Had enough of the rumours yet? Who wants some guard facts? I had chance to flick through the new dex so thought I would shed some light on a few things for you all. I don't want to spoil anything for anyone because the new book is uber! But i know you all want to know and I know you all like drooling ( this ones especially for our overseas dakka lovers, I've heard about the lack of black boxes heading your way. )

The french summary is correct. Everything on there is in the book. Plus a few more things are in there and a few things didn't translate too well.



The big one for me is heavy/special weapon squads are now added to your platoons not HQ. Means scoring heavys can sit on an objective.

Vets are troops. About time. Can take 3 options for different roles. Grenadiers / sentries / can't remember the other one. Bastonne is a cadian upgrade, likes shouting orders. Gunnery sergeant Harker is a Catachan devil upgrade, he loves dishing out 'payback'

Stormtroopers have the old school 'Lancashire hot pot' lasguns. Hellguns are not AP3 ! Hot shot lasguns are AP3 ( you can tell Robin cares ) Die marines Die. Get to choose a mini mission at deployment: orbital insertion / can't quite remember one, could be scout but don't hold me to it / infiltrate and they first round of shooting pins.

Leman Russ is one entry. Different points for different turrets / chassis. Now a vehicle squadron so immobilised makes me cry but hey, stunned = shaken. 1-3 of any variant in a squadron in any mix. All patterns can have pc/mm sponsons. Lumbering behemoth is confirmed: Turret weapon in addition to your normal allowance ( even if it is ordnance )

Primaris psyker is nails! does a shooting attack or nightshroud ( Just as reds8n says: enemy unit takes a Ld test to shoot at IG, EVEN ENEMY TANKS!!! but with ld10 )

Psyker battle squad is tasty. I can see the maxed out squad being used in every game if they are taken, more psykers = more psychic filth coming your way. The french Mentor is Overseer this side of the Chanel. Now is it just me or does that change his job title? He doesn't help as a Mentor should them he whacks them with a big stick if they get a little too daemony for his liking, as an Overseer should.

Valkries 1-3 as a fast attack, Vultures ( now pronounced Vendetta ) 1-3 as a fast attack. The rumoured throwing guardsmen out the back of a Valk while it is moving is true, just watch out for any branches on the way down. Transport capacity is the same as a Chimera. If anyone cares - the valk base is the same one as that wierd wingaling dragon from the lord of the rings ( check out his majesty ).

Speaking of Chimeras, 5 five fire points now. Do not have to be lasguns out the side anymore. Sounds like Hotshot drive bys to me. And from what i can remember everybody gets chimeras, exept ratlings ( where's the love? )

Marines are the elite so they split into combat squads. Guard platoons huddle together for warmth as rumoured. Can you count to 50?

The orders system is a beautiful, beautiful thing. Let me be the first to thank Robin Cruddance. If I ever see you, I owe you a strong one.

The best named rule in the book is called: 'Listen up, maggots!' Shouted by one of Cadias finest double act. ( I bet you can't guess which one? I'll give you a hint, it's not the one chewing a Bee. )

And saving the best until last: Penal legion. We've all seen the french stats. Are they a meatshield ? far from it. Basic grunt stats say nothing exciting but when deployed you roll to see what kind of criminals they are / what they have been up to recentley: Black market/tinkered lasguns OR on crack - fleet, move through cover and furious charge OR hmmm I'm not sure how to break it to you gently so i'll just say that if you were a convict and some guy said " Hey if you go and use your rending attacks on that Carnifex the Emperor will love you again " you'd take him up on that offer wouldn't you.

Enjoy.

Trust me there's even more than that in the book. Get down to your local GW on the double troopers and see for yourselves!

The IG Codex preview is up on their site...

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?community=&catId=&categoryId=&pIndex=0&aId=13200003&start=1

Thanks for the info (even if most of it was known), but i am glad to see some passion

1. price on av12 sentinels, weapons?
2. price on commissars
3. can platoon command squads merge with infantry squads?
4. do IG officers have the "leadership" ability, and if not, how much to voxes cost?
5. Ogyrns, 40 points?
6. Sniper rifles, they 5 or 10 points, and can they be taken in infantry squads as a SW?
7. How many points for Creed/Kell? And do they give any other rules to help mission/1st turn?
8. So wait, Hellguns are not ap3, but Stormies have Hot Shot lasguns instead? So, what are hellguns, just S3 ap5? And does Creed have TL Hellgun pistol or Hot Shot laspistol? You have me rather confused here... lol

I don't mind giving out some info, but if you want points you're gonna have to get the dex.

1. Light sentinels have multilaser / heavy flamer / posibly auto cannon ( can't quite remember ). Heavy sentinels get the same as light plus lascannon / missile / heavy plasma

3. Platoon command stays independant from the merged platoon.

4. I didn't notice the leadership rule. I'm not saying it's not in ther but it pidn't punch me in the face while i was looking.

6. Infantry squads may take sniper rifles as a sw.

7. Especially since I play cadians I really should have looked to see if the get the first turn was still in there but i was too busy laughing my ass off at the listen up , maggots !

8. Yeah, hellguns are no more. they disappeared as quickly as they were made up. Stormtroopers now carry, as they always have and always should, hot shot lasguns.

Thanks for the clarifications

Do infantry squads come with voxes, or are they upgrades? If we lost Leadership, then voxes will be all but mandatory :(

Oh well, huge squads with FNP would of been nice, but i guess we will leave that option for more "green" armies.


I am looking forward to Penal Legion squads, if they really the same cost as an infantry squad, i think it will be fun to field a couple units of them No matter which ability they get, i am sure i can find a way to make them work in any game.

Hmmm, infantry squads with a 5pt Sniper Rifle and a 5pt Mortar... hmmm... this is madness.

Np, happy to help.

Again I really should have looked at voxes. With my army I just huddle around the company standard - to me a re roll is better than a better stat. I do have a bad feeling though that without leadership you're going to need them whether you pay for them or not. And hey, 5pts isn't so bad.

Penal legions do cost more than infantry squads, especially since they got cheaper. Think a little more than a veteran squad without sw / hw and you won't be too far off.

Well since infantry squads get a free Vet Sgt (ld8), not having Leadership will not hurt them too much.

However, HW/SW squads will suffer :(


Hmmm Penal Squads running over 80 points, not as good, but perhaps still usable.



Get a look at Conscripts? Would a 30man squad of conscripts run you more than 20 infantry? And can we give Conscripts a Commissar?

middle wrote:Np, happy to help.

Again I really should have looked at voxes. With my army I just huddle around the company standard - to me a re roll is better than a better stat. I do have a bad feeling though that without leadership you're going to need them whether you pay for them or not. And hey, 5pts isn't so bad.

Penal legions do cost more than infantry squads, especially since they got cheaper. Think a little more than a veteran squad without sw / hw and you won't be too far off.

I share BoxAnts concern about Voxes. It might be a small problem if they don`t come as integral equipment and we actually have to pay for them. 5pts is still 5pts, it all ads up. Especially if you have alot of squads to equip if your Regiment is infantry heavy ( like my Paratrooper regiment ).

Could you clarify:
Commissars are indeed 35 points and cannot take power fists?
Do commissar lords give you any special organization rules?
Approx how much is creed now? IG squad cost? Tank cost? Can you take creed without his standard bearer?
Anything about tech priests?
Does the rapid fire order only work on lasguns?

Conscripts haven't changed in points or stats. I know for sure that an Infantry squad can take a commissar for a little less than they are currently, but i'm not sure about commissars in conscript squads.

Conscripts btw are 20 - 50 same as now and add onto a platoon giving you a selection like this for a troops choice: Platoon command + 2-5 infantry squads + 0-5 hw squads +0-2 sw squads +0-1 conscript squad. Giving you a whopping 147 troopers for a single troops choice. I dare you to max out your six slots with just shy of 900 shiny bayonets.

Wow, they really don't cap the total number of squads?

Oh, and some conflicting reports on rough riders are coming in. Did you happen to notice if the lance counted as a power weapon?

I also read some of the BoLS rumors about Chenkov. Apparently as an order, he can take his conscripts out of the game and have them come back in at full strength on the next turn. I hope to see some clarification or validation of this.

I predicted that Stormtroopers would get a price raise and I guess they cost 16pts each now. But still, AP3 weapons are a fair deal.

middle wrote:If anyone cares - the valk base is the same one as that wierd wingaling dragon from the lord of the rings ( check out his majesty ).

Best reference I've read today.

ph34r: Your Commissars are bang on the points cost, I still rate them as over pointed for what they do. I'm afraid it is true about the power fists.

Nothing in the book changes the organization, leave that the the marines with their flexibility and planning. Everything stays where it is on the force org. Commisar lord is as far as I saw one of the only things that comes close to leadership. Radius around him and you aint gonna run. Commissar lord is an IC too, normal ones are not.

Creed is always with kell.

First rank fire! second rank, fire! is only for lasguns. However the HQ orders for twin linked or reroll to wound MC / +1 vs tanks affects all guns.

Tech priests are pretty much the same. No force org slot is nice And the servitors have the mindlock like marines. Suggests they can deploy without the tech priest but may be stupid.

Rough riders: I can't say i checked out their points cost but rest assured, they have not changed one bit. Lances are the same as they are now.

True about Chenkov. Al'Rahem and Chenkov are platoon command upgrades. It's quite pricey but yeah think conscripts with without number but you can take them off when they're below a useful number for a full squad if Chenkov is their platoon commander. Dead good, slightly expensive and only one conscript squad can do it.

Now, does that mean that if you have 4 conscripts left and do said order, you'll get 50 conscripts next turn. Assuming you took 50 to begin with.

It certainly does, you send them packing or bomb them to hell. Either way next turn you get what ever you bought originally ( weapons and all ).

middle wrote:ph34r: Your Commissars are bang on the points cost, I still rate them as over pointed for what they do. I'm afraid it is true about the power fists.

Can you tell us what squads can take a Commissar?

middle wrote:Rough riders: I can't say i checked out their points cost but rest assured, they have not changed one bit. Lances are the same as they are now.

So +2 Strength, +2 Initiative and Power weapon? It's just that I've heard rumors of them with just about any two of those, but not the trifecta.

Infantry squads definitely can have commissars. Didn't get much time so couldn't be sure which other squads can have them, although i'd be worried if HQ / platoon command couldn't have them.

I heard that conscripts are lasgun only guys now.

I can't wait for the banewolf.

I don't field conscripts so i wasn't too keen on looking them up in detail so I can not confirm that they still have hw / sw, BUT the Chenkov rule makes a note that they come back with whatever you bought for them so they still get something.

I'm going to have to leave it there for tonight folks, I'll be happy to look over any questions / worries in the morning. Leave them with me and i'll get back to you.

Night y'all

I hope conscripts could still take flamers, the rest is gravy.

middle wrote:First rank fire! second rank, fire! is only for lasguns. However the HQ orders for twin linked or reroll to wound MC / +1 vs tanks affects all guns.

So just to make it crystal clear for everybody, "First rank fire! Second rank fire!" does or does not apply to Storm Troopers' "Hot shot lasguns"?

Thanks!

middle wrote:ph34r:
However the HQ orders for twin linked or reroll to wound MC / +1 vs tanks affects all guns.

are you confirming its twin linked PLUS a re-roll to wound/ +1 armor pen? if so 3 LC AT squads would be mini broadsides....

1.Can you give a ballpark cost of Creed and his bodyguard? Do they replace an officer in a CHQ or separate?
2. Can we have 2x CHQ?
3. Can we fire 5x special or heavy weapons out of a chimera now?
4. Is the Heavy Weapon Squad 3 teams or 3 teams and 4 guardsmen? Can they take a vox?
5. Are Twinlink and +1 armor pen separate orders? Who can give each?
6. Double check we dont get leadership bubbles or reroll from standard.
Thanks

1. What are Commissar Lords like? Do they effect orders, at all?
2. What are Priests like? Do they take up an HQ choice?
3. What is Commissar Yarrick like? What does his Wargear do?
4. What is Colonel Stracken like?
5. Can Vendettas transport people?
6. Can any squad receive orders? If not, which squads can't?
7. Does FRFSRF apply to Hot Shot Lasguns, or just normal Lasguns?
8. Do Hunting Lances still count as Power Weapons that provide +2 Strength, +2 Initiative on the charge?

Thanks, middle!

Thank you middle. Thank you very much.

The rumors I've heard so far is that in order to benefit from the orders rule, the order had to come down the chain of command. Company Command to platoon command to squad?
Does this mean that single squad troop and elite choices are left out or is this why we've heard rumors about some squad leaders being able to issue orders(rumored storms and/or vets)?
If so, do the vets, the storms, or both have this ability to make use of the orders system?

Next, is does the primaris psyker and choir get access to a chimera/valkerie?

Does the fleet officer do anything other than affect opponent reservs rolls?



Man, I'm loving the 5 firepoint and no longer only lasgun change.

Even though commissars are still over priced, I think 1 per platoon will be mandatory. If you merge your infantry squads, they *need* a commissar to prevent being swept.

If it is true, and RR actually still have their normal Lances (ignore armor, 5S 5I) they thankfully IG still has a cost effective counter-charge unit!

Man, i really hope voxes come for free!

Erm - I think Middle & I must have been reading different books.
Hotshot lasgun is a hellgun in my mind & is AP3
A Vandetta is not a Vulture - Vendetta can still carry troops while a Vulture is an out & out gunship.
Creed & Kell have different entries & therefore can be separate.
The only thing that can't get in a Valk are Ogryn - boo, no Ogryn skybourne :(.
Any weapon can fire out of a firepoint but I can't see a way of getting 5 special weapons in one squad - Chimera's are dedicated transports.
Heavy weapon & Special weapon squads are as before in number & make-up - ie 3 weapons shared between 6 guys.
There are 6 types of order. High command & some special character upgrade characters can issue 3 while junior officers get the other 3. I think High command can do the junior ones too.
Command squads have command radii - 12" for high & 6" for junior. I think commands can be relayed via a vox too.
Priests are as before where the don't take up an HQ slot (& you can have up to 5)
also you can get heavy flamers in command squads.

@ Khornatedemon - 3 different orders with 3 different abilities

@ Gestalt - if memory serves C is 80, K is 75

caveat - I am 35 and I don't always remember things as i should but am pretty confident about the above.

bubber wrote:Erm - I think Middle & I must have been reading different books.
Hotshot lasgun is a hellgun in my mind & is AP3
A Vandetta is not a Vulture - Vendetta can still carry troops while a Vulture is an out & out gunship.
Creed & Kell have different entries & therefore can be separate.
The only thing that can't get in a Valk are Ogryn - boo, no Ogryn skybourne :(.
Any weapon can fire out of a firepoint but I can't see a way of getting 5 special weapons in one squad - Chimera's are dedicated transports.
Heavy weapon & Special weapon squads are as before in number & make-up - ie 3 weapons shared between 6 guys.
There are 6 types of order. High command & some special character upgrade characters can issue 3 while junior officers get the other 3. I think High command can do the junior ones too.
Command squads have command radii - 12" for high & 6" for junior. I think commands can be relayed via a vox too.
Priests are as before where the don't take up an HQ slot (& you can have up to 5)
also you can get heavy flamers in command squads.

@ Khornatedemon - 3 different orders with 3 different abilities

@ Gestalt - if memory serves C is 80, K is 75

caveat - I am 35 and I don't always remember things as i should but am pretty confident about the above.

middle was just being... erm... "flowery" with how he described things. Did *you* see it written in the Codex as "Hellgun" or "Hot shot lasgun"?

I still just want to know if a normal troop squad can take two assault weapons instead of one assault and one heavy. This was rumored a long time ago, and I still haven't seen a definite answer.

So can they?

to be honest - looked at the stat line not the name but I can't see GW changing it for the sake of confusing people.
I can remember a passage of text mentioning that some guardsmen use hotshot packs but I believe that this was in reference to sniper riffles (ie like Larkin & the other Ghost snipers use).

middle wrote:Tech priests are pretty much the same. No force org slot is nice And the servitors have the mindlock like marines. Suggests they can deploy without the tech priest but may be stupid.

