H.B.M.C. wrote: 50% of the way through this show and it still doesn't have a plot. The pacing is all over the place, and the laughable runtimes (scarcely 30m before you add in the 5+ minutes of exceptionally long credits) aren't helping.
Most of this episode was a chase sequence. That would be one of 4-5 set pieces in a single movie, yet this was a whole episode.
Almost exactly my reaction at the end. 'That was an episode?'
You can even see where they cut out dialogue. Butterscotch? Clint doesn't need explanation. Right hand minion's full name? They just know it. Back alley hearing aid repair... doctor? Just right there, not like anyone is just going to see them on the street... this time.
But hey, at least they didn't have spend any time on an investigation arc, the next bad guy is formally presenting the next piece of evidence.
trexmeyer wrote:The plot might not be any good and you might not like it, but there's clearly a plot.
Kate's plot: ruin mom's engagement.
Dog's plot: get fed and walked.
Clint's plot: stop being in this show.
Her uncle. I’m leaning away from it being Sword Guy because they’re making it so obvious it’s him without just showing us it’s him. I’m thinking Sword Guy is innocent of Armond’s murder and any general Tracksuit related crimes.
AduroT wrote: Her uncle. I’m leaning away from it being Sword Guy because they’re making it so obvious it’s him without just showing us it’s him. I’m thinking Sword Guy is innocent of Armond’s murder and any general Tracksuit related crimes.
I agree with that logic, but also I don't think it matters. Its either him or an eleventh hour villain that they haven't even bothered to introduce. (or the mom, which is still just... whatever... as an idea).
Exactly who they beat up in a fight so Kate can be in the next Avenger's montage and Clint can avoid being in the next Avenger's montage isn't exactly important.
As far as the show is concerned, the only thing that really matters is wrapping the show so the next movie can happen with the right actors on the contracts. Which isn't particularly compelling.
However I must deduct points for using that Christmas music which is always used for chase scenes. I don’t know what it’s called, but it’s trope and it’s always irked me on an irrational level.
Really liked this episode. Good character dynamics, fun action, not quite as long. I can definitely see where this was likely a movie at some point, as a few bits get dragged out longer than necessary.
A little at odds with the sound design. It felt like they weren't confident in how much "can't hear" disorientation they wanted and the big car chase really seemed to suffer for it. The sequence itself was great, but the sound felt more unfinished than meaningfully doing something with the hearing loss.
LunarSol wrote: Really liked this episode. Good character dynamics, fun action, not quite as long. I can definitely see where this was likely a movie at some point, as a few bits get dragged out longer than necessary.
A little at odds with the sound design. It felt like they weren't confident in how much "can't hear" disorientation they wanted and the big car chase really seemed to suffer for it. The sequence itself was great, but the sound felt more unfinished than meaningfully doing something with the hearing loss.
The whole episode suffered from that, even with the flashback history and the phone call of 'yanking on your heartstrings in the kitchen window sunbeam.' They obviously wanted the audience to feel alienation and isolation, but flinched away every single time. The camera work for the shots of Clint during the latter was really good though.
This show is already leaning hard on all the characters existing on the same block of MCU street in NYC. Magically disguised unrelated characters also just hanging out there would take it from convenient to egregious.
Also, I can't se MCU Odin slumming it as a dog. Also, he'd better be actually dead, as it's the only excuse for being a crap dad and also dodging his responsibilities for Hela and Ragnorak.
Also, I can't se MCU Odin slumming it as a dog. Also, he'd better be actually dead, as it's the only excuse for being a crap dad and also dodging his responsibilities for Hela and Ragnorak.
He could be hiding for many reasons, one of them being slowly becoming monstrously powerful to fight something equally monstrously powerful, or simply being a threat to MCU himself. It could also be a different Odin, like we had more than one Loki.
Easy E wrote: To be fair, Marvel New York is pretty much everyone on the same block of MCU street. It is like that in the comics too.
Eh. Yes and no. There was a time where they did crossover comics and cameos, but they usually had a hook (or were just background shots). Generally speaking Spiderman didn't turn up to X-men fights in the city, even though some of the big ones really should have brought attention from other characters (like the big brawl that killed Senator Kelly's wife, where most of a city block gets wrecked).
But its still one thing for these girls to be inspired by Clints big acts of heroism or villainy, but quite another for a god/alien to just be hanging about waiting for the plothook to the next series or movie.
Generally fun episode - although pretty much all about the car chase, and a bit of a set up for minor villain #756 to be after Ronin for killing her father. I agree about the sound - and not just because of the 'lost hearing aid' effect either - there was some quiet mumbling after the aid was repaired.
Bit of an abrupt ending too, but looking forward to next week's episode.
But its still one thing for these girls to be inspired by Clints big acts of heroism or villainy, but quite another for a god/alien to just be hanging about waiting for the plothook to the next series or movie.
What I meant would not impact the story in any way, it could simply be a post credits scene after last episode. Some fun revelation for the Hawkeye series, nothing more.
I am liking it all so far. I don't know Echo from the comics, but what I have read since her show was announced is potentially promising/good. Also now we have a backdoor introduction to the Kingpin and Daredevil in the MCU, which is just great.
Broadening out the MCU to have more depth without having to spell everything out with every new character getting their own series is a good thing imo.
I think Renner is nailing it. So far the themes are really heavily built around Hawkeye's PTSD/Survivors guilt and Kate's/the public's hero worship. The phone call scene with his kid when he can't actually hear him is just a great moment all around. It shows Hawkeyes connections, his sadness, his disappointment in not being able to be with his family, and it humanized him with Kate. Her hero worship is getting stamped down a little bit there.
I mean, he survived the snap where various friends didn’t, and his family certainly didn’t. He went over the edge bonkers tonto mental, becoming Ronin. Then, returning to being a hero, he has to sacrifice his closest friend to save everyone else.
Out of all the Avengers left, he’s the least powered, the most human, and has had the roughest ride.
That’s a lot for a man to process, and now? Some kid has given the underworld the impression she is Ronin, and they’re out to get her.
Clint can’t simply own up to it and take his licks, because these people would probably go after his family as well - if not first.
Lance845 wrote: I am liking it all so far. I don't know Echo from the comics, but what I have read since her show was announced is potentially promising/good. Also now we have a backdoor introduction to the Kingpin and Daredevil in the MCU, which is just great.
This organised crime lieutenant of moronic thugs is getting her own tv show? I had her down as another Karli - dead and forgotten by the end of the series.
I know very little about Echo. Had never even heard of her until she just Very recently claimed the Phoenix Force and joined the Avengers, prompting me to give a quick summery reading of her bio and finding out she’s a Dare Devil character, which is not a series I’ve read any of.
She's always been relatively minor. I mostly remember her because she was the original Ronin back when that was a big mystery in Bendis's New Avengers. That arc doesn't really help me understand her character much though, since Bendis seemed to be writing Ronin as Daredevil until the internet guessed it, but its hard to say for sure.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:It’s definitely showing the depth of Clint.
I mean, he survived the snap where various friends didn’t, and his family certainly didn’t. He went over the edge bonkers tonto mental, becoming Ronin. Then, returning to being a hero, he has to sacrifice his closest friend to save everyone else.
Out of all the Avengers left, he’s the least powered, the most human, and has had the roughest ride.
That’s a lot for a man to process, and now? Some kid has given the underworld the impression she is Ronin, and they’re out to get her.
Clint can’t simply own up to it and take his licks, because these people would probably go after his family as well - if not first.
Yeah it's pretty great. He is also the second (maybe 3rd if you count Thor during parts of his journey) character we have seen become basically suicidal. His stint as Ronin was a cry of Death by Vigilante. He went out there looking to take as many people with him as possible after losing his family and friends. The first being Tony Stark. Until Endgame when he had a daughter, he was a man who knew he was dead from the moment Yinsen died. He says it himself in the first movie. "I shouldn't be here. I should be dead." He spends the next 3 movies throwing himself into danger and making the sacrifice play over and over again.
That was Clint as Ronin. Except now his family is back and he is still processing all that loss.
MarkNorfolk wrote:
Lance845 wrote: I am liking it all so far. I don't know Echo from the comics, but what I have read since her show was announced is potentially promising/good. Also now we have a backdoor introduction to the Kingpin and Daredevil in the MCU, which is just great.
This organised crime lieutenant of moronic thugs is getting her own tv show? I had her down as another Karli - dead and forgotten by the end of the series.
If it's at all like the comics, the guy in the black suit that we only ever really see his hand (when she is a kid in the martial arts tourney he pinches her cheek and chuckles) is Kingpin. Supposedly the chuckle matches up with Netflix Daredevils Vincent D'onofrio's Kingpin along with the black suits he was wearing pre Vanessa. And yes, getting her own show.
Kate's mom and Jack- these people make me wildly uncomfortable. Ditch the superhero crap for a moment, just...
psychoanalyzing your daughter with the new fiance that she hates while she's on the couch five feet away, then indulging in an extended flirting session? Who does that?
The constant swing from angst to absolute cringe is just killing this show for me. Also Kate swinging from competent to dumb as a brick.
Spoiler:
'Hey, totally friend of a superhero here, ignore that I'm armed and I'm openly asking for evidence tampering.' How does this lead to a party and not... jail?
---
So, OK, I get how the new character got called in. But I'm guessing we're not going to get an explanation for why they'd be at _that_ specific random rooftop.
Anyway, our heroes have all three MacGuffins, they've had their third act fight, so... hostages, crumpets and reconciliation?
We already know why she's in the rooftop, we were told in the movie she was introduced in. As for how an über trained operative located one of the most famous men on the planet making no real effort to hide his identity or location, do we really need that explained?
So the Watch is something extra important after all. Quite important indeed if upon realizing stuff survived the compound they went near straight to What about the Watch? Did it survive? Better check the beacon. That it has a tracker beacon on it he has access to even. Before I was able to just write it off as a random hook, but now I’m curious.
Azreal13 wrote: We already know why she's in the rooftop, we were told in the movie she was introduced in. As for how an über trained operative located one of the most famous men on the planet making no real effort to hide his identity or location, do we really need that explained?
No, it makes perfect sense.
Half the fun of this thread is reading the hot takes from Voss and watching them collapse as more episodes come out.
Azreal13 wrote: We already know why she's in the rooftop, we were told in the movie she was introduced in. As for how an über trained operative located one of the most famous men on the planet making no real effort to hide his identity or location, do we really need that explained?
It'd be nice if the things I'm mocking the series for didn't get played out again and again, yeah.
It doesn't so much need an explanation as it'd be nice if someone in the entire series was shown actually putting in the work, rather than just showing up at the next scene or location with script in hand.
In theory, Hawkeye is one of the more grounded supers, that has to do everything the hard way. Except in this show everything he (or his foes) needs is simply gift wrapped and given:
Where's macguffin X and person of interest? Oh, here on this street ---> I really want someone to try this in NYC, by the way. Just pick a random person who lives in the city, that you know nothing about where they live and what they do, you know their outfit just because they happened to walk through an evening news shot, and just walk around until you run into them. Good luck.
Need to get captured? Just hang out on the street until villains show up. Need to get an ear piece fixed? Just hang out on the street and villains won't show up. Need to talk to one? Go to their listed place of business and no one will notice.
Macguffin #2? Oh, villain guy literally holds it out. Is he a villain? One name check, and.. yep. They offhand know the company is a laundering front, but not the guy in charge. That requires a whole text.
Macguffin #3? Oh, locator chip. We didn't know it was stolen, but... tadah! Here it is. How many other things are out there that they should just ping to find?
Trick arrows? Cops have a bag in evidence. Random college student can just... ask for evidence tampering. Openly. And they hand deliver them, to a random apartment. To the college kid (who doesn't live there) who's avoiding a police investigation (that's not 100% unlikely because it could be a different unit in a different precinct, but still).
Its just pure nonsense from beginning to end.
