As of right now I'm not going to take my 13 year-old, but am planning on taking my 11 year-old. The older one really doesn't like overly intense stuff same with my wife.
Enjoyed the finale on the whole, but its pretty standard super hero stuff. Hero takes on a dark reflection of their own powers and wins while maintaining their sense of right and wrong. Ultimately I enjoyed the series, but I can't say it changed my opinion on the character all that much. I do hope they do more, as the strength of the Marc/Steven dynamic really works. The number of times I found myself forgetting Oscar Isaac is playing both certainly makes it more compelling than the times I've tried to read it off the page.
That post credit bit though? Chef's kiss. Like not surprising if you've paid attention at all, but it was just perfectly paced and super fun to watch unfold.
I wouldn't agree ont he standard superhero stuff - because thankfully (I feel this series was aimed at people like me that tire of marvel fisticuffs) they skipped half the climatic battle in the same black out style that was great in the first few episodes. I think it actually mirrors my own black out reaction now to seeing a marvel super hero punch up...
There's definitely some clever subversions, I'm just saying the overall story is pretty similar to Iron Man, Ant Man, Dr Strange, etc. The events of the story aren't terribly meaningful and the villain is a very throwaway dark reflection of the hero. It's entertaining on the strength of the interactions with the supporting cast, even when that cast is played by the same guy.
Ok, saw Doctor Strange. I'm not putting the review I just wrote together again so, I'll just link it if you're interested.
Suffice to say:
Spoiler:
1. Chavez under-cooked as a character. 2. I picked the ending fight right from the start, and picked how it would end from about half-way through. 3. Holy fething gak... incursions. I love that concept from the comics, but I never thought they'd actually do it. 4. 90's X-Men theme as Professor X enters the Illuminati chamber. Holy God that was awesome.
Great arc for Stephen. Wonderful stuff for Wanda (and she is the bad guy in this from the word go - that shocked me!). Lots of great action, some big character reveals, shocking (and bloody) deaths, and some real bonkers Doctor Strange stuff (a literal music fight, and undead-zombie-Strange-possessed-from-another-dimension-wielding-a-cloak-made-from-the-souls-of-the-damned bonkers!). Cool resolutions. A nice cliffhanger (Hi Clea!) and just a great time to be had overall. Not perfect, but so much fun!
Had an absolute blast. Looking forward to seeing it again tomorrow.
I might go see the new Strange film just out of curiosity.
I found his character very unlikable in No Way Home. Actually, his character has been rather unlikeable is basically every film since the first. I'm baffled by this. Strange isn't the nicest guy in the comics either if I'm remembering right, but you'd think they'd want to give him at least a few redeeming qualities.
I'm curious if he's going to be nice in his films and a total dick in everyone else's XD
Just got out of the theater and I really was not a fan of this one. The movie is so incredibly rushed, it's go go go the whole way through. Nothing breathes at all. I wasn't a fan of the tone either, I think I just really don't like Sam Raimi's style.
Spoilered criticism below.
Spoiler:
There are a lot of surprise appearances that are totally squandered. Oh look it's Professor X! And now he's dead. Oh look it's Reed Richards! And now he's dead. Oh look it's Black Bolt! And... Now he's dead. It's the Ralph Bohner thing all over again. Stop showing me these characters unless you're actually going to do something meaningful with them.
Wanda herself was totally nonsensical here. She clearly felt remorse at the end of her show when she released the citizens of Westview and ended her fantasy when she realized she was hurting people to keep her family together, and then in this movie she... continues to want to hurt people to keep her family together. It just doesn't make sense. If she's willing to do all this to get to her kids, why on earth did she ever leave Westview?
The initial destruction of the Darkhold was so pointless. The survivor from the battle at the beginning just stabs it, but it's totally cool because there's a tower up in the mountains with all the same spells and junk. Like... why? It's so needless.
Phase 4 definitely feels pretty aimless. I don't really feel like they're trying to build up to anything.
Just got back from seeing it again. Still awesome.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: sadly your link isn't working (Oops! We ran into some problems. The requested thread could not be found.)
Oh right, that part of the forum isn't public. Forgot about that.
Well then...
H.B.M.C. wrote:I love Wanda.
She is easily one of my fav characters from the MCU, and she has my fav scene in all of Endgame, where she damned near kills Thanos and the Mad Titan has to cheat to beat her.
I also thought that Wandavision was truly inspired television, something Marvel has not matched with their television efforts except with Loki (and perhaps the character of Moon Knight, if not his show), only marred by a horrifically bad finale that glosses over what Wanda did, with flying shooting matches, missing characters, sudden heel turns (like a dude opening fire at children for no reason) and one of the worst lines ever delivered in the MCU.
So, having said all of the above:
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! VINDICATION!
And boy did it come quick.
Anyway, spoilers...
Spoiler:
There are four things that stick out in this film to me, above everything else:
1. America Chavez was quite under-cooked. She was a MacGuffin half the time, and whilst her characterisation was fine, she felt more like a means to an end than a real character. Maybe that'll change in the future.
2. I picked the ending halfway through, and the climax almost from the start. Chekov's dead Strange body was too damned obvious, and as soon as Charles came face to face with "Suppressed Wanda" stuck inside her own mind, I knew it'd be her that stopped real Wanda's rampage.
3. There's a concept from the comics I love that I never, not even in my wildest dreams, would have ever predicted as actually coming true:
And it came true! Like holy gak, they're doing Incursions. And not even just a minor plot point, we have Reed Richards himself explain the concept, we go to a post Incursion reality, and right at the end mother fething Clea shows up to get Strange because he caused an Incursion. I think this is amazing. I couldn't be happier.
4. When Spider-Man: Homecoming came out they played a big orchestral version of the Spider-Man cartoon theme over the Marvel Studios logo. It was a wonderful touch to start that movie, and afterwards I thought that, should Marvel ever get the X-Men back, I would love the first MCU X-Men movie to get an orchestral version of the 90's X-Men theme to play over the Marvel Studios logo in that film. Well, we haven't got there yet, but holy gak did we get the 90's X-Men theme playing as yellow-hover chair Professor X entered the scene. I was elated.
So despite my first two points sounding quite down, I really really liked this film. The more I think about it, the more I realise just how much it worked. Not perfectly mind you, but I loved the way it used so many of the characters - even Christine! - so well. I was surprised that Wanda is the Big Bad from very early on in the film - I thought that'd happen later on - but no, she's super dangerous and near unstoppable and I thought it was a wonderful turn for the character.
A lot of people are going to bitch about the characterisation, but this felt completely on point for me. Sometimes good people go bad. Other Wanda fans need to accept that. And then some people will go to far, and start trying to blame "sexism" for the reason Wanda went bad (it's happened in this thread already), but thankfully most normal people can ignore those that lack any real perspective. The only thing that sucked about Wanda in this film is that an alternate Wanda defeated Wanda, and that I think that's the end of Elizabeth Olson in the MCU.
This was a fantastic arc for Stephen Strange. He gets to see himself several times, and he learns that his tendencies might be correct, but they are inherently destructive. Tony Stark's arrogance was kind of endearing, and most people could play it off as "Oh! That Tony! Such a character!". Strange's arrogance on the other hand is a multiversal threat, and one that Illuminati Strange even fully admitted. The end where Strange decides that killing Chavez and taking her power to fight Wanda isn't the only way (unlike giving Thanos the Time Stone) was really cool. As was the part where Doctor Strange possessed the dead rotting alternate body of himself and formed a magical cloak out of the souls of the damned. Like... what the feth people??? It's that and the literal music fight that reminded me that this wasn't Doctor Strange in an MCU film, but a fethin' Doctor Strange film!
Wong was cool. Nice to see him still being very competent and not reduced to comic relief.
The Illuminati. Some people have said that there appears to be no points in introducing this group of characters just to kill them off. I say that their deaths were obvious from the moment we found out about them. Why? Because you can't have this specific group of characters in the MCU, otherwise every film from now on will be "When will they show up again?""Will the Illuminati be in this movie?""Is Mephisto behind it all?" (ok, maybe not that last one...). They have to die so that they don't become a distraction within the MCU.
That doesn't mean that those characters (Reed, Professor X, mother fething BLACK BOLT ( ), etc. ) can't appear in the MCU later down the line, it just can't be these specific characters as part of this Illuminati. They had to die.
And die they did... whoa boy... Black Bolt just goes pop! I love we got to see his powers (on Titan, after they've killed Thanos), but he didn't last long (but it is a good week to be Anson Mount, that's for sure!). We got mental "waves" from Prof X. like in the cartoon, which was nice. Reed was fun, I liked him and I really hope that the reason they haven't announced Krazinski as the MCUs proper Reed Richards is because they didn't want to spoil the surprise in this film. It's always great to see Haley Atwell (man, her, Olson and McAdam's in one film... sheesh! ), and her death was almost as brutal as Reed's and Bolt's. I like this version of Captain Marvel, the whole "Been there, done that, you don't scare me!" attitude. Lame death though ("Giant statues! My one weakness!").
A few other under-cooked things. Rintrah. Just why? I'm all for taking your audience for granted in some instances; creating stories that don't always explain themselves and asking your audience to just keep up, but Rintrah needed some sort of explanation. Also, book of the Vishanti... that was a damp squib. Also no real Mordo. Nice to see him, sure, but I thought that it would have been our Mordo that fled to that reality to "warn" them of strange.
Overall, yeah, I thought this was great. I am super looking forward to seeing it again tomorrow.
Finished the Moon Knight. I had no prior knowledge about the character so it was all new and fresh to me. I really liked the first two episodes but 3rd and 4rth were rather weak, and almost made me to stop watching the rest. I am glad that I did not do that. 5th and 6th really made up for the weakest parts, and the ending post credit scene was hilarious. I do not think there is a need for a new season but I would definitely would like to see a full movie about the character, or should I say characters
LordofHats wrote: I might go see the new Strange film just out of curiosity.
I found his character very unlikable in No Way Home. Actually, his character has been rather unlikeable is basically every film since the first. I'm baffled by this. Strange isn't the nicest guy in the comics either if I'm remembering right, but you'd think they'd want to give him at least a few redeeming qualities.
I'm curious if he's going to be nice in his films and a total dick in everyone else's XD
We need the Book of Vishanti to beat Wanda! (nope, the power was inside America this whole time)
We need to destroy the Darkhold to stop Wanda! (nope, it was a copy and Wong will gladly tell you where the original is to save some random lives the movie doesn't care about, even though he knows she will use it for massive evil)
I can't control my powers! Yes you can! Even from the beginning, everything has brought you to now! (HOW!? Wanda wasn't a threat...maybe six years ago when America first jumped? She's only run into two other Doctor Stranges in 70ish jumps)
There are multiples of everyone across the multiverse except me. (and lady Loki)
The earth's mightiest heroes, The Illuminati, are mercilessly slaughtered. (Christine is relatively unphased [maybe it'll hit harder when she gets back to her universe and they try to come to grips with what happened])
The multiverse cheapens a lot of emotional investment in characters.
LordofHats wrote: I might go see the new Strange film just out of curiosity.
I found his character very unlikable in No Way Home. Actually, his character has been rather unlikeable is basically every film since the first. I'm baffled by this. Strange isn't the nicest guy in the comics either if I'm remembering right, but you'd think they'd want to give him at least a few redeeming qualities.
I'm curious if he's going to be nice in his films and a total dick in everyone else's XD
You may end up really enjoying it.
Might have to watch Wandavision first. I kind of skipped over it cause the premise didn't grab me but if she's a big part of this movie I might as well binge it for the details.
Wong was cool. Nice to see him still being very competent and not reduced to comic relief.
For all that Wong only has bit parts in other films, in many ways he's far more competent and interesting than... almost anyone else in the MCU.
He reminds me of departmental secretaries in university academic departments. Ie, the only person who can get things done, and has to do all the basic stuff for a bunch of people with no common sense or basic competency with normal things like booking flights, making copies and organizing meetings.
H.B.M.C. wrote: How? That was a case of "It's that thing you recognise... PSYKE! No it's not. It's a dick joke! LOL @ U!".
This was nothing even remotely like it.
They're both cheap, throwaway cameos that serve absolutely no purpose. 'See this other character you love from the Fox superheroes? We brought him back too! For... something...'
That's not what "literally" means. And but they 100% did serve a purpose.
They were another step on Stephen's arc of realising that:
1). There can be multiple solutions to things. 2). He doesn't always have to be the one holding the knife.
The Illuminati were just as set in their ways as Stephen was, unwilling to or incapable of listening to any possible other interpretation of events: Strange is always the most dangerous person. We can handle Wanda. We know best.
Only Xavier realised that there was an alternate path (which Mordo was angry at him for).
We're not talking about the Illuminati serving a purpose, we're talking about the Patrick Stewart cameo serving a purpose - would you like some help moving those goal posts? You could have ripped him right out of the movie and lose absolutely nothing. That's why it's gakky. That's why Ralph Bohner was gakky. It's the same thing. Don't show me these characters again if you're going to immediately write them off after they appear.
