So i guess its kinda safe to say the vision we have known before this show is dead and gone. and this vision is just a......vision of what wanda sees.
Also, im going to be petty AF.
Wanda in age of ultron is in her like, late 20s.27 i think.
No way, when she was that young(Like IDK, 8?)
did malcolm in the middle come out. Which her dad clearly had
Also, I knew exactly what episode that episode she was watching was from because I just finished a rewatch of the show lol
I was really enjoying the episode until the end. It really felt like Agatha was building toward a big revelation with all the questions of how did you do this, and then we're shown Wanda having her mental breakdown and using her powers to create the version of Westview we're seeing, but... we already knew Wanda was using her powers to change everything, and it was pretty obvious that it was out of grief, so that whole thing was just like... yeah, and?
I did really enjoy seeing other parts of her life. The bomb flashback was excellent, and the conversation with Vision while she was under house arrest was even better. They did an amazing job showing that first flicker of genuine affection between them. So well done. Learning she had powers before the stone was quite a shock, but now I'm worried they're gonna pull a 'see? We had mutants in the MCU all along. We swear.'
creeping-deth87 wrote: I was really enjoying the episode until the end. It really felt like Agatha was building toward a big revelation with all the questions of how did you do this, and then we're shown Wanda having her mental breakdown and using her powers to create the version of Westview we're seeing, but... we already knew Wanda was using her powers to change everything, and it was pretty obvious that it was out of grief, so that whole thing was just like... yeah, and?
I did really enjoy seeing other parts of her life. The bomb flashback was excellent, and the conversation with Vision while she was under house arrest was even better. They did an amazing job showing that first flicker of genuine affection between them. So well done. Learning she had powers before the stone was quite a shock, but now I'm worried they're gonna pull a 'see? We had mutants in the MCU along. We swear.'
Spoiler:
The big reveal isn't so much that it was Wanda (we knew it was Wanda like you said). It's that she isn't powered by the mind stone at all. And that the source of her power is something Dr.Strange might be keeping an eye out for. The Chaos Magic bit is dangerous. "You have no idea how dangerous you are".
Wanda in the comics is not a mutant anymore. She won't be a mutant. Thats not a problem. Her powers in this are obviously not mutant related. She's more a Dr. Strange thing then anything. Which makes this WAY more interesting that she is cast in Dr. Strange 2. Maybe he is teaching her in that movie?
Also the post credits all white Vision. Perfect. I suspect the Vision we have seen is dead and gone. But it's possible him entering the hex might bring back at least a little of who he once was. I am pumped to see how this plays out.
My take on Wanda and the sceptre is a Phoenix Job. Either the entity finding a host, or the entity being awakened within her, having been there the whole time.
Also note that the energy which created Westview Vision was the same colour as the Mind Stone.
I fully expect something like a fusion of the two Vision’s, bringing him back fully.
Yeah, I think the yellow light when she was (re)creating Vision is telling. I kind of think that it was her pulling a tiny bit of the Mindstone back together. So while his memory is screwed up, that's definitely the REAL Vision. Especially given that he has more self-awareness than the "characters" in the town, can actively work against Wanda, and can actually wake them out of their Wanda-control.
Now he just needs a suitable vessel to merge with to exist outside of the Hex.......
I feel like the end result of this is going to be a Vision who has his personality back but none of the memories. Wanda will essentially have to start over, but CAN start over. This Vision will essentially be a different person.
I doubt it will happen, cos Disney, but i would love it to end darker - Wanda tries to unite the two visions to make him whole again, and for some reason it fails (Sword head guy interfering, cos he wants ‘dead’ visions tech for himself maybe?) and in her grief/rage she doubles down on the bad guy/scarlet witch side of things, which sets her up to be that big bad in Dr Strange 2, or phase 4 as a whole
Why did no one reply to my theory? Oh, right, because the forums ate it and I got distracted and forgot to repost it... Anyways,
I think the Visions merging is Too plausible. Like it’s just an easy obvious solution. Granted people had pegged Agnus way back by episode 2, though we let ourselves be fooled as well when she was fooling Vision, but sure enough it was indeed her. Still, I’m betting Vision ends up dead still at the end of this, but Wanda will get some emotional closure with him and a chance to say good bye this time and start to deal with her grief and move on. She’ll have to be the one that chooses to end the Hex and let him go.
AduroT wrote: Why did no one reply to my theory? Oh, right, because the forums ate it and I got distracted and forgot to repost it... Anyways,
I think the Visions merging is Too plausible. Like it’s just an easy obvious solution. Granted people had pegged Agnus way back by episode 2, though we let ourselves be fooled as well when she was fooling Vision, but sure enough it was indeed her. Still, I’m betting Vision ends up dead still at the end of this, but Wanda will get some emotional closure with him and a chance to say good bye this time and start to deal with her grief and move on. She’ll have to be the one that chooses to end the Hex and let him go.
I think she will get her chance to say goodbye and get her closure for sure. I just don't think the vision will be fully gone from the MCU. I think the white vision now with some personality will be around to become his own person. And that means the kids won't have their dad either. Which..
Spoiler:
Actually perfectly mirrors that exact set of circumstances from the comics.
I could be wrong. But there is too much good story telling opportunity in all that tragedy.
The Mind Stone provides enough of a link between Wanda's powers and Vision's memories that they can bring him back. Will they? Should they? Not entirely certain.
There’s not just her initial exposure to it, either, but (arguably, due to time stone shenanigans), her destroying it before Thanos claimed it.
I do wonder just how permanently gone the stones can actually be. It’s my understanding they’re a fundamental part of the universe - so may only be dispersed, rather than outright destroyed?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: There’s not just her initial exposure to it, either, but (arguably, due to time stone shenanigans), her destroying it before Thanos claimed it.
I do wonder just how permanently gone the stones can actually be. It’s my understanding they’re a fundamental part of the universe - so may only be dispersed, rather than outright destroyed?
It depends on which story you want to believe.
The MCU origin story for them is that they're 'leftovers' from the previous universe (not unlike Galactus...); 'singularities' [black holes?] forged into the stones by the act of the current universe coming into existence. At least... according to the Collector.
The AU Ancient One seemed to believe that the Stones absence would cause reality to deviate from its path and become 'doomed,' but.. its unclear if she just meant that the future wouldn't happen the way it 'should' in her reality (she's at least seen enough of the future to know Strange exists, if not why he made his decision to give up the time stone). Or if she literally meant that somehow the absence of the stone would cause reality to fail in some fashion.
Of course, given the posited origin story, I'd say both of them are unreliable narrators for artifacts that existed before the universe even began and before time was time.
The old joke about 'how do you know about the parts you weren't there for?' covers a _lot_of ground with these things. Like 99.999999% of their existence.
Ancient One could simply be referring to the parts the Stones played in Thanos’ plan, the success of which lead to his ultimate failure and defeat.
Remove Loki’s sceptre after Avengers Assemble, and there’s no Vision or Wanda for one.
Certainly any type of time travel and grandfather paradoxes might occur.
In terms of their overall solution, one does wonder if the Ancient One knew all along? It’s been a while since I watched Dr Strange (that’s tomorrow’s viewing sorted!), so I can’t remember if she couldn’t see past her death, or just stuff involving her past her death? Certainly she knew Steven to be her successor - and it was his scrying of futures which lead to Thanos’ defeat, and his actions which ultimately started everyone off down that one road.
I assumed what she was talking about was that if Strange doesn't have the Time Stone, he can't bargain with Dormammu to save reality. If the Time Stone is removed before that point, the Dark Dimension would take over. Beyond that point I don't think its necessarily relevant.
LunarSol wrote: I assumed what she was talking about was that if Strange doesn't have the Time Stone, he can't bargain with Dormammu to save reality. If the Time Stone is removed before that point, the Dark Dimension would take over. Beyond that point I don't think its necessarily relevant.
True. And its an alternate reality so really it doesn't matter at all. [If one exists, they all do, so just bop off into the next one]
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: There’s not just her initial exposure to it, either, but (arguably, due to time stone shenanigans), her destroying it before Thanos claimed it.
I do wonder just how permanently gone the stones can actually be. It’s my understanding they’re a fundamental part of the universe - so may only be dispersed, rather than outright destroyed?
It depends on which story you want to believe.
The MCU origin story for them is that they're 'leftovers' from the previous universe (not unlike Galactus...); 'singularities' [black holes?] forged into the stones by the act of the current universe coming into existence. At least... according to the Collector.
The AU Ancient One seemed to believe that the Stones absence would cause reality to deviate from its path and become 'doomed,' but.. its unclear if she just meant that the future wouldn't happen the way it 'should' in her reality (she's at least seen enough of the future to know Strange exists, if not why he made his decision to give up the time stone). Or if she literally meant that somehow the absence of the stone would cause reality to fail in some fashion.
Of course, given the posited origin story, I'd say both of them are unreliable narrators for artifacts that existed before the universe even began and before time was time.
The old joke about 'how do you know about the parts you weren't there for?' covers a _lot_of ground with these things. Like 99.999999% of their existence.
The ancient one is talking about the role the time stone plays in stopping Dormamu. She never sees the threat that Thanos plays because all her looking forward to the future "ends here" looking at the snow fall over the city before she died. Her singular focus was on stopping Dormamu.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The origins of the infinity stones in the comics (which could absolutely still be true in the MCU) is that they are constituent parts of a singular entity that is basically a counter part to or avatar of Eternity. There is actually a 7th white stone that has no real power but is the consciousness of that being. The big bang is him breaking himself down to forge reality.
So Everyone else is telling their version of that story without truly fully understanding it. And yeah, they cannot really be destroyed in the same way that mater and energy cannot be destroyed. Only changed states. The stones don't currently exist as stones but without the time stones existence there would be no time. So... you know... it's there in some capacity.
So there's an animated MODOK show coming soon from Stoopid Buddy Stoodios - not sure if it's MCU or not (and can't find anything about it outside of FB)
beast_gts wrote: So there's an animated MODOK show coming soon from Stoopid Buddy Stoodios - not sure if it's MCU or not (and can't find anything about it outside of FB)
I've seen it too... I think the thing that's really surprised me about it was effort some of the misdirections went to:
Spoiler:
Like me finding a video in the depths of youtube that absolutely looked, to me, like a phone camera recording of some kind of post production footage of a fight between Magneto and vision. Not a trailer or anything, just like, 20 seconds of footage.
Or images of toy boxart of Wanda versus Mephisto, with Wandavision branding.
Even despite all this, or perhaps even because of it, I really do think Wandavision, now that it's done, might really have been the best Marvel Studios product ever made and comfortably sits next to Infinity War and Winter Soldier.
Definitely had some dust in my eye at the end there...
Also
Spoiler:
Did we ever find out who was in the witness protection that got Woo involved in the first place? I can’t tell if that was an irrelevant detail or an, as yet, unexploited Chekov’s gun.
I have a wild theory that Ralph Bohner is a pseudonym and Agatha didn’t give him powers, but just mind controlled him.
That end credits scene definitely fits with Wanda being the antagonist in Dr Strange whether as full villain or just as a “whoops, I broke something important because I didn’t realise what I was doing”
Well that was really great. When I get a day off I am going to probably rewatch the whole thing in a binge.
Spoiler:
While the Darkhold aint nothing to feth with, I don't think this is going to be Wanda the villian in Dr Strange. I think it's more likely that Wanda comes to Dr Strange for help. He will need to reign her in. She will cause some damage or harm. But it's going to be more Strange helping to guide Wanda back to her children. Also where the feth did White Vision go off to? Reveals for later! I fething love the MCU!
The more I think about, Wanda has a real Granny Weatherwax vibe, of “I’m only good because I chose to be”, because the only other choice is decidedly not good.
ZergSmasher wrote:Watched the finale tonight. Really good. I'm honestly still processing the implications of it all.
One thing that has me a little perplexed:
Spoiler:
Is the Darkhold the same book that was in Agents of SHIELD Season 4? Because it sure looks like it. If it is, Wanda needs to put it down right now!
H.B.M.C. wrote:The Darkhold was used in Agents of SHIELD but Agents of SHIELD isn't part of the MCU.
Correct. Also I feel like the Darkhold was misused in AoS. It's WAY more dangerous then they implied in that show. The Darkhold in the comics is basically what if Mephisto and Dormamu wrote a spell book based on all their cruelest ideas. gak gets DARK in the Darkhold. This isn't the Ancient One tapping into the Dark dimension to survive for a long time. This isn't even sell your soul to get cursed to be a Ghost Rider. This is manifest Mephisto physically on Earth kind of gak. It's not giving the Earth to Dormamu in his Dark Dimension. It's giving Dormamu a foot hold here so he can actually leave the Dark Dimension. Real bad gak comes from the Darkhold.
Though each time the book had a different design, apparently. So they could very well be different books, depending on whether you subscribe to them being the same canon or multiverse or whatever.
My favorite part is that the Vision fight is resolved not thru punches and laser blasts, but thru a philosophical debate. Just in the middle of a throw down and one dude just goes Stop and the other guy immediately does. Even when he’s “evil” he’s still polite.
A little disappointed he then just leaves without a word or helping anyone. Also in the post credit when she’s sitting on the porch, she is distinctly off center and I expected him to come out and sit next to her, but still no.
You know, in the vocabulary of lazy boring media slags, I think WandaVision has can genuinely and accurately be described as a rollercoaster.
Most importantly, whilst the main story has a satisfying beginning, middle and end, not everything is explained in excruciating, tedious detail.
There are bits and pieces left dangling. Hints and that of what might be to come. All there for other series and writers to pick up and run with if it suits their show.
I must not have understood the conclusion of the series. It gave me whiplash.
Spoiler:
I thought the show had previously deftly built up the horror of what Wanda had done -- and for incredibly selfish reasons -- but apparently at the end Monica explains that the townspeople "will never know what (Wanda) sacrificed for them". What? WHAT?!?
You mean her fake holodeck family? Whom she chilled with while townspeople were turned into animatronic meat puppets, tears sliding down their faces as they silently screamed? All of that was VERY dark...but in the end let's forget about it...there's a boss battle that needs to happen and ultimately the townspeople ARE actually cardboard cutouts that don't matter compared to 'our heroes'.
Fly away Wanda! Meanwhile, we'll arrest the SWORD guy who undoubtedly was an a-hole and broke some laws, but mostly correctly thought that Wanda was an incredibly dangerous monster and that what was going on in the hex was horrific. And what's the post-credits sequence supposed to suggest? 'Oh no, she's reading the Darkhold...she's turning bad now'? She ALREADY made her heel turn -- I thought that was what the show was about, until she gets an emotional hero's ending without the overwhelming guilt that should have been there. "My bad everybody, but I really did miss them SO much."
Sorry folks...really liked this most of the way, but the ending felt like it had been changed in committee.
Wanda got to get away scot free, and that execrable cop-out "They'll never know!" line from Monica does not absolve her.
And Haywood (unironically) did nothing wrong, yet he's the one that walks away worse off (not as worse off as the townsfolk, who get nothing but the memories of their torture).
There's only really a relatively short time that Wanda was consciously aware of what was happening. - Around the end of Episode 6 to Episode 7 time. Even then, it was a dawning conscious awareness.
There's also the idea that the 'fake holodeck family' was real to her. SO incredibly real to her.
Monica, who has been lost in her own grief herself, acknowledges what Wanda did, that grief and emotions are complicated. This is all despite the fact that the 'cardboard cutouts' as you call them, are staring in complete revulsion and hatred, the camera lingering and acknowledging that awfulness.
Then, ultimately, Wanda flies away, because ultimately, who can stop her? That, and there ARE innocents there who need protection and help. Innocents who Todd put at risk himself, for his own experiment.
Plus. of course, there's the whole gigantic witch battle thing too, there's probably some on-the-ground unclarity about who was fully responsible for it all.
I think the finale scene is less about being evil, and more about she's fully coming into her powers as the Scarlet Witch to show that Wanda's learning about fully fledged magic.
I mean haywood did drive her into it. Would wanda have lost her mind if haywood hadnt delighted in showing her visions chop shop or if she'd been allowed to bury him? Dude was willing to wipe out an entire town to get a working version of vision. So lets not pretend he didnt do anything wrong.
I know its the MCU and i know it happened relatively quickly in real time but im shocked literally no one was keeping tabs on her given her past. Also how do you punish superman? Thats the kind of question you're asking.when they let her walk away. Shes a grief strickened force of nature. Also there is no guarentee that she didnt "fix" their brains when she shut the place down.
Thing is, the show DID mention the morality of it all. Even in this episode. It’s horrific. She did to an entire town what WW did to one dude and had fans bent out of shape. Except the particulars in Wanda’s case are more inhumane - they were conscious and tortured by nightmares.
But never mind the morality just 10 minutes later! Because after all, aren’t Agnes and SWORD dude the real baddies? No! They really aren’t!
Only thing I can figure is that dealing with Wanda honestly — which probably involves her breaking down and fully realizing in horror what a monster she’s become — would have put her in the “wrong” place for the DS movie. If that’s it, it underlines the weaknesses of shared universes. Or maybe the central committee decided ‘our hero’ couldn’t have an ending that dark. I dunno. Whatever that was made no sense to me.
Im not so sure. The show didnt shy away from showing Wanda as being a bit morally in the wrong even when they said that line. She did give up her family, including her boys, for an entire town. Im not so sure many people would do that. IT was selfless even if she did start it and was in the wrong.
Now to something different. ITs clear this will have effects on the MCU, and i was talking about it to some of the young kids i was working with and none of them saw it because it was weird. So i wonder how many are going to go into say, Doctor Strange and wonder why suddenly is looking for her kids they never knew she had.
I'm not TOO worried about that, the show is literally called Wandavision. I think if Wanda or Vision show up, it's quite easy for people to go 'well, stuff happened in the TV show named after them.'
I'm a little bit more concerned about Monica Rambeau showing up with superpowers in a film without at least some recap of (1) Who she is at all and (2) Why she has powers.
But this could be accomplished quite easily on the characters introduction scene - like Wandavision recapped us on who Darcy was, so I'm not really that worried.
So, Wanda has a huge mental breakdown and a powerful Witch is manipulating her pretty much the entire time. But Wanda is the bad guy. I grant she did bad things. But none of it was her actively choosing to do it.
Yeah, put simply evil requires intent, and there's zero argument for Wanda intending any of it. In fact she explicitly states she believes that the Westview folks were in a good place.
Although I can see the world at large utterly ignoring that fact and relentless hounding and persecution becoming a self fulfilling prophecy in the near future.
Azreal13 wrote: Yeah, put simply evil requires intent, and there's zero argument for Wanda intending any of it.
Who cares about 'evil?' Responsibility, guilt, repercussions... intent is a very small part of that whole package. Someone plows a kid over with a car, their 'intent' doesn't matter much.
Hulksmash wrote: I mean haywood did drive her into it. Would wanda have lost her mind if haywood hadnt delighted in showing her visions chop shop or if she'd been allowed to bury him?
I don't buy that at all.
It was her doing. Haywood didn't push her over the edge, and he was right that he can't just hand over potentially billions of vibranium so she can put it in the ground.
Hulksmash wrote: Dude was willing to wipe out an entire town to get a working version of vision. So lets not pretend he didnt do anything wrong.
He had a working version of Vision. He was (rightly) worried that Wanda had created a new Vision under her complete control, after she captured and enslaved an entire town.
But no, he gets arrested for *mumble mumble* reasons and Wanda gets off with a pathetic "They'll never know what you sacrificed for them!". Yeah I'm sure the woman who forcibly mind-controlled whilst having her daughter locked up in a room she couldn't go to for a fortnight is really cut up about what Wanda has "sacrificed".
