During setup, you put 50% of your Power-Level underground, then you put the remaining 50% in the form of blips. After the game has started, let's say you go first, at the start of your movement, you are forced to reveal all of your blips. You then play "They Came From Below" to put 3 blip units into reserves. At the end of your movement, you put another unit into reserves using "Return to the Shadows." At the end of your first turn, you effectively have 80% of your forces in reserve at this point. As I do not have CA 2018, I am questioning if this is legitimate.
If it isn't legitimate, doesn't that nerf the usefulness of these 2 stratagems? Especially, since you can only put into play your reserves on turn 2 and 3. Additionally, there is limited usefulness of starting with 80-90% of your units in blip form, just to put them into reserve on turn one for the cost of 2 CP (so you can keep 50% of your Power-Level on the table at all times). Also, do you have to keep track of your remaining Power-Level during the game (which changes based on causalities) just to make sure that when you are putting units into reserve, that you don't cross the 50% threshold?
Doesn't the 50% rule only apply to deployment at the start of the game? I don't think you have to worry about keeping your reserves at 50% since you'd be using these strategems after the game started.
... Also, am I missing something or could you include a Tempestor Prime in your AM detatchment, deepstrike him in turn 2 along with two 20-man units of Brood Brothers, and have the Tempestor issue them the FRSRF order, since they all share the <Brood Brothers> regiment?
Astmeister wrote: Note that patriarchs do not gain a cult creed because they are genestealers.
I figured that were the case, but didn't one of the official 40k facebook posts even talk about how you could buff your patriarch to crazy absurd levels by combining the twisted helix cult rule with their relic on your patriarch, as if the cult rules not applying to genestealers is so dumb even they didn't realize they wrote it that way.
Niiai wrote: Jrandom are you trolling? What do you mean nerfing the GSC? You are saying the index is better then the codex the day before release. Sounds like a poorly worded opinion or a troll baiting. Anyway, you are welcome to your opinion. I the mean time I am gonne have funn with all these new rules!
Please name another faction that has so many restrictions on their allies. I guess you could say Orks and Necrons. But Imperials, Chaos, and Eldar have zero restrictions on their allies and no one is saying “that isn’t in the fluff.....” when they are min-maxing the sickest combos.
I mean, for starters, the factions that have no allies, like you said.
Drukhari have extreme restrictions on being able to claim subfaction tactics - you have about 6-10 units that can take advantage of any given subfaction tactic, and all of them are limited to a single HQ and a single Troop choice per detachment. Theyre still considered one of the best factions in the game, because what you CAN do with them is incredibly good.
That's where GSC land. If you want unrestricted allies...ally nids instead of guard. You can ally freely with them, get full CPs, etc.
I would much much much much much much rather be in the situation of Drukhari, where what I can do with my own faction/allies is slightly limited but highly competitive, than in the situation of space marines, where my ally options are KILLER but my own codex is so garbage that it just makes more sense to play 90% allies than my own chosen faction.
That is where I want GSC to be with respect to those guard ally options. Please, give me reasons to take neophytes over Brood Bro infantry. Please, make allied guard battalions worse than straight GSC battalions. Please give me a reason to consider GSC vehicles over allied guard vehicles, or a reason to take GSC commanders over allied guard HQs.
Sure, you can go "but competitive imperial armies can take guard with no restrictions!" but that's not a good thing about them, it's a bad thing. It means competitive imperial lists just straight up ARE GUARD and people who want to play those armies have to spend more time painting guardsmen than the faction they'd actually like to be playing.
Brood brothers existing and having full access to the guard vehicle catalog is a good thing.
making sure that guard catalog is not the most competitive thing so players wanting to make a competitive GSC list don't have to paint 60 guardsmen is also a VERY GOOD THING.
First off, that was an excellent post that I just exalted. But why limit the GSC characters to 1 per Detachment? GW has already put in the limit of three. Now you basically can’t take the Drill terrain piece (or any other fortification,) if you want allies, since you can’t take all the characters you want in one detachment.
Probably because the new characters have abilities similar to what other factions only get on their named characters. The biologis could have been "Dr. Gene Splicimus Tealur, Twisted Helix Aberrant Mad Scientist" and the Jackal Alphus could have been "Jeanne 'Steel' Ur, Rusted Claw biker vanguard" but by limiting them to 1 detachment we can use them in any cult.
Personally, I'd be jazzed if my orks had their characters genericised and I could have a special Kommando boss, a special stormboy boss and a special mega armor warboss using the snikrot zagstruk and ghazghkull models, but for whatever clan I painted my models as.
Look at Kellermorph. That dude's abilities would be completely unforgivable on a character you could take 3 times in a single vanguard detachment (heck, they're probably unforgivable anyway...)
Yup, you nailed it. Would have sucked to have these guys all split into different cults. Besides, folks are acting like it is a major setback, meanwhile I have yet to see a list posted that isn't 3 detachments lol. You can still very easily get 3 kellermorphs into a list if you hate having friends.
I also want to say I agree fully with your synopsis of the armies format in building detachments. I play drukhari and while it's tricky to get used to at first, the army is way ahead of the others, GSC reminds me of that. I honestly think GW is planning on reigning in on allies next. All the factions are out, now they will start polishing the edition. Wouldn't be shocked if you got reduced CP on any detachment that isn't made up from whatever your declare to be your primary.
Gremmer wrote: Mining laser needs faq, in the weapon list it’s d3 dmg, making it crap, but on the jackal datasheet it’s d6, making it viable...
Ah, that's a lame typo, the mining laser has D6 damage listed in the digital version of the codex weapon list, so at least we know what it's meant to be.
Gremmer wrote: Mining laser needs faq, in the weapon list it’s d3 dmg, making it crap, but on the jackal datasheet it’s d6, making it viable...
Ah, that's a lame typo, the mining laser has D6 damage listed in the digital version of the codex weapon list, so at least we know what it's meant to be.
Cheers! Making it interesting then.
In the points section, is brood brothers 10-20 or just 10? (It’s that way in paper back)
Gremmer wrote: Mining laser needs faq, in the weapon list it’s d3 dmg, making it crap, but on the jackal datasheet it’s d6, making it viable...
Ah, that's a lame typo, the mining laser has D6 damage listed in the digital version of the codex weapon list, so at least we know what it's meant to be.
Cheers! Making it interesting then.
In the points section, is brood brothers 10-20 or just 10? (It’s that way in paper back)
It says 10-20 models in both the points section and the unit's datasheet.
Any thoughts on weapon distribution for Neophytes?
I really want to like the mining laser option, but man does it feel bad to stick a Heavy 1 weapon on a BS 4+ model. It's not exactly expensive though so it still may be worth it since you can take 2 and will probably hit with 1 of them.
I find the shotgun option intriguing. Close support squad with Flamers and Shotguns? Or webbers since they are super cheap and have better range then flamers? Skip the heavy weapons to keep them cheap?
10 man squad with 2x Seismic Cannon and Autoguns seems interesting for squatting on an objective. Maybe throw a couple grenade launchers in there too. Not like you are breaking the bank for any of the special weapons really.
Also I'm not really seeing much of a reason to give the leader any extra stuff. Not like you want these dudes in melee anyway right? You have acolytes for that!
OEMoose wrote: Yay got my hands on the digital version now!
Any thoughts on weapon distribution for Neophytes?
I really want to like the mining laser option, but man does it feel bad to stick a Heavy 1 weapon on a BS 4+ model. It's not exactly expensive though so it still may be worth it since you can take 2 and will probably hit with 1 of them.
I find the shotgun option intriguing. Close support squad with Flamers and Shotguns? Or webbers since they are super cheap and have better range then flamers? Skip the heavy weapons to keep them cheap?
10 man squad with 2x Seismic Cannon and Autoguns seems interesting for squatting on an objective. Maybe throw a couple grenade launchers in there too. Not like you are breaking the bank for any of the special weapons really.
Also I'm not really seeing much of a reason to give the leader any extra stuff. Not like you want these dudes in melee anyway right? You have acolytes for that!
I've been thinking of running a couple of them as 10-man units in Goliath Trucks, with the Seismic Cannon/Grenade launcher loadout. Possibly the Mining Lasers now that they are D6 damage, essentially short-range lascannons. The main drawback is the moving and shooting the heavy weapons — though that could be negated by keeping a Jackal Alphus nearby. It's not a Leman Russ, but it still seems like an interesting weapons platform with a variety of options for dealing with heavy infantry and light vehicles — and if your opponent lets you get close enough to throw demo charges, that's essentially a Russ battle cannon added to the mix. It isn't exactly durable with T6 and only 10 wounds, but your opponent still has to deal with the Neophytes that survive the truck being destroyed. But that's assuming they even focus on the trucks, since they'll be dealing with all our cult ambush shenanigans turn 2. Plus . . . thematically I just really love the idea of mechanized cultists in the trucks.
157 points for:
Twin Autocannon: 48", Heavy 4xS7/-1/2
Heavy Stubber: 36", Heavy 3xS4/0/1
2x Seismic Cannons: 24", Heavy 12xS3/0/1 | 12", Heavy 6xS6/-1/2 — or — 2xMining Lasers: 2xS9/-3/D6 2x Grenade Launchers: 24", Assault 2D6xS3/0/1 | Assault 2xS6, -1, D3
6x Autoguns: 24", 6xS3/0/1(or 12", 12xS3 in Rapid Fire range)
Demo Cache: 6", Assault D6xS8/-3/D3
With that said, if Brood Brother Infantry+Orders don't get FAQ'd, then I don't really see a reason to take Neophytes over Brood Brother Infantry if you're just planning on deep-striking them turn 2. I think 80 lasgun shots might beat anything a Neophyte squad can bring to the table.
Kicked off a narrative campaign vs Crimson Fists today. Not matched play so there was a bunch of wacky stuff going on, but I got some good impressions: Kellermorph wasn’t anywhere near as threatening as people were making him out to be, but still put in work, the Patriarch is a monster, especially with the +1 S/A WL trait and no overwatch relic, one shorting Pedro Kantor. I spent way too many CP pregame (7/13) however. I think our summoning strat is legitimately good. On average you’ll get to summon 12PL, and its good way to have a 100-150 point “sideboard” of units you can switch in/out to tailor your matchups. E.g. if you’re up against a lot of Knights you can summon a bunch of Rocksaw acolytes or Aberrants
The heavy rock drill triggers a roll for mortal wounds if it wounds but does not destroy a model. Does this proc per drill? For example, if I attack a knight with a unit if Hybrids that have 8 drills in it, and each drill does a single unsaved wound, would I roll for 8 mortal wounds or 1?
Colonel Cross wrote: You'd roll per weapon that inflicted damage. Why wouldn't it work that way?
Because the wording looks ambiguous enough to span 5 pages of YMMV. I read it as per weapon, but I wanted to see what everyone else thought.
At 8 in a 20 man unit, with an icon, that's roughly 10 MW on a T8 3+ model. I'm assuming 4 drills get a wound in, and 2 MW per saw. At 290 points for the squad, and considering the 30 some rending swings behind it, it should kill most things it touches.
Why not both? Depends on your army and both armies deployment. Shoot 2 or 3 times. Then return him to the shadows. Then he gets the 1d6 deployment stratagem for free and then you charge.
I'm not sure if I'm missing something here, but is cult ambush still bound by the tactical reserves beta rule? Does a unit that is set up as a "blip" count as being set up on the battlefield, or in reserve?
What about units that are underground?
Apologies if I've missed something obvious, but I can't see an answer to this.
Niiai wrote: Why not both? Depends on your army and both armies deployment. Shoot 2 or 3 times. Then return him to the shadows. Then he gets the 1d6 deployment stratagem for free and then you charge.
It depends on what you need taken out I guess.
From what I gather you can only have the rifle or dagger, can't have both. Or am I missing something?
If I am not mistaken, you can give the Sanctus the relic rifle (+2 to wound roll) and get a mortal wound on a 4+, which would then trigger Perils if the target is a Psyker. A 41% chance to put d3+1 MW on a Psyker isn't bad for 60 points.
You have to give up the rifle to get the dagger, no multitasking with him.
I dont see an exemption that would prevent you from using the summoning strat to summon characters. PL 3 means you cant fail to summon him. Kind of a waste of 2CP, but you could have one of each painted and summon the one you needed.
Thinking about it, would this be a way around the one per detachment character limit?
Robtype0 wrote: I'm not sure if I'm missing something here, but is cult ambush still bound by the tactical reserves beta rule? Does a unit that is set up as a "blip" count as being set up on the battlefield, or in reserve?
What about units that are underground?
Apologies if I've missed something obvious, but I can't see an answer to this.
Cult Ambush in our Deployment zone is not bound by tactical reserves beta rule, "underground" deployment (Deep Strike) still is
babelfish wrote: If I am not mistaken, you can give the Sanctus the relic rifle (+2 to wound roll) and get a mortal wound on a 4+, which would then trigger Perils if the target is a Psyker. A 41% chance to put d3+1 MW on a Psyker isn't bad for 60 points.
You have to give up the rifle to get the dagger, no multitasking with him.
I dont see an exemption that would prevent you from using the summoning strat to summon characters. PL 3 means you cant fail to summon him. Kind of a waste of 2CP, but you could have one of each painted and summon the one you needed.
Thinking about it, would this be a way around the one per detachment character limit?
So it seems he's ok at taking out characters but mainly built for killing psykers with the rifle?
Dagger is all round jump in and hurt stuff?
Robtype0 wrote: I'm not sure if I'm missing something here, but is cult ambush still bound by the tactical reserves beta rule? Does a unit that is set up as a "blip" count as being set up on the battlefield, or in reserve?
What about units that are underground?
Apologies if I've missed something obvious, but I can't see an answer to this.
Cult Ambush in our Deployment zone is not bound by tactical reserves beta rule, "underground" deployment (Deep Strike) still is
Thanks for the reply. Where is this stated? I can't see any mention of the tactical reserves rule in the book, and the exemption for genestealer cult in the FAQ has been removed
I'm not doubting you, and it seems that this is the way it should work, but I can't see where this rules interaction is clarified.
It was in the Facebook reply thread. I don't have a link. But they were going to add it to our 2 week FAQ to be clear that blips don't equal reinforcments.
I'm starting to consider dropping my primus, to fit in a 2nd magus.
The primas was the most important unit i'd say in GSC of the past due to modifying the ambush roll, so i have him out of habit. But now that he no longer does that, how important do you think he is to include, especially if you have cult icons in all your acolyte squads? What do you guys think.
Purestrains are still really good, they just aren’t autotakes. I’m going to be reserving some points to let me use telepathic summons which brings out 15 stealers on average.
Thanks. What do you see as the ideal unit sizes for acolytes and aberrants? Might from beyond makes me want to create fewer bigger units despite the leadership risk/loss of flexibility.
How necessary is it going to be to bring a Patriarch?
They are very strong and they do bring a nice set of buffs, but the point cost bears consideration: 56% more expensive then a Magus and 76% more expensive then a Primus. If you are playing a small game I think you could skip the Patriarch and save from points in the HQ slot to fill out the rest of your army.
Fun trick with sniper sanctus. The 0 cost strat t1 dbl tap for him also procs off blip reveal which means he can shoot on reveal 1st turn for free then shoot again during your normal shooting. He is also incredibly durable with a 3+ armor in cover and character rules.
This also frees up the strat for your assault bomb t2.
Really? Would have thought they'd be a good way to beat down knights. Even a full unit of helix acolytes with the broodsurge +1 to wound strat is going to struggle to do enough to a knight before then inevitable reprisals.
Do you reckon aberrants are just better for that role then?
With the codex finally released I would be delighted if we could compile a comprehensive overview of our faction in the start post of this thread, just like we had in the old thread.
I'll do my part with some of my observations:
HQs
Patriarch
Hey, our four-armed bug Jesus dropped a bit in points. Pre codex I wasn't a fan of this (sweet looking) model at all. But now he seems quite solid. You might want to stack some LD buffs on him (Clamavus, generic LDWT etc.) to pull off Mental Onslaught shenanigans. Or you can turn him into an absolute blender by going all-in with Twisted Helix + MfB etc. Even as non-Twisted-Helix he can get +1 attack and strength from the WT + MfB, making him S8 with 8 attacks, without having to invest a ton into positioning him in such a way that he gets all the buffs from the support characters etc.
Magus
Solid caster. Does Psyker things. Give him -1 to getting hit with the Broodcoven stratagem (taking the appropriate WT) so that he may live a bit longer. Our psychic discipline is quite strong so consider taking 2 Maguses or more.
Primus
Doesn't buff our ambushing anymore. Still good for buffing melee units. Though his re-rolling 1s to-wound aura also works in the shooting phase, so he is a bit like a budget Lieutenant.
Jackal Alphus
Big fan of the mini and its rules! Makes our Neopytes and Trucks etc. hit on a 3+ if they are stationary. If you go for the Hivecult you can give this gal the re-roll 1s for shooting WT, as well as using their unique stratagem, making our units within 6" hit on 2s(!) if they remain stationary.
Troops
Neophytes
Essentially guardsmen without orders and a higher density of Special/Heavy Weapons per squad. These guys are our objective campers and screen. They are quite versatile in their loadout. For only 60 points you get ten bald Cultists with 2 GLs and 2 HSs. Plop 'em on an objective in your deploymentzone and take some potshots at enemy infantry. Or switch the Stubbers for Mining Lasers to lend some firesupport against enemy tanks and transports. Need to eradicate a screening unit? Take 20 of these with Shotguns and 2 Flamers and drop them down with the "Lying in wait" stratagem in front of the unfortunate enemy. Bring in a Kellermorph behind them. Open up with the Gunslinger first to get the re-roll 1s buff, then follow up with the Cultists. Will melt screening units.
Go for Rusted Claw with these to have a sweet 3+/4+ armour against AP-/AP-1 weapons when in cover. Makes them hard to shift for their points. If you want to play them as agressive forward-moving units that take boardcontrol you may want to go for the Bladed Cog, thus ignoring the penalty for moving and fireing your heavy weapons. Or go Hivecult to make an actually decent shooty army (see above).
Acolytes
Angry guardsmen on steroids (statwise). Yes, there is the obvious 20 man Handflamer blob that you can throw at your enemy. But most people will probably still take them for their heavy weapons. Ten gribblies, all with HFs, 4 saws and a banner only cost 130 points and will wreck face when they get their charge off. To make their charging odds better run them in an Four Armed Emperor detachment with a Clamavus nearby. When they come in from ambush they only have to roll a 7. To make it even more likely make it a Broodsurge detachment, give the Iconward the Augur of Insurgence WT via Field Commander stratagem and now you can even re-roll that charge (and have access to the +1 to-wound stratagem). Yikes!
Saws for all-purpose killing. Drills to kill tough targets with lots of wounds or invuls. Rock Cutters... because you like the model. Saws are cheaper, have no minus to-hit and do as much dmg on average.
Or take them naked in a blob of 10-20 with a banner. Buff 'em with Twisted Helix or MfB and shove them down your enemy's throat. They have enough attacks to tear most infantry appart and can threaten light vehicles.
Essentially a Scout Sentinel with more wounds. The only good weapon it can take is the HML. The Missile Launcher is simply weaker and the heavy mortar is a bad joke. Take this rad looking buggy with a spotter and HML, park it in the backfield and enjoy ~2 Lascannon shots on average. Swap the spotter for a flare launcher if you want a 6+ FNP and the ability to make your bikes a bit faster.
Atalan Jackals
Neophytes on dirtbikes (and quads)!!! Rusted Claw is your Creed if you take these bad boys. -1 to-hit and the creed makes them a bit tougher against bolter fire and equivalents. Best loadout is probably Demo Charges + Shotguns and the Incinerator on the Quad. Drive them up the field, pop the "More Explosives" and "Drive-by Demolition" stratagems whilst in range of an Alphus and enjoy 5D6 S8 AP-3 D3 dmg shots flying towards the unfortunate foe, hitting (and most likely wounding) on 2s. Afterwards you can drive to safety.
Cheap and good harassing unit. But don't expect them to do wonders. They need to get in range to throw their Demo Charges. Otherwise they are just faster Neophytes with Shotguns.
Naked Acolytes are so cheap and strong on their own (as Helix) that it's nearly a waste to give them any wargear.
You would be missing out then. Drills are amazing VS. things with invulns and saws are great for dropping armor. Rending claws are solid, but the unit becomes much worse once you start losing guys when they lack upgrades. You also can't ignore 32mm bases. They make life harder for horde assault, not easier, so again you want max damage from the smallest footprint. You also get more out of your stratagems since your only perfect ambushing one unit a turn.
Gremmer wrote: I feel we really lack in the anti air department, how do you guys handle flyers? (Especially the ig mass Bolter one)
One hilariously stupid way to hunt flyers is the hand flamer blob. 20 acolytes = 70 autohits = ~12 wounds = 6 through the save. Enough to bracket a flyer. If you spend 5 command points for both Lying In Wait and Perfect Ambush you get to down a flyer with hand flamers :-D
Seriously, we need allies to take down flyers reliably.
Well I have been toying around with idea of adding AM detachment of either Veterans or Tempestus (which I found shocking that you can do that) and some other stuff.
BS 3+ shooting with host of special weapons is just alluring idea for some reason.
Sotahullu wrote: Well I have been toying around with idea of adding AM detachment of either Veterans or Tempestus (which I found shocking that you can do that) and some other stuff.
BS 3+ shooting with host of special weapons is just alluring idea for some reason.
I was thinking the exact same thing!
I think Tempetus Scions might synergise a bit better since they can deep strike. A 5 man squad with 2x Plasma Gun and a Plasma Pistol comes in at 74 points. Cheap plasma death for an army that is missing it!
Sotahullu wrote: Well I have been toying around with idea of adding AM detachment of either Veterans or Tempestus (which I found shocking that you can do that) and some other stuff.
BS 3+ shooting with host of special weapons is just alluring idea for some reason.
I was thinking the exact same thing!
I think Tempetus Scions might synergise a bit better since they can deep strike. A 5 man squad with 2x Plasma Gun and a Plasma Pistol comes in at 74 points. Cheap plasma death for an army that is missing it!
Nothing better then some molten slags of space marines.
Gordoape wrote: I dunno, i mean tempestus aren’t very good in AM either. I would rather ally in some big guns via Tank Commanders of Basilisks
Sure, but for GSC they do plug a hole by providing cheap plasma at BS 3+ AND have deep strike synergy.
