I'm still Theory-Hammering out a list (harder since I said "I won't get the Index, I'll just wait for the Codex") and then find Index options so preferable over the Codex...

1999 Points Total, 16 CP left after list construction.

Snikrot (70 point HQ unit! So Cheap!) and two units of Blood Axe Kommandos to take advantage of his +1 to hit aura and one Evil Sunz Kommandos unit to get the charge bonus will disrupt backfield campers without eating up CP for Tellyportin’ units. The Mek with the Finkin’ Kap is there to hide among the Blood Axe Gretchin and be untargetable while camping objectives. Unfortunately he can’t repair any Mek Gunz due <CLAN> mismatch, but at least he counts as being in Cover at more than 18” so the CP farming should stick around through most of the game.The Weirdboy Warphead can still cast Da Jump and Warpath on Evil Sunz units since Psyker powers don’t care about <CLAN> mismatches.

On the Evil Sunz side 3 Bikes & a Trike should get off a first turn charge on something. 30 Choppa Boyz can get Warpath’d and Da Jump’d into a first turn multi-charge into units weak enough in close combat (Tanks/Artillery/etc.) so a few survive in order to be recycled with 3 CP later. The lone Mek can repair Mek Gunz to keep them in the fight while the two Deff Dreads get Tellyported for a probable Turn 2 Charge for 2 CP before the game, leaving 14 CP to use during the game and see if any CP get refunded on a 6+ due to bullet catching Gretchin, fighting twice, mobbing up, and so forth.

If the Blood Axes aren’t your cup of tea, I could see replacing Snikrot with a KFF Mek from the Index (or spend 119 points for the Mega Armored version from the Codex) since KFFs don’t care about <CLAN> mismatches and re-purpose the remaining 79 points into another unit, but that wouldn’t even get 5 Lootas or Tankbustas, unless you can scrape up 6 points somewhere.

...and now my second thoughts are having third thoughts about renoberating the whole thing into Deathskulls for the 6++ and ObSec.... aaaAAARRRrrgh.

Gotta stop being paralyzed by the Theory-Hammer possibilities and actually go get a game in and get some real-world experience.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I honestly feel like Deffskulls might be the best faction bonus in the game, in a vacuum. Even the -1 to be hit stuff is only better if you can stack it with another instance of the effect. It feels like GW just kept piling rules on it for some reason. It's 3 medium power effects in one. You could glue Snakebites and Blood Axes and Goffs together to be on about the same tier.

It's perhaps the sub-faction of the only Ork player in the studio

So, since my army is painted as bloodaxes, some thoughts on them:

- My banner nob is getting the finkin' cap to pick the warlod trait for Waaagh! and breakin' heads and +1 CP. Hide him with the blood axes stratagem for instant aura-nob anywhere.
- I will have 3x 20 boyz set up in hiding for 3CP, they will appear somewhere in force or just take objectives from my opponents, depending on what the Maelstrom deck dictates.
- One of my bonebreakas will be transporting units of 10 boyz, so they can mob up with the hiding boyz later, where needed. Two bonebreaker will be carrying nobz.
- A kff big mek will start out between the wagons and then run after them, from experience 5+d6+3" is enough to repair them at least once after moving. The KFF, looting and cover from the bloodaxe trait should be enough to keep the army alive until the reinforcements hit hopefully the enemy tries to go after the nobz first, just to find out they are 2+ after looting.
- Warphead with Firsts of Gork and Warpath. He will get the bloodaxe warlord trait to regenerate CP, if my opponent is bringing lots of snipers, he'll just start the game in the boyz' bonebreaka, otherwise he will try to get to a position where he can fist of gork the warboss and support the koptas with warpath (+d3 hit rolls each) and smite.
- Bike warboss with relic klaw for punching stuff.
- Unit of 5 koptas as retinue. If I go first, they get -1 to hit, if I go second they have cover for 3+.
- Two single koptas will start off the board and try to eat overwatch for the sneaky boyz.
- 20 gretchin and a pain boy to complete the brigade. I like the pain boy over the minimek, because it actually has some impact on the game, while the points spent on the mek are just lost

Hey guys, would a 1000pt Evil Sunz elite build be possible? Something like Meganobz, Nob Bikers, Stormboyz and such

I'm going ES brigade:

Runtherd
Warboss on bike Da Klaw and Brutal
Mek KFF
Weirboy

10×6 gretchin

Mek
Mek
10x Tankabusta+2 squig

12x Bikes
24x Stormboyz
1x Köpta

G-Naut
3x Smasha
1x Traktor

Trunk


A lot of object grabbing, some decent shooting, a lot of mobility, tellyporta+3d6 G-Naut with kff (20 pl on the nose), support for the gun and runtherd for the cowardly grots

Edit: is the nob worthy of a KS instead o ff the PK? It is just 2 pts and it feels more likely to kill something juicy.

the_scotsman wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Snotrokkit wrote:
Do embarked Freebooterz units benefit from the +1 to hit if a friendly clan unit within 24” of their transport has destroyed a unit that phase?

Not unless the transport is open topped and also FreeBooterz.

Isn't that the only instance where a Freebooterz unit would be in a transport and able to make use of the kultur anyway?

Technically there is also the boarding action stratagem, so in either of these situations does the embarked unit get to use the kultur “aura effect.” The TO for the tournament I will be playing in this weekend says “no.” So say your freebooterz boyz mob destroys an enemy unit with their Sluggaz; the unit of freebooterz Tankbustaz in a trukk nearby does not receive a +1 to hit from the kultur. The TO is treating it like an aura effect, even though the 24” bubble is centered on the unit receiving the buff, not on the buffing unit. It is a similar situation with psychic powers or Imperial Guard orders.

Snotrokkit wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Snotrokkit wrote:
Do embarked Freebooterz units benefit from the +1 to hit if a friendly clan unit within 24” of their transport has destroyed a unit that phase?

Not unless the transport is open topped and also FreeBooterz.

Isn't that the only instance where a Freebooterz unit would be in a transport and able to make use of the kultur anyway?

Technically there is also the boarding action stratagem, so in either of these situations does the embarked unit get to use the kultur “aura effect.” The TO for the tournament I will be playing in this weekend says “no.” So say your freebooterz boyz mob destroys an enemy unit with their Sluggaz; the unit of freebooterz Tankbustaz in a trukk nearby does not receive a +1 to hit from the kultur. The TO is treating it like an aura effect, even though the 24” bubble is centered on the unit receiving the buff, not on the buffing unit. It is a similar situation with psychic powers or Imperial Guard orders.

So, would your TO not allow a Bad Moonz unit in a trukk to reroll 1s to hit?

Would he allow a Tankbusta unit to reroll all hits against a vehicle?

These are all rules that the unit inside the transport has, and they all still apply. Why is it a similar situation with psychic powers or IG orders? In the case of psychic powers, a modifier applied to the transport would be applied to the passengers (explicitly RAW) and IG orders do not work on units in transports because IG does not have any open topped transports and they require an infantry unit on the board.

This is an asinine ruling.

the_scotsman wrote:

So you've managed to turn "this horde faction that can generate an assload of cp has amazing Stratagems" and reframe it as a whine. Amazing. Orks have:

-the most reliable deep strike in the game with zero CP expenditure

-among the best upfront anti tank units in the game in the smasha gun/trakktor, again with no cp, almost totally immune to rule of 3 since you can have frickin 15.

-multiple amazing detachment rules, evil sunz for deep strike/rush, deffskullz for msu, freebootas for mek gun spam, bad moonz with double shot Stratagem.

Don't like Stratagems? Run evil sunz, freebootas, or deff skulls, all of them don't give a feth about cp for the most part, except for dumping things into deep strike for sunz.

1: not a horde anymore. Since most lists people are building contact mostly grotz with 1 or 2 units of 30 boyz they aren't really a horde anymore.

2: Stating an opinion about the codex isn't a whine. Sorry I am not a fan of a codex that relies exclusively on stratagems to be good.

3: Most reliable deep strike......compared to what? A lot of armies have similar abilities. We are codex deep strike though because of The Evil Sunz tactic that lets us get a 75%ish chance of getting a charge off.

4: best upfront anti-tank units in the game...no. Smasha gunz are good as are traktor kannons, but they aren't OP nor are they the best. Also you can have 18 not just 15

5: Amazing detachment rules. I agree. Damn shame that GW doesn't know how to write them though. Or do you not find it odd that the BEST faction for Kommandos isn't blood axes, its Evil sunz, or that Warbikers are better taken as Bad Moonz instead of Evil Sunz?

6: Evil sunz dont work without stratagems. you need the tellyporta strike in order to be competitive.

Basically you and I disagree on how good the codex is, and we will have to wait for the next few months for players to make their own decisions. However, I do remember saying that the index was hot trash and nobody agreed for the longest time and now its almost universally known that the Ork index was held up exclusively by Boyz and that was about it.

Please don't call someone a "whiner" because they disagree with your opinion.

Kzraahk wrote:
Hey guys, would a 1000pt Evil Sunz elite build be possible? Something like Meganobz, Nob Bikers, Stormboyz and such

This should be roughly 1000p and could be fun to play. A bit dependent on the meganobs making a good charge...

Batallion Evil suns:
Biker boss
Deffkilla wartrike
3x 10x gretchin
10x meganobs (telly porta)

Outrider Evil suns:
Zhadsnark
2x 5x stormboys (flying high)
3x warbikes

Quick thoughts...

I'll be able to protect my backline characters with my MSU grechin and grot shield strat against snipers... surprised me.

Can you give the fixer uperz to a tiny mek and he has mechanic, right? Just 1 but... would that give him the flat 3 repair? seems good for the points if true...

What do you think would be the best clans/strats for a Garg-Squig focused list? Itchy to play him with the new rules in some way, was thinking snakebites for a 5++/6+++ with the KFF I stick in/next to him, or elts evil sunz to get that sweet mele stat line into combat all the sooner.. not much elts comes to mind...

SemperMortis wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

So you've managed to turn "this horde faction that can generate an assload of cp has amazing Stratagems" and reframe it as a whine. Amazing. Orks have:

-the most reliable deep strike in the game with zero CP expenditure

-among the best upfront anti tank units in the game in the smasha gun/trakktor, again with no cp, almost totally immune to rule of 3 since you can have frickin 15.

-multiple amazing detachment rules, evil sunz for deep strike/rush, deffskullz for msu, freebootas for mek gun spam, bad moonz with double shot Stratagem.

Don't like Stratagems? Run evil sunz, freebootas, or deff skulls, all of them don't give a feth about cp for the most part, except for dumping things into deep strike for sunz.

1: not a horde anymore. Since most lists people are building contact mostly grotz with 1 or 2 units of 30 boyz they aren't really a horde anymore.

2: Stating an opinion about the codex isn't a whine. Sorry I am not a fan of a codex that relies exclusively on stratagems to be good.

3: Most reliable deep strike......compared to what? A lot of armies have similar abilities. We are codex deep strike though because of The Evil Sunz tactic that lets us get a 75%ish chance of getting a charge off.

4: best upfront anti-tank units in the game...no. Smasha gunz are good as are traktor kannons, but they aren't OP nor are they the best. Also you can have 18 not just 15

5: Amazing detachment rules. I agree. Damn shame that GW doesn't know how to write them though. Or do you not find it odd that the BEST faction for Kommandos isn't blood axes, its Evil sunz, or that Warbikers are better taken as Bad Moonz instead of Evil Sunz?

6: Evil sunz dont work without stratagems. you need the tellyporta strike in order to be competitive.

Basically you and I disagree on how good the codex is, and we will have to wait for the next few months for players to make their own decisions. However, I do remember saying that the index was hot trash and nobody agreed for the longest time and now its almost universally known that the Ork index was held up exclusively by Boyz and that was about it.

Please don't call someone a "whiner" because they disagree with your opinion.

Most reliable deep strike with no CP compared to anyone. Literally any army and any subfaction - all the other armies with access to reroll charges can't choose one or both dice to reroll, and even GSC have to use CP to boost up their chance of a 5 or 6 to have better odds than us. And I'm not just talking about Evil Sunz - any ork unit from any kultur has better odds of getting in off deep strike without spending CP than any other army's unit.

I'm pretty confused as to where you'd put the line where Smasha Guns would go from "Good" to "OP". They do more damage per point to T7 3+ and T8 3+ 5++ vehicles than tons of things that are currently considered "OP" - Dissie ravagers in reroll 1 to hit auras, catachan shadowswords and basilisks, and onager dunecrawlers standing in Cawl's aura. If you do not see these things spammed in at least one top table tourney list in the next couple months I will eat my hat.

You seem to think everyone shares your exact definition of "best". The "best" way to run warbikes is the way that maximises their damage output? To me, the "best" way to run them is the way that maximises their ability to score and tie up weaker units in melee while still shooting at full capacity, which is definitely Evil Sunz. if you only care about damage with them, why not run them as Freebootas, where you get a bigger bonus, or Deffskullz, where the one Nob in the unit can do some real work? Oh, that's weird, it looks like you can choose multiple different clans and get different benefits depending on what you want out of the unit, and there's not just one "best" option. Same deal with Kommandos - here you switch "best" from "most damage" to "most reliable off of deep strike" because it suits the complaint you want to make. Blood Axe kommandos have the Snikrot aura buff. Deffskullz kommandos would get the most mileage out of the single klaw and tankbusta bomb. Evil Sunz kommandos have a 15% higher chance of getting into combat.

There are still plenty of people who complain about the pieces of the dark eldar codex they don't like over at thedarkcity, and people that complain about how underpowered Guard is here on dakka. When you exclusively focus on negatives and reframe all positives into negatives just so you can continue to complain, you cross the boundary from "disagreement" to "whining."

the_scotsman wrote:

Snotrokkit wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Snotrokkit wrote:
Do embarked Freebooterz units benefit from the +1 to hit if a friendly clan unit within 24” of their transport has destroyed a unit that phase?

Not unless the transport is open topped and also FreeBooterz.

Isn't that the only instance where a Freebooterz unit would be in a transport and able to make use of the kultur anyway?

Technically there is also the boarding action stratagem, so in either of these situations does the embarked unit get to use the kultur “aura effect.” The TO for the tournament I will be playing in this weekend says “no.” So say your freebooterz boyz mob destroys an enemy unit with their Sluggaz; the unit of freebooterz Tankbustaz in a trukk nearby does not receive a +1 to hit from the kultur. The TO is treating it like an aura effect, even though the 24” bubble is centered on the unit receiving the buff, not on the buffing unit. It is a similar situation with psychic powers or Imperial Guard orders.

So, would your TO not allow a Bad Moonz unit in a trukk to reroll 1s to hit?

Would he allow a Tankbusta unit to reroll all hits against a vehicle?

These are all rules that the unit inside the transport has, and they all still apply. Why is it a similar situation with psychic powers or IG orders? In the case of psychic powers, a modifier applied to the transport would be applied to the passengers (explicitly RAW) and IG orders do not work on units in transports because IG does not have any open topped transports and they require an infantry unit on the board.

This is an asinine ruling.

That's a false comparison. Transported units can benefit from their own abilities just fine, but they cannot be affected bu range-dependent abilities like auras and the Freebooter kultur because they are not on the table and thus cannot be within x inches of anything.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
technically speaking Bad Moonz are probably one of the worst kultures.

Rerolls of 1 when shooting doesnt help a good chunk of orks, either because they have no shooting in the first place or its just a slugga. They offer absolutely nothing for melee, which is weird since Meganobz are commonly shown off as Bad Moonz.

However i still love them both because its always been my fav colorscheme (and that wins on its own) and ESPECIALLY with KustomMegas doing D6 damage now its pretty easy to pop or severely damage big threats before the charge, and our charge is strong by default. If i face a numbers list then this is pretty moot.
So many rokkits and KMBs.....

The klan ability is awful.

The saving grace of bad moons is the ridiculously exploitable shoot twice strategem. Combine with more Dakka, salt to taste on whatever giant shooty unit catches your fancy.

It's easily the most braindead clan to optimize. Tankbustas, Lootas, take your pick and roll buckets of dice.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Snotrokkit wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Snotrokkit wrote:
Do embarked Freebooterz units benefit from the +1 to hit if a friendly clan unit within 24” of their transport has destroyed a unit that phase?

Not unless the transport is open topped and also FreeBooterz.

Isn't that the only instance where a Freebooterz unit would be in a transport and able to make use of the kultur anyway?

Technically there is also the boarding action stratagem, so in either of these situations does the embarked unit get to use the kultur “aura effect.” The TO for the tournament I will be playing in this weekend says “no.” So say your freebooterz boyz mob destroys an enemy unit with their Sluggaz; the unit of freebooterz Tankbustaz in a trukk nearby does not receive a +1 to hit from the kultur. The TO is treating it like an aura effect, even though the 24” bubble is centered on the unit receiving the buff, not on the buffing unit. It is a similar situation with psychic powers or Imperial Guard orders.

So, would your TO not allow a Bad Moonz unit in a trukk to reroll 1s to hit?

Would he allow a Tankbusta unit to reroll all hits against a vehicle?

These are all rules that the unit inside the transport has, and they all still apply. Why is it a similar situation with psychic powers or IG orders? In the case of psychic powers, a modifier applied to the transport would be applied to the passengers (explicitly RAW) and IG orders do not work on units in transports because IG does not have any open topped transports and they require an infantry unit on the board.

This is an asinine ruling.

That's a false comparison. Transported units can benefit from their own abilities just fine, but they cannot be affected bu range-dependent abilities like auras and the Freebooter kultur because they are not on the table and thus cannot be within x inches of anything.

The TO's wrong, but not for that reason. There's no way to measure from the unit (since it isn't on the table), you are right, but that's irrelevant. Open Topped gives the unit inside the vehicle the +1 (assuming they are both Freeboota tagged), as that's most definitely a modifier and "any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers".

If they start ignoring that, then you end up being able to shoot heavy weapons while the transport advances or shoot while the vehicle's engaged. What happens when your mounted Freeboota unit shoots at a Raven Guard unit? How do you measure if they're within 18"?

 Trimarius wrote:
If they start ignoring that, then you end up being able to shoot heavy weapons while the transport advances or shoot while the vehicle's engaged. What happens when your mounted Freeboota unit shoots at a Raven Guard unit? How do you measure if they're within 18"?

I agree with this completely. If 12 tankbustas can all shoot from the front bumper, even though none of them are standing on it, why can't my warboss call a waaagh! from there?

The correct answer is "because GW said so, that's why." Unfortunately this isn't a very satisfying answer.

i'd bring the open topped rule to that TO's attention.
Even if the units inside ARENT freebootas, but the transport is, they'd get the modifier because of Open Topped. Only thing that isnt shared is Mobile Fortress strictly because it says it doesnt.
(though i think thats an impossible scenario anyway, as freebootas are granted access to other clan transports but not other way around)

 Trimarius wrote:
What happens when your mounted Freeboota unit shoots at a Raven Guard unit? How do you measure if they're within 18"?

It says to measure distances from the vehicle hull when shooting; otherwise, even with infinite range they would never be in range to shoot anything.

do boys in transport count towards the "+1 to psychic test per 10 boys within 6""?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do boys within transport count towards the "+1 to psychic test per 10 ork models within 6""?

PuppetSoul wrote:

 Trimarius wrote:
What happens when your mounted Freeboota unit shoots at a Raven Guard unit? How do you measure if they're within 18"?

It says to measure distances from the vehicle hull when shooting; otherwise, even with infinite range they would never be in range to shoot anything.

That was part of my point. The vehicle is what's important, the passengers almost become equipment for it. So if the vehicle is getting the Freeboota +1 to hit, the boyz inside are too (otherwise the game falls apart).