I may be the only person that really cares but does this mean that the Enginseer is no longer an Elite FOC choice. I must have missed that rumor. I also do not recall much of any talk about servitors other than someone said that gun servitors are no longer BS4 and the plasma cannon is no longer an option. However, I did not see any other source to confirm or deny this.

I'm probably going to use an Enginseer with three technical servitors in spite of the cons: 2 KP, high cost, little to no combat capability. I like the figs I have and I'm itching to paint a Chimera in full Mars regalia. But I'm hoping that the new codex either reduces the point cost or makes the unit only 1 KP.

just remembered - any russ can now take plasma canon sponsons.

So the UK is seeing their preview codices? Any idea when the US wil be seeing them, fellas?

does the valkyrie have to deploy/stay in a squadron or is it just bought for the same FOC slot (1-3) and then can move independantly?

can't remember but troops can HALO but take difficult terrain tests when they land!

bubber wrote:can't remember but troops can HALO but take difficult terrain tests when they land!

Actually, normal Deep Strike would be more akin to a HALO(High Altitude Low Opening) drop, the Valkyrie rule would be more akin to a helicopter combat drop under fire.

So am I going to have to change my username to make it ironic again?

bubber wrote:Erm - I think Middle & I must have been reading different books.
Hotshot lasgun is a hellgun in my mind & is AP3
A Vandetta is not a Vulture - Vendetta can still carry troops while a Vulture is an out & out gunship.
Creed & Kell have different entries & therefore can be separate.
The only thing that can't get in a Valk are Ogryn - boo, no Ogryn skybourne :(.
Any weapon can fire out of a firepoint but I can't see a way of getting 5 special weapons in one squad - Chimera's are dedicated transports.
Heavy weapon & Special weapon squads are as before in number & make-up - ie 3 weapons shared between 6 guys.
There are 6 types of order. High command & some special character upgrade characters can issue 3 while junior officers get the other 3. I think High command can do the junior ones too.
Command squads have command radii - 12" for high & 6" for junior. I think commands can be relayed via a vox too.
Priests are as before where the don't take up an HQ slot (& you can have up to 5)
also you can get heavy flamers in command squads.

@ Khornatedemon - 3 different orders with 3 different abilities

@ Gestalt - if memory serves C is 80, K is 75

caveat - I am 35 and I don't always remember things as i should but am pretty confident about the above.

A lot of this is good news, though it worries me that it is different than what other people who said they saw the codex have said.
Also if Creed is 80 and can give 4 orders thats very nice.

I wonder if this will make Creed the IG's Eldrad. 4 orders, including a rumored order that gives Furious Charge. He doesn't cost terribly much more than a company commander but does the same job better.

Your probably add him to the CHQ causing it to cost 130 to start with him replacing the current officer. The US should have theres in another 2 weeks. We generally see them 4 weeks before release.

Commissars can no longer take powerfists? That's CRAP!

Is there any truth to the rumor that hand flamers are making a return, or just a mean tease.

Did they show any other new models in the codex?

Creed sounds like a bear I love how they are finally realizing that Guard commanders need to be able to COMMAND! And not attempt (and fail horribly) to be some kind of CC Hero.

Man I can not wait to see what kind of options we have in the codex. I really want to see what kind of wargear i can give my Officers and Sgts.

That would be *awesome* if Sgts could take combi-lasguns

Is Nork still the same

Guard sound like there actaully playable.

Apparently there has been some knocking the of book based on the rumours in other threads.

Can someone explain to me where these complaints stem from?

Guard have always been playable, you just have to be good general. Kill Points were the only thing that just hamstrung IG.

mainly from 16pt stormtroopers and 40pt ogryns, vastly overcosted for their benefits this codex. there is also a rumor floating around that rough rider lances are not power weapons any more...

Platuan4th wrote:Actually, normal Deep Strike would be more akin to a HALO(High Altitude Low Opening) drop, the Valkyrie rule would be more akin to a helicopter combat drop under fire.

AKA quick-lining.

"First rank fire! Second rank fire" only working for lasguns sucks hard. No triple tap plasma guns means absolutely no frickin' explanation for why they made 'em more expensive. Bloody useless.

What was the fix for KPs exactly? And how effectively (i know, subjective) could one run an elite/grenadiers type army with this `dex?

From what I gather, when you buy an Infantry Platoon, during deployment you may decide to treat the whole shebang as a single gestalt unit, thus rather than having 5 KPs from a single slot, it's only 1.

Quite like this idea really. However, without really knowing the ins and outs (I suspect the Gestalt will be treated as such in all phases, so same target, all charge etc) I can't really say much more with any amount of accuracy.

On the subject of Storm Troopers....they now have AP3 weapons, with seemingly no real downside, across the unit, and people expected that to come cheap, not to mention their other equipment?

Ogryns also seem to have gotten a fair boost, with FNP and an improved Statline. Sure, the 40 pts a pop seem to be a tad excessive, but given their nature in line with the rest of the army (good bulwark unit to block assaults whilst doing some damage back) and I'd say it's not entirely unjustified.

Now, Rough Rider Lances. I think this stemmed from them not being mentioned on the French Summary yes? Because it seems a tenuous assumption given it doesn't mention any HTH weapons at all....

Reet! Off to bed now. More painting to be done tomorrow and my eyes are going really odd now.

The "fix" is the ability to merge the squads in the platoon. Turn 5x10-man squads into 1x50-man squad. Not sure it's much of a fix, but I generally win my KP games anyways, so it doesn't matter too much.....

Aduro wrote:What was the fix for KPs exactly? And how effectively (i know, subjective) could one run an elite/grenadiers type army with this `dex?

their "fix" was to allow you to combine (during deployment) your platoon regular squads together into one big one. some rumor sources say you can add the command squad while others say no. also, most officers (definitely platoon but not sure about company command) aren't ICs so they don't give up a KP individually. so your platoon of 1 command and 3 reg squads gives a total of 5KP now and can give just 1 or 2 in the new codex depending on which rumor is true.

Aduro wrote:What was the fix for KPs exactly? And how effectively (i know, subjective) could one run an elite/grenadiers type army with this `dex?

The easiest fix was making officers stop being independent characters. There's also supposedly an ability for infantry squads to deploy as a single unit, like a reverse combat squad.

For an elite list, it is no longer possible to run stormtroopers as troops. However, hardened veterans got kicked from elites to troops. There might be restrictions attached but I haven't heard any. The vet squad is now a full ten men and costs 80 points with more or less the same weapons options. There are squad upgrades that allow a certain degree of extra specialization. If you want camo cloaks or carapace armor on troops, this is where you go. As for effectiveness, who knows.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:On the subject of Storm Troopers....they now have AP3 weapons, with seemingly no real downside, across the unit, and people expected that to come cheap, not to mention their other equipment?

Ogryns also seem to have gotten a fair boost, with FNP and an improved Statline. Sure, the 40 pts a pop seem to be a tad excessive, but given their nature in line with the rest of the army (good bulwark unit to block assaults whilst doing some damage back) and I'd say it's not entirely unjustified.

Now, Rough Rider Lances. I think this stemmed from them not being mentioned on the French Summary yes? Because it seems a tenuous assumption given it doesn't mention any HTH weapons at all....

Reet! Off to bed now. More painting to be done tomorrow and my eyes are going really odd now.

i don't want to start a multipage thread arguing about their effectiveness (see warseer's forum) but let's just say i disagree with you. to simply correct some mistakes or outdated info, ogryns don't get FNP according to the rumors in the past 60 days; the FNP one is from around november and hasn't been backed up since people have supposedly been looking at the codex. also, their statline hasn't been improved, just modified both up AND down. attacks and toughness went up and their guns got better; strength and initiative went down for every round except on a charge turn (furious charge) and their leadership also dropped. if they were all positive changes i'd wholeheardedly agree with an increase the price by 60% for a unit widely regarded as not worth the original 25pts.

Well at least the OP here said that he saw the RR Lances and says they still ignore armor. So hopefully they are still useful.

KP for Guard is still going to be tough, but at least we are not going to be sooooo KP heavy.

All you need is a Commissar for the platoon and you can make a big blog of Stubborn (fearless with execution) troops that will be a bear to remove from an objective, and also a bear to take out (for 1 measly KP).

Not a perfect fix, but very useful imo.

However, SWS and HWS do not help our KP issue :( they both seem rather fragile and an easy KP.

Command squads are said to not be able to merge, this seems the more logical rule. As much as I would to love to have a 55man squad with both Stubborn and FNP, i can see it as a little overthetop.

I may run with ST just to see how they play, but honestly, a full squad will run you 160pts and I think I would be better served by 40 conscripts


Honestly, imagine a 4 huge units of conscripts, backed up by Creed... giving them FC and Fearless

i don't want to start a multipage thread arguing about their effectiveness (see warseer's forum) but let's just say i disagree with you. to simply correct some mistakes or outdated info, ogryns don't get FNP according to the rumors in the past 60 days; the FNP one is from around november and hasn't been backed up since people have supposedly been looking at the codex. also, their statline hasn't been improved, just modified both up AND down. attacks and toughness went up and their guns got better; strength and initiative went down for every round except on a charge turn (furious charge) and their leadership also dropped. if they were all positive changes i'd wholeheardedly agree with an increase the price by 60% for a unit widely regarded as not worth the original 25pts.

If true then ogryns would definitely be getting a bit of the shaft, but the stormtroopers are not bad at 16. Standard marine cost with considerably more damage output (with orders), much more mobility, and a respectable punch in close combat. They would appear to me to be the games new premiere deep strike suicide squad given their not too immense cost and ability to accurately place themselves without a drop pod. The 16 points may be a shock, but they certainly are worth it in my opinion. Fragile definitely, but they pack a considerable punch.

Reecius wrote:Guard have always been playable, you just have to be good general.

For the last 6 months theyve been REALLY playable if you dont mind losing a LOT. Or having the only games you win be vs newbies/fluff armies/drunk people/whatever.

I'm sorry, but if you've been winning lots of games in the last 6 months... then with all due respect you've been playing people not on the same skill level with yourself. Or in some other way severely handicapped... like having to use the Necron codex.

Death By Monkeys wrote:"First rank fire! Second rank fire" only working for lasguns sucks hard. No triple tap plasma guns means absolutely no frickin' explanation for why they made 'em more expensive. Bloody useless.

I agree but even at 15 points each there's no way I'm leaving them out of my squads. Especially since 5e made them safer in rapid fire mode.

Aduro wrote:And how effectively (i know, subjective) could one run an elite/grenadiers type army with this `dex?

I'd consider running a veteran heavy army but not a lot of grenadiers or storm troopers. The latest rumors put veteran squads at 70 points each. They're troop choices with BS4 and the option to take three special weapons and a heavy weapon team. They can also have a Chimera. To me, these squads look pretty good.

I wouldn't run grenadiers because they cost about 30 more points just to get carapace armor. That seems pricey to me but still makes the squad a lot cheaper than stormtroopers (100 points base versus 160 points base). While some people see the ST's AP3 hellguns as worth the point bump, I remain unconvinced. I plan to drop an ST squad from my current army list and may end up dropping all three ST squads in favor of veterans or regular squads. I'll keep the STs for APOC games, for Inquisitor armies, and for the next codex.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:On the subject of Storm Troopers....they now have AP3 weapons, with seemingly no real downside, across the unit, and people expected that to come cheap, not to mention their other equipment?

Ogryns also seem to have gotten a fair boost, with FNP and an improved Statline. Sure, the 40 pts a pop seem to be a tad excessive, but given their nature in line with the rest of the army (good bulwark unit to block assaults whilst doing some damage back) and I'd say it's not entirely unjustified.

I'd say that 16 points a model for STs is a pretty serious downside. It's just my opinion but I don't think it's unique. I agree with the viewpoint that some players will still get a lot of value out of STs but I don't plan to beat my head against a wall looking for that silver lining. The STs are so well equipped now that they're just too valuable to risk in combat relative to other IG units. I expect a lot of players to either park the ST models on the shelf or use them as veterans with carapace.

I don't think Ogryns will get FNP. They appear to get T5 instead. I don't see a need to use them to block assaults given 5e's prohibition on consolidating into a new unit. I'd rather just let you crumple one cheap squad and then shoot your assaulting unit. If you have a real solid hammer unit then I'll need to repeat this process two or three times but eventually the odds in 5e are that your assault units will all die before I run out of cheap squads. On the negative side, you'll probably win Annihilation scenarios due to all of the KPs you'll gain. All you have to do is kill half my army and then keep one of your units alive till the end of the game.

See, this is funny - the more I hear of people "confirming" rumors after looking at the book, the more conflicting things I hear - Ogryns with FNP/Ogryns without FNP, RR lance=PW/RR Lance !=PW....I think we're just going to need to see for ourselves...

I'd say that 16 points a model for STs is a pretty serious downside. It's just my opinion but I don't think it's unique. I agree with the viewpoint that some players will still get a lot of value out of STs but I don't plan to beat my head against a wall looking for that silver lining. The STs are so well equipped now that they're just too valuable to risk in combat relative to other IG units. I expect a lot of players to either park the ST models on the shelf or use them as veterans with carapace.

I think guard players need to reevaluate what an "expensive" price is for a semi easy to kill model. Having played both tyranids then marines honestly 16 isn't bad for what the ST can do. And is far from something you have to "protect". Sternguard are commonly used as a suicide drop squad and those are 250 for 10 before upgrades and the drop pod. Genestealers with scout are reaching close to 20 sans upgrades and essentially trade their lives for the squad they assault. It's all in making those points count as dearly as you can, 160 isn't bad at all if they take a devastator squad with them or break a loota squad.

For 160 a stormtrooper squad can on average rolls kill 7 marines tripple tapping. They pay for themselves instantly in doing so against a basic infantry squad. I think you and "other guard players" may be expecting a bit much of 16 points if STs are too much to you.

Sternguard are commonly used as a suicide drop squad and those are 250 for 10 before upgrades and the drop pod.

Who do you PLAY against? Honestly?

ShumaGorath wrote:

i don't want to start a multipage thread arguing about their effectiveness (see warseer's forum) but let's just say i disagree with you. to simply correct some mistakes or outdated info, ogryns don't get FNP according to the rumors in the past 60 days; the FNP one is from around november and hasn't been backed up since people have supposedly been looking at the codex. also, their statline hasn't been improved, just modified both up AND down. attacks and toughness went up and their guns got better; strength and initiative went down for every round except on a charge turn (furious charge) and their leadership also dropped. if they were all positive changes i'd wholeheardedly agree with an increase in the price by 60% for a unit widely regarded as not worth the original 25pts.

If true then ogryns would definitely be getting a bit of the shaft, but the stormtroopers are not bad at 16. Standard marine cost with considerably more damage output (with orders), much more mobility, and a respectable punch in close combat. They would appear to me to be the games new premiere deep strike suicide squad given their not too immense cost and ability to accurately place themselves without a drop pod. The 16 points may be a shock, but they certainly are worth it in my opinion. Fragile definitely, but they pack a considerable punch.

like i said, i'd rather not argue so i'll just address the facts. if you're referring to the order that lets you fire 1 extra time with rapid fire, the newest rumor is that it applies only to lasguns and not all rapidfire weapons. there is a distinct possibility that the hotshot lasgun (hellgun) is not included in this category.

also, another rumor says that you can't attach priests (who let you reroll misses on a charge) to ogryn squads. according to the fluff, ogryns are VERY religious and buy all the missionary babble with the simplemindedness of a child. they're also the premiere assault unit in the IG. i'm not sure why gw thought it would be a good idea to deny the obvious synergy while at the same time ignoring the ogryn fluff that dates back even to the rogue trader days...

as always, take the rumors with a grain (or bag) of salt. i've never seen the codex myself but i frequent multiple forums daily in the hopes of getting a peek at my fav army's new codex.

ShumaGorath wrote:I think guard players need to reevaluate what an "expensive" price is for a semi easy to kill model. Having played both tyranids then marines honestly 16 isn't bad for what the ST can do. And is far from something you have to "protect". Sternguard are commonly used as a suicide drop squad and those are 250 for 10 before upgrades and the drop pod. Genestealers with scout are reaching close to 20 sans upgrades and essentially trade their lives for the squad they assault. It's all in making those points count as dearly as you can, 160 isn't bad at all if they take a devastator squad with them or break a loota squad.

