I'm solidly in the 'hell with guard infantry platoons' camp on this codex. In the last book if you could take a doctrine for 20 points that improved your infantrymen's BS by 1 and allowed them to take 3 special weapons per squad wouldn't you have done so? Vet. squads in chimeras with special weapons to utilize the 5 firing points (w/ ML, HB and EA for 70 pts) just seems amazing too. If vets can recieve orders, which they should be able to, then the deal is sealed for me.

Wait...aren't Veterans a part of an Infantry Platoon?

So... this rumor isn't true?

Vox casters ignore the range for orders so you can do it anywhere on the batttlefield and let you re-roll your Ld test.

Re: Vox...

...Wow, so this is what nerd rage feels like.

Vets can indeed receive orders, but not when they are inside a vehicle.

You can order out of a chimera but not into one.

I think it's a little odd that we get a massive boost to the fire points but can't use them to shoot well.

And yeah, I agree that the Vets are more and more tempting than ever now.

CKO wrote:The new codex isnt holy water its not going to somehow make all our problems disappear. There are so many nasty things we can do with this new codex its not funny.

...

It is however human nature to resist change and people love being part of the group.

You are quite adept, CKO, at dismissing the concerns of others whilst presenting your own views as fact. Furthermore, you also subscribe to the same flawed argument that a lot of people had in my 'Chaos' Codex review thread in that you claim that you can still do 'nasty things' with this Codex, as though that was some counter to what we have been saying.

Let me clarify that for you:

When we say - 'They've nerfed these units, and have reduced the Guard to nothing but a static gunline which is boring.'
You say - 'It's still powerful!'

You notice the disconnect? At no point do we say the Codex isn't powerful, or lacks powerful units/combinations. What we're actually saying is that we're dissapointed with the direction the Codex has taken. Power is secondary if the Codex is boring (just look at the current 'Chaos' Codex - a perfectly servicable list with many great builds... all utterly drab and lifeless in comparison to the previous Chaos Codex, the real one).

It doesn't matter if the Codex contains the best list ever and it wipes your opponent off the table on Turn 1 if that same list is boring and filled with arbitrary restrictions. If the 'flavour' units and options are costed so badly (Ogryn, Stormtroopers, Punisher) or nerfed to the point where they're not useful (Nerfhound, Noxes), then that skews everyone towards a similar sort of build - and it's the same build we've been playing for 15 years - gun line w/tanks. The last Guard Codex, as horrible as the Doctrine System was, opened that up a bit with the different forces you could have. That's gone now, replaced with Orders and blob Platoons.

Power is meaningless if the power is boring to play.

ubermosher wrote:...Wow, so this is what nerd rage feels like.

And your post is what trolling looks like.

Emperor forbid anyone have a valid criticism for a Codex... no, no, no. Anyone who isn't happy sunshines and espousing apologetic bull-gak simply must be 'nerdraging'.

Quick question, can Manticores be taken in Squadrons?

If so, the hell with Leman Russes, I'm taking 9 Manticores.

@CKO

I agree that the new codex offers some interesting possibilities. As Polonius said, the IG gunline may very well be more lethal. The new Valkyrie/Vendetta "death from above" army has some appeal. My personal new favorite will be a Cadian veteran mechanized company.

But you must understand that simple resistance to change is not why our fellow Dakkaites are upset. The new codex makes several favored IG army styles unplayable. Players that have invested a lot of money and time have legitimate gripes when GW makes dramatic changes that, at this point, make little sense. Perhaps Robin Cruddace will explain some of his logic in the next WD.

If the Guard don't gunline, who will?!

Tau

H.B.M.C. wrote:

CKO wrote:The new codex isnt holy water its not going to somehow make all our problems disappear. There are so many nasty things we can do with this new codex its not funny.

...

It is however human nature to resist change and people love being part of the group.

You are quite adept, CKO, at dismissing the concerns of others whilst presenting your own views as fact. Furthermore, you also subscribe to the same flawed argument that a lot of people had in my 'Chaos' Codex review thread in that you claim that you can still do 'nasty things' with this Codex, as though that was some counter to what we have been saying.

Let me clarify that for you:

When we say - 'They've nerfed these units, and have reduced the Guard to nothing but a static gunline which is boring.'
You say - 'It's still powerful!'

You notice the disconnect? At no point do we say the Codex isn't powerful, or lacks powerful units/combinations. What we're actually saying is that we're dissapointed with the direction the Codex has taken. Power is secondary if the Codex is boring (just look at the current 'Chaos' Codex - a perfectly servicable list with many great builds... all utterly drab and lifeless in comparison to the previous Chaos Codex, the real one).

It doesn't matter if the Codex contains the best list ever and it wipes your opponent off the table on Turn 1 if that same list is boring and filled with arbitrary restrictions. If the 'flavour' units and options are costed so badly (Ogryn, Stormtroopers, Punisher) or nerfed to the point where they're not useful (Nerfhound, Noxes), then that skews everyone towards a similar sort of build - and it's the same build we've been playing for 15 years - gun line w/tanks. The last Guard Codex, as horrible as the Doctrine System was, opened that up a bit with the different forces you could have. That's gone now, replaced with Orders and blob Platoons.

Power is meaningless if the power is boring to play.

In the great words of Rafiki from Lion King, "Look harder"

What did they nerf?

Infantry squads: their cheaper, weapons are cheaper, can merge to get rid of kp issues, and can recieve orders

Vox: five points to recieve ld9 to rerolling an order that will twinlinked our lascannon
(5 points to recieve an order at what ever distance and a reroll lol)

Stormtroopers: old codex vets were better, to ap3 enough said we can make it work

Ogyrns: plain out useless to carrying around a miniature heavybolter and they have toughness 5

I guess I am a bit selfish because I dont care what direction gw is going with the codex, aslong as we can make our playing style better. We shouldnt care how other players use their guard, or what is going to happen to the stereotypical gunline approach of guard. I win the majority of my games with the old codex and with the new codex I will be better.

I feel bad that the majority of my peers feel like everything is nerfed, however come May 2nd I feel that we will be able to make other people say the new guard is broken.

Nurgleboy77 wrote:Wait...aren't Veterans a part of an Infantry Platoon?

That's a good question. I assumed that units of veterans could be individual troop choices.

Middle, do veterans need a platoon command squad? If so, my new army list is going to end up with some BS3 scrubs. C'est la guerre!

This griping over the vox is like getting a T-Bone steak and complaining it is not served on a silver platter

CKO wrote:Infantry squads: their cheaper, weapons are cheaper, can merge to get rid of kp issues, and can recieve orders

I agree with most of this but plasma guns are more expensive and merging is a double edged sword. I think the KP problem is just one that we have to live with until 6th Edition.

CKO wrote:Vox: five points to recieve ld9 to rerolling an order that will twinlinked our lascannon

This is not confirmed. Yes we have a good chance to twin-link but since we lost the Leadership rule we may be rolling on either LD8 (for a LC in a squad) or LD7 (for a LC in a HWS).

CKO wrote:I feel bad that the majority of my peers feel like everything is nerfed, however come May 2nd I feel that we will be able to make other people say the new guard is broken.

This is entirely possible. I will certainly do my part, but it will be better for many IG armies when GW releases a Vendetta model.

"This griping over the vox is like getting a T-Bone steak and complaining it is not served on a silver platter"

you forgot to mention that we also don't have teeth in your example.

JB wrote:

CKO wrote:Infantry squads: their cheaper, weapons are cheaper, can merge to get rid of kp issues, and can recieve orders

I agree with most of this but plasma guns are more expensive and merging is a double edged sword. I think the KP problem is just one that we have to live with until 6th Edition.

CKO wrote:Vox: five points to recieve ld9 to rerolling an order that will twinlinked our lascannon

This is not confirmed. Yes we have a good chance to twin-link but since we lost the Leadership rule we may be rolling on either LD8 (for a LC in a squad) or LD7 (for a LC in a HWS).

CKO wrote:I feel bad that the majority of my peers feel like everything is nerfed, however come May 2nd I feel that we will be able to make other people say the new guard is broken.

This is entirely possible. I will certainly do my part, but it will be better for many IG armies when GW releases a Vendetta model.

You hit my soft spot , I am a very optimistic about the codex, but my plasmaguns going up to 15pts, I mean come on 10pts for a autocannon but 15 for a plasmagun on bs3 AWWWWWWWWWWWWW.

i think taking three squads of psykers with a chimera transport and Pinning weapons would be a pretty awesome little combo or hell just 2 squads.

Being able to drop leadership with psychic attacks is pretty bad ass.

CKO wrote:I feel bad that the majority of my peers feel like everything is nerfed, however come May 2nd I feel that we will be able to make other people say the new guard is broken.

It being broken or perfectly balance is meaningless if the army isn't interesting to play. If it comes down to the fact that the killer build is a gunline and tanks, then so be it, but we've been doing that for 15 years. A lot of people liked the variety of the last Guard Codex (just like all us Legion players and players who used Daemons a lot liked the previos Chaos Codex). Removing these, even with an increase in 'power' doesn't help.

So, once again, a boring Codex is no fun to play, no matter how quickly it can 'table' one's opponent.

As for what they nerfed? You're cherry-picking the good bits and ignoring the bad.

AP3 Storm Troopers? You're forgetting they cost as much as a Marine each, yet are far less durable.
T5 Ogryn? You're forgetting that they cost as much as a Terminator.
5 Point Voxes? You're forgetting that you have to be within 6" of the officer to use your radio... does that not strike you as odd? At all?

The other half of the 'bad' in this isn't nerfs (aside from the Nerfhound, but we all knew that was coming). It's from redundancy and arbitrary restrictions and decisions.

Commissars in Squads can't get Power Fists but one in a Platoon Command Squad can... because... why? They're both Commissars. The Nerfhound is redundant because the Eradicator does a better job. The Punisher is redundant because A). it's cost is very high and B). the Eradicator does a better job. Why is the Medusa in the Codex when it's an AV12 Demolisher w/+12" of range... and that's it? What possessed Arby to create the Vendetta, a unit that makes the Valkyrie obselete before the model is even released. Why has Plasma Guns gone up 5 points? Have they suddenly gotten better? Has our Ballistic Skill gone up? Do we now have a 3+ save to deal with Gets Hot!? No? Then why?

Guard will have 'killer builds'. What will have lists that can take apart other lists in a matter of turns. Guard won't have (as many) problems winning games as they do now. But Guard won't have any toy units because they're too expensive or too useless to use (or both). Guard won't bring half the new units because they don't do anything something else can do cheaper or better (or both).

And Guard won't be interesting.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

CKO wrote:The new codex isnt holy water its not going to somehow make all our problems disappear. There are so many nasty things we can do with this new codex its not funny.

...

It is however human nature to resist change and people love being part of the group.

You are quite adept, CKO, at dismissing the concerns of others whilst presenting your own views as fact. Furthermore, you also subscribe to the same flawed argument that a lot of people had in my 'Chaos' Codex review thread in that you claim that you can still do 'nasty things' with this Codex, as though that was some counter to what we have been saying.

Let me clarify that for you:

When we say - 'They've nerfed these units, and have reduced the Guard to nothing but a static gunline which is boring.'
You say - 'It's still powerful!'

You notice the disconnect? At no point do we say the Codex isn't powerful, or lacks powerful units/combinations. What we're actually saying is that we're dissapointed with the direction the Codex has taken. Power is secondary if the Codex is boring (just look at the current 'Chaos' Codex - a perfectly servicable list with many great builds... all utterly drab and lifeless in comparison to the previous Chaos Codex, the real one).

It doesn't matter if the Codex contains the best list ever and it wipes your opponent off the table on Turn 1 if that same list is boring and filled with arbitrary restrictions. If the 'flavour' units and options are costed so badly (Ogryn, Stormtroopers, Punisher) or nerfed to the point where they're not useful (Nerfhound, Noxes), then that skews everyone towards a similar sort of build - and it's the same build we've been playing for 15 years - gun line w/tanks. The last Guard Codex, as horrible as the Doctrine System was, opened that up a bit with the different forces you could have. That's gone now, replaced with Orders and blob Platoons.

Power is meaningless if the power is boring to play.

"Nerf" is a pretty distinct word that means "a substantial loss in power." "Nerfhound/Noxes" may be reasonable names cuz they did lose power, but if you mean "made it boring" then you should come up with a different term for it. In the case of "They've nerfed _______" and someone says "It's still powerful" then it wasn't a nerf.

Did anybody actually still *use* plasmaguns? At my FLGS, plasmaguns are the things that take up the spots where meltas should have gone. The "good" players look at the plasmagun and go 'awwww, poor guy's still living in 4thEdLand'.

I love the IG and the plasmagun point increase does not bother me one iota because I never take them. Seriously, I don't see any use for them. It's not a Marine killer if your table has 25% terrain coverage. Autocannons being cheaper, now, that makes me dance with joy, because I spam the gak out of the autocannon.

CKO wrote:In the great words of Rafiki from Lion King, "Look harder"

*****snip****

What did they nerf?

Infantry squads: their cheaper, weapons are cheaper, can merge to get rid of kp issues, and can recieve orders

Vox: five points to recieve ld9 to rerolling an order that will twinlinked our lascannon
(5 points to recieve an order at what ever distance and a reroll lol)

Stormtroopers: old codex vets were better, to ap3 enough said we can make it work

Ogyrns: plain out useless to carrying around a miniature heavybolter and they have toughness 5

your first statement is quite prophetic considering you need to follow your own advice. vox upgrades DON'T give you ld9 and DON'T let you recieve an order at "what ever distance". THAT'S THE POINT!! if they did either in addition to the reroll most of us would think that would be a fair trade off for the leadership bubble we're losing or would be fine as is if the vox were free (like the previous LD bubble). as for ogryns carrying around heavy bolters... last time i looked a heavy bolter had a 36" range (we have 12) and was ap4 (the ogryn gun has either ap6 or none IIRC). if the ogryn gun was that good, I'd gladly field the 15 ogryn models at i have at the rumored points total! it isn't so they're not worth the points. you can field a perfectly serviceable guard army that has a reasonable chance of winning... the problem is (as HBMC stated) is that you it will be quite bland. i have almost 100 infantry in my standard 1850pt guard army so i have no problem fielding mass troops; i also LIKE fielding the wierder ones like ogryns and stormtroopers and rough riders and would prefer not to overpay for the priveledge to do so.

augfubuoy wrote:@ warboss: that picture is my new screen saver!!!!

-A.

thanks. i'll probably work on a cleaned up version of it later tonight as i put that one together in 30 seconds. i think it'll help me cope with my guard angst.

regarding the new "doctrines," one of them is "carapace" related. does this mean i can give all my guard platoons carapace armor again? cuz a 5+ save is pretty much almost every weapon in the game is AP5 or better. i would appreciate clarification.

@The Angry Commissar

According to middle, only the company command squad and veteran squads can upgrade to carapace.

Stormtroopers and servitors come with carapace as their base armor.

The Angry Commissar wrote:regarding the new "doctrines," one of them is "carapace" related. does this mean i can give all my guard platoons carapace armor again? cuz a 5+ save is pretty much almost every weapon in the game is AP5 or better. i would appreciate clarification.

There are no new Doctrines.

You can have an all Carapace army, though. Company Comand Squads can purchase Carapace Armour, as can Primaris Psykers and Commissar Lords. In addition, Veterans (which are a Troops choice) may purchase Carapace Armour. Storm Troopers also wear Carapace Armour.

No, you cannot have Platoons equipped with Carapace Armour.

on a rare somewhat positive note about this codex, i did notice some good about the plain valkryie tonight. although some may disagree, the 30 point rocket pod upgrades might be worth it as they are technically defensive weapons (str4). so even if you move 12" you'll be able to fire both the multilaser and the rocket pods. i think i'll pay for both the pods and the HB and use it in an infantry support role after dropping off my stormtroopers. the valk is tempting but i've got enough antiarmor in my infantry.

warboss wrote:

CKO wrote:In the great words of Rafiki from Lion King, "Look harder"

*****snip****

What did they nerf?

Infantry squads: their cheaper, weapons are cheaper, can merge to get rid of kp issues, and can recieve orders

Vox: five points to recieve ld9 to rerolling an order that will twinlinked our lascannon
(5 points to recieve an order at what ever distance and a reroll lol)

Stormtroopers: old codex vets were better, to ap3 enough said we can make it work

Ogyrns: plain out useless to carrying around a miniature heavybolter and they have toughness 5

your first statement is quite prophetic considering you need to follow your own advice. vox upgrades DON'T give you ld9 and DON'T let you recieve an order at "what ever distance". THAT'S THE POINT!! if they did either in addition to the reroll most of us would think that would be a fair trade off for the leadership bubble we're losing or would be fine as is if the vox were free (like the previous LD bubble). as for ogryns carrying around heavy bolters... last time i looked a heavy bolter had a 36" range (we have 12) and was ap4 (the ogryn gun has either ap6 or none IIRC). if the ogryn gun was that good, I'd gladly field the 15 ogryn models at i have at the rumored points total! it isn't so they're not worth the points. you can field a perfectly serviceable guard army that has a reasonable chance of winning... the problem is (as HBMC stated) is that you it will be quite bland. i have almost 100 infantry in my standard 1850pt guard army so i have no problem fielding mass troops; i also LIKE fielding the wierder ones like ogryns and stormtroopers and rough riders and would prefer not to overpay for the priveledge to do so.

augfubuoy wrote:@ warboss: that picture is my new screen saver!!!!

-A.

thanks. i'll probably work on a cleaned up version of it later tonight as i put that one together in 30 seconds. i think it'll help me cope with my guard angst.

You did not understand my post I was laughing at the idea that people thought that they could use the orders anywhere on the table and also get a reroll all for five points once more "Look Harder". We will never be able to play the most expensive thing and win thats for marine players(no offense). Instead we have units that cost alot of points that we have to put in the right situation inorder to do alot of damage.

Imperial Guard is not boring and if it is sale your stuff on ebay, I know thats harsh but complaining over an ability that will allow us to shoot god knows how many str 3 shots when all it did in the old codex was increase our ld by 1 or 2. No one used voxes (let me correct that) no serious tournament list used voxes. Voxes will become mandatory for merged squads I have to make sure i get to shoot 54 str 3 shots not 36.

warboss wrote:on a rare somewhat positive note about this codex, i did notice some good about the plain valkryie tonight. although some may disagree, the 30 point rocket pod upgrades might be worth it as they are technically defensive weapons (str4). so even if you move 12" you'll be able to fire both the multilaser and the rocket pods. i think i'll pay for both the pods and the HB and use it in an infantry support role after dropping off my stormtroopers. the valk is tempting but i've got enough antiarmor in my infantry.

I agree about the "crunchy goodness" of the rocket pods, but I won't use the HB upgrade since I don't think the HBs will fire very often.

In your last sentence, I think you meant to write "Vendetta" rather than "valk".

"i think i'll pay for both the pods and the HB and use it in an infantry support role after dropping off my stormtroopers."

while part of me agrees with you, that's almost 3 Chimeras worth of points, too. just a thought.

My take on the vox issue is that regardless of power level it is a ridiculous rule. It's a radio that only works within shouting distance. Lieutenants can't shout as loud as Captains, so their radios have shorter range. Their vox only works within a literal stone's throw away - his vox caster's range is the same as a demo charge's. Ursarkar Creed appears to have been an opera singer before becoming a general. He can be heard clearly from twice as far away as a mere captain and four times as far as a lieutenant. His shouting is so loud it extends the range of his command squad's radio.

