Shame there is no Flayed Lord to turn them into a troops choice, ditto for a named Destroyer Lord. The last two codexes have contained characters of this ilk. GK terminators as troops and Grotesques for the DE.
I'm sure I'll get over it though, especially having what is basically 'Subvert machine' from Apoc (just missing the D3 glancing hits afterwards )
Kroothawk/Yakface, or anyone else who's seen the codex (or even the playtest codex):
I had a question that i kept forgetting to ask before - the new WBB (Resurrection, is it called now?) works on ALL units in the book, not just certain ones, correct? Now my query is this - Do multi-wound models return at full strength, or not? If not, how many wounds do they return with, just one?
Also a rez orb will affect the unit that the lord carrying it is in, does it still have the 6" radius from the lord himself (much akin to sanguinary priests) for friendly units, too?
Thanks, if you can get those answers in, i appreciate it.
Praxiss wrote:I dont think they have. What you state above is basically what they have done. The Lords and ICs have personalities while the warriors, immortals etc are still basically mindless automatons.
From what i understand, the higher up the necron "tree" you go, the more intelligent the units gets. I'm guessing it goes something like:
Lords/ICs - full personalities/goals etc
Praetorians/Triarchs - moderate personality but ties into a specific mission
Wraiths - able to make individual decisions but ultimately deferring the next unit up the tree
Immortals/Death Strike/Tomb Spyders - Respond to stimulei in a pre-programmed fashion, barring overridign orders from higher up
Warriors/Scarabs - no personality, mindless and basically following whatever goal or target set t them until the get new instructions
Again, total guesswork.....
If that is the case there is a question that may very well mess up the entire new fluff (if it actually turns out the way we've read so far).
The simple Necrons, or actually anything below the Praetorian/Triarch level, do they still have any vestiges left of their original personalities (possibly in a totally suppressed state) or are they just the automatons that they are? If the latter is the case, then the fluff part of the Necrons trying to find a "host" to transfer their minds and personalities into will be a little lost since that would only be reserved for the higher ups... not that this would not be possible. Just some more speculation on the fluff.
I also have a question for the almighty Yakface, are the Necron Transports (Ghost Arks) open topped, or nay? It doesn't say they are in your summary, but everyone over on Warseer seems to think so. Thank ye kindly!
Praxiss wrote:Despite the new fluff, as posted above, there is no reason you can't play your army as s silent group of ghostly killers.
Fluff-wise just avoi takign any of the ICs (which has their own distinct personalities apparently) and go with a vanilla OverLord and his silent, shambling horde of doom. This coudl be especially possibel now that warriors area lot cheaper, you might be able to field a moderate horde army of warriors.
It just makes the Necrons a localized threat now though. They used to be on the level of the Tyranids, as there was an all-prevalent Necron threat bent on galactic genocide. Now, it's just 1 Tomb World attacking blah blah Sector. Similar to the Tau.
Giving the Necrons fixed boundries and civilizations was also pretty stupid. They should have just appeared, slaughtered all, then vanished. I imagine Necron cities with Necron shops now manned by Necron shopkeepers selling whatever they trade with the Imperium to other Necron daddies on their way home from a hard days work at the Necron shoe factory.
GW could have given Necron Lords more personality and even introduced other C'Tan for more personality if you wanted less faceless Necrons. Didn't have to completely destroy everything they once were. They really shouldn't even be machines anymore, it holds no purpose. Just make it so the Necrontyr got their skin back.
GW haven't destroyed everything they once were, they've changed and enhanced the Necrons. I'm not deciding about whether I'l' buy them yet, but I REALLY like what has changed. All that has changed is the motive. Before, I didn't think they had a compelling motive, but now they do. They're different from Chaos or the Tyranids, both just want to destroy and consume, the Necrons want to rule, and create. Like the Tau, but less boring or stupid. The best thing is though, the changes allow people to do whatever they want. You can play an enigmatic ruler that wants to help other races, a despotic tyrant that's only out to destroy, or you can play the old Necrons exactly like they were before.
Dr. Delorean wrote:I also have a question for the almighty Yakface, are the Necron Transports (Ghost Arks) open topped, or nay? It doesn't say they are in your summary, but everyone over on Warseer seems to think so. Thank ye kindly!
Check the bottom of this post (it may have slipped through getting added to the front page summary):
Praxiss wrote:Despite the new fluff, as posted above, there is no reason you can't play your army as s silent group of ghostly killers.
Fluff-wise just avoi takign any of the ICs (which has their own distinct personalities apparently) and go with a vanilla OverLord and his silent, shambling horde of doom. This coudl be especially possibel now that warriors area lot cheaper, you might be able to field a moderate horde army of warriors.
It just makes the Necrons a localized threat now though. They used to be on the level of the Tyranids, as there was an all-prevalent Necron threat bent on galactic genocide. Now, it's just 1 Tomb World attacking blah blah Sector. Similar to the Tau.
Giving the Necrons fixed boundries and civilizations was also pretty stupid. They should have just appeared, slaughtered all, then vanished. I imagine Necron cities with Necron shops now manned by Necron shopkeepers selling whatever they trade with the Imperium to other Necron daddies on their way home from a hard days work at the Necron shoe factory.
GW could have given Necron Lords more personality and even introduced other C'Tan for more personality if you wanted less faceless Necrons. Didn't have to completely destroy everything they once were. They really shouldn't even be machines anymore, it holds no purpose. Just make it so the Necrontyr got their skin back.
GW haven't destroyed everything they once were, they've changed and enhanced the Necrons. I'm not deciding about whether I'l' buy them yet, but I REALLY like what has changed. All that has changed is the motive. Before, I didn't think they had a compelling motive, but now they do. They're different from Chaos or the Tyranids, both just want to destroy and consume, the Necrons want to rule, and create. Like the Tau, but less boring or stupid. The best thing is though, the changes allow people to do whatever they want. You can play an enigmatic ruler that wants to help other races, a despotic tyrant that's only out to destroy, or you can play the old Necrons exactly like they were before.
Ill second this and say that blanket super evils that cant be stopped are very, very boring. If there is no nuance or subtlety then its very meaningless. The new Tyranid book added a dimension of this and the direction of this fluff certain helps. There is actually character where stupid wallpaper existed before hand.
JGrand wrote:I haven't see it posted but what are the Immortals armed with? Is it still a superior gun to normal Warriors or has it been toned down?
I believe you have the choice of a 24" tesla str 5 ap 5 assault 1 gun or a 24" rapid fire str 5 gun
Tesla is s5 ap- so good vs hordes, with the tesla rule. Gauss will be rapid fire s5 ap4 so when getting close, has a guaranteed double fire rate and an ap value to ignore most armor other than MEQ. So they're different but tactically sound choices
I wonder if preferred enemy grants re-rolls to hit with shooting AND close combat attacks in 6th ed...seeing as how all rumors say that since 'nids the 5th ed codices have been written with 6th ed in mind. The content of flyers in each book, along with some wonky points costs on certain units, could also lend credence to the rumor.
Otherwise it doesn't make sense for a 1-3 shooting focused unit to have a cc buff, really.
edit - Off topic, i know, but imagine tyranids with twin-linked impaler cannons and rupture cannons (thanks to the hive tyrant's 'old adversary' special rule). Genius!
I just picture the Death Ray from the Doom Scythe doing what railguns should already be doing - Draw a line, every vehicle in that line...dies horribly. Bwahhaha.
tetrisphreak wrote:I just picture the Death Ray from the Doom Scythe doing what railguns should already be doing - Draw a line, every vehicle in that line...dies horribly. Bwahhaha.
Take that, mech spam!
No seriously, it is pretty nasty against mech armies if you position the flyer right. It may sound nastier against infantry...but I'm pretty sure they'll get cover.
I could see a pretty effective list being something like 3-5 night scythes with 2-3 doom scythes, it might be expensive but using the cheaper flyers to pop transports and do some wounds while giving the doom scythes "cover" by shielding them and controlling lanes of fire and then second turn unleashing 3x that crazy beam weapon. Maybe toss in the storm lord for some added awfulness and protection. Not sure the points costs we'd be talking about for a list like that but from Yak's info I can see the flyer kit being VERY popular.
If this has been covered already in the 40+ pages i apologize....
What is this 'mother of all deaths' thing that i keep reading about with the lyche guard/praetorian? Is it an initiative/ strength test or die scenario?
Add me to the pile of new forum members this thread has created. Long time lurker, but finally a member!
Thanks Yakface for all the information so far, and to Kroothawk for organizing it!
Nandred wrote:If this has been covered already in the 40+ pages i apologize....
What is this 'mother of all deaths' thing that i keep reading about with the lyche guard/praetorian? Is it an initiative/ strength test or die scenario?
So far the only place I have seen this mentioned is Heinrich Kemmler's rumors which are on the first page of this thread. I could be mistaken but I'm guessing that this just refers to power weapons and that something was lost in the Polish/French/English translations... Someone correct me if I'm wrong here.
So let me make sure I've got this straight, because I only started Warhammer and Necrons about 6 months ago:
I have 15 Destroyers and 2 Monoliths, but after Nov 5th I will only be able to use 9 and 1?
I'm done. Thanks, GW. I was a player for less than 6 months and I've been screwed. I was really looking forward to some new models, but what the new codex sounds like is the Necrons cannot be viably played without massive reinvestment into the new stuff.
I'm finished with GW.
80 Warriors, 17 Immortals, 15 Destroyers, 20 Scarabs, 2 Monliths, Lord & Destroyer Lord. PM me if you wanna buy some Necrons for cheap.
Pretty much sums up the rest of us who ran the real FA choice, now hearing how they will go to 1-3 hurts alot but hey, maybe they have a way to keep themselves alive like Eternal life or something able to WBB even with no squad...screw it Destroyers are gimped anyhow.
I want to read the actual codex before i make my decision, but i see the Swap Shop being filled with necron trade deals in the near future, which will definitely help those wanting to start necrons, and might help pay the therapy costs for those leaving them.
It does seem odd limiting one of the most popular existing Necron kits to one per army. Thougt GW had moved away from such restrictions so they could, you know, make money.
azazel the cat wrote:So let me make sure I've got this straight, because I only started Warhammer and Necrons about 6 months ago:
I have 15 Destroyers and 2 Monoliths, but after Nov 5th I will only be able to use 9 and 1?
I'm done. Thanks, GW. I was a player for less than 6 months and I've been screwed. I was really looking forward to some new models, but what the new codex sounds like is the Necrons cannot be viably played without massive reinvestment into the new stuff.
I'm finished with GW.
80 Warriors, 17 Immortals, 15 Destroyers, 20 Scarabs, 2 Monliths, Lord & Destroyer Lord. PM me if you wanna buy some Necrons for cheap.
I will laugh my tits off if you sell them all and the new codex is nothing like you think.
Why not wait a wee bit before you go emo on us all eh?
Whatever people are complaining about now will all be different things to complain about when 6th Edition 40K is released next summer. It's the Warhammer Way.
azazel the cat wrote:So let me make sure I've got this straight, because I only started Warhammer and Necrons about 6 months ago:
I have 15 Destroyers and 2 Monoliths, but after Nov 5th I will only be able to use 9 and 1?
I'm done. Thanks, GW. I was a player for less than 6 months and I've been screwed. I was really looking forward to some new models, but what the new codex sounds like is the Necrons cannot be viably played without massive reinvestment into the new stuff.
I'm finished with GW.
80 Warriors, 17 Immortals, 15 Destroyers, 20 Scarabs, 2 Monliths, Lord & Destroyer Lord. PM me if you wanna buy some Necrons for cheap.
You started playing only 6 months ago and chose Necrons??? WHYYYYY
azazel the cat wrote:So let me make sure I've got this straight, because I only started Warhammer and Necrons about 6 months ago:
I have 15 Destroyers and 2 Monoliths, but after Nov 5th I will only be able to use 9 and 1?
I'm done. Thanks, GW. I was a player for less than 6 months and I've been screwed. I was really looking forward to some new models, but what the new codex sounds like is the Necrons cannot be viably played without massive reinvestment into the new stuff.
I'm finished with GW.
80 Warriors, 17 Immortals, 15 Destroyers, 20 Scarabs, 2 Monliths, Lord & Destroyer Lord. PM me if you wanna buy some Necrons for cheap.
I'd wait to trash you models or sell them off until you see an actual codex maybe? I mean, I know it's all about the drama and all...but maybe wait for an actual rulebook?
angelshade00 wrote:I was determined to read all the posts first before posting anything of my own, but every time I read 5 pages the thread has grown by another 5 so I'll just skip the last 10 pages or so and go ahead.
First of all, a big thank you to Kroothawk (for posting initially and editing the first post so all info is there) and to Yakface (for innumerable posts and clarifications). Thanks guys you made me a very happy man.
Most models looks great, even the vehicles. Sure I'd also prefer the Necrons zapping around in teleporters but I really don't mind at all. Given the rules provided by our aforementioned benefactors the Doomsday Ark especially seems to be particularly nasty, as is the Doom Scythe with the Death Ray (over-powered maybe?). The lords and characters seem a bit too flashy for my style but I'll see what I can do about them. I kind of preferred the older, clean and bling-less look of the lords. But still they are cool.
I totally love all of the infantry units, even a few things that may seem like to much like headdresses and loincloths (cloths?!) I suppose can be easily trimmed off or something. The major fail in all this (because something just had to go wrong ) is the unacceptably ugly Flayed Ones. Why did they even bother to change them is beyond me.
I am not too much into the Egyptian names either, but I don't really mind.
The only thing that I am uncertain about, and I suppose the thing most controversy will rise up for, is the fluff. While I agree the fluff was in need of something more to make it stand out a bit, I believe a total rewrite was unnecessary. What lured me to the Necrons in the first place was the faceless, silent, cold threat they introduced. The silent march of an army of immortal killers is much more terrifying than any warcry. Now they can speak and even find reason to ally themselves with others. Like they accept they have been downgraded to second class evil guys. While I am not totally against since I still can play the game "my way" ( I actually think of creating a tombworld that believes that they should be the harbingers of death they once were and may actually try to gather as many C'Tan shards as they can in hopes of merging them together again) I think it could have retained the new idea of more freedom of thought for the Necron Overlords without totally wiping out the C'Tan in the process. It will help if it is well written of course.
One big turn off was at some point in a post (by Yakface I think, but I could be wrong) there was said that some tombworlds even trade with other races.
.....
.....
.....
Trade for what???
Food and water? Not likely.
Technology? Even less likely.
Emperor action figures? Maybe, but i sure hope not.
What would the most technologically advanced race with no physical needs such as nutrition want from any other race? Ever? Anyway I ranted for too long, sorry for the long post everyone. That said, i am still very excited and can't wait for the next couple of weeks to fly. Still hope to see the Spyders and Wraiths too!
This.
Pretty much my reaction to the whole thing. Hell, you even thought of my idea of a Necron Army As for the trading...yeah I got nothing. Can't be tech, as they are the most advanced race. Can't be nutrients, cause they are machines.
People I guess? So they can experiment? Very unlikely though...
Ressources?,like Ores,Precious Metals and other difficulte to get substances?
I don't think that Necrons are really into mine diggin ala Minecraft to get their ressources.
So if said a Tomb World who arn't really the kind to destroy everything,needs a type X of Ores and Metal and that their Tomb World ans't any trace of it,wouldn' it make sense that they trade those precious ressources with a race/planete who can?
They only need to exchange it with some quality yet none military useable technologie(so that it can't be used against them later).
azazel the cat wrote:So let me make sure I've got this straight, because I only started Warhammer and Necrons about 6 months ago:
I have 15 Destroyers and 2 Monoliths, but after Nov 5th I will only be able to use 9 and 1?
I'm finished with GW.
80 Warriors, 17 Immortals, 15 Destroyers, 20 Scarabs, 2 Monliths, Lord & Destroyer Lord. PM me if you wanna buy some Necrons for cheap.
Seems a bit excesive . Why don't you just sell 6 of your Destroyers and use the funds to purchase some of the newer units? I mean, your scarabs, immortals, monos, and warriors are still legit.
kestral wrote:Believe it or not, but machines are much harder to maintain than people, and require a much great resource base. The humans have the right idea - populate everything in sight and the tech will follow. Necrons would need all sorts of refined minerals in huge quantities. Unless they have unlimited energy (and the unlimited data processing you would need to control that energy and make it do what you want), it would make sense to get others to extract, process and even shape things they need. If they are like everything else in 40K, a lot of their stuff probably doesn't work that well.
"Yes, this is assembly plant 4408 that used to make power sources for ghost arks. Sadly, it seems to have gone bonkers in the last million years, so now we trade for the rare isotopes we require...."
Yeah, exactly. TBH the complaints about Necron trade seem like the observations of somebody who gathered their economic outlook from Age of Empires. "They don't need food or precious metals, so what could the possibly be trading for?!?!"
There a zillion things that could be in play. Resources are the big one, but they could also be trading for influence; non-aggression pacts, unrestricted movement, information, etc.
Harriticus wrote:
GW could have given Necron Lords more personality and even introduced other C'Tan for more personality if you wanted less faceless Necrons. Didn't have to completely destroy everything they once were. They really shouldn't even be machines anymore, it holds no purpose. Just make it so the Necrontyr got their skin back.
It's still important that they are machines, because it gives them a tragic and futile quality. Even if the Necron become top dog they will never achieve their desire of being the greatest civilization, because the vast majority of them are mindless husks on autopilot. It's not just their look that's been influenced by Tomb Kings, but also their general storyline; a powerful empire that can never be fully realized because of the devil's bargain that had to be made in order to survive.
azazel the cat wrote:So let me make sure I've got this straight, because I only started Warhammer and Necrons about 6 months ago:
I have 15 Destroyers and 2 Monoliths, but after Nov 5th I will only be able to use 9 and 1?
I'm done. Thanks, GW. I was a player for less than 6 months and I've been screwed. I was really looking forward to some new models, but what the new codex sounds like is the Necrons cannot be viably played without massive reinvestment into the new stuff.
I'm finished with GW.
