Thanks, I hadn't seen the 'nid faq entry. Another question -- if My blood axe open-topped transport full of blood axe tankbustas falls back, and doesn't shoot. But the embarked tankbustas DO shoot. Can the transport still charge? The way I'm reading it they can, and that seems awfully handy.
Emicrania wrote: 'Nids FAQ clarified that we couldn't advance twice, probably to slow down the genestealers missile.
Guys, the Nid FAQ only refers to Advancing twice during the SAME phase. The Evil Sunz stratagem takes place during the Shooting phase, which is a different phase from the Movement phase.
Tempted to try a 30 man Boyz squad (PK Nob) and 10 man Boyz (PK Nob) and Mob up strategies.
I reckon the Skarboyz or Ardboyz are going to be better but having to kill 20 models to lose the attack (coupled with dealing with backrange support) seems tough to handle.
Frozocrone wrote: Tempted to try a 30 man Boyz squad (PK Nob) and 10 man Boyz (PK Nob) and Mob up strategies.
I reckon the Skarboyz or Ardboyz are going to be better but having to kill 20 models to lose the attack (coupled with dealing with backrange support) seems tough to handle.
As long as they deep strike and are evil sun fine. 40 boyz in face without anything but overwatch is nasty. If they try to walk they gnt blasted
Emicrania wrote: 'Nids FAQ clarified that we couldn't advance twice, probably to slow down the genestealers missile.
Guys, the Nid FAQ only refers to Advancing twice during the SAME phase. The Evil Sunz stratagem takes place during the Shooting phase, which is a different phase from the Movement phase.
In that case, you would not be allowed to advance at all, since you may only advance during the movement phase.
Emicrania wrote: 'Nids FAQ clarified that we couldn't advance twice, probably to slow down the genestealers missile.
Guys, the Nid FAQ only refers to Advancing twice during the SAME phase. The Evil Sunz stratagem takes place during the Shooting phase, which is a different phase from the Movement phase.
In that case, you would not be allowed to advance at all, since you may only advance during the movement phase.
It says "[...] That unit can immediately make a move as if it were the Movement phase..." so it's probably the exact same as described in the nids FAQ. It's basically the movement phase
So, first playtest of orks has happened, myself and my friend both found great success with two different playstyles.
I ran a pair of Battalion detachments, 2.5K points, one battalion of Evil Sunz and one battalion of Freebootas.
Evil Sunz had one unit of 30 and one unit of 10 ork boyz, who combined and da jumped turn 1, then just one unit of 10 gretchin who stood in front to tank if I didnt get turn 1 and the boyz got shot. Then I had all the new buggies except the squigbuggy and boomdakka, deffkilla and 9 warbikes, and a Bonebreaka with nobz and a waaagh banner nob, deep striking.
Freebootas had 3 units of gretchin, one unit of 3 smasha guns, badrukk and the weirdboy with da jump, then a big unit of flash gits and a big unit of lootas. Also had a trukk full of tankbustas and a wazboom blastajet in the freeboota detachment because shooty unit.
I was up against guard with 60 infantry (brigade detachment), 4 lemans (one commander), 3 armored sentinels, deep striking scions with plasma, plus a pair of knight helverins in a super heavy aux (so they only got the weaker trait thing where you pick a negative).
I got second turn, avoided a bunch of damage to the boyz by using Grot shield - a whole Punisher Russ tank commander with rerolls to hit went straight into a unit of 10 gretchin. All his anti tank basically went into the wazbomb and killed it, but it took all the anti tank fire like a champ, all the buggies survived.
My turn, over 30 mobbed up boyz piled straight into the lines of the guardsmen with Warpath on, then attacked again just for good measure. I was careful to allocate the attacks to leave a couple units with 2-3 guys left, and morale helped sweep up an extra 8-10 models. I managed to tag a helverin and the tank commander who had rolled up a bit in the last pile in move as well, so no shooting for them. I blew away an armored sentinel with the Smasha guns just to trigger the Freeboota kultur (They don't benefit from the +1BS rule, but they still count as a Freeboota unit for the purposes of other models who do have the Kultur) so everything else in the detachment cracked away with 4+ to 2+ BS... blew away the second Helverin, got a leman to the last bracket and killed a sentinel with the snazzguns since it was the only thing in range.
Turn 2, my opponent pretty much just shot boyz and Freebootas since they'd popped out of their trukk. he got the boyz down to like 5 and I just let them run from morale. At this point the remaining guardsmen did not have the numbers to cover everything so they kept one undamaged leman and the helverin screened. The last sentinel ended up in front of the two tanks to try and keep the Bonebreaka away. Scions also dropped, taking out two buggies and finishing off the freebootas.
I dropped the bonebreaka, did the same smasha gun thing on the last sentinel, shot everything into the screened helverin and killed it, then used my last CP to Ramming Speed the bonebreaka into the last full hp russ, taking it down below half.
with most things gone or tied up, and nobz about to pop out of the bonebreaka and sweep the field, my opponent conceded. Evil Sunz quick threats are the absolute business, as id figured they would be.
My friend tried a list in a very different vein, with Goff boyz mobs, a morkanaut with a KFF, and a max mob of Killa Kanz running alongside the boyz. The combination of grot shield onto the killa kanz and Loot It whenever a kan died made those boyz super durable, and he also ended up winning albeit a bit more pyrrhically.
I would suggest if we have suggestions errata or FAQs we Spam the heck out of gw rules email now asxthis is the week they gather feedback and changes for the faq that comes out in 2-3 weeks. After that we are stuck with the codex as it is for at least may 2019 when the next major faq comes out. (Considering chapter approved is already printed and in thier teaser video)
What do we want to see changed within the guidelines of this codex?
Usually points are out on these FAQs but I’m going to address the stompa.
Kommando nob I want the big choppa option as the kommando upgrade sprue from fw has the option.
Goff warlord trait is just flat out worse then generic trait.
Mobile fortress doesn’t have the index faq yet...
Jidmah wrote: In that case, you would not be allowed to advance at all, since you may only advance during the movement phase.
AFAIK, Advancing during a different phase has always been possible when the rule specifies "as if it were the Movement phase". I play CSM / TS and Warptime allows us to do that. ETC (I think) published a rule CHANGE last year to forbid it, but it holds only for their tournaments.
My friend tried a list in a very different vein, with Goff boyz mobs, a morkanaut with a KFF, and a max mob of Killa Kanz running alongside the boyz. The combination of grot shield onto the killa kanz and Loot It whenever a kan died made those boyz super durable, and he also ended up winning albeit a bit more pyrrhically.
Can you use grot shield on killa kans or did same reason that prevents clan bonus prevent it?
Also in some thread there was suggested using headbang spell with cp to blow up de raider calculating odds as 5+ with reroll but can't find thread. Anyway spell is over t so t5 you need to roll 6. Even with reroll 30.5% odds
the_scotsman 766225 10218228 wrote: (They don't benefit from the +1BS rule, but they still count as a Freeboota unit for the purposes of other models who do have the Kultur)
Is this true? Is the Gretchin rule that they don't GET the kultur? Or that they get the kultur, but just don't BENEFIT from the kultur? And would "being able to spread freeboota +1 goodness" count as a benefit?
My friend tried a list in a very different vein, with Goff boyz mobs, a morkanaut with a KFF, and a max mob of Killa Kanz running alongside the boyz. The combination of grot shield onto the killa kanz and Loot It whenever a kan died made those boyz super durable, and he also ended up winning albeit a bit more pyrrhically.
Can you use grot shield on killa kans or did same reason that prevents clan bonus prevent it?
Also in some thread there was suggested using headbang spell with cp to blow up de raider calculating odds as 5+ with reroll but can't find thread. Anyway spell is over t so t5 you need to roll 6. Even with reroll 30.5% odds
Dont have the codex in front of me but I'm fairly sure it was identified that the beneficiary of the stratagem (the grot shielded unit) needs to be Ork Infantry, but the unit the wounds are passed off to just has to be Gretchin, it doesn't specify Gretchin Infantry. So to be clear he passed off anti infantry fire to the Kanz, which admittedly has the drawback of his kanz getting wounded as if they were T4, but they still had a nice 3+ save and as soon as one died, he used Loot It to make 30 of his boyz 5+ armor.
Again, since I didn't do this I can't say for certain whether he might have done it wrong and Grot Shields specified Gretchin Infantry, though checking 1d4chan's writeup it does say Ork Infantry and just Gretchin.
Iirc mek guns have clan tags, so you can make them freebooters and auto hit/kill something with opening salvo to have rest of army +1 to hit? Within 24” of course (Don’t think they get the bonus to hit themselves.. and if trakor kannons anyways... )
Question for y’all:
Hi friends, quick question thought some of ya more rules savvy players might know. I haven’t played in a while, so!
If I have a unit embarked in a wagon, I know I don’t get the benefit of mobile fortress, as they aren’t technically on the board. Similarly unit of gits in a wagon, wouldn’t get badrukk’s aura while both/either embarked...
If I have (an entire freebooter army) units of gits and bustas in transports, and anything with freebooter clan kills something within 24” of them while they are still embarked... do they get the +1 to hit or not as they aren’t technically on the board?
Thanks!
Now I’m pretty sure I won’t get the +1 as they aren’t on board but figured worth asking
the_scotsman 766225 10218228 wrote: (They don't benefit from the +1BS rule, but they still count as a Freeboota unit for the purposes of other models who do have the Kultur)
Is this true? Is the Gretchin rule that they don't GET the kultur? Or that they get the kultur, but just don't BENEFIT from the kultur? And would "being able to spread freeboota +1 goodness" count as a benefit?
They don#t get kultur but kultur uses key word freeboota that grots have. Think of it orks going "we aren't outdone by mere grots!"
the_scotsman 766225 10218228 wrote: (They don't benefit from the +1BS rule, but they still count as a Freeboota unit for the purposes of other models who do have the Kultur)
Is this true? Is the Gretchin rule that they don't GET the kultur? Or that they get the kultur, but just don't BENEFIT from the kultur? And would "being able to spread freeboota +1 goodness" count as a benefit?
They don't benefit from the Klan Culture rule, though they do have the <clan> tag.
This is how I read it as working:
I have a unit of Killa Kanz, and a unit of Flash Gitz, both with Freebootas as their <clan> tag. Since I am in a full freeboota detachment, the Flash Gitz gain the rule that says they get +1 to hit for the phase if another Freeboota unit within 24" destroys a unit. Since the Killa Kanz are a Freeboota unit, they trigger the rule in the Flash Gitz, but if the Flash Gitz were to destroy something, the Killa Kanz not having that rule would not gain a benefit.
There are plenty of rules that are dependent on another unit that does not share the same rule.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
skyfi wrote: Iirc mek guns have clan tags, so you can make them freebooters and auto hit/kill something with opening salvo to have rest of army +1 to hit? Within 24” of course (Don’t think they get the bonus to hit themselves.. and if trakor kannons anyways... )
Question for y’all:
Hi friends, quick question thought some of ya more rules savvy players might know. I haven’t played in a while, so!
If I have a unit embarked in a wagon, I know I don’t get the benefit of mobile fortress, as they aren’t technically on the board. Similarly unit of gits in a wagon, wouldn’t get badrukk’s aura while both/either embarked...
If I have (an entire freebooter army) units of gits and bustas in transports, and anything with freebooter clan kills something within 24” of them while they are still embarked... do they get the +1 to hit or not as they aren’t technically on the board?
Thanks!
Now I’m pretty sure I won’t get the +1 as they aren’t on board but figured worth asking
RAW, they would, because Open Topped is worded in such a way that any rules or modifiers applied to the transport apply to the occupants. Thats why battlewagons have to specify that the transport occupants don't benefit from mobile fortress (if that rule didnt exist, they would benefit from it).
My friend tried a list in a very different vein, with Goff boyz mobs, a morkanaut with a KFF, and a max mob of Killa Kanz running alongside the boyz. The combination of grot shield onto the killa kanz and Loot It whenever a kan died made those boyz super durable, and he also ended up winning albeit a bit more pyrrhically.
Can you use grot shield on killa kans or did same reason that prevents clan bonus prevent it?
Also in some thread there was suggested using headbang spell with cp to blow up de raider calculating odds as 5+ with reroll but can't find thread. Anyway spell is over t so t5 you need to roll 6. Even with reroll 30.5% odds
Dont have the codex in front of me but I'm fairly sure it was identified that the beneficiary of the stratagem (the grot shielded unit) needs to be Ork Infantry, but the unit the wounds are passed off to just has to be Gretchin, it doesn't specify Gretchin Infantry. So to be clear he passed off anti infantry fire to the Kanz, which admittedly has the drawback of his kanz getting wounded as if they were T4, but they still had a nice 3+ save and as soon as one died, he used Loot It to make 30 of his boyz 5+ armor.
Again, since I didn't do this I can't say for certain whether he might have done it wrong and Grot Shields specified Gretchin Infantry, though checking 1d4chan's writeup it does say Ork Infantry and just Gretchin.
But the save is on unit being protected and on 2+ grot is killed. If you were using kan as screen it's on behind units save and each wound saved by kan would be dead killa kan...lascannon hits boy, 6 save doesn#t help. If lascannon causes 6 wounds roll 6 dice. 1 and ork dies, 2+ and kan dies. That's obviously not good. Better if you can transfer wounds from kan to grots but can it used for kans like that?
Btw grot screen suffers fast vs multiwound weapons...
My friend tried a list in a very different vein, with Goff boyz mobs, a morkanaut with a KFF, and a max mob of Killa Kanz running alongside the boyz. The combination of grot shield onto the killa kanz and Loot It whenever a kan died made those boyz super durable, and he also ended up winning albeit a bit more pyrrhically.
Can you use grot shield on killa kans or did same reason that prevents clan bonus prevent it?
Also in some thread there was suggested using headbang spell with cp to blow up de raider calculating odds as 5+ with reroll but can't find thread. Anyway spell is over t so t5 you need to roll 6. Even with reroll 30.5% odds
Dont have the codex in front of me but I'm fairly sure it was identified that the beneficiary of the stratagem (the grot shielded unit) needs to be Ork Infantry, but the unit the wounds are passed off to just has to be Gretchin, it doesn't specify Gretchin Infantry. So to be clear he passed off anti infantry fire to the Kanz, which admittedly has the drawback of his kanz getting wounded as if they were T4, but they still had a nice 3+ save and as soon as one died, he used Loot It to make 30 of his boyz 5+ armor.
Again, since I didn't do this I can't say for certain whether he might have done it wrong and Grot Shields specified Gretchin Infantry, though checking 1d4chan's writeup it does say Ork Infantry and just Gretchin.
But the save is on unit being protected and on 2+ grot is killed. If you were using kan as screen it's on behind units save and each wound saved by kan would be dead killa kan...lascannon hits boy, 6 save doesn#t help. If lascannon causes 6 wounds roll 6 dice. 1 and ork dies, 2+ and kan dies. That's obviously not good. Better if you can transfer wounds from kan to grots but can it used for kans like that?
Btw grot screen suffers fast vs multiwound weapons...
ah, now I see where the confusion lies. Grot Screen says that when you LOSE A WOUND the gretchin unit LOSES THE WOUND instead on a 2+. I think the way my friend must have played it is when the unit TAKES A WOUND (ie, before the armor save) because he definitely said he was taking 3+ saves on the killa kanz. That was done wrong, and yeah, the strat is definitely no good on kanz.
the_scotsman 766225 10218228 wrote: (They don't benefit from the +1BS rule, but they still count as a Freeboota unit for the purposes of other models who do have the Kultur)
Is this true? Is the Gretchin rule that they don't GET the kultur? Or that they get the kultur, but just don't BENEFIT from the kultur? And would "being able to spread freeboota +1 goodness" count as a benefit?
They don't benefit from the Klan Culture rule, though they do have the <clan> tag.
This is how I read it as working:
I have a unit of Killa Kanz, and a unit of Flash Gitz, both with Freebootas as their <clan> tag. Since I am in a full freeboota detachment, the Flash Gitz gain the rule that says they get +1 to hit for the phase if another Freeboota unit within 24" destroys a unit. Since the Killa Kanz are a Freeboota unit, they trigger the rule in the Flash Gitz, but if the Flash Gitz were to destroy something, the Killa Kanz not having that rule would not gain a benefit.
There are plenty of rules that are dependent on another unit that does not share the same rule.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
skyfi wrote: Iirc mek guns have clan tags, so you can make them freebooters and auto hit/kill something with opening salvo to have rest of army +1 to hit? Within 24” of course (Don’t think they get the bonus to hit themselves.. and if trakor kannons anyways... )
Question for y’all:
Hi friends, quick question thought some of ya more rules savvy players might know. I haven’t played in a while, so!
If I have a unit embarked in a wagon, I know I don’t get the benefit of mobile fortress, as they aren’t technically on the board. Similarly unit of gits in a wagon, wouldn’t get badrukk’s aura while both/either embarked...
If I have (an entire freebooter army) units of gits and bustas in transports, and anything with freebooter clan kills something within 24” of them while they are still embarked... do they get the +1 to hit or not as they aren’t technically on the board?
Thanks!
Now I’m pretty sure I won’t get the +1 as they aren’t on board but figured worth asking
RAW, they would, because Open Topped is worded in such a way that any rules or modifiers applied to the transport apply to the occupants. Thats why battlewagons have to specify that the transport occupants don't benefit from mobile fortress (if that rule didnt exist, they would benefit from it).
HUH??? I was really hoping I would get to use the +1 to hit while my pirates happily do drive by’s in boats... I was thinking I wouldn’t because of FAQ about the BW. I’m always so lost with the legal rules jargon when I come back from a break.
I just don’t wanna list build based on bad understanding of rules, but would like to make a way to make my full mechanized freebooters to work.
Was thinking trakror Cannons center of my deployment try and kill something first first, if not then shoot all trucks wagons and MSU trukk boys until something dies to trigger +1 to hit, then shoot with Flash gitz or tank bustas?
Im also having trouble rationalizing taking a waaagh banner nob with freebooters. I feel like it’s great if you run lots of Klaws, so you have +2 to hit with klaws if needed but I feel a lot will be swinging on 2+ in melee from just kulture, before applying the banner.. so maybe a waste? Maybe useful for fighting against negative modifiers to hit I suppose.
The freebooter morale banner seems neat for army wide morale save if you’re playing a MSU army? Not sure if I could take it and the fancy Klaw as well, maybe have to spend CP to take more than one iirc
the_scotsman wrote: RAW, they would, because Open Topped is worded in such a way that any rules or modifiers applied to the transport apply to the occupants. Thats why battlewagons have to specify that the transport occupants don't benefit from mobile fortress (if that rule didnt exist, they would benefit from it).
hmm...just reading the battlewagon datasheet now, and I'm not actually seeing anything specifying that occupants don't benefit from Mobile Fortress...
Shinzra wrote: People saying Orks will be low tier baffles me, every review available including front line gaming talks regarding the codex are all saying it will be a high/top tier book and overall the book is outstanding as a complete book.
Many just like to complain for the sake of it, you have a brand new dex, with some of the best internal balance shown in a codex, options galore, you can run any form of list and still do well.
Playtest the book first and get some games under your belts before going doom and gloom
Welcome to the internet, especially DakkaDakka when it comes to complaining first and reading later lol.
the_scotsman wrote: RAW, they would, because Open Topped is worded in such a way that any rules or modifiers applied to the transport apply to the occupants. Thats why battlewagons have to specify that the transport occupants don't benefit from mobile fortress (if that rule didnt exist, they would benefit from it).
hmm...just reading the battlewagon datasheet now, and I'm not actually seeing anything specifying that occupants don't benefit from Mobile Fortress...
the_scotsman wrote: RAW, they would, because Open Topped is worded in such a way that any rules or modifiers applied to the transport apply to the occupants. Thats why battlewagons have to specify that the transport occupants don't benefit from mobile fortress (if that rule didnt exist, they would benefit from it).
hmm...just reading the battlewagon datasheet now, and I'm not actually seeing anything specifying that occupants don't benefit from Mobile Fortress...
There was a FAQ for the index specifying that they don't. Considering how the rule didn't change at all, it's a safe bet that the FAQ will make a return for the codex. Then again, there is a compelling argument for why this is the case, since the mobile fortress is neither a modifier nor a restriction.
So I'm inclined to say that freebootas would indeed get +1 to hit from their clan trait, since it's without doubt a modifier, and those are conferred from open topped transports to their passengers.
although, yeah, that is a good point Jidmah...ignoring the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons, is indeed not a restriction or a modifier...bugger.
flandarz wrote: I'd probably take the Codex Kommandos over the Index ones. Even without Burnas, TBBs, Dakkax3, and bonus to Wound are tough to pass up.
Yea, 40 points for a melta bomber in cover with 4 ablative wounds? Yes please.
For example, you have a meganob with 3 wounds. He's getting shot with a lazcannon.
First he's hit. Now he can use a strategem.
Than he's wounded.
Than he rolls 5+ armor.
Than a lazcannon rolls, say, 4 damage.
Meganob rolls 2+for every point of damage, getting, say, one 1.
He suffers a wound and 3 grots get killed.
So, this strategem has odd mechanics. Means that if you, for example, decide to use grot shields for regular boyz, multi-damage weapons have a potential of dealing much more harm than they'd usually do.
This same results for a lazcannon would have killed 3 grots along with the boy.
ah, now I see where the confusion lies. Grot Screen says that when you LOSE A WOUND the gretchin unit LOSES THE WOUND instead on a 2+. I think the way my friend must have played it is when the unit TAKES A WOUND (ie, before the armor save) because he definitely said he was taking 3+ saves on the killa kanz. That was done wrong, and yeah, the strat is definitely no good on kanz.
Actually it\s worse than that. Model from screen is SLAIN. Now albeit it's moot point as killa kan can neither be protected(all gretchin unit cannot be protected) nor be screening(needs to be infantry) but if you WERE able to protect with kans...Well for every wound one killa kan, whether it has 1 or 100 wounds, would be SLAIN. So lascannon hits ork boy, causes wound, d6 results in 6 wounds. You roll 6 dice, all are 2+ so 6 killa kans would be killed...
But as that isn't possible(likely good. More likely this would end up hurting than being benefit to use kans as screen) there's that. However something to keep in mind is that multi wound weapons becomes rather annoying. Imagine the knight gatling cannon and let's say it causes 8 hits that wound. Without grot screen that would be 8 boyz dead. With grot screen you would roll 2 dice for 8 models. If you roll double 1...Well one ork suffers 2 wounds and dies very messily. If you roll 2 2+'s you lose 2 gretchin. If you roll 1 and 2+ you lose ork AND gretchin...
Lascannon also becomes surprisingly effective grot killer.
That sounds right, if the wording is loses a wound (i cant recall right now). Its similar to FNP mechanics where you have to roll a dice for every lost wound, not the attack
koooaei wrote: I think the grot shield strategem works this way.
For example, you have a meganob with 3 wounds. He's getting shot with a lazcannon.
First he's hit. Now he can use a strategem.
Than he's wounded.
Than he rolls 5+ armor.
Than a lazcannon rolls, say, 4 damage.
Meganob rolls 2+for every point of damage, getting, say, one 1.
He suffers a wound and 3 grots get killed.
So, this strategem has odd mechanics. Means that if you, for example, decide to use grot shields for regular boyz, multi-damage weapons have a potential of dealing much more harm than they'd usually do.
This same results for a lazcannon would have killed 3 grots along with the boy.
Yep 100% correct. Wonder if GW intended for that or will they FAQ for it to be different. As it is you can end up in situation where not only you lose models you were protecting(say lootas) with almost 1=1 speed AND lose extra grots for fun...
Vineheart01 wrote: Difference being those 3 grots are worth a LOT less than that MANz anyway. I'd gladly lose the entire 10blob of grots than a manz.
Yup, each of those dead grots is worth far less than a wound on a MANz, Plus its not like you HAVE to put a wound on the grot even if you use the stratagem. Cant you opt to just eat the attack if you want?
Yes MAN are ones that are fairly safe from oddities but for example lootas you can end up both loota AND 1+ grots with fairly high frequency when before you would have lost just loota(or ork boy or whatever 1W model you are protecting) ie grot screen is nothing but disadvantage for you. That's bit weird.
(oh and another weird scenario though as grot needs to be within 6" of unit protecting but it's possible for grots to protect unit while being behind unit shooting That would be lulz moment)
The Grot Shield stratagem could be better but I think it's fine, just have to be mindful about which of your units you actually want to screen against different weapons. Losing multiple 'shield models' to multi-damage weapons is exactly how things like Tau drones should work, in my mind.
xlDuke wrote: The Grot Shield stratagem could be better but I think it's fine, just have to be mindful about which of your units you actually want to screen against different weapons. Losing multiple 'shield models' to multi-damage weapons is exactly how things like Tau drones should work, in my mind.
Not saying it's bad strategem. Just a) something worth keeping in mind so you don't end up hurting yourself needlessly(it's not automatically good idea) b) don't cheat by using it like inv save rather than like FNP so that D2 weapon would only roll one 2+ etc. Easy mistake to make.
koooaei wrote: I think the grot shield strategem works this way.
For example, you have a meganob with 3 wounds. He's getting shot with a lazcannon.
First he's hit. Now he can use a strategem.
Than he's wounded.
Than he rolls 5+ armor.
Than a lazcannon rolls, say, 4 damage.
Meganob rolls 2+for every point of damage, getting, say, one 1.
He suffers a wound and 3 grots get killed.
So, this strategem has odd mechanics. Means that if you, for example, decide to use grot shields for regular boyz, multi-damage weapons have a potential of dealing much more harm than they'd usually do.
This same results for a lazcannon would have killed 3 grots along with the boy.
Yep 100% correct. Wonder if GW intended for that or will they FAQ for it to be different. As it is you can end up in situation where not only you lose models you were protecting(say lootas) with almost 1=1 speed AND lose extra grots for fun...
I hate to be a pedant about this, but you'd need your lootas to be getting shot with Damage 6 weapons to be losing them at 1:1 speed....if my opponent is leveling macro-cannons at my lootas, I won't bother with the grot shields...
Sure, it's not as good if you're getting shot with melta or plasma, but for protecting lootas/flashgitz/whatever against bolter fire, it's awesome.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I am 99.% certain that unless GW changes it in an FAQ, a Freebootas unit inside an open topped transport does benefit from the Kultur if the unit triggering it is within range of the transport.
"Open Topped: Models embarked on this model can attack in their shooting phase.....when they do so, any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers."
In my Codex: Harlequins, a beneficial rule (Rising Crescendo) is specifically called out as applying to the passengers, allowing them to shoot if the transport fell back.
As someone who's playing a lot of Eldar I'm sort of tempted to buy & try a Dakkajet. It's a cool model with real potential for character sniping. Hitting on 5+, 4+ because of all the dakka. Most likely throw the Long, uncontrolled burst stratagem on it as well to hit on 3+.
18 S6 AP-1 D1 shots hitting on 3+ seems pretty good for trying to delete those flying farseers and the like. Problem is that it might be cutting it a bit too close for comfort. Those guys are T4 W6 with a 4++.
18 shots, hitting on 3's are 12 hits, plus 2 more from dakkadakkadakka. 14 hits wounding on 3's nets you 9.25 wounds that are saved on a 4+ for a little more than 4.5 unsaved wounds. Meaning that smug bastard will most likely live through it. So unless you bank on getting lucky, do we have any real alternatives for "medium toughness" character sniping?
Edit: If you're a gambler the wazbom blastajet might get the job done. Especially with the tellyport mega-blastas I guess
geargutz wrote: also, be carefull about how much you put in reserves. you need half your PL on the board as well as half you amount of units on the board..