A vox caster is supposed to be for communicating at long distances. That is no longer what it does. It's like finding out lasguns are no longer rapid fire 24" s3 ap-, but instead now count as power weapons. Not saying that isn't powerful, but it makes no sense whatsoever.

JB wrote:

warboss wrote:on a rare somewhat positive note about this codex, i did notice some good about the plain valkryie tonight. although some may disagree, the 30 point rocket pod upgrades might be worth it as they are technically defensive weapons (str4). so even if you move 12" you'll be able to fire both the multilaser and the rocket pods. i think i'll pay for both the pods and the HB and use it in an infantry support role after dropping off my stormtroopers. the valk is tempting but i've got enough antiarmor in my infantry.

I agree about the "crunchy goodness" of the rocket pods, but I won't use the HB upgrade since I don't think the HBs will fire very often.

In your last sentence, I think you meant to write "Vendetta" rather than "valk".

if they truly are 10 points for the pair, i'll take them. if they kill one or two infantry the entire game they've paid for themselves.

Can people please stop saying orders are free? They are not free, you are just forced to buy them via HQ squads.

I still can't wrap my head around the vox issue (combined with everything else). Its not good for the gameplay , its not good for selling models, what rationalization could there be?

Well at least the Hellhound is not as bad as I thought it would be

If you can place the narrow end of the template anywhere up to 12" and then place the wide end anywhere beyond that, then your effective range is pretty far
Add in the fact that it's a fast vehicle and no more partial hits, and I may still actually take it.

You guys crack me up with the vox discussion. Is GW's decision to do it this way stupid? Yeah. But frankly, it just means that the way toward the power-build is clearer.

We can all agree that the loss of the 5-man Vet Squad sucks, right? But what if we're told that our 5-man Vet Squad just has a different name? And, yeah, they've lost the ability to deep strike or infiltrate, but instead for 5 points more, you've got different abilities that you can use each turn if you can pass a leadership test. And for another 5, you can re-roll that if you fail.

Come on, folks. Let's start to evolve with this! Yes, there are some frickin' dumb rules in this set. But how can we use what they've given us? I mean, what were HSOs and Command Squads used for in the last codex? Glorified special weapon squads where you could have 4 flamers. Ok, so you used the leadership bubble, too. But that was a lot less useful for a drop army.

In the new codex, CCSs fill the slot that Vet Squads did previously. And don't expect them to give anyone else orders. Just have them give themselves orders. You say "That doesn't make sense from a fluff perspective!" feth fluff at this point. How much fluff-sense did the playable armies at the end of the last codex's lifespan make? Not really a whole lot if you really think about it.

I'm not trying to be an apologist for GW or a fanboy. But I'm at the point now where I'm looking at how best to use and abuse these rules rather than just hurt my brain trying to understand why GW didn't put together a better ruleset.

Should I use this juncture to point out that your sig, DBM, has a quote from someone called 'Nerf_IG'. I find that amusing.

warboss wrote:

JB wrote:I agree about the "crunchy goodness" of the rocket pods, but I won't use the HB upgrade since I don't think the HBs will fire very often.

if they truly are 10 points for the pair, i'll take them. if they kill one or two infantry the entire game they've paid for themselves.

They are indeed 10 points.

Each?

Has anyone seen a point value for the company standard?

H.B.M.C. wrote:Each?

For the pair.

Edit: read from the Codex by the way.

Her Majesty's Buxom Commissar wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Each?

For the pair.

Edit: read from the Codex by the way.

Not bad at all.

Nice pair BTW lol

I'm still holding out hope for the vox, and just got some Ogryns yesterday. Hooray for head-in-the-sand purchases!

Meh, all this doom and gloom before the book is even out!

C'mon people, Obama won, the future's bright, the new IG will PWN Spaz Mariens! ... ahem... "HUUURR!"

Couple of questions at anybody who can answer.

First, this comes from my understanding of the actual fluff and from looking at the models. Weren't voxes actually a glorified loud speaker system as opposed to being radios?
If so, doesn't that make the models more WYSIWYG?

If they weren't then please disregard my question. It just seems that I read that somewhere.

If it is so then they made rules to match the fluff. It is a nerfing but in this case it would make sense. Could someone please clarify this for me.


Second, Did the Hellhound actually get nerfed? From what middle said it seemed they didn't.

The way I've seen them played in this book is that there is a 24" range and any models under a part of the template beyond 24" doesn't count. This made it a firm 24"range. with 6" movement it became 30" effective range.

From what middle said, the small part of the template is placed at the 12"mark with the 8" of flame temp extending past. This makes for up to 20" range before you count 12" movement from fast vehicle. This seem to give almost a 31"-32"" effective range.

Were the Hellhounds being played wrong and they really had an effective range of up to 37"-38"?
Or are they not really nerfed?

Unless the enemy squad is in a line going towards you, the new method of hellhound flame template placement isn't as good. Still, it is not as bad as it seemed at first. On the other hand valk/vendettas seem a lot better for the points.

focusedfire wrote:First, this comes from my understanding of the actual fluff and from looking at the models. Weren't voxes actually a glorified loud speaker system as opposed to being radios?
If so, doesn't that make the models more WYSIWYG?

Ever since the first Vox was introduced the Guard - back when it was called the Comm-Link - it has been a radio. It was used to call in off-table bombardments. The first models even had little WWII-esqe phones that came from the backpacks. This changed to Vietnam radio packs with the plastic Catachans, and then to the full multi-spectrum array with dual antenna and integrated radio-headset-mouthpiece helmet.

They are not and have never been loudspeakers, and if they suddenly were, it wouldn't make them WYSIWYG because they are already WYSIWYG.

If they weren't then please disregard my question. It just seems that I read that somewhere.

If it is so then they made rules to match the fluff. It is a nerfing but in this case it would make sense. Could someone please clarify this for me.

focusedfire wrote:Second, Did the Hellhound actually get nerfed? From what middle said it seemed they didn't.

Previous Hellhound:
6" Move + 24" Range = 30" effective range.

New Hellhound:
12" Move + 12" Range + 8"+/- Template = 32" effective range.

So it gained 2", but only if the template is ram-rod straight, facing in the same direction of the tank. You move it at any angle and you begin to lose inches. You turn it 45 degrees or thereabouts and your range shrinks by 4" (+/- ), and suddenly you have less effective range than the old Hellhound.

But here's the kicker:

Now it has to be closer in order to shoot (12" away rather than 24" away), and therefore it will be easier to assault, and that wonderful AV12 you pay for on the sides will count for nothing. And the tank perplexingly it went up in price.

So, to do the math:

Shorter Ranged Gun + More Vulnerable to HTH Attacks because of this + Increased Price + Vendetta is the same cost = Nerfhound.

Next question.

Does it really have to be within 12 " to shoot?

Does there have to be a model at that magical 12" point or can it just lay the template tip down at 12" and fry the guys that are 13" to 20" away?

BTW thank for the clarifications.

focusedfire wrote:Couple of questions at anybody who can answer.

First, this comes from my understanding of the actual fluff and from looking at the models. Weren't voxes actually a glorified loud speaker system as opposed to being radios?
If so, doesn't that make the models more WYSIWYG?

If they weren't then please disregard my question. It just seems that I read that somewhere.

If it is so then they made rules to match the fluff. It is a nerfing but in this case it would make sense. Could someone please clarify this for me.

Nope, wrong. The vox-toting models (and corresponding fluff) definitely places them in the "battlefield radio" category.

Second, Did the Hellhound actually get nerfed? From what middle said it seemed they didn't.

The way I've seen them played in this book is that there is a 24" range and any models under a part of the template beyond 24" doesn't count. This made it a firm 24"range. with 6" movement it became 30" effective range.

From what middle said, the small part of the template is placed at the 12"mark with the 8" of flame temp extending past. This makes for up to 20" range before you count 12" movement from fast vehicle. This seem to give almost a 31"-32"" effective range.

Were the Hellhounds being played wrong and they really had an effective range of up to 37"-38"?
Or are they not really nerfed?

Old Hellhound: Drive 6", and place the template anywhere inside 24". Max range: 30". Effective range: 30".
New Hellhound: Drive 12", and place the template starting inside 12". Max range: 32". Effective range: ?". (Hard to define effective range - the template is effectively on a fixed pivot point at 12" from the vehicle.)

Two major "nerf" points: first, the new hellhound has to get closer to the enemy to fire (essentially, it has to drive into melta range). Second, the old hellhound can lay down a horizontal band of fire at the 24" mark; the new hellhound cannot offer anything like the same coverage at longer ranges.

I agree with what you are saying hbmc but I beg to differ about the nerf. The hellhound IS easier to kill but it may finally be a reliable tool in my army. Scarabs? Dead, no 50% chance to hit them... My hellhounds always missed bu some cruel stroke of fate and always managed to wound 1-2 models. Eldar rangers? Deader than dead. Guardsmen? OMFdead. ratlings, scout marines, crap, the thing will actually kill things now. the flame template won't miss anymore! HOORAY!!! also the thing will block los when it shocks forward to deliver it's 1 shot fireball o' doom on pesky squads in cover. it's wrecked chassis will continue to provide tactically placed cover so long as it does not ka-boom. or if you hold it back in your tank line it will be a fire magnet, which can be a good thing. or you can hide it behind your tank line and 12" forward and puke flame on some jerks when they start getting close! I've made these points before but he fact that it is a fast vehicle alone makes me grin from ear to ear due to all the interesting tactics I get to use it for. Mainly i will use it to kill scarabs though, little buggers...

focusedfire wrote:First, this comes from my understanding of the actual fluff and from looking at the models. Weren't voxes actually a glorified loud speaker system as opposed to being radios?
If so, doesn't that make the models more WYSIWYG?

If they weren't then please disregard my question. It just seems that I read that somewhere.

If it is so then they made rules to match the fluff. It is a nerfing but in this case it would make sense. Could someone please clarify this for me.

I always understood the vox to be a radio because the model has antennas you need a vox at the receiving end. In the current codex, under master vox "The vox-caster attached to the army's Command HQ is the hub of all communications into, through, and out of the Company. It can be upgraded to a master-vox, a far more sophisticated version capable of maintaining several channels simultaneously." Transmitting messages out of the Company with a loudspeeker would be a tad impractical, and maintaining multiple several simultaneous channels on a loudspeeker is just looney.


Even if the vox really were a loudspeeker its rules should include extending the command radius because loudspeakers allow your voice to be heard over longer distances. And there would be no need to have a vox operator at the receiving end because you don't need to carry special equipment to hear loud noises.

and simply shouting orders through a loudspeaker sounds tactically flawed...

Kungfuhustler wrote:and simply shouting orders through a loudspeaker sounds tactically flawed...

Thats what makes it sound like something the IG would do.

Seriously, thanks for the info guys. This does make me wonder about the rumor a while back of some squads being able to give their own orders. Did that rumor ever pan out or no?

The hellhound was not reliable before? It was AWESOME last codex! I thought it was 5 to 10 points overpriced though.

The only saving grace now is that it moves fast, so that if it goes over 6" the enemy will need 6's to hit it in HtH, which makes it a lot more survivable than it is now. Still sucks on the range loss.

The auto hitting template though, it made of sweet dreams and butterflies.

The problem with that Reecius being that now you need to keep moving fast - both to stay in range and to stay alive. And you're paying more points for the privilege. And (again) you're taking up an FA slot, something that can be better taken up by the Fast Skimmer w/Scout that can Transport 12 models has the same armour yet has 3 TL-Lascannons and costs the same as a Hellhound. And (again again!) the Leman Russ Eradicator's Nova Cannon has three times the (base) range of the Hellhound, has the same Strength, AP, and ignores cover saves, and has AV14 to boot (and doesn't take up the FA slot you should be filling with a Vendy).

True.

But then the quandry of my three painted hellhounds, two of which are the forgeworld varients!

Reecius wrote:But then the quandry of my three painted hellhounds, two of which are the forgeworld varients!

Welcome to the Games Workshop Hobby.

Here is the question.

Which is better mobile anti horde?

Hellhound (130)
or
Valk w/ S4 missile pods (110?)

Both can move 12" and unleash a good amount of anti horde.

But Valk is cheaper, can move 24" if needed, and can transport troops.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Reecius wrote:But then the quandry of my three painted hellhounds, two of which are the forgeworld varients!

Welcome to the Games Workshop Hobby.

Hahaha, touche my good man!

You would think after nearly a decade and a half of this hobby, I would learn not to be surprised by things like this.

CKO wrote:Ogyrns: plain out useless to carrying around a miniature heavybolter and they have toughness 5

I know you intended this as sarcasm, but it's also true at face value. Even with Toughness 5 and miniature heavy bolters, ogryns are useless. Why? Because they cost 40 points each.

sourclams wrote:Did anybody actually still *use* plasmaguns? At my FLGS, plasmaguns are the things that take up the spots where meltas should have gone. The "good" players look at the plasmagun and go 'awwww, poor guy's still living in 4thEdLand'.

Sounds like the good players at your FLGS are condescending asses.

Yes, agreed, and pissed that I have to agree.

For less points than 5 Ogryn, you can get 5 T.Hammer termies.

Which is better?

Ogryns will be cool for friendly games, they will be good against horde infantry (but what isn't?) and that is about it. If I use them in even a semi competitive game, they will be counts as termies. But even then I probably wont use them.

I think the new Hellhound is Better then the old one and can compete quite will with both the Eradicator and Vendetta. The Vendetta has to slow down to fully use it's three twin linked Las Cannons, plus it's super tall flight stand give most everything on the table LOS to it, Vs. the Hellhound that wants to move at high speeds and has a weapon that ignores cover saves and auto hits. The Eradicator is pretty cool, but is about an Ogryn more expensive, it's cannon can miss the target and can't move 18" to contest a Objective on the last turn. Both the Vendetta and Eradicator are great vehicles but each fill different roles then the Hellhound. If your running Gun line Guard, the Eradicator might be getter then the hellhound because of it's other guns and high armor. 9 Vendettas are not going to win you games against infantry hordes, but Hellhounds will. If your running a mech list, I think a few hellhounds would counter infantry nicely, as CC or close range infantry is now the biggest threat to armor in the game (power fists to rear armor and melta guns). I can't see how being a Fast Vehicle is now worse then before or that the Flamer auto hits as opposed to before where is was a big dice fest half the time and you sometimes ended up only getting a few hits in. Additionally, Ignoring cover is a much more powerful ability then it was when the last Guard codex was released, and as such I'm not surprised at a raise in price.

two hellhounds flying forward 12", turning sideways and roasting a horde of orks will keep the claws at bay for another turn at least.

*edit: and if they are in the path of nob bikers (which they may inflict a wound or 2 on) they will force the things to drive around them, stopping them from boosting and denying their (boost) coversave to the rest of your force when they next have to move. In a perfect game they go around them, don't have the range to assault and your psyker chorus pos out of a chimera (SURPRISE!) and wacks them for -8 ld and you whack em' with sniper fire for the rest of the game.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Clearly you need to re-read what has got people's ire in this situation. They're not complaining about 'orders' or 'free abilities', nor has anyone claimed that orders have been 'nerfed'. People are annoying at the idea of voxes just being a re-roll, and somehow a command squad and an infantry squad both have to have a radio when standing 6 meters apart from one another. As was said, it's a Vox Nerf - hereafter, Nox - and while 5 points in an amoeba platoon works, not everyone wants to put their squads into amorphus blobs.

I completely and strongly disagree with that - it must be called a Vorf.

augfubuoy wrote:
I mean, we (at least I do) get our hopes up for this new codex after all of this hype about how awesome it would be...

You forget that there is no way to boost Ogryn Ld with a commissar (that isn't an IC and doesn't cost ~100 points). I was hell-bent on using a unit just because, thinking, 'Oh well, stubborn Ld 9 isn't so bad' but no.

CKO wrote:The new codex isnt holy water its not going to somehow make all our problems disappear. There are so many nasty things we can do with this new codex its not funny.

You still do not understand. The new codex could have easily solved all the ridiculous problems. It didn't. There are so many absurd aspects that it isn't funny.

Why anyone would defend those choices is beyond comprehension. Perhaps he likes to be part of his group. Or perhaps it is human nature to resist comprehension even in the face of plain evidence.

Let's face it everyone, this book makes little sense, is full of stuff we won't use and akward rules abound. It is definitely a guard codex.

On the subject of voxes:
In the BBC series Blackadder the 3rd with R. Atkinson the (prince) Blackadder entertains General Wellington:
B: I must congratulate you sir for your tactical acumen and ingenious leadership!
W: Why's that sir?
B: Because you have used them against that fiend Bonapart!
W: I did no such thing sir! I just shouted!
B: So no tactical acumen or inspiring Leadership?
W: Oh no Sir! The British Army is just shouting, shouting and more shouting!

And imho the fluff behind the new voxes is just idiotic!

I'm beginning to feel like a misinformed pessimist by now... I guess my voxes will just have to be guys with shouter tubes... The main problem I see is that alot of the changes are either prohbitively expensive or just plain dumb. 9 Russes? Sure, if you play apoc-level, where you can take them anyway. Stormies? Same. Ogryn? Too expensive even for apoc...

The hellhound hasn't been nerfed IMO, if your opponent wants to hit him in cc he needs sixes, and if he wants to use his meltas for a hellhound your important stuff (valks, chimeras) remain intact, allowing you to score objectives.

I really liked the orders system when I heard of it at first, but right now I'd rather prefer the old leadership bubble. The psyker squads also sound interesting.

So, anyone thinking about the most effective setup?

My guess is:

- CCS in chimera + advisors
- maybe a primaris if he can take a psychic hood
- 2 psyker squads in chimera
- 3+ vet squads in chimera (fill out tillpoints limit has been reached, maybe include one with plasma?)
- 2 valks, carrying whatever tickles your fancy
- 2 vendettas
- 2 hellhound
- 3 russes


It'll have lots of anti armour (melta vets, venedttas), so the enemy's tanks can be taken out real quick, troop-killing power with hellhounds, valks and russes. In addition, you can use the cimera to box in dangerous cc troops or block LOS; if you have the chimere move 12", it'll be hard to take out in cc AND if it gets destroyed it'll still be in the way. It still has quite a few KPS, but quite a few are hard to get. since the skimmer can contest pretty much any objective and you have 4 +2 fast vehicles... Also, note that my lists barely include plasmas, sinc there are few 2+ save models I can't just melta, lascannon or run away from, countering the points increase.


It is a boring list though... And the russes don't look all that necessary, while they used to be the guard mainstay.

Some other options:
- outflanking sentinels, meaning the new and heavier variant won't be used.
- 1 blob platoon with commissar, so your opponent has a clear target to go for.
- give the vets flamers (waste of BS4 I know), for some sister-like drive-by flaming, and use melta-hounds.
- minimum storm trooper choice IF their missions are good enough; the first turn pinning + a psyker sqaud has some potential.
- Any kind of pinning weapon to complement the psyker suads. Still, causing 25% casualties seems like the way to go, since they then fall back, have a hard time rallying with their lowered Ld, and can be herded off-table by all the fast vehicles.
- Tossing in some griffons instead of a russ.

Kungfuhustler wrote:well, the vox thing is stupid. In fact I am seeing idiocy akin to twin lash and/or dark eldar mandrakes sprinkled all throughout this game. GW are a bunch of idiots with absolutely no idea how to write a good game in the oppinion of a good friend of mine who just put his orks up for sale today and I am beginning to agree with him. If they were capable of releasing a new wave of codex withing a 1 year period of one another and had the sense to playtest them ALL against each other it might help. Look at Magic: The gathering, where a panel of 1000's of players review and decide each card that is in development and playtest it thouroughly. Magic has also figured out how to write a core rule book that is free of all ambiguity, how hard could that be? I guess it just proves that American game designers are intrinsically smarter than british game designers due, to some kind of accident in the warp of course.

