The open topped rule trumps everything, that's the fact.
Every positive or negative modifier affecting the Vehicle also affects the occupants, so they people inside can receive +2 BS from both Alphus and Chilling Efficiency but they can never benefit themselves from any source of reroll (since it isn't a modifier)
KurtAngle2 wrote: The open topped rule trumps everything, that's the fact.
Every positive or negative modifier affecting the Vehicle also affects the occupants, so they people inside can receive +2 BS from both Alphus and Chilling Efficiency but they can never benefit themselves from any source of reroll (since it isn't a modifier)
Happy to be proven wrong, but please can you provide the FAQ extract so I can see wording.
So far I dont see how the open topped rule would trump everything.
KurtAngle2 wrote: The open topped rule trumps everything, that's the fact.
Every positive or negative modifier affecting the Vehicle also affects the occupants, so they people inside can receive +2 BS from both Alphus and Chilling Efficiency but they can never benefit themselves from any source of reroll (since it isn't a modifier)
Happy to be proven wrong, but please can you provide the FAQ extract so I can see wording.
So far I dont see how the open topped rule would trump everything.
Because Open Topped is an exception to the rule that units inside transports are not in game and therefore do not benefit from anything
KurtAngle2 wrote: The open topped rule trumps everything, that's the fact.
Every positive or negative modifier affecting the Vehicle also affects the occupants, so they people inside can receive +2 BS from both Alphus and Chilling Efficiency but they can never benefit themselves from any source of reroll (since it isn't a modifier)
Happy to be proven wrong, but please can you provide the FAQ extract so I can see wording.
So far I dont see how the open topped rule would trump everything.
Because Open Topped is an exception to the rule that units inside transports are not in game and therefore do not benefit from anything
I have checked both the GSCFAQ and BRBFAQ and I cant find what you are referring too.
Sorry to be a pain, but can you or someone else please show where this stated Not trying to be pedantic, I genuinely want to know in case it comes up in one of my games.
@Fatboynoslim it's not something in the FAQ that your missing,
I think it's just the order of operations that your doing in a different order.
As others have said:
1.The passengers are not affected by auras. Fine
2. The passengers are affected by any modifiers that affect the vehicle.
3. The vehicle is affected by auras, including ones that give it a modifier.
4. Passengers get the +1 not because they are affected by the aura but because they are in a vehicle affected by a modifier.
I have a question, that I don´t think have been discussed earlier.
When we deploy our army, we can either deploy it in deep-strike reserv or as a "blip". The blip can not be within 9" from an enemy unit, and an enemy unit can not get whithin 9" of the blip. One of my regular opponents have just bought 20 of the "new" infiltrators. If he were to get to get to deploy first, he could teoretically deploy his infintrators right outside my deploymentzone. Which would mean that i would lose 9" of my deplymentzone. Or is there something that we are missing?
KhazModan wrote: I have a question, that I don´t think have been discussed earlier.
When we deploy our army, we can either deploy it in deep-strike reserv or as a "blip". The blip can not be within 9" from an enemy unit, and an enemy unit can not get whithin 9" of the blip. One of my regular opponents have just bought 20 of the "new" infiltrators. If he were to get to get to deploy first, he could teoretically deploy his infintrators right outside my deploymentzone. Which would mean that i would lose 9" of my deplymentzone. Or is there something that we are missing?
I believe, these Primaris infiltrators can only deploy 9 inch outside the enemies deployment zone. If he would be that bold then you can easily add 3 blieps (stratagem) and move 3 blieps (stratagem) and put 3 blieps underground (stratagem). Deployment would not be an issue but arriving close with 'deep strike' is another thing. But on the other hand, the enemy player just spend 400+ points on 20 primaris models with low damage output. Jackal bikes with demolition charge are good at removing these units and you could also use perfect ambush, +1 charge bonuses and reroll charge/dice for getting a unit in close combat. If you got the range, you could hit the primaris with a single rock saw, kill one or two and trap the unit from falling back and kill it in his own close combat phase.
This is also a place where genestealers shine - move and advance and charge means on average you go about 17", and if they have set up 12" from your DZ you can start from around a corner. Then your next move (assuming you survive) lands you in their DZ...
[edited later on reflection] or you could gain basically the same movement by disembarking any other unit from a transport and charging instead.
Jackal Alphus
Primus re-roll to wound 1s (if i remember correctly)
Certain warlord traits etc
What weapons do I actually try to have benefit from these?
When I've marked my enemy's big monster with all these bonuses, what do I actually kill it with?
Mining lasers are super short range.
Atalan ridgerunners seem pretty bad for pure firepower.
Goliath trucks have bad firepower too.
Brood brothers stuff isn't <CULT> and can't benefit from the buffs.
There isn't really that much shooty stuff in the codex. Neophytes with mining lasers, handflamer acolytes, jackals with demo charges. They are all lacking in one way or another. Most often range.
I believe it's much more effective to take shooty stuff in AM or even Tyranid detachments. And bring characters that benefit melee instead.
Mellon wrote: There isn't really that much shooty stuff in the codex. Neophytes with mining lasers, handflamer acolytes, jackals with demo charges. They are all lacking in one way or another. Most often range.
I believe it's much more effective to take shooty stuff in AM or even Tyranid detachments. And bring characters that benefit melee instead.
I sometimes take 3x 10 man squads of neophytes with 2x mining lasers each in a bladed cog detachment with a jackal alphus and a magus with the bladed cog warlord trait to re-roll wounds on a target unit. Deep strike the magus and neophytes near the target unit and within 6" of the jackal alphus for the +1 to hit. 6 lascannon shots hitting on 3's and wounding on 3's re-rolling.
A rusted claw detachment with 5 jackals+demo charges mathematically does a few more wounds but costs 4 CP for the strat combo.
The new Genestealer Cult characters all got raised to $30 each, just a heads-up in case you wanted to get some for cheaper before other outlets catch on. Ridgerunner was also increased to $50
The biggest difficulty was deciding on the Acolytes - Debated 15 man unit (11 w hand flamers, 4 demo, cult icon) and 5 man min unit, but too tight on points.
Didn't wanna go for the super competitive 20 hand flamers or 6 rock saws (besides points not allowing for it), and think this gives a good balance/variety for semi-competitive.
The biggest difficulty was deciding on the Acolytes - Debated 15 man unit (11 w hand flamers, 4 demo, cult icon) and 5 man min unit, but too tight on points.
Didn't wanna go for the super competitive 20 hand flamers or 6 rock saws (besides points not allowing for it), and think this gives a good balance/variety for semi-competitive.
Thoughts?
Yeah, I get what you say about the acolytes. You are probably better off swapping the acolytes with demo charges for another unit of jackals with demo charges. Or maybe scrap them all together, because as it is now, you have three units that really wants the Lying in Wait stratagem. And that's not optimal.
Also, there are some lists you are going to struggle seriously against with that little shooting. Imagine a drukhari cabal list with flying transports and vehicles everywhere for example. Also a list with three knights (or two knights and an armiger) are good gatekeeper lists to compare against.
The biggest difficulty was deciding on the Acolytes - Debated 15 man unit (11 w hand flamers, 4 demo, cult icon) and 5 man min unit, but too tight on points.
Didn't wanna go for the super competitive 20 hand flamers or 6 rock saws (besides points not allowing for it), and think this gives a good balance/variety for semi-competitive.
Thoughts?
Yeah, I get what you say about the acolytes. You are probably better off swapping the acolytes with demo charges for another unit of jackals with demo charges. Or maybe scrap them all together, because as it is now, you have three units that really wants the Lying in Wait stratagem. And that's not optimal.
Also, there are some lists you are going to struggle seriously against with that little shooting. Imagine a drukhari cabal list with flying transports and vehicles everywhere for example. Also a list with three knights (or two knights and an armiger) are good gatekeeper lists to compare against.