There could be something here, but the random flailing, cringe, and plot contrivances are burying the interesting bits.
Azreal13 wrote: We already know why she's in the rooftop, we were told in the movie she was introduced in. As for how an über trained operative located one of the most famous men on the planet making no real effort to hide his identity or location, do we really need that explained?
It'd be nice if the things I'm mocking the series for didn't get played out again and again, yeah. It doesn't so much need an explanation as it'd be nice if someone in the entire series was shown actually putting in the work, rather than just showing up at the next scene or location with script in hand.
In theory, Hawkeye is one of the more grounded supers, that has to do everything the hard way. Except in this show everything he (or his foes) needs is simply gift wrapped and given:
Where's macguffin X and person of interest? Oh, here on this street ---> I really want someone to try this in NYC, by the way. Just pick a random person who lives in the city, that you know nothing about where they live and what they do, you know their outfit just because they happened to walk through an evening news shot, and just walk around until you run into them. Good luck.
Need to get captured? Just hang out on the street until villains show up. Need to get an ear piece fixed? Just hang out on the street and villains won't show up. Need to talk to one? Go to their place of business and no one will notice.
Macguffin #2? Oh, villain guy literally holds it out. Is he a villain? One name check, and.. yep. They offhand know the company is a laundering front, but not the guy in charge. That requires a whole text.
Macguffin #3? Oh, locator chip. We didn't know it was stolen, but... tadah! Here it is. How many other things are out there that they should just ping to find?
Trick arrows? Cops have a bag in evidence. Random college student can just... ask for evidence tampering. Openly. And they hand deliver them, to a random apartment. To the college kid (who doesn't live there) who's avoiding a police investigation (that's not 100% unlikely because it could be a different unit in a different precinct, but still).
Its just pure nonsense from beginning to end. There could be something here, but the random flailing, cringe, and plot contrivances are burying the interesting bits.
Need to get caught? Hang out in the street in their territory where they already rocked up to go after Kate. He knows they are watching that area.
Need to find the suit and do the work. Go to the apartment where the fire fighters are. see it's missing. Find the larp sticker. Look into it. Find the groups instagram. Find a video of the guy wearing it. See their next meeting. Go to it. etc etc... You literally watch him do the work.
Yep. He does a bit of searching on his phone, exactly once, for those random LARPing firefighters that habitually rob crime scenes.
He doesn't consider any other possibility (like the mafia group that started the fires the night before), just goes with... that, which frankly struck me as a stretch (that just happened to be right, because that's the level of script we're working with, for what turned out to be a fairly long and agonizing gag. I was honestly surprised they decided to reprise that.)
If there are other scenes you 'could go on' with, please do. I'm honestly curious (given that I gave a half dozen examples among many and you gave one).
Azreal13 wrote: Good lord, you must struggle keeping up with the plot of the news.
Because criticism creates personal insults from people who don't agree?
I'm definitely not following your logic.
Voss wrote: Yep. He does a bit of searching on his phone, exactly once, for those random LARPing firefighters that habitually rob crime scenes.
He doesn't consider any other possibility (like the mafia group that started the fires the night before), just goes with... that.
If there are other scenes you 'could go on' with, please do. I'm honestly curious.
Azreal13 wrote: Good lord, you must struggle keeping up with the plot of the news.
Because criticism creates personal insults from people who don't agree?
I'm definitely not following your logic.
So your complaint is that the shield agent spy/assassin was good at doing an investigation against idiot civilians who flaunted their find, and we didn't watch him run into a bunch of dead ends first?
Voss wrote: Yep. He does a bit of searching on his phone, exactly once, for those random LARPing firefighters that habitually rob crime scenes.
He doesn't consider any other possibility (like the mafia group that started the fires the night before), just goes with... that.
If there are other scenes you 'could go on' with, please do. I'm honestly curious.
Azreal13 wrote: Good lord, you must struggle keeping up with the plot of the news.
Because criticism creates personal insults from people who don't agree?
I'm definitely not following your logic.
So your complaint is that the shield agent spy/assassin was good at doing an investigation against idiot civilians who flaunted their find, and we didn't watch him run into a bunch of dead ends first?
Yep. Feel free to be reductive about it. Sure. That's the one issue with the entire four episodes so far, there's nothing else to it.
Personally I could use a few extra episodes of them just wandering streets looking for people, staring at computer screens doing internet searches, chasing down dead ends. Just a good hour long montage of nothing happening.
I was gonna book in, but it’s already hella busy. And, with the new lager lurgy variant, whilst there are still seats I’m not sure I trust my fellow humans enough to risk being packed in.
Scratch that…..4pm viewing is in one of the smaller screens, and there’s a nicely isolated Premier seat. So I’ve booked.
Finally decided to start watching Hawkeye. I didn't have much excitement for this, as while I like Hawkeye just fine I wasn't exactly dying for him to get his own show. After having seen the first 4 episodes I can't believe how much I love it. The people in charge of casting at Marvel are seriously so damn good at their jobs. Kate is such a good addition, Hailee Steinfeld is killing it and I already can't wait to see more of her.
In the last episode, when Clint was trying to warn her about the toll it takes to do what he does, that was some really good passing of the torch storytelling. Really looking forward to the rest of it.
creeping-deth87 wrote: Finally decided to start watching Hawkeye. I didn't have much excitement for this, as while I like Hawkeye just fine I wasn't exactly dying for him to get his own show. After having seen the first 4 episodes I can't believe how much I love it. The people in charge of casting at Marvel are seriously so damn good at their jobs. Kate is such a good addition, Hailee Steinfeld is killing it and I already can't wait to see more of her.
In the last episode, when Clint was trying to warn her about the toll it takes to do what he does, that was some really good passing of the torch storytelling. Really looking forward to the rest of it.
Or passing the arrow storytelling as he literally does that this episode. I'm unexpectedly enjoying it as well. I say unexpectedly mainly because of my very low expectations for preachy Marvel nowadays despite liking the initial release trailer. I didn't bother with Falcon, Wanda, or Loki though and I don't regret it (based off of reviews from sources I trust). I definitely think this is a good way to introduce a new character and wish the series was a bit longer. And, yes, Hailee Steinfeld is completely adorkable in the show which certainly helps. I just hope they stick the landing next week.
Lance845 wrote: You're free to feel however you want to feel about it. Like what you like, like it to whatever extent you like it.
But your expectations for what makes entertaining TV is wild.
You have to know this is absurd, right? You've got to. Bond, Bourne, Midsummer Murders, 20+ seasons and multiple spinoffs of NCIS, literally hundreds of other shows and movies, remakes of Agatha Christie stuff still happen, for crying out loud. People watch this stuff.
Now, maybe I'm crazy for expecting the MCU's espionage guy to be cast in a espionage/investigation series when his turn came up, but I don't think its unreasonable to want to see that. Or that there somehow isn't an audience for it.
Is it a spoiler thing? I don't look for those (and don't read hollywood news of any kind), so getting baited with the opening then a hard switch to the 'Odd Couple' rather than espionage hit me pretty hard, even if everyone else in the world 'knew it' already.
Lance845 wrote: You're free to feel however you want to feel about it. Like what you like, like it to whatever extent you like it.
But your expectations for what makes entertaining TV is wild.
You have to know this is absurd, right? You've got to. Bond, Bourne, Midsummer Murders, 20+ seasons and multiple spinoffs of NCIS, literally hundreds of other shows and movies, remakes of Agatha Christie stuff still happen, for crying out loud. People watch this stuff.
Now, maybe I'm crazy for expecting the MCU's espionage guy to be cast in a espionage/investigation series when his turn came up, but I don't think its unreasonable to want to see that. Or that there somehow isn't an audience for it.
Is it a spoiler thing? I don't look for those (and don't read hollywood news of any kind), so getting baited with the opening then a hard switch to the 'Odd Couple' rather than espionage hit me pretty hard, even if everyone else in the world 'knew it' already.
I.... huh. I can't really see how the opening baits anything other than "hey, guys! This is heavily inspired by Fraction's Hawkeye run!" They use all the same visual cues as that one, they even use the same title font, there's the tracksuit gang, there's the pizza dog, there's the Kate Bishop, there's the ear help... And that run is as much the odd couple as it could possibly be.
I don't really know how that was misleading, so I'm obviously missing something, or my expectations were wildly different.
Okay just finished it. I think this might be the single best episode of any of the MCU shows so far. Such a killer opening and what a final stinger to the episode. fething killing it.
Okay just finished it. I think this might be the single best episode of any of the MCU shows so far. Such a killer opening and what a final stinger to the episode. fething killing it.
Right?! It's so much better than it has any reason to be. I'm honestly so floored. It's criminal there's only 1 episode left. I would have devoured a full 20+ episode season of this.
I can kind of see how this is going to wrap up in the final episode.
Spoiler:
The Maya story is more or less done. She is now not really after Ronin any more. She is now after Kingpin. Which is going to be her own show. Which means the watch, whatever it really is, is now within easy reach. That leaves Yolena and Kingpin as the man behind the hit to be dealt with. And Yolena's part in this is solved with a conversation. There might be a fight. But I think Kate, "having a conversation, making a connection, showing a little empathy", is going to bridge the gap so that Yolena can learn about how Natasha actually died and more about who Clint really is. Which could be more great moments of Clint
So then Kingpin. Is that going to be a fight? Is it going to be a conversation? Will he make it home for xmas?! Can't wait!
H.B.M.C. wrote: Took 5 episodes to introduce us to its villain. Show still doesn't really have a plot.
Sssssooooooooo… Like most of the other MCU shows? How long was it until we got Agatha’s villain reveal. How long until we saw Kang? Ultron Who Won? I think only Winterfalcon had a clear villain from the beginning and didn’t pull a fake out on you. I’ve been saying since the beginning that Sword Guy was too obvious and a clear red herring.
Again, just because you don’t like the plot doesn’t mean it doesn’t have one.
AduroT wrote: Again, just because you don’t like the plot doesn’t mean it doesn’t have one.
No this really lacks an actual story.
WandaVision didn't get us to Agetha until much later on, but the show had an ongoing story. A mystery. We didn't get Kang until the final episode of Loki, but again, the show had a central narrative to take us through. Falcon/Soldier had a strong story, even if it could never figure out if it's central villain was a villain or not.
Am I high? Were there not multiple mysteries established on episode 1?
Who killed the old rich geezer and why?
Who and why were people after the Ronin suit and watch at the auction? And then shortly after that, why were the Tracksuits so eager to catch Ronin?
There's a plot; its just not particularly focused or engaging. The conflicts are largely small and personal but also kind of impersonal in the sense that they're between characters that don't really connect with each other. Plot is not one of the strong points of the show even after this rather excellent penultimate episode.
A good example is who killed Armando Sr. It's a mystery but almost no one seems all that concerned about it. Kate brings it up occasionally but mostly because she's upset about her mom's sleazy fiancé. The watch is pure mcguffin that gets forgotten as a mcguffin. The one solid bit is the Ronin suit, but its not a mystery. We know why a bunch of criminals are after the guy who went on a murder spree through the criminal underworld.
As relentlessly negative as that all sounds, I'm still rather enjoying the show because its mostly an excuse for character interactions and for the most part I've quite enjoyed them. It's a little more on the level of say, a CW DC show than something like Daredevil or Wandavision or even Falcon and WS, but Arrow and Flash and the rest had some real high points and at a brisk 6 episodes, this hits that without the crippling bloat those shows wallowed in.
Lance845 wrote: You're free to feel however you want to feel about it. Like what you like, like it to whatever extent you like it.
But your expectations for what makes entertaining TV is wild.
You have to know this is absurd, right? You've got to. Bond, Bourne, Midsummer Murders, 20+ seasons and multiple spinoffs of NCIS, literally hundreds of other shows and movies, remakes of Agatha Christie stuff still happen, for crying out loud. People watch this stuff.
