrage rules for multiple barrages in a unit.

What are the stats of penal troops? 'Cause if they're BS 4, then they'd be better than vets!

-A.

Platuan4th wrote:

Biophysic wrote:Well, in 5th edition, it's not a rule anyway, your whole army deploys at once, so I wouldn't be surprised if deployment as a unit or deployment as a whole choice wasn't even mentioned.

Go ahead and read the Deployment rules for Dawn of War.

I'll wait.

I'm not sure what Dawn of War deployment has to do with anything. It specifically mentions units deploying (not choices), and you still deploy all the units being deployed together. Okay, I see where I was unclear/inaccurate. My intention with the statement from my previous post was to say that each side deploys all of its forces together, not alternating as in previous editions. Many other armies have ways of deploying multiple units from a single choice (combat squad, dedicated transports), and to my knowledge, no rules address any exceptions to "choice" vs. "unit" in deployment, so I'd be mildly surprised to see Guard get an exception.

My apologies if I made you wait too long.

augfubuoy wrote:What are the stats of penal troops? 'Cause if they're BS 4, then they'd be better than vets!

-A.

According to Warseer, penal troops have almost the same stats as ordinary infantry. The only difference is the LD which is 8 for Penal Legion but this makes no difference due to the LD 8 sergeant that leads every ordinary squad.

IMO, Penal Troops might be useful for flanking. They also appeal to folks that want more variety in their army. But their inability to use SW or HW make them a much less desirable option than veterans. The 33% chance to get Assault 2 lasguns as well as their inherent Scout, and Stubborn does not outweigh their disadvantages. Reportedly the Custodian of the squad also is limited to a laspistol so you only have nine lasguns. I prefer ordinary squads and/or veteran squads where the sergeant adds his lasgun or bolter to the squad's firepower.

When Penal Squads were first mentioned, they were only 50 points, and sounded like they'd be a great value. But IIRC their points now is said to be around 80?

They have stubborn, and have a chance to get some interesting rules, but i can't see them ever making it into competitive lists :( However, for a fun flavor unit, they're not that bad I am going to convert up a couple squads and either use them as Penal, Conscripts or normal infantry.

You don't think flankers with rending or furious charge are worth 8 points? Even if they can also scout with their dedicated transports?

I dont think they will do anything besides die. IF you roll furious charge AND IF you get the charge you might strike simultaneously and kill a couple models. If you roll rending you will lose most of the models before they swing anyway. If you roll gunslingers they shoot just like a normal guard squad rapid firing, but after can charge and still have I3 S3.
Fun, yes. Useful, not so much. I think I would rather have ogryns than them though.

Still think it might be fun to flank my friend's carnifex with 18 rending attacks that only cost 80 points.

Guys, per Iorke's "request", if you have questions / comments to me WRT my possible modeling of a Psyker Choir, please PM me directly. Thanks.
____

Also, Penal Legion sounds interesting. I might dig up some Necromunda gangers for that.

so has anyone gotten their hands on a book yet?

I looked into it at the local GW.

First thing I noticed was that the army list are now structured as they were before the Marine book.
HQ - Elites - Troops - Fast Attack - Heavy support.
In the Marine books troops and elites swapped places, but appearantly this was too confusing to some players

Unit entries and their gear are still all over the place, just as in any of the last books.

The color section features more diverse Guardsmen that I would've thought the 'Eavy Metal team was still capable off, since most of the new books just featured out-of-the-box regiments.

Commisar Lords and Psykers are ICs, so they'll probably be boned once they reach CC with another unit.

Kujo wrote:You don't think flankers with rending or furious charge are worth 8 points? Even if they can also scout with their dedicated transports?

I could see rending coming in handy, but the fact that you only get it 1/3 times :(

Furious Charge + Fleet, might be nice. Assault2 lasguns, hmmm would rather have vets.


I think they'll be a fun unit, and awesome to model, but again, not too certain on their competitiveness.

I'll be taking two squads just so I can use the Forgeworld Renegade models I have. File off or fill in a few Chaos arrows and they're perfect.

EDIT: Original post removed by myself for being rightly hostile.

EDIT: Removed rude response to unnecessarily hostile post above.

What the heck was that???

The final gasps (hopefully) of the Great Naked Psyker Children Scandal of 2009.

Im gone for a couple hours and I miss all the happens-on.

sometimes things on Dakka happen in the blink of an eye!

Hey Rama, a couple questions: did you see the cost of the Penal Troops? Do they count as troops or Elites? Did you see the "Snacks" rule for Ratlings? Are the Cadian Snipers any good? Should we still just take Ratlings?

Thanks,

-A.

both ratlings and snipers lack the ability to create templates. I'm not a fan.

ratlings and snipers have a chance of pinning IF whatever they're shooting at fails its armor and IF that same unit fails a leadership test. Now that most things that aren't IG are either high leadership, good saves, or both, dedicated sniper squads just dont appeal to me. Id rather have melta/plasma, an autocannon, or a demo charge.

Just a random idea, but in the spirit of uselessness, my hate for ratlings (concept and actual models), the psyker discussion and as a complementatry unit to the stupendously inefficient voxes:

Would a squad of mischevious youngsters with slingshots and peashooters be a good way to represent snipers?

It would give the old grumpy men on the forum an excuse to better empathise with their own commander equivalents too.

Are Vendetta squadrons 0-1???

from middle's reporting from the actual Codex:

"Valkrie. 1-3. 100 bang on. transport 12. No Ogryns ( They don't like the dark and i'm guessing they don't like flying either. ). MLAser. 2 Hellstrikes ( S8 Ap3 Ordnance. NO blast. One use only ). Searchlight. Extra armour. DeepStrike. Scout. MLaser can be a lascannon for 15. Swap both Hellstrikes for 2 multiple missile pods 30pts ( S4 Ap6 Heavy 1 Large blast ). +Pair of "sponson" HB's 10.

( I can not remember who asked but there are NO Vendetta parts in the Valkrie box )


Vendetta. 1-3. 130. Transport 12. No Ogryns. 3 TL Lascannon. Searchlight. Extra armour. Deepstrike. Scout. Can swap 2 TL Lascannons for 2 Hellfury missiles EDIT: for free ( S4 Ap5 large blast. ). +Pair of "sponson" HB's 10. "

it looks as if the Valkyrie and the Vendetta are both 1-3

Yeah, but is the squadron of 1-3 a 0-1 choice?

migsula wrote:Yeah, but is the squadron of 1-3 a 0-1 choice?

I believe he meant that Vendetta squadrons are not a restricted choice, you can take from 0-3 of them as normal.

So what's the significance of the Hellstrike missiles being ordinance, particularly with them not having a blast?

Basically, theyre Hunter Killer Missiles, statwise...

Ivan wrote:So what's the significance of the Hellstrike missiles being ordinance, particularly with them not having a blast?

Basically, theyre Hunter Killer Missiles, statwise...

Pages 58 and 60 in the BGB explain the significance of Ordnance. Essentially, if you fire an ordnance weapon you can't fire anything else that turn and you also get to roll two dice for armor penetration, counting the higher roll. It's not a bad weapon, but the Vendetta is so much better at cracking tanks.

Ivan wrote:So what's the significance of the Hellstrike missiles being ordinance, particularly with them not having a blast?

Basically, theyre Hunter Killer Missiles, statwise...

reroll AV pen?

I thought they were blast?

Just a question about the picture that BoxANT posted. He didn't know, so maybe someone here will:

Does anyone know what the tiles being used in this pic are from? They're not Space Hulk tiles, so I'm wondering where they originated?

Thanks!

BoxANT wrote:

BoxANT wrote:

Ivan wrote:So what's the significance of the Hellstrike missiles being ordinance, particularly with them not having a blast?