Well, here americans viewed very differently... Huge people gorging on fast food, knowing about the world nothing...

where is that? Fantasyland? Okay, we do have some fatties.

ITT: MY COUNTRY IS BETTER THAN YOUR COUNTRY


Personally I'm just glad I don't often play games. Just means I can collect a cool-looking fluffy guard army and not worry about how it'd perform.

Kungfuhustler wrote:two hellhounds flying forward 12", turning sideways and roasting a horde of orks will keep the claws at bay for another turn at least.

*edit: and if they are in the path of nob bikers (which they may inflict a wound or 2 on) they will force the things to drive around them, stopping them from boosting and denying their (boost) coversave to the rest of your force when they next have to move. In a perfect game they go around them, don't have the range to assault and your psyker chorus pos out of a chimera (SURPRISE!) and wacks them for -8 ld and you whack em' with sniper fire for the rest of the game.

Why would they force them to go around instead of charging the HH themselves? Even hitting on 6's only, they are bound to inflict serious damage. In the same vein, why does moving in a different direction deny them a cover save? What would stop them from turbo-boosting?

CommissarKhaine wrote:
The hellhound hasn't been nerfed IMO, if your opponent wants to hit him in cc he needs sixes, and if he wants to use his meltas for a hellhound your important stuff (valks, chimeras) remain intact, allowing you to score objectives.

Who's to say my HH aren't amongst the important stuff? Even in objective-based games, killing stuff is important. Yes, they have been nerfed to some extent. Hitting them on 6's isn't better than not hitting them at all because they're out of charge range.

- 2 psyker squads in chimera

Don't hold your breath that they can get Chims in the first place. I bet they will have to requisition some in the midst of a battle. Oh, and driving them around might be a problem if it turns out that their shooting abilities are heavy.

- give the vets flamers (waste of BS4 I know), for some sister-like drive-by flaming

"Drive-by" implies that they stay in the transport, and in that case they won't be able to move >6" and shoot.

Kungfuhustler wrote:where is that? Fantasyland? Okay, we do have some fatties.

off
Yepp, natives thinks that here... I always try to explain but I always end giving it up. Hungarians can be very stupid sometimes... (Guess what country stand by the germans to the end in WWII?. Yupp its us... ).
on

I must use hellhound, because one tyranid player. He likes to take lots of gaunts.

BoxANT wrote:
"Here is the question.

Which is better mobile anti horde?

Hellhound (130)
or
Valk w/ S4 missile pods (110?)

Both can move 12" and unleash a good amount of anti horde.

But Valk is cheaper, can move 24" if needed, and can transport troops. "

here's what middle reported:
"Valkrie. 1-3. 100 bang on. transport 12. No Ogryns ( They don't like the dark and i'm guessing they don't like flying either. ). MLAser. 2 Hellstrikes ( S8 Ap3 Ordnance. NO blast. One use only ). Searchlight. Extra armour. DeepStrike. Scout. MLaser can be a lascannon for 15. Swap both Hellstrikes for 2 multiple missile pods 30pts ( S4 Ap6 Heavy 1 Large blast ). +Pair of "sponson" HB's 10. "

so that jumps the price for the Valk to 140 w/ missle pods and heavy bolters. just FYI. depending on how the disembarking/embarking is handled will help decide my opinion on the Valk.

i think the biggest Nerffing of the Nerfhound was jumping it to 130!

A few more random thoughts:

In all fairness to Arby, the whole Valkyrie mounted army prospect is a new archtype. True it replaces the old drop troops archetype, but I predict that six veteran squads in vendettas/valkyries will be a neat build.

In fact, veterans as troops opens a lot of doors that even the old book didn't quite allow. True, they can't take +1 WS or camo cloaks anymore, but aren't six veteran squads more representative of a Tanith force than any number of upgraded platoons? Elysians, Tanith, Death world vets, etc all benefit from these new veterans.

In many ways, Vets might make the basic platoon obsolete in competitive play. We all know that long range anti-tank isn't what it used to be, although taking a platoon to load up on Heavy bolter heavy weapon squads or demo charge laden SWSs will be a neat option.

I would contend that the hellhound isn't nerfed, it's just overcosted. The old hellhound was a decent unit, I never liked it as much as most IG players, but I think even it's apologists would agree that it was overcosted for what it did, but bringing more AV12 into the army helped dilute enemy anti-tank. The new HH trades some range (we don't really know how much) for more speed, more killing power, and the ability to squadron up. That it does so for a point increase, rather than decrease makes it woefully overcosted, but it's still pretty good at what it's designed to do. Of course, Heavy Tank squadrons make it's role less "hey it's another tank" and more "why didn't you just take another LRBT for 30pts more?"

The actual gunline elements of the IG did get nastier. Orders aren't free, they're built into the cost of both Command squads and platoons (just like frag grenades and vet sarges), and compensate for the loss of Leadership. Of course, if 30pts, PCS are a steal... Orders isn't going to be something you can build an army around, they're a little too unreliable when most useful (on SWS and HWS) and too little impact on basic squads. They'll be nice, and probably come through, but they're not going to turn the IG into something awesome.

As far as the gunline, though, the basic squad went down in cost, as did the autocannon and the lascannon. The price bump in plasma is regrettable but foreseeable, and plasma will still be the special weapon of choice for line squads. A chance was lost to make the GL decent (I've lobbied hard for simply giving it 2 shots), but to no avail. If you want a decent ranged weapon to match with a heavy, it's pretty much the plasma gun all the time.

Heavy weapon squads are now more fragile, in two ways. Anything S6 or above squishes a team, and IG lose a Heavy weapon every two wounds, instead of after 4 wounds total. To compensate, they're cheaper, they're troops, and they're plentiful. Lascannon heavy anti-tank squads are the obvious choice, but as we all know, lascannons aren't that good anymore. Expect to see autocannon squads for 75pts dominate the selections. Lots of shots, good against transports and dreadnoughts, decent against entrenched infantry, and all for dirt cheap.

The Chimera got cheaper, and while mechanized lists are still highly possible, I think there will be two major uses: bunkers for command squads, and cheap transports for suicide command squads.

Sentinels got better. Probably not by enough to really be a factor, but it's nice that they didn't get worse...

With lumbering behemoth, there's actually a tough call to be made: do you buy sponson weapons or a hull lascannon to use it, or do you keep your tanks cheap and rely solely on the turret? For +15pts, the lascannon really seems too pricey, but three heavy bolters on top of a battle cannon for 170pts isn't bad. I guess we see now why Plasma cannons are 40pts. It's still too expensive, but at least it's closer.

Overall, the pricing in this codex strikes me as very much the result of a "round up" mentality. Too many things look just a little overcosted for my tastes, it makes me think that when they playtested, any value was simply rounded up to the nearest multiple of five. That's ok, but when you do that for dozens of squads and upgrades across an army, those points add up. Exhibit A for this theory is clearly the power weapon, admittedly pretty good at 5pts, very meh at 10. Carapace for the commissar lord is 10pts? Really? The chimera would have been aggressively priced (not unlike the current razorback) at 50pts, but is 55 in the new book. The basic squad went down 10pts and gained new gear, I'd argue that they could have dropped the squad to 40, +5 with a vet and frags aren't worth anything on an IG squad, but 50pts is what the new codex has. Ratlings at 10pts are still blah, the Hellhound could have drop 10pts instead of going up, and the sentinel price drop was nice, until you realize that heavy flamers actually went up in cost. HBMC nicknamed the author of this book Arby, for arbitrary, but I think I'm going to try to dub this book Codex: Rounded Up.

Polonius wrote: HBMC nicknamed the author of this book Arby, for arbitrary, but I think I'm going to try to dub this book Codex: Rounded Up.

I can get behind that movement. Stormies + Ogryns went up in points far more then what would be a fair number for them. Armies of Grenadiers/Storm Troopers won't be seen and you would be hard pressed to see more then a squad in any competitive list.

This codex is starting to look one dimensional. IG Generals only have one way to play. Form a gun line and pound the foe into the earth with Shell and Las fire. I know this is the arch-type of the IG but I lament the loss of the flexibility the old codex provided. So there is only one way to play now but the other problem is all the IG lists are going to look the same.

Who isn't going to include at least 2 Vendettas? 4 Russ Varients?

They made the Vendetta dirt cheap and everything else over priced. Arby forgot to use the GW math on the Vendetta and its to cheap for what it does to not be fielded.

Thimn wrote:

Polonius wrote: HBMC nicknamed the author of this book Arby, for arbitrary, but I think I'm going to try to dub this book Codex: Rounded Up.

I can get behind that movement. Stormies + Ogryns went up in points far more then what would be a fair number for them. Armies of Grenadiers/Storm Troopers won't be seen and you would be hard pressed to see more then a squad in any competitive list.

This codex is starting to look one dimensional. IG Generals only have one way to play. Form a gun line and pound the foe into the earth with Shell and Las fire. I know this is the arch-type of the IG but I lament the loss of the flexibility the old codex provided. So there is only one way to play now but the other problem is all the IG lists are going to look the same.

Who isn't going to include at least 2 Vendettas? 4 Russ Varients?

They made the Vendetta dirt cheap and everything else over priced. Arby forgot to use the GW math on the Vendetta and its to cheap for what it does to not be fielded.

Call me cynical but:

GW release a nice shiny new flyer kit for £35 ish and then make it indispensable in the new codex - say it isn't so....

Do we expect to see a HH/DD/BW kit in release 2....and a kit for all the LRBT variants? And these won't get any cheaper, will they?

hmmmm....

I don't think guard will be one dimensional. I think there are two solid builds, plus the hybrid between the two.

there is straight up, old school gunline with tanks and men.

there is new wave Air Cav, with vets in Vendettas/Valkyries.

there is also neo-mechanized, with tanks, vets in chimeras, vets in Valks, etc.

I'd also point out that there are handful of "highly decent" units in these rumors, things like Sentinels, Rough riders, the psychic choir, even ratlings that while they may not play well to a tournament build, can and will add flavor to casual play or battleforce style army.

alarmingrick wrote:

here's what middle reported:
"Valkrie. 1-3. 100 bang on. transport 12. No Ogryns ( They don't like the dark and i'm guessing they don't like flying either. ). MLAser. 2 Hellstrikes ( S8 Ap3 Ordnance. NO blast. One use only ). Searchlight. Extra armour. DeepStrike. Scout. MLaser can be a lascannon for 15. Swap both Hellstrikes for 2 multiple missile pods 30pts ( S4 Ap6 Heavy 1 Large blast ). +Pair of "sponson" HB's 10. "

so that jumps the price for the Valk to 140 w/ missle pods and heavy bolters. just FYI. depending on how the disembarking/embarking is handled will help decide my opinion on the Valk.

Wait a minute, are rocket pods two separate large blasts? Even at S4, that's going to do some damage. Heck, thanks to being S4 the valk can move 12" and shoot both plus the laser.

I think that's going to be the argument for the valk over the vendetta: it can move and shoot all of it's weapons. it's like why people prefer the Land Raider crusader even though it gives up two lascannons (although a twin AC is pretty choice as a replacement).

Polonius wrote:I don't think guard will be one dimensional. I think there are two solid builds, plus the hybrid between the two.

there is straight up, old school gunline with tanks and men.

there is new wave Air Cav, with vets in Vendettas/Valkyries.

there is also neo-mechanized, with tanks, vets in chimeras, vets in Valks, etc.

I'd also point out that there are handful of "highly decent" units in these rumors, things like Sentinels, Rough riders, the psychic choir, even ratlings that while they may not play well to a tournament build, can and will add flavor to casual play or battleforce style army.

Alas, I think there's a good possibility the squadron rules for the Valk/Vend are going to ultimately keep Air Cav as an army from becoming a truly competitive list. Having a couple of them in a list may be fine, but building the entire army around it will tend to fall flat on its face as a result of the damage and coherency rules for squadrons.

That and the crusader means you can disembark and assault...that would be soooooo cool for Valkyrie passengers

BoxANT wrote:Here is the question.

Which is better mobile anti horde?

Hellhound (130)
or
Valk w/ S4 missile pods (110?)

Both can move 12" and unleash a good amount of anti horde.

But Valk is cheaper, can move 24" if needed, and can transport troops.

i've never played with either but i'd probably pick the valk due to the transport capacity and 24" move. that's great for claiming or contesting at the last second. also, the valk with rocket pods is 100 base + 30 for the S4 pods. most people will choose to add the 10pt dual HB sponsons (door gunners) since they're so cheap.

warboss wrote:

BoxANT wrote:Here is the question.

Which is better mobile anti horde?

Hellhound (130)
or
Valk w/ S4 missile pods (110?)

Both can move 12" and unleash a good amount of anti horde.

But Valk is cheaper, can move 24" if needed, and can transport troops.

i've never played with either but i'd probably pick the valk due to the transport capacity and 24" move. that's great for claiming or contesting at the last second. also, the valk with rocket pods is 100 base + 30 for the S4 pods. most people will choose to add the 10pt dual HB sponsons (door gunners) since they're so cheap.

And that will mean if you move at 12", you can fire everything, yes?

And drop off troops to shoot as well...

The Air Cav has merit for working but I think the Chimera is going to only be used by Command Squads. I normally run a Mech Guard list and I know the problem to guard tanks is close combat. The Chimera isn't effective in transporting guys because your loose the ability to fire your guns if you want to move 12" just so you can avoid the possibility of getting hit on your rear armor at a 4+.

The Valk sounds promising in the role of actually transporting troops to the hot spots. It can move 12" and fire. It can also scout, move 24", outflank. So why are you purchasing a chimera? To have some extra fire support and to have your Command Squads kept safe from enemy shooting. At least thats what I find useful for them.

CCS + Master of Ordinance + Chimera = 135 points

Keep it still so your advisor can shoot/Your officer to give orders and you end up with a nice firebase.

Konrad Carstein wrote:And that will mean if you move at 12", you can fire everything, yes?

And drop off troops to shoot as well...

yes, but only if you skip the heavy bolter door gunners/sponsons. it's only armed with a multilaser and defensive rocket pods at 130pts so you could move 12", drop of storm troopers without a chance for mishaps, and still fire off a S4 pie plate and a multilaser. OR move 6", drop off stormtroopers safely, and fire the pie plate/multilaser and 2 heavy bolters for 140pts... OR move 24", get a 4+ cover save, fire nothing, and deepstrike stormtroopers (with its inherent mishap chance) on your movement path... lots of variety for around 300-330pts.

I don't think the HB upgrade is going to be taken much. Being as they are probably mounted on the side openings unless you are firing at a squad that is wider than the Valk you'll never get to fire them both in a turn, 10 points for a single HB isn't bad per se, but it's a bit iffy on something that is going to be a huge fire magnet.

And given how important the command squad seems to be in the new Codex to giving orders and such I would be more inclined to turn the Chimera sideways and just sit the command squad behind it. Your opponent can destroy it but on anything other than a 6 it just becomes a wall that still blocks LOS. 5th Ed has made it very rough on the IG in that respect, you really have to work at hiding your command squads now, unless you can merge command squads with normal squads, which would be awesome but I highly doubt that.

People are harping on the HH being nerfed, but nobody is mentioning that with a stubber added, you can move 6" and toss out the template, the HB, and the HS...just like you could in 4th edition. I think the HH will compete with the valk IMHO. I'm looking forward to testing out several builds. I like the fact that I can field some models that people won't readily have available on the day of it's release. My Manticore, Vanquishers, and FW Valks will all see use on May 2.

Capt K

Vaktathi wrote:

Polonius wrote:I don't think guard will be one dimensional. I think there are two solid builds, plus the hybrid between the two.

there is straight up, old school gunline with tanks and men.

there is new wave Air Cav, with vets in Vendettas/Valkyries.

there is also neo-mechanized, with tanks, vets in chimeras, vets in Valks, etc.

I'd also point out that there are handful of "highly decent" units in these rumors, things like Sentinels, Rough riders, the psychic choir, even ratlings that while they may not play well to a tournament build, can and will add flavor to casual play or battleforce style army.

Alas, I think there's a good possibility the squadron rules for the Valk/Vend are going to ultimately keep Air Cav as an army from becoming a truly competitive list. Having a couple of them in a list may be fine, but building the entire army around it will tend to fall flat on its face as a result of the damage and coherency rules for squadrons.

I've thought about that, and here's why I don't think the squadron rules hurt the valks or vendies too much. They'll probably not be a top table list, but armies like drop pods are still a reasonably common sight at tournaments. The Vendettas defintly suffer from the squadron rules, as they'll almost never be moving flat out. Valks, particularly stripped down to be used solely as transports, will often be moving flat out, meaning that immobilized resutls would wreck the thing anyway. As for coherency, IIRC the rule is 4", and the valks are big enough to still allow for some pretty spread out troops when they drop.

I'd agree that keeping them singled up to prevent that is probably the best, and it's not like the rest of the fast attack choices are amazingly good in competition.

10 Vets with 3 meltas mounted in a bare bones valk runs 200pts according to the rumors. That's not a lot of points for a unit with strong shooting, can score, is reasonably durable with AV12, is incredibly fast, can scout, and even has extra armor. Three of those are only 600pts, making it a pretty solid mobile element for an army. Add in 6 leman russes for 750pts, a primaris or Commisar lord for ~100pts, and you fit in under 1500pts. At 1850, you can add vets in chimeras for 155pts per, meaning you can slide two more scoring units with ease.

vonjankmon wrote:I don't think the HB upgrade is going to be taken much. Being as they are probably mounted on the side openings unless you are firing at a squad that is wider than the Valk you'll never get to fire them both in a turn, 10 points for a single HB isn't bad per se, but it's a bit iffy on something that is going to be a huge fire magnet.

And given how important the command squad seems to be in the new Codex to giving orders and such I would be more inclined to turn the Chimera sideways and just sit the command squad behind it. Your opponent can destroy it but on anything other than a 6 it just becomes a wall that still blocks LOS. 5th Ed has made it very rough on the IG in that respect, you really have to work at hiding your command squads now, unless you can merge command squads with normal squads, which would be awesome but I highly doubt that.

i've been calling them jokingly sponsons but in reality i'll be treat them as such (180 degree sponsons). just like with a leman russ, i'll try to line up the valk spine with what ever i'm shooting at. if something is directly in front of the valk, you should be able to get off the multilaser, pods (if bought), and door gunners. as for being a fire magnet, you're right. if they shoot it with anti-infantry heavy weapons (autocannons, heavy bolters, plasma cannons, etc) that means there are fewer HW shooting at the more expensive than the transport infantry i just dropped off below it (and those weapons would have ignored their 4+ armor save). if they shoot lascannons and other anti-tank HW at it that means less shots destroying/stunning/shaking/weapondestroying my much more expensive leman russ tanks that round.

I have a big question - I think.

Is there any wording in the rules that states that both the ordering unit AND the receiving unit must have a vox to ge the re-roll? Or can I just gve them to my squads?

Is there going to be a bit of a 'fear' reaction to?

Are IG opponents going to see Valkyries and think, "Oh, nice shiny new models - it must be good, I must go all out to kill it."

People are familiar with what LRBT and HH do (even though rules have changed and that there are new varinats). But the valkyrie is new. And big.

