Giantwalkingchair wrote:
So basically, witchhunter faith mechanic.

Anyways, this sort of talk belongs in the speculation thread.

Eh, it's not like anyone is going to have any tactical revelations about the current index in the next 5 weeks.

 deviantduck wrote:

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
So basically, witchhunter faith mechanic.

Anyways, this sort of talk belongs in the speculation thread.

Eh, it's not like anyone is going to have any tactical revelations about the current index in the next 5 weeks.

No, but traditionally we have separated that kind of discussion from this thread to keep it clean.

 pretre wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
So basically, witchhunter faith mechanic.

Anyways, this sort of talk belongs in the speculation thread.

Eh, it's not like anyone is going to have any tactical revelations about the current index in the next 5 weeks.

No, but traditionally we have separated that kind of discussion from this thread to keep it clean.

I assume after CA we'll start a new tactics thread? Then we can burn this mother down.

 deviantduck wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
So basically, witchhunter faith mechanic.

Anyways, this sort of talk belongs in the speculation thread.

Eh, it's not like anyone is going to have any tactical revelations about the current index in the next 5 weeks.

No, but traditionally we have separated that kind of discussion from this thread to keep it clean.

I assume after CA we'll start a new tactics thread? Then we can burn this mother down.

Again, traditionally we start a new one when a new book comes out. Not sure if this will count, but we certainly can start a new thread.

cmspano wrote:
Not very impressed by either of the reveals. The strat is bad, the order trait is worse. Basic Space Marines are garbage in melee, this turns Sisters into a T3 WS4+ space marine in melee. Maybe there are a couple niche units that could benefit from it but unless we see a radical change in stat lines it's not going to suddenly make sisters even a mediocre melee unit.

I think the big winners are Seraphim and Repressors (all Sisters vehicles have Order keyword), adding on Repentia if they get a point reduction.
Seraphim specifically benefit greatly from it, although you wouldn't assume so at first glance: assume a max sized squad of basic seraphim deepstriking, burning the strat on landing to shoot 40 BS3 bolter shots. Then charging in to swing with 21 more WS3 bolter-equivalent attacks. 61 BS3 bolter attacks for 110 points is an excellent rate.

cmspano wrote:
Not very impressed by either of the reveals. The strat is bad, the order trait is worse. Basic Space Marines are garbage in melee, this turns Sisters into a T3 WS4+ space marine in melee. Maybe there are a couple niche units that could benefit from it but unless we see a radical change in stat lines it's not going to suddenly make sisters even a mediocre melee unit.

I must be doing something wrong, because I love to charge my Sisters into shooting units that are lackluster in HTH combat. More attacks for me, they don't get to shoot when they fallback, and I have pistols if they decide to stay and fight it out. I rather like the idea on enhancing their combat effectiveness with +1 S ant +1 A on the charge.

Still, have to wait to see what other Convictions I can pick for the Order of the Imperial Rose.

PuppetSoul wrote:

cmspano wrote:
Not very impressed by either of the reveals. The strat is bad, the order trait is worse. Basic Space Marines are garbage in melee, this turns Sisters into a T3 WS4+ space marine in melee. Maybe there are a couple niche units that could benefit from it but unless we see a radical change in stat lines it's not going to suddenly make sisters even a mediocre melee unit.

I think the big winners are Seraphim and Repressors (all Sisters vehicles have Order keyword), adding on Repentia if they get a point reduction.
Seraphim specifically benefit greatly from it, although you wouldn't assume so at first glance: assume a max sized squad of basic seraphim deepstriking, burning the strat on landing to shoot 40 BS3 bolter shots. Then charging in to swing with 21 more WS3 bolter-equivalent attacks. 61 BS3 bolter attacks for 110 points is an excellent rate.

That's assuming that OoBR trait, or any of them, apply to vehicles. 9" charges aren't a given, in my experience deepstriking Seraphim are going to shoot, fail the charge and then die. Shooting twice is better than once for sure. I run my Seraphim for the double move Inferno Pistol anti-tank power they bring. So unless something else changes (admitting for sure that we don't know much currently and a lot might actually be changing) I would rather use my Seraphim in their AT role rather than as one off horde killers. I already have plenty of those that are far better protected in Repressors.

 dracpanzer wrote:

PuppetSoul wrote:

cmspano wrote:
Not very impressed by either of the reveals. The strat is bad, the order trait is worse. Basic Space Marines are garbage in melee, this turns Sisters into a T3 WS4+ space marine in melee. Maybe there are a couple niche units that could benefit from it but unless we see a radical change in stat lines it's not going to suddenly make sisters even a mediocre melee unit.

I think the big winners are Seraphim and Repressors (all Sisters vehicles have Order keyword), adding on Repentia if they get a point reduction.
Seraphim specifically benefit greatly from it, although you wouldn't assume so at first glance: assume a max sized squad of basic seraphim deepstriking, burning the strat on landing to shoot 40 BS3 bolter shots. Then charging in to swing with 21 more WS3 bolter-equivalent attacks. 61 BS3 bolter attacks for 110 points is an excellent rate.

That's assuming that OoBR trait, or any of them, apply to vehicles. 9" charges aren't a given, in my experience deepstriking Seraphim are going to shoot, fail the charge and then die. Shooting twice is better than once for sure. I run my Seraphim for the double move Inferno Pistol anti-tank power they bring. So unless something else changes (admitting for sure that we don't know much currently and a lot might actually be changing) I would rather use my Seraphim in their AT role rather than as one off horde killers. I already have plenty of those that are far better protected in Repressors.

As written, it applies to Vehicles. It would be a significant step back from where the game has been since the AM Codex to not have a Conviction include them.

Yeah thus far the only factions whose "chapter tactics" don't affect their vehicles are marines. Rumor mills says that is most likely changing in chapter approved too.

The revealed Order trait could be useful on Repressors- Str7 would not be much of a benefit, but 4 attacks (making it 12 attacks versus Infantry) is nice versus hordes.

Yeah, but it would be pretty safe to assume that like chapter tactics, vehicles wouldn't get the bonus.

Rynner wrote:Yeah thus far the only factions whose "chapter tactics" don't affect their vehicles are marines. Rumor mills says that is most likely changing in chapter approved too.

davidgr33n wrote:The revealed Order trait could be useful on Repressors- Str7 would not be much of a benefit, but 4 attacks (making it 12 attacks versus Infantry) is nice versus hordes.

Drider wrote:Yeah, but it would be pretty safe to assume that like chapter tactics, vehicles wouldn't get the bonus.

Answered in the thread.

 dracpanzer wrote:

That's assuming that OoBR trait, or any of them, apply to vehicles. 9" charges aren't a given, in my experience deepstriking Seraphim are going to shoot, fail the charge and then die. Shooting twice is better than once for sure. I run my Seraphim for the double move Inferno Pistol anti-tank power they bring. So unless something else changes (admitting for sure that we don't know much currently and a lot might actually be changing) I would rather use my Seraphim in their AT role rather than as one off horde killers. I already have plenty of those that are far better protected in Repressors.

I stated previous that even with the stratagem, I don't see deepstriking Seraphim as being a reasonable alternative to taking Inferno pistols. I'm just explaining that the stratagem actually isn't bad, it just isn't good enough to eclipse the opportunity cost of not taking Inferno Pistols. If rule of 3 and FAQ2's version of no-deepstrike-at-all weren't a thing though, I could totally see taking two 10-girl sets of them to betastrike one set on turn 1 and clear a backfield objective on turn 2.

That said, unless Repentia get points-reduced and a slingshot or deepstrike stratagem, I can't see at least a few of the other Orders eclipsing Bloody Rose in usefulness. But truth be told, Sisters were extremely close to being top tier already, so it wouldn't take much to get there: giving Celestine OotBR's bonus would be enough for her to see top-table play again. Making Exorcists not suck, and decreasing the cost of flamers and heavy flamers, would have Sisters rivaling Ynnari for the top Soup primary, and anything after that is just gravy.

PuppetSoul wrote:

 dracpanzer wrote:

That's assuming that OoBR trait, or any of them, apply to vehicles. 9" charges aren't a given, in my experience deepstriking Seraphim are going to shoot, fail the charge and then die. Shooting twice is better than once for sure. I run my Seraphim for the double move Inferno Pistol anti-tank power they bring. So unless something else changes (admitting for sure that we don't know much currently and a lot might actually be changing) I would rather use my Seraphim in their AT role rather than as one off horde killers. I already have plenty of those that are far better protected in Repressors.

