Just Dave wrote:

blood reaper wrote:Like the Mandrakes and the Ravager , both look aswome but i refuse to place that "sail" on it.

Refuse to place the sail on the raider too?
An extra "2D6 movement says no.

Pen≥Sword wrote:Oh man Urien has been buuusy. I honestly can't wait to see Drazhar's new stats. He was a combat monster in the old Dex and if the rumors about Lelith are true...

Pen≥Sword wrote:

Just Dave wrote:

blood reaper wrote:Like the Mandrakes and the Ravager , both look aswome but i refuse to place that "sail" on it.

Refuse to place the sail on the raider too?
An extra "2D6 movement says no.

Is it a Raider upgrade?
Just wondering if you've gotten a peek at the Dex.

chaos0xomega wrote:I for one will not be putting the sail on my raiders... instead I'll be building even BIGGER sails!!! Those litttle dinky things just don't do the design justice!

Rymafyr wrote:

Pen≥Sword wrote:Oh man Urien has been buuusy. I honestly can't wait to see Drazhar's new stats. He was a combat monster in the old Dex and if the rumors about Lelith are true...

What's sad is Drazhar's usefulness was all but nerfed near the end of 3rd edition as they tried to streamline the CC rules.

joker8911 wrote:Thanks, just googled him. How do you get the box up showing what someone else wrote?

Phototoxin wrote:Convertible from flagellants, dark elves and greenstuff?

Pen≥Sword wrote:

Rymafyr wrote:

Pen≥Sword wrote:Oh man Urien has been buuusy. I honestly can't wait to see Drazhar's new stats. He was a combat monster in the old Dex and if the rumors about Lelith are true...

What's sad is Drazhar's usefulness was all but nerfed near the end of 3rd edition as they tried to streamline the CC rules.

I've used with a fair amount of success (mostly against combat 'elite armies), but paying the points for almost 4 incubi for one always hurts.

joker8911 wrote:Thanks, just googled him. How do you get the box up showing what someone else wrote?

Kanluwen wrote:Uh, what exactly are you asking about being convertible from "flagellants, dark elves, and green stuff"? Mandrakes? Because if that's the case, then no. The little robed part would be a pain in the ass to convert from being cloth(even raggedy cloth) to stitched together flesh.

joker8911 wrote:

joker8911 wrote:Thanks, just googled him. How do you get the box up showing what someone else wrote?

never mind just figured it.

Rymafyr wrote:

Pen≥Sword wrote:

Rymafyr wrote:

Pen≥Sword wrote:Oh man Urien has been buuusy. I honestly can't wait to see Drazhar's new stats. He was a combat monster in the old Dex and if the rumors about Lelith are true...

What's sad is Drazhar's usefulness was all but nerfed near the end of 3rd edition as they tried to streamline the CC rules.

I've used with a fair amount of success (mostly against combat 'elite armies), but paying the points for almost 4 incubi for one always hurts.

Ya, don't get me wrong, I used him constantly in 3rd. It was a nice alternative to not taking a 25pt shadow field since he could switch places at any time with the Lord. But once you were able to have wounds spill over 2" from those models in base to base, that skill was useless.

Farmer wrote: Urien looks freaky...since when did he have 4 arms, well i guess 4 arms are better then two.

Pen≥Sword wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Uh, what exactly are you asking about being convertible from "flagellants, dark elves, and green stuff"? Mandrakes? Because if that's the case, then no. The little robed part would be a pain in the ass to convert from being cloth(even raggedy cloth) to stitched together flesh.

Not to mention the Mandrake models are fantastic.
Based on the prices we've seen as well I'm sure it would be cheaper to just buy the actual models.

Amaya wrote:Is it just me or is everything really priced low?

JohnHwangDD wrote: If they were plastic, and Troops, at $4.50 each, I'd actually consider buying some.

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:And keep saying to myself - you are a ork modeler, you are a ork modeler...

This is unfair... That Raider model is awesome, and i will buy it anyway...

Farmer wrote: Urien looks freaky...since when did he have 4 arms, well i guess 4 arms are better then two.

Kanluwen wrote:

Kurgash wrote:Anyone actually read the fluff parts of the codex yet? Any absolute horror stories akin to NecronxDante?

Get the hell over the Necrons+Blood Angels ignoring each other in the face of a shared enemy. Seriously. It's waaaaaay past time to move the feth on past that one bit of fluff, which quite possibly could be an indicator of the way Necron fluff is going to progress(to where the Lords and Necrons proper behave more independently than they did in the past).

Kurgash wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Kurgash wrote:Anyone actually read the fluff parts of the codex yet? Any absolute horror stories akin to NecronxDante?

Get the hell over the Necrons+Blood Angels ignoring each other in the face of a shared enemy. Seriously. It's waaaaaay past time to move the feth on past that one bit of fluff, which quite possibly could be an indicator of the way Necron fluff is going to progress(to where the Lords and Necrons proper behave more independently than they did in the past).

It's not your army...you wouldn't understand It would be like having Dark Elves and High Elves team up to destroy a Chaos Warband then leave each other alone after the battle.

Kurgash wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Kurgash wrote:Anyone actually read the fluff parts of the codex yet? Any absolute horror stories akin to NecronxDante?

Get the hell over the Necrons+Blood Angels ignoring each other in the face of a shared enemy. Seriously. It's waaaaaay past time to move the feth on past that one bit of fluff, which quite possibly could be an indicator of the way Necron fluff is going to progress(to where the Lords and Necrons proper behave more independently than they did in the past).

It's not your army...you wouldn't understand It would be like having Dark Elves and High Elves team up to destroy a Chaos Warband then leave each other alone after the battle.

Kanluwen wrote:They didn't team up to begin with. How is this so bloody complicated? Dante wasn't hugging his BFF Lord Shinyskull while they skipped and frolicked, smiting Tyranids left and right.

Grabzak Dirtyfighter wrote:I wonder how that raider will look with big mag wheels, a boiler-looking engine mounted to the back, and a crap ton of orks and grots hanging off the side...

Gwar! wrote:Given the fact that Space Marines are PROGRAMED to be Genocidal Maniacs and Necrons are OMNICIDAL maniacs, this is pretty much the same as hugging his BFF Lord Shinyskull while they skipped and frolicked, smiting Tyranids left and right.

