If you have access to UK TV Channel 4 are showing Predators tomorrow night. For me there are 3 must sees Alien, Aliens and Predator. Then there is Alien 3, Predators and Predator 2 overall decent films but flawed in places. The directors/extended cuts are better than the theatrical releases. After that we have Alien Resurrection and the AvP films they're still watchable and I've seen them many times each has the odd stand out scene but really they aren't a patch on the original films. I still think there's a really good AvP film that can be made but the 2 things that have spoilt them so far is the need to keep them on Earth to keep the budget down and the need to have humans very involved so we have more of a connection to the film - I wish someone had the guts to do an AvP film with minimal humans in it but tha's not going to happen.
RiTides wrote: So, with that said, what is your recommended viewing order for me to catch up on this?
And even more importantly, what is the terrible one (ones?) that people seem to want to blot from their memories, that I will probably skip?
Watch Alien, Aliens and Predator. Alien3 makes Aliens less enjoyable by association - people who have watched it will know why - but it would have been good if not for that. Alien Resurrection is enjoyable in its own way, but really doesn't feel like an Alien movie. Prometheus is crap. AvP lacks the Aliens vs. Predator vs. Colonial Marines situation that should have been a prerequisite for an AvP movie.
Oh lol reading the KS comments and I see there following the CMON school of customer service. Snide and sarcastic comments to backers with some backhanded insults to mantic mixed in as well.
Mark from Prodos (most likely using the account) is a very nice guy but lacks tact and guile sometimes. He says it the way it is which rubs some people the wrong way and may not be the best approach. He is however a really nice guy and will typically answer any questions you may have.
Sounds like maybe Rob should be the one responding to the KS comments, these guys are clearly emotionally involved with the project and have trouble keeping a professional demeanor.
RiTides wrote: So, with that said, what is your recommended viewing order for me to catch up on this?
And even more importantly, what is the terrible one (ones?) that people seem to want to blot from their memories, that I will probably skip?
Watch Alien, Aliens and Predator. Alien3 makes Aliens less enjoyable by association - people who have watched it will know why - but it would have been good if not for that. Alien Resurrection is enjoyable in its own way, but really doesn't feel like an Alien movie. Prometheus is crap. AvP lacks the Aliens vs. Predator vs. Colonial Marines situation that should have been a prerequisite for an AvP movie.
So what does it mean that I liked Prometheus, then
RiTides wrote: So, with that said, what is your recommended viewing order for me to catch up on this?
And even more importantly, what is the terrible one (ones?) that people seem to want to blot from their memories, that I will probably skip?
Watch Alien, Aliens and Predator. Alien3 makes Aliens less enjoyable by association - people who have watched it will know why - but it would have been good if not for that. Alien Resurrection is enjoyable in its own way, but really doesn't feel like an Alien movie. Prometheus is crap. AvP lacks the Aliens vs. Predator vs. Colonial Marines situation that should have been a prerequisite for an AvP movie.
I'm going to stand up for Prometheus. Perhaps because I didn't see it until it was released on disc, and despite my best attempts had picked up one or two snippets about why people had issues with it, I went in with an open mind and low expectations, but I thoroughly enjoyed it. Sometimes expectations can really spoil one's enjoyment of a movie, and I can see how more hardcore fans than I who had been waiting for this movie for years would have been left disappointed.
azreal13 wrote: I'm going to stand up for Prometheus. Perhaps because I didn't see it until it was released on disc, and despite my best attempts had picked up one or two snippets about why people had issues with it, I went in with an open mind and low expectations, but I thoroughly enjoyed it. Sometimes expectations can really spoil one's enjoyment of a movie, and I can see how more hardcore fans than I who had been waiting for this movie for years would have been left disappointed.
...and also maybe why someone with an uncluttered mind, such as myself, could enjoy it knowing nothing about the previous ones
Will see if I still think it's worthwhile after viewing the first ones!
What I really like about Prometheus is that whenever I see one of the Navigators alongside a regular human, I can't help but think, "Now that's an unarmoured space marine!"
Also, less than a thousand quid away from a free face full of alien wing-wong.
RiTides wrote: Guys, thanks VERY much for the tips on what to watch, I'll try to get started on it this weekend
Going to prioritize:
Predator, Predators
Alien, Aliens
Predators getting in thanks to Hulk's and others' recommendation . Apparently no one like "Predator 2", I don't see that recommended anywhere
If I'm still going strong after these, I'll try Aliens 3
I would say that those are 4 gooood movies. I liked pred 2 a lot, mostly because Danny glover. But please make room for alien 3. I love that film, such a great ending to what was originally a trilogy... and it had the coolest poster.
RiTides wrote: So what does it mean that I liked Prometheus, then
azreal13 wrote: I'm going to stand up for Prometheus. Perhaps because I didn't see it until it was released on disc, and despite my best attempts had picked up one or two snippets about why people had issues with it, I went in with an open mind and low expectations, but I thoroughly enjoyed it. Sometimes expectations can really spoil one's enjoyment of a movie, and I can see how more hardcore fans than I who had been waiting for this movie for years would have been left disappointed.
I expect a certain amount of competence from the protagonists. Falling prey to understandable character flaws* or being blindsided by an Outside Context Problem* is fine, but being a complete imbecile* is not.
*
Spoiler:
Like a bunch of space truck drivers breaking quarantine to rescue one of their crew.
Like not being able to cope emotionally with the fact that your squadmates are going to be turned into living incubators for some alien monstrosity.
Like a biologist finding a cobra-like alien, acting like a cobra, and not keeping his distance.
RiTides wrote: So what does it mean that I liked Prometheus, then
I like Colonial Marines myself, nobody is infallible.
Ewewewewwwwwww
I liked Prometheus too, actually. Parts of it didn't make sense, but parts of it were great, and Fassbender killed it (or...caused it to mutate horribly, or what have you).
There's a script that's supposedly the original draft floating around - Aliens: Engineers. Overall it looks much better than what made it to the screen (so many problems are solved by making the redshirts, errr, supporting cast cranky space miners instead of the world's top scientists) . The one problem is that David does a 180 from an interesting character with human emotions and inhuman values to Generic Evil Robot #4078. If only we could have had both...
RiTides wrote: Guys, thanks VERY much for the tips on what to watch, I'll try to get started on it this weekend
Going to prioritize:
Predator, Predators
Alien, Aliens
Predators getting in thanks to Hulk's and others' recommendation . Apparently no one like "Predator 2", I don't see that recommended anywhere
If I'm still going strong after these, I'll try Aliens 3
I would say that those are 4 gooood movies. I liked pred 2 a lot, mostly because Danny glover. But please make room for alien 3. I love that film, such a great ending to what was originally a trilogy... and it had the coolest poster.
Really???? Danny Glover? In what world does a guy like danny glover do what jessie ventrua, carl weathers, and the big indian dude could not? It took arnie to near death before he killed it and danny glover survived? Shenanigans
Okay chaps, let's not get too far afield. Some discussion of the movies is definitely on-topic and encouraged. This is a big moment for the fans after all! But if anyone wants to extensively debate the merits of the movies qua cinema, please start a thread in the OT Forum and be sure to link it here. Thanks!
RiTides wrote: Guys, thanks VERY much for the tips on what to watch, I'll try to get started on it this weekend
Going to prioritize:
Predator, Predators
Alien, Aliens
Predators getting in thanks to Hulk's and others' recommendation . Apparently no one like "Predator 2", I don't see that recommended anywhere
If I'm still going strong after these, I'll try Aliens 3
I would say that those are 4 gooood movies. I liked pred 2 a lot, mostly because Danny glover. But please make room for alien 3. I love that film, such a great ending to what was originally a trilogy... and it had the coolest poster.
Really???? Danny Glover? In what world does a guy like danny glover do what jessie ventrua, carl weathers, and the big indian dude could not? It took arnie to near death before he killed it and danny glover survived? Shenanigans
With the 85K goal down, hopefully we'll get a preview pic of the Alien Warriors listed at 100K, as we did for the other stretch goals
After that is the Predator Hellhound, which I'm equally excited to see a model of, after googling what it looked like! I could use that for all sorts of things...
Thanks for that, BrookM. Also an interesting comment from Prodos:
Prodos wrote:@Rick, Prodos Games is the solo license holder for Alien, Aliens, Alien 3, AvP, Predator, Predator 2 and Predators Miniatures. We as a license holder have nothing to do with the indigogo campaign.
@Anthony, the game play video will be up soon.
and something special is on its way with a £100k stretch goal ;]
Eldercaveman wrote: Ok can someone give me the idiots guide to kick starting?
Never backed one before, I fancied this one, then kind of went cold on it. Now I'm getting swept along with all the recent hype in this thread.
You just go to the page and select the amount of money you would like to pledge. For example, if you pick "Pledge £75 or more" you will just get the base game, the next one down is the game plus £60 that you can spend on add-on items.
When you select your pledge Kickstarter will take you to the billing screen where you put in all your info, but you won't be charged until the campaign ends.
After the campaign is over, they will set up a Pledge Manager web page and you can use that to finalize your order and purchase add-on items with your extra add-on credit if you picked a higher pledge. Then they make the game and ship it to you when it's done
You just go to the page and select the amount of money you would like to pledge. For example, if you pick "Pledge £75 or more" you will just get the base game, the next one down is the game plus £60 that you can spend on add-on items.
When you select your pledge Kickstarter will take you to the billing screen where you put in all your info, but you won't be charged until the campaign ends.
After the campaign is over, they will set up a Pledge Manager web page and you can use that to finalize your order and purchase add-on items with your extra add-on credit if you picked a higher pledge. Then they make the game and ship it to you when it's done
Should have mentioned the 6 month to one year wait for the product...
So.... call me crazy, but why would anyone take one of the $15 models as their freebie, when you could take a $25+ squad-box?
I mean... i'm gonna end up buying everything anyway, but just for efficiency-sake... :-p
I do wish the "free add-on" goal scaled though. I feel like it would be a nice show of appreciation for those who already threw $500 at this thing, to get a little more beyond what someone at $150 is getting.
"If successful this KS project will allows Prodos Games Ltd to produce the AvP The Hunt Begins Board Game (which will be produced in standard plastic 1 piece format for late 2014 release) in a bespoked and limited (to KS) fashion specifically for the model connoisseur and collector alike. "
As someone who is only interested in the game and not how detailed and posable the models are (I hate modeling), I am glad to see that the game will have one piece figures available this time next year for a wider release. That allows me plenty of time to save up for multiple copies.
This is a board game and not a wargame? If so, why is there a $400 pledge level - what I am missing? Who spends more than $100 on a board game?
$100 is no longer out of the question with board games- FFG in particular has a ton around the $100 mark, and IIRC Kingdom Death is expected to come in at around $150 when it hits retail
Basic set is the board game. Part of kickstarter funding goes to making the wargame (read the part about commanding a BN of Marines agains an alien nesting site...)
The KS version of the boardgame will have multipart high detailed resin figures. Late in 2014 a retail version with simpler plastic figures will be released. It should come in under what the KS version does as a result.
Dunno what I want for the freebie either. I'll probably get more bugs. Still holding onto my addon credit in hopes of APCs or drop ships or queens .. guessing the queen will be the last goal in the graphic since it's got a queen head...
We'll see won't we? Almost at 90k now, things are going nicely for a first day. I'm sure things will dip a bit soon, but we've got a nice start on things at the very least, kinda curious to see what that last USMC unlock will be.
Aw, was hoping for a better pic of the Alien Warriors that are unlocking at 100K. Well, shouldn't be too long to wait (I'm guessing late tonight, but they don't always update immediately so might have to wake up to the update)
Manchu wrote: But if anyone wants to extensively debate the merits of the movies qua cinema, please start a thread in the OT Forum and be sure to link it here. Thanks!
