LunaHound wrote:
Then why did the metal incubi get replaced with resin ones right away?

If you look at it , wouldnt it make more sense if Fine Cast were say released 2 more months later than what we got now?

Planning or not is one thing , im saying, they pushed the release earlier for some reason.

Well, it was more like 7 months between metal Incubi and resin ones.

Thing is, it doesn't matter when they would have released Finecast, they'd still be "Well, why wasn't the last things released in metal not done in resin?" So if they pushed it out two months, It'd be the Haemonculi, Wracks, and Grotesques as the last metals, instead of the GKs. Or, if they had set their target date and started the conversion, then decided to push it out two months, that's two months when they are running out of stock on existing metals and two months of releases with no new non-plastics.

Yes, thats why i thought something had to have gone wrong.
And then we also see the quality of the FC line, it couldnt all be a coincidence, so i asked. And you gave a perfect answer which i 'll accept even if you havnt produced a GW CEO ID xD

BrassScorpion wrote:50 pages of mostly dross

How do you figure? Everyone telling the truth = dross? The Finecast release is crap, you can't have a rumored 35% miscast rate and call it anything but. The fact that GW employees are encouraging people to check blisters and boxes after purchase for defects, the pictures used on the website aren't even free of defects, and store displays are melting in the sunlight of a normal summer day...there's just no way to put a positive spin on that and try to pretend that the negativity is completely unwarranted.

I agree that claiming this was a "last-minute" thing with no planning or lead-in is kind of stupid, but still.

Sidstyler wrote:

BrassScorpion wrote:50 pages of mostly dross

How do you figure? Everyone telling the truth = dross? The Finecast release is crap, you can't have a rumored 35% miscast rate and call it anything but. The fact that GW employees are encouraging people to check blisters and boxes after purchase for defects, the pictures used on the website aren't even free of defects, and store displays are melting in the sunlight of a normal summer day...there's just no way to put a positive spin on that and try to pretend that the negativity is completely unwarranted.

I agree that claiming this was a "last-minute" thing with no planning or lead-in is kind of stupid, but still.

Guess I got a pretty damn good batch of Finecast. Out of 200 blisters I've called in about 2 of them. Had one box get returned by someone and we replaced it. That's out of a couple dozen boxes sold.

35% is pretty damn big exaggeration IMO. Haven't heard of any independent retailers with anything like that. And bitching on retailer forums makes Dakka look quite mellow in comparison. If people had problems, they be screaming.

Sidstyler wrote:

BrassScorpion wrote:50 pages of mostly dross

How do you figure? Everyone telling the truth = dross? The Finecast release is crap, you can't have a rumored 35% miscast rate and call it anything but. The fact that GW employees are encouraging people to check blisters and boxes after purchase for defects, the pictures used on the website aren't even free of defects, and store displays are melting in the sunlight of a normal summer day...there's just no way to put a positive spin on that and try to pretend that the negativity is completely unwarranted.

I agree that claiming this was a "last-minute" thing with no planning or lead-in is kind of stupid, but still.

Of course you can have a 35% miscast rate and still have a good product, if the product that isn't miscast is good.

Since people love the video game analogy, Microsoft had about a 30% RRoD rate. Over the years it rose to over 50% rate. That's terrible for a consumer electronic device. It also had ridiculously priced peripherals ($250au for a 200gb hard drive? $150au for a wireless reciever?). But it was insanely popular. Because it was good when it wasn't RRoDing on people. It helped that Microsoft had great customer support and managed to get good PR out of the whole thing.

It's entirely possible for people to see the good in Finecast. For example, Tyranid players who want to pay for it are probably overjoyed at not having Zoanthropes fall head first from people placed wrong on a grain of sand, or Hive Guard falling apart because they had the audacity to pick them up. Some models also look fantastic in resin, like Astorath. The difference is GW's marketing are doing entirely the wrong thing. If they just said yes, we realized there's an issue with quality, send in your miscast models and we'll send you a replacement and a free 'x' miniature for your troubles, then people would be pretty happy with Finecast.

But with GW saying absolutely nothing publicly about any of the issues raised about the new line and not really trying to play nice with people who have gotten some pretty awful stuff, it's exacerbating the issue.

So do we actually know if Finecast stuff is being made in the US, too?

It's becoming more and more apparent that the US QC is much, much better than the UK - over here we're getting far fewer reports of decent shipments. Something to be learned here?

I really hate people that say "Well I didn't have that experience, so it cannot therefore be true."

Don't be so naive.

So if Finecast melts at ~28c would that mean the minis would melt while holding them from my own body heat?

You also failed to straighten the crozius handle

Gotta pick on this one, the metal model i first got had (and still has) the crozius bent on the same angle as the one in his post... i think the original wasnt quite at the right angle.

I splashed out my £21 on two figures last week and it seems I got either side of it - Commisar Yarrick I'd rate at about 85%, with a few minor miscasts and bubbles, but the Chaplain with jumpack I'd put at 50%; mould slip, miscasts, bubbles - it's got the lot.

Having spent 30 years working with metal miniatures I can honestly say that, at the moment at least, "Finecast" is overpriced tat that is too soft and doesn't look like it's going to last 5 minutes - and I just collect and paint figures, I don't wargame with them. What's more annoying is my interest in figure painting, which waxes and wains over the years, has just perked up again to coincide with the price hike and the gradual deletion of the metal figures.

They should have left their metal figures alone and replaced all those dodgy, poorly detailed and executed plastic figures first (Orc Stormboyz spring to mind - quite possibly the worst figures I've seen in recent years).

Seriphis wrote:

You also failed to straighten the crozius handle

Gotta pick on this one, the metal model i first got had (and still has) the crozius bent on the same angle as the one in his post... i think the original wasnt quite at the right angle.

Also failing to straighten something which is clearly bent does not justify it.

Doubtful. It might get more flexible if you held it long enough, but melt? Don't think so. I do think, however, if left in a glass case with hot lights that is also sitting in the Arizona sunlight, they would actually begin to deform. Melt into a puddle? No, but deform to the point where they might not be salvageable? Quite possibly.

The main problems with the stuff isn't so much the melting, but the garbage casts that have garnered so much attention. Saw a guy with a space wolves character that was lacking pretty much the entire face, looked like a nurgle marine with a beard.

Obviously, it is hit or miss, but it is bad enough that it needs to be dealt with and should be a concern for those buying sight unseen.

FrozenSoul80 wrote:So if Finecast melts at ~28c would that mean the minis would melt while holding them from my own body heat?

Most materials soften and lose structural strength before they get to their melting temperature. It's possible that if you put a Finecast model in your trouser pocket for an hour, the combination of warmth and pressure would deform it.

Presumably not many people are going to carry around models in their pockets. However the resin certainly gets soft enough to bend easily under hot tap water which is about 50 degrees. A car on a summer's day, or a shop window, can easily reach that kind of temperature.

Thrax wrote:I really hate people that say "Well I didn't have that experience, so it cannot therefore be true."

Don't be so naive.

Actually I think very few people have come out and said that so far. Except for that one guy a while back who accused everyone posting "negative" reviews of being secret PP employees trying to discredit GW.

Well, I kinda did just now, but I'm not saying the Finecast product is crap necessarily, just that the release left a bit to be desired. Embarrassingly high miscast rate, and regardless of what that percentage may actually be, it must be relatively high if people are being encouraged in stores to open their boxes/blisters and inspect them for quality after purchase, and the whole thing about store displays melting or models being damaged from just sitting inside their own blisters...it's not living up to the hype so it's hard to argue that the release wasn't kind of laughable.

I'm perfectly willing to accept that some stores didn't have that problem and that most of the models they received were fine. I just wish all stores got that lucky.

I went to my local store last Friday and looked at many blisters with Finecast models. The quality varied very much. I was interested in buying Castellan Crowe, but a part of a boot was missing (saw that failure on pictures in the web as well).

Then I took a look at Abaddon and I was amazed by the details. I checked the miniature as good as I could and bought it. At home I only found a slight mistake as the the spiked Space Marine helmet did not look complete, but thats not a problem in my view.

I always wanted to paint Abaddon, but obviously the metal miniature never grabbed my attention. I am sure the details are the same, but you just see them better on resin.

In a nutshell: GW needs to work on the quality and get a higher % of acceptable quality. Right now I do not want to buy something which I cannot lay my eyes on before. But eventually I will do because the finescasts can look very good ...

Yeah, I've been wanting to get the Lelith model for a while...but I'd prefer to get one that has all her toes, you know? lol...

LunaHound wrote:I havnt read what other posts you received in earlier pages.

Don't worry, I must also have missed BrassScorpion's polite post

BTW, the new GW policy is that only people involved in a project know about it. So expect more weirdnes in the future.
Recent highlight: Price rise for Tomb King army book a week after release
Or denying any Finecast release (Wracks, Grotesque, Haemunculus, all Tomb King stuff) for June on the news poster

Also:
Finecast doesn't melt at 28 C: The outdoor temperature was that, right behind the store's window, the rack heated up a bit more. Still troublesome, as cars including all postal delivery cars get that hot easily during summer.

winterdyne wrote:So do we actually know if Finecast stuff is being made in the US, too?

It's becoming more and more apparent that the US QC is much, much better than the UK - over here we're getting far fewer reports of decent shipments. Something to be learned here?

I guess somebody in the US should check the backside of the card included in the blister to see if it says "manufactured in the UK" or "manufactured in the USA".

I'm also curious to know if later/second shipments have shown improvements compared to the first shipments?

Its is "manufactured in the UK"

As I understand, GW's US facility ceased metal, and thus now resin, production a few years ago. All Finecast is made in the UK.

Claimh_Solais wrote:Its is "manufactured in the UK"

Yes, but your flag indicates you live in Sweden...

This was a question for our American based gamers.

Every single piece of Finecast I purchased in the US was marked "Made in the UK".

Because it was more apparent in photos than in person, I fixed the Crozious on my Chaplain. For those asking about paint adhesion, it was fine, with no flaking or cracking.


I can also confirm as a US buyer than my card says Made in the UK.

My box of incubi say "Made in the UK" also.

mikhaila wrote:
Guess I got a pretty damn good batch of Finecast. Out of 200 blisters I've called in about 2 of them. Had one box get returned by someone and we replaced it. That's out of a couple dozen boxes sold.

35% is pretty damn big exaggeration IMO. Haven't heard of any independent retailers with anything like that. And bitching on retailer forums makes Dakka look quite mellow in comparison. If people had problems, they be screaming.

Yeah, 35% seems like internet hyperbole. I've got an email response from Mark Wells (after I emailed the investor relations folks) that says they've had a reported defect rate at around 3% and that they're still working through some bugs in the new process and should see less problems going forward.

I bought a termie librarian with no problems except a slightly bent staff which is probably a mold problem because the metal model had the same issue; not a big deal and easy to fix. I found that cleaning the resin flash was much easier than the metal flash; in fact it was true that most of it was easily pulled off with my fingers. I only needed my snips and files for the feet and a couple of other areas.

LunaHound wrote:Then why did the metal incubi get replaced with resin ones right away?

For those wanting to speculate that the Finecast release was somehow 'rushed', my understanding is that the release weekend (e.g. end of May) happens to also be GW's end of the financial year - so any initial FC sales would have counted towards this last year/quarter.

winterdyne wrote:So do we actually know if Finecast stuff is being made in the US, too?

I would highly doubt it. I visited the Memphis factory back in 2009 and they are only set up to do plastics. They only have the molds and machines for plastic kits, their assembly line is configured solely for boxing plastic kits, their raw material silos are geared for plastic, etc. The only space they had for metals were with the paints and everything else that gets shipped from Nottingham.

Metal production was UK-only, and I think it's safe to assume (but yes, only an assumption) that the nature of how they're making the FC models is that they're still a UK-only operation.

I'm so glad to hear Mark Wells himself has the time to converse with you about the QC of their finecast line.

I already had issue with GW's prices once single metal models got above $10, and that has been years ago. Now they have switched to a questionable material that will deform way too easily from just sunlight/ambient heat.

And prices are now easily 100% more over the point of what I felt comfortable paying. There is no amount of greater detail that is going to offset those two concerns from me

I thought I would wait and give it a chance before commenting. I went into my local GW on Friday and for the first time ever I actually got stick shock. There is a heck of a difference between talking about prices and then picking up a box and seeing the price and adding 10% tax to it. I really don;t think I am willing to pay those prices. As I have said before, double income no kids and high disposable income.

As to quality, 35% rate sounded dumb until I thought about what I saw in the store. Out of all the mini's I looked at most of them were sub-par - and here is the important bit - for the price they are asking for them.

What do you define as miscast? GW says 3%. For that to be the case they aren't including the models where part of a foot is missing or you can see the join between the cloak and armor is bubble and difficult to get to. Many of them were missing small pieces - but at that price they are charging I am expecting a lot better. As the prices have gone up so have my expectations and they simply cannot meet them. Yes, a little green stuff will fix it all - but at that price I am not expecting to have to do it.

By the way, what made me laugh was the huge slip miscast in the model cabinet for all to see - part of the marneus Calgar box set.

agnosto wrote:

mikhaila wrote:
Guess I got a pretty damn good batch of Finecast. Out of 200 blisters I've called in about 2 of them. Had one box get returned by someone and we replaced it. That's out of a couple dozen boxes sold.

35% is pretty damn big exaggeration IMO. Haven't heard of any independent retailers with anything like that. And bitching on retailer forums makes Dakka look quite mellow in comparison. If people had problems, they be screaming.

Yeah, 35% seems like internet hyperbole.
...

About one in three of the larger, complex models, is what a GW staff member told me when I asked about the miscasts. The miscast rate on the smaller models was not as bad.

I don't understand why they can't use the same material they use for all of their other plastic stuff? For example, the material used in Dark Eldar Warriors, Wyches, Space Marine Tac Squad, etc. I have only ever seen one problem with those and that was with one of my Dark Eldar Raiders where the front part that joins together looked like it was partially melted (I had people think that I melted it on purpose to look like battle damage ). Other than that, I have never really had a problem with that material.

Kurce wrote:I don't understand why they can't use the same material they use for all of their other plastic stuff? For example, the material used in Dark Eldar Warriors, Wyches, Space Marine Tac Squad, etc. I have only ever seen one problem with those and that was with one of my Dark Eldar Raiders where the front part that joins together looked like it was partially melted (I had people think that I melted it on purpose to look like battle damage ). Other than that, I have never really had a problem with that material.

Because that material is injection moulded plastic and requires complex moulds that can costs hundreds of thousands of pounds to produce, hence why only best selling models are produced in plastic. The new resin stuff is supposed to be a halfway house; it enables GW to use slightly retooled, existing moulds that were used for the metal stuff but with a cheaper material.

fullheadofhair wrote:I thought I would wait and give it a chance before commenting. I went into my local GW on Friday and for the first time ever I actually got stick shock. There is a heck of a difference between talking about prices and then picking up a box and seeing the price and adding 10% tax to it. I really don;t think I am willing to pay those prices. As I have said before, double income no kids and high disposable income.

As to quality, 35% rate sounded dumb until I thought about what I saw in the store. Out of all the mini's I looked at most of them were sub-par - and here is the important bit - for the price they are asking for them.

What do you define as miscast? GW says 3%. For that to be the case they aren't including the models where part of a foot is missing or you can see the join between the cloak and armor is bubble and difficult to get to. Many of them were missing small pieces - but at that price they are charging I am expecting a lot better. As the prices have gone up so have my expectations and they simply cannot meet them. Yes, a little green stuff will fix it all - but at that price I am not expecting to have to do it.

By the way, what made me laugh was the huge slip miscast in the model cabinet for all to see - part of the marneus Calgar box set.

I revisted the e-mail and I'll quote him here as I don't want to misquote him by going off of memory...

To put the quality issues in perspective, the number of reported cases was less than 3% of the product sold which for resin miniatures is remarkably low.

I completely understand what you and others are saying and I'm not trying to defend the move at all because the prices going up means less value for what I allocate in my nerd budget each month. Additionally, I'm not a great modeller so I'll have a harder time fixing any inconsistencies than many that post on here. I couldn't even be bothered to straighten the slightly bent staff on my termie librarian I bought though it painted up much more easily than my experience with metal has been thus far.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

filbert wrote:
Because that material is injection moulded plastic and requires complex moulds that can costs hundreds of thousands of pounds to produce, hence why only best selling models are produced in plastic. The new resin stuff is supposed to be a halfway house; it enables GW to use slightly retooled, existing moulds that were used for the metal stuff but with a cheaper material.

Good point. Here's hoping that we'll see an overall move towards plastic in the future as the current molds are replaced; this would address quality concerns and from what I understand be cheaper in the long run as the molds last longer and the product is less labor intensive.

fullheadofhair wrote:As to quality, 35% rate sounded dumb until I thought about what I saw in the store. Out of all the mini's I looked at most of them were sub-par - and here is the important bit - for the price they are asking for them.

I'm not targetting, your post just seemed like a good jumping off post for this:

Do you think the good ones are worth it at the price?-I do. I just see alot of people who argue why they "hate it"... but argue price and quality as if they were the same indistinguishable attribute, even when they've made clear they don't think any model should cost as much.

fullheadofhair wrote:What do you define as miscast? GW says 3%....

I'm sure GW's done what most companies do... they've done some sort of cost benefit analysis where by they screen the worst 3% as rejects and just replace whatever percentage are defective, because at some point the cost to screen exceeds the cost to replace. I realize its a big inconvenience but does anyone really want to spend more?

The majority of the Finecast models have had new molds for them, i.e. any of them with the sprue frame, at the very least. And these are things that are unlikely to see plastic, as they don't have the volume of sales, and requiring resculpting for plastic production. If anything does get converted for plastic, it will likely tie into an army release, and be more of a "core" choice, e.g. the Sister of Battle Exorcist.

As for the 3% reject rate, that's either their internal production rejection, or some sort of number massaging spin. In my purchases last week, out of 10 sprues (and thus, 10 different molds), I had one that I'd consider adequate. That's 90% right there. Yes, that's a tiny selection, but the condition of any one sprue has no bearing on any other. So, essentially, I rolled under 3 on a d100 nine times out of ten.

And, as I've noted, several of the Finecast issues are indicative of failed molds, not transient miscast issues. There were knowingly running and producing bad parts, so I find that 3% claim specious at best.

Alendrel wrote:...And, as I've noted, several of the Finecast issues are indicative of failed molds, not transient miscast issues...

Then its probably good that some have noted an abrupt change it spruing for certain models and the result is a visible improvements. Just gives credence to your read being a mold quality issue.

^^I kind of agree with this.^^

I had to go through 5 blister packs of Tau ethereal before I found 1 that was not miscast.

I will likely buy some of this FC stuff but I will only buy it in a GW shop and I'll open it there so I can inspect it and make exchanges of faulty casts. They will have to up their quality to an acceptable standard or they will loose cash hand over fist with miscast returns.

Do I find the good ones worth the cost?

No.

The material, for the cost is sub par.

It's too soft - doesn't cope with surfacing / sanding without burring up horribly. Frequently cleanup reveals air bubbles just under the surface. These aren't just cast issues - they're material mix issues.

It's too thermally reactive. I like dynamic poses. These require a certain rigidity in the material. If a warm day in my games room (a conservatory) warped a model I'd spent many hours working on I would be mightily pissed. If the material softens like that, it's just not suitable for the task it's pitched at.

mikhaila wrote:
Guess I got a pretty damn good batch of Finecast. Out of 200 blisters I've called in about 2 of them. Had one box get returned by someone and we replaced it. That's out of a couple dozen boxes sold.

35% is pretty damn big exaggeration IMO. Haven't heard of any independent retailers with anything like that. And bitching on retailer forums makes Dakka look quite mellow in comparison. If people had problems, they be screaming.

As usual, after pages of rants and hyperbole from others, Mikhaila shows up with actual facts.

Perhaps the reports of very high flaw rate is coming from folks looking through the leftovers at stores that haven't sent back the bad ones?

OMG, 52 pages allready!Lol!

Eilif wrote:

mikhaila wrote:
Guess I got a pretty damn good batch of Finecast. Out of 200 blisters I've called in about 2 of them. Had one box get returned by someone and we replaced it. That's out of a couple dozen boxes sold.

