You can field an IG artillery company or tank legion and tell your opponent that at least you're not playing an Imperial Navy detachment also featuring Imperial Guard.

Death By Monkeys wrote:Oh hey, middle - one thing I've noticed missing both from your write up as well as the other detailed rumors I've seen lately: Track Guards for vehicles. Are these no longer available? I mean, they're a cheap way to keep from getting the Immobilised=Destroyed result in squadrons which is what everyone wants. Thusly, GW does not offer them. Even for an exorbitant price.

All the Imperial Guard tanks I bought came with trackguards on the (new~ish) vehicle accessories sprue. I don't recall them replacing this.

So the armour on a Vendetta is 12/12/10? Why is everyone getting so riled up then?

Because 3 TL las cannons = a world of pain at long range. Anything with that sort of firepower should be able to make 140pts on the first shot let alone for the whole game

Quick question:

How much is an Apothecary in a Marine Command Squad? I'm pretty sure he comes standard with the unit (ie. not an upgrade), but if you break down the costs of the unit, how much is he?

ShumaGorath wrote:...and after that they get to zoom around tank shocking everything on the table at the same time.

You keep saying this. Non-tank units don't Tank Shock, in the absence of some piece of wargear that lets them do so.

ShumaGorath wrote:Then what is the str 4 large blast he mentioned? Or is that the hellfury missiles stats? Why would you ever switch to a one shot missile with stats like that...? Not that it means much, nothing is going to survive 9 TL lascanons (as one god damn killpoint) and after that they get to zoom around tank shocking everything on the table at the same time.

My initial thought is that even a squadron of 3 is overkill, but running the mathhammer, I get that you do need a squadron of 3 to "guarantee" a kill of an AV 14.

ShumaGorath wrote:
Then what is the str 4 large blast he mentioned? Or is that the hellfury missiles stats? Why would you ever switch to a one shot missile with stats like that...? Not that it means much, nothing is going to survive 9 TL lascanons (as one god damn killpoint) and after that they get to zoom around tank shocking everything on the table at the same time

Why do you think the Vendettas will be able to Tank Shock? Only vehicles classified as Tank can do that. Ork vehicles can do it if they buy the Reinforced Ram upgrade. I have not seen any rumor yet that lists the Vendetta as a Tank or that specify an upgrade for the Vendetta that allows it to Tank Shock.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Quick question:

How much is an Apothecary in a Marine Command Squad? I'm pretty sure he comes standard with the unit (ie. not an upgrade), but if you break down the costs of the unit, how much is he?

The Command Squad is essentially 5 Vanguard Veterans, which is 100 from its price tag...

That means the Apothecary costs 15 points.

3xTwin-linked BS3 Lascannons gives 9/4 = 2.25hits per turn, at 130 pts, or 57.7 pts per hit

3x Lascannons in HWS gives 1.5hits per turn, at 105pts, or 70 pts per hit

Vendetta is immune to fire below S6 in most aspects
HWS gets instant killed by S6

Vendetta is transport, can move and shoot...etc

Edit: but lascannon is really not what it used to be with when talking about things like AV14 in cover. The good news is that IG gets more
AV14 spam than everyone else!

Great stuff middle. Keep it up.

Can I give normal Shock troopers pistols and CC weapons?

Which units can get Shotguns?

Asmodai wrote:

Death By Monkeys wrote:Oh hey, middle - one thing I've noticed missing both from your write up as well as the other detailed rumors I've seen lately: Track Guards for vehicles. Are these no longer available? I mean, they're a cheap way to keep from getting the Immobilised=Destroyed result in squadrons which is what everyone wants. Thusly, GW does not offer them. Even for an exorbitant price.

All the Imperial Guard tanks I bought came with trackguards on the (new~ish) vehicle accessories sprue. I don't recall them replacing this.

Oh no - I'm not saying they're getting rid of the track guards on the models...I'm wondering if they've gotten rid of the rules for them. I mean, just because it comes on the accessory sprue doesn't mean we get a rule for it, right? I don't get some extra fuel rule for putting those drums on my tanks. I'm curious to see if GW has decided to make track guards obsolete. I mean, they still look cool and all...

Anung Un Rama wrote:Which units can get Shotguns?

According to middle, only vets.

Valk has 24" S4 Ap6 Large blast

Vendetta has 72" S4 Ap5 large blast. One use.

12/12/10 for both and yeah, fast, skimmer.

Hunting lances still no +ccw.

Track guards are no more. Nothing can have them. Our squadrons will die a painful death from thrown tracks.

Platoon drill is not in there.

Shotguns for Straken and Vets.

No 'warrior weapons'

If it's sitting still firing three lascannons, it's not making much use of it's transport capacity. Seems a bit pointless.

15 points to give 4 Marines a 4+ FNP save vs 30 for a fething Medic to give 5 pathetic Guardsmen a 4+ FNP save.

Uhh...

Shummy, you are bang on about the Codex - it is completely bi-polar. You've got things that make your eyes stick out they're so good, and then there's jaw-droppingly terrible units on the next page. I mean, GW does the whole pendulum thing alot and that's cool, keeps things moving stops the game stagnating and so on... but this Codex... it just seems like someone lurching between different moods.

Did he write the Ogryn or the Stormy entry when he was in a bad mood? Did he see Guard get trounced in a game the day he wrote the Vendetta entry to get revenge?

You are wrong about the Dread Plasma Cannon though. That Dread can fight in HTH. Sentinels can't. The only thing a Sentinel can do better is sit in cover with a 3+ save... but that's now an 85 point Sentinel.

All of this about the Vendetta just makes me so bitter about converting my Hellhounds....sorry, Nerfhounds.

Da Boss wrote:If it's sitting still firing three lascannons, it's not making much use of it's transport capacity. Seems a bit pointless.

True - but even if it didn't have that transport capacity, it'd still be dirt cheap!

MinMax wrote:The Command Squad is essentially 5 Vanguard Veterans, which is 100 from its price tag...

That means the Apothecary costs 15 points.

I would say that the Command Squad Vet Marines are only worth about 20 points each as, unlike Sternguard, they don't have the special ammo and so should be cheaper. That puts the Apothecary at about 35 points.

I just wonder about the design behind it. Fast zippy skimmer, must sit completely still be be effective.

Huh?

How much (roughly) is a bare bones falcon, as a comparison?

Exactly DBM. The transport capacity is wrong brings it over the line. It's not giving anything up by becoming a Vendetta.

Valk w/Lascannon = 115
Vendy w/3 TL-Lascannon = 130

There's just no contest here. None at all. Valk is overpriced undergunned junk. Vendy rocks everyone's world.

But before we go on, I will ask, one more time, just to be 100% sure:

Is it 100% confirmed that the Vendetta keeps its 12-man transport capacity? Is this 100% fact?

The Vendetta feels like the Stormlord. A unit that makes you feel filthy for using it while other people are playing with Valkyries/Macharius Vulcans.

Death By Monkeys wrote:All of this about the Vendetta just makes me so bitter about converting my Hellhounds....sorry, Nerfhounds.

Was the nerfing of the Hellhound really that much of a surprise? It was bad in the first 3rd edition codex, and better in the second one. The pendulum just swung back on it.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Death By Monkeys wrote:All of this about the Vendetta just makes me so bitter about converting my Hellhounds....sorry, Nerfhounds.

Was the nerfing of the Hellhound really that much of a surprise? It was bad in the first 3rd edition codex, and better in the second one. The pendulum just swung back on it.

No, it wasn't a surprise, per se, and really the nerf isn't that bad. But compared to what you could be loading that FA slot with (namely a Vendetta) it makes it pretty poor, indeed.

Platuan4th wrote:

MinMax wrote:The Command Squad is essentially 5 Vanguard Veterans, which is 100 from its price tag...

That means the Apothecary costs 15 points.

I would say that the Command Squad Vet Marines are only worth about 20 points each as, unlike Sternguard, they don't have the special ammo and so should be cheaper. That puts the Apothecary at about 35 points.

I meant 15 points in addition to the cost of a Veteran, in that an Apothecary is identical to a Vanguard Veteran.

It's +30 points to turn a Guardsman into a Medic, isn't it?

Not at all Aggy. We called the nerfing of the Hellhound long, long ago. We just knew it was going to head back to 3rd Ed land (wher Jervis seems to be taking a lot of things). I'm honestly surprised the 'Glance = Pen' rule didn't come back (or, at least, a 5th Ed equiv, like +1 to all rolls on Damage Chart due to external Fuel Tanks).

But nerfing its rules is one thing. It's the fact that Arby both nerfed their rules and then ramped their cost up for no discernable reason. How are they worse, yet worth more???

H.B.M.C. wrote:Not at all Aggy. We called the nerfing of the Hellhound long, long ago. We just knew it was going to head back to 3rd Ed land (wher Jervis seems to be taking a lot of things). I'm honestly surprised the 'Glance = Pen' rule didn't come back (or, at least, a 5th Ed equiv, like +1 to all rolls on Damage Chart due to external Fuel Tanks).

But nerfing its rules is one thing. It's the fact that Arby both nerfed their rules and then ramped their cost up for no discernable reason. How are they worse, yet worth more???

Because they're Fast.

That's the rationale for the Salamander costing 100pts while being worth about 40.

MinMax wrote:I meant 15 points in addition to the cost of a Veteran, in that an Apothecary is identical to a Vanguard Veteran.

It's +30 points to turn a Guardsman into a Medic, isn't it?

Ah, I thought you were saying he was only 15 points total, as Sternguard are 25 pts a piece(hence 4 would be 100, which is what you subtracted).

Soooo, for 130 points I can get either a hellhound or a vendetta? Being that the rest of the list can provide pretty easy access to str. 6+ blast marker weapons (griffons, basilisks, manticores, leman russes, etc.) this doesn't seem like much of a competition at all.

Hm. While I was thinking about Vendettas, I decided to re-read the rules for skimmers. The part that caught my eye was the rule about "measuring distances" - the skimmer's base is ignored except when assaulting the skimmer and distances are measured to the hull. Anyone know how tall the new Valk bases are? I'm wondering if this is going to add a few inches of distance to shooting at Valks/Vendettas...and I wonder how many Eldar and Tau players will be appropriating these new bases for their own skimmers.

My second thought with all this talk about Vendettas - the value of the Hydra just went up! (Statistically, you only need 1 Hydra to bring down a Valk/Vendetta.)

Heavy Support: Leman Russ. 1-3 Any combo. HB. Searchlight. Smoke launchers. Lumbering Behemoth. Turret + whatever you can fire normally for your speed. Max speed is 6+d6".

LRBT 150.
Exterminator 150.
Vanquisher 155.
Eradicator 160.
Demolisher 165.
Punisher 180.
Executioner 190.

HB can be a HF for free. HB can be a Lascannon for 15. Sponson HB/HF for 20. MM for 30. PC for 40 ( All variants. Means Standard Russ can have PC / MM ). SB/HS 10. HK 10. Dozer 10. Extra armour 15. Entire squadron: Camo netting for 20.

Knight Commander Pask. 50. No force org. His tank is Bs4. If it Remains stationary it may re-roll to wound with all weapons. If it Remains stationary it may +1 to pen vehicles with all weapons.

Hydra. 75. 1-3. 2 TL Hydra Autocannons. HB. Searchlight. Smokelaunchers. Auto targetting system. Skimmers and turbo-boosters may not use cover saves vs the hydra. HB may be a HF for free. SB/HS 10. HK 10. Extra armour 15. Entire squadron: Camo netting 20.

Ordnance Battery. 1-3. Any combo. HB. Searchlight. Smoke launchers.

Basilisk 125.
Medusa 135.
Colossus 140.
Griffon 75.

HB to a HF for free. Enclosed 15. SB/HS 10. HK 10. Dozer 10. Extra armour 15. Camo netting 30.
Medusa may upgrade to Bastion-breacher rounds for 5pts. It loses it's regular 36" demolisher round for the new stats.

Manticore Rocket Launcher. 160. 4 Storm eagles. HB. Searchlight. Smoke launchers. HB may be a HF for free. SB/HS 10. HK 10. Dozer 10. Extra armour 15. Camo netting 30.

Deathstrike. 160!!! Deathstrike missile. HB. Searchlight. Smoke launchers. HB may be a HF for free. SB/HS 10. HK 10. Dozer 10. Extra armour 15. Camo netting 30.

EDIT: sorry, double post.

Death By Monkeys wrote:Hm. While I was thinking about Vendettas, I decided to re-read the rules for skimmers. The part that caught my eye was the rule about "measuring distances" - the skimmer's base is ignored except when assaulting the skimmer and distances are measured to the hull. Anyone know how tall the new Valk bases are?

I'd say the flight stand is about 150mm if the oval base is the same 120mm base that comes with the LOTR Misty Mountains Dragon.

Aaaaaand as a final note. I've read somewhere that Ratlings have a Cake Bonus or something similar.

One of the models has a bag next to it in the coloured section and inside it are two apples and ( What GW have painted it up as ) a Battenburg cake. Google 'Battenburg' if that makes no sense to you.

Enclosed top for artillery tanks is still an option? Thank you, that makes me happy. My first Medusa is still playable after all, and 5 points cheaper, to boot :-)

The Medusa isn't modal, but has to choose one or the other? Unexpected. I think I'd go with the more reliable AP2.

middle wrote:Aaaaaand as a final note. I've read somewhere that Ratlings have a Cake Bonus or something similar.

One of the models has a bag next to it in the coloured section and inside it are two apples and ( What GW have painted it up as ) a Battenburg cake. Google 'Battenburg' if that makes no sense to you.

I saw the apple core in the Advance Orders photo for the Ratlings, but wasn't sure whether the 'cake' on the other Ratling's base was supposed to be a haggis, pork pie or some kind of hearty nutcake one might take on a ringquest or somesuch.

middle wrote:HB can be a Lascannon for 15.

I'd like everyone to note that this is a 5 point increase on the cost of a Hull Lascannon. Right now, Hull weapons on a Russ are +5 for an HB, +15 for a Lascannon. With the new 'Dex HB's come as standard, so the +15 is really a +20 from no weapon.

middle wrote:Sponson HB/HF for 20. MM for 30. PC for 40 ( All variants. Means Standard Russ can have PC / MM ). SB/HS 10. HK 10. Dozer 10. Extra armour 15. Entire squadron: Camo netting for 20.

Love to know what mythical magical land 2 BS3 Plasma Cannons are worth 40-fething-points.

middle wrote:Knight Commander Pask. 50. No force org. His tank is Bs4. If it Remains stationary it may re-roll to wound with all weapons. If it Remains stationary it may +1 to pen vehicles with all weapons.

Knight Commander Mandatory. Expect to see every first Exterminator or Executioner with this guy.

middle wrote:Hydra. 75. 1-3. 2 TL Hydra Autocannons. HB. Searchlight. Smokelaunchers. Auto targetting system. Skimmers and turbo-boosters may not use cover saves vs the hydra. HB may be a HF for free. SB/HS 10. HK 10. Extra armour 15. Entire squadron: Camo netting 20.

Two TL-Hydra cannons, ok. So we've got 4 R72 TL shots. Good to hear. And it messes skimmers up. I can hear Eldar players crying again...

Basilisk 125.
Medusa 135.
Colossus 140.
Griffon 75.

What makes the Colossus worth more than the Basilisk when the Col is S6 and the Bassy S9? Not a dig at the unit, but a genuine question? What's so good about it?

HB to a HF for free.

I can't imagine why you would. If a Bassy is ever shooting its hull weapon it's in trouble.

Manticore Rocket Launcher. 160. 4 Storm eagles. HB. Searchlight. Smoke launchers. HB may be a HF for free. SB/HS 10. HK 10. Dozer 10. Extra armour 15. Camo netting 30.

Old one with its S9 AP2 rockets better... A good +10 point upgrade to the Bassy that didn't make the Bassy redundant.

Deathstrike. 160!!! Deathstrike missile. HB. Searchlight. Smoke launchers. HB may be a HF for free. SB/HS 10. HK 10. Dozer 10. Extra armour 15. Camo netting 30.

Yeah. 160 points for a single shot weapon... or 125 for one pip of Strength less... let me think...

Codex Bi-Polar is looking to be a very strange book, almost as if written by two different teams of people that weren't allowed to talk to one another during its creation.

Why are Dozerblades 10pts?

That is extremely disconcerting for such an upgrade.

hrm....

What makes the Colossus worth more than the Basilisk when the Col is S6 and the Bassy S9? Not a dig at the unit, but a genuine question? What's so good about it?

It does not allow cover saves. think an AP3 hellhound ordnance blast.

Vaktathi wrote:Why are Dozerblades 10pts?

Because Arby says so.

Vaktathi wrote:It does not allow cover saves. think an AP3 hellhound ordnance blast.

For real? Confirmed?

If so, then the Griffon just won the race to see which Arty tank could be made redundant before the Codex was released.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Codex Bi-Polar is looking to be a very strange book, almost as if written by two different teams of people that weren't allowed to talk to one another during its creation.

That would, I suspect, be the most elegant explanation for the results we're seeing. Alas, Occam's Razor isn't so easily applied, and in the absence of proper dialogue between the designer and the audience, we'll never know for certain.

Vaktathi wrote:Why are Dozerblades 10pts?

That is extremely disconcerting for such an upgrade.

An odd chance for an option nobody ever takes, certainly.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:It does not allow cover saves. think an AP3 hellhound ordnance blast.

For real? Confirmed?

If so, then the Griffon just won the race to see which Arty tank could be made redundant before the Codex was released.

To be fair, the Griffon still has the overwhelming advantage of cost. You can get very nearly two of them for the price of a Colossus.