Nope. After fall FAQPL's have nothing to do with reserves. Instead it's now on points.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rismonite wrote: Should my Boomdakka Snazzwagon be Bad Moonz or Blood Axes :/
Army is going to be Planes Buggies Trukkbustas and like one squad of Bikes.
I'm thinking Bad Moon tankbustas and maybe make some of the quality dakka buggies and planes Deffskullz
Is it possible to make a list such that Bad Moon Tankbustas deploy inside Blood Axe or Deffskull Trukkz?
It's not got that many shots except in grenade range for bad moon to be really worth it and then you are in h2h range so blood axes could be better. One of the few things where blood axe is actually useful choise.
As for last question no. We aren't as smart as IG.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
koooaei wrote: I'm puting my money on the blob killing every single dread on overwatch one by one. Half the squad would certainly die in the process though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Has anyone tried a gunwagon and our new shooty biggies yet?
Foot slogging it wouldn't change much though except give him even more time to shoot at them so...Not sure how foot slogging is solution to the 10 hellblasters. Better solution would likely be mek gun spam yourself until they go down to level dreadnought can survive overwatch. As they hit on 6's it's not THAT many. 10 shooting is 20 shots. 30.5% hit chance with azrael and S8=4 wounds. D3 with strategem(btw was that for one shooting or for one phase? If one shooting 2nd dread would be safe)=12. So 4 overkill.
So you would need to kill 4+ to not die on average. 5 for safety.
First of all, 10 hellblasters with Azrael...on overwatch? Are you expecting him to overcharge the plasma?
You're already giving a 3% chance times the number of shots to slay a hellblaster. If you are popping the weapons of the dark age strat - again, on overwatch, for 1 CP, you can only do that once per turn.
If and only if they pop all the above, they can deal 9 wounds in overwatch on average. After that, the wounds drop by 50% from losing wotda
That's a 400 point unit btw that becomes neutralized by CC against a dread, except for Azrael.
xlDuke wrote: The Grot Shield stratagem could be better but I think it's fine, just have to be mindful about which of your units you actually want to screen against different weapons. Losing multiple 'shield models' to multi-damage weapons is exactly how things like Tau drones should work, in my mind.
Not saying it's bad strategem. Just a) something worth keeping in mind so you don't end up hurting yourself needlessly(it's not automatically good idea) b) don't cheat by using it like inv save rather than like FNP so that D2 weapon would only roll one 2+ etc. Easy mistake to make.
Indeed. I've not got my codex yet but I've got the datacards and without paying much attention the first time I read the rule I interpreted it wrongly, so I'm glad that it was brought up in here.
Grot shield strat could EASILY be total trash
*glares at Killteam version*
Unrelated: how are people's views on our fliers? I havnt touched mine in so long they have a layer of dust on them. Bad Moon Dakkajets feel pretty decent on paper for 148pts (6 guns)
Burna Bomma other than Skorcha Missiles feels pretty good
Blitza Bomma im on the fence with
Absolutely no opinion on Wazbom as i never flew it before.
So how are the freebooters among us planning on making the most use of our klan kulture? It’s not the strongest, but getting +1 to hit for everyone within 24”... nothing to shake a stick at right?
Can keep our shooters protected in transports and huddle around a kff mek. Hoping for small units/mek guns to get killls before other shooters fire?
2 units of 10 gits looting, then mobbin up... 2+ In cover!! Or get back in a wagon.. use more Dakka on this unit.. 60 shots hitting on on 4’s; or 3’s if klan kulture is in effect.. and exploding dice on 5+! if they managed to shoot something then assault without counting as have moved the turn... what are they like 3A base? 2+ WS and s5? By far not the most Effecient use of points but it seems proppa flashy and orky
20 mobbed up gits with more Dakka shoot something... they roll a 6 for gun crazy show off.... then shoot again, do they still get more Dakka for this bonus shooting? I can’t recall but I think after the bonus shooting is done, they roll gun crazy show off again? Maybe I’m remembering wrong. Wanna say with index I had a game where I got to shoot 3x in one turn with my flash gits (rare I know, planets aligned or something )
First of all, 10 hellblasters with Azrael...on overwatch? Are you expecting him to overcharge the plasma?
With dreadnought coming up, rerolling any 1's and averaging dead dreadnought with spare so 3 charging dreadnoughts of which first one would likely end up dead and others have decent shot as well...Yeah. After all if they get into combat that's dead hellblasters. Risk is better than certain death that getting 3 dreadnoughts in your face would be. If DA player ends up in situation where 3 dreadnoughts deep strike and assault them he's got nothing to lose.
You're already giving a 3% chance times the number of shots to slay a hellblaster. If you are popping the weapons of the dark age strat - again, on overwatch, for 1 CP, you can only do that once per turn.
If and only if they pop all the above, they can deal 9 wounds in overwatch on average. After that, the wounds drop by 50% from losing wotda
That's a 400 point unit btw that becomes neutralized by CC against a dread, except for Azrael.
100% worth pursuing that strategy.
30.5% hit chance with overwatch and Azrael, 3+ to wound, 3 damage=4 wounding hits=12 damage=8 more than dreadnought has. Without dark age 8 wounds in average so riskier. Either way that's risking 3 dreadnoughts dying all right away to overwatch while 10 evil sun boyz in first would accomplish same thing with just 4 dead boy. Wee! No point trying charge with just dreadnoughts.
I think the Freebooters Kultur is really strong. You dont have to use a Flashgit unit to generate that plus 1, you other stuff so you can maximise that Flash git rounds, Kaptins are always on a +1, and with the Kultur ability, they are on +2. That's Kaptins hitting on 2's, re-rolling 1's for Badrukk. The whole unit then generating more attacks on 5's and 6's is just ludicrous amounts of Dakka.
Vineheart01 wrote: i thought Freebootas DID say the unit that killed another unit had to be a freeboota?
It says it has to be a "unit with this kulture". Which I assume is every Ork in the army, so boyz with shootas, etc. Just minus the Mek Guns and Gretchen it seems.
I know there is such a thing as “too much of a good thing” which has me thinking again the waaagh banner maybe overkill with freebooters. Do we really need to pay for that? I’ve had the banner in for a while and gotten used to it but seeming like now he may not needed as much. Maybe if you have a large blob of manz or PK’s in general to help out. Idk.
Having mek guns, especially traktor kannons... just murder stuff each turn first so your other stuff gets a bonus... even having truck shoot first and kill last model from unit. Boom +1 to rest of army because a dumb trukk killed someone... figure having MSU is great with pirates and with the relic flag also... seems like ripe for MSU approach, long as you have a big fat unit or two still to use more Dakka or other foot stratagems on?
Figure having kannons or whatever mid field to project that 24” bubble to as much as board will be handy! All in all pretty excited about the freebooters, we actually have rules outside of just flash gits !! & they seem pretty decent.
Vineheart01 wrote: i thought Freebootas DID say the unit that killed another unit had to be a freeboota?
It says it has to be a "unit with this kulture". Which I assume is every Ork in the army, so boyz with shootas, etc. Just minus the Mek Guns and Gretchen it seems.
Right, so anything in army will be freebooter If ya pick that klan. Only the grots won’t have clan or benefit from the kulture. Mek guns I think, and Killa Kans are mixed units I think, and will have clan tag, so if they kill something they count as a freeboota to buff other units . But it’s not a two way street I think. If a freeboota unit killed something, mek guns and kans wouldn’t get +1 to hit because grots don’t get benefit of klan cultures (even though as a mixed unit they are a part of that culture, being a Grot prevents them from using its kulture abilty... I think :p
skyfi wrote: So how are the freebooters among us planning on making the most use of our klan kulture? It’s not the strongest, but getting +1 to hit for everyone within 24”... nothing to shake a stick at right?
Can keep our shooters protected in transports and huddle around a kff mek. Hoping for small units/mek guns to get killls before other shooters fire?
2 units of 10 gits looting, then mobbin up... 2+ In cover!! Or get back in a wagon.. use more Dakka on this unit.. 60 shots hitting on on 4’s; or 3’s if klan kulture is in effect.. and exploding dice on 5+! if they managed to shoot something then assault without counting as have moved the turn... what are they like 3A base? 2+ WS and s5? By far not the most Effecient use of points but it seems proppa flashy and orky
20 mobbed up gits with more Dakka shoot something... they roll a 6 for gun crazy show off.... then shoot again, do they still get more Dakka for this bonus shooting? I can’t recall but I think after the bonus shooting is done, they roll gun crazy show off again? Maybe I’m remembering wrong. Wanna say with index I had a game where I got to shoot 3x in one turn with my flash gits (rare I know, planets aligned or something )
My army has been fluffed as FreeBootas for a while, and I'm very excited about the crunch that we now have to back it up. My plan is to split my force into combo-generators vs combo-users. The generators are going to be a Burna Bomma, boosta blasta, and a trike (and maaaaybe a supa-skorcha big trakk?). They will be MSU hunters, able to reliably obliterate a chaff/screen unit, or even a small firing line. The combo-users are gonna be shoota boyz, bikes, flash gitz, lootas, SAG mek, tankbustas, and maaaaaybe a gork/morkanaut. If I can trigger the +1 to hit T1 shooting, I think the resulting damage boost will be enough to snowball through the rest of the fight.
It's all still hypothetical, but it'll be a blast to try.
skyfi wrote: Right, so anything in army will be freebooter If ya pick that klan. Only the grots won’t have clan or benefit from the kulture. Mek guns I think, and Killa Kans are mixed units I think, and will have clan tag, so if they kill something they count as a freeboota to buff other units . But it’s not a two way street I think. If a freeboota unit killed something, mek guns and kans wouldn’t get +1 to hit because grots don’t get benefit of klan cultures (even though as a mixed unit they are a part of that culture, being a Grot prevents them from using its kulture abilty... I think :p
Grot thing just prevents from BENEFITTING. But they still have it. There's no mention anywhere they don't HAVE it. Only that they don't BENEFIT from it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: BTW at least pre codex there was some ideas with more dakka strategem and idea that it would somehow with units that have +X to hit more shots from say 3+(with +2 to hit). Doesn't work as the strategem indeed says unmodified 5 or 6. Not sure was this already picked up.
Yeah Grots still have the kulture because theres a handful of other things that wouldnt work on them otherwise.
Practically everything is <clan> tagged for the effect. If they didnt even have the tag they couldnt benefit from that non-kulture ability.
So it turns out Tankbusta nobz can't have power klaws anymore.
Well gak, looks like I'm going to have to maim one of my models just because the tankbusta kit doesn't have a power klaw in there
People need to stop equating klans and kulturs. <CLAN> is a pick-your-faction keyword that, to my knowledge, every unit in the Ork codex has (with a few being locked in). Kulturs are special rules that apply to models with a certain choice of faction under certain conditions, of which one is "not being a unit composed entirely of grots".
Vermine wrote: Hey Guys, Can you purposefully Crash a Burna Bomber for that sweet 6'' 3 Mortal Wounds ?
(Lets say by finishing its course on a unit)
Nope. It's more like a defense mechanism. Park the bommer near the core of the enemy army and keep pointing out how many mortal wounds it will deal when destroyed and how you can re-roll that 4+ with CP to make sure it explodes. Re-rollable 2++ is nothing compared to that
Automatically Appended Next Post: Random thoughts: You can have quad-KMB dread for 91 points now.
I think you could. Turn 1 fly it right into the corner somewhere where it's near a unit and where a 90 degree turn +20" can't land on the board. It should crash and burn in this example.
Not super tactics related but this is where a lot of the discussion is....
Bonebreakers are obviously great, but does anyone have good alternatives/conversion ideas for deff rollas? I have 4 BWs but no deff rollas and dont feel like shelling out $20 per. Any thoughts?
Also any alternatives for mek gunz besides the 1+1=4 conversion?
lord_blackfang wrote: People need to stop equating klans and kulturs. <CLAN> is a pick-your-faction keyword that, to my knowledge, every unit in the Ork codex has (with a few being locked in). Kulturs are special rules that apply to models with a certain choice of faction under certain conditions, of which one is "not being a unit composed entirely of grots".
The rule you said means cannot BENEFIT. Quote text that says gretchins don't HAVE it. The rule you quote says they don't BENEFIT. Not...one...word...about...not...having...it.
Billagio wrote: Not super tactics related but this is where a lot of the discussion is....
Bonebreakers are obviously great, but does anyone have good alternatives/conversion ideas for deff rollas? I have 4 BWs but no deff rollas and dont feel like shelling out $20 per. Any thoughts?
Also any alternatives for mek gunz besides the 1+1=4 conversion?
Mek Gun: I mounted the Big Gunz that came with the battlewagon kit up on various custom built mountings. Originally ran them as significantly larger than they should be Big Gunz, but swapped them to the larger Mek Gunz when those came out. I just used random leftover vehicle panels, bits of terrain, etc.
Deffrolla: Well, if you happen to play Genestealer Cult, just buy some extra Goliath Trucks and the whole dozer blade is a separate piece. If you don't play GSC a Goliath would probably make an excellent proxy for a Trukk or one of the new buggies. I'd definitely buy a flamethrower/autocannon Goliath trukk as a Kustom Boosta Blasta for example.
Billagio wrote: Not super tactics related but this is where a lot of the discussion is....
Bonebreakers are obviously great, but does anyone have good alternatives/conversion ideas for deff rollas? I have 4 BWs but no deff rollas and dont feel like shelling out $20 per. Any thoughts?
Also any alternatives for mek gunz besides the 1+1=4 conversion?
Would suggest scratch building rollas out of junk/plastic. Should be a relatively easy build, plus they could al be unique as Orks should be imho
Billagio wrote: Not super tactics related but this is where a lot of the discussion is....
Bonebreakers are obviously great, but does anyone have good alternatives/conversion ideas for deff rollas? I have 4 BWs but no deff rollas and dont feel like shelling out $20 per. Any thoughts?
Also any alternatives for mek gunz besides the 1+1=4 conversion?
Would suggest scratch building rollas out of junk/plastic. Should be a relatively easy build, plus they could al be unique as Orks should be imho
Yeah I was thinking that, just dont really have much experience scratch building so im not sure how to go about it. Plasticard?
Billagio wrote: Not super tactics related but this is where a lot of the discussion is....
Bonebreakers are obviously great, but does anyone have good alternatives/conversion ideas for deff rollas? I have 4 BWs but no deff rollas and dont feel like shelling out $20 per. Any thoughts?
Also any alternatives for mek gunz besides the 1+1=4 conversion?
Mek Gun: I mounted the Big Gunz that came with the battlewagon kit up on various custom built mountings. Originally ran them as significantly larger than they should be Big Gunz, but swapped them to the larger Mek Gunz when those came out. I just used random leftover vehicle panels, bits of terrain, etc.
Deffrolla: Well, if you happen to play Genestealer Cult, just buy some extra Goliath Trucks and the whole dozer blade is a separate piece. If you don't play GSC a Goliath would probably make an excellent proxy for a Trukk or one of the new buggies. I'd definitely buy a flamethrower/autocannon Goliath trukk as a Kustom Boosta Blasta for example.
Hmmm, the Goliath idea doesnt sound too bad. Get a trukk and deff rolla out of it.
lord_blackfang wrote: People need to stop equating klans and kulturs. <CLAN> is a pick-your-faction keyword that, to my knowledge, every unit in the Ork codex has (with a few being locked in). Kulturs are special rules that apply to models with a certain choice of faction under certain conditions, of which one is "not being a unit composed entirely of grots".
The rule you said means cannot BENEFIT. Quote text that says gretchins don't HAVE it. The rule you quote says they don't BENEFIT. Not...one...word...about...not...having...it.
As I see it this is correct - but expect it will be FAQed.
Eh - actually on re-reading strictly speaking no because its not an "Ork" unit, so no Kulture.
I expect it will be clarified in FAQ anyway.
Actually re- re-reading it, they are an Ork unit. So they do.
lord_blackfang wrote: People need to stop equating klans and kulturs. <CLAN> is a pick-your-faction keyword that, to my knowledge, every unit in the Ork codex has (with a few being locked in). Kulturs are special rules that apply to models with a certain choice of faction under certain conditions, of which one is "not being a unit composed entirely of grots".
The rule you said means cannot BENEFIT. Quote text that says gretchins don't HAVE it. The rule you quote says they don't BENEFIT. Not...one...word...about...not...having...it.
Can you explain the functional difference between what I said and what you said?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So it turns out Tankbusta nobz can't have power klaws anymore.
Well gak, looks like I'm going to have to maim one of my models just because the tankbusta kit doesn't have a power klaw in there
We need to sticky a pic of the chart on the front of this topic so this can stop being discussed. You can use index options if there is a discrepancy.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So it turns out Tankbusta nobz can't have power klaws anymore.
Well gak, looks like I'm going to have to maim one of my models just because the tankbusta kit doesn't have a power klaw in there
We need to sticky a pic of the chart on the front of this topic so this can stop being discussed. You can use index options if there is a discrepancy.
Not universally. The ETC competitive scene in Europe does not allow Index datasheets in any capacity, nor Forgeworld for that matter. And it's very likely only a matter of months before official GW policy follows suit and legacy options are moved to open play only, like they were in AoS.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So it turns out Tankbusta nobz can't have power klaws anymore.
Well gak, looks like I'm going to have to maim one of my models just because the tankbusta kit doesn't have a power klaw in there
We need to sticky a pic of the chart on the front of this topic so this can stop being discussed. You can use index options if there is a discrepancy.
Not universally. The ETC competitive scene in Europe does not allow Index datasheets in any capacity, nor Forgeworld for that matter. And it's very likely only a matter of months before official GW policy follows suit and legacy options are moved to open play only, like they were in AoS.
Play groups can choose to make up and enforce whatever rules they want. Gw has stated that for match play you can use wargear options for a entry if a discrepancy exists between the index and codex via the chart.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So it turns out Tankbusta nobz can't have power klaws anymore.
Well gak, looks like I'm going to have to maim one of my models just because the tankbusta kit doesn't have a power klaw in there
We need to sticky a pic of the chart on the front of this topic so this can stop being discussed. You can use index options if there is a discrepancy.
I'm not buying another book that may become obsolete soon just because GW is still butthurt over chapterhouse.
There is no reason why tankbusta nobs can't take power klaws like every other nob other than GW's newfound hatred against kitbashes.
Especially when we are talking about an army that's supposed to favor kitbashing more than the others.
Billagio wrote: Not super tactics related but this is where a lot of the discussion is....
Bonebreakers are obviously great, but does anyone have good alternatives/conversion ideas for deff rollas? I have 4 BWs but no deff rollas and dont feel like shelling out $20 per. Any thoughts?
Also any alternatives for mek gunz besides the 1+1=4 conversion?
I was personally thinking of buying a new BW and use a toilet paper roll (sans paper of course) and stick wooden spikes on them normally used for food. After painting it should look alright but I'm personally not sure if they might be too big versus the official rolla.
Billagio wrote: Not super tactics related but this is where a lot of the discussion is....
Bonebreakers are obviously great, but does anyone have good alternatives/conversion ideas for deff rollas? I have 4 BWs but no deff rollas and dont feel like shelling out $20 per. Any thoughts?
Also any alternatives for mek gunz besides the 1+1=4 conversion?
I was personally thinking of buying a new BW and use a toilet paper roll (sans paper of course) and stick wooden spikes on them normally used for food. After painting it should look alright but I'm personally not sure if they might be too big versus the official rolla.
I think that might be too big tbh, but good idea. Let me know if it works for you!
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So it turns out Tankbusta nobz can't have power klaws anymore.
Well gak, looks like I'm going to have to maim one of my models just because the tankbusta kit doesn't have a power klaw in there
We need to sticky a pic of the chart on the front of this topic so this can stop being discussed. You can use index options if there is a discrepancy.
Not universally. The ETC competitive scene in Europe does not allow Index datasheets in any capacity, nor Forgeworld for that matter. And it's very likely only a matter of months before official GW policy follows suit and legacy options are moved to open play only, like they were in AoS.
Play groups can choose to make up and enforce whatever rules they want. Gw has stated that for match play you can use wargear options for a entry if a discrepancy exists between the index and codex via the chart.
Thing is if people somebody with plays say "no" to index rules then what GW says is pretty irrelevant. Either you don't take index options or you won't have game. So having GW doing the right thing from the get-go and have stuff not dropped from codex in the first place would have been preferable.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So it turns out Tankbusta nobz can't have power klaws anymore.
Well gak, looks like I'm going to have to maim one of my models just because the tankbusta kit doesn't have a power klaw in there
We need to sticky a pic of the chart on the front of this topic so this can stop being discussed. You can use index options if there is a discrepancy.
I'm not buying another book that may become obsolete soon just because GW is still butthurt over chapterhouse.
There is no reason why tankbusta nobs can't take power klaws like every other nob other than GW's newfound hatred against kitbashes.
Especially when we are talking about an army that's supposed to favor kitbashing more than the others.
I’m just telling you how it is. You wanna put extra stuff on your nob, fine it says you can in your index. I’m not gonna tolerate people complaining bout limitations because they don’t want to acknowledge the index.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So it turns out Tankbusta nobz can't have power klaws anymore.
Well gak, looks like I'm going to have to maim one of my models just because the tankbusta kit doesn't have a power klaw in there
We need to sticky a pic of the chart on the front of this topic so this can stop being discussed. You can use index options if there is a discrepancy.
I'm not buying another book that may become obsolete soon just because GW is still butthurt over chapterhouse.
There is no reason why tankbusta nobs can't take power klaws like every other nob other than GW's newfound hatred against kitbashes.
Especially when we are talking about an army that's supposed to favor kitbashing more than the others.
I’m just telling you how it is. You wanna put extra stuff on your nob, fine it says you can in your index. I’m not gonna tolerate people complaining bout limitations because they don’t want to acknowledge the index.
Thing is index is NOT an option for everybody. Just because you can take from index doesn't mean he can.
lord_blackfang wrote: People need to stop equating klans and kulturs. <CLAN> is a pick-your-faction keyword that, to my knowledge, every unit in the Ork codex has (with a few being locked in). Kulturs are special rules that apply to models with a certain choice of faction under certain conditions, of which one is "not being a unit composed entirely of grots".
The rule you said means cannot BENEFIT. Quote text that says gretchins don't HAVE it. The rule you quote says they don't BENEFIT. Not...one...word...about...not...having...it.
Can you explain the functional difference between what I said and what you said?
Not being able to benefit means they can have it and allow the rest of the detachment use the kulture.
Not having it at all means that you run afoul of the following
If your army is Battle-forged, all <CLAN>
units in ORK Detachments (excluding those
in Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachments) gain
a Clan Kultur, so long as every unit in that
Detachment is from the same clan.
if grots dont have a clan, then they block the rest of the detachment from using traits. If they do have a clan, but cant use it, the rest of your army is safe
Billagio wrote: Not super tactics related but this is where a lot of the discussion is....
Bonebreakers are obviously great, but does anyone have good alternatives/conversion ideas for deff rollas? I have 4 BWs but no deff rollas and dont feel like shelling out $20 per. Any thoughts?
Also any alternatives for mek gunz besides the 1+1=4 conversion?
I was personally thinking of buying a new BW and use a toilet paper roll (sans paper of course) and stick wooden spikes on them normally used for food. After painting it should look alright but I'm personally not sure if they might be too big versus the official rolla.
I think that might be too big tbh, but good idea. Let me know if it works for you!
I was thinking of using a toilet paper roll too. I think there are thinner ones.
The problem though is that it might be a bit flimsy, so I would reinforce it with plastic or something.
Or just find some sort of plastic tube, like a pipe or something. Maybe a rolling pin?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So it turns out Tankbusta nobz can't have power klaws anymore.
Well gak, looks like I'm going to have to maim one of my models just because the tankbusta kit doesn't have a power klaw in there
We need to sticky a pic of the chart on the front of this topic so this can stop being discussed. You can use index options if there is a discrepancy.
Not universally. The ETC competitive scene in Europe does not allow Index datasheets in any capacity, nor Forgeworld for that matter. And it's very likely only a matter of months before official GW policy follows suit and legacy options are moved to open play only, like they were in AoS.
Play groups can choose to make up and enforce whatever rules they want. Gw has stated that for match play you can use wargear options for a entry if a discrepancy exists between the index and codex via the chart.
Thing is if people somebody with plays say "no" to index rules then what GW says is pretty irrelevant. Either you don't take index options or you won't have game. So having GW doing the right thing from the get-go and have stuff not dropped from codex in the first place would have been preferable.
I wouldnt play a game with some one like this. There is no realistic reason to impose a limit on another regarding indexes. The “I don’t need to use my index so no one else can use thier index” is absurd. That’s like going to an FNM and tell people that you don’t play against blue decks. There is no inherent advantage present in the units of the index.
I’m just telling you how it is. You wanna put extra stuff on your nob, fine it says you can in your index. I’m not gonna tolerate people complaining bout limitations because they don’t want to acknowledge the index.
And we're supposed to tolerate you lying to us that index options are valid when major events don't allow them?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So it turns out Tankbusta nobz can't have power klaws anymore.
Well gak, looks like I'm going to have to maim one of my models just because the tankbusta kit doesn't have a power klaw in there
We need to sticky a pic of the chart on the front of this topic so this can stop being discussed. You can use index options if there is a discrepancy.
I'm not buying another book that may become obsolete soon just because GW is still butthurt over chapterhouse.
There is no reason why tankbusta nobs can't take power klaws like every other nob other than GW's newfound hatred against kitbashes.
Especially when we are talking about an army that's supposed to favor kitbashing more than the others.
I’m just telling you how it is. You wanna put extra stuff on your nob, fine it says you can in your index. I’m not gonna tolerate people complaining bout limitations because they don’t want to acknowledge the index.
Thing is index is NOT an option for everybody. Just because you can take from index doesn't mean he can.
From what he’s said the only thing limiting him from acknowledging the index is that he doesn’t want GW to potentially invalidate the index a year down the road. According to GW, the people who make this game, they have stated you can use the indexes options in situations such as these. Any and all problems that I am hearing are due to play groups or are being self imposed.
Billagio wrote: Not super tactics related but this is where a lot of the discussion is....
Bonebreakers are obviously great, but does anyone have good alternatives/conversion ideas for deff rollas? I have 4 BWs but no deff rollas and dont feel like shelling out $20 per. Any thoughts?
Also any alternatives for mek gunz besides the 1+1=4 conversion?
I was personally thinking of buying a new BW and use a toilet paper roll (sans paper of course) and stick wooden spikes on them normally used for food. After painting it should look alright but I'm personally not sure if they might be too big versus the official rolla.
I think that might be too big tbh, but good idea. Let me know if it works for you!
I was thinking of using a toilet paper roll too. I think there are thinner ones.
The problem though is that it might be a bit flimsy, so I would reinforce it with plastic or something.
Or just find some sort of plastic tube, like a pipe or something. Maybe a rolling pin?
Okay this actually got me thinking, even though I'm not really experienced at kitbashing. What if we use plasticcard/stiff carton to form a dozer blade? Easier to make the right size and were I play at least no one will mind me using that as a rolla. Other options might be similar loose interpretations like say using farming vehicle bits from toys if you have them lying around or forming a ram like shape in front of the wagon, like an old timey locomotive.
I wouldnt play a game with some one like this. There is no realistic reason to impose a limit on another regarding indexes. The “I don’t need to use my index so no one else can use thier index” is absurd. That’s like going to an FNM and tell people that you don’t play against blue decks. There is no inherent advantage present in the units of the index.
Sure. That's your right. Does mean that in many places that leaves you thin with opponents. Yelling "GW SAYS YOU CAN USE INDEX!" is irrelevant if all the playgroups and tournaments nearby say "no you don't" at which point you trying to use it would amount to flat out cheating.
I wouldnt play a game with some one like this. There is no realistic reason to impose a limit on another regarding indexes. The “I don’t need to use my index so no one else can use thier index” is absurd. That’s like going to an FNM and tell people that you don’t play against blue decks. There is no inherent advantage present in the units of the index.