Ah thats a good point, think I was leaning towards the Jackals more for the cool factor more than anything. What are some good recommendations to increase the shooting in general?
Imho, shooting is best done by AM brood brothers or Tyranids.
Basilisks, wyverns, Vultures, tank commanders from AM.
Hive guard or termagaunts with devourers from Tyranids.
If you want to shoot with GSC you use neophytes with mining lasers, jackals with demo charges, acolytes with hand flamers or possibly brood brother mortar teams.
I guess I'm left at a bit of a loss of what to use the Jackal Alphus for. Bam, +1 to hit for all my guys shooting at the target, but what are those guys? 24" mining lasers on foot troops?
I guess I'm left at a bit of a loss of what to use the Jackal Alphus for. Bam, +1 to hit for all my guys shooting at the target, but what are those guys? 24" mining lasers on foot troops?
Pretty much. And demo charges from atalan Jackals. Possibly ridgerunner, but 80+ p is too much for a single mining laser.
I guess I'm left at a bit of a loss of what to use the Jackal Alphus for. Bam, +1 to hit for all my guys shooting at the target, but what are those guys? 24" mining lasers on foot troops?
You can drop the Alphus and Kelermorph in 2nd-turn with squads of neophytes with either lasers or seismic cannons — which will be in 12" range for the better damage profiles — or put the neophytes in goliath trucks and rush them up the board to get in firing range.
If you take Bladed Cog neophytes, their autoguns, grenade launchers, and two short-range lascannons hit on 3's with the Jackal buff, along with 4's for the Twin Autocannons and Stubber while it moves up — if your opponent lets it get within 6" of something you can use it's demo charge, which also hits on 3's.Granted the truck will blow up easy and Neophytes will keel over to a small breeze — but it's a decent weapons platform, it adds a solid amount of 1st-turn board points, and the trucker squads become very annoying for your opponent if they aren't brought down before you deep strike in 2nd turn.
Mellon wrote: Imho, shooting is best done by AM brood brothers or Tyranids.
Basilisks, wyverns, Vultures, tank commanders from AM.
Hive guard or termagaunts with devourers from Tyranids.
If you want to shoot with GSC you use neophytes with mining lasers, jackals with demo charges, acolytes with hand flamers or possibly brood brother mortar teams.
Righto tried to tweak it and made two lists w more shooting:
Mellon wrote: Imho, shooting is best done by AM brood brothers or Tyranids.
Basilisks, wyverns, Vultures, tank commanders from AM.
Hive guard or termagaunts with devourers from Tyranids.
If you want to shoot with GSC you use neophytes with mining lasers, jackals with demo charges, acolytes with hand flamers or possibly brood brother mortar teams.
Righto tried to tweak it and made two lists w more shooting:
Please excuse if I'm missing the mark with these, pretty new to GSC so just trying to wrap my head around all the options!
In the second list i'd swap out the neophytes for brood brothers to save 13-18 points per unit and add in another 2 jackals with demo charges to make 2x 5 jackal units. The leftover points could be used for another acolyte w/ rocksaw
jifel wrote: I’ve also been running 20 Aberrants and have talked to Nick extensively on the subject. Their durability is much better than Acolytes and that’s very important. They don’t have the same “here’s a dead knight” factor, but otherwise hit many mid-tier targets better, and the ability to fight in death is absolutely crucial in the Ork or chaos matchup. I started out with 65 Acolytes/10 Aberrants in my gsc lists, and have switched to 35 Acolytes/20 Aberrants and I’m honestly getting much better results.
Aberrants also have a smaller footprint as mentioned above and can hide in terrain much more easily.
I'm getting back into GSC again, and I like me some Aberrants. Would you mind posting your current list? Would be nice to have a template to work with.
Btw, Nanavati is playing for team England on this years ETC, sporting 3x10 Aberrants, among other things. Yeah I know it's a team list, but still cool.
I'm currently working on this list. It's for a small friendship tournament with unusual restrictions: 1000p, one detachment, min size units only. So I decided to base it around aberrants, partly because they are actually dangerous at minimum size and partly because I love the models. These restricitons means this is more a listbuilding exercise than a template for regular listbuilding.
I'm really curious to see how Nanavatis army does!
ph34r wrote: I guess I'm left at a bit of a loss of what to use the Jackal Alphus for. Bam, +1 to hit for all my guys shooting at the target, but what are those guys? 24" mining lasers on foot troops?
I actually use the +1 to hit against infantry targets more than vehicles, since most of the time my melee threats can handle armor and the primary concern of the on-table portion of the army is to clear the way for them. Generally Jackal packs and Goliath Trucks make up the bulk of my shooting, so the Alphus tends to hang out with the Trucks while her packmates rove ahead (taking advantage of the extended leash). I tend to leave the Mining Lasers to the Wolfquads and give Neophytes Seismic Cannons instead for anti-infantry work, as Wolfquads get the benefits of an extended leash from the Alphus and superior mobility to better take advantage of the weapon. Jackal Packs are also a bit more durable than Neophyte squads due to their to-hit penalty and toughness bump, so the laser will generally live longer too.
Also worth noting that as a stand-alone the Alphus is a rather handy tool to keep lightly armored support characters suppressed. She also makes a good warlord since her innate -1 to hit makes her an unappealing target most of the time and her stand-off nature tends to keep her safe while the other characters tend to require being at the front lines to do what they need to do.
The idea is the Patriarch and the Iconward camp behind the 3 brood brothers and the 3 Neophyte Squads walking up the table. The Shotgun Neophytes and anything else not called “mortar team” or “Acolyte Hybrid” starts on the board. Acolytes get swept up with the Stratagem and then we drop one Laying in wait and one Perfect ambush on turns 2 and 3.
Kelermorph does his thing, sometimes the Shotgun Neophytes join him, other times they just grab linebreaker and harass backfield objective holders.
The idea is the Patriarch and the Iconward camp behind the 3 brood brothers and the 3 Neophyte Squads walking up the table. The Shotgun Neophytes and anything else not called “mortar team” or “Acolyte Hybrid” starts on the board. Acolytes get swept up with the Stratagem and then we drop one Laying in wait and one Perfect ambush on turns 2 and 3.
Kelermorph does his thing, sometimes the Shotgun Neophytes join him, other times they just grab linebreaker and harass backfield objective holders.
+1 str at 6" is not worth the loss of range. triply so when you won't even lying in wait them because you have the flamer mob and bikes taking up those. Switch the shotgun neophytes back to autoguns.
Your cults and what units are under what kind of look like a mess. Buffs are in the wrong place. Remember almost everything is <Cult> Keyworded and can't cross benefit.
Kelemorph should be in the Rusted Claw detachment to be able to buff your more shooty neophytes.
Patriarch should be rusted claw to stop moral from destroying your Neophytes.
Abberants but without Twisted Helix? Why are you missing out on the fight twice strat? You don't want to risk them failing their charge either they are the prime Perfect Ambush target and don't need 4AE.
Clamavus can't buff the charge range of any of your combat units.
I would almost completely switch the TH and 4AE detachments. If you want the str on your acolytes use the Iconward.
Honestly I've been playing Mono-GSC lately and I found it to be more powerful than Tyr + GSC. Tyranids are a one-trick pony at best right now and literally eats you CPs for the classic GS Slingshot combo + attack twice, leaving you with few CPs to do all the good tricks GSC has to offer.
Also I've been building all my lists using a hefty contingent of Neophytes with support Characters like Sanctus/Alphus/Iconward to give the Cult a decent early game (since Brood Brothers literally do no damage and are there only for detachment filling purposes) and players like Nick Navanati who have been playing GSC since their release in February seem to agree with me (I decided to go with Hive Cult Neophytes and Grenade Launcher, Nick went for Bladed Cog Neophytes with Webbers and Mining Lasers).
