I'm still using Melta Doms/Repressors but I'm debating swapping them for 6-9 units of seraphim instead. With the points increase I'm finding Repressors to be border line not worth it.
Rynner wrote: I'm still using Melta Doms/Repressors but I'm debating swapping them for 6-9 units of seraphim instead. With the points increase I'm finding Repressors to be border line not worth it.
Seraphim suffer from some of the worst Diminishing returns of any unit in the codex. Immolators with immolation flamers are the competitive alternative to repressors if the point hit was too hard for you.
IDK about them but i do 2 Repressors with Doms x4 MG's in each and 2 Squads of Seraphim with Inferno Pistols (Normally a squad dies on turn 2 or are in a good spot for the 2nd unit to DS on turn 2 or turn 3 for continuous Meltas). Edit: I should note that I only am doing this now that they are cheaper by 12pts, they are really effective for their price IMO. I even order more.
I use melta doms in a repressor for my antitank, along with a unit of inferno seraphim to knock out big nasties early game. Exorcists mop up what is left over.
Oftentimes I'll field a knight errant for the thermal cannon and bullet magnet factor, this does a good job.
One list has 3 exorcists with hunter killer, a squad of inferno seraphim and meltadom in repressor and the knight with the d6 damage rockets add on.
This is usually enough to manage any armour i come up against. Celestine help as an extra element.
Great vs armour and multiwound, but susceptible to mobs.
Ive been fiddling with a 2k pire sisters Brigade list that i feel is a bit more balanced and did a really good job against nids recently with a mix of big beasties and lots of little gribblies.
yes im looking at 2 units of dominions with x4 melta in repressors and 4 units of seraphim for my anti tank. at the renegade open there was a 0-1 restriction on FW so i took 6 units of seraphim and it was a lot of fun. they can die quick but if you hide them or tie them up in combat i often had 1/3 of them left at the end of the game with melta all over the board.
IVIOOSE wrote: What do most of you use for anti tank if all the repressors are full of stormbolters? Have a few with melta or just more units of seraphim with inferno pistols.
Supreme Command Detachment with five Canoness with Eviscerators and Inferno Pistols riding in a Repressor...
IVIOOSE wrote: What do most of you use for anti tank if all the repressors are full of stormbolters? Have a few with melta or just more units of seraphim with inferno pistols.
Supreme Command Detachment with five Canoness with Eviscerators and Inferno Pistols riding in a Repressor...
Is it worth taking a Bastion for the lascannon and the protection it offers? I can see some use in putting a load of Heavy Bolter sisters in there, but is it too vulnerable to enemy fire?
IVIOOSE wrote: What do most of you use for anti tank if all the repressors are full of stormbolters? Have a few with melta or just more units of seraphim with inferno pistols.
Supreme Command Detachment with five Canoness with Eviscerators and Inferno Pistols riding in a Repressor...
You have any BatReps of that? lol
Nothing put together no, it's something I have been playing with over the last few weeks. Just holiday gaming, nothing in a tournament but against some good players. They hit hard for their points.
Rynner wrote: I'm still using Melta Doms/Repressors but I'm debating swapping them for 6-9 units of seraphim instead. With the points increase I'm finding Repressors to be border line not worth it.
Seraphim suffer from some of the worst Diminishing returns of any unit in the codex. Immolators with immolation flamers are the competitive alternative to repressors if the point hit was too hard for you.
I'm not sure about that. I'm currently running 3 units of 7 Seraphim with 4 inferno pistols each and 3 units of 4 Melta Dominions in duel storm bolter Repressors. In my past 7 games I have yet to see more than one Repressor and it's dominions live past bottom of two (if I go first) or bottom of 1 if I go second. Between Dark Repears, 3x Tripple Las Preds, Robby G backed anything, and guard they just crumble. At 92 points for the tank in the past it wasn't a big deal. But at 112 it's a problem.
The Seraphim on the other hand always get their points back and I generally have at least one unit alive at end game.
Rynner wrote: I'm still using Melta Doms/Repressors but I'm debating swapping them for 6-9 units of seraphim instead. With the points increase I'm finding Repressors to be border line not worth it.
Seraphim suffer from some of the worst Diminishing returns of any unit in the codex. Immolators with immolation flamers are the competitive alternative to repressors if the point hit was too hard for you.
I'm not sure about that. I'm currently running 3 units of 7 Seraphim with 4 inferno pistols each and 3 units of 4 Melta Dominions in duel storm bolter Repressors. In my past 7 games I have yet to see more than one Repressor and it's dominions live past bottom of two (if I go first) or bottom of 1 if I go second. Between Dark Repears, 3x Tripple Las Preds, Robby G backed anything, and guard they just crumble. At 92 points for the tank in the past it wasn't a big deal. But at 112 it's a problem.
The Seraphim on the other hand always get their points back and I generally have at least one unit alive at end game.
Do you bail your Repressors for LOS cover if you don't get first turn with their (the Dominions) Scout move? Or inversely, set up out of LOS and Scout forward only if you get first turn? Not sure if its a table terrain % issue or perhaps that I take six Repressors for sure and sometimes add Immolators or Repressors on top of that. I have lost three Repressors in the top of turn one several times but my Doms still manage to have a huge impact.
I have played with six 5 girl squads of Seraphim before. They are good, though in my experience they don't hold up as well as the Repressor Doms. I can never keep enough of them near Celestine to help their invulns. I'm glad they do for you, I may have to revisit the build.
I feel the same tho, they do suffer Diminishing Returns.
You can have 6 Dom units and and more and more and it works great and keeps getting better.
But after 2 units of Seraphim it really doesnt work much better if you take more. Some units are great and great at taking many of them other units you really only need 1-2... maybe 3 at most.
Rynner wrote: I'm still using Melta Doms/Repressors but I'm debating swapping them for 6-9 units of seraphim instead. With the points increase I'm finding Repressors to be border line not worth it.
Seraphim suffer from some of the worst Diminishing returns of any unit in the codex. Immolators with immolation flamers are the competitive alternative to repressors if the point hit was too hard for you.
I'm not sure about that. I'm currently running 3 units of 7 Seraphim with 4 inferno pistols each and 3 units of 4 Melta Dominions in duel storm bolter Repressors. In my past 7 games I have yet to see more than one Repressor and it's dominions live past bottom of two (if I go first) or bottom of 1 if I go second. Between Dark Repears, 3x Tripple Las Preds, Robby G backed anything, and guard they just crumble. At 92 points for the tank in the past it wasn't a big deal. But at 112 it's a problem.
The Seraphim on the other hand always get their points back and I generally have at least one unit alive at end game.
When you do your scout move, do you try to keep them all near Celestine for her +1 invuln save? I usually deploy mine in as much cover as possible, clustered near Celestine for her added protection. Sometimes I’ll spread them out to keep my opponent guessing and if I don’t get first they all scout back to within 6” of Celestine. If I do get first turn they all go in together. I’ve found the 5+ invuln Celestine gives is invaluable.
Rynner wrote: I'm still using Melta Doms/Repressors but I'm debating swapping them for 6-9 units of seraphim instead. With the points increase I'm finding Repressors to be border line not worth it.
Seraphim suffer from some of the worst Diminishing returns of any unit in the codex. Immolators with immolation flamers are the competitive alternative to repressors if the point hit was too hard for you.
I'm not sure about that. I'm currently running 3 units of 7 Seraphim with 4 inferno pistols each and 3 units of 4 Melta Dominions in duel storm bolter Repressors. In my past 7 games I have yet to see more than one Repressor and it's dominions live past bottom of two (if I go first) or bottom of 1 if I go second. Between Dark Repears, 3x Tripple Las Preds, Robby G backed anything, and guard they just crumble. At 92 points for the tank in the past it wasn't a big deal. But at 112 it's a problem.
The Seraphim on the other hand always get their points back and I generally have at least one unit alive at end game.
When you do your scout move, do you try to keep them all near Celestine for her +1 invuln save? I usually deploy mine in as much cover as possible, clustered near Celestine for her added protection. Sometimes I’ll spread them out to keep my opponent guessing and if I don’t get first they all scout back to within 6” of Celestine. If I do get first turn they all go in together. I’ve found the 5+ invuln Celestine gives is invaluable.
Of course - if it makes sense to. Vs Armies that are only -2 at range keeping them near her doesn't make a difference. Well see. All in all I'll most likely keep them as the scout move is very valuable.
PanzerLeader wrote: What do you guys think of this? It’s my current LVO idea.
I would take a priest for the flagents. I dislike basic flamers and personally find them over coasted for what they do, 3 Storm Bolters per squad would be better.
Rynner wrote: I'm still using Melta Doms/Repressors but I'm debating swapping them for 6-9 units of seraphim instead. With the points increase I'm finding Repressors to be border line not worth it.
Seraphim suffer from some of the worst Diminishing returns of any unit in the codex. Immolators with immolation flamers are the competitive alternative to repressors if the point hit was too hard for you.
I'm not sure about that. I'm currently running 3 units of 7 Seraphim with 4 inferno pistols each and 3 units of 4 Melta Dominions in duel storm bolter Repressors. In my past 7 games I have yet to see more than one Repressor and it's dominions live past bottom of two (if I go first) or bottom of 1 if I go second. Between Dark Repears, 3x Tripple Las Preds, Robby G backed anything, and guard they just crumble. At 92 points for the tank in the past it wasn't a big deal. But at 112 it's a problem.
The Seraphim on the other hand always get their points back and I generally have at least one unit alive at end game.
Absolutely. Dominions live long enough to do their job, Seraphim without an act of faith don't. On turn 1, with 12" of move or deep strike, Seraphim will be solidly out of their own range.
Dominions in Repressors/Immolators are a turn-1 threat, without the AoF, Seraphim are a turn-2 threat.
Seraphim with the AoF are, arguably by meta, one of the most efficient turn-1 threats I can personally think of, and sync very well with mechanized Dominions. Once they no longer have the AoF, I'd definitely rather have another vanguarding Immolator full of Meltaguns.
Rynner wrote: I'm still using Melta Doms/Repressors but I'm debating swapping them for 6-9 units of seraphim instead. With the points increase I'm finding Repressors to be border line not worth it.
Seraphim suffer from some of the worst Diminishing returns of any unit in the codex. Immolators with immolation flamers are the competitive alternative to repressors if the point hit was too hard for you.
I'm not sure about that. I'm currently running 3 units of 7 Seraphim with 4 inferno pistols each and 3 units of 4 Melta Dominions in duel storm bolter Repressors. In my past 7 games I have yet to see more than one Repressor and it's dominions live past bottom of two (if I go first) or bottom of 1 if I go second. Between Dark Repears, 3x Tripple Las Preds, Robby G backed anything, and guard they just crumble. At 92 points for the tank in the past it wasn't a big deal. But at 112 it's a problem.
The Seraphim on the other hand always get their points back and I generally have at least one unit alive at end game.
Absolutely. Dominions live long enough to do their job, Seraphim without an act of faith don't. On turn 1, with 12" of move or deep strike, Seraphim will be solidly out of their own range.
Dominions in Repressors/Immolators are a turn-1 threat, without the AoF, Seraphim are a turn-2 threat.
Seraphim with the AoF are, arguably by meta, one of the most efficient turn-1 threats I can personally think of, and sync very well with mechanized Dominions. Once they no longer have the AoF, I'd definitely rather have another vanguarding Immolator full of Meltaguns.
Thus diminishing returns! Seraphim need AoF to be effective and other threats to survive long enough to deliver their payload. 2, even 3 units of Seraphim could be worth, trying to spam them like we do dominions wouldn't. Keep in mind that a unit of Seraphim with inferno pistols that DOESN'T get AoF is actually SLOWER than a squad of dominions on foot(12"move+6"pistol VS 6"move 12" Gun +D6 Advance if you have to)
Amishprn86 wrote: If the Exorcist was always 3D i would use mine... but..... they are not. I'd rather just take a Leman Russ :(
Im actually waiting for the SoB release, if that thing isnt good enough i have a great idea for a SoB' Leman Russ
Edit: Just to let you know, it is only 3D on average vs a Rhino (without Command Point re-roll on the D6 shots).
Fun Fact, without buffs from other AM units a Stock Leman Russ actually does less damage to anything with a 3+ save than an Exorist on average.
And thats why no one was using it and it got buffed.
Stock Battle Tanks are decidedly pretty poor. They're improved dramatically with the addition of a Lascannon to a sort of vaguely passable, and I think Heavy Bolters are sort of take-it-or-leave-it.
The thing is, an Exorcist or stock LRBT's output is absolutely anemic for a 135 point unit. It's straight up garbage. The Leman Russ can at least be upgraded to present some variety of a threat.
The Battle Cannon and Exorcist Launcher are both too weak to hurt vehicles and too few shots to affect infantry, making it an even worse situation where they don't really have a defined place. In some ways, they're optimal against Heavy Infantry, which our army is admittedly pretty lacking against, but they're way too expensive and far too unreliable in that capacity. I have found purpose for it plinking terminators, rubrics, and primaris, but it's not reliable enough for me to like it.
Amishprn86 wrote: And i fully agree with that. I treat them as an Elite killing unit. or Bike killer. But i dont need that and i can easily be stopped with 1 melee.
Well, I think we kind of do need a heavy infantry killer, the Exorcist just isn't proficient enough or reliable enough for the cost. It's just far too erratic.
I've discovered some problems when fighting armies consisting of a lot of heavy infantry. One or two squads can be handled by meltagun units like another vehicle, but when there's a lot of mid-cost heavy infantry there doesn't seem to be an efficient countermeasure.
I agree with Amishprn. My SB Doms can deal with more Elite infantry than I regularly come across. The Exorcist is supposed to fill that role. Higher guaranteed damage or even higher potential damage like d6 Dam per shot would help, but it really comes down to the number of shots the Exorcist puts out.
I know others have mention the Xiphon interceptor. After thinking about it for abit and looking it over again and again, i'm for sure going to get one.
Tho... my wife is alittle mad b.c of the cost, i think she might make me paint it like a Duck, from Darkwing Duck. She says it looks like Darkwing Duck would fly it and it needs to be painted like it.....
What do you think of multiple Canoness with eviscerator? I'm talking 5-6.
I tried some Custodes yesterday and saw today someone talking about Canoness spam. I've never thought of it, but when I compare them to the Custodes, which are very good and about 56 points each with Storm Shield (factoring banner on a 10-man unit), I realized the Canoness is as good as a Custodes. She is now 57 points with the eviscerator. Compared to the custodes, she the has same weapon skill of 2+ but re-rolling 1 (though -1 to hit with eviscerator), bs2 instead of bs3 (why not add an inferno pistol, clocking at 66pts?), strength 6 instead of 5, ap -4 instead of -3, same damage (d3), same number of attacks (4), +1attack if priest nearby toughness 3 instead of toughness 5, 4++ instead of 3++, 3+ instead of 2+, but 5 wounds instead of 3. can benefit from act of faith or activate one when dying with Martydom, so can heal d3 wounds from time to time and ! she is a character, so cannot be targeted easily in a way, it compensates for her T3 has access to similar transports (not land raiders, but I would not put them in one anyway) has access to the Blade of Admonition relic (she would cost 49pts instead of 57) and Celestians would finally have a purpose as bodyguard!
She seems really good! At 66 points with the melta like pistol, she is one of the best non-named character of the game (infantry size). For these stats and weapons, 66 points is ridiculously low. There's nothing like it that I know of in Astartes armies. Obvioulsy, a list including 6 of them would have to be built around them to palliate their slowness, etc.
This idea has been floating around a bit lately. It seems to be one of those happy accidents where the rules just favour the humble cannoness and the sisters loadout just really works. They can be a terror when fielded effectively i imagine, but a few thunder hammers can still ruin their day.
I havent heard any battle reports on the cannonni performance aside from some off hand "varying degrees of success" comments; i would be very much interested to hear a decent performance revier begore i start converting all my chansword/plamsa pistol superiors into eviscerator/inferno pistol cannonnesses
Tried it. Ran 3 cannoness, 1 with BoA, 2 with evis, +priest +repentia +mistress +Imagifier +celestine with 2 Gs. Vs Deathguard zombie list in a casual game to try out our CA stuff. Was unimpressed.
Celestine, Doms and Seraphim, even non vanguarded immolators just race on up the board and start killing on turn 1. all the melee stuff only starts making contact on turn 2+.
A unit of repentia+priest+mistress did more work in the single turn they were disembarked and on the table than the 3 cannoesses did the entire game. The canoness were a lot more durable though. They all just suffer horrendously with lack of mobility.
It's a bit of a laugh for a casual game, but in my opinion with the mobility issue and the Beta Character rules they just fall far to short of the mark for 'competitive' play when there are other better options.
IMO, Sprinkle them in as an option as detachment tax demands.
if you specifically want a sisters melee unit repentia and penitent engines (i know they're ad min not sisters but they'll all ways be sisters in my heart) are about equal in there glass cannon nature (of deleting something then falling over to a stiff breeze), with repentia possibly just edging out a win in terms of mobility.
Canoness spam was something I thought about right after 8th came out and I started playing with lists (my loadout would have been power mauls and stormbolters in a Repressor).The main problem I’ve had with this concept since the beginning is them actually getting into combat where I need them.