Hm. Let's see what fun tricks we can do with Pask, shall we?

- Pask in a Punisher w/ Hull HB and HB Sponsons = against T3, ~19 wounds; against T4, ~16 wounds

- Pask in a Vanquisher w/ Hull Las = against AV 14, ~20 % kill (and this is with a target out in the open - no cover)

I'd do the Executioner vs. Terminators but I don't trust my math on blast templates.

Colossus ignore cover saves. Didn't notice that that wasn't on the french pdf.

Griffon re-rolls to hit too.

Agreed on the flying stand, it's easily 6" tall. And for anyone who has looked at it and winced, The flying stand sinks into Valk by a good 5mm. Also the stand is quite think, say around 2mm. People have been picking it up and setting it down all day and sweeping it round shouting ' NYAAAAWWWWWMMMMMM ! PCHU PCHU ! ' all week and it hasn't broken yet.

I have to say, on the whole, this looks great. There are parts I do not like, especially Ogryns as they were the unit I was most hoping to see improved as I love the models and background.

In its entirety though, I am very excited for this. I think Guard will get a substantial power boost, have TONS of options to play and be very cool.

I can't wait to buy some more tanks! My Catachans got some love for the firs time in a long time.

And I agree, holy crap, the Vendetta is infinetely better than the Valk. The only thing I can see the Valk being useful for is letting units deepstrike while moving (unless the Vendetta can do that too). Three twin linked las cannons on a fast skimmer for 130 points is captain insano good.

Agamemnon2 wrote:That would, I suspect, be the most elegant explanation for the results we're seeing. Alas, Occam's Razor isn't so easily applied, and in the absence of proper dialogue between the designer and the audience, we'll never know for certain.

Oh I don't actually think it was designed in the way I described, but there is just such a huge disconnect between sections of this book that you really have to wonder how many hands went into designing it, and how much of it was 'by committee'. It's almost as if office politics spilled over into the design of this book, and that's just bizzare.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:That would, I suspect, be the most elegant explanation for the results we're seeing. Alas, Occam's Razor isn't so easily applied, and in the absence of proper dialogue between the designer and the audience, we'll never know for certain.

Oh I don't actually think it was designed in the way I described, but there is just such a huge disconnect between sections of this book that you really have to wonder how many hands went into designing it, and how much of it was 'by committee'. It's almost as if office politics spilled over into the design of this book, and that's just bizzare.

Your description made me remember that there's actually a gaming product that exhibits the same telltale marks of a truly bipolar design. A little-known RPG called F.A.T.A.L., easily the worst game ever devised by mankind. It is to human leisure activities what Nurgle is to public healthcare.

I'm actually considering picking up some RRs for my Mech Guard now. 75 for 6 with Power Weapon Vet isn't too shabby.

Reecius wrote:Three twin linked las cannons on a fast skimmer for 130 points is captain insano good.

Quoted for truth as well as for the fact that you used the name "Captain Insano"!

Yeah. Seems RR's got through this completely unscathed. They went down a point really, but the Vet is mandatory (but who cares, +1A is actually useful for him unlike other Vet Sergeants in a Guard army).

Shame about the models...

I'm happy that RRs did not in fact get hit with the nerfhammer. They appear to still fulfill the same old role, and you can give the squad a special weapon as well, which might be worth it on some matchups. Of course, people who were using them without lances got shafted.

Death By Monkeys wrote:Quoted for truth as well as for the fact that you used the name "Captain Insano"!

SCIENCE!!!!!!!!

(Hopefully someone gets the reference...)

Not I!

So, H.B.M.C..... In a non cheeky way, what do you make of the rumours so far? You're fairly vocal about KP's and stuff making Guard currently mildly cack, and seem to be respected about the Guard.

Any good? Show promise? Steaming pile of poop? Godsend?

For what it's worth, I will be using the stock Valkyrie. I love the look of the kit, especially with the missile pods, and that to me is reason enough not to go dilly-dallying with trying to fit six inelegant lascannons onto it.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Yeah. Seems RR's got through this completely unscathed. They went down a point really, but the Vet is mandatory (but who cares, +1A is actually useful for him unlike other Vet Sergeants in a Guard army).

Shame about the models...

They're still rumored for wave 1.5...

Saw an interesting conversion of Rough Riders today. Cadians with the Lances, standing atop modified Gundrones, ala the old RT era Powerboards.

Not exactly the most genius conversion ever, but they looked effective in the context of the rest of the army.

Thats it from me for tonight folks. That much writing was like being at Uni again.

Same again, any questions / worries send them on a postcard to the usual address and i'll get back to you.

Enjoy !

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:That would, I suspect, be the most elegant explanation for the results we're seeing. Alas, Occam's Razor isn't so easily applied, and in the absence of proper dialogue between the designer and the audience, we'll never know for certain.

Oh I don't actually think it was designed in the way I described, but there is just such a huge disconnect between sections of this book that you really have to wonder how many hands went into designing it, and how much of it was 'by committee'. It's almost as if office politics spilled over into the design of this book, and that's just bizzare.

Maybe instead of trying to write the rules so that their kids could understand them they just had them help.

Your description made me remember that there's actually a gaming product that exhibits the same telltale marks of a truly bipolar design. A little-known RPG called F.A.T.A.L., easily the worst game ever devised by mankind. It is to human leisure activities what Nurgle is to public healthcare.

I'm taking game design courses right now (both board/card/and computer) and you would be amazed how easy it is to make bi polar design decisions. Not for me of course, I tend to edge on too little variation, but some people just don't understand how to balance a game system. Often times these people are the wacky artsy types that would want to make a game like FATAL (or besm, fatals cousin). To be serious though, this is well within their modus operandi. The ork book was incredibly bi polar and the 4E tyranid codex was practically written by a man with 12 personalities. All of them Lincoln. 40k has always suffered from this kind of thing, though rarely so pronounced as vendetta vs valkyrie.

Okay - just went back through the last 4-5 pages to cut and paste all this lovely info into a single word document. That way, if GW decides to strike down with furious anger, I've got it backed up and can still play with lists until the Codex comes out.

middle wrote:Thats it from me for tonight folks. That much writing was like being at Uni again.

Same again, any questions / worries send them on a postcard to the usual address and i'll get back to you.

Enjoy !

Thanks much, middle! You're the hero of the day!

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:So, H.B.M.C..... In a non cheeky way, what do you make of the rumours so far?

In a word? Schizophrenic.

I'm used to the whole some bad some good thing GW does, it's cool, but the bad in this 'Dex is so bad, and the good so good that, as I said, it's like two different teams designed sections of the book without consulting each other at any point.

It's weird.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:You're fairly vocal about KP's and stuff making Guard currently mildly cack

Nice try Grotsnik, but KP's didn't make Guard 'mildly' bad. They made them damn-near auto-lose 1/3rd of their games. Huge fething difference.

But GW's solution, the Amorphus Blob Platoon, is something I like because it's a choice, not an either/or. You can place some squads in a blob, whilst leaving others in that same platoon by themselves. That's great. The alternatives were no Amorphus Blob Platoons, meaning KP missions are still auto-lose for Guard (and Epic Fail for GW for not seeing it) or, equally as bad, a rule that meant that when you join squads, all squads in the platoon must merge.

But they didn't do that. They, for once, found the middle ground, which makes a refreshing change from the hard-core pendulum swinging GW loves to do.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Any good? Show promise? Steaming pile of poop? Godsend?

I don't think it will be a bad Codex in that it will be a weak Codex, uncompetative, etc. etc., but then again neither is the 'Chaos' Codex - its perfectly workable as an army and you can make good lists from it - and that Codex is still steaming pile of poop because it's so utterly fething boring as flying rodent gak with all the 3rd Ed life sucked from it.

I doubt Guard will end up in the same position as the 'Chaos' Codex, a book that's fine as an army but a pale shadow of its former glory, but it's looking like there aren't going to be many 'power builds' thanks to the extreme costs of most of the upgrades and the strange and nonsensical arbitrary restrictions that seem to have been heaped upon it.

Vaktathi wrote:Why are Dozerblades 10pts?

That is extremely disconcerting for such an upgrade.

hrm....

Well it turns your 1/6 chance of losing a vehicle in a squadron down to 1/36, I'd probably take it on vehicles I'm intending to move.

Someone remind me again; who's writing this codex? It would set a lot of things straight.

Fairly do's.

So, in summing up, somewhere between adequate, and satisfactor?

I should just staple wings to my predator and pretend.

Let me just clarify my 'power builds' statement on the last page.

I don't really care about 'power builds' and tournaments and whatever. What I mean by there being not many 'power builds' is that a I fear all the 'toys' in a Guard army will be either so expensive or so worthless (or both, as it seems) that even the card-carrying members of the Casual Gamer Mafia will be taking similar-looking lists because even they will get sick of losing all the time just because they had the temerity to try and use the Elites section of the book, or not bring a trio of Vendy's to every game.

I fear stagnation of Guard meta-gaming because we'll be reduced to only a few choices that are worth a damn, and heaps of 'cool' things that just don't work!

And I actually say this not from the perspective of a long-time Guard player, but actually as a Daemonhunter and Witch Hunter player. I've mentioned before that I have a combined DH/WH army that involves not a single GK or SoB and instead makes use of the Rogue's Gallery of units such as Daemonhosts, Death Cultists, Archo-Flagellants, all backed up by ISTs. From a meta-game perspective this is just stupid - the only Inquisitorial armies that really work are GK and SoB armies. Trying to use the over-priced and underpowered random units that make up the rest of the Inquisitorial line just doesn't work in a competitive environment, or even against non-competitive 'casual' style armies.

So why do I do it? Because I choose things more based on aesthetics and story than in-game worth. Doesn't mean I don't appreciate their value (or lack thereof) in a game - I certainly do and my ire over the choices in the new Guard 'Dex speaks to that - but after watching a friend of mine bring the same Grey Knight list to every game for years, I couldn't stand the idea of having to make an army in a particular way just to have a chance at winning. So that's why I have an Inquisitorial army centred on all the crap units no one uses - because I can mix it up with different combos and make it interesting.

So, bringing this back to the Guard, with all these high-price/low-utility units coming into the Codex, what we might see, and what I'm most afraid of, is the Guard becoming "3 Vendys/4-6 Russes and/or Arty/Platoons of infantry number crunched to take the best advantage of Orders". Right now people play Guard in a lot of different ways, and while there are some very very wrong ways to play Guard, there are a lot of correct ways to play Guard. It's a fun and flexible list (the KP debacle notwithstanding). I don't want to see Guard distilled to a cookie-cutter list just so people have a chance at winning, and I can see that happening with that Codex.

And it saddens me and it angers Commissar Calgar.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I doubt Guard will end up in the same position as the 'Chaos' Codex, a book that's fine as an army but a pale shadow of its former glory, but it's looking like there aren't going to be many 'power builds' thanks to the extreme costs of most of the upgrades and the strange and nonsensical arbitrary restrictions that seem to have been heaped upon it.

From a game design stand point, if your objective is balance, should there ever be "power builds"? Its one thing to play to your strong points and if that what you mean, great! But its another when you consider that too often "power builds" result from an unintended consequence of allowing units certain combination of abilities and stats and then allowing the army to take advantage of that unintended fact to such a zealous degree that by the next go around you have to "fix" or break things. I'm already guessing by the next time 5-6yrs from now when we get back to IG they will probably nerf Valkyries which are the closest thing to a steal in the whole book. Despite that, I think this will be a fairly well balanced book likely to lose disproportionately to less balanced codices and codices of armies that have advantages opposite our weaknesses.

---
EDIT: HBMC, just saw what you wrote.

I think the design objectives that this codices follow are following a larger conceptual goal for 40k. This edition has been about reemphasizing troop choices. This codices does that. It getting back to the basics. If you looked at 4th edition armies, the vast majority of those armies were composed every other FOC counting as a troop. Looking at those armies you certainly wouldn't think their was an obvious reason certain units are the main unit of their respective army. The era of "elite" armies are waning.

I understand your concern about the collapsing variety of IG army play styles. I really enjoyed seeing it all, but at the same time I think there were moments where things were getting overly varied. Example I never took drop troops, because I personally thought it encroached on space marines and diminished both theirs and IG's thematic distinctiveness. Ultimately what it comes down to for me is if our codex has been balanced relative to others. I think the armies that fit into the core identity of the guard will benefit from this codex, while those that stray from it will suffer.

Mythos - See my clarification above.

Cheese Elemental wrote:Someone remind me again; who's writing this codex? It would set a lot of things straight.

Robin "Arbitrary" Crudace (thanks minmax!).

Call him Arby for short.

Cheese Elemental wrote:Someone remind me again; who's writing this codex? It would set a lot of things straight.

Robin Cruddace.

Mmmmmmm.... Arby's... Oh, not the fast food?

I think that this codex will be a major improvement over the previous ones. Besides, nobody is MADE to take a Vandetta, and there are still ways to get AT in your army, but just that the Vandetta is so effective at AT that for a "better" list you should take one.

Just my take.

-A.

Okay, here's my power list so far. It deviates from the Tanks kill Infantry/Infantry kill Tanks paradigm, but I think we'll be seeing more like it. I think this will be an era of Vendettas kill Tanks/Everything else kills Infantry.

1x CCS w/ 3 Flamers, 1 HF - 85 pts
2x Vet Squads w/ 2 Flamers, 1 HF - 400 pts
3x Vendetta Squadrons of 3 - 1170 pts
1x Hydra Squadron of 2 w/ Camo Netting - 170 pts
1x Griffon Squadron of 3 - 225 pts

CCS and Vet Squads are mounted or dismounted in the Vendettas as needed. I could probably go with 1 less Vendetta Squadron and use the points to buy more Vet Squads and another tank or more artillery. It's only got 2 scoring units, but with the Vendettas, I think they'll get the job done. And only 8 KPs total.

I wonder what the codex would be like if, say, Phil Kelly wrote it.

Well, at least we are going to have some down right nasty lists from this new codex


I for some reason keep thinking about a BS4 Punisher that can reroll wounds... slap some sponsons on that bad boy and you will be taking out 5+ MEQ a turn (regardless of cover) or 13+ OEQ (and basically a whole 10man squad of guard). Pretty impressive firepower imo, costs 250 and has a short range of 24" tho :(


Vendettas are now offically mandatory. Slap a squad of infantry in there and they're scoring tank hunters.

I'm still pretty pumped about the Griffion, cheap and accurate

I think my heavy choices will be a squad of Griffions, a squad of LRBT and Exterminator w/ sponsons or a Demolisher w/out sponsons.
Of course, if Vendettas become extremely common, then you might see Hydras becoming more important (wish they could shoot at DS Drop Pods and try to blow them up!).

Cheese Elemental wrote:I wonder what the codex would be like if, say, Phil Kelly wrote it.

Ogryns, Ratlings, and Mutants(as a new unit) would be the most powerful units in the book, because apparently Phil Kelly hates humans.

Warriors of Chaos are humans, and they're an awesome army.

Cheese Elemental wrote:Warriors of Chaos are humans, and they're an awesome army.

Sorry, I forgot one of these: .

@HBMC: I think it's really uncool of your to be attacking the writer of the IG codex (in giving him a derogatory nickname), because even though it has his name on it, he's part of the design team and I think this is his first codex. What that means to me is he could have wrote the bestest codex in the game, then used Orygns to crush his boss at work, then showed up the next day to be told they are worth 40 points. Because we don't know why the codex is so Bi-polar, I think it's in very bad taste to attack the writer, especially when the codex has not been released or previewed in any form other then rumors. I can understand your frustration, but I feel think your over reacting and over analyzing rumors that "may" turn out to be correct. I respect your feelings, but to say it's too early to draw these conclusions just feels to freaking obvious. Yes it looks like Ogryn are over priced, they may suck, but until we have had a few months after the codex is released it's really hard to make real judgments about this.

P.S. The Vendetta might be cheap because it's huge new flying stand makes it so everyone always has LOS to it and it almost never has cover. At least the Valk can be moving at Flat out (and get a cover save), while doing it's job of moving units around.

NinjaRay wrote:P.S. The Vendetta might be cheap because it's huge new flying stand makes it so everyone always has LOS to it and it almost never has cover. At least the Valk can be moving at Flat out (and get a cover save), while doing it's job of moving units around.

Psst...the Vendetta gets that too.

Makes the Lascannons less effective though.

NinjaRay wrote:especially when the codex has not be released or previewed in any form other then rumors.

Unfortunately, Middle's newest "rumors" come directly out of the preview copy of the book able to be seen at GW stores, so you're technically wrong here.

I was under the impression that a vehicle only got cover if half of it's hull was not visible. So it really doesnt matter if it's sitting in area terrain or not, if half the hull is visible, no save. That's correct yes? Hence I'm not too sure that camo netting is really worth very many points, except perhaps on indirect-firing vehicles.

Mogul Kamir... Rage is not a good thing. It's one of those bad special abilities that counteracts something else. And has especially bad synergy with Rough Riders. Is Kamir hell on wheels in some way we dont know about? Because if not, why would I pay 40 points to tactically hamstring my own squad?

With the Valk/Vend, arent those heavy bolter "sponsons" mounted inside the hull peeking out through the hatch to the side? Assuming (seems like a safe enough assumption) the lascannons/missiles/etc are fixed to shoot forward, it'll be quite difficult to get your firing arc such that you'll ever get HB shots off, unless theyve got some sort of rule where they can shoot at a different target.

My first thought about the Voxes was "I'll probably only buy those for my SWS and HWS since they'll be the ones who get the most orders". Figures theyre the guys that cant take them.