I have little doubt that the meta will favor allying with AM for the tanks, but I don't see Scions being a BAD choice. Just a non optimal one. And that's fine!
How have I not thought of that? Scions will work SO MUCH BETTER with GSC. The only problem with Scions is they can't get through screens and die after they drop. But the GSC advance on the enemy. With lots of Infantry that want to get into CC. If you overload your opponent with deep striking infantry, they'll have to choose between the shooty scions or the punchy GSC units. I am excited to try this out.
C4790M wrote: Purestrains are still really good, they just aren’t autotakes. I’m going to be reserving some points to let me use telepathic summons which brings out 15 stealers on average.
The problem with purestrains is if you're going to take them tyranid genestealers are better in every way. I'm not normally one to take soup, but it's such a huge difference it's pretty crazy not to take a nid detachment instead of you want genestelers.
Colonel Cross wrote: How have I not thought of that? Scions will work SO MUCH BETTER with GSC. The only problem with Scions is they can't get through screens and die after they drop. But the GSC advance on the enemy. With lots of Infantry that want to get into CC. If you overload your opponent with deep striking infantry, they'll have to choose between the shooty scions or the punchy GSC units. I am excited to try this out.
Pretty cheap way to fill out a battalion detachment too! Nothing in the GSC list is too expensive, leaving you plenty of points for you allies.
You could do something like:
HQ:
Tank Commander (tasty tasty BS 3+ tank action)
Tempestor Prime
Troops:
3x 5 Man Scion squads with your choice of special weapons
That seems like it would plug a lot of holes in your GSC list. You have a tough armor platform and a good saturation of special weapons all at BS 3+.
I'm just coming back to 40k and am restarting my collection lol. I was planning on starting with Blood Angels, but this GSC Codex has me super excited to embrace my Xenos overlords.
I think there is some really good synergies with the Pauper Princes. Specifically, look at their cult relic "Reliquary of the Saint Tenndarc." It isn't bound to any specific piece of weapon, so any character can take it. It gives you a 6" bubble of Pauper Prince auto morale. It works like a Space Marine banner, when you lose a model, on a 4+ you get 1 attack in melee or you get to shoot a weapon.
So you use this in conjunction with the stratagem "Cult Reinforcements" (return up to d6 slain models to a Troop unit). Using a group of Neophytes, take both Grenade Launchers and Mining Lasers as casualties first, on a 4+ you get to fire them in the enemies shooting phase. Then you use Cult Reinforcements to repopulate them back into the unit at the beginning of your movement phase.
This gets even crazier if you use it with a group of Acolytes using Demolition charges. You throw the charges, let the models get killed, then bring them back (with the charges) for another round of bomb chucking. You don't need to be Pauper Prince for that bit of in-game tech.
I don't have the codex yet but does that relic work for only cult models or also BB? Imagine having that character in the middle of 20 man units of BB or Neophytes and they all get the shoot on a 4+. Not bad when you'll be picking them up by the handful.
Colonel Cross wrote: I don't have the codex yet but does that relic work for only cult models or also BB? Imagine having that character in the middle of 20 man units of BB or Neophytes and they all get the shoot on a 4+. Not bad when you'll be picking them up by the handful.
The banner only works on Pauper Prince cult units, so no BBs. But you could give it to a warlord, who has the trait to increase auras by 3” (Alien Majesty,) so you would have an 18” diameter bubble of being able to shoot back in the opponents turn.
Gordoape wrote: Do people feel that Purestrains are not worth taking at this point? Better just to stick with acolytes and aberrants?
I guess for my part I can't yet figure out why I'd take purestrains over just allying in a pair of broodlords and 3 regular Genestealer squads to form a brigade.
1) they give me CP
2) they give me 2 powers on a different psychic table (probably The Horror and Psychic Scream since I will most likely be looking to get some -ld stacking on anyway for Mental Onslaught). Also Shadow in the Warp.
3) they get a hive fleet bonus
I know statwise broodlords aren't as awesome as patriarchs and I give up a fearless bubble, but I also don't have to give my warlord kill to a guy who wants to be in combat and I don't have to spend 120 points on the guy.
Well I honestly can't imagine any role that Purestrain is the only one to fit. It's fastest infantry unit we have but nothing else really and bikes are still faster.
1.) Can be put into transports.
2.) Can benefit from Might from beyond. This is pretty awesome against T8.
3.) They can use perfect ambush boosting their chances to charge to 74% and can use cult ambush in general.
4.) They can use all the buffs from the GSC list, like the clamavus +1 to advance and charge.
There might be more reasons. I personally find both versions appealing. The Tyranids version works better if you advance up the field. The Purestrains are better for getting buffed and coming from cult ambush.
1.) Can be put into transports.
2.) Can benefit from Might from beyond. This is pretty awesome against T8.
3.) They can use perfect ambush boosting their chances to charge to 74% and can use cult ambush in general.
4.) They can use all the buffs from the GSC list, like the clamavus +1 to advance and charge.
There might be more reasons. I personally find both versions appealing. The Tyranids version works better if you advance up the field. The Purestrains are better for getting buffed and coming from cult ambush.
Another reason to take a GS Patriarch, is the stratagem “Broodcoven,” which for 1 CP, if you have a Patriarch, you get to give a free Warlord trait to a Magus and a Primus in your list. Yum!
Having given the codex a solid read-through, I think overall it's a mid-tier dex in casual games, and can be twisted into something super nasty in a competitive nid soup list. If (big if IMO) brood brothers retain the ability to receive orders, that competitive soup list will likely be a small GSC detachment of CTFAE, a large GSC detachment of a combat oriented faction in the Anointed Throng vigilius detachment, and a supreme command of Guard HQs to order Brood Bro infantry squads.
If they lose the ability to take orders, I think the shine is offiically off Brood Brothers, and the norm will be nid soup, with the nids providing anti-infantry clearing capabilities and the cult supplying large target removal.The question is going to be how you can efficiently sweep up screens turn 1 to allow the aberrant bomb to use all your CP and shred the opposing army.
The thing I like most about the competitive combo TBH is that its inevitable nerfing will most likely not affect casual GSC lists in any appreciable way. There are a ton of units that do what aberrants do but 100% worse atm, and they will be usable once aberrants become not insane (which they are, right now. Utterly, utterly insane. They may actually be what it takes to unseat the castellan meta.)
Besides aberrants, honestly the craziest thing out of the gsc codex is...guardsmen with orders. If those get nerfed, uh...
"Guardsmen Guardsmen they're our men, if they can't do it GREAT!"
FRFSRF that deep strikes into range with a 20-man squadcap is almost certainly the second-most busted thing in the codex. Followed by Nexos after that. Good job GW, give the Relic/WL Trait free CP regen bot to a faction that starts with 20cp...
Also, funny thing I noticed: RAW, Locus can heroically intervene in your charge phase. His rule says
"in the charge phase, when your opponent has finished all his charge moves, this model can heroically intervene..."
Doesn't say your opponent's charge phase, just says "the charge phase" lol.
"Okay, it's my charge phase, have you finished all your charge moves? Anyone? Custode bikers using that 3CP strat? Bueller? OK, so this guy who I used Lying in Wait on is going to Heroically Intervene - NOT CHARGE - into your lines."
the_scotsman wrote: Having given the codex a solid read-through, I think overall it's a mid-tier dex in casual games, and can be twisted into something super nasty in a competitive nid soup list. If (big if IMO) brood brothers retain the ability to receive orders, that competitive soup list will likely be a small GSC detachment of CTFAE, a large GSC detachment of a combat oriented faction in the Anointed Throng vigilius detachment, and a supreme command of Guard HQs to order Brood Bro infantry squads.
If they lose the ability to take orders, I think the shine is offiically off Brood Brothers, and the norm will be nid soup, with the nids providing anti-infantry clearing capabilities and the cult supplying large target removal.The question is going to be how you can efficiently sweep up screens turn 1 to allow the aberrant bomb to use all your CP and shred the opposing army.
The thing I like most about the competitive combo TBH is that its inevitable nerfing will most likely not affect casual GSC lists in any appreciable way. There are a ton of units that do what aberrants do but 100% worse atm, and they will be usable once aberrants become not insane (which they are, right now. Utterly, utterly insane. They may actually be what it takes to unseat the castellan meta.)
Besides aberrants, honestly the craziest thing out of the gsc codex is...guardsmen with orders. If those get nerfed, uh...
"Guardsmen Guardsmen they're our men, if they can't do it GREAT!"
FRFSRF that deep strikes into range with a 20-man squadcap is almost certainly the second-most busted thing in the codex. Followed by Nexos after that. Good job GW, give the Relic/WL Trait free CP regen bot to a faction that starts with 20cp...
Also, funny thing I noticed: RAW, Locus can heroically intervene in your charge phase. His rule says
"in the charge phase, when your opponent has finished all his charge moves, this model can heroically intervene..."
Doesn't say your opponent's charge phase, just says "the charge phase" lol.
"Okay, it's my charge phase, have you finished all your charge moves? Anyone? Custode bikers using that 3CP strat? Bueller? OK, so this guy who I used Lying in Wait on is going to Heroically Intervene - NOT CHARGE - into your lines."
I may be missing something, but doesnt the codex say they cannot use Orders?
From Page 108:
These ASTRA MILITARUM Detachments are then known as BROOD BROTHERS Detachments
BROOD BROTHERS Detachments do not gain any of the Detachment abilities listed in Codex: Astra Militarum, such as Regimental Doctrines, nor can they use any regiment-specific Stratagems, Orders etc.
the_scotsman wrote: Having given the codex a solid read-through, I think overall it's a mid-tier dex in casual games, and can be twisted into something super nasty in a competitive nid soup list. If (big if IMO) brood brothers retain the ability to receive orders, that competitive soup list will likely be a small GSC detachment of CTFAE, a large GSC detachment of a combat oriented faction in the Anointed Throng vigilius detachment, and a supreme command of Guard HQs to order Brood Bro infantry squads.
If they lose the ability to take orders, I think the shine is offiically off Brood Brothers, and the norm will be nid soup, with the nids providing anti-infantry clearing capabilities and the cult supplying large target removal.The question is going to be how you can efficiently sweep up screens turn 1 to allow the aberrant bomb to use all your CP and shred the opposing army.
The thing I like most about the competitive combo TBH is that its inevitable nerfing will most likely not affect casual GSC lists in any appreciable way. There are a ton of units that do what aberrants do but 100% worse atm, and they will be usable once aberrants become not insane (which they are, right now. Utterly, utterly insane. They may actually be what it takes to unseat the castellan meta.)
Besides aberrants, honestly the craziest thing out of the gsc codex is...guardsmen with orders. If those get nerfed, uh...
"Guardsmen Guardsmen they're our men, if they can't do it GREAT!"
FRFSRF that deep strikes into range with a 20-man squadcap is almost certainly the second-most busted thing in the codex. Followed by Nexos after that. Good job GW, give the Relic/WL Trait free CP regen bot to a faction that starts with 20cp...
Also, funny thing I noticed: RAW, Locus can heroically intervene in your charge phase. His rule says
"in the charge phase, when your opponent has finished all his charge moves, this model can heroically intervene..."
Doesn't say your opponent's charge phase, just says "the charge phase" lol.
"Okay, it's my charge phase, have you finished all your charge moves? Anyone? Custode bikers using that 3CP strat? Bueller? OK, so this guy who I used Lying in Wait on is going to Heroically Intervene - NOT CHARGE - into your lines."
I may be missing something, but doesnt the codex say they cannot use Orders?
From Page 108:
These ASTRA MILITARUM Detachments are then known as BROOD BROTHERS Detachments
BROOD BROTHERS Detachments do not gain any of the Detachment abilities listed in Codex: Astra Militarum, such as Regimental Doctrines, nor can they use any regiment-specific Stratagems, Orders etc.
At this point, it's unclear, because there are actually "regiment-specific orders". I think the way most people (myself included) would read that rule is "Regiment specific stratagems, Regiment-specific orders, Regiment-specific relics" rather than "Regiment-specific stratagems, ANY orders, ANY relics"
Now, am I gonna play it that way until the 2-week FAQ? no. the damage output you get from a 20 man infantry squad that can pop down right into FRFSRF range is patently absurd (it does solidly more damage per point than the dreaded Handflamer blob that costs 2CP to use)
1.) Can be put into transports.
2.) Can benefit from Might from beyond. This is pretty awesome against T8.
3.) They can use perfect ambush boosting their chances to charge to 74% and can use cult ambush in general.
4.) They can use all the buffs from the GSC list, like the clamavus +1 to advance and charge.
There might be more reasons. I personally find both versions appealing. The Tyranids version works better if you advance up the field. The Purestrains are better for getting buffed and coming from cult ambush.
Another reason to take a GS Patriarch, is the stratagem “Broodcoven,” which for 1 CP, if you have a Patriarch, you get to give a free Warlord trait to a Magus and a Primus in your list. Yum!
And then you give the Primus the Cult of the Four Armed Emperor Warlord Trait, so he gets D3 extra CP. Worst case scenario if you rolll a 1 is that the stratagem was free and you get an extra re-roll (almost worth a CP in itself) and a trait for your Magus too.
One thing I like with the new chapter approved missions is that if you’re in a very close game with only a single unit left on the board that has to grab an objective on your next turn, you can Return to the Shadows without the game automatically ending as usual with no units left on the board.
Turn 1: Crusaders use Act of Faith to move as if it's the movement phase. Advance.
In the movement phase, Crusaders and Track and Field Coach Advance.
In the psychic phase, psykers pass cups of gatorade to the runners of the hundred yard pants-steal, giving them -1 to hit and 2++ saves.
In the shooting phase, Track and Field coach uses first order to order himself to PUT THE HUSTLE ON BABY, catching up to the crusaders with Move Move Move.
For his second order, Track and Field Coach orders the crusaders to Move Move Move.
Crusaders advance again, having moved 18"+3D6" that turn, they should now be 1.001" from the enemy lines.
They are -1 to hit, 2++ save, if the enemy chooses to charge them, on their turn they will fight 3 times in combat with AOF, Fix Bayonets and regular fight.
If you can get a priest over to them in time (possibly by valkyrie drop?) you can get them to attack 9 times each per round.
Also, funny thing I noticed: RAW, Locus can heroically intervene in your charge phase. His rule says
"in the charge phase, when your opponent has finished all his charge moves, this model can heroically intervene..."
Doesn't say your opponent's charge phase, just says "the charge phase" lol.
"Okay, it's my charge phase, have you finished all your charge moves? Anyone? Custode bikers using that 3CP strat? Bueller? OK, so this guy who I used Lying in Wait on is going to Heroically Intervene - NOT CHARGE - into your lines."
Can we talk about this for a second? If this is RAI, it is the most hilarious part of the codex and the locus becomes an auto take for me. Just for the lolz. His -1ld bubble can now be put to use without suiciding him, he can engage an enemy without overwatch and might even kill something. It's just more leadership shenanigans for your psychic phase. Plus you tie up a tank.
I also think the genestealers are worth it. Not as good as aberrants, but nothing is at this point. They might be over costed, but I think that would be aan easy fix by just giving them 4 attacks base and removing the flurry of claws rule. Aberrants should also lose cult creeds and I think they will be fair.
I am Currently designing a list to use 35 of them, some in transports, some in deep strike. They are in a bladed cog detachment so are not loosing out on meele upgrades. With the various buffs, they can be truly powerful and deepstriking BS3+ lascannons from the neophytes+alphus is a big t2 punch.
Gordoape wrote: With everyone talking about how amazing abberrants are (great!) how many are you actually planning on taking? 20? 30+?
Frankly I think more than 1 unit of 10 is overkill. 5 with hammers, 5 with picks just to take wounds.
With twisted helix and anointed throng they are the perfect smashcaptain-esque CP hogger unit.
Show up.
Perfect ambush to move 1d6" closer.
Anointed throng trait gives them +1 to charge, throw a clamavus in there for another +1, they basically can't fail that charge.
Fight for the anointed one, Devotion til death, and the twisted helix stratagem pretty much lets them fight as much as they need to to kill anything that needs to get dead in the enemy army.
Really the only thing I'd want to have with them is something that can super reliably tank overwatch for them. That's one reason I'm strongly considering allied Vulture gunships: They can go hovermode and still move stupidly far, letting them clear infantry turn 1 and then turn 2 zip up the board and charge to tank overwatch.
Or you could get less fancy with it and just run in with something else first.
The Aberrant bomb is something i'm considering splashing into my Tyranid list as a nice answer to knights. Question is whether the Abominant is needed too. He kind of fills that smash-captain role all by himself to some degree.
Also, funny thing I noticed: RAW, Locus can heroically intervene in your charge phase. His rule says
"in the charge phase, when your opponent has finished all his charge moves, this model can heroically intervene..."
Doesn't say your opponent's charge phase, just says "the charge phase" lol.
"Okay, it's my charge phase, have you finished all your charge moves? Anyone? Custode bikers using that 3CP strat? Bueller? OK, so this guy who I used Lying in Wait on is going to Heroically Intervene - NOT CHARGE - into your lines."
Except you cannot Heroic Intervene in your own charge phase by rule.
I may be missing something, but doesnt the codex say they cannot use Orders?
From Page 108:
These ASTRA MILITARUM Detachments are then known as BROOD BROTHERS Detachments
BROOD BROTHERS Detachments do not gain any of the Detachment abilities listed in Codex: Astra Militarum, such as Regimental Doctrines, nor can they use any regiment-specific Stratagems, Orders etc.
RAW you are correct, they could not use Orders, however reading that whole rule it appears that context is regiment specific stuff.
Sotahullu wrote: Well I have planned on getting 5 Aberrants, all with hammers, and see how it goes there.
Heck, for some reason aberrants don't take any extra space in transports so I am planning using my Rockgrinder as heavy delivery device.
Just don't expect that Rockgrinder to survive the first turn. In my experience, Goliath-chassis vehicles are too fragile to survive a turn of serious attention from your opponent's firepower. That's why I usually just put neophytes in them, although I do love me some Rockgrinders just on an aesthetic level.
I am hopefully going to get a game in this weekend, and wanted to try a list that I could run using mostly just my existing army. We really have an embarrassment of riches in terms of how you can run your list, which is great, but I am having trouble settling on a cult trait. Due to the current anti-knight meta, I was thinking about having a bit of fun and running an all infantry list, but honestly I looking at this more as an experiment than as a hardcore competitive list, and just want to get some games in so I can learn the codex. Here is what I was thinking, comments welcome.
Spoiler:
1500 points, 2x battalion, 1x vanguard detachment
Battalion 1:
HQ:
Magus w/familiar
Patriarch w/familiar
Troops:
Acolytes x 10
- Demo charges x4
Acolytes x 10
- Rock Saw x 4
Acolytes x 10
-Drill x 1
-Rock Cutter x 1
-Icon
Battalion 2:
HQ:
Acolyte Iconward
Primus
Troops:
Neophytes x 10
-Seismic Cannon x 2
-Autogun x 8
Neophytes x 10
- Mining Laser x 2
- Grenade Launcher x 2
- Autogun x 6
Neophytes x 10
- Mining Laser x 2
- Grenade Launcher x 2
- Autogun x 6
Neophytes x 12
- Webber x 2
- Web Pistol/Power Maul on the Leader
- Shotgun x 8
- Heavy Stubber
Neophytes x 10
- Flamers x 2
- Shotguns x 10
Vanguard (Anointed Throng Specialist Detachment)
HQ: The Abominant (Field Commander, Blessed Sledgehammer)
Elites:
Aberrants x 6
- Picks and Stop Sign
Aberrrants x 5
- Hammerants
Locus
The game plan would be to have all acolytes, aberrants, iconward, abominant and primus underground while the neophytes, magus and patriarch start on the board. Patriarch keeps the mob fearless while Magus hangs out nearby. Locus stays with the Patriarch and Magus and intercepts incoming threats/eats wounds. I will probably use the Lying in Wait strat on the demo charge acolytes T2 to blow up something big while also Perfect Ambushing one of my Aberrant units (which one I use it on will be dictated by in-game circumstances)
The questions I am looking at are what cult traits are worth taking, especially if I am going to be my usual self and decline to take more than one. I just feel a bit cheesy taking multiple traits within a single army, although I can definitely see the benefits for competitive play. Right now I am leaning towards 4 armed emperor for the extra 1" charge and getting access to the Vect stratagem. Twisted Helix also seems really nasty, especially with Acolytes, as S5 really seems to be the sweet spot for putting the hurt on a wide variety of targets. It's also obviously great on Aberrants. On the other hand, Rusted Claw and Bladed Cog both seem great for Neophytes. Rusted Claw neophytes in cover are a nice anvil that is really hard to clear that first turn, whereas Bladed Cog lets me move up all those heavy weapons I'm running and take board control without suffering a to-hit penalty. That seems pretty good too. About the only ones I'm not feeling right now are Hivecult (since I'm not using 20 man neophyte units, and am spending points on a Patriarch that will make them fearless anyway) and Pauper Princes. Decisions, decisions...
Also not too sure about warlord traits and relics at this point, other than that I know I will be taking an Anointed Throng specialist detachment with an Abominant Field Commander w/the special warlord trait from Vigilus and the relic sledgehammer that doesn't have a -1 to hit penalty. Since my Patriarch has to be the Warlord, I am considering using the Broodcoven strat to give my Primus and Magus WL traits, but beyond that, idk.
Gordoape wrote: With everyone talking about how amazing abberrants are (great!) how many are you actually planning on taking? 20? 30+?
Well just bear in mind the point costs here.
A unit of 4 Picks + Hypermorph with Hammer is 182 pts
A Unit of 4 Hammers + Hypermorph with Hammer is 210 pts
I guess it depends on the point level, but I'm still looking at Acolytes if you want 30+ models of CC fun.
132 and 160 points respectively for those isn't it?
Maybe I'm adding something up incorrectly. Any idea where the extra 50 points might be coming from?
Bit of advice, only really just started GSC( all hail our new alien overlords!!), now the thing i am stuck on is FA slot, i was leaning towards sentinels, however with the new bikes and ridge buggy, and rule of cool i am torn. I plan on playing COTFAE brigade but i am confused on really which to take, any help/opinions?
Bit of advice, only really just started GSC( all hail our new alien overlords!!), now the thing i am stuck on is FA slot, i was leaning towards sentinels, however with the new bikes and ridge buggy, and rule of cool i am torn. I plan on playing COTFAE brigade but i am confused on really which to take, any help/opinions?
