I feel sorry for the LGS, they will need to carry more stock, just to cover the 6-1 ratio of bad to good minis. They will lose money due to more floor space lost to GW faulty products, or storage space lost to it, either way LGSs get screwed by this. Then they will need to spend more money in shipping the faulty minis back to GW to get replacements. Overall, the capitol that will be lost by both sides of the this, is going to end up being astronomical.

: slow dramatic clap :

This ladies and gentlemen, is how you shoot your self in the proverbial foot.

GW needs to hire some Six Sigma Black Belts. What a mess they've made of their launch.

Lunchb0x wrote:This ladies and gentlemen, is how you shoot your self in the proverbial foot.

Seriously?

With all those people jumping to other games and "quitting" GW they are up to the knee allready, with all those recent announcements.

Here's the break down of the types of issues:

0) Small "pinprick" or slightly larger bubbles on a surface that don't disrupt the shape of a thing (e.g. in the middle of a portion of armor or cloth). This isn't really a problem, and is the "dab a lil superglue or putty in and smooth it out" kind of thing that's not unusual with resin. Which is why this is issue 0, I wanted to call it out as something different and easily handled as opposed to more serious bubble issues.

1) Air bubbles that do disrupt the shape of a thing: these are the spikes not fully formed, parts of feet missing, chunks out of armor plates. These are generally characterized by the smooth shiny surface where the bubble prevented the model from filling. These are things that require resculpting to fix. Which may be relatively easy (putting the tip onto a spike) to devilishly difficult (reforming armor plates with detail on them).

2) Tear out: this is a form of mold damage found with metal castings as well. This is the result of a sharp part of the model (e.g. a rivet or edge of armor or clothing) that is buried beneath the mold surface, and drags across the surface of the cavity as the casting is pulled out. This wears and abrades the mold material, and as material is worm away, metal fills that damaged mold area in future castings. This appears as a "shadow" of jagged material extending from the portion of the model causing the damage, and builds up over time (one of the worst examples I've seen was one of the metal Tau Crisis Suit Commander heads where half of the opening of the face was obscured by a sheet of tear out extending across it).

3) Silicone breakdown: Resin attacks silicone, bonding to it and breaking it down. Mold release will slow this process down, but not prevent it, and GW says they aren't using it anyways. Basically, over time, this will degrade the overall surface quality of the mold cavities, so if you have, say, a smooth sweep of cloth, it will start getting rougher looking, both at the edges and across the surface. In extreme cases, it will show as a lumpy texturing, possibly mixed with tiny chunks of mold rubber. Similarly, if you have a thing strand of mold material going between surfaces of a model (such as with Grey Knights, between their head and the raised crest of their armor), it can bind enough that a portion of that strand will snap off before it releases free of the part, leaving future castings to simply fill in that area).

4) Overpressure/insufficient fill: This can be similar to issue 1, and is also something that can be found in metal models, though resin seems more prone to it (the lighter material means it drives into the cavity with less force). This is where the opposing surfaces of the mold cavity are pressed too close together and the material can't properly flow into an area and fill it. The Draigo shoulder ridge I have picture above is a perfect example: it's simply a wisp of heavy flash more than a formed piece of armor.

5) Part distortion: this is occasionally seen in metal, but only when the pressure is high enough that it starts to deform the mold. Resin is far more susceptible to this. Metal sets and hardens very quickly (for tin-based pewters generally used in miniatures, you can open a mold 30 seconds after it's pored and have pieces as solid as they'll ever be, large components can take up to a couple of minutes.). Resin has two working characteristics: pot life, which is how long it is essentially liquid and pourable, and cure time, which is how long until it has solidified enough to keep its shape. In between, it is soft and pliable, and liable to deformation. If removed early, just the force of being pulled out of a mold can stretch or distort it, and it will then finish setting in that distorted shape. For an example, note the front of the Marneus Calgar legs I posted, and how the gem and skull on his crotch-plate are "smeared" out of shape.

6) Mold offset: This is found in both metal and resin, and is a result of the mold halves being not properly aligned with each other. The result, pretty obviously, is a part where one half is shifted away from true with the other, creating project ridges on either side of the part in the axis of the shift. Minor shift is little different than a mold line (which is essentially a tiny ridge of flash as the material pushes between the mold halves), but more significant shift requires essentially resculpting the affected portions of the model. And if his happens across a face or other area of fine detail, can be pretty much impossible to correct.

For point of background, I've been professionally casting miniatures and making molds for about 8 years, mostly in metal, but with some resin experience too.

And can you tell us which of those issues in your professional opinion should cause cast pieces to be rejected?

winterdyne wrote:
And can you tell us which of those issues in your professional opinion should cause cast pieces to be rejected?

All six.

EDIT: To clarify, any one of those issues would be something that I'd be embarrassed to let slip past me as a caster. Now mistakes do happen, but the scale and scope of what we are seeing shape up is disheartening, and appear to be more systemic than a few human error slipping by; i.e. either the people involved aren't trained well enough to know, or have been directed to send these out regardless.

My hard limit is issues that require the end customer to have to resculpt parts of the model. Clean up (flash, vents, very slight mold shift not over detail) is to be expected, some fitwork on getting arts together, including some filing/shaving and a bit of green stuff, is reasonable. Issues requiring replacing missing portions of the model, or having to carve down and redo parts that are so mangled or damaged that just cleaning won't work, are and always shoudl be grounds for rejecting a casting.

My brother is a plastics engineer. I was talking to him about this and he knows of NO OTHER instance where a company would ship defective pieces like this.

Went into the store on day of release - great fro big models and boxes such as the aspect warriors, mandrakes, e.t.c., but for blister packs (LotR foot and mounted for example), it's £20 for two plastic like models - you just don't feel you're getting value for money. the amount of flash and mould lines e.t.c was horrific, with spikes protruding form the models al over! Some sprues were even filled with a thin layer of resin! I was so excited about getting a finecast model, I was adamant, but in the end I never bought anything. -Crap-


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, the detail level is exactly the same but with a chalky look.

Do we know for sure whether finecast are coming out of metal or silicon/latex/rubber flexible molds?

I'm hearing both on this thread, and they can't both be right.

On the one hand, flexible molds are uaual for resin. However, I have a hard time believing they're using flexible, limited-life molds on models produced for mass distribution.

Eilif wrote:Do we know for sure whether finecast are coming out of metal or silicon/latex/rubber flexible molds?

I'm hearing both on this thread, and they can't both be right.

On the one hand, flexible molds are uaual for resin. However, I have a hard time believing they're using flexible, limited-life molds on models produced for mass distribution.

They are absolutely, 100% using silicone rubber molds. These are models sculpted for such, and thus have undercuts and such that are impossible (or beyond prohibitively expensive) to do in metal molds. Also, you can commonly find bits of the silicone rubber stuck to or embedded in the parts you get.

Picked up a Castellan Crowe today. I am really pleased, no miscasts or air bubbles/voids. The flash and mould lines were few and far between, and the resin mix is very durable (bendy and springs back, I managed to get the sword to 180 degrees and didn't snap).

I am using him as a base for conversion and thus needed to lop off both of his arms/shoulders, it was an ease. The material is great, and the detail is crisp. The only issue was a small piece of rubber in a corner detail, and the resin was a bit too thin on the back banner (not using it though). Overall I am very happy with the purchase, I'm not sure if you guys have all had bad luck, or just being overly picky in rage mode.

May I add that it is much better than FW resin by far, and a huge step up from metal.

NoBaconz4You wrote:Picked up a Castellan Crowe today. I am really pleased, no miscasts or air bubbles/voids. The flash and mould lines were few and far between, and the resin mix is very durable (bendy and springs back, I managed to get the sword to 180 degrees and didn't snap).

I am using him as a base for conversion and thus needed to lop off both of his arms/shoulders, it was an ease. The material is great, and the detail is crisp. The only issue was a small piece of rubber in a corner detail, and the resin was a bit too thin on the back banner (not using it though). Overall I am very happy with the purchase, I'm not sure if you guys have all had bad luck, or just being overly picky in rage mode.

May I add that it is much better than FW resin by far, and a huge step up from metal.

The general consensus of the thread is that it is good, but many many casting errors. assuming we are raging because we are not with your example is a flawed argument, of the experiences in my Local GW today, about 1/6 people were in your situation with a workable cast

It sounds like your one had a couple of issues but you ignored them.

NoBaconz4You wrote:The only issue was a small piece of rubber in a corner detail, and the resin was a bit too thin on the back banner (not using it though).

Well, I finally noticed I did get a miscast/issue on my DE Archon- part of the Huskblade is actually missing (on the blade, a small piece is cut away which shouldn't be). Not too bothered on this occasion since it still looks fine, but I guess this is the kind of thing you have to watch out for with Finecast.

Think I can return my unopened metal blisters?

It'd be sweet to replace them with resin.

Kilkrazy wrote:It sounds like your one had a couple of issues but you ignored them.

NoBaconz4You wrote:The only issue was a small piece of rubber in a corner detail, and the resin was a bit too thin on the back banner (not using it though).

I didn't ignore the problem, I solved it. The back banner issue was no biggie, still fine to work with just you could see it was slightly thinner if held up to the light. The tiny piece of rubber was removed within seconds, however I do acknowledge this supposed 'piece of the rubber mould' may cause issues in the future.

Also, to the other guy: I am not trying to argue, but I'll try to rephrase: I have been very fortunate and happy with my purchase, possibly making me oblivious to majority of problems. Before I bought him I was expecting hell, judging by the gak storm here on dakka, but because of my fortune I was pleasantly surprised and wanted to let others know. I guess not ALL are miscasts, I was just lucky.

I'll still stick to my word about it being a far more easier material to work with. This conversion would no way have been possible with the metal mini.

NoBaconz4You wrote:

Also, to the other guy: I am not trying to argue, but I'll try to rephrase: I have been very fortunate and happy with my purchase, possibly making me oblivious to majority of problems. Before I bought him I was expecting hell, judging by the gak storm here on dakka, but because of my fortune I was pleasantly surprised and wanted to let others know. I guess not ALL are miscasts, I was just lucky.

I'll still stick to my word about it being a far more easier material to work with. This conversion would no way have been possible with the metal mini.

I apologise for the mis interpretation i was just trying to say that the general tone is that it would be cool- if it was reliable and reasonably priced, as you are right- it is epic for conversion

Made a poll "If you have bought a Finecast model, was it a miscast?" to get a more objective picture of the abundance of miscasts:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/372324.page
Please take part only if you actually bought a Finecast model. It is not a poll on your opinion on Finecast.

hlaine.larkin wrote:

NoBaconz4You wrote:

Also, to the other guy: I am not trying to argue, but I'll try to rephrase: I have been very fortunate and happy with my purchase, possibly making me oblivious to majority of problems. Before I bought him I was expecting hell, judging by the gak storm here on dakka, but because of my fortune I was pleasantly surprised and wanted to let others know. I guess not ALL are miscasts, I was just lucky.

I'll still stick to my word about it being a far more easier material to work with. This conversion would no way have been possible with the metal mini.

I apologise for the mis interpretation i was just trying to say that the general tone is that it would be cool- if it was reliable and reasonably priced, as you are right- it is epic for conversion

Don't apologise, I should have worded it better!

Ehsteve wrote:... The detail (especially the eyes) is so crisp it is difficult to believe it was the same mould used for its metal counterpart. ...

That's because it wasn't. Once again, these are not being produced in the same moulds. The metal models weren't cast on sprues.

I dont know the laws in UK, but at least in my country, if a company sells a product with a clear production problem (not something you caused, but something the company let slip), you can ask for replacement, with only the product (and a certificate that you buy it) in hands. Could you people not do something like that there?

I dont know, GW would be really pissed of about their resin things, if not only theyl sell poorly, but they had to replace 5/6 of the models they sold ^^

olympia wrote:My brother is a plastics engineer. I was talking to him about this and he knows of NO OTHER instance where a company would ship defective pieces like this.

GW has a history of doing this before though. Anyone remember the BlastScape fiasco in mid 2009?

All I care is that they don't put the Necromunda range OOP. And that they rehaul the other IG stuff, but I will probably be converting my own Steel Legion(think BrotherArgos' thread)

In the UK you would simply ask for a refund on the grounds that the product was not of merchantable quality.

If GW quibbled, you would point to their own proclamation that these are the best model soldiers in the world.

You would display your Infinity, Studio McVey and Hasslefree models, all free of defects, as proof that the GW models were inferior and did not live up to the claim made for them.

The judge would have to make a decision as to whether the GW claim was merely an advertising puff (meaningless hyperbole) or a genuine term of contract.

For the prices GW are charging I'd expect the model to walk out the packaging under its own steam and salute me. Seriously the prices are so out whack with what even small boutique casters such as McVey Studio charge with none of GW's economies of scale. How anyone can justify buying this stuff when there are much better and cheaper models available is beyond my comprehension!

Some prices I can understand, Emporer's Champion £9.50 for example. GW have spent a very large sum of money making what is a far superior material to metal and they need to recoupe their cash.

However, some prices, such as 5 Blood Knights £61.50, are absurd. How can 5 knights, even in finecast, be as expensive for GW to make as a Baneblade?

Kilkrazy wrote:In the UK you would simply ask for a refund on the grounds that the product was not of merchantable quality.

If GW quibbled, you would point to their own proclamation that these are the best model soldiers in the world.

You would display your Infinity, Studio McVey and Hasslefree models, all free of defects, as proof that the GW models were inferior and did not live up to the claim made for them.

The judge would have to make a decision as to whether the GW claim was merely an advertising puff (meaningless hyperbole) or a genuine term of contract.

Also, games workshop has a strict 'if you bring it to us still in package, we will replace it' policy

hlaine.larkin wrote:Also, games workshop has a strict 'if you bring it to us still in package, we will replace it' policy

True - but I wonder how that'll fly when you've had to open it to find the flaw (i.e., back of the sprue in the blister).....

insaniak wrote:

Ehsteve wrote:... The detail (especially the eyes) is so crisp it is difficult to believe it was the same mould used for its metal counterpart. ...

That's because it wasn't. Once again, these are not being produced in the same moulds. The metal models weren't cast on sprues.

They may be using different moulds but the masters are exactly the same ones, so the "extra detail" being seen is purely an illusion caused by the dullness of Resin.

We will not see the real potential of this venture until we see master models designed with this process in mind.

Perhaps a strange question but when do you think the next wave of finecast will come ?
1 month , 4-6 month - 1+ years ?

Good to see that some people have had positive experiences here, and that they are getting reported. I am quite sure that the positive is getting under reported compared to the negative, which people tend to shout form the rooftops.

Is anyone getting any flak on returns? GW haven't done any tightening down of standards in that area have they? I know it's a pretty simple process, for all you jackhammers out there waiting to point that out, but GW has put out suspect product and policy both in recent years, there is no telling what they may try to put the screws to next. Really I guess this is a question for the retailers out there. Any store owners care to comment?

Ivan Isaaks wrote:The store I went to had a 50% off sale on all of their left over metal figures (15 euro for a box of plague marines is not a deal I can ignore) so I blew all my money on those hehe.

A sale caused you to blow all your money? 50% is a lot, yes, but I'm wondering if there's a message here for a certain company...

I am debating on seeing if my FLGS has metal models I could snag before its too late..

Ill put some pics up of the following when they arrive... before any returns.

imperial guard commissar yarrick
imperial guard lord commissar

ork warboss with attack squig

space marines librarian in terminator armour
space marines vanguard veteran squad

space wolves canis wolfborn

tau sniper drone team

tyranid hive tyrant
tyranid lictor
tyranid zoanthrope

From what the manager at my GW told me the price increase combined with the new finecast was just terrible timing on their part. He said the prices were going up anyway so if the finecast came early they would have been cheaper and then gone right back up due to the price increase. He said GW would have been better off holding off finecast for another couple weeks as it would've made more customers happy.

Grimtuff wrote:They may be using different moulds but the masters are exactly the same ones, so the "extra detail" being seen is purely an illusion caused by the dullness of Resin.

We've already covered that one several times now as well. Using the same masters (and even using the same moulds, if they were doing so) does not mean that the resins can only be as detailed as the metals.

Grimtuff wrote:
They may be using different moulds but the masters are exactly the same ones, so the "extra detail" being seen is purely an illusion caused by the dullness of Resin.

I dont think that is strictly true, afterall, the metal does shrink slightly when it hardens, therefor making some parts stand out less.
Im not sticking up for them though !
It seems the general consensus among people i know is that these slight defects would be ok on the introduction of a new line, if they were run of the mill models.
But, these are more expensive, and they claim to be the best models there are !!!

We don't know enough about the physical properties of the metal alloy, the resin type, or the mould types, to definitively say that metal yields less detail than resin in the same mould.

All I know is that I am very happy with the detail on both the Infinity and the Studio McVey models.

Kilkrazy wrote:

All I know is that I am very happy with the detail on both the Infinity and the Studio McVey models.

True... Im going to push it now, but my last purchased miniatures are superior in casting they are metal with almost invisible mouldlines and are tons of fun... No stress no faulty stuff just clean and paint... and they are 15mm miniatures. Color me happy

I bought a Farseer and warlock set in my Local GW today, and the guy who sold me it (I know him pretty well now) insisted on opening the box to check the contents before selling it to me, as he himself had bought the same box and had some major miscasts. True enough, the Farseer was missing a whole arm (a seperate piece), and half his head (ouch). One of the Warlocks also had some serious bubble damage (in about 3 places). So he grabbed another box, opened it. The farseer in this one was fine (1 minor bubble which i can fill with glue or putty) and one of the warlocks was again damaged by bubbles (though a different pose one this time).

The box contains 1 farseer and 3 warlocks. GW guy actually let me walk away with 1 farseer, and 5 of the warlocks for no extra cost. So in all, i got the full box which i bought (all good condition) plus 2 slightly bubbled warlocks for free.

Seems that certain casts especially have alot of issues, whilst others are completely fine. If you buy a boxed set where you cannot see the contents before buying, i suggest you open it in store.

I'm going to wait on finecast for a few months, and see if things have gotten better by then or if Finecast has been discontinued

If neither of these happy events has taken place i'm sticking to plastics and converting.

RaptorsTallon wrote:
However, some prices, such as 5 Blood Knights £61.50, are absurd. How can 5 knights, even in finecast, be as expensive for GW to make as a Baneblade?

Well, they aren't. of course!

GW has been using a inversely proportional formula of amount you need/can have to cost for a while now...

Sort of!

Look at Casket of soul, CHEAP in points , CHEAP in materials.

But why so expensive? because its one of the most point efficient unit in Fantasy atm.

I hate you GW ! i wanted 2 or 3 of those

Actually i dont hate GW , if i truly hate them i would buy 1 fine cast, and perhaps it would multiply into 3 ... from what we have been seeing

Oh and they also fine cost Spear Chukka. who on EARTH makes resins of that!?