I can't think of a way to give non-Freeboota models the +1 (since transports are klan locked besides the already Freeboota Flash Gitz), but you do run into some silly situations where you can give transported Gretchin the +1 or a unit in a Chinork a +1 to hit flyers with the flying vehicle only strat Long, Uncontrolled Bursts (again, only the transport matters, it passes modifiers on to the payload, however counter-intuitive that might be). Though I did just notice that Flash Gitz can't get into another clan's transports if they have any Ammo Runts, funnily enough, as the grots don't have the Flash Gitz tag, only the Freeboota tag. I guess everyone else is afraid the runts are incontinent?

It gets really awkward when you have to define what "modifiers" means, though. Obviously +/- to a roll is pretty straightforward, but what about rerolls? More Dakka? I'd definitely say they modify the result of the action, but should they count? Now we're into contentious territory.


-Edit-
CaptainO - No, the boyz basically don't exist while inside a transport. They wouldn't even count if they were embarked in the same transport, as there's nothing to measure to. Kaptain Badrukk doesn't let Flash Gitz he's riding with reroll 1s, for example, even though they're presumably rubbing shoulders in that trukk.

1: not a horde anymore. Since most lists people are building contact mostly grotz with 1 or 2 units of 30 boyz they aren't really a horde anymore.

Just because others are running minimum grot squads +toys.. doesnt mean orks arent a horde army. I plunked down 180 goff boyz the other night and wrecked face.

2: Stating an opinion about the codex isn't a whine. Sorry I am not a fan of a codex that relies exclusively on stratagems to be good.

You're right. An opinion isnt a whine. Maybe the tone (which is ironic because this is the internet, but we all know there is a tone to these things) that came across as whiny. But youre statement that the codex is only good because of/using the starts isnt true. Its a great book because it values multiple playstyles and unit choices then ever before..as well as relevant warlord traits, and kulture.

3: Most reliable deep strike......compared to what? A lot of armies have similar abilities. We are codex deep strike though because of The Evil Sunz tactic that lets us get a 75%ish chance of getting a charge off.

This is not debateable. Its not subjective. Orks are the absolute best deep strikers in the game right now. Between multiple ways to do it (blood axe strat, tellyport, da jump etc) and re-roll one OR both dice on charging... its not even close. Also evil sunz shenangans are icing on the green cake.

4: best upfront anti-tank units in the game...no. Smasha gunz are good as are traktor kannons, but they aren't OP nor are they the best. Also you can have 18 not just 15

I think he meant tankbustas which are amazing at killing vehicles. RR all hits and flat three damage is great. ESPECIALLY with a shoot twice strat.

5: Amazing detachment rules. I agree. Damn shame that GW doesn't know how to write them though. Or do you not find it odd that the BEST faction for Kommandos isn't blood axes, its Evil sunz, or that Warbikers are better taken as Bad Moonz instead of Evil Sunz?

I admit this bugs me. but not much you can do. Atleast evil sunz bikes and evil sunz wartrike can easily get first turn charge off.. which is very fluffy.

6: Evil sunz dont work without stratagems. you need the tellyporta strike in order to be competitive.

Again this isnt true. da jumping boyz turn one is amazing with evil sunz. sure tellyporting MANz and Deff dreads is dope.. but its hardly an easy mode win.

I always appreciate your contibutions to these threads. Cant back you up on this one though bro.

CaptainO wrote:
do boys in transport count towards the "+1 to psychic test per 10 boys within 6""?

No, they do not. Don't forget Power of the Waaaagh! was heavily nerfed, it now doesn't count Gretchin and is capped to +3.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

CaptainO wrote:
do boys in transport count towards the "+1 to psychic test per 10 boys within 6""?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do boys within transport count towards the "+1 to psychic test per 10 ork models within 6""?

No, they do not.

Gretchin don't count towards waaagh energy
EDIT: Ah, seems like you just fixed it

Yeah I was remembering the pre-nerf version.

So I finally won my first game with the ork codex. I currently 3-1 I haven't used the same list twice. I defeated a Magnus/Mortarian list, that was supported by bloodletters, pink horrors, some deamon princes.

My previous lists have been a death skull horde backed up by something else (warbikes, stormboyz)...

My list was as follows:
Evil Sunz Battalion
Zhadsnark
Wartrike
Biker Boss w/ relic klaw

3 units of 20 boyz

3 battlewagons
1 bonebreaker

6 mega nobz w/ power klawz

Bad Moonz Battalion
Big Mek w/ Bike KFF and Bad Moonz relic
Biker Boss w// relic klaw

3 units of 10 grotz

15 lootaz


Highlights
The 15 lootaz double shot and killed Magnus. I incorrectly used long uncontrolled burst on them to get +1 to hit. I should have just used More Dakka.
It took two rounds of combat with Zhadsnark a battlewagon and the biker boss to kill Motarion.
Battlewagons and bonebreakers put out alot of 2 damage wounds. They are way better and significantly cheaper than they used to be.
Boyz didn't do much...
The Gobstopper blunderbuss was useful on the Big mek.

Going forward I am thinking less boyz more bonebreakers and a couple of wierdboyz.

the_scotsman wrote:

gungo wrote:
When you guys say 2++ manz do you mean 1+ armor saves? I don’t see where you get 2++ which generally means invulnerable saves. And I don’t see 1+ armor saves as an issue since 1s always fail and there are plenty of -3 ap weapons in game.

If you remember, many months ago Games Workshop made the goofy decision to make "1" the lowest number that any die roll can be modified. At the time, this primarily impacted plasma, because instead of rolling like this

(plasmagun shooting unit with -1 to hit)

I roll a 1, 3, and 4.

The 3 becomes a 2, the 4 becomes a 3. But the 1 STAYS A 1, it doesn't become 0, so my model still dies having rolled a 1.

This means that a unit that makes it to a 1+ armor save fails on all unmodified rolls of 1, but is no longer affected by AP essentially, because:

I get shot by a lascannon with a 1+ armor save. I roll a 2, a 3, and a 4.

All of them get modified down to the minimum value - a 1, just like the plasma gun.

I have a 1+ armor save.

I still pass all those saves.

I think you calculate the save first and than check the 1+ rule. Like when your 1+ meganob gets shot by a lazcannon it geta a 2+, +1, -3 resulting in 4+.

Otherwise any unit with 2+ armor would get 2++ by your logic if they step in cover.

Don't see how what makes you think this rule goes before modifiers.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

CaptainO wrote:
do boys in transport count towards the "+1 to psychic test per 10 boys within 6""?

No, they do not. Don't forget Power of the Waaaagh! was heavily nerfed, it now doesn't count Gretchin and is capped to +3.

I think that is overstated. +3 to cast is fine most of the time, and now weirdboyz perils less often. Plus now there is no need to count and argue about how many models are within x number of inches.

Lots of biker bosses and KFF Big Meks out there in the competitive lists. Even seen a few Painboyz and Meks on bikes.

How do we fare if we use codex options and models only?

I want to prepare for the inevitable. I think GW will become more strict on the index options when they realise we can take big bomms on koptas and a few other options for free.

Also Semper is entitled to his opinion on the codex. Trying to argue with him about his opinion is futile and stupid. I can certainly see his point regarding our reliance on stratagems though. It will be interesting to see how we fare against DE when they shut down grot screen and kill that valuable, squishy unit.

The only reason index options were removed is the chapter house model equals rules.
The index has at least another year worth of codecs before it gets the power level treatment.
GW has to many models they still make that are index only.
Sisters, GSC, assassins, inquisitors and all those agents of imperium, khorne etc.... I honestly think after all those plus slannesh we will get chapter approved 2019 and be close to 9th edition where they do a rules consolidation of the way to many chapter approved changes and big faq changes gets rolled into 9th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I really like this list and it’s not far from what I was trying to do. https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/766395.page
Please tell me what works out best in that second detachment I like deathskulls

 koooaei wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

gungo wrote:
When you guys say 2++ manz do you mean 1+ armor saves? I don’t see where you get 2++ which generally means invulnerable saves. And I don’t see 1+ armor saves as an issue since 1s always fail and there are plenty of -3 ap weapons in game.

If you remember, many months ago Games Workshop made the goofy decision to make "1" the lowest number that any die roll can be modified. At the time, this primarily impacted plasma, because instead of rolling like this

(plasmagun shooting unit with -1 to hit)

I roll a 1, 3, and 4.

The 3 becomes a 2, the 4 becomes a 3. But the 1 STAYS A 1, it doesn't become 0, so my model still dies having rolled a 1.

This means that a unit that makes it to a 1+ armor save fails on all unmodified rolls of 1, but is no longer affected by AP essentially, because:

I get shot by a lascannon with a 1+ armor save. I roll a 2, a 3, and a 4.

All of them get modified down to the minimum value - a 1, just like the plasma gun.

I have a 1+ armor save.

I still pass all those saves.

I think you calculate the save first and than check the 1+ rule. Like when your 1+ meganob gets shot by a lazcannon it geta a 2+, +1, -3 resulting in 4+.

Otherwise any unit with 2+ armor would get 2++ by your logic if they step in cover.

Don't see how what makes you think this rule goes before modifiers.

This has been discussed in YMDC; let’s leave it there.

The difference is that “Loot It” modifies the save statistic, and cover modifies the save roll - negative AP modifies the save roll as well, not the statistic.

Per current rules, any roll lower than a 1 gets modified to 1 - which a 1+ save will succeed at. Only “natural” rolls of 1 fail; so it’s a 1/6 chance if you have a 1+ save.

No, this is not the way most people would play it - but it IS the way the rules, as written, and supported through faqs ARE written.

 Geemoney wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

CaptainO wrote:
do boys in transport count towards the "+1 to psychic test per 10 boys within 6""?

No, they do not. Don't forget Power of the Waaaagh! was heavily nerfed, it now doesn't count Gretchin and is capped to +3.

I think that is overstated. +3 to cast is fine most of the time, and now weirdboyz perils less often. Plus now there is no need to count and argue about how many models are within x number of inches.

I agree. The +3 is right about at the sweet spot.

Just noticed something...Warpheads still can only make one Deny the Witch roll per turn, correct?

tbh i'd rather it be capped at 3

It was super easy to auto-peril if you didnt position the weirdboy right.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
tbh i'd rather it be capped at 3

It was super easy to auto-peril if you didnt position the weirdboy right.

Especially when dajumping 30 or 40.

A competitively viable list with no boyz, only gretchins to fill your battalions - is it possible, and how will it look like?

 Trimarius wrote:

PuppetSoul wrote:

 Trimarius wrote:
What happens when your mounted Freeboota unit shoots at a Raven Guard unit? How do you measure if they're within 18"?

It says to measure distances from the vehicle hull when shooting; otherwise, even with infinite range they would never be in range to shoot anything.

That was part of my point. The vehicle is what's important, the passengers almost become equipment for it. So if the vehicle is getting the Freeboota +1 to hit, the boyz inside are too (otherwise the game falls apart).

I can't think of a way to give non-Freeboota models the +1 (since transports are klan locked besides the already Freeboota Flash Gitz), but you do run into some silly situations where you can give transported Gretchin the +1 or a unit in a Chinork a +1 to hit flyers with the flying vehicle only strat Long, Uncontrolled Bursts (again, only the transport matters, it passes modifiers on to the payload, however counter-intuitive that might be). Though I did just notice that Flash Gitz can't get into another clan's transports if they have any Ammo Runts, funnily enough, as the grots don't have the Flash Gitz tag, only the Freeboota tag. I guess everyone else is afraid the runts are incontinent?

It gets really awkward when you have to define what "modifiers" means, though. Obviously +/- to a roll is pretty straightforward, but what about rerolls? More Dakka? I'd definitely say they modify the result of the action, but should they count? Now we're into contentious territory.


-Edit-
CaptainO - No, the boyz basically don't exist while inside a transport. They wouldn't even count if they were embarked in the same transport, as there's nothing to measure to. Kaptain Badrukk doesn't let Flash Gitz he's riding with reroll 1s, for example, even though they're presumably rubbing shoulders in that trukk.

Thank you for rules lawyering with me/all of us! The Long Uncontrolled Bursts stratagem is very clever with chinorks transporting Tankbustaz against any vehicles with the FLY keyword. The TO has agreed that this stratagem will definitely affect embarked units as per Open Topped saying “ANY modifiers” that affect the transport affect the units embarked. The problem with the freebooterz kultur seems to hinge on it being an “aura ability.” There is an faq in the Battle Primer errata, under the Transports section, that specifically mentions Open Topped and says that “aura abilities” do not affect embarked units, so my main questions now are: “what is an ability?” and “what is an aura?” To me, an ability is something listed on a Datasheet between the weapons profiles and the keywords. A kultur is something separate from that. I’m very likely wrong on this point. And then based on the dictionary definition (I can’t find a 40k definition) an aura emanates from something/a unit (from which the buff is measured) to affect another unit (the end point of that measurement). However, the wording on freebooterz kultur specifies that the unit receiving the buff is the starting point for the measurement, which is technically the same thing as measuring from the buffing unit for measurement purposes, but it is very different from how auras are normally worded (i.e. “units with x inches of the buffing unit receive the buff”); freebooterz kultur says “Add 1 to hit rolls for attacks made by models with this kultur if any other friendly unit with this kultur within 24” has destroyed an enemy unit this phase,” so the point of measurement is reversed. Does any of this matter?

A modifier is actually undefined in the rulebook, but generally seen as +/- X effects that are applied to dice.
Aura abilities are defined as "abilities that affect certainmodels within a given range".
-

The problem with the current situation I'm having is that "Long Uncontrolled Bursts" is a modifier, that is in effect when the model shoots a unit with FLY - so far, this is all fine; Open Topped transfer this.
"Freebooterz Kultur" is ALSO a modifier, which is triggered if a unit within 24" (of the vehicle) has killed a unit during the round.
-

My take is that;

The "Freebooterz Kultur" does NOT effect the unit that is embarked inside the vehicle; since they're "not affected by auras", and you physically can't measure to "within' 24" - HOWEVER, the Kultur DOES affect the vehicle - who, per Open Topped rules, would transfer it to the passengers.

We should take this to YMDC, but, this is how I'm looking at it.
EDIT: Have taken it to YMDC: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/766858.page#10230720

I am seeing a lot of chatter on what models in an open topped transport can and can't do.

If I have 10 Freebooter Flashgitz in an Open Topped Freebooter Battlewagon and Kaptin Badrukk is standing outside of the Battle but within 6 inches, all the Flashgitz get re-rolls of 1 still. To make that clear thats Badrukk standing next to the battlewagon, not in it

karandrasss wrote:
A competitively viable list with no boyz, only gretchins to fill your battalions - is it possible, and how will it look like?

Don't know how viable this one will be but I'm planning on testing it out on Saturday:

Batallion

Smashboss
Weirdboy

10 Nobz (3 Big Choppas, 2 PK, 5 dual choppa)
10 Nobz (3 Big Choppas, 2 PK, 5 dual choppa)
10 Nobz (3 Big Choppas, 2 PK, 5 dual choppa)

15 Tankbustas

10 x Grots
10 x Grots
10 x Grots

3 Smasha Gunz
Battlewagon, Kannon, Wreckin' Ball

Spearhead

Deffkilla Wartrike
Big Mek on Warbike w/PK

Bonecrusha, Kannon
Bonecrusha, Kannon
Bonecrusha

Whole thing has Deffskull Kultur.

BW probably goes in Tellyporta with Tankbustas, the Bonecrushas and bike bosses just charge forward turn 1, possible turn 1 charges, Nobz, Boss and Weirdboy get out next turn and beat face. Grots hold objectives and cheer.

 Elfric wrote:
I am seeing a lot of chatter on what models in an open topped transport can and can't do.

If I have 10 Freebooter Flashgitz in an Open Topped Freebooter Battlewagon and Kaptin Badrukk is standing outside of the Battle but within 6 inches, all the Flashgitz get re-rolls of 1 still. To make that clear thats Badrukk standing next to the battlewagon, not in it

That's incorrect, as those Flash Gitz are not within 6" of Kaptin Badrukk, so they do not get re-rolls.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Elfric wrote:
I am seeing a lot of chatter on what models in an open topped transport can and can't do.

If I have 10 Freebooter Flashgitz in an Open Topped Freebooter Battlewagon and Kaptin Badrukk is standing outside of the Battle but within 6 inches, all the Flashgitz get re-rolls of 1 still. To make that clear thats Badrukk standing next to the battlewagon, not in it

That's incorrect, as those Flash Gitz are not within 6" of Kaptin Badrukk, so they do not get re-rolls.

I really hope they change that when it comes to open topped, because that's just dumb tbh

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Geemoney wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

CaptainO wrote:
do boys in transport count towards the "+1 to psychic test per 10 boys within 6""?

No, they do not. Don't forget Power of the Waaaagh! was heavily nerfed, it now doesn't count Gretchin and is capped to +3.

I think that is overstated. +3 to cast is fine most of the time, and now weirdboyz perils less often. Plus now there is no need to count and argue about how many models are within x number of inches.

I agree. The +3 is right about at the sweet spot.

Just noticed something...Warpheads still can only make one Deny the Witch roll per turn, correct?

That is correct.

That's not uncommon though. Most psykers can cast two powers and deny one.

Thanks to all those for clarifying the +1 to psychic tests for me.

1 game 1 win Vrs Astra Militarum. I understand when people say we're reliant on stratagems to be good but damn, they sure make us good. I've literally written out a check list for the strats I'm going to use. I'm running a evil sunz Brigade and I'm taking the "follow me ladz" warlord trait to eek out that extra CP for a total of 16 CP.

Pre game I spend
2 CP: telaporta gorkanaut with 5 Nobz inside (wait out on the errata to see if this us legal)
2 CP: Ardboyz to make a 30 man squad 5+(to be "da jumped" T1)
2 CP for prepared position if I go second (I'm down to 12 drops so I might even get a +1 to role (I play guard and orks...I never normally get this) Obviously if I go first I can use this
T1 i then use
1 CP Loot it to be used on ardboyz particularly if I'm going second resulting in my 30 man blob have a 3+ save (combined with prepared position) This is especially ridiculous when combined with
1 CP grot shield giving an additional 2+ save after losing a wound (If I deploy my pain boy outside his battle wagon there will even be a 6+ FNP before the 2+ grot shield save)
3 CP get stuck in (probably used on my 30 man Ardboy unit once they get, "da jumped" ideally with a 4+ save (a la 3rd edition ork ard boyz) to mitigate overwatch
3 CP unstopable green tide on 30 ardboyz (we'll see in the erratta if they keep their 5+ save but I'm not holding my breath) still 30 bonus boyz who only need an 8" charge deepstriking is awesome

If in the statistically likely event I actually get to go first I won't need prepared positions, no need to use grot shield and unable to use loot it so I'll have 2 to 4 "spare" CPs remaining which would be situationally dependent although I'm keen to hear opinions.
2 CP More dakka on teleporting gorkanaut (This would definitely be used if the proposed target had a -1 to hit)
2 CP Orks never die on my biker boss with killa klaw (used if the boss is in cc with a Knight or big bastard)
2 CP on ramming speed either on the deep striking gorkanaut to guarantee a successful charge (8" on 3D6 & "ere we go") or on of my "starting on board" battlewagons in a hope to get a T1 charge, especially if the 30 da jumped boyz fail their 8" charge (no "ere we go" for the battlewagon though)

I can lob up my battlescribe list if people are curious.

