I mean, nothing stops that wave of bolters from shooting the grots first so they cant take the lascannon shots afterwords other than how "optimal" your opponent is trying to be and doesnt want to overkill something.
15 bolters should delete a 10man grot squad without even trying. But theres those people that dont want to overkill because its "wasteful" and will fire at the manz anyway - big mistake...
Vineheart01 wrote: I mean, nothing stops that wave of bolters from shooting the grots first so they cant take the lascannon shots afterwords other than how "optimal" your opponent is trying to be and doesnt want to overkill something. 15 bolters should delete a 10man grot squad without even trying. But theres those people that dont want to overkill because its "wasteful" and will fire at the manz anyway - big mistake...
You know that you don't need a big single unit for grot shields. You can use any Grots in range, regardless of what unit they are in. If you have 4x10 grot units in front of you, you have 40 grots available as shields.
‘Grot Gunner: Add 1 to hit rolls for attacks made with this model’s twin big shoota.’
Is it for one Twin Big Shoota or both..? Only the other is manned by a Grot so I guess RAI is you get it on only the one but I'm not a rules lawyer so could be either way I suppose.
Weazel wrote: A great FAQ overall, but the Scrapjet is strange.
‘Grot Gunner: Add 1 to hit rolls for attacks made with this model’s twin big shoota.’
Is it for one Twin Big Shoota or both..? Only the other is manned by a Grot so I guess RAI is you get it on only the one but I'm not a rules lawyer so could be either way I suppose.
Probably both, for simplicity's sake. Maybe the grot hops from gun to gun. Seems like a greenskin thing to do.
Yeah that is a very strange errata. It kind of doesn't make sense because it has 2 twin big shootas, so to refer to "a" twin big shooter doesn't make sense. It would need to say "one of". Unless of course in Ork "Shoota" is like "Sheep" and the plural of Shoota is Shoota.
Considering other buggies have a random single weapon at +1 to hit (+2 for dragsta because eyeball squig) i imagine its for 1 twinbigshoota not both.
So 6 shots are 4+ now. Not amazing but buffs are buffs lol. I already consider it one of the best buggies.
Weazel wrote: A great FAQ overall, but the Scrapjet is strange.
‘Grot Gunner: Add 1 to hit rolls for attacks made with this model’s twin big shoota.’
Is it for one Twin Big Shoota or both..? Only the other is manned by a Grot so I guess RAI is you get it on only the one but I'm not a rules lawyer so could be either way I suppose.
Probably both, for simplicity's sake.
Maybe the grot hops from gun to gun. Seems like a greenskin thing to do.
Maybe there is a 2nd grot, tucked up between the engine and the fuselage. He fires by looking through the turbofan blades.
the_scotsman wrote: I feel exactly as much sympathy for you as I do for anyone who ran out and bought 60 meganobz because they thought they were getting a 2++ with Loot It.
There was absolutely no-one that seriously thought that they were going to allow for 2++ meganobz.
and yet, there appears to be someone who is salty that a stratagem that requires you to use it on a vehicle with fly does not apply to infantry models embarked on an obscure FW transport.
Takes all sorts I guess.
Aye, though considering both rulings were technically legaI RAW, and that the chinokrk cheese is much more counterable... I do feel for the guy (it just would have meant that the chinork would be targeted first turn every game, problem solved). Even HamCatBacon knew 2++ MANz had an expiry date today.
Vineheart01 wrote: I mean, nothing stops that wave of bolters from shooting the grots first so they cant take the lascannon shots afterwords other than how "optimal" your opponent is trying to be and doesnt want to overkill something.
15 bolters should delete a 10man grot squad without even trying. But theres those people that dont want to overkill because its "wasteful" and will fire at the manz anyway - big mistake...
You know that you don't need a big single unit for grot shields. You can use any Grots in range, regardless of what unit they are in. If you have 4x10 grot units in front of you, you have 40 grots available as shields.
realistically though unless your MANz were footslogging how you gonna have more than 1 unit of grots infront of them? Can only Da Jump 1 unit a turn.
I dont even think i want MANz in transports at all now. Tellyport, or not at all
Vineheart01 wrote: I mean, nothing stops that wave of bolters from shooting the grots first so they cant take the lascannon shots afterwords other than how "optimal" your opponent is trying to be and doesnt want to overkill something.
15 bolters should delete a 10man grot squad without even trying. But theres those people that dont want to overkill because its "wasteful" and will fire at the manz anyway - big mistake...
You know that you don't need a big single unit for grot shields. You can use any Grots in range, regardless of what unit they are in. If you have 4x10 grot units in front of you, you have 40 grots available as shields.
realistically though unless your MANz were footslogging how you gonna have more than 1 unit of grots infront of them? Can only Da Jump 1 unit a turn.
I dont even think i want MANz in transports at all now. Tellyport, or not at all
What you do is put Manz in a battlewagon with 10 grots. That way when the Battlewagon dies, you can have grots die to the disembark instead of Manz
Weazel wrote: A great FAQ overall, but the Scrapjet is strange.
‘Grot Gunner: Add 1 to hit rolls for attacks made with this model’s twin big shoota.’
Is it for one Twin Big Shoota or both..? Only the other is manned by a Grot so I guess RAI is you get it on only the one but I'm not a rules lawyer so could be either way I suppose.
Probably both, for simplicity's sake.
Maybe the grot hops from gun to gun. Seems like a greenskin thing to do.
FAQ uses singular term though rather than plural so unless we assume GW messed up singular/plural it would be 1 big shoota.
Still rather silly they manage to make faq about that need a faq!
Weazel wrote: A great FAQ overall, but the Scrapjet is strange.
‘Grot Gunner: Add 1 to hit rolls for attacks made with this model’s twin big shoota.’
Is it for one Twin Big Shoota or both..? Only the other is manned by a Grot so I guess RAI is you get it on only the one but I'm not a rules lawyer so could be either way I suppose.
Probably both, for simplicity's sake. Maybe the grot hops from gun to gun. Seems like a greenskin thing to do.
FAQ uses singular term though rather than plural so unless we assume GW messed up singular/plural it would be 1 big shoota.
Still rather silly they manage to make faq about that need a faq!
For all we know Shoota is like Sheep, both singular and plural. Honestly it's one step forward, two steps back with GW
Weazel wrote: A great FAQ overall, but the Scrapjet is strange.
‘Grot Gunner: Add 1 to hit rolls for attacks made with this model’s twin big shoota.’
Is it for one Twin Big Shoota or both..? Only the other is manned by a Grot so I guess RAI is you get it on only the one but I'm not a rules lawyer so could be either way I suppose.
Probably both, for simplicity's sake.
Maybe the grot hops from gun to gun. Seems like a greenskin thing to do.
FAQ uses singular term though rather than plural so unless we assume GW messed up singular/plural it would be 1 big shoota.
Still rather silly they manage to make faq about that need a faq!
For all we know Shoota is like Sheep, both singular and plural. Honestly it's one step forward, two steps back with GW
No, there's a plural form.
The gorkanaut and morkanaut have "2 twin big shootas"
I guess GW done goofed, or they thought they were being clear. I guess we need a bit more clarification.
The Manz loot it nerf (I'd play it as they ignored one point of AP not a 2++) makes me swing back more towards normal nobx since they're so cheap and can still utilise both loot it and grot shield. I'll miss 3W but they just feel like a better deal now..
Just a 2+ seem to fall short when playing eldar & tyranids I feel, but maybe there are some kunnin tricks I'm missing from my play to make 'em work
Some people talk so good about bad moon lootas, but I'm not sure about this
Bad moon lootas have a 63% chance to hit. They would get a 33% chance to hit otherwise. That's pretty good. However, Mek Gunz are the better choice overall. Their power-levels are much too low for what they provide. 2 mek guns will give you 12 wounds worth of models with harder hitting guns. You won't shoot as often, but you will hit harder. If you use smasha guns you will pay less points than with lootas, because of how over priced lootas are. Or maybe smasha guns are too cheap.
Some people talk so good about bad moon lootas, but I'm not sure about this
Bad moon lootas have a 63% chance to hit. They would get a 33% chance to hit otherwise. That's pretty good.
However, Mek Gunz are the better choice overall. Their power-levels are much too low for what they provide.
2 mek guns will give you 12 wounds worth of models with harder hitting guns. You won't shoot as often, but you will hit harder.
If you use smasha guns you will pay less points than with lootas, because of how over priced lootas are. Or maybe smasha guns are too cheap.
...Are you sure about that? I get 45.2% chance with reroll 1s, then DDD on the 6s, then reroll 1s on those DDD shots.
Some people talk so good about bad moon lootas, but I'm not sure about this
5 lootas is too few. If you go for lootas you go for 15 or none. When you have 15 of them they can literally one shot Magnus if you go first and there's pretty much nothing Tzeentch CAN do to stop it as you can always da jump them to new position(without interfering your hit chance) if Magnus has initially out of LOS.
However with 5 lootas strategems are too inefficient to be worth it. Without strategems mek guns pack better punch. With 15 lootas though you can pinpoint 30 S7 -1 D2 hits anywhere you want. With same point smasha guns you would get 11 hits which isn't as much of a punch against several targets. Of course against targets where better AP is more of a thing smasha gun helps.
edit: And yes I know that's lots of CP's(4 to be specific) so isn't best options always. But I'm just saying if you take bad moon lootas you take them in big and with intention of using those cp's as without cp's the unit kind of loses it's point. If you don't want to use cp(though more dakka can be situationally be dropped. It's not automatic) because you feel they are better off elsewhere then clearly no lootas to the army!
Some people talk so good about bad moon lootas, but I'm not sure about this
Bad moon lootas have a 63% chance to hit. They would get a 33% chance to hit otherwise. That's pretty good.
However, Mek Gunz are the better choice overall. Their power-levels are much too low for what they provide.
2 mek guns will give you 12 wounds worth of models with harder hitting guns. You won't shoot as often, but you will hit harder.
If you use smasha guns you will pay less points than with lootas, because of how over priced lootas are. Or maybe smasha guns are too cheap.
...Are you sure about that? I get 45.2% chance with reroll 1s, then DDD on the 6s, then reroll 1s on those DDD shots.
BS5+ with bad moons and DDD result in a 46.5% chance to hit. If you're at 45% you're probably forgetting that the DDD shots also get to reroll 1's
Some people talk so good about bad moon lootas, but I'm not sure about this
Bad moon lootas have a 63% chance to hit. They would get a 33% chance to hit otherwise. That's pretty good.
However, Mek Gunz are the better choice overall. Their power-levels are much too low for what they provide.
2 mek guns will give you 12 wounds worth of models with harder hitting guns. You won't shoot as often, but you will hit harder.
If you use smasha guns you will pay less points than with lootas, because of how over priced lootas are. Or maybe smasha guns are too cheap.
...Are you sure about that? I get 45.2% chance with reroll 1s, then DDD on the 6s, then reroll 1s on those DDD shots.
Did you subtract from 1? You are normally supposed to subtract from 1. I tend not to factor in DDD, because that gives me a head ache, and that just gives you extra shots anyway.
The formula I used is 1-(0.66*0.83*0.66)
The first 0.66 refers to chance of failing the 5+ to hit, and the 0.83 refers to the chance of not rolling a one, and the second 0.66 refers to not hitting again.
1-(0.36) = 0.64 = 64%
I may have made a rounding error during my initial calculation, but close enough.
Now, my math is probably off, but that's what I read on calculating probability with rerolls.
Some people talk so good about bad moon lootas, but I'm not sure about this
5 lootas is too few. If you go for lootas you go for 15 or none. When you have 15 of them they can literally one shot Magnus if you go first and there's pretty much nothing Tzeentch CAN do to stop it as you can always da jump them to new position(without interfering your hit chance) if Magnus has initially out of LOS.
However with 5 lootas strategems are too inefficient to be worth it. Without strategems mek guns pack better punch. With 15 lootas though you can pinpoint 30 S7 -1 D2 hits anywhere you want. With same point smasha guns you would get 11 hits which isn't as much of a punch against several targets. Of course against targets where better AP is more of a thing smasha gun helps.
edit: And yes I know that's lots of CP's(4 to be specific) so isn't best options always. But I'm just saying if you take bad moon lootas you take them in big and with intention of using those cp's as without cp's the unit kind of loses it's point. If you don't want to use cp(though more dakka can be situationally be dropped. It's not automatic) because you feel they are better off elsewhere then clearly no lootas to the army!
Idk, 10 seem like a good number too, but only if they are all lootas. There is no point in taking spannas. They are more than a loota and they don't have the range.
GW really screwed up pricing them. Burna boys also get spannas, which are the exact same as in a loota squad, but they are like, half the price because of the weird 8th pricing system.
Vineheart01 wrote: I mean, nothing stops that wave of bolters from shooting the grots first so they cant take the lascannon shots afterwords other than how "optimal" your opponent is trying to be and doesnt want to overkill something.
15 bolters should delete a 10man grot squad without even trying. But theres those people that dont want to overkill because its "wasteful" and will fire at the manz anyway - big mistake...
Provided the tabel has enough terrain and given how small grot models are one could keep them as much as possible between the manz and threats but out of LOS from major threats to them. IE in a vaccum or 1 dev squad and one tac squad. try and keep grots between the devs and manz while staying out of los of the tac marines. so sure... please choose to las cannon my grots and bolter my manz.
Well guess 10 could work somewhat if you are strung on points. But 5 is way too little. Without strategems the mek guns will be better but 2/4CP(plus possibly 1 more to reroll that 1 on shot count) would be super expensive for 5 lootas. Even for 10 can be bit expensive especially if you don't go first and thus likely suffer casualties. It's question of balancing points and CP efficiency.
Some people talk so good about bad moon lootas, but I'm not sure about this
Bad moon lootas have a 63% chance to hit. They would get a 33% chance to hit otherwise. That's pretty good.
However, Mek Gunz are the better choice overall. Their power-levels are much too low for what they provide.
2 mek guns will give you 12 wounds worth of models with harder hitting guns. You won't shoot as often, but you will hit harder.
If you use smasha guns you will pay less points than with lootas, because of how over priced lootas are. Or maybe smasha guns are too cheap.
...Are you sure about that? I get 45.2% chance with reroll 1s, then DDD on the 6s, then reroll 1s on those DDD shots.
Did you subtract from 1? You are normally supposed to subtract from 1. I tend not to factor in DDD, because that gives me a head ache, and that just gives you extra shots anyway.
The formula I used is 1-(0.66*0.83*0.66)
The first 0.66 refers to chance of failing the 5+ to hit, and the 0.83 refers to the chance of not rolling a one, and the second 0.66 refers to not hitting again.
1-(0.36) = 0.64 = 64%
I may have made a rounding error during my initial calculation, but close enough.
Now, my math is probably off, but that's what I read on calculating probability with rerolls.
No, you're using compound probability when this is additive.
What I did was:
1 shot times .33 = .33 base hit chance.
1 shot times .18 *.33 = reroll 1s hit chance.
1 shot times .18 *.33 = DDD extra hit chance.
1 shot times .18*.18*.33 = DDD Reroll 1s hit chance.
Add those together to get the overall probability of hitting with those rerolls. You do not do compound probability with simultaneous events like rerolls of a percentage of dice in a single roll.
Vineheart01 wrote: I mean, nothing stops that wave of bolters from shooting the grots first so they cant take the lascannon shots afterwords other than how "optimal" your opponent is trying to be and doesnt want to overkill something.
15 bolters should delete a 10man grot squad without even trying. But theres those people that dont want to overkill because its "wasteful" and will fire at the manz anyway - big mistake...
Provided the tabel has enough terrain and given how small grot models are one could keep them as much as possible between the manz and threats but out of LOS from major threats to them. IE in a vaccum or 1 dev squad and one tac squad. try and keep grots between the devs and manz while staying out of los of the tac marines. so sure... please choose to las cannon my grots and bolter my manz.
That's...Pretty custom terrain keeping in mind all the raised pistols and swords grots have. Raised arms knife is not THAT much shorter than meganob seeing tip of the knife is enough for whole squad to be seen.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote: 1 shot times .33 = .33 base hit chance.
1 shot times .18 *.33 = reroll 1s hit chance.
1 shot times .18 *.33 = DDD extra hit chance.
1 shot times .18*.18*.33 = DDD Reroll 1s hit chance.
Add those together to get the overall probability of hitting with those rerolls. You do not do compound probability with simultaneous events like rerolls of a percentage of dice in a single roll.
What that 0.18 is? 1/6(say odds of getting extra shot) is 16.6666666666....6 so not even 17%.
Vineheart01 wrote: I mean, nothing stops that wave of bolters from shooting the grots first so they cant take the lascannon shots afterwords other than how "optimal" your opponent is trying to be and doesnt want to overkill something.
15 bolters should delete a 10man grot squad without even trying. But theres those people that dont want to overkill because its "wasteful" and will fire at the manz anyway - big mistake...
Provided the tabel has enough terrain and given how small grot models are one could keep them as much as possible between the manz and threats but out of LOS from major threats to them. IE in a vaccum or 1 dev squad and one tac squad. try and keep grots between the devs and manz while staying out of los of the tac marines. so sure... please choose to las cannon my grots and bolter my manz.
That's...Pretty custom terrain keeping in mind all the raised pistols and swords grots have. Raised arms knife is not THAT much shorter than meganob seeing tip of the knife is enough for whole squad to be seen.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote: 1 shot times .33 = .33 base hit chance.
1 shot times .18 *.33 = reroll 1s hit chance.
1 shot times .18 *.33 = DDD extra hit chance.
1 shot times .18*.18*.33 = DDD Reroll 1s hit chance.
Add those together to get the overall probability of hitting with those rerolls. You do not do compound probability with simultaneous events like rerolls of a percentage of dice in a single roll.
What that 0.18 is? 1/6(say odds of getting extra shot) is 16.6666666666....6 so not even 17%.
Sorry, I had it mixed up - on my calculator i divided by 6.
I'll repost my old math on this, from when the Bad Moons trait was first revealed:
Say you fire 60 shots at BS5
20 are hits. 10 shots are 1's. Reroll those.
That should net you an extra 3,33 hits.
So 23,33 hits. Half of those are 6's.
So 11,65 extra shots. Divide that by 3,nets you 3,88 extra hits.
Those 11.65 extra shots should also have another 1,94 1's in there. Reroll those for another 0.65 hits.
So you get 20+3.33+3.88+0.64 hits. for a total of 27.85 hits That's 46.4%
Vineheart01 wrote: I mean, nothing stops that wave of bolters from shooting the grots first so they cant take the lascannon shots afterwords other than how "optimal" your opponent is trying to be and doesnt want to overkill something.
15 bolters should delete a 10man grot squad without even trying. But theres those people that dont want to overkill because its "wasteful" and will fire at the manz anyway - big mistake...
Provided the tabel has enough terrain and given how small grot models are one could keep them as much as possible between the manz and threats but out of LOS from major threats to them. IE in a vaccum or 1 dev squad and one tac squad. try and keep grots between the devs and manz while staying out of los of the tac marines. so sure... please choose to las cannon my grots and bolter my manz.
That's...Pretty custom terrain keeping in mind all the raised pistols and swords grots have. Raised arms knife is not THAT much shorter than meganob seeing tip of the knife is enough for whole squad to be seen.
depends on your gaming store or own table. in my area we use a lot of LOS blockign terrain as playing on planet bowling ball mean imperial soup is unbeatable. all terrain is tall enough or played as if it is tall enough to block LOS of any infantry model. think short pieces of stone wall and sandbags scattered, usually large enough to fit 5-10 models. from about 45 degrees on the opposite side of the board. additionally as I plan to run my MANZ it will be 2 5 man units in 2 BWs with 10 gretchen each. possibly with a painboy on bike keeping up.the BW assumign they do nto get blown up on the turn 2 when the orks disembark can also be used to block LOS as well.
Coh Magnussen wrote: Haven't seen it mentioned yet, but it looks like the double-choppa nob is dead (long live the big/little choppa nob)?
faq wrote: Page 83 – Ork Wargear Lists, Battlewagon Equipment Add the following sentence: ‘Each item can only be taken once.’
I shall highlight the part you have missed. That's only for Battlewagons. In fact the FAQ explicitly allows double choppa.
Q: When a Nob replaces their slugga and choppa with items from the Nob Weapons list, can they take two weapons from the first list and one weapon from the second list, for a total of three weapons (e.g. a big choppa, killsaw and a kombi-weapon with skorcha)? A: No. They can take two weapons in total, only one of which can be from the second list.
Yeah nothing is stopping nobz from chopchopping it up. It was there to prevent you from taking a kombi weapon as its own freebie slot instead of replacing one of those choppas.
depends on your gaming store or own table. in my area we use a lot of LOS blockign terrain as playing on planet bowling ball mean imperial soup is unbeatable. all terrain is tall enough or played as if it is tall enough to block LOS of any infantry model. think short pieces of stone wall and sandbags scattered, usually large enough to fit 5-10 models. from about 45 degrees on the opposite side of the board. additionally as I plan to run my MANZ it will be 2 5 man units in 2 BWs with 10 gretchen each. possibly with a painboy on bike keeping up.the BW assumign they do nto get blown up on the turn 2 when the orks disembark can also be used to block LOS as well.
But tall enough to LOS block every raised knife tip of grot without blocking MAN as wwell?
Also battlewagon has wheels with hollow hole in the bottom. That means it's very hard to prevent from feet of enemy drawing line to feet of your MAN/grot...
Grabbing grot and MAN from my collection and measuring...Needs to be over 4cm(hide grot) and less than 5cm(if it's bigger than that MAN is blocked as well).
Thinking on a list to best use now confirmed freebootas kulture with KMK's. I'll run a unit of 5 under a deathskulls KFF mek w/fixer uperz relic, since the unit(s) will have a huge target on their back's. Now what do I buff them with? Tankbustas could run up in trucks and shoot open topped with 4+ BS and re-roll but is this better than them being bad moon's shooting twice? (mobed up even more so) I could see Lootas doing well with a good number of shots roll and BS 4+, but again, is badmoons better? been also liking the idea of alot of warbikes (12+) rolling up and shooting with 4+ BSDDD and 6 shots each, would be very good against other horde armies... my god....
Apparently badmoons only hit 46.5% of the time, whereas Freebootas hit 50% of the time.
However, you need to proc the Freeboota effect first, whereas Bad Moons always get it.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Apparently badmoons only hit 46.5% of the time, whereas Freebootas hit 50% of the time.
However, you need to proc the Freeboota effect first, whereas Bad Moons always get it.
Surely Freebootas hit even more than that, it's 50% before even counting DDD.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Apparently badmoons only hit 46.5% of the time, whereas Freebootas hit 50% of the time. However, you need to proc the Freeboota effect first, whereas Bad Moons always get it.
Surely Freebootas hit even more than that, it's 50% before even counting DDD.
Well, yes they do have DDD which gives a bit more hits. I have no idea how to calculate that though. Perhaps I should have added a "without DDD" clause, because that does change the math a little.
Either way, Freebooters will hit more than Bad Moons if they get their buff procced.
It really boils down to how much you want Flash Gitz in your army
If you don't have Flash Gitz, go bad moons. If you do have Flash Gitz, go Freebootas because that's the only Kulture they can use, and putting them in a Bad Moons army would be a waste.
I made a thread on r/orks with all the shooting probability just prior to the codex release. I've been meaning to revisit it and account for how it would work for Deathskullz (it's a bit more nuanced and involved), and take a look at charging probability. I was going to post all of that here when I had that resolved but might of forgotten to finish the job.
If you want the tl;dr version so you don't have to read the post I made: a bad moonz unit with BS5+ gets you 0.465 expected hits with DDD and 0.54 expected hits with More Dakka. Tankbustas get 0.71 expected hits with DDD and 0.864 expected hits with More Dakka, when targeting a vehicle.
So with the new faq, I guess positioning your mek guns is really important. Since the wording on the fb kultur implies that the 24inch is from the unit that destoyed the enemy and not the enemy itself. Am I correct here?
DDD is a special case, as you aren't actually rerolling twice. You are generating another hit, which maybe rerolled as its technically not the same dice.
DDD just acts a 7/6 buff to hit.
So does rerolling 1s to hit, but it compounds as you get this buff on all the original rolls and any DDD generated rolls.