To fire the 3 TL lascannons on a Vendetta, it'll have to be moving slow enough to not get a speed cover save. And since it's up on a flight stand, it'll almost never get a normal cover save. Arm 12. Sounds potentially dangerous to hover and shoot like that. Of course, being on such a tall flight stand makes it a little easier to shoot enemy vehicles without a cover save for them. Still, theyre pretty spiffy.

Also, are the psyker squads 0-1 or could you run 3? Pinning a Ld2 squad is cool but sometimes you'll want to make them just fall back normally then chase them off the board by having something stay within 6" so it cant rally. Hard to pull off, but it's another possibility. The psyker choir is an elite choice too, right? That'd be irony if psykers went from 12 points of useless to the best elites choice.

Platuan4th wrote:

NinjaRay wrote:especially when the codex has not be released or previewed in any form other then rumors.

Unfortunately, Middle's newest "rumors" come directly out of the preview copy of the book able to be seen at GW stores, so you're technically wrong here.

In truth that does entirely depend on how much you trust middle. I do somewhat agree that its unfair to tag the new guy as the problem here, it's not like they were on a winning streak writing these things before he came along. Hellfire rounds working in combi bolters but not storm bolters or pistols is pretty arbitrary for example. And the amazing performance of sternguard compared to the horrific performance of vanguard holds similar bi polar... ness... Yeah.

Can we just admit that they are somewhat bad at writing codexes in general?

Platuan4th wrote:

NinjaRay wrote:especially when the codex has not be released or previewed in any form other then rumors.

Unfortunately, Middle's newest "rumors" come directly out of the preview copy of the book able to be seen at GW stores, so you're technically wrong here.

I'm not wrong until I've had a chance to read the codex. I'm just saying while Middle appears to be going a great job getting us info, but nothing says he's infallible or not missing some small details that could make all the difference in the world. Until I read the book, it's a rumor to me. Rumor's are hearsay and not always true.

So if a book is badly written... I shouldn't blame the person who's name is on it? Then who should be blame? Jervis is a good one to start with, but he didn't write it - Arby did. That's not to say it wasn't a colaberative effort, I'm sure it was, but his name is on it, he shold be held accountable for both the good and the bad.

As for nicknames, please. I call Jervis the Sultan of Bland, and when Pete Haines was still around I called him Page 41.

If the codex turns out to be an absolute crap-pile, can someone give me Cruddance's address and a ton of fish guts?

Edit: S**tpile isn't censored!

Yes, the Vendetta will be a firemagnet. But with a good Scout move, it should not be that hard to position yourself so that your opponent can not bring a great deal of anti tank firepower against it, while it shoots its TL LCs.

I think our fast attack slots are going to be nearly as competative as our heavy slots. Vendettas, RR's (Cheaper w/a good place to hide behind those tanks and cheaper chimeras), Valks (i like them due to the 12" move w/lots of shots while transporting), and cheaper sentinels means that I'm going to have trouble picking my FA.

Meanwhile my elites are gonna be easy (i.e. I might field a ST squad, it'll depend).

Death By Monkeys wrote:

Reecius wrote:Three twin linked las cannons on a fast skimmer for 130 points is captain insano good.

Quoted for truth as well as for the fact that you used the name "Captain Insano"!

Haha, the theme of the new air bourne IG is, "With the Vendettas, you can do it!"

Regarding the Vendetta's move and fire restrictions, fast vehicles can move 6" and fire everything. It can also move 12" and shoot just one lascannon. It doesn't have to stand still.

So... Straken replaces a Company Commander in a CCS, right? Or is he an IC?

Man, a SWS with three Demo charges jumping out of a Valk or Vendeta will be a sweet, sweet squad. I use two Demo charges in my airborne IG now (so long guys, nice knowing you) and they are brutal. Sometimes they blow themselves or their buddies up, but hey, the squad is never dull! But three of them, holy gak, you could decimate entire mobs of orks or MEQ's easily. I am stoke don that squad, very very much.

Also, 225 points nets you a squad of 3 Hydras or 3 Grifons, that is fantastic firepower for those points.

This dex has some serious punch in it.

3 squads of 3 vendettas (1170)

3 squads of 3 Grifons (675)

2 squads of vets (150)

And a Psyker for your HQ, a tad over 2000, but you could drops one griffon to make it fit.

That army obliterates hordes and mech lists. 9 rerollable pie plates, 27 move and shoot, twin linked las cannons per turn.

Wow, this is going to be fun.

I wouldn't call a min-maxed out tha whazoo list 'fun', Reecius. 9 Vendys and 9 Griffons looks decidedly dull to me, no matter how 'effective' it may be.

I am still a little unclear on whether special weapon squads can take a vox. Nothing seems to state one way or the other which leads me to believe that, no, they can't (I know it has specifically been stated that heavy weapon squads can't take them).

At least the speacial weapons squads can hop in someone else's Chimera without penalty unlike the poor heavy weapons squads that are apparently stranded out in the open with no ride (and will lose a precious turn of shooting if they decide to get into one) and will forever be walking onto the table from reserves in missions that use them.

tomguycot wrote:At least the speacial weapons squads can hop in someone else's Chimera without penalty unlike the poor heavy weapons squads that are apparently stranded out in the open with no ride (and will lose a precious turn of shooting if they decide to get into one) and will forever be walking onto the table from reserves in missions that use them.

Valkyries are not dedicated transports. Heavy weapons teams can start the game in them. Don't ask me why you'd want them to.

lol, don't ask me why you'd bother with HWS.

You're better off getting a Griffin or a Russ than any single HWS.

H.B.M.C. wrote:So if a book is badly written... I shouldn't blame the person who's name is on it? Then who should be blame? Jervis is a good one to start with, but he didn't write it - Arby did. That's not to say it wasn't a collaborative effort, I'm sure it was, but his name is on it, he shold be held accountable for both the good and the bad.

As for nicknames, please. I call Jervis the Sultan of Bland, and when Pete Haines was still around I called him Page 41.

All I'm saying is there is more to writing a codex then the Army list. If the fluff sucks, it's probably the writers fault, if the army list sucks, it's probably not the writer's fault but the studio's fault. Also, to know if a book is badly written, I would hope you have read it first. Making assumptions based on rumors you don't like, when you do not have the full picture, casts you in negative light, at least in my eyes. I've followed your posts a long time and I normally enjoy reading what you have to say. I look forward to enjoying what you have to say in the future, but currently I don't want to read you lambasting a book that's not out and blaming a writer that mostly was not responsible. It's half cocked and unfair for both the book and anyone that reads this thread. After the book(or PDF) has been out and I read your Cover to Cover review, I hope you lay into anything that's weaksauce, but blasting at a new writter for an Army list that others in the studio probably had huge inpact on seems weak. I know you and Jervis are homeboyz and all but really are you soooooo angry that you have to blast someone you don't know, don't know what they did, just because you know there name?
I guess we all need hobbies, mine is playing 40K, you should join me, it's fun.

Hmm...

If the rumoured values/etc are true, here's a potential list:

1 Primaris Psyker 70

1 Infantry Platoon 180
Platoon Command w. 4 Flamers
Infantry Squad w. Flamer/Autocanon
Infantry Squad w. Flamer/Autocanon

1 Veterans 90
2 Meltaguns

2 Vendettas 260

2 Vendettas 260

2 Leman Russ Battle Tanks 340
Heavy Bolter sponsons

2 Hydras 150

2 Griffons 150

1500


The squads all take to the skies in Vendettas, basically just the cheapest way to make them scoring (I see why Veterans are not 5-10 any more!). The equipment is mostly an after thought. The Priamris Psyker is just there 'cause he's an IC so I can hide him in a vendetta without stopping it scoring.

The Russes give the Hydras a cover save, and the Griffons hide behind them both, against the table edge of quarter. The Vendettas use their huge bases as a buffer stopping the russes from getting assaulted. Then in later turns they move out onto objectives. In a Kill Points game you might start the infantry platoon on hte table for a couple extra autocannon shots, but it's probably better to hide them (so I should probably leave them naked and throw HB's on the valks or something, oh well).

This list scales up very well pretty much geometrically as far as 2250. I'm not saying it will be the new power list, but it's a basis to work from and shows what the new guard is capable of. It does all hinge on the the Vendetta's transport capacity not being a typo (seems a bit out of left field).

There's also this version, a complete airforce:

1 Primaris Psyker 70

1 Infantry Platoon 345
Platoon Command w. 4 Flamers
Infantry Squad w. Flamer/Autocanon
Infantry Squad w. Flamer/Autocanon
Infantry Squad w. Flamer/Autocanon
Infantry Squad w. Flamer/Autocanon
Special Weapon Squad w. 3 Flamers

1 Veterans 100
3 Meltaguns

3 Vendettas 420
Heavy Bolter sponsons

2 Vendettas 280
Heavy Bolter sponsons

2 Vendettas 280
Heavy Bolter sponsons

Total: 1500

This one scales to 1850 OK and gets shakey after that.
Could also work as a theme list with only veterans in the vendettas.

I can't even begin to fathom why these things are 0-3. Imagine if Falcons were 1-3!

Scottywan82 wrote:lol, don't ask me why you'd bother with HWS.

You're better off getting a Griffin or a Russ than any single HWS.

Or - a Vendetta!

NinjaRay wrote:I guess we all need hobbies, mine is playing 40K, you should join me, it's fun.

*glares*

With statements like that mate, you ain't worth responding to... Although I will say you are correct that there's more to a Codex than just the list. But we're discussing the list. And if the fluff is ok and the list is bad what happens then? Do the players 'break even'? We ignore the bad because the good cancels it out? No. If it's a bad list then it's a bad list, and we'll say as much.

BYE

Clever.

See? This is karma for saying that the more crazy people that stab me with words the better in pm! Your slight embarrassment is my total victory!

All I said was the more the merrier. How you choose to interpret that is up to you.

Raxmei wrote:Valkyries are not dedicated transports. Heavy weapons teams can start the game in them. Don't ask me why you'd want them to.

Agreed ,I can't think of why you would want a heavy weapon team in a valkyrie either. The only reason I was interested in a chimera is because of the 5 firepoints.

The only way I could see using the heavy weapons teams is if they had an AV 12 shell to mitigate the fact that they are basically overpriced 'instant death' waiting to happen.

Then, top it all off with the fact that you can't give 'em a vox either. They're probably the one unit in the book that I'd actually like to give a vox to so of course it isn't an option. In fact, the only use I can see for the voxes in this book would be if you are planning on 'blobbing' your platoons you could maybe give one squad a vox and let the whole 50 man platoon benefit from it. That might not be terrible. Otherwise they are just as big of a point sink as they are now.

Well, I think it will be smart to give one Infantry Squad per platoon a Commissar and a Vox. So if you decide to make a large squad, you they wont run or be swept, and you can give them orders (while keeping your command squads safely away).


All I know is in a Dawn of War mission, I look forward to starting the game with over 100 bodies on the table

H.B.M.C. wrote:All I said was the more the merrier. How you choose to interpret that is up to you.

Quick q, why did you call Pete Haines pg 41?

However, my favorite combo in this entire book is going to be the Creed+10 Rough Riders. Don't know why, he just is going to be.

I mean seriously, 20 Str 6 I6 power weapon attacks. Come on. I seriously doubt that most power/terminator armored units can withstand that. Plus they can outflank because Creed gives out Scout...whee!

Of course, after the initial charge they're as good as dead, but oh it's so worth it.

People are posting all sorts of lists with several vendettas, 4+ Leman Russ, and almost no infantry, <6 squads. I don't think they are going to carry the army like some seem to be thinking.

Heh. An IG army with nine squads or less can take the field entirely in flyers. 1170 plus upgrades on fast attack, then the rest in troops. That's a little like drop troops, air assault instead of airborne.

For the record, I don't plan on fielding an army remotely like this. The 1500 army I have planned has two medium size platoons, groundpounding fast attack, some chimeras and three single vehicle heavy support slots.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:All I said was the more the merrier. How you choose to interpret that is up to you.

Quick q, why did you call Pete Haines pg 41?

However, my favorite combo in this entire book is going to be the Creed+10 Rough Riders. Don't know why, he just is going to be.

I mean seriously, 20 Str 6 I6 power weapon attacks. Come on. I seriously doubt that most power/terminator armored units can withstand that. Plus they can outflank because Creed gives out Scout...whee!

Of course, after the initial charge they're as good as dead, but oh it's so worth it.

They should be able to make their points back, even against Assault Termies (although just barely).

21 attacks, 10.5 hits, 8.75 wounds ( read, dead squad of MEQ ), 5.83 dead Termines, 2.91 dead AssTermines.

I probably would not toss them at a squad of AssTermines (unless I had to), but against pretty much anything else, they will cause some hurt

And lets not forget, they have frag grenades hehe

tomguycot wrote:

Raxmei wrote:Valkyries are not dedicated transports. Heavy weapons teams can start the game in them. Don't ask me why you'd want them to.

Agreed ,I can't think of why you would want a heavy weapon team in a valkyrie either. The only reason I was interested in a chimera is because of the 5 firepoints.

It's not that terrible of an idea IMO, keep in mind you can use the scout move to deploy the heavy weapon team and still fire on the first turn. I could see the advantage of moving them up the flanks like that. Make a 24" rush with the Valk/Vendetta, fly over some woods and dump the heavy weapon team in, you will have to make a dangerous terrain test (I assume only one, and that the one for disembarking over 12" and deepstriking into difficult terrain aren't cumulative), because the team is now a single model with 2 wounds, you won't lose any models to those tests and they are ready to open fire turn 1.

Of course, being up on the flank is only really significant if you have anti tank weapons, and if that's the case you may as well just rush the vendetta up empty and use it to hit the tank's side/rear armour.


On a side note, I see alot of people saying the vendetta has to "stay still" to make use of it's triple twin linked lascannons, I'm not sure if it's hyperbole or they don't know fast vehicle rules, and maybe it's been pointed out, but they can still move 6" a turn and unload all 3.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Quick q, why did you call Pete Haines pg 41?

Because the man made his own personal army Uber in the Real Chaos Codex. What army? Iron Warriors. And what page of the Real Chaos Codex are they on? Yep, you guessed it, Page 41...

(As I haven't looked at the Real Chaos Codex in a while, if I'm wrong about the page reference, Page 41 could be the Thousand Sons section, which he totally Tzscrewed over with his Tzcrap Tzrules, but I doubt it)

H.B.M.C. wrote:I wouldn't call a min-maxed out tha whazoo list 'fun', Reecius. 9 Vendys and 9 Griffons looks decidedly dull to me, no matter how 'effective' it may be.

Hey brother, one man's fun is another man's getting reamed by the might of the Imperium!

I would never actually build that list for a lot of reasons, it's just fun to play make believ, I mean that is what internet land is for, right?

In all honesty, my list will hardly change upon codex release, jus tno more airborne infantry, which is annoying. But my 3 10 man Vet squads are loving life with the points decrease. I had them all set up at 10 men with 3 plasma and a las cannon. Actually, with plasma going up they are slightly more costly, but oh well, they are still very effective.

I am stoked on the info we have, guard are going to have hundreds of different lists now, which is fantastic.

Just the dang Ogryns. All they need is a power weapon or fist for the Bone ead. The way they are now, they will lose through combat res to a good assault unit and get run down. A shame really.

Well, mine will just have to be a counts as GKT squad.

Codex: any army with 2 wounds has got a lot going for it

Quick question: does using the Chimera's sunroof still make it open-topped?

Raxmei wrote:Quick question: does using the Chimera's sunroof still make it open-topped?

Everyone who is saying anything, is saying no

Quick question HBMC, what is the "Real Chaos Codex" you speak of?


-A.

The one before the current pile of gak.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

middle wrote:HB can be a Lascannon for 15.

I'd like everyone to note that this is a 5 point increase on the cost of a Hull Lascannon. Right now, Hull weapons on a Russ are +5 for an HB, +15 for a Lascannon. With the new 'Dex HB's come as standard, so the +15 is really a +20 from no weapon.

middle wrote:Sponson HB/HF for 20. MM for 30. PC for 40 ( All variants. Means Standard Russ can have PC / MM ). SB/HS 10. HK 10. Dozer 10. Extra armour 15. Entire squadron: Camo netting for 20.

Love to know what mythical magical land 2 BS3 Plasma Cannons are worth 40-fething-points.

Just had to respond to this, as it made my head hurt. In what fanciful made up Math are you using where 15pts becomes more than 15pts? I could have sworn this book wasn't using any sort of Quantum Physics or any other Higher Levels of math in order to make a list, so help me out here in figuring out how 15pts is some how _more_ than 15pts. I'll allow you time to retort with some sort of response that doesn't involve you making up a straw man argument about the Heavy Bolter.

Secondly the PC is priced to dissuade players from using it, as 2 PC sponsoons is far far superior (BS3 PC "hits" as often as any other Scatter weapon, 1 in 3), If it were priced "reasonably" you'd never ever see a Russ without them.


Lastly, I wonder how long it will take people to realize that Vendetta Spamming isn't nessecary. And that a HWS can be used effectively. watch and wait.

ShumaGorath wrote:I'm taking game design courses right now (both board/card/and computer) and you would be amazed how easy it is to make bi polar design decisions. Not for me of course, I tend to edge on too little variation, but some people just don't understand how to balance a game system. Often times these people are the wacky artsy types that would want to make a game like FATAL (or besm, fatals cousin).

Yowza. You do BESM a grave injustice to compare it with FATAL. Granted, I don't know it, but it cannot be as bad as the game which has a separate chart for Fist Circumference.

augfubuoy wrote:Quick question HBMC, what is the "Real Chaos Codex" you speak of?