With contact happening so quickly in 8th, and Celestine / Dominions being so mobile, the Canonesses just disappoint unless you’re willing to hold them back. If they could fly or ride with Doms without removing their Vanguard move there would be a place for them.
I think you could do something fun with 5 BSS in an Immo with a Canoness. Kind of like the extra Dialogous, but this one really makes you make a choice.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yeah, so Brigade at 2k
Canoness with Evis/BP - 57
Canoness with Power Sword (Relic)/BP - 49
Celestine and 2G - 250
5 BSS with 3 SB - 51
5 BSS with 3 SB - 51
Repressor - 110
5 BSS with 2 SB - 49
5 BSS with 2 SB - 49
Rhino - 75
5 BSS with 2 SB - 49
Immo with Immo Fl - 103
5 BSS with 2 SB - 49
Immo with Immo Fl - 103
Imagifer - 40
Imagifer - 40
Imagifer - 40
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
8 Seraph with 4 IP - 124
5 Doms with 4 Melta - 118
Repressor - 110
5 Doms with 4 Melta - 118
Repressor - 110
The Canonesses ride in the Immos and pop out early to give rerolls to the front line of attack. They are also great martyrdom fodder if not ignored and a little choppy if ignored.
I don't think the brigade is worth running still. Although it is a good concept. I think there is a potential to run Bat++ for 8 CP
With the 3 imagifiers there it cries out for more seraphim. 2 maybe even 3 squads, getting catapulted forward on turn1 with the Imagifiers staying behind to feeding the heavy bolters after that.
Drider wrote: I don't think the brigade is worth running still. Although it is a good concept. I think there is a potential to run Bat++ for 8 CP
With the 3 imagifiers there it cries out for more seraphim. 2 maybe even 3 squads, getting catapulted forward on turn1 with the Imagifiers staying behind to feeding the heavy bolters after that.
Well, with Celestine and 3 Imagifers, that's 1 free acts of faith, 1 on a 2+ and 3 on a 4+ (so 3 1/3) Acts of Faith on turn one. So Celestine, a Seraphim squad and a HB. Not sure I'd want to get another Seraphim in there just for that.
I have been having good luck with five canonesses. Hasn't been much going on over the holidays so nothing really new to report other than what I have before. With inferno pistols in a Repressor for getting up the board they can be a shooting threat as well while still riding around. If the targets aren't there for melee I have just left them mounted up and make sure I get within 6" of something heavy.
I have made the attempt to target big nasties with them and after the volley of inferno pistols charges with the Eviscerators tend to mop things up well enough. Certainly surprised my opponents. Top tier, no, what in a Sisters list really is? Is an InfP/Evis canoness worth more than the 4 repentia she almost costs? You bet.
You can get Celestine and twins with 6 squads of Repressor Doms, Two squads of HB Rets, an Imagifer. Then still have enough points for 5 Canonesses with IP/Evis and a Celestian bodyguard riding in a Repressor in 2k. Save one CP for Celestines re-roll and your second most aggressive unit is just begging to kick up Martyrdom. Whats not to like?
I would recommend putting an acolyte (8 points) in the repressor with the canonesses : in the event of an ''explosion'', you could sacrifice the acolyte. In an Immolator, I would put a dialogus. If he dies, you activate martyrdom.
RenegadeKorps wrote: What do you think of multiple Canoness with eviscerator? I'm talking 5-6.
I tried some Custodes yesterday and saw today someone talking about Canoness spam. I've never thought of it, but when I compare them to the Custodes, which are very good and about 56 points each with Storm Shield (factoring banner on a 10-man unit), I realized the Canoness is as good as a Custodes.
She is now 57 points with the eviscerator.
Compared to the custodes,
she the has same weapon skill of 2+ but re-rolling 1 (though -1 to hit with eviscerator),
bs2 instead of bs3 (why not add an inferno pistol, clocking at 66pts?),
strength 6 instead of 5, ap -4 instead of -3, same damage (d3), same number of attacks (4), +1attack if priest nearby
toughness 3 instead of toughness 5, 4++ instead of 3++, 3+ instead of 2+, but 5 wounds instead of 3.
can benefit from act of faith or activate one when dying with Martydom, so can heal d3 wounds from time to time
and ! she is a character, so cannot be targeted easily in a way, it compensates for her T3
has access to similar transports (not land raiders, but I would not put them in one anyway)
has access to the Blade of Admonition relic (she would cost 49pts instead of 57)
and Celestians would finally have a purpose as bodyguard!
She seems really good! At 66 points with the melta like pistol, she is one of the best non-named character of the game (infantry size). For these stats and weapons, 66 points is ridiculously low. There's nothing like it that I know of in Astartes armies.
Obvioulsy, a list including 6 of them would have to be built around them to palliate their slowness, etc.
What do you think?
I don't think Custodians are any good. I've used them entirely without success at anything.
From my experience, they absolutely need the transport, otherwise they get shot to pieces, and they're way too expensive to be a bullet magnet. In addition, their achievements offensively leave much to be desired. It strikes me that they are optimally equipped to fight a mirror-match against enemy heavy infantry, and 250 points is way more than I'd ever want to pay for that task.
The W3 is I think their selling point as heavy infantry, because there's a lot of D2 options out there for wrecking Terminators and Primaris-equivalent units.
Anyway, back to Canonii, I mean, sure they may be tit-for-tat better than Custodian Guard, that doesn't exactly make them amazing.
How many acts of faith are people finding ideal? I’m using 2.5 right now (Celestine, Imagifier, army wide) and it’s usually enough. Curious what others are doing.
PanzerLeader wrote: How many acts of faith are people finding ideal? I’m using 2.5 right now (Celestine, Imagifier, army wide) and it’s usually enough. Curious what others are doing.
If I use a squad of Rets, I give them an Imagifer. I consider them as 40pt wargear for Retributors.
I haven't really been tracking them. My gut tells me it's over 50%. I know I've had one game where they went off every single time, and I've never had a game where they've not gone off once.
I run with 2.5. One Imagifer with two squads of hb Rets parked in the backfield. The army wide AoF doesn't have a tie to a specific location, so I tend to use it as the game needs it. I put the Imagifer in because I can't afford a third squad of Rets. Of course, my Canoness bus has been supplying the 1-2 martyrdom uses I can usually afford.
PanzerLeader wrote: How many acts of faith are people finding ideal? I’m using 2.5 right now (Celestine, Imagifier, army wide) and it’s usually enough. Curious what others are doing.
2. St. Celestine and the base one.
I tried having an Imagifier in one game, but, to say the least, I was entirely unimpressed with the 40 point investment.
They are far too unpredictable and uncontrollable to be a useful element when planning. Even if it were 1/game it would be more tolerable for 40 points, because at least I'd be able to control when it triggers.
PanzerLeader wrote: How many acts of faith are people finding ideal? I’m using 2.5 right now (Celestine, Imagifier, army wide) and it’s usually enough. Curious what others are doing.
2. St. Celestine and the base one.
I tried having an Imagifier in one game, but, to say the least, I was entirely unimpressed with the 40 point investment.
They are far too unpredictable and uncontrollable to be a useful element when planning. Even if it were 1/game it would be more tolerable for 40 points, because at least I'd be able to control when it triggers.
Yeah I've found them so - so. I'm not sold or unsold on them either way way. If I get around to it I might drop the 2 imaginers and just play 16 heavy bolters.
On paper, if it works, Imagifers are great but in my experience post CA (12ish games) when they work its devastating but most of the time I would have rather just had another squad.
My main issue with dropping them is that my current list (posted below for reference) really needs 3 acts of faith turn one to function right so I have to double down on the Imagifers.
@ Rynner- I’ve found that when I’ve fielded that many Seraphim with Inferno Pistols they attract the majority, if not all, of my opponent’s small arms fire and die in short order. It might be best to either keep them back and use them as the AoFs allow or deep strike them in to avoid the possibility of being alpha struck. At least that way you won’t need the redundant Imagifiers.
As much as I want to love AoFs, even the army wide 2+ one can fail (even with a re-roll), so I tend to view it as a bonus not a necessity and make my lists with that view in mind.
davidgr33n wrote: @ Rynner- I’ve found that when I’ve fielded that many Seraphim with Inferno Pistols they attract the majority, if not all, of my opponent’s small arms fire and die in short order. It might be best to either keep them back and use them as the AoFs allow or deep strike them in to avoid the possibility of being alpha struck. At least that way you won’t need the redundant Imagifiers.
As much as I want to love AoFs, even the army wide 2+ one can fail (even with a re-roll), so I tend to view it as a bonus not a necessity and make my lists with that view in mind.
With a CP, I'm able to make sure that the army-wide one happens on the turn I want it to, so I can at least plan on it happening once on the turn I want it to.
davidgr33n wrote: @ Rynner- I’ve found that when I’ve fielded that many Seraphim with Inferno Pistols they attract the majority, if not all, of my opponent’s small arms fire and die in short order. It might be best to either keep them back and use them as the AoFs allow or deep strike them in to avoid the possibility of being alpha struck. At least that way you won’t need the redundant Imagifiers.
As much as I want to love AoFs, even the army wide 2+ one can fail (even with a re-roll), so I tend to view it as a bonus not a necessity and make my lists with that view in mind.
The smaller 5 woman squads are basically to just deep strike in on an objective and score a point or two. I expect them to die. If they live then the inferno pistols become an issue for my opponent. Lately I've been debating just taking 3 naked squads of 5. It's almost the same points cost as 2 squads of 5 with 1 model with dual inferno pistols.
You'd be surprised. The 7 woman squads live way longer than you'd expect. I wasn't kidding when I said I have yet to see a single repressor make it past turn 2. Most of opponents fire power goes into them and the crew and they tend to ignore the seraphim till its too late. If you factor in that and the new Martyrdom stratagem your seraphim can generally get away from most issues or get to where the need to be cause the most havoc while taking minimal or no damage.
The imagifers, when I can roll a 4+ can also give you amazing efficiently for your heavy bolters or just be used to go get an objective themselves. Although I still don't love them.
My first few games I ran 2 Imagifiers, then I went to 1 and it seems like the way to go. She's always hanging out with Heavy Bolter Retributors and tends to get her 4+ an average number of times. My Celestine AoF and the 2+ AoF pretty much go on Celestine and her escort of Seraphim 99% of the time until the Seraphim die, then the fighty Canoness starts to get the love.
My only problem with the Imagifier is that it's an extra drop, and that can be very significant. Putting her in a transport and jumping out turn 1 wastes her ability for a full turn.
With CA I had some free points and added in an Eversor Assassin. He's been freaking awesome, but I'm wasting the Relic on a backfield support Canoness. I could drop him, add in a 3rd Canoness and take advantage of the Relic, but Celestine and 3 Canonesses in a 2k army list feels very unfluffy. I hope we get a few more HQ options when our Codex drops sometime in 2058.
PanzerLeader wrote: How many acts of faith are people finding ideal? I’m using 2.5 right now (Celestine, Imagifier, army wide) and it’s usually enough. Curious what others are doing.
If I use a squad of Rets, I give them an Imagifer. I consider them as 40pt wargear for Retributors.
How large do you run your Retributor squads? Is it worth adding Bolter sisters to take some casualties or just pack out more heavy weapons?
Also, are Heavy Flamers actually any good or should I stick to putting them in Battle Sister Squads?
IVIOOSE wrote: do people think that running 5-6 repressors with dominions is a viable strategy or did the point cost on repressors kind of hinder that list nowdays
Yes, and I still do this, i just dont take 6-7 of them any more and now take 2 Seraphim squads and 5-6 Dom+reps.
My few other SM friends are really jealous of the Repressors, they would pay the points for them in a heart beat.
PanzerLeader wrote: How many acts of faith are people finding ideal? I’m using 2.5 right now (Celestine, Imagifier, army wide) and it’s usually enough. Curious what others are doing.
If I use a squad of Rets, I give them an Imagifer. I consider them as 40pt wargear for Retributors.
How large do you run your Retributor squads? Is it worth adding Bolter sisters to take some casualties or just pack out more heavy weapons?
Also, are Heavy Flamers actually any good or should I stick to putting them in Battle Sister Squads?
To Panzer's original question, I jave been running 5... Celestine, army-wide, and 3 Imagifiers. With CA I might adjust given new uses for my CP...
Army-wide usually catapults Seraphim forward to pace C & BFFs. Celestine drives her own extra fight phases or falls back if she's outmatched. 1 Imagifier advances with a melee Canoness and either helps her cover ground or boosts melta output with the Doms. The other two hang back with Warlord Canoness and HB Rets.
Brigade CPs keep the Imagifiers more consistent. I've had some dud rounds, but usually the Rets make their points back. The others help with board control and TacOs. Trading the forward Imagifier for 2 Dialogus is my next experiment... or maybe just buy more HBs or PEs.
To jbeil's Qs, one extra body in the Rets, because they tend to get targeted by random missile launchers due to range and because I hit them so hard with AoFs.
Heavy flamers in a Rhino are fun against certain opponents, but are hard to position. Mine have sometimes given a ride to the melee Canoness and Imagifier. I think they're a great target for a Dialogus... if the transport gets shot out from under them after they close to flamer range, they could potentially fire on your opponent's shooting, your start of turn, and your shooting. The Dialogus makes it possible to fall them back on your opponent's Fight phase if they get charged (and who charges 4 heavy flamers?)... so yeah, I'm taking a second look at them.
when you use acts of faith, have any of you ever use the army wide one for units inside the repressors since it is just pick a unit in your army with the act of faith rule
unlike celistine or imagifier rules that have to target a unit within so far of range
IVIOOSE wrote: when you use acts of faith, have any of you ever use the army wide one for units inside the repressors since it is just pick a unit in your army with the act of faith rule
unlike celistine or imagifier rules that have to target a unit within so far of range
Units in a transport cannot be affected in any way unless specified, as per the main rule book.
The Repressor rules state specifically that units inside can shoot out, but that is all they are allowed to do and are not affected in any other way.
I would give it a try... but then I'd need a pair of dialogus models... and I'd need to look at a pair of dialogus models... and I'd need to touch a pair of dialogus models.
Anpu-adom wrote: I would give it a try... but then I'd need a pair of dialogus models... and I'd need to look at a pair of dialogus models... and I'd need to touch a pair of dialogus models.
No, definitely something I'm not prepared to do.
Nor I... the GW one is horrendous. I'm currently using a couple of old witch hunter henchman models. One is the warrior acolyte with the book and flame staff, the other is hoisting big mechanical scrolls. I figure anyone who looks like they're reading or speaking fits the bill. Brothers Dialogus instead of Sisters, looking more Ministorum than Sororitas. I'll try for a pic later.
IVIOOSE wrote: Anyone have any luck running a few dialogus just to die and give an act of faith in opponents turn? Looking st putting 2 into my list
What would they do if the don't die?
You're not buying 20 points for an AoF 1/game, you're paying 20 points for an AoF you probably won't be able to collect on until turn 3 or 4 that your opponent decides when you get [IE: you will get it when you least need it]. If the Dialogi don't die, was the points well spent, or would you rather have something else for the cost?
Anpu-adom wrote: I would give it a try... but then I'd need a pair of dialogus models... and I'd need to look at a pair of dialogus models... and I'd need to touch a pair of dialogus models.
No, definitely something I'm not prepared to do.
Nor I... the GW one is horrendous. I'm currently using a couple of old witch hunter henchman models. One is the warrior acolyte with the book and flame staff, the other is hoisting big mechanical scrolls. I figure anyone who looks like they're reading or speaking fits the bill. Brothers Dialogus instead of Sisters, looking more Ministorum than Sororitas. I'll try for a pic later.
They look better than repentia. I think the problem is the mechanical eyes and the sprinklerheaded staff.
But if you are charging with it, then you don't get the Act of Faith in your opponents turn.
A better use would be as a sacrificial charger ahead of something that you don't want to get shot up. Throw her in a rhino with a priest and some Death Cult Assasins? But then again, they won't benefit from her martyrdom. Perhaps with the aforementioned Repentia?
As for looks, the GW one comes down to the head for me. Mix Velma with the Mouth of Sauron... no good.
I remember reading in a couple of novels that the dialogus frequently wear very nice clothing, both to fit in with the nobles they're proselytizing to, and to impress the lower classes. Frequently they also have access to things like personal forcefields, armored cloth, ect. So, in theory any model of a woman in an evening gown would work.
As for them reliably dying, I plan on using mine as annoyingly as possible. Run them into combat by themselves to tie up shooting, block charges, ect. Just generally get in the way of things.
You do get an act of faith in opponents turn with the new stratagem in CA not sure why you don’t think so. Charge her and die then spend a cp and at end of phase you can use an act of faith in a 2+ during opponents turn. Makes for interesting things
I'm pretty sure you get the AoF at the end of whatever phase the character dies in, regardless of whose turn it is.
Anyway, here's what I'm using currently... so much better than the stock model IMO. I should point out that they were painted and based by Captain Brown of these forums, not be me, and acquired by trade. I had planned to strip and repaint them, but I really love the way they look and can't bring myself to do it. They both blend nicely with my fledgling Inquisition force (red and black) and stand out sharply among my Sisters (green and white). If I need more, I have plenty of arm-holding-book bits to work from.
