10093
Post by: Sidstyler
BrookM wrote:I'm surprised there was no propaganda post on the GW site yesterday. Which makes me think that they had one prepared ("Our glorious product conquers all hearts, what was your first model?") but with the massive backlash decided to scrap it and instead keep it quiet.
Yeah, I was really hopeful there would have been a post on What's New Today about it, or maybe something on Facebook...something, anything addressing this obvious issue. I would have had a little more respect for GW if they actually addressed our concerns and at least told us they were solving the problem, but hell, you wouldn't even know there was one.
realgenius wrote:Eilif wrote:At this point AFAIK, Fincast shippments to FLGS are limited (I believe Mikaila said something to this effect).
I've also heard that FC shipments are limited to three and my FLGS didn't have more than three of anything that I noticed.
I picked up a Finecast Dante and was quite happy with the quality. Clean up on the resin is a snap, especially compared to all those small vent worms on metal models.
Yeah, I thought the Finecast Dante looked pretty cool in person, too. I bought one a while back and painted it up for my brother, and it was kinda hard to resist buying another one for myself. 
EDIT: A metal one, I mean. When I saw the Finecast one I wanted to buy it again.
brother_zach wrote:What I do see as a good thing are the orc bosses on dragons. Its great to see them in such a ligther material that doesen't require a lifetime of assembly.
Bad thing is Azhag is still $90. Can I get a "lolwut"?
army310 wrote:carmachu wrote:army310 wrote:
I think all the bad press is coming from PP or something
Do you realize how stupid that sounds? I mean, really? PP had their response to finecast and other GW stupidity, faking problems isnt it.
No but if you quote dont quote like fox news, quote the hole thing.
It wouldn't have made a difference, it would have sounded just as stupid.
BTW, if you want your proof of a price rise, check out the GW website right now. The US one has the new prices and warriors/wyches are $29 now. Among other increases, obviously, but DE are the only army I care about right now so that's all I've looked at.
winterdyne wrote:Here's an update - I sent a link to my blog over to the Customer Services guys at GW. Anyway, I'm being sent a new Captain Stern. No argument, just a shipping notification, nice and efficient. Big kudos to Customer Services.
So, it seems that GW Customer Services also agree this level of fixing is not really acceptable for a premium product. Let's see if the replacement is up to par.
Cool.
As far as people wanting primed pictures, I could try, but it would be Friday by the earliest before I could actually get pics up. But I have to admit, the idea of playing a "guess which is which!" game is kind of fun.
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Post by: Grimtuff
Lord Scythican wrote:evilsponge wrote:Photographing bare models is are always going to be biased towards the finecast miniatures. Metal's very natures makes it hard to capture the details of a model.
And I have seen this posted several times and still we keep seeing bare models posted. I think I have already mentioned that I would like to see a finecast and a resin one both painted the same flat colour for a comparison. I guess I am going to have to go and buy a finecast and do it myself.
The Warhammer Forum has this:
Which Caradryan is Finecast then?
BTW
The lack of forehead rune on one is to the the angle of the shot, as clarified by a post from the OP on TWF
Since you brought it up, I will clarify that the rune on the forehead actually looks about the same in both models, the model on the left is just at the wrong angle to the light to capture it. I think viewers should ignore the forehead rune.
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Post by: Waaagh_Gonads
From the same poster on the Warhammer forums.
Shut in a model case on a sunny day (33 C) with windows up in the car.
Oh dear...
Towards the end of the page:
http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=87310&start=270
Where I live in Australia most of summer is above 33 degrees during the day. I know a shut car is much hotter, but I do get around in a car...
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Post by: Vandil
Waaagh_Gonads wrote:From the same poster on the Warhammer forums.
Shut in a model case on a sunny day (33 C) with windows up in the car.
Oh dear...
Towards the end of the page:
http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=87310&start=270
Where I live in Australia most of summer is above 33 degrees during the day. I know a shut car is much hotter, but I do get around in a car...
91F isn't uncommon in most of the world! I'd say that's low by a few degrees for the average summer day time temp here. That would be a pain to fix after being painted.
That's ok though because GW is offering a new premium mini case for finecast.
10093
Post by: Sidstyler
Ugh, I just sat down to clean up a Finecast incubi...I grabbed a random model out of the box and went to work, and already my overall positive view on these particular models is starting to change. There were a lot more defects than what was readily apparent, and I even got a bit of the mold on this one. So that's two models out of five that are going to need quite a bit of GS work.
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Post by: RiTides
Ah, I couldn't tell which was which  . Honestly, I think it'd be more apparent on a larger model... say, the Carnosaur or Shaggoth, but I can't afford a finecast one to compare to atm!
Sidstyler, for some reason my opinion went up of the material once I actually assembled my model- it assembles really, really easily. I did notice more of the small defects like you have (some small pitting and air bubbles I missed the first time) but I guess that's just going to be something we'll have to deal with... or maybe the QC will improve.
Honestly, I'd never worked with resin and was a bit worried about doing so. Seems to be pretty easy, though... and no, I'm not going to leave it in the car (but then I never do anymore, anyway).
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Post by: CunningB
Sidstyler wrote:Ugh, I just sat down to clean up a Finecast incubi...I grabbed a random model out of the box and went to work, and already my overall positive view on these particular models is starting to change. There were a lot more defects than what was readily apparent, and I even got a bit of the mold on this one. So that's two models out of five that are going to need quite a bit of GS work.
That pretty much sums up my experience too, bought the skaven warlord, check in the store packed as much as I could all looked good, got home unpacked and initial clean was fine, then went on to start scraping a few mould lines and started to notice more and more defects, little bubbles being the main problem. Its not loads and a little greenstuff will bring it back upto par but it's way more of a pain then snipping a few worms off the metals and almost as time consuming as pinning >.>
So basically you pay more for a lighter model with the same detail and work needed *sigh*
Still if the fix the casting it might just about be an improvement.
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Post by: Flashman
Lol, it's quite hard to tell those two Caradryans apart. This is like comparing DVD to Blueray on a normal TV.
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Post by: Lord Scythican
Flashman wrote:Lol, it's quite hard to tell those two Caradryans apart. This is like comparing DVD to Blueray on a normal TV.
Well if I had to make a bet, I would say the one on the right is the finecast model. Yeah it is for sure.
With that said, the lighting could be making all the difference in the world. If someone decides to do another comparison, try to have them positioned in the exact spot. For example, set up your white paper and trace the base onto the paper with a pencil. Take a picture and then take another with the exact same settings. If you want me to combine them into one photo, just send me the pics.
The reason why I say this, is because the level of detail on the metal model (the left one) looks superior due to the position of the light source casting a deeper shadow. If anyone wants to take bets against me, I am open to it, but I am 99% sure the Finecast is the one on the right.
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Post by: Avariel
I think the finecast one is the one on the right also.
Finecast seems to have a lot of problems beyond the current production issues with miscasts and bubbles that its hard to judge how widespread they are. Those they can fix with better quality control and experience I would hope.
1. fails the hot car test. (the warped figure in the picture above)
2. fails the young gamer test. (young gamers tend to put their figures in shoeboxes <shudder> and are the most prone to dropping them)
3. fails the easily safe to work with test (have to wear mask as precaution when working with resin as inhalation of the dust is quite bad for you)
4. fails the cost effective test. (It costs more since they take longer to make.)
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Post by: NAVARRO
I'm wondering here, if the quality controll was not that good if it will be any better with the replacements shipped... Theres a good possibility the replacements will also have the same issues.
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Post by: aka_mythos
Avariel wrote:
1. fails the hot car test. (the warped figure in the picture above.)
So does most forgeworld pieces. So really is this anything new or unexpected? Durability was never a selling point of their new material.
Avariel wrote:
2. fails the young gamer test. (young gamers tend to put their figures in shoeboxes <shudder> and are the most prone to dropping them.)
I've seen young gamers chip models that were coated with significant amounts of protective varnish... does that mean GW's paints are defective? Accidents happen, at least with their lower weight they don't shatter at superglued joints.
Avariel wrote:
3. fails the easily safe to work with test (have to wear mask as precaution when working with resin as inhalation of the dust is quite bad for you.)
First GW claims you don't need any respiration and was given UK certification to that end... the precautions taken in general are not because of the resin content, but because any fine dust, even ultra-fine sand, can cause certain issues. Metal filings if fine enough are just as bad. Some times being precautious is being overly cautious.
Avariel wrote:
4. fails the cost effective test. (It costs more since they take longer to make.)
Can't argue this one; it costs what it costs but is probably cheaper than if they stuck to white metal alloys.
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Post by: filbert
aka_mythos wrote: Avariel wrote:
4. fails the cost effective test. (It costs more since they take longer to make.)
Can't argue this one; it costs what it costs but is probably cheaper than if they stuck to white metal alloys.
How do you figure that one? GW by their own admission, have claimed it is a cheaper and more cost-effective method of production as well as being a cheaper raw material, yet the actual models are more expensive, in most cases, than their metal counterparts were...
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Post by: Samus_aran115
oh man..... Raptors in resin.... Ones that don't tip over at the slightest nudge.... do wantttt.
I'll bite, GW. Thank you. Oh, and plague marines in resin too. Hmm..... No, I don't want that, thanks.
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Post by: aka_mythos
NAVARRO wrote:I'm wondering here, if the quality controll was not that good if it will be any better with the replacements shipped... Theres a good possibility the replacements will also have the same issues.
Having worked in a manufacturing setting here is my take on GW's QC problem... in any given month GW releases 4 maybe 5 new blisters and manufactures replacement stock for whatever ones are getting low... they probably have a handful of workers in their QC department, maybe 3 or 4, specifically tasked with looking at the metal miniatures being produced. This month GW released ~130 blisters and sets of Finecraft on top of any restocking of still metal sets... and guess what?-It was likely those same 3 or 4 people inspecting all these releases... maybe they brought on temps or moved some people around temporarily to aid with the volume, but they're probably not used to this job. Needless to say now that they've rolled out the vast majority of these, the proper QC people can spend more time per model during inspection. The QC problem is really a volume problem, not a true quality issue. This isn't a unique issue, it happens with other companies all the time.
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Post by: loki old fart
Why are you guys saying, you think it's the right hand mini.
When the owner of the mini's has already said as much on the other forum.
Before it was posted on here. 
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Post by: aka_mythos
filbert wrote:aka_mythos wrote:
Avariel wrote:
4. fails the cost effective test. (It costs more since they take longer to make.)
Can't argue this one; it costs what it costs but is probably cheaper than if they stuck to white metal alloys.
How do you figure that one? GW by their own admission, have claimed it is a cheaper and more cost-effective method of production as well as being a cheaper raw material, yet the actual models are more expensive, in most cases, than their metal counterparts were...
Once again if you look at GW prices and their financial records from their investors page you can see they markup their products 400% over cost of manufacturing to maintain a 9.5% profit. That means $1 worth of tin in the white metal has to sell for $4... well tin went up by 60%. So $1 of tin now had to sell for $6.4.... but rather than bump their model from $4 to $6.40, they went for an option that was $5 and provided a modest improvement in casting quality.
This price increase would have happened no matter what. It is the end result of the financial concept of alternative cost... where by GW saw the cost of doing nothing was too high. It was either do nothing and see a 23~24% increase to keep using metal because of the price of tin or see a 15~19% increase by shifting to a resin-plastic mixture, with some quality improvements. Automatically Appended Next Post: loki old fart wrote:Why are you guys saying, you think it's the right hand mini.
When the owner of the mini's has already said as much on the other forum.
Before it was posted on here.
Not everyone read the other forum's page and the guy who posted here posed the question to people on this forum.
18410
Post by: filbert
aka_mythos wrote:Once again if you look at GW prices and their financial records from their investors page you can see they markup their products 400% over cost of manufacturing to maintain a 9.5% profit. That means $1 worth of tin in the white metal has to sell for $4... well tin went up by 60%. So $1 of tin now had to sell for $6.4.... but rather than bump their model from $4 to $6.40, they went for an option that was $5 and provided a modest improvement in casting quality.
This price increase would have happened no matter what. It is the end result of the financial concept of alternative cost... where by GW saw the cost of doing nothing was too high. It was either do nothing and see a 23~24% increase to keep using metal because of the price of tin or see a 15~19% increase by shifting to a resin-plastic mixture, with some quality improvements.
So GW have done all this to keep prices low and to cut their loyal customers some slack? Wow, someone should tell PP and all those other manufacturer's who still use white metal - they must be losing a fortune!
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Post by: Lord Scythican
aka_mythos wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
loki old fart wrote:Why are you guys saying, you think it's the right hand mini.
When the owner of the mini's has already said as much on the other forum.
Before it was posted on here.
Not everyone read the other forum's page and the guy who posted here posed the question to people on this forum.
I bet you read the last page of a novel before the first page don't you loki old fart?
I didn't read the other forum because if I just wanted the answer, I wouldn't have even bothered guessing.
Now for the reasons why I think it is the right one:
The one on the right has the same hair sticking out of the top of the staff that the pic with the heat bent staff has. In addition, the one on the right has a mold line at the bottom of the staff that is just like the picture of the one that has been heat bent. The one of the left doesn't.
However the one on the left looks like it has better detail, but that is because of the shadow depth on the details due to it being in a different position and closer to the light source.
19754
Post by: puma713
BrassScorpion wrote:olympia wrote:puma713 wrote:Wow, an Ork Big Mek costs nearly as much as 3 Killa Kans? The price change doesn't really hit you until you look at something you actually may want to buy.
Seriously? That's f***d up!
It might be if it was true. Fact check:
Killa Kans $44.50
Ork Big Mek with Bosspole $20.00
Ork Big Mek $22.50
Ork Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun $38.00
Source: http://search.games-workshop.com/search?locale=us&keywords=big+mek
In other words, unless one was speaking of the Shokk Attack Gun, the statement isn't true like half the stuff one sees on this forum. And though it went up in price, the Shokk Attack Gun was already quite expensive and has cost more than $30 for years.
So what's more likely? That I was talking about the SAG Big Mek, which is almost as much as 3 Killa Kans, or that I was talking about a regular ole Big Mek, which is not almost as much as 3 Killa Kans?
Go ahead, take some time to think on it, Brass Scorpion.
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Post by: BrassScorpion
Then my point stands. The Shokk Attack Gun is a lot more than just a Big Mek mini and it was always much more expensive than the other Big Mek miniatures. People refer to that kit as the Shokk Attack Gun, not a Big Mek. It's the artillery piece in the kit that sells it and it's been more than $30 for ages because of it, if people want just a Big Mek they buy a Big Mek, not an expensive Shokk Attack Gun. The Shokk Attack Gun was already $35 before the latest price hike, it only went up $3. There's nothing new about that kit being very expensive as I already pointed out. Go ahead, think about that for a while and stop being obtuse, silly and rude.
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Post by: aka_mythos
filbert wrote:
So GW have done all this to keep costs low and to cut their loyal customers some slack?
Wow, someone should tell PP and all those other manufacturer's who still use white metal - they must be losing a fortune!
I never said that. Chances are they said "We'll use this alternate material because a 25% price increase will cause sale volumes to drop off too much."
GW's a bigger company and have to deal with greater overhead. Their financials don't lie. 400% markup to produce only 9.5% percent profit, which is not the best situation. A company like PP is probably small enough that they only deal with 200-300% markups to gain a similar margin, that lower ratio of cost and necessary markup make it easier for a company to absorb rising costs. In absolute sales volume and dollar value GW is king in this industry.
19754
Post by: puma713
BrassScorpion wrote:Then my point stands. The Shokk Attack Gun is a lot more than just a Big Mek mini and it was always much more expensive than the other Big Mek miniatures. People refer to that kit as the Shokk Attack Gun, not a Big Mek. It's the artillery piece in the kit that sells it, if people want just a Big Mek they buy a Big Mek, not an expensive Shokk Attack Gun. Go ahead, think about that for a while and stop being obtuse, silly and rude.
Actually, your point doesn't stand at all. You said my statement was false. It wasn't false. The model is a Big Mek (I can give you the website addy if you want, but you seem proficient enough to look it up for yourself), not a "Shokk Attack Gun", no matter what people call it. So, pointing out that a Big Mek being $38, which is almost as much as Killa Kans at $44.50 isn't fallacious in any regard. Whatsoever.
Seems like you were being rude in the first place. And obtuse. But I'm not sure the latter was as intentional as the former.
13937
Post by: BrassScorpion
Your statement was at the very least inaccurate and misleading if not blatantly false. Moving on...
18410
Post by: filbert
aka_mythos wrote:filbert wrote:
So GW have done all this to keep costs low and to cut their loyal customers some slack?
Wow, someone should tell PP and all those other manufacturer's who still use white metal - they must be losing a fortune!
I never said that. Chances are they said "We'll use this alternate material because a 25% price increase will cause sale volumes to drop off too much."
GW's a bigger company and have to deal with greater overhead. Their financials don't lie. 400% markup to produce only 9.5% percent profit, which is not the best situation. A company like PP is probably small enough that they only deal with 200-300% markups to gain a similar margin, that lower ratio of cost and necessary markup make it easier for a company to absorb rising costs. In absolute sales volume and dollar value GW is king in this industry.
If they did say that, then they failed. The price of a Canis Wolfborn has increased £5 from £25 to £30 since the switch to resin, which is a 20% increase on the supposedly cheaper material. Not to mention the Blood Knight box which has jumped exponentially.
Isn't it more likely that GW are using this as a smokescreen to lower their costs, hike their prices, make a bit more money and squeeze a bit more money out of the stone? We saw the same thing last year; cut the operating costs to mask the drop in sales. Same again here - raise the prices and it will help hide the falling sales figures.
9010
Post by: Rymafyr
Regardless of perceived detail, ease to work with, and whatever other asinine excuses the apologists want to give; the deal breaker for me is the pic above. Warpage from sitting in a case in what isn't even that much heat is unacceptable. And seriously, don't give me the, "Forge World" resin argument here...I don't buy their crap either.
686
Post by: aka_mythos
@BrassScropion Could his initial statment be taken as misleading?-Yes, but he clarified that. Cut him some slack, you're being nitpicky and arguing that his throw away comment wasn't specific enough. He clearified his point, albeit with excess sas, but then you made it a semantic arguement about his phrasing rather than his point that a particular kit was nearly as pricy as another. At that point it really should have become a non-arguement since its based on the factual comparison of two numerical values.
You guys need to remember rule number one... keep this friendly.
17836
Post by: Ixquic
Rymafyr wrote:Regardless of perceived detail, ease to work with, and whatever other asinine excuses the apologists want to give; the deal breaker for me is the pic above. Warpage from sitting in a case in what isn't even that much heat is unacceptable. And seriously, don't give me the, "Forge World" resin argument here...I don't buy their crap either.
This is actually a dealbreaker for me as well. I keep most of my stuff in the trunk of my car. Having to constantly pull big cases to and from my house to my car (I have a bunch and don't always know what army or system I will be using) is a pain in the ass and the detail isn't so amazing its worth the inconvenience or the price increase.
I haven't bought any GW stuff since 8th edition anyway but this certainly doesn't make me want to come back.
14732
Post by: Lord Scythican
Ixquic wrote:Rymafyr wrote:Regardless of perceived detail, ease to work with, and whatever other asinine excuses the apologists want to give; the deal breaker for me is the pic above. Warpage from sitting in a case in what isn't even that much heat is unacceptable. And seriously, don't give me the, "Forge World" resin argument here...I don't buy their crap either.
This is actually a dealbreaker for me as well. I keep most of my stuff in the trunk of my car. Having to constantly pull big cases too and from my house to my car (I have a bunch and don't always know what army or system I will be using) is a pain in the ass and the detail isn't so amazing its worth the inconvenience or the price increase.
I haven't bought any GW stuff since 8th edition anyway but this certainly doesn't make me want to come back.
Well if you are anything like me, you will not need too much Finecast anyways. I already have all the plague marines and various HQs that I need. If I buy something like a Hive Tyrant or some other Finecast Model, I will keep them in a separate case. You could probably fit all that you will ever own in one of those Gun cases at Wal-Mart for $10.00. Now if it ever gets to the point that you will need an army of Finecast...well that is a different story.
43848
Post by: nectarprime
puma713 wrote:BrassScorpion wrote:Then my point stands. The Shokk Attack Gun is a lot more than just a Big Mek mini and it was always much more expensive than the other Big Mek miniatures. People refer to that kit as the Shokk Attack Gun, not a Big Mek. It's the artillery piece in the kit that sells it, if people want just a Big Mek they buy a Big Mek, not an expensive Shokk Attack Gun. Go ahead, think about that for a while and stop being obtuse, silly and rude.
Actually, your point doesn't stand at all. You said my statement was false. It wasn't false. The model is a Big Mek (I can give you the website addy if you want, but you seem proficient enough to look it up for yourself), not a "Shokk Attack Gun", no matter what people call it. So, pointing out that a Big Mek being $38, which is almost as much as Killa Kans at $44.50 isn't fallacious in any regard. Whatsoever.
Seems like you were being rude in the first place. And obtuse. But I'm not sure the latter was as intentional as the former.
You mad son?
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Post by: aka_mythos
filbert wrote:
If they did say that, then they failed. The price of a Canis Wolfborn has increased £5 from £25 to £30 since the switch to resin, which is a 20% increase on the supposedly cheaper material. Not to mention the Blood Knight box which has jumped exponentially.
A 20% increase is still less than the ~25-26% increase that just the price of tin would impose. Next Bloodknights went from $90 to $99 is a 10% increase... still less than a tin imposed ~25-26% increase.
filbert wrote:
Isn't it more likely that GW are using this as a smokescreen to lower their costs, hike their prices, make a bit more money and squeeze a bit more money out of the stone? We saw the same thing last year; cut the operating costs to mask the drop in sales. Same again here - raise the prices and it will help hide the falling sales figures.
Is it likely some percent of the new material cost change over is being absorbed by the higher price rather than from their profit margin?-Most likely, but the prices of materials don't lie... and GW's financials wouldn't lie in this way. If raising the price was their sole concern why bother with any material change. If it was just about saving money over the old value of materials why make the change now and not then? You treat it like GW's been sitting on this material formula that could save them a ton for all the years and have chosen not to use it till now... only to justify something that was inevitable? There had to be some cost/benefit tipping point to justify it or they would have done it a while ago. Something new happened to push this and that was the unexpectedly higher cost of materials.
5245
Post by: Buzzsaw
aka_mythos wrote:filbert wrote:
So GW have done all this to keep costs low and to cut their loyal customers some slack?
Wow, someone should tell PP and all those other manufacturer's who still use white metal - they must be losing a fortune!
I never said that. Chances are they said "We'll use this alternate material because a 25% price increase will cause sale volumes to drop off too much."
GW's a bigger company and have to deal with greater overhead. Their financials don't lie. 400% markup to produce only 9.5% percent profit, which is not the best situation. A company like PP is probably small enough that they only deal with 200-300% markups to gain a similar margin, that lower ratio of cost and necessary markup make it easier for a company to absorb rising costs. In absolute sales volume and dollar value GW is king in this industry.
Uh, GW, as a larger company should have larger costs of production? They do have more overhead, but it's nothing to do with being larger, it's their international chain of retail stores, which create a unique series of problems for GW (but which, in fairness, they consider worth the cost).
You have to remember that the production costs for these minis is almost entirely made up of non- raw materials costs. Yes, the cost of the white metal increased by quite a bit, but the white metal never made up much of the costs of the item anyway. The labor, packaging, stocking, storage and so on are most of the cost.
BrassScorpion wrote:Then my point stands. The Shokk Attack Gun is a lot more than just a Big Mek mini and it was always much more expensive than the other Big Mek miniatures. People refer to that kit as the Shokk Attack Gun, not a Big Mek. It's the artillery piece in the kit that sells it and it's been more than $30 for ages because of it, if people want just a Big Mek they buy a Big Mek, not an expensive Shokk Attack Gun. The Shokk Attack Gun was already $35 before the latest price hike, it only went up $3. There's nothing new about that kit being very expensive as I already pointed out. Go ahead, think about that for a while and stop being obtuse, silly and rude.