Droma wrote:From what the manager at my GW told me the price increase combined with the new finecast was just terrible timing on their part. He said the prices were going up anyway so if the finecast came early they would have been cheaper and then gone right back up due to the price increase. He said GW would have been better off holding off finecast for another couple weeks as it would've made more customers happy.

As far as I know only some of the plastic kits got a raise, and none of the metals, so it looks like he told you a little bs story there.

Can I ask a question, a lot of people through this thread have been commenting that lead is harder to paint or chips easily.

As I refuse to help prop up GWs overpriced mental sales policy, I stopped collecting much of their stuff years ago and switched to WW2/WW1 etc which means the majority of what I paint be it rank and file or characters is metal, If anything I find metal easier to paint and more robust, is this just me? (sailing off topic I know, but "I gots to know")

Kilkrazy wrote:We don't know enough about the physical properties of the metal alloy, the resin type, or the mould types, to definitively say that metal yields less detail than resin in the same mould.

The Carnosaur pictures someone posted earlier are a definite hint, though. The difference there definitely wasn't just down to the different photographic properties of the materials... The detail on the resin was noticable clearer and sharper.

Zathras wrote:

htj wrote:

Temujin wrote:

Ehsteve wrote:Can't wait to see Inquisitorial assassins in finecast, I need a new vindicator...

Wouldn't a vindicator make a rather conspicuous and unsubtle assassin?

Reckon it'd get the job done, though.

It'd put a whole new meaning to the term "BOOM....HEADSHOT!!!!"

Does your tank have a 4+ dodge save?

And I need a vindicare (yes vindicare) since the silencer on the rifle snapped off, after seeing the kind of punishment resin-plastic can take, I think it would be a welcome change seeing all the times both I and other people have managed to knock that top-heavy model from a building.

On a different note, the omniscient axe on my Techmarine is bent and i've heard throughout this thread hot water is the way to fix this. Are we talking boiling water or just hot tap water? I just don't want to damage the resin after I got such a good cast.

How did you snap the silencer off? What were you doing to the model that caused that to happen?

Don't fool yourself.

The "NU METAL" resin is garbage. snapping off weapons, miscasts, and bubbles are looking like the norm, rather then the exception.

As to the material?

Its low grade resin, I've seen better in the hobby store. Only reason they are getting rid of the metals is so people can't start showing them up and casting thier own for 1/4 or less the price.

One thing I can say that is a plus about the Res-bortion.

Expect GW to be able to increase those C and D letter influx of funds to offset the loss, and the competition of third party companies to be able to upstart them and give you a better selection for less.

At this point, the "Discount " would be to sell those crapsicles at thier REAL production price.


!@#$ing gak reminds me of the toys that you get in europe out of those chocolate eggs, with the same consistancy of the plastic that the eggs come in.



"And I need a vindicare (yes vindicare) since the silencer on the rifle snapped off, after seeing the kind of punishment resin-plastic can take, I think it would be a welcome change seeing all the times both I and other people have managed to knock that top-heavy model from a building.

On a different note, the omniscient axe on my Techmarine is bent and i've heard throughout this thread hot water is the way to fix this. Are we talking boiling water or just hot tap water? I just don't want to damage the resin after I got such a good cast."

Hey, buddy.

Someone should have told you...

Those models only get the +4 save IN THE GAME. In real life, they are brittle as !@#$. (NO SAVES FOR YOU!!!)

Ehsteve wrote:On a different note, the omniscient axe on my Techmarine is bent and i've heard throughout this thread hot water is the way to fix this. Are we talking boiling water or just hot tap water? I just don't want to damage the resin after I got such a good cast.

Hot tap water. It turns flexible pretty quick so dont overdo it.

pixelpusher wrote:

Ehsteve wrote:On a different note, the omniscient axe on my Techmarine is bent and i've heard throughout this thread hot water is the way to fix this. Are we talking boiling water or just hot tap water? I just don't want to damage the resin after I got such a good cast.

Hot tap water. It turns flexible pretty quick so dont overdo it.

Boiling water resin turns it back to liquid. Remember when you boiled your mouth-guard for football? SAME thing, but... worse.

insaniak wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:We don't know enough about the physical properties of the metal alloy, the resin type, or the mould types, to definitively say that metal yields less detail than resin in the same mould.

The Carnosaur pictures someone posted earlier are a definite hint, though. The difference there definitely wasn't just down to the different photographic properties of the materials... The detail on the resin was noticable clearer and sharper.

I agree, it appears that when they get it right, they get it very right.

I've seen good ones, and they're pretty good

The rest though, not so much..

insaniak wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:We don't know enough about the physical properties of the metal alloy, the resin type, or the mould types, to definitively say that metal yields less detail than resin in the same mould.

The Carnosaur pictures someone posted earlier are a definite hint

, though. The difference there definitely wasn't just down to the different photographic properties of the materials... The detail on the resin was noticable clearer and sharper.

How do you factor in how old the metal carnosaur mold was , compared to this new finecast ones?

There are too many unchecked variables to make that conclusion.

The conclusion that the detail on the resin was clearer and sharper was based on the fact that in the pictures provided, the detail on the resin was clearer and sharper.

GW have historically been pretty good at keeping the moulds for their metals in good condition.

Well, seeing as how I dicked around all night lastnight I never got a chance to go the store and check out the Finecast stuff on release day, so I took a trip up there today and checked it out.

Turns out it was pretty slim pickings...if my store did get a few blisters, they were all gone by the time I got there. All I saw was 40k stuff, no WHF or LotR Finecast at all (both seem to be less popular at my store so it makes sense that they probably wouldn't have gotten any at all, or very few). They had Lelith and Urien for DE, two Eldar autarchs, one Castellan Crowe, two Astoraths, one Dante, one Abaddon, two jump pack chaplains, and a Logan Grimnar. They also had a box of incubi, a lictor, and a hive tyrant (almost $60? good god man). I took a look at Abaddon immediately and I have to say I do think the resin one looks much better...even though the model is ancient I found myself tempted to buy it just because. I never noticed how much detail the model had until now. I was hoping I could just pick up a succubus blister or something since I already had an unopened metal one I could compare it to, but they didn't have any so I was looking at the Lelith models...and passed on both of them. One of them had an obviously miscast right foot which would have required me learning how to sculpt toes, but other than that the model looked fairly clean, and the other one was slightly messier and her left foot wasn't even attached to the pole on the base. Didn't want Urien, didn't need Abaddon (strictly buying what I need for DE and taking a good long break from GW), so I took a gamble and bought an incubi box.

I mentioned the fact at the register that I had read about Finecast models online (to which the guy said they were supposed to be really good), but I told him I hadn't heard that and that I was pretty worried about what I was going to get in said box since I couldn't inspect it beforehand...I told him that I'd heard of people getting shorted a whole model on the incubi boxes in particular and that there were a lot of miscasts. They only had one box of incubi, so if I got a bad cast then I was screwed and would have to put in a call to GW customer service (seriously, if they try to tell me I have to ship the gak back to them on my dime, because of their* screw up, I'd have probably given them a piece of my mind over it). Anyway, after I paid I went out to the car and opened the box, and I think I must have just gotten lucky because I had all five models for one, and a look at each individual model didn't show anything real terrible. There are some holes here and there, the worst one being the edge of a shoulderpad not formed right/broken off, and one of the horns on the helmet is a little bit shorter than the other one because the tip appears to be broken off, but other than that they seem pretty decent. A lot of flash, which as others have said comes off with almost no effort so no big deal...some mold lines that look kinda intimidating but I'm taking everyone's word for it that they should come off easily. One thing I find concerning is that some areas look kinda rough or porous, instead of being completely smooth and crisp.

I happen to have a box of the metals that are still unassembled, so I compared the two directly. In my honest opinion, after looking very closely (and possibly straining my eyes a little too much), I have to say that some details on the Finecast models did look a little sharper or crisper than the metal counterparts, but I'm not entirely sure if that's just a trick due to the way metal reflects light or if the resin really is better-detailed.

So, final verdict: while some details do appear finer than the metal counterparts, I think it's probably offset by the fact that I now have certain things to deal with that I didn't before, like holes/air bubbles in flat surfaces that must be filled, and the fact that the new material just feels weird holding it in my hand...it just feels brittle and like if I'm not careful with it I could end up breaking something, especially fiddly bits like spikes and horns, so if you're a Dark Eldar player then keep that in mind when handling the models. Other than that I don't really have anything scathingly negative or fanboyishly positive to say about them, other than the fact that the sculpts themselves are still as badass as they looked before. When I first saw those blurry pictures leaked back around October I knew I'd have to have them.

If I did have one negative thing to say though, it'd be the god-damned PRICE. I can't tell you how mad I was when I walked up to the register knowing full well I'd have to spend an extra $6-7 on the same damn models I bought in November, especially when combined with the fact that buying them in the first place was a huge gamble considering all the negative things I'd heard about Finecast here on Dakka. However I'm happy to say I wasn't disappointed and that I won't need to call GW for replacements...assuming I didn't miss some glaring flaw in them that I'll discover later on when assembling them. Well...disappointed in the models, that is, the price is still infuriating and it's only going to get worse year after year.

Also, sorry for the lack of pictures, I don't have access to a camera so if you're interested in comparison shots it'll have to wait until at least tomorrow...going to my parents house for a barbeque and I might borrow theirs since I need to list some things on eBay.



*I guess when putting emphasis on a word it helps if you spell it right.

Yes, please post the comparison pictures.

I think you did not see much difference because the metal Incubi came out of brand new molds. That is something i learned over the years: buy the metal stuff the day it gets released, because as the molds age the detail becomes less sharp. I am looking forward to seeing people post 1 to 1 comparisons of primed (preferably gray) models so that we can see if the change in detail is actually there.

Glad you got lucky with the box.

thebadabwar wrote:Yes, please post the comparison pictures.

I think you did not see much difference because the metal Incubi came out of brand new molds. That is something i learned over the years: buy the metal stuff the day it gets released, because as the molds age the detail becomes less sharp. I am looking forward to seeing people post 1 to 1 comparisons of primed (preferably gray) models so that we can see if the change in detail is actually there.

Glad you got lucky with the box.

Molds running metal don't loose detail overtime, except as a result of tearout. I've seen the same mold for a shield in service for years, and it was only retired because it had been over-vulcanized enough by the heat of the metal being run through it so much that it was no longer sealing properly, so that the parts were always flashy. The detail itself was just as good as the day it was made.

What I've seen with GW metals is that it seems they often pay a bit more attention to quality and running the molds hot and fast enough to ensure crisp fill with new releases, then let it slide for restocking. If the mold is too cool/not spun fast enough, it doesn't quite force the metal into the fine details of the cavity enough, leading to a more "washed out" appearance. Having talked to people that have worked doing casting for GW, they do tend to a "grab off the shelf and run" set-up, expecting to keep castings from the very first spin, and not needing to worry about keeping a mold hot, which is why you see such generous venting on their metal models.

What is the heat tolerance on the Finecast material? Summers here get pretty hot (45C/113F), would there be a risk of coming home to a Raider of the Lost Ark-style mess on my model shelf?

My one FC model thus far, looks really nice. Sorry the pictures don't show more, out of town with only my camera phone.

Ehsteve wrote:

Zathras wrote:

htj wrote:

Temujin wrote:

Ehsteve wrote:Can't wait to see Inquisitorial assassins in finecast, I need a new vindicator...

Wouldn't a vindicator make a rather conspicuous and unsubtle assassin?

Reckon it'd get the job done, though.

It'd put a whole new meaning to the term "BOOM....HEADSHOT!!!!"

Does your tank have a 4+ dodge save?

When she hides behind a wall, rubble or trees, yes she does.

Despite the carnosaur looking awesome, i just got a metal one off ebay... $66 is too much.

I will give finecast a chance down the line most likely... but want to wait out these miscasts first...

Hmm - I may have accidentally ordered a Finecast Lord Commissar from Maelstrom. I was trying to take advantage of the 18% off voucher, and didn't think that Saturday was the Finecast day of release. Oh well, we'll see when my order turns up.....

Wow, 33 pages allready!

I bought a Jump Cahplian, an Autarch and the Phoenix Guard champion.

Caradryan (sp?) and the Autarch had some minor bubbling (super glue fixed it) and a small chunk of the right shoulderguard was chipped.

The chaplain had bubbles on the botton of his feet, the from of the jetpack and a chunk missing out of the edging of one of his shouldperpads.

I didn't feel like going back to the store, so greenstuff fixed all the issues that superglue would not.

I'm really liking the feel and working of the resin but most likely won't be buying any more finecast for a few months until they work out the kinks.

I feel lucky, one guy at my store went through 6 Canis and four boxes of Calgar & honor guard. He never did get a good canis...

Here a review by Total Wargamer http://www.totalwargamer.co.uk/blog/?p=1342 .

Comparison pic:







Issues with bubbles: Yes.
Proof that Finecast has sharper edges and smoother surface: Yes.

Looks horrible to me. Here's the problems that seemed readily apparent, not to mention all the excess resin around the horns and various parts that look like they need a good cleaning.

Honestly, from those pics, the detail on the metal looks superior...

There are several layers of details to identify here... people say details are better here or there but I think they dont realise that details are not just the carved indentations on a miniature...

I see materials behave diferently in about 3 layers of detail:

Layer1 - Identations are the carved parts and these on this picture look cleaner and deeper on resin
Layer2 - Raised sharpness these are the spikes tips the blades edges and these look a lot better on metals since all finecasts look unsharped
Layer3 - The texture ( these are not very common on GW Styled miniatures )

So not looking at the other MAJOR facts that compromise the finecasts and talking about detail alone I think its a tie, better identations on resin but inferior sharpness on raised edges.

Not sure if I agree with point 1. Looking at the areas where there's enough natural shading to remove reflections (the underside of the right arm, for instance), the chain mail looks at least as well defined on the metal sculpt. As a few other people have noted, I'd really like to see a comparison where the metal's been hit with a quick wash of thinned black ink to kill the reflection and provide some shading.

The reflection on the photography makes direct comparison difficult. It would be much better for the sake of comparison if both minis were undercoated in the same neutral colour...

Alphacerberus wrote:it seems bigger moulds suffer due to finecast

but thankfully due to GW's amazing quality control none of these products ever see the shelves...oh wait a second.

ironicsilence wrote:Shame things arent turning out so good

we should be used to products not turning out so well with GW by now.

Lunchb0x wrote:This ladies and gentlemen, is how you shoot your self in the proverbial foot.

your asuming GW still has a foot left to shoot themselves in?

Claimh_Solais wrote:Perhaps a strange question but when do you think the next wave of finecast will come ?
1 month , 4-6 month - 1+ years ?

if GW have any sense and listen to what customers have been complaining about, never in a million years.

though since GW are ignorant probably as soon as possible to get the preteen boys dribbling over the staff again

Laughing Man wrote:Honestly, from those pics, the detail on the metal looks superior...

agreed, mostly due to the metal model not missing most of itself.

why do we even need failcasts claimed extra detail?, your models are like 2-3feet or more away from you on the table or sitting in your carry case, that extra detail ain't worth squat then.

puma713 wrote:Looks horrible to me. Here's the problems that seemed readily apparent, not to mention all the excess resin around the horns and various parts that look like they need a good cleaning.

Ah, I see the "quoting positive reviews and claiming they're evidence for how much GW sucks" game continues.

Well, yeah.

Apart from that it seems to me that what you win on the swings you lose on the roundabouts.

The metal warrior has sharper detail in some areas, worse in others. The resin model has more flash to clean, and some air bubbles and miscasting. Hopefully this kind of failure will be reduced by experience with the process.

The other point is that GW aren't always making the best quality metal models. We can't assume that one example of metal or resin is the best possible.

Once again I refer people to the Infinity metals and the Studio McVey resin and metal figures.

Stella Cadente wrote:we should be used to products not turning out so well with GW by now.

Unfair comment. They have done great things as well some bad things.

Stella Cadente wrote:

Laughing Man wrote:Honestly, from those pics, the detail on the metal looks superior...

agreed, mostly due to the metal model not missing most of itself.

why do we even need failcasts claimed extra detail?, your models are like 2-3feet or more away from you on the table or sitting in your carry case, that extra detail ain't worth squat then.

Your confusing casting quality with detail quality... and your last paragraph sorry but by that line of thinking you wouldnt mind the bubbles either.

insaniak wrote:The reflection on the photography makes direct comparison difficult. It would be much better for the sake of comparison if both minis were undercoated in the same neutral colour...

This is exactly what I was going to say...
It would be interesting to see the two minis, identically undercoated, next to each other, not be told which is which and see if we could tell the difference. I think if GW really had faith in their new wander product, they would take up this challenge themselves!!

NAVARRO wrote:

Stella Cadente wrote:we should be used to products not turning out so well with GW by now.

Unfair comment. They have done great things as well some bad things.

Stella Cadente wrote:

Laughing Man wrote:Honestly, from those pics, the detail on the metal looks superior...

agreed, mostly due to the metal model not missing most of itself.

why do we even need failcasts claimed extra detail?, your models are like 2-3feet or more away from you on the table or sitting in your carry case, that extra detail ain't worth squat then.

Your confusing casting quality with detail quality... and your last paragraph sorry but by that line of thinking you wouldnt mind the bubbles either.

*sits patiently for these mythical"great things" to be listed"
so you can't have casting quality and detail quality?...whats the point then?
and no I probably wouldn't mind the bubbles, if they are tiny and out of view, but when you have what people have claimed of whole arms/heads/weapons/models missing, THAT is noticeable and a sign of a poor product produced by a poor excuse for a company

I'm not going to put all the list of GW positive achievements here and will just post some examples:
Spacehulk and big plastic kits like trygon, gobbo spider.... etc
You may not like the style but they are quality products.

You can have casting quality and detail quality, a big part of the competitor companies achieved that already... the point is they are diferent factors that can compromise a miniature and you were confusing one for another.
I mind bubbles as much as I mind a miscast arm, both are ruining the figure for me.

RiTides wrote:Despite the carnosaur looking awesome, i just got a metal one off ebay... $66 is too much.

I will give finecast a chance down the line most likely... but want to wait out these miscasts first...

The level of miscasts probably won't get that much better. It's mostly exaggerated right now because they did a massive release of over 100 models over 3 different systems which also happened to be a hugely advertised release. A lot of people buying a lot of models on one day from a range that big is sure to find all the miscasts and shout it to the world.