Sure. That's your right. Does mean that in many places that leaves you thin with opponents. Yelling "GW SAYS YOU CAN USE INDEX!" is irrelevant if all the playgroups and tournaments nearby say "no you don't" at which point you trying to use it would amount to flat out cheating.
And it’s the tournaments organizers right to establish and run any rules then want. If you wanna complain about the difference in what GW says and what play groups say don’t do it here. I don’t care for the most part what your play groups says you can’t do because it’s gonna vary for everyone and what play group they choose to play in. All I can do is give advise on what is legal and allowed by the original source,GW.
lord_blackfang wrote: People need to stop equating klans and kulturs. <CLAN> is a pick-your-faction keyword that, to my knowledge, every unit in the Ork codex has (with a few being locked in). Kulturs are special rules that apply to models with a certain choice of faction under certain conditions, of which one is "not being a unit composed entirely of grots".
The rule you said means cannot BENEFIT. Quote text that says gretchins don't HAVE it. The rule you quote says they don't BENEFIT. Not...one...word...about...not...having...it.
Can you explain the functional difference between what I said and what you said?
Not being able to benefit means they can have it and allow the rest of the detachment use the kulture.
Not having it at all means that you run afoul of the following
The issue is in the word "benefit". It makes it sound like they have the kultur (due to being a <clan> unit in a battleforged Ork detachment), but don't get the benefit of the special rules.
Which would suggest they could activate the Freebooterz +1 to hit (due to being a friendly unit with this kultur) but not "benefit" from the +1 themselves.
I suspect however this isn't what they meant.
lord_blackfang wrote: People need to stop equating klans and kulturs. <CLAN> is a pick-your-faction keyword that, to my knowledge, every unit in the Ork codex has (with a few being locked in). Kulturs are special rules that apply to models with a certain choice of faction under certain conditions, of which one is "not being a unit composed entirely of grots".
The rule you said means cannot BENEFIT. Quote text that says gretchins don't HAVE it. The rule you quote says they don't BENEFIT. Not...one...word...about...not...having...it.
Can you explain the functional difference between what I said and what you said?
Not being able to benefit means they can have it and allow the rest of the detachment use the kulture.
Not having it at all means that you run afoul of the following
If your army is Battle-forged, all <CLAN>
units in ORK Detachments (excluding those
in Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachments) gain
a Clan Kultur, so long as every unit in that
Detachment is from the same clan.
if grots dont have a clan, then they block the rest of the detachment from using traits. If they do have a clan, but cant use it, the rest of your army is safe
The whole point of my post was that you people are mixing up kulturs (the special benefits) and klanz (the faction keywords). They are not the same thing.
And it’s the tournaments organizers right to establish and run any rules then want. If you wanna complain about the difference in what GW says and what play groups say don’t do it here. I don’t care for the most part what your play groups says you can’t do because it’s gonna vary for everyone and what play group they choose to play in. All I can do is give advise on what is legal and allowed by the original source,GW.
Ultimately what GW says is irrelevant. What matters is what the people you play with. There's no universal 40k that's being played(indeed every group plays different 40k anyway). So repeating "but index" is misleading. Only way options would be universally usable would be for them to be in codex. The moment GW left them from codex was the moment those became illegal for whole lot of players.
If your army is Battle-forged, all <CLAN>
units in ORK Detachments (excluding those
in Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachments) gain
a Clan Kultur, so long as every unit in that
Detachment is from the same clan.
So, by taking a Bad Moonz Supreme Command Detachment of 3 Weirdboyz (or whatever), and a Stompa...
And then make the Stompa the Warlord with the 4++ Warlord Trait...
and have a couple of Evil Sunz Meks ride along , one with Da Fixxer Upperz to regenerate 3 wounds per turn and the other to have the Redder Armor so the Stompa has the Mortal Wounds aura...
Do you think that would that be enough to elevate the Stompa into usefulness?
Could be...Except stompa isn't character so while he can be warlord he can't take the trait. Also that's a LOT of points spent on model that's going to be blown apart fast. 3 isn't much help if you are losing close to 30 a turn(with 5++ and assuming no mortal wounds coming it's way)
And it’s the tournaments organizers right to establish and run any rules then want. If you wanna complain about the difference in what GW says and what play groups say don’t do it here. I don’t care for the most part what your play groups says you can’t do because it’s gonna vary for everyone and what play group they choose to play in. All I can do is give advise on what is legal and allowed by the original source,GW.
Ultimately what GW says is irrelevant. What matters is what the people you play with. There's no universal 40k that's being played(indeed every group plays different 40k anyway). So repeating "but index" is misleading. Only way options would be universally usable would be for them to be in codex. The moment GW left them from codex was the moment those became illegal for whole lot of players.
I can say "but the index" all I want because it was reinforced by an official source. Whether or not your play group wants to play by those rules or not is irrelevant. Yoru play group can include warmachine models and rules and I still wouldn't care. If saying that "you can use the index because GW said so" is missleading then saying you cant because a playgroup wont allow it is even more so.
We know that GW makes mistakes and the fact taht they came out with the chart regarding codex/index means that potentially there was some design in it. Maybe the codex was written with the index in mind. The fact that players think that the indexs are no longer legal is by thier own opinion, when it has been stated that GW that the index should be acknowledged when a discrepancy appears.
Again I dont care about what rules other people want to play by if im not the one thats gonna be playing with them. Its been stated by the developer of the game, that this is how it is currently intended. The stores I play at will allow the index options if they dont exist in the codex for thier tournaments.
If people want to further discuss the mertis or viablility of a unit or selection please preface the post with " My play group does not allow index" or "these are the limitations imposed by MY playgroup".
tneva82 wrote: Could be...Except stompa isn't character so while he can be warlord he can't take the trait. Also that's a LOT of points spent on model that's going to be blown apart fast. 3 isn't much help if you are losing close to 30 a turn(with 5++ and assuming no mortal wounds coming it's way)
Oh, I thought ANY Model could be a Warlord, not just Characters.... One more nail in the Stompa Coffin, I guess.
tneva82 wrote: Could be...Except stompa isn't character so while he can be warlord he can't take the trait. Also that's a LOT of points spent on model that's going to be blown apart fast. 3 isn't much help if you are losing close to 30 a turn(with 5++ and assuming no mortal wounds coming it's way)
Oh, I thought ANY Model could be a Warlord, not just Characters.... One more nail in the Stompa Coffin, I guess.
Any model CAN be warlord. But only character gains the trait. But if you want to have slay the warlord trait on "shoot me" target painted stompa you can do it. Or if you have some other reason(like the apoc game I played where you could deploy only 1/3 of army(100PL) and had to have warlord there. I figured to try with stompa as initial figuring that maybe opponents having 33PL vs my 50 or so would give stompa SOME protection. Bad idea. Should have been gorkanaut+big mek w/kff! Stompa was mercilessly one shotted off the field :lol:
tneva82 wrote: Could be...Except stompa isn't character so while he can be warlord he can't take the trait. Also that's a LOT of points spent on model that's going to be blown apart fast. 3 isn't much help if you are losing close to 30 a turn(with 5++ and assuming no mortal wounds coming it's way)
Oh, I thought ANY Model could be a Warlord, not just Characters.... One more nail in the Stompa Coffin, I guess.
Think imperial knights are the only ones to get around this?
It USED to have to be a character/HQ, now anything can, but being Warlord if you arent a character does literally nothing other than satisfy the "You must have a warlord" quota.
tneva82 wrote: Could be...Except stompa isn't character so while he can be warlord he can't take the trait. Also that's a LOT of points spent on model that's going to be blown apart fast. 3 isn't much help if you are losing close to 30 a turn(with 5++ and assuming no mortal wounds coming it's way)
Oh, I thought ANY Model could be a Warlord, not just Characters.... One more nail in the Stompa Coffin, I guess.
Think imperial knights are the only ones to get around this?
Pretty much yes. Dark eldars have ability to spread warlord traits around but even those have to be chacters. And technically even knights don't get around this. Their trait just makes that model character thus giving for example heroic intervene. Don't park your unit within 3" if you don't want knight heroic intervening into you n your turn!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vineheart01 wrote: It USED to have to be a character/HQ, now anything can, but being Warlord if you arent a character does literally nothing other than satisfy the "You must have a warlord" quota.
Tyranids also have at least tried to exploit that with some mycolid spore which doesn't count for killing and thus arqument is no "slay the warlord". Wonder if that has changed? Been a while since I have seen that one mentioned.
Hi. I haven't gotten the time to read all this thread yet, but just wanted to give my two cents.
Played a 1000pts. game as soon as i got the codex with what i had around. Some comments:
-Used a 12 loota mob. Got 36, 36 and 12 shots first 3 turns, with more dakka! strat and DDD did 14 wounds 12 wounds and 8 wounds in 3 rounds of shooting. Used 2 10 gretchin mobs and used Grot shield Strat on the lootas after i got first blood on a Space Wolves cavalry that has that 3++ save. After that he shot with everything on the lootas for 3 turns and i only lost 2 thanks to the grots. Also thinking about it, more dakka basically let lootas move and fire without penalty as they would auto hit on 5"s.
-Warboss is not a beatsnik, unless you use shiny gubbinz. Headwoppas Killchoppa is nasty with the mortal wound ability, but if you don't roll a 6, don't expect to survive a space wolves, etc. return attacks. Gave him kunnin but brutal trait and it was a nice surprise to give my opponent.
-Ran Evil Sunz: warbikers and deffkoptas were super fast. Even the Deff Dread got a chunk of terrain in no time.Bikers had a nice softening round of shooting thanks to DDD.
-Btw, watch out for Space Wolves units with a termi in them. They can try to save all shots with the invulnerable.
gave skorchas to the deff Dread, is nice to auto hit but agaisnt any marine is difficult to wound anything. Oh, and obviously watch out for power fists, ouch!
Really enjoyed using the new codex. Looking for some things i wanna try.
-Grot shield for lootas with a few spanners to heal 2 deff dreads. Would make this bad moons and give the dread Rokkits or maybe even KMB"s.
-Can't wait to get a deff killa wartrike and try to get a big mob of bikers charge on turn one with the new buggies to support.
elgermen wrote: Hi. I haven't gotten the time to read all this thread yet, but just wanted to give my two cents.
Played a 1000pts. game as soon as i got the codex with what i had around. Some comments:
-Used a 12 loota mob. Got 36, 36 and 12 shots first 3 turns, with more dakka! strat and DDD did 14 wounds 12 wounds and 8 wounds in 3 rounds of shooting. Used 2 10 gretchin mobs and used Grot shield Strat on the lootas after i got first blood on a Space Wolves cavalry that has that 3++ save. After that he shot with everything on the lootas for 3 turns and i only lost 2 thanks to the grots. Also thinking about it, more dakka basically let lootas move and fire without penalty as they would auto hit on 5"s.
-Warboss is not a beatsnik, unless you use shiny gubbinz. Headwoppas Killchoppa is nasty with the mortal wound ability, but if you don't roll a 6, don't expect to survive a space wolves, etc. return attacks. Gave him kunnin but brutal trait and it was a nice surprise to give my opponent.
-Ran Evil Sunz: warbikers and deffkoptas were super fast. Even the Deff Dread got a chunk of terrain in no time.Bikers had a nice softening round of shooting thanks to DDD.
-Btw, watch out for Space Wolves units with a termi in them. They can try to save all shots with the invulnerable.
gave skorchas to the deff Dread, is nice to auto hit but agaisnt any marine is difficult to wound anything. Oh, and obviously watch out for power fists, ouch!
Really enjoyed using the new codex. Looking for some things i wanna try.
-Grot shield for lootas with a few spanners to heal 2 deff dreads. Would make this bad moons and give the dread Rokkits or maybe even KMB"s.
-Can't wait to get a deff killa wartrike and try to get a big mob of bikers charge on turn one with the new buggies to support.
Any more ideas?
-
Ya Lootas are probably alot more viable when considered with grots as a shield and are potentially the unit that benefits the most from grot shielding.
Bosses are still pretty pillowfsted in most cases due to lack of non relic options. When you consider relics, warlord traits and Psychic powers they become pretty ridiculous.
Bikers are probably soemthing that alot of people will start to play around with a bit more due to the sheer number of shots you get along with decent durability and mobility.
with the wartrike the T1 charge is very real for quite a few vehicles, with suns and ramming. Im pretty pumped to start porting in groups of 3 dreads and boxing in units with them.
I know I need to have a pin made or something. Cant remember where I came across it. Props to who ever made it. Not sure if im in the wrong by using someone elses pic...
Found the guy. hes got quite a few Chibi 40k pieces. Props to him. Ill definately have to contact him at some point about making pins or something
So I played two games this weekend with the new codex and los both of them. So the Codex obviously sucks [sarcasm].
Here are my takes:
1) I am terrible at managing and using stratagems (I have only played orks in 8th ed). There is a learning curve and I missed out.
2) 3 or more Knights are still a problem match up for our army
3) Bikes are still not great, they die too easily, and do not have enough output.
4) Flash gitz seem good
5) The buggies are probably overpriced...but the dragster seems useful
6) I kinda like having the MA Big Mek w/ the KMB, he does work with the deathskullz trait.
I have been trying to make every list with 90 boyz, 1 KFF and a painboy. I don't know if the is correct.
Thought about a list with all 2000 points trying for a turn 1 rush, ended up with 5 mek gunz on the back line but the rest could see a charge turn 1 with a good advance/charge roll, ill be looking to shoot targets behind the screen units if it looks like I can charge them, since a good round of shooting usually messes up my would have been charge... the big mek on foot is staying with the kannons, so the odd boy gets a 6++, 5+++ to run off and fight stuff. With 16 CP I like the pain this list can bring out T1 - 2.
- 2000 points orks - 16 CP - Battalion detachment - + 5 CP (Death-skullz)
- HQ -
- Lv 2 Weird boy - 62 pts
(Da-jump/Fist of gork/Super cyborg body)
- Big mek - 55 pts - KFF - 20 pts
- Troop -
- Grechin x 10 - 30 pts
- Grechin x 10 - 30 pts
- Grechin x 10 - 30 pts
- Heavy -
- Smasha Guns x 5 - 155 pts
- Battalion detachment - + 5 CP (Evil-Sunz)
- HQ -
- D-Killa War-trike - 120 pts
(warlord/follow me ladz!) +1 CP - Big Mek on Bike - 81 pts - KFF - 20 pts
- Troop -
- Grechin x 10 - 30 pts
- Boyz x 10 - 70 pts - Nob BC - 5 pts
- Boyz x 30 - 210 pts - Nob BC - 5 pts
- Elites -
- Nobs x 10 - 144 pts - 10 x BC's - 50 pts
(1 x Runt)
- Tanbustas x 10 - 170 pts - 1 x Squig - 10 pts
- Tanbustas x 10 - 170 pts - 2 x Squig - 20 pts
- Fast Attack -
- Warbikers x 9 - 207 pts - Nob BC - 5 pts
- Heavy -
- Bonebreaker - 140 pts - Death -R - 19 pts
- Transport -
- Trucks - 59 pts - Rokit - 12 pts
- Trucks - 59 pts - Rokit - 12 pts
Geemoney wrote: So I played two games this weekend with the new codex and los both of them. So the Codex obviously sucks [sarcasm].
Here are my takes:
1) I am terrible at managing and using stratagems (I have only played orks in 8th ed). There is a learning curve and I missed out.
2) 3 or more Knights are still a problem match up for our army
3) Bikes are still not great, they die too easily, and do not have enough output.
4) Flash gitz seem good
5) The buggies are probably overpriced...but the dragster seems useful
6) I kinda like having the MA Big Mek w/ the KMB, he does work with the deathskullz trait.
I have been trying to make every list with 90 boyz, 1 KFF and a painboy. I don't know if the is correct.
Im with you on boys. Before codex, you basically couldnt go wrong by having boys in any quantity. Now that there are potentially better options I dont know what the resonable number of boys is any more. Im thinking at the least of running 2 30 and 1 10 to make a 40 and fill out slots. Past that maybe more grots for Cp.
Grots seem pretty useful.
They are cheap screening unit that can double as literal meat shields. I'm going to try to incorporate at least 2 squads of 20.
Billagio wrote: Im really struggling putting a list together without tons of boyz. Its burned into my head. If I make a list without atleast 90-120 it feels wrong.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So it turns out Tankbusta nobz can't have power klaws anymore.
Well gak, looks like I'm going to have to maim one of my models just because the tankbusta kit doesn't have a power klaw in there
We need to sticky a pic of the chart on the front of this topic so this can stop being discussed. You can use index options if there is a discrepancy.
Not universally. The ETC competitive scene in Europe does not allow Index datasheets in any capacity, nor Forgeworld for that matter. And it's very likely only a matter of months before official GW policy follows suit and legacy options are moved to open play only, like they were in AoS.
Considering they JUST updated the index with a faq... your matter of months is complete gak...
At worst I expect the index to be allowed until they release genecult, sisters, agents of imperium/inquisition/assassins, khorne, slannesh codecs... at the point every list in the index will be updated and then they will update the index as power level only....
that however won’t happen until chapter approved 2019 at the very least!!!
So as it currently stands all of North America including any itc event allows forgeworld and index (power level limit not withstanding) and most of England including warbanner world... it’s just those darn euros and thier ETC that restricts your options.
But i don’t expect GW to make the index power level only until every model they make has a codex... that’s a long ways off. We will probably be in 9th edition by then.
Billagio wrote: Im really struggling putting a list together without tons of boyz. Its burned into my head. If I make a list without atleast 90-120 it feels wrong.
Same here, I get it.
Honestly tho I feel liberated that I can play Orks MSU to much greater effect. Will take time to get over the old dogma of boys before toys but I encourage everyone to break out and dust off the old stuff and start playing outside of the box to the fullest and see if you really like and and if you can win games.
I have been trying to make every list with 90 boyz, 1 KFF and a painboy. I don't know if the is correct.
Maximum number of units of boyz you want to have is number you put to teleporter+1 for da jump if you want. KFF is okay if you plan to use it for non-boyz. Ditto for painboy. But if you plan to use those for boyz as the boyz will teleport ahead it's going to be hard to get them into range to protect the boyz.
Just want to throw this out there, I agree that it looks like Nobz can take two choppas, but GW may rule that the second one doesn't give an extra attack. Before you start trying to logic this out by quoting rules, be aware that GW did exactly this recently by ruling that (in Killteam at least) a 'nid Warrior with two sets of boneswords does not get an extra attack for the second set. This seems like exactly the same thing, so they may (or may not) FAQ it the same way.
Two killsaws seems legit, and it talks about an extra attack in the weapon profile so I can't see any way for that to go sideways.
Here's a list I threw together in Battlescribe; if the points aren't accurate, that's unfortunate. -- The plan is to castle up with all the MekGunz+KFF+Grotz, then Jump the boyz in (Mobbed Up), preferably with "Monster Hunter"+"Get in, Boyz!". Chinork+Nobz are there entirely just so I can use "MoreDakka"+"Showin'Off"+"LongUncontrolledBursts", and just have fun; maybe it can even get a ramming move off. The Deff Dreads will try to charge/ram something.
Really, this list is super vulnerable to everything, and doesn't have enough punch in return - but it's got some fun things in it I guess? Too many MekGunz most likely though.
- I think the optimal number of boyz is 30 (teleport) + 30*n (being n the number of weirdboys for jumping).
- Tankbustas + battlewagon is a real strong comp.
- Deffkopters are very strong for their price, you can deepstrike with rockets and then stratagem to scape after shooting (like if it was mov.phase), being Evil Sunz you can go safe for sure.
- Killa kans still useless, playing deepstrike let them out of meta, they are too slow and not being able to obtain buffs due to their Gretchlin condition, Evil Sunz cannot help them.
- Traktor Kannon can be the key to win in a lot of matches.
I think the meta now is not 150 boyz and trying to survive going into the front, the meta is deepstrikes and charges from every angle with Evil Sunz + reroll charges, Da Jump boyz, battlewagon+tankbustas obliterating tanky gak.
Maybe orks are now harder to play and need more skill and tactics about how to manage your CP, because you need CP to use your boyz.
Shrapnelbait wrote: Just want to throw this out there, I agree that it looks like Nobz can take two choppas, but GW may rule that the second one doesn't give an extra attack. Before you start trying to logic this out by quoting rules, be aware that GW did exactly this recently by ruling that (in Killteam at least) a 'nid Warrior with two sets of boneswords does not get an extra attack for the second set. This seems like exactly the same thing, so they may (or may not) FAQ it the same way.
Two killsaws seems legit, and it talks about an extra attack in the weapon profile so I can't see any way for that to go sideways.
Did they do this for double chainsword vanguard vets? If not I think we are on the safer side.
- I think the optimal number of boyz is 30 (teleport) + 30*n (being n the number of weirdboys for jumping).
- Tankbustas + battlewagon is a real strong comp.
- Deffkopters are very strong for their price, you can deepstrike with rockets and then stratagem to scape after shooting (like if it was mov.phase), being Evil Sunz you can go safe for sure.
- Killa kans still useless, playing deepstrike let them out of meta, they are too slow and not being able to obtain buffs due to their Gretchlin condition, Evil Sunz cannot help them.
- Traktor Kannon can be the key to win in a lot of matches.
I think the meta now is not 150 boyz and trying to survive going into the front, the meta is deepstrikes and charges from every angle with Evil Sunz + reroll charges, Da Jump boyz, battlewagon+tankbustas obliterating tanky gak.
Maybe orks are now harder to play and need more skill and tactics about how to manage your CP, because you need CP to use your boyz.
I love how we went from a dumb foot slogging faction to nothing but warspiders. That will teach em to underestimate dat orks.
Orks will need a lot more CP than usual; I think Battalion:[2 Weirdboyz+3x10 Gretchin] will be the go-to core for every list.
MekGunz will be a staple, either the Smasha Gun, or Traktor Kannon; depending on how the metas evolve (local and regional)
Gretchin units of all kinds are largely useless, the inability for kultur or stratagems hurts them significantly
The go-to strategy will be Da Jump + Tellyporta; backed up by Evil Sunz first and second turn charges galore - I'm not sure if Orks can rally a solid shooting list, outside of spamming 18 Mek Gunz.
I'm not sure if footslogging will still be viable; jump+tellyporta are too good, and the points cost hurts Boyz/Stormboyz, who already got wiped out on their way in; now the same thing happens, but with even less models fieldable.
fe40k wrote: That lines up with what I've been thinking;
Orks will need a lot more CP than usual; I think Battalion:[2 Weirdboyz+3x10 Gretchin] will be the go-to core for every list.
MekGunz will be a staple, either the Smasha Gun, or Traktor Kannon; depending on how the metas evolve (local and regional)
Gretchin units of all kinds are largely useless, the inability for kultur or stratagems hurts them significantly
The go-to strategy will be Da Jump + Tellyporta; backed up by Evil Sunz first and second turn charges galore - I'm not sure if Orks can rally a solid shooting list, outside of spamming 18 Mek Gunz.
I'm not sure if footslogging will still be viable; jump+tellyporta are too good, and the points cost hurts Boyz/Stormboyz, who already got wiped out on their way in; now the same thing happens, but with even less models fieldable.
Ive been feeling that brigades are more viable than ever for orks now that more than a few selections got more viable and function ideally as MSU due to Deffskullz traits. Double Battalion is probably much more versatile
3HQs
MSU kommandos, bustas or nobs in trucks
90 boys and 30 grots
3 of the new buggies or deffkoptas
3 Mek guns
I havent mathed out the points yet but im sure You can fit plenty more in here.
A Patrol can substitute for a third division as well, if you're looking for 1-2 units in particular.
The biggest problem will be Klan+Kultur; EvilSunz is the best for just about everything, but if you want any sort of shooting element - you'll want to take BadMoonz (Or Deathskullz, if you're going Tankbustas).
I'm curious to see which ends up winning out, mass MekGunz, or Tankbustas; it's possible a mix will form as well.
A Patrol can substitute for a third division as well, if you're looking for 1-2 units in particular.
The biggest problem will be Klan+Kultur; EvilSunz is the best for just about everything, but if you want any sort of shooting element - you'll want to take BadMoonz (Or Deathskullz, if you're going Tankbustas).
I'm curious to see which ends up winning out, mass MekGunz, or Tankbustas; it's possible a mix will form as well.
For this reason you are probably right and double battalion might be better so you are not locked in to a single clan.
Hard to say for mek guns and bustas. Guns will tend to be less of a points investment I feel and can act as psuedo silverbuillets against certain units. The amount of damage that bustas can do with the investment of points and CP is pretty amazing tho.
Okay so I'm sure this is already discussed, but can someone explain the Goff warlord trait (+1A)? I read people saying "well because Ghaz..." which doesn't make any sense because I don't see why Ghaz could not take Might Is Right (+1S, +1A).
Am I missing something and do you think there exists a chance the Goff warlord trait gets FAQ'd? I mean they did mess up the Space Wolves trait page after all... thoughts?
Weazel wrote: Okay so I'm sure this is already discussed, but can someone explain the Goff warlord trait (+1A)? I read people saying "well because Ghaz..." which doesn't make any sense because I don't see why Ghaz could not take Might Is Right (+1S, +1A).
Am I missing something and do you think there exists a chance the Goff warlord trait gets FAQ'd? I mean they did mess up the Space Wolves trait page after all... thoughts?
From the rulebook:
NAMED CHARACTERS AND WARLORD TRAITS
If a named character with a specific clan keyword is your Warlord, they must be given the associated Warlord Trait. For example, Ghazghkull Thraka must take the Goff ‘Proper Killy’ Warlord Trait (see opposite) as he has the GOFF keyword.
So Ghaz can't actually take Might Is Right, if he's your warlord he must take Proper Killy. I think it's like that since there's three goff characters with good melee profiles. The real question is why couldn't they just have come up with a more interesting warlord trait, like they did for the other klans.
Weazel wrote: Okay so I'm sure this is already discussed, but can someone explain the Goff warlord trait (+1A)? I read people saying "well because Ghaz..." which doesn't make any sense because I don't see why Ghaz could not take Might Is Right (+1S, +1A).
Am I missing something and do you think there exists a chance the Goff warlord trait gets FAQ'd? I mean they did mess up the Space Wolves trait page after all... thoughts?
GW is idiot. That's what. The Ghaz isn't even that super hyper guy the Might is Right would be ridiculous for him for that price.
Weazel wrote: Okay so I'm sure this is already discussed, but can someone explain the Goff warlord trait (+1A)? I read people saying "well because Ghaz..." which doesn't make any sense because I don't see why Ghaz could not take Might Is Right (+1S, +1A).
Am I missing something and do you think there exists a chance the Goff warlord trait gets FAQ'd? I mean they did mess up the Space Wolves trait page after all... thoughts?
From the rulebook:
NAMED CHARACTERS AND WARLORD TRAITS
If a named character with a specific clan keyword is your Warlord, they must be given the associated Warlord Trait. For example, Ghazghkull Thraka must take the Goff ‘Proper Killy’ Warlord Trait (see opposite) as he has the GOFF keyword.
So Ghaz can't actually take Might Is Right, if he's your warlord he must take Proper Killy. I think it's like that since there's three goff characters with good melee profiles. The real question is why couldn't they just have come up with a more interesting warlord trait, like they did for the other klans.
Okay I have missed that. Do you have a page reference?
1) I think Evil Sunz and Death Skullz will be our go to clans. Evil Sunz has a ton of uses, and MSU Death Skullz squads will pack a punch in both shooting and fighting, and can generate some CPs.