KurtAngle2 wrote: Honestly I've been playing Mono-GSC lately and I found it to be more powerful than Tyr + GSC. Tyranids are a one-trick pony at best right now and literally eats you CPs for the classic GS Slingshot combo + attack twice, leaving you with few CPs to do all the good tricks GSC has to offer.
Also I've been building all my lists using a hefty contingent of Neophytes with support Characters like Sanctus/Alphus/Iconward to give the Cult a decent early game (since Brood Brothers literally do no damage and are there only for detachment filling purposes) and players like Nick Navanati who have been playing GSC since their release in February seem to agree with me (I decided to go with Hive Cult Neophytes and Grenade Launcher, Nick went for Bladed Cog Neophytes with Webbers and Mining Lasers).
How do the Hive Cult creed work out for you? Does it give a lot of resilience?
KurtAngle2 wrote: Honestly I've been playing Mono-GSC lately and I found it to be more powerful than Tyr + GSC. Tyranids are a one-trick pony at best right now and literally eats you CPs for the classic GS Slingshot combo + attack twice, leaving you with few CPs to do all the good tricks GSC has to offer.
Also I've been building all my lists using a hefty contingent of Neophytes with support Characters like Sanctus/Alphus/Iconward to give the Cult a decent early game (since Brood Brothers literally do no damage and are there only for detachment filling purposes) and players like Nick Navanati who have been playing GSC since their release in February seem to agree with me (I decided to go with Hive Cult Neophytes and Grenade Launcher, Nick went for Bladed Cog Neophytes with Webbers and Mining Lasers).
How do the Hive Cult creed work out for you? Does it give a lot of resilience?
Not really, it's the best though for damage output since it gives an additional +1 to Hit on one unit and the reroll 1s to hit that you prolly give to a Brood coven Magus. The creed bonuses are not bad per se but you are taking that for Warlord + Stratagem which are the best thing about it.
KurtAngle2 wrote: Honestly I've been playing Mono-GSC lately and I found it to be more powerful than Tyr + GSC. Tyranids are a one-trick pony at best right now and literally eats you CPs for the classic GS Slingshot combo + attack twice, leaving you with few CPs to do all the good tricks GSC has to offer.
Also I've been building all my lists using a hefty contingent of Neophytes with support Characters like Sanctus/Alphus/Iconward to give the Cult a decent early game (since Brood Brothers literally do no damage and are there only for detachment filling purposes) and players like Nick Navanati who have been playing GSC since their release in February seem to agree with me (I decided to go with Hive Cult Neophytes and Grenade Launcher, Nick went for Bladed Cog Neophytes with Webbers and Mining Lasers).
How do the Hive Cult creed work out for you? Does it give a lot of resilience?
Not really, it's the best though for damage output since it gives an additional +1 to Hit on one unit and the reroll 1s to hit that you prolly give to a Brood coven Magus. The creed bonuses are not bad per se but you are taking that for Warlord + Stratagem which are the best thing about it.
Ah of course, that makes a lot of sense.
Thanks for the explanation.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Could you share an example of what one of your lists look like?
KurtAngle2 wrote: Honestly I've been playing Mono-GSC lately and I found it to be more powerful than Tyr + GSC. Tyranids are a one-trick pony at best right now and literally eats you CPs for the classic GS Slingshot combo + attack twice, leaving you with few CPs to do all the good tricks GSC has to offer.
Also I've been building all my lists using a hefty contingent of Neophytes with support Characters like Sanctus/Alphus/Iconward to give the Cult a decent early game (since Brood Brothers literally do no damage and are there only for detachment filling purposes) and players like Nick Navanati who have been playing GSC since their release in February seem to agree with me (I decided to go with Hive Cult Neophytes and Grenade Launcher, Nick went for Bladed Cog Neophytes with Webbers and Mining Lasers).
How do the Hive Cult creed work out for you? Does it give a lot of resilience?
Not really, it's the best though for damage output since it gives an additional +1 to Hit on one unit and the reroll 1s to hit that you prolly give to a Brood coven Magus. The creed bonuses are not bad per se but you are taking that for Warlord + Stratagem which are the best thing about it.
Ah of course, that makes a lot of sense.
Thanks for the explanation.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Could you share an example of what one of your lists look like?
It doesn't look like it made it over here, but Anvil Industries released their Boilerplate Renegades. A squad of 10 neophytes runs 35 USD which makes it cheaper than GW and about the same as what you can get from a discounter.
Blinkingspirit wrote: Newbie GSC player here (though not new to 40k). Does someone have Unit grading guide?
You mean something like this?
Very good:
- Acolytes in big units with either rocksaws or handflamers
- Neophytes with mining lasers
- Patriarch
- Atalan Jackals with demo charges
- Jackal Alphus
- Aberrants
- Iconward in a broodsurge detachment
Useful:
- Brood brother heavy weapon squad with mortars
- Kelermorph
- Clamavus
- Sanctus w sniper rifle
- brood brothers without any extra equipment
- Magus
- Primus
This is just my hunch based on what is usually recommended. I'm not a particularly competent player, so take with a pinch of salt :-)
Automatically Appended Next Post: And welcome to the cult!
A = Autoinclude or so strong that you're deliberately nerfing yourself by not taking it B = Very good C = Decent D = Niche pick F = Unplayable
Patriarch : A (The best HQ our Codex has to offer. He's a melee powerhouse who makes the best use of our combat oriented Relics/Psychic Powers/Warlord Traits whilst simultaneously unlocking the Broodcoven stratagem and granting you a 6" fearless bubble) Magus : C (This HQ is generally picked to give unlock the second Psychic power in a detachment and for a supporting Warlord trait like Single Minded Obsession/Hivelord. His price is however too steep at 80 pts since he doesn't offer anything else aside from the aforementioned Psychic Power and for 45 pts more we can get a Patriarch that casts the same way a Magus does. No idea why they didn't give him the ability to cast 2 powers per turn since he really does nothing else) Primus : B (Despite being a cheap "combat" oriented HQs, he's there to provide a +1 WS Aura and a reroll 1s to wound on a designated unit when deployed. Best HQ to give Alien Majesty Warlord Trait since it gives a bit more freedom in the positioning department when charging with your Acolytes/Aberrants.) Acolyte Iconward : A (Our cheapest HQs which is also needed for the Deliverance Broodsurge formation which is as of now autoinclude for every GSC list since it gives you in tandem with a Clavamus a rerollable 8"/7" as C4AE charge to your deadliest unit per points in the army. Also gives you a FNP like save coupled with a reroll to morale and eventually +1 Strenght when equipped with the Relic banner) Abominant : D (Desperately needs either a price decrease or a removal of the -1 to hit. Having only 3 attacks and being forced to either take the Hammer relic or be near a Primus not to suffer the nerf he has received is too much when you consider the fact that the bonus he gives to Aberrants is an aura and not that great too. I'd rather get a Patriarch at his points level since he's only 20 point cheaper...) Jackal Alphus : C (Not an autoinclude since many GSC builds go full melee and leave only Brood Brothers on the board. But if you're going for a shooty GSC force on the ground you need at least 1 if not 2 Alphus for a +1 BS on chosen unit within 36". The added shooting is a nice bonus to have and the price point seems spot on)
Acolyte Hybrids : A (Definitely the best unit in our codex given the complete reliance we have on them for anti-infantry and anti-tank purposes when equipped with Rock saws. They're the staple unit in all our lists and can be equipped for any job. 7 points per model well spent and even if they die to a stiff breeze they're perhaps the most killy unit per points in the game) Neophytes : B (Your other proper GSC unit is a 5 points per model guard model with a LD 8 and an added Autopistol. You're not playing them stock because they would be fundamentally played as Brood Brothers but at a pricier cost so you're taking certain Special/Heavy weapons depending on the Cult Creed you choose) Brood Brothers : B (Good for filling detachments and deployment requirements on board, for anything else they're somewhat decent at taking damage but piss poor at anything else)