Kroothawk wrote:

Top left of the upward pointing arrow just to the right of the skull in the necklace you've got a hollow air bubble that looks like flash but it's actually a detail on the metal. (not circled)

Vandil wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:

Top left of the upward pointing arrow just to the right of the skull in the necklace you've got a hollow air bubble that looks like flash but it's actually a detail on the metal. (not circled)

On the metal model there are nostrils on the skull that is hanging from the necklace. On the resin they are absent.

spaceelf wrote:

Vandil wrote:

Top left of the upward pointing arrow just to the right of the skull in the necklace you've got a hollow air bubble that looks like flash but it's actually a detail on the metal. (not circled)

On the metal model there are nostrils on the skull that is hanging from the necklace. On the resin they are absent.

While I'm disappointed because of all the issues these models are showing, I really want to see what the models that were not previous metal models look like and if they have the same issue. The new Tomb King releases will give us a good idea what to expect in the future. I'm excited about the direction the GW is going and hope we will see contunied development with this process. If you look at the the history of minatures, GW has been a driving force and the quality of most of their products have only improved with time.

When will the emperors champion be able to order?!?!?!

Lokirfellheart wrote:When will the emperors champion be able to order?!?!?!

Uh, now?

Caddery wrote:While I'm disappointed because of all the issues these models are showing, I really want to see what the models that were not previous metal models look like and if they have the same issue. The new Tomb King releases will give us a good idea what to expect in the future. I'm excited about the direction the GW is going and hope we will see contunied development with this process. If you look at the the history of minatures, GW has been a driving force and the quality of most of their products have only improved with time.

The Tomb King Finecast releases may give us an idea of what to expect. The problem is sculpting and development lead times, versus the R&D and implementation lead times of Finecast.. Just because Finecast released this past weekended doesn't mean every single new model released afterwards was sculpted with that in mind. Things like the great bow Ushabti, or generic Haemonculus, could easily be things sculpted a while ago, when metal was still the material in use, and sitting until their release rolled around.

Hmm, in all honesty, I think its really up to luck whether you get a good model or a bad one. Admittedly, it seems as though there are more bad examples than good ones.

I for one was quite content with metal, especially some of the newer kits. I think finecast is only really worth it if the metal model is older and not so well detailed. I'll be sticking to metal as long as possible methinks.

NAVARRO wrote:I'm not going to put all the list of GW positive achievements here and will just post some examples:
Spacehulk and big plastic kits like trygon, gobbo spider.... etc
You may not like the style but they are quality products..

one of which cost £60 and your not allowed to play it anywhere but home if GW is the only option available to you, positive achievement nulified., and plastic trygon and spider wow, now all I need is £40 to buy one of them or 120 other models, choices choices choices.

Stella Cadente wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:I'm not going to put all the list of GW positive achievements here and will just post some examples:
Spacehulk and big plastic kits like trygon, gobbo spider.... etc
You may not like the style but they are quality products..

one of which cost £60 and your not allowed to play it anywhere but home if GW is the only option available to you, positive achievement nulified., and plastic trygon and spider wow, now all I need is £40 to buy one of them or 120 other models, choices choices choices.

You still cannot deny they are 2 great, quality products. In your sig it blatantly says "GW SUCKS" which gives me reason to believe you'll just about slate anything in the defence of GW.

Also, space hulk has a load of great, good looking minis which are welcome in any store...

I picked up Ghaz on the weekend and was expecting disappointment quality wise. However, it wasn't as bad as everyone is making it out to be. To be honest the disappointment was the price. $46.50 CAN up from $42 did not get me a better product to be frank. Mind you the simple fact that it was easy to clean and put together made the 5 odd dollars worth the increase. The metal Ghaz was a nightmare to construct but the resin is far superior.

There was a little bubbling in the face but the bubbles were covered by his face shield so not noticeable. The foot had a small "toe" miscast but a small patch of greenstuff fixed it up nicely. Clean up took some time and greenstuf is highly recommended but over all I was happy with it and glad to get rid of the classic metal monster that was Ghaz. Superglue works fine for filling bubble holes which are there but not very much. Painting it is much easier as well since the resin holds paint like a champ. Overall I'd rate the resin Ghaz an 8/10.

puma713 wrote:Looks horrible to me. Here's the problems that seemed readily apparent, not to mention all the excess resin around the horns and various parts that look like they need a good cleaning.

Look at the belt buckle on ryesin too....it is flawed as well

NoBaconz4You wrote:

Stella Cadente wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:I'm not going to put all the list of GW positive achievements here and will just post some examples:
Spacehulk and big plastic kits like trygon, gobbo spider.... etc
You may not like the style but they are quality products..

one of which cost £60 and your not allowed to play it anywhere but home if GW is the only option available to you, positive achievement nulified., and plastic trygon and spider wow, now all I need is £40 to buy one of them or 120 other models, choices choices choices.

You still cannot deny they are 2 great, quality products. In your sig it blatantly says "GW SUCKS" which gives me reason to believe you'll just about slate anything in the defence of GW.

I'll slate any poor decision done by GW...which so far is practically everything they do.
heck I have praised GW a few times myself, the baneblade was nice, the grey knights are nice (but too expensive, £20 for 5 toys is slowed), many things have been nice or ok, but covered quickly in steaming green poo

NoBaconz4You wrote:Also, space hulk has a load of great, good looking minis which are welcome in any store...

which store is this?, as none of the GW's I've been in allow the models from space hulk to be used

Fetterkey wrote:
Ah, I see the "quoting positive reviews and claiming they're evidence for how much GW sucks" game continues.

Seriously? So you suggest we just ignore those glaring flaws in the model because of it's "sharper detail"? I see the "sticking my head in the sand" game continues.

NoBaconz4You wrote:

Lokirfellheart wrote:When will the emperors champion be able to order?!?!?!

Uh, now?

Ah. I used the search tool on the site to find it, and it came up with what must be the old entry- It didn't have the finecast background and it had no order button.

Stella Cadente wrote:

NoBaconz4You wrote:

Stella Cadente wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:I'm not going to put all the list of GW positive achievements here and will just post some examples:
Spacehulk and big plastic kits like trygon, gobbo spider.... etc
You may not like the style but they are quality products..

one of which cost £60 and your not allowed to play it anywhere but home if GW is the only option available to you, positive achievement nulified., and plastic trygon and spider wow, now all I need is £40 to buy one of them or 120 other models, choices choices choices.

You still cannot deny they are 2 great, quality products. In your sig it blatantly says "GW SUCKS" which gives me reason to believe you'll just about slate anything in the defence of GW.

I'll slate any poor decision done by GW...which so far is practically everything they do.
heck I have praised GW a few times myself, the baneblade was nice, the grey knights are nice (but too expensive, £20 for 5 toys is slowed), many things have been nice or ok, but covered quickly in steaming green poo

NoBaconz4You wrote:Also, space hulk has a load of great, good looking minis which are welcome in any store...

which store is this?, as none of the GW's I've been in allow the models from space hulk to be used

Really? What stores are those? (BTW my store is GW Hereford) I think you might have misunderstood - sure most stores don't have the room for Space Hulk (a minority game, compared to WH40K and WHFB TTG) but the minis are usable in any GW store, they are GW products to the correct scale and factions in WH40K providing they're on a suitable base.

Anyone can dislike GW for the decisions they make, it's not gonna change much sarcastically whining about it on a thread, but it still doesn't change the fact that some of their minis are top notch. Also, I don't think the fact that you consider them just to be 'toys' helps much...

And;

steaming green poo

I'm not sure what you mean here

Some of their minis are amazing and I agree that SpaceHulk has some beautiful models in it.

The thing scaring me is people saying"its a brilliant model, there were a few air bubbles which I filled with superglue, and a little bit of gs here and there, now the model is perfect"

You are basically giving acceptance to something which is inferior to its predecessor and paying more. For the money GW charge there should be no air bubbles and I shouldnt have to break out the gs, at my time and expense to bring it to an aceptable standard.

I have been building gw models for around 20 years and the thought of dripping superglue onto a model, where it will bond instantly freaks me out, as the potential to wreck an expensive model is huge. I would return it, or get a gw staffer to do it. Then if he balls it up I would expect a refund.

Anyway up-shot is YES GW produce some breathtakingly beautiful mini's and their quality is right up there, but right now, what finecast offers is not quality and not value..... this should never have been released until they had QA, QC properly in hand and the staff fully trained and cometent in the new casting techniques.

I'm paranoid now. I will hold off ordering the new Wracks because I don't want some bubble-filled, toe-lacking freaks of nature.

I just want the regular freaks of nature that Wracks are.

Maybe the wracks are supposed to be toeless bubbly freaks

Caddery wrote:While I'm disappointed because of all the issues these models are showing, I really want to see what the models that were not previous metal models look like and if they have the same issue. The new Tomb King releases will give us a good idea what to expect in the future. I'm excited about the direction the GW is going and hope we will see contunied development with this process. If you look at the the history of minatures, GW has been a driving force and the quality of most of their products have only improved with time.

I'm glad you're ok w/ imposed embargo's across the globe. 25% price increases for inferior products. Being treated like crap since you can't be trusted with information about future releases. You're exactly the kind of customer GW wants. Yep, GW is going in a good direction...right into the can.

There is no way this new process hasn't been in the pipe for a very long time. For everyone else defending GW because this is a new process and they have to become competent on how to effectively produce models...Wow! To sit back and say this is actually quite delusional. Especially for a company that has been producing models for over 25+ years.

There are only two options available concerning this move to resin and the issues it currently shows. Either GW has taken the time to make this process the best that it can be and this is as good as it will get. ( Which means GW has failed as a company to live up to their hype and have failed as a modeling company with 25+ years of experience). Or, GW rushed this process out before they were competent enough to actually produce a decent miniature. ( Which means they don't give a rat's hairy ass about the customer, their reputation, or potential losses from this failed release).

@Rymafyr:

There is a third option. There could be an individual or group of individuals somewhere in GW who are primarily responsible for selling management on this switch who are now sweating in their boots as they wait to find out the chances of their continued employment.

I just bought another two blisters (after studying them closely first): Corteaz & the Ork Big Mek.

Corteaz is a close to perfect as I've seen. There is just a very tiny bubble at the underside of the front of his underarm's armour which might as well just be a tiny dent. It will probably be covered up by painting over it.

The Mek has a few more small bubbles, however none of them are in relevant and visable places. Alll except one are on the hardly visable undersides of metal parts that can also pass for tiny dents in the armour/metal. The "worst" one is on the underside of the front of the bag he is wearing, and can likely be fixed in a second by a small drop of glue. It's not a big deal.

They were the first blisters of these models I took off the display, so I didn't have to go through 4 or 5 blisters before finding any good ones.

At least this is some positive news among the many miscasts that are also out there

(I still wouldn't buy anything unseen though)

Perhaps I will post some pictures later when I'm home from work.

Saldiven wrote:@Rymafyr:

There is a third option. There could be an individual or group of individuals somewhere in GW who are primarily responsible for selling management on this switch who are now sweating in their boots as they wait to find out the chances of their continued employment.

By the end of the month of June, I can see that as a very distinct possibility. Good call there.

Is there going to be a point where you can expect the models not to have such deforming air bubbles?
I'm shocked at the number of people pointing out their "good" casts when they have obvious defects.

I have to agree with those who say "for the price, we should not have to fix a model in order to have a complete or acceptable one".

GW has been around for years and this level of product QC is unacceptable. I have never had any issues with the metal and plastic kits I have purchased up to date and have solidly defended GW as having some of the nicest minis on the market. I just can't defend a "superior" product that has obvious QC issues. :-(

dantay_xv wrote:The thing scaring me is people saying"its a brilliant model, there were a few air bubbles which I filled with superglue, and a little bit of gs here and there, now the model is perfect"

While I understand your point here, don't forget that a lot of metal models have (had) metal brambles or pieces of flash in places that makes them almost impossible to remove.

I'd rather have a tiny bubble that can be fixed by a small drop of glue (or just by painting over it, and it depends where on the model it's located also) than having to perform hour-long circus tricks to file away some of those metal flash-brambles (or worse) I've encountered in the past.

This of course doesn't mean that all those current miscasts are in any way acceptable, but let's not pretend that metal is/was 100% perfect either. Both materials will probably never be entirely issue-free.

TBD wrote:
(I still wouldn't buy anything unseen though)

This makes me wonder about how the online market will be affected.

I find it strange that so many people seem to be claiming that small amounts of flash and the odd air bubble on otherwise perfect casts (yes there have been very bad casts too) is totally unacceptable as if GW have lampooned you with shoddy gak for your hard earned money.

This level of discontent is more to do with utterly unrealistic expectations, a general dislike for GW as a company an probably a lack of wider miniature experience.

I don't think you'll find any resin figure without some tiny imperfections, whatever the cost. It's undeniable that the good casts from the finecast range are superior to even the best metal casts from GW - whether it's because of finer rendered detail, workability of the material etc

It depends on the level which you deem a model acceptable to begin painting on but given the amount of pre-paint prep I'm used to having to do on metal figures to remove difficult mould lines, burs, flash and pitting, filling the odd small airbubble and removing (much easier to remove) mould lines on the new resin wins hands down any day.

Yes, there have been a number of vocal "horror story" cases shown online, but I still refuse to believe that these are the majority. QA has clearly been variable at best in a lot o instances but there has clearly also been a lot of unrealistic expectation too.

CMDante wrote: a lot of unrealistic expectation too.

Yeah, and GW's hype about their new amazing, hobby-changing material had nothing to do with the customer's expectations, right?

Sorry CMdante but "unrealistic expectations" as you say, are a reality in other companies... so unless you cant understand that GW is not alone and theres options outhere that deliver the goods you cannot really say they are unrealistic.

The level of acceptance for these amateur casts is mindblowing really...

CMDante wrote:I don't think you'll find any resin figure without some tiny imperfections, whatever the cost.

actually my resin early tiger from die waffenkammer had no imperfections at all, nothing, nada, ziltch, it was complete perfection, no bubbles, no holes, nothing missing, nothing.

puma713 wrote:

CMDante wrote: a lot of unrealistic expectation too.

Yeah, and GW's hype about their new amazing, hobby-changing material had nothing to do with the customer's expectations, right?

don't forget the claim at being "the best model soldiers in the world", that has no effect on peoples expectations either right?, I mean its almost as if that claim would mean you expect the best model soldiers in the world

Your right - by saying that what they really said is "you will never experience any imperfection in our products... Except that's not what they've said and instead how you have interpreted it?

When it comes to wargames miniatures I believe they do probably make the best available. This is the point where you next reply provides your contrasting opinion - but you know what they say about opinions right?

Navarro - yep, the bad casts are bad but the ones that have come out normal are as good a quality as any mass-manufacturer could reasonably expect. Look at the military modelling Market - there is a whole aftermarket for products to prepare kits for painting and improve upon the detailing on originals.

Yes, GW hyped this release up - and why would that be unacceptable for a business to attempt to generate interest in it's products. Yes, quite a number of casts should never have passed QA but people are being ridiculously critical due to the unrealistic e pectation that there should be no pre-paint prep what-so-ever.

Hell in their own magazine they describe that there will be some imperfections and provide info on how to fix these so don't try to claim to be "fooled" into thinking (on the good casts) there should be no minor imperfections. You are only deluding yourself and being unrealistic lads.

Nothing is perfect, period. Doesn't matter what anyone says about it - there are flaws to be found on some level, no matter how miniscule.

That said, GW has been talking a big talk for years about being the best of the best of the best. They practically wrapped the descriptions of Finecast in gold as they sold it to us - telling us it was so far and beyond better than anything we'd ever seen. It was the most superior line of models out there.

So when GW steps up with that kind of dialogue, talks a big game, people are naturally going to be skeptical. Add to that the massive gakstorm GW has stirred up, and there's where your negativity comes from. People, myself included, wanted Finecast to be the silver lining of a pretty gaked-up month of announcements from GW, but it's not.

At all. Or even close. Finecast is acceptable, but it's not a decent improvement over metal unless you consider weight and workability (not quality), but as the best and most amazing stuff out there, as GW sold it to us as, it is fail. GW needs to put up or shut up when it comes to their product. Nuff said.

..and raised prices significantly in most cases, which leads one to think, "Oh, this really must be the best possible miniature in the world if I'm having to pay 25% more for it than the metal version!"

I don't think anyone here ever expects perfection from any model, however, the glaring miscasts and other issues in this 'finecast' product do nothing to stoke confidence in any of us. As it's been said before, if I'm having to spend the amount of time still prepping a model, GS'ing, removing imperfections, filling bubbles and all that but still have to pay up to 25% more for that model...it's not worth it.

Sorry Again CMdante but please do check other companies that deliver the goods... if they can so can GW thats the least that anyone should expect from them... and thats not irrealistic. What I find really sad and have a hard time to understand is the level of product we have seen is par with the worst garage caster amateur.

I will give you a example... GW metals... were they the best of the market? No but they were good casts and a very nice compromise and people in general accepted them even with small flaws... but these finecasts problems seen are not by far small or discreet flaws they are in fact compromising the model quality... and at these prices levels you cannot expect garage kits to please a serious collector.

Is the argument over whether metal was better than finecast or that other manufacturers are better than GW? Ultimately both come down to opinion - particularly on the point of other manufcturers.

When it comes to finecast v metal though, here is how I base my opinion:

Crispness and rendering of detail on the sculpt.

Surface quality.

Clean up and workability of the material.

Now in my opinion, finecast trumps GW's metals on all counts.

CMDante wrote:Is the argument over whether metal was better than finecast or that other manufacturers are better than GW? Ultimately both come down to opinion - particularly on the point of other manufcturers.

When it comes to finecast v metal though, here is how I base my opinion:

Crispness and rendering of detail on the sculpt.

Surface quality.

Clean up and workability of the material.

Now in my opinion, finecast trumps GW's metals on all counts.

I agree.

If the miscasts never happened, I cannot see a drawback. It would be a step forward in every way.

CMDante wrote:I find it strange that so many people seem to be claiming that small amounts of flash and the odd air bubble on otherwise perfect casts (yes there have been very bad casts too) is totally unacceptable as if GW have lampooned you with shoddy gak for your hard earned money.

This level of discontent is more to do with utterly unrealistic expectations, a general dislike for GW as a company an probably a lack of wider miniature experience.

Yet to buy a finecast model myself but to be frank I don't think the issue is simply that the models do not meet the expectations but rather people are expecting more due to GW own hype and being less than impressed with another price rise well above the rate of inflation, I think as a customer what I find to be a real kick in the nuts is that really GW have moved to resin the cut down on costs but have tried to hype it up as something isn't, I think if the prices had just stayed the same you wouldn't see all this anger directed towards the company, personally I feel a lot of fanboys out here are just blind to the bigger picture. Do any of the fanboys really think GW give a monkey's about your custom? all you do is feed the machine that will constantly increases prices at alarming rates, essentially making GW fatter and lazier, just look at the rules these days, so many of you don't make GW work for you money, you just hand it over like a idiot, its almost like running round the street setting £50 notes on fire.

