IVIOOSE wrote: I’ll be writing up a battle report from my games from Lvo soon. I had 5 units of seraphim and they were mvp all weekend went 5-1 with only loss to nick who won it all. Ended up getting 10th and highest person with 1 loss.
davidgr33n wrote: The Stormbolter and Inferno Pistol costs 11 points, combimelta is 19 points. I find if I’m close enough to shoot my melta I’m usually close enough to have shot the inferno pistol as well.
I hate you. Now I have to cast more inferno pistols because this is a no brainer. Also, how the hell am I going to model an inferno pistol on the storm bolter model....
davidgr33n wrote: The Stormbolter and Inferno Pistol costs 11 points, combimelta is 19 points. I find if I’m close enough to shoot my melta I’m usually close enough to have shot the inferno pistol as well.
I hate you. Now I have to cast more inferno pistols because this is a no brainer. Also, how the hell am I going to model an inferno pistol on the storm bolter model....
Holster. Or just mount an inferno barrel on the top of the storm bolter.
It's a Gr33n Pattern Storm Bolter with Integral Inferno Gun.
davidgr33n wrote: The Stormbolter and Inferno Pistol costs 11 points, combimelta is 19 points. I find if I’m close enough to shoot my melta I’m usually close enough to have shot the inferno pistol as well.
I hate you. Now I have to cast more inferno pistols because this is a no brainer. Also, how the hell am I going to model an inferno pistol on the storm bolter model....
Holster. Or just mount an inferno barrel on the top of the storm bolter.
It's a Gr33n Pattern Storm Bolter with Integral Inferno Gun.
Haha Pretre I like it.
I’ve been pondering the same question about representing the pistol on my models, that sounds like a great idea.
All the Superiors can do the Stormbolter / Inferno Pistol combo (but not the Seraphim Superior, nor the Canoness oddly enough). Since I use Repressors for all my Girls and run them aggressively anyway, having the Superiors in the frontlines with an Inferno Pistol will work better than paying for a 5 strong unit of Seraphim with the sole purpose of carrying 4 Infernos. Granted the Seraphim can target specific units and get in tight spots where my Repressors won’t, but it comes out much cheaper points wise.
Does anybody use Penitent engines? I've loved the models for years, and recently found out they actually still for sale, and for fairly cheap too! Their stats and point costs seem alright, and I was thinking of bringing a spear head with...I guess at least 3, bot probably 6 penitent engines and a cannoness with some of the fast attack sisters that can take stormbolters in an immolator to add to my other imperial forces for fun.
Why not combi-plasma instead of combi-melta on the Dominion Superiors? It's a few points cheaper, and you've got a rapid fire weapon that can kill infantry more efficiently than the meltagun while still being decent against vehicles.
Against say, Terminators, who have an invul save anyway, super charging the plasma seems like a better option than over killing most of the time, and sometimes only getting one wound. Especially since in a perfect world, you can kill two of them instead of one.
Heafstaag wrote: Does anybody use Penitent engines? I've loved the models for years, and recently found out they actually still for sale, and for fairly cheap too! Their stats and point costs seem alright, and I was thinking of bringing a spear head with...I guess at least 3, bot probably 6 penitent engines and a cannoness with some of the fast attack sisters that can take stormbolters in an immolator to add to my other imperial forces for fun.
Any thoughts on Penitent engines?
I recently got my first and I love the look and the presence of the model in my army. Game play is tough... slow and not super resilient. I think multiples are needed for offense. A single one roaming your backfield can discourage DSers. Mine roasted a whole unit of those fancy new marines as they dropped, got the charge and fought twice. Also hard to shift off an objective if you can shield it from lascannons and such. When one gets into something squishy, look out. So, my limited experience is that they're fun, but not super competitive, at least in small numbers.
Paimon wrote: Why not combi-plasma instead of combi-melta on the Dominion Superiors? It's a few points cheaper, and you've got a rapid fire weapon that can kill infantry more efficiently than the meltagun while still being decent against vehicles.
Against say, Terminators, who have an invul save anyway, super charging the plasma seems like a better option than over killing most of the time, and sometimes only getting one wound. Especially since in a perfect world, you can kill two of them instead of one.
Or better yet, why not a Stormbolter and an Inferno Pistol for 11 pts instead of 15 for the combiplasma? More dakka / and short range melta when you need it...
Heafstaag wrote: Does anybody use Penitent engines? I've loved the models for years, and recently found out they actually still for sale, and for fairly cheap too! Their stats and point costs seem alright, and I was thinking of bringing a spear head with...I guess at least 3, bot probably 6 penitent engines and a cannoness with some of the fast attack sisters that can take stormbolters in an immolator to add to my other imperial forces for fun.
Any thoughts on Penitent engines?
I recently got my first and I love the look and the presence of the model in my army. Game play is tough... slow and not super resilient. I think multiples are needed for offense. A single one roaming your backfield can discourage DSers. Mine roasted a whole unit of those fancy new marines as they dropped, got the charge and fought twice. Also hard to shift off an objective if you can shield it from lascannons and such. When one gets into something squishy, look out. So, my limited experience is that they're fun, but not super competitive, at least in small numbers.
Pretty much this. Theres a reason you can take them in squadron. They need the numbers to survive to combat and even combat itself sometimes.
They lack real mobility. They still miss the old days of 6+d6 movement then advance.
That said, they are still wonderful looking models and look great painted up and on the table. Ive used them as back field defenders and counter charge with satisfactory success.
Paimon wrote: Why not combi-plasma instead of combi-melta on the Dominion Superiors? It's a few points cheaper, and you've got a rapid fire weapon that can kill infantry more efficiently than the meltagun while still being decent against vehicles.
Against say, Terminators, who have an invul save anyway, super charging the plasma seems like a better option than over killing most of the time, and sometimes only getting one wound. Especially since in a perfect world, you can kill two of them instead of one.
Or better yet, why not a Stormbolter and an Inferno Pistol for 11 pts instead of 15 for the combiplasma? More dakka / and short range melta when you need it...
I've taken Combi Plasma before. The extra 4 points gets you another shot and 6" of range, which is not a bad deal.
Going to a 2 day, 5 round, heavily soft-scored (paint and sports) event using the Open War deck (lots of objectives). Decided to be boring and just take out the Battalion:
Spoiler:
Battalion
HQ - Canoness with Evis/BP - 57
HQ - Canoness with Power Sword/BP - 49 (Relic)
HQ - Celestine and 2 G - 250
OB SEC TROOP - 5 BSS with 3 SB - 51
OB SEC TROOP - 5 BSS with 3 SB - 51
DT - Repressor - 110
OB SEC TROOP - 5 BSS with 2 SB - 49
OB SEC TROOP - 5 BSS with 2 SB - 49
DT - Rhino - 75
OB SEC TROOP - 5 BSS with 2 SB - 49
DT - Immo with Immo Flamer - 103
OB SEC TROOP - 5 BSS with 2 SB - 49
DT - Immo with Immo Flamer - 103
ELITE - Imagifer - 40
ELITE - Imagifer - 40
ELITE - Imagifer - 40
HEAVY - 5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
HEAVY - 5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
HEAVY - 5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
FAST - 8 Seraphim with 4 Inferno Pistols, Chainsword/BP - 124
IVIOOSE wrote: I’ll be writing up a battle report from my games from Lvo soon. I had 5 units of seraphim and they were mvp all weekend went 5-1 with only loss to nick who won it all. Ended up getting 10th and highest person with 1 loss.
This would be amazing! I'd love to hear about your list and the battles you played! Great to see sisters doing well
Paimon wrote: Why not combi-plasma instead of combi-melta on the Dominion Superiors? It's a few points cheaper, and you've got a rapid fire weapon that can kill infantry more efficiently than the meltagun while still being decent against vehicles.
Against say, Terminators, who have an invul save anyway, super charging the plasma seems like a better option than over killing most of the time, and sometimes only getting one wound. Especially since in a perfect world, you can kill two of them instead of one.
Or better yet, why not a Stormbolter and an Inferno Pistol for 11 pts instead of 15 for the combiplasma? More dakka / and short range melta when you need it...
I've taken Combi Plasma before. The extra 4 points gets you another shot and 6" of range, which is not a bad deal.
I agree it’s a good deal, I just prefer the Stormbolter option for putting out more shots. If they made a Stormbolter combiweapon I’d put plasma over the Inferno Pistol.
Heafstaag wrote: Does anybody use Penitent engines? I've loved the models for years, and recently found out they actually still for sale, and for fairly cheap too! Their stats and point costs seem alright, and I was thinking of bringing a spear head with...I guess at least 3, bot probably 6 penitent engines and a cannoness with some of the fast attack sisters that can take stormbolters in an immolator to add to my other imperial forces for fun.
Any thoughts on Penitent engines?
I recently got my first and I love the look and the presence of the model in my army. Game play is tough... slow and not super resilient. I think multiples are needed for offense. A single one roaming your backfield can discourage DSers. Mine roasted a whole unit of those fancy new marines as they dropped, got the charge and fought twice. Also hard to shift off an objective if you can shield it from lascannons and such. When one gets into something squishy, look out. So, my limited experience is that they're fun, but not super competitive, at least in small numbers.
Pretty much this. Theres a reason you can take them in squadron. They need the numbers to survive to combat and even combat itself sometimes.
They lack real mobility. They still miss the old days of 6+d6 movement then advance.
That said, they are still wonderful looking models and look great painted up and on the table. Ive used them as back field defenders and counter charge with satisfactory success.
That is why I was thinking of squads of two at least. Maybe a squad of 3, and two single engine units...the single engine units stay back to defend, or are used as a distraction, while the 3 strong unit hopefully makes it into combat.
No worries. Definately go min 2 engines for ahgressive front line looking for trouble squads. Keep them away from things that can strike them first and if they get charged, use your strat to interrupt, they really dont like being hit back.
I had a squad of 2 once take down a repulsor and then a full squad of aggressors which was wine, but the aggressors were in range of a 'i get to fight even though you just killed me' banner, which resulted in the engines going bye bye.
On that note, am I right that if you do the same thing with an AoF, you'd be unable to charge later that turn, because it happens during the turn, just not during the movement phase, right? Or does the penalty for advancing only apply if it happens during movement? And assuming its the former, martyrdom allows us to avoid that because it happens most commonly during an opponent's phase?
MacPhail wrote: On that note, am I right that if you do the same thing with an AoF, you'd be unable to charge later that turn, because it happens during the turn, just not during the movement phase, right? Or does the penalty for advancing only apply if it happens during movement? And assuming its the former, martyrdom allows us to avoid that because it happens most commonly during an opponent's phase?
Hmm.. I was under the impression you couldn't shoot or charge if you vanguard, but now i'm leaning toward you can. It says before the first takes their turn. Neat. It's been moot so far in my games except for a couple.
"A unit that Advances can’t shoot or charge later that turn."
"Vanguard: Once both sides are deployed but before the first player takes their turn,..."
In my head they were the same thing for some reason. All this wedding nonsense is taking up too much space in my brain. After tomorrow I can get back to focusing on what's really important in life.
Yep, I'm pretty sure I understood it right, but I'm also sure I've played it wrong at times. I'm definitely going to look at Martyrdom as a way to exploit that.
On a different note, I'm going to push the limits of our tactics thread because yours are the opinions I most want on this question...
Given that Inferno Seraphim are TACTICALLY advantageous, I'm going to order a bunch of these and start converting, unless someone knows of a better option. Is this "fusion pistol" my best bet for Seraphim? What else is out there?
MacPhail wrote: Yep, I'm pretty sure I understood it right, but I'm also sure I've played it wrong at times. I'm definitely going to look at Martyrdom as a way to exploit that.
On a different note, I'm going to push the limits of our tactics thread because yours are the opinions I most want on this question...
Given that Inferno Seraphim are TACTICALLY advantageous, I'm going to order a bunch of these and start converting, unless someone knows of a better option. Is this "fusion pistol" my best bet for Seraphim? What else is out there?
Those look great! Has anyone used them or shapeways in general?
@pretre: Nice work on those Geminae... makes me crave plastic sisters to mess with even more! I'm down to my last Canoness Inferno pistol, and that's why I'm on the quest. I thought about trying to cast it, but I don't have the time or the skill. Looked at GW bits resellers, but availability seems like an issue. 3rd party is where it's at, just gotta find the right piece.
I am working a Supreme Command detachment of Shield Captains on Bikes into my list currently.
This is what I came up with:
Supreme Command detachment:
3 x Shield Captains on Jetbikes
Bataillon detachment:
Celestine
Canoness
4 x 5 BSS (2 Stormbolters each)
2 x Repressor to carry them around
5 Seraphims (2 inferno pistols)
Outrider detachment:
Canoness
3 x 5 Dominions (4 meltaguns each)
3 Immolators to carry them around
I think the list has decent anti tank, decent anti-horde and a nasty assault element to support the dominions moving forward while still sporting some ObSec units.
Flip your four BSS squads for four Dom squads, gives you two squads with four meltaguns, two squads with four stormbolters. Put one of each in your two Repressors.
Gives you three BSS in Immolators with five girls each and four meltaguns between them.
You lose a few points to get extra Dominions, invest in a HB Retributor squad and put the remaining points into weapon upgrades for your vehicles.
So I know I don't run the most optimal list, but I just recently tabled a Custodes player with my Sororitas brigade. I brought 94 models (49 Battle Sister Squads, 10 Seraphim, 10 Dominions, 15 Retributors, Celestine & both Gemini, 2 Canonesses, 2 Imagifiers, 1 Hospitaller, and 2 Immolators).
It was a fun game - I think my number of Meltaguns alone outnumbered his entire army. (2 five-girl dominion squads with 4 melta & combi melta is 10, 2 multimeltas each Immolator for 14, melta+multimelta+combimelta on a 5-girl BSS for 17, and 4 Inferno Pistols on the seraphim for 21. He had 19 models).
So my Retributor squad with heavy flamers proved to be invaluable. I know people don't like them but I used them as a back-line countercharge unit advancing slowly behind my BSS wall, and they did a lot of work, especially with the heavy bolter girls. Celestine was not my warlord, instead being used with her Seraphim escort to hold up the enemy's MLE, which made him decide whether to halt his advance boardwide (because of his small model count) or come at me piecemeal. He ended up charging ahead with his bikes, and I think it would have been better to hold them back. His Land Raider (he was testing it; he knows it's suboptimal) got nuked, and his bikes also died; I think I killed 3 of the 4 in a turn. Celestine was an effective roadblock, holding up the walking part of his army while I eliminated the bikes and Biker-Captain super-warlord, who essentially got eviscerator'd and Blade of Admonition'd to death by my canonesses. Sweet times were had when he killed the Blade of Admonition canoness and I martyrdom'd the other Canoness to finish him off with her eviscerator.
I went 3-0 over the weekend in a 1500 point 20 man tourney. I ended up taking 3rd because the way the TO was scoring was total differential in a score as opposed to win/loss. My brother who went 1-2 actually got second because his 1 win was like 39-1, and my 3 wins totaled 36. It was a weird way of scoring and I think I was the only 3-0. Anyway...
It was a fun tourney and I ended up trouncing Deathguard, Nids, and then Nurgle. I didn't get to face any of the Custodes guys. I was disappointed by that because I think Sisters are an extra hard counter and I really wanted to tarnish some of that gold.
Also, those Chapter Approved missions are kinda fun. They do keep it a bit interesting.
I have to point out that I ran a Dialogus to fill out a detachment, and it was hilarious. I killed a Trygon because I assaulted it with her and she, shockingly, died, allowing a squad of doms hanging out next to it to fire at the end of the phase. The Dialogus also did 1 wound to the Trygon, btw. MVP material right there. The other two games she sat on points midfield and scored VPs since she was untargetable. I can in no way say she was a waste of 15 points.
This past Saturday I attended the Good, Bad, and Ugly (GBU) Tournament in Wisconsin. The GBU is generally a once a year one day event that draws 40-60 people. The idea is that you are split by your faction (Good = Imps, Bad = Chaos + Nids, and UGLY = everyone else) and compete to see who is the best faction.
This year they drew 40 people. There were about 16-17 good, 16-17 bad, and 6-7 ugly players.
1x Heavy Support Squad, 3x Mortars
1x Heavy Support Squad, 3x Mortars
Supreme Command:
1x Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike
1x Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike
1x Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike
1x Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike
1x Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike
Game One:
Chaos.
His list was a gurgle/Alpha legion heavy infiltrate list. He had a few daemon princes, a lot of Beserkers and cultists. We all know the arch type.
I deploy most of my seraphim out of first turn charge range and throw the guard up front. The shield captains and Celestine also hang out near the back.
He wins the roll to go first, I don't bother trying to seize. Turn 1 he kills off all my guard and a unit of Seraphim while everything else just advances up. In response I kill 40 cultists, 2 Daemon Princes and all the Beserkers. I do however lose a Shield Captain. From here on out I'm just picking up most of my opponents units. I win 29-1. The max is 30.
Game Two:
Eldar.
His list was mostly serpents equipped to deal with tanks/monsters. Some fire prisms, a handful of rangers, one of the flyers and some characters. I deploy similar to how I did the last game and win the roll to go first. I opt to go second as it was maelstrom scored at the end of the battle round.
His first turn he kills my guard and a scattering of Seraphim. My first turn I take out 2 Serpents and a bunch of random elements. I wind up tabling him by turn 3.
30-2 for a max win.
Game 3.
Eldar.
Going into game three I find myself near the lead as well as the highest scoring "good" player. I think there are 7-8 players at this point with perfect scores (60 points) to my 59.
My opponents list was similar to my last opponents expect he had a big unit of shinning spears. The mission was end of Battle Round progressive.
I win the role to go first and opt to go second.
Turn one my opponent had one of the worst shooting phases I think I've seen in this edition. Despite all his fire power he only killed unit of mortars and 5-6 guardsmen. My turn one I get him off all the objectives and score three points (there were only 3 objectives).
His turn two is better but its not enough. My turn two I kill off the spears.
I win 30-0.
I finished the event with 89 out of 90 battles to finish 2nd or 3rd in battle. I did however win best overall, which I was not expecting at all.
Thoughts on the list:
Wow mass Seraphim are good. I was all about repressors up until now. However between the points hike in Chapter Approved for Repressors, the points decrease for Inferno Pistols, and the fact that I would much rather go second in most mission formats makes repressors feel outdated. Seraphim are capable of going almost wherever they want and if a unit dies it's not a huge loss.
Shield Captains - These guys are no joke. I was unsure about 5 of them but I'm really happy with my decision. They are really tough to deal with and even when you can shoot them they take a tremendous amount of fire power to bring down. I think I lost a total of 4 the entire event.
Final thoughts:
Its really strange to play a game where Celestine isn't my biggest CC threat.
Yeah i just order 10 more and looking for 10 more on top of the 10 i already have. So I could have 30.
I have 12 Custodes bikes and after a couple games, it seems that 3-4 Shield Captain on bikes is the way to go, i was going to do 1k Bikes, 30 Seraphim, Celestine and some foot Doms. But now i'm thinking of just doing 5 Shield Captains.
5 captains are great but probably overkill. The only reason I don't drop one is because everything I want (Culuxes/Greyfax) breaks up a pure detachment and I'm not really willing to do that. Too many buffs in playing pure.
Forgive me if I'm much mistaken, but isn't the minimum size of a unit of Conscripts 20?
It is!
Crap! Good catch. Thanks! I'll change it.
I don't think it really mattered but I'll talk to the TOs about it and offer to mail the trophy to second place.
If you went fully kitted with the Shield Captains you could have still put in 20 conscripts for 2001 pts, you kinda cheated yourself out of 4 conscripts.
Forgive me if I'm much mistaken, but isn't the minimum size of a unit of Conscripts 20?
It is!
Crap! Good catch. Thanks! I'll change it.
I don't think it really mattered but I'll talk to the TOs about it and offer to mail the trophy to second place.
If you went fully kitted with the Shield Captains you could have still put in 20 conscripts for 2001 pts, you kinda cheated yourself out of 4 conscripts.
I'm not quite sure what your talking about but I sent you a pm about it.