Heh, always nice to see the old 'you're wrong because I have defined the terms differently, neener neener' argument come out and stretch its legs.
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Post by: aka_mythos
Buzzsaw wrote:
GW's a bigger company and have to deal with greater overhead. Their financials don't lie. 400% markup to produce only 9.5% percent profit, which is not the best situation...quote]
Uh, GW, as a larger company should have larger costs of production? They do have more overhead, but it's nothing to do with being larger, it's their international chain of retail stores, which create a unique series of problems for GW (but which, in fairness, they consider worth the cost).
You have to remember that the production costs for these minis is almost entirely made up of non-raw materials costs. Yes, the cost of the white metal increased by quite a bit, but the white metal never made up much of the costs of the item anyway. The labor, packaging, stocking, storage and so on are most of the cost.
While what you say is true it only compounds the issue at hand. I'm saying the material costs alone were enough to justify the shift in retail price of GW's products higher. All those other things are just additional costs on top of that whose shifts would only further push the price.
Also lets not confuse their cost of production with overhead, operation expenses. They need to cover more overhead but it isn't a direct component in the cost of production. My point was that their financials show an across the board 400% markup over their cost of sales, which includes manufacturing cost and materials of the sold product... that doesn't include "operation expenses" for running retail outlets and product developement. Those are actually irrelevent for this. Those thing impact profitability but we're addressing a specific change that is represented on a single line of their financials.
The revenue from sales relative cost of sales is the ratio showing how much they need to add to products value to get the sales price to achieve their current profit margin.
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Post by: Buzzsaw
aka_mythos wrote:filbert wrote:
If they did say that, then they failed. The price of a Canis Wolfborn has increased £5 from £25 to £30 since the switch to resin, which is a 20% increase on the supposedly cheaper material. Not to mention the Blood Knight box which has jumped exponentially.
A 20% increase is still less than the ~25-26% increase that just the price of tin would impose. Next Bloodknights went from $90 to $99 is a 10% increase... still less than a tin imposed ~25-26% increase.
This is a good example of what I was saying: you have to remember that the amount of raw materials is almost insignificant in these kits.
I just weighed a metal 40K model, and it came in at 1/4 of an ounce (granted, it's a kitchen scale, but it's a primed and based model, so let's call it even).
Suppose tin is $8 a pound (50 cents an ounce), that metal model has a raw material cost of 12.5 cents. Suppose that tin then goes to $16 an ounce (which is about what it is now, I believe), that same model has had it's raw material costs double, but the costs are still only 25 cents. Put another way, it's still an insignificant proportion of the cost.
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Post by: Raptor
puma713 wrote:So what's more likely? That I was talking about the SAG Big Mek, which is almost as much as 3 Killa Kans, or that I was talking about a regular ole Big Mek, which is not almost as much as 3 Killa Kans?
FWIW, I got ya pretty easily. I don't buy Orks, but perusing the GW website, I saw a mini called "Big Mek" with Shokk Gun for $38, which is surprisingly close to $44.50. Huh.
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Post by: Buzzsaw
aka_mythos wrote:Buzzsaw wrote:
GW's a bigger company and have to deal with greater overhead. Their financials don't lie. 400% markup to produce only 9.5% percent profit, which is not the best situation...quote]
Uh, GW, as a larger company should have larger costs of production? They do have more overhead, but it's nothing to do with being larger, it's their international chain of retail stores, which create a unique series of problems for GW (but which, in fairness, they consider worth the cost).
You have to remember that the production costs for these minis is almost entirely made up of non-raw materials costs. Yes, the cost of the white metal increased by quite a bit, but the white metal never made up much of the costs of the item anyway. The labor, packaging, stocking, storage and so on are most of the cost.
While what you say is true it only compounds the issue at hand. I'm saying the material costs alone were enough to justify the shift in retail price of GW's products higher. All those other things are just additional costs on top of that whose shifts would only further push the price.
Also lets not confuse their cost of production with overhead, operation expenses. They need to cover more overhead but it isn't a direct component in the cost of production. My point was that their financials show an across the board 400% markup over their cost of sales, which includes manufacturing cost and materials of the sold product... that doesn't include "operation expenses" for running retail outlets and product developement. Those are actually irrelevent for this. Those thing impact profitability but we're addressing a specific change that is represented on a single line of their financials.
The revenue from sales relative cost of sales is the ratio showing how much they need to add to products value to get the sales price to achieve their current profit margin.
I apologize, I am really not getting what you are trying to say here: my original comment was a reaction to the comment " GW's a bigger company and have to deal with greater overhead. Their financials don't lie. 400% markup to produce only 9.5% percent profit, which is not the best situation. A company like PP is probably small enough that they only deal with 200-300% markups to gain a similar margin, that lower ratio of cost and necessary markup make it easier for a company to absorb rising costs. In absolute sales volume and dollar value GW is king in this industry."
Rather then try and discern what you meant, let me state my point as: a larger company will have larger costs, but they will be proportionally smaller when tied to the amount of production. This is the efficiency of large scale operations, and it should exist at all levels of production. A smaller company should not be able to do the same things cheaper on a unit per unit basis, absent a confounding factor (like union rules, bad business decisions, so on).
I'm saying the material costs alone were enough to justify the shift in retail price of GW's products higher.
See, here I am just not seeing where you are coming from: assume a cost of tin at $16 per pound, a weight of 1/4 ounce for a model and a model MSRP of $10. The cost of the tin is 25cents of $10, or 2.5%. The price of tin doubling (to $32 per pound) would increase that to 50cents of the $10 MSRP. But instead of increasing the price by 2.5%, they have increased the price by... 15%? 20%?
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Post by: aka_mythos
Buzzsaw wrote:This is a good example of what I was saying: you have to remember that the amount of raw materials is almost insignificant in these kits.
I just weighed a metal 40K model, and it came in at 1/4 of an ounce (granted, it's a kitchen scale, but it's a primed and based model, so let's call it even).
Suppose tin is $8 a pound (50 cents an ounce), that metal model has a raw material cost of 12.5 cents. Suppose that tin then goes to $16 an ounce (which is about what it is now, I believe), that same model has had it's raw material costs double, but the costs are still only 25 cents. Put another way, it's still an insignificant proportion of the cost.
I never said its a good way, just the way they're justifying it.
Their cost of sales is marked up 400% to achieve the revenue to produce a 9.5% profit. Whatever goofy formula they use and regardless of price increase, this is something thats been relatively consistent. So maybe I'm wrong in trying to justify it with a single surge of material costs, but you also have other materials in the alloy... you still have waste material that isn't present in the model you use as an example... and you have inflation. Everything from GW I've seen shows their profit margin and markup are two things they hold relatively consistent, year to year.
IF GW is really trying to pull a fast one we will see it next time they post their financial statement.
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Post by: Buzzsaw
aka_mythos wrote:Buzzsaw wrote:This is a good example of what I was saying: you have to remember that the amount of raw materials is almost insignificant in these kits.
I just weighed a metal 40K model, and it came in at 1/4 of an ounce (granted, it's a kitchen scale, but it's a primed and based model, so let's call it even).
Suppose tin is $8 a pound (50 cents an ounce), that metal model has a raw material cost of 12.5 cents. Suppose that tin then goes to $16 an ounce (which is about what it is now, I believe), that same model has had it's raw material costs double, but the costs are still only 25 cents. Put another way, it's still an insignificant proportion of the cost.
I never said its a good way, just the way they're justifying it.
Their cost of sales is marked up 400% to achieve the revenue to produce a 9.5% profit. Whatever goofy formula they use and regardless of price increase, this is something thats been relatively consistent. So maybe I'm wrong in trying to justify it with a single surge of material costs, but you also have other materials in the alloy... you still have waste material that isn't present in the model you use as an example... and you have inflation. Everything from GW I've seen shows their profit margin and markup are two things they hold relatively consistent, year to year.
IF GW is really trying to pull a fast one we will see it next time they post their financial statement.
Sorry, not trying to be argumentative, just trying to untangle what you think, as opposed to what you believe is GW's strategy; when you say;
I'm saying the material costs alone were enough to justify the shift in retail price of GW's products higher.
Is that what you think, or are you saying that is the fig leaf GW is using to justify this price raise? As I said "assume a cost of tin at $16 per pound, a weight of 1/4 ounce for a model and a model MSRP of $10. The cost of the tin is 25cents of $10, or 2.5%. The price of tin doubling (to $32 per pound) would increase that to 50cents of the $10 MSRP."
Even a 10% increase in increase in MSRP is almost an order of magnitude greater then the amount of costs incurred by the increase in material costs.
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Post by: aka_mythos
Buzzsaw wrote:
Rather then try and discern what you meant, let me state my point as: a larger company will have larger costs, but they will be proportionally smaller when tied to the amount of production. This is the efficiency of large scale operations, and it should exist at all levels of production. A smaller company should not be able to do the same things cheaper on a unit per unit basis, absent a confounding factor (like union rules, bad business decisions, so on).
I'm saying that a larger company like GW that functions mostly by greater sales volume is more quickly impacted by small changes in material price. That their high markup to achieve a particular profit margin only compounds the problems for consumers.
It takes less than a 30% cost to produce increase to wipe out all of GW's profits, such that they break even and lose what they could have made just leaving their money in the bank.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Buzzsaw wrote:
Sorry, not trying to be argumentative, just trying to untangle what you think, as opposed to what you believe is GW's strategy; when you say;
I think you're being fair. I don't think I'm perfectly right. I've meant mostly what I said as a matter of explaining in general terms why even a "cost savings" could still result in a price increase. Its started out in general terms, but I think the examples gone a little out of control and my language may have shifted towards being more absolute than I intended.
Buzzsaw wrote:
I'm saying the material costs alone were enough to justify the shift in retail price of GW's products higher.
Is that what you think, or are you saying that is the fig leaf GW is using to justify this price raise? As I said "assume a cost of tin at $16 per pound, a weight of 1/4 ounce for a model and a model MSRP of $10. The cost of the tin is 25cents of $10, or 2.5%. The price of tin doubling (to $32 per pound) would increase that to 50cents of the $10 MSRP."
Even a 10% increase in increase in MSRP is almost an order of magnitude greater then the amount of costs incurred by the increase in material costs.
The missing link here is that all of what you're talking about only justifies their wholesale price, not the retail cost. So at $.25 a miniature's material cost jumps to $.50... that results in the mark up to $2.00... which is $2.00 of a "$10" mini... include other materials and lets add a dollar and a half for copper (also in the alloy), packaging, shipping boxes, ... now its $3.50 of a $10 mini... well the vast majority of the time GW doesn't sell a $3.50 miniature for $10, it sells a $3.50 miniature for $4.5 to a wholesaler who in turn sells it for $5-$6.5 to retailers. This difference is why GW stores can justify their existence they bring in $10 on a $3.5 mini.
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Post by: puma713
nectarprime wrote:puma713 wrote:*snip*
You mad son?
Nah, brah. You new here?
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Post by: farmersboy
I thought I'd wait until I got my hands on some of theses here Finecast figures before I commented, and now I've finally bought a couple (Yarrick and the jump pack Chaplain)
Well, they are very nice, with hardly any faults that I've spotted so far, but are they really worth £10.50 each?!
No, they most certainly are not. Now I'm not expecting prices to be the same as when I played D&D and Citadel figures were 3 for £1, but bloody hell! Especially when the only option you'll soon have, if you want to stick to GW, are the substandard plastic figures of a quality I would have expected 10-15 years ago.
The marketing has been truly awful - a massive hike in prices, a hugely expensive new line of minaitures and the removal of all metal figures from the store so punters can't say "stuff that, I'll buy the cheaper metal one!"
Thank God I just paint figures and not play armies - it's just too damn expensive!
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Post by: BrassScorpion
The new Finecast models are mostly very nice. There are bugs to work out of the new system, hopefully GW will work on that. Most of it seems to be in quality control. All minis have some flaws and things to clean up on them. And miscasts will always occur, the issue there is to NOT let them go out of the factory. The QA process of checking them before packaging clearly needs to be improved so that miscasts don't make it to the store in any quantity. That said, most of the models look great in the new material. Someone just posted pictures of another miniature line here on the forum. The photo of one resin mini clearly shows lots of little unwanted bits of residue along the fine lines of the model. 
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Post by: Kilkrazy
I am a member of the forum Boardgamegeek where the discussion is mostly about board games (duh!)
A user there posted about the Finecast
I have played quite a bit of GW stuff over the last 30 years or so. Covering Warhammer, 40k, Warmaster, WHFRP, Space Hulk, etc etc etc. I remember when their stores carried all sorts of games, and I have a lot of respect for many of the things they have done. These days I have no time and so have migrated to board and wargames. BUT my nine year old son is looking at my old minis and saying. 'Cool, Dad. When can I start?'.
I popped into a GW store at the weekend and I saw a pack of five (F-I-V-E) cavalry figures in a box for sixty (S-I-X-T-Y) pounds sterling.
I thought it was a misprint.
I looked along the shelf and there was a new gimmick in store. Citadel Finecast. Resin minis at £20+ per box of ONE GUY. I struggle to think of a bigger rip off. The tragedy is that I actually like GW but this is just too much. A gamer with a soul needs to sort out their board of directors.
Goodbye GW. Hello Mantic
Very sad.
Much argument ensued about whether GW are justified or not in pricing their models so high.
However that is irrelevant to people who have been priced out.
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Post by: Raptor
The positive press is in. Nothing too interesting or hyperbolic, though.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=16800017a
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Post by: knighthaunter
...and the peasants rejoiced
lol i dont even have any in my area yet, all i got is LGS's and none of the 5 in my area that carry GW have any yet...i would like to actually take a look in person.
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Post by: Foo
Radical_Edward wrote:Neith wrote:ajefferism wrote: I dont see the portion thats missing. Are you talking about the middle of the blade on the cutting side? If so, the "flesh" cloth robe behind the blade sorta looks like its part of the blade but it isn't... just the same lightness as the blade so it looks like its part of it... i think its a photography issue that the two blend together....
Unless your talking about another portion of the blade...
It could just be me not seeing it; for my Archon the Huskblade looks more like the shape of a DE Power Sword; after the tip of the blade, it cuts inward, rather than being a smooth blade edge. It actually looks pretty cool, but it's a miscast on mine after comparing it to my metal Archon. It looked like the same had happened to yours, but maybe it's just that I can't make it out on the photo well.
Edit: Terrible phone camera pic (no macro function!) but this is what I mean.
Hard to make out, but the blade on mine has a block cut out of it.
I actually have a metal archon in blister sitting here and it has the same 'hook' style blade. I don't think it's a miscast.
Yep. That's the shape of the blade. This is my metal Archon, in progress.
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Post by: Jburch
It might just be me, but these pictures GW always posts of their shops, make me want to stay as far away, from a GW brick & morter store, as humanly possible.
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Post by: Raptor
Some Guy on BGG wrote:I popped into a GW store at the weekend and I saw a pack of five (F-I-V-E) cavalry figures in a box for sixty (S-I-X-T-Y) pounds sterling.
I thought it was a misprint.
I can't talk with all the money I've sent GW's way, but I, too, threw up in my mouth a little bit when I saw those vampire knights for $99 USD.
My personal favorite is Abaddon. I've purchased him probably five times. I remember the day he was released for $8.50, the same price as pretty much all HQ single figs back in the day. That same model has increased by a few dollars and/or cents every couple of years until this last week, when I told a buddy of mine "I guarantee after Saturday he'll be $25!" GW made a liar out of me; he only went to $22.25.
But that (now surprisingly diminutive) figure was always good for conversions. Maybe I'll make an all-Abaddon chaos term squad for old-time's sake. Now available for the low, low price of $111.25. Plus tax.
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Post by: Ixquic
I will admit that the packaging (with the card showing a fully painted model on the front) feels a lot more professional and cool than before.
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Post by: Surtur
See? Australians are happy about our prices! - GW
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Post by: KOS
so in the end, Finecast is a ripoff.... great :(
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Post by: Breotan
Raptor wrote:I can't talk with all the money I've sent GW's way, but I, too, threw up in my mouth a little bit when I saw those vampire knights for $99 USD.
Ya, I'm feeling pretty relieved that I never wanted to get into Vampire Counts.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
I reckon nowadays you are looking at £350 for a 1,500 point army with a couple of options.
Codex, 1 HQ, 6 Elites, 30 Troops, 2 Transports, 6 Fast Attack, 2 Heavies.
Obviously there will be some variation depending on the army and exact choices.
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Post by: BrassScorpion
so in the end, Finecast is a ripoff.... great :(
No more or no less than GW multi-part plastic sets. Some went up in price a lot more than others, some seem more worth the asking price than others. Regardless of the switch from pewter to resin, GW was going to have their annual price hike at the end of May because it's the end of their fiscal year and as always, some price increases seem more egregious than others. Bloodknights were hardly a bargain when they were $75 US and then $90 and I don't see Finecast as the reason they are now $99, it's pretty well guaranteed that increase or worse would also have occurred if GW had stayed with pewter. There seems to be some confusion about price increases and Finecast as if GW would not have had their annual price increase at the end of May anyway. Now who is up for paying $58 US for 20 plastic Catachans that were first released in 1999?
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Post by: knighthaunter
Ixquic wrote:I will admit that the packaging (with the card showing a fully painted model on the front) feels a lot more professional and cool than before.
i can actually say that the new packaging seems nice to me to, you can tell at a glance what you are looking at. Seems like it would be nice for scanning through whats on the wall without having to read the tiny text.
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Post by: MikeMcSomething
aka_mythos wrote:
Once again if you look at GW prices and their financial records from their investors page you can see they markup their products 400% over cost of manufacturing to maintain a 9.5% profit. That means $1 worth of tin in the white metal has to sell for $4... well tin went up by 60%. So $1 of tin now had to sell for $6.4.... but rather than bump their model from $4 to $6.40, they went for an option that was $5 and provided a modest improvement in casting quality.
This price increase would have happened no matter what. It is the end result of the financial concept of alternative cost... where by GW saw the cost of doing nothing was too high. It was either do nothing and see a 23~24% increase to keep using metal because of the price of tin or see a 15~19% increase by shifting to a resin-plastic mixture, with some quality improvements
You posted this exact same argument in another thread and a couple of the accountant/analyst guys that post on here shot it down (you then reposted it, completely unchanged, in it's entirety, in this thread - I'll repeat - you reposted the exact same argument, without changes, in a new therad, after it was shown to be demonstrably invalid in the first place) the gist of it was that GW's materials costs aren't all of it's costs so an increase in materials doesn't represent a 100% equivalent increase in COGS and the profit figure you mentioned is after they shell out piles of cash to shore up their failing retail outlets which don't suddenly cost 60% more to run just because metal cost 60% more this quarter. The person that initially completely refuted your line of argument went into it in a bit more detail, I'm just reposting the summary from what I can recall. Automatically Appended Next Post: BrassScorpion wrote:so in the end, Finecast is a ripoff.... great :(
No more or no less than GW multi-part plastic sets. Some went up in price a lot more than others, some seem more worth the asking price than others. Regardless of the switch from pewter to resin, GW was going to have their annual price hike at the end of May because it's the end of their fiscal year and as always, some price increases seem more egregious than others. Bloodknights were hardly a bargain when they were $75 US and then $90 and I don't see Finecast as the reason they are now $99, it's pretty well guaranteed that increase or worse would also have occurred if GW had stayed with pewter. There seems to be some confusion about price increases and Finecast as if GW would not have had their annual price increase at the end of May anyway. Now who is up for paying $58 US for 20 plastic Catachans that were first released in 1999?
Your response to "This stuff costs too much" seems to be "Well they could have made it cost more! Are you happy now?!" with a dash of "They were going to make it cost more anyway so HA!" thrown in. It doesn't really even address the "This stuff costs too much" argument, much less invalidate it as you seem to be thinking it should.
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Post by: BrassScorpion
Your response to "This stuff costs too much" seems to be "Well they could have made it cost more! Are you happy now?!" with a dash of "They were going to make it cost more anyway so HA!" thrown in. It doesn't really even address the "This stuff costs too much" argument, much less invalidate it as you seem to be thinking it should.
You're inferring an awful lot that just is not there. My point, which I thought I made abundantly clear in plain English, was that saying Finecast is a rip-off specifically was fallacious. GW prices are high and they just went up again. It would have happened whether or not the blister pack models were still pewter or not. In other words, the issue of price is there regardless of Finecast, not because of it. I didn't say discussing whether or not prices are too high was not a legitimate topic, nor was I specifically defending or criticizing the prices though I added some comments of my own about pricing getting rather high (e.g., Catachans). People who were paying attention may have noticed that. There does seem to be some misguided attempts by some, however, to blame all the price issues on Finecast and I don't believe that's a valid idea, nor do I believe Finecast is any more or less a rip-off depending on one's perspective on the matter than the rest of the GW product line. If there was less getting exercise jumping to conclusions on forums then every post with a slightly complex idea wouldn't require multiple explanations and these threads would be a lot less cluttered.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
The introduction of Finecast was a good cover for a big price increase, however there probably would have been one anyway.
GW's pricing policy for some years has been to increase prices faster than inflation and costs in order to maintain revenue against falling unit sales.
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Post by: BrassScorpion
Kilkrazy wrote:The introduction of Finecast was a good cover for a big price increase, however there probably would have been one anyway. GW's pricing policy for some years has been to increase prices faster than inflation and costs in order to maintain revenue against falling unit sales.
Nicely succinct.
Rolling out a new product line at the beginning of a fiscal year and coincident with the annual price increase makes sense. Interestingly, the total number of items in the product line that went up in price this year is less than last year if I recall correctly. However, the amount that some items went up this year, I can think of some that went up 25% in this one jump, is startling. It's not putting me out of the hobby, but there are more items each year now that I simply will not buy or will not buy as many of or that I would only buy when a bargain presents itself. Some items definitely seem more worth their pricing than others as the upper limits on certain items reach new heights.
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Post by: Schmapdi
I like to think that the Aussie pic is of them storming the GW to claim the head of the manager in protest for the Embargo policy, and GW just added the caption of "look how much they want Finecast."
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Post by: aka_mythos
MikeMcSomething wrote:
You posted this exact same argument in another thread and a couple of the accountant/analyst guys that post on here shot it down (you then reposted it, completely unchanged, in it's entirety, in this thread - I'll repeat - you reposted the exact same argument, without changes, in a new therad, after it was shown to be demonstrably invalid in the first place)...
I don't think I'm unique in saying I don't follow every thread I post in, indefinitely. I speak from my own experiance in managing the design, engineering, manufacture, and sale of small component parts for for consumer, industrial, and military products. Maybe I'm speaking outside of my experiance, so please link me to the thread you're talking about.
MikeMcSomething wrote:
...the gist of it was that GW's materials costs aren't all of it's costs so an increase in materials doesn't represent a 100% equivalent increase in COGS
My responses were not intended to answer "why it costs so much" but rather "why something that suppose to be a cost savings can cost more?" As I said I've taken my language a little too absolutist and awknowledge my example isn't the sole reason, just contributory and as an example of how material costs can make an impact.
MikeMcSomething wrote:
...and the profit figure you mentioned is after they shell out piles of cash to shore up their failing retail outlets which don't suddenly cost 60% more to run just because metal cost 60% more this quarter.
Yes, because profits can only be measured after you pay down liabilities... but if GW is anticipating particular costs to operate retail outlets, its part of the pricing scheme to result in the final after tax profits. You look at the last few years of financials and they're either lucky or just good at hitting a particular range.
MikeMcSomething wrote:
The person that initially completely refuted your line of argument went into it in a bit more detail, I'm just reposting the summary from what I can recall.