Gwar! wrote:Given the fact that Space Marines are PROGRAMED to be Genocidal Maniacs and Necrons are OMNICIDAL maniacs, this is pretty much the same as hugging his BFF Lord Shinyskull while they skipped and frolicked, smiting Tyranids left and right.

LunaHound wrote:Yay for options

kronk wrote:

Grabzak Dirtyfighter wrote:I wonder how that raider will look with big mag wheels, a boiler-looking engine mounted to the back, and a crap ton of orks and grots hanging off the side...

So beautiful, it brings a tear to my eyes.

joker8911 wrote:

kronk wrote:

Grabzak Dirtyfighter wrote:I wonder how that raider will look with big mag wheels, a boiler-looking engine mounted to the back, and a crap ton of orks and grots hanging off the side...

So beautiful, it brings a tear to my eyes.

Yes Yes LOOT IT!!!

BrookM wrote:I've pre-ordered a box of Wyches and a box of Warriors, I can hardly wait.

Saintspirit wrote:

joker8911 wrote:

kronk wrote:

Grabzak Dirtyfighter wrote:I wonder how that raider will look with big mag wheels, a boiler-looking engine mounted to the back, and a crap ton of orks and grots hanging off the side...

So beautiful, it brings a tear to my eyes.

Yes Yes LOOT IT!!!

Oh, come on. Don't you understand you have to do it, with this guy?

Kroothawk wrote:BTW who is now winning the big Dakka bet? Don't know the exact wording but you can preorder and pay all stuff and you can hold the preview Codex in your hands at the GW store.

chaos0xomega wrote:I have to say, the urge to preorder randomly without knowing what it is I am buying (in regards to rules) is overwhelming... REALLY hoping someone gets their hands on a codex soon and posts some in depth info online.

chaos0xomega wrote:Yeah, thats what I'm worried bout. I have money... but I need it to cover rent and buy food, so I can't just go spending it willy nilly just because it looks nice. It has to be halfway decent and fit with whatever crazy theme I decide to go with.

Tunnel Rat wrote:What do you suspect they'll put in the new Battleforce set?.

Kurgash wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Kurgash wrote:Anyone actually read the fluff parts of the codex yet? Any absolute horror stories akin to NecronxDante?

Get the hell over the Necrons+Blood Angels ignoring each other in the face of a shared enemy. Seriously. It's waaaaaay past time to move the feth on past that one bit of fluff, which quite possibly could be an indicator of the way Necron fluff is going to progress(to where the Lords and Necrons proper behave more independently than they did in the past).

It's not your army...you wouldn't understand It would be like having Dark Elves and High Elves team up to destroy a Chaos Warband then leave each other alone after the battle.

Spiff wrote:I'm not entirely sold on the Hellions...the head and arms just seem off. But I'll wait to see more examples.

I...I also like the old Urien more. The fleshy servo harness is creepy...but the model isn't THAT impressive.

Spiff wrote:I...I also like the old Urien more. The fleshy servo harness is creepy...but the model isn't THAT impressive.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Aduro wrote:

grak wrote:

Kinda similar imho.

You're right! A purple horned elf with green tattoos is JUST LIKE a black faceless elf with green tattoos!

Oh, wait, no, they're not at all alike except for both being elves with green tattoos.

You missed the fact that the purple one has wings...

Also, AFAIK those arent tattoos on the mandrake, its warp energy I think.

JohnHwangDD wrote:How come the Mandrake has no mouth?

Nvs wrote:Demiklaives were just the normal incubi weapon I thought they said :(

AlexHolker wrote:
Somewhere in Commorragh there's a man waking up in a bathtub full of ice water, who has no arms.

eNvY wrote:I'll probably order 3 ravagers and some Mandrakes when they release as well.

Tailgunner wrote: Compare the way they've done his skin mask with the Archon from the original range to see how far the DE have come.

Tailgunner wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:
Somewhere in Commorragh there's a man waking up in a bathtub full of ice water, who has no arms.

I really like the Urien mini. I normally avoid metal models now, but I'll have to get this one. Compare the way they've done his skin mask with the Archon from the original range to see how far the DE have come.

As a couple of people have observed, the Mandrakes are very derivative of WoW (it's mostly the long white hair and blank faces), but if Blizzard was an inspiration for the new DE than that's not a bad thing. Anything that gets them away from the crude S&M outfits of the previous version is an improvement.

Tailgunner wrote:]
As a couple of people have observed, the Mandrakes are very derivative of WoW (it's mostly the long white hair and blank faces), but if Blizzard was an inspiration for the new DE than that's not a bad thing. Anything that gets them away from the crude S&M outfits of the previous version is an improvement.

Pen≥Sword wrote:the old Archon model

Archonate wrote:

Pen≥Sword wrote:the old Archon model

a.k.a. Princess Bananafingers.

Archonate wrote:

Pen≥Sword wrote:the old Archon model

a.k.a. Princess Bananafingers.

eNvY wrote:Well, I've officially taken the plunge:

Codex
1 Archon
1 Wych Squad
2 Incubi Sets
2 Warrior Squads
4 Raiders
2 Reaver Jetbike Squads

I'll probably order 3 ravagers and some Mandrakes when they release as well.

Archonate wrote:

eNvY wrote:I'll probably order 3 ravagers and some Mandrakes when they release as well.

I'd hold up on filling all HS with one thing. Some of the other HS options are shaping up to look pretty tasty....

eNvY wrote:Well, I've officially taken the plunge:

Codex
1 Archon
1 Wych Squad
2 Incubi Sets
2 Warrior Squads
4 Raiders
2 Reaver Jetbike Squads

Pen≥Sword wrote:

Nvs wrote:Demiklaives were just the normal incubi weapon I thought they said :(

Really? I thought it was just Klaive. Like a knife and... glaive.

Kroothawk wrote:

4.) As the specialty item is a representation of the warp portal, someone over at Warseer pointd out that we might see them in the background from the warrior box art:

grak wrote:
Codex £17.50 / $29
Reavers £21 / $34.75
Raider £20 / $33
Incubi £18 / $29.75
Warriors £15 / $24.75
Wyches £15 / $24.75
Archon £8 / $15
Lelith £8 / $15

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Tunnel Rat wrote:What do you suspect they'll put in the new Battleforce set?.

