How viable do people think putting a mob of Genestealers in a Goliath would be? Tempting target yes, but not terribly so; and would give the GS a little more survivability until the truck is popped.
I plan on having 2-3 Goliaths in final army with mix of acolytes and neophytes. Quite cheap for what they can do in my opinion. Leman Russ is also a valid option considering those things are still tough.
Sadly GSC just likes having infantry more then vehicles (not including bikes). Which is why I also propably have some 40 foot slogging, mining laser fielding neophytes (and couple of other things).
But Genestealers in Goliath is bit mixed as if I ever run those then I rather take 20 of those on foot, ambush them and murder the poor sucker that gets in my crosshairs. 80 Str 4 attacks is not a joke.
If the Goliath's guns were assault I'd really rate it. I realise many would consider it a simplification too far - but I wouldn't be shocked if all vehicles treated heavy guns as assault in 9th edition.
But with that said the Goliath is better than most. Its cheap, and if your opponent doesn't kill it you can be stationary from turn 2 onwards and have reasonable (not amazing) firepower. Run over to un-tagged objectives if you need to.
With that said for GS - if you don't go first you risk the transport being blown up in your deployment zone (even if you can play about with blips). If you go first there is still the chance of the transport being blown up and the unit inside being pounded. If you are infantry-focused you are also giving your opponents anti-large guns something to shoot at. 40k doesn't do this as much as certain games, but I feel if you want to be all infantry, be all infantry, and if you want to be all armour, be all armour, a mix of unit types may be what GW want you to take - but tends to be the worst at the actual game.
The lack of chapter tactics feels like a flag - but I think there might be an armoured GSC list with ridgerunners, rockgrinders and infantry in goliaths that might be interesting to play, if not totally competitive.
Yeah, I haven't tried them myself yet, but I'm really liking the idea of Neophyte Squads in Goliath Trucks. They're not amazing on their own, but once your opponent has to deal with units ambushing in turn 2 — assuming the trucks can survive turn 1 — they might add good threat saturation. Two Autocannons, two short-range lascannons, two grenade launchers, plus the small arms — and if they make it within 6", essentially a Russ Battle Cannon — makes a nice little fire support platform. Take the Bladed Cog cult for no heavy weapon penalty for infantry, and add a Alphus for the +1 Priority Target, and everything hits on 3's and 4's while moving to get within Demo Cache range. You could alternatively give them Shotguns and/or Seismic Cannons for dealing with heavy infantry. It's not a distraction carnifex by any means, but when they have to deal with ambushing units on top of a few trucks of Neophytes and whatever else you're bringing, there's going to be a lot of good targets to choose from.
I plan to take 2 trucks of ML/GL Neos and 2 scout sententials to grab Recon first turn. Extra move the sents then move normally gives guaranteed opposite table quarters (min 13" move) trucks are for resilient first turn fire support and to take over 2nd turn when the sents die.
Big question is the 1st turn Return underground from blip then DS gonna be an actual thing? I have an ITC tournament coming in April and this will definitely change my list if it does. Getting 3 units to first turn DS will be game changing. Add summoning to this and a few fast units like bikes and you can have most of your army in the opp's face first turn. Use cheap screaners and summon a patriarch (for fearless) and you can block the enemy in his deployment for the first few turns. Not to mention the damage you can theoretically do if you go for an assault bomb and the opp is caught with his pants down.
EDIT: I am expecting it to me a big NO!! but have been surprised before and this will be my first big ITC tournament.
Timeshadow wrote: I plan to take 2 trucks of ML/GL Neos and 2 scout sententials to grab Recon first turn. Extra move the sents then move normally gives guaranteed opposite table quarters (min 13" move) trucks are for resilient first turn fire support and to take over 2nd turn when the sents die.
Big question is the 1st turn Return underground from blip then DS gonna be an actual thing? I have an ITC tournament coming in April and this will definitely change my list if it does. Getting 3 units to first turn DS will be game changing. Add summoning to this and a few fast units like bikes and you can have most of your army in the opp's face first turn. Use cheap screaners and summon a patriarch (for fearless) and you can block the enemy in his deployment for the first few turns. Not to mention the damage you can theoretically do if you go for an assault bomb and the opp is caught with his pants down.
EDIT: I am expecting it to me a big NO!! but have been surprised before and this will be my first big ITC tournament.
according to GW facebook page from the GW account, it can only be used to put units into reserves for later rounds and has no bearing on 1st turn tactical reserves for matched play.
I know I know some people want to take the brave precedent to say that is a social media page and their official poster is not the official rules source- given the official poster there often says "I will pass this on to the rules people" but instead actually responded is somewhat telling that GW thinks the rule is self evident that it is not a way to deep strike turn 1- much like they made posts on what kind of units can deep strike turn 1 on their social page.
Lord Clinto wrote:Here's a question: Do Bladed Cog models with Heavy Weapons ignore the -1 to hit while moving if they're mounted on a moving goliath?
I don't see any reason why they would not. The open topped rule simply states that the passengers are treated as having moved if the vehicle did, while Cyborgized Hybrids allow the infantry to ignore the standard penalty for moving and shooting with heavy weapons.
Lord Clinto wrote:
And Metamorphs seem like utter garbage compared to regular Hybrids.
While it isn't saying much, the new Metamorphs are infinitely better than their index counterparts. I am actually considering including a couple units in some lists for small assassin squads. Their biggest advantage over Acolytes is that they bring their own buffs with them so they don't need character oversight (they still like it of course). They are also very good fodder for summoning, since their weapons are so specialized compared to Aberrants or Acolytes that being able to tailor for the opponent is a big advantage.
For most builds I'm currently thinking Bonesword + Duel Talons for the leader (both AP and volume) and then do a mix of duel talons and talon + rending claw morphs or a mix of claws and whips. The old claw-morph spam builds of 7th could also be viable under Twisted Helix, since at that point each is base S7 and can be buffed to S9 (still only 1 damage, but wounding a Knight on a 3+ with an otherwise anti-infantry squad is an amusing thought).
Lord Clinto wrote:
How viable do people think putting a mob of Genestealers in a Goliath would be? Tempting target yes, but not terribly so; and would give the GS a little more survivability until the truck is popped.
Could work as part of a greater mechanized list, but you do loose out on Flurry of Claws doing that (isn't hard to loose 1 model to overwatch). My personal thought on the 'stealers is that they are something you want to ambush into a good place early on and then leverage their mobility to get them to their targets. They don't really want to drop in front of the enemy's guns so much as on the flanks where they can hide out of sight/range and converge with the main army.
Timeshadow wrote: I plan to take 2 trucks of ML/GL Neos and 2 scout sententials to grab Recon first turn. Extra move the sents then move normally gives guaranteed opposite table quarters (min 13" move) trucks are for resilient first turn fire support and to take over 2nd turn when the sents die.
Big question is the 1st turn Return underground from blip then DS gonna be an actual thing? I have an ITC tournament coming in April and this will definitely change my list if it does. Getting 3 units to first turn DS will be game changing. Add summoning to this and a few fast units like bikes and you can have most of your army in the opp's face first turn. Use cheap screaners and summon a patriarch (for fearless) and you can block the enemy in his deployment for the first few turns. Not to mention the damage you can theoretically do if you go for an assault bomb and the opp is caught with his pants down.
EDIT: I am expecting it to me a big NO!! but have been surprised before and this will be my first big ITC tournament.
according to GW facebook page from the GW account, it can only be used to put units into reserves for later rounds and has no bearing on 1st turn tactical reserves for matched play.
I know I know some people want to take the brave precedent to say that is a social media page and their official poster is not the official rules source- given the official poster there often says "I will pass this on to the rules people" but instead actually responded is somewhat telling that GW thinks the rule is self evident that it is not a way to deep strike turn 1- much like they made posts on what kind of units can deep strike turn 1 on their social page.
There's a thread on this in YMDC. The FAQ pretty much doubles down on the 1st turn ambush works as intended. There's no other way to interpret the interactions.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The key to it is that the Blip tokens are considered deployed at the start of the game and do not count as reserves.
Though the community group saying otherwise is interesting. Could indicate change in wording coming up.
And before anybody claims FB isn't official...Well actually GW removed that policy away. Remember how da jump etc got OFFICIAL clarification via FB(and before september faq was the ONLY source for that official clarification).
The sprues are piling up. And there's Bitz on the sprues. Nice bitz too. Rock Saws, Drills and Cutters and that.
I can forsee myself buying extra Acolytes so I can deploy a varied arsenal from game to game....
It might be worth it to get a big lot of HeroClix.
Many of the models are of the correct scail and with some head and arm trimming/replacement you can use many of those bitz. A quick paintjob any you have a bunch of dynamic "Super" cultists. :-)
The sprues are piling up. And there's Bitz on the sprues. Nice bitz too. Rock Saws, Drills and Cutters and that.
I can forsee myself buying extra Acolytes so I can deploy a varied arsenal from game to game....
It might be worth it to get a big lot of HeroClix.
Many of the models are of the correct scail and with some head and arm trimming/replacement you can use many of those bitz. A quick paintjob any you have a bunch of dynamic "Super" cultists. :-)
Out of curiosity, why use heroclix over....literally anything else?
They're super duper not to scale, for one thing, and none of them look anything like genestealer cultists...
Lord Clinto wrote:Here's a question: Do Bladed Cog models with Heavy Weapons ignore the -1 to hit while moving if they're mounted on a moving goliath?
I don't see any reason why they would not. The open topped rule simply states that the passengers are treated as having moved if the vehicle did, while Cyborgized Hybrids allow the infantry to ignore the standard penalty for moving and shooting with heavy weapons.
Okay, so it's not treated like an aura ability then; which wouldn't affect embarked units. Thanks
Page 111 – Lying in Wait
Add the following two sentences:
‘Any models that disembark from a Transport that was set
up in this way cannot make a charge move this turn. This
Stratagem cannot be used during the first battle round.’
Am I missing something, or does this not disallow the "reveal from blip Lying in Wait trick"? How do you reveal a unit from a blip not on battle round 1?
the_scotsman wrote: Page 111 – Lying in Wait
Add the following two sentences:
‘Any models that disembark from a Transport that was set
up in this way cannot make a charge move this turn. This
Stratagem cannot be used during the first battle round.’
Am I missing something, or does this not disallow the "reveal from blip Lying in Wait trick"? How do you reveal a unit from a blip not on battle round 1?
Correct. You can’t use lying in wait on turn 1 to take a unit that was a blip and say “oh by the way HELLO!”
the_scotsman wrote: Page 111 – Lying in Wait
Add the following two sentences:
‘Any models that disembark from a Transport that was set
up in this way cannot make a charge move this turn. This
Stratagem cannot be used during the first battle round.’
Am I missing something, or does this not disallow the "reveal from blip Lying in Wait trick"? How do you reveal a unit from a blip not on battle round 1?
That's specifically what they were nipping in the butt. It was pretty clear the intent was never top teleport a blip across the table, at least to anyone in my local. What really blows is now you cannot summon flamer dudes and get them in range first turn, so thats one less tool to kill screens in our own book. They should have just restricted it to units arriving from reserve/reinforcements or whatever.
the_scotsman wrote: Page 111 – Lying in Wait
Add the following two sentences:
‘Any models that disembark from a Transport that was set
up in this way cannot make a charge move this turn. This
Stratagem cannot be used during the first battle round.’
Am I missing something, or does this not disallow the "reveal from blip Lying in Wait trick"? How do you reveal a unit from a blip not on battle round 1?
That's specifically what they were nipping in the butt. It was pretty clear the intent was never top teleport a blip across the table, at least to anyone in my local. What really blows is now you cannot summon flamer dudes and get them in range first turn, so thats one less tool to kill screens in our own book. They should have just restricted it to units arriving from reserve/reinforcements or whatever.
That's a different Stratagem than They Came from Below.
With the recent FAQ I start using 'the rule of 4' for my GSC-army.
1: I would always take 3x20 brood brothers + 1x10 brood brothers in a GSC battalion and 2x tempestor primes + command rod in a brood brother detachment.
Thats 240 lasgun shots with orders and the 10 brood brothers can 'move move move' to an objective after that.
2: I always use 160+ points for summoning. If needed I could summon 2x20 extra brood brothers or other close combat units. To flexible not to use. Think about surrounding a knight to make sure it cannot assault something else. Maybe I would use 'vox' casters to give that unit an extra 'move move move' order first turn. A brood brother battalion gives my army 3 command points and that's still nice.
3: 'Mental onslaught' is in full effect and to good not to facilitate it. +1 leadership WLT for the patriarch, clavamus +1 leadership, Broodsurge relic +1 leadership and Astra psychic power 'terrify' for a -2 leadership.
4: I got a nice bunch of acolyte hybrids, so no way I'am not using the broodsurge detachment. Still struggling if I should go 'rusted claw' or 'emperor of the..'.
Is it just me or does anyone else find themselves constantly wanting to dump stuff out of their lists to fit more Acolytes in? They shred everything but die like flies, and without Numbers Beyond Counting you can't replenish them as readily as you could in 7th, so it seems inefficient not to just bring industrial quantities of them.
Half a tonne of Acolytes, quarter-tonne of Neophytes with Webbers, a Patriarch or two, three Maguses and a Primus is what I always seem to end up with whenever I try to build lists. What am I missing about the other stuff aside from resilience?
Budzerker wrote:So IF we can ambush 3 units turn 1 after the faq... what units is everybody thinking?
I mean, anything but the flamer bomb is viable, it's just going to vary from game to game. Maybe you can get a cheeky charge off on a knight and so you chuck a big unit of 4AE acolytes with saws (I prefer them over abberants in pretty much every case) and a shouty boy over for a 7-d6" charge. Maybe you summon a unit, double run some krarken stealers, and deepstrike up a couple of beefy units and hit the whole front on T1 before they've had the chance to move their screens forward and lock them in their deployment zone for the game.
You could even just throw some BB chaff into their face to slow them down and prevent them from maneuvering. Maybe they even clear some screens while they're at it.
shogun wrote:With the recent FAQ I start using 'the rule of 4' for my GSC-army.
1: I would always take 3x20 brood brothers + 1x10 brood brothers in a GSC battalion and 2x tempestor primes + command rod in a brood brother detachment.
Thats 240 lasgun shots with orders and the 10 brood brothers can 'move move move' to an objective after that.
2: I always use 160+ points for summoning. If needed I could summon 2x20 extra brood brothers or other close combat units. To flexible not to use. Think about surrounding a knight to make sure it cannot assault something else. Maybe I would use 'vox' casters to give that unit an extra 'move move move' order first turn. A brood brother battalion gives my army 3 command points and that's still nice.
3: 'Mental onslaught' is in full effect and to good not to facilitate it. +1 leadership WLT for the patriarch, clavamus +1 leadership, Broodsurge relic +1 leadership and Astra psychic power 'terrify' for a -2 leadership.
4: I got a nice bunch of acolyte hybrids, so no way I'am not using the broodsurge detachment. Still struggling if I should go 'rusted claw' or 'emperor of the..'.
I prefer acolytes as my workhorse unit, so I'd do 4AE for the charge bonus. You want to stack a few bonus inches onto that ds charge (doubly important with the +1 to wound broodsurge strat; that and a pretty easy to come by Str buff and you're wounding knights on 4s with the normal guys in the unit), even with the reroll from the wl trait.
the_scotsman wrote: Page 111 – Lying in Wait
Add the following two sentences:
‘Any models that disembark from a Transport that was set
up in this way cannot make a charge move this turn. This
Stratagem cannot be used during the first battle round.’
Am I missing something, or does this not disallow the "reveal from blip Lying in Wait trick"? How do you reveal a unit from a blip not on battle round 1?
That's specifically what they were nipping in the butt. It was pretty clear the intent was never top teleport a blip across the table, at least to anyone in my local. What really blows is now you cannot summon flamer dudes and get them in range first turn, so thats one less tool to kill screens in our own book. They should have just restricted it to units arriving from reserve/reinforcements or whatever.
That's a different Stratagem than They Came from Below.
It stops the flamer bomb from being within range of the hand flamers (6"), so you can't combo the two strats to pop up next to them and flame them twice. You could still move up and hope to roll a 4+ to get within flamer range, but then you risk not being within charge range after the casualties are taken out.
the_scotsman wrote: Page 111 – Lying in Wait
Add the following two sentences:
‘Any models that disembark from a Transport that was set
up in this way cannot make a charge move this turn. This
Stratagem cannot be used during the first battle round.’
Am I missing something, or does this not disallow the "reveal from blip Lying in Wait trick"? How do you reveal a unit from a blip not on battle round 1?
That's specifically what they were nipping in the butt. It was pretty clear the intent was never top teleport a blip across the table, at least to anyone in my local. What really blows is now you cannot summon flamer dudes and get them in range first turn, so thats one less tool to kill screens in our own book. They should have just restricted it to units arriving from reserve/reinforcements or whatever.
That's a different Stratagem than They Came from Below.
Your clearly unaware of how some folks were using lying in wait, but that's fine because you probably read it like it was intended.
Some folks were using it on transports that were blipped in there first turn in order to "teleport" the transport 3.1" away from the enemy.
the_scotsman wrote: Page 111 – Lying in Wait
Add the following two sentences:
‘Any models that disembark from a Transport that was set
up in this way cannot make a charge move this turn. This
Stratagem cannot be used during the first battle round.’
Am I missing something, or does this not disallow the "reveal from blip Lying in Wait trick"? How do you reveal a unit from a blip not on battle round 1?
That's specifically what they were nipping in the butt. It was pretty clear the intent was never top teleport a blip across the table, at least to anyone in my local. What really blows is now you cannot summon flamer dudes and get them in range first turn, so thats one less tool to kill screens in our own book. They should have just restricted it to units arriving from reserve/reinforcements or whatever.
That's a different Stratagem than They Came from Below.
Your clearly unaware of how some folks were using lying in wait, but that's fine because you probably read it like it was intended.
Some folks were using it on transports that were blipped in there first turn in order to "teleport" the transport 3.1" away from the enemy.
I'll admit, I did that in my test game because of how clearly they pointed out that models arriving from blips were "coming on the board as Reinforcements" - compared to most of the other crazy bs that they decided not to FAQ out, it felt pretty intended.
But, I guess it wasn't, and the Sanctus nuking Rubric squads off the board with a single shot apparently is. Such is life with GW.
BBAP wrote: Is it just me or does anyone else find themselves constantly wanting to dump stuff out of their lists to fit more Acolytes in? They shred everything but die like flies, and without Numbers Beyond Counting you can't replenish them as readily as you could in 7th, so it seems inefficient not to just bring industrial quantities of them.
Half a tonne of Acolytes, quarter-tonne of Neophytes with Webbers, a Patriarch or two, three Maguses and a Primus is what I always seem to end up with whenever I try to build lists. What am I missing about the other stuff aside from resilience?
I also got lot's of acolytes but for me it's the other way around. I'am starting to ditch more acolytes for broodbrothers. But apart from that I still want too test aan almost full acolyte army with minimum HQ's.
3 rusted claw battalions,
HQ: 2 patriarch and 4 iconwards,
+3 cheap brood brothers to claim the home objectives,
200 points for summoning,
one acolyte unit 8 rock saws upgrade,
aaaand that leaves me with 160 acolytes apart from summoning.
5x20 start as *bliebs* but 3 units can be pulled in ambush and the other two can 'return in the shadows' turn 1 and 2. Just simply want to know if I could make this genestealer light blender armylist work..
If folks are going heavy into the acolytes, then I think the Vigilus Formation is mandatory. You get to make an Acolyte Icon Bearer a bonus Warlord, then give him the Vigilus trait. You have access to the +1 to Wound stratagem. If you go Twisted Helix and the Strength Relic, you will be able to kill Knights with a 20 man unit of naked Acolytes. What is not to love about that?
I think you want to take the Primus and Clamavus to drop down with the Acolytes, and since you have those two, might as well take the Nexos (since the Primus and Clamavus give him a 5+ to regen CPs).
I also think that if you are going to get the "+1 LD to all units in 6 inches" Warlord Trait, you are better off giving it to the Primus (or a Magus,) then on the Patriarch.
the_scotsman wrote: Page 111 – Lying in Wait
Add the following two sentences:
‘Any models that disembark from a Transport that was set
up in this way cannot make a charge move this turn. This
Stratagem cannot be used during the first battle round.’
Am I missing something, or does this not disallow the "reveal from blip Lying in Wait trick"? How do you reveal a unit from a blip not on battle round 1?
That's specifically what they were nipping in the butt. It was pretty clear the intent was never top teleport a blip across the table, at least to anyone in my local. What really blows is now you cannot summon flamer dudes and get them in range first turn, so thats one less tool to kill screens in our own book. They should have just restricted it to units arriving from reserve/reinforcements or whatever.
That's a different Stratagem than They Came from Below.
Your clearly unaware of how some folks were using lying in wait, but that's fine because you probably read it like it was intended.
Some folks were using it on transports that were blipped in there first turn in order to "teleport" the transport 3.1" away from the enemy.
I'll admit, I did that in my test game because of how clearly they pointed out that models arriving from blips were "coming on the board as Reinforcements" - compared to most of the other crazy bs that they decided not to FAQ out, it felt pretty intended.
But, I guess it wasn't, and the Sanctus nuking Rubric squads off the board with a single shot apparently is. Such is life with GW.
Hey, I agree of all the things it wasn't even close to as silly as all the stuff they missed So I wasn't trying to make you or anyone who did it feel bad. To me it just seemed like an obvious exploit/hole, but as you just said, like 5 other things were worse and ignored. I have no idea how I will play the sanctus vs T-sons because there is no way I am punishing some poor bastard for actually fielding rubrics.
Jrandom wrote: If folks are going heavy into the acolytes, then I think the Vigilus Formation is mandatory. You get to make an Acolyte Icon Bearer a bonus Warlord, then give him the Vigilus trait. You have access to the +1 to Wound stratagem. If you go Twisted Helix and the Strength Relic, you will be able to kill Knights with a 20 man unit of naked Acolytes. What is not to love about that?
I think you want to take the Primus and Clamavus to drop down with the Acolytes, and since you have those two, might as well take the Nexos (since the Primus and Clamavus give him a 5+ to regen CPs).
I also think that if you are going to get the "+1 LD to all units in 6 inches" Warlord Trait, you are better off giving it to the Primus (or a Magus,) then on the Patriarch.
The only reason I see for taking the +1 LD trait on the Patriarch is if you're attempting the Onslaught bomb (which I feel is a trap that'll fail almost as often as it succeeds the second people figure out how to screen it). The Patriarch is better served by the melee-focused traits IMO. I'm also going to have to agree with Red Corsair on the Neophyte/BB debate. Both have a place in the army and a lot of the lists I've seen seem to be over-investing in BB. The versatility of Neos is their greatest strength.
I am actually starting to make some lists using truck spam.
60 acolytes all mounted in trucks is only 852pts. I think the best units to ambush in are definitely brood bros and neophytes and rushing up one side after using decoys means I can drop my guys in turn 2 after moving everything forward again and shoot holes in any screens. The trucks can be used to soak overwatch.
You have to consider it when a truck is only 2 points more then 10 acolytes. It gets them forward and it gives them protection. I'd definitely summon in 20 BB's turn 1 to chain across their deployment zone, along with some sentinels I can easily block them back. I'll have to test it and get back to everyone. I have a feeling massed transports is being overlooked.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gordoape wrote: I have to agree, Acolytes just seem like one of the best units considering how much mileage we get out of buffs and how good they are on their own.
There good for sure, but they die super easily. I lost 45 acolytes + 40 neophytes to a death watch soup list in 2 turns. I'll admit my list was lacking as I was trying out all the new stuff, but that still taught me just how easily we can be shot off the table. That's was with me trying to avoid half his army. With orks and guard in the meta I am seeing a ton of lists (ITC) that will flat out mulch GEQ. Even ~200 guys will get smoked in a 5 turn game, in some cases less.
That's why I think transports are worth considering. You can't just take a couple though, you need 6-9 at least.
The only reason I see for taking the +1 LD trait on the Patriarch is if you're attempting the Onslaught bomb (which I feel is a trap that'll fail almost as often as it succeeds the second people figure out how to screen it). The Patriarch is better served by the melee-focused traits IMO.
The Primus (w/ +1LD WLT) and the Clam can both just be within 6” of the Patriarch, to get him up to 12 LD. You don’t have to put the trait on the Patriarch. If you want to go “all in,” then I guess you want to get the Acolyte Icon Bearer relic for another +1 LD (for a total of 13 LD on the patriarch.)
Jrandom wrote: If folks are going heavy into the acolytes, then I think the Vigilus Formation is mandatory. You get to make an Acolyte Icon Bearer a bonus Warlord, then give him the Vigilus trait. You have access to the +1 to Wound stratagem. If you go Twisted Helix and the Strength Relic, you will be able to kill Knights with a 20 man unit of naked Acolytes. What is not to love about that?
True, but I think I rather pick rusted claw for that +1 save and let the rock saws deal with knights.
I think you want to take the Primus and Clamavus to drop down with the Acolytes, and since you have those two, might as well take the Nexos (since the Primus and Clamavus give him a 5+ to regen CPs).
I also think that if you are going to get the "+1 LD to all units in 6 inches" Warlord Trait, you are better off giving it to the Primus (or a Magus,) then on the Patriarch.
Yep, but clamavus and nexos also cost 105 points, if I should add a magus instead of a simple iconward than thats another 40 points. Thats 140+ points that also could be another 20 acolyte unit. Make it 'rusted claw' and keep it within range of an iconward and you got a 4+save with 6+ feel no pain.
Red Corsair wrote: . Even ~200 guys will get smoked in a 5 turn game, in some cases less. That's why I think transports are worth considering. You can't just take a couple though, you need 6-9 at least.
If you are interested in some cheap vehicles to draw fire from the trucks, you should check out the IG’s Griffon and Carnadon. The Griffon can be in units of 3, has T7 & 11 Wounds. With Heavy Bolter & Heavy Stubber, it will run you 87 pts. The Carnadon with 5 Multi-Lasers should run you 85 pts, (but GW missed lowering the cost of the Twin-Linked Multi-Laser when they lowered the cost of the Multi-Laser in CA18, by 1/2.)
Reading the rules for the griffon just makes me sad that the "heavy mortar" we got on the achilles is a glorified heavy bolter.
I'll just have to remember the achilles, jackals, biophagus, locus, and new magus sculpt for the next time someone brings out the whole "GW makes the new models OP so they can sell more of them" chestnut
shogun wrote: True, but I think I rather pick rusted claw for that +1 save and let the rock saws deal with knights.
Make it 'rusted claw' and keep it within range of an iconward and you got a 4+save with 6+ feel no pain.
I think Rusted Claw is great. They have one of the best WL traits with Entropic Touch (all units in 6” who roll a 6 to Wound get +1 AP in the fight phase).
Bladed Cog has an improved version of “Death to the False Emperor” as their Stratagem, and 4++ if you go for either the Void Shield Generator or the Skyshield Landing Pad.
the_scotsman wrote: Reading the rules for the griffon just makes me sad that the "heavy mortar" we got on the achilles is a glorified heavy bolter.
I'll just have to remember the achilles, jackals, biophagus, locus, and new magus sculpt for the next time someone brings out the whole "GW makes the new models OP so they can sell more of them" chestnut
From experience, they'll just say "well, that's just because GW doesn't understand their own rules!"
the_scotsman wrote: Reading the rules for the griffon just makes me sad that the "heavy mortar" we got on the achilles is a glorified heavy bolter.
I'll just have to remember the achilles, jackals, biophagus, locus, and new magus sculpt for the next time someone brings out the whole "GW makes the new models OP so they can sell more of them" chestnut
Don't forget the hellhound compared to the rock grinder. Same cost, but the hellhound has access to track guards, a flat lout better primary weapon and the secondary is a HF over a HS. We get taxed on that things transport ability, only it can't hold anything worth a damn besides maybe 6 abberants, which puts a huge bullseye on it. It only gets worse when you look at how poor the cache of demo charges works. I have to pay 10 pts AND fill the tank with something that can't shoot itself and doesn't want to be on the table or trying to assault. I can't think of anything to ride in it to make the demos worth while. If you put 5 acolytes in it your essentially adding +45pts to it's cost for a 6" range battle canon
For ITC missions I am really struggling to make a list that doesn't lose the points race. In order to make the list durable you can't avoid bleeding secondaries.
the_scotsman wrote: Reading the rules for the griffon just makes me sad that the "heavy mortar" we got on the achilles is a glorified heavy bolter.
I'll just have to remember the achilles, jackals, biophagus, locus, and new magus sculpt for the next time someone brings out the whole "GW makes the new models OP so they can sell more of them" chestnut
Don't forget the hellhound compared to the rock grinder. Same cost, but the hellhound has access to track guards, a flat lout better primary weapon and the secondary is a HF over a HS. We get taxed on that things transport ability, only it can't hold anything worth a damn besides maybe 6 abberants, which puts a huge bullseye on it. It only gets worse when you look at how poor the cache of demo charges works. I have to pay 10 pts AND fill the tank with something that can't shoot itself and doesn't want to be on the table or trying to assault. I can't think of anything to ride in it to make the demos worth while. If you put 5 acolytes in it your essentially adding +45pts to it's cost for a 6" range battle canon
For ITC missions I am really struggling to make a list that doesn't lose the points race. In order to make the list durable you can't avoid bleeding secondaries.
I mean...we get taxed on it because it does melee...
In a competitive game, yeah no. Goliaths are garbage. As are anything that's not flat out alpha strike melee or alpha strike shooting (unless it's a CHARACTER, the only form of durability with any meaning in a tournament). Nothing is durable enough to withstand the firehose that is your average tournament level gunline list, so you'd better just frontload everything into the damage it does the turn it arrives. Rockgrinders can't make their points back the instant they show up on the battlefield, therefore they are unusable trash.
In casual games I have fun with my rockgrinder. It at least does fun stuff.
I think the goliath demolishing vehicle is great in melee. That weapon profile my tyranid army would kill for. Just think of it a melee distraction carnifex.
Alright guys, here's a batrep from a game I had just after the codex release against Necrons. This was mostly to try out the small GSC army I had just assembled, and I added in some nids to make up the points, and to have something to do in the first turn!
Spoiler:
Maelstrom of War; Strategic Gamble; 2000pts
Genestealer Cults Batallion – Cult of the Four-Armed Emperor Patriarch w/ Crouchling
Magus
Primus
3x10 Brood Brothers
Clamavus
Kelermorph w/ Oppressor’s Bane
Batallion – Cult of the Four-Armed Emperor Iconward w/ Banner of Cult Ascendant
Abominant
2x10 Brood Brothers
20 Acolytes w/ 8 rock saw
10 Aberrants w/ 4 hammers & 6 picks
Batallion – Kraken Swarmlord
Neurothrope
2x15 Genestealers w/ 3 acid maw
3 Rippers
Deployment – Hammer & Anvil - GSC to the east, Necrons to the west.
The Swarmlord deploys centrally, flanked by genestealers on both sides and the neurothrope just behind. The rippers deploy to the south. The aberrants and four squads of brood brothers are placed in cult ambush, with all the others underground.
One unit of destroyers and a cryptek deploy in the northern corner, screened by two units of immortals. Tomb blades deploy in the southern corner, with destroyers to the east and north and Imotekh and a cryptek between. The final squad of immortals screens.
Turn 1 – GC They Came From Below is used to put aberrants and two squads of brood brothers underground. One unit of brood brothers is revealed in the north of the deployment zone, and moves back into ruins to claim objective 5. The next unit of brood brothers is revealed on the southern counter, and moves forward onto objective 6.
The genestealers to the north opportunistic advance towards the Necrons’ northern corner. The Swarmlord advances to keep pace behind. The southern genestealer unit and neurothrope advance into central ruins. The Swarmlord commands the genestealers in the north to move again.