Until I have a chance to say otherwise to their post, all I can say is not everything you read online is correct. This is my opinion, drawn from my experiance successfully working with amounts of money greater than I own. In this world you'll always have people who disagree, but it doesn't mean they're right.
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Post by: Raptor
I still have two sealed boxes of Cadians from when they were 20 per box and cost...whatever they cost when they first came out. I think three such boxes came in an army deal at the time. Memories...
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Post by: Eilif
Kilkrazy wrote:I am a member of the forum Boardgamegeek where the discussion is mostly about board games (duh!)
A user there posted about the Finecast
I have played quite a bit of GW stuff over the last 30 years or so. Covering Warhammer, 40k, Warmaster, WHFRP, Space Hulk, etc etc etc. I remember when their stores carried all sorts of games, and I have a lot of respect for many of the things they have done. These days I have no time and so have migrated to board and wargames. BUT my nine year old son is looking at my old minis and saying. 'Cool, Dad. When can I start?'.
I popped into a GW store at the weekend and I saw a pack of five (F-I-V-E) cavalry figures in a box for sixty (S-I-X-T-Y) pounds sterling.
I thought it was a misprint.
I looked along the shelf and there was a new gimmick in store. Citadel Finecast. Resin minis at £20+ per box of ONE GUY. I struggle to think of a bigger rip off. The tragedy is that I actually like GW but this is just too much. A gamer with a soul needs to sort out their board of directors.
Goodbye GW. Hello Mantic
Very sad.
Much argument ensued about whether GW are justified or not in pricing their models so high.
Would you mind linking, I'd like to read the discussion. Interesting, that -probably without knowing the facts- the poster very appropriatly mentions the Board of directors who recently approved a dividend that essentially doubled the GW CEO's sallary!
Newbie teens are drawn in regardless of price, but it's always interesting to hear the reactions to GW of adult gamers when they discover GW's prices. A friend in my gaming group is like this. He has been gaming for near 20 years, and has a very nice miniature collection. He sees how much of his hobby budget would be eaten up, and just has never been able to see the point of getting into GW.
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Post by: Dysartes
The only bit there that interested me was the aside to say that the Tomb Kings book has been translated into Japanese.....
Not that I speak/read/understand the language, but it seemed kinda cool.
BrassScorpion wrote:Interestingly, the total number of items in the product line that went up in price this year is less than last year if I recall correctly.
Might this have something to do with the number of metal lines which have been pulled, and are awaiting a Finecast rerelease? Might that number increase as future waves arrive?
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Eilif wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:I am a member of the forum Boardgamegeek where the discussion is mostly about board games (duh!)
A user there posted about the Finecast
...
I popped into a GW store at the weekend and I saw a pack of five (F-I-V-E) cavalry figures in a box for sixty (S-I-X-T-Y) pounds sterling.
I thought it was a misprint.
I looked along the shelf and there was a new gimmick in store. Citadel Finecast. Resin minis at £20+ per box of ONE GUY. I struggle to think of a bigger rip off. The tragedy is that I actually like GW but this is just too much. A gamer with a soul needs to sort out their board of directors.
Goodbye GW. Hello Mantic
Very sad.
Much argument ensued about whether GW are justified or not in pricing their models so high.
Would you mind linking, I'd like to read the discussion. Interesting, that -probably without knowing the facts- the poster very appropriatly mentions the Board of directors who recently approved a dividend that essentially doubled the GW CEO's sallary!
Newbie teens are drawn in regardless of price, but it's always interesting to hear the reactions to GW of adult gamers when they discover GW's prices. A friend in my gaming group is like this. He has been gaming for near 20 years, and has a very nice miniature collection. He sees how much of his hobby budget would be eaten up, and just has never been able to see the point of getting into GW.
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/658174/games-workshop-game-over
it was the sticker price shock that floored the poster. It kind of floored me too, when I went into GW yesterday to take a look. I knew intellectually that a single Zoanthrope had been increased to £15.50, but the reality hit me when I picked up a blister and thought how much it would cost to build my Tyranid army now. No-one buys a model like a Zoanthrope for a display piece. You buy them because they are one of the two decent anti-tank units in the Tyranid codex. (The other one, Hive Guards, are also £15.50 each.)
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Post by: warspawned
Strange how Australia gets mentioned three times
This customer, known only as Konrad, came into the store in Ringwood, Australia, raised his knives above his head (that's not a knife, this is a knife), and demanded that the staff make Konrad von Carstein in Citadel Finecast. Well, hold onto your Fellbats because you never know, one day we might do just that.
No, you really don't want that Konrad. Floppy swords could be used as a derogatory metaphor by some unscrupulous folk 
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Post by: vitki
Man, Aus must be a different place.
How quickly do you think the police would be onsite if a kid came into a US store waving knives above his head?
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Post by: Kilkrazy
warspawned wrote:
Strange how Australia gets mentioned three times
...
It depends if you regard GW website content as news reports or advertising.
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Post by: DAWARBOSS
Schmapdi wrote:
I like to think that the Aussie pic is of them storming the GW to claim the head of the manager in protest for the Embargo policy, and GW just added the caption of "look how much they want Finecast."
Oh, and for the japan picture the guy on the far right looks like hes about to punch it. Look how happy these people in japan with there overpriced miniatures look!, says GW
41203
Post by: Insurgency Walker
Depends on the FLGS. I've seen one of our "local" arms importers once bring in a WWII G43(?) he had just scored. He asked permission first of course. "Maine, the way life should be!"
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Post by: infinite_array
warspawned wrote:
Strange how Australia gets mentioned three times
Wow. You're right. 'Hey, look! Australians totally love Games Workshop! They completely appreciate their higher prices, since they make so much more than everyone else! In fact, they've started giving us money! So we'll have to increase our prices again so we can send more models to Australia!'
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Post by: Thrax
lol, the Australia to England comparison in the first two photos. Crazy uncivilized Aussies next to the civilized, gentlemanlike Englishmen.
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Post by: Cryonicleech
There's another great review on Finecast here
http://blip.tv/watching-paint-dry/citadel-finecast-review-5214720
This guy bought Marneus Calgar and Honor Guard. While some people (myself included) are worried about the quality of a single miniature, this guy's box turned out to be great, and I intend to pick up some Finecast Bolt Throwers for my Dark Elves.
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Post by: Alendrel
Cryonicleech wrote:There's another great review on Finecast here
http://blip.tv/watching-paint-dry/citadel-finecast-review-5214720
This guy bought Marneus Calgar and Honor Guard. While some people (myself included) are worried about the quality of a single miniature, this guy's box turned out to be great, and I intend to pick up some Finecast Bolt Throwers for my Dark Elves.
Compare and contrast to the MC and HG set I got here: http://s1100.photobucket.com/albums/g401/alendrel/Finecast/
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Post by: realgenius
I live down in Texas where it gets pretty hot, so I put some of the sprue in my car in the sun for a test.
(Obviously the thermometer is in degrees Fahrenheit.)
There is a small sag under the weight, but when hung vertically it returned to normal shape. I also experimented with heating and bending a piece of sprue in hot water. You can bend and cool it to maintain a bent shape, but heating it up in hot water brings it back almost to the original shape.
Like someone mentioned earlier, I did notice that the sprue piece flexibility seems to depend on the thickness of the piece in question. When I was bending the sprue on the short cross-section, it could bend back on itself. When I bent it across the thick cross-section it snapped under much less of an angle.
2326
Post by: shasolenzabi
Posted this elsewhere, but feel it can be posted here as well.
"Ah, damage control, with all the hype to have all of these issues so early on to have to fix is embarrassment. The fact remains that GW did make this a hyped product as it was the greatest thing since electricity. What is good is that they want the defective models sent back for revision and to make sure that QC stops such poor examples from going out again. This tells us that GW is embarrassed about it, and is seeking to do something about it, especially at those prices. For the amount of money their FW division charges fro vehicles, to have all that work to do to clean and fix resin bitz is crazy, for that amount one would expect the models to be cleaned and sanded down, smaller companies like Old Crow sell cheaper, and do all that clean up work for you, If I can get a tank for 35USD all cleaned and deburred and such, why can't I get such a job done from FW for the 100+ they charge a tank? these Finecasts on sprues, well, I look at that as added protection from sliding around.
BTW, if the Grotesues were plastics, they'd still charge you 20bucks! GW thinks of themselves as the Porsche of the gaming industry, I say they are more Ford/Lincoln/Mercury other companies make superior minis to what GW makes, and others make at least to lower quality but solid minis I think that if GW had some true competition out there, then they might feel the challenge to be better at what they do for the prices they charge for what they deliver. "
6454
Post by: Cryonicleech
Ach, sorry to see that man. The faceplate on that Standard Bearer is atrocious, to say the least.
Miscasts do happen, and I'm sure if you sent piccies to GW you may be able to work something out. Still, goes to show that Finecast is far from perfect.
11
Post by: ph34r
realgenius wrote:Like someone mentioned earlier, I did notice that the sprue piece flexibility seems to depend on the thickness of the piece in question. When I was bending the sprue on the short cross-section, it could bend back on itself. When I bent it across the thick cross-section it snapped under much less of an angle.
Mechanical Engineering 101 
6158
Post by: realgenius
ph34r wrote:realgenius wrote:Like someone mentioned earlier, I did notice that the sprue piece flexibility seems to depend on the thickness of the piece in question. When I was bending the sprue on the short cross-section, it could bend back on itself. When I bent it across the thick cross-section it snapped under much less of an angle.
Mechanical Engineering 101
On the perpendicular sprue piece I noticed the opposite was true, so it doesn't always seem to be dependent on the dimensions of the piece. I've always thought of resin as fairly homogeneous but it almost seems like it has a "grain"; bend with the grain and you're ok, but bend against and it snaps easily.
11
Post by: ph34r
"Grain" in plastic really doesn't matter. In wood, yes. Plastic, not so much.
38920
Post by: Predaking
shasolenzabi wrote:
BTW, if the Grotesues were plastics, they'd still charge you 20bucks! GW thinks of themselves as the Porsche of the gaming industry, I say they are more Ford/Lincoln/Mercury other companies make superior minis to what GW makes, and others make at least to lower quality but solid minis I think that if GW had some true competition out there, then they might feel the challenge to be better at what they do for the prices they charge for what they deliver. "
Nah they would of put them them in packs of 3 and sold em for £30+ like the nid warriors + raveners
6515
Post by: Starfarer
Kilkrazy wrote:I am a member of the forum Boardgamegeek where the discussion is mostly about board games (duh!)
A user there posted about the Finecast
I have played quite a bit of GW stuff over the last 30 years or so. Covering Warhammer, 40k, Warmaster, WHFRP, Space Hulk, etc etc etc. I remember when their stores carried all sorts of games, and I have a lot of respect for many of the things they have done. These days I have no time and so have migrated to board and wargames. BUT my nine year old son is looking at my old minis and saying. 'Cool, Dad. When can I start?'.
I popped into a GW store at the weekend and I saw a pack of five (F-I-V-E) cavalry figures in a box for sixty (S-I-X-T-Y) pounds sterling.
I thought it was a misprint.
I looked along the shelf and there was a new gimmick in store. Citadel Finecast. Resin minis at £20+ per box of ONE GUY. I struggle to think of a bigger rip off. The tragedy is that I actually like GW but this is just too much. A gamer with a soul needs to sort out their board of directors.
Goodbye GW. Hello Mantic
Very sad.
Much argument ensued about whether GW are justified or not in pricing their models so high.
However that is irrelevant to people who have been priced out.
Don't get me wrong, that does suck for people, especially if they are wanting to introduce their kids to a new hobby and the amazing universe GW has created.
However, no one will bemoan, say Lexus, because I am priced out of the GS 460. There are always other, more reasonably priced cars to purchase. Just as their are lower priced models available, although usually of lesser quality. The difference for most people, is that they already own armies, yet they want the newer models, but they don't actually need them.
Now to continue the car metaphor, they do require maintenance occasionally, i.e. new codexes, rulebooks, etc. But just as people can keep driving their older car, they can keep playing with their existing armies. They are not entitled to barebones prices on new releases, just as people aren't entitled to brand new cars for low costs, just because they are a previous customer of the company. GW is not unique in that regard to any other large corporation. The fact that they produce a product that people feel passionately about, does not entitle their fans to special treatment. The consumer ultimately has the choice whether or nor to support a company. If they are not happy with the cost or quality of the product, they are always free to take their business elsewhere.
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Post by: Raptor
Now to continue the car metaphor, they do require maintenance occasionally, i.e. new codexes, rulebooks, etc. But just as people can keep driving their older car, they can keep playing with their existing armies. They are not entitled to barebones prices on new releases, just as people aren't entitled to brand new cars for low costs, just because they are a previous customer of the company. GW is not unique in that regard to any other large corporation. The fact that they produce a product that people feel passionately about, does not entitle their fans to special treatment. The consumer ultimately has the choice whether or nor to support a company. If they are not happy with the cost or quality of the product, they are always free to take their business elsewhere.
As much as I cringe at a $66 Land Raider or a deformed resin $22 Abaddon, I basically agree with this. A product is "worth" exactly what someone is willing to pay for it, and we're willing to pay for it. A company can largely run its business model how it wants if it has enough loyal and/or new customers to keep the lights on and the metal/plastic/resin flowing. And we, if anything, are loyal. Can't very well get Tyranids and Dark Angels and Space Orks anywhere else.
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Post by: Pacific
Cadaver wrote:
Now to continue the car metaphor, they do require maintenance occasionally, i.e. new codexes, rulebooks, etc. But just as people can keep driving their older car, they can keep playing with their existing armies. They are not entitled to barebones prices on new releases, just as people aren't entitled to brand new cars for low costs, just because they are a previous customer of the company. GW is not unique in that regard to any other large corporation. The fact that they produce a product that people feel passionately about, does not entitle their fans to special treatment. The consumer ultimately has the choice whether or nor to support a company. If they are not happy with the cost or quality of the product, they are always free to take their business elsewhere.
Although the sad thing is that the chances are a lot of youngsters who might have say just been intrigued by a WD picked up from a news stand, or recognised a space marine from one of the computer games, will walk into GW (perhaps with their parents), look at the prices, and turn around and will never become a hobbyist as a result. There is just not the low budget option there any more, the tie-in MB games, or the Specialist games (the different types of games that would appeal beyond masses of soldiers ranked up on a GW gameboard), to help pull people in through the door and give them a chance to survive on pocket money as so many of us on this board would have done as children.
Admittedly it's now up to the other manufacturers to increase their presence and help pull people into wargaming (arguably PP have almost made that step, especially in the U.S. where there are a lot more independents), but I can't help but feel that, using your car sales analogy, there is a bog-standard Ford sat with no options in the showroom window, with a price tag 200% higher than it should be, obstructing the far snazzier, and more reasonably priced alternatives which are only just visible in the background. Customers walking past take one look in through the window, realise they don't have the money to take up driving, and just walk on.
The hobby needs fresh blood - GW have been instrumental in increasing the popularity of wargaming over the years, I will be the first to admit that the experience of walking into a store as a child was a magical one. But times have changed, since the company went public their thirst to maintain profit margins for the shareholders, and I think a complete departure from reality in what they can expect their customers to pay (regardless of what new label is put on the products) means that they will be operating in ever tightening circles.
44432
Post by: Raptor
Pacific wrote:Although the sad thing is that the chances are a lot of youngsters who might have say just been intrigued by a WD picked up from a news stand, or recognised a space marine from one of the computer games, will walk into GW (perhaps with their parents), look at the prices, and turn around and will never become a hobbyist as a result. There is just not the low budget option there any more, the tie-in MB games, or the Specialist games (the different types of games that would appeal beyond masses of soldiers ranked up on a GW gameboard), to help pull people in through the door and give them a chance to survive on pocket money as so many of us on this board would have done as children.
Admittedly it's now up to the other manufacturers to increase their presence and help pull people into wargaming (arguably PP have almost made that step, especially in the U.S. where there are a lot more independents), but I can't help but feel that, using your car sales analogy, there is a bog-standard Ford sat with no options in the showroom window, with a price tag 200% higher than it should be, obstructing the far snazzier, and more reasonably priced alternatives which are only just visible in the background. Customers walking past take one look in through the window, realise they don't have the money to take up driving, and just walk on.
The hobby needs fresh blood - GW have been instrumental in increasing the popularity of wargaming over the years, I will be the first to admit that the experience of walking into a store as a child was a magical one. But times have changed, since the company went public their thirst to maintain profit margins for the shareholders, and I think a complete departure from reality in what they can expect their customers to pay (regardless of what new label is put on the products) means that they will be operating in ever tightening circles.
This is a great point. I distinctly remember flipping through a White Dwarf in the late 80's and thinking a horde of plastic beakie Space Wolves was the coolest thing I had ever seen. Nothing in the hobby has ever been as cool as that period for me, in the game store, during the transition form RT to 2nd Ed. I remember miniatures felt like the logical progression from action figures and other "boy toys," more mature and artful but attainable in terms of the cost and skill. I wonder what a ten-twelve year old kid would think now looking at the models and their prices. (And the skill required for some of the bigger models.) Just getting a troop of thirty space marines is a different venture than in those days.
Maybe some other companies need to focus on developing new, affordable lines with expansive, rapidly-buildable armies of moderate quality. Or something like the MB tie-ins mentioned above, with tons of cool but relatively monopose warriors.
38451
Post by: Guildsman
Cadaver wrote:
Now to continue the car metaphor, they do require maintenance occasionally, i.e. new codexes, rulebooks, etc. But just as people can keep driving their older car, they can keep playing with their existing armies. They are not entitled to barebones prices on new releases, just as people aren't entitled to brand new cars for low costs, just because they are a previous customer of the company. GW is not unique in that regard to any other large corporation. The fact that they produce a product that people feel passionately about, does not entitle their fans to special treatment. The consumer ultimately has the choice whether or nor to support a company. If they are not happy with the cost or quality of the product, they are always free to take their business elsewhere.
With all due respect, I think that misrepresents the issue. I would compare the issue to maintaining a fancy car. It needs new parts and continuous maintenance to keep it functioning and road-legal, which we can compare to new codices and models to keep an army legal and competitive. If you buy a car, invest a lot of money in it, and then are priced out of maintaining it, wouldn't that upset you?
6515
Post by: Starfarer
Pacific wrote: Although the sad thing is that the chances are a lot of youngsters who might have say just been intrigued by a WD picked up from a news stand, or recognised a space marine from one of the computer games, will walk into GW (perhaps with their parents), look at the prices, and turn around and will never become a hobbyist as a result. There is just not the low budget option there any more, the tie-in MB games, or the Specialist games (the different types of games that would appeal beyond masses of soldiers ranked up on a GW gameboard), to help pull people in through the door and give them a chance to survive on pocket money as so many of us on this board would have done as children.
Admittedly it's now up to the other manufacturers to increase their presence and help pull people into wargaming (arguably PP have almost made that step, especially in the U.S. where there are a lot more independents), but I can't help but feel that, using your car sales analogy, there is a bog-standard Ford sat with no options in the showroom window, with a price tag 200% higher than it should be, obstructing the far snazzier, and more reasonably priced alternatives which are only just visible in the background. Customers walking past take one look in through the window, realise they don't have the money to take up driving, and just walk on.
The hobby needs fresh blood - GW have been instrumental in increasing the popularity of wargaming over the years, I will be the first to admit that the experience of walking into a store as a child was a magical one. But times have changed, since the company went public their thirst to maintain profit margins for the shareholders, and I think a complete departure from reality in what they can expect their customers to pay (regardless of what new label is put on the products) means that they will be operating in ever tightening circles.
I definitely agree Specialists Games should be a bigger focus. It allows people to get into the hobby without investing hundreds of dollars, let alone the time involved in painting larger armies. I exclusively play SGs these days, since the level of commitment I have allows me enough time to play smaller, quicker games I can get in on a weeknight with friends. I really hope there is either an option alternate rules set in 6th edition, like Kill Team was (although hopefully slightly more expansive) or alternatively, an expansion, which allows for smaller, yet balanced games using a variation of the core rules. I'm not optimistic, but a version of 40k that is in more direct competition with WarmaHordes would be great. I'd honestly have given Privateer Press a go if I could get over the look of their miniatures.
Guildsman wrote:
With all due respect, I think that misrepresents the issue. I would compare the issue to maintaining a fancy car. It needs new parts and continuous maintenance to keep it functioning and road-legal, which we can compare to new codices and models to keep an army legal and competitive. If you buy a car, invest a lot of money in it, and then are priced out of maintaining it, wouldn't that upset you?
I wouldn't say it's continuous maintenance, though. You're talking about a codex maybe every 3-4 years and a new rulebook maybe every 4-5 years. Keeping an army legal if you have an existing army is not hard. Most units don't bounce around FOC charts that often. Keeping an army competitive is another story, and also totally irrelevant, in my opinion. Playing the game or an army because you like the game and your army of choice is one thing, but keeping up with the tournament-minded meta game bloggers online is another. I don't think GW has any obligation to keep prices low for competitive play, and in fact they seem to do the opposite. The tournament crowd can win plenty of free stuff in prize support, even at the local level, so I don't empathize with that crowd having to buy newer models to stay at the top of the tournament crowd.
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Post by: LunaHound
DAWARBOSS wrote: Look how happy these people in japan with there overpriced miniatures look!, says GW
It was later reported the person was suffering from Cerebral Aneurysm due to shock from unknown cause.
6274
Post by: porkuslime
I suspect the the only Finecast I will be purchasing will be Plague Marines.. any miscasts will be easy to pass off as "disease" or "old pitted armor 10k years in use"..
But.. I also echo the "must see it in person to buy it"..
20880
Post by: loki old fart
LunaHound wrote:DAWARBOSS wrote: Look how happy these people in japan with there overpriced miniatures look!, says GW
It was later reported the person was suffering from Cerebral Aneurysm due to shock from unknown cause.
The first time LunaHound's got me to laugh 
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Post by: Phototoxin
Went into GeeDub to checkout this finecast stuff for myself...
It doesn't look a lot better than metal. It still has flash and mould lines and some dire vents (lelith hesperax with what looked like a beard!)
In addition I seen a DE archon which had so much flash that it looked as if half of the sprue had a sheet of plastic over it.. very poor.
I think this is the beginning of the end.
28635
Post by: doghouse
For those that are interested I just did an over night stripping test on some spare bits of sprue using Fairy Power spray.
I normally strip FW resin minis in the stuff and have had no problems sometimes leaving the stuff in the mix for days so I was eager to see the results.
The result was that it did clean the stuff really well...
...unfortunately though it has softened the material a great deal, the bits of flash that I left on the sprues have also basically turned to rubber. :(
Given the fact that there is a lot of fine detail like pointing fingers or swords I strongly recommend that you don't use fairy power spray unless you like rubber minis.
I'll give it another try leaving it in the mix for half an hour and see how that works.
3906
Post by: Stella Cadente
probably another way to make you spend more
"I wanna repaint this mini"
*strips mini and it turns to rubber*
"oh no now I have to spend another £569 on 1 barely 2 inch model that was already ful of holes, oh well mommy and daddy will buy it for me because they are rich and dumb...like me YAY"
10920
Post by: Goliath
Stella Cadente wrote:probably another way to make you spend more
"I wanna repaint this mini"
*strips mini and it turns to rubber*
"oh no now I have to spend another £569 on 1 barely 2 inch model that was already ful of holes, oh well mommy and daddy will buy it for me because they are rich and dumb...like me YAY"
Wow...
You managed to be a crackpot conspiracy theorist, insulting to a large number of people, and made 3 sweeping generalisations, in 4 lines.
Impressive.
I might as well point out the errors in your argument rather than just comment on the crass nature of your post.
1. We don't know whether the "turning to rubber" was a property of the resin, or whether the model just got left in for too long.