I stated previous that even with the stratagem, I don't see deepstriking Seraphim as being a reasonable alternative to taking Inferno pistols. I'm just explaining that the stratagem actually isn't bad, it just isn't good enough to eclipse the opportunity cost of not taking Inferno Pistols. If rule of 3 and FAQ2's version of no-deepstrike-at-all weren't a thing though, I could totally see taking two 10-girl sets of them to betastrike one set on turn 1 and clear a backfield objective on turn 2.

That said, unless Repentia get points-reduced and a slingshot or deepstrike stratagem, I can't see at least a few of the other Orders eclipsing Bloody Rose in usefulness. But truth be told, Sisters were extremely close to being top tier already, so it wouldn't take much to get there: giving Celestine OotBR's bonus would be enough for her to see top-table play again. Making Exorcists not suck, and decreasing the cost of flamers and heavy flamers, would have Sisters rivaling Ynnari for the top Soup primary, and anything after that is just gravy.

I really like the new stratagem. It gives me a reason to actually bring a second squad of Seraphim. Now I can have the fast moving turn 1 inferno pistols and the turn 2 40 shot bolter gals.

 deviantduck wrote:
I really like the new stratagem. It gives me a reason to actually bring a second squad of Seraphim. Now I can have the fast moving turn 1 inferno pistols and the turn 2 40 shot bolter gals.

Were you not bringing three sets of inferno pistol Seraphim? That seems like a big mistake.

The core of every list I build, regardless of where I'm going with it, is Celestine w/ her kids and three MSU of Seraphim with inferno pistols.

I can see dropping one of those to run the 10-girl squad when CA comes out, but right now, I can't stress enough how good minimum sized inferno pistol Seraphim are for ITC, where Repressors give up multiple secondaries and walk straight into anti-Knight firepower.

IDK about this new stuff, though awesome release (however, I can wait for codex). What I care about is should I mount my mini's on 32s or 25's... are the new mini's gunna be 32's? (for modeling and painting up my army atm. I sold a lot recently, but now am painting up a keep army and want to know base size, before waste time (ussually do 32's for SoB cause all metal they need it) I have all basic on 25's but converting to 32's and upgradin paint job, so want to know

I've been doing 32s. Old seraphim were on 25s, the Gemini are on 32s. In truth no one knows for sure, so, flip a coin.

 Drider wrote:
Yeah, but it would be pretty safe to assume that like chapter tactics, vehicles wouldn't get the bonus.

Why it would be safe to assume when minority of codexes restrict like that?

 Creeping Dementia wrote:
I've been doing 32s. Old seraphim were on 25s, the Gemini are on 32s. In truth no one knows for sure, so, flip a coin.

I sold around 4k than 2k all on 32's (I would think standard), but is GW am hesitant sometime pull out of bag


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I do all 32's for troopers, Why would you do seraphim on 25's and normal on 32's??? , All 32's they the same

I'm saying the old models were sold with 25s. The newest models we have that somewhat resemble 'regular troopers' were the Gemini, and they came on 32s.
However, they are technically part of an HQ choice, so it doesn't necessarily guarantee that all Seraphim and troopers will be on 32mm bases.

Bottom line, we won't have a clue what the actual base sizes will be until the models are released. I'd love to be able to tell you 100% that they are going to be 32s, but nobody knows right now.

PuppetSoul wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
I really like the new stratagem. It gives me a reason to actually bring a second squad of Seraphim. Now I can have the fast moving turn 1 inferno pistols and the turn 2 40 shot bolter gals.

Were you not bringing three sets of inferno pistol Seraphim? That seems like a big mistake.

The core of every list I build, regardless of where I'm going with it, is Celestine w/ her kids and three MSU of Seraphim with inferno pistols.

I can see dropping one of those to run the 10-girl squad when CA comes out, but right now, I can't stress enough how good minimum sized inferno pistol Seraphim are for ITC, where Repressors give up multiple secondaries and walk straight into anti-Knight firepower.

When the last FAQ dropped I ditched the Seraphim for Battle Sisters. I have yet to find small Seraphim squads worth it. Meltas are too random.

WHY 32 others but 25 seraphim (all sob where 25...)


Think new Veridyan was a 32, My new Cele is a 40 + 2x 32 Gemini (if gemi 32's other have to be)

I think all will be 32's, here's hoping just to balance the models correctly.

Rynner wrote:

PuppetSoul wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
I really like the new stratagem. It gives me a reason to actually bring a second squad of Seraphim. Now I can have the fast moving turn 1 inferno pistols and the turn 2 40 shot bolter gals.

Were you not bringing three sets of inferno pistol Seraphim? That seems like a big mistake.

The core of every list I build, regardless of where I'm going with it, is Celestine w/ her kids and three MSU of Seraphim with inferno pistols.

I can see dropping one of those to run the 10-girl squad when CA comes out, but right now, I can't stress enough how good minimum sized inferno pistol Seraphim are for ITC, where Repressors give up multiple secondaries and walk straight into anti-Knight firepower.

When the last FAQ dropped I ditched the Seraphim for Battle Sisters. I have yet to find small Seraphim squads worth it. Meltas are too random.

I've never ran more than 1 squad of Seraphim. Also, my Seraphim are on 32s. My troops are on 25s. Seraphim die to a stiff breeze, so I never ran more than my 8 man squad. Repressors are still way better than Seraphim, even in the current meta.

 deviantduck wrote:

Rynner wrote:

PuppetSoul wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
I really like the new stratagem. It gives me a reason to actually bring a second squad of Seraphim. Now I can have the fast moving turn 1 inferno pistols and the turn 2 40 shot bolter gals.

Were you not bringing three sets of inferno pistol Seraphim? That seems like a big mistake.

The core of every list I build, regardless of where I'm going with it, is Celestine w/ her kids and three MSU of Seraphim with inferno pistols.

I can see dropping one of those to run the 10-girl squad when CA comes out, but right now, I can't stress enough how good minimum sized inferno pistol Seraphim are for ITC, where Repressors give up multiple secondaries and walk straight into anti-Knight firepower.

When the last FAQ dropped I ditched the Seraphim for Battle Sisters. I have yet to find small Seraphim squads worth it. Meltas are too random.

I've never ran more than 1 squad of Seraphim. Also, my Seraphim are on 32s. My troops are on 25s. Seraphim die to a stiff breeze, so I never ran more than my 8 man squad. Repressors are still way better than Seraphim, even in the current meta.

I take 20-30 Seraphim and love them, they do insane damage every game, you need to hide thema nd let Celestine aura also help, while behind LoS and in cover a 2+/6++ (rerolling into a 5++) that can double move out of LoS is just very good.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

Rynner wrote:

PuppetSoul wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
I really like the new stratagem. It gives me a reason to actually bring a second squad of Seraphim. Now I can have the fast moving turn 1 inferno pistols and the turn 2 40 shot bolter gals.

Were you not bringing three sets of inferno pistol Seraphim? That seems like a big mistake.

The core of every list I build, regardless of where I'm going with it, is Celestine w/ her kids and three MSU of Seraphim with inferno pistols.

I can see dropping one of those to run the 10-girl squad when CA comes out, but right now, I can't stress enough how good minimum sized inferno pistol Seraphim are for ITC, where Repressors give up multiple secondaries and walk straight into anti-Knight firepower.

When the last FAQ dropped I ditched the Seraphim for Battle Sisters. I have yet to find small Seraphim squads worth it. Meltas are too random.

I've never ran more than 1 squad of Seraphim. Also, my Seraphim are on 32s. My troops are on 25s. Seraphim die to a stiff breeze, so I never ran more than my 8 man squad. Repressors are still way better than Seraphim, even in the current meta.

I take 20-30 Seraphim and love them, they do insane damage every game, you need to hide thema nd let Celestine aura also help, while behind LoS and in cover a 2+/6++ (rerolling into a 5++) that can double move out of LoS is just very good.

I have more faith in vehicles than naked troops. I could see the argument for 2, but definitely not 3 (as it stands right now) since there's only 1 AoF available to them. Also, we disagree on their 5++ rerollable to 5++ save. BCB didn't give you a glass of kool-aid did he?

