1.) No idea. Our vehicles still aren't great, even post-codex.
2.) Yeah, that's kind of the armies shtick.
3.) Between all of the bonuses to charges, rerolls and stratagems, psychic powers, etc.
4.) Playing smart. This army has some nuance, and proper target priority is a must. Accepting you send some of your units to die, so that others can kill things, or hold points, is part of that.
5.) Depends. I wouldn't, personally, ever invest heavily in Guardsmen models. I give him webbers because they're super cheap.
6.) Rusted Claw survives. Helix and Four Armed kill things. The rest are memes.
Which Goliath? Standard one is handy for drivebys, seeing as it’s open topped. I’d fill it with with either handflamer Acolytes, or Shotgun Neophytes. Both can kick out impressive levels of firepower.
Alpha Strikes? They’re useful, but we can also hug cover to boost those saves a bit.
Charging? Same as everyone else really. Cunning movement prior to the charge.
Perfect Ambush? Bit of a Red Herring. It’s useful, but far from essential. What you end up using it on is incredibly situational, and for me largely depends upon if and indeed where my opponent has been caught with his trousers down. If a big heavy/nasty thing is expose, likely my Aberrants. If it’s infantry or (luck of luck) a character, it’ll be the Acolytes benefitting.
Neophytes? Mine will be around 15 strong, and relatively bare bones at the moment. They’re there to control objectives in my table half. Sitting in cover, and ideally with some LoS blocking, they can prove tricky to shift. Shotguns and Autoguns both have their perks, and I’m not sure there’s really anything between them.
Creeds? Again depends on your overall strategy and army selection. Despite not taking Jackals at the moment, I’m going with Rusted Claw. As my master plan is swampimg Objectives, their armour boost rule can pay dividends. Hybrids wind up with a 3+ armour in cover. My Sanctus, potentially a 2+ save (normal, +2 for cloak, +1 for Rusted Claw)
I’d suggest just doodling a list of stuff wot you like units wise, then worry about what Creed you want to plump for.
1: What is the goliath for? I can not deside it's intended purpose, nor what gun to put on it.
2: So much of our army crumbles to the slightest breese. Is it alpha strikes all the way?
3: Charging. How do you pull it off? We can do a perfect ambush turn 2 and 3. But what else outside of that`?
4: How do you deside of what to perfect ambush?
Acolyte hybrids with weapons and genstealers seems like the best all rounders. Hybrid Metamrophs and Abberants seems specialised vs no armour saves and vs heavy tragets respectivly.
5: What are good set ups for neophyte hybrids? What roles can they do?
6: What do the different cult creeds do well?
1. It's sadly for sitting on a shelf. If the Castellan gets hit with a nerf bat they are cheap enough as transports to put troops in them and shoot bs 3+ autocannons at certain targets with the help of a Jackal.
2. I wouldn't say all but you do need to inflict maximum damage turns 2 & 3 with your incoming units because if to much of the enemy is left you'll fold in the last 3 turns or be playing cat and mouse pretty hard for points.
3. You have perfect ambush, you have 8" rerollable charges if you take the specialist detachment for Acolytes & Neophytes (7" if you run 4-armed emperor creed but I'm not a fan)
4. Generally have 3-4 units you'd like to based on type of enemy units and then pick and play. Generally though I'm personally looking at Metamorphs and Acolytes as I think 3 acolytes crushes 1 abberant in damage output.
5. My neophytes are a highly like to be groups of 10 with 2 Heavy Stubbers and 2 Webbers with the +1 Save if the attack is 0/-1 AP. That allows me to have 3+ save neophytes in cover that with jackal support can help shred lighter screens. Though I might switch to grenade launchers for the same range.
6. Twisted Helix gives you amazing Characters and can make your bikes and infantry hit harder. Rusted Claw (the save one) is good for horde and biker armies with all the bonus saves and their grenade strat. 4-Armed emp is for people who really wanna vect and feel the +1" to their arriving turn charge is worth it. The others didn't really register with me honestly so I can't tell you.
5.) Depends. I wouldn't, personally, ever invest heavily in Guardsmen models. I give him webbers because they're super cheap.
Why's that, aside from painting and assembly and $ cost (unless that's what you mean)? Guardsmen seem really nice for filling out battalions versus neophytes, to me.
5.) Depends. I wouldn't, personally, ever invest heavily in Guardsmen models. I give him webbers because they're super cheap.
Why's that, aside from painting and assembly and $ cost (unless that's what you mean)? Guardsmen seem really nice for filling out battalions versus neophytes, to me.
No, you misunderstood me.
I'm calling Neophytes Guardsmen because that's their statline, and saying it's pointless to invest POINTS in them, beyond basics.
As far as making a fast horde army that starts on the board, Twisted Helix with Deliverance Broodsurge, an Iconward with the Broodsurge warlord trait and a Clamavus means a bunch of acolytes going 6 + rerollable D6 + 3 which is faster and cheaper than genestealers. Every character you throw in just increases their power exponentially.
I wouldn’t even bother with anything other than maybe hand flamers on them. Mass strength 5 rending claws will absolutely shred anything and everything. For fast attack and heavy choices keep it to bikes and heavy weapon teams so there’s nothing to shoot any big guns at.
Guardsmen that can deepstrike and charge with like a 70% rate of success, are not bad as far as tarpits go. Especially when you factor in some of the buffs they may receive by virtue of deploying near your other characters who you are taking anyway.
1: What is the goliath for? I can not deside it's intended purpose, nor what gun to put on it.
The Rockgrinder is basically Tyranid Carnifex crossed with Dark Eldar Venom. Its job is to surge up the board and ram into units you don't want your ambushers to take overwatch from, possibly dropping off a squad + character on the way in (it really likes a Primus around). Ideal targets are multi-wound infantry, light vehicles, and structures if you ever chance encounter one.
I'd personally suggest equipping it with either the Clearance Incinerator or Heavy Seismic Cannon. Both guns mesh with the aggressive nature of the unit, with the first being the best gun in terms of quality and the second being the cheapest and most flexible. You could take the Heavy Mining Laser if you really were desperate for ranged anti-tank shots, but the Achillies is a more optimal chassis for the weapon.
I should also add that to get the most out of a Rockgrinder you really want to take the max allotment of 3 and an additional compliment of vehicles for threat saturation. Most of my index lists had 9 odd vehicles and some of the lists I'm working on now have upwards of 15. You have to expect some are going to die each turn, it is just a matter of overloading the amount of targets the foe "needs" to deal with and reacting accordingly to punish them for their target selection.
2: So much of our army crumbles to the slightest breese. Is it alpha strikes all the way?
Yes and no. You basically want to keep your important stuff off table in some way (mounted up or in the tunnels) and insure that they get to hit their targets first, but not necessarily by blowing everything off the table in the first round of the game.
Acolyte hybrids with weapons and genstealers seems like the best all rounders. Hybrid Metamrophs and Abberants seems specialised vs no armour saves and vs heavy tragets respectivly.
I think the Metamorphs aren't so much for clearing out low save targets as much as anti-infantry in general. Claw-morphs are for "heavy" infantry (T4/5 with a 4+ to 3+ save), Duel Talons for hordes, Whips for "always swings first" infantry (Slaanash, certain Tyranids), and the Talon + Rending Claw is for general use like the stock Acolyte but with an extra rending claw attack and a 2+ to hit Knife.
I am curious to get some table time with them. They still feel a bit pricy but are infinitely better than they were in the index.
5: What are good set ups for neophyte hybrids? What roles can they do?
I've always liked the 2x Grenade Launcher, 2x Seismic Cannon loadout. The two guns mirror each other fairly well so you get a higher volume of each strength shot. Squads with shotguns and no other upgrades have also worked well for me as well. Jumping to S4 at 6'' is a huge improvement over S3 and the added mobility from the assault type is useful for objective grabbing and screening.
Main roles for Neophytes are screen clearing, objective grabbing, charge screening, and occasionally tarpitting (usually so a dedicated melee unit can charge without needing to face overwatch).
Hammer Creeds: Four Armed Emperor: Does 7th edition-style ambush centric lists well and provides extra starting command points and the ability to shut down critical stratagems. They make an ideal ally since they bring a lot of useful things and a smaller detachment allows them to maximize their creed ability.
Pauper Princes:MSU-leaning creed that maximizes the damage potential of units while simultaneously punishing the opponent for killing units (the latter through their stratagem and relic). Warlord trait is really good for a Patriarch. Of the "hammer' oriented creeds, I think they are probably the best suited to running solo since their toolbox benefits the "anvil" units as well.
Twisted Helix Basically takes whatever hybrid melee unit you like and makes them better. Nothing really subtle about the creed. It does Aberrant deathstars better than any other cult due to their stratagem and the buffs granted by their trait. Also can make a very mean Patriarch with their relic and warlord trait.
Anvil Creeds: Hivecult: I think the stratagem and warlord trait is the most defining element of the Hivecult, since it allows mechanized lists to reach a very respectable accuracy against a key target while the creed ability allows neophytes to excel as screening units. Their relic is iffy, but realistically they are probably going to be wanting the Gift From Beyond sniper rifle more often than not to enable their stratagem. I don't think they are really suitable for use as allies, as their strategy is both very CP hungry and requires a very specific build (more like an AM list than traditional GSC).
Rusted Claw:Basically the same beta-strike playstyle of Hive Fleet Jormungandr from the Tyranids, but with bikers replacing tunnellers as the preferred mobile counter-punch unit. Jackals with the trait are more mobile (no penalty for their wolfquad heavies or sniper rifles, stratagem allows them to move->shoot-> move) and are relatively durable with their innate -1 and a 4+ save. Relic is of questionable use and the warlord trait is situational.
Bladed Cog Similar idea to Rusted Claw but with a 6+ invulnerable in place of improved armor save and neophyte heavy weapons being able to move and fire. The invulnerable makes it a better creed for melee units that otherwise have no means of improving their save and their stratagem further enhances the volume of attacks melee units are known for (extra attacks on a 6+ vs non-Imperials, 5+ vs Imperials, or a 4+ vs Admech). Relic also allows for a remarkably tough warlord with a 3+ invul (or a 4+ if Patriarch). Also probably the only subfaction in the game that can make good use of a Void Shield Generator for a 4+ invulnerable for units in range.
Badablack wrote: A 20-man blob of shotgun neophytes makes a great tarpit and source of protection and Unquestioning Loyalty saves for nearby characters.
And also don't cost additional points, and as such are worth being invested in. I'm talking about the heavy weapons and some of the special weapons. Don't throw 30pts worth of wargear onto Neophytes when they cost 50 for ten.
Badablack wrote: A 20-man blob of shotgun neophytes makes a great tarpit and source of protection and Unquestioning Loyalty saves for nearby characters.
And also don't cost additional points, and as such are worth being invested in. I'm talking about the heavy weapons and some of the special weapons. Don't throw 30pts worth of wargear onto Neophytes when they cost 50 for ten.
The end, folks. That's my point.
I get your point, but your acting as if the upgrades are not dirt cheap. A unit with 2 webbers and 2 heavy stubbers is only 6 additional points. You would be stupid not to upgrade them unless your really pinching points, and I mean really pinching.
OEMoose wrote: Yeah I don't think I'll be adding anything but webbers and stubbers for the Neophytes depending on what they are doing.
I would also think that Twisted Helix would be pretty good for a shotgun blob no? I mean you already want to get real close.
Depends on the FAQ. There is a discrepancy in the mining lasers damage between the appendix and the Atalan Jackals data slate. If the bog standard ML is in fact damage d6 that's pretty huge. Units dropping in and potentially hitting with two las canons on a 3+ with a Jackal Alphus nearby is solid. It would be the go to ATIMO.
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Cephalobeard wrote: Jesus, guys, come on. My literal example listed Webbers.
Me say me give cheap option
Me say no use expensive option
Because you hen get more body
This good
Less body bad
More body good
All win, happy shoot
Sorry, I just figured you had a different point since what you pointed out seems glaringly obvious.
He... Asked questions... I responded to his questions...
Are you attempting to imply I cannot reply to a question when someone directly asks for them, because the answer is "Glaringly obvious"? I had to explain further because people then misunderstood the assertion, even as you did by suggesting the cheap options I laid out in my original post, absent from my subsequent replies.
You're not typically one to be so condescending, so I'm going to go ahead and assume this commentary is out of the ordinary and not intentional.
Neophytes. Mine will be largely static, and deployed on ‘home’ Objectives.
15 strong with Rusted Claw creed gives them some decent resilience. 75 points bare bones.
At that point, it is tempting to give them special and heavy weapons, but I wouldn’t say it’s essential. Me, I’m taking two such squads just with Shotguns (I just like them), and one with Autoguns, two Grenade Launchers and 2 Mining Lasers. It’s not a great deal of points, and mostly there to use up residuals, and to be more of a nuisance. I just figure it’s cheap enough to be able to tickle pretty much any unit in the game.
I disagree with the "no heavy weapons on Neophytes" thing. Will definitely try Mining lasers on them. They are the only worthwile AT shooting in the army and are not really expensive. Also you can make them hit on 3+ with the Alphus.
Astmeister wrote: I disagree with the "no heavy weapons on Neophytes" thing. Will definitely try Mining lasers on them. They are the only worthwile AT shooting in the army and are not really expensive. Also you can make them hit on 3+ with the Alphus.
Agree. Neophytes are already quite cheap so giving few high str weapons does not harm you but does harm enemies.
Astmeister wrote: How good is the idea of using a mass infantry army with twisted helix advancing up the field? They have +1 S and also +2 advance, which could make them pretty interesting for this.
I've been thinking about this since the codex came out. Orkish style.
The problem with ambush it's not just failing the charge. If you have a lot of units in reserves, and the opponent has mobility, can deny areas easy the first turn.
40 acolytes in reserves with heavy weapons for perfect ambush turn 2-3, and some points for summon first turn.
everything else acolytes on the table. (150+ acolytes its possible)
With clamavus, and twisted helix you have +3 to advance, so the second turn you are with everything in combat, and you can possibly charge with one unit the first turn too (psychic stimulus).
If you dont have enough acolytes, neophytes with shotguns would not be bad either
I'm planning on mass brood brother infantry squads with orders to start on the board, and go full chaff clearance turn 1. I'd worry a bit about losing 7pt models by the bucketload. In general orks aren't just doing mass 7pt Boyz these days as each loss is pretty painful...
BBAP wrote: How many models is a good number of models nowadays? IIRC I managed 130-odd in an 1850 list in 7th, is thast still the standard to aim for?
Speaking as an Imperial Guard player turned cult, If you are going pure infantry horde then you really want to be aiming for 150 dudes minimum.
BBAP wrote: How many models is a good number of models nowadays? IIRC I managed 130-odd in an 1850 list in 7th, is thast still the standard to aim for?
Iirc my list is around 160~ ish models as pure GSC.
Next question: are Brigades worth the hassle? I've got a 1500pt Brigade list in mind that'd top out at 128 models, but I'm really not happy with the mandatory HS and FA slots because the bikers and HWTs feel like dreck. Should I just throw some Mortars and Knife/ Shotguns on the dudes to keep them cheap and have done with it, or is it worth trying to retool for a 2-3 Battalion setup?
Don't do Brigade just for the CPs. That goes for any army.
If you're taking stuff you're not keen on (or don't really have a role for in your battle plan), then you're going after the wrong thing.
Better to consider other approaches, and see if you can retool for other selections.
But once again, make sure you've got a firm idea of how you want the collective army to perform on the board. Are you into WRECKING FACE? Plan around that. If like me you're into wrecking face and some sneaky shenanigans? Plan around that instead.
Just don't rack up CPs for the sake of racking up CPs.
The difference between a brigade and a "I was taking these anyway" is often barely more than 1-200pts. I've found a brigade to be essential for all of my lists, however, I've been not adding Nids.
I expect this FAQ to be around 4 pages long. Before we really talk about a list, it needs to come out because that is going to create a bunch of forks in the road with builds.
- My first thought is the Patriarch needed in the army?
- How can Jackals be armed and bought
- Brood brothers.... 10 or 20
Patriarch is most definitely not a compulsory addition. An attractive one, sure (combines best bit of a Magus with the best bit of an Abominant), but not one I feel is an absolute must have.
Jackals? Well, as per the Codex really.
Brood Brothers? Dunno, I'm not using them, so haven't given them any thought.
Probably a Wolfquad with Heavy Stubber would be better as ablative wounds, but I feel like I want to be able to ping off the last couple of wounds from a crippled vehicle after demo charges.
Personally I'm still trying to find a reason to take Genestealers in a Genestealer Cult army.
1. 3 points More expensive than "Tyranid" Genestealers.
2. No Cult Creed/Hive Fleet "Chapter Tactics".
3. Can be transported in Goliaths/Rockgrinders.
4. Cult Ambush and/or Underground.
And what is the deal with the stats?
* Patriarch has a BS / Brood Lord does not
* Tyranid Genestealers have a BS / Purestrains does not
I'm not really upset about it and the only benefit I could see for Purestrains to have a BS is the highly unlikely occurance of when mounted on a Goliath with Blasting Charges. But still, some continuity please?
1: What is the goliath for? I can not deside it's intended purpose, nor what gun to put on it.
2: So much of our army crumbles to the slightest breese. Is it alpha strikes all the way?
3: Charging. How do you pull it off? We can do a perfect ambush turn 2 and 3. But what else outside of that`?
4: How do you deside of what to perfect ambush?
Acolyte hybrids with weapons and genstealers seems like the best all rounders. Hybrid Metamrophs and Abberants seems specialised vs no armour saves and vs heavy tragets respectivly.
5: What are good set ups for neophyte hybrids? What roles can they do?
6: What do the different cult creeds do well?
Well, I can tell you my own answers after my test game yesterday:
I ran a basic TAC list using mostly my old existing stuff (Proxied one Clamavus and one Jackal Alphus to test them out) against a watered-down version of the current imperial soup meta. My opponent had a knight crusader with the relic gatling gun, 4++ trait, loyal 32 but with straken and a priest in a valk with one squad, and a manticore added on, and then instead of the rest being guard he had the rest as Admech, with the new Servitor maniple formation and a skitarii screen.
1: By goliath I assume you mean rockgrinder. I ran mine with the clearance incinerator, and turn 1 when I revealed the blip I used "lying in wait" stratagem to make it appear on one flank of my opponent, threatening the manticore which was screened by only one infantry squad (most of the screens were in front of the big unit of servitors). It was full of an acolyte squad with demo charges and hand flamers, and it was meant as a distraction/threat piece. Since he ignored it to try and focus on the large bunch of shooting units clumped around the jackal alphus, it was able to flame out the infantry squad and charge the manticore after 2 turns, meaning the manticore only got to fire 2 of its missiles not on overwatch. It also should have mulched the enemy warlord, but he rolled supremely well on his invuln saves.
2: I did have some trouble making the parts of my list that weren't alpha strikes work. My opponent went first and took out 1 of my leman russes turn 1, leaving the jackal buffing only 1 goliath-borne squad of neophytes and 1 leman russ, which didn't do a whole lot against the knight. By contrast my two alpha strike squads (which were 20 acolytes and 5 aberrants) absolutely rocked socks, melting the knight with basically no trouble and tying up a ton of the enemy shooting units until I could get into position on basically every objective and win the game by 11 points turn 5. The one thing that did work super duper well starting on the board was my Patriarch. I gave him +2LD from clammy and the BRB leadership trait on a Magus, and he melted something worth more than his points with Mental Onslaught every single turn. First he nuked a valkyrie because my opponent did not realize I was not exaggerating when I told him how broken this power was vs vehicles, then he ate the guys inside including straken and the priest, then he mental onslaught'd a kastelan robot and an onager dunecrawler to close out the game. MO is 100% the single most broken direct damage power in the game, maybe even the most broken power in general.
3: Clamavus, Perfect Ambush, Cult of the Four-armed emperor. I used all three on my aberrants (there was a handy box I could hide them behind with the perfect ambush move, so I avoided overwatch from the knight). They made their 5" charge, shocker. My acolytes also had no trouble with their 7" charge with the clamavus + four-armed emp trait.
4: What needs to get dead. I'd always include 1 unit meant to whack vehicles, one to clear infantry. Perfect ambush what needs to get dead in your opponent's list.
5: I tried all four of our neophyte setups in my list: 1 squad in a goliath with lascannons and GL's, 1 squad in a goliath with Seismic cannons, 1 squad of 20 with shotguns and webbers, and 1 squad of 20 brood bros with lasguns. My favorite was the lascannons and GLs, who got huge buffs from the jackal alphus and did very nice reliable damage all game. Shotguns and webbers worked pretty well as a threat piece on a flank, killing enough skitarii to get my opponent's attention and he devoted his robots to killing them. wasn't impressed by the seismics, but they popped out of their transport turn 1 to help shoot up a squad of infantry I absolutely had to clear, and so they got wiped early. I am definitely going to give them another shot.
6: I ran Rusted Claw for my on the board stuff and four armed emp for my alpha strikers. Don't think I'll change that up much. I loved the armor save from rusted claw and running both neophytes and brood bros the difference was striking in their survivability.
So if I keep a measly 60points in reserve for Psychic Summons I am guaranteed a turn 1 Sanctus (using Perfect Ambush for 0 CPs, equipped as the situation warrants) or turn 1 Kellermorph coming down and disrupting characters turn 1? If I reserve 120 points to do it again I have even more flexibility and can pop-in a 20 model unit of Neophytes on turn 1 within rapid-fire range....geez, there's your screen clearing.
Can you imagine how annoyed and tilted your opponent will be by this? It's not Genestealers turn 1....but it's something.
Seems like a very powerful trick for very few points and very few moving parts. No psychic roll required...
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Patriarch is most definitely not a compulsory addition. An attractive one, sure (combines best bit of a Magus with the best bit of an Abominant), but not one I feel is an absolute must have.
Jackals? Well, as per the Codex really.
Brood Brothers? Dunno, I'm not using them, so haven't given them any thought.
I think that unless you go pauper prince which can provide you with a fearless aura, it is gonna be tough against a good opponent who will kill half your squads and leave moral kill the rest
Caspian89 wrote: So if I keep a measly 60points in reserve for Psychic Summons I am guaranteed a turn 1 Sanctus (using Perfect Ambush for 0 CPs, equipped as the situation warrants) or turn 1 Kellermorph coming down and disrupting characters turn 1? If I reserve 120 points to do it again I have even more flexibility and can pop-in a 20 model unit of Neophytes on turn 1 within rapid-fire range....geez, there's your screen clearing.
Can you imagine how annoyed and tilted your opponent will be by this? It's not Genestealers turn 1....but it's something.
Seems like a very powerful trick for very few points and very few moving parts. No psychic roll required...
Perfect ambush is in movement phase. Summon is in psy. phase.
Perfect ambush is in movement phase. Summon is in psy. phase.
Thank-you, missed that! Still works nicely with a cheeky Kellermorph on turn 1 or having a sniper Sanctus vs. Psycher heavy armies in your back-pocket (hopefully not literally). Getting those Neophytes into rapidfire vs. an appropriate target turn 1 also seems worth it. If I go to a tournament it's nice to have a little bit of tailoring possible to suit certain opponents. My sideboard if you will.