I'm also tempted to run the 30 Ard boyz as shootas as once they "da jumped" the 18" assault range could have touch a lot of units behind the inevitable screen. The sluggas 12" range means they could only shoot the unit they wanted to charge resulting in the possibility of the cc targets taking away closest models and increasing the required charge. As a 20+ unit they get 3 attacks each anyway which can take care of most targets (especially if "get stuck in" is used). Statistically they'll actually forces more S4 wounds too (if I didn't shoot the sluggas). Thanks to DDD 60 shootas result in 23.33 (60 x 1/3 + 10 x 1/3) s4 wound roles versus 30 additional cc attacks (30 x 2/3) which would result in only 20 s4 wound roles.

A complete lack of Ranged weapons is my "major issue" but the plan is to get my guys into as much cc as possible.

Anyway I'm always interested in peoples thoughts

CaptainO wrote:
Thanks to all those for clarifying the +1 to psychic tests for me.

1 game 1 win Vrs Astra Militarum. I understand when people say we're reliant on stratagems to be good but damn, they sure make us good. I've literally written out a check list for the strats I'm going to use. I'm running a evil sunz Brigade and I'm taking the "follow me ladz" warlord trait to eek out that extra CP for a total of 16 CP.

Pre game I spend
2 CP: telaporta gorkanaut with 5 Nobz inside (wait out on the errata to see if this us legal)
2 CP: Ardboyz to make a 30 man squad 5+(to be "da jumped" T1)
2 CP for prepared position if I go second (I'm down to 12 drops so I might even get a +1 to role (I play guard and orks...I never normally get this) Obviously if I go first I can use this
T1 i then use
1 CP Loot it to be used on ardboyz particularly if I'm going second resulting in my 30 man blob have a 3+ save (combined with prepared position) This is especially ridiculous when combined with
1 CP grot shield giving an additional 2+ save after losing a wound (If I deploy my pain boy outside his battle wagon there will even be a 6+ FNP before the 2+ grot shield save)
3 CP get stuck in (probably used on my 30 man Ardboy unit once they get, "da jumped" ideally with a 4+ save (a la 3rd edition ork ard boyz) to mitigate overwatch
3 CP unstopable green tide on 30 ardboyz (we'll see in the erratta if they keep their 5+ save but I'm not holding my breath) still 30 bonus boyz who only need an 8" charge deepstriking is awesome

If in the statistically likely event I actually get to go first I won't need prepared positions, no need to use grot shield and unable to use loot it so I'll have 2 to 4 "spare" CPs remaining which would be situationally dependent although I'm keen to hear opinions.
2 CP More dakka on teleporting gorkanaut (This would definitely be used if the proposed target had a -1 to hit)
2 CP Orks never die on my biker boss with killa klaw (used if the boss is in cc with a Knight or big bastard)
2 CP on ramming speed either on the deep striking gorkanaut to guarantee a successful charge (8" on 3D6 & "ere we go") or on of my "starting on board" battlewagons in a hope to get a T1 charge, especially if the 30 da jumped boyz fail their 8" charge (no "ere we go" for the battlewagon though)

I can lob up my battlescribe list if people are curious.

I'm also tempted to run the 30 Ard boyz as shootas as once they "da jumped" the 18" assault range could have touch a lot of units behind the inevitable screen. The sluggas 12" range means they could only shoot the unit they wanted to charge resulting in the possibility of the cc targets taking away closest models and increasing the required charge. As a 20+ unit they get 3 attacks each anyway which can take care of most targets (especially if "get stuck in" is used). Statistically they'll actually forces more S4 wounds too (if I didn't shoot the sluggas). Thanks to DDD 60 shootas result in 23.33 (60 x 1/3 + 10 x 1/3) s4 wound roles versus 30 additional cc attacks (30 x 2/3) which would result in only 20 s4 wound roles.

A complete lack of Ranged weapons is my "major issue" but the plan is to get my guys into as much cc as possible.

Anyway I'm always interested in peoples thoughts

I think you're heavily overinvesting in those boyz tbh. My normal lists start with either 13 or 15 CP (usually 13, double batt is just much more flexible than brigade I've found and the extra 2 is rarely a game changer) and I typically spend

2CP - teleport something threatening. Gorka or triple deff dreads or 5-ish manz. So far I've liked the triple dreads, because you dilute the odds and it doesn't feel like you're betting your whole turn 2 tempo on not getting 2 unlucky 2d6 rolls.

'Ard boyz, Prepared positions - never. Waste of CP when I can spend a relatively small amount of points on a KFF that will protect almost everything my opponent is likely to target. The wazboom jet is becoming one of my favorite units in the codex because of this: it combines the protection of the KFF with an added layer of being a relatively durable fire magnet my opponent will try and take off the board first, usually unsuccessfully.

typically I spend 1cp to Mob Up a unit of 10 boyz with a unit of 30 boyz to da jump them. That adds more durability than 'ard boyz does, costs half the CP, and lets me fill two troops slots with my boyz distraction carnifex rather than 1. I will Loot it with those boyz if my opponent goes first and pops a vehicle of some sort, but so far I haven't done so.

some games I have spent 1cp to upgrade a weirdboy to a warphead. Getting Fists of Gork on the table is typically worthwhile but IMO not worth 62 points. It depends if my opponent has a big threat on the table that I want to missile the killa klawboss into, like a solo knight I'm not going to be able to down with my shooting.

So I spend about 3-4 CP on my setup, and unless I get the perfect hail-mary into the enemy lines with minimum casualties to my boyz I probably won't dump 3CP on fighting twice. So far the stratagems I've gotten the most value out of have been Long Uncontrolled Bursts on the wazboom to take down enemy flyers, More Dakka on tankbustas who have the +1BS freeboota kultur popped, and Ramming Speed to guarantee a charge out of deep strike with some mortal wounds. I don't usually run dry on CP until turn 3.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Elfric wrote:
I am seeing a lot of chatter on what models in an open topped transport can and can't do.

If I have 10 Freebooter Flashgitz in an Open Topped Freebooter Battlewagon and Kaptin Badrukk is standing outside of the Battle but within 6 inches, all the Flashgitz get re-rolls of 1 still. To make that clear thats Badrukk standing next to the battlewagon, not in it

That's incorrect, as those Flash Gitz are not within 6" of Kaptin Badrukk, so they do not get re-rolls.

That's ridiculous because if they are technically not on the board then neither are their snazz gunz

Core Rules wrote:Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way whilst they are embarked.

Open Topped wrote:Models embarked on this model can attack in their Shooting phase. Measure the range and draw line of sight from any point on this model. When they do so, any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers;...

The rule may be ridiculous, but it seems to me to be pretty clear. Open-topped allows those "off the board" snazz guns to fire with a specific exemption to the transport rules, but does not offer a similar exemption to allow the flash gits to be affected by auras. If the transport itself were affected by the aura, and the aura gives the transport a "modifier" or "restriction", then I would argue that the embarked unit is also affected by that modifier or restriction. If the aura grants an ability, though (such as reroll 1's), I would argue that RAW it does not propagate to the embarked unit (much like mobile fortress doesn't propagate per the faq).

Coh Magnussen wrote:

Core Rules wrote:Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way whilst they are embarked.

Open Topped wrote:Models embarked on this model can attack in their Shooting phase. Measure the range and draw line of sight from any point on this model. When they do so, any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers;...

The rule may be ridiculous, but it seems to me to be pretty clear. Open-topped allows those "off the board" snazz guns to fire with a specific exemption to the transport rules, but does not offer a similar exemption to allow the flash gits to be affected by auras. If the transport itself were affected by the aura, and the aura gives the transport a "modifier" or "restriction", then I would argue that the embarked unit is also affected by that modifier or restriction. If the aura grants an ability, though (such as reroll 1's), I would argue that RAW it does not propagate to the embarked unit (much like mobile fortress doesn't propagate per the faq).

There is a specific FAQ/errata response preventing embarked units from being affected by any character's aura ability.

I would pretty strongly argue though that the existence of a distance measurement does not make the Freeboota +1 to hit an "aura" instead of a "modifier" because of the same example mentioned above: Raven Guard/Alaitoc tactics. If you were playing against Raven Guard, you would measure from the trukk to the target, and if the distance is over 12", the trukk gets a -1 to hit modifier, which transfers to the passengers.

In exactly the same way, if you're playing as freebootas, you measure from the trukk to the allied unit that destroyed an enemy unit that phase, if the distance is under 24", the trukk gets +1 to hit modifier, which transfers to the passengers.

A unit within an open topped transport clearly retains any abilities that the unit has natively (this is explicitly called out in the Harlequins codex, where in the Open topped rule in their transports there's a parenthetical that tells players to remember that embarked harlequins can still shoot if the transport falls back, because of an ability that the infantry have to do that.) Because detachment rules are worded as "All <subfaction> units gain the following ability" that applies to subfaction abilities as well as abilities that appear on the datasheet of the embarked unit. Additionally, they are affected by shooting modifiers that apply to the transport - in this case, a +1 to hit modifier applied by an ally, in other cases, -1 to hit modifiers applied by enemies.

 Glane wrote:

karandrasss wrote:
A competitively viable list with no boyz, only gretchins to fill your battalions - is it possible, and how will it look like?

Don't know how viable this one will be but I'm planning on testing it out on Saturday:

Batallion

Smashboss
Weirdboy

10 Nobz (3 Big Choppas, 2 PK, 5 dual choppa)
10 Nobz (3 Big Choppas, 2 PK, 5 dual choppa)
10 Nobz (3 Big Choppas, 2 PK, 5 dual choppa)

15 Tankbustas

10 x Grots
10 x Grots
10 x Grots

3 Smasha Gunz
Battlewagon, Kannon, Wreckin' Ball

Spearhead

Deffkilla Wartrike
Big Mek on Warbike w/PK

Bonecrusha, Kannon
Bonecrusha, Kannon
Bonecrusha

Whole thing has Deffskull Kultur.

BW probably goes in Tellyporta with Tankbustas, the Bonecrushas and bike bosses just charge forward turn 1, possible turn 1 charges, Nobz, Boss and Weirdboy get out next turn and beat face. Grots hold objectives and cheer.

You've managed to put together an ork list that is going to be hard pressed to remove screens that will bog you down. I would do away with the tellyportad TB BW, if you want you should just deepstrike them on foot. Invest in something to deal with screens, dakkajet would do if you're specifically avoiding dajumped Boyz, though being evil sunz they would be really neat to open up the board for your bonebreakers. Also what's the point of a big mek on bike or you're not going to take KFF! Take a KFF and your BBBWs are now 5++ .

Blood Axe Ard Boyz with prepared positions have +3 Armor turn 1, and could be 2+ if you lose a vehicle near them. All that armor save could be used with Grot screens the first time a bucket of dice goes for your Orkmarines

 Rismonite wrote:
Blood Axe Ard Boyz with prepared positions have +3 Armor turn 1, and could be 2+ if you lose a vehicle near them. All that armor save could be used with Grot screens the first time a bucket of dice goes for your Orkmarines

Wrong, prepared positions does not increase your save by 1, it places all of your units into cover. Which is exactly what the blood axe trait gives you. So they don't stack.

Sluggaloo wrote:

 Rismonite wrote:
Blood Axe Ard Boyz with prepared positions have +3 Armor turn 1, and could be 2+ if you lose a vehicle near them. All that armor save could be used with Grot screens the first time a bucket of dice goes for your Orkmarines

Wrong, prepared positions does not increase your save by 1, it places all of your units into cover. Which is exactly what the blood axe trait gives you. So they don't stack.

Lol damn someone got me before I fixed it

the_scotsman wrote:

CaptainO wrote:
Thanks to all those for clarifying the +1 to psychic tests for me.

1 game 1 win Vrs Astra Militarum. I understand when people say we're reliant on stratagems to be good but damn, they sure make us good. I've literally written out a check list for the strats I'm going to use. I'm running a evil sunz Brigade and I'm taking the "follow me ladz" warlord trait to eek out that extra CP for a total of 16 CP.

Pre game I spend
2 CP: telaporta gorkanaut with 5 Nobz inside (wait out on the errata to see if this us legal)
2 CP: Ardboyz to make a 30 man squad 5+(to be "da jumped" T1)
2 CP for prepared position if I go second (I'm down to 12 drops so I might even get a +1 to role (I play guard and orks...I never normally get this) Obviously if I go first I can use this
T1 i then use
1 CP Loot it to be used on ardboyz particularly if I'm going second resulting in my 30 man blob have a 3+ save (combined with prepared position) This is especially ridiculous when combined with
1 CP grot shield giving an additional 2+ save after losing a wound (If I deploy my pain boy outside his battle wagon there will even be a 6+ FNP before the 2+ grot shield save)
3 CP get stuck in (probably used on my 30 man Ardboy unit once they get, "da jumped" ideally with a 4+ save (a la 3rd edition ork ard boyz) to mitigate overwatch
3 CP unstopable green tide on 30 ardboyz (we'll see in the erratta if they keep their 5+ save but I'm not holding my breath) still 30 bonus boyz who only need an 8" charge deepstriking is awesome

If in the statistically likely event I actually get to go first I won't need prepared positions, no need to use grot shield and unable to use loot it so I'll have 2 to 4 "spare" CPs remaining which would be situationally dependent although I'm keen to hear opinions.
2 CP More dakka on teleporting gorkanaut (This would definitely be used if the proposed target had a -1 to hit)
2 CP Orks never die on my biker boss with killa klaw (used if the boss is in cc with a Knight or big bastard)
2 CP on ramming speed either on the deep striking gorkanaut to guarantee a successful charge (8" on 3D6 & "ere we go") or on of my "starting on board" battlewagons in a hope to get a T1 charge, especially if the 30 da jumped boyz fail their 8" charge (no "ere we go" for the battlewagon though)

I can lob up my battlescribe list if people are curious.

I'm also tempted to run the 30 Ard boyz as shootas as once they "da jumped" the 18" assault range could have touch a lot of units behind the inevitable screen. The sluggas 12" range means they could only shoot the unit they wanted to charge resulting in the possibility of the cc targets taking away closest models and increasing the required charge. As a 20+ unit they get 3 attacks each anyway which can take care of most targets (especially if "get stuck in" is used). Statistically they'll actually forces more S4 wounds too (if I didn't shoot the sluggas). Thanks to DDD 60 shootas result in 23.33 (60 x 1/3 + 10 x 1/3) s4 wound roles versus 30 additional cc attacks (30 x 2/3) which would result in only 20 s4 wound roles.

A complete lack of Ranged weapons is my "major issue" but the plan is to get my guys into as much cc as possible.

Anyway I'm always interested in peoples thoughts

I think you're heavily overinvesting in those boyz tbh. My normal lists start with either 13 or 15 CP (usually 13, double batt is just much more flexible than brigade I've found and the extra 2 is rarely a game changer) and I typically spend

2CP - teleport something threatening. Gorka or triple deff dreads or 5-ish manz. So far I've liked the triple dreads, because you dilute the odds and it doesn't feel like you're betting your whole turn 2 tempo on not getting 2 unlucky 2d6 rolls.

'Ard boyz, Prepared positions - never. Waste of CP when I can spend a relatively small amount of points on a KFF that will protect almost everything my opponent is likely to target. The wazboom jet is becoming one of my favorite units in the codex because of this: it combines the protection of the KFF with an added layer of being a relatively durable fire magnet my opponent will try and take off the board first, usually unsuccessfully.

typically I spend 1cp to Mob Up a unit of 10 boyz with a unit of 30 boyz to da jump them. That adds more durability than 'ard boyz does, costs half the CP, and lets me fill two troops slots with my boyz distraction carnifex rather than 1. I will Loot it with those boyz if my opponent goes first and pops a vehicle of some sort, but so far I haven't done so.

some games I have spent 1cp to upgrade a weirdboy to a warphead. Getting Fists of Gork on the table is typically worthwhile but IMO not worth 62 points. It depends if my opponent has a big threat on the table that I want to missile the killa klawboss into, like a solo knight I'm not going to be able to down with my shooting.

So I spend about 3-4 CP on my setup, and unless I get the perfect hail-mary into the enemy lines with minimum casualties to my boyz I probably won't dump 3CP on fighting twice. So far the stratagems I've gotten the most value out of have been Long Uncontrolled Bursts on the wazboom to take down enemy flyers, More Dakka on tankbustas who have the +1BS freeboota kultur popped, and Ramming Speed to guarantee a charge out of deep strike with some mortal wounds. I don't usually run dry on CP until turn 3.

Cheers dude thats useful stuff. My list is below:



Based off the last game the plan is deploy in this order (I've found that with "horde" armies a clear plan on the order of deployment saves valuable time for ITC games):



The prepared position strat is actually more for the two battlewagons and the 3 squads of bikes bringing both their saves to 3+. They'll all start under the KFF too.

I've never looked into the Wazboom before... Now I want one. Thanks for that. I'd be able to replace the Big Mek (losing the ability to repair the battlewagons though) with KFF with the Wazboom with a KFF if I found points elsewhere. The prepped position would make it a 3+ too...

Mobbing up to 40 boyz would ensure they get into combat with the 20+ needed for the +1 attack. An extra 10 man sqaud will cost 70pts so its whether I can justify paying that to free up 1 CP. CPs are like gold dust though. Those 10 boyz result in an additional drop. It would be interesting info if ITC or equivalent stated what the average number of drops currently is.

I used the 30 boyz to charge and tie up the bubble in front. 30 boyz strung out in a line 9" away with the aim of engaging as many AM infantry as possible. Obviously 0Ap lasguns helped but the eavy armour meant they only took like 1 casualty.

Do you run sluggas or Shootas?

An interesting strategy I saw is that more dakka causes DDD to proc on 5s and 6s, and DDD causes auto-hits and extra shots.

So, if you move a squad of lootas, and hit em with the more dakka strat, they're back up to hitting on 5s thanks to DDD.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
An interesting strategy I saw is that more dakka causes DDD to proc on 5s and 6s, and DDD causes auto-hits and extra shots.

So, if you move a squad of lootas, and hit em with the more dakka strat, they're back up to hitting on 5s thanks to DDD.

But why though? They have 48" range? They are more of a sit and shoot unit.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
An interesting strategy I saw is that more dakka causes DDD to proc on 5s and 6s, and DDD causes auto-hits and extra shots.

So, if you move a squad of lootas, and hit em with the more dakka strat, they're back up to hitting on 5s thanks to DDD.

But why though? They have 48" range? They are more of a sit and shoot unit.

BECUZ ITZ KRUMPIN TIME!!!

ArmchairArbiter wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
An interesting strategy I saw is that more dakka causes DDD to proc on 5s and 6s, and DDD causes auto-hits and extra shots.

So, if you move a squad of lootas, and hit em with the more dakka strat, they're back up to hitting on 5s thanks to DDD.

But why though? They have 48" range? They are more of a sit and shoot unit.

BECUZ ITZ KRUMPIN TIME!!!

Ya krump wit' ya booleets, ya git. Ya see, proppa orks carve da booleets inta fists, so dey can punch gitz while dey shoot 'em


I swear, the You See Ivan meme was built for Orks

I know this isn't tactics related but I did not want to create a whole new thread for it.

Did the Ork Boyz box come with 25mm bases before this most recent Codex? and they upgraded to 32mm? Or did they just give the box a face lift?

I've been seeing a lot of love for duel choppa nobs. But is it that much better then paying 5pts for one less attack and going BC Choppa?

vindicare0412 wrote:
I've been seeing a lot of love for duel choppa nobs. But is it that much better then paying 5pts for one less attack and going BC Choppa?

It does bump the points up from 14 to 19 and dilutes the unit's role a bit IMO. those choppa attacks aren't gonna do much if you're sending them against vehicles or 2W elites.

imo, bigchoppas help a ton but are hardly mandatory.