-A.

H.B.M.C. wrote:The one before the current pile of gak.

QFT.

I would love to pull out my Chaos Army again and actually play with it. I just couldnt justify re-buying almost 2/3rds my army when the new dex came out. Wouldnt of been so bad... if it didnt loose all the fluff goodness and flavor.... not to mention its fangs.

strange_eric wrote:Just had to respond to this, as it made my head hurt. In what fanciful made up Math are you using where 15pts becomes more than 15pts? I could have sworn this book wasn't using any sort of Quantum Physics or any other Higher Levels of math in order to make a list, so help me out here in figuring out how 15pts is some how _more_ than 15pts. I'll allow you time to retort with some sort of response that doesn't involve you making up a straw man argument about the Heavy Bolter.

The theory would go, Assuming that in the old codex a Leman Russ costs X points, it can have a 5 pt bolter(X+5 total), or a 15 point lascannon(X+15 total), as you can see, there is a point difference of 10 points.

With the new Leman Russ(cost Y base), it includes a bolter, so the math would be Y = X+5, but then it pays 15 points on top of this for a lascannon, Y = X+5+15 : Y = X+20, It's a 15 point upgrade to the modern leman russ, but is equivalent to paying 20 points on the older one.

I don't know if that's as clear as I think it is, but rest assured his comment does make sense, although I think it's a silly thing to express, because right now a hull lascannon on a leman russ is a fancy pole if it moves at all. But that's just my opinion.

I have to come in here... the vendetta freakout is a little bit much. Let me put out some comparable cost comparisons and a note on the limitations of squadrons.

First and foremost. Don't worry about 9 vendettas. a squad of 3 will put 6.75 lascannon hits on something for 390 points. If that 'something' is a vehicle that isn't squadroned, it can only die once. If that unit is not a vehicle, it'll have a cover save, and you just witnessed an impressive waste of 390 points. Btw, those 6.75 hits go into a land raider that popped smoke... you only end up with 1.12 glances/pens.

If you face 9 vendettas, then your vehicles that aren't under a KFF or smoke launchers are boned. But you are only facing 600 points of army after all those lascannons have flashed in the pan.

heres something you can get for 395

3x3 lascannon HWS 315
company command 50
platoon command 30

4 out of 5 of these squads are scoring units. 6 of these lascannons are twin-linked when the unit passes its leadership test (55% of the time) and 3 of these lascannons are strength 10. The whole thing will have a 4+ cover save. And the three HWS can each fire at a different unit.

I'll do you one better. Add this guy...

commissar lord 70

make sure he is within 6" of the HWS and now you have a 91% chance to pass orders. So thats the same 9 lascannons, as troops, that can split their fire, or fire sequentially (to see if the first three lascannons killed the target) that don't run from shooting, that don't shut off on crew shaken results, and exist as three seperate entities for targeting. Costs 75 more points, but since those units are scoring you aren't taking away from the core of your list.


How about this unit.

10x veterans 3x meltaguns 100 points
chimera 55

Only 2 hits instead of 2.25. Only 12" range, but brings an additional multi-laser and heavy bolter (which obviously can fire at a seperate target), at 6" range the 2 meltagun hits yield more destroyed results than the vendetta's lascannons, and its a troop choice... for 25 more points.



I didn't put these units up here to say that the vendetta isn't good. What I'm pointing out is that there are other just as viable ways of getting tank kill into your list.

If you want to have infantry platoons supported by tanks and artillery, you can certainly use HWS to kill stuff from range. If you've got tons of troops, you're probably taking company command squads and aura producers like the commissar lord anyway. He really makes those orders go off.

If you want to be mechanized and don't feel like calling in the navy, you can certainly accomplish your hard target tank kill with veterans in chimeras, and keep your heavy support killing infantry.


Can we look at a properly equipped valkyrie again before we throw it away? Heres how i'd build mine.

multilaser, multiple missile pods, HB doors 140

ok 10 points more than the vendetta, but here is what you get. Move 6" fire 6 heavy bolters, 3 multi-lasers, and 2 LARGE blast markers.
Or move 12" fire 3 multi-laser shots and still get 2 large blast markers. Creative use of the tall flight stand and out-flank can mitigate cover saves taken on those large blasts. If you want to save 10 points you can drop those door gunners, then you can fire at full effectiveness after deepstriking or moving 12" every turn. Comparing this vehicle to the vendetta is impossible.

You'll say you can get infantry kill in other slots. I'll say I can get tank kill in other slots. The point is, both the valkyrie and the vendetta are upgunned, expensive and effective fast transports, when properly equipped. Which you choose has more to do with what your list is missing, and less to do with which one is a 'no-brainer'

Its fun to try and rip codexes apart. But in this particular case, the vendetta, although very usable and very cool, is not going to be the only show in town.

strange_eric wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

middle wrote:HB can be a Lascannon for 15.

I'd like everyone to note that this is a 5 point increase on the cost of a Hull Lascannon. Right now, Hull weapons on a Russ are +5 for an HB, +15 for a Lascannon. With the new 'Dex HB's come as standard, so the +15 is really a +20 from no weapon.

Just had to respond to this, as it made my head hurt. In what fanciful made up Math are you using where 15pts becomes more than 15pts? I could have sworn this book wasn't using any sort of Quantum Physics or any other Higher Levels of math in order to make a list, so help me out here in figuring out how 15pts is some how _more_ than 15pts. I'll allow you time to retort with some sort of response that doesn't involve you making up a straw man argument about the Heavy Bolter.

It's not complicated math.

Current IG Codex:
A LRBT costs 140 pts, with a mandatory hull-mounted weapon: HB @ +5 pts, LC @ +15 pts. Total cost: 145 or 155 pts; there is a 10 pt difference between the two.

New IG Codex:
A LRBT comes with the hull-mounted HB. Buying the LC costs an additional +15 pts. The spread between a HB LRBT and a LC LRBT is now 15 points.

Secondly the PC is priced to dissuade players from using it, as 2 PC sponsoons is far far superior (BS3 PC "hits" as often as any other Scatter weapon, 1 in 3), If it were priced "reasonably" you'd never ever see a Russ without them.

This is stupid game design. They have control over the legal options. If they don't want a standard Russ to have PC sponsons, they can write it that way. (And, in fact, they have been for several decades now.)

Points aren't supposed to be punitive; they are supposed to have some relation to the actual in-game value of the option.

Lastly, I wonder how long it will take people to realize that Vendetta Spamming isn't nessecary. And that a HWS can be used effectively. watch and wait.

Please don't confuse "effective" with "optimal." HWSs may be effective; they don't appear to be optimal.

strange_eric wrote:Just had to respond to this, as it made my head hurt. In what fanciful made up Math are you using where 15pts becomes more than 15pts? I could have sworn this book wasn't using any sort of Quantum Physics or any other Higher Levels of math in order to make a list, so help me out here in figuring out how 15pts is some how _more_ than 15pts. I'll allow you time to retort with some sort of response that doesn't involve you making up a straw man argument about the Heavy Bolter.

Janthkin covered it better than I did, but to put my own spin on it:

Lern too math!!!2

Old Codex - Heavy Bolter +5 or Lascannon +15 (145 or 155)
New Codex - Heavy Bolter standard, upgrade to Lascannon still +15 (150 or 165)
Therefore - New Lascannon more expensive.

Enough straw for ya?

Secondly the PC is priced to dissuade players from using it, as 2 PC sponsoons is far far superior (BS3 PC "hits" as often as any other Scatter weapon, 1 in 3), If it were priced "reasonably" you'd never ever see a Russ without them.

If you truly believe that... wow...

Drunkspleen wrote:I don't know if that's as clear as I think it is, but rest assured his comment does make sense, although I think it's a silly thing to express, because right now a hull lascannon on a leman russ is a fancy pole if it moves at all. But that's just my opinion.

Yes but they're already put the cost of the tank up, so why make something more expensive just because now we get to use it? It wasn't worth its points before because, as you said, it was a fancy pole that waggled - it didn't do anything. But now it is worth its points... and Arby puts the cost up. My only solace is the fact that it is at least consistent with the rest of the pricing in the Codex. The Lascannon is 20 points in the Guard, therefore a Lascannon replacing a HB for +15 means the HB is worth 5 (or should be... or something). Problem lies in the fact that if you base weapon points costs on Ballistic Skill you run into odd situations where a Lascannon is somehow worth 20 points on an AV14 vehicle, an AV10 Open-Topped Walker and a T3 W2 Sv5+ model... when really their cost should be based on the platform the weapon lies on (less on the weaker things, more on the tougher things).

Well, a hull lascannon will be fire *much* more frequently than it is currently... Now granted on a LRBT you may just be firing the aforementioned lascannon at a MEQ... but still

Honestly, LRDemolisher w/ a hull Lascannon makes for a pretty good tankhunter/termi killer. At least (unlike the Vanquisher) it can still drop pie.

I don't get the problem with "power builds".
Isn't there always something like this in every new Codex?

Eldar have incredibly powerful Harlequins and tanks.

Orks have really mean cheap infantry, but no one even touches Looted Wagons and Flash Gitz in a competive environment.

I'm sure there's more if we look for it....


Still, I don't really care that much if Ogryn's are overpriced and don't work well with any other kind of IG unit. I still want them. Ogryns are cool. They'll look cool in my Nurgle-themed traitor guard army and I'm sure I'll find a way to make them fit into an airborne division.

All of the above does not mean, that I don't enjoy H.B.M.C. rants.

Here's a few questions:
Are CHQ indeed 50 and PHQ 30?
Can we take multiple CHQs?
Is Creed an upgrade to a CHQ? +80 or 90 points on top of the 50?
EDIT: And are bodyguards seriously 30 points each?

Agamemnon2 wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:I'm taking game design courses right now (both board/card/and computer) and you would be amazed how easy it is to make bi polar design decisions. Not for me of course, I tend to edge on too little variation, but some people just don't understand how to balance a game system. Often times these people are the wacky artsy types that would want to make a game like FATAL (or besm, fatals cousin).

Yowza. You do BESM a grave injustice to compare it with FATAL. Granted, I don't know it, but it cannot be as bad as the game which has a separate chart for Fist Circumference.

BESM = Big Eyes, Small Mouth. It's the Anime RPG. It's worse than co-starring in a donkey show.

The IG won't come out as the stand alone top army in tournaments, but they will join the rocks-papper-scissors circle at the top tables. Certain IG builds have the capability oif taking on most of the top lists and coming out ahead more often than not. There are IG builds that beat LR spam, Ork Horde, and Lash Chaos. There is no one IG build that can do it all. It will be difficult to metagame against the IG because of all there possible builds.

Now some people might say this is a weakness of the codex that one list can't 'rule them all', but I don't think so. It will turn the IG into a wild card which the other top lists will have to hope they can avoid during a tournament. The IG codex is beginning to spread the wealth around and taking away 1-2 top builds in favor of many more possibilities. I hope this trend continues with the other new army releases, but in reality the IG variety is what has done this more so than any devious plan from the top.

Has anyone thought about how allies will work now? Can i take 2 exorcists and 1-3 Lemanruss battle tanks in my WH army?

Ivan: Psyker battle squads are just an elites choice, so yarp, you can run 3.

NinjaRay wrote:but nothing says he's infallible or not missing some small details that could make all the difference in the world.

Completely true. I'm writing what I saw. I'm not saying I saw everything. The staffer gave me some GW paper and a GW pen and said it Would be fine to make notes on anything that could be useful in my army. My army is guard and everything is useful to me. Hey if I missed something i'm sorry.

I wouldn't call them rumours, but if you want it word for word then buy the dex and don't read this. I'm just helping the folks who won't be getting their previews for two weeks or so. You want rumours, go to warseer. Multimelta sentinels, ha!

It's public knowledge over here and it should be public knowledge over there if you haven't got yours yet.

ikew: Straken replaces the Company Comander, as does Creed. Al'rahem and Chenkov replace Platoon commanders.

tomguycot : SWS and HWS may not have a vox. I presume this is to tone down making your opponent re-roll cover saves from 3 demo charges and 3 lascannons by not giving the orders re-rolls.. They may still be given ordes normally though so it's not out of the window. I'm thinking thatt one Platoon Commander can babysit some HWS while the other Platoon Commander can run round with the inf.

ph34r: CCS is 50. PCS is 30.

No limits on the CCS. You do not have to have one and you may have two. You can have Yarrick and a Commissar lord lead an army if you like.

With creed and Straken you pay their points on top of the 50 for the CCS. If you call it 7 points a vet then thats an extra 22 points on top of Creeds 90. Oh so cheap.

Bodyguards are 15 each and you may have 2 in each CCS. I have a feeling Nork replaces one if not both if you have bought any ( so you just wouldn't ).

frgsinwntr wrote:Has anyone thought about how allies will work now? Can i take 2 exorcists and 1-3 Lemanruss battle tanks in my WH army?

While no doubt possible, I probably wouldn't invest in the extra russes because I have a strong feeling that the Witch Hunters gets redone, they'll take away the whole allies rule.

If Chaos Marines can't call in Chaos Daemons, I doubt Inquisition will be able to call in Marines and IG anymore. I could be wrong, but that's what my gut tells me.

Ubik Lives wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:Has anyone thought about how allies will work now? Can i take 2 exorcists and 1-3 Lemanruss battle tanks in my WH army?

While no doubt possible, I probably wouldn't invest in the extra russes because I have a strong feeling that the Witch Hunters gets redone, they'll take away the whole allies rule.

If Chaos Marines can't call in Chaos Daemons, I doubt Inquisition will be able to call in Marines and IG anymore. I could be wrong, but that's what my gut tells me.

I agree, but I know the WH and DH codices will be the last ones on the table for revision. The WH one would require a whole new line of minis... remember the sisters metal models are from like the late 80's...

even if I don't have them personally... I have the Russes I can borrow

middle, your suggestion that an army could be lead by Yarrick and a Commisar Lord has struck my fancy, fostering a new line of questions.

Is Yarrick still fearless or just stubborn? I would imagine he's just stubborn now, but does that mean that he will now carry out summary executions? Or does he lead any unit he joins, giving them his Ld right off the bat (and avoiding any execution messiness)?

Here's another question about the HQ section:
Does the Commisar Lord carry out summary executions?
Can he have a bodyguard?
Can his Bodyguard get a Melta?

I think some of you know where I'm going with this

Anung Un Rama wrote:Does the Commisar Lord carry out summary executions?
Can he have a bodyguard?
Can his Bodyguard get a Melta?

I think some of you know where I'm going with this

You want to execute your own Meltagunners?

BoxANT wrote:Well, a hull lascannon will be fire *much* more frequently than it is currently... Now granted on a LRBT you may just be firing the aforementioned lascannon at a MEQ... but still

Honestly, LRDemolisher w/ a hull Lascannon makes for a pretty good tankhunter/termi killer. At least (unlike the Vanquisher) it can still drop pie.

Actually, this observation right here justifies the +5 points on the lascannon for the LRBT, I believe.

Previously, you payed 15 points for a lascannon that you hoped you would never have to fire during the game (if you were firing it, odds are the battle cannon was gone).

Now, you pay 20 points for a lascannon that can fire even when you fire the battle cannon. I think this increase in cost for the lascannon is a reflection of the increased in game utility of taking that option.

I'm following the threads for couple of months now, and I see some children in the playground.
Some of you guys are rant around wanting this and that.
I like to play so I play if I loose, don't care. Maybe you should play more with your friends just for the fun. And rant less.
Sometimes you look like in my language : "Csapkodja magát a földhöz" = Dropping yourself to ground several times. We use this to little children being illogical and stubborn.
This goes to the usual suspects.

ikew wrote:middle, your suggestion that an army could be lead by Yarrick and a Commisar Lord has struck my fancy, fostering a new line of questions.

Is Yarrick still fearless or just stubborn? I would imagine he's just stubborn now, but does that mean that he will now carry out summary executions? Or does he lead any unit he joins, giving them his Ld right off the bat (and avoiding any execution messiness)?

Yarrick and his unit are fearless, all units within 12" of Yarrick are stubborn. Also, on the turn Yarrick and his unit charges, they get to re-roll missed hits (like a SM Chaplain)

Also, when Yarrick loses his last wound, he doesn't die, you place him on his side. At the start of his next turn, on a D6 roll of 3+ he gets back up with 1 wound (on a 1 or 2 he dies)

He has his Eye, which in the shooting phase counts as a hot-shot laspistol. And he has a force field where any wounds that are allocated to Yarrick must be re-rolled (doesn't specify shooting or cc)

EDIT: he's also Eternal Warrior, and everyone in 6" can use his LD (just like a Lord Commissar) he doesn't get the execution thing though.

frgsinwntr wrote:

Ubik Lives wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:Has anyone thought about how allies will work now? Can i take 2 exorcists and 1-3 Lemanruss battle tanks in my WH army?

While no doubt possible, I probably wouldn't invest in the extra russes because I have a strong feeling that the Witch Hunters gets redone, they'll take away the whole allies rule.

If Chaos Marines can't call in Chaos Daemons, I doubt Inquisition will be able to call in Marines and IG anymore. I could be wrong, but that's what my gut tells me.