80 Warriors, 17 Immortals, 15 Destroyers, 20 Scarabs, 2 Monliths, Lord & Destroyer Lord. PM me if you wanna buy some Necrons for cheap.
As the owner of three Carnifexes and two Hive Tyrants I feel your pain, but that is the cost of investing heavily in a skewed and unbalanced army build. If you go all-out on whatever unit is most powerful in a given edition you should expect that eventually your lopsided collection will stop functioning as effectively.
The pic is official. It comes from a local GW newsletter send out too early and posted first on the Brueckenkopf website http://www.brueckenkopf-online.com/?p=46913 It confirms the release 5th November and 4 new plastic boxes, 1 new Finecast box and 4 new Finecast characters. They also announce a free limited product, if you preorder in a GW store.
azazel the cat wrote:So let me make sure I've got this straight, because I only started Warhammer and Necrons about 6 months ago:
I have 15 Destroyers and 2 Monoliths, but after Nov 5th I will only be able to use 9 and 1?
I'm done. Thanks, GW. I was a player for less than 6 months and I've been screwed. I was really looking forward to some new models, but what the new codex sounds like is the Necrons cannot be viably played without massive reinvestment into the new stuff.
I'm finished with GW.
80 Warriors, 17 Immortals, 15 Destroyers, 20 Scarabs, 2 Monliths, Lord & Destroyer Lord. PM me if you wanna buy some Necrons for cheap.
Yeah, what the others said... Take it a bit easy. Sell off some of the Destroyer to fund buying new units. I'm pretty sure there'll be a lot of new Necron players interested in buying them.
And if you don't like that option... Wait for the codex. If you feel the codex has screwed you up when it's released, I'd advise waiting for sixth ed.
We have no idea how the FOC will be there. Perhaps it will be based around point percentages as in WHFB, or perhaps something completely else and unheard of, something that'll fix everything!
Or well, knowing GW, they most likely won't intend to fix anything. But perhaps things will turn for the better anyways!
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Aye looking at the rumours, unless I'm missing something, you can have three Liths as normal.
Didn't Yak say one per FOC?
Hasn't been updated in the first post yet as far as I can see. if it is, that would be more of a mickey take than the Carnifex nerf, as they know most current Necron players have multiple Monoliths, not sure even GW would have the neck to pull that.
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Aye looking at the rumours, unless I'm missing something, you can have three Liths as normal.
Didn't Yak say one per FOC?
Hasn't been updated in the first post yet as far as I can see. if it is, that would be more of a mickey take than the Carnifex nerf, as they know most current Necron players have multiple Monoliths, not sure even GW would have the neck to pull that.
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Aye looking at the rumours, unless I'm missing something, you can have three Liths as normal.
Didn't Yak say one per FOC?
Hasn't been updated in the first post yet as far as I can see. if it is, that would be more of a mickey take than the Carnifex nerf, as they know most current Necron players have multiple Monoliths, not sure even GW would have the neck to pull that.
I am betting YAK meant to say 1 per Force Organization Slot rather than FOC.
Hulksmash wrote:I'd swap the Deathmarks w/the Flayed Ones but the rest seems solid.
How? Deathmarks have the same body and arms as the Immortals. If Deathmarks are Finecast, we have to many boxes. Flayed ones have complicated poses and strong undercuts.
Ah, see I was reading that as Each Vehicle takes up a FoC slot as normal, if it really is a restriction. Well GW just alienated a hell of a lot of their current user base. I'm sure they'll just pull a thumbs up and say 'You can have many as you want in Apocalypse!' Yeah.
They don't really do 0-1 choices anymore so I doubt it. Only Unique units are 0-1 and those are generally characters or assassins that might as well be characters.
I think Yak meant Force Org Choice not Chart but I guess it could be one each. Though I doubt it.
Ah, see I was reading that as Each Vehicle takes up a FoC slot as normal, if it really is a restriction. Well GW just alienated a hell of a lot of their current user base. I'm sure they'll just pull a thumbs up and say 'You can have many as you want in Apocalypse!' Yeah.
Hmm... no, I think you (and Wyoming Fox) were right the first time. 0 - 1 would be incredibly dumb.
So much info I just had to join the party. Been collecting necrons on and off for probably 6 years now. Everyone isnt really finding this whole "trading" thing to be believable but I see a very good reason to do it.
"Illuminor Szeras: The Necrontyr who took the C'Tan's knowledge to do bio-transfer and actually made it a reality...so he's the chief architect within the Necrons for actually making the bio-transference happen. He is a master of technology and can augment D3 units in the army with an augmentation."
Every scientist needs some lab rats. I'm sure some of you have seen the fourth alien movies. Maybe they are receiving organic matter from the races to create a superior hybrid to call their own?
Thanks for all the great info Yak! So much to sift through in this thread.
So, did anyone mention/ask if any of the Cryptic weapons have any AT value? I'm mostly just looking through the leaks and trying to find ranged AT (don't get me wrong, the scarabs are pretty cool, but I just can't see them getting close enough to a Manticore before they're reduced to scrap). Are we still left with Heavy Destroyers and the Doomsday cannon (and, of course, praying for glances)?
GiantSlingshot wrote:Thanks for all the great info Yak! So much to sift through in this thread.
So, did anyone mention/ask if any of the Cryptic weapons have any AT value? I'm mostly just looking through the leaks and trying to find ranged AT (don't get me wrong, the scarabs are pretty cool, but I just can't see them getting close enough to a Manticore before they're reduced to scrap). Are we still left with Heavy Destroyers and the Doomsday cannon (and, of course, praying for glances)?
I would guess the one he called a plasma-mancer would be AT As well as the guy on a scorpion that has a heavy 2 24" melta gun or a Flamer
GiantSlingshot wrote:Thanks for all the great info Yak! So much to sift through in this thread.
So, did anyone mention/ask if any of the Cryptic weapons have any AT value? I'm mostly just looking through the leaks and trying to find ranged AT (don't get me wrong, the scarabs are pretty cool, but I just can't see them getting close enough to a Manticore before they're reduced to scrap). Are we still left with Heavy Destroyers and the Doomsday cannon (and, of course, praying for glances)?
I would guess the one he called a plasma-mancer would be AT As well as the guy on a scorpion that has a heavy 2 24" melta gun or a Flamer
The doom scythe also seems to be built for taking on tanks with STR 10 AP 1. Very glass cannon approach tho.
Triarchs with S6 warscythes won't be too bad at whacking open a stray transport.
GiantSlingshot wrote:Thanks for all the great info Yak! So much to sift through in this thread.
So, did anyone mention/ask if any of the Cryptic weapons have any AT value? I'm mostly just looking through the leaks and trying to find ranged AT (don't get me wrong, the scarabs are pretty cool, but I just can't see them getting close enough to a Manticore before they're reduced to scrap). Are we still left with Heavy Destroyers and the Doomsday cannon (and, of course, praying for glances)?
I would guess the one he called a plasma-mancer would be AT As well as the guy on a scorpion that has a heavy 2 24" melta gun or a Flamer
That's right, the scorpion thing.
Be awesome if the Plasmamancer had some handheld AT. I've just been looking at my BA opponents melta's and my DE opponents Blasters and getting a bit jealous.
What I am curious about are the full stats of the Overlord and the Lesser Lord now. If the lesser lords and cryptecs are 1W, what are the rest of their characteristics and how does the generic Overlord compare to them and the Lycheguard/Praetorians and the old necron lord stats? I'd think it silly to see the (Over)lord keep his WS and BS4 while the lesser lords and the guard/praetorians have that as well.
Really difficult to tell from the pics, but it looks like Immortals and Deathmarks do share the some of the same features, notable shoulders/torso, legs and arms.
Okay, so, I'm jumping in here, so it's rather likely I've missed this...
But I suppose the whole concept of Necrons attempting to seal off the Warp has puffed into smoke? Or has that still retained some footing in the new lore?
Medium of Death wrote:I just remembered that story about the Tau welcoming the Necron's and then being slaughtered.
Seems like that story actually makes sense now, what with all these talking 'crons floating about.
'Crons save Tau from 'Nids. Tau welcome 'Crons. Tau refuse to bow to 'Crons. Death ensues.
I haven't heard that one. I have heard of the Tau welcoming the Dark Eldar.. DE save Tau from 'Nids. Tau welcome DE. DE ask for "ambassador exchange", then demand a large exchage. Tau say no. DE kick the feth out of them.
The Deathmarks seem to have detail where the Immortals have none. This could be due to torsos having interchangeable back halves, but the overall stiff pose of the models tells me two part finecast, not plastic. Maybe the rifles don't leave much room for dynamic assembly.
Flayed Ones on the other hand do look like finecast. Some of that detail doesn't seem possible in plastic.
Hey, not sure if this is useful or anything, but the newsletter from the GW store that I frequent said that on the 5th of november, there's gonna be some sort of scenario that involves a Magos Biologis lab in a strange labyrinth.
Here is what it said exactly. Sorry for the French
Samedi dernier, l’impérium est arriver sur la planète Manza VII par le portail présent sur le vaisseau-monde malan’tai, au cours de l’affrontement, un groupe d’infiltration a passé les lignes ennemies et a pénétré dans l’enceinte du laboratoire du Magos Biologis.
Ce mercredi à 14h00, ces derniers se retrouvent au cœur même du bâtiment dans un labyrinthe de couloirs sombres.
Venez continuer l’aventure qui vous mènera jusqu’à l’engagement apocalyptique final le samedi 5 novembre.
I do agree that the Deathmark kit does look more detailed. If I had to choose between which one is going to be the only finecast box it would be the Flayed ones.
angelshade00 wrote:Flayed Ones...have to be really good rules-wise to get me to buy them...Seriously ugly models. I know I repeat myself sorry guys but really! UGLY!
Too bad I don't have any of the old ones...now those were good looking!
Yeah. The old ones were mint.
I think the new ones have 3 attacks now. With 4+ saves.
They're supposedly a lot cheaper points wise but still...
angelshade00 wrote:Flayed Ones...have to be really good rules-wise to get me to buy them...Seriously ugly models. I know I repeat myself sorry guys but really! UGLY!
Too bad I don't have any of the old ones...now those were good looking!
Overall the codex looks good from the previews. The #1 problem I see with the codex is that scarabs sound too good, and crons will end up like ig with everybody taking 3 of the same fast attack. A multi charge from scarabs can cover a huge distance, and 4 hits will lower the av of transports low enough that massed s4 gauss fire can score plenty of penetrating hits. I like what I se so far, I just have the feeling wraiths and destroyers might become a rare sight.
If the Wraiths have kept their 3++, St6 and are around 35pts or so I can still see a squad or two of 6 with a single large unit of Scarabs. We'll have to see the point values though.
I have one problem with the new cover art. I understand the Necrons have faced millions of years of getting screwed over (or screwing themselves over in most cases), however...
mattyrm wrote: I will laugh my tits off if you sell them all and the new codex is nothing like you think.
Why not wait a wee bit before you go emo on us all eh?
Thank you for the editorial. However, there is nothing 'emo' about it. Quite the opposite, in fact. Very calculated, unemotional. Assuming that Yak is correct in what has been posted (as are we all, it seems) then I will be left holding 6 useless Destroyers and 1 useless Monolith come Nov 5th. That's $250 CAN. Because of these new unit sizes, I feel it's a reasonable assumption that their value -and therefore their price- will decrease considerably. Therefore, I have a better chance of getting a decent return on my investment if I unload it today, rather than gamble by waiting until Nov 5th. And again, since we all seem to be operating with the understanding that Yak is correct, the value decrease seems like less of a gamble and more of a certainty.
nectarprime wrote: You started playing only 6 months ago and chose Necrons??? WHYYYYY
Because as someone completely new to Warhammer 40k, I had no idea they were considered 'weak'. (By the way, I don't. I love the 5th ed. Necrons.) I liked their art design and concept. And I liked the idea that I wouldn't have to spend 5 hours painting each troop, as I don't have that kind of time. Unfortunately, it would appear that the efficient, ponderous, soulless look of the Necrons has been changed to a very ornate, Baroque style. Exactly the opposite of the reason I started with Necrons. But that's a pill I would otherwise be willing to swallow. I can always file off the robots' funny little hats.
mikhaila wrote: I'd wait to trash you models or sell them off until you see an actual codex maybe? I mean, I know it's all about the drama and all...but maybe wait for an actual rulebook?
You do have a point. Perhaps Yak is completely wrong about everything, but I doubt it. Perhaps I'll look at the codex, and then decide whether or not to hold a fire sale outside the nearest GW store on Nov 5th.
wyomingfox wrote: Seems a bit excesive . Why don't you just sell 6 of your Destroyers and use the funds to purchase some of the newer units? I mean, your scarabs, immortals, monos, and warriors are still legit.
For the same reason I don't order a different menu item at full price when the first entree served to me is rotten and there's no refunds. If a player builds a large army according to the existing FOC, and then 6 months later finds out that half of his army can no longer be used, why would that player, as a consumer, ever give said company more money? I paid for my Immortals as Elites, but now the new Immortals are exactly like the old Warriors. I spent $320 CAN on 17 Immortals so that my army would have some more punch with their assault 2 guns, but now my $320 CAN has got me 17 rapid fire guns. What a great investment. There is no reason here for me to make the mistake of purchasing more elite units again.
mattyrm wrote: As the owner of three Carnifexes and two Hive Tyrants I feel your pain, but that is the cost of investing heavily in a skewed and unbalanced army build. If you go all-out on whatever unit is most powerful in a given edition you should expect that eventually your lopsided collection will stop functioning as effectively.
What was unbalanced about it? 2x Heavy choices utilizing 1 of 3 possible options. 3x FA choices utilizing 2 of 3 FA options. 2x Elites choices utilizing 1 of 3 possible options. And lots of troops utilizing 1 of 1 possible options. Are you trying to tell me that despite the FOC, the only way to play properly was to purchase 1 unit of each possible option? If that was the case, I must have missed that page in either the Codex or else the BRB.
What I am very irritated at here is how obvious the new Necron options are not meant to augment existing armies, but to REPLACE them. As in, to re-buy. And that, I will not do.
Maelstrom808 wrote:I have one problem with the new cover art. I understand the Necrons have faced millions of years of getting screwed over (or screwing themselves over in most cases), however...
Its probably just a shield or sword that got cut off, looks funny though
Maelstrom808 wrote:I have one problem with the new cover art. I understand the Necrons have faced millions of years of getting screwed over (or screwing themselves over in most cases), however...
I think he's doing one of these as the space wolves come to kick their ass.
What I am very irritated at here is how obvious the new Necron options are not meant to augment existing armies, but to REPLACE them. As in, to re-buy. And that, I will not do.
Its a bummer, i think your army is in better shape than you are describing but its your choice if you feel cheated somehow.
i only started playing about a year ago, Necrons as well, and i am excited to expand what i already have and change up the army.
I am sorry you feel the way you do, and i hope you keep playing.
Sorry Azazel, but I don't know what you hope to gain with your posting. If I were you I would suck it up and trade some on my minis for others, like other people have suggested. You're making it a bigger deal than it really is. I understand your frustration, but the rest of us are really stoked for the update, and you should instead focus on the good things about it.
Maelstrom808 wrote:I have one problem with the new cover art. I understand the Necrons have faced millions of years of getting screwed over (or screwing themselves over in most cases), however...
Its probably just a shield or sword that got cut off, looks funny though
Oh I agree. Just got a laugh from it though
Hulksmash wrote:If the Wraiths have kept their 3++, St6 and are around 35pts or so I can still see a squad or two of 6 with a single large unit of Scarabs. We'll have to see the point values though.
Not to mention rending, and with lashwhip-like upgrades, they could go a long way in overcoming other unit's cruddy init.
nectarprime wrote:Sorry Azazel, but I don't know what you hope to gain with your posting. If I were you I would suck it up and trade some on my minis for others, like other people have suggested. You're making it a bigger deal than it really is. I understand your frustration, but the rest of us are really stoked for the update, and you should instead focus on the good things about it.
Like giving GW more money? You must work for GW! Saboteur!
If the wording used in Yak's post is to be taken as literally as the nay-sayer's believe, heavy support wise, then it would also follow that there can only be EITHER a SINGLE C'Tan shard OR a SINGLE Triach Stalker per ARMY.
We know that Yak has said earlier that one can field MULTIPLE C'tan, with the caveat being they can't share a special power. So, either Yak is including rules that contradict themselves EXPLICITLY, or you are misinterpretting his wording on the Heavy Support Vehicle section.
Cue the complaints for "WHAT!? ONLY ONE STALKER!?!?"
azazel the cat wrote:Assuming that Yak is correct in what has been posted (as are we all, it seems) then I will be left holding 6 useless Destroyers and 1 useless Monolith come Nov 5th.
Look on the bright side: You're still new to 'Crons, so you don't own any Pariahs like the rest of us. They're not even in the new Codex.
Flashman wrote:Hmm... no, I think you (and Wyoming Fox) were right the first time. 0 - 1 would be incredibly dumb.
The concept of limiting new purchases is alien to GW, as it should be to every business in the world.
Limiting the utility of old purchases is another matter (all Destroyer armies, 'Fex spam etc).
On a slightly unrelated matter, the Deathmarks are likely finecast as they don't share torsos with Immortals/Praetorians.
Necrons torsos are two-piece; front-plate and back-plate. All that is necessary for Imms/DMs to have differerent torsos is an extra 5 front plates in the kit.
The circled detail in the zoomed Photoshop comparison would be inclusive to the hypothetical front-plate bit, so by itself it's not an indication of Finecast.
Edit: I think the "running" legs are a pretty rock-solid indication that these are a shared kit. Look at the middle Deathmark, and compare it to the first and middle Immortals in the battlefield picture, or the first Immortal in the white background picture. Why would a set of Finecast legs exactly duplicate a pose that has already been rendered in plastic? Its non-sensical to assume it would be intentional, and would be an enormous coincidence/oversight if it was accidental.
azazel the cat wrote:Assuming that Yak is correct in what has been posted (as are we all, it seems) then I will be left holding 6 useless Destroyers and 1 useless Monolith come Nov 5th.
Look on the bright side: You're still new to 'Crons, so you don't own any Pariahs like the rest of us. They're not even in the new Codex.