Assuming there even is a new BattleForce, I'd suspect that it would have 10 Warriors, 10 Wyches, 1 Raider and 3 Reaver Jetbikes.

Erasoketa wrote:What would be an average monthly payment in Oz? Because if you guys make 5000$AUD per month I don't see the problem

lords2001 wrote:

Erasoketa wrote:What would be an average monthly payment in Oz? Because if you guys make 5000$AUD per month I don't see the problem

Some of us do make that much. I do, though I'm saying that to show I'm not speaking out of my ass, not because I'm thinking I'm super cool.

Average incomes around 45-50k PA.

But its still insane pricing with the AUD at 96 usc. Why would I ever buy from GW just to artifically inflate the profit it makes?

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Not seeing the mandrakes, Hellions, Ravager or Urien.

What gives???

necrongod wrote:except for the incubi! they look terrible!

Sarrazon wrote: My contribution to the "Make GW Realize That Xenos Releases Can Work" fund.

lords2001 wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Tunnel Rat wrote:What do you suspect they'll put in the new Battleforce set?.

Assuming there even is a new BattleForce, I'd suspect that it would have 10 Warriors, 10 Wyches, 1 Raider and 3 Reaver Jetbikes.

Battleforces are around 45-50 pounds.

I see that list as being a bit pricy for it, even though I would love it.

Warriors and Wyches @ 15 pounds each, and Raiders & box 'o Jetbikes @ 20 pounds each.

70 odd pounds value there. Though if they sold it at 45-50 pounds, I would buy it. IMMEDIATELY.

Scott_K wrote:The "female" hellion looks like it has Chaos Marauder arms.

Scott_K wrote:Still waiting for 360 degree pics of Lelith.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Scott_K wrote:The "female" hellion looks like it has Chaos Marauder arms.

I had to look again to check, I thought it was a man.

Also looking at the bikes, isn't £21 an odd price for a boxset?

Phototoxin wrote:Why pre-order now when we can wait until the 16th for part 2?

Also what's the estimate on a leaked codex? (not asking for it just wondering so I can plan!)

what's the estimate on a leaked codex?

Rymafyr wrote:Ok, now that makes up for the previous hellion pic...

Farmer wrote:

Archonate wrote:With the Hellions, I might have gone a different way with the board. I would have oriented them like snowboards/surfboards. I think that would make for more dynamic poses, indicating speed. The horizontal orientation of the feet looks awkward. You can't brace yourself against speed/inertia with your legs so positioned... I think that's what it is that bothers me about these models. Everything about them looks great, but the physics don't add up.

Plus Silver Surfer>Green Goblin anyway...

BrassScorpion wrote:

what's the estimate on a leaked codex?

Leaked Codex? The Black Boxes with a sample of the finished Codex should be in stores this week. That's not a leak, it's a deliberately planned preview by the publisher, GW.

Plus Silver Surfer>Green Goblin anyway...

Leaked codex means pdf document on the interwebz, not a preview in a store.

Gwar! wrote:

Archonate wrote:With the Hellions, I might have gone a different way with the board. I would have oriented them like snowboards/surfboards. I think that would make for more dynamic poses, indicating speed. The horizontal orientation of the feet looks awkward. You can't brace yourself against speed/inertia with your legs so positioned... I think that's what it is that bothers me about these models. Everything about them looks great, but the physics don't add up.

Plus Silver Surfer>Green Goblin anyway...

>Implying that a universe where ships descend into Hell to travel distances so fast that you can arrive before you leave has a need for Evil Space Elves to follow the "laws" of Physics (which even today we know are more guidelines than laws).

BrassScorpion wrote:

Leaked codex means pdf document on the interwebz, not a preview in a store.

Um, I understand that, but who needs a crap leaked PDF when they can look at the finished product? Besides, all those leaks and illegal copies have not exactly done much good for the relationship between GW and its customers. Why do you think, that lead time on previews has been cut so severely the past few years?

Gwar! wrote:Omg, Man Arms on a Man Body!

Because some of us are more than 50 miles away from the nearest hobby shop/lfgs and don't have access to those? Seriously, think about that for a moment.

Archonate wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Archonate wrote:With the Hellions, I might have gone a different way with the board. I would have oriented them like snowboards/surfboards. I think that would make for more dynamic poses, indicating speed. The horizontal orientation of the feet looks awkward. You can't brace yourself against speed/inertia with your legs so positioned... I think that's what it is that bothers me about these models. Everything about them looks great, but the physics don't add up.

Plus Silver Surfer>Green Goblin anyway...

>Implying that a universe where ships descend into Hell to travel distances so fast that you can arrive before you leave has a need for Evil Space Elves to follow the "laws" of Physics (which even today we know are more guidelines than laws).

It's really not that complicated. Try an experiment if you don't believe me. Stand on top of a car facing forward with your feet to the sides. Then have the driver suddenly go either forward or reverse. You will fall. Then position your feet front and back of you and you'll find it much easier to keep your balance.

UltraPrime wrote:

Phototoxin wrote:Why pre-order now when we can wait until the 16th for part 2?

Also what's the estimate on a leaked codex? (not asking for it just wondering so I can plan!)

First, why not? It's not like waiting will make a difference - what's on preorder now comes out on 6th, the next batch is released on the 20th.

Second, what a bizarre question. Do pirate-scum work to a schedule?

BrassScorpion wrote:

Because some of us are more than 50 miles away from the nearest hobby shop/lfgs and don't have access to those? Seriously, think about that for a moment.

I realize that too. That still does not make illegal copying okay, does it?

BrassScorpion wrote:

Leaked codex means pdf document on the interwebz, not a preview in a store.

D'uh. I understand that, but who needs a crap leaked PDF when they can look at the finished product? Besides, all those leaks and illegal copies have not exactly done much good for the relationship between GW and its customers. Why do you think the lead time on previews has been cut so severely the past few years? If you're asking for a link to an illegal copy here on Dakka then you're violating the rules of the forum, among other things.

evilsponge wrote:Don't take this the wrong way, but you sound like someone suffering from Stockholm syndrome

Archonate wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Archonate wrote:With the Hellions, I might have gone a different way with the board. I would have oriented them like snowboards/surfboards. I think that would make for more dynamic poses, indicating speed. The horizontal orientation of the feet looks awkward. You can't brace yourself against speed/inertia with your legs so positioned... I think that's what it is that bothers me about these models. Everything about them looks great, but the physics don't add up.