The northern genestealer unit charge the nearby immortal units, taking seven casualties in overwatch and killing two. They take objective 1 and wrap an immortal from the northernmost unit. 2cp is spent to auto-pass morale.
2VP – Claim dominion; 1VP – Secure objective 6
3VP – Total
Turn 1 – Necrons To the north, the destroyers advance to get the Swarmlord in range, and the immortals remain in combat after regaining one model each. The central destroyers advance to target Swarmlord as well.
Tomb blades advance up the southern flank, and the southernmost destroyers move around Imotekh to screen and fill deployment zone to prevent deep striking. The southern immortals stay put, screening the characters and holding objective 4.
The destroyers in the centre target the Swarmlord, attempting to use Annihilation Protocols, but A Plan Generations in the Making is used to stop this, and no damage makes it through. The northern unit also targets him, but with only two models in range it has no effect.
The tomb blades target the genestealers in the centre, killing all but three. In the fight phase, the immortals take the northern genestealers down to four models.
0VP
Turn 2 – GC The remaining three genestealers in the centre advance opportunistically to claim objective 4. The Swarmlord moves down the northern flank towards the destroyers. The neurothrope advances up the centre to the top of the ruin.
The cult reinforcements arrive in force. The kelermorph is revealed to have been Lying in Wait and appears in the north behind the cryptek. A squad emerges on objective 2, with another two squads just ahead of them. The magus appears on the ruin next to the neurothrope, and all the other characters deploy at the base of the ruins. The aberrants appear in front of the destroyers. The acolyte squad arrives just to the south, pulling off A Perfect Ambush to move 3” closer to their prey.
The neurothrope casts The Horror on the destroyers protecting Imotekh, and smites the other squad. The magus casts Mass Hypnosis on the tomb blades, and the patriarch Mind Controls a nearby destroyer, shooting at Imotekh but failing to cause any damage. The Swarmlord fails his own smite, and then casts Onslaught on himself.
The brood brothers to the north open up on the destroyers, killing one, and the acolytes down a tomb blade. The Swarmlord allows himself to move again, closing the distance on the destroyers. The kelermorph downs the cryptek, who stays alive with Resurrection Protocols.
The aberrants make their charge on the central destroyers, and the abominant follows them in. The acolytes charge into the tomb blades, and the Swarmlord charges the northern destroyers.
In the fight phase, the aberrants and acolytes handily destroy their targets, while the Swarmlord kills all but one of the destroyers and consolidates into the nearby immortals. The genestealers kill one immortal, but lose one in return.
3VP – Behind enemy lines; 5VP – Domination
11VP – Total
Turn 2 – Necrons The immortals in the north regain a model each. The nearby destroyers regain three of their number, and hop over the Swarmlord to prevent him from falling back. The immortals in the south move to get a target on the acolytes, and the destroyers move round to get a shot on the aberrants and protect Imotekh. The Stormlord himself moves towards objective 4.
The immortals in the south open up on the acolytes, killing all but eight. The destroyers fire on the aberrants, killing seven. The destroyers on the northern flank split their fire, finishing off the nearby genestealers and killing another two aberrants, and the adjacent immortals kill the final one.
The unengaged immortals in the north then charge the Kelermorph and the Swarmlord to lock him in combat. In the south, the three genestealers on objective 4 are charged by the immortals, destroyers, cryptek and Imotekh, as the warlord attempts to secure his priority orders. Two of the genestealers are killed, and in the north, the Swarmlord takes two wounds, killing five immortals in return. One more dies to morale.
3VP – Mission-critical objective; 8VP – Priority orders received (doubled for strategic gamble)
11VP – Total
Turn 3 – GC In the south, the acolytes move around the terrain towards the immortals, with the primus and iconward in support. The patriarch and abominant approach the destroyers on the other side. The neurothrope and magus advance from the ruin. In the north, the two squads of brood brothers move up on the destroyers.
The Swarmlord unleashes smite and Psychic Scream to try and free himself, killing all but one of the immortals in combat with him. The neurothrope casts The Horror on Imotekh and smites the destroyers. The magus casts Might from Beyond on the patriarch. The patriarch himself casts Psionic Blast on Imotekh, dropping a wound. He then casts Mental Onslaught on the Necron warlord, dropping all his remaining wounds and killing him. Imotekh uses Resurrection Protocols to survive on one wound.
The brood brothers shoot a couple of wounds off the destroyers in the north. The Swarmlord uses his Hive Commander ability to move himself out of combat. The Kelermorph fires his pistols into the immortals in combat with him, killing all but one.
In the south, the immortals and destroyers are still engaged with the last genestealer on objective 4, so cannot overwatch as the patriarch and abominant charge the destroyers, and the acolytes go into the immortals. Both brood brothers squads make it into the destroyers in the north despite casualties on overwatch, and the Swarmlord follows them in, tagging the last remaining immortal as well.
He finishes off the immortals and all but one of the destroyers, as the brood brothers swing to no avail. In the south, the patriarch and abominant take out the destroyers, and the acolytes make short work of the immortals. The lone genestealer on objective 4 swings at Imotekh, and manages to kill him for good.
2VP – Secure objective 3 (x2 for strategic gamble); 1VP – Scour the skies; 1VP – Slay the Warlord
15VP - Total
Turn 3 – Necrons The destroyers in the north reanimate four models, but only one can be placed. They fall back from the Swarmlord to a safe distance atop the ruins with the cryptek. The immortals regain five of their number, and move to target the characters to the south. The cryptek in the south moves towards the Patriarch, hoping to claim the warlord’s head.
The immortals kill the Patriarch’s familiar and take a wound from him. The destroyers in the ruins fire on the Swarmlord, taking a wound. The cryptek fires ineffectually at the patriarch, then charges in. His attacks cause no damage, and the patriarch slays him in return.
0VP
11VP – Total
At the end of turn 3, behind in victory points and with very little left, the Necrons concede. The game ends 15-11 to the Genestealer Cults!
I got lucky with the Swarmlord surviving his first shooting phase, as he then proceeded to cause havok on my opponent's flank for the entire game. the acolyte bomb is devastating with full rock saws, but will die like guardsmen the minute that they receive any attention. The aberrants are great. They really do need buffing to make that charge and to counteract the negatives from the hammers, but if they're supported right they're an incredible hammer. With them being so scary, your opponent will be tempted to use heavy weapons on them, and this is the real trap as their damage reduction combined with their FNP makes multi-damage weapons so inefficient against them. I feel that they will be easy enough prey for your standard anti-infantry weapons, but then your opponent has to choose between them and the acolytes.
Having multiple squads of BB/neophytes dropping in will be so important to claiming objectives. You don't want your acolytes or aberrants sitting around in the open, and your characters all want to be front and center supporting your melee dudes. I will definitely look into taking a batallion of Rusted Claw for 3+ save neophytes in cover.
Mental Onslaught is stupid good. I had only a 3LD difference (Inspiring Leader, Clamavus, the Horror), but this still does 6 mortal wounds on average against a base LD of 10, and 12 against base LD 9. I know everyone is getting giddy about one-shotting knights, but being able to melt almost any character's brain from 18" away with minimal investment (I'd be taking the Neurothrope and Clamavus anyway) is such a useful tool.
Finally, the nids did what I expected, with the genestealers dying just as easily as they always do. I do feel like there is potential for nids to contribute a lot to a GSC army, though. Depending on deployment, two full units of genestealers can be in combat turn 1. They can clear screens, keep your opponent pushed back, and then fall out of combat and further into their lines to open the way for your t2 drop.
I will also be looking into how we can best use the t1 deepstrike, if the intent of They Came From Below is made clear. The opportunity to throw a squad of aberrants into your opponent t1, with a Primus and Abominant is too good to pass up. That said, I'm not expecting it to be ruled in our favour.
I have another report coming with a similar list against pure Custodes - all infantry and bikes. Place your bets now!
It would be better if you could Spoiler tag the Battle report in your post. To save on page room and so people don't have to scroll to much to find what they want to read
Odrankt wrote: It would be better if you could Spoiler tag the Battle report in your post. To save on page room and so people don't have to scroll to much to find what they want to read
Assuming You can get MfB on a unit of 10 Helix Abberants which is better versus Knights that can use Rotate Ion Shields, Picks/Claws or Hammers? MathHammer seems to indicate that the Hammers are 70 points more expensive, only marginally better versus Knights and significantly worse versus MEQ and Light Armor.
Alright guys, here's a batrep from a game I had just after the codex release against Necrons. This was mostly to try out the small GSC army I had just assembled, and I added in some nids to make up the points, and to have something to do in the first turn!
Spoiler:
Maelstrom of War; Strategic Gamble; 2000pts
Genestealer Cults Batallion – Cult of the Four-Armed Emperor Patriarch w/ Crouchling
Magus
Primus
3x10 Brood Brothers
Clamavus
Kelermorph w/ Oppressor’s Bane
Batallion – Cult of the Four-Armed Emperor Iconward w/ Banner of Cult Ascendant
Abominant
2x10 Brood Brothers
20 Acolytes w/ 8 rock saw
10 Aberrants w/ 4 hammers & 6 picks
Batallion – Kraken Swarmlord
Neurothrope
2x15 Genestealers w/ 3 acid maw
3 Rippers
Deployment – Hammer & Anvil - GSC to the east, Necrons to the west.
The Swarmlord deploys centrally, flanked by genestealers on both sides and the neurothrope just behind. The rippers deploy to the south. The aberrants and four squads of brood brothers are placed in cult ambush, with all the others underground.
One unit of destroyers and a cryptek deploy in the northern corner, screened by two units of immortals. Tomb blades deploy in the southern corner, with destroyers to the east and north and Imotekh and a cryptek between. The final squad of immortals screens.
Turn 1 – GC They Came From Below is used to put aberrants and two squads of brood brothers underground. One unit of brood brothers is revealed in the north of the deployment zone, and moves back into ruins to claim objective 5. The next unit of brood brothers is revealed on the southern counter, and moves forward onto objective 6.
The genestealers to the north opportunistic advance towards the Necrons’ northern corner. The Swarmlord advances to keep pace behind. The southern genestealer unit and neurothrope advance into central ruins. The Swarmlord commands the genestealers in the north to move again.
The northern genestealer unit charge the nearby immortal units, taking seven casualties in overwatch and killing two. They take objective 1 and wrap an immortal from the northernmost unit. 2cp is spent to auto-pass morale.
2VP – Claim dominion; 1VP – Secure objective 6
3VP – Total
Turn 1 – Necrons To the north, the destroyers advance to get the Swarmlord in range, and the immortals remain in combat after regaining one model each. The central destroyers advance to target Swarmlord as well.
Tomb blades advance up the southern flank, and the southernmost destroyers move around Imotekh to screen and fill deployment zone to prevent deep striking. The southern immortals stay put, screening the characters and holding objective 4.
The destroyers in the centre target the Swarmlord, attempting to use Annihilation Protocols, but A Plan Generations in the Making is used to stop this, and no damage makes it through. The northern unit also targets him, but with only two models in range it has no effect.
The tomb blades target the genestealers in the centre, killing all but three. In the fight phase, the immortals take the northern genestealers down to four models.
0VP
Turn 2 – GC The remaining three genestealers in the centre advance opportunistically to claim objective 4. The Swarmlord moves down the northern flank towards the destroyers. The neurothrope advances up the centre to the top of the ruin.
The cult reinforcements arrive in force. The kelermorph is revealed to have been Lying in Wait and appears in the north behind the cryptek. A squad emerges on objective 2, with another two squads just ahead of them. The magus appears on the ruin next to the neurothrope, and all the other characters deploy at the base of the ruins. The aberrants appear in front of the destroyers. The acolyte squad arrives just to the south, pulling off A Perfect Ambush to move 3” closer to their prey.
The neurothrope casts The Horror on the destroyers protecting Imotekh, and smites the other squad. The magus casts Mass Hypnosis on the tomb blades, and the patriarch Mind Controls a nearby destroyer, shooting at Imotekh but failing to cause any damage. The Swarmlord fails his own smite, and then casts Onslaught on himself.
The brood brothers to the north open up on the destroyers, killing one, and the acolytes down a tomb blade. The Swarmlord allows himself to move again, closing the distance on the destroyers. The kelermorph downs the cryptek, who stays alive with Resurrection Protocols.
The aberrants make their charge on the central destroyers, and the abominant follows them in. The acolytes charge into the tomb blades, and the Swarmlord charges the northern destroyers.
In the fight phase, the aberrants and acolytes handily destroy their targets, while the Swarmlord kills all but one of the destroyers and consolidates into the nearby immortals. The genestealers kill one immortal, but lose one in return.
3VP – Behind enemy lines; 5VP – Domination
11VP – Total
Turn 2 – Necrons The immortals in the north regain a model each. The nearby destroyers regain three of their number, and hop over the Swarmlord to prevent him from falling back. The immortals in the south move to get a target on the acolytes, and the destroyers move round to get a shot on the aberrants and protect Imotekh. The Stormlord himself moves towards objective 4.
The immortals in the south open up on the acolytes, killing all but eight. The destroyers fire on the aberrants, killing seven. The destroyers on the northern flank split their fire, finishing off the nearby genestealers and killing another two aberrants, and the adjacent immortals kill the final one.
The unengaged immortals in the north then charge the Kelermorph and the Swarmlord to lock him in combat. In the south, the three genestealers on objective 4 are charged by the immortals, destroyers, cryptek and Imotekh, as the warlord attempts to secure his priority orders. Two of the genestealers are killed, and in the north, the Swarmlord takes two wounds, killing five immortals in return. One more dies to morale.
3VP – Mission-critical objective; 8VP – Priority orders received (doubled for strategic gamble)
11VP – Total
Turn 3 – GC In the south, the acolytes move around the terrain towards the immortals, with the primus and iconward in support. The patriarch and abominant approach the destroyers on the other side. The neurothrope and magus advance from the ruin. In the north, the two squads of brood brothers move up on the destroyers.
The Swarmlord unleashes smite and Psychic Scream to try and free himself, killing all but one of the immortals in combat with him. The neurothrope casts The Horror on Imotekh and smites the destroyers. The magus casts Might from Beyond on the patriarch. The patriarch himself casts Psionic Blast on Imotekh, dropping a wound. He then casts Mental Onslaught on the Necron warlord, dropping all his remaining wounds and killing him. Imotekh uses Resurrection Protocols to survive on one wound.
The brood brothers shoot a couple of wounds off the destroyers in the north. The Swarmlord uses his Hive Commander ability to move himself out of combat. The Kelermorph fires his pistols into the immortals in combat with him, killing all but one.
In the south, the immortals and destroyers are still engaged with the last genestealer on objective 4, so cannot overwatch as the patriarch and abominant charge the destroyers, and the acolytes go into the immortals. Both brood brothers squads make it into the destroyers in the north despite casualties on overwatch, and the Swarmlord follows them in, tagging the last remaining immortal as well.
He finishes off the immortals and all but one of the destroyers, as the brood brothers swing to no avail. In the south, the patriarch and abominant take out the destroyers, and the acolytes make short work of the immortals. The lone genestealer on objective 4 swings at Imotekh, and manages to kill him for good.
2VP – Secure objective 3 (x2 for strategic gamble); 1VP – Scour the skies; 1VP – Slay the Warlord
15VP - Total
Turn 3 – Necrons The destroyers in the north reanimate four models, but only one can be placed. They fall back from the Swarmlord to a safe distance atop the ruins with the cryptek. The immortals regain five of their number, and move to target the characters to the south. The cryptek in the south moves towards the Patriarch, hoping to claim the warlord’s head.
The immortals kill the Patriarch’s familiar and take a wound from him. The destroyers in the ruins fire on the Swarmlord, taking a wound. The cryptek fires ineffectually at the patriarch, then charges in. His attacks cause no damage, and the patriarch slays him in return.
0VP
11VP – Total
At the end of turn 3, behind in victory points and with very little left, the Necrons concede. The game ends 15-11 to the Genestealer Cults!
I got lucky with the Swarmlord surviving his first shooting phase, as he then proceeded to cause havok on my opponent's flank for the entire game. the acolyte bomb is devastating with full rock saws, but will die like guardsmen the minute that they receive any attention. The aberrants are great. They really do need buffing to make that charge and to counteract the negatives from the hammers, but if they're supported right they're an incredible hammer. With them being so scary, your opponent will be tempted to use heavy weapons on them, and this is the real trap as their damage reduction combined with their FNP makes multi-damage weapons so inefficient against them. I feel that they will be easy enough prey for your standard anti-infantry weapons, but then your opponent has to choose between them and the acolytes.
Having multiple squads of BB/neophytes dropping in will be so important to claiming objectives. You don't want your acolytes or aberrants sitting around in the open, and your characters all want to be front and center supporting your melee dudes. I will definitely look into taking a batallion of Rusted Claw for 3+ save neophytes in cover.
Mental Onslaught is stupid good. I had only a 3LD difference (Inspiring Leader, Clamavus, the Horror), but this still does 6 mortal wounds on average against a base LD of 10, and 12 against base LD 9. I know everyone is getting giddy about one-shotting knights, but being able to melt almost any character's brain from 18" away with minimal investment (I'd be taking the Neurothrope and Clamavus anyway) is such a useful tool.
Finally, the nids did what I expected, with the genestealers dying just as easily as they always do. I do feel like there is potential for nids to contribute a lot to a GSC army, though. Depending on deployment, two full units of genestealers can be in combat turn 1. They can clear screens, keep your opponent pushed back, and then fall out of combat and further into their lines to open the way for your t2 drop.
I will also be looking into how we can best use the t1 deepstrike, if the intent of They Came From Below is made clear. The opportunity to throw a squad of aberrants into your opponent t1, with a Primus and Abominant is too good to pass up. That said, I'm not expecting it to be ruled in our favour.
I have another report coming with a similar list against pure Custodes - all infantry and bikes. Place your bets now!
Had the necron guy screened with his destroyers rather then immortals, preventing you from locking him up and probably taking no damage in melee, I feel like he would have shot you off the table in two turns. He essentially played you with 20 tesla immortals locked up the entire game from the sound of it.
Ion Shields only work against shooting, so unless the knight in question has the relic I never see anyone take you shouldn't have to worry in melee.
Why use abberants at all, though? Acolytes are cheaper, fill a troop slot, and do more damage per point to most targets. Once you add in a couple of the easy to get buffs they can mulch knights (wounding on 4+/2+ with a single strength buff and the formation strat) and shred infantry like nobody's business. Dual talon metamorphs with hand flamers might blender infantry better, but that setup leaves them way too specialized and is almost certainly overkill to a ridiculous degree.
They're not as resilient individually, true, but a T4 5+/5+++ goes down pretty easily, too, and you can afford to lose 3-4 (non-saw) acolytes for every abberant (and having only 1 wound is the best defense against D2+ weapons). You lose more points per bolter hit on an abberant unit with hammers (picks come out slightly ahead), so they're not even more survivable against anti-infantry weapons. Once you've killed a 3/5ths of the acolytes and start losing saws the math does favor the abberants, but by then the abberant unit would be crippled as well. Not that either's going to survive a concentrated effort to remove them.
One thing I do want to see math on is Aberrants at S8 (Helix, MFB, and the Relic) with Picks versus Hammers. (Improvised Weapons are obviously still king on Hypermorphs, so just checking the math on a single Aberrant.)
JNAProductions wrote: One thing I do want to see math on is Aberrants at S8 (Helix, MFB, and the Relic) with Picks versus Hammers. (Improvised Weapons are obviously still king on Hypermorphs, so just checking the math on a single Aberrant.)
I think that the we need to consider the role of the unit in the army build when talking about pick vs hammer Aberrants. Aberrants are expensive, and really good at killing heavies. Pick Aberrants (paberrants?) have a lot of utility against medium vehicles, MEQ's, and things like that, but I think that the cost advantages of Acolytes make them superior.
Acolytes with saws are better at clearing light/medium infantry via volume of attacks and still threaten everything you want threatened, because saws are amazing. They have access to almost all the same bonuses that Aberrants do, and the ones they can't get are meh (improved snowflake FnP and the Biophagus) with the exception of being able to fight twice. Fight twice is most useful for alpha strikes against must kill targets like Knights.
In conclusion, I think that if you are going to run Aberrants, you should run them with hammers, in the role of deep striking heavy/superheavy killers. I think they have a solid niche in that role, and any GSC list has to at least consider them. I think that running pick Aberrants is a mistake, because the role filled by them is better filled by Acolytes.
As a side note, 10 Acolytes comes out as 6 PL. Banner + 4 Drills + flamers is the most expensive weapon combo, at just under 150 points. 150 points of summoning lets you hold 10 Acolytes kitted out to deal with target of choice in reserves, effectively acting as a sideboard. I need to spend some time playing with points on the various options. Because summoning gets around the must be out of reserves by turn 3, units can be dropped to secure/challenge objectives late game, or snag the odd kill on an otherwise unreachable unit.
JNAProductions wrote: Eh... Aberrants are pretty flipping durable, ESPECIALLY against D2, thanks to Bestial Vigor.
Yeah, but the acolytes also only lose one wound to that D2 weapon. And one to the d6 lascannon.
Overcharged plasma (just using one of the most common examples of D2) does 5.83 points killed per hit to the acolytes and 8.89 points killed per hit to the hammer abberants (6.94 if picks). That's even more in favor of the acolytes, and that's the point at which the abberants defensive tech is at its best. It only gets worse from there as you start losing a whole abberant per hit.
I am not worried about knights though. I am worried about some of the other lists out there that will mulch our infantry. I played this recently while I was just testing units, ITC format, and it butchered through my guys.
Deathwatch Battalion
Watch Master
Librarian
4 Squads of Vets with with max Storm shields and storm bolter
-Blackshield
-Terminator
-Bike
-Vanguard vet
One squad has a heavy bolter for hellfire shells stratagem.
Those squads can piss shots with the beta bolter drill (36) with a ton of rerolls. It's very annoying to face in ITC format. It gets real annoying when the NDK or draigo gate forward after using that strat and sanctuary to get a 2+ invulnerable save.
BTW the terminator also gets each squad (so 4) a teleporter beacon which apprently costs nothing and zone blocks deepstrike 9" so your basically stuck coming down the pipe toward them.
Teleport homers aren’t units, they’re like tyranid infestation nodes and don’t block deepstrike. I’m interested in the maths on vet squads vs rusted claw neophytes in cover, wonder how favourably we come off in that exchange. Also their overwatch vs acolytes as they mulch MEQ
Edit: In vengence round (-2AP) range (18”) using bolter drill, that squad picks off 16.5 neos in cover, yikes. (Assuming watch master rerolls and reroll 1s vs troops). That is preventing them from moving and relatively easily zoned out however. It goes down to 12.4 if they’re using kraken ammo.
The same setup kills 7.1 acolytes on the charge, double yikes. Praise the star gods for our ability to shut off overwatch. The thirteen remaining acolytes will have decent odds of wrecking the kill team if there are rocks saws though.
Sucks that you’re playing ITC vs that list, we’d wreck it in maelstrom due to a lack of mobility.
babelfish wrote: I think that the we need to consider the role of the unit in the army build when talking about pick vs hammer Aberrants. Aberrants are expensive, and really good at killing heavies. Pick Aberrants (paberrants?) have a lot of utility against medium vehicles, MEQ's, and things like that, but I think that the cost advantages of Acolytes make them superior.
Acolytes with saws are better at clearing light/medium infantry via volume of attacks and still threaten everything you want threatened, because saws are amazing. They have access to almost all the same bonuses that Aberrants do, and the ones they can't get are meh (improved snowflake FnP and the Biophagus) with the exception of being able to fight twice. Fight twice is most useful for alpha strikes against must kill targets like Knights.
In conclusion, I think that if you are going to run Aberrants, you should run them with hammers, in the role of deep striking heavy/superheavy killers. I think they have a solid niche in that role, and any GSC list has to at least consider them. I think that running pick Aberrants is a mistake, because the role filled by them is better filled by Acolytes.
As a side note, 10 Acolytes comes out as 6 PL. Banner + 4 Drills + flamers is the most expensive weapon combo, at just under 150 points. 150 points of summoning lets you hold 10 Acolytes kitted out to deal with target of choice in reserves, effectively acting as a sideboard. I need to spend some time playing with points on the various options. Because summoning gets around the must be out of reserves by turn 3, units can be dropped to secure/challenge objectives late game, or snag the odd kill on an otherwise unreachable unit.
Acolytes are still the better choice for super-heavy hunting, though. 10 hammer abberants with MfB deal 25 damage to a castellan, lose one or two to the bracketed return stomps, then destroy it with the second round of attacks (assuming Twisted Helix, of course). 20 acolytes (8 saws) with MfB and the +1 to wound Broodsurge strat just scrap the knight on the charge (32 damage). The acolytes cost 120 fewer points (assuming you brought hand flamers on everyone for generalist duty, 140 otherwise), can be from any sect (so can get a +1 to the charge from 4AE for a safer delivery system), and only use 1CP to the abberants' 3CP.
There just aren't a lot of targets that abberants are better at tackling than acolytes, unfortunately. They pay too much for the small amount of durability they were given (which they need, don't get me wrong, or D2 weapons just wipe them off the board), so we've ended up in another purestrain situation where the best option is the cheap stuff.
babelfish wrote: I think that the we need to consider the role of the unit in the army build when talking about pick vs hammer Aberrants. Aberrants are expensive, and really good at killing heavies. Pick Aberrants (paberrants?) have a lot of utility against medium vehicles, MEQ's, and things like that, but I think that the cost advantages of Acolytes make them superior.
Acolytes with saws are better at clearing light/medium infantry via volume of attacks and still threaten everything you want threatened, because saws are amazing. They have access to almost all the same bonuses that Aberrants do, and the ones they can't get are meh (improved snowflake FnP and the Biophagus) with the exception of being able to fight twice. Fight twice is most useful for alpha strikes against must kill targets like Knights.
In conclusion, I think that if you are going to run Aberrants, you should run them with hammers, in the role of deep striking heavy/superheavy killers. I think they have a solid niche in that role, and any GSC list has to at least consider them. I think that running pick Aberrants is a mistake, because the role filled by them is better filled by Acolytes.
As a side note, 10 Acolytes comes out as 6 PL. Banner + 4 Drills + flamers is the most expensive weapon combo, at just under 150 points. 150 points of summoning lets you hold 10 Acolytes kitted out to deal with target of choice in reserves, effectively acting as a sideboard. I need to spend some time playing with points on the various options. Because summoning gets around the must be out of reserves by turn 3, units can be dropped to secure/challenge objectives late game, or snag the odd kill on an otherwise unreachable unit.
Acolytes are still the better choice for super-heavy hunting, though. 10 hammer abberants with MfB deal 25 damage to a castellan, lose one or two to the bracketed return stomps, then destroy it with the second round of attacks (assuming Twisted Helix, of course). 20 acolytes (8 saws) with MfB and the +1 to wound Broodsurge strat just scrap the knight on the charge (32 damage). The acolytes cost 120 fewer points (assuming you brought hand flamers on everyone for generalist duty, 140 otherwise), can be from any sect (so can get a +1 to the charge from 4AE for a safer delivery system), and only use 1CP to the abberants' 3CP.
There just aren't a lot of targets that abberants are better at tackling than acolytes, unfortunately. They pay too much for the small amount of durability they were given (which they need, don't get me wrong, or D2 weapons just wipe them off the board), so we've ended up in another purestrain situation where the best option is the cheap stuff.
Interesting. I hadn't actually ran the numbers comparing the two. Is that saw only damage or did you include rending claw wounds? If so, did you assume all models survive overwatch and get close enough to swing? Assuming you included rending and all 20 are swinging, I feel it is reasonable to cut 5 or so wounds off your total. That's still 27 wounds, which is impressive.
C4790M wrote: Teleport homers aren’t units, they’re like tyranid infestation nodes and don’t block deepstrike. I’m interested in the maths on vet squads vs rusted claw neophytes in cover, wonder how favourably we come off in that exchange. Also their overwatch vs acolytes as they mulch MEQ
Edit: In vengence round (-2AP) range (18”) using bolter drill, that squad picks off 16.5 neos in cover, yikes. (Assuming watch master rerolls and reroll 1s vs troops). That is preventing them from moving and relatively easily zoned out however. It goes down to 12.4 if they’re using kraken ammo.
The same setup kills 7.1 acolytes on the charge, double yikes. Praise the star gods for our ability to shut off overwatch. The thirteen remaining acolytes will have decent odds of wrecking the kill team if there are rocks saws though.
Sucks that you’re playing ITC vs that list, we’d wreck it in maelstrom due to a lack of mobility.
We shut overwatch off with psychic powers, hence the grey knights. They have an inate +1 to deny plus a strat to roll 3 dice picking the highest two. Also, the homers apparently do work, it's part of their ability. Don't forget they have ignore s cover rounds. Although they may as well use the higher AP of the kraken.
I dislike ITC missions BTW. They are way to heavy on the supposed secondaries which should be called primaries because they decide every game. Using CA2018 missions I would have a much better shot via table control and playing the objectives, in ITC I just die and lose points.
Red Corsair wrote: I am not worried about knights though. I am worried about some of the other lists out there that will mulch our infantry. I played this recently while I was just testing units, ITC format, and it butchered through my guys.
Deathwatch Battalion
Watch Master
Librarian
4 Squads of Vets with with max Storm shields and storm bolter
-Blackshield
-Terminator
-Bike
-Vanguard vet
One squad has a heavy bolter for hellfire shells stratagem.
Those squads can piss shots with the beta bolter drill (36) with a ton of rerolls. It's very annoying to face in ITC format. It gets real annoying when the NDK or draigo gate forward after using that strat and sanctuary to get a 2+ invulnerable save.
BTW the terminator also gets each squad (so 4) a teleporter beacon which apprently costs nothing and zone blocks deepstrike 9" so your basically stuck coming down the pipe toward them.
He only gets double shots if he doesn't move, so you can just choose to wait him out T1 and pound him with any borrowed IG artillery you brought (you'll probably want to remove his screens at this point). T2 each DSing acolyte squad should be able to handle a Vet unit as they come down: lose four to overwatch, make it in 82% of the time (with a squad not in charge buff range getting the d6" move strat), and deal 8 of the squad's 12 wounds (plus any from buffs, strats, etc.). You'll lose a few more to the return attacks, not care, and he'll probably ignore morale due to the terminator. Next round he'll fall back and kill more with shooting, but he'll be down to only a couple of marines, so it should be survivable even with depleted squads. Whoever's left at this point can move up, hand flamer, and charge to finish them off.
You'll only have a few (half a dozen or so) left from each squad by the end, but they should be able to neutralize a vet squad each. Obviously that's a lot of "on average", but it should work out most of the time.
Gate-ing a NDK forward seems like a good way to get it killed. Even disregarding Mental Onslaught, there should be enough smites floating around to paste a lone NDK, and failing that you can just swarm it. Even if it makes a charge that turn, it should only be hitting chaff units you don't care about this early in the game.
Also, as noted, the teleport homers let him DS a squad back to them from elsewhere on the field, but aren't models and don't stop you from getting within range. They actually get removed if you move within 9" of them.
C4790M wrote: Teleport homers aren’t units, they’re like tyranid infestation nodes and don’t block deepstrike. I’m interested in the maths on vet squads vs rusted claw neophytes in cover, wonder how favourably we come off in that exchange. Also their overwatch vs acolytes as they mulch MEQ
Edit: In vengence round (-2AP) range (18”) using bolter drill, that squad picks off 16.5 neos in cover, yikes. (Assuming watch master rerolls and reroll 1s vs troops). That is preventing them from moving and relatively easily zoned out however. It goes down to 12.4 if they’re using kraken ammo.
