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I think there are a number of reasons behind the gun thing; one is that it’s Disney, so they’re probably trying to downplay the “guns are cool stuff”, secondly, on a practical level shooting with guns (pun intended) does increase production costs, because you have to have armourers and all sorts of safety precautions, etc. Even if this very high budget TV, it is still TV, so they will be looking to save costs where they can. But I also definitely think they’re going for some character development in here, with all of the Sokovia accords stuff they’ve been through and Thanos’s agenda, I think Sam is seeing that not every problem needs to be solved with a gun; being Captain America isn’t about being the best soldier, it’s about being the best person. It always has been, but I think Sam is just starting to really realise that (and I think it’s going to be a big theme in the series). It also mirrors nicely with Bucky trying to make amends for a lifetime of murder by doing law-abiding(ish) non-violent(ish) good deeds.
Zed wrote: *All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
Red Wing still had a gun and a couple missiles though. Like, minimum crew on those choppers and Sam still killed like a dozen guys on that mission. Some of them with his own hands as he threw them into Cliff walls and left them to plummet to their death.
Azreal13 wrote: Sam is literally just a bloke with some tech though, and not even an actual suit of armour like Dusty. Pretty much everything he does that can be classed as "super" is going to lean on the tech really quite hard.
I agree that Redwing has come to the fore seemingly quite suddenly, but then again when have we seen Sam do any heavy lifting since Civil War, where, if memory serves, he was also using Redwing quite a bit, but for recon rather than combat?
Not so much coming to the fore suddenly, but accomplishing most of the work (rather than chasing after dips in flying squirrel costumes).
Sam not doing heavy lifting was kind of my point. Flying effects and drone vs helicopters aside, this was a pure fisticuffs 'normal guy vs normal guys' exchange. The 'supers' stuff, at least for this episode, is beside the point. Obviously this looks like its gearing up for 'we actually need superheroes' (to both inspire and to fight powered baddies), but at least for the first episode it isn't there yet. Its very much the opposite of Age of Ultron where the Avengers just wreck a bunch of idiots with laser guns.
Jadenim wrote:I think Sam is seeing that not every problem needs to be solved with a gun
I think that's part of the messaging, sure. But had he used a gun, he could have taken out the hijackers on the plane and everyone could have gotten on with their lives. Instead several helicopter loads of people died, as did most if not all the original hijackers. So, its kind of... weird messaging?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/20 21:37:04
Voss wrote: I think that's part of the messaging, sure. But had he used a gun, he could have taken out the hijackers on the plane and everyone could have gotten on with their lives. Instead several helicopter loads of people died, as did most if not all the original hijackers. So, its kind of... weird messaging?
As long as we don't head into the problems the final season of Star Wars Rebels and The Clone Wars had, where main characters often never used their weapons to kill their opponents, but often to disarm or disable them. Lots of heads being bonked together to knock enemies out, of lightsabers being used to cut apart weapons, or send people with jetpacks spiralling off into the distance rather than just killing them with the blade. Sometimes the good guys just straight up used the stun setting on their weapons in firefights. It was a truly bizarre choice.
Tons of people still died mind you, but they were indirect deaths, like shutting down the grav-plates on a platform, so we see a bunch of Stormtroopers fall to their deaths, but as the heroes didn't directly kill them, then that's ok apparently. And lots of faceless mook v faceless mook.
I really like what they have set up so far for Winter/Falcon. Excited to see how all the various pieces of this fit together. Zemo, Flag Smashers, U.S. Agent.
Predictions for the Falcon and the Winter Soldier!
Spoiler:
Bucky is going to be Captain America by the end of this. Falcon is going to spend all show trying to live up to the mantel and will be inspired to be better then he has been throughout the show by Caps example, but ultimately Bucky in looking for how to move forward and find purpose will find purpose with that Mantel.
Super Shiny Cap suit? I doubt it. But maybe!
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
I have no basis behind this, but I have a funny feeling that Zemo will be an antagonist but not the villain. I don't know why, other than it seems a bit too straightforward for the way Marvel have been recently.
Zed wrote: *All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
Jadenim wrote: I have no basis behind this, but I have a funny feeling that Zemo will be an antagonist but not the villain. I don't know why, other than it seems a bit too straightforward for the way Marvel have been recently.
Maybe. But it is just a six episode run. It can't be too convoluted.
And frankly the MCU still needs people to step up and be villains. It too often feels like the 'heroes' are punching down on normals.
This is just wish listing, but I would love to see Zemo move on to a Thunderbolts team with Emil Blonsky (Aka: Abomination) and some other villains being forced into a suicide squad style hero team set up by the government.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
So, who was the person in the Captain America suit in the end? Are we going to get Mandarined and find out he was just some guy?
Automatically Appended Next Post: As to the Gun thing.