Hybrid Metamorphs : D (Technically a more killy Acolyte but with a different Tactical Role and of course pricier. They would technically be our best damage dealer the codex has to offer but they offer neither the flexibility of Acolytes nor the necessary Tactical Role needed to fill the detachments that unlock more CPs and additional characters) Aberrant : A (The most tanky unit our codex has to offer and equipped to deal with anything since they are both anti-infantry and anti-vehicle at the same time. Strong as hell when given the Twisted Helix Cult Creed if only for the stratagem or in an Anointed Throng formation to unlock a similar stratagem to the Twisted Helix's one) Purestrain Genestealers : F (A complete insult to all GSC Players. Pricier, no weapon options, no Cult Creeds and fewer sinergies/stratagem than Hivestrain ones. They serve no purpose in our army and even at the same price point of Hivestrains they wouldn't have been taken at all. Utterly shocking that they thought we would be paying 15 PPM for these) Clavamus : A (Gives +1" to charges. This is enough for this character to be AUTOTAKE whenever you build a GSC list) Locus : D (Too pricey for a mediocre fighter, bad rules for a bodyguard of our characters. His bodyguard rule is completely unplayable since it only works on a wound basis and not on the entire damage dealt. Whilst you could be saving a lascannon on a 4+ thanks to a nearby model dying within 3", this guy would be taking an equivalent mortal wound per EACH wound the character would have suffered from such lascannon on a 2+ in an army where EVERYBODY is technically a bodyguard for a character) Sanctus : B (C if equipped with Knife) (When equipped with the Relic Sniper Rifle this guy can be a real pain in the ass for Characters and even worse if they happen to be Psykers as well. The knife variant is generally not worth it since it suffers from so many additional variables and gets to be attacked in a melee fight if he doesn't kill what he eventually charged.) Kelermorph : A (IKSO, SIX PISTOLS!) (60 mere points for a Character that shoots 6 BS2+S4 AP-1 D2 shots with additional rolls for every successfull initial hit whilst being able to target characters as well and letting other units near him reroll 1s to hit when killing something? One of the reasons for multiple detachments is also the ability to take TWO of them! Let's go, Six Pistols!) Nexos : B (Not bad, not great. It's 50 points for 2-3 CPs at most and objective holding. Take it if you have spare points or going Mono-Cult, else it's not necessary) Biophagus : C (If you have spare points and a unit of Aberrants the one time Buff might be worthwhile (and not being an aura is certainly nice since he can go smack something after having done his job. Not terribly strong but at 35 points per model this guy still brings a better buff than the Abominant)
Achilles Ridgerunner : D (Not as cheap as we initially hoped, very limited in sinergies, no Cult Creed and being loaded with a Heavy weapon on a BS4+ 14" platform without a way to ignore its Heavy penalty is just bad. Also we can already smash big things in both Melee and Shooting when our troops are properly equipped for the job so I don't see a reason - perhaps the cool factor? - to ever bring this model into your list) Atalant Jackals : B (They're either equipped with their Bombs to deal with Medium/Big sized things or taken in a Brigade to fill a Fast Attack slot and reach objectives to score points. Their damage is bad but their durability seems fine at only 10 points per model with T4 and -1 to hit as well) Sentinels of any kind : C (Just slot fillers and objective holders, don't expect much more but they're surprisingly durable for the points)
Leman Russes : D (BS4+ and no equivalent Regiment bonuses make them redudant and statistically bad at dealing their job compared to the rest of the codex) Brood Brothers Heavy Weapons Squad : B (Great objective holders, they fill the Heavy Support slots in a Brigade with a classic 3x3 Mortar Teams) Goliath Rockgrinders : D (A melee vehicle with almost all its weapon being designated as long range support with no way to ignore the Heavy penalties on a BS4+ platform at best and no way to deepstrike like our outher melee units. The single way to play them is using a Clearance Incinerator which happens to be the most expensive weapon in our codex, skyrocketing its cost to 110 pts per model - or 16 Acolytes if you want to use them as our measure of comparison -. Great concept, horrible execution) Goliath Truck : C (A lightweight transport and a shooting platform designed for Neophytes. Its open topped rule at least gives our onboard Neophytes a way to benefit from Alphus +1 BS on designated targets. If they were 15/20 points cheaper we would be taking them in some lists I believe but now they're quite niche if you ask me) Cult Chimera : F (Useless since it only trasports Brood Brothers and their role is just to fill slots and provide cheap troops. Never take them) Tectonic Fragdrill : F (Expensive for what it offers, bad rules and worst of all it occupies a precious Detachment...no just no please!)
Just to clarify, Biophagus can buff as many Aberrant units as you have in your army, but only one per movement phase.
For instance, Nanavati has 3x10 Aberrants in his ETC list, so his Biophagus (with Familiar) can buff all three units during a game, for 35pts. Pretty good, but as noted, not an autotake.
N.I.B. wrote: Just to clarify, Biophagus can buff as many Aberrant units as you have in your army, but only one per movement phase.
For instance, Nanavati has 3x10 Aberrants in his ETC list, so his Biophagus (with Familiar) can buff all three units during a game, for 35pts. Pretty good, but as noted, not an autotake.
Yeah but most times it's generally happening one time due to the deep strike + ability restriction
Lord Clinto wrote: I don't recall seeing anyone taking/talking about taking a Baneblade or Shadowsword in a SHA detachment. Is this not a thing?
Imho, the negative thing with the huge tanks is that the meta is geared at killing knights. So a superheavy generally dies too soon to do much good. It's definitely a thing, but it is not hardcore competitive.
Lord Clinto wrote: I don't recall seeing anyone taking/talking about taking a Baneblade or Shadowsword in a SHA detachment. Is this not a thing?
Imho, the negative thing with the huge tanks is that the meta is geared at killing knights. So a superheavy generally dies too soon to do much good. It's definitely a thing, but it is not hardcore competitive.
My mistake, I wasn't talking about competitive play. I meant in a more FLGS setting. My store has a bunch of players that use Knights, with one that uses 3 Gallants and a Castellan.
Lord Clinto wrote: I don't recall seeing anyone taking/talking about taking a Baneblade or Shadowsword in a SHA detachment. Is this not a thing?
Imho, the negative thing with the huge tanks is that the meta is geared at killing knights. So a superheavy generally dies too soon to do much good. It's definitely a thing, but it is not hardcore competitive.
My mistake, I wasn't talking about competitive play. I meant in a more FLGS setting. My store has a bunch of players that use Knights, with one that uses 3 Gallants and a Castellan.
There have been many lists with 3x Leman Tank Commanders or 3x Vultures but none with Super Heavies...they're generally a huge points sink in an unfavourable meta game unfortunately
Just curious, how would you guys change Purestrain Genestealers to make them competitive? I feel like even if they got Cult Creeds and a point reduction, our other units would still outshine them, which is kinda sad when you'd think they'd be a premiere unit for Genestealer Cults.
Same question for the Ridgerunner — I absolutely love the model, but it's pretty bad compared to Jackals. I think giving it the ability to move+shoot without penalty would be a step in the right direction when combined with an Alphus's +1 to hit — but the weapon loadout is pretty subpar too. It seems like the heavy mining laser is the only decent option; the Heavy Mortar is garbage, and the missile launcher is, well, just a missile launcher for a 69pt unit. Adding a Clearance Incinerator would be interesting, but now you're up to 84 points for two heavy flamers...
I just don't see anything it could do better than Jackals.
Khorzain wrote: Just curious, how would you guys change Purestrain Genestealers to make them competitive? I feel like even if they got Cult Creeds and a point reduction, our other units would still outshine them, which is kinda sad when you'd think they'd be a premiere unit for Genestealer Cults.