Basically, theyre Hunter Killer Missiles, statwise...

reroll AV pen?

I thought they were blast?

You're thinking of the Hellfury missles that are an option for the Vendetta. To recap:

Hellstrike = Valkyrie default weapon x2, S8 Ap3 Ordnance. No blast. One use only. Can upgrade them for 30 points to multi-missle pods which are S4 Ap6 Heavy 1 Large blast

Hellfury = Vendetta free upgrade in place of 2 TL LC, S4 Ap5 large blast 72” range. Ignores cover saves. One use only

No one really talks about either Hellstrike or Hellfury because they appear to be less desirable then the alternatives, except that a default stripped down Valkryie is appealing pointswise.

@H.
Well, I can tell you that they're not from Star Wars. There's a lot of blood on one. Hey, maybe it's from those guys who make thos industrial towers! I forgot their name though....

augfubuoy wrote:Hey Rama, a couple questions: did you see the cost of the Penal Troops? Do they count as troops or Elites? Did you see the "Snacks" rule for Ratlings? Are the Cadian Snipers any good? Should we still just take Ratlings?

Thanks,

-A.

- I didn't catch the point cost of Penal Legions.
- They are troops.
- I didn't notice any special rules for the halfling except something cover related.
- "Normal" Sniper squads are just a special weapon team (regular Guardsmen) with sniper rifles. No special rules whatsoever. Veterans can hve Snipers too and they get some camo options.
- I guess if you want to take ratlings rather then special weapon teams depends on what kind of army you want to play. Ratlings are elite btw., normal Snipers are part of a Platoon.

JB wrote:

BoxANT wrote:

Ivan wrote:So what's the significance of the Hellstrike missiles being ordinance, particularly with them not having a blast?

Basically, theyre Hunter Killer Missiles, statwise...

reroll AV pen?

I thought they were blast?

You're thinking of the Hellfury missles that are an option for the Vendetta. To recap:

Hellstrike = Valkyrie default weapon x2, S8 Ap3 Ordnance. No blast. One use only. Can upgrade them for 30 points to multi-missle pods which are S4 Ap6 Heavy 1 Large blast

Hellfury = Vendetta free upgrade in place of 2 TL LC, S4 Ap5 large blast 72” range. Ignores cover saves. One use only

No one really talks about either Hellstrike or Hellfury because they appear to be less desirable then the alternatives, except that a default stripped down Valkryie is appealing pointswise.

Thanks for the clarification JB

Sucks about the Hellstrike, they're just glorified HK :( 30pts for Missile Pods seems like a solid investment imo, dropping 2 S4 large blasts on a mob would cause a lot of wounds

And Hellfury... I really don't know what to say... perhaps if they didn't have the "One use only" I could see a reason, but why someone would give up two TL LC is beyond me.


The amount of pie we're going to have in the new codex is enough to give even the most bitter IG generals a manic grin.

Do any other armies have access to str4 large blasts, particularly in multiples?

A squadron of 3 Valkyries lobbing 6 blasts and 9 multi-laser shots that all resolve at the same time should have... interesting... results. A big ork mob should especially love that. I'm tempted to proxy it a few times and see how it performs.

Maybe hauling 3 squads of triple-melta special weapon squads, in case tank-busting is more needed than anti-infantry firepower.

BoxANT wrote:
Thanks for the clarification JB

Sucks about the Hellstrike, they're just glorified HK :( 30pts for Missile Pods seems like a solid investment imo, dropping 2 S4 large blasts on a mob would cause a lot of wounds

And Hellfury... I really don't know what to say... perhaps if they didn't have the "One use only" I could see a reason, but why someone would give up two TL LC is beyond me.


The amount of pie we're going to have in the new codex is enough to give even the most bitter IG generals a manic grin.

Thank Middle and all the other folks that have fed this rumor thread. I just consolidated their notes so that I can keep track. I'm looking forward to May 2nd so that we can all see into the dark, heretofore unrevealed corners of the Codex.

The pie plates are nice but I'm only using three: LRBT, LRBT, Psyker Squad. What the Codex offers me is a chance to finally play a mechanized company, which is what I wanted back in 2003 during the Eye of Terror.

I agree with you about the Hellstrike. The missle pods allow the Valkyrie to move 12" and fire all of its weapons (as long as you don't take the HB sponsons). Those pie plates seem to be worth the 30 points. I guess we'll figure it out for sure on the table top.

JB wrote:What the Codex offers me is a chance to finally play a mechanized company, which is what I wanted back in 2003 during the Eye of Terror.

And what about the current Codex stops you from fielding a mech Guard army?

Not enough Tanks, duh.

That's armoured company, not MechInf.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

JB wrote:What the Codex offers me is a chance to finally play a mechanized company, which is what I wanted back in 2003 during the Eye of Terror.

And what about the current Codex stops you from fielding a mech Guard army?

Two things about the current Codex made Mech Infantry less than desirable:

1. The point cost of Chimeras

2. The requirement to buy every single guard infantry unit a Chimera if you choose the Mechanized doctrine

The combination of these two conditions made the list less fun and less competitive than a pure infantry/tank gunline with some DS storm troopers. I did use lists occasionally with Chimeras for the HQs.

In 4e, I also found the restriction on carrying any unit other than the squad for which you bought the transport to be rather a problem.

5e and the new Codex, if it is in line with the rumors, make a mech company more playable

JB wrote:Two things about the current Codex made Mech Infantry less than desirable:
1. The point cost of Chimeras
2. The requirement to buy every single guard infantry unit a Chimera if you choose the Mechanized doctrine
The combination of these two conditions made the list less fun and less competitive

So you're really just complaining about current competitiveness of Mech Guard, not playability or options? OK, but the new Chimeras won't be so much better, as Guard will now be paying 15 pts for Extra Armor to make Mech work.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

JB wrote:Two things about the current Codex made Mech Infantry less than desirable:
1. The point cost of Chimeras
2. The requirement to buy every single guard infantry unit a Chimera if you choose the Mechanized doctrine
The combination of these two conditions made the list less fun and less competitive

So you're really just complaining about current competitiveness of Mech Guard, not playability or options? OK, but the new Chimeras won't be so much better, as Guard will now be paying 15 pts for Extra Armor to make Mech work.

Who needs EA anymore?

Before EA was a much bigger deal as it occurred on every penetrating hit and smoke launchers were extra, but now with smoke launchers on everything for free and pen' stunned only occurs on one result, why pay 15pts to mitigate something that occurs only 1/6 times?

And it's not as if the IG won't be able to field a ton of them. When your army has only 2-4 transports like many other armies, one not getting to move can be critical. When you are fielding 6-16 of them, it's not so much. Hell, I don't even take it for my CSM's anymore.

Extra Armor (which really isn't descriptive of the upgrade at all) isn't needed to make mech IG work, not at all.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

JB wrote:Two things about the current Codex made Mech Infantry less than desirable:
1. The point cost of Chimeras
2. The requirement to buy every single guard infantry unit a Chimera if you choose the Mechanized doctrine
The combination of these two conditions made the list less fun and less competitive

So you're really just complaining about current competitiveness of Mech Guard, not playability or options? OK, but the new Chimeras won't be so much better, as Guard will now be paying 15 pts for Extra Armor to make Mech work.

I'm really not complaining at all. Just answering HBMC's question. I guess I should point out that I was originally fielding a 1000 point list and then a 1500 point list. Giving every single infantry unit (HQ, PL HQ, HWS, SWS, ST, and regular squads) a Chimera at 100 points each (multilaser, hull HF/HB, smoke, pintle HS) was crippling.

As for EA, I don't plan to take it at all. With eight Chimeras and two LRBT, I don't expect a crew stunned result to unhinge my tactics enough to warrant the 15 point cost. It might be different if I had a single (rubber) hammer IG squad in a lone Chimera to try to seize/contest objectives.