When it comes to finecast v metal though, here is how I base my opinion:

Crispness and rendering of detail on the sculpt.

Surface quality.

Clean up and workability of the material.

Now in my opinion, finecast trumps GW's metals on all counts.

Actually I really can't see a difference in the detail, resin is just easier to photograph than metal, also is the detail so much better than it warrants such a hefty price rise?

TBD wrote:I just bought another two blisters (after studying them closely first): Corteaz & the Ork Big Mek.

Corteaz is a close to perfect as I've seen. There is just a very tiny bubble at the underside of the front of his underarm's armour which might as well just be a tiny dent. It will probably be covered up by painting over it.

The Mek has a few more small bubbles, however none of them are in relevant and visable places. Alll except one are on the hardly visable undersides of metal parts that can also pass for tiny dents in the armour/metal. The "worst" one is on the underside of the front of the bag he is wearing, and can likely be fixed in a second by a small drop of glue. It's not a big deal.

They were the first blisters of these models I took off the display, so I didn't have to go through 4 or 5 blisters before finding any good ones.

At least this is some positive news among the many miscasts that are also out there

(I still wouldn't buy anything unseen though)

Perhaps I will post some pictures later when I'm home from work.

Frankly this is the only way to buy them right now. I bought 6 pieces. 4 in blisters were near perfect. The 2 in boxes were messed up. At this point buying the blisters online at a discount is also in question as you can't visually inspect them before purchase.

Personally I didn't have any problem with GW's metal models except when they tried to make models that are too large. They should have moved those models over to plastic years ago.

CMDante wrote:Is the argument over whether metal was better than finecast or that other manufacturers are better than GW? Ultimately both come down to opinion - particularly on the point of other manufcturers.

When it comes to finecast v metal though, here is how I base my opinion:

Crispness and rendering of detail on the sculpt.

Surface quality.

Clean up and workability of the material.

Now in my opinion, finecast trumps GW's metals on all counts.

That's fine, if you can get quality castings of finecast models.

But apparently my expectation of having at least one usable model out of the $128US of Finecast I bought (not counting the $150US of additional boxes they opened trying, and failing, to find an acceptable Canis), is unrealistic. I guess I should be happy that maybe 1 out of the 12 sprues worth of Finecast I got is actually of decent casting quality.

And it's not a matter of a few tiny bubbles in the middle of a surface, but whole portions of a model missing, or distorted and destroyed detail. My professional standard, as a caster, is to not send out something that requires the customer to have to resculpt part of the model. Surely, with GW claiming these as " the highest quality miniatures the world has ever seen", they can meet that bar?

itsonlyme wrote:
Yet to buy a finecast model myself but to be frank I don't think the issue is simply that the models do not meet the expectations but rather people are expecting more due to GW own hype and being less than impressed with another price rise well above the rate of inflation, I think as a customer what I find to be a real kick in the nuts is that really GW have moved to resin the cut down on costs but have tried to hype it up as something isn't, I think if the prices had just stayed the same you wouldn't see all this anger directed towards the company, personally I feel a lot of fanboys out here are just blind to the bigger picture. Do any of the fanboys really think GW give a monkey's about your custom? all you do is feed the machine that will constantly increases prices at alarming rates, essentially making GW fatter and lazier, just look at the rules these days, so many of you don't make GW work for you money, you just hand it over like a idiot, its almost like running round the street setting £50 notes on fire.

I don't consider myself a fanboy, nor do I game. I do consider myself a very experienced minitaure modeller and I would say, for what I got from the Finecast purchase I have made and the enjoyment it gives me, it was worth the money. Would I like it if it was cheaper? Of course, but for me, price isn't my main consideration in purchasing.

When it comes to finecast v metal though, here is how I base my opinion:

Crispness and rendering of detail on the sculpt.

Surface quality.

Clean up and workability of the material.

Now in my opinion, finecast trumps GW's metals on all counts.

Actually I really can't see a difference in the detail, resin is just easier to photograph than metal, also is the detail so much better than it warrants such a hefty price rise?

puma713 wrote:

TBD wrote:
(I still wouldn't buy anything unseen though)

This makes me wonder about how the online market will be affected.

Some Chinese recasters wet dream just came true! I've gotten a few off ebay that are honestly hard to tell aren't legit.

CMDante wrote:Is the argument over whether metal was better than finecast or that other manufacturers are better than GW? Ultimately both come down to opinion - particularly on the point of other manufcturers.

When it comes to finecast v metal though, here is how I base my opinion:

Crispness and rendering of detail on the sculpt.

Surface quality.

Clean up and workability of the material.

Now in my opinion, finecast trumps GW's metals on all counts.

Its not a matter of opinion if you have :

- One resin line full of bubbles from X manufacturer
- One resin line with zero bubbles from Y manufacturer

And Im not even addressing the wrappage and flash and miscasts and not cutted from sprues issues.

You can argue all you want its down personal taste or opinions but its really not the case here. See my point?

As for metal vs resin debate I was not addressing that I was only giving you a example of an acceptable quality standart at gw... But if you want to go there yes I agree thats a more subjective and down to personal opinion thing... Mind I like all materials (except prepainted) if they are professionally done.

Alendrel wrote:

That's fine, if you can get quality castings of finecast models.

But apparently my expectation of having at least one usable model out of the $128US of Finecast I bought (not counting the $150US of additional boxes they opened trying, and failing, to find an acceptable Canis), is unrealistic. I guess I should be happy that maybe 1 out of the 12 sprues worth of Finecast I got is actually of decent casting quality.

And it's not a matter of a few tiny bubbles in the middle of a surface, but whole portions of a model missing, or distorted and destroyed detail. My professional standard, as a caster, is to not send out something that requires the customer to have to resculpt part of the model. Surely, with GW claiming these as " the highest quality miniatures the world has ever seen", they can meet that bar?

Of course, but if you'll read what I have said, at no point have I said that those points apply to the bad quality casts or that the QA has been without fault no?

The casts where whole parts of the model are missing clearly fall in the bad cast category - I've seen the same happen with metal miniatures too so its not a valid argument agaisnt the material or it's quality, but of the QA which I am not debating.


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NAVARRO wrote:

Its not a matter of opinion if you have :

- One resin line full of bubbles from X manufacturer
- One resin line with zero bubbles from Y manufacturer

And Im not even addressing the wrappage and flash and miscasts and not cutted from sprues issues.

You can argue all you want its down personal taste or opinions but its really not the case here. See my point?

As for metal vs resin debate I was not addressing that I was only giving you a example of an acceptable quality standart at gw... But if you want to go there yes I agree thats a more subjective and down to personal opinion thing... Mind I like all materials (except prepainted) if they are professionally done.

No I really don't see your point - it is obviously a matter of opinion since we are clearly disagreeing over opposing opinions no?

Prove to me that there are manufacturers who NEVER produce figures with minor imperfections - I suspect you can't unless you personally check every figure that goes out from every resin manufacturer. Therefore, if your opinion is that some manufacturers do based on your personal experiences of their ranges, while my opinion contrasts that - then it is what it is - a difference of opinions.

I think what people should really be discussing is what they realistically want from a miniature and what they think these miniatures aren't meeting.

Realistically, I have never bought any model kit without accepting that there will be pre-paint work involved and if you go into such a purchase believing that shouldn't be the case then I believe you are being unrealistic.

thebadabwar wrote:Frankly this is the only way to buy them right now. I bought 6 pieces. 4 in blisters were near perfect. The 2 in boxes were messed up. At this point buying the blisters online at a discount is also in question as you can't visually inspect them before purchase.

And if I were a skeptical, cynical old gamer, I'd almost begin to think this is part of GW's plan:

1) Use much cheaper resin/plastic material - check
2) Raise prices higher than the already high price of metals (while using cheaper material) - check
3) Release product before all the QA stuff is in place - check
4) Cause people to feel that ordering online is too much of a crapshoot, so they'll come to GW store or LGS to buy them - check
5) See decline in units moved, but maintain small profit due to increased price - TBD

And as for other manufacturers, I've ordered lots of stuff from Warlord Games, plastic romans, metal romans, and resin characters - they've all been perfect. Minimal to no flash, no stringy metal bits all over the model, no bubbles or mistakes in the resin. Just desprue, assemble, and paint.

I've also ordered lots of 10mm metals, cowboys, pirates, historicals in metal from a variety of manufacturers and they've been better than GW in terms of mold lines, flash, and miscasts.

On GW's side, they've always been superb about returns and replacing bad product. Of course, metal miscasts I've encountered with GW were few and far between. Who knows how their policy changes if people decide to actually complain about these miscasts, air bubbles, etc., rather than having to fix them. They could have a lot of work on their hands (of course, I"m sure it costs GW pennies with their cheaper material - I mean, Mantic is doubling the contents of their boxed sets, and they're using the same/similar material).

Time to add my two penneth's worth.

I'm disappointed and more than a little peeved. The majority of Finecost miniatures I've seen pictures of or read reviews of have had hideous flaws, such as air bubbles or voids obliterating parts of the detail. Often these details would be very difficult to resculpt unless you have a great deal of sculpting experience. These flaws are even present on several miniatures shown on the GW website, presumably the best casts they could find. If even they can't find good quality casts to showcase, what hope is there for me? I keep reading positive reviews saying that so-and-so model was really good quality, except it was missing part of it's fingers, or foot, or weapon etc. Um... that is not good quality.

This is hugely discouraging and I don't think it is an overreaction to be worried and annoyed by the prospect of recieving faulty goods for marked up prices.
I do not expect perfection, I can cope with excessive amounts of flash and mould lines, even with a small amount of warping. But at these prices the miniature itself had better be complete and undamaged.

I have never had a problem with a metal miniature, besides basic cleanup. I understand that metal miscasts do happen but it seems they are much rarer. Weight is not important to me, neither is the visibility of details pre-painting. I have never needed to pin a metal mini - a bit of grey stuff mixed with superglue creates an incredibly strong bond, if required. I'm glad they're softer than metal, but they actually sound much too soft. So these much touted benefits of resin mean nothing to me. I am intrigued by the conversion possibilities and am glad that paint will not chip off these models, but these are minor advantages when weighed against the prospect bad quality casts. We are being charged more for an inferior product.

I was actually glad when I heard GW were switching to resin. I assumed it would be cheaper. I also assumed that, given the high quality of most of their miniatures, there would be few casting problems. One of GW's few remaining virtues is (or was) their high quality. This is not a matter of expecting zero imperfections. They promised the best of the best. If other, smaller, companies can produce resin miniatures without this many flaws, then so can GW. If other, smaller, companies can reduce prices when they switch to resin, then so can GW.

There are (or were) a great many metal minis I'd planned to buy. but I have no intention of spending my money, time and effort sending back defective miniatures (that cost an arm and a leg) and therefore I will not be playing Resin Roulette. I will not be buying Finecast minis, except perhaps when I can view them in advance. Absolutely no boxes or mail orders. They are not worth the money. Quite frankly, with quality like this, I think they'd be expensive at half the price.

Going back...

CMDante wrote:I find it strange that so many people seem to be claiming that small amounts of flash and the odd air bubble on otherwise perfect casts (yes there have been very bad casts too) is totally unacceptable as if GW have lampooned you with shoddy gak for your hard earned money.

This level of discontent is more to do with utterly unrealistic expectations, a general dislike for GW as a company an probably a lack of wider miniature experience.

I don't think you'll find any resin figure without some tiny imperfections, whatever the cost. It's undeniable that the good casts from the finecast range are superior to even the best metal casts from GW - whether it's because of finer rendered detail, workability of the material etc

It depends on the level which you deem a model acceptable to begin painting on but given the amount of pre-paint prep I'm used to having to do on metal figures to remove difficult mould lines, burs, flash and pitting, filling the odd small airbubble and removing (much easier to remove) mould lines on the new resin wins hands down any day.

Yes, there have been a number of vocal "horror story" cases shown online, but I still refuse to believe that these are the majority. QA has clearly been variable at best in a lot o instances but there has clearly also been a lot of unrealistic expectation too.

I haven't seen any horror stores about models with pinprick holes or such being ballied about. I have seen plenty about about grievous faults. I've seen people post up pics of their supposedly good minis that have a half dozen miscast spots they didn't notice. People aren't mad about having to clean their Finecast models, but at them requiring substantial resculpting work - and some stores pushing that as OK.

The quality of the material means jack and all if one doesn't get a casting worth keeping and using.

Alendrel wrote:Going back...

CMDante wrote:I find it strange that so many people seem to be claiming that small amounts of flash and the odd air bubble on otherwise perfect casts (yes there have been very bad casts too) is totally unacceptable as if GW have lampooned you with shoddy gak for your hard earned money.

This level of discontent is more to do with utterly unrealistic expectations, a general dislike for GW as a company an probably a lack of wider miniature experience.

I don't think you'll find any resin figure without some tiny imperfections, whatever the cost. It's undeniable that the good casts from the finecast range are superior to even the best metal casts from GW - whether it's because of finer rendered detail, workability of the material etc

It depends on the level which you deem a model acceptable to begin painting on but given the amount of pre-paint prep I'm used to having to do on metal figures to remove difficult mould lines, burs, flash and pitting, filling the odd small airbubble and removing (much easier to remove) mould lines on the new resin wins hands down any day.

Yes, there have been a number of vocal "horror story" cases shown online, but I still refuse to believe that these are the majority. QA has clearly been variable at best in a lot o instances but there has clearly also been a lot of unrealistic expectation too.

I haven't seen any horror stores about models with pinprick holes or such being ballied about. I have seen plenty about about grievous faults. I've seen people post up pics of their supposedly good minis that have a half dozen miscast spots they didn't notice. People aren't mad about having to clean their Finecast models, but at them requiring substantial resculpting work - and some stores pushing that as OK.

The quality of the material means jack and all if one doesn't get a casting worth keeping and using.

Read back a bit further to the point where people were getting hyper critical about a few small air bubbles on the Chaos Warrior pictured a few pages back (and elsewhere on other forums). Those "faults" were not "substantial resculpting work".

In fairness, it was still far from the best example of quality of cast from the finecast range, and gain, opinion, but I wouldn't have been outraged as some seem to be to have purchased that model.

CMDante wrote:
I think what people should really be discussing is what they realistically want from a miniature and what they think these miniatures aren't meeting.

For the third time: a casting that does not require the customer to resculpt missing/damaged/destroyed portions of the model.


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CMDante wrote:

Alendrel wrote:Going back...

CMDante wrote:I find it strange that so many people seem to be claiming that small amounts of flash and the odd air bubble on otherwise perfect casts (yes there have been very bad casts too) is totally unacceptable as if GW have lampooned you with shoddy gak for your hard earned money.

This level of discontent is more to do with utterly unrealistic expectations, a general dislike for GW as a company an probably a lack of wider miniature experience.

I don't think you'll find any resin figure without some tiny imperfections, whatever the cost. It's undeniable that the good casts from the finecast range are superior to even the best metal casts from GW - whether it's because of finer rendered detail, workability of the material etc

It depends on the level which you deem a model acceptable to begin painting on but given the amount of pre-paint prep I'm used to having to do on metal figures to remove difficult mould lines, burs, flash and pitting, filling the odd small airbubble and removing (much easier to remove) mould lines on the new resin wins hands down any day.

Yes, there have been a number of vocal "horror story" cases shown online, but I still refuse to believe that these are the majority. QA has clearly been variable at best in a lot o instances but there has clearly also been a lot of unrealistic expectation too.

I haven't seen any horror stores about models with pinprick holes or such being ballied about. I have seen plenty about about grievous faults. I've seen people post up pics of their supposedly good minis that have a half dozen miscast spots they didn't notice. People aren't mad about having to clean their Finecast models, but at them requiring substantial resculpting work - and some stores pushing that as OK.

The quality of the material means jack and all if one doesn't get a casting worth keeping and using.

Read back a bit further to the point where people were getting hyper critical about a few small air bubbles on the Chaos Warrior pictured a few pages back (and elsewhere on other forums). Those "faults" were not "substantial resculpting work".

In fairness, it was still far from the best example of quality of cast from the finecast range, and gain, opinion, but I wouldn't have been outraged as some seem to be to have purchased that model.

Filling in at least two or three armor plates and reshaping them, filling in and resclupting the end of the scabbard, resculpting the missing chunk of boot...yeah that is substantial. Especially for what are supposed to be the best miniatures ever.

CMDante wrote:

Read back a bit further to the point where people were getting hyper critical about a few small air bubbles on the Chaos Warrior pictured a few pages back (and elsewhere on other forums). Those "faults" were not "substantial resculpting work".

In that case we have very different standards. Part of the foot was missing. Part of an armour plate was missing. The bottom of the scabbard was missing. Part of the skull on his chest was missing. There were several smaller flaws also. In my book these things were faults. And any way you spin it they required sculpting work. I have bought resin pieces before (not many, I'll grant you) and none of them had FAULTS like this. So my standards are not impossibly high, other manufacturers have set the bar.

Edited to say: Ninja'd

CMDante wrote:Prove to me that there are manufacturers who NEVER produce figures with minor imperfections - I suspect you can't unless you personally check every figure that goes out from every resin manufacturer. Therefore, if your opinion is that some manufacturers do based on your personal experiences of their ranges, while my opinion contrasts that - then it is what it is - a difference of opinions.

I can honestly say I've not seen a Studio McVey resin figure with defects - and as my LGS is amongst the few allowed to stock them in-store, I get to look at quite a few of them. Not every cast, certainly, but quite a few of them.

I believe, having spoken to Mike, that it is thanks to a process called "Quality Control".....

I've not been in the hobby very long. I started in November last year, and even I can tell that some of these pictures are just terribly cast.

It doesn't take a bitter, resentful longtime fan to decide it's bs to be charged 25% more than metal for a product made from cheaper materials where people are finding entire pieces of weapons or feet completely missing.

It's made me suspicious of the entire line and I just hope that it's over-reporting of problems, not an indicator of the overall quality.

CMDante wrote:[

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NAVARRO wrote:

Its not a matter of opinion if you have :

- One resin line full of bubbles from X manufacturer
- One resin line with zero bubbles from Y manufacturer

And Im not even addressing the wrappage and flash and miscasts and not cutted from sprues issues.

You can argue all you want its down personal taste or opinions but its really not the case here. See my point?

As for metal vs resin debate I was not addressing that I was only giving you a example of an acceptable quality standart at gw... But if you want to go there yes I agree thats a more subjective and down to personal opinion thing... Mind I like all materials (except prepainted) if they are professionally done.

No I really don't see your point - it is obviously a matter of opinion since we are clearly disagreeing over opposing opinions no?

Prove to me that there are manufacturers who NEVER produce figures with minor imperfections - I suspect you can't unless you personally check every figure that goes out from every resin manufacturer. Therefore, if your opinion is that some manufacturers do based on your personal experiences of their ranges, while my opinion contrasts that - then it is what it is - a difference of opinions.