Now, maybe I'm crazy for expecting the MCU's espionage guy to be cast in a espionage/investigation series when his turn came up, but I don't think its unreasonable to want to see that. Or that there somehow isn't an audience for it.
Is it a spoiler thing? I don't look for those (and don't read hollywood news of any kind), so getting baited with the opening then a hard switch to the 'Odd Couple' rather than espionage hit me pretty hard, even if everyone else in the world 'knew it' already.
I.... huh. I can't really see how the opening baits anything other than "hey, guys! This is heavily inspired by Fraction's Hawkeye run!" They use all the same visual cues as that one, they even use the same title font, there's the tracksuit gang, there's the pizza dog, there's the Kate Bishop, there's the ear help... And that run is as much the odd couple as it could possibly be.
I don't really know how that was misleading, so I'm obviously missing something, or my expectations were wildly different.
Ok, wow. Yeah, you're missing something big: that you can recite a comic run chapter and verse is not the basic expectation of comic book movies/shows. Certainly not the MCU. They (usually) want a broader audience, and don't have any expectations that you already know the story and can fill in all the details from memory.
That explains why we have such different reactions to the show. I haven't read any marvel comics for about 25 years. The details you already know; I just don't have. At all, nor any way to get them. (I mean, i could do a deep google dive at the beginning of a show, but I have zero interest in doing that, I'd much rather watch a show unfold naturally, unspoiled)
I'm reminded of a discussion of fanfiction, and how its a bad way to learn how to write, because the author doesn't learn how to do character introductions, descriptions or connective tissue, because the expectation is the fanfic audience already knows that and doesn't want to be bored or lectured with it. They just want new stories based on what they already know by heart.
Comic movies and shows can't do this. Indeed, the intent with the MCU is to intentionally avoid that and broaden the audience. There is a reason we've seen Uncle Ben and the Wayne parents die a hundred deaths, no intro or reboot can take for granted that the audience knows that stuff. For a (generously) B-list Avenger? For most people he's a blank slate. 'Bow guy' is the best knowledge base they can assume for their audience. Maybe if they've watch previous films, 'espionage guy.'
---
So coming at it knowing nothing? Its just a series of fairly pointless mcguffins. Yelena's introduction does make it better (because here's a character with some stakes beyond 'villains want to kill heroes,' though ironically her goal is murdering the hero- at least its a grounded personal one, rather than a mistaken identity farce with idiots), and retroactively adds some motivation for Natasha for endgame (her infinite sadness and suicide make a lot more sense now that we know she had a blipped sister), and makes it really clear how dirty they did Black Widow for that movie not happening until afterwards.
Of course the biggest thing about Yelena is its really clear the actress actually wants to be here. She's having fun with the role and is really engaged.
Kate's actress mostly is, but it fades at times, particularly when she's clearly lost at things like motivations and story.
Clint's actor looks entirely checked out, 100% of the time. He just wants his retirement series paycheck so he can get out of this contract.
See, i can understand why someone might argue that the plot is weak. I don't agree, but i can see where they might be coming from. But personally i get far more enjoyment from character driven narratives than plot driven. And this is character driven. Not unlike umbrella academy where the "plot" was a couple layers of nonsense that most of the characters had nothing to do with. But the CHARACTERS and their personal gak drove the show.
The argument that Jeremy Renner doesn't look like he wants to be there when clint Barton LITTERALLY doesn't want to be there is crazy to me. He is playing that character in a situation he litterally wants no part in but is trying to set things straight and protect this dumb kid who is in over her head.
Hailey Steinfeld being called lost when her character is lost and confused is equally crazy. Giving praise to Pugh for having cleae direction when her character is the character that has a solid goal she wants very much right in front of her.
It's called acting. And its happening. And that character driven element is the shows strongest points. Seeing how beat down clint is by all his losses is great and humanizing.
Maybe some of us expect more 2 dimensional stories from these characters? I am really glad to have the depth.
At this point in time, Hailee Steinfeld is an average to below average actress and she isn't getting anything special to work with in Hawkeye.
I think Clint is supposed to be over it and Renner is intentionally doing that. It makes sense for that character.
Florence Pugh gets to be an anti-hero/anti-villain as Yelena which has to be more fun than being the dreadfully earnest Kate Bishop.
Voss wrote: Ok, wow. Yeah, you're missing something big: that you can recite a comic run chapter and verse is not the basic expectation of comic book movies/shows. Certainly not the MCU. They (usually) want a broader audience, and don't have any expectations that you already know the story and can fill in all the details from memory.
And yet, in this case, it very much was, and all the promotion materials I saw leaned, heavily, on that.
Also, it's not like they're actually following any story beats from it either, just the overall feel.
I would agree it's probably not the best way to go about engaging your regular moviegoer audience, but here we are.
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trexmeyer wrote: At this point in time, Hailee Steinfeld is an average to below average actress and she isn't getting anything special to work with in Hawkeye.
Well, I don't know... she's incredibly good in Arcane as Vi's voice actress, so maybe not "average to below average". At least on that department.
I think Clint is supposed to be over it and Renner is intentionally doing that. It makes sense for that character.
yeah thats exactly it, the character is old, he's on his way out, this is his last rodeo, and he was kinda roped into it. He doesn't wanna be there, he wants to be come wit his family, celebrating christmas.
seriously if this was a westren he'd be that old cowboy pulled out of retirement by busniess he'd long forgotten about...
Haily was legit good in Bumblebee. Not that this is a high bar but she was the only tolerable human character in any live action transformers. But she wasn't JUST tolerable. She is GOOD in the movie. I was excited for her casting as Kate Bishop based on that.
Lance845 wrote: See, i can understand why someone might argue that the plot is weak. I don't agree, but i can see where they might be coming from. But personally i get far more enjoyment from character driven narratives than plot driven. And this is character driven. Not unlike umbrella academy where the "plot" was a couple layers of nonsense that most of the characters had nothing to do with. But the CHARACTERS and their personal gak drove the show.
The argument that Jeremy Renner doesn't look like he wants to be there when clint Barton LITTERALLY doesn't want to be there is crazy to me. He is playing that character in a situation he litterally wants no part in but is trying to set things straight and protect this dumb kid who is in over her head.
Hailey Steinfeld being called lost when her character is lost and confused is equally crazy. Giving praise to Pugh for having cleae direction when her character is the character that has a solid goal she wants very much right in front of her.
It's called acting. And its happening. And that character driven element is the shows strongest points. Seeing how beat down clint is by all his losses is great and humanizing.
Maybe some of us expect more 2 dimensional stories from these characters? I am really glad to have the depth.
I'd love for there to be more than 2 dimensions to anything in this show. 'Everyone is exactly as you expect them to be' and 'everything is handed over on a silver platter' is... not that. Everything is very one-note.
The dog exists to point the viewers (but not the cast) to the McGuffin and to out Kate in the Ronin outfit. Swordsman exists to hold out the sword for Clint and as a 'is she or isn't she' beard for villain mom. (we seriously joked (but not really) about that in Episode 1)
Kate has ticked through the standard phases of 'heroes' protege' of enthusiasm, doubt and renewed resolve like <obscentiy> clockwork. Same for Clint and mentorship, down to refusing the call and going right back in.
Its in the running for the most shallow, by the numbers show or movie the MCU has produced yet.
H.B.M.C. wrote: People are making the mistake of thinking that just because I'm pointing out that the show doesn't really have a story that I somehow dislike it.
I don't. I think it's fun, I like the characters, and I'm enjoying it. But it has no real story.
It has some plots, but that is mainly true. So far it seems much more interested on introducing new characters to the MCU (Maya, Fisk, Swordsman, Kate) or reinforcing new ones (Yelena, hell, even Laura) than on doing anything really interesting plot wise.
I have been enjoying the character bits of the series and I'm really fond of Fractions's comic, but this is what it is.
H.B.M.C. wrote: People are making the mistake of thinking that just because I'm pointing out that the show doesn't really have a story that I somehow dislike it.
I don't. I think it's fun, I like the characters, and I'm enjoying it. But it has no real story.
H.B.M.C. wrote: People are making the mistake of thinking that just because I'm pointing out that the show doesn't really have a story that I somehow dislike it.
I don't. I think it's fun, I like the characters, and I'm enjoying it. But it has no real story.
I'd agree with that. It's literally a show like others have said to retire Hawkeye and introduce a slew of new characters. And the new characters are well done so I'm good with it.
Also Hailee is a damn gem in this. She has been fantastic and fun and suitably over the top for someone exposed at the age she was to what she was.
Obviously Pugh is awesome and having fun with it. She WANTED this gig badly as an actress and she's good.
Overall I'm really enjoying this. I'm sad it only has a single episode left. Didn't realize it was a 6 episode run. Thought it was 8.
H.B.M.C. wrote: People are making the mistake of thinking that just because I'm pointing out that the show doesn't really have a story that I somehow dislike it.
I don't. I think it's fun, I like the characters, and I'm enjoying it. But it has no real story.
I'd agree with that. It's literally a show like others have said to retire Hawkeye and introduce a slew of new characters. And the new characters are well done so I'm good with it.
Also Hailee is a damn gem in this. She has been fantastic and fun and suitably over the top for someone exposed at the age she was to what she was.
Obviously Pugh is awesome and having fun with it. She WANTED this gig badly as an actress and she's good.
Overall I'm really enjoying this. I'm sad it only has a single episode left. Didn't realize it was a 6 episode run. Thought it was 8.
It's a christmas movie, so it ends in christmas week ^^
I think this might be a Clint reawakening? I think the point here is to come to terms with his past and maybe picking up a bit of Kate's optimism. Realizing that maybe he doesn't just have to be a weapon. That he could be more. That he COULD be a hero.
And from there maybe keep doing some more work but doing it without the baggage. The bit in the last episode where he's talking to Nat and says he's is trying to earn the chance she gave him would fit in with that. That he's taking this opportunity and not just retiring but being and doing more.
Lance845 wrote: I'm... not 100% sure this is a Clint retirement.
I think this might be a Clint reawakening? I think the point here is to come to terms with his past and maybe picking up a bit of Kate's optimism. Realizing that maybe he doesn't just have to be a weapon. That he could be more. That he COULD be a hero.
And from there maybe keep doing some more work but doing it without the baggage. The bit in the last episode where he's talking to Nat and says he's is trying to earn the chance she gave him would fit in with that. That he's taking this opportunity and not just retiring but being and doing more.
I don't think so, Clint the character has had a foot out the door since Ultron, and Renner is beginning to look tired (he's just turned 50, and it's got to be getting harder to stay in superhero shape.)
I don't think we'll get a hard retirement like Steve and Tony have (so far) received, but I think we'll see a shift to a mentor style, occasional guest star role going forward. If for no other reason than keeping the old guard too prominent doesn't allow the audience to move on or give the new characters chance to breathe.
We’re definitely seeing a building of Next Avengers.
In Hawkeye, we’re kind of seeing the Tony/Peter dynamic, though Clint is much more “sins of the father” due to the legacy of the Ronin suit.
I reckon we’re in for an intermediate period, where the Originals are still around, but shifting more to mentoring, and passing down their own lessons in the hope of creating more responsible/aware successors.
That’s not to say the existing heroes are reckless, so much as they were the first to ride their particular learning curve. They’ll have experience and even expertise that just wasn’t there to be taught beforehand.
That was a hell of a lot of fun! And again we see them taking advantage of Disney+ shows not having a particularly strict episode run time.
I think WandaVision is still the best of the bunch, especially for the fluid episode run times. I suspect it must be quite freeing for the showrunners. After all, if one chapter can be competently told in 25 minutes, they don’t need to be packing it out for syndication.
Crazy action finale go. Overall I liked it. So many trick arrows. So many more Tracksuits. Like my god that was a lot of Tracksuits.
Kingpin was…
Spoiler:
really kind of Meh. I get that he mostly wasn’t trying to fight her, just kind of dismissing her as a mere annoyance, but she really took him down pretty easily compared to the efforts it took DD. Ill be curious how he survived his apparent death, because there’s no way they brought him in just to kill him off like that. No way.