I used to run a big unit of 10 with inferno pistols but as time went on they got less and less effective. It was almost a clean swap going from 10 seraphim to 15 battle sisters. I haven't really missed them yet. I find they generally suicide forward and maybe, if they get lucky, kill something, before dying instantly.

Basically on response to page 101 in aggregate:

Seraphim are great, but I would never bring a squad of 10 while still limited to only 3 units. Too much exposure to morale for too little gain. I'm fine with 5s and 7-8 would be the MAX I would do. I don't see how battle sisters could be a clean swap.
a battalion of battle sisters is the core to every list I make, pretty much, but they can't fill any of the roles I usually use seraphim for(character assasination and covert vehicle hunting mostly) so 'swapping' them wouldn't really work.

The new stratagem will be useful if they make handflamers not totally worthless or give seraphim some other tool they can use to have decent shooting outside of 9". If they don't, then that's just a mediocre chaff clearing unit, especially considering that you only get the fire the handlamers once(the range bonus only applies in the movement phase).

The conviction is actually incredible. The problem is the army USING it sucks at taking advantage of it. But here's the thing: If sisters get ANY reasonably strong CQC options, then this conviction is ABSOLUTELY powerful enough to justify taking a bloody rose detachment. Even current repentia become absolute cuisinarts with this level of buff, despite still being to fragile/slow/expensive to ever you. If they get special rules or transportation options that make them a viable choice, this conviction is good enough that you might be able to see competitive repentia at some point.

Applying it to battle sisters and calling it terrible is incredibly shortsighted. Chapter tactics work by detachment and having such an obscenely powerful chapter tactic available for running a close combat focused detachment is really strong. Imagine Celestine with 7 S8 AP3 attacks and 8 S4 AP3 attacks. Pair that monstrosity up with some solid supporting combat units and you could have a terrifying little CQC backbone for once.

I meant points wise in terms of a swap. 3x Naked BSS squads are 145, 10x Seraphim with infernos are 146.

They don't exactly do the same thing but 5x more Command points have been way more useful post FAQ.

I have to agree with erjak on the chapter tactic not being totally useless. It doesn't do wonders for our WS4 models as they are still ws4. But it does open up the option of throwing in a power weapon on a superior without it being a total waste. It makes celestians slightly viable as the superior now gets 4 ws3 attacks, 5 with a priest, give her a p.axe and she's has a respectable s5 ap-2. Best of all it makes seraphim not completely useless in melee. Which I think is the key thing here, a buff this powerful has taken our melee from guard in SM quantity to being on par with sm and making melee weapon options not a total waste of points.

 deviantduck wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

Rynner wrote:

PuppetSoul wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
I really like the new stratagem. It gives me a reason to actually bring a second squad of Seraphim. Now I can have the fast moving turn 1 inferno pistols and the turn 2 40 shot bolter gals.

Were you not bringing three sets of inferno pistol Seraphim? That seems like a big mistake.

The core of every list I build, regardless of where I'm going with it, is Celestine w/ her kids and three MSU of Seraphim with inferno pistols.

I can see dropping one of those to run the 10-girl squad when CA comes out, but right now, I can't stress enough how good minimum sized inferno pistol Seraphim are for ITC, where Repressors give up multiple secondaries and walk straight into anti-Knight firepower.

When the last FAQ dropped I ditched the Seraphim for Battle Sisters. I have yet to find small Seraphim squads worth it. Meltas are too random.

I've never ran more than 1 squad of Seraphim. Also, my Seraphim are on 32s. My troops are on 25s. Seraphim die to a stiff breeze, so I never ran more than my 8 man squad. Repressors are still way better than Seraphim, even in the current meta.

I take 20-30 Seraphim and love them, they do insane damage every game, you need to hide thema nd let Celestine aura also help, while behind LoS and in cover a 2+/6++ (rerolling into a 5++) that can double move out of LoS is just very good.

I have more faith in vehicles than naked troops. I could see the argument for 2, but definitely not 3 (as it stands right now) since there's only 1 AoF available to them. Also, we disagree on their 5++ rerollable to 5++ save. BCB didn't give you a glass of kool-aid did he?

I only play vehicles for fun lists, otherwise its 100+ bodies on the table lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rynner wrote:
I meant points wise in terms of a swap. 3x Naked BSS squads are 145, 10x Seraphim with infernos are 146.

They don't exactly do the same thing but 5x more Command points have been way more useful post FAQ.

I take a Brigade and Outrider, i waste CP's like a boss and i still have left over ones, i really dont need more than 16 CP as of right now.

I have noticed recently that the way I use dominions differ from the way most posters on the forum use theirs, so I am posting this to ask if I have missed anything about them that makes my way nonviable.

The way I use my dominions is to double them up in the same reppressor, usually having one squad armed with all storm bolters, and the other with all melta/combi melta. I then throw the most expendable squad out of the repressor when they get in range.

While this method leads to each squad having less overall protection compared to each squad having it's own reppressor, I feel that the saving of points is worth it as it allows me to have more models on the field and therefore greater firepower, at least on the first strike.

Granted most of the games I have played in my local area have a low point value, around 900 points, so the rule of three does not serve to limit me that much.

Yeah, if i did that, that vehicle will be the 1st to be shot at and die. Its super easy to kill a Rhino this edition. its only 11-13 wounds (repressors are 13w Rhinos after all).

 Vandire651 wrote:
I have noticed recently that the way I use dominions differ from the way most posters on the forum use theirs, so I am posting this to ask if I have missed anything about them that makes my way nonviable.

The way I use my dominions is to double them up in the same reppressor, usually having one squad armed with all storm bolters, and the other with all melta/combi melta. I then throw the most expendable squad out of the repressor when they get in range.

While this method leads to each squad having less overall protection compared to each squad having it's own reppressor, I feel that the saving of points is worth it as it allows me to have more models on the field and therefore greater firepower, at least on the first strike.

Granted most of the games I have played in my local area have a low point value, around 900 points, so the rule of three does not serve to limit me that much.

Before the rule of 3 knocked us down and took our lunch money I would run 3 repressors with 6 dominions just like this. Scout them up then drop off guys if you need or shoot whatever 6 best guns you needed.

That creates a 300 point pinata that all but guarantees Kill More, a BGH point and a Butcher's Bill point when it pops.

PuppetSoul wrote:
That creates a 300 point pinata that all but guarantees Kill More, a BGH point and a Butcher's Bill point when it pops.

I ran 3 of those. So 930 in total. This is 8th edition. You can't stop people from killing stuff. You just have to kill more faster.

 deviantduck wrote:
I ran 3 of those. So 930 in total. This is 8th edition. You can't stop people from killing stuff. You just have to kill more faster.

I'd say I have been very successful on a list centered around the strategy of denying Hold More or allowing more than two points to any secondary objective that isn't Celestine.

PuppetSoul wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
I ran 3 of those. So 930 in total. This is 8th edition. You can't stop people from killing stuff. You just have to kill more faster.

I'd say I have been very successful on a list centered around the strategy of denying Hold More or allowing more than two points to any secondary objective that isn't Celestine.

Therein lies the beauty of 40k. You're only doing it wrong if you're not playing the game.

 Vandire651 wrote:

The way I use my dominions is to double them up in the same reppressor, usually having one squad armed with all storm bolters, and the other with all melta/combi melta. I then throw the most expendable squad out of the repressor when they get in range.

While this method leads to each squad having less overall protection compared to each squad having it's own reppressor, I feel that the saving of points is worth it as it allows me to have more models on the field and therefore greater firepower, at least on the first strike.

Never thought about doubling up. I like that idea. But I do agree, its going to be even more of a target. Granted the main targets my opponents go after are Repressor with 5 melta, seraphims with 4 meltas, or Celestine. I tend to put all my stormbolters in my BSS, but the concentrated fire power of them all together and being highly mobile, I going to have to try this idea.

I could even see where getting both units out and screening each other (depending on what you want) could be helpful.

One thing that I have added to my SoB army, the Inquisition. Get ya Celestines BFF, Greyfax, another plain Inquistor (sister of silence make a good proxy) and 3 acolytes, throw them in an Immolator and burn/smite the heretics!