The same setup kills 7.1 acolytes on the charge, double yikes. Praise the star gods for our ability to shut off overwatch. The thirteen remaining acolytes will have decent odds of wrecking the kill team if there are rocks saws though.
Sucks that you’re playing ITC vs that list, we’d wreck it in maelstrom due to a lack of mobility.
We shut overwatch off with psychic powers, hence the grey knights. They have an inate +1 to deny plus a strat to roll 3 dice picking the highest two. Also, the homers apparently do work, it's part of their ability. Don't forget they have ignore s cover rounds. Although they may as well use the higher AP of the kraken.
I hate ITC missions BTW. They suck and are way to heavy on the supposed secondaries which should be called primaries because they decide every game. Using CA2018 missions I would have a much better shot via table control and playing the objectives, in ITC I just die and lose points.
You don't need to shut off much overwatch, just take it with random acolytes (or BBs, if you really want to protect something expensive). Even SBs aren't that scary when hitting on 6s. You'll only lose ~4 guys going in (assuming no cover and kraken bolts to negate any save).
On the homer front, where does it say they block DS? I just checked and the codex doesn't say anything about that (only that they get removed if you move within 9", which may be what he was thinking of and he just confused the two?).
babelfish wrote: I think that the we need to consider the role of the unit in the army build when talking about pick vs hammer Aberrants. Aberrants are expensive, and really good at killing heavies. Pick Aberrants (paberrants?) have a lot of utility against medium vehicles, MEQ's, and things like that, but I think that the cost advantages of Acolytes make them superior.
Acolytes with saws are better at clearing light/medium infantry via volume of attacks and still threaten everything you want threatened, because saws are amazing. They have access to almost all the same bonuses that Aberrants do, and the ones they can't get are meh (improved snowflake FnP and the Biophagus) with the exception of being able to fight twice. Fight twice is most useful for alpha strikes against must kill targets like Knights.
In conclusion, I think that if you are going to run Aberrants, you should run them with hammers, in the role of deep striking heavy/superheavy killers. I think they have a solid niche in that role, and any GSC list has to at least consider them. I think that running pick Aberrants is a mistake, because the role filled by them is better filled by Acolytes.
As a side note, 10 Acolytes comes out as 6 PL. Banner + 4 Drills + flamers is the most expensive weapon combo, at just under 150 points. 150 points of summoning lets you hold 10 Acolytes kitted out to deal with target of choice in reserves, effectively acting as a sideboard. I need to spend some time playing with points on the various options. Because summoning gets around the must be out of reserves by turn 3, units can be dropped to secure/challenge objectives late game, or snag the odd kill on an otherwise unreachable unit.
Acolytes are still the better choice for super-heavy hunting, though. 10 hammer abberants with MfB deal 25 damage to a castellan, lose one or two to the bracketed return stomps, then destroy it with the second round of attacks (assuming Twisted Helix, of course). 20 acolytes (8 saws) with MfB and the +1 to wound Broodsurge strat just scrap the knight on the charge (32 damage). The acolytes cost 120 fewer points (assuming you brought hand flamers on everyone for generalist duty, 140 otherwise), can be from any sect (so can get a +1 to the charge from 4AE for a safer delivery system), and only use 1CP to the abberants' 3CP.
There just aren't a lot of targets that abberants are better at tackling than acolytes, unfortunately. They pay too much for the small amount of durability they were given (which they need, don't get me wrong, or D2 weapons just wipe them off the board), so we've ended up in another purestrain situation where the best option is the cheap stuff.
Interesting. I hadn't actually ran the numbers comparing the two. Is that saw only damage or did you include rending claw wounds? If so, did you assume all models survive overwatch and get close enough to swing? Assuming you included rending and all 20 are swinging, I feel it is reasonable to cut 5 or so wounds off your total. That's still 27 wounds, which is impressive.
Both are without overwatch, but you're only going to lose ~2 models (16 shots on average, so 2.2 dead) to it if you can't shut it down. Still more than enough to kill it (down to 31 damage), as the casualties will be the guys without saws. Abberants risk losing two guys as well, which hurts a lot more but also won't stop them from trashing it with their second round of fighting.
This does include the rending claws and knives for the non-saw acolytes. Each non-saw guy does .445 damage to the knight. The saws are doing the majority of the damage (26.68) and can basically solo the knight themselves. Everyone else is there to eat wounds and give the unit a wider range of targets. Three attacks (two with -1AP and rend) and a hand flamer each are pretty good for anti-infantry duty, after all.
C4790M wrote: Teleport homers aren’t units, they’re like tyranid infestation nodes and don’t block deepstrike. I’m interested in the maths on vet squads vs rusted claw neophytes in cover, wonder how favourably we come off in that exchange. Also their overwatch vs acolytes as they mulch MEQ
Edit: In vengence round (-2AP) range (18”) using bolter drill, that squad picks off 16.5 neos in cover, yikes. (Assuming watch master rerolls and reroll 1s vs troops). That is preventing them from moving and relatively easily zoned out however. It goes down to 12.4 if they’re using kraken ammo.
The same setup kills 7.1 acolytes on the charge, double yikes. Praise the star gods for our ability to shut off overwatch. The thirteen remaining acolytes will have decent odds of wrecking the kill team if there are rocks saws though.
Sucks that you’re playing ITC vs that list, we’d wreck it in maelstrom due to a lack of mobility.
We shut overwatch off with psychic powers, hence the grey knights. They have an inate +1 to deny plus a strat to roll 3 dice picking the highest two. Also, the homers apparently do work, it's part of their ability. Don't forget they have ignore s cover rounds. Although they may as well use the higher AP of the kraken.
I hate ITC missions BTW. They suck and are way to heavy on the supposed secondaries which should be called primaries because they decide every game. Using CA2018 missions I would have a much better shot via table control and playing the objectives, in ITC I just die and lose points.
I actually find I use my patriarch with the amulet relic to shut off overwatch more often then mass hypnosis. I actually give him familiars to increase the amount of units he can touch up. I’ve got the deathwatch codex in front of me. Nothing in teleport homers suggests that they block deepstrike :/
Teleport homers aren’t units, they’re like tyranid infestation nodes and don’t block deepstrike. I’m interested in the maths on vet squads vs rusted claw neophytes in cover, wonder how favourably we come off in that exchange. Also their overwatch vs acolytes as they mulch MEQ
Edit: In vengence round (-2AP) range (18”) using bolter drill, that squad picks off 16.5 neos in cover, yikes. (Assuming watch master rerolls and reroll 1s vs troops). That is preventing them from moving and relatively easily zoned out however. It goes down to 12.4 if they’re using kraken ammo.
The same setup kills 7.1 acolytes on the charge, double yikes. Praise the star gods for our ability to shut off overwatch. The thirteen remaining acolytes will have decent odds of wrecking the kill team if there are rocks saws though.
Sucks that you’re playing ITC vs that list, we’d wreck it in maelstrom due to a lack of mobility.
We shut overwatch off with psychic powers, hence the grey knights. They have an inate +1 to deny plus a strat to roll 3 dice picking the highest two. Also, the homers apparently do work, it's part of their ability. Don't forget they have ignore s cover rounds. Although they may as well use the higher AP of the kraken.
I hate ITC missions BTW. They suck and are way to heavy on the supposed secondaries which should be called primaries because they decide every game. Using CA2018 missions I would have a much better shot via table control and playing the objectives, in ITC I just die and lose points.
You don't need to shut off much overwatch, just take it with random acolytes (or BBs, if you really want to protect something expensive). Even SBs aren't that scary when hitting on 6s. You'll only lose ~4 guys going in (assuming no cover and kraken bolts to negate any save).
On the homer front, where does it say they block DS? I just checked and the codex doesn't say anything about that (only that they get removed if you move within 9", which may be what he was thinking of and he just confused the two?).
I think that the we need to consider the role of the unit in the army build when talking about pick vs hammer Aberrants. Aberrants are expensive, and really good at killing heavies. Pick Aberrants (paberrants?) have a lot of utility against medium vehicles, MEQ's, and things like that, but I think that the cost advantages of Acolytes make them superior.
Acolytes with saws are better at clearing light/medium infantry via volume of attacks and still threaten everything you want threatened, because saws are amazing. They have access to almost all the same bonuses that Aberrants do, and the ones they can't get are meh (improved snowflake FnP and the Biophagus) with the exception of being able to fight twice. Fight twice is most useful for alpha strikes against must kill targets like Knights.
In conclusion, I think that if you are going to run Aberrants, you should run them with hammers, in the role of deep striking heavy/superheavy killers. I think they have a solid niche in that role, and any GSC list has to at least consider them. I think that running pick Aberrants is a mistake, because the role filled by them is better filled by Acolytes.
As a side note, 10 Acolytes comes out as 6 PL. Banner + 4 Drills + flamers is the most expensive weapon combo, at just under 150 points. 150 points of summoning lets you hold 10 Acolytes kitted out to deal with target of choice in reserves, effectively acting as a sideboard. I need to spend some time playing with points on the various options. Because summoning gets around the must be out of reserves by turn 3, units can be dropped to secure/challenge objectives late game, or snag the odd kill on an otherwise unreachable unit.
Acolytes are still the better choice for super-heavy hunting, though. 10 hammer abberants with MfB deal 25 damage to a castellan, lose one or two to the bracketed return stomps, then destroy it with the second round of attacks (assuming Twisted Helix, of course). 20 acolytes (8 saws) with MfB and the +1 to wound Broodsurge strat just scrap the knight on the charge (32 damage). The acolytes cost 120 fewer points (assuming you brought hand flamers on everyone for generalist duty, 140 otherwise), can be from any sect (so can get a +1 to the charge from 4AE for a safer delivery system), and only use 1CP to the abberants' 3CP.
There just aren't a lot of targets that abberants are better at tackling than acolytes, unfortunately. They pay too much for the small amount of durability they were given (which they need, don't get me wrong, or D2 weapons just wipe them off the board), so we've ended up in another purestrain situation where the best option is the cheap stuff.
Interesting. I hadn't actually ran the numbers comparing the two. Is that saw only damage or did you include rending claw wounds? If so, did you assume all models survive overwatch and get close enough to swing? Assuming you included rending and all 20 are swinging, I feel it is reasonable to cut 5 or so wounds off your total. That's still 27 wounds, which is impressive.
Both are without overwatch, but you're only going to lose ~2 models (16 shots on average, so 2.2 dead) to it if you can't shut it down. Still more than enough to kill it (down to 31 damage), as the casualties will be the guys without saws. Abberants risk losing two guys as well, which hurts a lot more but also won't stop them from trashing it with their second round of fighting.
This does include the rending claws and knives for the non-saw acolytes. Each non-saw guy does .445 damage to the knight. The saws are doing the majority of the damage (26.68) and can basically solo the knight themselves. Everyone else is there to eat wounds and give the unit a wider range of targets. Three attacks (two with -1AP and rend) and a hand flamer each are pretty good for anti-infantry duty, after all.
I spoilered 90% of this to cut down on thread clutter. Based on your numbers, I'm thinking that turning off overwatch may be a waste of a spell. Unless you build towards it, your going to cap at 2-3 casts per turn. MfB on the Saw's, then either Mind Control or mortal wound nuke. Shooting someone with their own Knight, then oneshotting it with saw's is pretty nasty slap in the face. If you can hurt/kill a third unit with Mental Onslaught you might have locked in the win in a single turn. Plus the Patriarch can carry the no overwatch relic, look for a longish (7" if C4AE) charge, and solve that problem. If the Knight manages to survive the Acolytes, they can eat any wounds that land on the Patriarch and he has a good chance of finishing it off. The Patriarch wants to be part of the drop with the Acolytes anyway, so you don't lose anything even if he fails the charge.
I'm not sold on adding flamers to the 20 man saw blob. I think if you are going to run flamers, a 20 man flamer drop turn 2 and a 20 man saw drop turn 3 is the way to go. That said, I plan on using either Kraken 'stealers or Jorgmundr devilgaunts for my screen clearing, mostly because I already have 60+ of each and am not happy about $160 for 20 models. If I was less lazy willing to break the pistols off my existing models or was buying a bunch more, I could very much see 1 pt/model flamers as a good idea.
C4790M wrote: Teleport homers aren’t units, they’re like tyranid infestation nodes and don’t block deepstrike. I’m interested in the maths on vet squads vs rusted claw neophytes in cover, wonder how favourably we come off in that exchange. Also their overwatch vs acolytes as they mulch MEQ
Edit: In vengence round (-2AP) range (18”) using bolter drill, that squad picks off 16.5 neos in cover, yikes. (Assuming watch master rerolls and reroll 1s vs troops). That is preventing them from moving and relatively easily zoned out however. It goes down to 12.4 if they’re using kraken ammo.
The same setup kills 7.1 acolytes on the charge, double yikes. Praise the star gods for our ability to shut off overwatch. The thirteen remaining acolytes will have decent odds of wrecking the kill team if there are rocks saws though.
Sucks that you’re playing ITC vs that list, we’d wreck it in maelstrom due to a lack of mobility.
We shut overwatch off with psychic powers, hence the grey knights. They have an inate +1 to deny plus a strat to roll 3 dice picking the highest two. Also, the homers apparently do work, it's part of their ability. Don't forget they have ignore s cover rounds. Although they may as well use the higher AP of the kraken.
I hate ITC missions BTW. They suck and are way to heavy on the supposed secondaries which should be called primaries because they decide every game. Using CA2018 missions I would have a much better shot via table control and playing the objectives, in ITC I just die and lose points.
You don't need to shut off much overwatch, just take it with random acolytes (or BBs, if you really want to protect something expensive). Even SBs aren't that scary when hitting on 6s. You'll only lose ~4 guys going in (assuming no cover and kraken bolts to negate any save).
On the homer front, where does it say they block DS? I just checked and the codex doesn't say anything about that (only that they get removed if you move within 9", which may be what he was thinking of and he just confused the two?).
Trimarius wrote:
Spoiler:
Red Corsair wrote: I am not worried about knights though. I am worried about some of the other lists out there that will mulch our infantry. I played this recently while I was just testing units, ITC format, and it butchered through my guys.
Deathwatch Battalion
Watch Master
Librarian
4 Squads of Vets with with max Storm shields and storm bolter
-Blackshield
-Terminator
-Bike
-Vanguard vet
One squad has a heavy bolter for hellfire shells stratagem.
Those squads can piss shots with the beta bolter drill (36) with a ton of rerolls. It's very annoying to face in ITC format. It gets real annoying when the NDK or draigo gate forward after using that strat and sanctuary to get a 2+ invulnerable save.
BTW the terminator also gets each squad (so 4) a teleporter beacon which apprently costs nothing and zone blocks deepstrike 9" so your basically stuck coming down the pipe toward them.
He only gets double shots if he doesn't move, so you can just choose to wait him out T1 and pound him with any borrowed IG artillery you brought (you'll probably want to remove his screens at this point). T2 each DSing acolyte squad should be able to handle a Vet unit as they come down: lose four to overwatch, make it in 82% of the time (with a squad not in charge buff range getting the d6" move strat), and deal 8 of the squad's 12 wounds (plus any from buffs, strats, etc.). You'll lose a few more to the return attacks, not care, and he'll probably ignore morale due to the terminator. Next round he'll fall back and kill more with shooting, but he'll be down to only a couple of marines, so it should be survivable even with depleted squads. Whoever's left at this point can move up, hand flamer, and charge to finish them off.
You'll only have a few (half a dozen or so) left from each squad by the end, but they should be able to neutralize a vet squad each. Obviously that's a lot of "on average", but it should work out most of the time.
Gate-ing a NDK forward seems like a good way to get it killed. Even disregarding Mental Onslaught, there should be enough smites floating around to paste a lone NDK, and failing that you can just swarm it. Even if it makes a charge that turn, it should only be hitting chaff units you don't care about this early in the game.
Also, as noted, the teleport homers let him DS a squad back to them from elsewhere on the field, but aren't models and don't stop you from getting within range. They actually get removed if you move within 9" of them.
First off, thanks for the debate, it really helps me wrap my brain around the issue.
Can you point me in the direction of the rules source that demonstrates the homers don't block reserves? It is clearly a model in his army, does it specifically tell you it doesn't block reserves 9"? Because I have no idea why you are assuming it wouldn't. Honest question because I will need to support my interpretation at the table.
To push back a bit though, first I want to make it clear that I am assuming he is in range of all his auras. I know that's not gona be a thing with all his units but at some point I need to adress his units near the watch master. So on over watch he is getting 6 hits in the first volley, then another 5 hits after rerolls. 11 hits wounding on either 2's rerolling 1's or 3's rerolling 1's with no save will kill a lot more then 4 guys.
Also please note, he has multiple stratagems that will be a pain and I can only cancel one post FAQ. The Grey Knights will try to deny my MO with the 3d6 strat, which is why is will never work to kill his dread knight with a 2++ unless I block it, even then he has positive odds at the denial after a command reroll since he gets +1. If I burn my cancel in the psychic phase it means I never used it to cancel his auspex scan in the movement phase, meaning he deletes more then one unit before I roll dice to get in. All of this BTW assumes I can get in range, turn 1 I need to remove his loyal 32 but then he can just gate his 2++ dread knight in the middle of the table before I come in the next turn. Smites won't drop him since he can always burn the 5+++ strat on mortals and as I said, he will most likely deny my MO. Even if I remove the NDK, he has draigo and a second 1 to repeat the process.
My only ideas previously have been to spam trucks, neos and BB's and just shoot him down. But if he is in cover this becomes such a struggle all while I bleed secondaries and kill more each turn. Maybe I need to send 60+ acolytes in transports down his throat while I figure out the right fire base to remove the screen. Did I mention I dislike ITC missions? I still have fun losing BTW I just am not a fan of the missions for this reason, everything becomes about the stupid secondaries. His list is just really strong because it really doesn't give up any secondaries easily at all. Maybe I am better off milking his loyal 32 for kill a thing and playing out recon, old school and BELines?
EDIT No idea why the quote boxes are being stupid, sorry
Can you point me in the direction of the rules source that demonstrates the homers don't block reserves? It is clearly a model in his army, does it specifically tell you it doesn't block reserves 9"? Because I have no idea why you are assuming it wouldn't. Honest question because I will need to support my interpretation at the table.
How exactly does the relic sniper interact with Grey Knights tight now? Combo it with a bike sniper for the +1 to hit, perfect ambush it, get two shots at a 2+/4+ Perils on any model.
Can you point me in the direction of the rules source that demonstrates the homers don't block reserves? It is clearly a model in his army, does it specifically tell you it doesn't block reserves 9"? Because I have no idea why you are assuming it wouldn't. Honest question because I will need to support my interpretation at the table.
Ah thanks, this helps loads. Him having 4x 18" diameter zones where I could not drop in was massive. It let him spread out across the table and still be able to press forward with his veterans sandwiched between tokens and loyal 32. Without that he needs to consolidate his forces together opening up the flanks, or remain in his deployment giving me board control either way. I asked him if it had been FAQ'd, not his fault thogh he probably checked the DWFAQ's like I would have. Strange that it is in the BRBFAQ but not theirs.
I still think this our army struggles in ITC which sucks. I might have to just play another army sadly.
Astmeister wrote: I already included the additional attacks with rending claws for power picks. Hammers are still better as you can see.
You didn't calculate Rotate Ion Shields or Iron Bulward into your equation that's why the numbers seemed different to me at 4++ I'm getting 15 Unsaved Wounds from 10Hammerants and 6.667 From the 10Picks and 3.333 from the 10Rending Claw Attacks at 3++ it gets even closer. Hammers are still better but damn for 300 points, a 3CP Strategem to get you closer from your ambush, MFB, probably a Psyker power to get you into Combat, a 3CP to Fight again and a limited role afterwards doesn't seem like the best investment. If they don't have that Relic then you're getting 25 unsaved wounds from the Hammers which is fantastic but this discussion has gotten me seriously debating whether or not to take them which sucks as I have 16 of them plus an abomination that I just finished and they look nice.
Astmeister wrote: I already included the additional attacks with rending claws for power picks. Hammers are still better as you can see.
You didn't calculate Rotate Ion Shields or Iron Bulward into your equation that's why the numbers seemed different to me at 4++ I'm getting 15 Unsaved Wounds from 10Hammerants and 6.667 From the 10Picks and 3.333 from the 10Rending Claw Attacks at 3++ it gets even closer. Hammers are still better but damn for 300 points, a 3CP Strategem to get you closer from your ambush, MFB, probably a Psyker power to get you into Combat, a 3CP to Fight again and a limited role afterwards doesn't seem like the best investment. If they don't have that Relic then you're getting 25 unsaved wounds from the Hammers which is fantastic but this discussion has gotten me seriously debating whether or not to take them which sucks as I have 16 of them plus an abomination that I just finished and they look nice.
But that invun is only vs shooting, so it doesn't really matter in that comparison, doesn't it?
Teleport homers aren’t units, they’re like tyranid infestation nodes and don’t block deepstrike. I’m interested in the maths on vet squads vs rusted claw neophytes in cover, wonder how favourably we come off in that exchange. Also their overwatch vs acolytes as they mulch MEQ
Edit: In vengence round (-2AP) range (18”) using bolter drill, that squad picks off 16.5 neos in cover, yikes. (Assuming watch master rerolls and reroll 1s vs troops). That is preventing them from moving and relatively easily zoned out however. It goes down to 12.4 if they’re using kraken ammo.
The same setup kills 7.1 acolytes on the charge, double yikes. Praise the star gods for our ability to shut off overwatch. The thirteen remaining acolytes will have decent odds of wrecking the kill team if there are rocks saws though.
Sucks that you’re playing ITC vs that list, we’d wreck it in maelstrom due to a lack of mobility.
We shut overwatch off with psychic powers, hence the grey knights. They have an inate +1 to deny plus a strat to roll 3 dice picking the highest two. Also, the homers apparently do work, it's part of their ability. Don't forget they have ignore s cover rounds. Although they may as well use the higher AP of the kraken.
I hate ITC missions BTW. They suck and are way to heavy on the supposed secondaries which should be called primaries because they decide every game. Using CA2018 missions I would have a much better shot via table control and playing the objectives, in ITC I just die and lose points.
You don't need to shut off much overwatch, just take it with random acolytes (or BBs, if you really want to protect something expensive). Even SBs aren't that scary when hitting on 6s. You'll only lose ~4 guys going in (assuming no cover and kraken bolts to negate any save).
On the homer front, where does it say they block DS? I just checked and the codex doesn't say anything about that (only that they get removed if you move within 9", which may be what he was thinking of and he just confused the two?).
I think that the we need to consider the role of the unit in the army build when talking about pick vs hammer Aberrants. Aberrants are expensive, and really good at killing heavies. Pick Aberrants (paberrants?) have a lot of utility against medium vehicles, MEQ's, and things like that, but I think that the cost advantages of Acolytes make them superior.
Acolytes with saws are better at clearing light/medium infantry via volume of attacks and still threaten everything you want threatened, because saws are amazing. They have access to almost all the same bonuses that Aberrants do, and the ones they can't get are meh (improved snowflake FnP and the Biophagus) with the exception of being able to fight twice. Fight twice is most useful for alpha strikes against must kill targets like Knights.
In conclusion, I think that if you are going to run Aberrants, you should run them with hammers, in the role of deep striking heavy/superheavy killers. I think they have a solid niche in that role, and any GSC list has to at least consider them. I think that running pick Aberrants is a mistake, because the role filled by them is better filled by Acolytes.
As a side note, 10 Acolytes comes out as 6 PL. Banner + 4 Drills + flamers is the most expensive weapon combo, at just under 150 points. 150 points of summoning lets you hold 10 Acolytes kitted out to deal with target of choice in reserves, effectively acting as a sideboard. I need to spend some time playing with points on the various options. Because summoning gets around the must be out of reserves by turn 3, units can be dropped to secure/challenge objectives late game, or snag the odd kill on an otherwise unreachable unit.
Acolytes are still the better choice for super-heavy hunting, though. 10 hammer abberants with MfB deal 25 damage to a castellan, lose one or two to the bracketed return stomps, then destroy it with the second round of attacks (assuming Twisted Helix, of course). 20 acolytes (8 saws) with MfB and the +1 to wound Broodsurge strat just scrap the knight on the charge (32 damage). The acolytes cost 120 fewer points (assuming you brought hand flamers on everyone for generalist duty, 140 otherwise), can be from any sect (so can get a +1 to the charge from 4AE for a safer delivery system), and only use 1CP to the abberants' 3CP.
There just aren't a lot of targets that abberants are better at tackling than acolytes, unfortunately. They pay too much for the small amount of durability they were given (which they need, don't get me wrong, or D2 weapons just wipe them off the board), so we've ended up in another purestrain situation where the best option is the cheap stuff.
Interesting. I hadn't actually ran the numbers comparing the two. Is that saw only damage or did you include rending claw wounds? If so, did you assume all models survive overwatch and get close enough to swing? Assuming you included rending and all 20 are swinging, I feel it is reasonable to cut 5 or so wounds off your total. That's still 27 wounds, which is impressive.
Both are without overwatch, but you're only going to lose ~2 models (16 shots on average, so 2.2 dead) to it if you can't shut it down. Still more than enough to kill it (down to 31 damage), as the casualties will be the guys without saws. Abberants risk losing two guys as well, which hurts a lot more but also won't stop them from trashing it with their second round of fighting.
This does include the rending claws and knives for the non-saw acolytes. Each non-saw guy does .445 damage to the knight. The saws are doing the majority of the damage (26.68) and can basically solo the knight themselves. Everyone else is there to eat wounds and give the unit a wider range of targets. Three attacks (two with -1AP and rend) and a hand flamer each are pretty good for anti-infantry duty, after all.
I spoilered 90% of this to cut down on thread clutter. Based on your numbers, I'm thinking that turning off overwatch may be a waste of a spell. Unless you build towards it, your going to cap at 2-3 casts per turn. MfB on the Saw's, then either Mind Control or mortal wound nuke. Shooting someone with their own Knight, then oneshotting it with saw's is pretty nasty slap in the face. If you can hurt/kill a third unit with Mental Onslaught you might have locked in the win in a single turn. Plus the Patriarch can carry the no overwatch relic, look for a longish (7" if C4AE) charge, and solve that problem. If the Knight manages to survive the Acolytes, they can eat any wounds that land on the Patriarch and he has a good chance of finishing it off. The Patriarch wants to be part of the drop with the Acolytes anyway, so you don't lose anything even if he fails the charge.
I'm not sold on adding flamers to the 20 man saw blob. I think if you are going to run flamers, a 20 man flamer drop turn 2 and a 20 man saw drop turn 3 is the way to go. That said, I plan on using either Kraken 'stealers or Jorgmundr devilgaunts for my screen clearing, mostly because I already have 60+ of each and am not happy about $160 for 20 models. If I was less lazy willing to break the pistols off my existing models or was buying a bunch more, I could very much see 1 pt/model flamers as a good idea.
edited cause tags are hard.
The flamers are only 20 points, which is a pretty good deal just for the flexibility they bring. 240 points for a unit that can mulch infantry and still one-shot a knight seems like a steal, even if you don't end up using both options for each unit in a given game.
Yeah, $40 for 5 is insane, though. Personally, I'm planning on converting up more acolytes from necromunda gangers with extra arms (specifically the double arms) and heads from the acolyte/metamorph kit. There are so many extras that you can do a whole ten-man box with the bits from one acolyte box.
Red Corsair wrote:
To push back a bit though, first I want to make it clear that I am assuming he is in range of all his auras. I know that's not gona be a thing with all his units but at some point I need to adress his units near the watch master. So on over watch he is getting 6 hits in the first volley, then another 5 hits after rerolls. 11 hits wounding on either 2's rerolling 1's or 3's rerolling 1's with no save will kill a lot more then 4 guys.
Also please note, he has multiple stratagems that will be a pain and I can only cancel one post FAQ. The Grey Knights will try to deny my MO with the 3d6 strat, which is why is will never work to kill his dread knight with a 2++ unless I block it, even then he has positive odds at the denial after a command reroll since he gets +1. If I burn my cancel in the psychic phase it means I never used it to cancel his auspex scan in the movement phase, meaning he deletes more then one unit before I roll dice to get in. All of this BTW assumes I can get in range, turn 1 I need to remove his loyal 32 but then he can just gate his 2++ dread knight in the middle of the table before I come in the next turn. Smites won't drop him since he can always burn the 5+++ strat on mortals and as I said, he will most likely deny my MO. Even if I remove the NDK, he has draigo and a second 1 to repeat the process.
My only ideas previously have been to spam trucks, neos and BB's and just shoot him down. But if he is in cover this becomes such a struggle all while I bleed secondaries and kill more each turn. Maybe I need to send 60+ acolytes in transports down his throat while I figure out the right fire base to remove the screen. Did I mention I dislike ITC missions? I still have fun losing BTW I just am not a fan of the missions for this reason, everything becomes about the stupid secondaries. His list is just really strong because it really doesn't give up any secondaries easily at all. Maybe I am better off milking his loyal 32 for kill a thing and playing out recon, old school and BELines?
EDIT No idea why the quote boxes are being stupid, sorry
Don't forget that he needs to beat you with the deny, so even with his +1 its more of a 50/50 than assured, and that he needs to be within 24" to deny (so if you're hanging back for a round, only the GMNDK with its single deny will be in range). If he denies the MO (he certainly going to try, or that character pops, though if you roll well for the MO it might be worth it to vect the 3d6 deny for the kill), that still leaves you with however many smites you can sling unopposed. I generally have ~six available (five after the patriarch goes for MO), which should take a significant chunk out of him even with the 5+++, but you may have a different number. Then all of your on-board small arms and melee should be able to finish him off easily, even through the 2++.
As for the buffed overwatch, you can turn that off for one unit with a spell and charge in a patriarch with the amulet that negates OW to stop another. He can only use the 3d6 deny strat once a phase, so cast that before you go in to MO a GMNDK/Draigo/the watchmaster and he won't use it (or if he does, just MO the watchmaster to death, which you might as well try anyway even with the super deny). If there're still too many in range, you'll just have to throw bodies at them and accept the casualties. Ideally something cheap like brood brothers will eat it to save the more expensive acolytes, but at worst you can always try and recover the lost acolytes from the sacrificial squad with the d6 resurrection strat (if he doesn't finish it off).
And if he's all clustered up to overlap buffs, you should be able to get all your buffs on your guys, too. Rerolling with +1" to charges, +1 to hit, fearless, fnp, bonus denies, spells, easy order range for BBs, etc..
It's not going to be a completely one sided blow out, but dropping right in his face with most of your army (normally I'd use They Came From Below to hit him turn one, but in this instance it might be better to hold off until everything else comes in) denies him the infantry shredding SIA-SB shooting he'd get if you ran up the field and a massive pile of basic attacks (from acolyte claws and flamers) circumvents his storm shield advantage, which are the two things he's relying on to win.
Astmeister wrote: I already included the additional attacks with rending claws for power picks. Hammers are still better as you can see.
You didn't calculate Rotate Ion Shields or Iron Bulward into your equation that's why the numbers seemed different to me at 4++ I'm getting 15 Unsaved Wounds from 10Hammerants and 6.667 From the 10Picks and 3.333 from the 10Rending Claw Attacks at 3++ it gets even closer. Hammers are still better but damn for 300 points, a 3CP Strategem to get you closer from your ambush, MFB, probably a Psyker power to get you into Combat, a 3CP to Fight again and a limited role afterwards doesn't seem like the best investment. If they don't have that Relic then you're getting 25 unsaved wounds from the Hammers which is fantastic but this discussion has gotten me seriously debating whether or not to take them which sucks as I have 16 of them plus an abomination that I just finished and they look nice.
Ion Shields (and the Ion Bulwark WL trait) only work against ranged weapons, as noted, so you're good to punch it to death. And they're not taking the melee 5++ relic, because that means no Cawl's Wrath, which is the only reason you even see castellans (well, Cawl's Wrath in combo with the Raven strat, anyway).
