- A lot of players wrote in this topic: "You need 'Cult of the four armed emperor' because you need +1 charge". I would always pick rusted claw because the +1 save is just too good. A smart opponent knows how to bubble wrap his army and the broodsurge acolyte combo cannot assault all the juicy stuff and need to take a hit at some time.
Then you want to charge the bubble wrap - or if that seems like a bad idea, just don't attempt it that turn. Whatever the case, you need to be able to have some sort of consistency with charging out of DS. 60 Acolytes deploying within 9" of your opponents entire force, with no bonus to charge, is just basically throwing away points, +1 to save isn't changing that. Plus haven't you invested mortars into like 7 different squads to help deal with the screens? This does not seem like a wise call at all.
Against most armies I cannot afford to wait but if that's possible then I would. I would start shooting with mortars, possibly summon shooty units and even bring in the hand flamers with lying in wait second turn to make sure that the enemy got almost no decent cheap screen left turn 3. Then I would drop. But no enemy player is going to line up all his juicy units even without cheap screens. With perfect ambush it's not that hard to get something in close combat and with 3/4 units with + 1 charge, reroll charge and one reroll d6 I get at least another unit in close combat. Most times that's all you need because having more units in close combat with the same enemy unit is overkill. But next turn you need to take that incoming fire.
Ordana wrote:Its about consistency yeah.
an 8" re-rolling charge is ~66% chance
a 7" re-rolling charge is ~82% chance
Failing charges costs you games, and in those situations a 4+ instead of a 5+ is, imo, unlikely to save you.
You indeed often can't hit the juicy stuff turn 2 but that's why most list use 2 punches.
Turn 2 some stuff comes down to charge and clear screens.
T3 the rest comes to use the space created the previous turn.
Don't forget the single reroll d6.
Normally I would agree, but I played a few games and I almost always run into the situation that having more units in close combat with the same enemy unit at the front, doesn't help. For example; first turn I remove eldaeri rangers bubble wrap with mortars but then next turn he put's two wave serpents in the front to push back my deep strike zone. My rock saw unit with perfect ambush in combination with psychic powers and at least one brood surge acolyte unit could remove them easily. But there is no way to reach the scatter laser bikes behind them. I need to make that acolyte blob as tough as possible and to make sure that the flank where I drop is mine. If I drop turn 2 then I would almost always keep one unit in reserve for next turn perfect ambush.
If you can't afford to wait a turn that's even more reason why you need consistent charges. Get them into combat with SOMETHING, it doesn't have to be a big target.
I think shogun has a point, but many players are not experts at bubblewrapping or simply do not have a list which efficiently bubblewrap.
It is why nothing can currently replace triple vulture for clearing enemy zone for that sweet turn 2 charge.
Massive numbers of rusted claw acolytes/neophytes/aberrants (for the abs, especially if their toughness gets buffed by biophagus) has much more staying power than you'd expect.
The problem with that is if you want rock saws on acolytes, or lasers with neophytes. Then the cost of the unit is too high when compared to its staying power.
In any case, agressors or such will make short work out of them, so you need to adapt to you opponent's army, unless like me you are prepping for a team tournament and (hopefully) won't be matched against armies (and on the wrong tables with the wrong terrain) with agressors standing on the top level of a ruin
He's right about players screening. He's wrong about the answer.
Good players will screen well. The answer to that isn't "ah well, screw it, may as well deepstrike my glass cannons in and go for the charge the turn after", as even with +1 to save they are just going to get chewed UP. The answer is clearing out the screens and charging straight out of deepstrike on the same turn, or taking units that will happily charge into screens and trade out for board presence.
addnid wrote:I think shogun has a point, but many players are not experts at bubblewrapping or simply do not have a list which efficiently bubblewrap.
I tend to play at tournaments against decent players. If the know what to expect from my army then the know how to keep my army away from their juicy units. You don't need cheap bubblewrap for that. I played a Aeldari army that used his wave serpents to block my assault. Yes, he sacrificed 2 wave serpents but still won because he knew that the next turn he would shoot the crap out of me.
addnid wrote:In any case, agressors or such will make short work out of them, so you need to adapt to you opponent's army, unless like me you are prepping for a team tournament and (hopefully) won't be matched against armies (and on the wrong tables with the wrong terrain) with agressors standing on the top level of a ruin
Not really worried about agressors. Never seen a competitive army with agressors for good reason.
SHUPPET wrote:He's right about players screening. He's wrong about the answer.
Good players will screen well. The answer to that isn't "ah well, screw it, may as well deepstrike my glass cannons in and go for the charge the turn after", as even with +1 to save they are just going to get chewed UP. The answer is clearing out the screens and charging straight out of deepstrike on the same turn, or taking units that will happily charge into screens and trade out for board presence.
It's not that I won't charge the screen with everything I got OR try to take it down as much as I can. The point is that any smart opponent can keep my acolytes away with bubble wrap and then it doesn't matter how many units get in close combat with that screen. I could bring in 20 neophytes with heavy stubbers and webbers using perfect ambush to try to remove 10 astra M infantry bubble wrap, but even that is not a solid guaranty. If 3 guardsmen survive then I can still not deep strike close enough to reach the units behind.
Example:
I played against the 3 knight + 3 custodes jetbike captains + astra M battalion with platoon commander + primaris psyker and 3 infantry units.
The get first turn. Moving mid-field and shooting a bit at my brood brother units. I get first turn and put my 3 heavy units (blieps) into reserves. My mortars kill one infantry unit.
Enemy player second turn moves mid field and castle-up. Two Infantry squads use move move move to get in position and one gets the psychic barrier upgrade (psychic power) and the other gets the stratagem upgrade (go to ground or something...?).
Infantry squads make a nice cirkel around, one close combat knight + two shooty knights in the middle and 3 jetbike captains behind them. Psyker + captains stay close-by for possible deny the witch (onslaught).
I could wait another turn but then my opponent got enough reach to kill my backfield units and still make a nice castle for my incoming acolytes. Also he then got the opportunity to keep scoring objectives for 3 whole turns and that doesn't really help my end result in a tournament.
You drop 1 acolyte squad and charge on the point between 2 guard units, attack and kill one unit, hostage the other unit if able. If you have a unit of 20 acolytes you could also just kill both units.
Next turn he doesn't have enough screen anymore so you get to eat the juicy bits with your remaining acolyte units charging from deepstrike.
A +1 save isn't going to help that first unit survive anyway because he will throw everything into killing it.
I'm not afraid of someone screening with 3 guard units. The one with 6 is more dangerous because you can't get rid of enough of them on turn 2 to stop them from plugging the gap back up.
This is why I run a Tyranid detachment. Devourer Termagants are expensive, but they are really good at clearing screens. The combination of 18" range, the ability to double tap, and the unit itself being durable enough to require focusing on means you can get rid of just about any screen in the game turn 2.
Ordana wrote: Next turn he doesn't have enough screen anymore so you get to eat the juicy bits with your remaining acolyte units charging from deepstrike.
Then its better to summon at turn 1, 20 neophytes with seismic cannons/heavy stubbers + webbers and start shooting at the infantry in combination with the backfield mortars.
But even without the infantry screen I don't like the fact that most smart players know how to deal with deep strike assault units, and I always want to go in hard but then I often realise I should have just played the mission. Custodes jetbike captain could just use his stratagem assault and lock two of my units in close combat before I charge myself. And even with the +1 charge I often just fail at reaching the enemy unit with my whole acolyte unit. Max 12 could swing at a custodes captain and that's not enough to kill it.
Rusted claw gives me the option to just dig in deep on the objectives and create the situation that I got to many models for the enemy to handle.
babelfish wrote:This is why I run a Tyranid detachment. Devourer Termagants are expensive, but they are really good at clearing screens. The combination of 18" range, the ability to double tap, and the unit itself being durable enough to require focusing on means you can get rid of just about any screen in the game turn 2.
I got one problem with that; My GSC need a lot of Command Points and for that I need at least 3 battalions. If I pick a Tyranid battalion then I need 2 neurothropes and 3 troop choices. Let's say I pick 10 gaunts + 10 gaunts + 30 gaunts with 20 devourers = 460 points total. That is to much for me. Rather pick a brood brother battalion (-2 CP) with tempestus deep strike character and drop in 2x 20 infantry squad brood brothers and use first rank second rank fire on both.
Ordana wrote: Next turn he doesn't have enough screen anymore so you get to eat the juicy bits with your remaining acolyte units charging from deepstrike.
Then its better to summon at turn 1, 20 neophytes with seismic cannons/heavy stubbers + webbers and start shooting at the infantry in combination with the backfield mortars.
But even without the infantry screen I don't like the fact that most smart players know how to deal with deep strike assault units, and I always want to go in hard but then I often realise I should have just played the mission. Custodes jetbike captain could just use his stratagem assault and lock two of my units in close combat before I charge myself. And even with the +1 charge I often just fail at reaching the enemy unit with my whole acolyte unit. Max 12 could swing at a custodes captain and that's not enough to kill it.
Rusted claw gives me the option to just dig in deep on the objectives and create the situation that I got to many models for the enemy to handle.
I feel like this is a valid way to run a list, but you may run into the problem that horde orc and horde 'gant (which should really be my screenname instead) players have, which is running out of time in tournament games. I may have missed it above, but what is your general plan for Imperial superheavies?
babelfish wrote:This is why I run a Tyranid detachment. Devourer Termagants are expensive, but they are really good at clearing screens. The combination of 18" range, the ability to double tap, and the unit itself being durable enough to require focusing on means you can get rid of just about any screen in the game turn 2.
I got one problem with that; My GSC need a lot of Command Points and for that I need at least 3 battalions. If I pick a Tyranid battalion then I need 2 neurothropes and 3 troop choices. Let's say I pick 10 gaunts + 10 gaunts + 30 gaunts with 20 devourers = 460 points total. That is to much for me. Rather pick a brood brother battalion (-2 CP) with tempestus deep strike character and drop in 2x 20 infantry squad brood brothers and use first rank second rank fire on both.
40x first rank second rank fire isn't going to hit as hard as 30x devourers doubletapping, but the cost savings may be worth the trade off, particularly CP wise. My opinion is that it is going to depend on your list and approach to the game, so I'm happy to agree that the brood brother battalion could be superior for you.
I put a detailed discussion of the cost and potential builds for the dakkagaunt drop in the spoiler, because I like it a lot and want you to see its virtues, but don't want do detract from the general point that there are multiple potential solutions to the screen removal problem.
Spoiler:
The ideal Tyranid battalion for this is going to be 2 Neurothropes, 2 3x Ripper squads, 20-30 gants all with devourers, and 3 Raveners. The Ripper units can DS for objective grabbing, or just sit behind LOS blocking terrain. They are a very low profile squad, so having them sit behind a wall on a backfield objective is perfectly viable. The Raveners are most effective with some cheap upgrades (deathspitters, rending claws-gives them some shooting when they land and a decent CC profile if they get ignored and get to charge). You need to send one Neurothrope with the 'gaunts, because of the to hit penalty for being out of synapse, but the other one can deploy on the table, safely being a multi-wound character with a 3++. You can hover him in the general direction of the other army, look for chances to smite or cast The Horror.
Min cost for the battalion is 475 (20x 'gants, naked Raveners). 2 CP for the drop, 2 CP to double tap the 'gaunts. 60 * 1/2 * 2/3 + 60 * 1/2 * 1/6 *2/3 = 23 wounds vs T3, double tap is 46; 60 * 1/2 * 1/2 + 60 * 1/2 * 1/6 *1/2 = 17.5 wounds vs T4, double tap for 35.
Max cost is 576 (30x 'gants, guns and rending on the Raveners). 2 CP drop, 2 CP double tap 'gaunts. 90 * 1/2 * 2/3 + 90 * 1/2 * 1/6 *2/3 = 35 wounds vs T3, double tap is 70; 90 * 1/2 * 1/2 + 90 * 1/2 * 1/6 *1/2 = 26.25 wounds vs T4, double tap for 52.5.
The min unit gives you: T3 6+, 19 unsaved wounds per tap; T3 5+, 15 unsaved; T4 6+, 14.5 unsaved; T4 5+, 11.6 unsaved; T4 3+, 5.8 unsaved.
The max unit gives you: T3 6+, 29 unsaved wounds per tap; T3 5+, 23 unsaved; T4 6+, 21.8 unsaved; T4 5+, 17.5 unsaved; T4 3+, 8.75 unsaved.
The large dakkagant unit gives you the ability to effectively cripple two units of the common infantry targets ('gaunts, guardsmen, orcs, genestealers, marines) the turn they drop, and require substantial anti-infantry fire to get rid off, which is why I personally like them so much. They have a long enough range that even with screening, they often get to hit two separate targets the turn they land. They will delete screens and put large dents in horde armies, while being reasonably durable (fearless from the Neurothrope and always in cover due to the hive fleet trait), and scoring.
babelfish wrote: I feel like this is a valid way to run a list, but you may run into the problem that horde orc and horde 'gant (which should really be my screenname instead) players have, which is running out of time in tournament games. I may have missed it above, but what is your general plan for Imperial superheavies?
Not really worried about 'gaunt horde', maybe more worried about deathgaurd/nurgle daemons horde. Ork horde can be funny, but I think my cult ambush gives me the advantage against orks. Don't like to face 10+15 loota's (lootabomb) because even against hordes the really hurt.I could block 1 stratagem at the right time and remove the grots(shield) with my handflamers and start shooting with mortars but I also need to deal with the ork boyz.
Regarding the tournament time issue; tournaments I play allow you to use a chess clock if you want. If I stay hidden the first two turns I probably got no problem getting to turn 4/5. Most opponents take up more time so I need that chess clock to make sure I get my fair share of playtime. Also need to figure out at what moment do I focus primarily on the objectives and simply ignore my opponent units.
Against imperial superheavies:
I got Mental onslaught with +3 leadership on my patriarch (warlord trait + clamavus + broodsurge vial relic),
one acolyte unit with 8 rock saws,
mind control can be useful,
3 patriarch in combination with mass hypnosis. If I can assault with all three than it hurts,
I could also summon 10 acolytes with 4 rock saws first turn, return to the shadows second turn, and perfect ambush third turn, but thats rather expensive.
babelfish wrote:This is why I run a Tyranid detachment. Devourer Termagants are expensive, but they are really good at clearing screens. The combination of 18" range, the ability to double tap, and the unit itself being durable enough to require focusing on means you can get rid of just about any screen in the game turn 2.
40x first rank second rank fire isn't going to hit as hard as 30x devourers doubletapping, but the cost savings may be worth the trade off, particularly CP wise. My opinion is that it is going to depend on your list and approach to the game, so I'm happy to agree that the brood brother battalion could be superior for you.
I put a detailed discussion of the cost and potential builds for the dakkagaunt drop in the spoiler, because I like it a lot and want you to see its virtues, but don't want do detract from the general point that there are multiple potential solutions to the screen removal problem.
Spoiler:
The ideal Tyranid battalion for this is going to be 2 Neurothropes, 2 3x Ripper squads, 20-30 gants all with devourers, and 3 Raveners. The Ripper units can DS for objective grabbing, or just sit behind LOS blocking terrain. They are a very low profile squad, so having them sit behind a wall on a backfield objective is perfectly viable. The Raveners are most effective with some cheap upgrades (deathspitters, rending claws-gives them some shooting when they land and a decent CC profile if they get ignored and get to charge). You need to send one Neurothrope with the 'gaunts, because of the to hit penalty for being out of synapse, but the other one can deploy on the table, safely being a multi-wound character with a 3++. You can hover him in the general direction of the other army, look for chances to smite or cast The Horror.
Min cost for the battalion is 475 (20x 'gants, naked Raveners). 2 CP for the drop, 2 CP to double tap the 'gaunts. 60 * 1/2 * 2/3 + 60 * 1/2 * 1/6 *2/3 = 23 wounds vs T3, double tap is 46; 60 * 1/2 * 1/2 + 60 * 1/2 * 1/6 *1/2 = 17.5 wounds vs T4, double tap for 35.
Max cost is 576 (30x 'gants, guns and rending on the Raveners). 2 CP drop, 2 CP double tap 'gaunts. 90 * 1/2 * 2/3 + 90 * 1/2 * 1/6 *2/3 = 35 wounds vs T3, double tap is 70; 90 * 1/2 * 1/2 + 90 * 1/2 * 1/6 *1/2 = 26.25 wounds vs T4, double tap for 52.5.
The min unit gives you: T3 6+, 19 unsaved wounds per tap; T3 5+, 15 unsaved; T4 6+, 14.5 unsaved; T4 5+, 11.6 unsaved; T4 3+, 5.8 unsaved.
The max unit gives you: T3 6+, 29 unsaved wounds per tap; T3 5+, 23 unsaved; T4 6+, 21.8 unsaved; T4 5+, 17.5 unsaved; T4 3+, 8.75 unsaved.
The large dakkagant unit gives you the ability to effectively cripple two units of the common infantry targets ('gaunts, guardsmen, orcs, genestealers, marines) the turn they drop, and require substantial anti-infantry fire to get rid off, which is why I personally like them so much. They have a long enough range that even with screening, they often get to hit two separate targets the turn they land. They will delete screens and put large dents in horde armies, while being reasonably durable (fearless from the Neurothrope and always in cover due to the hive fleet trait), and scoring.
I do get that its got a nice anti infantry damage output but I must put 50% units/points on the table and if I'am gonna put gaunts in deepstrike with raveners than I need more GSC on the table. An acolyte with hand flamer is 8 points (just as much as a devourer gaunt) and also removes infantry units like a boss. Either the enemy got 'some' infantry units that he could use as a screen or it's a horde army and then I would just fight it out with my acolytes.
Also could be fun: Neurothrope + 3 mawlocs (Ymgarl) allies. Might give this a try for funsies.
I am not as hardcore as you guys, but I have been having a lot of success with mechanized cult in Bladed Cog. Instead of worrying about clearing the screens and getting deep strike bonuses, I just ambush all my neophytes and put all my melee threats in trucks that advance slowly up the board while pelting the enemy with autocannon/stubber fire. Bladed Cog lets me aggressively use squads of neos with heavy weapons without getting a minus to hit, which is nice, and by using neos instead of acolytes as my ambushers, I can pretty much always get them in range to do some screen clearing so the trucks can get close enough to disgorge their contents.
Like I said, I am not a tournament player, but this list has been working pretty well for me so far, and it is also pretty fast to play since you aren't worrying about moving tons of infantry around every turn. The wall of trucks, plus other cheap vehicles like Sentinels and/or Ridgerunners, provides a reasonably tough to remove target on the opponents' first couple turn, and wastes a lot of their long range anti-infantry firepower shooting at T6 targets.
The Abominant in Bladed Cog with the Cog relic that gives him a 3++ is pretty sick, too. He is incredibly hard to kill with that relic plus Bestial Vigor and his regeneration ability. I just put him in a truck with a few Pick Aberrants and send them straight into my opponents' lines.
Edit: I should also mention that I do, in fact, have one large unit of Acolytes with rock saws that I hold back in ambush, and sometimes a 10 man unit of Metamorphs with talons and hand flamers that I lying in wait into place. I wait to drop those guys - sometimes until turn 3 - to make sure that they can safely hit a high value target. So I don't just ambush neos and nothing else.
After reading someone else's conversation the other night, I just wanted to talk about Pauper Princes for a second. I think they are being slept on, and could potentially be pretty powerful. I think it's understandable that their potential may be slept on however, as they might be pretty rigid in what works well for them unlike stuff like Rusted Claw that pretty much benefits everything, and at first glance at the Cult it's not as obvious which pieces bring it together. I think they also want to play with a lot of bodies, and many people don't have the model count (I don't myself but considering building into it).
But to start with, let's discuss what the army encourages. The stratagem Vengeance of the Martyrs is restrictive, but powerful - ARMY WIDE +1 to hit IN BOTH MELEE AND SHOOTING, on any unit that kills a character, for THE REST OF THE GAME, and for ONE SINGLE CP. This stratagem encourages 2 things - an entirely Pauper Prince army (or at the very least, a large majority) whom all benefit from the strat, and suicide character bombs to trigger it. This strat seems very potent in a meta dominated by 600-700 centrepiece units, one of whom's strength is sniping characters.
Let's talk about one of the other things this army has that is so amazing - the Warlord trait, Beloved Grandsire. As long as you have bodies near him to take the blows, a character can shrug of all wounds, INCLUDING MORTALS, on a 2+. This is amazing on a melee beatstick, and GSC currently has one of the best (and probably undercosted) melee jackhammers in the game, the Patriarch. If supported well you should be able to throw him at literally everything and still keep him around all game. 5++ invul means he has the equivalent of 54 WOUNDS minimum if you can keep feeding him loyal bodies, nevermind the 4+ regular save against chaff attacks, the FNP from the Acolyte buffing him, and the Character rule all contributing to keeping him around longer. He will just tear up CC every single round of CC, all the while Smiting and Mighting every single turn. As for an Abominant with this trait? Seems like it would quite possibly the hardest CC model to kill in the entire game. This strength obviously encourages the use of many cheap bodies, most likely Neophytes.
Of course, the cult creed itself isn't too bad either, with re-rolls to attacks pretty much everytime it counts.
Doubles up on some buffs, but they are cheap ones that come with other benefits and with 130 Neophytes I think that multiple bubbles will be important.
After triggering the strat, each Neophyte squad is hitting a Knight on 2+ with each mining Laser. any in range of the Kelermorph is re-rolling those 1's as well. But hell you may as well use the strat on any and everything to kill a character, the CP for it is definitely there. We've dicussed the benefits of multiple Neophytes with Mining Lasers in here before, Red Corsair give a pretty good explanation of why it's good, and Nick Rose just went undefeated over the weekend with a Rusted Cog list doing just this. These squads here are all doing double duty on top of that here, with all the extra bodies contributing to keeping your Patriarch alive all game. Then of course, with a Primus for +1 to hit in combat and natural re-rolls after charging, +1S from the Iconward banner, Neophytes can actually cut things up, especially if that unit had the AUDACITY earlier to kill a suicide Kelermorph or something.
Speaking of Kelermorph, his character sniping synergises with with the triple Jackals, which I think will let his character sniping go even further.
Anointed Throng Abominant is a nice suicide beatstick, and an Aberrant bomb just cause why not, since you already have an Abominant and bunch of stuff they benefit from in the list, they may be able to solve problems that the rest of the list might bounce off, and I think they are the ideal CC "bomb" unit in a board so clogged, you probably have a harder time finding room to charge with 20 Acolytes for example. Also they make a nice CP sink since this style of play inevitably uses tons of it, and isn't too hungry on it either.
List is just an example of what Pauper Princes might do well, and might do with some tweaking. More suicide characters may be necessary, I'd like to playtest. The oft looked-over Locus seems to synergise well here, he's actually somewhat pretty points efficient as a suicide charge unit just on his own, his bodyguard rules synergises well with the theme of keeping your Patriarch alive, he is cheap enough to sacrifice against pretty much anything, and with aggressive character play he can pretty much self-wound, making him easily brought down when you WANT him to die. Maybe 3 Alphus isn't necessary, and a Magus might be nice in here especially for Brood Coven since Biomorph Adaptation is left on the table for the Primus to pick up, and potentially Mortars to give the Neophytes more legs - though the points may be better just spent on more Neophytes. But that's just thoughts.
Basically, I think Pauper Princes has real potential as a creed, and that Patriarch/Abominant warlord will absolutely BULLY the table if played right.
Interesting idea. I feel like, if your opponent knows what's up though, he can just play around it and use his Castellan or whatever to shoot at your squads instead of the characters. And it won't be as exciting of a stratagem against armies that just shoot down our easy-to-kill characters with ordinary troops. Getting +1 to hit against a unit of Eliminators or Intercessors would be pretty meh, even only at 1 CP.
I also question which character you are planning on using for your suicide bomb. If it's the Kellermorph, after all, you can't count on his reroll 1s aura to boost your shots.
Agree with everything you said about the Patriarch, though. This is a great creed for him, and it might be worth experimenting with it just to see how survivable you can make him.
If I am misunderstanding anything here, please feel free to correct me. I always value your insights, Shuppet.
If that Castellan can't shoot at your characters, that's a strength of its own, especially since its such a good character killer!
I figured just throw the Abominant and Primus and Clamavus even into CC, but you're right the list probably needs a couple of others, I think Locus is an easy inclusion.
I just figured if they don't kill the Kelermorph he gives buffs, and if they do you can strat it, though probably requires careful play and is match up dependant . In the scenario that the Abominant dies tho, it's sort of magical Christmas land but at the same time you could quite plausibily be shooting a few Lascannon equivalents off a 2+ re-rollable vs whatever killed it. Not like a guarantee or anything, but hey it's a Kelermorph he's worth the inclusion regardless.
The strat might be match up dependant. Though I feel like 130 Neophytes and unkillable Patriarchs will just be chewing out the small stuff tho, especially 60 Broodsurge Neophytes with a Clamavus around. And you can use Jackals to Mark up the small stuff for autoguns if the need be. +1 to hit army wide against some intercessors is worth the 1 CP to me, but I just wouldn't suicide a character for it, which is fine. If they kill a character they get marked for it. Abominant /Aberrants may not be the right call I just kinda whipped that list together to demonstrate the concept of why I think the Cult is kinda good.
I think the 2+++ Patriarch is definitely awesome, and with the Paupers relic you can do dirty things like shoot Mining Lasers, charge with Patriarch into something that will HURT HIM, do a lot of damage to that unit, and then sacrifice those Mining Lasers to shoot them a second time in the same turn and perhaps finish off or focus down a new tank - only one model from each unit has to be in range of loyalty and you can sacrifice whoever you want from that squad. It's cute and won't happen every game, but I think it's cool enough to merit mentioning.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also to be clear on my own behald I'm not trying to say "Pauper Princes new meta!" or anything, just that I think they may have the potential to be as good as the other good Cults.
Ordana wrote: People still use the missile strat since its cost increase?
And against GSC who basically ignore it on a 4+ thanks to Unquestionable devotion?
I wish i had opponents that senselessly burn through their CP like that.
Uh yes? theres a reason they take 2 detachments + brigade + cp regen. Even if it's only going to cripple a character it's worth the CP a lot of the time, especially since it puts them in death range the turn after if not.
You don't take all that CP to sit on it, knocking out a Patriarch or a key character early game can have snowballing impact. Most targets in GSC will die even through the Loyalty, you'd just be throwing away bodies. GSC characters are not at all tanky if you can shoot at them mate, not even with 4++.
***FYI - Major Edit: I was not aware that Rock Drills do not have a -1 to hit penalty. Somehow missed that! I for some reason had it in my head that it had the same penalty as the rock cutter. Anyway, that makes a pretty big difference and I updated my calculations below. Happily, it is an error in the right direction, as it makes drills quite a bit better than I thought they were.**
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on Pauper Princes, Shuppet. I rather do like the concept, although the idea of painting 130 neophytes is a bit much for me. I have painted up 60 already, and I think I'm good for now.
Your post did get me thinking, however, about whether the Pauper Princes trait could make the Heavy Rock Drill viable. I have always really liked the rock drill model, but I wrote it off (as I think most people did) due to its 17 point cost (as well as my apparently unfounded belief that they had a -1 to hit penalty ). It has fun rules, but that's not really good enough when you have access to Rock Saws. Anyway, I wanted to see if the Pauper Princes trait could make the Rock Drill worth taking, as I have a couple of them that I painted just for fun.
After a rather absurd amount of time mathhammering it out, I actually think that Rock Drills could be _close_ to good in a Pauper Princes detachment. I ran the numbers against a couple of potential targets.
For my initial scenario, I considered two different units
1. A 10 man acolyte unit with 3 rock saws, which comes in at 100 points; and
2. A 10 man unit with 2 rock drills, which comes in at 104.
As you can see, it's not exactly perfect due to the awkward 17 point cost of the drill, but just imagine you gave the former unit's leader a bonesword or maybe gave the unit a handful of flamers to even it up. 4 points ain't much. Also please note that I am not trying to create units that would actually "get the job done" during a game, just trying to get a fair comparison of what two similarly-pointed units could deal in terms of damage.
Against a T8 3+ save target (Knight Castellan or similar) the expected damage from the rock saw unit is 5.88 wounds after saves. 2.22 damage is coming from the rest of the squad's rending attacks, and the remaining 3.66 comes from the 3 saws. These numbers of course include the Pauper Princes re-roll to hit trait, just so we are making an apples to apples comparison.
Again the same Knight target, the Rock Drill unit's expected damage before rolling for the drills' special rule is 4.09 wounds. In this case, you are getting approximately 2.63 of those wounds from the rending claws and the other 1.46 comes from the drill. Pretty abysmal at this point, but then we add in the probable damage from the drill's special mortal wounds "Jackpot" rule, which I calculated as follows:
1.46(.8333+(.833 x .666)+(.833 x .666 x. .5)+(.833 x .666 x .5 x .333) + (.833 x .666 x .5 x .333 x .166) = 2.58. So, after adding in the expected wounds value of our 1.46 unsaved drill wounds, we end up at 6.67 wounds on the Knight.
So that's 5.88 wounds for the saws versus 6.67 wounds for the drills. Also, keep in mind that a 1 on that first drill roll is a great candidate for a command re-roll, and causes the drill to pull ahead in the damage calculation even further, as it would make the first number in the calculation a 35/36 instead of a 5/6. So anyway, this looks like a slight advantage for the drillers.
Spoiler:
Edit: since I apparently had nothing better to do on a Friday night, I decided to looks bit more closely at how much the command reroll would affect the expected damage from the drill’s special rule. Essentially, I just turned the 5/6 (.833) entry in every part of that equation into a 35/36 entry (.9722). When carried all the way out, this increases the expected value of a single activation of the drill’s special ability from approx. 1.77 wounds to 2.07 wounds. Note that you can't carry this all the way out across the entire calculation because you can only command re-roll once per phase. Thus, if you want to plug it in to the equation, I would recommend just subtracting 1 from the first number in the equation above (which is 1.46 here) and then adding 2.07 to the product. Not a huge difference, but it seems the drill team is much more of a contender if you are willing to hold back a CP in case you get that 1 on the first roll.
I also looked at using a commonly used unit - the 20 man acolyte unit with 8 saws - and compared it to a similarly costed driller unit. For this calculation I used a 15 acolyte unit with 6 drills. The driller unit is 207 points and the saw unit is 220, so you could feasibly stuff a couple more acolytes in there for extra wounds if you wanted to even it up, but I didn't bother because for this exercise I ignored all the rending claw acolytes' damage. The reason for that is that, in my experience, you aren't ever going to get a full 20 dudes on 32" bases in combat with anything, even something as big as a Knight. There will be terrain, or other units, or something that blocks your ambush from effectively deploying 20 guys close enough to fully engage that squad in combat. So, I just assumed that we made sure we got all the heavy mining weapons in combat plus X number of whatever other acolytes would fit.
As noted in the previous calculation, 2 drillers do an expected damage of 1.46 with their attacks, and then add 2.58 more with the weapon's special rule, for a total of 4.04 damage on average for every two drillers. Thus, the six drillers in this group end up outputting, on average, 12.12 wounds with the Pauper Princes trait, and possible slightly more if you know you are going to re-roll a 1 if you get that whammy on the first roll for their special rule.
Comparatively, the 8 saw acolytes deal an average of 9.76 wounds to the Knight. Advantage: drills.
I also looked at the previously described 10 man units versus a T7 4++ model (something like a Talos or similar). After getting the numbers right, the saw unit deals an average of 5.72 wounds vs. 6.99 wounds from the driller unit. Again, this looks pretty darn good for the drillers, especially since their unit is cheaper and has a smaller footprint, and thus may be easier to ambush in and get all your special weapons guys in combat.
If we consider the Pauper Princes stratagem discussed by Shuppet, above, it should be noted that Driller acolytes love this stratagem too. The stratagem boosts the accuracy of their attacks from 88.88% to 97.21%. This is of course pretty situational since you aren't always going to be able to use that stratagem on the unit the drillers really want to attack.
A couple notes on things I didn't discuss:
First, I didn't bother considering the effect of stuff like the Deliverance Broodsurge +1 to wound strat or the +1 Strength relic. These tools have a symmetrical effect on both weapons since they are both Strength x2, -3 AP weapons.
Might from Beyond is similar, at least as to the +1 Strength effect, but deserves a special note that, while bonus attacks are great for Drillers too, it is actually slightly better for Saws due to the fact that the wonky wording of the special rule for the Drill states that it only triggers once each time each model carrying a drill causes an unsaved wound during each Fight phase, not one time for every wound caused by drills irrespective of who dealt that wound. This is annoying, as if you get Might off and get lucky enough to cause two or three unsaved wounds with one of your Driller models, you still only trigger the "jackpot" mortal wounds explosion once for that model. It also means you have to go to the trouble of either resolving each drillers' attacks one at a time or having enough different colored dice for each driller to have 2 (or 3 for might) of a special color just for him so you can just roll the whole units attacks together.
tl; dr. If you are considering using Rock Drills, the Pauper Princes are definitely the best way to use them. The Pauper Princes' cult creed brings drills almost in parity with Rock Saws, which everyone agrees are a very competitive choice for the unit. While not quite as versatile or cost-effective as Saws, Rock Drills are good enough in Pauper Princes to be worth giving a go if you like the model. They are very good at dealing heavy damage to large, tough models like Knights, but not as good against ordinary multi-wound infantry, where the saw's flat 2 damage really shines. When comparing them 1 to 1 against Saws, it is evident that the main problem they have is that they are overcosted by about 5-ish points, and if you could take as many of them as you could saws they would surely be a competitive choice.
Thanks alot Asmodas for this calculation. Didnt think about drills, but this seems to make it usefull indeed.
I myself use pauper princes a lot, often as single creed in my armies (not competitive at tournaments).
The 'vengance for the martyred' stratagem is very viable, like Shuppet described often situatonal, but a hard one for the opponent.
You don't have to use it every time, but it can make an enemy feel very uncomfortable, just helicoptering above the battlefield.
Had two games where this made me kill enemy key units (again, situational).
One time against a unit of Genestealers, which then got shot and beat up by my neophytes (yeah, i fight even against Tyranids if i feel so!), and one time i killed a unit of Lychguard, which i would not have been able to kill statistically without the +1 to hit in CC.
Not an alltime winner, but if the opponent knows, that you can pull this trick, sometimes, he tries to get the job done by his dispensable units, which then often dont get it done in the end, just to not get the +1 to hit against the better units.
@Asmodas thanks for the great write up. I'll have to consider the drills.
@DaBraken thanks for sharing some real experience with the Cult! Love the mental image of Neophytes shredding up some actual Genestealers in rage for them killing their Liuetenant !
Asmodas wrote: Your post did get me thinking, however, about whether the Pauper Princes trait could make the Heavy Rock Drill viable. I have always really liked the rock drill model, but I wrote it off (as I think most people did) due to its 17 point cost and the -1 to hit issue.
Just want to point out that the Heavy Rock Drill doesn't have a -1 to hit penalty. That'll probably have a significant effect on your calculations.
Asmodas wrote: Your post did get me thinking, however, about whether the Pauper Princes trait could make the Heavy Rock Drill viable. I have always really liked the rock drill model, but I wrote it off (as I think most people did) due to its 17 point cost and the -1 to hit issue.
Just want to point out that the Heavy Rock Drill doesn't have a -1 to hit penalty. That'll probably have a significant effect on your calculations.