Any one seen the new strategem, holy trinity?
1cp and gives a unit +1to wound rolls iff the unit is firing melta, flamer and bolt weapons at the target.
I like it - very fluffy, but messes with my list building as most of my units focus on one specialism.
I'm thinking I might have to give the superior in my melta dom squad a combi flamer. If she fires both bolter and flamer that should unlock the melta doms to wounding knights on 2s

Yeah i saw it, its fluffy and a nice idea,but i dont think i'm going to use it even once.

I dont mix and match my Melt/Flamers im a very strong believe for 40k each unit is build for a purpose.

SM can split, so mixing a Plasma/ML in them is fine, SoB cant.

For those who can't view:

 Kapitan Montag wrote:
If she fires both bolter and flamer that should unlock the melta doms to wounding knights on 2s

3s - knights are T8.

Contextually speaking such a stratagem would be terrible, as while the bonus is useful it makes players jump through all kinds of hoops that disadvantage their army in return for a bonus that a number of other factions can get unconditionally for 1 CP (Veterans of the long war)

Has to be 3 different models firing each of the trinity; so shooting both the bolt and the combi on the combi bolter doesnt count.
Doesnt stop tou from having a combi flamer on the melta dom squad and throwing a bolter girl in for the benefit and throwing them into an immolator or maxing out the dom squad in a repressor to keep the pill box and have them jump out and pop the strat qhen tou really want something to die.

What about heavy flamer retributors with combi melta superior and a sprinkling on bolter girls? Heavy flamers wounding T8 on 4+ anything <T4 on a 2+ thems a lot of auto hits with healthy wound rolls.

I love this strat. It plays nicely into all my squad loadouts.
Max squads will benefit healthily from this stratagem.>

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
I love this strat.

Veterans of the Long War is an incredibly useful strat - I use it all the time when I play chaos.

It's just frustrating that the sisters seem to have inherited such a limited and disadvantageous version of it. I realise it's not as if GW could have made it cheaper than 1CP but chaos get more benefit (bigger guns and better melee) with less drawbacks and any designer who has played the game should have spotted this before they finished writing the stratagem.

&@#$ it, what is up with the terrible strats for sisters. This might have been mildly useful back in 4th-5th edition when the best BSS layout was melta/heavy Flamer, but flamers and meltas were some of the better weapons in the game back then. This strat is never going to be used because it's never an optimized build to have all three weapons in the same unit.

If this was a baseline trait that all sisters had, sure, fine, whatever. But there's no way I'm paying a CP for it AND altering my unit builds to an inferior configuration just to trigger it. Exact same thing as the Seraphim hand flamer garbage strat, never gonna be used. At this rate our 'input' for the Sisters Beta Test is going to be 'nope, rewrite it, try again'.

Ok, I feel better now.

A.T. wrote:

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
I love this strat.

Veterans of the Long War is an incredibly useful strat - I use it all the time when I play chaos.

It's just frustrating that the sisters seem to have inherited such a limited and disadvantageous version of it. I realise it's not as if GW could have made it cheaper than 1CP but chaos get more benefit (bigger guns and better melee) with less drawbacks and any designer who has played the game should have spotted this before they finished writing the stratagem.

Do we have any reason to suspect that this stratagem will be able to target units in Repressors? If not, I can't imagine using it on anything other than the old style BSS squad sporting a meltagun and flamer. Those are quite cost prohibitive. I don't see myself using the stratagem much, certainly not building units to utilize it. Fluffy sure, but unless we see some point changes, unit changes or otherwise, I don't see it being used much competitively.

Depends alot if Melta's change pts cost in CA as well

It seems situational, fun, and fluffy. Practical today? No. But who knows after CA drops. Flamers and melta might go down in points for us.

MG and MM need a points drop for sure, IDK why a MM is 27pts when a ML is 25pts, double the range, and 2 modes.

MM should be 20pts and assault, MGs need to be 12pts

It seems Combi-Flamers will be very common in units, especially the 4-Melta Dominions.

Since it's just RANGE that matters for this Stratagem, and not actually having to have the Holy Trinity hat-trick hitting AND wounding AND opponents failing saves, it has some greater utility.

Stick a Multi-Melta at the back of a blob squad and a Flamer at the front and Ye Olde Humble Bolter... ee is wounding Marines on 3+, and Knights on a 5+ at double-tap range.

If there's a Relic that is like a 7th Edition Torrent Flamer or a Special Character with that ability, or an 18" range Flamer Lance or some-such it'll be an auto-include.

Overall, even a +1 to Wound is OK, but the drawbacks of having to be in close range once again clash with the fragility of Sister to return fire. Not sure if it will be worth it. building an army around this Stratagem during list construction.

Silly Thought: Since it just says this works on an "Adepta Sororitas unit", that would include vehicles. If (and it's a BIIIIG if) a vehicle could upgrade a Storm Bolter to a Combi-Melta then the Immolator could make use of it with all the same range. Wounding Marines on 2+ and Knights on a 4+ at 12".

Holy Promethium, Batman!

Wait a sec... It calls out DIFFERENT MODELS in a unit, so the Combi-Weapon dodge won't work.

More uselessness.

Supports my theory that the Sisters Beta Codex is SUPPOSED to suck so that pretty new models will get Un-Sucky rules when they come out at last.

Lol your post went over all the stages that went through my brain when I first read the strat.
1: Oh cool we get +1 to wound.
2: Oh wait, it's only if we fire all three different weapons at the Target.
3: Hold on now, the weapons have to be from 3 different models.
4: Do we have to pat our head, rub our belly, hop on one foot and quote shakespear all at the same time too?
5: No thanks, another wasted Strat.

The five stages of Grief for Sisters Strats.

Now maybe if the reward for jumping through the hoops and paying a CP was better then maybe it would be worth it. With how small our individual unit damage output is, a +1 to wound on a single squad just isn't a big bonus. Now if it gave like +1 to hit, +1 to wound, and +1 to AP, then it might be worth readjusting my BSS setups. +1 to wound by itself just won't really have an impact on the battle though, and you should really only be spending CPs on things that will actually affect the overall outcome.

TYep, if combi could work it would be playable, but for a fun/narrative game? sure its cool.

For optimized squads, the Holy Trinity will never see use. For nice fluffy squads, it will be rather nice.

My Witchhunter era Battle Sister Squads of Meltagun plus Heavy Flamer will like it a lot. Target infantry and they are wounding Marines on 3's and 2's (Heavy Flamer). Target transports and they are wounding on 2s (Meltagun) and 4s (Bolters and Heavy Flamer). Not bad. Not bad at all.

The holy trinity could be useful on a unit of seraphim that use an act of faith to get close etc, could give a reason to take two hand flamers. Just was thinking it can only be used on one squad per turn and would give a reason to take two hand flamers over just bare bones or/with two or so inferno pistol's etc. Would make people maybe take two hand flamer's and two inferno's etc, etc.

Sisters will probably get a lot better strats but is what I thought for this one over the obvious dominion move up/multi weapon config or trying to get BSS in range, either units with them mix of weapons and all shoot at the same target etc.

Where is the Melta coming from? The superior cant take melta, and you have to take the pistols in pairs.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Where is the Melta coming from? The superior cant take melta, and you have to take the pistols in pairs.

The inferno pistols.

EDIT: You would take one squad with 2x inferno pistol's (1 model), 2x hand flamer's (1 model), the Superior would have whatever (prob a plasma pistol and bolt pistol), the rest would have 2x bolt pistols each. I don't see the ambiguity, unless you didn't see the last part of the stratagem that clarifies what is bolt,flame and melta.

No i was implying I thought you might has thought the superior could or you can get 1 melta.

I fully understand how it works, and i just feel its for fluff play, that isnt bad, its nice to have a couple strats for fun. I just wont be using it (Most likely)


For anyone interested in math based on current SoB rules

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I fully understand how it works, and i just feel its for fluff play, that isnt bad, its nice to have a couple strats for fun. I just wont be using it (Most likely)

If they give the Superior the option to take a hand flamer instead of the plasma pistol, it can see doing that, and using this strat at a competiive level when it's time for the Seraphim to aloha snackbar.