I am decidedly not sold on this Dialogus idea. It requires immense cooperation from the enemy to get an AoF a turn or two after I really had an actual use for one.
Basically, I don't think the AoF to be gained from martyrdom on dialogi will contribute to the determination of the victor.
I dunno. Get a shooty unit in optimal firing ramge of something. Shoot normally which could do some damage. Charge in dialogi who will most likely die, have same shooty squad shoot their target again. Worst case scenario the dialogus survives and the target either has to fall back to free up or try to kill her in shoot/assault which might save the shooty unit from being shot at/assaulted. Either way, you can have a single squad firing 3 times.
Can you imagine this with retributors or any sizeable squad with some bells and whistles?
have people found the gemini help or just a wast of points? i know its nice being able to move her around the board and not get tied to a spot if one of them lives when celistine dies. also for ITC missions and celistine giving up kingslayer has anyone used gemini to help mitigate that?
MacPhail wrote: I'm pretty sure you get the AoF at the end of whatever phase the character dies in, regardless of whose turn it is.
Anyway, here's what I'm using currently... so much better than the stock model IMO. I should point out that they were painted and based by Captain Brown of these forums, not be me, and acquired by trade. I had planned to strip and repaint them, but I really love the way they look and can't bring myself to do it. They both blend nicely with my fledgling Inquisition force (red and black) and stand out sharply among my Sisters (green and white). If I need more, I have plenty of arm-holding-book bits to work from.
Spoiler:
MacPhail,
Never thought I would see those models again. The acolyte with the torch was never finished.
IVIOOSE wrote: have people found the gemini help or just a wast of points? i know its nice being able to move her around the board and not get tied to a spot if one of them lives when celistine dies. also for ITC missions and celistine giving up kingslayer has anyone used gemini to help mitigate that?
The consensus is that two Gemini are good in a pure sisters list, but if you are running soup or just adding her as a detachment, then you want to have only 1.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: I dunno. Get a shooty unit in optimal firing ramge of something. Shoot normally which could do some damage. Charge in dialogi who will most likely die, have same shooty squad shoot their target again. Worst case scenario the dialogus survives and the target either has to fall back to free up or try to kill her in shoot/assault which might save the shooty unit from being shot at/assaulted. Either way, you can have a single squad firing 3 times.
Can you imagine this with retributors or any sizeable squad with some bells and whistles?
Under that logic, an Imagifier is more efficient since she'd grant 3 times the additional shooting over a 6 turn game for twice the price, and she doesn't have to die for it, and still has the option to die to get one for sure. And as is probably apparent, I think Imagifiers are terrible.
The thing with the Dialgous suicide charge is that it won't add anything strategically valuable for the cost. The enemy doesn't have any incentive to kill her, and she doesn't do anything if she doesn't die. She's also not fast enough to kill herself. In any condition, by the time she dies, the enemy will have had plenty of opportunity to destroy the striking arm of our force, and will probably have had to in order to get to her. She's not going to be able to turn defeat into victory.
As I see it, the stratagem has 2 functions:
1: When Celestine dies for good, use the strategem to give myself an added punch that turn, to keep up my momentum or break the enemy's.
2: When the backfield gets ganked by a deep-strike, I get a counter-blow from my Canoness, allowing me to either come back to deal with the deep strikers or redouble my offensive to push through to victory, as the situation requires.
Building my list around it's existence seems like a waste of effort.
Also, it honestly isn't that efficient. An Imperial Guard Platoon Commander, for 20 points without additional CP cost, can issue an order every turn to an IG squad, which is 5+ times the effectiveness. Even accounting for the fact that Orders are less powerful than Acts of Faith, a Dialogus just doesn't compare. And Platoon Commanders are decidedly inefficient and honestly terrible.
i found the diaglous to be most useful when riding inside vehicles. when they kill it and you roll that 1 for getting out i just kill her and then use it to shoot the unit that got out if they did not kill them or something else in the army to re-position or shoot
The lack of incentive to shoot her is the entire point. Fir a mere 15 points, youve got a sacrificial unit that has the possibility for martyrdom.
Say youve got even just a BSS squad kitted out with special weapons in an immolator or even a rhino with a few extra bodies.
Trundle on up beside some high value target, fire away at it. If it doesnt go down, throw the cheap martyr at it and most likely finish it off with more shooting with martyrdom.
It is very situational, but also a nasty little trick to pull out on a pinch.
Think of her less as a unit and more of a 15pt upgrade to a unit that can help larger squads in morale and potentially throw a wildcard spanner in an opponents plans.
The sacrificial lamb in a non Dom transport is one way. I am more fond of camping them on my backfield objectives. Either she claims an objective when I beed her too, denies it for my opponent, or they shoot her and I get a free (cp at least) AoF.
As I see it, the stratagem has 2 functions:
1: When Celestine dies for good, use the strategem to give myself an added punch that turn, to keep up my momentum or break the enemy's.
2: When the backfield gets ganked by a deep-strike, I get a counter-blow from my Canoness, allowing me to either come back to deal with the deep strikers or redouble my offensive to push through to victory, as the situation requires.
Building my list around it's existence seems like a waste of effort.
A possible third function... the stragem may add to the value of an Imagifier by giving her an extra AoF on the way off the board. And a possible fourth would be as the ablative wound in a transport when you know it will be destroyed.
I think the strat should be treated as a bonus rather than something you go out of your way for. Picking up excess characters is just giving away kill points and if your playing ITC, giving away an easy secondary as well.
IVIOOSE wrote:i found the diaglous to be most useful when riding inside vehicles. when they kill it and you roll that 1 for getting out i just kill her and then use it to shoot the unit that got out if they did not kill them or something else in the army to re-position or shoot
They block Vanguard, so that doesn't really work.
Giantwalkingchair wrote:The lack of incentive to shoot her is the entire point. Fir a mere 15 points, youve got a sacrificial unit that has the possibility for martyrdom.
Say youve got even just a BSS squad kitted out with special weapons in an immolator or even a rhino with a few extra bodies.
Trundle on up beside some high value target, fire away at it. If it doesnt go down, throw the cheap martyr at it and most likely finish it off with more shooting with martyrdom.
It is very situational, but also a nasty little trick to pull out on a pinch.
Think of her less as a unit and more of a 15pt upgrade to a unit that can help larger squads in morale and potentially throw a wildcard spanner in an opponents plans.
"Nasty" and "Spanner" are not things I would use to describe the effect. Perhaps "mildly inconvenient" would be more apt. As I said, by the time the Dialogus gets her chance to die, you're either winning fairly considerably or the enemy has had the opportunity to ensure that you can't win.
Also worth mention, if a squad of BSS with 2 special weapons could kill the target in two shooting attacks on turn 2, then a squad of Dominions could have done it with 1 shooting attack on turn 1.
Also, fielding larger squads seems to me like a waste of points and effort. You're introducing vulnerability and decreasing flexibility and power for no added gain. Second, fielding any more than 3 BSS seems to me to also be a waste of resources. 3 gets you up to 7 CP, but beyond that I could take Dominions or Retributors to do whatever they're going to be doing better. I'd hesitate to even say the 3 for the 3 CP is even worthwhile, 5 CP seems to cover all I need them for just fine.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Drider wrote: I think the strat should be treated as a bonus rather than something you go out of your way for. Picking up excess characters is just giving away kill points and if your playing ITC, giving away an easy secondary as well.
Precisely. It's a nice strategem, but building towards it seems like building in weakness into the list.
If St.C dies for good, then you can trigger it to get a solid hit in with Divine Guidance on a Dominions unit so you don't lose momentum, or to try to blunt the enemy's momentum, since it takes a lot for them to kill St.C and you can punish them for the effort the invested in doing so.
If the enemy drops in your backfield and mauls your Rets, then the Canoness there can counter-charge and die, giving you a chance to use Hand of the Emperor to bring back your Seraphim or a Dominions squad to deal with the deep-strikers, or Divine Guidance to redouble your offensive and destroy their army core while the units they dropped in are too far away to help.
What are your experiences with regard to game length? Have your games gone all the way through to 5th or 6th game turn?
With mine I have found that most games are decided by 4th turn. Even though I don’t hold to the belief that alpha striking ensures victory (in most cases), I do believe the harder you punch / counter-punch those first two turns the more likely you’ll be victorious. That may sound obvious, but is why I don’t hold back or try to make strategies out of Martyrdom etc to occur.
It is also why I try to get to grips with my opponent turn 1 with ALL my forces and don’t leave anything on objectives. If I have any to spare end-game and the game is close then I’ll route them to objectives.
Amishprn86 wrote:With SoB? No, turn 3 and its basically done. Tho i play hyper aggressive with them.
My Harlequins always last turn 5+. Tyranids turns 4-5. Its just my SoB that are very fast games.
My turn one i have 90% my army on them lol.
Yeah, my games are over on turn 3.
Giantwalkingchair wrote:Oh no, not a thing to build around, but if touve got some points left over and no idea where to put them, it is a thought.
Ive found games last around 3 turn on average turn 4 is usually cleaning up. 5 if the dice gods are unkind to both players.
Considering that it costs a CP too, I'd pass on it. 15 points would be better spent on Storm Bolters for tanks.
As a rule, I think buying single model units that do nothing useful is basically being a detriment to the force, since it costs a deployment drop. Going first immensely improves our performance.
Man, I never go first. I can't remember the last time. There's just so many drops, and then the dice abandon me, or I get seized on. Since I can't win on an alpha strike, I win on objectives and being annoyingly hard to table, and I do it about half the time.
Definitely hearing what people are saying about the Dialogus. Good food for thought.
When I go first, I don't think I have had a game last past the third turn.
Going second, I scout move my Doms out of LOS, range or otherwise (terrain dictates). So the games can last a bit longer. I have had one game go through turn 7. It was against Death Guard, I ignored Mortarion early on while killing everything else, in the end I just couldn't kill Morti, and we couldn't fail the roll for a next turn.
As for Martyrdom, I think its just a nice buff for the characters we have always taken. The Canoness and Imagifer. More and more I think they should allow Repentia to trigger it if and when the dex rolls around. If any model in the army should be trying to get Martyred its the Repentia.
dracpanzer wrote: When I go first, I don't think I have had a game last past the third turn.
Going second, I scout move my Doms out of LOS, range or otherwise (terrain dictates). So the games can last a bit longer. I have had one game go through turn 7. It was against Death Guard, I ignored Mortarion early on while killing everything else, in the end I just couldn't kill Morti, and we couldn't fail the roll for a next turn.
As for Martyrdom, I think its just a nice buff for the characters we have always taken. The Canoness and Imagifer. More and more I think they should allow Repentia to trigger it if and when the dex rolls around. If any model in the army should be trying to get Martyred its the Repentia.
Where I scout depends on the army I'm facing. Almost always at least 3 units are scouting forward, since that's what's required to outright deny the drop zone.
So 2 questions for tactical guidance for all of us-
1. Now that the number of drops isn’t as critical for going first as it used to be, how many drops is everyone dropping on average and how does it compare to your opponents?
In my 2k list I run about 750 points of Guard, so I have 15 drops (sometimes 16) and I tend to have a few more drops than most of my opponents. However, I have learned how to minimize my footprint so I don’t mind going second.
2. Assuming you are running Celestine and vanguard Immos / Repressors, are you setting up to take advantage of Celestine’s +1 invuln aura, and if so how?
For me, I tend to set up Celestine in cover on a flank close to my deployment line with 2 Scout Sentinels or a Guard squad behind her. I’ll set up my 6 Vanguard Repressors closer to the center and my target of attack but close enough to Celestine that If I don’t go first they can all vanguard to within 6” of Celestine and in some form of cover or behind a feature.
If I do go first then it’s all out attack for them.
davidgr33n wrote: So 2 questions for tactical guidance for all of us-
1. Now that the number of drops isn’t as critical for going first as it used to be, how many drops is everyone dropping on average and how does it compare to your opponents?
In my 2k list I run about 750 points of Guard, so I have 15 drops (sometimes 16) and I tend to have a few more drops than most of my opponents. However, I have learned how to minimize my footprint so I don’t mind going second.
2. Assuming you are running Celestine and vanguard Immos / Repressors, are you setting up to take advantage of Celestine’s +1 invuln aura, and if so how?
For me, I tend to set up Celestine in cover on a flank close to my deployment line with 2 Scout Sentinels or a Guard squad behind her. I’ll set up my 6 Vanguard Repressors closer to the center and my target of attack but close enough to Celestine that If I don’t go first they can all vanguard to within 6” of Celestine and in some form of cover or behind a feature.
If I do go first then it’s all out attack for them.
Very, because the +1 still adds quite a bit towards going first. I keep everyone packed into tanks and try to keep count between 6 and 9. Space Marine armies don't have a whole lot of drops, so I try my best to have fewer than they do.
Not really. I set everything up dead center right on the deployment line, so everyone is within her bubble, but that's mostly to keep my opponent guessing. During the Vanguard move, everyone disperses towards optimal targets. Usually some will be near St.C, but not really there for her aura, more to kill the enemy things.
dracpanzer wrote: When I go first, I don't think I have had a game last past the third turn.
Going second, I scout move my Doms out of LOS, range or otherwise (terrain dictates). So the games can last a bit longer. I have had one game go through turn 7. It was against Death Guard, I ignored Mortarion early on while killing everything else, in the end I just couldn't kill Morti, and we couldn't fail the roll for a next turn.
As for Martyrdom, I think its just a nice buff for the characters we have always taken. The Canoness and Imagifer. More and more I think they should allow Repentia to trigger it if and when the dex rolls around. If any model in the army should be trying to get Martyred its the Repentia.
Where I scout depends on the army I'm facing. Almost always at least 3 units are scouting forward, since that's what's required to outright deny the drop zone.
Agreed, I never scout directly forward when going second, I tend to scatter to LOS terrain if possible and attempt to channel possible drops into places I feel they will do the least damage and can be quickly dealt with. However I don't like to sacrifice the weight of the Dom rush to do so. I may not be going first, but I like my strongest push intact even if it has to come later in the game.
Speaking of Guard, and St. Celestine's aura, has anyone tried Bullgryns with the +2 to saves Shield? With the Astropath, you can get them to 1+ 3++.
I know that they are much slower than her, but with clever deployment, and/or a transport vehicle, they seem like they could be a highly durable meat shield that hits fairly hard.
Ok, so i love Sly's rules and i hate Exorcist rules, so i was thinking of taking a small Heavy Detachment with Sly and 3 Tanks (or Artillery) .
IYO what would be some good tanks? I havent done any of the math on any of them, but i'm asking B.c there are 2 ways i can go about this.
1) 3 long range AT units and my SOB can be flamers/SB's/HB's
2) Long range AI and my SoB can have Meltas (still some SB's but more of a Dom Melta list).
I've been really enjoying a pair of Hellhounds and a Devil Dog in my detachment (Outriders instead of Spearhead). It sticks with the flavor of the army, too.
Just make sure to get those Hellhounds up the field and away from your lines!
Paimon wrote: Speaking of Guard, and St. Celestine's aura, has anyone tried Bullgryns with the +2 to saves Shield? With the Astropath, you can get them to 1+ 3++.
I know that they are much slower than her, but with clever deployment, and/or a transport vehicle, they seem like they could be a highly durable meat shield that hits fairly hard.
I can barely keep a Seraphim squad close to Celestine using AoF. You would be gimping Celestine quite a bit anchoring her to a Bullgryn squad.
Purifying Tempest wrote: I've been really enjoying a pair of Hellhounds and a Devil Dog in my detachment (Outriders instead of Spearhead). It sticks with the flavor of the army, too.
Just make sure to get those Hellhounds up the field and away from your lines!
I would rather just take Doms in a Immolator than Hellhounds. But Devildogs is something i didnt think of.
They are the Assault D3 Multi-Meltas right? Thats a good iea for Catachan, but since they are 24" i again would just take immolators, i wanted long range vehicles. (sometime i dont have ATM)
PanzerLeader wrote: I’d go long range anti tank. It’s a capability that Sisters lack on their own and if you’re bringing in allies, it’s a great way to supplement.
Since you’d be locked into the catachan trait with Sly, I’d probably take 2 Leman Russes with Battle cannons and a manticore.
I'd just outright go 3 Manticores. High S, Long Range, NLOS; pretty much strictly better than the Russ. The Russ does benefit more from the Catachan trait, though. Alternatively, 3x Command Tanks in a Supreme Command detachment.
So I played in an 18 man RTT this weekend. We were using the mission set for the GBU. The GBU is a large 1 day themed RTT around here. It usually draws around 50 people.
The primary mission was end game objectives. There were 2 objectives in my deployment zone worth 1 point to me, 2 objectives in no ones land worth 2 points each to, and 2 objectives in his deployment zone worth 3 points each to me.
The secondary mission was 1 for 1 kill points.
The bonus points where -
Keep them out of your deployment zone
Kill their highest PL troop unit (My list gave this up automatically)
Keep your highest PL unit live (Celestine, lol).
His list was roughly 2ish wave serpents, 1x falcon, a wave serpent, some spiders, a bunch of guardians, a farseer, and autarch, some shinning spears, and rangers.