Oh wow! I guess that shows you how many times I've used the rock drill recently. I believe it used to have a -1 to hit penalty, and somehow I missed that it doesn't have one any more. I am going to confirm this once I have a chance to look at my codex, but assuming you are correct, that would indeed have a very significant effect on my calculations. For the moment I have put the mathhammer from my post behind a spoiler tag until I've had time to update it, but the lack of a -1 to hit penalty would be huge. No -1 to hit penalty means 33% more hits for each driller in a Pauper Princes detachment (going from 66% hits to 88% hit rate), and, since the numbers for expected damage vis-a-vis rock saws were so close already, the drills are probably going to leapfrog ahead of saws after taking that into account.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well I'll be damned. No -1 to hit penalty. I must have gotten it mixed up with the Rock Cutter. That is a huge difference.
I updated the calculations in my post above. The changes result in a fairly considerable advantage for the drill in all of the scenarios I used above.
Spoiler:
The question arises, however, as to whether we really need Pauper Princes for our drillers? Or can we get away with using a different creed?
I think you still want Pauper Princes, and I will tell you why. As I discussed above, the drill's special mortal wounds jackpot has the weird limitation that it can only be triggered once per model per combat. Thus, even if one model causes two unsaved wounds, it only gets to roll for the jackpot once, and if you have a couple other drillers who whiffed, that's going to give you a real case of the feel-bads. And, since you are paying a premium price over saws to get access to that rule, and essentially nothing else since the weapons' profiles are otherwise identical, you really want every one of your drillers to be rolling for that wounds jackpot every fight phase. Thus, you also want to maximize your odds that each one of your drillers is going to cause an unsaved wound. If you are using saws instead of drills, you don't have this problem.
Seeing as each driller only has 2 attacks base, and your chance of getting a hit is 66%, your expected number of hits per driller is 1.33. If you are rolling against T8, you are only dealing an average of .666 wounds before saves. If rolling against a T7 enemy, you are only dealing 0.88 wounds before saves. Thus, we aren't even getting to the point where our expected wounds per driller is 1.0 or greater, which is where we really want it to be.
Now, we have lots of ways to boost the to-wound roll, including the relic banner, broodsurge stratagem, primus, etc., but not a lot of ways to help with the to-hit roll. The Pauper Princes trait brings our hit percentage up to 88% right off the bat, so now we are dealing .88 wounds to T8 and 1.17 wounds to T7. If you add in one of the other wound-boosting abilities, you can bring it up even higher. For example, with the +1 from the broodsurge detachment, you can hit that Knight for 1.17 wounds per driller. Even with the Knight saving on a 6, you now have a 97.7% chance per driller of putting a wound on the Knight, and therefore a very good chance that each one of our drillers gets to roll for the jackpot. Thus, I think you probably still want to use Pauper Princes if you are going to try to get the most out of drillers.
Thanks to everyone for their comments, and especially MCStanden for pointing out my error with the hit penalty.
I think that it is better to go for the all round bladed cog bonus instead of trying to get a character killed with 'one' enemy target. Mining lasers are 24 inch heavy weapons so you need to move anyway. Instead of sooo many character you could just as well get more neophytes with more lasers. Also dig the 2+ look out sir on the patriarch but I would rather let him focus on 'mental onslaught'.
How about this:
Battalion: Bladed Cog, Deliverance Broodsurge
Patriarch Inspiring leader (+1 LD) (mental onslaught & Mass hypnosis)
Acolyte Iconward, Vial of the Grandsires Blood
Pretty much, Patriarch is already Fearless and makes units around him Fearless so having Ld11 is pretty meaningless in of itself if he's the character you're giving it to. But an extra +1 in a direct dice roll off is a pretty big thing.
I expect if Mental Onslaught is tweaked to be on unmodified Lds we'll end up keeping most of Grandsire's blood inside Grandsire rather than making into pendants for him to wear.
I think that it is better to go for the all round bladed cog bonus instead of trying to get a character killed with 'one' enemy target. Mining lasers are 24 inch heavy weapons so you need to move anyway. Instead of sooo many character you could just as well get more neophytes with more lasers. Also dig the 2+ look out sir on the patriarch but I would rather let him focus on 'mental onslaught'.
How about this:
Battalion: Bladed Cog, Deliverance Broodsurge
Patriarch Inspiring leader (+1 LD) (mental onslaught & Mass hypnosis)
Acolyte Iconward, Vial of the Grandsires Blood
3x Heavy weapon squad with mortars
3x Heavy weapon squad with mortars
3x Heavy weapon squad with mortars
Battalion: Twisted Helix,Anointed Throng
Magus (mind control + might from beyond)
Acolyte Iconward, Icon of the Cult Ascendant
Abominant
10x Brood brothers with mortar (backfield objective keepers)
10x Brood brothers with mortar (backfield objective keepers)
10x Brood brothers with mortar (backfield objective keepers)
10x Aberrants w/Picks, 2x Improvised Weapons
This works too. Honestly, you could make a small separate detachment for the Patriach with the Pauper Princes trait, he can still get the 2++ from Neophytes of any cult, so you could throw him in with whatever as long as you had enough bodies.
I think that it is better to go for the all round bladed cog bonus instead of trying to get a character killed with 'one' enemy target. Mining lasers are 24 inch heavy weapons so you need to move anyway. Instead of sooo many character you could just as well get more neophytes with more lasers. Also dig the 2+ look out sir on the patriarch but I would rather let him focus on 'mental onslaught'.
How about this:
Battalion: Bladed Cog, Deliverance Broodsurge
Patriarch Inspiring leader (+1 LD) (mental onslaught & Mass hypnosis)
Acolyte Iconward, Vial of the Grandsires Blood
3x Heavy weapon squad with mortars
3x Heavy weapon squad with mortars
3x Heavy weapon squad with mortars
Battalion: Twisted Helix,Anointed Throng
Magus (mind control + might from beyond)
Acolyte Iconward, Icon of the Cult Ascendant
Abominant
10x Brood brothers with mortar (backfield objective keepers)
10x Brood brothers with mortar (backfield objective keepers)
10x Brood brothers with mortar (backfield objective keepers)
10x Aberrants w/Picks, 2x Improvised Weapons
This works too. Honestly, you could make a small separate detachment for the Patriach with the Pauper Princes trait, he can still get the 2++ from Neophytes of any cult, so you could throw him in with whatever as long as you had enough bodies.
Unquestioning Loyality is <Cult> limited (or BB). a Bladed Cog Neophyte will happily watch as a Pauper Prince Patriarch is killed next to him.
I think that it is better to go for the all round bladed cog bonus instead of trying to get a character killed with 'one' enemy target. Mining lasers are 24 inch heavy weapons so you need to move anyway. Instead of sooo many character you could just as well get more neophytes with more lasers. Also dig the 2+ look out sir on the patriarch but I would rather let him focus on 'mental onslaught'.
How about this:
Battalion: Bladed Cog, Deliverance Broodsurge
Patriarch Inspiring leader (+1 LD) (mental onslaught & Mass hypnosis)
Acolyte Iconward, Vial of the Grandsires Blood
3x Heavy weapon squad with mortars
3x Heavy weapon squad with mortars
3x Heavy weapon squad with mortars
Battalion: Twisted Helix,Anointed Throng
Magus (mind control + might from beyond)
Acolyte Iconward, Icon of the Cult Ascendant
Abominant
10x Brood brothers with mortar (backfield objective keepers)
10x Brood brothers with mortar (backfield objective keepers)
10x Brood brothers with mortar (backfield objective keepers)
10x Aberrants w/Picks, 2x Improvised Weapons
This works too. Honestly, you could make a small separate detachment for the Patriach with the Pauper Princes trait, he can still get the 2++ from Neophytes of any cult, so you could throw him in with whatever as long as you had enough bodies.
Unquestioning Loyality is <Cult> limited (or BB). a Bladed Cog Neophyte will happily watch as a Pauper Prince Patriarch is killed next to him.
Ah yeah you're right, and that is quite hilarious.
Ordana wrote: Unquestioning Loyality is <Cult> limited (or BB). a Bladed Cog Neophyte will happily watch as a Pauper Prince Patriarch is killed next to him.
Ah yeah you're right, and that is quite hilarious.
"You're not the boss of me!" OR "Hivemind say's no..."
I am really liking these Pauper Prince builds people are putting up. It's going to be six months before I can get enough purchased and painted to run it, but I'm very excited by them. I feel there is a lot of potential in the mining laser, particularly with how many ways we have to get various buffs on it.
Ordana wrote: Unquestioning Loyality is <Cult> limited (or BB). a Bladed Cog Neophyte will happily watch as a Pauper Prince Patriarch is killed next to him.
Ah yeah you're right, and that is quite hilarious.
"You're not the boss of me!" OR "Hivemind say's no..."
I think that it is better to go for the all round bladed cog bonus instead of trying to get a character killed with 'one' enemy target. Mining lasers are 24 inch heavy weapons so you need to move anyway. Instead of sooo many character you could just as well get more neophytes with more lasers. Also dig the 2+ look out sir on the patriarch but I would rather let him focus on 'mental onslaught'.
How about this:
Battalion: Bladed Cog, Deliverance Broodsurge
Patriarch Inspiring leader (+1 LD) (mental onslaught & Mass hypnosis)
Acolyte Iconward, Vial of the Grandsires Blood
3x Heavy weapon squad with mortars
3x Heavy weapon squad with mortars
3x Heavy weapon squad with mortars
Battalion: Twisted Helix,Anointed Throng
Magus (mind control + might from beyond)
Acolyte Iconward, Icon of the Cult Ascendant
Abominant
10x Brood brothers with mortar (backfield objective keepers)
10x Brood brothers with mortar (backfield objective keepers)
10x Brood brothers with mortar (backfield objective keepers)
10x Aberrants w/Picks, 2x Improvised Weapons
Shogun, I think you typo'd, your list has two Jackal Alphus in the same detachment. Did you mean to put an Iconward instead?
What do you think about running a Primus with the mining lasers? If your ambushing several units with lasers, you could drop him next to them and use his designated target ability with them. That plus the Alphus plus potentially a Kelermorph bonus all affecting several units adds up to a pretty scary strike.
Shogun, I think you typo'd, your list has two Jackal Alphus in the same detachment. Did you mean to put an Iconward instead?
Ah yea, forgot about that rule. Just put one Jackal in the first detachment and add an iconward in the second, and drop a heavy weapon team.
babelfish wrote: What do you think about running a Primus with the mining lasers? If your ambushing several units with lasers, you could drop him next to them and use his designated target ability with them. That plus the Alphus plus potentially a Kelermorph bonus all affecting several units adds up to a pretty scary strike.
Yep, but an primus and kellermorph could also be another two mining laser squads. You can do the math but also take into account that more squads means more shooting and more bodies on the field. With 24 inch lasers you cannot cover every part of the field and that kellermorph could die quickly.
While we are on the subject of Pauper Princes, here is a question I came up with while thinking about the cult stratagem:
If a Pauper Princes character is embarked in a cult vehicle, and the vehicle is destroyed by an enemy attack, and you roll a 1 while disembarking, causing the character to be killed, does the stratagem trigger? In other words, does the character count as being killed by the attack that destroyed the vehicle? Or is it considered to just be a casualty of the emergency disembarkation procedure? I can see the argument going either way.
From a fluff perspective, it makes perfect sense that the cult troops would get “triggered” by the death of their Magus in a fiery wreck, and there isn’t really any argument that the Character wouldn’t have died “but for” the attack on the vehicle they were riding on. From a rules mechanics/fairness perspective, I can definitely see an objection because the controlling player gets to choose which models die. Thus, you could theoretically load up Goliaths with something nasty like Aberrants or Demo charge acolytes and a single cheap character such as a Locus, and then if the opponent pops the vehicle before the vehicle reaches its target, you let any 1s kill the character, triggering the stratagem.
Do Clamavus's stack? I'm looking at running a Battalion and a Vanguard, both the same cult and both containing a Clamavus. What I want out of running two of them is flexibility - one can drop with the saw hybrids, the other with the Patriarch, and that gives me more freedom for situations where I want to Mental Onslaught or charge the Patriarch at a unit that isn't close to the target I want to charge the saw hybrids at. In situations where the Patriarch and the saw hybrids are going after the same target, or targets that are close to each other, it won't be hard to get both Clamavus's in range for both units.
So, do they stack? Could you run three detachments for +3 ld or +3 charge? Or am I missing something basic that prevents this?
Just a quick update, folks. I have run the math and it looks to me like the heavy rock drill unit I discussed in my post this weekend (6 drills/15 total acolytes in a Pauper Princes detachment) could plausibly take out a Castellan in a single round of attacks, provided it has both Might from Beyond cast on it and another buff, such as either a Primus or the Broodsurge stratagem. Even without the Primus/Broodsurge stratagem, just the drills deal an average of 22.5 wounds to the Castellan after saves. That is comparable to an 8 saw unit with the same buffs, but costs about 14 points less and has a smaller footprint for deepstriking, etc.
I feel like the main reason folks aren't really seriously considering the drills at this point is that they don't have the models. I understand, as the rock saw has been the go-to choice ever since the 7th edition codex came out, so I assume most people have lots of saws, but few drills unless they just built one for kicks (I mean, just witness the number of comments in this thread and the old one about how to convert more saws).
Thus, I have decided to build the driller unit and go forth and test it out. I had plenty of drill bits (heh) left over from my other acolyte kits,and thus was able to build a full 6 man unit with the addition of just a single extra box for all the legs. I will let you know how it goes!
Asmodas wrote: Thus, I have decided to build the driller unit and go forth and test it out. I had plenty of drill bits (heh) left over from my other acolyte kits,and thus was able to build a full 6 man unit with the addition of just a single extra box for all the legs. I will let you know how it goes!
Drill's could be a better weapon at average, but I think I prefer the solid amount of damage from the saw's. I also believe that a single castellan can be equipped with a 2+ save and then the stil got a 5+save against a drill. And why would you bring a 6 rock drill unit? If you go to the trouble of 'perfect ambushing' an anti-knight unit, in combination with a primus + might from beyond + broodsurge to wound stratagem then you need as much heavy weapons as possible. So go big and bring a 20 acolyte unit with 8 heavy weapons. I tested 6 drills against a knight with 2+ save under the right circumstances (primus, broodsurge stratagem etc..) but without the might from beyond (denied). I rolled for each weapon separately and ended up failing to wound with 3 weapons at all so no extra mortal wounds from them. It's hard to calculate the math with drill's because the results are much more 'whacky' against all different kind of enemy units.
Also, doing the math against a single knight in a vacuum is not the same as, for example a custodes jetbike unit or a unit abberrants with feel no pain. I guess you got to roll for each drill separately and see what happens. Custodes jetbikes could be in more trouble if the drills do well from the start (mortal wounds) but abberants with 2 wounds each could be better handled with rock saws, I think. Might be wrong... considering the feel no pain factor.
Could be that drills are actually more interesting as a single model in regular acolyte units. Just to see if that single drill goes crazy with mortal wounds and (in combination with rending attacks) brings that lone 'wave serpent' down, for example.
Asmodas wrote: Thus, I have decided to build the driller unit and go forth and test it out. I had plenty of drill bits (heh) left over from my other acolyte kits,and thus was able to build a full 6 man unit with the addition of just a single extra box for all the legs. I will let you know how it goes!
Drill's could be a better weapon at average, but I think I prefer the solid amount of damage from the saw's. I also believe that a single castellan can be equipped with a 2+ save and then the stil got a 5+save against a drill. And why would you bring a 6 rock drill unit? If you go to the trouble of 'perfect ambushing' an anti-knight unit, in combination with a primus + might from beyond + broodsurge to wound stratagem then you need as much heavy weapons as possible. So go big and bring a 20 acolyte unit with 8 heavy weapons. I tested 6 drills against a knight with 2+ save under the right circumstances (primus, broodsurge stratagem etc..) but without the might from beyond (denied). I rolled for each weapon separately and ended up failing to wound with 3 weapons at all so no extra mortal wounds from them. It's hard to calculate the math with drill's because the results are much more 'whacky' against all different kind of enemy units.
Also, doing the math against a single knight in a vacuum is not the same as, for example a custodes jetbike unit or a unit abberrants with feel no pain. I guess you got to roll for each drill separately and see what happens. Custodes jetbikes could be in more trouble if the drills do well from the start (mortal wounds) but abberants with 2 wounds each could be better handled with rock saws, I think. Might be wrong... considering the feel no pain factor.
Could be that drills are actually more interesting as a single model in regular acolyte units. Just to see if that single drill goes crazy with mortal wounds and (in combination with rending attacks) brings that lone 'wave serpent' down, for example.
I hear you, and I think the possibility of whiffing with one or more drills is why you really only want to use them in a Pauper Princes detachment. That brings them from a 66% chance to hit to an 88% hit percentage. That makes each drill attack much more reliable, greatly increasing the chance that you get at least one wound per drill. I very much appreciate your response, but will need to correct you on one thing: drills are way better than saws against Aberrants due to the fact that the Bestial Vigor rule always reduces the damage taken by 1. Thus, the saw can never do more than 1 damage per attack, whereas the drill's mortal wounds ability bypasses that protection and just starts laying on mortal wounds.
I was not aware that a Castellan could get a 2+. Is that a relic that does that? I know there is a 5++ in combat relic, but I am unfamiliar with that one.
So each driller gets 3 attacks with Might, generating 2.66 hits. That converts into 66% wounds with +1 S from might, or 1.755 wounds per driller. Even with a 2+ save (and I was not aware a Castellan could get a 2+ - I thought it was typically a 3+), each driller is putting out 1.169 wounds. If you boost it further with the broodsurge stratagem, you get 2.22 wounds per driller, converting into 1.47 wounds per driller after saves, on average. That would still be 8.82 wounds after saves on the Knight, with a very good chance of triggering the mortal wounds jackpot on each driller since the expected number of wounds per driller is well above 1.0. At that point each driller's jackpot round adds up to approximately 10.68 additional mortal wounds. That would still be 19.5 unsaved wounds on the Knight, even with the 2+ save, and we are also not considering any of the wounds from the rest of the squad (and if we are using the broodsurge stratagem, they are putting out rends on a 5+ to wound). The results are obviously not as good as against the 3+ save Knight (who saves 50% less wounds in this scenario), but still pretty formidable. If you bump the unit to 8 models, as you suggest, the average number of wounds goes to 24.14 after saves
Also, please note that I am not necessarily saying you should use Drillers instead of Saws. I, personally, will be using both a large saw unit and the 6 drill unit outlined above.
How are people approaching our worst matchups? The horde killers of the world, like Deathwatch? I am also anticipating open topped flying transports being a real pain.
Asmodas wrote: Thus, I have decided to build the driller unit and go forth and test it out. I had plenty of drill bits (heh) left over from my other acolyte kits,and thus was able to build a full 6 man unit with the addition of just a single extra box for all the legs. I will let you know how it goes!
Drill's could be a better weapon at average, but I think I prefer the solid amount of damage from the saw's. I also believe that a single castellan can be equipped with a 2+ save and then the stil got a 5+save against a drill. And why would you bring a 6 rock drill unit? If you go to the trouble of 'perfect ambushing' an anti-knight unit, in combination with a primus + might from beyond + broodsurge to wound stratagem then you need as much heavy weapons as possible. So go big and bring a 20 acolyte unit with 8 heavy weapons. I tested 6 drills against a knight with 2+ save under the right circumstances (primus, broodsurge stratagem etc..) but without the might from beyond (denied). I rolled for each weapon separately and ended up failing to wound with 3 weapons at all so no extra mortal wounds from them. It's hard to calculate the math with drill's because the results are much more 'whacky' against all different kind of enemy units.
Also, doing the math against a single knight in a vacuum is not the same as, for example a custodes jetbike unit or a unit abberrants with feel no pain. I guess you got to roll for each drill separately and see what happens. Custodes jetbikes could be in more trouble if the drills do well from the start (mortal wounds) but abberants with 2 wounds each could be better handled with rock saws, I think. Might be wrong... considering the feel no pain factor.
Could be that drills are actually more interesting as a single model in regular acolyte units. Just to see if that single drill goes crazy with mortal wounds and (in combination with rending attacks) brings that lone 'wave serpent' down, for example.
I hear you, and I think the possibility of whiffing with one or more drills is why you really only want to use them in a Pauper Princes detachment. That brings them from a 66% chance to hit to an 88% hit percentage. That makes each drill attack much more reliable, greatly increasing the chance that you get at least one wound per drill. I very much appreciate your response, but will need to correct you on one thing: drills are way better than saws against Aberrants due to the fact that the Bestial Vigor rule always reduces the damage taken by 1. Thus, the saw can never do more than 1 damage per attack, whereas the drill's mortal wounds ability bypasses that protection and just starts laying on mortal wounds.
I was not aware that a Castellan could get a 2+. Is that a relic that does that? I know there is a 5++ in combat relic, but I am unfamiliar with that one.
So each driller gets 3 attacks with Might, generating 2.66 hits. That converts into 66% wounds with +1 S from might, or 1.755 wounds per driller. Even with a 2+ save (and I was not aware a Castellan could get a 2+ - I thought it was typically a 3+), each driller is putting out 1.169 wounds. If you boost it further with the broodsurge stratagem, you get 2.22 wounds per driller, converting into 1.47 wounds per driller after saves, on average. That would still be 8.82 wounds after saves on the Knight, with a very good chance of triggering the mortal wounds jackpot on each driller since the expected number of wounds per driller is well above 1.0. At that point each driller's jackpot round adds up to approximately 10.68 additional mortal wounds. That would still be 19.5 unsaved wounds on the Knight, even with the 2+ save, and we are also not considering any of the wounds from the rest of the squad (and if we are using the broodsurge stratagem, they are putting out rends on a 5+ to wound). The results are obviously not as good as against the 3+ save Knight (who saves 50% less wounds in this scenario), but still pretty formidable. If you bump the unit to 8 models, as you suggest, the average number of wounds goes to 24.14 after saves
Also, please note that I am not necessarily saying you should use Drillers instead of Saws. I, personally, will be using both a large saw unit and the 6 drill unit outlined above.
I just don't feel the re-roll from PP is worth it. Your base hitting on 3's. You'll always get an Icon for re-rolling 1's so PP lets you re-roll 2's. And if your in range of a Primus it doesn't actually do anything at all since your hitting on 2's re-rolling 1's either way.
Asmodas wrote: Thus, I have decided to build the driller unit and go forth and test it out. I had plenty of drill bits (heh) left over from my other acolyte kits,and thus was able to build a full 6 man unit with the addition of just a single extra box for all the legs. I will let you know how it goes!
Drill's could be a better weapon at average, but I think I prefer the solid amount of damage from the saw's. I also believe that a single castellan can be equipped with a 2+ save and then the stil got a 5+save against a drill. And why would you bring a 6 rock drill unit? If you go to the trouble of 'perfect ambushing' an anti-knight unit, in combination with a primus + might from beyond + broodsurge to wound stratagem then you need as much heavy weapons as possible. So go big and bring a 20 acolyte unit with 8 heavy weapons. I tested 6 drills against a knight with 2+ save under the right circumstances (primus, broodsurge stratagem etc..) but without the might from beyond (denied). I rolled for each weapon separately and ended up failing to wound with 3 weapons at all so no extra mortal wounds from them. It's hard to calculate the math with drill's because the results are much more 'whacky' against all different kind of enemy units.
Also, doing the math against a single knight in a vacuum is not the same as, for example a custodes jetbike unit or a unit abberrants with feel no pain. I guess you got to roll for each drill separately and see what happens. Custodes jetbikes could be in more trouble if the drills do well from the start (mortal wounds) but abberants with 2 wounds each could be better handled with rock saws, I think. Might be wrong... considering the feel no pain factor.
Could be that drills are actually more interesting as a single model in regular acolyte units. Just to see if that single drill goes crazy with mortal wounds and (in combination with rending attacks) brings that lone 'wave serpent' down, for example.
I hear you, and I think the possibility of whiffing with one or more drills is why you really only want to use them in a Pauper Princes detachment. That brings them from a 66% chance to hit to an 88% hit percentage. That makes each drill attack much more reliable, greatly increasing the chance that you get at least one wound per drill. I very much appreciate your response, but will need to correct you on one thing: drills are way better than saws against Aberrants due to the fact that the Bestial Vigor rule always reduces the damage taken by 1. Thus, the saw can never do more than 1 damage per attack, whereas the drill's mortal wounds ability bypasses that protection and just starts laying on mortal wounds.
I was not aware that a Castellan could get a 2+. Is that a relic that does that? I know there is a 5++ in combat relic, but I am unfamiliar with that one.
So each driller gets 3 attacks with Might, generating 2.66 hits. That converts into 66% wounds with +1 S from might, or 1.755 wounds per driller. Even with a 2+ save (and I was not aware a Castellan could get a 2+ - I thought it was typically a 3+), each driller is putting out 1.169 wounds. If you boost it further with the broodsurge stratagem, you get 2.22 wounds per driller, converting into 1.47 wounds per driller after saves, on average. That would still be 8.82 wounds after saves on the Knight, with a very good chance of triggering the mortal wounds jackpot on each driller since the expected number of wounds per driller is well above 1.0. At that point each driller's jackpot round adds up to approximately 10.68 additional mortal wounds. That would still be 19.5 unsaved wounds on the Knight, even with the 2+ save, and we are also not considering any of the wounds from the rest of the squad (and if we are using the broodsurge stratagem, they are putting out rends on a 5+ to wound). The results are obviously not as good as against the 3+ save Knight (who saves 50% less wounds in this scenario), but still pretty formidable. If you bump the unit to 8 models, as you suggest, the average number of wounds goes to 24.14 after saves
Also, please note that I am not necessarily saying you should use Drillers instead of Saws. I, personally, will be using both a large saw unit and the 6 drill unit outlined above.
I just don't feel the re-roll from PP is worth it. Your base hitting on 3's. You'll always get an Icon for re-rolling 1's so PP lets you re-roll 2's. And if your in range of a Primus it doesn't actually do anything at all since your hitting on 2's re-rolling 1's either way.
That all makes sense, although it should be noted that you can save 10 points per unit with PP because you don't need icons (and it gives the rerolls to units like neophytes, where you probably wouldn't bother with an icon in the first place).
Like I said, I am going to experiment with it and see how it works. There are other good things about PP besides the re-roll, such as the warlord trait and the stratagem (the relic is kind of meh, but there are other good options so no biggy). I will give it a go, and if it doesn't work out I will probably just go back to my Bladed Cog list, which has been working great for me. I will let you guys know either way.
Asmodas wrote: Thus, I have decided to build the driller unit and go forth and test it out. I had plenty of drill bits (heh) left over from my other acolyte kits,and thus was able to build a full 6 man unit with the addition of just a single extra box for all the legs. I will let you know how it goes!
Drill's could be a better weapon at average, but I think I prefer the solid amount of damage from the saw's. I also believe that a single castellan can be equipped with a 2+ save and then the stil got a 5+save against a drill. And why would you bring a 6 rock drill unit? If you go to the trouble of 'perfect ambushing' an anti-knight unit, in combination with a primus + might from beyond + broodsurge to wound stratagem then you need as much heavy weapons as possible. So go big and bring a 20 acolyte unit with 8 heavy weapons. I tested 6 drills against a knight with 2+ save under the right circumstances (primus, broodsurge stratagem etc..) but without the might from beyond (denied). I rolled for each weapon separately and ended up failing to wound with 3 weapons at all so no extra mortal wounds from them. It's hard to calculate the math with drill's because the results are much more 'whacky' against all different kind of enemy units.
Also, doing the math against a single knight in a vacuum is not the same as, for example a custodes jetbike unit or a unit abberrants with feel no pain. I guess you got to roll for each drill separately and see what happens. Custodes jetbikes could be in more trouble if the drills do well from the start (mortal wounds) but abberants with 2 wounds each could be better handled with rock saws, I think. Might be wrong... considering the feel no pain factor.
Could be that drills are actually more interesting as a single model in regular acolyte units. Just to see if that single drill goes crazy with mortal wounds and (in combination with rending attacks) brings that lone 'wave serpent' down, for example.
I hear you, and I think the possibility of whiffing with one or more drills is why you really only want to use them in a Pauper Princes detachment. That brings them from a 66% chance to hit to an 88% hit percentage. That makes each drill attack much more reliable, greatly increasing the chance that you get at least one wound per drill.
Rather pick a primus + icon for that, but my army focusses on a big acolyte units with character support group (patriarch + clamavus + primus + iconward).
Asmodas wrote: I very much appreciate your response, but will need to correct you on one thing: drills are way better than saws against Aberrants due to the fact that the Bestial Vigor rule always reduces the damage taken by 1. Thus, the saw can never do more than 1 damage per attack, whereas the drill's mortal wounds ability bypasses that protection and just starts laying on mortal wounds.
Ah thats right, forgot about that one... Just wanted to make the point that you get wacky results with the drill, specifically with multi wound models. Feel no pain is also a whacky effect. A drill attack countered with feel no pain doesn't activate the mortal wounds.
Asmodas wrote: I was not aware that a Castellan could get a 2+. Is that a relic that does that? I know there is a 5++ in combat relic, but I am unfamiliar with that one.
Armor of the sainted ion (relic). I know it is possible but not if it is likely.. Not a knight player.. Could also be 'sanctuary' general 5+ inv save. So also a 5+ save against drills and rock saws.
Asmodas wrote: So each driller gets 3 attacks with Might, generating 2.66 hits. That converts into 66% wounds with +1 S from might, or 1.755 wounds per driller. Even with a 2+ save (and I was not aware a Castellan could get a 2+ - I thought it was typically a 3+), each driller is putting out 1.169 wounds. If you boost it further with the broodsurge stratagem, you get 2.22 wounds per driller, converting into 1.47 wounds per driller after saves, on average. That would still be 8.82 wounds after saves on the Knight, with a very good chance of triggering the mortal wounds jackpot on each driller since the expected number of wounds per driller is well above 1.0. At that point each driller's jackpot round adds up to approximately 10.68 additional mortal wounds. That would still be 19.5 unsaved wounds on the Knight, even with the 2+ save, and we are also not considering any of the wounds from the rest of the squad (and if we are using the broodsurge stratagem, they are putting out rends on a 5+ to wound). The results are obviously not as good as against the 3+ save Knight (who saves 50% less wounds in this scenario), but still pretty formidable. If you bump the unit to 8 models, as you suggest, the average number of wounds goes to 24.14 after saves
Also, please note that I am not necessarily saying you should use Drillers instead of Saws. I, personally, will be using both a large saw unit and the 6 drill unit outlined above.
Yep, apart from all the calculations it comes down to this; Rocksaws do a decent amount of damage and drills could get really random effects. It can perform badly or totally destroy a unit.
List is just an example of what Pauper Princes might do well, and might do with some tweaking.
While I do like the Pauper Princes (my first game with the codex involved them), I'm inclined to think that the list you raised would probably run better as Hivecult or Bladed Cog. For Hivecult, Chilling Efficiency has an easier trigger condition to get an army wide +1 to hit for shooting and their creed abilities offer better synergy with mass Neophytes, while Bladed Cog does more for the Abominant/Aberrants (stratagem is great with Chosen One aura and the Abominant very much likes the relic) and their trait is great for the Kelermorph (4+ invul) and Neophyte mining lasers (no heavy penalty).
My own experience with Pauper Princes is that they do a very mean Aberrant spam with an Abominant lugging around the relic and MSU Acolytes to do chaff clearing. Aberrants do not like taking leadership checks which the relic solves handedly while also providing a CP free (but less reliable) version of the Devotion Till Death stratagem.
I concur that the Pauper Princes warlord trait is most excellent for the Patriarch, though the Hivecult and Bladed Cog traits are probably going to offer more for what your list wants to do. Hivecult gives you an always on version of the Kelermorph's aura to further enhance accuracy and the Bladed Cog trait gives you an extra instance of Meticulous Planning with the added benefit of rerolling ALL wound rolls against the target rather than 1's.
babelfish wrote: So, do they stack? Could you run three detachments for +3 ld or +3 charge? Or am I missing something basic that prevents this?
While it was already answered, I just wanted to add page 6 of the Rulebook FAQ says multiple instances of the same ability do not stack unless the ability specifically says it can.
Gordoape wrote:How are people approaching our worst matchups? The horde killers of the world, like Deathwatch? I am also anticipating open topped flying transports being a real pain.
If you have a lot of anti-horde in your meta go mechanized. GSC does mech very well compared to most armies since we have plenty of cheap vehicles to choose from and embarking troops doesn't reduce our firepower much (Goliath is open topped, Chimera has Las-array). Dark Eldar Druhkari and Harlequin vehicles also really do not enjoy facing mass autocannon fire, which Goliaths can provide in abundance.
Asmodas wrote: Thus, I have decided to build the driller unit and go forth and test it out. I had plenty of drill bits (heh) left over from my other acolyte kits,and thus was able to build a full 6 man unit with the addition of just a single extra box for all the legs. I will let you know how it goes!
Drill's could be a better weapon at average, but I think I prefer the solid amount of damage from the saw's. I also believe that a single castellan can be equipped with a 2+ save and then the stil got a 5+save against a drill. And why would you bring a 6 rock drill unit? If you go to the trouble of 'perfect ambushing' an anti-knight unit, in combination with a primus + might from beyond + broodsurge to wound stratagem then you need as much heavy weapons as possible. So go big and bring a 20 acolyte unit with 8 heavy weapons. I tested 6 drills against a knight with 2+ save under the right circumstances (primus, broodsurge stratagem etc..) but without the might from beyond (denied). I rolled for each weapon separately and ended up failing to wound with 3 weapons at all so no extra mortal wounds from them. It's hard to calculate the math with drill's because the results are much more 'whacky' against all different kind of enemy units.
Also, doing the math against a single knight in a vacuum is not the same as, for example a custodes jetbike unit or a unit abberrants with feel no pain. I guess you got to roll for each drill separately and see what happens. Custodes jetbikes could be in more trouble if the drills do well from the start (mortal wounds) but abberants with 2 wounds each could be better handled with rock saws, I think. Might be wrong... considering the feel no pain factor.
Could be that drills are actually more interesting as a single model in regular acolyte units. Just to see if that single drill goes crazy with mortal wounds and (in combination with rending attacks) brings that lone 'wave serpent' down, for example.
I hear you, and I think the possibility of whiffing with one or more drills is why you really only want to use them in a Pauper Princes detachment. That brings them from a 66% chance to hit to an 88% hit percentage. That makes each drill attack much more reliable, greatly increasing the chance that you get at least one wound per drill.
Rather pick a primus + icon for that, but my army focusses on a big acolyte units with character support group (patriarch + clamavus + primus + iconward).
Asmodas wrote: I very much appreciate your response, but will need to correct you on one thing: drills are way better than saws against Aberrants due to the fact that the Bestial Vigor rule always reduces the damage taken by 1. Thus, the saw can never do more than 1 damage per attack, whereas the drill's mortal wounds ability bypasses that protection and just starts laying on mortal wounds.
Ah thats right, forgot about that one... Just wanted to make the point that you get wacky results with the drill, specifically with multi wound models. Feel no pain is also a whacky effect. A drill attack countered with feel no pain doesn't activate the mortal wounds.
Asmodas wrote: I was not aware that a Castellan could get a 2+. Is that a relic that does that? I know there is a 5++ in combat relic, but I am unfamiliar with that one.
Armor of the sainted ion (relic). I know it is possible but not if it is likely.. Not a knight player.. Could also be 'sanctuary' general 5+ inv save. So also a 5+ save against drills and rock saws.