5 S5 attacks each (3+2 choppa) or 3 S7 +1 S5 (Bigchop + chop). Large majority of things theyre gonna hit is T4 anyway, both strength values wound them on 3s.
I'd take bigchoppas if you expect your nobz to collide with T5+ stuff, where then it would start showing a difference.

Have to admit though the idea of 10 chopchop nobz swinging 60 S5 dice sounds very amusing (Warpath for 6th attack)

So I have a game against dark angels tonight. Plan is to quickly engage plasma units and vehicles and Krump em. Than tailor plan from there. Deep striking the dread move advance and charge everything else. Any specific thoughts on tactics vs dark angels?

CP spending
Ork pregame
1cp Telly porta
1 cp warphead
1 cp extra gubbins

In game
2cp ramming speed
1 cp billowing exhaust
3cp Attack again
2cp Attack after death
List

TheunlikelyGamer wrote:

1cp Telly porta

Check the codex

2 CP for telaporta

ArmchairArbiter wrote:
I know this isn't tactics related but I did not want to create a whole new thread for it.

Did the Ork Boyz box come with 25mm bases before this most recent Codex? and they upgraded to 32mm? Or did they just give the box a face lift?

Boyz are now on 32mm bases. Since RaW you can put them on any base you want from a 2mm to a 60mm base, it's a moot point. However, allegedly the general consensus is to use the base your actual models came with and don't try to play silly buggers with it. TO's are free to House Rule however they want so make sure you confirm with them beforehand. If you're just starting out you're better off just putting on 32's to begin with to save yourself tears and tantrums in the future. If you already have 25mm based Boyz my advice is to either glue them on top of 32s, hollow out 32's so they wrap around the 25 and extend your basing, or just zogging re-base them.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
An interesting strategy I saw is that more dakka causes DDD to proc on 5s and 6s, and DDD causes auto-hits and extra shots.

So, if you move a squad of lootas, and hit em with the more dakka strat, they're back up to hitting on 5s thanks to DDD.

But why though? They have 48" range? They are more of a sit and shoot unit.

Like do what i did today. Out of los, da jump(or move if speed enough), shoot. Safe from enemy shooting. Good if you have 2-3 units that you want to protect(for me loota and tank busta) as if enemy sees both i can just choose which he shoots. Plus any high damage weapon would be killing orks a lot anyway grots or not

I even had kunning but brutal to ensure they are out of los if i go second. In los if i go first

The one real good thing about orks vs plasma spam is generally orks don’t care about plasma spam... becuase overcharged and regular plasma have the same rolls to kill an ork boy however!!! Plasma spam really messes up high armor save 2 wound models...in other words warbikers and Meganobz are not a fan of plasma!!! Vs dark angels plasma spam you want boyz or grots to eat that overwatch!!!! He is going to tear up your warbikers!!!

gungo wrote:
The one real good thing about orks vs plasma spam is generally orks don’t care about plasma spam... becuase overcharged and regular plasma have the same rolls to kill an ork boy however!!! Plasma spam really messes up high armor save 2 wound models...in other words warbikers and Meganobz are not a fan of plasma!!! Vs dark angels plasma spam you want boyz or grots to eat that overwatch!!!! He is going to tear up your warbikers!!!

Plasma s7. To kill on 2 needs overcharge so even better for orks

gungo wrote:
The one real good thing about orks vs plasma spam is generally orks don’t care about plasma spam... becuase overcharged and regular plasma have the same rolls to kill an ork boy however!!! Plasma spam really messes up high armor save 2 wound models...in other words warbikers and Meganobz are not a fan of plasma!!! Vs dark angels plasma spam you want boyz or grots to eat that overwatch!!!! He is going to tear up your warbikers!!!

I imagined this screamed at absolute maximum volume, and it made the post that much more enjoyable.

Tuesday game night I had to skip due to fever. On flipside it gave me 13h paint session + painting on wednesday so got basically all critical ork painting done for now so can concentrate on titans again for a while. Anyway for today I had game against rookie(this would be his 2nd game in 8th. Had played in 4th ed or so) so I opted to not bring up all tooled up list. Wanted to try out lots of my scratch build mek guns though so:

Evil sun battallion:

trike w/kunning but brutal, super cybork body
weirdboy(fist of gork)
10xgrot
2x30 boyz(one with 10 shootas and big choppa, one with power klaw)

Death skull battallion:

mek w/SAG
2xweirdboy(da jump)
4x10 grots
30xboyz(19 shoota, big choppa)
10xtank busta
15xloota
4xsmasha gun+3xtraktor gun+2xkmk

After coming with list I remembered hadn't he mentioned his faction sometime before? Double check and oh yes...And it was dark eldars! Priority orders received! Forget about winning. I don't care about that. I just want to KIIIIIIIIL! I have won vs dark eldars before(once literally killing no models...) but killing them has been issue all the time(1.5"+ tall places enough and you can't assault them and index orks couldn't shoot either...). However I thought these mek guns might be bit much against rookie so I toned down list leaving 2 of each and took up 5 bikes with big choppa nob instead.

He had archon, squad of kabalites in raider, wyches in raider, incubi on venom, wracks on raider with haemonoculus something, some 4w monsters, talon, 3 jetbikes, 2 ravagers with dark lances. Oh and some flyer with S6 d6 missiles, 2 dark lances and splinter guns.

We got race to victory as scenario. I put up fast stuff on left, guns on center, dethskull boys and lootas on right. Evil sun boys into deep strike. As he got 1st turn though I used warlord trait to reposition stuff. Lootas went to my far right outside LOS, evil sun grots were repositioned left and front of trike to ensure his flier can't park next to my warlord and snipe him. I btw am starting to love this warlord trait.

T1 dark eldar. He moved forward and shot. And boy what a horrible luck. Dark lances struggled to wound mek guns so best he got was 5 wounds to both traktor kannons. Some death skull boys died(guess who forgot 6++ now that I think about it...) but all in all light.

T1 orks. I had kill unit in h2h. Well I'm an ork. I don't think too much if it's smart if there's chance to kill stuff in h2h so trike+bikes raced toward the 4W guys. Other than that I just shuffled around. Psychic da jump repositioned lootas back into position they could shoot at dark eldar vehicles. Fist of gork to trike. Shooting. This was fun. I started with smasha guns against raider with wyches dropping it to 4 wounds. Traktor kannon 1 bounced on 5++. Traktor kannon 2 failed to wound but command CP and wound and through save. 5 wounds and autoexplosion which took 3 more wounds to the one with kabalite warriors. Lootas fired up with more dakka and took that down too. And tank bustas vs flier dropped it down to 5 wounds.

I might have trippled my lifetime wounds caused vs dark eldars? Too bad attack against monsters went less stellar. 4 wounds past inv saves but after wound rolls and feel no pains only 1 died and 1 was down to 1 wound and regular bikes failed utterly.

T2 dark eldar. Wracks and incubi disembarked and prepared to charge trike. Whoops. Monsters fell back to allow shooting vs trike and bikes. Some haywire dark eldars appeared out of deep strike to my right killing weirdboy that had da jumped lootas but that's all right. I had 1 more and he ensured lootas were well out of charge range from deep strikers if that would have been his plan. Shooting and his atrocious luck(seriously 3 dark lances hit and fail to wound...And this happened twice in this game) but flyer did get the traktor kannons finished off at least. Grots were dying but those are sacrificiable. H2h and my trike was charged by everything but somehow survived with 3 wounds suffered. I even panicked and used counter attack but failed to kill haemonoculus(sp) warlord. Damn inv+fnp.

T2 orks. Time to bring in more orks. One mob appeared behind wracks to help my trike. Second went right behind kabalite. Not that it was best ideas(wyches nearby) but I want to kiiiiil and I had 2 cards depending on killing stuff on h2h. Another was clear center. Magic. I tried da jump further into safety but failed. Fist of gork again. Shooting. Lootas split with more dakka. 3(no LOS to vehicles) to the haywire guys but failed to kill anything. Rest shot at ravager. 16 wounds and FNP was useless. Tank bustas blew out the flyer out of the sky. Mek guns didn't do much this turn nor did big mek w/SAG.

H2h. Boys make charge and kill bunch of wracks and all kabalite warriors(2 vp's there). Trike then decided rather than 4++ hq that is wounding me on 6 anyway let's kill incubi. 8 attacks. 6 hits, 6 wounds, 5 past armour save. Scratch squad of incubi....WAIT? Only 1 died? That was 4 1's for damage followed by 3 6's and one 2 wound followed by double 6...

You got to be kidding me!

Well to be fair neither did he do much and I was still sitting there with 3 wounds.

T3 dark eldar. More wracks deep striked and charged boys on right that were sandwiched by archon and wyches. Ouch. Talos charged trike boss. Shooting saw stuff here and there die but not much. I still had 2 KMK and smasha gun left(his rolling...). H2h both boys unit took horrendous damage though wyches and wracks died in return. Trike boss barely died as well. Morale phase I rolled 6 for BOTH boys unit losing 8 from both. OUCH OUCH OUCH.

We started T3 but realized we had 15 minutes to pack and leave before place close. I would have got 3 advance(2 grots+weirdboy) and was going to get another vp. Defend same objective front of talos&co would have been tough. But I had got evil sun boys out of combat at least so would have used lootas, tank bustas and mek guns to shoot at talos, bikes and other stuff so I think I might have been able to do that. Even without that though it was 9-7(I think something like that. 2-3 vp lead anyway) win for orks.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

ArmchairArbiter wrote:
I know this isn't tactics related but I did not want to create a whole new thread for it.

Did the Ork Boyz box come with 25mm bases before this most recent Codex? and they upgraded to 32mm? Or did they just give the box a face lift?

Boyz are now on 32mm bases. Since RaW you can put them on any base you want from a 2mm to a 60mm base, it's a moot point. However, allegedly the general consensus is to use the base your actual models came with and don't try to play silly buggers with it. TO's are free to House Rule however they want so make sure you confirm with them beforehand. If you're just starting out you're better off just putting on 32's to begin with to save yourself tears and tantrums in the future. If you already have 25mm based Boyz my advice is to either glue them on top of 32s, hollow out 32's so they wrap around the 25 and extend your basing, or just zogging re-base them.

Thanks but I was asking if the old boxes came with 25mm or the reboxing put them on 32. Sounds like it put them on 32mm now so I’ll avoid eBaying the boyz. I want the proper size base as I am just starting out.

Thanks!

32mm bases are super cheap though, you can save money with eBay Boyz (especially since people will be rage selling) and just glue them onto the 32mm bases or rebase them on the cheap.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
32mm bases are super cheap though, you can save money with eBay Boyz (especially since people will be rage selling) and just glue them onto the 32mm bases or rebase them on the cheap.

Semper, can I buy all your kommandos?

BTW army lists for the saturday tournament were put online.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Y-qWNgcFXIXAqLMUFRir7K2S-8zmz5bzTnGQG-o_1qI/edit

1 imperial knight among dark angels and one chaos knight. Well that one could be worse one. I think I can live with that one. Dark angel army could be lots of dakka in lots of vehicles. Getting first turn would be good.

Drukhari list I can live with. 1 ravager, not huge venom spam, no black heart cabal.

Tyranids #1 probably will walk over my list. (if nothing I have zero experience playing vs bugs)

Other ork list is weird. 10 strong evil sun mobs? Goff deep strikers with S5 and trike T1 charge plan? Could be brutal mirror match.

tneva82 wrote:

gungo wrote:
The one real good thing about orks vs plasma spam is generally orks don’t care about plasma spam... becuase overcharged and regular plasma have the same rolls to kill an ork boy however!!! Plasma spam really messes up high armor save 2 wound models...in other words warbikers and Meganobz are not a fan of plasma!!! Vs dark angels plasma spam you want boyz or grots to eat that overwatch!!!! He is going to tear up your warbikers!!!

Plasma s7. To kill on 2 needs overcharge so even better for orks

true but It doesn’t make a whole lot of difference plus if you are overcharging to turn that 3+ to a 2+ I’ll take that deal since mortal wounding a plasma marine to kill an ork boy is a good trade off.

Deffskull Big Mek Warlord w/Tellyporta Blasta and Oppurtunist. Is this a good character sniper?

How do we feel about DeffKoptas?

I was comparing [DeffKoptas] and [Nobs w/Warbikes] (Choppa+Kustom Shoota), and I'm curious which we might want to use. They're both 40 points, and you get...

Deffkoptas: FLY, +6" move guaranteed, +1W, but 2d3 attacks (2-6), Scoutin' Ahead, Deffbomm
Nobs w/Warbikes: +4 shots at 18", 3+1 attacks base, +1LD, -1 to-hit w/Stratagem; can have 9 models instead of 5 in a group

Actually, now that I type this out - Deffkoptas are much better, but slightly more random. Nobs w/Warbikes get a little bit more damage output at range, but... I guess Nobz are more customizable; but then you lose the equal points comparison. Nobz can have a -1 to-hit on them, but they're 1 less wound, so; it balances out.

fe40k wrote:
How do we feel about DeffKoptas?

I was comparing [DeffKoptas] and [Nobs w/Warbikes] (Choppa+Kustom Shoota), and I'm curious which we might want to use. They're both 40 points, and you get...

Deffkoptas: FLY, +6" move guaranteed, +1W, but 2d3 attacks (2-6), Scoutin' Ahead, Deffbomm
Nobs w/Warbikes: +4 shots at 18", 3+1 attacks base, +1LD, -1 to-hit w/Stratagem; can have 9 models instead of 5 in a group

Actually, now that I type this out - Deffkoptas are much better, but slightly more random. Nobs w/Warbikes get a little bit more damage output at range, but... I guess Nobz are more customizable; but then you lose the equal points comparison. Nobz can have a -1 to-hit on them, but they're 1 less wound, so; it balances out.

I'll let you know. I'm trying to keep a few around to hover in front of the trike boss, in case he fails his charge and is sticking out and targetable. Not that I have much faith in the deffkoptas lasting long, but maybe just enough to let the boss live until turn 2.

 JimOnMars wrote:

fe40k wrote:
How do we feel about DeffKoptas?

I was comparing [DeffKoptas] and [Nobs w/Warbikes] (Choppa+Kustom Shoota), and I'm curious which we might want to use. They're both 40 points, and you get...

Deffkoptas: FLY, +6" move guaranteed, +1W, but 2d3 attacks (2-6), Scoutin' Ahead, Deffbomm
Nobs w/Warbikes: +4 shots at 18", 3+1 attacks base, +1LD, -1 to-hit w/Stratagem; can have 9 models instead of 5 in a group

Actually, now that I type this out - Deffkoptas are much better, but slightly more random. Nobs w/Warbikes get a little bit more damage output at range, but... I guess Nobz are more customizable; but then you lose the equal points comparison. Nobz can have a -1 to-hit on them, but they're 1 less wound, so; it balances out.

I'll let you know. I'm trying to keep a few around to hover in front of the trike boss, in case he fails his charge and is sticking out and targetable. Not that I have much faith in the deffkoptas lasting long, but maybe just enough to let the boss live until turn 2.

I prefer the Koptas because you can take them as solo models (and I find them funnier). Fills up FA slots and plays well with the DeathSkulls kulture (especially if you have the spare points to chuck a KMB on there). The bomb is a nice little bonus, too. As is fly, so you can get places the bikes can't, like over the enemy's lines and onto upper floors to flush out campers.

Though if you were planning on running a max unit, you might do better with the warbikes, just due to the -1 to hit strat and the ability to protect the odd weapon upgrade with the "cheap" nobz.

Not that either is going to be setting the world on fire, so you might as well go with whichever you think is cooler, really.

 Trimarius wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

fe40k wrote:
How do we feel about DeffKoptas?

I was comparing [DeffKoptas] and [Nobs w/Warbikes] (Choppa+Kustom Shoota), and I'm curious which we might want to use. They're both 40 points, and you get...

Deffkoptas: FLY, +6" move guaranteed, +1W, but 2d3 attacks (2-6), Scoutin' Ahead, Deffbomm
Nobs w/Warbikes: +4 shots at 18", 3+1 attacks base, +1LD, -1 to-hit w/Stratagem; can have 9 models instead of 5 in a group

Actually, now that I type this out - Deffkoptas are much better, but slightly more random. Nobs w/Warbikes get a little bit more damage output at range, but... I guess Nobz are more customizable; but then you lose the equal points comparison. Nobz can have a -1 to-hit on them, but they're 1 less wound, so; it balances out.

I'll let you know. I'm trying to keep a few around to hover in front of the trike boss, in case he fails his charge and is sticking out and targetable. Not that I have much faith in the deffkoptas lasting long, but maybe just enough to let the boss live until turn 2.

I prefer the Koptas because you can take them as solo models (and I find them funnier). Fills up FA slots and plays well with the DeathSkulls kulture (especially if you have the spare points to chuck a KMB on there). The bomb is a nice little bonus, too. As is fly, so you can get places the bikes can't, like over the enemy's lines and onto upper floors to flush out campers.

Though if you were planning on running a max unit, you might do better with the warbikes, just due to the -1 to hit strat and the ability to protect the odd weapon upgrade with the "cheap" nobz.

Not that either is going to be setting the world on fire, so you might as well go with whichever you think is cooler, really.

Well koptas can benefit from the -1 to hit as well. Albeit whether it's that good for koptas is another thing. Lone models meanwhile is good for deathskulls and brigade filling

Hoping that koptas have gone back to fulfilling the role they did back in 5th; solo koptas were great distraction / harassment units. Scout ahead and use high movement to get right in the enemy’s flanks with enough shooting to present a threat and enough durability to require a bit of fire to remove them. They probably won’t see turn two, but if they’ve stopped your opponent from shooting at the boyz or dragged them away from objectives, they’ve done their job. Hopefully killed something too, but that’s actually a bonus.

Koptas suffer the same issue that Nobs, Primaris and other multi wound models have, they are multi wound models, which makes them LESS durable than single wound models.

I had a good laugh with Koptas last game.

I run them with rokkits to act as mobile AA threats.

Over the course of a battle I had one use ramming speed to deal 3 mortal wounds to a squad of Dire Avengers turn 1. Mostly to guarantee charge (was on top of building) and to atop DA shooting though.

Another managed to snipe a jetbike farseer by shooting him, getting particularly lucky then charging him and mulching him in combat. I did cheat though as I left combat and thought I could charge back in to go first because of fly. So it took like 2 turns total but it put decent pressure on my opponent.

Use them as the pests they are but don't overinvest in them would be my advice.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Koptas suffer the same issue that Nobs, Primaris and other multi wound models have, they are multi wound models, which makes them LESS durable than single wound models.

If they take even one Lascannon shot away from my Battlewagons I'm a happy Warboss.

I just realized that Index Ork units are now somewhat worse because they don't benefit from Dakka! Dakka! Dakka!

I wonder if GW will errata the index to give them DDD and/or fix the Big Gunz "issue".

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I just realized that Index Ork units are now somewhat worse because they don't benefit from Dakka! Dakka! Dakka!

I wonder if GW will errata the index to give them DDD and/or fix the Big Gunz "issue".

They already gave index units DDD.