1: By goliath I assume you mean rockgrinder. I ran mine with the clearance incinerator, and turn 1 when I revealed the blip I used "lying in wait" stratagem to make it appear on one flank of my opponent, threatening the manticore which was screened by only one infantry squad (most of the screens were in front of the big unit of servitors). It was full of an acolyte squad with demo charges and hand flamers, and it was meant as a distraction/threat piece. Since he ignored it to try and focus on the large bunch of shooting units clumped around the jackal alphus, it was able to flame out the infantry squad and charge the manticore after 2 turns, meaning the manticore only got to fire 2 of its missiles not on overwatch. It also should have mulched the enemy warlord, but he rolled supremely well on his invuln saves.
If lying in wait is really working with a rockgrinder, I assume it will get FAQed immediately.
1: By goliath I assume you mean rockgrinder. I ran mine with the clearance incinerator, and turn 1 when I revealed the blip I used "lying in wait" stratagem to make it appear on one flank of my opponent, threatening the manticore which was screened by only one infantry squad (most of the screens were in front of the big unit of servitors). It was full of an acolyte squad with demo charges and hand flamers, and it was meant as a distraction/threat piece. Since he ignored it to try and focus on the large bunch of shooting units clumped around the jackal alphus, it was able to flame out the infantry squad and charge the manticore after 2 turns, meaning the manticore only got to fire 2 of its missiles not on overwatch. It also should have mulched the enemy warlord, but he rolled supremely well on his invuln saves.
If lying in wait is really working with a rockgrinder, I assume it will get FAQed immediately.
It doesn’t. You can only use “Lying in Wait” with units that are coming in as reinforcements. Vehicles have to come on as blips.
Probably a Wolfquad with Heavy Stubber would be better as ablative wounds, but I feel like I want to be able to ping off the last couple of wounds from a crippled vehicle after demo charges.
I recently discovered that you can only purchase Atalan Jackals in units of 4, 8, or 12 bikes (with 1, 2, or 3 Wolfquads added). Check out the language used on the data sheet.
I'm pretty sure that's using Power Rating. If you're using points, you should be able to take any number from 4-12, plus a quad for every four.
As far as the brigade discussion, I'm looking at maybe taking a brigade myself. Used HWT w/ mortars for the HS and Atalans (and maybe a Ridgerunner) for the FA. Haven't really pointed it out fully. I'm also trying to figure out if the Unquestioningly Loyal 32 is a viable CP farm. Three codex BB squads with probably two Iconwards would be the cheapest option, and since it's still a GSC detachement, you'd get the full CP. Seems fluffy for a Hive Cult army, too.
I've ended up nixing the Brigade. Having HWTs taking up points in a Twisted Helix detachment seems inefficient, and I'm not really convinced GSC would benefit from any kind of firebase let alone a crap one. You get more CP and more Cult Traits using multi-Battalions, so to me that seems like the best idea.
EnTyme wrote: I'm pretty sure that's using Power Rating. If you're using points, you should be able to take any number from 4-12, plus a quad for every four.
I would have to politely disagree, compare it with the language on the Purestrains data sheet.
EnTyme wrote: I'm pretty sure that's using Power Rating. If you're using points, you should be able to take any number from 4-12, plus a quad for every four.
I would have to politely disagree, compare it with the language on the Purestrains data sheet.
This would mean that they work differently than every other unit in the game, and I just don't believe that's the case. The points page give a per-model cost, not a per-4 cost. I'm sure it'll be clarified in the FAQ.
Lord Clinto wrote: Personally I'm still trying to find a reason to take Genestealers in a Genestealer Cult army.
1. 3 points More expensive than "Tyranid" Genestealers.
2. No Cult Creed/Hive Fleet "Chapter Tactics".
3. Can be transported in Goliaths/Rockgrinders.
4. Cult Ambush and/or Underground.
And what is the deal with the stats?
* Patriarch has a BS / Brood Lord does not
* Tyranid Genestealers have a BS / Purestrains does not
I'm not really upset about it and the only benefit I could see for Purestrains to have a BS is the highly unlikely occurance of when mounted on a Goliath with Blasting Charges. But still, some continuity please?
I also just noticed that the Patriarch doesn’t come with Unquestioning Loyalty. So no “Look out Sir!” for him. I really hope that gets FAQed, for fluff alone.
Read the "Ambush Markers" rule in the codex in full, in particular the section where it says "Note that although these units are arriving as Reinforcements"
Unless it is FAQed, revealing a unit as a blip is arriving as Reinforcements and you may use Lying in Wait.
the_scotsman wrote: Read the "Ambush Markers" rule in the codex in full, in particular the section where it says "Note that although these units are arriving as Reinforcements"
Unless it is FAQed, revealing a unit as a blip is arriving as Reinforcements and you may use Lying in Wait.
Wow, that's huge if what you say is correct. "Underground" Leman Russ' appearing anywhere...
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Zimko wrote: That's because the Patriarch isn't the one jumping in front of bullets. Other units can protect him just fine.
And...notice all other GSC characters have Unquestioning Loyalty. Which means you can use characters to soak wounds on other characters...assuming you would rather lose a Nexos than your Patriarch or what have you.
the_scotsman wrote: Read the "Ambush Markers" rule in the codex in full, in particular the section where it says "Note that although these units are arriving as Reinforcements"
Unless it is FAQed, revealing a unit as a blip is arriving as Reinforcements and you may use Lying in Wait.
Wow, that's huge if what you say is correct. "Underground" Leman Russ' appearing anywhere...
still dont think you can get out of your deployment zone turn 1 with this, so you would spend 2 cp to deploy somewhere else in your deployment zone.
Cephalobeard wrote: He... Asked questions... I responded to his questions...
Are you attempting to imply I cannot reply to a question when someone directly asks for them, because the answer is "Glaringly obvious"? I had to explain further because people then misunderstood the assertion, even as you did by suggesting the cheap options I laid out in my original post, absent from my subsequent replies.
You're not typically one to be so condescending, so I'm going to go ahead and assume this commentary is out of the ordinary and not intentional.
Yea I definitely wasn't being condescending, or at least trying to be, I can see how it read that way though. I think folks misunderstood you initially because you made a broad statement, without pointing out the exceptions, so it seemed like you were being cut and dry about your assertion. So others pointed out those and you assumed those points were obvious, so it just seemed odd to me. I initially thought you had a deeper counter point, which isn't me trying to blast you, it's more me respecting your insight and expecting there to be a bit more. So, no hard feeling bud, sorry I rubbed you wrong. I am a blunt, but very comical in person, online that doesn't translate sometimes.
Astmeister wrote: I disagree with the "no heavy weapons on Neophytes" thing. Will definitely try Mining lasers on them. They are the only worthwile AT shooting in the army and are not really expensive. Also you can make them hit on 3+ with the Alphus.
Agree. Neophytes are already quite cheap so giving few high str weapons does not harm you but does harm enemies.
I am coming full circle and starting to think the best lists will be mostly neophytes and brood bros. I love our assault elements, but this book didn't actually fix the problems with ambush. The major issue being arriving turn 2. Summoning is the only reach around... er, back ally... lol you get what i mean
Neophytes can easily be boosted to BS 3+ and backed by kellermorphs can reroll 1's as well when facing horde. BTW the kellermorph is just insane when played with neophytes. I am working on converting my 3rd. You could potentially summon a few more as well. They don't synergize with acolytes as well because you don't want to shoot a unit you are charging.
the_scotsman wrote: Read the "Ambush Markers" rule in the codex in full, in particular the section where it says "Note that although these units are arriving as Reinforcements"
Unless it is FAQed, revealing a unit as a blip is arriving as Reinforcements and you may use Lying in Wait.
Wow, that's huge if what you say is correct. "Underground" Leman Russ' appearing anywhere...
still dont think you can get out of your deployment zone turn 1 with this, so you would spend 2 cp to deploy somewhere else in your deployment zone.
The rules as they are written on Lying in Wait supersede the usual rules for arriving via reserves. Otherwise, if you used it on a unit arriving from Underground, you could not deploy within 9"...
I agree it's probably unintentional. It also may be FAQed. But there is so much in this codex that I can't believe would be intentional that this is honestly the least of my concerns...
Astmeister wrote: How good is the idea of using a mass infantry army with twisted helix advancing up the field? They have +1 S and also +2 advance, which could make them pretty interesting for this.
I've been thinking about this since the codex came out. Orkish style.
The problem with ambush it's not just failing the charge. If you have a lot of units in reserves, and the opponent has mobility, can deny areas easy the first turn.
40 acolytes in reserves with heavy weapons for perfect ambush turn 2-3, and some points for summon first turn.
everything else acolytes on the table. (150+ acolytes its possible)
With clamavus, and twisted helix you have +3 to advance, so the second turn you are with everything in combat, and you can possibly charge with one unit the first turn too (psychic stimulus).
If you dont have enough acolytes, neophytes with shotguns would not be bad either
You don't want a horde of acolytes on the table though, they are too easily screened and have no ranged threat. As a thought experiment try beating an equal amount of points spent on neophytes and brood bros with your horde of acolytes. They will rinse you with fire from range and just create an onion formation so your only every over killing the outside wrap. Acolytes are good, but you want to make sure you don't go overboard with them either.
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Caspian89 wrote: So if I keep a measly 60points in reserve for Psychic Summons I am guaranteed a turn 1 Sanctus (using Perfect Ambush for 0 CPs, equipped as the situation warrants) or turn 1 Kellermorph coming down and disrupting characters turn 1? If I reserve 120 points to do it again I have even more flexibility and can pop-in a 20 model unit of Neophytes on turn 1 within rapid-fire range....geez, there's your screen clearing.
Can you imagine how annoyed and tilted your opponent will be by this? It's not Genestealers turn 1....but it's something.
Seems like a very powerful trick for very few points and very few moving parts. No psychic roll required...
Perfect ambush is used in the movement phase, so you cannot use it on a summoned unit. You can use lying in wait, but against a prepared opponent your odds of getting a character are lower. As far as screen clearance, don't get ahead of yourself. I used a 15 acolyte hand flamer unit on a loyal 32 and it didn't do much. Between prepared positions and take cover on the nearest unit you won't kill as much as your hoping. Same would apply to neophytes. The real value on that maneuver is hedging their movement turn 1, and less about killing them all.
1: By goliath I assume you mean rockgrinder. I ran mine with the clearance incinerator, and turn 1 when I revealed the blip I used "lying in wait" stratagem to make it appear on one flank of my opponent, threatening the manticore which was screened by only one infantry squad (most of the screens were in front of the big unit of servitors). It was full of an acolyte squad with demo charges and hand flamers, and it was meant as a distraction/threat piece. Since he ignored it to try and focus on the large bunch of shooting units clumped around the jackal alphus, it was able to flame out the infantry squad and charge the manticore after 2 turns, meaning the manticore only got to fire 2 of its missiles not on overwatch. It also should have mulched the enemy warlord, but he rolled supremely well on his invuln saves.
If lying in wait is really working with a rockgrinder, I assume it will get FAQed immediately.
Lying in wait doesn't specify unit type but it does require the unit to be reinforcements. This way of playing is kind of having it best of both ways. We know GW has said blips aren't counted as reinforcements and thusly you can deploy everything as blips counters, that tells me you can't use lying in wait on them. So even as of now I disagree with playing them that way and as soon as GW officially clarifies blips as not being reinforcements it is surely dead.
Speaking of perfect ambush, for a shooty list it seems like the perfect thing to use on a kelermorph. Drop him in with Perfect ambush, use Lying in Wait on a demolition acolyte squad, then shred something with a double shooting kelermorph and give a million rerollable grenades to the acolytes.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: You can, sort of, after a fashion, Perfecf Ambush once you’ve summoned something. We have a psychic power that does much the same thing.
Not ideal overall as we need to cast it first, but good enough to be factored in. Can be a nasty surprise when your opponent thinks you’re out of CPs.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Okay...let’s get serial when it comes to filth. Not just filth, but filthy filth.
See, so far I’ve been focusing on a single creed (Rusted Claw, as it happens). But then I got pondering. And when I ponder, I stroke my beard (you may not. Admire it by all means, but no touchy). And when I stroke my beard, ideas come to me.
Because in my prototype 1,000 point list, I think I can rejig things very slightly to include a Vanguard Detachment. Not only does that open up the potential for a second Creed benefit, but adds a further CP (luvverly), UNT a second set of those filthy, dirty elites we love and our opponents hate...the Kelermorph and Sanctus. All without harshing the necessaries for my Batallion.
What other nasty gubbins might we be able to do at effectively no cost?
Automatically Appended Next Post: You know......sometimes I disgust myself.
Vanguard Detachments for the extra CP and tasty Creeds....
Mine will be a relatively piffling 230 points, and consist of....
Jackal Alphus
Kelermorph
Sanctus with Sniper Rifle
Locus (because he’s dead, dead cheap, rather than actually useful).
In Matched Play, that can mean three Kelermorph, three Sanctus and three Jackal Alphus.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Jackal Alphus
Kelermorph
Sanctus with Sniper Rifle
Locus (because he’s dead, dead cheap, rather than actually useful).
In Matched Play, that can mean three Kelermorph, three Sanctus and three Jackal Alphus.
No. Character. Will. Be. Safe.
I think anything T4 or above and/ or with a 3+ save probably will be.
Honestly, I'm really not digging these new character-killer dudes at all, and there's nothing in 40k worse than sniper models with single shot weapons. 20 Acolytes will snipe out Characters just fine for roughly the same money.
It’s about control of the board. With so many competent Snipers knocking around, enemy character will not be safe. And because I’m fielding multiple, I don’t need to worry about one shot kills, because it will never need be a one shot affair.
Sanctus particularly appeals, because he can detonate Psykers, with the potential for further Mortal Wounds.
Yeah, if he hits. He only gets 5/6 chances to do that in a game. Trust me, no matter what damage they have the potential to do, single-shot weapons always flatter to deceive in 40k.
Can't go wrong with 30+ Rending Claw attacks, though.
In reality, I’m likely to only double up on the Assassin types, as that should prove plenty enough to ensure enemy characters are effectively corralled. And it spells a pretty short game for Slamguinous, on account he will be full of holes the second he shows his pretty face. And that’s just the Kelermorph and Sanctus.
Alphus will likely be running about the flanks, looking to potshot backfield characters.
In my mind, the Alphus' benefit is her buff aura. Any damage she actually does is just gravy. Her attack profile is only a secondary concern when deciding whether or not to take the model. Personally, I plan to take her just because the model looks cool.
So, a potentially useful combo given that one of the things we will probably struggle with is maintaining board presence T1 before our reserves arrive.
10x FAE Aberrants deployed in a Goliath (cos for some reason they only count as one)
If you are playing CA18 missions then you will know who gets to pick who goes first. If your opponent gets to pick, then you probably want to either deploy the Abs in ambush, or in the Goliath hidden/far back. You can still unload the Abbys first turn and RTTS if need be.
However, if you get to pick who goes first, then you can whack that Goliath front and centre and hope your opponent doesn't seize. Because first turn you disembark for 3", pop Perfect Ambush for D6" (you just set them up on the board) move 6" + D6" advance + 1" for FAE. So a total of 12-22", bearing in mind you have CP rerolls to account for some of the randomness. That's Kraken stealer levels of quick. Then you use the Crouchling to cast Psychic Stimulus, and get +1" on the charge again thanks to FAE, so can quite easily reach out and hit the enemy's front line. Which is probably a reasonable surprise! If you can get an Abb unit into combat first turn, even if just clearing screens (and especially if you can hostage something) you are well on your way to maintaining board control for your ambushers.
If you don't use the Goliath for Abs, you're probably running Deliverance Broodsurge so at least have those shenanigans to pull with rapidly relocating Neos and Acos.
Anyone tried allied carnifex? As several folks have mentioned two of our struggles are board presence that isn't fragile, and clearing screens. The dakkafex is a damn good value and very self sufficient. I just ordered 3.
Built in -1 to shoot at.
3+ to hit with assault weapons so they don't get -1 to hit when moving.
Option for mass, anti armor, or both.
2+ save with jorg.
Maybe I'm too in love with them, but 3 dakkafexes and a neurothrope seems just perfect for rounding out a cult army. All for only about 440 points.
They are really good, the heavy venom canon and talons is the best way to load them out normally. A guy ran 11 carnefexes and old one eye at a local event not too long ago and he did well.
1: The Goloath Rockgrinder reminds me of a hybrid carnifex. It has some shooting, it has some melee, it is not particularly good at neither.
It does not need synapse. It has S9 thanks to the doseblade, an aria where the carnifexes are very lacking. Undamaged it also totals 6 attacks + the doser blade. I think it is promaraly a melee unit.
In other armies the dreadnought has traditionally been used as a well rounded independed operator. Or as a counter charge unit. The carnifexes lend nids cheap ranged attacks or big melee threaths. The goliath can not copy the ranged potensial of the dakkafex or the heavy venom cannon. Nids in general has a big problem getting high S melee attacks as they have no power fists, instead rellying on massed genstealer rending attacks. GSC does not have a problem as they have the mining toosl.
I have no idea on what to put in them. Very few of our models have a high threath potensial outside of large numbers. The Goliath remonds me of the ork transport with the deathrollar. Very dangerus to meet in close combat. And when you kill it orks jump out and charge you. We could try to copy this pattern.
Can have potensial in a hyrbid nid-zilla list.
2. Aberant reminds me of old one eye for the nids. I ran mass warrior in nids, and old one eye was very important. Providing high S attacks from a character that can not be shot it thanks to the character rule. Give him twisted helix and the twisted helix relic and you end up with S8 x2 attacks. Harming T8 on +2, asuiming you hit with your 4 attacks hitting on 4+. (4th attack comes from relic.)
Can be a good nice treath behind your infantery lines.
3: Sanctus is good at killing psykers, but not T1 on the play. It is hard to find a psyker outside of transport if within 36" or your deployment zone.
He can come in from ambush turn 2 with the sniper rifle. Have 1 CP ready for re-roll and have a good chance of making the shot. The relic rifle is a must.
4. The bladed kog. No penalty to moving and shooting for infantery. Good for mining lasers. Can be combined with a perfect ambush to double tap 2 mining lasers when they come in. First one shot, and then again in the shooting phase. Also works well with the sanctus sniper rifle.
6+++ is almost the same as +1 to the save from rusted claw. The +1 save is better the better the armour save is, but since we rarly get more then 5+ it rarly is that big a difference. I would say bladed claw is on the same level as rusted claw if you can utelise enough heavy weapons on the move.
5. How good are twisted helix? Jumping from S3 to S4 is always good, but jumping from S4 to S5 is only good against T4, and T8.
Works very well with x2 mining tools. S10 hurt T8 on 3+ instead of 4+.
The previusly mentioned abberant S8 means he can hurt T8 on 2+.
Mass accolyte hybrids can get S4 that makes then good vs all targets, if they ever reach melee.
6. On paper I really like mortar teams for removing chaff and preventing deep strike shenanigangs. I am often playing against orks with da jump, and the threath of turn 1 30 boyz charging is to dangerush.
7. The improviced heavy weapon on the abberant groupleader is better then the power hammer. He pumps out 6 attacks hitting on 3+.
8. A brigade is tempting but the weakpoints are all 6 troops and the fast attack slot.
Red Corsair wrote: They are really good, the heavy venom canon and talons is the best way to load them out normally. A guy ran 11 carnefexes and old one eye at a local event not too long ago and he did well.
I'm not sold on this being the best way to add 'fexes into a GSC army. With mass 'fexes HVC+talons is solid, but a lot of that value comes from simply having so many of them on the board. I think in a splash list pure dakkafexes are better. 3 'fexes with double devourer put out a lot of shots that are effective at clearing screens/killing light infantry, and they are reasonably durable for the cost. I agree that the +1 shooting, Jorg. and -1 to hit upgrades are the way to go. With the price changes from CA, shooty 'nid builds are cheap enough to be worth looking at. A battalion with a pair of Neurothropes, 3x Rippers and 6x dakkafexes is just under 1000 points. It brings CP, a -1 LD power, and screen clearing while lacking screens in ability to kill Knights in CC. Now I just have to think of a faction that can reliably deal with centerpiece units like Knights, provide screens, and likes leadership reduction.
Red Corsair wrote: They are really good, the heavy venom canon and talons is the best way to load them out normally. A guy ran 11 carnefexes and old one eye at a local event not too long ago and he did well.
I'm not sold on this being the best way to add 'fexes into a GSC army. With mass 'fexes HVC+talons is solid, but a lot of that value comes from simply having so many of them on the board. I think in a splash list pure dakkafexes are better. 3 'fexes with double devourer put out a lot of shots that are effective at clearing screens/killing light infantry, and they are reasonably durable for the cost. I agree that the +1 shooting, Jorg. and -1 to hit upgrades are the way to go. With the price changes from CA, shooty 'nid builds are cheap enough to be worth looking at. A battalion with a pair of Neurothropes, 3x Rippers and 6x dakkafexes is just under 1000 points. It brings CP, a -1 LD power, and screen clearing while lacking screens in ability to kill Knights in CC. Now I just have to think of a faction that can reliably deal with centerpiece units like Knights, provide screens, and likes leadership reduction.
Yup. Strong disagree with Red Corsair on this one, no way is claws + Cannon the ideal load out. Dakkafexes in either Kraken or Jorm are the way to go. 6 of them is awesome. Make sure they have Maces.
How would you deck out the GSC half in your opinion, Babel?
2. Aberant reminds me of old one eye for the nids. I ran mass warrior in nids, and old one eye was very important. Providing high S attacks from a character that can not be shot it thanks to the character rule. Give him twisted helix and the twisted helix relic and you end up with S8 x2 attacks. Harming T8 on +2, asuiming you hit with your 4 attacks hitting on 4+. (4th attack comes from relic.)
You mean the abominant, right? I see no reason to run him. You can make a better pumped up patriarch or stick with rock saws acolytes. If you bought the damn thing and really want to use it, thats fine because it's not useless but there are better options.
6+++ is almost the same as +1 to the save from rusted claw. The +1 save is better the better the armour save is, but since we rarly get more then 5+ it rarly is that big a difference. I would say bladed claw is on the same level as rusted claw if you can utelise enough heavy weapons on the move.
What? Do you only play against AP2 weapons? It's a 6+ inv save not an extra 'feel no pain' save. This makes no sense.
6. On paper I really like mortar teams for removing chaff and preventing deep strike shenanigangs. I am often playing against orks with da jump, and the threath of turn 1 30 boyz charging is to dangerush.
How do mortar teams prevent deep strike shenanigans?
8. A brigade is tempting but the weakpoints are all 6 troops and the fast attack slot.
Troops are not a GSC weakpoint. A brigades weakpoint consists of adding units that are 'nice' on their own but don't really create synergy within the army and get outperformed by enemy units. 3 elites, 3 fast attack and 3 heavies starting to add up in points.
Red Corsair wrote: They are really good, the heavy venom canon and talons is the best way to load them out normally. A guy ran 11 carnefexes and old one eye at a local event not too long ago and he did well.
I'm not sold on this being the best way to add 'fexes into a GSC army. With mass 'fexes HVC+talons is solid, but a lot of that value comes from simply having so many of them on the board. I think in a splash list pure dakkafexes are better. 3 'fexes with double devourer put out a lot of shots that are effective at clearing screens/killing light infantry, and they are reasonably durable for the cost. I agree that the +1 shooting, Jorg. and -1 to hit upgrades are the way to go. With the price changes from CA, shooty 'nid builds are cheap enough to be worth looking at. A battalion with a pair of Neurothropes, 3x Rippers and 6x dakkafexes is just under 1000 points. It brings CP, a -1 LD power, and screen clearing while lacking screens in ability to kill Knights in CC. Now I just have to think of a faction that can reliably deal with centerpiece units like Knights, provide screens, and likes leadership reduction.
