I dunno, they probably still have a place. They're hard to shift and look scary. At most you'll probably see one or two used as fire support for people who don't own or don't want to bring a knight.
- Acts of Faith do not seem to occur during a phase, as defined by the phases listed in the Core Rules. As such, in Matched Play, is there any restriction on using the same stratagem (such as the Command Reroll) multiple times whilst testing for Act of Faiths and while resolving their effects?
- Should Seraphim's 'Angelic Visage' ability read "you *CAN* reroll failed Shield of Faith invulnerable saves for this unit"? Presently if they are affected by Celestine's Beacon of Faith ability they are forced to reroll rolls of 5 when making a Shield of Faith Invulnerable save, as modifiers are applied after rerolls. Adding the word 'can' would allow the player to choose not to reroll the 5s and then make the save.
- The last wargear option on the Canoness is unclear as to whether she can trade both weapons for Pistols/Ranged Weapons or just one. Whilst of course two combi-weapons would be silly, a Canoness with two plasma pistols was previously possible and a very popular (and awesome!) conversion.
- If Celestine has died a second time (after being revived the first time using her Miraculous Intervention ability) and there are still Geminae Superia alive, can she be further revived by using a 'Spirit of the Martyr' Act of Faith or the Hospitaller's 'Healer' ability? (On a side note, if an additional ability was added to her datasheet to allow for wounds to always be allocated to the Geminae first, even if Celestine is wounded and they are not, this would mitigate this possibility for a cheeky further revival).
FORGEWORLD
Some small quick questions for the forgeworld team for 'Imperial Armour Index: Forces of the Adeptus Astartes'.
- If the Sororitas Repressor uses its smoke launchers ability, can the embarked unit still shoot using the Firing Ports ability?
- Is the wargear option for an additional Heavy Flamer or Storm Bolter intended to replace any of Repressor's standard weapons?
- If the Repressor is within 1" of an enemy unit, can the embarked unit still fire during the shooting phase using the Firing Ports ability? If so, what restrictions (if any) are in place for this shooting attack?
- As the Repressor can only carry <ORDER> infantry, it may not carry the Hospitaller and Dialogus. Was this intended? Why not restrict it to <ADEPTA SORORITAS> infantry instead?
NOW ANSWERED
- Units that DO NOT possess the 'Acts of Faith' ability but still have the <ORDER> or <ADEPTA SORORITAS> keywords - can they perform an Act of Faith as a result of the Imagifier's 'Simulacrum Imperialis' ability or Celestine's 'Saintly Blessings' ability? The wording of these abilities does not make it clear if the target unit also requires the Acts of Faith ability to be able to perform the Act of Faith.
*****Above abilities clarified in Errata to only work on <KEYWORD> units that have the Acts of Faith Ability.
- The Retributor Superior has a leadership characteristic of 7, whereas every other unit's Superiors have a leadership of at least 8. Is this a typo?
*****Corrected to Ld 8 in Eratta
- Celestine seems to be missing the unique model restriction.
*****Errata: You may only take one of this unit in your army
- The Seraphim Hand Flamer has D6 hits instead of D3 as seen on a weapon with the same name in Index Imperium 1. Please do not change this, but to avoid confusion could these weapons be renamed to a 'Sororitas Hand Flamer'?
*****Nerfed to Pistol D3 in Errata. RIP
- The Adeptus Ministorum Storm Bolter costs are listed at 4pts - this is inconsistent with every other imperial army receiving them for only 2pts (including Sisters of Silence and the Sororitas Repressor). Is this a mistake?
*****Corrected to 2pts per model in Errata
- Similary, it is not currently possible for a Superior in any unit to take a Boltgun and a Power Weapon, which a lot of the available models actually have on them.
******Superiors may now take a weapon from the melee list, fixing this issue
- If the Penitent Engine's 'Desperate for Redemption' ability successfully activates, can your opponent activate the 'Counter Offensive' stratagem to attack with one of their own units before the second lot of attacks resolves?
*****Clarified in Rulebook FAQ - units with abilities to fight twice, treat each round of fighting as a separate activation - so opponent may use Counter Offensive stratagem.
- In the Adeptus Ministorum ranged weapons summary, the Twin Multi-Melta is missing its ability as seen on the Immolator datasheet.
*****Ability added in Errata
Added the relevant answers from the NEW FAQ, and reorganised the remaining unanswered questions to the top. Of note:
- If the Penitent Engine's 'Desperate for Redemption' ability successfully activates, can your opponent activate the 'Counter Offensive' stratagem to attack with one of their own units before the second lot of attacks resolves?
*****Clarified in Rulebook FAQ (penultimate question)- units with abilities to fight twice, treat each round of fighting as a separate activation - so opponent may use Counter Offensive stratagem.
- With Superiors now being able to take a melee weapon, you can now always add a free chainsword essentially giving them all +1A. That's pretty awesome! You could also do the following loadouts:
- Bolter and Power Weapon (as per models)
- Bolt Pistol, Chainsword (bolter swap), Chainsword (take melee weapon). So if you drop her bolter, for free you can boost her to 4 attacks. 5 for Celestian Superior!
- Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Power Weapon
Melissia wrote: Yeah, I'm seeing more and more reason to just have seraphim have two bolt pistols and spend your points on something else.
Yeah. I don't want to repaint mine :( I didn't really want the HF before, but now they're just bad and for some reason still cost points. Granted within 6 inches a pair of them is roughly equivalent to a Stormbolter, that you pay 6x for?
Edit: oops, our Stormbolters got fixed to 2 pts each. This makes the HF basically worth like 1 pt for a pair in comparison.
Within 6 inches and assuming no Canoness support, yes, they'll be about on par with a storm bolter. With the rerolled ones, the storm bolter just plain outclassed it. And with all that range, there's no reason to even really consider the hand flamers. They're basically on par with normal flamers now... Which aren't very good either.
It's a shame. Seraphim were growing on me, but mine have a very different color scheme from the rest of my sisters and I just can't see myself trying to recreate it to replace the Hand Flamers :( They might see use in friendly matches with people that let me break WYSWYG.
One other big change from the FAQ that I noticed is the Dominion's Vanguard move - you now can't end it within 9" of an enemy model.
This is quite the nerf, especially during those deployment types where you only start 18" away. And if we assume we can advance during this move the nerf becomes even greater.
And not to mention that two units of Scouts (who deploy 9" from you and your deployment zone) could totally shut down this ability.
jim300 wrote: Our storm bolter is just 2 points now. I'm pretty sure this is one of the most competitive wargear options for us.
I'm looking to acquire a few more as we speak. Not that dropping from 4 points to 2 makes a huge difference, but the fact that we can deploy so many so cheaply.
Well, at 4 points they were already a steal. The drop in points just turns them from an attractive option to one that essentially makes SB domions our standard troop.
Flamers are dead (although heavy flamers still barely have a role).
Yeah, I did have a vision of a SB dom-based force with lots of drops that could shift around the entire portion of the deployment the opponent saw while he still had units to deploy after deployment (and basically deploy things as bait) because ultimately vanguard moves can also be used to pull back vulnerable troops too.
Fafnir wrote: Well, at 4 points they were already a steal. The drop in points just turns them from an attractive option to one that essentially makes SB domions our standard troop.
Flamers are dead (although heavy flamers still barely have a role).
Wait, what's up with flamers? I know hand farmers got the nerf bat... isn't the heavy flamer / flamer/ combi flamer still a nice option for the points?
Sadly, flamers are just all kinds of disappointing.
Between 30-18" (accounting for movement), a storm bolter will put out about 1.3 hits, about 1.5 with a Canoness giving you rerolls. From 18" and closer, you're getting about 2.7 hits, 3.1 with the Canoness.
A flamer, on the other hand, is only going to get about 3.5 hits from an average of 16.5" away. While costing more than four times as much.
The only edge flamers really get is for overwatch. And that's nice, but not worth 7 extra ppm. Simply put, flamers just do too little damage in a short period of time to justify taking over the more versatile and affordable storm bolter.
Fafnir wrote: Sadly, flamers are just all kinds of disappointing.
Between 30-18" (accounting for movement), a storm bolter will put out about 1.3 hits, about 1.5 with a Canoness giving you rerolls. From 18" and closer, you're getting about 2.7 hits, 3.1 with the Canoness.
A flamer, on the other hand, is only going to get about 3.5 hits from an average of 16.5" away. While costing more than four times as much.
The only edge flamers really get is for overwatch. And that's nice, but not worth 7 extra ppm. Simply put, flamers just do too little damage in a short period of time to justify taking over the more versatile and affordable storm bolter.
Okay, that's some compelling mathhammer. Storm bolters all around then.
What about heavy flamers? Do we like the mech'd up Rets with 4 heavy flamers now that the Exorcist has had some of the shine knocked off it by the FAQ? They've been great for me against Orks and even for peeling off an extra Berserker or two in overwatch, and I'm going to run a bunch of them against Nids tomorrow. Is S5 -1AP good enough for a TAC list, or are they overpriced?
Fafnir wrote: The only edge flamers really get is for overwatch. And that's nice, but not worth 7 extra ppm. Simply put, flamers just do too little damage in a short period of time to justify taking over the more versatile and affordable storm bolter.
Actually, now that I think about it: 2x Sisters with no special > Sister with flamer even though they're the same cost...
Still thinking I might bring one twin inferno pistol seraphim in a squad of five girls. Still cheap enough and just a bit of melta fun along for the ride.
Problem with storm bolter Doms is that I dont have enough of the models, flamers, melta, and bolters I have a ton of...
dracpanzer wrote: Still thinking I might bring one twin inferno pistol seraphim in a squad of five girls. Still cheap enough and just a bit of melta fun along for the ride.
Problem with storm bolter Doms is that I dont have enough of the models, flamers, melta, and bolters I have a ton of...
Actually, this might not be as terrible as I originally thought. In previous editions getting those pistols in range was a pain, but with the movement AoF, they're a lot more likely to actually make it, but 12 points per pistol is harsh.
dracpanzer wrote: Still thinking I might bring one twin inferno pistol seraphim in a squad of five girls. Still cheap enough and just a bit of melta fun along for the ride.
Problem with storm bolter Doms is that I dont have enough of the models, flamers, melta, and bolters I have a ton of...
I'm assuming you'd get to fire both Inferno pistols into somebody's face during the Shooting phase in a melee. Definitely helps the return on investment.
It might be worthwhile to take alongside Celestine, on order to help punch out big griblies. Though I'd be weary of that investment when you could just roast it in one go with a Dominion melta squad while Celestine goes off to do whatever of the other half million things she's capable of.
Something interesting I noticed. It says that characters only have immunity from being targeted if not the closest in the shooting phase....Seems to me this could let our shooting act of faith nail some characters that forget to block LOS to them from say a Heavy Bolter Retributor Squad?
Khadorstompy wrote: Something interesting I noticed. It says that characters only have immunity from being targeted if not the closest in the shooting phase....Seems to me this could let our shooting act of faith nail some characters that forget to block LOS to them from say a Heavy Bolter Retributor Squad?
I'd imagine the "...as if it were in the Shooting phase." part of the AoF would stop that.
So what? Hand flamers, doms vanguard move, imagifiers have all been nerfed. Meltaguns arent as good as they used to be. The unique thing about Exorcists (heavy d6 shots) is now standard for a lot of heavy weapons. Flamers are statistically worse than a storm bolter in any situation other than overwatch, for more than 4x the cost. But hey! Lucky us! We pay the same as everyone else for stormbolters now! Thats cool!
Arcos, DCAs, Crusaders used to be in one squad, now if i want to field them they all have to be seperate. So 3 squads of 2 to 3 models can all be targeted seperately. With a priest and a rhino thats 5 kill points.
Also my Inquisition army is down the toilet. Inquisitiors wargear options have been cut in half. (power armour, rad grenades, gas grenades, hellrifle, daemon sword, digital weapons, hvy weapon servitors, all gone) Acolytes were decent, S3 T3 3W 5+ models for 8pts, have a good range of special weapons and catch bullets for an Inquisitor. Now they're 1W with no reduction in points. Theres absolutely zero point in taking them over AM Vets now. If i want to make a decent Inquisition army, I may as well just run straight up imperial guard with a Inquisitor or two. Jokeros and Daemonhosts can't join Inquisitors in vehicles for some bloody reason. Theres no way to make a cool, fluffy Inquisition warband anymore!
Top that off with the fact that Sisters and Inquisition are pretty much all I've got!
Sorry guys, but the Jakman is salty. He's very salty.
Was looking at the pro/con of stormbolter doms vs melta doms. After buying the five girls you pay 10 points for the SB's vs 87 points for the melta/combi-melta. The difference almost pays the full cost of the Repressor to ride them around in....
Six squads of SB Doms in Repressors is 900 points, 462 points cheaper than the melta Doms. Almost enough points to take six squads of five Seraphim with one girl in each toting Inferno pistols for added bodies and some AT to jump behind the Repressors. Or just three more squads of SB Doms.
I seriously need to figure out a cheap and easy way to convert all my bolter girls into decent looking stormbolters Doms. Might just be the only way to save my wallet from this hell....
Fafnir wrote: It might be worthwhile to take alongside Celestine, on order to help punch out big griblies. Though I'd be weary of that investment when you could just roast it in one go with a Dominion melta squad while Celestine goes off to do whatever of the other half million things she's capable of.
The Seraphim are quite a lot cheaper than the dominions, aren't they? Basic Seraphim are only one point more than dominions, but inferno pistols cost quite a bit less than melta guns. And by putting the two pistols each on two sisters you get more ablative wounds, as well as 6 bolt pistol shots you can use. That's ignoring the price of the dominions' transport (because the transport is actually pretty good).
Basically as you say, they are decent with Celestine giving them a bonus move. I can see a case for just adding Celestine and a unit of Seraphim to a lot of imperial armies. They'd be extremely useful in missions like the relic - as would a unit of dominions (or anything else) that you could park on it before the game started.
Twoshoes23 wrote: Im waiting to run my 4x heavy flamer retributors, supieror w/ combi weapon of choice, inferno pistol cannoness 3 arco flaggelents, priest repressor of pain.
Arcos and Priests can't ride in a Repressor currently because they lack the <Order> keyword.
Fafnir wrote: It might be worthwhile to take alongside Celestine, on order to help punch out big griblies. Though I'd be weary of that investment when you could just roast it in one go with a Dominion melta squad while Celestine goes off to do whatever of the other half million things she's capable of.
The Seraphim are quite a lot cheaper than the dominions, aren't they? Basic Seraphim are only one point more than dominions, but inferno pistols cost quite a bit less than melta guns. And by putting the two pistols each on two sisters you get more ablative wounds, as well as 6 bolt pistol shots you can use. That's ignoring the price of the dominions' transport (because the transport is actually pretty good).
Basically as you say, they are decent with Celestine giving them a bonus move. I can see a case for just adding Celestine and a unit of Seraphim to a lot of imperial armies. They'd be extremely useful in missions like the relic - as would a unit of dominions (or anything else) that you could park on it before the game started.
A unit of 5 seraphim is basically mandatory, 10 is pretty darn good to. It doesn't matter if the seraphim do a single wound if they make it to the backline. A 55 point unit of seraphim can shut down Lascannon Devs, Centurions, Double Dakka Castellans, Cataphron, Lascannon Predators, Biovores, HWT, shooty foot infantry, etc, etc, etc, for the whole game if left uncontested. And if they do contest, then you own their movement phase which is probably the biggest advantage you can give yourself.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ncshooter426 wrote: It makes me angry that Celestine can't deepstrike with her Seraphim. I want them to be together so bad
Why can't she? Just deepstrike them both close together and pretend they're the same unit.
Plus, with the new Rules, you can pack up really tight without fear of blasts.
Depending on which Base you modelled Celestine, you can pretty much use 2 Seraphim to bubble wrap her...
Why can't she? Just deepstrike them both close together and pretend they're the same unit.
She doesn't deep strike. Odd for a character with a jetpack eh?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pretre wrote: Why would you want to deepstrike her? she's basically guaranteed a first turn charge if you start her on the board.
A first turn charge, solo. She hits hard, but I'd rather not have her with just her to guards - I want flight of the damn valkyries to be playing when all the angels show up.
Very disappointing Errata. I guess my Exorcists are going into storage. I'm going to try dropping seraphim with melta pistols as tank and character hunting squads. Other than that, not much use.
I'm not giving up on Exorcists right away. Sure they need a Canoness and a Command Reroll or two to prop them up, but I really can't imagine fielding a Sisters force without at least one. So iconic and rule of cool.
Also for at least a little while they will continue to draw a massive amount of fire as they always have done, and now that they're as tough as a leman russ they're well placed to absorb a ton of it.
Also the Organs are great for hiding the Canoness and Imagifier behind while they buff the Heavy Bolters doing the real damage
A few pages back people were talking about how expensive various squads of Sisters are. Having mostly gotten used models, I didn't really have an accurate view of the cost of new GW sisters. That said, I've been quite happy with the TGG2 Kickstarter Sisters. And at $20 to $30 per squad of 5, they are not only prettier, but half as expensive.
Now that Seraphim Hand Flamers have been nerfed, I'm now wondering whether splitting the a squad of ten into two squads of five might be better.
One the one hand, Act of Faith for extra shooting on a squad of ten is twice as good. On the other, deepstriking 5 later in the game to grab an objective, or attack an important/isolated unit might also be quite valuable.
With careful eBaying last fall, and I've managed to average less than $8 a model for my metal sisters. Since Celestine reappeared though, I've had a much tougher time staying in that range.
I will say this... some of the models on eBay are going for more than what GW is asking for directly... if you go that route, be wise.
Now, I mostly need some vehicles... and I expect to pay retail for those.
Sisters stuff on eBay is currently going for a real high premium, and most of what's on there is junk unless you want a $95 Immolator or a broken primer black Canoness for $30. I just checked a few hours ago for Inferno pistols now that the hand flamers suck and stole 5 of the Blood Angel ones for about $18 with shipping as a Buy It Now. I saw that 7 people were watching it, I assume at least one of em is on here. Sorry!
The canoness model comes with one, or at least they did several years ago. I made a celestian unit out of the 10 I bought, mostly so they'd stand out from other sisters.
Paimon wrote: That said, I've been quite happy with the TGG2 Kickstarter Sisters. And at $20 to $30 per squad of 5, they are not only prettier, but half as expensive.
Kind of curious about the TGG2 minis. I am very late to the party on this but are they still available? I'd love to get my hands on them, I have way too many identical minis in my army for my own liking.
IandI wrote: Sisters stuff on eBay is currently going for a real high premium, and most of what's on there is junk unless you want a $95 Immolator or a broken primer black Canoness for $30. I just checked a few hours ago for Inferno pistols now that the hand flamers suck and stole 5 of the Blood Angel ones for about $18 with shipping as a Buy It Now. I saw that 7 people were watching it, I assume at least one of em is on here. Sorry!
Is it ever! Off topic but as above I have a tonne of sisters minis including another 40-50 deflashed bare metal sisters in my closet.... Hmm.
What is the overall opinion on Repressors? Have been formulating plans to convert a small fleet of them but am on the fence. I have not played since 5th so am still acclimating to all of these rules changes. First glance they look fantastic on paper.
It turns out buying that huge lot of Sisters a year or two ago was a good idea. It has allowed me to react to these changes quickly and easily.