So 1/3*7/6*7/6=45.37%.
Freebooterz with their buff activated and DDD go to 58.333%.
Since Mek Guns activate the buff I'd suspect shooty lists want to go Freebooterz over Bad Moons, even though the Bad Moons can catch up to some extent with the shooting twice stratagem.
tneva82 wrote: 5 lootas is too few. If you go for lootas you go for 15 or none. When you have 15 of them they can literally one shot Magnus if you go first and there's pretty much nothing Tzeentch CAN do to stop it as you can always da jump them to new position(without interfering your hit chance) if Magnus has initially out of LOS.
However with 5 lootas strategems are too inefficient to be worth it. Without strategems mek guns pack better punch. With 15 lootas though you can pinpoint 30 S7 -1 D2 hits anywhere you want. With same point smasha guns you would get 11 hits which isn't as much of a punch against several targets. Of course against targets where better AP is more of a thing smasha gun helps.
edit: And yes I know that's lots of CP's(4 to be specific) so isn't best options always. But I'm just saying if you take bad moon lootas you take them in big and with intention of using those cp's as without cp's the unit kind of loses it's point. If you don't want to use cp(though more dakka can be situationally be dropped. It's not automatic) because you feel they are better off elsewhere then clearly no lootas to the army!
If you're going to be dumping that many CP into an alpha-strike, might as well use mob up to get them into a block of 25. Of course, you can also re-roll the number of shots if you only get 1, so the average is more like two and a third shots per loota, or around 58 shots ( before dakka, dakka, dakka!) for a big block of them. That might actually be enough dakka.
Ok, no point in mob up since all units get the +1 so I figure the best way to abuse the free-bootas kulture is to have as many good sized, shooting focused, units benefiting from the +1 to hit as possible in one phase. With the KMK's hopefully focus firing first and killing at least one unit, I now have 15 lootas, 20 tank bustas, 14 warbikes(2 with kustom shootas), and deff-killa all buffed on turn one... That, with everything T5 - 6 and/or back line under 5++ behind grots makes each unit a decent threat and hard to kill.
- 1,999 points orks - 15 CP
- Battalion detachment - + 5 CP (free-bootas) -
- HQ-
- DeffKilla War-trike - 120 pts
(Warlord/brutal but kunnin)
- Warboss on bike - 86 pts - PK/KS - 15 pts
(Killa-klaw)
- Big Mek on Bike - 81 pts - KFF/KS - 22 pts
- Troop -
- Grechin x 10 - 30 pts
- Grechin x 10 - 30 pts
- Grechin x 10 - 30 pts
- Elite -
- Tankbustas x 10 - 170 pts - 2 x Squigs - 20 pts
- Tankbustas x 10 - 170 pts - 2 x Squigs - 20 pts
- Fast Attack -
- Warbikers x 12 - 276 pts - Nob BC - 5 pts
- Heavy -
- KMK's x 5 - 300 pts
- Lootas x 15 - 255 pts
- Transports -
- Trucks - 59 pts - Rokit - 12 pts
- Trucks - 59 pts - Rokit - 12 pts
- Battalion detachment - + 5 CP (Deathskullz) -
- HQ -
- Lv 2 Weird boy - 62 pts
(Da-Jump/Fist of gork)
- Big mek - 55 pts - KFF - 20 pts
(da fixer uperz)
- Troop -
- Grechin x 10 - 30 pts
- Grechin x 10 - 30 pts
- Grechin x 10 - 30 pts
the_scotsman wrote: Also, for people wishing the front page had a unit-by-unit tactica, I've been writing up my own review/tier list based on the dozen or so games I've gotten in. since we're looking for a new thread home, we should probably start discussing our thoughts overall: (still WIP on units, I need to do the flyers, haven't done strats, relics or traits yet)
Spoiler:
Tier levels:
Auto-Include: Options that are so good at their job that you need to justify NOT taking them, rather than justifying TO take them. I will only hand out this rating to units that are so good, they bully out otherwise good/situational choices for performing their role (As an example from another codex, the "Alaitoc" -1 to hit craftworld trait compared to nearly every other craftworld)
Good: this is a choice that, in most circumstances, you will not see significant problems including in your list. In the case of a unit this would be one that if you switch army traits doesn't go from good to bad, though I will still give this rating to a unit that goes from good to amazing if you select the right army trait.
Situational: a choice that is really only good under a particular set of circumstances - for example, a unit that's only good in one or two particular army traits, or an army trait that's only good with one type of build.
Unviable: A unit that is really under-par no matter what you do for it. Again like the top tier I'm usually pretty charitable since I don't think purely from a tourney perspective (where, yeah, just take the Auto-include and good options...) but from a more holistic, average game meta angle.
Army Traits:
Blood Axes: Situational, bordering on Unviable.
In another book, this could be a good trait, but for the other options Orks have, I just do not know about the Blood Axes. We have an army that does not like to fight outside 18" and does not have great armor saves in general, and our melee units in general are not the ones doing the Falling Back. This trait might be interesting in a list that uses a lot of the charge-happy buggies (Skrapjets and Boosta-Blastas) along with some bully units like small squads of kommandos, stormboyz and warbikes. But it'd be an exercise in trying to make Blood Axes work rather than a real boon from the Kultur.
Snakebites: Situational.
I can think of only a couple reasons you might want Snakebites, and they really all rely on their warlord trait, or their fun little relic. They would probably be a bit better if Deff Skullz didn't exist, but...yeah...they do. If you're running Snakebites, my top pick would be a Battalion with a ton of Gretchins, a Big Mek with KFF warlord with the fearless grot trait, the second HQ being something mobile like maybe an index bikerboss with the Killa Klaw. Then soup it up with something that wants to take advantage of the best users of Grot Shields in the game, like maybe a loota-heavy Bad Moonz detachment. In a less competitive meta you might take some Killa Kanz in there too for morale immune distraction carnifexing.
Freebootas: Situational.
That situation is "I would like to use Flash Gitz" usually - because like Militarum Tempestus, maybe you're not super pleased with their trait, but if you have enough of them, it's better than nothing. The nice thing about the flash gitz is that really all you need to do to grab a detachment is to either bring 3 units of gretchin (no traits anyway) and 2 HQs, or 1 HQ and fill the rest of your mandatory slots for a spearhead with super-cheap mek gunz. Unfortunately for the soup-filled game that 40k is nowadays, Freebootas really suffer from wanting to be in as big a detachment as possible - you'll almost never trigger your single unit of flash gits with the two other heavy supports you brought along, but if your whole army were freebootas, that's gonna be pretty easy to make happen. So as a whole, Freebootas is quite good (Kultur and Warlord Trait in particular) but if you're playing a competitive meta where soup is the norm, you'll probably mostly leave it at home, and Flash Gitz along with it for the trouble you have to go through to get them a trait.
Bad Moonz: Situational.
The reason for this should probably be self-evident: Orks have a lot of purely melee-focused units, and if you're running a BM detachment, well, you better bring the shooters! And in particular, because Deffskullz and Freebootas exist, you should probably be looking into a big, hefty unit of something shooty like tankbustas or lootas in order to make good use of Showin' Off. Favorite units of the Bad Moonz are Megatrakk Scrapjets, Morkanauts and other "Kustom Mega" type units because they can juke those mortal wounds, Lootas, Shoota Boyz in big squads, and Tankbustas.
Goffs: Situational.
I only rank Goffs situational because it is purely a melee buff, so it heavily slants your army into just the melee-focused units. There's not much to say about it - it's just a really solid trait if you like your orks to hit hard and not shoot too much. It's also got a couple of nice cookies in the form of Ghazghul and Zagstruk, who while they might not be the best HQs orks have at least each provide something very different than their generic counterparts. Goffs and Bad Moonz alike only get a situational rating because they do heavily skew your army build.
Deffskullz: Good.
There are almost no units that don't like being Deffskullz, and several that are really amazingly good with this trait. Deffcoptas, Kustom Mega weapon users, Shokkjump Dragstas, heck even min Boyz squads start looking solid when you have a maximum of six free rerolls per unit per turn AND a 6++ AND obsec infantry. What a trait! It does tend to push your build towards being MSU (or having one weapon you REALLY care about in a unit like a power klaw, tankbusta bomb or rokkit) but it's got so many other cookies that you really can't go wrong picking this trait.
Evil Sunz: Good.
Another one that's just in general good, and in particular really really amazing. Footsloggers, fast movers, deep strikers and pretty much any unit type likes being able to move fast, and the ubiquity of Assault weapons in the ork ranged arsenal makes the last bit of the tactic that much more wonderful. 40k despite the heavily kill-focused discussion online does very much hinge heavily on movement - being able to be where you want to be is still a huge advantage. Evil Sunz will most likely be making at least somewhat of an appearance in every tournament list we see going forward because holy moly are they good at deep strike. I definitely wouldn't call this trait an auto-include, but it does kind of put the bully on some other traits like Blood Axes and Goffs where you wonder if the additional damage is worth losing the sheer reliability that Evil Sunz provides at getting into combat.
Unit-By-Unit tactica
HQ
Warboss: Situational
The warboss took a hefty points hit from index to codex, to the point where it's very tough to justify taking him over the index warboss on warbike, who costs a paltry handful more points for what you get out of him - 9" of additional movement and 6 S5 AP- shooting attacks. He is only not ranked "unviable" because many tournaments and events do not allow the index - meaning he's your only option for Waaagh on infantry. And even then, there is the warlord trait that grants that...
Warboss on Bike (Index): Auto-include
The bikeboss avoids being superseded by the new Deffkilla for one simple reason: He can take a power klaw, which can become the Killa Klaw. When you give a warbike the Killa Klaw and the Fists of Gork psychic power, you slide right into "one round KO's an imperial knight castellan" territory. All that and he also gives infantry the Waaagh ability? if your area allows the index, this guy is a vital tool that you have to justify not having.
Weirdboy: Auto-Include
Orks have some psychic powers that are Hard. To. Pass. Up. Fists of Gork, Da Jump, and in certain circumstances Warpath are absolutely top tier psychic powers, and Weirdboyz are a wonderful mix of cheap and extraordinarily reliable psykers, at least when it comes to a first cast in a crowd of orks. I think I would be very surprised to see a tournament ork list without at least one weirdboy, and on several occasions I have made use of the 1cp Warphead stratagem to make sure my Weirdboyz had all three of the important spells on them for a game.
Big Mek (index): Situational
Index big meks are the cheapest KFF platforms, and the situation where they shine is when you don't need a bike to keep up with your army. In an index-allowed setting with a footslogging army, a big mek might be the best choice.
Big Mek on Bike (index): Good
In most circumstances throwing this guy into your army is not a bad idea. He can keep up with most things, he's got character protection, and in combat he's not a terrible slouch either if you throw him a melee weapon. The biker mek is a good candidate if you wan to bring some of the warlord traits and auras that would be a bit wasted on a character you're going to fling haphazardly into combat, like say the Evil Sunz fall back and charge aura trait, or the Snakebites' squigbomb.
Big Mek in Mega Armor: Situational edging on Unviable
Do you have a footslogging army? And you NEED a KFF? And you don't want a Morkanaut? And the index is not allowed? Welllllllllllll....I guess take a mega-mek. Being the slowest thing in the codex while carrying an aura that requires you to keep up with stuff is not a good combo.
Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun: Situational
Are you running a shooty detachment and you just need to fill an HQ slot? Then this guy's not so bad. He's roughly equivalent to a KMK who pays a few points for being a Character, and he's nice for standing next to a couple stationary vehicles to repair them. I would still usually take 2 Weirdboyz as my HQs for my shooty detachment, or a KFF toting character of some sort.
Named characters will be rated with the assumption that you will already be taking their clan kultur, not "as a whole". So think "if I am already running Goffs, should I be taking Ghazghkull" not "Is it worth taking Goffs just to get Ghazghkull".
Kaptin Badrukk: Situational
Again as with the SAG this guy is just kind of meh. Doesn't put out a ton of damage. Competes with among our best units. Aura only works outside a transport and is nothing to write home about. I'd definitely never throw him in outside a Freebootas detachment, and I'd only put him in one if you had minimum 10 flash gits for him to buff.
Ghazghull: Good
Ghaz is spendy, but he is one heck of a beatstick if you deliver him up the field. I would say that a ride of some sort is mandatory for ol ghazzy, I'd probably throw him in a Bonebreaka with some nobz. You can really make the combat buffs stack up between ghaz, warpath, Skarboyz, and a waaagh banner - I'd be hard pressed to come up with a goff build that didn't bring the big boy along.
Zagstruk: Situational
Hey, he's a codex-legal character that moves fast and has a power klaw, so that's something. Totally eclipsed by the Killa Klaw bikeboss if you can take him. As an added bonus he's just randomly got a supa-cybork body!
Snikrot: Good.
He's a big choppa warboss that's got a captain aura and deep strikes - if you're taking Blood Axes, I'm sold. That is a big if though, since Blood Axes themselves arent amazing.
Grotsnik: Unviable
Doesn't fill up an HQ slot, doesn't do much that's very different from a regular dok, and his signature rule can be a negative...Kind of a head scratcher. If you're playing Deffskullz, take better HQs.
Zhardsnark: Good
Throwing him in because it seems like many people bring him, and Zhardsnark is actually quite tasty! Particularly in an Evil Sunz brigade, the trio of Zhard, Killa Klawboss, and Deffkilla Wartrike gives you a pretty nasty CCHQ squad. Zhard's Pain Klaw does more damage than any upfront HQ other than the Killa Klawboss, and even then he only gets beaten out by .5 damage on average.
Troops:
Gretchins: Auto-Include
Our stratagems are good. To use stratagems we need CPs. To generate CPs, gretchins are over twice as efficient as boyz - so there you go! As a bonus, Grot Shields is incredibly powerful as stratagems go. I don't think it's controversial to say that there will be no top table ork list without gretchins in the codex.
Boyz: Situational
Ah boyz, how far you have fallen. From "the only decent thing in the index" to "good in some circumstances, lackluster in many others." Ork boyz are a very solid chaff clearing unit if you can deliver them to combat while they are still over 20 models in the unit - and therein lies the struggle. When transported, you can only ever make their unit 20 models, and when footslogging, they have a bad habit of getting filled with lasers and bullets. The most obvious and common tool for getting them where they're going is the "Da Jump" psychic power, and the Tellyporta deep strike stratagem. Of course, prior to the codex the other preferred method to get 30 boyz into combat unmolested was to start with about 120 - but that gets a bit spendy in the codex. As a MSU unit, they definitely leave something to be desired - for the same midstrength combat role, nobz are more efficient to transport, and shoota boyz with their 5+ BS tend to be shockingly lackluster in terms of damage output. I think almost all lists will be taking at least one big 30-blob to act as a deep striking distraction, but I doubt the trend of all-boyz lists will be continuing.
OK. So maybe you're in a casual meta, and maybe you just want to play your ork boyz, and a single da jumped/tellyported blob into the enemy's face as a distraction just ain't doing it for you. You don't care if they win Nova for you, you just want an ork army with a lot of boyz.
For footsloggers, I would definitely go Goffs. The ability to run boyz as Skarboyz makes them significantly better at killing things, and access to Ghazzy's aura makes a footslogging horde scary, even if they lose a lot of boyz going in. Bring as many min gretchin squads as you can, and hard dedicate any CP that didn't go to making skarboyz to Endless Green Tide and Grot Shield stratagems to keep your horde ticking. The alternative arrangement I'd recommend would be Snakebites, 'Ard Boyz stratagem, and advancing up the field with some morale-immune Killa Kanz using loot it any time one of them bites the dust. In general, spend your CP on keeping the horde alive, and trust that buffed up boyz will do enough damage when they get there to wipe out what you come across.
If you're a fan of the ol' trukk boyz, I would definitely reach for Deffskullz. Those rerolls make the single Tankbusta bomb, Rokkit, and power klaw in the minimum squad pack that much more punch, and they actually become worth the relatively hefty 160-ish point pricetag if they get to reroll pretty much everything of consequence they do. Not super worth it, but this is the "I like boyz" section.
Elites:
Nobz: Good
Nobz can do a variety of things, and at their new points cost and with their new options, they are quite the mid-cost all rounder! It's almost always worthwhile to give these guys a Trukk, and stick a couple ammo runts with them to take the fall if the trukk gets blown up. If you do get a chance to use Loot It on them you get what is essentially a 14ppm Primaris Reiver. For weaponry, Big Choppas and double choppas seem to be the preferred loadouts - either for the S7 Ap-1 D2 anti elite combat, or just spamming tons of S5 AP- for chopping chaff. Combi weapons, power klaws and killsaws do seem to be a little bit spendy for what you get.
Nob with Waagh Banner: Good
There are few lists where including a +1WS aura is not at least useful. Obviously the counterexample is a shooting list, in which case yeah leave him at home. The waaagh nob has two big downsides: he doesn't actually have the power klaw modeled on him, so he has to rely on slapping enemies about the face with his huge, long, rock-hard pole, which is not quite as impactful even if it does get style points. Also, he's an elite rather than an HQ so he doesn't make CPs happen, which you like to see for an aura-granting character. But I'd say he's still generally good, and in a few situations like footslogging hordes an auto-include.
Burna Boyz: Unviable
I can't really come up with a situation where these guys are useful. Orks really aren't that bad at killing chaff models, and burna boyz are in this weird spot where they're kind of anti horde, kind of anti elite, and kind of way too squishy for their point cost. I was really hoping we'd get a stratagem like kill team where you treat their burnas as D6 shots for a CP, but unfortunately, no dice. The best situation for burnas IMO would be 4x burnas, 1x Spanna with KMB in a Deffskullz detachment, but that's mostly just to get the KMB on the field. And if you want that you can always take a -
Mek: Situational
Deffskullz mek with a KMB (index wargear for some positively goofy reason) is quite a good little model. I'd say you'd have a hard time finding a solid niche for one of these guys outside of deffskullz however - maybe Bad Moonz, maybe Freebootas, but really its the wall of rerolls from Deffskulls that makes him half-decent. If you're limited to Codex wargear only...then skip him.
Meganobz: Good
Manz got price drops in every orifice from the index to codex, and now they're positively dripping with value. Their weapons went down, their bodies went down, their transports went down, and they gained some absolutely bonkers stratagems in the Tellypora Pad (they even get mileage out of their frickin' power level going down in Matched!) and the Loot It strat. Evil Sunz Meganobz popping out of deep strike are the absolute business, and the jury's still out as to whether they or triple deff dreads are the preferred method to deliver a big scary murder party to your opponent's heavy armor.
Kommandos: Good
Kommandos have always been a relatively simple unit in 8th, and they gained in a couple areas - getting a free tankbusta bomb per 5, getting a bonus to wound enemy units in cover, and benefitting from the tweaked 'ere we go. When you look at Evil Sunz, they go from "good" to almost "auto-include" particularly if you play in an area where the index is allowed, and they still get their free burna.
Nobz on Warbikes: Unviable
Given how easily orks have access to deep strike now, the ability to speedily deliver hard hitting weaponry is better done for cheaper and more durably by units like meganobz, bikers with character protection, and Deff Dreads. 38ppm base is just incredibly high. If you wanted to use nob bikers, the best loadout might be something like Big Choppa/Choppa or Big Choppa/Power Stabba to make them some kind of elite hunter.
Painboy: Situational
The painboy still struggles a bit with the problem of justifying his cost while being 65 points. You have to save/heal a BUNCH of wounds before he's worth just buying more models. If you aren't going the smashboss route, the painboy can wield the Killa Klaw almost as well as a warboss, giving him nasty unexpected punch, but his durability is low so you'd be pretty unhappy using him as a dedicated cc character. If you're running footslogging boyz, you may as well throw one in unless you're going snakebites, who don't stack with his buff.
Runtherd: Situational, nearly Unviable
Similar to the painboy, you have to run a lot of gretchins to make runtherds a useful investment, since they cost almost as much as a whole replacement squad of gretchins for the squad you lost because he wasn't there to stop them running away. Also, in the codex he doesn't even help you fill elite slots in a brigade. When you do take him, it's generally for the Squig Hound morale save and not for the reroll 1s in the fight phase - 8% more Strength 2 melee hits is rarely going to make a huge difference.
Tankbustas: Good, nearly Auto-Include
Surprise Surprise, one of our best units when given no changes and tossed great stratagems and kultur rules is still one of our best units. Bustas make a wonderful glass cannon shooting unit, and can work well with a variety of different kulturs: Freebootas boosts their ballistic skill, Deffskullz makes sure those womp-womp squig bomb 1s to hit don't happen, Bad Moonz lets them serve as a potent suicide unit shooting twice, even Evil Sunz lets them scream around the battlefield in an advancing trukk blowing things away. Keep in mind their synergy with the Stikkbomb 1cp stratagem to solidly double their damage output when they can get within 6" of their target.
Fast Attack
Boomdakka Snazzwagon: Unviable
The Snazzwagon would nearly squeak into situational territory if it weren't for an extremely similar unit that pretty much does what it does but much, MUCH better: the Dakkajet. Unfortunate that the "Mek Speshul" uses the old Index profile for the Snazzgun and not the new, much improved codex version, which would have given the Snazzwagon a more definite role as an elite hunter. It's cheap enough that it's not an offensive burden on your list to include one, but you really should only do so for preference to the model: Dakkajets pretty much beat this guy out in every category, and they're still not what you would call outstanding.
Deffcoptas: Situational
If you're in an index environment, Deffcoptas are arguably the best toters of the much-feared Deffskullz Kustom Mega Blasta around. When it's got a reroll to hit, wound, and damage, KMBs are a force to be reckoned with. For everyone else, Deffcoptas are not quite damaging enough to be a viable attack unit, not quite durable enough to be properly annoying, not quite cheap enough to be a good throwaway unit and not quite useful enough to include in a list. They suffer from having a lot of competitition and paying for weapons that other units use much more effectively (the problem with pretty much any non-gretchin, non-tankbusta rokkit unit). And if you want big shootas...don't...want that? S5 AP- 1D is pretty terrible in 8th, theres no reason to spam it.
Kustom Boosta-Blasta: Good
So you say you want to kill infantry with one of the new buggies, well, now we're talking! The KBB combines a wonderfully reliable quad-burna anti chaff tool with a solid elite/light armor hunting weapon and a cute little mortal wound ram ability for a discount price. The KBB seems to be the only one of the new buggies that really hit on what GW was going for with them: All-rounders that aren't amazing at anything but pay a relatively cheap price for what you can get, so when you have a game where one of their abilities comes up clutch they feel really valuable. Decent with any shooty kultur or Evil Sunz as one of the few units that really makes good use of the Drive-By Krumpin stratagem.
Megatrakk Skrapjet: Good
Arguably the best of the new buggies because of its relative specialization in the realm of anti-tank. Everything it does, barring 4 big shootas, is anti tank focused, and the big shootas have such long range it's pretty tough to end up in a situation where they can't find a target. Also the best at melee of all the buggies thanks to the KBB's mortal wound ability and the excellent nose cone weapon. Again, this vehicle is nice in any shooting kultur, particularly Freebootas where its various abilities make it quite gifted at going first and finishing off a vulnerable target to trigger everybody's +1 to hit. Also good for Evil Sunz as they can offset its natural slowness and get it to its optimal use case of shoot-then-charge a vehicle faster.
Ruckatrukk Squigbuggy: Unviable
Not much to say here. GW dun goofed with the stats on this one. Maybe we should take the weakest buggy, worse against pretty much every target you can think of than the KBB, and inexplicably make it 40% MORE expensive. Just...run this thing as a second skrapjet or something.
Shokkjump Dragsta: Good
Honestly the biggest downside to the Shokkjump is the existence of the Skrapjet. Even so, it provides good, reliable anti-tank firepower, and you won't be sad putting one in your list. Best with the Bad Moonz kultur since the rerolls of 1 both help it avoid mortal wounding itself and are very likely to hit when you re-roll them. Funny with the Evil Sunz kultur because it'll be jumping all over the place, but they're so crazy mobile in the first place with evil sunz you rarely make more distance than you ordinarily would.