2) Blood Axes and Bad Moonz will be useful for the stratagems. The shoot twice stratagem can make for a very powerful bomb. 15 doubletapping tankbustas in a BW can kill a knight or a baneblade. The Blood Axe dead sneaky stratagem can work like an extra tellyporta, and bloodaxe bone breaker wagons might be popular.
3) Goffs and Snakebites are pretty so-so clans, I think.
They are essentially getting a 17% upgrade in fighting or durability respectively. Not bad, bot not great either.
4) The Frrebooterz trait I am not sure of. It might be great, but it requires list-building and deploying with the buff-trigger in mind, and it will suffer disproportionately against knight lists.
A Patrol can substitute for a third division as well, if you're looking for 1-2 units in particular.
The biggest problem will be Klan+Kultur; EvilSunz is the best for just about everything, but if you want any sort of shooting element - you'll want to take BadMoonz (Or Deathskullz, if you're going Tankbustas).
I'm curious to see which ends up winning out, mass MekGunz, or Tankbustas; it's possible a mix will form as well.
For this reason you are probably right and double battalion might be better so you are not locked in to a single clan.
Hard to say for mek guns and bustas. Guns will tend to be less of a points investment I feel and can act as psuedo silverbuillets against certain units. The amount of damage that bustas can do with the investment of points and CP is pretty amazing tho.
Just to throw this out there, I actually think a Goff brigade backed up by a Bad Moonz battalion or detachment might be really effective...I know, I know, Evil Sunz, but hear me out.
The skarboyz stratagem gives the Goff clan enormous flexibility in what the Boyz can deal with. Being able to throw S5 onto 90 boyz for a measly 3 CP if facing Knights, Death Guard, Custodes, or other high toughness enemies expands the range of things the Boyz can handle. Add in exploding 6's in melee, mob up, grot shield, the 'ard boyz stratagem depending what you're up against, and the ability to bring a mob back on when it's nearly wiped out and you have a combination of lethality and staying power that I think has a lot to recommend it. Not to mention the option to take Ghaz. Admittedly the Evil Sunz kultur is stronger in a vacuum, but the boost from 57% to 72% for making a charge out of deep strike is probably not going to be decisive most of the time.
Throw mek gunz in for heavy support, probably stormboyz for fast attack and free deep strike (saving precious CP's for other stuff), and maybe small units of meganobz or nobz for elites (or kommandos to keep it cheap), you could put together a brigade for ~1400 points, leaving you 600 points for Bad Moonz lootas and grots in a battalion with a couple of weirdboyz or big meks for HQ's to wreck things at range. Or bring in Tankbustas that you can deep strike and double shoot to basically remove one thing you hate from the battlefield on the turn they arrive. Drop battalion for smaller detachment to cut back on HQ choices to save points.
To my mind, the greatest strength here is the ability to adapt to your opponent so easily with stratagems that you can pick after you know what you're up against. You can tellyport different units depending on what you're facing, for example, and being able to add skarboyz to the mix of things you can do to adapt to your opponent might make the Goffs a better choice than their kultur makes them first appear.
pismakron wrote: 1) I think Evil Sunz and Death Skullz will be our go to clans. Evil Sunz has a ton of uses, and MSU Death Skullz squads will pack a punch in both shooting and fighting, and can generate some CPs.
2) Blood Axes and Bad Moonz will be useful for the stratagems. The shoot twice stratagem can make for a very powerful bomb. 15 doubletapping tankbustas in a BW can kill a knight or a baneblade. The Blood Axe dead sneaky stratagem can work like an extra tellyporta, and bloodaxe bone breaker wagons might be popular.
3) Goffs and Snakebites are pretty so-so clans, I think.
They are essentially getting a 17% upgrade in fighting or durability respectively. Not bad, bot not great either.
4) The Frrebooterz trait I am not sure of. It might be great, but it requires list-building and deploying with the buff-trigger in mind, and it will suffer disproportionately against knight lists.
1) Yep. Evil sun except for some specific usages. Bad moon grot+2xweirdboy+either lootas or tank bustas could work. Blood axes, goffs, snakebites are going to be much more rare I think. Freebotas remains to be seen. Some of their units can be very good if you can trigger that +1BS but can you do that without already exhausting your freebootas...Not going to be small detachment to plug in among main force at least.
2) Blood axe strategem suffers from unit not having reliable charge. With tellyporta and da jump that is rather unusual need.
3) Goffs problem is killyness has never been orks biggest problem. Maybe good for trukk boyz but not sold on 12 boyz+trukk. As for snakebite effect is actually less than 1/6 saved.
The skarboyz stratagem gives the Goff clan enormous flexibility in what the Boyz can deal with. Being able to throw S5 onto 90 boyz for a measly 3 CP if facing Knights, Death Guard, Custodes, or other high toughness enemies expands the range of things the Boyz can handle. Add in exploding 6's in melee, mob up, grot shield, the 'ard boyz stratagem depending what you're up against, and the ability to bring a mob back on when it's nearly wiped out and you have a combination of lethality and staying power that I think has a lot to recommend it. Not to mention the option to take Ghaz. Admittedly the Evil Sunz kultur is stronger in a vacuum, but the boost from 57% to 72% for making a charge out of deep strike is probably not going to be decisive most of the time.
42% chance of failing and being deleted accomplishing nothing. It's very unreliable to try to deep strike with goffs and remember you will be losing ~60 models a turn against sub optimal gunline so that 90 boyz is mostly dead after enemy gets to shoot.
If you teleport all 3 you get 1-2 squad. Yey. Hopefully screens are cleared so you can actually get to knight. 30 skarboyz does 9 wounds to knight. IF you get 2 units and all into combat(unlikely) you cause 18 wounds. Then those 2 units will get deleted and gap between next knight and the 3rd unit 9" behind can easily be big enough it won't attack next turn either.
Flamers bad now that orks can do reliable 9" charge out of deep strike. No overwatch. And they won't be walking through but are coming through deep strike. If you are imperium invest more of basic infantry squads(screen) and punishers. Nothing annoys ork more than 40 S5 shots rerolling 1's to hit. Especially one that costs 2/3 of your boyz squad!
I'm trying to make a case to myself for Flash Gitz because I love the models and I think there's a lot of potential there, it's just...not being able to make them bad moonz or death skullz really hurts their damage output relative to lootas or bustas that can double-shoot or re-roll wounds. The 4+ save and 2 wounds combined isn't enough to make up for the fact that they won't be able to use Grot Shields unless they're in a Freebooterz detachment.
Early december I'll be taking a plunge and try COMPETIVE tournament. Usually I restrict myself to the more casual as I find them more enjoyable but due to codex being week too late for 6k apoc game(which I then missed due to stomach issues) and tournament(lists needed to be returned friday, tournament on sunday and on saturday I was 240km trip away from nearest store with ork codex...) and this month casual tournament not simply having enough hobby budget I'm itching to play anything! So let's see how much I can cheese up. Also good motivator to paint stuff as I need to paint new stuff for this list. 2000 pts, no index stuff, FW allowed. Only WARLORDS faction strategems are available which helps orks. No faction specific tactical objective cards. Mix of maelstrom and eternal war scenarios. Winner will get place to invitational tournament.
Battallion: Evil suns
Trike HQ warboss w/big choppa
3x10 gretchin
3xdeff dread(skorcha, 2xklaw, saw each) Yea yea skorcha sucks. I have to see if I can find some spare arms of anything and exchange the preglued skorcha that they were armed when I bought the models.
So basically ork gunline. 12 mek guns, lootas(with show off if needed) and tank bustas should give me decent shooting. 9 gretchin squads ensure screens and objective grabbing. Dreads will be in tellyporta ready to come smashing. Tank bustas coming in with chinork either hiding behind LOS blocking or deep striking depending on terrain.
Alternative idea is replace one weirdboy into big mek in mega armour w/kff for the mek gun battery protection. However this requires point drops so chinork off and tank bustas into 12 strong mob and sent into range by da jump. That or walk behind grot screen.
One issue is there's only 30 gretchin to protect the stuff I want to protect with grot screen :-/ Moving either lootas or tank bustas to deathskulls would help on that regards but those units really want to be bad moons...
edit: That's 20 drops. Rather lot. Odds of getting that +1 is pretty slim I think so maybe better to split the mek guns to 5x2 and 2x1 drops. Would increase drops to 25 but I could at least get key deployments after enemy has mostly deployed plus more flexibility in placement. With 9 grot units, deff dreads to deep strike and 7 mek gun drops lootas and tank bustas should be able to go where they have best possibilities to do stuff.
A Patrol can substitute for a third division as well, if you're looking for 1-2 units in particular.
The biggest problem will be Klan+Kultur; EvilSunz is the best for just about everything, but if you want any sort of shooting element - you'll want to take BadMoonz (Or Deathskullz, if you're going Tankbustas).
I'm curious to see which ends up winning out, mass MekGunz, or Tankbustas; it's possible a mix will form as well.
For this reason you are probably right and double battalion might be better so you are not locked in to a single clan.
Hard to say for mek guns and bustas. Guns will tend to be less of a points investment I feel and can act as psuedo silverbuillets against certain units. The amount of damage that bustas can do with the investment of points and CP is pretty amazing tho.
Just to throw this out there, I actually think a Goff brigade backed up by a Bad Moonz battalion or detachment might be really effective...I know, I know, Evil Sunz, but hear me out.
The skarboyz stratagem gives the Goff clan enormous flexibility in what the Boyz can deal with. Being able to throw S5 onto 90 boyz for a measly 3 CP if facing Knights, Death Guard, Custodes, or other high toughness enemies expands the range of things the Boyz can handle. Add in exploding 6's in melee, mob up, grot shield, the 'ard boyz stratagem depending what you're up against, and the ability to bring a mob back on when it's nearly wiped out and you have a combination of lethality and staying power that I think has a lot to recommend it. Not to mention the option to take Ghaz. Admittedly the Evil Sunz kultur is stronger in a vacuum, but the boost from 57% to 72% for making a charge out of deep strike is probably not going to be decisive most of the time.
Throw mek gunz in for heavy support, probably stormboyz for fast attack and free deep strike (saving precious CP's for other stuff), and maybe small units of meganobz or nobz for elites (or kommandos to keep it cheap), you could put together a brigade for ~1400 points, leaving you 600 points for Bad Moonz lootas and grots in a battalion with a couple of weirdboyz or big meks for HQ's to wreck things at range. Or bring in Tankbustas that you can deep strike and double shoot to basically remove one thing you hate from the battlefield on the turn they arrive. Drop battalion for smaller detachment to cut back on HQ choices to save points.
To my mind, the greatest strength here is the ability to adapt to your opponent so easily with stratagems that you can pick after you know what you're up against. You can tellyport different units depending on what you're facing, for example, and being able to add skarboyz to the mix of things you can do to adapt to your opponent might make the Goffs a better choice than their kultur makes them first appear.
I can dig this. 1260 for S5 160 boys take 2 wierdboy boys and 2 smashbosses. Last few points need to be silver bullets against everything else. Still seems flawed but I’m sure the concept is pretty strong with some optimization. You are just playing index orks but it’s much stronger.
Qadripple kmb deff dreads could be fun for freebotas/bad moonz/deffskullz.
I will try to run mechanized freebootaz using tabletop simulator just to get a feel of them. Don't have this many vehicles irl unfortunately and will likely not spend so much money on the whole new army. Well, unless i get a great deal that is.
Eonfuzz wrote: Because the Gretchin around the Mekguns are now part of the Mekgun model, does that mean we can shoot from the gretchin?
And because they don't have a ruleset when it says "Must be within 1" of the mekgun" because the gretchin *are* the mekgun, can you chainthem to fire the mekgun even further than normal?
Also, because they "aren't" part of the mekgun, nor do they have rules. How do they move? Can they move?
This is why we can’t have nice things.
I do not have the codex, but just consider the grots as table decoration, or wound counters; not as a means of breaking the unit.
42% chance of failing and being deleted accomplishing nothing. It's very unreliable to try to deep strike with goffs and remember you will be losing ~60 models a turn against sub optimal gunline so that 90 boyz is mostly dead after enemy gets to shoot.
If you teleport all 3 you get 1-2 squad. Yey. Hopefully screens are cleared so you can actually get to knight. 30 skarboyz does 9 wounds to knight. IF you get 2 units and all into combat(unlikely) you cause 18 wounds. Then those 2 units will get deleted and gap between next knight and the 3rd unit 9" behind can easily be big enough it won't attack next turn either.
I think you're greatly overestimating the difference between 42% chance of failure and 28% chance of failure. Evil Sunz trait doesn't make it a sure thing by any means, just a bit more likely. I don't disagree that it's a considerable boost, but it's by no means certain enough to be relied upon as the lynchpin of your plan. Even Evil Sunz still fail that charge about three times out of ten.
I think your "lose 60 Boyz a turn" rule of thumb will need some testing out, since we've got a lot more tools to mitigate this now. Yeah, if there are just 90 boyz standing around on the table they won't last long against a gunline, but threat overload is always a good defense and now we have stratagems to keep them alive a bit longer. Plus one of those boyz units can come back on from any table edge for 3 CP. If you go second you've got prepared positions, and if you go first your lootas and mek guns can hopefully put a dent in the most dangerous things to your boyz. If you manage to get a unit of Skarboyz into combat with a Knight they'll actually do a little over 10 wounds thanks to the klan kultur, and you can spend the 3 CP to fight a second time and deal another 10 wounds to it after a pile in move, so it's not as hopeless as all that. If you've peeled a few wounds off it with mek guns or lootas the skarboyz should just be there to finish it off. Alternative is Evil Sunz boyz clear away the screen and then struggle to hurt the knight. Skarboyz can clear away the screen and then also finish off the knight.
Again, I'm not suggesting this is the optimal way of getting rid of a Knight, it isn't by any means. I'm just suggesting that, as tempting as it is to get sucked into the Evil Sunz kultur, it's worth trying out some builds centred around other clans to see how they do. On paper, I like the fact that Skarboyz lets you take Boyz confident that you can upgrade them to deal with big scary things that they'd normally struggle with, and still have the numbers to hold the board and chew through screening units. But most importantly, you can make the decision to make them skarboyz AFTER you know what you're up against.
tneva82 wrote: I'm scratch building mek guns so that one mek gun box+trukk box=4 mek guns.
This sounds interesting. Do you have some pics or advice for the process?
Lots of you tube input on this one - use the truck axles and wheels as the mek gun base, add truck parts to taste, mount mek gun barrel to result, profit.
Okay I have missed that. Do you have a page reference?
Yeah GW likes to put key rules in little boxes outside of the main body of text. It's at the bottom of page 132, underneath the generic warlord traits.
office_waaagh wrote: Plus one of those boyz units can come back on from any table edge for 3 CP.
Yeah. If opponent is stupid enough to conveniently leave them alive rather than wiping them out. That strategem does squash do if you are already dead unit.
The da jump+charge sucked before. S5 doesn't help at all for that as issue never was killing the target. Problem was getting that charge in the first place and failure being simple deletion even faster than if you hadn't da jumped in the first place.
office_waaagh wrote: I'm trying to make a case to myself for Flash Gitz because I love the models and I think there's a lot of potential there, it's just...not being able to make them bad moonz or death skullz really hurts their damage output relative to lootas or bustas that can double-shoot or re-roll wounds. The 4+ save and 2 wounds combined isn't enough to make up for the fact that they won't be able to use Grot Shields unless they're in a Freebooterz detachment.
I am super annoyed by this also. They started out in 3rd as the archetypal Bad Moonz unit and then got flanderized over the years into being so obnoxious about their guns that they get cast out and can only be Freebootaz.
office_waaagh wrote: Plus one of those boyz units can come back on from any table edge for 3 CP.
Yeah. If opponent is stupid enough to conveniently leave them alive rather than wiping them out. That strategem does squash do if you are already dead unit.
The da jump+charge sucked before. S5 doesn't help at all for that as issue never was killing the target. Problem was getting that charge in the first place and failure being simple deletion even faster than if you hadn't da jumped in the first place.
Hey dude, if you don't like it then don't try it. In the world where your opponent always kills boyz in exact multiples of 30 and completely wipes your units, you fail all your deep strike charges, and Knights always have their full wounds when you charge them, not much is going to work.
The comparison to Da Jump isn't great because with tellyporta, stormboyz, etc you can have multiple units appearing at once instead of just one per turn, which was a dicey prospect.
Like I keep saying, I'm not sure that this is a good idea, but I do think it's worth trying out. And I would very humbly suggest to you that your certainty that it isn't a good idea is not well founded, and you should be open to new ideas that don't necessarily align with your own pre-existing ideas and beliefs.
office_waaagh wrote: Plus one of those boyz units can come back on from any table edge for 3 CP.
Yeah. If opponent is stupid enough to conveniently leave them alive rather than wiping them out. That strategem does squash do if you are already dead unit.
The da jump+charge sucked before. S5 doesn't help at all for that as issue never was killing the target. Problem was getting that charge in the first place and failure being simple deletion even faster than if you hadn't da jumped in the first place.
Hey dude, if you don't like it then don't try it. In the world where your opponent always kills boyz in exact multiples of 30 and completely wipes your units, you fail all your deep strike charges, and Knights always have their full wounds when you charge them, not much is going to work.
The comparison to Da Jump isn't great because with tellyporta, stormboyz, etc you can have multiple units appearing at once instead of just one per turn, which was a dicey prospect.
Like I keep saying, I'm not sure that this is a good idea, but I do think it's worth trying out. And I would very humbly suggest to you that your certainty that it isn't a good idea is not well founded, and you should be open to new ideas that don't necessarily align with your own pre-existing ideas and beliefs.
Who says they kill them in exactly 30's? I'm not expecting them to be "oh let's leave that unit resurrecting and shoot elsewhere because I might kill 2-3 orks more!". That would be stupid. I don't plan on enemy being idiot. What happens when you do that and face non-idiot(most of players)? Answer: You get screwed.
If your grand plan hinges on opponent playing like brain dead idiot then that's not good idea. And the "kill resurrecting unit with slight overkill rather than leave it alive" is fairly standard move that's been known for oh over a year.
But sure. Keep counting "I'm only playing against brain dead idiots" mantra. That's going to work!
office_waaagh wrote: Plus one of those boyz units can come back on from any table edge for 3 CP.
Yeah. If opponent is stupid enough to conveniently leave them alive rather than wiping them out. That strategem does squash do if you are already dead unit.
The da jump+charge sucked before. S5 doesn't help at all for that as issue never was killing the target. Problem was getting that charge in the first place and failure being simple deletion even faster than if you hadn't da jumped in the first place.
Hey dude, if you don't like it then don't try it. In the world where your opponent always kills boyz in exact multiples of 30 and completely wipes your units, you fail all your deep strike charges, and Knights always have their full wounds when you charge them, not much is going to work.
The comparison to Da Jump isn't great because with tellyporta, stormboyz, etc you can have multiple units appearing at once instead of just one per turn, which was a dicey prospect.
Like I keep saying, I'm not sure that this is a good idea, but I do think it's worth trying out. And I would very humbly suggest to you that your certainty that it isn't a good idea is not well founded, and you should be open to new ideas that don't necessarily align with your own pre-existing ideas and beliefs.
Who says they kill them in exactly 30's? I'm not expecting them to be "oh let's leave that unit resurrecting and shoot elsewhere because I might kill 2-3 orks more!". That would be stupid. I don't plan on enemy being idiot. What happens when you do that and face non-idiot(most of players)? Answer: You get screwed.
If your grand plan hinges on opponent playing like brain dead idiot then that's not good idea. And the "kill resurrecting unit with slight overkill rather than leave it alive" is fairly standard move that's been known for oh over a year.
But sure. Keep counting "I'm only playing against brain dead idiots" mantra. That's going to work!
I genuinely can't tell if you're serious or not. Possibly you don't know what you're talking about? Irrespective of the fact that you're getting really, really hung up on that one stratagem for some bizarre reason, I don't think you can reasonably claim that units of boyz are only ever either at full strength or wiped out. Tide of traitors gets used fairly often, as I understand it, which does basically the same thing.
I think maybe you need to take a deep breath and calm down, your tone suggests you're getting a bit worked up. At the end of the day it's fine to say "well, office_waaagh, I don't think that's a good idea, but by all means try it and let me know if it works! It would be great to be surprised by an effective new strategy that I wouldn't have thought to try." This is a much more pleasant response to someone you disagree with than "your ideas are bad and you should feel bad because you are a bad person". Relax, mate, we're all friends here.
Guys you're suggesting Tellyporting (2cp) everything and all boyz are going to use Endless Green Tide (3cp) and oh also you better use Fight Twice (3cp) every chance you get... I mean how are you farming all those CPs?
Weazel wrote: Guys you're suggesting Tellyporting (2cp) everything and all boyz are going to use Endless Green Tide (3cp) and oh also you better use Fight Twice (3cp) every chance you get... I mean how are you farming all those CPs?
Yeah, CP's would definitely be tight. Not to mention the CPs to put Skarboyz on boyz units. You can only use Endless Green Tide once per game, but it's still expensive. I'd bring at least 2 battallions and ideally a brigade + batallion, hopefully sitting somewhere in the 15-20 CP range to start with, and then prioritize stratagems according to what you're facing. I probably wouldn't deep strike 3 units of Boyz in the first place though. But I'll have to see whether in practice dumping all the CP into one big skarboy tellyport assault on turn 2 is worth it or not. My instinct says no, but I don't like to discount things until I try them in practice.
Weazel wrote: Guys you're suggesting Tellyporting (2cp) everything and all boyz are going to use Endless Green Tide (3cp) and oh also you better use Fight Twice (3cp) every chance you get... I mean how are you farming all those CPs?
That too. Let's see. Tellyporting 3 mobs of goffs(guess 2 can do on a pinch if you don't mind bit unreliability)=9 CP. Green tide=12CP. Fight twice=15. Prepared position=17. Maybe he's even planning to use show off with lootas since he's planning to make big dent with them=20. Hopefully he's not then planning to get extra gubbins, mob up, grot shield etc.
With 90 boyz that's also going to be like 660 pts and 3 battallions=6 HQ's and apart from weirdboys which are max 3 we don't have cheap HQ's and none which are really great for teleporting ones(especially as you most def can't afford deep strike those as well. Maybe if your plan was to use blood axe strategem for boyz and characters but then no skarboys)...So brigade+2 battallions(which would be needed for above CP usage) with 90 boyz and big mob of lootas is going to be tricky fit in 2k...
And 1 unit of skarboyz while more manageable then has that 42% and you are dead. And even if you charge you are struggling to get all into b2b contact. Likely the long side is going to be screened so you are facing the sideway moving narrow side for your 9" charge.
Weazel wrote: Guys you're suggesting Tellyporting (2cp) everything and all boyz are going to use Endless Green Tide (3cp) and oh also you better use Fight Twice (3cp) every chance you get... I mean how are you farming all those CPs?
That too. Let's see. Tellyporting 3 mobs of goffs(guess 2 can do on a pinch if you don't mind bit unreliability)=9 CP. Green tide=12CP. Fight twice=15. Prepared position=17. Maybe he's even planning to use show off with lootas since he's planning to make big dent with them=20. Hopefully he's not then planning to get extra gubbins, mob up, grot shield etc.
With 90 boyz that's also going to be like 660 pts and 3 battallions=6 HQ's and apart from weirdboys which are max 3 we don't have cheap HQ's and none which are really great for teleporting ones(especially as you most def can't afford deep strike those as well. Maybe if your plan was to use blood axe strategem for boyz and characters but then no skarboys)...So brigade+2 battallions(which would be needed for above CP usage) with 90 boyz and big mob of lootas is going to be tricky fit in 2k...
And 1 unit of skarboyz while more manageable then has that 42% and you are dead. And even if you charge you are struggling to get all into b2b contact. Likely the long side is going to be screened so you are facing the sideway moving narrow side for your 9" charge.
Yeah, good points for sure. I've made a couple of sample lists and the best I can do is brigade+battalion for 20 CP. Could tellyport one unit and da jump another maybe, if you wanted to go that way. There are definitely pitfalls. I'll have to see how survivable 90 boyz are on the table now against different opponents. Up to now I've always been bringing 120-160.
With the new codex I'd like to try two different kinds of lists: a mechanized one with transports, artillery and probably the new missiles buggy and another on focussed on 3 deep striking units, which are 30 boyz, 30 stormboyz and 5+ Meganobz (maybe 3 Deff Dreads instead). Eventually I could also add 15 kommandos but probably only in very relaxed games.
I'm not in favor of a gunline because orks shooting, even with the buffs, it's not amazing anyway. I've already got drukhari for that
I'm also not sure about farming tons of CPs: the only effective way seems to be spamming gretchins which don't benefit from stratagems.
I think the green tide took a serious hit, and I'm frankly happy with that.
What about Ghaz? Is he really dead with the codex? I usually never played him before, because IMHO he was overrated, but now that his +1A aura got nerfed and the Relic Klaw makes a regular Warboss a fighter as good as Ghaz I really don't see the legendary ork as the go-to leader for an ork army.
The Skarboyz stratagem could be very effective on embarked squads of boyz I think. My army is painted as goffs so I'm going to stick with the WYSIWYG kultur for now.
Blackie wrote: With the new codex I'd like to try two different kinds of lists: a mechanized one with transports, artillery and probably the new missiles buggy and another on focussed on 3 deep striking units, which are 30 boyz, 30 stormboyz and 5+ Meganobz (maybe 3 Deff Dreads instead). Eventually I could also add 15 kommandos but probably only in very relaxed games.
Not sold on deepstrike for 30 strong stormboyz. If they are evil sun they have 15+7+2d6+1=30" charge range(so get in combat vs stuff 31" away) in one turn provided you have either bike warboss or da jump warboss nearby. That's enough to cause serious T1 threat range and more likely to succeed against many targets than DS+charge! (especially since you use goff) DS stormboyz would be more like for small squads to capture objectives preferably in turn 3 IMO.
BTW not sure is the stormboy change good or bad. 6" advance rather than d6 makes for hell of a fast but you lose 1/6 of squad that way. There's also no way to overcome that like it was before with warboss. Also as the new trike HQ doesn't help them it's either warboss(slow so hard to keep up without da jump) or warboss on bike(not legal for everybody).
I'm also not sure about farming tons of CPs: the only effective way seems to be spamming gretchins which don't benefit from stratagems.
You don't use gretchins to any strategems anyway even if they were legal. They are there for objective control at backfield in which role boyz flat out suck, board control(ditto) and grot shield.
But yeah with boyz dead except for deep striking mucha cp requires grots. Good thing I have 120 of those!
Greentide strat is very powerful. Not just because you get boyz back but for several other reasons:
- you get an outflank
- you annoy your opponents. Sure, with split fire they can generally kill < half of the squad and than go back to killing stuff turn 2 but that's not always possible due to many opponents packing tons of firepower they don't want to waste. And than you use grot shields and get multiple deepstrikes in turn one with dajump and egt (endless greentide).
The fun part is that even with slower grots you can afford to leave part of the ork swuad behind the grot shield - that's gona be lagging behind if you play footslogging evil sunz.
You can leave a couple boyz out of los and than save this last boy with a grot screen.
Opponents can't alwayz wipe the whole squad - especially later on in the game when your opponent has taken casualties allready.
30 boyz turn 1 don't seem that much. 30 boyz returning turn 4 is huge.
What would you guys say is better:
Battlewagon with KFF mek for 5++ with 19 (18 if index is banned) Tank bustas
OR
2 trucks 10 tank bustas each with a big mek on bike with KFF trailing along 5++'ing both
works out the sameish pts.
Also:
One thing thats slipped the tactics radar i have noticed is we do have that new 2cp strat so everything starts in cover... kinda imo makes blood axes 18" thing even worse.
I'm also not sure about farming tons of CPs: the only effective way seems to be spamming gretchins which don't benefit from stratagems.