Also, great to see Prodos being clear about the material they are using! Future KS campaigns, take note
Prodos wrote:@Jake Young: We only say it is Polyurethane Plastic so that we don't mislead you guys. We are NOT using what is referred to in this industry as 'restic' as we believe it is a secondary material to Polyurethane. What is normally referred to as 'Plastic' in the infantry is Styrene Plastic and 'Resins' can be a huge variety of plastics, styrene based, urethane based and Epoxy are all very common.
Polyurethane is great because it captures detail, is easy to clean up and assemble, can be heated for reposing, be cut for conversions, mouldlines are easily removed with a scalpel or file, it is non-toxic and simply great to assemble, paint and play games with! Forgot to say! It is very sturdy, and snaps cleanly if it does snap (but it has to undergo quite a lot of stress for that to happen!).
I think it would be a great idea for us to show you guys by making a video of us working with some castings.
RiTides wrote: Aw, was hoping for a better pic of the Alien Warriors that are unlocking at 100K. Well, shouldn't be too long to wait (I'm guessing late tonight, but they don't always update immediately so might have to wake up to the update)
At this rate, maybe in the next hour or so we'll hit the 100k. Right now we're at 91,5k, not bad at all for a first day, especially one using a non-US currency.
Aw, was hoping for a better pic of the Alien Warriors that are unlocking at 100K. Well, shouldn't be too long to wait (I'm guessing late tonight, but they don't always update immediately so might have to wake up to the update)
LOVE the look of the Alien Warriors! I'm currently sitting at the £75 level, but might up it if more and more awesome paid add-ons get introduced. At the moment I'm only really interested in the Predalien and USCM Sergeant (one of which I'll get as a free add-on), but if Warriors are paid add-ons then I'll definitely pick up a set of those. Some Berserker Preds and Hellhounds would be epic too.
I hate to be That Guy about this, but that's clearly a monster from AvP:R, not Aliens, as was indicated earlier. I know most people won't care or will call me out as a pedantic fanboy (like seems to have happened to many people earlier in this thread), but seriously, this is wrong. Sure, they're similar, but to use an example most of you will get, if someone told you that you were getting a GW kit full of Mk IV armour, but then it turned out to be Mk VIII, wouldn't you at least be a bit confused?
I love the Preds and Marines, but I'm genuinely curious as to why Prodos are only using the modern* (and IMO inferior) designs for the Aliens... Is it something Fox has insisted on, maybe?
*Except for that A3/Stalker figure, that one is pretty nifty.
I hate to be That Guy about this, but that's clearly a monster from AvP:R, not Aliens, as was indicated earlier. I know most people won't care or will call me out as a pedantic fanboy (like seems to have happened to many people earlier in this thread), but seriously, this is wrong. Sure, they're similar, but to use an example most of you will get, if someone told you that you were getting a GW kit full of Mk IV armour, but then it turned out to be Mk VIII, wouldn't you at least be a bit confused?
I love the Preds and Marines, but I'm genuinely curious as to why Prodos are only using the modern* (and IMO inferior) designs for the Aliens... Is it something Fox has insisted on, maybe?
*Except for that A3/Stalker figure, that one is pretty nifty.
I have to agree with you, it's annoying they continue to use the inferior design when they have a better choice.
God Prodos.
(also Fox and Giger never got on, so you may be right...)
overtyrant wrote: Can anyone who has pledged please ask in the comments whether they will do a £1.00 pledge lvl for anyone who wants add ons but NOT the rules, thanks!
I already campaigned to get the 10 pound pledge to apply to international shipping, so I think that's the best I can do!
It would be a little more complicated (although not much) for them to add a 1-pound pledge because then they would need to specify what to add for UK backers versus international backers onto that pledge, which they haven't had to do up to this point (as UK shipping is obviously more than 1 pound).
warboss wrote: Really, we didn't cover that enough in the previous 10 pages of discussion on alien taxonomy??
I was reticent to bring it up, but this isn't just "muh feet", this is them claiming to be producing a specific creature from a specific film, and then making an entirely different (albiet quite similar) creature from an entirely different film. It's fine if you don't mind, but A) Prodos should have things labelled and advertised correctly when working from such a famous licence, and B) I was asking a valid question about whether this design choice has come from 20th Century Fox or Prodos themselves.
Maybe they want us to pledge more money to unlock the earlier / original movie Alien designs? Prodos have said all along that they're planning to release models from the entire Pedator / Alien universe...
Slightly OT, but atm you can get Aliens: Colonial Marines for $4 on Gamefly with this code "GFDNOV20", 75% off +20% off from code. Includes "Hell yeah!" too supposedly. Cheapest I've seen it, steam key.
Broken game, but $4... I'm sure that much value can be had heheh, so I finally picked it up.
Ruglud wrote: Maybe they want us to pledge more money to unlock the earlier / original movie Alien designs? Prodos have said all along that they're planning to release models from the entire Pedator / Alien universe...
That's what they said, that the 100k unlock would be the version of the Alien as seen in Aliens. That one's from AvP:R, which while having similar ridges to the skull, is very different in all other regards from James Camerons' version of the beast.
Again, for those of you who don't see the problem here, look to the different versions of GW space marines. There is literally no difference between this and releasing a new Black Templars box full of wolf icons and with no crosses. But they're all space marines right? Who cares?
I might have miscommunicated here- Prodos already clarified that the 10-pound pledge includes international shipping for add-ons. So, not sure if they'll be up for adding a 1-pound pledge (which would really only be of benefit to UK backers, although that would be nice for y'all, of course).
Let's just cool our jets and wait and see. The picture just shows a list of stuff we can have for free with some filler on the side, nowhere does it say or state that it is the design in question.
Automatically Appended Next Post: We're almost at 95k by the way, things are still going nicely in my humblest of opinions. Soon we'll have another update and then we'll see what the 100k mark has in store for us design wise.
BrookM wrote: Let's just cool our jets and wait and see. The picture just shows a list of stuff we can have for free with some filler on the side, nowhere does it say or state that it is the design in question.
Automatically Appended Next Post: We're almost at 95k by the way, things are still going nicely in my humblest of opinions. Soon we'll have another update and then we'll see what the 100k mark has in store for us design wise.
I think it's heavily implied in that image that that's the "warrior" Alien. But you're right, I'll wait til this actually hits 100k before I get too upset, and if I do want to have a whine about it, I'll go elsewhere.
warboss wrote: Really, we didn't cover that enough in the previous 10 pages of discussion on alien taxonomy??
Oh bloody hell, not this again... they're right though, you can tell by how the arm connects to the "shoulder". That said though, the model is still fantastic-looking, even if it isn't quite "bio-organic" enough.
So, the "Free Facehuggers in box" .. does that mean the actual retail box set is getting upgraded to include extra facehuggers, like you would get them if you went and bought the game at a game shop? Or is it just extra facehuggers for backers?
The actual retail box won't have most / any of these figs afaik, Necros... these are hand cast multipart resin models whereas the retail release of the main box will be single piece models, according to the KS page.
overtyrant wrote: Can anyone who has pledged please ask in the comments whether they will do a £1.00 pledge lvl for anyone who wants add ons but NOT the rules, thanks!
They're not going to do that because the cash there is basically paying for postage, the rules are just a sweetener
Also, great to see Prodos being clear about the material they are using! Future KS campaigns, take note
Prodos wrote:@Jake Young: We only say it is Polyurethane Plastic so that we don't mislead you guys. We are NOT using what is referred to in this industry as 'restic' as we believe it is a secondary material to Polyurethane. What is normally referred to as 'Plastic' in the infantry is Styrene Plastic and 'Resins' can be a huge variety of plastics, styrene based, urethane based and Epoxy are all very common.
Polyurethane is great because it captures detail, is easy to clean up and assemble, can be heated for reposing, be cut for conversions, mouldlines are easily removed with a scalpel or file, it is non-toxic and simply great to assemble, paint and play games with! Forgot to say! It is very sturdy, and snaps cleanly if it does snap (but it has to undergo quite a lot of stress for that to happen!).
I think it would be a great idea for us to show you guys by making a video of us working with some castings.
Is that yet another dig at mantic gee I am starting to think someone at prodos got sacked by mantic
Also restic is a polyurethane plastic and originally mantic called it as such but to many people got a stick up there ass about it being called a plastic when it was not the injection moulded stuff.
Also you think before you start randomly calling out another manufacturer in you 2nd ks you would have at least delivered the 1st tiny ks you had done.
Anyway going to come back in a week and see if theres any value to the pledges below £225.
Second, the price disconnect between the Predators and everything else is just galling. In the picture below we seems (based on the renders) to have a Predator (30 GBP for 3) versus an Infant Warrior (15 GBP for 5). In other words, the figure on the left is a 10 GBP figure, the one on the right is a 3 GBP figure. Would you really look at that and think that one of those was more then three times as expensive as the other, really now? Uch.
.
frankly? as a professional resin-caster? Seriously? Honestly?
Yes.
See that ultra-fine threads of mesh over the predators skin...? Very difficult to cast a lot of those without flaws and detail pulling-off in moulds (either the resin detail, or taking a chunk of the mould with it)
See the aliens smooth-surfaced limbs...? Easy on moulds, far more per-mould from those than the surfaces on the predator.
Don't fall into the common mistake that the VOLUME of the resin is the main cost factor - it isnt. Its all about mould longevity, ease of casting, failure rates and the number of parts.
So, yes. I can look at those two exact models and without needing to know anything more about them could definitively say that the Predator will cost more to produce...Does it precisely explain the price differential....
OK lets think a little more on costs...... will the number of Predators in a game be likely to equal the number of (either) Aliens or Marines...?
No.
In fact its almost certain that the number of Predators required in any game will be FAR less than Marines or Aliens. Far less.
So Prodos will sell less. .. so they need to recover their expenses over fewer sales.... and we already know the moulds will produce less.. so each figure will cost them more... . so now, just looking at the first two issue that popped into my head, we've discovered that, again, the answer to your question is "yes, really!"
That was really interesting Antenociti, thanks for writing it
At last some kind of logic to the price disparity.
Having looked at that 3d model of the female predator, looks like I am quite obviously wrong about it and that is the actual predator-race female, rather than Machiko as I'm sure I and a lot of the other AvP comic book fans were hoping
Prodos - if you are reading this, I will gladly give you a pound of my flesh for a miniature of Machiko before this KS has finished !
Also, great to see Prodos being clear about the material they are using! Future KS campaigns, take note
Prodos wrote:@Jake Young: We only say it is Polyurethane Plastic so that we don't mislead you guys. We are NOT using what is referred to in this industry as 'restic' as we believe it is a secondary material to Polyurethane. What is normally referred to as 'Plastic' in the infantry is Styrene Plastic and 'Resins' can be a huge variety of plastics, styrene based, urethane based and Epoxy are all very common.
Polyurethane is great because it captures detail, is easy to clean up and assemble, can be heated for reposing, be cut for conversions, mouldlines are easily removed with a scalpel or file, it is non-toxic and simply great to assemble, paint and play games with! Forgot to say! It is very sturdy, and snaps cleanly if it does snap (but it has to undergo quite a lot of stress for that to happen!).
I think it would be a great idea for us to show you guys by making a video of us working with some castings.
Is that yet another dig at mantic gee I am starting to think someone at prodos got sacked by mantic
Also restic is a polyurethane plastic and originally mantic called it as such but to many people got a stick up there ass about it being called a plastic when it was not the injection moulded stuff.
Also you think before you start randomly calling out another manufacturer in you 2nd ks you would have at least delivered the 1st tiny ks you had done.
Anyway going to come back in a week and see if theres any value to the pledges below £225.
Lol, complex much? I specifically said "future campaigns" to avoid anyone getting that idea... and yet, you got it, anyway!
It was an issue with multiple companies and has been discussed frequently on Dakka. Clarity on material is very much appreciated, by any company!