This is true, but on another note. I don't understand why you (azezel) can't just sell your excess destroyers to someone that is interested in a new necron army. You'd get back a fair share and still have plenty to use. Yak hasn't confirmed it, but it's pretty widely accepted that they aren't limiting 'liths to just 1 per list. So you can keep both without concern there.
I just don't see why it has to be I sell every thing now because GW made a few destroyers unusable for me.
Hox wrote:"Illuminor Szeras: The Necrontyr who took the C'Tan's knowledge to do bio-transfer and actually made it a reality...so he's the chief architect within the Necrons for actually making the bio-transference happen. He is a master of technology and can augment D3 units in the army with an augmentation."
Every scientist needs some lab rats. I'm sure some of you have seen the fourth alien movies. Maybe they are receiving organic matter from the races to create a superior hybrid to call their own?
That makes sense. Half-robot, half-organic. But rejected and hated by both. A pariah, if you will... oh. Right.
Hox wrote:So did everyone miss my post or is everybody just willing to respond to everyone but me?
It's this right?
So much info I just had to join the party. Been collecting necrons on and off for probably 6 years now. Everyone isnt really finding this whole "trading" thing to be believable but I see a very good reason to do it.
"Illuminor Szeras: The Necrontyr who took the C'Tan's knowledge to do bio-transfer and actually made it a reality...so he's the chief architect within the Necrons for actually making the bio-transference happen. He is a master of technology and can augment D3 units in the army with an augmentation."
Every scientist needs some lab rats. I'm sure some of you have seen the fourth alien movies. Maybe they are receiving organic matter from the races to create a superior hybrid to call their own?
Well, yes that makes sense actually. But the question is : What would the necrons give to the clients? And also, would the clients be that willing to give away their own people?
-Orks will beat the crap outta them at first sight
-Nids are unusable
-Chaos is Chaos
-Tau still remember what the DE did to them
-Eldar hate them
-IoM hates them. And any governor who deals with them will prolly get branded a traitor.
Really, it's just easier for the Crons to just abduct them.
And besides, I do believe in a earlier post it did say that the Crons weren't trading; they were receiving tributes.
His Master's Voice wrote:The Deathmarks seem to have detail where the Immortals have none. This could be due to torsos having interchangeable back halves, but the overall stiff pose of the models tells me two part finecast, not plastic. Maybe the rifles don't leave much room for dynamic assembly.
This is a different shoulder pad part, like Praetorians get additional parts to the shoulder. No other option fits the 4 plastic plus 1 Finecast box statement.
@azazel the cat: Sorry that you started with a destructor spam list. Not all spam lists work with the next Codex and common sense and rumours talked about a Necron Codex soon even when you started. 2 Monoliths are no problem as said many times, the rest is still good for future Apocalypse games. Now enjoy the boost in new miniatures, new units and new enhanced background for the army you love.
@Hox: One version why trade (by a FEW Necron Lords) makes sense, because "some Necron Lords are obsessed with finding the perfect flesh bodies to transfer their sentience back into." Other things Necrons might want to buy: One named character is a collector, all want information about how to fight craftworld Alaitoc.
@Maelstrom808: Not sure if serious. But that "long face" is obviously a part of the shield, not fully seen because the pic is cut off there.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Samedi dernier, l’impérium est arriver sur la planète Manza VII par le portail présent sur le vaisseau-monde malan’tai, au cours de l’affrontement, un groupe d’infiltration a passé les lignes ennemies et a pénétré dans l’enceinte du laboratoire du Magos Biologis.
Ce mercredi à 14h00, ces derniers se retrouvent au cœur même du bâtiment dans un labyrinthe de couloirs sombres.
Venez continuer l’aventure qui vous mènera jusqu’à l’engagement apocalyptique final le samedi 5 novembre.
My translation:
"Last saturday, the Imperium arrived on the planet Manza VII via the portal on the craftworld Malan'tai. During the conflict, one infliltrating group passed the enemy lines and entered the center? of the Magos Biologis laboratory.
This Saturday at 2pm, the latter group finds itself in the very heart of the building in a labyrinth of dark colours.
Come to continue this adventure which leads you to the final apocalyptic battle on 5th November."
Hox wrote:"Illuminor Szeras: The Necrontyr who took the C'Tan's knowledge to do bio-transfer and actually made it a reality...so he's the chief architect within the Necrons for actually making the bio-transference happen. He is a master of technology and can augment D3 units in the army with an augmentation."
Every scientist needs some lab rats. I'm sure some of you have seen the fourth alien movies. Maybe they are receiving organic matter from the races to create a superior hybrid to call their own?
That makes sense. Half-robot, half-organic. But rejected and hated by both. A pariah, if you will... oh. Right.
Hox wrote:So much info I just had to join the party. Been collecting necrons on and off for probably 6 years now. Everyone isnt really finding this whole "trading" thing to be believable but I see a very good reason to do it.
"Illuminor Szeras: The Necrontyr who took the C'Tan's knowledge to do bio-transfer and actually made it a reality...so he's the chief architect within the Necrons for actually making the bio-transference happen. He is a master of technology and can augment D3 units in the army with an augmentation."
Every scientist needs some lab rats. I'm sure some of you have seen the fourth alien movies. Maybe they are receiving organic matter from the races to create a superior hybrid to call their own?
Flashman wrote:@ azazel the cat - After some discussion, I think we're fairly confident that Yak meant 1 Monolith per FOCslot
There is absolutely no way GW would restrict a big, expensive, imposing looking vehicle for just 1 per army. Presumably, they still want to keep selling Monoliths.
I know they don't get along culturally, but the new way they're taking them I could see many different racing paying political tributes to the necron race.
I can believe that's the cover art on account of how much detail and action it shows, but mainly because of all the brand-new units there. If that is the cover art (which it most likely is), then I definitely approve.
hollowmirror wrote:This is true, but on another note. I don't understand why you (azezel) can't just sell your excess destroyers to someone that is interested in a new necron army. You'd get back a fair share and still have plenty to use. Yak hasn't confirmed it, but it's pretty widely accepted that they aren't limiting 'liths to just 1 per list. So you can keep both without concern there.
I just don't see why it has to be I sell every thing now because GW made a few destroyers unusable for me.
I REALLY can't imagine Monoliths becoming 0-1. Not least because Yak says 'All Vehicles: 1 per FOC ', but also a result of their popularity, symbolism and toughness-nerf, it seems highly unlikely to me.
As to your destroyer problem, you could swap them with someone/sell them, convert them to heavies, save them for apocalypse and so on... 6 extra destroyers (whilst understandably unfavourable) isn't the end of the world man, there's solutions.
H.B.M.C. wrote:
azazel the cat wrote:Assuming that Yak is correct in what has been posted (as are we all, it seems) then I will be left holding 6 useless Destroyers and 1 useless Monolith come Nov 5th.
Look on the bright side: You're still new to 'Crons, so you don't own any Pariahs like the rest of us. They're not even in the new Codex.
True... If only they would make excellent counts-as for Lychguard and Crypteks. And even Lords or Praetorians.
Wasn't there supposed to be a "Monsterous Creature" for the Necrons? Like the GK got the big knight, DE get Talos/Chronos. I know the FW centipede thing and the Tomb Spiders are big and pretty cool and big but I thought there was a rumor about something BIG.
I can believe that's the cover art on account of how much detail and action it shows, but mainly because of all the brand-new units there. If that is the cover art (which it most likely is), then I definitely approve.
Holy Crap...That looks menacingly epic. And proof that necrons are still the bad guys. As they should be.
And that's what I said. I see you like my reaction
Hox wrote:So did everyone miss my post or is everybody just willing to respond to everyone but me?
It's this right?
So much info I just had to join the party. Been collecting necrons on and off for probably 6 years now. Everyone isnt really finding this whole "trading" thing to be believable but I see a very good reason to do it.
"Illuminor Szeras: The Necrontyr who took the C'Tan's knowledge to do bio-transfer and actually made it a reality...so he's the chief architect within the Necrons for actually making the bio-transference happen. He is a master of technology and can augment D3 units in the army with an augmentation."
Every scientist needs some lab rats. I'm sure some of you have seen the fourth alien movies. Maybe they are receiving organic matter from the races to create a superior hybrid to call their own?
Well, yes that makes sense actually. But the question is : What would the necrons give to the clients? And also, would the clients be that willing to give away their own people?
-Orks will beat the crap outta them at first sight
-Nids are unusable
-Chaos is Chaos
-Tau still remember what the DE did to them
-Eldar hate them
-IoM hates them. And any governor who deals with them will prolly get branded a traitor.
Really, it's just easier for the Crons to just abduct them.
And besides, I do believe in a earlier post it did say that the Crons weren't trading; they were receiving tributes.
To continue my aliens reference, mercenaries may trade captured people for money and tech. Necrons seem to hate orks now and from what I read in the nid codex I think they avoid the necrons for the lack of organic material. All the other races could have splintered factions who trade either bodies themselves or some of the biological technology they have. Dark eldar can grow bodies in tubes and the IoM have many man/machine hybrids. If I was a robot who wanted to be a person, I would look into that.
Muggzy wrote:Wasn't there supposed to be a "Monsterous Creature" for the Necrons? Like the GK got the big knight, DE get Talos/Chronos. I know the FW centipede thing and the Tomb Spiders are big and pretty cool and big but I thought there was a rumor about something BIG.
It's either going to be the Triarch Stalker, the C'tan shard, or both.
azazel the cat wrote:
What was unbalanced about it? 2x Heavy choices utilizing 1 of 3 possible options. 3x FA choices utilizing 2 of 3 FA options. 2x Elites choices utilizing 1 of 3 possible options. And lots of troops utilizing 1 of 1 possible options. Are you trying to tell me that despite the FOC, the only way to play properly was to purchase 1 unit of each possible option? If that was the case, I must have missed that page in either the Codex or else the BRB.
What I am very irritated at here is how obvious the new Necron options are not meant to augment existing armies, but to REPLACE them. As in, to re-buy. And that, I will not do.
Maxing out any FOC category with a single type of unit is asking for trouble in future editions. "Properly" is a loaded word because it has no consistent definition. Evidently, your version of "proper" play was maxing out on the most powerful units in the book, buying multiples of the same thing, and expecting them to keep being the most powerful units in every future iteration of the Necron army (I must have missed that page in the Codex or BRB).
And, while I admit this is a somewhat harsh/borderline unfair stance, if you'd have done your research before starting Necrons you probably would have discovered they were coming up in the batting order, and you could have limited your purchases.
I'm not a big fan of the new "cover art". Too much red in my opinion.
Plus I was wondering, somewhere in Yak's post it said that Triarch and Lychguard came in the same box, is that true?
Also, do one of the HQ choices make any Elites or Heavy Support or Fast Attack into Troops?
I have a feeling that this whole "1 per FOC" thing from Yakface is a misunderstanding. Earlier rumors from BoK indicated that you could take up to three C'Tan shards (one per Elite slot). I have a feeling that there was an oversight on Yak's part and he forgot to include the word "slot" after "FOC". Call it hopeful thinking, but it just doesn't jibe with what we'd already heard from BoK.
Kroothawk wrote:
This is a different shoulder pad part, like Praetorians get additional parts to the shoulder. No other option fits the 4 plastic plus 1 Finecast box statement.
It's not a shoulder pad, it would be a shoulder detail incorporated in the optional chest-plate.
Ain't you guys assembled Warriors before? The shoulders are part of the torso pieces, I don't see why this would be different.
Altruizine wrote:It's not a shoulder pad, it would be a shoulder detail incorporated in the optional chest-plate.
Ain't you guys assembled Warriors before? The shoulders are part of the torso pieces, I don't see why this would be different.
Haven't assembled a Deathmark yet, so I don't know where the shoulder pad is attached to.
I'm wondering where the main anti tank ability of the army is going to come from. The Scarabs seem pretty potent but what about at range? Heavy Destroyers seem so-so (even with a point decrease) and the Doomsday Cannon isn't really anti tank (more anti heavy infantry). Besides the 2 shot multimelta on the scorpion walker, what will the go to be?
Altruizine wrote:Maxing out any FOC category with a single type of unit is asking for trouble in future editions. "Properly" is a loaded word because it has no consistent definition. Evidently, your version of "proper" play was maxing out on the most powerful units in the book, buying multiples of the same thing, and expecting them to keep being the most powerful units in every future iteration of the Necron army (I must have missed that page in the Codex or BRB).
"Dear 40k customer; we have released rules stating that you may field anywhere from 0-3 units of Heavy Support, which may be selected from any number of our three Heavy Support options. However, if you select only two different Heavy Support options, please be mindful that we may make one of those options another Fast Attack choice instead, and make one of the other Heavy Support options useless to you. Next time, purchase Tomb Spyders instead."
Altruizine wrote:And, while I admit this is a somewhat harsh/borderline unfair stance, if you'd have done your research before starting Necrons you probably would have discovered they were coming up in the batting order, and you could have limited your purchases.
You are correct. I should have listened to all of those rumours about a new Necron codex coming out in Jan 2009, December 2009 or Jan 2010, definitely in August 2010, certainly Sept 2010 and December 2010, confirmed for Jan 2011 and April 2011. However, if the foolproof hindsight advice you really mean to give is that I should have picked a different army to begin with, well, I'm starting to agree with you.
JOHIRA wrote:Ghost Ark - Uh oh! Look at that thing from the front! Looks like Necrons are no longer BFFs with the Blood Angels. Now it's the Ultramarines' turn to spend lazy afternoons looking up at clouds with their new Necron buddies!
I'm curious how many immortals/warriors can take upgraded weapons per unit. Also what the named guy's augments do. Are they like the GK grand strategy? What does it grant?
Why all the hate on the personality/interactions with other species? I mean i was peeved on the BA/Cron team up because I didn't know why they would do so.
Knowing that the Crons are led by overlords who have personality helps understand. But I think people are having a diconnect and thinking Necron=robot=calculating terminator death machines.
Remember the Necrons might be metal and robotic in a way but their minds are NOT computers (though the lesser ones are merley drone automatons). The necrons lords are essentially full personalities in a metal shell and aren't some augmented computers with arms now. Way I see it they are somewhere around Eldar in intelligence but that doesn't mean that they are inorganic binary calculators.
Altruizine wrote:Maxing out any FOC category with a single type of unit is asking for trouble in future editions. "Properly" is a loaded word because it has no consistent definition. Evidently, your version of "proper" play was maxing out on the most powerful units in the book, buying multiples of the same thing, and expecting them to keep being the most powerful units in every future iteration of the Necron army (I must have missed that page in the Codex or BRB).
"Dear 40k customer; we have released rules stating that you may field anywhere from 0-3 units of Heavy Support, which may be selected from any number of our three Heavy Support options. However, if you select only two different Heavy Support options, please be mindful that we may make one of those options another Fast Attack choice instead, and make one of the other Heavy Support options useless to you. Next time, purchase Tomb Spyders instead."
Altruizine wrote:And, while I admit this is a somewhat harsh/borderline unfair stance, if you'd have done your research before starting Necrons you probably would have discovered they were coming up in the batting order, and you could have limited your purchases.
You are correct. I should have listened to all of those rumours about a new Necron codex coming out in Jan 2009, December 2009 or Jan 2010, definitely in August 2010, certainly Sept 2010 and December 2010, confirmed for Jan 2011 and April 2011. However, if the foolproof hindsight advice you really mean to give is that I should have picked a different army to begin with, well, I'm starting to agree with you.
The Monolith isn't useless. It's still AV14, and it still has a lot of firepower. Hell, it even has a special attack where any enemy with 6" has to pass a characteristic test or get instakilled.
It's no longer immune to melta...so what? Neither do most vehicles.
QUESTIONS@Yakface:
-Is the walker really AV 11? that's weak. Is the walker bigger than a dred?
-Are the preatorians, wraiths, and lychguard on 28 or 40mm bases? Also are overlords on 40?
-Is there a statline change in the Spyders at all?
-WHAT are the anti-tank weaponry in the codex? it seems like the only ones are a heat ray on a walker, a big gun on a flyer, big gun on a skimmer? Do standard infantry have any decent anti-tank? i'm a bit worried about this.
-Is the normal statline real slow? like are we looking at I2-3 across the board?
I get the feeling that there are more options than 2 builds in some of these units, here's to hoping!
CthuluIsSpy wrote: The Monolith isn't useless. It's still AV14, and it still has a lot of firepower. Hell, it even has a special attack where any enemy with 6" has to pass a characteristic test or get instakilled.
It's no longer immune to melta...so what? Neither do most vehicles.
Most vehicles don't cost 200 points when they can be outrun by foot troops.
However, if Yak's post about all vehicles being 0-1 is incorrect, then there is some humour value to fielding a wall of roombas against infantry.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: The Monolith isn't useless. It's still AV14, and it still has a lot of firepower. Hell, it even has a special attack where any enemy with 6" has to pass a characteristic test or get instakilled.
It's no longer immune to melta...so what? Neither do most vehicles.
Most vehicles don't cost 200 points when they can be outrun by foot troops.
However, if Yak's post about all vehicles being 0-1 is incorrect, then there is some humour value to fielding a wall of roombas against infantry.
And it's no longer 235 points. There's been a reduction.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:It's no longer immune to melta...so what? Neither do most vehicles.
Are there any non-marine vehicles that are immune to melta now? The only ones I know of offhand are that one Land Raider, and what one poster here delightfully called the derp raven.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:It's no longer immune to melta...so what? Neither do most vehicles.
Are there any non-marine vehicles that are immune to melta now? The only ones I know of offhand are that one Land Raider, and what one poster here delightfully called the derp raven.
Predators, Rhinos, landspeeders and Razorbacks are immune to melta?
That's new to my ears
Wait, I'm confused, are you saying that only marine vehicles are immune to melta, or that there aren't any vehicles immune to melta?
Cuz I'm pretty sure LR can still be melta'd
Altruizine wrote:Maxing out any FOC category with a single type of unit is asking for trouble in future editions. "Properly" is a loaded word because it has no consistent definition. Evidently, your version of "proper" play was maxing out on the most powerful units in the book, buying multiples of the same thing, and expecting them to keep being the most powerful units in every future iteration of the Necron army (I must have missed that page in the Codex or BRB).