Azreal13 wrote: Yeah, put simply evil requires intent, and there's zero argument for Wanda intending any of it. In fact she explicitly states she believes that the Westview folks were in a good place.
Every villain is the hero of their own story.
And we didn't say anything about Wanda being evil. Her actions weren't malicious, they were selfish. She did what she did out of her own grief and selfish desire to give herself whatever she wanted, and she didn't care who else that hurt along the way.
Gotta agree with HBMC, regardless of Agatha's personal manipulations, Wanda was ultimately the one who was in the wrong here. It's not like Tony with Ultron where he was trying to create something to protect the world and it went off the rails once it went sentient, something that neither Banner nor Tony expected or actively worked towards. Tony also didn't double down on keeping Ultron around or creating another version of him. Wanda on the other hand proactively maintained the Hex on Westview even after it was clear she was forcing the residents to live out her perverse fantasy life. Grief is no justification for harming or subjugating other people.
She certainly has no idea what she's done initially, there's a compelling narrative that suggests she isn't aware she's done anything detrimental until the finale.
Certainly the time between the townsfolk telling her what's actually going on to her relinquishing her control, ultimately sacrifing her family, is not long at all.
There's no arguing she's done a bad thing. There's no justification, but the show knows that and that's why she has that conversation with Monica. What's she's done is without justification, but Monica understands why she did it, and admits that given a reversed situation she may well do the same.
Trying to paint her as a villain or a victim is pointless because the whole show is too nuanced to allow for a clear interpretation of the facts, and that's part of its quality.
Hulksmash wrote: I mean haywood did drive her into it. Would wanda have lost her mind if haywood hadnt delighted in showing her visions chop shop or if she'd been allowed to bury him?
I don't buy that at all.
It was her doing. Haywood didn't push her over the edge, and he was right that he can't just hand over potentially billions of vibranium so she can put it in the ground.
Hulksmash wrote: Dude was willing to wipe out an entire town to get a working version of vision. So lets not pretend he didnt do anything wrong.
He had a working version of Vision. He was (rightly) worried that Wanda had created a new Vision under her complete control, after she captured and enslaved an entire town.
But no, he gets arrested for *mumble mumble* reasons and Wanda gets off with a pathetic "They'll never know what you sacrificed for them!". Yeah I'm sure the woman who forcibly mind-controlled whilst having her daughter locked up in a room she couldn't go to for a fortnight is really cut up about what Wanda has "sacrificed".
Azreal13 wrote: Yeah, put simply evil requires intent, and there's zero argument for Wanda intending any of it. In fact she explicitly states she believes that the Westview folks were in a good place.
Every villain is the hero of their own story.
And we didn't say anything about Wanda being evil. Her actions weren't malicious, they were selfish. She did what she did out of her own grief and selfish desire to give herself whatever she wanted, and she didn't care who else that hurt along the way.
We watched a different show. His version of Vision didn't work without Wanda's powers. He engineered her breakdown hoping she'd help him fix Vision and if not then he could take from her something to help. And then she created a new Vision and he had to figure it out and was willing to antagonize someone who could go toe to toe with brawler Thanos to figure it out with an entire town in the way. He got arrested because of most of the above.
Also, no evidence that line isn't referencing that Wanda would have fixed all of them. She's a master of the mind. Odds are good she fixed them but it's something we don't know yet. Not arguing she didn't do a bad thing. Just that Agatha and Haywood weren't innocent lambs. Also they aren't celestial power level beings like a certain someone.
d-usa wrote: Some replies offer a good view into how people view mental illness.
I mean I'm pretty sure Wanda experiencing grief isn't on the same level of having an actual mental illness, nor does it seem fair to equate that to a person who has literal reality warping power so um, I think you're kind of reaching there?
Grimskul wrote: Gotta agree with HBMC, regardless of Agatha's personal manipulations, Wanda was ultimately the one who was in the wrong here. It's not like Tony with Ultron where he was trying to create something to protect the world and it went off the rails once it went sentient, something that neither Banner nor Tony expected or actively worked towards. Tony also didn't double down on keeping Ultron around or creating another version of him. Wanda on the other hand proactively maintained the Hex on Westview even after it was clear she was forcing the residents to live out her perverse fantasy life. Grief is no justification for harming or subjugating other people.
Tony DID double down and try to build a second one. The whole argument/fight in the room where Thor comes in and wakes up the Vision is a scene where Tony is trying to double down. Tony is the biggest villain in the MCU. He not only creates all his own villains he creates a bunch for everyone else because he is selfish and thoughtless as to the consequences of his own actions. And then when civil war rolls around he goes, "Hey guys, WE need to be put in check. WE need to accept limitations." No Tony, YOU do.
Villains who exist either because Tony was willfully ignorant or because he was thoughtless.
Obidiah Stane - Didn't want to pay attention to what his company was doing. Whiplash - Didn't want to pay attention to what his dad/company had done. AIM (the whole organization) - Didn't go on that rooftop date with Killian that one time. Ultron - Ignored all the arguments why he shouldn't. Got lucky with Ultron 2.0 aka The Vision Vulture - feth the little guys. Vultures speach about Tony is 100% correct. Tinkerer - See vulture Mysterio - Called his lifes work BARF. Zemo - See Ultron and consequences.
Villains that will probably be Tony's fault in Armor Wars Crimson Dynamo Titanium Man Whiplash 2.0
Grimskul wrote: Gotta agree with HBMC, regardless of Agatha's personal manipulations, Wanda was ultimately the one who was in the wrong here. It's not like Tony with Ultron where he was trying to create something to protect the world and it went off the rails once it went sentient, something that neither Banner nor Tony expected or actively worked towards. Tony also didn't double down on keeping Ultron around or creating another version of him. Wanda on the other hand proactively maintained the Hex on Westview even after it was clear she was forcing the residents to live out her perverse fantasy life. Grief is no justification for harming or subjugating other people.
Tony DID double down and try to build a second one. The whole argument/fight in the room where Thor comes in and wakes up the Vision is a scene where Tony is trying to double down. Tony is the biggest villain in the MCU. He not only creates all his own villains he creates a bunch for everyone else because he is selfish and thoughtless as to the consequences of his own actions. And then when civil war rolls around he goes, "Hey guys, WE need to be put in check. WE need to accept limitations." No Tony, YOU do.
Villains who exist either because Tony was willfully ignorant or because he was thoughtless.
Obidiah Stane - Didn't want to pay attention to what his company was doing. Whiplash - Didn't want to pay attention to what his dad/company had done. AIM (the whole organization) - Didn't go on that rooftop date with Killian that one time. Ultron - Ignored all the arguments why he shouldn't. Got lucky with Ultron 2.0 aka The Vision Vulture - feth the little guys. Vultures speach about Tony is 100% correct. Tinkerer - See vulture Mysterio - Called his lifes work BARF. Zemo - See Ultron and consequences.
Villains that will probably be Tony's fault in Armor Wars Crimson Dynamo Titanium Man Whiplash 2.0
Tony is definitely not a perfect person and one who makes a lot of mistakes, but he's definitely not guilty of a lot of the things you're saying he's guilty of.
Gotta disagree with Vision, for one Ultron built him, not Tony. Furthermore, how is Vision in any way similar to what Stark initially intended with Ultron? Vision wasn't a worldwide defense system that he was envisioning in preparation for another potential alien invasion. He's basically saving what was left of Jarvis and using it as a tool rather than wasting a valuable asset that is, don't forget, made of vibranium, so it's not something you just dispose of that easily. Better to use it than leave it to be taken or hijacked by others.
To be fair for Whiplash, this was something that was more of a beef between Vanko's father and Stark's dad that was passed down to Ivan himself. Stark basically didn't even know the guy and the first thing Ivan does is try to kill him....soooooo I mean how would he know about this in any detail if his dad never bothered to share it with him? Not to mention Vanko's dad was the one who sold out military secrets which was why Stark's dad got him deported to begin with.
Obidiah Stane makes sense mainly because he was more or less a villain the whole time and Tony was in cahoots with the arms development up until he finally had a change of heart in the movie, so I mean, I don't exactly know how he wouldn't have remained a villain, even if Tony did fire him after he came back from being kidnapped?
He lied to Killian, which is an donkey-cave move, but frankly that speaks more towards Killian's instability as a person moreso than Stark. I mean if you get snubbed once, even if it's by your idol, I don't think that justifies someone creating a terrorist organization to push your bio-tech advancement and to try and control the US government. That's like saying that it's Jodie's Fosters fault that her stalker shot Ronald Reagan for not dealing with or giving into his delusions.
The one regarding the Vulture and the Tinkerer is kinda dumb since he's not the one who directly screwed Toomes over, arguably it's the people that he teams up with Damage Control are the ones who handled the situation poorly. Toomes never bothered actually reaching out to complain to Tony to begin with, Stark cleaning up dangerous alien tech seems more responsible overall IMO. Toomes also proves his point that regular people shouldn't have access to alien tech since it gets weaponized by them anyways.
Mysterio - Shows you didn't actually pay attention during the movie, if you compare the therapy scene during Civil War to the one from Beck's recollection in Spider Man: Far From Home, you can see Beck's take is far more exaggerated and how the audience laughing at him doesn't actually occur in the Civil War version, the audience is completely silent. Again, another sign of instability that Stark was actually right to call out and fire him over. If he had kept him, he could have become another Obidiah Stane.
Zemo - I'll give you this one, mainly because Ultron was definitely Tony's fault.
Yeah, Wanda did a very bad thing by taking over the town, but she believed that none of the townspeople were conscious of it and, in her grief, convinced herself that it was ok, because the town was in such a terrible state before she changed it. So she’s not innocent, but also not a super villain. It was only Vision who had really seen the evidence that people were suffering over the last 2-3 episodes and he was separated from Wanda for the entire time, so she genuinely only finds out that the true situation when Agatha releases them temporarily, at which point she immediately agrees to end the hex and release everyone, which will result in the death of her Vision and their sons, all of whom are definitively independent, conscious, entities. To paraphrase a different comic; “Without condoning, or condemning, I understand.”
Ultimately I think this is actually the most human I’ve seen a comic book property. Good people doing bad things because they’re messed up and don’t realise the consequences? That’s very real.
Edit:
Spoiler:
Actually Haward is pretty much the same; you can argue how much he engineered the circumstances versus just taking advantage of the situation (I lean towards the second, because seems pretty neutral in the flashbacks, even from Wanda’s point of view, and I don’t buy that level of “just as planned” nonsense), but the plain matter of the fact is he is willing to sacrifice the entire town in order to get the Vision back online. He is not really trying to stop Wanda and when Monica, Darcy and Woo try to point out the best way to resolve the situation (I.e. talk Wanda down), he ignores and then arrests them. So yeah, he deserves the status of (secondary) series villain, because he actively chooses to keep doing the bad thing when confronted with other options, whereas Wanda choose to do the right thing when similarly confronted. Doesn’t mean he is inherently evil, just flawed.
Grimskul wrote: Gotta agree with HBMC, regardless of Agatha's personal manipulations, Wanda was ultimately the one who was in the wrong here. It's not like Tony with Ultron where he was trying to create something to protect the world and it went off the rails once it went sentient, something that neither Banner nor Tony expected or actively worked towards. Tony also didn't double down on keeping Ultron around or creating another version of him. Wanda on the other hand proactively maintained the Hex on Westview even after it was clear she was forcing the residents to live out her perverse fantasy life. Grief is no justification for harming or subjugating other people.
Tony DID double down and try to build a second one. The whole argument/fight in the room where Thor comes in and wakes up the Vision is a scene where Tony is trying to double down. Tony is the biggest villain in the MCU. He not only creates all his own villains he creates a bunch for everyone else because he is selfish and thoughtless as to the consequences of his own actions. And then when civil war rolls around he goes, "Hey guys, WE need to be put in check. WE need to accept limitations." No Tony, YOU do.
Villains who exist either because Tony was willfully ignorant or because he was thoughtless.
Obidiah Stane - Didn't want to pay attention to what his company was doing. Whiplash - Didn't want to pay attention to what his dad/company had done. AIM (the whole organization) - Didn't go on that rooftop date with Killian that one time. Ultron - Ignored all the arguments why he shouldn't. Got lucky with Ultron 2.0 aka The Vision Vulture - feth the little guys. Vultures speach about Tony is 100% correct. Tinkerer - See vulture Mysterio - Called his lifes work BARF. Zemo - See Ultron and consequences.
Villains that will probably be Tony's fault in Armor Wars Crimson Dynamo Titanium Man Whiplash 2.0
Tony is definitely not a perfect person and one who makes a lot of mistakes, but he's definitely not guilty of a lot of the things you're saying he's guilty of.
Gotta disagree with Vision, for one Ultron built him, not Tony. Furthermore, how is Vision in any way similar to what Stark initially intended with Ultron? Vision wasn't a worldwide defense system that he was envisioning in preparation for another potential alien invasion. He's basically saving what was left of Jarvis and using it as a tool rather than wasting a valuable asset that is, don't forget, made of vibranium, so it's not something you just dispose of that easily. Better to use it than leave it to be taken or hijacked by others.
What I am saying is that halfway through the movie they capture the cradle and they are going to destroy it. Then Tony goes "Wait a sec... what if we DON'T destroy it and activate it instead? I won't even erase the ultron bit. Il just include this other bit and hope for the best!" He has a small argument with Banner then Banner caves because Tony ultimately bullies him at every turn, and then Cap shows up to go WTF are you doing? Are you crazy?
He messed with an AI and got ultron. And then he messed with a vibranium ultron and got lucky. He ABSOLUTELY doubled down when he decided to do that.
To be fair for Whiplash, this was something that was more of a beef between Vanko's father and Stark's dad that was passed down to Ivan himself. Stark basically didn't even know the guy and the first thing Ivan does is try to kill him....soooooo I mean how would he know about this in any detail if his dad never bothered to share it with him? Not to mention Vanko's dad was the one who sold out military secrets which was why Stark's dad got him deported to begin with.
It's the thoughtlessness and willing ignorance. Vankos name is on the blue prints for the ark reactor. He just never bothered to look at it. Or consider that anyone in his company is responsbile for any innovation other than himself.
Obidiah Stane makes sense mainly because he was more or less a villain the whole time and Tony was in cahoots with the arms development up until he finally had a change of heart in the movie, so I mean, I don't exactly know how he wouldn't have remained a villain, even if Tony did fire him after he came back from being kidnapped?
It's not that he wasn't a villain. It's that Tony was willfully ignorant. Not looking into it and unaware. He actively looked the other way his entire adult life until the one moment where he decided to clean up his own mess.
He lied to Killian, which is an donkey-cave move, but frankly that speaks more towards Killian's instability as a person moreso than Stark. I mean if you get snubbed once, even if it's by your idol, I don't think that justifies someone creating a terrorist organization to push your bio-tech advancement and to try and control the US government. That's like saying that it's Jodie's Fosters fault that her stalker shot Ronald Reagan for not dealing with or giving into his delusions.
Tony stark blew off a nerd because hes a nerd to go get laid. And in doing so was a jerk that made a villain. Again, it's his ignorance as to the consequences of his actions. He just doesn't care until it comes back to bite him in his own ass.
The one regarding the Vulture and the Tinkerer is kinda dumb since he's not the one who directly screwed Toomes over, arguably it's the people that he teams up with Damage Control are the ones who handled the situation poorly. Toomes never bothered actually reaching out to complain to Tony to begin with, Stark cleaning up dangerous alien tech seems more responsible overall IMO. Toomes also proves his point that regular people shouldn't have access to alien tech since it gets weaponized by them anyways.
He is though. He DIRECTLY took their jobs from them by creating a new company that gets paid for cleaning up the messes he makes. Damage Control is Tony profiting off the collateral damage caused by himself and anyone else who decides to have a laser fight in the middle of the USA.
Mysterio - Shows you didn't actually pay attention during the movie, if you compare the therapy scene during Civil War to the one from Beck's recollection in Spider Man: Far From Home, you can see Beck's take is far more exaggerated and how the audience laughing at him doesn't actually occur in the Civil War version, the audience is completely silent. Again, another sign of instability that Stark was actually right to call out and fire him over. If he had kept him, he could have become another Obidiah Stane.
People don't generally start off unstable. They become unstable. Your argument in a lot of these is that these people were destined to fall off the edge regardless of Tony's actions. But the fact is Tony was the one who pushed them. Often in his own ignorance. Or arrogance. Or carelessness. Let me remind you that Tony built a satellite (and likely multiple of them because Tony would want to be able to deploy anywhere in the world) filled to the brim with weaponized drones that could be deployed on earth at the drop of a hat and then gave control of it to a highschool ... Junior? 16 year old? He put him in a suit with a instant kill mode. A kid.
Tony Stark is a monster.
Also, Tony makes the argument that he doesn't make weapons any more. And yeah, the repulser is a flight stabilizer that he points at people. But the little rockets he fires out of his shoulders. The missile in the wrist that blows up a tank. The omni beam from his chest. The red crystal laser from his wrist. The nano tech amplifiers that condense lasers into a super laser, and the sword he makes from nano bots would all argue that he absolutely still makes weapons.
On the creation of Ultron, do remember that Wanda had screwed with Tony’s mind.
Tony’s saving grace? He never, ever shys away from the problems he creates, regardless of how they came to be.
Moreover, it’s all true to his character. Consider End Game compared to Avengers Assemble, when everyone is will waving on the helicarrier.
Cap (probably correctly at that point) accuses Tony of being morally weak, not being the type to make the sacrifice play, such as lying on the barbed wire (maybe razor wire?) to let squad mates cross in safety. Tony’s response? I’d just cut the wire.
Over the movies, we see Tony continually confronted with his screw ups. Whether it’s weapons he designed being sold to The Bad Guys, Ultron, Sokovia, The Iron Legion etc. We then see him, universally, tackle those problems.
Remember, Tony is what, early 40’s by the time he becomes Iron Man. All his life he’d known frankly outrageous wealth, and weapons design. He was insulated from the consequences of his actions. He directly addresses this in Iron Man.
I never got to say goodbye to my father. There's questions I would've asked him. I would've asked him how he felt about what his company did, if he was conflicted, if he ever had doubts. Or maybe he was every inch of man we remember from the newsreels. I saw young Americans killed by the very weapons I created to defend them and protect them. And I saw that I had become part of a system that is comfortable with zero-accountability.
That line of thought becomes the Iron Legion, and then Ultron. That was his way of protecting as many people as possible.
And we know he point blank refuses to share Iron Man technology with the military in Iron Man 2.
His clean up crew? It wasn’t about further profits for Stark Industry, despite what Toomes might feel. It was about ensuring alien technology doesn’t fall into the wrong hands.
Whiplash? As explained in a previous post, he’s nothing to do with Tony Stark. He’d never met him until the race scene. He never really sits down for a 1-2-1 with the guy. Whiplash, and everything he does post-arrest is solely on Justin Hammer and his sad penis envy.
Mysterio getting butthurt his invention was referred to as BARF? Had.....had he never actually met his boss? Like....ever? Tony is Mr Irreverent. That’d be like someone who knows me getting all murderous rampage because I used the word ‘bunghole’. A word I genuinely use all the time, because I find it amusing.
Sorry, waffling.
We then see Tony become ever more genuinely heroic, to the point he makes the sacrifice play Cap (again, probably correctly at the time he said it) said he was incapable of. And that journey starts in Iron Man, when he recognises he’s had zero accountability.
If only there was some public figure born into wealth, that’s never ever met the consequences of their actions we could contrast and compare with. But I’m afraid I’m drawing a blank. Bigly. Gosh. Crikey.
I am not saying Tony doesn't have a ark and isn't learning lessons the entire time. Or that he doesn't tackle his messes when presented with them. I agree. He absolutely does.