While I don't think you would be wrong in taking either one, keep a few things in mind:
The bikers have good synergy with demo charges + stratagems. You can alpha strike the crap out of a very scary unit with Extra Explosives. But you can only do it once. How much do you value the ability to do that? Do you have another unit already that can do that? DO you need a close support unit after they blow their demo charges? Shotguns + Atalan Incinerator on a quad would do that.
Or do you need long range fire support? Because if you do then you better take those armored sentinels over the Bikes. They are also one of the only ways to get Plasma without allies.
Gordoape wrote: With everyone talking about how amazing abberrants are (great!) how many are you actually planning on taking? 20? 30+?
Well just bear in mind the point costs here.
A unit of 4 Picks + Hypermorph with Hammer is 182 pts A Unit of 4 Hammers + Hypermorph with Hammer is 210 pts
I guess it depends on the point level, but I'm still looking at Acolytes if you want 30+ models of CC fun.
132 and 160 points respectively for those isn't it? Maybe I'm adding something up incorrectly. Any idea where the extra 50 points might be coming from?
Yes you're right I just redid my math. I have no idea where the extra points came from either. Edited post to reflect my bad math skills.
Araablane wrote: I feel really stupid right now but im looking at the Atalan Jackals profile and i cant see where it says it can take demolition charges.
They are simply listed as a weapon in their wargear list.
Araablane wrote: I feel really stupid right now but im looking at the Atalan Jackals profile and i cant see where it says it can take demolition charges.
Sotahullu wrote: Well I have planned on getting 5 Aberrants, all with hammers, and see how it goes there.
Heck, for some reason aberrants don't take any extra space in transports so I am planning using my Rockgrinder as heavy delivery device.
Just don't expect that Rockgrinder to survive the first turn. In my experience, Goliath-chassis vehicles are too fragile to survive a turn of serious attention from your opponent's firepower. That's why I usually just put neophytes in them, although I do love me some Rockgrinders just on an aesthetic level.
I am hopefully going to get a game in this weekend, and wanted to try a list that I could run using mostly just my existing army. We really have an embarrassment of riches in terms of how you can run your list, which is great, but I am having trouble settling on a cult trait. Due to the current anti-knight meta, I was thinking about having a bit of fun and running an all infantry list, but honestly I looking at this more as an experiment than as a hardcore competitive list, and just want to get some games in so I can learn the codex. Here is what I was thinking, comments welcome.
[spoiler]
1500 points, 2x battalion, 1x vanguard detachment
Battalion 1:
HQ:
Magus w/familiar
Patriarch w/familiar
Troops:
Acolytes x 10
- Demo charges x4
Acolytes x 10
- Rock Saw x 4
Acolytes x 10
-Drill x 1
-Rock Cutter x 1
-Icon
Battalion 2:
HQ:
Acolyte Iconward
Primus
Troops:
Neophytes x 10
-Seismic Cannon x 2
-Autogun x 8
Neophytes x 10
- Mining Laser x 2
- Grenade Launcher x 2
- Autogun x 6
Neophytes x 10
- Mining Laser x 2
- Grenade Launcher x 2
- Autogun x 6
Neophytes x 12
- Webber x 2
- Web Pistol/Power Maul on the Leader
- Shotgun x 8
- Heavy Stubber
Neophytes x 10
- Flamers x 2
- Shotguns x 10
Vanguard (Anointed Throng Specialist Detachment)
HQ: The Abominant (Field Commander, Blessed Sledgehammer)
Elites:
Aberrants x 6
- Picks and Stop Sign
Aberrrants x 5
- Hammerants
Locus
The game plan would be to have all acolytes, aberrants, iconward, abominant and primus underground while the neophytes, magus and patriarch start on the board. Patriarch keeps the mob fearless while Magus hangs out nearby. Locus stays with the Patriarch and Magus and intercepts incoming threats/eats wounds. I will probably use the Lying in Wait strat on the demo charge acolytes T2 to blow up something big while also Perfect Ambushing one of my Aberrant units (which one I use it on will be dictated by in-game circumstances)
The questions I am looking at are what cult traits are worth taking, especially if I am going to be my usual self and decline to take more than one. I just feel a bit cheesy taking multiple traits within a single army, although I can definitely see the benefits for competitive play. Right now I am leaning towards 4 armed emperor for the extra 1" charge and getting access to the Vect stratagem. Twisted Helix also seems really nasty, especially with Acolytes, as S5 really seems to be the sweet spot for putting the hurt on a wide variety of targets. It's also obviously great on Aberrants. On the other hand, Rusted Claw and Bladed Cog both seem great for Neophytes. Rusted Claw neophytes in cover are a nice anvil that is really hard to clear that first turn, whereas Bladed Cog lets me move up all those heavy weapons I'm running and take board control without suffering a to-hit penalty. That seems pretty good too. About the only ones I'm not feeling right now are Hivecult (since I'm not using 20 man neophyte units, and am spending points on a Patriarch that will make them fearless anyway) and Pauper Princes. Decisions, decisions...
Also not too sure about warlord traits and relics at this point, other than that I know I will be taking an Anointed Throng specialist detachment with an Abominant Field Commander w/the special warlord trait from Vigilus and the relic sledgehammer that doesn't have a -1 to hit penalty. Since my Patriarch has to be the Warlord, I am considering using the Broodcoven strat to give my Primus and Magus WL traits, but beyond that, idk.
[/spoiler]
If your army contains a patriarch, no other genestealer cults character or brood brothers character can be your Warlord. (page 108 Codex Genestealer Cults)
I personally thought about giving one squad of Jackals autoguns and democharges instead of shotguns and running them as cheap fire support but for whatever reason only Squad leader can take autogun so there went that idea.
This gentleman says that he has a source close to GW, who says that the Orders for Brood Brothers are here to stay. I don't know if it is true, but though I would add it here for your consumption.
4 shotguns+ demo charges and heavy incinerator+ demo charge is legal in Jackals? I dont understand why the kit comes with only 3 shotguns and 2 demo charges, this kit feels stupid.
Araablane wrote: 4 shotguns+ demo charges and heavy incinerator+ demo charge is legal in Jackals?
I dont understand why the kit comes with only 3 shotguns and 2 demo charges, this kit feels stupid.
I'm just going to use spare shotguns and demo charges from the Neophyte and Acolyte kits but yeah, it is pretty stupid that they don't include enough to go around.
Also, funny thing I noticed: RAW, Locus can heroically intervene in your charge phase. His rule says
"in the charge phase, when your opponent has finished all his charge moves, this model can heroically intervene..."
Doesn't say your opponent's charge phase, just says "the charge phase" lol.
"Okay, it's my charge phase, have you finished all your charge moves? Anyone? Custode bikers using that 3CP strat? Bueller? OK, so this guy who I used Lying in Wait on is going to Heroically Intervene - NOT CHARGE - into your lines."
Except you cannot Heroic Intervene in your own charge phase by rule.
I may be missing something, but doesnt the codex say they cannot use Orders?
From Page 108:
These ASTRA MILITARUM Detachments are then known as BROOD BROTHERS Detachments
BROOD BROTHERS Detachments do not gain any of the Detachment abilities listed in Codex: Astra Militarum, such as Regimental Doctrines, nor can they use any regiment-specific Stratagems, Orders etc.
RAW you are correct, they could not use Orders, however reading that whole rule it appears that context is regiment specific stuff.
The problem is this is a game without usrs. So you can't heroically intervene on your turn but the locus has a different identically worded rule....so gw has to go in and faq it again....
Araablane wrote: 4 shotguns+ demo charges and heavy incinerator+ demo charge is legal in Jackals?
I dont understand why the kit comes with only 3 shotguns and 2 demo charges, this kit feels stupid.
Araablane wrote: 4 shotguns+ demo charges and heavy incinerator+ demo charge is legal in Jackals?
I dont understand why the kit comes with only 3 shotguns and 2 demo charges, this kit feels stupid.
Probably because most kits aren't designed with the optimum loadout in mind. Look on the bright side - you could be building deathwatch!
If you don't have a spare shotgun and grenade throwing arm lying around, you must have..never bought a single neophyte kit?
A unit of 8 bikes plus 2 quads all with shotguns, 5x demo charge, 3x cult knife, 2x Heavy stubber is only 139pts. This gives it some durability in case you need to weather a turn of opp shooting before deploying your demo charges :-)
DoomMouse wrote: I might be being stupid here, but is there any way to make brood brother units pop up from underground?
Yes, they have Cult Ambush. At least the Brood Brothers in the GSC book have it.
Thanks, think I'd got confused!
Wow, that'd crazy powerful if they do retain orders then. 20 4pt guardsmen deepstriking for free into FRFSRF range is pretty brutal. Just need to have a commander close to the front line to issue it when they come in (or a tempestor prime I guess)
3.) 10 Neophytes with 2 GL, 2 Heavy Stubbers - 19.64 ppw
4.) Mortar HWT - 20.57 ppw
If you consider the +1 to hit buff by Jackal Alphus the Neophytes win by a lot with 14.21 ppw.
It is worth noting that Atalan Jackals are pretty good at screen clearing but also have a lot of drawbacks for this. You cannot really easily reach the 6 inch short range for shotguns in the first turn and they will be super exposed afterwards.
The Heavy Bolter HWT might be more popular in comparison to AMHWT with heavy bolters, because you can cult ambush them in a perfect screen clearing position. They are also significantly better against MEQ screens.
[Edit] 20 Brood Brother infantry with a FRFSRF company commander have a very good 16.5 ppw. But this is of course a bit harder to pull of.
Also not too sure about warlord traits and relics at this point, other than that I know I will be taking an Anointed Throng specialist detachment with an Abominant Field Commander w/the special warlord trait from Vigilus and the relic sledgehammer that doesn't have a -1 to hit penalty. Since my Patriarch has to be the Warlord, I am considering using the Broodcoven strat to give my Primus and Magus WL traits, but beyond that, idk.
[/spoiler]
If your army contains a patriarch, no other genestealer cults character or brood brothers character can be your Warlord. (page 108 Codex Genestealer Cults)
Not sure I understand the objection. The last line of my post recognized that the Patriarch has to be the warlord. The question was what warlord traits and cult traits to use, assuming I am going to use the Broodcoven strat to give the magus and primus a WL trait? I think I have settled on cult of the four armed emperor, and then will stick the +1A/+1S trait on the Patriarch, the +D3 CP trait on the Magus, and the +3" aura range trait on the Primus. The +D3 command point trait essentially pays for me to use Broodcoven, which is nice.
Also not too sure about warlord traits and relics at this point, other than that I know I will be taking an Anointed Throng specialist detachment with an Abominant Field Commander w/the special warlord trait from Vigilus and the relic sledgehammer that doesn't have a -1 to hit penalty. Since my Patriarch has to be the Warlord, I am considering using the Broodcoven strat to give my Primus and Magus WL traits, but beyond that, idk.
[/spoiler]
If your army contains a patriarch, no other genestealer cults character or brood brothers character can be your Warlord. (page 108 Codex Genestealer Cults)
Not sure I understand the objection. The last line of my post recognized that the Patriarch has to be the warlord. The question was what warlord traits and cult traits to use, assuming I am going to use the Broodcoven strat to give the magus and primus a WL trait? I think I have settled on cult of the four armed emperor, and then will stick the +1A/+1S trait on the Patriarch, the +D3 CP trait on the Magus, and the +3" aura range trait on the Primus. The +D3 command point trait essentially pays for me to use Broodcoven, which is nice.
Note there is no restriction that these 3 have to be in the same detachment so if you are going competitive and using multiple Cultures then you can theoretically have one in each allowing for some cool relic and WL trait customization.
Gordoape wrote: Do people feel that Purestrains are not worth taking at this point? Better just to stick with acolytes and aberrants?
I think Purestrains are really strong. For the price of about 2 full Acolytes squads, it hits similarly hard with Might factored in, but unlike deepstriking acolytes you can get the entire unit in at the one turn. You can also use pre-game buff strat for extra mileage, and also they get a natural 2+ WS from. Patriarch without needing a Primus. Good tool to have in the book, no. longer autotake. Great choice for an allied C4E detachment for Nids imo.
Anointed Throng Abominants in a 4-armed Emperor detachment with a Clamavus can get your Aberrants in on a 6” charge.
I think for best results I’d Perfect Ambush a Primus in with them for the reroll 1’s to wound and +1 hit, and for complete overkill drop a Biophagus and Magus in to buff them as well.
That’s one nice thing about your options here, you can pump a unit up to extreme levels of damage if you’re willing to put the effort into it.
Well, biophagus is start of movement phase. Bets way to use him is to deploy the unit and buff it, then return to shadows turn 1, but I am not sure it is worth the risk.
I've been reading and re-reading the book to see what interesting things I could find. Wanted to get people's thoughts on a few things.
Hybrid Metamorphs - With a pair of talons, they have five attacks each and a +1 to hit. Seems like they can be fairly independent, and at 120 points for a full unit (with a Cult Icon), they seem like a halfway decent unit.
Ridgerunners - Seems to me like taking advantage of their scout move just makes them more of a turn 1 target, and there's not a really good way to mitigate the -1 to hit for mounted heavy weapons. Is this another one of those "use ability A, or gear B, but not both effectively" units?
Cult of the Bladed Cog seems to work well with shooty infantry. Would it even be worth it to run a bunch of shooty Neophyte squads (with heavy weapons) in Goliaths? Gets points spendy pretty quick, but seems like it could be OK.
Are Jackals anywhere near durable enough to do anything besides a one-and-done kind of strike?
Are Russes even worth the points at all? Seems like a "no" to me.
Red Corsair wrote: Well, biophagus is start of movement phase. Bets way to use him is to deploy the unit and buff it, then return to shadows turn 1, but I am not sure it is worth the risk.
Biophaus is "...end of each movement phase." So he can deploy from underground together with aberrants. still not sure I'll use him, but it is a possibility.
Red Corsair wrote: Well, biophagus is start of movement phase. Bets way to use him is to deploy the unit and buff it, then return to shadows turn 1, but I am not sure it is worth the risk.
Biophaus is "...end of each movement phase." So he can deploy from underground together with aberrants. still not sure I'll use him, but it is a possibility.
Actually I am not sure. Deploying underground is at the end of the movement phase. Biophagus ability is also at the end of the movement phase. Normally GW's ruling is that "end of the movement phase" means you cannot do anything else after this.
So is this legal?
-1 LD the Horror (Nid allies)
-1 LD Locus (use strat to deploy closer if necessary)
C grade (unreliable, gimmicky)
-1 LD jorm relic on Flyrant (Nid allies)
D grade (don't even bother)
-2 LD Terrifying Visions (AM allies)
terrifying visions is WC 7 spell on a walking HQ from an ally that isn't really beneficial to take in the first place
If I'm forgetting something let me know. I'll edit this into the OP
Even with the reliable and easy to set up stuff you can autokill a Baneblade and are likely to take a considerable number of wounds from a knight before you roll a 1 to their 6, if not one-shot it.
Surely, there's no way this is surviving an FAQ? I'd expect it to be changed to target enemy infantry only.
-1 LD the Horror (Nid allies)
-1 LD Locus (use strat to deploy closer if necessary)
C grade (unreliable, gimmicky)
-1 LD jorm relic on Flyrant (Nid allies)
D grade (don't even bother)
-2 LD Terrifying Visions (AM allies)
terrifying visions is WC 7 spell on a walking HQ from an ally that isn't really beneficial to take in the first place
If I'm forgetting something let me know. I'll edit this into the OP
Even with the reliable and easy to set up stuff you can autokill a Baneblade and are likely to take a considerable number of wounds from a knight before you roll a 1 to their 6, if not one-shot it.
Surely, there's no way this is surviving an FAQ? I'd expect it to be changed to target enemy infantry only.
Have at it in the meantime, though!
that's what I'm thinking. People say it takes a lot of moving pieces, but yeah, those moving pieces don't really cost a lot and all come with other benefits. The ability to autowin games vs people with LoW just by casting a single power, is a real "feel bad" moment and exactly the sort of thing the design team wants gone. Use it while it's here, not like any of the models are bad, but I wouldn't expect it to last long.
On the other hand it is a pretty hard counter to Castellans, which dominate the meta so much. This might single-handedly break their dominance.
But I also agree that negating one broken thing with another broken thing is stupid.
Astmeister wrote: On the other hand it is a pretty hard counter to Castellans, which dominate the meta so much. This might single-handedly break their dominance.
But I also agree that negating one broken thing with another broken thing is stupid.
It's called armsrace and supplies the supplier with money....
I had another 1500pt battle with the cult yesterday. This time against Blood Angels. I tried the Hivecult Gene Sect out and I have to say I am really really impressed. I genuinely think it might be a hidden gem and one of the more powerful traits. How I leveraged it was I put a Magus, Jackal Alphus, Iconward and Patriarch Underground along with 60 Neophytes. I brought them all in on T2 in a big blob, with layers of Neos screening the characters. Thanks to the Jackel Alphus I was able to give +1 to hit against a unit and with the Hivelord Warlord Trait I had reroll 1s to hit. I managed to do a wound with the first squad, so I popped the Hivecult Strat, Chilling Efficiency and I got another +1 to hit. Suddenly my neos were hitting on 2s rerolling 1s against one of the enemy units, in this case I was able to kill a whole bunch of scouts. Which was important as I still had a big blob of acolytes that I wanted to bring in after clearing the enemy screen.
When the Blood Angels countered with Sanguinary Guard and a Captain, I was able to fall back and still shoot. Even though I was at -1, I again used the Jackal Alphus and bam, hitting on 4s, I managed to sneak a wound on to the Sang Guard with the Jackels sniper and again I used chilling efficiency. So even though I had fallen back I could still hit the chosen enemy unit on 3s rerolling 1s.
It was really powerful and I think if I was able to take a few heavy weapons (i was just spamming autoguns) and I took another of these blobs then it will be extremely powerful list. Now this blob did cost me 628 points, so its not cheap. But you could make it cheaper by taking a Kelamorph and you dont need the Magus in the blob either. I found the Key part was the reroll 1s, the +1/+2 to hit and the 6+ Feel No pain from the banner. Morale was not an issue as I was either fearless or only took 1 or 2 extra casualties due to the Hivecult Trait.
I am looking forward to trying out the other Gene Sects. I have used Bladed Cog, Twiste Helix and now Hivecult. I will be trying out Rusted Claw next I think and see how durable my Neos can get!
Also I have heard a rumour that Metal Onslaught is going to be based on Unmodified Leadership. So it will still be powerful but not OP.
if that was the plan they would have just made the drill a LoW killer or some gak. This is not a big profitable decision how it currently stands. Hell the only unit released this decade involved in the combo, is the Clamavus.
FatBoyNoSlim wrote: I had another 1500pt battle with the cult yesterday. This time against Blood Angels. I tried the Hivecult Gene Sect out and I have to say I am really really impressed. I genuinely think it might be a hidden gem and one of the more powerful traits. How I leveraged it was I put a Magus, Jackal Alphus, Iconward and Patriarch Underground along with 60 Neophytes. I brought them all in on T2 in a big blob, with layers of Neos screening the characters. Thanks to the Jackel Alphus I was able to give +1 to hit against a unit and with the Hivelord Warlord Trait I had reroll 1s to hit. I managed to do a wound with the first squad, so I popped the Hivecult Strat, Chilling Efficiency and I got another +1 to hit. Suddenly my neos were hitting on 2s rerolling 1s against one of the enemy units, in this case I was able to kill a whole bunch of scouts. Which was important as I still had a big blob of acolytes that I wanted to bring in after clearing the enemy screen.
When the Blood Angels countered with Sanguinary Guard and a Captain, I was able to fall back and still shoot. Even though I was at -1, I again used the Jackal Alphus and bam, hitting on 4s, I managed to sneak a wound on to the Sang Guard with the Jackels sniper and again I used chilling efficiency. So even though I had fallen back I could still hit the chosen enemy unit on 3s rerolling 1s.
It was really powerful and I think if I was able to take a few heavy weapons (i was just spamming autoguns) and I took another of these blobs then it will be extremely powerful list. Now this blob did cost me 628 points, so its not cheap. But you could make it cheaper by taking a Kelamorph and you dont need the Magus in the blob either. I found the Key part was the reroll 1s, the +1/+2 to hit and the 6+ Feel No pain from the banner. Morale was not an issue as I was either fearless or only took 1 or 2 extra casualties due to the Hivecult Trait.
I am looking forward to trying out the other Gene Sects. I have used Bladed Cog, Twiste Helix and now Hivecult. I will be trying out Rusted Claw next I think and see how durable my Neos can get!
Also I have heard a rumour that Metal Onslaught is going to be based on Unmodified Leadership. So it will still be powerful but not OP.
I really think that all of the Cult Creeds in the codex are good. I know people talk about what's best or most competitive, but just from an overall standpoint I think they are all good. And I'm glad they promote different play styles as well! It's nice to see.
It will be interesting to see what creed performs the best for shooty lists. Hive Cult, Bladed Cog, and Rusted Claw all benefit Neophyte heavy lists, but they all play differently.
Badablack wrote: Anointed Throng Abominants in a 4-armed Emperor detachment with a Clamavus can get your Aberrants in on a 6” charge.
I think for best results I’d Perfect Ambush a Primus in with them for the reroll 1’s to wound and +1 hit, and for complete overkill drop a Biophagus and Magus in to buff them as well.
That’s one nice thing about your options here, you can pump a unit up to extreme levels of damage if you’re willing to put the effort into it.
You absolutely can, the question is really when does it become not worth it.
IMO, I don't think that the points gap between hammer and pick is enough to justify the extra levels of buffing you need to make all picks remove similar targets that hammers can. I think you need to get them at LEAST down to a 7" charge to call them reliable (though if your army's big punch is a unit of aberrants rather than futzing around with getting COTFAE and Annointed with the Abominant with the Relic with the Clamavus...you could just use 3 of your CP to get them D6" closer.)
You want hammers, twisted helix, a biophagus (I find him worth in twisted helix because he can boost the lumpy lads up to S14 with the hammers, giving you wounds on 2 vs vehicles, and attacks/toughness is always useful), Might from Beyond, and a Primus to make them more accurate, and you wand them in Annointed Throng.
I don't love the Abominant at his new price, since if you bring him in as a buff vector he's less likely to make it in by himself, and at his new price point I don't think the buff is worth it on its own.