"Dear 40k customer; we have released rules stating that you may field anywhere from 0-3 units of Heavy Support, which may be selected from any number of our three Heavy Support options. However, if you select only two different Heavy Support options, please be mindful that we may make one of those options another Fast Attack choice instead, and make one of the other Heavy Support options useless to you. Next time, purchase Tomb Spyders instead."
Altruizine wrote:And, while I admit this is a somewhat harsh/borderline unfair stance, if you'd have done your research before starting Necrons you probably would have discovered they were coming up in the batting order, and you could have limited your purchases.
You are correct. I should have listened to all of those rumours about a new Necron codex coming out in Jan 2009, December 2009 or Jan 2010, definitely in August 2010, certainly Sept 2010 and December 2010, confirmed for Jan 2011 and April 2011. However, if the foolproof hindsight advice you really mean to give is that I should have picked a different army to begin with, well, I'm starting to agree with you.
Sorry your Bitter, dont take it out on the forum posters...
CthuluIsSpy wrote:It's no longer immune to melta...so what? Neither do most vehicles.
Are there any non-marine vehicles that are immune to melta now? The only ones I know of offhand are that one Land Raider, and what one poster here delightfully called the derp raven.
Predators, Rhinos, landspeeders and Razorbacks are immune to melta?
That's new to my ears
Wait, I'm confused, are you saying that only marine vehicles are immune to melta, or that there aren't any vehicles immune to melta?
Cuz I'm pretty sure LR can still be melta'd
Please read what I wrote before responding to it. Thank you.
QUESTIONS@Yakface:
-Is the walker really AV 11? that's weak. Is the walker bigger than a dred?
-Are the preatorians, wraiths, and lychguard on 28 or 40mm bases? Also are overlords on 40?
-Is there a statline change in the Spyders at all?
-WHAT are the anti-tank weaponry in the codex? it seems like the only ones are a heat ray on a walker, a big gun on a flyer, big gun on a skimmer? Do standard infantry have any decent anti-tank? i'm a bit worried about this.
-Is the normal statline real slow? like are we looking at I2-3 across the board?
I get the feeling that there are more options than 2 builds in some of these units, here's to hoping!
As for AV weapons I can answer this, the rumours say that most if not all Gauss weapons glance on pen rolls of a 6. So if you have 10 warriors and you shoot something you are bound to get one or two glances. This might not seem like much but in most cases it prevents the vehicle from doing anything and sometimes it might even destroy a vehicle or two if it doesn't immobilize or take their weapon away.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:It's no longer immune to melta...so what? Neither do most vehicles.
Are there any non-marine vehicles that are immune to melta now? The only ones I know of offhand are that one Land Raider, and what one poster here delightfully called the derp raven.
Predators, Rhinos, landspeeders and Razorbacks are immune to melta?
That's new to my ears
Wait, I'm confused, are you saying that only marine vehicles are immune to melta, or that there aren't any vehicles immune to melta?
Cuz I'm pretty sure LR can still be melta'd
Please read what I wrote before responding to it. Thank you.
Yeah sorry, I completely misread that.
Yes, only the Stormraven is immune to meltas.
I never heard of Land Raiders being immune, however.
IronfrontAlex wrote:Why all the hate on the personality/interactions with other species? I mean i was peeved on the BA/Cron team up because I didn't know why they would do so.
Knowing that the Crons are led by overlords who have personality helps understand. But I think people are having a diconnect and thinking Necron=robot=calculating terminator death machines.
Remember the Necrons might be metal and robotic in a way but their minds are NOT computers (though the lesser ones are merley drone automatons). The necrons lords are essentially full personalities in a metal shell and aren't some augmented computers with arms now. Way I see it they are somewhere around Eldar in intelligence but that doesn't mean that they are inorganic binary calculators.
You are just forgetting that Necrons (even Lords) actually WERE simple (in a manner of speaking) automatons, their minds trapped in a metal shell and enslaved by the C'Tan, and then forced to reap the galaxy's living to sate their immortal hunger...before the re-write we are about to see soon. Probably Lords always had a bigger freedom of movement and choice but still they were enslaved in the most absolute way - drained of their will. Honestly this was something I liked about the Necrons.
As I said before however, this change will not stop me from playing them.
By the way, in the cover art (if it is indeed the cover art) they pretty much all show to be holding weapons with the traditional glowrods. Think they might actually stick around? I wouldn't mind either way, but I will really be bugged if I have to paint over all glowrods in order to fit in with the rest of them (not that I absolutely have to).
A valuable lesson I learned tha tis going to help me in regars to the necron release is to wait until all the figures I would like to use are out. I bought in heavily to the initial wave of DE even though it wasn't the list that appealed to me. In the end, the lists that appealed to me the most were not initially available or came out in a medium I do not prefer to purchase. Same with Space Wolves for that matter.
This army intrigues me, but I will buy the codex, muck about with a couple lists and proxy a few games, and then wait to see if/ when and in what material the lists that appeal to me are released.
As it stands, I am optomistic that the skin walkers are going to be the only models in resin, and that the unreleased models may be soon on the horizon.
However:
“Hope is the worst of evils, for it prolongs the torment of man”
Friedrich Nietzsche
CthuluIsSpy wrote:I never heard of Land Raiders being immune, however.
The only one, so far as I know of, is the Land Raider Achilles. Not only is it rare, it actually kinda sucks.... so effectively, I think the only model that is immune to melta is the Stormraven. Is that right?
Kendo wrote:A valuable lesson I learned tha tis going to help me in regars to the necron release is to wait until all the figures I would like to use are out. I bought in heavily to the initial wave of DE even though it wasn't the list that appealed to me. In the end, the lists that appealed to me the most were not initially available or came out in a medium I do not prefer to purchase. Same with Space Wolves for that matter.
This army intrigues me, but I will buy the codex, muck about with a couple lists and proxy a few games, and then wait to see if/ when and in what material the lists that appeal to me are released.
As it stands, I am optomistic that the skin walkers are going to be the only models in resin, and that the unreleased models may be soon on the horizon.
However:
“Hope is the worst of evils, for it prolongs the torment of man”
Friedrich Nietzsche
Cheers to hope. Reminds me of a discussion with a friend I had a few years back.
Me (optimistic mood): Hope will be the last to die!
Her (pessimistic mood): It will still die though...
CthuluIsSpy wrote:I never heard of Land Raiders being immune, however.
The only one, so far as I know of, is the Land Raider Achilles. Not only is it rare, it actually kinda sucks.... so effectively, I think the only model that is immune to melta is the Stormraven. Is that right?
Yep that sounds about right. Well, if we want to go FW, I guess you can throw in the Caetus ram as well.
So that's...2 or 3 vehicles. One of which is in the normal game.
actually after I thought about it that doorway power could be really a angry power in a fair amount of instances. Against an enemy like orks I could get a ton of models in a 6"radius. and at only base strength 3, I'd have good odds to clean out about 50% of everything that was within range.
plus with proper placement you can force a test on many specific enemy models they aren't going to enjoy the chance of losing on a 5+
CthuluIsSpy wrote:I never heard of Land Raiders being immune, however.
The only one, so far as I know of, is the Land Raider Achilles. Not only is it rare, it actually kinda sucks.... so effectively, I think the only model that is immune to melta is the Stormraven. Is that right?
Yep that sounds about right. Well, if we want to go FW, I guess you can throw in the Caetus ram as well.
So that's...2 or 3 vehicles. One of which is in the normal game.
Then I guess I feel a little less bad about the pseudo-nerfing of the Monolith.
QUESTIONS@Yakface:
-Is the walker really AV 11? that's weak. Is the walker bigger than a dred?
-Are the preatorians, wraiths, and lychguard on 28 or 40mm bases? Also are overlords on 40?
-Is there a statline change in the Spyders at all?
-WHAT are the anti-tank weaponry in the codex? it seems like the only ones are a heat ray on a walker, a big gun on a flyer, big gun on a skimmer? Do standard infantry have any decent anti-tank? i'm a bit worried about this.
-Is the normal statline real slow? like are we looking at I2-3 across the board?
I get the feeling that there are more options than 2 builds in some of these units, here's to hoping!
In response to some of your questions:
- They have Quantum Shielding; so they are AV13 until their 1st penetrating hit(?) IIRC.
- They are all 28mm I think; the images display the Lychguard and Preatorians on 28mm I think, whilst the wraiths don't have new models (yet?) so will remain the same.
- Scarabs are LETHAL anti-tank now, theres the [Heavy] Destroyers, gauss glancing on a 6, barges, arks, new Heavy Support Str10-hitting flyer, rending wraiths, monolith (which can particle whip whenever), any fancy wargear on the HQ's and presumably other stuff. They should be OK for anti-tank...
hollowmirror wrote:actually after I thought about it that doorway power could be really devastating power in a fair amount of instances. Against an enemy like orks I could get a ton of models in a 6"radius. and at only base strength 3, I'd have good odds to clean out about 50% of everything that was within range.
plus with proper placement you can force a test on many specific enemy models they aren't going to enjoy the chance of losing on a 5+
Yep, and god help anyone who tries to charge it, and fails to do any damage.
angelshade00 wrote:Speaking of FW I would so much have loved seeing the Tomb Stalker in the codex...but I suppose we can all stop dreaming about it. That model is sweet.
QUESTIONS@Yakface:
-Is the walker really AV 11? that's weak. Is the walker bigger than a dred?
-Are the preatorians, wraiths, and lychguard on 28 or 40mm bases? Also are overlords on 40?
-Is there a statline change in the Spyders at all?
-WHAT are the anti-tank weaponry in the codex? it seems like the only ones are a heat ray on a walker, a big gun on a flyer, big gun on a skimmer? Do standard infantry have any decent anti-tank? i'm a bit worried about this.
-Is the normal statline real slow? like are we looking at I2-3 across the board?
I get the feeling that there are more options than 2 builds in some of these units, here's to hoping!
In response to some of your questions:
- They have Quantum Shielding; so they are AV13 until their 1st penetrating hit(?) IIRC.
- They are all 28mm I think; the images display the Lychguard and Preatorians on 28mm I think, whilst the wraiths don't have new models (yet?) so will remain the same.
- Scarabs are LETHAL anti-tank now, theres the [Heavy] Destroyers, gauss glancing on a 6, barges, arks, new Heavy Support Str10-hitting flyer, rending wraiths, monolith (which can particle whip whenever), any fancy wargear on the HQ's and presumably other stuff. They should be OK for anti-tank...
And don't forget the Special IC who can possess vehicles.
Anyone who doesn't like the green rod thing in their armies and has (or will get) a monolith that is not yet put together, drop me a line; I think I'm going to fit my transports with teleportation portals.
angelshade00 wrote:Flayed Ones...have to be really good rules-wise to get me to buy them...Seriously ugly models. I know I repeat myself sorry guys but really! UGLY!
Too bad I don't have any of the old ones...now those were good looking!
After having read the past 40 something pages of this thread over the last couple of days I have to say I'm excited about the way Necrons are changing. In the past I loved some of the fluff that came out but the army itself seemed... less than inspiring to me (although the ease of a passable paint job made it ok).
From the sneak peeks of the fluff and some of the miniature pictures it looks like we're getting a better glance at the power of the Necrontyr and some of their culture pre-decline rather than the c'tan whipped Necron husks of previous fluff.
For now looks like I'm one of the many eagerly anticipating the new miniatures, consider the band wagon well and truly jumped on.
Sorry about that, FOC = Force Org CHOICE (not chart) is what I was thinking in my head. I'll update the post to remove the abbreviation when I get the chance.
azazel the cat wrote:So let me make sure I've got this straight, because I only started Warhammer and Necrons about 6 months ago:
I have 15 Destroyers and 2 Monoliths, but after Nov 5th I will only be able to use 9 and 1?
I'm done. Thanks, GW. I was a player for less than 6 months and I've been screwed. I was really looking forward to some new models, but what the new codex sounds like is the Necrons cannot be viably played without massive reinvestment into the new stuff.
I'm finished with GW.
80 Warriors, 17 Immortals, 15 Destroyers, 20 Scarabs, 2 Monliths, Lord & Destroyer Lord. PM me if you wanna buy some Necrons for cheap.
I will laugh my tits off if you sell them all and the new codex is nothing like you think.
Why not wait a wee bit before you go emo on us all eh?
I agree, wait for the book before you go bonkers lol.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If that is the cover art its ok, but I cant say I have the "Holy crap that epic" feel like some seem to have.
Just Dave wrote:- Scarabs are LETHAL anti-tank now, theres the [Heavy] Destroyers, gauss glancing on a 6, barges, arks, new Heavy Support Str10-hitting flyer, rending wraiths, monolith (which can particle whip whenever), any fancy wargear on the HQ's and presumably other stuff. They should be OK for anti-tank...
With the exception of the Heavy Destroyers and the Monolith Ring Pop, though, all the rest of the weapons you're talking about have a range of 0-24". There's not a whole lot of ranged anti-tank. If you've got to get within 24" to destroy a tank, then you can probably be torrented or charged by whatever it is carrying. I think the scarab swarms are going to be really interesting, but I'm also a bit leery of what I see of the codex's anti-tank capabilities.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:It's no longer immune to melta...so what? Neither do most vehicles.
Are there any non-marine vehicles that are immune to melta now? The only ones I know of offhand are that one Land Raider, and what one poster here delightfully called the derp raven.
There is one non-marine vehicle immune to melta that I can think of, and am surprised no one else mentioned. Eldar Wave Serpents. Their energy fields prevent any shot from being above S8 and you only get 1d6 for armour pen against it, so long as it's a shooting attack and it's aimed anywhere besides the rear or the vehicle.
Death By Monkeys wrote:
Just Dave wrote:- Scarabs are LETHAL anti-tank now, theres the [Heavy] Destroyers, gauss glancing on a 6, barges, arks, new Heavy Support Str10-hitting flyer, rending wraiths, monolith (which can particle whip whenever), any fancy wargear on the HQ's and presumably other stuff. They should be OK for anti-tank...
With the exception of the Heavy Destroyers and the Monolith Ring Pop, though, all the rest of the weapons you're talking about have a range of 0-24". There's not a whole lot of ranged anti-tank. If you've got to get within 24" to destroy a tank, then you can probably be torrented or charged by whatever it is carrying. I think the scarab swarms are going to be really interesting, but I'm also a bit leery of what I see of the codex's anti-tank capabilities.
Doesn't one of the special characters basically allow the entire game to potentially be played in night fighting though? So... range wouldn't seem to be a problem if that's the case.
So with quantum shielding, would each shooting attack against the vehicle from a squad need to be rolled seperately to see if the one member of the squad (say a psycannons out of a squad of PAGK with psybolt stormbolters) managed to get a glance/pen so the AV of the vehicle would be reduced sufficiently for the rest of the squad to be able to harm the vehicle?
so a squad of 5 purifiers (one psycannons, rest with stormbolter/psybolt ammo) fire at a ghost ark, and the psycannon is the only one who can harm the vehicle. Would only the psycannon be able to fire at the ghost ark that turn or would the rest of the squad be able to do so after the quantum shielding has been removed by the psycannon?
I know this question seems a bit specific but there's no harm in asking.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:I never heard of Land Raiders being immune, however.
The only one, so far as I know of, is the Land Raider Achilles. Not only is it rare, it actually kinda sucks.... so effectively, I think the only model that is immune to melta is the Stormraven. Is that right?
Isn't there an upgrade for Eldar that can make their vehicles immune to melta?
Just Dave wrote:- Scarabs are LETHAL anti-tank now, theres the [Heavy] Destroyers, gauss glancing on a 6, barges, arks, new Heavy Support Str10-hitting flyer, rending wraiths, monolith (which can particle whip whenever), any fancy wargear on the HQ's and presumably other stuff. They should be OK for anti-tank...
With the exception of the Heavy Destroyers and the Monolith Ring Pop, though, all the rest of the weapons you're talking about have a range of 0-24". There's not a whole lot of ranged anti-tank. If you've got to get within 24" to destroy a tank, then you can probably be torrented or charged by whatever it is carrying. I think the scarab swarms are going to be really interesting, but I'm also a bit leery of what I see of the codex's anti-tank capabilities.
Except the 72" Doomsday Ark... And the flyer can move fast enough to dish out a hell of alot of damage. Also there are the cryptek weapons and abilities we dont know rules for yet. Kind of silly to speculate on an unreleased codex. Even sillier to speculate when you dont even seem to have read the unit info yakface shared so far.
Ehsteve wrote:So with quantum shielding, would each shooting attack against the vehicle from a squad need to be rolled seperately to see if the one member of the squad (say a psycannons out of a squad of PAGK with psybolt stormbolters) managed to get a glance/pen so the AV of the vehicle would be reduced sufficiently for the rest of the squad to be able to harm the vehicle?
so a squad of 5 purifiers (one psycannons, rest with stormbolter/psybolt ammo) fire at a ghost ark, and the psycannon is the only one who can harm the vehicle. Would only the psycannon be able to fire at the ghost ark that turn or would the rest of the squad be able to do so after the quantum shielding has been removed by the psycannon?
I know this question seems a bit specific but there's no harm in asking.
All firing has to be declared at the same time and all the results are rolled at the same time. IIRC, the rulebook recommends using different dice to differentiate between weapons, but it's commonly done separately. This is one of those cases where it's important to remember, though. So, no, you couldn't take out the Quantum Shielding with the Psycannons and then hurt it using psybolt stormbolters from the same unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hox wrote:
Death By Monkeys wrote:
Just Dave wrote:- Scarabs are LETHAL anti-tank now, theres the [Heavy] Destroyers, gauss glancing on a 6, barges, arks, new Heavy Support Str10-hitting flyer, rending wraiths, monolith (which can particle whip whenever), any fancy wargear on the HQ's and presumably other stuff. They should be OK for anti-tank...