Superhero and media for kids has always had a weird relationship with guns. Like Rebels, where Ezra used some slingshot rather than a gun like others. Why many of their toys have lazers or rockets, kids are not going to have easy acess to either of those things, but guns......maybe. and they want a plausible deniability around that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/22 00:24:20
Ultimately I think the idea is, he basically is just 'some guy'. - Or more specifically, a soldier that is 100 percent loyal to the Government of the day, without all that messy stuff like 'personal morals' or 'ethics' to hold him back.
I think it's EXTREMELY unlikely that Bucky will end up with the shield. That would just be... REALLY bad optics for Disney. Like, disastrously bad.
I think we're likely going to be having a more classic 'inherit the mantle' story, with Falcon learning that Cap really DID make the right choice for him, even though he can't see it himself.
With Bucky there to provide the emotional backup and support for it, giving Falcon his own blessing. - Overall, I think it's decently likely that Bucky might even properly die at the end of the series. But like, super heroically , in front of the world in a sort of 'redemption is death' kind of way. - Though that might be me seeing some similar allusions to Arrow's Oliver Queen.
Like, I can imagine a scene at the end of the series where there's statues of Bucky standing alongside Steve in the Smithsonian Exhibit.
Ahhh, I noticed the face and im like "am i supposed to recognize this?" cause it looked familiar.
This series does seem to be building up to some sort or Redemption/Reckoning for Bucky.
My theory is that the Flagsmashers are just a Hydra proxy organization ran by Baron Zemo(He is Hydra in this right?) and that the super soldiers are much of the same ones that where the supposed villians of Civil War.
hotsauceman1 wrote: So, who was the person in the Captain America suit in the end? Are we going to get Mandarined and find out he was just some guy?
Automatically Appended Next Post: As to the Gun thing.
Superhero and media for kids has always had a weird relationship with guns. Like Rebels, where Ezra used some slingshot rather than a gun like others. Why many of their toys have lazers or rockets, kids are not going to have easy acess to either of those things, but guns......maybe. and they want a plausible deniability around that.
That's a hard sell given how casual they've been already (both in the films and in the flashback portion of this first episode), and the other heavy themes in this.
Plus, Disney's got a pile of 'kids version' Marvel stories in the various animated series. (And SW Rebels makes sense in this context as well, given that they also had a child protagonist, which usually tends to change the rules).
Its also weird coming off WandaVision, given the sheer horror-stakes of that show, and the 'witchcraft' controversy-nonsense, which given this logic they would have also shied away from.
Anyway, we'll see. Maybe they're doing some weird good cop bad cop thing. But even the first Cap movie didn't shy away from giving Steve guns and letting him go to town.
This series does seem to be building up to some sort or Redemption/Reckoning for Bucky.
Yeah.... tone to me says 'reckoning.' The way they set it up (and frankly, the factors pushing him, including Steve leaving him with exactly zero connections at the end of Infinity War), it doesn't feel like a redemption set up.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/22 02:08:18
Steves not dead. He's completely out of the public eye. Nobody but the Avengers who were present know that he stayed in the past and came back the long way. The public probably thinks hes dead. Or on the moon. Not 100.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Ahhh, I noticed the face and im like "am i supposed to recognize this?" cause it looked familiar.
This series does seem to be building up to some sort or Redemption/Reckoning for Bucky.
My theory is that the Flagsmashers are just a Hydra proxy organization ran by Baron Zemo(He is Hydra in this right?) and that the super soldiers are much of the same ones that where the supposed villians of Civil War.
No, he’s not Hydra (or wasn’t in Civil War at least); also he was very anti-enhanced in Civil War (he explicitly says he doesn’t want any more people like the Avengers), so I wonder if he’s actually running some dark hero-hunting unit? That would fit with his character as last seen.
Zed wrote: *All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
Not only super soldiers in the Flag Smashers, but a forgotten American super soldier to boot.
Who is making them? Is there more serum? Is that what John Walker is really after? What will Zemo know? Will he help, or is he somehow behind it?
I mean, we know he’s not keen on super soldiers, hence Civil War. But there’s a difference between not liking super soldiers, and not liking super soldiers you can’t control yourself.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
First off, I really like the introduction of Walker, deliberately making him actually a decent seeming guy, but laying the foundations that he is in over his head. It will be interesting to see how that develops.
By my count there are at least four factions in play now; Bucky & Sam, Walker and his buddy (“Battlestar”really?!), the Flag Smashers and whoever “the broker” is. I also like that the Flag Smashers are a somewhat sympathetic cause.
Korean War era super soldiers? Leaning into the “illegal military experiments on black soldiers, ‘cause no-one will notice” angle? Do I sense spin-off material? Also another chance for Hayley Atwell to get some work?
At this point I have no idea who the actual villain is going to be, this is going to be twisty.
Final thought 1; bye bye plot armour / deus ex Red Wing!