Not sure they fixed Big Guns though.

tneva82 wrote:
Tuesday game night I had to skip due to fever. On flipside it gave me 13h paint session + painting on wednesday so got basically all critical ork painting done for now so can concentrate on titans again for a while. Anyway for today I had game against rookie(this would be his 2nd game in 8th. Had played in 4th ed or so) so I opted to not bring up all tooled up list. Wanted to try out lots of my scratch build mek guns though so:

Evil sun battallion:

trike w/kunning but brutal, super cybork body
weirdboy(fist of gork)
10xgrot
2x30 boyz(one with 10 shootas and big choppa, one with power klaw)

Death skull battallion:

mek w/SAG
2xweirdboy(da jump)
4x10 grots
30xboyz(19 shoota, big choppa)
10xtank busta
15xloota
4xsmasha gun+3xtraktor gun+2xkmk

After coming with list I remembered hadn't he mentioned his faction sometime before? Double check and oh yes...And it was dark eldars! Priority orders received! Forget about winning. I don't care about that. I just want to KIIIIIIIIL! I have won vs dark eldars before(once literally killing no models...) but killing them has been issue all the time(1.5"+ tall places enough and you can't assault them and index orks couldn't shoot either...). However I thought these mek guns might be bit much against rookie so I toned down list leaving 2 of each and took up 5 bikes with big choppa nob instead.

He had archon, squad of kabalites in raider, wyches in raider, incubi on venom, wracks on raider with haemonoculus something, some 4w monsters, talon, 3 jetbikes, 2 ravagers with dark lances. Oh and some flyer with S6 d6 missiles, 2 dark lances and splinter guns.

We got race to victory as scenario. I put up fast stuff on left, guns on center, dethskull boys and lootas on right. Evil sun boys into deep strike. As he got 1st turn though I used warlord trait to reposition stuff. Lootas went to my far right outside LOS, evil sun grots were repositioned left and front of trike to ensure his flier can't park next to my warlord and snipe him. I btw am starting to love this warlord trait.

T1 dark eldar. He moved forward and shot. And boy what a horrible luck. Dark lances struggled to wound mek guns so best he got was 5 wounds to both traktor kannons. Some death skull boys died(guess who forgot 6++ now that I think about it...) but all in all light.

T1 orks. I had kill unit in h2h. Well I'm an ork. I don't think too much if it's smart if there's chance to kill stuff in h2h so trike+bikes raced toward the 4W guys. Other than that I just shuffled around. Psychic da jump repositioned lootas back into position they could shoot at dark eldar vehicles. Fist of gork to trike. Shooting. This was fun. I started with smasha guns against raider with wyches dropping it to 4 wounds. Traktor kannon 1 bounced on 5++. Traktor kannon 2 failed to wound but command CP and wound and through save. 5 wounds and autoexplosion which took 3 more wounds to the one with kabalite warriors. Lootas fired up with more dakka and took that down too. And tank bustas vs flier dropped it down to 5 wounds.

I might have trippled my lifetime wounds caused vs dark eldars? Too bad attack against monsters went less stellar. 4 wounds past inv saves but after wound rolls and feel no pains only 1 died and 1 was down to 1 wound and regular bikes failed utterly.

T2 dark eldar. Wracks and incubi disembarked and prepared to charge trike. Whoops. Monsters fell back to allow shooting vs trike and bikes. Some haywire dark eldars appeared out of deep strike to my right killing weirdboy that had da jumped lootas but that's all right. I had 1 more and he ensured lootas were well out of charge range from deep strikers if that would have been his plan. Shooting and his atrocious luck(seriously 3 dark lances hit and fail to wound...And this happened twice in this game) but flyer did get the traktor kannons finished off at least. Grots were dying but those are sacrificiable. H2h and my trike was charged by everything but somehow survived with 3 wounds suffered. I even panicked and used counter attack but failed to kill haemonoculus(sp) warlord. Damn inv+fnp.

T2 orks. Time to bring in more orks. One mob appeared behind wracks to help my trike. Second went right behind kabalite. Not that it was best ideas(wyches nearby) but I want to kiiiiil and I had 2 cards depending on killing stuff on h2h. Another was clear center. Magic. I tried da jump further into safety but failed. Fist of gork again. Shooting. Lootas split with more dakka. 3(no LOS to vehicles) to the haywire guys but failed to kill anything. Rest shot at ravager. 16 wounds and FNP was useless. Tank bustas blew out the flyer out of the sky. Mek guns didn't do much this turn nor did big mek w/SAG.

H2h. Boys make charge and kill bunch of wracks and all kabalite warriors(2 vp's there). Trike then decided rather than 4++ hq that is wounding me on 6 anyway let's kill incubi. 8 attacks. 6 hits, 6 wounds, 5 past armour save. Scratch squad of incubi....WAIT? Only 1 died? That was 4 1's for damage followed by 3 6's and one 2 wound followed by double 6...

You got to be kidding me!

Well to be fair neither did he do much and I was still sitting there with 3 wounds.

T3 dark eldar. More wracks deep striked and charged boys on right that were sandwiched by archon and wyches. Ouch. Talos charged trike boss. Shooting saw stuff here and there die but not much. I still had 2 KMK and smasha gun left(his rolling...). H2h both boys unit took horrendous damage though wyches and wracks died in return. Trike boss barely died as well. Morale phase I rolled 6 for BOTH boys unit losing 8 from both. OUCH OUCH OUCH.

We started T3 but realized we had 15 minutes to pack and leave before place close. I would have got 3 advance(2 grots+weirdboy) and was going to get another vp. Defend same objective front of talos&co would have been tough. But I had got evil sun boys out of combat at least so would have used lootas, tank bustas and mek guns to shoot at talos, bikes and other stuff so I think I might have been able to do that. Even without that though it was 9-7(I think something like that. 2-3 vp lead anyway) win for orks.

Cool report dude. Did you run bikes and how did you find them. How did the 30 blob of boys get on in cc?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I just realized that Index Ork units are now somewhat worse because they don't benefit from Dakka! Dakka! Dakka!

I wonder if GW will errata the index to give them DDD and/or fix the Big Gunz "issue".

They already gave index units DDD.

Not sure they fixed Big Guns though.

Source? I know they gave Forgeworld units DDD, haven't seen anything about Index.

With regards deffcoptas, keep them close to a blob of 30 boyz for an easy +1 armour save strat. Their range with evil sunz (guaranteed 23" move and advance) means they can quiet easily keep up with da jumped boyz.

I never thought of using the ramming speed. 2 CP is too pricey to use on a single model imo but the option is nice to have.

So what's our most optimal green tide at the moment? I feel like there's a lot of excitement around our new options, but the tide remains viable.

7pt boyz and 9pt stormboyz are a bit grim, but the benefits they gained probably outweigh this I feel.

(clan cultures, DDD, buffed ere we go, access to green tide strat, fight again strat, grot shield strat, tankbusta bombs, stormboyz can DS, tellyporta strat, warpheads for support)

Perhaps something like this:


Deathskull battalion

2 weirdboyz (usually warpheads - one warpaths and jumps boyz, one FoG for warboss and smites)
2 x 30 slugga boyz with PK
3x10 gretchin (backfield scoring)
30 gretchin (grot shield for stormboyz)

Evil suns battalion

Smash-warboss on bike
Foot warboss with PK
3 x 30 slugga boyz with PK
10 slugga boyz (for mob up and jump)
30 Stormboyz with PK
Smasha gun - enemy will shoot it to provide a handy 'loot it' strat for boyz or stormboyz

I see all of you stating the Mek Guns do not profit from the clan kulture because of the Gretchin keyword. To me that doesn't sound correct.

The text in the codex states: "Units comprised entirely of GRETCHIN cannot benefit fromany Clan Kultur." The Mek gun entry says: "This unit contains 1 Mek Gun and 6 grot krew". Now of course there are the keywords. But these state Gretchin (for the grots) as well as artillery (for the gun). Thus imho this is a mixed unit of Gretchin and arty. Not?

CaptainO wrote:

Cool report dude. Did you run bikes and how did you find them. How did the 30 blob of boys get on in cc?

Like first game they lost couple members in opponents first turn and didn't do much in combat or shooting either. Mostly just distracted attention from the trike.

Getting h2h was easy enough. Deep strike, 8" charge, hack&slash. Issue was more of trouble vs T5 inv save getting kills and then getting creamed by return attacks.

That is my reading of the book.

Of course, may be a FAQ subject really quickly. Couldn’t have Ork shooting _ too_ good, now, could we? :-)

 Singleton Mosby wrote:
I see all of you stating the Mek Guns do not profit from the clan kulture because of the Gretchin keyword. To me that doesn't sound correct.

The text in the codex states: "Units comprised entirely of GRETCHIN cannot benefit fromany Clan Kultur." The Mek gun entry says: "This unit contains 1 Mek Gun and 6 grot krew". Now of course there are the keywords. But these state Gretchin (for the grots) as well as artillery (for the gun). Thus imho this is a mixed unit of Gretchin and arty. Not?

The GRETCHIN is keyword.

And all models have all keywords. Thus all models have gretchin, vehicle etc keywords. For there to be differing keywords there would have to be multiple lines for keywords.

Or are you claiming assault marines have only assault marine keyword and not adeptus astartes or imperium because only part of keywords would apply to unit? You don't pick up SOME keywords that apply for specific model. ALL keywords from the line applies to all models.

Let it go. No death skull mek guns(seriously if they did got they might just as well hard code them as death skulls as no other clan would ever use them)

How many from the original 30 boyz survived the first turn to be da jumped. A cocktail of grot shields/ prepped position/ eavy armour/Loot it makes the boyz really survivable. The t shirt save doesn't fair well against overwatch either. 4+/5+ could make a difference.

You weren't tempted to use the fight twice strat?

How many units did the da jumped unit of boyz manage to tie up in their assault phase? Or did all 30ish focus on the T5 guys (and fail to wipe them out?!?!?)

CaptainO wrote:
How many from the original 30 boyz survived the first turn to be da jumped. A cocktail of grot shields/ prepped position/ eavy armour/Loot it makes the boyz really survivable. The t shirt save doesn't fair well against overwatch either. 4+/5+ could make a difference.

You weren't tempted to use the fight twice strat?

How many units did the da jumped unit of boyz manage to tie up in their assault phase? Or did all 30ish focus on the T5 guys (and fail to wipe them out?!?!?)

They weren't da jumped but tellyported so 100%. Only unit of boyz that started on board were deathskulls that suffered some casualties and never got into combat before time ran out(it would have been to them to deal with the wracks that had tag teamed with wyches vs evil sun boys).

Overwatch is neutered by 6 to hit so that wasn't too much of a worry. Plus wracks didn't have guns either.

And for 3CP no. More dakka to keep up loota firepower up drained up fast enough.

On left evil sun mob charged straight into the wracks so only them. T5 is T5 and invulnerable save plus FNP as well so didn't want to spread them too much anyway(good thing too as I didn't even kill them and got my ass kicked in return by big pile of return attacks). They would have had also still incubis to deal with(though by all rights those should have died to the trike boss).

On right I charged 10 kabalites, they all died. Then archon+wyches charged from one side and wracks charged from other side. HUGE casualties ensured(5 attack per wych! Some darn strategem doubled drug bonus) so wanting to get rid of those ladies I concentrated on them wiping them out.

Grot shields would have been used to protect lootas as those were absolutely brutal. Boyz are just sacrificial pawns for the real meat. Cause as much damage and keep elves off the fire base. Seeing I had 3 units grot shield would be pretty useless anyway. I protect one unit, he would then blow the other units.

Its cool that you seem to be running such a shooty list. How many of the T5 guys were there?

When I deploy I only really have the 30 boyz out in the open with about 4 units of grots. The only other targets are two ard top battle wagons and bikes. Prepped position gives them 3+.

I was never too keen on psychic powers but with the new reserves rule da jump is pretty unique in allowing a unit of 30 boyz to charge T1. I'm just wondering if boyz in cc can efficiently take out those T5 dudes.

Been mulling over some ideas

Deff Dreads seem pretty decent now fall CC for the price?

4 attacks s10 -3 3dmg and 2 more attacks s9 -2 2dmg - 105pts
3 of them evil sons teleport them down for 2cp

thats some crumping, anyone tried it?

Also kans don't seem to bad either.... i'm feeling a dreadmob list coming

The deff dread bomb is a popular new tactic, as you can fit three of them in the teleporter for 2 cp.

Most do 1x klaw and 3x saw (for 3 klaw and 3 saw attacks) to save points.

If you are running deathskullz, can swap out saws for two KMB's, for some major ranged punch when they come in. (or just one).

Most run evil sunz for the +1 charge after teleporting.

Killa kans...oh poor killa kans. No kulture, no stratagems, have to be baby sat (warboss in larger mobs), nob banner if you want more effective CC.

They are now overshadowed by the rokkit buggy, which both outputs significantly more dakka, and has more T, more wounds, and better CC performance, moves faster, has access to kulture and strat...etc etc. Sure kans are cheaper, but they aren't really discounted with all the negatives they bring along now. You'd be better off taking mega nobz for around the same points.

Tellyporta is 2 cp

yea but kans are only 52 pts with a rokkit. I'm considering them over mek guns to fill up some cheap HS for a brigade.

Run em single with boyz maybe, they'll die but ye still gotta shoot at them and if they make it to CC they are pretty decent.

edit: till i checked and the hit on 5's, ugh

What are the odds that the faq or CA makes any of the mechanized gretchin (kanz, grot tanks, grot mega-tank) viable again?

Zero. There will not be any adjustments to orks due to the release schedule. CA was done before orks hit the store.

Coh Magnussen wrote:
What are the odds that the faq or CA makes any of the mechanized gretchin (kanz, grot tanks, grot mega-tank) viable again?

Faq will just clarify things and ca was well done before codex was even out so none.

Also last 2 are resin. Gw ain't buffing resin

yea but kans are only 52 pts with a rokkit. I'm considering them over mek guns to fill up some cheap HS for a brigade.

That's pretty expensive considering the platform you get it on. (Compare to rokkit buggy for 2 killa kans). Smasha guns will out damage a killa kan for less points by a wide margin.

I have 18 killa kans. I don't see any real use for them now. At least the mek guns are absurdly cheap so I don't care when they die. Even a deff dread is far better then two kans now.

I mean, they could change some of it around in the FAQ&errata that's due any day now. I doubt they will, but the only change they'd make is killa kans I'd wager. Those guys are hard to see the upside with right now, again it's super unlikely it would happen

heh, least in my local area people hate my kanz.
i imagine i'd get a lot of flaming if they got buffed even further.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
heh, least in my local area people hate my kanz.
i imagine i'd get a lot of flaming if they got buffed even further.

Yeah, my kanz have pretty much never not rocked.

I don't understand the hate for them. They are still a wall of tougness and wounds. Bring enough of them and most lists would have trouble dealing with it.

You could just have an army made of kanz and 'ard boyz. Just loot every kan that dies and enjoy your 4+ saves.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I don't understand the hate for them. They are still a wall of tougness and wounds. Bring enough of them and most lists would have trouble dealing with it.

They are not hard to deal when people prepare to one shot knights. Even heavy bolters worry them

11 rokkit kans (around 560pts) on average will kill 2 smasha guns and injure another. If they get 1st turn shooting.

The same amount of points in smasha guns kills around 10 killa kans (and the last one might run!)

Think it's hard to justify that kind of disparity in competitive play. I know the kans win if they get into CC, but that seems unlikely!

tneva82 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I don't understand the hate for them. They are still a wall of tougness and wounds. Bring enough of them and most lists would have trouble dealing with it.

They are not hard to deal when people prepare to one shot knights. Even heavy bolters worry them

I mean, as much as a heavy bolter worries like, a rhino. on average you gotta shoot 4 BS4+ heavy bolters at them to do a point of damage.

Also, I'm not sure if this is your tournament meta or not, I've noticed that the things that really worry knights are melee threats that can get past the 3++ "nope you don't get to kill me" maneuver. Most people seem to not be going for shoot the knight strategies, because they just kind of don't work in the one turn you need to kill the knight.

They go for a combination of chaff clearing and then firing a melee missile character/unit in to it to take it down in one turn. Our orky example would be the killa klawboss with fists of gork up, who can knock a knight down in a couple rounds, or a BA/SW smash character, a big unit of GSC aberrants, etc.

Where are you guys getting bombs from on the deffkoptas.

They were removed from the codex entry.

 DoomMouse wrote:
11 rokkit kans (around 560pts) on average will kill 2 smasha guns and injure another. If they get 1st turn shooting.

The same amount of points in smasha guns kills around 10 killa kans (and the last one might run!)

Think it's hard to justify that kind of disparity in competitive play. I know the kans win if they get into CC, but that seems unlikely!

You know maybe if you compared two different units and one had all its points in JUST shooting, and the other had points in shooting, melee, and the ability to do stuff like move around the battlefield, I think you'd probably find that in almost all cases the unit that JUST SHOOTS is going to win hands down in a comparison of just shooting.

its kind of like "oh my god equal points of Catachan Basilisks does way more damage vs tanks in shooting than a knight warden does, why are people complaining about how powerful a single knight is?"

 TedNugent wrote:
Where are you guys getting bombs from on the deffkoptas.

They were removed from the codex entry.

you can still use index weapon options.

well obviously if you only ran kanz they'd suck, theyre the other prong of a dual threat.
If you run 6 kanz AND other deadly vehicles like a 'naut or dread trio, thats a lot of armor to bust through. Any of them reaching melee is devastating and the kanz/nauts can dakka pretty good too.

Thats pretty much been how all my games been going. Kanz die right off, 3 dreads/naut is unscathed or my naut gets hammered hard and the kanz/dreads make it to melee with some paint chips.
~950pts for all that.

You could probably put a death skullz KFF big mek on a bike with the kans, with follow me lads, and a fixer upper, and throw out 2d3 (d3 per unit) heals a round, with the field, and warboss buff to prevent loss of models due to moral. (fix it up relic is different keywords then biker mekanic)

Why was this thread created by the OP if he didn't plan on keeping the first post updated? This thing is useless to someone just coming on board. I don't have time nor inclination to comb though this whole thread just to mine out the gems.

OP you suck.

 matphat wrote:
Why was this thread created by the OP if he didn't plan on keeping the first post updated? This thing is useless to someone just coming on board. I don't have time nor inclination to comb though this whole thread just to mine out the gems.

OP you suck.

Well, do you want to work with us to make a more useful tactica? Seems like most of them have like a "unviable, situational, good, auto-include" ranking for units, relics, stratagems, subfactions and traits.

There's no reason we can't start that discussion collectively and then either make a new OP or try to contact this threads OP.

I think we need some tourney info to back up claims, but there's probably relatively little controversy for most stuff at this point.

Why was this thread created by the OP if he didn't plan on keeping the first post updated? This thing is useless to someone just coming on board. I don't have time nor inclination to comb though this whole thread just to mine out the gems.

OP you suck.

OP openly admits

now my own participation is spotty on dakkadakka. ill admit it. but while im active ill go ahead and get the thread started.

So start a more updated thread yourself

Also, I really feel like we should at least wait for the errata before we start judging all the units. Both for potential misprints etc and also just for allowing some time for play testing..

the_scotsman wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
11 rokkit kans (around 560pts) on average will kill 2 smasha guns and injure another. If they get 1st turn shooting.

The same amount of points in smasha guns kills around 10 killa kans (and the last one might run!)

Think it's hard to justify that kind of disparity in competitive play. I know the kans win if they get into CC, but that seems unlikely!

You know maybe if you compared two different units and one had all its points in JUST shooting, and the other had points in shooting, melee, and the ability to do stuff like move around the battlefield, I think you'd probably find that in almost all cases the unit that JUST SHOOTS is going to win hands down in a comparison of just shooting.

its kind of like "oh my god equal points of Catachan Basilisks does way more damage vs tanks in shooting than a knight warden does, why are people complaining about how powerful a single knight is?"

Yeah, but they're both anti tank units competing for the role. I'm not saying they're terrible, they do have a niche as a distraction carnifex, but I know I'd rather be facing the guy who ploughed points into kans than smashas in basically any given list. They just do more for the points. I guess I was more making the point that the smashas aren't just better at shooting, they're LUDICROUSLY better at shooting. Like around 3 times the damage depending on target.