Maybe it’s just coincidence, but has anyone else noticed this:
Thousand Sons alphabetically is (was) the last Faction still to get a Codex, preceded by Tau (next Codex), if Space Wolves are next then Adepta Sororitas may be waiting a while. Ergo a big finish with new Codex and plastic Sisters, then 9th Edition a month later.
I don’t know if this has been discussed in the thread before, but I just noticed that the Canoness can exchange her bolt pistol for a bolter and then exchange her chainsword for a ranged weapon (like a combiplasma). The core rules state she can shoot both weapons (even at different targets) so she could shoot the plasma part of her combi-weapon without penalty and shoot the bolter without penalty.
Or you could put a bolter AND a Stormbolter on her pumping out 6 shots at BS2 for 2 pts.
Don’t know if anyone would ever outfit her like that, but it is an option.
davidgr33n wrote: Maybe it’s just coincidence, but has anyone else noticed this:
Thousand Sons alphabetically is (was) the last Faction still to get a Codex, preceded by Tau (next Codex), if Space Wolves are next then Adepta Sororitas may be waiting a while. Ergo a big finish with new Codex and plastic Sisters, then 9th Edition a month later.
davidgr33n wrote: I don’t know if this has been discussed in the thread before, but I just noticed that the Canoness can exchange her bolt pistol for a bolter and then exchange her chainsword for a ranged weapon (like a combiplasma). The core rules state she can shoot both weapons (even at different targets) so she could shoot the plasma part of her combi-weapon without penalty and shoot the bolter without penalty.
Or you could put a bolter AND a Stormbolter on her pumping out 6 shots at BS2 for 2 pts.
Don’t know if anyone would ever outfit her like that, but it is an option.
She could fire the Storm Bolter at BS2+, the Bolter at BS3+, AND the plasma at BS3+. 8 Shots at 12".
I forgot the plasma was rapid fire too. That's a lot of shots. Put 6 of them in a Repressor and they can all fire. That's a box of metal driving around with 36 bolter shots and 12 plasma shots coming out of it for just over 400 pts.
But is that point efficient in anyway? A Canoness for HQ tax, is fine to do that. I have 2 Canoness as Pure SoB and mine is Bolter+Combi but thats 60pts
Taking any other Canoness for 60pts is basically saying she is as good as a Dominion squad with all SB's. Given character rule she most likely will survive longer. But if in a vehicle they are the same for targeting.
Which leads me to another point. If you have 6 Canoness in a repressor, if it is shot and removed. ou now have a 1/6 chance to remove a 60pt model. So you need extra bodies. Dialogus (more likely 2) will be needed. This will allow you to activate an AOF at least and they are cheap. But thats another 30pts you need for that squad. That squad now is 500pts! That is a 1/4 your army in 1 vehicle.
The best part of this (and only part why i would think about doing it) is once the vehicle dies (or you get out) you have 5 characters running around shooting now.
For me this sounds ridiculously overpriced (overcost?, I know they are different meanings and i always get them mixed up, freaking english lol).
I just placed an Order for 6 boxes (or 3 Boxes of 10) 30 SoS models for my 6 units of HB's Rets. For me 6 units with 4HBs and a SB each for 522pts is much more effective to me for my points.
Its a really cool, fun, neat idea, NOT SAYING its bad. From my POV i dont like it
I would LOVE to see some Batreps with that 500pt unit too.
Edit: Typos (most likely more, dont nazi me please)
It's by no means overpowered. It's probably balanced points wise. It just seems like a crazy fun thing to do a couple times. I'd also only stick 5 of them in a Repressors with some Doms so if I did roll a 1 i'd kill off a couple doms. It's more point efficient to just walk them up the center of the table since they can't be targeted.
davidgr33n wrote: I don’t know if this has been discussed in the thread before, but I just noticed that the Canoness can exchange her bolt pistol for a bolter and then exchange her chainsword for a ranged weapon (like a combiplasma). The core rules state she can shoot both weapons (even at different targets) so she could shoot the plasma part of her combi-weapon without penalty and shoot the bolter without penalty.
Or you could put a bolter AND a Stormbolter on her pumping out 6 shots at BS2 for 2 pts.
Don’t know if anyone would ever outfit her like that, but it is an option.
She could fire the Storm Bolter at BS2+, the Bolter at BS3+, AND the plasma at BS3+. 8 Shots at 12". I forgot the plasma was rapid fire too. That's a lot of shots.
Last night used a Sisters Battalion and a Imperial Battalion to give a friend a test game for a forthcoming tournament (he was pure Guard)
So Had
St C and Twins
Canoness with Inferno Pistol and relic sword
Mistress
1 Squad of 8 repentia with Rhino
3 squads of Sisters with 2 Storm B each - Immolators (2 with TLMM, 1 with Flamer)
2 Dominons with 4 SB each (1 with TLMM and 1 with Flamer)
10 Seraphim with 4 Hand flamers
Tempestus Prime x2
Caladius Assassin
Vindicare Assassin
3 Squads of 5 scions with 2 Plasma each
1 Leman Russ
I was not expecting his Baneblade or low numbers of infantry but got stuck in and we had a really good game- he won on VPs as I was less focussed on objectives than I should be and missed two first turn charges with St C and the Caladius
We ran out of time (T3) but at the end he was down to one damaged Russ, an empty manitcore and one with one missile - both damaged, 2 half squads of basic infantry and a pair of Company commanders
I still had St C on full health with 1 Twin, Canones, Mistress, 3 immolators and 2 complete squads of Sisters plus the Vindicare.
Out of curiosity, does anyone have any tactics for dealing with Death Guard? In particular, with Mortarion, Bloat Drones, and Typhus-buffed Poxwalker blobs?
Off the top of my head, all I can think of in retrospect is:
-Arco Flagellants and Immolation flamers to deal with Poxwalkers
-Seraphim/Dominions Celestine to deal with Bloat Drones
-???? to deal with Mortarion (once he gets his buffs up, it seems simply shooting him isn't enough)
Just wanted to quickly report a decisive win vs. Thousand Sons... we botched the mission rules and had a bit of a time figuring it out (a new one out of CA). We thought for a moment my opponent had won it on VPs, but we were calculating everything wrong.
It didn't end up mattering as I had him down to his last 4 Rubric Marines at the bottom of turn 3 with most of my army still on the table. I lost a squad of Scions, my Canoness, and a handful of assorted infantry. He lost terminators, rubrics, Tzangors, sorcerors... all of it. He sank everything into trying to de-mech my Dominions even as he delivered his termies into melta range. Special weapon spam vs. a low model count army turned out pretty one sided. He did peril twice, which helped a lot.
The only big thing to report is that both CA strategems delivered. When the Canoness went down under a pile of Tzangors, Martyrdom sprung Celestine from melee to go get his Warlord the following turn. Purity of Faith saved the Canoness from an early death due to mortal wounds in the psychic phase.
Everything else was as expected... Scions are a good glass cannon, melta spam is a good solution for heavy infantry, jump packs +AoFs amounts to picking your fights. Pretty solid list, a 1k version of the Sisters & Scions list in my sig. Thanks again for all the feedback on listbuilding.
Sorry if this discussion has taken place - if it has and someone can direct me to which page I'll go there first, but 73 pages is a lot to look through!
Do Imagifiers have a place in a mechanized list? If so, how do you play that? I'm in the first stages of working on a list that is, at its core, Sisters with a Catachan Spearhead (Basilisks).
Rough draft of the list so far for reference:
Spoiler:
Sisters Battalion:
Celestine and her girls
Cannoness, Storm Bolter and Relic sword
3x Battle Sisters w/ 1 Heavy Flamer, all in Immolators
Sisters Outrider:
Cannoness, Storm Bolter and Chainsword
Dominions, 4x Melta, in Repressors
Astra Militarum Spearhead:
Company Commander
3x Basilisks
This core is about 1895 points, give or take with some Storm Bolter upgrades on vehicles.
I've got some points to play with, and i'm having trouble figuring out if Imagifiers fit into this, or if I should give Celestine some Seraphim to run with, or just some Scions dropping in.
Chippen wrote: Sorry if this discussion has taken place - if it has and someone can direct me to which page I'll go there first, but 73 pages is a lot to look through!
Do Imagifiers have a place in a mechanized list? If so, how do you play that? I'm in the first stages of working on a list that is, at its core, Sisters with a Catachan Spearhead (Basilisks).
Rough draft of the list so far for reference:
Spoiler:
Sisters Battalion:
Celestine and her girls
Cannoness, Storm Bolter and Relic sword
3x Battle Sisters w/ 1 Heavy Flamer, all in Immolators
Sisters Outrider:
Cannoness, Storm Bolter and Chainsword
Dominions, 4x Melta, in Repressors
Astra Militarum Spearhead:
Company Commander
3x Basilisks
This core is about 1895 points, give or take with some Storm Bolter upgrades on vehicles.
I've got some points to play with, and i'm having trouble figuring out if Imagifiers fit into this, or if I should give Celestine some Seraphim to run with, or just some Scions dropping in.
Just checking - is the Canoness in a Repressor as the Dominons loose Scout if so. or is she guarding the Artillery?
Storm Bolters are very good at 2pts each - Melta I am not as convinced as was in previous editions.
I didn't bother with Imagifiers last game and made no difference.
Matyrdom Start is very handy.
I only use Imagifers with Retributors. I view them as wargear for a HB squad. I've also been tracking my last few games and I am coming out ahead on the 4+ rolls. I'd still take 2 rets and 2 imagifers over 3 rets.
deviantduck wrote: I only use Imagifers with Retributors. I view them as wargear for a HB squad. I've also been tracking my last few games and I am coming out ahead on the 4+ rolls. I'd still take 2 rets and 2 imagifers over 3 rets.
I run 2 combos exactly like this. I'm messing with a third Imagifier whose job is to fling a second unit of Seraphim forward with Celestine (the army's 2+ does the first) and then advance with a Canoness (and her aura buff) to quickly join either a storm bolter blob in cover or whatever Dominions survived the first turn.
To answer Chippen, they don't work as well mech'd up, better in a footslogging blob or backfield castle. An Immolator full of heavy flamers might be worthwhile once they disembark.
Do you think I've gone overboard with anti tank on this list?
I think your fine. AT is also good for dealing with monsters and the like.
Do you really need the top detachment to be a batallion? Break it into 2 outriders for 1 CP each and swap the troops for dominions, then all your immolators and repressors can vanguard move. Even if you leave the new dominions as bolter, bolter, flamer, meltagun, superior, i think 3 more scouting squads is better than 1 CP.
Do you think I've gone overboard with anti tank on this list?
I think your fine. AT is also good for dealing with monsters and the like.
Do you really need the top detachment to be a batallion? Break it into 2 outriders for 1 CP each and swap the troops for dominions, then all your immolators and repressors can vanguard move. Even if you leave the new dominions as bolter, bolter, flamer, meltagun, superior, i think 3 more scouting squads is better than 1 CP.
This new list gives me 88 points to play with, which I can use to possibly add to the special weapons in one of the Outrider detachment, and/or throw in some more AM heavy weapon squads or maybe even some Scions.
Also, do you think AM lascannons are a viable substitute for Exorcists? I ask because I find that Exos really are hit or miss in terms of their randomness, and they aren't nearly the tank or monster killers that they used to be.
Yup. You lose 1 CP, but now you have 6 vehicles starting in the enemy's face.
I replaced my Exorcists with Xiphons. I haven't ran them post CA after their points drop, but most agree they're feast or famine. Usually more of the former. They're still my favorite SoB model, though, and I have 5 waiting for their day to be glorious.
Hey everyone
I'm just starting to get back into 40k after... I guess about 7 years. I played mainly in the days of 4th and 5th edition with primarily Sisters, Tau, GK and White Scars, I sort of got out of the game because of how dominant Death Star units got. I sold my armies a while back to pay for my honeymoon so I'm starting again from scratch. I've been stalking this thread for a bit to try to figure out exactly what has changed with Sisters, mainly to figure out what models I need as I'm building up to playing games again.
So I have a few questions:
First is this summary correct?
The Good Stuff = Seraphim w/ infernos, Celestiine w/ twins, Dominions, Rets w/ HBs, Repressors, Immolators
The Meh Stuff= Canoness, BSS, Imagifiers, Exorcists, Penitents
The Bad Stuff= Rhinos, Celestians, Repentia
Also, Stormbolters don't suck anymore.
Second, I'm also thinking about adding some Assassins (not Vindicare), Sisters of Silence, and/or Greyfax into the army later, are they decent for pairing with Sisters these days?
Third, Fortifications seem sort of garbage this edition, are any of them worth taking?
Like I said, I'm not close to fielding an army yet, just working on getting my bearings as things are a bit different than they were in 5th edition. Thanks in advance.
fortifications can definitely be good. I know the T'au Tidewall Gunrigs are good. I like the Landing Pad just because it kind of gives a gunboat like the Valkrie or other birds that can hover quite the survivability boost.
Creeping Dementia wrote: Hey everyone
I'm just starting to get back into 40k after... I guess about 7 years. I played mainly in the days of 4th and 5th edition with primarily Sisters, Tau, GK and White Scars, I sort of got out of the game because of how dominant Death Star units got. I sold my armies a while back to pay for my honeymoon so I'm starting again from scratch. I've been stalking this thread for a bit to try to figure out exactly what has changed with Sisters, mainly to figure out what models I need as I'm building up to playing games again.
So I have a few questions:
First is this summary correct?
The Good Stuff = Seraphim w/ infernos, Celestiine w/ twins, Dominions, Rets w/ HBs, Repressors, Immolators
The Meh Stuff= Canoness, BSS, Imagifiers, Exorcists, Penitents
The Bad Stuff= Rhinos, Celestians, Repentia
Also, Stormbolters don't suck anymore.
Second, I'm also thinking about adding some Assassins (not Vindicare), Sisters of Silence, and/or Greyfax into the army later, are they decent for pairing with Sisters these days?
Third, Fortifications seem sort of garbage this edition, are any of them worth taking?
Like I said, I'm not close to fielding an army yet, just working on getting my bearings as things are a bit different than they were in 5th edition. Thanks in advance.
Tried the bastion a few times and Unlike 7th where mine died first time every game I played it seems much more resiiant - with people justv noth bothering to shoot it - served as a nice base for a Retributor Squad and even fro Some Flash Gits in another game
Imperial Fists can be an issue (or the equivalent in other armies)
Retributor Squad [5 PL, 100pts] . Retributor Superior: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Combi-plasma
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
Retributor Squad [5 PL, 100pts] . Retributor Superior: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Combi-plasma
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
Retributor Squad [5 PL, 100pts] . Retributor Superior: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Combi-plasma
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
I'm putting together a list that I want to be hard hitting on T1 and a good attack force to follow up on T2. I've gotten some feedback on this list and the retributor squads and cannoness on the back line are a waste and I'd be better off with 1 more squad of dominions and 1 more Repressor. That's something to consider as I don't need the HQ and I could fill the Heavy Slots with 3 HWT Mortar squads.
The plan would be to use 2 AoF to push the Seraphim squads across the map to take key targets out the repressors push up and kill off the Transports and armor.
Infantry all get move, move, move while Celestine, Creed, Kell, the Priest and the Repentia Squad try and keep up.
I've just gotten alot of these pieces and am still learning to play with Sisters so please be critical of this list.
So... I've been testing a few ideas, i bought 6 boxes of SOS to convert into Retributors all with 4 HB's
I have Custodes bikes as a forward threat, along with Celestine and like 20 Seraphim.
And i must say... its been really good, my main opponent i played against (re-matches) has been BA, some other are SMs, IG, etc... I mention the BA player b.c he is playing a very strong Comp list.
My list is normally just 3 Detachments, Shield Cap-bikes, 3x3 bikes Canoness with Lots of Rets Canoness+relic, Celestine, lots of Seraphim, 2 5man Doms with SB's (no vehicles, just for scout and more bodies). x2 Imagifiers with 1 Dialg (I had points left over and for 15pts i can place him in an open area in back field to stop DSing, so it works out).
Having 7-8 units shooting per turn of HB's (Via AoF's normally 1-2) with re-roll 1's in cover and the mass seraphim/bikes matching in front has worked out really well and i've been very happy.
I'm back to the idea of using Sisters and Blood Angels (Death Company specifically).
7 Command Points, Death Company using 3-5 on the first turn like they tend to... Acts of Faith basically mean that the Sisters don't need Command points.
Thoughts?
Ok so I need some help. I can' figure out a list for Adepticon.
My current list has been tabled more times than it's won. I don't like that at all. Heres my basically current list:
Celestine + 2bffs
5x Squads of 7 Seraphim with 4 inferno pistols
1x Squads of 7 Seraphim with 4 inferno pistols
4x Shield Captains on Bike
1x BA Jump Captain w/th/ss 1x Mephiston
15x scouts
I'm thinking the problem is the Seraphim squad numbers are too low, they should 9-10 women and that shield captains are too over coasted. They kill daemon princes and mobs really really but anything else they really struggle with.
Heres where I'm at so far:
Celestine + 2bffs
6x Squads of 9 Seraphim with 4 inferno pistols
3x Jump Captains with TH/SS
Other than I have no idea. Either it's good vs big targets and bad vs mobs or visa versa.
deviantduck wrote: How have you guys been playing the Celestine Aura + Seraphim save? Have you been rolling it as a 5++, 5++, or as a 6++, 5++?
Why would it be the second?
Seraphim have a 6++. Celestine gives them +1, bringing it to 5++. So they have a 5++.
6++ 5++. You have to reroll saves and modifiers happen after rerolls. So even though a 5++ passes, it's not till the reroll. It's subtle and really annoying.
deviantduck wrote: How have you guys been playing the Celestine Aura + Seraphim save? Have you been rolling it as a 5++, 5++, or as a 6++, 5++?
Why would it be the second?
Seraphim have a 6++. Celestine gives them +1, bringing it to 5++. So they have a 5++.
I am pretty sure he is referring to the re-rolls happening before modifiers happening rule from the main rulebook.
In other words either you take 6++ and then re-roll to a 5++ or you take a 5++ right away, but cannot re-roll.
I believe this was debated in the past and the conclusion was that Celestine does not give an actual modifier, but changes the invulnerable save. So you would take a 5++ with a re-roll into another 5++
So you do play it as a 6++, 5++? I've been doing it as a 5++,5++. But, I'm on the fence. GWs inconsistent phrasing makes it ambiguous.
I also should have elaborated.
If you play it as a +1 modifier:
6 needed. Roll a 5.
Can't add modifier because of modifier/reroll rules.
Second roll. Rolled a 5.
No more reolls. 5 gets +1 added.
6 achieved. Wound saved.
If you play it as a stat modifier and not a +1 to the roll.
5 needed. Roll a 5 on first dice. Wound saved.
(can also roll 2 dice at once as long as a 5+ is rolled)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Amishprn86 wrote: I have been playing it as a modifier because it says to add 1, it doesnt say "Treat is as being 1 better"
But...
All friendly ADEPTA SORORITAS units within 6" of Celestine add 1 to their Shield of Faith invulnerable saves.
It doesn't say add 1 to the roll. So how do we know if we're add 1 to the stat line or to the roll?
Guys, this is ridiculous. For positive modifiers it literally doesn't matter. You choose whether or not to reroll.
If you roll a bunch of 5's and 6's then decide not to reroll the 5s and only reroll the 1-4's.
This only comes up as a problem with negative modifiers, because even though you know that 3 will miss after modifiers you can only choose to reroll misses - and it isn't a miss yet.
Edit: So to make it quite clear, it's 5++, 5++ no matter what the phrasing or grammar games come into play, don't worry about it.
I still think it is a modifier for sure, but it seems that its not intended to be played like how to hit re-rolls areand played more so like cover save modifiers.
Wow, I hadn't observed this little nuance. I've been treating it as two chances to get a 5 or better. AS units without a rerollable save (e.g. not Seraphim) get the aura benefit on their initial attempt at a save, so I've applied it the same way to Seraphim. What's the wording on the BRB rule in question?
Lanlaorn wrote: Guys, this is ridiculous. For positive modifiers it literally doesn't matter. You choose whether or not to reroll.
If you roll a bunch of 5's and 6's then decide not to reroll the 5s and only reroll the 1-4's.
This only comes up as a problem with negative modifiers, because even though you know that 3 will miss after modifiers you can only choose to reroll misses - and it isn't a miss yet.