Stormboyz: Situational
They got a bit of a nerf from the codex, but they also got native deep strike which is quite good. Now the question is "Stormboyz or Kommandos" since they're very close in role and price, and I think the best choice if you're filling a brigade might actually be "por que no los dos" because they fill different slots and they're both super cheap. In an either or situation where the index is at play, the free tankbusta bomb, cover rules, and two burnas give the Kommandos the edge over stormboyz in most circumstances.
Warbikes: Situational
Less terrible than they were! But still they just barely manage to make "mediocre." Warbikes in the evil sunz kultur can reliably get into combat turn 1, making them a solid antichaff tool for the points cost. Boyz are roughly twice as effective at the role if you can Da Jump or deep strike them in, and fill troops slots, which is most likely why you won't see a ton of Warbikes hitting the field, but at this point they're not offensive to use and can exert a lot of board control after their initial hit. It is also worth noting that they're about 25% more durable per point than Boyz against the kinds of low strength AP- weapons that common chaff units tend to have. The problem comes when your opponent starts putting multidamage weapons into them, where they crumple extremely quickly.
Heavy Support
Battlewagons: Good, Gunwagons: Unviable, Bonebreakas: Good
It's back baby! With a substantial buff to the Deffrolla and a huge price drop, melee-focused battlewagons got pretty awesome. The big choice is between Battlewagon and Bonebreaka: Gunwagons essentially pay 20 points for the ability to fire a 15-point gun twice...no thanks. The big choice is: Does what I transport care about shooting out before I charge? If it doesn't, the bonebreaka is fully worth the extra 20 points for more deffrolly goodness. If it does, a Battlewagon is cheaper and nearly as strong in combat. Deepstriking a battlewagon is a wonderful way to get units like nobz, meganobz, Tankbustas or any other high value infantry units into combat, though you do have to consider that they'll realistically only be into combat turn 3. If you just opt into running the wagon at the enemy, remember that it'll almost certainly be a priority target, and try to make sure it's under a KFF aura.
Deff Dreads: Good
Another major benefactor of codex buffs and stratagems, Deff Dreads have gone from utterly unviable to a real scary deep strike threat. 3 deff dreads strike for 2CP, giving you an absurdly reliable threat for your Evil Sunz army. Alternatively, the Deffskulls have the excellent Klaw/Saw/Saw/KMB build which does similar things to an identically armed Deffkopta but also shreds things in close combat. Every codex we have the age-old Kanz or Dreads debate, and in this one, Dreads definitely win out.
Killa Kanz: Situational
No kulturs, morale struggles and a buffed up Deff Dread make Killa Kanz an unfortunately fiddly investment. If you do like the Kan Wall idea still, I would recommend taking them in a footslogging list with Snakebites Kultur, using a KFF big mek with the special Snakebites warlord trait. Put a nice layer of Gretchins in front, Boyz in back, Kanz near the boyz, and you can use Loot It every time a kan gets popped to up the armor save of your boyz - makes for a nicely defensive greentide list. Otherwise, there's little 2 kanz provide that 1 deff dread doesn't do better.
Morkanaut: Situational
Morkanauts go up in value when you're in an environment where the index isn't allowed, ruling out regular and biker big meks. Their anti-tank firepower isn't exactly bad, but they pay a lot of points for their somewhat mediocre heavy melee, which they likely won't get to use because they're gonna get shot at for giving your army an invuln save. There's a lot of competition in the ork roster for best anti-heavy vehicle firepower, and Morkanauts are not the best at that job by any means. Morkanauts really like being Bad Moonz in particular because it helps you avoid those self-inflicted mortal wounds.
Gorkanaut: Situational
Gorkanauts have a bit more of a general niche of melee beatmonster, particularly with Goffs kultur since they generate multiple hits with a single roll of a 6 in close combat. They can handily deep strike with a minimum size squad of meganobz, or nobz+an ammo runt for an extra follow up punch. They do compete with the triple deff dread squad for a similar role, but you won't necessarily be sad if you put them into that role. They tend to be a bullet sponge if they are not deep struck - if you want to walk a naut, make it a morka so it might survive a bit longer against the inevitable high-AP firepower.
Mek Gunz may seem to have been given a nerf with the loss of the grot crew and no kultur, but Smasha Gunz received a price reduction and a doubling of firepower making them AMAZINGLY good at upfront anti tank firepower. You really have to work to figure out a good reason NOT to include Smasha gunz and Trakktor kannons in your list now, they're just incredible for dealing with many things orks ordinarily struggle with. These will be a staple of competitive ork lists until they get a nerf, period.
Flash Gitz: Situational
Flash Gitz are a very fun unit aesthetically and potentially in-game with their "shoot again on sixes" rule, but they can be very awkward to fit into a list and you really want to structure your army around them. Ideally, about half or more of your list should be Freebootas to see any really impactful benefit out of their kultur, and there's not a great reason to include Flash Gitz over their direct competition, Lootas, if the lootas are receiving a shooting kultur and the gitz are not. In a direct mano-a-mano competition, Gitz get a bunch of extras over lootas for free - an extra +1 to hit on 3 shots, the Ammo runt, Gun Crazy Show-Offs, 4+ armor, decent melee stats - while still dishing very comparable damage out, but Lootas can easily sit in the back next to a mek gun (for loot it! when it dies) and behind a squad of gretchin (for grot shields) and just cheerily grind their points back over a turn or two. Would I rank either unit as situational? No, they warp your list choices much more than just throwing more Smasha Gunz at the problem. Are either bad if you do put in the work to support them properly? No, they tend to be fine. I like the gitz myself because when you do get them really going in a transport parked midfield with the +1 to hit they just start TEARING through enemy units, but the lootas definitely are more consistent.
Lootas: Situational
See above. You probably want Bad Moonz (Because shoot twice is very nice on that turn when you rolled 3 shots for your Deffguns) and you definitely want bare minimum a unit of gretchins to stand in front and Grot Shield them from incoming enemy fire. Deffskullz can also work with min squads, getting the rerolls to hit and wound, but I think Bad Moonz is really where it's at for lootas. Only one squad can get grot shielded after all, so you want that squad to be as big as it can be, and that puts you in the perfect spot for getting that 3 on your number of shots, popping More Dakka and Showin' off and letting it rip.
That's a really, really nice breakdown and hard to find fault with any of that.
So is double Weirdboy and 3x 10 grots going to become the new Ork loyal 32?
DDD is adding extra dice, which you can reroll because they have not been rerolled yet.
Thats why you are "rerolling twice" and why you should always Bad Moonz reroll any 1s before tossing in extra DDD dice, because the rerolls from the initial toss of dice can still generate more shots, while the extra DDD hits and rerolls cannot.
What are your thoughts on trying to fill out a single-clan brigade as opposed to a couple of battalions and more specialised detachments like spearheads each with the optimal clan?
I guess there really is nothing stopping us from running a gak ton of Grots with something powerful behind them like MANZ, Flashgitz or Lootas just soaking up the firepower and being free to do what they want.
Or 3 battle wagons, 3 bonebreakers and 90 Orks and literally just running the opponent over.
Ha, honestly I forgot it. I'm about to head to bed right now and tomorrow morning I'll comb through, see if there are any units I missed, add the section on the flyers and put up a post-FAQ thread that will then be updated with more consensus opinions. Many units, like 'Nauts, painboyz and others I'm judging off of not having tried them yet, so I'd be open to other peoples assessments. Also I think there are a few things from the FAQ I need to change.
Ha, honestly I forgot it. I'm about to head to bed right now and tomorrow morning I'll comb through, see if there are any units I missed, add the section on the flyers and put up a post-FAQ thread that will then be updated with more consensus opinions. Many units, like 'Nauts, painboyz and others I'm judging off of not having tried them yet, so I'd be open to other peoples assessments. Also I think there are a few things from the FAQ I need to change.
don’t forget painboy on bike...and the waagh banner nob description on no klaw changes with the faq. (And index kommandoes can takes bc nob or nob without powerklaw which is useful.) Overall I like the list.
Still kinda annoyed gw didn’t allow the bc kommando nob or kmb Mek when we have models for them.
While tankbustas as a unit are better they somehow made pistols and tank hammers worse. Like just ignore the options bad.
I think a lot of variety in lists depends heavily on the index
Warboss on bike
Mek on bike
Painboy on bike
Kommandos
Lobba (depending on if used the kultur rules)
Zhardsnark
Big Mek
Deffkoptas
All of the above are competitive due to the index (or forgeworld for zhardsnark)
No Mek guns is surprising
And lootas not tabkbustas isn’t that surprising
gungo wrote: I think a lot of variety in lists depends heavily on the index
Warboss on bike
Mek on bike
Painboy on bike
Kommandos
Lobba (depending on if used the kultur rules)
Zhardsnark
Big Mek
Deffkoptas
All of the above are competitive due to the index (or forgeworld for zhardsnark)
No Mek guns is surprising
And lootas not tabkbustas isn’t that surprising
Maybe they were limited on what models they had? Smasha guns weren't good before so having them painted and ready might be bit hard.
And I was surprised no tank bustas and instead lootas. With all the knights out there thought tank bustas would be popular.
Everyone's been talking about the 25 Lootas. TBH this is not surprising if you've been following the podcast chatter. You can even watch Charles play his list vs Colin Sherman from Best in Faction podcast on twitch.
man...I really wish passengers could take strats...pulling a drive-by with a trukk full of tankbustas, and dropping off a crate full of tankbusta bombs would've been great
Wow, I don't see lootas as stronger than tankbustas or mek guns. Considering a smasha is less than the price of 2 lootas, that seems a little hard to swallow.
But then again, with the tweak to the grot stratagem, my big blob of blood axe lootas are going to be really annoying to kill.
I knew I picked up 25 lootas for a reason...just didn't think the reason was winning games.
Jidmah wrote: Sorry guys, much non-ork related stuff going on right now, I'll try to get the new thread up by today.
@scotsman, can you PM me your analysis so it doesn't get lost?
Unacceptable, life must take a back seat to orks. Also expect a PM from me, I'll give you a "orks in the meta" section over the next few weeks/months if you want it.
Wow, I don't see lootas as stronger than tankbustas or mek guns. Considering a smasha is less than the price of 2 lootas, that seems a little hard to swallow.
But then again, with the tweak to the grot stratagem, my big blob of blood axe lootas are going to be really annoying to kill.
I knew I picked up 25 lootas for a reason...just didn't think the reason was winning games.
It's the entire puzzle, not just the Loota. This is a "build around" strategy. You need 15+ command points to be effective (minimum 4 CP a turn, double shoot and 5+ DDD), so triple battalion, and you need the 40-60 grots to protect them, you need the weirdboyz to da jump them, and you need to have them mob up. You'll probably need the boyz to screen as well. There's a reason both these lists look similar, is because almost 1000 points is dedicated directly to the 25 lootas.
Wow, I don't see lootas as stronger than tankbustas or mek guns. Considering a smasha is less than the price of 2 lootas, that seems a little hard to swallow.
But then again, with the tweak to the grot stratagem, my big blob of blood axe lootas are going to be really annoying to kill.
I knew I picked up 25 lootas for a reason...just didn't think the reason was winning games.
Mek guns are good but what lootas can do:
A) ddd5 with reroll 1's
B) shoot twice
C) grot screen makes them hard to remove
D) da jump ensures if board has los blocker you are safe from shooting t1
It takes lots of support but is tough unit that pumps about 30(iirc) hits in average.
If knights weren't so common i would expect these for sure. With knights i thought at least some would take tank bustas rather than lootas. Or both
Dat Loota Star sounds very tempting on paper, but alas I don't have any nor do I particularly like Loota models (or Gretchin for that matter), so there's a bit of an obstacle to start gearing towards that build.
But it's great to know that there's an absolute ballbuster of a build around if I happen to run into an annoying list.
I'm disappointed about the FAQ since GW nerfed my favorite stratagem, the Fight Twice combo. They basically killed it, unless it's against something with a lot of wounds and very little or no combat abilities that you really want to kill.
Glad about the Goffs trait though, made no sense before as it was the weakest version of an already existing generic trait.
I killed a knight castellan with 3+ invul save in 1 turn with 25 bad moon Lootaz, in fact shooting twice was overkill... I was almost tempted to leave it on 7 wounds after the first shot and aim at something else!
BAN wrote: I killed a knight castellan with 3+ invul save in 1 turn with 25 bad moon Lootaz, in fact shooting twice was overkill... I was almost tempted to leave it on 7 wounds after the first shot and aim at something else!
Well that's serious luck. 15 bm loota averages 10 wounds. With show off. 25 would be 16 wounds or so. With shoot twice. Vs 4++. Vs 3++ 25 averages 12. So you more than tripled average output before show off
CthuluIsSpy wrote: It really boils down to how much you want Flash Gitz in your army
If you don't have Flash Gitz, go bad moons.
If you do have Flash Gitz, go Freebootas because that's the only Kulture they can use, and putting them in a Bad Moons army would be a waste.
But Flash gits do have a neat trick with Bad moons - double shooting stratagem makes "gun show-offs" proc a bit more reliably, since you roll a D6 for it every time a unit completes shooting.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: It really boils down to how much you want Flash Gitz in your army
If you don't have Flash Gitz, go bad moons.
If you do have Flash Gitz, go Freebootas because that's the only Kulture they can use, and putting them in a Bad Moons army would be a waste.
But Flash gits do have a neat trick with Bad moons - double shooting stratagem makes "gun show-offs" proc a bit more reliably, since you roll a D6 for it every time a unit completes shooting.
You can't use that on Flash Gitz. Flash Gitz are permanently locked to the Freebootas kultur.
Wow, I don't see lootas as stronger than tankbustas or mek guns. Considering a smasha is less than the price of 2 lootas, that seems a little hard to swallow.
But then again, with the tweak to the grot stratagem, my big blob of blood axe lootas are going to be really annoying to kill.
I knew I picked up 25 lootas for a reason...just didn't think the reason was winning games.
The problem with tank bustas is they are a throw away unit. Once deepstruck/da jump to get then into thier short range and after you “show off” they are dead points. I don’t even use them in my list because it’s a lot of points for a suicide unit...i expected lootas to be good because of the stacked buffs and using a command point to reroll that 1 and the long range ability to keep them out of harms way but I didn’t expect them to be the center of a list especially pushing out Mek guns which are really good right now. Everything else I figured boy screen killers, bike bosses, kommandos, grots, wierdboyz. That’s still the staple of most lists...
Unfortunately I only have 10 current lootas Models and have no intention of owning more then 15 of them to chase a gimmick list that will get points adjusted in 6 months if its to brutal.
28" or so is plenty of range generally though. 31 with advance since you can ignore that -1 to hit with more dakka. So you still have that grot screen to cover you
I play deffskulls and have a load of lootas, since they are a stereotypical DS unit. Any advice on actually making them worthwhile? Seems like only bad moon lootas are likely to be worth it.
Deffskulls are torn between the loota need to be in a big mob (more efficient to spend stratagems, such as rerolling the number of shots and grot shields) and the deffskull incentives to be in small units. Not as bad as ES or Goff ones at least.
Hi,
If anyone is interested in wasting a bit of time by making some suggestions they have on list building. I’ve a 2000pt list for tonight vs. DE.
I know my opponent likes triple ravagers, a single flier and a horde of grotesques supported by pain engines and he enjoys the agent of vect stratagem. Otherwise, his list is unknown but will likely contain variety rather than spam and could contain almost anything.
We don’t mind limited and sensible proxies e.g. all my choppa boyz = shoota boyz, or all boyz with black shirts are stormboyz. Lobbas are kannons etc
Things i have to choose from:
HQ A warboss on foot, 1 on bike and 1 in megaamour
Big mek on foot and big mek with shokk attack x2.
2 x wierdboy
Snikrot
Troops. 30 red boyz, 30 black boyz, 30 brown boyz. (all slugga choppa). 10 rogue trader era boyz (metal)
30 gretchin splitable to squads of 10
Heavy support 1 battlewagon
5 lobbas
3 mek gunz (built as traktor from 7th ed)
5 flash gitz
3 killa kanz (happy to proxy as deffdreads)
1 deff dread
12 lootas
No fliers 3 trukks
1 gargantuan squiggoth
1 stompa
Its a friendly game to try out some interesting ork combos. I fancy taking a brigade to maximise on CPs and get more of a feel of what units can do, but at the same time i don’t want to just remove my models from the table all evening without forcing him to do the same! This was my experience against a couple of their pre-nerf Ynnari lists.
I was going to try freebootas or badmoons to help with geting shots on target and I did whole evil sunz thing last time.
This is what i came up with: Brigade 15CP
Warboss on bike with killa klaw, brutal but kunnin
2x weirdboy (warpath + dajump)
28 boyz + nob with kustom shoota
29 boyz + nob with kustom shoota
9 boyz + nob with kustom shoota
3x 10 gretchin
Mek
Painboy
10 tank bustas + bomb squigs
2 x single deffkoptas with rokkits
Megatrukk scrapjet
Battlewagon with deffrolla + ardcase
3 x deffdreads 3 saw 1 klaw
10 lootas
3 x smasha kannons
I’ll put the tank bustas in the BW and chase down ravagers with it, deffdreads in telporta ramming speed and set the cat amongst the pidgeons. Mob up 10 boyz to 30 to da jump and greentide. Koptas run interference. Mek + gretchin sit with lootas + mek gunz, gretchin shield lootas/mek gunz depending on his target priority. Scrapjet is a new model so i’d like to play with it =)
tneva82 wrote: Well with msu rolling 1 is less of a worry as you average better to 2 per guy
With a big mob you can just use a command point to reroll when you get 1 shot with deffguns. And while more rolls gets you closer to average, more randomness is good as often as it is bad.
I still don't understand how grot shield Works, if they must be closer to the enemy than boyz and still 6'' to the boyz, you need to waste a jump just to defend boyz, and this do not protect you from Turn 1 rape cuz enemy is far away.
Kebabcito wrote: I still don't understand how grot shield Works, if they must be closer to the enemy than boyz and still 6'' to the boyz, you need to waste a jump just to defend boyz, and this do not protect you from Turn 1 rape cuz enemy is far away.
I think the wording might have you messed up here.
The Gretchins must be 6" away from the boyz
and the unit shooting at the boyz must be closer to the gretchins, than the boyz.
So let's say I have a unit of fire warriors, and I want to shoot boyz 30" away. There's a unit of gretchins standing right in front of the boyz, 27" away. Those gretchins can be used for Grot Shield.
Blackie wrote: I'm disappointed about the FAQ since GW nerfed my favorite stratagem, the Fight Twice combo. They basically killed it, unless it's against something with a lot of wounds and very little or no combat abilities that you really want to kill.
Glad about the Goffs trait though, made no sense before as it was the weakest version of an already existing generic trait.
Blackie wrote: I'm disappointed about the FAQ since GW nerfed my favorite stratagem, the Fight Twice combo. They basically killed it, unless it's against something with a lot of wounds and very little or no combat abilities that you really want to kill.
Glad about the Goffs trait though, made no sense before as it was the weakest version of an already existing generic trait.
How did they nerf it?
They made it the same as all the other fight again stratagems, you now can only use it at the end of the phase. Before you could charge with two units, fight with one, activate the stratagem and fight again with unit A. Now you have to wait for the enemy to hit you back first.
Also to whoever is writing the tactica, i saw you mention the Loot it + MANZ combo, that got errata'd to no longer be possible.
A nice extra feature when using the DDD5+ stratagem on lootas is that you can move them without penalty to hit. This is nice if you need to move some of them to get LOS.
Kebabcito wrote: I still don't understand how grot shield Works, if they must be closer to the enemy than boyz and still 6'' to the boyz, you need to waste a jump just to defend boyz, and this do not protect you from Turn 1 rape cuz enemy is far away.
I think the wording might have you messed up here.
The Gretchins must be 6" away from the boyz
and the unit shooting at the boyz must be closer to the gretchins, than the boyz.
So let's say I have a unit of fire warriors, and I want to shoot boyz 30" away. There's a unit of gretchins standing right in front of the boyz, 27" away. Those gretchins can be used for Grot Shield.
Oh man, that's a completely different scenario, i'm not a native english speaker so misunderstood it, thanks.
So grots are indeed a CP machine and a very strong unit
Perfect Organism wrote: I play deffskulls and have a load of lootas, since they are a stereotypical DS unit. Any advice on actually making them worthwhile? Seems like only bad moon lootas are likely to be worth it.
Deffskulls are torn between the loota need to be in a big mob (more efficient to spend stratagems, such as rerolling the number of shots and grot shields) and the deffskull incentives to be in small units. Not as bad as ES or Goff ones at least.
Deffskulls have the "Wreckers" stratagem though to re-roll to wound on your loota mobs though. Not as awesome as shooting again, but still decent.
If you have enough models, you could also do 15+10+10 and mob up twice by turn 2 for 35 lootas
BaconCatBug wrote: Don't forget to save your Command Re-roll to try and get a 3 on the Deffguns!
Yeah, I feel like the Loota strategy is going to be one of those extremely luck-dependent shticks that's going to be very misleadingly strong through event results.
We'll see the guy at the top table whose lootabomb list got 3s every time for their deffguns.
We won't see the guy who did really poorly with the same list because he rolled 1s every time.
Kind of like stacking your entire army into a huge turn 1 shebang charge roll back before the change to deep strike, or double-shooting oblits. "Wowza, 20 people tried this strategy and 1 of them got very high results on that bell curve!"
Perfect Organism wrote: I play deffskulls and have a load of lootas, since they are a stereotypical DS unit. Any advice on actually making them worthwhile? Seems like only bad moon lootas are likely to be worth it.
Deffskulls are torn between the loota need to be in a big mob (more efficient to spend stratagems, such as rerolling the number of shots and grot shields) and the deffskull incentives to be in small units. Not as bad as ES or Goff ones at least.
Deffskulls have the "Wreckers" stratagem though to re-roll to wound on your loota mobs though. Not as awesome as shooting again, but still decent.
If you have enough models, you could also do 15+10+10 and mob up twice by turn 2 for 35 lootas
Just spread the mob to cover multiple objectives.
You could have small units with spanners with the kmb in the squad. His gun would benefit more from the deffskulls reroll trait. Then put them all in trukks (with rokkit) and drive around. Use loot it when trukks die. The units have objective secured from deff skulls. It may not be the best, but it would be totally different from the static bad moon way of using them
Perfect Organism wrote: I play deffskulls and have a load of lootas, since they are a stereotypical DS unit. Any advice on actually making them worthwhile? Seems like only bad moon lootas are likely to be worth it.
Deffskulls are torn between the loota need to be in a big mob (more efficient to spend stratagems, such as rerolling the number of shots and grot shields) and the deffskull incentives to be in small units. Not as bad as ES or Goff ones at least.
Deffskulls have the "Wreckers" stratagem though to re-roll to wound on your loota mobs though. Not as awesome as shooting again, but still decent.
If you have enough models, you could also do 15+10+10 and mob up twice by turn 2 for 35 lootas
Just spread the mob to cover multiple objectives.
You could have small units with spanners with the kmb in the squad. His gun would benefit more from the deffskulls reroll trait. Then put them all in trukks (with rokkit) and drive around. Use loot it when trukks die. The units have objective secured from deff skulls. It may not be the best, but it would be totally different from the static bad moon way of using them
Why would you do that with lootas rather than burna boyz? The chance of a refund for loot it! doesn't seem that good when you are still risking 1 CP to give a small unit a small increase in survivability.
Relic analysis for y'all: just my own opinions, using my Unviable/Situational/Good/Auto-include tier list from before.
Spoiler:
Ork Relic Analysis
Burned Git Bones: Unviable
Hey you know those guys who get giant bonuses to their psychic tests making them already the most reliable psykers in the game except that they perils all the time so they tend to explode? Want to make them do that, but MORE? The only possible use case I can think of for this is trying to get +4 to a Smite, which doesn’t technically work because Smite is not a “power of the waaagh”. Skip it.
Da Dead Shiny Shoota: Unviable
You know how every relic that makes a crappy ranged weapon slightly less crappy is useless? This one is also useless. See also: gitstoppa shells.
Da Killa Klaw: Auto-include
You know when this relic is talked about in nearly every character analysis, it’s a good ‘un. It gets not one, not two, but THREE huge bonuses: no -1 to hit, flat 3 damage, and reroll to wounds. Absolutely amazing. Combine with the Brutal But Kunnin warlord trait to make our very own Smash Captain – a must if you’re planning on putting the relic on a character like a Dok on bike who doesn’t get a native 2+ to hit.