TBH their melee is a bit meh even if they do make it into CC, which certainly isn't guaranteed.

the_scotsman wrote:

 matphat wrote:
Why was this thread created by the OP if he didn't plan on keeping the first post updated? This thing is useless to someone just coming on board. I don't have time nor inclination to comb though this whole thread just to mine out the gems.

OP you suck.

Well, do you want to work with us to make a more useful tactica? Seems like most of them have like a "unviable, situational, good, auto-include" ranking for units, relics, stratagems, subfactions and traits.

There's no reason we can't start that discussion collectively and then either make a new OP or try to contact this threads OP.

I think we need some tourney info to back up claims, but there's probably relatively little controversy for most stuff at this point.

I actually ran the 6th Ed. Tactica and would be happy to do it again.

Here is the format I used back in the day if anyone has any suggestions on how it might be improved.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/456724.page

Jidmah usually does it though. I wouldn't be adverse to it if he's not in to it. Either way, yeah, this thread should die.

i also think the general opinion is smashas are a bit underpriced.
That is the only unit in the new dex ive seen consistent complaints about. Its simply too durable for the price, theyre just as durable as a new buggy for 1/4th the price. And even the new buggies dont exactly go down that quick.

i wouldnt be surprised to see a change in the post-release faq. Even without running the math i looked at the weapons and went "smasha just feels better..." then i saw the price and went WTF!! (literally, my jaw dropped at the price difference)

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i also think the general opinion is smashas are a bit underpriced.
That is the only unit in the new dex ive seen consistent complaints about. Its simply too durable for the price, theyre just as durable as a new buggy for 1/4th the price. And even the new buggies dont exactly go down that quick.

i wouldnt be surprised to see a change in the post-release faq. Even without running the math i looked at the weapons and went "smasha just feels better..." then i saw the price and went WTF!! (literally, my jaw dropped at the price difference)

Yeah, they should probably be something like 36 points. Two smasha mek guns would be 72 points as opposed to 62 points.

I think once the ork 2 week FAQ hits this thread should be locked and re-started with an active OP maintainer.

Question for you all: Do you think it's worth sticking with 30 'ard/Skarboyz rather than mobbing up to 40 so you can use Endless Green Tide on them? For 'ard Boyz especially since it's it's only 1 more CP than making 2 units of ard Boyz and it's +15 "extra" models instead of 10.

Of course we do need an FAQ about whether those Boyz keep Skar/Ard Boyz buff to begin with (I think it's cut and dry that they won't keep Warpath or Loot it Buffs though, perhaps? Damn you GW and your sloppy Special Snowflake FAQs).

i think if youre going to dump the CP to make them Skar/'Ard Boyz you might as well plan to Green Tide them too, since they keep the buffs currently. Wording is similar to other "pick up and put down" mechanics so i doubt theyre supposed to drop those buffs.

30+10 is more of a "fill the roster" or "da jump" tactic, not CP dump tactic.

Im not even a fan of 'ardboyz, imo THAT should have been 1CP and Skarboyz been 2.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i think if youre going to dump the CP to make them Skar/'Ard Boyz you might as well plan to Green Tide them too, since they keep the buffs currently. Wording is similar to other "pick up and put down" mechanics so i doubt theyre supposed to drop those buffs.

30+10 is more of a "fill the roster" or "da jump" tactic, not CP dump tactic.

Im not even a fan of 'ardboyz, imo THAT should have been 1CP and Skarboyz been 2.

This a million times over.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i also think the general opinion is smashas are a bit underpriced.
That is the only unit in the new dex ive seen consistent complaints about. Its simply too durable for the price, theyre just as durable as a new buggy for 1/4th the price. And even the new buggies dont exactly go down that quick.

i wouldnt be surprised to see a change in the post-release faq. Even without running the math i looked at the weapons and went "smasha just feels better..." then i saw the price and went WTF!! (literally, my jaw dropped at the price difference)

Yeah, they should probably be something like 36 points. Two smasha mek guns would be 72 points as opposed to 62 points.

I disagree. Used it in my last game and it failed to wound any of the hits on T7 Nid big bugs. The "average" roll on 2d6 is considered 7 but when it comes time to roll those it ends up much more difficult than people make it seem. My opponent just avoid it all game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mhalko1 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i also think the general opinion is smashas are a bit underpriced.
That is the only unit in the new dex ive seen consistent complaints about. Its simply too durable for the price, theyre just as durable as a new buggy for 1/4th the price. And even the new buggies dont exactly go down that quick.

i wouldnt be surprised to see a change in the post-release faq. Even without running the math i looked at the weapons and went "smasha just feels better..." then i saw the price and went WTF!! (literally, my jaw dropped at the price difference)

Yeah, they should probably be something like 36 points. Two smasha mek guns would be 72 points as opposed to 62 points.

I disagree. Used it in my last game and it failed to wound any of the hits on T7 Nid big bugs. The "average" roll on 2d6 is considered 7 but when it comes time to roll those it ends up much more difficult than people make it seem. My opponent just avoid it all game.

For me at least the auto hit and having to roll 50% on a 4+ with the traktor kannon is a safer investment.

Edit fail on my part....

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I think once the ork 2 week FAQ hits this thread should be locked and re-started with an active OP maintainer.

Amen to that

mhalko1 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i also think the general opinion is smashas are a bit underpriced.
That is the only unit in the new dex ive seen consistent complaints about. Its simply too durable for the price, theyre just as durable as a new buggy for 1/4th the price. And even the new buggies dont exactly go down that quick.

i wouldnt be surprised to see a change in the post-release faq. Even without running the math i looked at the weapons and went "smasha just feels better..." then i saw the price and went WTF!! (literally, my jaw dropped at the price difference)

Yeah, they should probably be something like 36 points. Two smasha mek guns would be 72 points as opposed to 62 points.

I disagree. Used it in my last game and it failed to wound any of the hits on T7 Nid big bugs. The "average" roll on 2d6 is considered 7 but when it comes time to roll those it ends up much more difficult than people make it seem. My opponent just avoid it all game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mhalko1 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i also think the general opinion is smashas are a bit underpriced.
That is the only unit in the new dex ive seen consistent complaints about. Its simply too durable for the price, theyre just as durable as a new buggy for 1/4th the price. And even the new buggies dont exactly go down that quick.

i wouldnt be surprised to see a change in the post-release faq. Even without running the math i looked at the weapons and went "smasha just feels better..." then i saw the price and went WTF!! (literally, my jaw dropped at the price difference)

Yeah, they should probably be something like 36 points. Two smasha mek guns would be 72 points as opposed to 62 points.

I disagree. Used it in my last game and it failed to wound any of the hits on T7 Nid big bugs. The "average" roll on 2d6 is considered 7 but when it comes time to roll those it ends up much more difficult than people make it seem. My opponent just avoid it all game.

For me at least the auto hit and having to roll 50% on a 4+ with the traktor kannon is a safer investment.

Edit fail on my part....

I mean, you can say that, but, tbh...at least looking at averages you'd be kind of wrong.

7+ is 58%, 4+ is 50%. and it's the same number of hits on average.

 Singleton Mosby wrote:
I see all of you stating the Mek Guns do not profit from the clan kulture because of the Gretchin keyword. To me that doesn't sound correct.

The text in the codex states: "Units comprised entirely of GRETCHIN cannot benefit fromany Clan Kultur." The Mek gun entry says: "This unit contains 1 Mek Gun and 6 grot krew". Now of course there are the keywords. But these state Gretchin (for the grots) as well as artillery (for the gun). Thus imho this is a mixed unit of Gretchin and arty. Not?

That's a negative. It lists the gretchin keyword for the entire unit.

For contrast, see nobs. The nob entry specifically defines the keywords for ammo runts vs the nobs. Ergo, ammo runts in a nob unit benefit from clan rules, as do the nobs. The mek guns have the gretchin keyword, ergo they do not benefit.

The index Mek Guns were individual units, and so would benefit from Kultur. The Codex Mek Guns have a cludge togethered rule to prevent them getting Kultur instead of just giving the Mek Gunz the Gretchin keyword.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The index Mek Guns were individual units, and so would benefit from Kultur. The Codex Mek Guns have a cludge togethered rule to prevent them getting Kultur instead of just giving the Mek Gunz the Gretchin keyword.

I feel like their rules were also changed to eliminate "super untargetable mega grots" from being a thing.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I just realized that Index Ork units are now somewhat worse because they don't benefit from Dakka! Dakka! Dakka!

I wonder if GW will errata the index to give them DDD and/or fix the Big Gunz "issue".

They already gave index units DDD.

Not sure they fixed Big Guns though.

Source? I know they gave Forgeworld units DDD, haven't seen anything about Index.

My mistake - I was thinking about the FW units.

yeah and both of our supers in FW absolutely love kultures and DDD.

Both the Gargsquig and Killtank have quite a bit of dakka, though obviously the Killtank has more of it. I look forward to running my gargsquig with reroll 1s and DDD'ing my Supalobba hehe.

Requiring 3 HQs to take the Command Detachment is hardly an issue with orks to get the LoW kutlure rules.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
yeah and both of our supers in FW absolutely love kultures and DDD.

Both the Gargsquig and Killtank have quite a bit of dakka, though obviously the Killtank has more of it. I look forward to running my gargsquig with reroll 1s and DDD'ing my Supalobba hehe.

Requiring 3 HQs to take the Command Detachment is hardly an issue with orks to get the LoW kutlure rules.

Take 3 Weirdboyz and you're golden. The only issue is the rule of 3.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i think if youre going to dump the CP to make them Skar/'Ard Boyz you might as well plan to Green Tide them too, since they keep the buffs currently. Wording is similar to other "pick up and put down" mechanics so i doubt theyre supposed to drop those buffs.

30+10 is more of a "fill the roster" or "da jump" tactic, not CP dump tactic.

Im not even a fan of 'ardboyz, imo THAT should have been 1CP and Skarboyz been 2.

The Faq says that anytime you use a stratagem to pick up and set back down a unit, it loses all its persistent effects.

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i think if youre going to dump the CP to make them Skar/'Ard Boyz you might as well plan to Green Tide them too, since they keep the buffs currently. Wording is similar to other "pick up and put down" mechanics so i doubt theyre supposed to drop those buffs.

30+10 is more of a "fill the roster" or "da jump" tactic, not CP dump tactic.

Im not even a fan of 'ardboyz, imo THAT should have been 1CP and Skarboyz been 2.

The Faq says that anytime you use a stratagem to pick up and set back down a unit, it loses all its persistent effects.

But that relies on what you mean by "persistent effect". Does a stratagem that alters characteristics and keywords count as a persistent effect? The only example they give is that of an ability, which a stratagem is not. While I personally think that Unstopable Green Tide does indeed turn them back into normal boyz (after some reflection), it's not so clear cut. But that's the problem when you Special Snowflake FAQ, you muddy the waters.

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i think if youre going to dump the CP to make them Skar/'Ard Boyz you might as well plan to Green Tide them too, since they keep the buffs currently. Wording is similar to other "pick up and put down" mechanics so i doubt theyre supposed to drop those buffs.

30+10 is more of a "fill the roster" or "da jump" tactic, not CP dump tactic.

Im not even a fan of 'ardboyz, imo THAT should have been 1CP and Skarboyz been 2.

The Faq says that anytime you use a stratagem to pick up and set back down a unit, it loses all its persistent effects.

But what is the definition of persistent effects? Is that just one turn buffs, or is it permanent stat changes?

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i think if youre going to dump the CP to make them Skar/'Ard Boyz you might as well plan to Green Tide them too, since they keep the buffs currently. Wording is similar to other "pick up and put down" mechanics so i doubt theyre supposed to drop those buffs.

30+10 is more of a "fill the roster" or "da jump" tactic, not CP dump tactic.

Im not even a fan of 'ardboyz, imo THAT should have been 1CP and Skarboyz been 2.

The Faq says that anytime you use a stratagem to pick up and set back down a unit, it loses all its persistent effects.

But what is the definition of persistent effects? Is that just one turn buffs, or is it permanent stat changes?

The unit is renamed. I think that's a little more than a 'persistent effect'.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The unit is renamed. I think that's a little more than a 'persistent effect'.

Persistent is not a synonym of Permanent.

and this is one of the many reasons why i only play 40k semi-competitive.
They dont define things right. Thats yet another general term that should be a paragraph in the main rules defining it and there is no such paragraph so its stuck in a gray area.

But An Actual Englishment is correct, theyre being renamed. Per that faq they'd lose Loot It! bonus but not 'Ard Boyz or Skarboyz

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The unit is renamed. I think that's a little more than a 'persistent effect'.

Persistent is not a synonym of Permanent.

That's nice. Point?

 Emicrania wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I think once the ork 2 week FAQ hits this thread should be locked and re-started with an active OP maintainer.

Amen to that

I'll third that. It's really a fundamental requirement of these threads that the OP is updated with things like a tier list and perhaps some other brief summaries of discussions.

crzylgs wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I think once the ork 2 week FAQ hits this thread should be locked and re-started with an active OP maintainer.

Amen to that

I'll third that. It's really a fundamental requirement of these threads that the OP is updated with things like a tier list and perhaps some other brief summaries of discussions.

I'll fourth that. If Jidmah doesn't set up the new thread, I will. I'm a permalurker and love green gits.

crzylgs wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I think once the ork 2 week FAQ hits this thread should be locked and re-started with an active OP maintainer.

Amen to that

I'll third that. It's really a fundamental requirement of these threads that the OP is updated with things like a tier list and perhaps some other brief summaries of discussions.

Requirement followed by very few threadt it seems

 Vineheart01 wrote:
yeah and both of our supers in FW absolutely love kultures and DDD.

Both the Gargsquig and Killtank have quite a bit of dakka, though obviously the Killtank has more of it. I look forward to running my gargsquig with reroll 1s and DDD'ing my Supalobba hehe.

Requiring 3 HQs to take the Command Detachment is hardly an issue with orks to get the LoW kutlure rules.

I liked the kill tank alot more when it was 30% cheaper lol Also really blows that it doenst have a melee weapon.

Garg squig may still be a pretty competitive options considering the two super lobbas, 8 big shootas. thats alot for 400ish points

edit: bummer you cant use ramming speed or advance and charge since its not a vehilce.

Yeah the gargquig is in this weird spot in terms of unit types.

Its not a vehicle, so no mek repairs, speedwaaagh (oh god...thatd be epic), or vehicle strats.
Its also not an infantry (duh) so no painboy stuff, which on one note makes sense (hows a painboy gonna help that massive thing?) but on the other really bugs me since its still a living thing.

Also its 500pts with max bigshootas and 2 lobbas. Thats why i swap a lobba for killkannon, WAAAAY less points for tbh not terribly less dakka. Gargsquig suffers from heavy weapon movement anyway and that thing MUST move (unless i missed a rule somewhere)

Thanks everyone for trusting me with these threads

I'll go with BCB's suggestion of creating a new thread once the FAQ hits, which will hopefully eliminate most of the rules confusion discussions.

 Dr.Duck wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
yeah and both of our supers in FW absolutely love kultures and DDD.

Both the Gargsquig and Killtank have quite a bit of dakka, though obviously the Killtank has more of it. I look forward to running my gargsquig with reroll 1s and DDD'ing my Supalobba hehe.

Requiring 3 HQs to take the Command Detachment is hardly an issue with orks to get the LoW kutlure rules.

I liked the kill tank alot more when it was 30% cheaper lol Also really blows that it doenst have a melee weapon.

Garg squig may still be a pretty competitive options considering the two super lobbas, 8 big shootas. thats alot for 400ish points

edit: bummer you cant use ramming speed or advance and charge since its not a vehilce.

Does the tank need one? The kill krusha is S8+2 and has 8 attacks with the reinforced ram and does mortals on a 2+ when charging. Combine that with ramming speed for 2d3 mortals plus it can move and fire heavy weapons without penalty and its passengers can shoot. To me they are both good options and I will be converting both a garg squig and a killkrusha

HI all!
Where are the points for the KillKrusha?
I've got the datafax from the Xenos update,
but can't find the points... just power level...
? help?

 NOLA Chris wrote:
HI all!
Where are the points for the KillKrusha?
I've got the datafax from the Xenos update,
but can't find the points... just power level...
? help?

From the FW Index FAQ

Q: What datasheets should I use for Grot Bomb Launchas, Attack Fightas, Fighta-Bommers, Dethrolla Battle Fortresses, Kill Krushas, Raven Strike Fighters, Knarloc Riders, Great Knarlocs and Firestorms?
A: It is an unfortunate truth that we can’t continue indefinitely to sell and support every model we’ve ever made. As we make new models, and new books to explore their background and rules, we have to stop producing and featuring some older models. But just like many of you, we still treasure our collections of older miniatures, and we still want to be able to use them in games and forge glorious narratives on the tabletop! As such, the datasheets for these classic models can be found below, but they are intended for use in open play or narrative play games; they are not designed or approved for use in matched play games (as they won’t, for example, have any points values).

Note that the Ork datasheets have been updated to have the Dakka, Dakka, Dakka! ability from Codex: Orks.

Basically, no Matched Play for you.

ah well,
thanks for the info!
for fun it is!!

So, something just occurred to me -
Do I have to fight with the tankhammer?
Because if I fight with it against something I don't want to use it against, I'll lose a model for nothing.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So, something just occurred to me -
Do I have to fight with the tankhammer?
Because if I fight with it against something I don't want to use it against, I'll lose a model for nothing.

All models have h2h weapon. Use it

tneva82 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So, something just occurred to me -
Do I have to fight with the tankhammer?
Because if I fight with it against something I don't want to use it against, I'll lose a model for nothing.

All models have h2h weapon. Use it

Isn't that replaced by a cwc, such as the tankweapon or am I thinking of another edition again?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So, something just occurred to me -
Do I have to fight with the tankhammer?
Because if I fight with it against something I don't want to use it against, I'll lose a model for nothing.

All models have h2h weapon. Use it

Isn't that replaced by a cwc, such as the tankweapon or am I thinking of another edition again?

It used to be that only models with no other CCW had the "basic profile" ccw. After this caused issues with Carnifexes and Raiders among others, and was pointed out to be generally pretty stupid, they errata'd it so now EVERYONE has the basic profile CCW, period. As per the rules for the Fight Phase, you can choose to make your attacks with any weapon you have, or split between them, etc.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So, something just occurred to me -
Do I have to fight with the tankhammer?
Because if I fight with it against something I don't want to use it against, I'll lose a model for nothing.

All models have h2h weapon. Use it

Isn't that replaced by a cwc, such as the tankweapon or am I thinking of another edition again?

It used to be that only models with no other CCW had the "basic profile" ccw. After this caused issues with Carnifexes and Raiders among others, and was pointed out to be generally pretty stupid, they errata'd it so now EVERYONE has the basic profile CCW, period. As per the rules for the Fight Phase, you can choose to make your attacks with any weapon you have, or split between them, etc.

Ok, great, so my tankbusters don't have to kill themselves to kill a maximum of 3 light infantry if they find themselves in combat with them. That's good to know.

 NOLA Chris wrote:
HI all!
Where are the points for the KillKrusha?
I've got the datafax from the Xenos update,
but can't find the points... just power level...
? help?

There are points for the Kill Tanks on Battlescribe

 Elfric wrote:

 NOLA Chris wrote:
HI all!
Where are the points for the KillKrusha?
I've got the datafax from the Xenos update,
but can't find the points... just power level...
? help?

There are points for the Kill Tanks on Battlescribe

Which without source is irrelevant. Bs isn't rules

 Elfric wrote:

 NOLA Chris wrote:
HI all!
Where are the points for the KillKrusha?
I've got the datafax from the Xenos update,
but can't find the points... just power level...
? help?