Spent under $2 a model too
As for tactics I want to play around with a fast attack bum rush list. Lots of Doms in Immos vanguard moving, advancing first turn supported by Seraphim moved up via Hand of Emperor to keep pace.
I want to be in my opponent's face quickly killing stuff and disrupting his plans.
I've always said that if I was going to start sisters now that I would buy sisters of silence and use third party sisters heads to swap the heads out. That plus bits buying Meltas and heavy weapons should get you what you need.
As for repressors? They are cheaper than Immos and have fire points. What's not to like?
Paimon wrote: That said, I've been quite happy with the TGG2 Kickstarter Sisters. And at $20 to $30 per squad of 5, they are not only prettier, but half as expensive.
Kind of curious about the TGG2 minis. I am very late to the party on this but are they still available? I'd love to get my hands on them, I have way too many identical minis in my army for my own liking.
I think that the main troops set are not out for main release yet, but i should not be too long from now... Kickstarter buyers have received them i think, so general release should be soon.
The only issue I have with my Sister fig collection is that I only have one stormbolter fig that hasn't been converted to a combi-weapon. With easily over a hundred painted bolter Sisters I am exploring the cheapest and easiest way to turn bolters into passable stormbolters on already painted models. Apart from Imagifers my lists haven't had a single bolter in them (all combi's, stormbolters, seraphim or heavy weapons) so I have been able to tell all my opponents that the bolters are ALL stormbolters. Which has worked so far, but I need to get started on the conversions. Thinking right now of just removing the barrels and putting two smaller ones cut from tubing side by side.
6 squads of doms with combi melta and four stormbolters all in repressors is doing quite nice for me.
Ah, I have a similar ptoblem, except I don't have that many bolters either and my backfield superiors will still need some since I'm really short on points.
I do for some reason have 12 HB Sisters already painted.
dracpanzer wrote: The only issue I have with my Sister fig collection is that I only have one stormbolter fig that hasn't been converted to a combi-weapon. With easily over a hundred painted bolter Sisters I am exploring the cheapest and easiest way to turn bolters into passable stormbolters on already painted models. Apart from Imagifers my lists haven't had a single bolter in them (all combi's, stormbolters, seraphim or heavy weapons) so I have been able to tell all my opponents that the bolters are ALL stormbolters. Which has worked so far, but I need to get started on the conversions. Thinking right now of just removing the barrels and putting two smaller ones cut from tubing side by side.
6 squads of doms with combi melta and four stormbolters all in repressors is doing quite nice for me.
If you're chopping anyways, the Grenade sister, Superior with Extended Bolter, any of the HW sisters, etc all make easy chop and swap for special weapons. Heck, magnetize them so you can do it again later.
So I've got a couple more games under my belt, against some different armies, and my experience raises a question. I've now fought Orks, Chaos Marines, Tyranids, and Dark Eldar. I have had decisive wins against the horde armies and solid performances ending in marginal defeats or close draws against the others. I haven't fought the shootier armies yet, like Tau, Space Marines, and Eldar.
It is starting to feel to me like my Sisters army is optimized for a beta strike. I've been playing MSU and have never finished deployment first, but instead have the luxury of positioning Dominions and other task specific units in optimized locations. I've never won the Steal the Initiative roll, and don't know that I would've know what to do if I did. Against faster mob armies (Orks, Nids) I tend to deploy slightly back from the edge of my zone to limit their Turn 1 charge, while going to the line when I don't think the the enemy will come to me. My first turn movement is usually enough to position me for excellent shooting opportunities. Against Orks, I've annihilated bikes and dreds Turn 1 leaving only mobs of boyz; against Nids, I removed almost every little bug from the board on Turn 1 leaving only a Canifex, Trygon, and Primarch.
I feel like going second and letting my opponent drift into my optimum range has been excellent. I don't know if T1 would have quite the same punch if I went first and had to chase those ideal ranges myself, taking penalties to hit in the process. Is anyone else feeling like going second is fine, or even good? Is that pure foolishness against shootier armies like Marines and Tau?
For fun, here's a photo of 1000 points of Sisters taking on Dark Eldar last weekend. I brought, top to bottom, an Immo with Immolation Flamer, a Rhino w/ 2 BSS units of HF/F/CF, the Melta Doms (already disembarked from the Immo at the top), a small unit of Seraphim with hand flamers, Celestine and one of her pals (sorry, unpainted), an Immo with Heavy Bolters bearing a Retributer squad of heavy flamers, another HB Immo, and the second unit of melta Doms who just disembarked from it. Out of sight on the ridge to the right are a unit of HB Retributers and the Canoness. This is just after my Movement phases at the bottom of Turn 1; Vanguard had put both Immos in range for the Doms to disembark and get melta-rule shots on transports, and the second wave had 2 more transports with 10 mixed flamers arriving in a similar manner on Turn 2 to roast the occupants.
I should have taken a photo of the Tyranid game, but it was over too quickly... I killed nearly 40 genestealers (my opponent brought 3 units of 16 for a Battalion) in Turn 1 after they obligingly closed the range for me.
Like you said, you did not faced a shooty-heavy army.
Sisters were always a close range army, so when the opposing force comes closer to us, it's generally good because suddenly we can strike with our full force.
But there are tons of scary shooting army out there against which you really don't want to suffer two shooting phase before being able to gap close and do something. Against those, it's better IMHO to go first if you can, move as fast as possible and if you're not in optimal range, don't hesitate to pop smokes to become a lot more tanky.
Heavy Bolter Immolators seem to me to be fairly drastically inferior to Immolation Flamer Immolators. They average fewer shots with even fewer hits, because the tank takes a -1 penalty to hit if it moves.
And, if it's being an immobile bunker in the back, it also seems to me that I'd rather use a cheaper squad of Rets with more Heavy Bolter shots, or a marginally more expensive Exorcist with better utility against all possible targets, for the task.
I concur, I toyed with the idea of HB Immolators after my first game when the MM Immolators did Jack squat and the flamer version murdered tons of guys. But for me the auto hits far surpasses the range and cost benefits of the HB version. HB Retributors are cheaper and have more shots, and the extra range doesn't really help because 9 times out of 10 your payload of sisters wants to be close.
I do feel like the Immolation flamer is the best, the HB is okay, and the MM version is not worth the points. I'd rather have a Rhino and more points than the MM Immolator. Also, before anybody says it, I don't own any Repressors so they're out of the discussion.
I'm agreed on the superiority of the immolation flamer, but I only have one until I convert some more. Heavy bolters I have plenty, and they're not too bad unless you're forced to lean on them for heavy infantry or vehicles. I also need to acquire some more infantry heavy bolters before I can retire the ones on transports. My core group is Forge World-free, so Repressor conversions are far down my list.
I'm also liking Rhinos more and more. I've been messing with doubling up the units in them and haven't suffered for it yet. Vehicles are tough enough to get them where they're going and the chances of losing models in an explosion are not too terrible. I'm thinking of running Rhinos with a BSS unit with 2x melta guns and a combi-melta AND a Retributer unit with 4x heavy flamers. These would follow the Dominion Immos across the table, with meltas to finish off a vehicle that survived the initial melta rush and the flamers to pile on wounds and force saves for the occupants, while the Rhino adds storm bolter shots and screens against charging enemies.
That combo is just under 300 points. In a 1500 point game, one could run 2x Immos full of melta Doms, 1x Seraphim with flamers, 2x BSS w/ melta loadout and 2x Rets with heavy flamers doubled up in Rhinos, 1x HB Rets to stand in the back, Celestine, Canoness, and a few flex points to suit one's style. At 2000, add Exorcists, storm bolter blobs, Priests, Imagifiers, and make your way to a Brigade.
MrFlutterPie wrote: I am going to be retiring my rhinos in favor of Repressors. The cost difference vs what you get is too good to ignore.
I have seen the light! Glory to the Repressor hallelujah!!! May the burning remains of heretics light my path and guide me to salvation.
Didn't care for repressor spam in 7th, still don't care for it in 8th. I always, always regret not having better target saturation, better range, and a vehicle that's plenty terrifying on it's own once the girls hop out when I take a repressor.
I'd take it for melta girls but more than 1 or 2 just seems...icky to me.
Well I am going to talk about what you guys would say is sacrilegious and thats having a Ministorum army with no Sisters of Battle (except Celestine she basically fights with Astra Militarum or Sisters and her personal background is OK so she can come), So I intend to build an assault based list using Arco-Flagellants and the like in Rhino's trundling up the board and then unleashing the maniacs.
I intend to bring in support form the Astra Militarum to deal with flyers and Tanks (although I am deciding what form that support should take).
The reason for this is quite simple, I am not a fan of the Nuns with guns! I am not a fan of how they play which is mid/close range firepower and I am not a fan of their Aesthetic or Fluff. I am a fan however of the rest of the Ecclesiarchy namely the Frateris Militia (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Frateris_Militia) .
I think Arco flagellants are excellent and only Khorne Berzerkers compete with them for sheer number of attacks. Penitent Engines I think have potential I am not sure whether I will take them at the moment (if I could get people's thoughts on these that would be great) .
I am not sure whether Death cult Assassins or Crusaders are worth it compared to Arco-Flagellants I will have to have a look and make up my mind (again people's thoughts on this would be great) .
So people's opinions on the Crusaders, Death cult assassins, Arco flagellants and Death cult Assassins would be nice and feel free to try and convert me to Sisters (I don't think you will make me repent but you can try!)
MrFlutterPie wrote: I am going to be retiring my rhinos in favor of Repressors. The cost difference vs what you get is too good to ignore.
I have seen the light! Glory to the Repressor hallelujah!!! May the burning remains of heretics light my path and guide me to salvation.
Didn't care for repressor spam in 7th, still don't care for it in 8th. I always, always regret not having better target saturation, better range, and a vehicle that's plenty terrifying on it's own once the girls hop out when I take a repressor.
I'd take it for melta girls but more than 1 or 2 just seems...icky to me.
The Repressor is the same cost as a similarly loaded Immolator, so you're not getting any more target saturation. It's more durable than Rhinos or Immolators, has the same firepower as an Immolator with 2x Flamers (albiet with lesser range/mobility,) and makes for a vastly superior transport than Immolators and a somewhat better one than Rhinos.
Where's the drawback?
Automatically Appended Next Post: 0604854:
I've used a Penitent Engine twice. Once against a shootybangbang list, once against a semi-shooty Death Guard list.
Against pure ShootyBangBang, it wasn't great, but against the hybrid list, it did wonders. On the charge it does enough damage to kill most midstrength enemies, and thanks to its 'Double-attack' ability, you could potentially move 12" in the Fight phase through pile in and consolidation. I was able to literally rampage across the board with mine, which was one of my favorite moments from 8th so far.
MrFlutterPie wrote: I am going to be retiring my rhinos in favor of Repressors. The cost difference vs what you get is too good to ignore.
I have seen the light! Glory to the Repressor hallelujah!!! May the burning remains of heretics light my path and guide me to salvation.
Didn't care for repressor spam in 7th, still don't care for it in 8th. I always, always regret not having better target saturation, better range, and a vehicle that's plenty terrifying on it's own once the girls hop out when I take a repressor.
I'd take it for melta girls but more than 1 or 2 just seems...icky to me.
The Repressor is the same cost as a similarly loaded Immolator, so you're not getting any more target saturation. It's more durable than Rhinos or Immolators, has the same firepower as an Immolator with 2x Flamers (albiet with lesser range/mobility,) and makes for a vastly superior transport than Immolators and a somewhat better one than Rhinos.
Where's the drawback?
Automatically Appended Next Post: 0604854:
I've used a Penitent Engine twice. Once against a shootybangbang list, once against a semi-shooty Death Guard list.
Against pure ShootyBangBang, it wasn't great, but against the hybrid list, it did wonders. On the charge it does enough damage to kill most midstrength enemies, and thanks to its 'Double-attack' ability, you could potentially move 12" in the Fight phase through pile in and consolidation. I was able to literally rampage across the board with mine, which was one of my favorite moments from 8th so far.
I am thinking with the Flagellants in Rhino's also drawing firepower that these guys could get into the fight and do some good damage.
pretre wrote: No biggie. That's basically not a source.
Hindsight's 20-20, neh, what with the announcement of 10 codexes by the end of the year? That's about 2 a month
Even a broken clock.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
0604854 wrote: The reason for this is quite simple, I am not a fan of the Nuns with guns! I am not a fan of how they play which is mid/close range firepower and I am not a fan of their Aesthetic or Fluff. I am a fan however of the rest of the Ecclesiarchy namely the Frateris Militia (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Frateris_Militia) .
0604854 wrote: The reason for this is quite simple, I am not a fan of the Nuns with guns! I am not a fan of how they play which is mid/close range firepower and I am not a fan of their Aesthetic or Fluff. I am a fan however of the rest of the Ecclesiarchy namely the Frateris Militia (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Frateris_Militia) .
I think you may be in the wrong thread.
I agree. Sounds more like you want to play Guard and Ecclesiarchy. There's nothing wrong with that, but I'm not positive you're going to find what you're looking for here. Also, Conscripts probably make better Frateris Militia than Crusaders and Arco-Flagellants
pretre wrote: No biggie. That's basically not a source.
Hindsight's 20-20, neh, what with the announcement of 10 codexes by the end of the year? That's about 2 a month
Even a broken clock.
Honestly, considering GW themselves said they were going to be aggressive in getting Codexes out, the part about how quickly the codexes were coming combined with what we'd been hearing locally was totally believable. The order? *shrugs* I'll believe the order of release when I hear it from GW.
And MacPhail, I want to believe but I'm expecting Sisters to be left out in the cold. Again.
0604854 wrote: I think Arco flagellants are excellent and only Khorne Berzerkers compete with them for sheer number of attacks. Penitent Engines I think have potential I am not sure whether I will take them at the moment (if I could get people's thoughts on these that would be great) .
I am not sure whether Death cult Assassins or Crusaders are worth it compared to Arco-Flagellants I will have to have a look and make up my mind (again people's thoughts on this would be great) .
So people's opinions on the Crusaders, Death cult assassins, Arco flagellants and Death cult Assassins would be nice and feel free to try and convert me to Sisters (I don't think you will make me repent but you can try!)
I tried the crusaders, and I found they died to easily from morale while not packing enough punch. They can have a use of charging nasty CC unit that strike with small number of high S low AP attacks to tank them for a while with the 3++, but that's about it.
Death cults and arcos are both greats, it mostly depends on the target. I did some maths a while back comparing 10 death cults to 9 arcos + priest (170pts each), and as expected arcos a better at cleaning hordes but deathcults are better against everything from MEQ and above.
The reason for this is quite simple, I am not a fan of the Nuns with guns! I am not a fan of how they play which is mid/close range firepower and I am not a fan of their Aesthetic or Fluff. I am a fan however of the rest of the Ecclesiarchy namely the Frateris Militia (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Frateris_Militia) .
You're in the wrong place, my friend.
As for the other stuff [non Sisters-of-Battle stuff], I don't see a compelling reason to have it as an auxiliary to Guard. [Addendum: I don't see a compelling reason to have it a all.] You'd do better with just Guardsmen and their artillery.
Actually, I don't think Celestine is super viable in an IG list either. She needs to advance on the enemy to be effective, and without any other Sisters units, you're wasting an Act of Faith. There aren't any Imperial Guard units that can keep up with her, so she's going to be well beyond your front line and shot to death. A couple artillery pieces, or a Leman Russ tank variant of your choice, would contribute more to your force.
Anyway, I would recommend asking the Guard for tactica. After all, if you're not playing Sisters of Battle, Sisters of Battle tactica isn't particularly valuable to you, is it.
pretre wrote: Did talk about the Designer's commentary that made HB rets really good?
(Non-shooting phase attacks can target characters.)
Wait.. what?
Q. When can I target an enemy Character that has a
Wounds characteristic of less than 10?
A. Such a Character can only be targeted in the
Shooting phase if it is the nearest visible model to
the firing model. You can target enemy Characters
without restriction in the Psychic phase*, Charge
phase, Fight phase, etc. You may also make shooting
attacks at enemy Characters which occur outside the
Shooting phase (i.e. when resolving Overwatch in the
Charge phase).
*Note, however, that some psychic powers, such as Smite, do
not target units but instead affect the nearest enemy unit.
Overwatch is resolved like a normal
shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Charge
phase) and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is
always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the
firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Characters
Some models are noted as being a
Character on their datasheet.
These heroes, officers, prophets
and warlords are powerful
individuals that can have a great
impact on the course of a battle.
The swirling maelstrom of the
battlefield can make it difficult
to pick out such individuals as
targets, however. A Character
can only be chosen as a target in
the Shooting phase if they are the
closest visible enemy unit to the
model that is shooting. This does
not apply to Characters with
a Wounds characteristic of 10 or
more, due to their sheer size.
Yeah it's pretty clear why overwatch bypass the character rule. It's a shooting attack that happen during the charge phase (it litterally say so). So a rule that applies during the shooting phase has no power here.
On the other hand, during our AoF we shoot as if we were in the shooting phase. So for the purpose of the AoF shooting attack, we have to consider we're in the shooting phase.
P.S.: Also the character rule is a modifier of the normal shooting attack rules, not part of it.
Hello everyone, I'm new to this forum and a new player of the Sisters of Battle (750 ponts more or less) ,and I have a few questions regarding this army and I hope you brothers and sisters can help me!
The first one is about Sisters of Battle Dominion squad with new acts of faith combo. According to the index, the dominion sisters can move at the begining of the game because of a special rule. Can I move, then Act of Faith hand of the Emperor (to move again) and then move normally like moving phase? I think this is a good combo to hunt monsters with a full melta squad. Any suggestion or combos for the sisters?
The next one is about Celestine. She is my commander and, she is great, I absolutely love her and think she is one of the strongest Sisters of battle units in the codex. My friends are scared of Celestine because of this, and will always try to focus and kill her the fastest way possible. Any tips on proecting Celestine like for example hiding her in buildings? Any strategy to play her the optimal way possible? Thanks
Sorry if my english is kinda lame, but i hope you guys can understand it.
HollowAcid wrote: Hello everyone, I'm new to this forum and a new player of the Sisters of Battle (750 ponts more or less) ,and I have a few questions regarding this army and I hope you brothers and sisters can help me!
The first one is about Sisters of Battle Dominion squad with new acts of faith combo. According to the index, the dominion sisters can move at the begining of the game because of a special rule. Can I move, then Act of Faith hand of the Emperor (to move again) and then move normally like moving phase? I think this is a good combo to hunt monsters with a full melta squad. Any suggestion or combos for the sisters?
The next one is about Celestine. She is my commander and, she is great, I absolutely love her and think she is one of the strongest Sisters of battle units in the codex. My friends are scared of Celestine because of this, and will always try to focus and kill her the fastest way possible. Any tips on proecting Celestine like for example hiding her in buildings? Any strategy to play her the optimal way possible? Thanks
Sorry if my english is kinda lame, but i hope you guys can understand it.
Have a good night!
First: No, you can't. Because Acts of Faith occur before the movement phase, and a vehicle is ineligible to be the target of an Act of Faith, Dominions cannot move under Vanguard, move under Hand of the Emperor, and then disembark/move in the movement phase, because they'll still be loaded up in their transport at the time Hand of the Emperor occurs and aren't on the board to act.