Vaktathi wrote:Before EA was a much bigger deal as it occurred on every penetrating hit and smoke launchers were extra, but now with smoke launchers on everything for free and pen' stunned only occurs on one result, why pay 15pts to mitigate something that occurs only 1/6 times?

Wait, what? I thought smoke launchers were going to be 5pts a model. Did somone say they're free?

JohnHwangDD wrote:

JB wrote:Two things about the current Codex made Mech Infantry less than desirable:
1. The point cost of Chimeras
2. The requirement to buy every single guard infantry unit a Chimera if you choose the Mechanized doctrine
The combination of these two conditions made the list less fun and less competitive

So you're really just complaining about current competitiveness of Mech Guard, not playability or options? OK, but the new Chimeras won't be so much better, as Guard will now be paying 15 pts for Extra Armor to make Mech work.

Now that may be a little harsh DD. I think, if you actually READ the whole post, that you will find that JB is actually happy because the new Mech Guard will be better. It will be IMO.

Sigh... I actually thought they would make snipers decent in this 'dex. Guess not...

-A.

Raxmei wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Before EA was a much bigger deal as it occurred on every penetrating hit and smoke launchers were extra, but now with smoke launchers on everything for free and pen' stunned only occurs on one result, why pay 15pts to mitigate something that occurs only 1/6 times?

Wait, what? I thought smoke launchers were going to be 5pts a model. Did somone say they're free?

Middle posted that the Chimeras got their turret weapon, hull weapon, smoke, and a searchlight as part of their 55 point basic cost. So the only point upgrades that you have to mull over are extra armor, camouflage, dozer blade, pintle weapon, and the hunter killer missle. My decision was to stay with bare bones 55 point Chimeras. YMMV.

I never saw the need to take Chimeras on everything as much of a problem, as I didn't design a list and then add Chimeras to all the units that had to have them, I designed the list with the Chimeras already there. So if there was ever something that would not benefit from a Chimera, or where having a Chimera would just be a points sink, I didn't take that unit.

I know that sounds obvious, but given that with 6-8 Chimeras on the table all your anti-infantry needs were taken care of, there wasn't much reason to bring all the HW units I used to take. If I ever needed to bulk up model count without bringing more Chimeras I'd throw 30 Conscripts in.

And I never took Extra Armour on my regular Chimeras in my 'Mech Inf armies. Across 8 Chimeras that's 40 points. You can get a lot in a Guard army for 40 points (or could get - it seems options have been overpriced like mad in Arby's Codex, so we'll soon see how far 40 points stretches). EA went on my Demolishers - they had to keep moving - and maybe the odd vehicle that I knew had to get somewhere (Hellhounds, Special Weapon Squad Chimeras), but otherwise they were points better spent elsewhere.

I mean think of 8 Chimeras with Smoke and EA. That (was) 64 points. That's a Command Squad w/4 Flamers right there. Much rather have that than EA/Smoke for a bunch of vehicles that probably weren't going to be moving much all game, and usually hiding in cover anyway!

Yes, I'll agree that Chimeras were overpriced (and still are... worth 45 with AV10 sides... 55 with AV11 sides), and a reduction in cost would have meant for more rounded armies, but I don't think there's any difference in this Codex and the previous one when it comes to 'allowing' you to field such an army. They'll just be different armies.

@HBMC

You make several good points. I'll admit that the type of mech company that I would like to see is a typical triad company with a HQ and three line platoons including some type of fire support squad in each platoon and supported by company mortars. This type of list is prohibitively expensive in the current codex but is possible with the new one.

This type of company, while fun, is not likely to be very competitive, but I'll give it a whirl anyway once I get enough Chimeras and another infantry platoon. In the meantime, I'm ramping up with a smaller more elite list as a stepping stone.

So perhaps, I'm more interested in a "fluffy" mech company than a hard as nails version?

My fav army was the Armoured Cavalry list from IA1 (I think it was IA1). With that you could do equal parts tanks and infantry.

I took a 3000 point list that had 8 Russes, a big platoon with 6 Chimeras, two Enginseers with their own Chimeras (so they could keep repairing stuff) and a Macharius. Loads of fun.

I am actually looking forward to bulking up my Chimera count. Currently I only have a few, but w/ the new codex, I may start taking many more.

A HWS of 3HB runs 75pts, a Chimera w/ a HS runs 65pts, puts out roughly the same dakka and is mobile. The only thing the HWS has going for it is that it is a scoring unit. But w/ a mounted unit in the chimera, it is to.

With Chimeras instead of firesupport squads, and Vendettas instead of antitank squads, unless you're maxing out the FOC, there wont be much need for HWS :( Unless you're really low on scoring units, or want to make a firebase w/ your CCS giving orders...

Anyone planning on running HWS still?


PS.

Anyone planning on take Hellhounds? For 130 would you rather have one hellhound or 2 Chimeras with HS?

BoxANT wrote:Anyone planning on running HWS still?

Anyone planning on take Hellhounds?

If you already own HWS, and need to soak 100-odd points into a Scoring Unit, it's not a horrible thing.

If you already own HH models, then, again, not terrible.

I'll be running HH's and chimeras. no reason to decide which to run! sure, that's a few less guardsmen but those fragile little gak faces never did me any good anyways, I just wish I had spent the time painting my stormtroopers that I had spent painting 100+ guardsmen!

Those 'fragile little gak faces' are your only troops.

I don't know, it's a hard balance.

On one hand you want to take plenty of armor to dilute the effectiveness of your enemies anti tank weapons, and to maximize one of guard's best strengths (our ordnance).

But on the other hand, our infantry keeps our tanks alive (keeping melee/meltas away!) and they're our only scoring units.

Have too little men, and they'll be able to close the gap and pop our armor, or kill off our ability to score.

Have too little armor, and we might lack the pure crushing hammertastic firepower that is the guard!

And on top of that, we need some form of transport (chimera/valk) because we can no longer DS platoons on objectives.


All I know is that the point "savings" I was hoping for in the new codex don't seem to be making much of an impact...

H.B.M.C. wrote:Just a question about the picture that BoxANT posted. He didn't know, so maybe someone here will:

Does anyone know what the tiles being used in this pic are from? They're not Space Hulk tiles, so I'm wondering where they originated?

Thanks!

BoxANT wrote:

The tiles are from the FFG's Doom (the) boardgame. You can probably get a good look of the game components if you search through the ffg website. Boardgamegeek.com should have some pics at least if the manufacturer's site delivers fail.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite.asp?eidm=34

Migsula: Valkries and Vendettas are squadrons of 1-3 ( No mixing types in a squadron. Seperate choices )

There is no limit to the amount of squadrons you may take. Fill out your three fast attack if you wish.



Hellfurys on the Vendetta ignore cover saves. A potential reason to swap out your TL lascannons. That bits not in the french faq, like the Colossus' Cannon ignoring cover.



As for Chenkov. He removes units of consripts so long as they are still alive at the start of his turn ( Note that there are no liminations to being tied up in cc )

They walk on the board from reserves in your next turn. ( Not the turn you make them disappear )

Chaoslord wrote:The tiles are from the FFG's Doom (the) boardgame. You can probably get a good look of the game components if you search through the ffg website. Boardgamegeek.com should have some pics at least if the manufacturer's site delivers fail.

Ah, thank you.

I've checked boardgame geek and there doesn't seem to be a picture that just shows the contents. And the FFG sight is useless for these sorts of things as well.

They do look like nice tiles though...

Regarding Chenkov, I just noticed that on Warseer that he has a pretty interesting special rule to go with the Conscript recycle.

“Onwards you dogs!”: Units in 12" get Stubborn.