I just can't see any other functional use for the strat in any combination you would realistically take, unless flamer and melta variants become so cheap that you'd do ridiculous things like quad HF Ret with a combimelta Superior and an ablative wound in a cardboard box. In that scenario, it would be extremely powerful (4d6 of wounding hordes on 2s). That's not points efficient right now, but if they brought HF down to like 10, Repressors down to 90 with base armaments, and multimeltas to around 16, I could definitely see fielding one or two of them: 92 for repressor w/ dual SB, Rets 54 w/ 56 points of weapons so 200 total? I can see it. At its current price of 268 I can't.

Sad thing is, this would be good for combining with the 12" Flamer Pistols while Deepstriking Stratagem previewed earlier, EXCEPT....

The only Melta-type weapons Seraphim (and Superiors) can take are Inferno Pistols, which are only 6" range, and the +1 to Wound won't work without the Melta leg of this Trinity tripod also being in range.

Maybe if a Seraphim Superior could take a Combi-Melta...

But I'm expecting the Beta Codex sisters to have the options only allowed on the ancient models we currently have (No kitbashes for you!) and may even run as far as no Inferno Pistols on Seraphim at all, because there were no official models produced back in the day.

The Open Beta Codex HAS to suck so that the community input from non-Sisters players is relevant and the resulting Shiny New Sisters Codex (with that new model range in plastic to sell! Sell! SELL!) won't suck.

PuppetSoul wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I fully understand how it works, and i just feel its for fluff play, that isnt bad, its nice to have a couple strats for fun. I just wont be using it (Most likely)

If they give the Superior the option to take a hand flamer instead of the plasma pistol, it can see doing that, and using this strat at a competiive level when it's time for the Seraphim to aloha snackbar.

I just can't see any other functional use for the strat in any combination you would realistically take, unless flamer and melta variants become so cheap that you'd do ridiculous things like quad HF Ret with a combimelta Superior and an ablative wound in a cardboard box. In that scenario, it would be extremely powerful (4d6 of wounding hordes on 2s). That's not points efficient right now, but if they brought HF down to like 10, Repressors down to 90 with base armaments, and multimeltas to around 16, I could definitely see fielding one or two of them: 92 for repressor w/ dual SB, Rets 54 w/ 56 points of weapons so 200 total? I can see it. At its current price of 268 I can't.

Assuming the Repressor still exists in the new codex. They have been out of production for a while. GWs policy since 8th started has been to only have GW available models in the codex, other legacy stuff sticks with index rules. Sisters might be an exception due to them supposedly getting a whole new model line. But we have no guarantee that the Repressor is even going to be a Codex unit currently.

The Repressor in FW and will likely get an update like the ork FW stuff did to bring them in line with their new Dex even if it doesn't make it in to the CA BETA Dex.

 Creeping Dementia wrote:

Assuming the Repressor still exists in the new codex. They have been out of production for a while. GWs policy since 8th started has been to only have GW available models in the codex, other legacy stuff sticks with index rules. Sisters might be an exception due to them supposedly getting a whole new model line. But we have no guarantee that the Repressor is even going to be a Codex unit currently.

While migrating the Repressor towards the BoneBreaker would be good, boosting its melee damage output twenty-fold for a 40% cost increase, I don't actually expect that to happen.

What I do expect to happen though, is for the cost of it to be reduced significantly due to its power level compared to a BoneBreaker: a Repressor is a Rhino you can shoot out of, a BoneBreaker is a Gallant you can shoot out of. They should not be anywhere near the same point cost.

 Vandire651 wrote:
I have noticed recently that the way I use dominions differ from the way most posters on the forum use theirs, so I am posting this to ask if I have missed anything about them that makes my way nonviable.

The way I use my dominions is to double them up in the same reppressor, usually having one squad armed with all storm bolters, and the other with all melta/combi melta. I then throw the most expendable squad out of the repressor when they get in range.

While this method leads to each squad having less overall protection compared to each squad having it's own reppressor, I feel that the saving of points is worth it as it allows me to have more models on the field and therefore greater firepower, at least on the first strike.

Granted most of the games I have played in my local area have a low point value, around 900 points, so the rule of three does not serve to limit me that much.

Because the rule of 3 would mean your second repressor would be a single squad anyway. Which would leave your doubled up repressor with a big neon 'kill me' sign on top of it. Basically in a 2000 point game, thanks to the rule of three, all this setup does is create a very expensive suicide bunker for one of our best units. When we could run more than 3 units of dominions it was an unorthodox buy viable setup, however.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PuppetSoul wrote:

 Creeping Dementia wrote:

Assuming the Repressor still exists in the new codex. They have been out of production for a while. GWs policy since 8th started has been to only have GW available models in the codex, other legacy stuff sticks with index rules. Sisters might be an exception due to them supposedly getting a whole new model line. But we have no guarantee that the Repressor is even going to be a Codex unit currently.

While migrating the Repressor towards the BoneBreaker would be good, boosting its melee damage output twenty-fold for a 40% cost increase, I don't actually expect that to happen.

What I do expect to happen though, is for the cost of it to be reduced significantly due to its power level compared to a BoneBreaker: a Repressor is a Rhino you can shoot out of, a BoneBreaker is a Gallant you can shoot out of. They should not be anywhere near the same point cost.

Can they shoot out of a bonebreaker? While I haven't seen the actual warscroll, battlescribe doesn't have any type of rule on it indicating units could shoot out of a bonebreaker and none of the Ork discussions I could find indicate anything about units shooting out of it either? It seems like it doesn't actually have the open topped rule the normal battlewagon has. I could be wrong though because again, I haven't been able to find the actual warscroll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kapitan Montag wrote:
Any one seen the new strategem, holy trinity?
1cp and gives a unit +1to wound rolls iff the unit is firing melta, flamer and bolt weapons at the target.
I like it - very fluffy, but messes with my list building as most of my units focus on one specialism.
I'm thinking I might have to give the superior in my melta dom squad a combi flamer. If she fires both bolter and flamer that should unlock the melta doms to wounding knights on 2s

It's bad. Firstly, you have to take a bolter girl also, combi-flamer won't cut it because it says 'other model'. Also it maths out almost exactly the same as just running 5 melta doms, just 4" shorter range. If you were to use the CP on a reroll then the 5 melta squad actually ends up slightly ahead.

Mathematically it's really only viable for Heavy Flamer retributor squads. Even mixed BSS squads will usually get more out of a simple reroll.

ERJAK wrote:

Can they shoot out of a bonebreaker? While I haven't seen the actual warscroll, battlescribe doesn't have any type of rule on it indicating units could shoot out of a bonebreaker and none of the Ork discussions I could find indicate anything about units shooting out of it either? It seems like it doesn't actually have the open topped rule the normal battlewagon has. I could be wrong though because again, I haven't been able to find the actual warscroll.

Correct. It's closed topped as default so T8(rather than T7 open topped battlewagon is) and no shooting from inside.

 Creeping Dementia wrote:

PuppetSoul wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I fully understand how it works, and i just feel its for fluff play, that isnt bad, its nice to have a couple strats for fun. I just wont be using it (Most likely)

If they give the Superior the option to take a hand flamer instead of the plasma pistol, it can see doing that, and using this strat at a competiive level when it's time for the Seraphim to aloha snackbar.

I just can't see any other functional use for the strat in any combination you would realistically take, unless flamer and melta variants become so cheap that you'd do ridiculous things like quad HF Ret with a combimelta Superior and an ablative wound in a cardboard box. In that scenario, it would be extremely powerful (4d6 of wounding hordes on 2s). That's not points efficient right now, but if they brought HF down to like 10, Repressors down to 90 with base armaments, and multimeltas to around 16, I could definitely see fielding one or two of them: 92 for repressor w/ dual SB, Rets 54 w/ 56 points of weapons so 200 total? I can see it. At its current price of 268 I can't.

Assuming the Repressor still exists in the new codex. They have been out of production for a while. GWs policy since 8th started has been to only have GW available models in the codex, other legacy stuff sticks with index rules. Sisters might be an exception due to them supposedly getting a whole new model line. But we have no guarantee that the Repressor is even going to be a Codex unit currently.

It's..... ForgeWorld. So I'm 99% certain this new codex with have zero bearing on the current form of the repressor. It might get a points tweak in CA, but it got bumped by 20 last year, so it probably won't happen again.

 deviantduck wrote:
It's..... ForgeWorld. So I'm 99% certain this new codex with have zero bearing on the current form of the repressor. It might get a points tweak in CA, but it got bumped by 20 last year, so it probably won't happen again.