I agree, but I know the WH and DH codices will be the last ones on the table for revision. The WH one would require a whole new line of minis... remember the sisters metal models are from like the late 80's...

even if I don't have them personally... I have the Russes I can borrow

i'm also itching to take some SOB in with my guard army (don't own any yet other than an inquisitor and retinue). i used to love the exorcist but the new vehicle damage rules limit it's effectiveness against av14 tanks. unless they're opentopped, the exorcist will realistically never destroy them due to only getting glances. theoretically, he could immobilize and then weapon destroy everthing and then get another roll but that's unlikely due to having to roll a 6 to even glance av14. granted, av14 tanks are a rarity outside IG but it's still an important point. as for the metal sister models, they're from about the mid to late 90's with the majority from the trailing end of 2nd edition; overall, i think they've held up nicely for 10 years. i'd definitely like a set of plastics though...


@HBMC

is your heroic senior officer title custom? if so, what will you be changing it to after may 2nd?

Experimental list 1! Lots going on, and TONS of conscripts! It is EXACTLY 2,000pts

CHQ
Creed
Medic
Regimental Banner
Lasgun
Lasgun
Body Guard
Bodyguard
Chimera (Extra Armor, Heavy Stubber)

Platoon 1
PHQ
Chenkov
Vox
Medic
Plasma
Plasma
Commissar w/ power weapon
Squad 1
Lasguns, 1 Grenade Launcher, Heavy Bolter, Vox
Squad 2
Lasguns, 1 Grenade Launcher, Heavy Bolter, Vox
50 Conscripts (Send in the next wave)

Platoon 2
PHQ
Lieutenant
Vox
Medic
Plasma
Plasma
Commissar w/ power weapon
Squad 1
Lasguns, 1 Grenade Launcher, Heavy Bolter, Vox
Squad 2
Lasguns, 1 Grenade Launcher, Heavy Bolter, Vox
50 Conscripts (Send in the next wave)

3 Griffins (Camo Netting)
Demolisher (LC, 2 PC, Extra Armor, Dozer Blade)

H.B.M.C. wrote:

strange_eric wrote:Just had to respond to this, as it made my head hurt. In what fanciful made up Math are you using where 15pts becomes more than 15pts? I could have sworn this book wasn't using any sort of Quantum Physics or any other Higher Levels of math in order to make a list, so help me out here in figuring out how 15pts is some how _more_ than 15pts. I'll allow you time to retort with some sort of response that doesn't involve you making up a straw man argument about the Heavy Bolter.

Janthkin covered it better than I did, but to put my own spin on it:

Lern too math!!!2

Old Codex - Heavy Bolter +5 or Lascannon +15 (145 or 155)
New Codex - Heavy Bolter standard, upgrade to Lascannon still +15 (150 or 165)
Therefore - New Lascannon more expensive.

Enough straw for ya?

That argument would only truly hold weight if the Russ between both books are exactly the same. The factor that the Leman Russ tank is getting much better for only a marginal points increase, should be taken into account.

I would agree that the Hull Lascannon will be a rare thing still, as there will still be better places to put Lascannons then on a Russ who's fire is best put elsewhere. I could possibly see a Knight Commander Vanquisher with Lascannon and MM Sponsons, but only rarely.

Personally I can't wait to stick the Knight Cammander in a Punisher, for no other reasons then the look on certain green faces.

I would like to see what the math is on a Knight Commander Punisher versus Nob Bikers.

Quistis84 wrote:

ikew wrote:middle, your suggestion that an army could be lead by Yarrick and a Commisar Lord has struck my fancy, fostering a new line of questions.

Is Yarrick still fearless or just stubborn? I would imagine he's just stubborn now, but does that mean that he will now carry out summary executions? Or does he lead any unit he joins, giving them his Ld right off the bat (and avoiding any execution messiness)?

Yarrick and his unit are fearless, all units within 12" of Yarrick are stubborn. Also, on the turn Yarrick and his unit charges, they get to re-roll missed hits (like a SM Chaplain)

Also, when Yarrick loses his last wound, he doesn't die, you place him on his side. At the start of his next turn, on a D6 roll of 3+ he gets back up with 1 wound (on a 1 or 2 he dies)

He has his Eye, which in the shooting phase counts as a hot-shot laspistol. And he has a force field where any wounds that are allocated to Yarrick must be re-rolled (doesn't specify shooting or cc)

EDIT: he's also Eternal Warrior, and everyone in 6" can use his LD (just like a Lord Commissar) he doesn't get the execution thing though.

Yarrick + Ogryns = Fun

Yarrick + Ogryns = ouch!

Saldiven wrote:

Now, you pay 20 points for a lascannon that can fire even when you fire the battle cannon. I think this increase in cost for the lascannon is a reflection of the increased in game utility of taking that option.

But... but the LR increased in cost! Didn't we pay for the 'increased utility' from the more expensive chasis? (well, given the points increase of MM/PC, Cruddace says "no").

In the same vein, touching on what HBMC said, why should we pay more for the same gun on a tougher chasis? We already paid for the toughness! If we lowered the cost of a Sentinel's LC so we can take multiples and get the same number of shots per game (A LR will usually get 3-5, whereas each sentinel will get 1-2 if they're lucky), then people will just take sentinels, then we have target saturation! Too many targets, not reasonable to expect the opponent to even have enough shots to take them all out.

... But then again they are in piddly little squadrons so one Marine Vet Sgt stands an amazingly good chance of busting them all in one round of combat...

This line is withdrawn..

My question is how many points is Straken in addition to the command squad? I'm seriously tempted by this mean man. He might make it worth having a medic

Take two on my Chenkov list:

CHQ
Creed
Medic
Regimental Banner
Lasgun
Lasgun
Body Guard
Bodyguard
Chimera (Extra Armor, Heavy Stubber)

Platoon 1
PHQ
Chenkov
Vox
Medic
Plasma
Plasma
Squad 1
Lasguns, 1 Grenade Launcher, Heavy Bolter, Vox
Squad 2
Lasguns, 1 Grenade Launcher, Heavy Bolter
Commissar
Priest
50 Conscripts (Send in the next wave)

Platoon 2
PHQ
Lieutenant
Vox
Medic
Lasgun
Lasgun
Squad 1
Lasguns, 1 Grenade Launcher, Heavy Bolter, Vox
Squad 2
Lasguns, 1 Grenade Launcher, Heavy Bolter
50 Conscripts

3 Griffins
3 Separate Vendettas

Once again EXACTLY 2,000pts

Hulksmash wrote:My question is how many points is Straken in addition to the command squad? I'm seriously tempted by this mean man. He might make it worth having a medic

Colonel Straken is 95 points (on top of the 50 points for the command squad)

Mahu wrote:
I would like to see what the math is on a Knight Commander Punisher versus Nob Bikers.

29 s5 shots at bs 4 with rerolls to wound, right?

29 shots -> 20 hits -> 15 wounds -> 5 past cover save -> 2.5 wounds past FNP.

I'm not impressed.

warboss wrote:@HBMC

is your heroic senior officer title custom? if so, what will you be changing it to after may 2nd?

Nope, it's just exceedingly high on the Guard Rank Track. If you don't see the DCM(like on mine), Mod(of any flavor), or Admin tag, it isn't custom.

glory wrote:

Mahu wrote:
I would like to see what the math is on a Knight Commander Punisher versus Nob Bikers.

29 s5 shots at bs 4 with rerolls to wound, right?

29 shots -> 20 hits -> 15 wounds -> 5 past cover save -> 2.5 wounds past FNP.

I'm not impressed.

Ehh, it was worth a try, but still the combination will be sick against most units.

warboss wrote:i'm also itching to take some SOB in with my guard army (don't own any yet other than an inquisitor and retinue). i used to love the exorcist but the new vehicle damage rules limit it's effectiveness against av14 tanks. unless they're opentopped, the exorcist will realistically never destroy them due to only getting glances. theoretically, he could immobilize and then weapon destroy everthing and then get another roll but that's unlikely due to having to roll a 6 to even glance av14.

The Exorcist, being AP 1, only has a net -1 to the damage tables on a glance; a '6' will still destroy the target.

Mahu wrote:Personally I can't wait to stick the Knight Cammander in a Punisher, for no other reasons then the look on certain green faces.

I would like to see what the math is on a Knight Commander Punisher versus Nob Bikers.

The math against rank and file Shoota and Slugga Boyz is much more frightening. Looks to be about 20 dead Orks per turn. Even 30 man squads will be taking LD checks from one round of shooting, from one tank.

Of course there will be enough Lascannons to take out the Biker Nobs so they won't be an issue.

Any chance of putting that tank commander in a Baneblade in bigger games?

Janthkin wrote:

warboss wrote:i'm also itching to take some SOB in with my guard army (don't own any yet other than an inquisitor and retinue). i used to love the exorcist but the new vehicle damage rules limit it's effectiveness against av14 tanks. unless they're opentopped, the exorcist will realistically never destroy them due to only getting glances. theoretically, he could immobilize and then weapon destroy everthing and then get another roll but that's unlikely due to having to roll a 6 to even glance av14.

The Exorcist, being AP 1, only has a net -1 to the damage tables on a glance; a '6' will still destroy the target.

sweet! i didn't realize that. great, now i have to buy new IG models AND you're tempting me to get the SOB army i've always wanted to accompany my marines and IG. ever since the 3rd edition core book came out, i wanted an army at 5, 10, and 15pts a basic trooper.

Platuan4th wrote:

warboss wrote:@HBMC

is your heroic senior officer title custom? if so, what will you be changing it to after may 2nd?

Nope, it's just exceedingly high on the Guard Rank Track. If you don't see the DCM(like on mine), Mod(of any flavor), or Admin tag, it isn't custom.

so dakka will have to change some ranks then in order to stay current after may 2nd... thanks!

Is it just me, or do Veterans seem like a steal? 70 Pts. for 10, scoring, BS 4, 3 Specials that can be fired out of the top of a Chimera, and Krak grenades to boot for a little extra versatility.

Although there's a lot of enthusiasm about the Vendetta, I think that the Chimera changes make it into a real workhorse tank that will make it seeing a lot more use. Low cost plus high utility is making me consider mounting a lot of units that I never had considered giving a transport.

More random thoughts about our new skimmers:

While I think the Vendetta is great, I'm less certain than I was yesterday that it's dramatically underpriced. With it's height, it will not get cover saves unless moving fast (and therefore not shooting). Armor 12 is not bad, but I don't see one of these guys firing all its guns more than twice a game unless really lucky.

does it have to use the big flight stand? i'm afraid of the klutzes knocking the table with their legs (including me!). that model will take some serious damage from a fall at that height. also, how do you handle HTH with a model that "high"? as long as they touch the base they're in? but you have to draw shooting range to the actual model? it's needlessly more complicated in a game that (this edition) has been striving to be uncomplicated. i'll either put mine on the table or make the base less high.

Biophysic wrote:While I think the Vendetta is great, I'm less certain than I was yesterday that it's dramatically underpriced. With it's height, it will not get cover saves unless moving fast (and therefore not shooting). Armor 12 is not bad, but I don't see one of these guys firing all its guns more than twice a game unless really lucky.

It can make for an excellent flanker - 24" scout to move to an extreme edge of the table, where the opponent has relatively few guns with range to answer. It's the sort of tactical movement non-drop Guard haven't had a lot of in recent years (read: since 3E made vehicles slow & bland).

Biophysic wrote: I think that the Chimera changes make it into a real workhorse tank that will make it seeing a lot more use. Low cost plus high utility is making me consider mounting a lot of units that I never had considered giving a transport.

Yeah, with the new improved firing points it is more useful. I'm thinking flamers against hormagaunts...

BrookM wrote:Any chance of putting that tank commander in a Baneblade in bigger games?

All signs point to yes.

Kungfuhustler wrote:BESM = Big Eyes, Small Mouth. It's the Anime RPG. It's worse than co-starring in a donkey show.

FATAL = Fantasy Adventure to Adult Lechery. It's the insanely violent, misogynist, racist, sexist and illogical RPG. BESM next to it is like Silvio Berlusconi against Genghis Khan.

Quistis84 wrote:Yarrick + Ogryns = ouch!

Its not that good really. 4 ogryn, 1 bone'ead, and Yarrick is 395 points. Even on the charge they will swing last vs any decent CC unit, will almost always lose combat albeit being able to take the wounds and more, but then if Yarrick makes them fearless they will take a whole bunch more. Even not counting fearless they lose combat to 5 bloodcrushers, which are half their points. Ogryns are only good vs hordes, something that IG has other ways of dealing with. I really want to use Ogryns but not even Yarrick can make them anything more than a speedbump. Even the 'casual' player will have trouble justifying taking them as it takes a huge chunk away from other 'fun' units they could have instead.

Also consider that Yarrick alone is worth 4 Ogryns. Nah, it's much better to take a 76 point Canoness with a Blessed Weapon and bolt pistol as the Ogryns' Morale Buddy.

Is the "5 fire points" on the Chimera bothering anyone else?

WHERE THE HELL ARE THEY?!

If they're supposed to be the lasgun ports... why only 5, when there are 6? And what of the back hatch?

Are all 5 supposed to fire out the hatch? And if so, what of the lasguns?

Is it supposed to represent a 'broadside', in that 2 are firing from the hatch, and you can only fire 3 'lasguns' per side? In which case, won't opponents argue that you're CHANGING your fire points mid game when you go from shooting out the left to shooting out the right?

I know it's a rather minor thing... but it's bugging the ever loving crap out of me.

Personally, I'm using the back hatch for all 5.

Ubik Lives wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:Has anyone thought about how allies will work now? Can i take 2 exorcists and 1-3 Lemanruss battle tanks in my WH army?

While no doubt possible, I probably wouldn't invest in the extra russes because I have a strong feeling that the Witch Hunters gets redone, they'll take away the whole allies rule.

If Chaos Marines can't call in Chaos Daemons, I doubt Inquisition will be able to call in Marines and IG anymore. I could be wrong, but that's what my gut tells me.

Actually, if you look closely at the WH list, the wording specifically says "0-1 Leman Russ Battle Tank". Doesn't seem to give much wiggle room to either use a Leman Russ variant or a squadron of them.

Okay, so I've been thinking about the Devil Dog and it's melta cannon and I'm curious as to how this will work. The melta cannon has a range of 24", small blast, and is a melta weapon, right? Okay, because it's a blast weapon, you place the blast marker over the target and roll the scatter and 2D6-3. Let's say you place the marker over a target that is just at 12" so you can get the 2D6 pen. But when you roll for scatter, you wind up an inch beyond at 13". Does that mean I don't get my 2D6 pen?

I'm going to gamble getting within 12" of my target just so I can get that 2D6 pen. Because that could very easily put me into a charge range for something that will destroy my vehicle. And you're saying that there's a good chance that I won't even be able to get that bonus? That's pretty crappy.

@ Middle-

Any word on whether the Storms re-roll Deep-Strike is conveyed to the valk if they're loaded in it?

I'm really intersted in the idea of an Air Cavalry spearhead in front of a small mech force.



@Everyone with allies- Is it just me or did the New BRB forces of the Imperium make it seem like the next Deamon hunter and witch hunters might be an all in one codex? If they actually did such they would still probably allow allies but then again maybe not.

AlexCage wrote:But... but the LR increased in cost! Didn't we pay for the 'increased utility' from the more expensive chasis? (well, given the points increase of MM/PC, Cruddace says "no").

One assumption you and H.B.M.C. both make is that the old cost was completely correct that no upwards cost correction was needed. The effectiveness of Leman Russ' I think can justify a higher hull cost. I think the weapon upgrades are bit higher than they should be, sponsons would be more appropriate at 5pts less across the board.

AlexCage wrote:Is the "5 fire points" on the Chimera bothering anyone else?

WHERE THE HELL ARE THEY?!

If they're supposed to be the lasgun ports... why only 5, when there are 6? And what of the back hatch?

Are all 5 supposed to fire out the hatch? And if so, what of the lasguns?

Is it supposed to represent a 'broadside', in that 2 are firing from the hatch, and you can only fire 3 'lasguns' per side? In which case, won't opponents argue that you're CHANGING your fire points mid game when you go from shooting out the left to shooting out the right?

I know it's a rather minor thing... but it's bugging the ever loving crap out of me.

Personally, I'm using the back hatch for all 5.

I think you have the general gist of why GW simplified it to 5 firing points (probably out the hatch). The whole 6 lasguns thing wasn't exactly something covered in the core rule book and would just needlessly take up room in the codex. I think this was a well executed move for simplifying a needless rule that was generally inconsistent with the main rules.

I'm loving all this. I can already see how my army will be shaping up now. There are still plenty of competitive options for the tourney players and I think once the book is out and people really start figuring out what to do you will see lots of cool and powerful lists. and for the people like me who just want fun and fluffy lists and lose all the time there's still tons of options for armies that look really awesome as I remove casualties by the double-handfull. I guess my only real gripe is with the heavy weapon squads dying so much easier, but oh well. I will still use them just because I spent money on em.

I'm selling mine. What a waste.

Well, I have now confirmed everything MIDDLE has posted is true!

I posted a compilation of his posts over at LO, and the post got deleted/locked for copyright infringement!

And that is why I've Warwicked (i.e. copy/pasted) mine and saved it on my hard drive.

Death By Monkeys wrote:And that is why I've Warwicked (i.e. copy/pasted) mine and saved it on my hard drive.

Does this mean that you've been freelanced to write the IA Volume 1 FAQ/update?

Platuan4th wrote:

Death By Monkeys wrote:And that is why I've Warwicked (i.e. copy/pasted) mine and saved it on my hard drive.

Does this mean that you've been freelanced to write the IA Volume 1 FAQ/update?

Death By Monkeys wrote:Okay, so I've been thinking about the Devil Dog and it's melta cannon and I'm curious as to how this will work. The melta cannon has a range of 24", small blast, and is a melta weapon, right? Okay, because it's a blast weapon, you place the blast marker over the target and roll the scatter and 2D6-3. Let's say you place the marker over a target that is just at 12" so you can get the 2D6 pen. But when you roll for scatter, you wind up an inch beyond at 13". Does that mean I don't get my 2D6 pen?