Sacrificial conscript platoons are much more likely to survive to be recycled that way.

is lumbering behemoth confirmed?

middle wrote:
Hellfurys on the Vendetta ignore cover saves. A potential reason to swap out your TL lascannons. That bits not in the french faq, like the Colossus' Cannon ignoring cover.

How much was that other tank that had the no-cover save blast again?

As for Chenkov. He removes units of consripts so long as they are still alive at the start of his turn ( Note that there are no liminations to being tied up in cc )
They walk on the board from reserves in your next turn. ( Not the turn you make them disappear )

Amazing.

Question-

Basic platoon squads can be joined to form 20-50 man single units decided at deployment.

Every basic troop may now take a chimera, from what I understand.

Does this mean that if you bought all of the squads in the platoon a transport and then joined the unit, during deployment, that the chimeras deploy as a squadron?

This would theoretically make for 30 gaurdsmen+ 3 chimeras= 2KP

Could the joining up function be why valk/vendettas are available in squadron form?


Just playing with some ideas

If so then no need for extra armor.

I would assume you can't ameobatise squads with chimers. Thus mech guard is as kp heavy as always... almost.

Does anyone have any additional insight into the amoeba rule? Can you join five separate squads into a squad of 30 and a squad of 20 for example? Or is it five separate squads or one giant squad and nothing in between?

stonefox: Colossus is 140pts. 24"-240" S6 Ap3 Ordnance 1. Large blast. Barrage. Ignores cover saves.

focusedfire: Say you take 5 squads in your platoon and you merge them ( One big 50 or a 30 and a 20 makes no difference ). Their transports remain as single dedicated transports. Nothing in the merging squads rule for free squadrons. Nice idea though.

Kujo: You can ameoba any way you want in multiples of ten ( whole squads ). 10 and 40. 20 and 30. 10 and 10 and 30. Anything you can think of. Completely up to you. Each amoeba squad gives 1Kp. The Platoon Command Squad may not amoeba and so must remain on it's own.

Platoon Commanders and Company Commanders are no longer IC's so their command squads are only worth 1Kp.

With stats like that the colossus seems like it will be a better investment than the basilisk - weaker against armor, but there are more effiecient ways of killing tanks than with your artillery anyway.

They still wound marines on a 2+, have a shorter minimun range, AND deny cover with ap3 to boot. I was thinking of going with 4 griffons (if nothing else just for the pleasure of bringing 6+ templates to the table), but maybe I should think about the colossus instead. What do you IG vets and mathhammer nuts have to say about it?

Colossus is indirect fire ONLY though, yes? That's a deal breaker for me. Once they're inside 24", you're screwed.

With any indirect fire, you can choose to direct fire and ignore the minimum range. Don't have the page number but it's in the BRB IIRC.

I like the colossus, the problem is that it's really good at something that the IG, in general, are already pretty good at: dealing with 3+ saves. We have basic pie plates when they're in the open, and tons of shots when they're in cover.

Ozymandias wrote:With any indirect fire, you can choose to direct fire and ignore the minimum range. Don't have the page number but it's in the BRB IIRC.

No, the colossus has a rule (that overrides the BRB) that it SPECIFICALLY cannot shoot directly. I know you can do so normally.

You still have to abide by the minimum range. Less than minimum range is a miss, same as over max range for any gun is a miss.

You may barrage something you have LoS to and take your Bs off the scatter but that's about as special as they get ( which is quite normal really ).

Ozymandias wrote:With any indirect fire, you can choose to direct fire and ignore the minimum range. Don't have the page number but it's in the BRB IIRC.

Although this is true, the colossus, (and maybe even the griffon) have a special rule that says something like...

"its pointing too far upwards, can't ever fire directly"

edit: how did I get 2x ninja'd in like the 30 seconds it took me to post?

Actually, you ignore minimum range when firing directly, as well as taking your BS off the scatter. But the colossus CAN'T be fired directly. Supposedly.

pg 32 40k rulebook:

Barrage weapons use blasts so refer to those rules, ie: firing directly. ( So yes they can fire directly, I've not doubted that you can't )

Cover saves from the centre of the blast.

Some barrage weapons have a minimum range. Centre of the marker falls short you miss.

Pinning.

Barrage weapons can fire at targets they cannot see. Do not deduct your Bs.



So no option to ignore the minimum range if it has one. Your bound by it because you are using a Barrage weapon.

Page 58 there champ. ORdanance barrage weapons may choose to fire directly (IGNORING THE MINUMUM RANGE) or indirectly as normal. My own words, top right hand corner of the page.

Colossus, however, cannot opt to do this. It MUST fire indirectly.

Scottywan and Shep: Sorry, didn't see that there was a special rule for the colossus and (maybe) the griffon.

Middle: I believe if you can see the target you are allowed to fire directly (and therefore ignore the minimum range), I don't have my BRB with me to quote the page number for you.* Shep and Scottywan have said that the new IG Codex has a rule which overrides this choice.

EDIT: *Ninja'd by Scottywan.

Man, there are ninjas *everywhere*!

To summarize:

Barrage - may NOT fire less than minimum Distance [BBB, p.32]
Ordnance Barrage - may fire directly less than minimum [BBB, p.58]
Griffon & Colossus - may NEVER fire directly [C: IG]

K?

Cheers Scottywan82 and Ozymandias.

Never noticed that vehicle mounted ordnance barrage weapons can fire like normal ordnance. Thanks for pointing that out.

* eats hat *

So you can move and shoot to get your direct shot ?

And it won't pin ? ( no 'Death raining from the sky' )

Nope, it's all as direct fire. Sweet, eh?

Makes me love the Basilisk a lot more.

Polonius wrote:I like the colossus, the problem is that it's really good at something that the IG, in general, are already pretty good at: dealing with 3+ saves. We have basic pie plates when they're in the open, and tons of shots when they're in cover.

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with that. Pieplates can work wonders on 3+ in the open, but dealing with nearly anything in cover is a headache. I rarely have enough lasguns and heavy bolter / autocannon to wipe out that heavy assault unit before it jumps out of cover and gets into combat. Even 100 lasrifles only wins you 5-6 dead marines. 6 autocannons only gets you 1-2 more. While you can overwhelm them with shots, I wouldn't say we're "pretty good" at it. You've really got to catch them alone in front of your entire army unless they're out of cover where ordinance and plasma can get them.

That's why IG has deep striking Veterans with plasmas/meltas. Last time I've seen SM almost tabled in turn 3. With all those AP3 & ignoring cover arties I assume the worst...

Uszaty wrote:That's why IG has deep striking Veterans with plasmas/meltas. Last time I've seen SM almost tabled in turn 3. With all those AP3 & ignoring cover arties I assume the worst...

Well we won't have deep striking Vets come the new codex, that's for sure.

Unless they're jumping out of our new shiny plastic Valks

So stop going to starbucks, you'll need the extra money.

And the extra points. While a valk may be useful itself, you're still paying 100+ more points per squad to get those plas and demo shots where you need them. That'll quickly make any deep striking demo charge and plasma list pricey.

Back to my original point - the colossus might be a good investment to get those cover-grabbing infantry IG heavy weapons and small arms seem less-than-awesome at dislodging. But could multiple weaker templates do it better with sheer number of hits? Griffons? Valks with missile pods?

hmm, I guess I just don't have that much trouble with normal MEQs, even in cover. Termies, plague marines, Death company.... those are all really butch, but things like Khorne Berzekers and ASsault Marines just aren't that scary to me. I'm not saying that the colossus isn't really good at those targets, it's just that the cost and limited value against termies/vehicles means it's a little more pigeonholed than I'd like.

Throwing one in a larger list might not be bad though.

Some of you really didnt know you could de-elevate the Basilisk's cannon? In the current codex you have to pay extra points for the option NOT to fire directly-only.