Seriously, give the AvP / Mantic feud a rest, I have no problem with either campaign and want both to succeed. Truce? Awesome aliens for all? Thanks
Second, the price disconnect between the Predators and everything else is just galling. In the picture below we seems (based on the renders) to have a Predator (30 GBP for 3) versus an Infant Warrior (15 GBP for 5). In other words, the figure on the left is a 10 GBP figure, the one on the right is a 3 GBP figure. Would you really look at that and think that one of those was more then three times as expensive as the other, really now? Uch.
.
frankly? as a professional resin-caster? Seriously? Honestly?
Yes.
See that ultra-fine threads of mesh over the predators skin...? Very difficult to cast a lot of those without flaws and detail pulling-off in moulds (either the resin detail, or taking a chunk of the mould with it)
See the aliens smooth-surfaced limbs...? Easy on moulds, far more per-mould from those than the surfaces on the predator.
Don't fall into the common mistake that the VOLUME of the resin is the main cost factor - it isnt. Its all about mould longevity, ease of casting, failure rates and the number of parts.
So, yes. I can look at those two exact models and without needing to know anything more about them could definitively say that the Predator will cost more to produce...Does it precisely explain the price differential....
OK lets think a little more on costs...... will the number of Predators in a game be likely to equal the number of (either) Aliens or Marines...?
No.
In fact its almost certain that the number of Predators required in any game will be FAR less than Marines or Aliens. Far less.
So Prodos will sell less. .. so they need to recover their expenses over fewer sales.... and we already know the moulds will produce less.. so each figure will cost them more... . so now, just looking at the first two issue that popped into my head, we've discovered that, again, the answer to your question is "yes, really!"
I do appreciate your technical expertise, but I'm afraid you've missed the forest for the trees: I do know about the (possible) increased technical difficulties and the (potential) limitations on sales... I just don't care.
It's not that I'm totally without sympathy for them, but while I could easily understand if a unity of 3 Predators was as much as a unit of 5 Aliens, they aren't. A unit of three (3!) Predators is as much as a unit of 5 Alien Infant Warriors and a unit of 5 Stalker Aliens.
Granted, from the critical comments on Alien anatomy, the audience seems clearly very, very interested in that franchise rather then the Predator franchise, but as someone that is largely indifferent to the Aliens and into Predators, this is really not much of a deal. As an aside, from a gameplay point of view, since this is (according to the front page) balanced so that a single Predator can take on an entire squad of Marines, that's... that's some heavy asymmetry in the balance.
On a less serious note, I was going to edit an image to visually represent the price disparity... and then I found this immensely funny. I can't even explain why, I just keep imaging the guy on the roof saying "Hey guys!"
Second, the price disconnect between the Predators and everything else is just galling. In the picture below we seems (based on the renders) to have a Predator (30 GBP for 3) versus an Infant Warrior (15 GBP for 5). In other words, the figure on the left is a 10 GBP figure, the one on the right is a 3 GBP figure. Would you really look at that and think that one of those was more then three times as expensive as the other, really now? Uch.
.
frankly? as a professional resin-caster? Seriously? Honestly?
Yes.
See that ultra-fine threads of mesh over the predators skin...? Very difficult to cast a lot of those without flaws and detail pulling-off in moulds (either the resin detail, or taking a chunk of the mould with it)
See the aliens smooth-surfaced limbs...? Easy on moulds, far more per-mould from those than the surfaces on the predator.
Don't fall into the common mistake that the VOLUME of the resin is the main cost factor - it isnt. Its all about mould longevity, ease of casting, failure rates and the number of parts.
So, yes. I can look at those two exact models and without needing to know anything more about them could definitively say that the Predator will cost more to produce...Does it precisely explain the price differential....
OK lets think a little more on costs...... will the number of Predators in a game be likely to equal the number of (either) Aliens or Marines...?
No.
In fact its almost certain that the number of Predators required in any game will be FAR less than Marines or Aliens. Far less.
So Prodos will sell less. .. so they need to recover their expenses over fewer sales.... and we already know the moulds will produce less.. so each figure will cost them more... . so now, just looking at the first two issue that popped into my head, we've discovered that, again, the answer to your question is "yes, really!"
I do appreciate your technical expertise, but I'm afraid you've missed the forest for the trees: I do know about the (possible) increased technical difficulties and the (potential) limitations on sales... I just don't care.
It's not that I'm totally without sympathy for them, but while I could easily understand if a unity of 3 Predators was as much as a unit of 5 Aliens, they aren't. A unit of three (3!) Predators is as much as a unit of 5 Alien Infant Warriors and a unit of 5 Stalker Aliens.
Granted, from the critical comments on Alien anatomy, the audience seems clearly very, very interested in that franchise rather then the Predator franchise, but as someone that is largely indifferent to the Aliens and into Predators, this is really not much of a deal. As an aside, from a gameplay point of view, since this is (according to the front page) balanced so that a single Predator can take on an entire squad of Marines, that's... that's some heavy asymmetry in the balance.
On a less serious note, I was going to edit an image to visually represent the price disparity... and then I found this immensely funny. I can't even explain why, I just keep imaging the guy on the roof saying "Hey guys!"
You do understand that your not caring doesn't change the economics of the situation though, right?
Second, the price disconnect between the Predators and everything else is just galling. In the picture below we seems (based on the renders) to have a Predator (30 GBP for 3) versus an Infant Warrior (15 GBP for 5). In other words, the figure on the left is a 10 GBP figure, the one on the right is a 3 GBP figure. Would you really look at that and think that one of those was more then three times as expensive as the other, really now? Uch.
.
frankly? as a professional resin-caster? Seriously? Honestly?
Yes.
See that ultra-fine threads of mesh over the predators skin...? Very difficult to cast a lot of those without flaws and detail pulling-off in moulds (either the resin detail, or taking a chunk of the mould with it)
See the aliens smooth-surfaced limbs...? Easy on moulds, far more per-mould from those than the surfaces on the predator.
Don't fall into the common mistake that the VOLUME of the resin is the main cost factor - it isnt. Its all about mould longevity, ease of casting, failure rates and the number of parts.
So, yes. I can look at those two exact models and without needing to know anything more about them could definitively say that the Predator will cost more to produce...Does it precisely explain the price differential....
OK lets think a little more on costs...... will the number of Predators in a game be likely to equal the number of (either) Aliens or Marines...?
No.
In fact its almost certain that the number of Predators required in any game will be FAR less than Marines or Aliens. Far less.
So Prodos will sell less. .. so they need to recover their expenses over fewer sales.... and we already know the moulds will produce less.. so each figure will cost them more... . so now, just looking at the first two issue that popped into my head, we've discovered that, again, the answer to your question is "yes, really!"
I do appreciate your technical expertise, but I'm afraid you've missed the forest for the trees: I do know about the (possible) increased technical difficulties and the (potential) limitations on sales... I just don't care.
It's not that I'm totally without sympathy for them, but while I could easily understand if a unity of 3 Predators was as much as a unit of 5 Aliens, they aren't. A unit of three (3!) Predators is as much as a unit of 5 Alien Infant Warriors and a unit of 5 Stalker Aliens.
Granted, from the critical comments on Alien anatomy, the audience seems clearly very, very interested in that franchise rather then the Predator franchise, but as someone that is largely indifferent to the Aliens and into Predators, this is really not much of a deal. As an aside, from a gameplay point of view, since this is (according to the front page) balanced so that a single Predator can take on an entire squad of Marines, that's... that's some heavy asymmetry in the balance.
On a less serious note, I was going to edit an image to visually represent the price disparity... and then I found this immensely funny. I can't even explain why, I just keep imaging the guy on the roof saying "Hey guys!"
You do understand that your not caring doesn't change the economics of the situation though, right?
Yeah... even Antenociti isn't claiming that technical limitations "precisely explain the price differential...."; it's clear that a) the Preds are somewhat more complicated to cast (possibly), but let's be real here, it's mostly b) that Prodos expects to sell a lot fewer of them. Which is a self-fulfilling prophecy really, since those prices do in fact suck.
Just compare the cost of the Colonial Marine Sergeant at 8GBP to a Predator at 10GBP; is it that the Sergeant is such a detailed model compared to the other marines that he more then twice as much as a Marine? 'Course not.
The most important part of the "economics" is what people are willing to pay (let's be honest, a huge amount of the value in this campaign is the license); 10GBP each is premium pricing, more so then I (for one) am willing to pay.
But of course, part and parcel of all this is that there are (quite obviously) a lot of fans of this combined franchise that are a good deal more... enthusiastic then I am. If Prodos wants to float the campaign on them, the fact that it doesn't blow my hair back isn't all that important.
Also, great to see Prodos being clear about the material they are using! Future KS campaigns, take note
Prodos wrote:@Jake Young: We only say it is Polyurethane Plastic so that we don't mislead you guys. We are NOT using what is referred to in this industry as 'restic' as we believe it is a secondary material to Polyurethane. What is normally referred to as 'Plastic' in the infantry is Styrene Plastic and 'Resins' can be a huge variety of plastics, styrene based, urethane based and Epoxy are all very common.
Polyurethane is great because it captures detail, is easy to clean up and assemble, can be heated for reposing, be cut for conversions, mouldlines are easily removed with a scalpel or file, it is non-toxic and simply great to assemble, paint and play games with! Forgot to say! It is very sturdy, and snaps cleanly if it does snap (but it has to undergo quite a lot of stress for that to happen!).
I think it would be a great idea for us to show you guys by making a video of us working with some castings.
Is that yet another dig at mantic gee I am starting to think someone at prodos got sacked by mantic
Also restic is a polyurethane plastic and originally mantic called it as such but to many people got a stick up there ass about it being called a plastic when it was not the injection moulded stuff.
Also you think before you start randomly calling out another manufacturer in you 2nd ks you would have at least delivered the 1st tiny ks you had done.
Anyway going to come back in a week and see if theres any value to the pledges below £225.
Lol, complex much? I specifically said "future campaigns" to avoid anyone getting that idea... and yet, you got it, anyway!
It was an issue with multiple companies and has been discussed frequently on Dakka. Clarity on material is very much appreciated, by any company!
Seriously, give the AvP / Mantic feud a rest, I have no problem with either campaign and want both to succeed. Truce? Awesome aliens for all? Thanks
Lol my bad i was not implying anything against yourself just that as per that comment and others Prodos seem to have an issue, should have deleted your comments out oh and ok Truce
I do appreciate your technical expertise, but I'm afraid you've missed the forest for the trees: I do know about the (possible) increased technical difficulties and the (potential) limitations on sales... I just don't care.
It's not that I'm totally without sympathy for them, but while I could easily understand if a unity of 3 Predators was as much as a unit of 5 Aliens, they aren't. A unit of three (3!) Predators is as much as a unit of 5 Alien Infant Warriors and a unit of 5 Stalker Aliens.
Granted, from the critical comments on Alien anatomy, the audience seems clearly very, very interested in that franchise rather then the Predator franchise, but as someone that is largely indifferent to the Aliens and into Predators, this is really not much of a deal. As an aside, from a gameplay point of view, since this is (according to the front page) balanced so that a single Predator can take on an entire squad of Marines, that's... that's some heavy asymmetry in the balance.
On a less serious note, I was going to edit an image to visually represent the price disparity... and then I found this immensely funny. I can't even explain why, I just keep imaging the guy on the roof saying "Hey guys!"
You do understand that your not caring doesn't change the economics of the situation though, right?
But the situation laid out by Antenociti doesn't necessarily cover the economics that well. This KS will be covering a lot, if not all (it should be all), of their costs in producing both this limited edition and the standard edition. From what I've heard other producers say, the board, books, and cards are likely to be the single biggest expense.
We are taking on all the risk as backers. Shouldn't we get something for that? A discount that matches or gets near to what I can get from an online shop (without having to spend extra to get it) is not too much to ask in exchange for that risk, in my opinion.
I don't know. I do know that in my opinion, folks asking for better value to cover all the risks is not out of line. I feel that the KS price for the Predators could (maybe should) be closer to that of the Aliens or Colonial Marine squad. Once it hits retail, the situation that Antenociti outlined becomes entirely relevant.