It got bumped prior to Rule of 3, to curb meltaDom bombing. Now that they have disappeared competitively, and Knights are a thing, they wouldn't even have been viable at their previous cost (you would get ~8 meltas split between two Repressors for the cost of a Crusader). If we look at the points reduction of Trukks, we can assume that other cardboard boxes (transports which do not have any legitimate offensive output on their own) will be taking a price cut as well.

Ork FW stuff got a quick update to come in line with the new Dex if that means anything.

I'm all for it. I hope they bring back AoF for vehicles. Double shooting exorcists made them close to worth their points.

 deviantduck wrote:
I'm all for it. I hope they bring back AoF for vehicles. Double shooting exorcists made them close to worth their points.

That's because exorcists have less than half the firepower of their predator counterparts.

It was the same thing for a number of the index vehicles - hence double firing leman russes and buffs to other vehicles. The exorcist is just another index vehicle playing catch-up.

 deviantduck wrote:
I'm all for it. I hope they bring back AoF for vehicles. Double shooting exorcists made them close to worth their points.

While fluffy, it's bad design. AoF are a limited resource that will be balanced around what they can be applied to, and as a result the units which they can be applied to will be balanced around them being omnipresent, so if vehicles regain access to AoF, they will either be absolute garbage when AoF are not rationed to them (current Exorcist), or AoF will be nerfed into the ground. Further it would increase competition for AoF, leaving units which are pretty bad unless they receive AoF (HB Rets, Seraphim) on the bench if those AoF are devoted to artillery platforms.

If AoF remain infantry only, then they only need to balance around infantry, the limited pool does not need to spread as thin, and it would allow you to take a greater number of points (Celestine, an infantry unit, and a stable vehicle firebase) before AoF tax starts to kick in.

PuppetSoul wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
I'm all for it. I hope they bring back AoF for vehicles. Double shooting exorcists made them close to worth their points.

While fluffy, it's bad design. AoF are a limited resource that will be balanced around what they can be applied to, and as a result the units which they can be applied to will be balanced around them being omnipresent, so if vehicles regain access to AoF, they will either be absolute garbage when AoF are not rationed to them (current Exorcist), or AoF will be nerfed into the ground. Further it would increase competition for AoF, leaving units which are pretty bad unless they receive AoF (HB Rets, Seraphim) on the bench if those AoF are devoted to artillery platforms.

If AoF remain infantry only, then they only need to balance around infantry, the limited pool does not need to spread as thin, and it would allow you to take a greater number of points (Celestine, an infantry unit, and a stable vehicle firebase) before AoF tax starts to kick in.

I don't view it in the same light. As long as the units are balanced without the acts of faith, which they should be, and the AoF system doesn't change, I don't see it as an issue. Sure, it's terrible to have 2 AoF a turn and 10 units to use them on, but I'd like more choices. For instance, if my exos and doms are the same threat level, but 1 has AoF to boost it and the other doesn't, then they'll kill the doms first removing the unit with the potential bonus. I like having more tactical choices. I can't remember the last game I played where celestine and the seraphim didn't use all my AoF. Until the seraphim died and then you go, heh, now what gets it?

 deviantduck wrote:
I don't view it in the same light. As long as the units are balanced without the acts of faith, which they should be,

If they are, then the AoF system would need to be nerfed, because you are always going to put the AoF towards the unit that you have the most threat potential with, which can be roughly translated to getting a certain number of free points each turn. Right now AoF aren't a major concern, because unlike soulburst, they can't be used on 300+ point squads.

Acts of Faith break the action economy, which is an exceptionally thin tightrope between being acceptable and overpowered. For Ynnari, it's overpowered because they can use to gain 300+ "free points" every turn of doubleshooting or retreating to safety.

For Sisters, it's currently fine, because most of the units that would want to use it use it to move TO a target, and the most firepower you can consistently get out of one is four heavy bolters or four inferno pistols.

If Exorcists were on par with a LRBC's damage output baseline, then Acts of Faith would absolutely go to them first, and in turn those units would be mindlessly OP: Sisters would be in every list as an allied detachment of Celestine, two Imagifiers, and three Exorcists.

 deviantduck wrote:
I don't see it as an issue. Sure, it's terrible to have 2 AoF a turn and 10 units to use them on, but I'd like more choices. For instance, if my exos and doms are the same threat level, but 1 has AoF to boost it and the other doesn't, then they'll kill the doms first removing the unit with the potential bonus. I like having more tactical choices. I can't remember the last game I played where celestine and the seraphim didn't use all my AoF. Until the seraphim died and then you go, heh, now what gets it?

Your HB Rets, which are the next highest cost unit in your army which can doubleshoot.

It's not rocket science: you are always going to pick whatever unit has the highest "free-points-to-the-face" potential, and the reason you're left with a "now what gets it?" is because the remaining units provide so few free points when they receive the act that it's nearly inconsequential.

That's fine. If my opponent recognizes which pieces of my army to pick apart, does so, and leaves me with only a couple of generic BSS to use the acts on relatively ineffectively, they've outplayed me and they deserve to be rewarded.

I do not need a checklist of units to apply the AoF to in case my opponent can't completely table me on the first turn, and throwing an extra 6d6 LRBC shots across the board (if Exorcists are balanced agaisnt LRs before AoF, and you take 3 Exorcists), and you take a single Imagifier and go first would be absurd.

PuppetSoul wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
I don't view it in the same light. As long as the units are balanced without the acts of faith, which they should be,

If they are, then the AoF system would need to be nerfed, because you are always going to put the AoF towards the unit that you have the most threat potential with, which can be roughly translated to getting a certain number of free points each turn. Right now AoF aren't a major concern, because unlike soulburst, they can't be used on 300+ point squads.

Acts of Faith break the action economy, which is an exceptionally thin tightrope between being acceptable and overpowered. For Ynnari, it's overpowered because they can use to gain 300+ "free points" every turn of doubleshooting or retreating to safety.

For Sisters, it's currently fine, because most of the units that would want to use it use it to move TO a target, and the most firepower you can consistently get out of one is four heavy bolters or four inferno pistols.

If Exorcists were on par with a LRBC's damage output baseline, then Acts of Faith would absolutely go to them first, and in turn those units would be mindlessly OP: Sisters would be in every list as an allied detachment of Celestine, two Imagifiers, and three Exorcists.

 deviantduck wrote:
I don't see it as an issue. Sure, it's terrible to have 2 AoF a turn and 10 units to use them on, but I'd like more choices. For instance, if my exos and doms are the same threat level, but 1 has AoF to boost it and the other doesn't, then they'll kill the doms first removing the unit with the potential bonus. I like having more tactical choices. I can't remember the last game I played where celestine and the seraphim didn't use all my AoF. Until the seraphim died and then you go, heh, now what gets it?

Your HB Rets, which are the next highest cost unit in your army which can doubleshoot.

It's not rocket science: you are always going to pick whatever unit has the highest "free-points-to-the-face" potential, and the reason you're left with a "now what gets it?" is because the remaining units provide so few free points when they receive the act that it's nearly inconsequential.

That's fine. If my opponent recognizes which pieces of my army to pick apart, does so, and leaves me with only a couple of generic BSS to use the acts on relatively ineffectively, they've outplayed me and they deserve to be rewarded.

I do not need a checklist of units to apply the AoF to in case my opponent can't completely table me on the first turn, and throwing an extra 6d6 LRBC shots across the board (if Exorcists are balanced agaisnt LRs before AoF, and you take 3 Exorcists), and you take a single Imagifier and go first would be absurd.

Why would you make the Exorcist double shoot like the LRBC? It has 2 higher rend, that would be insane.

I think you're ignoring the fact that currently imagifiers are ungodly terrible. Being able to use them on vehicles would make them actually worth their points, because as it stands now if you're using one on a unit of Heavy Bolter Retributors, or bringing them for seraphim, you're wasting points AND CP. If they improve imagifiers, then yeah they can't also make AoF usable on Vehicles. As it stands now imagifiers are such doggak that it honestly doesn't make much of a difference. Having 2 only gives you a 75% chance at even getting a single extra AoF off in a turn.