I don’t remember if I won the roll to go first or second only that I went second.
His turn one was underwhelming. Between really bad dice rolls on his to wound rolls and my Repressors making most of their 5++s he did 2 or 3 points of damage. He did kill a Diaglous which allowed Celestine to move + advance and then heroic into a unit of Warp spiders, which wiped them out.
My turn one was brutal. I killed the second unit of warp spiders, a wave serpent, got the other wave to 1 wound, and killed a unit of gaurdains.
All my repressors die in his turn 2. My turn two I deal with last wave serpant, a unit of rangers, and kill some guardians.
Nothing eventful happens on his turn 3.
On my turn 3 my acro flagents multi charge his line and wipe them out.
From After that it was just picking up strangers and getting my units in range to jump on objectives end game. I win 19-16.
Game 2 was vs Necrons.
Not really much to say here, Necrons just don’t have it right now. They are too slow, don’t do enough damage, and don’t have any staying power. I tabled him turn 4 for max points.
Game 3 vs Black legion.
This mission was progressive objectives for the primary, hold the middle for secondary, and the bonus points were Warlord, kill the highest PL unit, and line breaker.
He was running roughly 2x Helldrakes, 3x units of chosen in a rhino, Abby, a las preditor, a a Demolisher, 5x Terminators, and then I think some other HQ.
I lose the roll to go first but scout up on a few objectives.
Turn one he does a lot of damage to 2 Repressors and locks up a heavy bolter squad.
My turn one I kill a rhino, a unit of chosen, a Helldrake, cripple and tie up his Demolisher. I also hold all three objectives.
His turn two he blows up 1 or 2 repressors and ties up more heavy bolters with the other hell drake. I take a out predator some some seraphim and tie up the demolisher again.
From here on out I’m just picking off massive parts of his army each turn and not taking much damage in return. We call it on 5 when he only has a rhino left. I win 30-1.
I wound up going 3-0 and finishing 3rd because I couldn’t max game 1. Oh well not the end of the world. I was happy to be able to go 3-0 with pure sisters.
Some thoughts - Once again the relic sword is really good. Celestine near a priest with +1 attack is 8 attacks on the charge which is crazy. I’m now at something like 8-50 on Imagifer 4+s. I might just drop them for a 4th unit of heavy bolters. I keep thinking that they will eventually roll average but I doubt that at this point.
Has anyone tried or seen merit mixing your squads of dominions with storm bolters and melta since you can split fire now. That way not all of one die when a tank goes
I'm having trouble accepting the 8th Ed rules for Sisters. It's no longer any surprise to me that GW switch around unit point values and effectiveness in order to encourage buying of new models and shelving what used to be the best things to deploy, but I feel like the latest changes are a step too far.
In almost all circumstances, SBs and HBs are preferable over other Sisters weapons. They've switched to dakka.
As a Sisters player that kinda takes away from the awesome fluffy flamethrowing heart of the army. I'm going to be running army lists now as gimped effectiveness, until the some FAQs or the next edition comes along to turn things around again
Casbyness wrote: I'm having trouble accepting the 8th Ed rules for Sisters. It's no longer any surprise to me that GW switch around unit point values and effectiveness in order to encourage buying of new models and shelving what used to be the best things to deploy, but I feel like the latest changes are a step too far.
In almost all circumstances, SBs and HBs are preferable over other Sisters weapons. They've switched to dakka.
As a Sisters player that kinda takes away from the awesome fluffy flamethrowing heart of the army. I'm going to be running army lists now as gimped effectiveness, until the some FAQs or the next edition comes along to turn things around again
At least HB's have always been a thing for us. I got most of my Sisters models before they even released the SB model and I had 3 when 8ed dropped. I now have 45. I miss my flamers, but I still have them in case things change. If they do, I now have all of the different weapons covered.
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IVIOOSE wrote: Has anyone tried or seen merit mixing your squads of dominions with storm bolters and melta since you can split fire now. That way not all of one die when a tank goes
I dont run even half my Doms with meltas, but they do ride double. I give the superior a SB even in my MG squads, so my mixed squads run with 4 mg's and 6 sb's. Even if I want to shoot the melta's I still have 2 sb's inside to go with the one on top. 12 shots plus the hvy flamer still gives me some anti infantry shots if a tank is my preferred target.
Rolling 340 dice is not how tou make friends. Not to mention its not efficient. 85 storm bolters require 85 sisters. Thats 935pts before paying for the weapons. Not to mention thats a lot of drops to put down: 17. How much effort/time does it take to manouvre 17 squads of dominions to bring all their fire on a single target? You seriously want to commit 1000+pts to taking down...a rhino?
Not saying remove melta, just showing the power of other weapons compare.
But This means for me instead of taking 4 units of of pure Melta, i might remove 2 units and spread out more SB's and Meltas across my army like @IVIOOSE was asking about.
This is for Pure SOB that is, but i was thinking about adding Sly and 3 Tanks for fun, those could replace all my Melta and just take SB's everywhere else.
Amishprn86 wrote: Flamers ATM are hit or miss. I agree that SB and HBs are better atm.
With chaos, nids, and infantry spam getting going, flamers are not hit or miss, they are a cheap way to take care of both issues. Auto hit, decent strength, etc. Add in heavy flamers and immolator flamers, also very strong options. (Immolator flamer screens are really good at discouraging assaults lol.)
Other than overwatch, a Flamer will get 3.5 strength 4 hits on average to a unit within 8".
The Storm Bolter will get 2.6 of exactly the same type of hit (str 4 AP0) except it can do this at 12", and can still get 1.3 hits out to 24", which is three times the range of the flamer.
The next contributing factor is the points cost. I think the Flamer is 9, right? So that's 4.5 storm bolters.
4.5 Storm Bolters for the price of one Flamer is 12 hits at 8" to the flamer's 3.5, then it's 12 hits from 8-12" from the Flamer's zero, and then it's 6 hits from 12-24" where the flamer is also zero. It's just no contest, now that storm bolters are so cheap.
So for my LVO list, I plan on running 3 repressors with 6 doms inside. 3x 4 meltas, 3x 4 SB. So 1 of each in each. I'm still struggling with the idea of melding them all to be 6 identical units of 2x melta, 2x SB. I haven't ever ran them that way before and my only justification not to is if there's a midfield objective, I can drop off a squad of doms with 4x SB and they can sit midfield and still lay down fire while the repressor zooms away to get the meltas into closer range. If I did that with a mixed squad i would be wasting 2x melta to sit on a point for some thumb twiddling.
5 Naked seraphim are cheaper than 5 dominion w/storm bolters (barely) and can deep strike and move 24 + 2d6 if needed. They don't have as much fire power as 5 dominions w/storm bolters but are a great throw away/harassment unit that can get anywhere within a turn.
If your looking for cheap and effective objective holders I would seriously consider a unit or two of 5 naked seraphim.
Rynner wrote: 5 Naked seraphim are cheaper than 5 dominion w/storm bolters (barely) and can deep strike and move 24 + 2d6 if needed. They don't have as much fire power as 5 dominions w/storm bolters but are a great throw away/harassment unit that can get anywhere within a turn.
If your looking for cheap and effective objective holders I would seriously consider a unit or two of 5 naked seraphim.
That's assuming you're blowing your 2+ AoF on them and not your Inferno Seraphim.
You don't have to blow the 2+ act of faith on them. You can deep strike them onto objective or behind LOS terrian for an objective grab the turn later.
what i have noticed in testing is that everyone targets the melta repressors then kills the melta sisters after the tank blows up. i usually have all of my repressors on one flank then seraphim on another flank with some BA captians so all of my storm bolters and meltas are always together moving up the board. my back field and mid field is covered up with guard and scouts. i have noticed it is nice having scouts to push back other armies that scout so we can still move repressors in the scout phase otherwise they stay locked in deployment.
IVIOOSE wrote: what i have noticed in testing is that everyone targets the melta repressors then kills the melta sisters after the tank blows up. i usually have all of my repressors on one flank then seraphim on another flank with some BA captians so all of my storm bolters and meltas are always together moving up the board. my back field and mid field is covered up with guard and scouts. i have noticed it is nice having scouts to push back other armies that scout so we can still move repressors in the scout phase otherwise they stay locked in deployment.
I have not noticed this. Celestine and her Seraphim draw much more fire than my Immolators and Dominions. They're faster, and they're actively disrupting high-value targets on turn 1.
IVIOOSE wrote: what i have noticed in testing is that everyone targets the melta repressors then kills the melta sisters after the tank blows up. i usually have all of my repressors on one flank then seraphim on another flank with some BA captians so all of my storm bolters and meltas are always together moving up the board. my back field and mid field is covered up with guard and scouts. i have noticed it is nice having scouts to push back other armies that scout so we can still move repressors in the scout phase otherwise they stay locked in deployment.
Yeah at this point I'm honestly shocked if I have a single repressor left alive by the top 3. Everyone always kills them first and if they don't they complain how op they are. My Seraphim, The Saint, and my Heavy Bolters do far more damage than my Repressors dominions.
While I don't love the idea of 700ish point distraction units the more and more I've played the more and more I've come to accept Repressor Dominions are pretty much just that.
IVIOOSE wrote: what i have noticed in testing is that everyone targets the melta repressors then kills the melta sisters after the tank blows up. i usually have all of my repressors on one flank then seraphim on another flank with some BA captians so all of my storm bolters and meltas are always together moving up the board. my back field and mid field is covered up with guard and scouts. i have noticed it is nice having scouts to push back other armies that scout so we can still move repressors in the scout phase otherwise they stay locked in deployment.
Yeah at this point I'm honestly shocked if I have a single repressor left alive by the top 3. Everyone always kills them first and if they don't they complain how op they are. My Seraphim, The Saint, and my Heavy Bolters do far more damage than my Repressors dominions.
While I don't love the idea of 700ish point distraction units the more and more I've played the more and more I've come to accept Repressor Dominions are pretty much just that.
The way i see the games going is similar to that. If they focus on Celestine and the Seraphim, then my Repressors live and and do serious damage. If they focus on the Repressors then Celestine and the Seraphim do. And the Retributors are just constantly slinging lead and almost always ignored. I see it as I'm presenting Threat A and Threat B, choose your defeat cause you can't kill them all.
I run sisters in an Inquisition army alongside IG and sometimes Space Marines, mixing and matching depending on what I'm playing.
I pretty much run some combination of:
Supreme Command of Inquisition - Greyfax and 2 Inquisitors
or
Vanguard of Inquisition - Greyfax with 3 Acolytes
Outrider of Sisters - Celestine and melta doms in repressors
or
Battalion of Sisters - Celestine/Cannoness with melta BSS in repressors and a HB Ret squad.
Battalion of Tallarns, Infantry and tanks that are mobile
Battalion of Scions, deep striking plasma/melta/hot shots
Battalion of Marines, Mostly Captain, Lieutenant, 3 Sniper squads, sometimes a Dev squad
IVIOOSE wrote: what i have noticed in testing is that everyone targets the melta repressors then kills the melta sisters after the tank blows up. i usually have all of my repressors on one flank then seraphim on another flank with some BA captians so all of my storm bolters and meltas are always together moving up the board. my back field and mid field is covered up with guard and scouts. i have noticed it is nice having scouts to push back other armies that scout so we can still move repressors in the scout phase otherwise they stay locked in deployment.
Yeah at this point I'm honestly shocked if I have a single repressor left alive by the top 3. Everyone always kills them first and if they don't they complain how op they are. My Seraphim, The Saint, and my Heavy Bolters do far more damage than my Repressors dominions.
While I don't love the idea of 700ish point distraction units the more and more I've played the more and more I've come to accept Repressor Dominions are pretty much just that.
I think if depends on how much of you army is Dominions in tanks.
My entire army is Dominions in tanks, and they do loads more damage than my Rets or rear-line support ever will. My rear line units only real claim is "prevented deep strikers", which makes me wonder if I even want to have Rets/Exorcists at all. I could probably drop the entire rearguard and go just with Dominions and tanks, but I'm too afraid of deep strikers to try that.
If you're only fielding 3 units, though, then they don't have the weight or threat. Your army will hit 1-2 if you have a large weight of Seraphim, or possibly even 1-2-3 or 1-3 if you're really heavy on BSS. If your attack is broken up, you'll leave your units stranded out in front of a largely intact enemy line. If your attack is concentrated, then there ideally won't be enough left of the enemy to retaliate meaningfully.
It also depends on which units are doing the supporting. My Seraphim are deployed with intent to screen and protect Dominions units foremost, but if you're using your Dominions units to cover for regular-speed Seraphim, then they're going to be suffering high casualties.
It may actually be better to run Seraphim screened by Dominions, now that I think about it, because it scales better. I play mostly at 1500, at which my 1 squad of Seraphim and Celestine are generally enough to screen for my other troops. But It's impossible to include additional Seraphim in that tactical role, so the effectiveness of them in that role decreases drastically as we go up in points. However, Seraphim his on turn 2 instead of turn 2, which is another turn of increased exposure to fire, and thus possible further degradation.
IVIOOSE wrote: what i have noticed in testing is that everyone targets the melta repressors then kills the melta sisters after the tank blows up. i usually have all of my repressors on one flank then seraphim on another flank with some BA captians so all of my storm bolters and meltas are always together moving up the board. my back field and mid field is covered up with guard and scouts. i have noticed it is nice having scouts to push back other armies that scout so we can still move repressors in the scout phase otherwise they stay locked in deployment.
I have yet to play a game where I wouldn't take the central position. With the Vanguard move I can focus either flank, both, or crush the middle. It also tends to make my opponent deploy to cover all three threats, or turtle. Either way they are giving me the advantage to either take them apart in pieces or wither in a ready made kill zone.
That's the similar reasoning to why I like taking a shooty knight. adds in something else that can get shot at and makes it a Threat A, Threat B, Threat C equation. Not to mention feels more relevant than at shooting than exorcists or rets.
so having played a total of 2 game of 8th so far I'm gonna be playing my 3rd this thursday against a good friend of mine who is running nurgel. gonna be a 2k point list and I wanted to get some points for anyone who has played against plague marines and such. (in short no idea what im doing and tossing stuff against the wall seeing what sticks)
Nurgles a tough nut to crack and depending on what your opponent is fielding, can have an absurd amount of mortal wounds. Play the mission and try to focus down when you need to engage.
One thing you can consider is running basic Doms for some of your deep strike protection.
Assuming you're running a pure sisters list:
Battallion of Sisters with 3 BSS with Heavy bolters. They sit on your back line
Spearhead of Melta Doms - 3 squads that ride in repressors to blast heavy stuff.
Between the two detachments, put in some plain, un upgraded Dom squads with bolters. 10ppm and they get a vanguard move. Take a bunch and let them Vanguard move to deny a big area of the table from deep strike and pad out your tanks and Celestine so they don't get alphad easily. If you have the points, 10 points per squad for storm bolters could be worth it.
Take like 5-6 Dom squads with bolters just for this. Might be good
One thing you can consider is running basic Doms for some of your deep strike protection.
Assuming you're running a pure sisters list:
Battallion of Sisters with 3 BSS with Heavy bolters. They sit on your back line
Spearhead of Melta Doms - 3 squads that ride in repressors to blast heavy stuff.
Between the two detachments, put in some plain, un upgraded Dom squads with bolters. 10ppm and they get a vanguard move. Take a bunch and let them Vanguard move to deny a big area of the table from deep strike and pad out your tanks and Celestine so they don't get alphad easily. If you have the points, 10 points per squad for storm bolters could be worth it.
Take like 5-6 Dom squads with bolters just for this. Might be good
I already do that.
Last night, at 2k, I ran:
Celestine
Seraphim
Dominions+Immolator
Dominions+Immolator
I would ideally trade the Exorcist and Penitent Engine for Retributors and upgrade the last transport tank to an Immolator, but I don't have that many Rets. I honestly don't like the performance of either the Exorcist or the Penitent Engine, but we've gone over that already. The Rets can't say to have achieved more than the Exorcist, though, which did honestly okay.
The entire spearhead is extremely underwhelming, but only Rets and Exorcists can reach from my backfield to the enemy. There's definitely no reason for the Penitent Engine to be there, it's just bad. Same for the Rhino, though there was a logical, if ill advised, reason for it's presence when the first iteration of the list was written.
I've not been a huge fan of flamers on sisters, but I have been a feeling a bit of love from flamers on vehicles.
Immolation Flamer is a 2d6 heavy flamer with a range that threatens just about any assaulter in the game. The 1d6 str 4 at 8 inches just makes it feel more forced for less threat to the opponent. About all I do with the normal flamer is a 8-9 normal BSS with heavy flamer, flamer, and combi-flamer to clog the field behind my initial wave of mechanized units. The goal is to make them one of the first things my opponent has to slog through after fighting through the armor, dominions, and seraphim.
As stated above, I also play with the Hellhound tank, which does not have a transport capacity, but has a lot of extra threat with its flamer at 1 extra strength... and with Catachan, it can help normalize some bad flamer rolls. My ability to roll 2s and 3s with 2d6 is almost as strong as my ability to roll 10s and 11s. Either excess promethium reserves... or we done used it all. No middle ground!