Second: Seraphim or Dominions are fairly effective at protecting Celestine. She is a character, and cannot be targeted if a friendly unit is closer than she is, so Seraphim, who match her movement, and Dominions, who can get ahead of her with their Vanguard move, make good bodyguards. Hiding Celestine isn't something you want to do, because her shooting attack is hilariously weak. You want her to be in the enemy's face and hacking those traitors and xenos apart with her sword. Seraphim are better bodyguards than Dominions, because they can join her in the hack-and-slashing without a significant reduction in efficiency, but if you don't have any, just stay behind a Dominion squad. Also, the Dominions' transport can make an excellent bodyguard for her, just keep it between her and the scary enemy that might kill her.
I run Celestine either alone in small games or accompanied by a block of Seraphim. The Seraphim can help to soften up enemies and screen Celestine from fire, and are the target for the Saintly Blessings ability, so that both them and Celestine move up 12+D6" as an Act of Faith, and then move another 12" during their movement phase, then charge in the charge phase together.
HollowAcid wrote: Hello everyone, I'm new to this forum and a new player of the Sisters of Battle (750 ponts more or less) ,and I have a few questions regarding this army and I hope you brothers and sisters can help me!
The first one is about Sisters of Battle Dominion squad with new acts of faith combo. According to the index, the dominion sisters can move at the begining of the game because of a special rule. Can I move, then Act of Faith hand of the Emperor (to move again) and then move normally like moving phase? I think this is a good combo to hunt monsters with a full melta squad. Any suggestion or combos for the sisters?
The next one is about Celestine. She is my commander and, she is great, I absolutely love her and think she is one of the strongest Sisters of battle units in the codex. My friends are scared of Celestine because of this, and will always try to focus and kill her the fastest way possible. Any tips on proecting Celestine like for example hiding her in buildings? Any strategy to play her the optimal way possible? Thanks
Sorry if my english is kinda lame, but i hope you guys can understand it.
Have a good night!
First: No, you can't. Because Acts of Faith occur before the movement phase, and a vehicle is ineligible to be the target of an Act of Faith, Dominions cannot move under Vanguard, move under Hand of the Emperor, and then disembark/move in the movement phase, because they'll still be loaded up in their transport at the time Hand of the Emperor occurs and aren't on the board to act.
Second: Seraphim or Dominions are fairly effective at protecting Celestine. She is a character, and cannot be targeted if a friendly unit is closer than she is, so Seraphim, who match her movement, and Dominions, who can get ahead of her with their Vanguard move, make good bodyguards. Hiding Celestine isn't something you want to do, because her shooting attack is hilariously weak. You want her to be in the enemy's face and hacking those traitors and xenos apart with her sword. Seraphim are better bodyguards than Dominions, because they can join her in the hack-and-slashing without a significant reduction in efficiency, but if you don't have any, just stay behind a Dominion squad. Also, the Dominions' transport can make an excellent bodyguard for her, just keep it between her and the scary enemy that might kill her.
I run Celestine either alone in small games or accompanied by a block of Seraphim. The Seraphim can help to soften up enemies and screen Celestine from fire, and are the target for the Saintly Blessings ability, so that both them and Celestine move up 12+D6" as an Act of Faith, and then move another 12" during their movement phase, then charge in the charge phase together.
Thanks for the tips!
My army consists of:
Celestine and her bodyguards
1 Canoness
2 Imagifiers
20 Battle Sisters
1 Immolator
1 Penitent Engine
1 Rhino
5 Sisters of Silence
1 Canonness
and then 17 space marines that I play them like regular battle sisters since it's an expensive army and I can't afford the official price ones, so I stick with these guys and slowly replace them with sisters.
How should I continue my army? Maybe repentias or seraphims? Or stack even more battle sisters? Thanks for your help!
Be on the lookout for good options on ebay and in your local game circles to start building your collection. I'd say mess around with different unit builds, convert some combi weapons, and get your core force together, which probably doesn't need Repentia as much as fully loaded Dominions and Retributers. Play some games with different tactical outlooks too... fast vs. heavy vs. mech vs. blob, and proxy your Marines in casual games to try units you don't own.
HollowAcid wrote: The first one is about Sisters of Battle Dominion squad with new acts of faith combo. According to the index, the dominion sisters can move at the begining of the game because of a special rule. Can I move, then Act of Faith hand of the Emperor (to move again) and then move normally like moving phase? I think this is a good combo to hunt monsters with a full melta squad. Any suggestion or combos for the sisters?
First: No, you can't. Because Acts of Faith occur before the movement phase, and a vehicle is ineligible to be the target of an Act of Faith, Dominions cannot move under Vanguard, move under Hand of the Emperor, and then disembark/move in the movement phase, because they'll still be loaded up in their transport at the time Hand of the Emperor occurs and aren't on the board to act.
That isn't entirely accurate. The question was if Dominions can Vanguard move then move again with Hand of the Emperor then move normally in the movement phase. There was no mention of the Dominions being in a transport at any point during the sequence so the answer to the question is
Yes. As long as they're not in a transport at the start of the game, you can do exactly what you described for a 18+3d6 series of moves -- both Vanguard and Hand of the Emperor let you move as if it were the movement phase, so the unit can advance each time. Also, if you choose not to advance during the actual Movement phase you don't suffer the -1 to hit for Advancing with assault weapons and your rapid fire weapons can still shoot normally.
If the Dominions are in a transport, then they cannot be targeted by an Act of Faith but the rest is perfectly legal, including the bit about advancing. Just now you move and advance using the transport's speed.
Second: Seraphim or Dominions are fairly effective at protecting Celestine. She is a character, and cannot be targeted if a friendly unit is closer than she is, so Seraphim, who match her movement, and Dominions, who can get ahead of her with their Vanguard move, make good bodyguards. Hiding Celestine isn't something you want to do, because her shooting attack is hilariously weak. You want her to be in the enemy's face and hacking those traitors and xenos apart with her sword. Seraphim are better bodyguards than Dominions, because they can join her in the hack-and-slashing without a significant reduction in efficiency, but if you don't have any, just stay behind a Dominion squad. Also, the Dominions' transport can make an excellent bodyguard for her, just keep it between her and the scary enemy that might kill her.
I run Celestine either alone in small games or accompanied by a block of Seraphim. The Seraphim can help to soften up enemies and screen Celestine from fire, and are the target for the Saintly Blessings ability, so that both them and Celestine move up 12+D6" as an Act of Faith, and then move another 12" during their movement phase, then charge in the charge phase together.
Think of Celestine as a distraction Carnifex -- something you know will draw a lot of firepower to take down. Also remember that she can use her own Act of Faith on herself and can use it to either revive a lost Geminae (at 1 wound) OR to heal herself D3 wounds in addition to using it to move or fight. In addition, if Celestine has passed her once per game return from the dead roll, dies again, and you still have Geminae on the table you can use her automatic Act of Faith to bring Celestine back with 1 Wound because the Geminae only go away if you fail her Miraculous Intervention roll and as long as at least 1 model is alive in the unit, the AoF can be used to bring back any model in the unit.
First: No, you can't. Because Acts of Faith occur before the movement phase, and a vehicle is ineligible to be the target of an Act of Faith, Dominions cannot move under Vanguard, move under Hand of the Emperor, and then disembark/move in the movement phase, because they'll still be loaded up in their transport at the time Hand of the Emperor occurs and aren't on the board to act.
Second: Seraphim or Dominions are fairly effective at protecting Celestine. She is a character, and cannot be targeted if a friendly unit is closer than she is, so Seraphim, who match her movement, and Dominions, who can get ahead of her with their Vanguard move, make good bodyguards. Hiding Celestine isn't something you want to do, because her shooting attack is hilariously weak. You want her to be in the enemy's face and hacking those traitors and xenos apart with her sword. Seraphim are better bodyguards than Dominions, because they can join her in the hack-and-slashing without a significant reduction in efficiency, but if you don't have any, just stay behind a Dominion squad. Also, the Dominions' transport can make an excellent bodyguard for her, just keep it between her and the scary enemy that might kill her.
I run Celestine either alone in small games or accompanied by a block of Seraphim. The Seraphim can help to soften up enemies and screen Celestine from fire, and are the target for the Saintly Blessings ability, so that both them and Celestine move up 12+D6" as an Act of Faith, and then move another 12" during their movement phase, then charge in the charge phase together.
Thanks for the tips!
My army consists of:
Celestine and her bodyguards
1 Canoness
2 Imagifiers
20 Battle Sisters
1 Immolator
1 Penitent Engine
1 Rhino
5 Sisters of Silence
1 Canonness
and then 17 space marines that I play them like regular battle sisters since it's an expensive army and I can't afford the official price ones, so I stick with these guys and slowly replace them with sisters.
How should I continue my army? Maybe repentias or seraphims? Or stack even more battle sisters? Thanks for your help!
'
More vehicles, I'd recommend. While the Exorcist was nerfed hard, by comparison, it still isn't bad, and having transport tanks for Dominions is, in my opinion, a must-have. In addition, if you don't have special-weapon wielding Sisters, I'd pick up a pile pronto. Right now, I'm having a hard time finding a reason not to run an army consisting almost entirely of Storm Bolter and Melta Dominions in Repressors and Immolators or than "I won't have friends anymore". [Also, I don't nearly have enough Storm Bolters]
Also, Taikishi is right. Dominions can receive and Act of Faith on turn one, but if and only if they didn't start the game inside of a transport. I personally think that the transports are essential, but that may also be ingrained experience from editions gone by.
For the Emperor! May He grant you victory in your battles!
For that matter, why take an Exorcist when you can take a quad-las Predator. The Exorcist is 20% cheaper that a quad-las Predator but 40% less effective against vehicles. :(
If anything, the Exorcist is a heavy armored infantry killer now, not a vehicle/MC killer, and there are probably other vehicles in the Imperial Armory that can do that job better as well.
Think of Celestine as a distraction Carnifex -- something you know will draw a lot of firepower to take down. Also remember that she can use her own Act of Faith on herself and can use it to either revive a lost Geminae (at 1 wound) OR to heal herself D3 wounds in addition to using it to move or fight. In addition, if Celestine has passed her once per game return from the dead roll, dies again, and you still have Geminae on the table you can use her automatic Act of Faith to bring Celestine back with 1 Wound because the Geminae only go away if you fail her Miraculous Intervention roll and as long as at least 1 model is alive in the unit, the AoF can be used to bring back any model in the unit.
Her AoF wouldn't fire if she's dead, but you can burn one of the standard ones on the initial phase. It would be hilarious if she rez'd next to an imagifier, and then fired off a D3 heal after the rez. Oh....and now that's she on the board after her rez, can she then use her AoF if you haven't started your movement portion of the phase?
Taikishi wrote: For that matter, why take an Exorcist when you can take a quad-las Predator. The Exorcist is 20% cheaper that a quad-las Predator but 40% less effective against vehicles. :(
If anything, the Exorcist is a heavy armored infantry killer now, not a vehicle/MC killer, and there are probably other vehicles in the Imperial Armory that can do that job better as well.
Id like to see your math on that (just curious), but the Exorcist is also a tougher nut to crack than the Predator is due to that increased toughness and extra wound. The price difference means that for the points I save on one of them I can include a Canoness to confer rerolls in the backfield.
Compare to the melta-dominions or penitent engine which gives you more immediate bang but less longevity.
My wife and I played a game yesterday where she made her army "Imperial" instead, and simply swapped out her Exorcists/Cannoness/Imagifier points (from pre-FAQ she was running a little gun-castle with 2x each and a Cannoness for buffs in the backfield), with the same points in Earth-shaker Batteries... and the increase in power was horrific and shocking.
She had almost triple the amount of shots, between the Shaker's costing half an Exorcist, and their rolling 2d6 taking highest for number of shots.
It was also a bummer for her, as she would much rather use her well painted, well loved Sisters models... and yet here is a weird case of one model just objectively being better than hers in every meaningful way.
Captain Joystick wrote: I clearly don't know guard enough. Are you talking about a bassilisk or something else?
I think he means the Forge World Earthshaker Battery, which are an Earthshaker gun minus the Chimera chassis. They're immobile gun platforms that trade mobility and a fair bit of durability for a ~25% decrease in cost. For reference, two of them are the same cost as a single Exorcist.
Taikishi wrote:
Also, if you choose not to advance during the actual Movement phase you don't suffer the -1 to hit for Advancing with assault weapons and your rapid fire weapons can still shoot normally.
Unfortunately I don't think this part isn't completely accurate, as Advancing states:
A unit that Advances can’t shoot or charge later that turn.
So if you Advance during any of the the Vanguard/Act of Faith/normal Movements, you forego non-assault shooting later that turn. Interestingly I think this would cause you to be unable to fire Overwatch with non-Assault weapons on the first turn if you Advance during your Vanguard movement.
Yeah I don't think Vanguard would trigger your advance (and block the assault later) - since you get to move again in the normal phase. It happens before the game actually starts. That's a good one for a FAQ though.
AlexHeap wrote: Vanguard happens before the first turn so you can advance with that without any problems.
Quite true! Thanks for pointing that out. That does eke out a bit more movement for the Dominions.
I'm not seeing a lot of reason to take Sisters that aren't Dominions or Seraphim. Vanguard is such a powerful rule, and the ability to take 4 specials more than makes up for Dominions' increased cost over Battle Sisters. Seraphim have several things going for them as well, though I still think more than a single unit as a Celestine escort is probably too many. I predict a lot of Outrider detachments in our future, unless people are willing to dip into non-Sororitas Troops choices.
Yeah, I was referring to the Earth-Shaker FW thingie. It looks like a Howitzer. Crazy efficient models, and their barrels are so long she could hide them almost entirely in terrain for cover, with just the barrel sticking out for LoS purposes.
I'm not seeing a lot of reason to take Sisters that aren't Dominions or Seraphim. Vanguard is such a powerful rule, and the ability to take 4 specials more than makes up for Dominions' increased cost over Battle Sisters. Seraphim have several things going for them as well, though I still think more than a single unit as a Celestine escort is probably too many. I predict a lot of Outrider detachments in our future, unless people are willing to dip into non-Sororitas Troops choices.
Retributors can make for solid gun line support. And if you've got primarily Dominions in vehicles, they can make for solid use of acts of faith to pepper the enemy with heavy bolter shots in the early-game.
So I started re-basing all the girls on 32mm - I do like it overall. I had to clip the stock seraphim supports, so currently messing with 3mm acrylic rod to make new flying bases. Wish I still had my mini-lathe, I'd just cut down the stems a bit on the ends and drill out a 2mm hole in their base :(
So I'm thinking of grabbing a talons of the emp and was wondering how to include them as anti psyer and a little bit more beef with the custodes. What's the best outfit for them to support sisters?
Oberron wrote: So I'm thinking of grabbing a talons of the emp and was wondering how to include them as anti psyer and a little bit more beef with the custodes. What's the best outfit for them to support sisters?
I'd probably give the sisters of silence swords, since sisters of battle already have the bolter and flamer thing pretty much covered. They also look cool.
I run the SoS with greatblades - they function as either SoS, or as Crusaders. The Crusader wargear only lists the blade, the stormshield is an ability - so it fits WYSWG - and looks fantastic. You could always toss some shields on their back for fun too
Oberron wrote:So I'm thinking of grabbing a talons of the emp and was wondering how to include them as anti psyer and a little bit more beef with the custodes. What's the best outfit for them to support sisters?
Executioner Greatswords. Apart from the fact that they look awesome with the swords, they're really good. They're less good this edition, because the value of AP2 is reduced and they no longer have I5, but the other two options are covered better and cheaper by our own troops.
Captain Joystick wrote: I clearly don't know guard enough. Are you talking about a bassilisk or something else?
There are actually 2 dismounted Earthshaker units, the Earthshaker Platform, which has a cruciform chassis with the Basilisk platform, gun, and shield on a swivel on top of it, and the Heavy Artillery Carriage with Earthshaker Gun, which is a split-trail artillery carriage with the gun mounted on it.
I'm guessing it's the latter of the two, because the former is fairly uncommon to see and hear about, and the latter is apparently really, really good this edition.
Anyway, with regards to the towed artillery units, they've always outclassed other artillery options, because they're half the price of the self-propelled kind and it's not like the armor of the Basilisk was doing any work. For the record, though, because of the Medusa's really short range, I preferred the self-propelled Medusa Siege Gun to the towed Medusa Siege Gun.
Fafnir wrote:Why take an Exorcist when the Manticore is better and cheaper?
Taikishi wrote:For that matter, why take an Exorcist when you can take a quad-las Predator. The Exorcist is 20% cheaper that a quad-las Predator but 40% less effective against vehicles. :(
Why take Sisters at all if you would rather just play SM or IG units?
Why come to a Sisters of Battle thread and yap on about playing other armies?
Or, why not just bring Repressor Doms and Celestine and Inferno Seraphim and smoke all your Moomoo's and quad-las Poo poo's?
Sisters players play them because they love the army, not because they are hunting for the best math hammered abomination of a net list.
Fafnir wrote:Why take an Exorcist when the Manticore is better and cheaper?
Taikishi wrote:For that matter, why take an Exorcist when you can take a quad-las Predator. The Exorcist is 20% cheaper that a quad-las Predator but 40% less effective against vehicles. :(
Why take Sisters at all if you would rather just play SM or IG units?
Why come to a Sisters of Battle thread and yap on about playing other armies?
Or, why not just bring Repressor Doms and Celestine and Inferno Seraphim and smoke all your Moomoo's and quad-las Poo poo's?
Sisters players play them because they love the army, not because they are hunting for the best math hammered abomination of a net list.
...because you can easily run a Manticore as part of a Sisters army?
Fafnir wrote:Why take an Exorcist when the Manticore is better and cheaper?
Taikishi wrote:For that matter, why take an Exorcist when you can take a quad-las Predator. The Exorcist is 20% cheaper that a quad-las Predator but 40% less effective against vehicles. :(
Why take Sisters at all if you would rather just play SM or IG units?
Why come to a Sisters of Battle thread and yap on about playing other armies?
Or, why not just bring Repressor Doms and Celestine and Inferno Seraphim and smoke all your Moomoo's and quad-las Poo poo's?
Sisters players play them because they love the army, not because they are hunting for the best math hammered abomination of a net list.
Because Sisters tactica at this point might as well include all Imperium since we can cherry pick what we want to bring? Like I said (possibly elsewhere), Exos are a better heavy infantry killer then tank killer now.
But for tank and monster hunting? Exorcist currently aren't worth their points. Maybe once the codex drops or if we could still AoF to double fire, but we don't know when the Codex is dropping and the AoF wagon has currently passed.
Oberron wrote: What about custodes and their dread to help sisters? Would the custodes fit a good melee roll too and the dread as fire support/bullet sponge
I've done that.
I can say that, honestly, I was unimpressed by the Custodians this edition. They are extremely expensive.
In an IG list, I tried to fight carnifexes with them, which was unsuccessful, to say the least. That way my bad, though. However, the points spent on them, their vehicle, and their dreadnought could have gone towards an entire battery of artillery and another Leman Russ Punisher, which would have added far more than they did to the list.