Yup. Strong disagree with Red Corsair on this one, no way is claws + Cannon the ideal load out. Dakkafexes in either Kraken or Jorm are the way to go. 6 of them is awesome. Make sure they have Maces.
How would you deck out the GSC half in your opinion, Babel?
So this is what I came up with, based on the models I have possession of today.
Jorg. Battalion:
Neurothrope x 2
3 Rippers x 3
6 Impaler Hive Guard x 2
2 Carnifex (bone mace, enhanced senses, spore cysts, 2x twin devourers) x 2
List has about 20 points to play around with. I don't have any other GSC models to spend them on, so I think it will be either blasting charges for everybody or a few extra Rippers.
General plan is to shoot things with the shooty units and charge with the saw Hybrids, while using the Rippers and min Hybrids to screen/grab objectives. Relic rifle and Amulet of the Voidwyrm on the Patriarch. Biomorph Adaption (+1A and +1S) WL trait for the Patriarch, then Broodcoven to give the Primus increased aura range and the Magus Inscrutable Cunning for the +d3 CP.
I think as I get more models I'll drop the Hive Guard for two more Carnifexes, and look to add in a Clamavus. That's about 1700 points.
The other version of it I am considering drops the Hive Guard and the Neurothropes and replaces them with 40 Genestealers, a Malenthrope, and a Broodlord. I think that build swaps out for Kraken: the extra speed is worth losing the +1 Sv on the fexes. That build looks like such:
4 Armed Emperor Battalion
Magus (Inscrutable Cunning, Might from Beyond, Mind Control)
Patriarch (Amulet of the Voidwyrm, Biomorph Adaption, Mental Onslaught, Might from Beyond)
Primus (Alien Majesty)
5 Acolyte Hybrid (pistols)
5 Acolyte Hybrid (pistols)
20 Acolyte Hybrid (pistols, Banner, 4 saws)
Clamavus
Kelermorph
Nexos
Sanctus (The Gift From Beyond)
In general I like Twisted Helix better for this sort of ambush focused build, but I think Vect is too important to give up. A Neurothrope + 3 Venomthropes is more expensive than the Malanthrope. I don't really like the idea of leaving the Genestealers unprotected. Even being Kraken, without a Swarmlord they are going to eat at least one turn of shooting. I like the relic rifle on the Sanctus a great deal, because of how it threatens mid level casters. The mortal wound triggering off the wound roll instead of off unsaved wounds means that with the relic he has a 41% chance of dealing at least 2 mortals to a Psyker each time he shoots. Double shooting him for free on the first turn using Cult Ambush nets is 66% to get at least 2 mortals and a 33% to get at least 4 mortals. There are a lot of targets in the game that don't like that at all, including, ironically, the Magus, Broodlord, and Patriarch. Running him and a Alpha in a Vanguard (plus the Kelermorph and the Lotus) lets him take advantage of the +1 from the Alpha, but costs me a Carnifex. The Lotus has some utility trying to buff Might From Beyond, but I think the trap in GSC is getting too fancy with the tricks and not bringing enough power to the table.
On the gripping hand, a dakkaFex Spearhead with 4 'fexes is 560 points and one with 6 'fexes and a pair of Neuro's is 880. 6 dakkaFexes is a lot of shooting, and the Neuro's wander around smiting and casting the Horror at things that need Mental Onslaughted. That leaves 1100 points to put together an ambush heavy GSC list that can clear Knights and screen away Orks. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a way to do that and somehow get the warlord trait+vect from C4AE and still have the majority of the heavies in Twisted Helix. Double Magus perhaps, with one in a C4AE Vanguard to be Broodcovened and grab up the warlord trait. You still want one in the Helix detachment so you can Mental Onslaught with the LD 10 Patriarch and still cast Might from Beyond on your punchy unit (Aberants/Saw Morphs) without having to burn a familiar.
I'd sooner have an equivalent points-worth of Acolytres of Neophytes myself, but I suppose single shots cease to be single if you're running three of them. Having some character-killers might be a more efficient way of dealing with Smashfuckers than drowning them in Fearless Neophytes, I suppose.
Red Corsair wrote: They are really good, the heavy venom canon and talons is the best way to load them out normally. A guy ran 11 carnefexes and old one eye at a local event not too long ago and he did well.
I'm not sold on this being the best way to add 'fexes into a GSC army. With mass 'fexes HVC+talons is solid, but a lot of that value comes from simply having so many of them on the board. I think in a splash list pure dakkafexes are better. 3 'fexes with double devourer put out a lot of shots that are effective at clearing screens/killing light infantry, and they are reasonably durable for the cost. I agree that the +1 shooting, Jorg. and -1 to hit upgrades are the way to go. With the price changes from CA, shooty 'nid builds are cheap enough to be worth looking at. A battalion with a pair of Neurothropes, 3x Rippers and 6x dakkafexes is just under 1000 points. It brings CP, a -1 LD power, and screen clearing while lacking screens in ability to kill Knights in CC. Now I just have to think of a faction that can reliably deal with centerpiece units like Knights, provide screens, and likes leadership reduction.
Yup. Strong disagree with Red Corsair on this one, no way is claws + Cannon the ideal load out. Dakkafexes in either Kraken or Jorm are the way to go. 6 of them is awesome. Make sure they have Maces.
How would you deck out the GSC half in your opinion, Babel?
I was just basing this off performance in my local events. Jormagander Fexes are -1 to hit and have a 2+ save if they don't advance and the HVC is an insanely good weapon. I just don't like twin devourers in 8th. The range 18" kills them for me as a good screen removal first turn. With a tail weapon and twin guns they are not a great threat in melee either. Your opponent will put his screen 1.1" from his DZ line and you are forced to advance, there goes your save bonus and your BS takes a hit. With prepared positions and take cover you will kill 3 guardsmen for 117 pts. Without take cover it's 6 GEQ. Think about rusted claw neophytes lol, every one would have a 3+ turn 1. The best solutions we have for screen removal IMO are T1 melee since it gets around all the silly save buffs.
All that said I don't think dakka fexes are awful by any means, I just doin't see much added value to GSC. We already mulch infantry, the only issue we have currently is killing enough turn 1. If I am already into a nid detachment I'll just use genestealers. It's basically 2 dakkafexes = 20 stealers.
Astmeister wrote: So kraken genestealers with swarmlord for t1 screen clearing?
I'm toying with ways to just use our stuff. Summoning in a 20 strong acolyte blob has merit. You need a transport to assist in getting a clamavus closer but your looknig at a 7" charge with 4AE. You can also use psychic stimulus on a unit that hops out from a truck in your deployment T1 with a clamavus to assist. The broodsurge strat to deploy after a truck moves 12" again decent and can get you an icon ward to reroll charges and up field T1. Our purestrains hoping out a truck are also fairly decent (4" deployment+ 8" +d6+1" near clam then a 2d6+1" charge). Max sized Jackals next to a ridgerunner with psychic stim is also very fast out the gate. If you horror and mass hypnotize a couple targets they would be -2 to hit, might be a usful tarpit for cheap. None of it is consistent as the Kraken stealers for sure. Of course that requires swarmy whose solid but not cheap.
I am starting to think guard are our best answer. Hellhounds are dirt cheap and do work. They are also mortal wound bombs. The fact that they want to jut forward turn 1 really helps occupy table as well which obviously helps us.
I am waiting on the FAQ though. Because if BB can be ordered, I may change my play style quite a bit and focus on ambushing shooters with a couple key hammer style units and characters. There are a lot of cool ways to buff our shooters now.
The more I read up on and toy with the rockgrinder the more i like it as a melee distraction carnifex. 100 points at the cheapest, but T7, 10W, 4+ save, 6+++. And it has good offensive capabilaties in melee. It offers exactly what carnifexes can not offer. High power attacks that hit reliavby enough.
KurtAngle2 wrote: You won't have the CPs to feed both Kraken and Cult of Four Armed emperor, realize that
Agreed 100%. The Carnifex variant builds pretty much don't use CP, but the Genestealer heavy builds are CP heavy. That said, GSC are burn CP like crazy. Proper CP management is going to be a big deal for us.
As a side note, I think having Vect hanging over an opponents head is just as useful as actually using it. Realistically, you should only be looking to stop one strat a game with it, and having the threat of stopping the key strat as a deterrent to using it is going to be useful. For example, a GSC player may not want to put his Aberent bomb on the table until he knows that Perfect Ambush won't be countered.
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Arkengate wrote: Do we have a tier list yet of how good things are? XD
Way to early for that. We have some idea of the things that look useful, some very interesting combos that might work or might fizzle at high level play, and some things that look meh. It is going to take some time to get the playtesting needed to really know what works, what our weaknesses are, and how we impact meta play.
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ph34r wrote: Anyone wanting to have their cult have a heavy Cthulhu/Ymgarl/Deep Ones/Nautical theme?
I'm wondering where to get more tentacle-heads for full on Tyranids, and for some cult hybrids.
The Genestealer box has a few (2 per sprue I think). The Metamorph/Hybrid box has at least 1. To do a full army you are going to have to spend lots of time digging in bits bins and bothering your Tyranid and GSC playing friends.
Niiai wrote: The more I read up on and toy with the rockgrinder the more i like it as a melee distraction carnifex. 100 points at the cheapest, but T7, 10W, 4+ save, 6+++. And it has good offensive capabilaties in melee. It offers exactly what carnifexes can not offer. High power attacks that hit reliavby enough.
I want to like rock grinders, I love the models. And at least they're better than the complete garbage that's the ridgerunner. But I've yet to see any battle where a rock grinder does something, they seem to melt to even causal fire, easily losing several of them per turn.
I'm still painting up 3 because I like the model, but I'm not expecting much out of them.
Red Corsair wrote: They are really good, the heavy venom canon and talons is the best way to load them out normally. A guy ran 11 carnefexes and old one eye at a local event not too long ago and he did well.
I'm not sold on this being the best way to add 'fexes into a GSC army. With mass 'fexes HVC+talons is solid, but a lot of that value comes from simply having so many of them on the board. I think in a splash list pure dakkafexes are better. 3 'fexes with double devourer put out a lot of shots that are effective at clearing screens/killing light infantry, and they are reasonably durable for the cost. I agree that the +1 shooting, Jorg. and -1 to hit upgrades are the way to go. With the price changes from CA, shooty 'nid builds are cheap enough to be worth looking at. A battalion with a pair of Neurothropes, 3x Rippers and 6x dakkafexes is just under 1000 points. It brings CP, a -1 LD power, and screen clearing while lacking screens in ability to kill Knights in CC. Now I just have to think of a faction that can reliably deal with centerpiece units like Knights, provide screens, and likes leadership reduction.
Yup. Strong disagree with Red Corsair on this one, no way is claws + Cannon the ideal load out. Dakkafexes in either Kraken or Jorm are the way to go. 6 of them is awesome. Make sure they have Maces.
How would you deck out the GSC half in your opinion, Babel?
I was just basing this off performance in my local events. Jormagander Fexes are -1 to hit and have a 2+ save if they don't advance and the HVC is an insanely good weapon. I just don't like twin devourers in 8th. The range 18" kills them for me as a good screen removal first turn. With a tail weapon and twin guns they are not a great threat in melee either. Your opponent will put his screen 1.1" from his DZ line and you are forced to advance, there goes your save bonus and your BS takes a hit. With prepared positions and take cover you will kill 3 guardsmen for 117 pts. Without take cover it's 6 GEQ. Think about rusted claw neophytes lol, every one would have a 3+ turn 1. The best solutions we have for screen removal IMO are T1 melee since it gets around all the silly save buffs.
All that said I don't think dakka fexes are awful by any means, I just doin't see much added value to GSC. We already mulch infantry, the only issue we have currently is killing enough turn 1. If I am already into a nid detachment I'll just use genestealers. It's basically 2 dakkafexes = 20 stealers.
I'm heavily basing these lists/ideas on using GSC to supplement my existing Tyranid army, at least until I can get enough Cult models painted to field a pure army. I don't expect to be winning LVO with one of these builds.
I disagree with you about the Carnifex build. I think that the HVC is only useful in a spam list that is able to run 10+ of them. D3 shots just isn't enough, even on a 3+ and at high S. If I'm going that route, I'm more inclined to put 10 or so units of Warriors on the table. I like Jorgi fexes with double devourers as a counter horde tool. They are less a screen removal tool and more of a way to counter 120 gaunts/150 Cultists/60 Genestealers.
I agree that we need a way to clear screens T1, but I don't trust T1 melee to get it done. Any army that is far enough back that you have to advance Carnifexes to get into range against are far enough back that you can't expect to get your T1 melee in against them. I think we have to rely on T2, either via shooting or rending claws. I like Carnifexes because they fill a counter horde role I don't have the GSC models built to fill. Side note, the snipers may be able to prevent take cover by popping the low wound character that gives the order, although I wouldn't rely on it.
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Astmeister wrote: So kraken genestealers with swarmlord for t1 screen clearing?
I think the Swarmlord is too expensive, even after the points drop, for what he brings. In a pure Kraken list, with Malanthrope support and several other high priority high T targets like flyrants to make target selection more complicated, he makes sense. If he is the only big model on the table, you rely on going first to protect him. I guess you could stick him in a pod and deep strike him into your own deployment zone, but that is even more points.
Im thinking of making this as a starting list (1250 pts) for learning to play the cult and just having fun but im quite sure there are claring problems with it that i cant see.
Idea is the Jackals drive by demo, Abberants kill bigger targets and Acolytes bomb everything they touch with the help of Kellermorph and Primus.
Rest chill around and see what they can do.
Red Corsair wrote: I was just basing this off performance in my local events. Jormagander Fexes are -1 to hit and have a 2+ save if they don't advance and the HVC is an insanely good weapon. I just don't like twin devourers in 8th. The range 18" kills them for me as a good screen removal first turn. With a tail weapon and twin guns they are not a great threat in melee either. Your opponent will put his screen 1.1" from his DZ line and you are forced to advance, there goes your save bonus and your BS takes a hit. With prepared positions and take cover you will kill 3 guardsmen for 117 pts. Without take cover it's 6 GEQ. Think about rusted claw neophytes lol, every one would have a 3+ turn 1. The best solutions we have for screen removal IMO are T1 melee since it gets around all the silly save buffs.
All that said I don't think dakka fexes are awful by any means, I just doin't see much added value to GSC. We already mulch infantry, the only issue we have currently is killing enough turn 1. If I am already into a nid detachment I'll just use genestealers. It's basically 2 dakkafexes = 20 stealers.
Depends how you run them. I use Kraken Dakkafexes with AG, they move like jetbikes and shoot at 4+ with senses. The Bone Mace is just an extra, quality attack for only 2 pts, 5 attacks is good.
I don't even think Senses are mandatory though. They will chew up infantry with or without them, I think that Acid Maw is a really underrated upgrade, and if they are near an OOE when they charge (also not mandatory but cool to have), they are hitting on 2+'s with some quality attacks and are still Dakkafexes in the mean time.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And I think their contribution is resilience. Some games they will just be what they point the Lascannons at, that's okay thats the same as anyone running tanks in any list, things die. Other games you are against an army with heavy anti-infantry strength like Deathwatch or something, that have to dedicate a lot to dealing with them, or other games you tie up the lascannons first and they are 3 bricks on the boards. I think it's good to have some harder to move things on your table to force your opponent to have to deal with them.
Rules question. When comparing Cult Leman Russ tanks with Astra Militarum Leman Russes, notice the wording of the 'emergency plasma vents' rule is completely different. For the AM Russ, when you roll a 1 to hit with a supercharged plasma cannon, the tank suffers a mortal wound for each 1 you rolled. Not the end of the world. But for the Cult Leman Russ, if you roll any 1's the tank takes 6 mortal wounds and cannot fire the plasma cannon for the rest of the battle! WTF!
Is this deliberately different, designed to reflect the fact the Cult Russes probably aren't as well maintained etc? Or, is it possible they'll FAQ the AM Russ so this rule is identical to the Cult Russ?
Marktoney wrote: Rules question. When comparing Cult Leman Russ tanks with Astra Militarum Leman Russes, notice the wording of the 'emergency plasma vents' rule is completely different. For the AM Russ, when you roll a 1 to hit with a supercharged plasma cannon, the tank suffers a mortal wound for each 1 you rolled. Not the end of the world. But for the Cult Leman Russ, if you roll any 1's the tank takes 6 mortal wounds and cannot fire the plasma cannon for the rest of the battle! WTF!
Is this deliberately different, designed to reflect the fact the Cult Russes probably aren't as well maintained etc? Or, is it possible they'll FAQ the AM Russ so this rule is identical to the Cult Russ?
It’s the older version of the rule from ththe index.
My guess is that they copy/pasted without checking.
I have been looking through the codex for over a week and finally made a list I want to try out. Albeit, it is not a dedicated GSC list but it should be fun and powerful;
The Idea is the TBC + Relic gives the Patriarch 3++ and cant be Overwatched. Bio Adaptation also grants me +1 A and S. Followed by Mental Onslaught and Mind Control.
The primus will have Alien Majesty to make his +1 to hit and re-rolling 1s to wound a 9" aura. Pretty good for the 3 units of acolytes.
Magus has single minded obession so if a see a knight I can pick it to re-roll all my wounds. I also get 2 units now I get re-rolling wounds on which is nice for an army thats 95% CC. Also has Mass Hypnosis and Might from Beyond.
All Acolyte units are 16 scrubs and 4 rock cutters. Between the Primus and Might from beyond. A single unit of these guys do a lot of damage. Will probably use Prefect Ambush Stratagem for 3Cp to gain an extra D6 movement for a better charge than hoping for a 9. I also have 4 chances of 1 shooting something in C after all my fighting and if it has lost enough wounds.
Kraken Nids go really well with cult ambushing GSC.
While I really wanted GSC Genestealers. because they are Elites and an extra 3ppm. I personally believe Nid Stealers are better point for point. However, I am happy to be proven wrong. Kraken stelars will have a reliable chance at getting into charges if my CAGSC units fail them.
Broodlord is mainly there to cast The Horror so that when I cast Mental Onslaught my opponent will have a -1 leadership giving me more reliability when rolling the d6 die. also CC backup if needed.
Malanthrope is to stay at the back with the Tyrannofexs to make them -1 to hit.
The Tyrannofex probably look weird in a list like this. But, 6-12 S10 -3 D6 shoots hitting on 4+ seems like a really god investment for 203ppm. I usually play Doomsday Ark when I play my Necrons which are D6 shots at S10 -5 D6 on 3+. I would happily give up 3+ Bs if it meant reliable shoots.
So, in yer opinions. How does this list look? I was thinking of adding a Swarmlord but not sure if it be a smart Idea tbh.
Odrankt wrote: I have been looking through the codex for over a week and finally made a list I want to try out. Albeit, it is not a dedicated GSC list but it should be fun and powerful;......
....Anyway to improve this list?
I think you can do better then picking tyrannofexes. Kraken genestealers are fast but still sitting ducks midfield and take the first round punishment before the acolytes drop in. You should get more small units to claim backfield objectives or pick that one objective on the enemies flank. Didn't count the points but I would go for the following list:
(Battalion)
HQ: Magus
HQ: Patriarch
TR: 20 acolytes + 6 Heavy rock cutters
TR: 20 acolytes
TR: 5 acolytes
(Vanguard detachment)
HQ: Primus
EL: 15 P genestealers
EL: 15 P genestealers
EL: clamavus
(Battalion)
HQ: Flying Hive tyrant (-1 to hit relic)
HQ: neurothrope
TR: rippers
TR: rippers
TR: rippers
EL: 6 x Hive guard
I prefere to drop the vanguard and get an iconward + 3 troops (neophytes or small units acolytes) for another battalion, if you can.
At least get one big unit acolytes to get the best out of 'perfect ambush'.
Clavamus gives an extra +1 charge.
Genestealers can drop in and benefit from HQ aura's.
With double shooting stratagem the Hive guard can bring in some hurt without showing themselves.
Odrankt wrote: I have been looking through the codex for over a week and finally made a list I want to try out. Albeit, it is not a dedicated GSC list but it should be fun and powerful;
So people worried about their acolytes being able to not get screened out to siberia on turn 2:
Bring rusted claw demo bikes. Use the jackal alphus and the lie in wait stratagem so they can come in 3" away and hit on a 2+ and wound T7 and below on a 2+ using the extra explosives and drive by demolitions stratagem.
This forces the opponent to screen more tightly or get owned by the demo charges. That in turn allows the meat of your army to get into the meat of their army more quickly/efficiently.
I'm working out fully mechanized cult list with lots of trucks and bikes, and wondering what all of your thoughts are including a Brood Brothers auxiliary support of a squadron of 2 Vulture Gunships with the twin punisher loadout. For 320pts, that would be 80 S5 shots for clearing out screens and chaff.
If my math is correct, thats approximately the same damage output as an equal number of buffed genestealers, only they don't have to weather overwatch and are a legitimate T1 threat.
At -1 to hit, it could force some tough target priority decisions for the opponent between those and my Rockgrinders charging up field.
A perfect ambush with Acolytes.
So i need to roll atleast 3 on a D6 to make hand flamers usable or should i keep that in reserve for the next round when enemies are closer?
Do i have a right feeling that Anointed throng is pretty useless, unless i make Abominant my warlord.
But, deliverance bloodsurge feels good to take for the stratagem (draw blood) making blob of Acolytes pretty much wounding on 2/3s.
Okay question time, can you Summon turn 1, not in deployment? And then say Chuck lots of Demo charges on a SM character from 3 inchs away killing him before they get to activate?
Where is the verbiage that let you get around the Tactical Reserve Rule?
EnTyme wrote: RAW, yes. I wouldn't be surprised to see that stratagem get FAQ'd to require all three to be in the same detachment, but for now, that's legal.
I doubt that it will be changed. It is pretty difficult to get all 3 characters in the same detachment, as in, you need to take a battalion, a brigade, or supreme command. I don't think it was GW's intention to force players into those detachments.
Now they might force you to have the same creed for all 3 characters, but I still think that would be adding additional restrictions to an already heavily regulated character selection options.
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Reemule wrote: Okay question time, can you Summon turn 1, not in deployment? And then say Chuck lots of Demo charges on a SM character from 3 inchs away killing him before they get to activate?
Where is the verbiage that let you get around the Tactical Reserve Rule?
I am interested in seeing this as well. Folks in other forums seem to think that it is not a viable tactic.
Do Daemon players get to summon on turn 1? (Outside of their deployment zone.)
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Araablane wrote: A perfect ambush with Acolytes.
So i need to roll atleast 3 on a D6 to make hand flamers usable or should i keep that in reserve for the next round when enemies are closer?
I believe that the consensus is to use "Lying in Wait" for the flamers, since it puts you 3" away, without the option to charge, (which could be hampered anyway, if you are successful with your hand flamers).
Catalyst says that it can be cast on a friendly tyranid unit within 18". The GSC units have the Tyranid Faction key word. Can a Neurothrope cast on Acolytes? This came up in my game yesterday.
I don't think there is an exception that lets you summon outside of deployment zone on first turn. That leaves you restricted to units that you don't mind being in your deployment zone, so snipers, replacement screens, things like that.
Away from my books (yay job) so I can't double check the wording.