An AP3 weapon that also ignores cover saves is very relevant. Cover saves are just too prevalent now. I've had games where my Russes fired 8-9 times over the course of the game and the targets had cover very single time. It's one of my biggest annoyances with 5th edition. Our best anti-marine weapon lost a big part of it's effectiveness. The fact that the Colossus cant fire directly is probably a nod to logic (it's a mortar after all) and also a play balance issue. For me, the 24" minimum range on it pretty much shifts it from an auto-include to a "I'll proxy playtest it for a while and see". It'd be good for splutting things like Devastator squads in their backfield, small squads holding their objectives (in cover), etc... but in my experience most MEQ squads that are more than 24" away are either inside a transport or off-board in a drop pod. Still, despite the 24" min range limitation, I think the Colossus is still worth a good hard playtesting. Annoying as hell trying to kill a squad of MEQs hiding behind the wreck of their Rhino or in the crater of their former-Rhino. Jumpy troops hiding behind a wall of Rhino. Lootas in cover. Etc etc.

Anybody have the point cost of the Colossus handy? All of the above depends on point cost of course.

Posted earlier at 140 points.

160-odd points IIRC.

Ignoring cover at AP3 is worthwhile in the current environment.

It's 140 in the rumors I've heard too. Which is pricey, but it is AP3 ignoring cover... But 24 inch minimum range sucks ass.

H.B.M.C. wrote:160-odd points IIRC.

middle wrote:stonefox: Colossus is 140pts. 24"-240" S6 Ap3 Ordnance 1. Large blast. Barrage. Ignores cover saves.

And repeated right above you.

Ignoring cover at AP3 is worthwhile in the current environment.

You can get nearly two Griffons for one Colossus. So do 2 Griffons = 1 Colossus? It's probably pretty close.

Ivan had a good point, though. As much as I want that ap3 ignore cover template, he's right that most of the things that give me trouble are 24" or closer.

You'd either have to aggressively push the other guy back into the colossus's kill range (and risk turning an amoeba platoon into dogmeat when a couple tac squads or assault squads charge it) or do the criss-cross bassie deployment with them so they can cover opposite sides of the board.

Maybe more cheaper ap4 templates is the way to go. Or maybe the bassie is still the all-round best as long as you aren't afraid to nudge it out of cover to direct fire with it.

See, I actually see the value of the colosuss to be be dealing with entrenched light troops on objectives. How often do you see scouts or pathfinders or grots gone to ground in your enemies backfield? This could wreck them up pretty badly. Devestators too.

Can they squadron up?

So true! You'd probably only need at most two then... Hmm.... Artillery company, what?

They'll be MANDATORY in apocalypse. Nearly.

Well, that'd kill all those infiltrating guys! Also, can you move and fire your colossus? That way, considering the many outflanking/DS-ing CC people, hitting on a 4+ is better than an instant hit!

Not sure if it's too much trouble, but I like mathhammer, so could someone who's good at it test the griffon and the colossus? I would (if I had more time on the weekdays...) if I was good at it, but I'm not .

-A.

middle wrote:As for Chenkov. He removes units of consripts so long as they are still alive at the start of his turn ( Note that there are no liminations to being tied up in cc )

They walk on the board from reserves in your next turn. ( Not the turn you make them disappear )

When I asked this earlier someone said you couldn't do it if they were engaged. Are we sure about this?

The stubborn rule is nice, but conscripts are still LD5, and no one said they came with a sergeant. And since people have said you can't attach a commissar(wtf) you have to use a commissar lord, an IC that is an extra KP and won't come back. Please tell me I am wrong about some of that too.

Griffon 12-48" Hit with the scatter dice, wounds marines on 2s, they get a 3+ armor save. Lighter units get a cover save.

Colossus 24-240" hits on scatter, wounds on 2s, no save for marines, no cover save.

The Colossus has been another target for my mental kicking-around-the-parking-lot. On paper, it's dead scary. In reality, most everything is going to be 24" from the gunline and trying to get closer, so if you get 2 rounds of shooting, I'd count you pretty lucky.

However, the Colossus basically crushes objective holders. Very, very few troop choices (I can think of three...maybe four) can stand up to even a single direct Colossus hit without losing a crapload of guys. Two Colossi for ... 280 pts, I think? ... should be able to clear 2-3 objectives completely by the end of the game, solo. Is it worth 280 pts to know that I can force my opponent off his objectives either by death or by coralling them to within my 24" kill bubble?

Back to the parking lot, and time to get a change of shoes.

As and Eldar player the Colossus scares the heck outta me. I field both Wraithguard and Pathfinders as Troops. If I see a Colossus on the table, it will take fire priority over everything else out there.

As a Guard player, the only downside to taking them means I have to squadron some or all of my 3 LRBT's. Sourclams nailed it...taking the Colossus brings the enemy to your gunline.

Well, isn't that the point? You'd hardly expect them to sit tight and stand there.

Hmm... Good point. I will be sacrificing some of my Russes to get these.

Question: Can the Vanquisher fire normal LRBT rounds?

Magic Hate Ball Says:

Not bloody likely.

sourclams wrote:Question: Can the Vanquisher fire normal LRBT rounds?

All Indications say no. The Vanquisher Cannon is a separate weapon than the Battle Cannon now.

The Angry Commissar wrote:is lumbering behemoth confirmed?

Yup. You can drive and fire all guns including the main cannon, but I think there was something about rolling a D6 how far you can go.

Ozymandias wrote:You can get nearly two Griffons for one Colossus. So do 2 Griffons = 1 Colossus? It's probably pretty close.

Assuming 7 under the blast marker, the Griffons will kill 4 Marines (3.89). The single Colossus, also hitting 7 models, will kill 6 Marines (5.83). I say bring both...

I will! As soon as they have a kit for the colossus.

Anung Un Rama wrote:

The Angry Commissar wrote:is lumbering behemoth confirmed?

Yup. You can drive and fire all guns including the main cannon, but I think there was something about rolling a D6 how far you can go.

I believe the rule is that the turret weapon does not count against how many weapons you can normally fire. So you can remain stationary and fire everything, or move and fire turret+ 1 offensive weapon + all defensive. And max speed is 6" + d6" and no firing.



I think the Bassie is going to be passed over in favor of the Colossus. There is really not much reason (in a normal 40k game) to take a bassie, when for 15pts more you get a weapon that has a shorter *minimum* range, is still ap3 and ignore cover.

Colossus and Griffion are where it is at in regards to Arty. imo.

Scottywan82 wrote:I will! As soon as they have a kit for the colossus.

They do, it's called "my Basilisk counts as a Colossus"

I'm waiting for the IG Codex that was awarded at Adepticon to make it on to the internets somewhere if it hasn't already. I haven't been able to find it.

eBay? Bugger that. I'm trying to find it 'elsewhere'. So far the search has not gone well...

I actually considered cutting the length if a bassie down and calling it a colossus. We'll see.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:You can get nearly two Griffons for one Colossus. So do 2 Griffons = 1 Colossus? It's probably pretty close.

Assuming 7 under the blast marker, the Griffons will kill 4 Marines (3.89). The single Colossus, also hitting 7 models, will kill 6 Marines (5.83). I say bring both...

Heh. The trade off for me is that the Griffon has a shorter min range and there are two of them so more survivable. The only cover that will save from a Griffon is area cover/bunkers (being a barrage and all) so I'm not sure if a single Colossus is better than the 2 Griffons.

But you're right, to be safe better take both...

Because somebody asked: the Griff and Colossus, being barrage-only, can not move and fire.
The Colossus's minimum range does nicely coincide with the Demolisher's maximum range, to bring back an old Basilisk tactic. Yes, Mr Space Marine, please hurry into range of my Demolisher cannon. Bringing siege mortars and a Demolisher in the same army even fits an army theme, the siege regiment.