In a Sisters list, my Necron opponent nearly quit the match over their presence, because "he couldn't kill them", but up unto that point he actually hadn't fired a thing at them apart from a single round of overwatch from an Annihilation Barge that they killed in melee [which, for the record, was the only thing they managed to kill. Their Land Raider killed a Triarch Stalker, too.] He killed 3 of them in the following turn with all his remaining firepower. However, I can't say for certain if additional Sisters would have been better because our Meltaguns are almost entirely ineffective against the Annihilation Barges and Ghost Arks, thanks to Quantum Shielding. I can't really think of a good way to penetrate Quantum Shielding, but I'm almost 100% certain bringing Earthshakers or Exorcists would have been more efficient.
That means that, with a command point, Exorcists are only 30% less effective than Predators instead of 40%. It's an improvement, but still not enough to justify the fact they're only 20% cheaper than Predators.
Here's what the numbers looked like when we could RAWAoF them using an Imagifier:
So with the ability to use an AoF AND a CP, an Exorcist + Imagifier is 2% more effective than a Quad-las Predator. While that looks good on paper, that still seems a bit overcosted because you're now using three resources (Heavy slot, Elites slot, CP) and spending similar amounts of points (200 vs 202) for the same level of effectiveness.
Woah, back it off a bit. People do care about relative effectiveness. There's also such a thing as converting models to represent SOB versions of other units.
I, for instance, have 3 penitent engines with double autocannon arms.
pretre wrote: Woah, back it off a bit. People do care about relative effectiveness. There's also such a thing as converting models to represent SOB versions of other units.
I, for instance, have 3 penitent engines with double autocannon arms.
And yet they can't actually be SoB in the rules even if you convert them.
I've always been a fan of malleable Imperial forces, having been around since the era where Daemonhunters and Witch Hunters were meant to be allied codecies in the first place. Inquisition being written into unplayability is basically just further impetus to mix in a wider breadth of units, since what should have been the face of my force is not even usable anymore. Inquisitor Tumnal is too busy filing paperwork for all of his requisitions to make it to the battlefield himself!
I see nothing wrong with Sisters being part of a greater whole in an army (although I do wish it was represented more as Sisters with Celestine as an option amoungst many, as opposed to optimal solutions being Celestine with some obligatory sisters so as not to waste faith). If anything, it only makes sense for the Imperial Guard to find their way into just about every Imperial force in one way or another.
Melissia wrote: Nobody gives a damn because they're predators and therefor not a part of this army. Go back to the marine threads.
It does matter. Logical comparisons with other data sources are how you find flaws. I find it very interesting, as it shows the nature of the tanks have diverged - one hunts armor, the other hunts heavy infantry now.
1. Appreciate the people who are either standing up for me/my posts, or standing up to Melissia. Don't necessarily need it, but I appreciate it.
2. Melissia, you might want to get your facts straight. Check my post count and where those posts are. 68 posts, 64 in tactica, all in Sisters threads.
I get you want to play pure Sisters, but don't berate me for trying to give people informed information. I was asked for the math, I gave it.
3. You're correct that Predators aren't part of the Sisters sub-faction, but we are Imperial first. If the God-Emperor deems that I should bring a team of Ratling abhumans to smite Heretics and Witches with, then I shall do so at His pleasure.
Hell, imo, bikes, non-grav Centurions and Predators should be part of our armory anyway and one of the few fan dexes I actually like is Sister Sidney's. If anything, I'm taking things I think should already be ours and just adding them to the list.
4. As a tank hunter, the Exorcist simply doesn't do the job anymore; anyone who tries to use one that way is wasting valuable shots that can be taken at other targets, and possibly valuable points that could be better put into Dominions, Melta-Retributors (maybe), and Melta-Immolators.
Twin multi-melta on an Immolator is 3.11 outside melta range, 3.97 inside melta-range.
Hell, even Celestine is a a decent tank hunter now:. If you give her the Warlord Trait for +1A:
7 * 5/6 * 1/2 * 5/6 * 2
7 * 25/36
4.86 WPT
3.11/4.86 = 0.64
160/150 = 1.07
That's not counting Geminae and not counting any usage of Acts of Faith. That being said, Celestine is better used as a scalpel and not a blunt instrument for hammering your oppnent's tanks into scrap.
5. What you're missing is I'm actually ANGRY about this. I have three Exorcists; if I were playing 8E, they'd be sitting on the shelf collecting dust because they don't do the job they've done since third edition: murder tanks and MCs
The +1S, +1T and 6++ don't justify a vehicle that should be between 125 and 140 points costing 160. That or quad-las Predators are cheaper than they should be, and I don't discount that possibility either.
Melissia wrote: Nobody gives a damn because they're predators and therefor not a part of this army. Go back to the marine threads.
It does matter. Logical comparisons with other data sources are how you find flaws. I find it very interesting, as it shows the nature of the tanks have diverged - one hunts armor, the other hunts heavy infantry now.
A mathammer comparison for the Exorcist vs vehicles or vs infantry is not the same as advocating that the army be played with whatever units are better than Sister units in every slot. Which perhaps apart from Celestine is easy to find in every slot in many of the other Imperial armies.
Also? Just because you have posts in tactics threads doesn't really mean much. Am I supposed to be impressed or something? If we're going to be measuring each others' quality based on post counts, mine's on a whole other level that can only be compared with a few other posters on this forum So let's not. It's a silly and pointless game to play.
I'm a purist, I don't deny. But the thing is, predators aren't Sisters of Battle units. Sisters can't take them. Even if Predators are wholly and utterly superior, because Exorcists are our only choice, they may very well be a viable choice. Or may not. All depends on everything else Sisters DO have.
I never said anything about post count. I said look at my posts and where they are. 94% of them have been in the tactica threads, 100% of which have been in Sisters threads yet you advocated I return to posting in Marine tactica threads, which I have never done
And stop thinking 3rd through 7th edition -- Sisters can absolutely take Predators if you want. It's an Imperium vehicle, just like the Stormlord or the Avenger Strike Fighter, just like the old 2nd edition allies rules. Until we're given Order-specific stratagems or other rules that require you to play a force consisting of only Adepta Sororitas keyword or <Order> keyword, there's no point in not discussing the merits and flaws of including other Imperium units in a Sisters army.
I get you want to be a purist, I respect you want to be a purist. I just want to give people more information. This isn't "go play Space Marines, Sisters are junk". This is "if you want a tank hunter, consider other alternatives. The Exorcist is overcosted as a tank hunter and really isn't a tank hunter anymore."
I agree, I just think we should focus on Sisters alternatives rather than Space Marines alternatives. My post was, like a lot of things I post, a bit overstating my point. But still. There's things purist Sisters can take that are better at being heavy support or anti-tank than exorcists, such as Penitent Engines, Retributors, melta-doms, etc.
Why? Those non-Sisters alternatives are completely viable until we're given reasons why they aren't like the examples I gave above. Like the force I wanted to build for Castellans but never got to that was mostly Sisters (BSS, Dominions, Exos, Seraphim) but also included Sentinels, Raptors bikes, Raptors Sternguard... Some type of fast, in your face strike force.
And, hell, I'm still wondering where our Dominica Drop Pod is so we can drop Retributors into melta-range and let them rip apart a Knight or Land Raider. Or drop those same Retributors with Heavy Flamers behind some heretics to toast!
Though now I am curious. If I'd been math-hammering Imperial Guard tanks, would we be arguing this? Or is it because I'm bringing up SM alternatives in particular? I'm willing to take this part of the conversation to PMs, I just want to know so I can understand a little better and understand you a little better.
While it's true that in the lore, elements of the Imperial Guard is at least more likely to operate under the de facto command (if not de jure) of a Sisters of Battle commander than elements of the Adeptus Astartes, unless you're doing a themed list (say, Holy Crusade list as it were) I usually counsel not doing it. Actually, guard DO benefit from Ecclesiarchy character buffs...
I'm glad you posted the comparison. I pretty much exclusively play ITC rules and as long as 50.1% of your army is SoB, it's a SoB army. I try to be a purist as much as possible, but Exos that can't use AoF aren't worth their points. I'll probably get 2x earthskakers and possibly a second avenger. I've played one game with the Avenger and it was pretty decent. The tactical bombs were neat. I welcome all comparisons you want to put iin this channel.
As much as I've wanted to be a purist, Sisters really have a very incomplete toolkit that might be perfectly fine for beating your friends' fluffy armies, but is going to not be top tier.
I like this edition breaking up the IG platoons and the Imperial detachments because it makes adding guard much more viable (previously I was generally having to ally in space marines to avoid hefty troop taxes).
I guess in my case, it's not so much a desire for purity as a desire to field a non-SM Imperial army.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
deviantduck wrote: I'm glad you posted the comparison. I pretty much exclusively play ITC rules and as long as 50.1% of your army is SoB, it's a SoB army. I try to be a purist as much as possible, but Exos that can't use AoF aren't worth their points. I'll probably get 2x earthskakers and possibly a second avenger. I've played one game with the Avenger and it was pretty decent. The tactical bombs were neat. I welcome all comparisons you want to put iin this channel.
Considering that people were complaining that the Blood Angels tournament winner wasn't a legit blood angels because a third of the six fliers in the list were from the regular SM flyer list rather than the BA flyer list (which contains just stormravens)... and at least one person told me my BA list isn't properly BA even though it contains 100% units in the BA unit list...
I'm not sure very many people would follow that 50%+1 rule for figuring out what a certain army belongs to.
Regardless, I'd say retributors are a far better heavy support choice and advocate melta-doms as dedicated anti-tank. Either one in repressors is easily able to get in range to deal their best damage.
I got to try a pure Ministorum list against Chaos the other day. (It wasn't pure Sisters, since I brought one Priest, but... Close enough.)
I brought a bunch of Battle Sisters with Storm Bolters, partly because I hadn't considered how cheesy Dominions can be when used as basic infantry, but mostly because I was just trying to fill out a Brigade.
Thoughts?
Well, my pair of Exorcists kicked butt, but I also never rolled below a '3' for number of shots, and never got a '1' for damage, so... It was more luck than efficiency.
Retributors were meh on their own... Which is why I didn't have them on their own. With a Canoness and an Act of Faith to boost them up, they had hella good firepower that let me shred... Pretty much anything! I don't think I finished off any single unit with them, but I was able to put pressure on a ton of different units all together.
My swarm of basic troops was pretty darn good. He had Poxwalkers buffed by Typhus, but Celestine was able to sneak in and hit Typhus, and even before he was down, I had 100 bolter shots coming downfield from a mere 30 models, which was really fun and impressive, and let me put enough wounds on his hordes to keep them from getting overwhelming.
Seraphim with Hand Flamers were kinda junk. For their cost... I should have just brought more Storm Bolters.
Seraphim with Melta Pistols were significantly less junk. Thanks to Acts of Faith letting me cover a ton of ground in a single turn, I could get right up by his vulnerable tanks. I'm definitely seeing these chicks as a viable alternative to Melta Dominions - They're not *quite* as good, but they're close, and since the melta pistols are two per model rather than one per model, the 'Bring a dead sister back to life' AoF becomes pretty potent if you have it to spare and don't need the double-move.
Speaking of which, Melta dominions in a Repressor are theoretically scary. I wouldn't know, because the Repressor scared my opponent enough that he poured fire into killing it right away, so I just had a footslogging squad instead. It did pretty good though, regardless, popping a Predator.
Repentia never really got a chance to shine, mostly due to everything near them being killed before they could get out of their Rhino. Once I did get them out of their Rhino and charge... Well, all that was left to fight was some poxwalkers and one unit of Plague Marines, but they cleaned up those Poxwalkers and Plague Marines with ruthless efficiency. I think having a Mistress of Repentance and Ministorum Priest nearby are both mandatory, for the rerolls and bonus attacks, and while it's not the most devastating unit ever, it can lay down the hurt on heavy infantry/2w and 3w models. If you can soak up overwatch, it's a great way to kill Terminators and bikes.
Things you want in every list so far from experience.
Celestine - I've found her to be very fragile this edition. Once she is focused on she goes down quickly. If you rush up her up too quickly and leave her support behind she will die. I use her to counter charge or hit weaker flanks, otherwise I keep her close to the dominions to use her act of faith on them.
3-4 Dominions with Meltas in Immolation Flamers Immolators - They can deal with anything in the game right now and will effectively murder anything you point them at.
1-2 Retributors with heavy flamers in Repressor - They can deal with hordes and with terminators (turning them into 3+ saves). I have used this unit to great effect by moving them close to terminators, flaming the crap out of them, having the repressor charge them so they could not move and then fall back on my next turn only to have the retributors use their flamer again. Remember the unit falling back is the repressors and since the retributors arent on the table and instead using the firepoints rule, they can still shoot. My repressor was severaly damaged in the process but this unit managed to take down two deathwing squads using this tactic.
1-2 Retributors with heavy bolters. - I would recommend putting more models than the minimum squad requirements here. Once your opponent figures out how good they are at dealing with anything other than vehicules, they will become a higher priority target and will die quickly. I go for 10 models if I can, but if I need to save points, I will stay at 8.
Thing I will always use, but are up to personal preferences:
Canoness with Eviscerator - She is great in the back to buff up your Heavy Bolter retributors and if anything gets close enough to charge them, she is great in combat with her heroic intervention. Mine so far as managed to kill 3 Terminators as well as a Shard of the Deceiver and Skarbrand in close combat. The last two had been somewhat weakened by shooting first, but she easilly dispatched them once they got close.
Voldrak wrote: Things you want in every list so far from experience.
Celestine - I've found her to be very fragile this edition. Once she is focused on she goes down quickly. If you rush up her up too quickly and leave her support behind she will die. I use her to counter charge or hit weaker flanks, otherwise I keep her close to the dominions to use her act of faith on them.
This is one thing I couldn't disagree more on. Yes, Celestine isn't quite the tank she was in 7th edition, but she's also much harder to target. Furthermore, she can effectively move 24" per turn, allowing her to charge nearly anything on the board without an excessive amount of difficulty. Alternatively, you can get back d3 wounds if you don't need that extra movement.
(For context: I run her with a single geminae, to get maximum efficiency on regeneration.)
d3 wounds, plus a Geminae every turn, plus recovering 7 wounds the first time she dies, makes her really really difficult to take down - At the very minimum, Celestine and one Geminae will need to take 18 wounds through a 2+4++ before they die, and they can't be targeted unless they're the closest unit. She'll take 432 lasgun shots to kill. (Well, assuming a 4+ to hit that is.) She'll take 189 Boltgun shots to kill. (This time assuming a 3+ to hit.) She's certainly not impossible to kill, but she's still fairly beefy. She'll take 28 overchaged Plasma shots to kill.
All this assumes she only regenerates the Geminae once, and never gets a chance to use an Act of Faith to get back up.
This is pretty much why I said you need to keep Celestine behind her support.
Charge her forward where she can be counter charged or doesnt have another target between herself and the shooters and she will go down. Your opponent won't be sending lasguns at her, but lascannons. With proper use of command points she will take damage quickly.
I've had a Shard of the Deceiver reposition along with an Overlord with Scythe and charge her and she did not last in that combat. Skarbrand also made very short work of her since she couldnt falll back from him. She needs to be very careful with anything that has potential to do multiple d6dmg basically since she's a magnet for those attacks.
Voldrak wrote: This is pretty much why I said you need to keep Celestine behind her support.
Charge her forward where she can be counter charged or doesnt have another target between herself and the shooters and she will go down. Your opponent won't be sending lasguns at her, but lascannons. With proper use of command points she will take damage quickly.
I've had a Shard of the Deceiver reposition along with an Overlord with Scythe and charge her and she did not last in that combat. Skarbrand also made very short work of her since she couldnt falll back from him. She needs to be very careful with anything that has potential to do multiple d6dmg basically since she's a magnet for those attacks.
Lascannons are SUPER inefficient against Celestine. In order to kill her and one Geminae (Assuming each regenerate once) you need 18 Lascannon shots, and that's rounding the average damage per shot up from 3.5 to 4, to account for Command Points. (7 Lascannons to kill the Geminae twice, 11 to kill Celestine twice.)
Automatically Appended Next Post: (For the record: The best weapons for killing Celestine are going to be S6 and Ap-2. If the strength is higher or AP lower, then the weapon is spending extra points for something that it simply isn't going to use. If anything is lower, then Celestine is getting better durability against you. Repentia are pretty darned efficient at killing Celestine, if you've got a Mistress of Repentance and a Priest nearby - And they're S6, AP-2.)
Voldrak wrote: This is pretty much why I said you need to keep Celestine behind her support.
Charge her forward where she can be counter charged or doesnt have another target between herself and the shooters and she will go down. Your opponent won't be sending lasguns at her, but lascannons. With proper use of command points she will take damage quickly.
I've had a Shard of the Deceiver reposition along with an Overlord with Scythe and charge her and she did not last in that combat. Skarbrand also made very short work of her since she couldnt falll back from him. She needs to be very careful with anything that has potential to do multiple d6dmg basically since she's a magnet for those attacks.
Lascannons are SUPER inefficient against Celestine. In order to kill her and one Geminae (Assuming each regenerate once) you need 18 Lascannon shots, and that's rounding the average damage per shot up from 3.5 to 4, to account for Command Points. (7 Lascannons to kill the Geminae twice, 11 to kill Celestine twice.)
Automatically Appended Next Post: (For the record: The best weapons for killing Celestine are going to be S6 and Ap-2. If the strength is higher or AP lower, then the weapon is spending extra points for something that it simply isn't going to use. If anything is lower, then Celestine is getting better durability against you. Repentia are pretty darned efficient at killing Celestine, if you've got a Mistress of Repentance and a Priest nearby - And they're S6, AP-2.)
You kill the geminae with small arms then shoot lascannons. It's not like you're trying to kill her in a single unit's worth of shooting.
Voldrak wrote: This is pretty much why I said you need to keep Celestine behind her support.
Charge her forward where she can be counter charged or doesnt have another target between herself and the shooters and she will go down. Your opponent won't be sending lasguns at her, but lascannons. With proper use of command points she will take damage quickly.
I've had a Shard of the Deceiver reposition along with an Overlord with Scythe and charge her and she did not last in that combat. Skarbrand also made very short work of her since she couldnt falll back from him. She needs to be very careful with anything that has potential to do multiple d6dmg basically since she's a magnet for those attacks.
Lascannons are SUPER inefficient against Celestine. In order to kill her and one Geminae (Assuming each regenerate once) you need 18 Lascannon shots, and that's rounding the average damage per shot up from 3.5 to 4, to account for Command Points. (7 Lascannons to kill the Geminae twice, 11 to kill Celestine twice.)
Automatically Appended Next Post: (For the record: The best weapons for killing Celestine are going to be S6 and Ap-2. If the strength is higher or AP lower, then the weapon is spending extra points for something that it simply isn't going to use. If anything is lower, then Celestine is getting better durability against you. Repentia are pretty darned efficient at killing Celestine, if you've got a Mistress of Repentance and a Priest nearby - And they're S6, AP-2.)
You kill the geminae with small arms then shoot lascannons. It's not like you're trying to kill her in a single unit's worth of shooting.
Okay, so it takes 7 Plasma shots to kill the Geminae twice, and 11 Lascannons to kill Celestine twice. You're still looking at a vast amount of firepower needed to kill her, assuming you can get everything lined up and in range.