‘Eadwhoppa’s Killchoppa: Situational
Unfortunately this little lovely will now be forever in a Killa Klaw shaped shadow, but as it stands, it’s not actually that bad, and in my opinion, quite worth the extra 1CP if you’ve got two choppy characters, like say a Dok on bike with the Klaw and a warboss on bike with this.
Gitstopping Bullets: Unviable
No. Worse than the Dead Shiny Shoota at everything, still bad.
Supa Cybork Body: Situational
That situation is: I have a Deffkilla Wartrike and I want him to be more durable. The Supa-Cybork is worth an extra CP to make your Deffkilla somewhat harder to (deff) kill. If you don’t have your heart set on a second relic then you won’t be sad if you throw this on your wartrike. Combines extra nicely with the Bad Moonz warlord trait giving you a surprisingly tanky trike!
Gobshot Blunderbuss (Bad Moonz Only): Situational
Not great, but absolutely hilarious. A character with 3 heavy flamers is ridiculously fun. I really want to see this on a Big Mek in Mega Armor who also has tellyport blastas, just because I think it would be amazing to watch him pile out of a battlewagon and hose down a whole infantry screen by himself with Showin’ Off.
Morgarg’s Finkin’ Cap (Blood Axes): Good
Initially this one didn’t look great, but we have some excellent warlord traits and some pretty lackluster relics on the whole. If you’re running Blood Axes, this is actually probably your best bet for your second relic. Bonus if one of your two traits is Follow Me Ladz, making this one a freebie!
Da Fixer Uppas (Deathskullz): Situational
Kind of funny on a wartrike, giving him the ability to self-regenerate, but kind of silly in most situations. I’m not sure this is worth a CP most of the time.
Rezmekka’s Redder Armor (Evil Sunz): Situational
I’d say this one is worth a CP if you’re throwing this on a cheap character like a Mek in a slower transport like a Morkanaut to help it get up the field, but the mortal wound passive is super unlikely to ever happen. If you structured your list around including it, it would not be bad.
Badskull Banner (Freebootas): Situational
Given the results of the FAQ, I feel like we’re going to be seeing a lot of grot-heavy (and therefore morale weak) Freeboota detachments. Because the Grots rule applies only to Kultur and Stratagems, and not to relics, there’s no reason you can’t use this to give yourself morale-immune Grots, Killa Kanz, etc. Should you pass up better relics to use it? No. Is it the worst relic? I definitely don’t think so.
Da Lucky Stikk (Goffs): Good
This is the relic to make you wish you could take multiple relics on the same guy or relics on named characters. Man oh man would this be so good on Ghazzy… As it stands though it seems like it’s pretty tailor made for something like a Biker Dok with Killsaw. Sadly, most ork characters hit on 2s anyway so the secondary effect of add 1 to character hit rolls is somewhat wasted.
Brogs Buzzbomb (Snakebites): Good
Once per game, your character can put down 5D6 S5 Ap-1 autohitting shots. Now I want to see a cheese strat involving a Bad Moonz Big Mek in Mega Armor with Gobshot Blunderbuss combined with a Snakebites Deffkilla Wartrike with Brogs Buzzbomb. Drive up to infantry screen. Fire 12D6 S5 AP-1 autohitting shots. Profit!
What you want to do is slap 20 Tankbustas in a Battlewagon and go ham. Loot it once the battlewagon dies and then Grenade and Shoot anything smaller than a knight to death.
Also I disagree with your assessment of the Gitbones. Firstly the Waaagh Bonus is now capped to +3 and Secondly Grots no longer add to it. Since we're now down to 30-40 boyz instead of 180, it's actually difficult to get the full +3 bonus now. The Gitbonez lets you Da Jump on a 3+ and to be honest after Turn 1 you don't care about that Weirdboy so perils doesn't matter since it can't kill you in one go.
Da Lucky Stikk is good to buff Power Klaw characters so you negate the penalty.
Burnas being D3 attacks kills them imo. Kinda bs that our flamers are D3 because "they have an ap in melee" wtf do i care they have a t-shirt save anyway, they die to a stiff breeze!
Da Fixer Uppas (Deathskullz): Situational
Kind of funny on a wartrike, giving him the ability to self-regenerate, but kind of silly in most situations. I’m not sure this is worth a CP most of the time.
Note: Because the big mek (index) on a bike has a "bike mekinanc rule, instead of the big mekinanc rule, he actually gains a second D3 repair roll, and could repair two vehicles (seperate) at D3 wounds a turn. Useful for dread mobs, Buggy mobs.
A list i will be trying out this Saturday against Craftworld Eldar. The Warboss on bike will get Da Killa Klaw and Brutal but Kunnin'. The 10 Bustas and 2 Skorcha Meks will ride in the Killblasta super heavy tank. One Mek will have Da Gobshot Thunderbuss (together the 2 Big Meks will throw out 6D6 skorcha shots from the Killblasta, and when they jump out the bearer of Da Gobshot may use Showin' Off to get 10d6 shots altogther with both Big Meks)
I will be using hit and run style tactics to blast my opponent away with mass high strength fire power to gain armour supremacy and have the mobility to claim objectives across the board. With my speed I will be trying to overload a flank/keep clear of enemy chargers.
1 Weirdboy will have Fists of Gork and the other Da Jump. The Weaknesses i see are low CP count (2 uses of Showin' Off and Moar Dakka! together) and enemies squatting in ruins. Let me know your opinions guys, will be greatly appreciated.
++ Evil Sunz Outrider Detachment 496pts ++
+ HQ 236pts +
Zhadsnark Da Rippa 110pts + 2 big shootas 10pts + slugga 0pts + stikkbombs 0pts + Da Pain Klaw 0pts = 120pts
How do you get 2 kombi-weapons with skorchas on the big meks? I thought both index and codex limited you to a single kombi? (granted, I've been wrong on almost everything else I thought, so keep a grain of salt handy)
tneva82 wrote: Well with msu rolling 1 is less of a worry as you average better to 2 per guy
With a big mob you can just use a command point to reroll when you get 1 shot with deffguns. And while more rolls gets you closer to average, more randomness is good as often as it is bad.
But with 5 units you roll 5 dice. Rerolling 1's does not quarantee no 1(it's 1/3 chance of getting 1 anyway then) and costs cp.
If you go deathskulls msu is the way to go. More rerolls to hit and wound
What you want to do is slap 20 Tankbustas in a Battlewagon and go ham. Loot it once the battlewagon dies and then Grenade and Shoot anything smaller than a knight to death.
Also I disagree with your assessment of the Gitbones. Firstly the Waaagh Bonus is now capped to +3 and Secondly Grots no longer add to it. Since we're now down to 30-40 boyz instead of 180, it's actually difficult to get the full +3 bonus now. The Gitbonez lets you Da Jump on a 3+ and to be honest after Turn 1 you don't care about that Weirdboy so perils doesn't matter since it can't kill you in one go.
Da Lucky Stikk is good to buff Power Klaw characters so you negate the penalty.
I guess I'm just not running a ton of non-killa klaw power klaw characters that I care to get into combat. Seems like in general they're kind of a waste of points. If I'm running multiple combat characters, I'm going to be throwing in a Deffkilla, Ghazzy, Killa Klaw and 'Eadwhoppas Killchoppa before I consider a regular power klaw. Realistically I'll never get that far. I rated the stikk as good because I think it's a better combat buff than the Killchoppa so if you are running goffs you might as well.
If the difference between a 92% initial success rate and a 97% on your one cast of Da Jump is worth an extra CP, then sure, go for it. Personally I figure it'll cost me 1CP to reroll a single die if I roll below a 4 and odds are very, very slim I'll fail it. I start with 40 boyz on the board to jump, and if I had less than 20 to work with I wouldn't really care if I failed.
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Vineheart01 wrote: Burnas being D3 attacks kills them imo. Kinda bs that our flamers are D3 because "they have an ap in melee" wtf do i care they have a t-shirt save anyway, they die to a stiff breeze!
I was considering running this list:
"feth your Harlequins"
Ork Brigade (Mixed clan)
HQ: Big Mek on Warbike, Bad Moonz. Combi-scorcha with Blunderbuss relic, Kustom Forcefield
HQ: Deffkilla Wartrike, Snakebites. Buzzbomb relic
HQ: Big Mek on Warbike, Bad Moonz, Combi-Scorcha, Combi-Scorcha
Troops: 6x Gretchins
Elites: 2x6 Burna Boyz, 1x8 Kommandos with 2x burnas and PK nob
Heavy: 2x Big Trakks with 2x Scorchas, 1x Supa-Scorcha each
2 units of 6 mek gun trakktor kannons
Fast attack: 3x Kustom Boosta-Blastas
Vineheart01 wrote: Burnas being D3 attacks kills them imo. Kinda bs that our flamers are D3 because "they have an ap in melee" wtf do i care they have a t-shirt save anyway, they die to a stiff breeze!
Eh, they can be brutal on the charge. That AP mod is a bit of a surprise to most opponents.
What they really need is ignore cover. You should not get cover saves against flame throwers.
Can Burnas benefit from being in large units? Can such large Burna units be used in combination with a Waagh banner? Can the unit benefit from being Bad Moons and fire twice? They could be used in a double detachment army, perhaps? Could the unit be placed in a BW and used as KMB platform?
Just throwing in ideas, probably is just better to use some other unit, but for those that have the models...
Kaiyanwang wrote: Can Burnas benefit from being in large units? Can such large Burna units be used in conjucntion with a Waagh banner? Can the unit benefit from being Bad Moons and fire twice? They could be used in a double detachment army, perhaps? Could the units be placed in a BW and used as KMB platform?
Just throwing in ideas, probably is just better to use some other unit, but for those that have the models...
Yes to the first. Much like lootas, having more in the unit will mean more shots, as the D3 applies to the whole unit. They are cheaper than lootas too
The Waagh banner would benefit them as it adds +1 in the fight phase, and the only requirement is that the unit has to be in 6". You don't need to cover the whole unit
Bad Moons would not work well. The Burnas are auto-hit. The strat could be used though to try to get them to attack a third time, but that's more of a gimmick than a legit tactic.
Yes to the last. Unlike Lootas, you do want to take spannas as they aren't overpriced and their weapon options do add something. Deathskulls or Badmoons would work here, if only to stop overheats. Evil Suns could probably work as well, as you can close the distance faster and still shoot at full BS due to their trait.
Burnas are only good on kommandos with a BC nob to deepstrike and charge and clear out ruin campers exploiting the fact most vehicles and monsterous creatures and bikes can’t hit them on the second floor of ruins. Make them evil suns so they actually make the charge.
Ignore thier separate data slate it’s useless. Even the kommandos +1 to wound in ruins helps them more then the burna dataslate ability.
Quick question -- I keep seeing "mixed clan" detachments. What effect does having a homogenous clanned detachment have? What effect does having a mixed clan detachment have?
Coh Magnussen wrote: Quick question -- I keep seeing "mixed clan" detachments. What effect does having a homogenous clanned detachment have? What effect does having a mixed clan detachment have?
No clan bonus but strategems and relics are fair play so they aim to use those
Technically, yes. But we all know that Indexes will be removed from Matched Play at some point in the future.
Coh Magnussen wrote:Quick question -- I keep seeing "mixed clan" detachments. What effect does having a homogenous clanned detachment have? What effect does having a mixed clan detachment have?
Having a single clan detachment means you benefit from a Kultur. Mixed clan (other than Flash Gitz) means no Kultur. It's the same as any other faction with a codex now, you want to isolate your to gain extra special rules.
Mek Gunz are overrated. This is because they are so easy to kill, a helvrin will kill two a turn by itself. So when taken in large numbers they can become a liability. Also in ITC land it can be difficult to win the "Kill More" objective. Pre codex I ran 10 in every list just because they were our best gun...now most lists I make don't have any.
I think this is shown in the fact that the guy who brought 15 Trakktors did not place well.
I have been sticking a mek gun in list just so my lootas can loot when it explodes. 4+ save in cover!!
I also think spending 2 CP on More Dakka is only worth when it there is a -1 to hit in play. Otherwise just save your command points.
Here is list concept that I think will kill 1 maybe 2 knights in a turn roll hot...assuming they are 24" away. The only CP sink are the lootas.
Spoiler:
Deathskullz Battalion
Big Mek (index) , KFF, Kustom Mega Blasta
Warboss, Big Choppa, Kombi Rokkit
Big Mek w/ Shokk Attack Gun, WL: Big Killa Boss (+1 to wound vehicles and monsters)
Coh Magnussen wrote: Quick question -- I keep seeing "mixed clan" detachments. What effect does having a homogenous clanned detachment have? What effect does having a mixed clan detachment have?
for my jokey list, I just wanted to have access to both the snakebite relic and the bad moon relic. I didn't care about losing the bad moon kultur because all my weapons were autohit anyway. I just wanted to make a pure autohit ork army for SnGs
easy to kill? one of the complaints about them is theyre so durable for the price.
Its not that theyre so tough they cant be hurt like some high save T8 things that shall remain nameless *cough* knights *cough* its that theyre moderately tough for pennies.
A couple things at their durability isnt hard to remove, 10+ is. Thats what ive noticed when i spam walkers/buggies, a few of them go up in smoke pretty quick but then the rest are practically unscathed because by then i had killed what was killing me reliably.
Technically, yes. But we all know that Indexes will be removed from Matched Play at some point in the future.
Coh Magnussen wrote:Quick question -- I keep seeing "mixed clan" detachments. What effect does having a homogenous clanned detachment have? What effect does having a mixed clan detachment have?
Having a single clan detachment means you benefit from a Kultur. Mixed clan (other than Flash Gitz) means no Kultur. It's the same as any other faction with a codex now, you want to isolate your to gain extra special rules.
Once again index was just updated with a big faq.
There are to many GW models where the rules are only available in the index.
They literally clarified by the rules team how to use the index recently.
Once sisters, gene cults, inquisitors/assassins/agents of imperium/ khorne and all the still made models have codex rules I expect the index to go power level only that’s not happening until chapter approved 2019 and frankly at that point9th edition can’t be far off.
I have no doubt the index will be completely fine throughout 2019. Which is long time for Gw.
Vineheart01 wrote: easy to kill? one of the complaints about them is theyre so durable for the price.
Its not that theyre so tough they cant be hurt like some high save T8 things that shall remain nameless *cough* knights *cough* its that theyre moderately tough for pennies.
A couple things at their durability isnt hard to remove, 10+ is. Thats what ive noticed when i spam walkers/buggies, a few of them go up in smoke pretty quick but then the rest are practically unscathed because by then i had killed what was killing me reliably.
That has not been my experience recently. 3 Helvrins will kill 6 of the 10 mek gunz on the table at 48" I don't know what else to tell you.
Vineheart01 wrote: easy to kill? one of the complaints about them is theyre so durable for the price.
Its not that theyre so tough they cant be hurt like some high save T8 things that shall remain nameless *cough* knights *cough* its that theyre moderately tough for pennies.
A couple things at their durability isnt hard to remove, 10+ is. Thats what ive noticed when i spam walkers/buggies, a few of them go up in smoke pretty quick but then the rest are practically unscathed because by then i had killed what was killing me reliably.
That has not been my experience recently. 3 Helvrins will kill 6 of the 10 mek gunz on the table at 48" I don't know what else to tell you.
That's also 522 points worth of shooting going into 186 points of mek gunz ( assuming smasha gunz). That's not a bad damage soak for those points. I'd be willing to bet the mek gunz would trade upward in a shootout.
That has not been my experience recently. 3 Helvrins will kill 6 of the 10 mek gunz on the table at 48" I don't know what else to tell you.
1 Helverin deals 8.8 wounds to Mek Gunz. If you've had 3 Helverin kill 6 Mek Gunz consistently, it just proves that you've been consistently unlucky. You should've lost 4 and a half, or 140pts of Smasha Gunz. That's not what I'd call fragile.
Equivalent points of Smasha Gunz destroy 2 Helverins or 348pts. Mek Gunz are therefore 2.5 times better at Killing Helverins than Helverins are at killing Mek Gunz.
gungo wrote: Once again index was just updated with a big faq.
There are to many GW models where the rules are only available in the index.
They literally clarified by the rules team how to use the index recently.
Once sisters, gene cults, inquisitors/assassins/agents of imperium/ khorne and all the still made models have codex rules I expect the index to go power level only that’s not happening until chapter approved 2019 and frankly at that point9th edition can’t be far off.
I have no doubt the index will be completely fine throughout 2019. Which is long time for Gw.
Something you forgot. Index is ALREADY banned for many.
gungo wrote: Once again index was just updated with a big faq.
There are to many GW models where the rules are only available in the index.
They literally clarified by the rules team how to use the index recently.
Once sisters, gene cults, inquisitors/assassins/agents of imperium/ khorne and all the still made models have codex rules I expect the index to go power level only that’s not happening until chapter approved 2019 and frankly at that point9th edition can’t be far off.
I have no doubt the index will be completely fine throughout 2019. Which is long time for Gw.
Something you forgot. Index is ALREADY banned for many.
just for a few who follow etc rules. Not ITC or warhammer world or England and a bunch of people posted how they use etc but index allowed posted in this forum too. Sounds like a small subset of etc is I forgeworld no index.
Coh Magnussen wrote: How do you get 2 kombi-weapons with skorchas on the big meks? I thought both index and codex limited you to a single kombi? (granted, I've been wrong on almost everything else I thought, so keep a grain of salt handy)
In the Index it says the following for the big mek: "This model may replace its slugga with one item from the Souped Up Weapons or Choppy Weapons lists or either take a kustom force field or a shokk attack gun.
"This model may replace its choppa with one item from the Souped Up Weapons or Choppy Weapons lists or either take a kustom force field or a killsaw."
This two me looks like the index Big Mek on foot and on warbike can get 2 souped up weapons as long as he doesnt take a KFF or a SAG
Coh Magnussen wrote: Cool, thanks deffrekka! That's some scorchy goodness right there...
I'd like to take this moment of silence to honor the glorious kitbash possibilities cut short in their prime of double skorcha warbike big meks.
You were taken from us so soon not for powergaming abuse, nor for fluff violation, but for the vagaries of a hideous and cruel legalistic rules policy.
I am thinking of running a unit of 15 tankbustas with 6 bomb squigs as bad moons since my local meta is very vehicle heavy. It is a bit of a suicide squad but my intension is to jump this up the table to a convenient location using more dakka and shoot twice, espeically with 6 bomb squigs who hits on +2 will kill almost anything or several things depending what you are shooting at. If I dont get first they can easily be deployed out of sight and with grots to protect them, This will ofc hold the 30 blob boyz for 1 turn but you can instead kill key targets and overwhelm enemy turn 2. This strategy is quite CP thristy but could be worth it for 4 CPS.
Since the FAQ clearly states no stratagems on embarked units I found this to be a suitable use for bustas in theory. Let me know what you think
While you really want to be within 6" for Tankbustas so you can Extra Stikkbombs, I agree the most reliable method of delivery is going to be the Tellyporta and hope they survive the shooting they will attract.
Average 31.5" range not enough? I would use that range(well inch less to ensure grots are ahead) and have grots in front. That way they are less of a suicide squad, more of persistent annoyance to the enemy,.
I agree, the extra stikkbombs is just mental. The squig bombs is 18" so you can easily stay out of potential auspex scans etc. You do not need to da jump too deep but just position yourself 18" needed or even snip some mispositioned character.
If tellyport I will need to hold this strategy to turn 2 but that is also a very good idea
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tneva82 wrote: Average 31.5" range not enough? I would use that range(well inch less to ensure grots are ahead) and have grots in front. That way they are less of a suicide squad, more of persistent annoyance to the enemy,.
The big risk with this is that if the terrain is not in your favour and you lose first the bustas will be focused and killed easily I think.
Edit: This could also work well with just walking up as you said! The good part is what you can actually chose to footslog or jump when its your turn to act, how you deploy shuld not matter that much if you have screening grots
Geemoney wrote: I have been sticking a mek gun in list just so my lootas can loot when it explodes. 4+ save in cover!!
I hadn't thought of that, thank you!
Now I'll put my mek guns around my loota blob (with the grots out to the sides as free screens) and just dare somebody to shoot one of them! Once they kill one, the lootas get tougher, possibly for free. Bazinga!
Bryten wrote: The big risk with this is that if the terrain is not in your favour and you lose first the bustas will be focused and killed easily I think.
Does this situation warrant giving up a killy warlord trait in favor of Kunnin' but Brutal, or are the killy traits just too killy to not take?
Bryten wrote: The big risk with this is that if the terrain is not in your favour and you lose first the bustas will be focused and killed easily I think.
Does this situation warrant giving up a killy warlord trait in favor of Kunnin' but Brutal, or are the killy traits just too killy to not take?
I am not sure I know what you mean. What does the warlord trait have to do with bustas?
Technically, yes. But we all know that Indexes will be removed from Matched Play at some point in the future.
Coh Magnussen wrote:Quick question -- I keep seeing "mixed clan" detachments. What effect does having a homogenous clanned detachment have? What effect does having a mixed clan detachment have?
Having a single clan detachment means you benefit from a Kultur. Mixed clan (other than Flash Gitz) means no Kultur. It's the same as any other faction with a codex now, you want to isolate your to gain extra special rules.
Once again index was just updated with a big faq.
There are to many GW models where the rules are only available in the index.
They literally clarified by the rules team how to use the index recently.
Once sisters, gene cults, inquisitors/assassins/agents of imperium/ khorne and all the still made models have codex rules I expect the index to go power level only that’s not happening until chapter approved 2019 and frankly at that point9th edition can’t be far off.
I have no doubt the index will be completely fine throughout 2019. Which is long time for Gw.
i hope 9th is longer than that, we are just over a year in, and sister of battle not be getting thier official codex until sometime last year. it would be a dick move to be liek yea... so we just released codexii for many factions and here is a new edition. That is unless they pull a 6th and just tweek it a bit, and codexes stay the same. still i highly doubt we get a new edition for several years especially with how popular 8th is.
as for the index only units and upgrades I will be sad if they remove them. I still liek to run my custom made rokkit buggies, they are nto the best unit out there but I liek the models enough to still bring a squad of 3.
Bryten wrote: The big risk with this is that if the terrain is not in your favour and you lose first the bustas will be focused and killed easily I think.
Does this situation warrant giving up a killy warlord trait in favor of Kunnin' but Brutal, or are the killy traits just too killy to not take?
I am not sure I know what you mean. What does the warlord trait have to do with bustas?
With it you can put bustas in most killy spot but if you go 2nd reposition bustas somewhere safe and use da jump. Without trait you need to either risk them being targeted or always put them behind LOS blocking terrain which means no da jump on anywhere else and potentially failing to cast it(especially as you need orks to get bonus to casting so unless you have like boyz squad babysitting hard to get more than +1 for more reliable casting).
I love kunning but brutal. I rarely want my warlord fighting anyway as that's easy slay the warlord for enemy as ork characters are rather soft
Bryten wrote: The big risk with this is that if the terrain is not in your favour and you lose first the bustas will be focused and killed easily I think.
Does this situation warrant giving up a killy warlord trait in favor of Kunnin' but Brutal, or are the killy traits just too killy to not take?
I am not sure I know what you mean. What does the warlord trait have to do with bustas?
If I'm not mistaken, it lets you relocate your warlord plus d3 units after it's decided who goes first (so if you guessed wrong, you can relocate them into or out of LOS, either to protect them from turn-1 shooting or enable them to have LOS to a target if you go first). I guess you've got to advance on turn 1 to get within 24" anyways though so it might not buy you much. I was thinking it might let you shoot turn 1 without the penalty, but I forgot they won't be in range. Just ignore me and carry on
i hope 9th is longer than that, we are just over a year in, and sister of battle not be getting thier official codex until sometime last year. it would be a dick move to be liek yea... so we just released codexii for many factions and here is a new edition. That is unless they pull a 6th and just tweek it a bit, and codexes stay the same. still i highly doubt we get a new edition for several years especially with how popular 8th is.
as for the index only units and upgrades I will be sad if they remove them. I still liek to run my custom made rokkit buggies, they are nto the best unit out there but I liek the models enough to still bring a squad of 3.