Annointed Throng Twisted Helix aberrants can just attack as many times as they need to in the round they come in, pretty much enough to make whatever needs to get dead dead.
-1 LD the Horror (Nid allies)
-1 LD Locus (use strat to deploy closer if necessary)
C grade (unreliable, gimmicky)
-1 LD jorm relic on Flyrant (Nid allies)
D grade (don't even bother)
-2 LD Terrifying Visions (AM allies)
terrifying visions is WC 7 spell on a walking HQ from an ally that isn't really beneficial to take in the first place
If I'm forgetting something let me know. I'll edit this into the OP
Even with the reliable and easy to set up stuff you can autokill a Baneblade and are likely to take a considerable number of wounds from a knight before you roll a 1 to their 6, if not one-shot it.
Surely, there's no way this is surviving an FAQ? I'd expect it to be changed to target enemy infantry only.
Have at it in the meantime, though!
At this point, there are so many things that are potentially crazy broken (and for the first time, I mean that like not "oh, this is too strong" just "oh, this is WEIRD and feels like walking through a wall in a video game rather than a thing that is stronger than intended") that unless it is a REAL doozy of an FAQ, there will be stuff getting through.
I love the strats, relics, and cult creeds in this codex, I think they give the player interesting choices. There are a whole hell of a lot of things in this book that the designers cannot have intended, though.
At my current count, you've got:
-Deepstriking FRFSRF brood bros
-Locus' "not heroic intervention" being usable on your turn and combo-able with Lying in Wait
-Lying in Wait transports allowing super easy turn 1 charges
-Move/Fight Thrice brood brother Crusaders
-Mental Onslaught Bomb
-Orderable bullgryns
-BB transports you can stuff full of bullgryns/bulky models because they weren't originally intended to have those models in them
-Rubrics/Horrors/Wyrdvanes chainsploding like ladyfinger firecrackers when Sanctus shoots them
When is the FAQ supposed do drop?
I want to make a 2000 point list that im going to build towards but it seems pointless before the codex FAQ, am i in the right?
What is the problem with the sanctus sniper rifle and horrors etc.?
Sure they get another D3 mortal wounds after one successful wound, but this neither seems broken nor unintentional
Since getting the codex, IV been going back and forth between Acolytes and Abberants to see which unit does the most DMG in terms of PPU (Points per unit) including adding wargear or better weapons.
Forgetting Hive cults, relics and any pysker power bonuses. Which of these units with their configuration preforms better.
Acolytes
Spoiler:
.
Acolyte Hybrids [11 PL, 250pts]: Cult Icon
. . Categories: Troops, Faction: Genestealer Cults, Faction: Tyranids, Infantry, Faction: <Cult>
. . 11x Acolyte Hybrid
. . Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw
. . Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw
. . Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw
. . Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Cutter
. . Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Cutter
. . Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Cutter
. . Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Drill
. . Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Drill
. . Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife
On a general note, I think GW did a great job with this codex. A lot of our Stratgems work really well. The ones that are expensive are worth their cost points and we got a lot of good gems that only cost 1 CP e.g. Broodcoven, Clandestine Goals, Devoted crew, hyper-metabolism etc
My favorite Hive cults is probably Pauper Princes (especially when paired with the Focus of Adoration), Blades Cogs and The Hivecult if running mass Troop choices. I think all the Hive cults are great but those 3 seem very reliable.
Out pysker powers are probably the best powers in the game (on par with Eldar maybe) and with 7 being our highest cast value we should reliable be able to do all our powers. Mental Onslaught is ridiculous.
I haven't spent that much time with the Codex due to a stressful week but I can't wait to dwelve into this codex more.
Anyone able to point out some combos + loop holes that j coudl have possiblity missed out on?
- Use the broodcoven stratagem to get 3 warlord traits.
- Probably get the croughling relic or the +1S Iconward upgrade.
- Blue units get put in ambush and green units get put in ambush with stratagem. Other patriarch could 'go into the shadows' if needed.
- 200 reinforcement points gives me the option to summon (stratagem) one big/tough unit. Thinking about 18 acolytes + 6 rock saws + icon, or 14 purstrains or 6 abberants with heavy power picks.Maybe even another acolyte unit with 20 handflamers or 5 demolition charges, The can be rusted claw or cult of the 4..
I really like the kellermorph but I think at some point you need more boys then toy's. Also not sure if I should go full 'cult of the 4.. 'Because that extra +1 charge can be handy but with rusted claw they're much tougher.
I think rusted claw is better but you need a bit of 'cult of the 4..' to get the counter stratagem and +d3 CP warlord trait.
I think abberants are great but I might be in favour of summoning a full unit of acolytes with 6 rock saws + icon and boost them with 'might from beyond'.
Finally got my codex yesterday, and after thumbing through it, I'm thinking I'll stick to my original plan of going 4-Armed Emperor (they have the best combination of Creed, WL trait, strategem, and relic IMO) with maybe a detachment of Twisted Helix A-bombs. I'll definitely wait until after the FAQ before I start making purchasing decisions, though. I'm surprised I haven't heard more discussion about the 4AE WL trait. Getting a bonus d3 CP seems pretty good. Has everyone just decided that other WL traits are better?
very interesting list! I thought something similar
I would change demolition chargues for saws.
Also I have doubts what cult works better in this kind of lists.. against astra, daemons, battle sisters.. that +1 to armour is good, but against marines, necrons,etc etc, +1 Strength It is a big difference.
my other question is if its better 3 battalions or battalion + brigade.
With the last you win +2cp, you need to spend 250 points in fast and heavy ( sentinels or motorbikes are OK, mortars are really good) but you save a CG too.
Odrankt wrote: Anyone able to point out some combos + loop holes that j coudl have possiblity missed out on?
I have a couple of combos that no one has mentioned yet.
1) Super-Buffer Cult Icon Bearer, made a Warlord via Deliverence Broodsurge field commander stratagem, give him the WL Trait for +3” to Auras (Alien Majesty) and the +1 STR Relic. His 5 Auras now have increased range.
a) 6” Look Out Sir
b) 9” +1 STR c) 9” Re-roll failed morale
d) 9” 6+ Feel No Pain
e) 9” Re-roll 1s for Aberrant’s Feel No Pain
2) Powered Armored Neophytes. Create using Rusted Claw (+1 Save vs AP 0 or -1,) arm them with max range weapons (6 Autoguns, 2 Heavy Stubbers, 2 Grenade Launchers, 60pt 10 man units,) then put them behind Aegis Defence Line (75pts,) maybe even take the Fragdrill (another 75pts) since you already have the fortifications detachment (the drill gives cover and has a portal that gives you a free “Return to the Shadows” each turn) and 1x per game does d3 Mortal Wounds & 1/2 move on a roll of 4+, in a line, on every unit hit, going from one table edge to the another. Maybe buff them the with Jackal Alphus, since the Rusted Claw is the biker’s creed (with move and fire heavy weapons.) You can also deepstrike other units with shorter range weapons into various pieces of cover around the table. And who is going to waste tank killer weapons on a 5pt model with a 3+ save?
EnTyme wrote: Finally got my codex yesterday, and after thumbing through it, I'm thinking I'll stick to my original plan of going 4-Armed Emperor (they have the best combination of Creed, WL trait, strategem, and relic IMO) with maybe a detachment of Twisted Helix A-bombs. I'll definitely wait until after the FAQ before I start making purchasing decisions, though. I'm surprised I haven't heard more discussion about the 4AE WL trait. Getting a bonus d3 CP seems pretty good. Has everyone just decided that other WL traits are better?
While I do like the CotFAE Creed, their Warlord Trait is too generic to be interesting to me. I mean it's never going to be BAD, but I find it bland. There isn't really much to discuss with it.
I really don't like their relic either. I don't think it fits super well onto anything. I would argue that its a waste on the Primus since he's probably going to be swinging with his Toxin Injector Claw anyway.
EnTyme wrote: Finally got my codex yesterday, and after thumbing through it, I'm thinking I'll stick to my original plan of going 4-Armed Emperor (they have the best combination of Creed, WL trait, strategem, and relic IMO) with maybe a detachment of Twisted Helix A-bombs. I'll definitely wait until after the FAQ before I start making purchasing decisions, though. I'm surprised I haven't heard more discussion about the 4AE WL trait. Getting a bonus d3 CP seems pretty good. Has everyone just decided that other WL traits are better?
In my mind, it's already a no-brainer if you have a Patriarch, Primus and Magus. You spend the CP for the Broodcoven strat, then choose the CotFAE warlord trait for one of them. Worst case you break even on CPs and still get the extra traits.
My plan continues to focus on CotFAE, just because I want to lean hard into underground deployment and think that +1" is too good to pass up. But all the creeds seem pretty good.
Astmeister wrote: What is the problem with the sanctus sniper rifle and horrors etc.?
Sure they get another D3 mortal wounds after one successful wound, but this neither seems broken nor unintentional
Perils of the warp has an extra "Perils explosion" of D3 mortals "if the caster is slain"
Because this would obviously be hyper-punishing to units of psykers if those D3 mortal wounds from the perils could cause multiple explosions (thus causing even more havoc within the unit) 90% of units of psykers have some kind of extra-special snowflaketastic Bespoke Rule (tm) that prevents them from chainsploding from perils. Almost all the time, this rule just says "if this unit suffers perils of the warp it only causes an explosion if the last model in the unit dies."
See every grey knight unit, warlock conclaves, zoanthropes, etc etc etc.
HOWEVER.
The units that had no way to peril, either because they have the psyker keyword but don't know any spells (rubrics who are not the aspiring sorceror sergeant) or because they roll only a single die when taking their psychic tests (wyrdvanes and pink horrors and probably a few more I'm not remembering) have no such protection.
So, when you put an ability into the game that FORCES them to peril, well... gak gets GOOFY.
If the Sanctus' rifle, which remember he can shoot twice the turn he arrives for 0CP, successfully wounds a Rubric marine and kills one, it dies. 1 casualty. Then, the unit suffers a Perils of the Warp, 2 casualties average. Then, EACH OF THOSE CASUALTIES causes an ADDITIONAL D3 mortal wounds to the unit and everyone within 6" - probably 2-3 units on average in an army that typically has transports, screens and supporting aura characters?
So, no, I don't think it screams "this is working as intended" when our little sniper character causes 200-300 points of havoc the turn he arrives but only if he happens to be playing against one specific enemy faction that doesn't have magical bespoke rule protection.
5x10 and 1x9 Acolytes in a Twisted Helix Brigade w/ Broodsurge makes them terrific at handling low-medium threats, the Aberrants can tackle larger ones like Knights/etc, Large bike bomb capitalizes off of absurd levels of movement and can screen as a result, and 60 Neophytes with Webbers lets me show up and snag objectives from opponents via lying in wait, etc.
zamerion wrote:very interesting list! I thought something similar
I would change demolition chargues for saws.
Also I have doubts what cult works better in this kind of lists.. against astra, daemons, battle sisters.. that +1 to armour is good, but against marines, necrons,etc etc, +1 Strength It is a big difference.
I rather use the +1S relic iconward + 'might from beyond' psychic power to boost specific units. But +1 save against ap0 and ap-1 weapons really helps against anti-infantry shooting. Think about custodes jetbikes with 12 rapid fire bolters shots. Also first turn 'prepared positions' or regular cover can boost that save to a 3+.
zamerion wrote: my other question is if its better 3 battalions or battalion + brigade.
With the last you win +2cp, you need to spend 250 points in fast and heavy ( sentinels or motorbikes are OK, mortars are really good) but you save a CG too.
Yep, was thinking about that but I need these points for more 'in your face' units. Looking for the cheapest/best way to 'deploy' half my army on the field and then drop as much units in with ambush and get stuck in CC fast as possible. Don't want shooting units. Other factions are better at that.
Cephalobeard wrote:Attached a copy of my current list.
5x10 and 1x9 Acolytes in a Twisted Helix Brigade w/ Broodsurge makes them terrific at handling low-medium threats, the Aberrants can tackle larger ones like Knights/etc, Large bike bomb capitalizes off of absurd levels of movement and can screen as a result, and 60 Neophytes with Webbers lets me show up and snag objectives from opponents via lying in wait, etc.
Feels tight. Lemme know what you think.
I believe when you field a patriarch you need to make it your warlord, right?
Niiai wrote: Most likly you go brood cove. Give the patriarch + 1 leadership or a CC upgrade. Aura on the primus if you have him. And the 1d3 CP on the magus.
Cephalobeard wrote: Not only is it my Warlord, but I'm also using the Broodcoven strat to also allocate my Primus and Magus as Warlords.
But in your list the iconward got a warlord trait..
Thats the problem with the vigilus detachments, if you want the iconward and abominant warlord trait you cannot field a patriarch. Right? or am I missing something?
You sure can. Vigilus has a stratagem which allocates an additional Warlord Trait, similar to that of Broodcoven. By combining them, you can end up with 4 Total WT Across your army.
What Broodcoven strat are people referring to? Is that something from Vigilus? Sorry, I've been out of the game for about six month trying to get some classes out of the way, so I may have missed some things.
Astmeister wrote: What is the problem with the sanctus sniper rifle and horrors etc.?
Sure they get another D3 mortal wounds after one successful wound, but this neither seems broken nor unintentional
You cause a wound which forces a perils, D3 models die since they are single wound, each model that dies as a result of a perils explodes for d6 more mortals since they have the psycher keyword.
Cephalobeard wrote:You sure can. Vigilus has a stratagem which allocates an additional Warlord Trait, similar to that of Broodcoven. By combining them, you can end up with 4 Total WT Across your army.
Ahh now I see, I'am going to use that! More reason for me to get 20 acolytes with 8 rock saws and use the +1 to wound stratagem to take down big targets.
EnTyme wrote:What Broodcoven strat are people referring to? Is that something from Vigilus? Sorry, I've been out of the game for about six month trying to get some classes out of the way, so I may have missed some things.
GSC Broodcoven stratagem gives the primus and magus additional WL-traits apart from your (warlord) patriarch.
EnTyme wrote: What Broodcoven strat are people referring to? Is that something from Vigilus? Sorry, I've been out of the game for about six month trying to get some classes out of the way, so I may have missed some things.
It's in the GSC codex.
It allows you to grant a primus and magus warlord traits if you have all three in your army and a patriarch as a warlord.
AKA "Sorry we didn't think to make the initial sprues separate so we can only sell these guys together in one box...."
The only thing killing me is I want to use a lot of the new characters but they start to really creep up in cost and end up crippling your list if you take too many.
EnTyme wrote: What Broodcoven strat are people referring to? Is that something from Vigilus? Sorry, I've been out of the game for about six month trying to get some classes out of the way, so I may have missed some things.
Oh. Now I feel dumb. I haven't had time to read through all the strats. I mostly looked through the Creed-specific stuff to help me decide what I wanted to build.
EnTyme wrote: Oh. Now I feel dumb. I haven't had time to read through all the strats. I mostly looked through the Creed-specific stuff to help me decide what I wanted to build.
Anyone noticed you can give a shotgun and a grenade launcher to one in 4 of your Jackal bikers. You can also give a shot gun to your quads so a squad of 8 bikes and 2 quads can put out a considerable amount of dakka.
20 shotgun shots
6 Heavy stubber shots(at least depending on your HW choice)
2d6 frag grenade shots
When they get in 6" you pop the grenade strat and you toss
5 demo charges instead of 10 of your shotgun shots.
5x10 and 1x9 Acolytes in a Twisted Helix Brigade w/ Broodsurge makes them terrific at handling low-medium threats, the Aberrants can tackle larger ones like Knights/etc, Large bike bomb capitalizes off of absurd levels of movement and can screen as a result, and 60 Neophytes with Webbers lets me show up and snag objectives from opponents via lying in wait, etc.
Feels tight. Lemme know what you think.
So I understand the webbers on the Neophytes that coming in from underground (love the choice btw), but what about the ones that start on the board? Do you plan on moving them up? I would have thought that if you aren't then maybe something with a bit more range? Or are you just relying on the Sentinels for the ranged fire support?
Red Corsair wrote: The only thing killing me is I want to use a lot of the new characters but they start to really creep up in cost and end up crippling your list if you take too many.
I am finding that as well, and I think a lot of a good GSC list is going to be learning when to stop with the buffs, because you can really buff the ever loving hell out of your stuff (especially melee stuff) but there's absolutely going to be an upper limit to its usefulness. Who cares if your abberrants can remove 100 wounds of vehicles if you can only ever get to charge them into 1-2 tanks and it costs you 1000 points and 10CP to have them do that.
How I'd rank them from most to least auto-include:
1) Nexos. There is zero reason not to have this guy. He is value incarnate with how much cp you'll have and his point cost.
2) Patriarch. With Broodcoven being a thing I think most lists will want to bring a patriarch, mostly because you need to get psychic powers on the board and he's nice compared to magus IMO because he's not in all that bad a situation if he has to just buff himself and leeroy mmjenkins something. Patriarch with Might and Onslaught I think is the best value HQ in GSC. As a sidebar I think you almost always want a familiar on this guy, because turn 2 you will not want to be giving up Onslaught but Might is also a must-have. Can't complain about the familiar's value if he one-shots a knight!
3) Clamavus. More to the nexos side of things where he's so cheap and his value so obvious you might as well throw him in. Protip: you plop him down next to stuff that you just deep struck that you want to charge. That's all he does. That's all he needs to do.
4) Kellermorph. What opposing army doesn't have characters that he can make his value back on? I think the only situation where I wouldn't like him is if I really had my turn 2 AND turn 3 high value deep strikes 100% planned out and there was just no space for him. Still think the relic is a noob trap though - you don't need a gun that makes your Turn 3 assassin overkill his target when you could have a sweet-ass "don't die" necklace on your patriarch.
5) Primus. Hard to argue with. Also provides a bit of flexibility if you're making more of a TAC list, as you could theoretically blip him and pop him up turn 1 near your shooty gunline units to give them wound rerolls vs a priority target - though that does waste most of what else he'd be accomplishing as a character so I think mostly his use is as a melee buffer.
6) Magus. He can't really Onslaught, so I think my preferred loadout for Maggie would be Mind Control/Mass Hypnosis with the latter being your normal spell and the former being an opportunistic situational high-value cast. Mass hyp is really important to have on the field to keep our high value melee guys from getting shredded but you don't want to waste a slot from a patriarch on it.
7) Iconward. Despite the usual inclination to go "cheapest HQ, must be best!" I think our other HQs bring so much value that finding a space for an iconward is a challenge. What do you want to give up - the Primus and with him the ability to use Broodcoven? One of our psychic power casts? in some oddball gunline lists where you actually have a screen I think his banner o' not dying might be handy, but I think all in all the best way to not get shot is either be in a truck or be actively ripping the face off the guy who wanted to shoot you.
8) abominable snowmonster. This guy now has one use: getting the most out of anointed throng. If you're going to be using a perfect ambush on your aberrants honestly I think you can skip him. But he is nice for using the 1CP strat and also bringing the warlord trait from Anointed throng.
9) Sanctus. Assuming you aren't tailoring vs Thousand Sons and being a real tool about it. Here's my main problem with him: His best ability requires you to use A Perfect Ambush on his scrawny ass instead of...I don't know, anything else. Aberrants. Acolytes. Purestrains. A Kellermorph. That strat is happening turn 2 and turn 3 almost every game in almost every list. The best situation for him would be I'm guessing in a shooty GSC list, where you don't have super vital charge units that MUST use the strat, and you also have an alphus on the field so you can stack their fire and down a character on the turn he shows up and double-taps.
10) Alphus. I think her big downfall is being super useful to the bad half of the GSC roster: the gunsy bits. Wow, I can make my cult leman russes! Or I can pay 10 points more and just take them as tank commanders in a supreme command detachment. The Value!
11) Biophagus. Strength is usually going to be meaningless on aberrants. Toughness is probably going to be meaningless. Attacks are good, but ultimately I think in most games your aberrants are going to blow straight through whatever they touch regardless and you'll end up wishing you brought less points of things to buff them into the overkill zone. Also, has a chance to go Dr. Zoidberg on one of your super important lumpy lads - I'd rather not take all the chances and instead just pay 1cp to give his best buff to them from the Annointed Throng stratagem.
12) Locus. (assuming heroic intervention nonsense gets FAQed). The locus doesn't really do anything that anyone else doesn't already do. Why do I need a moderately useful close combat character when I could have a moderately useful close combat character with psychic powers, or with an aura, or with any other benefit we already have on all our close combat characters?
in most meta (see: Relying heavily on deep striking melee) lists, I think your main lineup is going to be Patriarch, Primus, Nexos, Clammy, Magus, Keller, and maybe Abominant, in the Anointed Throng formation.
Webbers are just cheap, yeah. Most of my Neophytes will likely be fluctuating between reserves and returning to the shadows to pop up and snag objectives via lying in wait, etc.
Realistically if I had more flex points I'd be giving Stubbers to the back most squads, etc.
Red Corsair wrote: The only thing killing me is I want to use a lot of the new characters but they start to really creep up in cost and end up crippling your list if you take too many.
9) Sanctus. Assuming you aren't tailoring vs Thousand Sons and being a real tool about it. Here's my main problem with him: His best ability requires you to use A Perfect Ambush on his scrawny ass instead of...I don't know, anything else. Aberrants. Acolytes. Purestrains. A Kellermorph. That strat is happening turn 2 and turn 3 almost every game in almost every list. The best situation for him would be I'm guessing in a shooty GSC list, where you don't have super vital charge units that MUST use the strat, and you also have an alphus on the field so you can stack their fire and down a character on the turn he shows up and double-taps.
12) Locus. (assuming heroic intervention nonsense gets FAQed). The locus doesn't really do anything that anyone else doesn't already do. Why do I need a moderately useful close combat character when I could have a moderately useful close combat character with psychic powers, or with an aura, or with any other benefit we already have on all our close combat characters?
in most meta (see: Relying heavily on deep striking melee) lists, I think your main lineup is going to be Patriarch, Primus, Nexos, Clammy, Magus, Keller, and maybe Abominant, in the Anointed Throng formation.
In response to your thoughts on the Sanctus and the Locus, I read and reread the strat for dbl shoot on reveal and guess what..... you can do it turn one. So a Sanctus can be bliped and in your deployment zone (preferably in a good firing position) and when placed on the board as a unit with cult ambush he can use the strat. None of our other units can effectively use the strat 1st turn so boom!! you now can use it with no opportunity cost to blast someone first turn. I plan to take 2 in most lists.