At least it is a technical explanation for why the Preds should cost more, from someone who works within the business.
Personally, I don't think the price is that bad. £10 for a larger 'character' esque miniature isn't bad, when compared to a lot of the stuff on the rest of the market. I want to say it in hushed tones (and not give anyone any ideas!) but I have no doubt at all that they could have fleeced the market a lot more for it, if they had been so inclined.
Alpharius wrote: That's doubtful, I think, as these prices and the deals as currently constituted are pushing limits as is...
I think they'll get better though!
Definitely agree that they're pushing it as is ; p If they get better, as they seem to be doing now, I'll happily jump in if it gets good enough for a very value oriented gamer ; p
The KS ones being multi-part are great, but them being resin is less ideal. The retail ones being plastic is great, but them being single-piece is less ideal. Damn this imperfect world!!
Pacific wrote: At least it is a technical explanation for why the Preds should cost more, from someone who works within the business.
Personally, I don't think the price is that bad. £10 for a larger 'character' esque miniature isn't bad, when compared to a lot of the stuff on the rest of the market. I want to say it in hushed tones (and not give anyone any ideas!) but I have no doubt at all that they could have fleeced the market a lot more for it, if they had been so inclined.
Ehh... one of the reasons I'm rather pessimistic is that when a company gets a bit license like this, the inclination seems to be to shoot the moon.
But with that said, it's important to remember that this is a unique time: now, and really only now, are we (the consumers) able to give any meaningful input to the companies on pricing, product, etc.
If one thinks the Predators are too expensive (as I do), now is the time to say it, 'cause it is not going to be open to change very, very soon.
If you want female Marines (in addition to the 1 supposedly in already), now is the time to pipe up.
Once this is over, the attention of the company turns away. Once this is over, the voice of the consumers is diluted.
Now is the time to be telling the campaign what you want and what you don't, because once it's closed, it's closed.
Honestly.. think there is a lot of quibbling over minutiae at the moment! This is fething Aliens and Predator for Christ's sake! I'm still giggling like a little schoolgirl at the prospect of there finally being some decent miniatures for one of the coolest sci-fi franchises of all time.
At the moment this thread almost sounds like people hopping into bed with Salma Hayek and then complaining that she has a pimple on her ass
Pacific wrote: Honestly.. think there is a lot of quibbling over minutiae at the moment! This is fething Aliens and Predator for Christ's sake! I'm still giggling like a little schoolgirl at the prospect of there finally being some decent miniatures for one of the coolest sci-fi franchises of all time.
At the moment this thread almost sounds like people hopping into bed with Salma Hayek and then complaining that she has a pimple on her ass
The straw man argument is the best argument, because the straw man argument just never ends.
I agree that the Predators are pricey, but some of the money I'm putting towards this is from Trollbloods I just sold... and a unit of 3 runeshapers used to be about the same price as 3 predators is here. It got lowered a smidge, but it's still like $14 apiece.
Infinity also has a rather high per-model cost. I consider it par for the course on a low model count game... doesn't make me happy about it, of course.
And I agree that the discrepancy between the aliens price and the predators is a bit of a bummer... particularly when I'm going in for predators mostly! (or rather, PreAliens ). I guess mine will be more unique that way
Man, this is going along at a pretty good clip so far. Really wish I had $120-200 to throw in on this. The minis look great and they've already started to give a pretty good return on what you put in (and it will likely continue getting better). It's only ~£60k off of Warzone's total already which is probably a pleasant surprise for Prodos (wonder if they have a stretch planned for when they break it). Should do well for a GBP Kickstarter campaign and I am kicking myself for not having the prescience to save up money for this.
Oh well, maybe I'll get a random windfall in the next week or two and be able to throw down $200 on it.
Some comparisons: - Raging Heroes are at the "boutique" end of the scale, and their troops were $3 each. - I paid $2.30 per new space marine (via the strike force bundle), an excellent new kit from GW. - We pay less than $1 per mini for a lot of Mantics stuff, generally at most ~$2 at retail. - The proven really high quality with lots of extra bits of Vics resin minis is $5 per mini which does lend some credence to the marines and aliens being $5... if we're sure what you get in the kits is worth it, but again as a KS you expect a "good" price to offset the risk. Vic also includes free worldwide shipping.
I go down the pub for a couple of hours and it all goes mad
Im hoping this ks turns out to be worth it value to money wise. I love the sculpts but its seeming a bit rich at the mo for my wallet. Plus im still waiting for my warzone pledge. Im hoping it gets better in the next few days else ill regret pulling my pledge on other ks.
Yonan wrote: Some comparisons:
- Raging Heroes are at the "boutique" end of the scale, and their troops were $3 each.
- I paid $2.30 per new space marine (via the strike force bundle), an excellent new kit from GW.
- We pay less than $1 per mini for a lot of Mantics stuff, generally at most ~$2 at retail.
- The proven really high quality with lots of extra bits of Vics resin minis is $5 per mini which does lend some credence to the marines and aliens being $5... if we're sure what you get in the kits is worth it, but again as a KS you expect a "good" price to offset the risk. Vic also includes free worldwide shipping.
Mierce had £55 per 10 human infantry figures, or £5.50 per figure. Comparing non-resin to resin kickstarters isn't really a fair comparison.
Yonan wrote: Some comparisons:
- Raging Heroes are at the "boutique" end of the scale, and their troops were $3 each.
- I paid $2.30 per new space marine (via the strike force bundle), an excellent new kit from GW.
- We pay less than $1 per mini for a lot of Mantics stuff, generally at most ~$2 at retail.
- The proven really high quality with lots of extra bits of Vics resin minis is $5 per mini which does lend some credence to the marines and aliens being $5... if we're sure what you get in the kits is worth it, but again as a KS you expect a "good" price to offset the risk. Vic also includes free worldwide shipping.
Mierce had £55 per 10 human infantry figures, or £5.50 per figure. Comparing non-resin to resin kickstarters isn't really a fair comparison.
decker_cky wrote: Mierce had £55 per 10 human infantry figures, or £5.50 per figure. Comparing non-resin to resin kickstarters isn't really a fair comparison.
Keep in mind that they're different materials sure - but the decision is where do my limited hobby dollars go, so ultimately you compare it to what else you can get, same material or otherwise.
Been waiting for the £100k breakthrough, it's only £500 away, but it's too damn late now and I need sleep - no doubt it will have smashed the goal by the time I awaken, looking forward to the updates from Prodos so we can see what is what and hopefully the next stretch goal...
Yonan wrote: Some comparisons:
- Raging Heroes are at the "boutique" end of the scale, and their troops were $3 each.
- I paid $2.30 per new space marine (via the strike force bundle), an excellent new kit from GW.
- We pay less than $1 per mini for a lot of Mantics stuff, generally at most ~$2 at retail.
- The proven really high quality with lots of extra bits of Vics resin minis is $5 per mini which does lend some credence to the marines and aliens being $5... if we're sure what you get in the kits is worth it, but again as a KS you expect a "good" price to offset the risk. Vic also includes free worldwide shipping.
Mierce had £55 per 10 human infantry figures, or £5.50 per figure. Comparing non-resin to resin kickstarters isn't really a fair comparison.
During the Kingdom Death:Monster campaign individual pin-ups were offered for $15 in "plastic" (which ultimately became injection molded plastic, so yay Poots!), or $25 in resin. Of course, it's also important to note that KD is not 28mm scale, but 32mm, so considerably larger. Multipart plastic kits for making characters were sold at 4 for $25, or 20 for $50.
3 Predators at ~$40 are as expensive as any given expansion, and more then most, for KD:M (excepting the Lantern Festival, which at $45 contained two giant monsters, three 32mm characters and cards, cards, cards...).
Pacific wrote: Honestly.. think there is a lot of quibbling over minutiae at the moment! This is fething Aliens and Predator for Christ's sake! I'm still giggling like a little schoolgirl at the prospect of there finally being some decent miniatures for one of the coolest sci-fi franchises of all time.
At the moment this thread almost sounds like people hopping into bed with Salma Hayek and then complaining that she has a pimple on her ass
See, this is the power of a licensed property. To Pacific, this is "one of the coolest sci-fi franchises of all time".
So I think I missed this part before.. so the kickstarter rewards for the base game is going to be the boxed game, but with only resin minis... and then late next year there will be a plastic minis version with different, 1-piece figures? Do backers get just the resin minis and not the "retail" versions at all? or do we get both?
* For anyone not familiar with the comics, Machiko is a human who ends up rescuing and then fighting alongside a veteran Predator, who ends up giving her an honourary 'hunters mark' where she ultimately ends up fighting alongside a pack of other Predators..
There is loads of really cool artwork (even a collectable miniature) of her:
That's no miniature. It's a 12" Doll/1:6 scale model!
Sounds to me like there's no reason to wait for retail then, since you'll get inferior models. Kinda sad since I wanted to support my local store and buy it from them when it gets released, maybe now I won't bother at all.
Buzzsaw wrote: During the Kingdom Death:Monster campaign individual pin-ups were offered for $15 in "plastic" (which ultimately became injection molded plastic, so yay Poots!), or $25 in resin. Of course, it's also important to note that KD is not 28mm scale, but 32mm, so considerably larger.
I think the character models in resin from Kingdom Death are a good comparison, and as you say, they were $25 in resin. Predators aren't units, they're characters... I wish they were cheaper, and I hope we get multiple poses, but they're also more like 32mm models because they're tall. So, $16 apiece isn't absurd in that regard... just means you unfortunately can't really make units of them, while you can with the Aliens.
My dilemma is I want a unit of 6 PredAliens, which hurts my wallet quite a bit
Those free face huggers seem to be a last minute damage control addition.
the KS has been running for less than a day.
They actually appear to be a case of adding (back) in things to the core box which were cynically removed to use as stretch goals. I mean, face huggers in an "Aliens" game...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Buzzsaw wrote: So, tumbled out of bed, checked my emails, and it seems time to get my complain on...
Second, the price disconnect between the Predators and everything else is just galling. In the picture below we seems (based on the renders) to have a Predator (30 GBP for 3) versus an Infant Warrior (15 GBP for 5). In other words, the figure on the left is a 10 GBP figure, the one on the right is a 3 GBP figure. Would you really look at that and think that one of those was more then three times as expensive as the other, really now? Uch.
By the way, yes, I recognize the Colonial Marines Sergeant is crazy expensive, but since I don't care about him someone else can grouse about it.
They've clearly made the choice to use the GW-style "Hero-model" and "Troops-model" pricing model, rather than going by the size of the figures.
That's a nice paint job on the xenomorph though, if nothing else. Much better than the "paint it black and gloss varnish" that I'm sure countless people will be doing when they get theirs.
The commonly agreed upon "good movies" are Alien (Singular), Aliens (Plural sequel), and Predator. They're all from the late 70's to mid 80's so the effects will be a bit dated but they're great movies. If you expand beyond those 6 hours, you'll run into the movies that are OK overall but just don't live up to the originals beyond a few choice cool scenes (like swimming aliens and predator first aid). The only other thing I'd suggest is to watch the last 10 minutes of Predator 2 to see the inspiration for AVP as you see an alien skull on a Predator's trophy rack in his space ship. That scene set the stage for all this.
I'd add Predators (the recent Rodriguez film) to the "should see" after the 3 you mention, and then Alien 3 as also distantly recommended.
Airbrush will do an awesome job I think in not much time. Prime black, good coverage grey, light coverage light grey/white and finish with a thinned dark grey over everything to blend it, then maybe a wash.
SeanDrake wrote: Oh lol reading the KS comments and I see there following the CMON school of customer service. Snide and sarcastic comments to backers with some backhanded insults to mantic mixed in as well.
Quote some here. I'm curious, but not interested enough to trawl through the pages of KS comments.