There's been 3 editions between 40k and AOS with 2 year gap. But then again odds are codexes stay same. Codexes have been completely invalidated 3 times in GW history. 40k 2->3 and 7-8 and FB 5->6. Other than that codexes have been legal between editions.
Bryten wrote: The big risk with this is that if the terrain is not in your favour and you lose first the bustas will be focused and killed easily I think.
Does this situation warrant giving up a killy warlord trait in favor of Kunnin' but Brutal, or are the killy traits just too killy to not take?
I am not sure I know what you mean. What does the warlord trait have to do with bustas?
If I'm not mistaken, it lets you relocate your warlord plus d3 units after it's decided who goes first (so if you guessed wrong, you can relocate them into or out of LOS, either to protect them from turn-1 shooting or enable them to have LOS to a target if you go first). I guess you've got to advance on turn 1 to get within 24" anyways though so it might not buy you much. I was thinking it might let you shoot turn 1 without the penalty, but I forgot they won't be in range. Just ignore me and carry on
Tank bustas move and shoot without penalty unless they advance and then you use ddd.
However does allow you to reposition into/out of safety as needed and of course reposition totally elsewhere if deployment ends up less good for you. 31.5" average range means you aren't covering everything.
You could even use this to push enemy where you want...Put them early up somewhere, enemy puts elsehwere thinking he's safe due to your mistake, then reposition them where you wanted enemy and bustas be anyway!
Bryten wrote: The big risk with this is that if the terrain is not in your favour and you lose first the bustas will be focused and killed easily I think.
Does this situation warrant giving up a killy warlord trait in favor of Kunnin' but Brutal, or are the killy traits just too killy to not take?
I am not sure I know what you mean. What does the warlord trait have to do with bustas?
With it you can put bustas in most killy spot but if you go 2nd reposition bustas somewhere safe and use da jump. Without trait you need to either risk them being targeted or always put them behind LOS blocking terrain which means no da jump on anywhere else and potentially failing to cast it(especially as you need orks to get bonus to casting so unless you have like boyz squad babysitting hard to get more than +1 for more reliable casting).
I love kunning but brutal. I rarely want my warlord fighting anyway as that's easy slay the warlord for enemy as ork characters are rather soft
Ahh! I always mix that one up with Brutal but kunnin, sorry about that I tend to prefer to use Brutal but kunnin on the warboss to make him more than crazy in cc but as you said that will most likely give warlord slain pts to your opponent.
Bryten wrote: The big risk with this is that if the terrain is not in your favour and you lose first the bustas will be focused and killed easily I think.
Does this situation warrant giving up a killy warlord trait in favor of Kunnin' but Brutal, or are the killy traits just too killy to not take?
I am not sure I know what you mean. What does the warlord trait have to do with bustas?
With it you can put bustas in most killy spot but if you go 2nd reposition bustas somewhere safe and use da jump. Without trait you need to either risk them being targeted or always put them behind LOS blocking terrain which means no da jump on anywhere else and potentially failing to cast it(especially as you need orks to get bonus to casting so unless you have like boyz squad babysitting hard to get more than +1 for more reliable casting).
I love kunning but brutal. I rarely want my warlord fighting anyway as that's easy slay the warlord for enemy as ork characters are rather soft
I've found throughout 8th that I almost always have more drops than my opponents, so I usually just plan multiple spots for whatever lucky unit gets to drop last. It sort of works like KBB light. Great for my army because I love two traits on my suicide boss. Now that he is a smashboss, all the better!
to be fair the previous editions were more of a core rule update than a renovated new game.
8th changes the whole game quite substantially, which is why the index existed and why they are pushing codexes out so fast.
I highly doubt theyre gonna drop 9th ed after all that. They have NEVER pushed out every codex in a single edition before, or even close.
I've found throughout 8th that I almost always have more drops than my opponents, so I usually just plan multiple spots for whatever lucky unit gets to drop last. It sort of works like KBB light. Great for my army because I love two traits on my suicide boss. Now that he is a smashboss, all the better!
True that's one way. Though generally once your gretchins starts to drop positions where bustas can go gets limited especially with their short ranges. Also with more drops he gets +1 so 60% times he goes first. I find ability to hide them out of LOS then valuable. But I don't want to put them out of LOS as standard as that means relying on 6+ cast which is not that nice. You'll periodically fail that one. And means no chance to use da jump on anything else.
I'm playing a 65 power campaign, I've got a Evil Sunz battalion of Weirdboy, Bigmek KFF, 2x30 boyz, 10 gretchlin, 3 deffkoptas, trukk and a vanguard of 2x5 nobz and painboy.
The point is, I've got 9 CP left and need a HQ for the vanguard.
2x5 nobz + painboy + meKFF go trukk, 30 boyz deepstrike, 30 boyz jump, 3 deffkoptas deepstrike, I need something that doesn't footslogg, maybe shokkgun + 2 mek gunz, shokkgun is bad but I need a HQ anyways
Vineheart01 wrote: to be fair the previous editions were more of a core rule update than a renovated new game.
8th changes the whole game quite substantially, which is why the index existed and why they are pushing codexes out so fast.
I highly doubt theyre gonna drop 9th ed after all that. They have NEVER pushed out every codex in a single edition before, or even close.
Last statement makes it more likely that 9th is coming soon Can't break that pattern ;-)
But I think FB 6th actually did get to be complete.
So, I'm doing a bit of excel math here on our various warlord traits.
We have four direct-damage warlord traits: Big Killa Boss, Might Is Right, Brutal But Kunnin, and Proper Killy.
BKB only applies vs Vehicle and Monster targets. PK and BBK only apply when charging.
I ran the numbers for the average damage done by a Painboy with Killa Klaw (wanted to have a character who ordinarily hits on 3s in the mix), a Warboss with Killa Klaw, and a Deffkilla Wartrike, and I analyzed them against a few opponents:
A super-nasty character (T6 3++ after a Custode Jetbike)
A standard vehicle (T7 3+)
and an imperial knight (T8 3+)
In almost all circumstances, Brutal But Kunnin provided the biggest boost to damage output.
Might is Right provided a tiny edge over BBK specificially against the invuln-saved character.
Proper Killy brought up second place overall on all characters except the Deffkilla Wartrike.
If you have a combat character, I would advise Brutal But Kunnin as your primary combat trait, unless you are using the Mogroks Finkin Kap and want 2 combat traits, in which case go for Might is Right.
Might is Right does offer an advantage in that it works in second rounds of combat (when you arent charging/charged) but I find that to be somewhat negligible because it is rare to see a situation where the ork character will not either die, or wipe their opponent in 1 round with multiple swings. Or both. Orks is never beaten!
Always ignore Big Killa Boss in every circumstance.
Though I will disagree on the mek guns, I do think your list would do better dropping a slew of rokkits off the boyz mobs, and pumping those points into something else. Deathskulls is all about MSU. Having smaller squads (each having a rokkit > one squad with more rokkit shots). Lots of cheap single shooters avail in the codex (mek's, deffkoptas, you could fill the points with). The mek's with index KMB's are particularly nasty, fit in with those squads and add some serious punch. (death skulls again, so basically hitting 56% of the time with the reroll).
What's really crazy, when you add in dakkadakkadakka, it bumps the % to nearly 70% on a single KMB shot with deathskulls.
Though I will disagree on the mek guns, I do think your list would do better dropping a slew of rokkits off the boyz mobs, and pumping those points into something else. Deathskulls is all about MSU. Having smaller squads (each having a rokkit > one squad with more rokkit shots). Lots of cheap single shooters avail in the codex (mek's, deffkoptas, you could fill the points with). The mek's with index KMB's are particularly nasty, fit in with those squads and add some serious punch. (death skulls again, so basically hitting 56% of the time with the reroll).
What's really crazy, when you add in dakkadakkadakka, it bumps the % to nearly 70% on a single KMB shot with deathskulls.
Though I will disagree on the mek guns, I do think your list would do better dropping a slew of rokkits off the boyz mobs, and pumping those points into something else. Deathskulls is all about MSU. Having smaller squads (each having a rokkit > one squad with more rokkit shots). Lots of cheap single shooters avail in the codex (mek's, deffkoptas, you could fill the points with). The mek's with index KMB's are particularly nasty, fit in with those squads and add some serious punch. (death skulls again, so basically hitting 56% of the time with the reroll).
What's really crazy, when you add in dakkadakkadakka, it bumps the % to nearly 70% on a single KMB shot with deathskulls.
Mek gunz are gretchlin
I think he was just talking about Kustom Mega Blastas.
Technically, yes. But we all know that Indexes will be removed from Matched Play at some point in the future.
Coh Magnussen wrote:Quick question -- I keep seeing "mixed clan" detachments. What effect does having a homogenous clanned detachment have? What effect does having a mixed clan detachment have?
Having a single clan detachment means you benefit from a Kultur. Mixed clan (other than Flash Gitz) means no Kultur. It's the same as any other faction with a codex now, you want to isolate your to gain extra special rules.
Once again index was just updated with a big faq.
There are to many GW models where the rules are only available in the index.
They literally clarified by the rules team how to use the index recently.
Once sisters, gene cults, inquisitors/assassins/agents of imperium/ khorne and all the still made models have codex rules I expect the index to go power level only that’s not happening until chapter approved 2019 and frankly at that point9th edition can’t be far off.
I have no doubt the index will be completely fine throughout 2019. Which is long time for Gw.
i hope 9th is longer than that, we are just over a year in, and sister of battle not be getting thier official codex until sometime last year. it would be a dick move to be liek yea... so we just released codexii for many factions and here is a new edition. That is unless they pull a 6th and just tweek it a bit, and codexes stay the same. still i highly doubt we get a new edition for several years especially with how popular 8th is.
as for the index only units and upgrades I will be sad if they remove them. I still liek to run my custom made rokkit buggies, they are nto the best unit out there but I liek the models enough to still bring a squad of 3.
8th released June 17th 2017... a 3 year turn around for 9th edition in June 2020 isn’t abnormal.... I don’t think 9th edition will be a shake up... I think we are in the living rulebook phase where the BRB is constantly updated... which leads us to the biggest problem in 8th... we have multiple big FAQs, soon multiple chapter approved, Codexes, individual codex FAQs, index, index FAQs, etc with rules all over the place....some of these FAQs even update the original FAQs. Then we will have new units that exist as dataslate outside Codexes becuase they get released after the codex. This is only 1.5 years into 8th now imagine another 1.5 years of cluttered faq mess... any new edition will be a clean up edition to consolidate this mess. But ya i expect a new rule book in the 3-4 year mark. All the Codexes to stay valid like they usually are but then then they will slowly rerelease updated Codexes... aka time to rerelease space marines codex and make money again!
I’m not to worried about this year rumors suggest genecult next, khorne and slannesh and sisters of battle all this year... and I’m feeling some type of rogue trader/agents of the imperium can’t be far off (maybe and renegades)... in other words a full slate of new army releases.
Vineheart01 wrote: easy to kill? one of the complaints about them is theyre so durable for the price.
Its not that theyre so tough they cant be hurt like some high save T8 things that shall remain nameless *cough* knights *cough* its that theyre moderately tough for pennies.
A couple things at their durability isnt hard to remove, 10+ is. Thats what ive noticed when i spam walkers/buggies, a few of them go up in smoke pretty quick but then the rest are practically unscathed because by then i had killed what was killing me reliably.
That has not been my experience recently. 3 Helvrins will kill 6 of the 10 mek gunz on the table at 48" I don't know what else to tell you.
Of course, in your list there is no vehicle. All the enemy anti tank goes to the mek gunz. But 31 and 45 points for a mek gun is a steal, T5 and 6W with actualy shooting. It's basically 5 points per wound for Smashas and 7,5 for Traktors. In a list like yours lootas could be tough, in a list like mine (all vehicles and units embarked or deployed by Tellyporta, grots and mek gunz) they always die turn 1, maybe 2 even with Grot Shields.
Aye, talking about the KMB's in the army. Now that they do D6 damage, if you are running deathskulls, try to fit as many as you can. I think my 1500 point list has 12 or so (all with rerolls). Deffkoptas, single meks, deff dreads etc.
When your single mek in the middle of a gretchin mob pops off D6 damage -3 ap shots with triple rerolls, it does some work.
the_scotsman wrote: Burned Git Bones: Unviable
Hey you know those guys who get giant bonuses to their psychic tests making them already the most reliable psykers in the game except that they perils all the time so they tend to explode? Want to make them do that, but MORE? The only possible use case I can think of for this is trying to get +4 to a Smite, which doesn’t technically work because Smite is not a “power of the waaagh”. Skip it.
I wouldn't say this is unviable at all, especially with the amount of grots being used for different lists. There have been a number of games i've played where my "ork" model count has been quite low. I've used it quite a bit in my last few games, and it's been clutch on several occasions.
It gives the warphead a lot of autonomy, and is very useful to help guarantee that critical da jump smite combo.
At worst I'd say it's situational.
im actually loving Kustom Mega weapons now that theyre D6. I run badmoonz and im finding myself running as many as i can...well that is without sacrificing arms on my dreads of course.
They were so bad before and now theyre great. Probably cursing myself saying this but in 5 games my mork, 3 dreads with 1 kmb, dragsta, and 2 rando meks have yet to roll a 1 after the badmoon reroll too lol. (yup totally just cursed myself with that...)
Im curious though, does the regular ugly as sin kopta GW still sells for some reason have a KMB model or something? All i have are AOBR koptas and i thought the nonAOBR had bigshootas with no options. Kinda curious why it has KMB access yet kanz/babymeks dont.
the_scotsman wrote: Burned Git Bones: Unviable
Hey you know those guys who get giant bonuses to their psychic tests making them already the most reliable psykers in the game except that they perils all the time so they tend to explode? Want to make them do that, but MORE? The only possible use case I can think of for this is trying to get +4 to a Smite, which doesn’t technically work because Smite is not a “power of the waaagh”. Skip it.
I wouldn't say this is unviable at all, especially with the amount of grots being used for different lists. There have been a number of games i've played where my "ork" model count has been quite low. I've used it quite a bit in my last few games, and it's been clutch on several occasions.
It gives the warphead a lot of autonomy, and is very useful to help guarantee that critical da jump smite combo.
At worst I'd say it's situational.
As I note in the review of it, it only grants +1 to power of the waagh, so fit the bones don't help you smite.
Though I will disagree on the mek guns, I do think your list would do better dropping a slew of rokkits off the boyz mobs, and pumping those points into something else. Deathskulls is all about MSU. Having smaller squads (each having a rokkit > one squad with more rokkit shots). Lots of cheap single shooters avail in the codex (mek's, deffkoptas, you could fill the points with). The mek's with index KMB's are particularly nasty, fit in with those squads and add some serious punch. (death skulls again, so basically hitting 56% of the time with the reroll).
What's really crazy, when you add in dakkadakkadakka, it bumps the % to nearly 70% on a single KMB shot with deathskulls.
So 4 rokkits in the boyz squad cost about the same as 1 defkopta. The boyz squad gives me 4 shots with 1 reroll. Deffkoptas give me 1 shot with 1 reroll. So I could take 12 rokkits or 3 KMB deffkoptas basically. Just in terms of damage potential I think the rokkits will preform better. What I am looking for in this list is high damage potential.
I think you could make an argument for a bunch of 10 man units of boyz with a rokkit and kombi rokkit....
I like the KMB's on the mek's there a couple of them in there.
Vineheart01 wrote: easy to kill? one of the complaints about them is theyre so durable for the price.
Its not that theyre so tough they cant be hurt like some high save T8 things that shall remain nameless *cough* knights *cough* its that theyre moderately tough for pennies.
A couple things at their durability isnt hard to remove, 10+ is. Thats what ive noticed when i spam walkers/buggies, a few of them go up in smoke pretty quick but then the rest are practically unscathed because by then i had killed what was killing me reliably.
That has not been my experience recently. 3 Helvrins will kill 6 of the 10 mek gunz on the table at 48" I don't know what else to tell you.
Of course, in your list there is no vehicle. All the enemy anti tank goes to the mek gunz. But 31 and 45 points for a mek gun is a steal, T5 and 6W with actualy shooting. It's basically 5 points per wound for Smashas and 7,5 for Traktors. In a list like yours lootas could be tough, in a list like mine (all vehicles and units embarked or deployed by Tellyporta, grots and mek gunz) they always die turn 1, maybe 2 even with Grot Shields.
I think you make a good point there. The mek gunz seemed to survive longer when I was running the battlewagon version of my list. Note that was index pre knights codex
Think it's worth slapping 7 MegaNobz, Nob with Waaagh Banner and 5 Kommandos into a battlewagon? The Kommandos are mainly there to soak emergency disembark deaths.
the_scotsman wrote: Burned Git Bones: Unviable
Hey you know those guys who get giant bonuses to their psychic tests making them already the most reliable psykers in the game except that they perils all the time so they tend to explode? Want to make them do that, but MORE? The only possible use case I can think of for this is trying to get +4 to a Smite, which doesn’t technically work because Smite is not a “power of the waaagh”. Skip it.
I wouldn't say this is unviable at all, especially with the amount of grots being used for different lists. There have been a number of games i've played where my "ork" model count has been quite low. I've used it quite a bit in my last few games, and it's been clutch on several occasions.
It gives the warphead a lot of autonomy, and is very useful to help guarantee that critical da jump smite combo.
At worst I'd say it's situational.
As I note in the review of it, it only grants +1 to power of the waagh, so fit the bones don't help you smite.
They certainly help you da jump, allowing you to either jump in, or away as the situation demands. I think you've dismissed the usefulness of this a bit too quickly.
Granted, I was skeptical at first, but I've run it a few times, and it is very handy indeed. It gives flexibility, and it only costs a single cp for an extra gubbinz which you could easily have spent anyway on a cp re-roll on a failed casting. With lower point and model count games, it's worth a thought. In my experience, I feel that its definitely not a straight unviable.
BaconCatBug wrote: Think it's worth slapping 7 MegaNobz, Nob with Waaagh Banner and 5 Kommandos into a battlewagon? The Kommandos are mainly there to soak emergency disembark deaths.
Nah da jump 10 meganobz instead. Tried it Saturday with evil sunz, it rocks. The banner is too hard to reliably bring close honestly. 350 points which are a great pain to remove, unless opponent has tons of dark reaper typer things (if so meganobz become worthless).
They are not a competitive unit though (I own 15, including 11 of the latest kit...) I am sad to say, as hitting on 4+ is terrible for clearing chaff they will land on
Geemoney wrote: So 4 rokkits in the boyz squad cost about the same as 1 defkopta. The boyz squad gives me 4 shots with 1 reroll. Deffkoptas give me 1 shot with 1 reroll.
You get 2 shots with the kopta.
Also, the kopta is one of the few units we have that has a chance of sniping. fly up to the character and pray. Perfect for your Deathskulls...probably even better as suns.
Pretty much any spot on the board can be reached by turn 2, if it lives that long.
on note of the banner, only reason i dont use it is the same reason i have issues with painboy/bosses on the assault: since theres no rule for a character to "join the charge" like there is for "join the unit that GOT charged" its super easy for them to fail the charge and leave the boyz alone.
Really, really wish if a unit within 3" charged, the character can follow.
Rismonite wrote: What are the best solutions for removing a small screen before we Da Jump on turn 1?
I got a psyker spell, burna bomma bomm, Kopta bomb
What would you choose? I am talking about removing 5 scouts in my movement or pyshic phase.
It is very difficult, unless the scouts are close. If so, Smite is probably your best, especially if you can get the +3 for being near 30 boyz. Try doing that with 3 weirdboyz and there is a good chance at least one of them will get the D6 smite, on which you might burn a re-roll. If you can get off 3 smites they are probably dead.
What's the best thing to put in chinorks these days? I was wondering about 10 lootas and keep to the fringes of the battlefield leveraging that 48" range, but most loota advice seems to involve stratagems.
Coh Magnussen wrote: What's the best thing to put in chinorks these days? I was wondering about 10 lootas and keep to the fringes of the battlefield leveraging that 48" range, but most loota advice seems to involve stratagems.
I'd suggest Deathskulls Shoota Boyz, with rokkit, tankbusta bomb and a kmb mek.
Cheap, re-rollable high str and damage weaponry with shoota chaff clearance, highly mobile (all assault weapons except deffguns) and cheap (173pts with chinork), all without using strategems or cp.
Vineheart01 wrote: on note of the banner, only reason i dont use it is the same reason i have issues with painboy/bosses on the assault: since theres no rule for a character to "join the charge" like there is for "join the unit that GOT charged" its super easy for them to fail the charge and leave the boyz alone.
Really, really wish if a unit within 3" charged, the character can follow.
I don't use it anymore because it costs like a warboss. It should be 50-60 points. I consider the banner nob highly overrated. It could be of great value in a Goff army, since the extra hit rolls generated by the kultur could be brutal if hitting on 2s with basic weapons and on 3s with pks, but otherwise it doesn't add that much.
Is it legal to have Gobshot Thunderbuss with skorcha combi part for a warboss? Because if the answer is yes, then this means that I can legally field a pyromaniac boss or even Arch-Arsonist of Charadon himself! Mechanically Gobshot is very similar to a beefed up flamethrower, and combined with skorcha that is 3D6 of S5 AP-1 autohitting goodness at 8"... That can fire twice for 2CP.
BAD MOONS model with kustom shoota, kombi-weapon with skorcha or kombi-weapon with rokkit launcha only. Da Gobshot Thunderbuss replaces the bearer’s kustom shoota or shoota profile with the following profile: 12" Heavy 2D6 S5 AP-1 D1 ; This weapon AUTOHITS
JawRippa wrote: Is it legal to have Gobshot Thunderbuss with skorcha combi part for a warboss? Because if the answer is yes, then this means that I can legally field a pyromaniac boss or even Arch-Arsonist of Charadon himself! Mechanically Gobshot is very similar to a beefed up flamethrower, and combined with skorcha that is 3D6 of S5 AP-1 autohitting goodness at 8"... That can fire twice for 2CP.
BAD MOONS model with kustom shoota, kombi-weapon with skorcha or kombi-weapon with rokkit launcha only. Da Gobshot Thunderbuss replaces the bearer’s kustom shoota or shoota profile with the following profile: 12" Heavy 2D6 S5 AP-1 D1 ; This weapon AUTOHITS
I just find it weird that they've specifically called it a thunderbuss, when it is clearly closer to heavy flamethrower. Oh well. Shame that combining Gitstoppa shells and Gobshot is illegal. I don't really understand the point of gitstoppa shells on their own.
I just find it weird that they've specifically called it a thunderbuss, when it is clearly closer to heavy flamethrower. Oh well. Shame that combining Gitstoppa shells and Gobshot is illegal. I don't really understand the point of gitstoppa shells on their own.
gitstoppa shells are basically just for shooting primaris marines
as for the thunderbuss...I imagine that to be some huge, flared-barrelled scatter-shot gun, like a big cartoony shotgun/cannon...you could probably even model it with a killa kan grotzooka
1) does the index biker boss benefit from "SpeedFreaks"?
2) if you dajumped a previously stationary unit with a heavy gun, does it shoot with a -1? If it had moved prior to dajump, does that change the result?
Putting together a list for a local tourney and these questions are bugging me. Cheers
JawRippa wrote: Is it legal to have Gobshot Thunderbuss with skorcha combi part for a warboss? Because if the answer is yes, then this means that I can legally field a pyromaniac boss or even Arch-Arsonist of Charadon himself! Mechanically Gobshot is very similar to a beefed up flamethrower, and combined with skorcha that is 3D6 of S5 AP-1 autohitting goodness at 8"... That can fire twice for 2CP. BAD MOONS model with kustom shoota, kombi-weapon with skorcha or kombi-weapon with rokkit launcha only. Da Gobshot Thunderbuss replaces the bearer’s kustom shoota or shoota profile with the following profile: 12" Heavy 2D6 S5 AP-1 D1 ; This weapon AUTOHITS
Yep, it only replaces the shoota part. So you can have a Thunderbuss-Skorcha combi weapon.
I don't like the Bad Moons trait, but the relic and strat is pretty good.