Same question for the Ridgerunner — I absolutely love the model, but it's pretty bad compared to Jackals. I think giving it the ability to move+shoot without penalty would be a step in the right direction when combined with an Alphus's +1 to hit — but the weapon loadout is pretty subpar too. It seems like the heavy mining laser is the only decent option; the Heavy Mortar is garbage, and the missile launcher is, well, just a missile launcher for a 69pt unit. Adding a Clearance Incinerator would be interesting, but now you're up to 84 points for two heavy flamers...
I just don't see anything it could do better than Jackals.
In the case of Genestealers sadly they're completely out of place in the context of a GSC army.
Concerning the Ridgerunner, hefty price drops + Creeds might make it decent in a Neophyte heavy army with multiple Jackal Alphuses.
Buddy of mine finally got some and now his Infiltrators got me worried. I was think Deep Striking some Jackals 20 inches away in terrain, pop the start to make them untargettable if they aren’t the closest, them next turn run up and demo charge them.
Or perfect ambush some Cot4EE Acolytes and a Clamavus and pray that 3d6 with a +2 would get me there.
Buddy of mine finally got some and now his Infiltrators got me worried. I was think Deep Striking some Jackals 20 inches away in terrain, pop the start to make them untargettable if they aren’t the closest, them next turn run up and demo charge them.
Or perfect ambush some Cot4EE Acolytes and a Clamavus and pray that 3d6 with a +2 would get me there.
Neophytes if you're going for a onboard shooting presence...they're 110 pts for 5 Primaris wounds so unless spammed in multiples they aren't really a "counter" to us. Also they can't be everywhere on the board
Goliath Truck : C (A lightweight transport and a shooting platform designed for Neophytes. Its open topped rule at least gives our onboard Neophytes a way to benefit from Alphus +1 BS on designated targets. If they were 15/20 points cheaper we would be taking them in some lists I believe but now they're quite niche if you ask me)
are you sure about that? not sure if buff apply to passangers
Goliath Truck : C (A lightweight transport and a shooting platform designed for Neophytes. Its open topped rule at least gives our onboard Neophytes a way to benefit from Alphus +1 BS on designated targets. If they were 15/20 points cheaper we would be taking them in some lists I believe but now they're quite niche if you ask me)
are you sure about that? not sure if buff apply to passangers
It does thanks to Open Topped rule (although they do not benefit from Aura rerolls since they are not a modifier). It's literally a question that we asked at least 5 times since April
Goliath Truck : C (A lightweight transport and a shooting platform designed for Neophytes. Its open topped rule at least gives our onboard Neophytes a way to benefit from Alphus +1 BS on designated targets. If they were 15/20 points cheaper we would be taking them in some lists I believe but now they're quite niche if you ask me)
are you sure about that? not sure if buff apply to passangers
It does thanks to Open Topped rule (although they do not benefit from Aura rerolls since they are not a modifier). It's literally a question that we asked at least 5 times since April
So here's a question; especially in a smaller game, with less blips on the table - there is an opportunity to pull them all off the table during your first turn (They came from below and Return to the shadows). Would you do it? If so, under what conditions?
hangnailnz wrote: So here's a question; especially in a smaller game, with less blips on the table - there is an opportunity to pull them all off the table during your first turn (They came from below and Return to the shadows). Would you do it? If so, under what conditions?
Yes, for thematic reasons . Also in maelstorm stuff I would use stratagem to not show my objectives to the enemy.
hangnailnz wrote: So here's a question; especially in a smaller game, with less blips on the table - there is an opportunity to pull them all off the table during your first turn (They came from below and Return to the shadows). Would you do it? If so, under what conditions?
As long as the scenario doesn't have a rule that says you immediately loose if you have zero models on the table :-) I can definitely see it as a way to deny the opponent any use out of their first one or two shooting phases.
Main rules say that you lose if you have no models on the field any turn other than the first, so this is a legit tactic... Just curious about downsides. The first of course is that it is impossible to achieve any objectives in your T1 (unless there is one to have no models in your DZ... )
I originally made that mistake thinking it was like knives/chainswords but nope it’s 1 per every pick attack. Which gets nasty with Might from Beyond and the Biophagus giving them extra attacks.
hangnailnz wrote: So here's a question; especially in a smaller game, with less blips on the table - there is an opportunity to pull them all off the table during your first turn (They came from below and Return to the shadows). Would you do it? If so, under what conditions?
Its dangerous. It gives up all potential first turn shooting and concedes first Strike points. It also gives your opponent 2 movement phases to get anywhere he wants to go before you come in from reserve. I'd only do it if your opponent was doing something screwy and unbalanced like a Valiant and 2 Armigiers in a 1000 point game or Nothing but Wyverns, Basilisks, and Mortars.
I'd like some feedback on a Bike Heavy list that looks to restrict the movement of your opponents; Do you think running the Acolytes in small squads really hurts them? They probably aren't coming in until Turn 3 when I can clear out all the screens and I should have +1 Charge rerolling which is about 2/3 success rate on charges. I think the weakness of the list is a fast army that gets down the field and either spreads out to limit my deepstriking or gets on Ttp of my neophytes screening my tank commanders.
Also the sprue doesn't "Include multiple autoguns", it includes two, simply by virtue of there being TWO identical sprues.
I would wait until the box is actually out before saying this--we've had sprues missing from quite a few webstore breakdowns before.
So there are two different sprues in the Jackals box, and you can make all four bikes and the wolfquad with them. There aren't any identical sprues — it says there's only 89 components in the box, and that matches what they've shown us on the webstore.
But yeah, there's only a single autogun in the kit (along with only one power axe/bolt pistol), which lines up with the idea that only the Jackal leader can take those items.
-edit/clarifications
GW would NEVER give us 1 bit of a weapon the whole unit (or most of) can take. (cough cough rock saws cough cough)
drakerocket wrote: I'm having a little bit of a hard time envisioning what a solid army looks like, while avoiding the things it feels like we're punished for taking.
Heavy support slot is pretty slim without LRs, elite slot feels pretty over-packed. FA I guess will be bikes, though their exact role seems kind of scattered brained at this point?
Troops...seem solid~ish? But they're more or less deep striking IG but without orders and more expensive? That isn't bad, I guess, but no one is really running guard hordes exactly.
It feels like the better build is going to be a patrol or small brigade of kraken stealers (because ours are awful?), a supreme command of tank commanders are the real "base" of the army. And then I guess we build from there? Hard to see at the moment though outside of I guess DS'ing aberrants and character assassins we really bring to the fore.
Okay, I'm not going to write a list, but off the bat, my interpretations so far:
Staples:
Nexos seems really good. So many good stratagems, even more so if combined with Tyranids, this guy might make you back 6 CP over the course of the game - thats a battalions worth, probably want to take him for like 50 pts or whatever he is, and the other stuff is just a bonus.
Patriarch is really good. Fearless bubble, cost effective offense wise, character, and has the strongest Mental Onslaught cast in the game.
Magus is really good too, so are the familiars. I'd say you want at least one of all the above 3 units, almost without fail.
Acolytes are really good troops at 7pts. Definitely consider hand flamers too. Similar to Bloodletters for Khorne, and Tzaangors for TSons, I feel like these are our new bread and butter for offense. They also belong in the deepstrike category because they do that very well too, but I think they belong here as well.
Potential pieces:
Primus is a force multiplier. +1 to hit for the meat of the army is significant. May even be an auto-include like the above units, closest thing to it.
Kelermorph seems to be his biggest impact will be making your opponent screen and punishing bad play, but he's cheap enough that just doing this and even taking down a few infantry might still be very worthwhile.
Biophagus seems like hes really good, he's just so cheap and the impact may be significant especially if you tag multiple units over the course of the game.
Acolyte Iconward depends on what you're doing, but I'm pretty sure you can get Aberrants down to 3+ FNP with one near them combined with a strat which is just... brutal for how much damage they can put out. Combined with maybe Bladed Cog might be an absurdly hard to lift unit in the vein of Talos. This guy's pretty straight forward - "do I want to spend 40 pts to give an FNP bubble and does my list play in such a way to benefit from that?"