IMO i would change flamer and blast to be a Rule in the BRB and have it read "When a Flamer or a Blast shoots at a unit, if that unit size is 5 or less, you get D6 (or 3) auto hits. If that same unit size is 6 or more, you get 6 (3) auto hits."
IMO i would change flamer and blast to be a Rule in the BRB and have it read "When a Flamer or a Blast shoots at a unit, if that unit size is 5 or less, you get D6 (or 3) auto hits. If that same unit size is 6 or more, you get 6 (3) auto hits."
This would give them more of a dedicated role.
My big issue is the cost. Too many points for an 8” range weapon.
As much as I WANT to play pure Sisters, there’s just too many gaps for me not to take allies. I’ve always taken Dominions and Celestine, mixed in with Seraphims and plain Battle Sisters.
With the current options, I take about 1250 pts of Sisters mixed in with Tallarn Guard. My Tallarn are there with the sole purpose to outflank my opponent with plasma and tanks, which works well with my Doms and Celestine bringing pressure turn 1.
What are peoples best suggestions to deal with Tyranid beasties? Particularly hive Tyrants and their +4 save with occasional re-rolls? Or worse, even Magnus?
AdmiralHalsey wrote: What are peoples best suggestions to deal with Tyranid beasties? Particularly hive Tyrants and their +4 save with occasional re-rolls? Or worse, even Magnus?
I'm not certain. St. C managed to beat a Hive Tyrant in CQC the other day, but it was kind of because he had a really bad round of saves, and otherwise there wasn't much I could do to him besides chase him away.He didn't try to come near my meltaguns, but with regeneration and his invul and his re-rolls, my Seraphim weren't killing him. St.C kept him occupied, though, but if there were two one would probably have been running lose.
I havent had trouble with the big beasties, meltaguns and multimeltas have always done the heavy lifting and even exorcists have contributed to scratching the odd hive tyrant. Depends on your opponents dice though. Hot dice and that invo will be a pain. As i was saying, i usually just throw a few melta and exorcist into it then finish off with a relic cannoness or Celestine. This has been effective for myself.
Oberron wrote: so having played a total of 2 game of 8th so far I'm gonna be playing my 3rd this thursday against a good friend of mine who is running nurgel. gonna be a 2k point list and I wanted to get some points for anyone who has played against plague marines and such. (in short no idea what im doing and tossing stuff against the wall seeing what sticks)
4x Sister of Silence [Executioner Greatblade]
Sister Superior
idea is bum rush with doms, repressors, and celestine, custodes follow up for assault, sos unit because i want one.
Well thoughts on my list and I can do a battle report if anyone wants.
Custodes + land raider where a god send, custodes keeping some DG termies busy and land raider parking ontop of an objective blasting w/e got close much needed high toughness great saves, Sos unit got wiped out before doing anything so a best where a destraction unit, which is fine but can just get a better unit to do that for cheaper with sisters, they need a vehicle if im gonna take them again. doms with meltas in repressorswhere a blast but i feel like i got mixed results from the damage from the meltas vs the damage the repressor itself delt to a few tanks, the Venerable Contemptor Dreadnought was there and did alright soaking wounds and being a tougher target than the repressors. I failed my opening AOF so only had celestines bonus one for extra momvement so i pushed her up with the dom squads and the seraphim got left behind and wiped out by the enemy's DS termies before my custodes got there to save them.
I think I'll drop the sos unit and try to find more points somewhere for either another Venerable Contemptor Dreadnought or another dom squad in repressor
I bet the Deny the Witch for 1 CP helps a ton vs Magnus. You get to strip that Weaver of Fates off of him at a 4+ instead of a Deny the Witch pissing contest vs a model that wins ties and has +2 to his casting roll. In a pinch, you can even throw a CP reroll to get two shots to deny it.
Magnus has the toughness to soak a lot of volume, so yeah, it really comes down to melta and exorcists. The key to the big guys is to not focus all of your firepower into that guy at the expense of getting beat by the rest of the other guy's army.
Sisters probably have a leg up with Melta spam and Deny without question on a 4+, a lot of other players vs Magnus would probably love to have that option
Oberron wrote: so having played a total of 2 game of 8th so far I'm gonna be playing my 3rd this thursday against a good friend of mine who is running nurgel. gonna be a 2k point list and I wanted to get some points for anyone who has played against plague marines and such. (in short no idea what im doing and tossing stuff against the wall seeing what sticks)
4x Sister of Silence [Executioner Greatblade]
Sister Superior
idea is bum rush with doms, repressors, and celestine, custodes follow up for assault, sos unit because i want one.
Well thoughts on my list and I can do a battle report if anyone wants.
Custodes + land raider where a god send, custodes keeping some DG termies busy and land raider parking ontop of an objective blasting w/e got close much needed high toughness great saves, Sos unit got wiped out before doing anything so a best where a destraction unit, which is fine but can just get a better unit to do that for cheaper with sisters, they need a vehicle if im gonna take them again. doms with meltas in repressorswhere a blast but i feel like i got mixed results from the damage from the meltas vs the damage the repressor itself delt to a few tanks, the Venerable Contemptor Dreadnought was there and did alright soaking wounds and being a tougher target than the repressors. I failed my opening AOF so only had celestines bonus one for extra momvement so i pushed her up with the dom squads and the seraphim got left behind and wiped out by the enemy's DS termies before my custodes got there to save them.
I think I'll drop the sos unit and try to find more points somewhere for either another Venerable Contemptor Dreadnought or another dom squad in repressor
It sounds like you played an elite SM army of some flavor. Being that Sisters with meltaguns are scary and can wreck elite armies, they targeted those units (Meltas in Repressors and the Seraphim). I think Custodes don’t really mesh well with Sisters- they are tough as nails but don’t bring the scary weaponry or the weight of fire that Sisters bring. I would either bring all Sisters or go with an ally that can bring more Dakka and let the Sisters do the heavy lifting.
Oberron wrote: so having played a total of 2 game of 8th so far I'm gonna be playing my 3rd this thursday against a good friend of mine who is running nurgel. gonna be a 2k point list and I wanted to get some points for anyone who has played against plague marines and such. (in short no idea what im doing and tossing stuff against the wall seeing what sticks)
4x Sister of Silence [Executioner Greatblade]
Sister Superior
idea is bum rush with doms, repressors, and celestine, custodes follow up for assault, sos unit because i want one.
Well thoughts on my list and I can do a battle report if anyone wants.
Custodes + land raider where a god send, custodes keeping some DG termies busy and land raider parking ontop of an objective blasting w/e got close much needed high toughness great saves, Sos unit got wiped out before doing anything so a best where a destraction unit, which is fine but can just get a better unit to do that for cheaper with sisters, they need a vehicle if im gonna take them again. doms with meltas in repressorswhere a blast but i feel like i got mixed results from the damage from the meltas vs the damage the repressor itself delt to a few tanks, the Venerable Contemptor Dreadnought was there and did alright soaking wounds and being a tougher target than the repressors. I failed my opening AOF so only had celestines bonus one for extra momvement so i pushed her up with the dom squads and the seraphim got left behind and wiped out by the enemy's DS termies before my custodes got there to save them.
I think I'll drop the sos unit and try to find more points somewhere for either another Venerable Contemptor Dreadnought or another dom squad in repressor
It sounds like you played an elite SM army of some flavor. Being that Sisters with meltaguns are scary and can wreck elite armies, they targeted those units (Meltas in Repressors and the Seraphim). I think Custodes don’t really mesh well with Sisters- they are tough as nails but don’t bring the scary weaponry or the weight of fire that Sisters bring. I would either bring all Sisters or go with an ally that can bring more Dakka and let the Sisters do the heavy lifting.
Played against death guard, from what I remember he ran the following don't remember the names for most the units)
Poxwalkers 20 strong that I wiped down to 1 by the end of my 1st Turn
Two rhinos with 10 marines
2 feted bloat drones
1 plague burst crawler
5 blight lords
1 lord of contagion
Plague caster
Sorcerer
And a noxious blight bringer
I played in a 20 man "40 PL / 1 Patrol" tourney yesterday and took first with a 4-0. I tied 4-0 with another guy but won due to VPs collected in the last game.
I ran the following:
Everything was maxed out wit Melta with twin flamers on the Repressors. I played against White Scars, Nids, Dark Angels, and Primaris. As it turns out, sisters are disgustingly low pointed in PL games and most people were not happy with what I could bring for 40 PL. No game lasted past top of 3 and I tabled the DA guy top of 2 in less than 15 minutes. He was very unhappy. First place was $50 to the shop so I got the new Demon's codex.
Keep the faith.
I'm going to go paint some bloodletters now. As you were.
SoB are IMO the best PL army. With Doms spam with 5 meltas, fire points rhinos, Celestine, and scouts on literally everything. How does anyone compare?
Has anyone tried mixing their dominion squads at all? I was planning on 2 units with 3 melta and 2 storm bolters or is it better maybe to go 3 storm bolters and two melta in three squads.
At the beginning of 8th I was mixing Melta with SBs in the same squads. I run all SBs in my squads now, only because my Guard forces carry my melta / plasma weapons.
When I go back to pure Sisters I’ll still mix my squads. If you have 3 squads of pure meltas and 3 squads of pure stormbolters you know which squads will be the priority target. If you have them split it makes it harder on your opponent. There’s no reason not to split them since you can split Fire now.
I dont always run dominion squads, but when i do, i dedicate them to melta.
I run bss as mixed squads. Usually a heavy flamer and meltagun....or multimelta and flamer, depending on their role.
Finished second at the Goldensprue Cup this weekend. I’ll do a full AAR later when I’m back at a proper computer with some time.
Big adjustment I want to do before LVO though is add a little flexibility to my core list. Which of these two units would you prefer for melee support: 8 flagellants, Priest and Rhino or 9 Death Company with bolters, 2 powerfists and a powersword?
I've been testing out Arco-flagelletns and liking them, but they are not very effective against power Armor where DCA would be. I dont have problems with Power armor tho and thats why i'm playing them with a Priest in a Rhino.
chimeara wrote: What's a solid choice for a knight in a sisters army? I'm new to this style of army so I don't really know what they need out of a knight.
Sisters lack in dependable long range antitank, which a Knight Crusader could give you. It also can do close combat damage with its stomp attacks.
chimeara wrote: What's a solid choice for a knight in a sisters army? I'm new to this style of army so I don't really know what they need out of a knight.
Sisters lack in dependable long range antitank, which a Knight Crusader could give you. It also can do close combat damage with its stomp attacks.
I think the problem with seraphims is T3 with a 12” bolter and negligible close combat capability. Since AoF can’t keep up with them I think more than one Seraphim Unit would be seeing diminishing returns.
IVIOOSE wrote: I played seraphim spam at the renegade and got fourth. It is a real thing if you know how to use it.
I would put up my Repressor Doms against your Seraspam any day. I know how to use Seraphim too, but You get a lot more mileage out of the Repressor taking your hits with its T8 than Seraphim with their T3. Doms get Vanguard, you would have to sink a ton of points into Imagifers to get anything close to the amount of Alpha Repressor Doms give you for 1pt a model. Even if you did spend those points, that 4+ would leave you sadly disappointed.
Unfortunately, in my opinion, Seraphim are a one-trick pony (Inferno Pistols) that Dominions in Repressors can do more durably. Seraphim have slightly greater durability than Guardsmen with arguably less firepower due to their 12” max reach, and cost nearly 3 times as much. Don’t get me wrong, I love Seraphim and they do have a role to play, just not in spam.
I’ve got a question for my more reasonably minded Sisters players...
In another thread there has been a discussion about the chainsword and how to count its attacks. So I pose this unlikely scenario-
A Canoness takes a Power Sword and keeps her Chainsword. When she is in melee she decides to use the Power Weapon for all 4 of her attacks.
Does she get an extra (5th) attack with the Chainsword???
Argument for has been that the Chainsword rule says that “when the Bearer FIGHTS it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon” regardless of wether or not that weapon had an attack allocated it.
Thoughts???
I have my opinion but don’t want to muddy this up with my thoughts yet, I’d rather hear what you think...
IVIOOSE wrote: I played seraphim spam at the renegade and got fourth. It is a real thing if you know how to use it.
I would put up my Repressor Doms against your Seraspam any day. I know how to use Seraphim too, but You get a lot more mileage out of the Repressor taking your hits with its T8 than Seraphim with their T3. Doms get Vanguard, you would have to sink a ton of points into Imagifers to get anything close to the amount of Alpha Repressor Doms give you for 1pt a model. Even if you did spend those points, that 4+ would leave you sadly disappointed.
This. Mechanized Dominions are so much stronger than Seraphim, because they don't need Imagifiers and hit on turn 1. As I said, Seraphim are both fragile and hit on turn 2, while Dominions are far less fragile but hit on turn 1. Dominions do the same thing, but just better.
davidgr33n wrote:Unfortunately, in my opinion, Seraphim are a one-trick pony (Inferno Pistols) that Dominions in Repressors can do more durably. Seraphim have slightly greater durability than Guardsmen with arguably less firepower due to their 12” max reach, and cost nearly 3 times as much. Don’t get me wrong, I love Seraphim and they do have a role to play, just not in spam.
I think their one-trick is "lock up tanks". They routinely pull more than their weight engaging things in assault, which preserved my Dominions that much longer. They're pretty strong too.
davidgr33n wrote: A Canoness takes a Power Sword and keeps her Chainsword. When she is in melee she decides to use the Power Weapon for all 4 of her attacks.
Does she get an extra (5th) attack with the Chainsword???
Argument for has been that the Chainsword rule says that “when the Bearer FIGHTS it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon” regardless of wether or not that weapon had an attack allocated it.
As I understand it, she can make four power sword attacks and one chainsword attack.
Early on, people were wondering if they could take a lightning claw in one hand and get an extra lightning claw attack just for holding a chainsword in the off hand, but it was made clear that that extra attack had to be a chainsword attack. I don't see anywhere that says you only get that extra attack if you made at least one attack with the chainsword.
davidgr33n wrote: A Canoness takes a Power Sword and keeps her Chainsword. When she is in melee she decides to use the Power Weapon for all 4 of her attacks.
Does she get an extra (5th) attack with the Chainsword???
Argument for has been that the Chainsword rule says that “when the Bearer FIGHTS it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon” regardless of wether or not that weapon had an attack allocated it.
As I understand it, she can make four power sword attacks and one chainsword attack.
Early on, people were wondering if they could take a lightning claw in one hand and get an extra lightning claw attack just for holding a chainsword in the off hand, but it was made clear that that extra attack had to be a chainsword attack. I don't see anywhere that says you only get that extra attack if you made at least one attack with the chainsword.
If the Canoness had just one attack and chose to use the Power Sword would she still get the chainsword attack as well? Would it matter?
IVIOOSE wrote: I played seraphim spam at the renegade and got fourth. It is a real thing if you know how to use it.
I would put up my Repressor Doms against your Seraspam any day. I know how to use Seraphim too, but You get a lot more mileage out of the Repressor taking your hits with its T8 than Seraphim with their T3. Doms get Vanguard, you would have to sink a ton of points into Imagifers to get anything close to the amount of Alpha Repressor Doms give you for 1pt a model. Even if you did spend those points, that 4+ would leave you sadly disappointed.
This. Mechanized Dominions are so much stronger than Seraphim, because they don't need Imagifiers and hit on turn 1. As I said, Seraphim are both fragile and hit on turn 2, while Dominions are far less fragile but hit on turn 1. Dominions do the same thing, but just better.
davidgr33n wrote:Unfortunately, in my opinion, Seraphim are a one-trick pony (Inferno Pistols) that Dominions in Repressors can do more durably. Seraphim have slightly greater durability than Guardsmen with arguably less firepower due to their 12” max reach, and cost nearly 3 times as much. Don’t get me wrong, I love Seraphim and they do have a role to play, just not in spam.
I think their one-trick is "lock up tanks". They routinely pull more than their weight engaging things in assault, which preserved my Dominions that much longer. They're pretty strong too.
LOL Inquisitor Lord Katherine, in one sentence you say that Seraphim are “fragile” then a few sentences later you refer to them as being “pretty strong too”, just curious if I’m reading this right?
davidgr33n wrote: A Canoness takes a Power Sword and keeps her Chainsword. When she is in melee she decides to use the Power Weapon for all 4 of her attacks.
Does she get an extra (5th) attack with the Chainsword???
Argument for has been that the Chainsword rule says that “when the Bearer FIGHTS it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon” regardless of wether or not that weapon had an attack allocated it.
As I understand it, she can make four power sword attacks and one chainsword attack.
Early on, people were wondering if they could take a lightning claw in one hand and get an extra lightning claw attack just for holding a chainsword in the off hand, but it was made clear that that extra attack had to be a chainsword attack. I don't see anywhere that says you only get that extra attack if you made at least one attack with the chainsword.
If the Canoness had just one attack and chose to use the Power Sword would she still get the chainsword attack as well? Would it matter?
IVIOOSE wrote: I played seraphim spam at the renegade and got fourth. It is a real thing if you know how to use it.
I would put up my Repressor Doms against your Seraspam any day. I know how to use Seraphim too, but You get a lot more mileage out of the Repressor taking your hits with its T8 than Seraphim with their T3. Doms get Vanguard, you would have to sink a ton of points into Imagifers to get anything close to the amount of Alpha Repressor Doms give you for 1pt a model. Even if you did spend those points, that 4+ would leave you sadly disappointed.