The a-bomb should extremely reliably take out a castellan if you can get them to it. You should do something like 45 wounds to it if you fight twice. I prefer acolytes with saws (cheaper, more flexible, but will still scrap a castellan), but the abberants will totally wreck a knight.
Astmeister wrote: I already included the additional attacks with rending claws for power picks. Hammers are still better as you can see.
You didn't calculate Rotate Ion Shields or Iron Bulward into your equation that's why the numbers seemed different to me at 4++ I'm getting 15 Unsaved Wounds from 10Hammerants and 6.667 From the 10Picks and 3.333 from the 10Rending Claw Attacks at 3++ it gets even closer. Hammers are still better but damn for 300 points, a 3CP Strategem to get you closer from your ambush, MFB, probably a Psyker power to get you into Combat, a 3CP to Fight again and a limited role afterwards doesn't seem like the best investment. If they don't have that Relic then you're getting 25 unsaved wounds from the Hammers which is fantastic but this discussion has gotten me seriously debating whether or not to take them which sucks as I have 16 of them plus an abomination that I just finished and they look nice.
But that invun is only vs shooting, so it doesn't really matter in that comparison, doesn't it?
The Sanctuary Relic allows you to take the invulnerable in melee and my question was specifically regrading a knight with this relic.
Astmeister wrote: I already included the additional attacks with rending claws for power picks. Hammers are still better as you can see.
You didn't calculate Rotate Ion Shields or Iron Bulward into your equation that's why the numbers seemed different to me at 4++ I'm getting 15 Unsaved Wounds from 10Hammerants and 6.667 From the 10Picks and 3.333 from the 10Rending Claw Attacks at 3++ it gets even closer. Hammers are still better but damn for 300 points, a 3CP Strategem to get you closer from your ambush, MFB, probably a Psyker power to get you into Combat, a 3CP to Fight again and a limited role afterwards doesn't seem like the best investment. If they don't have that Relic then you're getting 25 unsaved wounds from the Hammers which is fantastic but this discussion has gotten me seriously debating whether or not to take them which sucks as I have 16 of them plus an abomination that I just finished and they look nice.
But that invun is only vs shooting, so it doesn't really matter in that comparison, doesn't it?
The Sanctuary Relic allows you to take the invulnerable in melee and my question was specifically regrading a knight with this relic.
Note that Ion Bulwark only applies to shooting, so it's a 5++ (4++ with RIS) in melee. Never a 3++.
Don't forget that he needs to beat you with the deny, so even with his +1 its more of a 50/50 than assured, and that he needs to be within 24" to deny (so if you're hanging back for a round, only the GMNDK with its single deny will be in range). If he denies the MO (he certainly going to try, or that character pops, though if you roll well for the MO it might be worth it to vect the 3d6 deny for the kill), that still leaves you with however many smites you can sling unopposed. I generally have ~six available (five after the patriarch goes for MO), which should take a significant chunk out of him even with the 5+++, but you may have a different number. Then all of your on-board small arms and melee should be able to finish him off easily, even through the 2++.
As for the buffed overwatch, you can turn that off for one unit with a spell and charge in a patriarch with the amulet that negates OW to stop another. He can only use the 3d6 deny strat once a phase, so cast that before you go in to MO a GMNDK/Draigo/the watchmaster and he won't use it (or if he does, just MO the watchmaster to death, which you might as well try anyway even with the super deny). If there're still too many in range, you'll just have to throw bodies at them and accept the casualties. Ideally something cheap like brood brothers will eat it to save the more expensive acolytes, but at worst you can always try and recover the lost acolytes from the sacrificial squad with the d6 resurrection strat (if he doesn't finish it off).
And if he's all clustered up to overlap buffs, you should be able to get all your buffs on your guys, too. Rerolling with +1" to charges, +1 to hit, fearless, fnp, bonus denies, spells, easy order range for BBs, etc..
It's not going to be a completely one sided blow out, but dropping right in his face with most of your army (normally I'd use They Came From Below to hit him turn one, but in this instance it might be better to hold off until everything else comes in) denies him the infantry shredding SIA-SB shooting he'd get if you ran up the field and a massive pile of basic attacks (from acolyte claws and flamers) circumvents his storm shield advantage, which are the two things he's relying on to win.
I think your over simplifying things a bit and I don't really want to get into vacuum hammer. You keep referring to strategies that you can't use at once. For example I can't cancel his deny stratagem and auspex scan, I get one use per game. I also cannot psychic mortal wound spam his dude and cast mass hypnosis. I know how to beat the army, I just don't know how to do it and win the ITC format. Our army literally functions by hurling wave after wave at the opponent, that is a terrible style in ITC. You basically hand them easy secondaries and kill more every turn and play from behind. It's part of the reason I am not a fan of ITC missions, I realize any format will be gamed, but that format in particular focuses on castles and gun lines too much. You only ever need to hold 1 objective.
What are your ideas on a list? I think that might be a better direction for the discussion.
I think your over simplifying things a bit and I don't really want to get into vacuum hammer. You keep referring to strategies that you can't use at once. For example I can't cancel his deny stratagem and auspex scan, I get one use per game. I also cannot psychic mortal wound spam his dude and cast mass hypnosis. I know how to beat the army, I just don't know how to do it and win the ITC format. Our army literally functions by hurling wave after wave at the opponent, that is a terrible style in ITC. You basically hand them easy secondaries and kill more every turn and play from behind. It's part of the reason I am not a fan of ITC missions, I realize any format will be gamed, but that format in particular focuses on castles and gun lines too much. You only ever need to hold 1 objective.
What are your ideas on a list? I think that might be a better direction for the discussion.
It is all fairly general, but there's not really a way to get really specific without an actual game getting played. There's always that aspect of choosing the correct way to expend limited resources during a game.
I'm not sure GSC do particularly horribly in ITC, as those secondary objectives are all so easy to get. My comments are all academic, though, as no one around here uses that setup. Because, really, when eight out of eleven secondaries (and all of the ones you can score rapidly) and three out of four primaries (come on, hold one objective that you could deploy on is not a game objective, it's a waste of ink) there are really quite obvious consequences.
The only thing I could suggest is to play for the "hold more objectives" battle round primary (and the scenario point, if it's not one of the insanely awkward ones) while maxing out on your own murder-based secondaries in return (under the assumption that he will also get 12 secondary points). His army isn't particularly mobile and wants to castle up, so you should be able to snag that one with disposable BB/Neophyte units more often than he can, letting you eke out a victory that way.
Then you try to cripple his army with an overwhelming strike on turn two, which should be able to limit his return fire somewhat. You'll just need to make sure you limit what he can kill on T1 (he doesn't have a ton of firepower if you hang back, so you shouldn't lose that much) while still clearing out the IG screen as best you can (here's where those mortars/wyverns/whatever other long ranged shooting are going to be critical).
His whole army is centered around vicious anti-infantry firepower and amazing invulnerable saves. By deepstriking most of your list into his face on turn two and dishing out a ton of middling attacks that don't lose much vs a 3++ you bypass both of those to a fair degree. Just don't try and footslog it up the field at him; that'll result in him blasting multiple squads off the table in each shooting phase and then picking the remnants apart as he falls back once you do manage to get the stragglers into combat.
To sum it up: DS 75% of your army at him T2 and hope to crush him, or walk at him and lose.
Astmeister wrote: Okay if you define what kind of save the knight will have, I can calculate it.
The possible saves for a Knight are:
3+
3+/5++
3+/4++
2+
Since both the 2+ and 5++ are different Relics, they can never have both a 2+ and an Invuln in close combat.
Edit: This is CODEX Knights. Some FW Knight might have a native 2+ or something, but I assume we're talking main GW only.
5++ and 2+ are the same for abberants (-3 AP turns that 2+ into a 5+ anyway), so there's really only three strata. You need either the MfB for the +1S and +1A or the Twisted Helix fight twice strat to kill a knight with a 3+ and no melee invul and both to kill either knight that has a melee invul or a 2+ save. A dominus with the 4++ in melee could survive with a little luck, unfortunately, as you only average a tiny bit of overkill. I've never seen a dominus without its associated relic gun, though, so you should be ok.
Can we talk about extra explosives and demoliton charge deliverance?
Top canidates for delivery: Atlan Jackals and Acolyte Hyrbids. 1 CP for extra explosives, 2 CP for Lying in Waight. Potensially 1 CP for Drive-By Demolition if you are rusted claw.
Is it worth using it with Acolyte Hyrbids, or do we need Jackals. Can we stop at 4 demolition charges, or do we need to push it to 5? Also, is Drive-By Demonilition mandatory? + 1 to hit and +1 to damge is insane. Can 5 of them kill a Castelan? What if you add a Jackal Alphus. I mean, 5d6 hitting on 2+ D8 with +1 on the damage roll AP-3 and 1d3 damage. That seem real legit. Is it an alternative to charging from a perfect ambush?
And 5d6 is 17.5 shots.
Hitting on a 2+ is 14.583 hits.
Wounding on a 3+ is 9.722 wounds.
At AP-2, that's anywhere from a 3++ to a 5++.
At 5++, it's 12.963 damage.
Halve that (6.481 damage) for a 3++.
In other words... No. You won't even bracket one with only a 5++.
So are we saying that you could use Lying in Wait for a Locus, apply the -1Ld to a target for MO, and then use his Sudden Strike to move 6" into combat, and still attack first, delivering 2 damage per successful wound? I mean I know that this is wasting a perfectly good opportunity to drop a million hand flamers instead, but it is a nasty surprise if done right.
I hammered together a list to try running at my next local, which is at the end of the month. It takes a lot of things I like and want to try, plus some old favorites that I have ready to go from Tyranids.
List
Spoiler:
Jormungandr Battalion
Neurothrope
Neurothrope
3x Rippers
3x Rippers
25x Termagants (devourer)
3x Ravenrs (deathspitter, rending claws)
Twisted Helix Battalion
Magus
Patriarch
Primus
20x Acolyte Hybrids (Icon, 8x rock saw)
20x Acolyte Hybrids (Icon, 20x hand flamer)
10x Neophyte Hybrids (2x mining laser)
18 CP, lots of chaff clearing, access to APGITM, Acolyte Bomb, Flamer Bomb.
Primarch is the warlord, giving him the cc buff warlord trait. I pop Broodcoven to give the Primus the increased aura range and the C4AE Magus the C4AE warlord trait for the d3 CP.
For deployment I blip/deploy the Alphus, a Magus, the Neophytes, Iconward, Rippers, one Neurothrope, and the Nexos, for 12 units deployed. I spend 2 CP to tunnel Neurothrope and the Termagants in with the Raveners, and reserve the Primarch, Primus, other Magus, both Kelermorphs, Clamavus, and both Acolyte units.
At this point I have spent 3/18 CP and got back 1d3, leaving me with at least 16.
Turn 1 I Perfect Ambush the Sanctus, plink with the mining lasers and snipers, and hope that I have enough models on the field/have screened and hidden my units well enought that I survive to turn 2. The Iconward hangs out next to the Neophytes to help them not run. The Alphus can buff either then mining lasers or the Sanctus, depending on priority targets.I have 40 infantry models in 4 squads, 9 Ripper bases, and 6 characters on the table.
Turn 2 I tunnel in the Rippers with the Termagants and a Neurothrope. The 'gaunts really want to be in synapse for the alpha strike and keeping them fearless is useful, and the Neurothrope provides useful Tyranid powers. Smite/Catylist the turn he lands, and Horror the turn the Primarch comes in. I have almost never done a devilgaunt drop that didn't shoot twice, so 2 CP to double tap.
Depending on targets and screens I either bring in the the flamer Acolytes or drop the Saw bomb (saw Acolytes + characters) or both. I expect that in general the 'gaunts and the flamers come down turn 2, with the Kelermorphs, and the 'cc units come down turn 3. I expect to use 5 CP on the two drops, plus a reroll somewhere in there, which puts me at 8 CP, with one regenerated, so 9.
I'm now at turn 3, with a lot of frail but hard hitting units on the table. If I did enough damage on my drops I expect to be mopping up. If not, I'm going to be picking up a lot of models as I scramble to make points. I have enough CP to try to pick up a unit and drop it again, giving me flexibility.
I think your over simplifying things a bit and I don't really want to get into vacuum hammer. You keep referring to strategies that you can't use at once. For example I can't cancel his deny stratagem and auspex scan, I get one use per game. I also cannot psychic mortal wound spam his dude and cast mass hypnosis. I know how to beat the army, I just don't know how to do it and win the ITC format. Our army literally functions by hurling wave after wave at the opponent, that is a terrible style in ITC. You basically hand them easy secondaries and kill more every turn and play from behind. It's part of the reason I am not a fan of ITC missions, I realize any format will be gamed, but that format in particular focuses on castles and gun lines too much. You only ever need to hold 1 objective.
What are your ideas on a list? I think that might be a better direction for the discussion.
It is all fairly general, but there's not really a way to get really specific without an actual game getting played. There's always that aspect of choosing the correct way to expend limited resources during a game.
I'm not sure GSC do particularly horribly in ITC, as those secondary objectives are all so easy to get. My comments are all academic, though, as no one around here uses that setup. Because, really, when eight out of eleven secondaries (and all of the ones you can score rapidly) and three out of four primaries (come on, hold one objective that you could deploy on is not a game objective, it's a waste of ink) there are really quite obvious consequences.
The only thing I could suggest is to play for the "hold more objectives" battle round primary (and the scenario point, if it's not one of the insanely awkward ones) while maxing out on your own murder-based secondaries in return (under the assumption that he will also get 12 secondary points). His army isn't particularly mobile and wants to castle up, so you should be able to snag that one with disposable BB/Neophyte units more often than he can, letting you eke out a victory that way.
Then you try to cripple his army with an overwhelming strike on turn two, which should be able to limit his return fire somewhat. You'll just need to make sure you limit what he can kill on T1 (he doesn't have a ton of firepower if you hang back, so you shouldn't lose that much) while still clearing out the IG screen as best you can (here's where those mortars/wyverns/whatever other long ranged shooting are going to be critical).
His whole army is centered around vicious anti-infantry firepower and amazing invulnerable saves. By deepstriking most of your list into his face on turn two and dishing out a ton of middling attacks that don't lose much vs a 3++ you bypass both of those to a fair degree. Just don't try and footslog it up the field at him; that'll result in him blasting multiple squads off the table in each shooting phase and then picking the remnants apart as he falls back once you do manage to get the stragglers into combat.
To sum it up: DS 75% of your army at him T2 and hope to crush him, or walk at him and lose.
OK well that's clearing things up a lot. If you haven't played ITC missions at all then you will have trouble relating to where I am coming from. You keep assuming secondaries are something simple to achieve that's not the core problem. The whole issue with GSC in ITC is they hand over VP's so easily it's nuts, while the enemy will tailor their army so it doesn't give away secondaries. That means we are stuck trying to grab board control objectives like recon. If I go for recon I need to be in 4 quarters with 4 units for 4 turns to max it out. Thats a long ass time to survive with some of the lists out there.
Let me break it down for you another way, when making an army for the ITC format, you can't just consider how you will kill enemy units, thats only part of it. You also need to look through the entire list of secondaries and tailor your own army so that it doesn't give up those VP's at all, or so it short changes the opponent. So for example one might intentionally run only 3 units with 7 or more wounds so the enemy can only ever get 3 points for big game hunter instead of the maximum 4. If your list does allow for 4 of big game hunter you would want those units to be durable as possible. Like take for instance eldar fliers, after hit mods they become quite durable, so not only are they good units but they also become a trap for secondaries.
Our army gives up, butchers bill, reaper, marked for death, head hunter and possibly big game hunter like a bad joke. Since we basically rely on reserves to be mobile and durable we also give up board control easier then you would think in order to try to get into assault. It's easy to say throw away lines like, reserve 75% of your army and crush them at once on turn 2, but any good tournament list with a competent general is going to zone you back and feed you sub-optimal targets in the process.
Look over that DW list I shared and tell me which secondaries you think are easy to get from it. The obvious choices to me are recon, behind enemy lines and ground control. The major issue is not being tabled in 4 turns while you sacrifice your units spreading out to get those. Turn 1 we basically are not scoring them due to reserves, or we do attempt to score those but we now are not removing the loyal 32.
This is why I have asked you to post a list you think would beat the DW army I posted in the ITC format. What secondaries would you go for and how? Will that list still be TAC?
babelfish wrote: I hammered together a list to try running at my next local, which is at the end of the month. It takes a lot of things I like and want to try, plus some old favorites that I have ready to go from Tyranids.
List
Spoiler:
Jormungandr Battalion
Neurothrope
Neurothrope
3x Rippers
3x Rippers
25x Termagants (devourer)
3x Ravenrs (deathspitter, rending claws)
Twisted Helix Battalion
Magus
Patriarch
Primus
20x Acolyte Hybrids (Icon, 8x rock saw)
20x Acolyte Hybrids (Icon, 20x hand flamer)
10x Neophyte Hybrids (2x mining laser)
18 CP, lots of chaff clearing, access to APGITM, Acolyte Bomb, Flamer Bomb.
Primarch is the warlord, giving him the cc buff warlord trait. I pop Broodcoven to give the Primus the increased aura range and the C4AE Magus the C4AE warlord trait for the d3 CP.
For deployment I blip/deploy the Alphus, a Magus, the Neophytes, Iconward, Rippers, one Neurothrope, and the Nexos, for 12 units deployed. I spend 2 CP to tunnel Neurothrope and the Termagants in with the Raveners, and reserve the Primarch, Primus, other Magus, both Kelermorphs, Clamavus, and both Acolyte units.
At this point I have spent 3/18 CP and got back 1d3, leaving me with at least 16.
Turn 1 I Perfect Ambush the Sanctus, plink with the mining lasers and snipers, and hope that I have enough models on the field/have screened and hidden my units well enought that I survive to turn 2. The Iconward hangs out next to the Neophytes to help them not run. The Alphus can buff either then mining lasers or the Sanctus, depending on priority targets.I have 40 infantry models in 4 squads, 9 Ripper bases, and 6 characters on the table.
Turn 2 I tunnel in the Rippers with the Termagants and a Neurothrope. The 'gaunts really want to be in synapse for the alpha strike and keeping them fearless is useful, and the Neurothrope provides useful Tyranid powers. Smite/Catylist the turn he lands, and Horror the turn the Primarch comes in. I have almost never done a devilgaunt drop that didn't shoot twice, so 2 CP to double tap.
Depending on targets and screens I either bring in the the flamer Acolytes or drop the Saw bomb (saw Acolytes + characters) or both. I expect that in general the 'gaunts and the flamers come down turn 2, with the Kelermorphs, and the 'cc units come down turn 3. I expect to use 5 CP on the two drops, plus a reroll somewhere in there, which puts me at 8 CP, with one regenerated, so 9.
I'm now at turn 3, with a lot of frail but hard hitting units on the table. If I did enough damage on my drops I expect to be mopping up. If not, I'm going to be picking up a lot of models as I scramble to make points. I have enough CP to try to pick up a unit and drop it again, giving me flexibility.
Your list looks pretty solid. if you don't mind I have just a couple of suggestions to help improve it.
I'd chuck the nexos into the Twisted helix detachment as he will regen CP's on 5's if you have a Primus and/or clamavus on the table, he doesn't need to be in the C4AE detachment.
I'd then chuck the magus from the twisted helix detachment into the C4AE detachment and swap him for the Iconward. The Broodcoven strat doesn't stipulate the three he's must be in the same detachment even post FAQ and this way you can still do the three warlord traits you'd like but now the Twisted Helix detachment can become a Broodsurge detachment from Vigilus for an additional 2CP. From my experience so far this will ensure that the acolytes WILL make combat which is where most of your damage will be coming from by the looks of things.
But its also been my experience so far that Rusted Claw is better for the survival of our squishy acolytes than Twisted Helix, but it's a tough choice as +1 strength is also great....if they can get the charge.
EVERY other choice is suboptimal and/or unjustified in its use
He exclaimed giving no explanation or evidence
Could you be more rude and dismissive?
None of the load outs you shared are particularly good and definitely not the end all be all.
Seismic canons are not very good for example, they just add more s3 for a high price. Two neophytes with seizmic canons (34pts!)gets you 8.5 brood brothers which I'd always rather have. less shots at 24 but way more at 12 with orders and more wounds is always better. If I am spending 12 points on a gun I'd rather have mining lasers since it's a weapon you can't grab anywhere else, it's cheap for being a las canon and it fulfills a role the army lacks greatly. Ranged AT.
You seem to be hung up on range bands which makes little sense to me considering our army can deploy anywhere.
Wow, and I was having issues against try hard lists using GEQ to screen or nurglings. Those are troops even. Ladies and gentleman you have now seen the new auto take battalion for imperium. Retire those scouts.
Wow those pricks literally wreck GSC ambush. You can't even charge from ambush to remove them because you will be 12.1" away and can't even declare, meaning you need to burn 3cp on a single unit just to end up with a standard 9" charge.
I hate that this army is basically turning into allies for Guard or Nids. There is next to no benefit to running them as your primary focus outside of fluff.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Badablack wrote: Wait...so if they set up 9” from your board edge and there’s ambush tokens in range does that mean the ambushing unit just can’t come on the board?
I believe they already added commentary or it's in the FAQ that blips are not reinforcements, which is why the entire army can deploy hidden. So thankfully at least are deployment is safe.
Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote: How does the first turn deep strike work? Can't seem to find the page it was talked about.
The Tactical Reserves rule in the big faq 2 states that:
Furthermore, in matched play games, units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as reinforcements cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round.
The 'They Came From Below...' stratagem means you set up some units as blips during deployment, then when it's time to replace the blips with units (after deployment), you transfer them to being set up underground (reinforcements).
According to the GSCfaq, units set up as blips do count as being deployed on the table for the purposes of tactical reserves.
Page 79 – Cult Ambush Add the following sentence: ‘Matched Play: In matched play, units set up in ambush using this rule count as being set up on the battlefield for the purposes of Tactical Reserves.’
Because they were set up on the table during deployment, the argument is they get to bypass tactical reserves, and can arrive at the end of movement on turn 1. Kinda like orks using Da Jump.
Badablack wrote: Wait...so if they set up 9” from your board edge and there’s ambush tokens in range does that mean the ambushing unit just can’t come on the board?
I believe they already added commentary or it's in the FAQ that blips are not reinforcements, which is why the entire army can deploy hidden. So thankfully at least are deployment is safe.
So if we use They Came From Below removing 3 blips, these are reinforcements? or we can skip the rule from infiltrators with these 3 units?
babelfish wrote: I hammered together a list to try running at my next local, which is at the end of the month. It takes a lot of things I like and want to try, plus some old favorites that I have ready to go from Tyranids.
List
Spoiler:
Jormungandr Battalion
Neurothrope
Neurothrope
3x Rippers
3x Rippers
25x Termagants (devourer)
3x Ravenrs (deathspitter, rending claws)
Twisted Helix Battalion
Magus
Patriarch
Primus
20x Acolyte Hybrids (Icon, 8x rock saw)
20x Acolyte Hybrids (Icon, 20x hand flamer)
10x Neophyte Hybrids (2x mining laser)
18 CP, lots of chaff clearing, access to APGITM, Acolyte Bomb, Flamer Bomb.
Primarch is the warlord, giving him the cc buff warlord trait. I pop Broodcoven to give the Primus the increased aura range and the C4AE Magus the C4AE warlord trait for the d3 CP.
For deployment I blip/deploy the Alphus, a Magus, the Neophytes, Iconward, Rippers, one Neurothrope, and the Nexos, for 12 units deployed. I spend 2 CP to tunnel Neurothrope and the Termagants in with the Raveners, and reserve the Primarch, Primus, other Magus, both Kelermorphs, Clamavus, and both Acolyte units.
At this point I have spent 3/18 CP and got back 1d3, leaving me with at least 16.
Turn 1 I Perfect Ambush the Sanctus, plink with the mining lasers and snipers, and hope that I have enough models on the field/have screened and hidden my units well enought that I survive to turn 2. The Iconward hangs out next to the Neophytes to help them not run. The Alphus can buff either then mining lasers or the Sanctus, depending on priority targets.I have 40 infantry models in 4 squads, 9 Ripper bases, and 6 characters on the table.
Turn 2 I tunnel in the Rippers with the Termagants and a Neurothrope. The 'gaunts really want to be in synapse for the alpha strike and keeping them fearless is useful, and the Neurothrope provides useful Tyranid powers. Smite/Catylist the turn he lands, and Horror the turn the Primarch comes in. I have almost never done a devilgaunt drop that didn't shoot twice, so 2 CP to double tap.
Depending on targets and screens I either bring in the the flamer Acolytes or drop the Saw bomb (saw Acolytes + characters) or both. I expect that in general the 'gaunts and the flamers come down turn 2, with the Kelermorphs, and the 'cc units come down turn 3. I expect to use 5 CP on the two drops, plus a reroll somewhere in there, which puts me at 8 CP, with one regenerated, so 9.
I'm now at turn 3, with a lot of frail but hard hitting units on the table. If I did enough damage on my drops I expect to be mopping up. If not, I'm going to be picking up a lot of models as I scramble to make points. I have enough CP to try to pick up a unit and drop it again, giving me flexibility.
Your list looks pretty solid. if you don't mind I have just a couple of suggestions to help improve it.
I'd chuck the nexos into the Twisted helix detachment as he will regen CP's on 5's if you have a Primus and/or clamavus on the table, he doesn't need to be in the C4AE detachment.
I'd then chuck the magus from the twisted helix detachment into the C4AE detachment and swap him for the Iconward. The Broodcoven strat doesn't stipulate the three he's must be in the same detachment even post FAQ and this way you can still do the three warlord traits you'd like but now the Twisted Helix detachment can become a Broodsurge detachment from Vigilus for an additional 2CP. From my experience so far this will ensure that the acolytes WILL make combat which is where most of your damage will be coming from by the looks of things.
But its also been my experience so far that Rusted Claw is better for the survival of our squishy acolytes than Twisted Helix, but it's a tough choice as +1 strength is also great....if they can get the charge.
Hope this helps and best of luck!
The C4AE started out as a vanguard, thus the Nexos in it, I forgot to swap him into the Twisted Helix when I expanded to 3 battalions. Good catch.
I don't have Vigilus and won't be getting it till next month. A Broodsurge would be good, I just can't run it at the moment. Note that I'm already running a C4AE Magus, so getting rid of the Helix one would free up some points.
Right now I'm inclined for Helix Acolytes because of the ability to delete a knight on the charge. I think I hard counter the Castilian + loyal 32 build and an viable against a wide range of opponents.
What do you think of dropping the Iconward? He makes a lot of sense keeping large blobs of Rusted Claw Neophytes alive, but I'm not sure about his value with the small squads I'm running. 10 GEQ only really lasts till they get looked at, 6+++ or no.
I could tease points around a bit, drop him, look to have some points for summoning. Hmmm. The magic number for 'gaunts is 20, if I drop the Iconward and trim to 20 'gaunts that leaves 93 points to build summoning units with. Or I could bulk up some cutters or drills on the flamer Acolytes.
babelfish wrote: I hammered together a list to try running at my next local, which is at the end of the month. It takes a lot of things I like and want to try, plus some old favorites that I have ready to go from Tyranids.
List
Spoiler:
Jormungandr Battalion
Neurothrope
Neurothrope
3x Rippers
3x Rippers
25x Termagants (devourer)
3x Ravenrs (deathspitter, rending claws)
Twisted Helix Battalion
Magus
Patriarch
Primus
20x Acolyte Hybrids (Icon, 8x rock saw)
20x Acolyte Hybrids (Icon, 20x hand flamer)
10x Neophyte Hybrids (2x mining laser)
18 CP, lots of chaff clearing, access to APGITM, Acolyte Bomb, Flamer Bomb.
Primarch is the warlord, giving him the cc buff warlord trait. I pop Broodcoven to give the Primus the increased aura range and the C4AE Magus the C4AE warlord trait for the d3 CP.
For deployment I blip/deploy the Alphus, a Magus, the Neophytes, Iconward, Rippers, one Neurothrope, and the Nexos, for 12 units deployed. I spend 2 CP to tunnel Neurothrope and the Termagants in with the Raveners, and reserve the Primarch, Primus, other Magus, both Kelermorphs, Clamavus, and both Acolyte units.
At this point I have spent 3/18 CP and got back 1d3, leaving me with at least 16.
Turn 1 I Perfect Ambush the Sanctus, plink with the mining lasers and snipers, and hope that I have enough models on the field/have screened and hidden my units well enought that I survive to turn 2. The Iconward hangs out next to the Neophytes to help them not run. The Alphus can buff either then mining lasers or the Sanctus, depending on priority targets.I have 40 infantry models in 4 squads, 9 Ripper bases, and 6 characters on the table.
Turn 2 I tunnel in the Rippers with the Termagants and a Neurothrope. The 'gaunts really want to be in synapse for the alpha strike and keeping them fearless is useful, and the Neurothrope provides useful Tyranid powers. Smite/Catylist the turn he lands, and Horror the turn the Primarch comes in. I have almost never done a devilgaunt drop that didn't shoot twice, so 2 CP to double tap.
Depending on targets and screens I either bring in the the flamer Acolytes or drop the Saw bomb (saw Acolytes + characters) or both. I expect that in general the 'gaunts and the flamers come down turn 2, with the Kelermorphs, and the 'cc units come down turn 3. I expect to use 5 CP on the two drops, plus a reroll somewhere in there, which puts me at 8 CP, with one regenerated, so 9.
I'm now at turn 3, with a lot of frail but hard hitting units on the table. If I did enough damage on my drops I expect to be mopping up. If not, I'm going to be picking up a lot of models as I scramble to make points. I have enough CP to try to pick up a unit and drop it again, giving me flexibility.
Your list looks pretty solid. if you don't mind I have just a couple of suggestions to help improve it.
I'd chuck the nexos into the Twisted helix detachment as he will regen CP's on 5's if you have a Primus and/or clamavus on the table, he doesn't need to be in the C4AE detachment.
I'd then chuck the magus from the twisted helix detachment into the C4AE detachment and swap him for the Iconward. The Broodcoven strat doesn't stipulate the three he's must be in the same detachment even post FAQ and this way you can still do the three warlord traits you'd like but now the Twisted Helix detachment can become a Broodsurge detachment from Vigilus for an additional 2CP. From my experience so far this will ensure that the acolytes WILL make combat which is where most of your damage will be coming from by the looks of things.
But its also been my experience so far that Rusted Claw is better for the survival of our squishy acolytes than Twisted Helix, but it's a tough choice as +1 strength is also great....if they can get the charge.
Hope this helps and best of luck!
The C4AE started out as a vanguard, thus the Nexos in it, I forgot to swap him into the Twisted Helix when I expanded to 3 battalions. Good catch.
I don't have Vigilus and won't be getting it till next month. A Broodsurge would be good, I just can't run it at the moment. Note that I'm already running a C4AE Magus, so getting rid of the Helix one would free up some points.
Right now I'm inclined for Helix Acolytes because of the ability to delete a knight on the charge. I think I hard counter the Castilian + loyal 32 build and an viable against a wide range of opponents.
What do you think of dropping the Iconward? He makes a lot of sense keeping large blobs of Rusted Claw Neophytes alive, but I'm not sure about his value with the small squads I'm running. 10 GEQ only really lasts till they get looked at, 6+++ or no.
I could tease points around a bit, drop him, look to have some points for summoning. Hmmm. The magic number for 'gaunts is 20, if I drop the Iconward and trim to 20 'gaunts that leaves 93 points to build summoning units with. Or I could bulk up some cutters or drills on the flamer Acolytes.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Trying to keep clutter down with spoiler tags is making the quotes weird, so I'm just going to reply to myself instead of fighting with it on mobile.