For 160 a stormtrooper squad can on average rolls kill 7 marines tripple tapping. They pay for themselves instantly in doing so against a basic infantry squad. I think you and "other guard players" may be expecting a bit much of 16 points if STs are too much to you.

I can't speak for other IG players but I'd rather spend the points on a Leman Russ or a Master of Ordnance and two regular squads with plasma guns and HB or AC heavy weapons. A Basilisk and Griffon can also be had for about the same points. They could also do a number on your devestator squad or loota squad. More importantly they could start that damage on turn 1 (except in a Dawn of War scenario).

Why do you think the STs will triple-tap? The latest rumors seem to point to an order that gives that ability to IG regular infantry and maybe veterans and conscripts. I haven't seen it mentioned for STs. If they do get it, I'll reconsider my initial impression of STs in the new codex but right now I'm still in favor of dropping 1-3 squads of STs from most of my army lists in order to acquire better units.

Death By Monkeys wrote:See, this is funny - the more I hear of people "confirming" rumors after looking at the book, the more conflicting things I hear - Ogryns with FNP/Ogryns without FNP, RR lance=PW/RR Lance !=PW....I think we're just going to need to see for ourselves...

I agree with you. It's fun to talk about, but it's all hot air until the codex comes out. But what else do we do while taking breaks from painting models? And it does help me to draw up a few new lists and make decisions on which new models to add. All this talk is also inspiring me to paint a lot of models again.

Ivan wrote:

Sternguard are commonly used as a suicide drop squad and those are 250 for 10 before upgrades and the drop pod.

Who do you PLAY against? Honestly?

People who understand the value of a drop pod letting out two 5 man sternguard squads (remember they can combat squad after it). One (or both) with a few combi meltas can pay for themselves in a single shooting phase and cripple your opponents rear offense. ~300 points of marines and drop pod can easily kill their points in broadsides, oblits, lootas, leman russes, etc. They are also excellent at forcing your opponent to double back to replace a rearfield objective squad that just took 20 hellfire bolter shots.

like i said, i'd rather not argue so i'll just address the facts. if you're referring to the order that lets you fire 1 extra time with rapid fire, the newest rumor is that it applies only to lasguns and not all rapidfire weapons. there is a distinct possibility that the hotshot lasgun (hellgun) is not included in this category.

That would certainly take a bit of the bite out of the squad. Heres hoping that one isn't true.

I can't speak for other IG players but I'd rather spend the points on a Leman Russ or a Master of Ordnance and two regular squads with plasma guns and HB or AC heavy weapons. A Basilisk and Griffon can also be had for about the same points. They could also do a number on your devestator squad or loota squad. More importantly they could start that damage on turn 1 (except in a Dawn of War scenario).

True, though they will have a much more difficult time doing that capably and pressuring your opponents rearfield objectives or selectively gakking a squad that your opponent thought protected. They are expensive for a guard squad for sure, but 160 isn't enough in my book to really be a major "expenditure". Also keep in mind their ability to accurately deliver melta shots when older drop vets were both less likely to hit and less likely to land correctly.

Lets face it, IG has traditionally had 2 real unit types, TROOP and HEAVY.

And this codex looks like it really is not changing that.

HQ is limited (not bad, some interesting choices)

FAST is questionable, Hellhounds (and friends) look like they got a nerf, Sentinels got a little buff but are still minor, and Valks are nice but not huge imo. RR hopefully have their power lances but may have lost them...

ELITES well what can i say, overprice Ogryns, overprice Stormies, and ratlings that will run off the board faster than you can say "My precious".


But damn, TROOPS look awesome, and HEAVY is a total cream dream

The vendetta if its priced as the rumors say is quite possibly the new best single vehicle in the game. And you get squadrons of three of them in your fast choice.

So don't act too bummed out about that.

ShumaGorath wrote:The vendetta if its priced as the rumors say is quite possibly the new best single vehicle in the game. And you get squadrons of three of them in your fast choice.

So don't act too bummed out about that.

Big *if*, I heard many different rumors on the Vendetta. Ranging from 130 with 3 TL LC and transport ability, to a pure gunship with no transport ability, or transport ability but have to purchase the TL LC in addition to the 130 cost.

But ya, if it really is 130 for 3 TL LC, then there is virtually no reason *not* to take a squad of them. Especially considering a HWS of 3 LC will be 105.

People who understand the value of a drop pod letting out two 5 man sternguard squads (remember they can combat squad after it). One (or both) with a few combi meltas can pay for themselves in a single shooting phase and cripple your opponents rear offense. ~300 points of marines and drop pod can easily kill their points in broadsides, oblits, lootas, leman russes, etc. They are also excellent at forcing your opponent to double back to replace a rearfield objective squad that just took 20 hellfire bolter shots.

You have no idea whatsoever what you're talking about. Or you do and you're trying to troll yet another thread into a flamewar (with the help of the usual suspects).

Either is equally bad, far as I'm concerned. But I'm done, back to lurking. And before you start (again) it's not because I concede the arguement to you. It's because you're embarassing yourself far more adequately than I could ever manage.

For reference I do really hope the vendetta is more realistically priced. Even as a non transport gunship 130 for a 12/12/10 fast skimmer with 3 twin linked lascanons is cheap. I pay more for a bare predator without the extra twin linking, side armor, skimming, or fast movement. Can anyone confirm any of the options here?

You have no idea whatsoever what you're talking about. Or you do and you're trying to troll yet another thread into a flamewar (with the help of the usual suspects).

Either is equally bad, far as I'm concerned. But I'm done, back to lurking. And before you start (again) it's not because I concede the arguement to you. It's because you're embarassing yourself far more adequately than I could ever manage.

For a guy who flamed me in PM, entered a thread that I was discussing things in (civilly) and flamed me, and then flamed me again and said I was attempting to derail ANOTHER thread you're awfully sure of yourself.

Is there some sort of rule against claiming debate victory without ever having made a point?

If they are 130 points for 3 TL LC, then it is safe to say they will become an extremely common sight to see.

I mean honestly, the rumors sounds insane.

130 points for 3 TL LC
Scout, and 12man transport.

Scout! honestly, 1st unleashing that kind of firepower on side armor... it would be insane.

Every IG list would have 3 minimum.

Frighteningly given scout and the speed of the vehicle it could rather easily drop a melta vet squad on the opposing board edge first turn as well. Nothing would be safe.

Well first turn it comes in it can only fire 1 TL las, if it lives past that the next turn it only has a 6" move to fire all 3. And you will probably need to move more than 6" to drop the meltas off in range of a target. Also with such a large model deep striking should be fun.

A skirmish line can keep scouting valks out, though not everyone has the numbers to take advantage of that. It's going to take at least a couple weeks for people to figure out how to counter the Navy.

Honestly, with 3 TL LC, there is not need to get close. Just Scout move far off on a side and snipe armor with 48" range. Brutal.

Seriously, since you can make a Scout move after they deploy, it will be extremely easy to deny cover saves for their armor. And even if you do not have first turn, your scout move will give your ship cover.

Well if you arent getting across the board, why are you bothering with a Valk at all? Its so big that you will have trouble getting cover from anything smaller than a russ, doesnt score, and is still AV12. It can go for turn 5 objective grabbing, but so can a chimera.

Gestalt wrote:Well if you arent getting across the board, why are you bothering with a Valk at all? Its so big that you will have trouble getting cover from anything smaller than a russ, doesnt score, and is still AV12. It can go for turn 5 objective grabbing, but so can a chimera.

Does a Chimera have a trio of TL LCs?

Gestalt wrote:Well if you arent getting across the board, why are you bothering with a Valk at all? Its so big that you will have trouble getting cover from anything smaller than a russ, doesnt score, and is still AV12. It can go for turn 5 objective grabbing, but so can a chimera.

Moderately priced mobile firepower. The ability to move 24" for that last minute objective rush. Forcing the enemy to deploy to counter deep strikes. Just off the top of my head.

Thats the point, you arent shooting all those while crossing the board. If you are just taking it for the lascannons, infantry can do that and be a scoring unit and harder to kill. Either you are playing for objectives, it doesnt score and isnt shooting 3 LC taking objectives. Or you are playing KP, where its still just an AV12 vehicle that makes a big target, both in tactics and physical size. I'm not saying its useless, its just I don't see why people are jumping on it like its the next nobz bikers.

You know, this codex doesn't exite me (OMG! rly!! ... ) It lets me use Griffons like I've always wanted and gives me some tasty orders, but I feel it comes at too great a price. Officers seem to be a big liability, as the company is neutered without them, and leadership bubbles seem to be "popped". The army as a whole is less flexible and fluffy without doctrines. Lastly, everything but Troops and Heavy Support feels like "why bother" from the doomsday rumors.

I hope I'm wrong...

Gestalt wrote:Thats the point, you arent shooting all those while crossing the board. If you are just taking it for the lascannons, infantry can do that and be a scoring unit and harder to kill. Either you are playing for objectives, it doesnt score and isnt shooting 3 LC taking objectives. Or you are playing KP, where its still just an AV12 vehicle that makes a big target, both in tactics and physical size. I'm not saying its useless, its just I don't see why people are jumping on it like its the next nobz bikers.

No, you are not shooting those LC while crossing the board, but since you are crossing the board in a scout move (before the game starts) that does not matter.

If you think three T3 2W models are "hard to kill" ....

Slap one 50pt infantry squad in the Vendetta and it is a scoring unit.

On the first turn it will be shooting 3 TL LC as enemy side armor, AV11 or 12 will not stand a chance.

So it is extremely effective anti tank, and can make a last turn sprint for objectives, yes it is pretty awesome.

Ivan wrote:

Reecius wrote:Guard have always been playable, you just have to be good general.

For the last 6 months theyve been REALLY playable if you dont mind losing a LOT. Or having the only games you win be vs newbies/fluff armies/drunk people/whatever.

I'm sorry, but if you've been winning lots of games in the last 6 months... then with all due respect you've been playing people not on the same skill level with yourself. Or in some other way severely handicapped... like having to use the Necron codex.

You make some pretty big assumptions, but that is fine, this is internet land.

I have been playing gaurd since 2nd ed, and they have always been a contender, it just takes skill to win with them. Drop troop/Mechanized guard are still very powerful, the new rules only made them better. The new assault rules actually make it easier to beat assault armies, and the buff to vehciles and 4+ cover everywhere make the IG better than they have been in years. Plus, gets hot! was nerfed making my suicide drop squads more likely to stick around for another turn of shooting.

Kill points sucks and I truly hate the system, but I have still won over half of my kill point games with guard.

If you have been having bad luck with them that stinks, but do not presume that your bad luck applies to everyone as that would be immposible to prove. And no, my regular opponants are not bad players nor are they drunk, at least not when playing me!

If you have been losing try to rethink your lists or you tactics....or get some loaded dice! I win almost every game I play with my guard and I play against some good players. We have a lot of depth and talent in the California 40K scene.

P.S., Necrons are really good against Guard! One of the few armies they are still good against.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

On the subject of Storm Troopers....they now have AP3 weapons, with seemingly no real downside, across the unit, and people expected that to come cheap, not to mention their other equipment?

Do you honestly, really think they are worth 16pts?

Their downside is that they have to be at point blank range. They are a one-shot unit. Even with double plasma, against a 10man squad of marines, 3 will on average survive, and in the vast majority of cases pass morale. When those 3 turn around and assault the ST's, even assumign ST's get CCW/pistol, the 3 SM's still on average win and run down the ST's.

ST's have short range anti-MEQ firepower, sure. However point for point they are only staying on Par against MEQ's in a shooting war, losing if squad heavy weapons come into play, and vastly losing in CC.

Nothing they currently have justifies 16pts each in anyway. 12-13 I could see. 16? No. Not in a million years. The current ones are worth 7, at outside best 8pts. Simply giving them AP3 and a couple special rules does not warrant *doubling* the cost of what they are worth.

If they were WS4 I4 with S4 guns, then one would have a good case for 16pts as they'd actually be a threat to wiping out MEQ squad as well as not getting at least instantly torn apart in CC. As is? 13pts is the absolute outside tops I'd pay for them.

For a 190pt ST squad with 2 plasma's, you might as well take a 25man platoon with 4 plasma guns. They'd be more effective in almost every way and cost the same.

Ogryns also seem to have gotten a fair boost, with FNP and an improved Statline. Sure, the 40 pts a pop seem to be a tad excessive, but given their nature in line with the rest of the army (good bulwark unit to block assaults whilst doing some damage back) and I'd say it's not entirely unjustified.

At 40pts each they are as much as Assault Terminators.

Even if they were worth what they put out for their cost, you'd still almost always be better off taking more guns for the price because of the cost of any decent sized unit. For 5 Ogryn's you can get a 35man platoon with 4 Grenade launchers with the new book, or most Leman Russ tanks.

bubber wrote:Erm - I think Middle & I must have been reading different books.
Hotshot lasgun is a hellgun in my mind & is AP3
A Vandetta is not a Vulture - Vendetta can still carry troops while a Vulture is an out & out gunship.
Creed & Kell have different entries & therefore can be separate.
The only thing that can't get in a Valk are Ogryn - boo, no Ogryn skybourne :(.
Any weapon can fire out of a firepoint but I can't see a way of getting 5 special weapons in one squad - Chimera's are dedicated transports.
Heavy weapon & Special weapon squads are as before in number & make-up - ie 3 weapons shared between 6 guys.
There are 6 types of order. High command & some special character upgrade characters can issue 3 while junior officers get the other 3. I think High command can do the junior ones too.
Command squads have command radii - 12" for high & 6" for junior. I think commands can be relayed via a vox too.
Priests are as before where the don't take up an HQ slot (& you can have up to 5)
also you can get heavy flamers in command squads.

@ Khornatedemon - 3 different orders with 3 different abilities

@ Gestalt - if memory serves C is 80, K is 75

caveat - I am 35 and I don't always remember things as i should but am pretty confident about the above.

so there is one order for twin linking, and another for +1 armor pen/re-roll wounds against MC's is what your saying? If so can squads recieve two sets of orders in the same turn?

Morning everyone.

H.M.B.C: First rank fire! Second rank fire! applies to lasguns as written in the rule. +1shot at 12" whether moving or not, and +1 shot out to 24" if you stay still. Could be a problem as a hotshot lasgun could still be a lasgun so could qualify, but doesn't have the full 24" range. But still the rule says " at up to 24" ", so 18" could be seen as up to 24".

Haha. Flowery.

Khornatedemon: Platoon command has FRFSRF! and Move move move and duck and cover ( it's called something different. +1 to go to ground cover saves btw. ) CHQ get those 3 and another 2. One is Bring it down! Gives your squad a re-roll to wound a nominated enemy MC OR +1armout pen if it is a tank. The other is Fire on my target! gives your squad twin linked against a nominated enemy unit.

I think it's one order per unit per turn but if you roll your Ld test on a double one you get the orders first time with no interferance, so you are able to recieve a second. If you roll a double six you get a bit confused and there are no orders for you that turn.

So to clarify for you TL and Re-roll are two orders. BUT there is a slim chance that you could well end up with both.

Gestalt: I'm pretty sure it is just one CHQ still. Chimera have 5 fire points now. I take it this is from only ever having 3 of the old lasguns pointing the same way + two from the top. But now you can fire five of anything you have.

Five ripper guns.
Three lascannons + two lasguns from a HW squad.
Three meltas from Vet squad + HW if stationary + a lasgun.
Three demo charges* and two lasguns from a SW squad. ( *you can now take three demos in a squad. I didn't check if you can only fire one per turn or if you can chuck all three in the same round. So don't quote me on that one. )

Leadership is gone. Orders are the new thing. CHQ has a radius of 12" +vox net, and platoon command has a range of 6" + vox net. I did see a standard in there. One for sure gives you +1 combat res in hth ( What is it? Warhammer )

MinMax: Considering the model is amazing for the commissar lord, I didn't feel there was that much to him. Does not affect orders. Have a radius around them that instills loyalty. Can't remember exactly what it does but is to do with LD tests and rallying i think.