Well I've already sold off my six Ogryns, 22 Karskins and my standard bearer. Any one want to buy 17 Vox Casters? I'll give you a good price!

Double post

CaptKaruthors wrote:People are harping on the HH being nerfed, but nobody is mentioning that with a stubber added, you can move 6" and toss out the template, the HB, and the HS...just like you could in 4th edition. I think the HH will compete with the valk IMHO. I'm looking forward to testing out several builds. I like the fact that I can field some models that people won't readily have available on the day of it's release. My Manticore, Vanquishers, and FW Valks will all see use on May 2.

Capt K

The hound isn't nerfed, as I argued in a previous post. It's simply too expensive. I like what it does, and what it brings to the IG. At 90pts, it'd be a steal, at 100pts it would be a strong unit. At 130pts, it's almost a leman russ, which has more range and much tougher armor. In a vacuum, it's good. In comparison to the other units around it, it simply has far too high of an opportunity cost for me. I think people will figure how to use it well, as I think being a fast vehicle it can set up some nice shots and really be a hassle to your opponent. The problem is that the rest of your army is going to be hamstrung because you sunk 25 too many points into the hound.

Put it this way, it has to kill 22 Orks to make it's points back. I doubt a HH will survive long enough to do that.

Dexy wrote:Put it this way, it has to kill 22 Orks to make it's points back. I doubt a HH will survive long enough to do that.

Agreed.

But it will also depend on what the wording on the template is. If it means that the narrow end of the template has to be on a model, then unless you somehow manage to destroy a unit outright, you're going to be in assault range next turn. The "saving grace" of only getting hit on 6's in assault won't amount to much if there's still a bunch of enemies left (especially one with a PK or similar).

If however you can fire so that at least part of the template touches something, you could hang back a bit and accept that whilst you might kill less each turn, you may stay alive longer. (This takes no account of other incoming fire of course).

@Dexy, Come on, you can do better then that. "You need to kill 44 Grotz to make your points back". There that's more impressive then ork boyz who are also really cheap. Good thing no one ever takes Lootaz or Stormboyz any more or those might be better targets.

NinjaRay wrote:@Dexy, Come on, you can do better then that. "You need to kill 44 Grotz to make your points back". There that's more impressive then ork boyz who are also really cheap. Good thing no one ever takes Lootaz or Stormboyz any more or those might be better targets.

Well, there's a bit of a low hanging fruit argument to be made against your analysis too. Most ork players take lots of ork boys, and they're a fairly useful rubric for comparing values. We know that if you need to kill 22 boys, we also need to kill about 10 lootas or 11 stormboys. The conversions aren't hard. Additionally, both Lootas and stormboys are able to rip the hound a new one if it doesn't come through huge. If you kill a bunch of storm boys, they'll be in charge range next turn. The HH probably isn't firing again after that.

The crux of the argument is simple: the tank costs a lot, so it needs to kill a lot and/or survive to justify it's cost. The problem is that it has to get close to do any appreciable damage, and that puts it at risk from nearly any unit in the game with any anti-tank ability. That means it gets one shot, probably wont' survive, and thus needs to hit a home run in it's one time to bat to do so. If cheaper, the bar would be lower, and if longer ranged it could probably fire a few more times. As it stands, it's essentially a suicide tank for 20pts less than a Russ or the same price as a Flamer/Autocannon infantry squad.

Meh. I think 3 HH's pouring into a target should conceivably kill it. While they are 20pts. less than a russ, they have better speed than a russ when they need it. The funny thing is that most opponents are always out to close the distance with IG, so really, I don't think you need to move the HH as much until the end game..either to push an opponent off the objective, dash forward to deny, etc. A HH can be lethal if surrounded by 10 man squads with special weapons. Unless the opponent is going to direct any long range attacks at it...you shouldn't have to fear it getting assaulted. YMMV. I have 3 and fully intend to field all 3 as a squadron. The damage they can inflict is ridiculous.

Capt K

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:

Kungfuhustler wrote:two hellhounds flying forward 12", turning sideways and roasting a horde of orks will keep the claws at bay for another turn at least.

*edit: and if they are in the path of nob bikers (which they may inflict a wound or 2 on) they will force the things to drive around them, stopping them from boosting and denying their (boost) coversave to the rest of your force when they next have to move. In a perfect game they go around them, don't have the range to assault and your psyker chorus pos out of a chimera (SURPRISE!) and wacks them for -8 ld and you whack em' with sniper fire for the rest of the game.

Why would they force them to go around instead of charging the HH themselves? Even hitting on 6's only, they are bound to inflict serious damage. In the same vein, why does moving in a different direction deny them a cover save? What would stop them from turbo-boosting?

Well, they don't have to go around the HH's, but wouldn't you? Okay, here is my 700 pt troops choice stopped out in the middle of the board attacking 2 little HH's that can't hurt me worth a crap? Or are they going to want to get into the meat of the army and tear that apart? I'd say the latter. You can only turbo boost in a straight line. 2 HH's turned sideways block los for 12" when placed side by side. Hope that clears things up.

Kungfuhustler wrote:
Well, they don't have to go around the HH's, but wouldn't you? Okay, here is my 700 pt troops choice stopped out in the middle of the board attacking 2 little HH's that can't hurt me worth a crap?

I'd assault the Nerf Hounds and destroy/disrupt them and gain a few extra inches in the assault while staying behind the wreckage to keep out of LOS and claim a free kill point. Why would you even consider making a wall out of them, when you could field two chimeras and get the same effect if you just wanted a mobile wall?

The only hound variant I see being used is the one with the poison spray and upgrade its heavy bolter to a multi-melta. Even then I'd prefer to take a Vendetta over the hound.

But "making its points back" isn't the name of the game anymore. Contest one objective and win... it is worth it.

Kungfuhustler wrote: You can only turbo boost in a straight line. 2 HH's turned sideways block los for 12" when placed side by side. Hope that clears things up.

It would if you were correct about only being able to Turboboost in a straight line. But you're not.

Kungfuhustler wrote:Well, they don't have to go around the HH's, but wouldn't you? Okay, here is my 700 pt troops choice stopped out in the middle of the board attacking 2 little HH's that can't hurt me worth a crap? Or are they going to want to get into the meat of the army and tear that apart? I'd say the latter. You can only turbo boost in a straight line. 2 HH's turned sideways block los for 12" when placed side by side. Hope that clears things up.

No, you don't have to turboboost in a straight line. You can't go through terrain, and you have to finish at least 18" from where you started.

Nurgleboy77 wrote:But "making its points back" isn't the name of the game anymore. Contest one objective and win... it is worth it.

True, but Hellhounds are pretty easy to kill at short range, which is what contesting objectives require. Admittedly, you could keep it back for 5 turns and bum rush the objective to contest, but you could do that better with a Valkyrie (cheaper and faster) or Vendetta (faster and punchier against hard targets). Even then, Hellhounds are still about 90pts worth of tank to me.

I'm not one to jump into the middle of the argument but the point "its going to get its points back" Doesn't work anymore, (just as Nurgleboy77 pointed out). The main reason I'm going to take a hellhound (none of you have to, this is just me) is that any troop with a 4+ or less save is going to roast, and it ignores cover (its 5th ed), and with speed enough for a last minute dash at the end of the game.
With all that I'm taking a squad of at least 2 no matter what, "nerfhound" or not.

Boy this thread has become a hotbed of melodrama.

Please sell off your IG armies because voxes don't work how you want.

You can move before you issue an order, and all command squads will likely be in chimeras. So your orders have 18"-24" range. I'm sorry if you can't make that work for you. And please don't bring realism into the discussion about vox ranges. That's asinine.


Please make "get your points back" arguments on fast vehicles with 12/12/10.

How many points does a hellhound 'count as' scoring if it blocks an enemy objective? How many points does it count as scoring if it walls off a big ork unit, far away from its power klaw, moved a full 12" to do it and fired? How many points is it worth as it gives cover saves to all vehicles behind it, turning sideways for a huge roadblock and not exposing side 10?


Has it not really occured to anyone that guard looks to now have two seperate but equally FANTASTIC basic troops?

We are about to enter into the ork world of epople complaining about our basic troops.

example 1.

10x veterans 1x lascannon or autocannon 3x meltaguns chimera

this unit costs 160-170. Fires one BS4 lascannon or autocannon, one heavy bolter and one multi-laser at two seperate targets every turn from an armor 12 platform, at some point it can move 6" and fire three BS4 meltaguns, while staying safely inside. Look for TROOP units that can do that in other codexes for that price.

30x guardsmen 3x autocannons commissar

200 even. What a rotten unit to face off against. With "better than fearless" stubborn leadership 10. Re-rollable is 89% pass rate isn't good enough and you spring for a company command squad with banner. (that'll give you a 97% pass rate) The ability to 'rip cord' the unit by allocating wounds to the commissar instantly turning it from a tarpit into a trap door for assault units to break out of, 4+ cover, 2+ cover with an easily passed order when you know some heat is coming at you. All sorts of orders that can interact with the 6 strength 7 shots. Expect complaints this summer from your opponents.

Mix those two troop choices in with a ROBUST heavy support slot and fast attack slot, and some quality choices in the HQ. Not to mention the possibly devastating sanctioned psyker unit. We've got multiple ways to kill tanks from range or with meltas, we've got more cover ignoring than I could ahve hoped for. And I'm writing lists that have 10 kill points, without even worrying about kill points.

Continue complaining. That's what the internet is for. But know that its getting a little ridiculous.

Shep wrote:Boy this thread has become a hotbed of melodrama.

Please sell off your IG armies because voxes don't work how you want.
***snip***
You can move before you issue an order, and all command squads will likely be in chimeras. So your orders have 18"-24" range. I'm sorry if you can't make that work for you. And please don't bring realism into the discussion about vox ranges. That's asinine.
***snip***
Continue complaining. That's what the internet is for. But know that its getting a little ridiculous.

wow, you basically just described yourself in your own post. we're having a discussion; please go back to your bridge.

CaptKaruthors wrote:People are harping on the HH being nerfed, but nobody is mentioning that with a stubber added, you can move 6" and toss out the template, the HB, and the HS...just like you could in 4th edition. I think the HH will compete with the valk IMHO. I'm looking forward to testing out several builds. I like the fact that I can field some models that people won't readily have available on the day of it's release. My Manticore, Vanquishers, and FW Valks will all see use on May 2.

Capt K

I hear ya man, but for 20 more points you can get a Eradicator. It can do it from 36" away (out of melee/melta range) and has AV14.

I still think the Hellhound can be very effective (don't think i'd sink the points in it for a HS), but the fact that you can get an Eradicator for a little bit more, or a Valk w/ pods for the same price... I just wish they didn't raise the price!!

Guys come on guys.



If I can't get worked up about my favorite little plastic men on the internet, then I don't want to be a grownup.

Shep wrote:Boy this thread has become a hotbed of melodrama.

<snip>

Continue complaining. That's what the internet is for. But know that its getting a little ridiculous.

Feel free to exit the thread at any time.

HBMC covered the problem. There is no lack of power in the book. (There is no lack of power in the current chaos codex, either). The problem is a lack of usable flavor - there are a ton of interesting-looking options, which are hindered by arbitrary implementation decisions.

• Ogryn would be great, and an assault-based IG army would be hilarious...except that they are so overpriced as to be useless.


• Squadrons of Hellhounds would be fun...except that they cost too much, relative to other units in the codex, and have to drive up into meltagun/assault range to be effective.


• Massed new LR tank variants would be very attractive to see...except that the new variants aren't even as useful as the stock Russ, and/or cost way too much.


• Airborne stormtroopers strike teams have a visceral appeal...except that they are so overpriced as to be unpalatable even to die-hard fanatics.

And say what you want about brining realism into the game, the Vox thing is asinine. Suspension of reality only stretches so far - we expect a tank cannon to fire some sort of ranged projectile, and we expect battlefield radios to be useful beyond unaided shouting range.

I'm with Shep on this. I'm outta this thread. Time to start posting army lists soon.

Hey, I can't wait to try out all of the different setups that IG can do with the new codex.

I still think the "optimal" setup will be gunline, but I don't doubt that there will be many different "less optimal" setups that can be a lot of fun.

It is unfortunate if this is true in regards to competitive play, that is to say, it would be nice if IG (and hopefully will) can field different competitive setups. But we would not be the first or last army that is limited in it's competitive lists...

Shep wrote:Boy this thread has become a hotbed of melodrama.

Luckily you're going to post good points that do nothing to encourage off topic replies, right?

Please sell off your IG armies because voxes don't work how you want.

Oh, i guess not. Look, the extreme point being made is that at +5pts with limited range, voxes aren't worth anything. Even the middle view is, I believe, accurate in stating that they'll only be used in those squads that stay home, near the officers.

You can move before you issue an order, and all command squads will likely be in chimeras. So your orders have 18"-24" range. I'm sorry if you can't make that work for you. And please don't bring realism into the discussion about vox ranges. That's asinine.

Well, I'm glad to see you're sticking to avoiding using inflammatory language. Oops, wait...

Please make "get your points back" arguments on fast vehicles with 12/12/10.

How many points does a hellhound 'count as' scoring if it blocks an enemy objective? How many points does it count as scoring if it walls off a big ork unit, far away from its power klaw, moved a full 12" to do it and fired? How many points is it worth as it gives cover saves to all vehicles behind it, turning sideways for a huge roadblock and not exposing side 10?

Valid points, again, but as I pointed out, the HH really isn't that good at contesting, especially when compared to other options in the book.

Has it not really occured to anyone that guard looks to now have two seperate but equally FANTASTIC basic troops?

We are about to enter into the ork world of epople complaining about our basic troops.

I'm not sure anybody has said this will be a weak codex.

Continue complaining. That's what the internet is for. But know that its getting a little ridiculous.

Well, you're comments are sure to settle us down.

I'm not selling off my IG army, infact I'm adding to it. What I am doing is selling off the parts I will no longer be using due to the new codex. Plus going through my bitz box to convert Vox casters back to normal guardsmen.

I'm seriously toying with the idea of arming my line squads with lasguns and perhaps a GL. Dumping the heavy weapons, flamers and meltas into their own squads. Plasmas go to command squads along with a medic in case of overheating.

BoxANT wrote:I still think the "optimal" setup will be gunline, but I don't doubt that there will be many different "less optimal" setups that can be a lot of fun.

In my experience, losing time and again is never fun.

I'm pretty settled on my lists at this point. 20-man mega-squads in each platoon armed with ONE vox, a GL and a HB/AC each. Then the PHQ w/ medic and vox and 2 plasmas.

Wrap that sweet core with a set of Bassies, two independant LRBTs and Creed leading them for some sweet sweet gunline goodness. My only real concern at this point is grabbing that far objective, though the use of "Move, move!" may come in handy. We'll just have to play around and see.

Maybe something will get dumped for Veterans in a Vendetta, or something equally neat. Who knows.

Dont call the codex boring just because you are not able to build a list that is different and able to compete. If you were unable to win with the current codex you most likely will not be able to win with the new codex.

The hellhound is not nerfed, find a piece of terrain and play run around the car with the thing, they will have to move through terrain to charge you and if they fail another dose of flame template. It will become one of the most reliable weapons in the game if your skilled. If you whether take another unit because you can execute with it better thats fine, but dont go saying its nerf because you are afraid to get a little closer.

Its lack of skill not nerf when you cant use something like others will.

Most of you hate the fact that newer players might find a way to play guard in a new way that you cannot grasp, and you are left behind trying to make your boring gunline work. So please ridicule everything, it will not stop the inevitable that new players will play guard better then you because they dont have the mental constraints that have build up over the years.

Now to the order system, do you know what new players will say when you tell them about the ld bubble, "What it used to increase ld, thats all" I mean are you serious? If you thought gaining ld 8 or 9 was slightly impressive then I can see why you are complaining so much because you most likely lost the majority of the time(most likely from trying to maintain the ld bubble, lol).

I am happy that their is a bandwagon effect, because frankly some of you vets complain to much. Hopefully the new guard players will not be so feeble and weak and will not constantly praise marine players and their terminators. It is almost distastefull how you guys compare yourselves to other armies and cry out we dont have what you guys have look at our codex.

Truth be told you complainers just want to make sure that your excuse for losing doesnt go away.

Polonius wrote:Well, you're comments are sure to settle us down.

Getting passionate and emotional responses was not my intent. But you are right, I should have known better.

Janthkin wrote:Feel free to exit the thread at any time.

I generally do silently leave threads that don't have anything to offer in discourse. This thread however, is chock full of good discussion. I'm just a little strained sifting through the reactionary posts. It was silly of me to think that the reactionaries were going to respond well when I tell them 'the sky isn't falling'.

I might just hang around for discussion starters like this one...

Scottywan82 wrote:I'm pretty settled on my lists at this point. 20-man mega-squads in each platoon armed with ONE vox, a GL and a HB/AC each. Then the PHQ w/ medic and vox and 2 plasmas.

Wrap that sweet core with a set of Bassies, two independant LRBTs and Creed leading them for some sweet sweet gunline goodness. My only real concern at this point is grabbing that far objective, though the use of "Move, move!" may come in handy. We'll just have to play around and see.

Maybe something will get dumped for Veterans in a Vendetta, or something equally neat. Who knows.

With a couple of my space marine lists, I gave up on 'scoring' the far objective, and just had a good plan for blocking everything that wasn't in reach.

'Move move move' can buy an extra round of heavy weapon shooting before you'll need to head out to the objective that is semi-nearby, but I might suggest trying something from the fast attack slot to block the far away stuff, and just clear out and score all the stuff in front of you. Outflanking some sentinels or some valk/vendettas, or even some hellhounds/variants could put some serious pressure on a cap and control home base or far away seize ground objectives. If you did choose the valk or vend you could include a 35 point special weapon squad on the off chance that you could clear away an objective and score it yourself.

Are you planning on using 'for cadia' in a significant way? Possibly a priest and some power weapons? or maybe a biggish 'whiteshield' unit?

POST WITH PASSION! ITS A SURE WAY TO VICTORY!!

Quick question though, I've heard reports saying that the lumbering behemoth rule does and doesn't allow the use of turret weapons along with the sponson and hull weapons. PLEASE, WHICH IS TRUE?!

Oh and is anyone considering the use of ogryns?

CKO wrote:Dont call the codex boring just because you are not able to build a list that is different and able to compete. If you were unable to win with the current codex you most likely will not be able to win with the new codex.

So the wild KP imbalance, overpriced infantry, and a six year old codex had nothing to do with it?

The hellhound is not nerfed, find a piece of terrain and play run around the car with the thing, they will have to move through terrain to charge you and if they fail another dose of flame template. It will become one of the most reliable weapons in the game if your skilled. If you whether take another unit because you can execute with it better thats fine, but dont go saying its nerf because you are afraid to get a little closer.

This confuses me. Terrain doesn't block LOS. I see what you are saying, and I think if you really read many of the comments posters here, mine included, you'll see that people aren't calling the HH worthless. There are clearly ways to use it, it's just a lot of points for what it does, even under optimal circumstances.

Its lack of skill not nerf when you cant use something like others will.

Use Tactics!

Most of you hate the fact that newer players might find a way to play guard in a new way that you cannot grasp, and you are left behind trying to make your boring gunline work. So please ridicule everything, it will not stop the inevitable that new players will play guard better then you because they dont have the mental constraints that have build up over the years.

Have you been reading this thread? The crustiest IG vets here: myself, HBMC, etc. are all trying to find ways to play other than a gunline. Pointing out that the gunline aspects are those that got the most benefit in the new book isn't a mental constraint, it's simply objective analysis.