Speaking of summoning, are Magusus (Magusi?) summonable? If so, what spells do they know? Could they cast the turn they land? Can I use summoning to generate a 2nd or 3rd turn Magi that gets to be wherever on the board I need her with whatever spell I want? Cause 2 CP to shut down overwatch on a key target, or lock in some mortal wounds on weakened character, or mind control a unit on the other side of the board is good value for CP.
Masutaman wrote: Catalyst says that it can be cast on a friendly tyranid unit within 18". The GSC units have the Tyranid Faction key word. Can a Neurothrope cast on Acolytes? This came up in my game yesterday.
Masutaman wrote: Catalyst says that it can be cast on a friendly tyranid unit within 18". The GSC units have the Tyranid Faction key word. Can a Neurothrope cast on Acolytes? This came up in my game yesterday.
No. This is from the Tyranid's FAQ:
They can't make use of, but can Tyranids psychic target and have affect on them? Like CSM for instance, DG can't Warptime but can be provide by Sons.
Masutaman wrote: Catalyst says that it can be cast on a friendly tyranid unit within 18". The GSC units have the Tyranid Faction key word. Can a Neurothrope cast on Acolytes? This came up in my game yesterday.
No. This is from the Tyranid's FAQ:
Got to admit I read that as saying GSC units cannot use as in posses relics, cannot cast Nid powers themselves, cannot play a Nid Strategem. I did not read the FAQ to say that GSC units which have the Tyranid keyword can't benefit from powers/abilities etc which list the <tyranid> keyword. I assumed the FAQ's purpose was to make clear they are district armies and you can't just say your GSC has cult creed "kraken" and use Tyranid abilities/relics.
I was quite sure about my reading till I read in the Codex that Genestealers and a Patriach didn't benefit from the Cult ability which of course is mini-rage inducing, but as an old player who loves Genestealer models I've lost track of how many rule changes they've been put through which made them worse, so not getting the cult creed benefit is pretty small beer overall... and I must remain grateful for my 5++, thanks GW ;-)
Masutaman wrote: Catalyst says that it can be cast on a friendly tyranid unit within 18". The GSC units have the Tyranid Faction key word. Can a Neurothrope cast on Acolytes? This came up in my game yesterday.
No. This is from the Tyranid's FAQ:
Got to admit I read that as saying GSC units cannot use as in posses relics, cannot cast Nid powers themselves, cannot play a Nid Strategem. I did not read the FAQ to say that GSC units which have the Tyranid keyword can't benefit from powers/abilities etc which list the <tyranid> keyword. I assumed the FAQ's purpose was to make clear they are district armies and you can't just say your GSC has cult creed "kraken" and use Tyranid abilities/relics.
I was quite sure about my reading till I read in the Codex that Genestealers and a Patriach didn't benefit from the Cult ability which of course is mini-rage inducing, but as an old player who loves Genestealer models I've lost track of how many rule changes they've been put through which made them worse, so not getting the cult creed benefit is pretty small beer overall... and I must remain grateful for my 5++, thanks GW ;-)
I totally agree, it almost seems like GW doesn't want you to use any Genestealers in a Genestealer Cult army...
So no Cult Creed for the Patriarch, but why not let the Patriach take a Hive Fleet "Tactic" then? Let them use the rules of their "parent" fleet.
luke1705 wrote: So people worried about their acolytes being able to not get screened out to siberia on turn 2:
Bring rusted claw demo bikes. Use the jackal alphus and the lie in wait stratagem so they can come in 3" away and hit on a 2+ and wound T7 and below on a 2+ using the extra explosives and drive by demolitions stratagem.
This forces the opponent to screen more tightly or get owned by the demo charges. That in turn allows the meat of your army to get into the meat of their army more quickly/efficiently.
How does your jackal alphus manage to be within range of them while they are 3" away from the enemy lines? If you're worried about screening, how are you getting models with 6" range guns in range on the top of turn 1 before you've managed to kill anything?
Are you saying the acolytes should wait until turn 3 to come in? If so, that is the problem in the first place - it'd be easy to clear the screen turn 2 by dropping a melee unit, charging, then turn 3 dropping your vehicle killing unit and charging. It's just such poor game tempo you've probably lost by that time anyway.
Nah, if you want a screen out of the way take an imperial guard spearhead with tank commander punishers, wyverns and brood brother mortar hwts to clear out chaff turn 1.
luke1705 wrote: So people worried about their acolytes being able to not get screened out to siberia on turn 2:
Bring rusted claw demo bikes. Use the jackal alphus and the lie in wait stratagem so they can come in 3" away and hit on a 2+ and wound T7 and below on a 2+ using the extra explosives and drive by demolitions stratagem.
This forces the opponent to screen more tightly or get owned by the demo charges. That in turn allows the meat of your army to get into the meat of their army more quickly/efficiently.
How does your jackal alphus manage to be within range of them while they are 3" away from the enemy lines? If you're worried about screening, how are you getting models with 6" range guns in range on the top of turn 1 before you've managed to kill anything?
Are you saying the acolytes should wait until turn 3 to come in? If so, that is the problem in the first place - it'd be easy to clear the screen turn 2 by dropping a melee unit, charging, then turn 3 dropping your vehicle killing unit and charging. It's just such poor game tempo you've probably lost by that time anyway.
Nah, if you want a screen out of the way take an imperial guard spearhead with tank commander punishers, wyverns and brood brother mortar hwts to clear out chaff turn 1.
The Jackal's ability works with a 12" range with the bikes, so if the Jackal also appears via underground tunnels (i.e. 9" away from the enemy) there is is a reasonably chance it could get within 12" of the squad which is 3" or more from the enemy. Alternatively it's pretty quick and can just advance across the field (forefitting firing if needbe) to get in range. Of course in either set up the chances are very high the Jackal will get shot to bits immediately the opponent gets their turn.
Though I love the idea of popping up within 3" and throwing demo charges and the kitchen sink at someone, I know that the opponent knowing of this tactic will mean they place their bubble wrap accordingly. The bikes of course also have a reasonably (or not!) footprint on those bases.
Masutaman wrote: Catalyst says that it can be cast on a friendly tyranid unit within 18". The GSC units have the Tyranid Faction key word. Can a Neurothrope cast on Acolytes? This came up in my game yesterday.
No. This is from the Tyranid's FAQ:
Got to admit I read that as saying GSC units cannot use as in posses relics, cannot cast Nid powers themselves, cannot play a Nid Strategem. I did not read the FAQ to say that GSC units which have the Tyranid keyword can't benefit from powers/abilities etc which list the <tyranid> keyword. I assumed the FAQ's purpose was to make clear they are district armies and you can't just say your GSC has cult creed "kraken" and use Tyranid abilities/relics.
I was quite sure about my reading till I read in the Codex that Genestealers and a Patriach didn't benefit from the Cult ability which of course is mini-rage inducing, but as an old player who loves Genestealer models I've lost track of how many rule changes they've been put through which made them worse, so not getting the cult creed benefit is pretty small beer overall... and I must remain grateful for my 5++, thanks GW ;-)
I totally agree, it almost seems like GW doesn't want you to use any Genestealers in a Genestealer Cult army...
So no Cult Creed for the Patriarch, but why not let the Patriach take a Hive Fleet "Tactic" then? Let them use the rules of their "parent" fleet.
The jackal Alphus buffs bike 12" and has a 14" base move. You would need to be a poor planner to not get her in range of some bikes.
As to summoning, yes you can do it turn 1. They are not set up in tactical reserve which is the rule that normally restricts units from deploying turn 1. The only stipulation is that in matched play you need to pay reinforcement points.
You don't see demon players use it often because in order to summon they need to inflict possible mortal wounds on the character doing the summoning, that character to cannot have moved that turn and also it has a 12" range from the summoner.
Those reasons make demon summoning much less viable and thus you don't see it done.
Red Corsair wrote: The jackal Alphus buffs bike 12" and has a 14" base move. You would need to be a poor planner to not get her in range of some bikes.
As to summoning, yes you can do it turn 1. They are not set up in tactical reserve which is the rule that normally restricts units from deploying turn 1. The only stipulation is that in matched play you need to pay reinforcement points.
You don't see demon players use it often because in order to summon they need to inflict possible mortal wounds on the character doing the summoning, that character to cannot have moved that turn and also it has a 12" range from the summoner.
Those reasons make demon summoning much less viable and thus you don't see it done.
Daemon summoning rules also state "treat summoned units as arriving reinforcements" meaning turn 1 summoning can only put units in your deployment zone. Its essentially standard deepstrike that might fail and might damage characters and you can't do turn 1 bombs that might offset the risks. TBH i see the summoning strategem getting that rule to lower the turn 1 shenanigans GW is so keen on stopping.
Red Corsair wrote: The jackal Alphus buffs bike 12" and has a 14" base move. You would need to be a poor planner to not get her in range of some bikes.
As to summoning, yes you can do it turn 1. They are not set up in tactical reserve which is the rule that normally restricts units from deploying turn 1. The only stipulation is that in matched play you need to pay reinforcement points.
You don't see demon players use it often because in order to summon they need to inflict possible mortal wounds on the character doing the summoning, that character to cannot have moved that turn and also it has a 12" range from the summoner.
Those reasons make demon summoning much less viable and thus you don't see it done.
Daemon summoning rules also state "treat summoned units as arriving reinforcements" meaning turn 1 summoning can only put units in your deployment zone. Its essentially standard deepstrike that might fail and might damage characters and you can't do turn 1 bombs that might offset the risks. TBH i see the summoning strategem getting that rule to lower the turn 1 shenanigans GW is so keen on stopping.
Except that the "Your Deployment zone only" rule doesn't exist anymore, not even in beta form.
Correct, it works and is a very useful trick though I wouldn't pour more then 120ish points into it.
Has anyone considered spamming trucks full of neophytes.
128 points for a truck + squad with 2 stubbers and two webbers seems solid. I have been dabbling with the idea of making a solid gunline with cheap bodies and lots of armor. I know trucks haven't been discussed favorably so far, but 72pts for an open topped vehicle with all it's gun sdoesn't seem bad. My dark eldar grab a venom with 5 warriors and a blaster for 127, and those are solid. While the BS and saves are worse your basically doubling the shots and wounds on both transport and occupants. Could run an alphus or two along with them.
If I swap guns on my grinders I can do 6, I'll have to give it a go at some point here.
Well I think trucks are kinda cheap and punchy enough to be a option. Although I favour shotguns with those and I am thinking about giving acolytes a run with that.
But what about Sentinels and Ridgerunners? Anyone else wondering about those as there is few things those could be used for.
Has anyone considered spamming trucks full of neophytes.
Yes. Most of my index lists consisted of 4 trucks of Neophytes, 2 trucks with demo Acolytes, and a trio of Rockgrinders as a starting point. One or two may die each turn, but they excel at pinning the opponent in their deployment zone and counter-act the usual issue with mass anti-infantry firepower. Taken en-mass they also aren't too bad against dedicated anti-tank, as every wound saved with rugged construction is one more shot the foe needs to make. Often by turn 3 or so I'd have a few destroyed trucks and a few mangled, but the foe was trapped in their own deployment area and I would be holding all the objectives.
I'm currently thinking of the following for an all-mech list.
(Note that this is a very heavy skew list, not necessarily a TAC one)
Total (so far): 1790 points - 210 points left for customization. 14 CP
I'd probably run this as Hive Cult. Give one of the Jackals the Gift From Beyond sniper rifle and use them to try to get Chilling Efficiency running each turn. At that point, all units within range of an Alphus (which should be everything) will be looking at +2 to their hit rolls against the key target (Knight, Primarch, Tank Commander, etc.), so a ballistic skill of 2+ if stationary or a 3+ on the move with potential reroll 1's to-hit from the warlord. Long-range chaff removal should not be too large a concern with all the Heavy Stubbers (22 total) paired with the accuracy improvements, so I focused more on anti-armor weaponry. Both battalions are well set up to run as Deliverance Broodsurge detachments with an Iconward to take the relic and/or the field commander trait if desired. The Acolytes being broken into MSUs allows the truck squads to throw 3 demolition charges each turn without needing to spend command points on the extra explosives stratagem. Such squads still work well enough for bullying other troops in melee, so they still have utility once their payload is delivered or their ride is wrecked. Could also exchange the Acolyte demo squads and caches for a more balanced approach of Neophytes and melee-centric Acolytes. I just loved my drive-by demo squads in the index and wanted to see if I could get a close approximation.
With the points left over I'm probably going to look towards bulking out my infantry to take advantage of the trait. Could possibly convert the third detachment into a battalion by adding a Magus and shuffling around some points to get three shotgun Neophyte squads for screening. Alternatively there are sufficient points for a pair of Rockgrinders, an Aberrant squad, two 10-strong Acolyte Squads for ambushing, or perhaps a few Jackal units (I think should be able to squeeze in 3-4 basic squads with demolition charges).
Odrankt wrote: Seeing as GSC genestealers don't get any Cult benefits due to "Genestealers" keyword, is there any point bringing them over Nid Genestealers?
GSC genestealers are 15ppm, Elites, don't have any cult benefits, no useful Stratgems can be used on them .
Nid genestealers are 12ppm, Troops, have hive mind benefits, can use a good few stratagems from the nid codex.
You can pretty much garantee a charge anywhere on the board turn 2 or 3. 20 stealers, in your grill, showing you that rending was not just a keyword in the old rulebooks.
The difference is that you can buff GSC genestealers to pretty obscene levels while Tyranid genestealers are mostly on their own. You can’t compare them in a vacuum when the GSC version has The First Curse with its assorted buffs plus all the character/warlord/psychic buffs.
Odrankt wrote: Seeing as GSC genestealers don't get any Cult benefits due to "Genestealers" keyword, is there any point bringing them over Nid Genestealers?
GSC genestealers are 15ppm, Elites, don't have any cult benefits, no useful Stratgems can be used on them .
Nid genestealers are 12ppm, Troops, have hive mind benefits, can use a good few stratagems from the nid codex.
GSC Purestrain Genestealers benefit from Cult Ambush and Unquestioning Loyalty.
Badablack wrote: The difference is that you can buff GSC genestealers to pretty obscene levels while Tyranid genestealers are mostly on their own. You can’t compare them in a vacuum when the GSC version has The First Curse with its assorted buffs plus all the character/warlord/psychic buffs.
How are your buffing your GSC genestealers? There isn't much in the codex that buffs them besides the Characters? Also, TFC is pretty unreliable as it's D3 random powers and on a 5-6 you swap advance + charge for 4++. I don't think TFC is a good Stratgem tbh. Rolling a 3-4 gives you the best ability (+1 advance + charge) but it's a 1/3 chance of happening and not sure if it's worth a 1cp re-roll. Making TFC a 2CP gem if it doesn't work out during the 1st roll
Odrankt wrote: Seeing as GSC genestealers don't get any Cult benefits due to "Genestealers" keyword, is there any point bringing them over Nid Genestealers?
GSC genestealers are 15ppm, Elites, don't have any cult benefits, no useful Stratgems can be used on them .
Nid genestealers are 12ppm, Troops, have hive mind benefits, can use a good few stratagems from the nid codex.
GSC Purestrain Genestealers benefit from Cult Ambush and Unquestioning Loyalty.
Is that really a worthy trade off when your probably running Kraken nid Stealers? Not trying to cause any arguments with anyone but we might as well figure out which Genestealers version is the better one to run interms of their power, support and what they provide for us.
How are most GSC players planning on dealing with a flyer heavy list? Most of the lists I have seen don’t factor them in as a threat (which is pretty serious, since they can block movement and turn our chances to hit into pathetic odds.)
The best I have come up with is to ally in a heavy amount of psykers, to mortal wound them out of the sky. The second best is to ally in a bunch of biovores and/or spore mines.
Anyone else have concerns about flyer heavy lists?
Jrandom wrote: How are most GSC players planning on dealing with a flyer heavy list? Most of the lists I have seen don’t factor them in as a threat (which is pretty serious, since they can block movement and turn our chances to hit into pathetic odds.)
The best I have come up with is to ally in a heavy amount of psykers, to mortal wound them out of the sky. The second best is to ally in a bunch of biovores and/or spore mines.
Anyone else have concerns about flyer heavy lists?
if you can get close enough an acolyte blob with hand flamers can land 10-20d6 autohits
jumping acolytes in to roast them, blowing them up in the psychic phase with Mental Onslaught, Goliath Incinerators, maybe sniping them, as I think a Sanctus sniping a hemlock could be worth a shot., despite it being a tough shot,
Flooding the board with bodies so they have nowhere to go is a favourite too.
SHUPPET wrote: You can run Kraken Stealers, and Purestrains both in the same list, they work well together as balls to the wall offense.
Then this happens: kraken genestealers die first turn and GSC 'ambushes' in next in line, to late to the party.
Why do players always assume kraken genestealers 'get in close combat' turn 2? They die before that happens..
SHUPPET wrote: You can run Kraken Stealers, and Purestrains both in the same list, they work well together as balls to the wall offense.
Then this happens: kraken genestealers die first turn and GSC 'ambushes' in next in line, to late to the party. Why do players always assume kraken genestealers 'get in close combat' turn 2? They die before that happens..
Hmmm however do top players make it work then?
If you play poorly, or you run into a poor match-up, maybe they won't make it to combat turn 2 - thats absolutely okay. But a lot of the time you can wrap something up midfield, or they can just deploy more carefully and hang around a Malanthrope, get Catalysted, chill out of LoS on busier boards especially if your squad is around only 15. There is a middle ground between "never being able to make it to combat" and "blindly shoving 240 pts of claws up the middle of the board turn 1 like you're a Khorne player".
Played two 1000pts games yesterday, and these are my notes/observations so far:
I can confirm we are a command point hungry army. Anything less than a double battalion is going to hamstring the cannon part of the glass cannon as you absolutely cannot make the most of cult ambush without the stratagems.
Speaking of cult ambush, you really need to plan ahead which unit or units you are going to build your ambush around. You will not be able to ambush everything into charge/shoot range that you want to, and failing that 9" charge is devastating. Without the old index cult ambush table and sympathy beta stratagems they gave us, it's far more unreliable to bring half your army in via reserves.
Genestealers are feeling like a points sink and I don't think I will be including them in my final 2000pt list. Unless you are buffing them with MFB, a patriarch, Mass Hypnosis, and Perfect Ambush, they are getting shredded before they start shredding. With all that support, you are looking at nearly a 500pt investment and 3 of your precious CP that is only effective on one part of the table, and I don't see them making it into a second combat unless you are up against a tightly packed formation they can consolidate into. I will continue to try to make them work in small point games, but for now I'd rather the increased mobility and durability of vehicles and bikes.
Speaking of bikes, MVPs of the day for me. With Rusted Claw, they are far more durable than I imagined they'd be. I ran one unit with the shotgun/demo charge loadout everyone is talking about. The Drive By strat is really fun, as I used it to evaporate a Raider, and then moved 14" out of LOS. With all the wounds, increased toughness, hard to hit, and buff from the Rusted Claw trait, they were useful to camp on objectives after delivering their payload. Surprisingly useful in CC against non CC infantry as they just grind down the opponent a model or two at a time. I plan on having a unit of 9 with cultist knives rush up the board turn 1 to start thinning lines.
I'm not seeing this as a horde army, and not buying into the 20 man Acolyte flamer blobs. Morale is going to be an issue once you exceed 10 models. My 5 man unit with flamers and CC mining weapons were a great tac unit to counter my opponent's own CC. Even at 8pts a model for the flamer option, it's just a waste to hold objectives with them (something you will eventually need to do) when they only have 6" range. 10 Neophytes with the +1 to save rolls from Rusted Claw sitting in cover on the other hand... That's Space Marine durability at a fraction of the cost. They soaked up a surprising amount of firepower and scored most of my VPs. Camping in a truck is even better as your opponent will have to decide between putting anti-armor firepower into a 72pt model or going after your artillery hammering him/her from the backfield. It was another solid choice and got me far closer to winning the game than those 15 genestealers did...
Even without genestealers the Patriarch is still worth an HQ slot. The fearless bubble is always useful, and you can buff him up with MFB and the biomorphic adaptation warlord trait. Tack on a familiar and Mental Onslaught and you are looking at a surprisingly useful anti-armor piece that is easy to screen/shield thanks to him being a character.
My last note is to echo what someone else said long ago in this thread. Do not try to Alpha or Beta strike. Play the long game. Establish board control early to force the enemy to move out of position, and bring in reinforcements a unit or two at a time to make counter attacks more difficult. Positioning is especially key as you will need to use cover and LOS to protect your assets. Foot slogging genestealers up the board Kraken style is not going to be effective with this army as you just don't match the durability and threat saturation of a full blown Tyranid army.
SHUPPET wrote: You can run Kraken Stealers, and Purestrains both in the same list, they work well together as balls to the wall offense.
Then this happens: kraken genestealers die first turn and GSC 'ambushes' in next in line, to late to the party.
Why do players always assume kraken genestealers 'get in close combat' turn 2? They die before that happens..
Hmmm however do top players make it work then?
If you play poorly, or you run into a poor match-up, maybe they won't make it to combat turn 2 - thats absolutely okay. But a lot of the time you can wrap something up midfield, or they can just deploy more carefully and hang around a Malanthrope, get Catalysted, chill out of LoS on busier boards especially if your squad is around only 15. There is a middle ground between "never being able to make it to combat" and "blindly shoving 240 pts of claws up the middle of the board turn 1 like you're a Khorne player".
If you can wrap something up mid field first turn then the opponent did something really wrong. You cannot afford to just chill out in the backfield in a game, that in most cases is decided at the end of turn 3. The game has changed with 'orks' and 'GSC' and if you think that 'top' players make it work then show me a list that works these days with walking Kraken genestealers.
The same goes for carnifex spam. 'point-wise' a great deal at the beginning until knights got tougher and the loota bomb showed its face.
SHUPPET wrote: You can run Kraken Stealers, and Purestrains both in the same list, they work well together as balls to the wall offense.
Then this happens: kraken genestealers die first turn and GSC 'ambushes' in next in line, to late to the party.
Why do players always assume kraken genestealers 'get in close combat' turn 2? They die before that happens..
Hmmm however do top players make it work then?
If you play poorly, or you run into a poor match-up, maybe they won't make it to combat turn 2 - thats absolutely okay. But a lot of the time you can wrap something up midfield, or they can just deploy more carefully and hang around a Malanthrope, get Catalysted, chill out of LoS on busier boards especially if your squad is around only 15. There is a middle ground between "never being able to make it to combat" and "blindly shoving 240 pts of claws up the middle of the board turn 1 like you're a Khorne player".
IDK, I haven't exactly seen many stealer shock armies dominating. They either win big or lose big based on opponents army, round number (early round inexperience) or terrain.
They do especially well on ITC magic box tables which is a bit artificial. If you don't grab that kind of table it's much harder.
If you hold your stealers for a turn you still haven't presented a way to cut down their screen as well. Each turn that cheap screen remains is less board control, which means your deepstrikes are going to fall flatter and flatter.
It's why I am already back to toying with swarms of gun toting neos and scouting vehicles. We lack orders (until the FAQ clarifies), but we have cult ambush and WAY more aura effects that make us distinct. Are neos can easily be made to have fearless, 6+++ , +1 strength, deny the witch, +1 BS, +1 WS, +1 adv and charge, reroll 1's to hit or wound. Then you add in the cult creed on a 5ppm squad that gets 4 upgrade weapons base per 10 models for dirt cheap. If BB happen to get orders it just seals it for me. Rusted claw neophyte anchor to deploy with said characters/auras and 80 shots for 80 points cult ambushing guardsmen after FRSR.