With the exception of the Heavy Destroyers and the Monolith Ring Pop, though, all the rest of the weapons you're talking about have a range of 0-24". There's not a whole lot of ranged anti-tank. If you've got to get within 24" to destroy a tank, then you can probably be torrented or charged by whatever it is carrying. I think the scarab swarms are going to be really interesting, but I'm also a bit leery of what I see of the codex's anti-tank capabilities.
Except the 72" Doomsday Ark... And the flyer can move fast enough to dish out a hell of alot of damage. Also there are the cryptek weapons and abilities we dont know rules for yet. Kind of silly to speculate on an unreleased codex. Even sillier to speculate when you dont even seem to have read the unit info yakface shared so far.
Sorry, I got the Doomsday Ark weapon mixed up with the Ring Pop.
As for dogging me for not reading the unit info - I've been collating this stuff since BoK started releasing the rumors, so don't be giving me crap about it. Stay classy, San Diego.
Ehsteve wrote:So with quantum shielding, would each shooting attack against the vehicle from a squad need to be rolled seperately to see if the one member of the squad (say a psycannons out of a squad of PAGK with psybolt stormbolters) managed to get a glance/pen so the AV of the vehicle would be reduced sufficiently for the rest of the squad to be able to harm the vehicle?
so a squad of 5 purifiers (one psycannons, rest with stormbolter/psybolt ammo) fire at a ghost ark, and the psycannon is the only one who can harm the vehicle. Would only the psycannon be able to fire at the ghost ark that turn or would the rest of the squad be able to do so after the quantum shielding has been removed by the psycannon?
I know this question seems a bit specific but there's no harm in asking.
All firing has to be declared at the same time and all the results are rolled at the same time. IIRC, the rulebook recommends using different dice to differentiate between weapons, but it's commonly done separately. This is one of those cases where it's important to remember, though. So, no, you couldn't take out the Quantum Shielding with the Psycannons and then hurt it using psybolt stormbolters from the same unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hox wrote:
Death By Monkeys wrote:
Just Dave wrote:- Scarabs are LETHAL anti-tank now, theres the [Heavy] Destroyers, gauss glancing on a 6, barges, arks, new Heavy Support Str10-hitting flyer, rending wraiths, monolith (which can particle whip whenever), any fancy wargear on the HQ's and presumably other stuff. They should be OK for anti-tank...
With the exception of the Heavy Destroyers and the Monolith Ring Pop, though, all the rest of the weapons you're talking about have a range of 0-24". There's not a whole lot of ranged anti-tank. If you've got to get within 24" to destroy a tank, then you can probably be torrented or charged by whatever it is carrying. I think the scarab swarms are going to be really interesting, but I'm also a bit leery of what I see of the codex's anti-tank capabilities.
Except the 72" Doomsday Ark... And the flyer can move fast enough to dish out a hell of alot of damage. Also there are the cryptek weapons and abilities we dont know rules for yet. Kind of silly to speculate on an unreleased codex. Even sillier to speculate when you dont even seem to have read the unit info yakface shared so far.
Sorry, I got the Doomsday Ark weapon mixed up with the Ring Pop.
As for dogging me for not reading the unit info - I've been collating this stuff since BoK started releasing the rumors, so don't be giving me crap about it. Stay classy, San Diego.
Always classy. To be honest the doomsday ark as heavy support, the heavy destroyers as fast attack and possibility that some of the c'tan abilities could be ranged AT in elites make me feel quite safe in terms of ranged AT. That isnt including possible cryptek weapons.
JohnnoM wrote:I'm not a big fan of the new "cover art". Too much red in my opinion.
Plus I was wondering, somewhere in Yak's post it said that Triarch and Lychguard came in the same box, is that true?
Also, do one of the HQ choices make any Elites or Heavy Support or Fast Attack into Troops?
Hox wrote:Always classy. To be honest the doomsday ark as heavy support, the heavy destroyers as fast attack and possibility that some of the c'tan abilities could be ranged AT in elites make me feel quite safe in terms of ranged AT. That isnt including possible cryptek weapons.
Among the C'Tan's abilities is rumored to be one that is Heavy 1 S9 AP2, but again, that one is supposed to be 24". I'm most curious to see what the Cryptek weapons hold. I'm hoping that the "Heat Ray" on the Triarch Stalker won't just be limited to that platform.
JohnnoM wrote:I'm not a big fan of the new "cover art". Too much red in my opinion.
Plus I was wondering, somewhere in Yak's post it said that Triarch and Lychguard came in the same box, is that true?
Also, do one of the HQ choices make any Elites or Heavy Support or Fast Attack into Troops?
anyone got an answer?
Agree on the pic, a weird combination between alot and not alot of detail. Some people think they come together which is a fair assumption but the only place allowing preorders sells them separately (Take that as you will). And I'm pretty sure yakface said there was an uncharacteristic lack of HQs changing up what you can take in this codex so I would assume no unless they are things you can purchase for the overlord.
So with what has happened to the C'tan is the Void Dragon being on Mars still a thing? Mars being this potential crisis zone was always a neat idea, but now that we have the whole shards thing going is it really much of threat?
And for a more practical question: Anyone know the situation with the rods? It would be a shame to have a whole Battleforce worth of rods that don't mix with the new ones. Are the current rods easy to paint over, because I probably want to mimic the new look.
asimo77 wrote:So with what has happened to the C'tan is the Void Dragon being on Mars still a thing? Mars being this potential crisis zone was always a neat idea, but now that we have the whole shards thing going is it really much of threat?
Not important anymore, basically out of the fluff. The Necrons have killed or enslaved the C'tan and won't be resurrecting him. They also won't be making any more moves on the Imperium, for mankind and the greater galaxy the threat of the Necrons is over. They'll be too busy trading knowledge the AdMec to storm Mars.
asimo77 wrote:So with what has happened to the C'tan is the Void Dragon being on Mars still a thing? Mars being this potential crisis zone was always a neat idea, but now that we have the whole shards thing going is it really much of threat?
And for a more practical question: Anyone know the situation with the rods? It would be a shame to have a whole Battleforce worth of rods that don't mix with the new ones. Are the current rods easy to paint over, because I probably want to mimic the new look.
H.B.M.C. wrote:I love the cover art. Not sure where the guy behind the Overlord's torso has vanished to though.
+1 to this. Looks nice and gritty and grimdark as it should be.
And I think the torso is hidden by that pillar of orange light. It is kind of odd looking though...who knew light could be so opaque?
Yet you can see the monolith in the background through the top of the beam. The fact that his arm/leg are gone and the bizarre lack of detail around picture and the weird single tone of the weapon glow make me think that the picture is incomplete although that would make no sense as it was released in a newsletter.
asimo77 wrote:So with what has happened to the C'tan is the Void Dragon being on Mars still a thing? Mars being this potential crisis zone was always a neat idea, but now that we have the whole shards thing going is it really much of threat?
Not important anymore, basically out of the fluff. The Necrons have killed or enslaved the C'tan and won't be resurrecting him. They also won't be making any more moves on the Imperium, for mankind and the greater galaxy the threat of the Necrons is over. They'll be too busy trading knowledge the AdMec to storm Mars.
I wouldn't say it's necessarily out of the fluff. Based on what I'm hearing, it just sounds to me that these powerful entities that we've been seeing on the battlefield as The Deceiver and the Nightbringer and that may be trapped on Mars aren't the C'Tan as we thought that they were, but are just the Shards that we're hearing about now. I mean, it's always been kind of bogus to say that a Necron God would traipse around on a battlefield while Khorne or Tzeentch or Khaine would not. The C'Tan we knew and loved previously were, shall we say, Avatars, like the Eldars'. That's all the shards are - Avatars that only have a portion of the C'Tan's original power. As far as the Dragon being trapped on Mars, maybe it's just one of the more powerful shards that the IoM has managed to keep imprisoned.
I think I preferred the old cover art, the greens were colder, more chilling.
I like how the old flayed ones have been removed from stock. What about 'collectors' models eh? No?
No, you can now only have the new ones. Which NO ONE likes more than the old. Just like the Daemonettes, to save the customers anything troubling like 'choice' they take the older, superior models away. Unless you want Space Marines, loads of them in the 'collectors' section.
Wow- That artwork is sick! It is reminicent of the other cover artworks so who knows? It would make a great cover and completly blows the piss out of the old one and most of the depictions of the necrons.
I like the way they have make them seem more Epic. I.e like a Space Empire/ Kingdom very grand and ambitious in wanting to take on the Imperium and achieve other goals. This is much better than the old lore for them basically being Destroy, Destroy, Destroy...
You have done very well Mr Kroothawk and cheers for all the updates as a Necron player I am vey much looking forward to all this. Most of all the rulebook I think.
If I was a chief MOD I would bestow on you the Rank of.... CHAMPION!!!
asimo77 wrote:So with what has happened to the C'tan is the Void Dragon being on Mars still a thing? Mars being this potential crisis zone was always a neat idea, but now that we have the whole shards thing going is it really much of threat?
Not important anymore, basically out of the fluff. The Necrons have killed or enslaved the C'tan and won't be resurrecting him. They also won't be making any more moves on the Imperium, for mankind and the greater galaxy the threat of the Necrons is over. They'll be too busy trading knowledge the AdMec to storm Mars.
I wouldn't say it's necessarily out of the fluff. Based on what I'm hearing, it just sounds to me that these powerful entities that we've been seeing on the battlefield as The Deceiver and the Nightbringer and that may be trapped on Mars aren't the C'Tan as we thought that they were, but are just the Shards that we're hearing about now. I mean, it's always been kind of bogus to say that a Necron God would traipse around on a battlefield while Khorne or Tzeentch or Khaine would not. The C'Tan we knew and loved previously were, shall we say, Avatars, like the Eldars'. That's all the shards are - Avatars that only have a portion of the C'Tan's original power. As far as the Dragon being trapped on Mars, maybe it's just one of the more powerful shards that the IoM has managed to keep imprisoned.
+1
It legitifies bringing them on the battlefield
it also explains how the hell a young emporer could be lie O HAI IM BEATING YOU UP NOW!
Im kinda hoping the rods replacing the green ones were just put there to take the place of the old ones until they could get them produced. far hope, but still a hope
JohnnoM wrote:I'm not a big fan of the new "cover art". Too much red in my opinion.
Plus I was wondering, somewhere in Yak's post it said that Triarch and Lychguard came in the same box, is that true?
Also, do one of the HQ choices make any Elites or Heavy Support or Fast Attack into Troops?
anyone got an answer?
As far as I can remember one of yak face's posts said he hasn't read anything about F.O.C swaps for any models. So nothing has come out so far.
and yes preatorians/lychs are supposed to be in the same box.
Still no response to my question from a couple/few pages ago: Do resurrection protocols restore multi-wound models at full strength, partial strength, or just a single wound remaining?
tetrisphreak wrote:Still no response to my question from a couple/few pages ago: Do resurrection protocols restore multi-wound models at full strength, partial strength, or just a single wound remaining?
Phylactery was the only thing that did that in the old codex. and i haven't read anything alluding to multi wound restore,so just phylactery. if it is still there
tetrisphreak wrote:Still no response to my question from a couple/few pages ago: Do resurrection protocols restore multi-wound models at full strength, partial strength, or just a single wound remaining?
Phylactery was the only thing that did that in the old codex. and i haven't read anything alluding to multi wound restore,so just phylactery. if it is still there
I read somewhere... not sure if it was here or W.S. or H.O. or somewhere else but I believe that multi wound models only have their last wound restored.
Can someone confirm?
tetrisphreak wrote:Still no response to my question from a couple/few pages ago: Do resurrection protocols restore multi-wound models at full strength, partial strength, or just a single wound remaining?
Phylactery was the only thing that did that in the old codex. and i haven't read anything alluding to multi wound restore,so just phylactery. if it is still there
I read somewhere... not sure if it was here or W.S. or H.O. or somewhere else but I believe that multi wound models only have their last wound restored.
Can someone confirm?
Ressurrection Protocols returns the model to play with a single wound unless they have a Phylactery in which case they come back (the first time they get back up) with D3 wounds.
And yes, for the most part (not the C'Tan, for example) every non-vehicle unit has Ressurection Protocols, so Scarabs can come back as well now.
That's what it sounds like. I'd hope it had a point drop if it only works the first time they stand and since that isn't guaranteed for a multi wound model it could easily get pricey for a piece of wargear that may do nothing all game.
Wraiths are pretty darn close to being the same price and still have a 3+ invulnerable save (phase shifter) as well as a 3+ armor save.
They move as Jump Infantry but ignore difficult terrain (so do not have to take difficult or dangerous tests).
Their Attacks are rending and they have a few options (each model can take one): Particle Caster (pistol), Whip Coil (lash whip) or Exile Beamer (a 12" Heavy Weapon that causes a raondom model in the target unit to be removed from the table if it fails a Strength test).
I have a hard time seeing how an Exile Beamer could be useful since it is a heavy weapon (especially since its the most expensive upgrade of the bunch) and most models you'd realy want to remove instantly (like big ICs, Monstrous Creatures) tend to have a high Strength value anyway.
i was wondering if anyone covered it but does the whole quantum sheilding and living metal... does that have any effects on lance weapons? does it work like black templars blessed hull?
yakface wrote:
Wraiths are pretty darn close to being the same price and still have a 3+ invulnerable save (phase shifter) as well as a 3+ armor save.
They move as Jump Infantry but ignore difficult terrain (so do not have to take difficult or dangerous tests).
Their Attacks are rending and they have a few options (each model can take one): Particle Caster (pistol), Whip Coil (lash whip) or Exile Beamer (a 12" Heavy Weapon that causes a raondom model in the target unit to be removed from the table if it fails a Strength test).
I have a hard time seeing how an Exile Beamer could be useful since it is a heavy weapon (especially since its the most expensive upgrade of the bunch) and most models you'd realy want to remove instantly (like big ICs, Monstrous Creatures) tend to have a high Strength value anyway.
Hopefully they're relentless? And hopefully the exile beamer still causes a wound if it doesn't exile? *Wish*
Could be murder to IG Commanders and the like mind. Or to Sergeants/Justicars and the other unit leads if the wound inflicted is chosen by the shooter.
marmaduke wrote:i was wondering if anyone covered it but does the whole quantum sheilding and living metal... does that have any effects on lance weapons? does it work like black templars blessed hull?
DJ3 wrote:Confused about Resurrection Protocols now--haven't the rumors so far suggested it works more like FNP, and is essentially just a save after your save?
Wording like "comes back into play" makes it sound more like old WBB, where the models stay down temporarily and then can get back up at a later time.
I know the summary on the first page is LONG, but all this info is there.
Ressurection Protocols happens at the end of each phase. But again, please read the whole first post summary before asking questions!
DJ3 wrote:Confused about Resurrection Protocols now--haven't the rumors so far suggested it works more like FNP, and is essentially just a save after your save?
Wording like "comes back into play" makes it sound more like old WBB, where the models stay down temporarily and then can get back up at a later time.
From Yakface's original post in May:
Yakface wrote:
3) We'll be Back is no longer called that and it is NOT Feel No Pain. Basically it is a 5+ bonus save similar to Feel No Pain, but doesn't get cancelled out by double strength, AP1/2, etc. In addition, this save is made at the END of the phase after morale tests are taken. If the unit is wiped out or is falling back at the end of the phase, then the save cannot be used. So as an opponent, if you manage to wipe the unit out or make them fall back, then you prevent any Necrons from getting back up...unless the unit has something called the 'ever-living' rule, in which case it gets to attempt this save even if the unit is wiped out.
Yakface,
You've mentions some specifics about the IC point cost, but can you give us a range? Are they in the 200 point area, or is there a wider range than that?
You also mentioned that the Lords in the Royal Court are in the 50pt area... any word on the base cryptek cost?
To be fair, I did search the original post, because I knew the explanation was in there somewhere--but with none of the words "resurrection," "reanimation," or "protocols" used in that paragraph it's a bit hard to find.
So Yakface can you shed some light on the new walker that was supposed to be a 'Necromancer' giant robot but is in fact a IG style sentinel that looks a bit like a Scorpion with a driver (that's ancient Necron high tech for you), and doesn't get a model in the first wave if ever? So it's not a monstrous creature and is in fact a vehicle (walker) with AV11 and quantum shielding? So it's a Furioso Dreadnought with a two shot multi-melta but the first (saved with obscure or not) glance it takes gets reduced to AV11 permanently? It moves 6" per turn and that's it? Seriously? That has to be the most underwhelming and We do not use that word as a pejorative here at Dakka - MT11 concept ever.
Don't even get me started on the open topped skimmers that aren't fast vehicles. Being a skimmer that isn't fast is basically on most tabletops simply a disadvantage especially as Necrons aren't an assault army. Open topped and underwhelming weaponry are just nails in the coffin.
What are we missing? These walkers cost 50 points each and these Ghost Barges 30 points a pop? Oh wait! You're not supposed to play Necrons as a mech army and that's why we're releasing six new vehicle kits that all suck so much that they get laughed off competitive tables!
So in case I was being unclear, the Necron rumours seem to indicate the new Necrons aren't any better than the old Necrons. Atleast the old ones could hide behind a wall of Monoliths. Now the 20 meltas people are packing will just burn right through all that garbage.
These are probably old questions, but does anyone know if the codex is hard cover or not? Also noticed greed rods are gone, wondering how or with what they will be replaced in older molds such as warriors.
Therion wrote:So Yakface can you shed some light on the new walker that was supposed to be a 'Necromancer' giant robot but is in fact a IG style sentinel that looks a bit like a Scorpion with a driver (that's ancient Necron high tech for you), and doesn't get a model in the first wave if ever? So it's not a monstrous creature and is in fact a vehicle (walker) with AV11 and quantum shielding? So it's a Furioso Dreadnought with a two shot multi-melta but the first (saved with obscure or not) glance it takes gets reduced to AV11 permanently? It moves 6" per turn and that's it? Seriously? That has to be the most underwhelming and Do not quote unnaceptable words please concept ever.
Don't even get me started on the open topped skimmers that aren't fast vehicles. Being a skimmer that isn't fast is basically on most tabletops simply a disadvantage especially as Necrons aren't an assault army. Open topped and underwhelming weaponry are just nails in the coffin.