I'm also no sure calling out all experienced players is really a wise choice.

Now to the order system, do you know what new players will say when you tell them about the ld bubble, "What it used to increase ld, thats all" I mean are you serious? If you thought gaining ld 8 or 9 was slightly impressive then I can see why you are complaining so much because you most likely lost the majority of the time(most likely from trying to maintain the ld bubble, lol).

Well, in 4th edition the benefit was more dramatic due to ignoring the penalty for being under half, and Iron Discipline allowed a squad to rally even if under half strength. It was a pretty big deal.

So, because we pointed out that orders replaced leadership, we clearly lost most of the time due to trying to utilize the rules in our codex. You logic, sir, is nigh impeccable.

I am happy that their is a bandwagon effect, because frankly some of you vets complain to much. Hopefully the new guard players will not be so feeble and weak and will not constantly praise marine players and their terminators. It is almost distastefull how you guys compare yourselves to other armies and cry out we dont have what you guys have look at our codex.

Wow, well, I'm suprised that I'm now weak and feeble because I can compare the cost of an Ogryn to a Terminator.

Truth be told you complainers just want to make sure that your excuse for losing doesnt go away.

This is frankly just insulting. I can't even mock it subtly, that line was just mean.

CKO wrote:Dont call the codex boring just because you are not able to build a list that is different and able to compete. If you were unable to win with the current codex you most likely will not be able to win with the new codex.

*alot of nothing*

Truth be told you complainers just want to make sure that your excuse for losing doesnt go away.

Nobody has said the codex is going to be a lame duck. People are complaining because certain units/wargear got the shaft. On the upside we got new shiny tanks and flyers to use. Arby giveth and Arbie taketh.

In regards to the Nerf Hound, no amount of tactical skill is going to prevent you from being shot at by a meltagun in your opponents shooting phase. You make a statement that you are an amazing tactician and can still use the tank. Its just going to die next turn unless your shooting at some Tau Firewarriors. In the current codex the Hell Hound had a nice safety zone to use its turret. In the upcoming incarnation it needs to put itself in the danger zone to work. Thats what people complain about. So why pay the points for it if we can get more out of our fliers?

The new codex has the power to be powerful but its presenting itself in a very one dimensional feel.

I can't wait for people to actually live up to their angst and start cutting their selves.

When they cut themselves, they shall use the plastic bayonets in the cadian infantry sprue.

Uh, this is IG. Not DE.

The Psychic Choir seems to be are only really useful Elite choice so what units do IG Generals plan to use in conjunction with this unit?

I think 50pt 3x Sniper Special Weapons Squad will make a nice choice for pinning, and still be able to count as scoring. Would ratlings preform better or worse in this role?

That is so fitting for the hobby. Though I do suggest the plastic spears found in the Skull Pass boxed set, those are much sharper and can actually draw blood.

Maybe GW should just release the codex with a piece of rope. "CITADEL ROPE(tm), high quality hobby rope made to stand up to the needs of those in need of a way out."

Then they can wheel out the CITADEL STOOL(tm) to make the drop better, maybe even a CITADEL(tm) guide to doing it properly, with a fun little guide for those spankers who post on the boards that you shouldn't buy the overpriced rope and stool but instead can get the same results for less at their obscure local hardware / hobby store.

Thimn wrote:The Psychic Choir seems to be are only really useful Elite choice so what units do IG Generals plan to use in conjunction with this unit?

I think 50pt 3x Sniper Special Weapons Squad will make a nice choice for pinning, and still be able to count as scoring. Would ratlings preform better or worse in this role?

If I ever field this unit, it will work in conjunction with my existing units. This involves a lot of barrage weapons, which happen to be pinning. Ratlings have always been better at sniping than human sniper squads if you want to go that route. Get more sniper rifles for the points and they're shooting at higher BS.

You could also just shoot the target unit a lot and hope to inflict 25% casualties.

This thread has been a poisonous ground from page 1, and it looks to be getting a lot worse every day. Congrats for raising the bar once again.

Thing is Aggy I don't think the people criticising the Guard Codex are the ones making it toxic...

Maybe its the people criticising the people who are criticising the codex that are making it toxic, either that or nurgle.

Chaos did it, I learned that one from GW.

Thimn wrote:The Psychic Choir seems to be are only really useful Elite choice so what units do IG Generals plan to use in conjunction with this unit?

I think 50pt 3x Sniper Special Weapons Squad will make a nice choice for pinning, and still be able to count as scoring. Would ratlings preform better or worse in this role?

I was thinking about using a Calexus assassin. Would there be any overlap/stacking of the leadership drain affects? The choir would seriously amp up the Animus on the assassin though

-Yad

Yad wrote:

Thimn wrote:The Psychic Choir seems to be are only really useful Elite choice so what units do IG Generals plan to use in conjunction with this unit?

I think 50pt 3x Sniper Special Weapons Squad will make a nice choice for pinning, and still be able to count as scoring. Would ratlings preform better or worse in this role?

I was thinking about using a Calexus assassin. Would there be any overlap/stacking of the leadership drain affects? The choir would seriously amp up the Animus on the assassin though

-Yad

Now that's one for the dirty tricks book.

Thimn wrote:The Psychic Choir seems to be are only really useful Elite choice so what units do IG Generals plan to use in conjunction with this unit?

I think 50pt 3x Sniper Special Weapons Squad will make a nice choice for pinning, and still be able to count as scoring. Would ratlings preform better or worse in this role?

I think I'll have a lots of barrage in all of my lists. A griffon or basilisk shot or two would do nicely there.

The pinning game is a nice one-two combo for the leadership, but taking it a bit further and going for the moral test mixed with a vendetta/valkyrie shepherding off the table is a much more final solution. (Godwyn effect just increased exponentially)

There is a Witch Hunter psychic ability that forces your opponent to take a morale check as if it had suffered 25% casualties modified by the difference between the Inquisitor's and the target's leadership values. That ability combined with weaken resolve Deep Striking from a Valk seems awesome.

I think you could do a really fun Inquisition list with this new Codex.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

BoxANT wrote:I still think the "optimal" setup will be gunline, but I don't doubt that there will be many different "less optimal" setups that can be a lot of fun.

In my experience, losing time and again is never fun.

Well, unless every game you play is in a tourny, I don't see why anyone would loose a lot.

Not everyone runs Nob Bikers or Double Lash. And hell, even with our current codex, IG can pull off some wins against top tier lists with some luck.

And since KP issue is going to be less of a hamstring, even our less optimal lists (read: not the best =/= bad) should be able to perform well.

Thimn wrote:The Psychic Choir seems to be are only really useful Elite choice so what units do IG Generals plan to use in conjunction with this unit?

I think 50pt 3x Sniper Special Weapons Squad will make a nice choice for pinning, and still be able to count as scoring. Would ratlings preform better or worse in this role?

Lets not forget about a simple morale test for 25% losses.

If a unit is on an objective, I really don't want them to be pinned (+1 cover save) as much as I want them to run

Drop their Ld to 2 and hit them with a Hellhound (if we're still using them), or just move a platoon close and rapidfire/flamer.

Thimn wrote:The new codex has the power to be powerful but its presenting itself in a very one dimensional feel.

As someone who plays other armies I beg to disagree with this assessment.

Yes the good ol gun line is still there to play with. If it had been taken away I think there would have been a revolt. Gun-line is the quintessential IG.

But, It seem your missing the biggest change. The sheer amount of speed the IG picked up in this codex. With Fast skimmer transports, Fast tanks, and now mobile Ordinance you'll be able to build Competitive lists that are as fast as the Eldar. Add in what appears to be highly effesctive psykers and you have IE(Imperial Eldar)My nickname for this Codex.

The sheer amount of variety of builds available in this new 'dex is making me think about buying my own IE as opposed to just borrowing on occassion from my friends.

Hmm...which way to go?

Steadily advancing armored wall of ordinance, surrounded by infantry? Has a certain classic WWII appeal.
The fast Air Cav build? More recent style of fast strike scouting warfare.
Psychic choir singing songs of Death? Futuristic Sci-fantasy.
All veteran smaller army that will probably pack a greater amout of mobile firepower than any other army? Special ops Force anyone?
Mixtures of all of the above with other stuff I haven't mentioned yet.

Yes in most of the builds I've been working on so far there has been just about 160pts left when I'm done. 160pts for the Storms. Hey, Its just me. No one else has to follow my madness.
You may disagree but I'm liking the flexibility of build options for this army. True theres no real HtH, But then again I don't want to play 'Nids, Orks, or SMs.

Middle, Do Valks have to be bought in squadron form or always use up a FA slot or are they buyable transports for each troop also?

BrookM wrote:That is so fitting for the hobby. Though I do suggest the plastic spears found in the Skull Pass boxed set, those are much sharper and can actually draw blood.

Maybe GW should just release the codex with a piece of rope. "CITADEL ROPE(tm), high quality hobby rope made to stand up to the needs of those in need of a way out."

Then they can wheel out the CITADEL STOOL(tm) to make the drop better, maybe even a CITADEL(tm) guide to doing it properly, with a fun little guide for those spankers who post on the boards that you shouldn't buy the overpriced rope and stool but instead can get the same results for less at their obscure local hardware / hobby store.

Privateer Press makes better rope. And they don't charge you an arm and a leg for it.

KHAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Agamemnon2 wrote:

BoxANT wrote:I still think the "optimal" setup will be gunline, but I don't doubt that there will be many different "less optimal" setups that can be a lot of fun.

In my experience, losing time and again is never fun.

From your sig:
"The 31st Saros Penal Regiment - 4 wins, 37 losses, 7 draws"


So... why do you play? Not being sarcastic, I really want to know. Cause if losing time and again is never fun, and you have a record like that, what keeps you in the game?

It certainly can't be the meaningful discussions on the internet.

Noisy_Marine wrote:
Privateer Press makes better rope. And they don't charge you an arm and a leg for it.

The only reason PP rope is cheaper is because you need less of it. And just wait, in a few more months or years PP rope will be indistinguishable from GW rope.

Ozymandias wrote:And just wait, in a few more months or years PP rope will be indistinguishable from GW rope.

Except it's instructions will be better written and have FAQs out in a timely fashion.

Platuan4th wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:And just wait, in a few more months or years PP rope will be indistinguishable from GW rope.

Except it's instructions will be better written and have FAQs out in a timely fashion.

And their site is global, not segmented into continents and large countries, thus preventing certain parts of the world of proper use of the item.

after reading all of these rumors i cant wait for guard.
if the guard is this good i cant wait to see what they do with dark eldar.
if the new dark eldar is as good as these new models that i found it should be great!

Wow, did we just kill this thread? Frankly, after 35 pages it was probably due.

Agamemnon2 wrote:This thread has been a poisonous ground from page 1, and it looks to be getting a lot worse every day. Congrats for raising the bar once again.

Hey, I've been silent and intend to hold quiet until this POS is in hand.

At that point, people can expect a scathing review.

Ozymandias wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:

BoxANT wrote:I still think the "optimal" setup will be gunline, but I don't doubt that there will be many different "less optimal" setups that can be a lot of fun.

In my experience, losing time and again is never fun.

From your sig:
"The 31st Saros Penal Regiment - 4 wins, 37 losses, 7 draws"


So... why do you play? Not being sarcastic, I really want to know. Cause if losing time and again is never fun, and you have a record like that, what keeps you in the game?

It certainly can't be the meaningful discussions on the internet.

I imagine it's because he likes to play.

What I want to know is, why track the losses?

Though I have to admit I'm interested in seeing how his track record changes with a new Codex.

If the Valk didn't exist, the Hellhound would still have a place.

Since the Valk does exist... in the same slot, at the same cost (with upgrade)... bad luck, Nerfhound.

The Nova Eradicator existing is just salt in the wound.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
"At that point, people can expect a scathing review."

it sounds like you've already made up your mind.

Based on the breadth of nerfs, yes.

Oooh, you and HBMC should do a joint review!!

I'm sure it will be very... uh... informative?

alarmingrick wrote:JohnHwangDD wrote:
"At that point, people can expect a scathing review."

it sounds like you've already made up your mind.

Who hasn't?

We know virtually everything that there is to know about this book, the only thing is that we don't physically have it.

Heck, I'm not paying $25 for a book that isn't even worthy of the Chinese toilet paper that it's written on.

I'll probably download it on a torrent or something, or I'll buy it second hand.

Ursarker E. Creed (I'm sure that his middle initial stands for Eldrad) being mandatory was the final straw on the camel's back for me, imnsho.

@Ozymandias- I'll join in too, assuming that torrents for the codex come out the day of.

So because you don't like the new rules you are going to steal the codex?

That'll show em!

usernamesareannoying wrote:[fabulous DE news]

Awesome pics, certainly never seen those before. You should probably make your own thread though, rather than clog up this thread.

(due to moderators getting sick, and justifiably so, of DE rumor threads, don't actually do this)

So who's going to review this thing? I'm picking it up at 9:00 AM on the day it comes out, maybe earlier since it was preordered. And I can write pretty damn fast.

Ozymandias wrote:So because you don't like the new rules you are going to steal the codex?

That'll show em!

Not really, it's not to show them, it's more to save me money. I realized a while back that $250 is chump change to GW, $25 for a mere booklet even moreso.

By the way I'm just kidding. I'm buying it second hand. Though I may take a peek at a torrent just to make sure that it's worth buying-that's what I did with the Eldar codex.

Why doesn't anyone listen to me when I say something interesting?

Cheese Elemental wrote:Why doesn't anyone listen to me when I say something interesting?

WHY DOESN'T ANYONE ANSWER TO YOUR POSTS?!?!

Maybe everyone has you ignore, Cheese. Did you ever think of that?

As far as reviews go, I already said that I'd do another Cover-2-Cover review, just like my Chaos one and my recent Retro WD Review.

I probably won't be able to do this with a downloaded PDF version, as they've been cutting the colour sections out of these recently to save on filespace (the Marine Codex I downloaded was bare bones - main part, weapon section, list - that's it!). I'll have to go out and buy it the moment it comes out rather than waiting for Maelstrom to have an Easter sale.

Ozy wrote:So because you don't like the new rules you are going to steal the codex?

I download every Codex that comes out. I also buy most of them as well - I actually rushed to buy the new Marine 'Dex - but having an electronic copy is very useful.

It's like with the BTech rulebooks - the company that makes them releases them in PDF and hardcopy. If GW entered the 21st Century and started releasing PDF's of their books (that you would pay for - I'm not suggesting they should be free) then we could have a searchable/copyable form of the Codex. I know a lot of people would like such a service.

I make alot of assumptions when people complain, and I was only able to find a few post that were actually helpful and the rest were complaints thus my rant but I do apologize.(i should have better self control)

Do you think a squadron of basilisk will allow us to use multibarrage rule with the large template. I mean that will be nasty flipping over a large template.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Who hasn't?

I haven't.

I think this Codex is full of needless changes, harsh arbitrary limitations and restrictions that, at times, defy the imagination, more redundant units than you can shake a stick at as well as rules and unit changes that make me want to poke my eyes out with rusty spoons (Vox-Casters, Ogryn, Storm Troopers).

But then again, the Marine Codex is full of crap like this as well, and I still like that Codex.

I suspect that my biggest problems with the Guard Codex will be problems endemic to 40K, such as the over-emphasis on Special Characters and items that are the same yet have different rules between different books, rather than anything native to the Guard list (except Ogryn and Storm Troopers - I'm fething pissed about them).

I've preordered the codex and I intend to DL a pdf. I carry my computer to more places than I carry my books and sometimes I feel like looking things up at odd times. I'll spend a few days perusing the codex and post a review if I feel the quicker reviewers left anything useful unsaid.

I'll have to go out and buy some post-its, or at least some tabs.

If GW released pdf copies of all their stuff, even less people would actually buy the army books as they could just have a nice quality pdf, rather than a grainy kinkos copy in black and white.

CKO wrote:Do you think a squadron of basilisk will allow us to use multibarrage rule with the large template. I mean that will be nasty flipping over a large template.

Barring a highly unlikely special rule, yes they will. I expect it might actually be scarier on the Griffon. They have a more useful barrage range, are cheaper to mass, and can reroll scatter.

Some Warseer types came up with the idea of mixing a Griffon into a squadron of other artillery vehicles to use its accurate barrage as the ranging shot. Though the concept is interesting I doubt it would actually be practical.

The problem with mixing in a Griffon with a Bassie is that you limit your firepower to 36-48" only, or you waste the Griffon shot.

JohnHwangDD wrote:The problem with mixing in a Griffon with a Bassie is that you limit your firepower to 36-48" only, or you waste the Griffon shot.

Exactly. It is slightly less bad than that because the Griffon should go 4" in front of the Bassie or Colossus, but still mighty unlikely to work in actual battlefield conditions.

A triple Griffon formation, on the other hand, has a reasonable chance of coming up with all of its templates either hitting or scattering favorably and costs less than two of any other artillery vehicle.

ph34r wrote:If GW released pdf copies of all their stuff, even less people would actually buy the army books as they could just have a nice quality pdf, rather than a grainy kinkos copy in black and white.

There's no proof of that, and it's not a reason not to do it. A sale's a sale to GW, no?

In fact, as I've known a lot of people who want PDFs, I also know a lot of people who forego PDFs because they'd rather have the 'Dead Tree Version' (as it is often known). And then there are people like me who will buy the same book twice - once in PDF, once in hardcopy (or sometimes three times when I'm not paying attention...)

Having a book is useful during a game, because it's right there and you just flip to where you need. Having a PDF is more useful everywhere else, as it's instant access anywhere and you can search through it.

I'd rather just go double- or triple-Bassie and keep things simple.

Has anyone heard of a pdf floating about? with all the people who have seen this book I'd be surpris3d if nobody has scanned it yet.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

ph34r wrote:If GW released pdf copies of all their stuff, even less people would actually buy the army books as they could just have a nice quality pdf, rather than a grainy kinkos copy in black and white.

There's no proof of that, and it's not a reason not to do it. A sale's a sale to GW, no?

My point is not that people would rather buy a pdf than buy a book, but that people would just not buy neither due to high quality scans being re-distributed for free on the interwebs.

there are scans of every current codex on the interwebs! Out of dozens and dozens (and dozens) of 40k players I have met I only know one guy who has a PDF reader instead of a codex at the game table... and I kow for a fact the guy owns the codex! Pdf readers are amazing for 40k by the way.

ph34r wrote:My point is not that people would rather buy a pdf than buy a book, but that people would just not buy neither due to high quality scans being re-distributed for free on the interwebs.

Catalyst Game Labs makes most of their money off of books... in fact... that's all they sell. They're doing quite well with both hardcopy and PDF sales. GW is a miniature company, so I can't see PDF sales being a detriment to their bottom line. Furthermore, people are already downloading PDF's made illegaly and providing ones that people can buy won't change that.

So the book is available in brick and mortar stores now? Cool cool.

I don't think Creed will be mandatory. I think we'll be seeing some armies led by cheap primaris psykers who can hide in the vendettas with the veterans..

I know that there are scans of every codex, but in any case people would have a lot less reason to buy a codex if the pdf versions were just as good. And free.

Ozymandias wrote:Oooh, you and HBMC should do a joint review!!

I'm sure it will be very... uh... informative?

If not objective...the "Fox News" of DakkaDakka.

Nurglitch wrote:So the book is available in brick and mortar stores now? Cool cool.

Not 'til May.