Cult Leman Russ are always good to add more staying power to GSC and just let you put some tanky bois on the table to push around the field and likely do consistent damage every single turn while the rest of their army is focused on your big threats. I think these are pretty good and should never be looked over too hastily.
Jackals, once we get the ruling ironed out on them it seems they have the potential to be quite good or bad. Just gonna put them here tentatively so they don't get looked over. At the end of the day I think they are cheap, durable and speedy enough to hold ground efficiently, and they'd be great in like Codex: Tau or something, but I think their role might just be a bit unnecessary in the GSC dex unless they can actually threaten to do something offensively.
I personally think the Locus is being slept on a little, he can eat a few wounds from a Patriach or something to keep him alive in a pinch, but above all I think for 40 pts, he's just got a good statline worth his cost, especially as a deepstriker should you need him and with the many bonus's available that he can just pick up by being there. However, I'm one of the people who thinks Lictors are really good now at 33 pts, and you can probably see the similarities here, so fair warning that I recognise this one might possibly[/b] be a more personal thing - but then again maybe not. I don't think he'll ever be a [i]bad inclusion tbh, especially as his cheap as chips price.
Deepstrikers:
Clamavus seem really good for any sort of deepstriking. Auto-take if you're doing any sort of thing like that, he's the new Primus.
Broodsurge Deliverance Neophytes are really good for units that don't need any more help to get into CC. 20 man strong ones + Might will actually hurt too when the stratagem goes off. Cult of the 4 Arm Emperor (C4E?) makes sure every unit will almost always get into combat since that will total to +2 to a charge that you can re-roll, but going up to S4 with Twisted Helix will make them hit harder and they still have +1 to charge.
Purestrains still gain more from Might cast than anything else, if you are willing to spend CP on the 3D6 charge strat, they get into combat really consistently out of deepstrike. They will also are the best units for multi-assaulting a big line of defenders, and will shred things when they double fight. They are no longer the go-to assault unit, but they are still the best target for targeted buffs and get more of them than any other unit. I'll probably consider taking a full unit in every list just because they put out the scariest threat bubble in the dex to non-tank units, and you can do a lot of trickery with deployment to always make sure they are in the right position to not get wrecked, and apply their damage.
Anointed Throng Abberants with Picks are really good (making an Abominant a good choice too if you take them), and you can buff the Abominant to absurd levels of fightiness with different relics and traits etc. These can probably work without deepstrike too as the units are small enough to fit in transports, so maybe they don't belong strictly in this category. Abberants are also great recievers of targeted buffs, and Twisted Helix or Might will really let them reach excellent levels of strength with their Power Picks. Hammers are good too. Take a Primus and an Abominant if you take any sort of real investment into these guys.
These are my picks for good units in the dex so far. I don't know how to evaluate the transports just yet, none of them are too bad really. I think most of the rest of the units are a bit of a whiff but thats okay, thats most the dex up there. I'll add my opinions about traits and strats soon, but this is where I stand on the units. However I will quickly add that I think the D3 CP Warlord trait is by far the best, and that every list should have at least one C4E detachment for probably that, but definitely the "Vect" equivalent.
Not sure if there is a big summary somewhere. This was on one of the first couple pages.
Caprican wrote: GW would NEVER give us 1 bit of a weapon the whole unit (or most of) can take. (cough cough rock saws cough cough)
Of course not, they do give you enough hand flamers though, which everyone acolyte can take. I find plenty of uses for blasting charges as well as rock saws, so it all works out.
Caprican wrote: GW would NEVER give us 1 bit of a weapon the whole unit (or most of) can take. (cough cough rock saws cough cough)
Of course not, they do give you enough hand flamers though, which everyone acolyte can take. I find plenty of uses for blasting charges as well as rock saws, so it all works out.
You mustve misunderstood me, I was being sarcastic, as I currently have 7 rocksaws and find myself needing at least 13 more for the lists I want to be playing. I have plenty of acolytes, just not rocksaws, and making me spend $40 a rocksaw is insane.
Tank Commander [12 PL, 172pts]: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter x3 36 PL 516pts.
Total: [120 PL, 10CP, 2,000pts]
I was wondering why you did not go for a Punisher (or two) for some heavy screen-clearing?
I have 3 unassembled Leman Russ' myself, and I am still not a 100% certain which weapons to give them, so I'm interested in hearing the reason why you went with straight Battle cannons.
Tank Commander [12 PL, 172pts]: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter x3 36 PL 516pts.
Total: [120 PL, 10CP, 2,000pts]
I was wondering why you did not go for a Punisher (or two) for some heavy screen-clearing?
I have 3 unassembled Leman Russ' myself, and I am still not a 100% certain which weapons to give them, so I'm interested in hearing the reason why you went with straight Battle cannons.
Punishers are great for screen clearing but if you only have one its going to be a priority target. If you have three punishers they are really good and can kill screens and then you can drop in your rock saws and that's what most do. My list is about getting downfield with a unit of bikes and charging first turn or using Drive by demolitions. By Blocking movement you give your Battlecannons an easier time of firing. The Battlecannons are backline shooting that give me a decent first turn shooting to pick up first strike points. I think you do one or the other and dont mix and match.
Drills and rock cutters might as well be extra saws, and if it’s that huge an issue a Goliath kit comes with a ton of them on its Rockgrinder sprue you can use.
Caprican wrote: So... do I have to scroll through all of this to find the tactica or is there another page?
Well Shuppet said he sold his army and was quitting 40k for good, so, I wouldn't hold my breath on the primer getting updated. Maybe Strat_N8 still feels like making one, hah.
Resipsa131 wrote: Punishers are great for screen clearing but if you only have one its going to be a priority target. If you have three punishers they are really good and can kill screens and then you can drop in your rock saws and that's what most do. My list is about getting downfield with a unit of bikes and charging first turn or using Drive by demolitions. By Blocking movement you give your Battlecannons an easier time of firing. The Battlecannons are backline shooting that give me a decent first turn shooting to pick up first strike points. I think you do one or the other and dont mix and match.
Okay, that makes sense.
I was pondering doing 2 Punishers and 1 plasma tank initially, because I was thinking that Rusted Claw demo-bikes, a big rock saw unit plus some scattered mining lasers should be sufficient anti-tank. In that respects I looked at the Leman Russ battle cannon as anti-tank, but maybe it's more of an all-round weapon.
Depends on where they are lurking. If they are deploying aggressively one can use Meticulous Uprising and Sensor Decoys to mitigate some of their deployment denial and then have a melee unit sweep them away. In the mid-field they are a bit more annoying to deal with, but I've generally found Autocannon fire clears them away quickly enough.
Vehicles in general are a good solution regardless of where the Infiltrators are deployed, but aren't everybody's proverbial cup of tea.
hangnailnz wrote: So here's a question; especially in a smaller game, with less blips on the table - there is an opportunity to pull them all off the table during your first turn (They came from below and Return to the shadows). Would you do it? If so, under what conditions?
I think it might be worthwhile if your opponent is running a relatively static/slow army and you can use it to deny them offense on the first turn. I would not consider doing it against a hyper-mobile army or a board control/horde army as either can capitalize on your reduced board presence and deny landing zones by spreading out.
Resipsa131 wrote:
Do you think running the Acolytes in small squads really hurts them? They probably aren't coming in until Turn 3 when I can clear out all the screens and I should have +1 Charge rerolling which is about 2/3 success rate on charges.
The main vulnerability for small squads is that they don't have as many ablative bodies to protect their special weapons, making them a bit less cost efficient than in larger units where you can loose more grunts before risking a special guy. Demolition Charges aren't bad in 5-man units since it increases the number than can be thrown and their one-use nature makes the model more or less expendable once the damage is done.
I assume you are using Rusted Claw?