Even your allied detachment is mediocre at best. You're spending 290pts to buff up a handful of tanks...maybe. There's so much variance in that setup that honestly, even doing average damage calcs is largely useless. You'll have turns where you'll do 27 damage and feel like a baller and turns where you blow a bunch of CP and still don't end up doing crap, all for the low low price of a knight Castellan. OH, and any kind of Invul save on a vehicle derails the exorcist pretty hard anyway, so better hope there aren't any of those wandering around. Finally, if you do get that magic first turn and if wasn't enough to cripple them outright, every 6 wounds an exocist takes massively reduces the value of the 290pts you invested to bring them.

Also, movement is much more powerful than you're giving it credit for. Being able to set up a unit of seraphim for big snipes on the first turn can often be far more useful than whatever bit of extra damage an extra Exorcist round would be, while ALSO helping to force your opponent to deal with the units in their face and making it more likely Exorcists go unmolested for turn 2. I once popped a banner of the emperor ascendent in the first turn with a Seraphim unit, which was a more valuable pull than anything I could have gotten double shooting MULTIPLE exorcists.

Basically you seem like you're tunnel visioning really hard on best case scenario, maximum damage output and that's not going to do much for you in games in the real world.

ERJAK wrote:
Why would you make the Exorcist double shoot like the LRBC? It has 2 higher rend, that would be insane.

Exorcists have d6 shots for 2 damage
Predators have d6 damage and 4 shots.

You could double shot it or bump the damage up to a flat 4 per shot and it still wouldn't have the firepower of its strength 9 counterpart. D6 missiles just aren't what they used to be.

ERJAK wrote:

Why would you make the Exorcist double shoot like the LRBC? It has 2 higher rend, that would be insane.

I was using the gun and rules of the LRBC. Not shot volume of LRBC with Exorcist Missiles' statline.

If we assume that double-firing LRBC on a T8 platform for around the same cost is balanced, then giving the Exorcist the LRBC should be fine.

Of course, allowing the LRBC to be double-double shot with Acts of Faith would be ridiculous.

ERJAK wrote:

I think you're ignoring the fact that currently imagifiers are ungodly terrible. Being able to use them on vehicles would make them actually worth their points, because as it stands now if you're using one on a unit of Heavy Bolter Retributors, or bringing them for seraphim, you're wasting points AND CP. If they improve imagifiers, then yeah they can't also make AoF usable on Vehicles. As it stands now imagifiers are such doggak that it honestly doesn't make much of a difference. Having 2 only gives you a 75% chance at even getting a single extra AoF off in a turn.

Your problem with the Imagifier is with what it is being used ON, not with the AoF or the Imagifier itself.

Think of them as being Ynnari psykers that can only cast Word of the Pheonix, but that do it without a repeat-limit or the ability for the opponent to deny, and which manifests on a 7.

If you put them in that context, they're perfectly fine.

Now, you don't have Shining Spears or Dark Reapers to use it ON, so it doesn't seem that impressive, but mechanically it's extremely powerful.

ERJAK wrote:

Even your allied detachment is mediocre at best. You're spending 290pts to buff up a handful of tanks...maybe. There's so much variance in that setup that honestly, even doing average damage calcs is largely useless. You'll have turns where you'll do 27 damage and feel like a baller and turns where you blow a bunch of CP and still don't end up doing crap, all for the low low price of a knight Castellan. OH, and any kind of Invul save on a vehicle derails the exorcist pretty hard anyway, so better hope there aren't any of those wandering around. Finally, if you do get that magic first turn and if wasn't enough to cripple them outright, every 6 wounds an exocist takes massively reduces the value of the 290pts you invested to bring them.

Again assuming that the Exorcist is competitive without AoF being spent on them, then you are paying 80 points to put a 2+, 4+ and 4+ potential AoF triggers into the three Exorcists, while Celestine fuels herself to run off and do Celestine things. Alternatively, instead of Celestine you could take a Canoness with two bolters and have her just stand there, using 125pts to prop up 500ish (assuming that Exorcists are bumped up in cost if they're going to be competitive with Helverins and LRBC Tank Commanders); getting the equivalent of ~350 points for 80, and another ~144 for 45. Ergo, a Canoness, Imag, Imag, Exor, Exor, Exor detachment would cost about 650-700, but be worth ~1100 and therefore be a mandatory ally detachment for Imperium armies.

ERJAK wrote:

Also, movement is much more powerful than you're giving it credit for. Being able to set up a unit of seraphim for big snipes on the first turn can often be far more useful than whatever bit of extra damage an extra Exorcist round would be, while ALSO helping to force your opponent to deal with the units in their face and making it more likely Exorcists go unmolested for turn 2. I once popped a banner of the emperor ascendent in the first turn with a Seraphim unit, which was a more valuable pull than anything I could have gotten double shooting MULTIPLE exorcists.

Basically you seem like you're tunnel visioning really hard on best case scenario, maximum damage output and that's not going to do much for you in games in the real world.

So what you're saying is you used the AoF on the unit with the highest threat potential at the time.

And yes, you have to balance things around their best-case scenario if their best-case scenario is what the average use-case would be in the competitive play.

PuppetSoul wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

Even your allied detachment is mediocre at best. You're spending 290pts to buff up a handful of tanks...maybe. There's so much variance in that setup that honestly, even doing average damage calcs is largely useless. You'll have turns where you'll do 27 damage and feel like a baller and turns where you blow a bunch of CP and still don't end up doing crap, all for the low low price of a knight Castellan. OH, and any kind of Invul save on a vehicle derails the exorcist pretty hard anyway, so better hope there aren't any of those wandering around. Finally, if you do get that magic first turn and if wasn't enough to cripple them outright, every 6 wounds an exocist takes massively reduces the value of the 290pts you invested to bring them.

Again assuming that the Exorcist is competitive without AoF being spent on them, then you are paying 80 points to put a 2+, 4+ and 4+ potential AoF triggers into the three Exorcists, while Celestine fuels herself to run off and do Celestine things. Alternatively, instead of Celestine you could take a Canoness with two bolters and have her just stand there, using 125pts to prop up 500ish (assuming that Exorcists are bumped up in cost if they're going to be competitive with Helverins and LRBC Tank Commanders); getting the equivalent of ~350 points for 80, and another ~144 for 45. Ergo, a Canoness, Imag, Imag, Exor, Exor, Exor detachment would cost about 650-700, but be worth ~1100 and therefore be a mandatory ally detachment for Imperium armies.

I've read this three times and I'm still not following the logic. The exo in its current form is over priced, or under powered, depending on your stance. If you up the damage, and then up the points, you're in the same exact situation. You can't point the exorcist based on the potential of another unit buffing it. It has to be in a vacuum on its own otherwise you end up rendering it useless on its own without the obligatroy force multiplier. On the other hand, the Imagifer needs to be pointed accordingly based on it's own rules, auras, and abilities and how it interacts with other units. To me, 40 points it's a tad high for a 4+. I think it should drop down to 30 or the ability go to 3+. It's also not fair to compare the Exo to a LRBT. They're just too different.

PuppetSoul wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

Why would you make the Exorcist double shoot like the LRBC? It has 2 higher rend, that would be insane.

I was using the gun and rules of the LRBC. Not shot volume of LRBC with Exorcist Missiles' statline.

If we assume that double-firing LRBC on a T8 platform for around the same cost is balanced, then giving the Exorcist the LRBC should be fine.

Of course, allowing the LRBC to be double-double shot with Acts of Faith would be ridiculous.

ERJAK wrote:

I think you're ignoring the fact that currently imagifiers are ungodly terrible. Being able to use them on vehicles would make them actually worth their points, because as it stands now if you're using one on a unit of Heavy Bolter Retributors, or bringing them for seraphim, you're wasting points AND CP. If they improve imagifiers, then yeah they can't also make AoF usable on Vehicles. As it stands now imagifiers are such doggak that it honestly doesn't make much of a difference. Having 2 only gives you a 75% chance at even getting a single extra AoF off in a turn.

Your problem with the Imagifier is with what it is being used ON, not with the AoF or the Imagifier itself.

Think of them as being Ynnari psykers that can only cast Word of the Pheonix, but that do it without a repeat-limit or the ability for the opponent to deny, and which manifests on a 7.