There is such a thing as 10 man boyz-squads. Minimum-squads with one or two rokkit-launchas could be usefull, especially for Death Skulzz. You should be able to take a cheap batallion for 350-400 points even without taking grots.
pismakron wrote: There is such a thing as 10 man boyz-squads. Minimum-squads with one or two rokkit-launchas could be usefull, especially for Death Skulzz. You should be able to take a cheap batallion for 350-400 points even without taking grots.
10 strong boyz are horribly expensive and softer than grots are. Yea the rokkit is nice with death skulls(only with death skulls) but 82 pts for soft rokkit launcha? What other purpose those have? For chaff/objective holding/board control the much tougher grots are better option.
pismakron wrote: There is such a thing as 10 man boyz-squads. Minimum-squads with one or two rokkit-launchas could be usefull, especially for Death Skulzz. You should be able to take a cheap batallion for 350-400 points even without taking grots.
10 strong boyz are horribly expensive and softer than grots are. Yea the rokkit is nice with death skulls(only with death skulls) but 82 pts for soft rokkit launcha? What other purpose those have? For chaff/objective holding/board control the much tougher grots are better option.
The grots are only tougher if you give them a runtherd, and then only mildy so. The purpose of 10 man boyz squads is to walk, not advance, towards objectives or enemy scouts/rangers/stragglers. And when they encounter something mildly tougher, then they can do a bit of damage with their rerollable BC/rokkit/tankbustabomb. And if you want to, you can give them a trukk, making them extremely tough. And trukks are going to be one of the most usefull ork units in the codex, even without any passengers.
I am not saying that this is some kind of superb strategy, just that there are alternatives to 3x10 grots.
I'm convinced I need 2 Bonebreakers full of Nobz and a Battlewagon full (or nearly full) of Tankbustas, Evil Sunz obviously. The problem is that's a hefty amount of points and the only way to get them to fit in a double battalion let alone a brigade is to go 60 Grots. But I don't really want to go 60 Grots...
How would you fill the rest of the list to get a reasonable amount of CPs?
Would you just keep 1 Battalion and try to live with those 8-9 CPs and stack up on more heavy hitters?
No Knights in our meta so no need to prepare for that.
pismakron wrote: The grots are only tougher if you give them a runtherd, and then only mildy so. The purpose of 10 man boyz squads is to walk, not advance, towards objectives or enemy scouts/rangers/stragglers. And when they encounter something mildly tougher, then they can do a bit of damage with their rerollable BC/rokkit/tankbustabomb. And if you want to, you can give them a trukk, making them extremely tough. And trukks are going to be one of the most usefull ork units in the codex, even without any passengers.
I am not saying that this is some kind of superb strategy, just that there are alternatives to 3x10 grots.
The runtherd isn't required to flat out be tougher vs S4 guns(and advantage only keeps getting bigger the higher S is) than orks. And that was before boys got 1/6 price hike! Seeing how common S4 gun is now that grots are even MORE tough(being already tougher in index) it's safe to say grots are...Well even tougher than boys than they were when they were already tougher.
Weazel wrote: I'm convinced I need 2 Bonebreakers full of Nobz and a Battlewagon full (or nearly full) of Tankbustas, Evil Sunz obviously. The problem is that's a hefty amount of points and the only way to get them to fit in a double battalion let alone a brigade is to go 60 Grots. But I don't really want to go 60 Grots...
How would you fill the rest of the list to get a reasonable amount of CPs?
Would you just keep 1 Battalion and try to live with those 8-9 CPs and stack up on more heavy hitters?
No Knights in our meta so no need to prepare for that.
Maybe fill one of the bonebreakers with boyz instead of nobz? Not the same punch obviously but quite a bit cheaper plus you "only" need 50 grots then. But yeah, it's a shame how common of a sight the 10 man grot blobs are going to become. I sort of feel that the specialist detchments should've been bumped to 2CP when battalion & brigade went up. And obviously I'm gutted that warbikers aren't troops for evil sunz speed freeks
Weazel wrote: I'm convinced I need 2 Bonebreakers full of Nobz and a Battlewagon full (or nearly full) of Tankbustas, Evil Sunz obviously. The problem is that's a hefty amount of points and the only way to get them to fit in a double battalion let alone a brigade is to go 60 Grots. But I don't really want to go 60 Grots...
How would you fill the rest of the list to get a reasonable amount of CPs?
Would you just keep 1 Battalion and try to live with those 8-9 CPs and stack up on more heavy hitters?
No Knights in our meta so no need to prepare for that.
Clan Kultur: Evil Sunz
+ HQ +
Deffkilla Wartrike
Weirdboy
Weirdboy
Weirdboy
+ Troops +
Boyz
. Boss Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. 29x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa
Boyz
. Boss Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. 29x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa
But generally speaking I'd be wary of filling up a battlewagon with tankbustas. That seems like a too juicy of a target in my mind. If you don't get T1 then they'll blow it up and even if you can hide your tankbustas out of LoS so they themselves are safe you don't have another transport big enough for them to jump into.
That's my reason for putting them into a trukk, and having another unit in a trukk alongside them. So if the opportunity presents itself they might have another chance to become trukkbustas.
Weazel wrote: I'm convinced I need 2 Bonebreakers full of Nobz and a Battlewagon full (or nearly full) of Tankbustas, Evil Sunz obviously. The problem is that's a hefty amount of points and the only way to get them to fit in a double battalion let alone a brigade is to go 60 Grots. But I don't really want to go 60 Grots...
How would you fill the rest of the list to get a reasonable amount of CPs?
Would you just keep 1 Battalion and try to live with those 8-9 CPs and stack up on more heavy hitters?
No Knights in our meta so no need to prepare for that.
Spoiler:
Clan Kultur: Evil Sunz
+ HQ +
Deffkilla Wartrike
Weirdboy
Weirdboy
Weirdboy
+ Troops +
Boyz
. Boss Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. 29x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa
Boyz
. Boss Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. 29x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa
Howabout that? Though you need some room from somewhere to fit in some gear for nobs(I REALLY hate how battlescribe handles equipment for nobs).
Can't come up with much better than that. Cramming up CP's with those is tough. Still 40 grots but better than 60 eh?
edit: One room for gear is 3rd weirdboy. Misclicked 1 more than intended
Well this is pretty close to what I came up with, however I only have one Weirdboy, going to get a second at some point but three is really pushing it. Also a KFF would be pretty nifty to have in case I lose first turn.
Any good alternatives to Deffkoptas, modelwise? I don't have the Black Reach koptas and the one that GW sells is a horrible, horrible model. I can only think of the one that Kromlech sells. Maybe I'll pick up a few and some of their new Grot sculpts as well.
3 weirdboys was misclick from my part. Wasn't intending 4 HQ's when 3 is minimum! Though warboss with the nobs could work I suppose. Went for the new super useful trike HQ and then wanted 2 cheap ones to fill brigade so weirdboys it is which can be used to save CP(da jump T1 rather than tellyporta. Especially if you were planning to deep strike bonebreakas and nobs to keep 50% on board) or buff character but guess relic power klaw warboss could be neat to have...
KFF is bit expensive. Are you planning to use this for tournament? Noticed lately at least tournaments I go in Finland have index banned so no KFF except morkanaut, that flyer or mega armour big mek.
No idea for deth koptas. Need to figure some myself as well. Alternative 3x5 stormboyz and use them for objective grabbing if you can fit them to reserves still.
pismakron wrote: The grots are only tougher if you give them a runtherd, and then only mildy so. The purpose of 10 man boyz squads is to walk, not advance, towards objectives or enemy scouts/rangers/stragglers. And when they encounter something mildly tougher, then they can do a bit of damage with their rerollable BC/rokkit/tankbustabomb. And if you want to, you can give them a trukk, making them extremely tough. And trukks are going to be one of the most usefull ork units in the codex, even without any passengers.
I am not saying that this is some kind of superb strategy, just that there are alternatives to 3x10 grots.
The runtherd isn't required to flat out be tougher vs S4 guns(and advantage only keeps getting bigger the higher S is) than orks. And that was before boys got 1/6 price hike! Seeing how common S4 gun is now that grots are even MORE tough(being already tougher in index) it's safe to say grots are...Well even tougher than boys than they were when they were already tougher.
How do you reckon that? As I see it, Boyz that benefit from the mob rule are straight up tougher against S4 than Grots without a runtherd. And to add to what I said before, the Death Skullz clan trait makes that stupid wrecking ball on the trukk into a half decent weapon. Maybe running Grots in Trukks should be a way to get CP's. The grots can shoot when the trukk is in CC.
Anvildude wrote: Hol' on, so the Bonebreaka- when you say 'no limitation' that doesn't mean 'can take as many as it wants of anything', does it?
No limitation meant that it can take everything the battlewagon can take, which is:
- Up to four big shootas
- Killkannon or Kannon or Zzap gun
- one Lobba
- Grot riggers, grabbin' klaw, wreckin' ball, stikkbomb chukka
. Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa . Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa . Nob: Choppa, Choppa . Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa . Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa . Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa . Nob: Choppa, Choppa . Nob: Choppa, Choppa . Nob: Choppa, Choppa . Nob: Choppa, Choppa
Sounds like an ork song
On topic, I really like that list. I'm going to steal it, with a minor change: Since I'm blood axes, I will have 3x 20 boyz using the blood axe stratagem to hide instead of 30+30+10.
pismakron wrote: The grots are only tougher if you give them a runtherd, and then only mildy so. The purpose of 10 man boyz squads is to walk, not advance, towards objectives or enemy scouts/rangers/stragglers. And when they encounter something mildly tougher, then they can do a bit of damage with their rerollable BC/rokkit/tankbustabomb. And if you want to, you can give them a trukk, making them extremely tough. And trukks are going to be one of the most usefull ork units in the codex, even without any passengers.
I am not saying that this is some kind of superb strategy, just that there are alternatives to 3x10 grots.
The runtherd isn't required to flat out be tougher vs S4 guns(and advantage only keeps getting bigger the higher S is) than orks. And that was before boys got 1/6 price hike! Seeing how common S4 gun is now that grots are even MORE tough(being already tougher in index) it's safe to say grots are...Well even tougher than boys than they were when they were already tougher.
How do you reckon that? As I see it, Boyz that benefit from the mob rule are straight up tougher against S4 than Grots without a runtherd. And to add to what I said before, the Death Skullz clan trait makes that stupid wrecking ball on the trukk into a half decent weapon. Maybe running Grots in Trukks should be a way to get CP's. The grots can shoot when the trukk is in CC.
S4 wounds T2 less than twice as often as T4. You have more than twice as much grots as you have boyz.
Also you don't btw need runtherd. Warboss will do just as well.
What about 6x10 Boyz in 3 BWs as the core of two battallions? With 13-14 CPs I could mob some of those units up and make them decent in combat thanks to the Skarboyz and/or the Fight Twice strategems combined to the Goffs kultur bonus. The main problem would be the slow footslogging HQs if biker ones from the index are not allowed. Mixing trukks and BW only for troops and characters sounds too expensive if I have to embark 6 troops choices but maybe I could try it as well.
Maybe 4x10 boyz in 2 BWs and 2x10 Grots would be a more realistic and flexible choice.
For mob up you need to disembark and it's 2 squads a turn max(and if other squads end up losing just 1-2 per squad they can't even be mobbed up) so that's...not good. And having them on small squads is going to be less efficient than in one big squad. 3x20 and 3x10 grots would be better.
S4 wounds T2 less than twice as often as T4. You have more than twice as much grots as you have boyz.
Also you don't btw need runtherd. Warboss will do just as well.
Yes, but are you going to have a warboss camping on an objective? Your above calculation only holds true if you ignore morale and the cost of mitigating it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Blackie wrote: What about 6x10 Boyz in 3 BWs as the core of two battallions? With 13-14 CPs I could mob some of those units up and make them decent in combat thanks to the Skarboyz and/or the Fight Twice strategems combined to the Goffs kultur bonus. The main problem would be the slow footslogging HQs if biker ones from the index are not allowed. Mixing trukks and BW only for troops and characters sounds too expensive if I have to embark 6 troops choices but maybe I could try it as well.
Maybe 4x10 boyz in 2 BWs and 2x10 Grots would be a more realistic and flexible choice.
A BW with 2x10 boyz is 260 points. Two trukks with 2x10 boyz is 268 points (274 with wrecking balls)). If you want the open topped option, then the trukks are more durable and can bring a couple of characters along. I definitely think that Death SKullz are the best choice for a MSU trukk-list. Otherwise take a blood axe battlewagon with 2x10 boyz and deepstrike your HQ for one CP per character, using the blood axe dead-sneaky stratagem.
Yes, but are you going to have a warboss camping on an objective? Your above calculation only holds true if you ignore morale and the cost of mitigating it.
For example 12 hits, 8 grots die, 2 more to morale. 5 boyz die, 2.5 more boyz die to morale=7.5 boy die. You have lost 52.5 pts vs 30.
The morale hurts more only when you are talking about in very specific cases.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Morkphoiz wrote: Can anyone give me a tip on Warbikes? Should I run a lot of small units for free bosses or few larger units?
1 big unit. The -1 to hit protects only from 1. They are still too expensive to run multiple big squads and are super soft without that -1 to hit so maximise it's efficiency. Lots of small squads is only sensible if you already have 1 maxed out squad of bikes
Morkphoiz wrote: Can anyone give me a tip on Warbikes? Should I run a lot of small units for free bosses or few larger units?
I like to run them in smaller units. Sure, the stratagems aren't worth to chuck on 3/4 man bike mobs but they become really flexible, especially if you're evil sunz. Then they're super quick harassing units that still shoot well (for Orks that is) and you get the boss nob in a greater ratio than in large units. 3 bikes, where one is a boss nob with a killsaw+choppa is 84 points. That's a pretty decent deal for the amount of chaff clearance, speed and potential elite killing that unit brings. The cheapo option, with 2 bkes plus the nob with 2 choppas is 69 points if you just want them for capping objectives/clearing screens/soaking up overwatch.
Their pure offensive output isn't that scary per point even with the 4 point drop IMO, but now I really feel like they could find a place in several different builds.
For example 12 hits, 8 grots die, 2 more to morale. 5 boyz die, 2.5 more boyz die to morale=7.5 boy die. You have lost 52.5 pts vs 30.
The morale hurts more only when you are talking about in very specific cases.
No. On average more points of grots will be lost to S4 attacks, when the boyz are benefitting from mob rule (as in three 10 model squads standing next to each other). The exception is when the grots have a runtherd or warboss to buff them.
For example 12 hits, 8 grots die, 2 more to morale. 5 boyz die, 2.5 more boyz die to morale=7.5 boy die. You have lost 52.5 pts vs 30.
The morale hurts more only when you are talking about in very specific cases.
No. On average more points of grots will be lost to S4 attacks, when the boyz are benefitting from mob rule (as in three 10 model squads standing next to each other). The exception is when the grots have a runtherd or warboss to buff them.
If you have 30 boyz guarding objective that's loooooooots of points just sitting duck there and at that point might just as well factor in support for grots.
Also enemy can shoot at middle squad and side squad and so much for the morale bonus. Here's what my opponents learned to do ages ago.
Mob1(30 strong) Mob2(30 strong) Mob3(30 strong)
Blow up 20 from Mob2 and mob3(easy as stealing candy from kid). Mob3 has whopping LD10 and 20 casualties. Next turn blow hole to mob1 and squad next to it and again casualties. Scale tactic to 10 sized mobs and that rule loses meaning.
And of course 10 grots can simply die in the first place negating morale worry to begin with. And seriously? 210 pts to guard one objective? What a waste of points. Good luck trying to win games with strategy like that.
S4 wounds T2 less than twice as often as T4. You have more than twice as much grots as you have boyz.
Also you don't btw need runtherd. Warboss will do just as well.
Yes, but are you going to have a warboss camping on an objective? Your above calculation only holds true if you ignore morale and the cost of mitigating it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Blackie wrote: What about 6x10 Boyz in 3 BWs as the core of two battallions? With 13-14 CPs I could mob some of those units up and make them decent in combat thanks to the Skarboyz and/or the Fight Twice strategems combined to the Goffs kultur bonus. The main problem would be the slow footslogging HQs if biker ones from the index are not allowed. Mixing trukks and BW only for troops and characters sounds too expensive if I have to embark 6 troops choices but maybe I could try it as well.
Maybe 4x10 boyz in 2 BWs and 2x10 Grots would be a more realistic and flexible choice.
A BW with 2x10 boyz is 260 points. Two trukks with 2x10 boyz is 268 points (274 with wrecking balls)). If you want the open topped option, then the trukks are more durable and can bring a couple of characters along. I definitely think that Death SKullz are the best choice for a MSU trukk-list. Otherwise take a blood axe battlewagon with 2x10 boyz and deepstrike your HQ for one CP per character, using the blood axe dead-sneaky stratagem.
In my oppinion, boyz should not be riding in battlewagons unless they are goff scarboyz. For all other clans, you can get just as much killing power from a much more survivable unit of nobz, which also fit into a bonebreaka.
The awesome part about a bonebreaka is the transport pulling its own weight, so it's not pure tax on the unit like the trukk or basic battlewagons are.
In general, boyz have not changed much from the index, and back then charging 20 out of a wagon was very underwhelming.
For example 12 hits, 8 grots die, 2 more to morale. 5 boyz die, 2.5 more boyz die to morale=7.5 boy die. You have lost 52.5 pts vs 30.
The morale hurts more only when you are talking about in very specific cases.
No. On average more points of grots will be lost to S4 attacks, when the boyz are benefitting from mob rule (as in three 10 model squads standing next to each other). The exception is when the grots have a runtherd or warboss to buff them.
If you have 30 boyz guarding objective that's loooooooots of points just sitting duck there and at that point might just as well factor in support for grots.
Also enemy can shoot at middle squad and side squad and so much for the morale bonus. Here's what my opponents learned to do ages ago.
Mob1(30 strong) Mob2(30 strong) Mob3(30 strong)
Blow up 20 from Mob2 and mob3(easy as stealing candy from kid). Mob3 has whopping LD10 and 20 casualties. Next turn blow hole to mob1 and squad next to it and again casualties. Scale tactic to 10 sized mobs and that rule loses meaning.
And of course 10 grots can simply die in the first place negating morale worry to begin with. And seriously? 210 pts to guard one objective? What a waste of points. Good luck trying to win games with strategy like that.
You are the only one who talked about guarding an objective. I specifically talked about fielding and engaging with 3x10 units of Death SKull boyz. And you made the claim that grotz would be tougher points for point. And that claim is only tue with a runtherd or warboss nearby.
In my oppinion, boyz should not be riding in battlewagons unless they are goff scarboyz. For all other clans, you can get just as much killing power from a much more survivable unit of nobz, which also fit into a bonebreaka.
The awesome part about a bonebreaka is the transport pulling its own weight, so it's not pure tax on the unit like the trukk or basic battlewagons are.
In general, boyz have not changed much from the index, and back then charging 20 out of a wagon was very underwhelming.
Nobz cant act like a CP battery. And the bonebreaka is 159 points for a transport capacity of 12.
Grots are better choice for cp battery as they are cheaper and can be used as shields for better units. I agree wth the assessment on use of nobs. Even on my evil sunz army they will have 6 attacks with double choppa and buffed by warpath. Just played a tournament against a An ork army me on Codex release day with lots of boys and it did terrible. In my meta green tide never did well and truck boys were abysmal. I would not call my meta very competitive
In my oppinion, boyz should not be riding in battlewagons unless they are goff scarboyz. For all other clans, you can get just as much killing power from a much more survivable unit of nobz, which also fit into a bonebreaka.
The awesome part about a bonebreaka is the transport pulling its own weight, so it's not pure tax on the unit like the trukk or basic battlewagons are.
In general, boyz have not changed much from the index, and back then charging 20 out of a wagon was very underwhelming.
12 Nobz or 10 Nobz + 2 Runts are very expensive if embarked in a Bonebreaka. The vehicle becomes priority target and it's not going to reach combat in a single battle. I'd rather put Nobz in a trukk and boyz in Bonebreakas.
I'm not sure that a standard Battlewagon is a pure tax compared to a Bonebreaka. The Battlewagon can also have a Deff Rolla so basically it trades that average of +3/4 attacks with a transport capacity of +8 bodies and a cost of -20 points. 6 attacks with the Rolla aren't garbage compared to 9-10 with the same weapon, that can also be just 7 with a bad roll on the D6.
I agree about the Skarboyz suggestion but since my army is painted as Goffs I'd like to use that stratagem a lot. At least for the first weeks I'm going WYSIWYG with the kultur choice.
1) Kommandos; if you are using a min squad of Kommandos to grab objectives from deepstrike, is it worth spending the extra points for the boss nob and powerclaw?
2) MSU on certain units; given the unreliability or fragileness of some units, is it a must to have a larger squad? Specifically, is 5 Lootas or Tankbustas going to do anything other than die?
Thoughts:
Blood Axes are looking pretty good for surviving turn 1 with mobs of boyz on the field. The clan trait will kick in, and if you really need it, the army wide +1 will make your grot shield only trigger if you fail a 4+ save. With a batt of BAs you would also qualify for the BA warlord strat of regaining all the CPs you're spending .
For example 12 hits, 8 grots die, 2 more to morale. 5 boyz die, 2.5 more boyz die to morale=7.5 boy die. You have lost 52.5 pts vs 30.
The morale hurts more only when you are talking about in very specific cases.
No. On average more points of grots will be lost to S4 attacks, when the boyz are benefitting from mob rule (as in three 10 model squads standing next to each other). The exception is when the grots have a runtherd or warboss to buff them.
If you have 30 boyz guarding objective that's loooooooots of points just sitting duck there and at that point might just as well factor in support for grots.
Also enemy can shoot at middle squad and side squad and so much for the morale bonus. Here's what my opponents learned to do ages ago.
Mob1(30 strong) Mob2(30 strong) Mob3(30 strong)
Blow up 20 from Mob2 and mob3(easy as stealing candy from kid). Mob3 has whopping LD10 and 20 casualties. Next turn blow hole to mob1 and squad next to it and again casualties. Scale tactic to 10 sized mobs and that rule loses meaning.
And of course 10 grots can simply die in the first place negating morale worry to begin with. And seriously? 210 pts to guard one objective? What a waste of points. Good luck trying to win games with strategy like that.
You are the only one who talked about guarding an objective. I specifically talked about fielding and engaging with 3x10 units of Death SKull boyz. And you made the claim that grotz would be tougher points for point. And that claim is only tue with a runtherd or warboss nearby.
You are both right on this in my oppinion. Boyz are way better than gretchin for units that are pushing forward to take objectives from your enemies or just kill stuff. A warboss will be somewhere to mitigate morale and you need the additional durability to S4-7 because you are actually running straight at bolters, assault cannons and the like. Gretchin die too fast and will leave huge holes that expose your characters, plus they do too little when they actually do reach your opponent.
However, in 8th, especially when playing ITC or maelstrom games, you need some units that just sit on objectives somewhere to score points and prevent some jetbikes/scouts/nurglings from just jumping on them for easy points. Unless you are running deff skulls, gretchin are the best units for that job, since you are loosing the least points from just having them sit there all game.
In general, neither boyz nor gretchin will be doing anything while sitting in the backfield, so you want as little points taken from your main force as possible. Any weapon shot at gretchin will be a wast of points, so it really doesn't matter a lot if they are less survivable than boyz - in reality, anything that will wipe out 10 gretchin usually does the same to 10 boyz.
Nobz cant act like a CP battery.
6x 10 boyz are 420 points, add six klaws and you are at 498 points. Add three bare bone battlewagons and you are at 858 points. That's not a CP battery, that's something Grey Knights make fun of because they can generate CP more efficiently.
Just for comparison: 60 Gretchin and two SAG meks and two weird boyz are 464 for 10 CP.
And the bonebreaka is 159 points for a transport capacity of 12.
Bonebreaka is a 159 point monstrous creatures that happens to be transporting nobz.
I gota say im loving the new orks. Plenty of build options. Ive been playong AM in 8th but have dusted off my green horde upon purchasing the codex.
Id appreciate thoughts on my list.
Deathskulls spearhead
1xBig mek with shokk gun
3x Mek gunz (traktor cannons)
I know only the big mek gets the kultur but the deathskulls rerolls are ideal for the unreliable shokk gun. Am i right that he'll be able to repair the gunz? For 170 points total i think these guys pack a punch
Evil Sunz brigade
1 x wartrike with kunnin but brutal
1x warboss on bike
1 x big mek with kff and redder armour
1x nob with banner
1 x painboy
1 x 5 nobz in mega armour
1 x 30 boyz
1 x 20 boyz
1 x 18 boyz
3 x 10 grots
3 x 3 bikers nobz with pk
3 x battlewagons with deffrollas
16 CPs
I can get it down to 13 drops (elites and boyz either in battlewagon or telaporting in (can we definitely use the telaport strat multiple time pre game)
I havent gone for the bonebrekka for points reasons. I will definitely be telaporting the nob with a banner as this will ensure he can land nearest the cc where hes +1 to hit will do the most damage.
Im torn as to whether i should telaport the meganobz on their own or in a battlewagon. The 3d6 charge strat would result in a good chance of the deff rolla making its charge after Deep strike. Battlewagons dont get ere we go though.
If i didnt telaport one of the battlewagons id start all 3 battlewagons filled with boyz and a painboy within 9" of the kff. If i get turn one ill just jump the big mek into a battlewagon go hell for leather. If i go second the kff combined with the prepped position means the battlewagon will be 3+ 4++(that plus 1 to cover works on invulnerable saves right) The wartrike would mean they could charge after moving between 15" and 20".
kunnin but brutal looks to gel well with evil sunz with the ability to redeploy the battlewagons/bikes and wartrike near the enemies closest units. Further supporting a t1 charge.
If i went with the 3 x battlewagon rush id have to drop one of the boyz squad from 30 to 20. This lowers the possibility of the greentide strat being used and means its highly unlikely none of my boyz will ever get the +1 attack for being over 20.
The drop from 30 to 20 boyz woukd allow me to change the big mek with kff and boss on bike with mega armour big mek and another wartrike respectively removing all index models (if that was ever an issue)
The kff prepped position combo looks quality in the event i go second although obviously a turn one charge would ukd benefit fot me more.
Bonebreaka is a 159 point monstrous creatures that happens to be transporting nobz.
+1. You can't underestimate the bonebreaker. It does more average damage in CC then a gorkanaut, moves faster, and transports twice as many things. Plus its half the cost!
The hitting on 2+ is really the key here. If the Gork was 2+ in CC, it would balance back out, but the 3+ hurts the gork's 18 attacks at str 8, vs the bonebreakers average 9 with a 2+ at Str 9.
Bonebreaka is a 159 point monstrous creatures that happens to be transporting nobz.
+1. You can't underestimate the bonebreaker. It does more average damage in CC then a gorkanaut, moves faster, and transports twice as many things. Plus its half the cost!
The hitting on 2+ is really the key here. If the Gork was 2+ in CC, it would balance back out, but the 3+ hurts the gork's 18 attacks at str 8, vs the bonebreakers average 9 with a 2+ at Str 9.
Agreed, I've only had the chance to play with the new codex once in a small game so far but that bonebreaka is insane. I've always loved the deffrolla battlewagon so I'm stoked about that, the imagery of it all is just perfect for a mad max fan such as myself.
Not really sure what to put in them though, since I'll be running 2. Obvious answer is Nobsquads I guess but that'll end up being quite a few points. They are good enough to stand on their own without being a transport IMO so even a 12-man boyz squad could work. I really want to squeeze in as many of the new buggies as I can so I need to find some point savings somehwere
are you allowed to put say, an evil sunz big mek with da redder armour(from an evil sunz detatchment), inside a blood axes bonebreaka(from a blood axes detatchment)?...because that sounds kinda spicy...