There are points for the Kill Tanks on Battlescribe

Kill Tanks are not Kill Krushas. Kill Tanks have an entry in the FW index and have a points value. Kill Krushas do not.

I don't see a problem playing my Kill Krusha as one of the Kill Tanks. Sure, you lose a few special rules, but I'd say it's close enough in size and ability.

Okay tournament report. Casual tournament, 1750 pts. Took following ork list>



First game was against following daemons:





Picture from my T1

So. My warlord trait helped here as he had put fleshhounds on right behind LOS block and fleshhounds on left were blocked by wall in center from lootas so after I seized I redeployed lootas on my left. T1 I thus shot them to death but not much else. Maybe 3 wounds to leviathan by tank bustas. 2+ save sucks. Tank busta -2 is bit lacking. He advanced with plague bearers of "we don't die". T2 I screwed up and brought both evil sun mobs and charged them and bikes and trike into the plaguebearers from hell. I killed like over 20 but some darn character gives 2d6 pick lowest and he used CP reroll so got 1 which meant autopass with d6(1) plague bearers BACK. Darn. In return 2x20 bloodletters deepstriked near both mobs and killed them.

After that I just was being wiped out and couldn't get any objectives either as I was cornered in and...well those plaguebearers locked me in combat long and then bloodletters. Leviathan fired twice at lootas killing 3 lootas and 26 grots. Loooots of D2 shots were murder and only very good 2+ rolling(Seeing each wound has 30% chance of killing basically loota+grot) kept lootas in. Daemon prince also charged and nearly died to overwatch and then died in h2h though left only 1 loota left after 6 on morale. In the end almost wiped out and vp score was bazillion little so 0-20. Not much scoring when I'm securing and defending from his side. Weird move of game flash gits DS'ed near him and first had nurglings come and got held until flamers came, shot, charged and died but held enough that leviathan finished them off. Surprisingly good h2h still though.

Game2(2nd pic) was against following ultramarines:



First attachment pic from my T1. Notice my grots on bottom waaaaay ahead lootas. Guess who idiot moved them ahead and forgot grot screen. "Let's go get objective and add distance between front line and lootas". Yeah and loose lootas. Okay tank bustas got grot screen but with 2 damage only from some D2 weapon which then was 1 and 2 killing both tank busta and grot...Grot screen was actually bad there. Tank bustas I didn't get da jumped even with CP needing 6+ so didn't get to attack that flier and lootas failed to do it(didn't help I didn't remember wrecker strategem). KMK shot 1, rolled 1 and was killed with 5 wounds hsi turn. Bikes and trike charged and killed 7/10 veterans. T2 I da jumped flash gits to his corner which was pointless and bad and gave his plasma deredeo easy kill. Stupid. Evil sun boyz #1 deep striked and killed his warlord and hurt librarian. I killed the flier but got ironclad in my face. Maybe should have prepared for this and brought 2nd evil sun blob nearby hoping to get them there(and keep flashgits there to shoot at him). They came there later but then the 2xheavy flamer first fired 7 grots who tried to charge(to remove flamers vs boyz) and didn't even get there(6" charge...), then killed like 7 boyz(10 AGAIN), didn' get hurt much, fell back(only barely made charge so wasn't able to surround as scouts also had made mess with deep strike positioning) and he fell back and flamed 10 hits AGAIN. Weirdo move #4 of tournament was da jumping warlord to his 2nd corner and charge whirlwind. Good thing is he couldn't fall back due to my positioning and this also prevented taranteella shooting(have to shoot nearest which was in combat) but bad news was there was still lone veteran with power fist that got him killed.

In the end it was race would I be wiped. Last jump pack marine charged but didn't kill weirdboy. If game ends T5 I survive with 5-15. I survived, game end. I tried da jump to somewhere safer but failed and died. 0-20.

Game 3 was salamanders.




First mistake. Knew there was some weird character dreadnought with 8W. Didn't bother to check his stats more...

So. I got 1st turn again and due to deployment zone even flash gits were in range right away to enemy. I didn't pay much attention toward the dread yet figuring aggressors were priority for now. So lootas got more dakka, tank bustas took out aggressors. KMK caused 9 wounds to redemptor. Flash gits caused 2 wounds but armour saved. Lootas then finished off. I thought it was good start. I had however moved trike waaay too forward so on his turn getting reroll to charge spell to dreadnought it came in. First taste of him. 4 attacks, hits on 2+(salamander reroll available), S16, -4, Dam6...24 wounds and no way even 5+++ helped. Whoopsie. Okay aggressors out. Time to deal with it. Though tank bustas had lost 3 when they suffered 5 wounds and rolled 3 1's on grot screen. Darn...

T2. Considered bringing evil sun mob to help with dreadnought but still being oblivious on his stats(lessons learned: Check stats in advance) opted to keep in reserve. Shooting. More dakka to tank bustas and here I learned just what kind of tough thing it is and I swear my face went either sickly green or pale white when I realized I might prefer to have to kill Mortarion here...8 wounds isn't that bad but T9, 2+/5++/4+++!!!

Later I made calculations and even 15 bad moon tank busta shooting twice would cause like 6 wounds or so...Even had I had 10 tank bustas left and used both more dakka and wrecker I would average just 3 wounds...

...I definitely would have needed boyz and surround it and then let him kill 3-4 per turn(plus whatever his some sort of pistol flamer kills in his shooting phase as well) unless he brings reinforcements. What....a....monster. Flash gits and lootas fired as well and got 4 wounds in this round.

Bikes charged intercessors on left where they hacked each other until my turn 5 when remaining 2 bikes left sergeant alone to take objective. He chased, killed 1, charged and finally died.

His turn that thing flamed flash gits. 2d6 hits at S6, -3 damage flat 3...YIKES! I killed it on my turn 3(gork bless weirdboys) but then had hellblasters who killed my warlord. I killed them with lootas and on right 2 units of boyz deep striked and charged 5 intercessors guarding objective that was rolled as priority on supply drop. Other was also near them to which I later da jumped grots which spent game there(this was basically 6 vp's for me. 3 from supply drop, 1 for secure it and 2 for defend). On my turn 5 I screwed up a bit. I fell back with orks in combat with repulsor, librarian and captain. I left within 3" of captain giving heroic interfere but also vp for me. I was careless though and left also librarian so basically failed utterly. I also had to decide between da jump lootas into defend objective or into position to shoot warlord but without more dakka opted not to. Maybe mistake. Anyway his turn 5 repulsor moved and shot and charged 2nd mob(first one the characters dealt with) and thanks to 2 casualties in charge wiped them from supply drop. Not that it ended up mattering as game ended. Turn 6 I just hug cover as not much I could do. He killed lootas. Game went to 7th where weirdboy had chance to do 4vp da jump(master of warp, secure and defend same objective) but failed. He couldn't do anything either as weirdboy and 10 grots(my only survivors) were behind LOS. 12-8 victory for orks.

Ugh. What a bunch of mistakes whole tournament. Game 1 evil suns(maybe shouldn't have even seized and go 2nd and wait for bloodletters to drop in), game 2 grot screens, warlord and flash git da jumps and game 3 not checking dreadnought stats.

Apart from other prizes all 12 players got random space marine heroes model(the ones originally in Japan that come in random). Not sure what to do with it

@TnevevaI, looking back what would you have done different? Were there units you didn't rate or do you think better deployment would have helped?

I have a 1750 tournie coming up and originally I was going to take a Quins / Coven soup but I really want to give Orks a go:

Freebooters:
HQ: Warboss kill choppa, Warphead, K. Badrukk
Troops: 20 boyz with PK Nob, 10 Boyz, 10 Boyz, 10 Grots
Elites: 5 MANZ, Painboy, 8 Tankbustas
Heavy: 3 squads of 5 Flashgitz, Battlewagon, Bonebreaker
1 x trukk

Unfortunately I have no Mek Gunz but I do have a lot of Flashgitz and Meganobz.

Flash Gitz are still pretty bad unless you spend the CP for MOAR DAKKA!. MANZ are surprisingly good IF they get into combat, which means you have to be Evil Sunz and Tellyport them.

I just finished a casual to semi-competitive, 6 player, 1500 point tournament. The format was ITC Champions Packet: missions 2, 4, and 6. My Freebootaaarghs elite green tide went 2-1, placing 3rrrrd.

Aaargh! Idk how to do that fancy hats “Spoilers” fing to me list, so ‘ere she is:

Freebooterz Battalion
HQ1 Big Mek (KFF, BC, Warlord, “Follow Me Ladz”)
HQ2 Warboss (Da Killa Klaw)
T1 30 Boyz (Nob BC/Ch; Sl/Ch)
T2 10 Boyz (Nob BC/Ch; Shootas)
T3 10 Boyz (Nob BC/Ch; Shootas)

Freebooterz Battalion
HQ1 Weirdboy ‘Scrap Prospektor Nazgrub Wurrzag’ (Warphead, Fists of Gork, Da Jump)
HQ2 Weirdboy (Da Jump)
T1 10 Boyz (Nob BC/Ch; Shootas)
T2 10 Grots
T3 10 Grots

Freebooterz Vanguard
HQ1 Big Mek on Warbike (KFF, PKL)
ELT1 5 Nobz (1x PKL/Ch, 4x BC/Ch, Ammo Runt)
ELT2 3 Meganobz (PKL, KSh)
ELT3 10 Tankbustaaarghs (Rokkits, 2 Bomb Squigs)
DT1 Chinork Warkopta (2x Deffguns, BSh)
FAST1 25 Stormboyz (Nob BC/Ch)
FAST2 10 Stormboyz (Nob BC/Ch)

The matches were capped at 2.5 hours, so all my games ended at the end of the 3rd battle round. Both of my wins would have continued to go in my favor; the Alaitoc Eldar list was too focused on anti-Armour (final score 14-9), but the Space Wolves I defeated (final score 17-13) were a good match that I expected to lose (especially after he made me take the first turn, which initially worked to his advantage, except that I da jump sacrificed my 30 boyz as bait which ended up shooting him in the foot). My loss against the tournament winner’s Necrons (final score 11-19) was not a surprise given the amount of Tesla and mortal wounds, plus his experience, plus my lack of knowledge about that faction, and this match was mission 2 with only 3 objectives and he went first.

I focused on objectives/outmaneuvering/board control and less on rush forward and krump (though there still was plenty of krumping after turn 1, especially once you trigger the clan kultur in the fight phase which is essentially a free waaagh! banner).

The smash boss build with Fists of Gork plus Da Killa Klaw was even better than I’d hoped, especially after you get the +1 to hit from the kultur. I’ve decided to call him Kaptin Krump. Waaaaarrrrrgh!!!

 Elfric wrote:
@TnevevaI, looking back what would you have done different? Were there units you didn't rate or do you think better deployment would have helped?

Well couldn't bring full nastyness for casual but say swap fist of gork weirdboy, bikes and flashgit plus kmk for 3 dreads and 3 smasha guns. One kmk easily taken out. Bikes were always meh. And deep striking hard hitting stuff with small footprint would be good. Boyz was hard to get all into combat or even fit to usefull spots.

In game report told biggests thing to do differently

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Flash Gitz are still pretty bad unless you spend the CP for MOAR DAKKA!. MANZ are surprisingly good IF they get into combat, which means you have to be Evil Sunz and Tellyport them.

Can you elaborate?

I don't see how Flash Gits and Moar Dakka interact in any meaningful way besides upping the damage output by ~16%

Across 30 shots, Moar Dakka results roughly 2.5 additional hits when standing still and 1.66 when moving. Without the stratagem they get 17.5 hits when standing still or 11.66 hits when moving. This cannot be what makes or brakes the unit.

I don't think they're bad but if they had access to one Amm Runt per Flash Gitz, instead of one every five dudes, they could have been very good.

I haven't made up my mind yet, but my gut feeling is that I basically get a unit with 10 blight launchers (27 ppm in a plague marine unit). Blight launchers are awesome.

BCB's argument just doesn't make sense to me, so I'm asking for reasons.

Am I really the only one with the pet peeve that everyone writes "moar dakka" instead of what it clearly states in the codex "more dakka!"?

Flash Gits are far too expensive. 30ppm with 2W, T4 and a 4+ save? No thanks.

Their damage output is OK but short ranged so it puts them at massive risk. Their weapon should not be heavy either. They need to move to use it.

They can and will be focussed then killed. Every game.

I'm sure there are some niche applications where they can perform better than I'd expect but I'm really struggling to see the value.

7th edition, flash gits are BS5+ and get +1 to hit when standing still. Everybody is moving them all over the place.

8th edition, flash gits are BS4+ and get -1 to hit when moving. "They cannot move, ever!"



(Not directed specifically at you, Englishman, you see this all over the internet )

 Jidmah wrote:
I haven't made up my mind yet, but my gut feeling is that I basically get a unit with 10 blight launchers (27 ppm in a plague marine unit). Blight launchers are awesome.

BCB's argument just doesn't make sense to me, so I'm asking for reasons.

Blight launchers are on platform "bit" tougher than flash gits(who needs grot screen badly but for that needs freeboota detachment) on assault rather than heavy. Okay extra shot but 3+ and not suffering -1 to hit for moving(essential to move with 24" range) compensates. Better damage ratio on flashgits is nice though


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:
7th edition, flash gits are BS5+ and get +1 to hit when standing still. Everybody is moving them all over the place.

8th edition, flash gits are BS4+ and get -1 to hit when moving. "They cannot move, ever!"



(Not directed specifically at you, Englishman, you see this all over the internet )

Everybody moves them because out of range is impossible to hit.

Doesn't make it particularly good thing to do though have to accept minus to hit. But hitting on bad odds is better than flat out impossible to hit.

 Jidmah wrote:
7th edition, flash gits are BS5+ and get +1 to hit when standing still. Everybody is moving them all over the place.

8th edition, flash gits are BS4+ and get -1 to hit when moving. "They cannot move, ever!"



(Not directed specifically at you, Englishman, you see this all over the internet )

Comparing 7th Ed to 8th Ed is like comparing apples and a PlayStation 4.

I don't recall a huge number of Flash Gits used in 7th either though...

what up my git gobs, i added a new bit to the 1st post where i added some suggested tactics/wargears/kultures/strategems for our many vehicles. let me know if i made any mistakes and ill correct them. also feel free to private message me if you would like to add any type of comprehensive guide. ill review it and add it as a spoiler.

Something I have noticed about my evil sun deep striking boyz is that they are now much more vulnerable to morale than I\m used to with boyz. If you go elsewhere with each squad then they can't utilize each other LD. Even if they are together killing ~15 boyz from each squad isn't that hard so they are both basically losing d6 worth of models in addition.

Makes me think dreads instead of boyz is starting to look more and more appeal for deep strike role.

tneva82 wrote:
Something I have noticed about my evil sun deep striking boyz is that they are now much more vulnerable to morale than I\m used to with boyz. If you go elsewhere with each squad then they can't utilize each other LD. Even if they are together killing ~15 boyz from each squad isn't that hard so they are both basically losing d6 worth of models in addition.

Makes me think dreads instead of boyz is starting to look more and more appeal for deep strike role.

If it's just one unit you're deepstriing in, sure deffdreads seem ideal. But you could also add a 30 strong mob of stormboyz and multiple kmandos to your deepstrike too. 60 Boyz, 30 stormies and 15Kommandos spawning in and you've got Semper's index list posing a massive headache turn 2.

tneva82 wrote:
Something I have noticed about my evil sun deep striking boyz is that they are now much more vulnerable to morale than I\m used to with boyz. If you go elsewhere with each squad then they can't utilize each other LD. Even if they are together killing ~15 boyz from each squad isn't that hard so they are both basically losing d6 worth of models in addition.

Makes me think dreads instead of boyz is starting to look more and more appeal for deep strike role.

You can run both: Deff Dreads, Gorkanaut or Meganobz by Tellyporta and Boyz by da jump. Boyz are for tarpit stuff or anti infantries, Dreads are anti tank. Two very different roles.

Sluggaloo wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Something I have noticed about my evil sun deep striking boyz is that they are now much more vulnerable to morale than I\m used to with boyz. If you go elsewhere with each squad then they can't utilize each other LD. Even if they are together killing ~15 boyz from each squad isn't that hard so they are both basically losing d6 worth of models in addition.

Makes me think dreads instead of boyz is starting to look more and more appeal for deep strike role.

If it's just one unit you're deepstriing in, sure deffdreads seem ideal. But you could also add a 30 strong mob of stormboyz and multiple kmandos to your deepstrike too. 60 Boyz, 30 stormies and 15Kommandos spawning in and you've got Semper's index list posing a massive headache turn 2.

Yeah, units that can just come in without using tellyporta are great.
Keep in mind too that you can use the tellyporta to drop in a transport full of boyz as well. So an evil sun Battlewagon with deff rolla + 20 boys + Ramming speed could be a nasty surprise. That's power level 19, and as such can be tellyported in.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Sluggaloo wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Something I have noticed about my evil sun deep striking boyz is that they are now much more vulnerable to morale than I\m used to with boyz. If you go elsewhere with each squad then they can't utilize each other LD. Even if they are together killing ~15 boyz from each squad isn't that hard so they are both basically losing d6 worth of models in addition.

Makes me think dreads instead of boyz is starting to look more and more appeal for deep strike role.

If it's just one unit you're deepstriing in, sure deffdreads seem ideal. But you could also add a 30 strong mob of stormboyz and multiple kmandos to your deepstrike too. 60 Boyz, 30 stormies and 15Kommandos spawning in and you've got Semper's index list posing a massive headache turn 2.

Yeah, units that can just come in without using tellyporta are great.
Keep in mind too that you can use the tellyporta to drop in a transport full of boyz as well. So an evil sun Battlewagon with deff rolla + 20 boys + Ramming speed could be a nasty surprise.

Exactly. The way I look at it is, if you're looking to play evil sunz to make use of the more guaranteed deepstrike, and you're not utilizing deepstrike to its fullest potential, you're better off with another clan kultur.

Evil Sunz are probably the best stand-alone Kultur, really. Especially for a "typical" ork army.

I tried Deathskulls the other day, and I found it underwhelming. The 6++ invul didn't really do much, as my army was infantry heavy and as such drew small arms fire, and the single still isn't that useful for most weapons.

I think Deathskulls are best for a "mek" army, something that uses a lot of walkers, a lot of heavy vehicles and a lot of single shot, high damage weapons.
SAG would love it, KMB units would love it, ork vehicles would love it because they will be facing high AP weapons, so the invul would be more useful than on infantry. The warlord trait and relic hints at this, as Opportunist's sniping ability works on shooting attacks (big meks have better guns), and the relic is a lot better on a unit that already has mekaniak.
The problem with deathskulls on infantry is that your opponent isn't going to bother using high AP on 6+ save models, so that invul doesn't come into play. On vehicles though you will be rolling that 6++ invul a lot.
Deathskulls on infantry is only really going to be useful against necrons and primaris, as they have -1 save modifiers on their basic weapons.

 Blackie wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Something I have noticed about my evil sun deep striking boyz is that they are now much more vulnerable to morale than I\m used to with boyz. If you go elsewhere with each squad then they can't utilize each other LD. Even if they are together killing ~15 boyz from each squad isn't that hard so they are both basically losing d6 worth of models in addition.

Makes me think dreads instead of boyz is starting to look more and more appeal for deep strike role.

You can run both: Deff Dreads, Gorkanaut or Meganobz by Tellyporta and Boyz by da jump. Boyz are for tarpit stuff or anti infantries, Dreads are anti tank. Two very different roles.