Khorzain wrote:
Well Shuppet said he sold his army and was quitting 40k for good
Where did he say that? That is a bit shocking and a shame.
Khorzain wrote:
Maybe Strat_N8 still feels like making one, hah.
I do have one sitting on my computer actually. Needs to be updated to reflect the FAQ but I could have it ready in a couple days.
Badablack wrote: Drills and rock cutters might as well be extra saws, and if it’s that huge an issue a Goliath kit comes with a ton of them on its Rockgrinder sprue you can use.
How would you recommend kitbashing the saws from the goliath kit onto acolytes?
Sand down the sides of the end of a rock cutter, trim off the tips, and put saws on either side there. Can do the same thing with the seismic cannon guns. You can do similar stuff with other weapons but those are the 2 you’ll probably have spares of in your bits box since they’re kind of useless ruleswise.
Badablack wrote: Sand down the sides of the end of a rock cutter, trim off the tips, and put saws on either side there. Can do the same thing with the seismic cannon guns. You can do similar stuff with other weapons but those are the 2 you’ll probably have spares of in your bits box since they’re kind of useless ruleswise.
So here's a silly question; I have part of a neophyte sprue but no instructions or anything. Can anyone tell me what part 79 is? It looks like a high tech cereal bowl at this stage... It is right beside the webber.
hangnailnz wrote: So here's a silly question; I have part of a neophyte sprue but no instructions or anything. Can anyone tell me what part 79 is? It looks like a high tech cereal bowl at this stage... It is right beside the webber.
It is a pack of extra webber ammo. The part is designed to fit over one of the spherical grenades on the Neophyte's belt (instructions say leg set 04 or 07), hence the concave on one side.
Another question - the FAQ explains that if a vehicle deploys using Lying in Wait, occupants who disembark can't charge that round. I have been trying to work out how this situation could occur... Vehicles can't go underground, and LiW doesn't work in the first round, so this can't happen from blip reveals.
The only way I can see this happening is if you are playing a scenario that allows reserves reinforcements for units that dont have the rule natively. Am I missing something?
My other thought is that blip shenanigans look like even more fun when you go second, and you rearrange everything after someone pulls out all their favourite T1 movement tricks...
hangnailnz wrote: Another question - the FAQ explains that if a vehicle deploys using Lying in Wait, occupants who disembark can't charge that round. I have been trying to work out how this situation could occur... Vehicles can't go underground, and LiW doesn't work in the first round, so this can't happen from blip reveals.
The only way I can see this happening is if you are playing a scenario that allows reserves reinforcements for units that dont have the rule natively. Am I missing something?
But yeah, there's no way to set up a transport underground, so unless you're playing with custom rules then that couldn't happen.
Furthermore, units deep-strike from underground at the end of the movement phase — and those units count as being moved — so even if a transport could use Lying In Wait, it's passengers couldn't disembark until the next movement phase anyways, right?
On an unrelated note . . .
Who else is feeling really envious of all these new Vanguard Marine units getting Concealed Positions? hah
Who else is feeling really envious of all these new Vanguard Marine units getting Concealed Positions? hah
We have a lot more flexibility with Cult Ambush and the stratagems that manipulate it. Apart from maybe getting turn 1 charges again I don't think the new Vanguard infiltrate would do much for us. I will say though, it would be kinda neat if they suspended the matched play restriction on first turn deep strike for the next cycle and see how it plays with the new deep strike denial abilities in play.
Also as promised I posted the primer I had been working on for any who might be interested (link). I hope if nothing else it proves an enjoyable read.
WinterLantern wrote: So thinking of converting my renegades and heretics to genestealer cult, and running them as rusted claw. Would mass neophytes be good?
I'm using mine as Brood Brothers but honestly they could be played as either depending on the list, just so long as they all represent the same thing
Nitro Zeus wrote: I'm using mine as Brood Brothers but honestly they could be played as either depending on the list, just so long as they all represent the same thing
I'm.... not really sure of the difference between brood brothers and neophytes. Do they still get cult traits?
Nitro Zeus wrote: I'm using mine as Brood Brothers but honestly they could be played as either depending on the list, just so long as they all represent the same thing
I'm.... not really sure of the difference between brood brothers and neophytes. Do they still get cult traits?
There's two types, the first are several Brood Brother units that can be taken within a Genestealer Cult detachment — like infantry squads, Leman Russ's, Sentinels, etc — and the second is a Brood Brothers Detachment, which is essentially a separate Astra Militarum detachment without any Genestealer Cult units. I'd suggest a quick read over the rules for them here: http://wahapedia.ru/wh40k8ed/factions/genestealer-cults/#Brood-Brothers
tl;dr: All Brood Brothers units do not get cult traits, and are not affected by abilities that buff <cult> units.
Brood Brother Infantry Squads can still take a Heavy Weapons Team, and can be taken in units of 20 models rather than 10 if you want.They're only 1 point cheaper than Neophytes though, so unless you really need the points it's usually better to take Neophytes. Their one special use is that they can perform the Unquestioning Loyalty ability for Genestealer Cult characters regardless of what Cult Creed they have — while Neophytes and such can only perform Unquestioning Loyalty for characters within the same Cult — so if you're bringing several detachments with different Creeds then Brood Brothers can be used as universal bodyguards for all your characters. The Patriarch has a 6" morale-immunity aura that affects Brood Brothers units, although they also have a built-in morale re-roll if you want to spend 5 points on a Cult Voxcaster for the unit — both useful if you're taking big blobs of 20 to soak up wounds.
Just on the topic of Brood Brothers - how do you guys feel about Brood Brother mortar teams? They seem worth it to me, especially since screen clear/thinning is so useful for us, but just looking for other opinions.
Nitro Zeus wrote: Just on the topic of Brood Brothers - how do you guys feel about Brood Brother mortar teams? They seem worth it to me, especially since screen clear/thinning is so useful for us, but just looking for other opinions.
I bring them in most every list. They are not quite as good as the AM equivalent, but they do clear some screens and hold backfield space.
Nitro Zeus wrote: Just on the topic of Brood Brothers - how do you guys feel about Brood Brother mortar teams? They seem worth it to me, especially since screen clear/thinning is so useful for us, but just looking for other opinions.
I bring them in most every list. They are not quite as good as the AM equivalent, but they do clear some screens and hold backfield space.
Yeah. I know they are on paper slightly less than the AM ones, but I'm also of the opinion that the strength of a unit depends on how well it fills a role for that particular army. AM ones might be better, but I suspect clearing out screens like that does more for us than it does for them, a point or two more and no regiment, I still suspect our Mortars are even better for us than theirs are for them.
KurtAngle2 wrote: Just to let you know, Marines can now deepstrike turn 1. They outright removed it for us to give it to marines
To be fair, if I’m reading the same rumors they have to pay a pretty penny for the ability (drop pods aren’t cheap and have negligible effect post drop). GSC should be one of the better off armies against pods since we can alter our deployment to minimize a pod alpha or spread out to deny landing zones (Jackals, Ridgerunners, and Sentinels are all good for this).
Hi Guys! I'm coming back playing GSC after a long period with my Black Legion. I have 2 major issue:
1st I can't decide if it's better to play bladed cog or rusted claw:RC seems more protective all around but there's a lot of Ap2 now so maybe it's better the BC, also their WL is really useful to shoot against an important screen with flamers and granades, what is your experience so far?
2nd how do you deal with Necrons, Mecanicus and Ultramarine? I feel like this codex suffers counters too much: one time 6 Kastellan Robots annihilated almost all my army in a single turn,while I was forced to charge screens; Necrons and especially Ultramarines can spam ap2 shots and fall back and shoot, completely destroying our units in a single turn
Overall I think that without a single powerful shooting unit we cannot destroy that vehicle which will be screened, infantry on top of ruins which is unchargable, and we are force to kill transport vehicles in CC having to endure the assault unit that comes out of it. The GSC units are powerful overall but we suffers the basic mechanics of the game. Am I wrong? Did I miss something?