What do you do about elites targets? The same characters providing buffs is the answer. I'll take a patriarch/sanctus/locus backed by a mob of neophytes any day.
Fliers? Just ignore them, you have 200+ bodies. The best fliers currently lack AI guns.
SHUPPET wrote: You can run Kraken Stealers, and Purestrains both in the same list, they work well together as balls to the wall offense.
Then this happens: kraken genestealers die first turn and GSC 'ambushes' in next in line, to late to the party. Why do players always assume kraken genestealers 'get in close combat' turn 2? They die before that happens..
Hmmm however do top players make it work then?
If you play poorly, or you run into a poor match-up, maybe they won't make it to combat turn 2 - thats absolutely okay. But a lot of the time you can wrap something up midfield, or they can just deploy more carefully and hang around a Malanthrope, get Catalysted, chill out of LoS on busier boards especially if your squad is around only 15. There is a middle ground between "never being able to make it to combat" and "blindly shoving 240 pts of claws up the middle of the board turn 1 like you're a Khorne player".
If you can wrap something up mid field first turn then the opponent did something really wrong. You cannot afford to just chill out in the backfield in a game, that in most cases is decided at the end of turn 3. The game has changed with 'orks' and 'GSC' and if you think that 'top' players make it work then show me a list that works these days with walking Kraken genestealers.
The same goes for carnifex spam. 'point-wise' a great deal at the beginning until knights got tougher and the loota bomb showed its face.
Yet somehow Matt Root got to #1 Tyranids player in the ITC, by doing just this. Hmmm. How did Cooper Waddell go undefeated at SoCal open with 15x Kraken Stealers + 15x Purestrains? How bout LGT where the only 2 Tyranid players to break top 16 both ran this too? This is the top of my head, you are talking about a proven strategy here that's gotten a lot of results, it seems insane to say Kraken stealers don't work.
This kind of hyperbole is a big problem with the community. So many people just write something off as "impractical" because you can't guarantee it every single game. If your opponent couldn't take any midfield ground in his first turn for fear of getting wrapped by a Stealer unit, that's a massive advantage vs a lot of armies. Many times they have to try contest it and do their best to deal with Stealers in another way. If you genuinely can't find a use for a single unit of Stealers in a Nids list, that's a you problem.
Red Corsair wrote: IDK, I haven't exactly seen many stealer shock armies dominating. They either win big or lose big based on opponents army, round number (early round inexperience) or terrain.
This isn't even remotely Stealershock, its the opposite. This is like 180 pts of Kraken Stealers we are talking about here, and/or some Purestrains. If anything Swarmlord + 2x Krakstealers is closer to something that you might call Stealershock because of the much higher investment into making that work, though even that is a stretch to call it Stealershock I think.
it's not just 180 though. Your burning a detachment and paying for the other requirements. If you go patrol you spend less but gain zero CP and are down to 2 detachments to acquire all your CP. If you take a battalion, your now spending way more then 180. You can try to keep it cheap by taking rippers, but rippers do nothing for GSC since all our cheap stuff deepstrikes anyway. I wouldn't mind the broodlords honestly, but the patriarch is far better and again every time you take an outside detachment, that's one less patriarch you can field. So your not making much gain.
I'll keep posting it to, it does zero to help mitigate a screen for later reserves. 15 stealers aren't surviving mid table for 2 turns unless your opponent isn't concerned with them. You need swarmy to butcher a screen t1 going that route and I don't think it's worth the points or the risk of going second. Remember the kraken stuff can't be blipped so it's going to be effecting your other deployment tricks.
Yet somehow Matt Root got to #1 Tyranids player in the ITC, by doing just this. Hmmm. How did Cooper Waddell go undefeated at SoCal open with 15x Kraken Stealers + 15x Purestrains? How bout LGT where the only 2 Tyranid players to break top 16 both ran this too? This is the top of my head, you are talking about a proven strategy here that's gotten a lot of results, it seems insane to say Kraken stealers don't work.
These are old lists at a different time in a different setup. Cooper Waddell got a Swarmlord + genestealer combi with a purestrain + primus combi with the old GSC cult ambush rules. This is not an argument for GSC players to include kraken Genestealers because with the new cult ambush rules it's makes much more sense to use GSC units for mid-field domination. Also 'cooper' didn't have to deal with teleporting ork greentide + loota bomb. I played the Ork loota bomb and could kill 3 flying hive tyrants in one shooting turn. Different times man.
SHUPPET wrote: This kind of hyperbole is a big problem with the community. So many people just write something off as "impractical" because you can't guarantee it every single game. If your opponent couldn't take any midfield ground in his first turn for fear of getting wrapped by a Stealer unit, that's a massive advantage vs a lot of armies. Many times they have to try contest it and do their best to deal with Stealers in another way. If you genuinely can't find a use for a single unit of Stealers in a Nids list, that's a you problem.
A 'stay of my lawn' unit has his benefits but that doesn't win the game. If you want to make a case for kraken stealers from a GSC-player perspective then give my a list. This is about GSC tactic's so assume you are making a case for adding kraken Genestealers and not a full tyranid armylist.
I think there is no perfect answer for first turn screen clearing, because all the units have drawbacks.
Still I think that there is a list of what could work :
So I have been thinking what are our best first turn shanagins?
I can think of 3 are there more?
Summon 20 Neos with 2 GL/2H Stubbers @ 9.1" and fire away. Allows chaff clearing is a huge distraction and could nail first strike (likely to give first strike as well though).
Sanctus Perfect ambush sniper shot allows 2 shots (one during your or your opps movement phase) good vs psyker heavy armies for chain reaction perils. (even better with relic rifle)
Biker Demo rush if opp is foolish enough to set up something within 20". Use drive by demo and extra explosives to make his day then drive away.
What other tricks can we pull that other armies can't?
Each of these tactics are relatively cheap (110pts or less) and can have a big impact on the game.
Masutaman wrote: Catalyst says that it can be cast on a friendly tyranid unit within 18". The GSC units have the Tyranid Faction key word. Can a Neurothrope cast on Acolytes? This came up in my game yesterday.
No. This is from the Tyranid's FAQ:
Got to admit I read that as saying GSC units cannot use as in posses relics, cannot cast Nid powers themselves, cannot play a Nid Strategem. I did not read the FAQ to say that GSC units which have the Tyranid keyword can't benefit from powers/abilities etc which list the <tyranid> keyword. I assumed the FAQ's purpose was to make clear they are district armies and you can't just say your GSC has cult creed "kraken" and use Tyranid abilities/relics.
Im certain you are correct with your interpretation. GSC units without the FAQ statement would have the ability to take almost everything from the nid dex. They added in that statement to make sure that does not happen. However since we still have the <TYRANID> keyword you can cast powers on your GSC units. This same interaction is all over the Chaos codex's
On to another topic, I am starting GSC. I have come up with 3 lists (and more brewing). Tell me what you all think:
The Tyranid FAQ includes a bit that clarifies that every instance of "Tyranid" in the targeting rules for stratagems, warlord traits, and psychic powers should be read as "Tyranid unit with the <Hive Fleet> keyword", so none of their abilities will affect GSC units.
I like list #3 best personally. The Tyranid detachment in the first two is going to be very CP hungry between 'stealers and Hive Guard.
Strat_N8 wrote: The Tyranid FAQ includes a bit that clarifies that every instance of "Tyranid" in the targeting rules for stratagems, warlord traits, and psychic powers should be read as "Tyranid unit with the <Hive Fleet> keyword", so none of their abilities will affect GSC units.
They included the tyranid plus <hive fleet> thing because otherwise you could put GSC units in a mixed detatchment with nids and be battleforged. There is nothing indicating the targeting rules. This is what is said:
Genestealer Cults units therefore cannot make use of
any of the rules listed in this section.
If your interpretation is correct then a kraken neuralthrope can't buff non kraken units with powers. And I've seen on streams that happening. Not that streams are the pennical of rules following but that is a rather restrictive ruling that would be know by competitors.
However I agree the wording of the blurb you are referring to is not the best. I have an open topic in YMTC should be near the top still. Please put your argument there. Because this interaction is very important for me to know starting this army.
I'm referring to the paragraph directly before that part. "Add the following section before ‘Abilities’: ‘Tyranids Units: In the rules described in this section we often refer to ‘Tyranids units’. This is shorthand for any Tyranids unit that also has the <Hive Fleet> keyword. A Tyranids Detachment is therefore one which only includes units with both the Tyranids and <Hive Fleet> keyword. "
They put this in when the Tyranid codex first dropped to prevent people from borrowing Tyranid Warlord Traits or Relics, as prior to the FAQ it did work.
Timeshadow wrote: So I have been thinking what are our best first turn shanagins?
I can think of 3 are there more?
Summon 20 Neos with 2 GL/2H Stubbers @ 9.1" and fire away. Allows chaff clearing is a huge distraction and could nail first strike (likely to give first strike as well though).
Sanctus Perfect ambush sniper shot allows 2 shots (one during your or your opps movement phase) good vs psyker heavy armies for chain reaction perils. (even better with relic rifle)
Biker Demo rush if opp is foolish enough to set up something within 20". Use drive by demo and extra explosives to make his day then drive away.
What other tricks can we pull that other armies can't?
Each of these tactics are relatively cheap (110pts or less) and can have a big impact on the game.
20 Broodbrothers that start at the front of your deployment. You cast “Psychic Stimulus” and “Might from Beyond” on them turn 1. They advance, and then advance again in the shooting phase from “Move, Move, Move!” (You need to have a IG Commander who has used his first order to “Move, Move, Move!” himself to be in range.). Then you charge the enemy screen or their scout units. Hopefully you can kill the screen and consoldated into another part of the screen. On your opponent’s Fight Phase, you will get to throw your attacks first again, since Psychic Stimulus and Might from Beyond are still active until your own Psychic Phase.
Edit: Oops, I think that the “Move, Move, Move!” order might prevent the charge, since I don’t think Psychic Stimulus will override that.
Edit #2: There is value on casting “Might from Beyond” on a blob of Broodbrothers, who are currently engaged, since you can immediately afterwards order “Fix Bayonets” on them to get a pre-Fight Phase swing with them. It would be situational, but perhaps a tactic for turns 4+, when you heavy hitters are all dead.
Yet somehow Matt Root got to #1 Tyranids player in the ITC, by doing just this. Hmmm. How did Cooper Waddell go undefeated at SoCal open with 15x Kraken Stealers + 15x Purestrains? How bout LGT where the only 2 Tyranid players to break top 16 both ran this too? This is the top of my head, you are talking about a proven strategy here that's gotten a lot of results, it seems insane to say Kraken stealers don't work.
These are old lists at a different time in a different setup. Cooper Waddell got a Swarmlord + genestealer combi with a purestrain + primus combi with the old GSC cult ambush rules. This is not an argument for GSC players to include kraken Genestealers because with the new cult ambush rules it's makes much more sense to use GSC units for mid-field domination. Also 'cooper' didn't have to deal with teleporting ork greentide + loota bomb. I played the Ork loota bomb and could kill 3 flying hive tyrants in one shooting turn. Different times man.
This doesn't make sense. Different times haven't completely changed the ability to wrap something midfield, that you said only happened if your opponent messed up, but yet was something Matt Root outright said he used all the time, this is was your argument for why Kraken stealers are bad, and this is what I disproved, talking about the new meta is just shifting the goal posts. Yes, times have changed and the Purestrains now deepstrike a bit differently, and Orkz are another new match up where Stealers aren't that great, but the fundamentals of 40k have not changed at all and 1 match up where a single unit of Stealers underperforms but is still likely to do some damage, is not a death sentence for taking a single unit of Kraken stealers that doesn't have to be maxed AND CAN DO SO MUCH vs other armies. Purestrains + Kraken stealers are two great offensive units if you want to build offensively, if you don't want to you don't have to, but it doesn't make the unit unplayable.
SHUPPET wrote: This kind of hyperbole is a big problem with the community. So many people just write something off as "impractical" because you can't guarantee it every single game. If your opponent couldn't take any midfield ground in his first turn for fear of getting wrapped by a Stealer unit, that's a massive advantage vs a lot of armies. Many times they have to try contest it and do their best to deal with Stealers in another way. If you genuinely can't find a use for a single unit of Stealers in a Nids list, that's a you problem.
A 'stay of my lawn' unit has his benefits but that doesn't win the game. If you want to make a case for kraken stealers from a GSC-player perspective then give my a list. This is about GSC tactic's so assume you are making a case for adding kraken Genestealers and not a full tyranid armylist.
I'm not making a case for anything either GSC primary or Tyranid, I have no idea the context of the list, I'm just talking about the fact that two units have different strengths. The poster in question was talking about whether Purestrains are any good when Kraken Stealers are already an option without much elaboration beyond that, and that belongs here, just as it could belong in the Tyranids thread also. I don't know much else beyond that but it's not really relevant to this argument, he wasn't asking for list feedback.
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Red Corsair wrote: it's not just 180 though. Your burning a detachment and paying for the other requirements. If you go patrol you spend less but gain zero CP and are down to 2 detachments to acquire all your CP. If you take a battalion, your now spending way more then 180. You can try to keep it cheap by taking rippers, but rippers do nothing for GSC since all our cheap stuff deepstrikes anyway. I wouldn't mind the broodlords honestly, but the patriarch is far better and again every time you take an outside detachment, that's one less patriarch you can field. So your not making much gain.
I'll keep posting it to, it does zero to help mitigate a screen for later reserves. 15 stealers aren't surviving mid table for 2 turns unless your opponent isn't concerned with them. You need swarmy to butcher a screen t1 going that route and I don't think it's worth the points or the risk of going second. Remember the kraken stuff can't be blipped so it's going to be effecting your other deployment tricks.
The other units you can bring can have their own benefits and you can go as big or small on it as you want. The point is you called that "Stealershock", which 1 unit of Stealers and 1 unit of Purestrains most definitely is not, and you also said it hasn't been doing well, even though it has. It hasn't been dominating, nothing Tyranids has been. It doesn't make either a poor unit.
Remember here - the original question was "what is the point of Purestrains when I can already take Kraken stealers?" and talking about deciding which unit is better in lists.
I mentioned that you can do both in the one list, they both bring different strengths to bear.
I'm not sure where this idea that they have to both be hitting the same turn came from, or that they need to lean on each other to have an impact. One unit of Kraken Stealers is a proven powerhouse. Both are two very strong threats to direct where you want and they do different jobs and add good offense to your list if you want that.
Yes. Most of my index lists consisted of 4 trucks of Neophytes, 2 trucks with demo Acolytes, and a trio of Rockgrinders as a starting point. One or two may die each turn, but they excel at pinning the opponent in their deployment zone and counter-act the usual issue with mass anti-infantry firepower. Taken en-mass they also aren't too bad against dedicated anti-tank, as every wound saved with rugged construction is one more shot the foe needs to make. Often by turn 3 or so I'd have a few destroyed trucks and a few mangled, but the foe was trapped in their own deployment area and I would be holding all the objectives.
I'm currently thinking of the following for an all-mech list......
I love the idea of running a mechanized list but it's going to take me some time to collect all those Goliath Truck models, they are not cheap.
I think a Kellermorph sounds pretty exciting in a Goliath Truck. I realize he won't give his reroll aura but giving the extra range and the extra protection to one of our most efficient units is enticing. Pity he can only ride with non-Neophyte units given the transport capacity.
Glad to see people floating different ideas. I like your MSU tactic with the Acolyte/Truck Cache combo providing 3 non-strat enabled demo-tosses per turn per truck.
Does anyone think there could be some value in equipping Oppressor’s Bane on someone else besides the Kelermorph? I am think that since you are going to be having a Clamavus up in your T2 ambushers, you could replace his Auto Pistol with the relic. You then have the Kelermorph fire first, kill a character or two, then have the Clamavus get the reroll 1s buff, and then kill another character. Any thoughts besides “Your wasting a CP!” Situational for sure, but the Clamavus is just sitting there holding a beer for your other characters, until he dies.
Jrandom wrote: Does anyone think there could be some value in equipping Oppressor’s Bane on someone else besides the Kelermorph? I am think that since you are going to be having a Clamavus up in your T2 ambushers, you could replace his Auto Pistol with the relic. You then have the Kelermorph fire first, kill a character or two, then have the Clamavus get the reroll 1s buff, and then kill another character. Any thoughts besides “Your wasting a CP!” Situational for sure, but the Clamavus is just sitting there holding a beer for your other characters, until he dies.
In other armies I would consider it, but I think GSC just has so many damn good relics. It's not the CP cost, it's the opportunity cost imo.
As far as my personal rankings for faction relics, I would go IG>GSC>Tyranids.
My favorites GSC being (in no specific order):
Icon of the Cult Ascendant
Amulet of the Voidwyrm (anti-Tau)
The Crouchling
Reliquary of Saint Tenndrec (Pauper Prince)
Vial of the Grandsire’s Blood (Vigilus)
I prefer force multipliers over individual buffing relics. I am just trying to find other potential uses for unpopular ones.
I think your either not being very clear or at the very least myself and it seems shogun are not following your thought process very well. I'll fully admit it could be my sleep deprived brain after the week I have had. So at this point I am going to have to see a list, even a vague outline. I am unclear as to what your suggesting as a tactic.
Because your not just getting these kraken stealers without spending points and the opportunity cost that comes with that separate detachment. I need to know how much your investing and for what purpose.
I apologize again if I am missing something I shouldn't be.
I don't get what you're really contesting in my statement? You and Shogun are both saying different things anyway so I can't address both of you at once with a single response.
Someone asked about taking Purestrains and what point they serve when Kraken stealers are probably better. I don't disagree with this (especially if you already have a Nids detachment, and they are part of the reason that makes a Nids detachment desirable as well), but pointed out that you can add Purestraiins to a list that already has Kraken stealers in it for a second aggressive unit that has a different route of offense, and that you don't need to pick between the two. A unit of each is actually a good strategy imo because it doesn't involve putting too many eggs into one approach, but it's neither here nor there. Both units are good in their own way, though you don't need to play either if you don't want.
SHUPPET wrote: Purestrains + Kraken stealers are two great offensive units if you want to build offensively, if you don't want to you don't have to, but it doesn't make the unit unplayable.
Never said they're unplayable but you only want to compare both genestealer units in a vacuum and claim that 'their both offensive and good' so why not take them both? Well that brings me to my next point ->
SHUPPET wrote: A unit of each is actually a good strategy imo because it doesn't involve putting too many eggs into one approach, but it's neither here nor there. Both units are good in their own way, though you don't need to play either if you don't want.
You can make the case that 'kraken genestealers can still be nice and are not worthless compared to purestrained Genstealers'. But if you talk about a 'good strategy' then you have to look at the complete picture. Give me a list with your complete strategy. Red and I are just asking 'how' would you use them?
SHUPPET wrote: Purestrains + Kraken stealers are two great offensive units if you want to build offensively, if you don't want to you don't have to, but it doesn't make the unit unplayable.
Never said they're unplayable but you only want to compare both genestealer units in a vacuum and claim that 'their both offensive and good' so why not take them both? Well that brings me to my next point ->
SHUPPET wrote: A unit of each is actually a good strategy imo because it doesn't involve putting too many eggs into one approach, but it's neither here nor there. Both units are good in their own way, though you don't need to play either if you don't want.
You can make the case that 'kraken genestealers can still be nice and are not worthless compared to purestrained Genstealers'. But if you talk about a 'good strategy' then you have to look at the complete picture. Give me a list with your complete strategy. Red and I are just asking 'how' would you use them?
lol wut
There is literally zero need to provide a list here. You're just looking for something you can nitpick to shreds as though it would disprove my point.
You take some Purestrains (maybe with a Clamavus who you probably already taking regardless of your approach), and you add some Kraken Genestealers to your Nid detachment if you want to take that too. This isn't a complex, or restrictive strategy. All the lists to do it in the past and find success with them, have also all differed in what they took behind it. Cooper Waddell's list took a more balanced approach behind it. One of the LGT guys just spammed Carnifexes. Whatever your playstyle or whatever tools you feel are best in your current meta can likely all fit behind it, this fact has not changed with the new options added in the dex, you still have like 80% of your points afterwards to build however you like, whether that's a focus on board control or further offense, whether its heavier on the Nids side or heavier on GSC, whether you want to use Hive Guard or Abominants or Termagant hordes or Flyrants or Jackals or a Kelermorph or whatever, the ball is in your court. Both Stealers and Purestrains have their role, and yes they can work well in tandem, I really didn't think this was such a controversial statement. At the very least I'd like to think you would agree that Kraken Stealers are not so good that Purestrains should be considered not very useful, which was what the original poster was questioning.
I haven't played much 8th so am checking for some clarifications.
If you play Cult Reinforcements, would the models you get 'back' have the same wargear, and specifically would they come back with another demo charge if you had thrown it before they were killed?
Also if you had a unit using Lurk in the Shadows, and then in front of it a <10W Character, and then another closer unit out of LOS, would that mean enemy units couldn't shoot anyone?
hangnailnz wrote: I haven't played much 8th so am checking for some clarifications.
If you play Cult Reinforcements, would the models you get 'back' have the same wargear, and specifically would they come back with another demo charge if you had thrown it before they were killed?
Also if you had a unit using Lurk in the Shadows, and then in front of it a <10W Character, and then another closer unit out of LOS, would that mean enemy units couldn't shoot anyone?
With Cult Reinforcements, you would receive new models with new demo charges.
As far as the targeting question, you are correct. There was a problem with “Rhinoscoping,” where players’ shooting lascannons would block LOS (with 2 Rhinos) to everything but a character, then nuke that chatacter. So they had to change the targeting rules, so now out-of-sight units will prevent characters from getting sniped.
Building up me Aberrants. Really nice kit, but quite the bummer we can’t do a ‘pure’ weapon loadout.
Whilst I’m not adverse to buying sufficient sets to have all Power Hammers, do you reckon peeps would object in a Tournament if they’re all ‘counts as’?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Building up me Aberrants. Really nice kit, but quite the bummer we can’t do a ‘pure’ weapon loadout.
Whilst I’m not adverse to buying sufficient sets to have all Power Hammers, do you reckon peeps would object in a Tournament if they’re all ‘counts as’?
Buy a box of Goliaths, you can easily put weapons that you have left over on those bodies or even make more with the hammers in that box.
So. New to this army and have been buying things other than troop choices cause I just have no clue which one to use. Which one do you guys think is the best? Im kinda leaning toward the shooty guys ( since blood brothers can't ride in trucks ).
UncleJetMints wrote: So. New to this army and have been buying things other than troop choices cause I just have no clue which one to use. Which one do you guys think is the best? Im kinda leaning toward the shooty guys ( since blood brothers can't ride in trucks ).
Whatever you do, don’t read through the thread here... Especially not from page 6 on.
Has anyone thought about putting a Kelermorph and A Sanctus in a Rockgrinder in a Bladed Cog hive cult? I don't one about you guys but that to me sounds pretty nasty.
so what are we thinking CP wise? better to run 3 battalions for a total of 18CP or are we thinking 1 brigade + whatever for a minimum of 15CP plus whatever the other detachment brings?