Just to get the Lascannons needed, that's going to cost 275 points for any Marine player. (And I'm assuming Marines because I'm assuming 3+ to hit.) Not 275 points total - Just 275 points for the weapons alone. Add in the cost of the people or tanks holding the weapons, and however you're going to get those 7 plasma shots (Though Plasma is cheap enough that it's pretty plausible) and you're looking at easily 500+ points of what-you-claim-to-be optimized firepower to kill a 200 points of models. (And you have to fire it all at once, because if you wait around and allow any turns to pass, Celestine will regenerate like Wolverine and increase the amount of firepower you need exponentially. And again, this also assumes that all of your weapons will be able to target her - A very unlikely prospect. (It also assumes that she doesn't kill you first or otherwise tie you up in close combat, which is very possible considering how incredibly fast she is.)
I'm not saying she's the most indestructible tank in the game, but she is really, really beefy nonetheless.
Waaaghpower wrote: Okay, so it takes 7 Plasma shots to kill the Geminae twice, and 11 Lascannons to kill Celestine twice. You're still looking at a vast amount of firepower needed to kill her, assuming you can get everything lined up and in range.
Just to get the Lascannons needed, that's going to cost 275 points for any Marine player. (And I'm assuming Marines because I'm assuming 3+ to hit.) Not 275 points total - Just 275 points for the weapons alone. Add in the cost of the people or tanks holding the weapons, and however you're going to get those 7 plasma shots (Though Plasma is cheap enough that it's pretty plausible) and you're looking at easily 500+ points of what-you-claim-to-be optimized firepower to kill a 200 points of models. (And you have to fire it all at once, because if you wait around and allow any turns to pass, Celestine will regenerate like Wolverine and increase the amount of firepower you need exponentially. And again, this also assumes that all of your weapons will be able to target her - A very unlikely prospect. (It also assumes that she doesn't kill you first or otherwise tie you up in close combat, which is very possible considering how incredibly fast she is.)
I'm not saying she's the most indestructible tank in the game, but she is really, really beefy nonetheless.
But 500+ points killing 200 isn't really that inefficient. Any unit that could make its points back in a single turn of shooting would be crazy OP, also I believe we were discussing this in the context of her getting overextended if you charged the enemy too early. In this case, him getting his firepower in position wouldn't be an issue. She's definitely tankier than the old version, but the one we had for a few months at the end of 7th way much less squishy than this one.
Waaaghpower wrote: Okay, so it takes 7 Plasma shots to kill the Geminae twice, and 11 Lascannons to kill Celestine twice. You're still looking at a vast amount of firepower needed to kill her, assuming you can get everything lined up and in range.
Just to get the Lascannons needed, that's going to cost 275 points for any Marine player. (And I'm assuming Marines because I'm assuming 3+ to hit.) Not 275 points total - Just 275 points for the weapons alone. Add in the cost of the people or tanks holding the weapons, and however you're going to get those 7 plasma shots (Though Plasma is cheap enough that it's pretty plausible) and you're looking at easily 500+ points of what-you-claim-to-be optimized firepower to kill a 200 points of models. (And you have to fire it all at once, because if you wait around and allow any turns to pass, Celestine will regenerate like Wolverine and increase the amount of firepower you need exponentially. And again, this also assumes that all of your weapons will be able to target her - A very unlikely prospect. (It also assumes that she doesn't kill you first or otherwise tie you up in close combat, which is very possible considering how incredibly fast she is.)
I'm not saying she's the most indestructible tank in the game, but she is really, really beefy nonetheless.
But 500+ points killing 200 isn't really that inefficient. Any unit that could make its points back in a single turn of shooting would be crazy OP, also I believe we were discussing this in the context of her getting overextended if you charged the enemy too early. In this case, him getting his firepower in position wouldn't be an issue. She's definitely tankier than the old version, but the one we had for a few months at the end of 7th way much less squishy than this one.
500+ points of dedicated, specialized firepower killing 200 points of an ideal target is absolutely inefficient in 8th edition, where the game is incredibly bloody and most games end in one or both players being obliterated. I'm going to use comparisons off the top of my head:
If you want to kill 250 points of Terminators (That is, 5 Terminators,) you need 14 overcharged Plasma Shots that hits on 3+. Even if we ignore the obvious choice, you can get 14 Plasma Shots in a Drop Pod for 250 points using plain ol' Company Veterans.
If you want to kill 200 points of Ork Boyz, (That is, 33 Ork Boyz,) you need 360 points of Dominions with Storm Bolters, 300pts if those Dominions use an Act of Faith to get bonus shots.
If you want to kill a 200 point Quad-Las Predator, you need 8 Lascannon shots which - For the sake of convenience, can come from two 200 point Quad-Las Predators. If you prefer a more efficient route, you can just take two squads of five Devestators with 4 Lascannons, which comes in at 165 points per squad - 330 points in total.
You notice something about all the options above? When taking a weapon that specializes in killing the target, you never need more than twice the cost of the target, and on average it breaks down to something between 150% and 175%.
For Celestine, you need 250%.
(I'm not comparing melee here, because Melee is almost universally more bloody, but also harder to accomplish and potentially costly since Celestine will get the chance to strike back.)
You can't assume a gemina needs to die twice, Celestine costs 200, and dies in one turn of shooting (pick any 2 of the previous assumptions).
Well, OK maybe we just haven't found the optimal units.
Hot shot las (FRFSRF): 4 * 2/3 * 1/2 * 1/2 = 2/3 wounds
I was about to do the math for plasma, but actually these work better somehow. You'd need 27 of these or 6 squads + 3 tempestor primes. That's 420 points. Plasma is slightly less efficient (and also you can't spam 6 command squads). Volley guns are 55% more efficient when not moving (2/3 to wound and reroll 1s to hit since they don't need FRF).
Actually, volley guns do 4 * 7/9 * 2/3 * 1/2 = 28/27s (about 1) damage each. So 8 of these, 10 hot shot las, and 2 TPs = about 15 damage for 324. (You can then easily do 1-3 more points for under 70).
Granted, volley guns won't be common. I don't think they have many other optimal targets.
Mavnas wrote: You can't assume a gemina needs to die twice, Celestine costs 200, and dies in one turn of shooting (pick any 2 of the previous assumptions).
Well, OK maybe we just haven't found the optimal units.
Hot shot las (FRFSRF): 4 * 2/3 * 1/2 * 1/2 = 2/3 wounds
I was about to do the math for plasma, but actually these work better somehow. You'd need 27 of these or 6 squads + 3 tempestor primes. That's 420 points. Plasma is slightly less efficient (and also you can't spam 6 command squads). Volley guns are 55% more efficient when not moving (2/3 to wound and reroll 1s to hit since they don't need FRF).
Actually, volley guns do 4 * 7/9 * 2/3 * 1/2 = 28/27s (about 1) damage each. So 8 of these, 10 hot shot las, and 2 TPs = about 15 damage for 324. (You can then easily do 1-3 more points for under 70).
Granted, volley guns won't be common. I don't think they have many other optimal targets.
Okay, well there you have it. Lascannons aren't the optimal weapon for killing Celestine, Hotshot Lasguns, Volley Guns, and Tempestor Primes are. That makes sense - AP -2 is the ideal AP for killing her, and you're not going overboard on Strength with by having S7+, so there's no points being wasted.
Still, that means that Celestine is about as tanky as any other unit against the optimal enemy - Around 150-175%. I started this whole argument against the idea that Celestine is very fragile in this edition - She's not. She's above-average tanky against nonoptimal weapons, and is about as durable as anything else against the ideal opponent.
(Also, fair point with the 'They can't die all in the same turn and also have the Geminae show up twice' thing. I was trying to flatten out the results since most players probably won't drop Celestine in a place where she can immediately be shot at again after she dies the first time, but didn't really make that clear, and it doesn't make for a perfect simulation of on-board reality. Honestly, since Celestine can pack up and move out to just about anywhere on the board after the first time she dies, she's probably far more durable than this math is letting her on to be - You can't ambush her from deep strike or surround her, she'll just vanish and reappear just outside of Rapid Fire range to troll you.)
Waaaghpower wrote: (Also, fair point with the 'They can't die all in the same turn and also have the Geminae show up twice' thing. I was trying to flatten out the results since most players probably won't drop Celestine in a place where she can immediately be shot at again after she dies the first time, but didn't really make that clear, and it doesn't make for a perfect simulation of on-board reality. Honestly, since Celestine can pack up and move out to just about anywhere on the board after the first time she dies, she's probably far more durable than this math is letting her on to be - You can't ambush her from deep strike or surround her, she'll just vanish and reappear just outside of Rapid Fire range to troll you.)
Actually, this brings up an important discussion. Since she gets back up immediately now, it seems like additional wounds on her at time of death wouldn't go away? (i.e. if she ate 4 lascannon shots and died on the 2nd, is there any rule allowing us to disregard 3 and 4?) I feel like there should be, but I really, really hate the fact that she gets back up immediately. I think we were mostly thinking Lascannons since they have so much range they can hit her most places where she could be placed and also still be useful next turn.
Melissia wrote: While it's true that in the lore, elements of the Imperial Guard is at least more likely to operate under the de facto command (if not de jure) of a Sisters of Battle commander than elements of the Adeptus Astartes, unless you're doing a themed list (say, Holy Crusade list as it were) I usually counsel not doing it. Actually, guard DO benefit from Ecclesiarchy character buffs...
And Celestine gives therm a 6+ (but not Shield of Faith) if they're within 6"
Waaaghpower wrote: (Also, fair point with the 'They can't die all in the same turn and also have the Geminae show up twice' thing. I was trying to flatten out the results since most players probably won't drop Celestine in a place where she can immediately be shot at again after she dies the first time, but didn't really make that clear, and it doesn't make for a perfect simulation of on-board reality. Honestly, since Celestine can pack up and move out to just about anywhere on the board after the first time she dies, she's probably far more durable than this math is letting her on to be - You can't ambush her from deep strike or surround her, she'll just vanish and reappear just outside of Rapid Fire range to troll you.)
Actually, this brings up an important discussion. Since she gets back up immediately now, it seems like additional wounds on her at time of death wouldn't go away? (i.e. if she ate 4 lascannon shots and died on the 2nd, is there any rule allowing us to disregard 3 and 4?) I feel like there should be, but I really, really hate the fact that she gets back up immediately. I think we were mostly thinking Lascannons since they have so much range they can hit her most places where she could be placed and also still be useful next turn.
If she is removed from play (ie: Dead) then any wounds went with her. All 4 shots resolved at the same time, it just happened to be (for the purposes of speedy gamer play) you marked her dead on #2 hit. She wouldn't rez in a millisecond and be standing in the same incoming lasfire for shots 3-4. If she's dead, her body guards are too most likely - so rez anywhere you like (9" rule applies).
Melissia wrote: While it's true that in the lore, elements of the Imperial Guard is at least more likely to operate under the de facto command (if not de jure) of a Sisters of Battle commander than elements of the Adeptus Astartes, unless you're doing a themed list (say, Holy Crusade list as it were) I usually counsel not doing it. Actually, guard DO benefit from Ecclesiarchy character buffs...
And Celestine gives therm a 6+ (but not Shield of Faith) if they're within 6"
True.
So I could definitely see a "Holy Crusade" list with guard, ecclesiarchy, and some sisters, both in rules and in fluff. That the Ecclesiarchy stuff specifically buffs guard encourages their use together. Priests give all Astra Militaritum units near them +1 attack (this, amusingly enough, includes Mlitaritium vehicles, because it says units, not infantry), and Jacobus (being an HQ-slot super-priest) has a 6" radius +1Ld buff alongside it.
Taikishi wrote: That means that, with a command point, Exorcists are only 30% less effective than Predators instead of 40%. It's an improvement, but still not enough to justify the fact they're only 20% cheaper than Predators.
Thing is, points value isn't just calculated on damage output - but resilience as well. The exorcist has T8 and 12 wounds, and a 6++. The predator has T7 and 11 wounds.
You may prefer to go for the lighter, shootier predator. Exorcists live a bit longer though.
Well, they last marginally longer at any rate. But not enough to make up the enormous difference in firepower compared to just taking meltadoms or rets with multimeltas in repressors.
That said, Sisters have always had superb infantry, however, and the usefulness of infantry in 8th has lead to Sisters having a much better performance thus far. IMO, your tanks choices for Sisters should be about supporting your already superb infantry rather than being taken for their own sake, which is why immolators and repressors are the top choices.
Taikishi wrote: That means that, with a command point, Exorcists are only 30% less effective than Predators instead of 40%. It's an improvement, but still not enough to justify the fact they're only 20% cheaper than Predators.
Thing is, points value isn't just calculated on damage output - but resilience as well. The exorcist has T8 and 12 wounds, and a 6++. The predator has T7 and 11 wounds.
You may prefer to go for the lighter, shootier predator. Exorcists live a bit longer though.
I thought I brought that up. I admit I could be wrong, but +1T, +1 wound, and a 6++ aren't enough to justify the points difference being what it is. I'd math it now but I don't have a lot of time atm; but I promise that if anyone wants me to math out the difference, I'll do it. Otherwise I'll just leave it be.
Melissia wrote: Well, they last marginally longer at any rate. But not enough to make up the enormous difference in firepower compared to just taking meltadoms or rets with multimeltas in repressors.
That said, Sisters have always had superb infantry, however, and the usefulness of infantry in 8th has lead to Sisters having a much better performance thus far. IMO, your tanks choices for Sisters should be about supporting your already superb infantry rather than being taken for their own sake, which is why immolators and repressors are the top choices.
We are far removed from the pre Imperial Agents 125 point Exorcist aren't we? I gave up on fielding Exorcists for AT about the time they started allowing double CAD's anyways. I agree that our best bet is in our infantry. Doms trucking in Repressors and small Seraphim squads with one Inferno girl cost as much as one with two of the now nerfed hand flamer girls.
Six of each and you still have points for a Canoness with some HB Rets, an Imagifer to go along with them and Celestine to lead from the front.
I am still trying to figure out how to fit BSS squads into a list and get some kind of return over the one extra point you put into Doms to get old style scout. I don't see any reason not to take Doms over BSS so far.
I think the way to run BSS is 2 per repressor with 3 specials each (3 SB or 2 melta +combi-melta). Their main benefit is you need troops to unlock more CP and single doms don't make use of all the fire points.
What Mavnas said. 2 BSS with 3SB in a single Repressor with extra SB upgrade is a 32 bolter shot 24" threat range monster. Charge the Repressor in afterwards for the 9 dozer blade attacks to literally sweep up whatever's left. It's seriously fun to throw down that amount of dice.
Doing it this way also has the benefit of reducing 3 units to a single deployment.
Plus 3 special weapons in a squad is the perfect loadout IMO. The Superior can throw a free krak grenade and then you've always got a standard red-shirt whose job is to always die first from that random explosion/mortal wound.
dracpanzer wrote: I am still trying to figure out how to fit BSS squads into a list and get some kind of return over the one extra point you put into Doms to get old style scout. I don't see any reason not to take Doms over BSS so far.
BSS get to be larger and have more boltguns. So you can benefit more from using acts of faith on them. However, this only works if you use them as groundpounders rather htan mechanized MSU squads. Otherwise, the repressor idea is the way to go.
So... 3 Canoness 6 of the BSS described above (3 Stormbolters) 3 Imagifier 3 5 melta Dominions 3 4 Heavy Bolter Retributors 3 Immolators (for Dominions) 3 Repressors (for 2x BSS squads) All fits within 2000 points, and gives over 100 points of tweeking. That's a Brigade, so a total of 12 Command Points.
Anpu-adom wrote: So...
3 Canoness
6 of the BSS described above (3 Stormbolters)
3 Imagifier
3 5 melta Dominions
3 4 Heavy Bolter Retributors
3 Immolators (for Dominions)
3 Repressors (for 2x BSS squads)
All fits within 2000 points, and gives over 100 points of tweeking. That's a Brigade, so a total of 12 Command Points.
I would put the Doms in the repressors rather than the Immos. The fire points are amazing for Doms.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, you might think about getting something for bubble wrap, whether it is a 15 sister squad or something else.
Anpu-adom wrote: So...
3 Canoness
6 of the BSS described above (3 Stormbolters)
3 Imagifier
3 5 melta Dominions
3 4 Heavy Bolter Retributors
3 Immolators (for Dominions)
3 Repressors (for 2x BSS squads)
All fits within 2000 points, and gives over 100 points of tweeking. That's a Brigade, so a total of 12 Command Points.
I would put the Doms in the repressors rather than the Immos. The fire points are amazing for Doms.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, you might think about getting something for bubble wrap, whether it is a 15 sister squad or something else.
All valid things, it is just a proof of concept. Unfortunately, Celestine and 2 Gemine aren't a simple swap for a canoness.
So for 2000 points, this is what I've been working with so far for Sisters. After a couple of games, I've really started to like the idea of leaning on Imagifiers to multiply my phases.
HQ Celestine
-2 Geminae
Troops
15 Battle Sisters
-12 bolters, 1 flamer, 1 heavy flamer, Condemnor boltgun for Superior
15 Battle Sisters
-12 bolters, 1 flamer, 1 heavy flamer, Condemnor boltgun for Superior
15 Battle Sisters
-12 bolters, 1 flamer, 1 heavy flamer, Condemnor boltgun for Superior
Elities
Imagifier
Imagifier
Imagifier
Fast Attack
5 Dominions
-4 meltas, Condemnor boltgun
-Immolator with Immolator cannon and HK missile
5 Dominions
-4 meltas
-Immolator with Immolator cannon and HK missile
5 Dominions
-4 meltas
-Immolator with Immolator cannon and HK missile
Heavy Support
Exorcist
-HK missile
Exorcist
-HK missile
Retributors
-4 heavy bolters, 6 bolters
This is 2000 points on the nose, which is my local meta's sweet spot.
pretre wrote: Yeah, I'd find a way to get her back in there. Right now, I don't feel like that has enough punch for 2000..
I'm in agreement with this. Sadly, Celestine is mandatory for any Sisters list that wants to be even remotely competitive. You really don't get any choice in this.
Melissia wrote: Well, they last marginally longer at any rate. But not enough to make up the enormous difference in firepower compared to just taking meltadoms or rets with multimeltas in repressors.
That said, Sisters have always had superb infantry, however, and the usefulness of infantry in 8th has lead to Sisters having a much better performance thus far. IMO, your tanks choices for Sisters should be about supporting your already superb infantry rather than being taken for their own sake, which is why immolators and repressors are the top choices.
If shot with BS3+ plasma guns on overcharge, it takes 14 shots to kill a predator while exorcists will need 21 shots. Difference between T7 and T8 is pretty noticeable.
Yes, plasmaguns aren't really very good anit-tank, but that's been well established for eight editions now. They're slightly better AT than they used to be, but if the enemy is using plasmaguns on your tanks instead of your transports or sisters, then that's their loss.
Actually, it takes 20 shots but still plasma guns are better for heavy infantry than tanks, even overcharged, unless you're in Rapid Fire range. And then you're increasing your odds of dying from 1/6 to about 5%.
Working on a spreadsheet for this now between work items. Going to do this on a per-weapon basis and then on the standard squad that can equip the weapons (plasma + combi-plasma in a Tactical squad, 4x weapon in a Devastator squad, 5 hellblasters in a Hellblaster squad, 1 Exorcist launcher, etc.) for a better comparison of a Predator vs an Exorcist.