Plus Silver Surfer>Green Goblin anyway...

>Implying that a universe where ships descend into Hell to travel distances so fast that you can arrive before you leave has a need for Evil Space Elves to follow the "laws" of Physics (which even today we know are more guidelines than laws).

It's really not that complicated. Try an experiment if you don't believe me. Stand on top of a car facing forward with your feet to the sides. Then have the driver suddenly go either forward or reverse. You will fall. Then position your feet front and back of you and you'll find it much easier to keep your balance.

veritechc wrote:Take a second look at the models. The rider is chained to the board against inertia. Now if they need to stop suddenly that is a different thing. Apparently stopping isn't a option for a Dark Eldar, lol.

MajorTom11 wrote:For those who have seen the codex, was there any art in there of things not shown in (new) mini form yet? Talos etc?

Wiglaf wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:How come the Mandrake has no mouth?

According Jes original sketch, they have "shifting features, sometimes no mouth or eye, obscure by hair."

I guess some of the other models must have a mouth but are eyeless; it might represent the vast amount of warp energy flowing through their bodies and mutating them constantly, though not radically due to their natural resistance.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Wiglaf wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:How come the Mandrake has no mouth?

According Jes original sketch, they have "shifting features, sometimes no mouth or eye, obscure by hair."

I guess some of the other models must have a mouth but are eyeless; it might represent the vast amount of warp energy flowing through their bodies and mutating them constantly, though not radically due to their natural resistance.

Thank you, that is very helpful. I think that particular model would do better with a jagged mouth of sorts, but that's just my personal preference.

SaintHazard wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote: I think that particular model would do better with a jagged mouth of sorts, but that's just my personal preference.

So carve one out/paint one on!

If you can make it look sufficiently awesome, sky's the limit!

SaintHazard wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Wiglaf wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:How come the Mandrake has no mouth?

According Jes original sketch, they have "shifting features, sometimes no mouth or eye, obscure by hair."

I guess some of the other models must have a mouth but are eyeless; it might represent the vast amount of warp energy flowing through their bodies and mutating them constantly, though not radically due to their natural resistance.

Thank you, that is very helpful. I think that particular model would do better with a jagged mouth of sorts, but that's just my personal preference.

So carve one out/paint one on!

If you can make it look sufficiently awesome, sky's the limit!

airmang wrote:yes, the Hellions are plastic.

veritechc wrote:

Archonate wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Archonate wrote:With the Hellions, I might have gone a different way with the board. I would have oriented them like snowboards/surfboards. I think that would make for more dynamic poses, indicating speed. The horizontal orientation of the feet looks awkward. You can't brace yourself against speed/inertia with your legs so positioned... I think that's what it is that bothers me about these models. Everything about them looks great, but the physics don't add up.

Plus Silver Surfer>Green Goblin anyway...

>Implying that a universe where ships descend into Hell to travel distances so fast that you can arrive before you leave has a need for Evil Space Elves to follow the "laws" of Physics (which even today we know are more guidelines than laws).

It's really not that complicated. Try an experiment if you don't believe me. Stand on top of a car facing forward with your feet to the sides. Then have the driver suddenly go either forward or reverse. You will fall. Then position your feet front and back of you and you'll find it much easier to keep your balance.

Take a second look at the models. The rider is chained to the board against inertia. Now if they need to stop suddenly that is a different thing. Apparently stopping isn't a option for a Dark Eldar, lol.

Jes Goodwin wrote:
We wanted figures that could be assembled to look as if they were moving flat-out, their riders held on by the fine chain tethers that were a feature of the raider crew. As the models were primarily about the Hellions themselves we wanted to sculpt them physically, like the Warriors and Wyches, rather than digitally, as the Reavers were. Juan Diaz set about working out exactly how far he could push the 'dynamic' part of the brief, and we tried to work out how we could get physically representations of the boards at 3:1.

Jes Goodwin wrote:The finished designs were fully as dynamic as we had wanted, the addition of a new ball-ended flying stand allowed the boards to be tilted to emphasise the riders suitably wild positions.

necrongod wrote:is anyone liking the incubi? i know i hate the new ones but does anyone else have any feedback on the new incubi models?

necrongod wrote:i dont know they just dont seem as dark eldar. they seem more like they should be in the chaos codex. but thats just my opinion.

Munch Munch! wrote:I like the incubi, but I can't get over how big and ridonkulous the swords are.

Kirasu wrote:Is that just to pour salt in gary morleys wounds? I approve! there isnt enough salt to earn him redemption

Nvs wrote:I'm not a huge fan of them myself either. I wanted them to stick more to the evil striking scorpion feel. But then they make them metal too which really ruined them in my opinion.

narchy wrote:I know we all know what they look like, but here's a side-by-side comparison of the new and old models.

Kanluwen wrote:

Nvs wrote:I'm not a huge fan of them myself either. I wanted them to stick more to the evil striking scorpion feel. But then they make them metal too which really ruined them in my opinion.

Why in the name of all that's ridiculous would you want "evil" Striking Scorpions?

Striking Scorpions look like crap. They're also, for all intents and purposes, the antithesis of the Incubi(considering the Incubi were supposedly founded by "the Fallen Phoenix").

Dark Eldar shouldn't just be "spiky Eldar". And thankfully...they really haven't been, in the stuff that we've been shown.

necrongod wrote: except for the incubi. (yes i've said it too much but im gonna say it again) the older incubi, overall, were much cooler

kestral wrote: I find the 2 Urien wassissnames about the same.

necrongod wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Nvs wrote:I'm not a huge fan of them myself either. I wanted them to stick more to the evil striking scorpion feel. But then they make them metal too which really ruined them in my opinion.

Why in the name of all that's ridiculous would you want "evil" Striking Scorpions?

Striking Scorpions look like crap. They're also, for all intents and purposes, the antithesis of the Incubi(considering the Incubi were supposedly founded by "the Fallen Phoenix").