I'm going to gamble getting within 12" of my target just so I can get that 2D6 pen. Because that could very easily put me into a charge range for something that will destroy my vehicle. And you're saying that there's a good chance that I won't even be able to get that bonus? That's pretty crappy.

The wording in the BGB for melta says if the weapon is half range or less... so RAW, the final position of the blast marker should be irrelevant.

Sounds like a future YMDC topic.

ubermosher wrote:The wording in the BGB for melta says if the weapon is half range or less... so RAW, the final position of the blast marker should be irrelevant.

Sounds like a future YMDC topic.

Ahhh...good point, good point! Okay, that alleviates some of my fears a little.

Solution: Say "Screw it" and fire the Multi-Melta!

... Wait... that's a terrible idea...


But still, who else is psyched about Devildogs with Multi-Meltas? Anyone?


Oh! Hey small question, but is the Platoon Command Squad filled with vets like the Company Command Squad? I'm guessing "No", but I saw no clarification one way or the other.

While looking through the stuff Middle got for us(thanks btw) I noticed that a Platoon Command Squad can take 4X flamers and a hv-flamer for 5 templates, coupled with a turret hv-flamer a hull hv-flamer and the 5 fire points of a chimera, I'm imagining some truely horrific drive by's!

Centurion.

AlexCage wrote:Is the "5 fire points" on the Chimera bothering anyone else?

WHERE THE HELL ARE THEY?!

If they're supposed to be the lasgun ports... why only 5, when there are 6? And what of the back hatch?

Are all 5 supposed to fire out the hatch? And if so, what of the lasguns?

Is it supposed to represent a 'broadside', in that 2 are firing from the hatch, and you can only fire 3 'lasguns' per side? In which case, won't opponents argue that you're CHANGING your fire points mid game when you go from shooting out the left to shooting out the right?

I know it's a rather minor thing... but it's bugging the ever loving crap out of me.

Personally, I'm using the back hatch for all 5.

I think i can answer this one to your satisfaction.

It was never GWs intention for you to be able to fire all 6 of the hull lasguns. You should have only ever had 3 of the 6 in LOS of a unit (with a couple crazy exceptions.)

So thats 3, plus the old chimera allowed for 2 people to fire out of the back hatch, which ends up making 5. It's not an absolute perfect fit, but it is an inspired rule change. Fire points are covered well in the main rulebook and are easily understood, whereas the hull lasguns were not. It might let you fire one more special weapon than before, but it is universally easy to understand, and a nice little bump in power level.

Centurion wrote:While looking through the stuff Middle got for us(thanks btw) I noticed that a Platoon Command Squad can take 4X flamers and a hv-flamer for 5 templates, coupled with a turret hv-flamer a hull hv-flamer and the 5 fire points of a chimera, I'm imagining some truely horrific drive by's!

Centurion.

well as there are only 4 vets it would be 3x flamers and 1 heavy flamer no?

I've actually been thinking about this squad:

Vet Squad w/ Harker and his Hvy Bolter + 3 Plasma Gun wielding Vets in a Chimera. Want to make it a firebase? Add another HB HW team to the Vet Squad.

Does Harker take up your Vet's squads heavy weapon choice? Or does he only add to the squad... 2 heavy bolters and 3 plasma gun... hmm. Very nice squad.

Nope, he only adds to the squad. Yeah, good fire support.

Yummy... its better than a heavy weapon squad.

When you think Harker is relentless so he can fire his hb on the move.

Hmmm, something just hit me and I don't recall having seen it mentioned.
The IG squad is still a 10-man squad, right? Or is that just an assaumption? Reason I ask is the 2-wound heavy weapon, ie a single man with two-wounds, not two men with 1 wound each.
So is the squad 9 men, one of which has two wounds, or 10 men, still with one having two wounds. Basically, is an IG squad 10 or 11 wounds now?

Edit: Never mind, think I found it. To add a HW, you pull two regular guys from the squad, so 9 models/10 wounds it is, if a HW is in the squad.

quesitons for that nice "middle" chap:

-does the Devil Dog`s weapon have the "melta" rule or an always 1extra dice for ap rule?

-how exactly works the hellhoundweapon (whole template within 12" or small part of the template within 12", miss if you placed it out of 12" or do you messure and then place it?)

-can the lord commissar give orders (if yes 1or2?)?

-no refractorfields for non spez.chars.?

-does the "platoon-command-leader" has a powerfist option?

thx and greetings Badger

DBM: Possibly you could put an AC in that squad as the HW instead of the HB. You would get some light vehicle/MC killing goodness that matches the plasma Str, and only lose one HB shot in the process.
Then again, the range and points don't line up as nicely...

Badger wrote:-no refractorfields for non spez.chars.?

-does the "platoon-command-leader" has a powerfist option?

Middle answered both of these in his summaries. Company Commanders(Officer in Company Command Squad) has a Refractor Field Standard. Platoon Commanders have the same Weapon Options as Company Commanders.

Badger wrote:-does the Devil Dog`s weapon have the "melta" rule or an always 1extra dice for ap rule?

And according to the French summary the melta cannon does, indeed, have the melta rule. I was hoping the extra dice no matter the range, too.

Wehrkind wrote:DBM: Possibly you could put an AC in that squad as the HW instead of the HB. You would get some light vehicle/MC killing goodness that matches the plasma Str, and only lose one HB shot in the process.
Then again, the range and points don't line up as nicely...

That's not a bad thought, actually, particularly if you're mounting them in a Chimera - that way you get Multilaser, Plasma, and AC that can all kill light vehicles.

I like the idea of the Devildog, especially with the MM Hull mount... but my concern is how many guns can they fire when moving? If they're fast can they fire the Meltacannon and MM when moving 6"?

That's my take on it. It'll take some careful planning to get your movement right so you can do it that way.

I don't see any reason why they couldn't, thats what fast vehicles do. What advantage does it have over a vendetta though? Cover I guess?

It's uhh... none. It would cost 15 points more than the Vendy in that Config (Meltacannon + MM), so, yeah, why bother.

I really want to see someone model their Valk with their troops repelling down and out.

Gestalt wrote:I don't see any reason why they couldn't, thats what fast vehicles do. What advantage does it have over a vendetta though? Cover I guess?

A couple reasons, most of which come down to being a cheap bastard:

1) You're a cheap bastard and don't want to buy and convert a Vendetta,
2) You've already got spare Hellhounds that are now going to waste that you might as well convert to a Devil Dog and you're a cheap bastard and don't want to buy and convert a Vendetta,
3) You want to keep with the mechanized/armor company theme...and you're a cheap bastard and don't want to buy and convert a Vendetta.

I'll fully admit that I'm a cheap bastard and don't want to buy and convert Vendettas. I did the math last night and before tax and shipping and bitz for conversion, you're talking $522 for 3 full squadrons of Valks. Or by buying through the Warstore, you're looking at $417.60. Or, if you decide this makes it worth it to join Bit Kingdom's Inner Circle (and I am considering this for this purchase), you're looking at $363.20 ($313.20 for the models + $50 for the Inner Circle membership - and, oh yes, they are still available.)

H.B.M.C. wrote:It's uhh... none. It would cost 15 points more than the Vendy in that Config (Meltacannon + MM), so, yeah, why bother.

So wait...

Seriously... is there any reason, any reason at ALL to take ANYTHING else for AT than 3 Vendettas? At first I was thinking that atleast tanks and infantry get cover saves more often (Since the Valk is so huge and the Vendy won't be moving that fast usually) but that seems a piddling reason to take them over the flying, tank busting power house.

Personally I'm never fielding one because it's A: Clearly not well thought out, rules, model, or fluffwise, and B: I'm sticking to fluffy armies. Min maxing be damned!!

aka_mythos wrote:I really want to see someone model their Valk with their troops repelling down and out.

Totally doing that when/if Plastic STs drop (no pun intended).

Such a cool friggin idea.

I may even paint my Valkyrie black, and my Stormtroopers in Desert Camo... Or is that too much?

I think I would only take 2 Vendettas for normal sized games. The third slot might be RR or sentinels. They are large, flying, and AV12. I dont expect them to have a long lifespan once they are on board so I don't want to put too much points into them and have overkill. Plus I am also a cheap bastard as above.

My take at what seems like a good core unit for the army.

-3 Infantry Squads (150 points)
-Special weapon x3 (15+ points)
I think a good argument can be made for any of them, so I'll leave selection of which type as an exercise for the reader.
-3x Meltabombs on Sergeants (15 points)
-Commissar w/ Meltabombs (40 points)
-1 Vox (5 points)

Total: 225 Points, or a little less than a Marine Squad

Notable Features:
-31 Wounds
-27 Lasguns, 54 shots at long range with FRFSRF, 81 at short range
-3 Special weapons that will be around forever
-Ld9 and Stubborn
-One order affects the whole bunch, get the the objective fast with Run! Shoot stuff with FRFSRF!
-They can shoot up hordes pretty well, they can shoot up tough troops pretty well, 4 meltabombs mean they're a little scary to tanks and even walkers in close combat.
-Scoring, and cover a lot of potential area to claim/contest objectives.

In summary, they're fairly mobile (with Run!), they're incredibly durable, and they a short range threat zone where they can really lay the hurt.

Any thoughts?

AlexCage wrote:Personally I'm never fielding one because it's A: Clearly not well thought out, rules, model, or fluffwise, and B: I'm sticking to fluffy armies. Min maxing be damned!!

Personally I'm not fielding any because I'm happy living in my own little world where there are only two Imperial Guard helicopter equivs - the Valk and the Vult. The Vendy doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned until a model is made.

In the meantime, my ISTs will ride in a sextet of regular Valks, the way the Emperor intended it to be!

A couple reasons, most of which come down to being a cheap bastard:

More reliable way of destroying AR14 might be a reason. Lets see. Vendetta has about a 12% chance to destroy AR14, meltahound has about 25.5% if within 12" (assuming 1" scatter is still over the target -- this stat is prolly debateable).

However for pure capability you are better off with the vet squad in a chimera w/ 3 MG since they have a 47.7% chance, if within melta range, for 10 more points then the meltahound. And of course range and mobility are a big factor in each choice too.

winterman wrote:However for pure capability you are better off with the vet squad in a chimera w/ 3 MG since they have a 47.7% chance, if within melta range, for 10 more points then the meltahound. And of course range and mobility are a big factor in each choice too.

Funny how the more things change, the more they stay the same. What were IG's biggest tank killers in the previous codex? 3x melta Vet Squads. Granted, we can't just drop them like we used to, but you're right - these guys are going to continue to be a staple for the Guard. I think a lot of players (myself included) were really hoping to see a greater selection of effective ways of killing tanks that didn't involve Vet Squads. C'est la vie.

winterman wrote:

A couple reasons, most of which come down to being a cheap bastard:

More reliable way of destroying AR14 might be a reason. Lets see. Vendetta has about a 12% chance to destroy AR14, meltahound has about 25.5% if within 12" (assuming 1" scatter is still over the target -- this stat is prolly debateable).

However for pure capability you are better off with the vet squad in a chimera w/ 3 MG since they have a 47.7% chance, if within melta range, for 10 more points then the meltahound. And of course range and mobility are a big factor in each choice too.

How much better does this get if you have Creed give the vet squad the Bring it Down order (twin-linked!)?

I was already leaning toward three vet squads in Chimeras with a mix of plasma guns and meltas. Now you've got me considering more meltas than plasma guns with these squads. I'm going to have to playtest three or four different lists now.

Granted, that means you have to off-load them from the Chimera for them to receive that order, but yeah, it's not a bad idea at all.

AlexCage wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:It's uhh... none. It would cost 15 points more than the Vendy in that Config (Meltacannon + MM), so, yeah, why bother.

So wait...

Seriously... is there any reason, any reason at ALL to take ANYTHING else for AT than 3 Vendettas? At first I was thinking that atleast tanks and infantry get cover saves more often (Since the Valk is so huge and the Vendy won't be moving that fast usually) but that seems a piddling reason to take them over the flying, tank busting power house.

Personally I'm never fielding one because it's A: Clearly not well thought out, rules, model, or fluffwise, and B: I'm sticking to fluffy armies. Min maxing be damned!!

aka_mythos wrote:I really want to see someone model their Valk with their troops repelling down and out.

Totally doing that when/if Plastic STs drop (no pun intended).

Such a cool friggin idea.

I may even paint my Valkyrie black, and my Stormtroopers in Desert Camo... Or is that too much?

I think a few people might have missed my write-up of the 'great vendetta scare of 2009' in this very thread (page 14 bottom)... Go back afew pages and read please. Vendetta is good, but not the only show in town.

As far as why you'd want to take a devildog over a vendetta. That's easy... armor 14.

vendetta at 1-48" range, 2.25 lascannon hits 0.37 glances and 0.37 pens, each pen has a 33% chance to destroy. 0% on the glance.
1 in 10 rounds of shooting will destroy an armor 14 vehicle.

devildog at 13-24" range, 1 melta hit 0.37 glances, glance destroys 16%
1 in 20 rounds of shooting will destroy an armor 14 vehicle.

devildog at 1-12" range, 1 melta hit 0.13 glance 0.55 pen, each pen has a 50% chance to destroy, each glance has a 16% chance.
1 in 4 rounds of shooting will destroy an armor 14 vehicle.

While the long range shots of the devildog are only 50% as effective, the close range shots are 250% as effective. And seeing as how the armor 14 that I'm really concerned about is a land raider, and will be closing with my gunline rapidly, i can see taking a devildog instead of a vendetta.

If I needed a place to put some scoring units I could certainly see choosing the vendetta, but it is indeed a choice. Not a "no-brainer"


edit: thx ph34r, applied the change.

You also taking into account a hull-mounted MM on the Devil Dog, there, Shep?

*Edit: Nevermind, I figure you must be by looking at the numbers...my bad.

I think you mean at close range the devildog is 250% as effective, or 150% more effective.

Am I the only person who noticed the big Leman Russ with the 72 inch Melta?

Put in the Knight, and it'll get the "melta" rule at 36" and be BS 4. Bye bye Landraiders!

Oh, I could just get some vets anyway, but I'm just thinking...

-A.

Pretty sure the vanquisher cannon always gets the additional d6 pen, not just at half range.

augfubuoy wrote:Am I the only person who noticed the big Leman Russ with the 72 inch Melta?

Put in the Knight, and it'll get the "melta" rule at 36" and be BS 4. Bye bye Landraiders!

For 200 or so points? No. Not worth it. 50% of your shots will be ignored by the cover they're in, and a further 3rd because of your own BS, then you've got to penetrate and roll on the damage chart. Each time you do this the number shrinks.

Well, for the sake of this exercise, let's say they're in the open. You'll hit 66% of the time. With Pask's +1 to pen, you're effectively S9, so you need 6 or better on 2d6 (as it's AP2, no kill on a glance) - ~72%. Then, a 5 or 6 to kill - 33%. That brings it down to 15.7%

Along with the lascannon (S10 with Pask), you're looking at another ~20% chance.

So, between the two weapons, you've got about a 36% chance. Still not as good as the Devil Dog up close or melta vets.

How is the lascannon more effective than the vanquisher cannon? The lascannon has 1 more str but loses d6 pen.

I honestly wonder how GW thought this through as mass numbers breaks the game imo and I will guarentte you this will be the new " nob biker "

For just 1000 points you can have 6 40 man stubbron units with Auto cannons.

Add in that you can also group Vendettas and then place SPecial weapon squads w/ Demo charges in them.


I seriously think we will see venetta special weapon spam.

Vets w/ 3 meltaguns (and a Vox) in a Chimera.

We have to find out if the Twin Link against MC/vehicles only applies to Heavy Weapons. But if it applies to all guns, then this squad is a real killer

You are looking at almost 70% kill rate against AV14

Vendettas look great on paper, but it will be interesting to see if it carries through to game.

AV12 is not the hardest thing to take out in the game (especially with out cover save), but with good placement you might be able to avoid the mass of anti tank fire...

BTW, I saw over at Warseer that Commisars have the EXACT options of who they accompany.

So, in other words, for a Commisar in a PHQ

Bolter, PW, Bolt pistol, Plasma Pistol, POWER FIST

And in a squad

Bolt pistol, plasma pistol, power weapon

So yeah, NON lord PF Commisars DO exist.

ph34r wrote:How is the lascannon more effective than the vanquisher cannon? The lascannon has 1 more str but loses d6 pen.

Doh - that's my bad on the math. Thanks for the catch. Should be only 7% - big difference. Sorry. So, with Pask, you're looking at a total of about 23% chance to kill AV14 in one round.

BoxANT wrote:Vets w/ 3 meltaguns (and a Vox) in a Chimera.

We have to find out if the Twin Link against MC/vehicles only applies to Heavy Weapons. But if it applies to all guns, then this squad is a real killer

You are looking at almost 70% kill rate against AV14

Again, though, if you want to use that Twin-Link Order with the Vets, even if they've got a vox, you still need to disembark them as you can't receive orders while in a Vehicle.

It's the Vanquisher that has the big melta-rule AT gun right?

It's 5 points more than a Russ, and you don't need the commander guy anyway. besides, if you don't target AV 14, it'll be WAY better at killing it. I mean, this is as close as possible to a tank that kills other tanks it has to be pretty good right?

augfubuoy wrote:It's the Vanquisher that has the big melta-rule AT gun right?