ZoBo wrote: are you allowed to put say, an evil sunz big mek with da redder armour(from an evil sunz detatchment), inside a blood axes bonebreaka(from a blood axes detatchment)?...because that sounds kinda spicy...
Nope, since the transports take <CLAN> infantry. Also, with limited playtesting I'm not sure if I dig the rezmkka armour. It should definitely go in the bonebreaka but still, not sure
Blackie wrote: 12 Nobz or 10 Nobz + 2 Runts are very expensive if embarked in a Bonebreaka. The vehicle becomes priority target and it's not going to reach combat in a single battle. I'd rather put Nobz in a trukk and boyz in Bonebreakas.
10 nobz are the same cost as 20 boyz. I think we need to start to think different of our nobz, so they are no longer a centerpiece death star unit, but more like a concentrated boyz unit. A single battlewagon will never reach anything (and thus the additional points for bonebreaka and deff rolla are wasted anyways), but if there are multiples of them, some buggies, dreads or even a naut, you'll find the wagon will have no difficulties bringing its nobz somewhere - and if it dies early, nobz can still make it into combat since they are not priority targets for multi-damage weapons.
I'm not sure that a standard Battlewagon is a pure tax compared to a Bonebreaka. The Battlewagon can also have a Deff Rolla so basically it trades that average of +3/4 attacks with a transport capacity of +8 bodies and a cost of -20 points. 6 attacks with the Rolla aren't garbage compared to 9-10 with the same weapon, that can also be just 7 with a bad roll on the D6.
My experience with wagons is that they usually don't get to roll anything before getting degrades at least once. At that point it's down to d6 attacks, which makes the investment of 19 points in the deff rolla not worth it. The bonebreaka will go to 2d6 after the first degradation, which will reliably turns into 5-9 attacks, which is still a huge amount when you consider that most models in the game get no more than 4.
I agree about the Skarboyz suggestion but since my army is painted as Goffs I'd like to use that stratagem a lot. At least for the first weeks I'm going WYSIWYG with the kultur choice.
If you're running goffs just load wagons with 20 boyz and make them scarboyz, units of 10 will cost you too many CP. Bring Thrakka, banner and/or weird boyz along and just do the traditional battlewagon bash with them.
Fluffy as hell too, the goff army on Castorel Novem pretty much looked exactly like this, as did Thrakka's blitz brigades on Armageddon.
ZoBo wrote: are you allowed to put say, an evil sunz big mek with da redder armour(from an evil sunz detatchment), inside a blood axes bonebreaka(from a blood axes detatchment)?...because that sounds kinda spicy...
Nope, since the transports take <CLAN>< infantry. Also, with limited playtesting I'm not sure if I dig the rezmkka armour. It should definately go in the bonebreaka but still, not sure
oh yeah...darn...because that would've been nasty...the turn after the initial charge, getting the D3MW on a 4+, falling back, charging again for the +D6 attacks...repeat...oof
Bonebreaka is a 159 point monstrous creatures that happens to be transporting nobz.
+1. You can't underestimate the bonebreaker. It does more average damage in CC then a gorkanaut, moves faster, and transports twice as many things. Plus its half the cost!
The hitting on 2+ is really the key here. If the Gork was 2+ in CC, it would balance back out, but the 3+ hurts the gork's 18 attacks at str 8, vs the bonebreakers average 9 with a 2+ at Str 9.
Agreed, I've only had the chance to play with the new codex once in a small game so far but that bonebreaka is insane. I've always loved the deffrolla battlewagon so I'm stoked about that, the imagery of it all is just perfect for a mad max fan such as myself.
Not really sure what to put in them though, since I'll be running 2. Obvious answer is Nobsquads I guess but that'll end up being quite a few points. They are good enough to stand on their own without being a transport IMO so even a 12-man boyz squad could work. I really want to squeeze in as many of the new buggies as I can so I need to find some point savings somehwere
I'm facing a similar problem. I have four battlewagons, but even with counting some pain boyz and meks as killsaw nobs, I don't have enough to fill more than two bonebreakas. The only other option I can think of is burnas, but they got zero buffs and weren't stellar before the codex dropped.
It's surprising how little pure combat units we have
i have 5 battlewagons and i could easily fill them with stuff. Problem is theres no way im putting that in a 2k list lol....
2 Bonebreakas w/ 10 nobz and 3 regular wagons with boyz/manzftw.
Speaking of Nobz, are they actually replacing BOTH slugga/choppa for an item from their wargear list or is it one for one item? That feels really weird removing their slugga for a bigchoppa or pk...at the same token a squad of bigchoppas + kustom shootas sounds dope (considering bigchoppas went down 2pts, kustoms are 2pts, winwin lol)
Vineheart01 wrote: Speaking of Nobz, are they actually replacing BOTH slugga/choppa for an item from their wargear list or is it one for one item? That feels really weird removing their slugga for a bigchoppa or pk...at the same token a squad of bigchoppas + kustom shootas sounds dope (considering bigchoppas went down 2pts, kustoms are 2pts, winwin lol)
You can also have big choppa+choppa for three S7 AP-1 attacks and one additional S5 attack, similar to daemon princes with swords/axes. Being able to drop a mediocre shooting weapon for a free additional attack is probably one of best things about nobz now.
I have quite a few AOBR nobz with dual choppas (used to be count-as big choppas), those will be my ablative nobz now.
im really only semi-competitive, more gearing towards fun than optimum. As a result i dont want mix clans since all my crap is either Bad Moonz already, unpainted, or SUPER old paintjobs i need to touch up anyway.
Giving Bad Moonz Nobz a kustomshoota gives them pretty decent dakka for 20pts. I just love the idea of them jumping out of a Bonebreaka with gunz a blazin' and axes a swingin' lol Generally if it isnt total dead weight, if the model is cool i'll find a way to use it. Usually not in a conventional way.
Vineheart01 wrote: i have 5 battlewagons and i could easily fill them with stuff.
Problem is theres no way im putting that in a 2k list lol....
2 Bonebreakas w/ 10 nobz and 3 regular wagons with boyz/manzftw.
Speaking of Nobz, are they actually replacing BOTH slugga/choppa for an item from their wargear list or is it one for one item? That feels really weird removing their slugga for a bigchoppa or pk...at the same token a squad of bigchoppas + kustom shootas sounds dope (considering bigchoppas went down 2pts, kustoms are 2pts, winwin lol)
choppas and sluggas are both in the "you can take two" section of the nob weapons list...so, yeah, you throw away the stock slugga and choppa...and then if you want, say, a choppa and a big choppa, I guess you get a big choppa, and...a new choppa instead of the old one?
Vineheart01 wrote: im really only semi-competitive, more gearing towards fun than optimum.
As a result i dont want mix clans since all my crap is either Bad Moonz already, unpainted, or SUPER old paintjobs i need to touch up anyway.
Giving Bad Moonz Nobz a kustomshoota gives them pretty decent dakka for 20pts. I just love the idea of them jumping out of a Bonebreaka with gunz a blazin' and axes a swingin' lol Generally if it isnt total dead weight, if the model is cool i'll find a way to use it. Usually not in a conventional way.
Just remember that kustom shootas are index only on nobz now. That alone makes me not want to konvert any. If you already have them built like that then it's obviously no big deal though
Any ideas why the relic da killy klaw is better than Ghaz's killa klaw?
And why does Ghaz's WL trait not have an extra point of STR like the generic one?
There was a discussion earlier about homemade deffrollas and someone asked about if toilet paper tube would look ok. This is my homemade deffrolla with TP tube. I used the old rouge trader battlewagon wheels in the ends. The supports are made from lascannon sponsons and space marine missile launchers. The various chains are old cheepo jewelry/necklaces.
Weirdboy
Gorkanaut
Mek gunz x 3 traktor kannons
Morkanaut KFF
BM w/ SAG BM w/ SAG gretchen x 10
gretchen x 10
gretchen x 10
the 2nd list is what im leaning towards to have more fire support in the traktor kannons. Both lists have the Gork and Mork, which i bought and used throughout 7th so now im going to enjoy their time in the sun, and then 3 bonebreakas to test out their strength.
Which of these do you think would be better against various factions?
Something:
you dont need to limit yourself to a single smash boss. You can kinda run 3
Boss Killa Klaw: 4x S12 -3 D3 attacks, reroll to W
Boss PK Brutal but Kunning: 4x S12 -3 DD3+1 reroll to H (negates -1 kinda)
Boss HeadChoppa 4x S8 -2 D2
Any1 notice we lost the extra D3 attacks on the headchoppa?
In my oppinion, boyz should not be riding in battlewagons unless they are goff scarboyz. For all other clans, you can get just as much killing power from a much more survivable unit of nobz, which also fit into a bonebreaka.
The awesome part about a bonebreaka is the transport pulling its own weight, so it's not pure tax on the unit like the trukk or basic battlewagons are.
In general, boyz have not changed much from the index, and back then charging 20 out of a wagon was very underwhelming.
12 Nobz or 10 Nobz + 2 Runts are very expensive if embarked in a Bonebreaka. The vehicle becomes priority target and it's not going to reach combat in a single battle. I'd rather put Nobz in a trukk and boyz in Bonebreakas.
I'm not sure that a standard Battlewagon is a pure tax compared to a Bonebreaka. The Battlewagon can also have a Deff Rolla so basically it trades that average of +3/4 attacks with a transport capacity of +8 bodies and a cost of -20 points. 6 attacks with the Rolla aren't garbage compared to 9-10 with the same weapon, that can also be just 7 with a bad roll on the D6.
I agree about the Skarboyz suggestion but since my army is painted as Goffs I'd like to use that stratagem a lot. At least for the first weeks I'm going WYSIWYG with the kultur choice.
Depending on opponent and what rest of your army can do teleport bonebreaka and next turn out. Obviously not if you expect to be surrounded and taken out but can work. Though teleport nobs does almost same anyway often enough
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lolman1c wrote: Guys!I have the perfect Snake bites list! 4 weirdboys and 240boyz! It's the only way!
Then not find opponent allowing 4 weirdboys. Plus that army will get shot to pieces
Dr.Duck wrote: Something:
you dont need to limit yourself to a single smash boss. You can kinda run 3
Boss Killa Klaw: 4x S12 -3 D3 attacks, reroll to W
Boss PK Brutal but Kunning: 4x S12 -3 DD3+1 reroll to H (negates -1 kinda)
Boss HeadChoppa 4x S8 -2 D2
Any1 notice we lost the extra D3 attacks on the headchoppa?
Dr.Duck wrote: Something:
you dont need to limit yourself to a single smash boss. You can kinda run 3
Boss Killa Klaw: 4x S12 -3 D3 attacks, reroll to W
Boss PK Brutal but Kunning: 4x S12 -3 DD3+1 reroll to H (negates -1 kinda)
Boss HeadChoppa 4x S8 -2 D2
Any1 notice we lost the extra D3 attacks on the headchoppa?
Did headchoppa have extra attacks ever?
Btw notice from game today(br later). If you don't have better use for da jump first turn hiding lootas out of los and them plus more dakka can be brutal. Didn't get to use it(had 1cp left after t1) but realized it would have been so good when had to da jump lootas around. If you are facing tons of shooting even grot screen might not be enough. Especially if you have just 30 or so grots
Dr.Duck wrote: Something:
you dont need to limit yourself to a single smash boss. You can kinda run 3
Boss Killa Klaw: 4x S12 -3 D3 attacks, reroll to W
Boss PK Brutal but Kunning: 4x S12 -3 DD3+1 reroll to H (negates -1 kinda)
Boss HeadChoppa 4x S8 -2 D2
Any1 notice we lost the extra D3 attacks on the headchoppa?
Did headchoppa have extra attacks ever?
Btw notice from game today(br later). If you don't have better use for da jump first turn hiding lootas out of los and them plus more dakka can be brutal. Didn't get to use it(had 1cp left after t1) but realized it would have been so good when had to da jump lootas around. If you are facing tons of shooting even grot screen might not be enough. Especially if you have just 30 or so grots
That's real kunnin'! I think a lot of us had sort of picked up that you can move the lootas if you aim to throw More Dakka on them anyways but never thought about da jumping them. Or tellyporting
Well neither had i but then all stuff in sight was dead. Alive stuff were behind los blocking terrain. 5" didn't get anywhere so tried longshot da jump. 6 to hit but nevertheless 8wounds to doomsday ark. Though should have went for command barge.
One bonus is high freedom on where to go. Enemy deployment zone has empty area he can't get fast? Unlikely event but if happens go ahead! Could even be worth losing them eventually if it pulls nasty unit out of position(after you shot something)
Hi excited for getting back into orks with my Freebooters, maybe I could get a few opinions on loadouts though
Dead-Shiny Shoota
What unit does this go best on?
I've got a little minigun I'm itching to stick on something :p It's probably not optimal but the idea of an Assault 12 shoota appeals to me
Meganobz
What sort of loadout is ideal here? How many saws to klaws, and how many skorchas?
Also do you teleport them, footslog them with grot-fodder, or drive them in something?
Nobz (Trukk)
What sort of loadout is ideal here? Specifically the ratio of Big-Choppa, Kustom-Shoota (1 handed two points?), and Skorcha (two handed?)
Big-Gunz (Kannons)
How are they comparing now to Mek-Gunz vs MEQ, do they still get an independent krew of grots?
The tracktor is obviously a go to vs eldar now, but are kannons ranking any higher against KMK?
Dr.Duck wrote: Something:
you dont need to limit yourself to a single smash boss. You can kinda run 3
Boss Killa Klaw: 4x S12 -3 D3 attacks, reroll to W
Boss PK Brutal but Kunning: 4x S12 -3 DD3+1 reroll to H (negates -1 kinda)
Boss HeadChoppa 4x S8 -2 D2
Any1 notice we lost the extra D3 attacks on the headchoppa?
Or alternatively,
Boss Killa Klaw
Deffkilla Wartrike with Might Makes Right
Zhardsnark Da Rippa with Pain Klaw
All 5+ attacks, all S8+, all no -1 to hit.
These are good too. Thing the boss with kill claw would only have 4 attacks tho.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CaffeineIsGood wrote: Hi excited for getting back into orks with my Freebooters, maybe I could get a few opinions on loadouts though
Dead-Shiny Shoota
What unit does this go best on?
I've got a little minigun I'm itching to stick on something :p It's probably not optimal but the idea of an Assault 12 shoota appeals to me
Meganobz
What sort of loadout is ideal here? How many saws to klaws, and how many skorchas?
Is teleporting them even where they shine? Or is it better to have them attracting fire with grots
Nobz (Trukk)
What sort of loadout is ideal here? Specifically the ratio of Big-Choppa, Kustom-Shoota (1 handed two points?), and Skorcha (two handed?)
Big-Gunz (Kannons)
How are they comparing now to Mek-Gunz vs MEQ, do they still get an independent krew of grots?
The tracktor is obviously a go to vs eldar now, but are kannons ranking any higher against KMK?
Cheers!
The questiong for the Shiny Shoota what can you put it on? warboss? Mek? and they need to be close enough to beable to use it.
Meganobs I think should be Ported in or transported in something ported. Or transported in something fairly durable and can garrentee it gets there T2.
I like choppa stabba for nobs. 3 S5 -2 attacks and 1 extra S5 attacks for 17pts a model is pretty nice. Big choppas are decent to.
that....that is an EPIC conversion idea. They'd be complete crap as they'd have no melee and sluggas suck but it would be epic to see a bunch of nobz in a cowboy hat and leather hide vests/chaps.
However its worth noting the base footboss has two sluggas on top of the other stuff....
In my oppinion, boyz should not be riding in battlewagons unless they are goff scarboyz. For all other clans, you can get just as much killing power from a much more survivable unit of nobz, which also fit into a bonebreaka.
The awesome part about a bonebreaka is the transport pulling its own weight, so it's not pure tax on the unit like the trukk or basic battlewagons are.
In general, boyz have not changed much from the index, and back then charging 20 out of a wagon was very underwhelming.
12 Nobz or 10 Nobz + 2 Runts are very expensive if embarked in a Bonebreaka. The vehicle becomes priority target and it's not going to reach combat in a single battle. I'd rather put Nobz in a trukk and boyz in Bonebreakas.
I'm not sure that a standard Battlewagon is a pure tax compared to a Bonebreaka. The Battlewagon can also have a Deff Rolla so basically it trades that average of +3/4 attacks with a transport capacity of +8 bodies and a cost of -20 points. 6 attacks with the Rolla aren't garbage compared to 9-10 with the same weapon, that can also be just 7 with a bad roll on the D6.
I agree about the Skarboyz suggestion but since my army is painted as Goffs I'd like to use that stratagem a lot. At least for the first weeks I'm going WYSIWYG with the kultur choice.
Depending on opponent and what rest of your army can do teleport bonebreaka and next turn out. Obviously not if you expect to be surrounded and taken out but can work. Though teleport nobs does almost same anyway often enough
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lolman1c wrote: Guys!I have the perfect Snake bites list! 4 weirdboys and 240boyz! It's the only way!
Then not find opponent allowing 4 weirdboys. Plus that army will get shot to pieces
Sal4m4nd3r wrote:Nobz can take double sluggas?? LOL I want to make a couple.. just for the sheer joy of double pistol tootin nobz. Cowboy hats, handkerchiefs and all.
Vineheart01 wrote:that....that is an EPIC conversion idea.
They'd be complete crap as they'd have no melee and sluggas suck but it would be epic to see a bunch of nobz in a cowboy hat and leather hide vests/chaps.
However its worth noting the base footboss has two sluggas on top of the other stuff....
Sal4m4nd3r wrote:Nobz can take double sluggas?? LOL I want to make a couple.. just for the sheer joy of double pistol tootin nobz. Cowboy hats, handkerchiefs and all.
I wanna say Spellcrow has six shooters in ork scale
CaffeineIsGood wrote: Hi excited for getting back into orks with my Freebooters, maybe I could get a few opinions on loadouts though
Dead-Shiny Shoota
What unit does this go best on?
I've got a little minigun I'm itching to stick on something :p It's probably not optimal but the idea of an Assault 12 shoota appeals to me
Part of me think death skull warlord for lulz. 12 shot character sniping. Wish gun was bit better or bs better!
CaffeineIsGood wrote: Hi excited for getting back into orks with my Freebooters, maybe I could get a few opinions on loadouts though
Dead-Shiny Shoota
What unit does this go best on?
I've got a little minigun I'm itching to stick on something :p It's probably not optimal but the idea of an Assault 12 shoota appeals to me
Part of me think death skull warlord for lulz. 12 shot character sniping. Wish gun was bit better or bs better!
It can maybe work with more dakka on anything but a SM but you are probably still rolling hot dice.
So what do you guys think of this list? My main opponent is tyranids so without trying to completly tailor to him this is what I came up with. I really wanna try Bone breakers since everyone is talking about how amazing they are. I also wanted to try out Deepstriking a gorkanaut and probably the meganobz (but I might just Jump them instead). The wartrikes are for getting the BWs up the board (with the KFF bike behind them all for the 5++) and the other wartrike will probably flank up the side to hopefully take out HG. Foot warboss warlord riding in one of the BWs
Best I can do... this list should be 100% legal in ITC and warhamer world
(35xboys da jump and warpath turn 1)
They are there to eat the screen and overwatch for
A bike star of painboy on bike, Wartrike, warboss on bike, zhardsnark And 3 scrapjets
Turn 2 25x more Boyz (warpath and dajump)
and meka dread w 30x grot screen arrive (grots go for objectives)
As well as 2x saw dreads (from deep strike) and 12x burna kommandos
Smasha guns taking shots where they can!
Warphead can start jumping himself around and sniping key units w smite...
Most have a 5++, 5+++, and 2+ grot screen turn 1
15cps (1xwarphead, 1xmob up, 2xtellyporta, 1xtra gubbins)
You still have 10x cp for battle
19 drops for first turn bid..
And much of it is tougher then it appears
CaffeineIsGood wrote: Hi excited for getting back into orks with my Freebooters, maybe I could get a few opinions on loadouts though
Dead-Shiny Shoota
What unit does this go best on?
I've got a little minigun I'm itching to stick on something :p It's probably not optimal but the idea of an Assault 12 shoota appeals to me
A warboss is way better with a melee relic so I'd avoid the Shoota on him, unless you want to field three of them and three relics. I'd like to try it on a waaagh banner nob so he could do something more than buffing melee units. Maybe on a Big mek in megarmor could work as well if you like the model's profile.
Meganobz
What sort of loadout is ideal here? How many saws to klaws, and how many skorchas?
Also do you teleport them, footslog them with grot-fodder, or drive them in something?
A unit of 4-5 dudes, all with dual killsaws, that arrives thanks to the Tellyporta stratagem. Their shooting is bad and kombi weapons are utterly overcosted, for +8 points than the standard version you get +1A and -1AP if you chose the killsaws, IMHO the only loadout worth taking. Gretchins can shield them but they're really too slow to walk from the ork lines and they probably won't reach combat if deployed on foot. Maybe they could work if embarked on a transport but the bonebreaka is already a good anti tank, I think it's better to fill it with something cheap or with an anti infantry role like nobz.
Nobz (Trukk)
What sort of loadout is ideal here? Specifically the ratio of Big-Choppa, Kustom-Shoota (1 handed two points?), and Skorcha (two handed?)
Nobz are better with a full anti infantry loadout. A max unit of 10 dudes, all with double choppa and a couple of ammo runts to soak multidamage shots. A unit with Big choppas or a mix with choppas/big choppa are also competitive choices. But I'm still not completely sold on nobz since 10 of them with two choppas have the same damage output than 20 boyz. 50 S5 attacks vs 76 S4 and 6 S5 attacks are basically the same, even with a casualty on the boyz' side they'd still have 57 S4 and 5 S5 attacks. Since they're anti infantry they may clash against T3 models and S4 or S5 would be the same. Way more durable than boyz for sure, but not troops, which are needed for CPs. I'm planning on trying a unit of 10 dual choppas nobz and two runts embarked on a bonebreaka in a list with three of those vehicles.
Big-Gunz (Kannons)
How are they comparing now to Mek-Gunz vs MEQ, do they still get an independent krew of grots?
The tracktor is obviously a go to vs eldar now, but are kannons ranking any higher against KMK?
Kannonz are index only now, they out from the codex. They should have the old rules, which means independent crew of grot gunners. If they're allowed they're still decent.
10 CP only (didn’t wanna cp farm, tried lot of lists doin that)
3 base, 5 battalion, 1 from second detachment, 1 from warlord their
Battalion + one of the Cp detachments.
1 wagon full of gits
1 bonebreaka nob/hq deathstar
1 tank busta trukk
1 boys trukk
30 boys on teleport pad (edit I forgot I dropped them to 27 )
One of kff meks is warlord with follow me lads
Tank busta truck rides close to flash git wagon with badrukk inside, kff mek with kmb and flag hang out back there to bubble them and shoot, room for him to ride In The gits wagon when they need to
Boys trukk pushes up with bonebreaka full of nobs, warbiaa, banner nob, and a kff mek (mek sfands between trukk and wagon t1 to bubble both?)
30 boys deepstrike and do boy things
Hoping with badrukk, 2 shooty meks, the small units ... can trigger the +1 to hit kulture ability often enough. Could buff the boys up before game, mob up the two hits squad and have them loot somethin and be 3+ save or 2+ in cover if their wagon dies.. have banner to use for critical morale turn...
Think that would work? Feels a little light on cp but... also I know I should run double chop as on nobs but I have a couple with Choppa slugs and don’t wanna have to chop them up.
CaffeineIsGood wrote: Hi excited for getting back into orks with my Freebooters, maybe I could get a few opinions on loadouts though
Dead-Shiny Shoota
What unit does this go best on?
I've got a little minigun I'm itching to stick on something :p It's probably not optimal but the idea of an Assault 12 shoota appeals to me
A warboss is way better with a melee relic so I'd avoid the Shoota on him, unless you want to field three of them and three relics. I'd like to try it on a waaagh banner nob so he could do something more than buffing melee units. Maybe on a Big mek in megarmor could work as well if you like the model's profile.
Relics on the Waaagh banner nob... that's genius! I could even give him the bloodaxe thinking cap and give him the Waaagh! and splittin' heads auras, saving myself a warboss.
CaffeineIsGood wrote: Hi excited for getting back into orks with my Freebooters, maybe I could get a few opinions on loadouts though
Dead-Shiny Shoota
What unit does this go best on?
I've got a little minigun I'm itching to stick on something :p It's probably not optimal but the idea of an Assault 12 shoota appeals to me
A warboss is way better with a melee relic so I'd avoid the Shoota on him, unless you want to field three of them and three relics. I'd like to try it on a waaagh banner nob so he could do something more than buffing melee units. Maybe on a Big mek in megarmor could work as well if you like the model's profile.
Relics on the Waaagh banner nob... that's genius! I could even give him the bloodaxe thinking cap and give him the Waaagh! and splittin' heads auras, saving myself a warboss.
Yeah I was pretty close to putting the dead shiny shoota, or git stoppa shells on the banner nob but was thinking if I run 2 kff then maybe the meks are more durable choices for the gubbins?
Edit: I could see argument for letting the kff mek fight with his PK and 2+ over the nob fighting, and just letting the nob hang back and shoot stuff while buffing and not getting punched
So while building my list I had a question.
Deff dreads allow you to mix and match saws and klaws
Each one gives you an additional attack.
Is there any point to taking more then 1 klaw (15pts)
And just taking 3 saws (10pts) and using the klaw profile for all attacks?
Jidmah wrote: I doubt someone would be sniping the banner over KFF meks.
Wasn’t thinking necessarily sniping, just durability if one is targeted. Sure the kff is more likely to be focused down, unless your opponent is massing no ap attacks or something and doesn’t care about it, and cares more about the +1 to hit? Idk maybe rare, was just thinking out loud :p
gungo wrote: So while building my list I had a question.
Deff dreads allow you to mix and match saws and klaws
Each one gives you an additional attack.
Is there any point to taking more then 1 klaw (15pts)
And just taking 3 saws (10pts) and using the klaw profile for all attacks?
The extra attacks are with the weapon that grants it, so you cant take 1 Klaw and 3 Saws and make 6 Klaw attacks. You could make 3 (base 2 of whatever weapon + 1 for having a klaw) and 3 saws
gungo wrote: So while building my list I had a question.
Deff dreads allow you to mix and match saws and klaws
Each one gives you an additional attack.
Is there any point to taking more then 1 klaw (15pts)
And just taking 3 saws (10pts) and using the klaw profile for all attacks?
Pretty sure that you still need to attack with the 1 klaw.
Okay here's report of my first game with codex. WAAAAGH! I was up against necrons whose vault+destroyers+immortals+doomsday arks had ANNIHILATED my mechanised orks last time. This time was up against quite different kind of list. Not sure how good necron list this is though necrons are among weaker codexes to begin with. My list was:
Spoiler:
Evil sun bat:
trike HQ, super cybork body, brutal but kunning
warboss with power klaw
2x30 boyz(one had 19 choppas and power big choppa, other had 29 choppas and power klaw)
12xgretchin
gorkanaut
6xbikes(power klaw)
Death skull battallion:
2xweirdboy(fist of gork, da jump)
30xboyz(19xshoota, big choppa)
2x30 gretchin
15xlootas
2xtraktor kannon
He had spearhead and fast attack detachments I think:
HQ in skyboard like thing I think, command barge, 2x9 tomb blade(one of both weapons), 6 wraiths, 2 doomsday ark, transcendant c'tan, nightshard.
That's...small. Lots of flying units. Annoyingly his flying vehicles are quantum shielded so traktor guns are facing 3++ or better 55% times. Guess those won't be priority target...
Nobody had any book with scenarios so we took 6 objectives, 3 maelstrom card per simple scenario. I got to pick my side so took one with one objective near deployment zone. Rest were fairly center.