Buzzsaw wrote: During the Kingdom Death:Monster campaign individual pin-ups were offered for $15 in "plastic" (which ultimately became injection molded plastic, so yay Poots!), or $25 in resin. Of course, it's also important to note that KD is not 28mm scale, but 32mm, so considerably larger.
I think the character models in resin from Kingdom Death are a good comparison, and as you say, they were $25 in resin. Predators aren't units, they're characters... I wish they were cheaper, and I hope we get multiple poses, but they're also more like 32mm models because they're tall. So, $16 apiece isn't absurd in that regard... just means you unfortunately can't really make units of them, while you can with the Aliens.
My dilemma is I want a unit of 6 PredAliens, which hurts my wallet quite a bit
Ehh, I would say that is a little too favorable to Prodos; the Predators are are multipart units rather then characters, which means they are really more comparable to the KD:M armor sprues, which are also 32mm. And were 4 for $25 or 20 for $50.
And let's just say they are equivalent (at least) in terms of details... (the Lantern Armor kit below are not characters, just two possible assembly of those sprues.)
Just caught up on the overnight posts on this. I agree with buzzsaw in that it's merely okay at this stage. While I've loved the look of the Aliens since I was a kid - and even the art design for the lesser films (I own this, this and this, amongst a lot of other things) but the KS will need to do a lot better in the next few weeks - especially since it really doesn't scale up well price-wise with things like those I linked.
The preds are far too expensive, as is the sergeant, while getting the same "freebies" at $500 as others do at $150 doesn't encourage staying in at the high level, either. While I'm sure the KS will improve over the next 3 weeks, Buzz makes a good point in that the time to make points is now, while the creators are somewhat listening - and not later when it's done and dusted..
I hope at some point there is a breakdown of what comes in the set. They say there is a female marine included does that mean there are bits to create one? Head variants? I have to remind myself it's only day one and answers will hopefully come.
It's not earth shattering yet, but it would be missed dosh if left unattended for too long. Then again, it's a quarter past eight in the morning in the UK right now, so quite a few people are still asleep.
You have to take account of the time difference too.
Not only is it the weekend, but as I type it's only just past nine in the morning.
I'm not expecting an update quite yet.
I'm hoping for good sentry guns, plus a character upgrade (Hicks, Hudson, Drake, Vasquez, Gorman, etc)
I'd love the ability to frag Gorman to cause a diversion An APC would be nice in the future, but wouldn't fit in the game, it being a Space Hulk style corridor layout.
Maybe if they do a miniature game.
I'm in this for the Colonial Marines, the Aliens and the Predators are just a bonus.
They actually appear to be a case of adding (back) in things to the core box which were cynically removed to use as stretch goals. I mean, face huggers in an "Aliens" game...
That may be but that still isn't a 'last minute' action given that the KS had only just started.
An APC would be nice in the future, but wouldn't fit in the game, it being a Space Hulk style corridor layout.
Maybe if they do a miniature game..
I believe that Prodos have stated that this game will scale up to a full sized wargame. In which case I can see things like Loaders, Alien Queens, etc making it into this KS. Whether they will try to fund APCs or the like is less certain. That might be for another KS.
They actually appear to be a case of adding (back) in things to the core box which were cynically removed to use as stretch goals. I mean, face huggers in an "Aliens" game...
That may be but that still isn't a 'last minute' action given that the KS had only just started.
I never said anything about "last minute". I just said that face huggers are such an integral/iconic part of the whole Aliens IP that them not being in the game and instead "added as a stretch goal" rubs me very much as something that would have been in the core of any retail product being a rather cynical addition, as it feels like something artificially removed from a game box in order to be added (back) in as a stretch goal. The marine sergeant has that kind of feel too, to be honest, as does the smart gun and flamer marines we haven't heard anything about yet.
Guys - I emailed and asked about the possibility of Machiko being an additional character at some point (was kind of disappointed that the female predator revealed wasn't her)
You may have noticed the "splat" and cylinder shaped place holders on the contents picture, I assume these are meant to have represented huggers and eggs. So with huggers In I can only assume we will see the eggs too. Plus the number of stalkers and infants seem to be different from the listed quantities too.
Well it looks like they are using the AVPR style for the Alien Warriors, and basically lied when they said they were gonna use the design from Aliens.. Real shame.
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote: You may have noticed the "splat" and cylinder shaped place holders on the contents picture, I assume these are meant to have represented huggers and eggs. So with huggers In I can only assume we will see the eggs too. Plus the number of stalkers and infants seem to be different from the listed quantities too.
Fairly sure those are counters, stacked and unstacked.
Who knows? Best ask Prodos, who might give us a promising veiled answer.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, despite what I earlier thought, we are slowly crawling towards the 110k, will be interesting to see what kind of boosts this project will receive once one or two of the bigger geekdom news sites run an article or even a notice on this one.
Pacific wrote: Have we actually seen a full render of the Alien warriors yet?
Not yet, I asked in the comments and they're not ready to show a render yet (hopefully will be soon).
Also, weren't the infants/stalkers traditionally sculpted (leaked a long time ago?) while all these later sculpts are digital? If so, interesting... I think the digital PredAlien sculpt looks way better than the alien imfants/stalkers.
I think I was mistaken about the first aliens sculpts we've seen being traditionally sculpted, since they showed these renders earlier and they look decidedly digital...
Spoiler:
Also you purists have won me over on the Aliens look . I really prefer the "non-smooth heads". Right now, I've got a pledge in that is enough for "Real Aliens Ain't From Mars", but have just selected the lowest pledge level thinking I'd only go for add-ons. I'm not all that interested in the models in the base box game, but love the PredAlien and expect to feel the same way about the Hound.
I may be interested in some of the upcoming models, too, such as the Alien Warriors, Sentry Gun, or Royal Guard.
Edit: Well, having thought it over this pounds symbol has been getting me to up my pledge too much . I'm going to set my max at $200 / 125 pounds, and that's a hard stop! Which means add-ons only for me
I do appreciate your technical expertise, but I'm afraid you've missed the forest for the trees: I do know about the (possible) increased technical difficulties and the (potential) limitations on sales... I just don't care.
It's not that I'm totally without sympathy for them, but while I could easily understand if a unity of 3 Predators was as much as a unit of 5 Aliens, they aren't. A unit of three (3!) Predators is as much as a unit of 5 Alien Infant Warriors and a unit of 5 Stalker Aliens.
Granted, from the critical comments on Alien anatomy, the audience seems clearly very, very interested in that franchise rather then the Predator franchise, but as someone that is largely indifferent to the Aliens and into Predators, this is really not much of a deal. As an aside, from a gameplay point of view, since this is (according to the front page) balanced so that a single Predator can take on an entire squad of Marines, that's... that's some heavy asymmetry in the balance.
On a less serious note, I was going to edit an image to visually represent the price disparity... and then I found this immensely funny. I can't even explain why, I just keep imaging the guy on the roof saying "Hey guys!"
You do understand that your not caring doesn't change the economics of the situation though, right?
But the situation laid out by Antenociti doesn't necessarily cover the economics that well. This KS will be covering a lot, if not all (it should be all), of their costs in producing both this limited edition and the standard edition. From what I've heard other producers say, the board, books, and cards are likely to be the single biggest expense.
We are taking on all the risk as backers. Shouldn't we get something for that? A discount that matches or gets near to what I can get from an online shop (without having to spend extra to get it) is not too much to ask in exchange for that risk, in my opinion.
I don't know. I do know that in my opinion, folks asking for better value to cover all the risks is not out of line. I feel that the KS price for the Predators could (maybe should) be closer to that of the Aliens or Colonial Marine squad. Once it hits retail, the situation that Antenociti outlined becomes entirely relevant.
~Eric
I dont think people understand the difficulties of running a kickstarter.. I know I didnt until we started doing the maths.... its ... complex.
And the moment you start the KS... everything changes.
Also please dont take my comments as a commentary on the ACTUAL prices - i've no idea of their actual costs or their internal calculations: I just know that that Predator will cost more to produce than that Alien.
Companies have the choice to ameliorate their costs across different figures (simply put: charge more for the Aliens, less for the Predator, one figures 'subsidises the other').. but when one sits down and tries to work out the maths for that... against a totally unknown number of sales.. it very quickly becomes immensely difficult.
The difficulty, and the possible variation, getting less and less the closer you get to the end of the KS Project i.e. you have more (relatively) firm numbers to juggle in your spreadsheet...and you see that in the "Better" offers you get closer to the end.
I think KS backers tend now to regard themselves as customers though..and the project as a pre-order.... and they see 120 plastic figures for $100 and want 120 resin figures for the same, with no real appreciation of the (vast) difference...although I am not saying they NEED to know, perhaps that is part of the job of the Kickstarter itself - to inform potential backers...but then KS is now perhaps just a big pre-order system with often false expectations.
The "risk" as backers though is usually infinitesimal compared tot he risk of the project owner.... and "shouldnt we get something for that" is exactly what Kickstarter is about: if you didnt take that risk you wont see the product "at all".
Again though, that has been subsumed into the whole "KS is just a fancy pre-order and marketing system" now.
But, back to you central point: If you accept the (factual) production cost differences, then make your request to Prodos taking that into account: as a potential backer there''s nothing stopping you from asking for a Predator-Only package.... which,a and just trust me on this, is probably easier to do than adjusting the cost of the Predators across the entire project (as that may royally screw up the spreadsheets).
It may be worth remembering that this is AvP though, not just "P" and that there IS life after a kickstarter... a product that needs still to be sold and money to be made... so not every aspiration of a backer is necessarily a Good Thing™.
If it were me, and I only wanted Pradators though, I would chase that as specific add-on pack... because something like that is generally easier to cost "On the fly".
Give it a shot, see what they say.
edit: and, yes, i agree, there's no harm in asking for cheaper prices.... but the chances of that increase the closer you get to the end of the KS Project.... often *just* because the company behind it now has a far better picture of exactly WHERE costs will be. Its hard to explain, but imagine 10 products, all with different costs and, at the start of a KS Project, you simply "do not know" which will be the most popular... making it very hard to work out production times or factor in production discounts..by the time you get to 48 hours to go you've gotten a lot, lot more data, you can judge things like volumes of silicone and resin, and seek out discount up your own supply chain, factor those back in and... voila... end-day specials that can be done "for free".
(Of course, an issue there is that it might make a mockery of "early bird" deals, buts thats another issue altogether)
I think KS backers tend now to regard themselves as customers though..and the project as a pre-order.... and they see 120 plastic figures for $100 and want 120 resin figures for the same, with no real appreciation of the (vast) difference...although I am not saying they NEED to know, perhaps that is part of the job of the Kickstarter itself - to inform potential backers...but then KS is now perhaps just a big pre-order system with often false expectations.
It depends on the KS whether we regard ourselves as pre orders or investors. With Dreamforge and Mantic for example, nothing exists beforehand so we invest in the project and that money goes to make the expensive tooling required for the project. This project seems much closer to a pre order since they're aiming at shipping very soon and have renders for all or most of the stuff already, along with actual production model casts for at least some of them.
We expect less value for pre orders, but by the same token since we get less value, we compare what we would get by backing to what we would get at release which usually includes a discount from online discounters. If the KS doesn't seem like good value, there's every chance we can get the same stuff for cheaper at retail, and completely negate whatever risk is in the KS - not so much not getting the product, but the product being poorly cast and so on, since we'll be able to see reviews of the stuff before we buy at retail.
Also I don't think anyone in this thread is saying we want the models at plastic prices. Using plastic prices as a comparison point help determine value, along with other resin and restic prices. Earlier I compared AvP minis to the ridiculously awesome Vic Minis resin offerings, which come out to the same price ($5 per mini) as AvP marines and aliens. However with Vic we know we get a high quality product and a bunch of extras, along with free international shipping and no risk. We don't know if we get extras in each kit yet, we still pay shipping and there is still a lot of risk with this being a kickstarter.