Yarrick is a mini Asurmen! T4, if you wound him you re-roll it for his force field. And to top that off, Eternal warrior. Has a few buffs for nearby squads too.

Glad you asked about Stracken. His robot arm does nothing what so ever. HOWEVER his Uber massively over the top catachan muscley arm is S6 on his stat, ignores armour saves and rolls an extra D6 against vehicles.

I can't say that I looked a the transport capacity for a Vendetta.

Hunting lances are identical to what they are now. S5 I5 ignore saves. And they still say eat hay if there was a rumour about that too.

I've tried not to be an ass and so have avoided the dreaded Lotta spam and Nob Bikers, but if I can look forward to this sort of IG army in addition to the pounding I've already been taking from the Space Marines, screw it. I'm bringing the pain. Those penal troops do sound fun, though.

Good to hear about the hunting lances. Also, why would hellguns be called hotshot lasguns? There is no "hotshot lasgun" in the weapons summary.

focusedfire: Not quite. You start with the CHQ orders first and give them to who you want. Then when all of the CHQ are done your platoon commands give out their orders to who ever they want. Then anyone else with their own orders, Kell, Bastonne, can shout their mouths off.

So CHQ can order your Lascannon HW teams to bring down the fex then your platoon command would give it's orders, to say FRFSRF! then your Bastonne and his vets could movemovemove! cap the objective and win the game.

As far as I could tell, you can order anything that is in range or that has a vox. Only had a once through of the orders rules but it's seems to me you can order whoever you want, be it infantry squads / ratlings / roughriders.

Primaris is an IC I think so no Chimera for him unless he joins a squad. The Psyker battle squad, I didn't see a Chimera mentioned. ( Could be one that i didn't see so not 100% on that one for you. )

Ahh, advisors. Master of ordnance gives you an earthshaker round each turn. Astropath +1 to Your reserves and can re-roll the outflank random table edge dice four your units. ( i'm thinking it is one per turn but could be more ). Fleet officer is my favourite, He sends his bombers / fighters to intercept the enemy reserves giving them -1 to reserve rolls, and he can make your opponent re-roll his outflank random table edge dice. ( Means - Oh noes, your outflanking stealers are on the opposite side to where i'm holed up in this corner. So it's 6' of getting shot at for them all game.

bubber: Hey I'm glad someone else got to see the book too. Sorry for being 'Flowery'. With the Vulture i meant that the Vendetta is the one with the guns. Didn't check it's transport capacity, but I didn't mention it first time round.

I'll take your word on Creed and Kell.

Storm troopers carry Hotshot lasguns. They are Ap 3. Hellguns do not exist anymore, you can call them that but then you may not get the benefit from FRFSRF affecting lasguns.

Thanatos73: Infantry squads are as they are now. One Sw one Hw.

warboss: Russ / Artillery / Valkrie / Vendetta are all 1-3 for which ever force org they are. Can take more than one choice of each, I know it was rumoured that You may only take one squad of three russes, but this appears to be false.

Everything is bought as a Vehicle Squadron, so no acting seperately.

Again I can assure you Hunting Lances are S5 I5 power weapons on the charge, one use only.

wilsmire: Nork got buffed slightly the same as all ogryns did. His rumoured "Stop dem wot iz tryin to urt the kernel" is in there.

Aduro: Not 100% about commanders being no longer IC's, but your 50 merged guardsmen give away one kp i think. and then another kp for the separate non-mergable platoon command.

Vets are now troops and can be given carapace. So 4+ save and 3 sw and a heavy sounds good to me. So up to six squads of those and you're good to go. I'd beware though that you won't have as many orders if you do not take a couple of platoon commands, as you'd be rellying on your one CHQ to buff the entire army.

Thanks, that is some really great information. Now I can reconvert my riders instead of shelving them.

The psyker squad looks like it has potential and it is in the low competition elites slot. Do you remember anything about how it works?

ph34r: Hellguns used to be Hotshot lasguns back in the day, I'm not sure how old you are or how far back you played so I don't know if you know that already and I don't want to offend. Some craziness made them up a couple of codecies ago, sure they sound cool, but I think we're seeing a shift to the old school with the guard.


True, there is no "hotshot lasgun" in the french summary, simply because it is translated in to French. The french have a 'Fusil radiant laser' which from looking at the stats on the leak we could deduce that it was the new stats for a hellgun which is what ST's swung around at the time. Two and two together gives us Ap3 hellguns, however the english codex puts them to be Hotshot lasguns.

That word lasgun does match up with the wording on FRFSRF! suspiciously well.

Raxmei: Primaris has a S6 Ap5 assault 2d6 power as well as the night shroud I mentioned earlier.

Psyker battle squad has large blast with the strength = number of psykers ( unit is Overseer + 4psykers, and you can buy up to another 5 psykers giving you S9. Overseer DOES NOT count to the strength, he keeps an eye out, similar to 'It's for your own good' but takes out d3 psykers for good measure, and who said there is no satisfaction in ones work. If the Overseer is dead then every psyker in the squad has to take the perils hit. )

middle wrote:ph34r: Hellguns used to be Hotshot lasguns back in the day, I'm not sure how old you are or how far back you played so I don't know if you know that already and I don't want to offend. Some craziness made them up a couple of codecies ago, sure they sound cool, but I think we're seeing a shift to the old school with the guard.

True, there is no "hotshot lasgun" in the french summary, simply because it is translated in to French. The french have a 'Fusil radiant laser' which from looking at the stats on the leak we could deduce that it was the new stats for a hellgun which is what ST's swung around at the time. Two and two together gives us Ap3 hellguns, however the english codex puts them to be Hotshot lasguns.

Just as an aside, the "Fusil radiant laser" that is on the leaked French summary sheet is the same name as what the current Storm Troopers and Kasrkin are armed with (in French). So there's no translation issue there, the name simply hasn't changed on the summary sheet. Refer to GW France online store statline entries for "Escouade de Troupes de Choc" and "Escouade de Kasrkins".

Any info on Al'Rahem you can spill? My Tallarn would like to know.

middle wrote:Leadership is gone. Orders are the new thing.

Alas, Orders and officer command bubbles don't do the same thing at all, so all in all, I expect my troops to do more, but die and fleet a lot quicker.

middle wrote:ph34r: Hellguns used to be Hotshot lasguns back in the day, I'm not sure how old you are or how far back you played so I don't know if you know that already and I don't want to offend. Some craziness made them up a couple of codecies ago, sure they sound cool, but I think we're seeing a shift to the old school with the guard.

Yeah, I did not play back then but I know that they used to be hotshot lasguns. However now they are hellguns, not lasguns, and unfortunately would not benefit from the special order.

So are Rough Riders roughly identical to what they are now then?

Just since I was intending on converting up a batch, it would be handy to know if they've been neutered.

middle wrote:
Ahh, advisors. Master of ordnance gives you an earthshaker round each turn.

Earth Shaker round each turn? For 30 points?

ph34r wrote:Yeah, I did not play back then but I know that they used to be hotshot lasguns. However now they are hellguns, not lasguns, and unfortunately would not benefit from the special order.

I believe his point is that the new dex refers to them as HSLG's and that the order may apply to them.

Flagg07 wrote:

ph34r wrote:Yeah, I did not play back then but I know that they used to be hotshot lasguns. However now they are hellguns, not lasguns, and unfortunately would not benefit from the special order.

I believe his point is that the new dex refers to them as HSLG's and that the order may apply to them.

Hm, actually now that I think about it this could be possible because the only weapon summary we have is translated from french and the translator assumed that the str 3 ap 3 weapon was a hellgun, and that it did not get a name change. Even if you can give the stormtroopers the extra shot order, I don't know if they will be worth it. We'll have to see, it just seems like 16 points is a steep price to pay for a marine killing unit when we already have battle cannons.

But it's also a relatively well protected Deep Strike unit which can carry two Meltaguns. Get lucky with an fairly accurate entry, and you stand a pretty decent chance at taking out an enemy tank, or even jumping units like Devastators or the equivalent from a position that denies them cover.

Plus they are of use against Battlsuits, Necrons etc. I see them in the same way as Stingwings. On their own, unlikely to wipe out a unit, but as an accompaniment to a Battle Cannon round, you can wipe out an entire enemy unit in a single turn, which when talking about MEQs is no bad thing. I'll stop now for fear of lecturing those who don't need it!

ph34r wrote:Hm, actually now that I think about it this could be possible because the only weapon summary we have is translated from french and the translator assumed that the str 3 ap 3 weapon was a hellgun, and that it did not get a name change.

It's not an assumption, the French weapon name hasn't changed - it's exactly the same as the current one. You can check it for yourself, as I've already mentioned:

Her Majesty's Buxom Commissar wrote:Just as an aside, the "Fusil radiant laser" that is on the leaked French summary sheet is the same name as what the current Storm Troopers and Kasrkin are armed with (in French). So there's no translation issue there, the name simply hasn't changed on the summary sheet. Refer to GW France online store statline entries for "Escouade de Troupes de Choc" and "Escouade de Kasrkins".

However if it says "hot shot lasgun" in the English Codex, that's all that matters.

Any word yet on if or how Storm Troppers can be used as troops?

Also, I don't get that whole hot shot thing. Are we talking about lasguns with get's hot or what? Who can get those? And does that mean that Storm Troopers walk around with S3 AP5 weapons? Because in that case I'd prefer shot guns.

middle wrote:Gestalt: I'm pretty sure it is just one CHQ still. Chimera have 5 fire points now. I take it this is from only ever having 3 of the old lasguns pointing the same way + two from the top. But now you can fire five of anything you have.

MinMax: Considering the model is amazing for the commissar lord, I didn't feel there was that much to him. Does not affect orders. Have a radius around them that instills loyalty. Can't remember exactly what it does but is to do with LD tests and rallying i think.

Hunting lances are identical to what they are now. S5 I5 ignore saves. And they still say eat hay if there was a rumour about that too.

One CHQ makes Creed even more useful if the CHQ is the only unit with certain orders. Also makes it a big loss if it dies. Mortar and Vox for my CHQ.
I wonder how a command or SWS with GL would do in a chimera. 6-7 S6 shots on the move. I see chimeras being much more fun now.

Is commissar lord our new LD bubble? :/

I heard Hunting Lances lost the +2I, you sure they are I5 on the charge?

Edit: Any specifics on Penal Troops?

@Buxom,
But with linguistics being what they are, there may have been no need to alter the name for the french Stormies to take advantage of the new orders rules.

I'm gonna leave any further comments on the storms to the rest of you. We all know where we stand and anyone that wants to try to argue about them with me can read my last post on the IG rumor thead part III.


@ Middle, Thank you for your reply and info. I'm liking the sounds of this codex but I can see where it will be called the IE(Imperial Eldar) by some.
It definitely pickup up quite a bit of Eldar-esque flavor with the Battle psykers, Fast skimmer transports, and the leader abilities to allow you to reroll missed hits and failed wounds.

If you don't mind I have a few more questions.

First)In your reply to warboss you said that the Valks, Russes, and Artillery are all 1-3 coices. I assume that your talking squadron numbers as oppossed to force orginazation requirements. Could you please Clarify your reply on this?

Second) Can you mix Valks and Vendettas in a squadron?

Third)Is there anything that allows the Russ Squadrons to fire independently? Does the Squadron commander have any special ability in this regard?

Fourth)The commander that gives one unit infiltrate?
Does it apply to any units or only a certain type of unit?
Could this aplly to a unit like Ogryns?

That is all for now, but thank you again for the info and replies.

Edit for spelling

focusedfire wrote:@Buxom,
But with linguistics being what they are, there may have been no need to alter the name for the french Stormies to take advantage of the new orders rules.

Yeah, that's what I was trying to point out to ph34r and others. That there is no ambiguity in the French summary sheet, it is quite clear that the name remains unchanged. And as you say, in French they are already "'radiant' laser guns" so the "First rank fire! Second rank fire!" "lasguns only" issue may be quite clear in French... in the French Codex.

All that matters is what the English Codex calls the weapons that Storm Troopers carry and whether they can be given the "First rank fire! Second rank fire!" Order. That's what I'd like some final confirmation on.

Absolutely agree with you.

Question to Buxom, Which rumored change has piqued your interest the most?

Buxom, if it has a different statline and a different description, it's a different weapon. hotshot lasgun should not be considered lasguns. Obviously, I haven't read the codex, but unless it explicitly states otherwise, the hotshot lasgun will not get the first rank fire,second rank fire rule.

"Overpowered laser packs, like the so-called 'Hotshot', provide weapons with a more potent charge but give fewer shots. They cannot be recharged after use and the extra stress on the barrel requires more maintenance."

All this is going to do is make my Krieg army take longer to build (147 in a single troop choice.....)

Okay, so can I get a few small confirmations?

NO two special weapons in infantry squads, yes?

NO sniper rifles in infantry squads, yes?

Conscripts are 10-50 dudes with lasguns and nothing else, yes?

The Valkyrie does NOT have the conversion pieces for a Vendetta included, yes?

No more track guards for IG tanks, yes?

Vox carriers must be armed with lasguns, yes?

I think that's it for now.

So far my army is looking as follows:

CHQ
-Advisors
Commissar Lord

-6-10 Ogryn

3 Platoons
-3 Infantry Squads
-3 Heavy Weapons Squads or Special Weapons squads

2 Squads of Veterans with Demolitions and melta guns

2 LRMBTs
2 Bassies
2 LR variants

Something along those lines.

Have any of you who have seen the book checked the tank ace character? I've heard rumors he gives the tank a version of crack shot that ignores cover saves and gives him +1 pen to vehicles on top of BS4. If thats true he will be a beast on a stock russ with 3 heavy bolters. He will chew up any infantry or light vehicles.

I've heard a lot of comparisons on the various sites between the Techpriest and Techmarine... Does the Techpriest Enginseer have Bolster Defences? Would love a 3+ coversave fire base.

This isn't terribly important, but is the command platoon dead? IE, can you still take heavy weapon squads as part of your HQ or are you locked into infantry platoons if you want to use them?

ubermosher wrote:I've heard a lot of comparisons on the various sites between the Techpriest and Techmarine... Does the Techpriest Enginseer have Bolster Defences? Would love a 3+ coversave fire base.

Ooh, that didn't even occur to me, but it'd be great. Of course, copypasting special rules across books is pretty boring, but setting up defenses is something the IG should excel at.

Few more questions:

1. Is the Commissar Lord a CHQ upgrade or IC? What bonus does he give to nearby squads, LD?
2. I heard Yarrick also has some rules that apply to his unit/nearby squads, anything on that?
3. What are points on Commissar Lord and Yarrick?
4. Specifics on Penal Troops
5. Cost and special rules of Nork?

Thanks for the info Middle



My main question right now, is in regards to Voxes. Do they come free in squads, or if not, do they cost the same as they do now? In addition, can Voxes be taken in HWS/SWS or ST squads? And do they still have the "Master Vox" or do you just need normal voxes?

PS. Is there an Order that lets your regroup under half strength?

If not then Creed is even *more* powerful, since he can give 4 squads Fearless/FC (auto pass morale for falling back regardless of restrictions).

Hey just wondering if anybody can answer this: Can I take a single Leman Russ (squadrons are 1-3) but not have it be destroyed if it's immobilized since it's the only one in the "squadron"?


-A.

augfubuoy wrote:Hey just wondering if anybody can answer this: Can I take a single Leman Russ (squadrons are 1-3) but not have it be destroyed if it's immobilized since it's the only one in the "squadron"?


-A.

Main rulebook. Squadrons of single vehicles do not use the squadron damage rules. They are considered to be single vehicles.

Any word on being able to attach certain units to platoons if certain criteria is met? i.e. mechanize the platoon and you get to attach a Hellhound to the formation?

OverchargeThis! wrote:Buxom, if it has a different statline and a different description, it's a different weapon. hotshot lasgun should not be considered lasguns. Obviously, I haven't read the codex, but unless it explicitly states otherwise, the hotshot lasgun will not get the first rank fire,second rank fire rule.