As I had 3 units to teleport and gretchins and he had just 9 drops he got most of his army before I got to real stuff. However realized my first deathskull gretchin blop was in bad spot for lootas if I want to shoot toward the tomb blades that went to my left. Warbikes and trike went to my left, on left were also behind grot screen lootas and mek guns, on right I had basically just death skull boys and in ruin 12 gretchins. His doomsday arks, 2 c'tans and command barge were on my left(which is why my stuff went left figuring those aren't good targets. Hell I won't be even able to charge the doomsday arks ever if he doesn't want to allow me do it...)
I rolled 6 for 1st turn and was dreaming glory of 1st turn(been months since I last went first in 40k....) but he rolled 6 and I failed to seize. Drat. Was dreaming of blasting one tomb blade unit with lootas and 1st turn charging others with bikes+trike...I used prepared position.
Necron 1:
He moved forward with almost everything bar doomsday arks. C'tan powers mortal wounded plenty of stuff. Shooting. Tesla tomb blades had got into range with grots and simply deleted them with something like 37 wounds. Yep yep. 4 wounds to bikes. One doomsday ark fired at traktor gun hitting 5 times. I was saying bye bye's to it but then he rolled 3 1's...Well 2d6 damage vs 6 wounds. 1 and 2. He rerolled 1(and by now was down to 2) and got 4 so dead traktor gun. Other was still alive. Wraiths used strategem to try and charge after advance(down to 1) and failed. Note to self: Prepared position bad idea. Tomb blades ignore cover. So I got 1 save from something to bikes that worked. Expensive save with 2 CP... He scored 2 and got first blood discarding last.
Ork 1:
WAAAAAAGH! Trike and warbikes had jolly easy time moving front of gaus tomb blades. I kicked on dust cloud on trike figuring bikes are very likely to die so want -1 to hit for my HQ. Not much else to move. My plan with da jump was in tatters. Wraiths in my face, grot screen from lootas dead and other gretchin squad too far. Change of plans. Boys move forward into ruin. In magic fist of gork toward trike failed(Drat) and I da jumped gretchins into front of lootas. Mind you in some other times I might have da jumped+more dakka lootas to other side but as I was where I had LOS to the tomb blades with tesla's of "delete unit" with nobody else able to deal with them(2nd floor ruins so couldn't assault ever) it was up to lootas.
Shooting. Holal balla! More dakka for lootas. D3 for shots. 1. Drat. Reroll. 3. That's better! 45 shots hitting on 5+(take that -1 to hit tomb blades) and extra shots on 5+ resulted in whopping 26 hits. Okay that's better than average. This resulted in 8 dead tomb blade. I also forgot deth skull bonus. However I realized I had screwed up as mek gun didn't have LOS to last one. Should have started with it. Shot against wraith binged off. Trike HQ tried to finish that tomb blade but failed but bikes succeeded. That was big. There was 4+ RP providing character nearby so denying reanimation was HUGE. Assault. Bikes into tomb blades and lost 2 more but HQ got into combat safely. Death skull boys charged into wraiths but failed to even kill a 1 with their shooting phase and combat phase combined taking hefty casualties. Trike HQ killed 5 tomb blades and nob one more but my remaining regular bike legged it from morale.
My objectives had been kingslayer, defend 3 which was covered by c'tans, doomsday ark and command barge(discarded this one) and another equally impossible to score. Yep yep.
Down to 1 CP...
Necron 2:
Wraiths fell back and charged back to death skulls vaporizing the squad. Tomb blades got 4 out of 6 dead back. They fell out of combat(damn flying shooters). C'tans keep moving forward and mortal wounds galore. Shooting he had to spend some serious firepower to kill nob from bike squad eventually having to resort to doomsday ark at full strenght(lol). This opened up trike to the tomb blades and I took 6 wounds. Good thing I had super cybork! They then charged with the HQ guy(who was the warlord) but T6 and 5+++ kept me going strong. I dropped HQ to 1 wound(ARGH!). Deathskull nob legged to morale(well like 17 casualties. No wonder)
Ork 2:
Objective cards again useless crap. Only card I could score was kingslayer from last round.
Waaghdom strikes back. One boy mob went left to help trike HQ. Another prepared to charge wraiths. Gorkanaut was issue. Didn't feel either needed it. Couldn't do anything to the doomsday arks except shoot as they were in tall places(taller than 1" from gorkanaut base anyway). So don't come or try heading into c'tans...Aaah what the hell. To transcendant c'tan!
Not much else moving. Magic smited wraiths and tomb blades(why didn't I fist of gork though...). Shooting. 13 lootas(c'tan powers) fired up 3 shots each and blew out the nearest doomsday ark. HAH! Take that. Lootas rock against quantum shield vehicles. Can I take 2?(too bad grot strategem only helps 1). As traktor gun had died during his turn I was pretty much out of shooting except evil suns fired at wraiths binking 4 wounds killing wounded one and another. Gorkanaut shot at transcendant causing 2 wounds. Then charges. Against tomb blades easy peasy. I got 108 attacks and no surprise opponent didn't mind me using dice app. Killed whole bunch but still 3 left...ARGH! Gorkanaut left transcendant down to 2 wounds. Command barge had heroic intervened(should have declared that as target and try to kill it) and all in all took 7 wounds. Trike killed the HQ. I forgot it had 1 wound so didn't split attacks. Should have gone 3-3. This was overkill. Feel no pain again saved wound. twice in a row.
Necron 3:
C'tan and command barge were about to fall back but by now I remembered no fall back and charge with flyers so they stayed and nightbringer floated around. Tomb blades(no RP succeeded now with 5+. Plenty of 4's....). C'tans dropped 3 more lootas. Shooting saw trike HQ STILL survive(4 5+++ in a row). Nightbringer caused 4 hits, needing 5+ to wound caused 4 wounds and 4d6 resulted in 14 wounds. Whoops.
Ork 3:
Running stuff to do. Evil sun boyz and trike HQ finished off tomb blades. My lootas had now nothing to shoot so I opted to da jump them to my right with LOS to the doomsday ark. I had still 1 CP but not enough for more dakka(drat) so only got 8 wounds to the thing. Should probably have shot at the command barge. Evil sun mob shot at the transcendant killing the thing with 2 wounds left and then charged the nightbringer. This combat continued until next round at which point nightbringer died as well. I started to score 2 point objectives.
Necron 4:
Command barge went and charged at lootas. 10 lootas shot 3 shots each AGAIN and got 8 hits but 4++ saved his ass. Ah well.
By then ork 4 would be last turn. He had doomsday ark and command barge. I'm not likely killing either of them anymore. We checked what I could get on my 4th. 2 more objectives leading to 12-10 for necrons. Turns 5-6 would be fairly bloodless(I would hide trike HQ from doomsday ark and he wouldn't likely dare to come for me either) so it would have been on card luck whether I could overtake him.
Lootas great(though I was rolling like god with them), trike HQ awesome, boyz need that teleport to be useful, lootas great. Orks are super CP hungry. Don't use prepared position against army whose main shooting ignores cover anyway.
Photo is after his 1st turn shooting. Note the big hole on my left side front of lootas. That's where 30 grots USED to exists before being vaporized in one go with "point and click delete infantry unit" tomb blades. Yikes. Those shoot scary amount of dakka.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yey. Found out the box of orks I had bought recently(something like 1000e worth of orks for 380e though buying from UK would reduce discount gain and 2nd stompa was useless...) included 8 lootas. I already had 1 loota in bad moon colours so get box more and I have 13 bad moon loota as well as the 15 death skull ones I have.
===============
Edit: Another list to ponder for the competive tournament.
Evil sun battallion:
trike HQ weirdboy
2x10 grot
29xboys(all choppas, big choppa)
3xdeff dread(skorcha, 3xccw all. Again skorchas are prebuilt)
Also trukk and 10 tank bustas. Which of the klan they would be best at? Thinking death skulls look to be best.
1999 pts
What I feel this one would enjoy would be at least some bikes for trike HQ but guess it can be used for counter punch usage if I don't feel like going all havoc. Also would be nice to have mek guns but well points always run short somewhere. Need some mobile elements for objective grabbing etc so can't drop evil sun boyz or dreadnoughts really.
gungo wrote: So while building my list I had a question.
Deff dreads allow you to mix and match saws and klaws
Each one gives you an additional attack.
Is there any point to taking more then 1 klaw (15pts)
And just taking 3 saws (10pts) and using the klaw profile for all attacks?
The extra attacks are with the weapon that grants it, so you cant take 1 Klaw and 3 Saws and make 6 Klaw attacks. You could make 3 (base 2 of whatever weapon + 1 for having a klaw) and 3 saws
Thanks answered my question and that’s a good idea to save 30pts.
gungo wrote: So while building my list I had a question.
Deff dreads allow you to mix and match saws and klaws
Each one gives you an additional attack.
Is there any point to taking more then 1 klaw (15pts)
And just taking 3 saws (10pts) and using the klaw profile for all attacks?
The extra attacks are with the weapon that grants it, so you cant take 1 Klaw and 3 Saws and make 6 Klaw attacks. You could make 3 (base 2 of whatever weapon + 1 for having a klaw) and 3 saws
Thanks answered my question and that’s a good idea to save 30pts.
No problem. The exact wording is " Each time the bearer fights, you can make 1 additional attack with each dread klaw (or saw) it is equipped with". So the base 2 attacks can be made with any weapon it has, and any bonus attacks would need to be made with the weapon that grants that additional attack. Im debating between Klaws and Saws myself.
Another discovery from the pile of bought orks. Would this be kill kannon or reqular kannon? And kill kannon wagon which klan...that's the question. Leaning toward deathskulls
thats a regular kannon. Killkannons are a bit wider/longer.
Also Gunwagon kinda needs to be Bad Moonz imo. Yeah, it doesnt get the reroll to wound but it gets rerolls on all its dakka, which it has a lot of. Mek Gunz only really fire a few shots, by comparison.
Not sold on other guns for gun wagon. 18 pts for mortar is pricey for BS5+ and ditto for big shootas. Hitting on 5+ isn't that hot. Fun seems to be shooting twice with the vehicle busting kill kannon. Could be wrong though. But the for kill kannon one reroll of anything is fairly identical to the reroll 1's.
I'm warming to the idea of a full squad of 10 nobz now they are cheaper pt for pt 10 = 20 sluggas its the same wounds but ye getting s5 and a 4+ ... half they attacks though.
Thinking 10, 3 klaws couple of big choppas, 180ish pts. Da jump them turn 1 with evil sunz... should make a dent in a lot of stuff?
Also been toying with painboy ideas. Keep one near ye warboss and with the 1cp strat ye can get 2d3 wounds back a turn which is pretty tastey.
Latro_ wrote: Also been toying with painboy ideas. Keep one near ye warboss and with the 1cp strat ye can get 2d3 wounds back a turn which is pretty tastey.
Issue with that is that warboss are fairly soft. No inv save means those 6 wounds tend to vaporize when enemy looks at them :-/ Painboy seems to suffer from codex as units it would be good tend to be waaay off distance. Very expensive. Best use could be for stuff like lootas(especially if you have 2 squads)
2xweirdboy(fist of gork, da jump)
30xboyz(19xshoota, big choppa)
2x30 gretchin
15xlootas
2xtraktor kannon
Out of curosity for the second batt why did you go for Deathskulls over Bad Moons? For the lootas specifically re-rolling 1's synergises nicely with 'more dakka' and if you'd saved an extra command point you could have had another turn of shooting with them at full force (with 'more dakka' still present) mitigating some of the damage you'd recieve turn 2.
Good to hear lootas performing well overall though.
2xweirdboy(fist of gork, da jump)
30xboyz(19xshoota, big choppa)
2x30 gretchin
15xlootas
2xtraktor kannon
Out of curosity for the second batt why did you go for Deathskulls over Bad Moons? For the lootas specifically re-rolling 1's synergises nicely with 'more dakka' and if you'd saved an extra command point you could have had another turn of shooting with them at full force (with 'more dakka' still present) mitigating some of the damage you'd recieve turn 2.
Good to hear lootas performing well overall though.
Main reason: They were already painted deth skulls! That's what you get when you paint your army for fluff and then GW introduces freebie rules that don't even represent fluff so we end up with goffs not really hot on nobs(when goffs are traditionally the ones using more nobs than others...) and lootas, archetypical death skull unit, not really benefitting that much from death skull trait. Though strategem could have been helpful vs vehicles except I ran out of CP's. I'm in for some serious repainting. Meganobz? They are goff colour. Need to be evil sun. 60 stormboyz in goff colour, again time for evil sun. 25 stormboyz in blood axe...I don't even have anyting else for legal blood axe so they need repainting as well! Grumble grumble. At least I hadn't painted any choppa&slugga bad moons. I feel pity for those(and I know there are bad moon players with choppa&slugga boys...)
Though if you are thinking of shooting again with show off...Problem then was that they actually had very little in sight! The super fast necrons were so that there was no way real way for me to keep them safe AND have good LOS. I could have got better LOS situation with da jump but that would have put them into more dangerous spot.
So basically for 2nd round I could have shot...That lone tomb blade survivor and...that's about it. MAYBE the doomsday ark they blew up when it moved closer but that didn't do that much damage(think it took out the traktor kannon) so it wouldn't have been that big of a deal. For reducing damage I would have needed to be able to shoot at the 2nd tomb blade squad but that was safely out of LOS from loota squad.
But main issue: Death skull colours. I will however get loota squad with bad moon colours so I can use either one or both. Will be at 13 strong for a while but...This time I didn't a) know I had those unpainted lootas yet b) haven't bought yet box of lootas c) wanted to keep unpainted to that trike HQ.
Coh Magnussen wrote: Is it just me or is the battlescribe file missing some characters, like snikrot and grotsnik?
You probably have the wrong Kultur. Battlescribe automatically assumes you're making a legal matched play detachment that benefits from a Kultur. If you set the Kultur to one that doesn't match the Named Characters one it hides it. To show all characters you need to set it to the correct Kultur.
As usual the authors forgot that you can take them or not take a Kultur. I'll make a mention of it again on their github. To their credit they fixed the problem for CSM when I brought it up so lets hope they do the same for Orks.
Edit: It's already been fixed. Make sure your Orks file is at v29 or higher.
Anyone experimented with Killa Kans yet? I'm playing a game tomorrow and it'll have a mob of 6 kans + banner nob + deffkilla wartrike. The kans all have big shootas and buzzsaws. I've got a weirdboy with warpath to buff their number of attacks to a total of 6. I'm half expecting the kans to trip over themselves, I've even modelled them like that, but I am hoping that I'll have an excuse to run them on the table again.
Invul wrote: Wait wait wait, choppa nobz is legal? 5-attack dudes for 14 points?
As written, yes; that appears to be the case.
Intentional? Hard to say - we'll have to wait for the FAQ to know for sure.
I think it's intentional, I feel like if they didn't want you doing that they'd specify that they must be different. I had a look at the space marine codex and they had a few similarly worded wargear choices, when I looked up the FAQ they didn't specify they must be different.
My head is still swimming with this dex and I can't wait to build an army I'm just having so much trouble putting together a list, so far I have
Deathskulls:
Big mek with SAG Weirdboy
3x10 gretchin
10x tankbustas in a BW
Gorkanaut on tellyporta
3x Traktor
3x Smasha
Dakkajet
EvilSunz
Wartrike
3x Scrapjets
3x Deff Dreads on tellyporta
I'm just worried I don't have enough anti-infantry dakka, I think I'm ok with anti-vehicle though. Trying to make a fun list with a bunch of units and models that I like but can still hold its own.
Is anyone else running into the problem that our units are kind of crap without CP? I Feel like I am forced to take grotz to fill out a brigade or a 2nd/3rd battalion in order to get the CP i need to make my army decent.
tneva82 wrote: Shooting. Holal balla! More dakka for lootas. D3 for shots. 1. Drat. Reroll. 3. That's better! 45 shots hitting on 5+(take that -1 to hit tomb blades) and extra shots on 5+ resulted in whopping 26 hits.
How were lootas hitting on 5s against -1 to hit? Or were you shooting at something else?
What are y’all equipping pk nobs with? BattleScribe showing they can take a pk and Choppa so they would do base attacks with PK and +1 attack with Choppa (or could do vice versa if he wanted?)
Was thinking of doing some double power stabbas as well? Mainly cuz it would look neat.
Shame about all the nobs I have with Kustom shootas, Except proxy or modify them. I could run index ones I suppose
Again I suggest if anyone wants our faq to be anywhere near decent send feedback too. 40KFAQ@gwplc.com
I’m going to touch on a few topics
Usually points are out on these FAQs but I’m going to address the stompa.
Kommando nob I want the big choppa option as the kommando upgrade sprue from fw has the option.
Goff warlord trait is just flat out worse then generic trait.
Mobile fortress doesn’t have the index faq yet...intentional?
Are nobs allowed to have 2 choppas? And do the additional hits they provide stack
JimOnMars wrote: We don't know that the choppa +1 attack stacks with itself yet...I'd wait for the FAQ personally before playing it on people you like.
Yes, we do. In addition to being RaW, it was FAQed for Chainswords that have the exact same rule to do so.
Honestly I will never understand this mentality of "I don't like what the rules say therefore if you play by the rules you're a bad person."
2xChoppa Nobz are not even that good to be quite honest. Boyz are always a better option and Skarboyz make Nobz so hilariously redundant it's not even funny.
skyfi wrote: What are y’all equipping pk nobs with? BattleScribe showing they can take a pk and Choppa so they would do base attacks with PK and +1 attack with Choppa (or could do vice versa if he wanted?
You can do all base attacks with either the PK or Choppa split as you like, plus one bonus one with the Choppa.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote: Is anyone else running into the problem that our units are kind of crap without CP? I Feel like I am forced to take grotz to fill out a brigade or a 2nd/3rd battalion in order to get the CP i need to make my army decent.
Welcome to 8th edition. It's no different for anyone else so why should it be different for Orks.
Keep in mind you have to rely on Index Big Meks if you want to get the cheapest battalion, otherwise slapping in two Weirdboyz is your next best bet (and you'll want 2 Weirdboyz anyway as they are by far the least bad HQ).
Kommandos are better played as Evil Suns. They deep strike in an +1" on the charge is way more important than leave combat and charge.
Warbikers are better played as Blood Axes. They are a shooty unit that has durability problems (Cover helps that), and being able to leave combat and still shoot or charge is a big deal for a unit like them, lots of situations where that would come up.
Kommandos are better played as Evil Suns. They deep strike in an +1" on the charge is way more important than leave combat and charge.
Warbikers are better played as Blood Axes. They are a shooty unit that has durability problems (Cover helps that), and being able to leave combat and still shoot or charge is a big deal for a unit like them, lots of situations where that would come up.
The cover only workz at 18 inches though right? like the same range as their guns?
EDIT; I just feel like that sets you up for enemies to move in and fire away
Looking at converting an Orruk Megaboss into a Warboss. He already has a huge axe, so I'd prefer to use that rather than try to give him a klaw. How viable is Headwoppa's Killchoppa compared to Da Killa Klaw? Worth using?
Also, suggestions on his other arm since I can build more or less any weapon to go there? Kombi-skorcha, since he's planning on getting into gits' faces anyway? Kustom Shoota to save on points since he's mostly melee anyway?
The Cover Tactics would work well for Lootas, Flash Gitz, and other long-range Boyz, but I agree that it just isn't worth bothering with when you got so many other great options. Maybe if you wanna dedicate a Detachment just for your Lootas and Gitz, it might be fine. But I think you'd be happier just screening them with Grots and going with Bad Moonz for the +1 to Hit.
tneva82 wrote: Shooting. Holal balla! More dakka for lootas. D3 for shots. 1. Drat. Reroll. 3. That's better! 45 shots hitting on 5+(take that -1 to hit tomb blades) and extra shots on 5+ resulted in whopping 26 hits.
How were lootas hitting on 5s against -1 to hit? Or were you shooting at something else?
Invul wrote: Wait wait wait, choppa nobz is legal? 5-attack dudes for 14 points?
As written, yes; that appears to be the case.
Intentional? Hard to say - we'll have to wait for the FAQ to know for sure.
We don't know that the choppa +1 attack stacks with itself yet...I'd wait for the FAQ personally before playing it on people you like.
Dakka Dakka Dakka states that you always hit on 6s and 6s generate additional shots. More Dakka makes Dakka Dakka Dakka proc on 5s and 6s thus you always hit on 5s.
gungo wrote: Again I suggest if anyone wants our faq to be anywhere near decent send feedback too. 40KFAQ@gwplc.com
.
Goff warlord trait is just flat out worse then generic trait.
Thanks for doing that, but please use the word "than" instead of "then". They are writers and will be grammar sticklers. They will ignore everything you say if you stomp on their craft. Not trying to be rude. Just trying to help you help me with our codex.
Dr.Duck wrote: Dakka Dakka Dakka states that you always hit on 6s and 6s generate additional shots. More Dakka makes Dakka Dakka Dakka proc on 5s and 6s thus you always hit on 5s.
Sweet...missed that. I thought it was just exploding 5s.
Best use (as always) is on tankbustas, shooting planes.
ETA: Wow. 18 Tankbustas with DDD5 get 15.55 hits against vehicles. That's about BS 1-5/6 +.
Never thought orks could ever get better than 2+ shooting. Not counting the squiggs.
Has anyone done the mathhammer on 15 tankbustas with 6 squiggs, with DDD5, shoot again and extra stikkbombs, all against T8 Vehicles? I think we are erasing multiple knights with this one.
Challenge: What is the most absurd 2000 point list possible with brigades of grots and hyper-shooting TBs?
tneva82 wrote: Shooting. Holal balla! More dakka for lootas. D3 for shots. 1. Drat. Reroll. 3. That's better! 45 shots hitting on 5+(take that -1 to hit tomb blades) and extra shots on 5+ resulted in whopping 26 hits.
How were lootas hitting on 5s against -1 to hit? Or were you shooting at something else?
More dakka. Unmodified 5+ to hit. Bit pricey with 2CP but more than doubling firepower vs -1 to hit.
We don't know that the choppa +1 attack stacks with itself yet...I'd wait for the FAQ personally before playing it on people you like.
It's pronounced same as chainsword which is clarified in FAQ yes you get +2 attacks.
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SemperMortis wrote: Is anyone else running into the problem that our units are kind of crap without CP? I Feel like I am forced to take grotz to fill out a brigade or a 2nd/3rd battalion in order to get the CP i need to make my army decent.
Welcome to 8th edition. And yes grots are basically mandatory. Good thing they have always been good and now they even got boosted in more than 1 ways so it's not that bad to have to take them.
Kommandos are better played as Evil Suns. They deep strike in an +1" on the charge is way more important than leave combat and charge.
Warbikers are better played as Blood Axes. They are a shooty unit that has durability problems (Cover helps that), and being able to leave combat and still shoot or charge is a big deal for a unit like them, lots of situations where that would come up.
The cover only workz at 18 inches though right? like the same range as their guns?
EDIT; I just feel like that sets you up for enemies to move in and fire away
It would be biggest help for 1st turn I guess. Though prepared position can do that for whole army.
gungo wrote: Again I suggest if anyone wants our faq to be anywhere near decent send feedback too. 40KFAQ@gwplc.com
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Goff warlord trait is just flat out worse then generic trait.
Thanks for doing that, but please use the word "than" instead of "then". They are writers and will be grammar sticklers. They will ignore everything you say if you stomp on their craft. Not trying to be rude. Just trying to help you help me with our codex.
They better not to do that seeing GW has least moral authority about grammar seeing how incompetent writers they are!
Dr.Duck wrote: Dakka Dakka Dakka states that you always hit on 6s and 6s generate additional shots. More Dakka makes Dakka Dakka Dakka proc on 5s and 6s thus you always hit on 5s.
Sweet...missed that. I thought it was just exploding 5s.
Best use (as always) is on tankbustas, shooting planes.
ETA: Wow. 18 Tankbustas with DDD5 get 15.55 hits against vehicles. That's about BS 1-5/6 +.
Never thought orks could ever get better than 2+ shooting. Not counting the squiggs.
Has anyone done the mathhammer on 15 tankbustas with 6 squiggs, with DDD5, shoot again and extra stikkbombs, all against T8 Vehicles? I think we are erasing multiple knights with this one.
Challenge: What is the most absurd 2000 point list possible with brigades of grots and hyper-shooting TBs?
Thinking bout it more is getting me hard hnnnngh.....
If I do end up running a grottaion I might have to make it bad moons so I can fit a single unit of 15 bustas taht I can port in.More Dakka with Show Offs might drop two full knights in a single turn. sure its a 6Cp investment but holy crap who can boast that kinda damage.
Heh. Local game groups reserve player is considering challenging me one day with his Tzeentch flying circuit with tzaangors by bucketloads and Magnus. Thing is he's normally reserve player and I have time limit so we usually cannot play but if I one day specially take car or someone else is willing to take reserve player we could play. Thing is I was calculating odds of killing Magnus.
So. 15 lootas, bad moon, more dakka, show off. If it has 4++ inv save(I think Magnus could buff to 3++ or was it -1 to hit(which we ignore)? But I think he needed first turn for that) it's basically 3.8888888 wounds per shot so with showoff anywhere from 7.77 to 23.33(kill!). 5 would give you averaging 19.44 so while not automatic it's not outside realm of possibility(and of course it will be in practice 18/20 wounds so it will be basically on one 4++ will he die or not)
With 3++ it would be 2.59 per one shot(as in d3 shots is 1) so with 3 shots for both rounds 15.55 average. Not enough to kill but close.
With tank bustas it's just 5.18 per round with 3++ or 7.77 with 4++ so very unlikely to kill it.
But still. Even possibility of one shotting Magnus is fun
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Dr.Duck wrote: Thinking bout it more is getting me hard hnnnngh.....
If I do end up running a grottaion I might have to make it bad moons so I can fit a single unit of 15 bustas taht I can port in.More Dakka with Show Offs might drop two full knights in a single turn. sure its a 6Cp investment but holy crap who can boast that kinda damage.
CITIES DROP AROUND THESE MUTHAS
Very unlikely to cause 2 knights in single turn. 15 more dakka tank bustas=11.11 hits which results in 5.55 wounds and if opponent is kind enough to not use RIS 3.7 so 8-12 damage per round. So you in average do 22 damage though the way flat damages work you will likely end up with knight with 4 wounds or dead.
Dr.Duck wrote: Thinking bout it more is getting me hard hnnnngh.....
If I do end up running a grottaion I might have to make it bad moons so I can fit a single unit of 15 bustas taht I can port in.More Dakka with Show Offs might drop two full knights in a single turn. sure its a 6Cp investment but holy crap who can boast that kinda damage.
CITIES DROP AROUND THESE MUTHAS
Very unlikely to cause 2 knights in single turn. 15 more dakka tank bustas=11.11 hits which results in 5.55 wounds and if opponent is kind enough to not use RIS 3.7 so 8-12 damage per round. So you in average do 22 damage though the way flat damages work you will likely end up with knight with 4 wounds or dead.
Still pretty nice result.
Oh and 5CP. Show off=3, more dakka=2
Show off is 2 and Dakka is another 2 I think. I was porting them in to facilitate the alpha, so 6 total. You get tons more damage if you can get them withing nade range which is the puzzle. How do you deliver 15 bustas within 6", surely no one is gonna allow that. Easiest way is to port them in. Another potential plan is to tie up as much as possilbe in charges T1 to facilitate the nades T2.
Dr.Duck wrote: Show off is 2 and Dakka is another 2 I think. I was porting them in to facilitate the alpha. You get tons more damage if you can get them withing nade range which is the puzzle. How do you deliver 15 bustas within 6", surely no one is gonna allow that. Easiest way is to port them in. Another potential plan is to tie up as much as possilbe in charges T1 to facilitate the nades T2.
