BAN wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Why take Traktor cannons against knights? Those aren't really efficient against them, imo. You'll be better off with KMK due to the higher number of shots.

This is an all comers list, testing for a tournament, sorry should have said. Will try it against a few different style armies

Ah, that makes more sense then. Looks good overall.

Awesome 1750 list tell me how it does

I feel bad for people who can’t use the index and a much lesser degree forgeworld. You are completely hampered by no index units. We lost so many options through GW discontinuing so many models. The main loss was the massive utility of so many aura characters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think another star unit people need to look at are evil sun burna kommandos.

They have been upgraded with the codex.
Evilsun kommandos can finally reliably make a charge.
Still have decent saves (with cover).
But can still have 2 burnas for free (index) and now Tankbusta Bombs which pair well with burna range.
And still use that kommando BC nob you got from forgeworld upgrade set (index).
With the price increase on boyz kommandos are a no brainer to help supplement that turn 2 beta strike.

Interesting warhammer TV stream today.

They went over several example lists, and made a large number of errors. By my count 3 of the 8 lists were illegal (ie points don't add up, detachments aren't legal), and one of them didn't work the way he said it did.

Some of that is just extremely casual player trying to talk about a new book.

But, I think the Gretchen restriction on Gretchen, Killa Kans, Mek Guns is going to catch out lots, and lots of people. He was convinced that Killa Kans got cover for being blood axes, and could leave combat and shoot, and that Mek Guns got the benefit of Freebootas.

Don't make the same mistake. Know your Gretchen.

I tabled him turn 4 go orks! I expected the trike to hit harder tbh though. The bonebreaker took some horrific damage in overwatch to a knight and so was a bit crap, I expected more.
Main thoughts are that I need some little fast units to soak up over watch, don’t know where I would lose the points from though

BAN wrote:
I tabled him turn 4 go orks! I expected the trike to hit harder tbh though. The bonebreaker took some horrific damage in overwatch to a knight and so was a bit crap, I expected more.
Main thoughts are that I need some little fast units to soak up over watch, don’t know where I would lose the points from though

Good going on the tabling.

Little Fast Units tend not to soak up knight overwatch, they tend to be vaporized by it, allowing the knight to kill multiple things on your turn.

Possibly an new, empty trukk.

BAN wrote:
I tabled him turn 4 go orks! I expected the trike to hit harder tbh though. The bonebreaker took some horrific damage in overwatch to a knight and so was a bit crap, I expected more.
Main thoughts are that I need some little fast units to soak up over watch, don’t know where I would lose the points from though

Have you considered grots? A full squad of 30 is only 90.
That's the only expendable unit I could think of. Orks don't have something that's cheap and fast.
Well, I guess you can use storm boyz, but that's a waste.

A sacrificial trukk might be a good idea.

I've been playing around with a pure Badmoons list.

The idea is I have a fire base of lootas and mek guns with the warboss and big mek to keep it safe.

Grots and shootas for board control and screening.

Then a cc threat from slugga boys, storm boys and scrapjets (well what ever is needed, shooting or charging)

I'd love some feedback.

BAN wrote:
I tabled him turn 4 go orks! I expected the trike to hit harder tbh though. The bonebreaker took some horrific damage in overwatch to a knight and so was a bit crap, I expected more.
Main thoughts are that I need some little fast units to soak up over watch, don’t know where I would lose the points from though

what warlord trait did you use? Brutal but kunnin will give you a to hit reroll and plus 1 damage
That usually should come out ahead of the +1 str +1 atk trait except maybe knights.
Would love to know which is better for trikeboss.

BAN wrote:
I tabled him turn 4 go orks! I expected the trike to hit harder tbh though. The bonebreaker took some horrific damage in overwatch to a knight and so was a bit crap, I expected more.
Main thoughts are that I need some little fast units to soak up over watch, don’t know where I would lose the points from though

Howd your MANZ do?

Also, wouldn't koptas be best for soaking up overwatch? Fast, cheap, somewhat durable, and can fight back with the rotors.

I took the rerolls vs vehicles and monsters one but then just before the game changed to the Evil Sunz fall back and charge one as the trike rerolls wounds anyway lol
My mate was good enough to just let me switch it because I was play testing.
@zend the Meganobz were great when they got in by turn 3, I used the boarding action with them in turn 2 but that sucked, 5 attacks hitting on 4s wounding on 3s wasn’t great and I rolled badly as well and it was the beast knight with a 4 up invul.... but it’s ok turn 3 they got out and slapped him silly

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

BAN wrote:
I tabled him turn 4 go orks! I expected the trike to hit harder tbh though. The bonebreaker took some horrific damage in overwatch to a knight and so was a bit crap, I expected more.
Main thoughts are that I need some little fast units to soak up over watch, don’t know where I would lose the points from though

Have you considered grots? A full squad of 30 is only 90.
That's the only expendable unit I could think of. Orks don't have something that's cheap and fast.
Well, I guess you can use storm boyz, but that's a waste.

A sacrificial trukk might be a good idea.

A Trukk is going to get blown to bits by Knight overwatch. Knights have relatively few shots for their cost so your best bet is to sent in a Boyz mob to eat overwatch (and a big enough mob will actually also shave a few wounds off of it) and then send in the model you actually want to kill the thing with.

 zend wrote:

BAN wrote:
I tabled him turn 4 go orks! I expected the trike to hit harder tbh though. The bonebreaker took some horrific damage in overwatch to a knight and so was a bit crap, I expected more.
Main thoughts are that I need some little fast units to soak up over watch, don’t know where I would lose the points from though

Howd your MANZ do?

Also, wouldn't koptas be best for soaking up overwatch? Fast, cheap, somewhat durable, and can fight back with the rotors.

Same as for the Trukk: Kopta's are 4W models that cost about 40-50 points each. Knights LOVE to overwatch those. To eat Knight overwatch you need to send in a horde of low-cost bodies so the Knight massively overkills them and your charge only costs 28 points (4 Boyz) instead of 80+ (2 or 3 Koptas). If you can somehow get Gretchin in reliable charging distance you should use those of course but under normal circumstances Evil Sunz Boyz are your best bet for overwatch soaking.

Pandabeer wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

BAN wrote:
I tabled him turn 4 go orks! I expected the trike to hit harder tbh though. The bonebreaker took some horrific damage in overwatch to a knight and so was a bit crap, I expected more.
Main thoughts are that I need some little fast units to soak up over watch, don’t know where I would lose the points from though

Have you considered grots? A full squad of 30 is only 90.
That's the only expendable unit I could think of. Orks don't have something that's cheap and fast.
Well, I guess you can use storm boyz, but that's a waste.

A sacrificial trukk might be a good idea.

A Trukk is going to get blown to bits by Knight overwatch. Knights have relatively few shots for their cost so your best bet is to sent in a Boyz mob to eat overwatch (and a big enough mob will actually also shave a few wounds off of it) and then send in the model you actually want to kill the thing with.

Alright, back to grot cannon fodder then. Much cheaper than boyz.

I used the mobbed up 40 boyz to multi charge 2 knights turn 1 then the Warboss bike and the trike charged and killed 1 in combat. So the boyz did their job but they were all dead by turn 2 after 2 rounds of combat with a night plus a round of shooting ( he fell back and charged again)

Can a stuck-in unit fire overwatch with pistols if it gets subsequently charged?

Coh Magnussen wrote:
Can a stuck-in unit fire overwatch with pistols if it gets subsequently charged?

A model "cannot fire [Overwatch] if there are any enemy models within 1" of it."

Considering that a charging unit will be more than 1" away from the unit, and you're within 1" of an enemy unit already, there is no possible way for the charging unit to be the closest unit, so the Pistol rule doesn't help.

BAN wrote:
I used the mobbed up 40 boyz to multi charge 2 knights turn 1 then the Warboss bike and the trike charged and killed 1 in combat. So the boyz did their job but they were all dead by turn 2 after 2 rounds of combat with a night plus a round of shooting ( he fell back and charged again)

Sweet it worked out well then that’s what I want to do as well. Use warpath and dajump as a screen clear.
Then Wartrike, warboss on bike, painboy on bike, zhardsnark and 3 scrapjets.
Did the evil sun trait help at all?

Yeh I think the evil suns worked, passed a couple of charges only because of the +1!

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Wouldn't the KMK be more efficient over all though, due to the higher number of shots? I mean, you do have to roll to hit, but you also get more than one shot.
I don't know, the tractor cannon's single shot doesn't appeal to me. You can only deal at most 6 damage, and that's if you are lucky. You need at least 2 if you want to deal good damage in a single turn, and I'd still rather use KMK just because of the extra shots, which means more damage overall.
In terms of priority and frequency, I would go KMK - Smasha - Traktor, with traktor only being available if there's room for it.
Bubblechucka is not even under consideration because its gak. What is even the point?

Going back to this a bit, the KMK is objectively worse than two Smasha guns at literally everything. Pay those 2 extra points to double your wounds, split your fire, get better range, better AP, more shots and no overheat.

The only time a KMK could possibly be a consideration is if you're somehow running out of Mek Gun slots.

BAN wrote:
Yeh I think the evil suns worked, passed a couple of charges only because of the +1!

sorry I mean the warlord trait evil suns is great for 9in charge.

I know you guys say Mek guns don't benefit from the kulturs, but it does say Units comprises "entirely" of gretchin. And the mekguns are vehicles and gretchin. So that's not entirely gretchin. What do you guys think about that? To me it feels like they do benefit.

Gruxz wrote:
I know you guys say Mek guns don't benefit from the kulturs, but it does say Units comprises "entirely" of gretchin. And the mekguns are vehicles and gretchin. So that's not entirely gretchin. What do you guys think about that? To me it feels like they do benefit.

Show us a model in the Mek Gun unit that does not have the <GRETCHIN> keyword....

Gruxz wrote:
I know you guys say Mek guns don't benefit from the kulturs, but it does say Units comprises "entirely" of gretchin. And the mekguns are vehicles and gretchin. So that's not entirely gretchin. What do you guys think about that? To me it feels like they do benefit.

Except they don't.
Read the entry where it says mek guns and gretchin count as a single model for all rules purposes.
Mek Guns are just oversized weapons for the gretchin.

gungo wrote:

BAN wrote:
Yeh I think the evil suns worked, passed a couple of charges only because of the +1!

sorry I mean the warlord trait evil suns is great for 9in charge.

Ahhh, well it was a bit of a hasty mistake I think I didn’t find much call to use it in this game really, tempted to take brutal but Kunning for the extra damage on the charge more than the reroll hits. Or the +1 toughness maybe can’t decide.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Wouldn't the KMK be more efficient over all though, due to the higher number of shots? I mean, you do have to roll to hit, but you also get more than one shot.
I don't know, the tractor cannon's single shot doesn't appeal to me. You can only deal at most 6 damage, and that's if you are lucky. You need at least 2 if you want to deal good damage in a single turn, and I'd still rather use KMK just because of the extra shots, which means more damage overall.
In terms of priority and frequency, I would go KMK - Smasha - Traktor, with traktor only being available if there's room for it.
Bubblechucka is not even under consideration because its gak. What is even the point?

Going back to this a bit, the KMK is objectively worse than two Smasha guns at literally everything. Pay those 2 extra points to double your wounds, split your fire, get better range, better AP, more shots and no overheat.

The only time a KMK could possibly be a consideration is if you're somehow running out of Mek Gun slots.

More shots? Its D3. You do get more minimum shots, but the max number of shots is the same.
Smasha guns also have that weird wounding thing where you have to exceed the targets toughness.
If I calculated it right, you have a 41% chance of wounding T8 and a 58% chance of wounding T7.

The KMK has a 50% chance of wounding T8 and a 66% chance of wounding T7.

Where the smasha gun excels though is against T4-T6; you have a 92% chance of wounding T4, a 83% chance of wounding T5 and a 72% chance of wounding T6.
In comparison, the KMK only has a wound chance of 83% against T4 and a 66% of wounding anything between T5-T7.

So against T7 and above, the KMK is statistically better if I calculated it right.
Against anything under that the Smasha Gun is statistically better.

So i had my first game with the new buggies and gotta say ive drastically dropped my opinion of the boostablasta.

Its range and lack of proper melee (since it has decent stats but no ap, charging for the Spiked Ram is about all i'd do with it) makes it highly vulnerable. I think its gotta stick to evil sunz so they can Drive By alot, since being so close they will get charged.

I think i just got lucky with my dragsta because holy crap it mulched so many primaris! actually forced my opponent to divert his attention to it instead of my deffdread trio (win for me!)

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Smasha guns also have that weird wounding thing where you have to exceed the targets toughness.
If I calculated it right, you have a 41% chance of wounding T8 and a 58% chance of wounding T7.

The KMK has a 50% chance of wounding T8 and a 66% chance of wounding T7.

You're right, I brainfarted for a moment and thought T7 was as high as it goes.

However, I believe that the extra 0.5 shots on average from 2 Smasha guns narrows the gap enough that with their extra point of AP it translates into more wounds even vs T7 or T8, as long as the target has a 3+ or better save and no invulnerable.

T8
KMK 3.5 shots * 1/2 to wound = 1.75 damage rolls
KMK 3.5 shots * 1/2 to wound * 5/6 to bypass 3+ save = 1.46 damage rolls
2 Smasha guns 4 shots * 0.41 to wound = 1.64 damage rolls

T7
KMK 3.5 * 2/3 = 2.33
KMK 3.5 * 2/3 * 5/6 to bypass 3+ save = 1.94
2 Smasha 4 * 0.58 = 2.32

So against T7 it's already a wash even before accounting for saves, against T8 it's a difference of 1/10th of a damage roll before saves. And considering two guns are much harder to shut down than one, I would say the KMK is still the wrong choice every time.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
So i had my first game with the new buggies and gotta say ive drastically dropped my opinion of the boostablasta.

Its range and lack of proper melee (since it has decent stats but no ap, charging for the Spiked Ram is about all i'd do with it) makes it highly vulnerable. I think its gotta stick to evil sunz so they can Drive By alot, since being so close they will get charged.

I think i just got lucky with my dragsta because holy crap it mulched so many primaris! actually forced my opponent to divert his attention to it instead of my deffdread trio (win for me!)

Ugh that’s a shame he’s the first buggy I’m painting. And I only run painted models.

Luckily I run Evil Sunz though and I’m hoping his melee is more of a supplement for the ‘main’ T1 chargers rather than the deciding factor.

Did you run any big squads of bikes/other T1 threats with it?

Is anyone else thinking of positioning their Dragster out of LOS then banking on getting the shock tunnel off to move wherever with impunity? Should help it stay alive T1.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
So i had my first game with the new buggies and gotta say ive drastically dropped my opinion of the boostablasta.

Its range and lack of proper melee (since it has decent stats but no ap, charging for the Spiked Ram is about all i'd do with it) makes it highly vulnerable. I think its gotta stick to evil sunz so they can Drive By alot, since being so close they will get charged.

I think i just got lucky with my dragsta because holy crap it mulched so many primaris! actually forced my opponent to divert his attention to it instead of my deffdread trio (win for me!)

Ugh that’s a shame he’s the first buggy I’m painting. And I only run painted models.

Luckily I run Evil Sunz though and I’m hoping his melee is more of a supplement for the ‘main’ T1 chargers rather than the deciding factor.

Did you run any big squads of bikes/other T1 threats with it?

Is anyone else thinking of positioning their Dragster out of LOS then banking on getting the shock tunnel off to move wherever with impunity? Should help it stay alive T1.

I've run the KBB twice now (both in smaller games of 1k). The first time he did almost literally nothing, my dice were crazy cold and I got zero hits out of the rivet gun from 2 turns. The second game he did manage to mow down a hellblaster squad in a single turn and flame 2 or 3 scouts. After that he was shot to pieces obviously.

It's probably still 10-15 points overcosted I think, and I have no idea when I'd actually use the spiked ram since it really doesn't want to be in CC and I don't play Blood Axes. So unless you're dedicating a lot of units to the charge and those potential mortal wounds would simply mean that if they go through they kill the target outright. So effectively the opponent can't interrupt you because you want to start your combat elsewhere, other than that I don't know why it has a spiked ram really

PiñaColada wrote:
It's probably still 10-15 points overcosted I think, and I have no idea when I'd actually use the spiked ram since it really doesn't want to be in CC and I don't play Blood Axes. So unless you're dedicating a lot of units to the charge and those potential mortal wounds would simply mean that if they go through they kill the target outright. So effectively the opponent can't interrupt you because you want to start your combat elsewhere, other than that I don't know why it has a spiked ram really

This sounds about right.

Yea the only time I’d use his ram is if I thought I could kill the target with the MW or following fight phase. Or possibly to tie up a unit I don’t want to fire at me.

Obviously I’d be charging units that can’t effectively hurt the KBB in combat too.

In my opinion, the KBB's job is to clear screens. With the charge, it's supposed to finish of tau warriors, guardsmen or scouts that have been hit by the rivet gun and the skorcha exhausts before.

Also to force units to fall back, bonking things like razorbacks, basilisks or shining spears simply shuts them off for a turn, no matter how much you kill.

 Jidmah wrote:
In my opinion, the KBB's job is to clear screens. With the charge, it's supposed to finish of tau warriors, guardsmen or scouts that have been hit by the rivet gun and the skorcha exhausts before.

Also to force units to fall back, bonking things like razorbacks, basilisks or shining spears simply shuts them off for a turn, no matter how much you kill.

I’m not sure I agree 100% on this. Surely the rivet gun is wasted on screens?

Also Shining Speara don’t care about falling back. They’ll fly right back into you after shooting you to bits to finish you off in combat.

Burna exhausts are definitely for screens though but I wonder if they’re supposed to be more of a charge deterrent than a real damage dealing thing? To put off those 10 guardsmen who want to shut your shooting down by bonking you with their lasguns. The rivet cannon is going into heavier infantry and light vehicles for me.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
In my opinion, the KBB's job is to clear screens. With the charge, it's supposed to finish of tau warriors, guardsmen or scouts that have been hit by the rivet gun and the skorcha exhausts before.

Also to force units to fall back, bonking things like razorbacks, basilisks or shining spears simply shuts them off for a turn, no matter how much you kill.

I’m not sure I agree 100% on this. Surely the rivet gun is wasted on screens?

Also Shining Speara don’t care about falling back. They’ll fly right back into you after shooting you to bits to finish you off in combat.

Burna exhausts are definitely for screens though but I wonder if they’re supposed to be more of a charge deterrent than a real damage dealing thing? To put off those 10 guardsmen who want to shut your shooting down by bonking you with their lasguns. The rivet cannon is going into heavier infantry and light vehicles for me.

Do the shining spear have some way to fall back and charge? Fly only allows shooting

tneva82 wrote:

Do the shining spear have some way to fall back and charge? Fly only allows shooting

I believe there's a craftworld that allows that. But honestly I'm wondering if they don't just kill it in your own combat phase, thus effectively just sacrificing your unit for nothing. Against a LR, stormsurge, land raider etc it's worth it but those opportunities are going to be rare.

EDIT: I found that, theoretically speaking, the rivet gun is pretty good against IG heavy weapon teams. Wounds on 2's, straight through their save and flat 2 damage kills a base per shot. Those things aren't points expensive generally speaking but the rule of three hard capped how many your opponent could bring so it's still a decent target if the rest of the IG stuff is T8 or just plain chaff

tneva82 wrote:


Do the shining spear have some way to fall back and charge? Fly only allows shooting

Lol are you serious?! I’ve been playing this wrong, with quite a few people, for this long?!?