2. No models cost £569
3. Not every "child who plays Warhammer"'s parents are rich, the child could be spending all of their pocket money on models/ be brought them as a birthday present.
4. Are you insinuating that every child who plays warhammer is dumb, as are their parents? Because there are a lot of parents on this forum, and there are a fair number of "teaching my son/daughter to paint" threads. I'm fairly sure that they would disagree with you.
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Post by: Samus_aran115
nectarprime wrote:puma713 wrote:BrassScorpion wrote:Then my point stands. The Shokk Attack Gun is a lot more than just a Big Mek mini and it was always much more expensive than the other Big Mek miniatures. People refer to that kit as the Shokk Attack Gun, not a Big Mek. It's the artillery piece in the kit that sells it, if people want just a Big Mek they buy a Big Mek, not an expensive Shokk Attack Gun. Go ahead, think about that for a while and stop being obtuse, silly and rude.
Actually, your point doesn't stand at all. You said my statement was false. It wasn't false. The model is a Big Mek (I can give you the website addy if you want, but you seem proficient enough to look it up for yourself), not a "Shokk Attack Gun", no matter what people call it. So, pointing out that a Big Mek being $38, which is almost as much as Killa Kans at $44.50 isn't fallacious in any regard. Whatsoever.
Seems like you were being rude in the first place. And obtuse. But I'm not sure the latter was as intentional as the former.
You mad son?
I loled. Take it easy
Chaos Dreadnought isn't in resin yet, is it? Yes! I can still get a metal bawkes
34906
Post by: Pacific
Cadaver wrote:
I definitely agree Specialists Games should be a bigger focus. It allows people to get into the hobby without investing hundreds of dollars, let alone the time involved in painting larger armies. I exclusively play SGs these days, since the level of commitment I have allows me enough time to play smaller, quicker games I can get in on a weeknight with friends. I really hope there is either an option alternate rules set in 6th edition, like Kill Team was (although hopefully slightly more expansive) or alternatively, an expansion, which allows for smaller, yet balanced games using a variation of the core rules. I'm not optimistic, but a version of 40k that is in more direct competition with WarmaHordes would be great. I'd honestly have given Privateer Press a go if I could get over the look of their miniatures.
.
Not sure if you have tried it, but have you considered Infinity? I so wish I had discovered it a couple of years ago, the game system and models are absolutely superb, it's just so ... hmmm... I think 'dynamic' is the word that best suits it.
5245
Post by: Buzzsaw
Goliath wrote:Stella Cadente wrote:probably another way to make you spend more
"I wanna repaint this mini"
*strips mini and it turns to rubber*
"oh no now I have to spend another £569 on 1 barely 2 inch model that was already ful of holes, oh well mommy and daddy will buy it for me because they are rich and dumb...like me YAY"
Wow...
You managed to be a crackpot conspiracy theorist, insulting to a large number of people, and made 3 sweeping generalisations, in 4 lines.
<snip>
This reminds me of some wisdom I heard long ago...
28635
Post by: doghouse
Goliath wrote:Stella Cadente wrote:probably another way to make you spend more
1. We don't know whether the "turning to rubber" was a property of the resin, or whether the model just got left in for too long.
Yeah my thoughts exactly, I'm going to try a half hour strip test next which works on most models. It also might be something in the power spray reacting with the material and maybe something else like simple green may not have such an adverse effect, but don't know about that one.
Regular FW resin survives in the stuff really well though which is why I wanted to do a proper test first then play around to see what happens.
I'm going to chuck the bits in the freezer for a while and see if that has any effect on the finer bits as at the moment the biggest problem is the results of the flash which was rubberised the most. Basically it's as flexible as the bristles on a brush on the test flash bits, has no resistance what so ever.
3720
Post by: brettz123
BrassScorpion wrote:Your response to "This stuff costs too much" seems to be "Well they could have made it cost more! Are you happy now?!" with a dash of "They were going to make it cost more anyway so HA!" thrown in. It doesn't really even address the "This stuff costs too much" argument, much less invalidate it as you seem to be thinking it should.
You're inferring an awful lot that just is not there.
My point, which I thought I made abundantly clear in plain English, was that saying Finecast is a rip-off specifically was fallacious. GW prices are high and they just went up again. It would have happened whether or not the blister pack models were still pewter or not. In other words, the issue of price is there regardless of Finecast, not because of it. I didn't say discussing whether or not prices are too high was not a legitimate topic, nor was I specifically defending or criticizing the prices though I added some comments of my own about pricing getting rather high (e.g., Catachans). People who were paying attention may have noticed that. There does seem to be some misguided attempts by some, however, to blame all the price issues on Finecast and I don't believe that's a valid idea, nor do I believe Finecast is any more or less a rip-off depending on one's perspective on the matter than the rest of the GW product line.
If there was less getting exercise jumping to conclusions on forums then every post with a slightly complex idea wouldn't require multiple explanations and these threads would be a lot less cluttered.
Very good points that I mostly agree with the cost was going to go up anyway just like every other year..... the problem is that GW wasn't smart enough to separate the release of Finecast with the price increase. It would have gone over much better if they had waited several months for the price increase. This way in the mind of gamers the price increase would not have been because of Finecast. Automatically Appended Next Post: Cadaver wrote:
However, no one will bemoan, say Lexus, because I am priced out of the GS 460. There are always other, more reasonably priced cars to purchase. Just as their are lower priced models available, although usually of lesser quality. The difference for most people, is that they already own armies, yet they want the newer models, but they don't actually need them.
Now to continue the car metaphor, they do require maintenance occasionally, i.e. new codexes, rulebooks, etc. But just as people can keep driving their older car, they can keep playing with their existing armies. They are not entitled to barebones prices on new releases, just as people aren't entitled to brand new cars for low costs, just because they are a previous customer of the company. GW is not unique in that regard to any other large corporation. The fact that they produce a product that people feel passionately about, does not entitle their fans to special treatment. The consumer ultimately has the choice whether or nor to support a company. If they are not happy with the cost or quality of the product, they are always free to take their business elsewhere.
I'm not sure this is a good analogy. People need to keep up their car or buy a new one eventually to continue using it. This is not the case with GW miniatures. Someone can still use their miniatures old miniatures (generally speaking of course) and never need to upgrade. GW should be actively getting people to not only upgrade their old miniatures but to buy a second or third army. Large price increases certainly hurt them in this area.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
Regarding Finecast, I am amused at how many convulsions of praise and apologetics 40k Radio can fit into their piece about GW's new direction, all the while underestimating and insulting the intelligence of anyone who disagrees with them. Classic Battlefoam, in fact.
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Post by: aka_mythos
I'm just amused that everyone complained about how much they hated metal miniatures for the longest time. Now they're gone and people complain that they're gone. I understand we hate price hikes but those would have happend anyway. People wanted more plastic, these are plastic in the only way achievable at this scale and volume of production. Aside from the price, I really think this is generally a good thing.
brettz123 wrote:Very good points that I mostly agree with the cost was going to go up anyway just like every other year..... the problem is that GW wasn't smart enough to separate the release of Finecast with the price increase. It would have gone over much better if they had waited several months for the price increase. This way in the mind of gamers the price increase would not have been because of Finecast.
People probably would have taken to Finecast better if GW had raised the price of the metal miniatures inline with expectations and then brought the price down to the the Finecast ranges release price.
Stella Cadente wrote:
"I wanna repaint this mini"
*strips mini and it turns to rubber*
"oh no now I have to spend another £569 on 1 barely 2 inch model that was already ful of holes, oh well mommy and daddy will buy it for me because they are rich and dumb...like me YAY"
GW has no obligation to make its products compatible with aftermarket cleaning agents. There are chemicals you could use to clean paint that'd do the same to plastic. There are chemicals to remove paint that could digest metal. GW isn't responsible for what you do.
When I haven't been sure about what chemicals might do to a model... I soak them in soapy water overnight and use a dental pick to pull the paint off.
5256
Post by: NAVARRO
Agamemnon2 wrote:Regarding Finecast, I am amused at how many convulsions of praise and apologetics 40k Radio can fit into their piece about GW's new direction, all the while underestimating and insulting the intelligence of anyone who disagrees with them. Classic Battlefoam, in fact.
I dont listen to the channel but glad to see they have some i ndependent view on finecasts
Time for a fridge mini bag.
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Post by: brettz123
aka_mythos wrote:
brettz123 wrote:Very good points that I mostly agree with the cost was going to go up anyway just like every other year..... the problem is that GW wasn't smart enough to separate the release of Finecast with the price increase. It would have gone over much better if they had waited several months for the price increase. This way in the mind of gamers the price increase would not have been because of Finecast.
People probably would have taken to Finecast better if GW had raised the price of the metal miniatures inline with expectations and then brought the price down to the the Finecast ranges release price.
True they could have done any number of things but they should never have released Finecast and raised the price at virtually the same time. Poor planning.
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Post by: DarkStarSabre
Yep. The issue was the two coinciding.
Though it probably didn't help that some miniatures released less than 2 months previous (Grey Knights, Orcs, DE) were re-released with a price rise as well.
Friend pointed out a better plan.
Start of year - announce there will be no new metals. Release finecast instead - all new stuff in new medium. Then gradually phase older metals out and re-release as finecast.
It should have been a gradual thing instead of what we did get.
And the first things released should have been key elements for each army - characters, one or two special units, monster.
Instead we get some armies that are practically all finecast and plastic (Dark Eldar...) and others that got practically nothing (Lizardmen only got Kroq Gar - leaving all the skink characters, the terradons, kroxigor, salamanders, razordons, chameleon skinks, saurus characters and slann in the lurch!).
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Post by: nectarprime
DarkStarSabre wrote:
Instead we get some armies that are practically all finecast and plastic (Dark Eldar...) and others that got practically nothing (Lizardmen only got Kroq Gar - leaving all the skink characters, the terradons, kroxigor, salamanders, razordons, chameleon skinks, saurus characters and slann in the lurch!).
You forgot about Ogres--- they got NO Finecast models at all.
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Post by: DarkStarSabre
nectarprime wrote:You forgot about Ogres--- they got NO Finecast models at all.
Nor Witchhunters or Necrons.
However if you read the other rumour threads Ogres, Sisters of Battle and Necrons are -all- currently being rumoured as WIP for updates - makes sense the next few armies to be updated don't get stuff because, well, pipeline already. But I doubt Lizardmen are due to be updated any time soon and I've heard nary a peep about Tau.
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Post by: Eilif
doghouse wrote:For those that are interested I just did an over night stripping test on some spare bits of sprue using Fairy Power spray.
I normally strip FW resin minis in the stuff and have had no problems sometimes leaving the stuff in the mix for days so I was eager to see the results.
The result was that it did clean the stuff really well...
...unfortunately though it has softened the material a great deal, the bits of flash that I left on the sprues have also basically turned to rubber. :(
Given the fact that there is a lot of fine detail like pointing fingers or swords I strongly recommend that you don't use fairy power spray unless you like rubber minis.
I'll give it another try leaving it in the mix for half an hour and see how that works.
This raises another very intersting point about finecast.
If finecast is a more difficult material to strip without damaging the model itself, I don't believe for a moment that GW isn't aware of it and pleased. Whether it was a major factor in their decisions is unknowable.
Simple green and other "safe" stripping agents might work well (I'll make a point to buy a painted finecast in a year or two) but as Finecast has already been shown to not react well to files, it makes one wonder what effect vigorous scrubbing with a stiff bristle brush would have on it. Also, will the relative porosity (compared to metal or plastic) make it more difficult to remove the paint?
I know I am not alone in appreciating the fact that with the correct application of chemicals, metal models can almost always be returned to a nearly new appearance. I doubt that finecast will have this ability, in fact I suspect it will be worse than plastic in this regard.
Taking the discussion even further. What effect might finecast have on the second hand GW market?
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Post by: sarpedons-right-hand
Wow...
You managed to be a crackpot conspiracy theorist, insulting to a large number of people, and made 3 sweeping generalisations, in 4 lines.
Impressive.
I might as well point out the errors in your argument rather than just comment on the crass nature of your post.
1. We don't know whether the "turning to rubber" was a property of the resin, or whether the model just got left in for too long.
2. No models cost £569
3. Not every "child who plays Warhammer"'s parents are rich, the child could be spending all of their pocket money on models/ be brought them as a birthday present.
4. Are you insinuating that every child who plays warhammer is dumb, as are their parents? Because there are a lot of parents on this forum, and there are a fair number of "teaching my son/daughter to paint" threads. I'm fairly sure that they would disagree with you.
Whoa, some people cant take a joke huh?
Of course no model costs £569! Its called sarcasm......would you like me to spell it out for you? In crayon? If you like you can PM me with your address and ill send you my copy of 'Spot's Guide To Humour'.
Its a pop up, so should be fine for you....
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Post by: warboss
doghouse wrote:For those that are interested I just did an over night stripping test on some spare bits of sprue using Fairy Power spray.
I normally strip FW resin minis in the stuff and have had no problems sometimes leaving the stuff in the mix for days so I was eager to see the results.
The result was that it did clean the stuff really well...
...unfortunately though it has softened the material a great deal, the bits of flash that I left on the sprues have also basically turned to rubber. :(
Given the fact that there is a lot of fine detail like pointing fingers or swords I strongly recommend that you don't use fairy power spray unless you like rubber minis.
I'll give it another try leaving it in the mix for half an hour and see how that works.
Anyone know the equivalent of fairy power in the US? I don't plan on buying any failmiscast minis so I won't be able to help you much but it's probably a good idea that we get a list of cleaning agents commonly used across the world and their effect (or lack of) on the new material. If anything, I'd suggest cutting a few notches in the excess sprue around a model, then painting it (making sure paint gets in those notches to simulate detail) and stripping only that piece so as not to damage the actual miniature (like you did). Also, even after the initial test is over, leave the piece in the solution. The reason I say this is that I had alot of trouble stripping a resin model with simple green (don't know if it was the variety of paint as I bought it second hand) and tested a piece of FW sprue in brake fluid to make sure it didn't damage it. After a few days, the piece was fine so I successfully stripped the resin mini without any problem... and promptly forgot about that test piece of sprue at the bottom of the cup. When I emptied the container of the brake fluid a month later, the resin was soft and rubberly like you described. While it probably wasn't the deciding factor in choosing the material, the lessened chance of being able to successfully strip second hand minis is probably marked off as a "pro" and not a "con" in GW"s books as that will lead to more first hand sales.
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Post by: bubber
What gets me about all this is peoples' acceptance over the odd flaw & saying things like 'it'll just take a bit of green stuff to sort that out'.
We are now being asked to pay a premium on a range that is called 'Finecast'.
In my mind there should be no need to fix any flaws - a bit of cleaning up, yes but not having to fill in holes and remodel a gun's iron sight.
I feel most sorry for kids who will get a charater model for their birthday or at Christmas. This will most probably be bought by someone who doesn't realise that they should check the model in the blister to make sure it's all good. Then the child will open it and he/she will not realise that there are details / swords / iron sights missing.
I am really worried about how many boxes I demand to be opened in the store when i buy an elite squad box (which is not see through) before I am satisfied with the models.
As a (very very very minor) shareholder I think I will write a letter (not e-mail) to GW and might CC the trade descriptions people (Office of Fair Trading?? - can someone confirm please).
Thoughts....
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Post by: Eilif
bubber wrote:What gets me about all this is peoples' acceptance over the odd flaw & saying things like 'it'll just take a bit of green stuff to sort that out'.
We are now being asked to pay a premium on a range that is called 'Finecast'.
In my mind there should be no need to fix any flaws.
I agree. My tolerance for repairing models operates on a sliding scale depending on the price of the model.
For the price of finecast, they should arrive trimmed of sprue and free of defect.
For all the hype and the premium price, the simple fact is that the finecast product has unacceptably high rate of flaws.
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Post by: aka_mythos
Eilif wrote:I agree. My tolerance for repairing models operates on a sliding scale depending on the price of the model.
For the price of finecast, they should arrive trimmed of sprue and free of defect.
For all the hype and the premium price, the simple fact is that the finecast product has unacceptably high rate of flaws.
In fairness its no different and no more work than how GW recommends using greenstuff to smooth and fill out the joints when you assembled metal miniatures.
Forgeworld models are more costly, don't come free of flaws and aren't trimmed off their sprue. So what basis are you using to say "for the price...they should..."?
I think the vast majority of defects are dealing with the fact that they released over a hundred blisters in a single go and that it likely was more than they normally have to deal with, given a normal release schedule of just 5 or 6 new blisters a month. Once they move from a high production rate to build stock and into a lower production rate to maintain it, their quality control should pick itself up. If you have defects complain and GW will replace your model, same as they always have.
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Post by: Rymafyr
Personally, I'd say for the price of fine cast, they should arrive de-sprued, cleaned and painted by a member of the 'Eavy Metal team.
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Post by: Alendrel
aka_mythos wrote:Eilif wrote:I agree. My tolerance for repairing models operates on a sliding scale depending on the price of the model.
For the price of finecast, they should arrive trimmed of sprue and free of defect.
For all the hype and the premium price, the simple fact is that the finecast product has unacceptably high rate of flaws.
In fairness its no different and no more work than how GW recommends using greenstuff to smooth and fill out the joints when you assembled metal miniatures.
Forgeworld models are more costly, don't come free of flaws and aren't trimmed off their sprue. So what basis are you using to say "for the price...they should..."?
I think the vast majority of defects are dealing with the fact that they released over a hundred blisters in a single go and that it likely was more than they normally have to deal with, given a normal release schedule of just 5 or 6 new blisters a month. Once they move from a high production rate to build stock and into a lower production rate to maintain it, their quality control should pick itself up. If you have defects complain and GW will replace your model, same as they always have.
It is different. I expect to sometimes have to do fit work between pieces, that's an unavoidable (though minimazible) aspect of multi-part cast models. I do not expect have to sculpt missing or damaged portions of models.
Forgeworld is a smaller, in-house cottage operation, so I expect higher prices due to low volume. Even so, I'd expect replacement for the same miscasts my Finecast models displayed.
While we can hope they will improve their quality control with Finecast, a lot of the damage is already done. People that have gotten poorly cast models are feeling burned, and that loss of customer confidence should be be worrisome to GW. I, for one, will be waiting months before I consider another Finecast purchase, and even then, I'm going to be more critical than I'd have been if my original purchase was to expectations.
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Post by: Noisy_Marine
I agree that finecast models ought to come off the sprue and flawless.
I was going to suggest someone try stripping finecast with simple green, but that apparently doesn't work on FW models. Maybe super clean?
EDIT:
Honestly I don't see all the extra detail that is supposed to be on finecast models. The resin Abbadon I looked at looked just like my metal one as far as I can tell. The big upside to finecast models seems, to me, to be the decreased weight over metal models.
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Post by: Eilif
Alendrel wrote:aka_mythos wrote:]In fairness its no different and no more work than how GW recommends using greenstuff to smooth and fill out the joints when you assembled metal miniatures.
Forgeworld models are more costly, don't come free of flaws and aren't trimmed off their sprue. So what basis are you using to say "for the price...they should..."?
I think the vast majority of defects are dealing with the fact that they released over a hundred blisters in a single go and that it likely was more than they normally have to deal with, given a normal release schedule of just 5 or 6 new blisters a month. Once they move from a high production rate to build stock and into a lower production rate to maintain it, their quality control should pick itself up. If you have defects complain and GW will replace your model, same as they always have.
It is different. I expect to sometimes have to do fit work between pieces, that's an unavoidable (though minimazible) aspect of multi-part cast models. I do not expect have to sculpt missing or damaged portions of models.
This.
Also, as to the Forge world comparison.
1) I'm not using Forgeworld as my basis for comparison, because I don't think that forgewold models are worth the price either. My basis of comparison for judging GW is their own hype and the cost. However, if driven to a specific comparision, I'd note that for the cost, they come with far more flaws than "expensive" models like Infinity.
2) That said, FW gets a partial pass from me due to it being a limited run product and one aimed specifically at the experienced older modeler. Finecast is neither.
Lastly, we may be working from somewhat different points of refference. You seem to believe that the finecast product, without defect, is worth the asking price. Though I would expect such a high priced model to come trimmed, clean and free of defect, I still don't think that a Finecast model, presented in that condition, is worth the prices that GW is asking.
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Post by: nectarprime
bubber wrote:What gets me about all this is peoples' acceptance over the odd flaw & saying things like 'it'll just take a bit of green stuff to sort that out'.
We are now being asked to pay a premium on a range that is called 'Finecast'.
In my mind there should be no need to fix any flaws - a bit of cleaning up, yes but not having to fill in holes and remodel a gun's iron sight.
I feel most sorry for kids who will get a charater model for their birthday or at Christmas. This will most probably be bought by someone who doesn't realise that they should check the model in the blister to make sure it's all good. Then the child will open it and he/she will not realise that there are details / swords / iron sights missing.
I am really worried about how many boxes I demand to be opened in the store when i buy an elite squad box (which is not see through) before I am satisfied with the models.
As a (very very very minor) shareholder I think I will write a letter (not e-mail) to GW and might CC the trade descriptions people (Office of Fair Trading?? - can someone confirm please).
Thoughts....
Yup. It does suck.
But, any defect you can just take to a GW store and have replaced.
FWIW, many other models that are not Finecast really need GS to look good. If you don't use GS on the Giant model from WHFB you will have giant seems all the way around. So it's not like guaranteed GSing is a new thing.
(I didn't use GS on my Giant and every time I look at it I get pissed off!!)
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Post by: aka_mythos
Alendrel wrote: It is different. I expect to sometimes have to do fit work between pieces, that's an unavoidable (though minimazible) aspect of multi-part cast models. I do not expect have to sculpt missing or damaged portions of models.
Forgeworld is a smaller, in-house cottage operation, so I expect higher prices due to low volume. Even so, I'd expect replacement for the same miscasts my Finecast models displayed.
No ones saying to accept major defects. GW has always shown a willingness to replace those. So when I'm talking about filling, its only with regards to dealing with minor blemishes... that are acceptable but maybe not ideal.
Also you're not quite interpreting my second line of thought right. I wrote:Forgeworld models are more costly, don't come free of flaws and aren't trimmed off their sprue. So what basis are you using to say "for the price...they should..."?
People don't want to clean off these miniatures despite the fact they always had to before, despite the fact that more boutique products still require you to. This is a product more similar in manufacturing and material to FW than to GW's metal miniatures.
I was asking the other poster, why he and presumably you, think something that takes you one or two minutes should be done inclusively to the cost, when nothing like that has ever been done before. The extra costs of dealing with trimming sprues... cutting tools, containers to move parts in, cost to re-sort parts when packaging and/or check the presence of all parts... and a GW employees minutes... then profit margin for the investment of those resources. Do you really want to add $5 dollars to this already high price tag?
Alendrel wrote:
While we can hope they will improve their quality control with Finecast, a lot of the damage is already done. People that have gotten poorly cast models are feeling burned, and that loss of customer confidence should be be worrisome to GW. I, for one, will be waiting months before I consider another Finecast purchase, and even then, I'm going to be more critical than I'd have been if my original purchase was to expectations.
You're within your right to feel that way, but if you or others are getting defective miniatures, return them, get a refund or exchange them. Alot of the people who have posted defects have a tone of pouting acceptance of the situation. These people rather than paint these, convert these, etc need to engage GW and get what they paid for rather than just complain to an online community that has not actually ability to satisfy your woe.
In the 12+ years I've purchased GW miniatures, I have recieved about 8 defective kits... everything from a whirlwind and landraider missing individual pieces to a leman russ with a miscast turret... to a metal marine scout missing a head and arm... in every instance GW has replaced models completely... leaving me with in essence two of a kit... and a couple of times GW even threw in freebies... a free seer council and a squad of SoB... even a $15 gift card. Point is they have a history of putting their money where their mouth is when it comes to defects and if people step up GW will correct the errors.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eilif wrote:
...Lastly, we may be working from somewhat different points of refference. You seem to believe that the finecast product, without defect, is worth the asking price. Though I would expect such a high priced model to come trimmed, clean and free of defect, I still don't think that a Finecast model, presented in that condition, is worth the prices that GW is asking.