Well, to be fair here. Ralph and Xavier are not THOSE characters. In Xaviers case he is a variant from a world that has inhumans, sorcerers, the fantastic 4, Thanos etc etc...
Not a version of xavier we have EVER seen on screen.
And in Ralphs case he never was, never would be, was ever actually intended to be, her actual brother or the character that you saw in those other movies. He wasn't a guy that was summoned from another universe. He was just a man that was enchanted and mind controlled.
So... you were never shown the thing you are upset about not being given purpose. The people who showed up served exactly the purpose they were meant to in the very limited capacity that we ever saw them. You might as well be upset that we never saw Troll Loki or Marathon Runner Loki outside of a hologram.
'They were never those characters' rings very hollow because they made a conscious decision to bring back those specific actors for those specific characters. It's the cheapest, lamest kind of fan service.
Not sure what you're on about with Troll Loki or Marathon Runner Loki. I don't know those characters from another cinematic universe I've been watching for the last 20 years.
creeping-deth87 wrote: 'They were never those characters' rings very hollow because they made a conscious decision to bring back those specific actors for those specific characters. It's the cheapest, lamest kind of fan service.
Not sure what you're on about with Troll Loki or Marathon Runner Loki. I don't know those characters from another cinematic universe I've been watching for the last 20 years.
Those were two of the variant lokis from the Loki series. But I guess the point of having cameos is usually just to have them.
I'm only skimming the posts as to not accidentally spoil anything for myself, but it does seem.people are discussing MCU movies in the MCU TV thread without spoilers.
If I'm wrong I apologise, but if I'm right use tags or FOTAT (feth off to another thread.)
In this case they're explicitly off topic and break-ing forum rules. MoM is not a TV show.
I mean, I've advocated for people to take their own responsibility in the past and I stand by that, but when the latest TV show has just aired the finale this week, it's a little unsporting to potentially have people click to come in to talk about that and then step on a massive landmine of a spoiler for the latest movie when that's explicitly not what this thread is for.
Azreal13 wrote: I'm only skimming the posts as to not accidentally spoil anything for myself, but it does seem.people are discussing MCU movies in the MCU TV thread without spoilers.
If I'm wrong I apologise, but if I'm right use tags or FOTAT (feth off to another thread.)
Azreal13 wrote: In this case they're explicitly off topic and break-ing forum rules. MoM is not a TV show.
I mean, I've advocated for people to take their own responsibility in the past and I stand by that, but when the latest TV show has just aired the finale this week, it's a little unsporting to potentially have people click to come in to talk about that and then step on a massive landmine of a spoiler for the latest movie when that's explicitly not what this thread is for.
I mean I totally agree with you. I just know how the reaction to this will be.
2nd viewing done, on a fancy Dan wrap around screen.
Picked up a couple of bits I’d missed on the first watch (
Spoiler:
The cloak repair is acknowledged, Wanda’s kids also being carvings on Wundagore Mountain
)
It still holds up, even when we do know what is coming. And I’d say the whole thing moves along at a decent pace. Certainly I don’t think there’s a lot of fat to be trimmed.
I do think you need to be quite up to speed with what’s come before, at least for the main characters. I of course am, being a massive nerd. I’d be interested to see what folk who skipped other entries might make of it.
We're not talking about the Illuminati serving a purpose, we're talking about the Patrick Stewart cameo serving a purpose ... You could have ripped him right out of the movie and lose absolutely nothing. That's why it's gakky. That's why Ralph Bohner was gakky. It's the same thing. Don't show me these characters again if you're going to immediately write them off after they appear.
Ralph Bohner was a giant "FU" to the audience because they took an actor from a different film series playing a similar character, set him up as the character we already knew from the MCU (even going so far as to show a 'dead' version of him in several shots), and then made him be neither - just a dick joke.
X in this film is X, not someone else. The rug is never pulled from under the audiences feet. He is exactly who he's meant to be right from the start, there's no misrepresentation of who he is, and no bait'n'switch. It's not the same thing.
Spoiler:
Moreover, he has to die. They all do. If left alive they are a distraction to the MCU. Everything from there on in would be "When is X going to appear again?""Will John Krasinski be in this one too?""When are you going to introduce the Inhumans now that we have Black Bolt in the MCU?" and so on. X and the other cameo characters cannot remain alive by the movie's end, because they're not going to be the ones we see in the MCU moving forward. If/when we do have the proper MCU versions of these characters, they'll get proper introductions.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I don't think that means what you think it means...
Spoiler:
I know exactly what it means. I made a comparison with Professor X and Ralph Bohner, you then said it's not the same thing, I elaborated, and then you started talking about the Illuminati and how they were necessary for the movie for Dr. Strange to learn he didn't always have to be the one holding the knife. I never said a damn thing about the Illuminati, or the lesson Stephen had to learn there, so... yes, what you did was absolutely moving the goal posts. Do you know what it means?
Ralph Bohner was a giant "FU" to the audience because they took an actor from a different film series playing a similar character, set him up as the character we already knew from the MCU (even going so far as to show a 'dead' version of him in several shots), and then made him be neither - just a dick joke.
X in this film is X, not someone else. The rug is never pulled from under the audiences feet. He is exactly who he's meant to be right from the start, there's no misrepresentation of who he is, and no bait'n'switch. It's not the same thing.
Spoiler:
Moreover, he has to die. They all do. If left alive they are a distraction to the MCU. Everything from there on in would be "When is X going to appear again?""Will John Krasinski be in this one too?""When are you going to introduce the Inhumans now that we have Black Bolt in the MCU?" and so on. X and the other cameo characters cannot remain alive by the movie's end, because they're not going to be the ones we see in the MCU moving forward. If/when we do have the proper MCU versions of these characters, they'll get proper introductions.
If left alive??? We've never seen Xavier in the MCU. There's no reason for the audience to ask when we're going to see him again, so why did they have to show his death to put that question to bed? It honestly seemed like they threw him in there just to appeal to our nostalgia. It might not have bothered me so much if we didn't get such a perfect sendoff with Logan, but here we are.
I'll concede that Ralph and Xavier weren't exactly the same thing, but it felt equally pointless.
Azreal13 wrote: In this case they're explicitly off topic and break-ing forum rules. MoM is not a TV show.
I mean, I've advocated for people to take their own responsibility in the past and I stand by that, but when the latest TV show has just aired the finale this week, it's a little unsporting to potentially have people click to come in to talk about that and then step on a massive landmine of a spoiler for the latest movie when that's explicitly not what this thread is for.
I knew that would happen and stopped reading this thread after Thursday, until now, having just gotten back from the theater.
I saw it on Friday night, and it is now Monday. I left with the following three thoughts:
1. What genre is this aping? That is the key question to ask when thinking about an MCU film. It is clear that this was intended to be a the MCU "horror" entry. That colors a lot of what we see, and why it happens if you apply the tropes of horror movies to it.
2. This movie seems to tie in pretty closely with Wandavision and What IF and is perhaps the most self-referential of the Marvel movies. Will this be a trend, as we also see it in the Spider-Man movies. Once of the MCU's strengths was that each was a stand alone film in its own right. Has that formula changed and does it matter at this point?
3. Mother's Day is the worst day to release this movie as it is inherently anti-mother! The Mother is the villain, and her quest for her aborted kids turns her into a monster. The loss of mother's causes huge trauma in a different character. There are two themes of the impacts of motherhood in this film, and they are both bad!
Edit: Also, great to see a Bruce cameo, we just needed a Ted Raimi dying moment to make this complete. Also, this had the best final, end credits scene since Cap's PSA on patience.
Hope this answers on what Hulk has been doing and his recovery from Endgame. Not sure how what route they're going for making his cousin go green too though.
AduroT wrote: Hm. I like her look, but the effects for her don’t look as smooth, like she stands out from the screen more than He Hulk, more cartoonish.
It really varies. In some shots it is very much so, in others it looks like light make up. In others, she looks like Gamora's sister.
Good to have a date for it finally. And something that's hopefully truly different from the standard formula.
Grimskul wrote:
Hope this answers on what Hulk has been doing and his recovery from Endgame. Not sure how what route they're going for making his cousin go green too though.
Presumably the standard car accident/mob hit and needs a blood transfusion. Hopefully a mob hit provoked by her own actions pursuing criminals rather than the original comic origin of 'so-and-so's shy daughter'
Though hopefully the blood transfusion is legit (they're off somewhere remote and its urgent), not 'LA hospitals magically out of her super-rare blood type'
H.B.M.C. wrote: What's the bet Hulk loses his powers by the end of this?
I'm still salty about how they literally off-screen speedran the character arc they set up in Infinity War to basically handwave completely in Endgame. Now any "wisdom" or Hulk knowledge he passes onto She-Hulk is going to feel unearned.
If Banner does end up losing the Hulk, I'm assuming it has to do with him being with some sort of anti-gamma mcguffin or somehow having his Hulk juice being drained by the villain or needing to pass it onto his cousin.
That's a stretch more stretchy than Mr. Fantastic.
Tell me more?
As for She-Hulk, it is clear they are going to apply the "Ally McBeal" template to this super TV show. Man, they might be running out of genres to put super-heroes into!
AduroT wrote: Hm. I like her look, but the effects for her don’t look as smooth, like she stands out from the screen more than He Hulk, more cartoonish.
As good as the budget for D+ is, its still not the same as a major film and likely requires more minutes of effect footage overall than any film would.
You're implying that the intent of the movie was to be anti-mother. You're implying that it was Sam Raimi's intention to make a film that was specifically against motherhood. You're implying that it was Kevin Feige and Marvel Studio's intention to denigrate mothers in their newest film.
Do you understand how pants-on-head stupid that sounds?
LunarSol wrote: As good as the budget for D+ is, its still not the same as a major film and likely requires more minutes of effect footage overall than any film would.
We may not be seeing the final effects. Those can be tarted up and improved up to quite late in the day.
I am unreasonably excited for She-Hulk. I've never read the comics and never been a Hulk fan particularly, but Tatiana Maslany is fantastic - although it's going to be a little weird seeing her only play one character.
On second thought, we should take this to the MoM thread.......
In other news, I finally finished the Loki TV series. Seems like that one is pointing the way to the next phase of MCU will be all about divergent timelines and the multiverse will be a big factor. No d'uh right. I mean Spider-man and MoM points to this obvious conclusion as well. I guess my big question is does the timeline splits in Loki create the "new" Multiverse, or is the Multi-verse something different from the timeline?
pgmason wrote: I am unreasonably excited for She-Hulk. I've never read the comics and never been a Hulk fan particularly, but Tatiana Maslany is fantastic - although it's going to be a little weird seeing her only play one character.
we have a multiverse now so Orphan Green could happen....
Easy E wrote: I saw it on Friday night, and it is now Monday. I left with the following three thoughts:
1. What genre is this aping? That is the key question to ask when thinking about an MCU film. It is clear that this was intended to be a the MCU "horror" entry. That colors a lot of what we see, and why it happens if you apply the tropes of horror movies to it.
2. This movie seems to tie in pretty closely with Wandavision and What IF and is perhaps the most self-referential of the Marvel movies. Will this be a trend, as we also see it in the Spider-Man movies. Once of the MCU's strengths was that each was a stand alone film in its own right. Has that formula changed and does it matter at this point?
3. Mother's Day is the worst day to release this movie as it is inherently anti-mother! The Mother is the villain, and her quest for her aborted kids turns her into a monster. The loss of mother's causes huge trauma in a different character. There are two themes of the impacts of motherhood in this film, and they are both bad!
Edit: Also, great to see a Bruce cameo, we just needed a Ted Raimi dying moment to make this complete. Also, this had the best final, end credits scene since Cap's PSA on patience.
except Wanda ISN'T a mother.
Wanda is the mentally disturbed woman trying to kidnap someone else's baby so she can have a baby.
The exercise scene reminds me of my favouritism bit in End Game, where Depressed Thor not only finds out he’s still worthy on Asgard, but when he goes Literal God Mode, he’s suddenly not Buff Thor.
Better Groomed Thor for sure, but not Dad Bod to God Bod Because Reasons. I’m probably getting my trivia confused, but I think that was a fairly late change in the script?
Easy E wrote: I saw it on Friday night, and it is now Monday. I left with the following three thoughts:
1. What genre is this aping? That is the key question to ask when thinking about an MCU film. It is clear that this was intended to be a the MCU "horror" entry. That colors a lot of what we see, and why it happens if you apply the tropes of horror movies to it.
2. This movie seems to tie in pretty closely with Wandavision and What IF and is perhaps the most self-referential of the Marvel movies. Will this be a trend, as we also see it in the Spider-Man movies. Once of the MCU's strengths was that each was a stand alone film in its own right. Has that formula changed and does it matter at this point?
3. Mother's Day is the worst day to release this movie as it is inherently anti-mother! The Mother is the villain, and her quest for her aborted kids turns her into a monster. The loss of mother's causes huge trauma in a different character. There are two themes of the impacts of motherhood in this film, and they are both bad!
Edit: Also, great to see a Bruce cameo, we just needed a Ted Raimi dying moment to make this complete. Also, this had the best final, end credits scene since Cap's PSA on patience.
except Wanda ISN'T a mother.