For the Locus he is only 40 pts. DS him with your more important characters and he not only can take wounds for them (Making that WL Patriarch killing machine keep trucking) but he is a 5+inv(4+ in bladed claw) 4 att always striking first S4 4 W 2+ hitting -3 rend little monster that it is no great loss if he dies but definitely can do some damage on his way out. I plan to take 2 in most lists.
Cephalobeard wrote: Webbers are just cheap, yeah. Most of my Neophytes will likely be fluctuating between reserves and returning to the shadows to pop up and snag objectives via lying in wait, etc.
Realistically if I had more flex points I'd be giving Stubbers to the back most squads, etc.
Okay yeah stubbers was what I was thinking too for the squads being deployed!
Honestly I keep forgetting about Return to the Shadows lol.
the_scotsman wrote: 10) Alphus. I think her big downfall is being super useful to the bad half of the GSC roster: the gunsy bits. Wow, I can make my cult leman russes! Or I can pay 10 points more and just take them as tank commanders in a supreme command detachment. The Value!
Well I think the Alphus fits perfectly into the Battalion (or brigade) that houses your objective holding Neophytes. Should be really easy to split your shooty and stabby guys into separate detachments at anything over 1000 points.
Alphus + Neophytes + Rusted Claw I think is a good combination.
Definitely not the first HQ I'm reaching for, but definitely has its uses!
Have been playing with 60+ Neophytes since index release. Now with the codex they became a lot better!
I'm a big fan of the aesthetics of the Seismic Cannon so I have two squads with two Cannons each build. They didn't see much action in index times cause the gun was just... bad. Tried them for fun again against Orks (Evil Sunz) yesterday. They actually do stuff now! I just plopped my two squads on objectives in my deployment zone and was surprised that they actually managed to make their points back. I am considering moving them into the underground. So Turn 2 2x10 Neos w/ 2x SCs and 2x GLs (or Webbers for style points) pop up with a Gunslinger 9" away from the enemy screen. They don't even need a stratagem to move closer since their Autoguns etc. is quite comfortable at 9" away and now they don't even count as having moved when dropping in! And that's only 80 points per squad. Even if the enemy doesn't have a lot of infantry for them to target. Who cares? They can still be useful for board control. Plop 'em on an objective or screen your own lines with them.
I also quite like a squad of 10 with 2x Stubbers, 2x GLs. Only 60 points. I use them as a screen for my Russes or characters and to camp on objectives in my deployment zone.
Right now I run:
2x10 Neos w/ 2 Seismic Cannons, 2 GLs
2x10 Neos w/ 2 Lasers, 2 GLs (in Goliaths)
2x10 Neos w/ 2 Stubbers, 2 GLs
This is probably neither competitive nor the optimal loadout for them. But then again I don't max out my lists. I play mono Rusted Claw (Battalion + Brigade). Would be more competative by changing one of those into 4 armed emperor to get better charge chances off. But that seems odd to me that two Cults that thrive on different planets would suddenly be on the same battlefield. No doubt they would probably cooperate (as did Rusted Claw and Bladed Cog in the fluff) but eh, I am a fluff nazi and I painted mine in the RC colors.
What's your oppinions on the Rockgrinder? 120 points (you are taking the Incinerator, right?!) seems a bit much to me since you probably have to run at the very least two of them. Otherwise that lone Rockgrinder will never ever make it into combat.
Well annoying thing for me that I have one shotgun armed neophytes with flamers but now those are kinda poor(er) when they dropped points on grenade launcher and webber gun.
I mean I could get 2 grenade launchers for price of one flamer.
Twisted Helix Battalion
Patriarch Real WL +1S/A, Relic +1A/T/W
Magus
Iconward Relic: Icon +1S in 6"
Purestrain genestealers (14)
2x Neophytes (20) each 2xGL, 18xAutogun
Neophytes (11) all Autoguns
After spending for my relics and starting strat I have 14+d3 CP I have 24 Units (allowing max 12 underground+3 with strat) and 12 Blips +3 with strat.
I plan to Demo charge in Waves 1st turn Bikes (if possible), 2nd turn 1st 15 man Acolyte unit using 3" deploy strat, 3rd turn 2nd 15 man Acolyte unit (plan to use extra explosives to toss 5 demos each time)
1st turn free shot with strat from Sanctus sniper rifle.
I will aim to go first if I can. I think ceding 1st turn is a trap for GSC as I have seen so many battle reports where they try to be tricksy and they just end up taking it in the teeth for 2 full turns before they get to use their whole army.
Oh and I chose the bladed cog for my Acolyte bombs as it gives them all a 6+ Inv allowing them to possibly survive a little longer, Helix obvously for the Str buffs on the paterarch, and 4 armed for my 4 small acolytes to get long bomb assaults and for the Vect strat as well as the extra CP.
So I have quite a few autogun neophytes.. But I really like the aesthetics of the shotguns, are they any good and how would you play them? They want to be close but not caught in combat.. Also what specials to take? Webbers?
OEMoose wrote: Any possibility that Brood Coven will be FAQed to require all 3 be in the same detachment? Or at least all have to have the same cult creed?
From a fluff standpoint that would make sense, and it might be too strong as is.
I hope not I think it's kinda cool having a WL for 3 separate factions each with a WL trait.
I think it will absolutely happen. Makes no sense from a background perspective to have 3 different cult creed characters coming from the same brood coven.
My advice to folks is always to play by the conservative interpretation of the rules so you won't get used to something that a FAQ will easily remove.
Keramory wrote:So how is everyone buffing their abominant into something absolutely stupid?
Was able to dish out 20 wounds against a t8 with just Twisted Helix, Might from Beyond and the Hammer relic.
Do you plan on pumping him full of Strength and Attacks? 3++ Save? -2 to damage at 1 min? Mixture of this?
Personally I think it's smarter to try and level up his defense, his strength is already stupid. Not sure though.
How did he manage that much damage? You just rolled lucky with D6 damage? I just don't like him as much anymore, you HAVE to take the Vigilus det in order to then take the relic warhammer so he doesn't hit on 4+. With only 3 attacks, he still has to get through saves, granted he can get extra hits on 6s. I think my favorite thing about him is the psychic debuff aura. I'm going to use my CPs to get the Aberrants into CC, so he'll be left out in the open, unless he makes a difficult charge. I love the model so I still want to take him, I just don't want to have to put so many buffs into a 120pt character ...
Cephalobeard wrote:Dropped him entirely for a Patriarch.
More damage, on average, with less need to buff him
Ugh, the Patriarch is good it is just frustrating he has to be the WL, he's always going to give up WL Kill.
Jamstrap wrote:So I have quite a few autogun neophytes.. But I really like the aesthetics of the shotguns, are they any good and how would you play them? They want to be close but not caught in combat.. Also what specials to take? Webbers?
I am planning on using a 20 man squad with the strat to pop up 3" out and just unleash S4 shots into enemy screens. If they survive, cool, if not, I won't be too upset about it, honestly, they can return to shadows or move onto OBJs, eat overwatch next turn, etc. Plus, they can keep the enemy pinned in somewhere unless they can fly. I love the webbers now, actually. Though I probably won't put them in a suicide squad like that. I kind of like the idea of webbers riding in a 10 man unit in a Goliath Truck.
I started GSC as a way to get a non-Imperium army on the cheap since I have like 5k+ points of Guard. So I think I'm going to have a guard BN of 2 Tempestor Primes and then a bunch of Scions with plasma. I'm going with Scions for my ranged AT here because, while I LOVE Russes, I won't be running any other vehicles so 3 tanks in this climate should just get rocked 1st turn without target saturation. Then I cult ambush 20 man squads of basic BBs into rapid fire range and FRFSRF to clear chaff and pave the way for the real threats. Then I'll probably use mortar squads and "long range" equipped neos to hold my backfield OBJs. Acolyte squads, GSC characters, and Aberrants then go in and do their thing to tough enemy units. My primary opponent does play Tau though, so the ability to cult ambush my infantry into his face is going to help obliterate all of his damn Fire Warriors. My Catachans can never survive long enough to ever get to OBJs, let alone his castle.
The ability to absolutely just bog down the board is going to be so good. I don't play ITC, so keep that in mind.
Ugh, the Patriarch is good it is just frustrating he has to be the WL, he's always going to give up WL Kill.
I played my first game with 2 Patriarchs and none of them died. My warlord was with my 10 aberrants who soaked an ungodly amount of fire and an acolyte squad/clavacus/iconward. The other one I dropped with 2 acolyte squads on a flank with no melee threat. If you make sure he is surrounded well he's not that easy to kill.
Red Corsair wrote: I think it will absolutely happen. Makes no sense from a background perspective to have 3 different cult creed characters coming from the same brood coven.
My advice to folks is always to play by the conservative interpretation of the rules so you won't get used to something that a FAQ will easily remove.
After the FAQ in a week however, go nuts.
Hey Corsair, can I get your opinion on what else you think might go down?
Twisted Helix Battalion
Patriarch Real WL +1S/A, Relic +1A/T/W
Magus
Iconward Relic: Icon +1S in 6"
Purestrain genestealers (14)
2x Neophytes (20) each 2xGL, 18xAutogun
Neophytes (11) all Autoguns
I'am sorry to say, but I think your armylist is a great example of 'character overdose' (red) and not enough damage output. One genestealer unit, a few small units of acolytes and one bike unit, cannot deal with knights, custodes bikes, heavy astra militarum shooting, Orks green tide with loota bomb.
Astra Militarum can move infantry forward (move move move..) and push back your ambush zone and outshoot you from that point on. Same goes for teleporting ork boyz.
In my opinion GSC need to do the following;
1: Get as much units in ambush and the rest need to be in cover / out of sight to deny as much first turn shooting. Rusted claw + cover / prepared positions makes them 3+ save + icon 6+ feel no pain.
2: I believe you can summon a unit (stratagem) first turn so you could remove the first enemy rank with a nice close combat unit (+d6 perfect ambush) or deploy outside 3 inch (prepared positions) and bring 20 acolyte handflamers (first blood!). For this reason I would always reserve reinforcement points.
3: second turn you need to decide if you only bring in a single / few units to remove the next layer or if its possible to break thru and get to the juicy enemy units with full force. Keep your eye on the price -> objectives, and be ready to sacrifice (almost) everything to keep the enemy in the ropes and walk away with the objective.
Must haves:
- reinforcement points that gives you different summoning options. You need the models for that though.
- At least one 'cult of the 4..' detachment because you need the +d3 command point WL trait and the option to block other stratagems.
- I would always bring one boosted tough close combat hammer to take care of the other enemies 'hammers'. So that would an abberant unit or 20 acolytes with 8 rock saws, or something.
- Personally I would stay away from shooting apart from cheap handflamers or cheap demolition charges. I got lot's of acolytes so that's easy for me to say.
- Don't go overboard on the (elite)characters.
- I prefer the 'deliverance broodsurge' detachment (vigilus) because it gives reroll charge (WL trait), combining this with a clamavus (+1 charge) and maybe even 'cult of the 4..' (+1 charge) and those acolytes are almost always getting into the fight. Primus + 8 rock saws + acolyte icon + deliverance broodsurge stratagem + extra S iconward or/and might from beyond: means 2+ to hit + reroll 1, and then 2+ to wound against toughness 8 (maybe even reroll 1 with primus). That messes up a knight paintjob for sure.
But thats easy for me to say..I got lots of acolytes. bought a few boxes and made a mold for the legs and torsos and bought a few arm bits. No way in hell I pay that much money for 5 models.
Quick question. If a unit is embarked in a Goliath Truck, and the truck is within 6" of a Jackal Alphus, would they still benefit from the Jackal Alphus Priority Target Sighted Ability?
Or is this one of those weird things where technically they are not on the table?
The reason I am asking is am trying to see if the Cult can "out Guard the Guard" and being able to run multiple trucks as gunboats is going to be a core of my list.
That list has 148 models... how many more do I need?
I do like the idea of summoning but sheesh the list is already so cp hungry. I guess I can drop an acolyte unit maby switch my 2nd Paterarch for a second iconward and more troops so I can have the pts for summoning.
FatBoyNoSlim wrote: Quick question. If a unit is embarked in a Goliath Truck, and the truck is within 6" of a Jackal Alphus, would they still benefit from the Jackal Alphus Priority Target Sighted Ability?
Or is this one of those weird things where technically they are not on the table?
The reason I am asking is am trying to see if the Cult can "out Guard the Guard" and being able to run multiple trucks as gunboats is going to be a core of my list.
Nope, it's one of those things where "modifiers that affect the transport affect the occupants".
Any - and + to hit modifiers that apply to the transport, do apply to the models inside, so if the goliath gets it, the passengers get it.
It might seem weird, but think about it this way: Otherwise, if the transport the models were firing out of was outside of 12" from a Raven Guard unit, the unit being transported would not get -1 to hit. So they've created an exception to the usual "off the battlefield" rule that allows specifically for modifiers, plusses and minuses.
FatBoyNoSlim wrote: Quick question. If a unit is embarked in a Goliath Truck, and the truck is within 6" of a Jackal Alphus, would they still benefit from the Jackal Alphus Priority Target Sighted Ability?
Or is this one of those weird things where technically they are not on the table?
The reason I am asking is am trying to see if the Cult can "out Guard the Guard" and being able to run multiple trucks as gunboats is going to be a core of my list.
Nope, it's one of those things where "modifiers that affect the transport affect the occupants".
Any - and + to hit modifiers that apply to the transport, do apply to the models inside, so if the goliath gets it, the passengers get it.
It might seem weird, but think about it this way: Otherwise, if the transport the models were firing out of was outside of 12" from a Raven Guard unit, the unit being transported would not get -1 to hit. So they've created an exception to the usual "off the battlefield" rule that allows specifically for modifiers, plusses and minuses.
Ah thank you! Could you tell where that is? Is it a rule book or FAQ?
I only ask as I reckon someone I play against is going to argue that they don't benefit.
FatBoyNoSlim wrote: Quick question. If a unit is embarked in a Goliath Truck, and the truck is within 6" of a Jackal Alphus, would they still benefit from the Jackal Alphus Priority Target Sighted Ability?
Or is this one of those weird things where technically they are not on the table?
The reason I am asking is am trying to see if the Cult can "out Guard the Guard" and being able to run multiple trucks as gunboats is going to be a core of my list.
Nope, it's one of those things where "modifiers that affect the transport affect the occupants".
Any - and + to hit modifiers that apply to the transport, do apply to the models inside, so if the goliath gets it, the passengers get it.
It might seem weird, but think about it this way: Otherwise, if the transport the models were firing out of was outside of 12" from a Raven Guard unit, the unit being transported would not get -1 to hit. So they've created an exception to the usual "off the battlefield" rule that allows specifically for modifiers, plusses and minuses.
Ah thank you! Could you tell where that is? Is it a rule book or FAQ?
I only ask as I reckon someone I play against is going to argue that they don't benefit.
Right on the rule for Open-Topped: "When they do so, any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers, for example the passengers cannot shoot if this model has Fallen Back in the same turn, cannot shoot (except with pistols) if this model is within 1" of an enemy unit, and so on."
The base rulebook defines what a modifier is, and you can pretty much understand from the examples what is considered a "restriction" - anything that prevents you from shooting a certain weapon if you do something during your turn, like advance, fall back, etc.
The only time the rule "feels" weird is when it interacts with auras: because most auras are re-rolls, not modifiers, most auras don't affect the passengers, just the vehicle. and unless the aura affects the vehicle (like, lets say the aura is only for Infantry) then it would not affect the passengers inside because they're just "piggybacking" off what happens to the vehicle.
Where the rule feels most intuitive is when you're applying negative modifiers, like enemy units that are -1 to hit, or moving and shooting heavy weapons out of the inside.
FatBoyNoSlim wrote: Quick question. If a unit is embarked in a Goliath Truck, and the truck is within 6" of a Jackal Alphus, would they still benefit from the Jackal Alphus Priority Target Sighted Ability?
Or is this one of those weird things where technically they are not on the table?
The reason I am asking is am trying to see if the Cult can "out Guard the Guard" and being able to run multiple trucks as gunboats is going to be a core of my list.
Nope, it's one of those things where "modifiers that affect the transport affect the occupants".
Any - and + to hit modifiers that apply to the transport, do apply to the models inside, so if the goliath gets it, the passengers get it.
It might seem weird, but think about it this way: Otherwise, if the transport the models were firing out of was outside of 12" from a Raven Guard unit, the unit being transported would not get -1 to hit. So they've created an exception to the usual "off the battlefield" rule that allows specifically for modifiers, plusses and minuses.
Ah thank you! Could you tell where that is? Is it a rule book or FAQ?
I only ask as I reckon someone I play against is going to argue that they don't benefit.
Right on the rule for Open-Topped: "When they do so, any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers, for example the passengers cannot shoot if this model has Fallen Back in the same turn, cannot shoot (except with pistols) if this model is within 1" of an enemy unit, and so on."
The base rulebook defines what a modifier is, and you can pretty much understand from the examples what is considered a "restriction" - anything that prevents you from shooting a certain weapon if you do something during your turn, like advance, fall back, etc.
The only time the rule "feels" weird is when it interacts with auras: because most auras are re-rolls, not modifiers, most auras don't affect the passengers, just the vehicle. and unless the aura affects the vehicle (like, lets say the aura is only for Infantry) then it would not affect the passengers inside because they're just "piggybacking" off what happens to the vehicle.
Where the rule feels most intuitive is when you're applying negative modifiers, like enemy units that are -1 to hit, or moving and shooting heavy weapons out of the inside.
I took a look in the FAQ and I am sad because I dont think it works in our favour. Page 6 of the main rulebook FAQ :(
Q: If a transport with the Open-topped ability (e.g. a Trukk) is
within range of an aura ability, are units that are embarked upon
that transport affected by that ability?
A: No.
Red Corsair wrote: I think it will absolutely happen. Makes no sense from a background perspective to have 3 different cult creed characters coming from the same brood coven.
My advice to folks is always to play by the conservative interpretation of the rules so you won't get used to something that a FAQ will easily remove.
After the FAQ in a week however, go nuts.
Hey Corsair, can I get your opinion on what else you think might go down?
TheScotsman shared a pretty solid list of the things that I wouldn't be surprised by if/when they get a FAQ. I say if/when because the Big FAQ 2 will be out this spring and anything they don't catch with the post release FAQ is fair game then. In this first FAQ I expect them to fix publishing errors. Things like the Broodbrothers orders, the locus heroic intervention and the discrepancy in mining lasers (D3 damage in the armory but D6 damage on the wolf quad data slate).
While a lot of the other stuff is fun/powerful and may change which can be frustrating, I called out Brood Coven because it alters how you build your detachment and army, since some folks are mixing creeds and using WLT. I don't think it is broken or particularly powerful, but it definitely does not fit the fluff and it can alter your entire lists and purchases or armies color schemes.
FatBoyNoSlim wrote: Quick question. If a unit is embarked in a Goliath Truck, and the truck is within 6" of a Jackal Alphus, would they still benefit from the Jackal Alphus Priority Target Sighted Ability?
Or is this one of those weird things where technically they are not on the table?
The reason I am asking is am trying to see if the Cult can "out Guard the Guard" and being able to run multiple trucks as gunboats is going to be a core of my list.
Nope, it's one of those things where "modifiers that affect the transport affect the occupants".
Any - and + to hit modifiers that apply to the transport, do apply to the models inside, so if the goliath gets it, the passengers get it.
It might seem weird, but think about it this way: Otherwise, if the transport the models were firing out of was outside of 12" from a Raven Guard unit, the unit being transported would not get -1 to hit. So they've created an exception to the usual "off the battlefield" rule that allows specifically for modifiers, plusses and minuses.
Ah thank you! Could you tell where that is? Is it a rule book or FAQ?
I only ask as I reckon someone I play against is going to argue that they don't benefit.
Right on the rule for Open-Topped: "When they do so, any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers, for example the passengers cannot shoot if this model has Fallen Back in the same turn, cannot shoot (except with pistols) if this model is within 1" of an enemy unit, and so on."
The base rulebook defines what a modifier is, and you can pretty much understand from the examples what is considered a "restriction" - anything that prevents you from shooting a certain weapon if you do something during your turn, like advance, fall back, etc.
The only time the rule "feels" weird is when it interacts with auras: because most auras are re-rolls, not modifiers, most auras don't affect the passengers, just the vehicle. and unless the aura affects the vehicle (like, lets say the aura is only for Infantry) then it would not affect the passengers inside because they're just "piggybacking" off what happens to the vehicle.
Where the rule feels most intuitive is when you're applying negative modifiers, like enemy units that are -1 to hit, or moving and shooting heavy weapons out of the inside.
I took a look in the FAQ and I am sad because I dont think it works in our favour. Page 6 of the main rulebook FAQ :(
Q: If a transport with the Open-topped ability (e.g. a Trukk) is
within range of an aura ability, are units that are embarked upon
that transport affected by that ability?
A: No.
Aura abilities by default do not (such as rerolls) but a "modifier" with a range is pretty strictly defined in the rulebook.
You follow an identical sequence in the two following examples:
Model inside a goliath targets a Raven Guard unit.
Measure range from the hull of the truck: 16"
Modifier applies to the truck: -1 to hit.
Therefore, modifier applies to the unit being transported.
Model inside a goliath targets a model selected by the Alphus' Priority Target.
Measure range from the hull of the truck: 6" to the alphus.
Modifier applies to the truck: +1 to hit.
Therefore modifier applies to the unit being transported.
If it didn't work this way, there are a lot of abilities in the game that would not function as written.
Twisted Helix Battalion
Patriarch Real WL +1S/A, Relic +1A/T/W
Magus
Iconward Relic: Icon +1S in 6"
Purestrain genestealers (14)
2x Neophytes (20) each 2xGL, 18xAutogun
Neophytes (11) all Autoguns
I'am sorry to say, but I think your armylist is a great example of 'character overdose' (red) and not enough damage output. One genestealer unit, a few small units of acolytes and one bike unit, cannot deal with knights, custodes bikes, heavy astra militarum shooting, Orks green tide with loota bomb.
Astra Militarum can move infantry forward (move move move..) and push back your ambush zone and outshoot you from that point on. Same goes for teleporting ork boyz.