I think you've really made it clear you're problem is just GW pricing... you're confusing the situation by saying your problem is with "finecast." Finecast is GW's attempt to bridge the product line between plastic models and FW models, so ignoring that is ignoring GW's motives and expectations, which I think is half the story. I think you've come to the same point many others have: Games Workshop is too expensive for you and you really shouldn't buy it; you should find other interests.
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Post by: Alendrel
I don't think that parts of models should come pre-cleaned. I think they should come pre-sculpted ETA: And when I say fitwork, I do include doing necessary green stuffing there.
And I will be returning all these items this weekend, and I've sent an email to GW explaining, calmly and in, detail my issues and dissatisfaction, with a link to my photobucket album. Their customer service is still top notch, though they are starting to shift away from the generosity of old. When I had an issue with a miscast on one of the legs of my Grey Knight Terminator kit back in April, they had me identify the specific leg (hooray for numbered components) and sent me just that one, whereas in the past, yes, they had sent out new kits for similar one-piece miscasts. It will be interesting to see if that is the new trend with replacements for plastic and Finecast: full kit replacements as a matter of course, or just the specific parts (up to full kits as needed).
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Post by: Eilif
aka_mythos wrote:I think you've really made it clear you're problem is just GW pricing... you're confusing the situation by saying your problem is with "finecast." Finecast is GW's attempt to bridge the product line between plastic models and FW models, so ignoring that is ignoring GW's motives and expectations, which I think is half the story. .
Not true. I've made no secret that my biggest issue is GW's pricing. However, that is in no way mutually exclusive to my asessment that GW's hype and pricepoint for Finecast should be reflected in a higher quality, better prepared product.
aka_mythos wrote: I think you've come to the same point many others have: Games Workshop is too expensive for you and you really shouldn't buy it; you should find other interests.
Perhaps you didn't mean this the way it looks in print, but if you did...
It's quite presumptuous to judge what is too expensive for someone whose finances you are not familiar with. I can afford GW at retail, but I choose to put my money into a variety of more reasonably priced alternatives (and some used GW products) in order to get more for my $.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
aka_mythos wrote:Eilif wrote:I agree. My tolerance for repairing models operates on a sliding scale depending on the price of the model.
For the price of finecast, they should arrive trimmed of sprue and free of defect.
For all the hype and the premium price, the simple fact is that the finecast product has unacceptably high rate of flaws.
In fairness its no different and no more work than how GW recommends using greenstuff to smooth and fill out the joints when you assembled metal miniatures.
Forgeworld models are more costly, don't come free of flaws and aren't trimmed off their sprue. So what basis are you using to say "for the price...they should..."?
... .
The point is that GW named Finecast the best miniatures in the world.
They aren't.
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Post by: NAVARRO
Kilkrazy wrote:aka_mythos wrote:Eilif wrote:I agree. My tolerance for repairing models operates on a sliding scale depending on the price of the model.
For the price of finecast, they should arrive trimmed of sprue and free of defect.
For all the hype and the premium price, the simple fact is that the finecast product has unacceptably high rate of flaws.
In fairness its no different and no more work than how GW recommends using greenstuff to smooth and fill out the joints when you assembled metal miniatures.
Forgeworld models are more costly, don't come free of flaws and aren't trimmed off their sprue. So what basis are you using to say "for the price...they should..."?
... .
The point is that GW named Finecast the best miniatures in the world.
They aren't.
Its not even a fine cast.
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Post by: Bloodwin
Kilkrazy wrote:The point is that GW named Finecast the best miniatures in the world.
They aren't.
*** sarcasm alert ***
I thought that it was advertising hype, like most companies do. I didn't know that when GW said anything it became a holy writ. When GW talk about 'the hobby' I have always read it as 'the hobby of collecting GW miniatures' not the sum total of life on Earth as we know it. I'd like to see some decent figures on the scale of miscasts. It seems to me like it was a rush job because they were launching a new product across their three games systems. Even if they got in extra labour there would be less skilled people casting the figures. I agree with some of the trepidation people have for younger players possibly being disappointed with their first figure but that's nothing new compared to trying to put together my first metal dragon in the 80s. I am wary that forums make it seem like there are more problems than is really the case. Like most people I will be wary of buying Finecast models unseen but in truth that goes for all models, it feels as if it is highlighted because its a big change and the product is directly comparable to old models in metal. (edit) It should be noted that we are rather spoilt by Citadel's plastic range so we aren't used to defects.
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Post by: insaniak
Bloodwin wrote:I thought that it was advertising hype, like most companies do....
Of course it was advertising hype.
But the danger of using this sort of hype is that if your product doesn't go far enough towards living up to that hype, it can backfire.
Stating that your product is the best thing ever and then having it be pretty good... that'll satisfy most people.
Stating that your product is the best thing ever and then releasing something that looks like the efforts of a fairly inexperienced garage company... not so much.
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Post by: Hologram
NAVARRO wrote:
Its not even a fine cast.
Lets be fair, "SameCast" just doesn't have the same ring to it...
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Post by: Alendrel
insaniak wrote:Bloodwin wrote:I thought that it was advertising hype, like most companies do....
Of course it was advertising hype.
But the danger of using this sort of hype is that if your product doesn't go far enough towards living up to that hype, it can backfire.
Stating that your product is the best thing ever and then having it be pretty good... that'll satisfy most people.
Stating that your product is the best thing ever and then releasing something that looks like the efforts of a fairly inexperienced garage company... not so much.
Aye. I honestly wasn't expecting anything better (detail/appearance-wise) than what I'd expect of a good metal casting, not the bestest evers miniatures GW was hyping. What I got didn't even come close to that, or GW's previous offerings.
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Post by: Balance
Noisy_Marine wrote:Honestly I don't see all the extra detail that is supposed to be on finecast models. The resin Abbadon I looked at looked just like my metal one as far as I can tell. The big upside to finecast models seems, to me, to be the decreased weight over metal models.
From what it looks like on the current minis the only difference is some slight 'crispness' difference due to how molten metal vs. liquid resin fills in small details. The models appear to be made from the same masters.
On the other hand, it's possible that one things are getting designed and sculpted with the new process in mind there may be some increase in fine details, but I wouldn't expect anything amazing. Maybe a bit finer small details like filigree on armor.
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Post by: MajorTom11
http://massivevoodoo.blogspot.com/2011/06/games-workshops-finecast-review.html
Even Massive Voodoo ran into the same issues, and I trust them 100%.
Note, in the above review, they show a primered side by side of the metal and resin, and there is no difference in the level of detail.
It seems to me resin photographs better, so doing side by sides without primering both to put them both on even footing is misleading. I am also sure that in some case, such as the Carnosaur, it does look like there is more detail...
What a crapshoot - Automatically Appended Next Post: 
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Post by: Augustus
Yea that massive voodoo review was pretty good. The side by side primered images were very telling. Well done! Thanks for sharing that!
Im surprised they didn't comment on the durability, I don't expect resin to hold up well (to transport and play), but then, they seem like fine painters and perhaps not players? Speculative on my part...
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Post by: nectarprime
Good review from Voodoo, but that guy sure did spray the primer on thick judging by that picture!
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Post by: Augustus
Yea it looks a little textured on the bodies doesnt it? Hmm.
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Post by: Rymafyr
nectarprime wrote:Good review from Voodoo, but that guy sure did spray the primer on thick judging by that picture!
Augustus wrote:Yea it looks a little textured on the bodies doesnt it? Hmm.
C'mon you two can do better than that!
1. Obviously they are both metal models!
2. Why'd they use the same model but put it on a different base!
Probably about 10 other sarcastic comments I could make but the truth of the matter is this: At this scale...no amount of clarity of detail is going to be retained once you start laying primer and paint on a model. In short the 'better detail' argument is moot.
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Post by: Pacific
Eilif wrote:
Perhaps you didn't mean this the way it looks in print, but if you did...
It's quite presumptuous to judge what is too expensive for someone whose finances you are not familiar with. I can afford GW at retail, but I choose to put my money into a variety of more reasonably priced alternatives (and some used GW products) in order to get more for my $.
Come on mate this is the internet, you should always give people the benefit of the doubt
aka_mythos is one of the more polite posters on here, I took the comment as 'if the cost is more than you are willing to pay for it, then find another interest'
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Post by: Starfarer
Pacific wrote:Cadaver wrote:
I definitely agree Specialists Games should be a bigger focus. It allows people to get into the hobby without investing hundreds of dollars, let alone the time involved in painting larger armies. I exclusively play SGs these days, since the level of commitment I have allows me enough time to play smaller, quicker games I can get in on a weeknight with friends. I really hope there is either an option alternate rules set in 6th edition, like Kill Team was (although hopefully slightly more expansive) or alternatively, an expansion, which allows for smaller, yet balanced games using a variation of the core rules. I'm not optimistic, but a version of 40k that is in more direct competition with WarmaHordes would be great. I'd honestly have given Privateer Press a go if I could get over the look of their miniatures.
.
Not sure if you have tried it, but have you considered Infinity? I so wish I had discovered it a couple of years ago, the game system and models are absolutely superb, it's just so ... hmmm... I think 'dynamic' is the word that best suits it.
I have not, although I have looked through their model line a number of times. Their stuff looks great from a purely aesthestic perspective. However, in that regard I can consider myself a GW "fanboy" in that I'm really not that big of a tabletop gamer. I like 40k because of the background that GW has created, as well as a certain level of nostalgia from having collected GW models over the past 15 years. Other games like Infinity, Privateer Press and Malifaux, while having some cool aspects, just don't appeal to me beyond a certain appreciation for the models. In my opinion, none of these companies can compare to the design that GW has created for their universe.
brettz123 wrote:Cadaver wrote:
Now to continue the car metaphor, they do require maintenance occasionally, i.e. new codexes, rulebooks, etc. But just as people can keep driving their older car, they can keep playing with their existing armies. They are not entitled to barebones prices on new releases, just as people aren't entitled to brand new cars for low costs, just because they are a previous customer of the company. GW is not unique in that regard to any other large corporation. The fact that they produce a product that people feel passionately about, does not entitle their fans to special treatment. The consumer ultimately has the choice whether or nor to support a company. If they are not happy with the cost or quality of the product, they are always free to take their business elsewhere.
I'm not sure this is a good analogy. People need to keep up their car or buy a new one eventually to continue using it. This is not the case with GW miniatures. Someone can still use their miniatures old miniatures (generally speaking of course) and never need to upgrade. GW should be actively getting people to not only upgrade their old miniatures but to buy a second or third army. Large price increases certainly hurt them in this area.
The exact point I was making is that people don't need to upgrade their miniatures. Strictly speaking, people don't even need to upgrade the codexes or rulebooks if they are happy with a current edition and have a group that wants to keep playing that edition.
But as far as price increases, I would argue that in most cases, the diehard gamers are going to upgrade, and going to keep purchasing, regardless of price increases. Yes, some will not buy as much, but GW's current business model seems to focus on recouping losses in sales but increases in prices for their product. That's fine if that's how they want to run their company, and I don't feel that I am entitled to lower prices, even as a longtime customer. The simple fact is they are promoting their product in a way that does not appeal to me as a customer. I am in most cases forced to go to eBay for my Necromunda purchases, as GW does not offer that full line, nor do they offer a skirmish level game for 40k. If they did I would certainly have small forces for Daemons, Dark Eldar, CSMs, and probably a few others if I could use these models in a small scale game. My issue is simply time, and not necessarily the cost of the product. If GW was a little more business savvy they should realize a smaller scale version of 40k - whether it be available in the main rulebook(preferable, IMO) or as an expansion - would not only be a better introductory method for new customers, but also a way for more current customers to have a reason to purchase the "flavor of the month" codex, they would probably experience greater sales across the board. Not only that, but they could also have a platform to compete more directly with the smaller scale competitors out there.
I'd honestly love to give GW more of my money. I think the new DE are some of the best models out to date. But I'm not going to fork over $300+ dollars for each new army just because it looks awesome. I don't have the time for it. I'd gladly hand over $100 for each release if I could play that army on a skirmish level. Hell, I might even get into WFB if they did something similar there.
My criticism of GW is that they need to be a bit more dynamic in their approach to targeting customers. Theer are a wide variety of people who are interested in this hobby. Basing their business model solely on the impulse buyer kid who walks through the door is shortsighted and could very well end up costing them many customers in the long run. Ultimately it's their choice how they want to run their business, and as consumers, we have the choice whether or not to purchase their products.
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Post by: Dysartes
Based only on that picture, I started off thinking the one on the left was resin, with quite a large bubble disposing of the Chimp's fist - then I noticed the nub for the holstered pistol, and realised that hand was probably another piece.
Nothing t see here, move along.....
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Bloodwin wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:The point is that GW named Finecast the best miniatures in the world.
They aren't.
*** sarcasm alert ***
I thought that it was advertising hype, like most companies do.
...
.
That would be a point to be decided by a court. I certainly didn't take it as hype.
I would argue firstly that there can be a "finest miniature in the world", so it isn't an obvious hyperbole as a claim.
"The finest miniature in the galaxy" would certainly be hype, in contrast.
Carlsberg used to advertise themselves as "Probably the best lager in the world" because they wouldn't get away with a claim of being "the Best".
Secondly, GW's line about the qualities of their miniatures is also presented in their financial statements. It isn't just used as advertising, it is used as a serious statement about the purpose of their business.
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Post by: sarpedons-right-hand
My biggest bugbear is not so much the cost, it's what you get for the money. £18.50 for 10 Imperial Guardsmen is truly laughable....£18.50 for what? 80pts?!
That just makes horde army's practically obsolete, it's not wether you can afford it that really matters, GW is a niche hobby afterall, what really matters is value for money. For that price I would expect 20 Guardsmen for the good that they do on a table.
If GW insist on raising prices so spectacularly, at least give the gamers a little more for thier money. The 'Finecast' stuff is, for the most part, badly made. The level of detail is no different and the durability of the 'Finecast' resin is questionable.
THOSE are the biggest problems I have with the GW business practise atm....that and treating longtime gamers, like myself and a lot of other poster's on here, like mugs.
I really want a DE army, but I cannot justify it. The way GW are pumping out second class mini's is shocking. For the reason's stated above, my money is currently being spent on Mantic and Infinity.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
According to this blogger, Finecast resin is sensitive to heat. Enclosed is a picture of his Gandalf, melted in the sun. Feel free to repeat the experiment if skeptical. If you do, please document it fully.
http://thefrontlinegamer.blogspot.com/2011/06/dont-leave-finecast-in-sun.html
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Post by: filbert
Oh dear.... Frontline Gamer wrote:...the former GW manager of Sutton Coldfield has just informed me that the Leamington Spa stores Finecast window display has also melted. If you want to post it on those places then by all means do so... I posted it on BoLS and got nothing but grief and insults off of people who don't want to hear any bad news.
Also, some more info that was buried in the 40K discussion's forum: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/372723.page#2875141 I think someone on Dakka has also done their own heat test but I can't seem to find it right now...
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Post by: Thrax
lol, finecost displays melting!! This is almost like a bad satire skit. You just can't write this stuff.
Like I said, I lost a squad of krieg due to heat - finecost is really not that different. Unless they reformulate, this isn't going to bode well over the longterm for those with the finecost models.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd LOVE to see how the GW stores in Texas and Arizona even stock the stuff in the middle of summer.
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Post by: Swordwind
Thrax wrote:lol, finecost displays melting!! This is almost like a bad satire skit. You just can't write this stuff.
Like I said, I lost a squad of krieg due to heat - finecost is really not that different. Unless they reformulate, this isn't going to bode well over the longterm for those with the finecost models.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd LOVE to see how the GW stores in Texas and Arizona even stock the stuff in the middle of summer.
I live in the tropics. I really pity the people who still buy GW and want to get Finecast.
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Post by: Paul
Sugestion, don't buy any YET. It looks like the UK will be having a very warm weekend (for the UK), so I woulden't be suppriesd to see GW shops having windows full of melted minis. They will have to look at it again.
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Post by: Sidstyler
Kilkrazy wrote:Secondly, GW's line about the qualities of their miniatures is also presented in their financial statements. It isn't just used as advertising, it is used as a serious statement about the purpose of their business.
That's a good point...
And I can't believe display windows are fething melting already, that's amazing. Kinda hard to sweep THAT one under the rug, huh?
Well, "amazing"...I'm actually very worried about my own purchase now. As if I wasn't already annoyed enough every time I find a new defect in them, now I have to be careful about how long I leave them in sunlight.
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Post by: Stella Cadente
even if whole displays are melting I'm sure its not GW's fault, afterall they are akin to gods and cannot make mistakes, its all our faults for making the models out of this resin......
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Post by: sarpedons-right-hand
Well you guys should pity me then, I spend 2 months a year in the Philippines! Those finecost thingys ain't gonna last more than 2 hours in the damp heat out there! :(
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Displays are melting? That's just golden...
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Post by: Stella Cadente
H.B.M.C. wrote:Displays are melting? That's just golden...
actually its more of a grey puddle, if the models melted into pure gold though that would warrant the cost of each of them
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Post by: Eilif
Pacific wrote:Eilif wrote:
Perhaps you didn't mean this the way it looks in print, but if you did...
It's quite presumptuous to judge what is too expensive for someone whose finances you are not familiar with. I can afford GW at retail, but I choose to put my money into a variety of more reasonably priced alternatives (and some used GW products) in order to get more for my $.
Come on mate this is the internet, you should always give people the benefit of the doubt
aka_mythos is one of the more polite posters on here, I took the comment as 'if the cost is more than you are willing to pay for it, then find another interest'
Good point. Always better to assume good intentions.
Consider Benefit-of-Doubt given.
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Post by: spaceelf
brettz123 wrote:
I'm not sure this is a good analogy. People need to keep up their car or buy a new one eventually to continue using it. This is not the case with GW miniatures. Someone can still use their miniatures old miniatures (generally speaking of course) and never need to upgrade. GW should be actively getting people to not only upgrade their old miniatures but to buy a second or third army. Large price increases certainly hurt them in this area.
While it is true that in theory that you do not need to upgrade your miniatures, in practice their new minis are really important in the game. For example, the Hive Guard, Tervigon, and Trygon are used in many nid lists and did not exist before the current codex. The Hellpit Abomination is used in many Skaven lists. You also have certain units that are removed from the game, like halflings, that cannot be used in tournaments. Lastly, you have changes in the game that alter the way in which armies are constructed. Most 8th edition army lists look much different than 7th edition lists. I needed to buy more Tomb Kings just to field a legal army when the new book came out because all of the troops dropped in points so drastically.
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Post by: DarkStarSabre
spaceelf wrote: For example, the Hive Guard, Tervigon, and Trygon are used in many nid lists and did not exist before the current codex.
Trygon - Forge World.
Tervigon - Still no official model. Plenty of people scratch build from Carnifexes.
Hive Guard - Mine are scratch built from old 2nd edition Hive Tyrants.
You don't need new models. Folks who have been in the hobby a long time will have plenty of bits and pieces spare and can scratch build and convert quite a bit.
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Post by: redeyed
well after seeing the finecast models myself yesterday...far from impressed...
higher price tag for an inferior product. I didnt even notice much more detail, they just looked cheap/tacky
also in the 5 blisters I picked up to look at I noticed 3 had defects (granted minor) but still there.
not at all impressed.
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Post by: spaceelf
DarkStarSabre wrote:spaceelf wrote: For example, the Hive Guard, Tervigon, and Trygon are used in many nid lists and did not exist before the current codex.
Trygon - Forge World.
Tervigon - Still no official model. Plenty of people scratch build from Carnifexes.
Hive Guard - Mine are scratch built from old 2nd edition Hive Tyrants.
You don't need new models. Folks who have been in the hobby a long time will have plenty of bits and pieces spare and can scratch build and convert quite a bit.
I agree that in most instances you don't need them, but they are really important and cost money to acquire even if you make them out of greenstuff. I had forgotten about the Forge World Trygon, so that is a bad example on my part. Converting a Carnifex still uses the mini which means you have one less Carnifex. You also probably need new bases. The large creature bases from 2nd ed were square. The Tervigon will probably be on a large oval base.
But to get back on topic, the more I see of the Finecast the more I like it. They look great. They have sharper edges than the metal models. They are also very easy to work with. Yes there are problems with some minis. Just open yours in the store. If there is a problem then exchange it.
My biggest concerns at this point are the miniatures warping from the heat, and dissolving when stripped. We shall find out more in time.
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Post by: Sasori
H.B.M.C. wrote:Displays are melting? That's just golden...
Lol, Christmas came early for you, huh?
Well, When I thought the Finecast couldn't make any worse of an impression on me, it does.
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Post by: Sidstyler
Yeah, gak's got fail written all over it.
And you know, GW could make it all better by just acknowledging that their product was crap and that they're working to fix it. You know, basic PR stuff that every other company in the world practices but GW. Apparently they really do think we're just stupid and/or blind.
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Post by: Lord Rogukiel
I hadn't realized the displays were actually melting... There I was thinking it was all an internet joke, but alas, its not.
Does anybody know if we can still get metal miniatures from the online store?
My (not so) FLGS told me to bugger off when I asked them, and then refused to order a couple Finecast harlequin shadowseers when I said I wouldn't pay for port. 
I'm not ordering a model to my house or anything, and they'll have to stock up on those models anyway, so where's the problem? or am I being too plaintful?
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Post by: htj
Lord Rogukiel wrote:I hadn't realized the displays were actually melting... There I was thinking it was all an internet joke, but alas, its not.
Does anybody know if we can still get metal miniatures from the online store?
My (not so) FLGS told me to bugger off when I asked them, and then refused to order a couple Finecast harlequin shadowseers when I said I wouldn't pay for port.
I'm not ordering a model to my house or anything, and they'll have to stock up on those models anyway, so where's the problem? or am I being too plaintful?
I don't know what plaintful means, but it sounds like he's being a jerk. Moral victory, you.
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Post by: Lord Rogukiel
htj wrote:I don't know what plaintful means, but it sounds like he's being a jerk. Moral victory, you.
Plaintful means I'm complaining too much. But its their loss really. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only Eldar player who's going to need a harlequin shadowseer. 
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Post by: Lolcanoe
Instead of fixing their Crapcast models, they'll just package some green stuff in with them and then charge us even more money.
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Post by: Rymafyr
Vampiric resin models! What an amazing innovation! Seriously though, if you have to prevent your models from seeing sunlight that's epic fail. I had my suspicions...
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Post by: Lokirfellheart
I don't want to sound like an idiot, but when are they going to finecast release the other stuff that isn't/hasn't been finecasted yet, ie the Sanguinor, Normal Commissars, Manfred Von Carstein, and will they ever?
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Post by: farmersboy
Lord Rogukiel wrote:
Does anybody know if we can still get metal miniatures from the online store?
Yes, it seems to be the only place you can get them. But not the ones that have been replaced with "Finecast".
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Post by: loki old fart
Lokirfellheart wrote:I don't want to sound like an idiot, but when are they going to finecast release the other stuff that isn't/hasn't been finecasted yet, ie the Sanguinor, Normal Commissars, Manfred Von Carstein, and will they ever?
The others maybe but not sanguinor, his wings might melt if the sun gets near them.
A bit like icarus
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Post by: Lord Rogukiel
farmersboy wrote:Lord Rogukiel wrote:
Does anybody know if we can still get metal miniatures from the online store?
Yes, it seems to be the only place you can get them. But not the ones that have been replaced with "Finecast".
Ok, thanks for the info.
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Post by: htj
Lord Rogukiel wrote:htj wrote:I don't know what plaintful means, but it sounds like he's being a jerk. Moral victory, you.