Hint: Weapons that are good for anti-tank (melta, las, grav) are almost equally good against both while heavy armor weapons (plasma) aren't really that good against either.
Yep. Like I said, if the enemy is using plasmaguns as anti-tank, either you're already winning because your opponent is making bad choices or is locked out of making good ones, or you've already lost and he has nothing left to shoot at other than our relatively mediocre tanks.
Rubenite wrote: What Mavnas said. 2 BSS with 3SB in a single Repressor with extra SB upgrade is a 32 bolter shot 24" threat range monster. Charge the Repressor in afterwards for the 9 dozer blade attacks to literally sweep up whatever's left. It's seriously fun to throw down that amount of dice.
Doing it this way also has the benefit of reducing 3 units to a single deployment.
Plus 3 special weapons in a squad is the perfect loadout IMO. The Superior can throw a free krak grenade and then you've always got a standard red-shirt whose job is to always die first from that random explosion/mortal wound.
This sounds like a very good plan!
But why one Red shirt? surely 2 per Squad? (Superior with SB +2 SB and 2 without?)
I was wondering about opinions on how best to field a 2k take all comers list from my collection and any suggestion as to what to look at buying next. I normally run with a few 'reasonable' proxies so i'm comfortable with a couple of proxies here and there and that also gives me a few things to buy/convert on the road to WYSIWYG.
My current collection consists of:
New Celestine 1
Geminae 2
Old Celestine 1
Cannoness 3
Sister Superior 3
Battle Sister 16
Imagifier 1
Sister with Melta 12
Sister with Heavy bolter 2
Sister with Flamer 4
Sister with Heavy Flamer 4
Sister with Storm Bolter 1
Exorcist 3
Penitent engine 4
Immolator 4
Rhino 3
Seraphim 3
Seraphim with Hand Flamers 1
So, despite my dislike of a few key elements in 8E, a friend wants me to bring a 1000 point force to demo the game for another friend. He has four possible lists he may bring (Marines, GK, Orks or Ad Mech). Rather than meta any of them, I'm trying to come up with a TAC list and am curious what people think and what changes I could make:
Fast Attack
5x Dominions
-5 storm bolters, chainsword
5x Dominions
-5 melta guns, chainsword
Repressor w/ extra heavy flamer
(transports both Dominion squads)
5 Seraphim
-Power sword
Heavy Support
5x Retributors
-3 heavy flamers, chain sword
-Repressor with extra heavy flamer (transports Rets and flamer BSS)
Basic idea:
Foot slogging BSSs to use T1 AoF on and to provide a bit of a wrap for the Repressors as well as a T1 screen for Celestine if I don't go first.
Seraphim pop in on the most vulnerable target and to aid/screen Celestine.
Dominion Repressor Vanguards based on who is going first, my turn 1 dumps the storm bolter squad then goes hunting the biggest things it can find. Melta-minions only leave if Repressor becomes crippled or is destroyed.
Retributor/BSS Repressor becomes an Easy-Bake Oven, torching everything in its path. Just like the melta-Minions, these units only leave if they must.
Condemnors over SBs on the foot sloggers on the off chance he brings GKs.
Rubenite wrote: What Mavnas said. 2 BSS with 3SB in a single Repressor with extra SB upgrade is a 32 bolter shot 24" threat range monster. Charge the Repressor in afterwards for the 9 dozer blade attacks to literally sweep up whatever's left. It's seriously fun to throw down that amount of dice.
Doing it this way also has the benefit of reducing 3 units to a single deployment.
Plus 3 special weapons in a squad is the perfect loadout IMO. The Superior can throw a free krak grenade and then you've always got a standard red-shirt whose job is to always die first from that random explosion/mortal wound.
This sounds like a very good plan!
But why one Red shirt? surely 2 per Squad? (Superior with SB +2 SB and 2 without?)
Superior is throwing the grenade, though I agree -- if you're going storm bolters, it's better to give one to the superior and let a red shirt throw the grenade.
Drider wrote: I was wondering about opinions on how best to field a 2k take all comers list from my collection and any suggestion as to what to look at buying next. I normally run with a few 'reasonable' proxies so i'm comfortable with a couple of proxies here and there and that also gives me a few things to buy/convert on the road to WYSIWYG.
My current collection consists of:
New Celestine 1
Geminae 2
Old Celestine 1
Cannoness 3
Sister Superior 3
Battle Sister 16
Imagifier 1
Sister with Melta 12
Sister with Heavy bolter 2
Sister with Flamer 4
Sister with Heavy Flamer 4
Sister with Storm Bolter 1
Exorcist 3
Penitent engine 4
Immolator 4
Rhino 3
Seraphim 3
Seraphim with Hand Flamers 1
Trying to reach 2000 points with the above does not give significant options.
It looks like you'll be taking:
¤ Celestine + Geminae
¤ 3 Exorcists
¤ 2 Squads of Penitent Engines
¤ 1 Seraphim squad
¤ 2 Canoness
And then the rest of the sisters as BSS and Dominions mounted in Rhinos and Immolators.
Don't know if it'll reach 2000 in those numbers, but write something up and see where you get to
Rubenite wrote: What Mavnas said. 2 BSS with 3SB in a single Repressor with extra SB upgrade is a 32 bolter shot 24" threat range monster. Charge the Repressor in afterwards for the 9 dozer blade attacks to literally sweep up whatever's left. It's seriously fun to throw down that amount of dice.
Doing it this way also has the benefit of reducing 3 units to a single deployment.
Plus 3 special weapons in a squad is the perfect loadout IMO. The Superior can throw a free krak grenade and then you've always got a standard red-shirt whose job is to always die first from that random explosion/mortal wound.
This sounds like a very good plan!
But why one Red shirt? surely 2 per Squad? (Superior with SB +2 SB and 2 without?)
Superior is throwing the grenade, though I agree -- if you're going storm bolters, it's better to give one to the superior and let a red shirt throw the grenade.
That didn't solve the question lol
3 Special weapons out of 5 models is 2 "spare" models, not 1. This doesn't change if the superior throws a grenade or not..?
[EDIT] I think i'm miss-reading "always got a standard red-shirt" as "one out of a few", rather than "only 1".
Semantics, sorry
Drider wrote: I was wondering about opinions on how best to field a 2k take all comers list from my collection and any suggestion as to what to look at buying next. I normally run with a few 'reasonable' proxies so i'm comfortable with a couple of proxies here and there and that also gives me a few things to buy/convert on the road to WYSIWYG.
My current collection consists of:
New Celestine 1
Geminae 2
Old Celestine 1
Cannoness 3
Sister Superior 3
Battle Sister 16
Imagifier 1
Sister with Melta 12
Sister with Heavy bolter 2
Sister with Flamer 4
Sister with Heavy Flamer 4
Sister with Storm Bolter 1
Exorcist 3
Penitent engine 4
Immolator 4
Rhino 3
Seraphim 3
Seraphim with Hand Flamers 1
Trying to reach 2000 points with the above does not give significant options.
It looks like you'll be taking:
¤ Celestine + Geminae
¤ 3 Exorcists
¤ 2 Squads of Penitent Engines
¤ 1 Seraphim squad
¤ 2 Canoness
And then the rest of the sisters as BSS and Dominions mounted in Rhinos and Immolators.
Don't know if it'll reach 2000 in those numbers, but write something up and see where you get to
I would take Celestine and G, 3 Exos, 3 Doms, 2 Canoness with that list and work from there.
Fast Attack
5x Dominions
-5 storm bolters, chainsword
5x Dominions
-5 melta guns, chainsword
Repressor w/ extra heavy flamer
(transports both Dominion squads)
Dominion Repressor Vanguards based on who is going first, my turn 1 dumps the storm bolter squad then goes hunting the biggest things it can find. Melta-minions only leave if Repressor becomes crippled or is destroyed.
I freaking love this idea. Consider it stolen!
Adds another potential T2 AoF unit to the board in a key position for a mere 60pts. And disembarking T1 after the vanguard move is very reminiscent of Rhino Rush from the good old days. I absolutely love it!
Dominions are just so so so good! I'm highly tempted to skip the Battalion altogether. Now looking at 2x Outrider and 1 x Vanguard at 2k.
To clear up the red-shirt confusion from earlier, I was thinking about Dominions when I typed that. In a BSS its good that you have two standard sisters as red-shirt wounds. In a dominion squad it's nice to add an extra model if you can (6 fits in an immolator after all) just to take the first hit and save your expensive models.
Personnally I always skipped the battalion and always went outrider+vanguard(+other).
There is no point paying for BSS when you have a strictly superior squad for a mere +1 points per model. Many other units are in the same situation (tactical vs devastator, paladins vs GK termies, etc...).
Anyway, I love Taikishi's double trouble repressor idea too. I was using Tauroxes to bring the anti-horde dakka, but going I'll give it a try in my next games.
Much as I actually dislike the idea of doubling up on units in transports, if I were playing a larger game OR weren't using BSS to bubble wrap the tanks/get a T1 AoF, the flamer BSS would probably be another squad of 3 heavy flamer Rets. I'd probably also give both superiors combi-flamers so that if I do disembark the units, or the transport goes boom, the squads have a little more firepower individually.
I have played a few games with doubled-up transports and I think it's a reasonable tactic. Sure, there's risk, and I haven't played against a big anti-armor list that really has the potential to crack lots of vehicles. I've mostly sent matched BSS units with flamer loadouts to get into range. I find that even if the transports only survive until Turn 2, it's enough to do some very important range management moves with your specials and heavies. The Exorcists, HB Rets, Vanguard Doms, Seraphim, and Celestine give your opponent plenty to worry about in Turn 1, and in Turn 2, or Turn 3 if your opponent deployed deep in his own zone, you've got flamers and rapid-firing bolters on his doorstep.
I haven't explored these configurations as much, but I plan to experiment with double Retributer heavy flamer loadout, double Dominion to enjoy that extra Vanguard move (maybe with the melta/stormbolter loadout mentioned above), and maybe melta BSS backed by HF Rets... losing out on Vanguard in the process, but staggering some very potent weapons across the battlefield in optimal range.
I can't say I was a fan of doubled-up transports, but I might have to try it for the purposes of drop reduction. As is, my lists have more drops than I think they should at points cost.
Update of the list on the previous page thanks to ideas from B&C:
Detachment: Outrider + Auxiliary Fast Attack unit
CP: 3
HQ:
Celestine + 1 Geminae
Fast Attack:
5 Dominions
-4 melta-guns, combi-melta, chainsword
5 Dominions
-3 flamers, chainsword
4 squads of 5 Dominions
-4 Storm bolters, chainsword
5 Seraphim
-Power sword, plasma pistol
Heavy Support:
5 Retributors
-3 heavy flamers
2 Repressors with extra storm bolter
The Repressors lose some firepower, the deployments remain the same (1 Repressor of Flamer-Minions + HF Rets, 1 Repressor of Melta-Minions + SB-Minions). 3 Storm bolter Doms replace the 2 BSS squads as foot sloggers/quasi-blob that work to screen Celestine and wrap the tanks and to get a T1 AoF.
20 SB doms firing T1:
40 shots, or 80 in RF. Potential of 50/100 shots T1 with AoF once the Repressor-transported unit is deployed.
IMO, either bolter + storm bolter or bolter + combi-plasma shooting. If you want her to be some type of counter-charge unit, replace the combi-plasma/SB with an Eviscerator.
With Bolter/SB loadout you get up to six (6) Str 4 shots that hit 97% of the time each.
With the Bolter/Combi-plasma loadout you still get up to 6 shots, two of which are Str 7/8, but if you decide to supercharge the plasma barrel DO NOT fire the bolter-barrel of the combi-weapon. Why?
* A supercharged Plasma gun that hits on 2s, re-rolling 1s, has a 3% chance of killing your Canoness.
* If it's Rapid Firing, this goes up to almost 5.5%
* If you fire both barrels, you can't re-roll the 2s before they become 1s. This ups your chance of killing your Canoness to 22%, or 40% if Rapid Firing!!!
To clear up the red-shirt confusion from earlier, I was thinking about Dominions when I typed that. In a BSS its good that you have two standard sisters as red-shirt wounds. In a dominion squad it's nice to add an extra model if you can (6 fits in an immolator after all) just to take the first hit and save your expensive models.
Really good insight and makes a lot of sense actually. Thanks!
IMO, either bolter + storm bolter or bolter + combi-plasma shooting. If you want her to be some type of counter-charge unit, replace the combi-plasma/SB with an Eviscerator.
With Bolter/SB loadout you get up to six (6) Str 4 shots that hit 97% of the time each.
With the Bolter/Combi-plasma loadout you still get up to 6 shots, two of which are Str 7/8, but if you decide to supercharge the plasma barrel DO NOT fire the bolter-barrel of the combi-weapon. Why?
* A supercharged Plasma gun that hits on 2s, re-rolling 1s, has a 3% chance of killing your Canoness.
* If it's Rapid Firing, this goes up to almost 5.5%
* If you fire both barrels, you can't re-roll the 2s before they become 1s. This ups your chance of killing your Canoness to 22%, or 40% if Rapid Firing!!!
I really don't expect the double-gun build to remain legal (unless it was addressed in an FAQ?) in the long term, and the more I think about it I do think having her be choppy to punish the wise-guy who tries to sneak a unit into my backline to run amuck would probably be best.
IMO Plasma is almost a must-take for the Canoness, either in pistol form or Combi. BS2+ with rerolling 1s is the best plasma shooting in the game, I don't think you'll ever see a better utilisation of wargear points.
pretre wrote: I grabbed an eviscerator on mine, but a Combi is certainly not a bad buy.
Agreed.
I think an eviscerator is a good choice simply because I love the fact that she hits on a 2+ now. I wish Celestians could get power weapons for the same reason.
Hell, it'd be nice if celestians could get anti-charge power spears and storm shields or something to represent their bodyguard nature...
Howdy folks, made an account to specifically talk in this thread. New player, decided to play SoB as my first army.
I see that people are mentioning using wargear like combiplasma and plasma pistols for the Canoness, where do you all pick up the bits to put that on the model? I recently ordered a Canoness secondhand off ebay, and I've been puzzling on how to bash that kind of wargear together with the metal model.
Fafnir wrote: Celestians need to be completely retooled as close combat units. Their statline is all about it, it's absurd that they don't get the gear.
Eviscerators are solid, but they are a bit overcosted. No access to jump packs doesn't help matters either.
A thousand times this. Celestians have been made out to be close combat units without close combat weapons, and they've always suffered for it. Even back in third, when they were at their strongest, they were always sub-par due to lack of role-appropriate equipment.
IMO, either bolter + storm bolter or bolter + combi-plasma shooting. If you want her to be some type of counter-charge unit, replace the combi-plasma/SB with an Eviscerator.
With Bolter/SB loadout you get up to six (6) Str 4 shots that hit 97% of the time each.
With the Bolter/Combi-plasma loadout you still get up to 6 shots, two of which are Str 7/8, but if you decide to supercharge the plasma barrel DO NOT fire the bolter-barrel of the combi-weapon. Why?
* A supercharged Plasma gun that hits on 2s, re-rolling 1s, has a 3% chance of killing your Canoness.
* If it's Rapid Firing, this goes up to almost 5.5%
* If you fire both barrels, you can't re-roll the 2s before they become 1s. This ups your chance of killing your Canoness to 22%, or 40% if Rapid Firing!!!
I really don't expect the double-gun build to remain legal (unless it was addressed in an FAQ?) in the long term, and the more I think about it I do think having her be choppy to punish the wise-guy who tries to sneak a unit into my backline to run amuck would probably be best.
Any opinions on her pistol options?
Why? I mean, GW has already mentioned that models can fire every non-pistol it possesses OR every pistol it possesses OR throw one grenade in the shooting rules, the FAQ didn't touch it, and I'm sure once I go digging (epubs are on my thumb drive at work) I'll find other infantry models besides the Canoness that have or can take two non-pistol guns.
InTOMinable_Broman wrote: Howdy folks, made an account to specifically talk in this thread. New player, decided to play SoB as my first army.
I see that people are mentioning using wargear like combiplasma and plasma pistols for the Canoness, where do you all pick up the bits to put that on the model? I recently ordered a Canoness secondhand off ebay, and I've been puzzling on how to bash that kind of wargear together with the metal model.
Plasma pistol / Combi-plasma is going to be a lot of trading with Space Marine players. There are many combi-plasmas that you can chop up and add to a SOB model, same with Plasma Pistols. There is really not a lot in the SOB range that covers it.
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Taikishi wrote: Why? I mean, GW has already mentioned that models can fire every non-pistol it possesses OR every pistol it possesses OR throw one grenade in the shooting rules, the FAQ didn't touch it, and I'm sure once I go digging (epubs are on my thumb drive at work) I'll find other infantry models besides the Canoness that have or can take two non-pistol guns.
I was going to look specifically at infantry, so as to exclude things like Wraithlords and Tau battle suits, but yes, every character on a bike has their twin bolters on their bike + could have another ranged weapon. As well, the sergeant of a bike squad + the two special weapon models can fire their twin bolters and their special/combi-weapon in the same turn.
So can Company Veterans on Bike and up to three models in a normal Bike squad. Or are you saying Wolf Guard can get both the storm bolter and combi-weapon + their bike guns? If so, I'm not seeing it.
Taikishi wrote: So can Company Veterans on Bike and up to three models in a normal Bike squad. Or are you saying Wolf Guard can get both the storm bolter and combi-weapon + their bike guns? If so, I'm not seeing it.
Oh wait, I'm thinking of something else.
No, Wolf Guard on bikes can each take a Combi/Storm Bolter plus their Bike Guns plus Plasma Pistol/Melee Weapons/Stormshield.
I'm interested that people are backing away from the Brigade in favor of two or three smaller detachments (Vanguards, Spearheads, etc... I can't keep the names straight). I'm going to try to build a few lists in that direction before my next game. That said, here's what used to be (approximately) my 7th edition Castellans list making an attempt at an 8th edition Brigade detachment for 12 Command Points. I know the Scions will annoy the purists (I get it), but what I'm really interested in is how the Ministorum units work together and whether my intended synergies and my plans to deploy, advance, and engage are legit. This should be an all-comers list.
Spoiler:
Limitations: Building (for the moment) a Brigade; my group doesn't use Forge World; I only have one Immolator with Immolation Flamer; I don't have any more heavy bolters or storm bolters than what you see here. It's a little over 2000 points, so I'll have to back off on some of the vehicle storm bolters to make it in under the limit. All units are at minimum size unless indicated.
HQ: Celestine, 1 Gemina
HQ: Canoness
HQ: Tempestor Prime w/Rod
HQ: Tempestor Prime w/Rod
Heavy: Exorcist
Heavy: Retributers (7) w/ 4 Heavy Bolters
Heavy: Retributers w/ 4 Heavy Flamers
DT: Immo, Twin Heavy Bolter, SB
Here are the deployment and engagement schemes I'd like feedback on:
The Canoness castles up in the back with an Imagifier, the Exorcist, and the HB Retributers... I feel like this is tried-and-true.
The melta Doms in the ImmoFlamer do what they've always done: Vanguard, suicide rush, melt something shiny.
The melta Doms and flamer Doms double up in the Rhino and advance up the table with Vanguard (flamers to engage or secure an objective).