Wanda is the mentally disturbed woman trying to kidnap someone else's baby so she can have a baby.
Yeah, which makes MoM a ham-fisted abortion storyline..... which, to be fair aligns well with the "horror" genre tropes as the "horrors" of motherhood/pregnancy are a common theme in horror films.
Edit: Dang, wrong thread. We should take it to the MoM thread instead......
I've got tone whiplash.
Is it a rom com? A buddy movie? a philosophical tract on the necessity of the divine? A thriller about psychological disorders leading to murder? A Shapeways ad? A baffled and confused cultural note on how ancient Greeks are somehow shocked by nudity? Why is the villain in this film? I honestly can't tell if this is going to be 90% jokes and 10% horrible trauma or the other way around (in which case we've seen all the jokes now).
I'm also confused with the logic behind Jane getting a semi-repaired Mjolnir out of nowhere and also supposedly traveling amongst the cosmos. Last I remember, Mjolnir doesn't give access to the Bifrost, so did Jane just jump on someone else's ship?
Grimskul wrote: I'm also confused with the logic behind Jane getting a semi-repaired Mjolnir out of nowhere and also supposedly traveling amongst the cosmos. Last I remember, Mjolnir doesn't give access to the Bifrost, so did Jane just jump on someone else's ship?
It looks like when Thor meets her they are on Earth (that is a regular car in the background). Thor could bring her on her cosmic journey with HIS bifrost summoning axe.
Grimskul wrote: I'm also confused with the logic behind Jane getting a semi-repaired Mjolnir out of nowhere and also supposedly traveling amongst the cosmos. Last I remember, Mjolnir doesn't give access to the Bifrost, so did Jane just jump on someone else's ship?
It looks like when Thor meets her they are on Earth (that is a regular car in the background). Thor could bring her on her cosmic journey with HIS bifrost summoning axe.
Fair point, didn't catch that they were still on Earth for the 2nd trailer. Hoping they don't handwave how Mjolnir still works just because someone worthy touched the handle, because otherwise Thor or some other Asguardian probably should have gotten access to it first.
Easy E wrote: Yeah, which makes MoM a ham-fisted abortion storyline
Did you even watch the same movie as the rest of us? Anti-mother? Abortion story?
Talk about seeing what's not there...
Well, if you really want to talk about MoM, we should go to that thread.
That said, I am starting the Falcon and Winter Soldier flick now. Still too early to say much, but it was interesting that they brought Batroc "The Leaper" back in the first episode.
I liked the first episode of Ms Marvel so far. Origin story is quite Similar, but trading the terrigen mist inhuman thing for a Magic bangle dealie. Gotta wait and see how more of the powers of that are explored, but they’ve generally got the characters’ attitudes correct so I’m down with this version I think.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, I should mention there Is a short post credit scene on the first episode.
That was really heartwarming and fun, interesting to see where they’re going with this one. Also, loving the Edgar Wright / Scott Pilgrim style direction.
Dreadwinter wrote: Starting to see rumors pop up that Kevin Feige is talking to the Duffer Brothers(Stranger Things) about a Ghost Rider project.
Yeah, I saw the same. My only exposure to Ghost Rider was the Nic Cage movies so I'm not exactly attached to the character, but I'd certainly be interested if the Duffer Brothers were involved. Stranger Things has been consistently good in my book, especially this most recent season.
Ghost Rider series set in the 90s with Dan Ketch or in the 70s with Johnny Blaze would be the way I'd want that to play out. Ideally, they could do the 90s and then bring in Blaze like they did back in the day. Great potential.
I'm not sure if it's good or bad that my favorite part of this premier is Kamala's try-hard parents who are far from the worst over-protective parents I've ever seen but are just so cringy when they try to lighten up >>; It's amazing how well they nailed that, making it both funny and incredibly relatable at the same time.
I wasn't expecting to like Ms. Marvel cause it seemed aimed at a demographic I'm not but it's not bad. It's got a lot of the same style and energy as Tom Holland's Spider-man, but Holland basically went straight to Avengers tier stuff in the MCU and we never really saw him dealing with more mundane aspects of life. This show kind of fills that niche in a way and it's quite pleasant.
The actress deserves props too. She's freaking great. She perfectly manages to nail the balance of socially awkward, good natured, and suffering daughter of over-protective parents.
Id love for them to do Daniel Ketch in the modern day with johnny Blaze in a supporting role.
Johnny is the Ghost Rider everyone knows, but all the most iconic Ghost Rider stuff comes from Ketch. The penance star, the bike with the skull face plate, the spiked shoulders/boots/wrists. It's all Ketch.
Really liked the first episode of Ms. Marvel. Kinda surprised, I didn't expect to enjoy the show but it was all around silly enough to work for me. Also, some decent supporting cast. I really liked the parents for the reasons mentioned above.
Ghost Rider would be FANTASTIC for a show with the Duffer Brothers. Hoping they do it modern day and have flashbacks to the past Ghost Riders.
LordofHats wrote: I'm not sure if it's good or bad that my favorite part of this premier is Kamala's try-hard parents who are far from the worst over-protective parents I've ever seen but are just so cringy when they try to lighten up >>; It's amazing how well they nailed that, making it both funny and incredibly relatable at the same time.
I wasn't expecting to like Ms. Marvel cause it seemed aimed at a demographic I'm not but it's not bad. It's got a lot of the same style and energy as Tom Holland's Spider-man, but Holland basically went straight to Avengers tier stuff in the MCU and we never really saw him dealing with more mundane aspects of life. This show kind of fills that niche in a way and it's quite pleasant.
The actress deserves props too. She's freaking great. She perfectly manages to nail the balance of socially awkward, good natured, and suffering daughter of over-protective parents.
I’m interested to see what younger folk make of it. I agree with everything you’ve said so far, but I’d add there’s almost shades of Melissa Joan Hart’s Sabrina, and indeed generic American yoof sitcom type stuff. Certainly more that, than the John Hughes Homage Spider-man (not meant to be a criticism of either!)
If they did Ghost Rider I’d almost be surprised if they starred anyone other than the current guy with the Charger whose name I don’t recall. I could see having Blaze around as an old mentor/passing the torch thing. They’ve been pushing into the current comics stuff so much I just don’t know that I see them beginning a new project from something that older school.
The issue there is that Blaze is passing the torch because he is currently ruling hell. He disposed mephisto. Can't have Blaze ruling hell before we get a mephisto.
LordofHats wrote: I'm not sure if it's good or bad that my favorite part of this premier is Kamala's try-hard parents who are far from the worst over-protective parents I've ever seen but are just so cringy when they try to lighten up >>; It's amazing how well they nailed that, making it both funny and incredibly relatable at the same time.
I wasn't expecting to like Ms. Marvel cause it seemed aimed at a demographic I'm not but it's not bad. It's got a lot of the same style and energy as Tom Holland's Spider-man, but Holland basically went straight to Avengers tier stuff in the MCU and we never really saw him dealing with more mundane aspects of life. This show kind of fills that niche in a way and it's quite pleasant.
The actress deserves props too. She's freaking great. She perfectly manages to nail the balance of socially awkward, good natured, and suffering daughter of over-protective parents.
I’m interested to see what younger folk make of it. I agree with everything you’ve said so far, but I’d add there’s almost shades of Melissa Joan Hart’s Sabrina, and indeed generic American yoof sitcom type stuff. Certainly more that, than the John Hughes Homage Spider-man (not meant to be a criticism of either!)
More like Clarissa knows it all, but I’m really showing my age now. [sighs] so old….
I wasn't really looking forward to Ms. Marvel much, but after having watched that first episode I gotta say I'm very impressed. As someone who grew up in the west with immigrant Muslim parents, this really hit home in a way I wasn't expecting. They really nailed the dynamic between her and her family. I also burst out laughing at certain things her parents said that I wasn't sure were meant to be funny, but they were things my folks used to say and that really tickled me. Very much looking forward to the next episode.
Great first episode. They definitely nailed the appeal of the character and really looking forward to more. Definitely looking forward to more of this one.
On a side note, the rumor mill regarding her powers is currently:
Spoiler:
Djinn comes up a couple times in the episode. A lot of people are speculating that her family is part of the Clan Destine.
Hm. I wonder if they don’t merge her background with a version Amulet’s. His whole deal is fighting demons trapped in objects and his power is manifesting energy shields in various shapes.
Bloody good fun again. Kamala and her friends are just the right level of teenage awkwardness - endearing, rather than cringe. Less socially inept, more socially inexperienced.
They certainly feel pretty authentic, though the cultural stuff I’ll leave commenting to those who aren’t early 40’s, British and whiter than a fresh sheet.
Really enjoyed the training montage bit. Definitely has roots in Sabrina and Clarissa (from when I was actually young!)
I like all the character bits. Everyone seems good like you said. Story is diverging further from the initial comic run. They might be drawing inspiration from the recent Cradle arc from Champions? Not sure who those government guys are. This shamed relative of hers I’m completely unsure of. I don’t recall anything like that from the comics and I think it’s made up whole cloth for her new powers origin.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I’m not familiar with the comic character myself. I understand she can manipulate her body, which the show has replaced with sparkly construct stuff.
I do wonder if that’s been done to reserve for Fantastic 4?
I'm reasonably sure Feige was quoted to that effect around the time the trailer dropped.
Which is a poop reason because their powers aren’t the same. It’s nitpicky but she doesn’t stretch, she changes shape, actually gaining and losing mass. It just on occasion Looks like stretching. The current in comic theory, which I believe they’ve stated in such isn’t the definitive necessarily correct answer, is that she borrows and loans mass between past and future versions of herself.
It does seem kind of weird that they're basically making her Green Lantern lite with the power change with the bracelet so far. Not to mention that Reed's whole thing was less of the use of his stretchy powers and more him being an eccentric genius anyways, so there wasn't much overlap between the two anyhow.
Episode 2 was excellent. The show continues to hit home really hard for me, which really makes me wonder how accessible it is for people who didn't grow up in an Islamic household. I can't wait to see the followup to that last scene in this episode.
I think they do a pretty good job of making the overbearing applicable. An overbearing 'Christian' household isn't really any different than this. Just slightly different rules/flavor. It's weird how well they nail it too.
Nothing about this strikes me as being "Overbearingly Islamic" though. The family is overbearing in the way that families tend to be. They're acting naturally, not "naturally Muslim". That probably has something to do with the fact that, outside of Nakia, this is a show populated with characters who are Muslim, as opposed to "Muslim Characters".
"Muslim Characters", much like the ever-present (and over-represented) "Gay Characters", are Muslim characters that are 100% Muslim all the time, being Muslim defines them, and everything they do is done through the lens of being a Muslim.
The characters on this show are people first, and their faith is part of their character rather than the entire identity/existence. Kalama's father isn't the "Muslim Father", he's just a father who loves his daughter, is kind of goofy, embarasses her and is also Muslim. Even the brother, who is clearly the most devout of all of them, has more going on for him than just being Islamic.
In the above paragraphs, replace 'Muslim' with 'Gay' and you'll see what I mean about "Gay Characters" as opposed to characters that are also gay.
AduroT wrote: Which is a poop reason because their powers aren’t the same. It’s nitpicky but she doesn’t stretch, she changes shape, actually gaining and losing mass. It just on occasion Looks like stretching. The current in comic theory, which I believe they’ve stated in such isn’t the definitive necessarily correct answer, is that she borrows and loans mass between past and future versions of herself.
I think its just that the effect would be expensive and still look silly.
AduroT wrote: Which is a poop reason because their powers aren’t the same. It’s nitpicky but she doesn’t stretch, she changes shape, actually gaining and losing mass. It just on occasion Looks like stretching. The current in comic theory, which I believe they’ve stated in such isn’t the definitive necessarily correct answer, is that she borrows and loans mass between past and future versions of herself.
I think its just that the effect would be expensive and still look silly.
It’s the reason I subscribe to. It would likely be too uncanny valley on a tv budget.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Nothing about this strikes me as being "Overbearingly Islamic" though. The family is overbearing in the way that families tend to be. They're acting naturally, not "naturally Muslim". That probably has something to do with the fact that, outside of Nakia, this is a show populated with characters who are Muslim, as opposed to "Muslim Characters".
Apart from the actual religious bit, you could replace it with Hindu (or non-religious) Indians, for example, with no issue.
Voss wrote: I think its just that the effect would be expensive and still look silly.
It’s the reason I subscribe to. It would likely be too uncanny valley on a tv budget.
I agree. I think that "stretchy limbs that don't look like gak" is a big challenge that they want to tackle for the upcoming Fantastic 4 movie, with the Fantastic 4 movie budget, and the Fantastic 4 movie schedule where pre-production and post-production has the time get it right without the time constraints that you get on your average TV series (even one with as few episodes as a D+ show).
Plus there's the problems with the reimagined origin.
It is of course totally possible in a completely made up story to have had the bangle make her able to stretch/change, but it conferring the ability to manipulate some sort of energy seems more plausible.
I guess it's not even beyond reason that part of the story might involve her absorbing the energy and being able to change without it, but that's not something I'd expect.