Plaintful means I'm complaining too much. But its their loss really. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only Eldar player who's going to need a harlequin shadowseer.
My curiosity was piqued, I had to look it up. Apparently, it's an old, old word, from the Old French which gives it some context as to how old. But it's not considered obsolete, which is wonderful, as I shall add it to my vocabulary forthwith. Interestingly, the noun 'plaint' as a complaint is still in use too, but it's sister word, the verb 'plaint' is obsolete. See, it's things like this that make me so fascinated by language.
Oh, er, I mean: resin bad! Boo!
Seriously, I can't believe that sunlight is proving to be this stuff's nemesis. I don't want to spend hours painting a miniature only to have it all cracked and warped from the bally thing melting. I wish they could just make everything in plastic.
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Post by: Swordwind
Imagine the Norwegians and Icelanders in winter. May be cold, but the 24-hour sunlight would probably do damage.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Sasori wrote:Lol, Christmas came early for you, huh?
See that's just the thing - I don't mind resin. I don't even mind the idea of GW moving from metal to resin. I dislike metal models, they're a pain in the ass to build (thank the Emperor for the Holy Green Stuff of Sticking), and they break really easily. I don't like resin much either, but if there's a choice between the two I'll take the lighter and less-likely-to-explode-if-I-knock-it-over resin. My Forge World models, whilst riddled with problems a proper QA department would never let through, are perfectly fine, so GW doing resin isn't an issue. It's the hubris of calling them 'Finecast', the sheer arrogant hyperbole of calling them the finest miniatures around when they neither have more detail than their metal counter-parts, are full of miscasts and other things, are made from a cheap and tacky material and cost more (for no apparent reason). I've said a few times that most people become more willing to accept bad news if you are up front about it tell it straight to their face and that, conversely, people become more suspicious when you hide the truth behind a smoke screen of faux good news. If GW had said from the outset of this whole Meltcast debarcle that the move to resin was a cost cutting measure due to the constant rise of tin prices (something out of their control and not at all their fault), people would have accepted it. They mightn't have accepted the prise rise, but at least the reasoning behind the change over would have made logical and business sense. But no, they've got to be duplicitous and hide behind some fancy labelling - the Citadel Finecast range - and hype it as some sort of miniature Second Coming. That's deceptive (clearly - look at the results... talk about false advertising), and it makes people suspicious of their motives. You know the reason people don't complain when Privateer Press and (recently I think) Mantic upped some of their prices, or even smaller companies like Heresy? Because they didn't hide behind some wonder product and try to claim the sky was yellow when it was clearly blue. They said, straight to our faces, prices are going up because materials are more expensive. No one likes that, but we can't blame them for it. But not GW. Oh God no. They've got to pretend that everything is fine and nothing is broken and shovel gak in our faces all the way trying to convince us that it's diamonds. This is why I want them to fail. This is why they need to fail.
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Post by: Gorechild
I don't know if its been posted yet (cba to read through 46 pages ) but has anyone noticed the addition on GW's site that appears on the screen for every finecast model?
"Due to high demand, each Citadel Finecast product is limited to 3 three per customer."
It seems that they are selling well despite all the defects, I never thought GW would try and stop people buying lots of minis!
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Post by: pixelpusher
I think it was more of a "We don't have a ton of these".
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Yeah. It was done because there aren't all that many of them. They don't have a warehouse full of them yet (once the returns come in they will though...).
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Post by: Gorechild
Good point, I'm surprised they would simply refuse to sell you any more though, you'd think they'd set up advanced orders for them if they ran out of stock. Or is that idea to sensible?
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Post by: itsonlyme
H.B.M.C. wrote:Yeah. It was done because there aren't all that many of them. They don't have a warehouse full of them yet (once the returns come in they will though...).
lol, sad but very true, I imagine part of limited to 3 models is to also make people think they are selling like hotcakes just cover up for what you said, I guess it designed to have that effect that people will panic buy because they need that toy soldier fix lol, anyways I think this has to be one of the badly handled releases I have seen from GW (or certainty that I can remember)..
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Post by: Danny Internets
itsonlyme wrote:H.B.M.C. wrote:Yeah. It was done because there aren't all that many of them. They don't have a warehouse full of them yet (once the returns come in they will though...).
lol, sad but very true, I imagine part of limited to 3 models is to also make people think they are selling like hotcakes just cover up for what you said, I guess it designed to have that effect that people will panic buy because they need that toy soldier fix lol, anyways I think this has to be one of the badly handled releases I have seen from GW (or certainty that I can remember)..
This is a tactic as old as advertising itself. It's the same reason companies use the phrase "for a limited time only" along with their "special offers" even when they plan on extending said special offer indefinitely (recent example: Subway's Five-Dollar-Foot-Longs promotion).
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
I don't know what it's like in the States, but if you're constantly having a sale and the products never go back up to their 'full' price, the consumer groups kinda come down on them for deceptive conduct.
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Post by: Rymafyr
They haven't built up a supply of finecast yet. It certainly doesn't help they removed all the metal models from their stores. Then again, they knew enough to remove the metals as they didn't want them to compete with the finecast minis. Personally I'd like the choice, especially since I will never buy a finecast mini given it's unique melting properties.
This is what I don't understand...GW goes through the process of updating the master models. Makes new molds etc...Yet they choose this plastic/resin hybrid crap when they could have potentially converted these models to plastic? Except for the issue of plastic molds not being able to support undercutting, that I get, why do this? I do not believe a majority of these master models could not have been re-tooled to be made in plastic.
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Post by: DarkStarSabre
Rymafyr wrote:They haven't built up a supply of finecast yet. It certainly doesn't help they removed all the metal models from their stores. Then again, they knew enough to remove the metals as they didn't want them to compete with the finecast minis. Personally I'd like the choice
I would like the choice too.
Example - Chaos raptors and hills. Yes, the metals were abominable for their lack of balance but with tabs and coins and the like you could get them to stand up - it was all about counterbalance with the metal. And when they stood up they stayed stood up. The finecast ones...my word. Something that lightweight will not stand on an angle. There is no sort of balance there. I predict them falling down in the breeze to boot especially since the metals were already precariously balance!
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Post by: Rymafyr
I've got 6 Chaos Raptors and I know exactly what you mean. I honestly have to say, I love working with the metal and the feel of the weight of a model.
In some instances where terrain is a problem I just ask my opponent if we can place a marker where the units are and actually place the units somewhere on level ground while we take care of the game mechanics. Or just remove the terrain til the units moves off it. Sure that destroys the fantasy but it prevents the models acting like dominoes as well. I still got 2 more of 'em to paint up...meh...
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Post by: brother_zach
Yesterday I bit the bullet and bought a Finecast Model. I purchased the High Elf Trueborn with Great Weapon. The only true complaint I have is how the model seems to be missing detail of an arm under its cloak, but this could have been present in the old metal model as well.
There were a few airbubbles, but most were on the underisde of the model, where nobody could really see them unless they were looking for them.
I might also add that, prior to assembly, the model was dropped and survived the fall. I can't say the same would hold true for the larger kits.
Am I impressed? A little, I feel the details hold better too in this medium. The biggest thing for me was the shape of the sword, as it actually looks like a blade and not a hunk of metal with a handle on it. I do not have an exact copy of the kit in metal, but did purchase Alith Anar, the Shadow King and will post pics of the differences.
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Post by: Hellfury
H.B.M.C. wrote:I don't know what it's like in the States, but if you're constantly having a sale and the products never go back up to their 'full' price, the consumer groups kinda come down on them for deceptive conduct.
We like to breed 'em and keep 'em stupid here in the states. Our brand of greed can best be described as "Unrestricted capitalism without consideration for ethics".
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Post by: ChocolateGork
H.B.M.C. wrote:
......
This is why I want them to fail. This is why they need to fail.
Ive come to agree with this in the past couple of months.
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Post by: DarkStarSabre
I myself bought a Finecast model. I folded and bought a Lictor. I plan on having a review of it soon - spoiler warning, they changed the way the LEGS connect.
From what I've looked at so far there are bubbles. Meh. Bubbles can be GSed. Not great but not major enough to warrant rage.
What I am looking forward to is snipping the bugger up and converting it to be sprinting like a Hormagaunt.
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Post by: Rymafyr
All arguments aside, all that matters is if you are personally satisfied with what you are purchasing, as its not my intention to try and change someone's opinion. That doesn't mean I won't be snarky when someone is having an unwarranted fanboy orgasm over this crap.
For me I have no respect for GW as a company despite how much I actually like the IP. As a gamer the prices are too much and I will no longer pay such exorbitant prices.
As a modeler, I'm not impressed with what I'm seeing to be the longevity of this new product. The increased detailing seems moot give the scale and the fact you will be priming and painting these models which will reduce that detail regardless.
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Post by: krazynadechukr
I saw them, and they are equal to, if not better then, FW...I have a Krieg army & when krieg minis were put next to regular plastic GW minis the detail was/is awsome...Now FW next to GW FC, the finecast stands out in detail....
Of all the blisters, I saw NO flaws in my local store....
I will say that the prices are OUTRAGEOUS! A $23 box now at $29.75? A $10 blister now $18.75? WTF GW? 5 bloodnights $99.99?
If I were to carry out my planned new second 40k army, it was going to cost me $589.32 ttl for a 2k army....NOW, same army (all finecast) will cost me $728.88 ttl....
I can buy a table top quality painted 2k army on ebay for $400 to $600 for BEEP sakes!
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Post by: itsonlyme
Danny Internets wrote:This is a tactic as old as advertising itself. It's the same reason companies use the phrase "for a limited time only" along with their "special offers" even when they plan on extending said special offer indefinitely (recent example: Subway's Five-Dollar-Foot-Longs promotion).
Yeah I can certainly think of many times I have seen this used with other companies, makes me kinda think of a company I used to work for (the entertainer) that would mark up its goods for 3 months (or so) and then reduce the prices the rest of the year just so they could say they are reduced, that it! that really what GW are doing (if only :( ).
Rymafyr wrote:All arguments aside, all that matters is if you are personally satisfied with what you are purchasing, as its not my intention to try and change someone's opinion. That doesn't mean I won't be snarky when someone is having an unwarranted fanboy orgasm over this crap.
For me I have no respect for GW as a company despite how much I actually like the IP. As a gamer the prices are too much and I will no longer pay such exorbitant prices.
As a modeler, I'm not impressed with what I'm seeing to be the longevity of this new product. The increased detailing seems moot give the scale and the fact you will be priming and painting these models which will reduce that detail regardless.
Can't argue with anything you have said here.
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Post by: krusnikk
I am so glad I went to my FLGS and panic bought the plauge marines I was putting off until next month.
I am not a massive fan of metal models but with pinning and other practices you can get them working and held nicely.
However im not sure how to deal with a melting model and my room boils during the summer.
Any i dont like this whole finecast thing, but then ill probably end up throwing money into it soon enough.
thats where they have me i love thier designs so i will inevitably buy more.
But i have my plauge marines now so im a happy bunny
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Post by: Breotan
krazynadechukr wrote:If I were to carry out my planned new second 40k army, it was going to cost me $589.32 ttl for a 2k army....NOW, same army (all finecast) will cost me $728.88 ttl...
Wait... people still buy retail?
There are ways to stretch your dollar. I managed to add horde blocks of Skave Plague Monks and Stormvermin for pennies on the dollar by lowballing on eBay. Yes, it took me a couple of months but the money I saved is worth it. I also bought bits to magnatize my Screaming Bell/Plague Furnace so I could field either without having to buy two models. I finance my Finecast purchases and new armies by selling off old stuff that I don't use anymore, thus reducing the "cost of membership" to this hobby even more.
Say what you want about GW's pricing policy but it definately sustains value in the secondary market. You only have to look at WizKids and Mage Knight as an example of a company taking the opposite policy and driving investors/spectulators from the market (and the now worthess figures into the garbage bin).
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Post by: nectarprime
Breotan wrote:krazynadechukr wrote:If I were to carry out my planned new second 40k army, it was going to cost me $589.32 ttl for a 2k army....NOW, same army (all finecast) will cost me $728.88 ttl...
Wait... people still buy retail?
There are ways to stretch your dollar. I managed to add horde blocks of Skave Plague Monks and Stormvermin for pennies on the dollar by lowballing on eBay. Yes, it took me a couple of months but the money I saved is worth it. I also bought bits to magnatize my Screaming Bell/Plague Furnace so I could field either without having to buy two models. I finance my Finecast purchases and new armies by selling off old stuff that I don't use anymore, thus reducing the "cost of membership" to this hobby even more.
Say what you want about GW's pricing policy but it definately sustains value in the secondary market. You only have to look at WizKids and Mage Knight as an example of a company taking the opposite policy and driving investors/spectulators from the market (and the now worthess figures into the garbage bin).
Everything you buy used, someone had to buy new.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Rymafyr wrote:All arguments aside, all that matters is if you are personally satisfied with what you are purchasing, as its not my intention to try and change someone's opinion. That doesn't mean I won't be snarky when someone is having an unwarranted fanboy orgasm over this crap.
For me I have no respect for GW as a company despite how much I actually like the IP. As a gamer the prices are too much and I will no longer pay such exorbitant prices.
As a modeler, I'm not impressed with what I'm seeing to be the longevity of this new product. The increased detailing seems moot give the scale and the fact you will be priming and painting these models which will reduce that detail regardless.
Examples in other threads comparing metal and finecast models have got people puzzled as to which is which after priming.
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Post by: Kroothawk
Fun fact:
The June news poster for stores again boycotts all Finecast releases:
No Wracks, no Grotesque, no Haemunculus. And no word on any of the Tomb King releases. Of these only the Grotesques are mail order only. Stores are supposed to sell the other new models. Or maybe not. Weird (BTW the news poster only came a few days before the release).
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Got my hands on a finecast for the first time the other day. The level of detail is impressive, better than metal I think. But it is bendy...
99
Post by: insaniak
The whole 'melting in the UK sun' thing is a deal breaker for me. If it's seriously that heat sensitive, there is no way it's going to stand up to sitting in a closed house all day in the Australia summer.
No Finecast for me until they fix that little 'glitch'...
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Post by: Thrax
I would argue emphatically that Finecost in not better than FW. I have a full Krieg army and I have "new finecost" space marines here to compare, and there is no comparison. You, sir, are exaggerating.
Finecost looks, initially, better than metal minis, but it's barely noticeable once the paint is down. My Krieg look far and away, better than anything else I have that is made by GW, finecost included.
Seriously, get a grip, finecost is not the "HD" to our "Analog" miniatures. It's, perhaps, slightly better at holding edges out of the mold over metal models, but it's not better than FW. if anything, it is potentially as good, not better. If you really have a Krieg army, it must be composed of the worst casts FW has produced. Or, like I said, you are exaggerating.
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Post by: Sidstyler
Gorechild wrote:I don't know if its been posted yet (cba to read through 46 pages ) but has anyone noticed the addition on GW's site that appears on the screen for every finecast model?
"Due to high demand, each Citadel Finecast product is limited to 3 three per customer."
It seems that they are selling well despite all the defects, I never thought GW would try and stop people buying lots of minis!
No, because they put that on there the night they listed all the Finecast crap on the website, I saw it when I was looking at all the unpainted pics they had up. It couldn't have been "selling well" when it was just put on sale.
Thrax wrote:slightly better at holding edges out of the mold over metal models
Granted they don't take the mold with them when they come out.
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Post by: inquisitorlewis
Cryonicleech wrote:There's another great review on Finecast here
http://blip.tv/watching-paint-dry/citadel-finecast-review-5214720
This guy bought Marneus Calgar and Honor Guard. While some people (myself included) are worried about the quality of a single miniature, this guy's box turned out to be great, and I intend to pick up some Finecast Bolt Throwers for my Dark Elves.
That dude is a total tool.
42880
Post by: Thrax
I think the QA guys got sacked to save money, btw.
9010
Post by: Rymafyr
Thrax wrote:I think the QA guys got sacked to save money, btw.
Ooo, Sack the QC guys and raise prices up to 25%! Now that's a business model full o' WIN!
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Post by: BrookM
Rymafyr wrote:Thrax wrote:I think the QA guys got sacked to save money, btw.
Ooo, Sack the QC guys and raise prices up to 25%! Now that's a business model full o' WIN!
Kirby approves.
8884
Post by: viney
Mantic switched to resin/plastic for its metal figs and doubled the quantity in the packages for the same price. PP and Mantic are getting my hobby dollars!
123
Post by: Alpharius
insaniak wrote:The whole 'melting in the UK sun' thing is a deal breaker for me. If it's seriously that heat sensitive, there is no way it's going to stand up to sitting in a closed house all day in the Australia summer.
No Finecast for me until they fix that little 'glitch'...
Same here - it is regularly 90F+ here in Massachusetts in the summer - and I'm not keeping the AC all day all summer long just so the Finecast in the house won't melt!
1963
Post by: Aduro
My AC is broken right now, it got up to 95 in my house today, and it's not even the hot part of summer yet.
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Post by: LunaHound
Has anyone tried stripping paint off new resins?
Like simple green, does it harm the resin in any way?
18072
Post by: TBD
Didn't someone in this thread already test the bubblecast by putting the empty sprue in his car window for a while?
For what it's worth, I think he said it didn't melt but that it did become a little softer.
8546
Post by: krazynadechukr
Yes, I was sarcastic in saying the new GW FC are better then FW....
They are a close 2nd though....
24567
Post by: Kroothawk
insaniak wrote:The whole 'melting in the UK sun' thing is a deal breaker for me. If it's seriously that heat sensitive, there is no way it's going to stand up to sitting in a closed house all day in the Australia summer.
So GW boycotting all Southern customers actually is to protect them from inferior products that can't deal with the climate!
Maybe they switch to some more durable material ... like chocolate 
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Post by: Panic
yeah,
found this on facebook.
It's pretty cool! and shows how easy it is to bend hot finecast resin.
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10150314902038047
Also of note is how little bitching is going on about prices in the aussi GW stores facebook pages?
Is the outrage confined to dakka and the main GW page?
... or are they deleting membership that show contempt?
Panic.
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Post by: Noisy_Marine
I think the potential problem with stripping finecast is scrubbing the model with a toothbrush. Even if you manage to soften the paint without damaging the miniature, won't a toothbrush damage the fine details on the finecast models?
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Post by: Sidstyler
What's more likely is that they're just going through and deleting negative comments on their Facebook page, so it looks like everyone is happy about the prices.
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Post by: FrozenSoul80
Panic wrote:Also of note is how little bitching is going on about prices in the aussi GW stores facebook pages?
The store isn't the problem so no one should be having a go at them. All anger should be vented at GW HQ who actually make all the decisions the retail shops need to follow.
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Post by: Sidstyler
FrozenSoul80 wrote:Panic wrote:Also of note is how little bitching is going on about prices in the aussi GW stores facebook pages?
The store isn't the problem so no one should be having a go at them. All anger should be vented at GW HQ who actually make all the decisions the retail shops need to follow.
Anger which will be ignored, apparently. People who have been complaining have just been getting generic e-mails that address none of their concerns or some short piece of crap by Mark Wells saying "Sorry bro."
But yeah that's how gak goes.
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Post by: Ajroo
insaniak wrote:The whole 'melting in the UK sun' thing is a deal breaker for me. If it's seriously that heat sensitive, there is no way it's going to stand up to sitting in a closed house all day in the Australia summer.
No Finecast for me until they fix that little 'glitch'...
What you saying?? its not THAT cold over here mate!
Aduro wrote:My AC is broken right now, it got up to 95 in my house today, and it's not even the hot part of summer yet.
OMG Air-con in the HOUSE!
We just have to go sit in our cars for the 3 days a year that its hot! and yeah its only hot for 30 mins then it rains, then its hot then it snows. then rains again.
Bloody English Weather
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Post by: Eilif
Sidstyler wrote:Anger which will be ignored, apparently. People who have been complaining have just been getting generic e-mails that address none of their concerns or some short piece of crap by Mark Wells saying "Sorry bro."
But yeah that's how gak goes.
Not to defend GW at all, but emails are really easy to ignore. If someone wants a real response from a company they need to write a letter on paper and use the post.
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Post by: Mantle
To be honest, I dont think the resin is that bad, its the casting problems thats causing all of the trouble, I got 2 boxes of "fine" cast incubi the other day, bodys, heads and back things were Pretty much fine, in fact I got a couple of flawless ones, but the klaives in both boxes seemed to have slipped a bit, so now i have a unit of incubni whos fingers dont line up and the blades have doubled on themselves, the blades are easily fixed with a hobby knife but the fingers not so much. Yes the detail is better but does all the extra cleaning and work needed warrant the extra detail? and the extra price? at 23 pound a box I'd expect a full box of perfectly cast models from the "best" miniature company in the world.
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Post by: brettz123
An interesting post from a guy over on The Miniatures Page
Real quick note from a guy who has 27+yrs experience with commercial/industrial/military resins…cured resin does not melt in direct sunlight.
UV can and will degrade the surface of untreated resin…bulk of my experience was in Florida and Texas…I have seen my fair share of 100+ degree summers.
It goes without saying that they are using something other than a standard casting/forming resin…some cheap knick knack formula…what we in the business refer to as dust resin, because it has nearly no resistance to contact or the environment…this type of formula is usually used for single use and disposable products…it starts to break down in the trash can.
I don't know much about resin but that doesn't sound too good. Can anyone shed some light on the situation?
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Post by: Sidstyler
And so GW's ultimate plan comes to light...they switched to the cheaper material so that your models would actually degrade after time, and so you would be forced to keep buying them at ever-increasing prices. 
Or am I reading that wrong? Because it sounds to me like Finecast models might have an expiration date, and if they do then there really is no justification for the high cost of this hobby anymore. All those people saying "Yeah well you never have to replace the models!" will be wrong because your models will naturally degrade over time (probably not the plastic ones but still), forcing you to buy new ones.
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Post by: Thrax
I'm surprised they didn't just cut to the chase and make them out of sugar.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
It goes without saying that they are using something other than a standard casting/forming resin…some cheap knick knack formula…what we in the business refer to as dust resin, because it has nearly no resistance to contact or the environment…this type of formula is usually used for single use and disposable products…it starts to break down in the trash can.
My friend's wife said something along those lines - that these models will not last, and will simply degrade over time. If nothing else makes you think twice about Finecost, then this should.
And they raised the prices! HA!
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Post by: Ajroo
I can't find my KFF Big Mek!!!
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Post by: Thrax
Coffee? Sure. How many lumps of fineco$t would you like with that?
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Post by: nectarprime
Heat + plastic or resin = deformity
Sunlight causes heat. Heat can make plastics and resins soft and deform. That does not mean that the material is uncured.
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Post by: Alendrel
My suspicion is that the Finecast material, being softer and more flexible, is more prone to this. As noted, it's an issue with any resin or plastic, the only question is what the threshold is for a given formulation.
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Post by: krazynadechukr
FW 5 preheresy space marines $33 usd
GW FC 5 sternguard $45 usd
Wow, it might be possible to make a cheaper army with 100% FW in the near future!
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Post by: Guildsman
Alendrel wrote:My suspicion is that the Finecast material, being softer and more flexible, is more prone to this. As noted, it's an issue with any resin or plastic, the only question is what the threshold is for a given formulation.
Perfectly reasonable suspicion, which begs the question: why not use polystyrene? We all know that:
a) It won't seriously deform unless exposed to excessive heat.
b) There are exactly zero potential health risks, not even rumors.
c) Polystyrene is easy to clean and assemble, like resin.
d) Games Workshop has all but perfected the casting process for their polystyrene models.
Wouldn't it have been simpler, and cheaper, to simply use more plastic than develop a new material and process that is more difficult to work with?
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Post by: Thrax
It is indeed shocking that FW has become cheaper in some aspects than GW's mainstream production line. Waiting for the day in which it will be cheaper to make a Krieg army than a Cadian one....we're getting closer.