I think what people should really be discussing is what they realistically want from a miniature and what they think these miniatures aren't meeting.

Realistically, I have never bought any model kit without accepting that there will be pre-paint work involved and if you go into such a purchase believing that shouldn't be the case then I believe you are being unrealistic.

Sigh... Lets try again. One last time. ( sorry no time to go on this over and over again)

Just because we are debating opinions on something it doesnt mean that the cold hard facts dont speak higher than both of us and that they are not present on the discussion.
You say that better casting on other companies are subjective and down to personal opinion... and I say I disagree with you because there are now and there were in the past manufacturers with a much better tracking record concerning bubbles and other issues.

And you refute that with the odd argument you havent checked the entire lines... yeah great, from that line of ideas you can doubt pretty much anything in the world because you havent checked it out by yourself... Theres a thing called information and other people experiences and those PLUS your personal experiences can give a closer to the truth perspective...

If thats not enough of a redundant hyperbole now you ask me to prove and name the manufacturers that cast things bubble free.

Some years ago I reviewed here Alkemy plastic resins and pure resins go check articles... did I check the full line? Nope I just got a full faction and 2 diferent materials and casts and read most reviews online concerning that... But yes its reasonable to think all crappy casts in alkemy were never bought and reviewed by anyone... another example Mcvey... praised by all as the sharpest on the market and I also personally checked them and yes some of the best right there... But there are plenty more if you care to search.

But are they perfect? Nope nothing perfect but that does not mean GW finecasts are on the same ball park or universe just because theres nothing perfect... Lets just say theres levels of quality and those are measured by the sum of all things related to a particular manufacturer and their independent reviews...
Considering the finecasts casts MINOR issues is not knowing what minor means for lots of manufacturers outhere and yes thats irrealistic in your part.

So my friend wich is a better manufacturer ferrarri or tony junkyard? I know I know you have to try out and check all cars first

You have to bear in mind as well, that GW's target is... well it's the kids.

We who have been around the block a few times - yeah, we can fix that in 20 minutes with a bit of GS, a cup of steaming cocoa and our carpet slippers.

Kids with no patience or sculpting / modelling skills built up (remember when we were young?) simply won't be able to smoothly fix those bubbled lower surfaces, and will wonder why the hell their model looks so naff compared to what's in White Dwarf, paintwork notwithstanding.

So if the target market are likely to be the most disappointed, you have to ask what the hell's going onl.

Having been to warhammer world today and trawled the finecasts, roughly half that I looked through had significant bubbles or miss casts.

Been a GW fan for 20 years, have thousands of pounds of their product, but if they really don't improve their QA.... Very disappointed...

Druidic wrote:Having been to warhammer world today and trawled the finecasts, roughly half that I looked through had significant bubbles or miss casts.

Been a GW fan for 20 years, have thousands of pounds of their product, but if they really don't improve their QA.... Very disappointed...

Im with you there, long time collector very disappointed with this... Since you report the problem within the heart of all things GW ( warhammer world) we can expect that worldwide I guess

I can't believe I joined just to chime in on this brouhaha, but...

This whole debacle upsets me primarily, I think, because I actually got pretty excited about it before the unveiling. I've purchased resin products before and they invariably contain substantial defects, some workable and some no so much.

I thought this stuff was going to be different, mainly due to GW's outlandish hype.

To see these models, even in the positive reviews, have such obvious defects is frustrating. Many of them have the same voids and nubbins and warps and cake icing texture as any run-of-the-mill resin hobby item of the last twenty years. For the first time I feel like GW didn't just overstate the product; I feel like they lied about it. This isn't some leap forward in modelling. It's just resin, albeit softer/nontoxic/lighter/whatever. Those benefits pale, for me, compared to the defects thus seen. These figs have the same inconsistencies and deformities as every other resin product out there. So the detail is super sharp? Resin minis have always had sharp detail, if you can look past the casting damage.

I understand the stuff is great for conversions and for some that is a huge selling point. Some things, like the weight of the substance, the ease of modification, and its porosity to paint are going to be boons to certain gamers/modelers; it all depends on whether the pros and cons add up, for you, to a worthy purchase at the price.

I'm a decent modeller, but I'm not gonna greenstuff my Exalted Hero a new foot. I like to convert but my conversions these days are not that elaborate and the abundance of plastic parts makes things easier anyway. (I also think I sowed my conversion oats during the metal days of the early 90's; I have the scars to prove it.) Some here are defending the figures as acceptable resin models with reasonable resin flaws. Again, this is a personal judgement call as to whether the product is worth the price.

I've been lavishing money on GW since 1987 and still do. Like a good sucker I spent about $800 at the Warstore last week before the price rise (about three scout squads worth for you Australian gamers). Money is not an obstacle when it comes to getting good figures. In college during the mid-90's (when I had basically no income) I gladly spent $6 on a metal terminator. Now, when I have a good professional income, these prices seem discordant with the quality of resin models on offer.

For whatever business reason, GW released these knowing they are not of the hyperbolic quality stated, hence their convenient little FAQ on how to deal with the defects right before release. "Sometimes you will see small bubbles on the surface of Citadel Finecast models." Small bubbles don't bother me, GW, but the bite out of the end of a scabbard and a missing heel or two kinda make me reconsider my online purchase. Also, the blatant attempt to hide evidence of bad casts after the fact is poor form. Anyone notice they photoshopped the website pic of the resin Emperor's Champ to add in the point of the crux that was missing? Sad.

Navarro - I think we have reached a classic point in most disagreements where smugness and sarcasm have crept in unbidden.

I'm happy to accept that we disagree on opinion, but what you are still describing is opinion as far as I'm concerned.

I own a couple of McVey resins too, which indeed are nice - but they still have the same problems all resin models have. My Lt Kara Black had a section of the foot and forearm missing and bubbles on all parts, the ammo belt was warped and needed serious re-working - I'm not pissing and moaning about it because I can accept that.

Again, for one last time (because I don't have time to keep repeating this ) the good casts of the finecast range - i.e. those which have come out as intended, I believe are of equal quality to the McVey range etc.

The issue is obviously the QA, as I've repeated a number of times and which you seem to agree. But I don't see how you can tell me that the Finecast DE Archon which I hold in my hand, which has at the very least the same quality as the McVey sculpts I own, is somehow inferior in quality?

Perhaps it's the way your post reads, but you seem to have started to get quite snide and make points in a somewhat derogatory manner. Unecessary,very wrong and poor form.

(Also, the snide point about Ferrarri - do you know much about the in's and out's of the quality of Ferrarri's products or their failure rate compared to, say Skoda? Ironic that your counter point used brand as a measure of quality no?)

Vandil wrote:

puma713 wrote:

TBD wrote:
(I still wouldn't buy anything unseen though)

This makes me wonder about how the online market will be affected.

Some Chinese recasters wet dream just came true! I've gotten a few off ebay that are honestly hard to tell aren't legit.

Well actually it will be easy to spot the knockoffs, they will be the ones without the bubbles.

Allow me to give an example.

4 tau etherals on display, all 4 were obviously cast differently, different mold lines, etc, but 3 of the 4 all had the exact same bubble right on the front of the model taking out part of the robe. 1 I would have considered buying...... The other 3 I would have returned, even though I would be more then comfortable with resculpting, I'm just not going to pay a premium for stuff I have to rework!

Just out of curiosity:

All those miniatures that get sent back, do they get melted down again or are they destroyed and lost forever?

Another thing I am curious to know: can these bubbles be prevented in any kind of way? And if yes, how? What are they doing wrong right now? Is it fundamental or because they are rushing things?

Maybe the people with casting experience posting in this thread know (probably).

I think the reported numbers of miscasts likely stems largely from a rush to fulfill such large quantities for release day.

Some of the models with a higher rates of miscasts probably need the moulds refined to ensure a correct flow of resin and venting in the right areas.

I expect much of this will be worked out in the coming months and QA will likely improve too.

CMDante wrote:Navarro - I think we have reached a classic point in most disagreements where smugness and sarcasm have crept in unbidden.

I'm happy to accept that we disagree on opinion, but what you are still describing is opinion as far as I'm concerned.

I own a couple of McVey resins too, which indeed are nice - but they still have the same problems all resin models have. My Lt Kara Black had a section of the foot and forearm missing and bubbles on all parts, the ammo belt was warped and needed serious re-working - I'm not pissing and moaning about it because I can accept that.

Again, for one last time (because I don't have time to keep repeating this ) the good casts of the finecast range - i.e. those which have come out as intended, I believe are of equal quality to the McVey range etc.

The issue is obviously the QA, as I've repeated a number of times and which you seem to agree. But I don't see how you can tell me that the Finecast DE Archon which I hold in my hand, which has at the very least the same quality as the McVey sculpts I own, is somehow inferior in quality?

Perhaps it's the way your post reads, but you seem to have started to get quite snide and make points in a somewhat derogatory manner. Unecessary,very wrong and poor form.

(Also, the snide point about Ferrarri - do you know much about the in's and out's of the quality of Ferrarri's products or their failure rate compared to, say Skoda? Ironic that your counter point used brand as a measure of quality no?)

Mate if your reading anything close to "quite snide and make points in a somewhat derogatory manner. Unecessary,very wrong and poor form." I think we really better stop right here and before we start any other relaxed chat here or any other place let me just say - I'm really sorry and never crossed my mind to put you down in any way or form... Its not really my style and philosophy and I hope you accept them. Writing in a foreign language is not that easy for me so I always try to be polite and positive with who I engage.
Lets us both grab some clayshappers and sculpt something nice then.

You guys should just kiss and make up

Shut up you.. you... gorilla

CMDante wrote:Navarro - I think we have reached a classic point in most disagreements where smugness and sarcasm have crept in unbidden.

I'm happy to accept that we disagree on opinion, but what you are still describing is opinion as far as I'm concerned.

I own a couple of McVey resins too, which indeed are nice - but they still have the same problems all resin models have. My Lt Kara Black had a section of the foot and forearm missing and bubbles on all parts, the ammo belt was warped and needed serious re-working - I'm not pissing and moaning about it because I can accept that.

...

I find it very difficult to believe what you say.

I have four of the Studio McVey sculpts including the Carnosaur rider, and they are all perfect. As are the metal Studio McVey models I own. And the 100+ metal and resin models from a variety of companies (MERCS, Corvus Belli, Anteoniciti and Soda Pop) I spent this afternoon inventorying, barring some minor flash on a couple of the resin Game Character models from Elodie Mae.

I will not doubt you, though.

I can only say that you are an amazingly forgiving person to accept a special edition model costing £12 with such huge flaws. No wonder you don't have any issues with the GW resin stuff.

Aren't most of those McVey resin models limited edition though?

You'd think they spent more time & attention casting those while GW has much more quantity to handle, and did indeed do the rush job that is claimed by their staff. Not that this justifies the quality issues, but it would be the reason, hopefully.

All of them are. That's why it is so surprising that the user would receive a model with multiple defects.

They are cheaper than the mass market GW models.

CMDante wrote:I think the reported numbers of miscasts likely stems largely from a rush to fulfill such large quantities for release day.

Some of the models with a higher rates of miscasts probably need the moulds refined to ensure a correct flow of resin and venting in the right areas.

I expect much of this will be worked out in the coming months and QA will likely improve too.

[/Sarcasm] Perfectly acceptable for a company with over 25 years of experience in producing miniatures. [/Sarcasmoff]

spaceelf wrote:

Vandil wrote:

puma713 wrote:

TBD wrote:
(I still wouldn't buy anything unseen though)

This makes me wonder about how the online market will be affected.

Some Chinese recasters wet dream just came true! I've gotten a few off ebay that are honestly hard to tell aren't legit.

Well actually it will be easy to spot the knockoffs, they will be the ones without the bubbles.

and the ones you can afford.

Kilkrazy wrote:
I find it very difficult to believe what you say.

I have four of the Studio McVey sculpts including the Carnosaur rider, and they are all perfect. As are the metal Studio McVey models I own. And the 100+ metal and resin models from a variety of companies (MERCS, Corvus Belli, Anteoniciti and Soda Pop) I spent this afternoon inventorying, barring some minor flash on a couple of the resin Game Character models from Elodie Mae.

I will not doubt you, though.

I can only say that you are an amazingly forgiving person to accept a special edition model costing £12 with such huge flaws. No wonder you don't have any issues with the GW resin stuff.

Your right - i'm just a big ol' fabricator of truth's me!





I had forgotten actually how much work the gun needed until I dug it out just then for some quick picks (faults highlighted with red circles - some have been filled with putty as you can see).

The whole barrel needed replacing and the shield still isn't 100% after some serious trimming and reworking. Difficult to believe perhaps, but not impossible clearly.

I think the McVey figures are great and have absolute respect for them, but I'm just supporting my point with these pics, not being hyper-critical of them.

That's a big gun

Seems to me that a line GW might take on the issues with Finecast might be along the same one they take with Forgeworld. Made for the higher-level modeller, some extra work to be expected in an expert level kit, etc...

Personally I think that POV is a crock of gak given the costs involved, and an insulting one at that. However, they just might try it.

Can we hear from some more people who have had good casts, maybe more side by side pics of metal and resin minis? Personally I would dearly love to see a metal copy next to a resin copy, both primered, THEN picked for flaws. I think the pics people have been putting up of resin models with flaws circled are great in that it allows a more objective viewing of what's actually on the model.

TBD wrote:Another thing I am curious to know: can these bubbles be prevented in any kind of way? And if yes, how? What are they doing wrong right now? Is it fundamental or because they are rushing things?

Theoretically, yes, they're preventable, although it really depends on just what sort of process GW are using to cast them. If, as has been rumoured, these are being cast in a pressurised spin caster, my guess would be that they're either not using quite enough pressure, or are not spinning the moulds long enough. The way the resin is mixed and injected would also play a part... too much agitation adds more bubbles to the mix, which in turn take longer to remove.

It may also be fundamental to the resin mix, though... Some resins bubble more than others.


I would suspect that, as others have said, the worse flaws will be down to the product being rushed out. Which is in turn a side effect of trying to keep a product a secret up until 3 minutes before release... Who would have thought that might come back to bite them?

The pinhole airbubbles will probably always be there. While you'll get the occasional resin piece that doesn't have any, or that has them but in unobtrusive places so you don't notice, I think it's unrealistic to expect mass-produced resin miniatures to be completely free of them. The larger flaws... well, hopefully that will sort itself out when GW have caught up a little and aren't trying so hard to rush product out, and so can spend a little more time getting them right.

Not hyping them up as the best resin miniatures ever would certainly have helped... People have high expectations for resin, due to the fact that there is some absolutely brilliant stuff out there. So GW set themselves a bar that they were never going to get over. By contrast, the change from lead to white metal back in the '90s, which was billed simply as a necessary change for legal reasons with the handy side-effect of resulting in crisper-detailed miniatures, and which was accompanied by an up-front and honest announcement that the more expensive allow would require a price increase had none of this sort of drama. People complained a little about the price rise, and about the white metal being harder to work with than lead... and then noticed for themselves that the casts largely were better, and you didn't mash the model's face into an unrecognisable pulp when you dropped it, and we all got on with our lives.

insaniak wrote:

Not hyping them up as the best resin miniatures ever would certainly have helped... People have high expectations for resin, due to the fact that there is some absolutely brilliant stuff out there. So GW set themselves a bar that they were never going to get over. By contrast, the change from lead to white metal back in the '90s, which was billed simply as a necessary change for legal reasons with the handy side-effect of resulting in crisper-detailed miniatures, and which was accompanied by an up-front and honest announcement that the more expensive allow would require a price increase had none of this sort of drama. People complained a little about the price rise, and about the white metal being harder to work with than lead... and then noticed for themselves that the casts largely were better, and you didn't mash the model's face into an unrecognisable pulp when you dropped it, and we all got on with our lives.

Never really complained about metals or even plastics they were acceptable and in some cases quite nice and they do clash with these resin problems.
You say "" GW set themselves a bar that they were never going to get over..."
I think they have the money to reach and surpass that bar and I was hoping the new revolutionary material they were speaking was something along the lines of the best outhere... unfortunately all my hopes collapsed and my worst nightmare concerning finecast just materialized in front of my PC in the form of really nasty pictures and reports... FW problems just contaminated GW in the worst way possible.

Theres so much more problems on these that we are not thinking about, for example today we can compare with metals and we have a comparison point to know what parts are mising and what is miscasted etc but when new models will be created just for these we will be a bit clueless of how actually the model is suppose to look like and each model you get it will be like kinder egg surprise but without the chocolate and well casted plastic toy hehe...

CMDante wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
I find it very difficult to believe what you say.

I have four of the Studio McVey sculpts including the Carnosaur rider, and they are all perfect. As are the metal Studio McVey models I own. And the 100+ metal and resin models from a variety of companies (MERCS, Corvus Belli, Anteoniciti and Soda Pop) I spent this afternoon inventorying, barring some minor flash on a couple of the resin Game Character models from Elodie Mae.

I will not doubt you, though.

I can only say that you are an amazingly forgiving person to accept a special edition model costing £12 with such huge flaws. No wonder you don't have any issues with the GW resin stuff.

Your right - i'm just a big ol' fabricator of truth's me!





I had forgotten actually how much work the gun needed until I dug it out just then for some quick picks (faults highlighted with red circles - some have been filled with putty as you can see).

The whole barrel needed replacing and the shield still isn't 100% after some serious trimming and reworking. Difficult to believe perhaps, but not impossible clearly.

I think the McVey figures are great and have absolute respect for them, but I'm just supporting my point with these pics, not being hyper-critical of them.

How about a scan of your certificate of provenance?

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=&prodId=prod1160115a

Hive Tyrant: But the second picture is the metal tyrant, can't they be bothered painting a resin one?

Kilkrazy wrote:
How about a scan of your certificate of provenance?

Lol, I'd like to assume thats a joke but since I suspect you may be serious...



Incase you can't see, it was 306 of 750.

CMDante wrote:I find it strange that so many people seem to be claiming that small amounts of flash and the odd air bubble on otherwise perfect casts (yes there have been very bad casts too) is totally unacceptable as if GW have lampooned you with shoddy gak for your hard earned money.

This level of discontent is more to do with utterly unrealistic expectations, a general dislike for GW as a company an probably a lack of wider miniature experience.

Your just flat out wrong. Folks arent pointing out odd air bubbles or small amount of flash as bad casts and unacceptable. The level of miscast stuff posted shows your just being bias in your view. There are serious amounts of miscasts seen so far, beyond flash or even airbubbles.

Tyranid Horde wrote:Hive Tyrant: But the second picture is the metal tyrant,...