Also I loved the conclusion of the watch. So it was more a Shield thing than an Iron Man thing (for as much a difference as that makes in later stuff) but I was otherwise right about it’s purpose in the show.
There was a moment at the beginning of the episode where it looked like they might do something interesting with him. But... the moment immediately passed and they went all mob boss stereotype (with him and Kazi) to fill out the remaining run time.
Presumably his final off-screen scene involved him turning Maya into part of the landscape of that alley (and a miraculous escape on her part). After the ridiculous display of invulnerability in FAO Schwartz, a single shot from her little popgun isn't going to do squat.
Anyway, glad its over. Disappointed but not surprised.
Highlights for the episode-
Jack just being comic relief. Everyone else being exactly what they appeared to be and nothing else, down to the point of being unable to make new choices (presumably because the script said so, and it just didn't have time for character development)
The 30 minute response time for cops and emergency services to a sniper at Rockefeller center. Followed by armed gangs, explosions and more explosions. Also, the worst sniper ever (the job is not 'just keep shooting' then run down to keep sniping at point blank range until someone takes your rifle away.).
The utter destruction of Rockefeller center (by the heroes) not being addressed by... anyone.
LARP gear as appropriate attire for crowd control and aid. Rather than... their actual uniforms. The ongoing LARP 'gag' was baffling all the way through. I guess they committed to the bit, but I have no idea why.
The mid credits sequence as the worst one ever in the history of the MCU. Don't watch, you miss nothing.
Biggest surprise: Yelena not being there for the epilogue. Cheesy, but cheesy was where I thought they were going with everything at that point.
--
trexmeyer wrote: Why would you link that? No one should ever see that. That Kate/Yelena fanfiction turned my stomach at just the description.
Because the sheer quantity of queer MCU fanfiction needs to be shared. If Disney won't do it, other people absolutely will.
Besides, its not like it wasn't clear what the link was going to be. You don't have to click things. [Though I changed it to hide the NSFW stories by default. That was my bad]
I thought it would end up being some Iron Man Civil War (?) style armor that turns into a weaponized gauntlet but no such luck apparently. Just an easter egg.
The finale was ok but the build up was better in my opinion.
trexmeyer wrote: It's like rubbernecking. The accident is awful, but there is a compulsion to look. I can't believe people write or read that stuff.
Because... gays are bad? I'm not sure what you're going for here, but that's what I'm catch the edge of, due to sheer intensity of opinion (and 'turned my stomach at just the description' is an unfortunate choice of words if that isn't what you were going for).
There is a lot of awfully bad fanfic. There's also a fair amount that transcends the original authors. Learning how to sort them is definitely a skill that isn't worth a lot of people's time, but your intensity on the subject is weird. Specifically the disbelief- sometimes people just like the characters and the original author can't or won't provide. So they go looking for what they want elsewhere- they've been doing it since Kirk & Spock, and Dennis L McKiernan basically was a Tolkien fanfic writer who somehow got published around the wishes of the Tolkien estate.
trexmeyer wrote: It's like rubbernecking. The accident is awful, but there is a compulsion to look. I can't believe people write or read that stuff.
Because... gays are bad? I'm not sure what you're going for here, but that's what I'm catch the edge of, due to sheer intensity of opinion (and 'turned my stomach at just the description' is an unfortunate choice of words if that isn't what you were going for).
Are you seriously accusing me of homophobia because I don't like erotic fanfiction? LMAO
Too much fandom is focused on the idea that two women can't just be friends, or that two men can't just be friends. They simply have to be gay for one another.
Combine that with standard (READ: insane) shipper mentality that shows often breed, and we get people demanding that certain characters get together because they can't accept anything different.
trexmeyer wrote: Why would you link that? No one should ever see that. That Kate/Yelena fanfiction turned my stomach at just the description.
Because for some odd reason fanfic writers think their work matters, and because you are a despicable person if you don't support, condone, and endorse people projecting themselves into literally everything they aren't actually portrayed in. The TF fandom is far worse...
So I really enjoyed the series all the way thrugh. Episode 5 is still the highlight of the entire D+ run so far.
Spoiler:
As for the ending, the gunshot happens off screen. We have no idea what happened. It' likely the Echo Series is going to open with that exact shot except we will see what actually happened.
The reveal that his wife is likely Mockingbird is a good one. They were the comic couple for a long time. And Agents of Shield is a bad show that clearly stopped being part of the MCU almost right after the initial Hydra reveal.
For instance, the Darkhold is a different book that was in the hands of a different person. Inhumans are not all over the place. Shield isn't run by one. Or a guy pretending to be one. So on and so forth.
I think that ending leaves Clint the opportunity to gear up and get back out there again. Kate is also great as a new Hawkeye. Man her mom sucks. Great Kingpin stuff. Like like when he has to get his own hands dirty and he starts ripping car doors off.
I think Clint’s definitely done. The torch pass with the name thing at the end and him going I have an idea is a good ending and when next we see Hawkeye it’ll just be her. They’ll definitely play it off with someone saying they’re bringing Hawkeye in and we get the “surprise” reveal when she shows up instead of the expected dude. People thought we would see old Steve doing an advisor role and nope he just apparently died after Endgame. While not dead, I doubt we see Clint again as he retires to the farm to stay with his family.
Also I liked Agents of Shield. Yeah it’s definitely not MCU canon because of all their inter studio rivalries and stuff, but it was still a good show in its own right.
So we know Hawkeye and Mockingbird where members of the west coast avengers, I'm going to take a guess here and suggest that they combine the WCA and the young avengers and have Hawkeye and Mockingbird pull together a new team of younger avengers in phase 4 or 5 or so, moving out of the "action hero" role and taking a role similer to Nick fury's role in avengers
H.B.M.C. wrote: Too much fandom is focused on the idea that two women can't just be friends, or that two men can't just be friends. They simply have to be gay for one another.
Combine that with standard (READ: insane) shipper mentality that shows often breed, and we get people demanding that certain characters get together because they can't accept anything different.
I think it's less that fandom is focused on it and more that we've got 70 years of the LGBTQ community building their own niche in slash fiction and such. It's been going so long it's become an integrated part of how fandoms discuss characters and 'shipping.' EDIT: And there's a lot to be said that a lot of this stuff is also written by straight people. Pretty sure most of the lesbian ships in the Worm fandom are exclusively written by straight men for example. And oh boy isn't that a barrel of 'how do we regard that' XD
It has really only been in the past decade that we've seen gay characters become staples in fiction and that's come with subsections of people constantly bitching about their presence and the community itself arguing over whether not a portrayal was good or not.
People in fandoms are going to generate the content they want to see.
I will never understand fandoms. Why can't you enjoy something without being obsessed over it? The desire to go write your own fiction about something you watched or read seems so, for lack of a better word, childish. Why don't people want to make something new? You can be inspired by MCU, Star Wars, etc. There is zero issue with that, that is how all creation is done at this point, but at least make something that attempts to be original. Fan fiction is parasitic to me and it gets really weird when it turns into eroticism. Go outside. Touch the grass. Make some friends. Find love in the real world.
AduroT wrote: People thought we would see old Steve doing an advisor role and nope he just apparently died after Endgame.
I've always seen that as being the (in-universe) official account of what happened in Endgame (we only know 3 people saw him so they can just say he didn't make it back, which would pass the Aes Sedai "cannot lie" test ), so he'd be left to his own devices, it's not like he can advise anyone connected to world governments given his position on the Accords.
trexmeyer wrote: I will never understand fandoms. Why can't you enjoy something without being obsessed over it? The desire to go write your own fiction about something you watched or read seems so, for lack of a better word, childish. Why don't people want to make something new? You can be inspired by MCU, Star Wars, etc. There is zero issue with that, that is how all creation is done at this point, but at least make something that attempts to be original. Fan fiction is parasitic to me and it gets really weird when it turns into eroticism. Go outside. Touch the grass. Make some friends. Find love in the real world.
"Fan" is short for "Fanatic" and like all fanatics, they have their share of zealots, too (the zealots concern themselves with how "canon" everything is, and rival a carnival of cardinals for "enthusiasm"). Every group has them.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Not to mention, sometimes it's the only way to get LGBTQ representation in a work is shipping.
eh I'm just glad Anthoy Mackle called it out, frankly the whole "lol they're friends? MAKE THEM GAY FOR EACH OTHER" is absolutely toxic. it sends the message that you can't have friends, without it being romantic. this can lead to some VEEEERY toxic behavior
Historians are having fething migraines of late over proposals that X and Y were gay based on X and Y living together or being close, often with little regard for context, cultural change, or even the fairly obvious in some cases. In some cases, the criticism isn't actually all that off. There's a few figures that are pretty clearly in some kind of relationship and it sure looks like it's with each other and historians claiming otherwise are living in denial and arguing against a weight of evidence that supports that conclusion. But there's also the reverse problem where we have people who just really don't know what they're talking about trying to make something from nothing so the whole thing is a very headache-inducing mess.
Fandom does do the same thing where almost any positive interaction between two characters can and will be taken as some subtle sign that they're secret in love. I'm not going to bother going into 'queercoding' which is mostly making circular arguments and ignoring the text to propose an alternate version of the media in question where the only valid reading is 'they're queer' and anything else is just plain wrong (and that entire argument is almost always bs on some level). So yeah, there's this really dumb trend here but that too I think has simply become baked into how fans discuss the things they like after decades of 'alternate take' being the bread and butter of fanfiction.
It doesn't help that some media goes out of its way to produce that effect because some creators have realized shipping can be very very good for business.
Looking at you Star vs the Forces of Evil you knew exactly what you were doing!
LordofHats wrote: Historians are having fething migraines of late over proposals that X and Y were gay based on X and Y living together or being close, often with little regard for context, cultural change, or even the fairly obvious in some cases. In some cases, the criticism isn't actually all that off. There's a few figures that are pretty clearly in some kind of relationship and it sure looks like it's with each other and historians claiming otherwise are living in denial and arguing against a weight of evidence that supports that conclusion. But there's also the reverse problem where we have people who just really don't know what they're talking about trying to make something from nothing so the whole thing is a very headache-inducing mess.
Fandom does do the same thing where almost any positive interaction between two characters can and will be taken as some subtle sign that they're secret in love. I'm not going to bother going into 'queercoding' which is mostly making circular arguments and ignoring the text to propose an alternate version of the media in question where the only valid reading is 'they're queer' and anything else is just plain wrong (and that entire argument is almost always bs on some level). So yeah, there's this really dumb trend here but that too I think has simply become baked into how fans discuss the things they like after decades of 'alternate take' being the bread and butter of fanfiction.
It doesn't help that some media goes out of its way to produce that effect because some creators have realized shipping can be very very good for business.
Looking at you Star vs the Forces of Evil you knew exactly what you were doing!
Man, don't even bring up Star. I was super disappointed how the last season went. They literally threw away the plot for the purpose of shipping. Toffee was a great villain when he was first introduced and then they just threw that away by saying, "Lol, turns out Toffee was right y'all, magic am bad", not to mention the whole exploration of how he lost his pinky being the show's equivalent of how Nick Fury lost his eye.
Yeah. Show really went off the rails. Good example of how trying to cater to shippers probably hurt the media in question more than helped it.
If I were to offer a counterexample the best is probably League of Legends, which will tease characters constantly and they know exactly what they're doing and it's made them a lot of money because fanfiction can become millions in free advertising.
And to round us back to the topic, comic books suffer from this too. How many times have two characters married because the writer decided they liked a certain ship, only for another writer to come along a couple years later and retcon it because they didn't like it? Spider-Man and Cyclops both come to mind. Comic books are kind of a weird case, because they've been around long enough that the people writing them are 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th generation fans of the medium.
LordofHats wrote: Yeah. Show really went off the rails. Good example of how trying to cater to shippers probably hurt the media in question more than helped it.