And then you run out of points from tankbustas, lootas and mek guns which have bigger impact than boyz. Boyz don't even hit that hard especially since it's fairly easy for opponent to make good spots to deep strike hard and prevent all from reaching combat.

Sure one can have boyz AND dreads but that then results in less punch...

tneva82 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Something I have noticed about my evil sun deep striking boyz is that they are now much more vulnerable to morale than I\m used to with boyz. If you go elsewhere with each squad then they can't utilize each other LD. Even if they are together killing ~15 boyz from each squad isn't that hard so they are both basically losing d6 worth of models in addition.

Makes me think dreads instead of boyz is starting to look more and more appeal for deep strike role.

You can run both: Deff Dreads, Gorkanaut or Meganobz by Tellyporta and Boyz by da jump. Boyz are for tarpit stuff or anti infantries, Dreads are anti tank. Two very different roles.

And then you run out of points from tankbustas, lootas and mek guns which have bigger impact than boyz. Boyz don't even hit that hard especially since it's fairly easy for opponent to make good spots to deep strike hard and prevent all from reaching combat.

Sure one can have boyz AND dreads but that then results in less punch...

I don't know, you'll have 30-40 boyz and 3 dreads in your opponent's face in turn 1. It's basically 500 points of stuff plus the weirdboy, which you may want anyway since it's the cheapest HQ.

I'm not even a fan of deepstriking stuff and I prefer going full vehicles but if you don't want to invest 600ish points of BWs and trukks like me that deep striking combo isn't that expensive points wise. Orks are still an assault oriented army, gunlines and MSU shooty ork lists don't work at competitive levels. Lootas, tankbustas and mek gunz all together are probably too much points invested in the shooting face unless you're not maximizing these units, but then they'll underperform. When I field 2x10 tankbustas (plus 2 bomb squigs each) in trukks and 3 mek gunz I don't feel like I need more firepower, not more ranged anti tank at least.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Evil Sunz are probably the best stand-alone Kultur, really. Especially for a "typical" ork army.

I tried Deathskulls the other day, and I found it underwhelming. The 6++ invul didn't really do much, as my army was infantry heavy and as such drew small arms fire, and the single still isn't that useful for most weapons.

I think Deathskulls are best for a "mek" army, something that uses a lot of walkers, a lot of heavy vehicles and a lot of single shot, high damage weapons.
SAG would love it, KMB units would love it, ork vehicles would love it because they will be facing high AP weapons, so the invul would be more useful than on infantry. The warlord trait and relic hints at this, as Opportunist's sniping ability works on shooting attacks (big meks have better guns), and the relic is a lot better on a unit that already has mekaniak.
The problem with deathskulls on infantry is that your opponent isn't going to bother using high AP on 6+ save models, so that invul doesn't come into play. On vehicles though you will be rolling that 6++ invul a lot.
Deathskulls on infantry is only really going to be useful against necrons and primaris, as they have -1 save modifiers on their basic weapons.

Evil Sunz kultur adds nothing to the shooting phase though. I'd never take a single detachment with that kultur. Deathskulls can have some re-rolls and they have a very effective stratagem against vehicles.

Heavy Bolters and Assaul Cannons are very popular in imperium armies so that 6++ matters against a lot of stuff. I go Dis Cannons spam with my Drukhari which also serves as anti infantries. With multiple detachments I'd never take Deathskulls though but Bad Moons plus Evil Sunz/Goffs since they're decent jack of trades but they are excellent in nothing: Bad Moons are better shooters and Evil Sunz/Goffs are more effective in combat.

Actually the Evil suns do add something to shooting. You can advance and not suffer any penalty for firing assault weapons.
So instead of hitting on 6s after advancing, you'd be hitting on 5+.

We will see how things happen competitively. However 8th index orks even da jumped had a hard enough time making that charge.
Evil suns with the change to ere we go reroll effectively makes that charge highly reliable.
As much as people want to tout ork shooting it still sucks. Gitz are still overpriced and all over the place and not even impressive when in an ideal situation.
Lootas are still random shots, expensive, and glass cannons that again aren’t that impressive unless you start stacking command points on them.
Mek guns continue to be durable and good price point and strong shooting however they care absolutely nothing about most kulturs.
And tankbustas are awesome but extremely short range and glass cannons but need to be deepstruck in or transport and literally die every game I use them turn 1-2. They are best with. Badmoons but you are basically taking this clan for a 1 unit rental.
Orks are by and far best and have been best even during the index and not much has changed with ork units as assault horse army.
Ork boys have a hard time doing the heavy lifting now and are best as a screen killer or getting into combat with other low save infantry.
Ork HQs hit like a truck. Dreads hit hard. The best relics are still assault oriented. Even the best vehicles have better assault profiles as are our strategems geared for assault.
If you push orks into a shooting war you will lose to shooting armies and maybe most assault lists.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Flash Gitz are still pretty bad unless you spend the CP for MOAR DAKKA!. MANZ are surprisingly good IF they get into combat, which means you have to be Evil Sunz and Tellyport them.

Can you elaborate on why they are bad? What battle experience do you have with them? I have run them twice and they have been very good for me, especially when combined when Badrukk + Competitive Streak kicks in. You could also put MANZ in a Bonebreaker, put that on a Tellyporta and 3d6 charge it.

Most CCunits deepstriking, unless it is something with a high wound count like 3 Deff Dreads or something that can move 3d6 like an Eversor, is going to be failing 9 inch charges more than being successful.

I get you're the resident rules lawyer and sometimes that's a good thing but you have a very negative way of looking at this game. Do you only look at the bad rather than the good?

Sluggaloo wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Something I have noticed about my evil sun deep striking boyz is that they are now much more vulnerable to morale than I\m used to with boyz. If you go elsewhere with each squad then they can't utilize each other LD. Even if they are together killing ~15 boyz from each squad isn't that hard so they are both basically losing d6 worth of models in addition.

Makes me think dreads instead of boyz is starting to look more and more appeal for deep strike role.

If it's just one unit you're deepstriing in, sure deffdreads seem ideal. But you could also add a 30 strong mob of stormboyz and multiple kmandos to your deepstrike too. 60 Boyz, 30 stormies and 15Kommandos spawning in and you've got Semper's index list posing a massive headache turn 2.

Codex: Deep strike on display.

I played a tourny yesterday and I had 45 Deep striking Kommandos with 2 Bonebreakaz and 1 regular BW with a Deff Rolla AND a warboss wearing The Redder armor. On turn 2 they all appeared with 30 boyz jumping to meet them. I made almost every single charge and used the 3D6 strat on my BW with my warboss in it. in 3 out of 3 games my Warboss in BW made it into Combat turn 2 and got stuck in where he was near at the least 3 units, the rest of my Deep striking horde was attacking different units because on turn 3 my Warboss's redder armor kicked off and inflicted a lot of mortal wounds Every single opponent was so surprised they demanded to see the codex entry

Codex: Deep Strike works really well against opponents and the only downside I can see is it has a hard time dealing with screens. I am debating about whether or not to take a Dakkajet to help with this or rely on maybe a Jumping Shoota boyz mob that dumpz everything into screening units and charges to open a hole turn 1. Feels like a waste of 210pts.....wish it was still 180

Evil Sunz Kustom Boosta-blastas seem great for dealing with screens.

I've never met a screen that a da jump mob couldn't clear turn 1. I think that's honestly the biggest problem with warbikers, dakkajets, snazzwagins and other chaff clearers: we have a troops option now that's so reliable at that it's tough to consider anything else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Evil Sunz Kustom Boosta-blastas seem great for dealing with screens.

Kbb = 5.6 dead geq 100 points
Snazzwagon = 3.9 dead geq 100? Points
Dakkajet = 6.3 dead geq 140? Points
5 warbikes = 4.3 dead geq 118? Points

Worth noting that the warbikes can charge and kill an additional 4.3 in melee. Kbb is nice in that like the Snazzwagon it's at a lower price point but hard to hit and 3+ save and 12 wounds is nice on the Dakkajet.

SemperMortis wrote:
Codex: Deep Strike works really well against opponents and the only downside I can see is it has a hard time dealing with screens. I am debating about whether or not to take a Dakkajet to help with this or rely on maybe a Jumping Shoota boyz mob that dumpz everything into screening units and charges to open a hole turn 1. Feels like a waste of 210pts.....wish it was still 180

Shootaboys might just be the best way to open up the board for you. I like how you've tried a list that's very similar to one I'm currently trying to put together myself. I too want to try BBBWs +BW rush with evilsunz deepstrike support. Only difference is I'm looking to have all my Battlewagons filled with goffs. Bonebrekers filled withx10 nobz, normal BWs filled with 20 strong Skarboyz. Evil sunz deepstrike removes all chaff, and open up the board for S5 boyz+nobz and bonebreaker S9 + mortal wounds onto high toughness vehicles. Plus the enemy can't really shoot at anything T1 other than a load of T8 vehicles that could be supported by KFF. That's the plan anyway.

I find interesting you put to use Redder armor, you're the first I've seen here that's gotten good results with it,, please elaborate.

At the minute I'm putting ogether some scrap built Mekgunz, I never ran them in the index and they seem to be strong still. I'm actually hoping that in the FAQ they'll give them clan kulturs, though I feel they might be too strong with them. Just imagine deffskullz mekguns rerolling everything....

tneva82 wrote:
Okay tournament report. Casual tournament, 1750 pts. Took following ork list>

Spoiler:

Deathskull battalion

HQ1: Weirdboy(da jump) 62
HQ2: Weirdboy(fist of gork) 62
Troop1: 13xgretchin 39
Troop2: 13xgretchin 39
Troop3: 13xgretchin 39
Elite1: 10xtank busta(nob boss) 170
Heavy1: 15xlootas 255
Heavy2: 5xflash git 150

Evil sun battalion

HQ1: Deffkilla wartrike (super cybork body) 120
HQ2: Warboss(warlord: kunning but brutal, power klaw, kustom shoota) 80
HQ3: weirdboy(da jump) 62
Troop1: 30xboyz(19xchoppa&slugga, 10xshoota, nob w/power klaw) 223
Troop2: 30xboyz(29xchoppa&slugga, nob w/big choppa) 215
Troop3: 10xgretchin 30
Fast1: 6xwarbikes(nob w/big choppa) 143
Heavy1: Mek gun(Kustom mega kannon) 60

total: 1749

Question - do you think that going Bad Moons with the first battalion would have helped?
Besides, I think Flash Gitz should cost 4 pts less, lootas at least 2 less.

SemperMortis wrote:
Codex: Deep strike on display.

I played a tourny yesterday and I had 45 Deep striking Kommandos with 2 Bonebreakaz and 1 regular BW with a Deff Rolla AND a warboss wearing The Redder armor. On turn 2 they all appeared with 30 boyz jumping to meet them. I made almost every single charge and used the 3D6 strat on my BW with my warboss in it. in 3 out of 3 games my Warboss in BW made it into Combat turn 2 and got stuck in where he was near at the least 3 units, the rest of my Deep striking horde was attacking different units because on turn 3 my Warboss's redder armor kicked off and inflicted a lot of mortal wounds Every single opponent was so surprised they demanded to see the codex entry

Codex: Deep Strike works really well against opponents and the only downside I can see is it has a hard time dealing with screens. I am debating about whether or not to take a Dakkajet to help with this or rely on maybe a Jumping Shoota boyz mob that dumpz everything into screening units and charges to open a hole turn 1. Feels like a waste of 210pts.....wish it was still 180

We're running lists that function similarly, i have 2 BW w/ deff rollas running 10 nobz and gretchin in each, and a bunch of deep strike boyz. I currently run 1 dakkajet, and I tell ya it's good at clearing, but it's just not enough (i'm snakebites, largely). I'm planning on 30 dajumping boyz as a suicide mission to clear room on top of my already included dakkajet. That or I go up to three dakkajets. This has been my feeling vs imperial soup, chaos daemons, and even against an eldar list with only 15 rangers to screen (and wave serpents), 1 dakkajet isn't enough IMO.

Honestly though, I hate turn 1 jump suicides. It feels like you're just gifting them max damage output for their first turn. 3 dakkajets might clear the way by turn 3 for me to drop everything all at once and do a proper overload. Dakkajets also protect your characters at times, move block knights really well, and soak up shots for your battlewagons (and by god, those units are so good with deff rollas and a deffkilla wartrike. Like I might even take them without filling them up).

Three could even go in a flyer detachment for +1 CP and the kulture of your choice.

Sluggaloo wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Codex: Deep Strike works really well against opponents and the only downside I can see is it has a hard time dealing with screens. I am debating about whether or not to take a Dakkajet to help with this or rely on maybe a Jumping Shoota boyz mob that dumpz everything into screening units and charges to open a hole turn 1. Feels like a waste of 210pts.....wish it was still 180

Shootaboys might just be the best way to open up the board for you. I like how you've tried a list that's very similar to one I'm currently trying to put together myself. I too want to try BBBWs +BW rush with evilsunz deepstrike support. Only difference is I'm looking to have all my Battlewagons filled with goffs. Bonebrekers filled withx10 nobz, normal BWs filled with 20 strong Skarboyz. Evil sunz deepstrike removes all chaff, and open up the board for S5 boyz+nobz and bonebreaker S9 + mortal wounds onto high toughness vehicles. Plus the enemy can't really shoot at anything T1 other than a load of T8 vehicles that could be supported by KFF. That's the plan anyway.

I find interesting you put to use Redder armor, you're the first I've seen here that's gotten good results with it,, please elaborate.

At the minute I'm putting ogether some scrap built Mekgunz, I never ran them in the index and they seem to be strong still. I'm actually hoping that in the FAQ they'll give them clan kulturs, though I feel they might be too strong with them. Just imagine deffskullz mekguns rerolling everything....

Redder armor is just a nice niche for a Warboss in a transport. I put him in the BW to force my opponent to choose between Bone breakers that do a ton of CC damage or a regular BW with a deff Rolla, in all 3 games nobody targetted the BW, mostly because they thought "why blow up the Warboss transport when bonebreakers are shredding me". So once he gets into CC you just position him so that he is relatively close to 2+ units and you get a pretty damned good chance of rolling a 4+ to inflict mortal wounds to the enemy. It is especially glorious if you can get close to armies with HQ Batteries. Running that into a group of 3+ HQ units is just devastating.

The trick to the Codex: Deep Strike is to overload one flank with too many threats so that the enemy has to devote a lot of his good stuff to that side, than you Deep strike behind that flank and hit his rear echelon units from behind and destroy them. Than you are in a position where you control 3/4ths of the board and he is left with little to do besides plink away at T8 4+ saves until the end of the game.

I might be misunderstanding what you mean there Semper but I'm pretty sure the character with rezmekkas redder armour only deals mortal wounds while still embarked on the transport..

That relic has sort of worked for me when I used it. The extra move is always welcome but so far I've rolled 0 out of 4 on that 4+. It has some potential I guess but I'm not sold on it

PiñaColada wrote:
I might be misunderstanding what you mean there Semper but I'm pretty sure the character with rezmekkas redder armour only deals mortal wounds while still embarked on the transport..

That relic has sort of worked for me when I used it. The extra move is always welcome but so far I've rolled 0 out of 4 on that 4+. It has some potential I guess but I'm not sold on it

Yup, he stays embarked the entire time, but if they ever do destroy his transport, he hops out, feths things up and hops back into a bonebreaker

Ah, gotcha! I guess that works, I've just put it on a cheapo mek everytime

i dont know if someone has noticed this yet but...
big guns can use kultures and stratagems, since the gretchin are a separate unit and the gun itself is not gretchin, also while the grots nearby allow the gun to shoot it is still the gun that shoots. DS is the best for any squad of biggunz (except BM for lobbas). no strats are quite worth it becasue the squad still separates. grot shield for grots for another orc infantry unit. maybe throw some guns in tellyport?

while they wont have DDD they will have better shooting with either BM/DS.

something to be glad about while we still can use the index.

i added this info to the 1st post spoilers.

Isnt the FAQ supposed to drop around now?

I can seem to see a definitive on this, so I'm asking all owners of Gorka and Morkanauts. I have one about to be built and, not expert enough to magnetise. So, is there a consensus on which one is more useful this codex?

Not tournament good; just good? Either or?

 Rinkydink wrote:
I can seem to see a definitive on this, so I'm asking all owners of Gorka and Morkanauts. I have one about to be built and, not expert enough to magnetise. So, is there a consensus on which one is more useful this codex?

Not tournament good; just good? Either or?

Mork is pretty Meh. Gork has a niche.

So I played a couple of games tonight with 2 different 1000 point lists. Nothing hyper competitive, just a mix of units because I wanted to try out the strategies and kultures so I also kept the lists mono kukture for simplicity.
First up Evil Sunz vs Death guard, this did not go well.



As we were both practising with "new" armies, we went for a nice simple Annihilation game. (p191)

I was moderately confident about this, however I underestimated what a pain it is when your opponent puts all his troops in buildings and leaves no space for a charge. That and disgustingly resilient is awful. Long story short, even though I screened perfectly to counter charge his demon prince with both zhardsnark and my wartike, even getting mortal wounds to hit with zhardsnark and ramming speed with the trike, he managed to tank all my shooting, and charges from the trike, even though it was buffed with fists of Gork. He then proceeded to kill both my characters, whilst we could only chip the odd wound off here and there.

The buggies also plinked off wounds here and there before being pretty much shot off the board by the blight hauler one at a time. The 24" range on the rokkit kannon puts you right into range of their weapons, and he just got off some lucky damage.

Victory went to DG, they juse got some lucky kills, and their resilience is just incredible, they soaked up so much punishment. Lesson learnt, never get into combat with a demon prince of Nurgle, it's just depressing.

Minor victory for DG.

Game 2 was very, very different.

Deathskulls Vs Ultramarines



My opponent apologised for how much he had tailored the list to take on Orkz, but was singing a very different song after turn 1.

All the Boyz and one Mek went into a truck each, and hid behind buildings out the way except for one which my opponent ignored. He killed 2 smasha guns turn1 and plinked 1 wound on the third.
My SAG, remaining smasha kannons, kMb on my ma big mek and 2 trucks of Boyz with kmb meks then annihilated his predator, and a razorback whilst knocking wounds off another one. My third trukk wiped the second wounded razorback, Tokyo drifted into the third razorback and disembarked marines, and chucked 3 mortal wounds into them with ramming speed.

By turn 2 there were no marines left on the table at all.

Deathskulls re-rolls to hit, wound and damage are brutal when combined with KMB and rokkits.

The combination of a truck, with rokkit with all the re-rolls and 3 flat damage, with a rokkit boy with re-rolls and 3 flat damage plus tankbusta bomb, and a KMB mek with re-rolls and d6 rerollabale damage means that this troop and elite choice becomes a mini-tankbusta unit, no strategems needed. Plus 20 shoota shots for chaff clearance. For a total of 204pts, for trukk, mek and boyz it was obscenely good.

I had 3 of them. It created quite a stir. The amount of re-rollable d6 damage felt almost broken. Even the SAG was excellent, especially combined with dakka dakka. I finished the game with nearly all my cp left, I barely used them. My first opponent said he was glad he didn't face this list in our game, as he was sure that it would have tabled him too. Seeing how it performed, I'm inclined to agree.

Major victory for Orks

Meks with Deathskulls and a kmb for 31 points are absolutely amazing, especially that even with re-rolls, if you do get a natural 1 and reroll another 1 it's only a mortal wound, you have 2 more to go and you're not slain. My only doubt is that in order to take a kmb, it's an index option and the index damage is d3, not d6 as in the codex.

Is it correct to be able to take index options for war gear, but use the codex statline?