Edit: So to make it quite clear, it's 5++, 5++ no matter what the phrasing or grammar games come into play, don't worry about it.
Except their rule doesn't give you the option.
Angelic Visage: Re-roll failed Shield of Faith invulnerable saves for this unit.
it doesn't say you 'may' reroll failed. It says you have to. And as you stated above, it's failed before it receives the modifier, just like something hasn't missed because it hasn't received the negative modifier.
I'm sure we're doing it correctly as a 5++,5++, but there is room for discussion, which is why I wondered how you guys play it.
pretre wrote: It's 5++ x2. If you really want to hash it out, I think YMDC may be a better spot.
It was in YMDC and there were 4 posts by non-sisters players that decided it was 6/5 which is why I was asking actual sisters players how they play it in game. Real life implementation is better than rules theory. I do play it as 5/5 and no one has ever batted an eye. But then again most people I play have no idea about sisters, especially at tournaments.
It probably depends on if you're playing against "That Guy" or not.
Most reasonable people will play 5++/5++.
"That Guy" will say it is 6++/5++, and he has a very valid argument.
Most people don't care about getting into rules bickering, though, and the case for 5++/5++ is strong enough, and within the spirit, that I think most reasonable players wouldn't argue.
For tournament play, though, definitely find out from the TO or Rules Adjudicator or something ahead of time to find out how HE feels like interpreting it that day... and just play it that way for the time being.
And this is why I didn't want it here. Someone having a different interpretation of the rules does not make him 'that guy'. Can we just leave the rules discussion to YMDC?
Amishprn86 wrote: He didnt ask for a YMDC tho, he asked how many are playing it which way. Ive been playing it 6++/5++
Us stating why isnt rules debating, its just giving a reason. My reason is i believe it to be a modifier.
Right, but now someone is attributing malice to an interpretation of the rules and we're arguing about silly bs. I was just saying I prefer to keep that kind of stuff out of this thread. And this shows why.
Those look great, y'all. How mainstream is the "display board" in the convention/tournament scene? Is it a critical part of the score outside of the actual battle points? Do people show up without them, or is it more a matter of who goes big and who doesn't?
From what I gathered with Adepticon there's the Warmaster title from winning the tournament, but you can get best overall awards when you combine the hobby aspect of it.
deviantduck wrote: From what I gathered with Adepticon there's the Warmaster title from winning the tournament, but you can get best overall awards when you combine the hobby aspect of it.
Very cool. I've never done anything beyond a local tournament, but now I'm motivated to build a display board for the fun of it. Somewhere down the list... maybe after building an actual board to play games on.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here's a question... I know some people on this thread run mostly or exclusively infantry despite the dominance of Repressors and Dominions. Is part of the advantage that you can deny the utility of your opponent's anti-tank? It would be hard for a 170-point lascannon Dev squad to earn their points back if the juiciest thing they could target was a 10-point Dominion on foot. Is that a core principle of a footslogging list, a nice little perk on the side, or just something I've imagined?
Here's the all-foot list I'm tinkering with for context... no transports, no walkers, relatively few multi-wound models, just lots of Stormbolters, HB Rets, and Inferno Seraphim.
What factors go into making Retributors with Heavy Bolters most effective? I'm in the theory stages of a Silver Sisters list (GK + Sisters) and I like the idea of the Heavy Bolter Retributors. My only concern is that the Retributors are going to end up exposed and easily killed. I've got about 200 points to play with to support them, so any advice on what I need to make this idea successful is appreciated.
Heavy Support 3x Retributors Squad - 4x Heavy Bolter, Superior w/ Storm Bolter - 87 pts each
Dedicated Transport 3x Immolators with Storm Bolter upgrade - 105 pts
GK Supreme Command
HQ 3x GMNDK - all with Gatling Psilencers, teleporters, and Greathammers.
- One of these is Warlord with First to the Fray (reroll charges for Grey Knights units)
Basically the way this will work is Queen C and the GKs get in opponent's face, letting the Battle Sisters play objectives in the Immolators. Retributors get rid of bubble wrap if necessary, otherwise just shoot stuff.
Chippen wrote: What factors go into making Retributors with Heavy Bolters most effective? I'm in the theory stages of a Silver Sisters list (GK + Sisters) and I like the idea of the Heavy Bolter Retributors. My only concern is that the Retributors are going to end up exposed and easily killed. I've got about 200 points to play with to support them, so any advice on what I need to make this idea successful is appreciated.
HB Rets work because:
1) They are cheap
2) They are efficient when paired with a canoness/imagifers
3) They are an easy place to dump excess faith
4) If you're opponent is shooting at them, you've already lost because all your more aggressive threats are dead.
In my experience, a backfield castle with Canoness, 1-2 squads of HB Rets, and 1-2 Imagifiers (you'll get mixed opinions here) are a solid option. S5 shooting with good range and high volume can strip bubble wrap as you say, clear objectives, finish off vehicles, and dish out wounds against most of the 40k infantry universe. I try to run 6 per squad for ablative wounds if I can, and screen them with 45 point stock BSS squads.
Chippen wrote: What factors go into making Retributors with Heavy Bolters most effective? I'm in the theory stages of a Silver Sisters list (GK + Sisters) and I like the idea of the Heavy Bolter Retributors. My only concern is that the Retributors are going to end up exposed and easily killed. I've got about 200 points to play with to support them, so any advice on what I need to make this idea successful is appreciated.
HB Rets work because:
1) They are cheap
2) They are efficient when paired with a canoness/imagifers
3) They are an easy place to dump excess faith
4) If you're opponent is shooting at them, you've already lost because all your more aggressive threats are dead.
All of these things x2. I've ended a lot of 8th edition games with my castle of 2x rets, 2x imagifers, and 1x canoness still untouched sitting on 2/3 objectives backfield. I've also had a couple games where they waste shots trying to kill some rets but I keep using the imagifer to bring bodies back. I really like how they play this edition.
In five games last weekend, I think I lost rets in maybe one game. My opponents were mostly busy dealing with Dominions and Seras/St C early game and obsec models late game.
...And the entire time the rets are just plunking away once or twice a turn. 4 heavy bolters usually take 1 or 2 wounds off of a vehicle/knight. It adds up. (assuming there isn't any infantry to chew through)
deviantduck wrote: ...And the entire time the rets are just plunking away once or twice a turn. 4 heavy bolters usually take 1 or 2 wounds off of a vehicle/knight. It adds up. (assuming there isn't any infantry to chew through)
Exactly. They aren't outstanding, but they are consistent.
Thoughts on 2x Canoness supporting 3x Ret Squads (one extra lady in each squad to eat a wound) vs 1x Canoness, Imagifiers, and 2x Rets? On paper the 3x Ret wins offensively, but I'm not sure if this offsets the Imagifier or two I'd get which helps with staying power.
If your army-wide 2+ AoF has nowhere else to go, it might diminish the value of an Imagifier somewhat. On the other hand, the possibility of using Martyrdom on an Imagifier late in the game if the enemy gets into your deployment zone might increase their value. The Imagifier can also help stand heavy bolters back up, run your Warlord Canoness out of (or into, with a Blade of Admonition) harm's way, or give your Rets an extra fall back move to distance themselves from a nasty melee. Not sure how you'd represent those arithmetically when you crunch the damage output numbers, but they can provide a nice surprise for your opponent at times.
Anyone found a use for multi melta rets? I’m about to repaint mine, plannin on running them with 10 sisters 4 multimeltas and a combo plasma, with a imagifier.
Does anyone put Inferno pistols on anything other than Seraphim or a Canoness? I just bought some pretty good ones from a Shapeways vendor and I'm going to have extras. A Dominion Superior seems like the most obvious place. Half the price of a combi, give up some range, but use it in melee after the alpha... is anyone doing this?
MacPhail wrote: Does anyone put Inferno pistols on anything other than Seraphim or a Canoness? I just bought some pretty good ones from a Shapeways vendor and I'm going to have extras. A Dominion Superior seems like the most obvious place. Half the price of a combi, give up some range, but use it in melee after the alpha... is anyone doing this?
I don't think I have ever used a pistol in hand to hand. And I run seraphim. Either they are dead or they fallback to make sure the unit can be shot at.
But to answer the question, just on Seraphim so far.
I might try an Inferno on a Dominion Superior. Usually I fall my Meltas back from melee after the alpha strike and countercharge. Occasionally it is worth it to leave them stuck in to stall a unit while I maneuver or contest an objective for an extra turn. On those occasions I'm glad when I can plasma pistol someone in the face. I've also blown up my Superior in those circumstances from time to time.
@ Rynner: I assume you're farming Martyrs with your Dialogi... are you a firm believer in that approach? What about swapping one for an Imagifier at the cost of a DC? You'd still run her forward to die, but maybe get an extra AoF in the meantime. It's a question of infrequent but reliable AoFs, possibly outside of your turn, vs. more frequent but less reliable AoFs during your turn. Might be worth mixing both. Overall it looks extremely hard hitting.
I've been using the Seraphim a lot for assault lately, at least against vehicles. Move them up, shoot at a target, then assault a nearby vehicle. If you surround it and it doesn't have fly then your ladies get to skip your opponents shooting phase. Then on your next turn you get to fire away like you would normally, hopefully kill it, then assault something else. I've been running them as a 7 man squad so you can cage a rhino pretty easily.
In my five missions last weekend, I think I always had opportunities to sacrifice Imagifers and Canonesses. I even would warn my opponents but they'd be like 'Oh well' and then kill an imagifer.
Also, omg, how did I not notice that Imagifers have like 4 wounds?
MacPhail wrote: Does anyone put Inferno pistols on anything other than Seraphim or a Canoness? I just bought some pretty good ones from a Shapeways vendor and I'm going to have extras. A Dominion Superior seems like the most obvious place. Half the price of a combi, give up some range, but use it in melee after the alpha... is anyone doing this?
All my superiors use both an Inferno Pistol and a Stormbolter (allowed RAW). I mainly run Dom Superiors in Repressors- Stormbolters for Dakka at range, and Infernos for up close and personal. But even my BSS Superiors run with both.
pretre wrote: In my five missions last weekend, I think I always had opportunities to sacrifice Imagifers and Canonesses. I even would warn my opponents but they'd be like 'Oh well' and then kill an imagifer.
Also, omg, how did I not notice that Imagifers have like 4 wounds?
Have you been playing them as 1 wound? Cause I did for months and months.
pretre wrote: In my five missions last weekend, I think I always had opportunities to sacrifice Imagifers and Canonesses. I even would warn my opponents but they'd be like 'Oh well' and then kill an imagifer.
Also, omg, how did I not notice that Imagifers have like 4 wounds?
Have you been playing them as 1 wound? Cause I did for months and months.
Melissia wrote: Yeah they're not great characters but at least they can take a sniper hit or two.
It actually works out to your disadvantage that they have more wounds for the most part now that martyrdom is a thing. I was trying to get one to die to overwatch.
Melissia wrote: Yeah they're not great characters but at least they can take a sniper hit or two.
I found that when not fighting units that are actually good on Close Combat, that the 4 Wounds and 3 Attacks @ WS 3+ make the Imagifier surprisingly useful. Makes me kinda wish you could give her a Power Sword so that she could be marginally dangerous.
Each Repressor will have 2 dominions for 4 meltas and 6 storm bolters. The canoness will either hang back to buff/protect the rets, or if they have no deep strikers walk up the middle to hold an objective. Essentially every gun should have a target first turn.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I finally finished my new Celestine and my seraphim. They're ready to purify some heretics.
Those models look great... really striking paint scheme! I like the bases too. Are they part of a diorama?
List looks very solid and very mobile. Is it more of a 'run forward and gun everything down' rather than a 'play objectives and outlast the other guy' type approach?
Thanks, I'm a really, really slow painter.. My whole army is themed as the St. Louis Cardinals. 40k needs more baseball in it. The bases are just from MicroArt studios. They're pricey but nice.
With the rets/imagifer/canoness castle you can spread 2 obectives 12" apart and hold them both pretty easily.
deviantduck wrote: Thanks, I'm a really, really slow painter.. My whole army is themed as the St. Louis Cardinals. 40k needs more baseball in it. The bases are just from MicroArt studios. They're pricey but nice.
With the rets/imagifer/canoness castle you can spread 2 obectives 12" apart and hold them both pretty easily.
Sweet, bro! Those are really nicely painted models!!
Yup, plastic Sisters of Battle are on their way. For reals.
We know many of you have been waiting patiently (and impatiently…) for a long time for the Adepta Sororitas, and that for many of you this is more than ‘just’ a new army. So, we’re going to do something we’ve never done before – right up until the release, we’ll be bringing you updates on the Sisters of Battle, sharing images and snippets of info and a whole ton of behind the scenes goodness.
Emperor willing, the Battle Sisters of the Adepta Sororitas will be ready to take the fight to the renegade, the heretic and the unbeliever in 2019.
I’ve been hurt too many times in the past to put any Faith in anything I see regarding plastic sisters or an actual Codex until I’m swiping my Amex at the game store for them.
Besides, it’s not even April yet, so best case scenario we’re stuck waiting another year or so. By that time 9th edition will probably be gearing up...
I'll believe it when they start showing the real deal. As for " So, we’re going to do something we’ve never done before – right up until the release, we’ll be bringing you updates on the Sisters of Battle, sharing images and snippets of info and a whole ton of behind the scenes goodness."
right up til the release....? What are they gonna do every week/every other week. "Ok so we saw a guy talk about them!" Next two weeks "they got a cool fan sketch that was made by a sla---Intern!" Two weeks after "So they are females and fight stuff, they aren't aliens and they are males."
Oberron wrote: I'll believe it when they start showing the real deal. As for " So, we’re going to do something we’ve never done before – right up until the release, we’ll be bringing you updates on the Sisters of Battle, sharing images and snippets of info and a whole ton of behind the scenes goodness."
right up til the release....? What are they gonna do every week/every other week. "Ok so we saw a guy talk about them!" Next two weeks "they got a cool fan sketch that was made by a sla---Intern!" Two weeks after "So they are females and fight stuff, they aren't aliens and they are males."
Are you kidding? Besides the obvious releasing test rules of new Relics and Warlord Traits or changes to unit profiles slowly, making new miniatures is a mutli-stage process. There'll be concept art, then CAD then pictures of actual models. Obviously there will be a few kits in the works.
Release any one of those things once a month for a year, it's trivial.
Oberron wrote: I'll believe it when they start showing the real deal. As for " So, we’re going to do something we’ve never done before – right up until the release, we’ll be bringing you updates on the Sisters of Battle, sharing images and snippets of info and a whole ton of behind the scenes goodness."
right up til the release....? What are they gonna do every week/every other week. "Ok so we saw a guy talk about them!" Next two weeks "they got a cool fan sketch that was made by a sla---Intern!" Two weeks after "So they are females and fight stuff, they aren't aliens and they are males."
Are you kidding? Besides the obvious releasing test rules of new Relics and Warlord Traits or changes to unit profiles slowly, making new miniatures is a mutli-stage process. There'll be concept art, then CAD then pictures of actual models. Obviously there will be a few kits in the works.
Release any one of those things once a month for a year, it's trivial.
And we have no idea how long they have either been working on plastic sisters, or even if they have already started on them, or still waiting to even begin to make them. I'm being skeptical on what they are going to do based on things that they already have done, they aren't going to be as lame as my extreme examples (hopefully). But the information they are going to give is going to be a mix bag of, so vague that it won't really have anything meaningful behind it (look at their Rumor Engine), rules that we can already expect several models to have so won't be anything really 'new' and a couple of actually new things. its going to be an interesting balancing act that GW is going to have to do to keep the info keeping people "thirsty for more" without over shadowing any other release that is currently going on at the time and so little it might as well be nothing, and we all know how good GW is with balance. We will have a decent amount of the beta rules with the next chapter approved that is going to be released later this year that will be codex .5 and I am excited that they are finally going to be plastic in 2019 (emperor willing whatever that means). But ever since the online codex release for sisters, i'm keeping a less than optimistic outlook on it until i see otherwise.
this will be my final post about it to not stray off the Tactica anymore.
IandI wrote: I’ve been hurt too many times in the past to put any Faith in anything I see regarding plastic sisters or an actual Codex until I’m swiping my Amex at the game store for them.
Besides, it’s not even April yet, so best case scenario we’re stuck waiting another year or so. By that time 9th edition will probably be gearing up...
If they're using Chapter Approved as a beta, then I wouldn't expect the actual sister's codex until after July. Probably closer to November or December. I figure 3-6 months for info to come in from the beta (assuming they're be honest about it being a beta), then 3 months to do any re-writes and send to print. I'm probably being generous about the re-writes.
Okay, to the main point, I'm obviously giddy, 'nuff said.
Regarding the actual rules, I'm cautiously optimistic. I thought CA gave us some very playable and balanced rules. I use some combination of Martyrdom and Purity of Faith every game. If that design team is involved, I feel like I can hope for balanced, reasonably priced, relevant rules.
Regarding models, having assembled and partially painted Celestine, Eleanor, Genevieve, and Greyfax, I'm very excited to see what kind of multipart kits will be on offer. The design and execution of these modern kits are just excellent.
Aaaand back to tactica, I can report a victory vs. Nurgle Demons at 1k. I poured everything into the Great Unclean One on Turn 1, plasma and melta in the shooting phase and Celestine and Bullgryns to finish the job in melee. Then stormbolters to gun down 2x30 demons. Unforseen hazard: watch out for Nurglings' T1 charge.
I'll be trying out footsloggers (the "Witchhunters" list in my sig) at 2k this weekend.
Taking out a GUO on first turn? Great!
Nurglings can tie up anything that doesn't fly (including Knights... they can't step over non-infantry models)... really tough.
Anpu-adom wrote: Taking out a GUO on first turn? Great!
Nurglings can tie up anything that doesn't fly (including Knights... they can't step over non-infantry models)... really tough.
Looking forward to hear how the Witchhunters do.
Thanks... it took a LOT. Basically my whole force. 3x plasma Scions boosted by multiple orders, 1x Inferno Seraphim in optimal range, Celestine's flamer, and various bolters and bolt pistols, plus Celestine's melee, Bullgryns on the charge, an Inquisitor with maul, 3x Acolytes, and a Priest with maul, all with tons of buffs and rerolls, AND mortal wounds in the psychic phase. I had a few stormbolters elsewhere dealing with Nurglings, but it was basically 1000 points of me shooting and fighting about 300 points of him. The Greater Unclean One actually had a few wounds left, but then I realized I'd forgotten to reroll all the hits and wounds for Quarry with my little Inquisitorial detachment. Even cheesy Acolytes deliver some hurt when you've got chainswords, a Priest, and Quarry... it worked out to a dozen attacks rerolling hits and wounds for just 24 points.
How many CPs do you guys try to have in your army? (At 2000pts)
I've been messing around with some armies and different detachment combinations and I'm just not sure if more CPs are worth the cost of a surplus of Canonesses (?), Or if it's a better idea to just take the detachments that fit the force best and not worry too much about CPs.
Asking mainly from a Pure Sisters list point of view.
P.S. Hooray for plastic sisters maybe coming in a year or more.
CP are way more useful post Chapter Approved. I use one or both of those stragems most games. I could easily using two CP per turn rerolling Imagifiers, Celestine's charge, denying nasty witchcraft, occasionally martyring someone, and of course always having Celestine's rez reroll standing by.
All that said, pure Sisters can run on way fewer CP than most armies because we don't have as many uses for them. Don't sell the Canoness short, though. I run one forward with the BoA and stash one in the back to buff.
I do agree that Canonesses are useful, I always have a use for at least 2, a ranged one to sit back with rets or stormbolter squads, and a more tooled up one with the relic blade and an inferno pistol to run around and punch things.
It's more when I get into having the 3rd or 4th canoness that I start questioning if having an extra command point or two is worth it. Taking 2 outrider detatchments when I can fit the units I'm taking into 1 instead, for example.
Creeping Dementia wrote: How many CPs do you guys try to have in your army? (At 2000pts)
I've been messing around with some armies and different detachment combinations and I'm just not sure if more CPs are worth the cost of a surplus of Canonesses (?), Or if it's a better idea to just take the detachments that fit the force best and not worry too much about CPs.
Asking mainly from a Pure Sisters list point of view.