This. Mechanized Dominions are so much stronger than Seraphim, because they don't need Imagifiers and hit on turn 1. As I said, Seraphim are both fragile and hit on turn 2, while Dominions are far less fragile but hit on turn 1. Dominions do the same thing, but just better.
davidgr33n wrote:Unfortunately, in my opinion, Seraphim are a one-trick pony (Inferno Pistols) that Dominions in Repressors can do more durably. Seraphim have slightly greater durability than Guardsmen with arguably less firepower due to their 12” max reach, and cost nearly 3 times as much. Don’t get me wrong, I love Seraphim and they do have a role to play, just not in spam.
I think their one-trick is "lock up tanks". They routinely pull more than their weight engaging things in assault, which preserved my Dominions that much longer. They're pretty strong too.
LOL Inquisitor Lord Katherine, in one sentence you say that Seraphim are “fragile” then a few sentences later you refer to them as being “pretty strong too”, just curious if I’m reading this right?
You're reading it wrong.
I meant "strong" as is "powerful". They're a good unit, but they're very fragile, and any units after the first will always have to weather at least a round of shooting before getting to act.
There's good reason to have a single squad, because the first unit is really good, but after that they're Mech Dominions -1.
Have any Sisters armies been competitively successful without using Repressors?
I feel like they're basically the perfect example of the sort of thing people complain about when they complain about overpowered Forgeworld units and I don't want to be "that guy" who's converting an out of production Forgeworld-only unit with powerful, unique rules and an amazing statline.
Can Battle Sisters in Immolators move across the board quickly enough to reach an enemy gunline before they've torn the rest of my army apart (with the loss of efficiency of not having those units shoot out of fire ports) or would it be strictly Dominions for the vanguard move?
I'm going to say it up front, I'm not a tournament player.
The repressors seem to be useful simply because you don't have to get out before you move, so your squads have a 12" movement range, while still being able to fire. With Immolators and rhinos, you have a less mobility, as you have to scout, then get out, rather then scout move, shoot. Sure the distance is reletivly short (repressor is 12" + 12" + 12" [melta range]= 36" threat), while the immolator is (12" + 3" [disembark] +6" [infantry move] +12" (MG threat]= 33"). Assuming you don't advance of course.
So, basically you get a similar threat range, but your squad is now more exposed. And while I agree that 3" isn't much, it could come into play with a weapon as short ranged as a melta gun.
Personally, I don't see why not though. From what I understand there have been several people who swear by immo spam, though the changes to vehicle shooting in 8th has made them less effective for the heavy bolter and multi-melta roll.
I'm planning on using Repressors for my dominions, and take immolators for every other Sisters unit. With their flamers being assault, I can use them as sprint tanks to dash around and do "stuff".
Lanlaorn wrote: Everyone knows why Repressors are superior, lol, I'm wondering if it's possible to be competitive without using them.
If Sisters had dozens of other transport / deep strike / outflank options like most armies do then probably we could find other options to synergize with, but if you ask us to stop using one of the two or three units (out of like 9 real units available to pure Sisters) that make us competitive, I don’t think we would be. If you took Guilliman out of any of the dozens of Guilliman gunline builds would they be competitive?
I LOVE my Seraphim i always play them, they have so far always got into melee turn 1 or 2 and done insane damage with the Inferno Pistols.
No one shoots them when there are 4 Doms in Repressors on the table and they are next to Celestine (+1 invul and then they will have to deal with her). starting them out of LoS if possible.
Doms are great, but Seraphim are a surgical scalpel that can fit in places Doms can not, and for me that is immensely important.
Lanlaorn wrote: Have any Sisters armies been competitively successful without using Repressors?
I feel like they're basically the perfect example of the sort of thing people complain about when they complain about overpowered Forgeworld units and I don't want to be "that guy" who's converting an out of production Forgeworld-only unit with powerful, unique rules and an amazing statline.
Can Battle Sisters in Immolators move across the board quickly enough to reach an enemy gunline before they've torn the rest of my army apart (with the loss of efficiency of not having those units shoot out of fire ports) or would it be strictly Dominions for the vanguard move?
I use Immolators. [no FW in the local league where I am, at least for the time, but they've begun reconsidering that policy]. They work similarly well. You're more fragile, though, since you have to get out of it.
I have done very well. They do the same thing as Repressors, for all intents and purposes. I use a few with multimeltas and a few with flamers. Both variants I can say to have easily pulled their weight.
Lanlaorn wrote: Have any Sisters armies been competitively successful without using Repressors?
I feel like they're basically the perfect example of the sort of thing people complain about when they complain about overpowered Forgeworld units and I don't want to be "that guy" who's converting an out of production Forgeworld-only unit with powerful, unique rules and an amazing statline.
Can Battle Sisters in Immolators move across the board quickly enough to reach an enemy gunline before they've torn the rest of my army apart (with the loss of efficiency of not having those units shoot out of fire ports) or would it be strictly Dominions for the vanguard move?
I use Immolators. [no FW in the local league where I am, at least for the time, but they've begun reconsidering that policy]. They work similarly well. You're more fragile, though, since you have to get out of it.
I have done very well. They do the same thing as Repressors, for all intents and purposes. I use a few with multimeltas and a few with flamers. Both variants I can say to have easily pulled their weight.
What units do you usually load them with? All Dominators? I'm worried Battle Sisters will be too slow against a powerful gunline without that Vanguard move head start, but I'd like to use a couple Cannonesses. Thanks for sharing, I'm in a similar spot where there is no ban on FW but it's definitely frowned upon to bring their powerful units.
I honestly don't think of the Repressor when I think of forgeworld's 'big nasties', but it does have a number of advantages over the other Sororitas transports. It's price hike in chapter approved has mitigated this somewhat, as its points make it compete with the Immo only and the rhino has the affordable price thing locked down. On paper the immolator and the repressor then have some mixed advantages over each other, and while I think the repressor ultimately wins out as a transport for its ability to make otherwise fragile doms as sturdy as a vehicle, the immolator is able to deliver long-range flame attacks and therefore works as a charge deterrant. I'd still say if you aren't building your entire list around the abilities of the repressor it's still a better transport, but only just.
I don't want to have the Forge World argument here, suffice it to say that I don't want to be in the position of putting down a unit and having to explain "oh, this one is like an immolator, costs almost the same, but in exchange for a weaker flamer it fits 10 models, has more wounds, has a surprisingly good melee attack and oh, has the now unique and incredibly powerful ability to let six models shoot while inside of it."
So under that constraint, because I'm not comfortable being "that guy", I'm wondering how to put together the sisters army I've been slowly collecting for a year now, probably all Dominions in Flamer Immolators but I'd love to use Melta Immos and BSS if I thought they'd survive at all =/
I just say its an Open top Rhino that cost over 100pts and everyone is like "Oh ok, thats cool, i wish my SM had that" and thats it.. lol
If you use an army that they never seen before, you have to have that say conversion anyways, or a new unit, etc... there are 100's of units, no one knows them all, thats why we have books.
Amishprn86 wrote: I just say its an Open top Rhino that cost over 100pts and everyone is like "Oh ok, thats cool, i wish my SM had that" and thats it.. lol
I hand them the book and say have a quick read. It's has a lot of fire points with no exceptions for the guys inside. I can shoot out of it while it is locked in combat. Most people are familiar with it by now.
I don't think its so much a difference between the Immolator or the Repressor after the CA point change for the Repressor. Both have their uses, and while the Repressor will keep your girls shooting AND safer, the Immolator packs quite a punch as well. For me, it comes down to the girls inside it. Neither are "wow thats good" when they have BSS in them. It's the 1 point we pay to have Dominions over taking BSS that makes all the difference. Vanguard is just such a great ability and really gives SoB the only thing demanding they get respect in 8ed.
Which means it'll probably get nuke nerfed if and when Sisters get a Dex.
dracpanzer wrote: I don't think its so much a difference between the Immolator or the Repressor after the CA point change for the Repressor. Both have their uses, and while the Repressor will keep your girls shooting AND safer, the Immolator packs quite a punch as well. For me, it comes down to the girls inside it. Neither are "wow thats good" when they have BSS in them. It's the 1 point we pay to have Dominions over taking BSS that makes all the difference. Vanguard is just such a great ability and really gives SoB the only thing demanding they get respect in 8ed.
Which means it'll probably get nuke nerfed if and when Sisters get a Dex.
This ^ i'm not going to play normal BSS until we get a dex and it gives us a reason too.
IDK if it will get nuked, SoB are not really dominating the scenes, GW might not care to much
@Lanloarn: here is what I took to Goldensprue. No repressors, no Dominions and still competitive. I’m making some tweaks but this is the core of my LVO list.
Lanlaorn wrote: Have any Sisters armies been competitively successful without using Repressors?
I feel like they're basically the perfect example of the sort of thing people complain about when they complain about overpowered Forgeworld units and I don't want to be "that guy" who's converting an out of production Forgeworld-only unit with powerful, unique rules and an amazing statline.
Can Battle Sisters in Immolators move across the board quickly enough to reach an enemy gunline before they've torn the rest of my army apart (with the loss of efficiency of not having those units shoot out of fire ports) or would it be strictly Dominions for the vanguard move?
I use Immolators. [no FW in the local league where I am, at least for the time, but they've begun reconsidering that policy]. They work similarly well. You're more fragile, though, since you have to get out of it.
I have done very well. They do the same thing as Repressors, for all intents and purposes. I use a few with multimeltas and a few with flamers. Both variants I can say to have easily pulled their weight.
What units do you usually load them with? All Dominators? I'm worried Battle Sisters will be too slow against a powerful gunline without that Vanguard move head start, but I'd like to use a couple Cannonesses. Thanks for sharing, I'm in a similar spot where there is no ban on FW but it's definitely frowned upon to bring their powerful units.
All Dominions. Battle Sisters are not suited to being the offensive arm, Dominions are so much better for a few points more. Battle Sisters won't arrive until turn 2 and carry half the firepower.
As far as Cannonesses go, I field the minimum possible to unlock my detachments, and they hang out with Exorcists and Retributors in the back of the board.
I was wondering what the general consensus was on bringing a dedicated CC unit? Between the three realistic choices of repentia/DCA and Arcos - assuming they're all backed by a priest, (I know none are especially outstanding) what do people generally bring?
Are they even worth bringing at all?
I just feel a little worried about the only melee threats being characters
japehlio wrote: I was wondering what the general consensus was on bringing a dedicated CC unit? Between the three realistic choices of repentia/DCA and Arcos - assuming they're all backed by a priest, (I know none are especially outstanding) what do people generally bring?
Are they even worth bringing at all?
I just feel a little worried about the only melee threats being characters
That's kind of the idea though. If the only melee threats are characters, then it gives your shooty a bit of a breather and anytime you lose a melee threat, you get an AOF.
Ive not fielded any dedicated cc units yet in 8th. Everything has been shooty and what characters i have. Though this weekend ill be getting some games in and will be trying a couple 6 crazies squads of arcos with priest, so shall see how that pans out.
Ive found great success in using bss. By using several squads of bss and only a sprinkling of seraphim and repressor doms. This is mostly due to necessity, i have only a handful of special and heavy weapons so i cant go all out on doms and ive only got 3 transports, 2 of which are immos. But ive found the one thing i can rely upon is my inability to get the first turn, so vanguard move is absolutely wasted for me. As such, even if i had plenty of spec weps, id still favour bss.
Im only casual player mind you as such i have a casual mindset and play like minded people.
japehlio wrote: I was wondering what the general consensus was on bringing a dedicated CC unit? Between the three realistic choices of repentia/DCA and Arcos - assuming they're all backed by a priest, (I know none are especially outstanding) what do people generally bring?
Are they even worth bringing at all?
I just feel a little worried about the only melee threats being characters
I bring Seraphim to be a CQC threat. Close Quarters is very powerful, and you don't have to have melee weapons to get the most out of it.
In fact, it is my opinion that close combat weapons are usually points wasted. You get almost all the potential from CQC from being a warm body, but compared to a range weapon a CQC weapon is less efficient and less flexible.
Also, going into CQC with tanks works too. All you've got to do is get there and be able to survive 2 rounds of CQC.
I do find myself always putting my Seraphim into CC right away lol.
I kinda wish all tanks had a fallback and shoot rule, but has to snapfire. I think more people would play with them and even take flamers, so many players i know wont take so many tanks for fear of being locked down.
Amishprn86 wrote: I do find myself always putting my Seraphim into CC right away lol.
I kinda wish all tanks had a fallback and shoot rule, but has to snapfire. I think more people would play with them and even take flamers, so many players i know wont take so many tanks for fear of being locked down.
Huh. I see tanks everywhere in my opponent's armies. I'd hazard between 4 and 10 tanks or tank-like things. What are your opponents bringing?
CSM doesnt use any tanks
Eldar normally only 2 WS's the rest are Swooping hawks, Dark reapers, wraiths etc..
2 IG , 1 does have tanks, but the other is DKoK and he doesnt.
Daemons no tanks, just lots of bodies
We dont have much pure SM, but the few that are normally run Dev's, some jump guys (including Primaris) they have a few tanks, but never more than 3
A few Ork players, They have 2 Trucks that its (but they dont care if they get charged) they play with dreads/cans a lot and want them in melee
Tau player no tanks
Me and 1 other plays DE, but we both are not ATM b.c they just are not fun to play
Then there is me, I play Lots of tanks lol, either army i play its 6+, Harlequins, DE, SOB etc...
They do have tanks, but its normally 2-3 at the most, and those players dont expect them to last for more than 2 turns.
The 1 IG player tho does play with LOTS of them.
The only Faction that I see with lots of tanks are the Guard players, most other factions players bring few to none.
I like vehicles, in my main list I take 6 Repressors, 2 Hellhounds and a Tank Commander. The Hellhounds especially are a little scary as I like to rush them right into my opponents lines hoping they’ll explode and cause havoc.
How are you planning to get your opponents to kill the Dialogus? And, once they've killed one, what's stopping them from sweeping the rest in the same phase, thereby negating their bonus?
Paimon wrote: How are you planning to get your opponents to kill the Dialogus? And, once they've killed one, what's stopping them from sweeping the rest in the same phase, thereby negating their bonus?
Turn one, one Dialogus advances as far forward as she can (possibly even using an Act of Faith to move twice toward the enemy and charge into combat if at all possible). One Canoness and the Imagifer stick with the HB Retributors to buff the firebase. The other Dialoogus hide inside the MM Immolators and pop out as needed while the remaining Canoness hides behind the hulls of the MM Immolators and Storm-Bolter laden Repressors to give out the re-roll 1's aura.
Paimon wrote: How are you planning to get your opponents to kill the Dialogus? And, once they've killed one, what's stopping them from sweeping the rest in the same phase, thereby negating their bonus?
Turn one, one Dialogus advances as far forward as she can (possibly even using an Act of Faith to move twice toward the enemy and charge into combat if at all possible). One Canoness and the Imagifer stick with the HB Retributors to buff the firebase. The other Dialoogus hide inside the MM Immolators and pop out as needed while the remaining Canoness hides behind the hulls of the MM Immolators and Storm-Bolter laden Repressors to give out the re-roll 1's aura.
I’m sure it’s been discussed here before, but it might be worth the extra 25 points per to change a few dialogus to Imagifiers- at least with the Imagifiers you get some utility with the chance at another AoF until they’re killed. I don’t use character shenanigans with my Force, but a savvy player will know to target as many of your characters as possible on the same turn to avoid giving free AoFs.
davidgr33n wrote: Just curious why you’re not playing Sisters anymore...
Because GW hasn't given me anything new to buy, assemble, and paint in 20 years other than the new Celestine and the blanchian canoness model.
The changes to the rules, while welcome, just aren't enough on their own to keep the army exciting to play for years on end. If we get a new range of Sisters, I'll probably get back in to collecting them-- I mean, at the rate GW is going, I'll have a job, a coupe promotions, and quite a bit of savings anyway by the time we get plastic Sisters of Battle.
Already got her in the box due to impatience last year. Wish id waited a little longer now.
If GW ever lets us have customizable saints as an elite or HQ choice that caan be made into an equivalent of that model, id be all over buying several more of her. As it is i can only ever use my old metal one or new plastic one. Pointless to have multiple right now.
davidgr33n wrote: Just curious why you’re not playing Sisters anymore...
Because GW hasn't given me anything new to buy, assemble, and paint in 20 years other than the new Celestine and the blanchian canoness model.
The changes to the rules, while welcome, just aren't enough on their own to keep the army exciting to play for years on end. If we get a new range of Sisters, I'll probably get back in to collecting them-- I mean, at the rate GW is going, I'll have a job, a coupe promotions, and quite a bit of savings anyway by the time we get plastic Sisters of Battle.
Or even kids and grandkids lol
I totally agree. I’ve been collecting sisters since the late 90s and they can get boring to play pure.
Ok folks -- I am digging the girls out of storage and going up against DE soon. Ironic, since DE are my other main...I don't know how to actually counter them with sisters. Need 2K list, named characters allowed but cannot be warlord.