Possibly. The bangle is based on a piece of her comic costume, which was indeed family jewelry that her mother/grandmother brought with her during the partition.
Azreal13 wrote: Plus there's the problems with the reimagined origin.
It is of course totally possible in a completely made up story to have had the bangle make her able to stretch/change, but it conferring the ability to manipulate some sort of energy seems more plausible.
I guess it's not even beyond reason that part of the story might involve her absorbing the energy and being able to change without it, but that's not something I'd expect.
Huh. I almost always expect 'the power was in you all along' from a teen hero story. Particularly teen girl hero stories.
But admittedly its more an arc for the fourth or fifth season (or book)
(though it would almost certainly stay energy manipulation)
Certainly the story elements introduced this week wouldn't work with her original powers. I definitely think it would have been hard to explain them without the "we have X-Men at home" blanket explanation of the Inhumans. Lacking that, they need to tie into something.
Great episode though. Super fun twist at the end tying back to the lunch date lie and the supporting cast really makes the show. Kind of eye rolling at the best friend's once in a lifetime opportunity moment, but I really enjoy everyone else's arc.
There are some pretty heavy implications that the bangle could be one of the Nega Bands. Which in the comics are Kree in origin (the inhumans are also Kree in origin) and are able to create hard light (amongst a bunch of other comic book nonsense).
The nega bands also have a connection to the negative zone (a place frequently factoring into Fantastic 4 stories and the home of Annhilus) and we keep seeing glimpses of this purply shadow world with versions of people with glowy eyes when she "goes" there.
Right now my money is on her acquiring a Nega Band.
The once in a life time moment is actually another thing from the comics, except there it’s
Spoiler:
a school in Wakanda that he gets to go to. Show hasn’t super gone into how smart that guy is, just kind of hinted at it with his home made Alexa thing.
AduroT wrote: The once in a life time moment is actually another thing from the comics, except there it’s
Spoiler:
a school in Wakanda that he gets to go to. Show hasn’t super gone into how smart that guy is, just kind of hinted at it with his home made Alexa thing.
Spoiler:
Maybe that is a thread for the Wakanda Outreach program from the end of BP
The film is done and being prepared for release. There were delays, some of them to do with Covid and also because Wright was injured, but nothing to do with her beliefs.
Wow. That's some deep mining going on in the Marvel archives.
Hopefully it will go the way of Shang Chi (or GotG)
Nathan Fillion did a few in-universe posters as Simon Williams which were to have appeared in Guardians of the Galaxy vol. 2 that were unfortunately cut.
I'm only 15 minutes in to Ms. Marvel and these are my thoughts.
The family dynamics are great.
The ethnic representation is great. I stopped at the point where they were showing cricket which I thought was a nice touch.
The Kamala actress seems fine for this role. I don't see a difference between her acting quality and Kate Bishop TBH.
Her brother has an impressive beard.
Really enjoying Ms. Marvel so far. Hoping it keeps the same pace.
Also, been seeing a lot of stuff talking about Chris Evans returning to the MCU. I haven't found anything directly quoting him or anybody from Marvel yet.
Dreadwinter wrote: Really enjoying Ms. Marvel so far. Hoping it keeps the same pace.
Also, been seeing a lot of stuff talking about Chris Evans returning to the MCU. I haven't found anything directly quoting him or anybody from Marvel yet.
Paraphrasing an interview I read last week: he'd consider it, but because the 10 years he spent being Cap is his favourite part of his career, it would have to be something special to not tarnish the experience and memory of it.
I have two issues with the show. One, I don't care for her powerset. It's unique, but the visuals and actual powers are not my cup of tea. Also, I have zero idea what the story is supposed to be about other than her unlocking her powers and becoming Ms. Marvel and the first two episodes failed as a hook for me.
That doesn't make the show bad, but it will struggle with viewership for reasons other than sexism and prejudice.
Ms. Marvel continues to impress. Nicely paced, again making solid use of a serialised story to tell a tale in a way a movie can’t, and doesn’t feel like a movie adapted and shoe horned in from its original format (compare to Kenobi, which I strongly suspect is an adaptation of the originally planned movie. It’s still good, just a very different feel)
And again nice to see Characters Who Happen To Be Muslim, rather than Muslim Characters And That’s It.
I do think I’m benefiting from not being previously knowledgeable about the character too, as I’ve no expectations or personal takes to be overcome. I mean the MCU has been traditionally good at that, but good to see it all the same.
A good display of the powers! They looked nice. Also this had to be one of the fastest and harshest Sudden But Inevitable Betrayal heel turns I think I’ve seen.
Blue severed arm looks like Kree. Which helps support the nega band theory. But also the potential that she is inhuman and just not exposed to the Terrigen Mists. It's her modified DNA that allows the Band to work.
AduroT wrote: A good display of the powers! They looked nice. Also this had to be one of the fastest and harshest Sudden But Inevitable Betrayal heel turns I think I’ve seen.
They had big shades of “how did you not know these guys were Hydra” so it made sense to go early IMO
Was the pattern on the floor in the flashback significant?
Djinn:We are beings from another dimension! We are hundreds of years old! Damage Control Agent:Cool story bro. Sonic Gun goes WUB WUB WUB!
Another fun episode, and so far escaping the Disney+ Curse where we get left at an act break rather than the natural conclusion of the episode's story. Not sold on the baddies yet (I mean, it was obvious she was going to try and take the bracelet from the moment she was introduced), but I'm willing to give them time. They've got 3 more episodes with them after all, rather than introducing them in the last part of the 5th episode (*cough* King Pin *cough*).
The wedding was fun. I loved the brother grabbing all the cash on the way out. Much better showing for Bruno here, less green with envy and more being a supporting friend.
Kamala remains a treat, as always, but she should'a told her mother what was going on.
And that was 100 a Kree's arm, right?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Characters Who Happen To Be Muslim, rather than Muslim Characters And That’s It.
Right? This is what representation actually looks like. Too often all Hollywood does is represent broad archetypes.
So yeah, Ten Rings logo on the floor of the ruins. Does that mean the rings and the bangle are from the same unknown source? Or did the Ten Rings just go after it (them actually since we know there’s another out there) because why stop with one cool piece of alien tech?
Blue arm seems like an obvious Kree thing, which ties the bangles to the Kree, and gives us a Captain Marvel hook, but if the bangles and the rings are from the same source wouldn’t Danvers have had some inkling when she investigates the rings? I’m going to guess the arm isn’t actually Kree and being blue is instead a red herring.
Well. Depends what Danvers got to see of Kree tech overall.
The Ten Rings are pretty old. Or have at least been on Earth for Centuries. And the wristband likewise strikes me as really quite old (and where is the second one! Who have? What do? Where are!)
We also have a Secret Invasion story coming up. So if both are to do with the Kree (or at least stolen by Kree?) they could be lead in not-quite-macguffins-but-I-don’t-know-the-right-a-word-for-that-perhaps-Guffin King?
We may also be looking at the new Infinity Stone equivalents.
If both wristbands can transport folk to different, seemingly specified and not random dimensions? I can see lots of folk coveting them.
I feel like they criminal misadvertised Ms. Marvel. A lot of the preproduction trailers and materials made the show seem focused toward a younger demographic. Or at least, that's how I think a lot of people myself included took it. This show's honestly better than that. It's family friendly at worst and still managed to have an overall quality that's the best I think we've seen in D+ and its MCU offerings thus far.
The actors are all big boons here too. It's not just Kamala's actress at this point. Everyone is really nailing it and it's making the entire show better. The worst is maybe the lady playing the government agent lady, but her being a bit stiff sort of works so w/e
The Ten Rings are pretty old. Or have at least been on Earth for Centuries. And the wristband likewise strikes me as really quite old (and where is the second one! Who have? What do? Where are!)
We also have a Secret Invasion story coming up. So if both are to do with the Kree (or at least stolen by Kree?) they could be lead in not-quite-macguffins-but-I-don’t-know-the-right-a-word-for-that-perhaps-Guffin King?
We may also be looking at the new Infinity Stone equivalents.
If both wristbands can transport folk to different, seemingly specified and not random dimensions? I can see lots of folk coveting them.
Not sure if spoilery or not so safety first.
Spoiler:
I wondered if the big mention of the "power of a star" might be a hook into the Marvels film and be the MCU method of evolving Captain Marvel.
LordofHats wrote: I feel like they criminal misadvertised Ms. Marvel. A lot of the preproduction trailers and materials made the show seem focused toward a younger demographic. Or at least, that's how I think a lot of people myself included took it. This show's honestly better than that. It's family friendly at worst and still managed to have an overall quality that's the best I think we've seen in D+ and its MCU offerings thus far.
The actors are all big boons here too. It's not just Kamala's actress at this point. Everyone is really nailing it and it's making the entire show better. The worst is maybe the lady playing the government agent lady, but her being a bit stiff sort of works so w/e
On the trailers etc? We know the MCU, and even Star Wars are pretty adept at being intentionally misleading. Not in a malicious, rug pull way. But to the degree where we can now confidently say that if a trailer hints at something easily guessed? It won’t be that in the end.
Consider Dr Strange in the Multiverse of Madness. Which is now up on Disney Plus. Following What If?, folk were certain they’d seen Daemonic Dr Strange getting his Ming on. That lead to educated guesses as to the plot, including him being the Big Bad. Yet….we now know that’s not the case. And the trailer didn’t exactly lie, it misdirected and obfuscated. Not to “gotcha” theorists, but to keep the plot a surprise for your first viewing.
I know it won’t be to everyone’s taste or appreciation, but I’m a fan of it. Especially when it shows a genuine scene, but the context of it is different in the movie. Best example? Cap and Tony having a slanging match in Avengers. In the trailer, we see Thor sort of laughing jovially. In the movie, the scene plays out much the same ‘billionaire playboy blah blah”, but Thor’s bit is changed. He says more, and is derisive of them being petty. And we’ve seen much the same misdirection in every trailer since.
???? Wonder Man??!! WONDER MAN??!! Who knew the first edition comic I had gotten 40 some odd years ago of 'Wonder Man' would ever come up and may EVER be worth something. Actually, about 5-6 years ago I tried to sell it, since it is the first issue of a comic and I really have no idea if any other editions were made, and had absolutely no takers.
So, had it sold I may have really kicked myself and hope 'Wonder Man' comes to fruition and is a rousing success and maybe I might be able to get the $0.75 back on my investment of Wonder Man, issue #1.
Edit: After some quick research, the 29 issue series started in 1991, so I got it 30+ years ago and I guess it was a series for a while, anyway.
???? Wonder Man??!! WONDER MAN??!! Who knew the first edition comic I had gotten 40 some odd years ago of 'Wonder Man' would ever come up and may EVER be worth something. Actually, about 5-6 years ago I tried to sell it, since it is the first issue of a comic and I really have no idea if any other editions were made, and had absolutely no takers.
So, had it sold I may have really kicked myself and hope 'Wonder Man' comes to fruition and is a rousing success and maybe I might be able to get the $0.75 back on my investment of Wonder Man, issue #1.
Edit: After some quick research, the 29 issue series started in 1991, so I got it 30+ years ago and I guess it was a series for a while, anyway.
I’ve got a whole, shiny, 10 pence piece in my pocket I’ll give you for it?
Wow, they actually went for the deep cut Destine after all. Pretty nutty.
The heel turn was a little quick. Impatient immortals is kind of a weird vibe, but the episode was a total treat. The whole cast is really putting in some fantastic performances and the focus on none super characters gives the series a lot to work with.
DODC is easily the weakest part so far. Hopefully they get some time to be more than the goon squad, but on the whole this is easily shaping up to be one of the better D+ offerings in general.
LunarSol wrote: Wow, they actually went for the deep cut Destine after all. Pretty nutty.
The heel turn was a little quick. Impatient immortals is kind of a weird vibe, but the episode was a total treat. The whole cast is really putting in some fantastic performances and the focus on none super characters gives the series a lot to work with.
DODC is easily the weakest part so far. Hopefully they get some time to be more than the goon squad, but on the whole this is easily shaping up to be one of the better D+ offerings in general.
???? Wonder Man??!! WONDER MAN??!! Who knew the first edition comic I had gotten 40 some odd years ago of 'Wonder Man' would ever come up and may EVER be worth something. Actually, about 5-6 years ago I tried to sell it, since it is the first issue of a comic and I really have no idea if any other editions were made, and had absolutely no takers.
So, had it sold I may have really kicked myself and hope 'Wonder Man' comes to fruition and is a rousing success and maybe I might be able to get the $0.75 back on my investment of Wonder Man, issue #1.
Edit: After some quick research, the 29 issue series started in 1991, so I got it 30+ years ago and I guess it was a series for a while, anyway.
Wonder Man's first appearance was The Avengers #9 in October 1964. The solo series he had in the 90s never had much value and probably never will even with a D+ show.
bbb wrote: Wonder Man's first appearance was The Avengers #9 in October 1964. The solo series he had in the 90s never had much value and probably never will even with a D+ show.
Yeah. I doubt my 2099 comics will ever be worth anything either...
bbb wrote: Wonder Man's first appearance was The Avengers #9 in October 1964. The solo series he had in the 90s never had much value and probably never will even with a D+ show.