Dark Eldar shouldn't just be "spiky Eldar". And thankfully...they really haven't been, in the stuff that we've been shown.

actually the new warriors look a lot more like spiky Guardians.

necrongod wrote:actually the new warriors look a lot more like spikey gaurdians.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
ill prove my point





Automatically Appended Next Post:
well i couldnt find a pic on the web of the new warriors so just go to this link:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440160a&prodId=prod900151a

Kanluwen wrote:

necrongod wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Nvs wrote:I'm not a huge fan of them myself either. I wanted them to stick more to the evil striking scorpion feel. But then they make them metal too which really ruined them in my opinion.

Why in the name of all that's ridiculous would you want "evil" Striking Scorpions?

Striking Scorpions look like crap. They're also, for all intents and purposes, the antithesis of the Incubi(considering the Incubi were supposedly founded by "the Fallen Phoenix").

Dark Eldar shouldn't just be "spiky Eldar". And thankfully...they really haven't been, in the stuff that we've been shown.

actually the new warriors look a lot more like spiky Guardians.

We must be looking at two completely different things then.

The "vibe" given off by the Kabalite Warriors is more "bestial" than the "organic" feel of the Guardians.

With Guardians, their armor looks like it could just be a second skin. With the Kabalite Warriors? It's obviously armor plating.

necrongod wrote:look at the shoulderpads!

necrongod wrote:aaaaaaaaaaak! someone agree with me already!

necrongod wrote:aaaaaaaaaaak! someone agree with me already!

necrongod wrote:aaaaaaaaaaak! someone agree with me already!

necrongod wrote:aaaaaaaaaaak! someone agree with me already!

necrongod wrote:well maybe i just have really good eyes

Archonate wrote:The more I look at the new Urien model, the less I like it. It's a Gary Morley throwback.
So many annoying questions about this model: Why he is trying to be Fabius Bile? Why is he floating? Why is he floating above Tyranid worms? Of all the arms he could have grafted onto himself, why did he choose useless looking, three-fingered zombie arms?

Locephax wrote:Some Urien fluff: his presence is a great honour for the kabals/cults that accompany him on raids. He has died many times, but he regenerates. It is now to the point where he likes to try interesting ways of dying. But for some reason, each time he regenerates, he keeps bits of his old body - that's why he has like 5 spines and 7+ arms. He is one crazy bastard. The haemonculi built a big fancy tower out of living tissue and it is like an academy. They have even trained Fabius Bile there (Urien was interested in his experiments). He can make the small constructs troops, and he can give grotesques S6 instead of their usual S5 for 5 points each. He regenerates one wound a turn but cannot exceed the max.

LunaHound wrote:

necrongod wrote:aaaaaaaaaaak! someone agree with me already!

I do agree with you , but its like describing what color looks like to someone born blind. Personally i dont have such talent.

Kanluwen wrote:[
Of course you agree with him. He's disagreeing with me.

necrongod wrote:ok so heres my reasoning behind this whole debate: things that look alike are the helmets and the shoulder pads

puma713 wrote:

Archonate wrote:The more I look at the new Urien model, the less I like it. It's a Gary Morley throwback.
So many annoying questions about this model: Why he is trying to be Fabius Bile? Why is he floating? Why is he floating above Tyranid worms? Of all the arms he could have grafted onto himself, why did he choose useless looking, three-fingered zombie arms?

From the guy posting all the info over at BoLS:

Locephax wrote:Some Urien fluff: his presence is a great honour for the kabals/cults that accompany him on raids. He has died many times, but he regenerates. It is now to the point where he likes to try interesting ways of dying. But for some reason, each time he regenerates, he keeps bits of his old body - that's why he has like 5 spines and 7+ arms. He is one crazy bastard. The haemonculi built a big fancy tower out of living tissue and it is like an academy. They have even trained Fabius Bile there (Urien was interested in his experiments). He can make the small constructs troops, and he can give grotesques S6 instead of their usual S5 for 5 points each. He regenerates one wound a turn but cannot exceed the max.

LunaHound wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Of course you agree with him. He's disagreeing with me.

That's not how it works.

LunaHound wrote:

necrongod wrote:ok so here's my reasoning behind this whole debate: things that look alike are the helmets and the shoulder pads

I'll test to see if what we are seeing are the same thing.

LunaHound wrote:
Are you saying despite the sharp ends of the armors , the spikes , and overlapping plates of armor ,the aesthetic of which the design "flows"
it still organic and smooth in its origin?

Just more spiky? Like how a shrimp has its exoskeleton(shrimp don't have shells, they have exoskeletons),right?

If yes , then that's why I agree with you. Eldar with sharp ends and spikes.aka spiky eldar (sort of)

Also for example (the shoulder) the flow of it is very much like the WIP Eldar Phantom Titan isn't it?

puma713 wrote:The second one looks like a kinda chunky guy dressing up as Batman for Halloween. Like Carl from Aqua Teen.

Kanluwen wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Of course you agree with him. He's disagreeing with me.

That's not how it works.

Seemed like it, given all you did was take a potshot at me.
What the feth are you talking about?

LunaHound wrote:

necrongod wrote:ok so here's my reasoning behind this whole debate: things that look alike are the helmets and the shoulder pads

I'll test to see if what we are seeing are the same thing.

Well, let's have it then!

LunaHound wrote:
Are you saying despite the sharp ends of the armors , the spikes , and overlapping plates of armor ,the aesthetic of which the design "flows"
it still organic and smooth in its origin?

The fact that the Dark Eldar armor has sharp ends, spikes welded/bolted on(mostly on the pauldrons, with a few serrated blades on other parts), and overlapping plates makes the aesthetic of the design different between the two races.

Just more spiky? Like how a shrimp has its exoskeleton(shrimp don't have shells, they have exoskeletons),right?

Dark Eldar armor isn't even really that spiky. It's just very angular, as opposed to the smooth, rounded lines you see on their Craftworld cousins.
And with this , is how i know you arnt able to see the flow of a design.