Nope sorry, I personally do not think that there will be any competitive guard builds. The more I have been looking at what is out there, and the more I have been putting combinations together, the less I am seeing to be optimistic about. People are optimistic about possible builds but they are builds that will not be possible. One example, is the whole "an ameba platoon will be hard to kill with an attached commisar. Combine that with orders and it is really powerful" Well the only way you are going to get a commisar into that unit is if you take a commisar lord. That limits your other special character options......

That's what they said about Orks and Chaos, IIRC.

foil7102 wrote: One example, is the whole "an ameba platoon will be hard to kill with an attached commisar. Combine that with orders and it is really powerful" Well the only way you are going to get a commisar into that unit is if you take a commisar lord. That limits your other special character options......

I was under the impression that Commissars are squad upgrades for Infantry Platoons, and that it would not require a Lord?



Personally, I feel that there will be a couple strong builds in the new codex, and perhaps that haven't been considered yet.

But only time will tell.

What do you think is the new special weapon to be used in line squads? Are PG's really worth it anymore? Remember, they do not benefit from FRFSRF.

Well, Autocannons for a start. 10 points each? How could you pass that up. People are saying 'Meltaguns', but conventional wisdom says 'No' to guns with an effective range of 12 in line squads.

Grenade Launchers are now costed correctly, so they could see the light of day. Plasma Guns are still the best weapon to support an Autocannon (both S7), and you get them for the same price as you used to (15+10 for the PG/AC vs the old 10+15 for the PG/AC), so for those of us who used PG/AC squads, they've just gone down in price by 10 points and we've gained Ld8 (which is nice, given we've lost Officer Leadership) and also Frag Grenades (which nobody wanted, but anyway).

What about sniper rifles? They are reported to cost a measly 5 points (I could save enough points in my list for another griffon), have range to match, rending that can give them AP 2 and can also be useful against light armor. Also, in amoeba squads they could potentially add to the pinning combo.

I'm sticking with flamers - cheap and situationally effective. Grenade launchers still aren't terribly effective, but they're cheaper now. Meltas don't belong in line squads. Plasma guns are still the best at what they do, even at the new cost.

MikeK wrote:What about sniper rifles? They are reported to cost a measly 5 points (I could save enough points in my list for another griffon), they have range to match which can give them AP 2 and can also be useful against light armor. Also, in amoeba squads they could potentially add to the pinning combo.

Sniper Rifles in 40K are a complete opposite to real life - where one Sniper Rifle can cause a squad an entire formation to be held up whilst they find it and elimiante, for Sniper Rifles to cause damage in 40K you need batteries of them. They do not belong in squads because squads can't get them in large enough numbers to do anything.

Plasma guns are still the default choice. They have good range, good volume of fire, good strength, and excellent AP. Paying for AP3 isn't always wise anymore with cover, but AP2 is still worth every penny. Pair with lascannons or autocannons.

Grenade launchers are pretty meh, but are cheap and ranged. The ability to fire on the move is pretty nice as well, but will pretty much only pair with the autocannon.

The Flamer is great for what it does, and will often get to shoot in 5th edition. Pair with autocannon (or HB if you still field those, but I'd rather have ACs for the same price), or if feeling saucy, a deeply placed lascannon squad. I ran this config for a while, and while there is lousy synergy, the squad does two things reasonably well for a decent cost. Shoot the lascannon early, and if needed, charge in with the flamer.

And the Meltagun needs to be in groups to be truly effective - one might kill somethign, two might damage something, three will kill something - and therefore do not belong in line squads (that and their range is 12", or 6" if you want to fire the Heavy Weapon).

I think Sniper Rifles show a little bit of promise. They have a 36" range and like shooting at most of the same things Autocannons like shooting at.

Most of the things the Autocannon likes shooting at?

How often do you use the Autocannon Neil 'cause last time I checked Sniper Rifles can do between "nothing" and "feth all" to AV12 vehicles.

MikeK wrote:What do you think is the new special weapon to be used in line squads? Are PG's really worth it anymore? Remember, they do not benefit from FRFSRF.

I am leaning to two setups.

AC/melta. I consider this squad a "take on all comers" squad. Yes I know that task specialization has been the hallmark of IG squads in the past, but I feel that AC/melta has too many things going for it to overlook. Cost, the Autocannon dropping to 10pts has really (imo) shaken HW selection up. I feel the AC gives you the excellent "all around" abilities, being able to threaten most armor, MC and infantry, and at a great price. Meltaguns are the only effective anti tank in 5ed, and the loss of DS Vets is forcing IG to look for alternative vectors. I feel that having wide access to meltas in your infantry squads will allow IG to threaten more areas of the board.

The second squad that is really getting me interested is the simple Flamer squad. If used as 10man squad, they provide a good speedbump and can threaten infantry, and if grouped up they make a great unit to push into objectvies with. Combine with the rapidfire order, these squads will be able to dish out a respectable mount of damage.

The GL may make a surprise comeback (well... would it really be returning?), at 5pt they don't feel like a waste. 15pts of GL vs 15pts of PG against MEQ is actually very close. I am considering try them in PCS, keep them close to the infantry but not too close to the enemy, and stay mobile.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Most of the things the Autocannon likes shooting at?

How often do you use the Autocannon Neil 'cause last time I checked Sniper Rifles can do between "nothing" and "feth all" to AV12 vehicles.

Sniper rifles can glance AV12. 3% chance. Better than last ed. Better than a Plasma Gun at 25" or more.
(For comparison, Autocannons have a 30% chance of getting at least one glancing of better hit on AV12. 16% chance of at least one penetrating).

Which is not to say Sniper Rifles like shooting at AV12. They'd rather shoot at AV10-11, or high toughness models such as monstrous creatures - the things Autocannons really like shooting at.

As for how often I use Autocannons - I explained earlier in my timeline, I am a lapsed Guard player as my army didn't work with the last codex. I had 6 autocannons in it in the few test games I played last edition.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Most of the things the Autocannon likes shooting at?

How often do you use the Autocannon Neil 'cause last time I checked Sniper Rifles can do between "nothing" and "feth all" to AV12 vehicles.

rules lawyer to the rescue!! sniper rifles are strength 3 and roll 1d6 for penetration. if you roll a six for pen, you get an extra d3 from rending. so all you need to do with a guardsmen is roll a 4+, then a 6, then another 5 or 6 to glance... lol, not likely but i did immobilize a chimera once with that!

Just because something is capable of damaging something else does in no way mean that it likes to shoot the same sort of targets.

There is only one gun (and has only ever been one gun) that likes to shoot at the same time targets as the Autocannon, and that's the Plasma Gun. And as I said, the Plasma Gun/Autocannon combo hasn't gone up or down in price (still 25 points for the pair), so that's great news.

Line squads will nearly always be las plas, just like always.

I will miss having a heavy flame rand flamer in my squads, those were fantastic last edition. Oh well.

Other than that, I guess now I would go with a line squad with a flamer in a chimera for scoring duty, that or a big chunk of conscripts.

Well, a squad of hardened vets next to a vedetta isn't bad. They can fire 4 accurate las cannons a turn, hop in the ride and shoot towards an objective late game.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:This thread has been a poisonous ground from page 1, and it looks to be getting a lot worse every day. Congrats for raising the bar once again.

Hey, I've been silent and intend to hold quiet until this POS is in hand.

At that point, people can expect a scathing review.

Way to keep an open mind there, John. Kind of reminds me of stelek and the daemon codex... :-)

H.B.M.C. wrote:Just because something is capable of damaging something else does in no way mean that it likes to shoot the same sort of targets.

There is only one gun (and has only ever been one gun) that likes to shoot at the same time targets as the Autocannon, and that's the Plasma Gun. And as I said, the Plasma Gun/Autocannon combo hasn't gone up or down in price (still 25 points for the pair), so that's great news.

I started to type a reply with maths and stuff, but then I remembered the old adage about arguing with a brick wall.

No come on - show me your math.

If you've got proof to back up your assertions you're already 10 times better than most people, and I'm quite happy to be wrong as long as I'm proven wrong.

My assertions are based upon years of playing the Guard, but if you have statistical information that shows otherwise, have at it. Post it.

I'll listen because unlike shum of us, I'm not a wall.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Most of the things the Autocannon likes shooting at?

How often do you use the Autocannon Neil 'cause last time I checked Sniper Rifles can do between "nothing" and "feth all" to AV12 vehicles.

I think he was coming from the high toughness MC type targets veiwpoint and maybe with a little of the old 4th ed rending rules leftover.
It could also be debated whether autocannons "like" shooting at av12. Seems to me that if they had feelings and enjoyed shooting stuff it would be fast, light skimmers and av11 and under transports with the occasional MC thrown in for kicks.

Now, I do agree with you that the snipers are completely counter to real world and could do with a complete rework but just don't see GW going to the trouble.

Ozymandias wrote:From your sig:
"The 31st Saros Penal Regiment - 4 wins, 37 losses, 7 draws"

So... why do you play? Not being sarcastic, I really want to know. Cause if losing time and again is never fun, and you have a record like that, what keeps you in the game?

Building models and painting them. Other considerations are secondary, which is not to say that I wouldn't like to win a game now and again.

Somnicide wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Hey, I've been silent and intend to hold quiet until this POS is in hand.

At that point, people can expect a scathing review.

Way to keep an open mind there, John. Kind of reminds me of stelek and the daemon codex... :-)

What's there to be open about?

Most of the Codex has been leaked, and that's enough to form a pretty clear impression of things. So far, I haven't seen much to get excited about, aside from the plastic Valkyrie.

It's a real pity, as I had really high hopes for this Codex.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Just because something is capable of damaging something else does in no way mean that it likes to shoot the same sort of targets.

There is only one gun (and has only ever been one gun) that likes to shoot at the same time targets as the Autocannon, and that's the Plasma Gun. And as I said, the Plasma Gun/Autocannon combo hasn't gone up or down in price (still 25 points for the pair), so that's great news.

What about the Grenade Launcher? Only S6 sure, but still great for hacking at AV10/11 vehicles and can glance AV12, and can supplement anti-infantry firepower for only 5pts I think?

It's what I've been looking at more than anything.


EDIT: the more I look at this codex, the more I see that it has potential. Showing up to a 2000pt game with 6 leman russ tanks of various sorts and 110 infantry, or 9 Griffons 3 devil dogs and 110 infantry is going to scare a lot of people. The strength of the codex will be in the reduced price of GL's, AC's, and the massed availability of blast and ordnance weapons. Forget all the flashy **** like the Valk or the Executioner, the ST's and the Ogyrn, just cram as many dudes and ordnance/blast bearing vehicles in as you can. It's a shame much of the other stuff is so naff, I was really hoping this would be the one to break that cycle, but alas it's not. That said, it still looks like it will increase IG competitiveness.

Yep, a few grenade launchers could do wonders against Marines (it's S6 AP3 right?)

Cheese Elemental wrote:Yep, a few grenade launchers could do wonders against Marines (it's S6 AP3 right?)

No, only AP4 :(

but it's still S6, can fire as a blast, can move and fire up to 24", and I think is only 5pts.

can fire as a blast... at what strength again?

Strength 3 AP6.

Hey, on the plus side that's great against jungle fighter guardsmen in close order drill! Not much else.

focusedfire wrote:you have IE(Imperial Eldar)My nickname for this Codex.

Oh my. The Imperial Seer Council led by The Mighty Imperial Creed...

Thimn wrote:
Who isn't going to include at least 2 Vendettas? 4 Russ Varients?

Not me. 208 pieces to assemble, so I heard, two of them clog up half the table, and moving will be a PITA on any table with some terrain on it.

I'm an avid Guard player and am eagerly awaiting this new codex, just like everyone else. Well, like most people.

Taking an objective look at things, maybe there are some things in the rumours that don't make sense or just plain suck. But there are some interesting new things too. If the book didn't change much, we'd all cry that we'd been forced to bend over and take it. If the book changes too much, we say we've been betrayed.

The things that I wanted from the codex are not going to be the same as what anyone else wanted. There's a spectrum of issues: some players just seem to want the powergame, cheese-filled army to decimate anything put in their path to those who cared less about annihilation and want something true to IG roots. Every army can powergame and every army has the chance to create a fluffy list - can the two be compatible...? It seems not; not in Guard, and not in other armies either.

Let's consider a recent example: didn't Ork players face the same thing before their codex came out? They used to be whipping boys, now they're competitve, AND still, Ork players moan about this or that in their book.

So these are my points:
What chance did GW realistically have of making a book that would win favour?
How would people like such a book to be created?
And, if we did get the book that we all wanted, surely the only realistic direction for future books is disappointment?

Neil wrote:
I started to type a reply with maths and stuff, but then I remembered the old adage about arguing with a brick wall.

That's a little snotty. I'm not aware of any math that show the Plasma Gun not the most effective special (barring certain circumstances). I know I'd like to see any evidence that it's not.

Vaktathi wrote:[
What about the Grenade Launcher? Only S6 sure, but still great for hacking at AV10/11 vehicles and can glance AV12, and can supplement anti-infantry firepower for only 5pts I think?

It's what I've been looking at more than anything.

Well, as long as your buying the Grenade launcher for it's price, or it's ability to move and shoot coupled with it's price, you're ok. If you're buying it because you honestly think it replaces the PG, you're going to have troubles. Look, this isn't advanced mathhammer: the Plasma gun has higher S, way better AP, and can get one more shot than the Grenade Launcher, at the same range, while the GLs big thing is that it can move and shoot and law down a S3 blast. Those are neat abilities, and in this new book and in 5th edition I think they're worth the 5pts GW is asking. The GL simply isn't a wall to wall replacement for the PG, simply because of terminators and monstrous creatures. The PG is good against them, the GL is very bad.

I think the GL has a place in IG armies to an extent that it did not, IMO, have before. First off, I want to make sure everybody is hip to the fact that the backbone heavy weapon of IG squads is the autocannon. It's cheap, and it's the only IG heavy that's genuinely good at it's job (along with the LC, to a much lesser extent). The AC is the same cost as the HB, but has +2s, +12" range, and the same AP. The HB is ~25% against T4, and roughly twice as good against T3, but worse against T5 and up and anything with armor. With no shortage of HB shots (or lasgun shots) available to the IG, I think the AC makes the HB nearly obsolete. The ML costs more than the AC, and only 5pts less than the LC. There is an argument to be made about versatility, but not a good one, IMO. The lascannon is still better against MCs and AV12-14 (although AV12 is close with the AC), and is cheap enough to field, but the days of relying on lascannons for popping heavy armor are done.

What this means is that I project top notch IG armies will rely on ACs and LCs almost exclusively in their line squads (if indeed they include any line squads at all). In the old book, there were three archtypes of varying popularlity: HB/f for cheap screeing and mobility, AC/PG for anti-transport, and LC/PG for big stuff. Since you can now get AC/GL for the same price as HB/F, I think that config will emerge as the best front rank squad config. AC/PG will still be good, but pricier than the AC/GL, making it either a front line choice when there are spare points to burn or a mid rank choice for infantry heavy armies. LC/PG will still make up the bulk of the firing line, although depending on how many AC/PG squads are included, LC/PG might now be less than half of the squads in an 1850 army.

So, if you want to replace the cheap mobile power of the flamer, than the GL is a great choice. Less damage per shot, but far more shots on average per game. Couple it with the AC for decent anti-transport firepower, and you've got a nice squad, but I can't see fielding more than 2 of these in standard list, 4 if running infantry heavy. For the rest of the army (assuming 6-8 total infantry squads) I'd go AC/PG x2-3, and LC/PGx2-4. The more options you have to deal with AV14 in the rest of your army (vendettas, vets with melta, command squads in chimeras), the fewer lascannons you need.

Of course, this raises the uncomfortable question of "how essential are infantry squads now, anyway?" I'd argue that they have 4 basic uses:
1) they can pack a plasma gun
2) They can claim and hold objectives
3) They can screen more valuable squads
4) The can still take a heavy weapon

I think that those are things that are good, and are worth including, but the fourth one, the heavy weapon, just isn't as wonderful as perhaps it used to be. IG squads and heavies are cheap enough to be worth including, but it's important at all times to remember that they have uses and value outside of their heavy weapon.

Spamming PG/AC basic infantry squads at what?...75 pts a pop? Sounds like a great idea to me...

Konrad Carstein wrote:I'm an avid Guard player and am eagerly awaiting this new codex, just like everyone else. Well, like most people.

Taking an objective look at things, maybe there are some things in the rumours that don't make sense or just plain suck. But there are some interesting new things too. If the book didn't change much, we'd all cry that we'd been forced to bend over and take it. If the book changes too much, we say we've been betrayed.

I think you're projecting emotions, but I see what you're saying. Creating a codex is a balance between not completely invaliding veterans armies while still making the army fresh an exciting for new players to the army, and the old guys as well.

The things that I wanted from the codex are not going to be the same as what anyone else wanted. There's a spectrum of issues: some players just seem to want the powergame, cheese-filled army to decimate anything put in their path to those who cared less about annihilation and want something true to IG roots. Every army can powergame and every army has the chance to create a fluffy list - can the two be compatible...? It seems not; not in Guard, and not in other armies either.

Well, you're rimshot against powergamers aside, I think the Ork book is both true to Ork roots, fluffy as hell, and hard as nails. Current marines play more like Space Marines should than ever, and that book is certainly competitive. Ditto Eldar.

Let's consider a recent example: didn't Ork players face the same thing before their codex came out? They used to be whipping boys, now they're competitve, AND still, Ork players moan about this or that in their book.

Well, I don't know much about what Ork players en masse moan about, but there are some stinkers of units in that book. Tankbustas, flashgitz, and looted wagons are all clearly suboptimal compared to the rest of the codex.

I think you're confusing acceptance and appreciation with unwavering devotion, which isn't really fair.

So these are my points:
What chance did GW realistically have of making a book that would win favour?
How would people like such a book to be created?
And, if we did get the book that we all wanted, surely the only realistic direction for future books is disappointment?

Win favour with the bulk of IG players? It's pretty good. We're not going to stop playing, and just having a codex built for the modern game is a huge step up, all other considerations ignored.

I think people just see totally obviously bad units, and that angers them. If a casual read through of rumors makes it clear that stormtroopers are overcosted, how was this not discovered during design? Some of the complaining will subside when people actually try the stuff out, but look at the Ork book: we though Tankbustas were overpriced garbage when the codex, leaked, and people still think that now.

And no matter how good a book is when it is released, the game changes (new editions) and the environment changes (new codices change the field of play).

Polonius wrote:
AC/PG will still be good, but pricier.

Wasn't it established that this is the same points still (one went up, the other down)?

I'd also say that the Flamer option is still a good one as it negates the need to hit and ignores cover. Its liability is range of course.

Overall, a good post and some well-thought out points.

As you say, there is now the possibility of doing away with the infantry-squad gunline mentality although it will be interesting to see how this works out in game.

Deadshane1 wrote:Spamming PG/AC basic infantry squads at what?...75 pts a pop? Sounds like a great idea to me...

It's cheap, and it combines the two IG weapons that actually excel at their job, and it has great synergy.

I'd go so far as to argue that if you take enough meltas in other places, AC/PG is the only squad build you need.

Konrad Carstein wrote:

Polonius wrote:
AC/PG will still be good, but pricier.

Wasn't it established that this is the same points still (one went up, the other down)?

He meant pricier than the AC/GL combo.

Konrad Carstein wrote:

Polonius wrote:
AC/PG will still be good, but pricier.

Wasn't it established that this is the same points still (one went up, the other down)?

I meant pricier than AC/GL. I edited my post to make it easier to read. In actual terms, the AC/PG squad dropped 10pts.