Yeah. I doubt my 2099 comics will ever be worth anything either...
???? Wonder Man??!! WONDER MAN??!! Who knew the first edition comic I had gotten 40 some odd years ago of 'Wonder Man' would ever come up and may EVER be worth something. Actually, about 5-6 years ago I tried to sell it, since it is the first issue of a comic and I really have no idea if any other editions were made, and had absolutely no takers.
So, had it sold I may have really kicked myself and hope 'Wonder Man' comes to fruition and is a rousing success and maybe I might be able to get the $0.75 back on my investment of Wonder Man, issue #1.
Edit: After some quick research, the 29 issue series started in 1991, so I got it 30+ years ago and I guess it was a series for a while, anyway.
Wonder Man's first appearance was The Avengers #9 in October 1964. The solo series he had in the 90s never had much value and probably never will even with a D+ show.
I seem to recall Stan Lee getting sued from DC for Wonder Man, due to Wonder Woman. Then a year or so later DC comes up with new Power Girl after Marvel's Power Man - go figure...
I am watching Falcon and the Winter Soldier because I am way behind.....
Anyway, the second episode has some really strong character work and chemistry between Sam and Barnes. I like how they are handling Winter Soldier in this one a lot so far.
Easy E wrote: I am watching Falcon and the Winter Soldier because I am way behind.....
Anyway, the second episode has some really strong character work and chemistry between Sam and Barnes. I like how they are handling Winter Soldier in this one a lot so far.
I was really fond of the F&WS series. For one, the antagonist had a pretty believable beef and why she was doing what she was and believable real-world issues. While not a stellar series, I did enjoy it.
Yeah, I rewatched it recently and I think all the character work was really amazing and the Flag Smashers were a fantastic protagonist. And one that can still come back under different leadership.
It's a solid series. I do think its hard to downsize to a TV budget from MCU film money and the final episode is obviously heavily impacted by COVID (though probably also the TV budget), but both title characters got great arcs and Zemo absolutely got a breakout role to keep the Captain America brand at the forefront of the MCU.
Sam's public speech at the end is fantastic. I love him calling out the senators. YOU have to do better. Shes not a terrorist. People backed her because the problems she fought for were real and you all failed all of them every step of the way.
One of the best things about FalconSoldier is it showing us un-snapping wasn’t the end of the overall problem.
I mean, things are rough on Earth. Whilst the Flag Smashers aren’t exactly in the right, it does get cross the complications of Tony’s selfish “no I don’t want to lose my daughter, screw the rest of existence” decision to not just reset.
On Earth? Massive displacement of people from homes and jobs. Who knows what the overall infrastructure is like after five years. It seems unlikely everything was maintained. Now, consider the wider Galaxy. Populaces could’ve shifted planets and/or systems. Imagine the benefit those on environmentally damaged planets being able to shift to more sustainable planets. Then….boom, those you replaced came back. That’s a much bigger version of the wider problem.
Yeah. It wasn't so much that idealogically the flag smashers were wrong. They weren't. The world as a whole progressed over the 5 years in dropping borders and people coming together. They saw everything going back to old systems and old hatreds while displacing people.
It was when they started not caring that innocents got killed that they crossed the line into villains.
Madripoor is also an interesting setting, and I could totally see it being important in future MCU stuff, including when they eventually make a 10 Rings related ..... thing......
Oh hey, Red Dagger. I vaguely remember his appearance in the comic. They’re giving him more significance here than there. Also I like how you can see her slowly building her costume piece by piece as the series goes on instead of the usual final episode I have a whole brand new suit! thing a lot of the series do.
Spoiler:
Having your secret base be That Big and above ground would really compromise its secrecy. Also the moment I saw that skylight I thought it seemed like a massive security flaw.
I'm not sold on Clan Destine at all. Why even have them get arrested if the very next scene we see them in they break out? And then the very next scene we see them in they find the secret hideout (that has a skylight, so really how hidden is it?)?
Everything else was fine. Waleed was 100% dead from the moment he was introduced, and I knew it'd be the Clan Destine leader who'd kill him. I don't think shows should be that predictable, but as the other Clan Destine characters are basically mooks with a few extra lines, they can't kill her off as there are no other characters to take her evil place.
Easy E wrote: Anyway, the second episode has some really strong character work and chemistry between Sam and Barnes. I like how they are handling Winter Soldier in this one a lot so far.
So was I until...
Spoiler:
... nuCaptain America went from "Geewhiz! This sure is a big responsibility I have now!" to "DON'T YOU KNOW WHO I AM???" in between act breaks.
F&WS was also heavily impacted by COVID, as there is a whole pandemic storyline that was cut and edited around (somewhat clumsily), reducing what the show as about. Plus the show was sitting on the fence so hard about whether the Flagsmashers were bad or good as to be nauseating.
And the less said about Sharon Carter, the better...
Zemo was cool, but then again Zemo is always cool.
I found this an odd episode. There’s nothing particularly wrong with it, but it just didn’t quite work for me.
The chase scene seemed almost out of order, as if there was a mix up in the cutting room. I think it’s in how we follow one person, then straight to another when I’d expected to stay with them. It might just be me watching it on my iPad. I’ll give it another whirl Monday once I’m home.
Mm. I’m gonna say I didn’t like this particular episode. A lot of time spent on out of character backstory dump, and not even a terribly interesting one. I would have preferred more time spent at the trains and our hero having a chance to observe the events for herself and not just the aftermath.
Spoiler:
Her being the dues ex that saved her grandma in the past is cute. Not unexpected the moment she time traveled.
I don’t like The Veil self opening. For something that they’ve spent so long on and being so hard and dangerous and it just kind of happens accidentally by itself?
And then Auntie offing herself to close it because she suddenly regrets leaving someone behind, and why did that even close it? And why did that give the other dude powers? He’s totally going to be a bad guy now. Hell blame Kamala for mom’s death and be the bad guy with the same powers that most Marvel heroes have to fight for their first villain.
Still not sure how they’re gonna resolve all this Damage Control stuff…
God... D+ shows have a continuing problem of terrible pacing, with some episodes ending on what would be act breaks on other shows.
This episode though? This one almost ended during a line of dialogue. I was shocked how quickly the credits came up.
They need to get out of this 6 episode bull gak and start making stories with the right length and pacing.
As for the episode itself, it resolved its central conflict in an incredibly pathetic/anticlimactic manner. Such a let down. And we didn't really learn anything.
From the moment Kamala went back in time we knew what role she'd play, and then we got to see something we already knew would happen. It was a waste of less than 35m (again, Disney, FFS, if you're going to rigidly stick to 6 episodes, then let 'em breathe and let them be 60m long).
I agree with H.B.M.C. The momentum has kind of drained out of the show with that episode, which is a pseudo origin story, but halfway through the season and not really showing the origin of anything particularly interesting. I hope they get back on track pretty quickly.
We pretty much already knew the whole "followed the stars" thing her grandmother spoke about was the bangle. I'm not sure we needed a whole time travel episode to show that and establish that the villains are indeed the villains, having seen that literally one episode ago. The one big revelation about the past seems fairly inconsequential, TBH.
Maybe the problem is the also the lack of scenes involving Kamala's family (her modern day one, at least). Those scenes have been really entertaining so far and have done a good job getting the tone right. Their absence was felt here.
Definitely probably the overall weakest episode of Ms Marvel. I actually really enjoyed the historical perspective of events throughout the episode, it just didn't fit in with Kamala's story in a meaningful way. The end of this episode could have been tacked on to the end of the last and probably improved both.
Catching up on Ms Marvel (first two so far) Its definitely interesting, but its oddly stressful to watch. The over-protective-but-crappy parents and awkward teens are too real to be comfortable.
Was planning on binging more, but simply can't bring myself to do it without a break.
Amused by the amount of references going on in the background (and credits) though. Ep 2 end credits had a 'Trust a Bro' moving van (from Hawkeye) wander by and a lot of continuity stuff in AvengerCon. Though I do wonder when anyone on Earth saw Mantis to cosplay as her.
The main idea is that Scott Lang has seriously capitalised on his association with The Avengers, and has done a lot of interviews/has a podcast, so whilst there were no cameras at Avengers HQ when Thanos attacked, the details of that attack are widely known.
Plus there was a 5 year period between the snap and when they undid it all - Captain Marvel would have been around for some of that time.
Pretty satisfying overall. Wee bit Marvel By Numbers, in that we get Hero vs Baddie but with the same powers!
I know some folk don’t like that trope, but for me it’s all about showing that it’s not their powers that make them Heroic, but their behaviour and actions with those powers.
Some really cool bits, and perhaps the odd bit of cringe here and there (DODC being Plot Incompetent when required), but not something to bother me personally.
I really enjoyed it, but don’t feel a particular rush to rewatch the whole thing. Maybe this weekend though, as I don’t think I’ve much else on.
And yes there is a post credits scene, but only the one before D+ goes into the translation credits.
Pretty satisfying overall. Wee bit Marvel By Numbers, in that we get Hero vs Baddie but with the same powers!
I know some folk don’t like that trope, but for me it’s all about showing that it’s not their powers that make them Heroic, but their behaviour and actions with those powers.
Some really cool bits, and perhaps the odd bit of cringe here and there (DODC being Plot Incompetent when required), but not something to bother me personally.
I really enjoyed it, but don’t feel a particular rush to rewatch the whole thing. Maybe this weekend though, as I don’t think I’ve much else on.
And yes there is a post credits scene, but only the one before D+ goes into the translation credits.
Spoiler:
Surprised you didn't mention the little riff of a certain 90s theme tune when Bruno dropped the m-bomb at the end
Ok, so, we reach the end of another too-short hamstrung-runtime finishes-episodes-after-the-second-act-break poorly-paced and rushed Disney+ series...
Spoiler:
... and this one stuck the landing!
This episode seemed the closest to the first episode of the series, given that we had a good emphasis on the family dynamics again (especially the father, who's great), a return to the sketchbook graphics, and more interactions between Kamala and her friends. I thought that it was weird when they ditched Zoe Zimmer altogether, in much the same way as they completely ditched the Bruno and Nakai storylines when the show took that ill-advised side-trip to Pakistan.
But no, there she was, right at the end, involved with the story. And Bruno and Nakai got payoff for their stories as well. And Kamran can shoot Tiberium crystals, apparently, so... ok!
I love their silly home alone stuff in the school. I really liked how Kamala's brother just appeared halfway through the briefing. Heaps of fun. Bruno should have a broken face though, as that one DC agent full on clocked him in the forehead or cheek with the butt of his sonic gun.
I absolutely love how Kamala decided on her hero name. That scene with the Dad on the roof was fantastic.
And... I went back 'cause it caught me off guard... but that was the 90's X-Men theme again. I really hope that Marvel Studios have decided that that theme will be the MCU 'mutant' theme going forward, because feth yes!
Bit of an odd post-credits, but I like that it was a seemingly weird switcheroo between her and Carol. Carol's complete confusion was a nice touch. And on the strength of Iman Vellani alone I am now looking forward to The Marvels. What a revelation she is.
[EDIT]: feth... that movie is over a year away...
Tons of fun, and would be the best D+ MCU show so far if not for that dreadful penultimate episode. Sits just behind Loki for me.
I think my biggest complaint is the costume. Don’t get me wrong, it looks amazing. It’s just thruout the series she kept picking up pieces of red and blue clothing and I thought it was going to kind of organically come together at the end, but nope it’s just mom shows up with a fully tailored suit for the climax as these series tend to do.
Otherwise a pretty by the numbers but still quite enjoyable finale. Other than that fifth episode the whole thing was pretty good.
I enjoyed Ms Marvel. I like her character, I like the supporting cast, I like her rise to herodom. All good.
That being said, I think this is the weakest of the Disney + Marvel series so far. I know a lot of people assign that to Falcon Winter Soldier. (And I think that show really deserves to be binged to truly appreciate it). But I think FWS just does more with it's characters. I Like Ms Marvel but I cared more about what was happening to Bucky, Sam, the Dora, John Walker, and Karli.
Pumped to see her in The Marvel's when she meets her hero.
Half expecting Spidey to swing by during the final scenes. I know Jersey isn’t his turf life, but even so!
Not disappointed he didn’t though.
I am looking forward to some kind of Young Avengers type shenanigans in due course. We’ve got Hawkeye, Spidey, Ms Marvel and America Chavez all on the College Or Younger age range. And I can see DODC wanting to set up a “school for responsible heroing” type thing. Especially with the Sokovia Accords, from which I assume DODC derives it’s authority.
Also big props to Ms Marvel for again having Characters Who Are Muslim, without really reducing any of them to Muslim Characters.
Even The Mosque scenes (all of them) show a community thing. The same sort of pulling together you might see in other media where it’s a Church, without focussing it on Islam or particularly lazy tropes - but still allows the specific faith (and some of the issues it’s followers can face) to be part of it.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Also big props to Ms Marvel for again having Characters Who Are Muslim, without really reducing any of them to Muslim Characters.