The HF Rets and F/HF/CF Battle Sisters in the HB Immos are the second wave. They could use an AoF to keep pace with the Doms and could take either the Priest or the second Imagifier in their extra seat if it looks like a strong position midfield will help control objectives or win close matchups.
The 10-strong storm bolter foot squad could also use the Priest, second Imagifier, and/or AoF to position themselves for objective control or area denial in the middle of the board, or they could screen the backfield heavies to deny the required 9" for Deep Strike.
Celestine, her one pal, and the Seraphim go character hunting or provide counter-charges for the units who advance quickly enough to get into CC.
The Scions drop on the flanks or wherever else there's room to gun down armor and heavy infantry (they are too cheap and plasma is too good... so much hurt for 60 points each!).
Anyone see major issues with AoE buffs, movement rates, weapon ranges, unit sizes, etc.? Thanks!
InTOMinable_Broman wrote: Howdy folks, made an account to specifically talk in this thread. New player, decided to play SoB as my first army.
I see that people are mentioning using wargear like combiplasma and plasma pistols for the Canoness, where do you all pick up the bits to put that on the model? I recently ordered a Canoness secondhand off ebay, and I've been puzzling on how to bash that kind of wargear together with the metal model.
You'll need to get your hands on a plastic bit to represent the part you're looking for. (In this case, a space marine combi-plasma or plasma pistol) and do some cutting to make it fit on the Cannoness' hand.
Easiest way to do that is snip off the gun from an existing hand in two parts: A vertical cut parallel to the knuckles to remove the barrel, and a horizontal cut above the top of her enclosed fist to remove the rest of the firing mechanism. Then make a similar cut to the plastic bolter (used to be easier when you just had to remove the handles, the attached hands are a little more tricky) and you're on your way. Try to smooth out the cuts on the hand to make sure they're flat (and retain that 90 degree angle) and attach with super glue, I don't think pinning would be neccesary in this case.
pretre wrote: If you're taking Tempestus primes anyways, you are better off dropping the brigade and getting Tempestus Command Squads.
Also, no bubble wrap?
You'd bring Conscripts, I assume? I'd have to delve into the box o' junk models... I bet I could scrounge up 20, maybe 30 with mixed weapons and armor for "counts-as" Conscripts. Take them in place of... the 10-strong storm bolter unit? I'm guessing they serve a similar role, screening my backfield heavies?
pretre wrote: If you're taking Tempestus primes anyways, you are better off dropping the brigade and getting Tempestus Command Squads.
Also, no bubble wrap?
You'd bring Conscripts, I assume? I'd have to delve into the box o' junk models... I bet I could scrounge up 20, maybe 30 with mixed weapons and armor for "counts-as" Conscripts. Take them in place of... the 10-strong storm bolter unit? I'm guessing they serve a similar role, screening my backfield heavies?
Wow, looks like I'm a little late to this party. All looks like good advice so far. I'm really liking our total toolset.
I did work up this in CAD over the past couple evenings as a printable Repressor conversion that works like the immolator's top plate, but fits the standard rhino cupolas.
Zefig wrote: Wow, looks like I'm a little late to this party. All looks like good advice so far. I'm really liking our total toolset.
I did work up this in CAD over the past couple evenings as a printable Repressor conversion that works like the immolator's top plate, but fits the standard rhino cupolas.
It's set by the seller, on top of the material price which is normally a little on the expensive side. That's a little off-topic though - pm me if you want to talk more about it.
I have a few really silly questions, I think, but I'm going to ask them anyway. I have an epub version of the Index 2, and while I have my initial heart set on Scions, I've been looking at adding some Sisters because they seem really pretty neat.
But...I don't quite like the models as they are currently, especially since they aren't plastic. I'm looking at doing some conversions using bits from other game systems, but is that usually frowned upon? There are some units I'd like to do a few different things with, particularly for tactics purposes, and I'm afraid that it not being exactly the metal model might cause issues.
Does the Order keyword matter? Are there any special Orders, or unique ones?
This Repressor...I see it isn't available on FW. Is that temporary? I'm really liking that idea of a rolling band of Storm Bolters. Has that been successful for anyone?
Extra Storm Bolters on vehicles are arguably a better upgrade than on a Sister. Consider that adding a storm bolter where there was previously none gains you +4 bolter shots within 12" and +2 within 13-24". Replacing a Sisters Boltgun with a Storm Bolter nets you only +2 bolter shots within 12" and +1 within 13-24" for the same amount of points. You also get quite a few inches extra circular range from the sheer size of the vehicle, better line of sight and if it loses a few wounds you don't start losing weapons.
However I am shying away from adding them to my Immolation Flamer Immolators as they'll be doing a lot of Advancing.
Zefig wrote: Wow, looks like I'm a little late to this party. All looks like good advice so far. I'm really liking our total toolset.
I did work up this in CAD over the past couple evenings as a printable Repressor conversion that works like the immolator's top plate, but fits the standard rhino cupolas.
The 3d printer I have access to is decidedly less than great, and can't do fine detail at all. I don't actually know if it's going to work; I haven't tried it yet. I did try to do an immolator upper plate before, and it didn't work in the slightest, so I might need to chop up the riot blade and run it off in pieces.
Zefig wrote: Wow, looks like I'm a little late to this party. All looks like good advice so far. I'm really liking our total toolset.
I did work up this in CAD over the past couple evenings as a printable Repressor conversion that works like the immolator's top plate, but fits the standard rhino cupolas.
That is impressive, and exactly what I was looking for. Please keep us posted on your progress, Zefig.
It was by utter serendipity that I decided to head into a GW shop the day after the new Indices and Rulebook came out.
I've had a Sisters army since they were Witch Hunters, and I am ecstatic that we're getting some spiffy new rules for the army. (I haven't played since 6th ed.)
I picked up Index: Imperium II because that's all I needed I think... and the Rulebook, of course.
I noticed that everyone here is talking about Repressors as an available transport for Battle Sisters, but I can't for the life of me find any mention of it in the Index. Can someone point me in the right direction? Maybe a page number, or if it's in another Index?
Melissia wrote: While it's true that in the lore, elements of the Imperial Guard is at least more likely to operate under the de facto command (if not de jure) of a Sisters of Battle commander than elements of the Adeptus Astartes, unless you're doing a themed list (say, Holy Crusade list as it were) I usually counsel not doing it. Actually, guard DO benefit from Ecclesiarchy character buffs...
And Celestine gives therm a 6+ (but not Shield of Faith) if they're within 6"
True.
So I could definitely see a "Holy Crusade" list with guard, ecclesiarchy, and some sisters, both in rules and in fluff. That the Ecclesiarchy stuff specifically buffs guard encourages their use together. Priests give all Astra Militaritum units near them +1 attack (this, amusingly enough, includes Mlitaritium vehicles, because it says units, not infantry), and Jacobus (being an HQ-slot super-priest) has a 6" radius +1Ld buff alongside it.
That sounds like a really fun idea.
If I was to build such a list using mostly IG (with just a small amount of SoB stuff at the core), could you give any recommendations? I'm especially curious regarding what IG stuff (or builds/wargear) you think would be most flavourful for this sort of list. Also, what SoB models/units would you recommend for a small command core to lead the army?
Melissia wrote: While it's true that in the lore, elements of the Imperial Guard is at least more likely to operate under the de facto command (if not de jure) of a Sisters of Battle commander than elements of the Adeptus Astartes, unless you're doing a themed list (say, Holy Crusade list as it were) I usually counsel not doing it. Actually, guard DO benefit from Ecclesiarchy character buffs...
And Celestine gives therm a 6+ (but not Shield of Faith) if they're within 6"
True.
So I could definitely see a "Holy Crusade" list with guard, ecclesiarchy, and some sisters, both in rules and in fluff. That the Ecclesiarchy stuff specifically buffs guard encourages their use together. Priests give all Astra Militaritum units near them +1 attack (this, amusingly enough, includes Mlitaritium vehicles, because it says units, not infantry), and Jacobus (being an HQ-slot super-priest) has a 6" radius +1Ld buff alongside it.
That sounds like a really fun idea.
If I was to build such a list using mostly IG (with just a small amount of SoB stuff at the core), could you give any recommendations? I'm especially curious regarding what IG stuff (or builds/wargear) you think would be most flavourful for this sort of list. Also, what SoB models/units would you recommend for a small command core to lead the army?
I'm personally a huge fan of Scions. Aesthetically, their armour has a medieval crusader look to it and I believe fits more with your theme of a Holy Crusade than the stock Cadian grunt would. They also gain access to an exceptional transport in the Taurox Prime that brings some ridiculous firepower for its price, but it can only hold Scions and it removes some of the benefit of their deep strike deployment option. Alternatively, you could stick them into some Valks and drop them during movement, and since they're disembarking you can move afterwards, giving you an option for quick strike meltas or double tap with hot shot las. Scions also give you access to an awful lot of plasma and fits into a more fast striking style, which would complement heavy use of Dominions in Repressors, for example.
If you're looking for a more traditional IG foot sloggers army supported by tanks and artillery, then Scions wouldn't be a great fit and you might want to look at some conscripts buffed by Priests and the like.
Scions were going to be my initial jumping on point into 40k again (I'm saving for my wedding and honeymoon currently, so I'm just heavily lurking these days), but SoB caught my attention recently as well. I really like your idea of a joint force for fluff and gameplay reasons, so I'm going to commit to the Scion + SoB route as soon as financially possible.
Now I just need to figure out how to make a solid stormbolter conversion and get my hands on some way to make custom Repressors...
If Celestians' bodyguard rule didn't apply only to <Order> units, I'd suggest using them, but sadly they do. If only Sisters had HQ units taht both needed the protection and were worth the extra points. But we don't.
I'm personally a huge fan of Scions. Aesthetically, their armour has a medieval crusader look to it and I believe fits more with your theme of a Holy Crusade than the stock Cadian grunt would. They also gain access to an exceptional transport in the Taurox Prime that brings some ridiculous firepower for its price, but it can only hold Scions and it removes some of the benefit of their deep strike deployment option. Alternatively, you could stick them into some Valks and drop them during movement, and since they're disembarking you can move afterwards, giving you an option for quick strike meltas or double tap with hot shot las. Scions also give you access to an awful lot of plasma and fits into a more fast striking style, which would complement heavy use of Dominions in Repressors, for example.
I have to say, I wasn't expecting Scions to come up in a 'holy crusade' list. I can see what you mean about their armour looking the part though.
If you're looking for a more traditional IG foot sloggers army supported by tanks and artillery, then Scions wouldn't be a great fit and you might want to look at some conscripts buffed by Priests and the like.
Well, I'm happy to skip the tanks and artillery and just use more footsoldiers.
I might perhaps go with Infantry Squads instead of Conscripts.
In terms of special weapons, would a mix of flamers and meltas be the most flavourful do you think? Perhaps with some Heavy Bolters?
Also, if I include St. Celestine and some Priests, is there anything else I should consider including from SoB to form the core of my army?
Scions were going to be my initial jumping on point into 40k again (I'm saving for my wedding and honeymoon currently, so I'm just heavily lurking these days), but SoB caught my attention recently as well. I really like your idea of a joint force for fluff and gameplay reasons, so I'm going to commit to the Scion + SoB route as soon as financially possible.
Scions are really good at the moment. Their ability to deep strike in with plasmaguns is devastating - especially when you have a MT Command Squad with 4 plasmaguns and a Prime to let them reroll 1s.
Melissia wrote: If Celestians' bodyguard rule didn't apply only to <Order> units, I'd suggest using them, but sadly they do. If only Sisters had HQ units taht both needed the protection and were worth the extra points. But we don't.
Another thing that really bothers me is that Celestine doesn't actually count as being part of the Order of Our Martyred Lady.
I had hoped that, since Genevieve and Eleanore had them, they would get them this edition, but I guess not. Right now, she's basically just deadweight in the army.
The problem is, that assumes that there's enough units hanging around them to benefit from the re-roll 1's to be worth 45 points. I would pay 45 points to get to re-roll 1's to hit on 6 Dominions squads, and their tanks, but 45 points to make a single Exorcist or a squad of Rets re-roll their 1's to hits isn't really value.
And, if course, if I pack in all my rearguard units around the Canoness, they're not taking up my deployment zone and aren't protecting my rear from outflankers and deepstrikers.
The problem is that, while the Canoness is an okay facebeater (eviscerator) or gun platform (bolter+combi weapon/stormbolter), she still has a hard time fitting into a force.
The combat canoness has has some pretty horrid mobility, thanks to lacking a jump pack, and no vanguard movement means that she's unable to join Dominions in a line-breaking transport either. And that's a shame, since she'd be fantastic in that role.
A shooting Canoness isn't a terrible investment, but at that point it becomes purely a numbers game of point efficiency for firepower, one that isn't necessarily going to end up in the Canoness' favour.
If it were just this, the Canoness could get away with being mediocre but passable in her role. But then there's also the issue of Celestine. The Canoness is a complete and utter joke in comparison. Even when you discount the raw combat potential that Celestine offers, the army support she brings with her auras and act of faith is just enormous. And with Celestine actually having good mobility, she can actually get to where she needs to be to offer that support, while the Canoness is doomed to spend most games ground-pounding her way through no-man's land.
It also doesn't make sense that Celestine gives Faith, when she's summoned by faith in the first place.
I wouldn't mind if the the Canoness was retooled to be a bit more expensive while having a more competent and varied toolkit. She should be good enough that I can take her instead of Celestine without feeling guilty, and in addition to Celestine without feeling like she only is worth taking because Celestine can't be taken in multiple.
Eviscerators definitely need to go down in price, and stormshields and jump packs need to be an option. Canonesses not taking jump packs should have the vanguard movement, so that they can join up freely with Dominions.
And yes, Celestians need a close combat armoury, and have needed one since the very beginning.
To be fair, the Jump Pack was a bit of an aberration for our armies. IIRC, wasn't it only available with the C:WH version? I don't anticipate seeing it back anytime soon.
I think wishing for new stuff isn't going to get us anywhere. We need to work with what we have.
The thing is that the Geminae Superia both were canonesses, and both have jump packs. So GW seems to be aware of and fine with the precedent. It's one big wagging middle finger.
The only reason that they don't get rules for it is because of GW's 'no model, no rules' obsession. It's for that same reason that Sisters aren't likely to see any of the big changes that they need in upcoming updates, since a lot of their limitations come from their restricted range.
I've been running two Canoness and Celestine to unlock a Battalion and a Spearhead and they've been a decent investment. One takes a power mail and hangs out with the Retributors and a pair of Exorcists to give rerolls. In one game she came in handy against some deep strikers but her real purpose is to give me an extra CP for cheap. The other Canoness takes a Combi Melta and an Eviscerator, stands next to priest, and rides up to battle in a Rhino surrounded by other BSS squads. Twice now she has saved the day, hacking and shooting her way through orks, Khorne Berserkers, and Kharne. She's no Celestine, but for less than 100 points she is a scrappy little lady who is not easy to kill and can put some hurt down. Against MEQ or TEQ she will almost certainly earn her points back in a short time, she's not efficient against hordes but that's what the Immolators are there for.
Also my new favorite unit is 8 Seraphim with 4 inferno pistols. With double movement they are an absolute murder squad. They need Faith to get the job done, but I'm finding them to be more useful and way cheaper than Dominions.
IandI wrote: Also my new favorite unit is 8 Seraphim with 4 inferno pistols. With double movement they are an absolute murder squad. They need Faith to get the job done, but I'm finding them to be more useful and way cheaper than Dominions.
I agree they're fantastic.
Before I was playing a firing base of 2 exorcist, one canoness and one HB ret squad to use the base AoF on them. But since I swapped that firebase for a more efficient AM version of it, I had nobody to use the base AoF anymore (my army is fully meched). So I ended up trying a squad of 9 seraphims with 4 inferno pistols to use that otherwise lost AoF, and my oh my how good they are.
The fact they fly allows to pull off some interesting tricks like going over the frontline to snipe a ill-protected character. Or rush a vehicle, charge him and surround him so he can't fall back, can't shoot and the seraphims are safe from shooting attacks, then meltapistol his face once or twice the next turn. They hide easily but can pounce on about anything.
Jumping from cover to cover they're actually resilient enough to keep the inferno pistols alive long enough.
Today I got beaten by a necron player using a Doomsday Ark and a C'tan. I could kill the C'tan with Celestine, but the Doomsday destroyed one of my Immolators on turn 1 and then I got a 6 on explosion.... about 20 sisters died.
Anyway, any unit good against this machine and tyranid monsters like exocrine? Dominions with melta spam maybe? Thanks! Any tactic against necrons is welcome.
Anyway, any unit good against this machine and tyranid monsters like exocrine? Dominions with melta spam maybe? Thanks! Any tactic against necrons is welcome.
Melta spam can work, but you're going to need a lot of it. 5 Melta guns (no canoness rerolls) into an Exocrine is going to do about 5 wounds per squad, about 7.5 if they're within 6".
My most point-effective solution so far has been to just send a Culexus into close combat with it. Sure, the Culexus isn't going to touch it, but the Exocrine isn't going to be touching it either, and costs quite a bit more. If he doesn't bring in something else to stop you from keeping it stuck in combat, then you can keep it locked down for the entire game. If he does bring in something so that the Exocrine can get free, then you've diverted more of your opponents resources while still wasting at least one of his turns while you can set up another melta volley.
Alternatively, Manticores don't give a crap about that T8.
Sadly, Sisters don't really have much within their own faction that will handily deal with T8+.
It is tough to say no to AM fire support when 3 lascannons cost like 74 points, but I will remain pure with my ladies...
I haven't used my Seraphim to assassinate a character yet but it's something I thought about. I did use Dominions in a similar role in my last game. I sent 2 squads with 10 meltaguns in against a Rhino full of berserkers that we're screening a demon prince. The first squads nuked the Rhino, and my opponent deployed them out the back of the wreck to avoid the other 5 meltas, inadvertently leaving the prince as the closest target to the second squad. Demon Princes of Khorne are tough, but they aren't 5 meltaguns at less than 6" tough.
The moral of the story is be super careful with deployment in 8th edition. In 7th, 5 meltas would've knocked off 2 or 3 wounds from the prince, but in 8th they put enough wounds down to kill him twice. Stuff dies fast in 8th edition, I haven't had a single game yet that wasn't decided by turn 3, and they've all been bloody blowouts. Vehicles are tough, but so far it seems nothing else really is. Multishot weapons with AP -1 tear through infantry and things that would be survivable in 7th are total killshots in 8th. That's why I haven't given up on Exorcists, anything they hit and wound will take damage because AP -4 means cover won't save you 50% of the time like it used to. They aren't all that great against vehicles unless you double up on them, but they wreck nice expensive things like devastators, Terminators, lootas, or AM heavy weapons teams. Pinging 2-5 wounds off a Razorback is ok, but wiping out a few lascannon devestators with the same shot really adds up fast.
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jy2 wrote: How is Immo-spam in this edition? Worth playing?
They're too expensive points wise to spam but they are solid. Well, the Immolation Flamer version that is. The other two versions are outclassed by Retributors for heavy bolters, and Dominions and Seraphim for meltas. The MM version is too pricey, and inaccurate on the move which it will be doing constantly. The flamer version is a monster though, I run 3 and a Rhino and they don't go down easy while stacking wounds on guys. The best part is damage only slows them down, it doesn't affect their shooting at all...
ncshooter426 wrote: Whats the verdict on doms w/ flamers in represors? I really have the urge to burninate all the things
They're amazing. Probably the definitive horde-buster I have seen so far. My wife brings two to every full-size game we play, and my Stealers, etc... live in fear of them.