I just find it weird that they've specifically called it a thunderbuss, when it is clearly closer to heavy flamethrower. Oh well. Shame that combining Gitstoppa shells and Gobshot is illegal. I don't really understand the point of gitstoppa shells on their own.
One is faction locked, the other isn't. Its so you can have a kombi shoota upgrade without being badmoons.
JawRippa wrote: Is it legal to have Gobshot Thunderbuss with skorcha combi part for a warboss? Because if the answer is yes, then this means that I can legally field a pyromaniac boss or even Arch-Arsonist of Charadon himself! Mechanically Gobshot is very similar to a beefed up flamethrower, and combined with skorcha that is 3D6 of S5 AP-1 autohitting goodness at 8"... That can fire twice for 2CP.
BAD MOONS model with kustom shoota, kombi-weapon with skorcha or kombi-weapon with rokkit launcha only. Da Gobshot Thunderbuss replaces the bearer’s kustom shoota or shoota profile with the following profile: 12" Heavy 2D6 S5 AP-1 D1 ; This weapon AUTOHITS
Im doing it with a index big mek on foot with 2 kombi-skorchas and the gobshot. Thats 4d6 - 8d6 str 5 ap 1 autohits on a 89pt Character
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sluggaloo wrote: 1) does the index biker boss benefit from "SpeedFreaks"?
2) if you dajumped a previously stationary unit with a heavy gun, does it shoot with a -1? If it had moved prior to dajump, does that change the result?
Putting together a list for a local tourney and these questions are bugging me. Cheers
Sadly no, he doesnt have the Speedfreaks or DDD rule and they count as moving.
Im curious though, does the regular ugly as sin kopta GW still sells for some reason have a KMB model or something? All i have are AOBR koptas and i thought the nonAOBR had bigshootas with no options. Kinda curious why it has KMB access yet kanz/babymeks dont.
The deff kopta can take both KMB's, and Big Bombs from the index wargear. Both Kans and Meks can take KMB's from the index wargear list.
Geemoney,
The only issue with your argument, is that choppa boyz wanna chop, so a lot of times those rokkits will in combat unable to fire. I'd say my boyz mobs get to fire about 2 rounds a game. (If I'm lucky)
Reworking your list ever so slightly (just taking 3 deff choptas), means you could run a full brigade.
JawRippa wrote: Is it legal to have Gobshot Thunderbuss with skorcha combi part for a warboss? Because if the answer is yes, then this means that I can legally field a pyromaniac boss or even Arch-Arsonist of Charadon himself! Mechanically Gobshot is very similar to a beefed up flamethrower, and combined with skorcha that is 3D6 of S5 AP-1 autohitting goodness at 8"... That can fire twice for 2CP.
BAD MOONS model with kustom shoota, kombi-weapon with skorcha or kombi-weapon with rokkit launcha only. Da Gobshot Thunderbuss replaces the bearer’s kustom shoota or shoota profile with the following profile: 12" Heavy 2D6 S5 AP-1 D1 ; This weapon AUTOHITS
Im doing it with a index big mek on foot with 2 kombi-skorchas and the gobshot. Thats 4d6 - 8d6 str 5 ap 1 autohits on a 89pt Character
I'm not sure that having 2 kombi-skorchas on the same guy is legal
JawRippa wrote: Is it legal to have Gobshot Thunderbuss with skorcha combi part for a warboss? Because if the answer is yes, then this means that I can legally field a pyromaniac boss or even Arch-Arsonist of Charadon himself! Mechanically Gobshot is very similar to a beefed up flamethrower, and combined with skorcha that is 3D6 of S5 AP-1 autohitting goodness at 8"... That can fire twice for 2CP.
BAD MOONS model with kustom shoota, kombi-weapon with skorcha or kombi-weapon with rokkit launcha only. Da Gobshot Thunderbuss replaces the bearer’s kustom shoota or shoota profile with the following profile: 12" Heavy 2D6 S5 AP-1 D1 ; This weapon AUTOHITS
Im doing it with a index big mek on foot with 2 kombi-skorchas and the gobshot. Thats 4d6 - 8d6 str 5 ap 1 autohits on a 89pt Character
I'm not sure that having 2 kombi-skorchas on the same guy is legal
Reading the Index Big Mek datasheet and the Souped-Up Weapons list there is nothing stating that he can't have 2 items from that list. He can replace his slugga for one aslong as he doesn't take a KFF or SAG and he can replace his choppa for one aslong as he doesn't take a killsaw.
I haven't seen an Xenos 2 FAQ that states that this combination is not allowed. if anyone can show me where it says he can't take two I'd be very thankful. But as per reading the index it is very much allowed.
I just gave Deathskulls Deff Dreads with kustom mega blastas a go in a low points game. Just a fun game, so not competitive. I can say that they got a lot done. I did 2x Klaws and 2x KMB's. I found against most targets I was consistently getting at least 1 wound through, and dealing 3 or more damage with each unsaved wound.
I tried using the tellyporta strat to deepstrike them but had mixed results. Three Deff Dreads has a really awkward footprint and it's hard to place them even without your opponent properly screening. In both games I played they would of been better off if I deployed them normally and advanced them at least once.
I found that in both cases at best one or two of the Deff Dreads were within a 9" charge range and the other(s) was/were ~12" away from any target. You practically guarantee 1 charge with ramming speed but by that point you've spent 4 CP to get a turn 2 charge.
I also think that losing the first turn of shooting is a deal breaker. The shooting output is too reliable to waste! I'm tempted to experiment with three KMB's but I suspect two will be the correct number.
I was contemplating using the Tellyporta on Evil Sunz Deff Dreads but I think turn 2 charges, and sometimes turn 1 charges, would be a lot easier to achieve via the klan kultur and use of a wartrike. These would swap out the KMB's for more melee or either 1-3 big shootas or skorchas.
So the tl;dr of it is: Deathskulls trait is great on KMB Deff Dreads. Tellyporta stratagem on Deff Dreads is a red herring and can easily be denied any value.
Rismonite wrote: What are the best solutions for removing a small screen before we Da Jump on turn 1?
I got a psyker spell, burna bomma bomm, Kopta bomb
What would you choose? I am talking about removing 5 scouts in my movement or pyshic phase.
warbikers. they are fast, can shoot a bunch of str 5 shots, and charge in to finish off the screen if need be. bad moons for extra fire power, evil suns is probably going to be more useful though for the extra speed.
Rismonite wrote: What are the best solutions for removing a small screen before we Da Jump on turn 1?
I got a psyker spell, burna bomma bomm, Kopta bomb
What would you choose? I am talking about removing 5 scouts in my movement or pyshic phase.
warbikers. they are fast, can shoot a bunch of str 5 shots, and charge in to finish off the screen if need be. bad moons for extra fire power, evil suns is probably going to be more useful though for the extra speed.
Fails on his requirements. They are clearing at most at shooting phase of T1. That's AFTER da jump on T1
Quackzo,
Agree. I tried doing a teleporter of 3 deff dreads, and they got into each others way. 2 worked a bit better, but at that point, might be better to just save the cp and walk/advance them with the trike as an additional table threat.
Getting the triple deff dread teleporta to work properly requires careful clearing of their incoming deep strike zone, something that is difficult to do given their overall size. (and still have all three within charge range)
Tagging on to the 3*DeffDread Tellyporta discussion. How about dropping 2*4CC weps. Commit these to the best positions for getting a charge off and 1*4ranged weps. Could even do 4*BigShoota if you think there will be more chaff to clear or KMBs if you want to sit there and plink away at something tougher. Either hoping the rest of your army will keep enemy tied up In CC, or if they do charge it then its probably a decent distraction fex even without any real CC threat.
Played 3 deffkoptas last match, deepstrike turn 2 and shoot dreadnought, 6 wounds, didn't die next round, ran far away into another fight and did too much damage too. I will keep playing them, they are fun and deal decent damage. With deepstrike+speedfreaks they can be everywhere.
Kebabcito wrote: Played 3 deffkoptas last match, deepstrike turn 2 and shoot dreadnought, 6 wounds, didn't die next round, ran far away into another fight and did too much damage too. I will keep playing them, they are fun and deal decent damage. With deepstrike+speedfreaks they can be everywhere.
You bothered to deepstrike deffcoptas? I've found it's almost impossible for them to not be in range of what I want them to be turn 2.
Kebabcito wrote: Played 3 deffkoptas last match, deepstrike turn 2 and shoot dreadnought, 6 wounds, didn't die next round, ran far away into another fight and did too much damage too. I will keep playing them, they are fun and deal decent damage. With deepstrike+speedfreaks they can be everywhere.
If you're playing evil sunz, is it even worth deepstriking them.? I'd try and hide them out of LoS as they have fly and move 23"
Kebabcito wrote: Played 3 deffkoptas last match, deepstrike turn 2 and shoot dreadnought, 6 wounds, didn't die next round, ran far away into another fight and did too much damage too. I will keep playing them, they are fun and deal decent damage. With deepstrike+speedfreaks they can be everywhere.
You bothered to deepstrike deffcoptas? I've found it's almost impossible for them to not be in range of what I want them to be turn 2.
By the way, now that stormboyz have deepstrike, has anyone tried out just a cheapo basic 5-man unit? I'm rarely playing games with kill points and since deepstrike is T2 at the earliest giving up first blood is unlikely. 45 points for some quick deepstrikers that have potential to just tie up stuff behind enemy lines could have some potential, no?
Obviously they'll die to a somewhat stiff breeze but they could make their points back with some clutch charges. Also since I play evil sunz the charge is only 8" in a best case scenario..
What the heck do we have access to that DOES transfer its bonus to the occupants? Feels like literally everything except Freeboota bonus explicitly says "Nope, doesnt work on opentopped"
What the heck do we have access to that DOES transfer its bonus to the occupants? Feels like literally everything except Freeboota bonus explicitly says "Nope, doesnt work on opentopped"
Warlord trait analysis, including the results of my comparison of the 4 direct-damage combat traits:
Spoiler:
Warlord Trait Analysis
‘Ard as Nails – Unviable
I guess the question here is just – why? You could make a T7 Deffkilla with it, but having a slightly tougher warlord really doesn’t have much of a shine to it compared to the massive, massive damage output we can get out of other traits.
Big Killa Boss, Brutal But Kunnin, Might is Right, Proper Killy
It makes sense to analyze these together, because they are all in direct competition with one another. This direct competition means that it’s pretty easy to narrow down which one is best in most situations.
I’ve evaluated the average damage output of four characters that I would consider you likely to want to improve with a combat-oriented warlord trait: A Deffkilla Wartrike, a Warboss with Killa Klaw+Attack Squig, and a Painboy with Killa Klaw (primarily to analyze the effect on a character who does not hit on 2s.) I pit them against three different targets: A standard T7 3+ vehicle, a Knight-equivalent T8 3+ vehicle, and a “scary character with invuln” using the custode biker T6 3++ statline.
The analysis shows that right off the bat, Big Killa Boss provides the least benefit in all three instances. Since it’s also conditional (vehicle/monster only) it should pretty much be disregarded.
The other two conditional traits, Proper Killy and Brutal But Kunnin (both only on the charge/when charged), took second and first place overall in terms of damage improvement. Because they are mutually exclusive, unless you soup Goffs and Blood Axes to get both on the table with the Thinkin’ Cap, Proper Killy should be disregarded for Brutal But Kunnin unless you are forced to take Proper Killy (Ghazghull as a warlord.)
Might is Right actually works the best of all four traits against the high-invuln character. If you’re facing daemon princes or custode biker captains and you want to go this route, Might is Right will actually allow a warboss or deffkilla with the Killa Klaw to one-round one of those characters on average with two rounds of combat (Get Stuck In or Orks is Never Beaten). While this is a positive trade for you pointswise you are giving up a warlord kill, and orks do have lots of efficient high-volume melee attacks and low-AP-high-damage ranged weapons that would probably be better solutions. The non-conditional nature of Might is Right doesn’t do much for me, because BBK allows you to one-round pretty much any standard vehicle target with one of these beatstick characters, and in the case of fighting a knight, your odds of surviving more than one round are fairly astronomical, and it’s most likely that you’d rather deal your 18 wounds on average with BBK and Orks is Never Beaten if you’re using your boss as a suicide missile against knights.
With that explanation, I’m ranking Might is Right and Brutal but Kunnin as “Good”, Proper Killy as “Situational (Ghazghull)” and Big Killa Boss as “Unviable” because it is never good better than BBK.
Follow Me, Ladz: Situational
This trait is quite good if you want to avoid running a warboss in a list where you could use his aura. Deffskullz like it a LOT because the value of Big Meks (with their kustom mega blastas) is hugely increased and it is essentially a freebie with the Thinkin’ Kap relic, as this trait grants you 1 CP. For other clans it might be handy to save points, say slapping it on a KFF big mek to make a Snakebites green tide list extra points efficient – you’re Snakebites so you save on a Painboy AND you save on needing a Warboss, while still getting their effects. Those point savings make up for the 1pt nerf on 155 boyz, if you don’t like having your green tide list from the index nerfed.
Kunnin But Brutal: Situational
I have had access to this trait in several of my codexes, and I haven’t much loved it there, either. The best case use of this is to stick your Warlord in a transport (so you can auto-scoop that one) and then select your D3 units from DIFFERENT transports, which can be full of units. A mounted up list can easily redeploy everything they start on the board, which can be funny, but given the pace of 8th I’m not sure how impactful that is versus the cost of deploying all your eggs in just a couple baskets.
Da Best Armor Teef Can Buy (Bad Moonz): Good
I’m kind of in love with this one. Combine with the Supa-Cybork and you’ve got yourself nearly a completely new beast in the deffkilla wartrike- almost like a Sheeld Kaptin’ On Wazzy Jetbike! In fact, the Deffkilla with this trait and relic combo takes more shots to kill with any weapon that has AP-1 or more than the ubiquitous bike captain with 3++ relic. And he’s got an always-on 5+ save vs mortal wounds and a 1cp stratagem to make him -1 to hit for the whole turn! Huehuehuehue.
I’ve got a Plan, Ladz! (Blood Axes): Situational
THERE’S the CP regeneration trait! It’s fine. Strictly a worse version of DE Labyrinthine Cunning, and our Hqs have a habit of not standing around in the backfield staying alive all game. But if you like CPs, and of course you do. Unfortunately Orks do have a lot of more than 1cp stratagems and pregame stratagems we’ll want to be using, and you won’t get to roll for those with this trait.
Opportunist (Deathskullz): Good
This trait jives wonderfully with the kinds of HQs Deathskullz like to bring. Slap it on a KMB/Tellyport Blasta mega armor big mek if you want maximum hilarity, but feel free to just slap it on a regular KMB mek and it’ll still provide solid value. And hey – it’s the clan that can bring more than one warlord trait, too!
Speed Freek(Evil Sunz): Good
The second half of this trait is really the impactful one, letting your Evil Sunz bikers and vehicles cheerfully charge again and again, bopping into targets as their hearts desire. Tends to be less crazy potent than you expect, but still nice enough that I’ve taken it over combat traits several times and never not gotten good use out of it.
Killa Reputation (Freebootas): Good
If you’re taking a Freebootas non-soup list, this trait is 100% your go-to. If you’re souping Freebootas in and just taking them as a shooty half of another list, then take something else. Giving a Captain (Kaptin) buff for combat is about as good as it sounds if your list isn’t entirely shooting focused, but it gets even crazier when you consider the gulf between 2+ and 2+ rerollable to hit, which is exactly where most of your orks will be going when you pop that freeboota kultur in the fight phase.
Surly As a Squiggoth (Snakebites): Situational
The second half of this trait is really what you’re looking at. The situation you want is “Do I want Killa Kanz in my list? If the answer is yes, then you probably don’t want to leave home without this trait.
TlDR: Most subfaction traits are really quite good. Brutal But Kunnin is usually the best trait for combat.
Rismonite wrote: What are the best solutions for removing a small screen before we Da Jump on turn 1?
I got a psyker spell, burna bomma bomm, Kopta bomb
What would you choose? I am talking about removing 5 scouts in my movement or pyshic phase.
It is very difficult, unless the scouts are close. If so, Smite is probably your best, especially if you can get the +3 for being near 30 boyz. Try doing that with 3 weirdboyz and there is a good chance at least one of them will get the D6 smite, on which you might burn a re-roll. If you can get off 3 smites they are probably dead.
Any ork comp list hitting 2000 points should have 3 weirdboys. 3 garanteed Smites (as you say one should hit the magical d6) and one jump for under 200 points is amazing. Just like the 31 point mek gun, they are undercosted IMHO (by 10 points I'd say, probably no more)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
greggles wrote: Quackzo,
Agree. I tried doing a teleporter of 3 deff dreads, and they got into each others way. 2 worked a bit better, but at that point, might be better to just save the cp and walk/advance them with the trike as an additional table threat.
Getting the triple deff dread teleporta to work properly requires careful clearing of their incoming deep strike zone, something that is difficult to do given their overall size. (and still have all three within charge range)
I wanted tro try that my next game but I hadn't thought about this... OK so perhaps a gorkanaut would be better suited (and Oh the joy for all the Ladz to see that big fat walker appear from
nowhere and ram its target ! Turn 2 Waaagh !)
I think if you are going to do 4 big shootas, you'd be better off taking the rokkit buggy. (which was 2d3 +1 rokkit shots, 6 bs 5+ shoota shots, and 6 BS 4+ shoota shots) and does mortal wounds when charging, with a decent CC weapon. (similar to the saws on the dreads).
OK so perhaps a gorkanaut would be better suited (and Oh the joy for all the Ladz to see that big fat walker appear from
nowhere and ram its target ! Turn 2 Waaagh !)
Gork + ramming speed coming out of deep strike would be a nasty surprise. I've noticed the bonebreaker wagons do more damage though then the gork does now (because they hit on 2's and because you can take 2 of them for the cost of the gork) [2d6 + 12 str9 ap -2, 2d attacks)
Rismonite wrote: What are the best solutions for removing a small screen before we Da Jump on turn 1?
I got a psyker spell, burna bomma bomm, Kopta bomb
What would you choose? I am talking about removing 5 scouts in my movement or pyshic phase.
It is very difficult, unless the scouts are close. If so, Smite is probably your best, especially if you can get the +3 for being near 30 boyz. Try doing that with 3 weirdboyz and there is a good chance at least one of them will get the D6 smite, on which you might burn a re-roll. If you can get off 3 smites they are probably dead.
Any ork comp list hitting 2000 points should have 3 weirdboys. 3 garanteed Smites (as you say one should hit the magical d6) and one jump for under 200 points is amazing. Just like the 31 point mek gun, they are undercosted IMHO (by 10 points I'd say, probably no more)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
greggles wrote: Quackzo,
Agree. I tried doing a teleporter of 3 deff dreads, and they got into each others way. 2 worked a bit better, but at that point, might be better to just save the cp and walk/advance them with the trike as an additional table threat.
Getting the triple deff dread teleporta to work properly requires careful clearing of their incoming deep strike zone, something that is difficult to do given their overall size. (and still have all three within charge range)
I wanted tro try that my next game but I hadn't thought about this... OK so perhaps a gorkanaut would be better suited (and Oh the joy for all the Ladz to see that big fat walker appear from
nowhere and ram its target ! Turn 2 Waaagh !)
Yeah, the fact that the gorka can use Ramming Speed is probably its biggest pro over the deff dreads. Really unfortunate that Killa Kanz are once again here gimped by the gretchins rule - 6 of them using Ramming Speed together would be awesome.
Automatically Appended Next Post: ...Hold on one second.
Is ramming speed specifically worded to be a SINGLE vehicle, or can it be used on a vehicle UNIT?
If so, and if Deffcoptas are vehicles that can stay in coherency as a vehicle unit, then Ramming Speed might be potentially a hilarious source of tons of unavoidable mortal wounds.
Yeah, it is actually really mean when kanz ramspeed.
Didnt notice i cant use it on gretchin my first game. Oops. Dirtycharged a squad of marines and their captain, did 3 mortwounds to the captain that had a high invul a SINGLE hit went through and finished him off.
Felt bad later finding out that i actually couldnt do that.
crzylgs wrote:Tagging on to the 3*DeffDread Tellyporta discussion. How about dropping 2*4CC weps. Commit these to the best positions for getting a charge off and 1*4ranged weps. Could even do 4*BigShoota if you think there will be more chaff to clear or KMBs if you want to sit there and plink away at something tougher. Either hoping the rest of your army will keep enemy tied up In CC, or if they do charge it then its probably a decent distraction fex even without any real CC threat.
I don't think changing their load outs will resolve my perceived flaws with the Tellyporta. I mentioned that I was getting two Deff Dreads within 9" of targets but this was in a friendly game without much screening. I think getting 1 Deff Dread to charge consistently is possible but more than that doesn't sound viable to me.
As Greggles pointed out:
greggles wrote:
Getting the triple deff dread teleporta to work properly requires careful clearing of their incoming deep strike zone, something that is difficult to do given their overall size. (and still have all three within charge range)
So you basically need to meet a handful conditions before the Deff Dreads can drop, and then they each need to meet some more conditions to successfully make their individual charges.
Swapping some or all of the Deff Dreads to be predominantly ranged would give you more successful results with the Tellyporta. However, by that point I don't see the benefit of spending CP on the stratagem. The Dakka Dreads don't need the Tellyporta to do their job and the Choppy Dreads will have to meet a handful of conditions to be worthwhile, ones that your opponent can attempt to prevent.
Furthermore, as much as I like the image of a Dakka Dread covered in guns, it'll be outperformed by many of our other shooty platforms.
After thinking about this and typing it out, I think the real flaw with Tellyporting 3 Dreads is the fact that they split into 3 units upon touching the ground. It more or less triples the number of conditions to get them all stuck in.
Quackzo,
I'm really hoping the Meka dread drops in points in chapter approved. If it drops a similar amount to the other big dreads, it might be one of the better teleporta options. Of course it's already pretty fast (mega charga), so who knows. Gorkanaut is beastly, but so many points to hold back till turn for one unit.
im also hoping the Mekadread gets killkannon access back.
Unless i missed it it actually cant use it anymore, despite the arm still being on sale. I am missing a mekadread for my collection but really dont wanna invest that much into a useless model.
JawRippa wrote: Is it legal to have Gobshot Thunderbuss with skorcha combi part for a warboss? Because if the answer is yes, then this means that I can legally field a pyromaniac boss or even Arch-Arsonist of Charadon himself! Mechanically Gobshot is very similar to a beefed up flamethrower, and combined with skorcha that is 3D6 of S5 AP-1 autohitting goodness at 8"... That can fire twice for 2CP.
BAD MOONS model with kustom shoota, kombi-weapon with skorcha or kombi-weapon with rokkit launcha only. Da Gobshot Thunderbuss replaces the bearer’s kustom shoota or shoota profile with the following profile: 12" Heavy 2D6 S5 AP-1 D1 ; This weapon AUTOHITS
Yep, it only replaces the shoota part.
So you can have a Thunderbuss-Skorcha combi weapon.
I don't like the Bad Moons trait, but the relic and strat is pretty good.
I just find it weird that they've specifically called it a thunderbuss, when it is clearly closer to heavy flamethrower. Oh well. Shame that combining Gitstoppa shells and Gobshot is illegal. I don't really understand the point of gitstoppa shells on their own.
One is faction locked, the other isn't.
Its so you can have a kombi shoota upgrade without being badmoons.
I like putting the blunderbuss on a Bad Moonz Big Mek on bike. Mostly because the KFF doesn't care about clan, and his ability to repair vehicles rarely matters. I like to think between him and Da Jumped Shoota boyz and/or wartrike or even mega nobz with kustom shootas, we have the ability to clear a screen in the shooting phase.
greggles wrote:Quackzo,
I'm really hoping the Meka dread drops in points in chapter approved. If it drops a similar amount to the other big dreads, it might be one of the better teleporta options. Of course it's already pretty fast (mega charga), so who knows. Gorkanaut is beastly, but so many points to hold back till turn for one unit.
Yeah I had some variable success with a Meka-Dread with Mega Charga prior to the codex. I was contemplating giving it another attempt but after seeing the points cost, especially after the Codex drops, I'm not sure it'll hold up to what I expect.
Vineheart01 wrote:im also hoping the Mekadread gets killkannon access back.