Yeah, the only way you can fall back and charge is if there's a specific ability that allows it.

Ask your opponent what his Craftworld Trait is and if you can see the Shining Spear datasheet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Smasha guns also have that weird wounding thing where you have to exceed the targets toughness.
If I calculated it right, you have a 41% chance of wounding T8 and a 58% chance of wounding T7.

The KMK has a 50% chance of wounding T8 and a 66% chance of wounding T7.

You're right, I brainfarted for a moment and thought T7 was as high as it goes.

However, I believe that the extra 0.5 shots on average from 2 Smasha guns narrows the gap enough that with their extra point of AP it translates into more wounds even vs T7 or T8, as long as the target has a 3+ or better save and no invulnerable.

T8
KMK 3.5 shots * 1/2 to wound = 1.75 damage rolls
KMK 3.5 shots * 1/2 to wound * 5/6 to bypass 3+ save = 1.46 damage rolls
2 Smasha guns 4 shots * 0.41 to wound = 1.64 damage rolls

T7
KMK 3.5 * 2/3 = 2.33
KMK 3.5 * 2/3 * 5/6 to bypass 3+ save = 1.94
2 Smasha 4 * 0.58 = 2.32

So against T7 it's already a wash even before accounting for saves, against T8 it's a difference of 1/10th of a damage roll before saves. And considering two guns are much harder to shut down than one, I would say the KMK is still the wrong choice every time.

Well, 2 Smasha Guns are a little bit more than KMK, so I would imagine they can perform a little better.

Perhaps a good all comers ratio for a full Mek Gun battery would be 1 KMK + 3 Smasha + 2 Traktor.
2 Traktors have a good chance of 1 shotting or crippling most flyers
3 smashas can lay down some heavy anti-infantry fire and cripple light vehicles
The KMK is for whatever the Smashas are having trouble with. I would fire it last to try to finish off anything the smasha's couldn't kill.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


Do the shining spear have some way to fall back and charge? Fly only allows shooting

Lol are you serious?! I’ve been playing this wrong, with quite a few people, for this long?!?

Yep there are ways to get it but ffr example i face mostly alaitoc for -1 to hit so those won#t be falling back and charging.

Could be strategem as well. Never been subject to fall back and charge spears so not sure what options they have. But just flying isn#t enough

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Perhaps a good all comers ratio for a full Mek Gun battery would be 1 KMK + 3 Smasha + 2 Traktor.
2 Traktors have a good chance of 1 shotting or crippling most flyers
3 smashas can lay down some heavy anti-infantry fire and cripple light vehicles
The KMK is for whatever the Smashas are having trouble with. I would fire it last to try to finish off anything the smasha's couldn't kill.

Statistically a Traktor kannon wounds on 3s against most flyers, so you have a 2/3rd chance to wound with each one, so the likelihood is less then 50% that both will wound. But if they do they do 3.5 damage on average so 7 damage, that will definitely hurt but it won't kill most flyers.

gungo wrote:

I think another star unit people need to look at are evil sun burna kommandos.

They have been upgraded with the codex.
Evilsun kommandos can finally reliably make a charge.
Still have decent saves (with cover).
But can still have 2 burnas for free (index) and now Tankbusta Bombs which pair well with burna range.
And still use that kommando BC nob you got from forgeworld upgrade set (index).
With the price increase on boyz kommandos are a no brainer to help supplement that turn 2 beta strike.

I am still wondering why people think Burna's are worth a damn? statistically they are about as good as a similar amount of points of choppa boyz in CC (at least before the nerf) Not saying Kommandos aren't worth taking, just that the Burna isn't anything special. 2 attacks hitting on 3s, wounding on 4s with -2 AP is not bad but 3 attacks hitting on 3s wounding on 4s with no AP is almost as good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
to put a finer point on the Burna question. They exemplify my opinion of what GW did with the Ork codex this edition. Nerf our good units (boyz) and then make our crap unit (burnas) slightly less crap so that they are almost as good as the nerfed unit. I consider this a net loss, especially since Burna's didn't even get a damage increase. So now instead of costing 140pts for a useless unit, its 120pts. Whoopee

I'm not an ork player. but I have always loved tank boyz, many mek gunz, lootaz, kommandos and a lot of gretchins. I don't own 1 normal orc boy etc These are the only unit I own (just cause liked the models). With some trucks and some characters I think viable army now.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Smasha guns also have that weird wounding thing where you have to exceed the targets toughness.
If I calculated it right, you have a 41% chance of wounding T8 and a 58% chance of wounding T7.

The KMK has a 50% chance of wounding T8 and a 66% chance of wounding T7.

You're right, I brainfarted for a moment and thought T7 was as high as it goes.

However, I believe that the extra 0.5 shots on average from 2 Smasha guns narrows the gap enough that with their extra point of AP it translates into more wounds even vs T7 or T8, as long as the target has a 3+ or better save and no invulnerable.

T8
KMK 3.5 shots * 1/2 to wound = 1.75 damage rolls
KMK 3.5 shots * 1/2 to wound * 5/6 to bypass 3+ save = 1.46 damage rolls
2 Smasha guns 4 shots * 0.41 to wound = 1.64 damage rolls

T7
KMK 3.5 * 2/3 = 2.33
KMK 3.5 * 2/3 * 5/6 to bypass 3+ save = 1.94
2 Smasha 4 * 0.58 = 2.32

So against T7 it's already a wash even before accounting for saves, against T8 it's a difference of 1/10th of a damage roll before saves. And considering two guns are much harder to shut down than one, I would say the KMK is still the wrong choice every time.

Math is correct but remember that Smasha Gunz have random Strength. Which means you may roll very poorly and have results that are way under the average. Average kicks in only with tons of dice, not with just a couple of Mek Gunz on the table.

20 Smasha Gunz are better than 10 KMKs, but with 4-6 of them I'm not sure if they're more reliable than 2-3 KMKs.

I'm only talking about how much damage they may cause, I'd take Smasha Gunz anyway because for the same cost of KMKs they have twice the wounds and IMHO durability is more useful than killyness with the new orks. .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:

to put a finer point on the Burna question. They exemplify my opinion of what GW did with the Ork codex this edition. Nerf our good units (boyz) and then make our crap unit (burnas) slightly less crap so that they are almost as good as the nerfed unit. I consider this a net loss, especially since Burna's didn't even get a damage increase. So now instead of costing 140pts for a useless unit, its 120pts. Whoopee

Burnas simply need to have D6 autohits like any other proper flamer, period. With just D3 hits at 12ppm burnaboyz are not efficient as horde, which should be their role. Troops do it better, with also the advantage to fill troop slots.

 Blackie wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Smasha guns also have that weird wounding thing where you have to exceed the targets toughness.
If I calculated it right, you have a 41% chance of wounding T8 and a 58% chance of wounding T7.

The KMK has a 50% chance of wounding T8 and a 66% chance of wounding T7.

You're right, I brainfarted for a moment and thought T7 was as high as it goes.

However, I believe that the extra 0.5 shots on average from 2 Smasha guns narrows the gap enough that with their extra point of AP it translates into more wounds even vs T7 or T8, as long as the target has a 3+ or better save and no invulnerable.

T8
KMK 3.5 shots * 1/2 to wound = 1.75 damage rolls
KMK 3.5 shots * 1/2 to wound * 5/6 to bypass 3+ save = 1.46 damage rolls
2 Smasha guns 4 shots * 0.41 to wound = 1.64 damage rolls

T7
KMK 3.5 * 2/3 = 2.33
KMK 3.5 * 2/3 * 5/6 to bypass 3+ save = 1.94
2 Smasha 4 * 0.58 = 2.32

So against T7 it's already a wash even before accounting for saves, against T8 it's a difference of 1/10th of a damage roll before saves. And considering two guns are much harder to shut down than one, I would say the KMK is still the wrong choice every time.

Math is correct but remember that Smasha Gunz have random Strength. Which means you may roll very poorly and have results that are way under the average. Average kicks in only with tons of dice, not with just a couple of Mek Gunz on the table.

20 Smasha Gunz are better than 10 KMKs, but with 4-6 of them I'm not sure if they're more reliable than 2-3 KMKs.

I'm only talking about how much damage they may cause, I'd take Smasha Gunz anyway because for the same cost of KMKs they have twice the wounds and IMHO durability is more useful than killyness with the new orks. .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:

to put a finer point on the Burna question. They exemplify my opinion of what GW did with the Ork codex this edition. Nerf our good units (boyz) and then make our crap unit (burnas) slightly less crap so that they are almost as good as the nerfed unit. I consider this a net loss, especially since Burna's didn't even get a damage increase. So now instead of costing 140pts for a useless unit, its 120pts. Whoopee

Burnas simply need to have D6 autohits like any other proper flamer, period. With just D3 hits at 12ppm burnaboyz are not efficient as horde, which should be their role. Troops do it better, with also the advantage to fill troop slots.

Smasha guns don#t have random s. If they did you would roll 2 times but you only roll once. What they do have is own to wound rules which changes odds depending on target T.

tbh im surprised the buggies dont have "fly" when it comes to charges since atleast 3 of them feel designed to charge, but not stay in melee.
Obviously they wouldnt actually have fly but something like "Driveby Taktics" or so where they can fall back and still shoot. KBB is probably the weakest at actually melee'ing but it has that ram and is still 4 S5 attacks hitting on 4s, which isnt bad at all but not really great either. I really wish i could fall back with it and shoot, but i play Bad Moonz (hence why i probably felt like he was wasted since the bulk of his power is autohit). What was it, Bloodaxes can fall back and shoot universally? Probably not worth it lol

First buggy i painted was the deffkilla and yeah no surprise how great he was lol.

Agree on KBB. It would actually benefit from the shock jump dragsta's melee weapon. I was very confused when I saw it had the MW ram, but no CC weapon. Yet the shock dragsta (which you never want in combat), does have a CC weapon. Bit confusing there.

So far the shokk dragsta has been an unbelievable performer in all my games (that and the smasha guns), while the trike boss and KBB have been pretty medicore. The trike boss is a far third behind zhardsnark and the index bike boss with killa klaw. Really just take him if you need the advance aura, but you can get stuff into CC without him pretty easily now.

I haven't tried the rokkit buggy yet, but it looks pretty solid as an all around threat platform. (still slightly points expensive, but hey, all the buggies are).

I'm currently working on a master smorgsmaboard list that looks something like this.



Alt list drops trukk boyz, one unit of grots, and tankbustas for 27 boyz + nob. (to da jump)

 greggles wrote:
Agree on KBB. It would actually benefit from the shock jump dragsta's melee weapon. I was very confused when I saw it had the MW ram, but no CC weapon. Yet the shock dragsta (which you never want in combat), does have a CC weapon. Bit confusing there.

So far the shokk dragsta has been an unbelievable performer in all my games (that and the smasha guns), while the trike boss and KBB have been pretty medicore. The trike boss is a far third behind zhardsnark and the index bike boss with killa klaw. Really just take him if you need the advance aura, but you can get stuff into CC without him pretty easily now.

I haven't tried the rokkit buggy yet, but it looks pretty solid as an all around threat platform. (still slightly points expensive, but hey, all the buggies are).

I'm currently working on a master smorgsmaboard list that looks something like this.

Spoiler:

Alt list drops trukk boyz, one unit of grots, and tankbustas for 27 boyz + nob. (to da jump)

I like that list, the dual KMB big mek is pretty badass, especially as deathskulls. Why put a killkannon on the bonebreaka though? Since I play Evil Sunz I've put 4x big shootas on it and that has worked out okay, your list also seems surprisingly light on anti horde (something I imagine a lot of Ork lists might become post codex, including mine)

Also, small note.. Why is it written as a Megatrukk skrapjet? I've seen this in several places,the name in the codex is Megatrakk

Hey Pina,
It is just a list from Battlescribe. Probably a bug. Agree on the lesser horde. I guess I put a kill kannon on the bone breaka so it would have something to fire off. Trying to make sure everything has a gun, so can utilize the death skulls rerolls..

I do think I'm going to drop the tankbusta unit, trukk, and one grot unit and swap for 28 boyz (with nob) to use as anti chaff, da jump distraction. I think I have enough anti tank across the board and agree with your comments.

I could also drop the 10 nobz for 4 mega nobz, don't know if that is worth the swap would mean less models to paint).

Thanks for your comments, appreciate the feedback.

I know some people are recommending max units of warbikers, because the -1 to hit and/or other strats are pretty decent on them then but I personally have found a decent amount of success with 3man bike squads. Either super cheap, with dual choppas on the nob or with a bit of extra punch with the other CC weapons.

Since you have an Index warboss on bike in the list they would still be able to advance and charge, right? So I'd maybe try and sprinkle in some bikes as I've found them to be excellent chaff clearers and harassers. Obviously they still die pretty quick but they bring a lot of utility

hmm, so I played 3 games in a friendly tournament at my local today, playing my first games with the new codex...my list probably wasn't particularly competitive, as it was basically what I had ready that passed for deathskulls...


Game 1 of 3: vs tyranids


Game 2: vs custodes/knight


Game 3: vs world eaters


so, I went 1-2 overall...and the 1 was against a noob, but...I did kill a knight in the first turn?...gotta say though, dakkadakkadakka, and the deathskulls reroll 1 hit/wound/damage per unit whenever it shoots/fights...they are bloody nice, got me a definitely noticeable amount of hits/wounds that I otherwise wouldn't...I've definitely gotta get a lot more games in though, try out some different stuff, and get less rusty at playing in general...but yeah, playing orks now definitely feels better than playing with the index, definitely

Nice tip! Thanks. Will work on the list some more.

tneva82 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


Do the shining spear have some way to fall back and charge? Fly only allows shooting

Lol are you serious?! I’ve been playing this wrong, with quite a few people, for this long?!?

Yep there are ways to get it but ffr example i face mostly alaitoc for -1 to hit so those won#t be falling back and charging.

Could be strategem as well. Never been subject to fall back and charge spears so not sure what options they have. But just flying isn#t enough

It's a stratagem called Feigned Retreat, for 2 CP they can retreat and shoot/charge. That said, charging spears is not a bad idea, they wound on 6+ if they don't charge and Aeldar don't swim in CP.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
In my opinion, the KBB's job is to clear screens. With the charge, it's supposed to finish of tau warriors, guardsmen or scouts that have been hit by the rivet gun and the skorcha exhausts before.

Also to force units to fall back, bonking things like razorbacks, basilisks or shining spears simply shuts them off for a turn, no matter how much you kill.

I’m not sure I agree 100% on this. Surely the rivet gun is wasted on screens?

Eh, what else are you going to shoot with it? Just because it's D2 doesn't make it great at killing vehicles (wound on 4+, 5+ armor), especially not those from armies that can screen well. I'd much rather make sure that the things that actually hurt vehicles can get their charges off. Of course, if you can get in range of some helblasters...
In general, S6/7 AP-2 and D2 is awesome at clearing screens since it wounds most screens on 2+, ignores their armor and makes any FNP they might have useless.
Of course, you use warbikers for this task, who might actually be the better choice.

Also Shining Speara don’t care about falling back. They’ll fly right back into you after shooting you to bits to finish you off in combat.

That's a stratagem which costs 2 CP though, they will not be able to do that indefinitely and not on multiple units. You can probably even make them eat burna overwatch by forcing them to re-charge from within 8". It's also not like they don't shoot and charge you if you don't get into combat with them.

Burna exhausts are definitely for screens though but I wonder if they’re supposed to be more of a charge deterrent than a real damage dealing thing? To put off those 10 guardsmen who want to shut your shooting down by bonking you with their lasguns. The rivet cannon is going into heavier infantry and light vehicles for me.

I don't think the rivet gun is powerful enough for someone to bother shutting it down. It's still hitting on 5's. When you drive into 6" range, you can do the 4d3 burna hits, shoot the grot blasta and throw a stikkbomb and then charge to finish of the one or two guardsmen/fire warriors/guardians that managed to survive. Also note that the MW from the spiked ram are resolved before other nearby units do their charges.

Of course, by the same logic, nothing prevents you from just shooting the rivet gun at more juicy targets than the screen you are trying to clear.

SemperMortis wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Perhaps a good all comers ratio for a full Mek Gun battery would be 1 KMK + 3 Smasha + 2 Traktor.
2 Traktors have a good chance of 1 shotting or crippling most flyers
3 smashas can lay down some heavy anti-infantry fire and cripple light vehicles
The KMK is for whatever the Smashas are having trouble with. I would fire it last to try to finish off anything the smasha's couldn't kill.

Statistically a Traktor kannon wounds on 3s against most flyers, so you have a 2/3rd chance to wound with each one, so the likelihood is less then 50% that both will wound. But if they do they do 3.5 damage on average so 7 damage, that will definitely hurt but it won't kill most flyers.

gungo wrote:

I think another star unit people need to look at are evil sun burna kommandos.

They have been upgraded with the codex.
Evilsun kommandos can finally reliably make a charge.
Still have decent saves (with cover).
But can still have 2 burnas for free (index) and now Tankbusta Bombs which pair well with burna range.
And still use that kommando BC nob you got from forgeworld upgrade set (index).
With the price increase on boyz kommandos are a no brainer to help supplement that turn 2 beta strike.

I am still wondering why people think Burna's are worth a damn? statistically they are about as good as a similar amount of points of choppa boyz in CC (at least before the nerf) Not saying Kommandos aren't worth taking, just that the Burna isn't anything special. 2 attacks hitting on 3s, wounding on 4s with -2 AP is not bad but 3 attacks hitting on 3s wounding on 4s with no AP is almost as good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
to put a finer point on the Burna question. They exemplify my opinion of what GW did with the Ork codex this edition. Nerf our good units (boyz) and then make our crap unit (burnas) slightly less crap so that they are almost as good as the nerfed unit. I consider this a net loss, especially since Burna's didn't even get a damage increase. So now instead of costing 140pts for a useless unit, its 120pts. Whoopee

Even as you say burnas are just as good as choppas as boyz which isn’t correct. They are substantially better in overwatch and NOW are more efficient becuase they pair well with tankbusta bomb range. You still come out ahead on kommandos which only cost 8ppm and burnas are free. For 1ppm over a boy they are a freakin deal.
Once you add in the fact they deepstrike +9in away, they gain +1 to wound rolls in melee, auto hit at range, and gain+2 to cover saves...but honestly I’m using burnas on my kommandos becuase I want to back up my beta strike with cheap deepstriking units that have even more -2+ap attacks. The actual burna firing range and overwatch protection are a bonus.

gungo wrote:


Even as you say burnas are just as good as choppas as boyz which isn’t correct. They are substantially better in overwatch and NOW are more efficient becuase they pair well with tankbusta bomb range. You still come out ahead on kommandos which only cost 8ppm and burnas are free. For 1ppm over a boy they are a freakin deal.

Burna's on Kommandos are ok, ive used them extensively in my games and the best I can say about them is that they are worth the price....since they are free. If you made them pay for those Burna's...yeah no.

The problem I have with them on Kommandos is my Kommandos are turn 2 charging so they don't even get to shoot in the shooting phase for the first 2-3 turns because they are either out of range or tied up in CC. In CC a Burna Kommando gets 2 attacks for 1.3 hits and .67 wounds which the average Marine still gets a 5+ save on so .44 Dead Marines, the average Kommando gets 3 attacks for 2 hits, 1 wound and .33 Dead Marines. So yeah I said Choppa kommandos were almost as good and I said that "PRE NERF" Burna boyz were about as good as a similar amount of Choppa Boyz. So even after the nerf you can have 3 Burna boyz for 36pts and 5 Choppa Boyz for 35pts. 5 choppa boyz get 15 attacks, 10 hits, 5 wounds and 1.66 dead Marines, 3 Burna boyz get 6 attacks, 4 hits, 2 wounds and 1.33 dead Marines. Pre nerf it was 3 Burna boyz vs 7 Choppa Boyz and the math was even more lopsided in favor of choppa boyz.