Final thought 2; aliens, androids & wizards! Awesome. Also sorcerers are wizards without hats. A) funny and B) very self-aware of the MCU
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also:
Spoiler:
Doctor lady-who’s-name-I-can’t-remember casually mentions that she used to go on missions with Walker? I’m sure that won’t come back in a big way at all. No siree.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/26 10:03:31
Zed wrote: *All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
Oh, wow, the espionage-double-dealing-cold-war-thriller feel of The Winter Soldier is substantially back in this. Very, very murky stuff going on. Most excellent.
Spoiler:
A question that has bothered me for a while is answered - after Cap went into the ice, there was absolutely nobody who could produce more supersoldier formula in the US? Well, turns out there was. And the pouches of it Stark had in his car when the Winter Soldier killed him wasn't the first batch, either. Hydra seems to have been mixed up in this, but the treatment of the Korean War era supersoldiers seems to have been down to good ol' fashion government nastiness.
I doubt Zemo is behind the juiced up Flag Smashers - after all, when he did have a chance to recruit a brainwashed team of supered-up Winter Soldiers, he shot them instead. But that doesn't mean he isn't behind the Power Broker - whoever is chasing the Flag Smashers.
The Flag Smashers are also looking really interesting. A whole group of people, with civilian help, who really do have the Thanos Was Right thing going on - they lived 5 years with the world population halved, and found they preferred it. They're angry, but you can see that there's a sane reason why they're angry. And thus far what have we seen them do? Have they actually killed anyone? Stolen things, yes. Got into fist fights to defend themselves.
And NuCap - is going to screw up. Because he's put himself in opposition to Our Heroes. But I don't think it's going to be through choice, and I don't think he's going to like it.
Graphite wrote:And NuCap - is going to screw up. Because he's put himself in opposition to Our Heroes.
Eh. To go back to the gun thing, I suspect its going to be more simple than that. The intro gave him some backstory, but they're definitely going for guns=baddies now. And everything about the jail visit felt stupidly sinister.
All the nuance in the show is going to the Flag Smashers, ironically enough. Everything else is waving all kinds of warning flags.
----
The ease of super soldiers is kind of weird at this point. Replicating the super soldier serum was supposed to be mostly failures with maybe partial successes (or hideous abominations). And Hydra was in a position to have access to it at various points, so either there's a huge 'forgotten history' of Supers in the MCU, or they're being lazy.
I'm also just a bit puzzled on who Falcon is working for. Can he just... suborn military personnel and flights because... Avengers? And Bucky can just invite himself along on classified missions? Its very strange.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/26 16:40:29
Graphite wrote:And NuCap - is going to screw up. Because he's put himself in opposition to Our Heroes.
Eh. To go back to the gun thing, I suspect its going to be more simple than that. The intro gave him some backstory, but they're definitely going for guns=baddies now. And everything about the jail visit felt stupidly sinister.
All the nuance in the show is going to the Flag Smashers, ironically enough. Everything else is waving all kinds of warning flags.
----
The ease of super soldiers is kind of weird at this point. Replicating the super soldier serum was supposed to be mostly failures with maybe partial successes (or hideous abominations). And Hydra was in a position to have access to it at various points, so either there's a huge 'forgotten history' of Supers in the MCU, or they're being lazy.
I'm also just a bit puzzled on who Falcon is working for. Can he just... suborn military personnel and flights because... Avengers? And Bucky can just invite himself along on classified missions? Its very strange.
Ahhh. But Cap was the first stable super soldier. Absolute no drawbacks, flaws etc.
The guy they paid a visit to? We know he did serious jail time - but not why. His bitterness toward Bucky could be more “you did more murders than I did and got a reprieve” rather than “I did something and got a disproportionate sentence”.
We don’t know that whatever is powering the Flag Smashers is a permanent effect. It could just be super steroids taken before a mission.
Good point on Falcon though!
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: We know he did serious jail time - but not why. His bitterness toward Bucky could be more “you did more murders than I did and got a reprieve” rather than “I did something and got a disproportionate sentence”.
He was likely imprisoned for nothing, as the US Government experimented on him to perfect the super soldier serum.
Marvel's history is full of attempts to recreate what they lost the day Captain America was created. None of them have ever been able to reach the level of stability and perfection that Cap has. They're always cheap knockoffs that don't work well or have massive side effects (I mean, the project that created Hulk and Blonsky was originally another attempt at remaking the Erskine formula).
Chances are that Isaiah was the first successful attempt since Cap, so they sent him into the field in Korea where he did quite well, and then once he got back he became and unwilling lab rat for the next 30 years as the government tried to understand what made serum work for him.
Of course, we didn't just get introduced to Isaiah Bradley. We got to meet Eli Bradley as well. If Marvel wants, that kid has a bright and patriotic future.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/26 18:17:01
If i was to hazard a guess
I think the supersoldiers may come from those special hydra operatives from civil war. Thats why Zemo and Hydra would know about it.
5000pts 
6000pts 
3000pts