How do you tell?

insaniak wrote:

Tyranid Horde wrote:Hive Tyrant: But the second picture is the metal tyrant,...

How do you tell?

No missing parts.

carmachu wrote:

CMDante wrote:I find it strange that so many people seem to be claiming that small amounts of flash and the odd air bubble on otherwise perfect casts (yes there have been very bad casts too) is totally unacceptable as if GW have lampooned you with shoddy gak for your hard earned money.

This level of discontent is more to do with utterly unrealistic expectations, a general dislike for GW as a company an probably a lack of wider miniature experience.

Your just flat out wrong. Folks arent pointing out odd air bubbles or small amount of flash as bad casts and unacceptable. The level of miscast stuff posted shows your just being bias in your view. There are serious amounts of miscasts seen so far, beyond flash or even airbubbles.

Actually that's not what I'm contesting though as I've tried to make clear - I'm saying, when they come out as intended, the quality is high for resin figures, on a par with other resin lines. And there are people pointing out the odd air bubbles and flash as "unacceptable", not necessarily here, but elsewhere online.

Has anybody in the UK or rest of Europe contacted GW customer service for replacements? GW is closed in the US today because of a Holiday.

carmachu wrote:

CMDante wrote:I find it strange that so many people seem to be claiming that small amounts of flash and the odd air bubble on otherwise perfect casts (yes there have been very bad casts too) is totally unacceptable as if GW have lampooned you with shoddy gak for your hard earned money.

This level of discontent is more to do with utterly unrealistic expectations, a general dislike for GW as a company an probably a lack of wider miniature experience.

Your just flat out wrong. Folks arent pointing out odd air bubbles or small amount of flash as bad casts and unacceptable. The level of miscast stuff posted shows your just being bias in your view. There are serious amounts of miscasts seen so far, beyond flash or even airbubbles.

It could be said as well that some of the "reviews" are biased as well. When I see a review titled "Failcost review" I find it hard to believe the poster did not go into the review with a bias against GW or the product, as it seems alot of people are focusing their anger at a number of GW policy changes and price increases at the Finecast range. Additionally, I think that the number of models shown are not necessarily indicative of the range as a whole. Most people don't leave feedback or write reviews for models they are happy with.

Having said all that, I will most certainly be purchasing any Finecast models at my FLGS rather than online, so I can inspect them beforehand, but I did this for metal models as well, so it's not a huge change for me personally.

In the end, even if there is a larger quality control issue, it's not like customers are left with no recourse. GW replaces defective models without question. So while some folks may be out some time and have to deal with the slight frustration of a miscast model, they can get a replacement quite easily.

For me, the weight, prep time and susceptibility to chipping inherent in metal models are a bigger issue than a potential miscast with a resin model. Although, having purchased a large number of FW models, resin prep is not a huge issue for me. I can understand how less experienced customers may be a little shocked to see a few places that need touching up if they haven't had previous experience with resin models.

CMDante wrote:I'm saying, when they come out as intended, the quality is high for resin figures

Can't argue with that. The question now is how long will it take for the majority of models to come out "as intended" as opposed to "as they actually are."

Stella Cadente wrote:

spaceelf wrote:

Vandil wrote:

puma713 wrote:

TBD wrote:
(I still wouldn't buy anything unseen though)

This makes me wonder about how the online market will be affected.

Some Chinese recasters wet dream just came true! I've gotten a few off ebay that are honestly hard to tell aren't legit.

Well actually it will be easy to spot the knockoffs, they will be the ones without the bubbles.

and the ones you can afford.

Sad but true: Chinese resin recasts of metal miniatures would have no quality issues like that AND be cheaper.

Cadaver wrote:

carmachu wrote:

CMDante wrote:I find it strange that so many people seem to be claiming that small amounts of flash and the odd air bubble on otherwise perfect casts (yes there have been very bad casts too) is totally unacceptable as if GW have lampooned you with shoddy gak for your hard earned money.

This level of discontent is more to do with utterly unrealistic expectations, a general dislike for GW as a company an probably a lack of wider miniature experience.

Your just flat out wrong. Folks arent pointing out odd air bubbles or small amount of flash as bad casts and unacceptable. The level of miscast stuff posted shows your just being bias in your view. There are serious amounts of miscasts seen so far, beyond flash or even airbubbles.

It could be said as well that some of the "reviews" are biased as well. When I see a review titled "Failcost review" I find it hard to believe the poster did not go into the review with a bias against GW or the product, as it seems alot of people are focusing their anger at a number of GW policy changes and price increases at the Finecast range. Additionally, I think that the number of models shown are not necessarily indicative of the range as a whole. Most people don't leave feedback or write reviews for models they are happy with.

Having said all that, I will most certainly be purchasing any Finecast models at my FLGS rather than online, so I can inspect them beforehand, but I did this for metal models as well, so it's not a huge change for me personally.

In the end, even if there is a larger quality control issue, it's not like customers are left with no recourse. GW replaces defective models without question. So while some folks may be out some time and have to deal with the slight frustration of a miscast model, they can get a replacement quite easily.

For me, the weight, prep time and susceptibility to chipping inherent in metal models are a bigger issue than a potential miscast with a resin model. Although, having purchased a large number of FW models, resin prep is not a huge issue for me. I can understand how less experienced customers may be a little shocked to see a few places that need touching up if they haven't had previous experience with resin models.

I don't see it that way cadaver... I don't give much credits on the written reviews when they have crystal clear pictures next to them but yes bias goes both ways... but when I see everywhere pictures from people that got tons of finecasts ( I don't assume they are nothing but fans of GW models)... when I see pictures on the official GW site showing some of problems I surely don't see them has independent reviewers and expect they cherry picked the miniature... if those were the cherry's ouch.

Call me naive but I bet with you if these casts were par with the best in the market people would buy these and understand the prices increases... I have a hard time to believe all folks outhere got a hidden agenda and are reporting these finecasts just to blemish GW.

As for replacing faulty product it may be easier for folks who have GW in their countries, many don't and I surely don't and rely on online shopping... the fact its a faulty product gives me much more problems and its not that easy to replace the thing.

And finally I have some experience with resins it goes back some decades and the old fart in me that seen a bit of what's outhere can tell you if you consider FW cast a good comparative example to justify your experience with resins and that Finecast its expectable I can tell you that you probably picked one of the worst casters in the market... Im not new to these things and yes finecasts did really surprised me.

CMDante wrote:
Actually that's not what I'm contesting though as I've tried to make clear - I'm saying, when they come out as intended, the quality is high for resin figures, on a par with other resin lines. And there are people pointing out the odd air bubbles and flash as "unacceptable", not necessarily here, but elsewhere online.

Your assuming they will come out as intended, something other what we're seeing. Thats to be proven, not assumed.

Forgeworld resin for example, has bad problems too. Most other resin lines are much better then either finecast or forgeworld.

Raptor wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Tyranid Horde wrote:Hive Tyrant: But the second picture is the metal tyrant,...

How do you tell?

No missing parts.

Fair point

Cadaver wrote:

It could be said as well that some of the "reviews" are biased as well. When I see a review titled "Failcost review" I find it hard to believe the poster did not go into the review with a bias against GW or the product, as it seems alot of people are focusing their anger at a number of GW policy changes and price increases at the Finecast range. Additionally, I think that the number of models shown are not necessarily indicative of the range as a whole. Most people don't leave feedback or write reviews for models they are happy with.

Ah, the old "discredit the other side trick" your doing There. Pointing out flaws of models isnt bias. Making excuses that your doing, is. You make assumptions that have no basis in reality, but in your expectations and world view.

Finecast was sold as revolutionary, as a step up from metal. So far, its not. There is not a bit of doubt of that, currently. If, and thats a big if, GW can get their act together and produce without the miscasts, maybe it will be. Your assuming that its not indicative, but various reports are of folks at FLGS and GW stores having send back multiple blisters of the model blisters.

But that all runs with YOUR point of views, not the current facts presented. More then a few have reported happy, including the orginial one was a good review, despite flaws.

From the reviews that I've read I'm extremely dissapointed in what culd have beena step up in model quality. Many people have went through the blisters for "the best of the bunch" and still came out with very bad flaws many minor, but many of them major such as missing detail. Even if in the future I was tempted by a GW model this in itself would put me off.

mechanicalhorizon over at Warseer found this nice pic:

Bubblecast would certainly be a more suitable name at the moment

I did not have any big problems on my two IG models I bought.
The biggest problem was the aiming sight on Yarrick.



And still that is something that is easily fixed with some greenstuff and a sculpting tool.
Anyhow, although there are some start up problems for GW, I still think they handled it quite nice.
Somebody else opened a box which was a miscast. And got a new one immediately.
Got nothing to complain so far, except that the models are so nice they hurt my eyes. (You can count the teeth of Yarrick! What the hell!)

And I really really liked how it glues together. Dry fit, super glue, push.. and done.. 1 second later, just.. done.. What a relieve from metals that is..
I love resin so far.

I still can't understand:

Why would Yarrick lose his original Ork powerfist, and then replace it WITH ANOTHER ORK POWERFIST?

Raptor wrote:I still can't understand:

Why would Yarrick lose his original Ork powerfist, and then replace it WITH ANOTHER ORK POWERFIST?

Power klaws krump em better than powerfists.

Seeing that Yarrick really makes me hope GW gets their act together and makes these things of a consistently good quality at some point. Certain aspects of the resin models make me really want them (even at the prison black market prices). The weight, I think, would still annoy me, however. But if they get the quality of these things up so that you could buy a box set without fear, I'd be all over those future Finecast miniatures like, well, like bubbles on a current Finecast miniature.

Anyone done any heat testing or paint testing on the sprues etc? Maybe a realistic 120° to simulate being in a car? Bending a painted piece or even trying to strip paint. Using sprues obviously as the cost of the model is too great to risk.

Quick question: for the new Finecast blisters, how do you open it such that you can return it? I basically had to destroy mine to get it open, and didn't think I could return it after...

I probably wouldn't have anyway, but the one part that I couldn't see well from the back (the shield for the Black Orc Big Boss) was cast somewhat subpar, imho, and if I hadn't mauled the blister pack I might have considered it...

Definitely not a fan :-/. I think Finecast is a nice idea for the largest of metal models, but as for the smaller ones, I'll probably only get what I need down the line and no more...

You shouldn't have to have the packaging to return it, RiTides. You could likely just show up and hand them the mangled blister pack and hand it to them with no issues.

Maybe some weird glances.

insaniak wrote:

Not hyping them up as the best resin miniatures ever would certainly have helped... People have high expectations for resin, due to the fact that there is some absolutely brilliant stuff out there. So GW set themselves a bar that they were never going to get over. By contrast, the change from lead to white metal back in the '90s, which was billed simply as a necessary change for legal reasons with the handy side-effect of resulting in crisper-detailed miniatures, and which was accompanied by an up-front and honest announcement that the more expensive allow would require a price increase had none of this sort of drama. People complained a little about the price rise, and about the white metal being harder to work with than lead... and then noticed for themselves that the casts largely were better, and you didn't mash the model's face into an unrecognisable pulp when you dropped it, and we all got on with our lives.

Also they sold off their remaining stock of lead figures at a 20% discount too, instead of mysteriously removing them from shelves a month or 2 before. I was just starting up at the time, amd managed to sweet-talk my dad into getting me a unit of chaos terminators AND a chaos Dread because of the sale. Happy times....

I miss the good old days :(

Seeing as my only army is Necrons, with no intentions on picking up another army, I'm a little worried and relieved about the Finecast. I'm truly worried about Necrons in the sense of people scouring the sets for "the best looking model". That means that I need to be first to get the best out of the bunch, or be stuck with what has been equivocated as "Failcast". Having had a majority of my army being plastic (the only metal models I use in a game less than 2500 points is a lord or two and/or a nightbringer/deciever), I've gotten use to moving the pieces around, but I like metal because of the weight. It makes my units seem more important, almost FEEL important.

On the other hand, I am relieved for Finecast. For one, my models seem like they will be less adept to breaking, and the metal models I have don't like to glue together, so being told they glue easily is great. Also, I get to learn from everyone's mistakes, such as heating them up, how to clean them, to look for the best model when it arrives. Another thing I have going for me is that GW hopefully has not yet made the majority, if any of the models. If they haven't, they can already fix the common mistakes and the Necron's will come out as "intended". All in all, what I'm trying to say is GW messed up, sure, but they will hopefully improve. Sure Matt Ward is having his way with the Necron Codex, but I hope the models themselves are improved in quality by that time. I'm not making fun of people who have already bought the products and are screwed, I am saying that its because they have such a feedback, they can hopefully do a good job of improving. Or maybe this will fall to deaf ears, like lowering prices and the likes.

Ok i am kinda new here, but i have one questions.

After seeing how bad some of these bubbles are and say the store I got them from will not let me return or exchange them what am I supposed to do to fix if? I have very little experience with green stuff and many of the problems i have seen, you need some experience and skill to fix. And I know i am not the only one. What is the 12 or 15 year old supposed to do, that just got into the game. and knows nothing about risen going to do????

Doonan wrote:After seeing how bad some of these bubbles are and say the store I got them from will not let me return or exchange them what am I supposed to do to fix if?

Contact the appropriate fair trading authority in your country/state/whatever and lodge a complaint.

Although in the US, if you've bought from an independant, contacting GW directly would be an intermediate step.

There is no reason any store should refuse to accept a return for a sub-standard product. However, be familiar with the store's return policy, keep your receipts and your packaging. For internet stores be sure to do all of the above as their policies will vary vastly from brick and mortar stores and even between different internet sellers.

I went down to my FLGS about a half hour ago and had a look through the finecast reminants they had on the shelves along with a couple of boxes they had open (specifically hive tyrant and a cursory glance at canus)

I couldnt see any major issues, a couple of bubbles here and there, and a few notched miscasts (such as a notch out of a ribon on a shadowseer) but nothing that i would consider show stopping.

The tyrant was mostly still on the sprue, and sure, could have been the one great set they had, but the parts that were loose fit together far better than the metal mold, there were a couple of points that wernt as sharp as they normally are, but no voids or anything.

I also had a close look at an Autarch and saw no voids at all or miscast wings, so it looks like they had a good one.

No pics, but i'm a little more releaved that the ones i've got coming might not be complete failcasts.

NAVARRO wrote:

Cadaver wrote:
It could be said as well that some of the "reviews" are biased as well. When I see a review titled "Failcost review" I find it hard to believe the poster did not go into the review with a bias against GW or the product, as it seems alot of people are focusing their anger at a number of GW policy changes and price increases at the Finecast range. Additionally, I think that the number of models shown are not necessarily indicative of the range as a whole. Most people don't leave feedback or write reviews for models they are happy with.

Having said all that, I will most certainly be purchasing any Finecast models at my FLGS rather than online, so I can inspect them beforehand, but I did this for metal models as well, so it's not a huge change for me personally.

In the end, even if there is a larger quality control issue, it's not like customers are left with no recourse. GW replaces defective models without question. So while some folks may be out some time and have to deal with the slight frustration of a miscast model, they can get a replacement quite easily.

For me, the weight, prep time and susceptibility to chipping inherent in metal models are a bigger issue than a potential miscast with a resin model. Although, having purchased a large number of FW models, resin prep is not a huge issue for me. I can understand how less experienced customers may be a little shocked to see a few places that need touching up if they haven't had previous experience with resin models.

I don't see it that way cadaver... I don't give much credits on the written reviews when they have crystal clear pictures next to them but yes bias goes both ways... but when I see everywhere pictures from people that got tons of finecasts ( I don't assume they are nothing but fans of GW models)... when I see pictures on the official GW site showing some of problems I surely don't see them has independent reviewers and expect they cherry picked the miniature... if those were the cherry's ouch.

Call me naive but I bet with you if these casts were par with the best in the market people would buy these and understand the prices increases... I have a hard time to believe all folks outhere got a hidden agenda and are reporting these finecasts just to blemish GW.

As for replacing faulty product it may be easier for folks who have GW in their countries, many don't and I surely don't and rely on online shopping... the fact its a faulty product gives me much more problems and its not that easy to replace the thing.

And finally I have some experience with resins it goes back some decades and the old fart in me that seen a bit of what's outhere can tell you if you consider FW cast a good comparative example to justify your experience with resins and that Finecast its expectable I can tell you that you probably picked one of the worst casters in the market... Im not new to these things and yes finecasts did really surprised me.

I guess my point is the horrible miscasts seem rare, but the instances of air bubbles and minor issues are more common, and I think if we were able to compare the problem models to the good ones over a very large number of models, the percentage of bad models would be minimal. I'm not saying people have a hidden agenda by posted reviews, but I do think their may be some bias in some of the reviews where it seemed like they were blowing minor defects, which I've seen on plenty of metal models, way out of proportion.

I honestly don't know if FW is a good comparison to Finecast, as I haven't had a chance to check out Finecast models in person. I don't think any issues would be out of my ability to fix, however, and that was really my only point in drawing that comparison. I'm sure there are better casters, in fact, seeing Studio McVey's offerings, I know there are. My use for non-GW products is limited, however. I would love to get some Studio McVey miniatures at some point, I would just really like to see a larger offering, or at least miniatures that would be of use for Necromunda, as that's the only game I currently play.

I think we'll get a better overall idea of Finecast quality as time progresses. I certainly am not trying to make excuses for GW, and if their product is sub-par I'm sure it will be addressed by them with better quality control. I just hope Ogryns get the Finecast treatment soon, as those are models I've wanted to get for awhile, and I want to get some firsthand experience so I can have an informed opinion.

Was at my FLGS today also for a tourny and saw a guy bring back a Logan Grimnar that was literally missing a face from air bubbles. If they were on the armor or something, that'd be fine with me on a personal level if I have a fat stash of greenstuff laying around (which I do, but many do not). However, if I had received the model this guy did, I'd have been pissed. He paid 22.25 +tax for that model and then went home to build and paint it only to have to come back and try to get another (which my FLGS did not have in stock).

Seems like most of the air bubbles can be minor, but certainly not all, this was pretty bad and I can't blame the guy for being upset with the amount of time it took out of his day to straighten this out.

The owner of my FLGS is honestly stressed out with his orders because he has no way to know what shape his orders will be in when they arrive and how his customers will react if they have issues. Some people have been pretty gracious, others have been off the rails pissed.

It's already taking a toll on his business because he can't just make a quick buck on a sale, he's got to sort all this out constantly. Over the past few days he's dealt with several returns, at least one customer told him they'd be buying older metal on eBay, which will cost him at least some profit in the long run. Other customers aren't sure what they're plans are as many of them aren't talented miniature sculptors/hobbyists (some have never used greenstuff), they're just casual gamers that rely on things being relatively straightforward to get them from the blister to the tabletop.