That's what I'm assuming, but info on Stormtroopers keeps flip-flopping back and forth... which keeps us entertained I guess. I expect it's just going to be one of those things where it depends on the exact wording - of both whether "hot shot lasguns" are considered lasguns (I find it odd that GW change the name in the same edition they introduce a lasgun-only special rule) and the "First rank fire! Second rank fire!" Order.

Well, I am going to assume that the Order does not apply to ST. (but obviously, i'm hoping to be proven wrong!)

Rosicrucian: Al'Rahem has an order where your unit can shoot and then immediately run d6". He still has his beast of a sword - causes instant death. Al'Rahem is an upgrade to a platoon command squad, you pay your points and he replaces the junior officer.

Dexy: Earthshaker each round is how I remember it, but I think it might be safer to assume the same as a marine chapter master and one per game. Still, the astropath / fleet advisor works every turn so why not.

Anung Un Rama: No Storm Troopers as troops. Can get vets as troops and give them carapace with the grenadiers option. BS4, 4+ save but no hotshots, so not far off Storm Troopers, but you do get 3 SW and a heavy in there.

Weapons wise, the hot shot is an improved power pack for lasguns. Stormtroopers used to pack them back in 2nd ed. The idea is more punch but less accurate at distance. Over the editons Hotshot lasguns became Hellguns, now they have changed ( in english, nice one for pointing that out about the french names H.M.B.C ) back to hot shot lasguns. So Stormtroopers now pack 18" rapid fire S3 Ap3 hot shot lasguns.

Gestalt: Penal legion have lasguns. Roll d6 at deployment to see what they have been up to. 1-2 is assault 2 lasguns. 3-4 is fleet, move through cover and furious charge. 5-6 is rending.

Hunting lances are identical to what they are now. Would be a bit rubbish if your one shot boom sticks got chopped down by a squad of marines who strike before you in initiative order.

focusedfire: Np, i'll clarify the squadrons for you all. Russes - HS - any mix you like is 1-3 in a squadron ( 3 Demolishers. 2LRMBT and an Executioner. Punisher + exterminator + vanquisher ). Artillery - HS - same again, 1-3 of anything you like in a squadron. Valkries - FA - 1-3 just Valkries i'm afraid. Vendettas - FA - again just 1-3 Vendettas. ( no mixing valkries and vendettas. seperate force org choices )

In all cases you may take more than one squadron so you may max out for force org with 9 russes and 9 valkries..

Russes, same with the other squadrons, are limited to the big black book for what they can do.

I think it is Al'Rahem that lets squads in his platoon infiltrate. So no Ogryns.

Scottywan82: Infantry squads may only have one special and one heavy. The special may be a sniper rifle - no funky tricks or characters allowing it, it's just a standard option.

I really can't tell you about sw / hw in a consript squad, didn't look at them for long enough.

I have not seen the sprues for the Valkrie so no idea what is in it. Didn't get shown. He did size up the base to the dragon though so that is a certainty. ( GW newsletter links to the valk on the gw site and mentions only valkrie weapon fits. )

I'm fairly sure track guards are still in there. And no idea about the vox w/ lasgun.

Khornatedemon: One tank may take Knight commander Pask. I noted that his special rules were very perculiar. He has two rules, the first says blahblahblah' a tank with him in it may use his Bs of 4. Fairly straight forward. His other rule says that blahblahblah' Any tank with him in it, that remains stationary may use his Bs of 4'.

Very very odd. Plus no mention of the crack shot you've heard, so you'll be getting cover saves and no +1 pen. He dies when the tank is destroyed too. He aint got no power armour.

ubermosher: Techpriest takes up no force org slot, fixes tanks and allows you to buy a unit of mindlocked servitors. They are the only things I noted about him.

Raxmei: Far from it! I feel it's quite important. CHQ is just your commander and his 4 guardsmen + bodyguards and your advisors. The Platoons are the only ones who have access to the Hw / Sw squads now. Means they are scoring. Mortar squad sat on an objective that you placed out of LoS sounds good to me. Heavy platoons from the HS slot are gone too.

Gestalt: Commissar Lord is an IC. I can't remember the specifics but they are Ld related, fleeing / rallying.

I get a day off work on Tuesday so i'll make a point to get another look at the dex for you all, and i'll try and cover the things your after and more.

Awesome info Middle


Do SWS/HWS have options for Voxes?
Are Voxes an upgrade or do they come standard in an Infantry Squad?
Do we have to pay for a "Master Vox" for our CHQ?

Also, did you get a good look at the WarGear options for Officers? Any cool little doodads?



PS. Did you see if ST "targeters" allow them to reroll misses?

So any confirmation on vendetta pricing? Does it upgrade to the lascanons or is that standard for the !135 point price thats been rumored (don't need to say what the number is, just whether the rumors are accurate).

BrookM: I did hear a rumour similar to that, but no, you get your massive Platoons and if you want tanks you buy them from HS. Would be nice if they went back to 2nd ed for the additional units way of working out your army. You can still play it by the fluff - Buy a platoon then buy them some hellhounds, buy a platoon and then give them some ratlings and a russ.

Would be a nice way of putting fluff on the board but I don't think it would fit too well with the current force orgs.

BoxANT: Tuesday shall bring all your vox answers ( hopefully you won't explode by then from vox deficiency )

Keep throwing your questions in, if I know them i'll let you know but if not i'll make a point to check it out for you.

The big one i'll check is Hotshot / FRFSRF!

I have a few questions:

1. What Special Characters alter the FOC and/or the general special rules for the whole army (assuming any of them do this).

2. Do any non-Special Character choices alter the FOC (ala Marine Captains on Bikes making Bikes Troops).

3. Please find out for us what the Order actually do, who they can be applied to (and what weapons), who can't use Orders, and if there are any special Orders (be they tied to specific squads or Special Characters. Guard now hinge on these orders, and so far we've got a bunch of half-confirmations.

4. What is the set up of a Command Squad (and Platoon Command Sections for that matter). Are Standard Bearers/Medics automatic in these units, or optional?

5. What do Commissars do (this includes the Lord) and is the Power Fist really arbitrarily restricted from regular Commissars? Can they/how do they attach to units?

6. Do H-Vets have a variable squad size, or are they 5/10, just 10 etc. Do they require 10 men before they can get 3 Special Weapons?

That's all from me.

middle wrote:

BoxANT: Tuesday shall bring all your vox answers ( hopefully you won't explode by then from vox deficiency )

From what I saw not a single thing moves anything about in the force orgs. Everything is set in stone. Ofcourse i'll double check to be on the safe side.

Not too sure where the Commissar lord sits in the force org but he is an IC so can join anyone. I noticed that a basic infantry squad may take a Commissar for 35pts. I will assume that you no longer assign them from top down, and that units that can have them just buy them for x amount of points. Does mean that when you mash together your 5 infantry squads you can have upto 5 commissars in there too. Not IC's so no extra kp's.

I'm fairly certain vets are still 5-10, I'll check that one out for you especially concerning the buying of sw / hw. I'll also find out if you can still sneak a heroic senior officer in there.

BoxANT: Haha. Oh noes, too late.

Wow, if vets are a 5-10 unit, that really changes things Especially if you can still take 3 SW in that 5man squad! Of course, I have to be a bit skeptical, since this would make SWS almost completely worthless (like they are now).


If you get a chance, try to sneak a peak at Conscripts and see what's up with them. I am thinking there must be a special rule for them (if they are indeed 40pts a squad). For a 10pt savings, loosing 1 WS/BS and 3 Ld is pretty steep imo, especially considering you can just merge normal infantry platoons for the same effect.

Do rough riders still automatically use their lances on the first charge, or can they choose not to use them? This is pretty important against vehicles.

Thanks middle, this really helps in planning my traitor guard army.

One more question: Are there any units that can take pistols and cc weapons instead of normal lasguns?

Edit: Oh, 2 more:
- Which units can have shotguns?
- I heard rumors about heavy stubbers as a weapon option for squads. Is that true? And is it a heavy weapon?

Anung Un Rama wrote:Thanks middle, this really helps in planning my traitor guard army.

One more question: Are there any units that can take pistols and cc weapons instead of normal lasguns?

Edit: Oh, 2 more:
- Which units can have shotguns?
- I heard rumors about heavy stubbers as a weapon option for squads. Is that true? And is it a heavy weapon?

These are three questions that I would never ask... And if the answers were #1 all #2 all and #3 yes and no then I would not care in the slightest. Not that these are bad questions, don't get me wrong, but because I don't think that IG will ever ever ever ever be a valid assault army. If you are building for assault, good luck and my hat is off to you.

Thanks for the info middle, if vets are really still 5-10 then this is great news for me.

Anung Un Rama wrote:Thanks middle, this really helps in planning my traitor guard army.

One more question: Are there any units that can take pistols and cc weapons instead of normal lasguns?

Edit: Oh, 2 more:
- Which units can have shotguns?
- I heard rumors about heavy stubbers as a weapon option for squads. Is that true? And is it a heavy weapon?

I'd asked Reds8n the shotgun question awhile back via PM and he answered back that Vets can have shotguns as well as folks in Command Squads.

Quick one from me, didn't see that you had answered it yet but if you did, sorry for asking you to repeat yourself.

Are Ogryns tough 5 with FNP, or just one or the other. And if so, what do they cost? A terminator? Less, More?

Thanks for all the info!

Hi,

Do Targeters allow a re-roll to wound? Or just measure range?

Based on what I've read here, it sounds like it's possible to field a guard army with very few troops by using Veterans to fulfill the troops FOC requirements. Is it correct that a Command HQ and two five-man Veteran squads would take care of the mandatory selections? (I ask because it will make a difference in my modelling and painting priorities - I'll go ahead and start building vehicles if I don't need two minimum-strength platoons to play)

How does a squad of Griffons work would it be a barrage ?

Hollismason wrote:How does a squad of Griffons work would it be a barrage ?

It would most likely use the multiple barrage rules from the main rulebook, with the addition of the ability to reroll the scatter dice (Griffon special rule).

There are a few oddities caused by the Griffon special rule that only allows it to fire indirectly. If any of the vehicles in the squadron move the whole squadron counts as moving the same speed and can't shoot, for instance. The closest vehicle fires the ranging shot in the multiple barrage, so it's very important that the closest vehicle to whatever you're shooting at is at least 12" from at least one model in that unit. It's also nice if the closest vehicle to the target has LOS, since that lets you subtract BS from the scatter distance.

middle wrote:Khornatedemon: One tank may take Knight commander Pask. I noted that his special rules were very perculiar. He has two rules, the first says blahblahblah' a tank with him in it may use his Bs of 4. Fairly straight forward. His other rule says that blahblahblah' Any tank with him in it, that remains stationary may use his Bs of 4'.

The rumour I remember seeing was that if a tank moves only a single weapon may use his BS but if it stays still all weapons on the tank may use it. Does that sound familiar at all?

Also, desperately hoping to get points for vendettas solidly.

Reecius wrote:Quick one from me, didn't see that you had answered it yet but if you did, sorry for asking you to repeat yourself.

Are Ogryns tough 5 with FNP, or just one or the other. And if so, what do they cost? A terminator? Less, More?

Ogryns do not, I repeat, do NOT have FNP. This rumor keeps making the rounds, completely uncorroborated. They cost the same as a Terminator, for about one-fifth of the effectiveness.

I think the reason it keeps resurfacing is because Nork has it.

Kungfuhustler wrote:

Anung Un Rama wrote:Thanks middle, this really helps in planning my traitor guard army.

One more question: Are there any units that can take pistols and cc weapons instead of normal lasguns?

Edit: Oh, 2 more:
- Which units can have shotguns?
- I heard rumors about heavy stubbers as a weapon option for squads. Is that true? And is it a heavy weapon?

These are three questions that I would never ask... And if the answers were #1 all #2 all and #3 yes and no then I would not care in the slightest. Not that these are bad questions, don't get me wrong, but because I don't think that IG will ever ever ever ever be a valid assault army. If you are building for assault, good luck and my hat is off to you.

It's not that want to build a CC focused Guard army. I'm asking for modelling reasons: I going to build a small traitor guard force as support for my Death Guard and I was planning on using Flagelants and Skaven Plague Monks for a few units and building them with pistols and CC weapons will be a lot easier then using lasguns.

I also want to use my still-in-the-box Necromunda Scavy Gang, but I'm not sure for what.

Cool, 3 russes in 1 sq. My MEQ opponents toy soldiers gonna die! Wahahahahahhaha....

Now, for the penal legion. Is it rending lasguns or rending HTH?

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Reecius wrote:Quick one from me, didn't see that you had answered it yet but if you did, sorry for asking you to repeat yourself.

Are Ogryns tough 5 with FNP, or just one or the other. And if so, what do they cost? A terminator? Less, More?

Ogryns do not, I repeat, do NOT have FNP. This rumor keeps making the rounds, completely uncorroborated. They cost the same as a Terminator, for about one-fifth of the effectiveness.

Ugh, I just bought some Ogryn too, what a waste. Why, oh why would anyone do this? Unless their bayonets are now power weapons, they just are not worth 200 points for 5. Stupid, stupid, stupid. They should have remained the cost they were.

Reecius wrote:
Ugh, I just bought some Ogryn too, what a waste. Why, oh why would anyone do this? Unless their bayonets are now power weapons, they just are not worth 200 points for 5. Stupid, stupid, stupid. They should have remained the cost they were.

If it makes you feel any better, you're spending 200 points on a 15 wound counter-assault unit...

... Yeah, I'd buy the Executioner instead, too. Sorry, I tried.

ubermosher wrote:

Reecius wrote:
Ugh, I just bought some Ogryn too, what a waste. Why, oh why would anyone do this? Unless their bayonets are now power weapons, they just are not worth 200 points for 5. Stupid, stupid, stupid. They should have remained the cost they were.

If it makes you feel any better, you're spending 200 points on a 15 wound counter-assault unit...

... Yeah, I'd buy the Executioner instead, too. Sorry, I tried.

Yeah i think it was Deadshane that presented this perspective.

'elite choice'

13 points per model

WS4 BS3 S5 T5 I3 A1 LD6 Sv5+

gun 12" range assault 1 S5 AP5

Of course this unit would have slightly more attacks on the charge since it is actually more models, and is 10 points less expensive, but its a good way of looking at the ogryns on a bite size level, without getting bogged down by the 40 point price tag.

For what its worth, none of my lists I've been tinkering with have ogryns in them.

All in all, great news. All of it is much appreciated.

I'm ravenous for news about HQ structure:

Is it still mandatory to take a CHQ?

Is there any way the Company Commander can lose the squad, be an IC? (Hoping for flying pigs here...)

No commanders are not ICs they are part of the squad and can't leave.

Wouldn't make much sense in an IG army anyway.

It was a great change to make IG Officers non IC. I think I can count on one hand the amount of times i've had my HSO loose his squad and actually join another squad. Usually when the squad goes, the commander is dead with them.

IG officers as IC is only a liability.


I am also glad Commissars look like they are not IC as well Makes me feel less uneasy fielding them. A 50man unit lead by a commissar is a tough nut to crack

BoxANT wrote:IG officers as IC is only a liability.

And a KP, don't forget that.

But you are correct - I can count the amount of times that an Officer has survived the destruction of his squad on one hand. He almost always goes with it.

I heard on LO (librarium online) that as many squads as you want can be merged into a single unit. For example: A platoon of 5 squads gets merged into one group of 30 men and another group of 20, each group being worth 1 KP, OR a group of 30 and 2 groups of 10 for 3 KP etc... Anybody know for sure?


-A.

Magic Hate Ball Says:

All signs point to yes, augfubuoy.

That is somewhat good news, but I am still disappointed by the lack of being able to merge HW squads with infantry. Hopefully the HW squads turn out to be less vulnerable than they seem.

augfubuoy wrote:I heard on LO (librarium online) that as many squads as you want can be merged into a single unit. For example: A platoon of 5 squads gets merged into one group of 30 men and another group of 20, each group being worth 1 KP, OR a group of 30 and 2 groups of 10 for 3 KP etc... Anybody know for sure?


-A.

Yeah, you can merge the infantry squads in a platoon.

ikew wrote:All in all, great news. All of it is much appreciated.