Asmodas wrote: So each driller gets 3 attacks with Might, generating 2.66 hits. That converts into 66% wounds with +1 S from might, or 1.755 wounds per driller. Even with a 2+ save (and I was not aware a Castellan could get a 2+ - I thought it was typically a 3+), each driller is putting out 1.169 wounds. If you boost it further with the broodsurge stratagem, you get 2.22 wounds per driller, converting into 1.47 wounds per driller after saves, on average. That would still be 8.82 wounds after saves on the Knight, with a very good chance of triggering the mortal wounds jackpot on each driller since the expected number of wounds per driller is well above 1.0. At that point each driller's jackpot round adds up to approximately 10.68 additional mortal wounds. That would still be 19.5 unsaved wounds on the Knight, even with the 2+ save, and we are also not considering any of the wounds from the rest of the squad (and if we are using the broodsurge stratagem, they are putting out rends on a 5+ to wound). The results are obviously not as good as against the 3+ save Knight (who saves 50% less wounds in this scenario), but still pretty formidable. If you bump the unit to 8 models, as you suggest, the average number of wounds goes to 24.14 after saves
Also, please note that I am not necessarily saying you should use Drillers instead of Saws. I, personally, will be using both a large saw unit and the 6 drill unit outlined above.
Yep, apart from all the calculations it comes down to this; Rocksaws do a decent amount of damage and drills could get really random effects. It can perform badly or totally destroy a unit.
I was going to post a lengthy response to this, but then I realized that I do not really disagree with anything you're saying here. The drills are swingy, and thus probably not a top tier choice if you are going to a tournament and need something that is extremely reliable, but they are fun and have a very flavorful mechanic with the mortal wound mechanic.
I will just refer back to what I said in my original post on the subject a couple pages back: in my opinion, the drills are being slept on a bit, and Pauper Princes makes them a lot more reliable than they are normally. If you want to play with drills (and I do, since I like the model), Pauper Princes combined with Might from Beyond and/or the Broodsurge strat should give you a pretty good chance of dealing heavy damage to a single target, but they are less good against ordinary multi-wound infantry, where the saws are a bit better due to the flat 2 damage. Tbh, I think they compete less against the saws and more against hammerants due to their similar target profile.
As to Strat_N8's point, I rather like the idea of using the Pauper Prince relic on an Abominant. Hadn't thought of that before. Maybe alongside a biggish (8 or so models) power pick unit?
I don’t think I’d want to take mass open transports, that seems like worse guard. Honesty I don’t see neophytes as a very competitor choice at al?
Editing: but don’t knock it till you’ve tried it I guess. Goliaths strike me as pretty decent on paper but don’t really solve the overwatch problem. I don’t see any shooting or neophyte heavy list being too good to be honest.
Asmodas wrote: I will just refer back to what I said in my original post on the subject a couple pages back: in my opinion, the drills are being slept on a bit, and Pauper Princes makes them a lot more reliable than they are normally. If you want to play with drills (and I do, since I like the model), Pauper Princes combined with Might from Beyond and/or the Broodsurge strat should give you a pretty good chance of dealing heavy damage to a single target, but they are less good against ordinary multi-wound infantry, where the saws are a bit better due to the flat 2 damage. Tbh, I think they compete less against the saws and more against hammerants due to their similar target profile.
Also take into consideration that a knight could be 'questor mechanicus' and the 'benevolence of the machine spirit' gives it a specific 5+ feel no pain against mortal wounds. Knight player could activate it at the start of the first mortal wound.
Asmodas wrote: I will just refer back to what I said in my original post on the subject a couple pages back: in my opinion, the drills are being slept on a bit, and Pauper Princes makes them a lot more reliable than they are normally. If you want to play with drills (and I do, since I like the model), Pauper Princes combined with Might from Beyond and/or the Broodsurge strat should give you a pretty good chance of dealing heavy damage to a single target, but they are less good against ordinary multi-wound infantry, where the saws are a bit better due to the flat 2 damage. Tbh, I think they compete less against the saws and more against hammerants due to their similar target profile.
Also take into consideration that a knight could be 'questor mechanicus' and the 'benevolence of the machine spirit' gives it a specific 5+ feel no pain against mortal wounds. Knight player could activate it at the start of the first mortal wound.
That's good to know as well. To be honest, I don't see a ton of Knights at my local, so I am not all that familiar with their rules. I also exclusively play Xenos armies, and my most common opponents tend to be Eldar, Marines, Guard, Orks and Chaos. Thus, I apologize if I'm ignorant of some of these Knight special abilities and relics - I am certainly not trying to lead anyone down the wrong path by omitting relevant factors. I mostly picked a Knight profile (T8 3+ save) just to illustrate how many wounds you could expect against that Toughness/Save combination with the various weapon options. It could just as easily be a Russ or something (although obviously that target has a lot fewer wounds).
Gordoape wrote: How are people approaching our worst matchups? The horde killers of the world, like Deathwatch? I am also anticipating open topped flying transports being a real pain.
Horde killer armies are not the problem. Horde killer armies that know how to push back GSC-deepstrike with successful bubblewrap are a problem. Let's pick a Ork army with a few big boyz units + grotz + loota-bomb. If the get first turn the can move forward + jump a big conga-line unit grots midfield as a bubblewrap screen. I could put GSC units in reserve or just charge the grotz put then the boyz countercharge next turn and even move forward faster. I could wait another turn but then the orks got the whole (mid)field covered and keeps GSC on the ropes. GSC units really need to lock ork units in close combat (tri- podding?) because if the loota's can fire(twice) the really shred GSC units.
Dunno much about deathwatch, 10 stormbolters with nasty deathwatch upgrades are probably hurtful but as long as GSC can charge them (+ mass hypnosis to deny overwatch) it doesn't matter I think.
Don't think open topped flying transports (drukhari?) are that nasty because they are pretty easy to take down with regular rending claws. As long as you can assault them!
Never shoot drukhari or Harlequin transports if you can assault them instead. Nothing shoots efficient enough to down them, especially venoms at 65pts.
DW were a particular problem in ITC. It's important to discuss which format folks are using since it changed the meta imensly at times.
On that note, the big FAQ changed some things. DW cannot use beta bolter dicipline with special issue ammo. Thats a plus.
On the down side we took some hits. Mental onslaught no longer an auto kill, but we all know or should have knokw this was coming. Also, brood brother squads from our book can no longer be issued orders. Thats a big change to some folks armies. I think Neophytes are flat better now.
Kapitan Montag wrote: Yup also FAQ says explicitly no turn 1 deep strike from "they came from below". So summoning is only source of turn 1 Ds now.
None of the changes affect me really since I played with this in mind. I feel it was pretty obvious where the changes were made. I think over all we came out where we were in comparison to some of the other things that took hits.
Kapitan Montag wrote: Yup also FAQ says explicitly no turn 1 deep strike from "they came from below". So summoning is only source of turn 1 Ds now.
Mind telling me where, I searched the faq for they came from below and it isn't mentioned, so explicitly is already wrong, and tactical reserve rule still says:
For clarity, this matched play rule does not apply to units that are set up on the battlefield during Deployment, but
that use Stratagems, abilities, psychic powers etc. to be removed from the battlefield and set back up during the first or
subsequent battle rounds.
Kapitan Montag wrote: Yup also FAQ says explicitly no turn 1 deep strike from "they came from below". So summoning is only source of turn 1 Ds now.
Mind telling me where, I searched the faq for they came from below and it isn't mentioned, so explicitly is already wrong, and tactical reserve rule still says:
For clarity, this matched play rule does not apply to units that are set up on the battlefield during Deployment, but
that use Stratagems, abilities, psychic powers etc. to be removed from the battlefield and set back up during the first or
subsequent battle rounds.
Page 110 – They Came From Below...Add the following sentence:‘Any units set up underground in this way cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round. You can only use this Stratagem once per battle.
there GSCFAQ
Right, so the codex now has a rule that makes the army that was all about infiltrating (fluff and rullewise, they were the most notable exception to tactical reserves when it was introduces) and makes them the exception to the exception of tactical reserves so they are the only one that start deployed and can't DS turn 1), while orcs, necrons, thousands sons, etc... can? Or did they hide their exceptions in each separate codex to. If GW thinks I'll ever pay a cent for one of their products they can think again.
Thanks for the replies on tough matchups, those are helpful.
With the orders change, I'm almost more annoyed that I now have to keep track of which of my guardsmen are in which detachment. I think ultimately I'll move towards having them all in the AM detachment and only acolytes as troops in my GSC detachments.
Asmodas wrote:
As to Strat_N8's point, I rather like the idea of using the Pauper Prince relic on an Abominant. Hadn't thought of that before. Maybe alongside a biggish (8 or so models) power pick unit?
The Abominat is really the perfect caddy for it. He is hard to kill and it gives him a more general purpose aura to go with his Aberrant specific one and anti-psyker one. Plus as I said the Aberrants very much appreciate not having to take moral tests.
With Pauper Princes I've mostly used mixed squads with some Hammers and Picks (I only have 2 Hypermorphs, so they tend to be sequestered with all pick units to give a tool against high toughness targets). Hammers really benefit from the rerolls granted by the trait and give the squad more flexibility in targets, but pure hammer squads are very vulnerable to getting tarpitted. Having a few picks mixed in helps keep opposing infantry at bay and gives some ablative wounds.
I prefer Bladed Cog for pure pick squads. The ability to stack +1 hit from the Abominant and +1 attack die from their signature stratagem is quite nice paired with the volume of dice they already throw.
Gordoape wrote:I don’t think I’d want to take mass open transports, that seems like worse guard. Honesty I don’t see neophytes as a very competitor choice at al?
My experience with mech GSC is that it plays more aggressively than mech guard. Barring Hivecult lists tailored for gunline tactics the main purpose of mech is to aggressively get units up the board and pin the opponent in their deployment zone so they can't push back deepstrike as effectively.
Neophyte trucks are your mid-field objective sitters. They generally take the flanks of the armor column and move towards objectives. The center is generally comprised of Acolyte Demotrucks, Rockgrinders (characters and Aberrants can go here), Jackals, and any aggressive AM vehicles you brought (Scout Sentinels, Hellhound-chassis, etc.).
Gordoape wrote:
Editing: but don’t knock it till you’ve tried it I guess. Goliaths strike me as pretty decent on paper but don’t really solve the overwatch problem. I don’t see any shooting or neophyte heavy list being too good to be honest.
The chassis itself is a fairly good overwatch solution. Just charge the Goliath in after unloading cargo. I also tend to issue charges against screens to get my delivery trucks further up the field, since next to no one will stay locked in with said truck and it is fairly resistant to most standard infantry attacks.
A mech list does not mean a shooting-centric list necessarily. Most of my "balanced" (not skewing for Hivecult) mech lists have melee infantry passengers riding along with the vehicles, and Rockgrinders themselves are aggressive melee units.
Thepatriarch wrote:Right, so the codex now has a rule that makes the army that was all about infiltrating (fluff and rullewise, they were the most notable exception to tactical reserves when it was introduces) and makes them the exception to the exception of tactical reserves so they are the only one that start deployed and can't DS turn 1), while orcs, necrons, thousands sons, etc... can?
We're still the only army that can put more than half our points in reserve (between They Came From Below, Tectonic Fragdrill, and Psychic Summons) and the only army with deep strike innately available on all non-vehicle units.
Fluff-wise the nerf makes sense. The stratagem basically represents units near the surface being redeployed into the tunnels. They need time to get to their positions. The fluff for the exceptions basically amounts to teleportation (save maybe the Necron one - haven't had a look at their codex for awhile).
Asmodas wrote:
As to Strat_N8's point, I rather like the idea of using the Pauper Prince relic on an Abominant. Hadn't thought of that before. Maybe alongside a biggish (8 or so models) power pick unit?
The Abominat is really the perfect caddy for it. He is hard to kill and it gives him a more general purpose aura to go with his Aberrant specific one and anti-psyker one. Plus as I said the Aberrants very much appreciate not having to take moral tests.
With Pauper Princes I've mostly used mixed squads with some Hammers and Picks (I only have 2 Hypermorphs, so they tend to be sequestered with all pick units to give a tool against high toughness targets). Hammers really benefit from the rerolls granted by the trait and give the squad more flexibility in targets, but pure hammer squads are very vulnerable to getting tarpitted. Having a few picks mixed in helps keep opposing infantry at bay and gives some ablative wounds.
I prefer Bladed Cog for pure pick squads. The ability to stack +1 hit from the Abominant and +1 attack die from their signature stratagem is quite nice paired with the volume of dice they already throw.
Gordoape wrote:I don’t think I’d want to take mass open transports, that seems like worse guard. Honesty I don’t see neophytes as a very competitor choice at al?
My experience with mech GSC is that it plays more aggressively than mech guard. Barring Hivecult lists tailored for gunline tactics the main purpose of mech is to aggressively get units up the board and pin the opponent in their deployment zone so they can't push back deepstrike as effectively.
Neophyte trucks are your mid-field objective sitters. They generally take the flanks of the armor column and move towards objectives. The center is generally comprised of Acolyte Demotrucks, Rockgrinders (characters and Aberrants can go here), Jackals, and any aggressive AM vehicles you brought (Scout Sentinels, Hellhound-chassis, etc.).
Gordoape wrote:
Editing: but don’t knock it till you’ve tried it I guess. Goliaths strike me as pretty decent on paper but don’t really solve the overwatch problem. I don’t see any shooting or neophyte heavy list being too good to be honest.
The chassis itself is a fairly good overwatch solution. Just charge the Goliath in after unloading cargo. I also tend to issue charges against screens to get my delivery trucks further up the field, since next to no one will stay locked in with said truck and it is fairly resistant to most standard infantry attacks.
A mech list does not mean a shooting-centric list necessarily. Most of my "balanced" (not skewing for Hivecult) mech lists have melee infantry passengers riding along with the vehicles, and Rockgrinders themselves are aggressive melee units.
Thepatriarch wrote:Right, so the codex now has a rule that makes the army that was all about infiltrating (fluff and rullewise, they were the most notable exception to tactical reserves when it was introduces) and makes them the exception to the exception of tactical reserves so they are the only one that start deployed and can't DS turn 1), while orcs, necrons, thousands sons, etc... can?
We're still the only army that can put more than half our points in reserve (between They Came From Below, Tectonic Fragdrill, and Psychic Summons) and the only army with deep strike innately available on all non-vehicle units.
Fluff-wise the nerf makes sense. The stratagem basically represents units near the surface being redeployed into the tunnels. They need time to get to their positions. The fluff for the exceptions basically amounts to teleportation (save maybe the Necron one - haven't had a look at their codex for awhile).
Yeah I guess I'm still somewhat caught on the idea of using hordes to neutralize heavy guns, which GSC does incredibly well. The trucks seem to give a new target for them to shoot at. But I haven't played enough games to say one or the other definitively. The one thing I can say so far is: Even more Acolytes!!
Yeah I guess I'm still somewhat caught on the idea of using hordes to neutralize heavy guns, which GSC does incredibly well. The trucks seem to give a new target for them to shoot at. But I haven't played enough games to say one or the other definitively. The one thing I can say so far is: Even more Acolytes!!
It is a bit of a trade off. The best defense I've found from vehicles is the pressure they can put on the foe via threat overload and positional dominance. It is fairly easy for mechanized GSC lists to get themselves (and their cargo) in good positions for an overwhelming offensive turn 2 when the ambushers arrive.
With the castellan perhaps not being as major a meta presence in the foreseeable future, the amount of anti-armor will probably go down a bit from the current over-saturated levels.
So, I read the FAQ, then the thread about all the FAQ's. Overall, I think that it is good for us. We took some hits, but those hits were things we could reasonably see coming. Mental Onslaught was never staying unnerfed. 1st turn deep strikes were going away. I'm honestly only surprised that as many of those survived as actually did-GW clearly does not want 1st turn deep strikes or charges to be part of the game.
<mental onslaught rant>The mental onslaught nerf is the stupidest ruling in a long line of stupid rulings. GW thought process: "Hmmm.....we want to tone down this power because it can generate a lot more damage that we intended. We could make it based on unmodified score, removing the bonus shenanigans that are the cause of the problem. Or maybe we could make it use casters unmodified ld, or targets unmodified, thus leaving it powerful but limiting it. Wait! I know! Lets just haved it fail on a random roll of a 6, no skill, strategy, or counterplay involved. Let's do that because the ants that I have in my skull instead of a brain think random is good! </rant>
So I think the game is going to shift towards double Knight + IG, IG superheavy + screen, and attempts to counter these two builds. Elder and Orks got weakened. We have strong tools against single superheavy builds, in that we all but hard counter them. Losing Mental Onslaught as a way to kill the second superheavy and flyers hurts, but I think we can still pull it off. We have great 2nd turn screen clearing units, strong third turn murder drops, and the ability to pick up units for a 4th turn drop.
I think the counter Knight builds are going to be weak to us. We eat Tau and Guiliman gunlines alive. We might struggle with Chaos, but they struggle with Knights.
I think mass laser infantry builds have potential. I think 16 saw builds have potential. I think there may be a sneaky vehicle build that takes advantage of only losing two to three a turn. I would not be surprised to see GSC heavy armies on final tables.
There should be a rise of Mech and transport. This can be annoying as Eldar and Tau mechs have FLY and with some screening, can be incredibly hard to reach.
Additionally, alot of passive buffs work in Overwatch now, so overwatch is going hurt more if we let it happen.
Deshkar wrote: There should be a rise of Mech and transport. This can be annoying as Eldar and Tau mechs have FLY and with some screening, can be incredibly hard to reach.
Additionally, alot of passive buffs work in Overwatch now, so overwatch is going hurt more if we let it happen.
Those are both good points. The build I am personally most afraid of is DE Venom spam. I splashed into Hive Guard specifically because of them, and still think I'm at a disadvantage.
SHUPPET wrote: Mental Onslaught was one of the dumbest things in current 40k and absolutely needed a nerf.
Mental Onslaught is literally useless now. Out of 4 possible outcomes we only win with a higher score, right after having to cast the power and have it not denied. They shouldn't have applied the same treatment of Death Grip since it only does a repeated interaction of 1 MW and not D3. Just cap it at 6 Mortal Wounds and call it a day (this way it would still serve its purpose, aka snipe or finish of characters/models)
SHUPPET wrote: Mental Onslaught was one of the dumbest things in current 40k and absolutely needed a nerf.
True, but now it's almost useless. Together with the 'psionic blast' GSC got two terrible sucky 'smite' powers. 'Mind control' always was a nice power but now a big shooty knight only needs to put an enemy unit within 1 inch of the knight and it's useless.
Without 'mental onslaught' I just invest in more 'power saws' and screen clearing units.
SHUPPET wrote: Having a second, targetable Smite is never useless. It just isn't super powerful anymore.
My 'prime' Patriarch got the croughling because I really want the 'might from beyond' + 'mass hypnosis' (familiar) to work when my units drop into the game. That patriarch might have the 'psychic stimilus' as a third power (croughling) because it could be really nice to give a GSC unit an advance boost, but thats very situational because if the power doesn't work my unit just advanced and cannot charge. That's why the 'croughling' patriarch needs this, to increase the changes it works.
After that I might let my magus join the group and cast 'mind control' but I might be leaving him on the shelf now and just invest these points into another patriarch with this power. As a second power I would not go for 'mental onslaught' because I would rather cast 'smite' instead.
Even with a third psyker I would rather give them the other powers. Not going to pay for a familiar to make sure I could cast smite + mental onslaught at the same time once in the game. At that point you could just as well get a neurothrope with psychic scream.
Yes, 'Mental onslaught' can target units but even a platoon commander is hard to kill with this power now.
SHUPPET wrote: Mental Onslaught was one of the dumbest things in current 40k and absolutely needed a nerf.
True, but now it's almost useless. Together with the 'psionic blast' GSC got two terrible sucky 'smite' powers. 'Mind control' always was a nice power but now a big shooty knight only needs to put an enemy unit within 1 inch of the knight and it's useless.
Without 'mental onslaught' I just invest in more 'power saws' and screen clearing units.
This counter to Mind Control is not new, Its been a thing since forever.
The Faq just spelled it out for all the people that didn't realise it.
SHUPPET wrote: Mental Onslaught was one of the dumbest things in current 40k and absolutely needed a nerf.
True, but now it's almost useless. Together with the 'psionic blast' GSC got two terrible sucky 'smite' powers. 'Mind control' always was a nice power but now a big shooty knight only needs to put an enemy unit within 1 inch of the knight and it's useless.
Without 'mental onslaught' I just invest in more 'power saws' and screen clearing units.
This counter to Mind Control is not new, Its been a thing since forever.
The Faq just spelled it out for all the people that didn't realise it.
True, but now it's almost useless. Together with the 'psionic blast' GSC got two terrible sucky 'smite' powers.
It still has the subtle distinction of being able to target specific models rather than units, so it still offers some utility against armies that embed unique models in their units (any squad leaders, champions, icons, special/heavy weapons, etc.). Being able to knock out a Reaper Chaincannon from a CSM unit or a Nob in a boys unit can potentially save your squads some trouble and such models tend to have lower leadership than single-model units. Against multi-wound models embedded in squads even one wound is sufficient to force the opponent to allocate wounds to them in the following shooting or assault phases.
I don't think the power was ever intended to be used as a counter to titanic models via an endless damage loop. With the current FAQ changes it is still slightly better than the Harlequin version since it can still be tilted in the caster's favor rather than being a straight roll off.
It's still really good. There is no guarantee to roll that 6. Trust me, I have fished for 6's in the past myself But yea, sometimes they will roll it in one toss and other times it will still devastate a model. It's much more fair now, at least they have a shot.
Strat_N8 wrote:
It still has the subtle distinction of being able to target specific models rather than units, so it still offers some utility against armies that embed unique models in their units (any squad leaders, champions, icons, special/heavy weapons, etc.). Being able to knock out a Reaper Chaincannon from a CSM unit or a Nob in a boys unit can potentially save your squads some trouble and such models tend to have lower leadership than single-model units. Against multi-wound models embedded in squads even one wound is sufficient to force the opponent to allocate wounds to them in the following shooting or assault phases.
Problem is, no reason to invest in extra LD buffs/debuffs because the power is to unpredictable now. If I bring a third psyker I might give it 'mental onslaught' just to see if the enemy Hell hound (LD 7) simply sucks at trowing 6's, and I got a clamavus (+1 LD) anyway. Problem is that my psykers use the familiar first turn and after that the only can cast a single power each. I got a full close combat GSC army and 'might from beyond' + 'mass hypnosis' always get's used before anything else. So yes, I might still have it and use it in very specific cases but I don't see it happening 99% of the time and that makes it almost useless.
I mostly play 1250 pts games and i had a idea for this kinda list to give some shooting at the first turn and from second turn on striking in units.
Basically Primus and Jackal Alphus buff up Neophytes for hitting on 2s and rerolling 1s, while Mortars try to clean out screening units.
Brood brothers can screen and run around taking objectives.
Second turn onward Acolytes and Abberants will strike in and kill something, while kellermorph annoys characters.
Atalan jackals will come in 3 inches away and hopefully kill something.
Araablane wrote: I mostly play 1250 pts games and i had a idea for this kinda list to give some shooting at the first turn and from second turn on striking in units.
Basically Primus and Jackal Alphus buff up Neophytes for hitting on 2s and rerolling 1s, while Mortars try to clean out screening units.
Brood brothers can screen and run around taking objectives.
Second turn onward Acolytes and Abberants will strike in and kill something, while kellermorph annoys characters.
Atalan jackals will come in 3 inches away and hopefully kill something.
When you talk about Neophytes hitting on 2's, re-rolling 1's are you talking about shooting or close combat?
re-read the Primus. His +1 to hit is for the Fight phase only.
Araablane wrote: I mostly play 1250 pts games and i had a idea for this kinda list to give some shooting at the first turn and from second turn on striking in units.
Basically Primus and Jackal Alphus buff up Neophytes for hitting on 2s and rerolling 1s, while Mortars try to clean out screening units.
Brood brothers can screen and run around taking objectives.
Second turn onward Acolytes and Abberants will strike in and kill something, while kellermorph annoys characters.
Atalan jackals will come in 3 inches away and hopefully kill something.
* Primus only gives +1 to hit in the fight phase so how do you get a 2+ to hit?
* Cult Icon on the neophytes is also reroll 1 in the fight phase, and too expensive for my taste. Use these 30 points to pimp your magus into a patriarch.
* I think you use a lot of CP with the broodsurge detachment for simply having an assault bonus with one unit. Rock saws OR abberants use perfect ambush and the other gains the assault bonus. I would rather get a clamavus + cult of the four armed emperor and use a regular d6 reroll to help that second unit to get in close combat.
* Why the Vial broodsurge Relic? It gives a model a bonus, but only if the iconward is within 3 inch in the fight phase. +1 LD is helpful with no patriarch around put like I said before, switch that magus for a patriarch and you got another great and fast close combat unit and a better relic. +1 strength iconward or a croughling for example.
Also, that +1 LD is only for the same cult so the bladed cog neophytes don't benefit from that.
Can't say that I see a bright future for GS in the light of the faq. Castellan is dead, which means that imperium will shift to three crusaders instead, which is worse for us. Onslaught got nerfed and fliers didn't suffer all that much, so aeldar with 3-6 planes is still going to be an absolute hell, since we have no real way of damaging them. Tau are going to have a surge of popularity, and just overwatch us to death, with the added benefit of onslaught not being able to snipe riptides anymore.
I don't expect a lot of lists to replace a 600pt knight with 1500 points of knights.
I would rather expect 1 Crusader to replace 1 Castellan and just 200 pts of other Guard stuff.
GSC's answer to flyers has been to have ~150 models on the table that they simply can't deal with and now its harder to move block you from getting to the few actual boots on the ground.
A lot of the problems here come from playing ITC instead of actual GW missions so having units to claim objectives is barely needed when the entire game is just about killing gak.
Not being able to remove a Riptide per turn indeed hurts the Tau matchup a lot but there is no denying that MO was completely stupid and could not continue like that.
Shogun, im going to be honest... im kinda slowed Version 2, thats legal But here is the question, as i understand i need to have 50% of units and points on the table with the new rules, right?
Same idea as before but relying on units coming from underground and killing most things.
Added broodcoven because i dont see the reason not to, Jackal alphus without anyone to buff seems pointless.
Ordana wrote: I don't expect a lot of lists to replace a 600pt knight with 1500 points of knights.
I would rather expect 1 Crusader to replace 1 Castellan and just 200 pts of other Guard stuff.
I don't think the Castellan is going away. 100 points increase is peanuts to Astra Militarum. A 4++ save is still pretty good on a platform with that kind of firepower/toughness/wounds.
Ordana wrote: I don't expect a lot of lists to replace a 600pt knight with 1500 points of knights.
I would rather expect 1 Crusader to replace 1 Castellan and just 200 pts of other Guard stuff.
I don't think the Castellan is going away. 100 points increase is peanuts to Astra Militarum. A 4++ save is still pretty good on a platform with that kind of firepower/toughness/wounds.
I agree, there aren't a lot of replacements with the same firepower for 700 points that you can just slot into almost any Imperial Army with a spare detachment slot.
Ordana wrote:
GSC's answer to flyers has been to have ~150 models on the table that they simply can't deal with and now its harder to move block you from getting to the few actual boots on the ground.
True, but that means you need to invest in lot's of infantry and also need a few hard-hitters to get the most out of 'perfect ambush'. So you need big acolyte units and/or abberants.
Ordana wrote:A lot of the problems here come from playing ITC instead of actual GW missions so having units to claim objectives is barely needed when the entire game is just about killing gak.
True, a decent enemy player know's how to bubblewrap and then the GSC player needs to sacrifice units to get to the 'core'. Hard to get a big win in that kind of tournament mission setting. Lots of infantry with close combat is also time consuming.
Araablane wrote:Shogun, im going to be honest... im kinda slowed Version 2, thats legal But here is the question, as i understand i need to have 50% of units and points on the table with the new rules, right?
Same idea as before but relying on units coming from underground and killing most things.
Added broodcoven because i dont see the reason not to, Jackal alphus without anyone to buff seems pointless.
I already don't like to invest in to much characters at 2000p, but at 1250 it is even more 'out of balance' when you field 2 battalions/4 HQ's + the elite characters. I know you want to have the command points to do stuff but at 1250 points it really gets expensive instead of getting more boys(or girls! Lets be politically correct here..we got girl heads now! ). For example; I would rather have another big abberants unit instead of the magus + primus + kellermorph. If you remove these units and take one battalion + battle brother spearhead with platoon commander + 3x mortar teams it gives you more points to invest in more models. Take the +d3 CP stratagem and you got: 3 + 5 +1 + d3 command points. Maybe another small detachment but that depends on the units you got (vanguard or outrider).
Yes, now i see what was wrong in my games, i had too many characters that did not do anything but i like bikers demolition charges but is it worth it if they are hitting on +4s?
I usually used rusted claw with them but i dont see the point in using a detachment for only one tactic.
Otherwise if i take the bikes and 2 rock saws out, i could add in 20 guys with hand flamers making sure i can melt infantry.
Im keeping Kellermorph because i just love it when they melt some character Also, really big thanks for helping, im doing this so i can focus what to paint first.
Those of you who have run Aberants, how many do you find gets the job done? I'm looking to run a saw-hybrid unit and a Aberant unit at 2k, with the goal of having both able to drop into a heavy target such as a knight. I've never ran them before and would like to hear what has worked for everybody.
Gordoape wrote: Aberrants are great at tanking stomp damage.
That is a good point. Assuming C4AE and Primus dropping with them, will 7 of them with hammers in the special detachment reliably counter a Knight? Will 6?
I still feel like the obsession with killing knights is pretty myopic, we are a horde based deep striking army so basically already extremely well positioned against knights. The only knight that really kills hordes efficiently is the Gallant and you can seriously mess up its positioning.
But if you are set on a fast way to kill them I would probably look to Stephen Fore’s rock saw acolytes. I’m sure hammer aberrants can do it well too.
babelfish wrote: Those of you who have run Aberants, how many do you find gets the job done? I'm looking to run a saw-hybrid unit and a Aberant unit at 2k, with the goal of having both able to drop into a heavy target such as a knight. I've never ran them before and would like to hear what has worked for everybody.
If you got the acolytes then you cannot go wrong with 20 acolytes + 8 saws + icon in a broodsurge detachment. With a primus (who could also give one target reroll 1 to wound) and the broodsurge stratagem the saws hit on a 2+ with reroll 1 and also wound on a 2+ with reroll 1 (against a single target).
I always pick a patriarch with croughling because I need that 'might from beyond' to work. 20 models also gives you the opportunity to assault two juicy units deployed far apart from each other. You can divide the saws into 2x4 and hit two targets very hard. Very flexible because you can congaline 20 acolytes and pick two targets that are deployed far away from each other. With all the upgrades 4 saws could do 24 wounds to a knight. Add a few rending claws and you drop two knights in one go. You could also cast 'mass hypnosis' on one knight and hit that one with 3 saws. He will survive but that one probably hit's on a 6 next turn making him almost useless.
Abberants are more build to survive and everything you invest in them is to make sure the keep on bashing. For example; drop em at a flank with perfect ambush, kill stuff, lurk in the shadows for survival. Move + advance and cast psychic stimulus and assault the next target. Also with twisted helix the get an advance bonus and the got a nice reach. Keep an iconward close and with a stratagem the got a 4+ feel no pain with reroll 1.
Gordoape wrote: I still feel like the obsession with killing knights is pretty myopic, we are a horde based deep striking army so basically already extremely well positioned against knights. The only knight that really kills hordes efficiently is the Gallant and you can seriously mess up its positioning.
But if you are set on a fast way to kill them I would probably look to Stephen Fore’s rock saw acolytes. I’m sure hammer aberrants can do it well too.
I was saying this a while back but got frustrated with the focus on knights. Knights are easy IF you can get to them.
The army has the biggest issues with cheap screens since all our work gets done in assault, and none of our things have fly, which is compounded further that we need to rely on reserve deployment to be mobile. I've dabbled with transports but ours are incredibly easy to kill, luckily they are cheap (points) but unfortunately they are expensive as hell financially.
Any cheap screen will keep our heavy hitters back and IDC how many detachment buffs or charge bonuses you have because all they need to do is picket line and keep their damage dealers several inches back. Not hard to do when you have until turn 2. I have seen and had the most luck against players unfamiliar with GSC, as soon as they realize all they need to do is screen back and shoot the biggest threat for the next turn it becomes as really tough game for us. One I think we still do OK with in the right format, but as I have said before in ITC or killpoint heavy formats it's real tough.
And in before someone says mortars again... IDK maybe I am the exception but mortars kind of suck at screen removal. They are dirt cheap, easy to plug into any list and pay for themselves over the course of a game, but they suck hard at removing large units turn 1. It's even worse now that you max 3 teams after the FAQ, which also killed large BB squads getting orders (saw this one coming).
^100%! I will be bringing a vulture for this. Probably one won’t end up being enough. But killing infantry definitely strikes me as a bigger concern than killing heavy guns. Largely because, not only are screens an issue but infantry tends to be really good at killing us.
Any cheap screen will keep our heavy hitters back and IDC how many detachment buffs or charge bonuses you have because all they need to do is picket line and keep their damage dealers several inches back. Not hard to do when you have until turn 2. I have seen and had the most luck against players unfamiliar with GSC, as soon as they realize all they need to do is screen back and shoot the biggest threat for the next turn it becomes as really tough game for us. One I think we still do OK with in the right format, but as I have said before in ITC or killpoint heavy formats it's real tough..
This is the biggest challenge,yes. Mortars are only there because you need to deploy some units on the field and the just might as well contribute at removing screen. Then you got 4 other options;
- Second turn 'lying in wait' dropping acolytes with handflamers. I pick 20 with 15 handflamers and 5 demolition charges. The die the next turn but not before the remove a lot of screen and/or damage a vehicle/MC.
- second turn 'perfect ambush' 8 jackals + 2 incinerators. And shoot with perfect ambush, and shoot again in the shooting phase. I play rusted claw so I could move them away after the shoot, with the stratagem. If you pair them up with the hand flamers acolytes you could punch a whole in the bubblewrap and then drop the acolytes deeper in. this could help with the demolition charge or claiming objectives.
- first turn, I reserve 140 points for summoning and I could drop in 20 neophytes and start shooting. I would only do this if I needed the neophytes to push back the enemy line by blocking their movement.
- Option 4: get specific brood brothers anti infantry units. Vultures, wyverns etc..
Badablack wrote: You can turn 1 a kelermorph with telepathic summons, they’ll clear screens with the best of them.
Thats not a great deal. Against Toughness 3 you can get the same result with 15 broodbrother infantry (also 60p), Against toughness 4 I would invest more points and go full neophytes or a jackal unit with incinerator.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Edit: btw, have been reading about atalan jackals. Damn, a big unit with 12 bikes and 3 incinerators wolfquads could really hit that screen hard. With shotgun + autogun each regular bike shoots with 4x S3 attacks. Add the incinerators and with 'perfect ambush' you could really punch a hole and let the broodsurge detachment drop closer. DAMN IT! I didn't want to buy more stuff!!
Edit: btw, have been reading about atalan jackals. Damn, a big unit with 12 bikes and 3 incinerators wolfquads could really hit that screen hard. With shotgun + autogun each regular bike shoots with 4x S3 attacks. Add the incinerators and with 'perfect ambush' you could really punch a hole and let the broodsurge detachment drop closer. DAMN IT! I didn't want to buy more stuff!!