Even The Mosque scenes (all of them) show a community thing. The same sort of pulling together you might see in other media where it’s a Church, without focussing it on Islam or particularly lazy tropes - but still allows the specific faith (and some of the issues it’s followers can face) to be part of it.
They played the mosque like tv high school: Something stolen from a locker, a guide to the the cliques, a campaign for political popularity. There was a small bit on gender segregation - but it was played as 'talking at the back of the class'. It was all happily normal.
I’m bummed we won’t get to see her interact with Coulson. There was an ongoing bit in the comics with her writing fanfiction and Coulson was secretly the admin/mod for the website.
LunarSol wrote: Thoughts tomorrow but regarding the actual post credit scene.
Spoiler:
I assume her band is quantumly entangled with a counterpart that Carol found?
Spoiler:
I was disappointed Carol wasn’t holding the other bangle or some other piece of tech. It seems weird since her powers were infinity stone based while the new stuff is seemingly different.
Also I totally thought she’d shapeshifted into Carol at first. That’s how the comic begins so it would have been a cute ending for the series.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Inhumans fans are losing it over the finale. Between Madness’s Black Bolt and now Marvel’s mutation, they’re quite displeased.
So I think I figured out why this one is on the bottom of my Disney+ list.
Spoiler:
Everything is resolved WAY too quickly. There is no actual threat or challenge that is the through line of the show. She meets the Clandestines and they are resolved in 2 episodes. She meets the Red Dagger and they are allies within 15 minutes. She is fighting with her mom and then by the end of next episode 3 generations of women are hugging each other with all their past miscommunications wrapped up. Yes, her story was more about her personal journey and discovering who she is and what she can do. Thats great. But usually that kind of journey of self discovery is mirrored and tied to another plot that follows along with them. And this show throws problem after problem at our hero that gets resolved almost instantly. There are like... 5 "threats" that get resolved in 6 episodes. It doesn't give me time to care or settle into the stakes. Even her high school bully is only a bully for a single scene.
Lance845 wrote: So I think I figured out why this one is on the bottom of my Disney+ list.
Spoiler:
Everything is resolved WAY too quickly. There is no actual threat or challenge that is the through line of the show. She meets the Clandestines and they are resolved in 2 episodes. She meets the Red Dagger and they are allies within 15 minutes. She is fighting with her mom and then by the end of next episode 3 generations of women are hugging each other with all their past miscommunications wrapped up. Yes, her story was more about her personal journey and discovering who she is and what she can do. Thats great. But usually that kind of journey of self discovery is mirrored and tied to another plot that follows along with them. And this show throws problem after problem at our hero that gets resolved almost instantly. There are like... 5 "threats" that get resolved in 6 episodes. It doesn't give me time to care or settle into the stakes. Even her high school bully is only a bully for a single scene.
I guess she's closer to her hero, Captain Marvel, than expected then. Since that's arguably the same problem that happens in CM's movie too, where she doesn't have any actual threat or challenge by any of the Kree and it's all about her "self-discovery" as a superhero, but really its just a set-up movie for why Nick Fury called for her on his pager at the end of Infinity War (that frankly could have been skipped altogether given how small her contribution to the story in Endgame was besides blowing up a ship).
DODC is easily the weakest part so far. Hopefully they get some time to be more than the goon squad, but on the whole this is easily shaping up to be one of the better D+ offerings in general.
So in the end, the DODC acting as little more than a goon squad lets the best parts of the show shine. The home alone ending, the community banding together, all of that actually works really well to the point where if you just tag this on to the end of the second episode, remarkably little needs to change to make a pretty great little movie.
What doesn't end up working for me is sadly the Clan Destine. They feel like a pretty solid plan for a season 2 arc that someone gets jammed in the middle of season 1 and just never quite gels with what makes the first and last episodes work so well. The show becomes about explaining her powers (and then dropping that explanation) rather than exploring them.
The final episode really, really lets you feel what the show has been missing since the early episodes. The cast really shines and all of them get at least one stand out moment where they get in that way that the MCU has always thrived in. The payoff for Kamala herself is fantastic. The suit looks great, her platform jumping captures the feel of the character's movement from the comics remarkably well, and the whole "embiggen" moment is just the right kind of cheese for the character. A fun and satisfying payoff for the series that unfortunately feels a bit bogged down trying to make 6 episodes out of what honestly feels like what should have been a great little movie instead.
Lance845 wrote: So I think I figured out why this one is on the bottom of my Disney+ list.
Spoiler:
Everything is resolved WAY too quickly. There is no actual threat or challenge that is the through line of the show. She meets the Clandestines and they are resolved in 2 episodes. She meets the Red Dagger and they are allies within 15 minutes. She is fighting with her mom and then by the end of next episode 3 generations of women are hugging each other with all their past miscommunications wrapped up. Yes, her story was more about her personal journey and discovering who she is and what she can do. Thats great. But usually that kind of journey of self discovery is mirrored and tied to another plot that follows along with them. And this show throws problem after problem at our hero that gets resolved almost instantly. There are like... 5 "threats" that get resolved in 6 episodes. It doesn't give me time to care or settle into the stakes. Even her high school bully is only a bully for a single scene.
I guess she's closer to her hero, Captain Marvel, than expected then. Since that's arguably the same problem that happens in CM's movie too, where she doesn't have any actual threat or challenge by any of the Kree and it's all about her "self-discovery" as a superhero, but really its just a set-up movie for why Nick Fury called for her on his pager at the end of Infinity War (that frankly could have been skipped altogether given how small her contribution to the story in Endgame was besides blowing up a ship).
The movie Captain Marvel very much has a through line through the entire 2 hour movie. The through line is about control. While she is being held back both physically by her implant and mentally by her brain washing removing her ability to recognize her previous relationships and her past. The Skrulls likewise are fighting to take back control of their lives and looking for a place to escape their being hunted to extinction and looking for a new home.
The Kree are consistently the enemies of both and Yon Rogg is the consistent personal threat to Captain Marvel by being the tool the Kree used to try to keep her in line and held back and under their control. The movie is about her regaining her freedom and her self.
Carol Danvers doesn't solve a new problem for it to never be seen again every 15-30 minutes.
I am not super interested in listening to disingenuous interpretations of the Captain Marvel movie. That horse has been well and truly beaten. If you didn't like it thats fine. But making up nonsense about it just shows how little you paid any attention.
Azreal13 wrote: It's the Multiverse now, a million possibilities and zero stakes.
That's not even slightly true...
Well, in the multiverse shows/movies, its pretty true. And is going to to keep being a problem, since they didn't bother to introduce some kind of 'out of your own universe entropy-decay' or whatever. They can just swap people at will. Its literally the plot of Loki, and will be the whole thing with Kang. And probably GotG3 with the spare Gamora. What if...? juggled a Black Widow (though even that doesn't actually matter since the What if...? reality inherently doesn't matter).
In the shows/movies that just ignore the Multiverse, its largely fine. But then you've got stuff like Spiderman Homecoming, where if the illusion were true, they could have played it straight and gotten a perfectly serviceable and not-all-that different movie out of it.
As far as the Ms Marvel finale goes...
Spoiler:
The complete reversal of her parents just baffles me. It was odd enough that she had more freedom in Pakistan after having already extremely hacked off her mother, and yeah, they eventually reconciled, but... multiple people died, some extremely gruesomely (there were skeletons in that clothier shop by the time her mother showed up). And they dealt with absolutely none of that.
And then instead went for a bit of extreme flip flopping between farce and brutality instead.
Damage Control desperately needed development. They're functionally just crazy people willing to shoot children in the back, in public, on video. Yes, I get the obvious parallels. But, seriously. Bad lady is just bad, and that's both boring and stupid.
The series felt like it wrapped up in episode 5, and someone decided there really needed to be 6 because it was a 'better number.'
Bought the only thing that was interesting was the return of the subtext from episode 1 (Kamala rather panic-crushes at Zoe's introduction), and in this Zoe makes a crack about 'her choice about coming out.' Yes, about being powered, but also... well. Most of the stuff that matters in this series (ie, the family stuff) works just as well as a gay awakening (or in this case bisexual) and coming out as it does for super powers).
Voss wrote: Well, in the multiverse shows/movies, its pretty true. And is going to to keep being a problem, since they didn't bother to introduce some kind of 'out of your own universe entropy-decay' or whatever. They can just swap people at will. Its literally the plot of Loki, and will be the whole thing with Kang. And probably GotG3 with the spare Gamora. What if...? juggled a Black Widow (though even that doesn't actually matter since the What if...? reality inherently doesn't matter).
But they haven't done that. The MCU has a problem with not killing people - that much is true - but it's not anything to do with multiverse shenanigans, and I disagree with the notion that multiverse = no stakes.
It's not as if they've gone over and grabbed a multiversal Iron Man, Black Widow and Cap to fill in the for the dead ones in the main universe. The only really returned characters we have are due to time travel, but that doesn't reduce the stakes. If Loki dies in Season 2 of Loki, they're not just going to grab a multiverse Loki and carry on as though nothing has changed, then maybe, but I just don't buy the core argument.
Marvel's fear of killing off characters is a far bigger problem, only exacerbated in Thor: Dumb & Dumber when we see characters die and then find out that they're also kinda not dead anyway.
Voss wrote: In the shows/movies that just ignore the Multiverse, its largely fine. But then you've got stuff like Spiderman Homecoming, where if the illusion were true, they could have played it straight and gotten a perfectly serviceable and not-all-that different movie out of it.
What wasn't serviceable about Homecoming?
Voss wrote: Damage Control desperately needed development. They're functionally just crazy people willing to shoot children in the back, in public, on video. Yes, I get the obvious parallels. But, seriously. Bad lady is just bad, and that's both boring and stupid.
It was better than the end of Wandavision, where the dude just up and opens fire on a pair of pre-teens without warning because the show suddenly needed a villain for all the secondary characters to fight.
At least with Bad Lady she was set up as Bad Lady right from the start.
Well, in the multiverse shows/movies, its pretty true. And is going to to keep being a problem, since they didn't bother to introduce some kind of 'out of your own universe entropy-decay' or whatever. They can just swap people at will. Its literally the plot of Loki, and will be the whole thing with Kang. And probably GotG3 with the spare Gamora
you mean the Gamora who didn't remember Star Lord and the rest of the Guardians of the galaxy? yeah thats hardly "No concequences"
Well, in the multiverse shows/movies, its pretty true. And is going to to keep being a problem, since they didn't bother to introduce some kind of 'out of your own universe entropy-decay' or whatever. They can just swap people at will. Its literally the plot of Loki, and will be the whole thing with Kang. And probably GotG3 with the spare Gamora
you mean the Gamora who didn't remember Star Lord and the rest of the Guardians of the galaxy? yeah thats hardly "No concequences"
Depends how they do GotG3. If they just slot her in as antagonistic Gamora from GotG1, then... yeah. No real consequences.
HBMC wrote:It's not as if they've gone over and grabbed a multiversal Iron Man, Black Widow and Cap to fill in the for the dead ones in the main universe. The only really returned characters we have are due to time travel, but that doesn't reduce the stakes. If Loki dies in Season 2 of Loki, they're not just going to grab a multiverse Loki and carry on as though nothing has changed, then maybe, but I just don't buy the core argument.
Uh...Loki from Loki the series IS a multiverse Loki replacement and he slotted into the originals 'redemption arc' without ever experiencing it. Loki is the _perfect example_ of the core argument, especially since you don't even seem to remember he is a replacement!
What wasn't serviceable about Homecoming?
Not what I meant.... oh. Also I got the name wrong. I meant the Europe one (Far From Home?) My bad.
What I was saying is that the movie would have been fine with prime universe Mysterio as is, multiverse Mysterio as a hero or multiverse Mysterio as a villian. They message would have been a little different in some of those cases, but the movie as a whole would have worked with any of those scenarios, and real universe or multiverse characters didn't actually matter.
It was better than the end of Wandavision, where the dude just up and opens fire on a pair of pre-teens without warning because the show suddenly needed a villain for all the secondary characters to fight.
At least with Bad Lady she was set up as Bad Lady right from the start
'It was slightly less worse than utterly terrible' is not much of a statement.
There were some many ways that could have been done well- such as actual covert surveillance and appealing to the mosque for help based on the fact that he was involved in the attack on the wedding (being deceptively bad but potentially effective and intelligent). If she has to be Bad and Stupid, she at least needs some motivations for it . Not just ignoring her boss to go with (in episode 6) the worst possible approach to the situation against orders.
The Loki in Loki didn't just slot into the others redemption arc. He spent the vast majority of the show trying to steal power for himself until he recognized the stakes and cared about the one person a loki pre the end of Ragnarok cares about. Himself.
That Loki, without having to stave off a multversal war, who ran into thor would manipulate the gak out of him and try to take power. He learned nothing the other loki did.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: He’s also not an alternative reality Loki. He’s MCU Loki, going off on a wee adventure between scenes in Avengers Assemble.
As long as he teleports back to the same time and place? Everything continues as we see.