It's a little tempting for me, though I no longer really play Sisters. I like the new model, I just didn't want to get the triuumvirate...
I prefer my the original Celestine plus two Seraphim Superiors as Geminae. Nothing wrong with the new sculpt, I like that they kept the aesthetic intact, they just look way too busy when mixed in with Seraphim and Sisters IMO.
I'm comparing two possible Sisters+Scions TAC lists at 2000, a full Brigade vs. Battalion/Vanguard/Outrider/Spearhead. I'm wondering which one is TACkier (see what I did there?). The basic selection of units and the core tactics are the same.
The main question is the value of trading away 3 CP and 2x naked BSS to gain a Rhino for the 10 Stormbolter Doms and the Stormtroopers doctrine (extra shots on 6s) for the 20 Scions.
I'm leaning towards the Brigade. The screening BSS units in the backfield are useful, the CA strategems make me want the extra CP, I think I'm okay with SB Doms hoofing it into range, and the Scions doctrine doesn't seem like a game changer. I'm totally open to counterarguments.
japehlio wrote: I was wondering what the general consensus was on bringing a dedicated CC unit? Between the three realistic choices of repentia/DCA and Arcos - assuming they're all backed by a priest, (I know none are especially outstanding) what do people generally bring?
Are they even worth bringing at all?
I just feel a little worried about the only melee threats being characters
Got that game in using the arcos. They were going up against marines so they got tested pretty hard. Against MEQid deacribe their capabilities as...adequate. MEQ isnt their ideal target, but theyll get the job done well enough. I had them in squads of 6 back up by a priest and they were averaging 35+ attacks, about 29 hits with the rerolls, around 12-16 wounds and about 5 resulting failed saves.
Their 5++ is great and 2 wounds is just icing on the cake.
Only lost one arco in combat and another 3 to an exploding razorback that asdaulted them.
They do slow tthe game down. Rolling 18 d3 and adding it up then rolling all those dice and rerolling failed hits can take so me time. Ended up doing things in groups of 10 dice to speed things along.
These guys are definately the mob killers. Overall i am satisfied with how they performed and may consider using them more often in future.
PanzerLeader wrote: @mcphail: the 9 CP list is better. It unlocks doctrines and stratagems which give you the abilities to be more all comer.
I must be missing an advantage. What do I unlock with a dedicated Militarum Tempestus detachment beyond the extra shots on 6s? Are there sweet AM codex strategems that I couldn't access otherwise? I haven't done much with AM other than Scions.
Are you arming your Scions with melta / plasma?
If you take the Scion detachment as your Warlord they have several good Traits you could use.
I take a Tallarn detachment which I equip with mostly plasma and melta, and give the Warlord the Old Grudges trait (it gives all detachment units within 6” of the Warlord rerolls of wounds against a preferred enemy).
davidgr33n wrote: Are you arming your Scions with melta / plasma?
If you take the Scion detachment as your Warlord they have several good Traits you could use.
I take a Tallarn detachment which I equip with mostly plasma and melta, and give the Warlord the Old Grudges trait (it gives all detachment units within 6” of the Warlord rerolls of wounds against a preferred enemy).
4x squads with plasma/plasma/plasma pistol plus 2x primes with rods. I usually split them to either side of the opponent's backfield unless there's a clear target for saturation. My melta Doms usually handle the big armor leaving Scions to target medium and heavy infantry, bikes, etc.
I'm a little reluctant to go warlord because theyre so aggressive. WL is much more reliably the backfield canoness with the HB Rets.
Reading through the section on detachments, it looks like there isn't a limit on how many you can take. The limits seem to be set by tournament groups, rather then the rule book itself.
Mmmpi wrote: Reading through the section on detachments, it looks like there isn't a limit on how many you can take. The limits seem to be set by tournament groups, rather then the rule book itself.
BRBpg 214 1,001-2,000 Up to 3 per army "For organised events"
Mmmpi wrote: Reading through the section on detachments, it looks like there isn't a limit on how many you can take. The limits seem to be set by tournament groups, rather then the rule book itself.
BRBpg 214 1,001-2,000 Up to 3 per army "For organised events"
davidgr33n wrote: Are you arming your Scions with melta / plasma?
If you take the Scion detachment as your Warlord they have several good Traits you could use.
I take a Tallarn detachment which I equip with mostly plasma and melta, and give the Warlord the Old Grudges trait (it gives all detachment units within 6” of the Warlord rerolls of wounds against a preferred enemy).
You would also loose the rather fine Relic sword for the Canoness IIRC.
Not in a Sisters list, but maybe on their own. I kind of like them. Not the bikes, and I'm not sold on the Terminators, but I do like to regular guys and I really like the grav-tank.
I'm not sold their their efficacy on their own, though, which makes me hesitant to buy more of them, and I'm almost 100% certain that a detachment of them would weaken my Sisters, Guard, or Space Wolves army.
@mcphail: you get access to the Guard relic stratagem, combined squads, second order (they stack), 5+ overwatch, d3 morale test, and old school interceptor. Plus the sisters deny and martyrdom stratagems. It’s just a bunch of tactical options on top of storm trooper doctrine.
PanzerLeader wrote: @mcphail: you get access to the Guard relic stratagem, combined squads, second order (they stack), 5+ overwatch, d3 morale test, and old school interceptor. Plus the sisters deny and martyrdom stratagems. It’s just a bunch of tactical options on top of storm trooper doctrine.
Very cool... sounds like I need to get my nose into a Guard 'dex. I committed to Scions at the end of 7th and I've been pretty content with them in 8th, but I've never looked beyond their Doctrine. So whatever allows the second order allows you to order a single unit twice? That sounds like it might be the most devastating of the lot. Thanks!
Its the Inspired Tactics stratagem. Orders no longer require you to shoot immediately after issuing so you can give a unit reroll ones and something else.
EDIT: I misread it. It doesn’t override the one order per turn restriction. It’s just a bonus order for the officer. You could use it to have one commander give three orders if needed.
So I have about 100 points left, any suggestions on cuts/units to take? It's (IMO) got a pretty decent mix of anti tank, horde control and mobility.
I was thinking of squeezing in a second Immolator, or I could buy second heavy flamers for the repressors and a few upgrades.
Mmmpi wrote: Unfortunately, that upgrade only goes on the Stormtrooper officer (Tempestus officer), so it maxes at two orders.
Inspired Tactics works on any AM officer. The relic is what you’re thinking of which allows a third order on a 2+. That relic is storm troopers only but he is using storm troopers.
PanzerLeader wrote: Its the Inspired Tactics stratagem. Orders no longer require you to shoot immediately after issuing so you can give a unit reroll ones and something else.
EDIT: I misread it. It doesn’t override the one order per turn restriction. It’s just a bonus order for the officer. You could use it to have one commander give three orders if needed.
You want the Laurels of Command relic. That allows the officer to issue an extra order to the same unit on a 4+. For Scions that'll usually be "Reroll 1s to hit" and "Re-roll wounds against Vehicles/Monsters." Side note, Combined Squads stratagem only works very specifically on Infantry Squads (the Codex entry), so you can't consolidate Tempestus Scions.
I play mixed Sisters/Militarum Tempestus as my primary army, and here's what I consider the best parts:
- Plasma, Plasma, Plasma. Cheap, reliable plasma where you want it, when you want it, and it fills a huge gap in the Sisters armory. It gives you an efficient way to deal with 2W troops or other things that are inefficient to kill with bolters and meltas.
- Objective Secured. You can skip out on Battle Sisters and just take MT Scion Squads instead. Gives you more room for good stuff like Dominions, Seraphim, and Arco-Flagellants.
- Deep Strike. Seraphim technically have it, but their special weapons don't synergize with the ability, unlike Scions. Helps a lot if your opponent is canny and keeps your front line of Sisters contained.
What you don't get:
- Long Range Firepower. You can fit in Taurox Primes, Valkyries, and Vultures, but their long-range shooting tends to be inefficient, especially compared to their short-range options. The Vendetta is available, but only at a hefty price. If you want to fill this gap in the armory, try non-Tempestus Guard.
- Tons of CP. Filling a Battalion with Scions is trivial, but it's literally impossible to fill a Brigade without losing the Doctrine. Again, if you're looking for tons of CP, non-Tempestus Guard is where it's at.
Hope that helps. I have a lot of good things to say about mixed Guard/Sisters, so if you want to know more, just hit me up.
@KestrelM1: would you recommend pure detachments or a mixed brigade to mcphail? I’m recommending pure detachments in a combined army but curious what you’d recommend with your additional experience
I'd keep them pure, if possible. Assuming an AS Warlord, staying pure gets you:
MT Doctrine Superior Intelligence Stratagem (shoot at deep strikers at -1) Take Cover Stratagem (+1 to saves) Vengeance For Cadia Stratagem (re-roll everything vs. Chaos) AM Relics* - I recommend Kurov's Aquila and/or Laurels of Command
AS Stratagems
* (It's not clear to me whether you can use the Stratagem to buy Relics if your warlord isn't the correct faction. If someone knows, let me know, otherwise check with your TO.)
Now, to be honest a lot of those benefits are fairly niche, other than the MT Doctrine. But Vengeance for Cadia and Superior Intelligence are devastating in the right circumstances. And it really shouldn't be tough to keep things separate.
Two Primes with rods, a Command Squad w/ Plasma, and 3 Scion squads with Plasma runs a clean 400 points and gets you 3 CP and 10 Plasma Guns with orders, on demand.
I'd think about a mixed Brigade only if you plan to have some other "pure" detachment to actually burn through the CPs. The mixed Brigade nets you 12 CP, sure, but you'd be limited to BRB stratagems only.
KestrelM1 wrote: I'd keep them pure, if possible. Assuming an AS Warlord, staying pure gets you:
AM Relics* - I recommend Kurov's Aquila and/or Laurels of Command
AS Stratagems
* (It's not clear to me whether you can use the Stratagem to buy Relics if your warlord isn't the correct faction. If someone knows, let me know, otherwise check with your TO.)
.
Really good question - the stratagem says "Your army can have one extra relic from the Heirlooms....." I guess it depends if the word "Extra" matters as you can't give an initial one to a AM character if you don't have a AM warlord?
KestrelM1 wrote: I'd keep them pure, if possible. Assuming an AS Warlord, staying pure gets you:
MT Doctrine
Superior Intelligence Stratagem (shoot at deep strikers at -1)
Take Cover Stratagem (+1 to saves)
Vengeance For Cadia Stratagem (re-roll everything vs. Chaos)
AM Relics* - I recommend Kurov's Aquila and/or Laurels of Command
AS Stratagems
* (It's not clear to me whether you can use the Stratagem to buy Relics if your warlord isn't the correct faction. If someone knows, let me know, otherwise check with your TO.)
Now, to be honest a lot of those benefits are fairly niche, other than the MT Doctrine. But Vengeance for Cadia and Superior Intelligence are devastating in the right circumstances. And it really shouldn't be tough to keep things separate.
Two Primes with rods, a Command Squad w/ Plasma, and 3 Scion squads with Plasma runs a clean 400 points and gets you 3 CP and 10 Plasma Guns with orders, on demand.
I'd think about a mixed Brigade only if you plan to have some other "pure" detachment to actually burn through the CPs. The mixed Brigade nets you 12 CP, sure, but you'd be limited to BRB stratagems only.
Death Guard FAQ answers the question about relics. You may buy extra relics as long as you have access to the appropriate stratagem. Specific example given is having a CSM warlord and buying a DG relic. You may put Blade of Admonition on an AS model from an AS model and then buy AM relics from the stratagem.
That does mean the Sister's model has to be your Warlord of course.
If you're taking an AM detachment, you'd be mad to miss out on taking an AM Warlord for their warlord trait over the sisters dubious 'Re-roll Moral.'
PanzerLeader wrote: Death Guard FAQ answers the question about relics. You may buy extra relics as long as you have access to the appropriate stratagem. Specific example given is having a CSM warlord and buying a DG relic. You may put Blade of Admonition on an AS model from an AS model and then buy AM relics from the stratagem.
Awesome, thanks for that.
AdmiralHalsey wrote:If you're taking an AM detachment, you'd be mad to miss out on taking an AM Warlord for their warlord trait over the sisters dubious 'Re-roll Moral.'
Aye, that just depends on what you value more: the free Blade of Admonition plus one of the BRB warlord traits, or something like Grand Strategist. It's awkward with Scions, because your Primes really want to drop next to their troops to issue orders, and tend to get killed quickly after that. You'd have to throw in an extra Prime or Commissar to just sit around and be a Warlord without much else to do.
That problem is specific to Militarum Tempestus detachments, though. Standard Guard detachments won't have that problem, and yeah, you should probably use an AM warlord in that case. Grand Strategist and Old Grudges are fantastic.
But at that point, aren't you just playing Guard with Sisters allies, and not the other way around?
I love the Blade of Admonition, its amazing.. lol I'll never leave home without it. My Canoness in the past 3 games with the Blade of Admonition has killed well over 200pts each game. Players are starting to know what it does tho.. so might not be as useful soon lol.
See, I knew I had the right question for the right people! Excellent insights, PanzerLeader and KestrelM1, y'all rock! I'd overlooked that those Relics are free since there's no base wargear to buy, and that they're unlocked with a single-faction detachment. Sweet!
So based on this I'll keep a Canoness Warlord in the back with my HB Rets (probably taking WT Tenacious Survivor and staying out of harm's way), take my initial Relic as the BoA on a second, more aggressive Canoness, and use the Imperial Commander's Armory stratagem to spend 1 CP for the Aquila and be pretty confident that the CP comes back quickly and then gains me even more. No brainer.
In a 2k game like this, I could spend 3 CP on Armory to take both the Aquila and the Laurels, since I've got 2 MT characters, and be reasonably sure to get them back by turn 2 or 3... A bit riskier, but still a reasonable chance of having plenty to fuel rerolls, Martyrdom, and Celestine. Laurels seems like a punchier option with a bigger squad than I'm running, but could still be a game changer.
All that plus a few handy-if-circumstatial strategems makes me glad I asked... I was all about max CPs without considering the range of things to use them on. I will miss those backfield screening BSS units, though...
Amishprn86 wrote: I love the Blade of Admonition, its amazing.. lol I'll never leave home without it. My Canoness in the past 3 games with the Blade of Admonition has killed well over 200pts each game. Players are starting to know what it does tho.. so might not be as useful soon lol.
Huh. My Canoness gets it too, and she's never achieved anything meaningful with it. I try not to allow situations where she can use it, and in general when the situations for her to use it arise despite my efforts it's way too late.
It's got great stats-for-cost, but the platform is a crippling weakness.
I disagree, ive found her to be absolutely amazing. In one game against nids she took down a hive tyrant much to the jaw dropping surprise of the nid player. Another one she cleaned up 2 carnifexes, a handful of warriors and a wound off a zoanthrope before she went down to smite. All unsupported.
Amishprn86 wrote: I love the Blade of Admonition, its amazing.. lol I'll never leave home without it. My Canoness in the past 3 games with the Blade of Admonition has killed well over 200pts each game. Players are starting to know what it does tho.. so might not be as useful soon lol.
Huh. My Canoness gets it too, and she's never achieved anything meaningful with it. I try not to allow situations where she can use it, and in general when the situations for her to use it arise despite my efforts it's way too late.
It's got great stats-for-cost, but the platform is a crippling weakness.
I throw her up there as fast as i can, i try to use it lol. Can not get use out of it if you dont use it
How do y'all get your Canoness up the table to make good use of her BoA? The handful of times I've run Heavy Flamer Rets she rides in their Rhino. My new scheme is to run her behind footslogging Stormbolter Doms and maybe Advance T1 for a T2 charge. Also thinking about starting her close enough to a backline Imagifier to give her an extra move before the Imagifier then supports HB Rets for the rest of the game.
What else works to protect and deliver the relic blade?
She is in a Rhino with my Acro's and Priest, turn 1 it moves+advances, turn 2 gets out and charges. (unless its against nids or Orks or something that comes to me, then its noramlly turn 1 and i dont need to move the Rhino)
I dont protect her honestly, no one shoots Acros lol, they are more worried about the turn 24" moving Seraphim/Celestine, and the 6 Dom units Scouting. Whats a No AP melee unit going to do with a 49pt character?
I dont care about the Aura b.c if i'm out of my Repressors i'm as good as dead (there are some times a few survives a round in cover, but not anywhere i need them to be).
I don't have a vehicle for her. If I had a vehicle for her, I'd be making a 50 point waste of points into a 150+ point waste of points, so she's never getting near the enemy unless someone deepstrikes on her head or my army is already dead. And because I can't control what my opponent is deepstriking [and therefore I have no guarantee that my Canoness can kill it], I'd rather not leave the option open for them to do so at all. If my army is already dead, then it doesn't matter.
If I were to buy her a transport, I'd be investing at least another 100 points in getting her to buff the Dominions on turn two, which could be better spent on a squad of Rets or an Exorcist which can be receiving her buff, in effect on turn 1, and denying the dropzone.