What are we missing? These walkers cost 50 points each and these Ghost Barges 30 points a pop? Oh wait! You're not supposed to play Necrons as a mech army and that's why we're releasing six new vehicle kits that all suck so much that they get laughed off competitive tables!
So in case I was being unclear, the Necron rumours seem to indicate the new Necrons aren't any better than the old Necrons. Atleast the old ones could hide behind a wall of Monoliths. Now the 20 meltas people are packing will just burn right through all that garbage.
Yeah damn those meltas! What ever will a 72" Str 9 AP1 Large blast do against them! If your upset that you're going to have to think about strategy now maybe this isnt the game for you. People dont even know the statlines on everything yet are so willing to complain. There are several weapons and abilities that either hit every guy in a unit or all the identical ones. Wonder how those could help against 20 meltas. Now that all of the regular units cant be instakilled and lose their WBB rule, points costs are dropped and we are getting some good CC that moves really quick and has invulnerable saves at hopefully a decent cost, I dont think we need to hide behind monoliths anymore.
When it comes to Necron AT, the thing you have to remember is that you're still dealing with an army where most units (those with Gauss weapons) have the ability to inflict glancing hits on vehicles and now you have Scarabs (and a few other models) with Entropic Stirke which allows you to reduce the armor of enemy vehicles, so I do think those two things potentially change how much AT firepower a Necron army has to have compared to traditional armies.
There are no units walking around with a bunch of AT firepower in them like you see in some other codexes (such as Long Fangs), but again, I don't think you're quite as reliant on these types of units because you have a few different avenues to get the same job done.
• The Stormlord has that Lightning that occurs when Night Fighting is going on, which hits vehicles on a D6 roll of '6' with D6 S8 hits that go against the side armor of vehicles that are hit.
• Most models with a Warscythe are striking at S7 in combat with them (which can certainly punch most vehicles). And when on a Command barge ICs can make 3 attacks on an enemy vehicle's back armor they pass over with their movement.
• Lychguard with Dispersion Shields could theoretically bounce back AT fire off their shields onto enemy vehicles within 6" (but there's no reliability there).
• The Triach Stalker of course has a 24" 2 shot S8 Melta weapon.
• C'Tan shards can take a 24" S9 shooting attack if they want. And of course the C'Tan & Tomb Spyders are both Monstrous Creatures (S7 & S6 respectively) which means they can still tear vehicles apart in CC.
• Heavy Destroyers are still 36" S9 shots.
• Wraiths are S6 rending 3 Attacks in CC.
• Scarabs of course (and some other models with special close combat weapons such as the Void Blade) have Entropic attacks.
• The Monolith still has its 24" S8 Particle Whip Large Blast.
• Doomsday Ark has the 72" S9 AP1 (large blast) shot if it doesn't move.
* Annihilation Barges & Night Scythes both have the twin-linked Tesla Destructor, which despite being AP-, should still do a decent job on low armor vehicles (with a S7 and 4 shots and the potential for more hits if you roll '6's to hit).
• The Doom Scythe of course has the Death Ray. I actually read its rules wrong before...its not quite as good as what I wrote before. It does a number of hits on a unit equal to the number of models in the unit that are under the line. So if a unit has 5 models under the line it takes 5 hits, but if a unit is only made up of a single model, then it is only taking 1 hit. Of course the hits are S10 AP1, so its still pretty nasty.
• Generic Overlords & Destroyer Lords can take a Tachyon Arrow, which is like a super version of the Hunter-Killer missile. It is one-use, but is S10 AP1 with unlimited range.
* One flavor of Cryptek has a 36" S8 attack, another has a 12" Assault 4 attack that hits like Haywire Grenades on vehicles (2-5 = glancing hit, 6 = penetrating hit), while another has a S6 single shot with unlimited range that is an Entropic attack (so will reduce enemy vehicle armor by 1 if it hits).
So all said, it looks like there should be plenty of AT options available.
Okay - Thanks for the confirmation on Resurrection Protocols - My query was in reference to scarab swarms, in particular. This means they won't be as broken as I felt they would be, and through attrition can be brought down (barring incredible luck with 5+ saving throws). Can all units that have Resurrection Protocols also benefit from a Rez Orb being nearby, or must the unit have an orb on a model in it to benefit?
Thanks again, all this information is overwhelmingly awesome, and whetting my appetite even more for this new release. To those who say that the new necrons will be as pitiful at tournaments as the old, I say any new book's weaknesses can be pointed out in a vacuum. In a tournament, you're facing a mix of TAC lists, not tailored to one opponent usually, and I think the new necrons can expect to place higher overall in the months to come.
Give me 3 months with the codex and I may eat my words -- It happened with my Tyranids so i'm not ruling it out as a possibility.
I agree with Therion. It is about Game Mechanics and what I have seen so far is distressing.
Pretty Models is what makes a quick sell. Good Game Mechanics makes long term sells. I'm not telling anyone not to buy the codex, I'm saying not to get your hopes too high.
For the lightning strikes, is it roll a D6 and if you roll a 6 all the enemy units are hit or is a D6 rolled for each individual enemy unit to see if they are hit.
• The Stormlord has that Lightning that occurs when Night Fighting is going on, which hits vehicles on a D6 roll of '6' with D6 S8 hits that go against the side armor of vehicles that are hit.
This guy seems useful and depending on the other abilities might become the Mephiston of this book. Too bad that many major tournaments still disallow named characters from being used.
• Most models with a Warscythe are striking at S7 in combat with them (which can certainly punch most vehicles). And when on a Command barge ICs can make 3 attacks on an enemy vehicle's back armor they pass over with their movement.
• Lychguard with Dispersion Shields could theoretically bounce back AT fire off their shields onto enemy vehicles within 6" (but there's no reliability there).
None of this is realistic.
• The Triach Stalker of course has a 24" 2 shot S8 Melta weapon.
Can it deep strike? Does it have some invulnerable saves we don't know of? Does it infiltrate? Does it scout? You're not seriously telling us that an AV11 regular walker with a multi-melta is good AT, are you?
• C'Tan shards can take a 24" S9 shooting attack if they want. And of course the C'Tan & Tomb Spyders are both Monstrous Creatures (S7 & S6 respectively) which means they can still tear vehicles apart in CC.
Can the C'tan deep strike? Can they infiltrate? Are they beasts? Are they jump infantry? Do they have some ridiculous invulnerable saves? You're not telling us that you we should use a 300 point Carnifex with Scything Talons as an anti-tank option?
• Heavy Destroyers are still 36" S9 shots.
Allright that's cool, and they come in units of 3 and when they're all shot down they don't get resurrection protocols of any sort. So how much does a unit like this cost? Over 120 points and it's bad.
• Wraiths are S6 rending 3 Attacks in CC.
That's cool. Maybe someone will try to make a pure assault army from the Necrons then. Of course it won't be nearly as good as TWC spam or oldschool Nob Bikers and whatnot but hey who cares right?
• Scarabs of course (and some other models with special close combat weapons such as the Void Blade) have Entropic attacks.
They seem to be pretty nice despite the fact that the game is filled with weapons that cause instant death in them by the dozen. All depends on their points cost of course. The only promising unit in the rumours so far.
• The Monolith still has its 24" S8 Particle Whip Large Blast.
The Monolith is bad now. Stormraven bad, and that's really really bad. It's too big, functions only as the world's slowest battle cannon and tries to survive in a game stacked with darklight and melta.
• Doomsday Ark has the 72" S9 AP1 (large blast) shot if it doesn't move.
That's great, so how much does it cost considering we're talking about a Ravager here with a blast weapon. More than 120 points fully upgraded with the quantum shields and whatnot and it's terrible, considering the movement restrictions and other weaknesses.
* Annihilation Barges & Night Scythes both have the twin-linked Tesla Destructor, which despite being AP-, should still do a decent job on low armor vehicles (with a S7 and 4 shots and the potential for more hits if you roll '6's to hit).
Tesla Destructor seems to be the only good new ranged weapon. It depends on how that rule gets interpreted of course (2 extra hits or just one extra hit per 6). Of course this depends on points costs too, but if the Annihilation Barges and Night Scythes are cheap enough there might be sense in maximising the Tesla Destructors.
• The Doom Scythe of course has the Death Ray. I actually read its rules wrong before...its not quite as good as what I wrote before. It does a number of hits on a unit equal to the number of models in the unit that are under the line. So if a unit has 5 models under the line it takes 5 hits, but if a unit is only made up of a single model, then it is only taking 1 hit. Of course the hits are S10 AP1, so its still pretty nasty.
I remember you mentioned this piece of garbage costs 200 points so it's far from nasty. It's an overpriced Ravager with a 12" range weapon that is very situational.
• Generic Overlords & Destroyer Lords can take a Tachyon Arrow, which is like a super version of the Hunter-Killer missile. It is one-use, but is S10 AP1 with unlimited range.
I doubt anyone will use any other HQ choices except the Stormlord if the rumours are accurate.
Death Ray - 12" Move, 12" start of the line, potential 18" line (average 11.5") - That's 36" Range, that will hit an entire parking lot if lined up correctly.
Have you read the codex? You just discounted everything yakface said without even knowing anything about half of them. You say that the stormlord is bad because you cant use him in tourneys and then the overlord is bad because you are going to use the stormlord yet you had just said you cant use the stormlord in tourney lists. Why dont you wait a couple weeks before you make all these assumptions.
Hox wrote:Have you read the codex? You just discounted everything yakface said without even knowing anything about half of them. You say that the stormlord is bad because you cant use him in tourneys and then the overlord is bad because you are going to use the stormlord yet you had just said you cant use the stormlord in tourney lists. Why dont you wait a couple weeks before you make all these assumptions.
Yakface could tell us everything he knows (he clearly has the codex or a PDF of it) yet he decides to give microscopic bits of information about every unit. I'm not sure why this is since there are no legal restrictions on him. Generally everyone in the GW hobby are paranoid about revealing information about products released in the immediate future. Perhaps he wants to keep a regular stream of traffic at the site ("check back for more information in a few hours"). That's none of my concern.
I'm firstly basing my assumptions about the units on what he tells us but in the cases of the unit just sounding ridiculously underwhelming asking him for extra information. I could've been more clear about the Stormlord, but to explain; it seems to be the best HQ unit in the codex by far but won't always be allowed. It means that it can't always be relied on unfortunately. For a regular tournament player, having a normal Overlord that could purchase the Stormlord's special abilities from a wargear list would've been more helpful.
I have never been to (or read about) a tournament that specifically disallowed named characters from a Warhammer 40,000 Codex. Is that really as common as Therion states?
There is waaaay to much whining about how Crons are underpowered when only 1 person here has seen the codex. To all of those discounting Necron vehicles, you do realize that the whole army will be dropping down at AV 13, right?
At 2k 10+ AV 13 vehicles will be a tough nut to crack, even for Psyfleman and Long Fangs. 3 Psyfleman will hit with roughly 10 shots and do on average about 1 glance, 1 pen and 1 glance/pen. Factor in cover saves and that's not a whole lot. Long Fangs average about the same. What seems to be the problem there?
Hox wrote:Have you read the codex? You just discounted everything yakface said without even knowing anything about half of them. You say that the stormlord is bad because you cant use him in tourneys and then the overlord is bad because you are going to use the stormlord yet you had just said you cant use the stormlord in tourney lists. Why dont you wait a couple weeks before you make all these assumptions.
Yakface could tell us everything he knows (he clearly has the codex or a PDF of it) yet he decides to give microscopic bits of information about every unit. I'm not sure why this is since there are no legal restrictions on him. Generally everyone in the GW hobby are paranoid about revealing information about products released in the immediate future. Perhaps he wants to keep a regular stream of traffic at the site ("check back for more information in a few hours"). That's none of my concern.
I'm firstly basing my assumptions about the units on what he tells us but in the cases of the unit just sounding ridiculously underwhelming asking him for extra information. I could've been more clear about the Stormlord, but to explain; it seems to be the best HQ unit in the codex by far but won't always be allowed. It means that it can't always be relied on unfortunately. For a regular tournament player, having a normal Overlord that could purchase the Stormlord's special abilities from a wargear list would've been more helpful.
Im pretty sure it is in fact illegal to post both points cost and the stat lines. Otherwise GW would never sell another codex again. That is why he is ambiguous about costs and is comparative as opposed to using exact numbers. Obviously you can assume that GW does not allow the unit info (the reason for which they sell the codex) to be copied. Look on any wargaming site (other than GW) and unit stats never appear. Whether its legal or not its respecting the company that provides this hobby to us. Clearly I want to see everything just as bad as you. I want to see the costs and options and artwork but I'd rather wait to buy the codex so I can go through it myself. The info yakface is providing is probably the best on the net and no other forum I have seen has anything but copies of his posts.
My first thought was "Nice, blatantly related to Tomb Kings now." Followed quickly by "uh-oh, I did not like as much of that as I had hoped."
Then I read the bit about the monolith portal and laughed thinking about a Mawlock trying to eat a Monolith, missing and being eaten by the Monolith.
I think it is a neat change, it at least makes them more fun to talk about.
Unfortunately it is change that costs me two opponents who do not agree with the changes. So it is something of a wash for me. Moot, you might say.
And no, I do not think I have even heard of a 40k tourney that so much as discouraged characters in the US. They probably happen, but not all that commonly.
Therion, I think you're overreacting and being unrealisti:
I've never been to a major tourney that disallows named characters, must be a Euro thing.
Warscythes, etc. are entirely realistic. I've lost more vehicles to power klaws and fists than I have to ranged firepower.
Like all Necron lists since the dawn of time, you have to support your units. Take the stormlord and keep nightfight going and your AV11 walker is still AV11, but your opponent won't be able to hit the damn thing til its up close. Besides that, there are plenty of effective AT vehicles w/ low AV: Pirahnas w/ fusion blaster, devildogs (or was it bane wolves?), Dreadnoughts, etc.
I do use a 250 point carnifex w/ scytals as antitank, don't knock it. Besides, do you even know what the abilities it can take can do?
If Heavy Destroyers come in units of three and you're worried about losing res protocols, then heres a crazy idea: KEEP THEM IN COVER/LIMIT LOS! What a concept, keeping a unit with enough range to cover 1/2 of a standard table at a time, not to mention an extremely mobile unit at that, in the backfield so you can hit what you want to hit and your opponent hast to work to get at them.
Would you like some whine with your cheese? Or perhaps some cheese with your whine? Wraiths are not Nob Bikers or TWC, this is true, but that doesn't mean they are an ineffective unit.
Once again I direct you to the concept of a cover save and limitng enemy line of sight so that your scarabs don't get totally wrecked.
How is a Monolith at all different from a Land Raider? Rumor has it its even cheaper than a Land Raider now, and it has a way better weapon. Besides that, I direct you again to the Stormlords Night Fight ability, if you're really that concerned about an AV14 vehicle getting taken out.
Again, I direct you to like EVERYTHING you can do to mitigate the weaknesses of the Doomsday Ark, just based off fo what we have been told thus far.
The only good weapon in your opinion is a 4 shot S7 AP- gun with exploding 6's? Riiiigggghhhttt....
The Death Ray is the only thing I agree with you about.
And finally, you do know you have 2 HQ slots, right? You CAN take the Stormlord and something other than a Stormlord in the same list...
I really think one to two solar pulses are going to be nasty especially in spearhead. You can give nightfight to your opponent while you pound them with your long range AT or swing around with scarabs.
If I recall correctly, I believe the Monolith is categorized as a 'Heavy Skimmer', meaning it only moves Combat Speed but counts as being Stationary. So I would think it could, but I may be wrong. Someone correct me if that is the case.
There are really a lot of questions being asked here, that have been answered on the front page.
I wonder though, Do Wraiths have Fleet? That'd make a pretty big difference in Charge range.
And Therion, you should read the Codex, before you go acting like you've been hit by the Doomsday Ark. Things on paper preform better, or worse than they appear all the time on the tabletop. Let's get the points cost of things before we go completely insane.
Thanks again Yak for the Continued influx of Information. I know I"m foaming at my mouth until I can get my hands on the Codex!
So, unless deep-striking prevents the monolith from benefiting from the 'heavy skimmer' rule, you can hypothetically deep strike in roughly 12-18" away from your intended target(s) (to best avoid mishap where possible) then fire off a s8 ap3 large blast, 12 s5 ap4 gauss shots (all at presumably separate targets or combining a couple here and a couple there), after having teleported a unit of immortals or warriors to rapid fire yet another target (or if you scooted a touch too close to a unit, suck 'em through the door instead. laughter ensues.)
that's quite a punch at 200 points. plus it's AV14. Sure melta/lance will take it down, but you've alpha struck with it and potentially killed said melta/lance threat(s) nearest your ziggurat of doom.
I think monoliths while different, aren't nerfed at all. We will see if i still feel that way after reading the codex and fielding them. I only have 2, my third heavy will most likely be a doomsday cannon at first, then i'll try out a doom scythe when (if?) the model gets released.
Then wait till 6th when flyers get universal special rules that make them harder to shoot/assault like in apoc. Then vendettas will be impossible to deal with...
I just want to say thanks to Yak for giving us all this info even when some people seem ungrateful, it truly makes my day every time I see any new little but of info you drop on us.
As for Necrons competitive level I guarantee we wont even know how good they are on November 5th, I have a feeling its going to be like Dark Eldar where everyone places them middle tier and then all of a sudden they just start winning tourneys.
My own personal speculation, people are seriously underestimating being able to force night fighting on your opponent and then being able to shoot as normal in your turn. Also AV10 spam works, AV11 spam works, and AV 12 spam works, yet AV13 spam that can drop to 11 is garbage?
Zachilles wrote:I just want to say thanks to Yak for giving us all this info even when some people seem ungrateful, it truly makes my day every time I see any new little but of info you drop on us.
As for Necrons competitive level I guarantee we wont even know how good they are on November 5th, I have a feeling its going to be like Dark Eldar where everyone places them middle tier and then all of a sudden they just start winning tourneys.
My own personal speculation, people are seriously underestimating being able to force night fighting on your opponent and then being able to shoot as normal in your turn. Also AV10 spam works, AV11 spam works, and AV 12 spam works, yet AV13 spam that can drop to 11 is garbage?