35% is pretty damn big exaggeration IMO. Haven't heard of any independent retailers with anything like that. And bitching on retailer forums makes Dakka look quite mellow in comparison. If people had problems, they be screaming.

As usual, after pages of rants and hyperbole from others, Mikhaila shows up with actual facts.

Perhaps the reports of very high flaw rate is coming from folks looking through the leftovers at stores that haven't sent back the bad ones?

And what makes Mikhailia's post facts, and the others hyperbole? Lots of people are posting the experiences they had, personally, which makes them just as valid as Mikhaila's.

For reference, my flaws were all from product purchased and examined as soon as the GW store opened on Saturday. And, even if it was just leftovers, the fact that there were that many bad leftovers is just as damning. It should all be good product on the shelf, and any bad product found should be removed, not left there.

Soul of Iron wrote:^^I kind of agree with this.^^

I had to go through 5 blister packs of Tau ethereal before I found 1 that was not miscast.

I will likely buy some of this FC stuff but I will only buy it in a GW shop and I'll open it there so I can inspect it and make exchanges of faulty casts. They will have to up their quality to an acceptable standard or they will loose cash hand over fist with miscast returns.

Ok, why are you buying an ethereal? I own 3 different models and have never fielded one and wouldn't have bought them if they weren't included in some trade/ebay transaction.

agnosto wrote:

Yeah, 35% seems like internet hyperbole. I've got an email response from Mark Wells (after I emailed the investor relations folks) that says they've had a reported defect rate at around 3% and that they're still working through some bugs in the new process and should see less problems going forward.

yes yes, because obviously Mark Wells doesnt have ANY vested interest in downplaying the defect rate at all.........

carmachu wrote:

agnosto wrote:

Yeah, 35% seems like internet hyperbole. I've got an email response from Mark Wells (after I emailed the investor relations folks) that says they've had a reported defect rate at around 3% and that they're still working through some bugs in the new process and should see less problems going forward.

yes yes, because obviously Mark Wells doesnt have ANY vested interest in downplaying the defect rate at all.........

And all the Henny Pennys running around pronouncing that the sky is falling are more correct? Nah. I'm not a GW apologist, nor am I an idiot so I would expect that the truth, like so much in life, is somewhere in the middle and not at either extreme. Besides, the 3% I was informed of is out of total whereas the mentioned 35% was specific to large/complex models only.

As an investor, I will be looking at the company's financials over the next two reporting periods and see whether it makes sense to maintain my investment and that holds true for all investors, with any company. Wells and co. are well aware of the facts in that unhappy investors means less bonus for them and less capital for the company; if nothing else, self-serving human nature will do much to make sure they don't run the company into the ground.

Well, I suppose its time to ask this thread to be moved to discussions as there isn't much news or rumor at this point in the thread. So if things had to be summed up, what can be said for both Pros and Cons regarding finecast miniatures?

Cons:
1. Product is too expensive regardless of the benefits.
2. Product is too susceptible to heat, deforming in display windows and in transport cases.
3. Product longevity is questionable. How long will it be before a model would need replacing?

Pros:
1. Product is easy to work with; cutting and shaping is a breeze.
2. Product is lightweight.
3. Product has slightly sharper detail.

With that summary, I'd love to wrap up this entire thread!

Alpharius wrote:With that summary, I'd love to wrap up this entire thread!

Unfortunately, there are some issues I have to take up with the summary

Rymafyr wrote:Well, I suppose its time to ask this thread to be moved to discussions as there isn't much news or rumor at this point in the thread. So if things had to be summed up, what can be said for both Pros and Cons regarding finecast miniatures?

Cons:
1. Product is too expensive regardless of the benefits.
2. Product is too susceptible to heat, deforming in display windows and in transport cases.
3. Product longevity is questionable. How long will it be before a model would need replacing?

Pros:
1. Product is easy to work with; cutting and shaping is a breeze.
2. Product is lightweight.
3. Product has slightly shbarper detail.

Firstly, no-one really knows how susceptible they actually are to heat until some testing has been done. There has been reports of minis bending in direct sunlight, and minis deforming in their blisters in shop windows, but this is in a greenhouse-type environment. No-one really knows whether ambient temperature alone is enough to damage them

Longevity - it looks like someone's flippant, offhand comment is in danger of becoming a nasty rumour if not stepped on. Someone made a joke that they were biodegradable; again, no-one knows the exact material composition but I think it is safe to assume that a plastic-type material won't biodegrade any time soon.

Detail - All the like for like comparison pics have thus far failed to conclusively demonstrate which is finer detail. The pics I have seen with both minis primed white has thus far not been conclusive. I think the whole detail thing is just marketing flim flam.

But yes, I think the thread needs to be moved before it buries the genuine news and/or rumour

I have seen and held in my hands 1 Fine Cast set: my buddy's Techmarine with servitors.

All of the bits were in tip-top shape. No miscasts that I could see. No air bubbles that I could see, and I was looking pretty closely at all of the sprues and bits.

So, they're batting 1.000 with me at the moment. I hope that some of the problems that have gone out to market (and shown in threads like these) get taken care of soon.

While I'm not a fan of resin over metal I did get a Finecast Autarch at the weekend and I can say mine was pretty good, a couple of small bubbles on the bottom of the cloak - but nothing that couldn't have happened with metal - other than that it was perfect.

filbert wrote:

Alpharius wrote:With that summary, I'd love to wrap up this entire thread!

Unfortunately, there are some issues I have to take up with the summary

Rymafyr wrote:Well, I suppose its time to ask this thread to be moved to discussions as there isn't much news or rumor at this point in the thread. So if things had to be summed up, what can be said for both Pros and Cons regarding finecast miniatures?

Cons:
1. Product is too expensive regardless of the benefits.
2. Product is too susceptible to heat, deforming in display windows and in transport cases.
3. Product longevity is questionable. How long will it be before a model would need replacing?

Pros:
1. Product is easy to work with; cutting and shaping is a breeze.
2. Product is lightweight.
3. Product has slightly shbarper detail.

Firstly, no-one really knows how susceptible they actually are to heat until some testing has been done. There has been reports of minis bending in direct sunlight, and minis deforming in their blisters in shop windows, but this is in a greenhouse-type environment. No-one really knows whether ambient temperature alone is enough to damage them

Longevity - it looks like someone's flippant, offhand comment is in danger of becoming a nasty rumour if not stepped on. Someone made a joke that they were biodegradable; again, no-one knows the exact material composition but I think it is safe to assume that a plastic-type material won't biodegrade any time soon.

Detail - All the like for like comparison pics have thus far failed to conclusively demonstrate which is finer detail. The pics I have seen with both minis primed white has thus far not been conclusive. I think the whole detail thing is just marketing flim flam.

But yes, I think the thread needs to be moved before it buries the genuine news and/or rumour

The summary was never meant to be conclusive or factual other than being topics still being discussed... Thus the request. So I concur whole heartedly.

Rymafyr wrote:Well, I suppose its time to ask this thread to be moved to discussions as there isn't much news or rumor at this point in the thread. So if things had to be summed up, what can be said for both Pros and Cons regarding finecast miniatures?

Cons:
1. Product is too expensive regardless of the benefits.
2. Product is too susceptible to heat, deforming in display windows and in transport cases.
3. Product longevity is questionable. How long will it be before a model would need replacing?

Pros:
1. Product is easy to work with; cutting and shaping is a breeze.
2. Product is lightweight.
3. Product has slightly sharper detail.

Erm, I guess you missed 60-70% of the posts in this thread, all talking about miscasts

aka_mythos wrote:
I'm sure GW's done what most companies do... they've done some sort of cost benefit analysis where by they screen the worst 3% as rejects and just replace whatever percentage are defective, because at some point the cost to screen exceeds the cost to replace. I realize its a big inconvenience but does anyone really want to spend more?

This reminds me of Fight Club, where Edward Norton is describing how his company compares the costs of a recall versus the lawsuits that they could be involved in and going with the lawsuits because they were projected to cost less in the long run.

Kroothawk wrote:

Rymafyr wrote:Well, I suppose its time to ask this thread to be moved to discussions as there isn't much news or rumor at this point in the thread. So if things had to be summed up, what can be said for both Pros and Cons regarding finecast miniatures?

Cons:
1. Product is too expensive regardless of the benefits.
2. Product is too susceptible to heat, deforming in display windows and in transport cases.
3. Product longevity is questionable. How long will it be before a model would need replacing?

Pros:
1. Product is easy to work with; cutting and shaping is a breeze.
2. Product is lightweight.
3. Product has slightly sharper detail.

Erm, I guess you missed 60-70% of the posts in this thread, all talking about miscasts

Nope. Just figured it'd been done to death. Which is also why I left things open-ended. Also, I didn't want look biased by having more cons than pros. (Despite my obvious feelings for the FC)

Rymafyr wrote:Nope. Just figured it'd been done to death. Which is also why I left things open-ended.

Ah, a summary that deliberately leaves out the main points of discussion, very clever

Don't get me wrong. There should be zero miscasts in a product this expensive. Realistically those are eliminated before shipping, if GW were doing things right to begin with. I suppose I'm looking at miscasts as a quantifiable amount where as the other topics seem more subjective based on perspective.

Late to the party but it's more the better in my opinion. I ordered a big mek with SAG, the metal version was both unbalanced and easily broken with a ton of weight on one connection point. I have to order direct from GW no store local, or at least not within a reasonable drive.

First reaction on opening it in my dark bedroom, not bad... Then I looked at it more closely and hello customer service....

agnosto wrote:
And all the Henny Pennys running around pronouncing that the sky is falling are more correct? Nah. I'm not a GW apologist, nor am I an idiot so I would expect that the truth, like so much in life, is somewhere in the middle and not at either extreme. Besides, the 3% I was informed of is out of total whereas the mentioned 35% was specific to large/complex models only.

Did I say they were telling the truth either? No. But really, who is going to believe what the CEO of the company is going to say that all is well with a new product?

As an investor, I will be looking at the company's financials over the next two reporting periods and see whether it makes sense to maintain my investment and that holds true for all investors, with any company. Wells and co. are well aware of the facts in that unhappy investors means less bonus for them and less capital for the company; if nothing else, self-serving human nature will do much to make sure they don't run the company into the ground.

If you understand that unhappy investors means less bonus and less capital, then you know they will be more willing to take short term gains instead of long term ones. As judeged by at least one or two of their recent actions.

Further, You should be looking at the past couple years before deciding as well. Osbald here does an excellent analysis of them every time they come out. Generally speaking they all pretty much say the same- either gross is up or down, but what stays the same is less people are buying per unit, units get more expensive as they raise the prices. Unless that chances, its an unsustainable system.

Alendrel wrote:

Eilif wrote:

mikhaila wrote:
Guess I got a pretty damn good batch of Finecast. Out of 200 blisters I've called in about 2 of them. Had one box get returned by someone and we replaced it. That's out of a couple dozen boxes sold.

35% is pretty damn big exaggeration IMO. Haven't heard of any independent retailers with anything like that. And bitching on retailer forums makes Dakka look quite mellow in comparison. If people had problems, they be screaming.

As usual, after pages of rants and hyperbole from others, Mikhaila shows up with actual facts.

Perhaps the reports of very high flaw rate is coming from folks looking through the leftovers at stores that haven't sent back the bad ones?

And what makes Mikhailia's post facts, and the others hyperbole? Lots of people are posting the experiences they had, personally, which makes them just as valid as Mikhaila's.

For reference, my flaws were all from product purchased and examined as soon as the GW store opened on Saturday. And, even if it was just leftovers, the fact that there were that many bad leftovers is just as damning. It should all be good product on the shelf, and any bad product found should be removed, not left there.

I completely concur here. Who cares if ONE GUY got lucky on his order? I've personally seen the miscasts and issues, so have countless others. It's great that he's been having a good run of things, more power to him, I wish him luck in all of his future endeavors, but his word is hardly the word of God. Last time I checked, he's just a game shop owner that wasn't walking on water or healing the dying (correct me if I am wrong, oh please do.)

And great, so his "facts" are complementary to GW, what of it? It's nothing conclusive, just his two cents. Last time I checked, most game stores enjoy keeping the buzz on the products they carry positive to keep sales going, it only makes sense, yes? All of the local game store owners do the same thing, they'd be stupid not to unless the issues truly are hurting them. Only the ones that got screwed hard by unfortunately high numbers of defective product in their orders are the ones in the various local scenes around the globe that are pissed off and losing business, like the FLGS owners I know personally. One even said if things get worse, he WILL be posting on forums and throwing up a Youtube video to show people his problems with GW. It's all hinging on his future orders and what GW does about it. And personally, put yourself in his shoes, who can blame him? So should guys like me who see this crap going on where they game and hang out just shut up and live with it because Mikhaila and GW says so when it's creating drama at our FLGS and costing the local owners money? Let me answer that for you: Hell no.

People can disagree on whatever they want, but don't be so friggin' naive, finecast has big problems for many people, and they shouldn't be treated like liars and trolls because of it.

Bravo Thrax.

puma713 wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:
I'm sure GW's done what most companies do... they've done some sort of cost benefit analysis where by they screen the worst 3% as rejects and just replace whatever percentage are defective, because at some point the cost to screen exceeds the cost to replace. I realize its a big inconvenience but does anyone really want to spend more?

This reminds me of Fight Club, where Edward Norton is describing how his company compares the costs of a recall versus the lawsuits that they could be involved in and going with the lawsuits because they were projected to cost less in the long run.

Yes, many corporations faced this. One such example was Ford Pinto. The process to correct the life-threatening design flaws was more costly than the lawsuits for deaths caused by said design.

Thrax wrote:

Alendrel wrote:

Eilif wrote:

mikhaila wrote:
Guess I got a pretty damn good batch of Finecast. Out of 200 blisters I've called in about 2 of them. Had one box get returned by someone and we replaced it. That's out of a couple dozen boxes sold.

35% is pretty damn big exaggeration IMO. Haven't heard of any independent retailers with anything like that. And bitching on retailer forums makes Dakka look quite mellow in comparison. If people had problems, they be screaming.

As usual, after pages of rants and hyperbole from others, Mikhaila shows up with actual facts.

Perhaps the reports of very high flaw rate is coming from folks looking through the leftovers at stores that haven't sent back the bad ones?

And what makes Mikhailia's post facts, and the others hyperbole? Lots of people are posting the experiences they had, personally, which makes them just as valid as Mikhaila's.

For reference, my flaws were all from product purchased and examined as soon as the GW store opened on Saturday. And, even if it was just leftovers, the fact that there were that many bad leftovers is just as damning. It should all be good product on the shelf, and any bad product found should be removed, not left there.

I completely concur here. Who cares if ONE GUY got lucky on his order? I've personally seen the miscasts and issues, so have countless others. It's great that he's been having a good run of things, more power to him, I wish him luck in all of his future endeavors, but his word is hardly the word of God. Last time I checked, he's just a game shop owner that wasn't walking on water or healing the dying (correct me if I am wrong, oh please do.)

And great, so his "facts" are complementary to GW, what of it? It's nothing conclusive, just his two cents. Last time I checked, most game stores enjoy keeping the buzz on the products they carry positive to keep sales going, it only makes sense, yes? All of the local game store owners do the same thing, they'd be stupid not to unless the issues truly are hurting them. Only the ones that got screwed hard by unfortunately high numbers of defective product in their orders are the ones in the various local scenes around the globe that are pissed off and losing business, like the FLGS owners I know personally. One even said if things get worse, he WILL be posting on forums and throwing up a Youtube video to show people his problems with GW. It's all hinging on his future orders and what GW does about it. And personally, put yourself in his shoes, who can blame him? So should guys like me who see this crap going on where they game and hang out just shut up and live with it because Mikhaila and GW says so when it's creating drama at our FLGS and costing the local owners money? Let me answer that for you: Hell no.

People can disagree on whatever they want, but don't be so friggin' naive, finecast has big problems for many people, and they shouldn't be treated like liars and trolls because of it.

Unfrotunately, it is a sad fact of wargaming forums that you have a few members who have followings of sychophants who are ready to dogpile any contradictory arguement, regardless of its merits. Compounding this situation is the fact that some use the almighty Post Count as a replacement for credibility. We have even seen this week in the Swap Shop a seller call out a buyer based upon post count, defending themselves with their own post count and a mighty 10 Good Sales total... wow! If I didnt have 100+ on other forums I might be impressed by this... or not.

AvatarForm wrote:[
Unfrotunately, it is a sad fact of wargaming forums that you have a few members who have followings of sychophants who are ready to dogpile any contradictory arguement, regardless of its merits. Compounding this situation is the fact that some use the almighty Post Count as a replacement for credibility. We have even seen this week in the Swap Shop a seller call out a buyer based upon post count, defending themselves with their own post count and a mighty 10 Good Sales total... wow! If I didnt have 100+ on other forums I might be impressed by this... or not.

Yep, and then deleted.

Vandil wrote:Late to the party but it's more the better in my opinion. I ordered a big mek with SAG, the metal version was both unbalanced and easily broken with a ton of weight on one connection point. I have to order direct from GW no store local, or at least not within a reasonable drive.

First reaction on opening it in my dark bedroom, not bad... Then I looked at it more closely and hello customer service....

Yeah. . . .and how'd you like paying almost $40 for that?

That Big Mek w/SAG reminded me more of the kind of way the Forgeworld minis come through the mail. Plenty of flash/bubbles/bent parts needing heat, and miscasts. for the amount of money they charge you would think that they would come, in great shape, cleaned up from release agent, de-burred, sanded and practically ready to just assemble and paint out of the box, but noooooo, GW/FW sends you so much to work on before you can assemble and paint the minis.

so, for more money you spend, the more work you have to do on these "super-fine" resin models.

Now as to the apparent parallel to FW minis, I have to0 say i got models from Old Crow for way less (8 models running the same as a three or two model order) And all I really had to do was add glue, assemble and paint!

Smaller company that charges less, and sends out a model in a more ready to assemble and paint condition than the ahem, "porsche" of the Minis world?

This just shows that GW is Fat, Happy and Lazy.

I've bought the Eldar Scouts yesterday.

I do have to say that I was impressed, and as far as I could see there were no problems on that product. Oh dear, the feet were horrible, at least one feet for every figure had a twist or something wrong, but it's not a main issue.

Quality seems good, the only thing that I wonder is how this thing is resin and yet it's flexible.

One rifle was bent, I easily bent it the other way and the rifle straightned up.

I've glued the backpack and deliberatly threw the miniature on the floor from the table (adding a bit of speed). The figure bounced on the floor, I picked it up and had no damage at all.

I'm just wondering if I've been lucky, reading about Finecast reviews and after looking at the Ork above gave me fear.

I probably don't see the bubbles, or the little wrong details, but I can say that for the product I've bought, I'm happy. Lightweight, sturdy and yet flexible.

puma713 wrote:

Vandil wrote:Late to the party but it's more the better in my opinion. I ordered a big mek with SAG, the metal version was both unbalanced and easily broken with a ton of weight on one connection point. I have to order direct from GW no store local, or at least not within a reasonable drive.

First reaction on opening it in my dark bedroom, not bad... Then I looked at it more closely and hello customer service....

Yeah. . . .and how'd you like paying almost $40 for that?

Considering a lot of flaws are fairly easy to fix and a ring to customer service gets you a free replacement.

You should feel just fine.

If you don't, PM me and we'll work out a somewhat fair price for me buying your warhams collection.

LunaHound wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:[
Unfrotunately, it is a sad fact of wargaming forums that you have a few members who have followings of sychophants who are ready to dogpile any contradictory arguement, regardless of its merits. Compounding this situation is the fact that some use the almighty Post Count as a replacement for credibility. We have even seen this week in the Swap Shop a seller call out a buyer based upon post count, defending themselves with their own post count and a mighty 10 Good Sales total... wow! If I didnt have 100+ on other forums I might be impressed by this... or not.

Yep, and then deleted.

To what do you refer?

Amusingly, the guy who claims his Gandalf melted in the sun has now recanted his story completely, apparently believing his model was miscast and the material is completely blameless in this. Maybe he should have paused and thought about that possibility before writing a condemning blog post about it. Apparently he's now being harassed because of that act of stupidity, for which I have zero sympathy for him.