I do agree that they are good for overwatch, I just haven't had a chance to use them in that context because nobody wants to charge me and get stuck in with my entire army breathing down their necks turn 2-3. YMMV but I take them ONLY on my kommandos because they are free.

SemperMortis wrote:

gungo wrote:


Even as you say burnas are just as good as choppas as boyz which isn’t correct. They are substantially better in overwatch and NOW are more efficient becuase they pair well with tankbusta bomb range. You still come out ahead on kommandos which only cost 8ppm and burnas are free. For 1ppm over a boy they are a freakin deal.

Burna's on Kommandos are ok, ive used them extensively in my games and the best I can say about them is that they are worth the price....since they are free. If you made them pay for those Burna's...yeah no.

The problem I have with them on Kommandos is my Kommandos are turn 2 charging so they don't even get to shoot in the shooting phase for the first 2-3 turns because they are either out of range or tied up in CC. In CC a Burna Kommando gets 2 attacks for 1.3 hits and .67 wounds which the average Marine still gets a 5+ save on so .44 Dead Marines, the average Kommando gets 3 attacks for 2 hits, 1 wound and .33 Dead Marines. So yeah I said Choppa kommandos were almost as good and I said that "PRE NERF" Burna boyz were about as good as a similar amount of Choppa Boyz. So even after the nerf you can have 3 Burna boyz for 36pts and 5 Choppa Boyz for 35pts. 5 choppa boyz get 15 attacks, 10 hits, 5 wounds and 1.66 dead Marines, 3 Burna boyz get 6 attacks, 4 hits, 2 wounds and 1.33 dead Marines. Pre nerf it was 3 Burna boyz vs 7 Choppa Boyz and the math was even more lopsided in favor of choppa boyz.

I do agree that they are good for overwatch, I just haven't had a chance to use them in that context because nobody wants to charge me and get stuck in with my entire army breathing down their necks turn 2-3. YMMV but I take them ONLY on my kommandos because they are free.

First off last edition you were a turn 2-3 charge that wasn’t very reliable after the codex as evil suns you have a very good chance to make it the turn 2 charge immediately after you drop.
Secondly don’t throw numbers and try to skew the values by not being fair (kommandos get +1 wound in melee on terrain) Kommandos are 8ppm boyz are 7ppm. You can get 5 kommandos (3 choppas and 2 burnas) for 40pts and 5 boys for 35pts. You will kill 1.66 marines with 5 boys and 1.88 marines (even without the +1 wound it’s still better) however with the +1 wound you killl 2.52 marines. That’s nearly double the value on marines not including the free deepstrike or plus cover save. This is without command points or psychic powers to make them work.

But the real question is why did I put kommandos w burnas in my list not only are they a great value. They are one of the few units able to charge and flush out squads in ruins that bikes, dreads, etc can’t charge.. dropping 2 MSU kommando units (maybe I combine squad them to they survive overwatch) I’m able to charge scouts/devastators or whatever in ruins and clear them out. That’s why I use kommandos because point for point they are still better then boyz.

How are people feeling about the trike? People who have used it in game? I've picked one up due to the hype, but honestly wondering whether to drop it now.

mrtomski wrote:
How are people feeling about the trike? People who have used it in game? I've picked one up due to the hype, but honestly wondering whether to drop it now.

I was on the fence about it due to it not having customizable weapon options. God knows why they did it this way. If it was just a boss on a bike im sure everyone would have been happier.

Im warming up to it now as a potentail smshboss platform. With dethskulls, the brutal warlord trait, and fists of gork it is pretty beast.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
In my opinion, the KBB's job is to clear screens. With the charge, it's supposed to finish of tau warriors, guardsmen or scouts that have been hit by the rivet gun and the skorcha exhausts before.

Also to force units to fall back, bonking things like razorbacks, basilisks or shining spears simply shuts them off for a turn, no matter how much you kill.

I’m not sure I agree 100% on this. Surely the rivet gun is wasted on screens?

Also Shining Speara don’t care about falling back. They’ll fly right back into you after shooting you to bits to finish you off in combat.

Burna exhausts are definitely for screens though but I wonder if they’re supposed to be more of a charge deterrent than a real damage dealing thing? To put off those 10 guardsmen who want to shut your shooting down by bonking you with their lasguns. The rivet cannon is going into heavier infantry and light vehicles for me.

Yeah, Rivet Kannon is S7 AP-2 D2 so it's a TEQ/Primaris/light vehicle hunter. Burna is anti-GEQ and it'll even bring some pain to MEQ. Also, the thing is pretty fast so it's entirely possible to get into flamer range for some roasting in the shooting phase. You can even burn a CP on the Evil Sunz stratagem to GTFO again if need be.

 Dr.Duck wrote:

mrtomski wrote:
How are people feeling about the trike? People who have used it in game? I've picked one up due to the hype, but honestly wondering whether to drop it now.

I was on the fence about it due to it not having customizable weapon options. God knows why they did it this way. If it was just a boss on a bike im sure everyone would have been happier.

Im warming up to it now as a potentail smshboss platform. With dethskulls, the brutal warlord trait, and fists of gork it is pretty beast.

Why deth skulls? If he has brutal but kunning he already reroll" hits and wounds.

The terrain bonus is hit or miss because I have yet to be able to use it in that context. I don't know how often it can be used because the units I want to flush out of cover are usually being protected by a screening unit which defeats the entire purpose. But you are right that does factor in. But I am not disagreeing with you. I take Kommandos MSU because you just can't beat the value of 40pts for 5 models with deep strike and 2 free burnas and a free Nob upgrade

By turn 2 I’ve already cleared or engaged screens.
Turn 1 warpath and da jump 35boyz engage and clear the screen..
Bike star takes out biggest target...
Turn 2
War path da jump 25more boyz clear our whatever screen still survives
Teleport 2x klaw dreads and 2x MSU kommandos
Klaw dreads take out another tough target (hopefully backed up by the meka dread)
Kommandos take out ruin campers because that what they excel at....
I don’t know about you but ruin campers (dev squads, scouts, snipers) are really popular and competitive since you can’t engage them with most monstrous creatures or vehicles...

Has anyone run a Bad Moons Warboss with the 4++? How did it work out, was it worth it?

Just finished my first game with the new dex. It was only 1k points. I was evil sunz. I Lost a minor victory on the relic mission. I had a 9 wound gork left and he had a 4 wound flyrant.

I had a smasha gun that was rolling poorly. I had more 1s for my shots roll and not 1 single to wound roll was made. Rolling that 7+ is harder than it is mathhammered. My bun bonebreaka dod jack squat. 4 wounds to a carnifex. Most of my points were made back from the gorkanaut tellyportaing in. Still failed two charges this game. He killed a stonecrusher carnifex, a regular one. Wiped a unit of gaunts and a unit of genestealers. Did a couple more wounds to the flyrant.

My deffkilla was alright. Burned the majority of the 2nd genestealer unit and almost solod a carnifex, before dying.

Weirdboy didnt do hardly anything.

I think as excited to see how well the gork did even tho some of my opponents rolls failed miserably allowing him to survive. Kinda balanced out my tereible rolls. I think for part of the ork strategy discussions we need to math hammer the unit options for what happens when dice rolls are average, or below.

I think the traktor kannon would have served me better.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, the only way you can fall back and charge is if there's a specific ability that allows it.

tneva82 wrote:

Yep there are ways to get it but ffr example i face mostly alaitoc for -1 to hit so those won#t be falling back and charging.

Could be strategem as well. Never been subject to fall back and charge spears so not sure what options they have. But just flying isn#t enough

Lol I thought it cost them nothing. That flying units could fall back and charge at no expense. Poor rule reading on my part.

Jidmah 766225 10225162
41c86c07f1ce6ec02d07db77ab9ac1d0.png wrote:
Eh, what else are you going to shoot with it? Just because it's D2 doesn't make it great at killing vehicles (wound on 4+, 5+ armor), especially not those from armies that can screen well. I'd much rather make sure that the things that actually hurt vehicles can get their charges off. Of course, if you can get in range of some helblasters...
In general, S6/7 AP-2 and D2 is awesome at clearing screens since it wounds most screens on 2+, ignores their armor and makes any FNP they might have useless.
Of course, you use warbikers for this task, who might actually be the better choice.

Exactly dude. I got a screen clearing unit in 12 bikes. I need AA though. Rivet cannon is weak but AA for me?

That's a stratagem which costs 2 CP though, they will not be able to do that indefinitely and not on multiple units. You can probably even make them eat burna overwatch by forcing them to re-charge from within 8". It's also not like they don't shoot and charge you if you don't get into combat with them.

See my incorrect reading of fly rule above.

I don't think the rivet gun is powerful enough for someone to bother shutting it down. It's still hitting on 5's. When you drive into 6" range, you can do the 4d3 burna hits, shoot the grot blasta and throw a stikkbomb and then charge to finish of the one or two guardsmen/fire warriors/guardians that managed to survive. Also note that the MW from the spiked ram are resolved before other nearby units do their charges.

True but not really what I'm looking for in my list.

Of course, by the same logic, nothing prevents you from just shooting the rivet gun at more juicy targets than the screen you are trying to clear.

True and what I'm thinking.

tneva82 wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:

mrtomski wrote:
How are people feeling about the trike? People who have used it in game? I've picked one up due to the hype, but honestly wondering whether to drop it now.

I was on the fence about it due to it not having customizable weapon options. God knows why they did it this way. If it was just a boss on a bike im sure everyone would have been happier.

Im warming up to it now as a potentail smshboss platform. With dethskulls, the brutal warlord trait, and fists of gork it is pretty beast.

Why deth skulls? If he has brutal but kunning he already reroll" hits and wounds.

For PK users rerolling that one POS 1 that you roll when rolling for damage is pretty sweet. Other than that ya I guess hes already got rerolls to wound and hits.

Was just saying deffskullz due to my current list build, but rerolling dice for combat damage and those two melta shots I think is enough to merit.

Had a game today against Knights.
Lancer
Atrapos
Warden
Gallant
Helverin

I was running:


I'm batrepping this just to illustrate how easily Orks can deal with knights.


Deathskulls are so good against knights. As are Tankbustas. He was so salty that I was able to kill his lancer with 2 units of Tankbustas. (one unit shot twice). I had too many threats for him to deal with. He never even shot my lootas, which were ready with their grot shields. My Nobz never disembarked from the Gorkanaut. The Gorkanaut never charged. There was essentially no way he could win the game once I created my boy wall, and neutralized his knights for a turn. Honestly, I'm not even sure he had a chance before that. My list just had too many threats for him to deal with.

Yeah both my games with the new dex have ended by turn3 so kinda hard to judge anything. Funny part is i was doing more of a joke list....14 vehicles in a 2k list (3 dreads, 6 kanz, 1 mork, 1 deffkilla, 1 KBB, 1Scrapjet, and 1 Dragsta). By all rights that list should get mulched but Bad Moonz + DDD luck ftw.

Nothing more satisfying than having a Mork pump out enough damage to 1shot that new marine skimmer tank thing (keep forgetting what that is called). As in, IT oneshotted it on its own lol.

Im in love with KustomMega weapons now that theyre D6 damage and i can reroll 1s hehe

Pandabeer wrote:
Yeah, Rivet Kannon is S7 AP-2 D2 so it's a TEQ/Primaris/light vehicle hunter.

You might want to do the math on that bold statement.

To save you the trouble - it's not. Yes, killing a single high cost marine with the rivet kannon is awesome, but you are only wounding those things on threes and -2 AP means that they still get decent saves against it. It's a completely different league than overcharged plasma.

As I said, if you can plonk a helblaster, go for it, but you should definitely shoot a screening scout or guardsman over some intercessor sitting in a terrain piece. The screen being gone will do much more for to further your game plan than counting points killed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Jidmah 766225 10225162
41c86c07f1ce6ec02d07db77ab9ac1d0.png wrote:
Eh, what else are you going to shoot with it? Just because it's D2 doesn't make it great at killing vehicles (wound on 4+, 5+ armor), especially not those from armies that can screen well. I'd much rather make sure that the things that actually hurt vehicles can get their charges off. Of course, if you can get in range of some helblasters...
In general, S6/7 AP-2 and D2 is awesome at clearing screens since it wounds most screens on 2+, ignores their armor and makes any FNP they might have useless.
Of course, you use warbikers for this task, who might actually be the better choice.

Exactly dude. I got a screen clearing unit in 12 bikes. I need AA though. Rivet cannon is weak but AA for me?

Math-wise it's not an anti-tank gun unless you get really lucky. If you already have a model, I would use it as a wingman for your bikes, block charges and areas from enemy units and eat overwatch for them.

If you are looking for anti-tank buggies, scrapjet and shokkjump dagsta are the speed freaks you're looking for.

What's the ztate of new buggies? Are all of rhem overpriced? Can any of them be useful in a footslogging list? Are they good enough in a mech list over more wagons/trukks with orks?

mrtomski wrote:
How are people feeling about the trike? People who have used it in game? I've picked one up due to the hype, but honestly wondering whether to drop it now.

IMHO it's very overrated. 120 points and you don't have solid shooting while in combat it's significantly worse than a standard warboss. It's just mobile, that's its only quality, the only fast HQ included in the codex. It also needs the trait that gives it the warboss aura or you're forced to include a warboss. I prefer embarking footslogging warbosses in transports than taking the deffkilla wartrike. Maybe in a list with 3x bonebreakas and some of the new buggies, especially those ones that have come punch in combat, he would be a great HQ. But I've tried 3x bonebreakas without him and I didn't miss the wartrike.

As long as Biker Boss or Zhadsnark are allowed take one of those instead of the wartrike.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
What's the ztate of new buggies? Are all of rhem overpriced? Can any of them be useful in a footslogging list? Are they good enough in a mech list over more wagons/trukks with orks?

Yes they are a bit. However in a list with solid armored stuff, 2-3 of the best ones could do very well. Dragastas and Scrapjets only, the other ones are bland. They may be useful in a footslogging list but only if you field lots of them, 6+ at least, probably with also several mek gunz to attract heavy firepower. Otherwise they won't last a turn.

Jidmah 766225 10225162
41c86c07f1ce6ec02d07db77ab9ac1d0.png wrote:
Math-wise it's not an anti-tank gun unless you get really lucky. If you already have a model, I would use it as a wingman for your bikes, block charges and areas from enemy units and eat overwatch for them.

If you are looking for anti-tank buggies, scrapjet and shokkjump dagsta are the speed freaks you're looking for.

Yea I got 1 of each excluding the Squig buggy. He's just too bad to warrant in a game. At 140 pts he's encroaching on Deff Rola battlewagon cost which is insanity to me.

I'm just trying to find the right use for each Buggy. Scrap jet and Dragster are obviously our primary anti tank buggies. One is more maneuverable but less survivable and probably slightly less damaging than the other.

Trikeboss is buffing character with some limited Anti-tank potential if I'm willing to burn a trait on him. His role is to ensure T1 charge and start overwhelming the enemy with threats for me.

Snazzwagon is our dedicated Anti-horde/chaff/screen clearer. Might be some shenanigan uses for those Molotov's that I haven't thought of yet, like denying Rangers/Scouts cover save? He'll be moving up with bikes and boss turn one to help clear screen and he'll be getting as close as possible to the enemy to try and blow up in their face.

Then we have KBB who I think lacks focus. His Burna exhausts are great Anti-screen. His rivet cannon is too few shots for me to be decent anti screen and Str 7 -2 AP 2D is an odd profile. I see it as useful for light vehicles like bikes, vypers, DE vehicles, sentinels etc. I guess the forward units that act as preliminary screens but aren't infantry? The spiked ram is an odd choice too. Perhaps useful to finish chaff or try and put a dent in a vehicle you want to shut down.

In terms of general use in an army I think the buggies suit my relatively mechanised force. Overload the enemy with T5 and T6 threats early game so the effectiveness of their shooting is diminished. Initiate combat on your terms and the opponent will feel on the back foot from the get-go regardless of their performance.

You need to look at the whole package, you are too hung up on the one gun wounding vehicles on 3+. Let's do the math for guardsmen in cover:

KBB
Burna exhausts are 4d3 hits, wound 5.33, kills 2.66
Rivet gun is 2 hits, wounds 1.66, kills 1.38
Stikkbomb is 1.16 hits, wounds .58, kills .29
Grot blasta hits .5, wounds .33, kill .16
Ram is 1 additional casualty
Combat hit 2, wound 1.33, kill .88
Total: 6.37

Snazzwagon
Big shoota is 1.5 hits, wound 1, kills 0.5
Mek Speshul is 3 hits, wounds 2, kills 1.66
Burna bottles are 2.33 hits, wounds 1.55, kills 1.04
Grot blasta is hits .5, wounds .25, kill .13
Combat hit 2, wound 1.33, kill .88
Total: 4.11

As you can see, the rivet gun is better at clearing guardsmen in cover than those burna bottles are, and the mek speshul can't take on the burna exhausts. KBB is the buggy you want to have clearing screens.

Edit: Fixed combat performance for snazzwagon.

You also want to consider that it's pretty likely that you advanced the buggy T1 to be able to reach with those burna exhausts. So the stikkbomb and grot blastas aren't an option. No big deal really, but that would mean that the burna bottles or that grot blasta aren't options either..

The snazzwagon really should in my opinion be either;
4+ to hit with the mek speshul as well
12 shots with the mek speshul
The mek speshul being S6 or AP-3
15 points cheaper
Or the burna bottles being lobbed through something making them assault

By the way, we're assuming that the grot blasta being S4 on the KBB is a mistake right?


Edit: Also, Jidmah, why are the two buggies different in close combat? They should be the same, no?

oops, copy&past error. I gave the guardsmen 4+ armor against melee and then fixed it for one, but not the other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PiñaColada wrote:
By the way, we're assuming that the grot blasta being S4 on the KBB is a mistake right?

Probably, but until errata is here, I'll just play it as written.

I really want someone to tell me the Snazzwagon works, it looks so cool.

Is the -1 to be hit not worth anything? it seems like that favours its role as a shooter, for example; it doesn't feel as much need to charge into an opponent to gain immunity in its shooting phase, losing its shooting phase next turn. And it can stack with Billowing-Exhaust for -2 to hit.

Currently I'm not sold with the buggies, I just can't fit them into any list, they just seem a bit meh compared to having some stormboyz or bikers even, does anyone prefer them to the other fast-attack options?

Also on another topic, where does the big(little)-squiggoth, stand compared to the Gorkanaut? I'm thinking it might be good to deepstrike a squiggoth with nobz or mega-nobz

 CaffeineIsGood wrote:
I really want someone to tell me the Snazzwagon works, it looks so cool.

Is the -1 to be hit not worth anything? it seems like that favours its role as a shooter, for example; it doesn't feel as much need to charge into an opponent to gain immunity in its shooting phase, losing its shooting phase next turn. And it can stack with Billowing-Exhaust for -2 to hit.

Currently I'm not sold with the buggies, I just can't fit them into any list, they just seem a bit meh compared to having some stormboyz or bikers even, does anyone prefer them to the other fast-attack options?