To put some salt on the spam quote - AV 11/12/10 spam all carry some sort of long-ranged AT weapon, so games with those become dances of death, cat-and-mouse, etc (venoms being an exception, they are an amazing anti-infantry boat but the guys inside usually have s8 ap2 weaponry). The points costs are all 70-75 points for transports or less. Ghost arks are rumored to be 120+ points, and while their rumored rules fit the theme of the army (resiliency and resurrection of troops) the anti-tank and long-range aspects of the guns are lacking (although Gauss can glance any vehicle on 6s). We will see if spamming these expensive (comparatively) skimmer tanks is a viable tactic, though I imagine the crypteks that can lead 9-man squads of warriors will be the key to having a strong shooting component in the vehicles themselves. I wonder if any cryptek wargear confers a coversave to the unit it is with?
If these squad leaders/crypteks are as useful and utilitarian as everyone says, I hope they get 5-man multi-part kits akin to space wolf troop boxes, or grey knight boxes. I also hope they're easily magnetiseable.
It is good to be a necron player. I am counting the days to November 5th.
If the points costs we've been seeing for Necron transports is roughly correct, then we'll see Necron vehicle spam like we do Eldar vehicle spam - 6-9 vehicles rather than 8-12+ as you do with SM/SW/BA/DE/GK/OMG/ROFLCOPTER/BBQ...
Ascalam wrote:3 scarabs to a base. 30 bases. i see no issue here.
He said a 90 scarab swarm, not 90 scarab swarms..
Thank you Ascalam. For those who don't get it - 3 scarabs per swarm base, up to 10 per swarm, that's 30 "scarabs" per swarm, times 3 swarms... = 90, amiright?
tetrisphreak wrote:So, unless deep-striking prevents the monolith from benefiting from the 'heavy skimmer' rule, you can hypothetically deep strike in roughly 12-18" away from your intended target(s) (to best avoid mishap where possible) then fire off a s8 ap3 large blast, 12 s5 ap4 gauss shots (all at presumably separate targets or combining a couple here and a couple there), after having teleported a unit of immortals or warriors to rapid fire yet another target (or if you scooted a touch too close to a unit, suck 'em through the door instead. laughter ensues.)
that's quite a punch at 200 points. plus it's AV14. Sure melta/lance will take it down, but you've alpha struck with it and potentially killed said melta/lance threat(s) nearest your ziggurat of doom.
.
My thoughts exactly, it might retain the power matrix rule where if it fired the patricle whip it can not use the teleporter
Zachilles wrote:I just want to say thanks to Yak for giving us all this info even when some people seem ungrateful, it truly makes my day every time I see any new little but of info you drop on us.
As for Necrons competitive level I guarantee we wont even know how good they are on November 5th, I have a feeling its going to be like Dark Eldar where everyone places them middle tier and then all of a sudden they just start winning tourneys.
My own personal speculation, people are seriously underestimating being able to force night fighting on your opponent and then being able to shoot as normal in your turn. Also AV10 spam works, AV11 spam works, and AV 12 spam works, yet AV13 spam that can drop to 11 is garbage?
To put some salt on the spam quote - AV 11/12/10 spam all carry some sort of long-ranged AT weapon, so games with those become dances of death, cat-and-mouse, etc (venoms being an exception, they are an amazing anti-infantry boat but the guys inside usually have s8 ap2 weaponry). The points costs are all 70-75 points for transports or less. Ghost arks are rumored to be 120+ points, and while their rumored rules fit the theme of the army (resiliency and resurrection of troops) the anti-tank and long-range aspects of the guns are lacking (although Gauss can glance any vehicle on 6s). We will see if spamming these expensive (comparatively) skimmer tanks is a viable tactic, though I imagine the crypteks that can lead 9-man squads of warriors will be the key to having a strong shooting component in the vehicles themselves. I wonder if any cryptek wargear confers a coversave to the unit it is with?
If these squad leaders/crypteks are as useful and utilitarian as everyone says, I hope they get 5-man multi-part kits akin to space wolf troop boxes, or grey knight boxes. I also hope they're easily magnetiseable.
It is good to be a necron player. I am counting the days to November 5th.
Thank you for such a well thought out reply. My initial thought for ghost barges is a min squad with a cryptek with either the 36" S8 gun or the unlimited range S6 gun that reduces armor on hits that Yak spoke about, if the whole squad including the barge comes in around 200 I think you might see a lot of squads like that popping up
First off Yakface, just wanna say thanks. Your rumours have kept my interest in the game alive even though I don't spend nearly as much time playing the game as I'd like to.
Now, I have a more general question for you: having (presumably) seen the codex in its entirety, does the army 'feel' good? Is it overpowered? Broken? Balanced?
I know most people are going to want to know "Can Necrons kill X now?" or "Do Necrons still suck at Y?", but my question is "do you think the Necrons as a whole will be able to play in a fun and balanced manner?".
Ascalam wrote:3 scarabs to a base. 30 bases. i see no issue here.
He said a 90 scarab swarm, not 90 scarab swarms..
Thank you Ascalam. For those who don't get it - 3 scarabs per swarm base, up to 10 per swarm, that's 30 "scarabs" per swarm, times 3 swarms... = 90, amiright?
Ascalam wrote:3 scarabs to a base. 30 bases. i see no issue here.
He said a 90 scarab swarm, not 90 scarab swarms..
Thank you Ascalam. For those who don't get it - 3 scarabs per swarm base, up to 10 per swarm, that's 30 "scarabs" per swarm, times 3 swarms... = 90, amiright?
So forgive me if this info exists elsewhere in the thread, but I was reading through the OP, and Living Metal is said to have a chance to ignore crew shaken/stunned effects. Do you feel like you can go into any more detail with this, Yak?
GiantSlingshot wrote:So forgive me if this info exists elsewhere in the thread, but I was reading through the OP, and Living Metal is said to have a chance to ignore crew shaken/stunned effects. Do you feel like you can go into any more detail with this, Yak?
Hmm. I read this somewhere, but I could be mistaken. I think it was Shaken on a 2+, and Stunned on a 4+
For those who are cheap, on a budget, or not painters/molders I have seen 3 and even 1 scarab to a base. But they really look swarmy with 5 per base. Some of mine have 4 because I used scenic bases and ran out of room.
GiantSlingshot wrote:So forgive me if this info exists elsewhere in the thread, but I was reading through the OP, and Living Metal is said to have a chance to ignore crew shaken/stunned effects. Do you feel like you can go into any more detail with this, Yak?
Hmm. I read this somewhere, but I could be mistaken. I think it was Shaken on a 2+, and Stunned on a 4+
Wow, so, pretty good chance then. Pretty much, glances on any of the necron vehicles are lack-luster, other than popping the Quantum Shielding. So, pretty resilient against any weapon with less than 6 str. Good to keep in mind.
Yak, a question. It has been said before that the Necrons have techy powers in lieu of psychic powers however, it seems like most of these powers you have described so far are all just random die rolls successful on a fixed number. My concern is that this seems rather under powered versus psychic abilities that are cast off of high leadership values with few things in the game that counter those abilities. So, do Necrons have any options that increase their abilities to (for lack of a better term)'cast' their tech powers and/or do they have access to equipment that can reasonably counter psychic abilities. Mainly looking for abilities that will help to counter Mephiston and duel lash Chaos armies.
tetrisphreak wrote:So, unless deep-striking prevents the monolith from benefiting from the 'heavy skimmer' rule, you can hypothetically deep strike in roughly 12-18" away from your intended target(s) (to best avoid mishap where possible) then fire off a s8 ap3 large blast, 12 s5 ap4 gauss shots (all at presumably separate targets or combining a couple here and a couple there), after having teleported a unit of immortals or warriors to rapid fire yet another target (or if you scooted a touch too close to a unit, suck 'em through the door instead. laughter ensues.)
that's quite a punch at 200 points. plus it's AV14. Sure melta/lance will take it down, but you've alpha struck with it and potentially killed said melta/lance threat(s) nearest your ziggurat of doom.
.
My thoughts exactly, it might retain the power matrix rule where if it fired the patricle whip it can not use the teleporter
Purely speculation, but I would think it would make a lot more sense if the Particle Whip wouldn't be involved with teleportation any longer, and instead the new "suck people into the portal" ability would be the thing that conflicts with using the teleporter.
So you'd get the Particle Whip and the Flux Arcs, plus either the teleport or the S test ability. Which would be pretty great, since the Particle Whip needs to be used a lot and the S test is situational at best.
I must admit, I'm somewhat concerned that (what I consider to be) the Necron's biggest weakness is still present, and has not actually been addressed at all. Close combat. I'm well aware that there are many shiny new CC-designated units in the new codex, but all the Troops choices seem like they will still be less than worthless in CC. Three different types of Flayed-Ones-on-steroids will in no way prevent either of the two Troops choices from getting swept time and again. Necron Warriors only ever needed some CC wargear options, maybe a power weapon or a two-hands option, like a pistol + CC weapon combo. Instead, we seem to have been given only CC specialty units, which do nothing for the original problem.
Now let's examine the Ghost Ark. I'm operating on the rumours of about 120 points, the ability to resurrect troops, and the teaser shielding. On the table, if any opponent (read: everyone) knows that it can resurrect warriors, then it becomes a target. Which means it lives for about two turns. One turn to wipe out the shield, and one turn to destroy the vehicle. But, it's a transport, so two turns is all it needs to deliver it's warrior payload, then mission accomplished, right? Well, when your 50-point Rhino explodes after delivering its Marines, you don't care. It's only 50 points, and got its job done. But when your 120-point model explodes after delivering its Warriors, you get a little upset, because you paid a very high price for its resurrection ability, which carries within its price the expectation that the vehicle survives more than two turns.
By the way, if I never said it before, I am grateful to Yakface for the info. I don't like much of what I'm hearing, but I'm still glad that I'm hearing it. Please do not ever forget that.
As to anyone who is working within the paradigm of "why don't you just wait and see what the codex says before judging it": This is a pointless argument, because you assume the codex will be wonderful, however this has no more basis than those who assume the codex will be terrible. That is why this is a rumours thread. We speculate and discuss based upon the rumours. I will take my leave from the soapbox, now.
It amuses me that people are crying that Necrons don't have any good antitank firepower. Has the notion of armies having actual weaknesses ever even occurred to your addle-coved imaginings? Clearly not.
And that potential cover is TERRIBLE. Someone should photoshop it into a Manowar album.
azazel the cat wrote:As to anyone who is working within the paradigm of "why don't you just wait and see what the codex says before judging it": This is a pointless argument, because you assume the codex will be wonderful, however this has no more basis than those who assume the codex will be terrible. That is why this is a rumours thread. We speculate and discuss based upon the rumours. I will take my leave from the soapbox, now.
That simply doesn't make sense. It's making definitive pronouncements about new/revised units on the basis of incomplete/inaccurate information that is pointless. By all means debate it, but leave some room for the possibility that you don't have the full picture. Playing some actualy games using a new codex a few times doesn't hurt either.
Agamemnon2 wrote:It amuses me that people are crying that Necrons don't have any good antitank firepower. Has the notion of armies having actual weaknesses ever even occurred to your addle-coved imaginings? Clearly not.
And that potential cover is TERRIBLE. Someone should photoshop it into a Manowar album.
necrons already have a weakness: close combat. So if tanks are also a weakness, then it's time for the Necrons to conquer the world of mid-range shooty armies! ...wait. The only mid-range shooty army... are the Necrons.
Agamemnon2 wrote:It amuses me that people are crying that Necrons don't have any good antitank firepower. Has the notion of armies having actual weaknesses ever even occurred to your addle-coved imaginings? Clearly not.
And that potential cover is TERRIBLE. Someone should photoshop it into a Manowar album.
You mean beside I2, no cc ability worth noting (may change with new codex, can't tell until we've played it a bit), expensive, open topped slow skimmers?
In a mech heavy meta it's nice to have something to crack vehicles with Orks lack decent antitank at range, but they makeup for it by being actually quite good in CC, something necrons aren't actually known for
Usually the only people i find touting that armies should have glaring weaknesses are Marine players, with codexes that don't have any glaring weaknesses
Agamemnon2 wrote:It amuses me that people are crying that Necrons don't have any good antitank firepower. Has the notion of armies having actual weaknesses ever even occurred to your addle-coved imaginings?.
Seeing as how they have been suffering from that same weakness for the past 7 years.... NO, it hasn't crossed our minds that they would continue to have the same problem after a new codex.
azazel the cat wrote:As to anyone who is working within the paradigm of "why don't you just wait and see what the codex says before judging it": This is a pointless argument, because you assume the codex will be wonderful, however this has no more basis than those who assume the codex will be terrible. That is why this is a rumours thread. We speculate and discuss based upon the rumours. I will take my leave from the soapbox, now.
That simply doesn't make sense. It's making definitive pronouncements about new/revised units on the basis of incomplete/inaccurate information that is pointless. By all means debate it, but leave some room for the possibility that you don't have the full picture. Playing some actualy games using a new codex a few times doesn't hurt either.
Please read the caveats of my second paragraph. And thanks for showing up.
Agamemnon2 wrote:It amuses me that people are crying that Necrons don't have any good antitank firepower. Has the notion of armies having actual weaknesses ever even occurred to your addle-coved imaginings? Clearly not.
And that potential cover is TERRIBLE. Someone should photoshop it into a Manowar album.
necrons already have a weakness: close combat. So if tanks are also a weakness, then it's time for the Necrons to conquer the world of mid-range shooty armies! ...wait. The only mid-range shooty army... are the Necrons.
Sisters. At least your roboskeletons are better than Sisters.
Ascalam wrote:Usually the only people i find touting that armies should have glaring weaknesses are Marine players, with codexes that don't have any glaring weaknesses
azazel the cat wrote:I must admit, I'm somewhat concerned that (what I consider to be) the Necron's biggest weakness is still present, and has not actually been addressed at all. Close combat. I'm well aware that there are many shiny new CC-designated units in the new codex, but all the Troops choices seem like they will still be less than worthless in CC. Three different types of Flayed-Ones-on-steroids will in no way prevent either of the two Troops choices from getting swept time and again. Necron Warriors only ever needed some CC wargear options, maybe a power weapon or a two-hands option, like a pistol + CC weapon combo. Instead, we seem to have been given only CC specialty units, which do nothing for the original problem.
Now let's examine the Ghost Ark. I'm operating on the rumours of about 120 points, the ability to resurrect troops, and the teaser shielding. On the table, if any opponent (read: everyone) knows that it can resurrect warriors, then it becomes a target. Which means it lives for about two turns. One turn to wipe out the shield, and one turn to destroy the vehicle. But, it's a transport, so two turns is all it needs to deliver it's warrior payload, then mission accomplished, right? Well, when your 50-point Rhino explodes after delivering its Marines, you don't care. It's only 50 points, and got its job done. But when your 120-point model explodes after delivering its Warriors, you get a little upset, because you paid a very high price for its resurrection ability, which carries within its price the expectation that the vehicle survives more than two turns.
By the way, if I never said it before, I am grateful to Yakface for the info. I don't like much of what I'm hearing, but I'm still glad that I'm hearing it. Please do not ever forget that.
As to anyone who is working within the paradigm of "why don't you just wait and see what the codex says before judging it": This is a pointless argument, because you assume the codex will be wonderful, however this has no more basis than those who assume the codex will be terrible. That is why this is a rumours thread. We speculate and discuss based upon the rumours. I will take my leave from the soapbox, now.
The Royal Court can be broken off, and added to Lead squads. So you can give the Squad the Power weapon, and War sycthe Option that you are talking about. I think this goes a long way in mitigating that problem.
The Ghost Ark is not cheap, and will likely be a priority. But if that keeps your other transports, and your heavy hitting Vehicles around long enough to eliminate the Opponents Anti-Tank, then it's well worth it. We won't know for sure until the Army sees play for a few months though.
Agamemnon2 wrote:It amuses me that people are crying that Necrons don't have any good antitank firepower. Has the notion of armies having actual weaknesses ever even occurred to your addle-coved imaginings? Clearly not.
And that potential cover is TERRIBLE. Someone should photoshop it into a Manowar album.
necrons already have a weakness: close combat. So if tanks are also a weakness, then it's time for the Necrons to conquer the world of mid-range shooty armies! ...wait. The only mid-range shooty army... are the Necrons.
Sisters. At least your roboskeletons are better than Sisters.
I don't play against Sisters all that much, but isn't the Exorcist pretty good at tankbusting? And can't their troops carry melta guns?
Vaktathi wrote:I'm kinda sad the Tomb Stalker didn't make it in, would have added some very cool feel and is an excellent model.
It may yet. There's a precedent with the Terrorgheist for Vampire Counts in White Dwarf, and the Night Spinner for Eldar.
Unlikely, but not impossible.
Sasori wrote:The Royal Court can be broken off, and added to Lead squads. So you can give the Squad the Power weapon, and War sycthe Option that you are talking about. I think this goes a long way in mitigating that problem.
The Ghost Ark is not cheap, and will likely be a priority. But if that keeps your other transports, and your heavy hitting Vehicles around long enough to eliminate the Opponents Anti-Tank, then it's well worth it. We won't know for sure until the Army sees play for a few months though.
The Royal Court point I will concede. That may be just enough to make the difference, there. But as to the issue with the Ghost Ark, I must ask: what 'other transports'? Only the Ghost Ark is a transport. And if you mean the Monolith, I think the price tags prevent spamming vehicles. 2x Monoliths and 2x Ghost Arks will cost 640 points, if the rumours are correct. And that's assuming the transports can be dedicated, because otherwise this exceeds the FOC heavy slots already.
And the Doomsday Ark, if it only gets a single shot per turn if it doesn't move, it had better be very cheap to field. Compare it to something like an Exorcist, or a Rail Gun, or a Longfang, or that horrendous IG thing.
azazel the cat wrote:I must admit, I'm somewhat concerned that (what I consider to be) the Necron's biggest weakness is still present, and has not actually been addressed at all. Close combat. I'm well aware that there are many shiny new CC-designated units in the new codex, but all the Troops choices seem like they will still be less than worthless in CC. Three different types of Flayed-Ones-on-steroids will in no way prevent either of the two Troops choices from getting swept time and again. Necron Warriors only ever needed some CC wargear options, maybe a power weapon or a two-hands option, like a pistol + CC weapon combo. Instead, we seem to have been given only CC specialty units, which do nothing for the original problem.