If yes , then that's why I agree with you. Eldar with sharp ends and spikes.aka spiky eldar (sort of)

My, what an in-depth analysis.
Sharp ends and spikes! Critics look out, we've got descriptive language going here!
Mockery aside:
If you wish to discuss anything with me and want me to not just ignore you , leave the mockery out.
The "sharp ends" are what set the Dark Eldar apart from the Eldar. The armor just screams "brutal".
Who ever is disagreeing it doesnt look brutal? Its still just a spiky armor that originated from the same flow as craft world Eldar;s
To give a better example...compare these two Batsuits from the Batman continuity.
This is Jean-Paul Valley's Batsuit. It reflected him pretty well, as he was a brutal man who gave up the idea of agility in favor of being able to wade into the thick of it.
Now, compare that to Dick Grayson's Batsuit.
Grayson's Batsuit is pretty normal, patterned after Bruce's. It looks organic, and retains freedom of movement for the wearer.

The two are very different, despite retaining the same cowl, now aren't they?
Thats funny , because if you leave the bat ears out , no one will be able to tell who the first guy is.
The only essence of batman he retained was the bat ears , not a good example.

That's what I'm seeing in the difference between the Craftworld Eldar/Dark Eldar. Craftworld Eldar emphasize their form, highlighting the lithe and nimble form they've got.
Dark Eldar enhance their form, bulking themselves out to look more imposing.
I dont see Dark Eldar bulking or enhancing themselves. I see the same flow and essence of craft Eldar ( say Guardians or Dire Avengers )
with the flow of the sculpt materializing into sharp ends. Hence why i said , spiky eldars. Did i say its a bad thing that they are similar? Nope , thats the point... they are originally Eldars.

Also for example (the shoulder) the flow of it is very much like the WIP Eldar Phantom Titan isn't it?

If you're referring to the Craftworld Eldar, then yes the flow is very similar.
Even the angular vanes and plating on the Craftworld Titans are softened, and made to look more..."graceful" for lack of a better word. They retain a kind of "hard nobility" if you will.

Necroman wrote:How does overlapping plates=spikey?

a sharp-pointed piece of metal set with the point outward, as on a weapon.

LunaHound wrote:

Necroman wrote:How does overlapping plates=spikey?

a sharp-pointed piece of metal set with the point outward, as on a weapon.

See the Wyche's knee armor and thigh armor , i guarantee if something metal like that hits you upwards , it'll carve a wide gash into flesh.
Like i mentioned earlier , like a shrimp!

Necroman wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Necroman wrote:How does overlapping plates=spikey?

a sharp-pointed piece of metal set with the point outward, as on a weapon.

See the Wyche's knee armor and thigh armor , i guarantee if something metal like that hits you upwards , it'll carve a wide gash into flesh.
Like i mentioned earlier , like a shrimp!

Seriously, how does overlapping=spikey? I'm asking because people bring up the overlapping is a difference between the DE armor and the Eldar armor, yet others just dismiss it as "spikey."

Is this spikey?


No. Just because the overlapping plates happen to be angular on the DE does not mean they are just "spikes."

LunaHound wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Of course you agree with him. He's disagreeing with me.

That's not how it works.

Seemed like it, given all you did was take a potshot at me.
What the feth are you talking about?

LunaHound wrote:

necrongod wrote:ok so here's my reasoning behind this whole debate: things that look alike are the helmets and the shoulder pads

I'll test to see if what we are seeing are the same thing.

Well, let's have it then!

LunaHound wrote:
Are you saying despite the sharp ends of the armors , the spikes , and overlapping plates of armor ,the aesthetic of which the design "flows"
it still organic and smooth in its origin?

The fact that the Dark Eldar armor has sharp ends, spikes welded/bolted on(mostly on the pauldrons, with a few serrated blades on other parts), and overlapping plates makes the aesthetic of the design different between the two races.

Just more spiky? Like how a shrimp has its exoskeleton(shrimp don't have shells, they have exoskeletons),right?

Dark Eldar armor isn't even really that spiky. It's just very angular, as opposed to the smooth, rounded lines you see on their Craftworld cousins.
And with this , is how i know you aren't able to see the flow of a design.

LunaHound wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

LunaHound wrote:
If yes , then that's why I agree with you. Eldar with sharp ends and spikes.aka spiky eldar (sort of)

My, what an in-depth analysis.
Sharp ends and spikes! Critics look out, we've got descriptive language going here!
Mockery aside:

If you wish to discuss anything with me and want me to not just ignore you , leave the mockery out.

LunaHound wrote:

The "sharp ends" are what set the Dark Eldar apart from the Eldar. The armor just screams "brutal".

Who ever is disagreeing it doesnt look brutal? Its still just a spiky armor that originated from the same flow as Craftworld Eldar

LunaHound wrote:

To give a better example...compare these two Batsuits from the Batman continuity.
This is Jean-Paul Valley's Batsuit. It reflected him pretty well, as he was a brutal man who gave up the idea of agility in favor of being able to wade into the thick of it.
Now, compare that to Dick Grayson's Batsuit.
Grayson's Batsuit is pretty normal, patterned after Bruce's. It looks organic, and retains freedom of movement for the wearer.

The two are very different, despite retaining the same cowl, now aren't they?

That's funny , because if you leave the bat ears out , no one will be able to tell who the first guy is.
The only essence of batman he retained was the bat ears , not a good example.

LunaHound wrote:

That's what I'm seeing in the difference between the Craftworld Eldar/Dark Eldar. Craftworld Eldar emphasize their form, highlighting the lithe and nimble form they've got.
Dark Eldar enhance their form, bulking themselves out to look more imposing.

I don't see Dark Eldar bulking or enhancing themselves. I see the same flow and essence of craft Eldar ( say Guardians or Dire Avengers )
with the flow of the sculpt materializing into sharp ends. Hence why I said ,spiky Eldar. Did I say its a bad thing that they are similar? Nope , that's the point... they are originally Eldar.

LunaHound wrote:

Also for example (the shoulder) the flow of it is very much like the WIP Eldar Phantom Titan isn't it?

If you're referring to the Craftworld Eldar, then yes the flow is very similar.
Even the angular vanes and plating on the Craftworld Titans are softened, and made to look more..."graceful" for lack of a better word. They retain a kind of "hard nobility" if you will.
I only know 1 Phantom Titan that is WIP atm , which is the one shown in GD

Example #2 , can you explain to me why on the DE warriors , their lone shoulder spike is on their right shoulder
while the Wyches they are mostly on the left?

Kanluwen wrote:You know precisely what I'm talking about, as it's your "trademark" to try to sneak insults in then feign innocence afterwards.

puma713 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I could get you armadillo, HB. They show up in my yard all the time.