Ah, no melting, just a miscast that caused it to droop so far as the pop the supporting metal pin out of the leg... Wait, is that supposed to be better?

It isn't hard to test this.

Get an empty sprue. Pin it upright on a piece of card with a drawing pin. Put it in your car's rear window.

Put a second one in the car boot. Put a third in a house window facing the sun. Put a fourth in a house room which gets hot from the sun.

Yeah. It's not that difficult a thing to test. You only need one miniature at most (which won't be ruined by the test) and chances are you won't even need to buy it (easy to blag sprues off folks in store really).

Heck, I've shown what happens with hot water.

I didn't pin anything, but I did place an empty sprue on a metal plate on my cars mask, in full daylight with 30 degrees in the shade. Two hours later the sprue was still there, unchanged in shape or consistency. Well, a bit more bendy, but that's it.

As a side note, the models themselves (Lelith and Snikch) had no major flaws and even the copious amounts of flash on Snikch was easy to remove. However, I am an experienced modeler and I feel those casts, while superior in just about all aspects to metal, aren't really suitable for your average 13 year old gamer, since careful movements and surgical precision with your knife and sandpaper are required to avoid ruining some of the actual finer detail on the model. There were some air bubbles here and there, but easily fixable with green stuff, which again makes the product unsuitable for unexperienced users.

Interestingly, it took GW UK three days to process my order for two measly models when usually they shipped the same day. Either they're working round the clock to push the kits to b'n'm stores first and foremost or, one would hope, they actually take their time in QC.

Agamemnon2 wrote:Amusingly, the guy who claims his Gandalf melted in the sun has now recanted his story completely, apparently believing his model was miscast and the material is completely blameless in this. Maybe he should have paused and thought about that possibility before writing a condemning blog post about it. Apparently he's now being harassed because of that act of stupidity, for which I have zero sympathy for him.

No sympathy for someone that's actually willing to correct his errors, admit his mistake, and call out those who blew his original post out of proportion?

Actually, I kinda agree. I don't so much feel sympathy as admiration.

Good on you, Alendrel. That's a noble sentiment.

Somewhat related, I had two sets of legs missing off the spru when i orderd 5 corvus pattern armour marines from FW, and they sent me loads of extra bits with the replacement, I think their customer service is spot on in my experience.

But its not popular to say that on here so... yeah, I hate GW they should give us all free money.

In fact no feth you guys, I think they aren't such a bad bunch after all.

mattyrm wrote:But its not popular to say that on here so... yeah, I hate GW they should give us all free money.

Don't know how you came to that conclusion. From what I can tell no one has ever claimed that GW's customer service was anything but spot-on.

puma713 wrote:

Vandil wrote:Late to the party but it's more the better in my opinion. I ordered a big mek with SAG, the metal version was both unbalanced and easily broken with a ton of weight on one connection point. I have to order direct from GW no store local, or at least not within a reasonable drive.

First reaction on opening it in my dark bedroom, not bad... Then I looked at it more closely and hello customer service....

Yeah. . . .and how'd you like paying almost $40 for that?

I didn't really it's way to much, there was a full 12 man Spartan hoplite unit + captain for the same $$ it was pewter and made in the UK! I've been going back and forth with Dan from the blog/news letter at GW over email. He finally convinced me to try one and send him back pictures of it. I'll see if customer service will replace it with store credit and I'll use it on plastics. It was funny I'd spent at least one email telling him how important it is for the models to have durability when people spend 10hrs painting one. Then the big mek shows with a busted boss pole right out of the box. I sent him back my FRPgames order history for the last 2 months with the pics. All of it was for other games and it wasn't small. I asked him to pass it along to whomever he thought needed to see it, the mek will be the last Finecast anything I order for a long time if ever again. I doubt it will make any difference but if you don't speak up putting your money where your mouth is they're just going to go along oblivious to the problems. They can either fix it or lose me as a customer, only time will tell. (:edit CS replaced it with another BM+SAG, not ideal but I can live with it assuming the next one isn't dorked up in the same way.)

Here is my most recent arrival. I was tipped onto by the sale thread in this forum. The contrast jumps up and pimp slaps you. Maybe I'm old fashioned but I prefer the personal touch and quality product to the shiny box art and mass produced crap product. (I collect Hasbro for that)

Vandil wrote:
Here is my most recent arrival. I was tipped onto by the sale thread in this forum. The contrast jumps up and pimp slaps you. Maybe I'm old fashioned but I prefer the personal touch and quality product to the shiny box art and mass produced crap product. (I collect Hasbro for that)

Always loved Heresy's personal touch, and the sweeties are always wonderful. Hasslefree does it too.

Enjoy your British lolly.

Just popping in here to confirm something regarding heat.

It's the taller and more slender components that seem to be more fragile. Poles, trophy racks, banners. And it very much depends on the angle they are at.

I say this as the local GW's Azhag has now had his banner pole droop over to the point where it's curled over the Wyvern's wings. The rest of him is fine. Just the spindly banner pole, likely due to the 'weight' of the banner itself.

That's nothing that couldn't be solved by drilling and pinning the length of the banner pole.

True. Just thought I'd bring that up. It would never have happened with the metal. The banner would never have drooped. Admittedly it'd be a pain in the backside to get assembled and remain that way but I'm slightly concerned about that.

Trying to think what other things in the range have a free flying banner like that.

It makes it worse that Azhag's a definate centrepiece model that people would -want- to display.

Vandil wrote:

puma713 wrote:

Vandil wrote:Late to the party but it's more the better in my opinion. I ordered a big mek with SAG, the metal version was both unbalanced and easily broken with a ton of weight on one connection point. I have to order direct from GW no store local, or at least not within a reasonable drive.

First reaction on opening it in my dark bedroom, not bad... Then I looked at it more closely and hello customer service....

Yeah. . . .and how'd you like paying almost $40 for that?

I didn't really it's way to much, there was a full 12 man Spartan hoplite unit + captain for the same $$ it was pewter and made in the UK! I've been going back and forth with Dan from the blog/news letter at GW over email. He finally convinced me to try one and send him back pictures of it. I'll see if customer service will replace it with store credit and I'll use it on plastics. It was funny I'd spent at least one email telling him how important it is for the models to have durability when people spend 10hrs painting one. Then the big mek shows with a busted boss pole right out of the box. I sent him back my FRPgames order history for the last 2 months with the pics. All of it was for other games and it wasn't small. I asked him to pass it along to whomever he thought needed to see it, the mek will be the last Finecast anything I order for a long time if ever again. I doubt it will make any difference but if you don't speak up putting your money where your mouth is they're just going to go along oblivious to the problems. They can either fix it or lose me as a customer, only time will tell. (:edit CS replaced it with another BM+SAG, not ideal but I can live with it assuming the next one isn't dorked up in the same way.)

Here is my most recent arrival. I was tipped onto by the sale thread in this forum. The contrast jumps up and pimp slaps you. Maybe I'm old fashioned but I prefer the personal touch and quality product to the shiny box art and mass produced crap product. (I collect Hasbro for that)

I can also attest to the extra mile Heresy goes to.

When I was building a Nurgle Daemon army, I was not too impressed with GW's offering and so I bought the Ltd Ed Tunnel Dweller and 20 Blights... problem was, one of the blights was missing its head... no biggie. But I let the guys know and along with the head, they sent me an entire new blight.

Un-necessary, but a nice bonus.

I doubt GW would do that on purpose these days.

Fun fact:
"What's new today" features an article titled "The Black Rage Descends".
And no, it is not about the public reaction to Finecast

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=16800038a

Kroothawk wrote:Fun fact:
"What's new today" features an article titled "The Black Rage Descends".
And no, it is not about the public reaction to Finecast

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=16800038a

Would be funny if whomever posted it was knowingly going for the double meaning though!

Kilkrazy wrote:That's nothing that couldn't be solved by drilling and pinning the length of the banner pole.

Wasn't this one of the perks of going from metal to Failcast? "Yay! No more drilling and pinning!"

Alpharius wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Fun fact:
"What's new today" features an article titled "The Black Rage Descends".
And no, it is not about the public reaction to Finecast

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=16800038a

Would be funny if whomever posted it was knowingly going for the double meaning though!

Hah! A sort of subversion from within...

Worglock wrote:

puma713 wrote:

Vandil wrote:Late to the party but it's more the better in my opinion. I ordered a big mek with SAG, the metal version was both unbalanced and easily broken with a ton of weight on one connection point. I have to order direct from GW no store local, or at least not within a reasonable drive.

First reaction on opening it in my dark bedroom, not bad... Then I looked at it more closely and hello customer service....

Yeah. . . .and how'd you like paying almost $40 for that?

Considering a lot of flaws are fairly easy to fix and a ring to customer service gets you a free replacement.

You should feel just fine.

Pulling a roach out of my sandwich is easy to fix and, a quick walk to the counter would get me a new one, but I wouldn't feel just fine about it.

At $38 for one model, the thing should be damn near perfect. But, I should be happy about spending my hard-earned money on an overpriced, hyped-up version of something I could've gotten cheaper and more resilient two weeks ago. Right?

Alendrel wrote:No sympathy for someone that's actually willing to correct his errors, admit his mistake, and call out those who blew his original post out of proportion?

Actually, I kinda agree. I don't so much feel sympathy as admiration.

If he'd bothered to check his facts to start with, the whole debacle could have been avoided. But no, he thought it was better to run along to the echo chamber and scream.

puma713 wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:That's nothing that couldn't be solved by drilling and pinning the length of the banner pole.

Wasn't this one of the perks of going from metal to Failcast? "Yay! No more drilling and pinning!"

You don't honestly think GW would give up the lucrative pin vise trade, do you? Especially at their markup.

puma713 wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:That's nothing that couldn't be solved by drilling and pinning the length of the banner pole.

Wasn't this one of the perks of going from metal to Failcast? "Yay! No more drilling and pinning!"

I don't recall GW touting this....and many of the new finecast figs don't need pinning for basic structural assembly. I replace all my banners, etc. with metal because I prefer the rigidity....but either way, the resin is infinitely easier to drill into.

My first finecast was an ork painboy....detail was nice, weight is fine. He has sat in my garage workbench with no "melting" or anything of the sort. The syringe tip was miscast-as I would expect be it metal, plastic, etc. replaced with a tac tip (which I would have done anyway)

I am not happy to pay almost 20$ for a single fig....However, the difference between what I expected to pay (about 12-14$) is not so much that I expect the figure to leap out of the packaging assembled, paint itself and then do my taxes...

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Alendrel wrote:No sympathy for someone that's actually willing to correct his errors, admit his mistake, and call out those who blew his original post out of proportion?

Actually, I kinda agree. I don't so much feel sympathy as admiration.

If he'd bothered to check his facts to start with, the whole debacle could have been avoided. But no, he thought it was better to run along to the echo chamber and scream.

By which you mean a personal blog that has 60 followers after being linked all over a bunch of forums? Sure, it'd have been better if he hadn't made the original post, but I assume that he is human, and thus, makes mistakes sometimes. In the grand scale of things, one gamer getting overly frothy on a blog is a pretty trivial mistake. And rather than taking the all too common "echo chamber" tactic of doggedly digging in and denying any possbile error, he not only openly recants, but also disavows those who took the post out of context or proportion.

Of course, the debacle could have been avoided by GW actually performing proper QC for the release, so that people weren't being extra aware and sensitive of potential miscasts and similar quality issues.

Hate the sinner and the repentant.

Anaxagoras wrote:I am not happy to pay almost 20$ for a single fig....However, the difference between what I expected to pay (about 12-14$) is not so much that I expect the figure to leap out of the packaging assembled, paint itself and then do my taxes...

I find it interesting that you still bought the model, despite it being roughly 50% more than what you were expecting to pay. For me, the threshold rests around 10-15%. At those levels, I can usually convince myself to buy it - with my tolerance topping out at around +20% expected price... At +50%, I'll usually just turn around and leave.

I am wondering how many of Finecast's defenders are suffering from the concept of escalating commitment... Most of the arguements revolve around:

"It's not so bad"
"Its not worse than what we had to put up with in metal"
"You can fix it easily by doing XXX"
"Its flaws are overstated"
"The flaws will decrease as the line matures"
etc. etc. etc.

To me, these kinds of arguements usually arise whenever I grossly overpay for what turns out to be a poor product (out of necessity, or by impulse) - and I am trying to rationalize / justify the purchase to myself so that I don't feel like a complete idiot. (This usually happens after I buy a "Limited Edition" anything)

keezus wrote:

Anaxagoras wrote:I am not happy to pay almost 20$ for a single fig....However, the difference between what I expected to pay (about 12-14$) is not so much that I expect the figure to leap out of the packaging assembled, paint itself and then do my taxes...

I find it interesting that you still bought the model, despite it being roughly 50% more than what you were expecting to pay. For me, the threshold rests around 10-15%. At those levels, I can usually convince myself to buy it - with my tolerance topping out at around +20% expected price... At +50%, I'll usually just turn around and leave.

I am wondering how many of Finecast's defenders are suffering from the concept of escalating commitment... Most of the arguements revolve around:

"It's not so bad"
"Its not worse than what we had to put up with in metal"
"You can fix it easily by doing XXX"
"Its flaws are overstated"
"The flaws will decrease as the line matures"
etc. etc. etc.

To me, these kinds of arguements usually arise whenever I grossly overpay for what turns out to be a poor product (out of necessity, or by impulse) - and I am trying to rationalize / justify the purchase to myself so that I don't feel like a complete idiot. (This usually happens after I buy a "Limited Edition" anything)

The arguments you mentioned are exactly that, attempted rationalizations and justifications for doing something you cognitively understand as foolish, at least when thinking analytically.

However...

Google the "Sunk Cost Fallacy" Theory and you'll understand this aspect of human nature a little better. People defend this stuff because they're so emotionally and thus financially invested that they don't even want to start thinking about pulling the plug on their hobby, or at least living with the "incomplete" armies they already have. GW knows all about this little psychological tendency, as do many businesses that sell collectables and hobby related materials - they rely on it to sustain sales because it's the very thing that keeps a lot of the people who are "on the fence," buying their product. Maybe some of those here should read up and understand this concept, too. Might learn something about your own motivations. Maybe you don't care. Either way. Your choice. Ignorance is bliss, they say.

keezus wrote:

Anaxagoras wrote:I am not happy to pay almost 20$ for a single fig....However, the difference between what I expected to pay (about 12-14$) is not so much that I expect the figure to leap out of the packaging assembled, paint itself and then do my taxes...

I find it interesting that you still bought the model, despite it being roughly 50% more than what you were expecting to pay. For me, the threshold rests around 10-15%. At those levels, I can usually convince myself to buy it - with my tolerance topping out at around +20% expected price... At +50%, I'll usually just turn around and leave.

I am wondering how many of Finecast's defenders are suffering from the concept of escalating commitment... Most of the arguements revolve around:

"It's not so bad"
"Its not worse than what we had to put up with in metal"
"You can fix it easily by doing XXX"
"Its flaws are overstated"
"The flaws will decrease as the line matures"
etc. etc. etc.

To me, these kinds of arguements usually arise whenever I grossly overpay for what turns out to be a poor product (out of necessity, or by impulse) - and I am trying to rationalize / justify the purchase to myself so that I don't feel like a complete idiot. (This usually happens after I buy a "Limited Edition" anything)

I'm also not happy to pay almost 4$ a gallon for gas, or 200$ a month utilities. I also view my GW hobby as a luxury that I have been happy to have for 20 some years. Don't overthink it, or attempt to explain my habits or divine my feelings...

I have never been "happy" with GW prices, even when I first got into the hobby. It has always been a luxury item. I also don't look at them as "pieces" to play a game...this is a hobby and my hobby takes time and money. I expect easily between 5-50 hours of "use" from this purchase. Between 2-4 hours of painting and assembly and then a "margin" of the hours and hours I will play this army. It is a hobby, and I enjoy my time in the hobby.

I am emotionally invested in the world GW has created, that has been a source of joy for easily 20 years, and the dozens or so armies I have built and played with over those years. I do not see any other game system that combines the quality with the variability of GW, and nothing even comes close to the plastic kits that GW provides. Frankly, had they not made finecast that painboy would have been assembled from plastic components and Greenput.

I don't have to rationalize/justify anything to myself, and certainly not to you. I have the money, I wanted that fig-I bought that fig. Done. I am satisfied with my purchase.

You find that in a lot of things. Like a certain well known twin cylinder bike.
It handles like a pig, the carbs go out of balance. And people pay more because of the name.

But ask a owner and he'll say there great.

1 He's not going to admit how stupid he's been
2 He might want to sell it, so best not to say how crap it is.

BTW it's not american

And good for you, lad. Keep on doing what makes you happy. Nobody has asked you to justify or rationalize anything. (Certainly not me.)

Your entire post is proof that you do it, however, and your pride is your own. If you're happy with where your money goes, good on you. That's for you to decide and nobody else.

However, the fact is, intuitive-emotional thinking is why you spend the large sum of money you do. You cannot change that fact, or argue it, it is what it is. Accept it, as you have, and it shouldn't bother you in the least, as you claim it doesn't. Whether others agree with you or disagree, is, in turn, their decision to make and not yours.

Be that as it may...

Everyone does it, it is the basis for nearly all consumer-related purchases. There certain aren't too many "Spock-types" out there, now are there?

Anaxagoras wrote:

I'm also not happy to pay almost 4$ a gallon for gas, or 200$ a month utilities. I also view my GW hobby as a luxury that I have been happy to have for 20 some years. Don't overthink it, or attempt to explain my habits or divine my feelings...

I have never been "happy" with GW prices, even when I first got into the hobby. It has always been a luxury item. I also don't look at them as "pieces" to play a game...this is a hobby and my hobby takes time and money. I expect easily between 5-50 hours of "use" from this purchase. Between 2-4 hours of painting and assembly and then a "margin" of the hours and hours I will play this army. It is a hobby, and I enjoy my time in the hobby.

I am emotionally invested in the world GW has created, that has been a source of joy for easily 20 years, and the dozens or so armies I have built and played with over those years. I do not see any other game system that combines the quality with the variability of GW, and nothing even comes close to the plastic kits that GW provides. Frankly, had they not made finecast that painboy would have been assembled from plastic components and Greenput.

I don't have to rationalize/justify anything to myself, and certainly not to you. I have the money, I wanted that fig-I bought that fig. Done. I am satisfied with my purchase.

...

Truer words have never been spoken.

But you do rationalize and justify what you do. If you didn't, you wouldn't be posting here about it. I'm not debating the morality of your point of view, but you cannot possibly deny that you rationalize your hobby expense because the very nature of this conversation is the antithesis of that argument.

Thrax wrote:But you do rationalize and justify what you do. If you didn't, you wouldn't be posting here about it. I'm not debating the morality of your point of view, but you cannot possibly deny that you rationalize your hobby expense because the very nature of this conversation is the antithesis of that argument.

Exactly what I was thinking. "Wasn't that entire post a rationalization. . .?"

Thrax wrote:But you do rationalize and justify what you do. If you didn't, you wouldn't be posting here about it. I'm not debating the morality of your point of view, but you cannot possibly deny that you rationalize your hobby expense because the very nature of this conversation is the antithesis of that argument.

I think what Anaxagoras meant (and correct me if I'm wrong Anax) is that there is a subtle difference between analyzing every detail of the purchase and making a rationalization. It's hard, if not impossible, to NOT try to rationalize actions, but to some people it is not about that, or it is so trivial it does not warrant any deep thoughts.

The opponents of Finecost say the proponents are always making excuses and rationalization why the rise in price is acceptable, but are they not also making rationalizations in their own mind why it is unacceptable to them? How can one's rationalization of this be targeted in such a manner?

loki old fart wrote:You find that in a lot of things. Like a certain well known twin cylinder bike.
It handles like a pig, the carbs go out of balance. And people pay more because of the name.

But ask a owner and he'll say there great.

1 He's not going to admit how stupid he's been
2 He might want to sell it, so best not to say how crap it is.

BTW it's not american

Triumph my neighbor is one of those people....god damned hipster..