UncleJetMints wrote:So. New to this army and have been buying things other than troop choices cause I just have no clue which one to use. Which one do you guys think is the best? Im kinda leaning toward the shooty guys ( since blood brothers can't ride in trucks ).
All three have their uses. Acolytes and Neophytes are your front-line troops while Brood Brothers serve as backfield fire support for ambush enabling. Broadly speaking the Neophytes are your anti-infantry troops while Acolytes are more your anti-armor troops. Both can also do a bit of each other's roles, but in general you'll want to have the Neophytes handle opposing light infantry while Acolytes go for vehicles, monsters, and heavy troops.
For mech you should be well served with a mix of Acolytes and Neophytes (roughly a 1-for-1 body ratio, though Acolytes can be run as five-man units to save transport space for characters). The Brood Brothers are more for ambush-centric lists that need cheap back-field fodder to hold down the fort while the tunnellers go to work.
Odrankt wrote: Has anyone thought about putting a Kelermorph and A Sanctus in a Rockgrinder in a Bladed Cog hive cult? I don't one about you guys but that to me sounds pretty nasty.
Maybe. What is the general strategy intended for such cargo and load-out on the Sanctus? Why Bladed Cog specifically?
ghost23 wrote:so what are we thinking CP wise? better to run 3 battalions for a total of 18CP or are we thinking 1 brigade + whatever for a minimum of 15CP plus whatever the other detachment brings?
I think its going to depend heavily on what creed you are using coupled with the overall army composition. A list with a lot of jackals and/or vehicles generally won't be as CP hungry as one making use of mass ambush tactics. Bladed Cog, Hive Cult, and Pauper Princes should also be less CP hungry than Four-Armed Emperor, Twisted Helix, or Rusted Claw due to the unique stratagems of the former having more situational triggers and lower costs than the stratagems of the latter (or in the case of Rusted Claw less need to combo with other stratagems).
I think the Brigade is going to mainly be the purview of Rusted Claw or Hivecult since they already want to take things from the Fast Attack and Heavy Support slots while the others are mostly content with HQ, Troops, and Elites.
ghost23 wrote: so what are we thinking CP wise? better to run 3 battalions for a total of 18CP or are we thinking 1 brigade + whatever for a minimum of 15CP plus whatever the other detachment brings?
Considering most armies have a hurdle of filling the 3 Elite/Fast/Heavy/HQ and we are so hungry for just those slots it is actually really efficient using a brigade plus a battalion. I built nearly the same list using 3 battalions and a Brigade + Battalion and lo and behold it worked very easily into the latter gaining 2 CP in the process. The only reason to not use a Bregade is if you want multiple Cult creeds and/or allied Brood Brother/AM or Tyranids.
Strat_N8 wrote: Could possibly convert the third detachment into a battalion by adding a Magus and shuffling around some points to get three shotgun Neophyte squads for screening. Alternatively there are sufficient points for a pair of Rockgrinders, an Aberrant squad, two 10-strong Acolyte Squads for ambushing, or perhaps a few Jackal units (I think should be able to squeeze in 3-4 basic squads with demolition charges).
I like your list and am curious to see its future iterations. I'd just like to point out that a you don't need 3 new troops for the third Bat, provided you go mono-cult as you seem to intend, just move the 4th Aco squad of your first batallions to the third one. You just need 1 HQ 1 Troop to fill it up
I have been thinking about rock cutters and rock drills, and the mechanics seem quite different. The rockdrill mortal wounds kick in at the end of resolving all of the rock drill wounds, so if you are lucky, a wounded model is standing there to get some mortal wounds dumped on it (apparently 2.77 on average), but only one model, as the rest of the models wounded by rockdrills are dead. Output up to 9 wounds (4 single wounds and up to 5 mortal...) Would make most vehicles feel pretty sick.
The rock cutter however is less accurate, but each time you put some wounds on a model, you also have a chance for the extra wounds to kick in - assuming that you have found some models who survive the d3 wounds, they are likely to get snuffed by the special rule. So if per chance you found a unit of models with 4w, you could potentially kill one with every hit. No good for vehicles - although actually you could still do up to 12w to one if everything hits and wounds, but against strong multi-wound models, the cutters really shine.
On another tangent, it looks like there are no rules for 'Scout' moving blips, which unless it gets errata'd means that you would have to set up Scouts first in order to redeploy them...
I think that rock drills and rock cutters should be cheaper to compete with the rock saw. The saw seems to be just more reliable in dealing wounds and is also much cheaper.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Building up me Aberrants. Really nice kit, but quite the bummer we can’t do a ‘pure’ weapon loadout.
Whilst I’m not adverse to buying sufficient sets to have all Power Hammers, do you reckon peeps would object in a Tournament if they’re all ‘counts as’?
It might not be "pure", but I managed to do 4 hammers and an improvised weapon by cutting the head off 2 picks an replacing them with a spare thunder hammer and the Hypermorph's hammer.
On another tangent, it looks like there are no rules for 'Scout' moving blips, which unless it gets errata'd means that you would have to set up Scouts first in order to redeploy them...
Thoughts?
That is a good catch. You are right, you would have to set them up in non-blip form.
On another tangent, it looks like there are no rules for 'Scout' moving blips, which unless it gets errata'd means that you would have to set up Scouts first in order to redeploy them...
Thoughts?
That is a good catch. You are right, you would have to set them up in non-blip form.
Yep, it is a real bummer too, since it is another solid point against the Achilles. In my list, using its scout move gives away which of my blocks of blips is the alphus' bubble o' shooting and which is the patriarch and co.
So I'll most likely be running it with the spotter and hoping to be in range turn 1 without having to move.
I've spent too much time over the past fortnight agonising over this, and this is the best I can come up with - a 7th Edition army with all the MSUs combined. I can't see GSC working any other way. On the plus side it has 160-odd models. The problem is if I want to run it I have to paint 160+ models.
Twisted Helix Batallion (Broodsurge) + HQ + Acolyte Iconward (Field Commander, Augur of the Insurgent) Broodcoven Primus (Warlord Trait: Alien Majesty)
C4AE Battalion + HQ + Broodcoven Magus (Mass Hypnosis, Mind Control, Psychic Stimulus; The Crouchling, Shadow Stalker) Patriarch (Warlord; Mass Hypnosis, Mind Control; Amulet of the Voidwyrm, Preternatural Speed)
+ Troops + 10 Neophyte Hybrids, 2 Webbers, Seismic Cannon, Web Pistol 10 Neophyte Hybrids, 2 Webbers, Seismic Cannon, Web Pistol 10 Neophyte Hybrids, 2 Webbers, Seismic Cannon, Web Pistol
Army Stratagems: Broodcoven, Grandsire's Gifts (1 Extra Relic)
1749pts
14 (18) CP
At first I was trying to build something that'd work with the 50% units and points on the table at the start thing, but I quickly got annoyed with that so I'm planning to deploy some of my tunnelers to bump myself over the limit and just use They Came From Below to yoink them at the start of my first turn.
EDIT: In general the Twisted Helix dudes plus the Primus, the Patriarch and the two Iconwards are my Ambushers, but I think there's room to send the Neophytes underground and do some Psychic Stimulus shenanigans if an opportunity presents (i.e. if someone Scouts at me or there's otherwise an opportunity to slingshot CC units across the board).
Webbers are for Flyers, Seismic Cannons are for whatever, Morphs are there to charge stuff that always fights first and to eat shots for the Acolytes.
C4AE - For the "Agents of Deathleaper" Strat. I'm guessing the Magus is going to be the only model left from this Detachment by turn 5.
Bladed Cog - Makes the Neophyte heavy weapons Relentless. 4+ to hit sucks enough as it is, it doesn't need to be worse.
Twisted Helix - Contains all the CC units. Self explanatory.
Manticore [8 PL, 135pts]: Heavy Bolter, Heavy Stubber
Manticore [8 PL, 135pts]: Heavy Bolter, Heavy Stubber
Manticore [8 PL, 135pts]: Heavy Bolter, Heavy Stubber
CP Total: 14+1d3 (-2 for Pre-Game)
This is my FAQ-Safe list. All the GSC are in the tunnels, except the Nexos (who will not be a blip, to farm the T1 CPs.) The Primaris will be with the bugs, who will be flooding the middle of the board. The Tervigon is there to draw fire from the Manticores (at -2 to be hit). I could substitute the Magus for an Icon Bearer, to go Vigilus, but it would cost me 2+1d3 CPs. The Patriarch has the partial Knight hunting kit (+1 LD from the Clam & +1 LD from Primus, -2 LD from the Primaris.). First he Mind Controls it, then at the end of the turn, he pops the familiar to take the Knight down.
FAQ is up - Mental Onslaught got clarified in a way to make it even stronger...
Q: If a model suffers a mortal wound as a result of the Mental Onslaught psychic power, but then does not lose a wound due to an ability such as Disgustingly Resilient, does the Mental Onslaught power continue?
A: Yes.
GW didn't even get half of the broken gak with the faq.
GSC are a solid part of the competitive meta now until they get a nerfbat. I just hope it's to the wonky unintentional BS stuff instead of the actually fluffy parts of the codex.
Locus "not-heroically intervene" Lying in Wait combo unaffected.
20-man BB infantry squads deep striking with Tempestus Primes and FRFSRF unaffected.
Mental onslaught combo unaffected and left totally the same.
Oof. Can't wait for these to become so widely used that nobody wants to play against GSC anymore.
Mining laser is D6 damage, damn that's good for 12 points. Not sure I actually need to take swarms of assaulters anymore.
Lying in wait flamer bomb from summoning was hit.
Our best deep strikng unit by a a mile is now ordered brood bros. 80 shots for 80 points at 12". So I can get 160 shots for the same price as an acolyte flamer unit only I don't need to waste my CP or that stratagem and I not only average 5 more hits, I also get 40 t3 wounds rather then 20.
Got enough games under my belt with the new codex to get a good understanding of it.
I feel like our shooting game got WAY better, thanks to the Alphus and Kelermorph. The Ridgerunner w/ HML + Spotter has proven surprisingly good for its cost. I park it near the Alphus and it acts like a small pseudo Las-Pred.
The only problem I regularly encounter is that my ambushing Acolytes and Aberrants are out of range of my fire support. My ML Neophytes sit in their Goliaths but those often get blown to bits, which makes it hard for them to move up quick enough that they can reach their targets with their 24" weapons...
Which makes my eyes wander over to the Guard for some help. Is the Basilisk any good? It's cheaper than a Russ and it can hit its targets anywhere on the board.
Red Corsair wrote: Mining laser is D6 damage, damn that's good for 12 points. Not sure I actually need to take swarms of assaulters anymore.
Lying in wait flamer bomb from summoning was hit.
Our best deep strikng unit by a a mile is now ordered brood bros. 80 shots for 80 points at 12". So I can get 160 shots for the same price as an acolyte flamer unit only I don't need to waste my CP or that stratagem and I not only average 5 more hits, I also get 40 t3 wounds rather then 20.
So.....unless you want to take mining lasers or run mechanized with trucks is there any reason to take Neophytes over Brood Brothers?
Causalis wrote: Got enough games under my belt with the new codex to get a good understanding of it.
I feel like our shooting game got WAY better, thanks to the Alphus and Kelermorph. The Ridgerunner w/ HML + Spotter has proven surprisingly good for its cost. I park it near the Alphus and it acts like a small pseudo Las-Pred.
The only problem I regularly encounter is that my ambushing Acolytes and Aberrants are out of range of my fire support. My ML Neophytes sit in their Goliaths but those often get blown to bits, which makes it hard for them to move up quick enough that they can reach their targets with their 24" weapons...
Which makes my eyes wander over to the Guard for some help. Is the Basilisk any good? It's cheaper than a Russ and it can hit its targets anywhere on the board.
If you take guard just take a supreme command and max out tempester primes with command rods and tank commanders. You don't lose out on any CP and you get the best units from guard to fill holes.
Red Corsair wrote: Mining laser is D6 damage, damn that's good for 12 points. Not sure I actually need to take swarms of assaulters anymore.
Lying in wait flamer bomb from summoning was hit.
Our best deep strikng unit by a a mile is now ordered brood bros. 80 shots for 80 points at 12". So I can get 160 shots for the same price as an acolyte flamer unit only I don't need to waste my CP or that stratagem and I not only average 5 more hits, I also get 40 t3 wounds rather then 20.
So.....unless you want to take mining lasers or run mechanized with trucks is there any reason to take Neophytes over Brood Brothers?
The short answer is no, the long answer is nooooooooooo.
If you listen closely, you can hear the sound of every competitive player with an imperium army currently running out and buying 10 aberrants and an abominant and slapping them onto their existing army.
RearAdmiralSnuffles wrote: So, what is the verdict on the locus heroic intervention during our own turn?
Is it legal now that the FAQ hasn't mentioned it?
IMO, seems fairly clear.
Locus' rule states "In the charge phase, after opponent has made any charge moves."
"Any" can include "none" otherwise the FAQ change to Heroic Intervention rule would not have been needed, and you could prevent your opponent from using Heroic Intervention in your turn by not declaring any charges.
Therefore because GW was dumb, The Locus' Bespoke Rule that is not Heroic Intervention does not fall under the FAQ change to Heroic Intervention, and he can use it on his own turn.
Red Corsair wrote: Mining laser is D6 damage, damn that's good for 12 points. Not sure I actually need to take swarms of assaulters anymore.
Lying in wait flamer bomb from summoning was hit.
Our best deep strikng unit by a a mile is now ordered brood bros. 80 shots for 80 points at 12". So I can get 160 shots for the same price as an acolyte flamer unit only I don't need to waste my CP or that stratagem and I not only average 5 more hits, I also get 40 t3 wounds rather then 20.
So.....unless you want to take mining lasers or run mechanized with trucks is there any reason to take Neophytes over Brood Brothers?
Couple reasons. They have the <cult> keyword meaning they gain all the auras. They also get the cult traits. They also have access to the best special and HW. You need some of your stuff on the table. All that to me is enough of a distinction to make neos still worth while. I wouldn't call someone crazy though for just move move moving 60 of the guys out their deployment to blanket the table. Keep in mind that tactic occupies space well but they still die in droves.
I will still run lots of neos in 10 man squads with maxed guns. Probably 5 squads with grenade launchers and ML's, and another 5 squads with webbers and HS for 100 total. Then I will ambush 2-3 brood brother units, both 20 strong with a tempester prime so I can rinse the enemy with shots on the flank I need to breach.
Huh, they upgraded Mining Lasers to D6 from D3, without any other changes, making them even better.
And they changed that A Plan Generations in the Making to one use:
Page 112 – A Plan Generations in the Making Add the following sentence: ‘You can only use this Stratagem once per battle.’
Designer’s Note: This publication went to print before the changes to the Drukhari Stratagem ‘Agents of Vect’ were made. To make this Stratagem different whilst still maintaining game balance, we have decided to make this Stratagem one use only rather than increasing the Command Point cost.
Red Corsair wrote: Mining laser is D6 damage, damn that's good for 12 points. Not sure I actually need to take swarms of assaulters anymore.
Lying in wait flamer bomb from summoning was hit.
Our best deep strikng unit by a a mile is now ordered brood bros. 80 shots for 80 points at 12". So I can get 160 shots for the same price as an acolyte flamer unit only I don't need to waste my CP or that stratagem and I not only average 5 more hits, I also get 40 t3 wounds rather then 20.
So.....unless you want to take mining lasers or run mechanized with trucks is there any reason to take Neophytes over Brood Brothers?
Couple reasons. They have the <cult> keyword meaning they gain all the auras. They also get the cult traits. They also have access to the best special and HW. You need some of your stuff on the table. All that to me is enough of a distinction to make neos still worth while. I wouldn't call someone crazy though for just move move moving 60 of the guys out their deployment to blanket the table. Keep in mind that tactic occupies space well but they still die in droves.
I will still run lots of neos in 10 man squads with maxed guns. Probably 5 squads with grenade launchers and ML's, and another 5 squads with webbers and HS for 100 total. Then I will ambush 2-3 brood brother units, both 20 strong with a tempester prime so I can rinse the enemy with shots on the flank I need to breach.
Good points!
Rusted Claw will make those neophytes harder to dig out and man that damage on the mining laser is scary.
I would also like to point out that the locus has a 6 inch -1 ld aura. This is an extra easy piece for the MO wombo combo. Bladed Cog locus, here I come
Do we have anything in our extended alliance that occupies board space turn 1 like space marine scouts? Ratlings and sentinels are options but would be denied if scouts are placed
Acolyte Hybrids: Cult Icon
. 5x Acolyte Hybrid
. 5x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 5x Hand Flamer
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Drill
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Drill
. Acolyte Leader: Bonesword, Hand Flamer
Acolyte Hybrids: Cult Icon
. 10x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 10x Hand Flamer
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Drill
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Drill
. Acolyte Leader: Bonesword, Hand Flamer
Acolyte Hybrids: Cult Icon
. 10x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 10x Hand Flamer
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Drill
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Drill
. Acolyte Leader: Bonesword, Hand Flamer
Acolyte Hybrids: Cult Icon
. 10x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 10x Hand Flamer
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Drill
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Drill
. Acolyte Leader: Bonesword, Hand Flamer
Acolyte Hybrids: Cult Icon
. 10x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 10x Hand Flamer
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Drill
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Drill
. Acolyte Leader: Bonesword, Hand Flamer
Jarval wrote: FAQ is up - Mental Onslaught got clarified in a way to make it even stronger...
Q: If a model suffers a mortal wound as a result of the Mental Onslaught psychic power, but then does not lose a wound due to an ability such as Disgustingly Resilient, does the Mental Onslaught power continue?
A: Yes.
Nexos
5x Aberrants, 4 hammers 1 improvised weapon
Locus
Clamavus
3x5 Jackals
3x3 Mortar Teams
Brood Brothers Spearhead
Tempestor Prime with Rod
Tempestor Prime with Rod
Wyvern
Wyvern
Wyvern
You get 21CP to play with, so after youve deleted the entirety of the enemy's screen turn 1 you perfect ambush your acolytes/aberrants in and smash the most important heavy target on the board. You've got a +3 Mental Onslaught power in there as well. If the enemy has loads of medium infantry/vehicles you can just flood the board with super resilient guard bodies and bog down to victory.
Designed to fight current imperial soup lists, tau lists, Drukhari coven spam, nurgle/ork hordes, designed to try and outlast drukhari venomspam and marine gunlines.
Maybe a bit over the top with antichaff, but I'm figuring around 100 guardsmen on average in an imp soup list and 100-150 ork/nurgle bodies in their respective lists. Also lasguns/mortars/wyverns are more efficient weapons against venoms and raiders than lascannons anyway.
Page 113 – Mental Onslaught
Change the fourth sentence to read:
‘If your score is higher, the enemy model’s unit suffers 1 mortal wound; if the selected model is still alive you then repeat this process (each player rolling a D6 and adding their respective Leadership) until either the selected model loses 6 wounds, is destroyed, or you fail to inflict 1 mortal wound by having a score higher than your opponent’s.
Q: If I successfully manifest the Mind Control psychic power and select an enemy model to shoot, how does that model target enemy Characters?
A: Apply the Targeting Characters rule and treat the shooting model as part of your army in your Shooting phase in relation to this rule
Q: How is the Mass Hypnosis psychic power resolved against
enemy units that have an ability such as Quicksilver Swiftness, which allows them to always fight first (excluding as a result of making a charge move this turn)?
A: Whilst the psychic power is in effect, such units are treated as if they do not have that ability, are not required to fight last and have not charged (although the controlling player must still subtract 1 from that unit’s hit rolls).
That's incredibly confusing. I don't see that FAQ change to mental onslaught on their page. Looks like multiple versions went out. Will have to see what happens when the dust settles
god I hope so. Removing the madness of completely open ended mental onslaught is the last thing in the codex that is broken that's tied to actual GSC models. I don't care if they nerf BB's to high heaven, just keep the GSC bit of the army from being ridiculous and maybe I'll be able to keep playing the army.
The mental onslaught power seems more balanced this way. Still powerful, but not 'build a list round it' powerful. One-shotting knights and super heavies was a bit silly, but you can still happily melt a character's brain if you scare them enough. It really hit our anti-flyer potential though. We have so few ways of dealing with flyers...
Is there anything to stop me taking 6 units of mortars? 3 from the AM dex and 3 from the 'brood brothers heavy weapons team' datasheet.
DoomMouse wrote: The mental onslaught power seems more balanced this way. Still powerful, but not 'build a list round it' powerful. One-shotting knights and super heavies was a bit silly, but you can still happily melt a character's brain if you scare them enough.
Is there anything to stop me taking 6 units of mortars? 3 from the AM dex and 3 from the 'brood brothers heavy weapons team' datasheet.
Nothing at all. Go nuts.
Hey guys remember when earlier in the edition we had to nerf Guard/every faction because Guard could take a million mortar teams and huge cheap order-able conscript squads? Well we released that back into the game, but this time with army wide deep strike for free and BS4+.
So, apparently mental onslaught didn't get nerved in the faq (current stand based on their reply on fb). So we can happily keep on dreaming about one-shotting knights.
Jorim wrote: So, apparently mental onslaught didn't get nerved in the faq (current stand based on their reply on fb). So we can happily keep on dreaming about one-shotting knights.
It's not just a dream. I had it happen to me (although it wasn't my knight - just a support psyker, as I was playing GSC myself vs (surprise!) GSC. You have to commit for it and if it doesn't go off, that character is likely boned.
EDIT: confirmed by GW employees that mental onslaught is not changing.....until maybe the March FAQ
Nexos
5x Aberrants, 4 hammers 1 improvised weapon
Locus
Clamavus
3x5 Jackals
3x3 Mortar Teams
Brood Brothers Spearhead
Tempestor Prime with Rod
Tempestor Prime with Rod
Wyvern
Wyvern
Wyvern
You get 21CP to play with, so after youve deleted the entirety of the enemy's screen turn 1 you perfect ambush your acolytes/aberrants in and smash the most important heavy target on the board. You've got a +3 Mental Onslaught power in there as well. If the enemy has loads of medium infantry/vehicles you can just flood the board with super resilient guard bodies and bog down to victory.
Designed to fight current imperial soup lists, tau lists, Drukhari coven spam, nurgle/ork hordes, designed to try and outlast drukhari venomspam and marine gunlines.
Maybe a bit over the top with antichaff, but I'm figuring around 100 guardsmen on average in an imp soup list and 100-150 ork/nurgle bodies in their respective lists. Also lasguns/mortars/wyverns are more efficient weapons against venoms and raiders than lascannons anyway.
I am not seeing that list doing as well as your thinking against the match ups your suggesting. You have one patriarch to provide fearless on ~150 guys. You also have zero scouting models, your gona struggle dropping in 120+ models on turn 2+ against anyone with a competitive list. I also don't see how your chewing through that many bodies in those lists you suggested.
DoomMouse wrote: The mental onslaught power seems more balanced this way. Still powerful, but not 'build a list round it' powerful. One-shotting knights and super heavies was a bit silly, but you can still happily melt a character's brain if you scare them enough.
Is there anything to stop me taking 6 units of mortars? 3 from the AM dex and 3 from the 'brood brothers heavy weapons team' datasheet.
Nothing at all. Go nuts.
Hey guys remember when earlier in the edition we had to nerf Guard/every faction because Guard could take a million mortar teams and huge cheap order-able conscript squads? Well we released that back into the game, but this time with army wide deep strike for free and BS4+.