But other people pay for his messes first. And that relates to this WandaVision discussion.
Tony tackles his problems when confronted with them. but they are for the vast majority the consequences of decisions HE makes and OTHER people pay the price for those choices before Tony ever steps in.
Wanda didn't choose to enslave people. She didn't know what she was doing was magic. She didn't know about a mind control spell or how it could be applied to individuals lets alone a whole town. When the town is acting the way they do it's "magic on autopilot". Because the spell more or less cast itself. Yes. She is ultimately responsible because it is her power. And she DID try to clean it up when she started to understand the nature of what was happening. But unlike Tony she didn't CHOOSE to cast that spell. She didn't even know it was a spell she cast. Tony DID choose to build his weapons. He chose to ignore where the money was coming from. He chose to ignore the potential consequences of Ultron and then doubled down and just happened to win when he made Vision. He's reckless to the extreme. And if only he suffered the consequences it would be less of a problem. But I would argue thousands. Tens of thousands. Maybe even millions have suffered the consequences of Tony Starks blind arrogance.
When it’s a question of who is more dangerous between Tony and Wanda, I’d say it’s six of one, half dozen of the other.
Tony screws up through his over confidence. Technology is his life (literally from Iron Man to Iron Man 3). So Technology is his solution to everything. He genuinely knows no other way. And specifically, weapons technology.
Wanda? She’s walking mental trauma. Since she was a girl, trauma is all she’s known. From the moment her parents were killed, she’s been varying degrees of off the reservation.
The fact her actions in WandaVision were primarily not consciously taken makes her a significant threat. Her power level is clearly off the chart - and she’s only now beginning to learn to control it.
Spoiler:
And the end credits scene at least hints she’s going about that completely the wrong way, diving into a book of apparently unfathomable power.
Sure, she consciously controlled her powers, and brought that episode of trauma to an end. But that is not the same as her being in control of her powers and abilities.
Consider someone who causes fires just by their mere presence. They’re not a conscious pyro, so there’s no malicious intent. They can put those fires out all they want - and that is the right thing to do. But until you learn to not causes those fires, you remain a danger to yourself and others around you.
.
On reflection, I’d say Tony and Wanda actually mirror each other. Both just want to help. Neither is malicious in approach nor intent. But they both need to learn to temper themselves, and learn moderation.
In terms of overall threat? It’s Wanda, every time. If we look at End Game, she’s the only one that even comes close to singled handedly killing Thanos. He only survives because he was able to order his ship to ‘rain fire’. Hell, Captain Marvel fought him to a stand still (I love when he nuts her, and it just has no effect whatsoever. But Wanda very, very nearly kills him. I’d even say it’s arguable that had she been less grief stricken, and taking her time, Thanos would’ve been toast.
If she can do that consciously, then create West View unconsciously? We don’t know the extent of her power.
Spoiler:
And again, she might be about to gain ever more
We also don’t know a huge amount about the nature of Magic in the MCU.
What we know.
1. Prior to specific tuition and access to the right books, Dr Strange had no ability whatsoever.
2. Wanda has shown natural talent, before exposure to the staff.
3. Wanda gained something from the staff. Whether it was awakened abilities she already had, or added to them, isn’t massively clear.
4. Is there an upper limit to magical ability? Well, it’s not at all clear. And if there is, is it linked to natural potential, or access to learning?
Tony at least was limited by physics (even if pure narrativium can ignore bits and bobs here and there). Wanda? Well, seemingly not so much.
Final spoiler?
Spoiler:
That end credits scene....very, very reminiscent of The Incredible Hulk. Out in the wilderness, in a cabin, learning to control their abilities. That I do not believe to be mere coincidence
What do people think of the trailers/clips released for "The Falcon and the Winter Soldier" so far, given that starts being released in a couple of weeks? Nice to see Agent 13 in there.
Looks great. I am excited for a more active Zemo and to see the MCU version of Flag Smasher. I heard Batroc might make a return also? And U.S. Agent is a great character. Looking forward to that. All around excited for everything Marvel these days.
The TV show format is definitely refreshing following Infinity War and End Game.
Without necessarily criticising, the movies leading up to it predominantly developed the main cast - Cap, Tony, Thor, Banner etc. The supporting cast - Romanov, Hawkeye, Wanda etc did get some, but no specific origins.
The TV shows are certainly giving them their dues, doing the lifting work in a way movies simply can’t do, and with that comes the opportunity (so far seized upon) to tell more in depth stories.
I had feared they’d just be serialised movies, but WandaVision put paid to that concern. Will the others follow suit of course remains to be seen.
Grimskul wrote: Wanda on the other hand proactively maintained the Hex on Westview even after it was clear she was forcing the residents to live out her perverse fantasy life. Grief is no justification for harming or subjugating other people.
Right...she seems fully aware of what's going on when she ejects Monica from the hex. She just doesn't care. She'd rather hurt people to live out her Sims fantasy with her fake family. Apparently, Wanda will never know what the town sacrificed for HER. How would the other Avengers feel about this?
Again...I thought the show was actually building toward a legit heel turn for the character. And I thought it was clever and effective right up until the closing episodes. But it's like the studio got right to the edge and then freaked, scared of Wanda becoming the next Daenerys backlash as the article that HBMC linked to stated. It's possible (probable?) that they're 'saving it' for the DS sequel. But that makes me question how meaningful these new Marvel shows will ultimately be.
I really think people are taking the 'they'll never know what you sacrificed' out of context. I don't think Monica was trying to say others can't know Wanda's grief, I think that line is an acknowledgement that deliberately ending the fantasy of Westview was something incredibly difficult that a lot of people, maybe even most people, would not have chosen to do if they were in her shoes. If I lost my significant other but I could still be with her using Wanda's brand of make believe, it would take an unbelievable amount of will to stop living that fantasy. I think that's what Monica was trying to say, and it didn't even occur to me to take that line any other way until I walked into this thread.
Dysartes wrote: What do people think of the trailers/clips released for "The Falcon and the Winter Soldier" so far, given that starts being released in a couple of weeks? Nice to see Agent 13 in there.
It's the MCU series that I was looking forward to the most from the moment they announced it.
That has since changed - bring on Armor Wars!!! - but I'm still jazzed to see it as it'll be another post-Blip look at the MCU, only on a larger scale than what Wandavision and Far From Home gave us.
gorgon wrote: It's possible (probable?) that they're 'saving it' for the DS sequel.
The cynic in me says that any heel-turn Wanda goes through will be reversed by act 3 in that film as her and Dr. Strange team up to fight whatever the actual threat is. And we'll get another DBZ fight.
gorgon wrote: But that makes me question how meaningful these new Marvel shows will ultimately be.
More than Agents of SHIELD. That's for damned sure.
creeping-deth87 wrote: I really think people are taking the 'they'll never know what you sacrificed' out of context. I don't think Monica was trying to say others can't know Wanda's grief, I think that line is an acknowledgement that deliberately ending the fantasy of Westview was something incredibly difficult that a lot of people, maybe even most people, would not have chosen to do if they were in her shoes.
And what a lot of us are saying is that we don't think that matters. What Wanda did, even if it started as accidental, was horrific. And even when she knew what she was doing she continued to do it anyway. She sacrificed her fake family and imaginary Vision at the end, sure, and was forced to move into the 'acceptance' stage of grief, but the town owes here nothing. Monica ludicrous statement is an attempt to make Wanda a good guy again in the eyes of audience; the MCU's very safe attempt at a "Naw, she's alright! She's all better now! Yay superheroes!".
You can't enslave an entire town's worth of people, willingly perpetuate a fantasy land where they have no control and literally live out your nightmares when you sleep, and then go "But I freed them, so I'm clearly the one who's losing out here!".
You can't enslave an entire town's worth of people, willingly perpetuate a fantasy land where they have no control and literally live out your nightmares when you sleep, and then go "But I freed them, so I'm clearly the one who's losing out here!".
That's the thing though. Up until Agatha cuts their strings, Wanda legitimately believes everyone is happy in fantasy land. She's not aware of the nightmares and arguably, she's not aware they're not living the same kind of idyllic perfect sitcom world she is. We've seen their strings cut via Vision before, but she hasn't and is pretty shocked when first confronted by it, pretty much immediately setting them free.
Ultimately she's not a hero in the eyes of the town and will never be, even if Monica understands. That's... fine? She gives up her happy ending upon learning what its costing others and at that point its the best that can be done. There's literally nothing anyone can or even knows how to do by the end of the series other than walk away and move on.
That said, on teasers:
Spoiler:
Seems pretty likely they're pushing Young Avengers at this point. We've got Stinger, Kate, Wiccan, and Speed already. All the Skrullery seems like it could easily drop in Hulkling with Falcon and Winter Soldier likely to give us either Patriot or MIss America.
It'll be interesting to see how much Cap M and Dr S rely on WV setup. Thus far connections have been very, very mild and I don't really see that changing. Certainly Photon is an easy drop, given last we saw Monica pre-WV was as a little girl. She has powers now? Great? They don't need to explain the specifics when they re-reintroduce her into that franchise.
MoM is a little more curious. They could be adapting Triumph and Torment here, with Wanda stepping in for Doom. I really don't think they're aiming to make her a villain for a... lot... of reasons, but in any case, I think its important to think of it as a story framed from Strange's perspective. I assume it will somehow be written so that you don't need to have seen WV like the rest of the MCU, but the kids teaser makes that tough. Of course, we're probably getting another teaser at the end of Spidey 3, so it's possible this is actually more of a tease for that film.
Like, lets say Spidey 3 happens, there's some multiverse nonsense throughout the film but its not really explained. Post credit stinger, is Strange "fixing" it and realizing that Wanda's magic is the source of the problem. Strange 2 starts with Strange confronting Wanda who is trying to bring her family back. Technically fits but also doesn't require any information since Endgame, which is how the franchise has generally worked so far.
LunarSol wrote: That's the thing though. Up until Agatha cuts their strings, Wanda legitimately believes everyone is happy in fantasy land. She's not aware of the nightmares and arguably, she's not aware they're not living the same kind of idyllic perfect sitcom world she is. We've seen their strings cut via Vision before, but she hasn't and is pretty shocked when first confronted by it, pretty much immediately setting them free.
But she's still enslaving them. She's still robbing them of their free will. She's still changing things whenever she doesn't like it (see the way she just ejected Monica).
LunarSol wrote: Ultimately she's not a hero in the eyes of the town and will never be, even if Monica understands. That's... fine? She gives up her happy ending upon learning what its costing others and at that point its the best that can be done. There's literally nothing anyone can or even knows how to do by the end of the series other than walk away and move on.
But the idea that she was the one giving everything up, and that absolves her of what she did, is absolute bull gak.
Seems pretty likely they're pushing Young Avengers at this point. We've got Stinger, Kate, Wiccan, and Speed already. All the Skrullery seems like it could easily drop in Hulkling with Falcon and Winter Soldier likely to give us either Patriot or MIss America.
Speaking of those latter two, the former has been said to be in Falcon/Winter Soldier, and the latter has been cast for Doctor Strange 2 (quite appropriate, given the subject matter of that film).
I guess. I'm only familiar with America from the animated 'Secret Warriors' series Disney did recently, and there they just made her from another planet that the Kree also made 'Inhumans' on, and things went... badly, and her moms teleported her to Earth. I vaguely know her comic backstory is different, but whatever. It seems odd to run the same characters almost in parallel, but diverge in origin stories
Strange 2 is turning into far more of ensemble movie than I expected. I hope it doesn't get lost in all the backstories.
----
Also, randomly. Are the 'Legends' shorts on D+ worth watching? The description is vague about what they are, but they've got one on Wanda, one on Vision and now there's one each for Falcon and Winter Soldier. They obviously tie into the series, but I can't tell if they're clip shows of their movie roles, or there's actually content in the 7-8 minute bits.
Marvel made them because we went a year without any MCU releases, so they wanted to catch people up.
They're not required viewing by any means unless you need to remind yourself of anything.
As for Chavez, her comic origin is that she's from another universe. I assume that Secret Warriors making her related to Inhumans was part of Marvel's insane desire to make the Inhumans the next X-Men. Thank goodness that Feige got control of everything, otherwise that crap'd still be going on.
She sacrificed her fake family and imaginary Vision at the end, sure, and was forced to move into the 'acceptance' stage of grief, but the town owes here nothing.
No one said the town owes her anything. That's never a thing anyone says. Monica says they'll never know what she gave up, and she's right. None of them will ever be in a position where they can make believe their lost loved ones back to life and then make the decision to end it for the sake of the total strangers that got caught up in it. No one but Wanda will know what that's like because no one but her could have actually done that.
She sacrificed her fake family and imaginary Vision at the end, sure, and was forced to move into the 'acceptance' stage of grief, but the town owes here nothing.
No one said the town owes her anything. That's never a thing anyone says. Monica says they'll never know what she gave up, and she's right. None of them will ever be in a position where they can make believe their lost loved ones back to life and then make the decision to end it for the sake of the total strangers that got caught up in it. No one but Wanda will know what that's like because no one but her could have actually done that.
Sorry...I strongly feel that line is an offnote, weak attempt to reposition Wanda as some kind of heroic victim. I guess one can say that she's a victim of having a loved one taken away from her. But the overwhelming majority of human beings in that situation don't commit crimes against others because of it. Imagine a real-life version of what we saw -- a grieving woman kidnaps people and forces them to act our her fantasy of an imaginary family/town. How would we feel about that? With whom would the vast majority of our sympathy be placed?
I've heard people say 'what could they have done?' How about confront her? Tell her that maybe they can't stop her, but that what she did was wrong and that she deserves to be locked up -- in prison or a mental health facility. Monica should be the moral authority figure -- the Captain America -- at that moment, and what we've seen of her suggests she probably IS that type of person. Instead she sympathizes with Wanda...there's no suggestion that she's even concerned with what happened to the town.
Thing is, this is *just after* the townspeople confronted Wanda about the trauma she's given them. She did to an entire town what was done to her. Which leads back to my whiplash comment. Which is it? What's the show trying to say here? IMO, it's at least plausible that changes were made on worries of a backlash, and to be fair that probably WOULD have happened just because of how society and social media is.
She sacrificed her fake family and imaginary Vision at the end, sure, and was forced to move into the 'acceptance' stage of grief, but the town owes here nothing.
No one said the town owes her anything. That's never a thing anyone says. Monica says they'll never know what she gave up, and she's right. None of them will ever be in a position where they can make believe their lost loved ones back to life and then make the decision to end it for the sake of the total strangers that got caught up in it. No one but Wanda will know what that's like because no one but her could have actually done that.
That's just.... Kind of weird. The 'POV character is completely unrelatable and no one can ever understand' is not generally a direction you want to go. Especially for a story about grief and dealing with it, you want the catharsis of understanding and acceptance of why healthy grief is a social process.
Unless, you're intentionally setting up a character for being a villainous monster that's utterly alienated and lashing out because of it. But it doesn't seem to be going that way either.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I think people are really kinda being overly harsh on a comic book movie and real world implications of it.
Eh. There are good ways to tell stories and set up a meaningful message. 'No one will ever understand your loss, and it doesn't matter if you grieve in an unhealthy way that hurts other people' isn't a good story or a good message.
People do commit crimes from grief and they also enter pleas of temporary insanity.
Wanda absolutely committed crimes. Wanda was also not in control of her powers doing crazy things in her grief stricken insanity.
Shes not blameless, but shes also not malicious. She isn't Ultron trying to wipe out humanity. She isn't Thanos trying to wipe out half of all life so the other half can have more food. She isn't Yellowjacket trying to get back at his old mentor because he feels slighted.
Wanda's victims are all unintended collateral of something she wasn't in control over. Calling her a villain is just as disingenuous as anyone calling her a hero for shutting it all down.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: What Wanda did was horrific and wrong. But, it wasn’t conscious. She didn’t plan to do it, or even mean to do it.
We've acknowledged that. But even once she found out that she had enslaved the town, she kept it going. That's the problem with Monica's line at the end. It attempts to absolve her of her actions by making it out like she was the one hard done by.
There's no attempt at absolution. In fact I strongly suspect that not only is there a reckoning coming, that it will be a fundamental part of the immediate upcoming story.
Saying "I understand what you did, and I'm not sure I'd have done differently" is not a synonym for "what you did was ok" which is what you seem to feel it was.
Is it? At the very least, it's no less weird than equating Monica's line with 'omg you're the victim here.' That's not what she says. Period.
Azreal13 wrote: There's no attempt at absolution. In fact I strongly suspect that not only is there a reckoning coming, that it will be a fundamental part of the immediate upcoming story.
Saying "I understand what you did, and I'm not sure I'd have done differently" is not a synonym for "what you did was ok" which is what you seem to feel it was.
I didn't know about America Chavez being confirmed for the MCU this phase. I really hope they keep the best part of her character intact. That she punches literal holes in reality to travel between universes and basically functions as a one woman multiverse cop at this point.
Is it? At the very least, it's no less weird than equating Monica's line with 'omg you're the victim here.' That's not what she says. Period.
Yep. Whoever is (theoretically) claiming that in this thread has no bearing on the flat statement you made that Monica is suggesting 'no one can understand what she went through' when the whole thing is a metaphor for grief. Its entirely relatable to everyone. That's... actually the point of having a story about grief. To turn it around and say no one can is _very_ bizarre.
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balmong7 wrote:I didn't know about America Chavez being confirmed for the MCU this phase. I really hope they keep the best part of her character intact. That she punches literal holes in reality to travel between universes and basically functions as a one woman multiverse cop at this point.
The actress (Xochitl Gomez) looks fairly young, so she may not be a big part (or even have her powers) in the film. But I'm not really the best at estimating kid's ages.
Yep. Whoever is (theoretically) claiming that in this thread has no bearing on the flat statement you made that Monica is suggesting 'no one can understand what she went through' when the whole thing is a metaphor for grief. Its entirely relatable to everyone. That's... actually the point of having a story about grief. To turn it around and say no one can is _very_ bizarre.
Theoretically claiming it? Have you been reading this thread?
I don't even know how to respond to the rest of your post because I don't disagree with any of it. Yes, grief s relatable. Yes, most of the show is a metaphor for grief. So what? Why does that make it preposterous to suggest no other character in-universe could understand what it's like to end the illusion? It's true, because no one else but Wanda could have ever been in that position, because no one else can do what Wanda can do. It doesn't make her any less relatable. Monica's line is just acknowledging how difficult it must have been to end the fantasy and come back to the real world.
I don't understand why that's so controversial, but here we are.
Yep. Whoever is (theoretically) claiming that in this thread has no bearing on the flat statement you made that Monica is suggesting 'no one can understand what she went through' when the whole thing is a metaphor for grief. Its entirely relatable to everyone. That's... actually the point of having a story about grief. To turn it around and say no one can is _very_ bizarre.
Theoretically claiming it? Have you been reading this thread?
I don't even know how to respond to the rest of your post because I don't disagree with any of it. Yes, grief s relatable. Yes, most of the show is a metaphor for grief. So what? Why does that make it preposterous to suggest no other character in-universe could understand what it's like to end the illusion? It's true, because no one else but Wanda could have ever been in that position, because no one else can do what Wanda can do. It doesn't make her any less relatable. Monica's line is just acknowledging how difficult it must have been to end the fantasy and come back to the real world.
I don't understand why that's so controversial, but here we are.
Because you've never before presented it as 'acknowledging how difficult it must have been.' Just that 'no one could understand.' Those are two _utterly_ different concepts.
Yep. Whoever is (theoretically) claiming that in this thread has no bearing on the flat statement you made that Monica is suggesting 'no one can understand what she went through' when the whole thing is a metaphor for grief. Its entirely relatable to everyone. That's... actually the point of having a story about grief. To turn it around and say no one can is _very_ bizarre.