Only the squad leader gets the autogun, but even still a max squad puts out a fair amount of anti-infantry firepower. I've run squads of 8 bikes/2 quads as my vanguard chaff clearers and they have generally performed well against common fodder when combined with the Alphus's +1 to hit (which they get an extended range on).
I've been wanting to experiment with a small Vanguard module consisting of an Alphus, 2x medium-to-large squads of Jackals and a squad of 2x Ridgerunners to sling them up the board turn 1 ala Swarmlord. Just need to finish building the required models. Would make for an easy drop-in for an ambush centric list and the total point cost is slightly under the popular Swarmy + 'Stealer combo.
mightymconeshot wrote: Can someone summarize all of our specalized detachments. I don't have the Vigilius books and if I can avoid buying them I want to.
There are 2. But if you want to use them in a game, you're going to want to get a copy of the rules.
I understand that. I am not trying to get around buying them, but is there just the two in the first Vigilus book? Or did we get more in the second one?
mightymconeshot wrote: I understand that. I am not trying to get around buying them, but is there just the two in the first Vigilus book? Or did we get more in the second one?
mightymconeshot wrote: Can someone summarize all of our specalized detachments. I don't have the Vigilius books and if I can avoid buying them I want to.
They're two very specific builds really.
Anointed Throng is Aberrant focused, lets you have an Abominant with a +1" charge range for aberrants within 6" WL trait and has strats that let you reroll 1s to wound or fight before dying. Does nothing to units in the detachment that aren't Aberrants or Abominants
Deliverance Broodsurge is a transport focused one, works on Aco/Neophytes, Goliath trucks (NOT Rock Grinders) and Iconwards. WL trait is reroll charges within 6" if you're one of the former. Strats for +1 to wound on the charge and disembark after moving (at risk).
As an add on to some other army, seems expensive now you don't need every last LD bonus (Broodsurge had one option to give LD bonus to units within 6" of warlord) to trigger infinite mental onslaught. It's 2CP chasing diminishing returns to get Cot4AE Aberrants +3 to charge rather than +2. Or to Rhino-rush with a unit of acolytes.
Worth getting if you're going heavily in that direction already though - Cot4AE level ambush to Twisted Helix monstrosities etc.
I'm kinda confused - as per the latest FAQ, can we no longer use voice of command to give our brood brothers squads from Astra Militarum Detachements orders?
Ruvich wrote: I'm kinda confused - as per the latest FAQ, can we no longer use voice of command to give our brood brothers squads from Astra Militarum Detachements orders?
You can't issue orders to Brood Brothers squads taken from codex GSC (Brood Brothers or Brood Brothers Heavy Weapon Teams). Astra Militarum infantry with the Brood Brothers faction keyword are still eligible to receive orders.
Ruvich wrote: I'm kinda confused - as per the latest FAQ, can we no longer use voice of command to give our brood brothers squads from Astra Militarum Detachements orders?
You can't issue orders to Brood Brothers squads taken from codex GSC (Brood Brothers or Brood Brothers Heavy Weapon Teams). Astra Militarum infantry with the Brood Brothers faction keyword are still eligible to receive orders.
But only Company Commanders can order Infantry squads, and not the previously popular choice of Tempestor Primes.
Ruvich wrote: I'm kinda confused - as per the latest FAQ, can we no longer use voice of command to give our brood brothers squads from Astra Militarum Detachements orders?
You can't issue orders to Brood Brothers squads taken from codex GSC (Brood Brothers or Brood Brothers Heavy Weapon Teams). Astra Militarum infantry with the Brood Brothers faction keyword are still eligible to receive orders.
But only Company Commanders can order Infantry squads, and not the previously popular choice of Tempestor Primes.
Tough News, guess I'll shed some lonely tears. Thank you all guys for the answers :/
Hi Guys, I'm mainly a chaos player but I'm taking my GSC out for a spin while painting the Black Legion... and I'm having a terrible time.
Basically the problem is as Red Corsair said: I got no issue killing big vehicles, custodes and such, the problem is when the adversary screens all the shooting units with elite troops like marines or necron warriors. I got to spend 3 cp for the perfect ambush, endure overwatch/auspex scan, the charge might still fail, you are not even sure you will kill the screen, the enemy will butcher the acolytes in their shooting... and even if you endure all of this you have to face units that can easily fall back and shoot and unchargable infantry on top of ruins. It seems to me that the mechanics of CC make it impossible for us to win against a skilled player. The obvious answer would be to employ some shooting, but Leman Russes and infantry do not deal meaningful damage in just a couple of turns.
I still win the majority of my games, but every match is so complicated, weary and frustrating.
Btw this is my best list, please tell me I'm making mistakes. I would love to have suggestions even just to simplify the playstyle.
Acolyte Iconward [3 PL, -1CP, 53pts]: Icon of the Cult Ascendant, Stratagem: Field Commander, Warlord Trait: Augur of the Insurgent
Rules: Cult Ambush, Unquestioning Loyalty
Primus [4 PL, 75pts]: Bonesword
Rules: Cult Ambush, Unquestioning Loyalty
+ Troops +
Acolyte Hybrids [9 PL, 145pts]: Cult Icon
Rules: Cult Ambush, Unquestioning Loyalty
11x Acolyte Hybrid
Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw
Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw
Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw
Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife
Acolyte Hybrids [9 PL, 145pts]: Cult Icon
Rules: Cult Ambush, Unquestioning Loyalty
11x Acolyte Hybrid
Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw
Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw
Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw
Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife
Rusted Claws gives me an incredible survivability, that I really enjoy. Basically I try to remove screens and kill difficult stuff to manage in CC with Neophytes and LR, second turn I drop all the CC units, or leave one of the big Acolytes for the 3rd round sometimes.
You have enough anti-armor that you can probably afford to drop some of them to make room for more anti-infantry tools. The battlecannons on the Russes for instance could be replaced with Exterminator Autocannons (8 shots vs 2d6 shots) and the hull Lascannon exchanged for another Heavy Bolter, while the Neophytes could be reconfigured with Seismic Cannons or 2x Heavy Stubbers + an extra Grenade Launcher in place of the Mining Laser.
You might also want to consider swapping out the Nexos and some odds and ends to make room for an Alphus. Her accuracy boost is a huge asset for eliminating screens at range, wereas I have yet to have a Nexos make a meaningful contribution (regen nerf really hurts his utility).
I need battle cannons and lasers to kill marine screens and flying vehicles, but you right, now nexos will give me 3 cp at best, so maybe a clamavus could help...
Strat_N8 wrote: You have enough anti-armor that you can probably afford to drop some of them to make room for more anti-infantry tools. The battlecannons on the Russes for instance could be replaced with Exterminator Autocannons (8 shots vs 2d6 shots) and the hull Lascannon exchanged for another Heavy Bolter, while the Neophytes could be reconfigured with Seismic Cannons or 2x Heavy Stubbers + an extra Grenade Launcher in place of the Mining Laser.
You might also want to consider swapping out the Nexos and some odds and ends to make room for an Alphus. Her accuracy boost is a huge asset for eliminating screens at range, wereas I have yet to have a Nexos make a meaningful contribution (regen nerf really hurts his utility).
Cult has something real good to make exterminators worth it? Because for IG they are one of the worst russes out there. For anti infantry the punisher does lot better. And it's not like battle cannon is bad. -2 and S8 means wounding on 2+ vs T4 infantry.
DarklyDreaming wrote:I need battle cannons and lasers to kill marine screens and flying vehicles, but you right, now nexos will give me 3 cp at best, so maybe a clamavus could help...
That's fair. I'd still strongly suggest an Alphus. She is a huge boon to Neophyte offensive capabilities and is fairly mobile (no heavy penalty with Rusted Claw too).
tneva82 wrote:
Cult has something real good to make exterminators worth it? Because for IG they are one of the worst russes out there. For anti infantry the punisher does lot better. And it's not like battle cannon is bad. -2 and S8 means wounding on 2+ vs T4 infantry.
I was mostly just looking for areas he could swap something out for more anti-infantry without altering his list too much. GSC can't take a Punisher-in codex.
DarklyDreaming wrote: I need battle cannons and lasers to kill marine screens and flying vehicles, but you right, now nexos will give me 3 cp at best, so maybe a clamavus could help...
14 CP at best (1 per player turn for 7 turns, unless I've lost track of the nerf bat) but realistically 3-4 CP. I second the bike sniper recommendation, she will bring you a lot of utility.
Aberrants [14 PL, 233pts]
Rules: Cult Ambush, Unquestioning Loyalty
Aberrant (Hammer): Heavy Power Hammer
7x Aberrant (Pick): 7x Power Pick
Aberrant Hypermorph (Improvised): Heavy Improvised Weapon
Automatically Appended Next Post: Now I have a 19 Acolytes just for Damage in CC, a 9 Acolytes just for screen clearing and the Magus with the Crouchling because the damned psychic powers have to go
Automatically Appended Next Post: Today was another disaster, my opponent had a 5xKastellan Robots with Belisarius, I killed one with shooting, I was not able to tarpit the unit because he had 5 units of troops to screen them and 2 turns to run freely and create a large footprint, so that unit of 4 models basically wiped all my army in his 3rd round.
The point is that when the opponent has 20 30 wounds of screen, there is no way I can clear them all to strike the real damage dealers.
Yeah, you definitely need more screen clearing. I don't think a single flamer unit is ever going to be able to effectively do the job, because players who run screens are going to run multiple units. Maybe a Vendetta or gattling tank?
Today was another disaster, my opponent had a 5xKastellan Robots with Belisarius, I killed one with shooting, I was not able to tarpit the unit because he had 5 units of troops to screen them and 2 turns to run freely and create a large footprint, so that unit of 4 models basically wiped all my army in his 3rd round.
The point is that when the opponent has 20 30 wounds of screen, there is no way I can clear them all to strike the real damage dealers.
I believe you can combine 'lying in wait' and 'perfect ambush' for one unit. If you use 20 acolytes with hand flamers the can shoot twice. That really burns any cheap bubble wrap. Do this at turn 2 and drop in the rest at turn 3. Mass hypnosis + perfect ambush rock saws/abberants will do the trick.
You got a 'bit of everything' armylist and that doesn't work with GSC. they're to fragile for that. You need to fully commit to a strategy.
DarklyDreaming wrote: Today was another disaster, my opponent had a 5xKastellan Robots with Belisarius, I killed one with shooting, I was not able to tarpit the unit because he had 5 units of troops to screen them and 2 turns to run freely and create a large footprint, so that unit of 4 models basically wiped all my army in his 3rd round.
The point is that when the opponent has 20 30 wounds of screen, there is no way I can clear them all to strike the real damage dealers.
Imagine you didn't have the Russes but instead turn 2 you drop 15 flamers and charge his screens with 2x20 acolytes. How big is the hole going to be for your turn 3 punch of the saw acolytes + abberants?
I definitely agree you are giving up too much board presence too early for your turn 2 strike to be useful. You either have to have enough on the board to shoot a threatening hard target like bots Or you have to have your own screen.
If you look at top GSC lists, they've generally gone for the latter strategy. I saw one just recently that had six double mining laser neophyte squads in a bladed cog detachment protected by an iconward, plus a Jackal alphus and 2 Achilles Ridgerunners.
Between Patriarch Aura, Iconward Aura, Bladed Cog/Rusted Claw we have all the tools to use either neophytes or brood bros as a rock solid board anchor. Our deep strike shenanigans are strong, but if you rely only on them you're very sensitive to being screened just like what happened to you there.
Hello all. Hope this is in the right place. So, after playing nids since the start of 5th then moving into Orks also, I've finally managed to get round to buying the GSC codex.
So far I've got the contents of DWverkill, 2 boxes of guardsmen, 1 heavy weapons teams box and a box of acolytes.
My questions to you though are...
Looking through the codex it seems the army is highly reliant on the characters, I'm going on a shopping spree next week so which do you think are the most important to get first? Kellermorph if im able to find it? Second magus (hopefully the awesome female one)?
Goliaths. Are rockgrinders any good? do you have any tips or setups for using them? I like the look of the model with its big drill things and the idea of one or two of them surrounded by nomad bikers Mad Max Style
Army will initially be an add on to my Nids simply because of the sheer number of models needed for a pure army.
Thought i might go for a few vehicles and bikes for a change from my nids and I really like the orange/purple rusted claw scheme.
I mostly play in a fairly relaxed semi competitive environment ( we even have an Eldar Wraithguard player who actually uses the Iyanden trait...I know, weird right?)
Now I have way more shooting: 15d6 flamers and 5d6 demolition charges, plus 36 autogun in close range and 2 grenade launchers, which all will benefit for the jackal... all to add to the 2 LR and other 20 brood brothers in the backfield. Only problem is the lack of Patriarch, which means that the Acolytes will run away, but as far is my experience, they die so horribly that it does not make a difference.
Idk I would say you have very little to actually deep strike with. 2 leman russes seems like a lot of points that could be better spent on acolytes. Even if you need to deep strike to kill part of a screen you should have more waves coming.
Scotsman and Ordana are right, I should drop the Russes and focus even more on infantry, the problem is that I have already like 40 Acolytes and 30 Neophytes (plus cultist that I can prox as brood brothers) and I don't want to buy or paint more, it's just too much
DarklyDreaming wrote: Scotsman and Ordana are right, I should drop the Russes and focus even more on infantry, the problem is that I have already like 40 Acolytes and 30 Neophytes (plus cultist that I can prox as brood brothers) and I don't want to buy or paint more, it's just too much
If a horde of bodies is not what your looking for have you considered going heavier into Guard?
A small GSC detachment for Acolytes and more Guard in a detachment so you can get the better LR variants (punishers are much better to clear screens), Tank Commanders, Orders for a bunch of infantry squads ect.
Tho then the question starts to creep in, why not just play Guard?
To me GSC is about putting 100+ screaming hybrids in the enemies face and tearing him pieces. And you can do that without anything bigger then a guardsman. So all those big guys your opponent brought are stuck shooting 7 point models.
I sympathize on the buying/painting models thing but ultimately I think GSC is a horde army to be competitive. Both of our allies are best as hordes too.
I started with 45 acolytes and quickly realized I need at least 60. Around 80 is probably ideal honesty.
Folks keep failing to understand the major issue of timing coupled with area control. The more you lean on acolytes from reserve (the only way your making them work) the less table presence you have. Which means they can screen them back further and with cheap garbage because nothing in our book shoots screens down remotely efficiently.
Flamer acolytes are not good at removing screens, they cost WAY to many CP, are not that cheap and only have range to hit the front layer of screening before dying easily. Do you guys seriously play opponents with single layers of screening?
One of my main opponents plays admech, rangers are filthy cheap at 7ppm and in mars have a 3+ save from shooting and essentially have 30" range bolters. It's a nightmare removing these guys from range and even assaulting your just trading 7 point dudes for 7 point dudes. Meanwhile dakka bots were basically designed to shut our army down. Long range, insane output, and AP-2 with ignore cover meaning we don't get saves anywhere. One unit of 6 is only 660 lol. They can shoot 108 times with full rerolls next to cawl. They will scrub 68 guys a turn. 81 if they wrath of mars. With cawl they only spent 850. That leaves them 1150 to spend on other things, so engine seer and 50 rangers for 380. They still have 770 they can use on any number of things. All those guys BTW will have a 3+ save against those hand flamers, they can also auspex scan the unit and murder half of it before it does anything.
Red Corsair wrote: Flamer acolytes are not good at removing screens, they cost WAY to many CP, are not that cheap and only have range to hit the front layer of screening before dying easily. Do you guys seriously play opponents with single layers of screening?
Their good at removing cheap bubble wrap and I would only spend that many CP's if I knew it would give the rest of my army the opportunity to push thru and win the day. But this only works if you 'go big' and that doesn't work with a 'little bit of everything' GSC armylist. GSC-army is not an easy army and you need to be smart to pull out a win against the top lists.
Turn 2. Let's say you 'perfect ambush' 20 brood brothers infantry + deep strike an acolyte rocksaw unit in cover behind the brood brothers. 20 brood brothers assault bubble wrap and tri-pod a model, and lock it. Next turn the enemy tries to shoot at the acolytes but then you cast 'lurk in the shadows'. The cannot target the unit because it's not the closest. This gives you options next turn. Maybe move them + advance and use psychic stimulus + mass hypnosis to assault the bots or something.
One of my main opponents plays admech, rangers are filthy cheap at 7ppm and in mars have a 3+ save from shooting and essentially have 30" range bolters. It's a nightmare removing these guys from range and even assaulting your just trading 7 point dudes for 7 point dudes. Meanwhile dakka bots were basically designed to shut our army down. Long range, insane output, and AP-2 with ignore cover meaning we don't get saves anywhere. One unit of 6 is only 660 lol. They can shoot 108 times with full rerolls next to cawl. They will scrub 68 guys a turn. 81 if they wrath of mars. With cawl they only spent 850. That leaves them 1150 to spend on other things, so engine seer and 50 rangers for 380. They still have 770 they can use on any number of things. All those guys BTW will have a 3+ save against those hand flamers, they can also auspex scan the unit and murder half of it before it does anything.
Don't see a lot of lists with 50 rangers + bots. The simply die against any knight list. But even so, 20 acolytes that perfect ambush + lying in wait shoots with 20xd6 shots that auto hit. First layer dies against that kind of shooting. If the opponent really castle up in a corner, you even might just drop down 20 models every turn with 'lying a wait' to simply keep the enemy in its place and go for the other objectives. Simply put a unit 'back in the shadows' in turn 3,4 etc.. and drop them in next turn to harass the enemies army with 'lying in wait'. It's crazy gak like that that gives GSC a win.
Red Corsair wrote: Folks keep failing to understand the major issue of timing coupled with area control. The more you lean on acolytes from reserve (the only way your making them work) the less table presence you have. Which means they can screen them back further and with cheap garbage because nothing in our book shoots screens down remotely efficiently.
Flamer acolytes are not good at removing screens, they cost WAY to many CP, are not that cheap and only have range to hit the front layer of screening before dying easily. Do you guys seriously play opponents with single layers of screening?
One of my main opponents plays admech, rangers are filthy cheap at 7ppm and in mars have a 3+ save from shooting and essentially have 30" range bolters. It's a nightmare removing these guys from range and even assaulting your just trading 7 point dudes for 7 point dudes. Meanwhile dakka bots were basically designed to shut our army down. Long range, insane output, and AP-2 with ignore cover meaning we don't get saves anywhere. One unit of 6 is only 660 lol. They can shoot 108 times with full rerolls next to cawl. They will scrub 68 guys a turn. 81 if they wrath of mars. With cawl they only spent 850. That leaves them 1150 to spend on other things, so engine seer and 50 rangers for 380. They still have 770 they can use on any number of things. All those guys BTW will have a 3+ save against those hand flamers, they can also auspex scan the unit and murder half of it before it does anything.
That is exactly my problem, I try to focus on the worst opponent, so I should be able to face everybody... but what is the solution then?
Normally, whenever I see anyone talk about this item they reference it as if it was only worthwhile on the Sanctus. And since it's only a minor upgrade to his dagger it's generally discounted.
But what about giving it to the Kelermorph instead? Granted, he's 'only' WS3+, but he'll still have 4 attacks with it and it takes him from S3 AP0 D1 to S3 AP-2 D2 that wounds almost everything on a 2+ and inflicts an additional d3 Mortal Wounds to any character damaged by it.
Given that the Kelermorph needs to be within charge range just to shoot his pistol, it seems useful for him to also be good at melee.
In any other army I’d say that would be worth the increase in his killing power, especially since he’s pretty survivable with cult loyalty, but GSC have so many good relics that given the choice I’d rather run something else.
Badablack wrote: In any other army I’d say that would be worth the increase in his killing power, especially since he’s pretty survivable with cult loyalty, but GSC have so many good relics that given the choice I’d rather run something else.
That is exactly my problem, I try to focus on the worst opponent, so I should be able to face everybody... but what is the solution then?
Create an army with a specific strategy in mind AND got the skills to be flexible if needed, and buy the models for that. After that you need to practice, practice, practice. Do you act like a scalpel and cut away at an army and focus on turn 3+, or do you ram your army down their throat and lose half, and still win the day?
I prefer an army that gives the enemy nothing valuable to shoot at turn 1 or 2 meanwhile I'am cutting away at the screen and drop in turn 3.
I've been actually thinking about adding a Neurothrope + 20 devourer gaunts + 3 raveners. I would make them ymgarl and the neuro + devourers can deepstrike along with the raveners (stratagem). Neuro cast 'horror' and 20 devourers can shoot double with stratagem. Thats 120, S4 shots with reroll 1 to hit. Add a GSC psyker with croughling that cast 'mass hypnosis' and those bots got a -2 to hit (+horror).
That is exactly my problem, I try to focus on the worst opponent, so I should be able to face everybody... but what is the solution then?
Create an army with a specific strategy in mind AND got the skills to be flexible if needed, and buy the models for that. After that you need to practice, practice, practice. Do you act like a scalpel and cut away at an army and focus on turn 3+, or do you ram your army down their throat and lose half, and still win the day?
I prefer an army that gives the enemy nothing valuable to shoot at turn 1 or 2 meanwhile I'am cutting away at the screen and drop in turn 3.
I've been actually thinking about adding a Neurothrope + 20 devourer gaunts + 3 raveners. I would make them ymgarl and the neuro + devourers can deepstrike along with the raveners (stratagem). Neuro cast 'horror' and 20 devourers can shoot double with stratagem. Thats 120, S4 shots with reroll 1 to hit. Add a GSC psyker with croughling that cast 'mass hypnosis' and those bots got a -2 to hit (+horror).
You can do the same with Red Terror and save couple of points ...
That is exactly my problem, I try to focus on the worst opponent, so I should be able to face everybody... but what is the solution then?
Create an army with a specific strategy in mind AND got the skills to be flexible if needed, and buy the models for that. After that you need to practice, practice, practice. Do you act like a scalpel and cut away at an army and focus on turn 3+, or do you ram your army down their throat and lose half, and still win the day?
I prefer an army that gives the enemy nothing valuable to shoot at turn 1 or 2 meanwhile I'am cutting away at the screen and drop in turn 3.
I've been actually thinking about adding a Neurothrope + 20 devourer gaunts + 3 raveners. I would make them ymgarl and the neuro + devourers can deepstrike along with the raveners (stratagem). Neuro cast 'horror' and 20 devourers can shoot double with stratagem. Thats 120, S4 shots with reroll 1 to hit. Add a GSC psyker with croughling that cast 'mass hypnosis' and those bots got a -2 to hit (+horror).
You can do the same with Red Terror and save couple of points ...
Deploying 21 models might be a bit tight within 3 inch of a single model, but it could probably work.. Would be fun to swallow a smash captain whole.... "you look expensive and tasty!!!" "GLOEB"..
That is exactly my problem, I try to focus on the worst opponent, so I should be able to face everybody... but what is the solution then?
Create an army with a specific strategy in mind AND got the skills to be flexible if needed, and buy the models for that. After that you need to practice, practice, practice. Do you act like a scalpel and cut away at an army and focus on turn 3+, or do you ram your army down their throat and lose half, and still win the day?
I prefer an army that gives the enemy nothing valuable to shoot at turn 1 or 2 meanwhile I'am cutting away at the screen and drop in turn 3.
I've been actually thinking about adding a Neurothrope + 20 devourer gaunts + 3 raveners. I would make them ymgarl and the neuro + devourers can deepstrike along with the raveners (stratagem). Neuro cast 'horror' and 20 devourers can shoot double with stratagem. Thats 120, S4 shots with reroll 1 to hit. Add a GSC psyker with croughling that cast 'mass hypnosis' and those bots got a -2 to hit (+horror).
You can do the same with Red Terror and save couple of points ...
Deploying 21 models might be a bit tight within 3 inch of a single model, but it could probably work.. Would be fun to swallow a smash captain whole.... "you look expensive and tasty!!!" "GLOEB"..
Can't use the the Red Terror. The Jorgmundr stratagem specifies Trygon/Trygon Prime, Raveners, Mawlocks. Also, the bonus from having 20 'gaunts is re-roll 1's to wound, not to hit.
I run the devilgant drop on a regular basis. I strongly recommend the following build:
Jorgmundr Battalion
Tyranid Prime, Deathspitter, Twin Boneswords
Neurothrope
Ripper x3
Ripper x3
Termagant x20+, all with Devourers
Ravener x 3, 3x Deathspitter
Raveners tunnel. Prime and 'gaunts tunnel (1CP eatch). Neurothrope can tunnel (1CP), or stay on the field. Rippers tunnel for objective grabbing, or deploy as screens/objective campers. You can throw Rending Claws on the Raveners if you have the spare six points. If your points tight you can swap the Neurothrope for a second Prime. So long as you have more than 20, the number of 'gaunts doesn't matter all that much. More is better, but there isn't anything meaningful that 30 can kill that 20 can't kill.
babelfish wrote: Can't use the the Red Terror. The Jorgmundr stratagem specifies Trygon/Trygon Prime, Raveners, Mawlocks.
Yea, red terror got the ravener keyword but the stratagem specifies the 'name of the unit' so you are probably right.
babelfish wrote: Also, the bonus from having 20 'gaunts is re-roll 1's to wound, not to hit.
Oh yea thats right..
babelfish wrote: I run the devilgant drop on a regular basis. I strongly recommend the following build:
Jorgmundr Battalion
Tyranid Prime, Deathspitter, Twin Boneswords
Neurothrope
Ripper x3
Ripper x3
Termagant x20+, all with Devourers
Ravener x 3, 3x Deathspitter
Raveners tunnel. Prime and 'gaunts tunnel (1CP eatch). Neurothrope can tunnel (1CP), or stay on the field. Rippers tunnel for objective grabbing, or deploy as screens/objective campers. You can throw Rending Claws on the Raveners if you have the spare six points. If your points tight you can swap the Neurothrope for a second Prime. So long as you have more than 20, the number of 'gaunts doesn't matter all that much. More is better, but there isn't anything meaningful that 30 can kill that 20 can't kill.
But do you pair them up with the GSC drops? Or do you drop them in turn 2 and let the GSC drop turn 3 when the shield is 'devoured'? If you drop everything turn two you need to take a full round of shooting/assault from the enemy before you can assault. Then you could just as well 'lying in wait' hand flamers and 'perfect ambush' a close combat unit to remove the shield.
If you drop the tyranids turn 2 and remove the shield to make way for your GSC units turn 3, then all the tyranids get shot of the field. Thats an expensive 'shield remover'.
shogun wrote:
Turn 2. Let's say you 'perfect ambush' 20 brood brothers infantry + deep strike an acolyte rocksaw unit in cover behind the brood brothers. 20 brood brothers assault bubble wrap and tri-pod a model, and lock it. Next turn the enemy tries to shoot at the acolytes but then you cast 'lurk in the shadows'. The cannot target the unit because it's not the closest.
Keep in mind that Lurk in the Shadows requires the targeted unit be entirely within or on a piece of terrain. It can't be used otherwise.
For what it is worth I'm not sure if pure foot horde is going to be the most competitive list going forward, it just doesn't have the mobility necessary to compete against Da Jump Orks, Move! Move! Move! Guardsmen, or any flavor of Eldar. There is also the looming specter of the new Vanguard Primaris once that codex is updated and possibly the new Battlesisters. Fighting an army worth of deep strike denial is a death knell for foot hordes that rely upon ambush to get threats upfield, while sisters have traditionally been very strong at infantry killing with the volume of fire (literal and figurative) they can bring. At the very least I'd expect to see a large contingent of Jackals to offer turn-1 pressure and mobility on a semi-durable chassis.
shogun wrote:
Turn 2. Let's say you 'perfect ambush' 20 brood brothers infantry + deep strike an acolyte rocksaw unit in cover behind the brood brothers. 20 brood brothers assault bubble wrap and tri-pod a model, and lock it. Next turn the enemy tries to shoot at the acolytes but then you cast 'lurk in the shadows'. The cannot target the unit because it's not the closest.
Keep in mind that Lurk in the Shadows requires the targeted unit be entirely within or on a piece of terrain. It can't be used otherwise.
Thats why I written 'in cover'. It is just an example. A GSC army needs to play smart and see opportunities when the enemy player makes mistakes.
For what it is worth I'm not sure if pure foot horde is going to be the most competitive list going forward, it just doesn't have the mobility necessary to compete against Da Jump Orks, Move! Move! Move! Guardsmen, or any flavor of Eldar. There is also the looming specter of the new Vanguard Primaris once that codex is updated and possibly the new Battlesisters. Fighting an army worth of deep strike denial is a death knell for foot hordes that rely upon ambush to get threats upfield, while sisters have traditionally been very strong at infantry killing with the volume of fire (literal and figurative) they can bring. At the very least I'd expect to see a large contingent of Jackals to offer turn-1 pressure and mobility on a semi-durable chassis.
Yes bikes are good but you got to look at the synergy within the total army. No benefit to use bikes turn one if the rest of the army comes out of ambush turn 2/3. Then you might just as well get battle brother artillery and start shooting.
With loota's unable to 'mob up' I don't think orks are that hard to deal with. GSC are actually much more flexible at assaulting out of deep strike. But that only works if you got enough acolytes in a broodsurge detachment.
Guardsmen are good as a shield and if the enemy got 6 infantry units then it get's hard to remove them all before you can get to the juicy stuff.
Eldar tournament lists can really struggle against GSC armies but you might see a shift towards more anti-infantry shooting. 20 guardians with guide that 'forewarned' can really make a dent.
Deep strike denial and sisters anti-infantry shooting could really be difficult to deal with. But as a tournament player I got to see if these armies would do well and how likely it is to encounter them.
shogun wrote: Thats why I written 'in cover'. It is just an example. A GSC army needs to play smart and see opportunities when the enemy player makes mistakes.
Apologies, I read through the post too quickly and missed that. I've seen a lot of people who think it works like the Death Guard's Cloud of Flies, so reflexively made reference to the restriction.
Yes bikes are good but you got to look at the synergy within the total army. No benefit to use bikes turn one if the rest of the army comes out of ambush turn 2/3. Then you might just as well get battle brother artillery and start shooting.
Right. I'm mostly thinking of Jackals to offer board control. GSC infantry are relatively slow and cumbersome, so having Jackals allows the GSC player to apply early pressure to objectives or isolated enemy troops that are being used to push back deep strike space (Scouts come to mind). Towards the late game they can be sent off after distant objectives while the rest of the infantry focus on the midfield.
babelfish wrote: Can't use the the Red Terror. The Jorgmundr stratagem specifies Trygon/Trygon Prime, Raveners, Mawlocks.
Yea, red terror got the ravener keyword but the stratagem specifies the 'name of the unit' so you are probably right.
babelfish wrote: Also, the bonus from having 20 'gaunts is re-roll 1's to wound, not to hit.
Oh yea thats right..
babelfish wrote: I run the devilgant drop on a regular basis. I strongly recommend the following build:
Jorgmundr Battalion
Tyranid Prime, Deathspitter, Twin Boneswords
Neurothrope
Ripper x3
Ripper x3
Termagant x20+, all with Devourers
Ravener x 3, 3x Deathspitter
Raveners tunnel. Prime and 'gaunts tunnel (1CP eatch). Neurothrope can tunnel (1CP), or stay on the field. Rippers tunnel for objective grabbing, or deploy as screens/objective campers. You can throw Rending Claws on the Raveners if you have the spare six points. If your points tight you can swap the Neurothrope for a second Prime. So long as you have more than 20, the number of 'gaunts doesn't matter all that much. More is better, but there isn't anything meaningful that 30 can kill that 20 can't kill.
But do you pair them up with the GSC drops? Or do you drop them in turn 2 and let the GSC drop turn 3 when the shield is 'devoured'? If you drop everything turn two you need to take a full round of shooting/assault from the enemy before you can assault. Then you could just as well 'lying in wait' hand flamers and 'perfect ambush' a close combat unit to remove the shield.
If you drop the tyranids turn 2 and remove the shield to make way for your GSC units turn 3, then all the tyranids get shot of the field. Thats an expensive 'shield remover'.
Basically, yes. I was running kraken Genestealers + Hive Guard and devilgaunt, and I pretty much just swapped the Kraken for GSC.
Turn 1 I shoot Hive Guard at things. Turn two I drop the gaunts. Turn 3 I drop saw Hybrids and Aberants. If I get a chance for a turn 2 drop I'll take it.
The upside to the gaunts is they have great range-18" droppsz midfield can touch a lot of things. Between that, the double tap, and the 24" guns on the Raveners + Prime, the drop can clear a lot of infantry. If you run a larger squad they are also reasonably durable - 30 T3 5+ fearless bodies takes some work to clear.
The downside is that they are expensive and take a big investment to run them.
babelfish wrote: Can't use the the Red Terror. The Jorgmundr stratagem specifies Trygon/Trygon Prime, Raveners, Mawlocks.
Yea, red terror got the ravener keyword but the stratagem specifies the 'name of the unit' so you are probably right.
babelfish wrote: Also, the bonus from having 20 'gaunts is re-roll 1's to wound, not to hit.
Oh yea thats right..
babelfish wrote: I run the devilgant drop on a regular basis. I strongly recommend the following build:
Jorgmundr Battalion
Tyranid Prime, Deathspitter, Twin Boneswords
Neurothrope
Ripper x3
Ripper x3
Termagant x20+, all with Devourers
Ravener x 3, 3x Deathspitter
Raveners tunnel. Prime and 'gaunts tunnel (1CP eatch). Neurothrope can tunnel (1CP), or stay on the field. Rippers tunnel for objective grabbing, or deploy as screens/objective campers. You can throw Rending Claws on the Raveners if you have the spare six points. If your points tight you can swap the Neurothrope for a second Prime. So long as you have more than 20, the number of 'gaunts doesn't matter all that much. More is better, but there isn't anything meaningful that 30 can kill that 20 can't kill.
But do you pair them up with the GSC drops? Or do you drop them in turn 2 and let the GSC drop turn 3 when the shield is 'devoured'? If you drop everything turn two you need to take a full round of shooting/assault from the enemy before you can assault. Then you could just as well 'lying in wait' hand flamers and 'perfect ambush' a close combat unit to remove the shield.
If you drop the tyranids turn 2 and remove the shield to make way for your GSC units turn 3, then all the tyranids get shot of the field. Thats an expensive 'shield remover'.
Basically, yes. I was running kraken Genestealers + Hive Guard and devilgaunt, and I pretty much just swapped the Kraken for GSC.
Turn 1 I shoot Hive Guard at things. Turn two I drop the gaunts. Turn 3 I drop saw Hybrids and Aberants. If I get a chance for a turn 2 drop I'll take it.
The upside to the gaunts is they have great range-18" droppsz midfield can touch a lot of things. Between that, the double tap, and the 24" guns on the Raveners + Prime, the drop can clear a lot of infantry. If you run a larger squad they are also reasonably durable - 30 T3 5+ fearless bodies takes some work to clear.
The downside is that they are expensive and take a big investment to run them.
To many points for me, besides you cannot fire twice with the devourers AND Hive-guard at the same time. I would not run a prime but rather a neurothrope or even broodlord. I would probably pick two neurothropes with horror plus catalyst for the gaunts.
Also would be cool to drop in with 3 broodlords + 2 patriarchs and summon another patriarch. Protect them with gaunts/brood brothers and charge next turn. Just simply surround them with cheap infantry and keep them save. Not a game changer but could be fun and surprisingly good against certain type of lists.