Also on another topic, where does the big(little)-squiggoth, stand compared to the Gorkanaut? I'm thinking it might be good to deepstrike a squiggoth with nobz or mega-nobz

I don't think the snazzwagon is bad, it's just fixed between warbikers and dakkajets in role and both of those units do it better IMO. The -1 to hit is nice obviously, but stacking it with the stratagem has to be considered super niche since you don't do it when fired upon but rather in your movement phase. So unless a game winning move is tied to it surviving and taking an objective/linebreaker I doubt that you'll see much use of that stratagem on it.
The model is fantastic though, so I imagine quite a few of us bought one just for that.

The only real application I see is driving them into powerful opponents on purpose and then re-roll the dice to see if they blow up. Strictly better than squig mines, if anything. You could also try tri-pointing knights with them, as they are pain in the rear to get rid of with their -1 to hit.

A trukk with shoota boyz probably does everything the snazzwagon does better while providing CP.

 Jidmah wrote:
You need to look at the whole package, you are too hung up on the one gun wounding vehicles on 3+. Let's do the math for guardsmen in cover:

KBB
Burna exhausts are 4d3 hits, wound 5.33, kills 2.66
Rivet gun is 2 hits, wounds 1.66, kills 1.38
Stikkbomb is 1.16 hits, wounds .58, kills .29
Grot blasta hits .5, wounds .33, kill .16
Ram is 1 additional casualty
Combat hit 2, wound 1.33, kill .88
Total: 6.37

Snazzwagon
Big shoota is 1.5 hits, wound 1, kills 0.5
Mek Speshul is 3 hits, wounds 2, kills 1.66
Burna bottles are 2.33 hits, wounds 1.55, kills 1.04
Grot blasta is hits .5, wounds .25, kill .13
Combat hit 2, wound 1.33, kill .88
Total: 4.11

As you can see, the rivet gun is better at clearing guardsmen in cover than those burna bottles are, and the mek speshul can't take on the burna exhausts. KBB is the buggy you want to have clearing screens.

Edit: Fixed combat performance for snazzwagon.

There's a few other things to consider too.

If Guardsmen are in cover its unlikely you're making a charge into them at all. They'll hole up in buildings and take casualties from the GF as required.

The range of the Mek Speshul and Big Shootas far exceeds the Burna exhausts. So the Snazzwagon doesn't have to be in charge range to fire its anti infantry weapons and it can target a broader number of units. I don't like the idea of having to be within 8" to use my most potent horde clearing tool because without using Evil Sunz shenanigans I'm going to have to charge or I get charged. Then without wiping the unit that I'm engaged with I can't fire my weapons again and lose efficiency.

I think you guys misunderstand me. I know they aren't particularly competitive choices. But the models are gorgeous and I'm going to paint them beautifully. I know I'll be using all of them regardless of their credibility as a potent threat so I might as well figure out how to get the most out of them. Which is what I'm trying to do more than anything.

guardsmen? cover?
With how cover works in 8 how the gak does a unit with more than 10 bodies ever get cover?
which is part of the reason i think the snazz is overpriced, putting too much value in that ignore cover in a game where cover is either not a thing or its negated by high enough AP anyway.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
guardsmen? cover?
With how cover works in 8 how the gak does a unit with more than 10 bodies ever get cover?
which is part of the reason i think the snazz is overpriced, putting too much value in that ignore cover in a game where cover is either not a thing or its negated by high enough AP anyway.

The most common configuration of Guardsmen is 3 units of ten....

The only time they're not in cover is when they're being used as a screen which is pretty frequent too, to be fair.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
You need to look at the whole package, you are too hung up on the one gun wounding vehicles on 3+. Let's do the math for guardsmen in cover:

KBB
Burna exhausts are 4d3 hits, wound 5.33, kills 2.66
Rivet gun is 2 hits, wounds 1.66, kills 1.38
Stikkbomb is 1.16 hits, wounds .58, kills .29
Grot blasta hits .5, wounds .33, kill .16
Ram is 1 additional casualty
Combat hit 2, wound 1.33, kill .88
Total: 6.37

Snazzwagon
Big shoota is 1.5 hits, wound 1, kills 0.5
Mek Speshul is 3 hits, wounds 2, kills 1.66
Burna bottles are 2.33 hits, wounds 1.55, kills 1.04
Grot blasta is hits .5, wounds .25, kill .13
Combat hit 2, wound 1.33, kill .88
Total: 4.11

As you can see, the rivet gun is better at clearing guardsmen in cover than those burna bottles are, and the mek speshul can't take on the burna exhausts. KBB is the buggy you want to have clearing screens.

Edit: Fixed combat performance for snazzwagon.

There's a few other things to consider too.

If Guardsmen are in cover its unlikely you're making a charge into them at all. They'll hole up in buildings and take casualties from the GF as required.

The range of the Mek Speshul and Big Shootas far exceeds the Burna exhausts. So the Snazzwagon doesn't have to be in charge range to fire its anti infantry weapons and it can target a broader number of units. I don't like the idea of having to be within 8" to use my most potent horde clearing tool because without using Evil Sunz shenanigans I'm going to have to charge or I get charged. Then without wiping the unit that I'm engaged with I can't fire my weapons again and lose efficiency.

Look, if you want the awesome buggy with molotov-throwing orks to be awesome that's all great and good. But you are making up scenarios to give it some niche which it doesn't have. Both the KBB and the snazzwagon do the same job, with the snazzwagon simply being worse at it.

You also shouldn't keep it at a distance. At 24" it does two damage to T3/4+ models for 100 points - even the squig buggy (!) is way better at that range. Meanwhile throwing burna bottles and charging afterwards almost doubles its damage output to something at least half decent. Therefore you must get into that 6" grenade range to use them efficiently.

I think you guys misunderstand me. I know they aren't particularly competitive choices. But the models are gorgeous and I'm going to paint them beautifully. I know I'll be using all of them regardless of their credibility as a potent threat so I might as well figure out how to get the most out of them. Which is what I'm trying to do more than anything.

The way to use both the KBB and the snazzwagon is to drive up and kill as much light infantry as possible. When that's done, assault things that cannot fall back and shoot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
guardsmen? cover?
With how cover works in 8 how the gak does a unit with more than 10 bodies ever get cover?
which is part of the reason i think the snazz is overpriced, putting too much value in that ignore cover in a game where cover is either not a thing or its negated by high enough AP anyway.

I assumed cover to show that the KBB outperforms the Snazzwagon even when they get to use their cover-ignoring ability. Of course, outside of cover or when -1 to hit is involved, the KBB becomes even better.

Ehm, so maybe a dumb question but I never actually used our flyers so.. Can a burna-bommer drop bombs on a unit that is engaged in close combat? I'm guessing no, but might as well ask.

Also, if it flies off the board, does it explode on a 4+?

Help with deciding army clan!

I have about 5 units of 30 boyz, and one unit 30 gretchin. The rest of my collection are tons of Nobz, 2 Wyrdboys, 3 Warbosses (Plus Ghaz, Badrukk, and Grotsnik), Lootaz, and various trukks, buggies, koptaz, and a Battlewagon. At first I was gonna do a (somewhat) even split of Evil Suns and Death Skull, but I might just go all in on Death Skulls.

Obviously ES are the competitive choice, and i predict to be seeing alot of red Orkz at my LGS in the upcoming months. I myself, have always been partial to Death skulls, and have alot of looted trukks from cut open Rhinos and Goliaths.


Thoughts on where I should steer my collection? Is a Soup force better than a mono?

If the force is split, I would assume to tellyport/jump the Suns and just walk the Death Skulls.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Help with deciding army clan!

I have about 5 units of 30 boyz, and one unit 30 gretchin. The rest of my collection are tons of Nobz, 2 Wyrdboys, 3 Warbosses (Plus Ghaz, Badrukk, and Grotsnik), Lootaz, and various trukks, buggies, koptaz, and a Battlewagon. At first I was gonna do a (somewhat) even split of Evil Suns and Death Skull, but I might just go all in on Death Skulls.

Obviously ES are the competitive choice, and i predict to be seeing alot of red Orkz at my LGS in the upcoming months. I myself, have always been partial to Death skulls, and have alot of looted trukks from cut open Rhinos and Goliaths.


Thoughts on where I should steer my collection? Is a Soup force better than a mono?

If the force is split, I would assume to tellyport/jump the Suns and just walk the Death Skulls.

It\s soup edition so obviously soup is going to be better than mono. Or to put it this way: Do you want 100% shooting or 100% h2h? If not you benefit more from having shooty stuff on shooty clan(bad moon or death skull) and h2h stuff in h2h clan(evil sun).

Also you have way too many boyz for one clan. You shouldn't be fielding much more than 2-3 units anyway. More grots meanwhile will be useful. I'm struggling to come up with effective list that doesn't have AT LEAST 40, more often 60+ grots.

You will need also tank bustas and both tank bustas and lootas benefit a LOT from having bad moon clan...For death skulls you would be looking more like small units with low shot high S/AP/damage shots to exploit the 1 reroll for to hit, wound and damage.

Always wanted to do a defwing style lost back in the day

Is it a viable option now with this codex?

daismith906 wrote:
Always wanted to do a defwing style lost back in the day

Is it a viable option now with this codex?

Meganobz are one of our top units imo. Now you fo need a backip plan for situations whrn you don't make a charge. Like taking even more meganobz so that at least someone would be able to tie things up.

They do consume a ton of cp though.

I just noticed something, 4 klaw Deff Dreads are Index only now, correct? The best you can do with the codex is 2 Klaws and 2 Saws?

interesting note, yeah youre right BaconCatBug the Deffdread lets you replace the klaws but you cant replace the bigshootas with klaws.
Thats weird. Not that i'd bother, i like the 1klaw2saws idea

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I just noticed something, 4 klaw Deff Dreads are Index only now, correct? The best you can do with the codex is 2 Klaws and 2 Saws?

Correct.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
interesting note, yeah youre right BaconCatBug the Deffdread lets you replace the klaws but you cant replace the bigshootas with klaws.
Thats weird. Not that i'd bother, i like the 1klaw2saws idea

I personally was thinking maybe 1Klaw3Saw would work out well. Thats 3 Klaw Attacks and 3 Saw attacks. Telllyport it up turn 2 and Ramming Speed it into something and rip it a new one.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
interesting note, yeah youre right BaconCatBug the Deffdread lets you replace the klaws but you cant replace the bigshootas with klaws.
Thats weird. Not that i'd bother, i like the 1klaw2saws idea

I personally was thinking maybe 1Klaw3Saw would work out well. Thats 3 Klaw Attacks and 3 Saw attacks. Telllyport it up turn 2 and Ramming Speed it into something and rip it a new one.

Klaws are better than saws though. Think it's worth the extra 5 points to get an extra klaw attack unless you really need those 5 points to bring something else.

Also true. I mean in an Ideal world i'd stick to 4 klaws but I personally just suck it up and pretend the indexes don't exist.

I’m all about 1 klaw and 3 saws... the upgrade from saw to klaw isn’t that big of a jump for 1 atk for 5pts.

I have a hard enough time getting points to give nobs big choppas which is a bigger upgrade.

15% total price increase (100 for 1Klaw3Saw vs 115 for 4Klaw) for +1AP, and +1Damage (50% increase in both stats). I mean technically the Klaw is 50% more expensive as a weapon than the Saw, but when viewing the entire models final price..

I guess it comes down to what you're likely to be fighting - fighting vehicles, its probably worth it to upgrade; but against Terminators/other 2w models, you could keep the Saws.

fe40k wrote:
15% total price increase (100 for 1Klaw3Saw vs 115 for 4Klaw) for +1AP, and +1Damage (50% increase in both stats). I mean technically the Klaw is 50% more expensive as a weapon than the Saw, but when viewing the entire models final price..

I guess it comes down to what you're likely to be fighting - fighting vehicles, its probably worth it to upgrade; but against Terminators/other 2w models, you could keep the Saws.

What your writing is subjective I can say the same about upgrading a nob from nothing to a big choppa.
If the choice is between 1 atk gaining -1ap and +1dam to klaw upgrade or giving a nob a big choppa for 3 atks at -1ap, +1 dam and +2 str which is a better use of 5 pts? I’m not saying it’s a bad use of 5pts... but those 5pts have a lot of use for orks. As a practical example this is my list. Do I take away a big choppa to give a deffdread another klaw? (To be fair I actually might since although my dreads arms are magnetized I don’t think I have 6 saw arms.)

++ Brigade Detachment +12CP (Orks) [141 PL, 2000pts] ++

Clan Kultur: Evil Sunz

+ HQ +

Deffkilla Wartrike [6 PL, 120pts]: Brutal but Kunnin, Snagga Klaw,
Warlord-Brutal but Kunnin(reroll hit;+1 dam trait)

Warboss on Warbike (index) [5 PL, 91pts]: Big Choppa, Headwoppa's Killchoppa

Weirdboy [3 PL, 62pts]: 2. Warpath, 3. Da Jump, Warphead (1 CP)

Zhadsnark Da Ripper [7 PL, 120pts]
. Da Beast: 2x Big Shoota

+ Troops +

Boyz [11 PL, 175pts]: 2x Tankbusta Bombs
. Boss Nob: Choppa & Slugga
. 24x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa

Boyz [4 PL, 70pts]: 9x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa, Tankbusta Bombs
. Boss Nob: Choppa & Slugga

Boyz [11 PL, 180pts]: 2x Tankbusta Bombs
. Boss Nob: Big Choppa & Slugga
. 24x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa

Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts]: 10x Gretchin

Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts]: 10x Gretchin

Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts]: 10x Gretchin

+ Elites +

Kommandos [4 PL, 45pts]: Tankbusta Bombs
. 2x Kommando
. Kommando Nob W/ Big Choppa & Slugga
. Kommando W/ 'Eavy Weapon (Index): Burna
. Kommando W/ 'Eavy Weapon (Index): Burna

Kommandos [4 PL, 45pts]: Tankbusta Bombs
. 2x Kommando
. Kommando Nob W/ Big Choppa & Slugga
. Kommando W/ 'Eavy Weapon (Index): Burna
. Kommando W/ 'Eavy Weapon (Index): Burna

Painboy on Warbike (Index) [6 PL, 103pts]: Da Killa Klaw, Power Klaw

+ Fast Attack +

Megatrukk Scrapjet [16 PL, 110pts]
. Megatrukk Scrapjet: 2x Twin Big Shoota

Megatrukk Scrapjet [16 PL, 110pts]
. Megatrukk Scrapjet: 2x Twin Big Shoota

Megatrukk Scrapjet [16 PL, 110pts]
. Megatrukk Scrapjet: 2x Twin Big Shoota

+ Heavy Support +

Deff Dread [11 PL, 200pts]
. Deff Dread: Dread Klaw, Dread Saw, Dread Saw, Dread Saw
. Deff Dread: Dread Klaw, Dread Saw, Dread Saw, Dread Saw

Mek Gunz [6 PL, 93pts]
. Gun: Smasha Gun
. Gun: Smasha Gun
. Gun: Smasha Gun

Meka-Dread [12 PL, 276pts]: Kustom Force Field
. Rattler kannon+ Rippa Klaw

++ Total: [141 PL, 2000pts] ++

daismith906 wrote:
Always wanted to do a defwing style lost back in the day

Is it a viable option now with this codex?

Better than the Dark Angels codex.

Death Skulls can get objective secured meganobs.

Their biggest downside is their clownish slowness. Evil sunz make up for this by making deep striking them viable, as well as making them faster than terminators due to their +1 to run and +1 to charge.

So evil sunz makes arguably the best meganobz, but death skulls MANz have objective secured - eg you could make a true Deffwing list composed entirely of Mega Armor, provided a few grots to fill out mandatory troops choices.

How are Meganobz this time around?

fe40k wrote:
How are Meganobz this time around?

The points drop helped them out quite a bit, now you can strap some killsaws on them and you'll have a pretty scary melee unit provided you have a way to get them into combat.

Guys I need some input.
I'm Debating on who has the best Tankbustas?

- Snakebite with their +1 to Wound?

- Bad Moonz Shooting Twice?

- Death Skullz for Re-Roll To Wound, Objective Secured and Reroll 1 Dmg dice on a Bomb Squig/Tankbusta Bomb

 Javadog wrote:

fe40k wrote:
How are Meganobz this time around?

The points drop helped them out quite a bit, now you can strap some killsaws on them and you'll have a pretty scary melee unit provided you have a way to get them into combat.

Do you feel that +1A and +1AP is worth 7 points (~+23% increase)? You get a flat D2, instead of Dd3, which is a sidetrade depending how lucky you feel.

You also lost 4 KustomShoota shots per MegaNob; but given the targets you're hunting, that's really a wash.

Edit: My gut feeling is that BadMoonz is probably best for Tankbustas, just because of More Dakka+Shoot Twice; that said, re-rolling to wounds is real solid. I'll have to math it up in a little bit.

Vermine wrote:
Guys I need some input.
I'm Debating on who has the best Tankbustas?

- Snakebite with their +1 to Wound?

- Bad Moonz Shooting Twice?

- Death Skullz for Re-Roll To Wound, Objective Secured and Reroll 1 Dmg dice on a Bomb Squig/Tankbusta Bomb

Bad moons. 2xshots better than reroll wounds. Also reroll 1's if you need to shoot non vehicles.

I am sure this was discussed but I couldn't find it.

When using Unstoppable Green Tide on Skarboyz or Ardboyz, do they come back with their buffs? I know some armies (nids) only regen the base versions of their troops. Is that listed such in their rules?

 JimOnMars wrote:
I am sure this was discussed but I couldn't find it.

When using Unstoppable Green Tide on Skarboyz or Ardboyz, do they come back with their buffs? I know some armies (nids) only regen the base versions of their troops. Is that listed such in their rules?

We'll see in the FAQ - but, based on the wording on 1d4Chan; I'd say they're coming back with their buffs.
You're not creating a new unit, you're redeploying the same unit, and "healing" the dead models.
Of course, the proper way to play it is to use the interpretation that least benefits you; until we get a defined ruling - which is to say, they don't come back with buffs.

If the Tyranid version works differently, I'm leaning towards that's how they'll rule it...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tankbusta math:
vs T8, 3+

15 models
INITIAL
15*0.333 = 4.995 Initial hits
10.005*0.333 = 3.332 misses converted to hits
[4.995+3.332*0.5= 4.164 DDD attacks]
8.327*0.5 = 4.164 wounds
4.164*0.666 = 2.773 failed armor saves
2.773*3 = 8.319 INITIAL damage
DDD
4.164*0.333 = 1.387 hits
2.777*0.333 = 0.925 misses converted to hits
2.312*0.5 = 1.156 wounds
1.156*0.666 = 0.77 failed armor saves
0.77*3 = 2.31 DDD damage

= (8.319+2.31) = 10.629 average damage, INITIAL + DDD total

Deathskulls; 2cp - "Wreckers"
[[4.164*0.5 = 2.082 missed wounds converted to wounds; Deathskulls]]
[[2.082*0.666 = 1.387 extra failed armor saves; Deathskulls]]
[[1.387*3 = 4.161 extra damage; Deathskulls]]
[[1.156*0.5 = 0.587 missed wounds converted to wounds; DDD, Deathskulls]]
[[0.587*0.666 = 0.391 extra failed armor saves; DDD, Deathskulls]]
[[0.391*3 = 1.173 extra damage; DDD, Deathskulls]]
= (8.319+2.31)+(4.161+1.173) = 15.963 average damage ; "Wreckers" (2cp)
= (15.963)+(2.31+1.173) = 19.446 ; "Wreckers"+"More Dakka" (4cp)

Bad Moonz; 2cp - "Showin' Off"
x2 to INITIAL + DDD numbers
= (8.319+2.31)+(8.319+2.31) = 21.258 average damage ; "Showin' Off" (2cp)
= (21.258)+(2.31+2.31) = 25.878 average damage ; "Showin' Off"+"More Dakka" (4cp)

TLDR ; BadMoonz >> Deathskullz Tankbustas.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Is the “Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun” it’s own entry in the codex?
This means you could technically run 6 Big Meks with Shokk Attack Guns (3 codex entry, 3 index Big Mek (equipping SAG)?
Edit: It is - so, 6xSAG is possible. The real question is; is it good? Probably not - but it could be fun.
Edit2: 9 SAG is possible... 3 BigMek w/SAG (codex), 3 Big Mek (index), 3 Big Mek On Warbiker (index).

fe40k wrote:
Of course, the proper way to play it is to use the interpretation that least benefits you;

A true gentleman. I'll play you anytime.

fe40k wrote:

 Javadog wrote:

fe40k wrote:
How are Meganobz this time around?