P.S. Hooray for plastic sisters maybe coming in a year or more.
My list effectively hasn't changed since the edition dropped, so 6. 3 base, plus Outrider/Outrider/Spearhead for another 3.
While I typically do run out of CP during a game, I've never been at a want for them. I only have the 3 mandatory HQ's as characters, and only St.C ever goes anywhere dangerous, since my Canonesses are busier buffing Retributors and Exorcists.
6 is entirely adequate to provide for Denying the Witch, St.C's resurrection/faith, and re-rolling the output for the Exorcist.
With regard to chainswords vs. power weapons; I almost always chose Chainswords. They're free. However, I might otherwise consider power axes on units who will be in melee [unfortunately, my Seraphim Superior only gets a sword for some reason]. They have completely identical performance to the maul against Marines, but improved effectiveness against Tau, Guardsmen, and Tyranids [since S5 doesn't matter and you get +1AP]. OTOH, they're one point more, which adds up quick if you're making them standard issue, but if you're doing that there's a lot of better things you could buy with your points than those axes or mauls.
Look at your army. Now look at the new Saint C and geminae. Look at your army. Pretty darn close.
Fair bet to say Saint C and the wonder twins will be what they look like if theres even any change at all.
Let's take that talk right back over to the two or three threads dedicated to insulting each other for our opinions on what is coming for plastic sisters. Thanks!
Re: CP. I've been running the full Brig, so 12. It was super nice to always have enough.
1x Captain with jump pack, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield
1x Captain with jump pack, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield
5x Scouts
5x Scouts
5x Scouts
7x Death Company, Boltguns, Chainswords, Jump Packs
Supreme Command - Custodes
1x Shield Captain on Dawn Eagle Jetbike
1x Shield Captain on Dawn Eagle Jetbike
1x Shield Captain on Dawn Eagle Jetbike
Thoughts behind the list - its fast and if I can get there it hits like a truck. Furthermore as 8th has evolved the days of leaf blower guard type lists are mostly behind us. With the addition of heavy progressive, fast moving units, and amazing ITC terrain I feel you really need to be fast, mobile, and won't get screwed over if something touches you in close combat. My list, other than the scouts, are all units that can fly and are easily to hide.
You'll notice the lack of repressors. Thats not because I think they are bad, they're not. It just that in play testing I found that they never lived past turn two and that Seraphim are way easier to hide, are cheaper, and have similar damage output.
That being said going into Adepticon I had only ever play tested on ITC type terrain or terrain that the TO's or store owner's had put a lot of effort into adapting for 8th. I had even asked the Adepticon staff if we would be using the lower level ruins blocked line of site house rule and their response to me was "no but we are modifying all our tables to have heavy LOS terrain". With that in mind I felt reasonably confident about bringing a horde of t3 bodies.
There were two matches though that I going into it I knew I couldn't win. The first was flyrants and the second was 2-3 fire raptors and a massed bodies. The Flyrant list however isn't a bad loss. In all my games against it I would at least score 8-10 points. If I drew it, provided I did well in the other games, I had a fighters chance at the finals. On the flip side if I drew fire raptors in planet bowling ball I might as well just concede pre game. No point in taking my models out only to put them back in their case 10-15 minutes later.
Going into it I wasn't playing for day two, I was playing for ITC points. My goal was 3-1 and 90-110 ITC points. Nothing that I felt was unreasonable at all.
Finally one last note before I get started. I'm local to the area so I head over Wednesday night to check in and attend the GW seminar (Sisters rules being released as they are being written FTW!). After wards I attempt to check into the championship and get a lay of the land and notice something important. The terrain was pretty awful overall for competitive play. About 25% of the tables had great LOS terrain, 25% at least let you hide a unit or two while the remaining 50% might as well have had no terrain. On the car ride home I actually debate on changing to repressors because at least they could survive a turn or so (We couldn't check in for the GT till the morning of). I decide not to because 3-4 repressors are worse vs flyrants and marginally better vs fire raptors. Given that flyrants are the flavor of the month I decided to chance it and leave my list as is.
Game 1:
I drew a close combat khorne list in heavy LOS terrain. The mission was progressive. We both get to the table, look at each others lists and laugh as his shooting was just 2-3 rhinos and mine range was basically just 12". If anything the massive impassible ruins hurt him.
Anyway I lose the roll to go first, fail to seize, and wind up going second. Not a great start. I really want to go first in progressive missions to gain board presence.
Turn one he kills a 9-11 scouts and fails a 9" charge, with a reroll, on a shield captain that I had messed up screening. In my turn one I kill the 20 blood letters that had come into my back field, surround a rhino, blow it up in shooting, thus preventing 10x berserkers from getting out.
The next two turns we play a game of whack a mole - I.E. he charges me I kill the unit all while we are similarly scoring on progressive.
I wind up winning 32-8 due mostly to kill points and scoring 4 out of 5 of my terrorty objectives.
Game Two - LOW heavy guard
His list had the lancer knight (5++ vs shooing, 4++ vs CC), a bane blade, and bunch of infantry guard units on a table where I could at least hide a unit or two. On paper I felt like this should be a fairly easy max point win. My plan made sense, wait a turn, bait the knight out, kill it, proceeded to kill everything but the baneblade and jump on objectives end game.
I win the roll to go first and I have no idea what I was thinking or why I even debated not taking second turn. However I thought about it for a minute or two and stupidly chose to go first to protect my scouts. Anyway my turn one I kill an infantry squad I think. His turn one he killed the scouts and advanced the knight up into range of most of my Seraphim, Shield, Captains, and Celestine. He used rotate ion shield on the knight in both shooting and CC and between 3 units of seraphim, celestine, 2x shield captains and a 4 damage thunder hammer knight I do a whopping total of 5 wounds.
I'll spare you the details but it goes downhill from here. In retrospect I played the game all wrong. The knights damage output really wasn't that high. Yeah it was a threat to my characters but only minor. Most of my guys had 3++ saves and with only 4 attacks it might kill a shield a captain a turn in close combat, if I let it get close combat, and if I'm unlucky. What I should have done was go second (duh), ignore the knight and kill everything else. I can easily kill 10-12 guard squads in 5 turns leaving him with only a knight and a baneblade.
0-40 loss.
Game 3:
The typical Eldar nonsense on a board that had good terrain for the armies on it. The mission was progressive. I win the roll to go first and take it. My turn one I AoF/Advice 4 out of 5 of my Seraphim unit and Celestine up the board. I move my shield captains into position for a great turn two and while taking out all my marked for death units. His turn one he takes out my one shield captain without a 3++ with some fire dragons because I'm bad a screening characters apparently. It takes 2-3 turns to establish board dominance however he really couldn't do much to me in decent to good LOS terrain. I wind up winning 40-0.
Game 4:
At this point I can't make day 2 (not my goal) and from the looks of it going into round 4, even if I maxed I wouldn't score 90-110 ITC points. I was looking at 86 at best assuming I maxed. Furthermore between Adepticon closing the doors that let fresh air in, gamer funk, and vape smoke I felt an asthma attack coming on for the first turn in years. I actually had a mini coughing fit that really freaked me out. However 5 people were borrowing models from me that I really wanted to get back and I had already paid for the event and wanted to play. I decide to sit outside, away from the smokers for an hour or so. If I could get my breathing under control I would play, if not I would drop. Either way I wasn't in a position to drive home just yet so I had to wait it out. I wind up getting my breathing under control and play the game which winds up being -
Fire Raptors on planet bowling ball. I knew I couldn't win this game unless my opponent decided to not shoot his fire raptors for 3 turns. Furthermore I knew I wouldn't even score a point and I really considered just conceding before staring. I didn't see the point in taking my models out just to put them away 30 minutes later. Pre game I found out my opponent came a decent distance to get here and probably wanted to play. I would if I spent all that money to get here. Given that I was stuck waiting to get my models back I decide to just play the game as at least it would kill some time. Who knows maybe I'd make a friend out of it.
The game went as expected. I was functionally tabled turn 2 and conceded.
I wind up scoring 72 points for some awful placement.
Post event thoughts. I know its trivial at this point but terrain makes a huge difference. Adepticon missions thus far are my favorite missions out of the big 3 (well really 4) formats (ITC/Adepticon/Nova/Reengage). Adepticon missions in tournament terrain are the most balanced missions I've played to date. Hats off the Jason and crew for that! That being said Adeption still uses 4h/5th ed terrain that really skews things. I'm not knocking them, I get it. No one wants to spend their hobby time/money on terrain. Especially when you have 100-200 tables of really nice looking terrain already.
Thoughts on the list. I'm still really happy with it. I deserved to lose game 2. That loss was on me. As for game 4, well, I'm not 100% sure a sisters list could have won that match up in that terrain. The inflating cultists stopped scout moves while the fire raptors killed the tanks. The only thing I'm most likely going to drop is the death company. They did nothing. I'm waiting till the FAQ to make any changes though.
Thanks for reporting in. Sorry to hear that rnd 4 was so one-sided. It's interesting to see such a large group of seraphim, and in larger units. From the sounds of things they worked out for you, but could you say how you used them?
Assuming points could be found, would 10 units of 5 (with full infernos of course) be a viable alternative, or do the extra bodies help?
I don't think 10 units of 5 would have helped. I don't have the detachment for them and I found larger units made a difference in terms of survivability. I had originally started off with 6 units of 7 but found them too fragile. 9 woman units really made a huge difference. It doesn't seem like it on paper but it really does.
Depending on what I was playing I used them a few ways. One of their two main jobs was to screen my captains and Celestine. They can keep up with any element in the list. I would also use them to shoot whatever needed killing and then jump in CC, hopped to do nothing, and then surround a model so they can't be shot for a turn. They basically played interference.
Lastly if your opponent isn't paying attention you can generally snipe characters with a 24" move.
Most games I would use Celestines AoF to double move a second or 3rd unit depending on if I would roll a 4+ with my Imagifer. My act of faith order went - Imagifer, 2+, Celestine. I would then move + advance Celestine hopefully into +1 invulnerable save range or AoF range on them. I could generally move 3 units 24" a turn or shoot twice as needed. It took most people off guard and shocked a bunch of my opponents at just how fast they are.
As for game 4 theres nothing to be sorry about. Thats 8th for you. Table or be tabled. The over whelming majority of games I've played this edition have been blowouts either way. I think out of all of the games of 8th I've played only 2-3 have been what you could call close.
Did you leave plasma pistols off the seraphim superiors because of points, or lack of usefulness?
For game 4 I was referring more to the lack of terrain, rather then your opponent's list. But yeah, I've noticed that. Getting blown out turn one is hard to recover from.
Adepticon's terrain was pretty sparse. I didn't see a ton of tables with LoS blockers. I didn't make it up there in time for the singles. :(
I did play in the team tourney, though. None of the games were that remarkable except 1. My partner for that game had a shadowsword and we were paired against a list of world eaters and necrons. Their pylon 1 shotted the shadowsword top of 1. First shot of the game. Boom. 25% of the army gone. But it was ok. Celestine channeled a fury that was a lovechild of wolverine's bezerker rage and the hulk's smash on steroids and PCP. She managed to solo kill a necron overlord, about 16 immortals, 15 khorne bezerkers, a champ of khorne, and some warriors. Except for the warriors, the rest was 1 giant melee from bottom of 1 through turn 5. They killed her once, but then never scratched her armor again. After that dog pile was finally over, all they had left was the pylon and she took another 6 wounds off of it.
Mmmpi wrote: Did you leave plasma pistols off the seraphim superiors because of points, or lack of usefulness?
For game 4 I was referring more to the lack of terrain, rather then your opponent's list. But yeah, I've noticed that. Getting blown out turn one is hard to recover from.
I don't find plasma pistols worth the points. The superior generally winds up throwing a grenade anyway.
rrrr...I need to get more seraphim. I have 23 (only three vet sisters). But I don't know if I want to wait a year or more.
Repressors are still good. It really depends on the rest of the list. After the points hike in Chapter Approved I couldn't get them to work in a list I liked anymore so swapped to Seraphim. 23 is still plenty.
So I managed to get 32nd out of the 200+ people at adepticon running 1825pts of SoB so I figured I'd throw out my list and my basic thoughts on how it works.
List was: Battalion+Outrider; Celestine, Cannoness with IP PS, Custodes Bike Captain (warlord with 3++bike and 5++), 3x5 BSS with SB, 4x5 Melta Doms, 1x5 SB Doms, 5 seraphin with IP, 2x5 HB rets, 4xImmoflamer 1xRepressor.
So my thoughts; The 3x5 BSS were a last minute addition that I absolutely loved and basically won me 2 of my games. 1 unit of retributors is plenty, an imagifier is probably a better investment overall than a second unit. 4 units of melta doms is exactly the perfect number. Immoflamer immolators are better than repressors en masse since the point changes but 1-2 repressors are still absolutely mandatory.
Celestine remains absolutely incredible and I love her so much and she killed 3 blood angels characters out of a BACC bomb before they could swing and oh my god is she just the best.
I played 0 test games...or any other 40k for like 2 months before the tournament so I had no idea how to use the shield captain. He's more fragile than you'd think.
A unit of 5 seraphim with IP are mandatory in every imperium list. That unit did so much work across my games it's literally unbelievable. They won me game 2 by themselves by letting me snipe out a Banner of the Emperor Ascendent.
Although I never planned to start sisters of battle an acquaintance of mine sold me is small Sisters army so currently I have.
20- Metal Sisters
5-Seraphims
1- Old Witchunter inquisitor that I am gonna use as cannoness
1- Priest
The thing is that I got this just because it was almost a freebie and am not familiar with the Sister Line. I am planning to use them as an ally detachment for my Grey Knights while the plastic sisters don't arrive.
So I was wondering where I should expand from here?
Celestine seems like a given, but dunno if the other sister units and vehicles are any good (Ihave been interested in the exorcist), can anyone give me an overview?
MacPhail wrote: Thanks for all these tournament writeups, everyone!
@GuardStrider, what specials or heavies do you have in that lot? You might be close to filling out a small detachment.
The specials/heavies that I have are 3 flamers,2 heavy flarmers, 1 Stormbolter and 1 Multi-Melta. Altough as I said I play GK, so I have a bunch of stormbolters laying around, which I might try to convert, though never did conversion with metal.
ERJAK wrote: So I managed to get 32nd out of the 200+ people at adepticon running 1825pts of SoB so I figured I'd throw out my list and my basic thoughts on how it works.
List was: Battalion+Outrider; Celestine, Cannoness with IP PS, Custodes Bike Captain (warlord with 3++bike and 5++), 3x5 BSS with SB, 4x5 Melta Doms, 1x5 SB Doms, 5 seraphin with IP, 2x5 HB rets, 4xImmoflamer 1xRepressor.
So my thoughts; The 3x5 BSS were a last minute addition that I absolutely loved and basically won me 2 of my games. 1 unit of retributors is plenty, an imagifier is probably a better investment overall than a second unit. 4 units of melta doms is exactly the perfect number. Immoflamer immolators are better than repressors en masse since the point changes but 1-2 repressors are still absolutely mandatory.
Celestine remains absolutely incredible and I love her so much and she killed 3 blood angels characters out of a BACC bomb before they could swing and oh my god is she just the best.
I played 0 test games...or any other 40k for like 2 months before the tournament so I had no idea how to use the shield captain. He's more fragile than you'd think.
A unit of 5 seraphim with IP are mandatory in every imperium list. That unit did so much work across my games it's literally unbelievable. They won me game 2 by themselves by letting me snipe out a Banner of the Emperor Ascendent.
MacPhail wrote: Thanks for all these tournament writeups, everyone!
@GuardStrider, what specials or heavies do you have in that lot? You might be close to filling out a small detachment.
The specials/heavies that I have are 3 flamers,2 heavy flarmers, 1 Stormbolter and 1 Multi-Melta. Altough as I said I play GK, so I have a bunch of stormbolters laying around, which I might try to convert, though never did conversion with metal.
Unfortunately that's not the best assortment for this edition... you'd do better with a bunch of melta guns and storm bolters. Converting with metal pretty much sucks... you either go big with a Dremel and really reshape the metal around your new bits, or you end up surface mounting the new bits in a pretty obvious way. There's a few Sisters sculpts with outstretched arms that lend themselves to weapon swaps, but that's it. Given what you've got, I'd say take the flamer/heavy flamer combos on 2x5 BSS units, stick them in a Rhino, and go dominate an objective, with a third unit without upgrades hanging out in your back line as a cheap screen for something. Then you're on the way to a battalion with Celestine running with the Seraphim plus the option to shove a bunch of auto-hits in someone's face.
So this past weekend I played in a small 8 man RTT. Normally around this time I'm super burnt of from Adepticon but I'm not. I'm guessing its a combination of not caring during the team torment and basically playing 3 games in the championships.
Anyway knowing theres a big FAQ coming I only wanted to make quick changes to my list. I.E. things that didn't require too much thought. My List:
1x Captain with jump pack, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield
1x Captain with jump pack, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield
5x Scouts
5x Scouts
5x Scouts
6x Aggressors - All the boltguns
Supreme Command - Custodes
1x Shield Captain on Dawn Eagle Jetbike, Misercordia
1x Shield Captain on Dawn Eagle Jetbike
1x Shield Captain on Dawn Eagle Jetbike
The event was using open war cards and would draw each round before the game.
Game 1:
Imperials.
Mission: 3 objectives, end game.
Deployment: Dawn of warish. We split our armies into 3rds. The 1st part you deploy, the 2nd part comes in turn 2, and the 3rd part comes in turn 3. You could come in from any board edge that wasn't your opponent's deployment zone and more than 9" away from enemy models. If you could deep strike then you still had to come in on the turn you were selected to but followed normal deep strike rules.
This game was pretty simple. I just had to kill all his objective secured units and hop on 2 of the objectives end game, which I did.
Game 2:
Ravenwing.
Mission: Progressive objectives. Deployment: Some v thing. I had turn one and killed 2 units of black knights and a speeder. I failed a charge to score 3 points my turn one instead of 2. His turn one he kills a handful of not important units and scores 3 points. I basically tabled him my turn 2 and we call it there.
Game 3:
Guard/Blood Angels.
His list was a guard brigade with a bunch of mortars and rough riders. He also had a Blood angels Battalion with 2 units of Sanguinary Guard.
Mission: The first person to burn all 3 of your opponents objectives win. Objectives had to be 6" from the edge of board and at least 6" apart. Deployment: Two upside down Vs.
We basically deploy our objectives across from each others, 6 up and 6 across from each other objective. Looking at the match up and what I'm facing I figure I couldn't kill that many sanguinary gaurd before they tore me apart and since I didn't have to win, I wasn't even going to try. I deploy everything, screening with my scouts. He only deploys the guard and BA scouts. He puts one infantry squad on each objective with mortar teams close. Despite having the +1 to go first I lose the roll and attempt to seize and fail. Great.
His turn one is good but it's not enough. For some reason he didn't even bring in a unit of blood angels. He manages to kill a unit of seraphim, 2 units of scouts, render my aggressors unless. I do kill all his rough riders. The big thing is though two of my Custode captains are tagged in close combat and cant charge.
In my turn one I passed enough acts of faith to move 2 units of Seraphim up and Celestine. I kill off all the troops on the objectives, charge the mortars, and burn all his objectives and win.
I wind up winning the event.
Thoughts. Open war are fun but not great for competitive play (like that needs to be said). Had my opponent game 3 brought in at least one unit of Sanguinary Guard, started his Sanguinary Guard on the board, or castled around his objectives he would of have won or at worst tied me. I don't think I can bring down 17ish Sanguinary Guard with a 5+++ before they wreck me. I know he didn't think so but that game could have gone either way had he deployed a bit better.
Okay, everyone... I took the plunge on two Repressor conversion kits assembled from the bits available from Zefig, a Dakka user with a Shapeways collection on offer. I'm pretty pumped to do them up to run as flamer Immolators or as various Repressors with magnetized options. Could a few of you relate your rationale for any combination of Repressor weapon and wargear loadouts, passenger lists, and target priorities? I know these things hit hard, and I want to use them effectively. Thanks!