Has GW announced kits for the Griffon, Medusa, or Colossus? The Griffon would just be a re-release but there haven't ever been a Medusa or Colossus model.

I think one can expect GWT to (eventually) release a combi-kit with a multi-part barrel that makes Griffon / Medusa / Basilisk / Colossus depending on which barrel elements you include and stack together.

This would be using the same technology and approach as seen with the Baneblade / Hellhound, and more recently with the 6-in-1 Shadowsword / Stormlord / ...

But the idea that GW would re-release such an old (expensive to produce and ill-fitting to build) metal-and-plastic kit as the old Griffon is very unlikely.

Personally, I hope GW includes gun crew in the next version. That would be awesome.

There is gun crew included. You get a sprue for the guardsmen that come with the HW box.

So, only 2 guys?

I was hoping for a full crew of 4 - spotter, loader, gunner, radioman...

That would require making an new sprue for the basilisk, or including another half of a $13 kit, which would surely raise prices. Honestly I'm happy that they include a crew of 2, and if you really want the full 4 it's not like IG players don't have an extra 2 guys sitting around

The Guard accessory sprue also comes with a complete Guardsmen. He's a little static, but then again he's meant to stand at the back of a Basilisk.

A side note: how do we distinguish H. Vets from guardsmen? Are there bald screaming heads for them?

i paint the helmets a different color for my vets.

ph34r wrote:But the idea that GW would re-release such an old (expensive to produce and ill-fitting to build) metal-and-plastic kit as the old Griffon is very unlikely.

I'd be more inclined to think that they would not make an entirely new kit when they have the molds for an old one, especially since they have already designed so many other new models. I don't think I've been a confirmation on a new Russ setup with all/most of the new configurations included either.

*Edited so that it makes sense*

middle wrote:focusedfire: Say you take 5 squads in your platoon and you merge them ( One big 50 or a 30 and a 20 makes no difference ). Their transports remain as single dedicated transports. Nothing in the merging squads rule for free squadrons. Nice idea though.

Now this brings up other questions.

If the squads are merged then loaded into a squadron or their individual transports, "What happens when one of the chimera/valks gets destroyed?" Is the squad destroyed with the transport if in a squadron? Do all of the squads have to disembark at that point? For that matter. Do merged units have to maintain 2" coherency or are they still seperate but have to attack the same target?

I'm sorry if I'm being dense but it seems that there may be a lot of gray area in the merging rule. I just want to know the strengths and weaknesses.

I'd say that they couldn't take/use transports if you take them in a blob platoon.

I thought blob was done at deployment like combat squads?

Yet, your write your army up with them having transports before you ever get to deployment.

The common sense thing would be that units with transports can't merge but I haven't heard any rule about this, as of yet. It's why I'm asking.

BGB page 67.

"The only limitation of a dedicated transport is that when it is deployed it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any independent characters)."

Note, it does NOT say it *must* carry the unit it was selected with.

So when you deploy a mechanized platoon, if you merge the infantry squads, they could still be deployed as a giant squad but obviously not inside a transport. But the option to merge squads that a mechanized is there.

focusedfire wrote:Yet, your write your army up with them having transports before you ever get to deployment.

Which is why I said "couldn't take/use transports" - in this case an either/or - they ether can't take them or can't use them. One of the two.

You're right though, because the blobbing effect happens when you deploy, it's probably not a case of not being able to take transports. I suspect you just won't be able to use them on any squads that have blobbed.

But it doesn't say that such merged squads can't deploy in their dedicated transports.

When squads are loaded in their dedicated transports they deploy as a single unit. Now if three such squads are merged it would create a squadron. Or can three merged squads be loaded in a squadron of three valks?

This could be an interesting debate unless the merging rules provide clarity. But I will refrain from the debate until there is definite word on the rules in this situation.

I'm just imagining 3 merged squads in a three valk squadron having just moved 12" to line up for the drop run and one of the valks gets immobilized. Is the unit inside destroyed? Do they get out? If they get out will the rest of the merged unit have to disembark? It's a no-brainer at 24" seeing as the unit inside the valk will be destroyed.

A merged squad, by the definition of being a single unit, would have to maintain coherency. You can't split a unit up to fit into a transport. The far simpler idea is that they simply can't use a transport unless there is a transport big enough to hold them (like a Stormlord or Gorgon).

I don't think there will be a rules issue because there is no way one unit can be in multiple transports, unless they make a special rule for it, which they won't.

They said the platypus wasn't real too.

focusedfire wrote:But it doesn't say that such merged squads can't deploy in their dedicated transports.

When squads are loaded in their dedicated transports they deploy as a single unit. Now if three such squads are merged it would create a squadron. Or can three merged squads be loaded in a squadron of three valks?

This could be an interesting debate unless the merging rules provide clarity. But I will refrain from the debate until there is definite word on the rules in this situation.

I'm just imagining 3 merged squads in a three valk squadron having just moved 12" to line up for the drop run and one of the valks gets immobilized. Is the unit inside destroyed? Do they get out? If they get out will the rest of the merged unit have to disembark? It's a no-brainer at 24" seeing as the unit inside the valk will be destroyed.

Debate? how is it unclear?

Merged unit contains 20-50 models. Chimera capacity is 12.

To say that "well perhaps they'll be able to split up in stay in coherency in their transports and still count as 1 KP and 1 unit" requires the assumption of completely new rules.

So unless they *introduce new rules*, we go by the current rules.

@ BoxANT-The distance to the unit inside of the transport is measured to the hull for the purpose of psychic ranged attacks.

Building from this, as long as the hulls stay within 2" they would still be in coherency.

This isn't even taking into accout that "if" the models are already considered loaded at the time of the merging then it would create a defacto squadron. This is because a squad loaded in its transport count as a single unit when rolling for them to come in from reserves.


AAAUUGGGHHH- I said that I didn't want to debate this until the rules were out and you baited me into it. BoxANT, I salute you.

Later

I think we need to apply Occam's Razor to this... oh I see BoxANT already did.

This is why people get angry at the concept of "rules lawyer". Rules lawyers are the guys making the INAT document. But people see what FF's doing and mistake....whatever it is...for rules lawyering.

@ BoxANT-The distance to the unit inside of the transport is measured to the hull for the purpose of psychic ranged attacks.

Building from this, as long as the hulls stay within 2" they would still be in coherency.

This isn't even taking into accout that "if" the models are already considered loaded at the time of the merging then it would create a defacto squadron. This is because a squad loaded in its transport count as a single unit when rolling for them to come in from reserves.

Really, wut?

Please do not confuse the questions I'm bringing up with anything I would,might, or want to do.

I've played across from so many who would make these arguments that I look for clarifications before I have to deal with it in-game.

I'm not proposing that such arguments should be made, only that they will be unless the rules are very clear.


This is why if you go back to the beginning of this particular subject I was asking for clarity on whether units with transports could be merged and whether their transportd were included.
Basically, if there are transports involved then how does merging affect or work in this instance.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I think we need to apply Occam's Razor to this... oh I see BoxANT already did.

His reply failed to address the Valk/Squadron portion. This is why I'm interested in reading the rules on merging personally. I'm amazed/annoyed that there isn't a bloody leaked PDF as of yet.

It didn't need to address it. It's the same deal.

Round peg. Square hole. And the peg is HUGE!!

50-man unit not go in 12-man transport.

lol. peg

SM get the ability to break apart a unit during deployment (combat squads). One KP becomes two KP.

IG gets the ability to combine squads during. 2-5 KP become one KP (one unit).


What you are saying is that we could deploy our platoon as one unit, and then during the game, redeploy them in transports as separate units and still have them be worth only one KP.

Just like you can put both parts of a Combat Squaded Tactical squad in the same rhino, you can't put a combined platoon in their separate transports.