The points drop helped them out quite a bit, now you can strap some killsaws on them and you'll have a pretty scary melee unit provided you have a way to get them into combat.

Do you feel that +1A and +1AP is worth 7 points (~+23% increase)? You get a flat D2, instead of Dd3, which is a sidetrade depending how lucky you feel.

You also lost 4 KustomShoota shots per MegaNob; but given the targets you're hunting, that's really a wash.

Edit: My gut feeling is that BadMoonz is probably best for Tankbustas, just because of More Dakka+Shoot Twice; that said, re-rolling to wounds is real solid. I'll have to math it up in a little bit.

I think it's worth it. Personally I like D2 better than Dd3 because when you're up against 2 wound models, it's nice to know that you can drop them with 1 failed save each instead of getting unlucky with a 1 and leaving them standing. I also don't mind the loss of shootas because I use them for the sole purpose of being a scary melee unit that ties things up until they die, they wouldn't get much out of their shooting anyway if I gave them the shootas. That's just my two cents of course, I'm not really a competitive 40k player.

As for tankbustas, there's more to it than just damage output with strategems.

Deffskullz are better when used in min squads. For example, when you need to fill up a new derachment and you're short on pts. Happens all the time. Besides, if you're a bomb squig fan,
Deffskull rerolling damage is huge for d6 damage squigs.

Deffskull and snakebite trukks are better than badmoon trukk.

Deffskull tankbustas are better when you're out of cp.

So, keep this in mind as it might outweigh the pure damage increase of shooting twice.

Outrider of Dragstas/Scrapjets - are they better as Deffskulls or Bad Moonz?

 koooaei wrote:
As for tankbustas, there's more to it than just damage output with strategems.

Deffskullz are better when used in min squads. For example, when you need to fill up a new derachment and you're short on pts. Happens all the time. Besides, if you're a bomb squig fan,
Deffskull rerolling damage is huge for d6 damage squigs.

Deffskull and snakebite trukks are better than badmoon trukk.

Deffskull tankbustas are better when you're out of cp.

So, keep this in mind as it might outweigh the pure damage increase of shooting twice.

You want to be filling up battallions which don't have elite as requirement. Indeed for orks the elite detachment is about least useful.

And for non-pure damage howabout ability to blow up 2 units rather than 1 with help of showoff? That's waaaay bigger than filling crappy vanquard detachment.

How good is a Shokk Attack gun? I hear they’re decent on a Deathskulls Big Mek? - I understand I’m reality they’re super random.

I just saw it was possible to take 9 (3 BMw/SAG (codex), BM (index), BMw/WARBIKE (index).

It’s total cheese (even moreso outside of a tournament setting), and not likely to be great - but, it begs the question; how many SAGs are fine to run, before you start handicapping yourself by taking them?

In reality, 0 is probably the right number.

karandrasss wrote:
Outrider of Dragstas/Scrapjets - are they better as Deffskulls or Bad Moonz?

Low number of high S/AP/dam shots=death skulls.

If you roll 6 dice you have good chance(but not even quaranteed) or one 1 for bad moon reroll. Death skull tops that. Lone dragsta/scrapjet is also not worth it for strategem so neither clans strategems are of concern. Ergo go for the one that's 1 QUARANTEED reroll to hit(so you are rerolling more often than say 6 shot bad moon...) and also rerolls to wound and damage rolls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

fe40k wrote:
How good is a Shokk Attack gun? I hear they’re decent on a Deathskulls Big Mek? - I understand I’m reality they’re super random.

I just saw it was possible to take 9 (3 BMw/SAG (codex), BM (index), BMw/WARBIKE (index).

It’s total cheese (moreso outside of a tournament setting), and not likely to be great - but, it begs the question; how many SAGs are fine to run, before you start handicapping yourself by taking them?

In reality, 0 is probably the right number.

If 0 is probably right number then how you call it cheese?-) Cheese=overbroken stuff. If it's cheese then 9 would be correct number.

Still confused about the Mek Gunz crew, who (codex p105) have no stats and cannot be targeted or attacked separately or used to measure from and so apparently have zero game effect - does this mean they're purely decorative and don't even need to be placed on the table? (OK, they're mildly useful as wound counters for the gunz' 6 wounds, but a dice could do that.)

Can any Rules Lawyers think of a case where the number of crew models could matter?

(Yes, I'm planning some gunz conversions and wondering how many crew I need to rustle up )

 Clang wrote:
Still confused about the Mek Gunz crew, who (codex p105) have no stats and cannot be targeted or attacked separately or used to measure from and so apparently have zero game effect - does this mean they're purely decorative and don't even need to be placed on the table? (OK, they're mildly useful as wound counters for the gunz' 6 wounds, but a dice could do that.)

Can any Rules Lawyers think of a case where the number of crew models could matter?

(Yes, I'm planning some gunz conversions and wondering how many crew I need to rustle up )

Looking at the datasheet, I don't see any difference between them and the techmarine for thunderfire or the crew for a rapier battery. That is to say, it appears they can be killed on their own and they need to be present for the mek gun to be fired.

 Clang wrote:
Still confused about the Mek Gunz crew, who (codex p105) have no stats and cannot be targeted or attacked separately or used to measure from and so apparently have zero game effect - does this mean they're purely decorative and don't even need to be placed on the table? (OK, they're mildly useful as wound counters for the gunz' 6 wounds, but a dice could do that.)

Can any Rules Lawyers think of a case where the number of crew models could matter?

(Yes, I'm planning some gunz conversions and wondering how many crew I need to rustle up )

They have exactly one purpose rulewise: Bulk up space the model take in total and silhouette. Gun+5 crew=more space taken than just gun. Which means easier to draw LOS to/from and harder to cram up lots of them in small area so leaving out will expose yourself to MFA accusations.


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 cole1114 wrote:

 Clang wrote:
Still confused about the Mek Gunz crew, who (codex p105) have no stats and cannot be targeted or attacked separately or used to measure from and so apparently have zero game effect - does this mean they're purely decorative and don't even need to be placed on the table? (OK, they're mildly useful as wound counters for the gunz' 6 wounds, but a dice could do that.)

Can any Rules Lawyers think of a case where the number of crew models could matter?

(Yes, I'm planning some gunz conversions and wondering how many crew I need to rustle up )

Looking at the datasheet, I don't see any difference between them and the techmarine for thunderfire or the crew for a rapier battery. That is to say, it appears they can be killed on their own and they need to be present for the mek gun to be fired.

How can they be killed? They aren't separate units. It's one model unit with 6 wounds. You don't remove any of them for each wound any more than you remove parts of rhino when rhino is wounded!

 cole1114 wrote:

 Clang wrote:
Still confused about the Mek Gunz crew, who (codex p105) have no stats and cannot be targeted or attacked separately or used to measure from and so apparently have zero game effect - does this mean they're purely decorative and don't even need to be placed on the table? (OK, they're mildly useful as wound counters for the gunz' 6 wounds, but a dice could do that.)

Can any Rules Lawyers think of a case where the number of crew models could matter?

(Yes, I'm planning some gunz conversions and wondering how many crew I need to rustle up )

Looking at the datasheet, I don't see any difference between them and the techmarine for thunderfire or the crew for a rapier battery. That is to say, it appears they can be killed on their own and they need to be present for the mek gun to be fired.

But how can they be killed separately if they don't have a stats line? Also, "Each Mek Gun and its grot krew are treated as a single model for all rules purposes."

MekGunz crew are there to take up space on the table.

There’s a YMDC thread discussing this - the rules allow you to cheese with placement (see thread); but, that’s taking the rules to the extreme.

They’re more than just eye candy, they’re 5 small bases that need to be accounted for when placing the model; especially when you deploy a battery of Mek Gunz near each other. 1MekGun+5GrotKrew function ENTIRELY as ONE model. For all purposes; moving, shooting, being assaulted, etc - hitting one model counts as hitting all of them.

Be careful when trying to move them; movement is real wonky, since the combined movement of the 6 bases can not exceed the MOV stat.

The FAQ should make the rules clearer all around.

fe40k wrote:
MekGunz crew are there to take up space on the table.

There’s a YMDC thread discussing this - the rules allow you to cheese with placement (see thread); but, that’s taking the rules to the extreme.

They’re more than just eye candy, they’re 5 small bases that need to be accounted for when placing the model; especially when you deploy a battery of Mek Gunz near each other. 1MekGun+5GrotKrew function ENTIRELY as ONE model. For all purposes; moving, shooting, being assaulted, etc - hitting one model counts as hitting all of them.

Be careful when trying to move them; movement is real wonky, since the combined movement of the 6 bases can not exceed the MOV stat.

The FAQ should make the rules clearer all around.

GW wording a rule badly? - surely not Found the YMDC thread, and yes, pedants can and have interpreted this rule half a dozen different ways :( I can see your interpretation re being attacked, perhaps, but the rule explicitly says the krew have no effect on shooting. RAW is ambiguous, and I honestly can't tell exactly what's RAI - yes, hopefully the FAQ will be a bit clearer...

The intent of the Grot crew is pretty clear RAI. I don't really give a Snotling's a** about however which way you can bend the rules when you start digging into it. If you are placing the Grots anywhere else than within 1" of the actual GUN model you're TFG.

I think rules wise they are a single model that happens to have gaps in it, and enemies can trace LOS and range to grots same as they can to a dozer blade or a wing. Sole exception is that you trace LOS from the physical Mek Gun when shooting it.

I updated my battlescribe recently and are my eyes deceiving me, or did they miss out Runtherds completely?

 Wunzlez wrote:
I updated my battlescribe recently and are my eyes deceiving me, or did they miss out Runtherds completely?

For me it's in no force org slot part. Dunno why.

tneva82 wrote:

 Wunzlez wrote:
I updated my battlescribe recently and are my eyes deceiving me, or did they miss out Runtherds completely?

For me it's in no force org slot part. Dunno why.

Probably because they don't take a force organization slot if your army includes Gretchin.

 koooaei wrote:
As for tankbustas, there's more to it than just damage output with strategems.

Deffskullz are better when used in min squads. For example, when you need to fill up a new derachment and you're short on pts. Happens all the time. Besides, if you're a bomb squig fan,
Deffskull rerolling damage is huge for d6 damage squigs.

Deffskull and snakebite trukks are better than badmoon trukk.

Deffskull tankbustas are better when you're out of cp.

So, keep this in mind as it might outweigh the pure damage increase of shooting twice.

Bad Moons tankbustas also get the re-roll of 1s when targeting something different than vehicle, which is better than nothing. And usually units like tankbustas work very well for 1-2 turns, then they are deleted or orks have already won the game and they don't matter anymore.

 Weazel wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Wunzlez wrote:
I updated my battlescribe recently and are my eyes deceiving me, or did they miss out Runtherds completely?

For me it's in no force org slot part. Dunno why.

Probably because they don't take a force organization slot if your army includes Gretchin.

Ah that explains. Had missed that rule as haven't yet fielded runtherd in new codex.

Not sure I actually like that rule...Those would have been nice brigade elite slot fillers :-/

Tankbustas are pretty legit now no matter the clan. 10 Evil Sunz Bustas getting 9 hits without even using More Dakka in my last game. Still undecided tho if I should take two units of 10 in Trukks or a unit of 20 in a Wagon...

 TedNugent wrote:

daismith906 wrote:
Always wanted to do a defwing style lost back in the day

Is it a viable option now with this codex?

Better than the Dark Angels codex.

Death Skulls can get objective secured meganobs.

Their biggest downside is their clownish slowness. Evil sunz make up for this by making deep striking them viable, as well as making them faster than terminators due to their +1 to run and +1 to charge.

So evil sunz makes arguably the best meganobz, but death skulls MANz have objective secured - eg you could make a true Deffwing list composed entirely of Mega Armor, provided a few grots to fill out mandatory troops choices.

Evils sunz are faster and with more reliable charge but if you don't cut up screeners that faction bonus isn't that good. Goffs ones can deal more damage, Death Skulls have a 6++ and Snakebits have 6+ FNP which also help if you're fielding tons of them. I'm playing Goffs mostly and their kultur bonus is good on them, but I also tried 3x5 Snakebite Meganobz and loved them. Also their transport (bonebreakas in my list) get 6+ FNP which makes the army quite more resilient. In fact I usually play Black Heart with my Drukhari mostly because of that 6+ FNP on vehicles which people underestimate (and overrate expensive situational things like Agents of Vect) but it's a huge bonus when you have 40+ W of vehicles on the table.


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 Weazel wrote:
Tankbustas are pretty legit now no matter the clan. 10 Evil Sunz Bustas getting 9 hits without even using More Dakka in my last game. Still undecided tho if I should take two units of 10 in Trukks or a unit of 20 in a Wagon...

2x10 in trukks are way more efficient. 2 trukks are more resilient than a BW and you can fire from different positions which helps a lot since rokkits only have 24'' range.

tneva82 wrote:
Ah that explains. Had missed that rule as haven't yet fielded runtherd in new codex.

Not sure I actually like that rule...Those would have been nice brigade elite slot fillers :-/

If that wasn't the exact reason for the change I'll eat my hat.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Ah that explains. Had missed that rule as haven't yet fielded runtherd in new codex.

Not sure I actually like that rule...Those would have been nice brigade elite slot fillers :-/

If that wasn't the exact reason for the change I'll eat my hat.

Arent the meks even cheaper tho?

 Dr.Duck wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Ah that explains. Had missed that rule as haven't yet fielded runtherd in new codex.

Not sure I actually like that rule...Those would have been nice brigade elite slot fillers :-/

If that wasn't the exact reason for the change I'll eat my hat.

Arent the meks even cheaper tho?

Less universally useful though especially if you aren't allowed to use index with deathskull kmb combo. Mek on it's own isn't all that gold. Runtherd meanwhile would be great to keep morale on the now mandatory grots.

PiñaColada wrote:
Ehm, so maybe a dumb question but I never actually used our flyers so.. Can a burna-bommer drop bombs on a unit that is engaged in close combat? I'm guessing no, but might as well ask.

Yes, since it's not a shooting attack. It's basically just like psychic power, explosion, aura or stratagem dealing mortal wounds.

Also, if it flies off the board, does it explode on a 4+?

It does, but you can only do that if there is no way to move your bommer without flying off. It only explodes when it's forced to move off the board due to its minimum movement speed.

 Jidmah wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
Ehm, so maybe a dumb question but I never actually used our flyers so.. Can a burna-bommer drop bombs on a unit that is engaged in close combat? I'm guessing no, but might as well ask.

Yes, since it's not a shooting attack. It's basically just like psychic power, explosion, aura or stratagem dealing mortal wounds.

Also, if it flies off the board, does it explode on a 4+?

It does, but you can only do that if there is no way to move your bommer without flying off. It only explodes when it's forced to move off the board due to its minimum movement speed.

Cool, thanks! Regarding the flying of the board thing I'm thinking experienced players could force it upon you. Say you get T1 and you manage to bomb a juicy target, like a max unit of dark reapers but to do that you had to fly pretty far downfield into your opponents deployment zone at an angle. Which would be fine if your opponent were to blow up the plane since it'd do massive damage but if they ignore it, you only have one way you could turn and fly out next time. Couldn't your opponent simply flood that area with loosely placed bases to ensure that your base can't fit anywhere? If they manage to do that, an explosion would at least be a bit of a moral victory..

Hopefully you understand what I mean, it's a bit clunky to explain rather than show.

Local tournament coming up on saturday. 1750, asked to be casual and indeed my first list was already rejected for being too powerful. Complained about spam so guess 6 mek guns(of various types) was too much. Anyway redesigning list came up with this. Hopefully I can get flash gits painted in time.

Battallion: evil suns

warboss(da killa klaw, kunning but brutal, kustom shoota)
weirdboy(fist of gork)
30xboyz(19xchoppa&slugga, 10xshoota, nob w/power klaw)
30xboyz(29xchoppa&slugga, nob w/big choppa)
10xgrots
6xwarbikes(nob w/power klaw)
5xflash git

Battalion: death skulls

2xweirdboy(da jump)
2x10 gretchin
16xgretchin
10xtank busta
15xloota
battlewagon
KMK

Okay apart from grots not much spam there and if grots are going to be problem will be last time I attend their tournaments. Another spamish is 3 weirdboys but yeah again if somebody throws problem with that...Anyway tank bustas and flash gits are defaulting on battlewagon but I could consider throwing tank bustas around in with da jump(or lootas depending on game needs). Could I btw redeploy tank bustas OUT of battlewagon with the warlord trait? Say I'm expecting BW to blow up in T1 and I don't get 1st turn but need good AT so could redeploy them out of LOS for da jumping into position.

Maybe warlord should be on one da jump weirdboy on principle warboss is likely wanting to go into combat? Though my weirdboys have annoying habit of perilling themselves to death...

Boys into tellyporta, lootas, tank bustas, flashgits and KMK blowing things up.

Any chance you could post the first list you came up with for the tournament?
Additionally, do you know what other factions are being represented at this tournament?
Getting complained about 6 MekGunz (which is barely one full force org slot when it comes down to it) is worrysome - it tells me that someone has a grudge against Orks, more than anything (based on current information).
Curious, is there an entry fee for this tournament, or is it free?

fe40k wrote:
Any chance you could post the first list you came up with for the tournament?
Additionally, do you know what other factions are being represented at this tournament?
Getting complained about 6 MekGunz (which is barely one full force org slot when it comes down to it) is worrysome - it tells me that someone has a grudge against Orks, more than anything (based on current information).
Curious, is there an entry fee for this tournament, or is it free?

Battalion: Evil sun
warboss(warlord: Kunning but brutal, kustom shoota, da killa klaw) 80
weirdboy(da jump) 62

30xork boyz(nob w/power klaw) 223
30xork boyz(nob w/big choppa) 215
10xgretchin

Battalion: Death skull

warboss(big choppa, kustom shoota) 72
weirdboy(da jump) 62

runtherd(squig hound, grabba stick) 35

10xgrots 30
10xgrots 30
10xgrots 30
10xgrots 30
10xgrots 30

10xtank busta 170
15xloota 255
chinork warkopta(skorcha) 91

Spearhead: evil sun

weirdboy(fist of gork) 62
2xmek gun(traktor kannon) 90
2xmek gun(traktor kannon) 90
2xmek gun(smasha gun) 62

total: 1749

As you can see not THAT much different(I'm getting hard pressed to think how to dilute list further without breaking WYSIWYG on clan colours keeping in mind what I have painted to what clan). I asked why and was told "avoid spamming" so since spamming stuff was grots and mek guns I figured mek guns were the issue.