Vandil wrote:

loki old fart wrote:You find that in a lot of things. Like a certain well known twin cylinder bike.
It handles like a pig, the carbs go out of balance. And people pay more because of the name.

But ask a owner and he'll say there great.

1 He's not going to admit how stupid he's been
2 He might want to sell it, so best not to say how crap it is.

BTW it's not american

Triumph my neighbor is one of those people....god damned hipster..

Nah not a triumph, but I can see your thinking

puma713 wrote:

Thrax wrote:But you do rationalize and justify what you do. If you didn't, you wouldn't be posting here about it. I'm not debating the morality of your point of view, but you cannot possibly deny that you rationalize your hobby expense because the very nature of this conversation is the antithesis of that argument.

Exactly what I was thinking. "Wasn't that entire post a rationalization. . .?"

Think of it this way-to rationalize in this instance implies that the decision was initially irrational, and that some further effort needs to be taken...

Buying a new army when you are three months behind in rent requires some rationalizing. Spending my hobby money on GW figs does not.

Several posts in this thread have dipped into the realm of implying that "people are stupid to be satisfied with finecast."

I wish people would focus on the more useful elements-actually calmly assessing heat resistance, getting a feel for how common/serious/fixable miscasts are, and general discussion about the new product without the need to either paint GW as some cultish horrid entity, or GW supporters as some brainless fanbois.

My hope is to finish painting my painboy and chuck him in a metal can and give a good shake to test paint adhesion. I'll post pics when I do...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Redscare wrote:

Thrax wrote:But you do rationalize and justify what you do. If you didn't, you wouldn't be posting here about it. I'm not debating the morality of your point of view, but you cannot possibly deny that you rationalize your hobby expense because the very nature of this conversation is the antithesis of that argument.

I think what Anaxagoras meant (and correct me if I'm wrong Anax) is that there is a subtle difference between analyzing every detail of the purchase and making a rationalization. It's hard, if not impossible, to NOT try to rationalize actions, but to some people it is not about that, or it is so trivial it does not warrant any deep thoughts.

The opponents of Finecost say the proponents are always making excuses and rationalization why the rise in price is acceptable, but are they not also making rationalizations in their own mind why it is unacceptable to them? How can one's rationalization of this be targeted in such a manner?

Pretty close-see my post above.

Anaxagoras wrote:]
I wish people would focus on the more useful elements-actually calmly assessing heat resistance, getting a feel for how common/serious/fixable miscasts are, and general discussion about the new product without the need to either paint GW as some cultish horrid entity, or GW supporters as some brainless fanbois.

Just because people have posted heatedly doesn't mean that they haven't calmly assessed their thoughts or purchases. The problem (and the reason that people are getting aggravated) is that many have focused on positive things - but the negatives have outweighed them. They have evaluated the fact that they are paying more for a product that is in some ways inferior. And the ways that it has been advertised as being superior are not worth the exaggerated costs. Is the super-fine detail (which has been reviewed thus far as "meh, it's okay") worth not only the extra money that you're paying, but also the repair-work that you have to do, the lack of heat resistance and the roll-of-the-dice chance that you may have to return your piece, thus costing you more time, gas and stress?

You'd think if something were causing you those things, that it would be something that was cheaper, something that was poorly-made, something that was not somehow supposed to revolutionize the hobby. Maybe that is what people are mad about, rather than just trying to paint GW in some sort of antogonistic light.

OK, at 54 pages in counting, this thread has almost reached its conclusion.

Please remember to stay on topic, stay polite...

This is the only public warning that will be posted.

After this, it will be Official Warnings and possibly Suspensions.

Thanks!

Here a comment by someone not known for hyperbole or hysteria, the Warseer mod Wintermute:

Wintermute wrote:

Inquisitor Kallus wrote:Interesting question. I wonder if its as bad as the internet makes it out to be. My 'real life' friends/gamers i've only heard one complaint from

Based on my personal experience, its worse. I visited a GW store to take a look at the Finecast minis and considered each an every blister I looked at to be unsaleable.
(...)
I'll concede on the health issues but I don't think the Finecast minis are as advertised by GW. Yes GW will replace bad minis (which, to their credit, they have always done) but the quality of the Finecast minis is unacceptable, so much so I would not and will not buy them based on personal experience (see above) and the increasing tide of complaints now surfacing.
(...)
At what point will GW be forced to carry out a product recall as a result of a complaint to Trading Standards?

Thrax wrote:..."Sunk Cost Fallacy"...

The saying "In for a penny, in for a pound" is the direct result of this particularly human thought process. The self imposed notion that past investment justify the decision to continue investment even when rational thought tells you otherwise. How many people say: "GW's prices are now too high, so I will just finish this (unit, army, armies)..."?-a good number, but if it truely were too high the rational choice would be not to continue putting money into something that has proven time and time again to get only more expensive over time.

To put it another way, if until now you never invested time, energy, and money into 40k or WHFB would you still want to spend those thousands of dollars?-If you could cash out and get all your money back, instead of spending another cent, would you?

It is a standard principle of accounting too.

And the source of the apothegm, "Never throw good money after bad".

The same principle applies in warfare. You should only reinforce and support successful attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It is also a principle of good betting. The money in the pot isn't yours any more. It has been spent.

Putting together my finecast Death Jester and Shadow Seer for a my FLGS GW painting comp

I'm finding the detail is better and very, very crisp,

but the material is very brittle and is easy to chip; I had to perform quite a few repairs with green stuff when I was over eagre with the scalpal. Also having to bend a miscast shuriken cannon wasn't very entertaining.




It is much less forgiving than metal, that's for sure

Thrax wrote:But you do rationalize and justify what you do. If you didn't, you wouldn't be posting here about it. I'm not debating the morality of your point of view, but you cannot possibly deny that you rationalize your hobby expense because the very nature of this conversation is the antithesis of that argument.

"Shouldn't you be out on a ledge somewhere?"

edit: hit submit too soon. I meant to also complement on you on being very thought-provoking. More thought-provoking than I wanted from a message board during my downtime from school and work, but nonetheless interesting.

Was not able to open and go thru them, but I finally saw the Finecast stuff in the blisters at the FLGS. I could only really find miscasts on a single fig, an Etheral that was missing a small corner of his headdress and part of his pointing hand. The Zoanthrope had a TON of flash, as in the frame was pretty much a solid sheet of tissue paper thin resin. Otherwise I was able to observe problems with any of the figs inside the packs.

We got out a chunk of sprue and were playing with it with a heat gun and car dash, and it does make me nervous how easily it gets soft, but that was mostly anecdotal playing with and not hard testing of what temperatures causes problems. I think that problem there is what will keep me from getting Any finecast, as I often have armies stored in my car or non-air conditioned house.

Aduro wrote:
We got out a chunk of sprue and were playing with it with a heat gun and car dash, and it does make me nervous how easily it gets soft, but that was mostly anecdotal playing with and not hard testing of what temperatures causes problems. I think that problem there is what will keep me from getting Any finecast, as I often have armies stored in my car or non-air conditioned house.

I went to three GW stores before choosing a Shadowseer that I liked. It pays to look at each blister if you can, but be wary of the details you cannot see through the packaging.

Alpharius wrote:OK, at 54 pages in counting, this thread has almost reached its conclusion.

Please remember to stay on topic, stay polite...

This is the only public warning that will be posted.

After this, it will be Official Warnings and possibly Suspensions.

Thanks!

Does it really count if its not in RED?

On Topic: I have challeneged my local GW store to provide me with a flawless Finecast Canis Wolfborn...

I wonder how many kits they will be required to open in order to rise to the challenge.

AvatarForm wrote:

Alpharius wrote:OK, at 54 pages in counting, this thread has almost reached its conclusion.

Please remember to stay on topic, stay polite...

This is the only public warning that will be posted.

After this, it will be Official Warnings and possibly Suspensions.

Thanks!

Does it really count if its not in RED?

On Topic: I have challeneged my local GW store to provide me with a flawless Finecast Canis Wolfborn...

I wonder how many kits they will be required to open in order to rise to the challenge.

I cant imagine they'll go through with that when they have to send them to be repackaged xD

Was speaking to the manager of a near by GW and way he summed it up was " embaresd " and " rushed out " .

GW FLGS had Canis Wolfborn in the display to compare between metal and finecast, unpainted.

The detail was better on the finecast one, particularly the nose. Visibly crisper.



They'd already cleaned up both though, which I think is fair. I didn't see any imperfections on either.

severedblue wrote:GW FLGS had Canis Wolfborn in the display to compare between metal and finecast, unpainted.

The detail was better on the finecast one, particularly the nose. Visibly crisper.



They'd already cleaned up both though, which I think is fair. I didn't see any imperfections on either.

Gah! I wish people would stop repeating this nonsense!

The only way to accurately and fairly compare detail between the two is to prime both, probably in a grey or white colour. That reduces the differences that occur due to specular reflection. You cannot put both models side by side and make a fair comparison on detail because of the way that metal reflects light and resin doesn't.

The only pictures that have been posted thus far (on Dakka anyway) that show both minis side by side and primed the same way show no difference in detail whatsoever. The extra detail gumph that has been put out by GW is simply a PR stunt to help justify the increase in cost quite frankly.

See this thread and post:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/372163.page#2881499

If you ignore the pitting on the metal mini and the bubbles on the resin mini, detail wise, there isn't much to separate these two. I would even go as far as to suggest if you had two minis, one resin, one metal, free from casting imperfections and primed them the same and put them side by side, I think anyone would be hard pressed to tell them apart.

filbert wrote:
Gah! I wish people would stop repeating this nonsense!

The only way to accurately and fairly compare detail between the two is to prime both, probably in a grey or white colour. That reduces the differences that occur due to specular reflection. You cannot put both models side by side and make a fair comparison on detail because of the way that metal reflects light and resin doesn't.

Thank you, I learned something today.

My rule always is you can tell the difference if you can feel it with your thumbnail. In a display case it would be visual so point taken. I will paint up my two finecast models and see how they compare after painting.

filbert wrote:

severedblue wrote:GW FLGS had Canis Wolfborn in the display to compare between metal and finecast, unpainted.

The detail was better on the finecast one, particularly the nose. Visibly crisper.



They'd already cleaned up both though, which I think is fair. I didn't see any imperfections on either.

Gah! I wish people would stop repeating this nonsense!

The only way to accurately and fairly compare detail between the two is to prime both, probably in a grey or white colour. That reduces the differences that occur due to specular reflection. You cannot put both models side by side and make a fair comparison on detail because of the way that metal reflects light and resin doesn't.

The only pictures that have been posted thus far (on Dakka anyway) that show both minis side by side and primed the same way show no difference in detail whatsoever. The extra detail gumph that has been put out by GW is simply a PR stunt to help justify the increase in cost quite frankly.

See this thread and post:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/372163.page#2881499

If you ignore the pitting on the metal mini and the bubbles on the resin mini, detail wise, there isn't much to separate these two. I would even go as far as to suggest if you had two minis, one resin, one metal, free from casting imperfections and primed them the same and put them side by side, I think anyone would be hard pressed to tell them apart.

I know that I have a lot easier time painting and converting and playing with a lightweight plastic/resin figure than a heavy tin figure. Are you going to tell me also that's "nonsense?" I'm not "repeating it" from anywhere.

ImperialTard wrote:

I know that I have a lot easier time painting and converting and playing with a lightweight plastic/resin figure than a heavy tin figure. Are you going to tell me also that's "nonsense?" I'm not "repeating it" from anywhere.

What's that got to do with anything? I was responding directly to the comments that severedblue made in regards to comparing detail, hence why I quoted what he posted. You can use the quote function as a handy way of highlighting that you are addressing a particular poster, post or comment you know

Good for you that you find resin easier to work with. I'm sure it is. However, there is an awful lot of rumour, supposition and misinformation floating about regarding the metal/resin switch and it needs to be curtailed.

AvatarForm wrote:

Alpharius wrote:OK, at 54 pages in counting, this thread has almost reached its conclusion.

Please remember to stay on topic, stay polite...

This is the only public warning that will be posted.

After this, it will be Official Warnings and possibly Suspensions.

Thanks!

Does it really count if its not in RED?

On Topic: I have challeneged my local GW store to provide me with a flawless Finecast Canis Wolfborn...

I wonder how many kits they will be required to open in order to rise to the challenge.

Yes.

It would be difficult to argue that that post was anything but a clear moderation type post.
Some of us don't use red.

ImperialTard wrote:I know that I have a lot easier time painting and converting and playing with a lightweight plastic/resin figure than a heavy tin figure. Are you going to tell me also that's "nonsense?" I'm not "repeating it" from anywhere.

No that's not nonsense it's your own opinion and also nothing to do with the level of details on the model. Also take into account there are people that liked working with metal miniatures so a price increase for a material they don't like working with as much is a tough one to take ^^

CunningB wrote:

ImperialTard wrote:I know that I have a lot easier time painting and converting and playing with a lightweight plastic/resin figure than a heavy tin figure. Are you going to tell me also that's "nonsense?" I'm not "repeating it" from anywhere.

No that's not nonsense it's your own opinion and also nothing to do with the level of details on the model. Also take into account there are people that liked working with metal miniatures so a price increase for a material they don't like working with as much is a tough one to take ^^

Really? Why? Those metal models will be around forever, at less than retail. Most are still on shelves right now, or in close out bins at some stores.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Thrax wrote:But you do rationalize and justify what you do. If you didn't, you wouldn't be posting here about it. I'm not debating the morality of your point of view, but you cannot possibly deny that you rationalize your hobby expense because the very nature of this conversation is the antithesis of that argument.

Of course. If we didn't rationalize our hobbies, we wouldn't have any of them. You don't need toy soldiers, so why pay 10 bucks or 1 buck each, or even 1 cent?

or, you could make an arguement that the cost of the toy soldier is irrelevant to how much we have an inbred psycological need to to drink some beer with our mates while getting away from the women. Tin men help with that, and so any price you pay for them is cheap.)

Not at my store, lol...if they were I'd just buy the metal incubi and DE characters.

Sidstyler wrote:Not at my store, lol...if they were I'd just buy the metal incubi and DE characters.

Need about 30 metal incubi?) Someone just traded in his WOC army. His last project was to buy 30 or so Incubi to proxy as Slanesh Warriors with great weapons. Primed them on metal bases, and then switched armies. I'm dumping them to ebay soon.

Sadly, could have used them 6 weeks ago when painting 80 of these:

http://www.teamsauron.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=123323125

mikhaila wrote:

Sadly, could have used them 6 weeks ago when painting 80 of these:

http://www.teamsauron.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=123323125

We'll go ahead and post your needs in the GW Forums for you, free of charge.

I think whether you like them or not, what it really comes down to is that GW should have been a bit more cautious in bringing in the Finecast line. They did too much too quickly and without enough experiance with this new material. They had bad timing with the release bringing them in as they were raising prices, giving people the false impressions that the higher price was directly related to the change in material.

In retrospect GW should have taken it more slowly, initially releasing only the one or two models from each army that best benefit from this new process. That way when the others eventually got released it would be a natural progression and less abrupt.

I can't help but feel this would have been better served if GW had used this launch to release a direct only miniature of some sort "celebrating" this and really showing the advantages.

Does anyone know if GW plans with the change to Finecast to carry that over to Gamesday miniatures and direct order minis?

filbert wrote:

See this thread and post:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/372163.page#2881499

If you ignore the pitting on the metal mini and the bubbles on the resin mini, detail wise, there isn't much to separate these two. I would even go as far as to suggest if you had two minis, one resin, one metal, free from casting imperfections and primed them the same and put them side by side, I think anyone would be hard pressed to tell them apart.

Honestly the detail on all the skulls looks better on the Finecast mini.

nectarprime wrote:

filbert wrote:

See this thread and post:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/372163.page#2881499

If you ignore the pitting on the metal mini and the bubbles on the resin mini, detail wise, there isn't much to separate these two. I would even go as far as to suggest if you had two minis, one resin, one metal, free from casting imperfections and primed them the same and put them side by side, I think anyone would be hard pressed to tell them apart.

Honestly the detail on all the skulls looks better on the Finecast mini.

I agree one hundred percent.


I'm not going to make a scene about it but the Finecast models, in my opinion, have sharper details. The biggest difference I see on Finecast models are any models with blade weapons. These blades are thinner and more realistic looking than their metal counterparts.

The entire argument about sharper detail is really one of personal preference. Therefore, a claim that Finecast models posess a level of sharper detail than their metal counterparts cannot be dismissed.

Vandil wrote:Late to the party but it's more the better in my opinion. I ordered a big mek with SAG, the metal version was both unbalanced and easily broken with a ton of weight on one connection point. I have to order direct from GW no store local, or at least not within a reasonable drive.

First reaction on opening it in my dark bedroom, not bad... Then I looked at it more closely and hello customer service....

God thats bad, If your not happy with it (I guess so) take it back to the shop (If something like that I bought came in that condtion I would do that).

There was a price increase coming any way, having it at the same time as the finecast release was a bad idea.

Having bought the metal and finecast astorath the grim, I am much more please with the finecast, because of the face detail, armor ridge detail, weight of the model due to the complex pose, and the axe head staying on without pinning.

Also picked up comissar yarick and the face detail appears much better.

Both models without primer take the foundation paints without issues, and I have not had any wear issues with them sitting in a foam case, or while finishing them.

brother_zach wrote:

The entire argument about sharper detail is really one of personal preference. Therefore, a claim that Finecast models posess a level of sharper detail than their metal counterparts cannot be dismissed.

Actually we can. In this thread or another someone posted up side by side models with primer. I couldnt tell the difference. Nor could many others. The details are NOT that much sharper, if they are at all.

carmachu wrote:

brother_zach wrote:

The entire argument about sharper detail is really one of personal preference. Therefore, a claim that Finecast models posess a level of sharper detail than their metal counterparts cannot be dismissed.

Actually we can. In this thread or another someone posted up side by side models with primer. I couldnt tell the difference. Nor could many others. The details are NOT that much sharper, if they are at all.

Give me less sharp details for a model that won't melt/come with holes and broken pieces/be more expensive please.

carmachu wrote:

brother_zach wrote:

The entire argument about sharper detail is really one of personal preference. Therefore, a claim that Finecast models posess a level of sharper detail than their metal counterparts cannot be dismissed.

Actually we can. In this thread or another someone posted up side by side models with primer. I couldnt tell the difference. Nor could many others. The details are NOT that much sharper, if they are at all.

Yeah I saw the photos, I also saw sharper details on the Finecast Model, as did other users.

Is it enough to merit Finecast as a gift from the Gods?

Regardless on the medium they were cast in, we would have paid nearly the same price for a metal model with the anual price increase.

brother_zach wrote:

nectarprime wrote:

filbert wrote:

See this thread and post:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/372163.page#2881499

If you ignore the pitting on the metal mini and the bubbles on the resin mini, detail wise, there isn't much to separate these two. I would even go as far as to suggest if you had two minis, one resin, one metal, free from casting imperfections and primed them the same and put them side by side, I think anyone would be hard pressed to tell them apart.

Honestly the detail on all the skulls looks better on the Finecast mini.

I agree one hundred percent.


I'm not going to make a scene about it but the Finecast models, in my opinion, have sharper details. The biggest difference I see on Finecast models are any models with blade weapons. These blades are thinner and more realistic looking than their metal counterparts.

The max blade thickness is restricted by the master and then the mold itself. If the Finecast material holds detail without shrinkage the finecast sword should be technically thicker than the metal sword from the same master due to metal shrinkage as it cools. That's the entire reason Finecast is supposed to have sharper detail to begin with. I can see how the detail could be sharper but 1% shrinkage on a 28mm model is like .1mm on each side over the entire length of the model. 1% on something as small as a skull and you'd need a machinist digital caliper to even register the difference.


I'm starting to believe they're busy playing the triple pressure dance with the new mold and material.

Vandil wrote:

brother_zach wrote:

nectarprime wrote:

filbert wrote:

See this thread and post:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/372163.page#2881499

If you ignore the pitting on the metal mini and the bubbles on the resin mini, detail wise, there isn't much to separate these two. I would even go as far as to suggest if you had two minis, one resin, one metal, free from casting imperfections and primed them the same and put them side by side, I think anyone would be hard pressed to tell them apart.