Theoretically claiming it? Have you been reading this thread?
I don't even know how to respond to the rest of your post because I don't disagree with any of it. Yes, grief s relatable. Yes, most of the show is a metaphor for grief. So what? Why does that make it preposterous to suggest no other character in-universe could understand what it's like to end the illusion? It's true, because no one else but Wanda could have ever been in that position, because no one else can do what Wanda can do. It doesn't make her any less relatable. Monica's line is just acknowledging how difficult it must have been to end the fantasy and come back to the real world.
I don't understand why that's so controversial, but here we are.
Because you've never before presented it as 'acknowledging how difficult it must have been.' Just that 'no one could understand.' Those are two _utterly_ different concepts.
It's literally right in my first post in this tangent.
creeping-deth87 wrote: I really think people are taking the 'they'll never know what you sacrificed' out of context. I don't think Monica was trying to say others can't know Wanda's grief, I think that line is an acknowledgement that deliberately ending the fantasy of Westview was something incredibly difficult that a lot of people, maybe even most people, would not have chosen to do if they were in her shoes.
Then I missed it. You've been harping on the other concept since, so that's what I saw and responded to. Since you doubled down on it, I had no reason to feel that wasn't your take.
They aren't interchangeable concepts so I don't know why you switched.
It doesn’t lessen it as a crime - but it is a mitigating factor in terms of punishment.
Problem is, there isn't any sense of _any_ punishment, nor that anyone with a name actually considers it a crime.
The victims probably disagree, but they're very obviously not given a vote, even after everything is over, they're powerless nobodies, still shuffling along, passively accepting being sorted out by indifferent authorities.
The irony is, she got punished more for trying to save people's lives back in Civil War. Here, she learned way too early that she was victimizing people (episode 5 definitely, if not before) for the level of indifference on display.
I just binged rewatched the entire show. I recommend others do it.
In episode 5 when vision confronts her about norm she says 2 things.
1) She doesn't believe vision that that is whats happening.
2) She doesn't believe she is the one doing it.
She makes the argument "You really think I am doing all this? Getting people up, getting to them to their dentist appointments?!" She's LITERALLY in disbelief. She doesn't think she is capable of what she is being accused of.
She doesn't know how it all started. Just when she saw vision again she let herself fall into it so she could grab onto the one thing she wanted. Remember End Game "You took everything from me..."
Then add it to episode 9 "You are making her say this! Stop it." then she panics when her powers start choking people unintentionally. Then she starts crying over the pain she is causing while she starts trying to shut it down and tells them to run.
She ABSOLUTELY does not actually know what is going on until mid fight episode 9. Wanda is not aware that people are unhappy in the world she created.
She also shows signs of knowing but not wanting to accept it such as realizing Monica isn't part of the play, banishing her, and leaving the town to confront the SWORD people.
Lance845 wrote: She ABSOLUTELY does not actually know what is going on until mid fight episode 9. Wanda is not aware that people are unhappy in the world she created.
Well I guess that makes everything ok then. Damn shame that the people in the town will never know what she sacrificed for them.
Ahtman wrote:She also shows signs of knowing but not wanting to accept it such as realizing Monica isn't part of the play, banishing her, and leaving the town to confront the SWORD people.
She wasn't banishing Monica because she wasn't part of the play. Wanda says she has what she wants and she is fighting to protect it. They tell her she is holding people hostage. And she tells them "You have the guns." From her perspective she was literally banishing an intruder trying to take the Vision away from her or disrupt her home that she was building. It never crossed her mind, in part because she didn't want to think about it, that she might ACTUALLY be holding people hostage. Again, she was ignorant that she could even do that. When shes talking to the vision about what she is doing to the town shes flabbergasted by the notion that she even COULD be in control of all of them all the time. She doesn't even know where to start on trying to do something like that.
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Lance845 wrote: She ABSOLUTELY does not actually know what is going on until mid fight episode 9. Wanda is not aware that people are unhappy in the world she created.
Well I guess that makes everything ok then. Damn shame that the people in the town will never know what she sacrificed for them.
Lets stop making that jump. The text you quoted me saying didn't say it was okay. It said what it is.
Lance845 wrote: She ABSOLUTELY does not actually know what is going on until mid fight episode 9. Wanda is not aware that people are unhappy in the world she created.
Well I guess that makes everything ok then. Damn shame that the people in the town will never know what she sacrificed for them.
Hear that, folks? Intent doesn't matter. I guess the Avengers are just as culpable as Loki for everyone that died in the Battle of New York. After all, it doesn't matter that our heroes only wanted to save people. Intent is irrelevant!
Ahtman wrote: She also shows signs of knowing but not wanting to accept it such as realizing Monica isn't part of the play, banishing her, and leaving the town to confront the SWORD people.
There's no question that she knows at that point. She clearly 'breaks character', forces Monica out...AND 'edits' the 'tape'. That's not a 'my gosh, what's even going on right now?' set of actions. They're conscious and calculated. They're PRESENTED as such.
If the defense is that she's mentally ill...fine! But kidnapping people and forcing them to act our HER fantasies means she is very dangerously sick and not the hero of the story. And applying even one layer of whitewash to that is just...dumb. If another defense is that this will all pay off in another movie...well, IMO that just underlines that Wandavision is ultimately not satisfying and not a very good MCU entry. Other than with Endgame and IW, a key strength of the MCU is that their works stand well on their own.
Not surprising. Did anyone think that one of Marvel's heroes would actually face punishment? Not to mention they have all of 4 female leads (Wanda, Widow, Captain Marvel, Gamora).
Ahtman wrote: She also shows signs of knowing but not wanting to accept it such as realizing Monica isn't part of the play, banishing her, and leaving the town to confront the SWORD people.
There's no question that she knows at that point. She clearly 'breaks character', forces Monica out...AND 'edits' the 'tape'. That's not a 'my gosh, what's even going on right now?' set of actions. They're conscious and calculated. They're PRESENTED as such.
No. They are presented as such by people sitting on the outside trying to figure out what is happening. The people who say she "edits" the tapes are people who assume that she is MAKING tapes to begin with. They are unreliable narrators. If she doesn't know that she is mind controlling people. If she doesn't know that it's spells. Do you really think she knows that she is broadcasting? Or that she is consciously making edits? Or could that just be another automatic function of the spells she didn't know she was casting?
If the defense is that she's mentally ill...fine! But kidnapping people and forcing them to act our HER fantasies means she is very dangerously sick and not the hero of the story. And applying even one layer of whitewash to that is just...dumb. If another defense is that this will all pay off in another movie...well, IMO that just underlines that Wandavision is ultimately not satisfying and not a very good MCU entry. Other than with Endgame and IW, a key strength of the MCU is that their works stand well on their own.
She isn't the hero in a hero villain dynamic. Shes the protagonist. This story isn't about heroes and villains. It's just a story about her.
I was wondering what this ending reminded me of, and this ties into the exact same problem that Wonder Woman 1984 has, when they basically handwave the fact that she has Steve Trevor meat-puppeting the guy he's possessing and they do stuff without his consent like sleeping together. Notably, both try to frame them losing their loved ones as a "sacrifice" when really the thing they did to bring them back was immoral and abhorrent in the first place.
She isn't the hero in a hero villain dynamic. Shes the protagonist. This story isn't about heroes and villains. It's just a story about her.
I think that's just using semantics as a way to avoid holding her up to a moral standard, and frankly that's pretty disingenous when she's been portrayed as a hero by being an active part of the Avengers for more than 2 movies now, and in a superhero genre no less, so it's not like she's a brand new character in a different setting.
You can tell different kinds of stories with the same characters.
Let put it this way. Is Bucky a hero? What punishment does Bucky deserve for his decades of assassinations? Where are his legal ramifications? Not only did he escape from his prison sentence, he never got put back into it.
I think that's just using semantics as a way to avoid holding her up to a moral standard, and frankly that's pretty disingenous when she's been portrayed as a hero by being an active part of the Avengers for more than 2 movies now, and in a superhero genre no less, so it's not like she's a brand new character in a different setting.
Batman is a "hero," he's been shown as such in many movies and is part of the Justice League.
The reality is that he's a mentally unstable rich boy who routinely breaks the law and cripples his victims.
Which is not to say I don't think Batman is a great superhero, it simply shows how some of the best "heroes" are the ones that aren't all black and white and show a little ambiguity.
Lance845 wrote: You can tell different kinds of stories with the same characters.
Let put it this way. Is Bucky a hero? What punishment does Bucky deserve for his decades of assassinations? Where are his legal ramifications? Not only did he escape from his prison sentence, he never got put back into it.
I don't see how Wanda equates to Bucky at all. Bucky was never a hero, he's a soldier that was more or less repurposed to become an unwilling agent of Hydra. In contrast, Wanda chose to work for Hydra of her own free will early on while Bucky was actually brainwashed into a killing machine, there was no agency on his end. Even after Bucky broke free of his brainwashing, he chose to go into self-imposed exile to search for his past, he didn't immediately join Captain America or his Avengers for protection. It's not like he went on a murder spree of all the people who were involved in brainwashing him. All he managed to do after being set up in Civil War was get deprogrammed in Wakanda and then he got dusted shortly after the Battle of Wakanda. He's basically just a guy trying to figure out what his life is after losing a huge chunk of his life for decades.
Wanda on the other hand chose to join the Avengers and publicly play the hero role with them, so she should honestly know a lot better considering she was with them long enough to fall in love with Vision.
I think that's just using semantics as a way to avoid holding her up to a moral standard, and frankly that's pretty disingenous when she's been portrayed as a hero by being an active part of the Avengers for more than 2 movies now, and in a superhero genre no less, so it's not like she's a brand new character in a different setting.
Batman is a "hero," he's been shown as such in many movies and is part of the Justice League.
The reality is that he's a mentally unstable rich boy who routinely breaks the law and cripples his victims.
Which is not to say I don't think Batman is a great superhero, it simply shows how some of the best "heroes" are the ones that aren't all black and white and show a little ambiguity.
Right, and I don't think anyone thinks Batman is a paragon of virtue (if anything it should be Superman as the "boy scout" if we're not talking about the dark versions that people love pushing like in Injustice and Synder's approach) but at the very least he's doing more than just beating the absolute tar out of criminals, he's also using his public persona of Bruce Wayne to fund charitable foundations and other things to help attempt combat some of the causes of crime in Gotham, but for narrative reasons they're never as effective as him dressing up as the Bat. Keep in mind that despite Batman being a control freak in many ways, he doesn't implant mind control chips to stop villains or criminals, nor does he direct his childhood trauma of losing his parents by targeting people that don't actually deserve retribution in some way, Bats always goes after actual bad guys. Wanda on the other hand forces a town that has nothing to do with her to do her bidding because her lover died...I mean I'm pretty sure if Tony lost Pepper in Iron Man 3 and he started instituting a mass nanotech mind control machine so that nobody would inflict harm on each other again that you would see that as a very villainous thing.
You're prepared to make that argument in defence of Bucky, yet aren't accepting that it's distinctly possible the same applies to Wanda?
Because for Wanda there are ample examples of her awareness of the reality she's made and that she's complicit in it even if she doesn't want to acknowledge it. For Bucky he's pretty much not present when he's sent on a mission other than carrying out the task he's sent out for, the only time he starts showing signs of breaking his programming is when he recognizes Rogers.
Bucky: Not a hero because he didn't join the Avengers
Wanda: Is a hero because she joined the Avengers
Bucky: Not at fault for his actions because he had no agency because he was brain washed.
Wanda: IS at fault because even though she had no agency and was unaware of her powers acting without her guidance she was not brainwashed?
Bucky: Just trying to figure out who he is and get his life back together.
Wanda: Just trying to figure out her life after she came back from dust with nothing and nobody.
It looks like the only real difference between the 2 is that Wanda decided to get a job.
Azreal13 wrote: Sorry dude, your arguments just seem hopelessly inconsistent. It's ok for X to do bad things because they do Y, but A is a total villain because of B.
You're happy to excuse one bad thing for completely arbitrary reason and condemn another for reasons just as arbitrary.
I don't see the confusion personally, for me it's a matter of scale and what their actions are. Batman beats up villains and criminals because they commit crimes and evil deeds. So does Captain America. As heroes they are mostly reactive. What neither of them do, however, is use personal trauma as an excuse to impose their will over others by using mind control or other ways of taking people's agency. Wanda proactively creates the Westview Hex, she wasn't tricked into it, she wasn't told to do it. She just made it. The worst part is that she does it to people who aren't involved with her in any way.
Azreal13 wrote: Sorry dude, your arguments just seem hopelessly inconsistent. It's ok for X to do bad things because they do Y, but A is a total villain because of B.
You're happy to excuse one bad thing for completely arbitrary reason and condemn another for reasons just as arbitrary.
I don't see the confusion personally, for me it's a matter of scale and what their actions are. Batman beats up villains and criminals because they commit crimes and evil deeds. So does Captain America. As heroes they are mostly reactive. What neither of them do, however, is use personal trauma as an excuse to impose their will over others by using mind control or other ways of taking people's agency. Wanda proactively creates the Westview Hex, she wasn't tricked into it, she wasn't told to do it. She just made it. The worst part is that she does it to people who aren't involved with her in any way.
The part where you are wrong by omission is that she doesn't CHOOSE to do it. It's not her imposing her will on them. It's her subconscious doing things for her outside of her will. She IS ultimately responsible. And in episode 9 when she is actually confronted with it she tries to tear it open and tells them all to run to freedom.
It's not that she is free from guilt. But saying she was an active proponent in inflicting this on these people is a incredible mischaracterization of the situation. It's kind of like Haywood saying she was radicalized by Hydra and teamed up with Ultron.
There is a bit more nuance to the situation then that. And the few simple facts you focus on are painting it in a light that is not accurate to the reality of it.
Bucky: Not a hero because he didn't join the Avengers
Wanda: Is a hero because she joined the Avengers
Bucky: Not at fault for his actions because he had no agency because he was brain washed.
Wanda: IS at fault because even though she had no agency and was unaware of her powers acting without her guidance she was not brainwashed?
Bucky: Just trying to figure out who he is and get his life back together.
Wanda: Just trying to figure out her life after she came back from dust with nothing and nobody.
It looks like the only real difference between the 2 is that Wanda decided to get a job.
It's not the fact that Bucky didn't join the Avengers that he's not a hero, it's because he chose to go into hiding and not get involved in righting his wrongs (not that he had much chance to begin with) or at least work through the consequences of his actions as a brainwashed soldier. Not to mention he hasn't really done anything self-sacrificial beyond helping Rogers go after Zemo to stop him waking the other Winter Soldiers, which is only prompted partly because Zemo framed him in the first place. Him fighting against Thanos' forces in Wakanda is pretty much him doing it for Rogers/the Wakandans that helped deprogram him. Nothing he has done so far would put him in the hero books IMO.
Wanda on the other hand turned her back and tried to stop Ultron from genociding humanity after finding out his plans. Then afterwards continued to actively help Avengers in fighting surviving Hydra agents. There was no reason for her to stay with the Avengers after Ultron was gone if she just wanted to stay alive out of self-preservation, but she chose to join them and their cause anyways.
Also, I'm still confused as to how people keep saying Wanda doesn't have agency when she proactively rewinds time and changes setting in Westview in early episodes. Even if she doesn't know the exact details, the way she kicks out Monica shows that she knows she's living a fantasy life.
Bucky: Not a hero because he didn't join the Avengers Wanda: Is a hero because she joined the Avengers
Bucky: Not at fault for his actions because he had no agency because he was brain washed. Wanda: IS at fault because even though she had no agency and was unaware of her powers acting without her guidance she was not brainwashed?
Bucky: Just trying to figure out who he is and get his life back together. Wanda: Just trying to figure out her life after she came back from dust with nothing and nobody.
It looks like the only real difference between the 2 is that Wanda decided to get a job.
It's not the fact that Bucky didn't join the Avengers that he's not a hero, it's because he chose to go into hiding and not get involved in righting his wrongs (not that he had much chance to begin with) or at least work through the consequences of his actions as a brainwashed soldier. Not to mention he hasn't really done anything self-sacrificial beyond helping Rogers go after Zemo to stop him waking the other Winter Soldiers, which is only prompted partly because Zemo framed him in the first place. Him fighting against Thanos' forces in Wakanda is pretty much him doing it for Rogers/the Wakandans that helped deprogram him. Nothing he has done so far would put him in the hero books IMO.
Wanda on the other hand turned her back and tried to stop Ultron from genociding humanity after finding out his plans. Then afterwards continued to actively help Avengers in fighting surviving Hydra agents. There was no reason for her to stay with the Avengers after Ultron was gone if she just wanted to stay alive out of self-preservation, but she chose to join them and their cause anyways.
First, She didn't help them hunt down Hydra. She was getting training for the job she had with the only people in the world she knew. Her reason for staying with the Avengers was it was the option presented to her. Her family was dead. Her home didn't exist. She just spent who knows how long being an experimental weapon. She couldn't go to the Avengers and be like... "Well that was some gak huh? Guess Il go get a job at my local Best Buy and start renting this apartment."
She didn't have a lot of options. And the Avenger path before her put her with people who wanted to do the right thing and offered her some training in what she could do to right some wrongs.
Also, I'm still confused as to how people keep saying Wanda doesn't have agency when she proactively rewinds time and changes setting in Westview in early episodes. Even if she doesn't know the exact details, the way she kicks out Monica shows that she knows she's living a fantasy life.
IS she proactively rewinding time? Or is the spell doing that reactively based on how she feels? By episode 7 when the house is all changing all over the place and shes sitting in the chair saying.."I... I don't understand why it's all coming apart..." you think she is actively guiding any part of the spell that is the Hex? You thinking she is proactive I think is a fallacy. Yes. She DOES proactively remove Monica. But she also does it by shielding and protecting her and removing her. At no point, even after being attacked by the drone, does she actively try to cause any real harm to anyone until she knocks over "Fietro" and then the final fight.
It's not a matter of if it's a fantasy life or not for her. For her she found a way to bring back Vision and she is clinging to the Vision being there. The rest of it isn't something she is actively a part of. She is trying to not rock the boat or risk loosing him again.
Again, this doesn't absolve her of what happened. But it definitely doesn't make her an active participant in it either.
You're prepared to make that argument in defence of Bucky, yet aren't accepting that it's distinctly possible the same applies to Wanda?
Its obvious that it isn't. Bucky is either on ice or buried under a web of commands. At no point was he wandering around making decisions.
Wanda makes decisions in real time to 'correct' how her victims are behaving. It may have been unconscious initially (but even that's in doubt since we get to see her 'create' Vision out of nothing in Agatha's trip through her memories), but by half-way through the series she's clearly making informed decisions, and lashing out at anyone questioning her narrative, even those closest to her.
Even at the end, she may feel somewhat guilty for her actions, but she's still indifferent to her victims. She could have easily not made a show of just walking through the to have a conversation, but that apparently wasn't even worth the effort. She gets in one last fear reaction from them, and really blatantly shows off that she's going to walk out of there consequence free.
At least one conversation between the various agency people about what they should do with her would have been nice, even if it ended with Monica arguing to let her go. The idea that someone actually gave a crap about the consequences of Wanda's action would've made it feel less bad.
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the way she kicks out Monica shows that she knows she's living a fantasy life.
Not even that. She actually walks out of the Hex and tells the agencies off. Completely brushes off the idea of hostages with a weak 'but you has guns' line, and then utterly demonstrates how useless those guns are by turning them all on Hayward. At that point she's clearly perfectly aware of her boundaries and that what's inside is completely different from what's outside. And everything inside is hers. Including the 3000+ people.
Lets recap a step by step of her walking out of the hex.