No idea about other factions.

Small fee.

Ork lists rejected from events for being too strong. What a time to be alive!

 BaconCatBug wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Ah that explains. Had missed that rule as haven't yet fielded runtherd in new codex.

Not sure I actually like that rule...Those would have been nice brigade elite slot fillers :-/

If that wasn't the exact reason for the change I'll eat my hat.

Yet AM continues to field 20pt Platoon Commanders in Elite slots that are actually useful... Yay for balance and consistency.

Man you have one full unit of Mek Gunz, totalling under 250 pts. That's like saying a unit of 3 Centurions is spam.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Man you have one full unit of Mek Gunz, totalling under 250 pts. That's like saying a unit of 3 Centurions is spam.

Well i don't agree with his definitions but it is what it is. I could have understood complain better if i had say bad moons rather than death skulls or 3xdeff dreads rather than boy unit etc but this one felt rather mild. Knight list could be serious issue.

Well on flip side motivation to paint flash gits

tneva82 wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Man you have one full unit of Mek Gunz, totalling under 250 pts. That's like saying a unit of 3 Centurions is spam.

Well i don't agree with his definitions but it is what it is. I could have understood complain better if i had say bad moons rather than death skulls or 3xdeff dreads rather than boy unit etc but this one felt rather mild. Knight list could be serious issue.

Well on flip side motivation to paint flash gits

It's a "casual" tournament and Knights are allowed... what?

Sounds like a badly run tournament tbh

 Weazel wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Man you have one full unit of Mek Gunz, totalling under 250 pts. That's like saying a unit of 3 Centurions is spam.

Well i don't agree with his definitions but it is what it is. I could have understood complain better if i had say bad moons rather than death skulls or 3xdeff dreads rather than boy unit etc but this one felt rather mild. Knight list could be serious issue.

Well on flip side motivation to paint flash gits

It's a "casual" tournament and Knights are allowed... what?

Well i don't know what other factions are out there but no faction was banned. Then again pure knights are less issue than knight soup.

tneva82 wrote:

 Weazel wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Man you have one full unit of Mek Gunz, totalling under 250 pts. That's like saying a unit of 3 Centurions is spam.

Well i don't agree with his definitions but it is what it is. I could have understood complain better if i had say bad moons rather than death skulls or 3xdeff dreads rather than boy unit etc but this one felt rather mild. Knight list could be serious issue.

Well on flip side motivation to paint flash gits

It's a "casual" tournament and Knights are allowed... what?

Well i don't know what other factions are out there but no faction was banned. Then again pure knights are less issue than knight soup.

Well our biannual tournaments are pretty competitive yet we have banned all superheavies since some of them (i.e. Knights) are just plain stupid and broken. I would never attend a "casual" tournament that allowed Knights in any capacity.

Friendly and casual tournament where you can play Knights but not anti-tank artillery, hahahhaahahaahahahaha

Kebabcito wrote:
Friendly and casual tournament where you can play Knights but not anti-tank artillery, hahahhaahahaahahahaha

Mind you I don't have any evidence either way are knights allowed or not. I only know names of players. Not specific lists, not even factions. Though if there's knight soup out there(the worse kind of list. Pure knights I'm not that worried as I can deal with at least 1 and objectives should allow me to win anyway. Pure knights aren't even competive option in 8th) I'm going to have some words with the organizer.

I’ll be honest - your second list doesn’t look that strong, in a powergamey sense.

The two strongest parts are 60 Boyz, and 6 Mek Gunz. That’s not excessive in any sense.

If the tournament was free, sure, play nice and try to build a casual list - but, if they’re going to charge a fee; feth them for telling you how to play. If your opponent can’t deal with 60 Boyz/6 Mek Gunz, they’ve got bigger issues.

fe40k wrote:
I’ll be honest - your second list doesn’t look that strong, in a powergamey sense.

It wasn't intended as such.

tneva82 wrote:
Local tournament coming up on saturday. 1750, asked to be casual and indeed my first list was already rejected for being too powerful. Complained about spam so guess 6 mek guns(of various types) was too much. Anyway redesigning list came up with this. Hopefully I can get flash gits painted in time.

Battallion: evil suns

warboss(da killa klaw, kunning but brutal, kustom shoota)
weirdboy(fist of gork)
30xboyz(19xchoppa&slugga, 10xshoota, nob w/power klaw)
30xboyz(29xchoppa&slugga, nob w/big choppa)
10xgrots
6xwarbikes(nob w/power klaw)
5xflash git

Battalion: death skulls

2xweirdboy(da jump)
2x10 gretchin
16xgretchin
10xtank busta
15xloota
battlewagon
KMK

Okay apart from grots not much spam there and if grots are going to be problem will be last time I attend their tournaments. Another spamish is 3 weirdboys but yeah again if somebody throws problem with that...Anyway tank bustas and flash gits are defaulting on battlewagon but I could consider throwing tank bustas around in with da jump(or lootas depending on game needs). Could I btw redeploy tank bustas OUT of battlewagon with the warlord trait? Say I'm expecting BW to blow up in T1 and I don't get 1st turn but need good AT so could redeploy them out of LOS for da jumping into position.

Maybe warlord should be on one da jump weirdboy on principle warboss is likely wanting to go into combat? Though my weirdboys have annoying habit of perilling themselves to death...

Boys into tellyporta, lootas, tank bustas, flashgits and KMK blowing things up.

Really nice one and the Kunnin' trait is interesting, I've never tried it yet.

Why not two trukks instead of a BW though? Same points basically, but you could spread out your two shooty units, which both suffer from having short range, and two trukks are even more resilient overall than a single wagon. The only downside is the +1 drops but you already have lots of drops anyway. Maybe with no armored stuff on the table deep striking bustas and putting gitz in cover shielded by grots could be a better solution.

I'm a bit lax on rules this edition since we have been an index army for soo long. I wanted to ask a few questions here in the comfort of an ork family before I went to YMDC;

-A Bonebreaka and three Deff Dreadz get into an assault with three units of enemy infantry. After resolving the Bonebreaka's attacks, one of my Deff Dreadz involved in the assaults is no longer within an inch of an enemy before and after piling in. Can the Deff Dread consolidate? Can it consolidate within 1" of a unit it did not declare an assault with? Can it use the 'Pile In' stratagem to have a fight phase with a unit it just consolidated to within 1" of that was not origionally part of an assault?

Does difficult terrain exist in any form at all?

What are you favorite and most interesting tellyporta stratagem combos? I personally like the Goff Gorkanaught with Ramming Speed and the squad of three Deff Dreadz. I have yet to tellyport 10 meganobz, I really think a Warpath+Da Jumped squad of Skarboyz have lots of potential versus targets that might offer troublesome overwatch versus armored targets. Sadly I didn't get to actually jump my Skarboyz this weekend.

EDIT7; Does Ghaz absolutely have to use the Goff Clan trait? Does any <clan> warlord get to use anything other than their respective clan trait? This is per a black boxed rule at the bottom of the warlord trait table, I forget the page.

whaaat?

60 boyz, 60 grots, 10 tankbustas, 15 lootas, 2 warbosses, 3 weirdboyz, a runtherd, a chinork, 6 mek gunz....that doesn't sound too 'ard at all by any means!...what kind of weedy gits are the other players/TO's??

...I just played a "friendly/casual" tournament on saturday...1500-point games...there were at least a couple that brought a knight, a world eaters bezerker-heavy army, nids with a pair of flyrants...that's just what I managed to catch a glimpse of, as I was busy playing the whole time...but I'd say there would've been at least a couple of those 1500-point lists that could've handily binned that 1750 list that was rejected o_O

Are big Warbiker Nobz squads viable?

I was working on scratch-building some grot cuttas, planning to run them as oldschool buggies or skorchas, and then the codex dropped. I suppose I could still run them as index buggies/skorchas, but would it make mores sense to try to model them up as one of the new buggies? I was thinking a harpoon launcher would work nicely as a grabba-klaw if they wanted to be deff-killa trikes (they do have 3 wheels, after all), or I could do some sort of wind-powered shokk-jump contraption on top of the mast.

So the question becomes, which of the new buggies (or old buggies) is actually worth running 3 of?

I could mix-and-match, but I figured it'd be better to make them all the same since they are all going to look quite similar even if I outfit them with different gubbinz (a land-sailboat is still a land-sailboat, after all).

 Blackie wrote:
Really nice one and the Kunnin' trait is interesting, I've never tried it yet.

Logic behind it being deploy lootas/tank bustas normally but if I lose 2nd turn evacuate one or both out of LOS and then move/da jump out as needed. Lootas da jumping isn't that bad if I can use more dakka strategem to hit on 5+ ANYWAY. Now albeit I don't know what terrain is going to be like at this tournament(never even heard of this organizer. Maybe new one? At least their gaming location is new one) so maybe I don't have suitable terrain but we'll see on the spot. That's the theory at least for the trait.

Can't use the trike as no way I can get that painted in time or at least I would need to drop flashgits(and frankly flashgits are faster to paint than vehicles for me) especially as ATM I'm on slight fever.

Why not two trukks instead of a BW though? Same points basically, but you could spread out your two shooty units, which both suffer from having short range, and two trukks are even more resilient overall than a single wagon. The only downside is the +1 drops but you already have lots of drops anyway. Maybe with no armored stuff on the table deep striking bustas and putting gitz in cover shielded by grots could be a better solution.

a) this was supposed to be casual so casual tax. I wasn't even aiming to go for blood throat list(if I were death skulls would be bad moons for sure! Albeit I have to still paint them and as I forgot 4 to my dad's place so can't touch them for 2 weeks even on best painting speed I could summon up to 9 of those. 11 if bits comes in time and I assemble+paint them as well).
b) I don't have 2 trukks in death skull colours. Hell I don't even have ONE. I have 1 evil sun so guess that could take care of flash gits but no blue trukks and taking my goff trukk is pushing count as too much for me. It's too obviously clan specific colour scheme. I have unpainted trukk or two but again fewer+need to paint flashgit+I'm slow painting vehicles=good luck painting things to saturday.


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 Rismonite wrote:

-A Bonebreaka and three Deff Dreadz get into an assault with three units of enemy infantry. After resolving the Bonebreaka's attacks, one of my Deff Dreadz involved in the assaults is no longer within an inch of an enemy before and after piling in. Can the Deff Dread consolidate? Can it consolidate within 1" of a unit it did not declare an assault with? Can it use the 'Pile In' stratagem to have a fight phase with a unit it just consolidated to within 1" of that was not origionally part of an assault?

If it charged it can activate including piling in etc and fight if it gets within 1" of somebody it declared charge. If you end up within 1" of unit you did NOT declare charge you are in combat(so they can attack you) but can't attack them.

Does difficult terrain exist in any form at all?

-2 to charge distances level.

What are you favorite and most interesting tellyporta stratagem combos? I personally like the Goff Gorkanaught with Ramming Speed and the squad of three Deff Dreadz. I have yet to tellyport 10 meganobz, I really think a Warpath+Da Jumped squad of Skarboyz have lots of potential versus targets that might offer troublesome overwatch versus armored targets. Sadly I didn't get to actually jump my Skarboyz this weekend.

Evil sun gorkanaut(reliable even without ramming speed and orks are hard pressed for CP's anyway). 3 deff dreads will kick ass with that one though. Skarboyz suffer from 9" charge out of DS being unreliable. Fail that, you are dead.

EDIT7; Does Ghaz absolutely have to use the Goff Clan trait? Does any <clan> warlord get to use anything other than their respective clan trait? This is per a black boxed rule at the bottom of the warlord trait table, I forget the page.

Yes named characters have to use specified traits and for Ghazz that's the goff clan trait


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZoBo wrote:
whaaat?

60 boyz, 60 grots, 10 tankbustas, 15 lootas, 2 warbosses, 3 weirdboyz, a runtherd, a chinork, 6 mek gunz....that doesn't sound too 'ard at all by any means!...what kind of weedy gits are the other players/TO's??

I was bit of "huh?" myself. could have understood it better if deathskulls were bad moons but as I deliberately went for deathskulls to tone down list(and not give pressure painting lootas seeing I already had pressure of painting mek guns) I was bit "huh?". Will be interesting to see what kind of lists DO get through filter. If I see knight soup then I'm going to have some serious questions to the organizer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Coh Magnussen wrote:
I was working on scratch-building some grot cuttas, planning to run them as oldschool buggies or skorchas, and then the codex dropped. I suppose I could still run them as index buggies/skorchas, but would it make mores sense to try to model them up as one of the new buggies? I was thinking a harpoon launcher would work nicely as a grabba-klaw if they wanted to be deff-killa trikes (they do have 3 wheels, after all), or I could do some sort of wind-powered shokk-jump contraption on top of the mast.

So the question becomes, which of the new buggies (or old buggies) is actually worth running 3 of?

I could mix-and-match, but I figured it'd be better to make them all the same since they are all going to look quite similar even if I outfit them with different gubbinz (a land-sailboat is still a land-sailboat, after all).

Skrapjet would be king, then the shokkjump dragsta. HQ one is decent but not spammable for 3.

tneva82 wrote:
Skrapjet would be king, then the shokkjump dragsta. HQ one is decent but not spammable for 3.

Thanks! I'm having a hard time coming up with a reasonable way to model these as a skrapjet, but SJD is for sure doable.

Coh Magnussen wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Skrapjet would be king, then the shokkjump dragsta. HQ one is decent but not spammable for 3.

Thanks! I'm having a hard time coming up with a reasonable way to model these as a skrapjet, but SJD is for sure doable.

Huh? Some sort of ramming thing to the front and missiles should do the trick?

Coh Magnussen wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Skrapjet would be king, then the shokkjump dragsta. HQ one is decent but not spammable for 3.

Thanks! I'm having a hard time coming up with a reasonable way to model these as a skrapjet, but SJD is for sure doable.

Ive converted up 2 squig buggies as scrapjets. Add tracks at the back, add all the weapons that are required.

Hey guys am I the only one that doesn't have LoW options on Battlescribe? Can't see Stompa or Kill Tanks anywhere.

Also does the Freebooter ability stack. For example, I have three squads of Flash Gitz. First squad kills a unit, the next two get +1 BS. The second unit also kills a unit, does the third unit get an additional +1 (giving that squad +2 BS)?

 Elfric wrote:
Hey guys am I the only one that doesn't have LoW options on Battlescribe? Can't see Stompa or Kill Tanks anywhere.

Also does the Freebooter ability stack. For example, I have three squads of Flash Gitz. First squad kills a unit, the next two get +1 BS. The second unit also kills a unit, does the third unit get an additional +1 (giving that squad +2 BS)?

You need to select detachment that has super heavies(so super heavy detachment, auxiliary or supreme commander).

And no stacking I think

 JimOnMars wrote:
I am sure this was discussed but I couldn't find it.

When using Unstoppable Green Tide on Skarboyz or Ardboyz, do they come back with their buffs? I know some armies (nids) only regen the base versions of their troops. Is that listed such in their rules?

I would assume they would.. But per the FAQ whatever status effects they have when they removed from the battlefield are wiped clean. This came up against GSC where he hit my skarboyz with mass hypnosis. Brought them down to 7-8 models. I used unstoppable green tide. They are removed and set-up again, so mass hypnosis went away. I then realized you cant warpath and then da jump.. because the +1 attack would be lost when I re-set them up.

Da Jump is not a strategem.

 Oguhmek wrote:
Da Jump is not a strategem.

Well Thats why I said I WOULD ASSUME THAT'S HOW IT WOULD WORK. I then used an example of using a strat to perform a similar action and provided the evidence. So thanks...?

 Oguhmek wrote:
Da Jump is not a strategem.

Then comes q how spell and strategedm mith identical wordings diffeir. I would not count for it


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Darn realized problem with flash git idea. No strategem in vehicle so no more dakka to compensate moving. And grot scveen iirc didn't have specialflash git excemption so iwould need freeboota grots to cover flash gits.

Damn

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
I am sure this was discussed but I couldn't find it.

When using Unstoppable Green Tide on Skarboyz or Ardboyz, do they come back with their buffs? I know some armies (nids) only regen the base versions of their troops. Is that listed such in their rules?

I would assume they would.. But per the FAQ whatever status effects they have when they removed from the battlefield are wiped clean. This came up against GSC where he hit my skarboyz with mass hypnosis. Brought them down to 7-8 models. I used unstoppable green tide. They are removed and set-up again, so mass hypnosis went away. I then realized you cant warpath and then da jump.. because the +1 attack would be lost when I re-set them up.

We already had this argument months ago. Da Jump is not a stratagem and thus not affected by this FAQ. This FAQ is referring to stratagems like "Endless Green Tide" that remove and replace the unit. A unit that is Warpathed and then Endless Green Tided will lose Warpath for sure, but not if it is Da Jumped.


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Anyone else had success with the Boomwagon? For only 100 points it seems to put out a lot of dakka and can harass enemies pretty effectively.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Anyone else had success with the Boomwagon? For only 100 points it seems to put out a lot of dakka and can harass enemies pretty effectively.

I'm guessing you mean the Boomdakka Snazzwagon. It's been discussed back and forth. Jidmah did a comparison between it and the KBB a few pages back and it didn't look great. I myself am a big fan of the model but not a fan of the rules. It does have the nice little benefit of being hard to hit but I'm not sure (other than liking the model or dislike running duplicates) why you'd take it over dakkajets, KBBs or warbikers.

I'd love to hear success stories from it though

i wish it was effective because it looks great.
Its the cheapest buggy, since the Scrapjet has a 20pt bigshoota tax so its actually 110, but it has virtually no attack power by comparison.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i wish it was effective because it looks great.
Its the cheapest buggy, since the Scrapjet has a 20pt bigshoota tax so its actually 110, but it has virtually no attack power by comparison.

The KBB is also 100 points though. Making it all round a bit more attractive

Got another chance to test out a couple of builds this weekend. I had a somewhat more competitive game at 2k and a less competitive game at 2.5k to play around with.

for the non-competitive game I took the opportunity to run every buggy as itself, playing against a full Primaris space marine army my buddy had. The Wazbomb Blastajet, Megatrakk Skrapjet and Shokkjump Dragsta came up big in those games, especially with the Freeboota Kultur boosting them up. I was using two Trakktors and a fully loaded grot mega tank with 7x rokkits to finish off a unit and trigger the kultur, and then I used Long Uncontrolled Bursts a couple times on top of it for some seriously goofy ork ballistic skill.

For the more competitive game, I trimmed out the fat, ran the following list:



The less competitive game doesn't really matter, I did win, but it was just kind of a goofy battle anyway. The highlights were the Squigbuggy miraculously managing to make its points back by landing a miracle volley of bitey squigs on a unit of plasma inceptors and wiping them, and the Defkilla shooting past a gap in the lines with Fists of Gork and smashing a Chapter Master and a Chaplain in one round with Orks is Never Beaten.

For the competitive game I was up against a slightly toned-down version of the standard knight soup list. He had instead of a castellan a Warden with the relic chaingun, he had the catachan guard screen with straken and command point engine, but instead of guard arty he had an admech battalion with min rangers, a couple shooty kastelans and a couple neutron onagers.