If I were to offer a counterexample the best is probably League of Legends, which will tease characters constantly and they know exactly what they're doing and it's made them a lot of money because fanfiction can become millions in free advertising.
And to round us back to the topic, comic books suffer from this too. How many times have two characters married because the writer decided they liked a certain ship, only for another writer to come along a couple years later and retcon it because they didn't like it? Spider-Man and Cyclops both come to mind. Comic books are kind of a weird case, because they've been around long enough that the people writing them are 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th generation fans of the medium.
Definitely. One More Day was terrible and took away years of Peter's character development with his relationship with Mary Jane. Making him single again really didn't add anything and their character assassination of Black Cat in the process was even worse (especially since I originally was pro-Felicia over MJ before he finally tied the knot). Cyclops is just weird because he keeps being passed along a string of psychics that span from Jean Grey, Psylocke and Emma Frost to a bunch of others I've lost track off. I feel like when people want to go in and change things that it's better to go for a completely different universe and start fresh there like the Ultimate universe, versus playing around with the established canon because reasons. Alas, the genie came out of that bottle a long time ago. Definitely one of the things that some manga have over American comics is that at some point it usually ends, barring very few exceptions like Detective Conan and I think One Piece so far. And there's a lot more respect for the original material from the creator as far as I can tell.
trexmeyer wrote: I will never understand fandoms. Why can't you enjoy something without being obsessed over it? The desire to go write your own fiction about something you watched or read seems so, for lack of a better word, childish. Why don't people want to make something new? You can be inspired by MCU, Star Wars, etc. There is zero issue with that, that is how all creation is done at this point, but at least make something that attempts to be original. Fan fiction is parasitic to me and it gets really weird when it turns into eroticism. Go outside. Touch the grass. Make some friends. Find love in the real world.
Here is the thing, for fledgling writers, fanfiction can help alot, you have established characters and motivations that you can play around with unique.
But also, its enjoyable.
The vast majority of popular media today is officially-sanctioned fanficiton anyway; people just don't like mentioning it because it breaks the charade of legitimacy.
Flipsiders wrote: The vast majority of popular media today is officially-sanctioned fanficiton anyway; people just don't like mentioning it because it breaks the charade of legitimacy.
Yes, it is and it is responsible for many drops in quality with few exceptions.
It's one thing to use a setting and expand upon it (see Star Wars EU, every tabletop RPG ever). It's an entirely other thing to take preexisting characters and write your own adventures with them.
The MCU works because they successfully made comics palatable to the masses, but honestly 99% of Marvel/DC comics are likely fan faction at this point.
LordofHats wrote: Yeah. Show really went off the rails. Good example of how trying to cater to shippers probably hurt the media in question more than helped it.
If I were to offer a counterexample the best is probably League of Legends, which will tease characters constantly and they know exactly what they're doing and it's made them a lot of money because fanfiction can become millions in free advertising.
And to round us back to the topic, comic books suffer from this too. How many times have two characters married because the writer decided they liked a certain ship, only for another writer to come along a couple years later and retcon it because they didn't like it? Spider-Man and Cyclops both come to mind. Comic books are kind of a weird case, because they've been around long enough that the people writing them are 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th generation fans of the medium.
Definitely. One More Day was terrible and took away years of Peter's character development with his relationship with Mary Jane. Making him single again really didn't add anything and their character assassination of Black Cat in the process was even worse (especially since I originally was pro-Felicia over MJ before he finally tied the knot). Cyclops is just weird because he keeps being passed along a string of psychics that span from Jean Grey, Psylocke and Emma Frost to a bunch of others I've lost track off. I feel like when people want to go in and change things that it's better to go for a completely different universe and start fresh there like the Ultimate universe, versus playing around with the established canon because reasons. Alas, the genie came out of that bottle a long time ago. Definitely one of the things that some manga have over American comics is that at some point it usually ends, barring very few exceptions like Detective Conan and I think One Piece so far. And there's a lot more respect for the original material from the creator as far as I can tell.
Here is the thing. The writer of One More Day has said that he hates that story. It wasn't his story. He was mandated to write that particular plot. He did the dialog. He helped set the pacing and such. But the plot was written by committee wanting to restore a status quo.
Worse than committee. OMD was railroaded by then editor and chief to the point where he drew the book himself to make sure it was done the way he wanted.
Episodes 1-2, we learn next to nothing.
Episode 3, the short one where it feels like 2 acts out of a 3 act story. Ends on a cliffhanger.
Episode 4, table setting and a reveal of who the actual bad guy is.
Episode 5, flashback episode that fills in the gaps but doesn't get back to the main story at all.
Episode 6, conclusion with lots of punching.
And when all is said and done it still won't hold a candle to Peacemaker.
In the comics they have now tied Kang the Conqueror's backstory with Konshu far into the past. A young Kang and a female Moon Knight are in love. While I doubt they will use this story specifically (it also involves Apocalypse vs Rama-tut) I doubt it is a coincidence that it comes as both Kang and moon Knight are being introduced to the MCU.
Looks OK but the accent is already annoying me, probably way more than it should. Did Hollywood suddenly run out of British actors?
It'll be interesting to see the angle they go with and how long they leave the "mystery" intact. I can it going either way at the moment with being really slow and plodding or not.
Marc Spector isn't British. One of his multiple personalities thinks he is.
I am pumped for this one! Moon Knight continues to be the series I am most excited for.
It looks like at least one of the bad guys might be the Sun King? Either thats Sun King being worshipped or that guy is some kind of manifestation of Khonshu.
Despite really wanting to, I've never quite clicked with Moon Knight. Can't say the CGI costume has me too hyped for this one, but the insomnia/multiple personality thing feels well done and could easily make for a great show. Expecting to enjoy it, and the MCU shows have proven to not overstay their welcome which is what usually kills a show for me more than anything.
Lance845 wrote: Marc Spector isn't British. One of his multiple personalities thinks he is.
This. If you watch the trailer again there a few parts where you hear him talking and sounding completely different.
I'm with you on this LunarSol. Don't really have a dislike for Moon Knight but never really grabbed me in the comics. Of course that is why there are lots of different stories and characters.
Moon Knight is essentially the Marvel equivalent of Hawkman/Hawkgirl. Characters who have never quite worked so authors keep getting the chance to try and completely reinvent them and nothing works. Now their backstory is such a convoluted mess that its become the meta narrative that gives them their niche.
LunarSol wrote: Moon Knight is essentially the Marvel equivalent of Hawkman/Hawkgirl. Characters who have never quite worked so authors keep getting the chance to try and completely reinvent them and nothing works. Now their backstory is such a convoluted mess that its become the meta narrative that gives them their niche.
Ehhh... thats not exactly true. Hawkman and Hawkgirl have their single destined for love and to die and be separated bit. It's a flat story that doesn't really have anywhere to go. It's why they don't really work. Because what are you going to do with them? Now you can take ONE of them and do something interesting. Hawkgirl in the DCAU Justice league for example, but it leaves the other one high and dry. The 2 characters are just too flat when both present.
But Moonknight is a character with a decent enough comic back story (it's no dumber than a radioactive spider or a deal with the devil).who has just been underutilized for decades. There is no reason you couldn't have a good writer come on and tell a good Moonknight story (and they have) but writers are often just more focused on other characters so he sits on the sidelines. You could say the same for most characters. There are occasional great Ghost Rider stories, but not many or ongoing. Some good Daredevil stories, but how many really stand out?
The destined lovers thing is exactly what I'm talking about. It was added much later to explain why sometimes they were archeologists, and sometimes they were space cops and sometimes they were.... a bunch of other things that didn't really work.
Moon Knight is similar. He's been reworked several times over with the "he's crazy" angle added later to try and tie it all together. Honestly, the main problem I've seen with the character is just that no one has really worked out the full package with him. He's never had a memorable supporting cast or set of villains. He always ends up as a Batman clone that replaces all of the substance that makes Batman interesting with superficial ultra violence and edge.
I think Moon Knight is going to end up being fairly important down the line for the MCU. There are some important characters coming up that deal with Egypt and specifically, ancient Egypt. Kang and eventually when the X-Men are added, Apocalypse is unavoidable if they are going to do the X-Men any sort of justice.
The MCU is definitely not casting a character for the sake of one series. He is going to be playing a part in whatever stuff they have coming up over the next 10 year big story.
LunarSol wrote: Moon Knight is essentially the Marvel equivalent of Hawkman/Hawkgirl.
I thought he was Ersatz Batman?
Oh, he's totally a Batman rip off, some of his personalities more than others. I'm only comparing him to the Hawks in the sense that they've both been reinvented to the point where their incoherent backstory is now the gimmick that defines their backstory. Hawks have multiple reincarnations, Moon Knight has multiple personalities. Both are a result of authors never quite finding a status quo for the character that elevates them out of C-listers.
I'm excited, as I've always been a Moon Knight fan, but I hope it doesn't go too far down the road the trailer makes it look like they will, if that makes sense?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I know very little about Moonknight, with a lot of what I do know coming from this thread.
Wonder if that might improve my experience compared to others more familiar with the source material.
I doubt it matters much. The only consistent thing about Moon Knight is that he's frustratingly inconsistent. I think the people most primed to be disappointed are the ones that think Dracula owes him money.
I think they will end up on Disney+, maybe not yet though. Probably add them during a content drought. I think they want to add some of those characters to the MCU. That might have something to do with it.
That Strange trailer has me worried. Looks like another Eternals, where it needed to be a series with an additional 3-4 hours of runtime to establish what's going on and why anyone should care.
Preferably without having needed to watch Spiderboy 3.
I wouldn’t say All the characters are established. We’ve got a Shuma Gorath, and I believe I spotted an America Chavez, both of whom haven’t appeared in the MCU yet.
AduroT wrote: I wouldn’t say All the characters are established. We’ve got a Shuma Gorath, and I believe I spotted an America Chavez, both of whom haven’t appeared in the MCU yet.
Every movie introduces new characters. That doesn't make it Eternals.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I suspect they’ve got quite a lot riding on this one.
Between it and No Way Home, we are of course seeing a concerted effort to stitch the various existing film series together, expanding the MCU Sandpit.
NWH showed the possibility, and seems pretty well received. But this one? Oh boy. It’s not at all often I’m pessimistic (just my idiot nature) but I think this is gonna be either an Absolute Triumph, or a Massive Damp Squib, which could endanger the overall cohesion of what is yet to come.
I’m confident it’ll be the former though. But….you never know.
One of my favourite things about MCU trailers is just how often they’re somewhat misleading. Not in a rug pull way, more a “we’re keeping stuff secret, look at this particular monkey”.
In the pic above, I figured it was Danvers. But, with a pretty simply CGI reskinning, it could be anyone. So what we’ve just seen isn’t necessarily what we’re gonna get.
I know others find such Naughty Fibs irritating, and I can appreciate that. But I find them somewhat enjoyable.
Marvel trailers straight lie on occasion. Showing Hulk at the battle of Wakanda for example, plus messing with which gems Thanos actually had in any given scene. They do do it in a good way though.
AduroT wrote: Marvel trailers straight lie on occasion. Showing Hulk at the battle of Wakanda for example, plus messing with which gems Thanos actually had in any given scene. They do do it in a good way though.
The big one was probably Thor's eye in Asgard along with a few shots of Mjolnir past the point it exists. I do quite like the way they do these, as they in no way sell you on a different movie than what you get, but they keep the surprises intact.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Looks nothing like Eternals, and all these characters are already established.
Ok, wow. No idea how you made that jump- I said nothing about characters.
Just that its a big sprawling plot with multiple locations, and like Eternals, will probably need more time than its given to establish any reason to care about... whatever is going on.
A frantic mishmash of CGI action scenes doesn't promise anything but a really poorly paced but oddly dull story.