Something else, I've been practising with screen removal and also got the following strategy;
It is actually pretty easy to 'tri-pod' an enemy unit with a GSC perfect ambush and I'am trying the following;
Second turn drop in 20 (cult of the 4 armed emperor) acolytes with 2 demolition charge. 2 demolition charge-models deploy at the side, at the point where you want to get behind the unit at the flank. If this is not possible because their other units in the way then shoot them to create a hole. Perfect ambush towards the enemy unit bubblewrap and use reroll if you roll a 1 or 2 and try to get close. Assault (also with reroll if needed) and try to get behind the enemy unit and put 1 demolition charge model within 1 inch at the back (not base to base) The rest of the acolytes stay outside 1 inch but surround the enemy unit at his flank. Pile in with the demolition model and tie up an enemy model in base to base and only let one other demolition model be within 1 inch of him and the rest stay's outside 1 inch. Two demolition models hit with 2 attacks each but no rending claws or cult knives so the just hit with S4 and maybe kill only 2 models. Then every acolyte model piles in and traps at least 3 remaining enemy models and that makes it impossible to run away after morale. Acolytes then kill all enemy models in the enemies turn.
Third turn: 20 acolytes with handflamers deploy first with 'lying in wait' and use 'perfect ambush' to kill the remaining shield and after that you drop in the rest of the broodsurge units and try to get to the juicy stuff. Clamavus + cult of the 4 armed emperor + broodsurge WLT reroll assault should hurt.
I feel like 200 pts worth of Mortars cleans screens the most effectively because they just keep going every. Single. Turn. They can also deal with enemy Mortars (who are otherwise extremely cost effective against us), and I think that is something easy to forget but should be taken into account. By turn 2 they've put over 40 wounds on the enemy chaff, which isn't as many as the Termagants, but also doesn't cost any CP or rely on less-than-optimal stuff like Jorm Ravener tunnels, and that 18" range can still be a little limiting once they come out, and then they are basically a suicide unit regardless. Also they can probably hold a lot of your backfield ground and objectives which is cool too.
That being said, Termagants have the virtue of dumping all their shots down at once, and Mortars can die - but generally to other Mortars who we should be happy to trade with if they move to do so, and a strong Nid soup list generally isn't something a lot of armies want to push up against either. I think they will outperform Devilgants quite nicely.
SHUPPET wrote: I feel like 200 pts worth of Mortars cleans screens the most effectively because they just keep going every. Single. Turn. They can also deal with enemy Mortars (who are otherwise extremely cost effective against us), and I think that is something easy to forget but should be taken into account. By turn 2 they've put over 40 wounds on the enemy chaff, which isn't as many as the Termagants, but also doesn't cost any CP or rely on less-than-optimal stuff like Jorm Ravener tunnels, and that 18" range can still be a little limiting once they come out, and then they are basically a suicide unit regardless. Also they can probably hold a lot of your backfield ground and objectives which is cool too.
That being said, Termagants have the virtue of dumping all their shots down at once, and Mortars can die - but generally to other Mortars who we should be happy to trade with if they move to do so, and a strong Nid soup list generally isn't something a lot of armies want to push up against either. I think they will outperform Devilgants quite nicely.
How do you get 200 points of Mortars when 3x3 mortars only cost 100?
SHUPPET wrote: I feel like 200 pts worth of Mortars cleans screens the most effectively because they just keep going every. Single. Turn. They can also deal with enemy Mortars (who are otherwise extremely cost effective against us), and I think that is something easy to forget but should be taken into account. By turn 2 they've put over 40 wounds on the enemy chaff, which isn't as many as the Termagants, but also doesn't cost any CP or rely on less-than-optimal stuff like Jorm Ravener tunnels, and that 18" range can still be a little limiting once they come out, and then they are basically a suicide unit regardless. Also they can probably hold a lot of your backfield ground and objectives which is cool too.
That being said, Termagants have the virtue of dumping all their shots down at once, and Mortars can die - but generally to other Mortars who we should be happy to trade with if they move to do so, and a strong Nid soup list generally isn't something a lot of armies want to push up against either. I think they will outperform Devilgants quite nicely.
How do you get 200 points of Mortars when 3x3 mortars only cost 100?
are we unable to take 3 GSC mortar teams and 3 allied AM ones anymore? I thought because the datasheets were different that they dodged the "Leman Russ ruling" here, but I may be wrong
Quick question, do any of you bother with Maguses if you have the option for a patriarch? As they essentially do the same thing but patriarch has a godly statline for just 50pts extra it seems like a no brainer to upgrade to me. Even just the increase in durability is decent, never mind the massive counter attack potential.
SHUPPET wrote: I feel like 200 pts worth of Mortars cleans screens the most effectively because they just keep going every. Single. Turn. They can also deal with enemy Mortars (who are otherwise extremely cost effective against us), and I think that is something easy to forget but should be taken into account. By turn 2 they've put over 40 wounds on the enemy chaff, which isn't as many as the Termagants, but also doesn't cost any CP or rely on less-than-optimal stuff like Jorm Ravener tunnels, and that 18" range can still be a little limiting once they come out, and then they are basically a suicide unit regardless. Also they can probably hold a lot of your backfield ground and objectives which is cool too.
That being said, Termagants have the virtue of dumping all their shots down at once, and Mortars can die - but generally to other Mortars who we should be happy to trade with if they move to do so, and a strong Nid soup list generally isn't something a lot of armies want to push up against either. I think they will outperform Devilgants quite nicely.
How do you get 200 points of Mortars when 3x3 mortars only cost 100?
are we unable to take 3 GSC mortar teams and 3 allied AM ones anymore? I thought because the datasheets were different that they dodged the "Leman Russ ruling" here, but I may be wrong
The last FAQ states:
Q5) Is the Cult Leman Russ datasheet from Codex: Genestealer Cults, and the Leman Russ datasheet from Codex: Astra Militarum considered to be a different datasheet for the purposes of the Organised Events guidelines? What about Cult Scout Sentinels and Scout Sentinels, Cult Armoured Sentinels and Armoured Sentinels, Brood Brothers Infantry Squads and Infantry Squads, and Brood Brothers Heavy Weapons Squads and Heavy Weapons Squads?
A5) No. If by deleting the word ‘Cult’ or ‘Brood Brothers’ from the datasheet’s title in Codex: Genestealer Cults they match another datasheet, then for the purposes of these guidelines those datasheets are considered to be the same.
The Heavy Weapons squads are specifically included. Bummer.
Red Corsair wrote: Folks keep failing to understand the major issue of timing coupled with area control. The more you lean on acolytes from reserve (the only way your making them work) the less table presence you have. Which means they can screen them back further and with cheap garbage because nothing in our book shoots screens down remotely efficiently.
Flamer acolytes are not good at removing screens, they cost WAY to many CP, are not that cheap and only have range to hit the front layer of screening before dying easily. Do you guys seriously play opponents with single layers of screening?
One of my main opponents plays admech, rangers are filthy cheap at 7ppm and in mars have a 3+ save from shooting and essentially have 30" range bolters. It's a nightmare removing these guys from range and even assaulting your just trading 7 point dudes for 7 point dudes. Meanwhile dakka bots were basically designed to shut our army down. Long range, insane output, and AP-2 with ignore cover meaning we don't get saves anywhere. One unit of 6 is only 660 lol. They can shoot 108 times with full rerolls next to cawl. They will scrub 68 guys a turn. 81 if they wrath of mars. With cawl they only spent 850. That leaves them 1150 to spend on other things, so engine seer and 50 rangers for 380. They still have 770 they can use on any number of things. All those guys BTW will have a 3+ save against those hand flamers, they can also auspex scan the unit and murder half of it before it does anything.
That is exactly my problem, I try to focus on the worst opponent, so I should be able to face everybody... but what is the solution then?
Honestly, I kind of gave up for a bit while I paint the army. I have several other armies I have been playing lately. If you find a solid answer feel free to share. I have tried massed vehicle with limited success, I think that's the solution honestly. A truck has solid firepower and is really cheap. I was filling mine with acolytes and ambushing my neophytes. It just makes more sense since neos don't care as much about being range banded from reserve and acolytes can move as close as they want (if they live).
DoomMouse wrote: Quick question, do any of you bother with Maguses if you have the option for a patriarch? As they essentially do the same thing but patriarch has a godly statline for just 50pts extra it seems like a no brainer to upgrade to me. Even just the increase in durability is decent, never mind the massive counter attack potential.
I agree. Only when you really want that broodcoven stratagem for more WL-traits then you have no choice but to take him/her. I could be playing 2x rusted claw battalion and add a cheap cult of the 4 armed emperor spearhead detachment with magus and 3 heavy mortar teams. Then I could use broodcoven and give the magus 'inscrutable cunning' WLT and get +d3 CP's and give the patriarch and primus another WLT. Cult of the 4 armed emperor detachment gives me access to the 'a plan generations in the making' stratagem and the magus could get 'mind control' and 'mass hypnosis' so doesn't conflict with rusted claw cult battalions.
Red Corsair wrote: Flamer acolytes are not good at removing screens, they cost WAY to many CP, are not that cheap and only have range to hit the front layer of screening before dying easily. Do you guys seriously play opponents with single layers of screening?
Their good at removing cheap bubble wrap and I would only spend that many CP's if I knew it would give the rest of my army the opportunity to push thru and win the day. But this only works if you 'go big' and that doesn't work with a 'little bit of everything' GSC armylist. GSC-army is not an easy army and you need to be smart to pull out a win against the top lists.
Turn 2. Let's say you 'perfect ambush' 20 brood brothers infantry + deep strike an acolyte rocksaw unit in cover behind the brood brothers. 20 brood brothers assault bubble wrap and tri-pod a model, and lock it. Next turn the enemy tries to shoot at the acolytes but then you cast 'lurk in the shadows'. The cannot target the unit because it's not the closest. This gives you options next turn. Maybe move them + advance and use psychic stimulus + mass hypnosis to assault the bots or something.
One of my main opponents plays admech, rangers are filthy cheap at 7ppm and in mars have a 3+ save from shooting and essentially have 30" range bolters. It's a nightmare removing these guys from range and even assaulting your just trading 7 point dudes for 7 point dudes. Meanwhile dakka bots were basically designed to shut our army down. Long range, insane output, and AP-2 with ignore cover meaning we don't get saves anywhere. One unit of 6 is only 660 lol. They can shoot 108 times with full rerolls next to cawl. They will scrub 68 guys a turn. 81 if they wrath of mars. With cawl they only spent 850. That leaves them 1150 to spend on other things, so engine seer and 50 rangers for 380. They still have 770 they can use on any number of things. All those guys BTW will have a 3+ save against those hand flamers, they can also auspex scan the unit and murder half of it before it does anything.
Don't see a lot of lists with 50 rangers + bots. The simply die against any knight list. But even so, 20 acolytes that perfect ambush + lying in wait shoots with 20xd6 shots that auto hit. First layer dies against that kind of shooting. If the opponent really castle up in a corner, you even might just drop down 20 models every turn with 'lying a wait' to simply keep the enemy in its place and go for the other objectives. Simply put a unit 'back in the shadows' in turn 3,4 etc.. and drop them in next turn to harass the enemies army with 'lying in wait'. It's crazy gak like that that gives GSC a win.
That doesn't work efficiently though. A flamer acolyte is 8 ppm, trading them for cheap bubble wrap makes them inefficient and your wasting valuable strats and CP while clogging your own lane. Flamer acolytes make more sense tossed into trucks so you can deploy and burn small holes in a screen to hopefully charge through.
Every admech list I see has either 50+ guard or 50+ skitarii or a mix. 20 hand flamers only kills 11 skitarii with shroud psalm. So 160 points and 5 CP for 77 points of rangers? Then they remove casualties so your out of range and or auspex scan you before your shooting phase. So your now required to burn your 3cp one time use strat and if your absolutely lucky about casualty removal you get to kill another 77 points worth of rangers. Jackals are better for this, but still not perfect.
I agree we can use ambushing and stalling tricks to a degree, but that assumes the mission and meta favors that at all. While we are much better off in CA18 missions, a lot of them encourage a scrum in the center or trying to get into the opposite end. Your also really going to struggle for first strike in every game. It also is not so easy to just hold an enemy back, they need to not have any fly or equivalent units or transports and they need to not have auspex scanning. Not only that, but you literally waiting until turn 2 minimum to build your cattle pen. Maybe it's my meta, but armies I play are fairly quick and even with only 1 turn they are at least at the center, so it's hardly a dominant board control position when your 3.1" back from the center.
Maybe I'll bust them out again this weekend, I think the best lists for me are going to lean on jackals and transports. I'll find out at least, I already own 6 trucks and I have 15 jackals so I might as well, hopefully they do something. I am betting they at least will add valuable pressure turn 1.
DoomMouse wrote: Quick question, do any of you bother with Maguses if you have the option for a patriarch? As they essentially do the same thing but patriarch has a godly statline for just 50pts extra it seems like a no brainer to upgrade to me. Even just the increase in durability is decent, never mind the massive counter attack potential.
Because you can only have 1 Patriarch per detachment and you might well want more psykers then that.
Every admech list I see has either 50+ guard or 50+ skitarii or a mix. 20 hand flamers only kills 11 skitarii with shroud psalm. So 160 points and 5 CP for 77 points of rangers? Then they remove casualties so your out of range and or auspex scan you before your shooting phase. So your now required to burn your 3cp one time use strat and if your absolutely lucky about casualty removal you get to kill another 77 points worth of rangers. Jackals are better for this, but still not perfect.
Sorry, I wrote 20 flamers but it is 40 flamers. First 20 flame with perfect ambush and then again in the shooting game. You can compare results versus point/CP-cost but if this means the rest of my army is able to push thru then I would even trow the kitchen sink at that bubble wrap. I would even block the 'auspex scan/skull' stratagem with my 'plans generations in the making' stratagem if needed.
First turn: shoot with mortars + summon unit neophytes (2CP) with anti-infantry guns and start shooting. Keep outside 12 inch of the robots and try to assault the rangers and see if it is possible to tri-pod a model.
Second turn: shoot with mortars, lying in wait 20 flamer acolytes (2CP) + perfect ambush (3CP) for double shooting. block 'skull' stratagem if needed (3 CP).
Third turn: Enemy got maybe 10 rangers left but thats not enough to block the bots. Drop in with full broodsurge detachment and cast 'mass hypnosis' on the bots and perfect ambush (3CP) with a rock saw unit to assault the bots.
Total: 13 CP + extra CP for reroll dices.
Red Corsair wrote: but armies I play are fairly quick and even with only 1 turn they are at least at the center, so it's hardly a dominant board control position when your 3.1" back from the center.
True, but moving towards the center also means you need to protect the juicy units all around and then you need even more bubble wrap. But that indeed can be challenging. Having nothing valuable on the field turn 1 and 2 also means the enemy can roam free and you got see if you can afford that and make it into a win.
Red Corsair wrote: Folks keep failing to understand the major issue of timing coupled with area control. The more you lean on acolytes from reserve (the only way your making them work) the less table presence you have. Which means they can screen them back further and with cheap garbage because nothing in our book shoots screens down remotely efficiently.
Flamer acolytes are not good at removing screens, they cost WAY to many CP, are not that cheap and only have range to hit the front layer of screening before dying easily. Do you guys seriously play opponents with single layers of screening?
One of my main opponents plays admech, rangers are filthy cheap at 7ppm and in mars have a 3+ save from shooting and essentially have 30" range bolters. It's a nightmare removing these guys from range and even assaulting your just trading 7 point dudes for 7 point dudes. Meanwhile dakka bots were basically designed to shut our army down. Long range, insane output, and AP-2 with ignore cover meaning we don't get saves anywhere. One unit of 6 is only 660 lol. They can shoot 108 times with full rerolls next to cawl. They will scrub 68 guys a turn. 81 if they wrath of mars. With cawl they only spent 850. That leaves them 1150 to spend on other things, so engine seer and 50 rangers for 380. They still have 770 they can use on any number of things. All those guys BTW will have a 3+ save against those hand flamers, they can also auspex scan the unit and murder half of it before it does anything.
Hey dude, this is true - but I feel like just taking a single unit of reserved Acolytes is only like 150 pts off your list, and being able to hold 3 cp to bring it down into whatever straight into assault once the gap is made, is a really nice unit for helping close out games. Anything else I'm deepstriking I'm kinda loose with and just throwing into gak to cause havoc like a Patriach, Neophytes, Kelermorph, whatever. I think timing is key as you say.
SHUPPET wrote: I feel like 200 pts worth of Mortars cleans screens the most effectively because they just keep going every. Single. Turn. They can also deal with enemy Mortars (who are otherwise extremely cost effective against us), and I think that is something easy to forget but should be taken into account. By turn 2 they've put over 40 wounds on the enemy chaff, which isn't as many as the Termagants, but also doesn't cost any CP or rely on less-than-optimal stuff like Jorm Ravener tunnels, and that 18" range can still be a little limiting once they come out, and then they are basically a suicide unit regardless. Also they can probably hold a lot of your backfield ground and objectives which is cool too.
That being said, Termagants have the virtue of dumping all their shots down at once, and Mortars can die - but generally to other Mortars who we should be happy to trade with if they move to do so, and a strong Nid soup list generally isn't something a lot of armies want to push up against either. I think they will outperform Devilgants quite nicely.
I definitely feel that mortars have their place, and agree that Termagants have significant downsides. I'm looking to eventually try out both, and also big shotgun Neophyte squads with webber's, which feel like they should be better than they are. I feel like I have been the voice pushing the virtues of Termagants in this thread, and want to make it clear that there are significant tradeoffs involved. I don't think there is a perfect solution to chaff clearing for us (at least until GW releases an A-10 Warthog model). I think that you have to pick the solution that works best with the rest of your build and play style.
SHUPPET wrote: I feel like 200 pts worth of Mortars cleans screens the most effectively because they just keep going every. Single. Turn. They can also deal with enemy Mortars (who are otherwise extremely cost effective against us), and I think that is something easy to forget but should be taken into account. By turn 2 they've put over 40 wounds on the enemy chaff, which isn't as many as the Termagants, but also doesn't cost any CP or rely on less-than-optimal stuff like Jorm Ravener tunnels, and that 18" range can still be a little limiting once they come out, and then they are basically a suicide unit regardless. Also they can probably hold a lot of your backfield ground and objectives which is cool too.
That being said, Termagants have the virtue of dumping all their shots down at once, and Mortars can die - but generally to other Mortars who we should be happy to trade with if they move to do so, and a strong Nid soup list generally isn't something a lot of armies want to push up against either. I think they will outperform Devilgants quite nicely.
I definitely feel that mortars have their place, and agree that Termagants have significant downsides. I'm looking to eventually try out both, and also big shotgun Neophyte squads with webber's, which feel like they should be better than they are. I feel like I have been the voice pushing the virtues of Termagants in this thread, and want to make it clear that there are significant tradeoffs involved. I don't think there is a perfect solution to chaff clearing for us (at least until GW releases an A-10 Warthog model). I think that you have to pick the solution that works best with the rest of your build and play style.
Also, a 2000p army needs 1000p on the field. Yes, you can put 3 units/blieps in reserves so thats about 600p maximum (big units, 20 acolytes with 8 rock saws, 8+abberants 15 jackals etc..). That leaves you with 400 points you got to deploy. You also want units on your own objectives and it would be nice if these units can also contribute turn 1 and onward. So thats mortars.
But the termagaunt devourer bomb is never a 'bad' addition. That devourer double shooting output is very strong and I really really really like to add a neurothrope with the horror.
How have people got on with the putting all 3 codexes together? I’d like to try running a GSC/Nids/Guard list and would be curious to hear how it fares from those with first hand experience.
Reanimator wrote: How have people got on with the putting all 3 codexes together? I’d like to try running a GSC/Nids/Guard list and would be curious to hear how it fares from those with first hand experience.
Reanimator wrote: How have people got on with the putting all 3 codexes together? I’d like to try running a GSC/Nids/Guard list and would be curious to hear how it fares from those with first hand experience.
Lot's of options when combining them of course. In this setup GSC probably is going to focus on reserve drops and get in their face (broodsurge detachment). Tyranids can either drop/move with them or pick a nice big hive guard unit and shoot twice each round. I like to combine GSC 'mass hypnosis' psychic power with the tyranid 'the horror' psychic power so thats 2x -1 to hit. If I would add Astra M. then I would go for the artillery and cheap(er) mortars.
Yeah I agree that the choice is quite nice- if occasionally hard to pick between. I’m considering running AM just to get a shadowsword and leave horde/board control to the gribblies. I only have a limited amount of GSC to choose from which was largely what I thought looked cool...
Played a small club tournament with a GSC / Tyranid combo and learned a few things a like to share. I played with roughly 100 acolytes + tyranid patrol with neurothrope and 30 gaunts.
- dropping 100 acolytes in the enemies face is scary but it is hard to get successful assaults. I didn't have reroll charge with the broodsurge WL trait because the tournament restrictions would not allow it, but even when you reach the enemy you cannot get a lot of models in close combat and you still gotta face returning fire next turn.
I'am going to test if it is possible to just drop in with the characters + rusted claw neophytes or brood brothers in cover around them + one big unit acolytes with rock saws with perfect ambush and a big acolyte unit with handflamers and demolition charge (lying in wait). After that I could take the returning fire and next turn I drop in more acolytes with rock saws with perfect ambush. maybe combine them with deep strike Ymgarl neurothrope because 'the horror' in combination with 'mass hypnosis' is very good to mess with returning fire. I could also 'return to the shadow' with an acolyte unit and drop them turn 4 with perfect ambush again.
- I thought you lose the game if you don't have any units on the board at the end of the battle round, but thats not the case (old edition mix up I think). You need units on the board at the end of any turn after round 1. Almost lost the game turn 2 but I manage to keep a single wounded (very nervous) neurothrope alive.
- Before, I always forgot that I can shoot pistols in CC. Not any more! Acolytes with hand flamers can destroy the last remaining enemy models in CC and after that the unit is free to assault something else.
- Need to practice how I deploy my characters after deep strike, because I leave gaps in my ranks and the enemy can take advantage of that. Probably going to drop down with 20 brood brother infantry for cheap wounds that can protect my characters. If I deploy my patriarch forward then the enemy can shoot down a single GSC unit and reach the patriarch or when I deploy him in the back then the can deep strike a unit of their own and kill him then.
- I made so many mistakes but also seen so many opportunities to lock units in close combat (tri-pod) and mess up the enemy ranks. Every inch counts and you got to plan ahead when you assault an enemy unit.
- Man I love 'rock saws'. Putting 38 wounds on a knight is really something.
Yeah I agree that the choice is quite nice- if occasionally hard to pick between. I’m considering running AM just to get a shadowsword and leave horde/board control to the gribblies. I only have a limited amount of GSC to choose from which was largely what I thought looked cool...
Not a big fan of having a big 'bulls eye' tank but maybe that's because I like to play full infantry so that those anti-tank/MC weapons won't have a big impact. Also like to use 'mass hypnosis' and 'the horror' to give a nasty enemy unit -1 modifiers making such a unit almost useless. Does make a nice combo though.
I’ve run IG/Nid/GSC in the past with a Kronos and Cot4AE detachment along with arty guard and it’s pretty obnoxious. A heavy detachment of Biovores and hive guard, which can drop down spore mines in range to use the Kronos stratagem to stop any important spells being cast. A detachment of 4-Armed acolytes for the deepstriking punch, and the deny stratagem. And finally a detachment of guard for basilisks and some cheap filler.
Nearly all your damaging units are long ranged that stay out of LOS, and you can stop any important spells or stratagems from going off.
Now that GSC has Mortars, and Nids already have Hive Guard, and AM detachments don't even give the full CP, Ihaven't found a huge lot of need or want to ally in AM, though it could work. I just prefer GSC + Nids honestly
The main benefits of guard is to take heavy artillery, namely vultures or punisher tank commanders. Gsc contribute powerful infantry and characters, nids contribute genestealers
shogun wrote: Played a small club tournament with a GSC / Tyranid combo and learned a few things a like to share. I played with roughly 100 acolytes + tyranid patrol with neurothrope and 30 gaunts.
- dropping 100 acolytes in the enemies face is scary but it is hard to get successful assaults. I didn't have reroll charge with the broodsurge WL trait because the tournament restrictions would not allow it, but even when you reach the enemy you cannot get a lot of models in close combat and you still gotta face returning fire next turn.
I'am going to test if it is possible to just drop in with the characters + rusted claw neophytes or brood brothers in cover around them + one big unit acolytes with rock saws with perfect ambush and a big acolyte unit with handflamers and demolition charge (lying in wait). After that I could take the returning fire and next turn I drop in more acolytes with rock saws with perfect ambush. maybe combine them with deep strike Ymgarl neurothrope because 'the horror' in combination with 'mass hypnosis' is very good to mess with returning fire. I could also 'return to the shadow' with an acolyte unit and drop them turn 4 with perfect ambush again.
- I thought you lose the game if you don't have any units on the board at the end of the battle round, but thats not the case (old edition mix up I think). You need units on the board at the end of any turn after round 1. Almost lost the game turn 2 but I manage to keep a single wounded (very nervous) neurothrope alive.
- Before, I always forgot that I can shoot pistols in CC. Not any more! Acolytes with hand flamers can destroy the last remaining enemy models in CC and after that the unit is free to assault something else.
- Need to practice how I deploy my characters after deep strike, because I leave gaps in my ranks and the enemy can take advantage of that. Probably going to drop down with 20 brood brother infantry for cheap wounds that can protect my characters. If I deploy my patriarch forward then the enemy can shoot down a single GSC unit and reach the patriarch or when I deploy him in the back then the can deep strike a unit of their own and kill him then.
- I made so many mistakes but also seen so many opportunities to lock units in close combat (tri-pod) and mess up the enemy ranks. Every inch counts and you got to plan ahead when you assault an enemy unit.
- Man I love 'rock saws'. Putting 38 wounds on a knight is really something.
Yeah I agree that the choice is quite nice- if occasionally hard to pick between. I’m considering running AM just to get a shadowsword and leave horde/board control to the gribblies. I only have a limited amount of GSC to choose from which was largely what I thought looked cool...
Not a big fan of having a big 'bulls eye' tank but maybe that's because I like to play full infantry so that those anti-tank/MC weapons won't have a big impact. Also like to use 'mass hypnosis' and 'the horror' to give a nasty enemy unit -1 modifiers making such a unit almost useless. Does make a nice combo though.
Nice! Good to see you're getting out there and playing a game or two, it's going to give you much better perspective than just theorycrafting.
I'm looking at deploying my Patriarch as a blip, then running him up the table instead of infiltrating him. I'm giving him -1 to hit from the Shadow Stalker warlord trait. I'm giving him the Amulet of the Voidworm for improved saves and no overwatch. Does the Amulet affect his invul save, bringing him to a 3+/4++ at -1 to hit?
Familiars have movement 6 and don't appear to have the advance and charge rule. If I give him a familiar, does that mean his max movement is 6 and he can no longer advance and charge?
babelfish wrote: Familiars have movement 6 and don't appear to have the advance and charge rule. If I give him a familiar, does that mean his max movement is 6 and he can no longer advance and charge?
The whole unit got advance + charge, not only the patriarch. But I also didn't realise that the familiar got movement 6 so that limits his movement a bit. Also, it doesn't say that the familiair get's removed after the patriarch dies, so it could be running away scared after losing his master but denying kill points at the same time.
See? I wasn't full of it when I was telling you high numbers of acolytes have issues deploying and getting in range from reserve. It comes from experience playing in tournaments.
Again the main issues are timing. You have to start coming in on turn 2 or you forfeit too much space, but also because you only have until turn 3. The slight work around to the turn 3 issue is using the strat to move 3 blipped units into underground. You still need the real estate to deploy however.
I just played a game with trucks again, and although it is demoralizing watching them blow up after countless hours or essembly, they do their job. 72 points is pretty cheap and they can do some funny refused flank deployments do to blips. I actually like trucking more then running 20 man acolytes squads, you basically get the truck rather then 10 acolytes, same number of wounds, more durable. You just need to accept that they will pop, but that's why they are so cheap.
I have been using a large jackal unit for my DS splash unit. Minimum of 10 with demos and you drop them in (hopefully with an alphus scooting into 12" range of them) and toss all your demos charges. It's an insane amount of damage they cause. They are WAY more consistent and easier to use IMHO then big units of abberants. Luckily though you can still run both if you want.
I still haven't really settled on a list, or a cult I like most. 4AE still really helps with trucks since you gain the +1 to charge even when disembarking, but I like some of the specific strats from the other cults. 4AE really helps you keep the jackals alive though, sicne canceling an auspex scan can literally save you the game and a ton of CP from being wasted.
Are you saying 10 with demo charge on all 10? There's a few issues I have with that but not least being that it's already not too difficult to screen a big target against them. What are the full 10 adding?
Automatically Appended Next Post: And yeah I agree that you have to have some measure of restraint when it comes to reserves. I prioritise board control every list, though I also keep a little something in reserve to come running out when the times right!
How do we as GSC players feel about the GSC rules (with no tyranids) being used to represent:
-regular bog-standard rebellious mining guilds
-crime organizations with stolen gear
-rebels, heretics, and cults of a xenos but non-tyranid nature
-rebels, heretics, and cults of an unspecified nature
-rebels, heretics, and cults of chaos
I really want to make a fun not-loyalist-imperials army, but using Astra Militarum seems too bog-standard and has too much military-grade gear. Renegades and Heretics is for specifically chaos type factions, and is of course, basically unplayably bad.
Seems like a great idea to me. A chaos cult using a few daemon bits for acolyte conversions. Beastmen heads to sub in on neophyte bodies to get rid of the tyranid look. Lots of possibilities. Have at it, and show pics!
ph34r wrote: How do we as GSC players feel about the GSC rules (with no tyranids) being used to represent:
-regular bog-standard rebellious mining guilds
-crime organizations with stolen gear
-rebels, heretics, and cults of a xenos but non-tyranid nature
-rebels, heretics, and cults of an unspecified nature
-rebels, heretics, and cults of chaos
I really want to make a fun not-loyalist-imperials army, but using Astra Militarum seems too bog-standard and has too much military-grade gear. Renegades and Heretics is for specifically chaos type factions, and is of course, basically unplayably bad.
Excellent ideas, do it.
And I agree with dracpanzer, show pics! I can see a lot of really cool conversions coming from this.
Mining guild / aggressive mining unions (lol) could definitely work under the book, it's practically an Adeptus Mining codex
The cult themes are also represented to some extent, with the loyalty and some of the powers, so you could maybe represent aspects of Chaos cultist force, though it would be pushing it a bit I think. Like you said, they already have their own rules, weak or not. I wouldn't have let an opponent run their Necrons as Craftworld Eldar for example, just so he could get a better ruleset for his fighter jets and firepower. You could force this in, but it would not be totally smooth, keeping track of boardstate would be a hassle for your opponents, it would be a lot of bookkeeping, and you will find plenty of people like myself who would rather not play against you for doing that just so that you could have some better rules than the ones already written for your army.
As for Xenos bands: Not a chance. Pretty much every weapon is already Imperial origin, and the ones that aren't are very imperium in flavor and style. They have some claws and biomorphs littered through I guess, but that's much too loose an association. Don't do that.
Especially if you haven't even built the army yet, there's no real reason you have to do this. Making a mining force would work just fine and people would love it. The rest... eh.
Red Corsair wrote: See? I wasn't full of it when I was telling you high numbers of acolytes have issues deploying and getting in range from reserve. It comes from experience playing in tournaments.
I already knew that. That's why I rather pick rusted claw for that +1 save against incoming fire next turn. I can get in close combat but not with enough models to make a dent apart from the 'perfect ambush' unit. I think I'am going to try to drop more cheaper Neophytes to protect the characters and might delay some acolytes for another turn with perfect ambush. I really need to decide if I go big and try to assault to get closer or should simply deploy in cover with my characters and take incoming fire and move in next turn + fresh 'perfect ambush' backup. Dropping the handflamer unit with 'lying in wait' also prevents counter attack for the units behind them.
Red Corsair wrote: Again the main issues are timing. You have to start coming in on turn 2 or you forfeit too much space, but also because you only have until turn 3. The slight work around to the turn 3 issue is using the strat to move 3 blipped units into underground. You still need the real estate to deploy however.
Having board control is only an issue against specific armies with lots of infantry and I got the tools to deal with that. My main issue is 'having something on the field' so that I don't get killed before my units drop in, but also helps my army. I need to survive and that could be difficult against fast enemy units that get first turn.
ph34r wrote: How do we as GSC players feel about the GSC rules (with no tyranids) being used to represent:
-regular bog-standard rebellious mining guilds
-crime organizations with stolen gear
-rebels, heretics, and cults of a xenos but non-tyranid nature
-rebels, heretics, and cults of an unspecified nature
-rebels, heretics, and cults of chaos
I really want to make a fun not-loyalist-imperials army, but using Astra Militarum seems too bog-standard and has too much military-grade gear. Renegades and Heretics is for specifically chaos type factions, and is of course, basically unplayably bad.
On page 37 of the Codex, there is this blurp, that certainly support your idea. I am planning to do this Nurgle/GSC army, or perhaps a more human/Ash Waste ganger/Mad Max Fury Road project - Or maybe a mix of all it.
So I think you should definitely go for it!
Infestation and Plague The Cult Tenebrous finds itself becoming
the infested rather than the infesters when
their bulk lander is swallowed by a warp
storm that strands them on the outskirts
of Nurgle’s Garden. The cult discovers the
true meaning of parasitism and horror.
Eventually, the Grandfather of Plagues
allows them to emerge into realspace once
more, horrifically changed and ready to
serve their new master’s sickly agendas
SHUPPET wrote: As for Xenos bands: Not a chance. Pretty much every weapon is already Imperial origin, and the ones that aren't are very imperium in flavor and style. They have some claws and biomorphs littered through I guess, but that's much too loose an association. Don't do that.
Sorry I was unclear, what I mean to say is humans from the Imperium who have fallen under the sway of [tyranids, other xenos, chaos, etc] in my examples. So, a spooky lovecraftian cult that just happens to not be about Genestealers specifically, for example.
Is there any loadout besides the punisher cannons? That's the one that seems good to me.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mellon wrote:Excellent ideas, do it.
And I agree with dracpanzer, show pics! I can see a lot of really cool conversions coming from this.
dracpanzer wrote:Seems like a great idea to me. A chaos cult using a few daemon bits for acolyte conversions. Beastmen heads to sub in on neophyte bodies to get rid of the tyranid look. Lots of possibilities. Have at it, and show pics!
Right now my thought on the sinister force behind the army is "spooky alien undead ghost stuff but not chaos".
Here are some (spoilered to not mess up page formatting) images that evoke a mood I'm going for (by the amazing artist Keith Thompson):
Keep em cheap. The base form is enough to clear chaff and that’s their job, use the points to beef up whatever your sending in through the screens instead
SHUPPET wrote: Are you saying 10 with demo charge on all 10? There's a few issues I have with that but not least being that it's already not too difficult to screen a big target against them. What are the full 10 adding?
Automatically Appended Next Post: And yeah I agree that you have to have some measure of restraint when it comes to reserves. I prioritise board control every list, though I also keep a little something in reserve to come running out when the times right!
I am saying 10 with every member having a demo charge yes. I have been dropping them in on turn 3 unless I have a window on 2. That unit can quire literally just win you the game. It can stretch out very far and you can through all 10 the turn the arrive plus the blasting charges, which can be better then you would expect with rusted claw. It's CP expensive though but it is by far and away are best unit to combine with lying in wait and since it is shooting, it's more consistent. Smaller units work as well, but I find if I am sinking so many CP into it already, I'd rather maximize my splash.