She is inside her house with her family.
They go outside because of noise.
There is a drone approaching her house, kids, and husband.
Monica speaks to her. Wandas eyes start to glow red (this happens whenever she is even using her telepathy to read minds).
Then Haywood nods to a guy who nods to a guy and Monica looses control of the drone. She asks for a reconnect patch.
Haywood says "Denied. Shoot the missile"
THEN Wanda walks out of the Hex and tells them off. She doesn't shoot or attack anyone. She tells them to leave her alone. She threatens sure. But hey, from HER point of view they just drove a drone up to her door, told her she/they want to help and then shot a missile at her entire family. It's amazing she didn't do more.
Bucky is a Hero. How can you argue that the man known as Captain America's sidekick is not a hero? He is a decorated War Hero.
Also, knowing the hex is there and the boundaries have nothing to do with knowing what is going on inside. She clearly did not know every minute detail of what was happening inside. I don't think she would have had people frozen and unable to move if she did know what was going on. She is not a soulless monster, as shown by her willingness to shut it all down when confronted with the truth, as opposed to doubling down on it and keeping it up.
THEN Wanda walks out of the Hex and tells them off. She doesn't shoot or attack anyone. She tells them to leave her alone. She threatens sure. But hey, from HER point of view they just drove a drone up to her door, told her she/they want to help and then shot a missile at her entire family. It's amazing she didn't do more.
Yep. She was super self-restrained against the people outside, and just warns them off. So what? She's still mind-controlling 3000+ people _inside_, and has no intention of letting them go. She just wants the intrusions to stop and everything to stay as it is.
But the moment she walks out and has a rational (if tense) conversation, its very clear that she's in complete control of her own mind and is making decisions. Earlier might be ambiguous (I personally have doubts, even in the first episode with the stop it/choking scene, she seemed like she was making a conscious decision about whether or not to let the boss live), but once she walks out (everyone else struggles with the boundary in one way or the other) and has a conversation about it, from at least that point on she's entirely guilty of what she's choosing to do.
Dreadwinter wrote:She is not a soulless monster, as shown by her willingness to shut it all down when confronted with the truth, as opposed to doubling down on it and keeping it up.
Uh... her _actual_ reaction when confronted with the truth is to leash them all and choke them out. _Then_ she reconsiders and gives the ones around her a chance to run- but she fully intends to keep the hex up- she raises the 'gates' to allow exits, but she makes no move to get rid of it.
THEN Wanda walks out of the Hex and tells them off. She doesn't shoot or attack anyone. She tells them to leave her alone. She threatens sure. But hey, from HER point of view they just drove a drone up to her door, told her she/they want to help and then shot a missile at her entire family. It's amazing she didn't do more.
Yep. She was super self-restrained against the people outside, and just warns them off. So what? She's still mind-controlling 3000+ people _inside_, and has no intention of letting them go. She just wants the intrusions to stop and everything to stay as it is.
Dreadwinter wrote:She is not a soulless monster, as shown by her willingness to shut it all down when confronted with the truth, as opposed to doubling down on it and keeping it up.
Uh... her _actual_ reaction when confronted with the truth is to leash them all and choke them out. _Then_ she reconsiders and gives the ones around her a chance to run- but she fully intends to keep the hex up- she raises the 'gates' to allow exits, but she makes no move to get rid of it.
Again, you take her powers acting on their own agency as her agency.
SHE isn't actively mind controlling anyone and thus has no intentions about them one way or the other. Her actual reaction to them is to quickly shut down the choking. Tell them she will let them all go. Uses her powers to start to do it while crying about how much pain she caused, and telling them all to run.
She wasn't raising the gates. She was disassembling it. She only stops with the immediate confrontation that in doing it she is killing her kids and husband.
Again, you take her powers acting on their own agency as her agency.
Sure, why not?
If you really _want_ to go this route, then fine.
Car accidents, gun accidents. We hold the user/operator responsible, not the tool. Diminished capacity (drunk driving, anyone?) is often grounds for more severe punishments, not less.
She walked into this town, created a fantasy world and enslaved and victimized 3000+ people. I don't give any craps about the vague possibility that she wasn't fully in control.
I have no reason at all to let her off the hook for any of the things she's done here, especially when I can see clear divisions between 'maybe, possibly she wasn't in full control' and other times when she _absolutely was_ in full control.
while crying about how much pain she caused,
Well, yes. _She caused_ Crying about it doesn't make it ok.
Again, you take her powers acting on their own agency as her agency.
Sure, why not? If you really _want_ to go this route, then fine. Car accidents, gun accidents. We hold the user/operator responsible, not the tool. Diminished capacity (drunk driving, anyone?) is often grounds for more severe punishments, not less.
I do want to go down this route. Your analogies don't sync up.
Wanda didn't get drunk then climb into a car. Tony DID get drunk and then climb into an iron man suit though. Gun accidents tend to not be perpetrated by people who have never seen a gun before.
Wanda LITERALLY didn't know what she was doing was magic for years. She didn't know it COULD mind control a town. She didn't know it could rewrite reality. She didn't know it could force people into complex narratives. Mostly... It actually can't. Agatha says as much. "Magic on Autopilot. How are you doing this!?"
I never said she was free of blame. I am saying it's not her consciously doing it. You attribute to Wanda that she has 3000+ people under mind control and torture by choice. But she never made a choice to do that and was unaware that it was happening. The entire nature of the situation was something she didn't even know was in the realm of possibility.
If all of a sudden my body was capable of causing point blank nuclear explosions and then a bunch of people die I am certainly at fault. But I didn't CHOOSE to do it. And that matters as to whether she is the "villain" you are painting her as. Anything at all that has to do with the Hex itself... not in her control and not consciously being done by her. It's many, many overlapping spells running themselves. Removing somebody from the hex? Thats a conscious choice that she makes and she makes it protecting the person all the way out. Not a single broken bone or bruise on her despite going through several walls. Shutting it down? That was her conscious choice.
She never picked up the gun or got in the car. She went to the plot of land the Vision bought for them both, and in her grief and loneliness her powers did their own thing.
She walked into this town, created a fantasy world and enslaved and victimized 3000+ people. I don't give any craps about the vague possibility that she wasn't fully in control.
I have no reason at all to let her off the hook for any of the things she's done here, especially when I can see clear divisions between 'maybe, possibly she wasn't in full control' and other times when she _absolutely was_ in full control.
while crying about how much pain she caused,
Well, yes. _She caused_ Crying about it doesn't make it ok.
It's not a vague possibility. It's what actually happened in the show. And again, it doesn't make her blameless. But it definitely doesn't make her someone who chose to hurt anyone, or even put them in danger. or even risk of danger. She didn't draw a weapon or climb into the seat of dangerous machinery. Her powers did things she didnt know they could do.
Lance845 wrote: THEN Wanda walks out of the Hex and tells them off. She doesn't shoot or attack anyone. She tells them to leave her alone. She threatens sure. But hey, from HER point of view they just drove a drone up to her door, told her she/they want to help and then shot a missile at her entire family. It's amazing she didn't do more.
So...you agree that she had full agency then. She leaves the fantasy of the hex, clearly demonstrates understanding of the real world outside, makes decisions about her actions, etc. She's 100% lucid and in control during that sequence. Saying "it's just her powers talking" makes NO sense. NONE.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Makes about as much sense as theorising that Haywood engineered Wanda's breakdown...
I was thinking about Hayward earlier actually. Yes, he's a jackass, but I think Point Of View bias is hitting people really hard with this show.
Had the show been the Hayward Chronicles, about the Director of SWORD trying to restore an Avenger to life and running into a minor villain (or even Agatha) mind-controlling a town and trying to stop them while getting Vision rebooted. Well, I think the reactions would be singing an entirely different song.
It reminds me a _lot_ of the Usual Suspects and Keyser Soze. Because its Wanda's story with help from Monica (and Darcy and Wu- past movie sidekicks can't be wrong); of course Wanda's actions are mostly positive, and Hayward is the evilist of evil villains and needs to be punished for... um. Trying to stop town-wide mind control that leaves people screaming whenever its broken briefly? Doing his actual job as the director of the re-imagined SWORD? One of those, I think.
Well, no. She never needed either to do harm, that's the thing with superhero stories. The kind of harm she does is much, much worse. She can enslave and victimize people, torture them for what... a week? two weeks? without pause, to the point that even their dreams are nightmares. Even under her control, they're screaming for her to stop constantly, protesting, fighting clawing at insides of their own minds trying to escape, trying to connect to their loved ones and literally tearing at the walls trying to get out but can't.
What she does to these people is nightmarish beyond belief. And no one is presented as giving even the slightest crap about them. Just that's its over, and she has to do a walk of shame in front of some (very deserved) angry glares- far less than what she deserves for what she's done. She was sympathetic when she was imprisoned at the end of Civil War; she's very much not sympathetic at the end of this (and goes a long way towards proving why people wanted those Accords).
But no, letting go of her fake family, that's a true sacrifice. Nevermind that she could totally just recreate them with a new Hex on her little cabin in Norway or where-ever. [Or just pick up actually real ones from another reality...]
Lance845 wrote: THEN Wanda walks out of the Hex and tells them off. She doesn't shoot or attack anyone. She tells them to leave her alone. She threatens sure. But hey, from HER point of view they just drove a drone up to her door, told her she/they want to help and then shot a missile at her entire family. It's amazing she didn't do more.
So...you agree that she had full agency then. She leaves the fantasy of the hex, clearly demonstrates understanding of the real world outside, makes decisions about her actions, etc. She's 100% lucid and in control during that sequence. Saying "it's just her powers talking" makes NO sense. NONE.
I don't understand why it's hard to understand or where the disconnect is.
She did not consciously create the hex. She is not consciously controlling any element of the hex. The Hex itself is a spell on autopilot that was cast from the distress of her breakdown and grief. Everything to do with the hex itself... thats not her making decisions. Everything else... thats her make decisions. Are people being mind controlled in the hex? Yes. Is SHE mind controlling them actively? Is she aware that she is mind controlling them? No. Thats the Hex.
People surround her and keep shouting stuff. She has a little break down, they all get choked. Did she consciously cast that spell? No. And you can see it. When she sees what is happening she immediately tries to stop it. She never actively chooses to hurt anyone except Fietro and Agnes. The rest she is actually not in control of.
Remember Raven from Teen Titans? It's a lot like that. Except she hasn't been trained since birth to control her emotions.
She is not consciously controlling any element of the hex.
From the very first episode we see her editing out things she doesn't like.
That's a conscious decision.
Exactly.
I don't understand why people keep handwaving these blatantly self-aware actions that show that Wanda is in far more control of her fantasy reality than people claim her to be. She isn't some damsel in distress that needs someone to break her out of her trance, she is actively perpetuating the Hex on Westview.
You don't need a character to literally spell out that they are know what's going on for the audience to know that they have agency.
I mean no one's debating that her creation of the Hex as an accident. It's not like she walked into that vacant plot of land and said "Time to make my own dreamland where everyone is happy as long as they do what I want! Mwahahaha!". It was pure grief and anguish that caused her to create the Hex. Not something she meant to do.
But after that? Different story. In the first few episodes she's changing things by choice whenever they intrude upon her fantasy. By the fourth episode, to the shock of many, she straight up leaves the Hex, tells everyone to feth off and leave her alone, and then walks back in to resume her purposeful control of a small town.
She may not have meant to start it, but she sure as hell is perpetuating it.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I mean no one's debating that her creation of the Hex as an accident. It's not like she walked into that vacant plot of land and said "Time to make my own dreamland where everyone is happy as long as they do what I want! Mwahahaha!". It was pure grief and anguish that caused her to create the Hex. Not something she meant to do.
But after that? Different story. In the first few episodes she's changing things by choice whenever they intrude upon her fantasy. By the fourth episode, to the shock of many, she straight up leaves the Hex, tells everyone to feth off and leave her alone, and then walks back in to resume her purposeful control of a small town.
She may not have meant to start it, but she sure as hell is perpetuating it.
But what I am saying is that just like how she didn't understand the making of it, she also didn't understand the nature of it. When she saw everyone within it being happy, she thought they were happy. She didn't know it was locking away children. She didn't know it was stripping away peoples free will. She didn't look into it either, agreed. But saying she willfully kept everyone doing exactly what she wanted is entirely different. She didn't even know that was a thing she COULD do let alone something she was doing all show.
But what I am saying is that just like how she didn't understand the making of it, she also didn't understand the nature of it. When she saw everyone within it being happy, she thought they were happy. She didn't know it was locking away children. She didn't know it was stripping away peoples free will. She didn't look into it either, agreed. But saying she willfully kept everyone doing exactly what she wanted is entirely different. She didn't even know that was a thing she COULD do let alone something she was doing all show.
Which is specifically why every time someone comments on a flaw in the world it breaks for a second.
Also worth mentioning that her "edits" I believe are almost entirely confined to rejecting outside influence or helping her own family. The major ones are removing Monica and the Beekeeper and lashing out against the drone strike. Beyond that the main one is the second child so Vision can also have the name he wants.
Not understanding how is not the same as not consciously doing it. I very much doubt she understand how she flies, throws energy blasts or manipulates people's minds, but I don't expect people to argue that she was somehow never doing any of that on purpose over the course of 4-5 movies.
Voss wrote: Not understanding how is not the same as not consciously doing it. I very much doubt she understand how she flies, throws energy blasts or manipulates people's minds, but I don't expect people to argue that she was somehow never doing any of that on purpose over the course of 4-5 movies.
Exactly. That's the same as saying undereducated gangsters using guns in a turf war are not consciously committing acts of violence simply because they don't understand the mechanics or science of how a gun works besides pulling the trigger.
“There’s so much conversation about taking Westview hostage in the finale as it is,” WandaVision director Matt Shakman notes. In that mid-episode scene, “We have Agatha really bringing it to Wanda, saying, ‘Are you a hero or are you a villain? Heroes don’t torture people.’ That’s a huge moment in the finale, when Wanda has to wrestle with that.”
Speaking to the scene following the Hex’s collapse, head writer Jac Schaeffer tells TVLine, “I think Wanda’s walk of shame back into the town is really powerful, and it was written as such on the page. It was meant to be like an assault of death glares from people, and we were meant to feel how angry they all are.
“I remember a note from [Marvel Studios chief] Kevin [Feige] being like, ‘More, more, let’s feel that for her, let’s understand that what she did was terrible,'” Schaeffer adds.
To those who wished a happier ending for Westview, “No, that’s not the story we’re telling, that now [Wanda] has to make everything OK,” Schaeffer says. “It wasn’t about landing her in a way where it’s like, ‘Everything’s wrapped up and squeaky clean, and she’s a hero and has done no wrong!’ She’s done a lot of wrong. And there will probably be reckonings down the line. No, I like how that’s in the gray area of misdeeds that she’s been involved in.”
As director of the Wanda/Monica scene at the end, Shakman says “there were many versions of that, for sure, but nothing that was much longer.” He then echoes Schaeffer’s reverence for the complicated moment, saying, “I think it’s a beautiful scene. We’re not trying to let Wanda off the hook at all. The daggers that she’s getting from every townsperson as she walks through town should clearly show that she’s not being forgiven, and she won’t be forgiven, by them. She understands that.”
“There’s so much conversation about taking Westview hostage in the finale as it is,” WandaVision director Matt Shakman notes. In that mid-episode scene, “We have Agatha really bringing it to Wanda, saying, ‘Are you a hero or are you a villain? Heroes don’t torture people.’ That’s a huge moment in the finale, when Wanda has to wrestle with that.”
Speaking to the scene following the Hex’s collapse, head writer Jac Schaeffer tells TVLine, “I think Wanda’s walk of shame back into the town is really powerful, and it was written as such on the page. It was meant to be like an assault of death glares from people, and we were meant to feel how angry they all are.
“I remember a note from [Marvel Studios chief] Kevin [Feige] being like, ‘More, more, let’s feel that for her, let’s understand that what she did was terrible,'” Schaeffer adds.
To those who wished a happier ending for Westview, “No, that’s not the story we’re telling, that now [Wanda] has to make everything OK,” Schaeffer says. “It wasn’t about landing her in a way where it’s like, ‘Everything’s wrapped up and squeaky clean, and she’s a hero and has done no wrong!’ She’s done a lot of wrong. And there will probably be reckonings down the line. No, I like how that’s in the gray area of misdeeds that she’s been involved in.”
As director of the Wanda/Monica scene at the end, Shakman says “there were many versions of that, for sure, but nothing that was much longer.” He then echoes Schaeffer’s reverence for the complicated moment, saying, “I think it’s a beautiful scene. We’re not trying to let Wanda off the hook at all. The daggers that she’s getting from every townsperson as she walks through town should clearly show that she’s not being forgiven, and she won’t be forgiven, by them. She understands that.”
This just makes Monica's line even worse.
Yeah, makes you wonder why they bothered including that line for her if they wanted to spin Wanda off that way.
Gosh, her victims won't forgive her?
I'm shocked and moved by this 'revelation.' But angry stares aren't... anything. They don't illustrate her guilt, they demonstrate how powerless her victims are, and that no one really cares. [Which... would have been some manner of social commentary if it had been intentional...] She doesn't stick around to try to deal with it in any constructive way, she just... leaves.
After, you know, warping someone's mind into a personal prison and making their town her personal prison. Gosh, she certainly learned something today!
Her 'walk of shame' came off as arrogance. The thing about a walk of shame is, traditionally, its shameful because you have to deal with the people around you afterwards. Your small town, campus or whatever knows who you are, what you did and where to find you. You'll have to see that look day after day. If they're strangers you'll never see again, it has zero weight.
In that mid-episode scene, “We have Agatha really bringing it to Wanda, saying, ‘Are you a hero or are you a villain? Heroes don’t torture people.’ That’s a huge moment in the finale, when Wanda has to wrestle with that.”
It... could be. For someone who isn't Wanda.
Someone who didn't voluntarily join a terrorist organization for a power up, mind-frelled the heroes, didn't save civilians in time and got most of the worldwide blame for their deaths, sparking an entire thing about controlling superheroes, have to kill her lover only for it to be pointless, etc.
I doubt Wanda has ever had a single moment as an adult where she considered herself a hero. Agatha's 'zinger' would have just puzzled her. A huge chunk of her character is simply guilt and loss; none of her self-image revolves around being a hero. For most of the time that passed after she joined the Avengers, she didn't even exist.
Whew lads... loved this series and I cant wait for more Wanda/Vison stories.
As to the debate about Wanda not being in control and should bear more 'punishment' for her deeds...
Ya'll, why are you treating Wanda different than just about any other superpower movie?
Its not hard to look for massed injuries and casualties in these movies. And yet, the critics are largely silent about the moral culpabilities of the heroes/protagonists to the damage they've caused.
The closest I can think of are the recent Superman movies, where one of the plot devices was Batman's reaction to the damage caused by the fight between Superman and Zod.
Ok how about somrthing interesting.
The Ship of Theseus and white Vision and the debate they had.
Is white vision, still Vision from before the mind stone ripping outting?
I mean he has all the memories of old vision now, does that make him Wandas Vision? Are we not the sum total of our memories:?
whembly wrote: Whew lads... loved this series and I cant wait for more Wanda/Vison stories.
As to the debate about Wanda not being in control and should bear more 'punishment' for her deeds...
Ya'll, why are you treating Wanda different than just about any other superpower movie?
Its not hard to look for massed injuries and casualties in these movies. And yet, the critics are largely silent about the moral culpabilities of the heroes/protagonists to the damage they've caused.
The closest I can think of are the recent Superman movies, where one of the plot devices was Batman's reaction to the damage caused by the fight between Superman and Zod.
...am I off base here??