Yea but back then less then half the books were out. What would make more sense to me is to walk back those earlier nerfs a bit. Brood brothers are very efficient, but they die like farts in a breeze to some of the current lists in the meta.
Hey guys remember when earlier in the edition we had to nerf Guard/every faction because Guard could take a million mortar teams and huge cheap order-able conscript squads? Well we released that back into the game, but this time with army wide deep strike for free and BS4+.
Any of the rules wizards have anything to say on the possibility of T1 deepstrike with the new FAQ:
ERRATA
Page 79 – Cult Ambush
Add the following sentence:
‘Matched Play: In matched play, units set up in ambush using
this rule do not count as reinforcements and count as being set
up on the battlefield for the purposes of Tactical Reserves.’
So it appears to me that if we use the "They Came From Below..." stratagem then we get 3 units that get around the new "Tactical Reserve" Rules from the November Big FAQ.
Since they were put Underground from being set-up on the table, ie. they started on the table, not in reserve.
There are arguments breaking out about this all over social media...so why not here too. If you're really sharp on the rules I'd appreciate your interpretation here.
Infantry squads, mortars and brood bros set up on the board clustered around the psychic warlord patriarch. Then turn 2 start landing hammer blows from the acolytes - 20 of them pop up backfield for hand flamer and demo charge shenanigans. 20 have just claws to clear some chaff or elite infantry and 2 have rock saws for cutting down knights or big things.
Twisted helix bat 709pts
HQ Patriarch 137 with familiar (crouchling) – mental onslaught + mass hypnosis + Might from beyond – 137pts WARLORD
Magus 92 with familiar – mind control + might from beyond – 92pts
Troops
20 brood brothers – 80pts
20 brood brothers – 80pts
20 brood brothers – 80pts
20 brood brothers – 80pts
20 brood brothers – 80pts
20 brood brothers – 80pts
Twisted helix bat (deliverance broodsurge) 633pts
HQ Iconward 53pts (re-roll charges)
Patriarch 125pts (helix relic)
Troops
20 acolytes – hand flamers and 5 demo charges - 185pts
10 acolytes – 4 rock saws and icon 120pts
10 acolytes – 4 rock saws and icon 120pts
20 acolytes – icon
Brood bros 544pts
HQ Company commander 30pts
Company commander 30pts
Tempestor prime with rod 45pts
Elites
Astropath with maelstrom 26pts
Astropath with terrify 26pts
Troops
Infantry squad, plasma, bolter 48pts
Infantry squad, plasma, bolter 48pts
Infantry squad, plasma, bolter 48pts
Infantry squad, plasma, bolter 48pts
Infantry squad, plasma, bolter 48pts
Infantry squad, plasma, bolter 48pts
Heavy
3 mortars 33pts
3 mortars 33pts
3 mortars 33pts
I dislike them not touching the mental onslaught. It didn't work as well vs Casteleans which can be screened pretty easy seems to be the only Knight people play anymore but makes all the close combat ones useless for the most part. Irritating that any transport is now pretty much useless as well. If they try to close in to drop in a squad they die. Sigh. All other superheavies remain nigh-unplayable.
Caspian89 wrote: Any of the rules wizards have anything to say on the possibility of T1 deepstrike with the new FAQ:
ERRATA
Page 79 – Cult Ambush
Add the following sentence:
‘Matched Play: In matched play, units set up in ambush using
this rule do not count as reinforcements and count as being set
up on the battlefield for the purposes of Tactical Reserves.’
So it appears to me that if we use the "They Came From Below..." stratagem then we get 3 units that get around the new "Tactical Reserve" Rules from the November Big FAQ.
Since they were put Underground from being set-up on the table, ie. they started on the table, not in reserve.
There are arguments breaking out about this all over social media...so why not here too. If you're really sharp on the rules I'd appreciate your interpretation here.
Jorim wrote: So, apparently mental onslaught didn't get nerved in the faq (current stand based on their reply on fb). So we can happily keep on dreaming about one-shotting knights.
It's not just a dream. I had it happen to me (although it wasn't my knight - just a support psyker, as I was playing GSC myself vs (surprise!) GSC. You have to commit for it and if it doesn't go off, that character is likely boned.
EDIT: confirmed by GW employees that mental onslaught is not changing.....until maybe the March FAQ
It's changed on the FAQ on the Community website - though not on the FAQ linked in the email - maximum six wounds.
I lost an unhurt Leviathan dreadnought to the power immediately after mind control made it flatten a daemon prince. Sad day. But I was looking forward to getting gung ho with it when I was the caster.
Jorim wrote: So, apparently mental onslaught didn't get nerved in the faq (current stand based on their reply on fb). So we can happily keep on dreaming about one-shotting knights.
It's not just a dream. I had it happen to me (although it wasn't my knight - just a support psyker, as I was playing GSC myself vs (surprise!) GSC. You have to commit for it and if it doesn't go off, that character is likely boned.
EDIT: confirmed by GW employees that mental onslaught is not changing.....until maybe the March FAQ
It's changed on the FAQ on the Community website - though not on the FAQ linked in the email - maximum six wounds.
I lost an unhurt Leviathan dreadnought to the power immediately after mind control made it flatten a daemon prince. Sad day. But I was looking forward to getting gung ho with it when I was the caster.
Niiai wrote: Wait, are IG weaponteams with mortals cheaper then ouers?
GSC pay 2 more points for a mortar for some reason.
But you can still have 18 mortars for 216 points. Seems... reasonable. Going to be hard to LOS block that many - but with 48" they can sit right at the back.
I feel brood brothers are being set up for sweeping nerfs although maybe GW won't care.
Infantry squads, mortars and brood bros set up on the board clustered around the psychic warlord patriarch. Then turn 2 start landing hammer blows from the acolytes - 20 of them pop up backfield for hand flamer and demo charge shenanigans. 20 have just claws to clear some chaff or elite infantry and 2 have rock saws for cutting down knights or big things.
Twisted helix bat 709pts
HQ Patriarch 137 with familiar (crouchling) – mental onslaught + mass hypnosis + Might from beyond – 137pts WARLORD
Magus 92 with familiar – mind control + might from beyond – 92pts
Troops
20 brood brothers – 80pts
20 brood brothers – 80pts
20 brood brothers – 80pts
20 brood brothers – 80pts
20 brood brothers – 80pts
20 brood brothers – 80pts
Twisted helix bat (deliverance broodsurge) 633pts
HQ Iconward 53pts (re-roll charges)
Patriarch 125pts (helix relic)
Troops
20 acolytes – hand flamers and 5 demo charges - 185pts
10 acolytes – 4 rock saws and icon 120pts
10 acolytes – 4 rock saws and icon 120pts
20 acolytes – icon
Brood bros 544pts
HQ Company commander 30pts
Company commander 30pts
Tempestor prime with rod 45pts
Elites
Astropath with maelstrom 26pts
Astropath with terrify 26pts
Troops
Infantry squad, plasma, bolter 48pts
Infantry squad, plasma, bolter 48pts
Infantry squad, plasma, bolter 48pts
Infantry squad, plasma, bolter 48pts
Infantry squad, plasma, bolter 48pts
Infantry squad, plasma, bolter 48pts
Heavy
3 mortars 33pts
3 mortars 33pts
3 mortars 33pts
Not really a fan of this for the reasons I gave on scottsmans. Your relying on table space, if they scout or use fliers your not coming in turn 2. You can run run run the guard detachment, but keep in mind that entire force cannot blip or trick deploy. They will be at the whim of your opponent.
It's not bad, I just think it is too heavy on GEQ again. Just mindlessly spamming them won't win you the game against some of the savage lists out there.
I'd at least switch the first detachment to 4AE, none of the guys barring the magus benefit from a creed, so may as well get the counter spell strat.
Infantry squads, mortars and brood bros set up on the board clustered around the psychic warlord patriarch. Then turn 2 start landing hammer blows from the acolytes - 20 of them pop up backfield for hand flamer and demo charge shenanigans. 20 have just claws to clear some chaff or elite infantry and 2 have rock saws for cutting down knights or big things.
LIST
Not really a fan of this for the reasons I gave on scottsmans. Your relying on table space, if they scout or use fliers your not coming in turn 2. You can run run run the guard detachment, but keep in mind that entire force cannot blip or trick deploy. They will be at the whim of your opponent.
It's not bad, I just think it is too heavy on GEQ again. Just mindlessly spamming them won't win you the game against some of the savage lists out there.
I'd at least switch the first detachment to 4AE, none of the guys barring the magus benefit from a creed, so may as well get the counter spell strat.
Thanks for the input! Not sure how scouts and flyers are particularly any worse for this than any GSC list though? I've got enough anti infantry to clear up most scouts turn 1. We have no real answer for flyers, but with 240+ models I think I could just ignore them and play objectives (maybe down one or two with mental onslaught/smites/psychic maelstrom) This list at least has the flamer-demo-bomb that can drop 3" away to unleash the hurt, and a full 160-shot brood brother bomb to unleash turn 2 to further clear chaff.
I'm not overly sold on the trick-deploy deployment myself. I'd rather just use the more efficient troops that can move-move-move and FRFSRF.
Good call on the 4AE creed though. no real reason not to, and the magus can just use powers on enemies and the brood bros.
Infantry squads, mortars and brood bros set up on the board clustered around the psychic warlord patriarch. Then turn 2 start landing hammer blows from the acolytes - 20 of them pop up backfield for hand flamer and demo charge shenanigans. 20 have just claws to clear some chaff or elite infantry and 2 have rock saws for cutting down knights or big things.
LIST
Not really a fan of this for the reasons I gave on scottsmans. Your relying on table space, if they scout or use fliers your not coming in turn 2. You can run run run the guard detachment, but keep in mind that entire force cannot blip or trick deploy. They will be at the whim of your opponent.
It's not bad, I just think it is too heavy on GEQ again. Just mindlessly spamming them won't win you the game against some of the savage lists out there.
I'd at least switch the first detachment to 4AE, none of the guys barring the magus benefit from a creed, so may as well get the counter spell strat.
Thanks for the input! Not sure how scouts and flyers are particularly any worse for this than any GSC list though? I've got enough anti infantry to clear up most scouts turn 1. We have no real answer for flyers, but with 240+ models I think I could just ignore them and play objectives (maybe down one or two with mental onslaught/smites/psychic maelstrom) This list at least has the flamer-demo-bomb that can drop 3" away to unleash the hurt, and a full 160-shot brood brother bomb to unleash turn 2 to further clear chaff.
I'm not overly sold on the trick-deploy deployment myself. I'd rather just use the more efficient troops that can move-move-move and FRFSRF.
Good call on the 4AE creed though. no real reason not to, and the magus can just use powers on enemies and the brood bros.
When I say scouts I don't necessarily mean literal scouts, that's my bad. It's a lazy way of saying anything that can zone you back. So eldar fliers, nurglings, sentinels, skitarii dragons from stygiis 8 etc etc. I was assuming you were planning on dropping in the 20 strong BB squads from reserve, but maybe you had other ideas.
EDIT
Either way, make sure you share your game with it and any findings. I just have a feeling certain armies will take advantage of that guard section that needs to awkwardly standard deploy around a few blips, and won't have the right guns to drop certain advancing units. I suppose you could just deploy everyone and use orders, but you will need platoon commanders to havbe enough orders and I am not sure how easy deploying that high model count will be. You may movement block yourself
There was a big ITC tournament recently so I’ve had nothing to practice my GSC with but people tweaking their tourney lists. Played against ork loota bombs, Ynnari spam, a couple copy/paste knight lists, and some other assorted hardcore nonsense. Among my assorted musings:
We need a LOT of chaff clearing for a reserve heavy list to work. The bubble wrap is insane in ITC when you don’t have to really care about objectives and can play a parking lot. Reaching IG artillery and Ork loota blobs means wading through a lot of stuff. I’d replace every pistol on acolytes with flamers and run 3 mortar squads as a baseline army composition.
GSC vehicles are going to die turn 1. The sentinels might survive to turn 2, but Goliaths, Rockgrinders, and Ridgerunners are getting iced. Your only hope is squeezing them behind LOS terrain, but they’re not doing much good there. Taking vehicles means running a Mad Max horde or hoping for turn 1.
Running a boots on the ground horde can work if you’re fast enough. Broodsurge Twisted Helix acolytes can cover a lot of ground and get reliable turn 2 charges off with the right support. But you still have to go overboard on the chaff clearers and not get all your assaulters tangled up in pointless battles with scouts.
I’ll be glad to practice lists on something that isn’t another awful ITC army now, but it was definitely good experience.
It intercepts after a failed save but BEFORE damage, meaning it turns an entire Lascannon hit into one dead friendly model, regardless of what the damage roll would've been?
Nexos
5x Aberrants, 4 hammers 1 improvised weapon
Locus
Clamavus
3x5 Jackals
3x3 Mortar Teams
Brood Brothers Spearhead
Tempestor Prime with Rod
Tempestor Prime with Rod
Wyvern
Wyvern
Wyvern
You get 21CP to play with, so after youve deleted the entirety of the enemy's screen turn 1 you perfect ambush your acolytes/aberrants in and smash the most important heavy target on the board. You've got a +3 Mental Onslaught power in there as well. If the enemy has loads of medium infantry/vehicles you can just flood the board with super resilient guard bodies and bog down to victory.
Designed to fight current imperial soup lists, tau lists, Drukhari coven spam, nurgle/ork hordes, designed to try and outlast drukhari venomspam and marine gunlines.
Maybe a bit over the top with antichaff, but I'm figuring around 100 guardsmen on average in an imp soup list and 100-150 ork/nurgle bodies in their respective lists. Also lasguns/mortars/wyverns are more efficient weapons against venoms and raiders than lascannons anyway.
I am not seeing that list doing as well as your thinking against the match ups your suggesting. You have one patriarch to provide fearless on ~150 guys. You also have zero scouting models, your gona struggle dropping in 120+ models on turn 2+ against anyone with a competitive list. I also don't see how your chewing through that many bodies in those lists you suggested.
DoomMouse wrote: The mental onslaught power seems more balanced this way. Still powerful, but not 'build a list round it' powerful. One-shotting knights and super heavies was a bit silly, but you can still happily melt a character's brain if you scare them enough.
Is there anything to stop me taking 6 units of mortars? 3 from the AM dex and 3 from the 'brood brothers heavy weapons team' datasheet.
Nothing at all. Go nuts.
Hey guys remember when earlier in the edition we had to nerf Guard/every faction because Guard could take a million mortar teams and huge cheap order-able conscript squads? Well we released that back into the game, but this time with army wide deep strike for free and BS4+.
Yea but back then less then half the books were out. What would make more sense to me is to walk back those earlier nerfs a bit. Brood brothers are very efficient, but they die like farts in a breeze to some of the current lists in the meta.
You can freely swap the jackals out for scout sentinels if you want with this list, they cost essentially the same. The jackals are in there because I think they have more board presence. Also, if I'm up against flyer spam I'm not just going to blindly deep strike everything and go "well gwarsh I hope he leaves me room to deploy!" If they've got 5 or 6 crimson hunters, I'll just start it all on the board. My opponent devoted 1000 points of his list to anti tank units that don't score objectives. Great.
The list is basically just competitive imperial soup, swapping out a knight castellan for a bunch of elements that can easily kill a knight castellan, with the added bonus of guardsmen who get the first punch against my opponent's guardsmen.
Maybe we should have waited until the competitive meta wasn't essentially owned by guard before we start reverting guard nerfs in new codexes. Just a thought.
Lie in wait and Drive by demo+Extra explosives(4CP total)
You deploy a bike unit with (at least) 5 demo charges at 3.1" use drive by demo and extra explosives to hit on 3+ wound on 3+ vs 8T (2+ vs all else) then you get to move 14" away.... is this gonna be as cool as I think it will. :-)
Edit: Extra credit if you get your Alphus within 12" for hit on 2+ or your primus within 6" (he can easily come in (" back and be within 6" of bikes if you just include a 6th bike or a Quad due to large bases to reroll 1's...
Jrandom wrote: Does anyone think there could be some value in equipping Oppressor’s Bane on someone else besides the Kelermorph? I am think that since you are going to be having a Clamavus up in your T2 ambushers, you could replace his Auto Pistol with the relic. You then have the Kelermorph fire first, kill a character or two, then have the Clamavus get the reroll 1s buff, and then kill another character. Any thoughts besides “Your wasting a CP!” Situational for sure, but the Clamavus is just sitting there holding a beer for your other characters, until he dies.
I'm with you here The first reflex is to want to put it on a Kelermorph because abilities match, but IMHO it means they are a bit redundant.
The caveat being indeed "waste of CP/Relic slot" - depends of what utility you have of other relics, but if you disregard that and/or really want to use the OB, I agree it is better spent on a non-KM character because you get better mileage out of the upgrade:
- On a Kelermorph:
* Improve 2 shots by AP-1
* Gain 1 shot with S4 AP-2 D2
* Gunslinger ability will generate more shots
- On another character:
* Improve 1 shot by AP-2 and D+1
* Gain 2 shots with S4 AP-2 D2
* Gain "Target Characters" rule
It basically turns another character in a lightweight Kelermorph. Cons: half the shots, no Gunslinger ability - but the big Pro is that it comes on top of the 1-per-detachment limit, so in a 2000pts army you could have 3 KMs +1 LWKM.
Quick review of the possibilities:
- Clamavus: best candidate, likely to be near the frontline to boost charges/morale/pushback DS, while not wanting to go into melee.
- Iconward: second best candidatate as he's likely for similar reasons to hover in the same near-melee-but-not-in-it spot, unless you babysit your gunline with it. Comparatively better in melee though, which may tempt you in in a pinch.
- Biophagus: also likely to hover near the frontlines, but needs Aberrants in the list as well, same comparatively better melee which may tempt you in.
- Jackal Alphus: no incentive to bring it in the right range, may help protect your backfield against DS/fast/fly stuff, but surely too situational.
- Nexos: does not belong anywhere near pistol range of anything. Backfield protection in a pinch, very situational.
- Primus, Locus, Sanctus: can't take it.
If you really want to boost a Kelermorph there's always the Twisted Helix WL trait (yay 6 shots base at D3 with Gunslinger extras ) but I can already hear the cries of "Waste of a WL trait" and "Slay the Warlord bait"
Kelermorph also has better BS so hits more, and is likely turning that 1 extra shot into 2 total hits thanks to his gunslinging, where as someone else will likely turn those 2 extra shots into 1 hit thanks to middling BS. And Kelermorph can shoot characters with it.
It's pretty clear cut, if you are going to take it and you have a Kelermorph I wouldn't put it elsewhere. If you don't feel it does enough on Kelermorph just don't take it at all because it does even less elsewhere.
Im reading in facebook that we can " deep strike" the first turn
Page 79 – Cult Ambush
Add the following sentence:
‘Matched Play: In matched play, units set up in ambush using
this rule count as being set up on the battlefield for the purposes
of Tactical Reserves.’ Q: In a matched play game, can you use Stratagems such as
They Came From Below to increase the number of units set up
underground beyond the normal Tactical Reserves limits?
A: Yes. The Tactical Reserves limits concerning this apply
specifically to deployment, whilst this Stratagem is used
once the battle has started
So 3 units with they came from below, dont meet the requirements of the BETA rule.
SHUPPET wrote: Kelermorph also has better BS so hits more, and is likely turning that 1 extra shot into 2 total hits thanks to his gunslinging, where as someone else will likely turn those 2 extra shots into 1 hit thanks to middling BS. And Kelermorph can shoot characters with it.
It's pretty clear cut, if you are going to take it and you have a Kelermorph I wouldn't put it elsewhere. If you don't feel it does enough on Kelermorph just don't take it at all because it does even less elsewhere.
Oppressors Bane allows you to shoot characters. After receiving the Kelermorph buff, you are almost as accurate.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
zamerion wrote: Im reading in facebook that we can " deep strike" the first turn
Page 79 – Cult Ambush
Add the following sentence:
‘Matched Play: In matched play, units set up in ambush using
this rule count as being set up on the battlefield for the purposes
of Tactical Reserves.’ Q: In a matched play game, can you use Stratagems such as
They Came From Below to increase the number of units set up
underground beyond the normal Tactical Reserves limits?
A: Yes. The Tactical Reserves limits concerning this apply
specifically to deployment, whilst this Stratagem is used
once the battle has started
So 3 units with they came from below, dont meet the requirements of the BETA rule.
what do you think?
Also, mental onslaught is faqued?
Spoiler:
Very interesting on the 1st Turn Deepstrike. Not sure if that was intended.
1) If i take Abominant with Anointed Throng and give him field commander. Can i take blessed sledgehammer and give my Patriach amulet of the void for free or i have to pay 1CP for the extra relic?
2) With Cult ambush i deploy 50% of my army with blips, then at the start of the turn, i can use: they came from below and send 3 more units to cult ambush?
3) With the new mind control i can only make a close combat attack if there is a enemy model 1 inch away?
Very interesting on the 1st Turn Deepstrike. Not sure if that was intended.
I would guess that it wasn't intended. The context in which the ruling is discussed is that the units in cult ambush don't count as being in reinforcements for the purposes of contributing to the amount of units you can have off the board. I agree that the wording leaves it open, but I think the intention is clear.
See the question as worded in the FAQ:
Q: In a matched play game, can you use Stratagems such as
They Came From Below to increase the number of units set up
underground beyond the normal Tactical Reserves limits?
A: Yes. The Tactical Reserves limits concerning this apply
specifically to deployment, whilst this Stratagem is used
once the battle has started
The answer says "The Tactical Reserves limits concerning this apply specifically to deployment...", "this" in this case being the "use [of] Stratagems such as They Came From Below to increase the number of units set up underground beyond the normal Tactical Reserves limits".
Again, I concede that the wording does not make this explicit, but I would be surprised if the intention was to be able to place a unit it ambush, move it to underground, and then deep strike it all in the first turn. The 40k rules team have, through a multitude of changes since the start of the edition, made it abundantly clear that they don't want anybody to deep strike turn 1. I guess we'll have to wait until the March FAQ and see if it is addressed there.
Except that Gate of Infinity and Da Jump seem to work exactly this way. Doesn't speak to intention, but precedent...
Hopefully if one goes, they all go.
1) If i take Abominant with Anointed Throng and give him field commander. Can i take blessed sledgehammer and give my Patriach amulet of the void for free or i have to pay 1CP for the extra relic?
2) With Cult ambush i deploy 50% of my army with blips, then at the start of the turn, i can use: they came from below and send 3 more units to cult ambush?
3) With the new mind control i can only make a close combat attack if there is a enemy model 1 inch away?
1) You have to pay. As per the Vigilus FAQ, the relics you give to your field commanders replace the free relic you get from your warlord's codex.
2) Yes. The FAQ clarified this. You have to start with 50% on the board (either deployed or as cult ambush blips), but this restriction is limited to deployment. When you reveal your ambushing units and use the stratagem, you can put additional units underground as it's no longer deployment.
3) Yes. As the model didn't charge, it can't attack unless it's within 1" already. You should make sure to check this before you choose your target, as you don't want to cast it and then be unable to fight with the model!
hangnailnz wrote: Except that Gate of Infinity and Da Jump seem to work exactly this way. Doesn't speak to intention, but precedent...
Hopefully if one goes, they all go.
Difference would be those start on board right away and are targetable etc. Here the models would never be on board right? So if opponent goes first there's literally nothing he can do to kill the ambushers? Da jump etc they can shoot at will.