I really like the concept of holding 100 or so points in "summoning reserve". The ability to pull the unit you need on the turn you need it is very powerful.
The downside is that you have those points not in play for most of the game, you have to have a squishy character survive to use them, and you need to save 5 CP for late game in a CP hungry army to get it to go off.
The upside is a 4th to 6th turn drop, something most other armies cannot do, with a medium power unit tailored to the mission. 10 Acolytes are PL 6, and can bring 2 heavies + flamers at 100 points. Both versions of the assassin are PL 3, as is the Kelermorph. Neophytes are PL6 for 11+.
So, you have the ability to have 30 or so models hanging out waiting for you to need them. Key character needs deleted? Kelermorph or Sanctus. GEQ on an objective? Flame on. Annoying tank/MC your army can't reach? Have some rock saws. Objective that both sides are ignoring? Neophytes with a mining laser.
This is also about the only use for the rock cutter that I can think of. Rock cutters don't want to be in big units, because nothing that the special ability is useful against can survive 4 rock saws in the first place. The role for rock cutters appears to be to splash in your small Acolyte units, but Acolytes dont want to be small units. I can see taking the cutter over the saw in flame units, on the logic that two thirds of them will be dead by the time they get to charge something, but other than that summoning is all I see for them.
Thanks Arson. Also when setting up blips and/or placing units underground do you have to tell your opponent which units are starting as blips and which are going underground?
OK well that's clearing things up a lot. If you haven't played ITC missions at all then you will have trouble relating to where I am coming from. You keep assuming secondaries are something simple to achieve that's not the core problem. The whole issue with GSC in ITC is they hand over VP's so easily it's nuts, while the enemy will tailor their army so it doesn't give away secondaries. That means we are stuck trying to grab board control objectives like recon. If I go for recon I need to be in 4 quarters with 4 units for 4 turns to max it out. Thats a long ass time to survive with some of the lists out there.
Let me break it down for you another way, when making an army for the ITC format, you can't just consider how you will kill enemy units, thats only part of it. You also need to look through the entire list of secondaries and tailor your own army so that it doesn't give up those VP's at all, or so it short changes the opponent. So for example one might intentionally run only 3 units with 7 or more wounds so the enemy can only ever get 3 points for big game hunter instead of the maximum 4. If your list does allow for 4 of big game hunter you would want those units to be durable as possible. Like take for instance eldar fliers, after hit mods they become quite durable, so not only are they good units but they also become a trap for secondaries.
Our army gives up, butchers bill, reaper, marked for death, head hunter and possibly big game hunter like a bad joke. Since we basically rely on reserves to be mobile and durable we also give up board control easier then you would think in order to try to get into assault. It's easy to say throw away lines like, reserve 75% of your army and crush them at once on turn 2, but any good tournament list with a competent general is going to zone you back and feed you sub-optimal targets in the process.
Look over that DW list I shared and tell me which secondaries you think are easy to get from it. The obvious choices to me are recon, behind enemy lines and ground control. The major issue is not being tabled in 4 turns while you sacrifice your units spreading out to get those. Turn 1 we basically are not scoring them due to reserves, or we do attempt to score those but we now are not removing the loyal 32.
This is why I have asked you to post a list you think would beat the DW army I posted in the ITC format. What secondaries would you go for and how? Will that list still be TAC?
That is why I said assume they're going to get 12 secondaries. Killing eighty GEQ and four units is easy, and there are enough gsc characters running around that they'll get a few of them somewhere during the match.
The flip side is that he also has a bunch of characters and four vet units to kill. The watchmaster, draigo, and the GMNGK all qualify for full Kingslayer points if they're the warlord. If they're not, you either have to accept 11 points and nab an extra round of holding more objectives or go for something a little more awkward like Old School and hope for that last turn kill (it should be pretty achievable to kill a screen unit T1, kill a warlord that's not one of the tough characters, and get something into his DZ). You're going to have to deal with the vet units and his characters anyway.
I wouldn't aim for more than one of the non-murder ones. Recon requires four units, which is doable, but needing to do it on four turns is risky. Behind Enemy Lines is start of your turn (after he gets a lovely chance to kill that unit) and requires four out of the five available turns (since there's not much you can get into his DZ before T1 starts, and on T1 is awkward), so is also iffy. Ground Control is end of game, so it's inherently risky, as you just might not have four units in the right spots (or at all if the game's particularly bloody). ITC obviously wants you to play in a certain way, so why fight it?
How are you giving up board control vs that DW list, though? He wants to (and you said did) castle up to benefit from his auras. If he moves it cuts his firepower in half (and foot marines are speed 6", anyway, so the deathball isn't going anywhere quickly). He can run the guard squads out to nab objectives, zone you back, and/or deny you landing areas, but it's super important to kill them T1 anyway (and getting most of them should be doable with whatever screen clearing mortars/wyverns/etc. you brought to actually be able to DS stuff when the 32 are everywhere). That leaves his beatstick characters, but if they're off holding objectives they're not chopping anything up, so you have the liberty of swarming whichever you want with your superior numbers.
As for a list, I default to four full units of acolytes with saws and flamers (saws obviously aren't useful here, but you need them for knights/vehicles), some BB blobs, the normal slew of characters, and allied officers, objective holders, and mortars/wyverns/whatever your preference is for screen clearance.
I played a game with what I thought was a killer GSC list and I definitely won but it took way too much time. 153 models is a lot to keep track of esp when using 2 different cult creeds. I think we need to check ourselves before any big events to be sure we can run the swarm of models we can easily bring.
Mental onslaught wile very effective takes forever to use esp if they have a way to ignore mortal wounds. I played vs a Kinght/ BA Smashcapt list for practice and this took forever as he poped a 5+++ strat and eventually I rolled a 1 for his 6 and it stopped it after 8ish actual wounds went through (out of like 12 so fairly average).
The trucks/Mining laser Neos were gold and did work. The bikes were great and again did good work. I tryed 2x 20 Brood bros with a Tempister prime for FRFSRF shanaginins and they did well. All our stuff works but make sure you are VERY familiar with your army and if possible use unit trays to speed things up or you will die to time.
I think ally Nidz or guard for some stompy stuff may be needed even if it's just to consolidate some points into effective smaller units.
As annoying as the new infiltrators are I think we should look back to the original intent of this thread and think of some tactics to counter them. Raging wont do any good even though I was extremely salty when I first saw them.
So my first thought was stealers, now they aren't a perfect solution but we may be able to slingshot them depending how the opponent deploys. I can see the major issue with this being against things like Guiliman castles with infiltrators as the outer ring.
Finding a reliable source of damage 2 with reasonable ap isn't easy even with access to allies, we need to find a dissie ravager equivalent...
Hazzer22 wrote: As annoying as the new infiltrators are I think we should look back to the original intent of this thread and think of some tactics to counter them. Raging wont do any good even though I was extremely salty when I first saw them.
So my first thought was stealers, now they aren't a perfect solution but we may be able to slingshot them depending how the opponent deploys. I can see the major issue with this being against things like Guiliman castles with infiltrators as the outer ring.
Finding a reliable source of damage 2 with reasonable ap isn't easy even with access to allies, we need to find a dissie ravager equivalent...
Any suggestions anyone?
Umm Kellermorph......
Crazy Idea a Truck with a unit of 5-9 Acolytes and a Kellermorph. Rush forward (maby even use Perfect ambush on first turn to boos it d6") to get to the offending sniper screen. Then unload on them..... Even if the truck gets popped you still have a good CC unit and the kellermorph to deal with them.
OK well that's clearing things up a lot. If you haven't played ITC missions at all then you will have trouble relating to where I am coming from. You keep assuming secondaries are something simple to achieve that's not the core problem. The whole issue with GSC in ITC is they hand over VP's so easily it's nuts, while the enemy will tailor their army so it doesn't give away secondaries. That means we are stuck trying to grab board control objectives like recon. If I go for recon I need to be in 4 quarters with 4 units for 4 turns to max it out. Thats a long ass time to survive with some of the lists out there.
Let me break it down for you another way, when making an army for the ITC format, you can't just consider how you will kill enemy units, thats only part of it. You also need to look through the entire list of secondaries and tailor your own army so that it doesn't give up those VP's at all, or so it short changes the opponent. So for example one might intentionally run only 3 units with 7 or more wounds so the enemy can only ever get 3 points for big game hunter instead of the maximum 4. If your list does allow for 4 of big game hunter you would want those units to be durable as possible. Like take for instance eldar fliers, after hit mods they become quite durable, so not only are they good units but they also become a trap for secondaries.
Our army gives up, butchers bill, reaper, marked for death, head hunter and possibly big game hunter like a bad joke. Since we basically rely on reserves to be mobile and durable we also give up board control easier then you would think in order to try to get into assault. It's easy to say throw away lines like, reserve 75% of your army and crush them at once on turn 2, but any good tournament list with a competent general is going to zone you back and feed you sub-optimal targets in the process.
Look over that DW list I shared and tell me which secondaries you think are easy to get from it. The obvious choices to me are recon, behind enemy lines and ground control. The major issue is not being tabled in 4 turns while you sacrifice your units spreading out to get those. Turn 1 we basically are not scoring them due to reserves, or we do attempt to score those but we now are not removing the loyal 32.
This is why I have asked you to post a list you think would beat the DW army I posted in the ITC format. What secondaries would you go for and how? Will that list still be TAC?
That is why I said assume they're going to get 12 secondaries. Killing eighty GEQ and four units is easy, and there are enough gsc characters running around that they'll get a few of them somewhere during the match.
The flip side is that he also has a bunch of characters and four vet units to kill. The watchmaster, draigo, and the GMNGK all qualify for full Kingslayer points if they're the warlord. If they're not, you either have to accept 11 points and nab an extra round of holding more objectives or go for something a little more awkward like Old School and hope for that last turn kill (it should be pretty achievable to kill a screen unit T1, kill a warlord that's not one of the tough characters, and get something into his DZ). You're going to have to deal with the vet units and his characters anyway.
I wouldn't aim for more than one of the non-murder ones. Recon requires four units, which is doable, but needing to do it on four turns is risky. Behind Enemy Lines is start of your turn (after he gets a lovely chance to kill that unit) and requires four out of the five available turns (since there's not much you can get into his DZ before T1 starts, and on T1 is awkward), so is also iffy. Ground Control is end of game, so it's inherently risky, as you just might not have four units in the right spots (or at all if the game's particularly bloody). ITC obviously wants you to play in a certain way, so why fight it?
How are you giving up board control vs that DW list, though? He wants to (and you said did) castle up to benefit from his auras. If he moves it cuts his firepower in half (and foot marines are speed 6", anyway, so the deathball isn't going anywhere quickly). He can run the guard squads out to nab objectives, zone you back, and/or deny you landing areas, but it's super important to kill them T1 anyway (and getting most of them should be doable with whatever screen clearing mortars/wyverns/etc. you brought to actually be able to DS stuff when the 32 are everywhere). That leaves his beatstick characters, but if they're off holding objectives they're not chopping anything up, so you have the liberty of swarming whichever you want with your superior numbers.
As for a list, I default to four full units of acolytes with saws and flamers (saws obviously aren't useful here, but you need them for knights/vehicles), some BB blobs, the normal slew of characters, and allied officers, objective holders, and mortars/wyverns/whatever your preference is for screen clearance.
Assuming they will just grab 12 secondaries is like forfeiting the game. You essentially are playing for the tie at that point only the 1:15:00 of time on your side of the clock is going to kill you because your deploying and moving 150+ models and removing casualties. That's another factor in this problem, he gets all his points efficiently on the clock and in the early rounds, while I need to spend precious time removing bubble wrap and trying to get into assault in the the later turns.
not sure why you don't understand how he can grab board control. He can't grab 100% of the table, but he doesn't need to. As a guard player myself I can tell you how comically easy it is for a few infantry squads and commanders to zone back the table an annoying amount. Those guardsmen are not easily removed for us BTW. Run some math, a 10 man infantry unit with prepared positions or take cover would require 18 mortars to kill or 4 wyverns... that's terrible and it still leaves 20 infantry lol. This is why I keep asking you to post a list rather then give this vague abstract advice. Telling me to just kill his 4 vet squads and all the GK characters is absurd advice btw, you may as well saved your breath and just told me to table him because that's what that amounts to.
I appreciate your positivity, but I think GSC really is starting at a huge disadvantage against certain lists in the ITC format which sucks for me. In the CA18 missions I think we are incredibly impressive as an army which is great. I am sure it is possible to pull a win in the format, but playing 3+ timed games in a row with 200 models in that condition, against those odds just doesn't seem very appealing.
Hazzer22 wrote: As annoying as the new infiltrators are I think we should look back to the original intent of this thread and think of some tactics to counter them. Raging wont do any good even though I was extremely salty when I first saw them.
So my first thought was stealers, now they aren't a perfect solution but we may be able to slingshot them depending how the opponent deploys. I can see the major issue with this being against things like Guiliman castles with infiltrators as the outer ring.
Finding a reliable source of damage 2 with reasonable ap isn't easy even with access to allies, we need to find a dissie ravager equivalent...
Any suggestions anyone?
Umm Kellermorph......
Crazy Idea a Truck with a unit of 5-9 Acolytes and a Kellermorph. Rush forward (maby even use Perfect ambush on first turn to boos it d6") to get to the offending sniper screen. Then unload on them..... Even if the truck gets popped you still have a good CC unit and the kellermorph to deal with them.
Unfortunately the kelermorph doesn't do the job from DS because they screen out 12". But maybe in a truck, problem is they're just so squishy and someone will obviously target a transport with a character in it, and even if it does get to them a kelermorph only averages 2-3 dead primaris a turn and that's without cover!
If the Heavy Mortar would do 2D6 hits instead of just D6, I would consider it. But Brood Brothers weapons teams with mortars are just superior otherwise.
So if you want to run a Ridgerunner I would recommend it with MSL and Flare laucher for all around things (or escort bikes) or Heavy Mining Laser and Survey Augur for big game hunting.
Allied brood brothers with plasma and autocannons seems like the best answer to primaris Marines to me. That or executioner tank commanders if you're bringing a significant number of vehicles.
DoomMouse wrote: Allied brood brothers with plasma and autocannons seems like the best answer to primaris Marines to me. That or executioner tank commanders if you're bringing a significant number of vehicles.
Interesting you say this, there's some strong indicators that mech lists might become viable again, if you look at the results from the Prague open chimera spam did really well, now this is ETC and ITC is a whole different beast but Brood Bros in chimeras with supporting executioner commanders is an idea?...
DoomMouse wrote: Allied brood brothers with plasma and autocannons seems like the best answer to primaris Marines to me. That or executioner tank commanders if you're bringing a significant number of vehicles.
Interesting you say this, there's some strong indicators that mech lists might become viable again, if you look at the results from the Prague open chimera spam did really well, now this is ETC and ITC is a whole different beast but Brood Bros in chimeras with supporting executioner commanders is an idea?...
It'd be a huge boon to a mech guard list to have some decent counter-punch units to murder the units that run up to tag tanks. I can say that from experience running mech guard! Being able to kill something like shining Spears in melee would be great.
It's a bit of a trade off though, the regimental tactics and strats, specialist detachments and 'old grudges' warlord trait really boost a guard mech force.
Jrandom wrote: Here is a list that took 2nd place at a major.
Yeah I've heard people mention this, namely chapter tactics podcast, seems like a good sign but I can't help but feel that this win might have been partially due to the currently unknown nature of gsc...I honestly hope not but only time will tell
Jrandom wrote: Here is a list that took 2nd place at a major.
Very intrestring list but did he rely on the dice luck to get Acolyte hybrids and abberants in?
Probably one got D6 stratagem, really would like to see a game with this list, really like it.
Jrandom wrote: Here is a list that took 2nd place at a major.
Very intrestring list but did he rely on the dice luck to get Acolyte hybrids and abberants in?
Probably one got D6 stratagem, really would like to see a game with this list, really like it.
Agreed. I faced a double castellan + gallant and rusty 17 last week with 2 acolyte blobs the same as this guys and mine were C4AE, had a clamavus nearby and brrodsurge and I still failed both 7" rerollable charges (82% chance each...) so there's no way this was reliable across 5 games.
Assuming they will just grab 12 secondaries is like forfeiting the game. You essentially are playing for the tie at that point only the 1:15:00 of time on your side of the clock is going to kill you because your deploying and moving 150+ models and removing casualties. That's another factor in this problem, he gets all his points efficiently on the clock and in the early rounds, while I need to spend precious time removing bubble wrap and trying to get into assault in the the later turns.
not sure why you don't understand how he can grab board control. He can't grab 100% of the table, but he doesn't need to. As a guard player myself I can tell you how comically easy it is for a few infantry squads and commanders to zone back the table an annoying amount. Those guardsmen are not easily removed for us BTW. Run some math, a 10 man infantry unit with prepared positions or take cover would require 18 mortars to kill or 4 wyverns... that's terrible and it still leaves 20 infantry lol. This is why I keep asking you to post a list rather then give this vague abstract advice. Telling me to just kill his 4 vet squads and all the GK characters is absurd advice btw, you may as well saved your breath and just told me to table him because that's what that amounts to.
I appreciate your positivity, but I think GSC really is starting at a huge disadvantage against certain lists in the ITC format which sucks for me. In the CA18 missions I think we are incredibly impressive as an army which is great. I am sure it is possible to pull a win in the format, but playing 3+ timed games in a row with 200 models in that condition, against those odds just doesn't seem very appealing.
Yeah, it takes 18 mortars to kill a squad, but it's not like that breaks the bank or that they stop being useful after T1 (they still do 7 wounds a turn to marine equivalents and 3 or 4 to 2+). A BB blob with FRFSRF that "They Came From Below"-ed forward (officer double moves up, then orders them) also wipes a squad (10 dead with strat for cover), and you can have up to three of them do so, depending on what you need. You'll lose the BB chaff in return, but that's what it's there for.
Then you go in for the meaty units, as described (and assuming dice are relatively average each acolyte squad should kill a vet squad, getting crippled in return). You do have to basically aim to kill all his infantry and a couple tough characters, but you can accomplish what you need to. I'm not saying it's going to be an easy sweep or anything, but it's doable. If the dice go against you and he gets auspex off and wipes a squad or you fail a few more charges than you should, you could easily be toast, though. No real way around that, it's a glass cannon army that relies on a few key rolls to succeed.
There's also not really a way around a horde army having lots of guys to activate. I'd definitely suggest movement trays, pre-counted dice lots, and plenty of practice if a clock's involved, but nothing's going to stop it being a lot to keep track of.
Jrandom wrote: Here is a list that took 2nd place at a major.
Very intrestring list but did he rely on the dice luck to get Acolyte hybrids and abberants in?
Probably burned 3 CP turn 2 and 3 to move 1d6" before charging a Rock Saw brood and the Abominants, and 2 CP to get the big flamer unit within 3".
5 Rock Saws likely dies on overwatch so he must had something successfully absorb it for them (Voidwyrm Patriarch), or manage to cast Mass Hypnosis.
Jrandom wrote: Here is a list that took 2nd place at a major.
Very intrestring list but did he rely on the dice luck to get Acolyte hybrids and abberants in?
Probably burned 3 CP turn 2 and 3 to move 1d6" before charging a Rock Saw brood and the Abominants, and 2 CP to get the big flamer unit within 3".
5 Rock Saws likely dies on overwatch so he must had something successfully absorb it for them (Voidwyrm Patriarch), or manage to cast Mass Hypnosis.
But he has 3 big units to DS, perfect ambush can only really happen 2 turns unless he was DSing first turn which I would assume he wasn't as it was pre-FAQ and even if he was it leaves the abominant on his own.
Likely a stupid situation, but, an idea that is currently doing the rounds is that the new Infiltrators can “destroy” blip marker units by preventing them from being setup.
Now, I don’t have the GSC codex, so can someone provide the wording regarding how a unit is selected and then setup from an ambush marker please? Are they setup as if reinforcements/reserves or are they considered to just be “revealed” as always being there?
I’m very much doubting that it is intended that the new Infiltrator Marines can do this, but, want to try and clear it up asap to prevent too many people getting carried away by the idea.
Apologies if this has already been covered and i missed it.
So with infiltrators destroying a blip - I think it's possible, but unlikely to happen.
Blips must be placed in deployment zone and first model deployed .just be within1" of the blip and the rest must be placed in coherency within deployment zone. New infiltrators can be placed 9" away from enemy deployment zone and prevent units appearing within 12". So my first impression is that maybe if the gsc player puts the blip right on the edge of the deployment zone then the infiltrators are 9" away and might prevent the first model from being deployed and breaking the blip. This could be avoided by putting blips an inch or two back from the edge of the deployment zone. Also I'm not sure how the infiltrators rule would interact with the gscfaq about units in blips being counted as on the table. Might need a closer reading of codex,faq and infiltrator rule.
Kapitan Montag wrote: So with infiltrators destroying a blip - I think it's possible, but unlikely to happen.
Blips must be placed in deployment zone and first model deployed .just be within1" of the blip and the rest must be placed in coherency within deployment zone. New infiltrators can be placed 9" away from enemy deployment zone and prevent units appearing within 12". So my first impression is that maybe if the gsc player puts the blip right on the edge of the deployment zone then the infiltrators are 9" away and might prevent the first model from being deployed and breaking the blip. This could be avoided by putting blips an inch or two back from the edge of the deployment zone. Also I'm not sure how the infiltrators rule would interact with the gscfaq about units in blips being counted as on the table. Might need a closer reading of codex,faq and infiltrator rule.
Edit ninja'd thanks luke1705
Ok, done some extra reading and a friend sent me the relevant bit of the codex regarding blips.
Also note, that the FAQ for ambush markers only relates to the fact that they count as being on the table for determining how many points/units you can then place into other “off the table” deep strike options.
Codex looks like it explicitly states that revealing a unit via am ambush marker counts them as arriving from reinforcements, though they can still move etc.
It looks like blips will get affected by the omi-scanner, so it’ll be a case of ensuring only fake/disposable units are placed on the deployment edge, or to hold everything back 3” (or 9-15” if you’re going second). Alternatively, could just not use the blip markers for certain units.
How good is the idea to use a horde walking style army with 150-200 models and rusted claw +1 to Save?
I think this would make a decent horde army, which is much tougher than most horde armies against anti-horde weapons with their 4+ Save.
Astmeister wrote: How good is the idea to use a horde walking style army with 150-200 models and rusted claw +1 to Save?
I think this would make a decent horde army, which is much tougher than most horde armies against anti-horde weapons with their 4+ Save.
Astmeister wrote: How good is the idea to use a horde walking style army with 150-200 models and rusted claw +1 to Save?
I think this would make a decent horde army, which is much tougher than most horde armies against anti-horde weapons with their 4+ Save.
Blue: in ambush..
Cyan: deployed but put in ambush after (stratagem).
Would do amazing in CA18 missions, in kill point centered formats though it's not going to do much.
It would be hilarious to watch this verse a tuned admech list with 1-2 units of castellens and cawl. I can tell you first hand rusted claw hates phosphor blasters. They can pretty much cut through all that in a few turns. Just one unit in shooty mode with the +1 to hit strat kills 85 in a volley, 101 with wrath of mars.
Hello everyone, just got a quick rules question I would like to ask regarding the gsc codex and brood brothers.
So in a detachment if I take the regular Brood brother infantry squad (The gsc codex entry) and mix them in with other gsc units, do I still get full cp etc?.
Is it only if you take units outside of the codex and give them the brood brother keyword that the negative effects apply?
Jrandom wrote: Here is a list that took 2nd place at a major.
What major and format? Can we get the other lists?
It was the 7th annual Barrie Bash, an ITC Major. Someone with a subscription to the Best Coast Parrings App could provide more lists. I don’t currently subscribe (but I would if my army was ready for the field).
If I was running a horde list I’d probably take Twisted Helix instead. With a Clamavus and Broodsurge detachment warlord your neophytes and acolytes are trucking along at rerollable +3 advances. That’s comparable to Kraken Genestealers, but stronger and cheaper with shooting added.
Astmeister wrote: How good is the idea to use a horde walking style army with 150-200 models and rusted claw +1 to Save?
I think this would make a decent horde army, which is much tougher than most horde armies against anti-horde weapons with their 4+ Save.
Blue: in ambush..
Cyan: deployed but put in ambush after (stratagem).
Would do amazing in CA18 missions, in kill point centered formats though it's not going to do much.
It would be hilarious to watch this verse a tuned admech list with 1-2 units of castellens and cawl. I can tell you first hand rusted claw hates phosphor blasters. They can pretty much cut through all that in a few turns. Just one unit in shooty mode with the +1 to hit strat kills 85 in a volley, 101 with wrath of mars.
I believe castellans can get locked in close combat, right? 'perfect ambush' in combination with 'laying in wait' and maybe with 'mass hypnosis' and they're done. But that kind of shooting does suck, though. On the other hand, not a lot of 'winning' ad mech list in my area...
Badablack wrote: If I was running a horde list I’d probably take Twisted Helix instead. With a Clamavus and Broodsurge detachment warlord your neophytes and acolytes are trucking along at rerollable +3 advances. That’s comparable to Kraken Genestealers, but stronger and cheaper with shooting added.
That's only +2" (Clamavus +1, Broodsurge Iconward +1) but I agree 7" charges with a reroll are very doable esp with multiple medium sized units.
Shinzra wrote:Hello everyone, just got a quick rules question I would like to ask regarding the gsc codex and brood brothers.
So in a detachment if I take the regular Brood brother infantry squad (The gsc codex entry) and mix them in with other gsc units, do I still get full cp etc?.
Is it only if you take units outside of the codex and give them the brood brother keyword that the negative effects apply?
Correct. The restrictions on command points are for Brood Brothers detachments taken from Codex: Astra Militarum. (Check page 108).
That's only +2" (Clamavus +1, Broodsurge Iconward +1) but I agree 7" charges with a reroll are very doable esp with multiple medium sized units.
The Auger of The Insurgent trait is reroll charge or advance rolls for friendly Deliverance Broodsurge models in range. It's the Insidious Mindwyrm trait from Anointed Throng that adds +1''. Badablack is getting +3'' advance from the Clamavus' +1'' and Twisted Helix +2''.
Astmeister wrote: How good is the idea to use a horde walking style army with 150-200 models and rusted claw +1 to Save?
I think this would make a decent horde army, which is much tougher than most horde armies against anti-horde weapons with their 4+ Save.
Blue: in ambush..
Cyan: deployed but put in ambush after (stratagem).
Would do amazing in CA18 missions, in kill point centered formats though it's not going to do much.
It would be hilarious to watch this verse a tuned admech list with 1-2 units of castellens and cawl. I can tell you first hand rusted claw hates phosphor blasters. They can pretty much cut through all that in a few turns. Just one unit in shooty mode with the +1 to hit strat kills 85 in a volley, 101 with wrath of mars.
I believe castellans can get locked in close combat, right? 'perfect ambush' in combination with 'laying in wait' and maybe with 'mass hypnosis' and they're done. But that kind of shooting does suck, though. On the other hand, not a lot of 'winning' ad mech list in my area...
Well keep in mind a unit of 6 with cawl is only 850, so they can easily drop in a Knight castellan or multiple gallants and a guard detachment to screen and provide CP all with an assassin sprinkled in just to be a dink. A calexus would make Mass Hyp a warp charge 9. The guard screen would keep them unengaged for a while as well.
I think people need to get used to running up against assassins. This doesn't just apply to us btw. 85 points ans 1 cp provides a crap load of utility.
Badablack wrote:If I was running a horde list I’d probably take Twisted Helix instead. With a Clamavus and Broodsurge detachment warlord your neophytes and acolytes are trucking along at rerollable +3 advances. That’s comparable to Kraken Genestealers, but stronger and cheaper with shooting added.
It depends, the armylist I posted, is more focussed on brood brother units in combination with a possible 9 orders for FRSRF and/or 'move move move'. Removing as much enemy infantry as possible and going for the objectives while ignoring the other stuff. It takes to much time to go into big close combat battles with 300+ models. The 120 neophytes rusted claws with icon 6+ feel no pain just needs to soak up damage.
Red Corsair wrote:
Well keep in mind a unit of 6 with cawl is only 850, so they can easily drop in a Knight castellan or multiple gallants and a guard detachment to screen and provide CP all with an assassin sprinkled in just to be a dink. A calexus would make Mass Hyp a warp charge 9. The guard screen would keep them unengaged for a while as well.
I think people need to get used to running up against assassins. This doesn't just apply to us btw. 85 points ans 1 cp provides a crap load of utility.
Best way to deal with something like this is;
1: first put units in reserve and wait for the enemy too see where the deploy. Even with 'dawn of war' deployment if the robots get deployed in the exact middle then it's still possible to deploy in the outside corners staying outside 36 inch range or in cover. (did this same trick once against custodes bikes).
2: 'the came from below' and 'scanners decoys' gives you 6 ambush markers mid field that you could pull away/not use and simply deploy in the outside corners.
3: from that point on it's just about removing screens and/or taking objectives until you find a hole to take down the robots. I probably reserve points for 'summoning' because then you could summon 20 brood brothers with a vox caster and start removing screens turn 1.
I do play tournaments that focus mostly on objectives and not kill points. A castellan robot unit thats needs to stay stil to be most effective with knights and a few astra militarum units is not the best setting for objective grabbing against 300+ models. I could also use lurk 'in the shadows' to protect a specific unit (let's say on an objective) from getting targeted by the robots. That's also the problem with that much firepower coming from a single unit, you need to divide you shot's. I could also block the 'full overwatch' stratagem with 'a plan generations in the making' but at this rate I'am out CP at the end of turn 2.
The assassins are becoming a 'auto take' for most imperium armies and need to be dealt with. It's possible to delay the 'assassin summoning' with 'a plan generations in the making' but that's an expensive one.
Any advice on this list.
For a fluffy tournament with max 2 detachments and 3 choices of units.
Abberants and abominant will do a regular charge, with saws coming D6 stratagem and flamers 3 inch one.
Rest will run around the board and being annoying while bikes hopefully get close and kill something with drive by.
Araablane wrote: Any advice on this list.
For a fluffy tournament with max 2 detachments and 3 choices of units.
Abberants and abominant will do a regular charge, with saws coming D6 stratagem and flamers 3 inch one.
Rest will run around the board and being annoying while bikes hopefully get close and kill something with drive by.
I think he wants/needs the Patriarch for Bloodcoven, I would drop the Abominant and the Alphus and take a bloodsurge detachment instead and add an Iconward. I would also drop the sanctus and take a 2nd kelermorph. Sanctus is only good against certain armies.
Yes, idea was for the Broodcoven but the points cost to make it work feels little bad.
I have no real way of buffing Patriarch and cant guarantee a reliable charge on him, that's why im not sure.
Jackal Alphus will buff the bikes with drive by explosions, making them hit on 2s.
Of course I would auto include a second Kellermorph but its a fluffy tournament, so a second would be quite veird.
Abominant is to make the abberants reliably charge in without using the stratagem.
Sanctus is just cool, being able to shoot twice at the first turn is so cool
With the clavacus and the iconward he'll have +1 charge, with a re-roll f you take the bloodsurge detachment/warlord trait and he can avoid overwatch for your abberrants. You can also give the Iconward the +1 ld relic and get the patriarch up to ld12 mental onslaught (13 if you take the ld warlord trait).
Thepatriarch wrote: With the clavacus and the iconward he'll have +1 charge, with a re-roll f you take the bloodsurge detachment/warlord trait and he can avoid overwatch for your abberrants. You can also give the Iconward the +1 ld relic and get the patriarch up to ld12 mental onslaught (13 if you take the ld warlord trait).
Are you talking about the Patriarch?