It doesn't help that its building on one of the more mediocre MCU films- Strange 1 was a somewhat plodding show with too much backstory and not enough reason to care about the characters- especially the non-entity passing as a 'villain'
AduroT wrote: Marvel trailers straight lie on occasion. Showing Hulk at the battle of Wakanda for example, plus messing with which gems Thanos actually had in any given scene. They do do it in a good way though.
The big one was probably Thor's eye in Asgard along with a few shots of Mjolnir past the point it exists. I do quite like the way they do these, as they in no way sell you on a different movie than what you get, but they keep the surprises intact.
Most trailers are put together by other companies that have nothing to do with the movies production.
I am pretty sure Marvel is one of if not the first studio to take control of their own trailers to hide what they want to and present what they want to without ruining the big bits of the movies.
Is Ironfist S2 worth a go ? its the only gap* in my Netflix Telly Universe as dont have D plus atm as waiting for a backlog to build up, or at least Moon Knight and Ahsoka
*or I might have watched it and just forgot, which might be worse
Eh. I'd say S2 is better than S1 in a couple ways, I think Jones does better with the role and I think it benefits from being better established as part of the Defenders-verse Netflix were building.
However, better than S1 is a pretty low bar to clear.
I struggled to get through Jessica Jones and Iron Fist. Then I stopped watching the Netflix shows after episode 2 or 3 of Defenders. It just wasn't good. Didn't watch anything else after that. Was anything else worth checking out? I was thinking I should eventually get to Daredevil s3, but would I have to finish Defenders to make it worthwhile?
Daredevil 3 seems self contained enough to not worry about Defenders. I didn't get a chance to finish it but its been on my list for a while.
Jessica Jones 1 I feel is the best of the bunch, but the sophomore season is a massive drop in quality. Really disappointed in that one.
Luke Cage season one starts strong and ends pretty weak. The second season starts really weak and ends really strong. Sadly that means there's a very mediocre season in the middle of two excellent halves.
Didn't watch Iron Fist 1 or 2. Defenders is really like an Iron Fist crossover with Daredevil season 2, which is easily the low point of that series.
Punisher didn't hook me, but people that like it seem to really like it.
Yeah, of the Netflix Marvel shows IF was probably overall the worst and S2 is only marginally better than S1. Looking back on them all now I'd say Daredevil and Punisher are the only one that I'd watch again all the way through. Jessica Jones S1 is possibly the best single season of the shows they did though.
The world would be a better place if Defenders never existed.
New Ms Marvel trailer is up, with release date of early June. Definitely looks like they've revised her power set somewhat, but I can see how this way will look slightly less daft on screen (and maybe keeps it visually better distinguished from Mr Fantastic down the road?)
It'll be very interesting to see what they do with her powers in general. Will they be tied more directly with Carol? Will they have any Inhumans connection still?
Definitely a little disappointing, as her comic powers are a lot of fun and this feels like all the bad attempts to make things "realistic" from darker days of comic movies. That said, it seems like they get the heart of the character, so there's still a good chance that Kamala's core appeal remains firmly intact.
Ms. Marvel?? I will get hate for saying this and while I may be alone in my camp, the trailer seems to reek of similarities to RR's Green Lantern. Ugh... just, ugh...
They can circle around again, I'm pretty sure the Marvel Studios stuff is excommunicated now, so that... show.. didn't happen in this continuity.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MDSW wrote: Ms. Marvel?? I will get hate for saying this and while I may be alone in my camp, the trailer seems to reek of similarities to RR's Green Lantern. Ugh... just, ugh...
I don't think you'll get hate so much as a lot of people wondering how you leaped so far apparently on the basis of one big hand made out of energy.
New Ms Marvel trailer is up, with release date of early June. Definitely looks like they've revised her power set somewhat, but I can see how this way will look slightly less daft on screen (and maybe keeps it visually better distinguished from Mr Fantastic down the road?)
Am I the only one who saw the 'bracelet(s)' at the 0:58 mark and thought of the Nega-Bands?
Azreal13 wrote: They can circle around again, I'm pretty sure the Marvel Studios stuff is excommunicated now, so that... show.. didn't happen in this continuity.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MDSW wrote: Ms. Marvel?? I will get hate for saying this and while I may be alone in my camp, the trailer seems to reek of similarities to RR's Green Lantern. Ugh... just, ugh...
I don't think you'll get hate so much as a lot of people wondering how you leaped so far apparently on the basis of one big hand made out of energy.
I kind of like the power tweak, GL style energy constructs / extensions seems like it'll be better on a (sizeable) telly budget over stretching, and whilst I don't think it'll be my cup of tea at least it isnt Squirrel Girl...
She dons that bracelet with a purple crystal on it, so I feel quite confident in saying that is the source of her powers. What It’s origins are, who knows. Her powers are varying further from the comics than I expected. I figured it would just be like the big purple hand type of stuff to replace stretchyness, but we see her using free standing force fields to walk thru the air and stop a hail of bullets so who knows. I’m choosing to remain cautiously optimistic because the Marvel Studios stuff has yet to let me down.
AduroT wrote: She dons that bracelet with a purple crystal on it, so I feel quite confident in saying that is the source of her powers. What It’s origins are, who knows. Her powers are varying further from the comics than I expected. I figured it would just be like the big purple hand type of stuff to replace stretchyness, but we see her using free standing force fields to walk thru the air and stop a hail of bullets so who knows. I’m choosing to remain cautiously optimistic because the Marvel Studios stuff has yet to let me down.
Postulation. Based on Shang-Chi? Spoilered for extra caution and care.
Spoiler:
At the end of Shang-Chi, we see Wong et al analysing the 10 Rings, and realising they’re unlike anything they’ve seen before. I suspect Ms Marvel’s bracers might be part of a new “infinity stone” chase set?
New Ms Marvel trailer is up, with release date of early June. Definitely looks like they've revised her power set somewhat, but I can see how this way will look slightly less daft on screen (and maybe keeps it visually better distinguished from Mr Fantastic down the road?)
Am I the only one who saw the 'bracelet(s)' at the 0:58 mark and thought of the Nega-Bands?
I was thinking Quantum Bands.
Overall the trailer looks fine. I don't have much, if any, connection to the character, so I have no expectations either way.
I actually have no problem with it. I've seen some of Stargirl, and this gives the same feel. Stargirl's superpowers are...what? Being perky and having a magic staff?
Azreal13 wrote: Definitely looks like they've revised her power set somewhat...
"Somewhat"? From this she doesn't have powers, but has special bracelets that give her powers.
Yeah, I'm not really a fan of that. Especially on such a young (young looking? I'm not sure how old she's supposed to be) character. Maybe leave the life and death craziness to adults, not (metaphorical) child soldiers? With innate powers, there's a no choice angle that makes it a little less actively disturbing, but if its just Super Bracelets, pass that along to a responsible adult that can handle the trauma that comes with the territory?
The comic book-y drawings over the school portions are bit... eh. I passed on Tom Holland because he was young and annoying with it, and while she looks less hyper and isn't set up screeching into a phone the way he was, 'coming of age' hero stories are among my least favorite tropes.
The important thing is what genre they place a Marvel product in, and I think we can firmly see which genre this one goes in. I got a lot of Scott Pilgrim vs The World and Diary of a Wimpy Kid vibes from it. That means a coming of age/Teen comedy genre which I am happy to have; even if I will probably not be the target audience.
No real clear sign on who the "Baddies" are either, unless I missed something that was really obvious to everyone else.
Extra points if Marvel manages to fit in another Bollywood style dance number in one of their products. However, I have a feeling it will be more like a "Prom" style dance number from something like 13 going on 30 instead. It is a staple of the genre they are aping.
Wandavision is a fun ride. Plus you don't have to wait a week between episodes.
I do like Disney+ releasing episodes one week at a time. Gives people time to get caught up and be able to speculate inbetween. Reminds me of what it was like watching Lost back in the day.
Oscar Isaacs was quoted as saying he drew inspiration from Russell Brand and it's apparent within the first 10 minutes.
Spoiler:
He dragged the Jackal-thing back in haha. Not sure if that was meant to be funny, but damn, they managed to actually make the monster looked panicked. Interesting intro episode.
Easy E wrote: Man, I just started watching Wandavision..... I am so far behind. :(
You're only just behind me, I just finished Wandavision.
I'd been holding out hope that Disney would break the habit of a lifetime and put some of this stuff out on DVD, but that's looking increasingly unlikely, so streaming it is.
trexmeyer wrote: Oscar Isaacs was quoted as saying he drew inspiration from Russell Brand and it's apparent within the first 10 minutes.
Spoiler:
He dragged the Jackal-thing back in haha. Not sure if that was meant to be funny, but damn, they managed to actually make the monster looked panicked. Interesting intro episode.
Weird. Because the character (who may or may not be a cover Moonknight invented for himself?) has some level of charm and charisma. And not once did he pop up to extol the evils of capitalism, but only when you’ve a tawdry, poorly written book on the subject, available for £14.99, £29.99 if signed, from all good High Street Bookshops and Online Global Websites, nor did he do an entire stand up set talking solely about himself and how wonderful he is, nor spend frankly staggering amounts of money on a self indulgent, short lived wedding including Elephants and that to a pop tart?
Has….has he seen Russell Brand, or only seen his picture in a Who’s Who Of Overexposed Z Listers?
Easy E wrote: Man, I just started watching Wandavision..... I am so far behind. :(
You're only just behind me, I just finished Wandavision.
I'd been holding out hope that Disney would break the habit of a lifetime and put some of this stuff out on DVD, but that's looking increasingly unlikely, so streaming it is.
Marvel have released box sets for each phase of the MCU. I don't buy any physical copies of Marvel stuff till the box sets come out. I am hoping all these D+ shows will be in the phase 4 box set.
Neat first episode, mostly just curious how it holds up long term. Moon Knight has always struggled a bit to develop anything as cool as the build up and this was some really neat build up.
Yep, still really enjoying episode two. This is why I’m still cautiously optimistic about Ms Marvel despite the changes to the character, because the MCU has yet to truly disappoint me, even when they deal with really weird stuff.
There are background elements. The double decker bus in the background has GRC banners on it. GRC being the organization that kind of made the Flag Smashers.
I still can't bring myself to watch the hawk/bucky series, but enjoying moonknight silliness. Hope they continue to emphasis that element and continue to subvert the now frankly boring MCU fistfights.
Winter Falcon is good. It’s definitely on the lower end of the scale for me, but that’s really just because of how “normal” it is compared to the outrageousness of the other series.
AduroT wrote: Winter Falcon is good. It’s definitely on the lower end of the scale for me, but that’s really just because of how “normal” it is compared to the outrageousness of the other series.
The more time has gone on, the more I look at Winter Falcon and feel kind of disappointed in it.
You really can see the mold lines where the plot was altered as a result of COVID-19 and it hurts how smooth the plot of the series unfolds. The ending where the hero talks down to the paper pushers and says 'do better' also feels somewhat tone-deaf in more ways than one. It reminds me of the episode of Family Guy where Quagmire gives the reason you suck speech to Brian and the gist of it is that talking about the right thing is cheap compared to doing anything about anything and the ending of Winter Falcon kind of exemplifies that attitude of talking about the right thing while not really doing anything about the problem (other than punching some bad guys and stuff, which doesn't really change the underlying problem it just gives a bunch of people reacting to it in an extreme way black eyes).
Anyway, I guess I'm saying that I'm not sure anyone is missing out by skipping the show. The only important bit really is that Falcon has the shield and Bucky is dealing with his trauma. All pertinent information for future entries for the characters is now in your possession :/
Oh, and this dude straight up murders/not murders a guy, everyone makes a big deal about how horrible it is for a few minutes, and then nobody talks about it ever again or seems to care XD
You can definitely see where COVID hit that show. The big speech was definitely intended for a big committee room instead of ambushing one guy on the streets. All of the wrap up scenes taking place in big empty rooms with like 1-2 extras on the complete opposite side of things is very telling (I LOVE Bucky's psychiatrist ending in a literal empty room with a desk for some reason but no decorations?). It ends the series on a somewhat disappointing note, but I really enjoyed most of it.