In my opinion GSC need to do the following;
1: Get as much units in ambush and the rest need to be in cover / out of sight to deny as much first turn shooting. Rusted claw + cover / prepared positions makes them 3+ save + icon 6+ feel no pain.
2: I believe you can summon a unit (stratagem) first turn so you could remove the first enemy rank with a nice close combat unit (+d6 perfect ambush) or deploy outside 3 inch (prepared positions) and bring 20 acolyte handflamers (first blood!). For this reason I would always reserve reinforcement points.
3: second turn you need to decide if you only bring in a single / few units to remove the next layer or if its possible to break thru and get to the juicy enemy units with full force. Keep your eye on the price -> objectives, and be ready to sacrifice (almost) everything to keep the enemy in the ropes and walk away with the objective.
Must haves:
- reinforcement points that gives you different summoning options. You need the models for that though.
- At least one 'cult of the 4..' detachment because you need the +d3 command point WL trait and the option to block other stratagems.
- I would always bring one boosted tough close combat hammer to take care of the other enemies 'hammers'. So that would an abberant unit or 20 acolytes with 8 rock saws, or something.
- Personally I would stay away from shooting apart from cheap handflamers or cheap demolition charges. I got lot's of acolytes so that's easy for me to say.
- Don't go overboard on the (elite)characters.
- I prefer the 'deliverance broodsurge' detachment (vigilus) because it gives reroll charge (WL trait), combining this with a clamavus (+1 charge) and maybe even 'cult of the 4..' (+1 charge) and those acolytes are almost always getting into the fight. Primus + 8 rock saws + acolyte icon + deliverance broodsurge stratagem + extra S iconward or/and might from beyond: means 2+ to hit + reroll 1, and then 2+ to wound against toughness 8 (maybe even reroll 1 with primus). That messes up a knight paintjob for sure.
But thats easy for me to say..I got lots of acolytes. bought a few boxes and made a mold for the legs and torsos and bought a few arm bits. No way in hell I pay that much money for 5 models.
Hey shogun, I was waiting for you to reappear from the shadows. Seemed you were sitting out until the release, can't blame you with what they did to the army post 7th release. I fondly remember the debate you had last edition over battling Magnus and friends at the end of 7th. Those pictures were great. I like your analysis, and look forward to discussing more ideas with you I have a lot of acolytes but I don't think I have nearly as many as you do What do you think of the creeds? This has been the thing I am waffling most on. 4AE seems like the obvious starting point, but then I end up looking at the others and end up wanting Pauper princes for example really fixes things like characters and abberants and saves points on icons and possibly primuses but then Rusted claw seems invaluable because of how much more durable it boosts a fragile army. Against HB equivalents it's like having a 3+ base save. I painted my stuff one color so I am not too keen on mixing creeds unless I can do it by unit type (neos and abbs from one creed, acolytes from another etc.) Overall I am happy with the release, I feel like I can play for a long time and still fins new ways to play, I am lucky enough to play this army and DE, two of the best factions for creativity IMHO.
Is a Primus or an Abominant a better babysitter for a deep-strike Aberrant bomb? The Abominant has access to the Throng WL trait, which is great, but is more expensive, and I think the Primus might benefit the Aberrants more with the re-rolls than the extra attacks on 6's. Thoughts?
rollawaythestone wrote: Is a Primus or an Abominant a better babysitter for a deep-strike Aberrant bomb? The Abominant has access to the Throng WL trait, which is great, but is more expensive, and I think the Primus might benefit the Aberrants more with the re-rolls than the extra attacks on 6's. Thoughts?
You might be right. A Primus could even be better for Aberrants. But the reroll buff is actually just against one unit, so it is definitely more limited than the exploding 6. Also the Abominant can survive longer, which is also a good point for him as a frontline brawler.
I agree about the Abominant being a better brawler, but re-roll 1s to hit and 1s to wound is tasty for some Aberrants to come in with the express purpose of killing a single high-value target.
I prefer the primus. They both buff the expected hit number by the same degree (a normal abberant unit expects four hits for every six attacks. Near primus, expected value of 5 hits. Near abominant, expected value of five hits) The abominant is beefier and the primus is cheaper, but the big thing to me is that the Primus buffs all units and the abominant buffs limited ones. The bonus to Acolytes makes the primus a champion to me.
What does everyone think of the ambull? Provided it is a slotless elite or heavy choice and reasonable choice, would it be worth it to put in? I was thinking turn 1 start somewhere out of LoS than drop underground. Turn two pop up with everything else deep striking. It looks like a good distraction carnifex.
it gets designed with 40k rules as a little bonus, it becomes the best in slot elite choice for a bunch of factions in tournament play, it gets a bunch of people to buy it for the rules, then it gets FAQed to not be allowed in matched play after it becomes the tournament meta for a brief moment.
Then everyone is sad and has an expensive pair of plastic bug monsters.
Cult of the four-armed emperor, battalion detachment
Jackal alphus
Magus
3x10 brood brothers - mortars
Tyranid supreme command detachment, Kraken
3xflyrant - monstrous rending claws, two devourers
So plan is 60 guard with mortars hide and hold objectives and help clear chaff, hive tyrants can be a big distraction and again clear as much out of the way for the the 20 aberrant to come down. With 're rolls to hit and the stratagem to 're roll 1 to wound I think the aberants can cause havoc turn 2 onwards especially if the biophagus gets +1attack buff off.
Hey shogun, I was waiting for you to reappear from the shadows. Seemed you were sitting out until the release, can't blame you with what they did to the army post 7th release. I fondly remember the debate you had last edition over battling Magnus and friends at the end of 7th. Those pictures were great.
Ah Red, Yea it's been a while since I been active on dakkadakka. Really like the GSC codex and working on a new tournament army.
I like your analysis, and look forward to discussing more ideas with you I have a lot of acolytes but I don't think I have nearly as many as you do What do you think of the creeds? This has been the thing I am waffling most on. 4AE seems like the obvious starting point, but then I end up looking at the others and end up wanting Pauper princes for example really fixes things like characters and abberants and saves points on icons and possibly primuses but then Rusted claw seems invaluable because of how much more durable it boosts a fragile army. Against HB equivalents it's like having a 3+ base save. I painted my stuff one color so I am not too keen on mixing creeds unless I can do it by unit type (neos and abbs from one creed, acolytes from another etc.) Overall I am happy with the release, I feel like I can play for a long time and still fins new ways to play, I am lucky enough to play this army and DE, two of the best factions for creativity IMHO.
At my last tournament (not GSCBTW) I came to the following conclusion: Most times it didn't matter what I killed, the outcome would be the same. It was all about the mission and the objectives and how the mealstrom objectives unfold.
First turn: both players got a firm grip on their own objectives,
Second turn: things die (especially when you get the second turn) but not possible to gain the upper hand regarding objectives. Enemy player get's scoring objective 1, defend objective 1, and scoring objective 3, and these objectives are all on his side. Oh BTW, I also got defend objective 1 and defend objectve 2...
Third turn: I killed a lot of stuff and now I need to move in and go for the complete kill/objectives,
Fourth turn: only 20 minutes left so we decide to play it out 10 minutes each player, because we agree that only three turns would be pitiful...
I want to give it a shot with GSC now because with this army its possible to play defensive first turn and almost completely deny enemy return shooting. You simply start playing at the second turn and got the option to come in as a big 'deal with this!' -blob or simply put in wave after wave to peal of the enemy units layer by layer. You also got the option to keep taking objectives while dying in the process and still walk away with victory. I liked that strategy in the old edition /first GSC codex and I want to do this again. But at a tournament you need to get you priorities in order because GSC is very time consuming and difficult to keep track, especially for you opponent.
Regarding the creeds: If you stick with one creed than I think you can't go wrong with rusted claw because that +1 save helps all the time, and is not situational. Only useless against ap2+ weapons but I don't mind if the shoot at 7 point infantry with that. Even with 4AE you might not get in close combat or maybe you do and kill an enemy unit, but either way at some point the enemy is going to shoot at your models. If GSC didn't got the 'perfect ambush stratagem' I might go for 4AE but then I would bring lots of neophytes to simply lock the enemy units down and get as many units to make sure a few charges work. I have been thinking about small detachments with very specific creed units, like a boosted helix patriarch or something.
But first I'am going to try this army and keep you posted.
Big nasty thing that regenerates wounds. I was just thinking since we have all these deep strikers and CC units it would fit in easily and be a nice distraction from say a Primarch or something. It won't be able to take on a knight but it should be able to mess up a light tank pretty well and take down a character easily.
Thx for the advice about my list. I am definitely gonna tweak my list a bit and save about 200 pts for summoning. I didn't realize we could effectively 1st turn DS doing this. I do think character spam will work in many situations though. Yes it gives up some easy kill points sometimes but some of these characters can make back 2 or even 3 times their points and if that happens just a few times you can get a decisive advantage.
Well I decided to go for the shooty option and decided to dedicate for Hivecult.
Primus, Magus, Iconward for HQ, Kelermorp for heroic shooting and atleast 3 x 20 Acolytes with autoguns, grenade launchers and mining lasers. Tanks and big guns for the absolute havoc!
Niiai wrote: Do summoned units ghet keywords? Four armed summons have +1 to charge?
They come from the same cult as the summoning model.
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rollawaythestone wrote: I agree about the Abominant being a better brawler, but re-roll 1s to hit and 1s to wound is tasty for some Aberrants to come in with the express purpose of killing a single high-value target.
Primus doesn't provide rerolls to hit, he adds +1 to hit for all friendly cult units within 6". He also picks a unit when he is deployed and all units within 6" reroll failed wound rolls of 1.
I am starting to become more and more convinced that pauper princes will do the anointed throng best. You don't need a primus then and you actually get better odds at exploding hits. It also makes the abomanant much better. I don't think twisted helix is as good since I don't need to swing 3 times generally. Maybe helix would work better if you took two bricks of abberants since you would have a strat for each unit, but thats a crazy CP commitment and a lot of reinforcements in reserve. It's kind of a win big or lose big build.
@Shogan, I think I like Rusted claw the most, but I play mostly in tournys these days and I know with death watch being popular in the meta auspex scan is going to be a major problem without 4AE cancel power. Unfortunately I will probably need to take at least one detachment from them. Splitting characters is my issue, you don't want to lose out on auras, I think the patriarch or abomanant would be best, maybe from a vanguard and just run anointed throng, but then I lose out on 4+ save ignoring rend abbs lol. Oh well, can't have it all.
I really want to use the jackals, building two boxes as we chat lol.
Timeshadow wrote:That list has 148 models... how many more do I need?
I do like the idea of summoning but sheesh the list is already so cp hungry. I guess I can drop an acolyte unit maby switch my 2nd Paterarch for a second iconward and more troops so I can have the pts for summoning.
Yes, you got lots of models but not a lot of damage output, thats not the same. You could boost the genestealers but after the die you can only boost 20 neophytes or 5 acolytes. Bikers are also not really tough. But hey, I also need to try this stuff so no universal truths (yet)..
Timeshadow wrote:Shogun
Thx for the advice about my list. I am definitely gonna tweak my list a bit and save about 200 pts for summoning. I didn't realize we could effectively 1st turn DS doing this. I do think character spam will work in many situations though. Yes it gives up some easy kill points sometimes but some of these characters can make back 2 or even 3 times their points and if that happens just a few times you can get a decisive advantage.
I might be wrong, but I see no rules that prevent you from summoning first turn, right? I do agree that I also don't want to spend 2 CP on a unit that could already be put in ambush second turn. But the different options that summoning brings in combination with first turn harassment makes me want to have this option.
Red Corsair wrote:
@Shogan, I think I like Rusted claw the most, but I play mostly in tournys these days and I know with death watch being popular in the meta auspex scan is going to be a major problem without 4AE cancel power. Unfortunately I will probably need to take at least one detachment from them. Splitting characters is my issue, you don't want to lose out on auras, I think the patriarch or abomanant would be best, maybe from a vanguard and just run anointed throng, but then I lose out on 4+ save ignoring rend abbs lol. Oh well, can't have it all.
I really want to use the jackals, building two boxes as we chat lol.
The just sit on the backfield objectives and the magus just picks mind control / mass hypnosis. Magus could summon a 4AE unit if I want it to get the +1 charge. Magus also gets the +d3 CP warlord trait with broodcoven. No problem with aura's.
I have not looked at the Jackals because I don't want to buy more stuff. Best way to stay away from getting persuaded is to simply not look at them! Are the good? No, do not tell me.... But are they? Damn!
So I just want to check and see if I'm understanding the rules correctly. When I take a AM detachment they replace all instances of <Regiment> with brood brothers, which means anyone issuing orders replaces the regiment clause with brood brother, meaning I can issue orders to brood brothers in my genestealer cult detachment with a company Commander in my AM detachment...is that correct?
UncleJetMints wrote: So I just want to check and see if I'm understanding the rules correctly. When I take a AM detachment they replace all instances of <Regiment> with brood brothers, which means anyone issuing orders replaces the regiment clause with brood brother, meaning I can issue orders to brood brothers in my genestealer cult detachment with a company Commander in my AM detachment...is that correct?
Technically, no. BROOD BROTHERS replaces <REGIMENT> but is not a <REGIMENT> as defined in the Astra Copywritum codex. It needs wording saying it is a regiment ala Militarum Tempestus to work.
Since Knights are making everyone sad, GW gave GSC the ability to kill a knight in a single turn using four models, three non-BRB rule books, two 18" range psychic powers and a partridge in a pear tree single Command Point!
Step 1: Take a GSC Detachment with a Patriarch. Take the Mental Onslaught power and give him the Inspiring Leader warlord trait from the BRB. Step 2: Also include a Clamavus and an Acolyte Iconward. Step 3: Make it a "Deliverance Broodsurge" detachment from Vigilus Defiant. Step 4: Give your Acolyte Iconward the "Vial of the Grandsire's Blood" relic from Vigilus Defiant. Step 5: Include a Brood Brothers detachment with either an Astropath or Primaris Psyker. Give them the "Terrifying Visions" power. Step 6: Somehow get both psykers within 18" of a Knight (or any other Ld9 or below model) and successfully cast Terrifying Visions, followed by Mental Onslaught.
That model now has no choice but to die horribly. Your Patriarch is now Leadership 13, which means the minimum roll you can get is 13+1=14 for your Mental Onslaught, while the maximum the enemy model can generate is 9-2+6=13.
That means that Knight Castellan with 28 wounds just melts into a pile of goo.
If you can somehow include a Tyranid Detachment and use "The Horror", or include a Locus you can delete any Ld 10 unit in the game, including a Warlord Battle Titan with 70 wounds (Void Shields do nothing because the power only stops if "you fail to inflict 1 mortal wound by having a score higher than your opponent’s."
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UncleJetMints wrote: Ah ok I thought maybe it also replace the instance of <regiment> in the voice of command ability with brood brothers as well.
Ya know you might be right there actually, it replaces all instances so it doesn't actually matter that Brood Brother isn't a regiment, it still replaces it on the Orders rule. I concede the point.
I've been looking at the codex through the shooty lens (I know, not the best angle but I've seen I'm not alone), I tend to like mid-range firepower mobile/mech stuff (think Sisters/Tau playstyle). I'd like to limit the CC elements where possible, as well as the Nid side, think early-stage cult or civilian/PDF rebellion more than full-blown infestation. For those interested, what do you thinks are the tools? So far I see:
Rusted Claw detachment for:
- Neophytes with Autoguns/GL/Stubbers
- Bikes/quads
- Jackal Alphus
- Acolytes with HF/Saws (Goliath? Underground?)
Bladed Cog detachment for:
- Neophytes in Goliath with Autoguns/GL/Mining Lasers
- Shotgun/Webbers/Seismic Canons. (Goliath? Underground?)
- Sanctus with Sniper Rifle
AM detachment for:
- Scions
- Taurox
As I am a sucker for relic shooty weapons / WLTs, I thought
- Gift from Beyond is quite obvious on either an Alphus or a Sanctus.
- Opressor's Bane: instinctively you look at a Kelermorph but he has the native ability and already good guns. If you think in marginal gains, it's a waste. I think the best way to use it is to give it to a guy with a regular autopistol, that won't be far from the fight so that you get a budget Kelermorph on top of those allowed in your detachments. I'm thinking Clamavus or Iconward. Thoughts?
- Kelermorph with the Twisted Helix Warlord Trait. +1D benefit is maximized the more shots your character has... probably overkill but can be hilarious. Probably sub-par as your WLT is surely better used elsewhere but in non-comp settings it could be fun. It would mean sacrificing either the AM detachment or having to make a choice between Rusted Claw and Bladed Cog. I'm really drawn to mobile heavy weapons but I feel on the whole Rusted Claw gives more benefits.
UncleJetMints wrote: Ah ok I thought maybe it also replace the instance of <regiment> in the voice of command ability with brood brothers as well.
So this is the keyword rule:
These ASTRA MILITARUM Detachments are then known as BROOD BROTHERS Detachments, and every unit in them that has the<REGIMENT> or MILITARUM TEMPESTUS keyword must replace it in every instance on its datasheet with BROOD BROTHERS (if a unit does not have either of these keywords,it simply gains the BROOD BROTHERS keyword).
Does Voice of Command count as being on the datasheet? I mean it is listed on it as a reference to the ability, so I'd assume it was still counted as being on it, which would change the description of Voice of Command on those units to:
Orders may only be issued to INFANTRY units within 6" of this unit that have the same <REGIMENT> BROOD BROTHERS keyword as this unit.
No way to know for sure until the FAQ drops, but it is fun to speculate! The only case I can find that might support this is the Master of Ordanance, which has an ability with the <REGIMENT> keyword that would be changed to Brood Brothers so that it affects the vehicles:
BaconCatBug wrote: Since Knights are making everyone sad, GW gave GSC the ability to kill a knight in a single turn using four models, three non-BRB rule books, two 18" range psychic powers and a partridge in a pear tree single Command Point!
Step 1: Take a GSC Detachment with a Patriarch. Take the Mental Onslaught power and give him the Inspiring Leader warlord trait from the BRB.
Step 2: Also include a Clamavus and an Acolyte Iconward.
Step 3: Make it a "Deliverance Broodsurge" detachment from Vigilus Defiant.
Step 4: Give your Acolyte Iconward the "Vial of the Grandsire's Blood" relic from Vigilus Defiant.
Step 5: Include a Brood Brothers detachment with either an Astropath or Primaris Psyker. Give them the "Terrifying Visions" power.
Step 6: Somehow get both psykers within 18" of a Knight (or any other Ld9 or below model) and successfully cast Terrifying Visions, followed by Mental Onslaught.
That model now has no choice but to die horribly. Your Patriarch is now Leadership 13, which means the minimum roll you can get is 13+1=14 for your Mental Onslaught, while the maximum the enemy model can generate is 9-2+6=13.
That means that Knight Castellan with 28 wounds just melts into a pile of goo.
If you can somehow include a Tyranid Detachment and use "The Horror", or include a Locus you can delete any Ld 10 unit in the game, including a Warlord Battle Titan with 70 wounds (Void Shields do nothing because the power only stops if "you fail to inflict 1 mortal wound by having a score higher than your opponent’s."
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UncleJetMints wrote: Ah ok I thought maybe it also replace the instance of <regiment> in the voice of command ability with brood brothers as well.
Ya know you might be right there actually, it replaces all instances so it doesn't actually matter that Brood Brother isn't a regiment, it still replaces it on the Orders rule. I concede the point.
I would likely use a tyranid detachment with a nerothrope and horror over the AM Psyker with terifying visions. It's 7diff wile horror is only 6 and the nero can reroll 1's. Fot it to stop once started opp needs a 6 after you roll a 1 and worst case senerio you can use a cp reroll to keep it going until the unit is dead barring the wrath of the dice gods.
I’m not even gonna bother theorycrafting the best way to kill stuff with mental onslaught. That thing is getting errata’d for sure, and I’d gain no satisfaction from erasing things with it in the meantime.
On the matter of some actual shenanigans, the drill gantry is an excellent way to put a couple units out of melee range. You could fill each floor with a heavy weapons team and nothing could touch them.
This may have been pointed out already, but a Twisted Helix Warlord Patriarch with the Twisted Helix trait and Might from the Beyond cast hits for 7 S7 D3+1 damage swings that do 4 damage on the rend. Until they FAQ Brood Coven to not be able to generate traits from other Cults you can use it to give a C4AE Magus Inscrutable Cunning (making the Brood Coven free at worst) and buff the Twisted Helix Primus that you already want to take to help your Aberants with Biomorph Adaption (+1A +1S). The reverse is also interesting-S8 A8 Patriarch and D2 Bonesword/Toxin Injector on the Primus.
Right now I'm thinking a small C4AE battalion with Magus, Iconward, and some Neophytes, a Twisted Helix Aberant bomb using hammers, Patrarch, Primus, Clamvus, and Nexos, and a Hive Fleet Kronos battalion.
C4AE brings Vect, and summoning from the Magus. Twisted Helix brings the heavy punch from the Aberants, CP regen, and LD 11 Patriarch Mental Onslaught. Kronos opens up the Horror and has the spell deny strat.
babelfish wrote: This may have been pointed out already, but a Twisted Helix Warlord Patriarch with the Twisted Helix trait and Might from the Beyond cast hits for 7 S7 D3+1 damage swings that do 4 damage on the rend. Until they FAQ Brood Coven to not be able to generate traits from other Cults you can use it to give a C4AE Magus Inscrutable Cunning (making the Brood Coven free at worst) and buff the Twisted Helix Primus that you already want to take to help your Aberants with Biomorph Adaption (+1A +1S). The reverse is also interesting-S8 A8 Patriarch and D2 Bonesword/Toxin Injector on the Primus.
Isn't the patriarch a genestealer unit and therefore will not benefit from creed bonus?
It is actually really easy to turn a Primus into a discount Patriarch.
Take a Twisted Helix Cult Creed for +1 strength. Then via the Broodcoven stratagem take the Biomorph Adaptation for another +1 strength and +1 attacks. You can then give the him the Sword of the Void's Eye which adds another +2 strength and allows rerolls to hit and wound.
End result = 5 strength 8 attacks hitting on 2s rerolling all hits and wounds at AP-2 d3 Damage. Not bad for a 75 point model.
This allows you to still put the Elixir of the Prime Specimen on the Patriarch. You can still Might From Beyond him too as well as give another close combat warlord trait like Shadow Stalker or Bio-Alchemist.