Possums and raccoons too. Filthy beasts.

LunaHound wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:You know precisely what I'm talking about, as it's your "trademark" to try to sneak insults in then feign innocence afterwards.

Funny , isnt that what you do best? Treat others that doesnt agree with you as if they are garbage and your words are god's?
Constant condescending tones and insults heaven knows how many times you broke #1 rule , the moment someone retorts back ( me ) you go off crying to your mod friends?


I have enough of your BS , as of now our discussion ends. Im sick of your constant attacks and your immunity to discipline.

If im ever guilty of anything in the past , then i am for sure guilty of copying your action and redirecting it back to yourself so you know how it feels, and how your victims felt.

And once again in a thread you insist turning a stupid discussion into something petty between us. Not falling for it this time , takes 2 to dance ? says frazzled?

Well go dance with yourself now.

LunaHound wrote:Super , this is what artistic perception is.

Gwar! wrote:I AM TWELVE AND WHAT IS THIS!!!

* Flyers:
4 types of missiles, range 48"
1) S6 AP5 Blast 5"
2) S7 AP- Blast 5", reroll to wound
3) SX AP5 Blast 5", Poison 2+, Pinning
4) AP2 Blast 3", Test on initial Wounds or dead, cover and invulnerable saves allowed

Razorwing: 10/10/10
has 4 missiles of type 1), can upgrade to type 2) and 3)
Bomber: 11/11/10
can take upt to 4 missiles of any type
Type 4) costs the same as 3 Firewarriors
Has one Void Mine: S9 AP2 Blast 5", Lance, dropped on model underneath, D6" scatter

* Haemonculi can also take a huskblade
* Warriors don't have plasma greandes, but sybarite can take grenade launcher for 2 fire warriors which gives offensive and defensive grenades to the whole squad
* Trueborns can exchange their rifle for ccw and pistol for free or carbine for halb a firewarrior, can take plasma grenades for one point each. 4 Trueborn can take special weapons and 2 heavy weapons
* every third elite waych can take a wych weapon
* Incubi can't take plasma grenades or grenade launcher
* Groteques can take a champion, which can take some special ccw, but nothing which ignores armour, Wracks can also take a champion which can take an agonizer
* there is absolutely no way to give mandrakes a pain point without sacrificing their infiltration
* the combat drugs effects are: +1 A, +1 S, +1 WS, max out of 3D6 for running, reroll to wound in close combat, free Pain Token
* beastmasters don't have combat drugs and they are Beasts instead of Jump Troops
* Hellions have Fleet, Reavers have not
* Mandrakes have only 1 ccw, so only three attacks during an assault and 2 thereafter
* Jetbike fly-by-attack only works against one single unit even if there were several units on the path of the jetbikes. For determination wether an unit was under the jetbikes path or not you don't look at the actual path. You take the starting point and end point of the movement and draw a line.
* most squad champions can take ghostarmour (4+ and 6++) except wyches
* if there is a portal, even deepstriking or outflanking reserves can enter via the portal
* Talos is 10 Firewarriors with D6 attacks, for 1.5 Firewarrior it can take an additional ccw. For 0.5 firewarriors it can be upgraded with the Instant Death special rule or a special close combat weapon, that allows it to roll 2D6 for its attacks and pick the highest
* Talos is equipped with twin-linked splinter cannon, can be upgraded to twin-linked blaster, twin-linked heat lance and another weapon that i have forgotten
* Both Talos and the Cronos have the Power from Pain rule, so they can get FnP and FC (S8 Talos on the charge)
* Reaver, Talos and Chronos have the Move through Cover USR
* Groteques can get a raider, Wracks can get raider or venom
* Talos is 5/3/7/7/3/4or5/D6/3+ and Cronos is 3/3/5/7/3/4or5/2/3+
* when the Cronos kills a model in cc, a unit in 12" gets a Pain Token. Can change this weapon against one of the following weapons, that also gives a Pain Token upon wounding:
Flame S4 DS 3 Assault or 18" S3 DS3 Assault Blast 5"
* the entry of the Inccubi is virtually the same as an aspect warrior entry: 5-10 warrior, exarch/klavex upgrade, 2 weapon options for klavex and 2 powers
* the Preferred enemy power only works for the Klavex
* Drazahr makes a unit Inccubis Fearless

* vehicle upgrades:
for 1 firewarrior each: nightfield, 5++ and Deep Strike
for 1/2 firewarrior each:
- if the raider moves over a unit it gets D3+1 hits with S4
- 2D6" extra movement
- enemy unit in 6" get -1 on thei Ld, must take a Ld if they try to assault the vehicle
- friendly units in 12" can reroll their moraletest
- raider can tankshot, if it rams it gets +D3 on its front armour
- for every 1 on a close combat to hit roll against the vehicle the unit gets a S4 hit
- splinter rifles and pistols (but no cannons) can reroll failed to hit rolls when shooting from the raider

* Flyers:
4 types of missiles, range 48"
1) S6 AP5 Blast 5"
2) S7 AP- Blast 5", reroll to wound
3) SX AP5 Blast 5", Poison 2+, Pinning
4) AP2 Blast 3", Test on initial Wounds or dead, cover and invulnerable saves allowed

Razorwing: 10/10/10
has 4 missiles of type 1), can upgrade to type 2) and 3)
Bomber: 11/11/10
can take upt to 4 missiles of any type
Type 4) costs 30 points
Has one Void Mine: S9 AP2 Blast 5", Lance, dropped on model underneath, D6" scatter