Very. Considering that was the whole point of Captain America: Civil War, and the focus of that was Wanda's actions.
And, oh look, that ended up with them in a secret prison, and Wanda in particular in a collar and straightjacket. Justified or not, there were actually consequences to actions.
Plus the side conflict of whether Bucky-the-Person was responsible for the actions Hydra used Bucky-the-Tool for.
Hell, it was a talking point at the end of the first Avengers movie (the news bit of the senator wanting to hold them responsible for the battle).
Its certainly the main fallout of the latest Spiderman movie.
The reason critics are silent about heroes and culpability in the films is because the films actually try to grapple with it on some level. They're not always successful, but then don't just nudge it off the table with 'Oh, the story isn't about that.' Which as quotes about movies go, isn't quite as good as Kevin Smith's comment that Jersey Girl wasn't 'for' critics, but still rather ridiculous.
----
@hotsauceman1- We aren't (research suggests that a lot of other factors have some, equal or even more importance than personality or memories when it comes to human action), but Vision is a machine. So... tentatively yes. Vision has been restored from backups with potentially a little extra (experiences from inside the Hex).
On the other hand, there maybe some other extras from Wanda herself, given that Hex Vision is based on her perception and memory of Vision. Its going to depend hugely on how later writers want to run with the idea of Wanda's magic. They could decide that Wanda's magic is absolutely true or that her magic is tied to her emotions and inherently unpredictable (it is supposedly 'chaos magic'), and the new Vision is something completely different. Or some other sort of dreadful waffling that I can't predict. The Ship of Theseus debate could be inherently flawed, because their assumptions could be entirely off base depending on how the magic works.
Depends how much the Mind Stone provided a “soul”. And how metaphysical the MCU wants to get (which at the moment seems to be “surprisingly, quite a lot”!)
Easy E wrote: So guys, how much is this an argument for the sake of argument? 100%, 90%, 50%?
You are aware that you can choose not to participate in a conversation that you are not interested in, right?
Sure, but eventually the circular arguments hit a zenith, and some one needs to say so.
On a related note, I am glad to see that my prediction about the fans of the show not liking the ending came to pass. Endings are really hard because everyone has the ending they WANT to see, and instead get the ending the show gives us.
Ha, no. Endings are usually the easiest part, as the writers are usually working backwards from the end or are letting consequences unfold naturally. Beginnings are real difficult, as you have to get the audience invested in the setup without showing everything early. Transitions can be tricky as well. But not endings.
The problem here is the natural ending of the show was derailed by Agatha's plans, Hayward's plots and -especially-Wanda's sudden magical Chosen One destiny. All the plot threads from the beginning and the consequences of her choices are abandoned, unresolved in a hot mess.
The writers seem to feel they weren't obliged to write an ending (see "the story wasn't about that") and they've passed the buck down the road to some future movie or series. One day. Maybe.
Pretty good odds the actress will retire from marvel films or no later writers will bother picking up the threads before that one day happens.
Easy E wrote: Tell me a tentpole show in the last 5 years fans actually LIKED the ending of?
Endings should be easy, but like I said. There is the ending the reader wants, and then their is the ending the creator wants. They often clash.
It depends on how hard you're going to quibble about what you consider a 'tentpole show.'
I can only think of a few that people have complained about, and its usually something that even as an outside observer, I can see how badly the writers have mucked it up. But Battlestar Rebooted and Game of Thrones are the exception.
In my experience, the readers/viewers and the creators rarely clash. A studio or publisher might, but its largely unusual for someone to screw up so badly at the finish line. They either create flawed projects from the start (modern Trek), or something goes wrong.
The Wandavision behind the scenes thing that is up on D+ now is longer than any of the actual Wandavision episodes.
It's quite meaty as well, going into a lot of different things. I was surprised to learn that, when he was "regular" Vision (ie. not looking human) all of the prosthetics on Paul Bettany's head were CGI. I would've thought they'd have a quick thing to add on his head, but nope, just paint and dots.
Easy E wrote: Tell me a tentpole show in the last 5 years fans actually LIKED the ending of?
Endings should be easy, but like I said. There is the ending the reader wants, and then their is the ending the creator wants. They often clash.
It depends on how hard you're going to quibble about what you consider a 'tentpole show.'
I can only think of a few that people have complained about, and its usually something that even as an outside observer, I can see how badly the writers have mucked it up. But Battlestar Rebooted and Game of Thrones are the exception.
In my experience, the readers/viewers and the creators rarely clash. A studio or publisher might, but its largely unusual for someone to screw up so badly at the finish line. They either create flawed projects from the start (modern Trek), or something goes wrong.
I’d say Supernatural stuck the landing.
Strictly speaking, it has an Official Ending in season 5 (the end of its original arc), and a Genuine Official Ending in season 15. Both are pretty satisfying, and bring it all to a close. Both the Winchester Boys find peace in their own way, and without testing your credulity.
A huge amount of text has been written about how disliked the Supernatural ending was and definitely stands alongside Game of Thrones as an example of 'endings that irritate the audience,' - Even the groups that I'm a part of that have pretty much never mentioned Supernatural were talking about how bad the ending was.
I'd say Arrows ending was relatively uncontroversial. I'm not saying it was especially *good* but most discussions were about 'where does the Arrowverse go next?' as opposed to, 'such a bad ending' or the like. I suppose it helps that the ending was directly telegraphed in the previous season.
But yeah, Arrow just sort of ended and people moved on, I think.
Meanwhile, the (famously toxic) fanbase were SO bitter about the way Supernatural ended, they created a fanfiction fake alternate ending and managed to get it trending for quite a while.... I think it was a couple of months ago.
Eh. If I know anything about Supernatural from fanfiction, its that the two main characters are lovers. And that's just from summaries and character tags. So I'm not sure that's as significant as you think.
Yeah, of shows that ended recently I'd say Supernatural stuck the landing. It suffered more from covid not letting them do the heaven greeting the way they wanted but the idea and concept were there and importantly the characters were happy with the ending.
Sidenote Justified crushed it's ending.
I enjoyed Wandavision. I thought it was very, very well done. I'm ready for the more straight forward Falcon & Winter Soldier.
So to bring it back, i saw this interesting comment on reddit that i hope we see touched on.
Bucky would regularly go on ice, for who knows how long, and then be brought back for another mission, so to him, the Blip might have just been another case of going to sleep.
But for Sam, its not. This being gone for 5 years is alll new to him.
IDK if we will se it touched on, but i hope so.
WandaVision did a good job of 'touching on it', but didn't really follow through beyond setting up Monica's sympathies.
For F/WS, I would hope its the main thing driving the plot, dealing with the world after 5 years of people being gone and then coming back (as well as the aftereffects of people who _didn't_ come back- a true 50% snap would have resulted in about 25% of planes in the air losing both pilot and co-pilot, causing multiple crashes that killed the non-missing people. Highways similarly would've been chaos, as half the cars going 65mph suddenly don't have drivers).
But imaging dictators being gone, then coming back. Military ops going to hell, and then half the military forces just coming back years later, with no idea of what's going on. Endgame was just the start of a lot of problems, and this should be a good vehicle to start exploring the problems.
Apparently it’s just 6 episodes long, varying between 40 and 50 minutes.
Hopefully we’ll enjoy the same sort of timing from WandaVision, where there’s relatively little, if any filler, and every episode adds to the story, without treading water. Because done right, it’s a stronger story telling option than “we love your pitch, now just spin it out to a syndication standard 19 episodes and we’re in business”.
I mean, that can work - certainly I enjoy Supernatural which went that route. But there’s a lot to be said for concise, focussed story telling too.
Easy E wrote: Tell me a tentpole show in the last 5 years fans actually LIKED the ending of?
Endgame.
I would say Infinity War but I guess Endgame works too.
Not Endgame. Infinity War is the better choice for audience positive reaction. If endings are easy, than how come most fail? My argument is simply that endings are not easy.
Anyway, in my mind, a good ending is one that keeps the viewers talking about the show. Wandavision succeeded in that respect. Especially if it is a bridge between content like this was.
I look forward to seeing what comes of Falcon and the Winter Soldier as both actors can be really good in their roles.
Supernatural definitely stuck the landing for the series. I understand they wanted to do more. But they still did good with what they had and it worked well.
I’m liking the exploration of a post-unblipping world. People coming back five years later to businesses in tatters, and seemingly little will to help them.
And the new Cap looks well derpy. No post or mid-credits sequence though.
Wanda - mind controls entire town. Everyone but the occupants seems to be cool with this. Feels embarrassed. Flies off to live in the countryside and read THE BIG BOOK OF EVIL.
Spoiler:
Bucky - "Is there any way I can make myself feel MORE guilty about what I did when I was a mind-controlled slave?"
No offense to anyone but I'm gonna ignore the ongoing Wandavision debate and give my thoughts on EP 1 of The Falcon and The Winter Soldier.
Spoiler:
I liked it. Bit of a slow burner but with these two characters (especially Bucky) getting a good look at where they are headspace wise seems really important.
I thought the addition of the family dynamic with Sam was a great idea and allows further exploration of the effect of the snap/blip from yet another angle.
Bucky's scenes with the father of his victim were very good and Sebastian Stan does well with it.
Dont know anything about the group with the masks so Ill be interested to see where that goes.
Hopefully wont be too long before Zemo shows up as he is one of my favorite villains from the MCU.
Nice to see Redwing getting some screen time at the start
Overall, Id say 7/10. Slow but solid start with some interesting angles opened up.
Its not quite as instantly engaging as WandaVision, but that show was so out of left field that’s hardly surprising.
What it does do though is show solid promise. As you said, it shows yet more of the post blip world, and the havoc having half the population reappear after 5 years of being legally dead wreaks.
The scene is now set - terrorist threat, Cap replaced with a large chinned doofus. And I think we might see more impact from that. After all, replacing Cap as a symbol of America doesn’t mean a symbol of Cap’s America. Steve Rogers, so far as we saw, was apolitical. Yes he was a poster boy, but not for a specific party or wing of politics.
This new guy? I’m left with the impression he’s more of a political stooge than a unifying figure head.
I want to complain about the Disney app. I complained about the aspect ratio stuff back with Wandavision and the annoying way it framed the picture when it went back and forth. I figured with this I could watch it full screen just fine. Nope. The Disney app won’t let you full screen the picture. It cuts off a quarter inch frame of black around the whole picture the entire time. No option to expand to fill. So aggravating. I would take a screenshot to show what I mean, but the app actually blacks out screenshots. I didn’t even know that was possible.
Otherwise I did really enjoy the first episode of Winterfalcon.
Overall, Id say 7/10. Slow but solid start with some interesting angles opened up.
It has potential, but yeah. Little slow, but I like dealing with the Snap in this format far more than I would in a movie.
I dunno if I can take much more family financial planning arguments, though.
It has serious potential to go hamfisted on political messaging.
I kind of just want a supervillain they can punch in the face, and not an Evil!Cap and dudes in hockey masks mouthing a bunch of faux-hot-button 'issues.'
Voss wrote: It has serious potential to go hamfisted on political messaging.
I don't think they're going to hit CW levels of political preaching, where the show basically grinds to a halt as the characters almost turn to face the audience to deliver that week's 'message'.
Voss wrote: It has serious potential to go hamfisted on political messaging.
I don't think they're going to hit CW levels of political preaching, where the show basically grinds to a halt as the characters almost turn to face the audience to deliver that week's 'message'.
Well, no. I doubt they're going to manage Smallville's weekly 'Gayest Look of the Episode' either, though I might end up wrong about that. [And yes, it was almost always Clark and Lex, and pretty much the most entertaining part of that entire show]
But I expect at least one strangled speech about Freedom, Security, sacrificing one and deserving neither. Possibly from 'both sides.'
They've already made me feel uncomfortable about Sam, who had previously struck me as one of the most 'together' people in the whole Avengers MCU franchise.
But they're doing all sorts of weird pivoting on him. He was pretty gun-happy in the films, but for some reason he seemed pretty unarmed for the rescue mission. Casualties were ricochets, falling or handed over to the 'Red Drone' for direct kills. [And wow is that a crazy-good (or terrifying) AI. 'Get them off my back' is not an adequate voice command to activate a missile strike with multiple potential targets and a priority rescue in the immediate vicinity.]
Azreal13 wrote: It's Stark tech, the AI is probably on par with Jarvis/Friday, just without the pithy one liners.
I know. Its just that this show feels a bit more 'ground level' than the films (no gods, monsters, aliens, magic, etc), so the super AIs that inhabit Stark's world stick out a little more.
Plus the silly thing was doing so much of the heavy lifting that I was pondering as I watched it if it shouldn't be the Red Drone and Winter Soldier, guest-starring the Falcon.
Sam is literally just a bloke with some tech though, and not even an actual suit of armour like Dusty. Pretty much everything he does that can be classed as "super" is going to lean on the tech really quite hard.
I agree that Redwing has come to the fore seemingly quite suddenly, but then again when have we seen Sam do any heavy lifting since Civil War, where, if memory serves, he was also using Redwing quite a bit, but for recon rather than combat?
I like the feathers they’ve got on his new wings, looks slick. But yeah, Falcon is basically a worse version of Iron Man/Warmachine. Not the person, but the hero tech they use. Even the first (not counting the cave armor) Iron Man suit was better than Falcon’s newest gear.
I think there are a number of reasons behind the gun thing; one is that it’s Disney, so they’re probably trying to downplay the “guns are cool stuff”, secondly, on a practical level shooting with guns (pun intended) does increase production costs, because you have to have armourers and all sorts of safety precautions, etc. Even if this very high budget TV, it is still TV, so they will be looking to save costs where they can. But I also definitely think they’re going for some character development in here, with all of the Sokovia accords stuff they’ve been through and Thanos’s agenda, I think Sam is seeing that not every problem needs to be solved with a gun; being Captain America isn’t about being the best soldier, it’s about being the best person. It always has been, but I think Sam is just starting to really realise that (and I think it’s going to be a big theme in the series). It also mirrors nicely with Bucky trying to make amends for a lifetime of murder by doing law-abiding(ish) non-violent(ish) good deeds.
Red Wing still had a gun and a couple missiles though. Like, minimum crew on those choppers and Sam still killed like a dozen guys on that mission. Some of them with his own hands as he threw them into Cliff walls and left them to plummet to their death.
Azreal13 wrote: Sam is literally just a bloke with some tech though, and not even an actual suit of armour like Dusty. Pretty much everything he does that can be classed as "super" is going to lean on the tech really quite hard.
I agree that Redwing has come to the fore seemingly quite suddenly, but then again when have we seen Sam do any heavy lifting since Civil War, where, if memory serves, he was also using Redwing quite a bit, but for recon rather than combat?
Not so much coming to the fore suddenly, but accomplishing most of the work (rather than chasing after dips in flying squirrel costumes).
Sam not doing heavy lifting was kind of my point. Flying effects and drone vs helicopters aside, this was a pure fisticuffs 'normal guy vs normal guys' exchange. The 'supers' stuff, at least for this episode, is beside the point. Obviously this looks like its gearing up for 'we actually need superheroes' (to both inspire and to fight powered baddies), but at least for the first episode it isn't there yet. Its very much the opposite of Age of Ultron where the Avengers just wreck a bunch of idiots with laser guns.
Jadenim wrote:I think Sam is seeing that not every problem needs to be solved with a gun
I think that's part of the messaging, sure. But had he used a gun, he could have taken out the hijackers on the plane and everyone could have gotten on with their lives. Instead several helicopter loads of people died, as did most if not all the original hijackers. So, its kind of... weird messaging?
Voss wrote: I think that's part of the messaging, sure. But had he used a gun, he could have taken out the hijackers on the plane and everyone could have gotten on with their lives. Instead several helicopter loads of people died, as did most if not all the original hijackers. So, its kind of... weird messaging?
As long as we don't head into the problems the final season of Star Wars Rebels and The Clone Wars had, where main characters often never used their weapons to kill their opponents, but often to disarm or disable them. Lots of heads being bonked together to knock enemies out, of lightsabers being used to cut apart weapons, or send people with jetpacks spiralling off into the distance rather than just killing them with the blade. Sometimes the good guys just straight up used the stun setting on their weapons in firefights. It was a truly bizarre choice.
Tons of people still died mind you, but they were indirect deaths, like shutting down the grav-plates on a platform, so we see a bunch of Stormtroopers fall to their deaths, but as the heroes didn't directly kill them, then that's ok apparently. And lots of faceless mook v faceless mook.
I really like what they have set up so far for Winter/Falcon. Excited to see how all the various pieces of this fit together. Zemo, Flag Smashers, U.S. Agent.
Predictions for the Falcon and the Winter Soldier!
Spoiler:
Bucky is going to be Captain America by the end of this. Falcon is going to spend all show trying to live up to the mantel and will be inspired to be better then he has been throughout the show by Caps example, but ultimately Bucky in looking for how to move forward and find purpose will find purpose with that Mantel.
I have no basis behind this, but I have a funny feeling that Zemo will be an antagonist but not the villain. I don't know why, other than it seems a bit too straightforward for the way Marvel have been recently.
Jadenim wrote: I have no basis behind this, but I have a funny feeling that Zemo will be an antagonist but not the villain. I don't know why, other than it seems a bit too straightforward for the way Marvel have been recently.
Maybe. But it is just a six episode run. It can't be too convoluted.
And frankly the MCU still needs people to step up and be villains. It too often feels like the 'heroes' are punching down on normals.
This is just wish listing, but I would love to see Zemo move on to a Thunderbolts team with Emil Blonsky (Aka: Abomination) and some other villains being forced into a suicide squad style hero team set up by the government.
So, who was the person in the Captain America suit in the end? Are we going to get Mandarined and find out he was just some guy?
Automatically Appended Next Post: As to the Gun thing.
Superhero and media for kids has always had a weird relationship with guns. Like Rebels, where Ezra used some slingshot rather than a gun like others. Why many of their toys have lazers or rockets, kids are not going to have easy acess to either of those things, but guns......maybe. and they want a plausible deniability around that.
Ultimately I think the idea is, he basically is just 'some guy'. - Or more specifically, a soldier that is 100 percent loyal to the Government of the day, without all that messy stuff like 'personal morals' or 'ethics' to hold him back.
I think it's EXTREMELY unlikely that Bucky will end up with the shield. That would just be... REALLY bad optics for Disney. Like, disastrously bad.
I think we're likely going to be having a more classic 'inherit the mantle' story, with Falcon learning that Cap really DID make the right choice for him, even though he can't see it himself.
With Bucky there to provide the emotional backup and support for it, giving Falcon his own blessing. - Overall, I think it's decently likely that Bucky might even properly die at the end of the series. But like, super heroically , in front of the world in a sort of 'redemption is death' kind of way. - Though that might be me seeing some similar allusions to Arrow's Oliver Queen.
Like, I can imagine a scene at the end of the series where there's statues of Bucky standing alongside Steve in the Smithsonian Exhibit.
Ahhh, I noticed the face and im like "am i supposed to recognize this?" cause it looked familiar.
This series does seem to be building up to some sort or Redemption/Reckoning for Bucky.
My theory is that the Flagsmashers are just a Hydra proxy organization ran by Baron Zemo(He is Hydra in this right?) and that the super soldiers are much of the same ones that where the supposed villians of Civil War.
hotsauceman1 wrote: So, who was the person in the Captain America suit in the end? Are we going to get Mandarined and find out he was just some guy?
Automatically Appended Next Post: As to the Gun thing.
Superhero and media for kids has always had a weird relationship with guns. Like Rebels, where Ezra used some slingshot rather than a gun like others. Why many of their toys have lazers or rockets, kids are not going to have easy acess to either of those things, but guns......maybe. and they want a plausible deniability around that.