I'd also say that the Flamer option is still a good one as it negates the need to hit and ignores cover. Its liability is range of course.

The flamer is still going to have it's admirers, to be sure. I think if you play against more horde orks, you'll like it more, while if there are more Mech marines you'd want GLs for cheap specials.

As you say, there is now the possibility of doing away with the infantry-squad gunline mentality although it will be interesting to see how this works out in game.

I'm not sure the IG gunline is dead, but we finally have some other options, and the heart of the old gunline, the lascannon, just doesn't cut it against heavy tanks anymore.

Polonius wrote:

Konrad Carstein wrote:I'm an avid Guard player and am eagerly awaiting this new codex, just like everyone else. Well, like most people.

Taking an objective look at things, maybe there are some things in the rumours that don't make sense or just plain suck. But there are some interesting new things too. If the book didn't change much, we'd all cry that we'd been forced to bend over and take it. If the book changes too much, we say we've been betrayed.

I think you're projecting emotions, but I see what you're saying. Creating a codex is a balance between not completely invaliding veterans armies while still making the army fresh an exciting for new players to the army, and the old guys as well.

The things that I wanted from the codex are not going to be the same as what anyone else wanted. There's a spectrum of issues: some players just seem to want the powergame, cheese-filled army to decimate anything put in their path to those who cared less about annihilation and want something true to IG roots. Every army can powergame and every army has the chance to create a fluffy list - can the two be compatible...? It seems not; not in Guard, and not in other armies either.

Well, you're rimshot against powergamers aside, I think the Ork book is both true to Ork roots, fluffy as hell, and hard as nails. Current marines play more like Space Marines should than ever, and that book is certainly competitive. Ditto Eldar.

Let's consider a recent example: didn't Ork players face the same thing before their codex came out? They used to be whipping boys, now they're competitve, AND still, Ork players moan about this or that in their book.

Well, I don't know much about what Ork players en masse moan about, but there are some stinkers of units in that book. Tankbustas, flashgitz, and looted wagons are all clearly suboptimal compared to the rest of the codex.

I think you're confusing acceptance and appreciation with unwavering devotion, which isn't really fair.

So these are my points:
What chance did GW realistically have of making a book that would win favour?
How would people like such a book to be created?
And, if we did get the book that we all wanted, surely the only realistic direction for future books is disappointment?

Win favour with the bulk of IG players? It's pretty good. We're not going to stop playing, and just having a codex built for the modern game is a huge step up, all other considerations ignored.

I think people just see totally obviously bad units, and that angers them. If a casual read through of rumors makes it clear that stormtroopers are overcosted, how was this not discovered during design? Some of the complaining will subside when people actually try the stuff out, but look at the Ork book: we though Tankbustas were overpriced garbage when the codex, leaked, and people still think that now.

And no matter how good a book is when it is released, the game changes (new editions) and the environment changes (new codices change the field of play).

I take your points and acknowledge what you say regarding the recently released books.

It seems apparent that some things should have got picked up in design and playtesting (they do do playtesting, right?) but my more general point is about how they could please everyone - I don't believe they could. They haven't with other books and I doubt they will in future.

I dont think platoons/line squads will be going anywhere. In fact the book seems to be desingned specificly to ensure they continue to be the backbone of IG armies.

Personaly I think all vet squads would be to fragile, (the only alternative to platoons for troops *i think*). They will certainly have a place in the codex, but as support to line squads.

AlfredTheStrange wrote:I dont think platoons/line squads will be going anywhere. In fact the book seems to be desingned specificly to ensure they continue to be the backbone of IG armies.

I think you're right - the traditional IG army will still be troops and tanks. The main infantry squad now appears to have some better options for staying in the fight for longer, plus, they're still cheap, cheap, cheap.

AlfredTheStrange wrote:I dont think platoons/line squads will be going anywhere. In fact the book seems to be desingned specificly to ensure they continue to be the backbone of IG armies.

Personaly I think all vet squads would be to fragile, (the only alternative to platoons for troops *i think*). They will certainly have a place in the codex, but as support to line squads.

Agreed, the line squad will still be the backbone, but what I am looking forward to is the ability to vary the fireline. Reecius said las/plas will still be the main squad loadout, but I think the way heavy weapon squads are priced, you'll see more lascannons in hws, as opposed to line squads, where AC's will be much more prevalent.

My personal IG play style is firebase/maneuver element, aka hammer/anvil. I'm looking forward to testing the viability of using line squads without a heavy weapon to advance in force (where the grenade launcher will truly shine, especially in amoeba squads) supported by tanks and hws in cover. I'll probably use an al'Rahem platoon outflanking in cover, supported by Scout Sentinels, but the downside is it's a pretty pricey element, and makes the Astropath mandatory to increase the odds of getting the platoon and sentinels to come in together and on the same table edge.

I'm just disappointed (and a bit mystified) that Veterans will lose any chance (excepting Harker) to outflank. I had hoped to be able to outflank vets in chimeras. If I don't go the al'Rahem route, it'll probably be carapace vets in valks, but that makes my maneuver element smaller, and more fragile (having played mech Eldar, I know that 12/12/10 skimmers can be quite vulnerable to mass fire, which Valks/Vends will be sure to draw).

ubermosher wrote:

AlfredTheStrange wrote:I dont think platoons/line squads will be going anywhere. In fact the book seems to be desingned specificly to ensure they continue to be the backbone of IG armies.

Personaly I think all vet squads would be to fragile, (the only alternative to platoons for troops *i think*). They will certainly have a place in the codex, but as support to line squads.

Agreed, the line squad will still be the backbone, but what I am looking forward to is the ability to vary the fireline. Reecius said las/plas will still be the main squad loadout, but I think the way heavy weapon squads are priced, you'll see more lascannons in hws, as opposed to line squads, where AC's will be much more prevalent.

My personal IG play style is firebase/maneuver element, aka hammer/anvil. I'm looking forward to testing the viability of using line squads without a heavy weapon to advance in force (where the grenade launcher will truly shine, especially in amoeba squads) supported by tanks and hws in cover. I'll probably use an al'Rahem platoon outflanking in cover, supported by Scout Sentinels, but the downside is it's a pretty pricey element, and makes the Astropath mandatory to increase the odds of getting the platoon and sentinels to come in together and on the same table edge.

I'm just disappointed (and a bit mystified) that Veterans will lose any chance (excepting Harker) to outflank. I had hoped to be able to outflank vets in chimeras. If I don't go the al'Rahem route, it'll probably be carapace vets in valks, but that makes my maneuver element smaller, and more fragile (having played mech Eldar, I know that 12/12/10 skimmers can be quite vulnerable to mass fire, which Valks/Vends will be sure to draw).

Seeing the size of valks/vendetas I'm not sure I'll be using or that we'll be able to hide them, but that will be more clear as people play them. Myself I think chimeras will be the optimum delivery method for cost, even the valks will be nearly double the cost.

more often then not I play the hammer/anvil as well, and tend to play 2 heavy platoons, with 2-3 mechanized grenadier squads , backed by tanks. I havent done the math but I think, Vets in carapce with 3 specials, will be cheaper then a current kitted out grenadier squad, or marginaly more expensive.(im thinking 120-130pts range). Making this build stronger, if I take valks or even vendetta's I'll lose mobile elements, and I'm not sure of the survivability of these new skimers.

In summary I think a plain old chimera's with vets in em will be the most effective on a point for point basis . The special charecters look like they will also be viable, and their costs dont seem exorbative for what they do.

ubermosher wrote:Agreed, the line squad will still be the backbone, but what I am looking forward to is the ability to vary the fireline. Reecius said las/plas will still be the main squad loadout, but I think the way heavy weapon squads are priced, you'll see more lascannons in hws, as opposed to line squads, where AC's will be much more prevalent.

The requirement of Creed and bad voxes makes Kell pretty much required for HWS to be worthwhile. Without the orders might as well take more vendettas.

Reecius wrote:Line squads will nearly always be las plas, just like always.

I really doubt it. IG players have already moved away from las/plas, and I see nothing in the new codex that would bring them back into the ascendant. Autocannons are becoming "standard", both for being able to crack light vehicles/MCs and for the 5th ed maxim more shots > "better" shots.

Plasma guns are terribly mediocre at 15 points, especially since 5th ed makes them not really good at anything except fighting Nidzilla. MEQ turns a 3+ armor save into a 4+ cover save, and at ranges of 12" or less almost 1/3 of your plasma gunners die after firing. On average they'll kill .2 plasma gunners and .4 Marines after cover. If you're that close to MEQ, you're better off walking 6" and using a flamer.

Autocannons, Flamers, and the occasional Melta will be the new Line Squad build. Plasma is dead and a 15 pt cost per selection nails the coffin tight.

sourclams wrote:
Plasma guns are terribly mediocre at 15 points, especially since 5th ed makes them not really good at anything except fighting Nidzilla. MEQ turns a 3+ armor save into a 4+ cover save, and at ranges of 12" or less almost 1/3 of your plasma gunners die after firing. On average they'll kill .2 plasma gunners and .4 Marines after cover. If you're that close to MEQ, you're better off walking 6" and using a flamer.

Autocannons, Flamers, and the occasional Melta will be the new Line Squad build. Plasma is dead and a 15 pt cost per selection nails the coffin tight.

I hate to keep harping on this, but plasma does much more than kill Marines. It cracks 2+ armor. It's stength 7. It gets two shots at close range. It ignores FNP. It also has 24" range.

If you ever fight any of the following: Death Company, Plague Marines, Terminators, AV10-12, bikes, Monstrous Creatures of all sorts, Mega Nobz, Nobz with Painboy, or Jump assault troops of any sort, than the Plasma gun is the best weapon for the job over the flamer or grenade launcher, with only a few exceptions for the melta gun.

The plasma gun is still worth cost, is still good against it's intended targets, and will continue to be a key element of IG line squads.

LC are a bit better against straight up marines, but not in cover. They're both pretty good at killing light vehicles, but the lascannon costs a lot more.

Polonius wrote:

sourclams wrote:
Plasma guns are terribly mediocre at 15 points, especially since 5th ed makes them not really good at anything except fighting Nidzilla. MEQ turns a 3+ armor save into a 4+ cover save, and at ranges of 12" or less almost 1/3 of your plasma gunners die after firing. On average they'll kill .2 plasma gunners and .4 Marines after cover. If you're that close to MEQ, you're better off walking 6" and using a flamer.

Autocannons, Flamers, and the occasional Melta will be the new Line Squad build. Plasma is dead and a 15 pt cost per selection nails the coffin tight.

I hate to keep harping on this, but plasma does much more than kill Marines. It cracks 2+ armor. It's stength 7. It gets two shots at close range. It ignores FNP. It also has 24" range.

If you ever fight any of the following: Death Company, Plague Marines, Terminators, AV10-12, bikes, Monstrous Creatures of all sorts, Mega Nobz, Nobz with Painboy, or Jump assault troops of any sort, than the Plasma gun is the best weapon for the job over the flamer or grenade launcher, with only a few exceptions for the melta gun.

The plasma gun is still worth cost, is still good against it's intended targets, and will continue to be a key element of IG line squads.

....pretty much exactly what I'm thinking as well. Sold.

Polonius wrote:

sourclams wrote:
Plasma guns are terribly mediocre at 15 points, especially since 5th ed makes them not really good at anything except fighting Nidzilla. MEQ turns a 3+ armor save into a 4+ cover save, and at ranges of 12" or less almost 1/3 of your plasma gunners die after firing. On average they'll kill .2 plasma gunners and .4 Marines after cover. If you're that close to MEQ, you're better off walking 6" and using a flamer.

Autocannons, Flamers, and the occasional Melta will be the new Line Squad build. Plasma is dead and a 15 pt cost per selection nails the coffin tight.

I hate to keep harping on this, but plasma does much more than kill Marines. It cracks 2+ armor. It's stength 7. It gets two shots at close range. It ignores FNP. It also has 24" range.

If you ever fight any of the following: Death Company, Plague Marines, Terminators, AV10-12, bikes, Monstrous Creatures of all sorts, Mega Nobz, Nobz with Painboy, or Jump assault troops of any sort, than the Plasma gun is the best weapon for the job over the flamer or grenade launcher, with only a few exceptions for the melta gun.

The plasma gun is still worth cost, is still good against it's intended targets, and will continue to be a key element of IG line squads.

Sourclams is being a little sour there - it's only about 20% of rapid-firing guardsmen who fry themselves.

I agree with all your points on the value of plasma, Polonius. One of the approaches I'm toying with mentally, though, packs all the plasma into the PCS - run two 4x plasma PCS squads, and two 4x melta squads, all in Chimerae, backing up 8 line squads. Most tasks that require plasma require concentrated plasma, after all.

The autocannon is bargain-priced at 10 pts. However, it also shares roles with the Multilaser. Given how heavily-mechanized I like my Guard, I almost always have a surplus of multilaser fire, which reduces some of the value of the autocannon...which is why I generally run with lascannon squads. As the rumors of AC turrets for Chimerae didn't pan out, that's probably not going to change.

Well, don't forget that Multilasers generally can either fire or deliver their cargo of plasma death, and not both. At 55pts, the Chimera is almost worth buying simply as a transport, with the shots as gravy. I can see running 3xAC and 5xLC if you're packing multilasers, but I'm not one to rely on multilasers for much: they're too easy to stun/destroy/wreck. You can also drop one full PCS and a couple of squads and run two veteran squads in chimeras instead.

Idiot question!! How does plasma ignore FNP?

Scottywan82 wrote:Idiot question!! How does plasma ignore FNP?

AP 1 & 2 weapons negate FNP; see the 5th ed rulebook.

Plasma=Magic

sourclams wrote:

Reecius wrote:Line squads will nearly always be las plas, just like always.

I really doubt it. IG players have already moved away from las/plas,

I disagree. Been using las/plas lines squads backed up by Fire support squads in my IG and doing quite well. Finished in the top 30 at the Baltimore GT with them, in fact, with a 4-1 record. And I'm not a big tank user (got 'em, just seldom use 'em), it's only been in 5th ed that I've started adding a couple of hellhounds into the army. They took the place of the sentinels that gave up KP far too easily.
With that said, I'm still undecided on how I'll play it with the new codex. I've been considering hvy bolter/plasma for the line squads, backed up by PCS with autocannons, and maybe one AT lascannon squad per platoon. Griffons will likely replace the hellhounds. Only thing I haven't decided is Valk/Vendettas and/or Hardened Vet/Stormtroopers. I'll miss my deepstriking HdVet 3 melta squad, but outflanking vendettas may be able to fill that spot.

Ah. Thank you! Magic!

No, wait, Janthkin, I mean.

Squads I like..

heavy bolter + sniper rifle - perfectly matched range, perfectly matched battlefield role. Works well with FRFSRF (insofar as it wants to shoot at the same things your lasguns want to shoot at.)

autocannon + plasma gun - perfectly matched strength, mismatch on AP values and range. Much more flexible against all comers, but slightly inefficient.

Things I don't like in line squads...

lascannons - nothing like flipping a coin on a 65 point lascannon shot, then flipping some more coins on pen rolls and damage rolls. Their place is in heavy weapon squads, and I don't think they can really yield anything valuable in that role either. It's a shame, I have 15 painted teams.

grenade launchers - These really want to move and shoot to be interesting. I do like them, and like their cost. I just don't think they match up all that well with a heavy weapon. I think the sniper rifle is better with the heavy bolter, I think the plasma gun has more to give to the autocannon. The strength 6 doesn't match well with the strength 8 option of the missile launcher. It might math well in one of its firing modes with a mortar, but the strength 6 shot doesn't.

flamers - same as grenade launchers. They really want to move and fire, they don't seem to pair well with heavy weapons. Great in command squads and special weapons squads though.

missile launchers - their fire mode flexibility doesn't lend itself to any special weapons really, except maybe the grenade launcher, but strength 6 and strength 8 rarely are looking for the same targets. (toughness 6, armor 10-11)

I'm still thinking about toying with the 3x hydra unit. And as long as I'm doing that, I won't need nearly as many ACs in my foot platoons. So i think i might be using the more focused HB/sniper for a little bit.

I don't know, I think that hellhounds still work, but I think they may be replaced by banewolfs against SM and CSM armies.

Just because the range is lower, it doesn't mean its worthless. It lost 6 inches but its still one of the only templates that don't have to start from the gun. You can still place the template OVER a gun line and ignore the new 4+ cover because they're firing through their own men or through enemy units.

This still makes it a great weapon. Whats that, a gretchin mob in front of an ork boy mob hmmm... I'll just launch my template over the gretchin and into the boys and ignore the 4+ cover save from the gretchin.

Or tank shock the Grots and THEN shoot the boys.

Can't tank shock AND fire. The crew are too focused on driving really, really fast.

Polonius wrote:
I hate to keep harping on this, but plasma does much more than kill Marines. It cracks 2+ armor. It's stength 7. It gets two shots at close range. It ignores FNP. It also has 24" range.

If you ever fight any of the following: Death Company, Plague Marines, Terminators, AV10-12, bikes, Monstrous Creatures of all sorts, Mega Nobz, Nobz with Painboy, or Jump assault troops of any sort, than the Plasma gun is the best weapon for the job over the flamer or grenade launcher, with only a few exceptions for the melta gun.

The plasma gun is still worth cost, is still good against it's intended targets, and will continue to be a key element of IG line squads.

I can't argue with your points. But I'm actually switching my infantry squads from plasma to grenade launchers because they're cheaper, can allow my squad to move and still get a 24" range S6 shot, and because of the availability of cover. On an anecdotal note, I'm switching because somehow in 5th edition I'm defying the odds and rolling more overheats than before. I'm planning on using plasma in pcs's and veteran squads, likely with carapace. As noted above, any job that needs plasma usually needs massed plasma.

I need to playtest it extensively, but I think (just like a good Cadian prefers) that AC/GL might be the best punch for a line squad point-for-point. Of course YMMV and las/plas and ac/plas are still quality load-outs.

I've got to disagree with pretty much everything you said.

Polonius wrote:[If you ever fight any of the following: Death Company, Plague Marines, Terminators, AV10-12, bikes, Monstrous Creatures of all sorts, Mega Nobz, Nobz with Painboy, or Jump assault troops of any sort, than the Plasma gun is the best weapon for the job over the flamer or grenade launcher, with only a few exceptions for the melta gun.

Let's take these point by point.

Plague Marines: Not something you're going to be shooting at with a line squad, except as a last resort. PMs are encountered offensively in rhinos or defensively holding objectives, and are a prime candidate for something you shoot with a Leman Russ. Top priority for an IG player is going to be cracking the rhino open and burying the insides with ordinance. A plasma gun doesn't really help IG do this except en masse, and will inhibit them severely if you end up taking so many that the points costs prohibits having other things (removing the 'en masse' bit). You're much better off using Leman Russ plasma sponsons rather than taking 2-3 plasma guns.

Terminators: Does anybody still use shooting Terminators? If so, they're in cover using their 24" range and heavy weapons. And that's best case scenario, it's much more likely that Termies are the 3++ assault variety riding dirty in a LRC. Plasma guns do feth all versus AV14; you're better off taking a cheaper meltagun in hopes of popping the raider before they disembark or simply shooting the Scout squads holding his objective (with the 3+ cover save that plasma does feth all against). Again, Leman Russ plasma sponsons are superior anti-Terminator, not 2-3 plasma guns.

AV10-12: Vendettas and autocannons will be the work horses that wipe out light armor. The plasma gun will just be an expensive redundancy. Redundancy is good, but you may as well have plasma cannon sponsons on your LR.