Ep2 of Moon Knight continued to be a lot of fun. Great to see how they slipped in the detective suit and a pretty well staged fight, even if its not the most memorable action. I'm still not sure if you can do much beyond this sort of supporting personality origin story thing, but I plan to enjoy it while it lasts.
One of the things I find interesting is this is the first time in the MCU that we are seeing the leaping across the roof tops style of super heroics.
Yes, Spiderman is swinging around the city. But we haven't had a Daredevil, Moonknight, etc... type character running around and doing crazy city fights. And nobody has worn a cape until now. This is the most classically superhero super heroics we have gotten so far.
AduroT wrote: Doctor Strange and Thor both have worn capes.
Thats true! Good call.
Maybe it's their aesthetic that made me gloss over them in my mind. Their capes fit their mold of wizard and norse god. With Moon Knight this feels more like a Batman or Superman. The cape isn't his clothes. It's his costume. Thats probably not a great distinction but thats probably where the line is being drawn in my mind.
Strange’s cape is purely function. He wears it because it serves a purpose. Moon Knight wears it because he thinks he’s supposed to I guess, given we’ve seen the suit takes the form the wearer believes it should. Thor’s cape is pretty strictly the fashion of his culture. They wear capes, it’s normal for them.
AduroT wrote: Winter Falcon is good. It’s definitely on the lower end of the scale for me, but that’s really just because of how “normal” it is compared to the outrageousness of the other series.
The more time has gone on, the more I look at Winter Falcon and feel kind of disappointed in it.
You really can see the mold lines where the plot was altered as a result of COVID-19 and it hurts how smooth the plot of the series unfolds. The ending where the hero talks down to the paper pushers and says 'do better' also feels somewhat tone-deaf in more ways than one. It reminds me of the episode of Family Guy where Quagmire gives the reason you suck speech to Brian and the gist of it is that talking about the right thing is cheap compared to doing anything about anything and the ending of Winter Falcon kind of exemplifies that attitude of talking about the right thing while not really doing anything about the problem (other than punching some bad guys and stuff, which doesn't really change the underlying problem it just gives a bunch of people reacting to it in an extreme way black eyes).
Anyway, I guess I'm saying that I'm not sure anyone is missing out by skipping the show. The only important bit really is that Falcon has the shield and Bucky is dealing with his trauma. All pertinent information for future entries for the characters is now in your possession :/
Oh, and this dude straight up murders/not murders a guy, everyone makes a big deal about how horrible it is for a few minutes, and then nobody talks about it ever again or seems to care XD
Falcon/Winter Soldier is really... stupid. I'd like to like it more, but so much of it is stupid. Why was Power Broker using a random crew of not really well trained mercenaries lead by a 19 year old? In the end Karli has a fight with US Agent and they're both super soldiers at that point, he was a top physical specimen and well trained combatant before the serum, so how did he not wipe the floor with her? A bank denying a small business loan to an Avenger is a terrible business idea. Falcon could have set up a Go Fund Me and raked in the cash. Peggy Carter's niece becoming a super-villain is annoying. No one recognizes Bucky, even though he was all over the news a few years earlier for supposedly bombing a UN meeting. Everyone recognizes Sam. Sam gave up the shield that Steve SPECIFICALLY gave to him and everyone is really emotional about the shield, but we don't even actually know if it is his original shield since we know that was severely damaged. Where that shield came from, or if it is the original, how it got repaired are huge question that we have no answer for yet. Sam is not super strong, he's a normal guy. He'd have been crushed between the armored car and his jetpack at the end. When Bucky and Sam first encounter Karli they think she's a hostage because she was sitting alone in the back of a cargo truck. Why was she even back there? The Flagsmashers have two trucks and Bucky runs between them, jumps on the back of a truck and opens the door. What was the driver of the 2nd truck doing that he didn't see this happening? Using wingsuits to glide into helicopters is incredibly stupid. Why doesn't Karli tell Sam about the Power Broker at the end?
Power Broker Sharon Carter is very likely a Skrull. I am calling that now. We know Secret Invasion is coming and a Skrull making all the moves Power Broker Carter did to get into all the positions of power she has makes perfect sense.
Secret Invasion seems odd because we’ve so far been shown the Skrull to be sympathetic characters who were actually the oppressed and who work with the humans now.
We have seen a small faction of Skrulls who were sympathetic.
The Skrulls of comic Secret Invasion are religious fanatics who believe Earth is their prophesied new home world.
Talos and crew is less then the population of a town. The Skrulls as a race are a space faring race. Even if their total population is say.... that of America. Consider how many reasonable logical American's there are versus fanatics of this faction or that who would make moves the others are ashamed of.
Lance845 wrote: One of the things I find interesting is this is the first time in the MCU that we are seeing the leaping across the roof tops style of super heroics.
Yes, Spiderman is swinging around the city. But we haven't had a Daredevil, Moonknight, etc... type character running around and doing crazy city fights. And nobody has worn a cape until now. This is the most classically superhero super heroics we have gotten so far.
Sam gave up the shield that Steve SPECIFICALLY gave to him and everyone is really emotional about the shield, but we don't even actually know if it is his original shield since we know that was severely damaged. Where that shield came from, or if it is the original, how it got repaired are huge question that we have no answer for yet. Sam is not super strong, he's a normal guy. He'd have been crushed between the armored car and his jetpack at the end.
The shield is still technically the (an?) original shield, because it's the one "old" Steve showed up with at the end of Infinity War, from a timeline where he evidently never had to fight Thanos in a similar fashion to get it destroyed. Or something timey-wimey, because Marvel time-travel hurts my head even more than normal time travel.
Sam didn't get crushed by the armored car/jetpack because the suit he is wearing is all Wakandan tech. It evidently boosts him up to super-soldier levels of strength and resistance. (Only stupid part is the exposed sections of his head, but that's a whole separate rabbit-hole.)
As for Moon Knight, I REALLY like it so far! It's different enough to be interesting. As someone who has no prior knowledge of the character, I like how it deals with a character who (at least at the moment) has an alternate form, AND an alter ego.
Plus, like some have said online, if this show is actually part of the MCU, it officially would be the first existence of deity-styled forces, as in actual old-Earth gods like the Greek Gods in the DC universe. Everything up to this point has just been aliens or extra-dimensional, or both. Even in Shang-Chi and Iron Fist, things like the dragons are extradimensional beings.
Vision wears a cape because Thor wears a cape. There’s a thing there from Thor saving him and vouching for him and being the first person he sees so Vision emulates him.
If Wakanda likes you and they give you cool tech or a suit, it’s probably at least laced with Vibranium, so he’s pretty much indestructible other than headshots.
Plus, like some have said online, if this show is actually part of the MCU, it officially would be the first existence of deity-styled forces, as in actual old-Earth gods like the Greek Gods in the DC universe. Everything up to this point has just been aliens or extra-dimensional, or both. Even in Shang-Chi and Iron Fist, things like the dragons are extradimensional beings.
The MCU is big on the "sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" angle. Even if he's not called out as an extra-dimensional alien or something, I think at this point that's largely semantics.
AduroT wrote: Strange’s cape is purely function. He wears it because it serves a purpose. Moon Knight wears it because he thinks he’s supposed to I guess, given we’ve seen the suit takes the form the wearer believes it should. Thor’s cape is pretty strictly the fashion of his culture. They wear capes, it’s normal for them.
In the comics, Moon Knight's cape can be used as a glider (much like we saw Spider-Man gliding at the end of 'Far From Home').
Easy E wrote: Man, I just started watching Wandavision..... I am so far behind. :(
You're only just behind me, I just finished Wandavision.
I'd been holding out hope that Disney would break the habit of a lifetime and put some of this stuff out on DVD, but that's looking increasingly unlikely, so streaming it is.
It's not Disney precisely, but the old Netflix stuff is coming out on DVD here. Of course, Japan is strangely behind in home electronics-- a lot of people still have FAX machines at home, and pager service was available until 2020.
Easy E wrote: Man, I just started watching Wandavision..... I am so far behind. :(
You're only just behind me, I just finished Wandavision.
I'd been holding out hope that Disney would break the habit of a lifetime and put some of this stuff out on DVD, but that's looking increasingly unlikely, so streaming it is.
It's not Disney precisely, but the old Netflix stuff is coming out on DVD here. Of course, Japan is strangely behind in home electronics-- a lot of people still have FAX machines at home, and pager service was available until 2020.
I've seen the occasional Netflix (And Amazon) show end up on DVD.
Even though Disney have always been bad at giving their shows a physical release, I didn't think they would permanently lock up big chunks of 2 of their biggest franchises in their streaming service (Especially as the new Dr. Strange film seems to be relying a bit on people watching WandaVision first).
I guess they're just expecting everyone who really follows the MCU will sign up eventually.
Well, particularly in the U.K. where we benefit from Star, Disney+ is pretty good value. Even if you just want to binge and ditch, MCU stuff can be done comfortably in a month.
aku-chan wrote: (Especially as the new Dr. Strange film seems to be relying a bit on people watching WandaVision first).
I guess they're just expecting everyone who really follows the MCU will sign up eventually.
I got the exact opposite impression. Wanda thinks Strange wants to talk about Westview, but he dismisses it in a sentence.
I imagine anything from Wandavision that the audience needs to know will be summarised in the film. This, in turn, will make the TV shows exactly what I thought they'd end up being: Vital parts of the MCU story that aren't really all that vital.
Wait 'til the next Captain America film, where they summarised Falcon/Winter Soldier in a single "Yeah I'm Cap now" in a throwaway line.
Nothing has ever been vital to the plot of an MCU movie. They all stand on their own pretty well. It's a big part of why the series has continued where so many other attempts have failed.
Which is largely because they're more concerned with being a coherent film than a larger meta narrative outside of the post credit sequences, which themselves were largely free of context.
I have to say, the first half-hour of this movie is kind of a slog. Everything is kind of way over the top (they really want Dr. Strange to come off like a total asshat and be supremely unlikable don't they?), but I appreciate that the film and series continue doing a great job of depicting Peter Parker as being a kid and not exactly having a whole lot of life experience to inform his decisions.
As someone with a long curve to learning lessons, I relate to that.
But after the first 30 minutes hot damn does the film take off Like wow. I'm glad I sequestered myself best I could for this one. It was worth it.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I imagine anything from Wandavision that the audience needs to know will be summarised in the film.
Hmm. Yeah.. I don't know. Somehow I don't think its going to lead with how Wanda's a monster that tortured a town for months rather than deal with her grief, and is suddenly obsessed with finding real versions of her fake children after one of her victims told her no one would understand her 'sacrifice.'
Also something something prophesized chaos-bringer. Well, that bit might slip in.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I imagine anything from Wandavision that the audience needs to know will be summarised in the film.
Hmm. Yeah.. I don't know. Somehow I don't think its going to lead with how Wanda's a monster that tortured a town for months rather than deal with her grief, and is suddenly obsessed with finding real versions of her fake children after one of her victims told her no one would understand her 'sacrifice.'
Also something something prophesized chaos-bringer. Well, that bit might slip in.
They're also potentially drawing from at least 3 episodes of What If that they may or may not bring people up to speed on
Watching the latest trailer, I really think Marvel Studio's biggest problem currently is deciding which project gets a movie and which gets a series. Because this one reminds me of Eternals: its too much, too big, and too complicated for a film. Every family outing and couple's date night needs to bring along their own comic book nerd to explain basically everything on screen.
Whereas F&WS and Hawkeye could have been films and cut some the fat that bogged down the shows. They had straightforward messages (or no message at all) and fairly small casts (of primary characters).
That felt like a speed run of the first 25 minutes of the film.
Not necessarily in a bad way, but now I'm expecting a series of montages with little emotional connection.
Then, suddenly, there will be actual plot.