That's a hard sell given how casual they've been already (both in the films and in the flashback portion of this first episode), and the other heavy themes in this.
Plus, Disney's got a pile of 'kids version' Marvel stories in the various animated series. (And SW Rebels makes sense in this context as well, given that they also had a child protagonist, which usually tends to change the rules).
Its also weird coming off WandaVision, given the sheer horror-stakes of that show, and the 'witchcraft' controversy-nonsense, which given this logic they would have also shied away from.
Anyway, we'll see. Maybe they're doing some weird good cop bad cop thing. But even the first Cap movie didn't shy away from giving Steve guns and letting him go to town.
This series does seem to be building up to some sort or Redemption/Reckoning for Bucky.
Yeah.... tone to me says 'reckoning.' The way they set it up (and frankly, the factors pushing him, including Steve leaving him with exactly zero connections at the end of Infinity War), it doesn't feel like a redemption set up.
Steves not dead. He's completely out of the public eye. Nobody but the Avengers who were present know that he stayed in the past and came back the long way. The public probably thinks hes dead. Or on the moon. Not 100.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Ahhh, I noticed the face and im like "am i supposed to recognize this?" cause it looked familiar.
This series does seem to be building up to some sort or Redemption/Reckoning for Bucky.
My theory is that the Flagsmashers are just a Hydra proxy organization ran by Baron Zemo(He is Hydra in this right?) and that the super soldiers are much of the same ones that where the supposed villians of Civil War.
No, he’s not Hydra (or wasn’t in Civil War at least); also he was very anti-enhanced in Civil War (he explicitly says he doesn’t want any more people like the Avengers), so I wonder if he’s actually running some dark hero-hunting unit? That would fit with his character as last seen.
Not only super soldiers in the Flag Smashers, but a forgotten American super soldier to boot.
Who is making them? Is there more serum? Is that what John Walker is really after? What will Zemo know? Will he help, or is he somehow behind it?
I mean, we know he’s not keen on super soldiers, hence Civil War. But there’s a difference between not liking super soldiers, and not liking super soldiers you can’t control yourself.
First off, I really like the introduction of Walker, deliberately making him actually a decent seeming guy, but laying the foundations that he is in over his head. It will be interesting to see how that develops.
By my count there are at least four factions in play now; Bucky & Sam, Walker and his buddy (“Battlestar”really?!), the Flag Smashers and whoever “the broker” is. I also like that the Flag Smashers are a somewhat sympathetic cause.
Korean War era super soldiers? Leaning into the “illegal military experiments on black soldiers, ‘cause no-one will notice” angle? Do I sense spin-off material? Also another chance for Hayley Atwell to get some work?
At this point I have no idea who the actual villain is going to be, this is going to be twisty.
Final thought 1; bye bye plot armour / deus ex Red Wing!
Final thought 2; aliens, androids & wizards! Awesome. Also sorcerers are wizards without hats. A) funny and B) very self-aware of the MCU
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also:
Spoiler:
Doctor lady-who’s-name-I-can’t-remember casually mentions that she used to go on missions with Walker? I’m sure that won’t come back in a big way at all. No siree.
Oh, wow, the espionage-double-dealing-cold-war-thriller feel of The Winter Soldier is substantially back in this. Very, very murky stuff going on. Most excellent.
Spoiler:
A question that has bothered me for a while is answered - after Cap went into the ice, there was absolutely nobody who could produce more supersoldier formula in the US? Well, turns out there was. And the pouches of it Stark had in his car when the Winter Soldier killed him wasn't the first batch, either. Hydra seems to have been mixed up in this, but the treatment of the Korean War era supersoldiers seems to have been down to good ol' fashion government nastiness.
I doubt Zemo is behind the juiced up Flag Smashers - after all, when he did have a chance to recruit a brainwashed team of supered-up Winter Soldiers, he shot them instead. But that doesn't mean he isn't behind the Power Broker - whoever is chasing the Flag Smashers.
The Flag Smashers are also looking really interesting. A whole group of people, with civilian help, who really do have the Thanos Was Right thing going on - they lived 5 years with the world population halved, and found they preferred it. They're angry, but you can see that there's a sane reason why they're angry. And thus far what have we seen them do? Have they actually killed anyone? Stolen things, yes. Got into fist fights to defend themselves.
And NuCap - is going to screw up. Because he's put himself in opposition to Our Heroes. But I don't think it's going to be through choice, and I don't think he's going to like it.
Graphite wrote:And NuCap - is going to screw up. Because he's put himself in opposition to Our Heroes.
Eh. To go back to the gun thing, I suspect its going to be more simple than that. The intro gave him some backstory, but they're definitely going for guns=baddies now. And everything about the jail visit felt stupidly sinister.
All the nuance in the show is going to the Flag Smashers, ironically enough. Everything else is waving all kinds of warning flags.
----
The ease of super soldiers is kind of weird at this point. Replicating the super soldier serum was supposed to be mostly failures with maybe partial successes (or hideous abominations). And Hydra was in a position to have access to it at various points, so either there's a huge 'forgotten history' of Supers in the MCU, or they're being lazy.
I'm also just a bit puzzled on who Falcon is working for. Can he just... suborn military personnel and flights because... Avengers? And Bucky can just invite himself along on classified missions? Its very strange.
Graphite wrote:And NuCap - is going to screw up. Because he's put himself in opposition to Our Heroes.
Eh. To go back to the gun thing, I suspect its going to be more simple than that. The intro gave him some backstory, but they're definitely going for guns=baddies now. And everything about the jail visit felt stupidly sinister.
All the nuance in the show is going to the Flag Smashers, ironically enough. Everything else is waving all kinds of warning flags.
----
The ease of super soldiers is kind of weird at this point. Replicating the super soldier serum was supposed to be mostly failures with maybe partial successes (or hideous abominations). And Hydra was in a position to have access to it at various points, so either there's a huge 'forgotten history' of Supers in the MCU, or they're being lazy.
I'm also just a bit puzzled on who Falcon is working for. Can he just... suborn military personnel and flights because... Avengers? And Bucky can just invite himself along on classified missions? Its very strange.
Ahhh. But Cap was the first stable super soldier. Absolute no drawbacks, flaws etc.
The guy they paid a visit to? We know he did serious jail time - but not why. His bitterness toward Bucky could be more “you did more murders than I did and got a reprieve” rather than “I did something and got a disproportionate sentence”.
We don’t know that whatever is powering the Flag Smashers is a permanent effect. It could just be super steroids taken before a mission.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: We know he did serious jail time - but not why. His bitterness toward Bucky could be more “you did more murders than I did and got a reprieve” rather than “I did something and got a disproportionate sentence”.
He was likely imprisoned for nothing, as the US Government experimented on him to perfect the super soldier serum.
Marvel's history is full of attempts to recreate what they lost the day Captain America was created. None of them have ever been able to reach the level of stability and perfection that Cap has. They're always cheap knockoffs that don't work well or have massive side effects (I mean, the project that created Hulk and Blonsky was originally another attempt at remaking the Erskine formula).
Chances are that Isaiah was the first successful attempt since Cap, so they sent him into the field in Korea where he did quite well, and then once he got back he became and unwilling lab rat for the next 30 years as the government tried to understand what made serum work for him.
Of course, we didn't just get introduced to Isaiah Bradley. We got to meet Eli Bradley as well. If Marvel wants, that kid has a bright and patriotic future.
If i was to hazard a guess
I think the supersoldiers may come from those special hydra operatives from civil war. Thats why Zemo and Hydra would know about it.
I think that the Power Broker gave the Flashsmashers their super powers, but they then abandoned the Power Broker, which is why they're on the run.
I also suspect that Walker (and maybe even Battlestar) will end up getting the same stuff from the Broker, giving themselves cheap knockoff super soldier powers, which in turn makes Walker evil, at which point he will randomly fire his gun (remember: guns = bad in Marvel) at children, like Director Hayward did in Wandavision.
Well, he's already alone in firing a gun at the 'bad guys'/freedom fighters, other than the definitely actual bad guys, so his status is already in question.
I guess that's the big division they keep lamp shading- 'Aliens, androids and Wizards, which made movie gun use ok. Even though... They never really fought androids that I can think of? Or wizards, really (except for Strange).
So...yeah, I guess Hydra and ex-Shield goons don't count (or random terrorists), even though they're WAY more common for Falcon and Bucky.
It does make sense to start introducing “next generation” characters now. Should hopefully avoid them feeling shoehorned in if we see them growing up in a world where Superhero’s are real.
Ah, right... Ultron had a fight where he had a bunch of useless tin can bodies. Forgot about that. But Falcon and Bucky weren't there for that anyway.
Ebony Maw is... um? Is he the telekinetic alien that they just called Squidward the whole time? Is he supposed to be a wizard? He just seemed a standard super-powered alien hench, if a vaguely important grand vizier sort.
Lance845 wrote: He was talking about spells and gak with dr strange the whole time. And summoned those ghost needles to stab him in the face.
He was for sure doing magic.
He was mocking Strange for being a wizard. And he had a long winded threatening rant about the 'ghost needles' being Space Surgical Tools.
If he'd been doing magic, he'd have been waving his arms about and creating shiny light patterns, rather than being largely immobile and occasionally flicking a finger.
Wizards also equals Loki and Malekith.
Aliens.
Also I'm not sure anyone on Earth ever even saw Malekith.
Also, they didn't have hats, so under the rules as described, they could never be wizards.
Remember, in the MCU, magic is just another term for manipulation of reality using dimensional forces.
Its a bit more scientifically grounded than magic from other sources
Lance845 wrote: He was talking about spells and gak with dr strange the whole time. And summoned those ghost needles to stab him in the face.
He was for sure doing magic.
He was mocking Strange for being a wizard.
No. He mocked his ability with magic. Not that he was doing magic. It's like tony stark mocking justin hammers attempt at making an iron man suit.
And he had a long winded threatening rant about the 'ghost needles' being Space Surgical Tools.
He DID say they were created originally for micro surgery. A spell made to help perform surgery.
If he'd been doing magic, he'd have been waving his arms about and creating shiny light patterns, rather than being largely immobile and occasionally flicking a finger.
Depends on both the spell being cast and how good a wizard you are. Remember Dr. Strange does some stuff without big shiny patterns. He made no energy symbols when he made a billion of himself. He teleported all over his house with Thor without making so much as a gesture. He changed tea into beer and refilled the glass without any visible sign of doing anything.
Yeah, Ebony Maw was never established as a magic guy. Otherwise he would have recognized the protection spell put on the time stone and not necessarily have needed to kidnap Dr. Strange and torture him to break it.
hotsauceman1 wrote: https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Ebony_Maw#Powers
The Wiki says he is a Socerer.
But again, magic is kinda shown to be weird in the MCU with no strict definition of what is and isnt magic.
I wouldn't take a fan wiki to be a legitimate source behind Ebony Maw being a sorcerer, especially since that segment isn't sourced at all in the References part at the bottom. I could just as easily edit right now to say he's Asguardian for the type of species he is and I'm pretty sure you wouldn't take that at face value.
There's nothing that you see in the movie that implies he has any background in the mystic arts. Otherwise we may as well call people like Jean Grey and other people with telekinesis wizards.
Aash wrote: Didn't they establish back in the first Thor movie that Asgard tech was "magic" in the MCU with some sort of paraphrasing of Clarke's third law?
And people seem to take this to mean that all magic in the MCU is just science.
Aash wrote: Didn't they establish back in the first Thor movie that Asgard tech was "magic" in the MCU with some sort of paraphrasing of Clarke's third law?
And people seem to take this to mean that all magic in the MCU is just science.
The point of Clarke’s third law is exactly that - all magic is technology/science.
Aash wrote: Didn't they establish back in the first Thor movie that Asgard tech was "magic" in the MCU with some sort of paraphrasing of Clarke's third law?
And people seem to take this to mean that all magic in the MCU is just science.
The point of Clarke’s third law is exactly that - all magic is technology/science.
The Ancient one also says as much. Call it a program if you want. See these 3 pictures of the human body? Each only seeing a part of the whole. Magic is a part of the natural world. It is science. It's also still magic.
"And people seem to take this to mean that all magic in the MCU is just science."
Exactly. While magic and science are two individual different facets of reality, Asguardians just see magic being as routine and boring as Earthlings see science, and use it accordingly in everyday applications. The only really notable spells to an Asguardians would probably be big stuff, like the enchantments on Thor's hammer, the Rainbow Bridge, etc. Hell, Asguardians are probably 99% post-scarcity through things like Strange's ever-filling beer stein, where while that's how everyday cheap beer is "made", and only the true artisans are defined by how they actually bother to spend the time making beer for real.
I've always seen technology, magic, and telekenesis in the MCU as just differing forms of reality-manipulation. Not much functional difference between WIFI and being able to speak with your mind. It all just involves specific parts generating the messages, and sending them to other parts capable of receiving those messages.
Not enjoying the show so far. Wandavision was a homerun in terms of storytelling, special effects and well thought out scenarios.
The fight on the trucks in ep2 was full of poorly executed CGI. Why did truck driver or passenger 2 not see Bucky get in the back of the truck right in front of it? Why was the lady from Solo sitting in the back of the truck for no apparent reason other than to be mistaken as a hostage by people who can see through the truck?
Who does Falcon work for? How does Bucky just stroll up to a base of some kind and get on a plane to Germany with no prior authorization?
I doubt it? That seems too large a departure. I could see it happening since they’ve been so reluctant to show them to us despite mentioning them repeatedly though.
I'm thinking maybe the Power Broker is Sin (or Viper/Madame Hydra?). Mostly because I'd basically never heard of them until they showed up in Crisis Protocol. I can't help but think maybe there was some kind of multimedia effort there...
It's definitely improved over the first couple of episodes I think. - At the end of this I was thinking, 'you know, I'd rather see more 6 part things like this, than another movie.' Which, kind of surprised me. The fact that we get to spent more time with the characters is great. - I imagine the 'new' characters this episode got more screentime than they did in all of their movie appearances up to now.
Yeah, that was much better. More coherent, somehow, rather than scrambling between pieces.
Madripoor was a nice touch, with an amusing little Easter egg in the sign for the Princess Bar without going whole hog and having Wolverine lurking in the background (at least, not that I saw).
The 'advertisement' for the GRC was stupidly heavy-handed though, as was New Cap.
Not sure I like the Sympathy Point accounting for Karli though. It feels entirely too mechanical, rather than a natural character arc.
Zemo is weird to me because in the movie came across as a totally different guy than what I’ve seen previous in comics and shows. He didn’t fight or anything, he just did a little behind the scenes manipulation con job, kind of a nerdy little bum. Now here it’s suddenly Wait you were rich this whole time? With the private jet and butler and his fancy fur collared coat, kicking arse in a fight and being all intimidating. Like his performance was great, it’s just a very abrupt shift in character from Winter Soldier it felt like, to one that more aligns with his comic self.
That was a much weaker episode than the first two. Breaking Zemo out was wayyyy too easy, as was getting Sharon's help. She was clearly very embittered toward Falcon and Bucky but then was like Mmmm K fine, I'll help you. They needed to offer her a way back home before she agreed to give them a hand, and even then... how the hell is Sam gonna do that? She would have wanted the details before agreeing.
This episode felt like it was trying to do way too much at once. I may have to give it another watch to make sure I caught everything.
Jadenim wrote: I think I need to watch that again, there was a lot of exposition, but one thought:
Spoiler:
Is Sharon the power broker?
I like that quite a bit.
Spoiler:
It also explains how she found this secret lab, and still thought she could operate in Madripoor after killing so many bounty hunters. If she is, I'm betting Zemo knows its really her and isn't saying anything. It also gives her motive for helping them- she wants them to find, and hopefully eliminate the supersoldiers for her, for stealing from her.
creeping-deth87 wrote: That was a much weaker episode than the first two. Breaking Zemo out was wayyyy too easy, as was getting Sharon's help. She was clearly very embittered toward Falcon and Bucky but then was like Mmmm K fine, I'll help you. They needed to offer her a way back home before she agreed to give them a hand, and even then... how the hell is Sam gonna do that? She would have wanted the details before agreeing.
This episode felt like it was trying to do way too much at once. I may have to give it another watch to make sure I caught everything.
In Age of Ultron they had a picture of Zemo in military uniform and said he was a colonel in some Sokovian special forces unit, so it’s not a total surprise he can fight; the wealth was more surprising to me than that.
I think it's probably safe to say that Sharon was NOT gone in the snap, giving her opportunity to have the time and space to set up her life the way she did.
So, as people appear in the show, they get added to the credits. It seems there are another 3 characters still to be introduced - "Missing/Lost in the blip" poster, purple sword and French writing "enemy of the state" poster, GRC courtyard with football and chairs.
Paper over the top of Bucky's control words just got revealed.
Spoiler:
something is really off about Sharon. I wouldn't be surprised if she was the power broker. And she makes it seems like she wasn't the one who shot the fence, but then who did?
I think that the new Cap or Battlestar will be those who helped them from the shadows. They're pretty explicit about wanting to follow/use them to track the serum/Flagsmashers
I think that the new Cap or Battlestar will be those who helped them from the shadows. They're pretty explicit about wanting to follow/use them to track the serum/Flagsmashers
Spoiler:
I figure the Power Broker had it done to eliminate a competitor and flush the gang out into a desperation move, and that Sharon is his minion. Its honestly a little to subtle for new Cap.
Of course that also means they ran into a fake scientist, or that the scientist couldn't replicate the serum again for some reason. But honestly the scientist's explanation seemed way too easy anyway: 'Oh, I just figured out how to do something that eluded the greatest minds in the last 70-odd years. No big.'
AduroT wrote: Zemo is weird to me because in the movie came across as a totally different guy than what I’ve seen previous in comics and shows. He didn’t fight or anything, he just did a little behind the scenes manipulation con job, kind of a nerdy little bum. Now here it’s suddenly Wait you were rich this whole time? With the private jet and butler and his fancy fur collared coat, kicking arse in a fight and being all intimidating. Like his performance was great, it’s just a very abrupt shift in character from Winter Soldier it felt like, to one that more aligns with his comic self.
And because he's not stupid, be knew that getting into a fight with any of the Avengers was going to go badly wrong - so he didn't. Not his fault the Avengers don't surround themselves with goons he could beat up to show his skills.
I hope not, but I despise Kang. He's just a walking plot device that gets used to try and fix continuity more than an interesting character. Granted, the MCU has proven its ability to revamp such things into something far greater than their source material, but... meh. I think anything they could do with Kang would be better served by Von Doom.
I actually hate all things time travel related and find it a lazy out of writing. Now that it is a "thing" in MCU, the question always is going to be "Why not fix it by going back in time?".
Then, it causes more headaches and writing issues than it really solves.
Easy E wrote: Kang the Conqueror better be the next Thanos-level threat.
LunarSol wrote: I hope not, but I despise Kang. He's just a walking plot device that gets used to try and fix continuity more than an interesting character.
Easy E wrote: Kang the Conqueror better be the next Thanos-level threat.
LunarSol wrote: I hope not, but I despise Kang. He's just a walking plot device that gets used to try and fix continuity more than an interesting character.
Kang will be in the next Ant-Man movie.
Right, but being in a movie and being the next Thanos are VERY different things.
The multiverse is a massively useful plot device to explain real life recasts, character resurrection etc, from a purely logistical pov it makes a huge amount of sense to establish it within the continuity without needing a big bad attached to it.
I think the next big bad will be attached to the next addition of newly acquired IP to the MCU, so it'll be a mutant if we see X Men, Galactus or Doom (or maybe Kang still) if it's FF etc etc.
Yeah. And I kinda like how they seem to be introducing it slowly, rather than just dropping it into a single film.
After all, when they’ve the runtime of Loki and Dr Strange 2, they can set it out and their version of the rules better.