Da Jump.
Good thing GW didn't touch that spell. Too bad it can be only cast once per turn! If I could would have 3 weirdboys casting it!
Dr.Duck wrote: Show off is 2 and Dakka is another 2 I think. I was porting them in to facilitate the alpha. You get tons more damage if you can get them withing nade range which is the puzzle. How do you deliver 15 bustas within 6", surely no one is gonna allow that. Easiest way is to port them in. Another potential plan is to tie up as much as possilbe in charges T1 to facilitate the nades T2.
Da Jump.
Good thing GW didn't touch that spell. Too bad it can be only cast once per turn! If I could would have 3 weirdboys casting it!
But I cant Jump within 6 to be able to throw nades, same problem as Port.
Dr.Duck wrote: Show off is 2 and Dakka is another 2 I think. I was porting them in to facilitate the alpha. You get tons more damage if you can get them withing nade range which is the puzzle. How do you deliver 15 bustas within 6", surely no one is gonna allow that. Easiest way is to port them in. Another potential plan is to tie up as much as possilbe in charges T1 to facilitate the nades T2.
Da Jump.
Good thing GW didn't touch that spell. Too bad it can be only cast once per turn! If I could would have 3 weirdboys casting it!
But I cant Jump within 6 to be able to throw nades, same problem as Port.
I NEED TO LIVE THE DREAM
Aa right for tank busta bombs. I was thinking just rokkits. Well then best bet is swarm with battlewagon(maybe multiple units) and hope for best
Dr.Duck wrote: Show off is 2 and Dakka is another 2 I think. I was porting them in to facilitate the alpha. You get tons more damage if you can get them withing nade range which is the puzzle. How do you deliver 15 bustas within 6", surely no one is gonna allow that. Easiest way is to port them in. Another potential plan is to tie up as much as possilbe in charges T1 to facilitate the nades T2.
Da Jump.
Good thing GW didn't touch that spell. Too bad it can be only cast once per turn! If I could would have 3 weirdboys casting it!
But I cant Jump within 6 to be able to throw nades, same problem as Port.
I NEED TO LIVE THE DREAM
Aa right for tank busta bombs. I was thinking just rokkits. Well then best bet is swarm with battlewagon(maybe multiple units) and hope for best
Ya just dropping 1 knight is not gonna be good enough.
So, do you guyz feel it's time to start painting the usefullness colors for orks? A lot more things have gone up the spectre.
'Ere we go. Stuff that i've tried allready.
Green:
Boyz. Still green. Still mean. Still needed for footslogging lists and still questionable for mech. They've become more expensive which is noticeable when you spam them. However, clan traits and strategems have made them, at very least, not worse than before. Though, the numbers of boyz will definitely go down in an average ork list.
Grots. Orks are super cp thirsty now. And what better way do we have of getting cp other than spamming grots? They still do nothing in terms of killing stuff but this cp are invaluable. The grot shield strategem is also a game changer. And besides, with the nerf to grot crews you'll need more backfield scoring and deepstrike denial. Another plus for grots.
Meganobz. Now that's a huge comeback from red to green. 35 pts for a basic meganob. Access to deepstrike. Able to go up to 72% success rate when making a charge out of deepstrike with Evil Sunz clan trait. Boom. Top tier unit right there. Drop 10 manz in your opponent's face. Fight twice. Dead stuff all around. Statystically killing a knight outright. All for 350 pts and...5cp. Yeah, remember we told you about needing a lot of grots? Besides those grots can 'look out boss' the wounds away from the manz if the stars are right.
Wierdboy. Our go-to hq unit. The cheapest. Always useful. Oh-so fragile. But you need them. All the existing powers have gotten a buff to range wgich is very nice. And we got one extra good power to buff our bosses with +2 attacks and strength. This combo is brutal with the relic warboss. Other new powers are questionable. -1 ld for stuff around...hard to think of situations when it's worth the effort over smite. A horde smasher power is also super situational.
Warboss. Still green despite going up in price. Not as spammable though. But relics and a wierdboy buff make them super killy. A relik klaw warboss with a wierdboy buff and fight twice/fight after death strategem will have decent odds of bringing down an unharmed knight. If this guy is your warlord with +1 damage or +1 attack+str, the knight should better hide. All for 78 pts(min). Who else can do it. Though a non-relik non-buffed boss has become a bit worse with a price hike. But the relik + buffed option is so killy, you can forgive his less lucky cousin.
Index bikerboss. Still green. Has become even better with the reliks.
Tankbustas. Great if you run them as bad moonz with a shoot twice strategem. This, however, will require an extra detachment most of the time. Good news is bad moon relik is nice. Now you can hide tankbustas in deepstrike if you don't want them t1. Don't be cheap and give them at least a trukk though. Tankbustas are really expensive. And you want to shoot at least a couple turns to make their points back. Or use grot shield strategem. Or better both.
Teal:
Smasha gunz. Relatively killy. Not super fragile. Lost grot crew as a separate unit. The gun's still good but not as good as kmk used to be in the index.
Trukk. Cheaper now. Can be used as a gun platform for bustas and stuff.Has a sittuational use tying things up and dealing mw with ramming speed strategem. Though, a wagon is much better at it. You never know, though.
Yellow:
Deffkoptas. Have gone from red to yellow. They're still not amazing but not bad to have to score and probably even tie things up. 40 pts for a tl bigshoota one is probably still a bit too much but it's much better than what they used to be. Lost the bombs though (correct me if i'm wrong). Can be used to fill up fast attack slots. Besides, everyone has at least a couple blackreach koptas someehere on the shelf.
Lil meks. Have become more expensive and lost a bunch of options. But you can still run them with a kmb cause they had access to it in index. Deffskullz for extra killiness. Can still be nice to score the backfield, fill up detachments or even be used as a relatively reliable lazcannon if run as deff skullz.
OH CRAP.
What about Porting in the bustas and then Jumping a unit of 30 grots in front of them between you and the enemy. Now they cant shoot your precious bustas.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
koooaei wrote: So, do you guyz feel it's time to start painting the usefullness colors for orks? A lot more things have gone up the spectre.
'Ere we go. Stuff that i've tried allready.
Green:
Boyz. Still green. Still mean. Still needed for footslogging lists and still questionable for mech. They've become more expensive which is noticeable when you spam them. However, clan traits and strategems have made them, at very least, not worse than before. Though, the numbers of boyz will definitely go down in an average ork list.
Grots. Orks are super cp thirsty now. And what better way do we have of getting cp other than spamming grots? They still do nothing in terms of killing stuff but this cp are invaluable. The grot shield strategem is also a game changer. And besides, with the nerf to grot crews you'll need more backfield scoring and deepstrike denial. Another plus for grots.
Meganobz. Now that's a huge comeback from red to green. 35 pts for a basic meganob. Access to deepstrike. Able to go up to 72% success rate when making a charge out of deepstrike with Evil Sunz clan trait. Boom. Top tier unit right there. Drop 10 manz in your opponent's face. Fight twice. Dead stuff all around. Statystically killing a knight outright. All for 350 pts and...5cp. Yeah, remember we told you about needing a lot of grots? Besides those grots can 'look out boss' the wounds away from the manz if the stars are right.
Wierdboy. Our go-to hq unit. The cheapest. Always useful. Oh-so fragile. But you need them. All the existing powers have gotten a buff to range wgich is very nice. And we got one extra good power to buff our bosses with +2 attacks and strength. This combo is brutal with the relic warboss. Other new powers are questionable. -1 ld for stuff around...hard to think of situations when it's worth the effort over smite. A horde smasher power is also super situational.
Warboss. Still green despite going up in price. Not as spammable though. But relics and a wierdboy buff make them super killy. A relik klaw warboss with a wierdboy buff and fight twice/fight after death strategem will have decent odds of bringing down an unharmed knight. If this guy is your warlord with +1 damage or +1 attack+str, the knight should better hide. All for 78 pts(min). Who else can do it. Though a non-relik non-buffed boss has become a bit worse with a price hike. But the relik + buffed option is so killy, you can forgive his less lucky cousin.
Index bikerboss. Still green. Has become even better with the reliks.
Tankbustas. Great if you run them as bad moonz with a shoot twice strategem. This, however, will require an extra detachment most of the time. Good news is bad moon relik is nice. Now you can hide tankbustas in deepstrike if you don't want them t1. Don't be cheap and give them at least a trukk though. Tankbustas are really expensive. And you want to shoot at least a couple turns to make their points back. Or use grot shield strategem. Or better both.
Teal:
Smasha gunz. Relatively killy. Not super fragile. Lost grot crew as a separate unit. The gun's still good but not as good as kmk used to be in the index.
Trukk. Cheaper now. Can be used as a gun platform for bustas and stuff.Has a sittuational use tying things up and dealing mw with ramming speed strategem. Though, a wagon is much better at it. You never know, though.
Yellow:
Deffkoptas. Have gone from red to yellow in the heartbeat. They're still not amazing but not bad to have to score and probably even tie things up. 40 pts for a tl bigshoota one is probably still a bit too much but it's much better than what they used to be. Lost the bombs though (correct me if i'm wrong).
Lil meks. Have become more expensive and lost a bunch of options. But you can still run them with a kmb cause they had access to it in index. Deffskullz for extra killiness. Can still be nice to score the backfield, fill up detachments or even be used as a relatively reliable lazcannon if run as deff skullz.
U can but I feel as it is still a bit premature. Book has been out 3 days and no one has had enough time to play test.
Cause we are better than the people who blew orks out of proportion when the index dropped, right?
Add in traktor kannon as at least teal. Autohit is pretty good and there's plenty of flying vehicles around. Though problem is plenty of those which are hurt can easily remove 3-4 of them a turn without breaking a sweat :-/
tneva82 wrote: Add in traktor kannon as at least teal. Autohit is pretty good and there's plenty of flying vehicles around. Though problem is plenty of those which are hurt can easily remove 3-4 of them a turn without breaking a sweat :-/
Dr.Duck wrote: OH CRAP.
What about Porting in the bustas and then Jumping a unit of 30 grots in front of them between you and the enemy. Now they cant shoot your precious bustas.
For idea of walking up for bombs? If you are that close with tank bustas easy enough to simply go around and be closest to tank bustas and no more grot screen. Going to be pretty rare you can do that and NOT have something from enemy come around. Also it's T3 earliest and what if opponent charges those grots? That's right. You don't have 9" gap to deep strike into. Especially if you were to da jump grots into circle to prevent the move to other side and shoot tank bustas thing.
So what's going on with Battlewagons @ GW webstore? I suppose they're being re-packed to fit the new names? When they're back in stock is anyone's guess... Also means that independent retailers are not likely to be restocked until that happens either... soo I'm stuck with my old list for a while yet.
Dr.Duck wrote: OH CRAP.
What about Porting in the bustas and then Jumping a unit of 30 grots in front of them between you and the enemy. Now they cant shoot your precious bustas.
For idea of walking up for bombs? If you are that close with tank bustas easy enough to simply go around and be closest to tank bustas and no more grot screen. Going to be pretty rare you can do that and NOT have something from enemy come around. Also it's T3 earliest and what if opponent charges those grots? That's right. You don't have 9" gap to deep strike into. Especially if you were to da jump grots into circle to prevent the move to other side and shoot tank bustas thing.
Stuff Happens T2 while you fire rockets. Grots are just there to potentially save them from getting wiped. T3 you walk up and nade. Rest of the army is tying up stuff in cqc.
In most cases you can daisy chain something stupid with the grots . Any other vectors where your opponent can walk around the great grot wall you tie up with the boys you jumped T1 along with buggies and whatever else.
Im gonna facilitate this dream at some point. Plan of tying up units doesn't work against knights
Weazel wrote: So what's going on with Battlewagons @ GW webstore? I suppose they're being re-packed to fit the new names? When they're back in stock is anyone's guess... Also means that independent retailers are not likely to be restocked until that happens either... soo I'm stuck with my old list for a while yet.
Out of stock. People buying tons of them presumably with gun wagon and bonebreakers. GW's stocks aren't limited(remember more stock sitting around=more expenses for GW=less profits) so occcasionally things simply run out and GW doesn't do "take money, send items when we have more of them" style of sales.
Fairly common situation so unless something changes I assume that's the case.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Some more mathhammer. Was thinking how spanners with KMB in lootas would work up against magnus. In short: Swingy but average sliiiiiiightly better when you roll average 2 shots. Obviously for rounds you roll 1(wish the shots was per model and not per unit) spanners help. When you roll 3 you go worse. But all in all you still won't even with 4++ kill it with averages. Lootas with total of 4 shots per guy will cause 12.44 with extra 3.69 for total of 16 wounds. 5 wounds per guy will result in 19 wounds so slightly less than just lootas and 6 per guy will kill it but I would prefer lootas in terms of variance.
And of course 24" range sucks even with da jump. I don't want to be that close to Magnus! I likely would get charged as Magnus is likely in rear lines.
Would be better vs non-inv save tough targets if you plan to da jump+more dakka.
Agreed it's too early to do the colour coded units but I'll throw in some feedback in terms of my findings through playing.
A big squad of Warbikes has done work for me more than once now. I haven't even got my Trikeboss painted yet either so expecting even more when they can shoot and charge in the same turn. Great screen clearers but don't expect them to deal with heavier threats. Know their weaknesses and don't put them in combat with things that can hit back. They won't like it.
Deffkoptas are expensive but super fast and fly helps them get across the board. They are pests though, a distraction unit as much as anything.
Meganobz are great at 35 ppm stock and surprisingly quick as Evil Sunz. I'm probably going to start them on the board from now on when I bring them. They can take hits with 2+ and put them next to a vehicle at deployment so they can loot it.
I need to play more with Nobz. At the moment I don't see the point taking them dual choppa though, its an unusual Ork list that is lacking no AP multiple hits. For me they are better served taking Big Choppas and PKs to threaten tougher things.
I run my Painboy mostly because I've painted him very well (if I do say so myself) but I always forget to use his healing ability on characters because it's at the end of the movement phase. I feel he's worth more than what we first think if we factor in the D3 healing a turn. Particularly when used on our high wound characters on bikes, trikes etc. He's no slouch in combat either. The 6+++ is nice but not that relevant to my list, or many others I suspect outside of Green Tide.
Boyz feel like a tax now unless we build around them, which I refuse to do. I think the larger bases and ppm increase will kill them for lists that aren't focussed on a Green Tide. In my list, where I routinely take only 30, in 3 squads of 10 no less, they serve mostly to give LD10 to my other units if I don't get first turn and shootas hang back on objectives. They can do work if they reach combat, but if the opponent looks at them funny they die in droves.
Grots are our new CP providers. All hail the mighty bearers of CP! They also serve as the ultimate in cheap screening unit. Until they run away. But they won't get a chance to run away when my Nobz and Meganobz are holding them as shields. Hide them out of sight (and more than 6" away from another infantry unit) if they're on an objective.
Big Mek (index) feels somewhat cheap using him but again I made my own conversions that I'm really proud of so still going to run until its forbidden explicitly. Cheapest source of KFF and D3 vehicle heals. Don't expect much in combat out of him, he hits like a Nob, literally.
MA Big Mek is the guilt free, much more expensive version of the guy above with a better save, an extra wound, a power klaw and a half decent ranged weapon. He's also slower which may mean something when it comes to vehicle heals and KFF positioning for those of you who don't run Evil Sunz. I take one because he balances the guilt of taking my normal Big Mek. He's also a Nob in combat.
Zhadsnark is still a monster and still a steal at 2 pts cheaper than he used to be. Just make sure you protect him and kill your targets because the 4+ save and lack of any invuln or Supa Cybork body is not going to keep him alive against the targets you want to use him on. Evil Sunz warlord trait works well on him (fall back and charge). Only negative is lack of a bikerboss Waaaaaagh! aura so he only effects infantry, bizarrely. So don't expect him to allow any vehicles or bikes to charge, you'll need a Trikeboss for that.
Ever since I killed a misplaced Farseer with the Dakkajet, everyone at my LGS and in particular my main opponent always target it first. With quite a lot of prejudice. Its hard to say how good it is when it's always limping a little or dead after the first turn. If nothing else it draws the enemy fire. It doesn't have the output I expect compared to how it's discussed here. Also that farseer has never been misplaced again. I feel they are one trick pony's, and good screen clearers. But almost 150 pts to clear screens? That's 6 more warbikes....
Hole this wall of text helps someone! Just my findings! I'll add more as I play more varied lists.
It's still yellow. Nothing really changed. Not worth it in many occasions, though can be ice in certain edge cases of burning something like a bunch of devastators or reapers out of a ruin.
I need to play more with Nobz. At the moment I don't see the point taking them dual choppa though, its an unusual Ork list that is lacking no AP multiple hits. For me they are better served taking Big Choppas and PKs to threaten tougher things.
Big choppa+choppa as much as points allow. Choppa attack+big choppa atack.
One thing that I was reminded of in game yesterday: Facing flyers still suck. Bit better with lootas etc but sucks facing stuff you can't deal with anything but shooting.
SemperMortis wrote: Is anyone else running into the problem that our units are kind of crap without CP? I Feel like I am forced to take grotz to fill out a brigade or a 2nd/3rd battalion in order to get the CP i need to make my army decent.
Yes, but that's first world problems, right? Every marine player would murder us to get 30 point troops and a pile of awesome stratagems There are also few armies that do a better job than us when filling brigades.
In addition, mek guns have no access to any stratagems, and they still report back uniformly as being awesome.
Traktor Kannons are gold against flyers, from what I read. Auto-hit with solid S, AP, and D. You'll probably want to field more than a few, if you know you're facing a Fly heavy army, but they really help negate the traditional bad shooting of Orkz.
flandarz wrote: Traktor Kannons are gold against flyers, from what I read. Auto-hit with solid S, AP, and D. You'll probably want to field more than a few, if you know you're facing a Fly heavy army, but they really help negate the traditional bad shooting of Orkz.
Problem with them is them being soft and orks having often only 40% chance of going first...Dark eldars for example would be ideal target but 60% of times you can easily lose like half a dozen of them from the AT weapons they are packing :-/
Invul wrote: Wait wait wait, choppa nobz is legal? 5-attack dudes for 14 points?
As written, yes; that appears to be the case.
Intentional? Hard to say - we'll have to wait for the FAQ to know for sure.
We don't know that the choppa +1 attack stacks with itself yet...I'd wait for the FAQ personally before playing it on people you like.
There are dozens of weapons across all codices that work exactly this way.
If you have a choppa, that choppa makes an additional attack with the choppa profile.
If you have two choppas, each one makes an additional attack.
If you have a big choppa and a choppa, you can chose to make your three basic attacks with either weapon, and your choppa makes an additional attack with the choppa profile.
IMPORTANT: Choppas do not confer +1 attack, they simply allow to make an additional attack with a choppa
Weapons that do not work that way are explicitly worded differently, like killsaws, lightning claws, or most nid weapons that come in pairs.
That IS an issue... a Big Mek with KFF could help, but you're still looking at some pain regardless. Might behoove you to field some Bad Moonz Tankbustas too and pop the Moar Dakka Strat, if you need to.
An Actual Englishman wrote: I need to play more with Nobz. At the moment I don't see the point taking them dual choppa though, its an unusual Ork list that is lacking no AP multiple hits. For me they are better served taking Big Choppas and PKs to threaten tougher things.
The idea behind the dual choppa is to have cheap nobz that die first. For example, you would put 3 PK nobz and 7 dual choppa nobz in a unit, or 5 BC and 5 dual choppas. Equipping all nobz with special weapons is a huge investement, and often doesn't pay off since they will rarely enter combat at full strength.
They basically take the role of slugga/choppa nobz.
I run my Painboy mostly because I've painted him very well (if I do say so myself) but I always forget to use his healing ability on characters because it's at the end of the movement phase. I feel he's worth more than what we first think if we factor in the D3 healing a turn. Particularly when used on our high wound characters on bikes, trikes etc. He's no slouch in combat either. The 6+++ is nice but not that relevant to my list, or many others I suspect outside of Green Tide.
A trick I learned from watching DG players play: Put a small check-list on the back of your army list to make sure you don't miss any triggers. DG have a tons of auras that do mortal wounds at the beginnen or end of multiple phases, it's impossible to remember all of them without such a list.
Boyz feel like a tax now unless we build around them, which I refuse to do. I think the larger bases and ppm increase will kill them for lists that aren't focussed on a Green Tide. In my list, where I routinely take only 30, in 3 squads of 10 no less, they serve mostly to give LD10 to my other units if I don't get first turn and shootas hang back on objectives. They can do work if they reach combat, but if the opponent looks at them funny they die in droves.
Larger bases increase the charge range from transports
Ever since I killed a misplaced Farseer with the Dakkajet, everyone at my LGS and in particular my main opponent always target it first. With quite a lot of prejudice. Its hard to say how good it is when it's always limping a little or dead after the first turn. If nothing else it draws the enemy fire. It doesn't have the output I expect compared to how it's discussed here. Also that farseer has never been misplaced again. I feel they are one trick pony's, and good screen clearers. But almost 150 pts to clear screens? That's 6 more warbikes....
They also wound most dark eldar vehicles and eldar bikes on 3+, with the option to bump their BS to 3+. That might be worth something all on its own.
I feel like the dakka jet has pulled ahead of the burna bommer since it can benefit from DDD and stratagems, where the burna bomb does not. I also want a wazzbom blastajet now.
CaptainO wrote: Does prepared position strat work with kff for a 4++ save turn 1?
No. It gives you benefit of cover which is +1 to save roll and specifically said to not work with inv save. It is also doesn't stack with blood axes so if you have all blood axe in field keep in mind they only benefit from that if enemy comes within 18" first turn.
CaptainO wrote: Does prepared position strat work with kff for a 4++ save turn 1?
No. It gives you benefit of cover which is +1 to save roll and specifically said to not work with inv save. It is also doesn't stack with blood axes so if you have all blood axe in field keep in mind they only benefit from that if enemy comes within 18" first turn.
not just that, with prepared positions all ye grot units including mek guns, kans etc also get cover which they don't as BA.
on another note I wanna for the madness try mobbing up 30 meganobz then da jumping them on the first turn... only 1050 pts... 90 s10 -3 attacks
CaptainO wrote: Does prepared position strat work with kff for a 4++ save turn 1?
No. It gives you benefit of cover which is +1 to save roll and specifically said to not work with inv save. It is also doesn't stack with blood axes so if you have all blood axe in field keep in mind they only benefit from that if enemy comes within 18" first turn.
not just that, with prepared positions all ye grot units including mek guns, kans etc also get cover which they don't as BA
Well yes that. Point is it doesn't give 4++ and it doesn't stack up with blood axe bonus. Of course if you don't have blood axe bonus in the first place that helps. But something to keep in mind if you have largely blood axe force. 2 CP could end up being much wasted for little gain.
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Latro_ wrote: on another note I wanna for the madness try mobbing up 30 meganobz then da jumping them on the first turn... only 1050 pts... 90 s10 -3 attacks
Maximum amount of mega nobz in squad=10. You can mob up 2 units. Turn 1=20 meganobz maximum. For 30 you would need to wait for 2nd turn.
The idea behind the dual choppa is to have cheap nobz that die first. For example, you would put 3 PK nobz and 7 dual choppa nobz in a unit, or 5 BC and 5 dual choppas. Equipping all nobz with special weapons is a huge investement, and often doesn't pay off since they will rarely enter combat at full strength.
They basically take the role of slugga/choppa nobz.
I see. Makes sense in that case. I thought I had seen people thinking of taking full units of them. I
A trick I learned from watching DG players play: Put a small check-list on the back of your army list to make sure you don't miss any triggers. DG have a tons of auras that do mortal wounds at the beginnen or end of multiple phases, it's impossible to remember all of them without such a list.
Great idea this! Will be using this moving forward though knowing me I’ll still forget.
Larger bases increase the charge range from transports
Lol your positivity is as inspiring as always! Them silver linings.
They also wound most dark eldar vehicles and eldar bikes on 3+, with the option to bump their BS to 3+. That might be worth something all on its own.
I feel like the dakka jet has pulled ahead of the burna bommer since it can benefit from DDD and stratagems, where the burna bomb does not. I also want a wazzbom blastajet now.
Yea for me I think the wazzbomb is where it’s at. I’m planning on using all buggies except the Squig Buggy and 12 bikes. I’m not much afraid of chaff so the Dakkajet rarely gets chance to shine. He’s better than the burna and blitza though I think.
I was wondering : does "Big Killa Boss" (Warlord trait) work on shooting attacks or only on melee ? It doesn't specify in the french codex but the translations are sometimes completely off...
My Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun would be very happy to wound on 5+ at worst when he rolls snake eyes for the strength of his gun.
Nym wrote: I was wondering : does "Big Killa Boss" (Warlord trait) work on shooting attacks or only on melee ? It doesn't specify in the french codex but the translations are sometimes completely off...
My Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun would be very happy to wound on 5+ at worst when he rolls snake eyes for the strength of his gun.
Hmm good idea. At least english referred when attacking(IIRC) which would be both. And of course rolling average 7 means wounding T7 on 3+ and T8 on 4+ so could be handy. Though sniping is fun idea and it's almost as good with S2 vs vehicles still at least.
Nym wrote: I was wondering : does "Big Killa Boss" (Warlord trait) work on shooting attacks or only on melee ? It doesn't specify in the french codex but the translations are sometimes completely off...
My Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun would be very happy to wound on 5+ at worst when he rolls snake eyes for the strength of his gun.
I'm pretty sure it works with either. I tried a game with that trait, but the randomness of the SAG did not swing my way so it ended up doing nothing. Could be pretty scar though, especially on a deathskulls SAG
The idea behind the dual choppa is to have cheap nobz that die first. For example, you would put 3 PK nobz and 7 dual choppa nobz in a unit, or 5 BC and 5 dual choppas. Equipping all nobz with special weapons is a huge investement, and often doesn't pay off since they will rarely enter combat at full strength.
They basically take the role of slugga/choppa nobz.
I see. Makes sense in that case. I thought I had seen people thinking of taking full units of them. I
Well the full unit is a cheap anti infantry tool that can rides in a trukk or bonebreaka. Due to the green tide nerf we now may have some problem in dealing with hordes and screeners since we basically only have boyz for that role and maybe warbikes and dakkajets, which are both decent at doing that most but not top units.
I'm not sold on giving nobz other upgrades than ammo runts because we have more effective anti tank in melee and shooting. Due to the bonebreakas, tankbustas, lootas and mek gunz I don't think we need those 3 pks hidden by cheaper bodies. I'd go with tellyported Meganobz or squadrons of Dreads for that role instead. 5 big choppas are not that effective against armored stuff. I'm usually not in favor of bringing versatile units that don't excel in anything, I prefer fielding units with a specific role but very good at it. Sticking special melee weapons in the unit makes nobz worse or basically the same against infantries while being more expensive, but not enough killy to threaten armored stuff.
So, 10 bare bones nobz or 5+ Meganobz, that's my 2 cents about that.
PiñaColada wrote: I'm pretty sure it works with either. I tried a game with that trait, but the randomness of the SAG did not swing my way so it ended up doing nothing. Could be pretty scar though, especially on a deathskulls SAG
Well, I happen to be playing Deathskullz. So far my tests point to it being the best vehicle killa in our whole army (for Deathskulls), as long as the target doesn't have a strong invulnerable save (3++). It's really, really cheap for its damage potential and denies Slay The Warlord to our ennemies by staying in the backfield.
BTW what's been people's experience with gorkanaut? Mine was rather dissapointing but then again having basically only command barge, transcendant c'tan and nightbringer trio where to go maybe to be expected...Still felt 3 dreadnoughts would have been better.
That would be lulz moment)