As everything else though, yes screening can and will be a PITA. It's the entire issue with this book. Everything works from reserve and all the reserve tricks use strats, meaning your only using them once a turn. They really should have made perfect ambush a pregame stratagem that you spent on units during deployment even if it meant changing how it worked for balance.
Red Corsair wrote: See? I wasn't full of it when I was telling you high numbers of acolytes have issues deploying and getting in range from reserve. It comes from experience playing in tournaments.
I already knew that. That's why I rather pick rusted claw for that +1 save against incoming fire next turn. I can get in close combat but not with enough models to make a dent apart from the 'perfect ambush' unit. I think I'am going to try to drop more cheaper Neophytes to protect the characters and might delay some acolytes for another turn with perfect ambush. I really need to decide if I go big and try to assault to get closer or should simply deploy in cover with my characters and take incoming fire and move in next turn + fresh 'perfect ambush' backup. Dropping the handflamer unit with 'lying in wait' also prevents counter attack for the units behind them.
Red Corsair wrote: Again the main issues are timing. You have to start coming in on turn 2 or you forfeit too much space, but also because you only have until turn 3. The slight work around to the turn 3 issue is using the strat to move 3 blipped units into underground. You still need the real estate to deploy however.
Having board control is only an issue against specific armies with lots of infantry and I got the tools to deal with that. My main issue is 'having something on the field' so that I don't get killed before my units drop in, but also helps my army. I need to survive and that could be difficult against fast enemy units that get first turn.
Having board control isn't an issue only with horde armies. I can literally screen out the entire table by turn 2 with my dark eldar which is not a horde army. Heck, even with my necrons I can do it thanks to veil of darkness and deceiver starting turn 1. But, that aside, yes your going to struggle reserving large portions of your army. I'd go so far as to say it's the trap of the book. Your better off reserve 2-3 sledge hammer units plus some trick characters if you run them and focus on swarming the table from the get go with cheap fast units and scouts. Our transport, the truck at least, is really cheap and quite fast. They die pretty easily still, but I find they last much longer then the equivalent points in infantry, they also are great for soaking overwatch and being a nuisance when you lock things up.
Reanimator wrote: @Red Corsair are you saying that you’ve been throwing all 10 demo charges at once? I think the strat says you can only use 5 at a time..?
Laying in wait to be 3" away.
Perfect Ambush to shoot when you come down.
Extra Explosives to throw 5 demo's.
Shooting Phase.
Extra Explosives to throw the remaining 5 demo's
Drive by Demolition for +1 to hit and wound (can't move since DS this turn)
It's expensive but with an alphus nearby your hitting and wounding most things on 2's. For me it generally swings the game in my favor or brings me back from the brink. I've tried twisted helix abberants from anointed throng (2 CP) perfect ambushing (3CP) and fighting twice (3CP) which also costs 8CP and the bikes are more reliable and cheaper. Also don't forget your getting 10D6 demos but also 10d6 blasting charges, with +1 to wound those also can really murder things.
Yeah that's a crapton of firepower. I'd probably consider it, but I run a mix of Tyranids and GSC and with Kraken + Hive Guard I simply don't have 8CP to throw at something like that, in fact I barely even have the CP to do my single Acolyte bomb. With a pure GSC list though, that seems pretty hot. For the reasons you describe is exactly why I prefer Tyranids. They deploy on the field better than GSC, but GSC definitely hotdrops better, and I think a mix of both (and stacking a bunch of psykers!) is what's best at least in my personal opinion.
Reanimator wrote: @Red Corsair are you saying that you’ve been throwing all 10 demo charges at once? I think the strat says you can only use 5 at a time..?
Laying in wait to be 3" away.
Perfect Ambush to shoot when you come down.
Extra Explosives to throw 5 demo's.
Shooting Phase.
Extra Explosives to throw the remaining 5 demo's
Drive by Demolition for +1 to hit and wound (can't move since DS this turn)
Viola, 10 demo charges in 1 turn.
Red Corsair wrote:It's expensive but with an alphus nearby your hitting and wounding most things on 2's. For me it generally swings the game in my favor or brings me back from the brink. I've tried twisted helix abberants from anointed throng (2 CP) perfect ambushing (3CP) and fighting twice (3CP) which also costs 8CP and the bikes are more reliable and cheaper. Also don't forget your getting 10D6 demos but also 10d6 blasting charges, with +1 to wound those also can really murder things.
I know Jackals with demos are amazing, did a little mathhammer on them a while back. But what I have been thinking about is whether 1x10 or 2x5 is better. Its the same cp cost to do 2x lying in wait, extra explosives, drive by demo, or for the 10 man, lying in wait, perfect ambush, 2x extra explosives, drive by demo. Opportunity cost of both pa and liw one turn vs liw two turns, so kinda a wash there. So the main tradeoff is getting all the demos into something in a single turn, vs both sets of 5 demos getting the alphus and drive by demo bonuses (the movement phase set otherwise would not). So +2 to hit and +1 to wound, which is nothing to turn your nose up at. I guess also potential for the keler bonus too. What are people’s thoughts?
2x5 is perfectly fine. I just find I get more from the blasting charges as well. After all, it isn't just 10d6 demos, it's also 10d6 blasting charges with that +2 to hit and +1 to wound.
Red Corsair wrote: 2x5 is perfectly fine. I just find I get more from the blasting charges as well. After all, it isn't just 10d6 demos, it's also 10d6 blasting charges with that +2 to hit and +1 to wound.
Just to be explicit for anyone else reading this, only 5 of the demos and 5 of the blasting charges get the +2/+1 (and potential reroll 1s to hit with keler) because those benefits only work in the shooting phase. But you’re right that 10 BCs even with only half getting buffed is pretty nice still.
Red Corsair wrote: 2x5 is perfectly fine. I just find I get more from the blasting charges as well. After all, it isn't just 10d6 demos, it's also 10d6 blasting charges with that +2 to hit and +1 to wound.
Just to be explicit for anyone else reading this, only 5 of the demos and 5 of the blasting charges get the +2/+1 (and potential reroll 1s to hit with keler) because those benefits only work in the shooting phase. But you’re right that 10 BCs even with only half getting buffed is pretty nice still.
Thats, true and honestly, I think using acolytes with demos might also have merit. You don't get that sweet drive by demo strat but your taking them anyway and demos are so cheap. The list I am currently running/testing fields 6 10 man acolyte units in trucks and IO haven't settled on any gear yet.
I have been looking at the Ambush Marker rules to make sure I had my 'withins' and 'wholly withins' straight and I noticed a couple of things. The first is that if someone has snuck up on you and gotten just outside of the magic 9" away, the first models that you place doesn't have to be more than 9" away from the enemy - every other model in the unit does, but the first is only restricted by distance from the marker. This may just get you charged if you try it - but it is worth knowing.
However, this also means that the first model can also be placed outside of your deployment zone (marker wholly within, but first model just has to be within 1" of that), and if you are on a 32mm base, you can gain a nearly 2" advantage. Unless you are a Goliath truck, in which case your advantage appears to be a significant one... and then you should be able to disembark models.
Thoughts?
Thats, true and honestly, I think using acolytes with demos might also have merit. You don't get that sweet drive by demo strat but your taking them anyway and demos are so cheap. The list I am currently running/testing fields 6 10 man acolyte units in trucks and IO haven't settled on any gear yet.
Try 2 units of 5 with Demolition Charges in a Truck. This allows you to throw 2 charges at a time (or 3 with a demolition cache) without having to drop command points on Extra Explosives.
Thats, true and honestly, I think using acolytes with demos might also have merit. You don't get that sweet drive by demo strat but your taking them anyway and demos are so cheap. The list I am currently running/testing fields 6 10 man acolyte units in trucks and IO haven't settled on any gear yet.
Try 2 units of 5 with Demolition Charges in a Truck. This allows you to throw 2 charges at a time (or 3 with a demolition cache) without having to drop command points on Extra Explosives.
I'll give it a try next outing.
BTW I remember a discussion about the alphus +1 to hit buff effecting passengers in a transport. If true can anyone point to me where/ how I would demonstrate this in the rules/FAQs?
Thats, true and honestly, I think using acolytes with demos might also have merit. You don't get that sweet drive by demo strat but your taking them anyway and demos are so cheap. The list I am currently running/testing fields 6 10 man acolyte units in trucks and IO haven't settled on any gear yet.
Try 2 units of 5 with Demolition Charges in a Truck. This allows you to throw 2 charges at a time (or 3 with a demolition cache) without having to drop command points on Extra Explosives.
I'll give it a try next outing.
BTW I remember a discussion about the alphus +1 to hit buff effecting passengers in a transport. If true can anyone point to me where/ how I would demonstrate this in the rules/FAQs?
Modifiers and penalties that affect the transport affect the occupants as well.
So, a +1 to-hit that affects the Goliath also affects the passengers, if indirectly.
SHUPPET wrote: Mining guild / aggressive mining unions (lol) could definitely work under the book, it's practically an Adeptus Mining codex
The cult themes are also represented to some extent, with the loyalty and some of the powers, so you could maybe represent aspects of Chaos cultist force, though it would be pushing it a bit I think. Like you said, they already have their own rules, weak or not. I wouldn't have let an opponent run their Necrons as Craftworld Eldar for example, just so he could get a better ruleset for his fighter jets and firepower. You could force this in, but it would not be totally smooth, keeping track of boardstate would be a hassle for your opponents, it would be a lot of bookkeeping, and you will find plenty of people like myself who would rather not play against you for doing that just so that you could have some better rules than the ones already written for your army.
What list would you recommend I use to make HP Lovecraft: Shadow over Innsmouth: The Army?
Benlisted wrote:....... But you’re right that 10 BCs even with only half getting buffed is pretty nice still.
In a test game I dropped 10 jackals with DC between two custodes jetbike captains with lying in wait and perfect ambush. First I threw 2 DC on captain A and 3 DC on Captain B. I used the jackals on the outside of the unit. After this I could look at how many wounds the captains got and divided the next batch accordingly (5 jackals in the middle in range of both captains). This way I got the most out of my demolition charges. But I think I would rather pick two 5 x jackal units with DC for flexible 'lying in wait' or simply drop them in cover and drive forward next turn and trow them then. Better to use 'perfect ambush' for the assault units.
Red Corsair wrote:....... The list I am currently running/testing fields 6 10 man acolyte units in trucks and IO haven't settled on any gear yet.
How is this list working for you? I'am serious curious because I think the trucks would just blow up and the acolytes are target practice form that point on.
hangnailnz wrote:I have been looking at the Ambush Marker rules to make sure I had my 'withins' and 'wholly withins' straight and I noticed a couple of things. The first is that if someone has snuck up on you and gotten just outside of the magic 9" away, the first models that you place doesn't have to be more than 9" away from the enemy - every other model in the unit does, but the first is only restricted by distance from the marker. This may just get you charged if you try it - but it is worth knowing.
However, this also means that the first model can also be placed outside of your deployment zone (marker wholly within, but first model just has to be within 1" of that), and if you are on a 32mm base, you can gain a nearly 2" advantage. Unless you are a Goliath truck, in which case your advantage appears to be a significant one... and then you should be able to disembark models.
Thoughts?
I think it's not RAI but if you want to play it that way then let your opponent know beforehand.
Strat_N8 wrote:
Try 2 units of 5 with Demolition Charges in a Truck. This allows you to throw 2 charges at a time (or 3 with a demolition cache) without having to drop command points on Extra Explosives.
So there have been a ton of GSC lists having success at the big ITC tournaments, plus Adepticon in the last few months. Does anyone have access to any of these to share?
40kstats.com shows the top 4 lists (3 GSC in the last few tournaments).
I've recently started Nids and all this GSC success has got me thinking of some combos I could add. Reliably getting a unit of Abberrants or Rock Saw Acolytes into combat would be great. Or a Kelemorph or something to access the GSC psychic tree - so much good stuff!
It’s interesting because there doesn’t seem to be a “one list” yet. Some have flamer bombs, some have rock saw bombs. Some have aberrants. Some have vultures, some have kraken genestealers.
One consistency of course is tons of infantry, specifically acolytes and no vehicles.
Knights and eldar flier spam are still the big kids in the block, On the latter, I have no bloody clue how GS can deal with 3-6 fliers blocking reinforcements coming anywhere outside our own deployment zone.
Threat overload more or less. You put enough vehicles down on the table and the foe runs out of anti-armor to deal with them all. Trucks are fairly fast so getting close isn't too big an issue (generally in range to begin bombing by turn 2) and can use their mobility to stay out of line of sight provided there is sufficient terrain.
Also for the sake of context, I was giving advice to Red Corsair who said he is working on a list featuring 60 Acolytes and 6 trucks. Breaking 10-man units into 5 man units makes them more efficient bomb throwers while embarked on a Goliath due to the way grenades work. Assuming 3 trucks with demo caches and 3 10-strong units with no extra explosives, you can get 6 charges out in one go. If the squads are instead run as 6 5-strong units, that increases to 9 charges in one go. Now the 10-strong unit does get more out of extra explosives, but at that point you are burning command points and still throw 1 less demo charge than the MSU approach.
Gordoape wrote:It’s interesting because there doesn’t seem to be a “one list” yet. Some have flamer bombs, some have rock saw bombs. Some have aberrants. Some have vultures, some have kraken genestealers.
One consistency of course is tons of infantry, specifically acolytes and no vehicles.
Thats because it is a 'glass scalpel' army that relies on different tactics depending on the enemies armies and missions. A minor mistake or unlucky turn can tear the whole army down but the same goes for the enemy player. You cannot really go for the obvious 'one list' with GSC. Also really depends on the tournament/mission setting.
Postulent wrote:Knights and eldar flier spam are still the big kids in the block, On the latter, I have no bloody clue how GS can deal with 3-6 fliers blocking reinforcements coming anywhere outside our own deployment zone.
Fliers are a tough one but also depends on the whole army setup. Craftworld flyers are not great at killing cheap infantry but the drukhari razorwing's are a different matter. Mind controlling a crimson hunter exarch could mean a dead flyer in one go. 5 rusty claw jackals with demolition charge can get a 2+ to hit so even a flyer with lightning reflexes can get killed in one go.
Threat overload more or less. You put enough vehicles down on the table and the foe runs out of anti-armor to deal with them all. Trucks are fairly fast so getting close isn't too big an issue (generally in range to begin bombing by turn 2) and can use their mobility to stay out of line of sight provided there is sufficient terrain.
Also for the sake of context, I was giving advice to Red Corsair who said he is working on a list featuring 60 Acolytes and 6 trucks. Breaking 10-man units into 5 man units makes them more efficient bomb throwers while embarked on a Goliath due to the way grenades work. Assuming 3 trucks with demo caches and 3 10-strong units with no extra explosives, you can get 6 charges out in one go. If the squads are instead run as 6 5-strong units, that increases to 9 charges in one go. Now the 10-strong unit does get more out of extra explosives, but at that point you are burning command points and still throw 1 less demo charge than the MSU approach.
Yes, if you want to go down that road it would be good advice but I don't see how 6 trucks would come even close to make demolition charges work.
Postulent wrote: Knights and eldar flier spam are still the big kids in the block, On the latter, I have no bloody clue how GS can deal with 3-6 fliers blocking reinforcements coming anywhere outside our own deployment zone.
Knights get destroyed by Acolytes with Saw's. I'm not worried about those.
Flyers, the only real flyer lists you see is Eldar. Mental Onslaught to try and take down the Dark Eldar ones cause they actually hurt infantry. Mind Control aswell as mentioned.
Ignore the rest and just win by pure body count on the table being higher then their flyers can ever deal with.
People mention Demo Bikers but I'm iffy on those myself, they simply Vect the Extra Explosives and your left out to dry and won't live long enough for a second chance.
Postulent wrote: Knights and eldar flier spam are still the big kids in the block, On the latter, I have no bloody clue how GS can deal with 3-6 fliers blocking reinforcements coming anywhere outside our own deployment zone.
Knights get destroyed by Acolytes with Saw's. I'm not worried about those.
Flyers, the only real flyer lists you see is Eldar. Mental Onslaught to try and take down the Dark Eldar ones cause they actually hurt infantry. Mind Control aswell as mentioned.
Ignore the rest and just win by pure body count on the table being higher then their flyers can ever deal with.
People mention Demo Bikers but I'm iffy on those myself, they simply Vect the Extra Explosives and your left out to dry and won't live long enough for a second chance.
We have our own counter so just save 3CP to trump their Vect with a plan generations in the making.
Postulent wrote: Knights and eldar flier spam are still the big kids in the block, On the latter, I have no bloody clue how GS can deal with 3-6 fliers blocking reinforcements coming anywhere outside our own deployment zone.
Knights get destroyed by Acolytes with Saw's. I'm not worried about those.
Flyers, the only real flyer lists you see is Eldar. Mental Onslaught to try and take down the Dark Eldar ones cause they actually hurt infantry. Mind Control aswell as mentioned.
Ignore the rest and just win by pure body count on the table being higher then their flyers can ever deal with.
People mention Demo Bikers but I'm iffy on those myself, they simply Vect the Extra Explosives and your left out to dry and won't live long enough for a second chance.
We have our own counter so just save 3CP to trump their Vect with a plan generations in the making.
Sorry I screwed up which stratagem.
They vect Lying in wait.
If you generations they can vect Extra Explosives.
Either way, your bomb isn't going to bomb and its going to get shot of the table asap.
Yes, if you want to go down that road it would be good advice but I don't see how 6 trucks would come even close to make demolition charges work.
I don't know what all Red Corsair had in mind for his list, but I assume he will have other aggressive units to provide threat overload, so taking down trucks means something else will make it in. As is though, a demo truck is only 2'' slower than Jackals and doesn't have to worry about some models being out of range since everything is being thrown from a point on the hull.
My attempt at a half casual half competitive GSC list, I'm using converted (headswap) Death Korps infantry for Brood Brothers and Death Korps Engineers (headswap) for Neophytes (because they have better armor, and I am taking Rusted Claw for +1 armor vs low AP). The soldiers are clones using Vitae-Wombs which have been stolen with great care from the Mechanicus.
I'm using a death korps quartermaster with the Nexos table for the Nexos, a scribe-servitor with Clamavus broadcaster staff as Clamavus. My leman russes are 3rd party 'Grizzly' tanks from I believe OOP confrontation, with leman russ turrets and weapons.
The sentry guns, heavy weapons, basilisk, and platforms are all muddy 'dug-in' sandbag emplacements. My Cult's background is somewhat like Twisted Helix, a Mechanicus Magos gets infected/infects itself and goes on to do a ton of experimentation and hybrid creation. This magos is essentially parallel to Twisted Helix's Prime Subject, and has retreated from its forgeworld of origin to a backwater mud planet to hide on and experiment. The magos's plan is essentially 'twisted helix is human + alien = better, so let's do 'human + alien + machine' and see what happens).
Gordoape wrote: Seems fun, but it appears to me like a worse guard army. What are you really getting out of the GSC detachments?
That is a legitimate point that you note. I do need to answer that question myself.
From GSC I love the:
-support characters, basically all HQs and Elites seem great
-neophyte cultist blobs ambushing in
-20 man brood brothers squads fearless from the patriarch
-acolyte hybrids... with saws? seems to be the way to go.
-Jackals. I love the bikes and want to take a ton.
For GSC I don't care so much for:
-the vehicles. I have enough vehicles
-Tyranid allies
-hybrid metamorphs
I should plan around 20 man neophyte and brood brother units. It's just such a daunting task to paint.
How viable is a Baneblade in a GSC army? I bought one for relatively cheap, because why not?
Trying to find points to run a Supreme Command Detachment of Brood Brothers with:
- 2x Primaris Psykers (to buff the Baneblade's save and -1 to hit)
- Tank Commander
- Baneblade
The rest of my army would be a Rusted Claw brigade consisting of something like:
- Patriarch/Magus/Primus (had to scrap the Jackal Alphus and Acolyte Iconward with the deliverance broodsurge specialist detachment)
- 20x Acolytes (10/5/5) with 4 rock saws
- 30x Neophytes with 6 mining lasers
- Clamavus/Kelermorph/Nexos
- 9x Jackals w/ demo charges (5x and 4x)
- Armored Sentinel w/ multi laser ( to fill the last fast attack spot for cheap)
- 2x heavy mortar teams
- Goliath Rockgrinder w/ incinerator
landersloot wrote: How viable is a Baneblade in a GSC army? I bought one for relatively cheap, because why not?
Trying to find points to run a Supreme Command Detachment of Brood Brothers with:
- 2x Primaris Psykers (to buff the Baneblade's save and -1 to hit)
- Tank Commander
- Baneblade
The rest of my army would be a Rusted Claw brigade consisting of something like:
- Patriarch/Magus/Primus (had to scrap the Jackal Alphus and Acolyte Iconward with the deliverance broodsurge specialist detachment)
- 20x Acolytes (10/5/5) with 4 rock saws
- 30x Neophytes with 6 mining lasers
- Clamavus/Kelermorph/Nexos
- 9x Jackals w/ demo charges (5x and 4x)
- Armored Sentinel w/ multi laser ( to fill the last fast attack spot for cheap)
- 2x heavy mortar teams
- Goliath Rockgrinder w/ incinerator
Competitively I would say no to the Baneblade but I have had a ton of fun using my shadow sword in casual games with my GSC.
landersloot wrote: How viable is a Baneblade in a GSC army? I bought one for relatively cheap, because why not?
Trying to find points to run a Supreme Command Detachment of Brood Brothers with:
- 2x Primaris Psykers (to buff the Baneblade's save and -1 to hit)
- Tank Commander
- Baneblade
The rest of my army would be a Rusted Claw brigade consisting of something like:
- Patriarch/Magus/Primus (had to scrap the Jackal Alphus and Acolyte Iconward with the deliverance broodsurge specialist detachment)
- 20x Acolytes (10/5/5) with 4 rock saws
- 30x Neophytes with 6 mining lasers
- Clamavus/Kelermorph/Nexos
- 9x Jackals w/ demo charges (5x and 4x)
- Armored Sentinel w/ multi laser ( to fill the last fast attack spot for cheap)
- 2x heavy mortar teams
- Goliath Rockgrinder w/ incinerator
Competitively I would say no to the Baneblade but I have had a ton of fun using my shadow sword in casual games with my GSC.
Yea, figured as much. I just play friendly games and wanted something with some staying power
Yes, if you want to go down that road it would be good advice but I don't see how 6 trucks would come even close to make demolition charges work.
I don't know what all Red Corsair had in mind for his list, but I assume he will have other aggressive units to provide threat overload, so taking down trucks means something else will make it in. As is though, a demo truck is only 2'' slower than Jackals and doesn't have to worry about some models being out of range since everything is being thrown from a point on the hull.
Correct. I keep hearing folks talk about how fragile trucks are, but a truck is the same price as 10 acolytes. So your either taking 10 T6 4+ 6+++ save wounds on a single model or 10 more t3 5+ save individual wounds. So while it is a better target for AT weapons, it's miles more durable against AI guns which I see in way higher numbers. The truck also moves twice the speed and cheats my embarked unit 3" + the base when they hop out. I am not going to tell anyone it's perfect, but on turn 1 I can have 60 T6 wounds containing another 60 t3 wounds right at their doorstep with plenty of points left over for my bike bomb and abberants springing up later. If I were to take 120 acolytes I would be gifting my opponent with 2 turns of initiative to spread out and decide where the battle takes place. I also end up blocking my own models, 120 32mm bases is an enormous footprint. 20 man squads are overkill in my experience, they murder something if they are lucky enough to make it in then die, usually with most of the squad unable to attack or unneeded. So far in my test games the trucks have done their job very well. Yes they die, but they are 72 points so I don't care that much, I generally blip them onto a refused flank so I can avoid a lot of their long range weapons turn 1 then I move and advance as far as I can get right in their grill. I'll use terrain to block off lanes if I can but the main goal is ground covered. I lose a lot of them and the guys inside but enough survive and the remaining trucks eat overwatch and I charge in. Using the broodsurge strat and psychic stimulus I can threat deep into their lines too if they leave a gap. The thing I like is I can move 1.1" away from any screens while my neophyte/kellermorphs ambush in behind them and fire over their shoulders and they use any HF's I pay for. It means I can knock down screens and charge through. I can still ambush in abberants using perfect ambush and bikes using lying in wait either on turn 2 or on turn 3 depending on positioning. It will look dire sometimes until they arrive but those two units can swing the game easily. The main issues I was having in the past was how easily they were zoned out because ambushing in hundreds of models is way to much of a telegraph to your opponent. You need to give them something to deal with and this is more reliable and immediate.
It's expensive though. I am fortunate enough to have 6 trucks and 3 grinders that could be run as additional trucks if I wanted. I know most folks don't have a large vehicle pool for GSC. I figured I'd be different and test that route. I am still hashing out the list and will keep you posted, but so far it is way easier to play and I don't feel like I have this anxiety about where my guys will all fit and how many CP to spend on which unit. The biggest thing I have been switching back and forth on is which cult I want to run. Rusted claw is where I am leaning but twisted helix is tempting for the abberants to double fight, I want to say rusted claw is better though since the bikes are more reliable and that creed benefits not only them but my acolytes and abberants much more. S5 acolytes are baller though.
Correct. I keep hearing folks talk about how fragile trucks are, but a truck is the same price as 10 acolytes. So your either taking 10 T6 4+ 6+++ save wounds on a single model or 10 more t3 5+ save individual wounds. So while it is a better target for AT weapons, it's miles more durable against AI guns which I see in way higher numbers.
But every truck that dies leaves a unit of acolytes stranded. A competitive enemy list would be capable of killing 3 trucks turn one and then you got 3x10 acolytes picking their nose. If the enemy get first turn then you lose 3 trucks turn 1 and another 3 trucks turn 2 with a bunch of acolytes falling out. And trucks moving forward doesn't prevent the enemy from shielding against charges so you basically try to push thru with acolytes that could just as wel deep strike.
Correct. I keep hearing folks talk about how fragile trucks are, but a truck is the same price as 10 acolytes. So your either taking 10 T6 4+ 6+++ save wounds on a single model or 10 more t3 5+ save individual wounds. So while it is a better target for AT weapons, it's miles more durable against AI guns which I see in way higher numbers.
But every truck that dies leaves a unit of acolytes stranded. A competitive enemy list would be capable of killing 3 trucks turn one and then you got 3x10 acolytes picking their nose.
And then they are no worse off than they would be if you walked them up the board to begin with. In fact, they still get to disembark 3" so technically they are cheaper.
What Corsair is saying is pretty sound to me. The comparison isnt too a deepstriking list, if you can do that and have the desire too thats what you can do, and it comes with its own set of disadvantages and advantages.
Also its one of the coolest styles you can bring to the table too, just a bonus point.
BATTALION #3 COTFAE
HQ: Patriarch
HQ: Iconward
Tr: 10 brood brothers
Tr: 10 brood brothers
Tr: 10 brood brothers
Hs: 3x heavy weapon squad with mortars
Hs: 3x heavy weapon squad with mortars
Hs: 3x heavy weapon squad with mortars
REINFORCEMENT POINTS: 40
'Red' units would be deployed using blieps. So I add another 3 blieps with the scanner decoy stratagem. That gives me 12 blieps. I divide the blieps at both corners in the backfield. I could put one bliep in the middle close to an objective.
If the enemy player get first turn the would't know which corner my units emerge. Even a custodes jetbike that moves midfield and moves towards a particular corner second turn would not being able to rapid fire.
After the enemies movement phase (lets assume he gets first turn). . I deploy my units at the most convenient corner behind cover. 3 big acolyte units get's put in cult ambush reserves. (the came from below stratagem). The big 20 acolyte hand flamer unit get's deployed.
I deploy a single unit at the other corner for claiming an objective next turn. Could also do this in the middle.
Turn 1: I return my 20 hand flamer unit 'back into the shadows' and summon another 10 brood brother infantry squad unit with telepathic summoning. Could drop these onto an objective or create a speed bump to push back enemy models, but for know I just drop them with my 'corner bunch'. I just shoot with the mortars.
Turn 2 enemy player: take incoming fire.
Turn 2 GSC: Let's assume that the enemy player got enough bubble wrap to protect their juicy units. I could remove the bubble wrap with 20 handflamer acolytes that combine perfect ambush and lying in wait and drop 40xd6 flamer hits on a bunch of bubblewrap units.
I could also lying in wait the handflamers and drop another acolyte unit with perfect Ambush. Could try to tri-pod a unit and lock it in close combat:
Deploy 9 inch away from enemy unit.
Perfect ambush: result movement: 4
Charge with 7 (+1 with COTFAE) Model get's within 1 inch at the back and the rest conga-line all the way towards the back.
Pile in 3 inch closer, in a way that only 1 model is within 1 inch. You could use a demolition charge model for that because the got no rending claw anymore.
Kill one model.
Consolidate closer and lock in two models. The whole congaling consolidates within base to base.
You can also combine this with a character and a 'lurk in the shadows' infantry unit (blue markers). Infantry unit in cover cannot be targeted because of the close combat unit. And the characters are safe behind them.
But let's just assume I simply drop in the handflamers units and flame double time.
Meanwhile I put the patriarch 'back into the shadows' and drop in an acolyte unit with rock saws backfield. The get ready to go back into the shadows next turn and dropping in turn 4 with perfect ambush.
Turn 3 enemy: take incoming fire.
Turn 3 GSC: Okay, I drop in with my characters and brood brother units + second flamer unit (+5 demolition charges) and one perfect ambush rock saw unit. If I still got to deal with bubblewrap I could also first perfect ambush + lying in wait the handflamer unit and remove the bubblewrap and deploy the whole bunch closer towards the juicy units. But then I got no perfect ambush anymore so I might need more rock saw units to try to get in close combat.
I could drop another rock saw unit in the backfield so that I could try to let it 'get back into the shadow turn 4. and drop in turn 5 with perfect ambush.
Meanwhile In the back my rock saw unit get's 'back into the shadows' for a 'perfect ambush turn 4.
Enemy turn 4: take incoming fire. I got 70+ models standing in front of the characters so the would survive.
After turn 4: My patriarch's are getting into the fight backed up with another rock saw unit.
So basically I make the enemies shooting as ineffective as possible for two turns as I am chipping away the bubble wrap to make sure I can reach the juicy stuff at turn 3. The enemies army needs to crumble after turn 3 and moving in for the kill at turn 4 and 5. Off course it got weaknesses. It is hard against really fast units or really big infantry units that could keep pushing my army back not giving my any ground. Also need to sacrifice units so that is not always helpful in specific missions.
Thanks shogun! It's great to see some real tactics discussion, this is very useful.
I tried to have a count up and I dont, think you have enough cp for all the stratagems you planned. (I know what you were showing was just hypothetical though, and maybe I counted wrong.)
Really nice to see the deployment pictures and other pictures, I'll be putting this to good use in my next few games.
Kapitan Montag wrote: I tried to have a count up and I dont, think you have enough cp for all the stratagems you planned. (I know what you were showing was just hypothetical though, and maybe I counted wrong.)
I got:
basic = 3
3x battallion = 15
d3 CP with inscrutable cunning = average 2 (forgot to mention this).
Nexos = 1 CP each round (average) but might be harder to get at round 1 and 2 with no primus and or clamavus on the table.
So about 24..
Pre battle
field commander: 1
Broodsurge: 1
Extra relic: 1
First turn: summoning: 2
Return to the shadows: 1
second turn: Lying in wait : 2
perfect ambush: 3
Third turn:
Lying in wait : 2
perfect ambush: 3
Return to the shadows: 1
Fourth turn:
perfect ambush: 3
Return to the shadows: 1
Fifth turn:
perfect ambush: 3
also 24..
But it really depends on the flow of the battle and if you really need that fifth turn perfect ambush. Probably use these CP for reroll dice and/or broodsurge stratagem.
Aha - thanks shogun that works. I had forgotten about inscrutable cunning and the nexos. - my nexos seems to be only good for 1 cp a game, so I try not to rely on him!
Speaking of trucks, I've been thinking about running a few Neophyte trucker squads with a Jackal Alphus to add to the first-turn board presence.
As Bladed Cog troops, they can move and fire their mining lasers without penalty, and combined with a Jackal Alphus's Priority Target, all the troop weapons become BS 3+. Before degrading, the truck autocannons and stubber gets BS 4+ on the move, and the demo cache becomes a 3+.
The truck isn't tough to kill by any means, but it does offer extra protection and mobility for the squad it's transporting. Both the truck and the neophytes have a 6++ — which isn't dependable at all — but that's an extra wound saved if it works. Even when it blows up, the surviving neophytes will at the very least have two grenade launchers and two shorter-ranged lascannons that hit on 3's or 4's to throw into the mix — which seems nice for just basic troops — and if they're being targeted that means your opponent is throwing their firepower at your cheapest troops and their transports rather than other, more valuable units.
I think the demo cache is what turns the Goliath into a threatening weapons platform though. If you can get a truck within 6" of the enemy, it gains the equivalent of a Russ Battle Cannon in addition to its already decent loadout. That's certainly a big 'IF', because they have to make it from your deployment zone to the frontlines — but again the threat of that demo cache combined with the rest makes it much more likely that your opponent can't simply ignore the trucks after Turn 1. I don't consider them proper distraction carnifexes because of their low survivability — but they seem to offer a lot for just 10 troops and a transport. It's total firepower would be:
Khorzain wrote: Speaking of trucks, I've been thinking about running a few Neophyte trucker squads with a Jackal Alphus to add to the first-turn board presence.
As Bladed Cog troops, they can move and fire their mining lasers without penalty, and combined with a Jackal Alphus's Priority Target, all the troop weapons become BS 3+. Before degrading, the truck autocannons and stubber gets BS 4+ on the move, and the demo cache becomes a 3+.
The truck isn't tough to kill by any means, but it does offer extra protection and mobility for the squad it's transporting. Both the truck and the neophytes have a 6++ — which isn't dependable at all — but that's an extra wound saved if it works. Even when it blows up, the surviving neophytes will at the very least have two grenade launchers and two shorter-ranged lascannons that hit on 3's or 4's to throw into the mix — which seems nice for just basic troops — and if they're being targeted that means your opponent is throwing their firepower at your cheapest troops and their transports rather than other, more valuable units.
I think the demo cache is what turns the Goliath into a threatening weapons platform though. If you can get a truck within 6" of the enemy, it gains the equivalent of a Russ Battle Cannon in addition to its already decent loadout. That's certainly a big 'IF', because they have to make it from your deployment zone to the frontlines — but again the threat of that demo cache combined with the rest makes it much more likely that your opponent can't simply ignore the trucks after Turn 1. I don't consider them proper distraction carnifexes because of their low survivability — but they seem to offer a lot for just 10 troops and a transport. It's total firepower would be:
Does this seem like a good investment for 162 points per truck+squad?
I have 2 Trucks I like to use with this exact loadout. Wile they have been wiped turn one on several occasions they have always done something worthwhile (even if it's just sucking up an inordinate amount of incoming fire) I have had a pair chain explode and severely wound 2 Costodies bikers so the Neos inside could finish them.
Following on the Truck thought, has anyone tried just jamming as may laser Neophytes in Trucks as possible? Combine that with a bike sniper or two, a Saw/Aberant drop and some drill trucks, and you have a lot of reasonably durable, cheap board presence.