It's 5 points more than a Russ, and you don't need the commander guy anyway. besides, if you don't target AV 14, it'll be WAY better at killing it. I mean, this is as close as possible to a tank that kills other tanks it has to be pretty good right?

Yep, it's the Vanquisher. If you don't take the commander, your chance to kill AV14 drops from ~23% to ~18%. And yeah, if you shoot at things that aren't AV14, it gets better. But even if this does mean that it's a tank that can kill other tanks, it doesn't mean that it's good at it. Better than other Leman Russes? Yeah. But better than other things in the list, no.

Hey, I like the idea of the Vanquisher myself. But for those points and BS3... or even more points for BS4 and some potentially useful stuff... well, proxy it a few times and you'll see. Play it in 10 games, bring a notepad along, and track things. Heartbreaking every time you spend all those points and roll a miss. Or their cover save negates your shot.

Scottywan82 wrote:BTW, I saw over at Warseer that Commisars have the EXACT options of who they accompany.

So, in other words, for a Commisar in a PHQ

Bolter, PW, Bolt pistol, Plasma Pistol, POWER FIST

And in a squad

Bolt pistol, plasma pistol, power weapon

So yeah, NON lord PF Commisars DO exist.

Scottywan82 beat me to it, but here's the link to the Warseer page (110): http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188818&page=110

Other points from Mojaco's post: Iron Hand Straken; no FNP, but he does have a plasma pistol. (Edit: not sure how this fits in with the shotgun he reportedly has too).

The squad sergeants also get the same options as commissars in infantry squads: bolter, plasma pistol, power weapon (sorry no PF in the squads).
Having a commissar lord doesn't open up new commissar options.

Scottywan82 wrote:BTW, I saw over at Warseer that Commisars have the EXACT options of who they accompany.

So, in other words, for a Commisar in a PHQ

Bolter, PW, Bolt pistol, Plasma Pistol, POWER FIST

And in a squad

Bolt pistol, plasma pistol, power weapon

So yeah, NON lord PF Commisars DO exist.

This is the best news I've heard all day thank you!

NOOOOOO!!!!!! If Ironhand doesn't have FNP then he's totally not worth 95 extra points(NERD RAGE! ). Heck, he costs more than Creed does and even though he brawls a little better doesn't have the extra radius or orders to give (ie 4). If he doesn't have FNP then I don't think you'll ever see him. Pity since I was considering using him before I found out he was 95 points which is pretty steep.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

augfubuoy wrote:Am I the only person who noticed the big Leman Russ with the 72 inch Melta?

Put in the Knight, and it'll get the "melta" rule at 36" and be BS 4. Bye bye Landraiders!

For 200 or so points? No. Not worth it. 50% of your shots will be ignored by the cover they're in, and a further 3rd because of your own BS, then you've got to penetrate and roll on the damage chart. Each time you do this the number shrinks.

Does Pask not give Crack Shot anymore?

Feth, the reasons to actually buy this codex get smaller and smaller by the day. Right now I'm down to Vendettas, Creed+RR's, and 55 man squads with FNP. Oh yeah, and the drive by shooting Chimeras.

Actually, the Drive By Chimera army would be fun if you used the Genestealer Cult Limos...Genestealer Mafia! W00t!

Death By Monkeys wrote:

ph34r wrote:How is the lascannon more effective than the vanquisher cannon? The lascannon has 1 more str but loses d6 pen.

Doh - that's my bad on the math. Thanks for the catch. Should be only 7% - big difference. Sorry. So, with Pask, you're looking at a total of about 23% chance to kill AV14 in one round.

BoxANT wrote:Vets w/ 3 meltaguns (and a Vox) in a Chimera.

We have to find out if the Twin Link against MC/vehicles only applies to Heavy Weapons. But if it applies to all guns, then this squad is a real killer

You are looking at almost 70% kill rate against AV14

Again, though, if you want to use that Twin-Link Order with the Vets, even if they've got a vox, you still need to disembark them as you can't receive orders while in a Vehicle.

That is true, however, unless you can get to an enemy tank with a 6" move (and be within 6" of the hatch for meltaguns), you will probably be moving 12" and therefore need to disembark to even be able to shoot.

And lets not forget that Vets are a 10man squad instead of 5, so they will be able to take a little bit more fire (although still die just as quickly in assault).


So ALL our Infantry squads can take hidden Power Swords? Wow, that is ..... strange. It would be almost funny to have a 51man squad lead by a Commissar and 5 Sgts all with PWs. Would be very amusing


Hell through a Vox in there, and have Creed give them FC Oh that would be just too much fun

Pity the power weapon has jumped to an absurd 10 points though. *sigh* 5 points was a really good deal in the current Guard Codex. Sure, you didn't use them because 5 points spent on a power weapon was 5 points not spent on Iron Discipline or more guns, but it was a reasonable price.

10 points isn't.

I'm happy to hear that Power Fist Commissars do still exist, maybe not in squads, but at least more than just the Commissar Lord. Commissar Calgar is also very happy to hear this, even though he doesn't use a Power Fist, just his Bolt Pistol of Ultmate Justice (R12 Strength D Assault 2).

I may not like it, but I can see their logic.

"Lets give Infantry Sgts access to PWs... but bump them to 10pts a pop so no one actually takes them."



Well, at least those crazy "CC Guardsmen" commanders can give a little cheer.

BoxANT wrote:I may not like it, but I can see their logic.

"Lets give Infantry Sgts access to PWs... but bump them to 10pts a pop so no one actually takes them."

That's logic is it?

Chances are it's more simplistic than that:

To them Power Weapon = Ignore armour save = Dangerous.

And that's it. The thought process goes no further than that. No accounting for who's using the power weapon, the cost of the models involved, the role of the squad that model is with, how tough or fragile, strong or weak, armour save, initiative nothing. It's just power weapons = Ignore armour save = Dangerous and that's all they think about.

How else do you explain 10 point power weapons a 15 point power fists on WS3 T3 I3 W1 guys...

The same way you explain Ogryns and Lictors.

My marine sergeants pay 15 for power weapons and 25 for fists. Only advantage is ws/str 4, but the weapon itself is 50% more expensive(making my sergeant almost as expensive as your squad). It doesn't seem that bad to me.

Pity the power weapon has jumped to an absurd 10 points though. *sigh* 5 points was a really good deal in the current Guard Codex. Sure, you didn't use them because 5 points spent on a power weapon was 5 points not spent on Iron Discipline or more guns, but it was a reasonable price.

Considering everyone else was paying 3 times as much for the exact same thing I don't think you're in that good of a place to whine about it. The new 10 point cost is still pretty good given the number of attacks the commissar has and its loss of the independent character status.

How else do you explain 10 point power weapons a 15 point power fists on WS3 T3 I3 W1 guys...

Mine are 50% more expensive, you want to trade?

:edit: I mean seriously, boo hoo, you kill one tactical marine, let alone anything of actual value with that fist and you've made your points back.

Except your fist is being guarded by those same marines Shuma. The IG fist would be lucky to even get a chance to roll.

stonefox wrote:Except your fist is being guarded by those same marines Shuma. The IG fist would be lucky to even get a chance to roll.

Not when its in a 40 man squad... Even then, guess what you just lost with that 15 points? Less than I pay for my most basic (non scout) trooper. It's less likely to get to hit and weaker fore sure, which is why it's considerably less points (percentage wise).

ShumaGorath wrote:

stonefox wrote:Except your fist is being guarded by those same marines Shuma. The IG fist would be lucky to even get a chance to roll.

Not when its in a 40 man squad... Even then, guess what you just lost with that 15 points? Less than I pay for my most basic (non scout) trooper. It's less likely to get to hit and weaker fore sure, which is why it's considerably less points (percentage wise).

Can't get a PF in a 40man squad (that isn't a IC).

BoxANT wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

stonefox wrote:Except your fist is being guarded by those same marines Shuma. The IG fist would be lucky to even get a chance to roll.

Not when its in a 40 man squad... Even then, guess what you just lost with that 15 points? Less than I pay for my most basic (non scout) trooper. It's less likely to get to hit and weaker fore sure, which is why it's considerably less points (percentage wise).

Can't get a PF in a 40man squad (that isn't a IC).

Ameobad squads can't have sergeants?

ShumaGorath, i can't beleive you're trying to make this arguement!?!?

oh wait, it's you. i forgot for a second! silly me.

ShumaGorath wrote:My marine sergeants pay 15 for power weapons and 25 for fists. Only advantage is ws/str 4, but the weapon itself is 50% more expensive(making my sergeant almost as expensive as your squad). It doesn't seem that bad to me.

They were, in the last Marine Codex and the Real Chaos Codex, 10 for the PW and 15 for the Fist, and they were priced well. They were priced that way as the model often has less attacks than an IC, hence the reason why IC's paid slightly more (15/25 for the PW/PF compared to 10/15 for the PW/PF on the Unit Character). In comparison, the 5 point PW and 10 point (or was it 15?) PW/PF for Guard made sense.

Only when Codex Bland Angels came out did the price shoot back to 25 points for a Marine Fist and even though, in comparison, the price difference is largley the same, it's the wrong price on the Marine in the first place. Then they go and use that for the benchmark price, and we end up with a choice no one will take.

As for "boo hoo"-ing, the Power Weapon will never make its points back. You know why? Becuase it's too expensive to be bothered with. 10 points nets you 2 Flamers. 2 Grenade Launchers. 1 Meltagun. 2 Heavy Bolters. 1 Autocannon for feth's sake. All of these weapons will have an impact on the game. A power weapon in the hands of a pathetic basic Guardsmen will not.

Guard are a shooting army (obvious statement is obvious), so overcosting their meagre HTH abilities just makes Guard players take more guns.

Guard are a shooting army (obvious statement is obvious), so overcosting their meagre HTH abilities just makes Guard players take more guns.

And undercosting it just gives them an unfair advantage. I'm sure things were nice and cool back when the old codex and the "real" chaos codex were legal. But they aren't any more. If you had a price advantage back then you would have an even bigger one now. A stupidly large one. You don't get to pay a third what I do for a power weapon. You don't have a third the attacks.

As for "boo hoo"-ing, the Power Weapon will never make its points back. You know why? Becuase it's too expensive to be bothered with. 10 points nets you 2 Flamers. 2 Grenade Launchers. 1 Meltagun. 2 Heavy Bolters. 1 Autocannon for feth's sake. All of these weapons will have an impact on the game. A power weapon in the hands of a pathetic basic Guardsmen will not.

Yeah, and why would you take a lascanon weapons team when you can get the vendetta? Why would you get ogryn when you can just get 80 penal legionaires? Your army is a swarmy shooting army with big tanks, taking anything else isn't playing to your overwhelming strength. Being in close combat means you're doing it wrong, just because you do better at something else doesn't mean your combat choices are overcosted. Also i'm not saying the ogryn are good they aren't and the vendetta is slowed. I'm just saying that for your combat choices to be useful it would have to be useful for you to be in combat.

ShumaGorath, i can't beleive you're trying to make this arguement!?!?

oh wait, it's you. i forgot for a second! silly me.

You have the music tastes of a 26 year old mcdonalds cook.

ShumaGorath wrote:And undercosting it just gives them an unfair advantage ... If you had a price advantage back then you would have an even bigger one now. A stupidly large one. You don't get to pay a third what I do for a power weapon. You don't have a third the attacks.

Unfair advantage? Guardsmen having an unfair advantage with 5 point wepaons?

Reality check Shummy - we're talking about Guardsmen, the single worst HTH force in the game ('cept maybe Tau, but who cares about those blue-skinned xenos freaks). Don't have 1/3rd the attacks? Try having 1 less strength - that's a massive difference in a D6 based system. You wound with half your attacks. I get 1/3rd my hits as wounds. You hit me 2/3rds of the time, I only hit you half the time... assuming I get to swing, given that you swing before me.

So, again, reality check Shummy - these are Guardsmen.

Unfair advantage? Guardsmen getting an 'unfair advantage' in assault??? ROLF! Jesus Christ on a pogo stick that's just insane...

Have a few questions.

1. Can Vanquishers shoot battle cannon shells like they can in Armored Company list? If so they wouldn't be so bad.

2. Are Valkyrie, Leman Russ and Artillery Squadrons constrained by the usual squadron rules (have to stay within 4 inches of each other, immoblized = destroyed etc) or do they operate like Zoanthropes?

3. Is the VTOL rumor that Valkyries can move and fire all in the codex?

4. Can you put allied Daemon Hunter Inquisitor + 2 mystics in a Valkyrie?

Unfair advantage? Guardsmen having an unfair advantage with 5 point wepaons?

Yeah, my power fist sergeant costs more than your squad. So yeah, unfair advantage. I'm sorry you feel like your force is unplayably weak all the time and that you want everything to be cheaper all the time but seriously your wrong. You said 25 point sentinels earlier in this thread, you said that the plastmatank was too expensive at 210, you complained that the OLD power weapon for the commissar at 5 points was just "okay". Your bad at assigning things point values.

I guess I don't buy the argument of "well, IG aren't good at HtH, so it doesn't matter how much their power weapons are."

HtH is a reality of 40k, and allowing squads to buy reasonably cheap power weapons allows for some additional punch. I mean, things should be valued at roughly what they're worth, with adjustments if something should be more or less common. Taking into account the combat potential, it seems to me that 10pts is probably a bit high for a weapon that will probably fail to kill anything.

I also don't buy the argument that IG are bad in combat, and simply should deal with it. There's no reason for IG to be bad in combat other than GW never really desiging a guard codex that could take the fight to the enemy. Every codex in the game can stand and shoot to one extent or another, but IG collapse in HtH regardless of what was done. 5pt Power weapons wouldn't change that, but it would help make a 10 man IG Squads charging into cover more effective.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Unfair advantage? Guardsmen having an unfair advantage with 5 point wepaons?

Yeah, my power fist sergeant costs more than your squad. So yeah, unfair advantage. I'm sorry you feel like your force is unplayably weak all the time and that you want everything to be cheaper all the time but seriously your wrong. You said 25 point sentinels earlier in this thread, you said that the plastmatank was too expensive at 210, you complained that the OLD power weapon for the commissar at 5 points was just "okay". Your bad at assigning things point values.

Actually, even at 5pts hardly anybody bought power weapons for their IG characters. Fair Market value is often defined as "what a willing buyer would pay to a willing seller with neither having a compulsion to buy or sell and both having a full appreciation of the facts." If you try selling something at a price, and nobody buys, you're asking too much.

They could make Power weapons free on Officers, and they wouldn't be undercosted.

And stop with the whole "my sergeant costs more than your squad" nonsense. A space marine sgt w/ fist costs roughly 52pts, and nobody is going to field IG without at least a special weapon.

Actually, even at 5pts hardly anybody bought power weapons for their IG characters. Fair Market value is often defined as "what a willing buyer would pay to a willing seller with neither having a compulsion to buy or sell and both having a full appreciation of the facts." If you try selling something at a price, and nobody buys, you're asking too much.

Except not all armies should be good in close combat. It's not in their fluff to "take it to the enemy". They stand and shoot. They are fighting giant robots, fungus monsters, giant sword swinging superhumans, and alien close combat super predators from another galaxy. The entire concept of the army is the gunline.

Even then 5 points is too cheap. A guard squad isn't supposed to stand up to a marine squad, its supposed to die. If that power weapon took one marine with it it payed for itself three times over. For the cost of one power weapon on a piddly tactical squad in the marine codex you could have had three squads with power weapons in the IG codex. Three times as many wounds. Three times as many attacks. One less strength, one less weapons skill.

I'm sorry but one less weapon skill and strength doesn't equate to a three to one advantage in points.



As for why no one took them? It's not because they were too expensive, it's because they were redundant and stupid in the guard army. They are not a close combat army, they get rolled over by anything resembling an assault force. The power weapons could be free and they still wouldn't end up doing much of anything because guard are not a close combat army. They shoot their guns, they don't punch with their hands. Their basic rifle has a better profile then they do. There is no "cost" that will make power weapons seem like an attractive offer as opposed to something that shoots.

So if power weapons were bad, stupid, and redundant before, it makes sense to raise the cost of said bad options? What does that accomplish? The few guard players that took them for whatever reason, likely fluff, get penalized even more, and most guard players continue to not take them. Seems like not an improvement to me.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Actually, even at 5pts hardly anybody bought power weapons for their IG characters. Fair Market value is often defined as "what a willing buyer would pay to a willing seller with neither having a compulsion to buy or sell and both having a full appreciation of the facts." If you try selling something at a price, and nobody buys, you're asking too much.

Except not all armies should be good in close combat. It's not in their fluff to "take it to the enemy". They stand and shoot. They are fighting giant robots, fungus monsters, giant sword swinging superhumans, and alien close combat super predators from another galaxy. The entire concept of the army is the gunline.

Even then 5 points is too cheap. A guard squad isn't supposed to stand up to a marine squad, its supposed to die regardless of the total points involved. If that power weapon took one marine with it it payed for itself three times over. For the cost of one power weapon on a piddly tactical squad in the marine codex you could have had three squads with power weapons in the IG codex. Three times as many wounds. Three times as many attacks. One less strength, one less weapons skill.

I'm sorry but one less weapon skill and strength doesn't equate to a three to one advantage in points.

First off, if IG can't take the fight to the enemy, than we lose 2/3 of our games. Seizing objectives is what 5th edition is about. There is also no reason in the fluff to not have humans that can assault, it's just not been done. The army became a gunline with VPs and the cheap weapons in the BBB, and the concept never really strayed.

I don't like the concept that every time any space marine squad hits any IG squad the IG should die. Are you arguing that power weapons on IG squads actually make the squad good in combat? Are you saying that with cheap power weapons, IG would start bullying MEqs through numbers? I'm not sure what your argument here is.