I think KS backers tend now to regard themselves as customers though..and the project as a pre-order.... and they see 120 plastic figures for $100 and want 120 resin figures for the same, with no real appreciation of the (vast) difference...although I am not saying they NEED to know, perhaps that is part of the job of the Kickstarter itself - to inform potential backers...but then KS is now perhaps just a big pre-order system with often false expectations.
It depends on the KS whether we regard ourselves as pre orders or investors. With Dreamforge and Mantic for example, nothing exists beforehand so we invest in the project and that money goes to make the expensive tooling required for the project. This project seems much closer to a pre order since they're aiming at shipping very soon and have renders for all or most of the stuff already, along with actual production model casts for at least some of them.
We expect less value for pre orders, but by the same token since we get less value, we compare what we would get by backing to what we would get at release which usually includes a discount from online discounters. If the KS doesn't seem like good value, there's every chance we can get the same stuff for cheaper at retail, and completely negate whatever risk is in the KS - not so much not getting the product, but the product being poorly cast and so on, since we'll be able to see reviews of the stuff before we buy at retail.
Also I don't think anyone in this thread is saying we want the models at plastic prices. Using plastic prices as a comparison point help determine value, along with other resin and restic prices. Earlier I compared AvP minis to the ridiculously awesome Vic Minis resin offerings, which come out to the same price ($5 per mini) as AvP marines and aliens. However with Vic we know we get a high quality product and a bunch of extras, along with free international shipping and no risk. We don't know if we get extras in each kit yet, we still pay shipping and there is still a lot of risk with this being a kickstarter.
A question for you - even though this is an extant company with existing products in the marketplace, and the KS Project goal already achieved, you still regard this as a risk? (i'm very interested in this from a purely personal POV ¬_¬ )
edit 2: and thx for the whole reply btw - it was very interesting and useful (seriously)
- - -
Creator Prodos Games Ltd about 3 hours ago
The nature of the 'later release' will depend on response to this. The models that are in the box (3 Preds, Alien stalkers 5 Colonials etc) will change to plastic, hence so likely will these models when sold as an addon. Hence the 3 Preds in question will be likely available in late 2014 in plastic (as a 3 pack)....(or at least a redesign of them (redisign for plastic)
- - - -
Edit: The box set is only available in plastic after this KS. Hence any add ons that have models in the box set the same. The rest of the models unlocked here will likely be available in resin in the future.
NOTE: The stuff I say below does not imply that I think backing AvP is any more risky than any other KS project (in fact because Prodos have run a successful KS I consider them a BETTER risk than many projects)
that said
Always consider KS a risk, even when run by an established company
simply because nobody knows what the future holds,
and the KS platform and the status of the backers of a project has not been tested (enough) in law for you to be certain what your outcome would be in trying to recover money/goods if things go wrong
the fact that money changes hands through the intermediaries of KS and Amazon Payments (each with their own T&C that you have to sign up to, potentially meaning you might be obliged to seek any legal redress in a foreign country) help complicate things even more compared to a simple CC purchase from company X
My KS tips,
don't spend money you can't afford to loose (so no dipping into little timmy's coledge fund),
don't spend all your years gaming budget on KS projects (the waiting will hurt)
expect delays no matter how prepared the company running the KS was (eg Prodos could not have predicted their chosen printer would be flooded out badly delaying the printing of the Warzone rulebook)
don't feel you HAVE to get everything just because it looks cheap via KS, you might not actually use/want some of it and the way economies of scale work you may find out the KS prices are no better than standard internet seller discounts so only pick up stuff you REALLY want
Yonan wrote:It depends on the KS whether we regard ourselves as pre orders or investors. With Dreamforge and Mantic for example, nothing exists beforehand so we invest in the project and that money goes to make the expensive tooling required for the project. This project seems much closer to a pre order since they're aiming at shipping very soon and have renders for all or most of the stuff already, along with actual production model casts for at least some of them.
I don't see a significant difference between the "preorder" nature of this offering or Mantic ones like Deadzone. They're both products that regardless of funding will be made and available (same contents, different materials) through traditional retail outlets. To me, that's a preorder and it's purpose is to cut out the "middle man" and increase the manufacturer's cut of the MSRP on the important initial rush purchases from roughly 50% to 90%. KS may increase the depth and breadth of the offerings in that initial rush though but that doesn't change what I feel it is. Since I view it as an attempt mainly to increase profits per unit rather than bring something new to market (since it's coming anyways), I expect some of that distributor/store discount to be passed along to the consumer. I have different expectations though of smaller kickstarters/companies that have no retail presence. YMMV.
Antenociti wrote:A question for you - even though this is an extant company with existing products in the marketplace, and the KS Project goal already achieved, you still regard this as a risk? (i'm very interested in this from a purely personal POV ¬_¬ )
-----
It's definitely still risky as is any preorder done 6 months in advance via an international cash transaction with little to no recourse available to the payer. Making it a toy soldier purchase doesn't change any of that as there are plenty of things both in Prodos' control and completely out of their control that could happen. IIRC the Warzone kickstarter was both delayed in its initial delivery dates and they had a change in materials from what was promised during the campaign and the same thing or worse could easily happen here as well. Now with warzone the changes/delays weren't very significant in my opinion and most importantly they communicated well with the pledgers during the process so hopefully the same would happen here in that type of case.The person or persons who do their casting could get sick/quit/start their own company and delay the project. Fox could start making unreasonable demands on approval post kickstarter. A natural disaster could occur in the EU or more specifically in the Prodos building (like a fire) and wipe out most of their funding. An economic collapse could wildly swing the currency conversion rate and make the game unprofitable to manufacture or ship. Paying upfront months to years in advance via kickstarter puts a large share of the risk on the consumer who previously had no risk.
don't spend money you can't afford to loose (so no dipping into little timmy's coledge fund),
don't spend all your years gaming budget on KS projects (the waiting will hurt)
expect delays no matter how prepared the company running the KS was (eg Prodos could not have predicted their chosen printer would be flooded out badly delaying the printing of the Warzone rulebook)
don't feel you HAVE to get everything just because it looks cheap via KS, you might not actually use/want some of it and the way economies of scale work you may find out the KS prices are no better than standard internet seller discounts so only pick up stuff you REALLY want
and above all have fun
These are some Really good tips! Last year, I really did spend my gaming budget on KS, and yes it did really hurt
Not feeling you have to get everything is also important as Orlando says, just get what you really like
Antenociti wrote: A question for you - even though this is an extant company with existing products in the marketplace, and the KS Project goal already achieved, you still regard this as a risk? (i'm very interested in this from a purely personal POV ¬_¬ )
edit 2: and thx for the whole reply btw - it was very interesting and useful (seriously)
/bow, I do love a good discussion and your posts have been highly informative and well written so thought I'd contribute, even if we ultimately disagree ; )
The risk is in the quality of the items produced, and I'll use Mantic as an example. Are you aware of the problems they have had with the Kings of War Basilean Man at Arms kits? And their decision to send out some of Dreadball wave 3 as metal, without asking their backers if this was acceptable, when everything was supposed to be in restic? That's the sort of "risk" I'm talking about - but there are many more examples that I'm less familiar with (I've become a bit of a Mantic fan despite these troubles). We don't know what the quality of the casts will be with a Kickstarter. Prior performance from the company is a good indicator, but far from foolproof. By backing a kickstarter, we risk dodgy things like that, whereas if we wait for retail we know exactly what we're getting into.
I'm aware the retail release will be plastic, and for me it's a mixed blessing. I prefer plastic, and I prefer multi part. The kickstarter is resin multi part, the retail is plastic single pose, so you can see my dilemma ; p
p.s. Looking forward to your products arriving in my deadzone package, they looked great ; ) Some in Mars Attacks too, but they're a lot further off.
warboss wrote: I don't see a significant difference between the "preorder" nature of this offering or Mantic ones like Deadzone. They're both products that regardless of funding will be made and available (same contents, different materials) through traditional retail outlets.
They're not though, or not completely at least. We've seen actual production models (I think) for AvP - that means they're completely done. For Deadzone, we saw a lot of concepts, some 3d renders, and I'm not sure if we saw any completed models. We certainly didn't see any production models, as we only just this week saw them. The difference between pre order and investor is the stage at which you participate. We participated far earlier in the Deadzone development process than it looks like we are in the AvP one. I could be mistaken about the relative stages though.
To me, that's a preorder and it's purpose is to cut out the "middle man" and increase the manufacturer's cut of the MSRP
I'm all for this, I *much* rather give straight to the developer/manufacturer where possible, especially where middle men add no value to the transaction. But because they only get what, 60% of the retail price compared to ~90% of the KS price, there's definitely a lot more room for them to share the margin with us, their investors.
I'm all for this, I *much* rather give straight to the developer/manufacturer where possible, especially where middle men add no value to the transaction. But because they only get what, 60% of the retail price compared to ~90% of the KS price, there's definitely a lot more room for them to share the margin with us, their investors.
Generally only 40% of the SRP goes to the manufacturer. Distro wants a 60% discount on the SRP so they can sell it for 45-50% off to stores.
Antenociti wrote: A question for you - even though this is an extant company with existing products in the marketplace, and the KS Project goal already achieved, you still regard this as a risk? (i'm very interested in this from a purely personal POV ¬_¬ )
edit 2: and thx for the whole reply btw - it was very interesting and useful (seriously)
/bow, I do love a good discussion and your posts have been highly informative and well written so thought I'd contribute, even if we ultimately disagree ; )
The risk is in the quality of the items produced, and I'll use Mantic as an example. Are you aware of the problems they have had with the Kings of War Basilean Man at Arms kits? And their decision to send out some of Dreadball wave 3 as metal, without asking their backers if this was acceptable, when everything was supposed to be in restic? That's the sort of "risk" I'm talking about - but there are many more examples that I'm less familiar with (I've become a bit of a Mantic fan despite these troubles). We don't know what the quality of the casts will be with a Kickstarter. Prior performance from the company is a good indicator, but far from foolproof. By backing a kickstarter, we risk dodgy things like that, whereas if we wait for retail we know exactly what we're getting into.
I'm aware the retail release will be plastic, and for me it's a mixed blessing. I prefer plastic, and I prefer multi part. The kickstarter is resin multi part, the retail is plastic single pose, so you can see my dilemma ; p
p.s. Looking forward to your products arriving in my deadzone package, they looked great ; ) Some in Mars Attacks too, but they're a lot further off.
.
I wasn't aware, no; all the KS Projects i've backed have been for no rewards (until this AvP one).
So for you the issue is less one of a worry about whether you will receive anything, it is whether or not the quality, even the material, that you ultimately end up with, matches that displayed during the KS.
So with AvP we've seen some lovely looking resin pre-production pieces, but will the production pieces match that quality? .... and if we're paying for hand-cast resin we ONLY want hand-cast resin AND at the quality shown....
because... if we DONT get that, there really isnt any method for getting ones money back... the best we could do is.. well, "offer feedback" on their next KS project.
OK, yup, I get that.
I'd considered "yeah it was late" but not a "its a different material"... I can see how that would happen though (from the manufacturers end). cheers for that.
(fwiw any problems with any of our stuff just come straight to us for replacements or missing parts etc.... kinda expecting that wont be a problem... but there were 131,000 items cast for deadzone by us... bound to be a few "uglies" that snuck through somewhere.)
Souleater wrote: Would it be correct to assume that Prodos also have to pay some kind of licence fee to Fox for using their stuff?
Generally yes, very few people grant a license for free. Usually its percentage based, with the possibility of a set amount each year that must be paid regardless of anything else. I doubt we'll ever hear an official word on what their agreement is though.
My pleasure, you have the argument down. We've had big discussions about it here. Some people say "people will cry no matter what the company does" which is true to an extent... this is the internet afterall, but to paraphrase the Ninentdo guy "A delayed model is good eventually, a bad model is bad forever." So yeah, delays are not great but acceptable. Bad production of minis, and other shenanigans such as the metal issue, and many more other potential problems are not acceptable and not things you face as a retail customer.