* Haemonculi can also take a huskblade
* Warriors don't have plasma greandes, but sybarite can take grenade launcher for 20 points which gives offensive and defensive grenades to the whole squad
* Trueborns can exchange their rifle for ccw and pistol for free or carbine for 5 points, can take plasma grenades for one point each. 4 Trueborn can take special weapons and 2 heavy weapons
* every third elite waych can take a wych weapon
* Incubi can't take plasma grenades or grenade launcher
* Groteques can take a champion, which can take some special ccw, but nothing which ignores armour, Wracks can also take a champion which can take an agonizer
* there is absolutely no way to give mandrakes a pain point without sacrificing their infiltration
* the combat drugs effects are: +1 A, +1 S, +1 WS, max out of 3D6 for running, reroll to wound in close combat, free Pain Token
* beastmasters don't have combat drugs and they are Beasts instead of Jump Troops
* Hellions have Fleet, Reavers have not
* Mandrakes have only 1 ccw, so only three attacks during an assault and 2 thereafter
* Jetbike fly-by-attack only works against one single unit even if there were several units on the path of the jetbikes. For determination wether an unit was under the jetbikes path or not you don't look at the actual path. You take the starting point and end point of the movement and draw a line.
* most squad champions can take ghostarmour (4+ and 6++) except wyches
* if there is a portal, even deepstriking or outflanking reserves can enter via the portal
* Talos is 100 points with D6 attacks, for 15 points it can take an additional ccw. For 5 points it can be upgraded with the Instant Death special rule or a special close combat weapon, that allows it to roll 2D6 for its attacks and pick the highest
* Talos is equipped with twin-linked splinter cannon, can be upgraded to twin-linked blaster, twin-linked heat lance and another weapon that i have forgotten
* Both Talos and the Cronos have the Power from Pain rule, so they can get FnP and FC (S8 Talos on the charge)
* Reaver, Talos and Chronos have the Move through Cover USR
* Groteques can get a raider, Wracks can get raider or venom
* Talos is 5/3/7/7/3/4or5/D6/3+ and Cronos is 3/3/5/7/3/4or5/2/3+
* when the Cronos kills a model in cc, a unit in 12" gets a Pain Token. Can change this weapon against one of the following weapons, that also gives a Pain Token upon wounding:
Flame S4 DS 3 Assault or 18" S3 DS3 Assault Blast 5"
* the entry of the Inccubi is virtually the same as an aspect warrior entry: 5-10 warrior, exarch/klavex upgrade, 2 weapon options for klavex and 2 powers
* the Preferred enemy power only works for the Klavex
* Drazahr makes a unit Inccubis Fearless

* vehicle upgrades:
for 10 points each: nightfield, 5++ and Deep Strike
for 5 points each:
- if the raider moves over a unit it gets D3+1 hits with S4
- 2D6" extra movement
- enemy unit in 6" get -1 on thei Ld, must take a Ld if they try to assault the vehicle
- friendly units in 12" can reroll their moraletest
- raider can tankshot, if it rams it gets +D3 on its front armour
- for every 1 on a close combat to hit roll against the vehicle the unit gets a S4 hit
- splinter rifles and pistols (but no cannons) can reroll failed to hit rolls when shooting from the raider

Destrado wrote:Is it me, or you people could, hum, take the prawns, artistic whatnot and stuff like that to a different section of the forum? It's all fun and dandy but the "quote and image reposts" are getting tiresome.

Plus, when in doubt regarding the DEldar, try to go to www.games-workshop.com . There's a wonderful chap called Jes Goodwin who's had a series of articles dedicated to how he created the dark kin. Let's try and leave this topic to the former discussion, lest the mods close it altogether.

puma713 wrote:

Jes Goodwin wrote:The finished designs were fully as dynamic as we had wanted, the addition of a new ball-ended flying stand allowed the boards to be tilted to emphasise the riders suitably wild positions.

Hope everything will be moving to these new ball-end flight sticks.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

puma713 wrote:

Jes Goodwin wrote:The finished designs were fully as dynamic as we had wanted, the addition of a new ball-ended flying stand allowed the boards to be tilted to emphasise the riders suitably wild positions.

Hope everything will be moving to these new ball-end flight sticks.

I wonder if these are the same "new" ball-end flight stands that the 3E Landspeeder used to come with...

Gwar! wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

puma713 wrote:

Jes Goodwin wrote:The finished designs were fully as dynamic as we had wanted, the addition of a new ball-ended flying stand allowed the boards to be tilted to emphasise the riders suitably wild positions.

Hope everything will be moving to these new ball-end flight sticks.

I wonder if these are the same "new" ball-end flight stands that the 3E Landspeeder used to come with...

Yes, most likely.

Cardinal Xaphan wrote:I really like the evil, Chaotic feel to the new DE models and also how they still have the Eldar styling to them. The models really reflect Eldar fallen to Chaos.

Klawz wrote:

Cardinal Xaphan wrote:I really like the evil, Chaotic feel to the new DE models and also how they still have the Eldar styling to them. The models really reflect Eldar fallen to Chaos.

But they haven't fallen to chaos....

Farmer wrote:

Klawz wrote:

Cardinal Xaphan wrote:I really like the evil, Chaotic feel to the new DE models and also how they still have the Eldar styling to them. The models really reflect Eldar fallen to Chaos.

But they haven't fallen to chaos....

Actually in a way they have, but don't want to admit it.

Klawz wrote:

Farmer wrote:

Klawz wrote:

Cardinal Xaphan wrote:I really like the evil, Chaotic feel to the new DE models and also how they still have the Eldar styling to them. The models really reflect Eldar fallen to Chaos.

But they haven't fallen to chaos....

Actually in a way they have, but don't want to admit it.

Well, they're not growing tentecles or anytihng like that...

MajorTom11 wrote:This is the Dark Eldar thread, not the Dark Eldar rules thread. How does it not make sense to discuss the models and aesthetics here??? You can't expect these kinds of threads to stay concise, too many people are interested and want to discuss. Is it still N&R? Yes, as it is being updated with new pics and info regularly... It's a forum, not a blog.

bramgaunt wrote:

Well, while Frgt/10 provided you with all the info, I thought some Artwork would be apreciated.

Drazhar: http://www.pixup.org/bilder/2503/a012G8KGP.jpg

Decapitator: http://www.pixup.org/bilder/2504/a013MVNNN.jpg

Hellionlord whatever'hisnames: http://www.pixup.org/bilder/2505/a0143RIGZ.jpg

Razorwing (?) : http://www.pixup.org/bilder/2506/a0153V01P.jpg

Venom, a bit blurry... : http://www.pixup.org/bilder/2507/a016HEZG8.jpg

Talos: http://www.pixup.org/bilder/2508/a01718FW8.jpg

Scourges: http://www.pixup.org/bilder/2509/a019ZQZTH.jpg

Yes, they are big. No, I won't scale them down. Deal with it. [/quote=bramgaunt]

From warseer, courtesy of... great stuff