(plus max 1 unit and not even automatic needing psychic power which isn't automatic)
On the bright side with the addendum they added to lying in wait you can't use this first turn loophole to ambush in 3" first turn or we would be hearing screams from everyone for sure lol.
Timeshadow wrote: On the bright side with the addendum they added to lying in wait you can't use this first turn loophole to ambush in 3" first turn or we would be hearing screams from everyone for sure lol.
I actually think the interaction and the Turn1 'deeostrike' are absolutely intentional. For once, GW's rules writing, in this specific instance, iscrystal clear and has been made doubly so with the FAQ. It also makes sense both thematically and as a way to put pressure on the opposition in a game where assault armies tend to get shot off the board.
You still end up 9.1" away and will need to spend a further 3CP to allow you to get D6" closer.
Niiai wrote: Wait, how does this work? Our perfect ambush stratagem overides the no deepstrike outside your deployment zone? Is that what we are talking about?
If I understand correctly you put the units as blips thus satisfying "deployed on board" and then use strategem to put them into "deep strike" and as they were deployed on board(as blips) they would count as being on board and ergo not restricted on no T1 deep strike.
Niiai wrote: Wait, how does this work? Our perfect ambush stratagem overides the no deepstrike outside your deployment zone? Is that what we are talking about?
Nope. You can set up blip counters which count as being 'deployed'. When it's time to reveal the blios, you pop They Come from Below for 1 CP. This puts them 'underground'. You can then have them, at the end of your movement phase, turn up 9.1" away. You can then spend a further 3CP to move them D6" closer and hopefully get a charge off.
Scouts screening the opposition will mess this up, though....
Automatically Appended Next Post: So it'll never really work in a tourney and you might catch one of your mates out with it once, before he tells everyone else.
It will mess somebodies deployment up good though.
My lists plan on having perfect ambush turn 2 and 3. But with this you can diversify your ambush portfolio and include a screen clearing unit (sugestions are welcome.) Then you just flowchart him as you take said 3 units into reserves. If he castels he is cramped up and you clear the screen. If he does not castle you T1 charge.
Niiai wrote: It will mess somebodies deployment up good though.
My lists plan on having perfect ambush turn 2 and 3. But with this you can diversify your ambush portfolio and include a screen clearing unit (sugestions are welcome.) Then you just flowchart him as you take said 3 units into reserves. If he castels he is cramped up and you clear the screen. If he does not castle you T1 charge.
That's pretty much it, yeah.
I launched two units of 15 Genestealers with a Patriarch sitting behind them using this at the weekend. Luckily both made it in. Both units obliterated everything they touched before being mown down by enemy fire. But this took most of my opponent's shooting, leaving my other stuff unmolested to advance up the board.
Kelermorphs are actually ridiculously good at screen removal. Take two detachments so you can double up with them. Then pop them out with a squad of rapid firing neophytes. The neophytes and 2nd Kelermorph will be re-rolling 1s to hit if the first Kelermorph kills anything. There's your chaff removed. Next turn pop your Aberrants or big Acolyte squad with a Clamavus. Use A Perfect Ambush and charge in.
Im going to throw a supreme comand detachment of gsc into my nid list.
Alphus jackal, abdominant, patriarch or second abdom,
10 abberants with hammers. Popping them up together should kill anhthing my nids cant normally handle. For a cool price of 500ish points
Hybrid metamorphs are great for infantery. 50 attacs hitting on 2. Rerolling 1.
Acolyte hybrids are cheap enough to spam them. Saws makes you threaten knights.
Abberants kills knights.
If you are twisted helix all of these are S5 or S10. Wherr does the GS fit in? Is it for the turn after as their threath range is long? Often the strike team gets viped out.
Are GS and abberants more survivabel? I have not done any research into how hard they are to kill. Pure genestealers are fast, but then why not ally with nids? I am puzzeled.
Whilst it has the weediest base profile, those Mortal Wounds are looking awfully tasty. Especially when I put multiple into a brood.
Characters, Tanks, multi-wound infantry? All are under threat from the Drill. All of them. Main downside is relatively expensive, and the ability only triggers once per target model. But that's about it. And I'm happy to pay a premium for that added flexibility.
Four in a squad of 10 doesn't break the bank. With a bit of jammy rolling, there's little they can't tickle.
dreadlybrew wrote: Im going to throw a supreme comand detachment of gsc into my nid list.
Alphus jackal, abdominant, patriarch or second abdom,
10 abberants with hammers. Popping them up together should kill anhthing my nids cant normally handle. For a cool price of 500ish points
Plus psyker power oberlap is sexy.
Just remember that you can only take one of each character per detachment. So I don't think you could take the second Abominant in the SC Detachment.
dreadlybrew wrote: Im going to throw a supreme comand detachment of gsc into my nid list.
Alphus jackal, abdominant, patriarch or second abdom,
10 abberants with hammers. Popping them up together should kill anhthing my nids cant normally handle. For a cool price of 500ish points
Plus psyker power oberlap is sexy.
I also don't think you need the Alphus Jackal. She can only support GSC models, so her aura does not have any effect on your army except for herself.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Niiai wrote: I stil do not know where I stand on GS.
Are they just worse acolyte hybrids?
Hybrid metamorphs are great for infantery. 50 attacs hitting on 2. Rerolling 1.
Acolyte hybrids are cheap enough to spam them. Saws makes you threaten knights.
Abberants kills knights.
If you are twisted helix all of these are S5 or S10. Wherr does the GS fit in? Is it for the turn after as their threath range is long? Often the strike team gets viped out.
Are GS and abberants more survivabel? I have not done any research into how hard they are to kill. Pure genestealers are fast, but then why not ally with nids? I am puzzeled.
GS are significantly faster than any of the GSC melee beatsticks. They also have more staying power with T4 5++ and can fight against most units in the game. They have more attacks than the Acolytes and are almost as good against hordes as the metamorphs.
I think they integrated them pretty perfectly in the GSC army. From a fluff perspective any GSC Cult just has very few purestrains. And ruleswise you probably do not want to take more than 1 unit in your GSC army.
Niiai wrote: I stil do not know where I stand on GS.
Are they just worse acolyte hybrids?
Hybrid metamorphs are great for infantery. 50 attacs hitting on 2. Rerolling 1.
Acolyte hybrids are cheap enough to spam them. Saws makes you threaten knights.
Abberants kills knights.
If you are twisted helix all of these are S5 or S10. Wherr does the GS fit in? Is it for the turn after as their threath range is long? Often the strike team gets viped out.
Are GS and abberants more survivabel? I have not done any research into how hard they are to kill. Pure genestealers are fast, but then why not ally with nids? I am puzzeled.
A Purestrain bomb hits almost as hard as 2 Acolyte bombs except in the one turn. Because they lack cult creeds I honestly think this may be their only real niche.
On another note, I can't really see the point of taking Neophytes? I guess they get cult creeds but aside from that, considering points and orders, aren't brood brothers just better as objective holders/detachment fillers?
you are correct. If i can find a way to fight in the shooting phase it will work. i will learn to read better. maybe its worth taking the magus in the SC detachment instead
Gordoape wrote: On another note, I can't really see the point of taking Neophytes? I guess they get cult creeds but aside from that, considering points and orders, aren't brood brothers just better as objective holders/detachment fillers?
Nope.
Neophytes get more toys. And benefitting from Creeds, can get as good as a 3+ save whilst in cover, making them somewhat more durable than Brood Brothers.
10 Brood Brothers can have a single Special Weapon (Flamer or Grenade Launcher only), and a HWT. And unless allied in from AM, don't get Orders.
Neophytes can have up to two Heavy Weapons, and two Special Weapons (Flamer, Grenade Launcher or Webber). Equipped with duel Flamers, they become a much thornier prospect to assault than Brood Brothers.
Well a Primus wpukd give you +1 to hit and reroll ones to wound. Can't say I'm a massive fan of him though compared with just more acolytes / aberrants
Gordoape wrote: On another note, I can't really see the point of taking Neophytes? I guess they get cult creeds but aside from that, considering points and orders, aren't brood brothers just better as objective holders/detachment fillers?
Nope.
Neophytes get more toys. And benefitting from Creeds, can get as good as a 3+ save whilst in cover, making them somewhat more durable than Brood Brothers.
10 Brood Brothers can have a single Special Weapon (Flamer or Grenade Launcher only), and a HWT. And unless allied in from AM, don't get Orders.
Neophytes can have up to two Heavy Weapons, and two Special Weapons (Flamer, Grenade Launcher or Webber). Equipped with duel Flamers, they become a much thornier prospect to assault than Brood Brothers.
True but with Guardsmen you really never want to take special or heavy weapons anyways. Why would those be more worthwhile with neophytes (honest question)? Personally I see so many other places I'd rather put those points in this new codex.
Also, can you confirm that GSC-battalion brood brothers are not able to take orders from an allied Company Commander? From my reading, they would still be able to just fine.
True but with Guardsmen you really never want to take special or heavy weapons anyways. Why would those be more worthwhile with neophytes (honest question)? Personally I see so many other places I'd rather put those points in this new codex.
Also, can you confirm that GSC-battalion brood brothers are not able to take orders from an allied Company Commander? From my reading, they would still be able to just fine.
They definitely do get orders, it was clarified in the FAQ - one order on 20 guys is so strong.
C4E Neophytes from Deliverance Broodsurge detachment near a Clamavus have +2 to charge out of deepstrike and re-roll to charges (very likely that they make it in). With a Patriarch, you can basically deploy a bunch of fearless screens INTO combat with your opponent, after rapidfiring of course.
Also, if you already have a Primus and an Iconward, putting a 20 man Deliverance Neophyte Squad near them can actually hurt. 3+ to hit, re-rolling 1's, S4 and +1 to wound? Just cheap effeciency, straight out of deepstrike, good chance of making their chance, no real worries if they don't.
I appreciate the arguments (and willing to accept I could be very wrong), but gotta say they aren't too compelling to me so far. When you consider the points saved using brood brothers instead.
Niiai wrote: Where do people standon the mining laser Neophytes? It is significantly cheaper then the lascannon.
I tried them in my test game, thought they were alright in a little firebase paired with a jackal alphus. I think if you're comparing a neophyte squad with two MLs in a goliath with a Ridgerunner with HML and spotter I don't know if the increased durability is worth the extra points - though the neophyte squad is a hell of a lot more durable. Also a troop slot, which might be the biggest thing recommending it.
Achilles, HML, Spotter: 84pts
Pros: 30" range plus scout move means turn 1 you will probably not be at BS5+
Lascannon shots buffable by alphus
Goliath, Neophytes: 146pts
Pros: 2 extra autocannons, 8 autoguns
2 extra wounds on the vehicle body, 6+++, have to get thru vehicle and neos to kill the lasers
Troop slot
Cons: Lasers not buffable by Alphus if in transport
58pts more expensive
So, depends how you want to structure your list. I think most people are going to be going for Bladed Cog or Rusted Claw in their "Actual GSC Stuff" detachment, with C4AE being your "I brought some Brood Brothers Magus and Patriarch" detachment, so I would definitely say for Bladed Cog the neophytes sound pretty fun because you can move them up and attack.
Maybe if you skipped the transport, went bladed cog, gave them GLs as well and stuck them in an Alphus+Iconward aura?
Plus people are getting carried away by the orders a bit. If your deepstrikng a tempester prime and a couple blobs you need a massive landing zone. If you can secure one, it is amazing and well worth it's price, but it is not that easy. The more of these you stack in the harder the task of getting space gets. It's why I think your going to want 2 squads and a prime from a supreme command or outrider so you can grab either tank commanders or hellhounds to make the AM detachment worth it's opportunity cost.
You could choose to standard deploy a lump of these and use move move move turn 1, but that requires the guys giving orders to be on the table and they don't have cult ambush. That means he's sitting in a see of blips and they know where they are exactly, I'd love playing that in the mirror match since even after revealing markers he can't benefit from unquestioning loyalty. I'll love being able to counter deploy exactly where the officers are and snipe them with my Alphas and Sanctus if need be (sanctus in the movement phase of either turn). There are ways to hide with terrain still, but it is definitely going to mess with your turn 1 movement since orders go off in the shooting phase. But then they are just running up into the guns and are FAR less durable then neophytes.
This will make things like Vindicares much scarier as well.
Generally your going to want to deepstrike this lot. Personally I am going to try it with a prime and two 20 man BB units. I haven't decided if I prefer hellhounds or tank commanders as well to clear a zone.
Niiai wrote: Where do people standon the mining laser Neophytes? It is significantly cheaper then the lascannon.
I tried them in my test game, thought they were alright in a little firebase paired with a jackal alphus. I think if you're comparing a neophyte squad with two MLs in a goliath with a Ridgerunner with HML and spotter I don't know if the increased durability is worth the extra points - though the neophyte squad is a hell of a lot more durable. Also a troop slot, which might be the biggest thing recommending it.
Achilles, HML, Spotter: 84pts
Pros: 30" range plus scout move means turn 1 you will probably not be at BS5+
Lascannon shots buffable by alphus
Goliath, Neophytes: 146pts
Pros: 2 extra autocannons, 8 autoguns
2 extra wounds on the vehicle body, 6+++, have to get thru vehicle and neos to kill the lasers
Troop slot
Cons: Lasers not buffable by Alphus if in transport
58pts more expensive
So, depends how you want to structure your list. I think most people are going to be going for Bladed Cog or Rusted Claw in their "Actual GSC Stuff" detachment, with C4AE being your "I brought some Brood Brothers Magus and Patriarch" detachment, so I would definitely say for Bladed Cog the neophytes sound pretty fun because you can move them up and attack.
Maybe if you skipped the transport, went bladed cog, gave them GLs as well and stuck them in an Alphus+Iconward aura?
Heavy Mining laser is not 24" its 36" range. I'd never take the spotter over the flares. Also, I wouldn't compare those two items. They are to be played differently IMO. So one doesn't really invalidate the other is all I am saying.
Red Corsair wrote: Plus people are getting carried away by the orders a bit. If your deepstrikng a tempester prime and a couple blobs you need a massive landing zone. If you can secure one, it is amazing and well worth it's price, but it is not that easy. The more of these you stack in the harder the task of getting space gets. It's why I think your going to want 2 squads and a prime from a supreme command or outrider so you can grab either tank commanders or hellhounds to make the AM detachment worth it's opportunity cost.
You could choose to standard deploy a lump of these and use move move move turn 1, but that requires the guys giving orders to be on the table and they don't have cult ambush. That means he's sitting in a see of blips and they know where they are exactly, I'd love playing that in the mirror match since even after revealing markers he can't benefit from unquestioning loyalty. I'll love being able to counter deploy exactly where the officers are and snipe them with my Alphas and Sanctus if need be (sanctus in the movement phase of either turn). There are ways to hide with terrain still, but it is definitely going to mess with your turn 1 movement since orders go off in the shooting phase. But then they are just running up into the guns and are FAR less durable then neophytes.
This will make things like Vindicares much scarier as well.
Generally your going to want to deepstrike this lot. Personally I am going to try it with a prime and two 20 man BB units. I haven't decided if I prefer hellhounds or tank commanders as well to clear a zone.
Niiai wrote: Where do people standon the mining laser Neophytes? It is significantly cheaper then the lascannon.
I tried them in my test game, thought they were alright in a little firebase paired with a jackal alphus. I think if you're comparing a neophyte squad with two MLs in a goliath with a Ridgerunner with HML and spotter I don't know if the increased durability is worth the extra points - though the neophyte squad is a hell of a lot more durable. Also a troop slot, which might be the biggest thing recommending it.
Achilles, HML, Spotter: 84pts
Pros: 30" range plus scout move means turn 1 you will probably not be at BS5+
Lascannon shots buffable by alphus
Goliath, Neophytes: 146pts
Pros: 2 extra autocannons, 8 autoguns
2 extra wounds on the vehicle body, 6+++, have to get thru vehicle and neos to kill the lasers
Troop slot
Cons: Lasers not buffable by Alphus if in transport
58pts more expensive
So, depends how you want to structure your list. I think most people are going to be going for Bladed Cog or Rusted Claw in their "Actual GSC Stuff" detachment, with C4AE being your "I brought some Brood Brothers Magus and Patriarch" detachment, so I would definitely say for Bladed Cog the neophytes sound pretty fun because you can move them up and attack.
Maybe if you skipped the transport, went bladed cog, gave them GLs as well and stuck them in an Alphus+Iconward aura?
Heavy Mining laser is not 24" its 36" range. I'd never take the spotter over the flares. Also, I wouldn't compare those two items. They are to be played differently IMO. So one doesn't really invalidate the other is all I am saying.
They don't invalidate each other, but if you're using the ML neophytes as a mechanized unit, I think they are comparable and worth contrasting.
I also think you are heavily overestimating how difficult it is going to be to deploy BBs in their effective range. If we were talking about the combo that was getting chatter when the leaks first came out - Lying in Wait Handflamer Acolytes, who are IMO laughable at this point now that we know BBs exist - I'd probably agree with you. But if I start with a good amount of chaff removal on the board to take care of nurglings/Movemovemove infantry/other fast elements that would attmept to box out my deep strike zones, I don't think I have too much to worry about from that tactic. The only list I think has a legitimate chance of pulling it off is something like flyer spam, and as I said before, the only flyer spam list currently in the meta seems to be eldar flyer spam. Every one of those on the board against us is a unit that will be doing next to nothing to kill our units.
If you somehow end up in the situation where your enemy simultaneously has a ton of snipers and a ton of deep strike zone denial...sure, you're in trouble. I don't know of that list in the current competitive meta. If I'm up against 3x vindicares, I am probably not also up against nurglings. If I'm up against six eldar flyers, the rest of the army is venoms full of Kabalites usually, not snipers.
It'll have to wait until we actually see competitive GSC lists. But I know I will be amazed if those competitive lists do not regularly feature at least 40 BBs in deep strike.
You didn't fully understand me then. I don't have an issue with ordered BB's. I have an issue with imbalanced lists that take the thing that looks great one minute and spams it to the nth degree.
I have seen lists in the last two pages with 120 brood bros, I definitely am not saying they are bad, but that's far too many IMHO. You were suggesting earlier that they are on par with conscripts which isn't even remotely true. Conscripts at the time of abuse were 3ppm, S4 from catachan, lost a max 1 guy from LD, had 3 attacks and could be given a 4+ save 3+ from shooting(take cover strat) and a 2+ in cover AND -1 to hit all prior to receiving orders. No, BB platoons are nowhere in the same galaxy as catachan conscripts were.
They max out at a standard GEQ profile with fearless. Which is good, don't get me wrong, but your only getting single s3 punches in assault, and FRFSRF. Most crucially, your not very durable.
All I am saying is I wouldn't over invest in them over neophytes. Neophytes make a far better anchor and are much more flexible, they also can receive every aura we have.
EDIT
All I meant in regard to your ML comparison was they shouldn't be looked at as competition. I knew what you meant, but I could see someone taking it the wrong way so we are in agreement there.
Also note, we are mostly in agreement on BB, I just disagree with the notion that 120+ of these guys is not making your list weaker in the end by over doing it. That's all.
PS I was saying from the start that ~40 was the right number. 60 depending on your list maybe.
So, I made two lists earlier and never got critique on them. They're my first attempt, so they can almost certainly be improved vastly-but I'd like assistance with that.
Have been playing two squads of Neos with MLs in Goliaths since Index times. They were garbage before and are decent now. In my experience they need the Goliath for the movement. Otherwise they often won't reach their targets with their 24" guns.
They ARE buffable by the Alphus btw. So you could take them in Bladed Cog detachment and have them hit on 3s even after moving with the Goliath (if they are in range of the Alphus).
JNAProductions wrote: So, I made two lists earlier and never got critique on them. They're my first attempt, so they can almost certainly be improved vastly-but I'd like assistance with that.
My own position on both lists is that I don't like 5 man acolyte squads. I don't think they do very much except die. I'm happy for someone to prove me wrong - and lots of ob sec squads running around can be useful - but melee squads that have a high chance of dying (or being reduced to 2 models) from overwatch don't do much in my opinion. Have you had success with them? You seem to be really going after CPs - but if there isn't much to really benefit from them I don't see what the point is.
Also you want a Nexos. Or maybe you don't because you have so many CP already - but eh... I'd cut the detachment CP and bring one.
With that said - and its a wider point on the thread - a lot of this comes down to "what version of the game are you playing". I.e. CA18 missions, ITC, ETC etc.
Because I think these 240~ body lists would be great for CA18. I'm not convinced its especially fun for either player to play - but you put that many bodies on the objectives and I think a lot of opponents will not be able to shift you off in time.
I'm not convinced its so good for ITC. Its too one-dimensional. You will give up secondaries, probably lose more units every turn and not really be able to get at certain armies.
I'm also in the camp that thinks GS are pointless. The ability to assault and charge is pretty much all they have over acolytes. Thats nice, but for double the points? Shuppets right about having more power for a single punch - but this raises issues of overkill and really gambling on that charge roll.
I really think they should have got chapter tactics and if need be go up another point or two. Kraken GS don't break the game at 12 points, I'm not convinced C4E/Helix etc would break the game at 15. I guess a 4++ with Cog might be an issue (DE say hello.)
Its an issue though that Acolytes, GS, Metamorphs all basically do minor variations of the same thing. One of them will win out.
JNAProductions wrote: So, I made two lists earlier and never got critique on them. They're my first attempt, so they can almost certainly be improved vastly-but I'd like assistance with that.
My own position on both lists is that I don't like 5 man acolyte squads. I don't think they do very much except die. I'm happy for someone to prove me wrong - and lots of ob sec squads running around can be useful - but melee squads that have a high chance of dying (or being reduced to 2 models) from overwatch don't do much in my opinion. Have you had success with them? You seem to be really going after CPs - but if there isn't much to really benefit from them I don't see what the point is.
Also you want a Nexos. Or maybe you don't because you have so many CP already - but eh... I'd cut the detachment CP and bring one.
With that said - and its a wider point on the thread - a lot of this comes down to "what version of the game are you playing". I.e. CA18 missions, ITC, ETC etc.
Because I think these 240~ body lists would be great for CA18. I'm not convinced its especially fun for either player to play - but you put that many bodies on the objectives and I think a lot of opponents will not be able to shift you off in time.
I'm not convinced its so good for ITC. Its too one-dimensional. You will give up secondaries, probably lose more units every turn and not really be able to get at certain armies.
I'm also in the camp that thinks GS are pointless. The ability to assault and charge is pretty much all they have over acolytes. Thats nice, but for double the points? Shuppets right about having more power for a single punch - but this raises issues of overkill and really gambling on that charge roll.
I really think they should have got chapter tactics and if need be go up another point or two. Kraken GS don't break the game at 12 points, I'm not convinced C4E/Helix etc would break the game at 15. I guess a 4++ with Cog might be an issue (DE say hello.)
Its an issue though that Acolytes, GS, Metamorphs all basically do minor variations of the same thing. One of them will win out.
I agree about Genestealers (for being the name of the codex) are almost pointless; they need cult creeds I think. And Metamorphs seem like utter garbage compared to regular Hybrids.
And there really is no reason not to include a Nexos; just the possibility of regaining CP in such a CP hungry army is worth his 50 points.
How viable do people think putting a mob of Genestealers in a Goliath would be? Tempting target yes, but not terribly so; and would give the GS a little more survivability until the truck is popped.
) but I can already hear the cries of "Waste of a 