Also, I'm torn on the Repressor paint scheme, if you'll indulge me with some opinions on the following options:
- Match the current white Rhino body with a white top plate and green turret rings, blend with the other transports
- Make the Repressor tops green for contrast to stand out a little
- Build up two more Rhino hulls and make the Repressors completely green to contrast sharply with white Rhinos and Immolators
Cool, so two votes for white with green trim. That's probably also the easiest route. Hopefully I'll get started this weekend unless I get distracted by MDF scenery.
On loadout, is the standard to buy the extra heavy flamer (2 total)? Seems like a lot of points, but since they get close and stay close, maybe the extra dice are worth it.
Also, is the ram worth seeking out a charge target, or just charge more opportunisticaly like a Rhino?
I always run it with HF, SB, SB. The repressor is amazing all around. Against infantry 9 attacks, Str 6 AP-1 does work. I assault with them every chance I get.
Fantastic. I'll knock together a mech list for review with HF/SB/SB. Imagine if the Sisters codex delivers an Order focused on mechanized infantry with anything like some of the Regimental Doctrines (ignore -1 AP, Advance + Shoot, re-roll random RoF) and the Crush Them stratagem (Advance + Charge, melee hits on 2+). But it sounds like they're pretty solid already.
Just to inquire but the Immolator kit is plastic so no use waiting before the official plastic release to get a couple of them, right? (Thinking of getting some dozer blades somewhere and double them as double flamer repressors when I feel like it)
I was under the impression they would be metal since they are direct order and I kept hearing the sister line was all metal, but store description says plastic
GuardStrider wrote: Just to inquire but the Immolator kit is plastic so no use waiting before the official plastic release to get a couple of them, right? (Thinking of getting some dozer blades somewhere and double them as double flamer repressors when I feel like it)
I was under the impression they would be metal since they are direct order and I kept hearing the sister line was all metal, but store description says plastic
The old old old Immolator kit (pre 2003 I think) was built on the 1990’s Rhino chassis and the turret was metal. The “new” version (post 3rd edition) is all plastic and is based on the Rhino chassis that you see in every currently sold Space Marine tank kit.
As far as we know now, there's no reason to wait to buy immolators. And yes, you can get big dozers, uparmor the immo and add a cupola heavy flamer/storm bolter to make it into a repressor. I have some in my gallery, if you're interested.
Just played an Open War game with the Sisters yesterday, for funsies. Tied it. The Blood Angels took it in the face in turn one as usual with Sisters of Battle and then returned fire in a big healthy way as usual.
The outcome was decided when he picked up his 300 point unit and redropped them and tried a charge that would have given him control of both objectives and the victory but it was a bridge too far and so we tied.
Open War is a fun way to play. I wouldn't want to do it every game and I REALLY don't think it's great at tournaments, but I definitely like playing them.
MacPhail wrote: Fantastic. I'll knock together a mech list for review with HF/SB/SB. Imagine if the Sisters codex delivers an Order focused on mechanized infantry with anything like some of the Regimental Doctrines (ignore -1 AP, Advance + Shoot, re-roll random RoF) and the Crush Them stratagem (Advance + Charge, melee hits on 2+). But it sounds like they're pretty solid already.
Okay, here's a mech list based around my new Repressors. I could make a more well-rounded list with some Seraphim to back Celestine, but I like the amount of armor in this list and I think it enhances the survivability of not just the Repressors but also the Penitent. I'd run Repressors with double melta Doms, Immos with Stormbolter BSS and either an Imagifier or a Canoness, and Rhino full of Stormbolters. Everyone else castles up in the backfield. Five tanks push up the center with Celestine's save enhancement carrying both anti-tank and anti-horde, with Celestine and the Penitent to countercharge. There might be better mech lists outside of the Brigade... suggestions welcome.
BBAP wrote: I'm interested in Dakka's take on this list right here:
750pts - PL: 44 - Command Points: 7
Battalion - 536pts (+3 ComPoints)
2x:
- Canoness, Chainsword, Combi-Melta
3x:
- 10 Battle Sisters, Heavy Bolter, Meltagun, Combi-Melta
Vanguard - 214pts (+1 ComPoint)
- Canoness, Chainsword, Combi-Melta
- 3x Imagifer
- Hospitaller
I've run a game with it already, but I'd like some feedback from Sisters players with a little more 8th Ed experience.
I'm not sure what the plan is here. Just big blocks of sisters?
If you're at low points values, Celestine is gold. Also, if you're going to keep the Canoness, get her a Power Weapon and give her the blade of admonition. Are you playing on smaller boards or something? Because walking isn't going to get you far. I feel like you take Celestine, Seraphim, maybe a Dom and the rest BSS and you're good to go at 750.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or how about this at 750:
Spearhead -
Celestine - 200
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
9 Seraphim with 4 Inferno Pistols, Chainsword/BP - 135
5 BSS with 3 SB - 51
5 BSS with 3 SB - 51
Imagifer - 40
Dialogous - 15
747
pretre wrote: I'm not sure what the plan is here. Just big blocks of sisters?
Why not? Flak armoured CC hordes seem to have gotten a bump in 8th, so I figure BS3+ power armour hordes with massed bolters must be better. So, blocks of Sisters, and maximised AoFs per turn via lots of Imagifers and Lone Wolf Canonesses whose only job is to run forward and die so I can Martyr up some more AoFs.
The game I played was against a Chaos soup army that had no choice but to run right into boltgunning range and die, so I can't really draw any conclusions from it. I feel like it'd benefit from Seraphim or Dominions against stand-off armies, something that can land in an opponent's face and either stay there killing stuff or at the very least cause a disruption while the rest of the Sisters mongle up behind it at 6" per turn. If they move faster, that's great - if they don't, either because the Imagifers whiff or the AoFs need to be used on other things, that's fine too.
If you're at low points values, Celestine is gold.
She's awesome, but I'm trying to get as many bodies as possible on the table. The Chaos soup army I played had wretched trouble trying to chew through 36 Sisters, so I figure more Sisters might be worth taking rather than better Sisters at low points.
HBs are handy beasts, but I feel like you really need the D6 damage from Meltaguns or MMs against certain things. The bolters made a dent in my opponent's DP but it'd have stuck around much longer if I hadn't had the Combis. Also they blew up his other HQ in a single hit, which was amusing.
I dunno - I feel like this could work. What's the absolute worst match-up Sisters have in this edition?
@pretre: Very similar indeed. Im working on a 3rd squad of Rets to free up some points for flexibility... I'd love to get some Seraphim back in the list. An attempt with 3rd party bits was a bust... might just have to shell out $50 for a GW squad.
@ BBAP: One of the worst matchups I've had is assault cannon Razorback spam. They have the speed to stay out of melta range if they want to, S6 volume fire will chew through minmaxed Sisters squads, and they can nerf your shooting with a charge.
pretre wrote: I'm not sure what the plan is here. Just big blocks of sisters?
Why not? Flak armoured CC hordes seem to have gotten a bump in 8th, so I figure BS3+ power armour hordes with massed bolters must be better. So, blocks of Sisters, and maximised AoFs per turn via lots of Imagifers and Lone Wolf Canonesses whose only job is to run forward and die so I can Martyr up some more AoFs.
The game I played was against a Chaos soup army that had no choice but to run right into boltgunning range and die, so I can't really draw any conclusions from it. I feel like it'd benefit from Seraphim or Dominions against stand-off armies, something that can land in an opponent's face and either stay there killing stuff or at the very least cause a disruption while the rest of the Sisters mongle up behind it at 6" per turn. If they move faster, that's great - if they don't, either because the Imagifers whiff or the AoFs need to be used on other things, that's fine too.
If you're at low points values, Celestine is gold.
She's awesome, but I'm trying to get as many bodies as possible on the table. The Chaos soup army I played had wretched trouble trying to chew through 36 Sisters, so I figure more Sisters might be worth taking rather than better Sisters at low points.
HBs are handy beasts, but I feel like you really need the D6 damage from Meltaguns or MMs against certain things. The bolters made a dent in my opponent's DP but it'd have stuck around much longer if I hadn't had the Combis. Also they blew up his other HQ in a single hit, which was amusing.
I dunno - I feel like this could work. What's the absolute worst match-up Sisters have in this edition?
MEQ hordes are not. Guardsmen, Tyranids, Orks, Cultists, etc. are something MEQ units are not: cheap.
The reason those hordes are good is because they don't have armor and don't pay for armor.
MacPhail wrote: @ BBAP: One of the worst matchups I've had is assault cannon Razorback spam. They have the speed to stay out of melta range if they want to, S6 volume fire will chew through minmaxed Sisters squads, and they can nerf your shooting with a charge.
Thanks, man. Unfortunately all my 40k friends are hipsters who refuse to play Space Marines because they're too mainstream, but I'll bear this in mind when looking for match-ups. Seems like the stuff that'd kill minmaxed Sisters will do for my blobs too.
Has anyone played against these "unbeatable" lists I keep seeing on BoLS? The Flyrant spam thing and the Ynnari Reapers? I'm guessing the Meltas would rip through Monster-spam but playing Sisters against Ynnari Reapers seems like a recipe for disaster - which of course means I have to try it out.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: MEQ hordes are not. Guardsmen, Tyranids, Orks, Cultists, etc. are something MEQ units are not: cheap.
The reason those hordes are good is because they don't have armor and don't pay for armor.
I reckon I could fit 100 Sisters into a 2000pt list - not just Battle Sisters either, but Seraphim too. I'd never be able to afford to run such an army in my wildest dreams, but I could do it on paper.
How many models are other horde armies running at 2000pts? I know my old GSC army had 120 dudes at 1850 and 135 at 2000, which isn't that huge a disparity when you consider how many models 100 Sisters could mulch in a single Shooting phase.
MacPhail wrote: I'd love to get some Seraphim back in the list. An attempt with 3rd party bits was a bust... might just have to shell out $50 for a GW squad.
I've got some bad news... They definitely aren't $50 a squad.
MacPhail wrote: I'd love to get some Seraphim back in the list. An attempt with 3rd party bits was a bust... might just have to shell out $50 for a GW squad.
I've got some bad news... They definitely aren't $50 a squad.
Well, 4 at $14 each is $56, and I can ship for free to my local GW, but they're out of stock again...
MacPhail wrote: I'd love to get some Seraphim back in the list. An attempt with 3rd party bits was a bust... might just have to shell out $50 for a GW squad.
I've got some bad news... They definitely aren't $50 a squad.
Well, 4 at $14 each is $56, and I can ship for free to my local GW, but they're out of stock again...
Last I checked they were only selling groups of 10.
MacPhail wrote: I'd love to get some Seraphim back in the list. An attempt with 3rd party bits was a bust... might just have to shell out $50 for a GW squad.
I've got some bad news... They definitely aren't $50 a squad.
Well, 4 at $14 each is $56, and I can ship for free to my local GW, but they're out of stock again...
Last I checked they were only selling groups of 10.
I misled you... I just need four heavy bolters. I bought some bits off Shapeways to convert one of the two 4x squads of heavy flamers I had run during 7th, but the scale wasn't a good match. I might need to add a Superior given how much MSUing I'm doing, but that's just a bolter Sister in a pinch.
BBAP wrote: I'm interested in Dakka's take on this list right here:
750pts - PL: 44 - Command Points: 7
Battalion - 536pts (+3 ComPoints)
2x:
- Canoness, Chainsword, Combi-Melta
3x:
- 10 Battle Sisters, Heavy Bolter, Meltagun, Combi-Melta
Vanguard - 214pts (+1 ComPoint)
- Canoness, Chainsword, Combi-Melta
- 3x Imagifer
- Hospitaller
I've run a game with it already, but I'd like some feedback from Sisters players with a little more 8th Ed experience.
I'm not sure what the plan is here. Just big blocks of sisters?
If you're at low points values, Celestine is gold. Also, if you're going to keep the Canoness, get her a Power Weapon and give her the blade of admonition. Are you playing on smaller boards or something? Because walking isn't going to get you far. I feel like you take Celestine, Seraphim, maybe a Dom and the rest BSS and you're good to go at 750.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or how about this at 750:
Spearhead -
Celestine - 200
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
9 Seraphim with 4 Inferno Pistols, Chainsword/BP - 135
5 BSS with 3 SB - 51
5 BSS with 3 SB - 51
Imagifer - 40
Dialogous - 15
747
That's a pretty nasty 750.
I'd drop the imagifier, dialogus, and 2 stormbolters for the Gemini on Celestine. At 750 points she's a goddam blender. The rest of the army is mostly just there to not die until Celestine has killed everything. And I don't really think taking chainswords over double bolt pistol is useful enough to justify going through the effort to kitbash metal seraphim.
MacPhail wrote: @ BBAP: One of the worst matchups I've had is assault cannon Razorback spam. They have the speed to stay out of melta range if they want to, S6 volume fire will chew through minmaxed Sisters squads, and they can nerf your shooting with a charge.
Thanks, man. Unfortunately all my 40k friends are hipsters who refuse to play Space Marines because they're too mainstream, but I'll bear this in mind when looking for match-ups. Seems like the stuff that'd kill minmaxed Sisters will do for my blobs too.
Has anyone played against these "unbeatable" lists I keep seeing on BoLS? The Flyrant spam thing and the Ynnari Reapers? I'm guessing the Meltas would rip through Monster-spam but playing Sisters against Ynnari Reapers seems like a recipe for disaster - which of course means I have to try it out.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: MEQ hordes are not. Guardsmen, Tyranids, Orks, Cultists, etc. are something MEQ units are not: cheap.
The reason those hordes are good is because they don't have armor and don't pay for armor.
I reckon I could fit 100 Sisters into a 2000pt list - not just Battle Sisters either, but Seraphim too. I'd never be able to afford to run such an army in my wildest dreams, but I could do it on paper.
How many models are other horde armies running at 2000pts? I know my old GSC army had 120 dudes at 1850 and 135 at 2000, which isn't that huge a disparity when you consider how many models 100 Sisters could mulch in a single Shooting phase.
True horde armies in 8th are between 125-250 models depending on how hard they want to commit.
Horde sisters have a couple of major problems over other horde armies. One is that SoB are relatively expensive. Ork Boyz are 4ppm, infantry squads are 4ppm, poxwalkers are like 4-5ppm, Horrors are some ungodly low amount, plague bearers are 7 and are WAY tougher than SoB, cultists are 6 and can regenerate, I believe termagaunt are between 5-7. Basically SoBBSS spam is the absolute most expensive you can be and be considered a horde army .
Another issue is that SoB hordes don't kill things very well. Guard have mortar teams and cadia to buff themselves, Orkz have brutal melee, gaunts have actually quite a bit of firepower, even plaguebearers get exploding 6s on their attacks. All SoB really have is stormbolters and maybe a melta or heavybolter here and there.
Sisters are not as survivable as other hordes. Orkz and Guard are so cheap you have to kill 2 for everyone one sister you'd lose. Most of the daemon hordes can regenerate models and have some form of damage mitigation, cultists can basically go back up to 40 from 1 in a single round, poxwalkers are literally infinite if they get going, gaunts can be regenerated.
Sisters are slower than most hordes. Orkz have Da Jump, guard don't really care about how fast they move, Gaunts have ways they can teleport, daemons can teleport, cultists can teleport, poxwalkers and plaguebearers can't really be shot to death so you have to go to them. etc.
The biggest problem you run into with horde sisters is morale. Sisters don't have great ways of mitigating morale and losing 6 girls in a 10 girl squad is enough to potentially wipe the unit. If you go up to 20 and lose 10 girls, you basically lose an extra 6 off the top. And being as expensive as they are, brigades are tough to do, so you'll likely only be getting 9-10 command points. Consider you'll have to save a squad per turn for the first 3 you'd be at functionally 3-4.
And for the record, 100 sisters shooting would kill 5 tactical marines in cover or strip 7 wounds off a rhino(4 off of a leman russ). Bolters don't do much.
ERJAK wrote: Horde sisters have a couple of major problems over other horde armies. [...]
You've just listed the properties of other horde armies, and your argument seems to be that horde Sisters are a bad idea because they don't play like other horde armies do. I get that you'd need to construct and play them differently, because Sisters have different properties to Orks and Tyranids - but I think it's do-able.
For a start it's a Sisters horde, so it's going to play like Sisters do - stand-off shooting, avoiding close combat like the plague, using power armour to bounce small arms, dropping Seraphim on people out of nowhere, etc etc. Instead of mongling forward to charge and kill something in CC, you're playing a hammer and anvil game.
Your BSS are the anvil; their job is to stay at arms' length from targets (either by backing away from CC units or advancing on mobility units) and whittle them down with their bolters, Meltaguns and Heavy Bolters. It's a trickle, not a tidal wave - you're not trying to wash away huge chunks of an opposing army in a single phase like Orks do, but rather erode it over a period of time. Your Imagifers are there to score the anvil a few extra actions - you're not relying on them to carry your army, you're using the odd AoF you'll get from them to increase your capacity to move, deal damage, or do something unexpected. The Meltas and Combis you bring primarily to provide a damage boost.
Your Seraphim are the hammer; they arrive in awkward positions to disrupt an opponent's backfield or help out your anvil where needed.
Your Canonesses are Lone Wolves - they run upfield and make a nuisance of themselves, hoping your opponent kills them so you can use Martyrdom to get AoFs. You're not doing so willy-nilly, because their buffs are quite nice and only a single AoF is generated no matter how many Characters die in a single phase, but sliding a Canoness forward every couple of turns doesn't hurt.
It needs testing, but I reckon it's got legs. I think it'd do well against low model-count armies that can't kill or lock down enough Sisters every turn to prevent significant return fire, but it's going to have a tougher time against other horde armies. I really need to test it against some of them at higher points values to find out what the issues are.
And for the record, 100 sisters shooting would kill 5 tactical marines in cover or strip 7 wounds off a rhino(4 off of a leman russ). Bolters don't do much.
"Strip 7 wounds off a Rhino (4 off a Leman Russ)" he says, then in the next breath "bolters don't do much". How many of your other horde armies are taking 4 wounds off a Russ from 24" away? :-P
PS: Show me an army that's bringing 250 models to the table.
BBAP wrote: It's a trickle, not a tidal wave - you're not trying to wash away huge chunks of an opposing army in a single phase like Orks do, but rather erode it over a period of time.
I can't agree with this... most of what you've said fits somewhere on the casual to competitive scale in terms of where it might have merit, under which circumstances it might play well, etc. I've messed around with foot-blob Sisters and it isn't a bad approach. But the idea the Sisters can grind down an enemy over several turns-- in my experience-- isn't ever true. In most of my winning games, I strike decisive blows in turn 1 and turn 2 and spend the rest of the game avoiding retaliation from strong centerpiece units I can't go toe to toe with. Seraphim and Dominions target the opponent's range and mobility up front, and from then on it's board control, objective scoring, and casualty mitigation.
ERJAK wrote: Horde sisters have a couple of major problems over other horde armies. [...]
You've just listed the properties of other horde armies, and your argument seems to be that horde Sisters are a bad idea because they don't play like other horde armies do. I get that you'd need to construct and play them differently, because Sisters have different properties to Orks and Tyranids - but I think it's do-able.
For a start it's a Sisters horde, so it's going to play like Sisters do - stand-off shooting, avoiding close combat like the plague, using power armour to bounce small arms, dropping Seraphim on people out of nowhere, etc etc. Instead of mongling forward to charge and kill something in CC, you're playing a hammer and anvil game.
Your BSS are the anvil; their job is to stay at arms' length from targets (either by backing away from CC units or advancing on mobility units) and whittle them down with their bolters, Meltaguns and Heavy Bolters. It's a trickle, not a tidal wave - you're not trying to wash away huge chunks of an opposing army in a single phase like Orks do, but rather erode it over a period of time. Your Imagifers are there to score the anvil a few extra actions - you're not relying on them to carry your army, you're using the odd AoF you'll get from them to increase your capacity to move, deal damage, or do something unexpected. The Meltas and Combis you bring primarily to provide a damage boost.
Your Seraphim are the hammer; they arrive in awkward positions to disrupt an opponent's backfield or help out your anvil where needed.
Your Canonesses are Lone Wolves - they run upfield and make a nuisance of themselves, hoping your opponent kills them so you can use Martyrdom to get AoFs. You're not doing so willy-nilly, because their buffs are quite nice and only a single AoF is generated no matter how many Characters die in a single phase, but sliding a Canoness forward every couple of turns doesn't hurt.