They got away with brevity for time travel in Endgame, because they wanted to avoid diverging timelines. But with Loki making off with the Tesseract and therefore mindstone, who knows what havoc that could cause.
There’s also the question of exactly how Cap returned the Soul Stone! Not to mention what adventures he might’ve had getting everything back where it was. Time stone is easy enough. Just give it back to the Ancient One, and job’s a good’un.
The Spacestone would involve rebuilding the Tesseract for one, then getting it back into a secure facility without anyone noticing that “hey, isn’t that sodding Captain America???”.
And is returning them to the same point in time enough? Or is the fact of their absence, however temporary, enough to disrupt things?
There’s also relatively little preventing Cap as we knew him returning in the future to lend a hand - he only needs to be back and old for Endgame to pan out after all.
I think that Doom having already been on screen on multiple occasions, albeit out of the MCU, may count against the chances of his being featured for a while.
Definitely one of the strongest options though, carries that ambiguity the same way Magneto does in that he's not so much evil as simply has a different approach that's at odds to the heroic ideal. That gives him a depth and complexity rather than simply being a cackling Skeletor figure for the goodies to wail on.
Loki is the one I’ve been looking forward to. Wandavision really caught me off guard how exceptional that was. Winterfalcon has been a more... normal level of good. I’m really hoping Loki hits it out of the park, and gets a second main character I can slam their name together with.
I actually hate all things time travel related and find it a lazy out of writing. Now that it is a "thing" in MCU, the question always is going to be "Why not fix it by going back in time?".
Then, it causes more headaches and writing issues than it really solves.
Well the way they did it in Endgame established that changing the past doesn’t change your present, so you can’t change then to fix now. Old Cap does kind of undermine that though a bit.
So I have weirdly mixed feelings about FWS. It's not amazing, but I'm really enjoying seeing SO MANY elements of Captain America's world onscreen together in a grounded, Cap-like story. It's fun for comics Cap fans...or at least this one.
Trouble is that it's lacking Steve Rogers himself. This is the type of material that I would have liked to seen in Avengers 2.5 -- erm, I mean Cap 3 -- instead of a mediocre "Civil War" retelling that gives Tony Stark the main character arc. Just kinda underlines for me how much I wish they'd handled the character differently. I understand that their version worked "for what they needed" -- always the consideration in the MCU -- but it was so thin and missed important aspects of the character. Maybe in the next go-around...
There are good stories about the shadow steve rogers casts. Thats how i see this one. Steve is still basically the central character. Just how is everyone going to live up to him?
Trouble is that it's lacking Steve Rogers himself. This is the type of material that I would have liked to seen in Avengers 2.5 -- erm, I mean Cap 3 -- instead of a mediocre "Civil War" retelling that gives Tony Stark the main character arc. Just kinda underlines for me how much I wish they'd handled the character differently. I understand that their version worked "for what they needed" -- always the consideration in the MCU -- but it was so thin and missed important aspects of the character. Maybe in the next go-around...
I can't say I miss Steve in this. But Civil War was inevitably going to be 'thin' as a film (let alone an ensemble film). Its too big and nuanced to work in 90-120 (or even 150) minute big screen blockbuster where you've got to name and power check everyone, and have the big dramatic face off. The Disney+ shows are a much better place for it, as you can explore consequences, and render opinions as more than a soundbite.
AduroT wrote: Loki is the one I’ve been looking forward to.
I'm looking forward to it less now. I thought it was going to be a vehicle for AU Loki to end up in the main MCU (and maybe that's still where it will wrap around to in the end), but time shenanigans automatically undercut the stakes a lot. It no longer matters what happens to anyone in the show, as it can just be 'fixed' by liberal application of whatever flavor of 'time magic.'
Well, the sprawling comics Civil War (think there was over 100 tie-in issues?) was never suited for was billed to be (at least in very small print, LOL) a Cap solo film.
By including characters like John Walker and Isaiah Bradley and more screen time for Sharon, Bucky and Sam, this show is the kind of sphere expansion for Cap that I would have liked to have seen in a *real* Cap 3. It feels like a continuation of TWS, and I appreciate the creators for that. And in a non-Civil War Cap 3, maybe we could have seen the character actually become something other than a paper-thin 'man out of time' meme generator. In the comics, he symbolizes a living, evolving America. Not someone unable to move on from the past. But I'll spare everyone the diatribe.
Clearly the MCU's approach to the character worked for what the studio needed, and it was generally popular with audiences. It's fine, and I totally get that the movies aren't the comics. I just wish I'd seen a different treatment as a Cap fan. And it's disappointing because after TWS, I thought there were *really* starting to get there. Like I said, maybe in the next incarnation...which WILL come eventually. *shrug* In the meantime, I enjoy the show but it feels like it's teasing me with what could have been for a Cap fan like me. That's all.
Kinda new Lamar was for it when that fight kicked off.
Still not convinced the Flag Smashers are at all justified, which is almost certainly deliberate. As Zemo said, they’re supremacist in their approach.
John Walker, what a dick.
Lovely to see the Dora Malije back and kicking arse. I kind of like they’ve not mentioned T’Challa, what with Chadwick’s sad passing last year.
If people haven’t watched this show yet, I’m starting to lean toward “binge it” over the episodic view. It doesn’t have quite the same slow burn approach of WandaVision, which i largely appreciate. Certainly nice to see them not having an entirely set template for the TV shows, as they don’t really have one for the Movies.
Is this the first time we've heard about Bucky actually getting the serum? Up until now I thought he was just at "normal dude with a bionic arm" levels of power.
Who else forgot that Sam started out in the MCU as a trauma councillor? Who else was really glad to see him actually do that and begin to get through to someone?
Walker has gone completely off the rails, but in a way that at least makes sense.
In fact everyone's motivations seem to make sense.
Zemo's tiny moment of hesitation when he saw the vials. "Supersoldiers are evil. But maybe if I was a supersoldier I could stop all the rest of them...Nah" <StompStompStomp>. I wouldn't be surprised if that's the last we see of him in this series - he did what he set out to do and got rid of the remaining serum. He'll be quite content to let others kill the remaining supersoldiers. But I hope that's not the last of him in the MCU.
How the hell long has Karli been a displaced person? The blip was 5 years long, but she has no memory of her parents - well, maybe. Erin Kellyman's accent seems a bit jarring with that, though. And given that WandaVision paid quite a lot of attention to accents, I'm not certain that it's an accident.
Spoiler:
Also - loved NuCap getting the "we have jurisdiction wherever we damn well feel like it" card played on him, rather than by him
We’ve known Bucky was a super Soldier for a while. He does some feats of strength and such beyond just metal arm. It doesn’t really get talked about a whole lot though.
Also I remembered Sam was a councilor if only because recently I saw a post on tumblr analyzing his first conversation with Steve and breaking down the various therapy techniques he was using to get thru to him and get him to open up.
Really? Given all he does in Winter Soldier and Civil War you thought he was just a regular dude with a metal arm?
Anyway, it finally happened. I don't know how no one noticed him taking the serum, given we know the immediate effects are that it makes you feel like your blood is on fire. When did he take it? How did Battlestar not notice (not that he can tell anyone now).
On the bright side, at least Walker didn't inexplicably pull his gun on a bunch of kids.
Oh. Apparently Bucky was a super soldier even before Winter Soldier. I knew Hydra did it to him but thought it was part of that. Checking for a source on that I have now learned it was when he was first captured, before Captain America first broke all the prisoners out in the first movie. Zola had used him for experiments and injected him with it way back then, and that was why he survived the later fall from the train before he was recaptured and Winterized.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I went and dug up that post about Sam being a councilor for Steve.
The main character arc was Tony Stark's. Steve was just his foil.
Edit: Plus significant time is spent building up both Spidey and BP. Neither of whom are close to being regulars in Cap stories. The film was Avengers 2.5...I don't even know you could be arguing against that.
I genuinely can't work out what this show is trying to say.
Are the Flag Smashers sympathetic? No... they intentionally kill civilians and went out of their way to (attempt to) kill the new Captain America.
Is the new Captain America sympathetic? No. He seems unhinged, but unhinged because the plot keeps making him unhinged. Serum not withstanding, the man sitting in that locker room at the start of the series is a very different one to the petulant screaming reactionary that we saw in this episode, and that was before he could bend metal.
Is Sam a good guy? Well, he sides with the Flag Smashers, who it's unclear if we're meant to like or not.
Is Bucky a good guy? He broke fething Zemo out of jail.
About the only unambiguous group in this show are the damned Wakandans. At least they're honest about what they're doing.
gorgon wrote: The main character arc was Tony Stark's.
I’m enjoying being taken along for the ride, but do agree that it’s a bit unclear what the aim is. I think the flag smashers are supposed to be sympathetic bad guys and the new captain America is supposed to be righteous but overzealous, and we’re supposed not to be entirely on side or against either, with Sam and Bucky as the middle ground. I do t think they’ve really managed it, but I’m still enjoying the show.
What I didn’t like was the reaction to killing
Spoiler:
Battlestar
Why did the flag smashers run? Weren’t they trying to kill the people attacking them? There was even a comment shortly beforehand about being armed with knives. Admittedly knives aren’t guns, but knives are hardly nom-lethal, especially in the hands of super soldiers.
I'm still enjoying it. Walker's clearly gone into Crisis Mode from the pressure he's under, and the weight of expectations and a huge dose of imposter and inferiority syndrome.
So he's making bad choice after bad choice after bad choice. That he's now been caught out, and everything is unravelling further for him.
The Flagsmashers are supposed to be sympathetic... To a point.
The same could be said with Walker.
I think, thematically speaking, both Karli and Walker are designed to exhibit certain traits of Steve, - The inspirational person that fights for Truth, the little guy, what is Morally Right. Then, the heroic soldier, the Captain, the fighter, devoted to Duty.
Yet, both of them fall short in disastrous ways. Karli *fails* at being the Heroic Soldier, by targeting functionally innocents. Walker has failed at being the inspiration, spectacularly at the end of the episode. And, no doubt, will end up being a source of fear and terror (probably intentional parallels here with modern America on various aspects of the world stage.)
Then there's the questions throughout the episode of 'would you take the serum?' To me, that's clearly going for a, "the best leader is one who does not want to be one" aesop. I think the idea is, like the previous poster said, Sam represents the middle ground, he has the traits of Steve, that are exhibited by Karli and Walker, but he doesn't have their flaws, what makes them both, ultimately villains, albeit sympathetic ones.
- Admittedly I don't know where Bucky fits into this, I'm still struggling to figure out his role in the narrative, except perhaps as the Obi-Wan.
I would not be surprised if we have a situation by the end where Sam is forced to become a supersoldier for some reason, quite possibly actively against his will. Or maybe a situation where the only option to save the world from Something Bad, is to inject himself with a serum.
So, yeah, overall, I'm enjoying it. 6 episodes still seems a little short for everything they're doing though... Possibly 8 would have been the better number.
I am really enjoying Zemo's quest. The number of times he's managed to escape, and then comes back to Sam and Bucky. His purity of purpose in trying to kill supersoldiers makes him utterly reliable right up until he runs out of flagsmashers and finally takes on Bucky. When he does- will it be a fight, or some sort of previously unrevealed winter soldier suicide code?
I love the use of Turkish delight too, once again cementing it as the evil dessert of villians working with reluctant children everywhere.
Bucky has been "enhanced" in some way since WWII in Cap 1 when he was being experimented on by Zola.
Remember. Cap breaks into the prison/manufacturing plant. The soldier are all in cages (supposedly as guinnie pigs for zola) and Bucky was strapped to a table with medical equipment all around him.
Where did they get some super soldier serum from? Red Skull.
Bucky survived the fall from the train because of the experiments done to him. It didn't go full super soldier until later after he was recovered and continued to be experimented on though. Not explicitly stated, but assumed since he IS enhanced and they didn't have the whole beta ray chamber that Erskine used on steve to activate the serum.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I genuinely can't work out what this show is trying to say.
Are the Flag Smashers sympathetic? No... they intentionally kill civilians and went out of their way to (attempt to) kill the new Captain America.
Is the new Captain America sympathetic? No. He seems unhinged, but unhinged because the plot keeps making him unhinged. Serum not withstanding, the man sitting in that locker room at the start of the series is a very different one to the petulant screaming reactionary that we saw in this episode, and that was before he could bend metal.
I largely agree with rest, but disagree with this. Walker is exactly who he was in the locker room- a scared child who is in way over his head. His reactions are simply getting worse as the pressure increases.
But... I also think he's intentionally unsympathetic to a degree that is fairly absurd.
Also the writers are clueless about the Medal of Honor and that's really grating on me. I've done work with soldiers who've actually been awarded it (none of them talk about 'earning' it), and getting two is pretty absurd now (three has never happened, iirc. It was recommended once, but the the members of the military board went with Distinguished Service Cross instead), and multiple for the same action just doesn't happen (it legally can't happen now, and that's been the case since about WWI). They way they've handled him crossed the line into fairly offensive.
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I really like how they're handling Zemo, though. Yes, he's a donkey. But his devotion to his goal managed to surprise and impress me. I absolutely did not expect him to apply his boot to the windfall that landed at his feet.
Why did the flag smashers run? Weren’t they trying to kill the people attacking them? There was even a comment shortly beforehand about being armed with knives. Admittedly knives aren’t guns, but knives are hardly nom-lethal, especially in the hands of super soldiers.
It caught me slightly off guard too, but I think there’s a couple of good reasons; one is that they had just realised that Walker had taken the serum and they weren’t prepared for fighting a super soldier, never mind a really pissed off one. Secondly is that they’re a bunch of ideological civilians who, aside from Karli’s bombing, haven’t actually killed before, certainly not up-close; it’s one thing to talk about killing an enemy, even psyching yourself up to confront them, but actually going through with it? They’re not trained for it and I just don’t think they’ve got it in them.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I genuinely can't work out what this show is trying to say.
Are the Flag Smashers sympathetic? No... they intentionally kill civilians and went out of their way to (attempt to) kill the new Captain America.
Is the new Captain America sympathetic? No. He seems unhinged, but unhinged because the plot keeps making him unhinged. Serum not withstanding, the man sitting in that locker room at the start of the series is a very different one to the petulant screaming reactionary that we saw in this episode, and that was before he could bend metal.
I largely agree with rest, but disagree with this. Walker is exactly who he was in the locker room- a scared child who is in way over his head. His reactions are simply getting worse as the pressure increases.
But... I also think he's intentionally unsympathetic to a degree that is fairly absurd.
I really like how they're handling Zemo, though. Yes, he's a donkey. But his devotion to his goal managed to surprise and impress me. I absolutely did not expect him to apply his boot to the windfall that landed at his feet.
There's a huge missed opportunity on Walker really.
On the one hand they've really nailed the core of the character. Walker is someone who says he idolizes Steve Rogers, and maybe he did, but it's very clear he cared about all the wrong things in Steve's career. What made Captain America Captain America was his idealism and willingness to screw the rules and do what's right. In that regard, Falcon is doing what I think Steve would be doing in this situation, and try to reach out to the Flag Smashers before beating them. Captain America is what everyone wants America to be, our best selves. Walker on the other hand is what America is. A knee jerk reactionary more interested in taking action for the sake of action and doubles down on violent retribution with little rhyme or reason. Walker isn't a bad guy, but he clearly doesn't have Steve's heart and it was Steve's heart that made him Cap, not the shield and not the super soldier serum. Walker is cracking under the pressure of a job he simply is not suited for.
They've botched it largely because the set up for the story is insufficient. If Falcon and Carly weren't explaining what is going on in the world, I wouldn't know. The story has really done a bad job showcasing the humanitarian crisis they're talking about, so it makes Carly needlessly unsympathetic in how her goals and the problems she wants to address are ill defined, so it's hard to get past what her actions are. It also makes Walker just look like kind of a prick for being a prick, rather than mistaken and over his head because he's a soldier playing at being a (super)hero.
I do think Zemo is great too though, and suspect he and Walker are the 'true' villains of the plot.
Graphite wrote: I think all the serum is gone, so I can't see Sam getting any.
And I think one of the messages is "things can be very complicated"
I think there's also a clear message in the story that the shield and the serum aren't what made Captain America Captain America.
For all the talk about Sam being a counselor he manages to miss the Undiagnosed PTSD in Walker. C'mon its one of Hollywood's favorite tropes broken soldiers will always lash out violently at some point. They've definitely been way to heavy handed so far.
I also think Voss is largely right wrt the handling of Walker as well as the MOH and I agree with him about the line crossing.
I agree that an extra episode or two to set the scene during the snap and after the return, show them as victims, for at least a while. Right I'm not sympathetic for them at all. They're a cultist terrorist group and the serum takers are destined for the Raft.
As is Walker. The locker room scene at the start wasn't quite enough to bring me in on his side. But then maybe it wasn't meant to, not really. He was always going to be a pretender and it was only a matter of time before he failed.
Jerram wrote: For all the talk about Sam being a counselor he manages to miss the Undiagnosed PTSD in Walker. C'mon its one of Hollywood's favorite tropes broken soldiers will always lash out violently at some point. They've definitely been way to heavy handed so far.
Well to be fair, he hasn't been with Walker in a situation where diagnosing/counseling is on the agenda at all. Its usually a fight, gearing up to a fight, or Walker forcing a weird confrontation at the police station. There isn't room for a authentic or honest evaluation in those situations, and Walker is wrapped up in a lot of emotional baggage for Sam specifically (as the guy who has The Shield), so Sam would be a terrible person to do it.
MarkNorfolk wrote:I agree that an extra episode or two to set the scene during the snap and after the return, show them as victims, for at least a while. Right I'm not sympathetic for them at all. They're a cultist terrorist group and the serum takers are destined for the Raft.
As is Walker. The locker room scene at the start wasn't quite enough to bring me in on his side. But then maybe it wasn't meant to, not really. He was always going to be a pretender and it was only a matter of time before he failed.
I didn't think the locker room scene was meant to put people on his side. It really struck me as highlighting (by taking him back to his high school days) his insecurity in his new role. It was a weird combination of nostalgia (appropriate for a new Cap- looking back on the 'glory days' of Cap while looking back on his football 'glory days'), and how unprepared he is (who came out of high school prepared to deal with the real world?)
As for Karli and the Flagsmashers... eh. They danced on the line at first, where they were set up to look bad (to the audience) through the eyes of Falcon's military contact guy, but then a twist, they're aiding refugees and hiding from an actual bad guy. Its all very noble Robin Hood vibes, hands dirty but not that bad.
Spoiler:
But then all the nuance goes away with the bombing. The GRC seems ineffective, but with good intentions (and a really creepy in-universe advertisement that makes them sound suspicious); so killing them is just stupidly heavy handed and suddenly frames the story as 'no, they're absolutely bad too.' [As an aside, the sidekick's moral moment at the gravestone was really weird. The 'if you're afraid of doing the wrong thing, you're probably right' does NOT apply in this situation. Blatantly so when murder is on the agenda.]
Its a bad sign when Zemo comes across as more sympathetic than the 'rebels with a cause, trying to help people'. But I'm a sucker for villains with reasoned motivations and consistent code that makes sense to them even if its overly ruthless and nasty.
And it turns out he now seems completely right about Karli- she's lashing out because she can now, not because she's morally correct (or actually helping people, especially from now on).
This is the type of material that I would have liked to seen in Avengers 2.5 -- erm, I mean Cap 3 -- instead of a mediocre "Civil War" retelling that gives Tony Stark the main character arc. Just kinda underlines for me how much I wish they'd handled the character differently. I understand that their version worked "for what they needed" -- always the consideration in the MCU -- but it was so thin and missed important aspects of the character. Maybe in the next go-around...