I also don't think a rhino full of arco-flagellants is very good either. It's too many points, not as efficient or flexible as competing options, and doesn't come into play until turn 2. At the very least, if I had a killy melee unit to hit on turn 2 with, I'd make it a unit of tank-breakers.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: I don't have a vehicle for her. If I had a vehicle for her, I'd be making a 50 point waste of points into a 150+ point waste of points, so she's never getting near the enemy unless someone deepstrikes on her head or my army is already dead. And because I can't control what my opponent is deepstriking [and therefore I have no guarantee that my Canoness can kill it], I'd rather not leave the option open for them to do so at all. If my army is already dead, then it doesn't matter.
If I were to buy her a transport, I'd be investing at least another 100 points in getting her to buff the Dominions on turn two, which could be better spent on a squad of Rets or an Exorcist which can be receiving her buff, in effect on turn 1, and denying the dropzone.
Understandable, for me i'm am extremely aggressive Sob player, i dont like Ret HB's, i dont like Exorcist, etc.. So when i have 9 units in your deployment turn 1-2, she is better up there with them.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: I don't have a vehicle for her. If I had a vehicle for her, I'd be making a 50 point waste of points into a 150+ point waste of points, so she's never getting near the enemy unless someone deepstrikes on her head or my army is already dead. And because I can't control what my opponent is deepstriking [and therefore I have no guarantee that my Canoness can kill it], I'd rather not leave the option open for them to do so at all. If my army is already dead, then it doesn't matter.
If I were to buy her a transport, I'd be investing at least another 100 points in getting her to buff the Dominions on turn two, which could be better spent on a squad of Rets or an Exorcist which can be receiving her buff, in effect on turn 1, and denying the dropzone.
Understandable, for me i'm am extremely aggressive Sob player, i dont like Ret HB's, i dont like Exorcist, etc.. So when i have 9 units in your deployment turn 1-2, she is better up there with them.
So am I. I think we all are, because every turn you're getting shelled by Imperial Guard artillery is a turn you're getting further away from winning.
I put 7 units [not counting an additional 5 Immolators] across the board on turn 1.
I don't think boxes of flagellants are any good. A Canoness, 8 flagellants, and a priest come up to about 300 points, which is just under twice the cost of an anti-infantry equipped unit of Dominions in an Immolator. Comparatively, the Dominions will be able to engage on turn 1 and be able to engage the target of their choice, while the close-quarters blob will either be engaging what's left or what the enemy is offering to them.
The arco-flagellants get more attacks at higher strength, but the Dominions get to chose the target for their attacks, and the guns on the Immolator also make up some of the difference.
The Arco box has validity since it can kill the Dominions out of combat when the enemy counter-charges them, but I'd rather rely on proactive charge denial from Seraphim and St.C or my tanks than rescuing my units once they've been attacked.
I don't think it's possible to completely drop the backfield units in an all-comers list. It's just too big of a vulnerability, and you still have to hold the objectives that are there.
AM Supreme Command
Company Commander [WARLORD]
2x Primaris Psykers
Hope to see you guys and girls there. Be sure to drop by the pink sisters and say hello.
As of two weeks ago I can't go. So I'll be at home drinking and watching the LVO twitch cheering you on and gently weeping into my Xiphon's battlefoam that just arrived in the mail monday... Keep the faith and make us proud.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: I don't have a vehicle for her. If I had a vehicle for her, I'd be making a 50 point waste of points into a 150+ point waste of points, so she's never getting near the enemy unless someone deepstrikes on her head or my army is already dead. And because I can't control what my opponent is deepstriking [and therefore I have no guarantee that my Canoness can kill it], I'd rather not leave the option open for them to do so at all. If my army is already dead, then it doesn't matter.
If I were to buy her a transport, I'd be investing at least another 100 points in getting her to buff the Dominions on turn two, which could be better spent on a squad of Rets or an Exorcist which can be receiving her buff, in effect on turn 1, and denying the dropzone.
Understandable, for me i'm am extremely aggressive Sob player, i dont like Ret HB's, i dont like Exorcist, etc.. So when i have 9 units in your deployment turn 1-2, she is better up there with them.
So am I. I think we all are, because every turn you're getting shelled by Imperial Guard artillery is a turn you're getting further away from winning.
I put 7 units [not counting an additional 5 Immolators] across the board on turn 1.
I don't think boxes of flagellants are any good. A Canoness, 8 flagellants, and a priest come up to about 300 points, which is just under twice the cost of an anti-infantry equipped unit of Dominions in an Immolator. Comparatively, the Dominions will be able to engage on turn 1 and be able to engage the target of their choice, while the close-quarters blob will either be engaging what's left or what the enemy is offering to them.
The arco-flagellants get more attacks at higher strength, but the Dominions get to chose the target for their attacks, and the guns on the Immolator also make up some of the difference.
The Arco box has validity since it can kill the Dominions out of combat when the enemy counter-charges them, but I'd rather rely on proactive charge denial from Seraphim and St.C or my tanks than rescuing my units once they've been attacked.
I don't think it's possible to completely drop the backfield units in an all-comers list. It's just too big of a vulnerability, and you still have to hold the objectives that are there.
My Arcos are doing amazing! IDK if i will play without them at this point (depends on the codex now i mean).
Finished 2-1. Lost game 3 by 3 points to Tau commander spam. I sold out for the turn one tabling and missed it by 5 fire warriors. Left me in an awkward position when his suits dropped.
Put up a solid win today against Genestealer Cult with a version of the Sisters/Scions list I posted last week. 11-1 in Spoils of War; the cards went very much my way, but ultimately I took his Purestrains off the table and he didn't have what it took to dislodge me from the objectives. Very fun, thematic game on a really nice board against a great opponent.
My list, lightly tweaked from the previous version:
My opponent had a really beautifully painted GSC army with 3x cultists with lascannons, a Leman Russ, 3x lascannon Sentinels, Magus, Primus, Patriarch, and 4x20 Purestrains. It was a mountain of bugs. I managed to work the deployment to my advantage, but he took first turn. The photo is after his ambush at the top of Turn 1. The wall of Genestealers ran itself at a wall of guns. The guns ultimately did the job, but only after multiple fronts collapsed. I pushed one flank of the ambush back with Vanguard Immolators and adequately hedged my backfield with Battle Sisters, but I should have pushed the center forward to do the same. He met both transports midfield and destroyed them T1. I took charges from 40 bugs on one flank and 20 on the other; the last 20 I gunned down in the open. A Heroic Intervention that resulted in a Morale phase wipeout by Celestine & Friends and a BoA Canoness in his T1 charge was a turning point. The Scions and the Seraphim met up on either side of the Patriarch and gunned him down. I was way up on points and he was down to his Sentinels and a fleeing Magus, so we called it after 4 turns.
Other takeaways: His Russ was a surprise threat and his Sentinels were no slouch. Volley guns are surprisingly good. A Penitent Engine wading through 2x10 cultists in 2 turns is fun to watch. Jury still out on the Scions elements... the Laurels were pretty solid, but the Aquila didn't earn me many CPs. Doctrine + Extra Orders + Plasma is a pretty killer combo, but send 4 units to deal with a Russ, not two.
Good stuff, I love playing against GSC. Very thematic opponent for Sisters and they have some great mechanics that hopefully stand up better after they get a dex. Makes me wish I saw more Chaos Cultists armies, or that they had their own lists.
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MacPhail wrote: How do y'all get your Canoness up the table to make good use of her BoA? The handful of times I've run Heavy Flamer Rets she rides in their Rhino. My new scheme is to run her behind footslogging Stormbolter Doms and maybe Advance T1 for a T2 charge. Also thinking about starting her close enough to a backline Imagifier to give her an extra move before the Imagifier then supports HB Rets for the rest of the game.
What else works to protect and deliver the relic blade?
I put her with an inferno pistol and four other eviscerator inferno pistol canonesses in their own Repressor and run them up behind my Dominions. Fun to see players faces when they get destroyed in hth with them.
MacPhail wrote: How do y'all get your Canoness up the table to make good use of her BoA? The handful of times I've run Heavy Flamer Rets she rides in their Rhino. My new scheme is to run her behind footslogging Stormbolter Doms and maybe Advance T1 for a T2 charge. Also thinking about starting her close enough to a backline Imagifier to give her an extra move before the Imagifier then supports HB Rets for the rest of the game.
What else works to protect and deliver the relic blade?
In case it wasn't obvious, I don't.
She just lives at the back and buffs Retributors and Exorcists. Sometimes, if I'm penned in, or my rear line's been shot to bits, she'll get to use it against deep strikers or to repel the enemy from the ramparts.
She's at the very least carrying some weight in this capacity, and it seems to be a fairly practical use for the sword. It at least deters deepstrikers, because she can mess them up and keep the rest of the force on target.
That's the good thing I think about the blade, more than any other of it's qualities: it's cheap. Because it's super cheap, it's not particularly detrimental to your force if its doesn't get used meaningfully in 4 of 5 games. In this vein, I'll sound like a broken record, but I think investing in transport/bodyguard/etc. for her is really detracting from the blade's best quality, by making it effectively really expensive and no longer a great upgrade.
If I did want to get her up the board, I'd probably have her walk too. Buying a transport for 1 model is a waste of points, and buying units to add to the transport so it's not just her staff car is throwing good money [points] after bad. She's not going to be too much slower walking, to be honest, and she's not in danger at any time, so there's no need for the protection of the transport.
I just realized days later that I replied to the same thing twice, probably because I use two computers. I feel stupid now.
This has been debated since the start of 8th but I want to revisit the question.
My experience is that the majority of my opponents run roughly 66% infantry and 33% vehicles. So I’ve reduced my melta / plasma (anti-tank overall) to about 25% of my points total (sometimes as low as 20%) and the rest on Stormbolter / Heavy Bolter equivalents. I find the weight of fire from my STR5 weapons can still do damage against tanks and leave my STR4 stuff for pure infantry work.
I know finding the right balance is a tricky proposition, what proportion of AT vs AI do you all use roughly?
davidgr33n wrote: This has been debated since the start of 8th but I want to revisit the question.
My experience is that the majority of my opponents run roughly 66% infantry and 33% vehicles. So I’ve reduced my melta / plasma (anti-tank overall) to about 25% of my points total (sometimes as low as 20%) and the rest on Stormbolter / Heavy Bolter equivalents. I find the weight of fire from my STR5 weapons can still do damage against tanks and leave my STR4 stuff for pure infantry work.
I know finding the right balance is a tricky proposition, what proportion of AT vs AI do you all use roughly?
I'm definitely ready to shift toward more AI over AT. I'm balking at the cost of another squad of HB Rets and a dozen or more extra Stormbolters. I also want to see what happens when GeeDubs has no more codices to release but ours, see if there's any scent of plastics on the wind when we get whatever passes for a codex, etc. I know that's fantasy thinking, but I'm pretty happy with the balance in my army right at this moment. Last game it was roughly 50/50, complicated by some plasma options that sit the fence. Call it rough thirds: 1/3 melta on Doms and Seraphim for tanks and monsters, 1/3 SB/HB for infantry and volume fire, and 1/3 plasma for heavy infantry, bikes, and shoring up the other applications.
That's the good thing I think about the blade, more than any other of it's qualities: it's cheap. Because it's super cheap, it's not particularly detrimental to your force if its doesn't get used meaningfully in 4 of 5 games. In this vein, I'll sound like a broken record, but I think investing in transport/bodyguard/etc. for her is really detracting from the blade's best quality, by making it effectively really expensive and no longer a great upgrade.
I need to take this to heart, it's a great point. A 4 point relic doesn't need to do anything. I'll still work on pushing her forward because I like when my speedbump units bite back, but it's a good reminder to not build elaborate strategies around it.
davidgr33n wrote: This has been debated since the start of 8th but I want to revisit the question.
My experience is that the majority of my opponents run roughly 66% infantry and 33% vehicles. So I’ve reduced my melta / plasma (anti-tank overall) to about 25% of my points total (sometimes as low as 20%) and the rest on Stormbolter / Heavy Bolter equivalents. I find the weight of fire from my STR5 weapons can still do damage against tanks and leave my STR4 stuff for pure infantry work.
I know finding the right balance is a tricky proposition, what proportion of AT vs AI do you all use roughly?
About 66% of my army by unit count [closer to like 75+% by points], is kitted to destroy tanks and monsters. My typical anti-infantry assets are 2x SB Dominions, 1x HB Rets, and 2-3x Immolation Flamer Immolators. However, all my tanks are equipped with pintle-storm bolters, so that's about another SB Dominions squad between them, and the Seraphim still have 14 bolt pistols to use on infantry. Everything else is geared to destroy tanks.
Here's the way I see it: it's a lot harder to kill tanks with Storm Bolters than it is to kill infantry with Meltaguns. When in doubt, a Meltagun will almost for certain make what you needed to make dead very dead, and you don't have to rip up the lesser infantry all that urgently if you've crippled the main threats. In addition, I see a lot of tanks; the most common foes are Imperial Guard, Tyranids, and Space Marines, all of whom place a lot of their power in their armored and heavy assets.
Ouch. This happens to me often enough to have a name: melta choke. I've started overloading flanks with melta Doms to try to control for it... 2 transports full of melta on a single side of the table rather than sending them up both sidelines. I still failed to get a single Repulsor over two turns a few games back.
Yeah I've failed to do more than 6 damage to a wraith knight with 24 exorcist shots, 30 melta shots and 4 plasma shots over 2 turns. Its never a pleasant experience when the dice gods are against you.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Yeah I've failed to do more than 6 damage to a wraith knight with 24 exorcist shots, 30 melta shots and 4 plasma shots over 2 turns. Its never a pleasant experience when the dice gods are against you.
I've had games where the dice weren't on my side, but never that bad.
Usually when things go poorly it's because I left some critical target with a couple of wounds remaining because I rolled a little worse than I had planned for. And I can recover from that.
davidgr33n wrote: This has been debated since the start of 8th but I want to revisit the question.
My experience is that the majority of my opponents run roughly 66% infantry and 33% vehicles. So I’ve reduced my melta / plasma (anti-tank overall) to about 25% of my points total (sometimes as low as 20%) and the rest on Stormbolter / Heavy Bolter equivalents. I find the weight of fire from my STR5 weapons can still do damage against tanks and leave my STR4 stuff for pure infantry work.
I know finding the right balance is a tricky proposition, what proportion of AT vs AI do you all use roughly?
AP is really where it's at in a lot of ways. I am not really sure you shouldnt include that in the discussion too. Which gets us nowhere I know. But if I'm looking at my list and being honest about how i built it, i would say that I have favored Excellent AP weapons, and the STr has come secondary in consideration.
For Example: i have a StormSurge but it really only has the four one time Missiles that are scary, which typically go into one target in one round. For killing Pask for example before he goes crazy with orders. He has a lot of STR 5 and 4 though and the thing that makes him scary isnt the volume AS much as it is the AP I can give that. terminators only care aboutthe first -1...but they do care! Everyone does. So the same is true with Pathfinders. i roll with 6 Rail Rifles in my force. STR 6 is good on its own. -4 AP? Oh yeah. You cannot beat it and that is far more the reason I take it. The Supremacy Railguns on my Tidewall Gunrigs are really great and they don't often give saves.
I hear people tell me that 8 Missile Launchers on a comand suit is super good hitting on 2's, and -2 AP with the add on. I agree. It is. But the missiles str isnt what makes them scare you right?
So in this edition with things being a bit easier to kill, I think economizing how many units it really takes to do it is pretty key and I think AP is the number one thing that shortens that number. Seems like Sisters of Battle NEED to shorten that clock more than most to stay on the field.
So many feelings. That facts that we're one of three deliberately absurd clocks feels like a kick in the shins. The way they positioned those hands, though...
Automatically Appended Next Post: I view it as very positive. 7 minutes to midnight is a fantastic way to show that some sort of major change might be moments away. To be fair, it could just be trolling.. but really, really good trolling.
I'm guessing August... July would be another AoS Starter set release to go along with their rumored summer campaign. But then again... they've gotten me before.
Mmmpi wrote: Well, if we take the 7 minutes at face value, we could also assume July. But I have a picture that shows it at 11:54, so who knows.
Spoiler:
I'm going to have to chock that one up to "that is how clocks work" and they just didn't think to move it back when they were shooting the second shot. But who knows! Maybe they were being extra cheeky!
The Stormbolter and Inferno Pistol costs 11 points, combimelta is 19 points. I find if I’m close enough to shoot my melta I’m usually close enough to have shot the inferno pistol as well.
I’ll be writing up a battle report from my games from Lvo soon. I had 5 units of seraphim and they were mvp all weekend went 5-1 with only loss to nick who won it all. Ended up getting 10th and highest person with 1 loss.
Using pistols in melee is a factor too. Against fast moving melee oriented opponents, my Infernos kill more people in CC. I've never done them on Superiors, but that's true of my Inferno Seraphim and similarly with my PP Superiors in my Dom squads. They're always getting charged after they deliver the alpha, and the pistols at worst bring down another Berserker or two and at best spring the whole squad from melee to shoot something else.
I already pay for the Dominion Superior, may as well put both a Stormbolter and melta pistol on her since she can carry both, plus since I put all my Doms in Repressors I already get them within flamer range of my opponent (8”), so for my setup it seems like a workable idea.
The acolyte with the torch was never finished.
Keep the faith and make us proud.