Does the demo cache use the BS of the truck or the BS of the embarked models? I know it references BS0 for who cannot use it, but the way I read the description, it looks like it counts as a truck weapon 'activated' by having a passenger, rather than the passenger actually firing it. Makes a big difference after having taken damage!
hangnailnz wrote: Does the demo cache use the BS of the truck or the BS of the embarked models? I know it references BS0 for who cannot use it, but the way I read the description, it looks like it counts as a truck weapon 'activated' by having a passenger, rather than the passenger actually firing it. Makes a big difference after having taken damage!
It's a weapon used by the Truck that needs passengers, so it always uses the Truck BS (which worsens it)
I use 3 trucks every game with my cult and they are great units which are actually surprisingly tough to kill. I like to use my trucks as pillboxes rather then assault vehicles and I have found they can throw out a lot of anti infantry firepower, which is great for clearing away enemy screens.
I use a battalion of Hivecult as my starting forces on the board and my deepstriking units are C4E. The hive cult battalion has 3 neo squads with 2x heavy stubber, 2x grenade launcher and 6x rifles in each squad. I have 3x trucks with heavy stubber and twin autocannon (no demo cache), 2x ridge runner with 2x stubber, HML and flares each. I then take a Jackal Alphus and a Broodcoven Magus with the Hivelord Trait (reroll 1s in shooting with 6").
I castle everything with 6" of the 2 characters and this gives me +1 to hit against a target and reroll ones on all the units. I can also pop Chilling efficiency for another +1 to hit (either on another enemy unit to get 3+ to hit against more then 1 target, or to get my units hitting on 2s rerollings against the same unit the Jackal Alphus designated). I often use Chilling Efficiency as it means the passengers get +1 hit, as they dont benefit from the Magus or Jackals buffs.
This means I have in total 39 heavy stubber shots, 6 autocannon, 18 autogun, 6x frag grenade launchers (average 21 shots) and average of 4 HML shots, hitting on 2s and 3s with reroll 1s, to clear out enemy screens.
I have tried this tactic without the trucks and just running more infantry and it is not as good. More shooty neophytes just melt away and then I have also spend points on a patriarch to stop them from running. Trucks are tough little guys and because I am staying back I can avoid quite a lot of damage, I rarely loose 2x trucks in my first turn, normally 1 dies and 1 takes half wounds.
FYI I know this castle is at rick from getting tied up, so I tend to use 3x cheap squads of broodbroothers to screen out the enemy
I use 3 trucks every game with my cult and they are great units which are actually surprisingly tough to kill. I like to use my trucks as pillboxes rather then assault vehicles and I have found they can throw out a lot of anti infantry firepower, which is great for clearing away enemy screens.
I use a battalion of Hivecult as my starting forces on the board and my deepstriking units are C4E. The hive cult battalion has 3 neo squads with 2x heavy stubber, 2x grenade launcher and 6x rifles in each squad. I have 3x trucks with heavy stubber and twin autocannon (no demo cache), 2x ridge runner with 2x stubber, HML and flares each. I then take a Jackal Alphus and a Broodcoven Magus with the Hivelord Trait (reroll 1s in shooting with 6").
I castle everything with 6" of the 2 characters and this gives me +1 to hit against a target and reroll ones on all the units. I can also pop Chilling efficiency for another +1 to hit (either on another enemy unit to get 3+ to hit against more then 1 target, or to get my units hitting on 2s rerollings against the same unit the Jackal Alphus designated). I often use Chilling Efficiency as it means the passengers get +1 hit, as they dont benefit from the Magus or Jackals buffs.
This means I have in total 39 heavy stubber shots, 6 autocannon, 18 autogun, 6x frag grenade launchers (average 21 shots) and average of 4 HML shots, hitting on 2s and 3s with reroll 1s, to clear out enemy screens.
I have tried this tactic without the trucks and just running more infantry and it is not as good. More shooty neophytes just melt away and then I have also spend points on a patriarch to stop them from running. Trucks are tough little guys and because I am staying back I can avoid quite a lot of damage, I rarely loose 2x trucks in my first turn, normally 1 dies and 1 takes half wounds.
FYI I know this castle is at rick from getting tied up, so I tend to use 3x cheap squads of broodbroothers to screen out the enemy
I wouldn't honestly consider trucks are "tough to kill". They're worse than a chimera/rhino in that aspect and their really forbidden from moving to shoot since they got BS 4+ at best without movement and buffs
I use 3 trucks every game with my cult and they are great units which are actually surprisingly tough to kill. I like to use my trucks as pillboxes rather then assault vehicles and I have found they can throw out a lot of anti infantry firepower, which is great for clearing away enemy screens.
I use a battalion of Hivecult as my starting forces on the board and my deepstriking units are C4E. The hive cult battalion has 3 neo squads with 2x heavy stubber, 2x grenade launcher and 6x rifles in each squad. I have 3x trucks with heavy stubber and twin autocannon (no demo cache), 2x ridge runner with 2x stubber, HML and flares each. I then take a Jackal Alphus and a Broodcoven Magus with the Hivelord Trait (reroll 1s in shooting with 6").
I castle everything with 6" of the 2 characters and this gives me +1 to hit against a target and reroll ones on all the units. I can also pop Chilling efficiency for another +1 to hit (either on another enemy unit to get 3+ to hit against more then 1 target, or to get my units hitting on 2s rerollings against the same unit the Jackal Alphus designated). I often use Chilling Efficiency as it means the passengers get +1 hit, as they dont benefit from the Magus or Jackals buffs.
This means I have in total 39 heavy stubber shots, 6 autocannon, 18 autogun, 6x frag grenade launchers (average 21 shots) and average of 4 HML shots, hitting on 2s and 3s with reroll 1s, to clear out enemy screens.
I have tried this tactic without the trucks and just running more infantry and it is not as good. More shooty neophytes just melt away and then I have also spend points on a patriarch to stop them from running. Trucks are tough little guys and because I am staying back I can avoid quite a lot of damage, I rarely loose 2x trucks in my first turn, normally 1 dies and 1 takes half wounds.
FYI I know this castle is at rick from getting tied up, so I tend to use 3x cheap squads of broodbroothers to screen out the enemy
I wouldn't honestly consider trucks are "tough to kill". They're worse than a chimera/rhino in that aspect and their really forbidden from moving to shoot since they got BS 4+ at best without movement and buffs
All I can say is try it out for yourself I tend to find that the trucks are only really threatened on turn 1, after that the threat overload comes in and they quickly drop down your opponents target priority list. My last couple of games I have had trucks which lasted the whole game consistently pumped out a high rate of fire and did good damage
I just want to say, this is a really intensive army to play. Not necessarily a bad thing but after my last 9 or so games I realize I need a couple of games with my AM/Knights as a break. Whether it’s the super complicated decision trees regarding where/when to put my drops (and then where to put my aura buffs and charge buffs), or just the process of taking out and putting away 120+ infantry models. It’s fun but exhausting.
Gordoape wrote: I just want to say, this is a really intensive army to play. Not necessarily a bad thing but after my last 9 or so games I realize I need a couple of games with my AM/Knights as a break. Whether it’s the super complicated decision trees regarding where/when to put my drops (and then where to put my aura buffs and charge buffs), or just the process of taking out and putting away 120+ infantry models. It’s fun but exhausting.
youre right on that. It's hard mode 40k, but rewards good players. Reminds me of old Dark Eldar - completely different playstyle, but glass cannon that good players could use to great effect.
It's also exhausting to paint. It's a horde army except every model is super detailed. First World problems I know, but seriously I feel like my Cultists painted up just look so cool, probably the coolest models I own, but it's slow progress getting them there
Gordoape wrote: I just want to say, this is a really intensive army to play. Not necessarily a bad thing but after my last 9 or so games I realize I need a couple of games with my AM/Knights as a break. Whether it’s the super complicated decision trees regarding where/when to put my drops (and then where to put my aura buffs and charge buffs), or just the process of taking out and putting away 120+ infantry models. It’s fun but exhausting.
I know the feeling. To minimise this problem I do the following things;
In a tournament I got a stand with a moving tray so that I don't need to put the models on or under the table.
I use movement tray's for all my units.
All my units got their own color, also going to put that color on the edge of their bases.
I use cups with specific amount of dices each with their own color. If I shoot with 20xd6 handflamers and got 65 hits, I would just simply pick 2x 30 cups and 5 separate dice.
My characters got metal pins with paperclip's on top so I can mark them with little cards (psychic powers, aura buffs, relics etc.).
Also, I keep away from 'time consuming stuff'. For example; I don't give my small unit of neophytes stubbers. Might be a good deal but I don't want to include 'different dice/shots'. Just keep it simple and shoot with the autoguns.
I'm also going to get a chess clock for my next tournament. My enemy players take more time dealing with my army then the other way around.
Gordoape wrote: I just want to say, this is a really intensive army to play. Not necessarily a bad thing but after my last 9 or so games I realize I need a couple of games with my AM/Knights as a break. Whether it’s the super complicated decision trees regarding where/when to put my drops (and then where to put my aura buffs and charge buffs), or just the process of taking out and putting away 120+ infantry models. It’s fun but exhausting.
I know the feeling. To minimise this problem I do the following things;
In a tournament I got a stand with a moving tray so that I don't need to put the models on or under the table.
I use movement tray's for all my units.
All my units got their own color, also going to put that color on the edge of their bases.
I use cups with specific amount of dices each with their own color. If I shoot with 20xd6 handflamers and got 65 hits, I would just simply pick 2x 30 cups and 5 separate dice.
My characters got metal pins with paperclip's on top so I can mark them with little cards (psychic powers, aura buffs, relics etc.).
Also, I keep away from 'time consuming stuff'. For example; I don't give my small unit of neophytes stubbers. Might be a good deal but I don't want to include 'different dice/shots'. Just keep it simple and shoot with the autoguns.
I'm also going to get a chess clock for my next tournament. My enemy players take more time dealing with my army then the other way around.
That is good advice. I have been especially thinking about marking the colored bases to make organizing all my 65 acolytes into units easier once I unpack them.
Have to admit I don't totally understand how movement trays work. Isn't it impossible to get ideal positioning when you use them?
It just makes ferrying them around from your case/display board to the table faster when deploying. Usually after a movement phase or two mine are off theirs. I currently only have them for 25mm models though, I need to buy some for 32mm models. Just using them to deploy will save you a ton of time. It also helps keep them organized.
wighti wrote:One quick note, you cannot summon BB's with telepathic summons. Only <cult> infantry or biker units.
Ah yea thats right, thanks! Just need to reserve another 10 points and go for the neophytes.
Gordoape wrote: Have to admit I don't totally understand how movement trays work. Isn't it impossible to get ideal positioning when you use them?
Red Corsair wrote:It just makes ferrying them around from your case/display board to the table faster when deploying. Usually after a movement phase or two mine are off theirs. I currently only have them for 25mm models though, I need to buy some for 32mm models. Just using them to deploy will save you a ton of time. It also helps keep them organized.
I just use flat thin boards with a pin as a handle. Indeed, easy to drop them down on the field and take them off (return to the shadows). I'am going to put magnet plates on the boards and on the bases to make sure the don't fall off so easily. I'am also going to mark my movement tray/stand with coloured squares so that I can put my casualties at their own color. This help's organising all the models in the end.
I also got a manual for my opponents that don't know a lot about GSC. Just a simply description of how my army works; psychic powers, stratagems, cult ambush, aura buffs. This saves time on the questions because I can just say; 'read the thing, dude'. Meanwhile I already deploy my markers and punch the chess clock and say; you can deploy your whole army and take your time.
A couple other examples of the organization and bookkeeping with these guys:
-I run brood brothers both in GSC and AM detachments, so I need to remember which of the identical models can take orders.
-Explaining which guys are "on the battlefield" when I place my blips, counting half my points, and then when I put 3 blips back into deepstrike remembering which ones can come in turn 4 or later. And that's not even mentioning the strategy behind those decisions, which has huge implications and is not easy!
Not complaining at all, this stuff is fun (well maybe I'm complaining about the Orders a little) but I'm still working on my organizational systems for this stuff. Improving though.
Gordoape wrote: A couple other examples of the organization and bookkeeping with these guys:
-I run brood brothers both in GSC and AM detachments, so I need to remember which of the identical models can take orders.
-Explaining which guys are "on the battlefield" when I place my blips, counting half my points, and then when I put 3 blips back into deepstrike remembering which ones can come in turn 4 or later. And that's not even mentioning the strategy behind those decisions, which has huge implications and is not easy!
Not complaining at all, this stuff is fun (well maybe I'm complaining about the Orders a little) but I'm still working on my organizational systems for this stuff. Improving though.
I also use a lot of pokerchip markers. I got pokerchips with tape on it and I use a whiteboard marker, and write down the wounds. Also a marker for my 'reroll a hit,wound or save once a game' WL trait and the primus 'reroll 1 to wound for an enemy unit once set up'.
I think the most important thing to remember is; don't do small stuff that doesn't have an impact in the game on the long run. I'am not going to shoot with autopistols at a tank commander because my rock saws need their charge to succeed to finish it off, and if the fail then that single wound is not going to make a difference. It is more important that I get to turn 4/5.
Khorzain wrote: Does the Jackal Alphus's 'Priority Target' buff apply to the Neophytes while they're inside the Goliath Truck?
Or do they have to disembark to get the +1 to hit?
They have to disembark
Wrong.
Well, kinda.
The +1 affects the Truck, which passes the bonus on to the people inside. So the Neophytes aren't DIRECTLY affected, but they still get the +1.
The hell are you talking about? It doesn't work like that because models in transports are not on the battlefield (even though the open topped like rule just allows them to shoot with their weapons)
Khorzain wrote: Does the Jackal Alphus's 'Priority Target' buff apply to the Neophytes while they're inside the Goliath Truck?
Or do they have to disembark to get the +1 to hit?
They have to disembark
Wrong.
Well, kinda.
The +1 affects the Truck, which passes the bonus on to the people inside. So the Neophytes aren't DIRECTLY affected, but they still get the +1.
The hell are you talking about? It doesn't work like that because models in transports are not on the battlefield (even though the open topped like rule just allows them to shoot with their weapons)
Modifiers that apply to the transport apply to the occupants.
Khorzain wrote: Does the Jackal Alphus's 'Priority Target' buff apply to the Neophytes while they're inside the Goliath Truck?
Or do they have to disembark to get the +1 to hit?
They have to disembark
Wrong.
Well, kinda.
The +1 affects the Truck, which passes the bonus on to the people inside. So the Neophytes aren't DIRECTLY affected, but they still get the +1.
The hell are you talking about? It doesn't work like that because models in transports are not on the battlefield (even though the open topped like rule just allows them to shoot with their weapons)
Modifiers that apply to the transport apply to the occupants.
So I’ve been toying around with a triple det list: it’s for an upcoming tourney that uses CA/BRB missions and is not mega competitive, but it’s my first one so I’d like to do well. I know it’s not super optimal but I have a limit on time to prepare and available models.
Shadowsword [26 PL, 492pts]: Twin heavy bolter
. 2 Lascannon & Twin Heavy Bolter Sponsons: 2x Lascannon, 2x Twin heavy bolter
++ Total: [115 PL, 2,000pts] ++
Some plus points: a big gun to shoot at knights etc. Some lascannons, mining lasers and plasma cannons available turn one to help whittle down armour and monsters. Deepstriking jackals and plasma can target things turn 2. Plenty of anti horde with punisher, devilgaunts and flamers.
Cons: use of infestation nodes to protect the stealers turn 1 is less than ideal but a nice counterpunch. Devilgaunts lack delivery but can be onslaughted to get up the board. It relies on quite a lot coming in turn 2 and thus the rest surviving but I just don’t have time or funds to buy/paint an acolyte horde.
I’d really appreciate any tweaks or observations that I might have missed. Thanks!
Hey folks, just thought I’d chime in and mention that I tried the Pauper Princes/Heavy Rock Drill list I was mathhammering and going on about a few pages ago.
I played the unit against a Craftworld Eldar list with multiple flyers, shadow specters, windriders, reapers, farseer, etc. it was a pretty mean list, and my own list had some problems unrelated to the drillers. I ended up losing the match, but it was very tight and I could probably have won, but my opponent misplayed and forgot to bring in his guardian bomb by turn 3, and I felt bad and let him bring it in on turn 4 because I didn’t want to be a dick. Anyway, that guardian bomb really swung the game, vaporizing a large acolyte unit in one round of shooting. I went second, so if it had come in turn I would have been able to charge it out of deep strike.
Back on topic, the drillers were amazing. A unit of 10 with 4 drills and the broodsurge strat aced a Wave Serpent in a single round of drill attacks - I didn’t even have to roll the rending claw attacks. I didn’t have Might up (failed the roll :(), but was still able to get each driller to push one unsaved wound through with the 3+ reroll to hit, wounding on 2s. Exactly 4 wounds went through and the mortal wounds took care of the rest.
Asmodas wrote: Hey folks, just thought I’d chime in and mention that I tried the Pauper Princes/Heavy Rock Drill list I was mathhammering and going on about a few pages ago.
I played the unit against a Craftworld Eldar list with multiple flyers, shadow specters, windriders, reapers, farseer, etc. it was a pretty mean list, and my own list had some problems unrelated to the drillers. I ended up losing the match, but it was very tight and I could probably have won, but my opponent misplayed and forgot to bring in his guardian bomb by turn 3, and I felt bad and let him bring it in on turn 4 because I didn’t want to be a dick. Anyway, that guardian bomb really swung the game, vaporizing a large acolyte unit in one round of shooting. I went second, so if it had come in turn I would have been able to charge it out of deep strike.
Back on topic, the drillers were amazing. A unit of 10 with 4 drills and the broodsurge strat aced a Wave Serpent in a single round of drill attacks - I didn’t even have to roll the rending claw attacks. I didn’t have Might up (failed the roll :(), but was still able to get each driller to push one unsaved wound through with the 3+ reroll to hit, wounding on 2s. Exactly 4 wounds went through and the mortal wounds took care of the rest.
Yeah.... and 4 Saw's average the 13 wounds at 2/3 of the cost.
You really should double check the other side of the math before posting about how great drills are.
Asmodas wrote: Hey folks, just thought I’d chime in and mention that I tried the Pauper Princes/Heavy Rock Drill list I was mathhammering and going on about a few pages ago.
I played the unit against a Craftworld Eldar list with multiple flyers, shadow specters, windriders, reapers, farseer, etc. it was a pretty mean list, and my own list had some problems unrelated to the drillers. I ended up losing the match, but it was very tight and I could probably have won, but my opponent misplayed and forgot to bring in his guardian bomb by turn 3, and I felt bad and let him bring it in on turn 4 because I didn’t want to be a dick. Anyway, that guardian bomb really swung the game, vaporizing a large acolyte unit in one round of shooting. I went second, so if it had come in turn I would have been able to charge it out of deep strike.
Back on topic, the drillers were amazing. A unit of 10 with 4 drills and the broodsurge strat aced a Wave Serpent in a single round of drill attacks - I didn’t even have to roll the rending claw attacks. I didn’t have Might up (failed the roll :(), but was still able to get each driller to push one unsaved wound through with the 3+ reroll to hit, wounding on 2s. Exactly 4 wounds went through and the mortal wounds took care of the rest.
Yeah.... and 4 Saw's average the 13 wounds at 2/3 of the cost.
You really should double check the other side of the math before posting about how great drills are.
Ouch, that seems unduly harsh. A lot to unpack here:
First, I take it you did not read, or do not remember, any of my prior posts on the subject. That's fine - it was a while ago. In those posts, I wrote that I wanted to give the drills a go and see how they did compared to Saws as an experiment. Thus, I am just reporting back, as I promised to do, and I was satisfied with the unit’s in-game performance during the test run. No need to jump down my throat - if you aren’t interested in trying the unit, that’s fine, but I am not trying to mislead anyone here.
Second, I was running both a drill unit and a large saw unit. I don't see the two units as necessarily competing, but rather complementary. Due to their varying damage mechanisms, the two units have slightly different target profiles - saws are great against vehicles without invulns and certain types of multi-wound infantry (particularly 2 wound infantry, such as primaris), whereas drills are better against tanks and, particularly, vehicles and monsters with invulns and/or very high wound totals. Using both also allows you to build out two anti-tank acolyte units without having to go third party or do conversions, and the rock drill model is pretty nice looking too (probably not a major consideration for everyone, but it can be nice to have some variety in the way your models look), and then you can choose the unit for your deep strike depending on what kinds of targets are available.
We are also not really talking about a lot of points here. Running 4 drills only cost me an extra 28 points over another saw unit - which I couldn't have fielded anyway, since I only have 8 saws. The drill unit is 138 points, which is only ~25% more than a 10 man, 4 saw unit (look, I can play games with statistics, too!). I am willing to pay that small premium over saws given the drills' unique capabilities.
It is also extremely expensive (real world $) to build out multiple units of Rock Saw acolytes. One of the most common questions posted in this thread and its predecessors, which has been repeatedly answered time and again, is new GSC players coming here to find out where to get extra saw bitz/what to use to convert them, and building a few drill acolytes in addition to your saw acolytes is a decent way of giving your list some variety and bulking out your melee anti-tank. I was able to build 5 driller acolytes out of my bitz box (since I've already bought the acolyte box 8 times!) for about $10 extra, as all I needed was a single set of 5 acolyte legs from ebay.
Finally, I do not appreciate your unfounded (and incorrect) assertion that I did not do the math to compare the units. If you go back to my posts a few pages back, you will find that I have already been challenged by other posters on the rock saw/rock drill points difference, and was very cognizant of this issue. I provided an extensive statistical analysis comparing the two weapons including comparing the damage per point values of both units and, without rehashing the whole thing, the difference in damage per point is not really that significant. Now, to be fair, you really do need to build your list to support the drillers since you have to maximize the odds that each driller is going to push through at least one unsaved wound so you can trigger the mortal wounds jackpot round - hence the Pauper Princes trait, Broodsurge Strat, and attempted casting of Might. That means Saws are easier to slot into a list (although it is worth noting that rock saw acolytes typically require strat/psyker support too), but that doesn't not mean that Drills suck - they just require some extra thought to get the most out of them. When properly supported and used against their ideal targets, Drills actually exceed Saw units in terms of average damage per point.
I also can't help but notice that, despite accusing me of not doing the math, you did not post any math in support of your own argument that 4 saws do an average of 13 damage to a Wave Serpent. I just ran the numbers and your assertion is not true.
Under identical conditions (Pauper Princes trait granting a re-roll to hit, Broodsurge stratagem granting +1 to wound, but no extra attacks from Might from Beyond, and ignoring all of the rest of the squad's rending claw attacks), both units get an average of 7.1 hits = (8 x .666.) + .666(8 - (8 x .666)
Both units are wounding on a 2+, so that translates into 5.92 wounds. The Wave Serpent gets a 6+ save, so both units are causing about 4.93 unsaved wounds (I am ignoring Spirit Stones and other FNP types abilities for the moment since the WS in question didn't have one, but it should be noted that FNP-type abilities are generally not considered a "save," and thus wouldn't stop the drill's special rule from triggering).
4.93 wounds with the saw turns into an average of 9.86 wounds. Hmmm... that number doesn't seem to be 13, like you said. Thus, with the saws, it seems you must be either counting on making up the extra ~3.14 (pi?) wounds with the rending claw attacks, or are layering some undisclosed extra buffs on your rolls that are increasing the number of wounds. With thirteen or so extra attacks, 3.14 more wounds is certainly plausible, but wouldn't have worked in this case because I was charging through a gap between enemy units, and thus could only get the drillers and a couple other acolytes in range to attack the WS. If you were, in fact, using just the saws to arrive at 13 unsaved wounds, then you are counting on the saws getting about 33% more damage than they do, on average. I haven't run the numbers, but I strongly suspect that 33% extra wounds is at least one standard deviation away from the mean. Please feel free to fill me in on how you arrived at 13 wounds, as something seems very off here.
In comparison, the drills cause the same 4.93 wounds on average. If all 4 drillers cause at least one unsaved wound (and each driller should deal, on average 1.23 unsaved wounds) , then the drill special rule triggers 4 times. The drill's mortal wounds rule does, on average, 1.77 extra wounds each time it is triggered, which is boosted to 2.07 if you are willing to use a CP to reroll a 1 if you get one in the first roll of the dice.
Thus, the average damage for the drillers is 4.93 + (2.07 +1.77 + 1.77 +1.77) = 12.31 wounds. So my drills overperformed a tiny amount when they killed the wave serpent in one swing, but I am sure you'll agree that 12.31 is much closer to 13 than 9.86.
In the actual game, I only caused 4 unsaved wounds with the drillers, but got one wound with each drill, and thus got to roll for the special rule 4 time and then got no 1's on the first roll, which I will admit was lucky as it saved me a command point, and then rolled a few more 3+ and 4+'s to finish the job (and I was overdue for some luck by that point, as my first turn shooting rolls were absolutely abysmal - I only killed 2 rangers and caused no wounds to anything else). If I had used saws, I would only have dealt 8 wounds, probably taken a few more ineffectual swings with the rending claws, and the WS would have limped away on 3 or 4 wounds next turn.
Now let's normalize the data to determine the points-efficiency of the different models. A rock driller acolyte costs 24 points and a rock saw acolyte costs 17, or about 70.8% of what the rock driller does. 12.31 wounds x .70 = 8.719 wounds. Thus, on a pure point-for-point basis, the rock drillers are slightly less points-efficient against the WS compared to the saws, but it is really close, and a lot closer than you acknowledge. Again, however, those extra points you are spending are packing more damage potential into a smaller squad, buying you the ability to deal extra wounds against very tough targets, and I believe that is an option that is sometimes (not all the time! Not in every list!) worth having. In order to reach the same expected value of ~12-13 unsaved wounds with saws, the saw unit needs two more saws, which also requires that you buy 5 more acolyte bodies to go with them. That's another 55 points, and now your unit can't fit in a Truck, is easier to zone out, and, of course, is more expensive points-wise. In the actual game, my 20 man rock saw unit did nothing and got shot off the board because there was nowhere I could set it up due to flyer bases and rangers pushing me way back. But, I was able to find a spot for the 10 man driller team.
Asmodas wrote: Hey folks, just thought I’d chime in and mention that I tried the Pauper Princes/Heavy Rock Drill list I was mathhammering and going on about a few pages ago.
I played the unit against a Craftworld Eldar list with multiple flyers, shadow specters, windriders, reapers, farseer, etc. it was a pretty mean list, and my own list had some problems unrelated to the drillers. I ended up losing the match, but it was very tight and I could probably have won, but my opponent misplayed and forgot to bring in his guardian bomb by turn 3, and I felt bad and let him bring it in on turn 4 because I didn’t want to be a dick. Anyway, that guardian bomb really swung the game, vaporizing a large acolyte unit in one round of shooting. I went second, so if it had come in turn I would have been able to charge it out of deep strike.
Back on topic, the drillers were amazing. A unit of 10 with 4 drills and the broodsurge strat aced a Wave Serpent in a single round of drill attacks - I didn’t even have to roll the rending claw attacks. I didn’t have Might up (failed the roll :(), but was still able to get each driller to push one unsaved wound through with the 3+ reroll to hit, wounding on 2s. Exactly 4 wounds went through and the mortal wounds took care of the rest.
Yeah.... and 4 Saw's average the 13 wounds at 2/3 of the cost.
You really should double check the other side of the math before posting about how great drills are.
Ouch, that seems unduly harsh. A lot to unpack here:
First, I take it you did not read, or do not remember, any of my prior posts on the subject. That's fine - it was a while ago. In those posts, I wrote that I wanted to give the drills a go and see how they did compared to Saws as an experiment. Thus, I am just reporting back, as I promised to do, and I was satisfied with the unit’s in-game performance during the test run. No need to jump down my throat - if you aren’t interested in trying the unit, that’s fine, but I am not trying to mislead anyone here.
Second, I was running both a drill unit and a large saw unit. I don't see the two units as necessarily competing, but rather complementary. Due to their varying damage mechanisms, the two units have slightly different target profiles - saws are great against vehicles without invulns and certain types of multi-wound infantry (particularly 2 wound infantry, such as primaris), whereas drills are better against tanks and, particularly, vehicles and monsters with invulns and/or very high wound totals. Using both also allows you to build out two anti-tank acolyte units without having to go third party or do conversions, and the rock drill model is pretty nice looking too (probably not a major consideration for everyone, but it can be nice to have some variety in the way your models look), and then you can choose the unit for your deep strike depending on what kinds of targets are available.
We are also not really talking about a lot of points here. Running 4 drills only cost me an extra 28 points over another saw unit - which I couldn't have fielded anyway, since I only have 8 saws. The drill unit is 138 points, which is only ~25% more than a 10 man, 4 saw unit (look, I can play games with statistics, too!). I am willing to pay that small premium over saws given the drills' unique capabilities.
It is also extremely expensive (real world $) to build out multiple units of Rock Saw acolytes. One of the most common questions posted in this thread and its predecessors, which has been repeatedly answered time and again, is new GSC players coming here to find out where to get extra saw bitz/what to use to convert them, and building a few drill acolytes in addition to your saw acolytes is a decent way of giving your list some variety and bulking out your melee anti-tank. I was able to build 5 driller acolytes out of my bitz box (since I've already bought the acolyte box 8 times!) for about $10 extra, as all I needed was a single set of 5 acolyte legs from ebay.
Finally, I do not appreciate your unfounded (and incorrect) assertion that I did not do the math to compare the units. If you go back to my posts a few pages back, you will find that I have already been challenged by other posters on the rock saw/rock drill points difference, and was very cognizant of this issue. I provided an extensive statistical analysis comparing the two weapons including comparing the damage per point values of both units and, without rehashing the whole thing, the difference in damage per point is not really that significant. Now, to be fair, you really do need to build your list to support the drillers since you have to maximize the odds that each driller is going to push through at least one unsaved wound so you can trigger the mortal wounds jackpot round - hence the Pauper Princes trait, Broodsurge Strat, and attempted casting of Might. That means Saws are easier to slot into a list (although it is worth noting that rock saw acolytes typically require strat/psyker support too), but that doesn't not mean that Drills suck - they just require some extra thought to get the most out of them. When properly supported and used against their ideal targets, Drills actually exceed Saw units in terms of average damage per point.
I also can't help but notice that, despite accusing me of not doing the math, you did not post any math in support of your own argument that 4 saws do an average of 13 damage to a Wave Serpent. I just ran the numbers and your assertion is not true.
Under identical conditions (Pauper Princes trait granting a re-roll to hit, Broodsurge stratagem granting +1 to wound, but no extra attacks from Might from Beyond, and ignoring all of the rest of the squad's rending claw attacks), both units get an average of 7.1 hits = (8 x .666.) + .666(8 - (8 x .666)
Both units are wounding on a 2+, so that translates into 5.92 wounds. The Wave Serpent gets a 6+ save, so both units are causing about 4.93 unsaved wounds (I am ignoring Spirit Stones and other FNP types abilities for the moment since the WS in question didn't have one, but it should be noted that FNP-type abilities are generally not considered a "save," and thus wouldn't stop the drill's special rule from triggering).
4.93 wounds with the saw turns into an average of 9.86 wounds. Hmmm... that number doesn't seem to be 13, like you said. Thus, with the saws, it seems you must be either counting on making up the extra ~3.14 (pi?) wounds with the rending claw attacks, or are layering some undisclosed extra buffs on your rolls that are increasing the number of wounds. With thirteen or so extra attacks, 3.14 more wounds is certainly plausible, but wouldn't have worked in this case because I was charging through a gap between enemy units, and thus could only get the drillers and a couple other acolytes in range to attack the WS. If you were, in fact, using just the saws to arrive at 13 unsaved wounds, then you are counting on the saws getting about 33% more damage than they do, on average. I haven't run the numbers, but I strongly suspect that 33% extra wounds is at least one standard deviation away from the mean. Please feel free to fill me in on how you arrived at 13 wounds, as something seems very off here.
In comparison, the drills cause the same 4.93 wounds on average. If all 4 drillers cause at least one unsaved wound (and each driller should deal, on average 1.23 unsaved wounds) , then the drill special rule triggers 4 times. The drill's mortal wounds rule does, on average, 1.77 extra wounds each time it is triggered, which is boosted to 2.07 if you are willing to use a CP to reroll a 1 if you get one in the first roll of the dice.
Thus, the average damage for the drillers is 4.93 + (2.07 +1.77 + 1.77 +1.77) = 12.31 wounds. So my drills overperformed a tiny amount when they killed the wave serpent in one swing, but I am sure you'll agree that 12.31 is much closer to 13 than 9.86.
In the actual game, I only caused 4 unsaved wounds with the drillers, but got one wound with each drill, and thus got to roll for the special rule 4 time and then got no 1's on the first roll, which I will admit was lucky as it saved me a command point, and then rolled a few more 3+ and 4+'s to finish the job (and I was overdue for some luck by that point, as my first turn shooting rolls were absolutely abysmal - I only killed 2 rangers and caused no wounds to anything else). If I had used saws, I would only have dealt 8 wounds, probably taken a few more ineffectual swings with the rending claws, and the WS would have limped away on 3 or 4 wounds next turn.
Now let's normalize the data to determine the points-efficiency of the different models. A rock driller acolyte costs 24 points and a rock saw acolyte costs 17, or about 70.8% of what the rock driller does. 12.31 wounds x .70 = 8.719 wounds. Thus, on a pure point-for-point basis, the rock drillers are slightly less points-efficient against the WS compared to the saws, but it is really close, and a lot closer than you acknowledge. Again, however, those extra points you are spending are packing more damage potential into a smaller squad, buying you the ability to deal extra wounds against very tough targets, and I believe that is an option that is sometimes (not all the time! Not in every list!) worth having. In order to reach the same expected value of ~12-13 unsaved wounds with saws, the saw unit needs two more saws, which also requires that you buy 5 more acolyte bodies to go with them. That's another 55 points, and now your unit can't fit in a Truck, is easier to zone out, and, of course, is more expensive points-wise. In the actual game, my 20 man rock saw unit did nothing and got shot off the board because there was nowhere I could set it up due to flyer bases and rangers pushing me way back. But, I was able to find a spot for the 10 man driller team.
Have a great rest of your day.
You can do a lot of math to see what's the average result but I would never take a drill over a rocksaw. I don't like the random effect in combination with the 7+ points each . I always pick a patriarch with croughling and might from beyond so it should work a lot of the times. Also, always take the +1 Strength icon so with the broodsurge stratagem my rocksaws would almost always hit (primus + icon) and wound. That's why I like to use 15 acolytes with 5 rock saws + icon. It can do the perfect amount of damage against a single knight or two tanks/MC. I can choose how many units i'am going to assault after the psychic phase depending on a successful or failed 'might from beyond'.
But when I roll 6 attacks (3x drill) against a target with all these upgrades but (without might from beyond) most times I get an average of 13 wounds. For that same price I could get 5 rock saws that almost deal a solid 18 damage.
Asmodas wrote: Hey folks, just thought I’d chime in and mention that I tried the Pauper Princes/Heavy Rock Drill list I was mathhammering and going on about a few pages ago.
I played the unit against a Craftworld Eldar list with multiple flyers, shadow specters, windriders, reapers, farseer, etc. it was a pretty mean list, and my own list had some problems unrelated to the drillers. I ended up losing the match, but it was very tight and I could probably have won, but my opponent misplayed and forgot to bring in his guardian bomb by turn 3, and I felt bad and let him bring it in on turn 4 because I didn’t want to be a dick. Anyway, that guardian bomb really swung the game, vaporizing a large acolyte unit in one round of shooting. I went second, so if it had come in turn I would have been able to charge it out of deep strike.