I'm ravenous for news about HQ structure:

Is it still mandatory to take a CHQ?

Is there any way the Company Commander can lose the squad, be an IC? (Hoping for flying pigs here...)

Company command squads are not mandatory.

"Company command squads are not mandatory."

Really? That's fantastic! I don't know why, but I've always preferred an HQ that can drift freely from squad to squad or go it alone. It's great to hear that I can have an army lead by a Commisar Lord or Primaris Psyker, even if that means giving up the opportunity to really dive into the awesome new "orders" system...

Afternoon folks.

Just got back, made lots and lots of notes and had a good read. I'm still good to answer questions, but I have points and rules for everything so writing them up is going to take a little while. I'll post in chunks, say: HQ, Elites, Troops ... easier to read and easier to write?

Mods: Am I ok putting out points costs? That not gonna step on anyones toes / copyright blahblahblah?

Please please please middle, what do targeters do??

Targeters? Absolutely nothing. Stormtroopers do not have them anymore. It's going to break a few hearts I know, but still they do come with hotshot lasgun + hotshot pistol and a ccw.

Wow thats absolutely lame. Any idea if the hotshot lasgun benefits from FRFSRF?

also can vets be bought in squads of 5, or is it 10 only?

Couple quick questions:

You'll probably get to it but what are the costs of the SWS and the weapons?

How do sniper squads work? Or are they even in there? There was the rumored 6 man, bs4 team w/Infiltrate and Stealth w/the option to take camo cloaks but I haven't seen it mentioned or how it would work.

That's pretty much it

WE NEED YOU MIDDLE POST ON HOW ORDERS WORK!!!! WOOHOOO

what is "listen up you maggots"
Can you have vet squads get fists

I'm typing up a post with loads in it but still keeping an eye out for questions.

Khornatedemon: Wording on FRFSRF! is ' models firing lasguns ' Thats all I can give you.

Vets are vet sergeant + 9 vets. No more 5-10.

Hulksmash: No dedicated sniper squad in there. You get your 3-10 Ratlings with inf + stealth or your 6man sws with 3 sniper rifles.

I'll throw the points in with the write up.

OMG Middle, do not let my had asplode!

So fists in Vet Squads??

Can you explain the Orders??

Can you send me and BoxANT 50$??

Dude. Nick. Chill.

Did I get that right? Stormtroopers have Hotshot guns? The ones with AP3? I thought they get Hellguns only

Anung Un Rama wrote:Did I get that right? Stormtroopers have Hotshot guns? The ones with AP3? I thought they get Hellguns only

*sigh* Once again, Hellgun = Hotshot Lasgun. They're the same thing, GW is just changing the name BACK to the 2nd ed name from the 3rd ed name.

No im fine just messing around...... kind of (50$ anytime)

These are facts straight from the book. A lot of the things in Frazzled's sticky are true but a few things are not.

Orders: Officers have a number of orders they can give out. Company Commander gets two orders per turn and 12" range, Platoon Commanders get one order and 6" range.

LD test for the squad being ordered on the squads LD. Pass you do the order immediately. Fail and you act normally later in the shooting phase when all orders are done. Double one you may receive an additional order.

Start of the shooting phase you start with your Company Commander and assign his two orders to squads. Company Commanders have the same three orders that Platoon Commanders have + three of their own.

Company Commanders: Bring it down! Pick an enemy unit to fire at with the unit being ordered. The ordered unit gets Twin-linked weapons against that enemy unit.

Fire on my target! (I have to apologize here, I think I mixed up Pask's +1ap/re-roll wounding MC's with the HQ orders. ) Same again, Pick an enemy unit to fire at with the unit being ordered. The enemy unit must re-roll successful cover saves from the ordered unit.

Get back into the fight! You order a unit that is falling back to immediately regroup ( no test except the one for one to recieve the order ) even if there is enemy nearby / the squad is under half strength. If a unit is pinned and you call this order, then that unit is no longer pinned. In both cases the unit may shoot and assault this turn.

_____________________________

Platoon Commanders: FRFSRF! "models firing lasguns" +1 shot. I'll leave the interpretation too you, but i'm certain there will be a YMDC about it and whether a hotshot is a 'special type of movement' or not.

Movemovemove! 3d6 run and pick the highest.

[duck+cover] Didn't write the name down but you immediately go to ground so no shooting but you get +2 cover save in opponents turn.

_____________________________

In all cases, orders may be given to friendly non-vehicle units that are not embarked in vehicles ( so no chimera TL fire points ).

In all cases orders are immediate. As soon as you receive your order from the Commander you do as you are told. That is your shooting / run for the phase albeit buffed, there is no shooting twice.

In all cases each unit may receive one order ( unless you roll a double one ). Pass or fail your test, that is still your one order.

Officers in vehicles may not give orders if they themselves are embarked in a vehicle ( Chimera is an exception to this with it's Mobile Command rule )

This ones for BoxANT, Vox casters ignore the range for orders so you can do it anywhere on the batttlefield and let you re-roll your Ld test.


EDIT: Thanks Biophysic. Similar orders may be given to different squads. EG: two different squads both with bring it down.

I am SO dying to read this summary.

My questtions are, what weapon options for ST sergeants. PW? PF? Plasma Pistol?

Fire on my target! (I have to apologize here, I think I mixed up Pask's +1ap/re-roll wounding MC's with the HQ orders. ) Same again, Pick an enemy unit to fire at with the unit being ordered. The enemy unit must re-roll successful cover saves from the ordered unit.

And this single handedly put IG above Orks and a few other armies. I can see now why they're going to be a tourney army. Ugh, gonna be a painful year.

Generally though how many shots are the guard gonna have to make you reroll cover saves? The only time I can see this working is if they merge a giant unit and let loose with it at 24" against a horde. I think it's fun and fluffy and definitely helps out the stormtroopers if they don't get the extra shot they really will kill more marines than before.

You know, I'm thinking that these orders are going to be a lot more fun and more tactical than the old doctrines.

There may be some that become stand-outs, but from the summary (thanks middle!) they all seem pretty useful.

strange_eric wrote:

Fire on my target! (I have to apologize here, I think I mixed up Pask's +1ap/re-roll wounding MC's with the HQ orders. ) Same again, Pick an enemy unit to fire at with the unit being ordered. The enemy unit must re-roll successful cover saves from the ordered unit.

And this single handedly put IG above Orks and a few other armies. I can see now why they're going to be a tourney army. Ugh, gonna be a painful year.

It's only one squad getting the order, maximum two, if you can give the same order twice. It's good, but it won't apply to most of the big pie plates, just the SWS's demo charge. I think it will be nicest used by heavy weapon squads trying to bring down vehicles in cover. If you can get your plasma vets close to an enemy in cover, however, I could definitely see this order being issued at that time.

the [duck & cover] order is actually called Incoming!

and if you roll a double 6 for leadership when trying to carry out an order, not only does it fail, but no more orders can be given (by any officer) this shooting phase.

strange_eric wrote:And this single handedly put IG above Orks and a few other armies. I can see now why they're going to be a tourney army. Ugh, gonna be a painful year.

You wouldn't happen to be the same Strange E from Galactic Games in Metairie? If so, what are they thinking of these rumours?

The Fire on my Target rule only applies to cover saves, doesn't it? Considering that roughly 80% of every IG army run around with AP- weapons I don't see the problem.

a 75% chance to fail is still better than the 84% chance most orks and tyrannids have against lasguns But really they'll be the main armies affected though I can see the use w/lascannon HWS on nob bikers

yeah, but at least you won't have to worry about giving low-armoured opponents cover saves!

and most of the heavy/special weapon squads aren't going to have AP- weapons!

Platuan4th wrote:

strange_eric wrote:And this single handedly put IG above Orks and a few other armies. I can see now why they're going to be a tourney army. Ugh, gonna be a painful year.

You wouldn't happen to be the same Strange E from Galactic Games in Metairie? If so, what are they thinking of these rumours?

They love em. We have a couple of Guard players who really need a new book. lol.

I think you guys are completely forgetting the fact that Heavy Weapon Platoons can join up with the Main squad. Heavy Weapon Platoon + Re-Roll your cover save = some dead orks. So yes they have _plenty_ of weapons that can ignore Armor. I wasn't talking about Lasguns obviously. I would even concede that if you need to shove some lascannons in a squad that 3 heavy weapon squads + the 1 lascannon in the squad already can help punch out most things, especially if the Re-Roll cover save applies to Vehicles, since that can pretty much screw any vehicle from living in 5th edition.

Rumor is that HWS can NOT join up with anything. Only basic Infantry squads can join up.

actually, only infantry squads can be combined, not conscripts, special/heavy weapon squads, or veterans.

EDIT: you beat me to it! btw, I can confirm this.

Middle, were you able to get the information down about the Catachan special character(or characters)? ( I'm ditching cadians for Catachans! yes...no joke)

We want more middle!! Thank you for doing this!

middle wrote:
In all cases, orders may be given to friendly non-vehicle units that are not embarked in vehicles ( so no chimera TL fire points ).

Well that's convenient. Prior to this I had been on the fence about buying a vox for my squads but since my basic battle plan is going to be to have all of my squads bunkered up in Chimeras (12+ at 1750 points will not be hard at all) I can just save the points.

In fact, 11 Voxs that I don't have to buy is another Chimera.

There's a special character upgrade to the veteran squad (replaces the sergeant) called Gunnery Sergeant "Stonetooth" Harker, and he has FNP and relentless. Also, his special rule 'Catachan Devils' gives him and his squad squad infiltrate, stealth and move through cover.

Quistis84 wrote:actually, only infantry squads can be combined, not conscripts, special/heavy weapon squads, or veterans.

EDIT: you beat me to it! btw, I can confirm this.

Hurrah, internet went down before my stupid @$$ could confirm this bit. Regardless I believe you can give the order to the HWS, no?

If you are within command range.

Yes, an officer can give orders to any friendly non-vehicle unit within his command radius

And what are the command radii of officers? Are platoon commanders different from company commanders? And does Creed get the 12" radius we've heard about?

12" for CHQ, 6" for PHQ

Creed is 24" RADIUS.

and 24" for Creed

HQ: CHQ is now Company Command Squad. 50pts. NOT MANDATORY. PF 15pts amongst others, nothing new.

Four vets with lasguns. Can swap to laspistols for free. The wording is important throughout the book ' One other '. One may have Regimental banner ( re-roll morale / pinning and +1 combat res ). 'One other' may have medic 30 ( FNP ). 'One other' may have vox 5. 'One other' Heavy flamer 20

Two form a heavy team. Mortar5. Auto/HB 10. Missile 15. Las 20.

Upto four without anything already: Flamer/Grenadelauncher/Sniper 5pts. Melta 10. Plasma 15.

HW/SW costs are same for anyone that can take them ( vets, inf, platoon command, SW. NOT HW SQUADS )

No Commissar allowed in CCS.

Entire squad: Krak 5. Carapace 20. Camo cloaks 20. Chimera. No shotguns.


Commissar Lord 70. IC. PW 10. PF 15. Carapace 10. Camo cloak 10. MBombs 5. Chimera.

Yarrick 185. IC. Friendly's in 12" Stubborn. Yarrick and his unit on the charge re-roll to hit in cc. Force field=you wound him you re-roll. Hotshot laspistol in his eye. Eternal warrior. When dead, lie him on his side. next turn on a 3+ stand him back up, 1-2 =dead. Chimera.

Primaris. 70. Forceweapon.

Straken. Friendly's in 12" counter attack and furious charge. S6 initiative order power weapon, Rolls an extra d6 for armour pen. shotgun.

Priests. 45. No force org. IC. Can have chainfist 15 and shotgun free. Unit he is with re-roll to hit on the charge. NO EFFECT on Ratlings / Ogryns.

Techpriests. No force org. Carapace! Power armour is for wimps. Can have upto 5 servitors +15 each. Two can have HB 20 or MM/PC for 30 ( possible to have 2 PC ). Servitors are mindlocked if techpriest is dead. Fixes on 5+ with +1 for each tech servitor. No chimera ( seems like it's everyone but them and the ratlings got one ).

EDIT: AAAARRGH. I missed out Creed and Kell. Creed. 90. TL hotshot pistols. 4 orders! 24". For the honour of Cadia! Fearless and Furious charge.

Kell. 85. Laspistol. PF. Listen up maggots! Unit Kell is in listen intently to their officer so can use the officers Ld for orders not their own.

Creed replaces your Company Commander. Kell Replaces one of your CCS vets. Do not have to be taken together, but will both be in the same CCS unless you take two CCS.

EDIT: AAAAARGHH. Advisors! 30 each. Astropath +1 to your reserves and you can re-roll your outflank dice.

Fleet officer -1 to enemys reserve rolls and you can make them re-roll their outflank dice ( harrassing thier reinforcements ).

Master of ordnance. If he stays still he gets an Earthshaker round with unlimited range EACH TURN! 3d6 scatter ( -Bs if he can see the target.)

Yes... Yes.... It all starts pouring in....

SO psyched for Yarrick. Did you not cover Creed because he's been done?

Interesting. So if you want to, you can have your Commissar Lord, ala Gaunt, leading your army without a CHQ/CCS. Hell, by the looks of this, you could have a Primaris Psyker leading your army!

Yeah! don't need to have the CHQ. I quite like the idea of having a Lord Commissar lead my army, with 2 squads of veterans in chimeras, and 6 Leman Russ punishers with hull mounted lascannons (1500 points)

middle wrote:HQ:

' One other '. One may have Regimental banner ( re-roll morale / pinning and +1 combat res ).

Is that just the CCS or does that apply to his Radius? I can't see it ever mattering, otherwise.

middle wrote:No Commissar allowed in CCS.

¿POR QUE?

middle wrote:
Entire squad: Krak 5. Carapace 20. Camo cloaks 20. Chimera. No shotguns.

Cheap Krak kinda makes me happy.

middle wrote:
Commissar Lord 70. IC. PW 10. PF 15. Carapace 10. Camo cloak 10. MBombs 5. Chimera.

Is it just me, or are his upgrades kinda stupid/expensive? Also, does he not have options for guns? PPistol, Bolt Pistol, etc?

middle wrote:
Priests. 45. No force org. IC. Can have chainfist 15 and shotgun free. Unit he is with re-roll to hit on the charge. NO EFFECT on Ratlings / Ogryns.

Hooray for changing fluff to affect game balance

middle wrote:[Techpriests. Carapace! Power armour is for wimps. No chimera

Duuuuuude, WTF? They have Power Armor in the French Summary! DAMN YOU!

Also, no Chimera? What the H? I know alot of cool Mars Pattern Chimera conversions that are gonna be very sad.

Let us pave the way for Mars Pattern Valkyries! Flying Cog-Boys!!





Creed makes me happy. Mix him, a large block of Conscripts with a priest, and angry ol' Chenkov. For some reason I feel like saying "om nom nom nom" when I charge now...

Are the statlines for Priests the same as rumored before? A 1 wound, T3 model seems extremely expensive at 45 points. The only conceivable use I can see for him is an attachment to a blobbed infantry platoon that you want to use to take an objective, but even then as he's an independent character he won't live too long in combat. That's really pricey.

Awesome Middle!


So the CCS is all Vets? As in all have BS4? Wow that's pretty nice.


Any more clarifications on Penal Legions & Conscripts? Squad size, points, rules ect?

bad double post, bad!

I read that the Techpriest gets Power armour and the Servitors get carapace armour

are the CCS vets actual vets now with BS 4? might make giving them plasma guns and/or heavies worth it. Especially if they can fire out of their chimera.

Company Command Squads are Vets, with BS4

The 24" Leadersip radius on creed seems pretty huge.. it almost means you don't have to take voxes. My army as it stands now would need 10 voxes, so Creed only costs an additional 30 instad of +80... The company banner and the vox seem good, the medic is a bit expensive. Guess I'll be retrofitting those.

Priests still seem unimpressive, and I think it's pretty dumb techpriests don't get power armour, but that's just a minor gripe. A techpriest with two servitors would fix tanks on a 3+ if I'm reading this correctly, which seems pretty huge;

Yarrick is looking like the powerhouse (well for IG anyway) he should be, so I'm quite please with that. So will H.B.M.C. I'd guess .