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Post by: Alendrel
Guildsman wrote:Alendrel wrote:My suspicion is that the Finecast material, being softer and more flexible, is more prone to this. As noted, it's an issue with any resin or plastic, the only question is what the threshold is for a given formulation.
Perfectly reasonable suspicion, which begs the question: why not use polystyrene? We all know that:
a) It won't seriously deform unless exposed to excessive heat.
b) There are exactly zero potential health risks, not even rumors.
c) Polystyrene is easy to clean and assemble, like resin.
d) Games Workshop has all but perfected the casting process for their polystyrene models.
Wouldn't it have been simpler, and cheaper, to simply use more plastic than develop a new material and process that is more difficult to work with?
Because the tooled steel molds for polystyrene injection molding are several orders of magnitude more expensive than the silicone rubber (vulcanized or chemical cure) used for metal and resin. A plastic kit needs a high volume of sales to be worthwhile, and a lot of the metal/Finecast range won't hit that threshold. Also, the flexibility of the rubber molds allows for much more complex shapes, with undercuts and such. While their plastic has caught up in its ability to capture and hold detail, to achieve the same kind of effects on the final model would require either breaking the model down into so many parts they'd be better off resculpting it from the ground up for plastic, or using multi-section molds, which are become even more expensive as they get more complex.
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Post by: Darth Bob
I bought Gulavhar, the Terror of Arnor and I must say, I'm a bit dissapointed. The head is so marred by extra resin that it's un-repairable and there were a large amount of places that required fixing by greenstuff. No resin bubbles to speak of but there's a lot of thin resin and hard-to-reach flash. The model will work for what I'm doing, since I'm not using the head, but if I had bought him to actually use as Gulavhar, I would have returned him just for the head alone. The effort and cleanup wasn't much worse than a Forge World model, but it wasn't much better. It took about an hour or so and I still need to reform one of the talons on his toes as it is so thin I can see through it.
Overall, it's not nearly the quality they say it is, but it's not THAT bad. Worth the model going up by eleven dollars? Absolutely not. A friend of mine bought the Khorne Chaos Champion and it looked good despite a small hole in his cape.
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Post by: warboss
Darth Bob wrote:I bought Gulavhar, the Terror of Arnor and I must say, I'm a bit dissapointed. The head is so marred by extra resin that it's un-repairable and there were a large amount of places that required fixing by greenstuff. No resin bubbles to speak of but there's a lot of thin resin and hard-to-reach flash. The model will work for what I'm doing, since I'm not using the head, but if I had bought him to actually use as Gulavhar, I would have returned him just for the head alone. The effort and cleanup wasn't much worse than a Forge World model, but it wasn't much better. It took about an hour or so and I still need to reform one of the talons on his toes as it is so thin I can see through it.
Overall, it's not nearly the quality they say it is, but it's not THAT bad. Worth the model going up by eleven dollars? Absolutely not. A friend of mine bought the Khorne Chaos Champion and it looked good despite a small hole in his cape.
If you don't complain and ask for a replacement piece, then GW won't get an accurate count of their failure rate and the quality won't go up. You need to call customer service about the piece and describe your problem if you want to avoid it (or worse examples) in the future.
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Post by: knighthaunter
picked up a finecast myself tonight, my LGS only had 2 come in, the one i got, Huron Blackheart and another guy got a Gorbad Ironclaw. i got a good look at Gorbad out of his box and he was fairly decent looking, most of him was light on flash, some parts had an issue with being a bit to fine and thin, as if the detail was "delicate" this was an issue i saw a great deal of on my model.
In addition my Huron had some pretty substantial flash and mold-lines, i do not see any real miscast although some of the new vent lines are in places that truly baffle me as to how unfortunate they are. i literally found myself trimming away a vent line from right next to a protruding detail and the vent was about 4 times thicker than the detail. my sprue varied from brittle to somewhat flexible, it was definitely not consistent across pieces that had the same overall dimensions. this was apparently replicated in the model itself, although i could not test it very well for obvious reasons. The cleaning time was a great deal more than i have spent on this model in metal
overall i would say this was a very mixed bag, where it was right it was great, and to say it glued well would be a serious understatement. i do have my doubts as to the overall durability and longevity of these myself, the joint strength is great but fine protruding detail..well tie will tell but it did not look good, im literally worried about brushing this up against the foam walls in my foam trays. i believe these are going to flex around just under this routine procedure.
really, aside from the ease of assembly, which is substantial, i do not think these are ready for prime time, the inconsistent and flexi-brittle nature of this material makes me very leery about how many of these are in my army.
To be blunt, if this model was priced at say 20 in metal and 15 in finecast, i would pay the 20. it should be noted that i date back to the days when your army was totaly metal so i'm not as bent by metal fig assembly as say my son is
last min edit: Hurons familiar does has some bubble issues and a flat out miscast area on it that will take a good deal of carving/resculpt, but i have Huron assembled now and im not seeing any bubbles on him or miscast. just a ton of flash/mold-lines
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Post by: Jazz is for Losers
Darth Bob wrote:I bought Gulavhar, the Terror of Arnor and I must say, I'm a bit dissapointed. The head is so marred by extra resin that it's un-repairable and there were a large amount of places that required fixing by greenstuff. No resin bubbles to speak of but there's a lot of thin resin and hard-to-reach flash. The model will work for what I'm doing, since I'm not using the head, but if I had bought him to actually use as Gulavhar, I would have returned him just for the head alone. The effort and cleanup wasn't much worse than a Forge World model, but it wasn't much better. It took about an hour or so and I still need to reform one of the talons on his toes as it is so thin I can see through it.
Overall, it's not nearly the quality they say it is, but it's not THAT bad. Worth the model going up by eleven dollars? Absolutely not. A friend of mine bought the Khorne Chaos Champion and it looked good despite a small hole in his cape.
That model was always shocking, even in metal. I don't mean bad castings, just really ugly and not sculpted very nicely in my opinion http://www.laguerradelanillo.com/content/view/281/59/
and you're out 1 head for bits, I'd return it if I were you.
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Post by: puma713
krazynadechukr wrote: 5 bloodnights $99.99?[/b][/u]
I had to go check that for myself when I read that. Utterly ridiculous.
Father: Here you go son, here's a $100 Isle of Blood set with a whole horde of Skaven and a warhost of High Elves, complete with a great eagle, dice, rulebooks and templates!
Son: Well, I was thinking of getting into Vampire Counts.
Father: Sure! Here's a $100 box of. . .5 knights. . . . . .would you rather just get a couple of XBox games?
Son: Sounds good.
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Post by: LunaHound
H.B.M.C. wrote:It goes without saying that they are using something other than a standard casting/forming resin…some cheap knick knack formula…what we in the business refer to as dust resin, because it has nearly no resistance to contact or the environment…this type of formula is usually used for single use and disposable products…it starts to break down in the trash can.
My friend's wife said something along those lines - that these models will not last, and will simply degrade over time. If nothing else makes you think twice about Finecost, then this should.
And they raised the prices! HA!
Are fine cast also biodegradable? would be so nice :'D
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Post by: Grimtuff
LunaHound wrote:H.B.M.C. wrote:It goes without saying that they are using something other than a standard casting/forming resin…some cheap knick knack formula…what we in the business refer to as dust resin, because it has nearly no resistance to contact or the environment…this type of formula is usually used for single use and disposable products…it starts to break down in the trash can.
My friend's wife said something along those lines - that these models will not last, and will simply degrade over time. If nothing else makes you think twice about Finecost, then this should.
And they raised the prices! HA!
Are fine cast also biodegradable? would be so nice :'D
If by that you mean eventually turning into a melty puddle of grey Fondue. Then yes.
I did notice yesterday the Azhag in GW Lincoln was getting a little droopy...
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Post by: NAVARRO
This material is great for GW because at the end of each summer people will have to buy their collections all over again...
10345
Post by: LunaHound
Grimtuff wrote:LunaHound wrote:H.B.M.C. wrote:It goes without saying that they are using something other than a standard casting/forming resin…some cheap knick knack formula…what we in the business refer to as dust resin, because it has nearly no resistance to contact or the environment…this type of formula is usually used for single use and disposable products…it starts to break down in the trash can.
My friend's wife said something along those lines - that these models will not last, and will simply degrade over time. If nothing else makes you think twice about Finecost, then this should.
And they raised the prices! HA!
Are fine cast also biodegradable? would be so nice :'D
If by that you mean eventually turning into a melty puddle of grey Fondue. Then yes.
I did notice yesterday the Azhag in GW Lincoln was getting a little droopy...
Then there you go :3
fine cast costs extras because they includes recycling fee xD
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Post by: Imperator97
Really?
They biodegrade?!?!
I'm sorry, but what is the point of this finecast stuff apart from making you buy more figs?
Sure more detail in the places that aren't miscast, but if the model will later dissolve into a grey-ish blob, then I can't quite see how anybody will even think of buying stuff from finecast at all !
GW needs to fix that or they will become very unpopular.
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Post by: Sidstyler
NAVARRO wrote:This material is great for GW because at the end of each summer people will have to buy their collections all over again...
"It's the same thing as buying a luxury car!" I hear people saying already. "Cars don't last forever you know, they have to be replaced eventually! Why should GW models be any different? YOU OWE GW EVERYTHING JUST BUY IT AND SHUT UP OR GO SOMEWHERE ELSE!"
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Post by: LunaHound
NAVARRO wrote:This material is great for GW because at the end of each summer people will have to buy their collections all over again...
Cars and electronics used to be able to last decades , now they last 4 years.
GW is always on cutting edge way of doing things! its only natural for them to follow the trend.
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Post by: Samus666
Is there any way to find out for sure if Finecast really is biodegradable? Because that would take the cake. If that's correct then no way will I ever buy a finecast, even if I can check for miscasts first.
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Post by: Rymafyr
I think the bio-degradable idea has been mis-construed over the last dozen posts. Originally it was stated a resin of this nature will degrade over time. Given how susceptible it is to heat, it makes sense. Time frame is unknown.
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Post by: NAVARRO
LunaHound wrote:NAVARRO wrote:This material is great for GW because at the end of each summer people will have to buy their collections all over again...
Cars and electronics used to be able to last decades , now they last 4 years.
GW is always on cutting edge way of doing things! its only natural for them to follow the trend.
Lol yeah I know you are teasing but I would like to add that the difference here is you cannot have any estimative of its longevity it can be 2 years, 2 hours or 2 decades depends of........ the sun
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Post by: DarkStarSabre
Just reviewed the Lictor in my painting log (link in signature).
Yeah...finecast is worrying for some ranges.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Good review. Thanks.
The Lictor is a major example of a model that clearly will work better in Finecast or plastic than metal, due to the complication of the arm design.
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Post by: LunaHound
Rymafyr wrote:I think the bio-degradable idea has been mis-construed over the last dozen posts. Originally it was stated a resin of this nature will degrade over time. Given how susceptible it is to heat, it makes sense. Time frame is unknown.
I was just kidding when i brought that up >.<
NAVARRO wrote:LunaHound wrote:NAVARRO wrote:This material is great for GW because at the end of each summer people will have to buy their collections all over again...
Cars and electronics used to be able to last decades , now they last 4 years.
GW is always on cutting edge way of doing things! its only natural for them to follow the trend.
Lol yeah I know you are teasing but I would like to add that the difference here is you cannot have any estimative of its longevity it can be 2 years, 2 hours or 2 decades depends of........ the sun
Does that mean GW will start selling us limited warranties? some sort of service protection plan :3
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Post by: DarkStarSabre
Kilkrazy wrote:Good review. Thanks.
The Lictor is a major example of a model that clearly will work better in Finecast or plastic than metal, due to the complication of the arm design.
For the weight and durability of the material? I will agree there. For how it reacts to glue and the strength of the bond created? I will agree there.
But for GW's heavily pushed 'more detail' approach? Definately not the case with the Lictor. If anything Finecast has worsened it just a little.
As I said, if GW had put as much emphasis on the durability and weight of the material as its ability to 'enhance detail' they would have had a lot more success.
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Post by: NAVARRO
LunaHound wrote:
NAVARRO wrote:LunaHound wrote:NAVARRO wrote:This material is great for GW because at the end of each summer people will have to buy their collections all over again...
Cars and electronics used to be able to last decades , now they last 4 years.
GW is always on cutting edge way of doing things! its only natural for them to follow the trend.
Lol yeah I know you are teasing but I would like to add that the difference here is you cannot have any estimative of its longevity it can be 2 years, 2 hours or 2 decades depends of........ the sun
Does that mean GW will start selling us limited warranties? some sort of service protection plan :3
Funny you say that since I just saw on another forum the next line of products to go with these Finecasts...
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Post by: sarpedons-right-hand
If GW has indeed made the first biodegradable mini's, then hats off to them. I mean, really, who'd a thunk it? Mini's that dissolve over time so that they have to be replaced every 12 months.
Why, that is pure evil genius on so many levels....and so to the future, a dystopian future where a single Space Marine will cost £25 and will last you precisely a year.
And Kirby, laughing maniacally on his own 'Golden Throne', 125 years old but still earning..whilst everyone stands around saying to themselves 'Maybe the next batch will be free from defects and resemble a snowman in 80f summers?'......
Really thou, until there is a small puddle of goop where the Finecost display pieces are in the Oxford GW (I shall be watching), then I will hold judgement.
Wouldn't surprise me if they were designed to melt thou..... More money in it then, is there not Kirby?
10345
Post by: LunaHound
I cant help it , this one is so funny xD
Rev Nice wrote:anevilgiraffe wrote:wth is Citadel Finecast?
It's like the Rapture.
A new era that apparently exists only in the inner spirtuality of the true believer whilst others point and laugh.
299
Post by: Kilkrazy
DarkStarSabre wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:Good review. Thanks.
The Lictor is a major example of a model that clearly will work better in Finecast or plastic than metal, due to the complication of the arm design.
For the weight and durability of the material? I will agree there. For how it reacts to glue and the strength of the bond created? I will agree there.
But for GW's heavily pushed 'more detail' approach? Definately not the case with the Lictor. If anything Finecast has worsened it just a little.
As I said, if GW had put as much emphasis on the durability and weight of the material as its ability to 'enhance detail' they would have had a lot more success.
Yep. I don't believe the "Detail" BS either.
8221
Post by: Zathras
Watching the fiasco that is Failcast makes me hope GW will fix the problems that have shown up by the time the new Necron codex arrives. Otherwise I will not be purchasing any new Necron figs in the Failcast line, no matter how cool they are.
44331
Post by: thebadabwar
Just got back from my local GW store. They got a new batch in and on some of them the molds were different (items in different positions on the sprue) than last week. It looks like the quality has improved as well. I asked when they will add more of the old sculpts to the finecast range and was told that there will be more on the 18th and a few more each month thereafter. Picked up a few blisters and they were all nice minus a few micro bubbles. Does anybody know what they will re-release (and I am not talking about the Tomb Kings on the 11th)?
722
Post by: Kanluwen
The Terminator Chaplain is supposed to be coming back into stock as of yesterday.
31545
Post by: AlexHolker
Samus666 wrote:Is there any way to find out for sure if Finecast really is biodegradable?
Dig a hole, bury a few pieces of sprue, and water it regularly. Dig it up in a few weeks time and see if anything happened to it.
32915
Post by: Ghiest1
Hello,
The more detail is pure BS, and I beleive "Finecast" was meant to mean "fine if you want to spend a hour and a half removing flash and filling airholes". The resin itself does feel funny and almost a little rubbery. That said I am used to working with white resin. I have Logan Grimnar and I got him to try the models out, I did not try the no priming approch however. Here is a pic of him in progress. Overall it was what I expected, I really did not think that they would work any harder at it and the base he came with was still a cheap standard base.
Regards,
Carl
1
38762
Post by: Mantle
I had a couple of boxes of incubi arrive the other day, got a couple of pretty much flawless bodies but the klaives were all on the same sprue and it looks like the mold slipped on both of them so the fingers don't line up and the blades look like they have doubled up. Luckily I was only using 9 of them because one of the models looked like parts of it were dunked in acid
9010
Post by: Rymafyr
LunaHound wrote:Rymafyr wrote:I think the bio-degradable idea has been mis-construed over the last dozen posts. Originally it was stated a resin of this nature will degrade over time. Given how susceptible it is to heat, it makes sense. Time frame is unknown.
I was just kidding when i brought that up >.<
Fair enough
24512
Post by: SonicPara
Picked up a Canis to replace the woefully frustrating metal one and it had no miscasts or air bubbles. The thing went together like a charm and looks fantastic. Finecast seems, well, just fine to me. I'm looking forward to finecast releases of Multi-Melta Servitors and Death Cult Assassins for my Grey Knights.
44334
Post by: Alendrel
Well, I returned the pile of garbage I had gotten today, no prob. I still wanted to try out the material from a hobby persepctive, so I poked about and found a pretty nice casting of Astaroth. He really only had a couple of minor bubbles of the "smear some putty in and smooth it out" type, which is reasonable enough for resin. Very nice looking model, though I don't think it has anymore detail (all the metal Astaroths I've seen were all slightly soft cast, like much of GW's metals over the least few years). Certainly much easier to assemble than metal would have been.
However, we discovered yet a new level of comedy with Finecast. One of my friends was there. He had tried to get a box of Vanguard Veterans last weekend, but they were all quite bad. So he tried again today. He ended up opening all three boxes they had, and we proceeded to spend about an hour in some form of demented Iron Finecast. All of the kits I would have rejected out of hand, but he was resolved to try and salvage one full kit out of them. "Three kits enter, one kit leaves." It was...painful and hilarious. The jump packs were especially bad: tear out all over, distorted and warped, the forward element between the intakes just not filling. Though finding a good set of the models was really an exercise in "which of these aren't totally horrible." And there were some atrocious castings in there.
34906
Post by: Pacific
Cadaver wrote:
I have not, although I have looked through their model line a number of times. Their stuff looks great from a purely aesthestic perspective. However, in that regard I can consider myself a GW "fanboy" in that I'm really not that big of a tabletop gamer. I like 40k because of the background that GW has created, as well as a certain level of nostalgia from having collected GW models over the past 15 years. Other games like Infinity, Privateer Press and Malifaux, while having some cool aspects, just don't appeal to me beyond a certain appreciation for the models. In my opinion, none of these companies can compare to the design that GW has created for their universe.
Do you know I used to think the same thing (and a number of my gaming friends also), that reservation lasts as long as you play or see your first game. Then I think some people realise that they are playing 40k despite the games system, not because of it. Either because it's what everyone else plays, or because they love the background, or time they have spent creating the army.
I think the analogy to best liken the experience to is if you got to play one of the new racing or rally games on a PS3/Xbox, then going back to playing the flat, 2D version on a SNES or Megadrive. It really is that different, I haven't been this excited about a wargame since I got the 2nd edition starter box set (or maybe the Space Hulk re-release ) It really is that much better, and after you have experienced it you will struggle to go back to 40k. The background is pretty good, I think especially if you have an appreciation of history and sci-fi, you will get a lot of enjoyment from it.
I will continue to collect my converted 40k army from bits sites and the like, just because I like the image and background of them and I'm running a blog about them. I might wheel them out for the occasional game, but I don't think I could go back to setting them up on the tabletop every Thursday again.
24567
Post by: Kroothawk
As someone said: Miscasts are not the worst issue with Finecast:
rodmillard from Warseer wrote:It peaked at 29 degrees in Bath on Friday - according to a friend of my wife who was there, the minis in the finecash rack in the Bath GW (which is right by a south facing picture window, so would have been considerably hotter than the street temp.) had softened in their blisters to the point that ALL the detail on the back of the models had been crushed by their own packaging. Apparently they had to open all the blisters of certain models to try and find ones which hadn't been deformed by the "unseasonal" heat, and there weren't any.
Heat alone is not enough to do it, but once you subject the mini to both heat AND pressure they will warp and/or lose detail. Unfortunately, the model's own weight is sufficient pressure...
10093
Post by: Sidstyler
This is looking more and more like a god-damned disaster. I don't want the models I paid more money for to warp like that. Hell, it's about an hour's drive to the store for me, and now I'm afraid my models will warp on the ride there on a hot summer day. Are they really that damn sensitive?
17796
Post by: Slinky
Kroothawk wrote:As someone said: Miscasts are not the worst issue with Finecast:
rodmillard from Warseer wrote:It peaked at 29 degrees in Bath on Friday - according to a friend of my wife who was there, the minis in the finecash rack in the Bath GW (which is right by a south facing picture window, so would have been considerably hotter than the street temp.) had softened in their blisters to the point that ALL the detail on the back of the models had been crushed by their own packaging. Apparently they had to open all the blisters of certain models to try and find ones which hadn't been deformed by the "unseasonal" heat, and there weren't any.
Heat alone is not enough to do it, but once you subject the mini to both heat AND pressure they will warp and/or lose detail. Unfortunately, the model's own weight is sufficient pressure...
Oh dear, that's not good 
10093
Post by: Sidstyler
Is it possible that there was a mistake at GW and they didn't mix this material correctly or something, or is it supposed to be trash?
24567
Post by: Kroothawk
"What's in your cooler box?"
"grumble... Finecast Miniatures... grumble "
They should have taken a more robust material ... like chocolate (with extra gameplay function)
Sidstyler wrote:Is it possible that there was a mistake at GW and they didn't mix this material correctly or something, or is it supposed to be trash?
They found a resin mix noone has used before. Now they know why
99
Post by: insaniak
rodmillard from Warseer wrote:It peaked at 29 degrees in Bath on Friday -
It does that here in winter. If that's all it takes, we're in for some fun down here...
24567
Post by: Kroothawk
... and then think how hot it can get in postal delivery cars.
The whole delivery chain to shops is compromised in summer.
10093
Post by: Sidstyler
I really hope they fix this crap, because the haemonculi and wracks are going to be "Finecast" too, and I'm honestly not going to keep buying this crap if quality doesn't improve. I'll either have to sculpt the crap myself, convert it out of plastics, or just not use it at this point.
Crap.
8471
Post by: olympia
insaniak wrote:rodmillard from Warseer wrote:It peaked at 29 degrees in Bath on Friday -
It does that here in winter. If that's all it takes, we're in for some fun down here...
All so-called Finecast miniatures come with the Gets Hot! rule. Roll a "1" and your mini melts!
7637
Post by: Sasori
olympia wrote:insaniak wrote:rodmillard from Warseer wrote:It peaked at 29 degrees in Bath on Friday -
It does that here in winter. If that's all it takes, we're in for some fun down here...
All so-called Finecast miniatures come with the Gets Hot! rule. Roll a "1" and your mini melts!
It seems to be a roll of 1-5. Only the lucky six seems to save at this point....
13192
Post by: Ian Sturrock
As GW pointed out, though, the ease with which Finecast deforms in heat does make for very easy conversions. After all your expensive single-character minis have melted into near-unrecognisable mushes on the first warm day, they'll be perfect for converting into Chaos Spawn.
8546
Post by: krazynadechukr
Compare prices of FW & GW FC....
red scorpions (5 minis) honor guard from FW $59 usd
GW FC honor guard $56
FW red scorpion Culln commander (termie armour) $22 usd
GW FC generic space marine commander (reg armor) $20
FW red scorp dreadnought (complete) $41 usd
GW FC dread $44.50
FW preheresy army OR Red Scorpions (40 tactical, 2 dreads, 1 lr, 20 assualt) $644 usd delivered
GW FC similar (40 tactical, 2 dreads, 1 lr, 20 assualt) $565 usd (no shipping or tax)
Which would you choose?
23433
Post by: schadenfreude
I hate metal. I hate metal because I hate having to repaint my figures after they have been already been painted exactly how I want them to be painted. I hate filing and pinning a metal model only to have the part snap off later from a small jolt taking a huge chunk of paint with it. I hate having to use excessive sealer on metal figures to prevent them from chipping their paint when they rub against another metal figure on the board. Metal sucks, and I am happy to see it go.