Back on topic, the drillers were amazing. A unit of 10 with 4 drills and the broodsurge strat aced a Wave Serpent in a single round of drill attacks - I didn’t even have to roll the rending claw attacks. I didn’t have Might up (failed the roll :(), but was still able to get each driller to push one unsaved wound through with the 3+ reroll to hit, wounding on 2s. Exactly 4 wounds went through and the mortal wounds took care of the rest.
Yeah.... and 4 Saw's average the 13 wounds at 2/3 of the cost.
You really should double check the other side of the math before posting about how great drills are.
Ouch, that seems unduly harsh. A lot to unpack here:
First, I take it you did not read, or do not remember, any of my prior posts on the subject. That's fine - it was a while ago. In those posts, I wrote that I wanted to give the drills a go and see how they did compared to Saws as an experiment. Thus, I am just reporting back, as I promised to do, and I was satisfied with the unit’s in-game performance during the test run. No need to jump down my throat - if you aren’t interested in trying the unit, that’s fine, but I am not trying to mislead anyone here.
Second, I was running both a drill unit and a large saw unit. I don't see the two units as necessarily competing, but rather complementary. Due to their varying damage mechanisms, the two units have slightly different target profiles - saws are great against vehicles without invulns and certain types of multi-wound infantry (particularly 2 wound infantry, such as primaris), whereas drills are better against tanks and, particularly, vehicles and monsters with invulns and/or very high wound totals. Using both also allows you to build out two anti-tank acolyte units without having to go third party or do conversions, and the rock drill model is pretty nice looking too (probably not a major consideration for everyone, but it can be nice to have some variety in the way your models look), and then you can choose the unit for your deep strike depending on what kinds of targets are available.
We are also not really talking about a lot of points here. Running 4 drills only cost me an extra 28 points over another saw unit - which I couldn't have fielded anyway, since I only have 8 saws. The drill unit is 138 points, which is only ~25% more than a 10 man, 4 saw unit (look, I can play games with statistics, too!). I am willing to pay that small premium over saws given the drills' unique capabilities.
It is also extremely expensive (real world $) to build out multiple units of Rock Saw acolytes. One of the most common questions posted in this thread and its predecessors, which has been repeatedly answered time and again, is new GSC players coming here to find out where to get extra saw bitz/what to use to convert them, and building a few drill acolytes in addition to your saw acolytes is a decent way of giving your list some variety and bulking out your melee anti-tank. I was able to build 5 driller acolytes out of my bitz box (since I've already bought the acolyte box 8 times!) for about $10 extra, as all I needed was a single set of 5 acolyte legs from ebay.
Finally, I do not appreciate your unfounded (and incorrect) assertion that I did not do the math to compare the units. If you go back to my posts a few pages back, you will find that I have already been challenged by other posters on the rock saw/rock drill points difference, and was very cognizant of this issue. I provided an extensive statistical analysis comparing the two weapons including comparing the damage per point values of both units and, without rehashing the whole thing, the difference in damage per point is not really that significant. Now, to be fair, you really do need to build your list to support the drillers since you have to maximize the odds that each driller is going to push through at least one unsaved wound so you can trigger the mortal wounds jackpot round - hence the Pauper Princes trait, Broodsurge Strat, and attempted casting of Might. That means Saws are easier to slot into a list (although it is worth noting that rock saw acolytes typically require strat/psyker support too), but that doesn't not mean that Drills suck - they just require some extra thought to get the most out of them. When properly supported and used against their ideal targets, Drills actually exceed Saw units in terms of average damage per point.
I also can't help but notice that, despite accusing me of not doing the math, you did not post any math in support of your own argument that 4 saws do an average of 13 damage to a Wave Serpent. I just ran the numbers and your assertion is not true.
Under identical conditions (Pauper Princes trait granting a re-roll to hit, Broodsurge stratagem granting +1 to wound, but no extra attacks from Might from Beyond, and ignoring all of the rest of the squad's rending claw attacks), both units get an average of 7.1 hits = (8 x .666.) + .666(8 - (8 x .666)
Both units are wounding on a 2+, so that translates into 5.92 wounds. The Wave Serpent gets a 6+ save, so both units are causing about 4.93 unsaved wounds (I am ignoring Spirit Stones and other FNP types abilities for the moment since the WS in question didn't have one, but it should be noted that FNP-type abilities are generally not considered a "save," and thus wouldn't stop the drill's special rule from triggering).
4.93 wounds with the saw turns into an average of 9.86 wounds. Hmmm... that number doesn't seem to be 13, like you said. Thus, with the saws, it seems you must be either counting on making up the extra ~3.14 (pi?) wounds with the rending claw attacks, or are layering some undisclosed extra buffs on your rolls that are increasing the number of wounds. With thirteen or so extra attacks, 3.14 more wounds is certainly plausible, but wouldn't have worked in this case because I was charging through a gap between enemy units, and thus could only get the drillers and a couple other acolytes in range to attack the WS. If you were, in fact, using just the saws to arrive at 13 unsaved wounds, then you are counting on the saws getting about 33% more damage than they do, on average. I haven't run the numbers, but I strongly suspect that 33% extra wounds is at least one standard deviation away from the mean. Please feel free to fill me in on how you arrived at 13 wounds, as something seems very off here.
In comparison, the drills cause the same 4.93 wounds on average. If all 4 drillers cause at least one unsaved wound (and each driller should deal, on average 1.23 unsaved wounds) , then the drill special rule triggers 4 times. The drill's mortal wounds rule does, on average, 1.77 extra wounds each time it is triggered, which is boosted to 2.07 if you are willing to use a CP to reroll a 1 if you get one in the first roll of the dice.
Thus, the average damage for the drillers is 4.93 + (2.07 +1.77 + 1.77 +1.77) = 12.31 wounds. So my drills overperformed a tiny amount when they killed the wave serpent in one swing, but I am sure you'll agree that 12.31 is much closer to 13 than 9.86.
In the actual game, I only caused 4 unsaved wounds with the drillers, but got one wound with each drill, and thus got to roll for the special rule 4 time and then got no 1's on the first roll, which I will admit was lucky as it saved me a command point, and then rolled a few more 3+ and 4+'s to finish the job (and I was overdue for some luck by that point, as my first turn shooting rolls were absolutely abysmal - I only killed 2 rangers and caused no wounds to anything else). If I had used saws, I would only have dealt 8 wounds, probably taken a few more ineffectual swings with the rending claws, and the WS would have limped away on 3 or 4 wounds next turn.
Now let's normalize the data to determine the points-efficiency of the different models. A rock driller acolyte costs 24 points and a rock saw acolyte costs 17, or about 70.8% of what the rock driller does. 12.31 wounds x .70 = 8.719 wounds. Thus, on a pure point-for-point basis, the rock drillers are slightly less points-efficient against the WS compared to the saws, but it is really close, and a lot closer than you acknowledge. Again, however, those extra points you are spending are packing more damage potential into a smaller squad, buying you the ability to deal extra wounds against very tough targets, and I believe that is an option that is sometimes (not all the time! Not in every list!) worth having. In order to reach the same expected value of ~12-13 unsaved wounds with saws, the saw unit needs two more saws, which also requires that you buy 5 more acolyte bodies to go with them. That's another 55 points, and now your unit can't fit in a Truck, is easier to zone out, and, of course, is more expensive points-wise. In the actual game, my 20 man rock saw unit did nothing and got shot off the board because there was nowhere I could set it up due to flyer bases and rangers pushing me way back. But, I was able to find a spot for the 10 man driller team.
Have a great rest of your day.
I may have been a little harsher then I should have been, my apologies for that.
As for the math. I, mistakenly, assuming 2+ re-rolling hits from a Primus aura not a 3+ re-rolling which does indeed bring the average down a little. Tho saw's are ap -4 unlike the -3 from Drills which removes the save entirely.
Under your conditions Saw's would be average 11.84 wounds (8 attacks, 7.11 hits, 5.92 wounds, no save)
I was, again my fault, working on 8 attacks on 2+, 7.78 hits, 6.48 wounds, 12.96 wounds)
For me the extra cost combined with the more swingy nature of the results (failing to inflict a wound with a Drill feels horrible because you lose out on the mortal wounds) leads to Saw's just being the clearly preferred/better option.
I wonder if someone more knowledge then myself in the available online dice software and tested to see just how big the deviation on Drills is.
Khorzain wrote: For those that bring Atalan Jackals, what's their purpose in your army, and how have they performed for you?
Do they have any good uses besides the Demo Charge strat and being quick objective holders?
I've been thinking of picking some up, but I'm not quite sold on them just yet.
They can be pretty decent turn 1 screen killers, especially against scouts and the like.
I use them solely for the lying in wait/extra explosives/rusted claw strat combo with 2 waves. Turn 2 and turn 3. After that they are really just objective grabbers/distractions for me
Khorzain wrote:For those that bring Atalan Jackals, what's their purpose in your army, and how have they performed for you?
Do they have any good uses besides the Demo Charge strat and being quick objective holders?
I've been thinking of picking some up, but I'm not quite sold on them just yet.
I've found them useful and solid, but most of their best tricks fall under the Rusted Claw creed. Besides the obvious synergy with drive by demolitions, the removal of the move-and-fire penalty part of the trait makes Mining Laser wolfquads fairly decent anti-tank platforms. They have a good combination of mobility, durability (lots of ablative wounds for the gun and several wounds on the gun itself), and accuracy via the extended leash they get from the Alphus. The ability to hit on a 3+ while on the move is fairly unique to them (Bladed Cog can achieve a similar effect with Neophytes, but doesn't get the 12'' priority target bubble).
They also work fairly well as tarpits against low body-count fire support units like Hive Guard. They are fast enough to get to the target early enough to matter while their large base size makes it fairly easy to completely surround the target to prevent fall-back.
Reanimator wrote:So I’ve been toying around with a triple det list: it’s for an upcoming tourney that uses CA/BRB missions and is not mega competitive, but it’s my first one so I’d like to do well. I know it’s not super optimal but I have a limit on time to prepare and available models.
I think the biggest issue with your list is that it lacks focus. It looks like it was built from an assortment of individually strong units without much regard for what you want each detachment to do. I'd suggest refactoring to make each detachment focus on a specific strength of its army and go from there.
Tyranid Detachment: I think this is the weakest of the three. A single squad of Genestealers and a single squad of Termagants isn't likely to survive their trudge across the table to get into range. Models permitting, I'd either refactor this to be focused on shock assault ('stealers) or board control (other infantry) as currently it is trying to do a bit of both and can't really do either effectively. Alternatively, you could use Tyranids as a source of additional high toughness saturation to take advantage of your shadowsword.
GSC Detachment: Mostly fine. Only concern here is that your body count is a bit low and you don't really have much redundancy. It might be wiser to swap the Achillies for more bikes and the Kelermorph for more Acolytes/Neophytes and gear.
AM Detachment: Main concern here is that there isn't much high toughness saturation available to keep your shadowsword safe (or at least take advantage of its bullet magnet status). Part of me thinks it might be a better use of points to take a Spearhead detachment with a battery of artillery instead, since they can hide out of line of sight.
Thinking of using 10 with picks and 2 hypermorphs along with a Primus and buffed with might from beyond (hopefully, casting 7 is a bit unreliable).
I was thinking twisted helix for the Creed and using perfect ambush to get them in place without a clamavus. The abominant seems like too many points to be worth it as a buffing guy.
Anything I'm doing wrong / should do differently? I'm liking the way they could potentially nuke half the enemy's army with the fight twice strat!
Thinking of using 10 with picks and 2 hypermorphs along with a Primus and buffed with might from beyond (hopefully, casting 7 is a bit unreliable).
I was thinking twisted helix for the Creed and using perfect ambush to get them in place without a clamavus. The abominant seems like too many points to be worth it as a buffing guy.
Anything I'm doing wrong / should do differently? I'm liking the way they could potentially nuke half the enemy's army with the fight twice strat!
On paper helix seems great because they can fight twice, but in practice by the time the pop up and burn through the CP you probably won't have anything left worth using the fight again strat on. Thats said you can build an army around it and reserve more CP to it, it's definitely a very telegraphed hay maker though so it's tough finding an ambush spot.
Can GS somehow get past the 3rd turn limit on reinforcements? I have been reading Nanavati's texts, and one of the tricks there he advices is to keep units in reserve until 4th or 5th turn.
Yes. If you put a unit under a blip, it counts as being deployed on the table for the purposes of tactical reserves. If you use the stratagem “they came from below” to put that unit off the board, it doesn’t change the fact that it has already been deployed. That stratagem specifies that you cant arrive on turn 1, but other than that you don’t follow any of the rules for tactical reserves (such as auto-dying on turn 3 if not deployed).
I plan to use him with 30 kraken hormagaunts so I can opportunistic advance them up and block in my opponents. He is a bit pricey but he hits like a sledge hammer.
jifel wrote: Yes. If you put a unit under a blip, it counts as being deployed on the table for the purposes of tactical reserves. If you use the stratagem “they came from below” to put that unit off the board, it doesn’t change the fact that it has already been deployed. That stratagem specifies that you cant arrive on turn 1, but other than that you don’t follow any of the rules for tactical reserves (such as auto-dying on turn 3 if not deployed).
So, 'the came from below' units can 'deep strike' after turn 3? Hmm that changes a lot!
Postulent wrote: Can GS somehow get past the 3rd turn limit on reinforcements? I have been reading Nanavati's texts, and one of the tricks there he advices is to keep units in reserve until 4th or 5th turn.
Postulent wrote: Can GS somehow get past the 3rd turn limit on reinforcements? I have been reading Nanavati's texts, and one of the tricks there he advices is to keep units in reserve until 4th or 5th turn.
For the life of me, I can't understand his constant usage on two full units of aberrants. No matter what way I stare at it, it just feels like acolytes with saws would work better, aberrants cost way more, saws are perfectly capable of cutting knight in half, and aberrants only give all those tank commanders, knights etc, something pricy to shoot at. The doublefight, hit when you die combo is nice, but it's a huge overkill against almost anything and eats third of your cp in a turn.
For the life of me, I can't understand his constant usage on two full units of aberrants. No matter what way I stare at it, it just feels like acolytes with saws would work better, aberrants cost way more, saws are perfectly capable of cutting knight in half, and aberrants only give all those tank commanders, knights etc, something pricy to shoot at. The doublefight, hit when you die combo is nice, but it's a huge overkill against almost anything and eats third of your cp in a turn.
I can see some possible justifications, depending on what else he is bringing. Acolytes really want strength buffs to deal with T8 targets while Aberrant weapons by default have the bolstered strength. Smaller foot print and more concentrated punch are also possible considerations, as it is easier to squeeze a 10-strong unit into striking range than a 15-20 strong unit. Then there is also the matter of economically, the Aberrant kit is more cost effective than Acolytes as far as getting the gear they require goes.
On a related tangent, I've generally found Aberrants best as either Bladed Cog or Pauper Princes despite the Twisted Helix signature stratagem. Both also help the Abominant out (Bladed Cog gives him access to a 3++, Pauper Princes helps his accuracy and has a very solid relic that likes having a tough caddie to lug it around) while having a fairly good toolbox for Aberrants themselves to draw from.
Strat_N8 wrote: Smaller foot print and more concentrated punch are also possible considerations, as it is easier to squeeze a 10-strong unit into striking range than a 15-20 strong unit. Then there is also the matter of economically, the Aberrant kit is more cost effective than Acolytes as far as getting the gear they require goes.
I think it's mostly an economically issue. Abberants got a smaller footprint but acolytes with rock saws can conga-line and that makes it easier to get within the primus range and the +1 Strength iconward. In combination with the +1 to wound broodsurge stratagem and the 'reroll 1 to wound at a single target' from the primus they're far better at dealing a solid amount of 'non-random' damage. Take 15 acolytes with 6 rock saws and an icon. Even without 'mass hypnosis' but with the +1 Strength icon the got 2+ to hit with reroll 1 and 2+ to wound with reroll 1. With 12 attacks thats about 20/22 wounds on a knight. Add a few regular rending attacks and that thing goes down.
Acolytes could also conga-line 3 rock saws towards target A, and congaline the 3 other rock saws towards target B. With 'mass hypnosis' it is very likely to kill both regular tanks/MC. A bigger footprint got it's advantages.
I got a team tournament coming up and I'am making a full bladed cog neophyte army with lasers and grenades. I really like the bladed cog stratagem in combination with 10 talon Metamorphs with icon. The really give the army a nice tool to deal with plague bearers, 30 ork boyz and ad mech in general. Give them 'mass hypnosis' and their a rape-blender missile.
shogun wrote: [...]
I got a team tournament coming up and I'am making a full bladed cog neophyte army with lasers and grenades. I really like the bladed cog stratagem in combination with 10 talon Metamorphs with icon. The really give the army a nice tool to deal with plague bearers, 30 ork boyz and ad mech in general. Give them 'mass hypnosis' and their a rape-blender missile.
Because I've also toyed with the idea of a mainly "human"-GSC list consisting of Neophytes as the only troops choice, I am interested in seeing your Neophyte based list, if you wouldn't mind posting it?
shogun wrote: [...]
I got a team tournament coming up and I'am making a full bladed cog neophyte army with lasers and grenades. I really like the bladed cog stratagem in combination with 10 talon Metamorphs with icon. The really give the army a nice tool to deal with plague bearers, 30 ork boyz and ad mech in general. Give them 'mass hypnosis' and their a rape-blender missile.
Because I've also toyed with the idea of a mainly "human"-GSC list consisting of Neophytes as the only troops choice, I am interested in seeing your Neophyte based list, if you wouldn't mind posting it?
Better go Hive Cult for that purpose then, Chilling Efficiency is damn good for Neophytes spam with 2x Grenade Launchers in every squad and a Jackal Alphus behind.
Bladed Cog is a trap for Neophytes, it works much better for multiwound models and Aberrants
Do you think Vultures with punishers are useful to clear out screening infantry? They seem effective for their points, but I don't see them in a lot of lists. That could ofc be because they are expensive forgeworld kits.
This question was sparked by an idea I have about building a clumsy freighter aircraft from a munitorum container and a stormtalon. I imagine it would look interesting with a punisher cannon mounted in the door of the container.
Spiky Norman wrote: Because I've also toyed with the idea of a mainly "human"-GSC list consisting of Neophytes as the only troops choice, I am interested in seeing your Neophyte based list, if you wouldn't mind posting it?
Don't mind, but this is a team tournament setup;
- 2 players each 1000p,
- teamplayer armies don't interact/effect with aura's, stratagems, psychic power etc, but cannot use the same stratagem/psychic power at the same time.
- max 3 detachments for each team, and no player can have two of the same detachments,
- max 3 of the same datasheet rule in effect and a single player can only take two of the same datasheet units.
- max 1 superheavy detachment,
- each player has his own warlord,
- each player need to deploy minimum 50% of their army.
No mission pack yet but we are thinking about this;
Both armies got the 'single minded obsession warlord trait' and that means that we both can mark a single enemy unit after deployment and each unit within 6 inch of the alpha jackal get's reroll to wound against that unit. Combining the +1 to hit against a specific target with the alpha means a 3+ to hit and reroll to wound with a gakload of lasers and grenades. And don't forget the autoguns! At some point I did more wounds with my S3 autoguns against a knight then the lascannons! That reroll to wound really helps.
KurtAngle2 wrote:Better go Hive Cult for that purpose then, Chilling Efficiency is damn good for Neophytes spam with 2x Grenade Launchers in every squad and a Jackal Alphus behind.
Bladed Cog is a trap for Neophytes, it works much better for multiwound models and Aberrants
I think in this case the 'reroll to wound against a specific target warlord trait' is better and I tend to move a lot with the neophytes and need to being able to shoot with the mining lasers at different targets. Not really worried about the 'big targets' but rather the multiple small targets, like 5+ venoms and stuff.
Spiky Norman wrote: Because I've also toyed with the idea of a mainly "human"-GSC list consisting of Neophytes as the only troops choice, I am interested in seeing your Neophyte based list, if you wouldn't mind posting it?
Don't mind, but this is a team tournament setup;
- 2 players each 1000p,
- teamplayer armies don't interact/effect with aura's, stratagems, psychic power etc, but cannot use the same stratagem/psychic power at the same time.
- max 3 detachments for each team, and no player can have two of the same detachments,
- max 3 of the same datasheet rule in effect and a single player can only take two of the same datasheet units.
- max 1 superheavy detachment,
- each player has his own warlord,
- each player need to deploy minimum 50% of their army.
No mission pack yet but we are thinking about this;
Both armies got the 'single minded obsession warlord trait' and that means that we both can mark a single enemy unit after deployment and each unit within 6 inch of the alpha jackal get's reroll to wound against that unit. Combining the +1 to hit against a specific target with the alpha means a 3+ to hit and reroll to wound with a gakload of lasers and grenades. And don't forget the autoguns! At some point I did more wounds with my S3 autoguns against a knight then the lascannons! That reroll to wound really helps.
KurtAngle2 wrote:Better go Hive Cult for that purpose then, Chilling Efficiency is damn good for Neophytes spam with 2x Grenade Launchers in every squad and a Jackal Alphus behind.
Bladed Cog is a trap for Neophytes, it works much better for multiwound models and Aberrants
I think in this case the 'reroll to wound against a specific target warlord trait' is better and I tend to move a lot with the neophytes and need to being able to shoot with the mining lasers at different targets. Not really worried about the 'big targets' but rather the multiple small targets, like 5+ venoms and stuff.
It's not as good as you think with Neophytes, the best use for it is for 20 Flamers Acolyte with a Patriarch nearby to provide such trait
[Long list cut]
Both armies got the 'single minded obsession warlord trait' and that means that we both can mark a single enemy unit after deployment and each unit within 6 inch of the alpha jackal get's reroll to wound against that unit. Combining the +1 to hit against a specific target with the alpha means a 3+ to hit and reroll to wound with a gakload of lasers and grenades. And don't forget the autoguns! At some point I did more wounds with my S3 autoguns against a knight then the lascannons! That reroll to wound really helps.
Thanks for posting it. That's a lot of Neophytes!
I suppose the lists is a bit special due to the rules of the team tournaments, but I thought perhaps you'd have some vehicles or maybe even bikes.
What do you think a list that only had Neophytes, the various characters and all types of vehicles would look like at its best? (Even though I am fully aware that it's not the most competitive choice)
Mellon wrote: Do you think Vultures with punishers are useful to clear out screening infantry? They seem effective for their points, but I don't see them in a lot of lists. That could ofc be because they are expensive forgeworld kits.
This question was sparked by an idea I have about building a clumsy freighter aircraft from a munitorum container and a stormtalon. I imagine it would look interesting with a punisher cannon mounted in the door of the container.
Then your apparently looking in the wrong places because a couple of top GSC lists that won GT's were running the triple vulture.
Yes 6 Punisher cannons on mobile harder to hit platforms are good.
But as you said, not everyone has them or plays in tournaments that allow FW.
Spiky Norman wrote: Because I've also toyed with the idea of a mainly "human"-GSC list consisting of Neophytes as the only troops choice, I am interested in seeing your Neophyte based list, if you wouldn't mind posting it?
Don't mind, but this is a team tournament setup;
- 2 players each 1000p,
- teamplayer armies don't interact/effect with aura's, stratagems, psychic power etc, but cannot use the same stratagem/psychic power at the same time.
- max 3 detachments for each team, and no player can have two of the same detachments,
- max 3 of the same datasheet rule in effect and a single player can only take two of the same datasheet units.
- max 1 superheavy detachment,
- each player has his own warlord,
- each player need to deploy minimum 50% of their army.
No mission pack yet but we are thinking about this;
Both armies got the 'single minded obsession warlord trait' and that means that we both can mark a single enemy unit after deployment and each unit within 6 inch of the alpha jackal get's reroll to wound against that unit. Combining the +1 to hit against a specific target with the alpha means a 3+ to hit and reroll to wound with a gakload of lasers and grenades. And don't forget the autoguns! At some point I did more wounds with my S3 autoguns against a knight then the lascannons! That reroll to wound really helps.
KurtAngle2 wrote:Better go Hive Cult for that purpose then, Chilling Efficiency is damn good for Neophytes spam with 2x Grenade Launchers in every squad and a Jackal Alphus behind.
Bladed Cog is a trap for Neophytes, it works much better for multiwound models and Aberrants
I think in this case the 'reroll to wound against a specific target warlord trait' is better and I tend to move a lot with the neophytes and need to being able to shoot with the mining lasers at different targets. Not really worried about the 'big targets' but rather the multiple small targets, like 5+ venoms and stuff.
It's not as good as you think with Neophytes, the best use for it is for 20 Flamers Acolyte with a Patriarch nearby to provide such trait
Yes, that is also good, but you got to mark an enemy unit after deployment so the enemy knows about your plan.
I think in my team tournament setting it is better to go for the reroll to wound because I can do it with both players and I cannot use the same stratagem (Chilling Efficiency) twice. Both settings got their strengths and weaknesses compared to each other in different situations.
Bladed cog:
- Better for the mining lasers if they're moving because the don't get the -1 to hit penalty even when shooting at different targets,
- Apart from mining lasers, the reroll to wound for autoguns and grenade launchers really increases the damage output against a single target with 'single-minded obsession',
- 6++ for the neophytes,
Hive cult:
- Better for the mining lasers if the stand still with Chilling Efficiency,
- Extra 1+ to hit for the autoguns and grenade launchers with Chilling Efficiency,
- Compared to 'single-minded obsession', 'Chilling Efficiency' can be used on different targets but cost 2CP to activate,
- Hive cult units can fall back and still shoot (with a -1 to hit).
You're also missing reroll 1s to hit via Hive Cult which is a massive improvement when you can add several modifiers to hit.
6++ on Neophyte is all but useless, nobody is gonna shot AP-2 on them whilst the - 1 to Hit via Heavy Weapons is compensated by the aforementioned positive modifiers which also Buffs all other weapons (grenade launchers in particular gets increased damage output by a lot).
Also halving morale damage means that you're not losing even few models here and there and the possibility of shooting whilst disengaging, whilst not particularly strong by itself, gives you the chance to keep adding damage
I'm liking the idea of using an enormous horde of brood brothers and backing it up with a few big punches which I can go CP-crazy with
Twisted helix (two battalions)
Patriarch (no overwatch amulet relic)
Patriarch extra attacks warlord trait and +1 damage relic
Primus
Magus with crouchling
10 aberrants, picks and 2 stop signs
15 acolytes with 6 rock saws
20 acolytes with hand flamers and 5 demo charges
6x 20 brood brothers
Brood brothers battalion
2 company commanders
3x30 conscripts
2x astropaths with psychic barrier and psychic maelstrom
Hopefully too many bodies for some armies to handle and will force others to castle or expose themselves to some brutal CC threats.
Spiky Norman wrote: What do you think a list that only had Neophytes, the various characters and all types of vehicles would look like at its best? (Even though I am fully aware that it's not the most competitive choice)
Not a fan of the vehicles because I like how a full infantry/bikes army can make the enemies anti-vehicle weapons a waste. With a full Neophytes army I would probably pick the best from each creed. You would need 'broodcoven' for 3x warlord traits.
Deploy battalion: Hive cult, with big units (20) Neophytes with lasers and grenades + alpha + Patriarch with Warlord trait with reroll 1.
Deep strike battalion: bladed cog, with small units Neophytes with lasers and grenades, kellermorph + alpha and 'chilling efficiency' Warlord trait Magus.
And I would get a rusted claw biker gang with an alpha and 3x5 jackals with demolition charges.
Strat_N8 wrote: Smaller foot print and more concentrated punch are also possible considerations, as it is easier to squeeze a 10-strong unit into striking range than a 15-20 strong unit. Then there is also the matter of economically, the Aberrant kit is more cost effective than Acolytes as far as getting the gear they require goes.
I think it's mostly an economically issue.
When it comes to Nick Nanavati, it's probably the one time you can be certain it's not an economic issue. His professional career is playing this game. People send him free models just to have their paintjobs in his collection.
Strat_N8 wrote: Smaller foot print and more concentrated punch are also possible considerations, as it is easier to squeeze a 10-strong unit into striking range than a 15-20 strong unit. Then there is also the matter of economically, the Aberrant kit is more cost effective than Acolytes as far as getting the gear they require goes.
I think it's mostly an economically issue.
When it comes to Nick Nanavati, it's probably the one time you can be certain it's not an economic issue. His professional career is playing this game. People send him free models just to have their paintjobs in his collection.
Could be, but thats not an argument. Aberrants are a solid unit but that doesn't mean rocksaw acolytes couldn't have done the same job or better. Maybe 2 big unit of aberrants can survive more incoming fire and pushes the army at the right time over the top at a crucial moment in the game. Or maybe the died but let the other infantry pick up all the objectives.
That's what I like about GSC, you can do all the math in a vacuum but if revolves all around the complete synergy within the army, and the flexibility to switch to different tactics regarding different opponents.
I didn't make an argument for or against Aberrants. I just pointed out that it's pretty safe to say you are wrong in dismissing it as an economical issue here, there is almost certainly a reason why he takes them.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I didn't make an argument for or against Aberrants. I just pointed out that it's pretty safe to say you are wrong in dismissing it as an economical issue here, there is almost certainly a reason why he takes them.
And I was referring to 'Strat' who mentioned the 'economical issue' in relation to using aberrants in general. Nick Probably took them for a reason but maybe he thought; "I know that acolytes with rock saws are slightly better but I just like how the aberrants look and I like to keep other 40k players guessing at why I took them, just to screw with their minds".
I’ve also been running 20 Aberrants and have talked to Nick extensively on the subject. Their durability is much better than Acolytes and that’s very important. They don’t have the same “here’s a dead knight” factor, but otherwise hit many mid-tier targets better, and the ability to fight in death is absolutely crucial in the Ork or chaos matchup. I started out with 65 Acolytes/10 Aberrants in my gsc lists, and have switched to 35 Acolytes/20 Aberrants and I’m honestly getting much better results.
Aberrants also have a smaller footprint as mentioned above and can hide in terrain much more easily.
Nitro Zeus wrote: I didn't make an argument for or against Aberrants. I just pointed out that it's pretty safe to say you are wrong in dismissing it as an economical issue here, there is almost certainly a reason why he takes them.
And I was referring to 'Strat' who mentioned the 'economical issue' in relation to using aberrants in general. Nick Probably took them for a reason but maybe he thought; "I know that acolytes with rock saws are slightly better but I just like how the aberrants look and I like to keep other 40k players guessing at why I took them, just to screw with their minds".
I left that part in my post, I disagreed with both of you that it was an economic issue, that doesn't seem very likely given who we are talking about.
On their topic of Aberrant, I think they are better than you given them credit for personally, especially in Twisted Helix. It's not like he isn't also running Acolytes.
Aberrants also have a smaller footprint as mentioned above and can hide in terrain much more easily.
Which is why its actually very important to add the disclaimer that he plays almost exclusively in the ITC, home of the magic box terrain house rules. When you can either hide 10 acolytes or 10 abberants and become immune to direct fire, the choice makes more sense, since 1:1 the abberants are better because your generally unable to hide more then 10 32mm based models per magic box. If your not playing a specific packet then the choices from a list tailored for it may not seem as solid.
Personally, I am at the point where I think the ITC format is shifting balance more then aiding it. The format doesn't actually add any more balance at this point, it just shifts the furniture around. The process becomes more of a list building exercise and less about in game strategy. Further more, GW is postponing game patches in order to collect data from ITC event results. So they are issuing FAQ's and adjustments to the core game using results from a house rule packet, it's a less then ideal situation.
Pretty sure units in trucks dont benefit from the Jackal Alphus.
Q: If a transport with the Open-topped ability (e.g. a Trukk) is
within range of an aura ability, are units that are embarked upon
that transport affected by that ability?
A: No.
FatBoyNoSlim wrote: Pretty sure units in trucks dont benefit from the Jackal Alphus.
Q: If a transport with the Open-topped ability (e.g. a Trukk) is
within range of an aura ability, are units that are embarked upon
that transport affected by that ability?
A: No.
But the VEHICLE is affected, and modifiers (NOT rerolls, but modifiers) that affect the vehicle affect the occupants.
Aberrants also have a smaller footprint as mentioned above and can hide in terrain much more easily.
Which is why its actually very important to add the disclaimer that he plays almost exclusively in the ITC, home of the magic box terrain house rules. When you can either hide 10 acolytes or 10 abberants and become immune to direct fire, the choice makes more sense, since 1:1 the abberants are better because your generally unable to hide more then 10 32mm based models per magic box. If your not playing a specific packet then the choices from a list tailored for it may not seem as solid.
Personally, I am at the point where I think the ITC format is shifting balance more then aiding it. The format doesn't actually add any more balance at this point, it just shifts the furniture around. The process becomes more of a list building exercise and less about in game strategy. Further more, GW is postponing game patches in order to collect data from ITC event results. So they are issuing FAQ's and adjustments to the core game using results from a house rule packet, it's a less then ideal situation.
Nick plays on the east coast, not the west coast. Most of the “magic box” terrain is the stuff made by FLG, which isn’t nearly as common on the east. It’s present for sure, but honestly none of my local events use the boxes and Aberrants are still just more efficient.
I wonder if the situation actually happens on the table where 10 Aberrants live with enough numbers to still be effective but 20 Acolytes wouldn't. Especially in combination with other threats around those Aberrants/acolytes that also need to be dealt with.
I think a big part is also that Chaos lists appear to be doing quite well atm? and many of those lists seem to rely on things like DP's in combat to take care of threats and are light on shooting and then the guaranteed return damage from Aberrants with the stratagem certainly is a huge deterrent..
FatBoyNoSlim wrote: Pretty sure units in trucks dont benefit from the Jackal Alphus.
Q: If a transport with the Open-topped ability (e.g. a Trukk) is
within range of an aura ability, are units that are embarked upon
that transport affected by that ability?
A: No.
But the VEHICLE is affected, and modifiers (NOT rerolls, but modifiers) that affect the vehicle affect the occupants.
Not to turn this into a YMBC thread, but the Jackel Alphus ability is an aura ability, no matter how you spin it. Therefor the occupants do not gain the benefit.
This is how I see the interaction playing out:
1) Jackal Alphus using ability to give +1 to hit vs enemy target to all units with 6 inches (Aura ability)
2) Truck with Neophytes is in range.
3) Truck receives the benefits of the +1 to hit modifier
4) Neophytes are normally effected by modifiers to the truck, but as in this case the modifier comes from an aura ability, the FAQ kicks in and they are not allowed to benefit from the +1 to hit.
To take it a step further. If a player was to use Chilling Efficiency, which is a stratagem that adds +1 to hit, this would affect both the truck and its occupants. The stratagem applies a modifier that affects the truck, and the truck passes this modifier onto its passengers. It is not an aura ability so even though the neophytes are technically not on the board they still get the benefit thanks to the truck getting the modifier.
). It has fun rules, but that's not really good enough when you have access to Rock Saws. Anyway, I wanted to see if the Pauper Princes trait could make the Rock Drill worth taking, as I have a couple of them that I painted just for fun.
). For example; I would rather have another big abberants unit instead of the magus + primus + kellermorph. If you remove these units and take one battalion + battle brother spearhead with platoon commander + 3x mortar teams it gives you more points to invest in more models. Take the +d3 
verkill, 2 boxes of guardsmen, 1 heavy weapons teams box and a box of acolytes.