...with a pause for a backstory for the reassembled hammer and Jane. Unless that's happening in a D+ show that I missed the announcement for.
Also:
Looks like they are leaning heavily into the Not-so-Serious nature of the GoTG and Thor: Ragnarok.
I'm not sure how I feel about that yet......
Yeah, the scenes with Quill make it look like a larger problem than just Korg. It seems set up like Ragnarok, where fun wacky adventure turns into (what's supposed to be) heart rending tragedy, but the dialogue gets stuck in the former, and the serious elements are kind of whatever.
Mr Morden wrote: Nice to see a glimpse of Natalie but yeah I thought Raganarok was good but not great, the last third is pretty weak and Hel has nothing to do.
Still nice choice of song.
Is that Hercules or someone else with the lightning - as thats his dads thing not his?
The plot may
Spoiler:
well see Zeus' power passed on to Herc.
Its kind of a shame the MCU systematically killed off all the named Asgardians except Valkyrie. Its going to be so moving to see the God-Killer go after people we've never met and have no reason to care about
Not so sold on the song myself. Thor seems a bit old to really fit it (and doesn't have kids, and has plum run out of parental figures), and honestly his 'identity crisis' is just tiring at this point. We've had 7 films with the guy, if that's still a mystery, you've done character development wrong.
Well, MoonKnight just talked about the Overvoid I.E. the celestial city where most of the gods reside. So Gorr The God Butcher might do some god butchering there.
Voss wrote: That felt like a speed run of the first 25 minutes of the film.
Less than that even. I can see the Guardians being out of the picture within 10. This is a very much abbreviated Thor gets his groove back and finds no more joy in battle and goes off to find himself. We might see most of this before the title card.
I'm actually not sure exactly where they'll put Natalie. I suspect rather late all things considered. It looks like we're going to have time for Thor to settle into a more pacifistic role as part of some kind of conclave of the gods before Gorr shows up to do his thing.
Oh man I really enjoyed the latest episode of Moon Knight!
Again I’m impressed at how well the MCU makes use of the TV, episodic format. Opinions may vary, but excluding perhaps WinterSoldier, none give the impression of a movie script stretched out.
And Moon Knight has a suitably dream like quality.
I kinda wonder what would have happened if they’d tried to talk to the guy in the tomb. Like, Hey, avatar of Konshu here, we came here to stop the guys who dug this place up. Also the hippo was great.
AduroT wrote: I kinda wonder what would have happened if they’d tried to talk to the guy in the tomb. Like, Hey, avatar of Konshu here, we came here to stop the guys who dug this place up. Also the hippo was great.
Imagine the High Heedyins of Universal looking at everything fun and great and Egyptian about the latest Moon Knight episode, then looking at the magnificence of the Brendan Fraser Mummy Movies, then the….the…….no I can’t say it let alone type it….but you’ll know what I mean….but their wannabe movie universe they allow notorious short arsed mentalist Tom Cruise strangle in its very crib.
Well played MCU, well played!
To unironically quote one of the greatest pieces of meta media ever, which is so meta it’s even meta to itself, The Producers? But without the implied homophobia, just in case? Keep it happy, keep it snappy….keep it gay. (Please note my incredibly deliberate lower case g in gay, yeah?)
I'm assuming Thor goes on a laid-back walkabout with Korg to find himself, and stumbles on a string of deaths by Gorr the God Butcher, which makes things suddenly "get real".
I am very far behind the curve, but I finally finished Wandavision.
Great premise, and solid execution, but the finale lacks.... something. I am not sure what as I found the wrap up of the Wanda and Vision compelling, the Vision's solo story compelling, but something about the SWORD, Westview and Villain resolves side of things fell flat. Perhaps too much needed to be wrapped up in a single short span of time?
Really loved how they introduced Rambeau into the show, and the post-snap trauma. Look forward to seeing a little bit more of that in other Marvel shows.
Spoiler:
I have no idea how people can not see that Hayworth was a villain straight from his introduction
That said, I do not think it was as good as Netflix Daredevil. That is still the gold standard in Supers TV. However, I am partial to street level heroes.
I would have enjoyed an episode of the opposite of the first two, but as it is we only really get a quarter of an episode with Marks life being ruined by black outs.
I’m interested to see what folk who are waiting for a Full Series Binge Opportunity make of the whole of the thing.
Whilst I for one think Disney have cracked translating the goodness of the movies to an episodic format, releasing them one by one was and indeed still is something of a risk in the modern day, where other services do a whole series dump on Day One.
I feel FalconSolider might’ve benefitted being a whole series drop, but the episodic format worked well enough for the other four. Wandavision’s homage to different TV eras certainly justified the old school release schedule.
I do really prefer weekly releases. They just create a community around the show rather than that odd sense of just consuming and then jettisoning it from your mind. It's all very FOMO. If you don't watch the whole thing in the first week then there's nothing to talk about because most of the hype is gone. It's not like binge shows are better plotted either. Strange Things, Netflix Marvel, tons of these notoriously run for 3+ episodes more than they have any reason to.
The downside of weekly releases is just the uncertainty of it being worth it in the end, which is definitely a problem with 20+ hour long episode shows. That's part of the reason I lean towards animation and the tighter 20 minute episodes that only run for 11-24 episodes. Disney+ Marvel definitely benefits from this.
That said, I agree tight plotting really matters. Wanda did it pretty well with the decade structure, but Loki feels like the one that really got it right. Moon Knight is a little meandering, but on the whole I'm enjoying it, even if I don't think its going to wind up all that high on my ranking in the end.
I think we’re also seeing the D+ shows benefit from variable episode length as well.
WandaVision was again a first there. At least, it’s the first streaming series I saw which kind of realise not having to worry or aim for syndication, each episode wasn’t tied to a specific run time.
If the next bit of the tale can be told in say, 20 minutes? They take those 20 minutes. If it needs 40 minutes, they take 40 minutes. It’s a pretty interesting experience, and so far has been used to almost entirely remove the risk of filler.
The downside? I’m a massive fan of Supernatural. Even when it’s bad, it’s still pretty fun. The premise allows for X-Files style standalone, gribbly of the week, as well as ongoing plot arc advancements. And some of those Gribbly of the Week are, in my opinion, the best the show has ever been. A palette cleanser for all involved, including the audience.
Both formats definitely have their peaks and lows. But Disney+ having flexible episode lengths is something I think is only a strength.
I prefer the control of all at once. But there are advantages to both. Want to keep people engaged between films? Episodes. Want to get peoples flagging attention? Episode dump. Some series combine the two with a dump then weekly.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: And some of those Gribbly of the Week are, in my opinion, the best the show has ever been. A palette cleanser for all involved, including the audience.
Dr. Who is a show I adore for strong, standalone episodes that completely loses me when it tries to have any sort of overarching narrative. There's definitely room for both.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: And some of those Gribbly of the Week are, in my opinion, the best the show has ever been. A palette cleanser for all involved, including the audience.
Dr. Who is a show I adore for strong, standalone episodes that completely loses me when it tries to have any sort of overarching narrative. There's definitely room for both.
I’m a sad old scrote. Whilst I still enjoy New Who, I still prefer the older format. So I guess I’m in at least partial agreement? The old format (if not it’s 30 minute episode time) had room for shorter stories? The new run has never been quite so cohesive on its longer arcs.
This is why McCoy isn’t just My Natural Doctor, as I was of the right age (no. I think you’ll find the correct term is Venerable) but my absolute favourite Doctor.
The Ace Trilogy was ahead of its time. Three multi episode stories which mostly stand on their own two feet, but when watched consecutively show how The Doctor, as an Avuncular Entity, helped Ace transition from kid to adult, and face her unpleasant past.
I think D+ can currently get away with weekly drops as its got enough new content* to cover the gaps, I think part of Netflix woes are related to only offering very average content between the big hitters, personally I've dropped Netflix and picked up D+ off Tesco vouchers
*watch Only Murders in the Building its top banana
Turnip Jedi wrote: I think D+ can currently get away with weekly drops as its got enough new content to cover the gaps, I think part of Netflix woes are related to only offering very average content between the big hitters, personally I've dropped Netflix and picked up D+ off Tesco vouchers
This I suspect will only be Geographically Accurate.
Here in the U.K., D+ comes with Star. Star is, to the best of knowledge, Hulu But Only The Good Bits. And we’re lucky enough not to have to pay extra for it.
Yes, D+ has upped its monthly cost. I pay annually, so outside of remembering exactly when I need to cough up, it’s not something I really think about. It’s just there.
Compare to Netflix, which I dropped a while back? £7-£16 a month…..and it’s Noise to Signal ratio, for me, is exceptionally poor. Now don’t get me wrong. I do enjoy a good documentary. Except…..a good documentary needs to be more than well shot, framed, directed, scripted and presented. It also needs to be (for me) Factually Accurate.
Being a Brit, I’ve been thoroughly and utterly spoiled by David Attenborough and indeed Horrible Histories. And so I have come to expect a certain level of honesty and when it comes to documentaries.
Sadly, Netflix is mostly the kinda crap Morgan Spurlock vomitted forth. Intellectually dishonest tripe, marrying a false premise to lazy research and heavily outdated references.
Netflix has other shows, sure. But nothing that can possibly justify their asking price to other services. Not even remotely.
Easy E wrote: I am very far behind the curve, but I finally finished Wandavision.
Great premise, and solid execution, but the finale lacks.... something. I am not sure what as I found the wrap up of the Wanda and Vision compelling, the Vision's solo story compelling, but something about the SWORD, Westview and Villain resolves side of things fell flat. Perhaps too much needed to be wrapped up in a single short span of time?
Really loved how they introduced Rambeau into the show, and the post-snap trauma. Look forward to seeing a little bit more of that in other Marvel shows.
Spoiler:
I have no idea how people can not see that Hayworth was a villain straight from his introduction
That said, I do not think it was as good as Netflix Daredevil. That is still the gold standard in Supers TV. However, I am partial to street level heroes.
WandaVisions ending suffers from being shot at the beginning of the pandemic. We know from stuff they have talked about that there was a lot they were planning to do that they couldn't because of a lot of unknowns and restrictions at the time. Things had to be cut. Things had to be slotted in. The whole Wanda/Agatha fight is mostly shots of just one of them on screen at a time for exactly that reason.
Unsurprised Monknight is a one shot considering it is by far my favourite of the Disney TV shows, if only because it has a neat way of cutting the tiresome fights out.
WandaVisions ending suffers from being shot at the beginning of the pandemic. We know from stuff they have talked about that there was a lot they were planning to do that they couldn't because of a lot of unknowns and restrictions at the time. Things had to be cut. Things had to be slotted in. The whole Wanda/Agatha fight is mostly shots of just one of them on screen at a time for exactly that reason.
My favorite pandemic artifact of the finale is the like 3-4 extras on the streets spaced very unnaturally far apart during the finale. Also the sheer number of shots with only one character in frame.
The end of the Moon Knight season already? Actually, I got my days mixed up and tuned in last night to catch the next episode and did the face palm (it's only Tuesday, gads...) so I switched to get caught up on Outer Range (OK, not MCU, but stellar!)
ugh. I was checking out non-spoiler reviews of Doctor Strange last night to try and figure out if my kids could handle it since I've heard it pushes the violence more than other MCU movies.
So today YouTube keeps recommending bootleg spoiler videos.
The whole article doesn't seem that spoilerish, but there are some references to the ending, so...
He was also the director of The Evil Dead trilogy and Drag Me to Hell, of course, and he doesn't hold back on cartoonish horror-comedy scares.
Besides, its appeal isn't wholly reliant on the director's infectious enthusiasm for genre thrills
Depends on the level of your kids? Can't speak to that. 'Outlandish but fun' seems to be the summary (and a bit of a departure from the Marvel formula), with some character contemplation thrown in during the quiet bits.
Like wow. I'm glad I sequestered myself best I could for this one. It was worth it.