We set up turn 1, I lost the roll to go first because of the +1 he had, and he used Knight of the Cog to make his knight count as in cover. I didn't use the 2nd turn cover strat because most of my stuff that was going to be targeted was in the KFF or Deep Struck. I started out down 3CP because of the tellyported dreads and the warphead, so I had 10 to his 10 as well (he spent a few I think on relic+Character trait for the knight). The onagers and dakkabots both put their shooting into the Wazbom, luckily only one onager shot went through and it only did 3, I spent a CP to reroll a 5++ and succeeded the second time. Between them and the bots the Wazbom took 7 damage, but stayed up. The knight declared all its shooting into the 30 boyz, I grot shielded it into gretchin for a first blood I was happy to give up.

He moved the wall of lasguns up but they were not in range for double tapping, they went into the 10 boyz figuring there were fewer between them and the nob and killed 8 in total between them and the admech rangers.

My turn, looking at 8cp left I decided it wasn't worth the 1cp to bring the extra tankbusta boy and big choppa nob from the small boyz squad, so I just left them to the backfield and Warpathed+Da Jumped the boyz up (took perils on both weirdboys but each did only 1 damage). Fists of Gork'd the deffkilla after the boyz were out of the way, succeeded with no perils, so I had him in a solid position to charge into the screen as well. I declared a smasha gun into the knight and he put up the 3++, I just wanted to make him spend the CP. The rest of my smasha guns went into Onagers, and on the third one I succeeded in killing it, popping Freeboota kultur on all my ork shooters. The rest of my shooting killed one kastelan and took the other to 1 wound. Tanked overwatch from almost all the lasguns with my deffkilla and warbikes, then the boyz easily got into combat, declaring on all the guardsmen. 3CP to fight again with warpath plus the boss+bike squad, wiped 60 guardsmen and 15 skitarii. I didnt get the company commander or straken because they opted to not heroically intervene in.

Guard turn, he did a similar thing but this time the 2 remaining onagers succeeded in downing the plane, and there were no grots in front of the boys so the boys pretty much got dead. They survived long enough to keep the deffkilla out of harms way though, so bonus there! Straken and the CC decided theyd rather fight warbikes than the deffkilla, and they succeeded in murdering them.

My turn 2, deff dreads plopped in, screened out a tiny bit by straken and CC. I Fist of Gorked the killa klaw boss and sent him in along with the shokkjump dragsta who was close enough to get to the knight. Easily shot the last robot to death with smashas, turning freebootas on again and started shooting up the knight. My opponent waited to turn on the 3++ until it was clear I was putting some hurt on the knight, so I got 6 damage into the knight until he turned it on and I switched over to damaging the hardest to reach onager. The dragsta just barely survived overwatch from the knight and got in, shepherding the klawboss, and the deff dreads rolled pretty bad to get in, with only one getting the 10" charge needed to get to the Onager I could reach. One made it into straken+CC, who were semi-screening the deep strike, and the other didn't go anywhere. Selected the boss first, 3CP fight twice, and totaled the knight. My opponent used the strat to get him up at the end of the phase. He also used 2cp to interrupt with Straken and deal some damage to the dread, but could not kill it. The dread killed straken but not the CC, and the other killed the onager.

Opponent turn 2, he spent a CP to make the knight fight at full, shot the bikeboss to death with the super chaingun, finished off the dragsta with his shoulder rockets, and the last onager finished off the dread that had been fighting straken and got damaged.

My turn, my opponent said he'd concede if I killed the knight in shooting, and I did with the smasha guns, so we called it there. I would have tabled him pretty easily with what I had left.

Seemed pretty clean tbh. The list wasn't far off the crazy tourney meta-list, and orks took it down fairly handily.



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PiñaColada wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Anyone else had success with the Boomwagon? For only 100 points it seems to put out a lot of dakka and can harass enemies pretty effectively.

I'm guessing you mean the Boomdakka Snazzwagon. It's been discussed back and forth. Jidmah did a comparison between it and the KBB a few pages back and it didn't look great. I myself am a big fan of the model but not a fan of the rules. It does have the nice little benefit of being hard to hit but I'm not sure (other than liking the model or dislike running duplicates) why you'd take it over dakkajets, KBBs or warbikers.

I'd love to hear success stories from it though

Luckily it's pretty easy to turn into a KBB with a bit of a modification to the gun and some kind of burna weapon added on.

tneva82 wrote:

 Elfric wrote:
Hey guys am I the only one that doesn't have LoW options on Battlescribe? Can't see Stompa or Kill Tanks anywhere.

Also does the Freebooter ability stack. For example, I have three squads of Flash Gitz. First squad kills a unit, the next two get +1 BS. The second unit also kills a unit, does the third unit get an additional +1 (giving that squad +2 BS)?

You need to select detachment that has super heavies(so super heavy detachment, auxiliary or supreme commander).

And no stacking I think

Much appreciated dude that worked.

What is everyone's opinion on the Kill Tank? Is it too expensive because it has amazing stats especially now with the Kukturs

Boomdakka Snazzwagon is a classic harassing unit...but, one that I have found very useful in a mainly msu vehicle list. In previous editions, I used lots of grot tanks to perform the same roll. Basically, opponents ignore it due to low strength and perceived weakness, combined with its moderate protection (-1 to hit). It has the added advantage of being a physically large model with a substantial base. So, it has been very useful in stalling the enemy to keep them from an objective, blocking their movement and then daring them to charge it (exploding on a 4+). At 100 points, it cheap enough to place in risky situations to protect more valuable units, disrupt the opponent's movements, etc.

Also, I have had some hilarious success with killa kans in a rather unintended way. Last game, my opponents were using a deepstrike heavy khorne daemon and world eaters army (with a few forgeworld blood slaughterers). I managed to bait them into charging a unit of killa kans in a narrow alley, at which point the killa kans interrupted the combat sequence and almost killed a blood slaughterer. When they attacked back and killed all but one kan, two of them exploded killing the blood slaughter, some daemons, and the super killy, angry chaos marine lord (I am blanking on his name).

karandrasss wrote:
Are big Warbiker Nobz squads viable?

Well, without additional gear they compare poorly to koptas and a full unit is 380 points, which compares even worse to a unit of 10 nobz in a bonebreaka, which is 299 points.

If you really want to run biker nobz, you should do it in smaller units and be prepared to keep exhaust cloud stratagem up on them at all times. Also make sure to block LOS to them with a battlewagon or two.
Give them skorchas and/or dual killsaws and hit something valuable hard. Without using the index, they are the only fast skorchas we have left, and dual killsaws at least make them somewhat more killy thank koptas.

 Jidmah wrote:

karandrasss wrote:
Are big Warbiker Nobz squads viable?

Well, without additional gear they compare poorly to koptas and a full unit is 380 points, which compares even worse to a unit of 10 nobz in a bonebreaka, which is 299 points.

If you really want to run biker nobz, you should do it in smaller units and be prepared to keep exhaust cloud stratagem up on them at all times. Also make sure to block LOS to them with a battlewagon or two.
Give them skorchas and/or dual killsaws and hit something valuable hard. Without using the index, they are the only fast skorchas we have left, and dual killsaws at least make them somewhat more killy thank koptas.

Tricky to los block with wagon seeing wagon has hole belows among tracks and wheels

Do you think Scorcha nobz are worth it? I can get two dual-choppa nobz for 1 scorcha nob with points to spare. 10s5AP- attacks that hit on 3s seems better than D6 authotting S5 Ap-1 hits.

 Jidmah wrote:
Without using the index, they are the only fast skorchas we have left,

I think the Nob Bikers are explicitely forbidden from using Kombi-Skorchas.

if they didnt have to give up their melee weapons i would totally run kombi nobz.
Imagine 10 nobz with Kombirokkits doing More Dakka and firing both profiles, still hitting on 5s and generating more shots, then charge in with bigchoppas.
I will never run kombis on nobz because they are a melee unit and you cant take a bigchoppa/pk if you take a kombi.

I actually dropped Skorchas on my dreads, totally not worth 17pts imo.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
if they didnt have to give up their melee weapons i would totally run kombi nobz.
Imagine 10 nobz with Kombirokkits doing More Dakka and firing both profiles, still hitting on 5s and generating more shots, then charge in with bigchoppas.
I will never run kombis on nobz because they are a melee unit and you cant take a bigchoppa/pk if you take a kombi.

I actually dropped Skorchas on my dreads, totally not worth 17pts imo.

Yeah and all that value for only what...31ppm?

Oof. Again, I can have for that price a big choppa nob...and a Tankbusta who gets rerolls to hit, I can stick in my shooty kultur detachment, and is one more thing my opponent has to shoot.

Dammit. Had had some hope flash gits would be if not great at least playable but without free boota detachment seems bit hard. Can\t use more dakka inside transport so can't use that to overcome having to move T1. If you are outside transport can't use grot screen either without freeboota detachment. Bummer :(

tneva82 wrote:
Dammit. Had had some hope flash gits would be if not great at least playable but without free boota detachment seems bit hard. Can\t use more dakka inside transport so can't use that to overcome having to move T1. If you are outside transport can't use grot screen either without freeboota detachment. Bummer :(

I think that attaching everything to <clan> was a huge misstep. I cannot really blame them because modern players all want special snowflake rules for each sub-faction.

I think skorchas, and flamers in general, are over-priced.

tneva82 wrote:
Dammit. Had had some hope flash gits would be if not great at least playable but without free boota detachment seems bit hard. Can\t use more dakka inside transport so can't use that to overcome having to move T1. If you are outside transport can't use grot screen either without freeboota detachment. Bummer :(

I mean, freeboota detachments are nearly free though. You're gonna want weirdboys. you're gonna want gretchins. You're gonna want mek gunz. Put those in freebootas, and they kinda-sorta get a benefit from a clan.

the_scotsman wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Dammit. Had had some hope flash gits would be if not great at least playable but without free boota detachment seems bit hard. Can\t use more dakka inside transport so can't use that to overcome having to move T1. If you are outside transport can't use grot screen either without freeboota detachment. Bummer :(

I mean, freeboota detachments are nearly free though. You're gonna want weirdboys. you're gonna want gretchins. You're gonna want mek gunz. Put those in freebootas, and they kinda-sorta get a benefit from a clan.

Then figure in how to fit evil suns(deep strikers) and bad moon(tank bustas, lootas). That's minimum of 5 HQ+6 troop+3 mek guns. Plus the free boota grots.

What do you think would be the best way to run bikers? MSU of 3 to keep things cheap, or by large squad to be able to maximise the -1 to hit stratagem?

tneva82 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Dammit. Had had some hope flash gits would be if not great at least playable but without free boota detachment seems bit hard. Can\t use more dakka inside transport so can't use that to overcome having to move T1. If you are outside transport can't use grot screen either without freeboota detachment. Bummer :(

I mean, freeboota detachments are nearly free though. You're gonna want weirdboys. you're gonna want gretchins. You're gonna want mek gunz. Put those in freebootas, and they kinda-sorta get a benefit from a clan.

Then figure in how to fit evil suns(deep strikers) and bad moon(tank bustas, lootas). That's minimum of 5 HQ+6 troop+3 mek guns. Plus the free boota grots.

I don't think bad moon is that essential. I'd include one CP spendy detachment (for me, that's the evil sunz) and one CP light detachment (Freebootas need basically no CPs to do their thing).

But if you really wanted to include a bad moon doubleshot combo, throw in an aux supp detachment for your maxed out unit of tankbustas or whatever you wanted. You see that all the time in competitive lists where people want to get their farseer or their shining spears or whatever into the list, but don't want to bring mandatory units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JeffVimes wrote:
What do you think would be the best way to run bikers? MSU of 3 to keep things cheap, or by large squad to be able to maximise the -1 to hit stratagem?

Go large, but IMO they're a minimally competitive unit at best. I think a large squad is the best way to run a mediocre unit. In small squads, I just wonder why I'm not just bringing a skrapjet, a deffcopta, or even a boomdakka for a couple points more.

 Rismonite wrote:
-A Bonebreaka and three Deff Dreadz get into an assault with three units of enemy infantry. After resolving the Bonebreaka's attacks, one of my Deff Dreadz involved in the assaults is no longer within an inch of an enemy before and after piling in. Can the Deff Dread consolidate?

I don't see why not. A unit can be chosen to fight if it made a successful charge and being unable to choose a target to attack doesn't prevent you from completing the rest of the fight sequence.

 Rismonite wrote:
Can it consolidate within 1" of a unit it did not declare an assault with?

There is no rule I'm aware of which prevents you from doing that. The only restriction is that you have to move towards the closest enemy model.

 Rismonite wrote:
Can it use the 'Pile In' stratagem to have a fight phase with a unit it just consolidated to within 1" of that was not origionally part of an assault?

You mean 'Get stuck in ladz!'? No. Firstly, it only affects infantry and secondly, it does not over-ride any of the normal rules for fighting in the fight phase (except being able to do it with a unit which already fought, obviously).

 Rismonite wrote:
Does difficult terrain exist in any form at all?

Yes, in some form. Each terrain piece has its own rules. See the 'battlefield terrain' section on pp. 248-251 of the big rule book. Woods, ruins, craters, and obstacles all have rules which affect movement.

 Rismonite wrote:
Does Ghaz absolutely have to use the Goff Clan trait? Does any <clan> warlord get to use anything other than their respective clan trait? This is per a black boxed rule at the bottom of the warlord trait table, I forget the page.

Yes, Ghaz has to take the Goff trait. The box is on p. 132 of the ork codex and is completely unambiguous about this, even giving him as the example. Named ork characters absolutely always have to have their clan warlord trait.

the_scotsman wrote:
I don't think bad moon is that essential. I'd include one CP spendy detachment (for me, that's the evil sunz) and one CP light detachment (Freebootas need basically no CPs to do their thing).

I figure lootas and tankbustas in bad moon are lot more essential than flash gits...Even with grot screen I'm not sold on flash gits actually being GOOD. Expensive and get hurt by having to move T1 regardless of what.

tneva82 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I don't think bad moon is that essential. I'd include one CP spendy detachment (for me, that's the evil sunz) and one CP light detachment (Freebootas need basically no CPs to do their thing).

I figure lootas and tankbustas in bad moon are lot more essential than flash gits...Even with grot screen I'm not sold on flash gits actually being GOOD. Expensive and get hurt by having to move T1 regardless of what.

When I compared pros and cons of lootas v flash gits I ended up liking the gits a lot more.

I'd take a trukk for either of them personally, for the lootas primarily to keep them from being shot and they get a 50% chance for a free Loot It when it dies, for the gits to get them in range and because Loot It is huge value for them.

I'm taking both of them for either heavy infantry or light vehicle duty, so my primary targets tend to be T5 or less where the 1 point of strength the lootas have matters less to me. For T7 3+ I have bustas and smashas, easy choice there.

Against any target where the extra point of AP (-2 vs -1) that isn't either T6 or T7, the flash gits do more damage per point than the lootas even on the turn they move and drop to hitting on 5+. T6 is remarkably rare, and T7 again I'm not taking them for. So really, it's just the range. The gits are more durable, ramp up in the following turn to doing much more damage, come with an ablative model for when the trukk pops, and dont require me to spend 1cp to protect every time a stiff breeze blows their way once they're out in the open.

For the bustas, unless you're taking a max blob and trying to do showin' off double taps with them, make much more sense in a freeboota detachment. Simple reason being if the bad moon kultur matters...you're shooting them at the wrong thing. And even when it does matter, assuming your mek gunz can kill something (if they don't, you don't have enough mek gunz) the freeboota kultur is a higher numbers swing than the bad moonz kultur anyway.

tneva82 wrote:
Dammit. Had had some hope flash gits would be if not great at least playable but without free boota detachment seems bit hard. Can\t use more dakka inside transport so can't use that to overcome having to move T1. If you are outside transport can't use grot screen either without freeboota detachment. Bummer :(

1) The bonus of more dakka doesn't care if gits move or not since they have BS4+(3+ for the kaptin). You get the same bonus damage out of the stratagem whether you move or not.
2) What's wrong with just moving them T1? Even at BS5+ they throw down ridiculous amounts of dakka, easily being worth their points (3 dead primaris/4.5 dead GEQ). You can then bunker up somewhere midfield starting T2. Heavy weapons can and should move this edition, plus gits have a close combat profile you might want to use.
3) Putting them in a detachment with gretchin doesn't do a lot outside letting those gretchin die for them via stratagem. The Freeboota trait only does something when you wipe out a unit, gretchin are not going to do that.

If you really want to field Freeboota flash gits, I'd go with badrukk + 3x 5 flash gits to maximize the free gitfindas on the captins as a spearhead. You're also more likely to have models benefiting from +1 to hit. Since you check if something is dead after every 15 shots. Best case you can have badrukk blow something up and then all three units get BS2+/3+ with re-rolling ones.
Stratagem coverage really doesn't matter here as more dakka is just overkill for them, plus you already have plenty of units eating your CP.

In general, IMO Freeboota kulture only makes sense when you have many units that benefit from it and many units that can trigger it. Unlike other kultures, souping hurts them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JeffVimes wrote:
What do you think would be the best way to run bikers? MSU of 3 to keep things cheap, or by large squad to be able to maximise the -1 to hit stratagem?

There is no advantage in running MSU. The klaw can't kill anything, and you lack numbers to wipe out infantry or contest objectives.

 Jidmah wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Dammit. Had had some hope flash gits would be if not great at least playable but without free boota detachment seems bit hard. Can\t use more dakka inside transport so can't use that to overcome having to move T1. If you are outside transport can't use grot screen either without freeboota detachment. Bummer :(

1) The bonus of more dakka doesn't care if gits move or not since they have BS4+(3+ for the kaptin). You get the same bonus damage out of the stratagem whether you move or not.
2) What's wrong with just moving them T1? Even at BS5+ they throw down ridiculous amounts of dakka, easily being worth their points (3 dead primaris/4.5 dead GEQ). You can then bunker up somewhere midfield starting T2. Heavy weapons can and should move this edition, plus gits have a close combat profile you might want to use.
3) Putting them in a detachment with gretchin doesn't do a lot outside letting those gretchin die for them via stratagem. The Freeboota trait only does something when you wipe out a unit, gretchin are not going to do that.

If you really want to field Freeboota flash gits, I'd go with badrukk + 3x 5 flash gits to maximize the free gitfindas on the captins as a spearhead. You're also more likely to have models benefiting from +1 to hit. Since you check if something is dead after every 15 shots. Best case you can have badrukk blow something up and then all three units get BS2+/3+ with re-rolling ones.
Stratagem coverage really doesn't matter here as more dakka is just overkill for them, plus you already have plenty of units eating your CP.

In general, IMO Freeboota kulture only makes sense when you have many units that benefit from it and many units that can trigger it. Unlike other kultures, souping hurts them.

Remember, Mek Gunz are gretchins. and they're really really good at killing things.

The only reason to take actual grots (the troop choice) in your freeboota detchment is...why wouldn't you, CPs are nice! sure you need one more mandatory HQ, but ork psychic powers don't care about Clan, so just take your Weirdboyz as Freebootas.

When I was making up my lists, I found no reason to not include a freeboota detachment, I was bringing enough gretchin for a second battalion anyway and it was just like...ok, I'll throw my shooty units in here and I'll just remember to shoot with the mek guns first. Both turns that mattered, I was able to have my flash gits and my wazbom jet boosted with the freeboota kultur in the shooting phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And if you don't want to invest even that heavily, one single unit of Flash Gitz can be turned into a Spearhead by declaring 1 weirdboy and 2 individual mek gunz as freebootas.

You're going to want minimum 1 waaagh aura in an army, and minimum 2 weirdboys (IMO, fists of gork and da jump are pretty mandatory).

that means you'll almost always have 1 HQ free to slip into a mandatory slot.

the_scotsman wrote:

I'd take a trukk for either of them personally, for the lootas primarily to keep them from being shot and they get a 50% chance for a free Loot It when it dies, for the gits to get them in range and because Loot It is huge value for them.