Yes, i can give him pretty good LD for mental onslaught but he cant reroll charges because it works only with Vigilus units.
So going to need a 7 inch charge roll or he will be all alone being a target.
Thepatriarch wrote: With the clavacus and the iconward he'll have +1 charge, with a re-roll f you take the bloodsurge detachment/warlord trait and he can avoid overwatch for your abberrants. You can also give the Iconward the +1 ld relic and get the patriarch up to ld12 mental onslaught (13 if you take the ld warlord trait).
Are you talking about the Patriarch?
Yes, i can give him pretty good LD for mental onslaught but he cant reroll charges because it works only with Vigilus units.
So going to need a 7 inch charge roll or he will be all alone being a target.
I may be missing something but if you have the patriarch in your army he must be your warlord, meaning if he is your warlord then neither the acolyte iconward or an abominant can take the warlord traits from vigius. Someone correct me if I’m wrong on that as id love to run a patriarch and give the reroll charge warlord trait to an iconward if it’s possible.
Thepatriarch wrote: With the clavacus and the iconward he'll have +1 charge, with a re-roll f you take the bloodsurge detachment/warlord trait and he can avoid overwatch for your abberrants. You can also give the Iconward the +1 ld relic and get the patriarch up to ld12 mental onslaught (13 if you take the ld warlord trait).
Are you talking about the Patriarch?
Yes, i can give him pretty good LD for mental onslaught but he cant reroll charges because it works only with Vigilus units.
So going to need a 7 inch charge roll or he will be all alone being a target.
I may be missing something but if you have the patriarch in your army he must be your warlord, meaning if he is your warlord then neither the acolyte iconward or an abominant can take the warlord traits from vigius. Someone correct me if I’m wrong on that as id love to run a patriarch and give the reroll charge warlord trait to an iconward if it’s possible.
It is possible. Vigilus has a 1CP strategem called 'Field Commander' which allows you to give a character a Warlord Trait from the detachments. So you can have both.
Moreover, because you can have a Brood Coven, you can then have four characters with Warlord traits from the GSC codex!
Thepatriarch wrote: With the clavacus and the iconward he'll have +1 charge, with a re-roll f you take the bloodsurge detachment/warlord trait and he can avoid overwatch for your abberrants. You can also give the Iconward the +1 ld relic and get the patriarch up to ld12 mental onslaught (13 if you take the ld warlord trait).
Are you talking about the Patriarch?
Yes, i can give him pretty good LD for mental onslaught but he cant reroll charges because it works only with Vigilus units.
So going to need a 7 inch charge roll or he will be all alone being a target.
I may be missing something but if you have the patriarch in your army he must be your warlord, meaning if he is your warlord then neither the acolyte iconward or an abominant can take the warlord traits from vigius. Someone correct me if I’m wrong on that as id love to run a patriarch and give the reroll charge warlord trait to an iconward if it’s possible.
It is possible. Vigilus has a 1CP strategem called 'Field Commander' which allows you to give a character a Warlord Trait from the detachments. So you can have both.
Moreover, because you can have a Brood Coven, you can then have four characters with Warlord traits from the GSC codex!
Ahh ok I see, thanks! So for 4 x warlord traits the cost will be 3cp? Ie one for the broodcoven, 1 for gaining access to the vigilus formation and 1 for the extra trait from vigulus?
Thepatriarch wrote: With the clavacus and the iconward he'll have +1 charge, with a re-roll f you take the bloodsurge detachment/warlord trait and he can avoid overwatch for your abberrants. You can also give the Iconward the +1 ld relic and get the patriarch up to ld12 mental onslaught (13 if you take the ld warlord trait).
Are you talking about the Patriarch?
Yes, i can give him pretty good LD for mental onslaught but he cant reroll charges because it works only with Vigilus units.
So going to need a 7 inch charge roll or he will be all alone being a target.
I may be missing something but if you have the patriarch in your army he must be your warlord, meaning if he is your warlord then neither the acolyte iconward or an abominant can take the warlord traits from vigius. Someone correct me if I’m wrong on that as id love to run a patriarch and give the reroll charge warlord trait to an iconward if it’s possible.
It is possible. Vigilus has a 1CP strategem called 'Field Commander' which allows you to give a character a Warlord Trait from the detachments. So you can have both.
Moreover, because you can have a Brood Coven, you can then have four characters with Warlord traits from the GSC codex!
Ahh ok I see, thanks! So for 4 x warlord traits the cost will be 3cp? Ie one for the broodcoven, 1 for gaining access to the vigilus formation and 1 for the extra trait from vigulus?
That's right! Is it worth it? Yes it is.
My most frequent set up:
Patriarch (actual Warlord): Biomorph Adaptation
Primus: Alien Majesty
Magus: Inscrutable Cunning if I take a 4AE detachment, otherwise Focus of Adoration (but I don't think it overly matters)
Acolyte Iconward (Field Commander): Augur of the Insurgent
I think that we have pretty good warlord traits all things considered, and that extra punch on the Patriarch, re-rolling Acolyte charges, and +1 to hit from the Primus at 9" range (so he doesn't need to make his charge after deep striking, even if the Acolytes do) is just amazing! And, if relevant, D3 extra command points are nice (otherwise I don't think anything is great on the Magus. I take Focus of Adoration, but (s)he's never been charged. As GSC, we tend to pick where fights happen.
And yes, you can then take an Annointed Throng and get yet another warlord trait for your Abominant! And if Vigilus II has more specialist detachments for GSC (which it damn well better), then even more chances for fun!
So, the Achilles Ridgerunner. I love the model and it fits the theme I'm going for with my army, but I'm struggling to find a use for it. It's not survivable enough to make suicide runs into enemy territory and doesn't have the right weapon options to offer close support to the bikers, which are the two roles that Ork buggies can fill. The scout move is a waste of time in a GSC army since it requires the unit to use visible deployment. The only role I can find which might have some merit is to load it up with the unpopular choices - heavy mortar and survey augur - and keep it hidden at the back to winkle enemy units out of cover. But that seems like a huge waste for a fast vehicle.
My instinct is that the points and the fast attack slot are better spent on a couple or Plasma or Autocannon sentinels, which is a shame as that's more expensive and less interesting from a modelling point of view.
Anyone else found anything interesting to do with the Ridgerunner?
The ridgerunner seems designed to snipe out vehicles hiding behind cover. It benefits from all your +hit buffs and stratagems, so with the scout move you can zoom it into position where it can pop nearly anything with that heavy mining laser. Of course the moment anyone looks at it hard it will die, but that’s the genestealer cult life.
I’ve been running the Abominant with the relic that gives +hit and mortal wounds to enemies that miss him, and that does some serious work if you can get him into melee fast. It’s better than his sledgehammer relic for sure.
Thrund wrote: So, the Achilles Ridgerunner. I love the model and it fits the theme I'm going for with my army, but I'm struggling to find a use for it. It's not survivable enough to make suicide runs into enemy territory and doesn't have the right weapon options to offer close support to the bikers, which are the two roles that Ork buggies can fill. The scout move is a waste of time in a GSC army since it requires the unit to use visible deployment. The only role I can find which might have some merit is to load it up with the unpopular choices - heavy mortar and survey augur - and keep it hidden at the back to winkle enemy units out of cover. But that seems like a huge waste for a fast vehicle.
My instinct is that the points and the fast attack slot are better spent on a couple or Plasma or Autocannon sentinels, which is a shame as that's more expensive and less interesting from a modelling point of view.
Anyone else found anything interesting to do with the Ridgerunner?
I'm currently entertaining two schools of thought regarding them.
1. Heavy Mining Laser configuration alongside Goliath Trucks for a threat-overload style list. Both vehicles can be fielded in vast quantities and both have similar vulnerabilities (mostly mid-strength high rate-of-fire guns with D2 - single-shot Lascannons and their ilk are not especially effective since they are "overpaying" for the ability to wound on a 3+ and some of the damage can be mitigated via Rugged Construction/Flare Launchers). Not much nuance, just flood the board with vehicle hulls.
2. Possibly use the cheap configuration to slingshot large Jackal units forward turn 1 for chaff clearing. For 46 points points less than the ever-popular Swarmlord + 20 Kraken Genestealers, you can get 2 Mortar/Flare Ridgerunners + 24 Atalan Jackals and a Jackal Alphus. The total threat range of the Bikes when bolstered by Flare Launchers is fairly similar to the Kraken Genestealers double-moving with Swarmy (20'' + 12'' for shotguns, vs 16 + ~8-10' for 'stealers) but you get 2 units up in the opponent's lines on the first turn instead of 1 unit and have 48 T4 5+ wounds protected by a -1 to hit vs 20 T4 5+ wounds. If you are willing to pay a bit more than Swarmy + 'Stealers could go for 3 full squads of Jackals and 3 Ridgerunners for three aggressive units for the opponent to deal with first turn, or maybe even four if you bring a Deliverance Broodsurge squad in Goliath (could Psychic Stimulus one of the bike squads to take overwatch for said squad or lock down two targets first turn).
For such , I'd probably deploy the Ridgerunners out of line of sight and have the bikes start as blips. If I had first turn, the Ridgerunners would scout move out of cover to position themselves in range to support the bikes, while if I were going second they would stay put and use their natural move on my turn instead. At that point, the bikes would be slung up the board and the Alphus would move up with the Ridgerunners screening her (she needs to be within 12'' of the bikes and has a 14'' movement, so she should have no trouble getting into range). At a minimum, the opponent will be boxed in their own deployment zone for a turn and ideally will have their screens compromised for the assault elements to follow.
Rusted Claw is obviously going to be the favored creed for this purpose since bikes can shoot as normal with their shotguns after advancing and are a bit more obnoxious to remove, but Hive Cult or 4-Armed Emperor offer a bit too. Hive Cult's Chilling Efficiency provides another +1 to hit effect for clearing out the chaff that can affect the Ridgerunners and 4-Armed Emperor adds another inch of movement for the bikes.
Also I will add, the Achilles is a very squat model. I haven't had a chance to compare it to my terrain collection but I'd be willing to bet that it gets at least 50% obstruction from an Aegis Defense Line. Getting them out of line of sight should be fairly easy compared to most vehicles, they are barely taller than most troops.
Thepatriarch wrote: With the clavacus and the iconward he'll have +1 charge, with a re-roll f you take the bloodsurge detachment/warlord trait and he can avoid overwatch for your abberrants. You can also give the Iconward the +1 ld relic and get the patriarch up to ld12 mental onslaught (13 if you take the ld warlord trait).
Are you talking about the Patriarch?
Yes, i can give him pretty good LD for mental onslaught but he cant reroll charges because it works only with Vigilus units.
So going to need a 7 inch charge roll or he will be all alone being a target.
I may be missing something but if you have the patriarch in your army he must be your warlord, meaning if he is your warlord then neither the acolyte iconward or an abominant can take the warlord traits from vigius. Someone correct me if I’m wrong on that as id love to run a patriarch and give the reroll charge warlord trait to an iconward if it’s possible.
It is possible. Vigilus has a 1CP strategem called 'Field Commander' which allows you to give a character a Warlord Trait from the detachments. So you can have both.
Moreover, because you can have a Brood Coven, you can then have four characters with Warlord traits from the GSC codex!
Ahh ok I see, thanks! So for 4 x warlord traits the cost will be 3cp? Ie one for the broodcoven, 1 for gaining access to the vigilus formation and 1 for the extra trait from vigulus?
That's right! Is it worth it? Yes it is.
My most frequent set up:
Patriarch (actual Warlord): Biomorph Adaptation
Primus: Alien Majesty
Magus: Inscrutable Cunning if I take a 4AE detachment, otherwise Focus of Adoration (but I don't think it overly matters)
Acolyte Iconward (Field Commander): Augur of the Insurgent
I think that we have pretty good warlord traits all things considered, and that extra punch on the Patriarch, re-rolling Acolyte charges, and +1 to hit from the Primus at 9" range (so he doesn't need to make his charge after deep striking, even if the Acolytes do) is just amazing! And, if relevant, D3 extra command points are nice (otherwise I don't think anything is great on the Magus. I take Focus of Adoration, but (s)he's never been charged. As GSC, we tend to pick where fights happen.
And yes, you can then take an Annointed Throng and get yet another warlord trait for your Abominant! And if Vigilus II has more specialist detachments for GSC (which it damn well better), then even more chances for fun!
If you use the brb warlord trait (+1 ld, 6” aura) on the magus and have it shadow your patriarch this helps mental onslaught quite a bit. For me this is the only decent trait for the magus if not taking 4ae.
I wonder, how would the infantry heavy GSC lists deal with the emerging mass flyer eldar lists?
Is there something you can do other then just avoid them and hope you can table whats on the ground in time?
Ordana wrote: I wonder, how would the infantry heavy GSC lists deal with the emerging mass flyer eldar lists?
Is there something you can do other then just avoid them and hope you can table whats on the ground in time?
Are the really emerging? After the Ork codex and now the release of the GSC-codex I don't expect them to be really emerging.
Eldar flyers can be taken down with 'mental onslaught', 'mind control',' smites' or perfect ambush 5 demolition charges in their face. Or just ignore them and go for the objective.
Patriarch [8 PL, 137pts]: Familiar, Power: Mass Hypnosis, Power: Might From Beyond, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Biomorph Adaptation
Primus [4 PL, 75pts]: Bonesword, Broodcoven Primus, Sword of the Void's Eye, Warlord Trait: Preternatural Speed
+ Troops +
Acolyte Hybrids [9 PL, 163pts]: Cult Icon
. 11x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 11x Hand Flamer
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Leader: Bonesword, Hand Flamer
Acolyte Hybrids [3 PL, 59pts]: Cult Icon
. 3x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 3x Hand Flamer
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife
Acolyte Hybrids [3 PL, 59pts]: Cult Icon
. 3x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 3x Hand Flamer
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife
Acolyte Hybrids [3 PL, 59pts]: Cult Icon
. 3x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 3x Hand Flamer
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife
Acolyte Hybrids [3 PL, 59pts]: Cult Icon
. 3x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 3x Hand Flamer
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife
Acolyte Hybrids [3 PL, 59pts]: Cult Icon
. 3x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 3x Hand Flamer
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife
+ Elites +
Kelermorph [3 PL, 60pts]
Locus [2 PL, 40pts]
Nexos [3 PL, 50pts]
+ Fast Attack +
Atalan Jackals [5 PL, 87pts] . Atalan Jackal: Power Hammer, Shotgun
. Atalan Jackal: Power Hammer, Shotgun
. Atalan Jackal: Grenade Launcher, Power Hammer
. Atalan Leader: Power axe, Shotgun
. Atalan Wolfquad: Mining Laser, Shotgun
Atalan Jackals [5 PL, 87pts] . Atalan Jackal: Power Hammer, Shotgun
. Atalan Jackal: Power Hammer, Shotgun
. Atalan Jackal: Grenade Launcher, Power Hammer
. Atalan Leader: Power axe, Shotgun
. Atalan Wolfquad: Mining Laser, Shotgun
Atalan Jackals [5 PL, 87pts] . Atalan Jackal: Power Hammer, Shotgun
. Atalan Jackal: Power Hammer, Shotgun
. Atalan Jackal: Grenade Launcher, Power Hammer
. Atalan Leader: Power axe, Shotgun
. Atalan Wolfquad: Mining Laser, Shotgun
This is the list I am building toward for my local meta. We have very few competitive players so I just built the models with the gear I liked. I'm not set on the two cult creeds until I can act start playtesting them. Thoughts?
Patriarch [8 PL, 137pts]: Familiar, Power: Mass Hypnosis, Power: Might From Beyond, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Biomorph Adaptation
Primus [4 PL, 75pts]: Bonesword, Broodcoven Primus, Sword of the Void's Eye, Warlord Trait: Preternatural Speed
+ Troops +
Acolyte Hybrids [9 PL, 163pts]: Cult Icon
. 11x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 11x Hand Flamer
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Leader: Bonesword, Hand Flamer
Acolyte Hybrids [3 PL, 59pts]: Cult Icon
. 3x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 3x Hand Flamer
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife
Acolyte Hybrids [3 PL, 59pts]: Cult Icon
. 3x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 3x Hand Flamer
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife
Acolyte Hybrids [3 PL, 59pts]: Cult Icon
. 3x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 3x Hand Flamer
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife
Acolyte Hybrids [3 PL, 59pts]: Cult Icon
. 3x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 3x Hand Flamer
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife
Acolyte Hybrids [3 PL, 59pts]: Cult Icon
. 3x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 3x Hand Flamer
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife
+ Elites +
Kelermorph [3 PL, 60pts]
Locus [2 PL, 40pts]
Nexos [3 PL, 50pts]
+ Fast Attack +
Atalan Jackals [5 PL, 87pts] . Atalan Jackal: Power Hammer, Shotgun
. Atalan Jackal: Power Hammer, Shotgun
. Atalan Jackal: Grenade Launcher, Power Hammer
. Atalan Leader: Power axe, Shotgun
. Atalan Wolfquad: Mining Laser, Shotgun
Atalan Jackals [5 PL, 87pts] . Atalan Jackal: Power Hammer, Shotgun
. Atalan Jackal: Power Hammer, Shotgun
. Atalan Jackal: Grenade Launcher, Power Hammer
. Atalan Leader: Power axe, Shotgun
. Atalan Wolfquad: Mining Laser, Shotgun
Atalan Jackals [5 PL, 87pts] . Atalan Jackal: Power Hammer, Shotgun
. Atalan Jackal: Power Hammer, Shotgun
. Atalan Jackal: Grenade Launcher, Power Hammer
. Atalan Leader: Power axe, Shotgun
. Atalan Wolfquad: Mining Laser, Shotgun
This is the list I am building toward for my local meta. We have very few competitive players so I just built the models with the gear I liked. I'm not set on the two cult creeds until I can act start playtesting them. Thoughts?
I think that GSC armies struggle with this kind of setup. To many characters and to many upgrades that are not equipped for a specific purpose. Either get one big unit of acolytes with flamers and drop it in 3 inch from the enemy line and one big unit with rock saws with perfect ambush to take down that knight. These small units die to fast with all these expensive upgrades doing nothing most of the time.
Half the army got to deploy with blieps and start taking casualties even before the rest arrives. Any decent shooting army with a bit of bubble wrap takes you down piece by piece. I don't see how you deal with knights. But hey, for casual gaming it's a great list with lots of units but I think you struggle against a few decent enemy armylists.
This is the list I am building toward for my local meta. We have very few competitive players so I just built the models with the gear I liked. I'm not set on the two cult creeds until I can act start playtesting them. Thoughts?
I'd probably run both detachments as Bladed Cog or Twisted Helix rather than split between Helix and Cog. Your support bubbles don't overlap and both sides have things that really want access to the support functionalities in the other detachment. I'd also suggest taking the Flare Launcher on the Achilles since you have bikes to use them with (the socket for the Launcher and Spotter is modular, so they can swap without needing magnets if you don't glue them down).
Strat_N8 wrote:I'd probably run both detachments as Bladed Cog or Twisted Helix rather than split between Helix and Cog. Your support bubbles don't overlap and both sides have things that really want access to the support functionalities in the other detachment. I'd also suggest taking the Flare Launcher on the Achilles since you have bikes to use them with (the socket for the Launcher and Spotter is modular, so they can swap without needing magnets if you don't glue them down).
I can see what your saying and this is a thought I had. Honestly the only reason I'm not using flares is because of the two separate Cults, but I might shift them all to one.
shogun wrote:I think that GSC armies struggle with this kind of setup. To many characters and to many upgrades that are not equipped for a specific purpose. Either get one big unit of acolytes with flamers and drop it in 3 inch from the enemy line and one big unit with rock saws with perfect ambush to take down that knight. These small units die to fast with all these expensive upgrades doing nothing most of the time.
Half the army got to deploy with blieps and start taking casualties even before the rest arrives. Any decent shooting army with a bit of bubble wrap takes you down piece by piece. I don't see how you deal with knights. But hey, for casual gaming it's a great list with lots of units but I think you struggle against a few decent enemy armylists.
Honestly I will face very few knights. There are only 3 people in my area that use any and I rarely play them, though I can see what your saying about being shot down without doing anything.
Honestly I will face more Pure AM and Tau than anything, maybe some necrons so I could see shrinking to a battalion and upping the size of each unit.
Thrund wrote: So, the Achilles Ridgerunner. I love the model and it fits the theme I'm going for with my army, but I'm struggling to find a use for it. It's not survivable enough to make suicide runs into enemy territory and doesn't have the right weapon options to offer close support to the bikers, which are the two roles that Ork buggies can fill. The scout move is a waste of time in a GSC army since it requires the unit to use visible deployment. The only role I can find which might have some merit is to load it up with the unpopular choices - heavy mortar and survey augur - and keep it hidden at the back to winkle enemy units out of cover. But that seems like a huge waste for a fast vehicle.
My instinct is that the points and the fast attack slot are better spent on a couple or Plasma or Autocannon sentinels, which is a shame as that's more expensive and less interesting from a modelling point of view.
Anyone else found anything interesting to do with the Ridgerunner?
Shhhhh don't say anything bad about the ridgerunner here, people flip out and lose their minds when you do.
The only possible use I can see for it is taking 3, setting an alphus in the middle of them, and praying your opponent rolls terrible. Anything else in the book will do the same thing it can better and for substantially less points, but the model does look cool as hell, so i've got 2 on the painting table. I just doubt they'll ever leave my display case for a game.
I was thinking the sentinel saws would give you a nice toothy blade to work with - then it is just figuring how much of it you need to add to an appropriate looking 'body' to make a functional looking appliance.
If you do not do them double bladed you can make two saws out of the spruce. Just use the handels off the other units. Although I also bought some lego saws off amazon and made them more edgy.
I also play Orks, so here's a quick attempt using the Cutter arms and a Meganobz killsaw. Still needs a lot of tidying up but it worked better than expected. Anyone who's bought Meganobz will probably have at least a couple spare as it's rare to give them to the whole mob.
So do you think it's worth 2CP to "Summon" a Kellermorph first turn to drop into the enemy's backfield to assassinate a key unit or character, get first strike and otherwise be s supreme nuisance to the opponent? I imagine he could eliminate 2 whole HWT units in one turn of fireing and as he is just a single base will fit places that the enemy will not really have thought to protect from DS esp first turn. If the opp is careless he could snipe a character as well. I'm thinking of using this in an upcoming ITC tournament.
Timeshadow wrote: So do you think it's worth 2CP to "Summon" a Kellermorph first turn to drop into the enemy's backfield to assassinate a key unit or character, get first strike and otherwise be s supreme nuisance to the opponent? I imagine he could eliminate 2 whole HWT units in one turn of fireing and as he is just a single base will fit places that the enemy will not really have thought to protect from DS esp first turn. If the opp is careless he could snipe a character as well. I'm thinking of using this in an upcoming ITC tournament.
I would always reserve some points for summoning. You cannot go wrong with first turn deep striking a unit, and the flexibility to choose any infantry unit. But it is very unlikely that an enemy player deploy's his character so close to the bubble wrap. Personally I like to summon a brood brother unit with a vox caster and start shooting down bubble wrap first turn with 80 lasgun shots.
Timeshadow wrote: So do you think it's worth 2CP to "Summon" a Kellermorph first turn to drop into the enemy's backfield to assassinate a key unit or character, get first strike and otherwise be s supreme nuisance to the opponent? I imagine he could eliminate 2 whole HWT units in one turn of fireing and as he is just a single base will fit places that the enemy will not really have thought to protect from DS esp first turn. If the opp is careless he could snipe a character as well. I'm thinking of using this in an upcoming ITC tournament.
I would always reserve some points for summoning. You cannot go wrong with first turn deep striking a unit, and the flexibility to choose any infantry unit. But it is very unlikely that an enemy player deploy's his character so close to the bubble wrap. Personally I like to summon a brood brother unit with a vox caster and start shooting down bubble wrap first turn with 80 lasgun shots.
You know that the vox for brood brothers (from our Codex) only allows reroll moral not the extra range for orders right? And we can only summon from our codex.
Timeshadow wrote: So do you think it's worth 2CP to "Summon" a Kellermorph first turn to drop into the enemy's backfield to assassinate a key unit or character, get first strike and otherwise be s supreme nuisance to the opponent? I imagine he could eliminate 2 whole HWT units in one turn of fireing and as he is just a single base will fit places that the enemy will not really have thought to protect from DS esp first turn. If the opp is careless he could snipe a character as well. I'm thinking of using this in an upcoming ITC tournament.
I would always reserve some points for summoning. You cannot go wrong with first turn deep striking a unit, and the flexibility to choose any infantry unit. But it is very unlikely that an enemy player deploy's his character so close to the bubble wrap. Personally I like to summon a brood brother unit with a vox caster and start shooting down bubble wrap first turn with 80 lasgun shots.
You know that the vox for brood brothers (from our Codex) only allows reroll moral not the extra range for orders right? And we can only summon from our codex.
Oh yea thats right... not the same vox caster. But I still like the options.
Yah we have a ton of options at several key price points.
Kellermorph/Iconward/Sanctus/Clamvlus even Primus, Magus and Jackal Alphus are all in the same price range, Not to mention Brood brothers units of 20 or Neophytes of 10 with 2 GL/ML or H Stubbers.
Kelermorph - 60 points
10 neophytes with 2GL and 2 HS - 60 points
6 acolytes w/saw, 1 demo charge, 3 hand flamers - 60 points
Sanctus - 55 points
Both those troops units are ones I was planning to use in smaller games, and perhaps bring to fill slots in the larger lists, but I might keep them for my sideboard instead.
So, if the opponent has Psykers that are being a pain, bring on the Sanctus, otherwise if there's a good spot for the Kelermorph to attack a character, summon him instead. If neither is the case, bring on one of the troops units, possibly on an unclaimed objective if that's an option. And you only had to leave your list 60 points short, so it's not a disaster if it doesn't achieve much. I did have several 100-point units worked out for potential summoning - or just to swap in and out of the list - but I like this idea better.
HS: 3 Mortar heavy weapon team
HS: 3 Mortar heavy weapon team
HS: 3 Mortar heavy weapon team
125 points for Summoning
I like summoning another patriarch and combine the other two patriarch's + pimped up primus to make a small deathstar. As long there are enough brood brother models close by to keep them save.
Twisted helix Primus + sword of the voids eye relic + biomorph adaptation WLT + possible might from beyond = 7 attacks with reroll to hit and wound at Strenght 9.
Mortars are great for removing that pesky infantry unit from an objective them prevents me from ambushing close by. Also need some flexible shooting support for the shooty mealstrom objective.
I need the 20 acolytes with rock saws if I counter a full knight list or custodes jetbikes. Its hard to ignore 3+ knights midfield that also really limit my deep strike options.
HS: 3 Mortar heavy weapon team
HS: 3 Mortar heavy weapon team
HS: 3 Mortar heavy weapon team
125 points for Summoning
I like summoning another patriarch and combine the other two patriarch's + pimped up primus to make a small deathstar. As long there are enough brood brother models close by to keep them save.
Twisted helix Primus + sword of the voids eye relic + biomorph adaptation WLT + possible might from beyond = 7 attacks with reroll to hit and wound at Strenght 9.
Mortars are great for removing that pesky infantry unit from an objective them prevents me from ambushing close by. Also need some flexible shooting support for the shooty mealstrom objective.
I need the 20 acolytes with rock saws if I counter a full knight list or custodes jetbikes. Its hard to ignore 3+ knights midfield that also really limit my deep strike options.
Do you honestly want to play with 247 Brood brother inf? ....... I get bogged down with half this many models. More than 110-120 and you really start hurting for time.
HS: 3 Mortar heavy weapon team
HS: 3 Mortar heavy weapon team
HS: 3 Mortar heavy weapon team
125 points for Summoning
I like summoning another patriarch and combine the other two patriarch's + pimped up primus to make a small deathstar. As long there are enough brood brother models close by to keep them save.
Twisted helix Primus + sword of the voids eye relic + biomorph adaptation WLT + possible might from beyond = 7 attacks with reroll to hit and wound at Strenght 9.
Mortars are great for removing that pesky infantry unit from an objective them prevents me from ambushing close by. Also need some flexible shooting support for the shooty mealstrom objective.
I need the 20 acolytes with rock saws if I counter a full knight list or custodes jetbikes. Its hard to ignore 3+ knights midfield that also really limit my deep strike options.
Do you honestly want to play with 247 Brood brother inf? ....... I get bogged down with half this many models. More than 110-120 and you really start hurting for time.
I'am a fast player that uses fast deployment, movement trays, dice-cups with specific amount of dice (20/30/50) and stay away from small useless time consuming actions. Could be that half the amount of brood brothers show themselves at the start of turn 3. In a tournament I use a chess lock myself because this kind of army actually uses up a lot of the enemies time. I really want to focus on the objectives and try to push towards turn 5 with fast play to insure I get as much objective points as possible. But this depends on the mission rules.
I also consider switching the 'brood brother' detachment with two neurothropes and 3x30 termagaunts (kraken). I really like to include 'the horror' and kraken termagaunts are also pretty fast mid-field and good at killing weak mid field units (scouts).
HS: 3 Mortar heavy weapon team
HS: 3 Mortar heavy weapon team
HS: 3 Mortar heavy weapon team
125 points for Summoning
I like summoning another patriarch and combine the other two patriarch's + pimped up primus to make a small deathstar. As long there are enough brood brother models close by to keep them save.
Twisted helix Primus + sword of the voids eye relic + biomorph adaptation WLT + possible might from beyond = 7 attacks with reroll to hit and wound at Strenght 9.
Mortars are great for removing that pesky infantry unit from an objective them prevents me from ambushing close by. Also need some flexible shooting support for the shooty mealstrom objective.
I need the 20 acolytes with rock saws if I counter a full knight list or custodes jetbikes. Its hard to ignore 3+ knights midfield that also really limit my deep strike options.
You have no damage outside of a few characters, Unquestionable devotion is only a 4+ so your characters will get destroyed no matter how many useless dudes are standing nearby by weight alone.
It will beat the dumb eldar flyer list, but that's about it.
If you bought Goliaths from necromunda to make extra aberrants like I did, they come with big saw bladed axes among other nice industrial looking bits that you can use to make extra varied specials.
HS: 3 Mortar heavy weapon team
HS: 3 Mortar heavy weapon team
HS: 3 Mortar heavy weapon team
125 points for Summoning
I like summoning another patriarch and combine the other two patriarch's + pimped up primus to make a small deathstar. As long there are enough brood brother models close by to keep them save.
Twisted helix Primus + sword of the voids eye relic + biomorph adaptation WLT + possible might from beyond = 7 attacks with reroll to hit and wound at Strenght 9.
Mortars are great for removing that pesky infantry unit from an objective them prevents me from ambushing close by. Also need some flexible shooting support for the shooty mealstrom objective.
I need the 20 acolytes with rock saws if I counter a full knight list or custodes jetbikes. Its hard to ignore 3+ knights midfield that also really limit my deep strike options.
You have no damage outside of a few characters, Unquestionable devotion is only a 4+ so your characters will get destroyed no matter how many useless dudes are standing nearby by weight alone.
It will beat the dumb eldar flyer list, but that's about it.
It depends on the missions. You need to focus on the objectives and try to ignore the non anti infantry units. But apart from that I wouldn't say that 200+ lasguns, mortars, mass hypnosis, mind control, mental onslaught, smite and 20 acolytes+8 rock saws with perfect ambush are useless. 3 patriarch's and primus could take down a knight as long as the stick together.
I dunno much about deathwatch in combination with the new bolter rule. That could be painful.
Thrund wrote: Kelermorph - 60 points
10 neophytes with 2GL and 2 HS - 60 points
6 acolytes w/saw, 1 demo charge, 3 hand flamers - 60 points
Sanctus - 55 points
Both those troops units are ones I was planning to use in smaller games, and perhaps bring to fill slots in the larger lists, but I might keep them for my sideboard instead.