Honestly the detail on all the skulls looks better on the Finecast mini.

I agree one hundred percent.


I'm not going to make a scene about it but the Finecast models, in my opinion, have sharper details. The biggest difference I see on Finecast models are any models with blade weapons. These blades are thinner and more realistic looking than their metal counterparts.

The max blade thickness is restricted by the master and then the mold itself. If the Finecast material holds detail without shrinkage the finecast sword should be technically thicker than the metal sword from the same master due to metal shrinkage as it cools. That's the entire reason Finecast is supposed to have sharper detail to begin with. I can see how the detail could be sharper but 1% shrinkage on a 28mm model is like .1mm on each side over the entire length of the model. 1% on something as small as a skull and you'd need a machinist digital caliper to even register the difference.


I'm starting to believe they're busy playing the triple pressure dance with the new mold and material.

Without knowing exactly what material Finecast is, it's impossible for us to know the shrinkage per inch.

"Thicker" probaly isn't the best word for what I'm talking about.

I've got alot of models that have had some funky looking blades on them. They barely had an edge on them and pretty much resembled a chunk of metal. I cant say that I have had the same experience with finecast though, as I haven't had the ammount of time with this new resin as I have with metal.

nectarprime wrote:
Without knowing exactly what material Finecast is, it's impossible for us to know the shrinkage per inch.

Yes admittedly a guess on my part when I said zero and 1%. Bismuth expands when it cools, when added to lead+tin alloys it can counter act shrinkage. The exact makeup of the materials are probably locked in the same safe as KFC's 11 secret spices. 1.13% is what I would account for as shrinkage casting 100% lead, and .9% casting a hardened tin, lead, arsenic, and antimony wheel weight alloy. Granted my lead based alloy casting experience is strictly in casting bullets which aren't exactly detailed.

If there is shrinkage and it's equal % you'd see the most shrinkage on the largest proportions of the blade, Length, Depth, then Width.

filbert wrote:

severedblue wrote:GW FLGS had Canis Wolfborn in the display to compare between metal and finecast, unpainted.

The detail was better on the finecast one, particularly the nose. Visibly crisper.



They'd already cleaned up both though, which I think is fair. I didn't see any imperfections on either.

Gah! I wish people would stop repeating this nonsense!

The only way to accurately and fairly compare detail between the two is to prime both, probably in a grey or white colour. That reduces the differences that occur due to specular reflection. You cannot put both models side by side and make a fair comparison on detail because of the way that metal reflects light and resin doesn't.

The only pictures that have been posted thus far (on Dakka anyway) that show both minis side by side and primed the same way show no difference in detail whatsoever. The extra detail gumph that has been put out by GW is simply a PR stunt to help justify the increase in cost quite frankly.

See this thread and post:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/372163.page#2881499

If you ignore the pitting on the metal mini and the bubbles on the resin mini, detail wise, there isn't much to separate these two. I would even go as far as to suggest if you had two minis, one resin, one metal, free from casting imperfections and primed them the same and put them side by side, I think anyone would be hard pressed to tell them apart.

I have now started painting my Finecast Painboy....and have already painted a metal version of the same fig...

The details are more sharp and pronounced on the finecast.

Is it a huge difference? No. But there is a finer level of detail in some spots.

The one "primed" comparison I saw looked like it had been hosed in primer...

So is it true you can just paint these out of the box after washing them, has anyone tried this or are people still using primer?

I think the general consensus is that you want to wash Finecast before priming. I always wash everything before priming.

Just to add to the overall discussion about the quality of the Finecast sculpts, I recently bought a metal Urien Rakarth (new model) that was mispacked with two of the same arm sprues. I called GW customer service, and they sent out a Finecast replacement, no problem.

I got the Finecast today in the mail:
The good:
1) 2 days in transit in 95-100 degree weather and it didn't turn to a pile of goo, no warping, bending, or problems at all.
2) The detail is very sharp, with no visible air bubbles, miscasts, or other defects (I have not opened the blister yet)
3) GW customer service

The neutral:
1) There is a thin membrane of resin over about 40% of the sprue, which connects all the extra arms and attachments. It is almost see-through. Until I take the model out and begin cleaning, I won't know if that membrane will obscure detail or be a problem in cleanup (I'm a 14 year GW modeller, so experienced). This is something I've also seen with FW purity seal and skull sprues.

The bad: Nothing yet.

I'm cautiously optimistic, and would not have otherwise bought Finecast. I still think the higher prices will keep me from buying more. However, after trying to glue the really fine Urien arms on the metal model, this should be a breeze to assemble (after clean-up). If I get motivated, I'll start a thread in the hobby section to document the clean up.

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned in the battle of opinions over "Crisper Detail vs. "No Difference in Detail" between resin and metal is the application, consistency and settling of the primer.

Yes, in a photograph, and even to the eye, differences in light refraction off of materials can give a skewed perception.

However, that light distortion isn't dramatic or universal enough to make the blanket statement that there is no difference in detail.

In my own comparisons across several models, the resin does indeed seem to retain original detail better. Look in recessed areas of models where the light glare is lessened. Look around the eyes, along the edges of runes or plates of armour, between fingers.

Well, when you apply primer to the models in a side-by-side comparison, the primer acts to "level the playing field". Primer coats across the surface and, on a metal model with "softer" edges, coats them more evenly. A resin model, with "harder" edges has, by nature of the material, more pronounced and angular planes of intersection. The sprayed primer will not coat those areas as evenly. It either misses them, coating with only a "mist" or, if the person spraying is trying to entirely cover the surfaces (and to achieve "equal" coverage to a metal miniature) more primer is going to settle into the intersecting plane and "soften" the transition.

Think of the primer as snow: with resin, it acts as snow against a wall (90 degrees) and builds up softening detail. With metal, it's more like snow against an asphalt curb (60 degrees) that covers it more evenly and "drift" to adjacent surfaces rather than be trapped against them. I know, not a perfect analogy but I hope you can see what I'm getting at.

From my perspective and experience, resin is a material that provides and retains detail that metal cannot. Adding primer to it, however, reduces some of the inherent detail benefits and compromises the surface to make it look more like a metal cast.

Now, the next question is, can we forego the priming step on these FineCast miniatures ? At $15+ a can, I don't think GW would steer us away from that but I'm going to give it a shot.

Well, that's my take on the "Detail Discussion", FWIW.

As far as my opinion of FineCast ... the jury is still out. I've seen the good, the bad and the ugly. I haven't bought one yet since the Grey Knight character Draigo was sold out at my FLGS. I'll get it when it's in stock but I'll inspect it like a drill sergeant before laying out the $23 bucks for it.

I was at Warhammer World on Monday and had a chat with a couple of the store staff about the new range. As always I take what they say with a pinch of salt, but the general feeling is that they are going to phase out metals and replace them with Finecast as long as the response is positive enough.

I had a good nose at the miniatures and have a list of what I felt were the main good and bad points.

GOOD:
1/ They are really light, so lugging around your collection will no longer give you as much arm ache
2/ They are relitively hard wearing, if droped on the floor chances are they will not fall appart, bend, shatter or otherwise become unusable
3/ As the material is nice and light there is no need for pinning joints even on large models

BAD:
1/ I really didn't feel that the detail was any different.
2/ There is a crap ton of flash, given the brittle nature of the resin it is likely that a great deal of detail will also be scraped off when removing all the crap
3/ They feel cheap and nasty. No weight and bendy arms and weapons make them feel like they came out of a cereal box

Personaly I have to say I can't stand them. I think they are cheap and nasty and the amount of cleaning up required puts me off.

squilverine wrote:Personaly I have to say I can't stand them. I think they are cheap and nasty and the amount of cleaning up required puts me off.

I don't understand the metal hate. It's not like metal is *that* difficult to work with is it? With people complaining that it takes a bit more rubbing down to clean up than plastic and that it's such an inconvenience to pin something, oh the horror.

Howard A Treesong wrote: It's not like metal is *that* difficult to work with is it?

For just assembling them as is? No, not especially. For converting? Plastic or resin is so much more convenient.

brother_zach wrote:

Yeah I saw the photos, I also saw sharper details on the Finecast Model, as did other users.

Is it enough to merit Finecast as a gift from the Gods?

Regardless on the medium they were cast in, we would have paid nearly the same price for a metal model with the anual price increase.

Not onced primed. They were the same.

So what if the price would have gone up. Metal is superior to the soft stuff.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

squilverine wrote:Personaly I have to say I can't stand them. I think they are cheap and nasty and the amount of cleaning up required puts me off.

I don't understand the metal hate. It's not like metal is *that* difficult to work with is it? With people complaining that it takes a bit more rubbing down to clean up than plastic and that it's such an inconvenience to pin something, oh the horror.

No metal hate here, I love metal figures, the weight of them certainly gives the feeling of quality. My comment was directed at the new resin miniatures. Both plastic and metals have their pro's and cons. I would say that there is more cleaning up required on plastics, however it is harder to remove lines and tags on metals so the effort required probably evens out.

My main bugbear with the new Finecast stuff is that the models themselves are made from a very delicate material and the slightest slip will result in you removing a lot of the extra detailing. Plastics and certainly metals are much more forgiving.

carmachu wrote:

brother_zach wrote:

Yeah I saw the photos, I also saw sharper details on the Finecast Model, as did other users.

Is it enough to merit Finecast as a gift from the Gods?

Regardless on the medium they were cast in, we would have paid nearly the same price for a metal model with the anual price increase.

Not onced primed. They were the same.

So what if the price would have gone up. Metal is superior to the soft stuff.

Look at the link listed above. Both models are primed and there is a noticeable difference between the detail on the models.

insaniak wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote: It's not like metal is *that* difficult to work with is it?

For just assembling them as is? No, not especially. For converting? Plastic or resin is so much more convenient.

PLastic yes. Resin? Not so much.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Look at the link listed above. Both models are primed and there is a noticeable difference between the detail on the models.

Seen the link. No there isnt much difference.

That comparison thread's photos are of uneven quality, the miniatures featured therein, not so much - aside from the fineco$t bubble that took off his nose. The "metal" model's photos are out of focus, whether intention or not, it does have the general effect of making the fineco$t model's details "pop" out a bit more. Also, there is some lightning variation as well. There are rough surfaces all over those two models, the biggest, most noticeable is on the "metal" model's cape, but the face of the fineco$t model is horrid as well. Also, likely due to the mold, there are similar bubbles and flash on both models, too. Check the folds in the cape, for example, and the holes in the purity seal paper.

I think one of the main problems with the release was that GW was so secretive with the change over (that they now say they had been working on for 2 years) up until 3-4 months ago only a handful of people outside the development team knew anything about it.

So there was zero outside input into things like:
Why are there 50 injection ports per sprue?
Will it warp in heat?
Is there a better method than using silicon molds which seem to disintegrate at an alarming rate, leaving every model from that mold with the same defect from that point on... etc.

They made out in WD that the secrecy was a virtue.

It was not.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

squilverine wrote:Personaly I have to say I can't stand them. I think they are cheap and nasty and the amount of cleaning up required puts me off.

I don't understand the metal hate. It's not like metal is *that* difficult to work with is it? With people complaining that it takes a bit more rubbing down to clean up than plastic and that it's such an inconvenience to pin something, oh the horror.

Multi-part metal assemblies *are not* as durable as bonded plastic or resin parts. This is empirical fact based on the nature of the joins. The only advantage well-made metal models have over well-made resin models is the heft, which some people enjoy, however quaint. Resin is easier to cut, easier to glue, bonds better, holds paint better, and typically cleans up faster.

Prometheum5 wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:

squilverine wrote:Personaly I have to say I can't stand them. I think they are cheap and nasty and the amount of cleaning up required puts me off.

I don't understand the metal hate. It's not like metal is *that* difficult to work with is it? With people complaining that it takes a bit more rubbing down to clean up than plastic and that it's such an inconvenience to pin something, oh the horror.

Multi-part metal assemblies *are not* as durable as bonded plastic or resin parts. This is empirical fact based on the nature of the joins. The only advantage well-made metal models have over well-made resin models is the heft, which some people enjoy, however quaint. Resin is easier to cut, easier to glue, bonds better, holds paint better, and typically cleans up faster.

First, i dont agree with the cleans up faster , by far thats not the case.

Its as if you ignored the whole miscast , air bubble , warping issue , and just based the whole finecast product on their "what should have been"

carmachu wrote:

brother_zach wrote:

Yeah I saw the photos, I also saw sharper details on the Finecast Model, as did other users.

Is it enough to merit Finecast as a gift from the Gods?

Regardless on the medium they were cast in, we would have paid nearly the same price for a metal model with the anual price increase.

Not onced primed. They were the same.

So what if the price would have gone up. Metal is superior to the soft stuff.

Both parts of that statement are personal opinions.

Having had several metal models that were later made in finecast, I can attest to seeing a difference in detail. That doesen't mean that it's concrete throught though.

Prometheum5 wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:

squilverine wrote:Personaly I have to say I can't stand them. I think they are cheap and nasty and the amount of cleaning up required puts me off.

I don't understand the metal hate. It's not like metal is *that* difficult to work with is it? With people complaining that it takes a bit more rubbing down to clean up than plastic and that it's such an inconvenience to pin something, oh the horror.

Multi-part metal assemblies *are not* as durable as bonded plastic or resin parts. This is empirical fact based on the nature of the joins. The only advantage well-made metal models have over well-made resin models is the heft, which some people enjoy, however quaint. Resin is easier to cut, easier to glue, bonds better, holds paint better, and typically cleans up faster.

I would say this is mostly true in a sense. However, highly skilled veteran hobbyists can make any metal model rock solid if they put the time into it and the proper combination of pinning, green stuff, and glue. I would agree, resin and plastic are less likely to break at a join in say, a short fall from the table edge, however I have never had a metal sword snap in two on me, and cannot even begin to tell you how many of my DKoK swords and bayonets have broken over the years from things as simple as removing them from the case, etc.

For the average hobbyist, plastic is the ideal medium, in my opinion. It offers the best of both worlds, with an ideal balance of durability and detail. Resin is more on the delicate side of the isle, and metal on the durable (as a material) - but in the case of awkward, multipart metal kits, you are right in a sense, the metal can be tougher for the average person to keep together. For the record, i have a War Hydra that I spent a good deal of time on properly pinning, greenstuffing, and gluing, and it took a fall from a table edge once and miraculously the only thing that happened was one of the heads became slightly wobbly, which I fixed with, you guessed it, a fresh round of green stuff and glue (original pin was still solidly in place). After a little paint you can't even tell it ever fell. Obviously YMMV, if it had landed differently, it could have been a different story. But if done right, metal can be plenty durable enough at the assembly points. Nothing is going to withstand serious punishment no matter the material used None of these models would survive being hurled out of a moving car at 60 mph, for example. If my War Hydra were resin, however, I'd be much more concerned about the various spikes breaking, etc, and would be worried a head or two would snap off in the middle of the neck with little fragments being lost entirely if it hit the floor. With metal, the parts may have come apart at the join, but at least it was at the join and a natural fix (for me at least), rather than in some middle area where it could potentially shatter somewhat.

Similarly, I have a set of metal Blood Knights that have never, and I mean never come loose. I pinned/greenstuffed them so well when people pick them up they often ask me if they are one-piece "chunk of metal" models. It all comes down to hobbyist skill and the quality of the model's joins. Some models are horrible for this, I understand, and there is just nothing much you can do about it. A good friend of mine assembled his hierophant bio-titan and the resin legs began to buckle because there was so much weight on the tips of the claws. He eventually had to drill a huge hole through each leg and put some pretty seriously thick brass rod through them and run it half way up each leg almost. It was very stressful watching him go through this because of the cost of the model and how delicate the resin was - everyone in the room was waiting for things to snap. Luckily, because he took it slow (the better part of a day to do it), things worked out for him with only mild "powdering" of the resin near the entry points of the rods. The point here is, resin isn't ideal in every case, and neither is metal - but for smaller blister packed characters, I think metal was just fine and barring a pin-job or two, wouldn't have needed a resin replacement. I can see resin being better for SOME models, however, just not the majority. And looking at all these comparison photos, I can honestly say with conviction that the fineco$t stuff is not superior at all, it's about the same, really, with a tendency for more noticeable defects happening in faces, etc than I or those in my gaming groups, were used to seeing.

My two cents. Not everyone will agree, I understand this, but I know some of the vets out there know where I am coming from and will see the point I am making.

Prometheum5 wrote:

Multi-part metal assemblies *are not* as durable as bonded plastic or resin parts. This is empirical fact based on the nature of the joins.

Then your using the wrong glue. I have old second edition lictors I glued in the back claws, and held forever, and I could swing them on my finger and they held just fine without breaking....

carmachu wrote:

Prometheum5 wrote:

Multi-part metal assemblies *are not* as durable as bonded plastic or resin parts. This is empirical fact based on the nature of the joins.

Then your using the wrong glue. I have old second edition lictors I glued in the back claws, and held forever, and I could swing them on my finger and they held just fine without breaking....

Im agreeing with him , because all the old miniatures given to me are bonded by this mysterious type of glue ( to the point that the metal broke before i can separate the arm from body ) , and its certainly not the same super glue we use now.

Im guessing its some sort of epoxy?

Indeed, the type of glue used has a HUGE impact on the quality of a metal model's assembly. I once saw a kid trying to build an old metal space marine landspeeder with PLASTIC glue and the thing actually held together....for a few seconds...before it sort of slipped apart. I handed him whatever the glue I was using was at the time, and we spritzed on some zip-kicker and the thing held together fine for his game later that day.

I've glued metal models together with clag... it works as long as you dont try to pull it apart.

Most people now-a-days dont know how to use superglue and end up putting big globs of it on stuff which results in a less than ideal bond...

I'm yet to try out the finecast stuff, but i suspect that it will be less prone to breakage at glued points because of the less long term stress on the bond due to weight.

Also keep in mind your 'older models that never break' were probably put together with a different forumla of glue that, shy of using epoxy resin, you wont get a similar bond quality from current day glues.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:I think one of the main problems with the release was that GW was so secretive with the change over (that they now say they had been working on for 2 years) up until 3-4 months ago only a handful of people outside the development team knew anything about it.
(...)
They made out in WD that the secrecy was a virtue.
It was not.

Funny thing is, they continue the secrecy about Finecast products:
All Finecast releases for this month are kept secret on the Newsposter for all stores.
All Finecast releases for this month are kept secret on the store's preorder form.
That includes the complete Tomb King June release, Wracks, Grotesques and Haemucnuli.
Like they don't want anyone to know about Finecast products, so noone buys them.
Another instance of GW's famous anti-marketing to artificially lower the sales of their products.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:

Alpharius wrote:OK, at 54 pages in counting, this thread has almost reached its conclusion.

Please remember to stay on topic, stay polite...

This is the only public warning that will be posted.

After this, it will be Official Warnings and possibly Suspensions.

Thanks!

Does it really count if its not in RED?

On Topic: I have challeneged my local GW store to provide me with a flawless Finecast Canis Wolfborn...

I wonder how many kits they will be required to open in order to rise to the challenge.

Yes.

It would be difficult to argue that that post was anything but a clear moderation type post.
Some of us don't use red.

I think somebody missed the part where I began my post with a joke...

Cruentus wrote: The good: 3) GW customer service

Hmmm.... I assume you did not have to mail the metal one back first? GW CS made me mail in all the boxes with the miscast resin figures before they shipped out replacements (the guy on the phone practically implied that I am trying to cheat them out of a bunch of miniatures.) I guess the more you buy, the more junk your get, the worse GW CS will treat you.

Back on topic: how are the thin arms and syringes? I am worried that they will just twist or snap off. I have 2 of resin Urien on order to use as Humunculi.

Thrax wrote:
I would say this is mostly true in a sense. However, highly skilled veteran hobbyists can make any metal model rock solid if they put the time into it and the proper combination of pinning, green stuff, and glue. I would agree, resin and plastic are less likely to break at a join in say, a short fall from the table edge, however I have never had a metal sword snap in two on me, and cannot even begin to tell you how many of my DKoK swords and bayonets have broken over the years from things as simple as removing them from the case, etc.