Unless i missed it it actually cant use it anymore, despite the arm still being on sale. I am missing a mekadread for my collection but really dont wanna invest that much into a useless model.
The Meka-Dread may replace one of its rippa klaws
with one of the following weapons: killkannon, big
zzappa, shunta or ratler kannon.’
Furthermore from the same article you will see that you can use the Codex version of the Killkannon on it, which is a little nicer then the one listed in Imperial Armour.
Vineheart01 wrote: im also hoping the Mekadread gets killkannon access back.
Unless i missed it it actually cant use it anymore, despite the arm still being on sale. I am missing a mekadread for my collection but really dont wanna invest that much into a useless model.
Check the faq The meka and mega dread profiles were merged... the meka dress has full access to the new cheaper killkannon arm (sadly no supaskorch which was the best weapon in 8th)
Feel free to use the killkannon arm!! I have one and it is a beautiful model that really makes the other dreads stand out together!!!
Saying that I still kinda lean toward the rattler kannon (I use the killkannon arm for it) 2d6 str5 ap2 d3 vs killkannon d6 str7 ap2 2dam.
I think with DDD and kulturs the d6 extra shots (especially at bs4) make up for the slightly lower strength.
The killkannon mekadread did drop in price because the killkannon is now only 15pts compared to rattler 16pts
What I want to see in chapter approved is not only a price drop in the meka dread but clarifying that it does get DDD.
Considering i play badmoonz and love my walkers i completely want a mekadread with killkannons. I swapped my regular 3klaw skorcha dreads for 1klaw2saw and KMB just so they had some proper shooting since i dont like clan mixing. Saved 18pts a model and oddly enough i feel the KMB with Bad Moonz outperforms the skorcha anyway lol.
...dang it now i need to order a mekadread...must...resist...buying...more stuff...until ive painted atleast a large chunk of my stuff... AGHH!!
the_scotsman wrote: Warlord trait analysis, including the results of my comparison of the 4 direct-damage combat traits:
Spoiler:
Warlord Trait Analysis
‘Ard as Nails – Unviable
I guess the question here is just – why? You could make a T7 Deffkilla with it, but having a slightly tougher warlord really doesn’t have much of a shine to it compared to the massive, massive damage output we can get out of other traits.
Big Killa Boss, Brutal But Kunnin, Might is Right, Proper Killy
It makes sense to analyze these together, because they are all in direct competition with one another. This direct competition means that it’s pretty easy to narrow down which one is best in most situations.
I’ve evaluated the average damage output of four characters that I would consider you likely to want to improve with a combat-oriented warlord trait: A Deffkilla Wartrike, a Warboss with Killa Klaw+Attack Squig, and a Painboy with Killa Klaw (primarily to analyze the effect on a character who does not hit on 2s.) I pit them against three different targets: A standard T7 3+ vehicle, a Knight-equivalent T8 3+ vehicle, and a “scary character with invuln” using the custode biker T6 3++ statline.
The analysis shows that right off the bat, Big Killa Boss provides the least benefit in all three instances. Since it’s also conditional (vehicle/monster only) it should pretty much be disregarded.
The other two conditional traits, Proper Killy and Brutal But Kunnin (both only on the charge/when charged), took second and first place overall in terms of damage improvement. Because they are mutually exclusive, unless you soup Goffs and Blood Axes to get both on the table with the Thinkin’ Cap, Proper Killy should be disregarded for Brutal But Kunnin unless you are forced to take Proper Killy (Ghazghull as a warlord.)
Might is Right actually works the best of all four traits against the high-invuln character. If you’re facing daemon princes or custode biker captains and you want to go this route, Might is Right will actually allow a warboss or deffkilla with the Killa Klaw to one-round one of those characters on average with two rounds of combat (Get Stuck In or Orks is Never Beaten). While this is a positive trade for you pointswise you are giving up a warlord kill, and orks do have lots of efficient high-volume melee attacks and low-AP-high-damage ranged weapons that would probably be better solutions. The non-conditional nature of Might is Right doesn’t do much for me, because BBK allows you to one-round pretty much any standard vehicle target with one of these beatstick characters, and in the case of fighting a knight, your odds of surviving more than one round are fairly astronomical, and it’s most likely that you’d rather deal your 18 wounds on average with BBK and Orks is Never Beaten if you’re using your boss as a suicide missile against knights.
With that explanation, I’m ranking Might is Right and Brutal but Kunnin as “Good”, Proper Killy as “Situational (Ghazghull)” and Big Killa Boss as “Unviable” because it is never good better than BBK.
Follow Me, Ladz: Situational
This trait is quite good if you want to avoid running a warboss in a list where you could use his aura. Deffskullz like it a LOT because the value of Big Meks (with their kustom mega blastas) is hugely increased and it is essentially a freebie with the Thinkin’ Kap relic, as this trait grants you 1 CP. For other clans it might be handy to save points, say slapping it on a KFF big mek to make a Snakebites green tide list extra points efficient – you’re Snakebites so you save on a Painboy AND you save on needing a Warboss, while still getting their effects. Those point savings make up for the 1pt nerf on 155 boyz, if you don’t like having your green tide list from the index nerfed.
Kunnin But Brutal: Situational
I have had access to this trait in several of my codexes, and I haven’t much loved it there, either. The best case use of this is to stick your Warlord in a transport (so you can auto-scoop that one) and then select your D3 units from DIFFERENT transports, which can be full of units. A mounted up list can easily redeploy everything they start on the board, which can be funny, but given the pace of 8th I’m not sure how impactful that is versus the cost of deploying all your eggs in just a couple baskets.
Da Best Armor Teef Can Buy (Bad Moonz): Good
I’m kind of in love with this one. Combine with the Supa-Cybork and you’ve got yourself nearly a completely new beast in the deffkilla wartrike- almost like a Sheeld Kaptin’ On Wazzy Jetbike! In fact, the Deffkilla with this trait and relic combo takes more shots to kill with any weapon that has AP-1 or more than the ubiquitous bike captain with 3++ relic. And he’s got an always-on 5+ save vs mortal wounds and a 1cp stratagem to make him -1 to hit for the whole turn! Huehuehuehue.
I’ve got a Plan, Ladz! (Blood Axes): Situational
THERE’S the CP regeneration trait! It’s fine. Strictly a worse version of DE Labyrinthine Cunning, and our Hqs have a habit of not standing around in the backfield staying alive all game. But if you like CPs, and of course you do. Unfortunately Orks do have a lot of more than 1cp stratagems and pregame stratagems we’ll want to be using, and you won’t get to roll for those with this trait.
Opportunist (Deathskullz): Good
This trait jives wonderfully with the kinds of HQs Deathskullz like to bring. Slap it on a KMB/Tellyport Blasta mega armor big mek if you want maximum hilarity, but feel free to just slap it on a regular KMB mek and it’ll still provide solid value. And hey – it’s the clan that can bring more than one warlord trait, too!
Speed Freek(Evil Sunz): Good
The second half of this trait is really the impactful one, letting your Evil Sunz bikers and vehicles cheerfully charge again and again, bopping into targets as their hearts desire. Tends to be less crazy potent than you expect, but still nice enough that I’ve taken it over combat traits several times and never not gotten good use out of it.
Killa Reputation (Freebootas): Good
If you’re taking a Freebootas non-soup list, this trait is 100% your go-to. If you’re souping Freebootas in and just taking them as a shooty half of another list, then take something else. Giving a Captain (Kaptin) buff for combat is about as good as it sounds if your list isn’t entirely shooting focused, but it gets even crazier when you consider the gulf between 2+ and 2+ rerollable to hit, which is exactly where most of your orks will be going when you pop that freeboota kultur in the fight phase.
Surly As a Squiggoth (Snakebites): Situational
The second half of this trait is really what you’re looking at. The situation you want is “Do I want Killa Kanz in my list? If the answer is yes, then you probably don’t want to leave home without this trait.
TlDR: Most subfaction traits are really quite good. Brutal But Kunnin is usually the best trait for combat.
I think you got mixed up on which faction can take Morgog's Finkin' Kap; it's blood axes, not deathskulls.
the_scotsman wrote: Warlord trait analysis, including the results of my comparison of the 4 direct-damage combat traits:
Spoiler:
Warlord Trait Analysis
‘Ard as Nails – Unviable
I guess the question here is just – why? You could make a T7 Deffkilla with it, but having a slightly tougher warlord really doesn’t have much of a shine to it compared to the massive, massive damage output we can get out of other traits.
Big Killa Boss, Brutal But Kunnin, Might is Right, Proper Killy
It makes sense to analyze these together, because they are all in direct competition with one another. This direct competition means that it’s pretty easy to narrow down which one is best in most situations.
I’ve evaluated the average damage output of four characters that I would consider you likely to want to improve with a combat-oriented warlord trait: A Deffkilla Wartrike, a Warboss with Killa Klaw+Attack Squig, and a Painboy with Killa Klaw (primarily to analyze the effect on a character who does not hit on 2s.) I pit them against three different targets: A standard T7 3+ vehicle, a Knight-equivalent T8 3+ vehicle, and a “scary character with invuln” using the custode biker T6 3++ statline.
The analysis shows that right off the bat, Big Killa Boss provides the least benefit in all three instances. Since it’s also conditional (vehicle/monster only) it should pretty much be disregarded.
The other two conditional traits, Proper Killy and Brutal But Kunnin (both only on the charge/when charged), took second and first place overall in terms of damage improvement. Because they are mutually exclusive, unless you soup Goffs and Blood Axes to get both on the table with the Thinkin’ Cap, Proper Killy should be disregarded for Brutal But Kunnin unless you are forced to take Proper Killy (Ghazghull as a warlord.)
Might is Right actually works the best of all four traits against the high-invuln character. If you’re facing daemon princes or custode biker captains and you want to go this route, Might is Right will actually allow a warboss or deffkilla with the Killa Klaw to one-round one of those characters on average with two rounds of combat (Get Stuck In or Orks is Never Beaten). While this is a positive trade for you pointswise you are giving up a warlord kill, and orks do have lots of efficient high-volume melee attacks and low-AP-high-damage ranged weapons that would probably be better solutions. The non-conditional nature of Might is Right doesn’t do much for me, because BBK allows you to one-round pretty much any standard vehicle target with one of these beatstick characters, and in the case of fighting a knight, your odds of surviving more than one round are fairly astronomical, and it’s most likely that you’d rather deal your 18 wounds on average with BBK and Orks is Never Beaten if you’re using your boss as a suicide missile against knights.
With that explanation, I’m ranking Might is Right and Brutal but Kunnin as “Good”, Proper Killy as “Situational (Ghazghull)” and Big Killa Boss as “Unviable” because it is never good better than BBK.
Follow Me, Ladz: Situational
This trait is quite good if you want to avoid running a warboss in a list where you could use his aura. Deffskullz like it a LOT because the value of Big Meks (with their kustom mega blastas) is hugely increased and it is essentially a freebie with the Thinkin’ Kap relic, as this trait grants you 1 CP. For other clans it might be handy to save points, say slapping it on a KFF big mek to make a Snakebites green tide list extra points efficient – you’re Snakebites so you save on a Painboy AND you save on needing a Warboss, while still getting their effects. Those point savings make up for the 1pt nerf on 155 boyz, if you don’t like having your green tide list from the index nerfed.
Kunnin But Brutal: Situational
I have had access to this trait in several of my codexes, and I haven’t much loved it there, either. The best case use of this is to stick your Warlord in a transport (so you can auto-scoop that one) and then select your D3 units from DIFFERENT transports, which can be full of units. A mounted up list can easily redeploy everything they start on the board, which can be funny, but given the pace of 8th I’m not sure how impactful that is versus the cost of deploying all your eggs in just a couple baskets.
Da Best Armor Teef Can Buy (Bad Moonz): Good
I’m kind of in love with this one. Combine with the Supa-Cybork and you’ve got yourself nearly a completely new beast in the deffkilla wartrike- almost like a Sheeld Kaptin’ On Wazzy Jetbike! In fact, the Deffkilla with this trait and relic combo takes more shots to kill with any weapon that has AP-1 or more than the ubiquitous bike captain with 3++ relic. And he’s got an always-on 5+ save vs mortal wounds and a 1cp stratagem to make him -1 to hit for the whole turn! Huehuehuehue.
I’ve got a Plan, Ladz! (Blood Axes): Situational
THERE’S the CP regeneration trait! It’s fine. Strictly a worse version of DE Labyrinthine Cunning, and our Hqs have a habit of not standing around in the backfield staying alive all game. But if you like CPs, and of course you do. Unfortunately Orks do have a lot of more than 1cp stratagems and pregame stratagems we’ll want to be using, and you won’t get to roll for those with this trait.
Opportunist (Deathskullz): Good
This trait jives wonderfully with the kinds of HQs Deathskullz like to bring. Slap it on a KMB/Tellyport Blasta mega armor big mek if you want maximum hilarity, but feel free to just slap it on a regular KMB mek and it’ll still provide solid value. And hey – it’s the clan that can bring more than one warlord trait, too!
Speed Freek(Evil Sunz): Good
The second half of this trait is really the impactful one, letting your Evil Sunz bikers and vehicles cheerfully charge again and again, bopping into targets as their hearts desire. Tends to be less crazy potent than you expect, but still nice enough that I’ve taken it over combat traits several times and never not gotten good use out of it.
Killa Reputation (Freebootas): Good
If you’re taking a Freebootas non-soup list, this trait is 100% your go-to. If you’re souping Freebootas in and just taking them as a shooty half of another list, then take something else. Giving a Captain (Kaptin) buff for combat is about as good as it sounds if your list isn’t entirely shooting focused, but it gets even crazier when you consider the gulf between 2+ and 2+ rerollable to hit, which is exactly where most of your orks will be going when you pop that freeboota kultur in the fight phase.
Surly As a Squiggoth (Snakebites): Situational
The second half of this trait is really what you’re looking at. The situation you want is “Do I want Killa Kanz in my list? If the answer is yes, then you probably don’t want to leave home without this trait.
TlDR: Most subfaction traits are really quite good. Brutal But Kunnin is usually the best trait for combat.
I think you got mixed up on which faction can take Morgog's Finkin' Kap; it's blood axes, not deathskulls.
Ah, you're right! The Deathskullz have the fixer uppers. I'll correct that.
Best part of the FAQ is that using Grot Shield to defend against Multi-Wound attacks no longer destroys a Grot per Wound. You roll the D6 per attack, not per Wound.
Disappointing about losing the 1+ Save MANz, but we all knew that was coming.
flandarz wrote: Best part of the FAQ is that using Grot Shield to defend against Multi-Wound attacks no longer destroys a Grot per Wound. You roll the D6 per attack, not per Wound.
Disappointing about losing the 1+ Save MANz, but we all knew that was coming.
If we can denie every dice of damage (ignoring the amount of wounds) grots will become one of the most overpowered units of the game.
A castellan shooting 30 boyz will means like 10 grot dead
flandarz wrote: Best part of the FAQ is that using Grot Shield to defend against Multi-Wound attacks no longer destroys a Grot per Wound. You roll the D6 per attack, not per Wound.
Disappointing about losing the 1+ Save MANz, but we all knew that was coming.
If we can denie every dice of damage (ignoring the amount of wounds) grots will become one of the most overpowered units of the game.
A castellan shooting 30 boyz will means like 10 grot dead
Oh gosh, the horror! I guess that Reece was correct all along!
flandarz wrote: Best part of the FAQ is that using Grot Shield to defend against Multi-Wound attacks no longer destroys a Grot per Wound. You roll the D6 per attack, not per Wound.
Disappointing about losing the 1+ Save MANz, but we all knew that was coming.
If we can denie every dice of damage (ignoring the amount of wounds) grots will become one of the most overpowered units of the game.
A castellan shooting 30 boyz will means like 10 grot dead
Then again all shooting at W1 ignore amount of wounds. It would have been odd to have here be only one in the game working differently(and be hell of a slow).
Anyway on flipside bolters, lasguns etc kill the grots even faster with grot screen than they would otherwise.
WIth the last Big Faq they brought in "tactical restraint" which limited the player to one refunded CP "per battle round". The blood axe warlord trait states that If your warlord is on the battlefield you can regain a CP on a 6+ . Does this mean that I can still refund multiple CP spent at the start of the game before the first battle round provided I deploy my warlord on the battlefield before spending the CP (I'm looking at using ard boyz, prepared position, blood axe deep strike x2 and telaporta, 8CP in total)
I'm going to be running a evil sunz brigade and a blood moons battalion (1 Big Mek with thinking cap allowing him to take the blood axe warlord trait, a weird boy and 3 grots.)
CaptainO wrote: WIth the last Big Faq they brought in "tactical restraint" which limited the player to one refunded CP "per battle round". The blood axe warlord trait states that If your warlord is on the battlefield you can regain a CP on a 6+ . Does this mean that I can still refund multiple CP spent at the start of the game before the first battle round provided I deploy my warlord on the battlefield before spending the CP (I'm looking at using ard boyz, prepared position, blood axe deep strike x2 and telaporta, 8CP in total)
I'm going to be running a evil sunz brigade and a blood moons battalion (1 Big Mek with thinking cap allowing him to take the blood axe warlord trait, a weird boy and 3 grots.)
Correct. Though for 'ardboyz Q is if that is done before or after deployment. Don't have book with me but when it is done? If pre-deployment then warlord will never be in battlefield to regain.
Blood axe deepstrike and tellyporta are fair play though. Dark eldars did that regularly before fall FAQ killed the dark eldar deep strike ravager thing.
Mind you thinking cap is blood axe thing so unless you bring in 3rd detachment for that one of your detachments would lose their clan trait for having him...
I'm torn between running a telaporta Gorkanaut or telaporta 3 x Deff dread. Very similar points, T8 v T7, 18W v 24W, 18 S8 attacks v 12 S9/S10 attacks. Gorkanaut shooting is significantly better and would benefit from more Dakka strat more. Has anyone ran both who can give some thoughts?
Haven't ran both but haven't been impressed with gorkanaut. Not that tough and the 6 attacks from gorkanaut isnt' that hot. With 18 attacks from lesser mode then the punch isn't as much as deff dreads. And flexibility from charging 3 rather than 1 model is nice.
More dakka for gorkanaut is irrelevant for me. Would need to be disasterous 1st turn for opponent to clear tank bustas or lootas. They are priority for that strategem.
CaptainO wrote: WIth the last Big Faq they brought in "tactical restraint" which limited the player to one refunded CP "per battle round". The blood axe warlord trait states that If your warlord is on the battlefield you can regain a CP on a 6+ . Does this mean that I can still refund multiple CP spent at the start of the game before the first battle round provided I deploy my warlord on the battlefield before spending the CP (I'm looking at using ard boyz, prepared position, blood axe deep strike x2 and telaporta, 8CP in total)
I'm going to be running a evil sunz brigade and a blood moons battalion (1 Big Mek with thinking cap allowing him to take the blood axe warlord trait, a weird boy and 3 grots.)
Correct. Though for 'ardboyz Q is if that is done before or after deployment. Don't have book with me but when it is done? If pre-deployment then warlord will never be in battlefield to regain.
Blood axe deepstrike and tellyporta are fair play though. Dark eldars did that regularly before fall FAQ killed the dark eldar deep strike ravager thing.
Mind you thinking cap is blood axe thing so unless you bring in 3rd detachment for that one of your detachments would lose their clan trait for having him...
Ard boyz is "before the battle begins" Telaporta and "dead sneaky" are "during deployment"...
before the battle begins... nice and clear huh
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sorry I said blood moons rather than blood axes. My battalion is blood axes allowing my Big Mek to take the both the thinking cap and the blood axe warlord trait
Automatically Appended Next Post: Extra gubbinz (which I'd be taking in order to take both the thinking cap and the killa Klaw for my smash boss) is "before the battel" which is different again...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote: Haven't ran both but haven't been impressed with gorkanaut. Not that tough and the 6 attacks from gorkanaut isnt' that hot. With 18 attacks from lesser mode then the punch isn't as much as deff dreads. And flexibility from charging 3 rather than 1 model is nice.
More dakka for gorkanaut is irrelevant for me. Would need to be disasterous 1st turn for opponent to clear tank bustas or lootas. They are priority for that strategem.
My army is fairly CC focussed so I'll be reliant on the Gorkanauts fire power when he arrives T2.
Gorkanauts number of attacks decreases as it inevitably loses wounds while the dreads don't.
In terms of attacks the Gorks S8 wounds the same on t7 vehicles as the dreads and in the event I'm hitting a T8 beasty I'll use the 6 x S16 for a 2+ to wound.
I'm almost tempted to deepstrike my nob with waaaagh banner in beside the dread for 2+ to hit....
I can't see GW getting rid of index options for ages but I can totally see the index warboss on bike getting a huge increase in points with the chapter approved. I'm getting used to the idea of running a codex footslogger warboss with killa klaw instead. Wartrike will be wave 1 T1. Footslogger (kept in a battle bus) will be wave 2.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote: Ok so CP recycle for tellyporta and dead sneaky, 'ard boyz and exttra gubbins no recycle.
Ya that seems fair. If you wanted to get rules lawyering you could probably fight it but you'd be entering TG territory. I run AM too so this question applies to their Kurovs Aquilla too. I'm starting with 20CP and even if I regain 9 (1 for dead sneaky x2, 1 for telaporta and 1 per round) I can see myself burning through them all.
I've got 12 warbike/cybork conversions I want to take and the idea of using the drive by Krumping to fire and move is tempting. Probably better off just going for another 30 boyz though. I do love the models though.
Ya that seems fair. If you wanted to get rules lawyering you could probably fight it but you'd be entering TG territory. I run AM too so this question applies to their Kurovs Aquilla too. I'm starting with 20CP and even if I regain 9 (1 for dead sneaky x2, 1 for telaporta and 1 per round) I can see myself burning through them all.
I've got 12 warbike/cybork conversions I want to take and the idea of using the drive by Krumping to fire and move is tempting. Probably better off just going for another 30 boyz though. I do love the models though.
Since the strategem is reportedly saying "before battle" no fighting it. Before battle is done funnily enough before battle. Thus there is no warboss on board. Just as if you would put unit to tellyporta as a first thing. No recycle anyway. You need to deploy your warboss to get that recycle and before battle is done before first deployment.
Well short of mono guard not many armies can do that one. Either they generate many CP's or they use tons of CP. Mono guard is about only codex that not only easily generates tons of CP but also doesn't have all that hungry strategems.
Better Q is how many have got to turn 3 with some CP left
Orks rain but it's not actually as easy as say IG. Our HQ's are more pricey which makes 3rd battallion rather expensive even if you don't take any boyz. Boyz are very expensive. And orks might have tons of CP's but they eat a lot. Loota star eats over 5 per turn in average plus 1 for mobup if you want more than 15.
No doubt. By make it rain i meant in an "ork in a strip club throwing away CPs" kind of way. Our loyal 32 cp farm is 200pts vrs the guards which is 180pts and 30 guards supported by 2 commanders has a lot more uses that 30 grots with 2x index big mechs. Also the guard loyal 32 regain CPs on a 5+ rather than our blood axes doing it on a 6+
Hi
I know the rules for index units that does not has any data sheet in the index and also for options that no longer exist in codex, but for some units this feels a bit like sheeting. Lets take the DEFFKOPTAS for an example. They have the option of a free bigbomm in the index but not in the codex. Is it all right to take this for them?
Nora wrote: Hi
I know the rules for index units that does not has any data sheet in the index and also for options that no longer exist in codex, but for some units this feels a bit like sheeting. Lets take the DEFFKOPTAS for an example. They have the option of a free bigbomm in the index but not in the codex. Is it all right to take this for them?
I believe you can take Big Bomms on deffkoptas from the index but I wouldn't do this personally either. They've clearly been pointed without the bomm so it seems like gaining an unfair advantage through an exploit.
Nora wrote: Hi
I know the rules for index units that does not has any data sheet in the index and also for options that no longer exist in codex, but for some units this feels a bit like sheeting. Lets take the DEFFKOPTAS for an example. They have the option of a free bigbomm in the index but not in the codex. Is it all right to take this for them?