Allows you to get 2 very good close combat characters for 200 points
Yeah, bare freaking minimum Mental Onslaught needs to get changed to unmodified LD, if not also restricted to Infantry or Character like Mind War.
This codex has a lot to FAQ. I would again encourage everyone to not get lost in the sauce of busted brood brother combos, busted Locus "Cultroic Genetervention" strats, and busted Onslaught combos before we have confirmation that any of that gak is actively sticking around.
GW tried to build something on the foundation of the guard codex, which is the rules equivalent of trying to build a 70 story high rise on grahm crackers held together with bubblegum. It didn't work out.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, bare freaking minimum Mental Onslaught needs to get changed to unmodified LD, if not also restricted to Infantry or Character like Mind War.
This codex has a lot to FAQ. I would again encourage everyone to not get lost in the sauce of busted brood brother combos, busted Locus "Cultroic Genetervention" strats, and busted Onslaught combos before we have confirmation that any of that gak is actively sticking around.
GW tried to build something on the foundation of the guard codex, which is the rules equivalent of trying to build a 70 story high rise on grahm crackers held together with bubblegum. It didn't work out.
"Unmodified LD" sure, that power would suck ASS in that case. You're stacking 3+ auras and MULTIPLE psychic powers to have such an effect, it's the BARE MINIMUM to have the Mental Onslaught power itself DO SOMETHING with that HUGE support you're giving it
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, bare freaking minimum Mental Onslaught needs to get changed to unmodified LD, if not also restricted to Infantry or Character like Mind War.
This codex has a lot to FAQ. I would again encourage everyone to not get lost in the sauce of busted brood brother combos, busted Locus "Cultroic Genetervention" strats, and busted Onslaught combos before we have confirmation that any of that gak is actively sticking around.
GW tried to build something on the foundation of the guard codex, which is the rules equivalent of trying to build a 70 story high rise on grahm crackers held together with bubblegum. It didn't work out.
"Unmodified LD" sure, that power would suck ASS in that case. You're stacking 3+ auras and MULTIPLE psychic powers to have such an effect, it's the BARE MINIMUM to have the Mental Onslaught power itself DO SOMETHING with that HUGE support you're giving it
it's really not that huge at all. The only thing that isn't great in its own right is like LD warlord trait/reloc shut, and mostly only for opportunity cost, it doesn't actually cost you anything massive if you choose to go for it. Let's not over indulge ourselves here it's a pretty easy set up
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, bare freaking minimum Mental Onslaught needs to get changed to unmodified LD, if not also restricted to Infantry or Character like Mind War.
This codex has a lot to FAQ. I would again encourage everyone to not get lost in the sauce of busted brood brother combos, busted Locus "Cultroic Genetervention" strats, and busted Onslaught combos before we have confirmation that any of that gak is actively sticking around.
GW tried to build something on the foundation of the guard codex, which is the rules equivalent of trying to build a 70 story high rise on grahm crackers held together with bubblegum. It didn't work out.
"Unmodified LD" sure, that power would suck ASS in that case. You're stacking 3+ auras and MULTIPLE psychic powers to have such an effect, it's the BARE MINIMUM to have the Mental Onslaught power itself DO SOMETHING with that HUGE support you're giving it
No, I really don't think it would.
Sure, you need to get to a +5 difference for it to literally fething oneshot something with zero odds of failure. But you're looking at what's needed to get a LD9 target vs a LD10 target to +5 (which, by the way, is only "multiple" psychic powers if you mean "two, including the mental onslaught cast" and if by "3+" you mean "again, two.")
This is a power that works on any model. Which includes any vehicle. Most vehicles, because they don't need LD, have pretty low LD - poking through my indexes most vehicles are at LD7, the only ones that get up to 9 are superheavies and character vheicles like tank commanders.
MO is a WC6 power with a long range and no "you must be closest" restriction. Other direct damage powers with that kind of range and flexibility do 1.5-2 mortal wounds on average. Only highly restricted powers or highly expensive powers do 3-5 MWs on average.
With a +3 advantage, which is a patriarch with zero support against an average guard, tau, eldar, etc vehicle, you have a 1/6 chance of failure. That's 4-5 mortal wounds on average, which is ABSURD on a power that's not restricted by target type, WC6, with a long range and no "closest model" restriction. Absolute best in class direct damage power. With a +2 advantage (patriarch vs most marine vehicles, admech vehicles, necron vehicles) you're looking at a 10/36 chance of failure, which averages around 2-3 mortal wounds - still solidly better than most direct damage powers are.
The support that it takes to get the patriarch boosted to absurd levels with current MO is too small. Way too small. A 35pt character, the selection of 1 of your 3 warlord traits, and one other supporting power cast by a 25pt allied psyker, again with a decent range. The fact that you can with significant effort take out a superheavy is one thing, but the fact that with almost no effort you're in the realm of oneshotting heavy 150-200 point vehicles and instantly making the points back on your patriarch+all his support is what pushes the current iteration of the power way over the top.
Cephalobeard wrote: It's easy, but you're devoting portions of your army to it.
LD12-13 is simply to achieve because it typically involves:
1 WT 1 Relic
1 Clamavus
However, everything ELSE is requiring additional effort, like reducing enemy leadership, bringing tyranids just for "The Horror", etc.
However, a difference of 4 (So anything Ld9, etc) still ends with something like 4-6w on average.
If we're approaching the discussion honestly, we need to also acknowledge the scenario is not always "z0mg op you one shot all knights!!!"
No, it most certainly isn't. "ZOMG Op you one-shot knights" is relatively hard to achieve, and is why (at first) i just saw this as a Timmy Tactic - people losing their mind over an edge case.
However, achieving one-shot territory vs most medium to heavy vehicles which are usually LD7 or LD8 only requires approximately 200 points of miniatures to achieve and has the potential to instantly return that many points with pretty crazy reliability.
it's not the things that can achieve amazing results in an edge case that turn into balance problems. It's the things that can do that, optionally, but which can achieve over-average results amazingly consistently.
Also, the average wounds at +4 are way more than 4-5, you only have a 1 in 12 chance of failure. That average with compound probability is much closer to 8-9 - bonkers when compared to most direct damage powers. that's a patriarch with only a clamavus as support, which is something you would be taking anyway for the charge bonus, and nothing else, vs most vehicles.
Cephalobeard wrote: It's easy, but you're devoting portions of your army to it.
LD12-13 is simply to achieve because it typically involves:
1 WT 1 Relic
1 Clamavus
However, everything ELSE is requiring additional effort, like reducing enemy leadership, bringing tyranids just for "The Horror", etc.
However, a difference of 4 (So anything Ld9, etc) still ends with something like 4-6w on average.
If we're approaching the discussion honestly, we need to also acknowledge the scenario is not always "z0mg op you one shot all knights!!!"
When you bring Tyranids, you don't just get The Horror. And even if you did, that's a really good power that has great uses outside of contributing to one shotting units, and if you are sniping down big units with it it's more than worth the points.
This does very much have the ring of a classic MTG “magical Christmas land” combo. Seems really fun but people are saying the ability is a surefire to get faqed? Doesn’t make a ton of sense as it seems to have a lot of setup cost and be very disruptable. Does seem fun though.
So to get off the Mental onslaught one shot you need
Paterarch
Calmavus
Iconward(1CP Vigilus Det and take the relic)
Ether a Tyranid or a Guard allied detachment to take
Nerothrope or Guard Psyker
You then need to Ambush in your Paterarch within 18" of a knight with the Iconward and calmavus
and make sure you get your guard or Tyranid psyker within 18" as well.
You then need to successfully cast Terrifying visions (DC:7) or Horror (DC:6) and not get denied
Then you need to successfully cast Mental onslaught (DC:6)
So barring any issues with deployment and getting everything into place you need to make 2 DC 6 Psychic tests or a DC 6 and DC 7 psychic test and not be denied at all.
I honestly don't see any issue. If I were playing against something like this and had a knight I'd have to ether screen very well or bring multple psykers to deny the enemy casts.
If this fails you are left with a bunch of tasty targets for all your chaff to shoot at and then have your untouched knight blow them away.
If it does work cool neat trick....bad on me for letting you do it. Guess I will know better next time.
Oh and a single anti psyker assassin stops this dead in it's tracks.
This also gives you an excuse to use Gray knights as anti psykers they get +1 to deny and have a strat to rill 3 dice and take the best 2 for a deny.
I played against GSC tonight with my guard. I learned that Tank Commanders only have leadership 7. LOL. Feels bad man. 11 mortal wounds in a row from Mental Onslaught.
And holy crap, at one point I only had 2 battle tanks which could fire at Aberrants. The battle cannon is probably the worst weapon you can possibly use on them, hahaha. But I had no choice!
So with CP being very important you think we will see more Brigades to fuel them.
A Brood Brother Brigade can be as cheap as 594pts to get us
3 Company commanders
3 Platoon commanders
6 Inf Squads
3 Sentinels with Multi lasers
3 Heavy weapons squads with mortars
This gives some solid screening, good dakka and all the units have an order available to them 6 inf are covered by the 3 company commanders and the three HWT each have a Platoon commander.
(If they can use orders that is). We have seen at this year's LVO how important boots on the ground can be so it's all win to take it.
For an only extra 147 pts you can add Lazcannons to all the inf squads and heavy flamers to the sentinels.....
Colonel Cross wrote: I played against GSC tonight with my guard. I learned that Tank Commanders only have leadership 7. LOL. Feels bad man. 11 mortal wounds in a row from Mental Onslaught.
And holy crap, at one point I only had 2 battle tanks which could fire at Aberrants. The battle cannon is probably the worst weapon you can possibly use on them, hahaha. But I had no choice!
S8, 8 attack Patriarchs are very scary.
Super curious to hear more. What was effective and what wasn't?
So what does everyone think of the Telepathic Summons stratagem? Spend 2 CP and give up Psychic phase on one of your psykers (probably the Magus) to summon up to 3d6 PR. I'm thinking this would be a good way to bring in a unit of free Jackals. A full unit of 12 bike and 3 quads comes out to PR 12. Thoughts?
EnTyme wrote: So what does everyone think of the Telepathic Summons stratagem? Spend 2 CP and give up Psychic phase on one of your psykers (probably the Magus) to summon up to 3d6 PR. I'm thinking this would be a good way to bring in a unit of free Jackals. A full unit of 12 bike and 3 quads comes out to PR 12. Thoughts?
You’d have to have the required points set aside though so they’re not really “free”.
Ah. Didn't realize that was how summoning worked in 8th. Never used an army with a summoning ability this edition. If that's the case, you'd be better off setting those bikes up underground.
Colonel Cross wrote: I played against GSC tonight with my guard. I learned that Tank Commanders only have leadership 7. LOL. Feels bad man. 11 mortal wounds in a row from Mental Onslaught.
And holy crap, at one point I only had 2 battle tanks which could fire at Aberrants. The battle cannon is probably the worst weapon you can possibly use on them, hahaha. But I had no choice!
S8, 8 attack Patriarchs are very scary.
Super curious to hear more. What was effective and what wasn't?
Honestly the biggest takeaway was that it is VERY effective to be able to move your blip markers up to 12" and also deploy multiple blips for 1 unit. That kind of flexibility is insane.
I also learned what unbuffed units are capable of. They could effectively cripple leman russ profile units on their own with 4 rock saws and 6 regular acolytes. It is good to learn the expectations.
I definitely saw a massive spike in damage on turn 2 and then it gradually fall back off again as buffs wore off, units got crippled by anti infantry fire, he ran out of CPs, etc. But that is exactly what I expected. I feel like if an opponent screens well and knows how to take a gut punch on turn 2, they may be set to weather the storm.
The number of attacks every single unit puts out in CC is pretty scary for any army that has T4 or below infantry.
My opponent started the game with 16CPs, I think, and had spent 14 by the end of his 2nd turn.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, bare freaking minimum Mental Onslaught needs to get changed to unmodified LD, if not also restricted to Infantry or Character like Mind War.
This codex has a lot to FAQ. I would again encourage everyone to not get lost in the sauce of busted brood brother combos, busted Locus "Cultroic Genetervention" strats, and busted Onslaught combos before we have confirmation that any of that gak is actively sticking around.
GW tried to build something on the foundation of the guard codex, which is the rules equivalent of trying to build a 70 story high rise on grahm crackers held together with bubblegum. It didn't work out.
"Unmodified LD" sure, that power would suck ASS in that case. You're stacking 3+ auras and MULTIPLE psychic powers to have such an effect, it's the BARE MINIMUM to have the Mental Onslaught power itself DO SOMETHING with that HUGE support you're giving it
it's really not that huge at all. The only thing that isn't great in its own right is like LD warlord trait/reloc shut, and mostly only for opportunity cost, it doesn't actually cost you anything massive if you choose to go for it. Let's not over indulge ourselves here it's a pretty easy set up
Bingo.
Even at LD 10 a Patriarch will get off Onslaught and you will only beat him with a Ld 8 unit on a 4+ if he rolls a 1.
The thing with Mental Onslaught is its use in a wide variety of applications, and the fact that (outside of a failed cast/cancel) it is going to wreck whatever it goes on.
Even Unmodified LD its still way, way too powerful. I can see it being ERRATA'd to be a Max Mortal wounds (i.e. Can only deal up to 6 Mortal Wounds) or something. You already have Mind Control which is stupidly powerful as it stands, not to mention way easier to cast than the Tzeetch one that does basically the same thing, and very hard to fail with 3d6Ld.
The Tzeentch one is also hot garbage and shouldn't be used as a barometer for anything.
You're also showing that you don't understand the ability, or how it functions. You need to beat their roll to continue going. At base LD10, against most existing units (LD8) you have a +2 to the roll. If you roll a 3, they beat you no matter what, and nothing happens.
Cephalobeard wrote: The Tzeentch one is also hot garbage and shouldn't be used as a barometer for anything.
You're also showing that you don't understand the ability, or how it functions. You need to beat their roll to continue going. At base LD10, against most existing units (LD8) you have a +2 to the roll. If you roll a 3, they beat you no matter what, and nothing happens.
i kind of see it being turned into something similar to slaanesh's cacophonic choir where its flat LD difference mortal wounds if the spell goes off
I've used it 2 times ld 12 vs 8 and did 1 wound. People that think even unmodified it is to powerful have no clue how probability works. It only gets way to powerful at the high end when there is no chance/only 1 vs 6 roll that you fail.
I'm building lists non stop. One way to get a brigade quick is 6 minimum Acolyte units, putting a Rocksaw in each for some punch. I can't think of any good advantages to running multiple small units (MSU) in this army though. It makes using all those tasty Brigade CPs totally inefficient, it makes the psychic buffs nearly useless and it's more difficult to keep aura buffs active.
Caspian89 wrote: I'm building lists non stop. One way to get a brigade quick is 6 minimum Acolyte units, putting a Rocksaw in each for some punch. I can't think of any good advantages to running multiple small units (MSU) in this army though. It makes using all those tasty Brigade CPs totally inefficient, it makes the psychic buffs nearly useless and it's more difficult to keep aura buffs active.
Are there benefits to running MSU Acolyte squads?
They could be useful for additional blips in your deployment and then returning to shadows to then come in late game for OBJ grabs or tying up enemy units. 5 Acolytes are cheaper than 10 Neophytes so there is that.
Caspian89 wrote: I'm building lists non stop. One way to get a brigade quick is 6 minimum Acolyte units, putting a Rocksaw in each for some punch. I can't think of any good advantages to running multiple small units (MSU) in this army though. It makes using all those tasty Brigade CPs totally inefficient, it makes the psychic buffs nearly useless and it's more difficult to keep aura buffs active.
Are there benefits to running MSU Acolyte squads?
I'm curious what people think is the minimum viable size of acolytes. Right now because I am depending on a lot of Brood Brothers to fill out my detachments, I am planning on squads of 13, 13, and 14 acolytes. That way too small?
Caspian89 wrote: I'm building lists non stop. One way to get a brigade quick is 6 minimum Acolyte units, putting a Rocksaw in each for some punch. I can't think of any good advantages to running multiple small units (MSU) in this army though. It makes using all those tasty Brigade CPs totally inefficient, it makes the psychic buffs nearly useless and it's more difficult to keep aura buffs active.
Are there benefits to running MSU Acolyte squads?
I'm curious what people think is the minimum viable size of acolytes. Right now because I am depending on a lot of Brood Brothers to fill out my detachments, I am planning on squads of 13, 13, and 14 acolytes. That way too small?
I'm wanting to run 15+ unit squads. Aiming to take advantage of the Vigilus Broodsurge +1 wound strat as often as possible, rending on 5's! But they are squishy and I'm realizing that I'll need a Patriarch near them to mitigate moral losses. Given that I'm leaning towards a Patriarch for the fearless bubble I'm likely to just go up to two squads at 20. Mind you I have about 40 models and I would be very careful about buying more them given how expensive they are!
Caspian89 wrote: I'm building lists non stop. One way to get a brigade quick is 6 minimum Acolyte units, putting a Rocksaw in each for some punch. I can't think of any good advantages to running multiple small units (MSU) in this army though. It makes using all those tasty Brigade CPs totally inefficient, it makes the psychic buffs nearly useless and it's more difficult to keep aura buffs active.
Are there benefits to running MSU Acolyte squads?
I'm curious what people think is the minimum viable size of acolytes. Right now because I am depending on a lot of Brood Brothers to fill out my detachments, I am planning on squads of 13, 13, and 14 acolytes. That way too small?
Depends on what you're going to do with them. But with specific boosts like; might from beyond, +1 to wound with broodsurge stratagem, perfect ambush and conga line within aura range I like to go for the big units. I take one big unit with flamers so that I can get them best 'layer removal' with the 'lying in wait' stratagem. 20 hand flamers can almost remove 3 astra m units. But you can also get one the broodsurge detachment and pick one big unit for the perfect ambush stratagem, in combination with more small units to make sure you get more assault attempts.
I've just gotten hold of the GSC book and I'm dusting off my hillbillies for 8th.
Where's a good place to start? I notice there are dirtbikes and dune buggies now - are these worth looking at, or is it still all about Acolytes and Metamorphs? Is Vigilus a good buy?
I'm curious what people think is the minimum viable size of acolytes
That depends on what you want them to do. 5 or 6 dudes with 2 saws in a Rockgrinder are viable to take on light vehicles or some infantry.
For the heavy lifting I take 10 guys, 4 saws and a banner. All with HFs.
I don't really see the merit in taking even bigger units. I haven't encountered a single unit that my 10 Acos didn't utterly annihilate. What do you need those 20 guys and their 8 saws for? That many Knights roaming your tables?
Bigger units also don't really become more durable. Seriously, they are guardsmen and every army out there is capable of killing 10-20 guardsmen in a single round no matter what.
To me it makes more sense to split those 20 Aco deathstars into 2x10. They will still absolutely murderise their target but now you can engage twice as many units.
I'm curious what people think is the minimum viable size of acolytes
That depends on what you want them to do. 5 or 6 dudes with 2 saws in a Rockgrinder are viable to take on light vehicles or some infantry.
For the heavy lifting I take 10 guys, 4 saws and a banner. All with HFs.
I don't really see the merit in taking even bigger units. I haven't encountered a single unit that my 10 Acos didn't utterly annihilate. What do you need those 20 guys and their 8 saws for? That many Knights roaming your tables?
Bigger units also don't really become more durable. Seriously, they are guardsmen and every army out there is capable of killing 10-20 guardsmen in a single round no matter what.
To me it makes more sense to split those 20 Aco deathstars into 2x10. They will still absolutely murderise their target but now you can engage twice as many units.
Because 'perfect ambush' and 'lying in wait' only works on one unit, so why not go all the way? More models also makes it easier to 'tri-pod' a unit and lock them in. 10 acolytes losing 2 models due to overwatch and trying to keep the unit within aura range could mean that only 5 models can hit in close combat. Not really that intimidating.
If I want to take down a big unit with shining spears, custodes jetbikes, a knight, 30 orks the I want that big acolyte unit..
The new Imperial Assassins look like a good counter to all the new GSC characters — and seem like they'll be an auto-include for most Imperial armies — how do you guys plan on dealing with them?
Agreed, because of the 'lying in the wait' stratagem.
shadowfinder wrote: 15 seams like a ideal number lose a few in overwatch and still have about 10 guys hit.
Yep, but look at the complete picture; which unit is going to use 'perfect ambush'? Do you want an abberant unit for this? You also cannot deploy each and every unit around the aura characters. If you do want to do this, as much as possible and still want to maintain board control then you need big units. If you want to jam an abberant unit down their throat and only use a few units without any character support dropping in at a flank then you could just as well get small units because of morale checks and multiple assault attempts.
shadowfinder wrote: 10 seams to small but they would double the number of unit you can hit.
One unit can use 'perfect ambush'. 2x10 units could mean that the other 10 cannot reach close combat.
shadowfinder wrote: 5 man squad to go after objectives and a cheap way to fill out battalions.
I rather get neophytes for that. 10 neophytes with shotguns + assault attempt could also claim that flank objective and then I got 10 wounds on the objective instead of 5. I wouldn't charge 10 astra militarum infantry models with 5 acolytes (overwatch).
shadowfinder wrote: Oh and I been running Meta's with whips and flamers in 10 man squads. They do work as back field holds or mid board objective grabbers.
I think meta's are too expensive for simple objective holders. You need battalions for command points and for that you need troops. I would always pick one broodsurge detachment with acolytes because reroll charge is too good not to have, and then neophytes fill in the other troop choices as objective holders. Even offensive, you would be better off with abberants or genestealers.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Khorzain wrote: The new Imperial Assassins look like a good counter to all the new GSC characters — and seem like they'll be an auto-include for most Imperial armies — how do you guys plan on dealing with them?
EnTyme wrote: So what does everyone think of the Telepathic Summons stratagem? Spend 2 CP and give up Psychic phase on one of your psykers (probably the Magus) to summon up to 3d6 PR. I'm thinking this would be a good way to bring in a unit of free Jackals. A full unit of 12 bike and 3 quads comes out to PR 12. Thoughts?
Used it at a tournament (RTT) yesterday and it is worth its weight in gold. I only set aside 120 which is exactly enough for either 15 HF acolytes or 10 double scythe metas with an icon.