MCs: Plasma guns are probably at their most efficient versus MCs, but save for Nidzilla and specific Daemons builds, you can just bury them with autocannon/Vendetta lascannon fire. Again it's an expensive redundancy.

Mega Nobz: Plasma gun fails utterly. 2 wounds with the ability to allocate with variable combi weapons makes plasma guns all kinds of worthless. Melta gun is far better at short ranges for instant death ability, and if you're playing someone dumb enough to foot slog mega nobz, just shoot them with your plasma cannon sponsons.

FNP Nob[Biker]z: Again fails utterly. You must either instant death them or fill them with so many wounds that it overwhelms FNP, and plasma guns do neither. Psychic Choir and Vendettas/LRs inflicting ID casualties will be how IG players deal with super elite Orks, not plasma guns.

Assault Troops: Quantity of shots kills assault troops, not quality. And when you do need quality shots, LR plasma sponsons do the job far better for a near equivalent cost.

Edit: Also, you left off one two *very* legitimate threats to IG, seer council [jetbikes] and the fast Tyranid beast horde. Plasma guns are worthless against both and honestly will probably kill more of your own guys than they would seer council.

The plasma gun is still worth cost, is still good against it's intended targets, and will continue to be a key element of IG line squads.

I would really ask what basis you have for this claim, something other than just a list of targets that it used to be effective against last edition. The only army that I see plasma having anything near its old effectiveness against is Nidzilla, against everything else there are other, better options that a plethora of plasma guns only limits.

Personnally I use a mix of Las/gl and AC/Flamer, sure they don't fit but they work pretty well against orks. I may switch my ACs to HBs though.

sourclams while I do agree with some of your points, metla guns are almost entirely useless for fire line guard, by the time you can use them the enemy is already at your door step assaulting you. At least with a plasma gun you can get off a couple of shots without having to run up closer to do so.

For general fire line squads of guardsmen either AC/PG or LC/PG is still going to be the way to go. The Grenade Launcher is just laughable...I'm sorry I really think it is, it's only advantage of moving and shooting is silly, guard don't want to get closer to the enemy unless the enemy are Tau. EVERY other army in 40k is better in HtH. Unless you can annihilate the unit you're closing in on the guard don't want to move forward, or move at all, they want to stay still and light up the enemy from a distance. I know there are more mobile IG builds but if you're in a Chimera or Valk you can get close enough with a melta gun, which brings me to my point of the only place melta guns belong, in mobile, mounted units. The Flamer has a similar use to that of a melta gun, just vs infantry, again thought it needs to be in a mobile squad, a normal guard unit running up to another unit to try and flame them is just delivering themselves to the enemy.

And why does everyone always assume that your opponent will be able to hide their entire army in cover? Do people play with a board where all the terrain is literally forests? And especially for guard who basically make their opponent attempt to get into HtH combat, at some point in time crossing the board your opponent has to be out of cover. It's at that point where the lascannon just out shines every other heavy weapon option.

A mix is the way to go, AC's for troops in cover, LC's for heavier troops out of cover, flamers/meltas for mounted mobile squads, and plasma guns for fire line guard. I think the only "useless" (IMO) weapon is the grenade launcher and a large portion of the community seems to agree with me there.

I have to admit, I hadn't thought of that. 40pt plasma cannon sponsons vs 15pt plasma guns really puts it in perspective.

Now I realize you might not be able to shoot all that every turn, but sitting still one turn you could slag an MEQ squad.

I'm personally using HB/GL squads and AC/GL squads. I can hit light vehicles and infantry and it doesn't use up too much in the way of points. I'd much rather Keep the tank-busters for tanks.

I'm seriously considering some upgrades to my LRBTs though. Maybe some plasma sponsons.

The main thing Plasmaguns bring to IG is rapidfire ap2. And while this is nothing to be dismissed (many times has it saved me), the 15pt price tag is having me rethink where I get my ap2.

Executioner
Demolisher
Vendetta
PC sentinels (perhaps...)
meltaguns
ect

Personally, I feel that a Executioner or Demolisher paired with a Vendetta, combined with a large amount of infantry based meltaguns will be a strong setup. I don't plan on using much in the form of infantry based plasma (or lascannons for that matter).

I don't use meltas for anything besides sneaking up on tanks. Plasma is definitely better than meltas for infantry and heavy infantry.

Shep wrote:Squads I like..

heavy bolter + sniper rifle - perfectly matched range, perfectly matched battlefield role. Works well with FRFSRF (insofar as it wants to shoot at the same things your lasguns want to shoot at.)

autocannon + plasma gun - perfectly matched strength, mismatch on AP values and range. Much more flexible against all comers, but slightly inefficient.

Things I don't like in line squads...

lascannons - nothing like flipping a coin on a 65 point lascannon shot, then flipping some more coins on pen rolls and damage rolls. Their place is in heavy weapon squads, and I don't think they can really yield anything valuable in that role either. It's a shame, I have 15 painted teams.

grenade launchers - These really want to move and shoot to be interesting. I do like them, and like their cost. I just don't think they match up all that well with a heavy weapon. I think the sniper rifle is better with the heavy bolter, I think the plasma gun has more to give to the autocannon. The strength 6 doesn't match well with the strength 8 option of the missile launcher. It might math well in one of its firing modes with a mortar, but the strength 6 shot doesn't.

flamers - same as grenade launchers. They really want to move and fire, they don't seem to pair well with heavy weapons. Great in command squads and special weapons squads though.

missile launchers - their fire mode flexibility doesn't lend itself to any special weapons really, except maybe the grenade launcher, but strength 6 and strength 8 rarely are looking for the same targets. (toughness 6, armor 10-11)

I'm still thinking about toying with the 3x hydra unit. And as long as I'm doing that, I won't need nearly as many ACs in my foot platoons. So i think i might be using the more focused HB/sniper for a little bit.

Where are you planning on getting your anti-tank? PCS's/SWS with Meltas in Chimeras?

vonjankmon wrote:sourclams while I do agree with some of your points, metla guns are almost entirely useless for fire line guard

Except against two wound assault units like MANz and, more importantly, Nobz/Nob Bikers. Against the LRC they become much more impactful as well. I don't claim that melta guns *belong* in line squads, but they're going to have more and better uses against legitimate threats.

And why does everyone always assume that your opponent will be able to hide their entire army in cover? Do people play with a board where all the terrain is literally forests?

If you play with the recommended 25% terrain coverage that the rulebook describes, everything will be in cover. It's a simple fact of 5th ed. If people are somehow lining up 24" shots that deny cover, you've either got some massive terrain pieces in the corners or not enough cover.

halonachos wrote:I don't use meltas for anything besides sneaking up on tanks. Plasma is definitely better than meltas for infantry and heavy infantry.

I'm more worried about when the tanks sneak up on my infantry.

Ozymandias wrote:Where are you planning on getting your anti-tank? PCS's/SWS with Meltas in Chimeras?

I'm thinking about running half platoon half veteran structure. Company command squads and veterans in chimeras with max meltas are good solid tank kill for tanks that come out to mid-field to interact with me.

3x hydras or 2x2 hydras will be part of my devilfish/wave serpent/valkyrie kill. Along with chimera/rhino duty. I like vendettas for armor 12 kill, although I'm still liking valkyries more for the slot.

I feel like the 3x meltas in the SWS just don't give me the confidence I need to count on them. I want 2 melta hits per round.

Long range heavy armor like predators/leman russes/hammerheads are currently a conundrum for me. I don't really have an answer for them built into any of my lists yet. I can tell you that i will drive chimeras or fly valkyries loaded with melta vets over to them to kill them, but i think you know that this plan is a lot more easy to counter with good generalship. mobile meltas have been and will continue to be the perfect counter for short range heavy tanks, of which there are a ton of. But physically screened heavy tanks that can be effective from 36" out have a fantastic matchup v. meltas. I think build for survivability and ignore will be my first choice. The long range MBT seems to be pretty marginal in terms of firepower. It's always been the close range vehicles that inspire the most fear.

You got any thoughts on how to answer the screened heavy armor? Pask + vanquisher matches up against them very well, but he just doesn't have a job to do in matchups without long range heavy armor. Enough lascannons can at least keep them somewhat suppressed for most of the game. but that is a costly amount of lascannons, and unless you are rolling hot, doesn't always provide a permanent solution.

Question for middle:

How much is a CCS standard bearer?

Shep wrote:
You got any thoughts on how to answer the screened heavy armor? Pask + vanquisher matches up against them very well, but he just doesn't have a job to do in matchups without long range heavy armor. Enough lascannons can at least keep them somewhat suppressed for most of the game. but that is a costly amount of lascannons, and unless you are rolling hot, doesn't always provide a permanent solution.

The thing that worries me about the Paskquisher w/LC is for 10 points less I can get 2 HWS for 6 lascannon that are easier to put in cover, can sit on my objective in Capture and Control missions and also can receive the twin-link order... albeit on LD7 (Why Robin, why? ) .

Edit: Math is not my friend.

okay, if command squads are really 80 points, we need to stop talking about our infantry squads as if they are going to be any cheaper.

sourclams wrote:
I really doubt it. IG players have already moved away from las/plas,

For what it is worth, I haven't moved away from them, and I see no reason why I ever would. They're still very much needed for any serious firebase. Yes, if every inch of the TT is cover, they wouldn't be worth it but in fact, it isn't that easy to obscure tanks or MC's from several lascannon positioned at various angles, and I'd rather the Fex or Broadside has a 4+ save than a 2+ save. If anything gets closer (Wingrant, Termis), adding the PG to the LC is still a good idea.

Plasmaguns are incredibly useful at 12". Why would there automatically be cover? That's situational.

sourclams wrote:
If you play with the recommended 25% terrain coverage that the rulebook describes, everything will be in cover.

Rubbish. We play with at least 35 % coverage, and there's still plenty of potential to move around cover, or to deploy with various angles. If it is cover that precludes the use of low-AP guns, issue them a "on my mark" command or whatver it will be called, and have them re-roll their saves.

Oops, double post.

Long range anti tank?

Vendetta.

Being able to make a scouting move to the flanks and hit side armor with 3 TL LC is a powerful asset for IG.

Only LandRaiders and Monoliths will be able to shrug off that firepower hitting side armor. AV13 on LRBT will help, but they most likely will be stunned.

sourclams wrote:
If you play with the recommended 25% terrain coverage that the rulebook describes, everything will be in cover. It's a simple fact of 5th ed. If people are somehow lining up 24" shots that deny cover, you've either got some massive terrain pieces in the corners or not enough cover.

Because we are using 25% cover does not mean that 25% of the board is covered in area terrain. Yes in 5th ed cover saves are prevalent but almost every squad will leave cover at some point, this is where PG's shine. also deepstrikers rarely come down in terrain intentionally in my area (well, mine do but most players are afraid of 1's.) MEQ players often forsake cover in their rush to close the gap, bikes rarely find themselves in area terrain etc.. In short while cover is a part of the game don't discount valuable weapon choices because they won't always be at their peak efficency! Are you going to stop taking lrbt's because they miss?

Kungfuhustler wrote:okay, if command squads are really 80 points, we need to stop talking about our infantry squads as if they are going to be any cheaper.

... Wait what? All the rumours I saw said 50pts. Did I miss something?

Honestly, as far as I'm concerned, command squads cost 140, because I can't see a reason not to bring Creed.

And, with such long range of orders, he might actually make Stormtroopers useful. With "On my mark", and the "Behind Enemy Lines" Order/Operation they'll be tits at flushing out those pesky squads of Devastators or Stern Guard hiding in a building in the back field.

Anyone else think that if Hellguns were Assault 2 (or even 1) they'd be actually worth their points?

I really don't see the 'downside' to Plasma Guns. Their uses have hardly changed other than the abundant cover - they're still the best weapon to pair with Autocannons because it's constant S7 firepower.

5th Ed's cover rules don't change that.

ubermosher wrote:

Shep wrote:
You got any thoughts on how to answer the screened heavy armor? Pask + vanquisher matches up against them very well, but he just doesn't have a job to do in matchups without long range heavy armor. Enough lascannons can at least keep them somewhat suppressed for most of the game. but that is a costly amount of lascannons, and unless you are rolling hot, doesn't always provide a permanent solution.

The thing that worries me about the Paskquisher w/LC is for 10 points less I can get 2 HWS for 6 lascannon that are easier to put in cover, can sit on my objective in Capture and Control missions and also can receive the twin-link order... albeit on LD7 (Why Robin, why? ) .

Edit: Math is not my friend.

You've got scoring units, I've got armor 14. Pask can be shaken, lascannons lose output as soon as they take 2 wounds. 3 (or maybe 4.5, especially if you use C&K or a commissar lord) strength 9 hits, versus 0.66 strength 10 hits and 0.66 strength 9+2d6 pen hits.

Truthfully, I like them both for armor 13 killing. But I wouldn't bet against Pask in this head to head if we are both shooting at russes. Especially if those russes are shooting back.

AlexCage wrote:

Anyone else think that if Hellguns were Assault 2 (or even 1) they'd be actually worth their points?

Aren't stormtroopers rumored to come with hellpistols for an Assault 1 (albeit 6") shot?

H.B.M.C. wrote:I really don't see the 'downside' to Plasma Guns. Their uses have hardly changed other than the abundant cover - they're still the best weapon to pair with Autocannons because it's constant S7 firepower.

5th Ed's cover rules don't change that.

Again people keep saying this but I have yet to see how it becomes true. The plasma gun is "constant S7 firepower" at 50% of the range and 150% of the cost compared to the autocannon. Equipping 8 squads with plasma guns will run you 120 points. Those guns will:

not kill light armor as well as a Vendetta at ranges of 13" or more

not kill MEQ or FNP troops as well as 6 Leman russ plasma sponsons at 12", and far worse at 13"-36".

not kill hordes as well as a flamer for 3x the cost

not kill AV14 at all

not kill assault Terminators

However, you will almost guaranteed lose 1 model the first time you shoot all 8 to Gets Hot!

So I'm not trying to be smarter or more clever than anybody, but plasma guns aren't free, and I can't conceive of any fight save for Nidzilla where I wouldn't rather have the Vendetta or the 6 sponson plasma cannons. If you can show me clearly the scenario where the plasma gun becomes worth 15 points a pop, I'll happily accommodate your point of view.

Biophysic wrote:

AlexCage wrote:

Anyone else think that if Hellguns were Assault 2 (or even 1) they'd be actually worth their points?

Aren't stormtroopers rumored to come with hellpistols for an Assault 1 (albeit 6") shot?

GREAT CAESAR'S GHOST! I totally missed that little tidbit. AND a CCW! Ok so I'm a little more open to the idea of stupid expensive stormtroopers. If only they could assault the turn they fall out of a Valkyrie.

i think I see what you're saying Sourclams, but you're making i think three broad mistakes:

1) Plasma guns are 15pts, sure, but they're really a 10pt upgrade from a GL, as it's hard to imagine an IG squad not having a special weapon. So 8 of them (which is quite a lot, btw. I've been talking about running maybe 6 squads with them) is only 80pts.

2) Plasma guns in line squads are really, really hard to silence. Outside of assault, not much is going to do enough wounds to reliably kill the gun. Vehicles are much easier to shake or stun. In addition, 2 infantry squads can split their firepower and force the enemy to split fire, rather than focus all on one tank.

3) You're confusing a bit the notion of "best use of 10pts" and "best way to use line squads." Once you've made the investment in a line squad, I want to maximize it's utility. Compared to the other specials, the Plasma gun is far superior, not regarding points. I don't think you can really argue that the Plasma gun adds high strength and low AP to a squad, the only question is its relative worth.

Kungfuhustler wrote:okay, if command squads are really 80 points, we need to stop talking about our infantry squads as if they are going to be any cheaper.

Woah, wait, what? Where did you hear this?

sourclams wrote:Again people keep saying this but I have yet to see how it becomes true.

There are a few flaws in your argument. Let's go over them.

sourclams wrote:The plasma gun is "constant S7 firepower" at 50% of the range...

Range has never been an issue before, why would it be now?

sourclams wrote:...and 150% of the cost compared to the autocannon.

The Autocannon went down 5 points, the plasma gun went up 5 points - net effect = 0. It's the same cost as it was in the last Codex, now on a cheaper squad. In effect, the AC/Plas squad has gone down 10 points, and gained Ld8 and (useless) Frags.

So claiming it costs too much doesn't work.

sourclams wrote:not kill light armor as well as a Vendetta at ranges of 13" or more

You seem to be implying that you somehow have to make a choice between the two - as if it's an either/or prospect; Vendettas or Plasma Guns. This is simply not the case. You're going to be bringing Infantry Squads anyway, so might as well get the best bang for your buck out of them. I'd say a 75 point AC/Plas Squad is a good bet. We used to pay 95 for our Las/Plas Squads, and people usually brought 6-8 of those, so this is 20 points saved over 6-8 squads, or, enough to buy a Vendetta.

sourclams wrote:not kill MEQ or FNP troops as well as 6 Leman russ plasma sponsons at 12", and far worse at 13"-36".

6 LR w/Plasma Sponsons costs 1140 points (IIRC). 8 AC/Plasma squads cost half that. And you're really going to argue that comparing 6 Battlecannons and 12 Plasma Cannons to 8 Autocannons and 8 Plasma Guns is a fair comparison? Talk about a tautology... Jesus... I mean, the Reaver Titan is better than a AC/Plas squad as well, and better than a Russ - should we stop taking 190 point Russes because a 2000 point Titan is better?

sourclams wrote:not kill hordes as well as a flamer for 3x the cost

Really? A weapon not designed to fight hordes isn't as good as a weapon designed to fight hordes? Say it ain't so!!!

Maybe I should stop taking Flamers becuase they're not as good as killing tanks as Lascannons are because that's what your argument here basically is Soulclams.

sourclams wrote:not kill AV14 at all

And it's never been able to, which is why we have other choices in our Codex... just like we have done for 15-fething-years.

Again, Sourclams, you seem to think this is an either/or prospect. If I bring ACs/Plasma Guns, I won't be able to/won't be allowed to bring anti-AV14 killing weapons. What makes you think this? What's stopping you from taking both abundant S7 firepower and Flamers/Heavy Bolters/BattleCannons and Vendetta-borne Lascannons/Meltaguns?

Why are you being forced to choose between the three?

sourclams wrote:not kill assault Terminators

Based on?

sourclams wrote:However, you will almost guaranteed lose 1 model the first time you shoot all 8 to Gets Hot!

Again, how is this any different to how it was before? Now I know you'll say "It's +5 points now!"... but no, as I said, the net price for the unit has gone down, and the net price for the weapon combo hasn't changed. Losing Guardsmen to overheat is nothing new. How does this Codex change that? Why is it suddenly unacceptable?

sourclams wrote:and I can't conceive of any fight save for Nidzilla where I wouldn't rather have the Vendetta or the 6 sponson plasma cannons.

Again implying that you somehow can't have both.

sourclams wrote:If you can show me clearly the scenario where the plasma gun becomes worth 15 points a pop, I'll happily accommodate your point of view.

It's not worth 15 points unless it has something to counter-balance its cost. Taking Plasma Guns with other Plasma Guns makes them over-all more expensive (current 4 Plasma Guns = 40 points, new 4 Plasma Guns = 60 points - that's a bad trade). But in a squad with an Autocannon or, hell, even a Lascannon, it balance itself out because the +5 for the Plasma Gun is countered by the -5 for the AC/LC.