Ok, so you have a space marine with a power weapon, that will hit a space marine twice on the charger, and wound once. One dead marine. 3 IG sgts charge, 9 swings, 4.5 hits, or 1.5 wounds. So, they do almost as much damage. Of course, the SM sgt is a member of a tactical squad that runs about 185pts (base squad plus PW), while the IG sgts all belong to squads that almost assuredly took at least flamer and autocannon, making them 50pts base plus 10 for the heavy, 5 for the flamer, and 5 for a power weapor, for 70pts each or 210pts total.

Swinging on each other, the IG still drop 1.5 marines but the SM sgt drops 16/9 guardsmen, or roughly 1.5 IG. Now, 9 charging marines kill ~6.7, so only 22 of the IG respond, so 19 basic guys charging gives38 attacks, 19 hits, 6.33 wounds, or 2.11 dead marines. So, if one tactical squad and 3 IG squads charged each other the marines would kill about 8 IG, the IG would kill about 3.6 Marines. If the IG charge the marines, the marines still draw the IG with roughly 4 kills a piece.

What's my point? That in a world where a gunline can't simply sit and shoot, the IG will need to flush squads, and power weapons help a bit with that. Pricing them at five points still make IG pt for pt worse at assult than tactical squads (which are a lousy assault unit as it is), and so increasing the cost will further decrease their ability.

This says nothing about the sheer lunacy of increasing the cost of an option that was hardly ever taken at the lower cost.

I can't believe anyone would make the argument that guard with cheap PF/PW would be an unfair advantage, even at 5 pts for a PF its cost is questionable. Large squads cant take fists, small squads don't get to swing.

I'm sorry but one less weapon skill and strength doesn't equate to a three to one advantage in points.

Is this a troll?
A marine with 1 attack will kill ~.3 guard. A guardsman with 1 attack will kill ~.055 marines. 3:1 marines will cause more wounds, and they strike first, and have grenades, and have better morale. Its like you haven't seen a guard line get hit in CC, squads just go away with nothing done to the attackers. Numbers don't help when you still are dying 5:1.


Back to a usefull discussion.
If we are concerned mainly about AV14, a vanquisher with Pask has better a Destroy/Points ratio than a Vendetta. It also has better armor/cover, though at lower target AV its not as good.
Havent done the math on the HH variants yet.

Edit: Marines dont have ccw.

It's also a bullet magnet. Do you think people are going to let the reach-out-and-touch-you Special Character tank stay alive for more than 3 turns?

Are you even listening to yourself talking, or are you just ranting? I'm actually kind of curious, because I find your posts to be... well, a little hard to follow logically.

Clearly I'm a 9000 foot tall rock monster with opinions that are alien to mankind.

First off, if IG can't take the fight to the enemy, than we lose 2/3 of our games. Seizing objectives is what 5th edition is about. There is also no reason in the fluff to not have humans that can assault, it's just not been done. The army became a gunline with VPs and the cheap weapons in the BBB, and the concept never really strayed.

Where exactly is the fluff that supports the idea of a group of imperial guardsman charging out of their trenches to go teach those space marines a good lesson? Or those tyranids? Orks? I'm sorry but all the fluff is pretty consistent in "holding the line" not "Waaaagh". Typically most fluff entries state that when the enemy reaches the lines the lines either fall back, cut them apart with massed close range firepower, or all the guardsman die. They don't throw down their guns and start kicking 700 pound marine ass. Most other armies use imperial guardsman like easily popped flesh balloons in their fluff to make themselves seem strong.

There is no fluff that really supports an assault oriented guard army. As for taking objectives, its called shooting the enemy off of them. You have a giant tank with a flamethrower turret. You have the leman russ demolisher, the things named after its close range supergun. You don't displace the enemy by getting in their grill you displace them by blowing their grill up.

I don't like the concept that every time any space marine squad hits any IG squad the IG should die. Are you arguing that power weapons on IG squads actually make the squad good in combat? Are you saying that with cheap power weapons, IG would start bullying MEqs through numbers? I'm not sure what your argument here is.

I'm saying that the cost of the power weapons themselves are what is being discussed here. The squads will fold and die, but those close combat upgrades will have done their jobs magnificently and payed for themselves well.

What's my point? That in a world where a gunline can't simply sit and shoot, the IG will need to flush squads, and power weapons help a bit with that. Pricing them at five points still make IG pt for pt worse at assult than tactical squads (which are a lousy assault unit as it is), and so increasing the cost will further decrease their ability.

Unfortunately with all your mathammer you just basically said what I had been saying. That the guards power weapons were too cheap and that they were statistically killing more points than the same upgrade in another army. But then thats the crux of the problem. The squad would still die. It would still fold over like a wet paper bag and those few dead wouldn't make up for the cost of the squad. Those weapons could be free and they still wouldn't make the squads cost effective in close combat against something so basic as a tactical squad. This is where the concepts of game balance come into play though. Just because the squad itself is going to fold doesn't mean that the power weapon is too expensive. Just because people don't take it doesn't mean its point value is wrong. You could pay for melta bombs on devastator marines and I bet no matter how much they costed people wouldn't buy them. It's simply not a useful upgrade no matter the points cost. It just doesn't do enough to warrant not spending those points elsewhere.

H.B.M.C. wrote:It's also a bullet magnet. Do you think people are going to let the reach-out-and-touch-you Special Character tank stay alive for more than 3 turns?

I doubt the vendettas are going to last long either in fairness. Though really I think the fast/skimming/scouting/flyer base aspects of the vendetta give it better chances then a pasqusher at killing targets. Side armor is hard to protect against something like that.

Gestalt wrote:I can't believe anyone would make the argument that guard with cheap PF/PW would be an unfair advantage, even at 5 pts for a PF its cost is questionable. Large squads cant take fists, small squads don't get to swing.

I'm sorry but one less weapon skill and strength doesn't equate to a three to one advantage in points.

Is this a troll?
A marine with 1 attack will kill ~.3 guard. A guardsman with 1 attack will kill ~.055 marines. 3:1 marines will cause more wounds, and they strike first, and have grenades, and have bolt pistols/ccw, and have better morale. Its like you haven't seen a guard line get hit in CC, squads just go away with nothing done to the attackers. Numbers don't help when you still are dying 5:1.


Back to a usefull discussion.
If we are concerned mainly about AV14, a vanquisher with Pask has better a Destroy/Points ratio than a Vendetta. It also has better armor/cover, though at lower target AV its not as good.
Havent done the math on the HH variants yet.

Tactical marines don't have a CCW and a pistol unless you mean CSM.

H.B.M.C. wrote:It's also a bullet magnet. Do you think people are going to let the reach-out-and-touch-you Special Character tank stay alive for more than 3 turns?

I think vendettas are a bigger fire magnet, its huge, harder to hide, and less armor. It costs twice as much, but the vanq is probably at least twice as hard to kill. I wouldn't say its better than the vendettas, but its a viable option.

Avariel wrote:Have a few questions.

1. Can Vanquishers shoot battle cannon shells like they can in Armored Company list? If so they wouldn't be so bad.

From what we know so far, no, they cannot have battle cannon shells. Sucks, doesn't it?

Avariel wrote:2. Are Valkyrie, Leman Russ and Artillery Squadrons constrained by the usual squadron rules (have to stay within 4 inches of each other, immoblized = destroyed etc) or do they operate like Zoanthropes?

Again, as far as we know, they have to abide by standard vehicle squadron rules - 4 inches and immobilized=destroyed. And we don't even get the option of track guards to keep from getting immobilized results/

Avariel wrote:3. Is the VTOL rumor that Valkyries can move and fire all in the codex?

Um. I'm not sure what the VTOL rumor is, but Valks are fast skimmers, so they can move 6" and still fire all their weapons. Move 12" and fire 1.

Avariel wrote:4. Can you put allied Daemon Hunter Inquisitor + 2 mystics in a Valkyrie?

You can, although I'm not sure about the utility of that. I mean, typically, the units you want to protect from deep-strikers are folks sitting in the back field that aren't moving much anyway. If you want to protect them with an Inquis+Mystics, you're probably just as well off sticking them in a Rhino or Chimera (or Land Raider if you really want to make sure they survive). But, yes, if you really want to, there's nothing to say you can't. Valks can transport anything except Ogryns....hey, anything except Ogryns....I wonder if there's a reason that you'd want to stick GKs in a Valk....hmmmm....

Neconilis wrote:

Gestalt wrote:I can't believe anyone would make the argument that guard with cheap PF/PW would be an unfair advantage, even at 5 pts for a PF its cost is questionable. Large squads cant take fists, small squads don't get to swing.

I'm sorry but one less weapon skill and strength doesn't equate to a three to one advantage in points.

Is this a troll?
A marine with 1 attack will kill ~.3 guard. A guardsman with 1 attack will kill ~.055 marines. 3:1 marines will cause more wounds, and they strike first, and have grenades, and have bolt pistols/ccw, and have better morale. Its like you haven't seen a guard line get hit in CC, squads just go away with nothing done to the attackers. Numbers don't help when you still are dying 5:1.


Back to a usefull discussion.
If we are concerned mainly about AV14, a vanquisher with Pask has better a Destroy/Points ratio than a Vendetta. It also has better armor/cover, though at lower target AV its not as good.
Havent done the math on the HH variants yet.

Tactical marines don't have a CCW and a pistol unless you mean CSM.

I'm also talking about the sergeants, not the squads. The power weapon wouldn't make the guard squad kill their points in marines if it gave you 10 extra points to spend every time you took one (i'm talking better than free, negative points.) My whole point is that even though the guard squad itself is a flesh filled wet paper bag that sword statistically is killing more points of enemies on average than power weapons in the chaos/marine codexes. It's doing the job too well even though everyone around it is dying.

Gestalt wrote:I think vendettas are a bigger fire magnet, its huge, harder to hide, and less armor. It costs twice as much, but the vanq is probably at least twice as hard to kill. I wouldn't say its better than the vendettas, but its a viable option.

I don't know that I would call it that when you've got a Chimera full of vets w/ meltas or Devil Dogs that are cheaper and more effective. I mean, if you're saying that it can kill tanks, then yes, it's a viable option. But you can kill tanks will Leman Russ Battle Tanks or Executioners, too. They're less effective, but you could call them viable if you want to.

ShumaGorath wrote:
Where exactly is the fluff that supports the idea of a group of imperial guardsman charging out of their trenches to go teach those space marines a good lesson? Or those tyranids? Orks? I'm sorry but all the fluff is pretty consistent in "holding the line" not "Waaaagh". Typically most fluff entries state that when the enemy reaches the lines the lines either fall back, cut them apart with massed close range firepower, or all the guardsman die. They don't throw down their guns and start kicking 700 pound marine ass. Most other armies use imperial guardsman like easily popped flesh balloons in their fluff to make themselves seem strong.

There is no fluff that really supports an assault oriented guard army.

5th edition rulebook, page 138. "the Imperial guard attacks in endless waves, until victory is won." Also: "the onslaught of the Imperial Guard is akin to a sledgehammer, cumbersome but unstoppable." No army can exist totally defensively. There is no rational reason for an army to not be able to take ground.

I'm saying that the cost of the power weapons themselves are what is being discussed here. The squads will fold and die, but those close combat upgrades will have done their jobs magnificently and payed for themselves well.

Maybe. Three of them, swinging on the charge, kill 1.5 marines, and than the IG still lose to fewer points of Marines.

Unfortunately with all your mathammer you just basically said what I had been saying. That the guards power weapons were too cheap and that they were statistically killing more points than the same upgrade in another army. But then thats the crux of the problem. The squad would still die. It would still fold over like a wet paper bag and those few dead wouldn't make up for the cost of the squad. Those weapons could be free and they still wouldn't make the squads cost effective in close combat against something so basic as a tactical squad. This is where the concepts of game balance come into play though. Just because the squad itself is going to fold doesn't mean that the power weapon is too expensive. Just because people don't take it doesn't mean its point value is wrong. You could pay for melta bombs on devastator marines and I bet no matter how much they costed people wouldn't buy them. It's simply not a useful upgrade no matter the points cost. It just doesn't do enough to warrant not spending those points elsewhere.

But your argument is essentially that IG squads shouldn't just be bad in combat, but they should be as bad as possible? IG squads should be able to buck up for combat, particularly since in the fluff they fight other things far more often than marines. Power weapons would be useful against eldar, tau, and other IG. Why deny them that because you seem to think that IG should have no combat ability at all?

ShumaGorath wrote:

Neconilis wrote:

Gestalt wrote:I can't believe anyone would make the argument that guard with cheap PF/PW would be an unfair advantage, even at 5 pts for a PF its cost is questionable. Large squads cant take fists, small squads don't get to swing.

I'm sorry but one less weapon skill and strength doesn't equate to a three to one advantage in points.

Is this a troll?
A marine with 1 attack will kill ~.3 guard. A guardsman with 1 attack will kill ~.055 marines. 3:1 marines will cause more wounds, and they strike first, and have grenades, and have bolt pistols/ccw, and have better morale. Its like you haven't seen a guard line get hit in CC, squads just go away with nothing done to the attackers. Numbers don't help when you still are dying 5:1.


Back to a usefull discussion.
If we are concerned mainly about AV14, a vanquisher with Pask has better a Destroy/Points ratio than a Vendetta. It also has better armor/cover, though at lower target AV its not as good.
Havent done the math on the HH variants yet.

Tactical marines don't have a CCW and a pistol unless you mean CSM.

I'm also talking about the sergeants, not the squads. The power weapon wouldn't make the guard squad kill their points in marines if it gave you 10 extra points to spend every time you took one (i'm talking better than free, negative points.) My whole point is that even though the guard squad itself is a flesh filled wet paper bag that sword statistically is killing more points of enemies on average than power weapons in the chaos/marine codexes. It's doing the job too well even though everyone around it is dying.

Oh, I understand your points Shuma and that wasn't directed at you either, but Gestalt, he seemed to be thinking normal tac squads got CCW and pistols. Also, for whatever it's worth, I happen to agree with you for the most part. Though I will say that even though H.B.M.C. tends to want point costs cheaper, he feels that way about many prices in many armies, and I think a lot of the time that isn't apparent when he says this is or that is overpriced because in his mind a reduction here would also go along with another one and another somewhere else as well. It's something to think about at least. Of course that being the case if everything is 'overcosted' in the same manner it should work out just as well in the end.

Real quick what do camo nets and vox's do?

Well, the reason to make things cheaper is to make them used more often, or make it easier to justify taking. For IG power weapons, making them cheap would expand the options of the IG: it would make it possible to assault a little more, small beat up HtH squads might suffer if they charge in, etc.

A unit that does something well (like shooting) will only pay a small amount to become sort of better at something else (like assault).

The very nature of IG, in which they're assault is weak and generally avoided, means that making power weapons expensive eliminates any possible reason to take them. Keeping them cheap keeps them on the table.

I, like HBMC, like options. An option that is overly expensive isn't really an option, it's a possiblity. And since every army in the game, including Orks and Khorne heavy CSM, can now build brutal shooting based builds, I simply don't see any reason to condemn IG to HtH futility. It doesn't make sense in the fluff, and it doesn't make sense for game balance.

HBMC, count yourself lucky they didn't up the cost to PW15, PF25. I'd allready braced myself for it..

I think it's a case of they don't want to invalidate any models, but don't want to see power weapons in competitive lists either.

Are Power Weapons in regular infantry squads confirmed?

If so, an Amoeba'd up squad of 50 with 5 power weapons and a commissar with powerweapon costs 345 points. 24 power weapon attacks on the charge. Loses 4 guys and kills.. 4 marines. Plus 4 from the rest of the S3 attacks if no casualties have been taken. Hey, cheaper than ogryns!

Shep wrote:
I think i can answer this one to your satisfaction.

It was never GWs intention for you to be able to fire all 6 of the hull lasguns. You should have only ever had 3 of the 6 in LOS of a unit (with a couple crazy exceptions.)

So thats 3, plus the old chimera allowed for 2 people to fire out of the back hatch, which ends up making 5. It's not an absolute perfect fit, but it is an inspired rule change. Fire points are covered well in the main rulebook and are easily understood, whereas the hull lasguns were not. It might let you fire one more special weapon than before, but it is universally easy to understand, and a nice little bump in power level.

Actually, isn't the Chimera a 2nd edition model? In 2nd edition, facing mattered and squads could split fire if their arcs didn't face the same targets. So 3 could fire left and 3 could fire right back then.

For the record I edited my post about the ccw, and they didnt figure into any of the math so it doesn't change any of the conclusions.

I'm also talking about the sergeants, not the squads.

No, this is a horrible way to balance units. If the sergeant with a PW was 1 point, and it killed a 15 point marine, but you had to take 50 points of guard to take the sergeant, it does not mean the IG are getting a 15:1 return on PW.

Is it just me or does anyone think that the leman russ needs a new model and it needs to be bigger? For a main battle tank, something along the line of an abrams or tiger it's awefully small. I'm thinking something closer to landraider size.

ShumaGorath wrote:

BoxANT wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

stonefox wrote:Except your fist is being guarded by those same marines Shuma. The IG fist would be lucky to even get a chance to roll.

Not when its in a 40 man squad... Even then, guess what you just lost with that 15 points? Less than I pay for my most basic (non scout) trooper. It's less likely to get to hit and weaker fore sure, which is why it's considerably less points (percentage wise).

Can't get a PF in a 40man squad (that isn't a IC).

Ameobad squads can't have sergeants?

Sgts can't take PF