Inside trukk no more dakka, no show off. And the loot it for passengers is disputed status in terms of legality.

For the bustas, unless you're taking a max blob and trying to do showin' off double taps with them, make much more sense in a freeboota detachment. Simple reason being if the bad moon kultur matters...you're shooting them at the wrong thing. And even when it does matter, assuming your mek gunz can kill something (if they don't, you don't have enough mek gunz) the freeboota kultur is a higher numbers swing than the bad moonz kultur anyway.

a) show off
b) you can't always dictate targets. Hell there are entire factions where you won't HAVE vehicles to shoot at but have plenty of big tough targets to shoot at.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:

3) Putting them in a detachment with gretchin doesn't do a lot outside letting those gretchin die for them via stratagem. The Freeboota trait only does something when you wipe out a unit, gretchin are not going to do that.

That's the whole point...Otherwise they get just deleted when enemy decides it's their time to die. Flash gits problem has never been killyness(that was good enough in index) but the fact they get deleted the moment enemy has turn.

Put Flashgitz in a Battlewagon. If the Battlewagon is destroyed, have a unit loot it for 3+ armour save.

Flashgitz are one of the most improved units now and tougher now. Put a Painboy with them if you want to extend their survivability.

 Elfric wrote:
Put Flashgitz in a Battlewagon. If the Battlewagon is destroyed, have a unit loot it for 3+ armour save.

Flashgitz are one of the most improved units now and tougher now. Put a Painboy with them if you want to extend their survivability.

a) no strategems inside it so no more dakka
b) legality of loot if for passengers is seriously debated so don't count on being able to do it at least until FAQ clears it up.

Honestly, I think this depends on where you think CPs are better spent. I'd rather my shooting unit sit in their transport and continue to fire every turn than my shooting unit pop out, shoot twice one time, then instantly die to return fire.

If I spend CPs I'm going to be fighting twice, tellyporting, and throwing down grot shields. If you're going to go for a full shooty list, I 100% agree that you should bring some tankbustas in a bad moonz detachment for showin' off, but if I'm not dumping CPs into a shooty unit I want it to be in my freebootas detachment instead, since freebootas is a higher value kultur once it does go off.

Tankbustas in general I just look at and go..man..I could spend these points on more smasha gunz...wheras with flash gitz/lootas I feel they have more of a unique role to bring to the table. And I prefer the gitz to the lootas.

A unit of Bad Moonz Lootas firing at a T5 or less target where the multi-damage matters on Showin' Off deals .061 damage per point.

A unit of flash gitz just sitting in a trukk, using no stratagems, at their full BS with the Freebootas kultur on deals .059 damage per point.

a unit with 4+ save sitting in the protection of their trukk and spending no CP > a unit with a 6+ save that has to sit in the open and spend 2CP.

really dont see how people are saying you cant use CP on a unit embarked.
By that logic you cant shoot with them period. Open Topped doesnt specify a special way to select them to shoot. At all.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
really dont see how people are saying you cant use CP on a unit embarked.
By that logic you cant shoot with them period. Open Topped doesnt specify a special way to select them to shoot. At all.

Unit in transport is not on board and is not valid for any action unless specific excemption is given. Open topped gives you special excemption to shoot with. It does not specify any special excemption for strategems though.

I went looking to see if any FAQ specifically mentioned stratagems and open-topped (it doesn't, though it does mentioned that Aura abilities do not affect units inside a transport firing with Open Topped)

but the BRB faq did have this to say about the sequence with disembarking when a transport is destroyed:

"Q: How do transports work with regards to disembarking units
upon the transport’s destruction?
A: Disembarking from a destroyed transport operates
as follows:

1. If the transport has the Explodes ability (or equivalent)
roll to see if it explodes and resolve any resulting
damage to nearby units.*

2. All models inside immediately disembark following the
standard rules for disembarkation.

3. Roll a number of D6 equal to the number of models
disembarked in this fashion.

4. Each result of a 1 yields a slain model, and must be
allocated to one of the models which disembarked; the
controlling player may choose which model.

5. Remove the destroyed transport model.

* Note that if the transport does explode, units being
transported are not affected as they are not yet on
the battlefield."

I don't understand how you could interpret this sequence in such a way where a unit would not be able to use Loot It! when they disembark from the transport at step 2, but before you remove the destroyed transport at step 5.

The transport is described as "destroyed" from step 1, and it is also described as "destroyed" at step 5....it follows from that that at step 2, the unit is on the board, and there is a destroyed transport within 3" of it. Therefore, use the stratagem then.

Wheres the debate here?

I have asked GW about this, so hopefully they clarify it. One way or another.

In normal cases a unit embarked on a transport is not considered to be "on the table" but they are at that point basically a static entity on another table not yet in the game. If a shooting unit is in an open-topped vehicle they can participate in the shooting phase and as such should be able to be targeted by stratagems I feel. They are on the table then, a transport is really not any different than a grot shield in my mind.

Until GW states otherwise I won't play strats on them but I really do believe they intended it to be possible to play strats on units embarked on open topped transports.

the_scotsman wrote:
Wheres the debate here?

There's entire thread about that on YDMC that's so far undecided. If you have thread that just fizzled off without good answer either way it's pretty clear sign it's still disbuted.

the_scotsman wrote:
I went looking to see if any FAQ specifically mentioned stratagems and open-topped (it doesn't, though it does mentioned that Aura abilities do not affect units inside a transport firing with Open Topped)

but the BRB faq did have this to say about the sequence with disembarking when a transport is destroyed:

"Q: How do transports work with regards to disembarking units
upon the transport’s destruction?
A: Disembarking from a destroyed transport operates
as follows:

1. If the transport has the Explodes ability (or equivalent)
roll to see if it explodes and resolve any resulting
damage to nearby units.*

2. All models inside immediately disembark following the
standard rules for disembarkation.

3. Roll a number of D6 equal to the number of models
disembarked in this fashion.

4. Each result of a 1 yields a slain model, and must be
allocated to one of the models which disembarked; the
controlling player may choose which model.

5. Remove the destroyed transport model.

* Note that if the transport does explode, units being
transported are not affected as they are not yet on
the battlefield."

I don't understand how you could interpret this sequence in such a way where a unit would not be able to use Loot It! when they disembark from the transport at step 2, but before you remove the destroyed transport at step 5.

The transport is described as "destroyed" from step 1, and it is also described as "destroyed" at step 5....it follows from that that at step 2, the unit is on the board, and there is a destroyed transport within 3" of it. Therefore, use the stratagem then.

Wheres the debate here?

Personally don’t understand why there’s any debate it’s pretty clear in raw and rai that you can’t loot a vehicle you are in.

Guyver 3 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I went looking to see if any FAQ specifically mentioned stratagems and open-topped (it doesn't, though it does mentioned that Aura abilities do not affect units inside a transport firing with Open Topped)

but the BRB faq did have this to say about the sequence with disembarking when a transport is destroyed:

"Q: How do transports work with regards to disembarking units
upon the transport’s destruction?
A: Disembarking from a destroyed transport operates
as follows:

1. If the transport has the Explodes ability (or equivalent)
roll to see if it explodes and resolve any resulting
damage to nearby units.*

2. All models inside immediately disembark following the
standard rules for disembarkation.

3. Roll a number of D6 equal to the number of models
disembarked in this fashion.

4. Each result of a 1 yields a slain model, and must be
allocated to one of the models which disembarked; the
controlling player may choose which model.

5. Remove the destroyed transport model.

* Note that if the transport does explode, units being
transported are not affected as they are not yet on
the battlefield."

I don't understand how you could interpret this sequence in such a way where a unit would not be able to use Loot It! when they disembark from the transport at step 2, but before you remove the destroyed transport at step 5.

The transport is described as "destroyed" from step 1, and it is also described as "destroyed" at step 5....it follows from that that at step 2, the unit is on the board, and there is a destroyed transport within 3" of it. Therefore, use the stratagem then.

Wheres the debate here?

Personally don’t understand why there’s any debate it’s pretty clear in raw and rai that you can’t loot a vehicle you are in.

...You use the stratagem when a vehicle is destroyed.

You get out of the vehicle at step 2 of this sequence. at that point, you are now on the board.

let's look at step 5 of this sequence to see if the vehicle is still destroyed at Step 2. It's destroyed at the beginning of this sequence. It's still destroyed at step 5 of this sequence.

Does it stop being destroyed at some point?

the_scotsman wrote:

Guyver 3 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I went looking to see if any FAQ specifically mentioned stratagems and open-topped (it doesn't, though it does mentioned that Aura abilities do not affect units inside a transport firing with Open Topped)

but the BRB faq did have this to say about the sequence with disembarking when a transport is destroyed:

"Q: How do transports work with regards to disembarking units
upon the transport’s destruction?
A: Disembarking from a destroyed transport operates
as follows:

1. If the transport has the Explodes ability (or equivalent)
roll to see if it explodes and resolve any resulting
damage to nearby units.*

2. All models inside immediately disembark following the
standard rules for disembarkation.

3. Roll a number of D6 equal to the number of models
disembarked in this fashion.

4. Each result of a 1 yields a slain model, and must be
allocated to one of the models which disembarked; the
controlling player may choose which model.

5. Remove the destroyed transport model.

* Note that if the transport does explode, units being
transported are not affected as they are not yet on
the battlefield."

I don't understand how you could interpret this sequence in such a way where a unit would not be able to use Loot It! when they disembark from the transport at step 2, but before you remove the destroyed transport at step 5.

The transport is described as "destroyed" from step 1, and it is also described as "destroyed" at step 5....it follows from that that at step 2, the unit is on the board, and there is a destroyed transport within 3" of it. Therefore, use the stratagem then.

Wheres the debate here?

Personally don’t understand why there’s any debate it’s pretty clear in raw and rai that you can’t loot a vehicle you are in.

...You use the stratagem when a vehicle is destroyed.

You get out of the vehicle at step 2 of this sequence. at that point, you are now on the board.

let's look at step 5 of this sequence to see if the vehicle is still destroyed at Step 2. It's destroyed at the beginning of this sequence. It's still destroyed at step 5 of this sequence.

Does it stop being destroyed at some point?

The stratagem says when a vehicle is destroyed within 3” of a unit you can loot it

A unit embarked on a transport would not be on the table when the unit was destroyed and embarked units can’t benefit from stratagems

I know kombis are expensive but... I feel like if you’re teleporting a unit in a tank/trukk and have limited capacity and a few extra points... maybe I would run a couple of kombis?
Heck even if ya just had extra points and no useful or way you wanted to use them


Could teleport 2 trukk full of nobs, with some kombis, and a wagon full of grots (or grots and chars) to shield them (and provide them a 20 cap transport they can both get into if need be? 10 grots and a wagon is like 9 PL? So could easily cram a couple characters on the wagon the teleport in also.

Probably not most effective use of points but I could see a use. I was thinking having a unit of them roast something to buff rest of army with +1 to hit. Skorxhas would be only ranged weap in unit and help get buff up like mek guns. Thought anti infantry, short range and same point cost with much lower damage potential.... but the delivery system is more mobile, has utility to fight in CC (especially with a cheap power stabba)... can stick with the rest of your army opposed to be overrun like Mek guns may? (If playing freebooters and looking for something to Combo the bonus. Having some shooting on every single unit seems important for this, one Infantry model from Some chaff unit could be easily killed by a single skorcha or a Kustom shoota from a nob or manz squad?

skyfi wrote:
I know kombis are expensive but... I feel like if you’re teleporting a unit in a tank/trukk and have limited capacity and a few extra points... maybe I would run a couple of kombis?
Heck even if ya just had extra points and no useful or way you wanted to use the


Could teleport 2 trukk full of nobs, with some kombis, and a wagon full of grots (or grots and chars) to shield them (and provide them a 20 cap transport they can both get into if need be? 10 grots and a wagon is like 9 PL? So could easily cram a couple characters on the wagon the teleport in also.

Probably not most effective use of points but I could see a use. I was thinking having a unit of them roast something to buff rest of army with +1 to hit. Skorxhas would be only ranged weap in unit and help get buff up like mek guns. Thought anti infantry, short range and same point cost with much lower damage potential.... but the delivery system is more mobile, has utility to fight in CC (especially with a cheap power stabba)... can stick with the rest of your army opposed to be overrun like Mek guns may? (If playing freebooters and looking for something to Combo the bonus. Having some shooting on every single unit seems important for this, one Infantry model from Some chaff unit could be easily killed by a single skorcha or a Kustom shoota from a nob or manz squad?

Umm you would spend 2CP to teleport some GROTS? Remember it's not units up to 20PL but unit up to 20PL. Each unit you put into teleport is 2CP(units inside transport don't count for PL of transport). Thus 2 trukks with nobs=4 CP, wagon full of grots=2CP, total=6CP.

Orks are hard pressed for CP's as it is. Tellyporting grots is not particulary efficient usage of CP's.

So, this was one of those arguments where a rule was unclear enough that one side could just keep yelling "I FEEL LIKE THIS SHOULD NOT WORK" loud enough to keep it "in debate" until we get a definite FAQ in 2 weeks. Gotcha. If you read the existing FAQ, it's pretty damn clear that a vehicle is still "destroyed" when you get out of it and before you remove it from the table - unless you're in the habit of claiming to your opponent that they're not allowed to use any kind of reactive stratagem unless they scream out that they're using it at the exact millisecond you declare something, there doesn't seem to be a ton of ground to stand on here. 40k is a board game. Nothing is truly "momentary" - "when a unit is targeted by a shooting attack" lasts from when the declaration is made until the dice begin to roll. "when a vehicle is destroyed" lasts from when the vehicle loses its final wound until the vehicle is removed from the board, as the existing FAQ ruling makes clear.

skifi, how are you using a kombi scorcha on a unit that is teleporting? Also, you need to kill a UNIT to get freebootas, not a model.

tneva82 wrote:

skyfi wrote:
I know kombis are expensive but... I feel like if you’re teleporting a unit in a tank/trukk and have limited capacity and a few extra points... maybe I would run a couple of kombis?
Heck even if ya just had extra points and no useful or way you wanted to use the


Could teleport 2 trukk full of nobs, with some kombis, and a wagon full of grots (or grots and chars) to shield them (and provide them a 20 cap transport they can both get into if need be? 10 grots and a wagon is like 9 PL? So could easily cram a couple characters on the wagon the teleport in also.

Probably not most effective use of points but I could see a use. I was thinking having a unit of them roast something to buff rest of army with +1 to hit. Skorxhas would be only ranged weap in unit and help get buff up like mek guns. Thought anti infantry, short range and same point cost with much lower damage potential.... but the delivery system is more mobile, has utility to fight in CC (especially with a cheap power stabba)... can stick with the rest of your army opposed to be overrun like Mek guns may? (If playing freebooters and looking for something to Combo the bonus. Having some shooting on every single unit seems important for this, one Infantry model from Some chaff unit could be easily killed by a single skorcha or a Kustom shoota from a nob or manz squad?

Umm you would spend 2CP to teleport some GROTS? Remember it's not units up to 20PL but unit up to 20PL. Each unit you put into teleport is 2CP(units inside transport don't count for PL of transport). Thus 2 trukks with nobs=4 CP, wagon full of grots=2CP, total=6CP.

Orks are hard pressed for CP's as it is. Tellyporting grots is not particulary efficient usage of CP's.

I was under impression teleport 20 PL limitation included passengers as well? Which was the logic of grots. You’re more or less teleporting an extra vehicle up front with a character, added benefit is Grot screen filling up seats? Always seemed to be an issue of Killy stuff getting it’s transported destroyed, usually in my deploymEnt zone.

To answer both Tneva and the scotsman.

I think he means the grots are in a transport that gets tellyported, say a battlewagon with 10 nobz and 10 grots. Because you can't even tellyport grots otherwise, can you? Gretchin can't be the target of strats unless specifically mentioned.

I also assume he means kombi-rokkits or at least kombiweapons in general, because otherwise it doesn't make much sense due to the lack of range combined with them dropping T2. Meaning they'd use the weapons at T3 if they're lucky..

the_scotsman wrote:
So, this was one of those arguments where a rule was unclear enough that one side could just keep yelling "I FEEL LIKE THIS SHOULD NOT WORK" loud enough to keep it "in debate" until we get a definite FAQ in 2 weeks. Gotcha. If you read the existing FAQ, it's pretty damn clear that a vehicle is still "destroyed" when you get out of it and before you remove it from the table - unless you're in the habit of claiming to your opponent that they're not allowed to use any kind of reactive stratagem unless they scream out that they're using it at the exact millisecond you declare something, there doesn't seem to be a ton of ground to stand on here. 40k is a board game. Nothing is truly "momentary" - "when a unit is targeted by a shooting attack" lasts from when the declaration is made until the dice begin to roll. "when a vehicle is destroyed" lasts from when the vehicle loses its final wound until the vehicle is removed from the board, as the existing FAQ ruling makes clear.

skifi, how are you using a kombi scorcha on a unit that is teleporting? Also, you need to kill a UNIT to get freebootas, not a model.

Can’t use it turn you drop in as 9” away, just reporting to not get shot to death t1.

I figure using your firing base you can whittle units down on T1, so that when you can use skorchas it might be an easy way to get a bonus in a future shooting phase? I figure having Nobs in trukk even with kff, gonna lose their trukks before they move if you don’t get t1. Porting them at least has their trukks die 9” away from enemies? (And your nearby boys can loot the truck?, that is if you jump 30 boys up or also port them in.)

Even spending 6 CP on porting or 8....
Doesn’t seem terrible with freebooters? If they are MSU you don’t benefit as much from some stratagems? If you’re running a brigade, seems like spending 6-8 on that is ok?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

PiñaColada wrote:
To answer both Tneva and the scotsman.

I think he means the grots are in a transport that gets tellyported, say a battlewagon with 10 nobz and 10 grots. Because you can't even tellyport grots otherwise, can you? Gretchin can't be the target of strats unless specifically mentioned.

I also assume he means kombi-rokkits or at least kombiweapons in general, because otherwise it doesn't make much sense due to the lack of range combined with them dropping T2. Meaning they'd use the weapons at T3 if they're lucky..

Yeah grots would be in a wagon with nobs or whatever. Just to get under the restriction and make sure grots get used as shield where needed... and don’t have to waste jump on them?

Taking one kombi rokkit isn’t bad with ammo runt especially if culture bonus is up already I think.

Kombi skorchas are more what I’m thinking tho. For whatever reason I thought you could teleport in t1, then shoot them t2. If you can’t port in t1 though :(

Wagon 8 PL
Grots 1PL
3 manz 6 pl (or characters)
Warboss 5 Pl?

All fit in 20 cap wagon to port in,


Like 10 nobs (14 PL) trukk (3) and weirdboy (3) would make another 20 PL combo?


If it’s just the transport PL that counts... omg

the_scotsman wrote:

 JeffVimes wrote:
What do you think would be the best way to run bikers? MSU of 3 to keep things cheap, or by large squad to be able to maximise the -1 to hit stratagem?

Go large, but IMO they're a minimally competitive unit at best. I think a large squad is the best way to run a mediocre unit. In small squads, I just wonder why I'm not just bringing a skrapjet, a deffcopta, or even a boomdakka for a couple points more.

Thanks, that what I thought as well. I like the model and it fits the theme of my list, so I will still run them nut I wanted to have an opinion on how to make sure they are not just lost points.