For the average hobbyist, plastic is the ideal medium, in my opinion. It offers the best of both worlds, with an ideal balance of durability and detail. Resin is more on the delicate side of the isle, and metal on the durable (as a material) - but in the case of awkward, multipart metal kits, you are right in a sense, the metal can be tougher for the average person to keep together. For the record, i have a War Hydra that I spent a good deal of time on properly pinning, greenstuffing, and gluing, and it took a fall from a table edge once and miraculously the only thing that happened was one of the heads became slightly wobbly, which I fixed with, you guessed it, a fresh round of green stuff and glue (original pin was still solidly in place). After a little paint you can't even tell it ever fell. Obviously YMMV, if it had landed differently, it could have been a different story. But if done right, metal can be plenty durable enough at the assembly points. Nothing is going to withstand serious punishment no matter the material used None of these models would survive being hurled out of a moving car at 60 mph, for example. If my War Hydra were resin, however, I'd be much more concerned about the various spikes breaking, etc, and would be worried a head or two would snap off in the middle of the neck with little fragments being lost entirely if it hit the floor. With metal, the parts may have come apart at the join, but at least it was at the join and a natural fix (for me at least), rather than in some middle area where it could potentially shatter somewhat.

Similarly, I have a set of metal Blood Knights that have never, and I mean never come loose. I pinned/greenstuffed them so well when people pick them up they often ask me if they are one-piece "chunk of metal" models. It all comes down to hobbyist skill and the quality of the model's joins. Some models are horrible for this, I understand, and there is just nothing much you can do about it. A good friend of mine assembled his hierophant bio-titan and the resin legs began to buckle because there was so much weight on the tips of the claws. He eventually had to drill a huge hole through each leg and put some pretty seriously thick brass rod through them and run it half way up each leg almost. It was very stressful watching him go through this because of the cost of the model and how delicate the resin was - everyone in the room was waiting for things to snap. Luckily, because he took it slow (the better part of a day to do it), things worked out for him with only mild "powdering" of the resin near the entry points of the rods. The point here is, resin isn't ideal in every case, and neither is metal - but for smaller blister packed characters, I think metal was just fine and barring a pin-job or two, wouldn't have needed a resin replacement. I can see resin being better for SOME models, however, just not the majority. And looking at all these comparison photos, I can honestly say with conviction that the fineco$t stuff is not superior at all, it's about the same, really, with a tendency for more noticeable defects happening in faces, etc than I or those in my gaming groups, were used to seeing.

My two cents. Not everyone will agree, I understand this, but I know some of the vets out there know where I am coming from and will see the point I am making.

I have sat on the sidelines watching all this go on and this has to be one of the best posts I've seen . Not everyone is going to agree and no one likes price rises .

I agree, it was a very well written post.

Thrax makes plenty of fair points, and as he points out, much of a model's durability does come down to the builder. Then again, think of how much effort is involved with pinning and GSing and saying sacred incantations and using long-cure epoxies on some of those metal models, when in one step and a dot of superglue those resin models go together as strong as your pinned labor.

thebadabwar wrote:

Cruentus wrote: The good: 3) GW customer service

Hmmm.... I assume you did not have to mail the metal one back first? GW CS made me mail in all the boxes with the miscast resin figures before they shipped out replacements (the guy on the phone practically implied that I am trying to cheat them out of a bunch of miniatures.) I guess the more you buy, the more junk your get, the worse GW CS will treat you.

Back on topic: how are the thin arms and syringes? I am worried that they will just twist or snap off. I have 2 of resin Urien on order to use as Humunculi.

No, I didn't have to mail back the first one. Maybe because it was metal? Its interesting that you had to mail them back, as the CS rep specifically told me that their CS and return policies had not changed (i.e. you wouldn't have to mail it back). Perhaps they wanted to see the miscasts so that they could add extra vents/etc to the mold to address it? (I don't know, pure speculation based on some people's reports that they've seen different sprues of the same minis in later iterations.)

The thin arms and syringes are in perfect condition, surrounded by the thin membrane of resin. I haven't tried to remove them from the sprue yet, I'm still plotting that particular extraction, so as to avoid snapping anything. I'm going to try to carefully hobby knife a bit around the bitz, leaving them attached to the sprue, figuring that'll be the strongest point, and if it pops off the sprue, that's where I'd cut it anyway.

It comes down to this -

Prices went up
Quality went down
no consideration for loyal customers stayed the same

Thrax wrote:

Prometheum5 wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:

squilverine wrote:Personaly I have to say I can't stand them. I think they are cheap and nasty and the amount of cleaning up required puts me off.

I don't understand the metal hate. It's not like metal is *that* difficult to work with is it? With people complaining that it takes a bit more rubbing down to clean up than plastic and that it's such an inconvenience to pin something, oh the horror.

Multi-part metal assemblies *are not* as durable as bonded plastic or resin parts. This is empirical fact based on the nature of the joins. The only advantage well-made metal models have over well-made resin models is the heft, which some people enjoy, however quaint. Resin is easier to cut, easier to glue, bonds better, holds paint better, and typically cleans up faster.

I would say this is mostly true in a sense. However, highly skilled veteran hobbyists can make any metal model rock solid if they put the time into it and the proper combination of pinning, green stuff, and glue. I would agree, resin and plastic are less likely to break at a join in say, a short fall from the table edge, however I have never had a metal sword snap in two on me, and cannot even begin to tell you how many of my DKoK swords and bayonets have broken over the years from things as simple as removing them from the case, etc.

For the average hobbyist, plastic is the ideal medium, in my opinion. It offers the best of both worlds, with an ideal balance of durability and detail. Resin is more on the delicate side of the isle, and metal on the durable (as a material) - but in the case of awkward, multipart metal kits, you are right in a sense, the metal can be tougher for the average person to keep together. For the record, i have a War Hydra that I spent a good deal of time on properly pinning, greenstuffing, and gluing, and it took a fall from a table edge once and miraculously the only thing that happened was one of the heads became slightly wobbly, which I fixed with, you guessed it, a fresh round of green stuff and glue (original pin was still solidly in place). After a little paint you can't even tell it ever fell. Obviously YMMV, if it had landed differently, it could have been a different story. But if done right, metal can be plenty durable enough at the assembly points. Nothing is going to withstand serious punishment no matter the material used None of these models would survive being hurled out of a moving car at 60 mph, for example. If my War Hydra were resin, however, I'd be much more concerned about the various spikes breaking, etc, and would be worried a head or two would snap off in the middle of the neck with little fragments being lost entirely if it hit the floor. With metal, the parts may have come apart at the join, but at least it was at the join and a natural fix (for me at least), rather than in some middle area where it could potentially shatter somewhat.

Similarly, I have a set of metal Blood Knights that have never, and I mean never come loose. I pinned/greenstuffed them so well when people pick them up they often ask me if they are one-piece "chunk of metal" models. It all comes down to hobbyist skill and the quality of the model's joins. Some models are horrible for this, I understand, and there is just nothing much you can do about it. A good friend of mine assembled his hierophant bio-titan and the resin legs began to buckle because there was so much weight on the tips of the claws. He eventually had to drill a huge hole through each leg and put some pretty seriously thick brass rod through them and run it half way up each leg almost. It was very stressful watching him go through this because of the cost of the model and how delicate the resin was - everyone in the room was waiting for things to snap. Luckily, because he took it slow (the better part of a day to do it), things worked out for him with only mild "powdering" of the resin near the entry points of the rods. The point here is, resin isn't ideal in every case, and neither is metal - but for smaller blister packed characters, I think metal was just fine and barring a pin-job or two, wouldn't have needed a resin replacement. I can see resin being better for SOME models, however, just not the majority. And looking at all these comparison photos, I can honestly say with conviction that the fineco$t stuff is not superior at all, it's about the same, really, with a tendency for more noticeable defects happening in faces, etc than I or those in my gaming groups, were used to seeing.

My two cents. Not everyone will agree, I understand this, but I know some of the vets out there know where I am coming from and will see the point I am making.

Have you worked on finecast models first-hand yet?

Bought a few more, and the bond that superglue works on fiddly bits or huge bits is outstanding, far stronger and easier than metal.

I like metal figs as well, and have twenty years of experience in pinning and gluing and fixing...but these Finecast really do go together miraculously well.

I still have yet to see any warpage from heat...after being left in my garage in the Midwest (100degree heat index).

Don't leave models in your car-keep them in a case in your trunk, and don't leave them on windowsills were the sun directly hits them.

I have worked on fineco$t already, and that is the basis for my conclusions. I took care to state that the "joins" on the model, where the glue is applied, will hold together quite well with fineco$t, but less so with the average metal assembly (largely in part to the average hobbyist's skill level). My primary point is that fineco$t will be more shatter/chip prone than the metal models are, especially with the smaller bits and edges, etc such as swords, spikes, etc - the little fiddly bits that protrude from models), and that it has exhibited some miscast issues we haven't typically seen in metals, such as malformed faces due to air bubbles, etc.

As for my own resin models, those not fineco$t (haven't gotten the fineco$t completely painted yet) predominantly my Death Korps of Krieg army, has been subject to loads of broken little resin bits from bayonets, knives, swords, shovel handles, etc. The stuff just doesn't hold up well when you're putting it into a foam case, removing it from a foam case, handling it on the battlefield, etc. Other DKoK players will usually mention something similar if they game with their models away from home with any frequency.

So, essentially, yes fineco$t goes together easier, it's true - i've noticed that, but will the material itself hold up as well? All we can do is wait and watch.

Thrax wrote:My primary point is that fineco$t will be more shatter/chip prone than the metal models are, especially with the smaller bits and edges, etc such as swords, spikes, etc - the little fiddly bits that protrude from models), and that it has exhibited some miscast issues we haven't typically seen in metals, such as malformed faces due to air bubbles, etc.

The skull came off the tip of my shadowseer's staff. Instead of bending and weakening with metal fatigue, it breaks or shatters. I don't work with FW resis so cannot comment on that.

Forgeworld resin and finecast are very different thrax.

Forgeworld resin, if snapped, breaks pretty clean. Most of the time you can glue the bits back together and not even see a line if positioned well.

squilverine wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:

squilverine wrote:Personaly I have to say I can't stand them. I think they are cheap and nasty and the amount of cleaning up required puts me off.

I don't understand the metal hate. It's not like metal is *that* difficult to work with is it? With people complaining that it takes a bit more rubbing down to clean up than plastic and that it's such an inconvenience to pin something, oh the horror.

No metal hate here, I love metal figures, the weight of them certainly gives the feeling of quality. My comment was directed at the new resin miniatures. Both plastic and metals have their pro's and cons. I would say that there is more cleaning up required on plastics, however it is harder to remove lines and tags on metals so the effort required probably evens out.

I was more making a general comment about the dislike towards metal rather than you in particular, in fact I've seen you supporting use of metal miniatures quite a few times recently. I think the "metal haters" exaggerate the drawbacks of metal, it only takes a bit more time to work with and the material is much tougher than resin so once you make a figure it's going to last. I've pinned figures, it's no great hardship. I've been making metal models for 20 years, I don't have figures that 'fall apart' or on which 'the glue won't set'. And if you're worried about them breaking when you drop them on the floor well be more careful, and if someone thinks that these resin figures will just bounce when they hit the floor they are kidding themselves, instead of bending they will just snap bits off. There are still questions about how durable and stable the resin really is, due to distortion in the heat or if they corrode in some fashion over time. The current metal figures are reliable and robust enough to last my lifetime being largely chemically inert, the very old ones can suffer from the so called 'tin plague' but there are ways to avoid that and I think it's a lead issue which doesn't affect a lot of modern figures. This resin is a total unknown. Overall I would say that the resin is no improvement, they've just cashed in one set of drawbacks for another.

People talk about how crisp the detail is on the resin figures. Well how many people have a painting standard to take full advantage of that? I don't think I would get much benefit and I think I paint to a good standard so big whoopee. The other thing I've noticed in close up pictures is that the detail might be "sharp" but the surface of the figure looks quite rough and fibrous, unlike the smooth resin casting of a forgeworld figure.

My FLGS has decided after an initial burst on release to no longer stock finecast, although he will get them in if folks want to order them. His main stock in trade is new and 2nd hand GW stuff, although he does sell a lot of other stuff too.

His rationale is that the amount of returns he has had to handle has been a complete PITA, and its all bad customer relations for him as a businessman, particularly as he deals with a lot of kids who actually seem to find the finecast more difficult to assemble and prepare than the old metal models - which were a lot more forgiving for hamfisted modellers.

Personally I wouldn't touch finecast or any other of GW's overpriced stuff with a 10' pole, so this is no issue for me personally, but I thought it was an interest business decision for him to make. For his business he has found the costs of the transition outweigh the benefits. Other stores will vary though, and maybe he had a particularly bad experience at launch day - I wasn't around, so I can't say for definite.

Well, given the love GW has for any FLGS I'm surprised any of them would want to carry GW products. There is one shop here in Rochester MN where I could possibly get some 40k/Fantasy items right off the shelf and all they carry are plastic sets, primarily troop choices.

Anything more and I have to drive 1 to 2 hours depending on the selection I want to deal with.

Thats sort of the "starter" stock for independent retailers, GW requires them to carry and stock x amount of the core plastics, part of each of the three systems, and some of the rulebooks.

Also, I know FW resin and Fineco$t are different. My point is simply that they are both metal alternatives and neither is as durable a material as a properly-casted metal. Really not trying to say metal is perfect, as nothing is flawless, but less durable and more prone to "brittle-type" effects is what I am attempting to explain. FW resin can break relatively clean, but i've seen where the consistency has been off or something because the material has shattered as well. Fineco$t, in my experience, can be marred rather easily. Haven't yet tested it to see if it will shatter, like I said, time will reveal it all.

mikhaila wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:Not at my store, lol...if they were I'd just buy the metal incubi and DE characters.

Need about 30 metal incubi?) Someone just traded in his WOC army. His last project was to buy 30 or so Incubi to proxy as Slanesh Warriors with great weapons. Primed them on metal bases, and then switched armies. I'm dumping them to ebay soon.

Sadly, could have used them 6 weeks ago when painting 80 of these:

http://www.teamsauron.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=123323125

That's a lot of painted Incubi in that pic

No kidding. It's kind of awesome, but imagine how much those things must have cost, lol...

I was actually thinking about calling GW customer service myself, since after sitting down to clean up my Finecast incubi I found a few defects that pissed me off. Not just sharp edges being chipped off and stuff like I originally thought, but lots of bubbles removing detail like what you've seen people complaining about. Like on one of the trophy racks (that same pair of racks looks kind of odd at the ends, too, like the resin didn't fill the mold entirely), instead of a broken soulstone there's just a big hole where the gem is supposed to be, some guys are missing thumbs and fingers, and the worst one are the half-formed spikes on legs and arms. You could see that on one of the bodies in one of my photos originally, but it's on at least three pairs of the arms, too. Also, the sprue with the swords on it seems to have suffered a nasty mold shift because instead of just a mold line to clean, it's like the two parts didn't even match up properly, and I'm not sure if I can really fix that without destroying some of those details.

But judging from what I've been hearing on Dakka I decided not to bother, since I really don't feel like shipping them back and being out even more money when I'm still upset that I spent close to $40 on these damn models in the first place. There's no guarantee that the replacements will be any better, and I highly doubt they have any of the old metal ones lying around to give me instead, so...better learn how to sculpt!

It still could have been a whole lot worse though, but at this point I'm kind of wishing it was since I'd have to call them up and get them replaced, right now I've just got a ton of work to do and I'm not looking forward to it at all.

I am on my second set of Finecast models - the techmarine with servators. A set I loathe in metal cause of the backpack (yes i own the orginal set too). I ordered directly from GW. Got the set today - this set was crisp and clear (despite my experiance with the librarian) - except for the last sprue. That sprue had a heavy bolter servator, the techmarine's alternate scanner arm, and the servators saw/ drill arm. the scanner was missing the top portion, and the servator had a bubble right smack in the middle of his mush!!

GRRRRRRR...

Quick call tothe US GW customer service number and I have a brand new BOX set coming out to me. I do not have to return anything. I even asked the guy on the phone if he just wanted to send out the two parts. Nope I was told the new box set was on them and to call if it had any new defects . . . Whole process took all of five mintues... If you have defects - CALL THEM. Whats the worst they can do?

Whenever I have had to get a replacement part (IE tanks etc) - GW will send just the sprue (sprue a, c etc). Figures I have always gotten the part. For them to send a whole other box set, no queastions asked - wow my mind is blown!

legion4500 wrote:Whats the worst they can do?

Insinuate that I'm a liar trying to get free stuff?

I'm not sure why they would do that to thebadabwar, if it's true then I hope it was just because he was calling about several boxes at once because if I were the guy on the phone I can see why that might sound fishy.

Perhaps if you lack a receipt as a result of receiving the items as a gift, etc, you might need to send them in. I anticipate this scenario myself this month as it is my birthday soon and the wife will no doubt have gotten me some fineco$t Dark Eldar. Hopefully she kept the slips, but it is likely she did not and I will probably be sending it all into GW. *fingers-crossed*

Sidstyler wrote:No kidding. It's kind of awesome, but imagine how much those things must have cost, lol...

Not when you understand that his is a retailer and would buy them considerably cheaper than you or I could.

He can effectively write them off against business costs and be done with it.

Thrax wrote:Perhaps if you lack a receipt as a result of receiving the items as a gift, etc, you might need to send them in. I anticipate this scenario myself this month as it is my birthday soon and the wife will no doubt have gotten me some fineco$t Dark Eldar. Hopefully she kept the slips, but it is likely she did not and I will probably be sending it all into GW. *fingers-crossed*

Oh god damn it, lol, I don't have the receipt either. In fact I never got one to take home with me, when I bought the incubi that day I also bought a used D&D book that was priced at $17.50 but the guy charged me full price (since it looked like it was practically brand new). I took my receipt and the book back inside to get that corrected and I never got the receipt back.

Ah well, I'd just stick them in one of those cheap bubblewrap envelopes and be done with it then. It's not like they're going to be resold anyway.

I went to my local GW again today (3rd time since the release) and yet again over 50% of the models in the clear boxes had serious and obvious bubble/warping problems or were missing large chunks.

One guy in the store had bought Abbadon and he said he had spend the last 2 hours trying to fix all the major problems with greenstuff and superglue (for small bubbling).
This surprised me as Abbadon had been one of the models everyone said was great (I'd heard once that a helmet on a spike had meen slightly deformed).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I did not buy anything from them.

GWOZ doesn't deserve the business.

Which begs the question, given that GW have admitted working on this resin switch for up to 2 years now, how long does the average consumer's patience last for? How long do we give them to sort the QA problems out?

If it took them two years to get to this point then I haven't much confidence that things will improve at all, this is probably the quality we're going to be expecting from now on for these type of releases and I'm not too thrilled about it. Of course I'd like to be wrong about that and see GW improve the quality tenfold but I won't 'be holding my breath!

I'm something of a gambler and even I get a bad feeling when I think about making another Finecast purchase.

Sidstyler wrote:If it took them two years to get to this point then I haven't much confidence that things will improve at all, this is probably the quality we're going to be expecting from now on for these type of releases and I'm not too thrilled about it. Of course I'd like to be wrong about that and see GW improve the quality tenfold but I won't 'be holding my breath!

I'm something of a gambler and even I get a bad feeling when I think about making another Finecast purchase.

To be fair, 2 years of R & D is not the same as going into full scale production. The optimist in me thinks that a lot of the current issues can be put down to rushing the release, trying to keep up with demand rather than any inherent flaw in the process. Of course, if the new resin method is too slow to keep stock levels satisfied then that's a new problem, especially if they have to keep rushing stock out. Even more so when you factor in having to produce extra to cope with the returns that will be coming in.

One would hope that like any production process, once the line has been in place for a while, it shakes out and stabilises once the process is refined.

The pessimist in me thinks that if GW were planning this for 2 years, why did they botch the release so badly, both in terms of being seemingly caught by surprise with the resupply needed and in terms of the PR? Baffling really.

Sidstyler wrote:

legion4500 wrote:Whats the worst they can do?

Insinuate that I'm a liar trying to get free stuff?