The Dreamforge KS is looking to end up around a year late for the final wave, and while we're disappointed about that in the KS thread, you'd be surprised at how positive we all are. Mark, the creator has been with us the entire way, saying what the delays are, why they are and so forth, and he's delivered ridiculously awesome minis to us, exact translations of the renders we were shown. Just another KS example that hopefully gives more perspective on the issues.
131K, damn... busy busy! I'll keep it in mind, thanks ; )
Antenociti- From what I can tell, the models shown in the size comparison photo are close to what the actual models for this campaign will be- hand cast resin, not mass produced models.
I'm pledging for this partly because I'm not totally convinced they'll be selling these models later- they probably will be, and probably at a similar price, but I want to make this happen so I'm willing to go in just for some add-ons now.
I'm a little less sure about people who are in it for the actual board game, rather than wargaming models... it does seem that the board game will be available later with mass produced plastics, and I feel like a lot of the sweet add-on models (which is all I'm here for) might not get rules in the board game, or just get shoe-horned in. It would be hard to make all of that work well / be balanced together, see Sedition Wars for reference...
So, I'm all about pledging for some models, but the board game I'm a little less sure about. Likewise, this company has shown that they can produce good models, and have a wargame rules framework in place, but the board game rules are a big unknown at this point.
Supposedly a gameplay video is coming, though! But as I'm just here for models that part doesn't matter too much to me just a point to consider.
Also, I really wish they'd make a package discount for people wanting multiple PredAliens! Maybe a pack of 3 or 5/6 with a slight discount? Would be great for people like me and maybe tempt more folks in who just want some wargaming models as add-ons.
looks like it's slowing down now but it's still moving.. I keep looking at the total thinking £107k is lower than I thought it would be by now, but then that's actually like $175k so it's actually better than I thought
The hellhounds heads look cool .. I think they need to post a couple of stretch goals at a time instead of just 1
RiTides wrote: I'm pledging for this partly because I'm not totally convinced they'll be selling these models later- they probably will be, and probably at a similar price, but I want to make this happen so I'm willing to go in just for some add-ons now.
But according to the KS page, the board game is merely a portal for a larger-scale wargame where you can field an entire battalion, hive, etc., supposedly up to 100 models per side. Would be kinda strange for them not to offer any other models to play the game with.
100's of models at those prices? Shudder. I mean its resin, they're not exactly gouging, but I personally can't afford to make one let alone 2-3 resin armies
RiTides wrote: I'm pledging for this partly because I'm not totally convinced they'll be selling these models later- they probably will be, and probably at a similar price, but I want to make this happen so I'm willing to go in just for some add-ons now.
But according to the KS page, the board game is merely a portal for a larger-scale wargame where you can field an entire battalion, hive, etc., supposedly up to 100 models per side. Would be kinda strange for them not to offer any other models to play the game with.
I think the emphasis is more on *these* models, since they're planning on selling single piece plastic ones down the line which won't offer the posability of these multi part resin ones. A hobbyist would much rather the variety of multi pose, I know I really don't like having clone armies.
I don't see me ever playing the huge wargame version. I'm sure it will be fun and cool to have a big army, but I just don't have the time to build giant armies anymore. So I'm hoping there will be a more skirmish level version too.
Necros wrote: I don't see me ever playing the huge wargame version. I'm sure it will be fun and cool to have a big army, but I just don't have the time to build giant armies anymore. So I'm hoping there will be a more skirmish level version too.
Agreed. If I wanted that in a popular sci fi license I'd get a bunch of Starship Troopers. Large scale battles don't really seem to fit this.
RiTides wrote: I think I was mistaken about the first aliens sculpts we've seen being traditionally sculpted, since they showed these renders earlier and they look decidedly digital...
Nah the greens were posted on Dakka not too long before Prodos posted this thread.
RiTides wrote: I think I was mistaken about the first aliens sculpts we've seen being traditionally sculpted, since they showed these renders earlier and they look decidedly digital...
Nah the greens were posted on Dakka not too long before Prodos posted this thread.
It's possible that the originals where hand sculpted then scanned and finished off digitally or they where hand sculpted but not used and redone digitally - so both points of view coud be correct
Well, if I stick with my plan of 6 PredAliens and 6 Hounds for a project I have in mind... that would run me $14 a mini. I wish there was more than one pose on these models... are you guys planning to bend them up in hot water, and will that be useful for more than just the tails?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Better pics! From Titan Games' facebook page, gotta say these help put my mind a lot more at ease, quality looks great on those predators in particular:
Edit: I've copied these into the Dakka gallery (and updated the pics above) for those who might not be able to view facebook, but I've left the link to Titan Games' facebook page above if you want to give them a shout and say thanks for posting these
Imposter101 wrote: Well it looks like they are using the AVPR style for the Alien Warriors, and basically lied when they said they were gonna use the design from Aliens.. Real shame.
Panicking and insulting the producer before day 2 is over?
Prodos said that there will be multiple versions of the Alien, all linked by background story on how Aliens develop and mutate, younger Aliens with smooth heads, older Aliens with ripped heads, other variants depending on the host.
Still time to insult the producer once you have actually seen those versions.
I have a feeling folks who didn't like the aliens from the box will really like the warriors that unlocked; hopefully Prodos will get on that and show a render! The pics above didn't come from them, but I'm guessing they sent the models to Titan Games to show off, so at least they got the word out somehow
Seems like the money has stalled. I think prodos need to show us concept art and things. Information for this is very light on the ground, I fear that it won't get to the Queen...
Medium of Death wrote: Seems like the money has stalled. I think prodos need to show us concept art and things. Information for this is very light on the ground, I fear that it won't get to the Queen...
I cancelled my pledge this afternoon, partially because I have too many irons in the fire, partly because I have little people to buy presents for and partly because I just wasn't excited for it in the same way as I was when it was announced.
Invite a friend and both get an AVP model of your choice* for free!
*So if you get a friend to pledge £75 or more and then post your KS name below, you will both get a model on 40mm base or less of your choice for free.
Will you go for a Alien Warrior, colonial medic, the sergeant or a predator
Will they have a predator hellhound, the female pred or maybe facehugger?
Get more friends to pledge and shout you, you get more free models!
The last pledger was number 873, the new person has to have a higher number than that! New pledgers, you can be the inviter too!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hang on, Colonial Medic?!
I think RiTides has to comment on update #6 that he got you to back probably best if tides mentions your KS backer name as well.
Not sure if this will help or harm them - why would you pledge now without getting a "friend" to hook you up so both of you get freebies. This thread could end up full of people looking to get the bring a friend offer.
EDIT sorry reread it looks like the new backer mentions the current backer "friend" in the comments.
This is...annoying, mostly. And yeah, it's going to mostly inspire requestspamming while not incentivising actual promotion of the project *at all*. Their party, I guess.
Someone mentioned this in the KS comments but what's to stop a current backer dropping out entirely and then getting another backer to invite them back - I assume KS gives you new backer number if you entirely drop a pledge then re peldge later so you appear to be a new backer - this could be messy.
Bolognesus- Maybe, but it did get us talking about the project again! I'll PM you Alph, if you don't end up joining in I have a friend who may at some point
The project creator sees who drops out so while you could in theory bail out with your current ID and then rejoin with a different one to avoid being spotted it's probably more than many will bother to do
like you can in theory run 2 accounts to get extra 'one per backer' freebies some will split a big pledge up to do this, most just can't be bothered
I had actually drop/added this morning, but for an unrelated reason (was changing payment methods and chose to do it that way for whatever reason). Well before this update, though, so my number is definitely below the line they posted.
Edit: Agreed Bolognesus . This got Alpharius in, and I've got another friend about to join too because of this! Although I know this only works once, of course
Bolognesus wrote: This is...annoying, mostly. And yeah, it's going to mostly inspire requestspamming while not incentivising actual promotion of the project *at all*. Their party, I guess.
It also looks like it's caused them to lose 62 or so backers since it was posted.
Including me. Dropped my "Game Over, Man" $600 pledge since the "extras" were the same as the lower level unlimited pledges anyway, give or take a couple of facehuggers. While I can handle EB levels, I'm not a fan of time-limited rewards that penalise people who back a campaign earlier or later, and this kind of manipulation pisses me off. Back to the sidelines for the next three weeks for me.
Imposter101 wrote: Well it looks like they are using the AVPR style for the Alien Warriors, and basically lied when they said they were gonna use the design from Aliens.. Real shame.
Panicking and insulting the producer before day 2 is over?
Pointing out lying and being critical is insulting and panicking? Great logic.
Prodos said that there will be multiple versions of the Alien, all linked by background story on how Aliens develop and mutate, younger Aliens with smooth heads, older Aliens with ripped heads, other variants depending on the host.
Still time to insult the producer once you have actually seen those versions.
Bolognesus wrote: This is...annoying, mostly. And yeah, it's going to mostly inspire requestspamming while not incentivising actual promotion of the project *at all*. Their party, I guess.
It also looks like it's caused them to lose 62 or so backers since it was posted.
They had 804 active backers when it was posted but they had 873 backers in total, 69 backers had pledged and then dropped out before the update KS doesn't reallocate a pledge number when a backer drops out it keeps allocating new numbers.
They had 804 active backers when it was posted but they had 873 backers in total, 69 backers had pledged and then dropped out before the update KS doesn't reallocate a pledge number when a backer drops out it keeps allocating new numbers.
Ah, I see. Oh well - I lose nothing from dropping out now regardless. I was only in at all at this stage since the GOM level is limited and it looked like it might become interesting. If they manage to woo me back later, I'll worry about it then but I'm pretty nonplussed right now.
Imposter101 wrote: Well it looks like they are using the AVPR style for the Alien Warriors, and basically lied when they said they were gonna use the design from Aliens.. Real shame.
Panicking and insulting the producer before day 2 is over?
Pointing out lying and being critical is insulting and panicking? Great logic.
Prodos said that there will be multiple versions of the Alien, all linked by background story on how Aliens develop and mutate, younger Aliens with smooth heads, older Aliens with ripped heads, other variants depending on the host.
Still time to insult the producer once you have actually seen those versions.
Cause that's like what I totally did.
Too many Hudsons here and not enough Ripleys.
Hypocrisy, it's a party.
2/10 Kroothawk.
So you seem to be the only person here who has seen all of Prodos Alien sculps and can confirm that there is no Aliens version among them and Prodos lied.
Can you please show pics of all those sculpts? Or did you indeed insult Prodos as a lier based on nothing?
I'm not too worried either way, personally. They need to do a lot of work to entice me back at this stage. Unless they manage to do that, my current mindset is that I'm more likely to revisit this at retail in about 12 months time, depending on the quality of the final content and game reviews, etc.
My concern is that the Kickstarter is coming off as a amateur Kickstarter compared to others like Mantic and CMON. Prodos has claims of huge financial backing which made me think they don't need my help. Some of their arrogance in replies to backers is off putting. Then to top it off their website for Warzone is brutal.
I read the comments on the Warzone Kickstarter and people have outstanding orders yet Prodos claims it has already "completed" a Kickstarter.
Despite all that their models have fantastic detail and the AvP universe is so rich it could make a great TTG. I just really have reservations about Prodos and if it can make a great Kickstarter. it seems everytime they gain traction they do something to offset it, I feel bad for the Prodos guys because I get the feeling they trying to please everyone and that is just not possible.
Why on earth would Prodos want to create such a tracking nightmare during their kick starter. A generous offer that doesn't seem to have been thought out very well. Why not just say X amount of the first pledges and make their lives easier? So pledges are dropping to then re-pledge to get the offer. Oy.
Azazelx wrote: I think we're best off giving it a couple of weeks to see how it turns out. Now that I've pulled my pledge, I'm much more relaxed about it all.
Wasn't this a bit early for you?
Or you now switching things up and moving to a 'Threatening to Pledge' paradigm?