The eldar index allows autarchs to take a banshee mask for free, which prevents units from firing over-watch against that autarch. The codex removed that optiong, however, this piece of wargear is explicitly given as example by GW for wargear a codex autarch can take from the index.
I have yet to face an autarch without banshee mask.
I get what people are saying about using the index however the codex was written with a harsh guideline of only using what on a model for rules due to chapter house lawsuits. The index is still used all over gamesworkshops own batreps and supported. It is literally the old model rules book. At some point it will go power rating only but that’s not going to be in 2019. And as long as Gw continues to balance index units in FAQs and chapter approved there is absolutely nothing wrong with using them. If gw feels free Deffkoptas bombs are a problem they can always give them points in chapter approved like I’m sure several other index units will be adjusted.
tneva82 wrote: Did the previous CA touch index units for codex? GW doesn't seem to be too keen on maintaining those rules.
Nope, they don't care. The best way to get into the mindset of GW design is to understand that while they do have increased support for matched/tourney play and players with established collections, they really want those new players to come in and start an army with new models.
tneva82 wrote: Did the previous CA touch index units for codex? GW doesn't seem to be too keen on maintaining those rules.
Ya the other guy is wrong.
The point sheet touched upon a lot of units in forgeworld and index
We know he is wrong since orks only had an index and yet chapter approved lowered the price of morkanaut skorchas warbuggies and Wartraks and a ton of wargear.
tneva82 wrote: Did the previous CA touch index units for codex? GW doesn't seem to be too keen on maintaining those rules.
Ya the other guy is wrong. The point sheet touched upon a lot of units in forgeworld and index
We know he is wrong since orks only had an index and yet chapter approved lowered the price of morkanaut skorchas warbuggies and Wartraks and a ton of wargear.
my guess is he meant that armies that had codexs by the time CA rolled around, if they got pts adjustments it was only for codex options. we got pts drops in the 1st chapter approved but we obviously didn't have a codex yet, it was mainly a pathetic show to throw us a bone until we got our codex. i doubt we will see any changes to index options in the next CA2019/2020.
but we will see changes for FW prices since they are very unlikely to make any new imperial amour books for the foreseeable future (so lets cross our fingers for our FW options in this CA).
edit, of course i might be wrong, please point out any index options for a army with existing codex if there is any in the previous CA.
Hey guys, I haven't been around the last few weeks, and I haven't read the last 50 pages or so. Sorry if this has been discussed before.
My first post-codex game is this Friday. Is it just me, or the Deathskullz Klan Kultur (6++ and rerolls) is godsend for lone koptas? And especially KMB koptas!
39 pts for a 6++ kopta with an Assault 1 (rerollable) S8 (rerollable) AP-3 DamD6 (rerollable) shot! The reroll mitigates a bit the Gets Hot rule, and with Dakka Dakka Dakka, a kopta might get 2 hits with a single KMB shot!
Along with a Bad Moon battalion, I'm bringing an outrider detachment of a Weirdboy (he benefits from all the perks of the klan, including Obj Sec) and 5 lone koptas. That's 257 pts. Lots of mobility, anti-tank power, backdoor shenanigans, and psychic goodness! Not bad!
Has anybody stomped khorne lord of skulls already? What is the best tactic?
Khorne lord of skulls is one of the weaker super heavies in the game, so it shouldn't be causing you too much trouble. In any case, the ideal unit to counter them are tankbustas (Bad Moonz preferably) since they get to re-roll to hit against vehicles. More importantly, if you manage to get them with 6" grenade range, for only 1 CP you can potentially throw up to 15D3 Tankbusta Bombs at it, all re-rolling to hit, proccing on 6's for DDD! AND doing D6 damage a piece. If you combine this with Moar Dakka! and (if Bad Moonz) Showin Off', you're practically guaranteed to kill it, or at the very least, maim it down to a few wounds left. Thus the bigger question is, how do you deliver them? Tankbustas work best either in a Trukk, or tellyported as a suicide unit T2 onwards so you can combo off your stratagems (keep in mind that the latest FAQ has clarified that neither Moar Dakka! nor Showin Off' are usable for units embarked on vehicles) without having any casualties. So it's up to you pointswise and model-wise which works best for you.
A few questions, if telleport or jump bustas, they will be over 9 inch from enemy unit deployed, and will be counted as already moved, so they have to take lots of dakka. In this case, what if i take tankhammers and charge?
And the second, what if telleport Gork and 3 dreads and charge, will it worth points?
Bustas are assault weapons so unless you advanced to get within range of weirdboy with da jump you don't need more dakka unless you want more hits.
Tank hammers are just bad. Don't do it. Wouldn't even go within 9" especially if further gives you chance to hide from some return fire.
Gork+3 dreads will likely miss one charge at least and even if you get all you average 22 wounds in average so not enough to kill it. You would certainly cripple it but issue is that many walkers in deep strike is easy to block by screens and 4 charge rolls are very unlikely to succeed all.
A few questions, if telleport or jump bustas, they will be over 9 inch from enemy unit deployed, and will be counted as already moved, so they have to take lots of dakka. In this case, what if i take tankhammers and charge?
And the second, what if telleport Gork and 3 dreads and charge, will it worth points?
Bustas don't care about moving and shooting. Only lootas do. So knock yourself out!
Honestly though, I haven't found bustas deep striking to be that amazing. They have 24" range, theyre relatively cheap and easy to just load into trukks, so just split up the squad and put them in several different trukks. I think people underestimate the value of a unit that's actually good WITHOUT spending any CP to do it, and bustas are just that - lets you save your CP for your big jump blobs, warbosses, loota bombs etc.
A few questions, if telleport or jump bustas, they will be over 9 inch from enemy unit deployed, and will be counted as already moved, so they have to take lots of dakka. In this case, what if i take tankhammers and charge?
And the second, what if telleport Gork and 3 dreads and charge, will it worth points?
Bustas don't care about moving and shooting. Only lootas do. So knock yourself out!
Honestly though, I haven't found bustas deep striking to be that amazing. They have 24" range, theyre relatively cheap and easy to just load into trukks, so just split up the squad and put them in several different trukks. I think people underestimate the value of a unit that's actually good WITHOUT spending any CP to do it, and bustas are just that - lets you save your CP for your big jump blobs, warbosses, loota bombs etc.
Completely agree. I've played several times 2x10 bad moons bustas in trukks along with 3x goffs or evil sunz BWs/bonebreaks full of boyz and nobz. They do a lot of work even without the stratagems. If you have armor saturation, like 3 threathening def rollas vehicles full of green skins they can live for several turns because they aren't the target priority. Of course if you're planning on bringing some sort of green tide with just a single trukk deepstriking the bustas is way more efficient.
I suppose it will be better to give a quick comment about an enemy army. There will be predator with lascannons, defiler, obliterators, havocs with lascannons, prince, bloodthrster and lord of skulls. plus troops. So, bustas will be walking, if not teleported. If they will be teleported they will be destroyed in a moment, if they could make a shooting attack it will be about 9 wounds to lord of skulls from 12 bustas, what is not as many for about 270 points, plus, i suppose they will be alive for 1 turn only. If i make a ramming speed attack with Gork, it will make about 13 wounds attack, what is much better for about 300 points, plus i suppose to bring 30 skarboys there and get about 8 wounds and stack lord of skulls. Lord can not target the boyz if here a vehicle near of him. One shot of a lord of skulls is not necessary as i dont want to take all range attacks, plus the strength will be 5 only after 21 wounds.
All the lootas, flash gits on trukks or battlewagons, mek gunz will be destroyed very quickly.
Boss with kastom klaw can make 16 wounds max but will be killed after 2 lucky hits. Maybe it is the best tactic to take Ghazz and jump him or teleport himself or inside a Gork?
Badlur wrote: I suppose it will be better to give a quick comment about an enemy army. There will be predator with lascannons, defiler, obliterators, havocs with lascannons, prince, bloodthrster and lord of skulls. plus troops. So, bustas will be walking, if not teleported. If they will be teleported they will be destroyed in a moment, if they could make a shooting attack it will be about 9 wounds to lord of skulls from 12 bustas, what is not as many for about 270 points, plus, i suppose they will be alive for 1 turn only. If i make a ramming speed attack with Gork, it will make about 13 wounds attack, what is much better for about 300 points, plus i suppose to bring 30 skarboys there and get about 8 wounds and stack lord of skulls. Lord can not target the boyz if here a vehicle near of him. One shot of a lord of skulls is not necessary as i dont want to take all range attacks, plus the strength will be 5 only after 21 wounds.
All the lootas, flash gits on trukks or battlewagons, mek gunz will be destroyed very quickly.
Boss with kastom klaw can make 16 wounds max but will be killed after 2 lucky hits. Maybe it is the best tactic to take Ghazz and jump him or teleport himself or inside a Gork?
I mean, from the composition of the enemy army this sounds like it's either like a 5k points game or "plus troops" actulaly means "very few troops at all."
You seem hyper focused on "what one thing can I take to beat enemy's one thing" when in reality, you're going to have a massive amount of resources to throw around.
Given the extreme anti-tank nature of the enemy army, I'd take a solid green tide plus a loota bomb in the back. The enemy has extremely limited anti-infantry firepower, and none of it will get through grot shields.
if you gave me complete carte blanche to take on this army, my setup would be (since you say Ghazzy i assume you have goffs, and the game is at least 2.5k)
Bad Moonz Battalion
grots
grots
grots
Weirdboy fists of gork
KFF big mek
15 lootas
10 lootas
Goffs Battalion
30 boyz klaw
30 boyz klaw
30 boyz klaw
Ghazghkull
Warboss killa klaw on bike
Weirdboy warpath
Banner nob with DLS Painboy
Then past that point I'd just throw more boyz at the problem. Blunt and simple. No tanks at all.
There are little amount of troops indeed. I completely agree that lots of troops is the best tactic here, but i have a big problem with lord of skulls as it have rule that gives it a possibility to shoot troops that are in hth or when it is in hth itself, plus its cannons have lots of shots and 48 range, it is about half of a boyz mob a turn. In hth it is even worse as it can shoot and chop in the same turn without falling back. Plus, defiler can block scarboyz and make a lot of damage.
Your list is good, but i dont think that lootas can make sufficient damage to destroy all the units that can stop green tide, especially versus lord of skulls. Maybe it is worth to teleport some dreads or Gork to block lord of skulls shooting in hth possibility?
3 weirdboyz
biker boss
big mek with KFF big mek with SAG (or possibly a second KFF)
6x10 gretchins
3x30 boyz including nobz with big choppas
10 lootas
15 lootas
Only costs 1690 points. Cheap enough to add a 4th mob of 30 boyz, more gretchins and eventually a min squad of kommandos to grab objectives or harass backline shooters. Boyz, warboss and another HQ would be evil sunz. 60 gretchins are the minimum to shield the lootas, I'd also put a KFF because a list like this needs cheap HQs and there's rule of three. Adding the invuln makes lootas even more hard to kill.
I've tried this list in a few games (I had 3x deff dreads to complete the list, so no full green tide, but they arrive by tellyporta) and it can already be too powerful for casual or semi-competitive metas.
12 bustas could fire 24 shots. 12 hits. Let's say no more dakka. Another 3 hits. 7-8wounds, 5-6 past save, 15-18 wounds in.
Then rest of stuff
If you really want it dead 15 bad moon tank busta and another 10. Mob up, da jump, fire, shoot again. Average 36 wounds. If you want to be super sure max bomb squigs(i think these even get extra shots from rolling 1). The thing will go up in nuclear explosion. You need super unlucky rolls to fail
All the shields tactics, lootas are quite complicated for me , and not much orky. So i will try the said roster (plus it is already done except morkonaut and 3 nobz which is already bought) and will reply about the result.
Looks like on average the KLOS kills about 10.5 ork boyz a turn with its shooting, if it's within 18". If you have a Kustom Force Field bubble, that goes down to 7. Given taht you can pretty much totally punk the thing by bringing a couple 10-man gretchins squads and just lining them up in front, I think it's safe to say you wouldn't have to be too afraid of it.
ZoBo wrote: hmm...anyone got any thoughts on the specialist detachments for orks, from the new vigilus defiant book?
My ratings would be:
Stompa Mob: Shocker, this rating. Amazingly, taking 3k points of garbage to get very very small buffs does not a solid list make.
Kult of Speed: The special relic gives approximately equal durability to the deffkilla as does the Supa-Cybork, and when combined with the toughness warlord trait that stacks with it (ard as nails, in this case) it gives less durability than the Supa-Cybork combo of the 4++ Bad Moonz trait. The warlord trait is very situational. The only thing that's really worth it is the stratagem, making a 100% guaranteed charge of anything on the board for a speed freek unit. However, we basically have guaranteed turn 1 charges with plenty of stuff, so I don't know if it's worth a total of 3cp. I'll be leaving this one at home even when I play my speed freek army.
Dred Mob: here's where we start getting into the usable stuff. Deathskullz in particular love this one. I can also see it being worth it for Freebootas or Bad Moonz. Waiting for the FAQ to confirm whether it allows kan mobz to shoot twice, that'd be really nice. The only real "womp womp" here is that one of the two stratagems you get for your pricy buy-in detachment involves the craptastic mek shop....
Blitz Brigade: Here's what I'll be using with my speed freeks list! Say, have you ever wanted to have practically your entire army in range to charge turn 1? Take one of these with Rezmekkkas Redder Armor and the Backseat Driver trait and you'll have your Da Jumped squad, your Bonebreaka, Your Hang On Boyz'd squad, and your Deffkilla Wartrike+any warbikes in range to charge. This detachment gets real goofy real fast. The whole gunwagon+battlewagon combo thing isn't even that bad, I paid a CP for a mini-mek to have the blitz shouta and put it in a battlewagon filled with tankbustas next to an empty gunwagon, and they provided some solid backline firepower.
ZoBo wrote: hmm...anyone got any thoughts on the specialist detachments for orks, from the new vigilus defiant book?
My ratings would be:
Stompa Mob: Shocker, this rating. Amazingly, taking 3k points of garbage to get very very small buffs does not a solid list make.
Kult of Speed: The special relic gives approximately equal durability to the deffkilla as does the Supa-Cybork, and when combined with the toughness warlord trait that stacks with it (ard as nails, in this case) it gives less durability than the Supa-Cybork combo of the 4++ Bad Moonz trait. The warlord trait is very situational. The only thing that's really worth it is the stratagem, making a 100% guaranteed charge of anything on the board for a speed freek unit. However, we basically have guaranteed turn 1 charges with plenty of stuff, so I don't know if it's worth a total of 3cp. I'll be leaving this one at home even when I play my speed freek army.
Dred Mob: here's where we start getting into the usable stuff. Deathskullz in particular love this one. I can also see it being worth it for Freebootas or Bad Moonz. Waiting for the FAQ to confirm whether it allows kan mobz to shoot twice, that'd be really nice. The only real "womp womp" here is that one of the two stratagems you get for your pricy buy-in detachment involves the craptastic mek shop....
Blitz Brigade: Here's what I'll be using with my speed freeks list! Say, have you ever wanted to have practically your entire army in range to charge turn 1? Take one of these with Rezmekkkas Redder Armor and the Backseat Driver trait and you'll have your Da Jumped squad, your Bonebreaka, Your Hang On Boyz'd squad, and your Deffkilla Wartrike+any warbikes in range to charge. This detachment gets real goofy real fast. The whole gunwagon+battlewagon combo thing isn't even that bad, I paid a CP for a mini-mek to have the blitz shouta and put it in a battlewagon filled with tankbustas next to an empty gunwagon, and they provided some solid backline firepower.
Your Hang On Boyz'd squad wont be able to charge turn 1 sadly, might aswell bring up some bustas so they can actualy do something the turn they hang on and not just stand there picking flowers. Also only a WARBOSS may take the Blitz Shouta, as he is the ONLY character to gain the Blitz Brigade Keyword, not any other character. Warbosses, Battlewagons, Gunwagons and Bonebreakas. The relic requires a BLITZ BRIGADE CHARACTER, the minimek does not have the keyword. He may be in the specialist detachment but he doesnt get the keyword. Just GW bad rules writing for you. So the warboss will have the shouta and the mek the redder armour.
Its the same with our Kult of Speed, it only includes SPEED FREEKS, but Kult of Speeds in the past have had planes and trukk boys that form it.... so i dont view many of the specialist detachments to be that good.
Stompa Mob cant be used in standard games, Dread Waaagh is ok for a bad moons shokk attack Big Mek and a Gorka/Morka, Kult of Speed just makes one squad of Warbikes quicker which they are already quick as it is and Blitz Brigade is only good for evil sunz bonebreakas.
About KMB Lone Koptas with Deathskullz Klan Kultur, I wasn’t that impressed. Only one shot each doesn’t get enough hits. Next time I will try them in pairs, or solo but with kopta rokkits instead of KMB.
Certainly valid weapons. You get 38% more shots per point which is nice. However you do lose blip of ap and cause more than 1damage less per wound past save. Which actually compensates for more shots so extra ap actually wins out...however against w3 models rokkits are clear winners.
hopefully the dreadwaaagh shoot twice strat can benefit kans, and equip a whole squad with kmb and get some nasty dmg in a turn of good shooting and the kilakans with some kff suport and maybe a banner nob can hold their own on an objective (would be a reason to take them over the very static kmk mek gun).
maybe a good combo is 6 kmb kilakans with a kff mork making their way to the enemy lines raining down plasma while 6 defdredds and a gorkanaut come out of tellyport to reap the enemy line. have mek gunz hold your back objectives while dishing out offensive fire power along with a bigmek with the sag relic.
deff dreads evil sun at least along with grots. Ditto gorkanaut. Rest could be spearhead(well HQ's different as well). For spearhead clan iwth these I would likely go with dethskull to get that for SAG. Not much that benefits from bad moons here. Maybe morkanaut.
tneva82 wrote: deff dreads evil sun at least along with grots. Ditto gorkanaut. Rest could be spearhead(well HQ's different as well). For spearhead clan iwth these I would likely go with dethskull to get that for SAG. Not much that benefits from bad moons here. Maybe morkanaut.
hmm, maybe have sag bigmek as freebooter so he can get a better bs when a mekgun inevitably kills something?
tneva82 wrote: deff dreads evil sun at least along with grots. Ditto gorkanaut. Rest could be spearhead(well HQ's different as well). For spearhead clan iwth these I would likely go with dethskull to get that for SAG. Not much that benefits from bad moons here. Maybe morkanaut.
hmm, maybe have sag bigmek as freebooter so he can get a better bs when a mekgun inevitably kills something?
Could be but that still averages only bit more than 1 extra hit compared to death skull and death skull provides reroll to wound and to damage as well. Plus 6++ and objective secured.
2d6 shot\s isn\t that much that you would reliably roll 2 or more 1's and deth skull rolls 1 ANY miss. You won't always roll even one 1 to reroll with bad moon. Albeit lootas are good so it's worth having worse SAG to get better lootas.
As for rolling them again(wouldn't think it's worth...) that\s yes you need to roll again. xd6 something are usually for phase but for attacks they are for attack. Lootas have definite exception for it but no such exception for SAG.
Not bad! However, with KMB and all those rerolls and additional shots, you will get quite a few Gets Hot results. But with 4 wounds each, depending on which kopta got the mortal wound, that’s not so bad. They were pretty nice. I’ll try them again in pairs.
Is taking 150 boyz to many? seems orks are all over the place and i want an all comers list. something like 2 battalions, 180 boyz, 2 warboss, 2 weirdboy, then fill with grots..?
Played a wierd 5x5 game. Meganobz and boyz were great. Kommandoes were also quite useful. Boyz even managed to hit something with a tankbusta bomb!
1v1 was basically won by turn 2 due to 1st turn charge and 2d turn meganob bomb also making it into combat. But than sw termies with 2 characters and a gk landraider came along. In the end 1367 pt of orks managed to kill like 2k pts of enemies and still had something left on the table.
Twas funny when 2 smashas overwatched a sw termie lord to death after 2 turns of doing absolutely nothing to castellan robots.
hi, i want to make some deffkopta but as airplanes...
i'm thinking to wings of glory airplanes, maybe with a gretchin inside if possible... what do you think?
do you have some alternatives to deffkopta?
ZoBo wrote: hmm...anyone got any thoughts on the specialist detachments for orks, from the new vigilus defiant book?
My ratings would be:
Stompa Mob: Shocker, this rating. Amazingly, taking 3k points of garbage to get very very small buffs does not a solid list make.
Kult of Speed: The special relic gives approximately equal durability to the deffkilla as does the Supa-Cybork, and when combined with the toughness warlord trait that stacks with it (ard as nails, in this case) it gives less durability than the Supa-Cybork combo of the 4++ Bad Moonz trait. The warlord trait is very situational. The only thing that's really worth it is the stratagem, making a 100% guaranteed charge of anything on the board for a speed freek unit. However, we basically have guaranteed turn 1 charges with plenty of stuff, so I don't know if it's worth a total of 3cp. I'll be leaving this one at home even when I play my speed freek army.
Dred Mob: here's where we start getting into the usable stuff. Deathskullz in particular love this one. I can also see it being worth it for Freebootas or Bad Moonz. Waiting for the FAQ to confirm whether it allows kan mobz to shoot twice, that'd be really nice. The only real "womp womp" here is that one of the two stratagems you get for your pricy buy-in detachment involves the craptastic mek shop....
Blitz Brigade: Here's what I'll be using with my speed freeks list! Say, have you ever wanted to have practically your entire army in range to charge turn 1? Take one of these with Rezmekkkas Redder Armor and the Backseat Driver trait and you'll have your Da Jumped squad, your Bonebreaka, Your Hang On Boyz'd squad, and your Deffkilla Wartrike+any warbikes in range to charge. This detachment gets real goofy real fast. The whole gunwagon+battlewagon combo thing isn't even that bad, I paid a CP for a mini-mek to have the blitz shouta and put it in a battlewagon filled with tankbustas next to an empty gunwagon, and they provided some solid backline firepower.
Your Hang On Boyz'd squad wont be able to charge turn 1 sadly, might aswell bring up some bustas so they can actualy do something the turn they hang on and not just stand there picking flowers. Also only a WARBOSS may take the Blitz Shouta, as he is the ONLY character to gain the Blitz Brigade Keyword, not any other character. Warbosses, Battlewagons, Gunwagons and Bonebreakas. The relic requires a BLITZ BRIGADE CHARACTER, the minimek does not have the keyword. He may be in the specialist detachment but he doesnt get the keyword. Just GW bad rules writing for you. So the warboss will have the shouta and the mek the redder armour.
Its the same with our Kult of Speed, it only includes SPEED FREEKS, but Kult of Speeds in the past have had planes and trukk boys that form it.... so i dont view many of the specialist detachments to be that good.
Stompa Mob cant be used in standard games, Dread Waaagh is ok for a bad moons shokk attack Big Mek and a Gorka/Morka, Kult of Speed just makes one squad of Warbikes quicker which they are already quick as it is and Blitz Brigade is only good for evil sunz bonebreakas.
As with all the Vigalus specialist detachments (my guard make use of them) you should only take them if the army you run already has units that would take advantage of the extra rules. I run a brigade and battalion of evil sunz with two defftrikes anyway so the speed freak extras serve me well. An evil sunz defftrike with T8 and 5++ has a threat range of 44". ((14"+2")x2) + 2d6" (3d6" and mortal wounds if you use ramming speed). Making a beeline for a knight and either fight twice or fight after death would take a fair few wounds off a knight. 2d6" consolidation could tie up another tank too...
Ashkayel wrote: About KMB Lone Koptas with Deathskullz Klan Kultur, I wasn’t that impressed. Only one shot each doesn’t get enough hits. Next time I will try them in pairs, or solo but with kopta rokkits instead of KMB.
I tried them. 3x single kopta with kopta rockits and i must say that i was surprised. together with dakkadakka they are really dangerous. There were times i had 2 or even 3 hits with the 2 rockit shots . I used them vs space wolf thunderwolf cavalry i think. 3W, 3+invulsv. So every failed invulsave was a expensive model removed. I was very happy with that result (the wolfs not so)
I woudn't use them in pairs. You make the most of the culture in single models because the amount of rerolls you get.
Honestly it's one step forward, two steps back with 
I tend to prefer to use Brutal but kunnin on the warboss to make him more than crazy in 