It needs testing, but I reckon it's got legs. I think it'd do well against low model-count armies that can't kill or lock down enough Sisters every turn to prevent significant return fire, but it's going to have a tougher time against other horde armies. I really need to test it against some of them at higher points values to find out what the issues are.
And for the record, 100 sisters shooting would kill 5 tactical marines in cover or strip 7 wounds off a rhino(4 off of a leman russ). Bolters don't do much.
"Strip 7 wounds off a Rhino (4 off a Leman Russ)" he says, then in the next breath "bolters don't do much". How many of your other horde armies are taking 4 wounds off a Russ from 24" away? :-P
PS: Show me an army that's bringing 250 models to the table.
My argument isn't that horde sisters are bad because they don't do what other armies do, my argument is that horde sisters are not generally as good as other horde armies because other armies have better tools to do the things horde armies need to do. Horde sisters could work, it's just limited in what it's capable of and a very weak matchup against most other horde lists and several melee lists, and flyers.
Sisters don't do hammer and anvil well. With T3 and a 3+6++, you'll be picking up squads of 10 at a time. Against melee armies it'll be more. It's entirely possible for you to lose 50+ sisters in a turn. A popular build is to use 3-5 blood angels characters and a large squad of deathcompany to deepstrike and 3d6 charge with a reroll into enemy line. Each character will kill a squad of 10 battle sisters in a single round of combat and the large death company unit could kill anywhere from 20-40 depending on strategems, ranges, and how many SoB are available to kill. You'll basically have concentric circles of sisters to die so that the row behind them has a shot to fire back. But you have to be careful because the enemy can consolidate 3" so they have to be perfectly spaced apart
Sisters only method of staying at arms length in 8th is to bubble wrap sacrifice units around you. Blood angels will be in combat first turn every game. Tyranids will be in combat first turn every game. Chaos will be in combat first turn every game. You can't kite the enemy, SoB are not fast enough, you have to absorb them and counter attack and you'll be losing sisters by the handful as you do it. Meltas and combis are expensive and short range. If you're going up against a shooting army they'll be useless, you'll never get close enough. If you're against a melee army you'll get to fire them roughly once per squad. Could be worth, but personally stormbolters would be better. Imagifiers are fine in this set-up but keep in mind that you could have 4 battle sisters with 2 stormbolters for the same price and that imagifiers can't be relied on to buff you when you want them to. Also, what actions you can take get less and less valuable as time goes on. Double shooting is great, double combat with WS 4+ and S3 is not.
You'll almost never erode armies as SoB. Your attrition rate is much, MUCH higher than other armies, you are racing against a clock to kill them(or cap enough objectives) before they kill you. Having large numbers of BSS means you have more time than other builds but it doesn't mean you'll be able to out attrition many armies. A deathguard army for example, is literally impossible to beat for horde sisters. One unit of poxwalkers can kill everything(due to shenanigans). Most games you'll be trying to use your large foot print to grab as many objective points as possible, and shearing off their objective camping infantry, while trying to avoid being tabled.
Seraphim can NEVER be deepstruck, infernus pistols are a 6" range and hand-flamers are 8" you have to land 9" away. You start seraphim on the table and AoF them around with Celestine. Big groups of seraphim supported by celestine are good, but they don't synergize well with the rest of a horde list. Rynner's lists are about as good as seraphim blobs get.
Your canoness are reroll auras. What you're suggesting is suiciding them into an open field to get a 2+ AoF, which is nowhere near as valuable. They don't have the movement, range, output, or resilence to lone wolf. The second they're the closest model to the enemy they're going to die. Keep them behind for the reroll aura and sacrifice them when you need to, a single AoF at the cost of command points you will desperately need isn't as valuable as their consistent buffs.
The only low model count armies are space marines who will be using flyers you won't be able to hurt, and custodes, who are 2+4++, T5, and can get into combat from deepstrike. You won't be able to kill them, you'll be trying to beat them on objectives, which is definitely possible to do.
You understand that you payed NINE-HUNDRED points to strip those 7 wounds off right? 900? With 2 zeros? Off of a 70pt tank? Guard hordes can kill 2-4 rhinos per turn for a similar points investment at longer ranges and orkz and demons can kill 4-6(badly deployed) rhino chassis per turn, regardless of range. 7 wounds off a rhino is pathetically little damage. You'll wind up winning games off of early objective control, and killing their objective campers most of the time.
Ork boyz and imperial guardsman cost 4ppm. You could bring 250 of them in a 1200pt game. Players CHOOSE not to bring that many models, it's not that they can't or even that they're not good. They're just a pain to play. When conscripts were big you'd see 3+ blocks of 50 in most imperium lists.
People have done horde sisters before and had some success. It is workable, it's just not as good as other builds we have available to us. Rynner's Seraphim bricks are probably the best thing we have and the standard mech-dominions list are better against most meta armies than our hordes. I appreciate that you want to 'forge your own path' so to speak, but you're not inventing fire here.
BBAP wrote: It's a trickle, not a tidal wave - you're not trying to wash away huge chunks of an opposing army in a single phase like Orks do, but rather erode it over a period of time.
I can't agree with this... most of what you've said fits somewhere on the casual to competitive scale in terms of where it might have merit, under which circumstances it might play well, etc. I've messed around with foot-blob Sisters and it isn't a bad approach. But the idea the Sisters can grind down an enemy over several turns-- in my experience-- isn't ever true. In most of my winning games, I strike decisive blows in turn 1 and turn 2 and spend the rest of the game avoiding retaliation from strong centerpiece units I can't go toe to toe with. Seraphim and Dominions target the opponent's range and mobility up front, and from then on it's board control, objective scoring, and casualty mitigation.
This ^ is 100% correct.
Even if you spam out the 150-175 bodies you could fit into a 2000pt list you won't be grinding anyone off, you'll be sitting on objectives praying the game ends on turn 5.
While I agree that straight horde sisters is probably not great, some of the misinformation here about other hordes is appalling. Ork boys are 6 points per model, as such are less durable than sisters point for point. Pox Walkers are 6 points per model. Cultists are 4 points per model.
900 points for ork Boyz is 150 ork Boyz against Rhinos in the off chance that all 150 get to swing (they won't) that is 600 attacks, 400 hits, 133 wounds, 44 unsaved wounds, so kills about 4 Rhinos, but this will never happen.
I think if you are going "horde" sisters you are probably looking at 100 models total in the army with many being heavy bolter retributors, and lots of seraphim with inferno pistols. All 5 sister squads to avoid morale issues.
Really the largest issue is that few horde armies win the game because of the horde (orks, pox walkers are really it) but instead because of what the horde is protecting that does the real damage. Sisters lack the killing power/super durability from a horde aspect, to be a horde wins the game army, and the ranged shooting to be a screening force.
If I were using horde foot sisters (no seraphim) I think it would probably look something like
Brigade.+ outrider + Spear head
5x canonness
6x 5 battle sisters
4x imagifier
8 x 5 dominions with Storm bolters
11x 5 retributors with 4 heavy bolters
It is definitely lacking but you have 134 3+ save models, you have a screen that can push foreword with the dominions, who can put out 160 bolter shots, and then you have 132 heavy bolter shots + probably 3 squads getting to shoot a second time, so about 147 heavy bolter shots. Honestly it still isn't that impressive because no anti-high toughness no AP, no close combat.
MacPhail wrote: I misled you... I just need four heavy bolters. I bought some bits off Shapeways to convert one of the two 4x squads of heavy flamers I had run during 7th, but the scale wasn't a good match. I might need to add a Superior given how much MSUing I'm doing, but that's just a bolter Sister in a pinch.
I used Chaos Space Marine HB for more of my conversions and they worked great. I can give you pics if you want.
ERJAK wrote: You'll basically have concentric circles of sisters to die so that the row behind them has a shot to fire back. But you have to be careful because the enemy can consolidate 3" so they have to be perfectly spaced apart... Sisters only method of staying at arms length in 8th is to bubble wrap sacrifice units around you.
This is me in four out of five games-- I face lots of Blood Angels, Tyranids, and Chaos. Three layers of expendable and/or collapsing fronts. The outer shell is Dominions pushed forward pregame and Seraphim launched by Imagifier catapult turn 1. That crowds my enemy's DS options and stalls his advance. The second layer is a wall o' stormbolters looking to micromanage RF range and maximize reroll auras while staying out of harm's way as long as possible. The juicy nugget at the center of my backfield is HB Retributers with Canoness and Imagifiers. My new mech list will call for something different once I get these Repressors built, but that's the core Sisters tactic AFAIK.
MacPhail wrote: I misled you... I just need four heavy bolters. I bought some bits off Shapeways to convert one of the two 4x squads of heavy flamers I had run during 7th, but the scale wasn't a good match. I might need to add a Superior given how much MSUing I'm doing, but that's just a bolter Sister in a pinch.
I used Chaos Space Marine HB for more of my conversions and they worked great. I can give you pics if you want.
Are you able to source those bits reliably online? I'd love a tip to a source, and sure, pics are always appreciated!
Breng77 wrote: While I agree that straight horde sisters is probably not great, some of the misinformation here about other hordes is appalling. Ork boys are 6 points per model, as such are less durable than sisters point for point. Pox Walkers are 6 points per model. Cultists are 4 points per model.
900 points for ork Boyz is 150 ork Boyz against Rhinos in the off chance that all 150 get to swing (they won't) that is 600 attacks, 400 hits, 133 wounds, 44 unsaved wounds, so kills about 4 Rhinos, but this will never happen.
I think if you are going "horde" sisters you are probably looking at 100 models total in the army with many being heavy bolter retributors, and lots of seraphim with inferno pistols. All 5 sister squads to avoid morale issues.
Really the largest issue is that few horde armies win the game because of the horde (orks, pox walkers are really it) but instead because of what the horde is protecting that does the real damage. Sisters lack the killing power/super durability from a horde aspect, to be a horde wins the game army, and the ranged shooting to be a screening force.
If I were using horde foot sisters (no seraphim) I think it would probably look something like Brigade.+ outrider + Spear head 5x canonness 6x 5 battle sisters 4x imagifier 8 x 5 dominions with Storm bolters 11x 5 retributors with 4 heavy bolters
It is definitely lacking but you have 134 3+ save models, you have a screen that can push foreword with the dominions, who can put out 160 bolter shots, and then you have 132 heavy bolter shots + probably 3 squads getting to shoot a second time, so about 147 heavy bolter shots. Honestly it still isn't that impressive because no anti-high toughness no AP, no close combat.
My bad on the ork cost, but the poxwalkers were close enough and the cultists were actually cheaper, so it sort of evens out.
It also doesn't actually affect the point I was trying to make either.
And keep in mind that 900pts of sisters won't get to shoot, you'll likely lose close to half on your first turn and they likely won't all be able to close down the distance necessary to hit the same target. It was an ideal vs ideal scenarios and SoB do roughly 1/6th of the damage, 1/3rd in rapid fire range, probably back down to 1/4th if you included the Orkz shooting and the SoB's combat. I also should have emphasized that many of the horde armies that are more efficient than SoB, but don't have tricks like chaos and guard do, still aren't great.
You're also missing out the relatively low range of the list. Bolters, even stormbolters, really struggle at 24 inches and while 36" on heavy bolters is nice, it's far from impressive for 40k. Plenty of common competitive options will be able to single out the rets(the ever popular mortar teams for example) and the rest of the army is very manageable at that point. (sidebar, Just doing quick maths, you're 70pts over. You'd have to drop an imagifier and 15 stormbolters.)
I think the major issue we are all missing in this horde discussion is this - does your horde list take advantage of one of the few things that keeps Sisters semi top tier? Is your list fast? Sisters are one of the fastest armies out there. Most games are won in movement, if your not taking advantage of Sister's speed you should reconsider your list.
MacPhail wrote: I'd love to get some Seraphim back in the list. An attempt with 3rd party bits was a bust... might just have to shell out $50 for a GW squad.
I've got some bad news... They definitely aren't $50 a squad.
Well, 4 at $14 each is $56, and I can ship for free to my local GW, but they're out of stock again...
I posted a page or so ago that I had picked up a couple of Repressor conversions and now I'm listbuilding around them. The mechanized infantry core of both lists is the same: mount up 4x melta Doms and 4x stormbolter BSS. I'm down to two lists at 2k, and here's the question: do I trade away a Penitent Engine, an Imagifier, and 3 CP in exchange for 2 Inferno Seraphim squads and an extra Canoness... basically, do I run a Brigade or two Battalions? I am loving Seraphim lately, and in a pure Sisters list I think I can spare the CP, but y'all can talk me out of it...
Alright, I've gotten another game in with my foot-sloggers (against a sawn-off 1250pt Flyrant spam netlist). We called the game (ITC Champion Mission 1) on turn 4 - I had a lead on the Primary and Secondary, but it was pretty slim so we called it a draw. We'd both taken a pasting by that point so it might've gone either way, although I think I had just enough crap on the table to win it.
I've had a few more thoughts:
-- There's a pretty dire lack of mortal wounds in the army. I swear my opponent passed 75% of his 4++ Flyrant saves (he passed 6 saves in a single phase), and there's no way to force wounds past that nonsense. That's a problem, especially if your opponent has a load of psykers Smiting every turn.
-- The psyker thing leads me to point #2 - Sisters psychic defence is not good. Shield of Faith is poopoo and the Strat is dodgy - it works well enough, but the moment you use it your opponent is free to target your Characters in the knowledge you won't get any free AoFs out of it. Problem is, if you don't use it you get Smitten from every angle and Celestine has to fight last forever. Ho hum.
-- Sisters can kill things. Even despite the crazy non-statistical rolling I managed to kill two Flyrants, bring another one down to 2 wounds, RFP a Mawloc the turn it arrived, and bring a second Mawloc down to its last wound (then charge it with a Hospitaller because YOLO). Granted it was mostly Meltaguns, Eviscerators and Celestine doing the wounding of the big bugs, but bolters did a sizeable minority of the work too. Goes without saying the trash was rinsed off the table as soon as it arrived.
-- I see what people are saying about Morale now too. I didn't fail a single test despite taking quite a few - but that was due to luck.
Someone further up mentioned MSU - that'd solve the problem of Morale and would allow more firepower. I might try that if I can scare up some more models.
ERJAK wrote: People have done horde sisters before and had some success. It is workable, it's just not as good as other builds we have available to us. Rynner's Seraphim bricks are probably the best thing we have and the standard mech-dominions list are better against most meta armies than our hordes. I appreciate that you want to 'forge your own path' so to speak, but you're not inventing fire here.
It's not about forging my own path, it's trying to find an efficient and effective way to play an all-Sisters army. As far as I can see the mech lists have many of the same issues as footsloggers do, except they compound some of them by having most of your firepower (i.e. your Sisters) stuck in boxes for a turn or two unable to do anything - and then, when you do get them out, you have less Sisters than you'd have if you weren't paying for tanks. Repressors get around this with their firing ports, but they come with a hefty points cost which still means less Sisters on the table. I'm also seeing a lot of people saying they need bubblewrap for their mech armies, which I can understand since tanks now engage in fisticuffs apparently - but if you're doing that then surely it'd be more efficient to just throw an AM Battalion in your army and let the Infantry Squads take the charges for you? Why bother paying for Sisters to sit in front of the hulls and die? Makes sense in a footslogging horde army because the Sisters are there anyway, but why do it in a mech list?
It's not about forging my own path, it's trying to find an efficient and effective way to play an all-Sisters army. As far as I can see the mech lists have many of the same issues as footsloggers do, except they compound some of them by having most of your firepower (i.e. your Sisters) stuck in boxes for a turn or two unable to do anything - and then, when you do get them out, you have less Sisters than you'd have if you weren't paying for tanks. Repressors get around this with their firing ports, but they come with a hefty points cost which still means less Sisters on the table. I'm also seeing a lot of people saying they need bubblewrap for their mech armies, which I can understand since tanks now engage in fisticuffs apparently - but if you're doing that then surely it'd be more efficient to just throw an AM Battalion in your army and let the Infantry Squads take the charges for you? Why bother paying for Sisters to sit in front of the hulls and die? Makes sense in a footslogging horde army because the Sisters are there anyway, but why do it in a mech list?
(side bar: why wouldn't you get any free aofs out of characters dying in the situation you described? Martyrdom and Purity of faith are different strategems. Were you out of CP?)
Infantry lists need bubblewrap, mech list need screens. It's slightly different in that bubblewrap units tend to be layered one over another to absorb multiple waves of damage. This is what I was getting at the 'concentric circles' thing above. Screens are single layers used to deny first turn deepstriking. It's often more about making them land in a poor position then it is denying the charge. Sisters are great for this because they're cheap enough to be expendable, good enough to still be useful, and just tough enough to resist a turn of your 'million and a half range, don't need line of sight' chaff clear units. Sisters die hilariously fast to dedicated anti-infantry, but the 3+ save buys them time against weapons that would poke deadly holes in a platoon squad. Platoon squads do make for superior bubble wrap in general but in my opinion BSS are better screens.
Sisters lists are also a bit unique in that our vehicles are so incredibly fast that we don't always need to screen the vehicles, the cost of killing an isolated immolator is usually greater than the cost of killing the unit that isolated itself by going after it.
The second bit is a bit of a misunderstanding of how SoB mech lists work. Mech lists are alpha strike lists with an approximately 36" effective first turn threat range(42 for repressors). If your sisters aren't getting out of their tanks, it's not because they're not in range, it's because you've chosen to keep them safe from incidental fire for a turn or used them as bait. Not to mention that you have an average charge range of 34" on immolators which means you can take things like Pask out of the game completely before your opponent can react.
Foot sisters actually suffer from the 'not being able to do anything for the first two turns' problem far more than mech do. Bolters and stormbolters don't do anything significant beyond rapid fire range, melta and flamers are obviously shotgun range weapons and Heavy-bolters are solid but are more about consistent performance than devastating blows.
Also keep in mind that an immolator on average has a 27" effective range and puts out almost the exact same amount of damage as a heavy bolter retributor squad, despite having t7 and double the amount of wounds. More against things like flyers. It's not something to be discounted when talking about 'your firepower'. Think about it like this, an immolator is 103 points, 10 battle sisters with a melta gun is 107, the immolator is faster and tougher, the 10 battle sisters have a bigger footprint and aren't as vulnerable to multiple damage weapons. The immolator kills 2.33 marines from 27" away, the battle sisters kill 2.77 from 18" away. The immolator can transport a second unit both increasing its speed and protecting it, the battle sisters don't contribute much anything to other units.
Equal points of SoB and Immolators/Repressors is largely a wash in terms of raw efficiency, it's what you do with them that makes the difference and the dramatically superior speed of the immolator, along with its transport capacity, allow it do shenanigans that battle sisters can't. You don't miss additional mediocre bodies, almost everything is dead before it even might matter.
This same equation is actually why seraphim are so brutal btw. They have the best of both worlds.
As for your batrep, it's cool that you're able to hold your own thus far, foot horde sisters have some teeth to them and definitely aren't bad, but fair warning: 1. Highly competitive lists, especially net lists, grow quadratically as you add more points. At 2000pts, you'll be sweating more than at 1250, even if you're still doing well, and 2. Different tournament formats reward different builds. ITC is one of the more infantry friendly setups, but something like a modified maelstrom tournament would punish foot sisters relative immobility more.
ERJAK wrote: (side bar: why wouldn't you get any free aofs out of characters dying in the situation you described? Martyrdom and Purity of faith are different strategems. Were you out of CP?)
One CP per phase is the limit, innit?
the battle sisters don't contribute much anything to other units
Here's where we're falling down, I think. The extra BSSquads can't carry units, but they can bubblewrap each other and provide support to one another that Immolators and even Repressors don't - the large footprint means they're able to control a pretty hefty swathe of the mat, and each one is rolling 11 dice at anything 6+24" away, and 20 dice at anything 6+12" away. Three of them sitting around one another give you a pretty solid hold on a table corner, and can hit anything that moves into their fire lanes.
Problems might arise when you're trying to answer a long-range threat to one of your squads, but that's what Seraphim and Celestine and Berserker Canonesses are for.