Ha! It's a lot of money, and as I said, the only reason I went in early was because of the limited-large pledge, but even that was an "on the fence, but I'll grab one now just in case" thing....
Automatically Appended Next Post: Though I'm "threatening to pledge" on Journey and Shadows of Brimstone. AVP was one of the reasons I hadn't pulled the trigger on either, now I'm leaning the other way. So it's also a matter of limited money and too many places to spend it.
Azazelx wrote: Ha! It's a lot of money, and as I said, the only reason I went in early was because of the limited-large pledge, but even that was an "on the fence, but I'll grab one now just in case" thing....
Automatically Appended Next Post: Though I'm "threatening to pledge" on Journey and Shadows of Brimstone. AVP was one of the reasons I hadn't pulled the trigger on either, now I'm leaning the other way. So it's also a matter of limited money and too many places to spend it.
Heh, I will join you in this regard: having a good idea what Prodos is doing with this by now, I am definitely pledging Journey. I'm keeping a deminimus pledge here for the updates (and to occassionally needle them about the Predators), but barring an almost inconceivable alteration in pledge structure that's the limit of my enthusiasm. Beyond that, Journey just seems more... I hate to say "worthy", but... I kinda want to.
That said, this does seem like fascinating candidate for a post mortem. I may be able to combine it with Bones II (the Bonening), which has been recommended to the slab.
Thanks for posting that Absolutionis, it does look nice! Although I've never understood the design of the Predalien, having that head shape makes no sense at all. It's like saying if an alien came out of a Rastafarian it would have a hair-style to match
Very nearly £120k now! Glad to see there is the occasional freebe thrown in, it's looking a better deal all the time.
Hey guys, update from the comments, Prodos listened and the free model will now be to everyone at £75 or over if we hit 2000 backers.
Here's the quote:
Prodos wrote:Ok chaps, so this has induced more negativity than we thought. To explain 873 pledgers, when some one pledges they get a unique number, if they then drop out its not retro filled. On WZR we ended with pledge number 2017, but actually 931 pledgers.
Anyway, I write in bold not to shout, instead for all to see: THE OFFER IN UPDATE 6 WILL BE REPLACED WITH IF WE GET TO 2000 COMPLETED PLEDGERS ALL PLEDGERS AT £75 or MORE WILL RECEIVE AN ADDITIONAL £10 OF ADD ONS
So, I know we're not all perfectly pleased with how they're running the campaign, but they are listening!
I also just posted and emailed them this question. I have a feeling I won't be eligible for the free model as I am at "Anytime" with all add-ons, but I figured it was worth asking. They're probably making more money off me than anyone else since I'm only getting a dozen models . So yeah, worth asking!
Hi Prodos,
Regarding the free model if we hit 2000 backers- does this apply to anyone pledging a monetary value of £75 or more, as written, or only to "We're in the Pipe, Five by Five" and up pledge levels?
I.e., I am at Anytime but have pledged £130 (6 PredAliens, 6 Hounds, 3 Dice Sets). So I am just wondering if I will qualify for that. Since you probably will clarify it in the next update, I thought you could clarify it all in one go.
BrookM wrote: Like I said before, I'm sure things will kick up a notch when certain news sites get air of this.
You fill in those 'certain news sites' yourself then?
feth if I know what kind of sites run this stuff. AvP fan places? Didn't Waging Hewoes also get a (ego) boost when they got coverage from a site or two?
True enough I suppose. Plus judging from a comments there are a few people who aren't super pleased that Warzone is as of yet not still wrapped up, so there's always that bit.
The lack of renders beyond the first lot is starting to concern me considering this must release by May (according to their licence apparently) and that a lot of work was supposed to have been done already there seems to still be lot of work to get done and it's not really going to happen during the relatively short KS run.
Right, seems they are listening. I don't know if 2K pledgers is such an optimistic goal; close to half on the first few days, and I'm sure something like this (especially without all kinds of early bird shenanigans!) will draw a significant burst of backing in the last few days, as well.
Definitely think this could benefit from having cross-format advertising, this has the potential to bring in a lot of 'casuals' who wouldn't normally go near miniature games.
Bolognesus wrote: Right, seems they are listening. I don't know if 2K pledgers is such an optimistic goal; close to half on the first few days, and I'm sure something like this (especially without all kinds of early bird shenanigans!) will draw a significant burst of backing in the last few days, as well.
Things tend to slow down markedly after the first 48 to 72 hours of a kickstarter and then pickup in the last 48 to 72. It'll likely take them a while (two weeks?) to get 2000 backers.
Yes cincy, or rather, replaced by the 2000 backers goal.
I've realized that I'll get a better deal on my "add-ons only" approach if I combine with someone's pledge, so I've PM'ed Alpharius about that . I don't need the stretch goals since I'm picking and choosing what I want (right now, just PredAliens, Hounds, and dice) and it's a better deal for me to combine with someone buying the game.
So hopefully Alpharius is up for that, and if not I may end up posting here to see if someone is up for combining with me (ideally someone currently at the £125 level).
Bolognesus wrote: Right, seems they are listening. I don't know if 2K pledgers is such an optimistic goal; close to half on the first few days, and I'm sure something like this (especially without all kinds of early bird shenanigans!) will draw a significant burst of backing in the last few days, as well.
Things tend to slow down markedly after the first 48 to 72 hours of a kickstarter and then pick up in the last 48 to 72. It'll likely take them a while (two weeks?) to get 2000 backers.
I know... But most projects gain more in the last 3 days than the first 3, from what I've seen.
Now this has been advertised in advance a bit which tends to front load pledging, but OTOH no early birds, and a very big pool of thus-far both unfamiliar with prodos and not wargaming-forum-going potential backers leads me to believe that trend will be present in this project as well.
Yes I don't think this KS will be standard in the way it progresses at all - think it might take a while to get word out for it (and really, my main criticism for the project at this point is that it needs some more marketing/advertising $ spent on it), but also as it becomes a better deal in terms of extra minis those who have been sitting on the fence for financial reasons might be more inclined to pledge.
Not a huge fan of the sentry guns, they look rather generic. Hopefully the Royal Guard look good (wonder if there will be a pic of any kind?). After that it's a long slog through 3 game component related stretches (interspersed by one Alien stretch) before the final Predator / Marines / Alien / Alien finish on the chart.
TBH there is not really that much to those sentry guns, bearing in mind they didn't even make it into the theatrical release of the movie. So, hopefully pretty difficult to get wrong!
Regarding the highest pledge level
---"… Gᴀᴍᴇ Oᴠᴇʀ Mᴀɴ, Gᴀᴍᴇ Oᴠᴇʀ!"--- Prodos Games will sculpt your face and head and make you 100 copies to use on any 28mm-sized Prodos Games model + Free "ᖘᴀʏʙᴀᴄᴋ ᴛɪᴍᴇ" and "ᗩɴʏᴛɪᴍᴇ" rewards (~$600).
If money was no issue, I would so get myself sculpted as chest-burster victim
The Facebook page has (at the time of this post) 5,500 'likes', whilst the KS backers total just 854... Hopefully there will be a rush to pledge as more goals get unlocked and / or some more renders appear. No doubt there are lot of folk piggy-backing on others pledges, you only need one copy of game between several players and this way they just buy the figures they want...
I do think a £1.00 pledge level that then allowed you to buy the add-ons would have been majorly beneficial for this KS. I'm about to go for that level on the Mars Attacks KS so that I can Martian Dredd and few other bits...
I've a feeling the stretch goal chart isn't final and there are more than the 6 ??? goals left before the Queen - notice how the last one doesn't link to the Queen like the others do. Depending on how this does they will probably add more slots to the chart and the Queen will get pushed back until near the end.
I think I'll pass on the Sentry guns too easy to proxy with other models (I have 6 SW Havoks) I'll save the money for something else.
I do think a £1.00 pledge level that then allowed you to buy the add-ons would have been majorly beneficial for this KS. I'm about to go for that level on the Mars Attacks KS so that I can Martian Dredd and few other bits...
If they did that they'd potentially take a huge hit on shipping , t
the £10 level allows them to pay for it and they do give you the rules pdf as a sweetener
I do think a £1.00 pledge level that then allowed you to buy the add-ons would have been majorly beneficial for this KS. I'm about to go for that level on the Mars Attacks KS so that I can Martian Dredd and few other bits...
If they did that they'd potentially take a huge hit on shipping , t
the £10 level allows them to pay for it and they do give you the rules pdf as a sweetener
Ahh, good point - I overlooked the US postage of £10... Works for US buyers, but not for UK - already get free postage, then you have to pay £10 for a PDF...
Dunno if everyone saw this under the comments in update #6
Prodos Games Ltd about 9 hours ago
Ok chaps, so this has induced more negativity than we thought. To explain 873 pledgers, when some one pledges they get a unique number, if they then drop out its not retro filled. On WZR we ended with pledge number 2017, but actually 931 pledgers.
Anyway, I write in bold not to shout, instead for all to see: THE OFFER IN UPDATE 6 WILL BE REPLACED WITH IF WE GET TO 2000 COMPLETED PLEDGERS ALL PLEDGERS AT £75 or MORE WILL RECEIVE AN ADDITIONAL £10 OF ADD ONS
Forlorn wrote: Dunno if everyone saw this under the comments in update #6
Prodos Games Ltd about 9 hours ago
Ok chaps, so this has induced more negativity than we thought. To explain 873 pledgers, when some one pledges they get a unique number, if they then drop out its not retro filled. On WZR we ended with pledge number 2017, but actually 931 pledgers.
Anyway, I write in bold not to shout, instead for all to see: THE OFFER IN UPDATE 6 WILL BE REPLACED WITH IF WE GET TO 2000 COMPLETED PLEDGERS ALL PLEDGERS AT £75 or MORE WILL RECEIVE AN ADDITIONAL £10 OF ADD ONS
BrookM wrote:Also, the USCM Medic is the female marine with the incinerator, so no new model.
Weird. Weapon specialist = Medic? "Hey Vasquez, have you ever been mistaken for a nurse?"
If you've ever seen the movie you'll notice that cpl. Dietrich, the designated Hospital Corpsman of the squad, also carries a flamer as her primary armament.
I think the Praetorians will be at £150k with a "freebie" at £140k they seem to have settled into that sort of pattern and they will probably be on the pricer side as you probably wont need many. It will interesting to see what design they use for them.
Thanks DaveC, that was ian interesting read - makes me excited for the sculpts and possible iterations of the praetorians. Hive King sound seriously interesting.
Some of the stuff seemed contradictory though
Has anyone figured out what's on the horizon for Fox? Since this has a set date for release I mean. Prometheus is not part of the license, but there seems to be 2 sequels in the pipeline.
It seems that Predators(!) 2 has been confirmed so I am wondering if that is it. I am guessing that would be part of the license as well and could lead to some interesting new figures...
Yes that was my thought as well.. a couple of times a release window (as dictated by the license) has been mentioned.
There was also talk of a 'big announcement' from Fox some time ago, where I don't think anything materialised. Would be interesting to know what it was about, quite possibly connected !
Was that the comic book? I remember the first game was released on Atari Jaguar hehehe in 1994. I can't remember if they scanned actual real models or just photographed them in all angels for the ingame graphics...
Recruit a friend has been replaced with the 2000 backer reward per update #7.
I wonder how that fine mesh is going to transfer to regular plastic there could be quite a bit of detail loss. My only slight issue with the Predators is the dreads have an odd flow to them due to the head being separate to the body but I guess that's unavoidable.
Meh, now that I've given what I can/want to to MA, I'll have to pop on over to the AvP page and give it a look over. I want nothing to do with terrain, box game, or humans, but I may look into getting an Alien, Predator, or some combination (a set, or hybrid, read it both ways ) to paint up for my nephew. Not sure though, international shipping would probably make it not worth the effort. Maybe on eBay after it's done.
. Apparently no one like "Predator 2", I don't see that recommended anywhere 