I'm not sure why they would do that to thebadabwar, if it's true then I hope it was just because he was calling about several boxes at once because if I were the guy on the phone I can see why that might sound fishy.

I don't know about consumer law in the US, but in the UK you shouldn't be left out of pocket having to ask for a replacement. If the company want the damaged one back you are within your rights to ask for compensation for the postage/packing to return the item to them. This is why GW and many other companies do not ask for the damaged product to be returned.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:... ...

They made out in WD that the secrecy was a virtue.

It was not.

Everything done by GW is a virtue, because it is done by GW.

At the end of the day, polystyrene, or maybe ABS, is the best material for larger models. Neither metal nor resin are properly suitable for casting the parts for a large figure or vehicle due to a number of factors such as weight and structural strength of the material.

The Finecast resin is a clever way to re-use the original masters and avoid the cost of moving to proper injection moulding.

As for the detail question, I have seen enough metal models from Studio McVey, MERCS and Infinity to know that metal is capable of excellent detail.

I'm now up to 9 (NINE) miscast Captain Sterns in a row.

Absolutely fething amazing, GW.

Kilkrazy wrote:As for the detail question, I have seen enough metal models from Studio McVey, MERCS and Infinity to know that metal is capable of excellent detail.

It certainly is, looking at companies like Verlinden and Andrea you get smooth fine casting in resin and metal. They seem capable of casting fine detail like straps and wires on 54mm figures that are finer than what GW produce on their 28mm figures and they don't have a grainy quality to the metal or the pitting you sometimes see. My guess is that due to a desire to produce high volume GW have a tendency to place speedy production over quality which means not using optimal temperatures and allowing models to cool before removing from the mould.

filbert wrote:To be fair, 2 years of R & D is not the same as going into full scale production. The optimist in me thinks that a lot of the current issues can be put down to rushing the release, trying to keep up with demand rather than any inherent flaw in the process. Of course, if the new resin method is too slow to keep stock levels satisfied then that's a new problem, especially if they have to keep rushing stock out. Even more so when you factor in having to produce extra to cope with the returns that will be coming in.

One would hope that like any production process, once the line has been in place for a while, it shakes out and stabilises once the process is refined.

Yeah, that's true. I wasn't really being fair.

winterdyne wrote:I'm now up to 9 (NINE) miscast Captain Sterns in a row.

Good god, nine?

I guess like a lot of people, I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt thus far but in general, people don't have limitless patience - they need to shape up quickly or it will cause more drams I think, especially bearing in mind winterdyne's Stern troubles...

filbert wrote:I guess like a lot of people, I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt thus far but in general, people don't have limitless patience - they need to shape up quickly or it will cause more drams I think, especially bearing in mind winterdyne's Stern troubles...

It also doesn't help that we're being charged an arm and a leg for them. Could be why people have so little tolerance for failure.

I think by now is safe to say that if you decide to buy finecast you will have to compromise and accept some considerable casting flaws... Unless things change 180 theres no point in buying these and expect something else.

Resins never were the best material for heavy duty gamming, they are better for display painting and one character here and there... not for full regiments.
I espected that the finecast formula had considered that because even if the quality control is very bad on the casting department and even if you fix all flaws there's one thing you cannot avoid and that is the fact this material is not apropriated for gamming miniatures... one thing is a metal joint that breaks because modeller is not experienced and mess up the assembly another thing is breaking spikes, swords small things after all is assembled by a pro modeller... theres no way to avoid that... and that makes a hell of a diference.

Its like you buy a car with cosmetic defects and you fix them ,at you own expenses, but when you run it the motor melts and car goes no where.

winterdyne wrote:I'm now up to 9 (NINE) miscast Captain Sterns in a row.

Absolutely fething amazing, GW.

That....is special.

Sidstyler wrote:If it took them two years to get to this point then I haven't much confidence that things will improve at all, this is probably the quality we're going to be expecting from now on for these type of releases and I'm not too thrilled about it. Of course I'd like to be wrong about that and see GW improve the quality tenfold but I won't 'be holding my breath!

I'm something of a gambler and even I get a bad feeling when I think about making another Finecast purchase.

When did they make the decision to stop buying metal and buy in resin and rework the moulds? If they decided months ago they may have thought that production problems would be sorted by now but when it came to switch over time and they had few metal models in stock and the moulds were ready they couldn't delay.

I don't understand why they needed the secrecy. Were they under some delusion that the resin would be so great that people would stop buying the metals for months waiting for the resin to appear? Because if that's the case they don't understand hobbyists at all, they hate change and the unknown, they want consistency and assured quality.

Yeah, it doesn't make much sense to me either. I can see why they do that with army releases, because they want you to buy the old book even if the new one's just around the corner (which is a dick move), but there's no reason to keep this kind of thing secret.

winterdyne wrote:I'm now up to 9 (NINE) miscast Captain Sterns in a row.

Out of interest, are you seeing the same flaws each time?

Sidstyler wrote:Yeah, it doesn't make much sense to me either. I can see why they do that with army releases, because they want you to buy the old book even if the new one's just around the corner (which is a dick move), but there's no reason to keep this kind of thing secret.

I really have to agree with you here. I can understand why car companies do this sort of thing, because technically the older model car is still completely drivable and worth owning, even if it's not the new, flashier model. You can still get 100% use out of it as intended and enjoy owning it. However, what GW is doing with the rulebooks, etc is like someone selling you a package of meat, and deliberately keeping the expiration date hidden from you. Sure, you might have 2 years to eat the meat (if kept frozen, perhaps? - work with me here) but it might already be a month from spoiling and you can't tell the difference because you don't know when it expires. I think GW trying to obscure their future releases and pinning potentially (and knowingly doing so) soon-to-be worthless (aside from being an overpriced fluff pamphlet) rulebooks on their hobbyists is a complete and total dick move - especially when they're gouging people around $40 a book these days. That's like someone selling you a concert ticket well aware of the fact that the show is going to be cancelled next month. Talk about terrible ethics and a lack of respect for their customers. After everything that I've seen I certainly don't expect GW to have some altruistic viewpoint on their sales, but c'mon.

I think another possible reason why so many people are pissed about fineco$t is that many of these models are little centerpieces for their armies and units that they want to have painted really nice and detailed, and so when the pricey character or what have you is all jacked up out of the mold, people are feeling increasingly let down because they really wanted to have something cool to center their unit around, where instead the plastic unit has less defects than the centerpiece.

Again, my two cents there.

Popped into my LGS today and took a look at their Finecast range. They had taken down some models that had serious flaws, such as packed with the wrong base or missing components (not sure if this was due to incomplete sprues or miscasts). Most of the figures on the shelf looked perfect, although there were a few with serious flaws. Lelith Hesperax had an air bubble where her chin should be, for example - that mini seems to have a lot of problems. I bought a Shadowseer, because it's the last model I need for my Harlequins collection (including all the Rogue Trader ones ) and it looked flawless. Shop assistant checked blister over before taking my cash, didn't spot any problems either. Got it home, there are 13 very small air bubbles - 4 on the backpack, 2 on the fingers of the left hand, one on the end of the staff, one in the edge of the belt, one on the fingers of the right hand, 2 on the shuriken pistol, 2 on top of the head - all in positions that were hard to see while it was in the blister. Thankfully, none of the holes obliterate detail, tho some are in tricky places. The holes are too large to ignore or cover with paint, but small enough to be a pain to use green stuff on, so eugh. Some are small enough to use superglue on, but I feel uncomfortable smearing superglue all over the thing.

There's resin inside the hood, between the head and hood, where there should be empty space. The resin itself is better than I expected, soft but not too soft, except for the thin staff, which is very wobbly and bendy. It cuts slightly easier than plastic. Using files is not a problem, so long as you are gentle. I tried one out on a bit of sprue first, then on an inconspicuous bit of the model. Mould lines removed very easily, no damage caused.

All in all, I wish I'd bought a second hand metal one off ebay. These are not an improvement on metal. I would choose plesin over metal if I wanted to do a tricky conversion, or if the metal was much more expensive, but otherwise I'm favouring second-hand pewter whenever possible. I stand by my decision to not buy finecast unless i can check it in store, and next time I'll check a lot more thoroughly. Luckily, it looks like my LGS will be very understanding about this. That does however prevent me from mail ordering from discount stores. My LGS is amazing, but it's a long way from where I live and only gives 10% discount in store, compared to the 20% discount you can get from some online stores.

I'm still shocked that GW have reduced the quality of their products, that's one thing I never expected of them, and i definitely think this reduction in quality (if necessary at all) should have been accompanied by a big reduction in price, a la Mantic's doubling the numbers of minis in their boxes that changed from metal to resin. Increasing the prices and claiming these are the best miniatures ever produced is just a con.

Edit: spotted 2 more air bubbles. D'oh!

There's an easy solution to all of this.

Don't buy GW rules and models.

Definitely looking at alternatives. Eagerly awaiting warpath minis, and me and my buddies play using our own home-spun rules.

Kilkrazy wrote:There's an easy solution to all of this.

Don't buy GW rules and models.

People have been suggesting this from the start....in the end, I think, very few people will heed these words of wisdom. The result, ever more posts complaining about GW in some form or another....ah well.

Just want to say I like finecast.

I have heard the quality issues were a result of going into large scale production, things that are impossible to catch in small test prduction batches. My local GW said that they've found the issues in the QC and they'll be able to fix it going forward. I know I will wait for second wave casts and see how they turn out, but I think that's a reasonable explination

Looks like Hitler just heard about the price increase....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXVKj0KcbIQ

Dysartes wrote:

winterdyne wrote:I'm now up to 9 (NINE) miscast Captain Sterns in a row.

Out of interest, are you seeing the same flaws each time?

To clarify, I rejected 5 out of hand in the store. Some of these were either warped out of true, had obvious nasty bubbles, or came from torn moulds, leaving either mould rubber or chunks of resin attached to the mini where it would be extremely difficult to remove.

Of the ones I've actually opened and examined at home (4), for the most part, yes:

Air bubbles at the bottom of the model, knocking corners off the feet, cloak, greaves. Varying size and severity. A consistent air bubble knocking a corner off the bolter casing. All need the greenstuff breaking out - I ignore anything that can be fixed by simple surfacing.
Warping taking parts out of true, with fixes being difficult.
Mould slipping on a couple of occasions, with the line of offset passing through detail that would be difficult to fix (the book title on his left hip).

I would actually say that 2 of the pieces I've had would have been marginally acceptable at about a third to maybe a quarter the price (<£5 per miniature). At the price they're marketed, no way in hell do these pass muster.

Sidstyler wrote:

legion4500 wrote:Whats the worst they can do?

Insinuate that I'm a liar trying to get free stuff?

I'm not sure why they would do that to thebadabwar, if it's true then I hope it was just because he was calling about several boxes at once because if I were the guy on the phone I can see why that might sound fishy.

Yes, it is true! I am sending multiple boxes back. I am sending one of the boxes back for the 2nd time. Next time I’ll just take them back to the GW store. The guy at Customer Service told me that they changed their policy recently after some guy ripped them off and I had to send them the boxes first. So, obviously I am trying to rip them off since that new policy only applies to me.

Maybe there's hope after all, since the Chaos and Dark Elf sorcerors previewed here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/375392.page are blisters of single plastic minis rather than resin. Maybe they were using resin as a stopgap to replace everything with plastic.

+Add to Wishlist.

Where are these cast and checked? Are they made in the UK?

Kilkrazy wrote:There's an easy solution to all of this.

Don't buy GW rules and models.

That's the thing, what might be bad for GW now in ten years time may will be remembered as the point that the entire hobby got a boost. Privateer Press have already got a significant number of players, a well timed sale (something GW has not done since I was a teenager) coinciding with the GW price rise will bring them even more.

I cancelled my WFB O&G army - not only because of the price rises (especially because of my location in the world, the new trade embargo made them even more expensive) but because of everything else over the last couple of years. To be honest, I just didn't have the stomach for it.

So, I've decided to get into Infinity, on the basis of what I have read here and on some recommendations by a couple of friends back home. I've also picked up one of the new Mantic games, 34.99 (pounds) they are catering for what GW is failing to provide in many ways.

I think the more other games systems can be promoted the better. Let people know there are many more, fun systems out there that in many ways are better than the tired, cash-cows of 40k and WFB with their constant regurgitation of rules and new editions which really give no new experience beyond anything that you have experienced a hundred times already.

I think it is a great time for the hobby to expand. The other companies besides GW would be wise to kick into promotion overdrive at this point. Framing it from the perspective of war(gaming), GW has dropped its guard in a big way on more than one front; I think its safe to say at this point. This could open up the field and break the monopoly further if other companies take advantage of the sentiments brewing in the community. Of course GW is the beast in TDA with a stormshield and thunderhammer deepstriking on top of a landraider directly into our bank accounts.

I bought finecast Dante a couple of weeks ago and he was flawless. I checked carefully. Some of the other models at the LGS had the common problems. Kinda crazy. I can't remember the last time I returned a metal model. Usually my returns are not from defect but from a missing component or sprue.

I bought the finecast Raptors box today just to test my luck. The champ with the LC is epic. Except he has a quarter inch divet in his shoulder pad and side. Two other troops have minor bubbles ruining tubes, a chainsword engine and a skull pad. Two troops are pretty nice. Comparable to metal.

Based on the price for the box, I think I will be calling customer service on Monday (are they open tommorow?). From here on out, I don't think I will buy anything I can't inspect. I've been collecting since 91 and have grown to really like working with metal. It is an amazing substance and I am suprised how many people don't seem to be willing to learn or enjoy the process. We are entering the silicone age or plastic age. Plastic/Resin is fast and feels like liquid under the bite of the blade so it has its appeal.

This stuff is not better than metal. The quality has dropped for the moment. If GW takes care with the customer service as they always have, then this will register as a growing pain into the future. Only time will tell.

I blame the typos on the good music and the ale

Pacific wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:There's an easy solution to all of this.

Don't buy GW rules and models.

That's the thing, what might be bad for GW now in ten years time may will be remembered as the point that the entire hobby got a boost. Privateer Press have already got a significant number of players, a well timed sale (something GW has not done since I was a teenager) coinciding with the GW price rise will bring them even more.

Except that it probably won't be. Because, well, miniature gaming is a niche hobby as it is and if GW goes up, those players aren't going to mystically go play Warmachine. They're going to go play video games or something else.

Without GW, most independent game stores fold within weeks.

A lot of people who start GW stop within a year or two. They are the n00bs who account for a significant chunk of GW's revenue because they have to buy all new books, armies and clobber quite quickly. When bored, most of them fall away. Some of them become long term players and some of the long term people go on to notice other games. However, everyone who plays wargames didn't come in through GW. The wargame industry as a whole is not dependent on GW as an entry point.

In the UK it was the rise and rise of GW in the days when it was a general RPG/wargame company that wiped out a lot of UK independent shops. UK retail space lease costs are also to blame.

I'm not completely sure about that (++EDIT sorry, Warglock's post final comment++). Although GW has been responsible for growing the market, there are a lot of great alternatives out there now and they are growing in popularity. I think you are right that the hobby would suffer (in terms of the total number of wargamers) if GW closed suddenly. But I don't think GW is going to fold overnight, I think the worst thing that could happen to them is there share value drops to the point they end up getting bought out by some Chinese toy company (the issue has raised it's head in the past).

In the meantime, a greater divergence of games will mean hobbyists won't just stop playing on the basis of being upset by GW (either through price, or any other issue which has come about in the last month), they will see games of other games taking place at their FLGS and decide to give one of those a try instead. I know a number of guys who had stopped playing GW stuff and also wargaming on the basis they were bored with it, but have their interest invigorated by the breath of fresh air that is the new games which have come to prominence over the last few years. And I think the effect will be a steamrollering in popularity of those games, as when more people see the games then more and more of them will want in. We are already seeing this with the likes of Infinity, which has existed as a relatively low key game for years, despite having a fantastic rules system and models. Now some clever marketing at a time when GW is seeming to push its customers away, and the player base of the game is exploding. Privateer Press and Mantic are doing exactly the same thing.

army310 wrote:Just want to say I like finecast.

...yes. Good for you!

After tonight I can't say I'm really a fan.

winterdyne wrote:Mould slipping on a couple of occasions, with the line of offset passing through detail that would be difficult to fix (the book title on his left hip).

That's what happened to me, I'm not sure I can fix those incubi swords without ruining them. Kinda hard to say which pisses me off more, the mold slipping or the bubbles destroying detail.

cadbren wrote:Where are these cast and checked? Are they made in the UK?

Yes, I think a few pages back a few of us confirmed that all our boxes were manufactured in the UK.



Anyway, because I'm a big god damn idiot, I decided "Screw it! I'm gonna go gamble $40 away!" today and bought yet another box of incubi. When I got out to my car I eagerly opened the box to inspect them, though that proved pointless because it was 10pm and my dome lights didn't illuminate much. I just now inspected the parts under a lamp real close, and while I'd say this box is slightly better (besides having a lot of flash the sprue with the swords on it is pretty good, none of the arms have missing spikes and the mold didn't shift this time), it seems to have the same problems (just not quite as many, only a couple of details and mostly on the trophy racks this time), and one new one. One of the bodies is still missing the spikes on its legs (the same pose from the first box...not sure why this keeps happening), a couple of other details on the trophy racks are missing (this time there's a big hole on what looks like a crux terminatus so half of it is missing, and there's a small hole or two in some of the other gems), and this time one of the trophy racks was actually broken. It's still attached to the sprue but the end of it is broken in the middle and has to be glued back on...before I've even clipped anything off! There was also a huge amount of excess resin between a couple of bits on one of the sprues...not the paper thin flash or the vents, just this big chunk of stuff. Not sure what that is.

So...I dunno. These are not going to be quite as difficult to fix, except for that one guys armor spikes and that crux/cross detail, but...seriously? I mean I'm not expecting utter perfection here (although for these prices that's exactly what we deserve), resin will have bubbles, that's just how it is...but these types of problems just shouldn't be happening, should they? I'm not an expert at resin casting, in fact I know jack all about it, but if there are bubbles so bad that fine details (those same fine details we're paying a premium for) are just gone, that's just not right, is it?

This is my last box of Finecast incubi (probably my last closed box Finecast purchase ever), I'm not doing this again. By all rights I was stupid as hell to do it the first time knowing what I did beforehand, and I couldn't even tell you what the hell was going through my mind earlier tonight (I guess running on 3 hours of sleep might not have helped), but that's it. If I absolutely have to have any more of these models I'll be buying the metals second hand. I like the lighter material but it isn't worth the extra work involved (and broken parts before I've even clipped anything off the sprue! GOD DAMN IT).

Speaking of which, the store's Finecast Astorath came off his sprue inside the blister. Perhaps packing the models without foam when switching to a more brittle material was unwise.

I think I'd be calling GW Customer Service if I were you, Sid - about both boxes.

So I don't know about you guys, or if you've heard about this stuff yet, but regardless, I thought I'd post it up here, and see what you think.

Yesterday I was down at my local GW, chatting with one of the guys there (funny story, the new manager there seems a bit nutty, he was dancing to the music playing in store) and he was plugging finecast somewhat. I asked a bit about the quality issues, and he told me at this point, finecast is at 80% un- warped quality at the moment, and they were planning on getting it to 100% by gamesday. Which led onto the other topic that they apparently had to rush finecast because it got leaked onto the interwebz before they were ready. He said the GW like to intentionally leak certain stuff (I may have stifled a giggle then) but they were trying to keep finecast under wraps until Gamesday, and have all the metal miniatures in resin. Of course, as they had to release it early, they have some quality issues, and only the 100 most wanted miniatures got finecasted.

Taken with a grain of salt of course, but it makes me hope that they will have got their act together by gamesday.

GW could probably get away with casting problems if they weren't so expensive. But when you charge nearly £15 for a single foot figure people are not going to be forgiving.

GW have to get this gak sorted because major companies don't ship models like this, air bubbles and the like are a rarity.