Rusted claw def took a hit, I wouldn’t take them unless I planned on using Demo Charge Jackals.
I’ve been running 3 Battalions, TH, Cot4AE, and RC. Helix gets abberents, cult gets acolytes, claw gets Jackals and neophytes.
I use one Squad of Acolytes as a Flamer bomb to clear screens, then everyone else does their thing.
I’ve yet to play anyone using them, but I am concerned about Omniscramblers. I feel my list is gonna have to eventually change to have some turn one punch that can deal with them, invictor suits I’m also not super worried about because we can manipulate our deployment enough to feed them Brood Bros and slow them down.
We have one necron guy but I never get to play him because of how our work schedules are.
Badablack wrote: Drills and rock cutters might as well be extra saws, and if it’s that huge an issue a Goliath kit comes with a ton of them on its Rockgrinder sprue you can use.
How would you recommend kitbashing the saws from the goliath kit onto acolytes?
Back when my guard could take plasma guns for 7pts on BS3 models I wanted to take 4 scion command squads with plasma guns. Of course you only got one gun with a box of scions and I wanted a ton of them. I looked at GWsPGs but they were just the gun - no arms obviously. I bought the starter kit from smooth-on and made up a mold of the gun+arm from a scion and popped out plasma guns to my hearts content. Then the point cost doubled, you could only take 3 units and they had to be babysat by a prime so that didn't last very long. Still I have more than enough material to make additional weapons like lots of mining lasers for my neophytes that I have plans for
Okay I'll keep with bladed cog then thank you! I tend to play just one faction for narrative reasons.
Regarding the flamerbomb, do you mix them with grenades? I think it's better to do it, since it helps you against any target, but I see a lot of people run only flamers. Also, do you DS the rest together with them, or do you keep the CC hitters for the third round?
DarklyDreaming wrote: Hi Guys! I'm coming back playing GSC after a long period with my Black Legion. I have 2 major issue:
1st I can't decide if it's better to play bladed cog or rusted claw:RC seems more protective all around but there's a lot of Ap2 now so maybe it's better the BC, also their WL is really useful to shoot against an important screen with flamers and granades, what is your experience so far?
2nd how do you deal with Necrons, Mecanicus and Ultramarine? I feel like this codex suffers counters too much: one time 6 Kastellan Robots annihilated almost all my army in a single turn,while I was forced to charge screens; Necrons and especially Ultramarines can spam ap2 shots and fall back and shoot, completely destroying our units in a single turn
Overall I think that without a single powerful shooting unit we cannot destroy that vehicle which will be screened, infantry on top of ruins which is unchargable, and we are force to kill transport vehicles in CC having to endure the assault unit that comes out of it. The GSC units are powerful overall but we suffers the basic mechanics of the game. Am I wrong? Did I miss something?
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Regarding the flamerbomb, do you mix them with grenades? I think it's better to do it, since it helps you against any target, but I see a lot of people run only flamers. Also, do you DS the rest together with them, or do you keep the CC hitters for the third round?
Welcome back to the cult!
1 The best thing with Bladed Cog is how they do not suffer movement penalties for heavy weapons. I run a detachment of Bladed Cog. Patriarch with the WL trait Single Minded Obsession. Jackal Alphus. 5 units of Neophytes with Mining Lasers. (this is a bit over 600p) They are a good insurance against flyers that my melee units cannot charge. Rusted Claw is better in defense imho, but that is less important. This is a good shooty gang that can handle a lot of the problems you mention.
2 I try to make sure my opponent has nothing valuable to shoot at turn one, and turn two if I am going second (which I like to do in scenarios where victory points are calculated at end of battle round). If they have screened properly I spend turn two killing off the screens with the bladed cog neophytes mentioned above, hand flamer acolytes, Brood brother mortar teams, or even bikers with 5x demo charges. Same for unchargeable units in ruins. Then turn three I charge with my rock saw acolytes and/or aberrants. Sometimes I place a unit of aberrants out of harms way and use Return to Shadows turn three so I can perfect ambush them turn four.
About transports. Best trick is to surround them with your models (Stay about 0.9" away from the transport with the closest models) and leave a small space on one side (3"x2" will fit one 25mm base) so a few of the transported models can get out and survive. Once they are out, you consolidate into that unit. If it is properly surrounded, it cannot fall back next turn so you cannot be shot at. Then you kill that unit in your opponents fight phase and in your turn you are free to move on. If the unit being transported is very hard to kill, you can surround the vehicle completely and have all the transported models die when they cannot be deployed.
I like my flamer bomb with only flamers. If they are attacking guardsmen each handflamer will kill 1,17 guardsmen and each demo charge will kill 1,46 guardsmen. Or each handflamer will kill 0,20 primaris marines and each demo charge will kill a bit less than 1 primaris marine. But since there are so many handflamers they will kill 7,8 primaris marines. And it is quite rare that they have the opportunity to target more than one unit. (I agree that sometimes you will fight someone with only tanks/knights/etc and no infantry to attack. Then the demo charges can be useful)
If you want to learn how to make it harder for enemies to fall back from assault, you should learn how to lock units in combat through "pinning", "three-point", "surround" or "hug". Look at this video from D6 Evolution. They explain it very well. (And their other videos are great too)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUn3q8vFCCw
Thank you for the answer! So I'll keep with Bladed Cog. I knew all the tactics you mentioned, but I have not much practical experience with it, glad to see that all works as it should, I'll try and let you know!
Araablane wrote: Does anyone know if theres a video about John Lennons game in Super Secret GT or any interviews on how he played it.
Really like the list.
He has a podcast and touches on it in episode 3. https://youtu.be/KTd1I5FP2Q0. Later he took GSC to nova and did well also, talks a bit about that on best in factions nova Roundup episode.
Araablane wrote: Does anyone know if theres a video about John Lennons game in Super Secret GT or any interviews on how he played it.
Really like the list.
Similar list or no, the faction is so deep that it’s always good to listen to top players describe what they personally do. I just found out Nick Nanavati only holds one of his Abberant squads in reserve every single game and plays grounded with the other one. Just listening never hurts
Nitro Zeus wrote: Similar list or no, the faction is so deep that it’s always good to listen to top players describe what they personally do. I just found out Nick Nanavati only holds one of his Abberant squads in reserve every single game and plays grounded with the other one. Just listening never hurts
I agree and i'm not saying he shouldn't look at how people play their lists, my point is that the list is not special and any advise on playing a double Aberrant list should be applicable.
Yes there are many ways to play the same GSC list because its such a dynamic army and that's why I love playing it.
I think I've seen Nick play with both squads in reserve in the past and 1 squad on the table more recently, I assume its an adaptation to opponents learning to spread out on the board more to push back deepstrikes, which you can capitalise on with a unit on the table, if he comes to close you get to charge. And Aberrants are survivable enough to take some pot shots, which Acolytes can't.
I think I've seen Nick play with both squads in reserve in the past and 1 squad on the table more recently, I assume its an adaptation to opponents learning to spread out on the board more to push back deepstrikes, which you can capitalise on with a unit on the table, if he comes to close you get to charge. And Aberrants are survivable enough to take some pot shots, which Acolytes can't.
You partially touched on one of his partial reasons for doing, but overall that's not really it, I'd explain more, but he talks about it on an episode locked behind the (very cheap) subscription to his Patreon and I don't feel right just sharing that info out in public as a result. But it's another good example of why listening to top players is a great way to build a knowledge bank! You don't have to do it their way but it's always good to see their thinking on a topic, and it's not always something that may have occurred to you as the obvious reason for a decision
Not trying to be pedantic, I genuinely want to know in case it comes up in one of my games.
. Also in maelstorm stuff I would use stratagem to not show my objectives to the enemy.