So, if the opponent has Psykers that are being a pain, bring on the Sanctus, otherwise if there's a good spot for the Kelermorph to attack a character, summon him instead. If neither is the case, bring on one of the troops units, possibly on an unclaimed objective if that's an option. And you only had to leave your list 60 points short, so it's not a disaster if it doesn't achieve much. I did have several 100-point units worked out for potential summoning - or just to swap in and out of the list - but I like this idea better.
I'm inclined to bring the Sanctus with the relic rifle, because the relic makes him very reliable both against Psykers and as a sniper in general. I'm pretty sure summoning him keeps you from running the relic. I have two Kelermorph's (because the price on the box was very good value) and feel that the best summoning option is to leave 60-70 points to either summon the second Kelermorph or a troops squad. I think 100 point units are too much to give up to summoning. Quick question-does the summoning let you deep strike units outside of your own deployment zone turn 1?
Are there any mathhammer averedge damage per cost of unit for shooting attacks? I know I saw some for that for nids before the point updates. Does that exist for nids? Also, does it do so for GSC and IG? (Mostly the leman russ for IG for me.)
Also, what do people think of small squads with mining lasers? At 74 points 2 shoots of a laser seems quite tasty in my mind. Anybody else?
Edit: Does summon bypass character restrictions in detachmenta, as well as deolployment limits?
I’ve tried out shooty lists with Hivecult and a bunch of neophytes with mining lasers and it’s...okay. 24” on all your guns means you’re constantly moving, so even with the +1 from a Jackal Alpha it’s not a great chance. You get a ton of str 3 shooting, but you can do that just as easily with brood brothers. Ridgerunners and Rockgrinders are more useful in that sort of list as they benefit from the buffs but have longer range on their lasers.
But the bladed cog does not get -1 to hit. As far as I can tell tje only weapons that benefit from bladed cog is minig laser, sesmic cannon and the sniper. Bit it couød be enough.
The stratagem is also OK against a castelan knight if you make a big charge from.melee blob.
Niiai wrote: Are there any mathhammer averedge damage per cost of unit for shooting attacks? I know I saw some for that for nids before the point updates. Does that exist for nids? Also, does it do so for GSC and IG? (Mostly the leman russ for IG for me.)
Also, what do people think of small squads with mining lasers? At 74 points 2 shoots of a laser seems quite tasty in my mind. Anybody else?
Edit: Does summon bypass character restrictions in detachmenta, as well as deolployment limits?
Yes summons are not part of a detachment so they would bypass those restrictions. Also means they can't get Cult Creeds tho.
And yes summoning is after deployment so ignores deployment limits.
The rules says you select a <cult> psyker summon a <cult> unit from the creed the caster you use the strategem for is. I read this that you summon a unit of the same creed as the psyker. You could nitpick and say you could take another creed.
The <cult> mention makes it clear they can have a creed though.
Yeah, I actually mixed up cult and creed there, but the way I would use it cult is the important one as I would use it to turn 1 DS a clamavus to add it to the patriarch and 2 units to DS in turn 1.
Played in a local team tournament over the weekend with my GSC (our team took 2nd) and I must say I really like the Jackals. I took two squads of 8 jackals + 2 wolf quads and each game they were the star performers due to their mobility and durability. None of our opponents were able to wipe either squad completely out and they did a lot of work against opposing infantry. The Jackal Alphus also did rather well. She bagged 4 characters over the course of the tournament from sniping and the +1 to hit relay was a huge asset for her packmates. I made her the Warlord in each game with the Shadow Stalker warlord trait for a -2 to hit and she basically was ignored all game as a result.
The one area I ran into trouble was the last game against a double-Ork list. I tailored a bit for gunlines and wasn't really prepared to deal with a bunch of threats pinning us in our deployment zone turn 1. We eventually broke out and destroyed most of the Orks, but by that time they had an insurmountable lead in victory points. Was still a fun game and I think it would have been winnable had we had time to continue. One very big highlight was two 5-man Acolyte units and an Iconward holding up a 40-strong blob of Orks for four rounds of combat. The orks were bottlenecked and hindered with Mass Hypnosis, so they weren't able to get their full volume of attacks and were missing with half due to the -1 to hit penalty imposed. I rolled really well on saves as well, with the +1 from Rusted Claw and 6+ from the Iconward. The squads probably could have kept holding the line had Mass Hypnosis not failed.
Yeah rusted claw gives probably the strongest trait, even without including any bike units to benefit from its stratagem. With them, well, they get some excellent offensive punch.
Badablack wrote: Yeah rusted claw gives probably the strongest trait, even without including any bike units to benefit from its stratagem. With them, well, they get some excellent offensive punch.
yes and no.
I agree the +1 to save is really good but for units trying to charge from deepstrike (which is kind of a GSC thing) nothing really beats 4 armed emperor in making sure you actually make the charge and are not stranded getting shot to bits.
Sure, but overall every type of GSC army, ranged or melee or otherwise, is going to want a better armor save. The charge bonus is nice, but you really have to combine it with a Clamavus and Broodsurge detachment to have any real reliability.
Such a generic statement is very unfounded and naive. Any posetive advantage is something every model wants, you can not use that as a justefication that something is better in a genneral sence. You would end up with all six creeds beeing equal.
The four armed emperor is important for atmy lists that needs charges from reserves, and the coubterspell. For the most part that would be small detachments of allied GSC.
Bladed cog wants a lott of groups of mining lasers and sniper assassins. The stratagem is good at charging imperial units.
Twisted helix is for melee focused lists that benefit from a bigger offense then defense. Also good vs orks and other T4 units.
Pauper princes are good with abberants, and melee focused lists.
Hivecult is good with massed ranged infantrry and flamers.
Rusted claw is good for canping on objectives and for bike shenanigans.
I am planning out my Jackals before I assemble any - and they are third party models so I am needing to kitbash as I go. Is it legit to have a few models in each unit holding one of the weapons they are equipped with - so my unit of 10 is likely to have 3 holding shotguns, 2 grenade launchers, and the rest wielding pistols and knives to represent a unit that have 8x shotgun, pistol, knife and 2 GL, pistol, knife?
I will also have a unit of 5 with demo charges that I need to build up, but they are different. They are more of a suicide squad, but if I have some survivors I plan to grab an objective or possibly use the Reinforcements stratagem to return them (with new demo charges...) to repeat.
Thoughts?
hangnailnz wrote: I am planning out my Jackals before I assemble any - and they are third party models so I am needing to kitbash as I go. Is it legit to have a few models in each unit holding one of the weapons they are equipped with - so my unit of 10 is likely to have 3 holding shotguns, 2 grenade launchers, and the rest wielding pistols and knives to represent a unit that have 8x shotgun, pistol, knife and 2 GL, pistol, knife?
I will also have a unit of 5 with demo charges that I need to build up, but they are different. They are more of a suicide squad, but if I have some survivors I plan to grab an objective or possibly use the Reinforcements stratagem to return them (with new demo charges...) to repeat.
Thoughts?
The modeling part sounds fine, but it's worth noting that reinforcing dead models doesn't mean they are equipped with a new demo charge. It's the same model brought back to life, not a new model with the same wargear.
hangnailnz wrote: I am planning out my Jackals before I assemble any - and they are third party models so I am needing to kitbash as I go. Is it legit to have a few models in each unit holding one of the weapons they are equipped with - so my unit of 10 is likely to have 3 holding shotguns, 2 grenade launchers, and the rest wielding pistols and knives to represent a unit that have 8x shotgun, pistol, knife and 2 GL, pistol, knife?
I will also have a unit of 5 with demo charges that I need to build up, but they are different. They are more of a suicide squad, but if I have some survivors I plan to grab an objective or possibly use the Reinforcements stratagem to return them (with new demo charges...) to repeat.
Thoughts?
I dont see why it should not be legal. They are equiped with 4 weapons and have 2 arms, one holding the handlebar of the bike. How are you supposed to model this?
Everyone got a holster on his side for the pistol, and as long you tell your opponent how they are equiped, i dont think this will be a problem (outside of tournaments).
Regarding democharges. I did something similar.
I took the arms with the blasting stuff from the acolyte hybrids to have more demo charges represented in the squad. But i too think that you cant bring back full recharged dudes.
I had another look, and you can only reinforce Troops units, but I am pretty sure you reinforce fully equipped models, so you should be able to get back demo charge equipped Acolytes for example.
Congrats indeed! I remember meeting him at Adepticon one year, he seemed quite nice. I'd be very curious to see what he ended up running, would you happen to have the list handy?
Badablack wrote: Yeah rusted claw gives probably the strongest trait, even without including any bike units to benefit from its stratagem. With them, well, they get some excellent offensive punch.
While it is certainly good, I'm not sure if Rusted Claw is universally the best. It really prefers firefights where you can stack the trait with cover (or the -1 to hit from the Jackals) while in melee you are more likely to see the -2 AP that shuts it off. Their relic and warlord trait are also on the weaker side compared to the others (Relic is really iffy, Warlord trait is just very niche in what can truly benefit from it).
I think Bladed Cog is actually probably the most well-rounded trait. It has a good creed ability, very good relic (3+ invul on a non-Patriarch Character), good warlord trait (copy of the Primus' Meticulous Planner ability but with full rerolls), and a decent enough stratagem for most of the melee units (especially with Imperium being a rather common match-up).
Ordana wrote: yes and no.
I agree the +1 to save is really good but for units trying to charge from deepstrike (which is kind of a GSC thing) nothing really beats 4 armed emperor in making sure you actually make the charge and are not stranded getting shot to bits.
I've been having trouble getting behind the Cult of the Four-Armed Emperor (at least as pure GSC), mostly because how restricted they are. Just about everything related to them is once-per-game or is close enough to being once-per-game. As allies it isn't as large a factor since the rest of the army can pick up the slack late-game, but as a stand-alone they seem to run into even greater sustainability issues than unusual once their tricks have been spent.
Anyway, I have a revised version of the old index primer almost ready for sharing. I'd be happy to contribute it to the cause if another tactica is not in the works.
Lots of Orks in there! Interesting that both GSC lists had a small 4-AE detachment, and I guess weren't allowed a second different Creed in their larger detachment. Are the actual battle reports in there somewhere?
I like the inclusion of metamorphs in that list and I’m glad he was able to make them work. They put out a stupid number of 2+ attacks without the need for stratagems or characters to buff them.
Strat_N8 wrote: Congrats indeed! I remember meeting him at Adepticon one year, he seemed quite nice. I'd be very curious to see what he ended up running, would you happen to have the list handy?
Oof ouch my wallet. Just thinking about buying all those acolytes hurts me physically. It’s an interesting list though. I’m particularly intrigued by the mixed cult brigade, which I assume is to allow access to all the great cult-specific strats? Do we know which ones he used?
The formatting is a bit confusing, but it is a 20-strong Squad. One leader, 11 regular grunts, and 8 Saws.
I’m curious what makes the second detachment mixed. Brood Brothers alone shouldn’t be causing any issues (unless maybe it is a side effect of whatever list program they are using?).
Also a bit confused as to why all the demolition charges are concentrated in one Jackal unit. Extra Explosives only allows 5 to be thrown at once, and I doubt the opponent will allow the squad to get a second chance at it after they blow up something once. Granted, if they have Rusted Claw they could use Drive-by Demolitions to zip out of sight after unloading, but it still feels a bit like too many eggs in one basket.
Everything else more or less makes sense. The battalion serves as the “hammer” and the brigade servs as the on-table “anvil”.
Both are from Vigilus Defiant. The Broodsurge is a “specialist” detachment (stratagem that adds a keyword and some toys that interact with said keyword) and the Field Commander is a stratagem that allows a character within a specialist detachment to take the related warlord trait (but otherwise not count as the warlord).
I think the 10 demo charge unit is awesome. I think you do lying in wait 2cp for 3" deployment, then perfect ambush 3cp for shoot straightaway with extra explosives 1cp and drive by demolitions 1cp. Then in shooting phase you can repeat extra explosives and drive by. Yes you have used 9cp on one unit, but you could be on for dropping two knights with this combo.
Strat_N8 wrote: The formatting is a bit confusing, but it is a 20-strong Squad. One leader, 11 regular grunts, and 8 Saws.
I’m curious what makes the second detachment mixed. Brood Brothers alone shouldn’t be causing any issues (unless maybe it is a side effect of whatever list program they are using?).
Also a bit confused as to why all the demolition charges are concentrated in one Jackal unit. Extra Explosives only allows 5 to be thrown at once, and I doubt the opponent will allow the squad to get a second chance at it after they blow up something once. Granted, if they have Rusted Claw they could use Drive-by Demolitions to zip out of sight after unloading, but it still feels a bit like too many eggs in one basket.
Everything else more or less makes sense. The battalion serves as the “hammer” and the brigade servs as the on-table “anvil”.
Thanks for posting your tournament results at the top of the page. I'll definitely be trying a -2 to hit Alphus as my Warlord in a few games.
As to the concentrated demo-charges....He'd go: Lying in Wait (-2CPs), Perfect Ambush: Shooting (-3CPs), Extra Explosives (-1CP) in the movement phase. So 5 Democharges 5 Shotguns (or 5d6 Blasting Charges), 2 Heavy Flamers all shooting. Then in the Shooting phase he goes: Extra Explosives (1CP) and probably (Drive-By-Demolitions 1CP) and does it all again. Total 7-8CPs but man is that going to do a number on your opponent's planning and screens for only 208 points. With 19 CPs at the start of the game it seems doable for the amount of disruption you'd get.
One thing I have to double down on from when I saw the codex, and now looking at results... Why would you ever take Neophytes?
I love the models but they just seem like a trap unit that fits poorly in between the pricier but ultra-effective Acolytes and the super cheap objective sitters/battlation fillers/FRSRFers in Brood Brothers.
Strat_N8 wrote: The formatting is a bit confusing, but it is a 20-strong Squad. One leader, 11 regular grunts, and 8 Saws.
I’m curious what makes the second detachment mixed. Brood Brothers alone shouldn’t be causing any issues (unless maybe it is a side effect of whatever list program they are using?).
Also a bit confused as to why all the demolition charges are concentrated in one Jackal unit. Extra Explosives only allows 5 to be thrown at once, and I doubt the opponent will allow the squad to get a second chance at it after they blow up something once. Granted, if they have Rusted Claw they could use Drive-by Demolitions to zip out of sight after unloading, but it still feels a bit like too many eggs in one basket.
Everything else more or less makes sense. The battalion serves as the “hammer” and the brigade servs as the on-table “anvil”.
The unit uses lying in wait, extra explosives, the grenade strat for rusted claw and perfect ambush. It tosses 5 demos and 10 blasting charges then gets a free 14" move. In the shooting phase it pops the two grenade strats again. All 10 used in one turn. 9CP though.
Edit: Sorry should have scrolled down
It's a neat trick with a new book but auspex scan is a real bastard. He can use his 1 time cancel on that but thats 3 more CP.
Gordoape wrote: One thing I have to double down on from when I saw the codex, and now looking at results... Why would you ever take Neophytes?
I love the models but they just seem like a trap unit that fits poorly in between the pricier but ultra-effective Acolytes and the super cheap objective sitters/battlation fillers/FRSRFers in Brood Brothers.
Neophytes get Cult Creeds, which is nice for Rusted Claw +1 sv.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Strat_N8 wrote: The formatting is a bit confusing, but it is a 20-strong Squad. One leader, 11 regular grunts, and 8 Saws.
I’m curious what makes the second detachment mixed. Brood Brothers alone shouldn’t be causing any issues (unless maybe it is a side effect of whatever list program they are using?).
Also a bit confused as to why all the demolition charges are concentrated in one Jackal unit. Extra Explosives only allows 5 to be thrown at once, and I doubt the opponent will allow the squad to get a second chance at it after they blow up something once. Granted, if they have Rusted Claw they could use Drive-by Demolitions to zip out of sight after unloading, but it still feels a bit like too many eggs in one basket.
Everything else more or less makes sense. The battalion serves as the “hammer” and the brigade servs as the on-table “anvil”.
Others have explained the bikes.
But I assume its Mixed detachment because the Bikers want to be Rusted Claw for their cult stratagem while the characters will still be 4AE to buff the 4AE battalion units.
The Kelermorph/Patriatch/2nd Clamavus and Nexos all want to be 4AE but gain no real benefit from the cult creed itself so being in a mixed detachment is fine for them.
Strat_N8 wrote: The formatting is a bit confusing, but it is a 20-strong Squad. One leader, 11 regular grunts, and 8 Saws.
I’m curious what makes the second detachment mixed. Brood Brothers alone shouldn’t be causing any issues (unless maybe it is a side effect of whatever list program they are using?).
Also a bit confused as to why all the demolition charges are concentrated in one Jackal unit. Extra Explosives only allows 5 to be thrown at once, and I doubt the opponent will allow the squad to get a second chance at it after they blow up something once. Granted, if they have Rusted Claw they could use Drive-by Demolitions to zip out of sight after unloading, but it still feels a bit like too many eggs in one basket.
Everything else more or less makes sense. The battalion serves as the “hammer” and the brigade servs as the on-table “anvil”.
The unit uses lying in wait, extra explosives, the grenade strat for rusted claw and perfect ambush. It tosses 5 demos and 10 blasting charges then gets a free 14" move. In the shooting phase it pops the two grenade strats again. All 10 used in one turn. 9CP though.
Edit: Sorry should have scrolled down
It's a neat trick with a new book but auspex scan is a real bastard. He can use his 1 time cancel on that but thats 3 more CP.
Just a note. you DON'T get the free move. Moving after arriving from reserves is not allowed unless specifically mentioned (like in Perfect Ambush)
Can you guys give me feedback on a fun casual/competitive list. I am not looking to win tournaments, but want to have some fun pick up games so no idea what I will face but still have a shot of winning.
How does using Power Level change things in our army? From what I gather we're about boys not toys, but with every upgrade paid for what changes in our loadouts and what is better/worse to take?
A lot gets better. Every mining laser, las cannon, biker upgrade, banner, hybrid upgrade, mining equpment, brood brothers. Models you would not use in a regular game basicly.
Gordoape wrote: One thing I have to double down on from when I saw the codex, and now looking at results... Why would you ever take Neophytes?
I love the models but they just seem like a trap unit that fits poorly in between the pricier but ultra-effective Acolytes and the super cheap objective sitters/battlation fillers/FRSRFers in Brood Brothers.
Neophytes get Cult Creeds, which is nice for Rusted Claw +1 sv.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Strat_N8 wrote: The formatting is a bit confusing, but it is a 20-strong Squad. One leader, 11 regular grunts, and 8 Saws.
I’m curious what makes the second detachment mixed. Brood Brothers alone shouldn’t be causing any issues (unless maybe it is a side effect of whatever list program they are using?).
Also a bit confused as to why all the demolition charges are concentrated in one Jackal unit. Extra Explosives only allows 5 to be thrown at once, and I doubt the opponent will allow the squad to get a second chance at it after they blow up something once. Granted, if they have Rusted Claw they could use Drive-by Demolitions to zip out of sight after unloading, but it still feels a bit like too many eggs in one basket.
Everything else more or less makes sense. The battalion serves as the “hammer” and the brigade servs as the on-table “anvil”.
Others have explained the bikes.
But I assume its Mixed detachment because the Bikers want to be Rusted Claw for their cult stratagem while the characters will still be 4AE to buff the 4AE battalion units.
The Kelermorph/Patriatch/2nd Clamavus and Nexos all want to be 4AE but gain no real benefit from the cult creed itself so being in a mixed detachment is fine for them.
Strat_N8 wrote: The formatting is a bit confusing, but it is a 20-strong Squad. One leader, 11 regular grunts, and 8 Saws.
I’m curious what makes the second detachment mixed. Brood Brothers alone shouldn’t be causing any issues (unless maybe it is a side effect of whatever list program they are using?).
Also a bit confused as to why all the demolition charges are concentrated in one Jackal unit. Extra Explosives only allows 5 to be thrown at once, and I doubt the opponent will allow the squad to get a second chance at it after they blow up something once. Granted, if they have Rusted Claw they could use Drive-by Demolitions to zip out of sight after unloading, but it still feels a bit like too many eggs in one basket.
Everything else more or less makes sense. The battalion serves as the “hammer” and the brigade servs as the on-table “anvil”.
The unit uses lying in wait, extra explosives, the grenade strat for rusted claw and perfect ambush. It tosses 5 demos and 10 blasting charges then gets a free 14" move. In the shooting phase it pops the two grenade strats again. All 10 used in one turn. 9CP though.
Edit: Sorry should have scrolled down
It's a neat trick with a new book but auspex scan is a real bastard. He can use his 1 time cancel on that but thats 3 more CP.
Just a note. you DON'T get the free move. Moving after arriving from reserves is not allowed unless specifically mentioned (like in Perfect Ambush)
Wow, that's interesting. Good catch, that really makes the idea of taking such a big squad with 10 demos much worse IMO. Your only really gonna money shot an opponent that has no idea how the army works unless your already dominating them. I suppose it would still impact their positioning after deployment but seems like a gotcha gimmick against the unsuspecting.
the 10 Demo unit lets you throw Demo charges at a Knight twice on the turn you come down. (which is what happened in the Adepticon game that was on stream)
Ordana wrote: the 10 Demo unit lets you throw Demo charges at a Knight twice on the turn you come down. (which is what happened in the Adepticon game that was on stream)
It still has its place.
Demo charges can only be used once per battle (perhaps twice if you use cult reinforcement's but that wouldn't be in the turn you come down.
Ordana wrote: the 10 Demo unit lets you throw Demo charges at a Knight twice on the turn you come down. (which is what happened in the Adepticon game that was on stream)
It still has its place.
Demo charges can only be used once per battle (perhaps twice if you use cult reinforcement's but that wouldn't be in the turn you come down.
you take a unit with 10 demo charges, you throw 5 when you come out of reserves (Lay in wait to deploy 3" away, Perfect Ambush to shoot immediately, Extra Explosives let you throw 5 Demo charges max). Then in the shooting phase you throw the other 5, again with Extra Explosives.
That's why you bring 10, because they are one use and you can throw 5 at a time.
Hello
Currently I want to run some Genestealer blob with patriarch (something like 3x 15 models of genestealers)
Now question:
It is better to run Patriarch and purestrain genestealers in vanguard detachment or maybe Patriarch as Broodlord and genestealers as tyranids.
Im kind torn between those ideas cause:
GSC:
Lot of buffing characters
Unquestioning loyalty and ambush
Tyranids:
Biomorph Adaptation
Cheaper
Tyranid stratagem to move and advance instead of charging
Troops (so You could try to go for battalion with Broodlort and maybe something else)
Genneral logic is that you should run them as tyranids. Nid GS rock. In the current GSC codex they are generally considered to exspensive for what they do as opposed to both hybrids and abberants (vs varius targets, but mining hybrids is the better all arounder.)
If you are running genestealers in nids you probably want the swarmlord. For charging shenanigans. Preferably krakem, but behemoth, leviathan and to some extent hydra also work.
Ordana wrote: the 10 Demo unit lets you throw Demo charges at a Knight twice on the turn you come down. (which is what happened in the Adepticon game that was on stream)
It still has its place.
Getting the bikes in range for the ambush on a knight sounds really difficult. Even the smallest screen win ruin everything
Ordana wrote: the 10 Demo unit lets you throw Demo charges at a Knight twice on the turn you come down. (which is what happened in the Adepticon game that was on stream)
It still has its place.
Getting the bikes in range for the ambush on a knight sounds really difficult. Even the smallest screen win ruin everything
Just theory, but using all the strats would let you demo charge a screening unit out the way then zoom through the gap for the shooting phase...
Ordana wrote: the 10 Demo unit lets you throw Demo charges at a Knight twice on the turn you come down. (which is what happened in the Adepticon game that was on stream)
It still has its place.
Getting the bikes in range for the ambush on a knight sounds really difficult. Even the smallest screen win ruin everything
Just theory, but using all the strats would let you demo charge a screening unit out the way then zoom through the gap for the shooting phase...
We just talked about this. You cannot move after arriving from Reserves unless specifically allowed.
So you don't get the free move after throwing grenades.
What's not common here is running 3 Basilisks and a Master of Ordinance. It's nice to have them, tucked far in a back corner, surrounded by Mortars and some infantry squads. It's been useful to force the opponent to move and respond to a long-distance threat rather than allow them to wait until I drop all my ambushes. The Basilisks are good at lots of different things, only loosing out against cheap chaff which I have tried to accommodate for with Acolyte flamer squads. Basilisks are also nice to take the last few wounds off targets or soften a big target up. What can I say...I like the models and I just bought a 3rd....so I'm committed.
I anticipate using "Lying In Wait" on my Flamer Acolytes for chaff clearing turns 2 and 3. The Jackals will move up the board or hang back to be available to counter units that get too close. Unless of course there's not a lot of chaff in which case the bikes will be exploding things proactively. I like the Rusted Claw Flamer Acolytes for holding objectives against assault armies too. The punch of the army is from the Rock Saws. I think I'll struggle with flyers...
I took Strat_N8's idea of making a -2 to hit Jackal Alphus my warlord. Would like a Patriarch but he's really expensive. Would be nice to take a 2nd Kellermorph but the way I have the army Creeds split I can't do it.
Gordoape wrote:One thing I have to double down on from when I saw the codex, and now looking at results... Why would you ever take Neophytes?
I love the models but they just seem like a trap unit that fits poorly in between the pricier but ultra-effective Acolytes and the super cheap objective sitters/battlation fillers/FRSRFers in Brood Brothers.
The main consideration really is what Cult creed you are using. The Neophytes are far happier with the "anvil" centric creeds (Rusted Claw, Bladed Cog, Hivecult) than the "hammer" centric creeds (Four-Armed Emperor, Twisted Helix, Pauper Princes) . The Pauper Princes and Twisted Helix admittedly do have a couple things that Neophytes like (Pauper Princes relic lets them ignore moral and shoot back when killed, Twisted Helix gives them a strength buff and makes it easier for shotgun squad to dart into S4 range) but Four-Armed Emperor does basically nothing for them. Rusted Claw makes them infuriatingly difficult to root out of cover, Bladed Cog lets them take full advantage of their heavy weapons, and Hivecult makes them very resilient to moral and lets them fall out of combat and shoot (Chilling Efficiency and the Hivelord warlord trait are also nice for Neophytes).
Neophytes also play the mechanized game very well, since they can concentrate firepower in minimum units and still shoot from the back of their Truck. The only Acolyte configuration that really synergizes well with a Goliath Truck is the 5-strong squad with 2x Demolition Charges (x2 per truck) and Brood Brothers don't really like playing mech at all since they can't do much while embarked and the transport is considerably more expensive than what it is carrying.
Niiai wrote: Genneral logic is that you should run them as tyranids. Nid GS rock. In the current GSC codex they are generally considered to exspensive for what they do as opposed to both hybrids and abberants (vs varius targets, but mining hybrids is the better all arounder.)
If you are running genestealers in nids you probably want the swarmlord. For charging shenanigans. Preferably krakem, but behemoth, leviathan and to some extent hydra also work.
And to compound what you point out Niiai, I find it amazing that in the 2nd Place Adepticon GSC army there wasn't a single "Genestealer" (not counting the Patriarch) in the list.
What other 40k army doesn't have it's own namesake represented in the actual army? Space Marine Scouts get a pass only because they will be space marines someday.
Well, running the numbers in the codex it would seem that Acolyte Hybrid could perhaps increase by one point. Or hybrids and genestealers (GSC) could drop by one point or two points respectivly.
points don't fix these kinds of issues alone. Purestrains should gain the cult creed to start, same with the vehicles.
Then as a balance so we are not forced into ambushing, acolytes and metamorphs should gain advance and charge at a slight price hike. Makes no sense to me that an ork can advance and charge while a mutant with genestealer blood cannot.
Let us not start a discussion about rules changes. There is a different forum for that, and we do have a functional codex with strenghs and weakneses like other codexes.
However, when we runn the mathhammer on the numbers Acolute Hybrids come out very well against most things, and also big things with the mining tools.
Abberants come out better vs really big things, so they have a home.
Hybrid metamorphs come out slightly better vs infantery then acolyte hyrbids, so they have a home, Although in an all commers list people will probably take the acolytes and slap on some saws to make them a more versatile unit.
Purestrain GS come out great vs no targets compared to the other 3. Although the number of attacks and rending makes them an allcommer, but they loose out vs acolytes as an all comer. Their benefit is that they survwive better with their 5++ and they have a huge threath of they survive because of the advance after charging.
I would not that I am not discussing new rules. But that is how the mathhammer checks out.
Red Corsair wrote: points don't fix these kinds of issues alone. Purestrains should gain the cult creed to start, same with the vehicles.
Then as a balance so we are not forced into ambushing, acolytes and metamorphs should gain advance and charge at a slight price hike. Makes no sense to me that an ork can advance and charge while a mutant with genestealer blood cannot.
I would love it if there was a way to get advance + charge on our guys. Be it a strat, a creed, a built in ability with a price-hike, a relic with an aura....anything. I think that would be a great fix that would keep the deep strike shenanigans to a minimum, as GW seems to want, while also letting us be a melee army. Limiting it to Acolytes/Metamorphs/Genestealers is a good idea too. Our guys are so easy to kill that we need that speed. Right now our we're all in on the charge rolls after deep-strike. The army appears to be skill intensive...but it's just trick intensive. And those tricks are all aiming to do the same general thing: all-in on a few 'delete' units getting close and making a charge roll.
And a big yes to vehicles getting the cult creeds but not the AM vehicles, just the mining ones.
C4E Broodsurge Neophytes in range of a Clamavus basically get to deploy out of deepstrike directly into combat. Don’t even try to tell me that’s not one of the best tarpits in the game especially since you can get them Fearless and FNP easily with the Iconward and Patriarch (the real reason you took Broodsurge in the first place). Then if you are running a Primus you can do silly things with a 20 man banner Hybrid unit by using the Broodsurge strat and perhaps even Might buffs, definitely gets mileage for a 110 pt unit.
I think some people are spamming cheap Mining Lasers too which is kinda cool. Haven’t tried that personally but some seem to swear by it.
Niiai wrote: Abberants come out better vs really big things, so they have a home.
20 Acolytes with 8 saws + icon are a better deal. Yes, the need some buffs like; primus and broodsurge bonuses but abberants also need bonuses.
8 saws + icon with primus, might from beyond or +1 strength icon and +1 to wound broodsurge stratagem kills knights just as well as an abberant unit.
I know you like to theorycraft a lot mate, but the thing is it's a lot easier to bring Aberrants into base-to-base than 20 Acolytes, especially with screens everywhere. Apply that same Might and Strength buff to Abberants and you can get S8 picks and a whole gang of attacks, and a fight Twice stratagem, and a strat to fight again off anyone who goes down to the stomp. I don't think it's fair to say Aberrants don't have a home at all.
SHUPPET wrote: C4E Broodsurge Neophytes in range of a Clamavus basically get to deploy out of deepstrike directly into combat. Don’t even try to tell me that’s not one of the best tarpits in the game especially since you can get them Fearless and FNP easily with the Iconward and Patriarch (the real reason you took Broodsurge in the first place). Then if you are running a Primus you can do silly things with a 20 man banner Hybrid unit by using the Broodsurge strat and perhaps even Might buffs, definitely gets mileage for a 110 pt unit.
I think some people are spamming cheap Mining Lasers too which is kinda cool. Haven’t tried that personally but some seem to swear by it.
When the index first hit I remember making a list with 250 neophytes all with double ML and a shed load of patriarchs since rule of three wasn't a thing. I obviously never did it because it was just silly, so spamming ML has never left my head, but acquiring the amount needed is a pain since you get one per box of 10. I was at least lucky enough to have 6 from overkill sets.