I tried both, game 1 I was facing deathwatch on a naked table and got masacred overall but it was fine, I wavne't played much 40 all winter and I wanted to test everything out so I had 10 of the characters and new I wasn't going to place well. Against the first round I summoned the 15 HF acolytes, was a mistake, with prepared positions and take cover I killed ~12 of the 30 screen. The acolytes would have soaked overwatch, but would have killed two units easily. Oh well, as I said the the table was almost entirely open, his DW vets never moved and just dumped 36 rerolling everything shots each (4 units) and couldn't be tied up, and all had SS. I think I could beat him again, but obviously I'd need a tuned list. My biggest annoyance was realizing on the ride home I shot his libby first turn with my sanctus and he failed his save, rolled a 2 in cover, so he CP'd it and got a 3 to pass. Only he shouldn't have passed since I forgot the stupid familiar provides ignore cover. Should have taken d3 damage plus the perils and he was standing next to 3 characters and 2 DW vet units. AHHHHHHHHH!
Second game I played another C4AE list. He gave me first turn and I summoned the metas, they killed two acolyte squads and due to sloppy deployment (didn't expect a turn 1 charge) I tied up a leman russ and tagged to ridge runners. I ended up creaming him because my turn 1 was so strong. Sanctus popped his Magus on turn 2 This game I gave him gift from beyond for a relic. This game demonstrated that you really want 1st turn against a rival cult, the board control and early positioning is way stronger then counter deploying with reserves.
3rd game was against a demon army of mostly slaanesh. It had a large unit of 12 fiends, two keeper, furys of nurgle, demonettes skull canons and a bloodletter bomb, nurlgings and some harp ladies. We both goofed off too much since we were having fun and couldn't place well and didn't finish the game. That said, part of the distraction was the sanctus (gift from beyond again) I deployed and shot his warlord keeper (bad choice by him) and did 6 wounds after the perils, then in the shooting phase did the exact same thing after he failed with a CP reroll killing it turn 1 and causing him to explode in the middle of his army. After the splash damage he did 23 wounds including the keep!
I learned a few things.
-4 orginal characters are still great, not much to be said. Primus is flat better for buffing abbs then grey hulk sadly.
-Anointed throng is dead. The abomanant did nothing all tournament and you don't need him to get the abbs in combat. Save the 2 CP and take a second Patriarch or broodlord in place of him. It sucks since I own 3, 2 converted, but he just isn't worth his cost.
-Deliverance BS is great, but you get in the way of yourself if you deploy from underground with too many acolyes. 32mm bases makes it tougher then you would think, especially sicne your crowding around the Icon ward, I think I placed him to far forward, it's much easier to daisy chain guys back to him so always deploy him last after you chain your units back to one point, same goes for the clamavus. I messed up and put them down first in my first two games.
-Nexos is garbage, at least in an alpha strike list. You spend so many CP pre game, then turn 1 the characters that buff his regen are not on the table. I gained 1-2 CP per game tops (I can't role 6's) I just don't like him at 50 points, however maybe in alternate lists he will change my mind. His first ability really is useless though. You have SOOOO many blips, moving 1 is meaningless.
-Kelermorph is as amazing as you'd expect, he shoots down entire squads of GEQ and murders small character Just don't be surprised when an angry opponent hunts hm down right after.
-Sanctus sniper... OMG Maybe it's just me, but I even rolled poorly first two games and he is so good. I am soo angry with myself for forgeting that the little familiar is there for a reason. I had solid odds at murdering his libby which would have meant he was 3 for 3. This guy is going to be better then the knife I think because the knife is still easily screened from such characters, and then he dies. The sniper is a terrifying threat all game and holds and objective in your backfield.
-Clamuvus (clam-man) is money, does what you'd expect. I bought a second in case.
-Jackal Alphus- another amazing model, she even makes your neophytes solid at chaf clearence from range. She also combos with the sanctus very well, if they counter move away from your snipers LOS, you just move them both, she pionts at them and you still hit on a 2 She is very fast and has a great weapon, I'd say she is one of the better HQ's we can take.
-Atalan Jackals- I used mine with demos and shotguns and a ML wolf quad. I had 2 units, they are fun to use but very swingy. Rusted claw strat would make them better, just be warned they eat your CP like crazy. 2 to drop in another 1 for the grendade strat and if Rusted Claw it would be a 4th CP, I don't think it's the best use for them, I think you are better off with either small cheap squads for zoning and camping on objectives or one large unit with knives and shotguns for a turn 1 charge.
I know this post is getting lengthy but I'll end it with some list ideas I have been brainstorming with a local friend and fellow GSC player. I think a strong list will be using turn 1 assault elements.
-Kraken Stealers
-Summoned unit*
-Disembarked unit with psychic stim*
-Broodsurge unit off a truck using strat*
-X number of purestrians/patriarchs from trucks
*Just disembark a clam man and advance turn 1 (4AE) and he gets 3" + his base + 6" +D6+2" = 13/18" from your DZ able to buff all the GSC units turn 1, unit disembarking with him well get similar distance up field but needs psychic stim to assault. Thats 4 units in your opponents face first turn. Theoretically you could also add GSC stealers and a patriarch in vehicles to just keep adding more units for turn 1 assaulting goodness.
I don't understand everyone's fear of assassin's. Don't they take up a force org slot? Who isn't maximizing CPs with multiple Battalions? At best they take a full vanguard det for +1CP and then have to spend CPs to make the assassins viable during the game
Colonel Cross wrote: I don't understand everyone's fear of assassin's. Don't they take up a force org slot? Who isn't maximizing CPs with multiple Battalions? At best they take a full vanguard det for +1CP and then have to spend CPs to make the assassins viable during the game
If you're not informed about the new rules, why are you commenting? You don't need to take a Vanguard or Aux Support to take a single assassin anymore.
nagash42 wrote: Yep assassin rules are out, those were some nice characters we had once.
I didn't see anything in their rules which stops Brood Brothers from jumping in front of the bullets. Then stab the shooty ones and shoot the stabby ones.
Colonel Cross wrote: I don't understand everyone's fear of assassin's. Don't they take up a force org slot? Who isn't maximizing CPs with multiple Battalions? At best they take a full vanguard det for +1CP and then have to spend CPs to make the assassins viable during the game
If you're not informed about the new rules, why are you commenting? You don't need to take a Vanguard or Aux Support to take a single assassin anymore.
The rules have been out for what........like 8 hours? From blurry screenshots from a magazine?
It's really easy to miss a random post in a thread like this that links that image. Why be rude and abrupt instead of just linking the rules?
Can we get back to the topic before this turns into an unevitable argument?
Right now the Culexus and Vindicare seem to be the most dangerous to the Cult. The Culexus provides protection against our potent psychics and the Vindicare can pick off our squisy characters.
BaconCatBug wrote: Yeah, GSC can't take assassins but Chaos can via Cypher.
I think the Eversor will also be a bit dangerous. It can mulch though hoards like nobodies business.
So I'm not a GSC player, but I did use the new Eversor in a match against GSC last night. (who was running 3 battalions) Let me tell you this: he did a fair amount of damage to a big blob of Brood Brothers Infantry...then was utterly mulched as the GSC player brought in some Hand Flamers and the remaining Brood Brothers FRFSRF'd. He did explode for some extra mortal wounds, but it was all in all fairly lackluster and he barely killed half his points.
He's killed too easily by mass small arms fire to really be much of an issue for an army like GSC. He might have some other uses elsewhere, but they only thing you need to avoid is letting him charge your Genestealers, which he could surprisingly put a hurt on.
Causalis wrote: Can we get back to the topic before this turns into an unevitable argument?
Right now the Culexus and Vindicare seem to be the most dangerous to the Cult. The Culexus provides protection against our potent psychics and the Vindicare can pick off our squisy characters.
The Culexus is going to be annoying.
Wouldn't have thought the Vindicare is a major concern though. You have unquestioning loyalty to eat the shots (and, a bit weirdly, the induced mortal wounds if he does connect).
I guess you might want to LoS your Nexos - but since that is literally all he wants to do all game thats not the worst thing in the world.
If they take 3 thats going to be annoying - but its also quite a chunk of points to knock out some 50-60 point characters.
Not really related - but having previously gone "lol no" I am possibly warming to the Jackal Alpha+Ridgerunners - although a Russ might be better. On the other hand the Russ degrades.
Kind of wish though that there was a vaguely sensible build for the runner other than heavy mining laser/flare launcher. I feel the mortar and missile launcher should have got double the shots and been a bit more expensive.
The calexus isn't a big deal because you can counter deploy and redeploy outsider his reach. He also dies like a chump to volume of attacks which is pretty much all we do. Hand flamers anyone?
Honestly, the most annoying one is the callidus because she can make our expensive strats more expensive. Honestly, at 85 pts a piece, and needing CP's for themselves I don't think they will be all that game changing. If you bring repeats they burn a detachment and don't give you 1cp. That is pretty crappy.
I brought The Drill to a game last night and lemme tell you, that thing is nasty against...other genestealer cult armies. Hitting multiple grouped up characters and units on a 4+ can do some work. Won’t kill anything on its own but will weaken things considerably, especially lots of MSU.
I haven’t read through all 20 pages yet so this may have been discussed already, but what’s the opinion of taking a supreme command detachment of AM to take a shadow sword or one of the other variants?
Badablack wrote: I brought The Drill to a game last night and lemme tell you, that thing is nasty against...other genestealer cult armies. Hitting multiple grouped up characters and units on a 4+ can do some work. Won’t kill anything on its own but will weaken things considerably, especially lots of MSU.
The issue I have with it are it needing a detachment slot and also only being able to seismic quake once per battle.
The Drill also lets you put another unit in reserve if you’re going all in on deepstriking. That plus the other 3 from the ambush token stratagem can put just about your whole army in reserve.
Use a mix of Blips and Deepstrike to pile onto objectives ASAP, with some muscle stuff to give the enemy a hard time.
At present, that includes 3 Manticores from a Spearhead detachment. Not needing LoS means I can have a crack at anything. Depending on my opponent's list, I'll either priortise Big Nasty Units or ObSec type Troops - to give me an easier time.
Hopefully, those three combined with an Abominant and two small units of Aberrants will let me apply and maintain serious pressure, whilst my Hybrids just sit around racking up easy VPs. Depending on the cards I draw, I could end up with a headstart my opponent will struggle with.
To support this, I'm plumping for Rusted Claw. Once the Hybrids are in cover, that save boost can give me a 3+, which is jolly nice on T3, 5 point dudes!
How good is the idea of using a mass infantry army with twisted helix advancing up the field? They have +1 S and also +2 advance, which could make them pretty interesting for this.
On one hand, the advantages are clear to see. Of course they are.
But on the other, between Blip shenanigans and being able to drop stuff pretty much wherever we fancy, I don't rank it as useful as others.
I for one don't intend on having to do a great deal of movement overall, at least not with my Troops. They drop in, seize and hold the objective, then camp out. Rusted Claw is a natural match there, for the reasons in my post above. Turns an otherwise squishy unit into some far harder to remove. And if I've got heavy hitters rampaging about, the intent is to overwhelm my opponent with valid targets, further diluting what he can throw at me whilst I'm busy racking up early VPs.
So for my approach (and I'm only commenting on that), I'm not sure Twisted Helix is all that useful.
I agree to some extend, when you consider your approach. If you use maelstrom it is certainly usefull to have +2 advance, because you will have to move.
I really have problems with the underground assault being good enough to charge everything. 9 inch away is just so risky. If you are not able to perfect ambush and/or have a clamavus, you will have to walk a part of the field anyway.
So imho you can just pop-in two units (turn 2 and 3) with A perfect ambush to get the charge reliably. So you will have just two assault units making a charge without needing to walk up the field. Even with 4AE you just have 42% success for the charge...
As far as Assassins go, I think GSC have less to worry about than any other faction. Between Unquestioning Loyalty and our ability to almost null deploy, we should be able to take out any Assassins before they come anywhere close to earning their points back.
Astmeister wrote: How good is the idea of using a mass infantry army with twisted helix advancing up the field? They have +1 S and also +2 advance, which could make them pretty interesting for this.
I'm utilizing 60 Helix Acolytes, but i'm not likely to be running them up the table.
I also have 60 Rusted Claw Neophytes, but again, unlikely to be running up the table, but they'll be camping objectives.
So if you use 60 Acolytes what do you do with them? You can only put 40 of them on the table via A perfect ambush. The last 20 will probably not make the charge after deep strike. Even if you use Clamavus + 4AE.
I'll be direct, I don't know what you mean by "You can only put 40 of them on the table".
They're, more or less, all going to be hunkering down in Reserve with a Clamavus and their Broodsurge Iconward, coming down in waves.
8" Charge with reroll, and/or CP reroll, gives relative reliability.
If they're on the table in any capacity turn 1 they're going to die to any level of shooting, so I see little value on them being elsewhere.
I run them entirely naked, zero upgrades, so even if a charge fails for one reason or another, at the very least I haven't invested heavily in their wargear.
My list was posted on previous pages, you're welcome to check it out.
Here's my opinion, for what it's worth on the internet:
I'm warm to the Twisted Helix. I don't like non-Perfect Ambush charges and getting a measly +1 from 4-Armed doesn't seem worth a whole trait. Twisted Helix and Pauper Prince are interesting to me but I prefer Twisted Helix ATM because it has much more utility with the +2 to advance rolls and the buff I most often want to give my units as a permanent feature that doesn't require extra work. The Pauper Prince Warlod Trait is nuts (+2 to Unquestioning Loyalty for Warlord) but doesn't tip the scales for me. Pauper Prince can save you a lot of points not taking Primus models or Cult Icons and also maximizes buffs like Might From Beyond...but drops off quickly post charge.
I think Acolytes and Patriarch do all the heavy lifting for this army. Point for point they are insanely efficient. Why bring Abberants at all? Acolytes with the +1 wound strat from Deliverance Broodsurge is bonkers. Purestrains seem meh in point for point comparison with Acolytes. Acolytes can be tooled for any target. Pick Abberants are great but with Twisted Helix I think I prefer Metamorphs over Abberants point for point. This ends up saving a ton of points.
Unquestioning Loyalty is an incredible ability combined with the super efficient Patriarch. I'm taking 2 Patriarchs, surrounded with 20 Neophytes. You can outfit the Patriarchs for different roles via traits and gear. The 20 Neophytes and any support characters also augment and enhance the role. Twisted Helix Locus models for instance are pretty amazing with S5 at only 40 points.
I even like Twisted Helix bikers. Take them with all Cultists Knives. I still want the Quad for the flamer since I'm want them for screen clearing. Cast Psychic Stimulus on them and they are likely to get a turn 1 charge off and tie up annoying units or even do a decent job of clearing screens. I can't think of any other unit we get that can get a turn 1 charge off with this much range. Hopefully they can trap units easily with the long bases, not do too much damage and remain safe from enemy shooting.
I also find that the codex is pushing me to have the same Cult Creed across all my detachments. Mixing and matching really locks you in tactically when your aura buffs all require the same keywords to work. Going mono Creed gives way more ability to adapt and avoid stranded characters who can no longer contribute to the game once the unit they were buffing is weakened.
As an army, we’ve got cheap chaff up the wazoo, and some real heavy hitters for largely reasonable cost.
Trick is, as far I’m concerned, to overwhelm the enemy. Not necessarily in combat, but with threats. It takes a lot to stop Aberrants in their tracks. But if we’re also holding or at least contesting multiple, if not all, objectives, that’s also a pressure our opponent needs to address. Get it wrong, and I’ll either be wrecking face, or bagging loads of VPs though Tactical Objectives.
Me, I’m adding a Sanctus and a Kelermorph for just that reason. Yes they’re pretty much death on toast with a side of fried gold against characters if we get an open shot at the buggers. But even if my opponent is dodging them, that’s still good enough for me, because I’m then controlling the flow of the game, and reducing their options. This goes doubly so if they’re depending on saucy bubblebuffs. If they can’t safely keek their head out, I’m reducing that threat.
This is also why I’m completely sold on Manticores as support. They can hit like a ton of bricks, and don’t need LoS. Three of those in the first turn have a decent chance of deleting stuff I don’t want to face for any length of time. Possibly two such units, if the dice are favourable. And all without draining my CP pool. If there’s big Nasties, they’re getting tonked turn one. But if the big nasty is included at the expense of reliable scoring units, it’s those few scoring units I’ll be looking to turn into little splutchy pancakes.
Control, control, control. That’s where I see the key to victory. We can rock up pretty much wherever best suits. And we do a damned fine game of Find The Lady with our Blips, further stacking things in our favour for the early game. If we can get good at controlling the first four turns, chances are we’ll have opened up a serious lead in the VP stakes.
If we can keep our opponents second guessing and not really knowing which threat to deal with and in what order, the game is ours but for how the dice land.
Caspian89 wrote: I think Acolytes and Patriarch do all the heavy lifting for this army. Point for point they are insanely efficient. Why bring Abberants at all? Acolytes with the +1 wound strat from Deliverance Broodsurge is bonkers. Purestrains seem meh in point for point comparison with Acolytes. Acolytes can be tooled for any target. Pick Abberants are great but with Twisted Helix I think I prefer Metamorphs over Abberants point for point. This ends up saving a ton of points.
True, I'am not a big fan of the abberants. I rather pick a big acolyte unit with the right tools. But I don't understand the appeal of metamorphs. I want one metapmorph unit with talons as an option for summoning but I would not include them in my list.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Control, control, control. That’s where I see the key to victory. We can rock up pretty much wherever best suits. And we do a damned fine game of Find The Lady with our Blips, further stacking things in our favour for the early game. If we can get good at controlling the first four turns, chances are we’ll have opened up a serious lead in the VP stakes. If we can keep our opponents second guessing and not really knowing which threat to deal with and in what order, the game is ours but for how the dice land.
Yep, but you really got to decide when to use your army as a scalpel or go in like a hammer. At a testgame I once deployed my acolyte bomb (3x20 acolytes) in front of 30 orks with +1 charge and reroll charge (broodsurge detachment). The all failed... At the other side of the battlefield I deployed 30 acolytes with flamers 3 inch away from another ork unit and charged with a big acolyte unit another ork unit (perfect ambush). I should have waited with my acolyte bomb because their was no reason not to wait until the next turn because then I could use 'perfect ambush' again. I should have left that flank alone and focus on the other side, but I was to eager.
There’s definitely a steep learning curve with GSC. Learning when and how best to spend our CP is pretty critical.
Me? I’m not entirely sold on the usual trickery. I mean it’s good, don’t get me wrong. But I fear opponents will come to expect it, and act accordingly. More tempting to my mind to use the target denial and ‘they’ve scarpered’ ones at opportune moments. They’ve Scarpered particularly appeals, as if I’m keeping my objectives secret, there’s a reasonable chance I can get my opponent on a wild goose chase with at least one unit.
And in not particularly sporting terms, don’t forget that a frustrated opponent is more prone to making mistakes. By no means does this mean we should add ‘act like a total Richard’ to our repetoir. Just that we should be open to playing silly buggers if it means our opponent is kept baffled and chasing ghosts. And we can’t readily do that if we’ve cashed in our CP for early game tricks.
I've still not had a chance to get a game in yet. How many CPs do we need at 1500 points once the game gets started?
I want to have a battalion and a vanguard, and make one a Deilverance Broodsurge and the other an Anointed Throng, butas I also want a broodcoven and Grandsire's Gifts I'll be leaving myself with only 5+d3 CP. I'm thinking that might not be enough?
I'll have lots of built in advantages, but will I regret not having access to in-game stratagems?
Fifty wrote: I've still not had a chance to get a game in yet. How many CPs do we need at 1500 points once the game gets started?
I want to have a battalion and a vanguard, and make one a Deilverance Broodsurge and the other an Anointed Throng, but I'll be leaving myself with only 5+d3 CP. I'm thinking that might not be enough?
I'll have lots of built in advantages, but will I regret not having access to in-game stratagems?
it depends a bit. It is smart to do a count. Do you plan to use perfect ambush turn 2 and 3? Thqt is 6 cp. Do you have a unit that needs lying i wait? That is another 2 cp.
Do you need any re-rolls? Yiu know, for that charge you do not make etc.
It really hinges on how you want to run your army.
Me? I can’t do the 12cp formation, because I want 3 Manticores allied in. That means by the time I’ve added the infantry I need, I don’t have the points to pack in the rest of the minimums.
In turn, that dictates how I run my force overall. With comparatively few CP (10 total) I just can’t do the sort of tricks many espouse. But looking at our Stratagems, there is quite a lot I can do.
Now, first turn I’m spending a minimum of 2, realistically. 1CP to hide my Tactical Objectives, and 1CP to re-roll the number of shots for one of my Manticores (I may not need to, and won’t if I don’t have to, but best to factor it in as a given) to ensure maximum first turn carnage.
From there, it depends on my initial deployment, and that of my enemy. If I feel Find The Lady with my Blips is required (or indeed bunging more stuff down the sewer), then so be it. But, I’m of a mind to store them for later. I feel it may be wiser to do so, as it’ll let me use Return to the Shadows and Lurk in the Shadows later on, aiming to frustrate my opponent,
But, this is all due to my own approach. As noted in other posts, I’m aiming for board control. Swamp Objectives early on. Rack up those VPs as fast as possible, and from as many sources as possible. Idea there is to force my opponent to be solely reactive, always chasing their tail whilst I potter about being up to no good.
Either way, I’ll have relatively few CP, so really need to think about what they’re best spent on, and when.
Some of the tricks I can potentially replicate with a Magus using Psychic Stimulus. Whilst less reliable, it’s essentially a free ‘Perfect Ambush’ each turn. 6+ to cast it, and that unit can Advance and Charge in the same turn. Whilst not as outright nasty as other powers open to us, it is potentially game winning.
For me, it really is all about seizing control of the flow of the battle, and getting those VPs faster than my opponent, and in ways he can’t really prevent.
1: What is the goliath for? I can not deside it's intended purpose, nor what gun to put on it.
2: So much of our army crumbles to the slightest breese. Is it alpha strikes all the way?
3: Charging. How do you pull it off? We can do a perfect ambush turn 2 and 3. But what else outside of that`?
4: How do you deside of what to perfect ambush?
Acolyte hybrids with weapons and genstealers seems like the best all rounders. Hybrid Metamrophs and Abberants seems specialised vs no armour saves and vs heavy tragets respectivly.
5: What are good set ups for neophyte hybrids? What roles can they do?
I have a lot of acolytes but I don't think I have nearly as many as you do 