Troops are all terrible unless they're designed for CC? This is an...odd opinion, to say the least.
What exactly are IG Vets, Kabalite Warriors, or even standard Tactical Marines beating in Assault?
For the most part (except the IG example) it's never been so much about using your Troops to perform Assaults (which is often counterproductive to the stationary nature of holding objectives, as assaults require you to go to the enemy) but having proper specialized Assault units to engage the enemy to keep them off your Troops, or counter-Assault to bail them out or at least prevent a single unit from walking through your lines.
Which is exactly what Necrons used to suffer from. If an Assault unit came to visit them, their options were:
A). Teleport away, contingent on a Monolith/Veil being alive/nearby and surviving the first round of Assault without being Swept
B). Pray a unit of Wraiths or a C'tan are nearby
C). Watch their whole army die
And the idea that Necron Warriors "only ever needed a Pistol + CCW option" is borderline insane, by the way. That would never change anything ever, aside from crippling the one thing they're good at.
Giving them some specialized Assault units is exactly what they needed. Yes, one of the glaring weaknesses of the old book was that Warriors were easy to Sweep off the board, but saying "MAKE WARRIORS AWESOME AT COMBAT!" is oversimplifying things just a bit too much--and honestly missing the cause of the problem. If you have scary things to put in front of the Warriors, people just can't smash into them anymore.
azazel the cat wrote:
Sasori wrote:The Royal Court can be broken off, and added to Lead squads. So you can give the Squad the Power weapon, and War sycthe Option that you are talking about. I think this goes a long way in mitigating that problem.
The Ghost Ark is not cheap, and will likely be a priority. But if that keeps your other transports, and your heavy hitting Vehicles around long enough to eliminate the Opponents Anti-Tank, then it's well worth it. We won't know for sure until the Army sees play for a few months though.
The Royal Court point I will concede. That may be just enough to make the difference, there. But as to the issue with the Ghost Ark, I must ask: what 'other transports'? Only the Ghost Ark is a transport.
The Night Scythe is the Transport for most units. It's a Fast Skimmer with a 15-model capacity.
Sasori wrote:The Royal Court can be broken off, and added to Lead squads. So you can give the Squad the Power weapon, and War sycthe Option that you are talking about. I think this goes a long way in mitigating that problem.
The Ghost Ark is not cheap, and will likely be a priority. But if that keeps your other transports, and your heavy hitting Vehicles around long enough to eliminate the Opponents Anti-Tank, then it's well worth it. We won't know for sure until the Army sees play for a few months though.
The Royal Court point I will concede. That may be just enough to make the difference, there. But as to the issue with the Ghost Ark, I must ask: what 'other transports'? Only the Ghost Ark is a transport. And if you mean the Monolith, I think the price tags prevent spamming vehicles. 2x Monoliths and 2x Ghost Arks will cost 640 points, if the rumours are correct. And that's assuming the transports can be dedicated, because otherwise this exceeds the FOC heavy slots already.
And the Doomsday Ark, if it only gets a single shot per turn if it doesn't move, it had better be very cheap to field. Compare it to something like an Exorcist, or a Rail Gun, or a Longfang, or that horrendous IG thing.
The Night Scythe is also a transport. The Ghost Ark is only for warriors. Both of those are Dedicated Transports. The Command barge is a Dedicated transport as well, but I really need to see more info about this before I make any judgements.
The Doomsday Ark, I imagine will probably be in the 130-150 Points range. While it's a Single Shot, it's 72' and is a Str 9 Ap1 Large blast (While not moving). While probably not as good as a Manticore (I assume that's what you are referring to for IG) It's still pretty nice. At that range it shouldn't have to move either.
JGrand wrote:There is waaaay to much whining about how Crons are underpowered when only 1 person here has seen the codex. To all of those discounting Necron vehicles, you do realize that the whole army will be dropping down at AV 13, right?
At 2k 10+ AV 13 vehicles will be a tough nut to crack, even for Psyfleman and Long Fangs. 3 Psyfleman will hit with roughly 10 shots and do on average about 1 glance, 1 pen and 1 glance/pen. Factor in cover saves and that's not a whole lot. Long Fangs average about the same. What seems to be the problem there?
The problem is that these damaged, expensive vehicles are now AV11 open topped non-fast and therefore doomed. So once the first damage result goes though, if the target isn't dead yet, it likely will be.
So far the army seems to depend on short ranged, non-rending, non-AP1, non-melta, non-lance weapons for AT work. That's not a good sign. Not impossible, but not good. Entropic strike sounds good, but then remember that Scarabs no longer move 12" and they still have to hit. Hitting a moving vehicle, you know, that 4+ or 6+ thing. At least it's not a 4+ for the armor reduction to kick in anymore.
Monoliths seem pretty garbage now. The only reason they were good was that you couldn't just melta/lance them to death. Now they are little more than giant 'Suicide melta target here' signs that have to get close to the enemy to do anything. Note the problem with that design?
The Doomsday Ark, I imagine will probably be in the 130-150 Points range. While it's a Single Shot, it's 72' and is a Str 9 Ap1 Large blast (While not moving). While probably not as good as a Manticore (I assume that's what you are referring to for IG) It's still pretty nice. At that range it shouldn't have to move either.
I agree, with a 72" range, I wouldnt move it ever.
JGrand wrote:There is waaaay to much whining about how Crons are underpowered when only 1 person here has seen the codex. To all of those discounting Necron vehicles, you do realize that the whole army will be dropping down at AV 13, right?
At 2k 10+ AV 13 vehicles will be a tough nut to crack, even for Psyfleman and Long Fangs. 3 Psyfleman will hit with roughly 10 shots and do on average about 1 glance, 1 pen and 1 glance/pen. Factor in cover saves and that's not a whole lot. Long Fangs average about the same. What seems to be the problem there?
The problem is that these damaged, expensive vehicles are now AV11 open topped non-fast and therefore doomed.
So far the army seems to depend on short ranged, non-rending, non-AP1, non-melta, non-lance weapons for AT work. That's not a good sign. Not impossible, but not good. Entropic strike sounds good, but then remember that Scarabs no longer move 12" and they still have to hit. Hitting a moving vehicle. At least it's not a 4+ for the armor reduction anymore.
Monoliths seem pretty garbage now. The only reason they were good was that you couldn't just melta/lance them to death. Now they are little more than giant 'Suicide melta target here' signs that have to get close to the enemy to do anything. Note the problem with that design?
Yak posted a long post about the Necron Anti-tank a few pages back, and it looks like we'll have plenty.
Monoliths have had a 35 point reduction, and are still Av 14 all around. They can also fire all their weapons, which includes 4 sets of Heavy 3 Flux Arcs, and The Particle whip. It can also use it's portal to transport units to it, or use it to suck in enemies within 6'. I don't think anyone expected it maintain it's unkillable status from before. Is it Weaker? Yes. Is it Garbage? No I don't think so.
For (rumoured) 12pts each, we shouldn't be expecting Warriors to be a utility unit, able to do any battlefield task with aplomb. Warriors are a shooting unit, always have been, and we shouldn't really expect them to do anything but that, and hold objectives. If you see the opportunity for an enemy CC unit to hit your Warriors, you should take steps to prevent that, instead of expecting Warriors to be able to defeat a dedicated CC unit in close combat. What -has- changed, as others have mentioned, is that we now have the ability to take excellent CC units ourselves, offering a potential counter to our enemies' CC units.
2x Monoliths and 2x Ghost Arks will cost 640 points, if the rumours are correct. And that's assuming the transports can be dedicated, because otherwise this exceeds the FOC heavy slots already
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, Ghost Arks are Dedicated Transports, apparently, nothing else, and Monoliths are single HS choices. Why wouldn't you be able to take 2 Monos in a normal list? The Ghost Arks aren't taking up any slots. Remember Yakface clarified that he meant one Mono per force organisation -choice-, so you can still have up to three monoliths if'n you want.
Anyone else notice the codex cover has the green rods on the weaponry? I am once again thinking the design team simply painted over theirs as the rods are no longer a "selling point" of the army.
The Grog wrote:Monoliths seem pretty garbage now. The only reason they were good was that you couldn't just melta/lance them to death. Now they are little more than giant 'Suicide melta target here' signs that have to get close to the enemy to do anything. Note the problem with that design?
It's impossible to judge Monoliths until we know the exact mechanics of the Portal. Specifically, how it interacts with Assault.
Via the old rules, you could Assault as normal following a Teleport, and even move normally if the Monolith had not yet moved.
Now take that and consider it in conjunction with a unit of Triarch Praetorians. S5 Power Weapons that can potentially perform 21" Assaults (3" effective disembark, 12" move, 6" assault) coming out of the Portal. The rest of the Codex getting better makes the Monolith better by association, because it still has the capability to act as a support vehicle. Staring blindly at the nerfs and declaring it to be garbage is shortsighted.
If the Portal works like it did before, Monoliths compare just fine to something like a Land Raider Crusader. 12 S5 AP4 shots + S8 AP3 Large Blast that can fire at separate targets vs. 6-12 S4 AP5 shots + 4 S6 AP4 Rending shots, one of which can fire at a separate target. Both have similar capabilities as far as delivering Assault units, and the Monolith is ~50 points cheaper and can ignore Shaken/Stunned.
DJ3 wrote:Troops are all terrible unless they're designed for CC? This is an...odd opinion, to say the least.
I didn't say 'designed for CC'. I'd be perfectly happy with 'not drooling invalids'.
DJ3 wrote:What exactly are IG Vets, Kabalite Warriors, or even standard Tactical Marines beating in Assault?
A squad of tactical marines will beat Necrons in assault any day. IG never need to assault because they pound the troops with so many pie plates that assault isn't a necessary option that I'm aware of.
DJ3 wrote:And the idea that Necron Warriors "only ever needed a Pistol + CCW option" is borderline insane, by the way. That would never change anything ever, aside from crippling the one thing they're good at.
Losing combat means you took more wounds than the other guys. My thinking is more swings with weapons in CC = more wounds dealt. 10 Necron warriors get ten Str 4 rolls in CC currently. If some of them were double-fisting weapons, they would get more rolls. More rolls = more potential wounds. More potential wounds = losing combat by a more narrow margin. Narrow margin = more survivability to get the chance to be teleported out of combat.
DJ3 wrote:Giving them some specialized Assault units is exactly what they needed. Yes, one of the glaring weaknesses of the old book was that Warriors were easy to Sweep off the board, but saying "MAKE WARRIORS AWESOME AT COMBAT!" is oversimplifying things just a bit too much--and honestly missing the cause of the problem. If you have scary things to put in front of the Warriors, people just can't smash into them anymore.
Necrons already had specialized combat units. And I didn't say "MAKE WARRIORS AWESOME AT COMBAT!!!1". I said, in very unsimplified terms, that Necrons needed something to allow them to survive combat. You are the one who has oversimplified this. It's not a polarizing issue; there is lots of middle ground between 'awesome at close combat' and 'whatever it is Necrons do in close combat now'. It would just be nice to see Necrons not curl up and get swept so easily, and dedicated CC units will not help the troops avoid this.
azazel the cat wrote:Necrons already had specialized combat units. And I didn't say "MAKE WARRIORS AWESOME AT COMBAT!!!1". I said, in very unsimplified terms, that Necrons needed something to allow them to survive combat. You are the one who has oversimplified this. It's not a polarizing issue; there is lots of middle ground between 'awesome at close combat' and 'whatever it is Necrons do in close combat now'. It would just be nice to see Necrons not curl up and get swept so easily, and dedicated CC units will not help the troops avoid this.
If you don't think having specialized CC units can help prevent your Troops from being swept, then I think we're going to have a disagreement at a very fundamental level in regard to how tactics work.
It seems like you're asking for things to be made easier rather than better. Making Warriors better at CC is easy, but is rather directly opposed to the theme of the army. Giving the player the tools to protect the Warriors is better, but requires you to actually, y'know, make use of them in coordination.
azazel the cat wrote:Necrons already had specialized combat units. And I didn't say "MAKE WARRIORS AWESOME AT COMBAT!!!1". I said, in very unsimplified terms, that Necrons needed something to allow them to survive combat. You are the one who has oversimplified this. It's not a polarizing issue; there is lots of middle ground between 'awesome at close combat' and 'whatever it is Necrons do in close combat now'. It would just be nice to see Necrons not curl up and get swept so easily, and dedicated CC units will not help the troops avoid this.
If you don't think having specialized CC units can help prevent your Troops from being swept, then I think we're going to have a disagreement at a very fundamental level in regard to how tactics work.
It seems like you're asking for things to be made easier rather than better. Making Warriors better at CC is easy, but is rather directly opposed to the theme of the army. Giving the player the tools to protect the Warriors is better, but requires you to actually, y'know, make use of them in coordination.
What I'm asking for is to be able to field an army that doesn't assume being swept in CC is a given. At present -and assuming I do keep my Necrons- my first thought is to place a line of the guys with shields right in front of the troops phalanx. Shots -maybe- reflected and some CC to protect the phalanx from assault. I just don't like being forced to make my troops constantly edge away so that dedicated CC can get between them and the enemy. It always feels like a sheepdog keeping the herd away from the wolves. Maybe I am just lazy and would prefer the easier option. Honestly, I think my willingness to accept this element of Necron tactics will really depend a lot more on how Phase-Out works in the new Codex. ...Is there any word on that? I don't think I've seen anything either way about it.
Small squads of transported DE Warriors get a blaster. The trueborn get four. Marines get a meltagun. Some other Marines get two. IG Vets get three. Orks get a klaw and can get rokkits. GK Henchmen are actually all armed with special weapons, and small units of Purifiers have two psycannons each. Wracks get a liquifier...
What do those transported Necron Warriors get in the new book? What's their function? They are Space Marine Scouts that can't infiltrate now with no bp/ccw in their backpacks and a ridiculously low initiative and no ATSKNF or other special rules (BA/SW etc). They have the 5+ repair but firstly remember how small a bonus that is (you have 4 guys down, one might stand back up) and the fact that most of the time they will all be down in a phase since the opponent will be focusing the fire. What's the game plan for the Warriors except trying to hide them all game so they could claim an objective later? What's the price tag of an attached Cryptek with some anti-tank weapon like a meltagun or blaster?
Are Immortals troops automatically or does that require a special character? Even though their weapons seem to have been nerfed I can think of a lot more uses for 5man squads of Immortals in Barges or Night Scythes, than Warriors. Atleast they still got 3+ saves and guns that aren't nothing but glorified boltguns.
Large units of Warriors/Immortals are just asking to be wiped out in one brutal phase of close combat so you'll be using min-sized squads just like everyone else. It's pretty bad for Necrons that when you take small squads you won't get your repair rolls to shooting, and when you take a large squad you're putting yourself in an awful place regarding assault. The troops choices don't seem very useful at all and you'll want to invest as little points in them as you can get away with.
azazel the cat wrote:As to anyone who is working within the paradigm of "why don't you just wait and see what the codex says before judging it": This is a pointless argument, because you assume the codex will be wonderful, however this has no more basis than those who assume the codex will be terrible. That is why this is a rumours thread. We speculate and discuss based upon the rumours. I will take my leave from the soapbox, now.
While I disagree bitterly with most of the things you've posted, I'll back you up 100% here.
We're discussing the codex based on the pieces of information that are available to us, and it's perfectly fine to isolate what we know for the purposes of discussion. It's impossible to take a instantaneous, holistic view of a codex (even after it's released); you build your opinion brick-by-brick, and right now we're dealing with the first shipment of bricks.
eg. If an important weapon is reported to be S4, and you think that is insufficient, it makes so much more sense to say "I don't think that S4 weapon will be sufficient" than it does to say "well maybe the book will contain another rule that makes an insufficient S4 weapon sufficient!"
I remember being told the same things during the pre-leaks of the Tyranid codex, and then when it was all said and done every dire prediction that was extrapolated from uncertain rumours turned out to be accurate.
Therion wrote:Small squads of transported DE Warriors get a blaster. The trueborn get four. Marines get a meltagun. Some other Marines get two. IG Vets get three. Orks get a klaw and can get rokkits. GK Henchmen are actually all armed with special weapons, and small units of Purifiers have two psycannons each. Wracks get a liquifier...
What do those transported Necron Warriors get in the new book? What's their function? They are Space Marine Scouts that can't infiltrate now with no bp/ccw in their backpacks and a ridiculously low initiative and no ATSKNF or other special rules (BA/SW etc). They have the 5+ repair but firstly remember how small a bonus that is (you have 4 guys down, one might stand back up) and the fact that most of the time they will all be down in a phase since the opponent will be focusing the fire. What's the game plan for the Warriors except trying to hide them all game so they could claim an objective later? What's the price tag of an attached Cryptek with some anti-tank weapon like a meltagun or blaster?
Are Immortals troops automatically or does that require a special character? Even though their weapons seem to have been nerfed I can think of a lot more uses for 5man squads of Immortals in Barges or Night Scythes, than Warriors. Atleast they still got 3+ saves and guns that aren't nothing but glorified boltguns.
Large units of Warriors/Immortals are just asking to be wiped out in one brutal phase of close combat so you'll be using min-sized squads just like everyone else. It's pretty bad for Necrons that when you take small squads you won't get your repair rolls to shooting, and when you take a large squad you're putting yourself in an awful place regarding assault. The troops choices don't seem very useful at all and you'll want to invest as little points in them as you can get away with.
Oh, thank Jebus someone else sees the same problem that I do. I was worried that absolutely everyone was drinking the Kool-Aid.
)
Why did they even bother to change them is beyond me.
. Why don't you just sell 6 of your Destroyers and use the funds to purchase some of the newer units? I mean, your scarabs, immortals, monos, and warriors are still legit.
as the space wolves come to kick their ass. 