It breaks the core rule of the game which is: One unit per transport.

Apart from all the reasons given here, the rule form combining squad stated that the merged units can´t be transported in a vehicle with less capacity than his members.

I think his point is you make your list before gaming I usually wright mine up at home before I go gaming.
Before the game you roll up the mission and low and behold kill points. Well ok then I will mush my squads together to lower the kill points and not put them in the vehicles.
He wants to know if you bought the vehicles for the squads. Why don't the vehicles just turn into a squad with the guys in them using the squad rules for vehicles?
Or do they sit there not transporting or providing protection for the squads they were purchased for?
Trying to help a brother pie man out.

We know what he means - he's been quite clear there.

What we doubt is that the rules even cover that beyond "units may not embark on a transport with insufficient capacity". And I doubt all the transports become a squadron when you join the squads together.

The answer is clear I think. You make your list with a mobilized platoon of say, 3 line squads. When you decide to merge, you deploy the platoon and the transports seperately. They can now zip around on their own or transport someone else.

Even if they were a squadron (very doubtful), they would still be individual transports. They don't become one single giant transport. You cannot spread any one unit amongst more than one vehicle.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:You can get nearly two Griffons for one Colossus. So do 2 Griffons = 1 Colossus? It's probably pretty close.

Assuming 7 under the blast marker, the Griffons will kill 4 Marines (3.89). The single Colossus, also hitting 7 models, will kill 6 Marines (5.83). I say bring both...

The Griffon is rumoured to be more accurate though (re-roll scatter?).

Assuming only a direct hit is a good hit (which will sometimes be too strict), the Griffons have a 55 % (33 % + 33 % x 66 %) chance to hit and the Colossus a 33 % chance only.

I know what to do buy 6 gorgans that will fix the problem * looks at the gorgan price at fw *

Have there ever been any pictures/reference material for a Colossus? I think models exist for every other tank (even if they are FW) besides the Colossus. I wonder what it is supposed to look like?

The FW bombard could be a nice stand-in if you've got the cash for it.

I would imagine that if you want to merge mech squads, you will just have 1 megasquad and the chimeras will just drive around and do their own thing. I doubt you'll be allowed to merge and unmerge your squads whenever you want to.

I think for a colossus (if you didn't want to use PVC piping) you could do well to get a 1/35 or so WW1 or 2 mobile artillery model to hack up for parts, then stick them on a chimera.

They'll probably have a drawing of some sort.

@BoxANT, H.B.M.C., Harridan, Lord Solar Plexus, and Middle

Thanks for the input guys. Unless something changes drastically, I'll be able to shut that cheese down very quickly, if it comes up.

Also thanks to Sonofruss for having my back.

Later

vonjankmon: There are pictures of the new tanks in the codex. Some are lucky to have their own artwork. Russ variants and Ordnance battery vehicles all have side on line drawings. Gives you enough detail to have a go at making your own.

Colossus looks somewhere between the forgeworld Bombard and and Griffon. On a Chimera chassis of course.


Thinking of the Colossus and its no cover saves rule that is not printed in the french pdf made me remember another little tidbit that's not on there. The Deathstrike missile does not half it's strength when its blasts hole is not over the target vehicle. S10 Ap1. Ouch.


focusedfire: Chimeras do not merge into squadrons when their squads merge they stay separate. You can't mount one unit across multiple vehicles.

The 50 man squad can get whittled down to twelve or less by casualties etc, then get in a chimera / Valk.

Lord Solar Plexus: Griffon does indeed re-roll scatter ( no restriction to it too, such as staying still. )

middle wrote:Thinking of the Colossus and its no cover saves rule that is not printed in the french pdf made me remember another little tidbit that's not on there. The Deathstrike missile does not half it's strength when its blasts hole is not over the target vehicle. S10 Ap1. Ouch.

That may make these more popular. I anticipate cries of outrage the first few games that these are used.
Edit: The one use only still makes these less than desirable IMO.

middle wrote:Lord Solar Plexus: Griffon does indeed re-roll scatter ( no restriction to it too, such as staying still. )

Don't ordnance barrage weapons have to remain stationary to fire their barrage? (p. 58, BRB)

JB wrote:

middle wrote:Lord Solar Plexus: Griffon does indeed re-roll scatter ( no restriction to it too, such as staying still. )

Don't ordnance barrage weapons have to remain stationary to fire their barrage? (p. 58, BRB)

To fire their *barrrage*? Yes.

But they can fire directly on the move, but they need LOS and it counts as normal ordnance. But the Colossus can not do this, but it sounds like the Griffion still can (am I reading your right Middle?).

Yerp.

Colossus has to barrage.

Griffon is just normal vehicle mounted ordnance,

BoxANT wrote:

JB wrote:

middle wrote:Lord Solar Plexus: Griffon does indeed re-roll scatter ( no restriction to it too, such as staying still. )

Don't ordnance barrage weapons have to remain stationary to fire their barrage? (p. 58, BRB)

To fire their *barrrage*? Yes.

But they can fire directly on the move, but they need LOS and it counts as normal ordnance. But the Colossus can not do this, but it sounds like the Griffion still can (am I reading your right Middle?).

GW should have released Griffons in Wave 1. Forge World will probably sell quite a few in the meantime. I will have to drag my Griffon bits out of mothballs and stick them on a new Chimera chassis.

I'm buying 3 FW ones right off the bat. It sucks, but they're just too good NOT to have.

If, in fact, Griffons can fire normally instead of barrage style, then they get even more love compared to the Colossus.

I'm going to need to buy my old 3rd ed Griffon a new little brother.

On a side note, is anyone else mildly excited about the prospect of putting hull heavy flamers on their artillery tanks? For some reason I really like the idea of the vehicles mounting their own close-quarters defense.

Biophysic wrote:If, in fact, Griffons can fire normally instead of barrage style, then they get even more love compared to the Colossus.

I'm going to need to buy my old 3rd ed Griffon a new little brother.

On a side note, is anyone else mildly excited about the prospect of putting hull heavy flamers on their artillery tanks? For some reason I really like the idea of the vehicles mounting their own close-quarters defense.

A heavy flamer makes sense to me since you will almost never fire a HB anyway. Your Griffon will probably be in or behind cover. If you fire ordnance with it then you can't fire the HB. Even if you fire direct you don't get the Lumbering Behemoth rule AFAIK so you still can't fire a HB. So the only real use for a hull weapon is when the enemy is close but even then, with a Griffon, I'd probably fire my ordnance at a far off target and let the enemy assaulter take his swings. It's only 75 points!

JB wrote:

A heavy flamer makes sense to me since you will almost never fire a HB anyway. Your Griffon will probably be in or behind cover. If you fire ordnance with it then you can't fire the HB. Even if you fire direct you don't get the Lumbering Behemoth rule AFAIK so you still can't fire a HB. So the only real use for a hull weapon is when the enemy is close but even then, with a Griffon, I'd probably fire my ordnance at a far off target and let the enemy assaulter take his swings. It's only 75 points!

Or just direct fire the main gun since whatever gets that close should be within pretty easy line of sight.

Gestalt wrote:

middle wrote:As for Chenkov. He removes units of consripts so long as they are still alive at the start of his turn ( Note that there are no liminations to being tied up in cc )

They walk on the board from reserves in your next turn. ( Not the turn you make them disappear )

When I asked this earlier someone said you couldn't do it if they were engaged. Are we sure about this?

The stubborn rule is nice, but conscripts are still LD5, and no one said they came with a sergeant. And since people have said you can't attach a commissar(wtf) you have to use a commissar lord, an IC that is an extra KP and won't come back. Please tell me I am wrong about some of that too.