Is it just me, or do the 3 advisors seem damn-near mandatory, especially the reserve-influencing ones?

Thanks for the info Middle and Quistis84, keep it coming!

I don't see the point in taking many voxes, as all they do is let you re-roll the LD test. Sure, it may be worth it in some squads, but if you know you're going to be out of range, I wouldn't bother taking them.

Edit: you might want to check again Middle, as I'm positive that Techpriest get Power Armour

one question about special characters are they army specific? Or like the SM codex can Creed and Kell join your Praetorian Army and Chenkov your Catachan army, etc, etc.

The astropath seems madatory for a Tallarn Army.

Or my count-as-al'rahem lieutenant

They're not army specific, they just offer different rules. In fact, Creed replaces a Company Commander, and Chenkov replaces a Platoon Commander, so you could have both in the same army

Edited for Creed and Kell. And advisors

Also I'm not sure where Nork belongs so he get his own post.

Nork. Didn't get his points. FNP ( just him not normal Ogryns. ). Look out AAARGHH just like CCS bodyguards ( looks like I missed those too. Commander gets wounded, stick it on the bodyguard. 15pts each. May have two per CCS. Add to CCs not a swap. )

Heroic Sacrifice. If Nork dies, immediately roll d6 S6 hits on enemy unit. To 'stop dem wot iz tryin to urt da kurnel'.

Loyal to the end. Nork may never be the target for a summary execution. If his Commander is subject to Summary execution then you remove the Commander. Then Nork retaliates. Remove the Commissar.

Little quote at the bottom of the page from Nork. ( may not be word for word ). " The sergeant major asked me what my job is. I told him it's to do what I am told. He gave me a medal. I like the Imperial Guard. "



Techpriest: I saw carapace and wrote it down . True it may have been for the servitors with PA for him. I can check again next time to confirm.

Nork is 110 points, and if you take him, the command squad can't have any bodyguards.

well, this is a mixed bag. i think i'll have alternate lists planned depending on what my army my opponent is fielding and what the mission type will be. it'll be easy enough to choose between the 3 advisors (90pts) and creed (90pts). if i'm facing drop pods or dark angels, i'll take the former; otherwise, creed will be my choice. if middle is correct about the 30pt medic cost, i'll be dumping them out of my 3 command squads; that should pay for the above...

CommissarKhaine wrote:The 24" Leadersip radius on creed seems pretty huge.. it almost means you don't have to take voxes. My army as it stands now would need 10 voxes, so Creed only costs an additional 30 instad of +80...

See, I was thinking that myself, in addition to the points costs that come with protecting 2 CCS, Creed seems like a bonafide bargain. But then I realize that your CCS isn't the only thing barking out orders. All those PCS are now huffing along 6" away from anyone they're giving orders to.

I know it seems pretty minor, but I can definitely see situations where you'd want to run a squad of vets into cover, or double tap some heavy weapons across the board. I'm sticking with my Vox-Net just to be sure. It's like a warm, comforting blanket.


On that note, can HWS or SWS take a vox? I've heard a couple conflicting rumors (and I doubt it's even possible in a HWS, since they're all part of the teams), a confirmation would be nice.

Quistis84 wrote:I don't see the point in taking many voxes, as all they do is let you re-roll the LD test. Sure, it may be worth it in some squads, but if you know you're going to be out of range, I wouldn't bother taking them.

Edit: you might want to check again Middle, as I'm positive that Techpriest get Power Armour

Uhm.. Isn't that the point of voxes? Unlimited range? I figured the re-roll was icing on the cake.

No, voxes only give a re-roll (which is why I'm not impressed with them!)

Heavy and Special weapon squads can't take voxes

Medi-packs are 30 points and give the unit FNP

Khornatedemon wrote:are the CCS vets actual vets now with BS 4? might make giving them plasma guns and/or heavies worth it. Especially if they can fire out of their chimera.

Perhaps... but since your Commander gives 2 orders (and he is the only one who can order the anti tank/cover/regroup), I am thinking that keeping this squad alive and out of trouble is the highest priority.


I really love the fact that our Command Squads are setup to actually command and not as a free SWS

middle wrote:

Heroic Sacrifice. If Nork dies, immediately roll d6 S6 hits on enemy unit. To 'stop dem wot iz tryin to urt da kurnel'.

Loyal to the end. Nork may never be the target for a summary execution. If his Commander is subject to Summary execution then you remove the Commander. Then Nork retaliates. Remove the Commissar.

Little quote at the bottom of the page from Nork. ( may not be word for word ). " The sergeant major asked me what my job is. I told him it's to do what I am told. He gave me a medal. I like the Imperial Guard.

.... These may be the three funniest things to ever come out of a Codex that wasn't Orky.

In light of this sheer awesomeness, I think I'll morph my CCS from a "Sit in the truck and command" to a "Stand on the top of the building and blow things away... while commanding" squad.

So... you can mix Nork, Creed, and Kell? Wow. Good luck EVER killing Creed...

Regimental banner is 12" range and yarp Commissar lords / Commanders can have more weapons.

Thought you might want the fun / interesting / new stuff, not whether a Commissar lord can have a PW.

PW. Bolt pistol. Boltgun blahblahblah


True, no vox in HWS / SWS / ST

You can potentially get as many different regiments in your army as you can fit Special characters in to it.

Creed leading with Al'Rahem and Chenkov with a platoon each. A devil vet squad. A Cadian vet squad. Kamir with your RR.

Quistis are you CERTAIN about voxes? It seems fairly unlikely that no one has mentioned it before now...

AlexCage wrote:So... you can mix Nork, Creed, and Kell? Wow. Good luck EVER killing Creed...

Maybe not in HtH...but that's what Battlecannons with 72" range are for...

I think it is most likely that the Imperium has learned to clone Nork I have a feeling he will be popping up in many IG CCS

Death By Monkeys wrote:

AlexCage wrote:So... you can mix Nork, Creed, and Kell? Wow. Good luck EVER killing Creed...

Maybe not in HtH...but that's what Battlecannons with 72" range are for...

...... MEDIC!!

middle wrote:Regimental banner is 12" range and yarp Commissar lords / Commanders can have more weapons.

Thought you might want the fun / interesting / new stuff, not whether a Commissar lord can have a PW.

PW. Bolt pistol. Boltgun blahblahblah


True, no vox in HWS / SWS / ST

So at least our Plasma Pistols didn't get a price hike. Hurrah.

Hey. Can we a confirmation on the guns of a Hydra? I know it's been asked before, but I still see confusion (Just an Autocannon? Twinlinked? Just one or two of these guns?)

Thank you for all the confirmation. You make my day happy.

And if indeed it's true that Voxes don't allow long-range orders, I don't see any reason to maintain the Vox-Net. Bring on Creed!

... Oh man. All this talk of "Two CCS Vs. Creed", it never occured to me to have Creed and a secondary CCS. 6 Commander Orders per turn is sexy, says I.

I'll check the range thing again next time. Certain that command + squad have vox = re-roll.

Commissar lord has a bubble btw. 6" and can use his Ld of 10. His unit is stubborn.

Quistis84 wrote:No, voxes only give a re-roll (which is why I'm not impressed with them!)

This is the first I heard that voxes still require you to be in range of the Officer. I would need others to confirm this before I believe it.

Middle, I know I keep nagging, but any idea on the weapon options for ST sgts? I want to know if they can get PFs.

It would make absolute no sense of the Vox required to be in range of the officer...

"Can you hear me?! Sir? Can you hear me?!"

"Soldier, I am standing right next to you..."

"Sir! You are breaking up! Please Repeat!"

Hey! Question on Bodyguards and wounds allocating from their commander.

.. How does that work? Like say, if the Commander takes a wound do you just put it on the bodyguard (And thus remove him), or say like, all wounds allocated to the Commander (before rolling saves) can be moved to the Bodyguard? And if so, how many can we allocate, per Bodyguard (I heard "up to 2" bouncing around the rumour mill).

Basically, do we put the wound on the bodyguard before, or after saves?

Hrm. And while I'm being pedantic, is there anything to indicate that the Master of Ordnance's pie plate is considered part of HIS shooting? i.e. does the CCS have to shoot at what he drops the bomb on? In that vein, can he still shoot his laspistol? (Hey, one can dream).

BoxANT wrote:It would make absolute no sense of the Vox required to be in range of the officer...

"Can you hear me?! Sir? Can you hear me?!"

"Soldier, I am standing right next to you..."

"Sir! You are breaking up! Please Repeat!"

lol, so basically the IG have become a Verizon Wireless army!! i can picture it now... squads inching closer to the command squad, repeating "Can you hear me now??" into the vox until they get into command radius! i'll have to add little red jackets to all my vox operators!

Onwards to the next section. I know you've all got questions but they'll hopefully be in the section for that unit if you can bare to wait. Saves me writing things twice.

Elites: Ogryns. 130 for 1+2. 7 more at 40 each. No FNP. Chimera. furious charge and stubborn. ( didn't notice a commissar in there. Could have missed it. )

Ratlings. 30 for 3. 7 moer at 10 each. Laspistols. Inf and stealth.

Psyker battle squad. Missed out earlier at the start of the thread, Weaken Resolve. 36" Enemy Ld is reduced by the number of psykers in the squad. So full 1+9 squad = -9 Ld ( down to a minimum of Ld2 [ See Storm troopers: Behind enemy lines. You'll like it ] ).

Plus the large blast Ap d6 S=number of psykers. Chimera. Pick one to be the caster for LoS purposes.

Stormtroopers. 1+4 for 85 then 5 more at 16 each. Hotshot lasgun + hotshot laspistol + ccw + frag and krak each. No Targeters. Deepstrike. Chimera.

Sergeant can have a PW. Two can have SW. Didn't make a note of MBombs. Safe to assume the sergeant can at least because an inf squad sergeant can, and RR sergeant can ( but not his squad now ).

Pick a style for them. Recon: Scout and move through cover.

Airborne deployment. If DS then re-roll scatter.

Behind enemy lines. Inf and first time they shoot their weapons cause pinning. Even if you save it all game until the last turn or something bonkers like that.

Also: in the wargear section for hotshot lasguns '.... powerpacks make the lasguns more powerful. This allows the hellgun to shoot .... ' I think there was only two sentences and it mentions hellgun like it has been the only thing mentioned in the book so far.

Flavour text I know, but it is lasgun flavour.


_______________

Master of ordnance. His shooting is the earthshaker round just like a marine chapter master.

Bodyguards: I can certainly double check next time but i'm sure it is a wound on the Commander after saves and the bodyguard takes one wound if you want.

AlexCage wrote:

middle wrote:No Commissar allowed in CCS.

¿POR QUE?

Arbitrary restriction is Arbitrary.

The psychic choir looks terrifying. Might mix well with the stormies pinning mission, or in general ordinance and snipers. Expect to be pinned a lot against these guys.

middle wrote:Also: in the wargear section for hotshot lasguns '.... powerpacks make the lasguns more powerful. This allows the hellgun to shoot .... ' I think there was only two sentences and it mentions hellgun like it has been the only thing mentioned in the book so far.

LOL, way to go GW with the vaguery!

Thanks for all the update goodness, middle.

warboss wrote:well, this is a mixed bag. i think i'll have alternate lists planned depending on what my army my opponent is fielding and what the mission type will be. it'll be easy enough to choose between the 3 advisors (90pts) and creed (90pts). if i'm facing drop pods or dark angels, i'll take the former; otherwise, creed will be my choice. if middle is correct about the 30pt medic cost, i'll be dumping them out of my 3 command squads; that should pay for the above...

lol@list tailoring.


Ogryn's seem to be garbage. Again. Not even remotely worth 40pts. Closer to 25pts.
Psyker battle squad? Interesting. Good for pinning units. Depends on their survivability though. The Large Template is good. Dark Eldar have been throwing that around for years. How much is a full squad?
Stormtroopers are garbage at 16pts a model. No doubt people will field them because "AP3 wins games!" They should have stayed at 10-11pts a model.

So far I'm still seeing no reason to bulk up on troops and tanks, and leave the Elites at home.
Edit: Correction, Depending on cost I see a reason to bring Psyker Battle Squads. The potential to pin units at 36" range is fairly potent.

ShumaGorath wrote:The psychic choir looks terrifying. Might mix well with the stormies pinning mission, or in general ordinance and snipers. Expect to be pinned a lot against these guys.

I'll take them against my friend's Lash-spam army.

STILL no PF for my STs?!?!? Dammit!

That's again with a unit I can't actually use.

If Guard take off in the tournament scene, it seems like the psyker squad will necessitate other players having some kind of psychic defense or risk the horrific effects of the squad.

1.) Pick nastiest assault squad the enemy has.
2.) Reduce leadership of said squad to 2.
3.) Hit it with pinning weapons (probably Basilisks or Griffions, but it's not that important), or do 25% casualties.
4.) Laugh

Seems like two psyker squads, in Chimeras, weakening the resolve of two squads/turn could one of those builds that gets sportsmanship tanked (I've been waiting for something like that for the Guard). It's not that many points, and it is potentially devastating. The laughter probably wouldn't help sportsmanship either.

middle wrote:Onwards to the next section. I know you've all got questions but they'll hopefully be in the section for that unit if you can bare to wait. Saves me writing things twice.

****snip****

Stormtroopers. 1+4 for 85 then 5 more at 16 each. Hotshot lasgun + hotshot laspistol + ccw + frag and krak each. No Targeters. Deepstrike. Chimera.

Sergeant can have a PW. Two can have SW. Didn't make a note of MBombs. Safe to assume the sergeant can at least because an inf squad sergeant can, and RR sergeant can ( but not his squad now ).

Pick a style for them. Recon: Scout and move through cover.

Airborne deployment. If DS then re-roll scatter.

Behind enemy lines. Inf and first time they shoot their weapons cause pinning. Even if you save it all game until the last turn or something bonkers like that.

Also: in the wargear section for hotshot lasguns '.... powerpacks make the lasguns more powerful. This allows the hellgun to shoot .... ' I think there was only two sentences and it mentions hellgun like it has been the only thing mentioned in the book so far.

Flavour text I know, but it is lasgun flavour.


_______________

Master of ordnance. His shooting is the earthshaker round just like a marine chapter master.

thanks for the info. so stormtroopers don't get an option for the vox? also, just to clear this comparison up, the master of ordanance gets to "fire" every round when stationary and not the once per game that the chapter master gets?

Fire every round even if 3D6 scatter if can't see is nasty for 30 points

Biophysic wrote:If Guard take off in the tournament scene, it seems like the psyker squad will necessitate other players having some kind of psychic defense or risk the horrific effects of the squad.

Doesn't Lash do that already? And doesn't help against things that are fearless, which are the nasty assault units. Not sure its something you want to build an army around, nice but not a power build because of reliability.

Gestalt wrote:

Biophysic wrote:If Guard take off in the tournament scene, it seems like the psyker squad will necessitate other players having some kind of psychic defense or risk the horrific effects of the squad.

Doesn't Lash do that already? And doesn't help against things that are fearless, which are the nasty assault units. Not sure its something you want to build an army around, nice but not a power build because of reliability.

The really nice thing about the psyker squad is that it offers anti-pskyer defense for the IG, within their own codex. Handy, that.

Gestalt wrote:

Biophysic wrote:If Guard take off in the tournament scene, it seems like the psyker squad will necessitate other players having some kind of psychic defense or risk the horrific effects of the squad.

Doesn't Lash do that already? And doesn't help against things that are fearless, which are the nasty assault units. Not sure its something you want to build an army around, nice but not a power build because of reliability.

Yes, I think you're somewhat correct, but I was thinking that the Psyker Battle Squad might be more difficult to defend against, as it has an extra 12" of range, meaning it is less susceptible to firepower based psychic defenses. Maybe I'm wrong.

Troops: Platoon. Platoon Command + 2-5 squads + 0-5 HWS + 0-2 SWS + 0-1 Conscript platoon.

PCS. 1+4 for 30. Same weapon options as for CCS except no regimental banner ( they get Platoon banner +1 combat res. If Only 4 ranks and a musician too. If only. ) and can not have carapace and camo cloaks. No advisors and no bodyguards. Commissar for 35
( obviously the Company Commander thinks highly of himself that he doesn't need a commissar for himself. That and he doesn't want to get shot. ). Chimera.