No, he's alternate reality Loki. Very explicitly. They go into that reality to steal (simultaneously) multiple infinity stones. That reality's Ancient One gives a lecture on the consequences after their own experts explain time-travel-to-alternate-universe. They _lose_, entirely, that reality's Space Stone*- that Loki wanders off with it to Mongolia and it gets disintegrated in the TSAB. There is no way he can slot back into place because:
a) he's not from the prime universe
b) he knows too much and has a sense of self-preservation (and is selfish- do you really think he'd sit through his mother dying again, knowing about it? Or march to his own failures and death at Thanos' hands?) He'd react differently to every event.
c) he's caught up in the Time War now. He isn't getting back to his starting point, even if he were dumb enough to go.
*funny story there, they've doomed an entire universe either that one or the one they go to steal the earlier Space Stone isn't getting one back. Oops.
*funny story there, they've doomed an entire universe either that one or the one they go to steal the earlier Space Stone isn't getting one back. Oops.
The universe that they get the Mind and Time Stone from gets ported to the end of time when the TSA purges it because Loki didn't stay on course. Steve presumably returns the Space Stone last and stays with Peggy from that point on.
It was a fun ride, and nice to see Egyptian stuff.
I enjoyed the "black-outs"/DID and the idea of Avatars. It was also fun to see a Kaiju battle.
That said, I still liked the subtext and larger messaging of Falcon and Winter Soldier better. Granted, I prefer Cap style stories over a lot of other Superhero fare.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: He’s also not an alternative reality Loki. He’s MCU Loki, going off on a wee adventure between scenes in Avengers Assemble.
As long as he teleports back to the same time and place? Everything continues as we see.
No, he's alternate reality Loki. Very explicitly. They go into that reality to steal (simultaneously) multiple infinity stones. That reality's Ancient One gives a lecture on the consequences after their own experts explain time-travel-to-alternate-universe. They _lose_, entirely, that reality's Space Stone*- that Loki wanders off with it to Mongolia and it gets disintegrated in the TSAB. There is no way he can slot back into place because:
a) he's not from the prime universe
b) he knows too much and has a sense of self-preservation (and is selfish- do you really think he'd sit through his mother dying again, knowing about it? Or march to his own failures and death at Thanos' hands?) He'd react differently to every event.
c) he's caught up in the Time War now. He isn't getting back to his starting point, even if he were dumb enough to go.
*funny story there, they've doomed an entire universe either that one or the one they go to steal the earlier Space Stone isn't getting one back. Oops.
Easy. The Space Stone? One from the Drawer of Spares. Take that back, in a Tesseract, and no-one need be any the wiser.
Whichever world, timeline or reality is missing that one? Was……already missing it, because it’s already at the TSA, beyond their reach. And with that there? Nobody in that reality can do a Thanos, as you need every stone to do so. It being removed doesn’t necessarily damage a timeline either, on the proviso it was always taken at that point. The Avengers had explicitly gone back to get them. If nobody is going back in time in that reality? No timeline damage. Easy peasy.
His behaviour also changes between Thor and The Dark World. We see him in his cell, depressed. Was he depressed because he’s incarcerated? Sure. At first. But….with more seasons of Loki to come, and him knowing his destiny? It’s possible the knowing of his destiny is why he’s depressed. He’s seeing sights foreseen coming true. He knows what happens next. And it’s entirely possible that by that point, he’s learned more, including how Thanos is stopped, his role in that, and potentially even “messing around with time just makes things worse”.
Still not a plot hole. Still not an Alternative Reality Loki
Azreal13 wrote: It's the Multiverse now, a million possibilities and zero stakes.
That's not even slightly true...
So you think
Spoiler:
Xavier, Black Bolt, Reed Richards and Captain Britain
Are gone, never to return?
Introducing the Multiverse means there's a built in reset button for everything, and consequently nothing need ever stick.
It was a problem with the Arrowverse, it's potentially a problem with the MCU.
It's obviously an important aspect of the comics Universe, and I'm not knocking them for introducing and exploring it. Obviously it's also a fabulous real world tool to recast or reintroduce characters with a justified in world explanation, but for the ongoing good of the MCU it needs to be resolved. Either all other alternatives collapse down into one, or, perhaps to leave the door open a bit, travel across dimensions becomes impossible.
Azreal13 wrote: Either all other alternatives collapse down into one, or, perhaps to leave the door open a bit, travel across dimensions becomes impossible.
Azreal13 wrote: It's the Multiverse now, a million possibilities and zero stakes.
That's not even slightly true...
So you think
Spoiler:
Xavier, Black Bolt, Reed Richards and Captain Britain
Are gone, never to return?
Introducing the Multiverse means there's a built in reset button for everything, and consequently nothing need ever stick.
It was a problem with the Arrowverse, it's potentially a problem with the MCU.
It's obviously an important aspect of the comics Universe, and I'm not knocking them for introducing and exploring it. Obviously it's also a fabulous real world tool to recast or reintroduce characters with a justified in world explanation, but for the ongoing good of the MCU it needs to be resolved. Either all other alternatives collapse down into one, or, perhaps to leave the door open a bit, travel across dimensions becomes impossible.
you seem to think characters in a multiverse are just infintately slottable in for others.
and yes aside from Garmorra (whose very pointedly not the gamora from our timeline and has "forgotten" the guardians of the galaxy) and Loki (who I'll note isn't interacting with the rest of the MCU) the MCU hasn't actually been revising everyone left right and center have they?
you seem to think characters in a multiverse are just infintately slottable in for others.
Yes. I mean, if they were to bring back RDJ as another Universe's Tony Stark, how long do you think an audience would really care that he wasn't the original?
Recasting is a slightly different argument, of course, but that has everything to do with an audience's relationship with the previous actor and little to do with the fact the same character wears a different face now.
the MCU hasn't actually been revising everyone left right and center have they?
We have a dash of No Way Home and Multiverse Of Madness so far that have explicitly explored the idea. (Is there any in the new Thor? Not seen it.)
It's not like they've really got going.
We've already seen 3 separate Stranges in one movie, so they're clearly not averse to using the concept. Even if they were, the fact that it's now been established that it's possible will undermine the fates of any character from here on out until this arc is resolved.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: He’s also not an alternative reality Loki. He’s MCU Loki, going off on a wee adventure between scenes in Avengers Assemble.
As long as he teleports back to the same time and place? Everything continues as we see.
No, he's alternate reality Loki. Very explicitly. They go into that reality to steal (simultaneously) multiple infinity stones. That reality's Ancient One gives a lecture on the consequences after their own experts explain time-travel-to-alternate-universe. They _lose_, entirely, that reality's Space Stone*- that Loki wanders off with it to Mongolia and it gets disintegrated in the TSAB. There is no way he can slot back into place because:
a) he's not from the prime universe
b) he knows too much and has a sense of self-preservation (and is selfish- do you really think he'd sit through his mother dying again, knowing about it? Or march to his own failures and death at Thanos' hands?) He'd react differently to every event.
c) he's caught up in the Time War now. He isn't getting back to his starting point, even if he were dumb enough to go.
*funny story there, they've doomed an entire universe either that one or the one they go to steal the earlier Space Stone isn't getting one back. Oops.
Easy. The Space Stone? One from the Drawer of Spares. Take that back, in a Tesseract, and no-one need be any the wiser.
Whichever world, timeline or reality is missing that one? Was……already missing it, because it’s already at the TSA, beyond their reach. And with that there? Nobody in that reality can do a Thanos, as you need every stone to do so. It being removed doesn’t necessarily damage a timeline either, on the proviso it was always taken at that point. The Avengers had explicitly gone back to get them. If nobody is going back in time in that reality? No timeline damage. Easy peasy.
His behaviour also changes between Thor and The Dark World. We see him in his cell, depressed. Was he depressed because he’s incarcerated? Sure. At first. But….with more seasons of Loki to come, and him knowing his destiny? It’s possible the knowing of his destiny is why he’s depressed. He’s seeing sights foreseen coming true. He knows what happens next. And it’s entirely possible that by that point, he’s learned more, including how Thanos is stopped, his role in that, and potentially even “messing around with time just makes things worse”.
Still not a plot hole. Still not an Alternative Reality Loki
He's from a different reality. That's presented as fact. It has nothing to do with plot holes. They go to a universe NOT THEIR OWN, and accidentally set a Loki loose. And that's the starring Loki now. The original one is still dead.
As to the other stuff..
Azreal13 wrote: It's not like they've really got going.
yeah, this. We're still wrapping up IW post snap stuff. The alternate reality crap is just kicking off.
The really confusing part is time travel has some sort of barrier of short and long. Did Strange create hundreds of multiverse dimensions when he bargained with Dormammu? Is the TVA creating more work for themselves with their rewind devices?
How far back need one go to create a new universe? Was looking at the possible futures, and deciding on the actions to render the one with the desired outcome any different than Wanda going after her kids? Did Strange trade the MCU by letting Thanos beat the avengers in 999 others?
And if Time travel is inherently sending you into other universes.... does America Chavez have the ability to time travel as well?
Time travel as I understand it doesn’t go to a different universe, it creates a new one. When you travel to the past, it’s your own universe’s past, but once you arrive, you’re creating a new one where you now exist there when you didn’t before. The Avengers show up, grab a stone, leave. TVA comes in after them, sets off one of their little devices, and resets/erases that new branch. You’ll note in Avengers they only freely traveled backwards in time. When they traveled forward and returned to their present it was to their set machine anchor point. Even Thanos got to their future thru that machine. Strange didn’t travel to the future with his stone, he simply observed possible futures. Infinity Stones very nature sort of warps physics so they probably get to break the rules anyways. The thing that really breaks from this is Old Cap, whose existence makes no sense given the movie’s own rules of time travel. So yeah, there’s no returning Loki to where he left, they explicitly reset that branch in the first episode. They have no place to return him to.
Except….does any of the TVA stuff work as we’re told?
We know they don’t disintegrate people, but punt them elsewhere. If the effect of that is a lie? What do the erasure devices actually do actually in reality actually?
It moved the alternate branch to the void at the end of the world where the giant smoke monster eats it. They explicitly talk about it happening post revelation.
Not those ones, no. Those ones are dead, and served their purpose (another step in teaching Strange that there is more than one way to handle a situation and that it doesn't always have to be him that does it).
Azreal13 wrote: Introducing the Multiverse means there's a built in reset button for everything, and consequently nothing need ever stick.
Not those ones, no. Those ones are dead, and served their purpose (another step in teaching Strange that there is more than one way to handle a situation and that it doesn't always have to be him that does it).
Mind you, he already learned that lesson in Endgame, when he turned everything over to Stark and resigned himself to getting snapped out of existence. 'Course, between this and his girlfriend 'issues,' MoM was about spoonfeeding him basic life lessons that he should have picked up by his mid-20s. But hey, he's a 'genius.'
But really, if anything, the 'Illuminati' taught him they were useless obstacles (obstacles for him, useless against Wanda) and he DID need to do things himself.
Voss wrote: Mind you, he already learned that lesson in Endgame, when he turned everything over to Stark and resigned himself to getting snapped out of existence.
No, he was still on his "one way" track then. He found the one way they'd win, and did everything to ensure that it happened. When ever one came back he made sure to remind Stark that there was only one way of doing things, keeping him in the dark at first ("If I tell you, then it won't happen") and then confirming it when the time did come.
In MoM he learnt that he doesn't have to do it that way, as he let America solve the conflict at the end, rather than himself. The Illuminati were hypocrites, as they saw only one way to deal with the issue and all died as a result. That was their purpose in the film.
you seem to think characters in a multiverse are just infintately slottable in for others.
Yes. I mean, if they were to bring back RDJ as another Universe's Tony Stark, how long do you think an audience would really care that he wasn't the original?
Recasting is a slightly different argument, of course, but that has everything to do with an audience's relationship with the previous actor and little to do with the fact the same character wears a different face now.
the MCU hasn't actually been revising everyone left right and center have they?
We have a dash of No Way Home and Multiverse Of Madness so far that have explicitly explored the idea. (Is there any in the new Thor? Not seen it.)
It's not like they've really got going.
We've already seen 3 separate Stranges in one movie, so they're clearly not averse to using the concept. Even if they were, the fact that it's now been established that it's possible will undermine the fates of any character from here on out until this arc is resolved.
... yes I suppose it's possiable they could use the multi verse to cheaply remove the concequences of character death etc..
but we've not seen them doing it!
Look maybe you should judge based on what we see rather then worst case behavior you think we could hypotheticly see?
Is it a road back for departed actors and/or characters? Sure it is. And it always has been in the comics.
We’ve had a handful of teases about the potential impact though.
Gamora in End Game for instance being a kind of character and relationships reset. She is Gamora - but hasn’t had the same experiences as her departed past/future version.
The various Dr Strange. None came and left a permanent existence. Permanent impact, yes. Because welcome to causality.
No Way Home? Well….kind of. Ish. If anything that serves to establish that whilst other realties in the multi-verse have a Peter Parker who is also Spider-Man, they’re absolutely not the same Peter Parker or Spider-Man. Very different lives and life experiences.
I really don’t understand why folk feel this is a bad thing? I don’t want to think ill of others, but I’m getting the impression we have people contributing to the conversation who haven’t seen the film, and are simply raising talking points from YouTube etc, and we have folk just determined to paint the films and even the whole MCU in as bad a light as possible, for reasons best known to themself.