Sorry to quote myself but it might affect my potential purchases soon. People have still claimed both ways on this and then got lost under direct firing colossus'. (colossi?) Also the griffon/colossus combo mentioned earlier seems pretty sweet.

From Lord Cook on Warseer

> All officers get refractor fields as standard. Even the platoon commanders.

> Spearhead sentinels get extra armour as standard. So Av12, extra armour and autocannon will set you back 60 points.

> Manticores are close topped. Most won't care, but I'm breathing a sigh of relief.

> Veterans and rough riders are confirmed to all carry frags and kraks as standard.

> The psykers 'soulstorm' ability (the pie plate with Ap D6) isn't Heavy 1, it's Assault 1. Along with 'weaken resolve' (the leadership killer), both powers have 36" range.

> Psykers are confirmed at +10 points per extra psyker.

Voxes only allow a re-roll of orders. Nothing else. One other thing I forgot:

> The Master of Ordnance's artillery strike counts as his shooting. So barring any unusual wording that I missed somewhere, you can indeed use a mortar to spot for him.

I'm particularly excited by the new Enginseers. You pay 45 points for the guy, and he's basically a guardsmen in power armour with a S8 power fist. He fixes weapon destroyed and immobilised results on a 5+, and does so in the shooting phase. Standard +1 to the roll for each servitor with a harness. He doesn't take up a FOC slot either. This now seems to be a viable option for anyone who uses a lot of vehicles.

The Enginseer looks like he is basically a mini SM tech priest, which isn't a bad thing The fix in the shooting phase buff actually makes these guys usable, since you can drive them over to a damaged tank in a chimera and still fix it.

If it follows the SM codex, then servitors will be 10pts each and have a single S8 powerfist attack, so not only would a squad (Eng.+4 Serv) be able to fix imm/WD on a 1+, it could also toss out ~5 Powerfist attacks in a pinch. Not bad in larger games where you have a lot of tanks.

SoulStorm/WeakenResolve both look very good! Assault1 36", that's awesome 80pts gets you a S6 apD6 large blast or a -6 LD both with 42" effective range, sounds like a great deal imo.

Sentinels still seem a bit overpriced imo. We'll see if the ability to tie up squads in CC is worth the price...

Not certain out MoO + Mortar would work. Do you need LOS for MoO? Doesn't it still scatter on a hit?

Any word on the weapon loadout of the techpriest's retinue? Can we take multiple plasma cannons?

Gestalt: I think the ruling as it stands is that you can remove conscipts even if they are in combat at the start of your turn, then they come on at the start of your next turn. When they come back, its only with the upgrades they carried originally, which means attached ICs and the like are not included in the respawn.

BoxANT wrote:Not certain out MoO + Mortar would work. Do you need LOS for MoO? Doesn't it still scatter on a hit?

It's another multiple barrage shenanigan. Basically, since the MoO's barrage is part of the unit's shooting, any other barrage weapon in the same squad (such as a mortar) would cause the multiple barrage rules to come into effect. Make sure the mortar is closer to the enemy than the master of ordnance and it becomes the ranging shot. The master of ordnance's barrage then uses the multiple barrage rule which overrides the usual scatter rule.

Gestalt: There are no restrictions to killing off your squad of conscripts.

Start of your turn you decide you don't want them, then next turn a fresh ( identical minus any IC's ) unit walks on from your board edge.

Nothing was written about being locked in cc or anything else you can imagine.

The way I see it is that they don't just 'disappear'. You leave them for dead / lose hope in them, so they are still milling about but take no further part in the battle.

Interestingly I didn't write anything down noting what happens if they were tied up in cc because there was nothing there to write. Leaves me wondering what happens to the enemy unit? If they're bunched up after assaulting your conscripts and there's no mention of a consolidate for them ( after all, it is your movement phase ) then i'm sure that's a hell of a lot of pie plates heading their way in your shooting phase.

On the Mortar + MoO thing: We all know that codex specific rules override general ones, do we? SoWouldn't the codex rule that the MOO's shot always deviates XYZ inches take precedence over the general multiple barrage rules?

Possibly. Depends a lot on the final wording and might need an errate.

Honestly I think the Griffon + Colossus combo will be far nastier than the Mortor + MoO combo. The ignoring cover at AP 3 is just insane...need to see what a Colossus looks like so I can see about getting two and then finding a Griffon somewhere.

middle wrote:
Griffon is just normal vehicle mounted ordnance,

Sorry but I distinctly remember the griffon to fire only barrage as the colossus (the rule was in small italic font as the colossus). Middle, if you could, check it next time you take a look at it. At least it was in our traslated version. For me it would be a reason to use a manticore rather than two griffons.
Also if you remember: did the chimera have a special rule for the 5 fire points? Does it says where are they located?

middle wrote:Gestalt: There are no restrictions to killing off your squad of conscripts.

Start of your turn you decide you don't want them, then next turn a fresh ( identical minus any IC's ) unit walks on from your board edge.

Nothing was written about being locked in cc or anything else you can imagine.

The way I see it is that they don't just 'disappear'. You leave them for dead / lose hope in them, so they are still milling about but take no further part in the battle.

Interestingly I didn't write anything down noting what happens if they were tied up in cc because there was nothing there to write. Leaves me wondering what happens to the enemy unit? If they're bunched up after assaulting your conscripts and there's no mention of a consolidate for them ( after all, it is your movement phase ) then i'm sure that's a hell of a lot of pie plates heading their way in your shooting phase.

I brought this up earlier in the thread. An interesting idea would be to string 20 of them out in front of your linesin the open where they will get assaulted and then let them die. The assaulting unit is now stuck in an open field with the hammer and anvil of the imperium aiming at it. Could work well for taking the bite out of assault marines, raptors, even demons and the like.

I'll certainly check the 'barrage only' for both tanks. I'm sure the colossus definitely is.

Chimera fire points are considered from the top hatch. Yep. All five. Bit of a tight squeeze but nice and simple for range / LoS.

Yay, now I can chop off those silly lasguns.

After reading Warseer rumor threads, they seem to have a lot of information about the new codex. Has it been leaked or is this all still speculation?

It's from people who have read it and written it down.

And no, it hasn't leaked. Sadly.

Seconded.

Couple of random bits of info from the Codex, not rules, just impressions from skimming the pages.

1. Lots of new artwork, as you'd expect. I really like the new picture of the Techpriest.
2. Storm Trooper pic is quite interesting. He ain't Kasrkin, and he's not one of the original Stormies either.
3. The Colossus is the Bombard!!!! So they've just renamed it! Bastards.
4. The Griffon picture is the FW version, not the original version. So if they do a model of it, expect a plastic-i-fication of the FW version.
5. Hydra gets its own page!
6. Command Platoon page is huge! Every damned weapon option, upgrade unit option, skills and whatnot. Makes the Chapter Master look like a summary.
7. Yeah, it seems most units got new art. Manticore shows up with new art. Special Characters (sans Creed & Yarrick) get new art. New art for Al'rahem is cool.
8. Nork's 110-fething-points. Wow.
9. Priests are beyond stupidly overpriced. 45 points for a T3 W1 model. I don't care if he has a Rosarius as standard, that just means I need three bolter shots to kill him rather than two.
10. Support Sentinels are 55 points. Plasma's 20. Not worth it.

That's all that's worth reporting really. Sadly I can't read Spanish.

Ok, so how would this stack? Ameba platoon of say 40 with a fisting commisar, priest, and under orders "for Cadia?" How nasty would that be?

You can buy another squad for the cost of that Priest. Blob an extra 10 men into the unit.

H.B.M.C. wrote:2. Storm Trooper pic is quite interesting. He ain't Kasrkin, and he's not one of the original Stormies either./quote]When you say original Stormies, do you mean the ones in the beret? Or the middle stormies between Beret and Kasrkin?