As for your batrep, it's cool that you're able to hold your own thus far, foot horde sisters have some teeth to them and definitely aren't bad, but fair warning: 1. Highly competitive lists, especially net lists, grow quadratically as you add more points. At 2000pts, you'll be sweating more than at 1250, even if you're still doing well, and 2. Different tournament formats reward different builds. ITC is one of the more infantry friendly setups, but something like a modified maelstrom tournament would punish foot sisters relative immobility more.
On reflection I think a lot of the success I had had to do with the mission we were playing - Seize Ground, basically. The way ITC has it the objectives are all in a box-shaped clump in the mid-board, which meant the Nids player having to walk into my shooting in order to score flags - that perhaps made up for the lack of mobility to an extent, and pushed some of his Flyrants closer than they might've been otherwise. Even still, when they arrived they were whittled down in short order - the big bugs were a tough ask, but the little ones just vanished.
I can definitely see flaws in the build now I've tried it a couple of times, but every build has flaws, and in the case of foot Sisters I'm still not convinced they're fatal. I do need to try the army in more inclement circumstances though.
The suicide Canonesses I'm also quite impressed by. They don't put out a tonne of damage and they're slow, but at the end of the day they're still WS2+ BS2+ models carrying Eviscerators and Meltaguns. If you run that model forward the opponent can either ignore it, in which case it remains a nuisance all game, blocking advances and dealing the odd D3/ D6 damage to stuff, or they can kill it, in which case I get an AoF. Losing the reroll aura is a drag, but that's why you bring two :-D
It is not. One use of each stratagem each phase (so one martyrdom per phase but not one stratagem per phase).
Thanks for clearing that up! Someone lied to me (and in fairness I didn't bother to check).
EDIT: Also, going back to what I said earlier about pushing wounds past invulnerable saves - do Sisters have any way to do that beyond "bring more Meltaguns"? Is there a source of Mortal Wounds native to the army that I haven't seen yet, maybe?
No mortal wounds, though maybe perils from condemnor boltguns (not sure on perils, been a while sunce I tried out condemnors and rarely pay much attention during the psychic phase).
No mortal wounds and no semi reliable deny are our matching Achilles heels in 8th. I've been getting both from Allied Inquisition my last few games, but I really want to run pure Sisters and not suffer that particular hit.
I'm looking for some tactical guidance for running Celestine. I bought the new plastic model because, like what I do with most of my 'new' armies, well I really liked the model. I want to run her in my IG foot list however I've never run sob before. I've read through the acts of faith and had some questions about them. Like The Passion. You have to start out within an inch of an enemy model so I'm guessing you're 'locked' in combat? Who stays locked in combat with Celestine? Can Saintly Blessing apply to Celestine's unit? I don't suppose there are any tactical articles written specifically about her...
1) you keep her close to your infantry squads so she grants them a mostly ineffective 6++ save.
2) More commonly: faith jump her down field and have her wreck face.
Her saintly blessings does apply to her unit although the bonus to shield of faith wont apply to her as shes has a better 4++ save anyways. Yo ull be using her auto faith from the saintly blessing too as it sounds like shes your only Sisters unit, so the army wide 2+ faith is useless to her.
Passion youll be using when shes locked in combat. Youll find people will be happy to keep her in combat with chump blobs to slow her down. That or its a unit your opponent is confident will take her down. She can be killy- but this varies from person to person (ive found her performance to be average to below average due to my cursed dice rolls).
She has the Fly keyword so she can jump out of combat and still fire, but she cant charge again. Whether using Hand of the Emperor to get her out of combat before movement phase allows her to charge again, i dont know and have been meaning to ask.
Also remember she is a character so depending on the positioning of the rest of your force they may not be able to just fall back and unload on her with everything, so keeping her locked up with a less desirable target might be worth while for your opponent. As often as not I find my self moving twice, or healing, occasionally shooting twice.
Anyone that can mitigate her relatively high number of Attacks and the D2 on her sword stands a reasonable chance of grinding her down. As an example, Hive Tyrants have T7, a 4++, and 12 Wounds, which means she's wounding on a 4+, half of the wounds she scores will bounce off the invul, and she needs to push at least three ouchies past all that to begin wearing the Tyrant down. If your opponent is spamming Hive Tyrants they could probably use one solely to chase Celestine around without denting their army's effectiveness too much, and still be at a net gain because keeping her locked with the Tyrant or Falling Back constantly prevents her tearing through the RIppers and Mawlocs (which she will do easily, and will do a tad faster if your bring both Geminae, which you should).
Giantwalkingchair wrote: She has the Fly keyword so she can jump out of combat and still fire, but she cant charge again. Whether using Hand of the Emperor to get her out of combat before movement phase allows her to charge again, i dont know and have been meaning to ask.
I've been playing this as a "no". IIRC the BRB states models can't do [x] "later that turn" if they Fall Back or Advance - that's non-specific, so the restrictions apply regardless of whether you performed these actions in the Movement phase as normal or at some time prior to it (i.e. at the start of the turn when AoFs take place).
So yeah, no AoFing out of combat and charging back in. Unless there's something in the FAQ or elsewhere that contradicts this, and I don't think there is.
Martyrdom offers an occasional workaround for this when it triggers on your opponent's turn, but otherwise that's the way it should go. I do occasionally fall her back on my turn, either when she's out matched or I have arranged 8 melta shots or 40 storm bolter shots to take her place...
MacPhail wrote: Martyrdom offers an occasional workaround for this when it triggers on your opponent's turn, but otherwise that's the way it should go. I do occasionally fall her back on my turn, either when she's out matched or I have arranged 8 melta shots or 40 storm bolter shots to take her place...
can’t you still fall back and then heroically intervene within three inches?
MacPhail wrote: Martyrdom offers an occasional workaround for this when it triggers on your opponent's turn, but otherwise that's the way it should go. I do occasionally fall her back on my turn, either when she's out matched or I have arranged 8 melta shots or 40 storm bolter shots to take her place...
can’t you still fall back and then heroically intervene within three inches?
Heroic Intervention is only on your opponent's turn.
MacPhail wrote: Martyrdom offers an occasional workaround for this when it triggers on your opponent's turn, but otherwise that's the way it should go. I do occasionally fall her back on my turn, either when she's out matched or I have arranged 8 melta shots or 40 storm bolter shots to take her place...
can’t you still fall back and then heroically intervene within three inches?
Heroic Intervention is only on your opponent's turn.
MacPhail wrote: Martyrdom offers an occasional workaround for this when it triggers on your opponent's turn, but otherwise that's the way it should go. I do occasionally fall her back on my turn, either when she's out matched or I have arranged 8 melta shots or 40 storm bolter shots to take her place...
can’t you still fall back and then heroically intervene within three inches?
Heroic Intervention is only on your opponent's turn.
Yeah you're right I had a lapse in thought
But always try to keep Celestine within 3 inches of an enemy unit at all times, so if any unit in your entire army gets assaulted, she can HI and pile in.
Anyone that can mitigate her relatively high number of Attacks and the D2 on her sword stands a reasonable chance of grinding her down. As an example, Hive Tyrants have T7, a 4++, and 12 Wounds, which means she's wounding on a 4+, half of the wounds she scores will bounce off the invul, and she needs to push at least three ouchies past all that to begin wearing the Tyrant down. If your opponent is spamming Hive Tyrants they could probably use one solely to chase Celestine around without denting their army's effectiveness too much, and still be at a net gain because keeping her locked with the Tyrant or Falling Back constantly prevents her tearing through the RIppers and Mawlocs (which she will do easily, and will do a tad faster if your bring both Geminae, which you should).
Giantwalkingchair wrote: She has the Fly keyword so she can jump out of combat and still fire, but she cant charge again. Whether using Hand of the Emperor to get her out of combat before movement phase allows her to charge again, i dont know and have been meaning to ask.
I've been playing this as a "no". IIRC the BRB states models can't do [x] "later that turn" if they Fall Back or Advance - that's non-specific, so the restrictions apply regardless of whether you performed these actions in the Movement phase as normal or at some time prior to it (i.e. at the start of the turn when AoFs take place).
So yeah, no AoFing out of combat and charging back in. Unless there's something in the FAQ or elsewhere that contradicts this, and I don't think there is.
You're absolutely correct on the rule there.
As for the hive tyrant, I'd say that trade works out about 50/50. A winged dakka tyrant is what...230pts? And has a snowballs chance of killing Celestine and Celestine will kill it in two full battle rounds if you AoF both times(even without the geminii) Obviously it's something you should be avoiding because it can just drop out of combat and waste your infantry whenever it wants, but it wouldn't be the end of the world.
Righto so if no AoF move out with bss and shooting them at the assaulting squad either?
So really the only ones to benefit from AoF move out of combat are Seraphim and celestine as they can still shoot due to Fly.
One last one to clarify for me. AoF move with advance. Move again without advance, can shoot still? Can shoot with assault weapons for sure, what about other weapons? They affected by the AoF move advance?
Probably silly questions but ive pulled these a couple of times in games and i want to make sure im not cheating anyone and correct myself if i am.
All the language around the constraints imposed by Advancing refers to the turn, not the phase. Also, AoFs are worded "as if it were the ____ phase" so there's nothing special about Advancing during a start of turn AoF. You Advanced, so penalties apply.
ERJAK wrote: As for the hive tyrant, I'd say that trade works out about 50/50.
That's not how I read it. As a match-up Celestine vs netlist Flyrant is pretty even, hence both models have better targets in the opposing army - but while the Nids player will have 3+ Flyrants, the Sisters player only has one Celestine. Using one Flyrant to keep her busy prevents her pulping juicier targets like Monsters with no invul or ObSec infantry, and still leaves you a few free to shoot up the rest of the Sisters army.
A winged dakka tyrant is what...230pts? And has a snowballs chance of killing Celestine and Celestine will kill it in two full battle rounds if you AoF both times(even without the geminii) Obviously it's something you should be avoiding because it can just drop out of combat and waste your infantry whenever it wants, but it wouldn't be the end of the world.
The netlist Flyrant is significantly cheaper than Celestine And Friends, and I think it's cheaper than Celestine would be alone (190pts or so, IIRC). Statistically she's unlikely to take one out quickly, and that's certainly my experience of the exchange.
As a combat it's pretty even, all things considered, perhaps with an advantage for the Flyrant. The Flyrant has a lot of sticks to wave at Celestine - at 7+ wounds it's hitting and wounding on 2+ (with RRTW due to Rending Claws) with D3 Damage attacks, and Toxin Sacs mean any 6s to wound are dealing +1 damage. With the Gertrudes up Celestine has a sump for these wounds, but once they're gone Celestine, with her 2+/4+ hit/wound and only 7 wounds to spare, can start to get overwhelmed quite quickly. That's a problem, because the Flyrant has little trouble killing off the Fan Club. It also has The Horror, which forces Celestine to swing last, and Smite, which I'm told can be used in CC and deals Mortal Wounds. You *can* block one of the powers, but it'll cost you a Strat, and means you can't block subsequent psychic powers in the same turn (which may be another net win for the Nids player depending on what else he's doing).
There may be situations where a Sisters player would want Celestine to duel a Flyrant, but in most cases it seems like a bad idea to me.
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Resipsa131 wrote: Default FHT is 184 points rending claws are free, devs are 14 points, and the tail is 27 points. FHT are pretty undercosted
The tail isn't really necessary IMHO - Toxin Sacs, Rending Claws and 2 Devs give you a pretty fearsome beast. They are a tad underpriced (compare and contrast Daemon Princes, which do far less but cost about the same) but fearsome as they are I'm not sure it's a game-breaker.
ERJAK wrote: As for the hive tyrant, I'd say that trade works out about 50/50.
That's not how I read it. As a match-up Celestine vs netlist Flyrant is pretty even, hence both models have better targets in the opposing army - but while the Nids player will have 3+ Flyrants, the Sisters player only has one Celestine. Using one Flyrant to keep her busy prevents her pulping juicier targets like Monsters with no invul or ObSec infantry, and still leaves you a few free to shoot up the rest of the Sisters army.
A winged dakka tyrant is what...230pts? And has a snowballs chance of killing Celestine and Celestine will kill it in two full battle rounds if you AoF both times(even without the geminii) Obviously it's something you should be avoiding because it can just drop out of combat and waste your infantry whenever it wants, but it wouldn't be the end of the world.
The netlist Flyrant is significantly cheaper than Celestine And Friends, and I think it's cheaper than Celestine would be alone (190pts or so, IIRC). Statistically she's unlikely to take one out quickly, and that's certainly my experience of the exchange.
As a combat it's pretty even, all things considered, perhaps with an advantage for the Flyrant. The Flyrant has a lot of sticks to wave at Celestine - at 7+ wounds it's hitting and wounding on 2+ (with RRTW due to Rending Claws) with D3 Damage attacks, and Toxin Sacs mean any 6s to wound are dealing +1 damage. With the Gertrudes up Celestine has a sump for these wounds, but once they're gone Celestine, with her 2+/4+ hit/wound and only 7 wounds to spare, can start to get overwhelmed quite quickly. That's a problem, because the Flyrant has little trouble killing off the Fan Club. It also has The Horror, which forces Celestine to swing last, and Smite, which I'm told can be used in CC and deals Mortal Wounds. You *can* block one of the powers, but it'll cost you a Strat, and means you can't block subsequent psychic powers in the same turn (which may be another net win for the Nids player depending on what else he's doing).
There may be situations where a Sisters player would want Celestine to duel a Flyrant, but in most cases it seems like a bad idea to me.
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Resipsa131 wrote: Default FHT is 184 points rending claws are free, devs are 14 points, and the tail is 27 points. FHT are pretty undercosted
The tail isn't really necessary IMHO - Toxin Sacs, Rending Claws and 2 Devs give you a pretty fearsome beast. They are a tad underpriced (compare and contrast Daemon Princes, which do far less but cost about the same) but fearsome as they are I'm not sure it's a game-breaker.
The thing you missed is that the Flyrant also aren't usually going to have toxin sacs and they only have 4 attacks. Even hitting on 2s wounding on 2s rerolling they'll only kill 1 gemini per combat phase on average.
Netlist Flyrant lists don't have 3+ flyrants, they have 6+ flyrants. The average Netlist flyrant list is 6-7 flyrants, 3-5 Mawlocs, Bunch of spores(which are absolutely awful for celestine to deal with), bunch of rippers, which celestine can't go solo roam after because the mucolid spores and smite will do enough mortal wounds to pulp her pretty much per turn, which means they don't have juicier targets. If you kill every troop and spore in the army without dying, you'll be maybe 50pts in the black. That's how little they spend on not killing you. Mawlocs are largely irrelevant (3-5 don't have enough wounds put together to survive being that close to sisters with no invul)after they pop up and there just isn't anything else in the list.
Literally every single unit in the army that has any kind of rend is going to killing hive tyrants, except for the turn the mawlocs pop up. The bolters and stormbolters are going to be going after the rippers and mucolids and basically all you'll be doing is praying to last longer than them. Celestine really has nowhere else to go but after the most isolated flyrant, a mawloc, or face first into a hilarious barrage of mortal wounds.
That said, it's more efficient for her to be killing Mawlocs, but there will only be 1-2 turns of that. They die pretty quick. And you'll probably be out of units to...be alive with around turn 3 unless you're really mulching through.
Just for completeness sake, I'm looking at winning Nids list from 2 different GTs and Adepticon and they're all almost exactly the same. The only change you ever see is doing 6 flyrants for a biovore and more rippers or 5 flyrants for a several biovores and more rippers.
ERJAK wrote: The thing you missed is that the Flyrant also aren't usually going to have toxin sacs and they only have 4 attacks. Even hitting on 2s wounding on 2s rerolling they'll only kill 1 gemini per combat phase on average.
They have 5 attacks - 4 with the Monstrous melee weapons and one with the Prehensile Tail. The 2x Monstrous Scything Talons aren't mega-impressive, but can be swapped for Monstrous Rending Claws (which *are* impressive) for free - which is silly, because RRTW should not be free for a WS2+ AP-3 S6 spammable model. Toxin Sacs cost about 3pts (maybe 4, I can't recall off-hand) - they only function on a wound roll of 6, but your Flyrant is WS2+ (lots of hits) and has RRTW (extra chances to fish up a 6, more economical against T4+ than T3 but still has a chance to change 1s into 6s), so it's a reasonable investment.
On top of that each of those attacks deals D3 damage. The attacks listed on the Flyrant's profile don't give a proper estimation of how much damage these things can do against multi-wound characters - without Toxin Sacs every failed save has a 2 in 3 shot of killing a Geminae outright, and with the Sacs it's very slightly higher. That 4++ is a big roll, and you're going to be rolling it a lot given the Flyrant is WS2+ S6 with RRTW. Even supposing you chip 11 wounds off the thing it never goes below WS4+ S6 with RRTW... they really are very nasty.
Then there's the Leviathan 6+++ and Catalyst. Don't get me started on that nonsense.
Netlist Flyrant lists don't have 3+ flyrants, they have 6+ flyrants.
At 2000pts they do - but my point stands firmer the more Flyrants you put on the table. I'm unlikely to miss one Flyrant out of 3, and I'm certainly not going to miss 1 out of 7, especially not if it's going to trap a model as nasty and versatile as Celestine.
The average Netlist flyrant list is 6-7 flyrants, 3-5 Mawlocs, Bunch of spores(which are absolutely awful for celestine to deal with), bunch of rippers, which celestine can't go solo roam after because the mucolid spores and smite will do enough mortal wounds to pulp her pretty much per turn, which means they don't have juicier targets. If you kill every troop and spore in the army without dying, you'll be maybe 50pts in the black. That's how little they spend on not killing you. Mawlocs are largely irrelevant (3-5 don't have enough wounds put together to survive being that close to sisters with no invul)after they pop up and there just isn't anything else in the list.
Mucolids can't charge on the turn they arrive - they have to drop more than 12" away from everything and can't move once they land. By contrast, Celestine And Friends can murder a min-squad of Ripper bases in a single turn and be gone before the fat bloaters get anywhere near them.
Personally though I wouldn't be using Mucolids to threaten Celestine. I'd rather save them for stuff that's not going to get back up on a 2+.
I'm not keen on this idea of units "making their points back" either. The effect dead models have on your opponent's ability to win the game is far more important than how much of a unit's cost I "recoup" in killing them. Mucolids are a good example, ironically enough - sitting them in cover 11" from a flag might discourage people from trying to cap it. They might not kill anything, or indeed even move, so they haven't "made their points back", and if the opponent kills them you're left "in the red" - but they likely took much more than they cost in order to remove them from play, so that's okay by me.
Literally every single unit in the army that has any kind of rend is going to killing hive tyrants
This is one of the other reasons you don't want Flyrants locked in CC with Celestine (unless you're a Nids player) - because if they are, you can't Melta them, and you have far more high-AP shooting attacks than you do melee attacks.
except for the turn the mawlocs pop up. The bolters and stormbolters are going to be going after the rippers and mucolids and basically all you'll be doing is praying to last longer than them. Celestine really has nowhere else to go but after the most isolated flyrant, a mawloc, or face first into a hilarious barrage of mortal wounds.
Maybe the corner where all the Mucolids have arrived is a bad place to be - but if you've convinced your opponent to drop a bunch of his 3"-ass Mucolids in a corner in order to protect some Rippers then I'd call that a win, right? If he expends them all to try and stop Celestine tearing his ObSec a new one, and she gets back up on a 2+... also win, I think.
That said, it's more efficient for her to be killing Mawlocs, but there will only be 1-2 turns of that. They die pretty quick. And you'll probably be out of units to...be alive with around turn 3 unless you're really mulching through.
Mawlocs do die pretty quick to everything Sisters bring to the table - Flyrants, on the other hand, don't die quickly at all. Your shooting is going to be under an enormous amount of pressure just with trying to fend off the Flyrants - why ask them to kill the trash as well? Just let Celestine do it, instead of having her duel a Flyrant for 3 turns and potentially lose to it.
Just for completeness sake, I'm looking at winning Nids list from 2 different GTs and Adepticon and they're all almost exactly the same. The only change you ever see is doing 6 flyrants for a biovore and more rippers or 5 flyrants for a several biovores and more rippers.