Al'Rahem. 70. 2 orders. 12" range ( a big reason to upgrade if nothing else is the extra orders and the range ). His WHOLE PLATOON MUST OUTFLANK, HWS and all.

Power sword that causes instant death.

Chenkov. 50. 2 orders. 12" range. Onwards you dogs!=Friendly's in 12" get stubborn. Next wave! Any conscripts in the army may have for 75 points the ability to remove them in your turn and they come on at the start of your next turn rule.

Infantry squad. 50. Commissar 35. Entire squad krak for 10. Sergeant MBombs 5. One SW. One HW team ( SW and HW costs are the same for CCS ). 'One other' vox5. Chimera

HWS. 60. Comes with mortars. Lasguns. Frags. HB/Auto 5. Missile 10. Lascannon 15. Krak 5 for the entire squad!!! ( now thats dedication for you. Your AT team brings kraks with them ). No Chimera. No vox.

Only 3 models in the squad. 2W each as with all HW teams now.

SWS. 35 for 6. 3 can choose to replace lasgun withFlamer/Grenadelauncher/sniper 5. Melta 10. Plasma 15. Demolition charge and keep your lasgun 20. Demo charge has no limit to how many in the squad / how many can fire each turn. Still one use only. No Chimera.

6" range with 2d6 scatter-3. x3 .You have been warned.

Conscripts. 80 for 20. Just lasguns and one ccw. 4 points each after that upto a cap of 50. EG: no more buying in tens, you may now have 49 if you feel the need / save a few points for a vox somewhere else. No SW / HW. No Chimera ( they wouldn't fit but that doesn't stop chaos marines. )

Vets. 70pts for a full 10. No 5-10 anymore makes me sad. Lasguns and frag + krak. 3SW and one HW. Can have shotguns for free. Same weapon costs as for everyone else but one of the Sw per squad may be a Heavy Flamer for 20. Chimera.

Sergeant POWER FIST 15. PW 10.

May have any of the following "Doctrines" ( The only time you'll hear it )for 30pts a time. ( all three if you must. )

Grenadiers - Carapace.

Forward sentries - stealth + snare mines ( Defensive grenades )

Demolitions - MBombs and one has a Demolition charge + his other normal kit.

Can replace the Vet sergeant with Harker. 55. Relentless with a Heavy Bolter ( him only ). Has FNP ( him only). He and his squad are Catachan Devils=Stealth and move through cover. May not have the Grenadiers "doctrine".

Can replace the Vet sergeant with Bastonne. 60. Hotshot pistol + PW + carapace ( him only). His squad can always regroup ' regardless of normal restrictions, IE: under half strength / enemy nearby. Cadian noble so he may issue orders like a Platoon Commander. Possibly no range on the orders though, i'll have to check. It could well be just his squad.

Penal legion. 80 for 1+9. Lasgun, ccw custodian has a pistol and no lasgun. Scouts. Stubborn.

1-2 = Gunslingers. Assault 2 lasguns.
3-4 = Psychopaths. Counter Attack, Fleet and Furious Charge.
5-6 = Knife fighters. +ccw and cc attacks are Rending. No rending lasguns.


Chimera. 55. MLaser + HBm, Searchlight and smoke launchers ( see 40k rulebook = 4+ cover )

MLaser for a HB / HF for free. HB for a HF for free. Pintle Stormbolter / Stubber 10. Hunter killer 10. Dozer 10. Extra armour 15.

Camo netting. EDIT: 20. Stealth if you stay still. So +1 cover save to your smoke if you don't move.

Amphibious. 5 fire points ( Stick whatever you've got out of them )

Mobile Command. May give orders from inside. Still can't receive orders if mounted in a vehicle even if it is a chimera. Measure order range from the hull.

EDIT: Camo netting is 20. Added it in.

Wait, so vets have no way of infiltrating?

middle wrote:Chimera.

Amphibious.

Well, that's a relief. I was afraid they'd nerf this!

Anyone else disappointed in the apparently arbitrary restrictions in the list? Priests would make Ogryns semi-useful. Naturally they don't work on Ogryns. Techpriests can't get Chimeras for no reason. Stormtroopers were overpriced, and are now even more overpriced. Powerfists cost 5 points more in this book than they do for Chaos Terminators. So many pointless decisions that it makes my head spin. Not that there isn't good in the book, but there is quite a bit of "what was Robin thinking" going on.

middle wrote:Grenadiers - Carapace.

Forward sentries - stealth + snare mines ( Defensive grenades )

Demolitions - MBombs and one has a Demolition charge + his other normal kit.

Can replace the Vet sergeant with Harker. 55. Relentless with a Heavy Bolter ( him only ). Has FNP ( him only). He and his squad are Catachan Devils=Stealth and move through cover. May not have the Grenadiers "doctrine".

Wait, so Harker and Forward Sentries provide Stealth, and neither provide Infiltrate or Outflank?

Also, thanks for doing this, middle!

OMG Yarrick ....T4 Reroll wounds Eternal Warrior stand back up on 3+, makes necons look weak....

I wonder what'd happen if you put Demo SWS in valks....nukes in a plane! (though it probably would hit oneself more often than not...but it'd be fun)

Wow, the special Vet Sgts are something of a steal. If Harker gives the squad a "doctrine" and has a heavy bolter, he only pays 20 points + cost of Sgt. for his FNP and Relentless, plus whatever other buffs he has.
I don't know about Bastonne, but he might be cool too, if not so much of a steal.

Wierd that HWS and SWS can't get chimeras, but otherwise isn't looking too bad!


Edit: Does Stealth USR allow for outflanking? I kind of thought it did, but I might be wrong.

I can't waits to model me up a Jesse Ventura-looking Sgt. Harker with a mini-gun HB. In fact, if I weren't a lousy painter and it weren't nearly the end of March already, I'd make myself up a Vet Squad looking like the cast of Predator for the Jungle Warfare contest!

Incredibly sorry. It's a massive difference but the Vets have CAMO CLOAKS and Not STEALTH. OOPS. Means +2 to cover saves marine style.

Nice catch MinMax.

And Death By Monkeys, ' Whats the matter? The CIA got you pushing too many pencils? ' and then he mows him down with a heavy bolter and then assaults him just because he can.

Wow, I am underwhelmed. A few things that really irk me.

60 points for a 3 model heavy weapon squad that will die to three multi-laser wounds?

No transports for heavy weapon or speacial weapon squads and on top of that no option to take a vox on the two units that could probably most benefit from one (and the two units I would consider buying a vox for since they can't start in a Chimera). Looks like my heavy weapons will be staying in 10 man line squads only.

Veterans 10 man only, 8 points apiece for penal legionaires, 16 points apiece for storm troopers. All pre-existing non-chimera vehicles more expensive?

Ogryns still pretty much useless.

Lots of arbitrary restrictions on what can take a comissar, what can take a power fist. It's almost like they took each frequently unused option from the current book and decided how it could best be used in the new book and then specifically forbid it from being used that way. Wow.

So basically it looks like all I will be buying new for my guard army will be some Griffons (probably from Ebay or some 2nd hand source) and maybe some more Chimeras. I was hoping I might be able to spice my list up a bit more than that, very disappointing.

middle wrote:Can replace the Vet sergeant with Harker. 55. Relentless with a Heavy Bolter ( him only ).

So what you're saying is we get Ox(who was already conveniently sculpted to look like a Catachan) back, but not any of the OTHER Last Chancers(even Schaeffer)?

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if when they "release" Harker, it's just the Ox mini.

Scottywan82 wrote:Wait, so vets have no way of infiltrating?

Second that. WTF? So correct me if I am wrong, only the Space Hobbits and the Glory Boys have Infiltrate now in a Guard army? Oh boy. My regiments fluff and doctrine seems to going down the toilet. Drop Troops + Light Infantry gives me a highly thematic airborne regiment that I enjoy playing. I can retain the Drop Troop- theme by shoveling a big pile of cash for the new fancy transports but thats it apparently .

middle wrote:
Mobile Command. May give orders from inside. Still can't receive orders if mounted in a vehicle even if it is a chimera. Measure order range from the hull.

Do all chimera have this? A rumor said only one for CHQ or something.

Gestalt wrote:

middle wrote:
Mobile Command. May give orders from inside. Still can't receive orders if mounted in a vehicle even if it is a chimera. Measure order range from the hull.

Do all chimera have this? A rumor said only one for CHQ or something.

Nope, all Chimera have it.

I think they all have mobile command, but only command squads can use it, really...

tomguycot wrote:Veterans 10 man only, 8 points apiece for conscripts, 16 points apiece for storm troopers. All pre-existing non-chimera vehicles more expensive?

4 points a piece for conscripts. They're 20 for 80 points, not 10. I still doubt I'd take them, though.

Death By Monkeys wrote:

tomguycot wrote:Veterans 10 man only, 8 points apiece for conscripts, 16 points apiece for storm troopers. All pre-existing non-chimera vehicles more expensive?

4 points a piece for conscripts. They're 20 for 80 points, not 10. I still doubt I'd take them, though.

Oops, I mean the penal legionaires. I will edit the above post.

Not even with a priest attached? Would love to swamp over some poor donkey-cave's unit with unwashed conscripts...

Death By Monkeys wrote:

tomguycot wrote:Veterans 10 man only, 8 points apiece for conscripts, 16 points apiece for storm troopers. All pre-existing non-chimera vehicles more expensive?

4 points a piece for conscripts. They're 20 for 80 points, not 10. I still doubt I'd take them, though.

They can be leadership 10 stubborn if you attach a commissar lord. That is basically gaunt + conscripts but buffed (no "no retreat" wounds)

Seems like its the best or one of the best tarpits in 40k.

Not really my style to run tarpits... but as long as you can physically keep bodies around the commissar, then its not falling back, and its not crumbling.

middle wrote:Ratlings. 30 for 3. 7 moer at 10 each. Laspistols. Inf and stealth.

Slightly cheaper than before. Shame about the Ld6.

Psyker battle squad. Missed out earlier at the start of the thread, Weaken Resolve. 36" Enemy Ld is reduced by the number of psykers in the squad. So full 1+9 squad = -9 Ld ( down to a minimum of Ld2 [ See Storm troopers: Behind enemy lines. You'll like it ] ).

Plus the large blast Ap d6 S=number of psykers. Chimera. Pick one to be the caster for LoS purposes.

Depending on the cost that could be really scary. Can you move and use Weaken Resolve? Nice to hear confirmation that you can get the entire squad's strength through the Chimera's sunroof.

Only with Chenkov. And then only if I could max the army with them. And that would mean I would have to paint waaaaaay more minis than I want to.

And add Chenkov and you can refresh the unit, too.

Just keep a priest in reserve, so to speak, lol

No transports for heavy weapon or speacial weapon squads and on top of that no option to take a vox on the two units that could probably most benefit from one (and the two units I would consider buying a vox for since they can't start in a Chimera).

SWS teams can take a vox. Additionally, your squads can "borrow" transports from other units.

Looks like my heavy weapons will be staying in 10 man line squads only.

Looks like my HWS will be shooting out of the 5 fire points of some other units chimera.

Veterans 10 man only

Yeah, but they score...and they have access to PF's

8 points apiece for conscripts

Conscripts are only 4pts a piece.

16 points apiece for storm troopers.

Meh. Jury is still out on them. Some of the combos you can do with them and some of your orders has me thinking though.

All pre-existing non-chimera vehicles more expensive?

Basic russes are only 10pts more, but gain Lumbering Behemoth...well worth the 10pt increase.

Capt K

tomguycot wrote:60 points for a 3 model heavy weapon squad that will die to three multi-laser wounds?

Yes I did say that.

middle wrote:Only 3 models in the squad.

However the next sentence says:

middle wrote:2W each as with all HW teams now.

And conscripts are 4pts.

Gestalt: All Chimera have it.

Scottywan82: Yeah vets get no inf. But then again they are troops now, part of the battle line like a real man.

middle wrote:

tomguycot wrote:60 points for a 3 model heavy weapon squad that will die to three multi-laser wounds?

Yes I did say that.

middle wrote:Only 3 models in the squad.

However the next sentence says:

middle wrote:2W each as with all HW teams now.

And conscripts are 4pts.

Gestalt: All Chimera have it.

Yes, they might as well have 100 wounds because 3 multilaser shots will still kill all three due to instant death.

Edit: double post

Fast Attack. Scout sentinel. 35. 1-3. Open topped, Scouts, Move through cover. MLaser. HF / Auto5. Missile launcher 10. Lascannon 15. Searchlight 1. Hkiller 10. Entire squad: SMoke launchers for 5 per model. Camo netting for 10 per model.

Armoured sentinel. 55. 1-3. Mlaser. Extra armour. Same weapon costs and also a PC for 20. Same upgrades. ( So Camo PC's / LC in a wood you say? 3+ cover save you say? Hard to shift you say? Unless you are fighting guard and then they just order you out of the cover while they shoot you and then you can walk back in when they're done with you. )

Rough Riders with S5 I5 Power weapons on the charge. 1+4 for 55. +5 at 10 each. ( Cheaper ? ). All have Hunting lances = S5 I5 Power weapons on the charge. MUST USE IN FIRST CHARGE. Pistol or CCW (your choice - I know which i'm having ). Frag+krak. Sergeant may have Mbombs 5. PW 10. One may have Flamer/Grenadelauncher 5. Melta 10. Plasma 15.

Mogul Kamir. 40. Replaces sergeant. Squad has rage. He has +D3+1 attacks on the charge.

Hellhounds. 1-3 any combo. HH 130 with Inferno cannon. DD 120 with Melta cannon. BW 130 with chem cannon. All have a hull HB. HB may be a HF for free. HB may be a MultiMelta for 15. ( Uber ). Searchlight 1. SB / HS 10. HK 10. Extra armour 15. Entire Squadron: Smoke 5 per model. Camo netting 20 per model.

( Insert sound effects here )

Valkrie. 1-3. 100 bang on. transport 12. No Ogryns ( They don't like the dark and i'm guessing they don't like flying either. ). MLAser. 2 Hellstrikes ( S8 Ap3 Ordnance. NO blast. One use only ). Searchlight. Extra armour. DeepStrike. Scout. MLaser can be a lascannon for 15. Swap both Hellstrikes for 2 multiple missile pods 30pts ( S4 Ap6 Heavy 1 Large blast ). +Pair of "sponson" HB's 10.

( I can not remember who asked but there are NO Vendetta parts in the Valkrie box )


Vendetta. 1-3. 130. Transport 12. No Ogryns. 3 TL Lascannon. Searchlight. Extra armour. Deepstrike. Scout. Can swap 2 TL Lascannons for 2 Hellfury missiles EDIT: for free ( S4 Ap5 large blast. ). +Pair of "sponson" HB's 10.

Why god did they have the PW and PF for the Vet Squad so hellaciously over priced?

Its like they decided to point out the Book in a complete vacuum, which while some things _should_ be priced according to their value in the codex itself. There's also effectiveness and usability they seem to have overlooked completely. 15pts for a PF? really? 10pts, sure...

Argh. So many good things, and so many little terrible things that annoy me.

Don't get me wrong - I believe that conscripts have a good place and could be very useful. Just not in my army. I think if you go for a very infantry heavy army then conscripts is a good way to go. I just don't know how I'd balance them with armor.

tomguycot: I see your point. Sorry just thought you'd missed the 2W bit and was in the middle of writing the FA while looking for questions.

middle wrote:( I can not remember who asked but there are NO Vendetta parts in the Valkrie box )

Vendetta. 1-3. 130. Transport 12. No Ogryns. 3 TL Lascannon. Searchlight. Extra armour. Deepstrike. Scout. Can swap 2 TL Lascannons for 2 Hellfury missiles EDIT: for free ( S4 Ap5 large blast. ). +Pair of "sponson" HB's 10.

Thanks for the continuing excellent rundown middle. Just a question - did you see any pics of the Vendetta (model, art or diagram). Just curious where and how the LC's mounts might be 'officially'.