I have seen resin kits that come with air bubbles and warpage as standard, and by that I mean you are not going to get a better replacement, it's what you knowingly buy into and have to work with. But if you wanted an obscure model your choices were to settle for a dodgy resin or scratchbuild. But this conjours up memories of military modelling in the 80s and early 90s when if you didn't go to Verlinden or Accurate Armour or someone like then then you were buying god-knows-what. Resin stuff would come in strange colours like blue or green or puke-yellow and was being made by largely unknown and now long forgotten businesses and stuff coming out of Eastern Europe which came in mostly plain boxes with a label stapled onto the cover. And if you didn't find it at a model show under a table then you were ordering it blind out the back of a magazine.

They were better times!!



The Eastern European stuff is good today as is that produced by small companies, the technology is so much better and the internet has improved awareness of products however obscure. GW shouldn't be behind everyone else in quality, air bubbles are not expected by anyone these days in or outside of the GW hobby.

ghosty wrote:Which led onto the other topic that they apparently had to rush finecast because it got leaked onto the interwebz before they were ready.

But why would they need to rush? What was the disaster that would befall them if there was a leak? It's a change of casting material which is different to releasing a new army or something which you could worry about a competitor undercutting you by rush releasing an alternative.

There have been rumours for ages and ages. It just sounds like an excuse to me, because the damage being done right now by them releasing a major product prematurely is much greater than the harm of simply waiting. I can't imagine what the harm could be by holding off on the release of finecast.

Anyway, GW have been winding down metal supplies for ages, reducing things in stores and making less and less available to independent stores so a sudden rushed release decision doesn't sound right to me, otherwise there would have been no metal in the stores for months running up to Gamesday.

The faux need for secrecy is just baffling to me. If what you say is correct then GW is being run by people who have bigged themselves up into thinking think they are in the computer or arms industry where everything needs to be guarded at all times because of the very real risk of people are trying to steal ideas and undercut each other all the time and your very business and national security hangs upon it. Is this why GW legal have been going mad recently, the company is being run by people who have a massively inflated sense of importance and feel they have to prove this to shareholders and the world? I can't wrap my head around it. It's all this 'fortress wall' bunker mentality bs again.

The "we needed to rush production of tens of thousands of pounds worth of models, knowing that doing so would make us look like idiots with no QC, cause customers and independent stores to leave us in droves, and cost us a fortune in returns, because the alternative was that people might find out about the release early" excuse sounds like an excuse, on balance.

I don't really know what to expect but I guess I'll be getting up early tomorrow to give them a call, because I'm out $80 now (my own damn fault I admit) and I'm not satisfied. I just can't forgive bs like missing details due to giant resin bubbles, not when the product is advertised as having "finer detail" than the metal ones which had none of these stupid problems.

I do like though how this rumored sudden change in policy, a policy they've had for years now, comes about right around the time they rush out a product that they know is going to be sub par and garner a lot of complaints...

ghosty wrote:So I don't know about you guys, or if you've heard about this stuff yet, but regardless, I thought I'd post it up here, and see what you think.

Yesterday I was down at my local GW, chatting with one of the guys there (funny story, the new manager there seems a bit nutty, he was dancing to the music playing in store) and he was plugging finecast somewhat. I asked a bit about the quality issues, and he told me at this point, finecast is at 80% un- warped quality at the moment, and they were planning on getting it to 100% by gamesday. Which led onto the other topic that they apparently had to rush finecast because it got leaked onto the interwebz before they were ready. He said the GW like to intentionally leak certain stuff (I may have stifled a giggle then) but they were trying to keep finecast under wraps until Gamesday, and have all the metal miniatures in resin. Of course, as they had to release it early, they have some quality issues, and only the 100 most wanted miniatures got finecasted.

Taken with a grain of salt of course, but it makes me hope that they will have got their act together by gamesday.

If I am right in saying it, I think White Dwarf is worked on well in advance of the published copy. I'm not sure of the exact figure but the copy you see in the shops was actually written some months in advance (they may be possibly anything up to 6 months in advance). Anyway, given the large Finecast spread that they had this month seems to somewhat debunk the notion that they rushed out the release to countermand some internet rumours...

Sidstyler wrote:I don't really know what to expect but I guess I'll be getting up early tomorrow to give them a call, because I'm out $80 now (my own damn fault I admit) and I'm not satisfied. I just can't forgive bs like missing details due to giant resin bubbles, not when the product is advertised as having "finer detail" than the metal ones which had none of these stupid problems.

I do like though how this rumored sudden change in policy, a policy they've had for years now, comes about right around the time they rush out a product that they know is going to be sub par and garner a lot of complaints...

I would not worry. Looks like the ship defective items to them first policy only applies to me. But keep us posted. I'll be calling them tomorrow as well, asking why they have not shipped my replacement boxes yet. Oh, how fun!

So, if I want to get, say, Vulkan Hestan or Chief Librarian Tigurius, I just have to wait until GW decides that I can have them again? If I am understanding correctly, they are no longer available in metal, but since they haven't come out in resin yet, I am just hosed?

Jimsolo wrote:So, if I want to get, say, Vulkan Hestan or Chief Librarian Tigurius, I just have to wait until GW decides that I can have them again? If I am understanding correctly, they are no longer available in metal, but since they haven't come out in resin yet, I am just hosed?

I think so. I was at the local GW store today and the manager told me that GW has also required all their independent stock lists to get rid of the metal models. It looks like that at least the premiere stores will be having sales on the metal figs or shipping them back to GW to get rid of their metal stock.

The GW website says "Usually ships within 24 hours" under availability when I looked at Vulken Hestan. If you couldn't get it anymore then wouldn't they have made it "No longer available", or can you still purchase the models but have to wait until a Finecast replacement comes out, which could be months?

thebadabwar wrote:

Jimsolo wrote:So, if I want to get, say, Vulkan Hestan or Chief Librarian Tigurius, I just have to wait until GW decides that I can have them again? If I am understanding correctly, they are no longer available in metal, but since they haven't come out in resin yet, I am just hosed?

I think so. I was at the local GW store today and the manager told me that GW has also required all their independent stock lists to get rid of the metal models. It looks like that at least the premiere stores will be having sales on the metal figs or shipping them back to GW to get rid of their metal stock.

I'm not sure Indies can move that stock quickly enough without losing significant profit margins.

I broke my Succubus's foot I mean I knew these were light but while trying to clear a mold line I cut through the model. The worst part though is that the base rail wouldn't fit in the slot well at all. I like the look and feel of fine cast and think it's a good idea, but the fragility really makes me nervous seeing as I'm still pretty new to the hobby.

WarOne wrote:I'm not sure Indies can move that stock quickly enough without losing significant profit margins.

I guess it depends on the store. One local store here did a 40% off on all metal. It's one of the "Partner" stores. But the other stores around here still have their metal stuff sitting there on the shelves full priced. The GW sore manager implied that they could loose their account with GW if they would not get rid of their metal stock in time. This all sounds fishy to me. Plus don't most independent stores get their GW stuff through other distributors?

Just..fix the issues with the resins. I've ordered resin from eastern Europe, from France, and Japan. Forge-world and games-workshop have consistently been of poor quality.

Deep Throat wrote:I broke my Succubus's foot I mean I knew these were light but while trying to clear a mold line I cut through the model. The worst part though is that the base rail wouldn't fit in the slot well at all. I like the look and feel of fine cast and think it's a good idea, but the fragility really makes me nervous seeing as I'm still pretty new to the hobby.

This is a good thing and a bad thing.

The softness makes it so much easier to convert and clean up.

But the downside is things like this happen - especially with where some of the the sprue is attached - some of those clampack characters I'd be so hesistant to touch with where the sprues go on the model....

There is a learning curve to working with a new material. At least the resin should cement back together easily after being cut.

Pacific wrote:I'm not completely sure about that (++EDIT sorry, Warglock's post final comment++). Although GW has been responsible for growing the market, there are a lot of great alternatives out there now and they are growing in popularity. I think you are right that the hobby would suffer (in terms of the total number of wargamers) if GW closed suddenly.

Personally I think tha the kind of closed-mind gamers who are all "Only GW" are no great loss to the wargaming world. If GW were to close tomorrow and take all of them with them I'd consider it a great service to the wider wargaming hobby.

But then I am a cantankerous old git.

It really is a sad state of affairs that regular GW seems to have more miscasts than Forge World, and in some cases it's just as expensive if not moreso

Is there going to be a second wave of Finecast? Anyone have a release list similar to the first if so...

The shipment from CS containing the replacement Big Mek with SAG for the one I posted in this thread arrived Saturday. It's a lighter gray color than the miscast version and it's completely 100% bubble free, the grot has all it's fingers and toes even!(TFG) Comparing the two just made me realize there are even more problems with the first miss-cast version than I realized. Lot numbers were different of course.

While I'm not happy with the return service and getting a bum mini to start with at least the following batch looked as nice as the material could look. Hopefully they'll get the QA tightened up and the mix for the resin perfected.

I just wanted to add that http://www.bronzeagemin.com/ actually shipped me free models as an apology for an order delay shorter than what it took GW to replace my Mek. While I can't really expect free stuff it's just another difference between Walmart, I mean Games-Workshop and the smaller shops around. I'm sort of looking at the bright side of Finecast, it has certainly exposed me to a bunch of really nice small shops that make some great models.

snake wrote:Is there going to be a second wave of Finecast? Anyone have a release list similar to the first if so...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/374302.page
Also some monsters in July (Lammasu, Taurus and more).

Question, how bad is the melting problem with these models?

I've heard quite a few people mention this and I don't want to spend £50 on Azhag the Slaughterer or some equivilent only to leave it in my bedroom, the sun to shine in the window and cause my model to become a pile of goo on a base or to collapse on itself

They don't melt. They may sag if you let them get too warm. That's how you can correct warpage by warming them under the hot tap or with a hairdryer.

Saw / got my first finecast over the weekend.

Looked at 10+ of them.

Sorry that i can't add to the doom and gloom of this thread.

But there was nothing wrong with them, nor was there any issues with the one i bought.

Its going to be rather nice to work on the conversion i have planned for it in plastic instead of metal.

Well worth the $13 for the commisar.

i'm on my 3rd finecast. my first was the librarian, the second was the techmarine kit - only had two small defects with the techmarine's scanner arm and a small bubble on the servators chin. GW sent me a replacement kit. The new kit is razor sharp with only one small bubble on the techmarines boot (its so close to the corner of the scult its undectable). They do seem to be improving.

Opened my second Finecast models to discover a large range of defects including snapped bits, grooves where the mould halves didn't seem to line up, fuzzy casting, bubbles galore etc. etc.

I sent an email during the weekend but I've yet to get a reply. Ho hum.

After discussion amongst the Moderators the thread was closed as it had turned into a case of product BLEGH! pronouncements.
I had closed the thread.

BUT: Due to this being the only finecast thread here I've reopened it - Please try and add news or rumours from this point forward (includes examples of good or bad) random discussion about finecast or GW's grand overarching conspiracy to rip us off is not necessary.


Waaagh_Gonads

Thorgut wrote:Opened my second Finecast models to discover a large range of defects including snapped bits, grooves where the mould halves didn't seem to line up, fuzzy casting, bubbles galore etc. etc.

I sent an email during the weekend but I've yet to get a reply. Ho hum.

give 'em a quick ring.

So Guys.....Whats in the 2nd Wave?

I'm hoping meganobz, has anyone got a clue?

Ajroo wrote:So Guys.....Whats in the 2nd Wave?
I'm hoping meganobz, has anyone got a clue?

From previous page:

Kroothawk wrote:

snake wrote:Is there going to be a second wave of Finecast? Anyone have a release list similar to the first if so...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/374302.page
Also some monsters in July (Lammasu, Taurus and more).

Kilkrazy wrote:There's an easy solution to all of this.

Don't buy GW rules and models.

It never ceases to amaze me the propensity of GW players to just complain and complain and complain about every little thing GW does. People either need to suck it up or move on to something else.

Yes the finecast release was screwed up; no doubt about it. It really only impacts you, though, if you are a totally new player or just have to have a new army. I've been playing GW games since the 3rd edition Warhammer Fantasy hardback book. I buy minis now to add to my established collection. It isn't hard to just ignore finecast for now until it improves. It is just laughable that people who list thousands of points of different armies in their sigs are getting so upset over this. You obviously have all the minis you really need to play with. What is the big deal?? Yeah GW does stupid things and GW doesn't seem to have much respect for its established player base to any degree. To that I say "so what?". I've got enough GW product that if they went out of business tomorrow I could still play all the games I play without even the slightest impact. Most of us posting here are in the same position I am in.

That said I regularly play 40k, Epic 40k (don't have armegeddon), Necromunda and Blood Bowl, but lately have been playing even more Flames of War. Something to be said for playing a game with a well written set of rules. I am also playing Uncharted Seas and Firestorm Armada along with learning Warmachine. If you aren't having fun playing GW stuff it is pointless to complain about it. Find something that you *can* have fun with!!

Skriker

I think part of the the point KK was making was that you can play GW games (all of the specialist games you mention) for free and use others miniatures.

I didn't read it all...
But GW is actually replacing finecast figs that are defected?

theQuanz wrote:I didn't read it all...
But GW is actually replacing finecast figs that are defected?

Yes, of course.




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notprop wrote:I think part of the the point KK was making was that you can play GW games (all of the specialist games you mention) for free and use others miniatures.

YEs.

And you don't have to play GW games. You can play non GW games.

Has the cost of the Specialist Game models increased ?

Why would GW require that we send the defective sprues to get a replacement when, in the past, with "more expensive" metal, they would send a replacement without question ?

After another week, my FLGS STILL cannot get any more FineCast models in. I'm anxious to get a Grey Knights Draigo to give this line a try.

Myrthe wrote:Has the cost of the Specialist Game models increased ?

Not that I've heard.

Myrthe wrote:Why would GW require that we send the defective sprues to get a replacement when, in the past, with "more expensive" metal, they would send a replacement without question ?

As far as I'm aware, the only instance of this we've heard about is with a guy complaining about multiple boxed sets at once.

Myrthe wrote:After another week, my FLGS STILL cannot get any more FineCast models in. I'm anxious to get a Grey Knights Draigo to give this line a try.

That's a little odd - I thought they were able to order 3 of any Finecast model per week (according to Maelstrom), but maybe demand is outstripping supply here.

Anyone know what they are doing if you get a defective metal mini, or a missing part. Just wondering as there are some boxes around at independants to buy?

Just wondering what happens if you get a duff one, and the box has since switched to finecast?

This might not be a suitable question but what has the metal model been sent to?

I saw my local GW manager sending the whole box of metal minis back to somewhere.

Are they just gonna be destroyed? seems like a waste.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Anyone know what they are doing if you get a defective metal mini, or a missing part. Just wondering as there are some boxes around at independants to buy?

Just wondering what happens if you get a duff one, and the box has since switched to finecast?

I have already seen someone post that they were sent a finecast replacement. Makes sense.

It may have been in the returns thread?

I have to say that all of this is increasingly looking like a rushed release, as GW have said I believe? Specifically the "only 3 each" in an order (see Maelstrom) suggests that they hadn't built up stock to meet demand, the varied quality would also probably come about because of this.

I guess that once the word was out metal miniature sales dried up and they thought that anything, even a disproportionately high percentage of miscasts and the related bad press and returns, was better than the drop in turnover with half year trading approaching.

Grabbed my first Finecast miniature last night - a Zoanthrope. I need 2 to fill out my 1000 points of Tyranids and start playing again, and I was waiting for them to be redone ever since I heard about the whole resin switch ages ago since there was no way I was getting them in metal.

First impressions were good. I checked it out in the clam pack thoroughly, and unpacked it as soon as I got it home. No miscasts. Two airbubbles - not even patched of air bubbles, just two tiny ones. One in the head carapace that will be invisible when the model is painted, and one beneath the tip of a claw, again, that will be invisible when painted.

I can't really compare to the metal Zoanthrope as far as details go as I don't have one, but the light weight is definitely a boon for the Zoanthrope. It won't fall over when it sits on a misplaced grain of sand.

If anyone wants to see pictures of it on the frame, I have them.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Anyone know what they are doing if you get a defective metal mini, or a missing part. Just wondering as there are some boxes around at independants to buy?

Just wondering what happens if you get a duff one, and the box has since switched to finecast?

If the metal model were out of production, clearly they could not supply a direct replacement, so they would offer a cash refund or a Finecast replacement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

-Loki- wrote:Grabbed my first Finecast miniature last night - a Zoanthrope. I need 2 to fill out my 1000 points of Tyranids and start playing again, and I was waiting for them to be redone ever since I heard about the whole resin switch ages ago since there was no way I was getting them in metal.

First impressions were good. I checked it out in the clam pack thoroughly, and unpacked it as soon as I got it home. No miscasts. Two airbubbles - not even patched of air bubbles, just two tiny ones. One in the head carapace that will be invisible when the model is painted, and one beneath the tip of a claw, again, that will be invisible when painted.

I can't really compare to the metal Zoanthrope as far as details go as I don't have one, but the light weight is definitely a boon for the Zoanthrope. It won't fall over when it sits on a misplaced grain of sand.

If anyone wants to see pictures of it on the frame, I have them.

The metal Zoanthrope is one of the most top heavy models ever. I already had six of them from last year, and I'm not planning to replace them at £15.50 a piece. I am moving mine on to 50mm bases instead.

Interestingly, the Venomthrope, another top heavy little bugger, has not been produced in Finecast. I think this might because the tentacles are impossible to do in Finecast. However maybe it will come in a later wave.

Kilkrazy wrote:The metal Zoanthrope is one of the most top heavy models ever. I already had six of them from last year, and I'm not planning to replace them at £15.50 a piece. I am moving mine on to 50mm bases instead.

Interestingly, the Venomthrope, another top heavy little bugger, has not been produced in Finecast. I think this might because the tentacles are impossible to do in Finecast. However maybe it will come in a later wave.

Luckily for me, I have none yet. I was considering the Troll Forged alts until I heard about Finecast. So while they're pricey, I'm not replacing already pricey metals with them.

According to the second wave rumour thread, the Venomthrope is coming in August. which is when I'll be buying mine.

I'll confess I'd already decided to scratch build my own Venomthropes for ease of transport using 2nd edition Zoanthropes (huge bloated head with porous vents for fumes? Yum!), 2nd edition lictor heads and lash whips. I'll have mine on legs too thanks.

Finecast though harped as flexible seems to be very variable in that degree - some parts bend, others will snap like a twig. The lash whips might be bendy or they might shatter on the Venomthrope - either way, finecast or metal it'll still be a pain to transport.

Skriker wrote:It never ceases to amaze me the propensity of GW players to just complain and complain and complain about every little thing GW does.

You realize you're complaining right now, right? Your whole post was one big complaint about people who complain.

I think the level of complaint is representative of how closely attached people feel to the hobby. It's been a big part of many of our lives, and when there is a common conception (as there has been over the last few weeks) that the company is being handled atrociously, then it stands to reason that people will get heated about it.

In particular, I look at how the hobby was when I was a child, and know that if I had been born 15 years later there is no way I would have got into it. There are simply not the entry level options any more, the price for an army to play in the way that GW intends is outlandish, and I worry that the future youngsters brought into the hobby will be purely the domain of that spoilt kid from the Simpsons with the ponytail. You can't even pick up a WD from Smiths any more (the way I was first attracted to the hobby).

So onto Finecast. It doesn't matter how many times you recite "2+2=5", there is no way that a company like Games Workshop should have released a new product, heralded it as a major movement forward in the industry, and then practised such appalling quality control. To someone who can only buy mail order like myself, there is absolutely no way I can risk an international delivery (aside from the embargo, which means such a purchase is not economically feasible anyway) to get hold of new GW stuff. It's almost like they have walked up to me, slapped me in the face and told me to f*** off.

I feel like I have been pushed out through the double doors of a saloon with a hob-nailed boot applied firmly to my backside. I didn't want this, GW had been so much a part of my life growing up and have given me so many hours of enjoyment, but dubious decision after dubious decision have just been impossible to ignore. The company has become an all-consuming carnivore, existing purely to generate short-term profit for dividend returns (everything is done with this in mind, and screw the consequences), and taking advantage of those who want to be part of the hobby but aren't aware of the other options out there.

Other than a core of artists and designers, there is nothing remaining of the company that I was previously a big part of. I hope you can understand why I and so many others are so heated about this issue, and why a not unsubstantial chunk of the demographic will be taking their money elsewhere.