Do I see this shutting down the FLGS I game at? No. I don't. Do I see it cutting into the owner's already dismal (due to economical issues out of his control) profits? Yes, I do. That, in turn, could potentially impact his ability to run events with prizes, stay open later, make larger orders for better stock, etc. He does a lot of GW sales, and thankfully most things are now plastics, but he does definitely have this issue to contend with nowadays, and it's not making his life any easier. I feel for the guy.

Personally, I opened 4 blisters for him from his order to check quality, and 2 of them were bad enough that nobody would have bought them, the other 2 were ok, with only a couple small air bubbles, one missing some fingers.

Overall, I would say GW shouldn't have hyped this. Sure, announce it, tell people it's ultimately necesssary and will hopefully get better with time, but don't pimp the finecast line as the premier hobbyists dream. They really tried to make this out to be the ultimate line of minis, and the quality just isn't there to back that up. The truth is in your FLGS, go down and see for yourself. Deny it if you will, that's your right, but today I saw for myself just how mediocre finecast is.

On a related note: I once got a DKoK officer with a glop of resin for a face (opposite of the issue above), and FW was awesome at replacing it (the whole unit!) nearly overnight, but I can't see GW staying profitable if they are busy handing out masses of free product for all of the widespread airbubbles, etc. They do need to get on this, and step up their QA.

EDIT: typos

CMDante wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
How about a scan of your certificate of provenance?

Lol, I'd like to assume thats a joke but since I suspect you may be serious...



Incase you can't see, it was 306 of 750.

Why on Earth did you accept it?

If you're happy with parts in that bad condition it doesn't say much for accepting Finecast.

Kilkrazy wrote:

CMDante wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
How about a scan of your certificate of provenance?

Lol, I'd like to assume thats a joke but since I suspect you may be serious...



Incase you can't see, it was 306 of 750.

Why on Earth did you accept it?

If you're happy with parts in that bad condition it doesn't say much for accepting Finecast.

I received a broken Ruby. I informed Maelstrom that their packing was insufficient and this high-detail, delicate cast required better packaging.

They sent me out another.

Dont know what I will do with the broken one, though I suspect it will fill the stocking of a friend with better skills in repairing and working with resin sculpts.

Got back from Florida today and checked out the fine casts I have left on the shelves from the weekend. Besides some flash on a sprue, and a bubble on chin. I haven't been able to find very many of our fine cast stuff with any errors, I did hear one box of incubi that we had in had a few bubbles on the helmet, but so far, no other horror stories. Looking forward to picking up a lord commissar and painting him up.

Well I tried my best but I couldn't get very good comparison pics. I didn't have time to assemble and prime them so this will probably help no one.


Sprue shots. The model on the bottom left is the same body as the one on the bottom right, and you can see the spikes on his greaves are kinda messed up. The one on the right came out great, the one on the left had voids instead of fully-formed spikes (I didn't notice this lastnight when checking the models, got kind of irritated since that means I either shave the nubs off or try to resculpt the spikes myself). One of the swords was loose when I opened the box.


Stupid pic came out kinda blurry...


Close up of one of the bodies. I couldn't get a good enough pic with the two side by side so if someone wants to splice these two images together then be my guest.


Although it came out blurry too so it might not be worth bothering with that...god damn it I suck at taking pictures.


Terrible photos, why did I even bother.

Combine my horrible photography with the fact that the incubi are kind of a new mold anyway and it may be hard to tell if one is really better than the other. In my personal opinion I kinda liked the detail of the Finecast models, but I had a couple problems with spikes not forming, or the ends of spikes (like on that elbow on the sword arm and the horn on one of the helmets) chipping off, and the material just feels brittle as crap when holding it in your hand. I started to attempt the "stress test" that they performed with Skulltaker's sword on the website, and I didn't get very far since I think the blade was about to break. It felt awful wobbly anyway so I left it alone.

Thank you for posting these. Looks like all the horn tips are ok and there is nothing that is horribly misscast. too bad about the small spikes. I wonder if this will just be common on all the Dark Eldar figures.

I picked up a Hive Guard, and I am pleasantly surprised with it. No bubbles, no miscasts, everything fist together perfectly. Lots of tiny air-hole bits to trim, but that's okay. The price felt like being bent over a stump, but then again, nobody forced me to buy it. Now I really wonder how long Forge World has until their lines are absorbed by Citadel.

thebadabwar wrote:Looks like all the horn tips are ok and there is nothing that is horribly misscast.

It's actually that one on the bottom left, the left horn on the helmet is just a little shorter than the right one because of a tiny chip on the end. But no, I didn't get anything too horrible (although I didn't notice that sword arm had a chipped elbow spike on it before taking pictures...wonder what else I've missed). If they do manage to improve the casting quality then I might actually be a fan of Finecast, although the prices are still stupid and I'm going to be buying less incubi than I planned to. I originally wanted four boxes, may have to live with two instead.

I still can't get over that, the incubi were my favorite kit, a rare occurrence with GW where you actually kinda feel like you get your money's worth. And then they fethed that up and raised the price by about $6. Nothing is sacred.

Deefect wrote:(You can count the teeth of Yarrick! What the hell!)

err, you could on the metal one, hell I could on the 3 I did before, and its not many teeth to count really.

Was in the queue in Warhammer World on Sunday and three customers in front of me were returning Finecast sets.

I felt quite sorry for the guy behind the counter. In fairness they were replacing ALL of them. Although they had run out of some models so the girl had to put it on order which kind of sucked.

Blue shirt said they've been having loads of problems with Finecast and hopefully getting it sorted ASAP.

Seriphis wrote:I went down to my FLGS about a half hour ago and had a look through the finecast reminants they had on the shelves along with a couple of boxes they had open (specifically hive tyrant and a cursory glance at canus)

I couldnt see any major issues, a couple of bubbles here and there, and a few notched miscasts (such as a notch out of a ribon on a shadowseer) but nothing that i would consider show stopping.

The tyrant was mostly still on the sprue, and sure, could have been the one great set they had, but the parts that were loose fit together far better than the metal mold, there were a couple of points that wernt as sharp as they normally are, but no voids or anything.

I also had a close look at an Autarch and saw no voids at all or miscast wings, so it looks like they had a good one.

No pics, but i'm a little more releaved that the ones i've got coming might not be complete failcasts.

Same here I look at abot 10 finecasts and only one had a bubble it was on a harlequin shadowseer and it was very small. Alll others look good some flash but not bad. I think all the bad press is coming from PP or something and my LFG did not raise it prices I guess more bad press from some were.

army310 wrote: I think all the bad press is coming from PP or something and my LFG did not raise it prices I guess more bad press from some were.

yeah no bad press round here, not a single person has posted proof of defective models or complained about defective models, all the pictures have been of perfectly cast cleanly molded models of perfection and people singing praises...oh wait.

Personal opinion, just don't like having to re-work what is supposed to be a 'premium product'

It's genuinly beginning to upset me...

This is not about GW hate, this is just last straw kind of depression...

yeah no bad press round here, not a single person has posted proof of defective models or complained about defective models, all the pictures have been of perfectly cast cleanly molded models of perfection and people singing praises...oh wait.

There have been a couple of nightmare casts, i'll give you that, but its not all doom and gloom...

Its a new product range, if they hadnt of upsold finecast + released it at a time where they were doing some truely stupid things, would there be so much rage?

I dont agree with the recent changes in price, the decreases in information flow and the exorbinate prices we get charged in AU, but all that aside, i like what i've seen in person so far with the finecast stuff, keeping in mind that i might get a lemon, if it happens i'll deal with it, just like i deal with any other faulty product.

I think some perspective needs to be reached by some posters on here, internet rage is all well and good but at the end of the day trolling every positive post makes you look like an idiot.

just don't like having to re-work what is supposed to be a 'premium product'

This is my point in regards to the upselling, if they hadnt said it was the best in the world then there would be no where near the rage, they've created an expectation that will never be able to be met by most people...

maybe i've been disappointed too many times by shoddy work in AU that i apply very liberal amounts of salt to statements where they say "they're the best"





edited cause of a post in the time i posted mine.

gr1m_dan wrote:
Blue shirt said they've been having loads of problems with Finecast and hopefully getting it sorted ASAP.

A warhammer world blue shirt saying Finecast has been having lots of problems is kind of the confirmation of the reports we have been hearing around the net.
Glad GW is so generous replacing things but I think such big ratios of miscasts will be a problem to replace all and that the only way to sort this thing out is to find a better way to cast these things ( I dont know if this new material is prone to be recycled but if you cant melt it and reuse it again ouch!)... They need to find a way to cast these things well thats the only way to go IMO. For our sake I hope they manage to make this right.

Ebay metals will rise for sure and metals will be even more collectors items from now on.

army310 wrote:I think all the bad press is coming from PP or something and my LFG did not raise it prices I guess more bad press from some were.

You think Privateer Press have been actively posting in forums to disparage GW products in order to boost their own sales?

I don't. I really don't.

Also, the price hikes are a matter of record, if your FLGS didn't raise their prices then they're taking the hit for you. And good on them!

People need to remember: People who are totally satisfied won't post on the internet about it. You're only getting one side of the story, because the other side is totally content with their purchase.

I did earlier in the thread.

Mine were awesome! All four were spot on as far as I could tell so I'm guessing my local store must have got a decent batch.

Must admit though all the pictures that have been posted of late seriously puts me off buying the box sets or anything online. If I can't see the model I'm not going to buy it to save myself some hassle.

Thrax wrote:Overall, I would say GW shouldn't have hyped this.

That, or they should have hyped it, but then also actually delivered what they promised...

Cerebrium wrote:People need to remember: People who are totally satisfied won't post on the internet about it. You're only getting one side of the story, because the other side is totally content with their purchase.

How can you really say that for sure ( even here you see good reviews)... I see tons of good reviews on other products and companies, Heck I even make some articles reviews about good stuff good experiences good minis etc and so do plenty o people... One of the reasons people are vocal about something is when they are very satisfied or very unsatisfied about what they are reviewing the only silent ones are people not interested about something.

Cerebrium wrote:People need to remember: People who are totally satisfied won't post on the internet about it. You're only getting one side of the story, because the other side is totally content with their purchase.

Look at my post a few slots up. I had no problems at all with my purchase.

insaniak wrote:

Thrax wrote:Overall, I would say GW shouldn't have hyped this.

That, or they should have hyped it, but then also actually delivered what they promised...

Indeed. There is that scenario as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This whole finecast situation will certainly work to GW's benefit if it curbs the appeal of internet purchases.

army310 wrote:Same here I look at abot 10 finecasts and only one had a bubble it was on a harlequin shadowseer and it was very small. Alll others look good some flash but not bad. I think all the bad press is coming from PP or something and my LFG did not raise it prices I guess more bad press from some were.

Probably because the prices don't officially go up until June 1st.

Also, I'd like to know how this is all just "bad press" being spread by a rival company when all you have to do is visit the god-damned website and see it for yourself, as some things have quite obviously already gone up in price. My Dark Eldar codex was $29 in November, it's listed at $33 now. My metal incubi were $29.75 in November, this box of Finecast incubi cost me $35.50. Unless I'm so utterly stupid that I just imagined myself paying more money than I did before, I think it's pretty safe to assume you're wrong on this one and that there's no secret group of PP employees trolling forums just to spread bad rumors about GW...like they would need to do that in the first place, GW is pretty good at making a bad name for itself without help.

warpcrafter wrote:

Cerebrium wrote:People need to remember: People who are totally satisfied won't post on the internet about it. You're only getting one side of the story, because the other side is totally content with their purchase.

Look at my post a few slots up. I had no problems at all with my purchase.

Neither did I, really. I was actually surprised what I got was as good as it was, I fully expected the worst when I cracked the box open. I only had a couple of minor complaints about one model in the box not being a perfect cast.

I did, however, pass up a few other blisters I was interested in based on sketchy-looking casts, so I'm not exactly praising Finecast because I got one decent box of models.

Thrax wrote:This whole finecast situation will certainly work to GW's benefit if it curbs the appeal of internet purchases.

I'm not convinced of that. Direct only means that people like myself, who prefer to mail order, have to order from GW online. Net gain for them as they get full RRP. Now I'm less likely to order online, sure, but I'm not going to the shop to receive crappy service and for them not to have the miniature I want anyway. I'm just not going to buy the miniature. Net loss for them. I don't know if I'm representative of a large market share, but I think enough people are going to feel the same that this is going to hurt them more than help them.

Thrax wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Thrax wrote:Overall, I would say GW shouldn't have hyped this.

That, or they should have hyped it, but then also actually delivered what they promised...

Indeed. There is that scenario as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This whole finecast situation will certainly work to GW's benefit if it curbs the appeal of internet purchases.

As a businessman I am not convinced that making your product worse, so that people are not confident to buy it, is a good strategy.

I went to my local gw and went through 5 miscasts untill i decided to change to a plastic kit. every single sternguard sergeant model had i massive hole in his head, all of the vanguard were horrible miscasts but the ic were perfect. my guess is that gw relessed a whole stack of minis in a short space of time someust slipped under the radar. it seems every kit around australia had problems with the sternguard and vanguard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
still it is a step foward they will fix it

I picked up a Ghazghkull Thraka on Saturday, and I can't say there were any noticeable flaws. There was some flash to trim & mold lines to clear, but beyond that, nothing. My only complaint is regards the GW claim that Finecast is more resilient than metal, since I managed to snap his Bosspole (without, I thought, a lot of force being applied. And no I wasn't stress testing it, it was an accident...). On the plus side it did glue back on with no problems and is pretty sound now...

On the point of dodgy blisters (miscasts etc) from what I inspected at my local GW, I saw only 1, and Empereror's Champion who'd forgotten to pack his sword...

Overall I'm fairly positive about Finecast - I've never worked with resin, so I've still to learn how best to work with the stuff, but I'm liking it so far...

I'm not trying to be a fanboy/apologist etc here; I read the prelaunch reviews and was a little apprehensive when i went to GW, to the extent that I opened the box before I left the store. Just trying to be open minded and objective...

Tech Guard wrote:I went to my local gw and went through 5 miscasts untill i decided to change to a plastic kit. every single sternguard sergeant model had i massive hole in his head, all of the vanguard were horrible miscasts but the ic were perfect. my guess is that gw relessed a whole stack of minis in a short space of time someust slipped under the radar. it seems every kit around australia had problems with the sternguard and vanguard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
still it is a step foward they will fix it

lol, now that's loyalty. Things were so bad at your GW that you skipped buying Finecast at all, noting that this was apparently a problem all over Australia with big stacks of miscast minis, but then ended your post by saying this was still a "step forward" and that GW would fix it.

If GW has any integrity at all then I'm pretty confident they'll fix it, too. I just thought it sounded funny.

Archroy wrote: My only complaint is regards the GW claim that Finecast is more resilient than metal.

never believe GW's claims, the whole "dropped a dragon from 3 feet and it was fine" rubbish is obvious BS, it was placed gently on the floor, just like when they were trying to sell the large figure case for monsters and had it placed on a car then took a picture after they had gently put it on the floor afterwards, when in reality it would of been scratched and dented.

GW's number 1 selling tactic is to lie like its going out of fashion

I'm surprised there was no propaganda post on the GW site yesterday. Which makes me think that they had one prepared ("Our glorious product conquers all hearts, what was your first model?") but with the massive backlash decided to scrap it and instead keep it quiet.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Thrax wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Thrax wrote:Overall, I would say GW shouldn't have hyped this.

That, or they should have hyped it, but then also actually delivered what they promised...

Indeed. There is that scenario as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This whole finecast situation will certainly work to GW's benefit if it curbs the appeal of internet purchases.

As a businessman I am not convinced that making your product worse, so that people are not confident to buy it, is a good strategy.

I was alluding to the fact that GW seems to want to hassle the internet stores that carry their product. It's already taboo to list their stuff online or show pictures of it if you're an online vendor, and they've gone gak-crazy with the whole trade embargo issue - so I suspect they'll be pleased with more people buying the finecast in brick and mortar shops than online - that was the point I was trying to make. Although, you're correct, it doesn't make any business sense, but that's GW's modus operandi.

But I was impressed with the emperores champion model, had no trouble converting him into captain tycho, this would have been a nightmare in resin. but then again if you look at forge worlds resin gw casting is amazing, anybody who has put together an elysian army will know.

I know all too well.

Look to be brutaly honest the sternguard seargents looked as though they had been shot in the head with a bolt gun, way beyond saving. the vanguards feet looked like mutations. i think that they skiped the caulity check on models in non see through packeging but for the clams were very catious

I have a DKoK army and love the detail of the FW resin, but I absolutely loathe the lack of durability of it. Bayonettes and limbs snap at the lightest touch, and if you think you can take these in the car during summer, forget about it. Did have a couple issues with my Krieg (thinning on some of the longcoats, and some resin blobs), but overall very well cast, just brittle as hell.

The finecast stuff is...different.

EDIT: typo

yes well every game i play with my elysians i am repairing a brocken body part.

'Can't take it in your car in the summer' seems like grasping at straws to find something wrong with finecast. I mean, I'm sure it might be a problem. but its a problem I have with current plastic tanks as well - I've seen some tanks from other gamers which have literally exploded or turned nearly inside-out as the pent up air gets released. I myself have a hammerhead tank with erectile dysfunction - left in the car, the barrel went all flaccid and now points directly into the cockpit of the tank

Trasvi wrote:'Can't take it in your car in the summer' seems like grasping at straws to find something wrong with finecast. I mean, I'm sure it might be a problem. but its a problem I have with current plastic tanks as well - I've seen some tanks from other gamers which have literally exploded or turned nearly inside-out as the pent up air gets released. I myself have a hammerhead tank with erectile dysfunction - left in the car, the barrel went all flaccid and now points directly into the cockpit of the tank

Come on, Tau guys, ED is no reason to kill yourselves! They have drugs for that now!

Never had issue with plastic tanks, but did lose a squad of krieg that were in the part of the case that was sticking out of the shade in the parked car. I'm not 'grasping at straws' to find flaws with finecast, only stating my experience with a FULLY FW resin army that I personally own and can share my experiences with. Call that what you will.

army310 wrote:
I think all the bad press is coming from PP or something

Do you realize how stupid that sounds? I mean, really? PP had their response to finecast and other GW stupidity, faking problems isnt it.

BrookM wrote:I'm surprised there was no propaganda post on the GW site yesterday. Which makes me think that they had one prepared ("Our glorious product conquers all hearts, what was your first model?") but with the massive backlash decided to scrap it and instead keep it quiet.

It was a public holiday here yesterday - so there's always time for them to pontificate on the runaway success that is Finecast...

htj wrote:

Thrax wrote:This whole finecast situation will certainly work to GW's benefit if it curbs the appeal of internet purchases.