I thought the consensus was that, this edition, Storm Bolters were better than Flamers?
dracpanzer wrote: Still thinking I might bring one twin inferno pistol seraphim in a squad of five girls. Still cheap enough and just a bit of melta fun along for the ride.
Problem with storm bolter Doms is that I dont have enough of the models, flamers, melta, and bolters I have a ton of...
That's just a matter of money.
GW WAREHOUSE MONKEY: "Man, we're up to our eyeballs in Sisters with Stormbolters. We got nowhere to PUT them all."
40K LINE MANAGER: "No problem. We'll fix that in the next edition."
pretre wrote: I've always said that if I was going to start sisters now that I would buy sisters of silence and use third party sisters heads to swap the heads out. That plus bits buying Meltas and heavy weapons should get you what you need.
As for repressors? They are cheaper than Immos and have fire points. What's not to like?
Would that work, since Sisters of Silence is an actual GW model?
I have been seriously considering buying regular Space Marines and just painting them pink.
Voldrak wrote: Looking forward to a 2500 points game now. That used to be my prefered point level in 7th.
Attempting to do a brigade and fit as many immolators since you can get one for every other choices selected in the army.
Came up with this list where everything is barebone.
Canoness x 3
Battle Sisters x 6
Dialogus x 3
Dominions x 3
Retributors x 3
Immolators x 17
Not sure how competitve it would be, but I sure am looking forward to seeing my opponent's face once you drop 17 Immolators on the table.
Two things:
First, how are you arming the BSS, Dominos & Rets?
Second, I'm fairly sure that army would cost more than I paid for my car.
There is no special gear on anything. This is to fit within a 2500 points game. The sisters are basically there to hold objectives when required. The damage output mostly comes from 34d6, highly mobile, immolation flamer hits per turn.
pretre wrote: I've always said that if I was going to start sisters now that I would buy sisters of silence and use third party sisters heads to swap the heads out. That plus bits buying Meltas and heavy weapons should get you what you need.
As for repressors? They are cheaper than Immos and have fire points. What's not to like?
Would that work, since Sisters of Silence is an actual GW model?
I have been seriously considering buying regular Space Marines and just painting them pink.
Absolutely. As long as you modify them appropriately, you should be fine. Also, don't just paint SM pink.
"I should have taken a photo of the Tyranid game... I killed nearly 40 genestealers (my opponent brought 3 units of 16 for a Battalion) in Turn 1 after they obligingly closed the range for me."
Oh man, that's the kind of game I dream of.
He did it to himself, though. You're suppose to sent a wave of Gargolys in first, with the Genestealers behind a unit of 'Gaunts. And the TMCs behind the Genestealers.
Some other list at 2500 that is a little more realistic. Still using a Brigade
Canoness x 2
Celestine + 1 Geminae
BSS x 6 - Flamer, Heavy Flamer
Imagifiers x 3
Dominions x 3 - 4 meltaguns
Retributors x 3 - 4 heavy bolters
Immolators x 10
That is still 26d6 heavy flamers and 6d6 flamer hits. You also gain 12 heavy bolters and 12 meltaguns. More faith possibility if you move the imagifiers with the sisters in their immolators. Once you get everything out, it could get nasty.
I don't know. 2500 is a weird points value and it is hard to conceive of whether that is anywhere near enough firepower to handle things at 2500. I mean, the flamers are nice, but how're you going to handle 5+ knights?
I'm not seeing a lot of reason to take Sisters that aren't Dominions or Seraphim.
Rets can Run-n-Gun, hip-firing Heavy Bolters. Sure, they only hit on a 4+ if you move, but with a Cannoness letting you re-roll 1s that is a LOT of dakka. Even MEQs will have to beware that, and other infantry will die like flies.
I am not too concerned with 5 knights to be honest.
They may seem scary with 24 wounds, but it's still only 5 targets to your many more targets. You have board control over them and you don't need to kill them right away. You only need to get them under 12 wounds to start crippling them. They would be on 4+ or 5++ saves against the majority of your weapons and you wound on 4s or 5s mainly. It seems daunting, but I've played against double knights at 2000 and found them to be underwhelming. I don't think 5 would be bad. They would damage you for sure, but then again, you have to expect things to die in this edition. They will die just as easilly however.
I have been seriously considering buying regular Space Marines and just painting them pink.
...
don't just paint SM pink.
Listen to Pretre.
The classic RT sister of battle is a black space marine with a nun's habit, a gas mask, and spikey nipples.
If someone gets annoyed and demands you explain it fluffy, double down and say they're repurposing the armour of all those space marines that got replaced with primaris marines.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Anyway, for that canoness I decided to go just with the eviscerator, and worked the book hand a bit to make her hold it in the left hand (which in turn is now attached to a bionic left arm.) that way I can run her with whichever (holstered) pistol I want.
As for the paint scheme, I'm opting for a bloody rose scheme using the red gem paints to get that polished car red you've seen with the thousand sons. Any thoughts on what I should do with her cloak?
At first I was thinking a crushed velvet but now I'm considering black with gold embroidery.
Melissia wrote: Well, they last marginally longer at any rate. But not enough to make up the enormous difference in firepower compared to just taking meltadoms or rets with multimeltas in repressors.
That said, Sisters have always had superb infantry, however, and the usefulness of infantry in 8th has lead to Sisters having a much better performance thus far. IMO, your tanks choices for Sisters should be about supporting your already superb infantry rather than being taken for their own sake, which is why immolators and repressors are the top choices.
That brings up a good point:
I'm considering a foot slogging Sisters list. Lots of big squads. Big C & Doms with SBs as a first wave, allowing BSSs with Meltas & Combi-Melta to get close. Rets with HBs and Cannoness support to pump out the dakka, As many Imagifiers as I can fit in for AoF spam. And Seraphim with Inferno Pistols as Deep Striking flankers.
Bring a second canoness and some dialogous to buff your footslogger line and you should be golden. Dialogous remember let you reroll morale for units within 6", and canoness has an even bigger effect the bigger the squads she's buffing are. Similarly, your biggest squad is one of your primary targets for getting a second shooting phase, if you're trying to wipe out infantry.
Melissia wrote: Sad thing is, I'm pretty sure this was actually an unintended result.
I agree. I don't think that the design team intentionally buffs/nerfs units for sales reasons.
You're funny. You should do stand-up.
Automatically Appended Next Post: " Also, don't just paint SM pink."
Really? I was thinking of painting the legs, shoulder pads & backpack pink, and the head, chest & arms white. Sort of a Hello Kitty look. Then run them with Sisters rules. I totally WANT to do this. LOL.
Thing is, I just pulled out of my attic a box of Sisters I had left over from before I rage-quit 40k back in 4th ed. They were the only models I kept because I spend so much time painting them.
So now I guess I'm stuck looking to buy leftover Sisters models at my various FLAGS.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pretre wrote: I don't know. 2500 is a weird points value and it is hard to conceive of whether that is anywhere near enough firepower to handle things at 2500. I mean, the flamers are nice, but how're you going to handle 5+ knights?
The only way I can participate in 40k and not utterly lose my mind is to simply accept that there is no semblance of balance between the armies. None. At all. Therefore, collect an army that you like the look of, and field the most cheesy, over-the-top, one-trick-pony army you can possibly build. Then you know going in that every game you play will be an absolute, one-sided blow-out. With you losing roughly 2/3 of your games.
Captain Joystick wrote: As for the paint scheme, I'm opting for a bloody rose scheme using the red gem paints to get that polished car red you've seen with the thousand sons. Any thoughts on what I should do with her cloak?
At first I was thinking a crushed velvet but now I'm considering black with gold embroidery.
I'm considering a foot slogging Sisters list. Lots of big squads. Big C & Doms with SBs as a first wave, allowing BSSs with Meltas & Combi-Melta to get close. Rets with HBs and Cannoness support to pump out the dakka, As many Imagifiers as I can fit in for AoF spam. And Seraphim with Inferno Pistols as Deep Striking flankers.
Any thoughts on how a list like this might fair?
I think we work best as a mixed mech force, but I think foot slog can work just because of how cheap our models are.
Melissia wrote: Sad thing is, I'm pretty sure this was actually an unintended result.
I agree. I don't think that the design team intentionally buffs/nerfs units for sales reasons.
You're funny. You should do stand-up.
There are many examples over time that show that they don't do that. New releases with shiny new, expensive models that have crap rules. There are also old, cruddy kits that are plastic that have great rules. Basically, there is no solid proof that they do this.
Really? I was thinking of painting the legs, shoulder pads & backpack pink, and the head, chest & arms white. Sort of a Hello Kitty look. Then run them with Sisters rules. I totally WANT to do this. LOL.
Please, don't.
The only way I can participate in 40k and not utterly lose my mind is to simply accept that there is no semblance of balance between the armies. None. At all. Therefore, collect an army that you like the look of, and field the most cheesy, over-the-top, one-trick-pony army you can possibly build. Then you know going in that every game you play will be an absolute, one-sided blow-out. With you losing roughly 2/3 of your games.
But your wins will be truly glorious.
I've played for a long time (19 years or so) and the great quantity of my first years were losses. That being said, I win more than I lose nowadays with pretty much all my armies. It doesn't have a lot to do with balance, but does have a lot to do with how I pick my lists and play my games.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote: Bring a second canoness and some dialogous to buff your footslogger line and you should be golden. Dialogous remember let you reroll morale for units within 6", and canoness has an even bigger effect the bigger the squads she's buffing are. Similarly, your biggest squad is one of your primary targets for getting a second shooting phase, if you're trying to wipe out infantry.
I don't know that morale is a big enough deal to waste points on a dialogous.
dracpanzer wrote: Still thinking I might bring one twin inferno pistol seraphim in a squad of five girls. Still cheap enough and just a bit of melta fun along for the ride.
Problem with storm bolter Doms is that I dont have enough of the models, flamers, melta, and bolters I have a ton of...
That's just a matter of money?
Yeah, I bit the bullet and bought up 36 stormbolter girls. Half have already arrived and the rest will be here this week. I've been proxying my bolter girls as stormbolters so far. SB Doms in Repressors are brutal. I had been putting a combi-melta in each squad, but will probably be rolling all 6 SB squads with additional Melta Dom squad doubled up with them as a nasty little surprise.
The Vanguard move is great, but if I don't get first turn, it allows for repositioning but I dont like running them forward into close range just to be targets. I deploy hoping to sieze in that situation, but will vanguard to duck for cover or flank denial if I don't get it.
Since a foot slogger was brought up, this is a list I spit balled together earlier today based on someone else's idea of 100+ Battle Sisters, Imagifiers and Dialogus. And, no, I don't think the Dialogus does enough to warrant its points but, again, this is someone else's idea made real.
Comes out to exactly 2000 points.
HQ Canoness w/ Power axe & BP Canoness w/ Eviscerator & BP Celestine w/ 2 Geminae
Troops
15 Battle Sisters w/ 3 Storm Bolters
15 Battle Sisters w/ 3 Storm Bolters
15 Battle Sisters w/ 3 Storm Bolters
15 Battle Sisters w/ 3 Storm Bolters
15 Battle Sisters w/ 3 Storm Bolters
Elites
Dialogus
Dialogus
Imagifier
Imagifier
Imagifier
Fast Attack
5 Dominions w/ 4 Meltaguns, 1 Combi-plasma
5 Dominions w/ 4 Meltaguns, 1 Combi-plasma
5 Seraphim w/ 4 Inferno Pistols, Power sword
Heavy Support
5 Retributors w/ 3 Heavy Bolters
5 Retributors w/ 3 Heavy Bolters
5 Retributors w/ 3 Heavy Bolters
Dedicated Transport
Sororitas Repressor
Sororitas Repressor
Doubt this is very good, but I'm sure it'll look impressive on the table!
Edit: Just noticed that Battle Scribe didn't flag this as a Troops choice short of being a Brigade so points would have to be shuffled somehow to get another BSS.
Yeah, I bit the bullet and bought up 36 stormbolter girls. Half have already arrived and the rest will be here this week. I've been proxying my bolter girls as stormbolters so far. SB Doms in Repressors are brutal. I had been putting a combi-melta in each squad, but will probably be rolling all 6 SB squads with additional Melta Dom squad doubled up with them as a nasty little surprise.
The Vanguard move is great, but if I don't get first turn, it allows for repositioning but I dont like running them forward into close range just to be targets. I deploy hoping to sieze in that situation, but will vanguard to duck for cover or flank denial if I don't get it.
Repressor/Dominion double-trouble is definitely where it's at. So great dropping off the SB squad after the vanguard move for some T1 control of mid-board objectives and a very respectable amount of supporting dakka, while the Repressor continues onwards with the Meltas still inside.
pretre wrote: Damn! Did you buy them from GW Retail?
Thankfully no, I know quite a few in state players that had armies from way back and a lot of their stormbolters girls were just laying in bins. Probably could of had a lot of them for free, basically had to force them to take some cash. They will be taking simple green baths for a bit.
Captain Joystick wrote: I dunno, if any unit in the SoB arsenal can benefit from the dialogus it's the 20-strong sister squad that just got focussed.
Also, isn't she cheaper than some wargear?
She's 15 points / 1PL. That's basically the same price as three Book of St. Lucius from 3rd edition, and since she can probably cover three squads with her aura if you do it right, that's about right.
Someone already did earlier in this thread, actually. A bit too lazy to look for it atm tho.
As for the other questions...
Flamer does d6 auto-hits. Not auto-wounds. You roll d6 to calculate number of automatic hits, then calculate to-wound as normal, then armor saves as normal for each wound that caused damage.
Meltagun rolls to-hit as normal, then to-wound as normal, then if it successfully wounds, it does 1d6 damage, or 2d6 take the highest if at half range.
Melissia wrote: Someone already did earlier in this thread, actually. A bit too lazy to look for it atm tho.
As for the other questions...
Flamer does d6 auto-hits. Not auto-wounds. You roll d6 to calculate number of automatic hits, then calculate to-wound as normal, then armor saves as normal for each wound that caused damage.
Meltagun rolls to-hit as normal, then to-wound as normal, then if it successfully wounds, it does 1d6 damage, or 2d6 take the highest if at half range.
Thanks Mel. For the Melta, if 1 Wound MEQ gets hit then I don't really need to roll the D6. But if it were a Character with more than one wound then I would, right?
Iron Hands, Spearhead Detach
Company Captain
Land Raider
Land Raider
Land Raider Crusader
Razorback, Twin Lascannons
Razorback, Twin Assault Cannons
Razorback, Twin Assault Cannons
Mission Scenario was Eternal War 5, using Dawn of War deployment.
He ended up setting up all his tanks in the center of his zone, where his objective was, clustered up behind a big building. I set up my melta teams near the edges of the board, the flamer and storm bolters near the center, and Celestine dead center. The sisters ordinary and the Imagifier set up on my right flank behind a large, multistory building in the no-man's land, so they could move to it on turn one. and the Penitent Engine set up near them. The Exorcist sets up on the left flank, behind a church.
I scout my stuff before the game starts, moving the 4 Dominion squads in their transports forward 12" into the no-man's land. One squad of Meltaguns is sheltered from the Land Raiders by a big building, but the left flank one is in the open, and the ones in the center are really in the open.
Iron Hands 1:
He pull out the Crusader, one Land Raider, the Lasback, and an Assault Cannon Razorback around my left side of the big building he was hiding behind, and his other two tanks around my right side. The Razorbacks are positioned directly in front of the Land Raiders. He does a number on me with his Lascannons and Multimeltas, blowing up my Heavy Bolter and Immolation Flamer Immolators and sending both the Penitent Engine and the left-flank Multimelta Immolator to one wound.
Argent Shroud 1:
I respond by moving up Celestine with Hand of the Emperor, right up the middle of the board onto the big building his tanks are clustered around, and move my Battle Sisters into the big multistory building in front of them. Then, I unload all my meltaguns, and plod them up right next to his Land Raiders. The girls who bailed out of the destroyed tanks also move forward. I fire the Exorcist at the right-flank Razorback, dealing moderate damage to it. I fire the right-flank meltagun Dominions at the Land Raider near them, and send it to 4 wounds. I use their Immolator on the Razorback, then finish it with massed fire from my Battle Sisters. On the left flank, I do 6 wounds to the other Land Raider with my Meltaguns, and a few to an Assault Cannon Razorback. In my assault phase, I charge Celestine into the Crusader and the Lasback, charge the left-side Assault Cannon Razorback with the Storm Bolter Dominions, and charge his right-side Land Raider with my Immolator. I try to charge the left-side Land Raider with the 1-wound Immolator, but get killed in overwatch. Oh well. For the entire combat phase, just about nothing of significance happens. Celestine is good, but she can't solo Land Raiders in melee.
Iron Hands 2:
He falls out of combat with his Crusader and Lasback, but leaves the 4-wound Land Raider and the Assault Cannon Razorback in melee. He fires the active Land Raider at Celestine, but isn't super successful. That's his turn.
Argent Shroud 2:
Celestine regenerates back up to full using Spirit of the Martyr, and I use Diving Guidance to blow up the Lasback. Then I blow up the full-health Land Raider with my Dominions and the Exorcist, and charge the other one with the Penitent Engine. The Penitent Engine blows it up, and it detonates, killing off a melta team, the flamer team, the Penitent Engine, and dealing 4 wounds to the Immolator that was still in melee with it. Celestine charges the Captain and the Crusader, and sends the Captain to 2 wounds, but loses a bunch of her own. The Storm Bolter squad in combat with the Razorback continue to do nothing.
Iron Hands 3:
He has nothing to do but fight in melee, because there's nowhere to fall back to. The captain kills off Celestine, but her ressurects next to the Melta-Dominions, only 9" away from where she fell.
Argent Shroud 3:
Celestine closes with the Captain, and the Meltaguns close with the Crusader, and deal some damage to it, but don't kill it. Celestine charges it and the Captain, and kills the Captain.
Iron Hands 4:
He does nothing, and fights in melee, doing a wound to Celestine with the Crusader.
Argent Shroud 4:
Celestine falls back into the big building again, and the Dominions finish off the Crusader. It blows up, and detonates, killing them, dealing heavy damage to Celestine, heavily damaging the Razorback, and killing the girls in close-combat with it. At this point, I've lost quite a bit more to his tanks exploding than I have to his shooting.
Iron Hands 5:
His last razorback empties it's assault cannon into the Exorcist in a last act of defiance, doing nothing.
Argent Shroud 5:
The Exorcist takes a chunk off the Razorback, and it's finished with massed fire from the Battle Sisters Squad. That concludes the game, as there are no Space Marine models remaining.
It felt closer than it was, because I lost so many models to those exploding tanks. Otherwise, he was basically locked in combat all game.
and thats having a Ministorum army with no Sisters of Battle (except Celestine she basically fights with Astra Militarum or Sisters and her personal background is OK 
and the like in Rhino's trundling up the board and then unleashing the maniacs. 
I am not a fan of how they play which is mid/close range firepower and I am not a fan of their Aesthetic or Fluff. I am a fan however of the rest of the Ecclesiarchy namely the Frateris Militia (
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