The "Matt Root Netlist Experience" includes Toxin Sacs and Monstrous Rending Claws everywhere. One of his Flyrants has some kind of relic too (the dude I played had a Norn Crown, which seems like an immense waste of time in a Flyrant spam army, but hey). Other than that... yeah. In lists with Biovorse then Celestine is probably going to want to be killing Biovores as well as Mawlocs - but in no case can I ever see it being a good idea to have her fighting Flyrants.
deviantduck wrote: Well my list just got blasted in the pooper. I can only take 3 of my 6 dominions and I can't take my 2 xiphons without an HQ and troop tax.
How about you guys?
My mono-Sororitas foot brigade is in exactly the same place, FWIW. But I feel your pain.
deviantduck wrote: Well my list just got blasted in the pooper. I can only take 3 of my 6 dominions and I can't take my 2 xiphons without an HQ and troop tax.
How about you guys?
My mono-Sororitas foot brigade is in exactly the same place, FWIW. But I feel your pain.
So while my xiphons were in the mail they went up 40 pts a piece, and while i'm in the middle of painting them they now have a detachment tax.
No changes to any of my SoB lists I've been working on. The CP boosts for brigades/battalions is nice.
My Dark Eldar lists need a bit of work though due to the deep strike/first turn changes though.
The hit to soup lists I imagine is hard for some players, but probably the best move for the overall health of the game. I was thinking about adding inquisitors/SoS/Assassin's to future SoB lists though to get that nostalgic WitchHunter codex feel, so might be rethinking all that.
I was already running a Brigade and an Outrider, so my list doesn't change much. I'll end up swapping one of the Dominion squads for a BSS.
Going from 7 CP to 9 is a nice bump.
Creeping Dementia wrote: The hit to soup lists I imagine is hard for some players, but probably the best move for the overall health of the game. I was thinking about adding inquisitors/SoS/Assassin's to future SoB lists though to get that nostalgic WitchHunter codex feel, so might be rethinking all that.
No need to re-think it, a Battalion of Sisters plus a Vanguard of SoS plus a Supreme Command of Inquisition is still a legal battle-forged army. I play Sisters + Militarum Tempestus + Inquisition and none of my lists need to change due to this errata. You can still mix-and-match factions, they just have to each be in their own Detachment.
Amishprn86 wrote: RIP my SOB list, 6 HB Ret and 6 SB Doms as my normal, i literally just bought plastic SoS models to convert for it too.
Literally just going to shelve them for now.
Why shelve them? Just go to a Brigade. Brigades are sexy now.
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Anpu-adom wrote: I was already running a Brigade and an Outrider, so my list doesn't change much. I'll end up swapping one of the Dominion squads for a BSS.
Going from 7 CP to 9 is a nice bump.
You mean Battalion and Outrider? I was trying to figure out how you got the points for a Brig and Out.
deviantduck wrote: Well my list just got blasted in the pooper. I can only take 3 of my 6 dominions and I can't take my 2 xiphons without an HQ and troop tax.
How about you guys?
My mono-Sororitas foot brigade is in exactly the same place, FWIW. But I feel your pain.
So while my xiphons were in the mail they went up 40 pts a piece, and while i'm in the middle of painting them they now have a detachment tax.
pretre wrote: Why shelve them? Just go to a Brigade. Brigades are sexy now.
Because you can no longer have more than 3 Retributor or 3 Dominion squads in a single army list. At 2000 points you are limited to 3 copies of a datasheet if it isn't Troops or Dedicated Transport. This unfortunately does hit sisters fairly hard, as we don't have nearly as many options per slot as most other armies.
Petre,
Like the new thumbnail.
Yeah, sorry. I'm at work and trying to remember the right names for the things. Battalion and Outrider are the right terms.
pretre wrote: Get another one and field an Air wing.
I thought about it. I thought "alright, I finally have an excuse to buy an Arvus Lighter." But, alas, it's IG, not SM... As is my ASF. and 3x Xiphons at 720 pts is a great deal! Sign me up.
I think I can squeeze the rest of my sisters into 1 detachment and take 2 at -1 CP each, but that's brutal.
I'm a bit annoyed that I typed out all that asparagus about Flyrant spam armies on the last page and it's all moot now. On the upside, Flyrant spam armies are no longer an issue (although I still think Celestine trades badly with Flyrants).
ERJAK wrote: The thing you missed is that the Flyrant also aren't usually going to have toxin sacs and they only have 4 attacks. Even hitting on 2s wounding on 2s rerolling they'll only kill 1 gemini per combat phase on average.
They have 5 attacks - 4 with the Monstrous melee weapons and one with the Prehensile Tail. The 2x Monstrous Scything Talons aren't mega-impressive, but can be swapped for Monstrous Rending Claws (which *are* impressive) for free - which is silly, because RRTW should not be free for a WS2+ AP-3 S6 spammable model. Toxin Sacs cost about 3pts (maybe 4, I can't recall off-hand) - they only function on a wound roll of 6, but your Flyrant is WS2+ (lots of hits) and has RRTW (extra chances to fish up a 6, more economical against T4+ than T3 but still has a chance to change 1s into 6s), so it's a reasonable investment.
On top of that each of those attacks deals D3 damage. The attacks listed on the Flyrant's profile don't give a proper estimation of how much damage these things can do against multi-wound characters - without Toxin Sacs every failed save has a 2 in 3 shot of killing a Geminae outright, and with the Sacs it's very slightly higher. That 4++ is a big roll, and you're going to be rolling it a lot given the Flyrant is WS2+ S6 with RRTW. Even supposing you chip 11 wounds off the thing it never goes below WS4+ S6 with RRTW... they really are very nasty.
Then there's the Leviathan 6+++ and Catalyst. Don't get me started on that nonsense.
Netlist Flyrant lists don't have 3+ flyrants, they have 6+ flyrants.
At 2000pts they do - but my point stands firmer the more Flyrants you put on the table. I'm unlikely to miss one Flyrant out of 3, and I'm certainly not going to miss 1 out of 7, especially not if it's going to trap a model as nasty and versatile as Celestine.
The average Netlist flyrant list is 6-7 flyrants, 3-5 Mawlocs, Bunch of spores(which are absolutely awful for celestine to deal with), bunch of rippers, which celestine can't go solo roam after because the mucolid spores and smite will do enough mortal wounds to pulp her pretty much per turn, which means they don't have juicier targets. If you kill every troop and spore in the army without dying, you'll be maybe 50pts in the black. That's how little they spend on not killing you. Mawlocs are largely irrelevant (3-5 don't have enough wounds put together to survive being that close to sisters with no invul)after they pop up and there just isn't anything else in the list.
Mucolids can't charge on the turn they arrive - they have to drop more than 12" away from everything and can't move once they land. By contrast, Celestine And Friends can murder a min-squad of Ripper bases in a single turn and be gone before the fat bloaters get anywhere near them.
Personally though I wouldn't be using Mucolids to threaten Celestine. I'd rather save them for stuff that's not going to get back up on a 2+.
I'm not keen on this idea of units "making their points back" either. The effect dead models have on your opponent's ability to win the game is far more important than how much of a unit's cost I "recoup" in killing them. Mucolids are a good example, ironically enough - sitting them in cover 11" from a flag might discourage people from trying to cap it. They might not kill anything, or indeed even move, so they haven't "made their points back", and if the opponent kills them you're left "in the red" - but they likely took much more than they cost in order to remove them from play, so that's okay by me.
Literally every single unit in the army that has any kind of rend is going to killing hive tyrants
This is one of the other reasons you don't want Flyrants locked in CC with Celestine (unless you're a Nids player) - because if they are, you can't Melta them, and you have far more high-AP shooting attacks than you do melee attacks.
except for the turn the mawlocs pop up. The bolters and stormbolters are going to be going after the rippers and mucolids and basically all you'll be doing is praying to last longer than them. Celestine really has nowhere else to go but after the most isolated flyrant, a mawloc, or face first into a hilarious barrage of mortal wounds.
Maybe the corner where all the Mucolids have arrived is a bad place to be - but if you've convinced your opponent to drop a bunch of his 3"-ass Mucolids in a corner in order to protect some Rippers then I'd call that a win, right? If he expends them all to try and stop Celestine tearing his ObSec a new one, and she gets back up on a 2+... also win, I think.
That said, it's more efficient for her to be killing Mawlocs, but there will only be 1-2 turns of that. They die pretty quick. And you'll probably be out of units to...be alive with around turn 3 unless you're really mulching through.
Mawlocs do die pretty quick to everything Sisters bring to the table - Flyrants, on the other hand, don't die quickly at all. Your shooting is going to be under an enormous amount of pressure just with trying to fend off the Flyrants - why ask them to kill the trash as well? Just let Celestine do it, instead of having her duel a Flyrant for 3 turns and potentially lose to it.
Just for completeness sake, I'm looking at winning Nids list from 2 different GTs and Adepticon and they're all almost exactly the same. The only change you ever see is doing 6 flyrants for a biovore and more rippers or 5 flyrants for a several biovores and more rippers.
The "Matt Root Netlist Experience" includes Toxin Sacs and Monstrous Rending Claws everywhere. One of his Flyrants has some kind of relic too (the dude I played had a Norn Crown, which seems like an immense waste of time in a Flyrant spam army, but hey). Other than that... yeah. In lists with Biovorse then Celestine is probably going to want to be killing Biovores as well as Mawlocs - but in no case can I ever see it being a good idea to have her fighting Flyrants.
I'm not going to go through all of this to explain exactly where your thinking is wrong, because frankly I don't have time in my day, I'll just hit the high points.
If you don't kill the mawlocs, they'll charge and you can't shoot, celestine takes 2 turns to kill one, plus I already said it's more efficient to go after mawlocs so you're just repeating MY point. I never once said 'the best thing for celestine is to charge flyrants!' I said 'it's not a terrible thing to charge flyrants because of how weak most of the other options are.'
Yes, all of that stuff you said about their attack profile is included(except the tail, missed that one) in my 'they kill 1 gemini on average', including the tail, you're looking at 2 dead gemini, you're giving stats without doing the math on it AND ignoring that they'll wound degrade at the end of the second turn they fight celestine on average.
Mucolid spores don't drop, they start on the table so you have enough units to drop all the flyrants and mawlocs. They bubblewrap the objective campers so when celestine flies out there they explode on her. And, oh no, the 200pts they spent on mucolids isn't actively killing the 3 models that are left after two turns of flyrant shooting, what a nightmare. /s Also, even if you do kill the rippers, it won't affect them much.
list like this have 3 biovores max, might be worth the 2 turns it'll take to reach them, but probably not.
There are 6 flyrants, Celestine boxing out 1 isn't going to mean you're suddenly hurting for targets.
The biggest thing you're missing though, is time. You are not going to have a lot of time before they do enough damage to kill everything. If you don't neuter the flyrant shooting early your entire army is going to be dead by turn 3.
So, the FAQ will force us away from multiple Repressors with double Dominions in each. Do we run single Dominions in order to continue to Vanguard all the Repressors up the table, or do we put the odd Dominion in an Immolator and make a Repressor of doubled up BSS with max meltas or max stormbolters instead? What's better about a Repressor... getting it up close quickly, or loading it with specials?
MacPhail wrote: So, the FAQ will force us away from multiple Repressors with double Dominions in each. Do we run single Dominions in order to continue to Vanguard all the Repressors up the table, or do we put the odd Dominion in an Immolator and make a Repressor of doubled up BSS with max meltas or max stormbolters instead? What's better about a Repressor... getting it up close quickly, or loading it with specials?
Repressors still keep your girls in the fight, but Vanguard is now wasted on anything but MeltaDoms. Paired with InfSeraphim running AoF to try and get some kind of Alpha going.
Sisters get beat over the head for a rule aimed at Flyrant spam... At least we have a barfton of Elites right?
My SB Doms will get bumped out into double BSS riding in Repressors just now with ablative bolter girls.
This FAQ has affected me exactly zero. Wait. I lie. Now i get more CP for my battalions and brigades.
Quite happy with this outcome myself. My condolences to those players (not just sisters) who got hit with the rule of 3.
Edit: oops. Wait. Now i need to scratch build myself one of those psyker assassins so i can run a proper vanguard of assassins in my old school witch hunter list.
If you think about it, because our Alpha Strike never relied on deep strike, rather on AoF Seraphim/Celestine and Scouting Dominions, we are one of the few armies left that can actually put together a turn one Alpha. Sure we can't run quite as many Dominions anymore (in matched play), but overall when compared to what the FAQ means to other armies I think we came out ahead.
pretre wrote: Why shelve them? Just go to a Brigade. Brigades are sexy now.
Because you can no longer have more than 3 Retributor or 3 Dominion squads in a single army list. At 2000 points you are limited to 3 copies of a datasheet if it isn't Troops or Dedicated Transport. This unfortunately does hit sisters fairly hard, as we don't have nearly as many options per slot as most other armies.
I know what it says. And my response to the three limit is: Oh no? I didn't run more than three of any in my current list so it doesn't hit me. I mean, I made some theoretical all dominion and ret lists but never ran them after they added ob sec.
As for not having as many options... Welcome to the last 20 yaars.
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BBAP wrote: I'm a bit annoyed that I typed out all that asparagus about Flyrant spam armies on the last page
Ditto.
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Anpu-adom wrote: Petre,
Like the new thumbnail.
Yeah, sorry. I'm at work and trying to remember the right names for the things. Battalion and Outrider are the right terms.
MacPhail wrote: So, the FAQ will force us away from multiple Repressors with double Dominions in each. Do we run single Dominions in order to continue to Vanguard all the Repressors up the table, or do we put the odd Dominion in an Immolator and make a Repressor of doubled up BSS with max meltas or max stormbolters instead? What's better about a Repressor... getting it up close quickly, or loading it with specials?
Repressors still keep your girls in the fight, but Vanguard is now wasted on anything but MeltaDoms. Paired with InfSeraphim running AoF to try and get some kind of Alpha going.
Sisters get beat over the head for a rule aimed at Flyrant spam... At least we have a barfton of Elites right?
My SB Doms will get bumped out into double BSS riding in Repressors just now with ablative bolter girls.
Not a fan.
Single Dominions in Repressors are still the way to go. And now you have enough SBBSS for a Brigade.
I have to check when Imagifiers roll for their acts of faith, but if it's out of a phase, it'll be hilarious to CP re-roll them now that my brigade has 15 (!) CP!
Anpu-adom wrote: I want to see what your Brigade looks like, Pretre.
I used to have one more rhino and 3 Imagifers but I swapped one Imag/One rhino for 2 Dia and 1 Culexus because I ran into two 2K Sons in 5 games last event.
Spoiler:
2k - 14 CP Brigade - 12 CP
HQ - Canoness with Evis/BP - 57
HQ - Canoness with Power Sword/BP - 49 (Relic)
HQ - Celestine and 2 G - 250
OB SEC TROOP - 5 BSS with 3 SB - 51
OB SEC TROOP - 5 BSS with 3 SB - 51
DT - Repressor - 110
OB SEC TROOP - 5 BSS with 2 SB - 49
OB SEC TROOP - 5 BSS with 2 SB - 49
DT - Rhino - 75
OB SEC TROOP - 5 BSS with 2 SB - 49
DT - Immo with Immo Flamer - 103
OB SEC TROOP - 5 BSS with 2 SB - 49
DT - Immo with Immo Flamer - 103
ELITE - Imagifer - 40
ELITE - Imagifer - 40
ELITE - Imagifer - 40
HEAVY - 5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
HEAVY - 5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
HEAVY - 5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
FAST - 8 Seraphim with 4 Inferno Pistols, Chainsword/BP - 124
FAST - 5 Dominions with 4 Melta - 118
DT - Repressor - 110
FAST - 5 Dominions with 4 Melta - 118
DT - Repressor - 110
2000
New list:
Brigade
HQ - Sister Vangela - Canoness with Evis/BP - 57
HQ - Sister Ephrael - Canoness with Power Sword/BP - 49 (Relic)
HQ - St Seraphine, Sisters Rolandsdotr and Lila - Celestine and 2 G - 250
OB SEC TROOP - His Agony - 5 BSS with 3 SB - 51
OB SEC TROOP - His Woe - 5 BSS with 3 SB - 51
DT - Repressor - 110
OB SEC TROOP - His Pain - 5 BSS with 2 SB - 49
OB SEC TROOP - His Grief - 5 BSS with 2 SB - 49
OB SEC TROOP - His Loss - 5 BSS with 2 SB - 49
DT - Immo with Immo Flamer - 103
OB SEC TROOP - His Suffering - 5 BSS with 2 SB - 49
DT - Immo with Immo Flamer - 103
ELITE - Imagifer Joan - 40
ELITE - Imagifer Melise - 40
ELITE - Dialogous Yara - 15
ELITE - Dialogous Dia - 15
HEAVY - His Fury - 5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
HEAVY - His Wrath - 5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
HEAVY - His Anger - 5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
FAST - His Deliverance - 8 Seraphim with 4 Inferno Pistols, Chainsword/BP - 124
FAST - His Retribution - 5 Dominions with 4 Melta - 118
DT - Repressor - 110
FAST - His Retaliation - 5 Dominions with 4 Melta - 118
I have to check when Imagifiers roll for their acts of faith, but if it's out of a phase, it'll be hilarious to CP re-roll them now that my brigade has 15 (!) CP!
I think you'll still want to save them for Martyrdom and CP rerolls on important stuff, but that's me. And it is 'at the start of each of your turns.'
I don't know that chasing CP is as important now... with the boost and the fact that we have fewer strategems to spend them on, I feel like Battalion plus whatever can deliver in a way it didn't used to.
I really don't want to say this because I know Unit is going to squeal in delight, but I may replace my 2x Xiphons with a Shadowsword. Has anyone had any luck running SoB with a baneblade variant?
deviantduck wrote: I really don't want to say this because I know Unit is going to squeal in delight, but I may replace my 2x Xiphons with a Shadowsword. Has anyone had any luck running SoB with a baneblade variant?
I'm fairly certain that Katherine does, with success.
As for my Sororitas, there's evidence that Acts of Faith aren't rolled for "in a phase" and so you can re-roll the dice. With the CP buffs that my foot sororitas are getting, this means that Imagifiers now have a 75% chance of giving me an AOF, because I can re-roll all of the 3 4+s and still have more CP than I did before. Plus Celestine's and the basic army's and that's 5 Acts of Faith.
deviantduck wrote: I really don't want to say this because I know Unit is going to squeal in delight, but I may replace my 2x Xiphons with a Shadowsword. Has anyone had any luck running SoB with a baneblade variant?
I'm fairly certain that Katherine does, with success.
As for my Sororitas, there's evidence that Acts of Faith aren't rolled for "in a phase" and so you can re-roll the dice. With the CP buffs that my foot sororitas are getting, this means that Imagifiers now have a 75% chance of giving me an AOF, because I can re-roll all of the 3 4+s and still have more CP than I did before. Plus Celestine's and the basic army's and that's 5 Acts of Faith.
I'm eager to see how this ^^^ debate in YMDC flushes out.
Also, prior to the FAQ I thought about using my imagifers as following.
Dominion squad in Repressor
BSS on foot at edge of deployment zone and within 6" of imagifer.
Vanguard move up repressor 12".
Use imagifer to run BSS up 6".
Movement phase, move BSS up to repressor embark.
Repressor moves.
Repressor now has 1 dom 1 bss at midfield.
It takes a bit of the bite out of my Retributors on turn 1, but can still get units downfield in mixed company.
Let me know if I'm wrong, but I think the only restriction for movement is on units that disembark. They have to disembark before the transport moves. The transport itself can move however it wants when it wants.
I have 6k metal SOB (2k painted so I will have to change maybe) unpainted and my biggest question atm is if I keep mounting them on 32mms? I have stopped and are doing other armies... but with the release of SOB in 2019 will they be 28s or 32s? Sigh all my SOB are now on hold. Silver lining is I sold 5k+ points worth of painted SOB before they said where releasing plastic
I don't know... I'm painting my metal sisters (Only about 800 points, but I don't have any vehicles) and I'll worry about bases and vehicles next year.
Im gunna be more safe than sorry and paint up everything else I have about SoB next year. I just pack them all away nicely so will be there this time next year . Now to my Necromunda terrain and warbands.
Now I have to cast more inferno pistols because this is a no brainer. Also, how the hell am I going to model an inferno pistol on the storm bolter model....
Or just mount an inferno barrel on the top of the storm bolter.