I'm not convinced of that. Direct only means that people like myself, who prefer to mail order, have to order from GW online. Net gain for them as they get full RRP. Now I'm less likely to order online, sure, but I'm not going to the shop to receive crappy service and for them not to have the miniature I want anyway. I'm just not going to buy the miniature. Net loss for them. I don't know if I'm representative of a large market share, but I think enough people are going to feel the same that this is going to hurt them more than help them.

I almost always online order what I don't get there I get off ebay or trade forums. Once upon a time I had an awesome game shop in town that carried loads of citadel products. The game shop is still there but it now sells mostly magic, yogio, warmachine, and D20 RPGs. The other shop in town is a historical military hobby shop and while they have 40k games held their the selection is none existent. That leaves GW Milwaukee which is a 2hr round trip @ $4 a gal 24mpg with my v8. ( So it's cheaper to ship an order anyway!)

If there is even a 10% chance I'm going to get a failcast instead of a finecast from GW direct mail order then I'm passing. I actually cancelled my tomb-kings pre-orders because I have no confidence I'll get a decent model and I'm not paying for return shipping on a defective product. I've spent $360+ at another mini manufacturer so far.

Archroy wrote:

BrookM wrote:I'm surprised there was no propaganda post on the GW site yesterday. Which makes me think that they had one prepared ("Our glorious product conquers all hearts, what was your first model?") but with the massive backlash decided to scrap it and instead keep it quiet.

It was a public holiday here yesterday - so there's always time for them to pontificate on the runaway success that is Finecast...

Aha, consider me corrected.

BrookM wrote:I'm surprised there was no propaganda post on the GW site yesterday. Which makes me think that they had one prepared ("Our glorious product conquers all hearts, what was your first model?") but with the massive backlash decided to scrap it and instead keep it quiet.

Public holiday notwithstanding, the GW Facebook team have been pretty busy toeing the party line. Lots of posts about pictures from 'such and such GW' with 'hordes of happy customers'. Basically giving the impression that Finecast has been flying off the shelves and a massive success.

As usual, there is a bit of a dichotomy with regards to GW - if one goes purely by what GW say then clearly Finecast has been a massive success. Obviously, some stories on Dakka and the like beg to differ. i suspect the truth is somewhere in between; I am sure GW stores have been busier than normal recently - but how successful the launch actually is, we wait to see.

Thrax wrote:The owner of my FLGS is honestly stressed out with his orders because he has no way to know what shape his orders will be in when they arrive and how his customers will react if they have issues. Some people have been pretty gracious, others have been off the rails pissed....

... I feel for the guy.

This deserves more attention. We can quibble about what percentage of Fincasts are flawed, but there is a big difference between how GW stores and our FLGS can handle them. At this point AFAIK, Fincast shippments to FLGS are limited (I believe Mikaila said something to this effect). Thus, it's likely that a FLGS will have to give a refund if a return comes back and they don't have the item in stock. The FLGS gives a refund and likely loses a sale that will go elsewhere rather than wait for a new shippment.

The GW store on the other hand likely has more access to stock and resupply. They're far more likely to be able to provide the customer with a replacement on-the-spot and keep the sale.

Really doesn't seem like a fair shake for the FLGS.

Eilif wrote:

Thrax wrote:The owner of my FLGS is honestly stressed out with his orders because he has no way to know what shape his orders will be in when they arrive and how his customers will react if they have issues. Some people have been pretty gracious, others have been off the rails pissed....

... I feel for the guy.

This deserves more attention. We can quibble about what percentage of Fincasts are flawed, but there is a big difference between how GW stores and our FLGS can handle them. At this point AFAIK, Fincast shippments to FLGS are limited (I believe Mikaila said something to this effect). Thus, it's likely that a FLGS will have to give a refund if a return comes back and they don't have the item in stock. The FLGS gives a refund and likely loses a sale that will go elsewhere rather than wait for a new shippment.

The GW store on the other hand likely has more access to stock and resupply. They're far more likely to be able to provide the customer with a replacement on-the-spot and keep the sale.

Really doesn't seem like a fair shake for the FLGS.

Good point. But unless they drop finecast I cant see how independent stores can fight that.

Well, now we know why the cost of plastic kits is going up, it's to cover the cost of replacing all the Failcast miscasts.

Just popped into my local GW and whilst the staff were distracted by the half term rabble, I scrutinised a fair few finecast blisters. Have to say I couldn't find much fault with the ones I saw, aside from a badly bent pistol on an Empire Captain. Eventually a store member came over and gave me an undercoated of Astorath to look over. I was reasonably impressed with how the model looked, although I accept that they would hardly choose a miscast model for display purposes.

I would consider myself one of those who would quite happily see Failcast um... fail after all the debacle of recent weeks, but my first impressions are regrettably positive (aside from the prices ).

EDIT - Still didn't buy any though. So to you GW

Flashman, if you are going to be positive and accepting, then you can just find another forum! This is a place for impossible to satisfy people to piss and moan to a bunch of other unappeasable and helpless people!

DaNewBoy wrote:Flashman, if you are going to be positive and accepting, then you can just find another forum! This is a place for impossible to satisfy people to piss and moan to a bunch of other unappeasable and helpless people!

Oh I know that, I've edited my post to a more appropriate tone

I went into my FLGS and had a look at some of the finecast stuff. All in all it looked pretty good, but i would have prefered if the boxes of finecsat still had some kind of window, as i am somewhat concerned about what might be inside.
I picked up the Emperors Champion, who apart from a bubble smaller than a pinprick (im very picky) on his shoulder-rim, was pretty good.
When i painted him up thought, it really showed how much better resin is than pewter. My other Emperor's Champion (pewter) was a lot less detailed and was harder to distiguish some of the lines.
All in all, finecast seems like a good idea, but i think that some of the stuff GW said was a bit off.

Eilif wrote:At this point AFAIK, Fincast shippments to FLGS are limited (I believe Mikaila said something to this effect).

I've also heard that FC shipments are limited to three and my FLGS didn't have more than three of anything that I noticed.

I picked up a Finecast Dante and was quite happy with the quality. Clean up on the resin is a snap, especially compared to all those small vent worms on metal models.



More in this dakka gallery

Asuron wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:My old LGS wasn't told anything about the 'Finecast' range from GW. All that happened was that he was finding that more and more items were "out of stock" when he was ordering from them and he started to think that they were blocking his orders for some reason (GW do pull the occasional stunt with their retailers).

Now he accepts that they were likely running down the metal stock for the change over. The GW rep didn't mention a thing about the resin stuff at all, the first he knew of the resin stuff was in the White Dwarf when delivered this week.

The hell? So much for GW keeping their own retailers in the loop.

They weren't the only ones
Miniwargaming said the same thing in their review of the models, they weren't told anything and it put alot of stress on them to get the orders in

What the hell has to be going through their brains, to not tell anybody about what they are doing so they can prepare for this
Instead it forces retailers to put a hole in their wallet for a while just to have stock to sell, because there was no way they could have been prepared for this
Even their own employees couldn't tell me what they were selling two days before, because apparentlly they hadn't been told!
I mean how are you going to assure a customer of anything, if noone knows anything?

Its like all the examples of how to not run a business, GW seem to exemplify

Talking again to my LGS he said that he's thinking about dropping the blisters from his shop. They are too expensive, they don't sell like the boxed stuff, and they are too easily stolen... they just aren't worth it. He sells lots more boxes than blisters and the kids who used to buy the stuff have stopped because of the cost (there are no lower cost items). He doesn't make much money on GW but it's good to be an official retailer and get yourself into the White Dwarf lists and it gets people into the shop in general. But GW sales are poor. I think he's quite frustrated by it.

Finecast first look by Kilkrazy

I went along to the London Oxford Street Plaza shop at lunchtime. Had a bit of a chat with one of the older guys there, who was assembling models from Finecast.

My impressions
Detail looks very clear and impressive. I believe this is partly due to lack of specular highlighting and will be less apparent once the models are painted.

I couldn’t find any models with big missing bits or obvious air bubbles. I didn’t look at very many. I did find some with very thin resin and/or small missing pieces, but nothing with huge chunks missing. There is also quite a lot of cleaning up to do because of all the vents, however the soft material should facilitate this.

Some filling with putty may be needed depending on the model. The Hive Tyrant on display had pretty big cracks in his carapace where the pieces didn’t join properly. Some of the other display models had clear offset mould halves which, to be fair, can happen on metal too. There was also some rough texture on some of the surfaces on the big winged demon.

The models are very light.

The material is less soft and bendy than I expected, which I’m quite glad about. I was worried the models were going to feel like children’s toys.

I didn’t try the experiment of bending a sword in two, but I did snap a tail off a Chaos steed when I picked it up.

Staff impressions
The shop guy said they had had up to 1/3 bad castings with some of the more complicated models. He thought this would improve as the manufacturing staff gained experience with the process. I agree – most manufacturing processes improve productivity by 20% in the first three months.

We will have to wait and see what this may mean for Finecast. A 20% improvement in a process which produces 33% bad castings could involve the failure rate settling at ¼.

That is the most complex models, however. The simpler ones like the smaller one and two piece models ought to do better. And hopefully masters created specifically for resin will make better moulds.

The man said GW have a good return/refund policy. (In the UK. Your local laws may differ.) He expected the whole metal range to get moved over to Finecast. This would be a benefit as it allowed them to stock more in the shop – presumably (my guess) because the amount of metal in the supply chain was too expensive.

He didn’t think Finecast was an interim step to going all-polystyrene.

Overall
My overall impressions were better than I had expected. I don’t think Finecast is a rocket ride to the moon, OTOH it isn’t an express elevator to hell. You’ll just have to be a bit careful checking models in case you need to return them.

The main thing that shocked me was the prices:

Zoanthrope = £15.50
Hive Tyrant = £36

I knew about this before I went in the shop and I still got a considerable “sticker shock” when I picked up the package.

So I’m afraid there will be no Finecast Hive Tyrant for me. I shall convert one of my secondhand eBay Carnifexes and save £20.

Can any resin experts help shed light on why so many miscast resin models also have those pink materials on them?

If i havnt remembered wrong , thats part of the molding?
what reasons would they have for falling apart for something so new?

1/3 of complex models are miscasts. Simpler models are better.

There is a moderate improvement over metal in terms of ease of assembly because Super Glue fixes parts very quickly and you don't have to pin.

As for pricing, I never bought a Hive Tyrant in metal because it was too heavy. I like the light weight and I could deal with the construction issues in the resin version. Even so it is too expensive.

Your mileage may vary, as they say.

LunaHound wrote:Can any resin experts help shed light on why so many miscast resin models also have those pink materials on them?

If i havnt remembered wrong , thats part of the molding?
what reasons would they have for falling apart for something so new?

GW say their models don't need washed unlike Forgeworld. Surely that means they're not using some sort of mould release which leads to easier tearing?
That's what I've heard anyway.

Thorgut wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Can any resin experts help shed light on why so many miscast resin models also have those pink materials on them?

If i havnt remembered wrong , thats part of the molding?
what reasons would they have for falling apart for something so new?

GW say their models don't need washed unlike Forgeworld. Surely that means they're not using some sort of mould release which leads to easier tearing?
That's what I've heard anyway.

If thats true, then i dont really understand.

Washing is not a big deal at all ( easier than removing the flash and filling bubbles )
so why not use release agents so the mold dont take abusive tearing?

Kilkrazy wrote:The main thing that shocked me was the prices:

Zoanthrope = £15.50
Hive Tyrant = £36

I knew about this before I went in the shop and I still got a considerable “sticker shock” when I picked up the package.

So I’m afraid there will be no Finecast Hive Tyrant for me. I shall convert one of my secondhand eBay Carnifexes and save £20.

This was my impression, too! They look OK, some work needed, but it's not a deal-breaker... however, the price does put some things out of range.

I just bought a metal carnosaur for the price reason... only saved $22 or so, but still- that's almost a box of hellions/reavers...

Kilkrazy wrote:1/3 of complex models are miscasts. Simpler models are better.

There is a moderate improvement over metal in terms of ease of assembly because Super Glue fixes parts very quickly and you don't have to pin.

As for pricing, I never bought a Hive Tyrant in metal because it was too heavy. I like the light weight and I could deal with the construction issues in the resin version. Even so it is too expensive.

Your mileage may vary, as they say.

Okidoki.
Just wondering something isnt tyrant a hybrid kit? some plastic arms and resin body? If so you still have to pin those...

LunaHound wrote:Can any resin experts help shed light on why so many miscast resin models also have those pink materials on them?

If i havnt remembered wrong , thats part of the molding?
what reasons would they have for falling apart for something so new?

Not claiming to be an expert.

The pink stuff is part of the mold. FW stuff have blue mold parts stuck on it sometimes.
It happens when you have undercuts and small areas. My Buzzgob Mek from Forgeworld had a ton of the mold stuck to various parts of his torso. My FC Ghazkull had some of it under his feet between the "spikes".

You dont get releasing agents on the cast so you can prime without washing... yet you get chunks of the mould... buy enough minis and you have free mould

I was reading the finecast stuff in WD .. I think it said something like you don't need to wash them.. then a sentence or so later, some pieces might need to be washed. So, my suggestion would be to at least soak em for a little while in soapy water just to be safe.

I bought a FW hellhound way back when and didn't know about the washing thing, my paint kept beading up in some parts as I was painting it, drove me crazy. Spray primer didn't stick there either. So now I just wash any kind of resin first just in case. It's really not that big of a deal to me, just another step.

Yup Necros I was being a bit sarcastic... I wash metals, plastics and if someone tells me no need to do that in any form of resin I will just giggle

NAVARRO wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:1/3 of complex models are miscasts. Simpler models are better.

There is a moderate improvement over metal in terms of ease of assembly because Super Glue fixes parts very quickly and you don't have to pin.

As for pricing, I never bought a Hive Tyrant in metal because it was too heavy. I like the light weight and I could deal with the construction issues in the resin version. Even so it is too expensive.

Your mileage may vary, as they say.

Okidoki.
Just wondering something isnt tyrant a hybrid kit? some plastic arms and resin body? If so you still have to pin those...

The display model in the window had a plastic heavy venom cannon. I don't know if that is part of the kit or a conversion the staff did.

I never washed metals though... do you need to? I never really had any issues, I even have some old metals that I never sprayed with varnish or anything and the paint jobs are still fine.

Necros wrote:I never washed metals though... do you need to? I never really had any issues, I even have some old metals that I never sprayed with varnish or anything and the paint jobs are still fine.

Yes you do mate, specially after all the filling and cleaning is done, the last thing you want is metal dust deposited on the details before you prime

Sorry to divert your ongoing discussion slightly - but has anyone had a go at painting up the new WE Noble/Orion resin minis?

I wouldn't mind giving it a go...but not sure if I should bother yet!

NAVARRO wrote:

Necros wrote:I never washed metals though... do you need to? I never really had any issues, I even have some old metals that I never sprayed with varnish or anything and the paint jobs are still fine.

Yes you do mate, specially after all the filling and cleaning is done, the last thing you want is metal dust deposited on the details before you prime

Yeah, it's one of those things that you probably don't need to do. Until you do.

Not every model is going to have enough mold release to make a difference, but a good clean surface will help your paint/primer go on more evenly and your glues to adhere better. It'd stink to unnecessarily have paint job marred, or a limb with a weak bond break off.

Kilkrazy wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:
Okidoki.
Just wondering something isnt tyrant a hybrid kit? some plastic arms and resin body? If so you still have to pin those...

The display model in the window had a plastic heavy venom cannon. I don't know if that is part of the kit or a conversion the staff did.

I'd imagine so. The HT on the GW website has all of its plastic limbs and the limbs for the old metal one were plastic as well. It's just the Tyranid Monstrous Arms sprue. So yes, a resin body and plastic arms.

Here's a link to my preview/review of some Dark Eldar Finecast models I purchased this weekend. I got an Archon, Succubus and a unit of Incubi. Overally they looked good with no bubbles/miscasts on the Archon and Succubus. For the Incubi, there was a slight bubble/miscast on the one pose (2 models from same mold) the left shoulder and nearby cloth had a bubble. But it was small and nothing a little green stuff fill in shouldnt fix.

Here's the link to my blog (there are many more picts there):

http://empireoftheeasternfringe.blogspot.com/2011/05/finecast-preview.html

I'm not very happy with my Black Orc Big Boss. Too bad I didn't look at it close enough and already have a coat of primer and a wash on it. If I could take it back, I would.

I thought the quality of casting would be similar to that of alpine miniatures which are what i would call 'fine cast miniatures' (see pictures bellow of a 54mm Russian tank commander) these models are not much bigger than GW figures, in fact the faces and hands are the same size as GW minis but they don't have the silly midget bodies. as you can see the casting is wonderful.. they cost about £8 to £9 each, so less than the citadel minis. and all flash and most of the sprues have been removed and the quality of the resin and sculpting is phenomenal. my DP is of a German WWII tank commander who is about 5-6cm tall and by alpine miniatures.



so as i was saying i was hoping that GW would bring out something of similar quality and price, but no, they haven't. the quality is very poor with many miss-casts and way WAY overpriced.. as i'm sure you can guess resin is much cheaper than white metal so it's beyond me why poorer quality models made of a cheaper material are more expensive.. i guess that GW for you


BOYCOTT GAMES WORKSHOP i joke but it would have been nice if they had brought out some more top notch minis.. like the space hulk ones :/


some of my non-GW resin minis.. it's a shame fine cast wasn't like this..

anyway that's my anti GW rant over

Instead of posting pictures that are side by side comparisons of the finecast and metal, why not paint them both flat black and then take the pictures? Surely any extra detail on the finecast models would be more apparent if they were both painted the same?

I popped into my local GW today to have a look at this new Finecast stuff and I must say I'm impressed, the detail on some of the models is absolutely fantastic, particularly some of the LOTR models which look uncannily like the actors in the films (Thedoen and Saruman especially). I picked up a WHFB Dwarf Lord as a painting project simply because the beard is incredible. Assembly was a breeze. Admittedly I did have to fill a couple of holes with greenstuff but it was literally a 5 minute job (including tracking down my greenstuff).

Of course there are some negatives, namely the prices and the fact that there were some miscasts on the shelves. None of them were really bad thought just the usual minor bubbles or slightly bent bits both of which are easy to fix. Although talking to the manager I did discover that there were a few more serious miscasts discovered on Saturday.

Another downside for me is the limited range but I can completely understand why it's so small at the moment. I just wish that they'd put more Dark Elf stuff beyond an Assassin and the Bolt Thrower in the first wave.

Overall I'm impressed by the models but disappointed with QA and the limited range. Hopefully those disappointments will change soon.

Just to balance out the GW love in that this post has nearly become, I also went to a local indie store and bought a Protectorate of Menoth Knights Exemplar squad box to satiate my rapidly growing interest in Warmahordes (hurry up PP I want my starter deal!!!!).