I have 10 mining laser currently, so thats the most I can deploy and yea it's fairly solid AT. Definitely worth considering IMO over hitting things with your fists. Much less risk and it takes less moving parts. Basically, it's reversing responsibilities a bit, instead of hoping a bunch of auto guns and mortars will clear hordes so you can charge in with anti tank/ MC you basically shoot the tanks comfortably and use your chargers to clear the horde. I was seeing a lot of players using acolytes for double duty which is OK, but your asking a bit much IMO when you want a bunch of t3 guys to clear through screens then move on and hit the guns. Near an alphus neophytes and even trucks become very solid. I finally finished assembling my last few trucks, I have 6 trucks and 3 grinders now. I plan to "rhino rush" my acolytes while I ambush in my neophytes. It also doesn't hurt having the ability to embark my characters when vindicares are a pain. The army is hard mode in ITC format but for book missions it is actually very good.
Niiai wrote: Abberants come out better vs really big things, so they have a home.
20 Acolytes with 8 saws + icon are a better deal. Yes, the need some buffs like; primus and broodsurge bonuses but abberants also need bonuses.
8 saws + icon with primus, might from beyond or +1 strength icon and +1 to wound broodsurge stratagem kills knights just as well as an abberant unit.
I know you like to theorycraft a lot mate, but the thing is it's a lot easier to bring Aberrants into base-to-base than 20 Acolytes, especially with screens everywhere. Apply that same Might and Strength buff to Abberants and you can get S8 picks and a whole gang of attacks, and a fight Twice stratagem, and a strat to fight again off anyone who goes down to the stomp. I don't think it's fair to say Aberrants don't have a home at all.
I like abberants because I can take them in 5 man teams and they can sneakily drop into areas that are hard to get at, areas where a large unit of acolytes would be flat impossible to deploy. the 32mm basing is really a struggle on GEQ profile models. It's even more ridiculous with regular genestealers being on 25's still So yea, I can back what your saying here. Also don't forget our only access to fighting twice is exclusive to abberants, albeit locked into T Helix.
I won a local escalation tournament and purchased the big Jackal box. I'm already running Rusted Claw so these will be Rusted Claw as well. Now I'll have 20 of the Jackal Models because I was already running the smaller box. I'm planning on running 2x units of 2 Wolf Quads with the Mining Lasers. 5 Bikes with Shotguns and Democharges but what about the other 3? Cultist Knives or double up on the weapons and run a grenade launcher and shotguns.
I'm not going to run the Ridgebacks competitively but after I get them painted up they might not be awful if you have first turn and can scout move them and run you Jackal Alpha up to buff them up to 3+ with the mining laser and the flare to move your bikes up at 6 inches.
Ordana wrote: the 10 Demo unit lets you throw Demo charges at a Knight twice on the turn you come down. (which is what happened in the Adepticon game that was on stream)
It still has its place.
Getting the bikes in range for the ambush on a knight sounds really difficult. Even the smallest screen win ruin everything
Just theory, but using all the strats would let you demo charge a screening unit out the way then zoom through the gap for the shooting phase...
We just talked about this. You cannot move after arriving from Reserves unless specifically allowed.
So you don't get the free move after throwing grenades.
Forgive me if I'm being thick, but how does the Drive By strat not allow you to move after throwing your grenades? It specifically states that you can "immediately move as if it were the movement phase." Wouldn't this circumvent the deepstrike movement restriction as it is contingent on the unit throwing grenades? Maybe it doesn't stack with A Perfect Ambush in the Movement phase, but at the very least it should work during the Shooting Phase.
I have been chewing on this general concept for a while, and this will be the first time my work schedule lets me play since the book dropped. The general idea is to use the Carnifexes and Termagants to clear out screens and light infantry, the Rippers to hold objectives, and the big Acolyte units to kill heavy things.
I have 14 CP to play with. I spend one on Brood Coven, giving the Patriarch a buff, the Primus +3" auras, and the Magus + d3 CP. I spend 2 CP to put the Termagants and a Neurothrope in tunnels (12 remaining).
I deploy both Ripper broods, both Carnifex broods, a Neurothrope, the Magos, Sactus, the flamer Acolytes, and the Nexus (9 down). I reserve the Raveners, Termagants, a Neurothrope, the Kellermorph, Patriarch, Primus, Clamavus, and the other Acolytes (9 up). In general, turn 1, I plan to use the Rippers to screen the Carnifexes, the flamers and the Nexus to stand on my in deployment objectives, and to be aggressive with the Carnifexes, Magos, and the Neurothrope.
Turn 2 I drop in the Termagants and one of the Acolyte units. Which one I drop and if I drop the Patriarch/Primus/Clamavus depends on how well screened my targets are. My default is going to be to bring them in, and hope I have enough bodies on the table to keep the characters intact for a turn. Double tapping the Termagants and getting the Acolytes in costs 5 CP. Ideally the Magos will be close enough to cast Strength from Beyond, and one of the Neurothropes will try for the Horror for sweet sweet leadership debuffs. Turn 3 I drop the other Acolyte unit, spend my 3 CP, and look to finish him off.
My 5 man flamer unit is going to spend most of the game sitting behind a wall, claiming an objective. If they do nothing else, I'm fine with it, because cheap battalion filler. I'm going to be watching for a lightly held objective (Rippers, guard squads, Neophytes), with the goal of picking them up and dropping them onto said objective the next turn (3CP total) in order to flame down the unit holding it and steal the objective.
babelfish wrote: Playing a local this weekend. Put together a list consisting of an idea I wanted to try, and the models GSC models I had at least primed.
2000 point ITC Genestealer Cult/Tyranids
Spoiler:
Twisted Helix Battalion
Patriarch
Primus
Acolyte x 5 (5x Flamers)
Acolyte x20 (Icon, 6x Saws, 2x Rock Cutters)
Acolyte x 15 (Icon, 6x Drills)
Clamavus
C4AE Vanguard
Magus
Kelermorph
Nexos
Sanctus (relic rifle)
I have been chewing on this general concept for a while, and this will be the first time my work schedule lets me play since the book dropped. The general idea is to use the Carnifexes and Termagants to clear out screens and light infantry, the Rippers to hold objectives, and the big Acolyte units to kill heavy things.
I have 14 CP to play with. I spend one on Brood Coven, giving the Patriarch a buff, the Primus +3" auras, and the Magus + d3 CP. I spend 2 CP to put the Termagants and a Neurothrope in tunnels (12 remaining).
I deploy both Ripper broods, both Carnifex broods, a Neurothrope, the Magos, Sactus, the flamer Acolytes, and the Nexus (9 down). I reserve the Raveners, Termagants, a Neurothrope, the Kellermorph, Patriarch, Primus, Clamavus, and the other Acolytes (9 up). In general, turn 1, I plan to use the Rippers to screen the Carnifexes, the flamers and the Nexus to stand on my in deployment objectives, and to be aggressive with the Carnifexes, Magos, and the Neurothrope.
Turn 2 I drop in the Termagants and one of the Acolyte units. Which one I drop and if I drop the Patriarch/Primus/Clamavus depends on how well screened my targets are. My default is going to be to bring them in, and hope I have enough bodies on the table to keep the characters intact for a turn. Double tapping the Termagants and getting the Acolytes in costs 5 CP. Ideally the Magos will be close enough to cast Strength from Beyond, and one of the Neurothropes will try for the Horror for sweet sweet leadership debuffs. Turn 3 I drop the other Acolyte unit, spend my 3 CP, and look to finish him off.
My 5 man flamer unit is going to spend most of the game sitting behind a wall, claiming an objective. If they do nothing else, I'm fine with it, because cheap battalion filler. I'm going to be watching for a lightly held objective (Rippers, guard squads, Neophytes), with the goal of picking them up and dropping them onto said objective the next turn (3CP total) in order to flame down the unit holding it and steal the objective.
I had the exact same idea for the vanguard detachment to support my tyranids. I'm curious to know how it does.
Ordana wrote: the 10 Demo unit lets you throw Demo charges at a Knight twice on the turn you come down. (which is what happened in the Adepticon game that was on stream)
It still has its place.
Getting the bikes in range for the ambush on a knight sounds really difficult. Even the smallest screen win ruin everything
Just theory, but using all the strats would let you demo charge a screening unit out the way then zoom through the gap for the shooting phase...
We just talked about this. You cannot move after arriving from Reserves unless specifically allowed.
So you don't get the free move after throwing grenades.
Forgive me if I'm being thick, but how does the Drive By strat not allow you to move after throwing your grenades? It specifically states that you can "immediately move as if it were the movement phase." Wouldn't this circumvent the deepstrike movement restriction as it is contingent on the unit throwing grenades? Maybe it doesn't stack with A Perfect Ambush in the Movement phase, but at the very least it should work during the Shooting Phase.
The rulebook faq is very clear and leaves no room for interpetation.
The rules for reinforcements say that when a unit is set up on
the battlefield as reinforcements, it cannot move or Advance
further that turn, but can otherwise act normally (shoot,
charge, etc.).
Q: Can such a unit move or Advance for any other reason
e.g. because of an ability such as The Swarmlord’s Hive
Commander ability, or because of a psychic power such as
Warptime from the Dark Hereticus discipline, or because
of a Stratagem like Metabolic Overdrive from Codex:
Tyranids, etc.?
A: No.
Only things that specifically mention that they overwrite this (like Perfect Ambush does) can be used. Drive-by Demolitions does not overwrite it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
babelfish wrote: Playing a local this weekend. Put together a list consisting of an idea I wanted to try, and the models GSC models I had at least primed.
2000 point ITC Genestealer Cult/Tyranids
Spoiler:
Twisted Helix Battalion
Patriarch
Primus
Acolyte x 5 (5x Flamers)
Acolyte x20 (Icon, 6x Saws, 2x Rock Cutters)
Acolyte x 15 (Icon, 6x Drills)
Clamavus
C4AE Vanguard
Magus
Kelermorph
Nexos
Sanctus (relic rifle)
I have been chewing on this general concept for a while, and this will be the first time my work schedule lets me play since the book dropped. The general idea is to use the Carnifexes and Termagants to clear out screens and light infantry, the Rippers to hold objectives, and the big Acolyte units to kill heavy things.
I have 14 CP to play with. I spend one on Brood Coven, giving the Patriarch a buff, the Primus +3" auras, and the Magus + d3 CP. I spend 2 CP to put the Termagants and a Neurothrope in tunnels (12 remaining).
I deploy both Ripper broods, both Carnifex broods, a Neurothrope, the Magos, Sactus, the flamer Acolytes, and the Nexus (9 down). I reserve the Raveners, Termagants, a Neurothrope, the Kellermorph, Patriarch, Primus, Clamavus, and the other Acolytes (9 up). In general, turn 1, I plan to use the Rippers to screen the Carnifexes, the flamers and the Nexus to stand on my in deployment objectives, and to be aggressive with the Carnifexes, Magos, and the Neurothrope.
Turn 2 I drop in the Termagants and one of the Acolyte units. Which one I drop and if I drop the Patriarch/Primus/Clamavus depends on how well screened my targets are. My default is going to be to bring them in, and hope I have enough bodies on the table to keep the characters intact for a turn. Double tapping the Termagants and getting the Acolytes in costs 5 CP. Ideally the Magos will be close enough to cast Strength from Beyond, and one of the Neurothropes will try for the Horror for sweet sweet leadership debuffs. Turn 3 I drop the other Acolyte unit, spend my 3 CP, and look to finish him off.
My 5 man flamer unit is going to spend most of the game sitting behind a wall, claiming an objective. If they do nothing else, I'm fine with it, because cheap battalion filler. I'm going to be watching for a lightly held objective (Rippers, guard squads, Neophytes), with the goal of picking them up and dropping them onto said objective the next turn (3CP total) in order to flame down the unit holding it and steal the objective.
Your Nexos is pretty useless because he needs to roll 6's. Not having 4AE for your assault elements in a huge deal, you cannot afford to fail those charges, same with not having the re-roll from Broodsurge Iconward.
What's the hot take on Neophytes with Shotguns? Do the benefits makeup for the loss of range compared to Autoguns?
I have fifty million (give or take) Guardsmen I could use as Brood Brothers anyway, so I'm considering building my Neophytes with them, but if it's a waste of time I'm content with Autoguns.
Your Nexos is pretty useless because he needs to roll 6's. Not having 4AE for your assault elements in a huge deal, you cannot afford to fail those charges, same with not having the re-roll from Broodsurge Iconward.
<Got rid of a bunch of clutter>
I don't mind the Nexos being on 6's. I think the two or three CP I get out of him is worth his cost. That said, I am on the fence about Twisted Helix. I can very much see the argument for running the entire thing as 4AE. I don't have access to Broodsurge yet (spent my gaming funds this month on models instead). I may just swap to pure 4AE and rely on Might from Beyond for the S buff. The extra CP out of the Nexos will be a nice addition
As the faq said "that model can either shoot as if it were your Shooting phase, or make a single close combat attack as if it were the Fight phase."
Resolving an attack does not include moves. Furthermore this is a special action made in psychic phase. Imo this does only use step 3-5 from the fight phase.
If it said "fight as if it were the fight phase' then yes, but since it specifically says 'make a single cc attack' that's all you get to do, no pile in/consolidate.
Arbitrator wrote: What's the hot take on Neophytes with Shotguns? Do the benefits makeup for the loss of range compared to Autoguns?
I have fifty million (give or take) Guardsmen I could use as Brood Brothers anyway, so I'm considering building my Neophytes with them, but if it's a waste of time I'm content with Autoguns.
My experience has been that the range is rarely a factor. Usually mine either drop in via ambush or get assigned to mid-field objectives where the foe will generally come to them one way or another. I really like the extra strength that can be had at 6'', as it makes a huge difference against most infantry and the squad has enough volume of fire to be threatening. I've also won games by having a shotgun squad advance to an objective to contest and kill just enough of the opposing models with their subsequent shooting to claim the objective outright.
For footsloggers that aren't taking much in the way of additional weaponry I'd recommend the shotguns. For truck-mounted squads the autoguns + heavy mining weapons are better since they offer more force concentration and the range is more important (Goliath Trucks generally like to hang back if they can help it).
EDIT: Found out that "Lying In Wait" can't be used 1st turn and Perfect Ambush cannot be used in Psychic phase so this whole concept collapses.
Has anyone made use of Telepathic Summons for Turn 1 deep-strike? It seems to me that if we're able to start pressuring screens and key units from turn 1 we'll be in a much better place as the game goes on. I'm going to try it out but I'd like to hear other experiences with this angle.
Keeping back 80 points and putting a Magus or Patriarch on board opens up quite a lot of opportunity. Mind you, you have to have the models available in your collection so this is not likely a strategy that will be easily available for newer players.
It's very likely on the 3D6 summoning roll to get any of the following units, chosen based on opponent and deployment opportunities.
80 Points (6PL) for 10 Acolytes with Handflamers
80 Points (5PL) for 20 Brood Brothers
80 Points (6PL) 10 bare-bones Bikes
78 Pts. (3PL) HWT with Lascannons
77 Pts. (6PL) 7 Metamorphs w/2 Talons
75 Points (6PL) for 5 Bike Demo Squad
60 Pts. (3PL) Kellermorph
60 Pts. (3PL) Sanctus
Most of these are going to need to use further strats such as Lying In Wait, Perfect Ambush and Extra Explosives so it's expensive CP wise but it does give us a chance to do some of our most powerful stuff an additional time per game. Usually in my experience the units that use those strats are doing their thing on T2 and T3. Pushing back the opportunity by a whole turn is pretty exciting.
There's a lot of tactical variety possible in only 80 points of reserves. For instance 10 Bikes are excellent at movement blocking if you go first and can do a decent job of screen clearing with just blasting charges at the Rusted Claw strat to buff them. Kellermorphs, with their small foot-print can find cracks in early deployment. Metamorphs put out insane amounts of attacks but don't get used because they compete with Acolytes who want to use Perfect Ambush as well. It's also nice to have an Acolyte Handflamer unit on T1 so the Bikes can use "Lying In Wait" turns 2 and 3. Same basic idea...spreading out the strat use over an additional early turn.
In the case of Metamorphs I don't think summoning is a bad idea at all. Their biomorphs are very specialized compared to the weapon options on the other assault troops, so being able to tailor their load-out for the opponent is really helpful. Plus, if you have a match-up where you don't need a mass attack anti-infantry specialist you can recycle the set aside points for something else.
For first turn summoning, I'd probably lean towards one of the 3rd/4th generation units. Being able to shoot after arriving means you aren't in quite as much trouble if fail a charge with them, and generally speaking they are more durable-per-point than the assault specialists. Purestrains might be a good subject too due to their mobility. Just drop them out of line of sight on the opponent's side of the table and move in turn 2 with the rest of the ambushers.
Considering this for a 1000pt list. Please let me know what you think. It's not meant to be hyper-competitive, but I still want it to be reasonably powerful. The Brood Brothers are mainly there because I have loads of Guardsmen models.
As far as shooty lists, despite Hivecult seemingly best suited for it I’d have to say their benefits are kind of outweighed by what you get from Rusted Claw or Bladed Cog. Maybe a detachment of Hivecult sitting in the back buffing a bunch of Laser Ridgerunners, but the bulk should be something else for survivability.
Can anyone recommend a decent all-purpose loadout for Atalan Jackals? I have a bunch of models to build but I am still pretty new to 40k and they have so many weapon options that I am struggling to figure out how they are supposed to be effective.
Their stats seem like they would be terrible for mêlée but then their shooting options seem fairly awful as well. The quads have better guns but they won't be able to use them very effectively unless I waste the unit's mobility by having them stay still. At the moment I feel like I should just give everyone a crappy shotgun and that's it.
I am only likely to be playing casual games but I would prefer if they were not completely useless. My main army is Bladed Cog and I don't really want to stick these guys in a different detachment if I can help it.
Not to be a broken record, but I think hive cult can be good with flamers. Shoot. Get assaulted. Survive, fall back, flame again. I have not tested it out in practice though.
Bilge Rat wrote: Can anyone recommend a decent all-purpose loadout for Atalan Jackals? I have a bunch of models to build but I am still pretty new to 40k and they have so many weapon options that I am struggling to figure out how they are supposed to be effective.
Their stats seem like they would be terrible for mêlée but then their shooting options seem fairly awful as well. The quads have better guns but they won't be able to use them very effectively unless I waste the unit's mobility by having them stay still. At the moment I feel like I should just give everyone a crappy shotgun and that's it.
I am only likely to be playing casual games but I would prefer if they were not completely useless. My main army is Bladed Cog and I don't really want to stick these guys in a different detachment if I can help it.
Thanks for any advice!
I have magnetized the arms with the weapons, as well as the part attaching the weapon to the wolf quad. It’s pretty simple to do
Badablack wrote:As far as shooty lists, despite Hivecult seemingly best suited for it I’d have to say their benefits are kind of outweighed by what you get from Rusted Claw or Bladed Cog. Maybe a detachment of Hivecult sitting in the back buffing a bunch of Laser Ridgerunners, but the bulk should be something else for survivability.
I think it depends on what you are trying to do. Hivecult basically wants to castle up and shell the opposition to the ground with accurate firepower, while Rusted Claw is more about mid-field dominance and Bladed Cog is more a combined arms force that wants a mix of melee and shooting to take full advantage of their toolkit. I think the main issue you will probably have with Hivecult is that they basically want to be run pure or with an AM detachment to lend more firepower (tank commanders and artillery). They don't really play well with the other cults, since they are so specific in what they want to do there generally isn't going to be enough points left over to give their ally the tools they require.
Also speaking of Bladed Cog, I have had very good experiences so far with an Abominant under their creed. The Bladed Cog relic is phenomenal on him. I had one "learning" game with some new players where he was the only thing left at the end of the game and he survived 3 turns of their entire army pummeling him with small arms fire between the 3++, bestial vigor, and regeneration. Overthrow the Oppressors also pairs nicely with his aura on Hammerant squads, to make exploding hits also grant another to-hit roll.
Bilge Rat wrote:Can anyone recommend a decent all-purpose loadout for Atalan Jackals? I have a bunch of models to build but I am still pretty new to 40k and they have so many weapon options that I am struggling to figure out how they are supposed to be effective.
So far I've only played with full shotgun squads (planning on getting some grenade launchers to add in eventually, wanted to keep them cheap for the first few squads), but I think 2x autopistol + cult knife squads might have some interesting potential as skirmishers (can shoot, charge, and still shoot if they end up bogged down). The main thing to keep in mind with Jackals is that their primary job is to be a (relatively) durable on-table presence and draw fire away from more important things (point per point they are one of the most durable things in the army with their -1 to hit, T4, and wounds), Offensively their main job is chaff clearing for assault squads, which from my experience they do fairly well with support from their Alphus. The extended range on her aura for them is really helpful in making the most out of their limited amount of shots.
They also make for a very nice bomb with Demolition Charges if you have something you really need gone, though such usage is very CP hungry.
For the Wolfquad, I'd suggest the Heavy Stubber + shotgun for squads carrying demolition charges (1x wolfquad with heavy stubber is cheaper per wound than 2x bikes, so you can use it to tank wounds for the explosive carriers) and the Incinerator for chaff-clearing squads. The Mining Laser is nice for Rusted Claw but less appealing for the other creeds due to its single-shot nature (Alphus helps a bit, but Rusted Claw benefits even more). Note that the heavy weapons and related ammo stowage fit snuggly in place without glue, so you can swap them out to your heart's content without needing magnets.
I'm trying to cut down on the number of models I have to paint since I enjoy spending time on a few models more than painting larger groups (especially when they're as detailed as the Acolyte and Neophyte models)
I know that GSC is typically known as a horde army but I've been wondering if there's a viable (or at least not terrible) cutting down on the model count by using things like Aberrants, Atalans (these especially appeal to me), Goliaths and Ridgerunners.
So, any advice on how to pull this off?
If it helps, what I have built and painted so far is:
10x Acolytes/Metamorphs (I'm leaning towards making them Metamorphs with twin Talons)
10x Neophytes (probably going to be a shotgun posse for a Kelermorph)
MCStanden wrote: I'm trying to cut down on the number of models I have to paint since I enjoy spending time on a few models more than painting larger groups (especially when they're as detailed as the Acolyte and Neophyte models)
I know that GSC is typically known as a horde army but I've been wondering if there's a viable (or at least not terrible) cutting down on the model count by using things like Aberrants, Atalans (these especially appeal to me), Goliaths and Ridgerunners.
So, any advice on how to pull this off?
If it helps, what I have built and painted so far is:
10x Acolytes/Metamorphs (I'm leaning towards making them Metamorphs with twin Talons)
10x Neophytes (probably going to be a shotgun posse for a Kelermorph)
I really like 10 Neos in a truck with 2x mining laser and 2x GL. I often play 2 of these with an Alphus it's a nice little mobile firebase.
MCStanden wrote: I'm trying to cut down on the number of models I have to paint since I enjoy spending time on a few models more than painting larger groups (especially when they're as detailed as the Acolyte and Neophyte models)
I know that GSC is typically known as a horde army but I've been wondering if there's a viable (or at least not terrible) cutting down on the model count by using things like Aberrants, Atalans (these especially appeal to me), Goliaths and Ridgerunners.
So, any advice on how to pull this off?
If it helps, what I have built and painted so far is:
10x Acolytes/Metamorphs (I'm leaning towards making them Metamorphs with twin Talons)
10x Neophytes (probably going to be a shotgun posse for a Kelermorph)
I really like 10 Neos in a truck with 2x mining laser and 2x GL. I often play 2 of these with an Alphus it's a nice little mobile firebase.
Is the Alphus just for buffing the Trucks' Autocannons and Heavy Stubber? I didn't think the aura affected units in transports.
Is the Alphus just for buffing the Trucks' Autocannons and Heavy Stubber? I didn't think the aura affected units in transports.
In the Goliath truck entry under "Open Topped" it states that any restrictions or modifiers that apply to the truck also apply to the crew it's transporting.
Is the Alphus just for buffing the Trucks' Autocannons and Heavy Stubber? I didn't think the aura affected units in transports.
In the Goliath truck entry under "Open Topped" it states that any restrictions or modifiers that apply to the truck also apply to the crew it's transporting.
From the BRBFAQ:
“Q: If a transport with the Open-topped ability (e.g. a Trukk) is within range of an aura ability, are units that are embarked upon that transport affected by that ability? A: No.”
A unit of Neophytes with double mining lasers Perfect Ambushing next to a Kelermorph and a Jackal Alphus can kick out 4 laser shots that hit on 3's. Rather situational, but all the parts are units you are likely taking in the first place, and there is very little that can be done to prevent it.
A 20 man with shotguns, two heavy stubbers and two grenade launchers Perfect Ambushing and Lying in Wait + the character's gets 62 (15 shotguns + 2 heavy stubbers) S4 shots and 4 d6 S3 shots, all hitting on 3's.
Flamer Hybrids are probably better, but it is an idea worth kicking around.
Niiai wrote: What is the codex wording? Spesific wording trumps general statements.
From the truck entry: "Open -Topped: Models embarked on this model can attack in their Shooting phase. Measure the range and draw line of sight from any point on this model. When they do so, any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers; for example, the passengers cannot shoot if this model has Fallen Back in the same turn, cannot shoot (except with Pistols) if this model is within 1" of an enemy unit, and so on."
Niiai wrote: What is the codex wording? Spesific wording trumps general statements.
From the truck entry: "Open -Topped: Models embarked on this model can attack in their Shooting phase. Measure the range and draw line of sight from any point on this model. When they do so, any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers; for example, the passengers cannot shoot if this model has Fallen Back in the same turn, cannot shoot (except with Pistols) if this model is within 1" of an enemy unit, and so on."
That's exactly what the Ork Trukk's version of the rule says too, and yet the FAQ specifically calls out Trukks when it says that passengers aren't affected. Is this just an example of GW giving us confusing and contradictory rules?
Don't get me wrong, I'd love it if auras affected passengers, but it looks to me that that just isn't the case.
To be fair, there is some room for debate on this one.
A unit inside a transport is not directly affected by an aura. Fair enough, as it's not technically on the table. So say you had the ever common re-roll 1's aura, a unit in a transport would not get it.
However a unit in a transport does inherit any Restrictions or Modifiers applied to the transport. That's kinda interesting.
Restrictions is clear enough. Things that would prevent someone from shooting, like advancing and firing a non-assault weapon. These will also affect the passengers.
Modifiers refers to effects that add +1 or -1 to a roll.
So I see a possible argument, that if you have an aura that applies a positive (or negative) Modifier to a transport (e.g. +1 to its hit rolls), then this would be inherited by the unit inside. The unit isn't directly affected by the aura, but it does inherit modifiers.
It's something that could be debated back and forth in YMDC I imagine.
So I see a possible argument, that if you have an aura that applies a positive (or negative) Modifier to a transport (e.g. +1 to its hit rolls), then this would be inherited by the unit inside. The unit isn't directly affected by the aura, but it does inherit modifiers.
It's something that could be debated back and forth in YMDC I imagine.
Yep. Modifiers apply. Like with orks if you have freeboota trukk and freeboota unit and activate the clan trait(+1 to hit for freeboota units within 24" that destroyed enemy unit that phase) the trukk would get +1 to hit and as it's modifier also applies to the contents inside.
So if GSC open topped vehicle gets +1 to hit from any source the riders inside gets it as well. No strategems or non-modifier aura effects though.
18 CP -1CP Field commander
-1CP Broodsurge detachment
-1CP extra relic
-1CP broodcoven
+d3 CP inscrutable cunning
Strategy:
Blue units deploy with blieps and 3 big acolyte units can be put in reserves with stratagem. The rest is put in normal reserves/cult ambush.
First turn: removing bubble wrap with mortars. Could summon an extra shooty unit if needed. If I get first turn and the opponent lacks long distance shooting I could put the patriarch back into the shadows. Probably going to do this second turn though..
Second turn: hand flamer/demolition unit deploys with lying in wait and start flaming/trowing demolition bombs closeby. Big broodsurge blob deploys around characters and charge with +1 and reroll charge. Patriarch get's +3 leadership and uses mental onslaught on a juicy target. One unit uses perfect ambush.
A few things I noticed:
- A lot of players wrote in this topic: "You need 'Cult of the four armed emperor' because you need +1 charge". I would always pick rusted claw because the +1 save is just too good. A smart opponent knows how to bubble wrap his army and the broodsurge acolyte combo cannot assault all the juicy stuff and need to take a hit at some time.
- I like the 130 points summoning option. It's the perfect amount of points for all kind of different units. 10 acolytes with 4 rock saws, 10 metamorphs with icon, 20 neophytes with shooty things. 5 power pick abberants etc..
- In a tournament setting, I need a chess clock. I can play fast but my opponent's take up a lot of time with 98 acolytes in their face. I expect a lot of stuff to die and still win the objectives.
- I also like the patriarchs. Even when most of my acolytes die I still got 3 very fast patriarch's. Put units close by and 'unquestionable loyalty' keeps them rather save.
- A lot of players wrote in this topic: "You need 'Cult of the four armed emperor' because you need +1 charge". I would always pick rusted claw because the +1 save is just too good. A smart opponent knows how to bubble wrap his army and the broodsurge acolyte combo cannot assault all the juicy stuff and need to take a hit at some time.
Then you want to charge the bubble wrap - or if that seems like a bad idea, just don't attempt it that turn. Whatever the case, you need to be able to have some sort of consistency with charging out of DS. 60 Acolytes deploying within 9" of your opponents entire force, with no bonus to charge, is just basically throwing away points, +1 to save isn't changing that. Plus haven't you invested mortars into like 7 different squads to help deal with the screens? This does not seem like a wise call at all.
an 8" re-rolling charge is ~66% chance
a 7" re-rolling charge is ~82% chance
Failing charges costs you games, and in those situations a 4+ instead of a 5+ is, imo, unlikely to save you.
You indeed often can't hit the juicy stuff turn 2 but that's why most list use 2 punches.
Turn 2 some stuff comes down to charge and clear screens.
T3 the rest comes to use the space created the previous turn.
Trying something a little different this time around. More mobility, less all-in on ambushing. There's a big turn 1 presence on the field with several blobs: (1)Neophytes/Truck with Alphus (Warlord) giving to hit bonus, (2) Sentinel Power Lifters, (3)single Jackal unit with Demo charges, (4) Basilisks, Mortars. Turn 2 looks like 40 Brood Brothers with Tempestor to clear screens along with whatever from turn 1 is left (and/or required for the job). Turn 3 the Acolyte rock-saw squads +Iconward, +1 Clamavus, +Primus come down either all in one big group or split up a bit.
I like the Brood Brother/Tempestor for screen-clearing because it requires 0 CP and can more easily show up and be effective given their 12" rapid fire range. Once my opponent's know they can't leave 7" gaps in their lines because of Lying In Wait it's harder to make good use of units like Acolyte Flamer bombs. The Brood Bros. are also flexible in that they can be deployed for screening instead of screen-clearing if required. These guys can hold objectives like a boss with a Patriarch keeping them fearless. Basilisks are very flexible and help knock the last few wounds off of vehicles or concentrate fire on a stubborn unit in cover.
This list still has a hard hitting ambush but is also very flexible and fairly fast. I could split it up into two Battalions for C4AE on the Acolytes though that would require buying another HQ slot...probably swap out the Powerlifters for a Patriarch. Patriarch would do well with the bigger aura WLT to keep all these huge squads from losing models to morale checks.
So I wasn't trying to make you or anyone who did it feel bad. To me it just seemed like an obvious exploit/hole, but as you just said, like 5 other things were worse and ignored. I have no idea how I will play the sanctus vs T-sons because there is no way I am punishing some poor bastard for actually fielding rubrics.