I think a lot of the push back for the multi-verse is mostly due to the the pigs ear the CW shows made of the concept, and with the MCU group think of what funny is means we wont get the sillyness of Legends. Loki tried and it doesnt really come off
Of course give me a 1602 show and I'll shut my yap
I think it is very likely that when we reach the "End Game" of this multiversal story arc, when the "stones" are well and truly gone and no longer a factor, we are going to get some multiversal characters settling into and living in the main MCU reality.
But I think thats another 10 years away. I do think it's an opportunity to recast Steve Rogers and Tony Stark and bring them back onto the screen, but as clearly different people with different experiences facing new challenges.
I think a lot of the push back for the multi-verse is mostly due to the the pigs ear the CW shows made of the concept, and with the MCU group think of what funny is means we wont get the sillyness of Legends. Loki tried and it doesnt really come off
Of course give me a 1602 show and I'll shut my yap
I don't see much pushback beyond a few people here about the multi-verse. Mostly I've seen excitement for the varients we could see etc
I really don’t understand why folk feel this is a bad thing? I don’t want to think ill of others, but I’m getting the impression we have people contributing to the conversation who haven’t seen the film, and are simply raising talking points from YouTube etc, and we have folk just determined to paint the films and even the whole MCU in as bad a light as possible, for reasons best known to themself.
Have some tinfoil, make some hats.
People can't possibly hold opinions different than your own, the have to have sinister motives.
After thinking about it for a bit I have come to the conclusion, and I'm sure you will all agree, that the best character so far in Phase 4 has been Alligator Loki.
I'm glad I can see the subtitle for DD, they cheered over Feige in the video I saw and I couldn't read it on the screen.
That title carries a lot of baggage with it, I hope they can do it justice, but with the recent confirmation of R rated MCU stuff, there's a solid chance.
Phase 6 is only year or so long, and is going to have F4 and two Avengers movies, and somehow fit other things in there as well? How many movies are going to be in a single year??? Somewhere along the line they need to do another Doctor Strange, another Spidey and find something for the X-Men/Mutants in general.
Either way, The Kang Dynasty is a nice start. On one hand, Kang should be an Avenger-level threat. On the other hand, look what they did with One-And-Done Ultron.
Cautiously optimistic.
Lance845 wrote: Dare Devil: Born Again is going to be 18 episodes.
Does that mean anything though? Whilst they have differing episode counts, all the D+ MCU shows have been roughly the same length, and equal parts too short and not long enough.
Is the new DD just going to be the same length, but cut into (somehow) even shorter episodes?
D+ shows - not just Marvel; Star Wars has the same problem - need to get their act together. They need to be longer, have fuller stories that don't feel like acts of a movie script sliced into episodes, and in some cases actually have stories.
Length of phases: There are more hours of content in phase 4 then most of the first 3 phases combined. With that trend continuing we will likely see phases be "longer" but take less time to release.
DD Epsiode length: Who knows? But even if they were on the shorter side (20 min each) that still means DD is 6 hours long.
I suspect the 'what is that' refers to the yellow pulse above Winter 2024. The big otherwise empty spot between FF and Kang.
It could just be visual garbage (theres a similar spot behind GotG3 on the other screen), but it certainly looks like there should be something there- otherwise there's so little crap to phase 6 that FF should be part of 5 and they should wait to announce the two Avengers things until they have more stuff to announce.
It could just be visual garbage (theres a similar spot behind GotG3 on the other screen), but it certainly looks like there should be something there- otherwise there's so little crap to phase 6 that FF should be part of 5 and they should wait to announce the two Avengers things until they have more stuff to announce.
I suspect that Disney knows how to assign their projects to wich phases & how to advertise them better than you do....
It could just be visual garbage (theres a similar spot behind GotG3 on the other screen), but it certainly looks like there should be something there- otherwise there's so little crap to phase 6 that FF should be part of 5 and they should wait to announce the two Avengers things until they have more stuff to announce.
I suspect that Disney knows how to assign their projects to wich phases & how to advertise them better than you do....
Sure? Someone wanted to know what the splodge was. And going by all the hooting and hollering in the video, their audience is totally excited.
But as a visual display, the 'phase 6' backdrop is mostly blank, with another 2024 movie and two unrelated 2025 ones (barring no slowdowns from another strike, general world conditions, or the VFX artists they're completely dependent on just giving a 'feth you' notice). So I'm not shocked that someone wanted to know what was going on.
Since the FF are being brought in and Namor is in Wakanda Forever I'm going to guess the movie in that spot it is a Rom Com featuring Sue Storm and Namor.
Blade was in the post credits of Eternals already.
We had a mummy in moon knight. Werewolf by night is going to be a holloween special. And Blade will introduce vampires. All the classic monsters in the mcu hahaha
Phase 6 has a lot of blank space because most of it hasn't been solidified yet. I think its safe to assume that there will continue to be D+ shows in 2025.
They just really needed to announce Secret Wars. We all knew that's where they've been going, but without the signpost it was hard to tell how much of it actually mattered or if it was something we needed to care about for 2030.
Personally, I hope Kang is one and done like Ultron. Kang is just.... not that great. I have little doubt this movie will be the best story he's been in, but I'm happy for it to be an apocalyptic storyline that lets Doom take center stage for the finale.
Lance845 wrote: Blade was in the post credits of Eternals already.
We had a mummy in moon knight. Werewolf by night is going to be a holloween special. And Blade will introduce vampires. All the classic monsters in the mcu hahaha
I had no idea... Hmm, tough act to follow, the first Blade film whilst silly in places had some great set pieces and overall feel.
Lance845 wrote: Blade was in the post credits of Eternals already.
We had a mummy in moon knight. Werewolf by night is going to be a holloween special. And Blade will introduce vampires. All the classic monsters in the mcu hahaha
I had no idea... Hmm, tough act to follow, the first Blade film whilst silly in places had some great set pieces and overall feel.
Well, Mahershala Ali could act Snipes off the screen while in a coma, so that bodes extremely well.
(And yes, I did need to Google how to spell his name!)
and I'll wager he deals with the IRS in a timely fashion too
Be interesting to see how Daredevil goes, I suspect it wont be full Netflix levels of fisticuffs but then again Moon Knight was messy in parts, and if course Matt best bring Foggy and Karen with him
Lance845 wrote: Blade was in the post credits of Eternals already.
We had a mummy in moon knight. Werewolf by night is going to be a holloween special. And Blade will introduce vampires. All the classic monsters in the mcu hahaha
I had no idea... Hmm, tough act to follow, the first Blade film whilst silly in places had some great set pieces and overall feel.
Well, Mahershala Ali could act Snipes off the screen while in a coma, so that bodes extremely well.
(And yes, I did need to Google how to spell his name!)
I feel Snipes was an asset for that reason. Couldn't rely on the acting so set piece's go
Turnip Jedi wrote: and I'll wager he deals with the IRS in a timely fashion too
Be interesting to see how Daredevil goes, I suspect it wont be full Netflix levels of fisticuffs but then again Moon Knight was messy in parts, and if course Matt best bring Foggy and Karen with him
I would assume so, on the other hand given whats done with Karen in the comic book "born again" that could be.... ugh
Now I'm suddenly in love with the idea that Phases 7, 8 and 9 will be "The Phoenix Saga", and that Marvel Studios will finally do justice to a plot that Fox failed at twice.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Now I'm suddenly in love with the idea that Phases 7, 8 and 9 will be "The Phoenix Saga", and that Marvel Studios will finally do justice to a plot that Fox failed at twice.
And hopefully with better casting too. I was always shocked that they chose Jennifer Lawrence to be Mystique and Sophie Turner of all people to be Jean Grey. Should have had Jennifer Lawrence be a bespoke mutant character given that she was just playing herself again and Sophie Turner really showed her reliance on being part of an ensemble in GoT from the lack of acting chops (script definitely didn't help) in her X-men movies.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Now I'm suddenly in love with the idea that Phases 7, 8 and 9 will be "The Phoenix Saga", and that Marvel Studios will finally do justice to a plot that Fox failed at twice.
it'd make some sense, to really make dark pheonix hit home you need to 1: develop jean as a character people care about. 2: Develop Jeans RELATIONS to the point where people care about it (dark Pheonix at it's heart was a lvoe tragedy) 3: develop the Pheonix. we need to see Jean hit her height, to the point where she's insanely power and saves the universe.
Dark Pheonix needs to be done in a way so that when it happens... it hurts! Fox rushed into it knowing the Pheonix story was important.. but not getting WHY
The problem with the dark phoenix story line now is actually making it hurt.
That this one is a clone and the real one will be back later, and Scott will get over it and pop off with yet another clone rather undermines all the stakes.
The writers themselves even parodied how silly it had gotten with a Boys Night Out storyline with a joke alien invasion that was summarily trashed when the X-boys thwarted the deployment of the Jean Bomb[tm] (a redhead that would destroy all relationships and ties). Havok blew up the mothership with a beer in his hand and the Xmen went home. The end.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Now I'm suddenly in love with the idea that Phases 7, 8 and 9 will be "The Phoenix Saga", and that Marvel Studios will finally do justice to a plot that Fox failed at twice.
It'd need to be a slow build, though probably not quite as long and drawn out as the Infinity Stones saga. The problems with the previous attempts were many, but one of the big ones was only giving themselves 3 or 4 films each time, especially when at least one of those generally had nothing to do with the Phoenix storyline other than the existence of Jean Grey as a character. The original X-Men trilogy at least gave us characters we cared about, played by competent actors. The more recent one fell over at the start by miscasting Jean Grey, then utterly failing to write anything compelling after that.
"Hero we care about turns into villain" is a great concept for a multi-movie story arc. The problem is keeping the momentum going for long enough when so much is centred around a single character. At least with the Infinity War stuff you can have completely unrelated characters all involved by way of the Stones. Not sure how you do that with Jean Grey.
AduroT wrote: How different would a Dark Phoenix storyline be from what Wanda went thru?
Pretty wildly different.
Female suicide is triumphant heroism over the dangers of unleashed female sexuality rather than female grief excuses torture, for starters.
And yes, that is ugly. But Jean's starting point is very repressed. As she grows darker, she become more sexual (and sexualized). And 'her' death is treated as a noble sacrifice, mostly over her own desires..(and a 'redemption' for all the aliens she kills off screen)
True but still can't shake the feeling that Wanda's arc was mutant free the Disney version of the Phoenix arc, with a skew towards MCU pg-13ness (well besides enslaving a town to play happy ever after)
Considering how terribly they did Hero turns villain with Wanda in MoM, I would have very little faith in yet another attempt at the Dark Phoenix story. Surely there are other compelling stories in the X Men mythos they can explore instead.
creeping-deth87 wrote: Considering how terribly they did Hero turns villain with Wanda in MoM, I would have very little faith in yet another attempt at the Dark Phoenix story. Surely there are other compelling stories in the X Men mythos they can explore instead.
Agreed, it would be much more interesting seeing how they would handle the creation of Genosha once Magneto is reestablished as a character.
Her entire life has been one of trauma from a young age. Basically, from the moment her parents are killed? Everyone, in some form or another, sought to use her. First as an experiment, then as a weapon.
It’s pretty upsetting when you think about it. From the age of 8-10 or so, no-one other than her brother (who was also kind of damaged in his own way) treated her as a human
The most interesting aspect of that on the big screen is in an early Civil War scene, when Tony and Steve are arguing. Tony says she’s a weapon. Steve says she’s a kid.
Steve and Tony are both right. Yet neither make that connection. She is a danger. And she is a kid. The two combined are reason for compassion - but also make her a unique threat. So much power, but for reasons beyond her control, not the maturity to restrain them/
And it only gets worse. She meets Vision. The only person to not be scared of her or try to exploit her. We see that in Infinity War, when ultimately they just kind of want to be left alone.
She goes on to lose Vision…..twice. The first time was by her own hand, which would be awful enough - but at least Vision had committed to it, to prevent a greater tragedy. She does it. She’s visibly and incredibly upset….only to see the one they were trying to stop rewind time and kill Vision again.
Then she goes insane, possibly disassociative disorder, and enslaves a town in her insurmountable grief.
She eventually stands down. Only to end up corrupted by the book she hoped would help her.
Wanda is tragedy. Her life is unending tragedy. She’s never truly had agency. She’s had a brief moment of true peace with Vision, only to see it all ripped away in an exceptionally brutal way.
Of course she was. She's one of the good guys in every movie she's been in (not at the start of Age of Ultron, but certainly by the end), and she's definitely the antagonist of MoM. I actually agree with the rest of your post, just not this opening sentence. Discussing all the things that make Wanda interesting doesn't change the fact that they very much wrote her into heroine turned villain in her last appearance.
), etc. ) can't appear in the MCU later down the line, it just can't be these specific characters as part of this Illuminati. They had to die.
), and her death was almost as brutal as Reed's and Bolt's. I like this version of Captain Marvel, the whole "Been there, done that, you don't scare me!" attitude. Lame death though ("Giant statues! My one weakness!").
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