That being said the only reason GW switched to metal is because as a product metal figures last for decades which is bad for GW's bottom line. I still have 1st edition rogue trader CSM that I can stip an old paint job off of and repaint to join my army, and the figures would work perfect for possessed. The only reason I have not done so is possessed suck in the 4th edition CSM codex. If they are a good unit in the 5th edition codex, or even halfway viable I'll probably use them, and thus have newly usable figures without giving GW a dime.
All of that being said resin models do not cost GW less money than metal. The raw material may cost less, but when man hours are included in the equation resin costs more then metal. If models are returned due to defects GW ends up paying triple shipping for a figure: To the store for the 1st time, back to the manufacturer, and back to the store for a 2nd time. Returned figures also eats man hours as it takes people's time to process returns. The only way to reduce returns is to reduce defects, and doing so takes man hours. In a case like manufacturing resin the best way to reduce defects is to place a human being on the assembly line using a mark 1 eyeball to find and discard defective figures & parts, which takes man hours. Man hours are not cheap, and the added labor is going to offset the small amounts of savings that GW will have in raw material.
The part that disappointed me the most with GW is releasing models with a high defect rate isn't going to save them any money. They can pay money to have people inspect figures for defects at the manufacturers, or they can pay money to ship returned figures twice, and inspect the figure for missing parts to ensure that the person who returned the figure returned all parts. I don't see how shipping out defective figures saves them any money, and doing so damages the reputation of their resin finecast line. I could understand screwing your customer base over a bit for money, but loosing money to screw over your customer base makes no sense.
552
Post by: Prometheum5
I posted this guy in the Showcase section, but I thought it'd be worth discussing my experience here as a contrast to the 'sky is falling' posters.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/373538.page
I haven't been active in mini gaming for ages, but the email about GW resin figs was intriguing enough to get me into a store to buy one mini and the WD issue, and plow through getting this guy painted. The only cleanup this guy required was minor flash removal, which took all of five minute with a sharp blade and fine sandpaper. No bubbles. Easier than cleaning up a metal or plastic mini. They've managed to combine slightly better detail than their metal minis with the overall durability (maybe better) than their plastics, which seems like a success in my book. From a painter's perspective, I did find that some of the edges were sharper and finer than I've ever experienced on a metal mini.
I come from a garage kit and mecha and 'real model' background, and greatly prefer resin for most of my models. Assuming GW can get some better eyes on QC to make sure bubble-afflicted models aren't making it into packages, this seems like a good move from the figure-hobbyist perspective. That said, I think paying $20 for a single model was absurd and it'd be unlikely I'd do it again.
16487
Post by: Samus666
schadenfreude wrote:
The part that disappointed me the most with GW is releasing models with a high defect rate isn't going to save them any money. They can pay money to have people inspect figures for defects at the manufacturers, or they can pay money to ship returned figures twice, and inspect the figure for missing parts to ensure that the person who returned the figure returned all parts. I don't see how shipping out defective figures saves them any money, and doing so damages the reputation of their resin finecast line. I could understand screwing your customer base over a bit for money, but loosing money to screw over your customer base makes no sense.
Wouldn't be the first time 
But seriously, the only rationalisation I can think of is that GW didn't expect the defective models to get returned. That means they assumed their customers would happily accept defective models after paying through the nose for them, which is kinda insulting.
19754
Post by: puma713
Ian Sturrock wrote:As GW pointed out, though, the ease with which Finecast deforms in heat does make for very easy conversions. After all your expensive single-character minis have melted into near-unrecognisable mushes on the first warm day, they'll be perfect for converting into Chaos Spawn.
In the next Chaos codex, the Gift of Chaos power will say something like: ". . .on a failed toughness test, the model is changed into a Chaos Spawn! Either replace the model with an appropriate Chaos Spawn model or expose your opponent's model to direct sunlight. If you have no Chaos Spawn model, no direct sunlight or immediate heat source, the model is simply removed as a casualty."
13192
Post by: Ian Sturrock
The whole destroyed-by-sunlight thing will be perfect for those Vampire Counts armies too...
26192
Post by: Claimh_Solais
Well a Iphone can not withstand cold -12c and its dead
and it sill sells well
31545
Post by: AlexHolker
Claimh_Solais wrote:Well a Iphone can not withstand cold -12c and its dead
and it sill sells well
Do you understand that there is a significant difference here? Many places will never experience freezing temperatures, let alone 12 degrees below zero. And if they do, people will be keeping themselves and their houses above that temperature, because they can't withstand that kind of temperature without suffering from frostbite. By comparison, pretty much everywhere will get up to 28 degrees - in Australia you'll get that warm in winter. This is not a freak occurance or one that people are physically required to avoid - it's just a nice, warm day.
3720
Post by: brettz123
krazynadechukr wrote:Compare prices of FW & GW FC....
red scorpions (5 minis) honor guard from FW $59 usd
GW FC honor guard $56
FW red scorpion Culln commander (termie armour) $22 usd
GW FC generic space marine commander (reg armor) $20
FW red scorp dreadnought (complete) $41 usd
GW FC dread $44.50
FW preheresy army OR Red Scorpions (40 tactical, 2 dreads, 1 lr, 20 assualt) $644 usd delivered
GW FC similar (40 tactical, 2 dreads, 1 lr, 20 assualt) $565 usd (no shipping or tax)
Which would you choose?
Your prices are a little wrong at the current conversion rate a FW Red Scorpion dreadnought is significantly more than $41 usd
Red Scorpion Dreadnought is 25.5 British Pounds
Right arm is 7.20 British Pounds
Left arm is 7.20 British Pounds
Total is 39.90 British Pounds at a conversion rate of 1.64283 is 65.55 USD which is significantly more than the GW one.
2 Dreadnoughts would be 131.10 USD
20 Red Scorpion Assault Marines would be 102.20 British Pounds which is 167.90 USD
40 Red Scorpion Tactical Marines would be 65.6 British Pounds 107.77 USD
4 Boxes of Tactical Marines to complete the Red Scorpion Tactical Marines 149 USD
1 Leader would be 14.30 British Pounds or 23.40 USD
Total for a FW Red Scorpion Army with 40 Tactical Marines, 2 Dreadnoughts, and 20 Assault Marines is 579.17 USD and delivery would be free because you spent over 250 British Pounds. So even much closer then you think plus you get 4 extra mk IV torso pieces and helmets along with 4 extra red scorpion shoulder pads.
10345
Post by: LunaHound
Warps from heat and pressure?
Hi there foam cases :3
686
Post by: aka_mythos
Alendrel wrote:
Because the tooled steel molds for polystyrene injection molding are several orders of magnitude more expensive than the silicone rubber (vulcanized or chemical cure) used for metal and resin. A plastic kit needs a high volume of sales to be worthwhile, and a lot of the metal/Finecast range won't hit that threshold. Also, the flexibility of the rubber molds allows for much more complex shapes, with undercuts and such. While their plastic has caught up in its ability to capture and hold detail, to achieve the same kind of effects on the final model would require either breaking the model down into so many parts they'd be better off resculpting it from the ground up for plastic, or using multi-section molds, which are become even more expensive as they get more complex.
I used to design injection molds. What I always thought GW should do for characters and other metal minis is to produce them in multicavity molds with all the special characters for an army each occupying a separate cavity in a single tool. 1 tool 4-6 kits. At that volume, it should be cheap enough that the current prices more than make up for the investment.
10093
Post by: Sidstyler
lol, they'd have to have like two or three molds dedicated to just Space Marines.
10345
Post by: LunaHound
Can someone explain this to me.
Why did GW create Incubi in metal , and 2 months later redo it in resin?
from this , isnt it safe to say finecast line came out unexpectedly even for GW themselves?
If so , why? what made them decide to push finecast inside the sudden time frame?
Does it have anything to do with embargo and price increase? perhaps " one hard shock for change is better than smaller multiple shocks" ?
GW, you are ever so sly and smart....
13937
Post by: BrassScorpion
snt it safe to say finecast line came out unexpectedly
No, it took months of planning, hard work and coordination of new supplies including everything from new boxes and blisters to mold cutting and the raw material testing, then weeks of round-the-clock production in order to roll out what is essentially an entirely new product line. It's beyond ludicrous to think that it was an "overnight" change made unexpectedly.
10345
Post by: LunaHound
BrassScorpion wrote:snt it safe to say finecast line came out unexpectedly
No, it took months of planning, hard work and coordination of new supplies including everything from new boxes and blisters to mold cutting and the raw material testing, then weeks of round-the-clock production in order to roll out what is essentially an entirely new product line. It's beyond ludicrous to think that it was an "overnight" change made unexpectedly.
Then why did the metal incubi get replaced with resin ones right away?
If you look at it , wouldnt it make more sense if Fine Cast were say released 2 more months later than what we got now?
Planning or not is one thing , im saying, they pushed the release earlier for some reason.
13937
Post by: BrassScorpion
Then why did the metal incubi get replaced with resin ones right away?
I'm amazed at how little understanding there is of how the world works on these forums. They got replaced because GW replaced all of their metal line in their stores with Finecast and the Incubi are hot sellers, really hot sellers, so they replaced them right away. The new product replaced ALL metal in the stores, all of it was pulled to launch Finecast. Why were they released in metal in the first place? They are hot sellers, really hot sellers, and they sold a lot of them between release and the Finecast roll-out. As soon as they reappeared in Finecast they have sold incredibly well again. I saw them sell out in my local stores on the first day in both metal and then again in Finecast. It's that simple. New product lines don't get done by magic, especially in large corporations. There are prices to negotiate, orders to place and be filled, testing to be done, weeks of production to fill all the orders for the retailers and time to ship the stuff and stock the shelves before launch day. Seriously, the idea that it was an overnight unexpected change is ridiculous. To believe that is to say the least extremely naive, that's the politest way I can phrase that. The fact that some forum users could believe that Finecast was some kind of last minute change explains a lot as to why there are so many silly arguments on these forums. A little factual information education and basic knowledge of how the world actually works would stop a lot of crazy arguments before they got started. It amazes me that an explanation to debunk such a silly myth could even be necessary.
21940
Post by: nels1031
LunaHound wrote:Can someone explain this to me.
Why did GW create Incubi in metal , and 2 months later redo it in resin?
from this , isnt it safe to say finecast line came out unexpectedly even for GW themselves?
If so , why? what made them decide to push finecast inside the sudden time frame?
Does it have anything to do with embargo and price increase? perhaps " one hard shock for change is better than smaller multiple shocks" ?
GW, you are ever so sly and smart....
Just because something went on sale in the retail world doesn't mean it wasn't already produced months ahead of time. I remember reading rumors on this site and warseer that said most of the Dark Eldar wave 1 was already produced and ready a year before its actual release. Also, switching over a new and popular product to a supposedly more affordable material and manufacturing technique makes good business sense. To me at least.
10093
Post by: Sidstyler
BrassScorpion wrote:The fact that some forum users could believe that Finecast was some kind of last minute change explains a lot as to why there are so many silly arguments on these forums. A little factual information education and basic knowledge of how the world actually works would stop a lot of crazy arguments before they got started. It amazes me that an explanation to debunk such a silly myth could even be necessary.
Well then, that means there's absolutely no excuse for the poor quality of some Finecast models, since they had ample time to prepare for it.
Speaking of which, can anyone confirm what GW's return policy is on the new Finecast models? I keep hearing one of two things: people are being asked to ship the models back (which is bs, I'm already out the money for the models and now I have to spend even more, fixing YOUR mistake?), or GW customer service is operating as normal and just shipping out non-gak models no questions asked.
10345
Post by: LunaHound
BrassScorpion wrote:Then why did the metal incubi get replaced with resin ones right away?
I'm amazed at how little understanding there is of how the world works on these forums.
They got replaced because GW replaced all of their metal line in their stores with Finecast and the Incubi are hot sellers, really hot sellers, so they replaced them right away. The new product replaced ALL metal in the stores, all of it was pulled to launch Finecast.
Why were they released in metal in the first place? They are hot sellers, really hot sellers, and they sold a lot of them between release and the Finecast roll-out. As soon as they reappeared in Finecast they have sold incredibly well again. I saw them sell out in my local stores on the first day in both metal and then again in Finecast. It's that simple.
New product lines don't get done by magic, especially in large corporations. There are prices to negotiate, orders to place and be filled, testing to be done, weeks of production to fill all the orders for the retailers and time to ship the stuff and stock the shelves before launch day. Seriously, the idea that it was an overnight unexpected change is ridiculous. To believe that is to say the least extremely naive, that's the politest way I can phrase that.
The fact that some forum users could believe that Finecast was some kind of last minute change explains a lot as to why there are so many silly arguments on these forums. A little factual information education and basic knowledge of how the world actually works would stop a lot of crazy arguments before they got started. It amazes me that an explanation to debunk such a silly myth could even be necessary.
Wow... i asked a question because i wanted to know.
Thanks for the answer , and then some lecture thanks too , then some insults.
19754
Post by: puma713
LunaHound wrote:BrassScorpion wrote:*snip*
Wow... i asked a question because i wanted to know.
Thanks for the answer , and then some lecture thanks too , then some insults.
You didn't know that BrassScorpion is smarter than everyone on these forums? Not only that, but he's better looking and has a better credit score too.
10345
Post by: LunaHound
puma713 wrote:LunaHound wrote:BrassScorpion wrote:*snip*
Wow... i asked a question because i wanted to know.
Thanks for the answer , and then some lecture thanks too , then some insults.
You didn't know that BrassScorpion is smarter than everyone on these forums? Not only that, but he's better looking and has a better credit score too.
Its alright really, he atleast took the time to answer my question.
The insult i'll accept it as some sort of trade for receiving the answer. :3
21940
Post by: nels1031
Sidstyler wrote:Speaking of which, can anyone confirm what GW's return policy is on the new Finecast models? I keep hearing one of two things: people are being asked to ship the models back (which is bs, I'm already out the money for the models and now I have to spend even more, fixing YOUR mistake?), or GW customer service is operating as normal and just shipping out non-gak models no questions asked.
If its truly anything other then the latter, then that irritates me more then the price rise and all the rest of GWs recent decisions.
29585
Post by: AvatarForm
Prometheum5 wrote:I posted this guy in the Showcase section, but I thought it'd be worth discussing my experience here as a contrast to the 'sky is falling' posters.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/373538.page
I haven't been active in mini gaming for ages, but the email about GW resin figs was intriguing enough to get me into a store to buy one mini and the WD issue, and plow through getting this guy painted. The only cleanup this guy required was minor flash removal, which took all of five minute with a sharp blade and fine sandpaper. No bubbles. Easier than cleaning up a metal or plastic mini. They've managed to combine slightly better detail than their metal minis with the overall durability (maybe better) than their plastics, which seems like a success in my book. From a painter's perspective, I did find that some of the edges were sharper and finer than I've ever experienced on a metal mini.
I come from a garage kit and mecha and 'real model' background, and greatly prefer resin for most of my models. Assuming GW can get some better eyes on QC to make sure bubble-afflicted models aren't making it into packages, this seems like a good move from the figure-hobbyist perspective. That said, I think paying $20 for a single model was absurd and it'd be unlikely I'd do it again.
I really would like to believe you, but upon closer inspection of your own thread it appears that the bolt-pistol barrel is mis-cast and (as a military modeller does) drilling it out has only made this more noticable.
You also failed to straighten the crozius handle. Did this happen when you were using a hairdryer to speed up the paint drying process? Did you also notice stress lines in your dry paint due to flexing/bending of the resin?
Then your claims of 5min prep time in this thread make you a liar when in the other thread you said it took "half an hour from blister to base".
The sky is definitely not falling, but my respect for GW and GW-apologists is.
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Post by: Prometheum5
As I explained in the thread, the bolt pistol barrel was my fault, and not miscast. I got a little overzealous with the X-acto blade and didn't feel like replacing the barrel after paint. The Crozius handle also was true at some point, but like you said, I managed to add a little jag back into it. That'll be no problem to fix now, even with a painted mini, as the paint adhesion to the figure is awesome. As for the prep... half an hour or five minutes, sue me. Either way it was a breeze, and I would in no way consider myself a GW apologist considering this is the first GW mini I have touched in two years.
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Post by: BrassScorpion
You didn't know that BrassScorpion is smarter than everyone on these forums?
I never said that, but if someone can believe a major product line can be changed "at the last minute" then I guarantee you I'm smarter than they are. Or they are like 8 years old and have no idea how the world actually works. Just for the record, the lead time on White Dwarf magazine is 3 months. In other words, when you see something in White Dwarf, it was planned, written, edited, and finalized at least 3 months before customers see it. Now what was the big advertisement for in the front of the latest White Dwarf? Seriously, if you've never worked for a large company, been involved in purchasing or production or planning for a large scale operation in any way, then please keep the delusion that a product involving months of planning, testing, coordination of supplies, contracts, manufacturing and shipping could be a "last minute change" to yourself. I like games about make-believe like Warhammer, but the real world doesn't violate the laws of physics the way the rules for the models do in tabletop games. I get the impression some people are having trouble separating fantasy from reality.
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Post by: puma713
BrassScorpion wrote: when you see something in White Dwarf
Lost me here.
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Post by: LunaHound
BrassScorpion wrote:You didn't know that BrassScorpion is smarter than everyone on these forums?
I never said that, but if someone can believe a major product line can be changed "at the last minute" then I guarantee you I'm smarter than they are. Or they are like 8 years old and have no idea how the world actually works.
Just for the record, the lead time on White Dwarf magazine is 3 months. In other words, when you see something in White Dwarf, it was planned, written, edited, and finalized at least 3 months before customers see it. Now what was the big advertisement for in the front of the latest White Dwarf?
Seriously, if you've never worked for a large company, been involved in purchasing or production or planning for a large scale operation in any way, then please keep the delusion that a product involving months of planning, testing, coordination of supplies, contracts, manufacturing and shipping could be a "last minute change" to yourself. I like games about make-believe like Warhammer, but the real world doesn't violate the laws of physics the way the rules for the models do in tabletop games. I get the impression some people are having trouble separating fantasy from reality.
You know whats funny? a sudden change doesnt have to be a last "minute change"
For a large company , even half a year can be considered sudden.
Its like a large oil tanker, the momentum dictates it'll take awhile to change a direction , but it doesnt mean the crew is going to be chillaxing and not wanting to make a sharp turn from an incoming iceberg.
So especially according to yourself , with all the department and chains needed to deliver the final product to us consumers.
You should know DAMN WELL what happens when a mistake is made amidst the chain from any of the departments . ( <--- tell me in ur own words what happens , self proclaimed smart guy in large company )
So basically , i think you just think too lowly of what i posted and filled in some blanks for what you assumed others are thinking.
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Post by: Anpu-adom
I haven't been following this thread too closely until now. So I apologize for asking questions that may have been answered earlier.
Do the miscasts, brittle resin mixes, and bubbles seem to be appearing in the same miniatures or are they spread around? I mean, I've read where someone has opened several blisters of the same model, and not one of them was cast correctly. I've also heard of people picking a random blister off the shelf and never having any problems.
The reason I'm asking this is I'm hoping for some clue as to how quickly GW is tweaking the process. I'm hoping that the problems are getting fewer as GW ups its QC and the individuals making the product become more practiced.
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Post by: krazynadechukr
Anpu-adom wrote:I haven't been following this thread too closely until now. So I apologize for asking questions that may have been answered earlier.
Do the miscasts, brittle resin mixes, and bubbles seem to be appearing in the same miniatures or are they spread around? I mean, I've read where someone has opened several blisters of the same model, and not one of them was cast correctly. I've also heard of people picking a random blister off the shelf and never having any problems.
The reason I'm asking this is I'm hoping for some clue as to how quickly GW is tweaking the process. I'm hoping that the problems are getting fewer as GW ups its QC and the individuals making the product become more practiced.
bubbles & incomplete areas are in different areas on same models....nearly every model made has a bad few.....
majority of finecast are nice though....
blisters are clear and you can see them....
resin is a more rubbery resin compared to fw resin....less brittle....
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Post by: Alendrel
It's most likely this: GW had been looking into and researching the potential to switch over for at least a couple of years. In the meantime, they maintain metal production according to their usual schedule. As things progress, they realize it'd take two-three months for them to implement the switch over, and that once they initiate it, it's basically a point of no return.
Eventually, they decide to pull the trigger, set a target date for the initial release, and begin their switch over process: spinning up an extra stock of metal product to get them through projected sales during the internal switch over when they won't be producing metal, installing the new machines to handle the resin (mixers fitted to existing spincasters, or mixers and new injection molding machines), laying up new molds, and producing the initial release stock.
So it was roughly March or so when they made the call. At that point the O&G metals were released, and the GK metals would have already been made and packaged. The TK stuff was far enough out that metal production hadn't started, so they got pushed into June, along with the DE non-plastic items.
And this is where the execrable QC issues crop up. Either the mold failure rate was higher than anticipated, or it took longer than estimated to produce figures (or both), and they realized they would not hit their release date if they rejected things that should be rejected. Since they had limited stock on hand and couldn't easily shift back to metal without further disrupting the Finecast release, they made the call to push numbers over quality to make the release date.
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Post by: BrassScorpion
You know whats funny?
I do know what's "funny". Like that my original polite posts were met with rudeness to try and make up for lack of anything viable to dispute the clearly factual information I was presenting. So, my tone changed in turn. If people want respect, they need to show some. I also know it's funny that people keep changing the parameters of what they were saying so as not to appear incorrect or feel embarrassed by claims that have no basis in reality. I also think it's funny that some people expect me to engage endlessly about this. I presented some useful information and took the time to explain it against my better judgment. I don't see any need to do so repeatedly. Life has better things to offer than the 50 pages of mostly dross appearing here and I have no wish to encourage it further. Moving on...
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Post by: LunaHound
Alendrel wrote:It's most likely this: GW had been looking into and researching the potential to switch over for at least a couple of years. In the meantime, they maintain metal production according to their usual schedule. As things progress, they realize it'd take two-three months for them to implement the switch over, and that once they initiate it, it's basically a point of no return.
Eventually, they decide to pull the trigger, set a target date for the initial release, and begin their switch over process: spinning up an extra stock of metal product to get them through projected sales during the internal switch over when they won't be producing metal, installing the new machines to handle the resin (mixers fitted to existing spincasters, or mixers and new injection molding machines), laying up new molds, and producing the initial release stock.
So it was roughly March or so when they made the call. At that point the O&G metals were released, and the GK metals would have already been made and packaged. The TK stuff was far enough out that metal production hadn't started, so they got pushed into June, along with the DE non-plastic items.
And this is where the execrable QC issues crop up. Either the mold failure rate was higher than anticipated, or it took longer than estimated to produce figures (or both), and they realized they would not hit their release date if they rejected things that should be rejected. Since they had limited stock on hand and couldn't easily shift back to metal without further disrupting the Finecast release, they made the call to push numbers over quality to make the release date.
+1 , Hivemind.
BrassScorpion wrote:You know whats funny?
I do know what's "funny". Like that my original polite posts were met with rudeness to try and make up for lack of anything viable to dispute the clearly factual information I was presenting. So, my tone changed in turn. If people want respect, they need to show some.
I also know it's funny that people keep changing the parameters of what they were saying so as not to appear incorrect or feel embarrassed by claims that have no basis in reality.
I also think it's funny that some people expect me to engage endlessly about this. I presented some useful information and took the time to explain it against my better judgment. I don't see any need to do so repeatedly. Life has better things to offer than the 50 pages of mostly dross appearing here and I have no wish to encourage it further. Moving on...
I havnt read what other posts you received in earlier pages. And i certainly dont appreciate your reaction in your reply to me ( when i wasnt the one that made you changed your tone, or was i? )
Read Aledrenl's post,it states the possibilities to why GW implemented the release like it has.
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