If you put them in that context, they're perfectly fine.

Now, you don't have Shining Spears or Dark Reapers to use it ON, so it doesn't seem that impressive, but mechanically it's extremely powerful.

ERJAK wrote:

Even your allied detachment is mediocre at best. You're spending 290pts to buff up a handful of tanks...maybe. There's so much variance in that setup that honestly, even doing average damage calcs is largely useless. You'll have turns where you'll do 27 damage and feel like a baller and turns where you blow a bunch of CP and still don't end up doing crap, all for the low low price of a knight Castellan. OH, and any kind of Invul save on a vehicle derails the exorcist pretty hard anyway, so better hope there aren't any of those wandering around. Finally, if you do get that magic first turn and if wasn't enough to cripple them outright, every 6 wounds an exocist takes massively reduces the value of the 290pts you invested to bring them.

Again assuming that the Exorcist is competitive without AoF being spent on them, then you are paying 80 points to put a 2+, 4+ and 4+ potential AoF triggers into the three Exorcists, while Celestine fuels herself to run off and do Celestine things. Alternatively, instead of Celestine you could take a Canoness with two bolters and have her just stand there, using 125pts to prop up 500ish (assuming that Exorcists are bumped up in cost if they're going to be competitive with Helverins and LRBC Tank Commanders); getting the equivalent of ~350 points for 80, and another ~144 for 45. Ergo, a Canoness, Imag, Imag, Exor, Exor, Exor detachment would cost about 650-700, but be worth ~1100 and therefore be a mandatory ally detachment for Imperium armies.

ERJAK wrote:

Also, movement is much more powerful than you're giving it credit for. Being able to set up a unit of seraphim for big snipes on the first turn can often be far more useful than whatever bit of extra damage an extra Exorcist round would be, while ALSO helping to force your opponent to deal with the units in their face and making it more likely Exorcists go unmolested for turn 2. I once popped a banner of the emperor ascendent in the first turn with a Seraphim unit, which was a more valuable pull than anything I could have gotten double shooting MULTIPLE exorcists.

Basically you seem like you're tunnel visioning really hard on best case scenario, maximum damage output and that's not going to do much for you in games in the real world.

So what you're saying is you used the AoF on the unit with the highest threat potential at the time.

And yes, you have to balance things around their best-case scenario if their best-case scenario is what the average use-case would be in the competitive play.

Spot on for the most part.

I dont have the energy to type all the numbers anymore.


But Ynnari and AoF are not the same, they are not equal,
AoF is only at the start of the turn, Ynnari is during the turn
AoF has limited units to use them on, limited good units, Ynnari has insane amount of good units to pick
SoB doesnt have DSing units, Ynnari does
SoB units can only be 10(other than BSS being 15), Ynnari can have 20+
SoB good units are still limited be weapon options, 5 at the most, Ynnari can have all models in a unit with special weapons
SoB has 0 Psychic support, Ynnari has many
SoB dont have many key weapons available to them (plasma, Haywire) Ynnari has all and more so (well other than Plasma but their equal is better)
SoB has limited Fly units, Ynnari has full armies worth


IMO SoB and AoF are good, but in context they are no Ynnari, SoB is more about flooding the field and able to do AoF easier and more often, but to less effect, where's Ynnari are less often but more pronounce when they do work.

If Crusaders, Celestian Squads, or another melee unit was actually good in melee, we would have better options.

 deviantduck wrote:
I've read this three times and I'm still not following the logic. The exo in its current form is over priced, or under powered, depending on your stance. If you up the damage, and then up the points, you're in the same exact situation. You can't point the exorcist based on the potential of another unit buffing it. It has to be in a vacuum on its own otherwise you end up rendering it useless on its own without the obligatroy force multiplier. On the other hand, the Imagifer needs to be pointed accordingly based on it's own rules, auras, and abilities and how it interacts with other units. To me, 40 points it's a tad high for a 4+. I think it should drop down to 30 or the ability go to 3+. It's also not fair to compare the Exo to a LRBT. They're just too different.

If we took the word Exorcist, slapped it onto a Helverin, and gave it Adepta Sororitas keyword, we'd have both upped it damage and its point cost, but it would solve the problem.

You can't expect the Exorcist to jump up and rival an LRBT, Helverin or Ravagers' shooting, and stay at 135pts. It's just not going to happen.

Exorcist and LRBT are very similar: both are T8, 3+, with 12 wounds. In the Index, they had similar damage output and cost. It wasn't until Codex IM that LRBT got Grinding Advance and doubled its damage output. If the Exorcist got Grinding Advance, it would operate almost exactly like a LRBT (sans the sponson and hull weapons).

And if that were the case, I would expect the Exorcist to go up to around 150pts.

I think the exorcist from index should have been flat 3dmg.

Doesn't matter what anyone thinks. Chapter approved by now has been printed and shipped to all nations. Or is in the process of, so no rules changes from a few months ago are gunna happen. It will be what it is. Tissue factory or humble prays saying "well it has been so long since a codex, we are blessed" will resound soon...

Chapter Approved Reveals are up, and lookie lookie...

Is that the symbols of the various orders on the left?

 Mr Morden wrote:
Is that the symbols of the various orders on the left?

Yes.

Also there is a rumor circulating that the old school Faith point system is coming back, sort of, the real question will be if the faith abilities are any good or not. It's gone both ways in the past, effective faith powers back in the old Witchhunters Codex, and a laughable farse with the 'White Dwarf Codex' that followed it. So we will see.

 Creeping Dementia wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Is that the symbols of the various orders on the left?

Yes.

Also there is a rumor circulating that the old school Faith point system is coming back, sort of, the real question will be if the faith abilities are any good or not. It's gone both ways in the past, effective faith powers back in the old Witchhunters Codex, and a laughable farse with the 'White Dwarf Codex' that followed it. So we will see.

They are good now - just don;t scale that well.

In two weeks faith powers will likely be completely different, with a completely different faith system, so doesn't really matter what the current ones are.

So far the only one I've heard of gives +3 to movement, or something like that (it was in French). Situational at best, and very different from the current movement boost we currently enjoy.

it was posted on B&C

New rumors from Faeit/French Wargamer: Listening to French Wargame Studio latest video (in French obviously), they dropped some info (sorry if those are known already).

They'll get Stratagems, Act of Faith (not as good as before but still useful, one example cited was no more double movement, but instead a +3" movement instead) and Chapter Traits.

It was also stated that Acts of Faith will have it's own pool of points/powers (determined by number of units/models) and you can use them as you please using that pool.

Also one Stratagem was hinted that some models/units can use their Flamers when they get deployed (from deepstrike I'd assume). No extra range but just allow them to flame their target on the way down or something.

seems dubious because of what seems like a botched reference to the seraphim strat we've seen previewed already. We'll find out in due course but it could very well be speculation and a combination of unfamiliarity with the faction as it exists at the moment.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/12/06/6th-dec-faction-focus-sisters-of-battlegw-homepage-post-1/


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Assuming points don't change. I have.... 6 or 7 faith points in my 2k. That Storm Bolter stratagem though.

 pretre wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/12/06/6th-dec-faction-focus-sisters-of-battlegw-homepage-post-1/


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Assuming points don't change. I have.... 6 or 7 faith points in my 2k. That Storm Bolter stratagem though.

Looking solid. My 2k Brigade has something like... hm.

2 for FA slots.
1 for HQs + Elites +1 HS slot
1 for other HS slots.
6 for Troops.

So 10? Faith Points. I just hope the "Tests of Faith" roles aren't too punishing. Having to spend one, then roll a 5+, then fail, sucks. I don't recall if the article mentioned whether or not you spend one if the roll fails, but if you do... womp. I saw there's an Army Trait to mitigate that, and I usually bring lots of Imagifiers/Dialoguses, but my girls are Argent Shroud minor order ladies, and the Argent Shroud trait isn't spoiled yet. Ebon Chalice strikes me as the real winner.

I'm giddy.

 pretre wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/12/06/6th-dec-faction-focus-sisters-of-battlegw-homepage-post-1/


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Assuming points don't change. I have.... 6 or 7 faith points in my 2k. That Storm Bolter stratagem though.

this one - mmm nice

Yes. Was just telling my playgroup that's probably where my CP is going. None of the other stratagems are anything other than situational.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So 10? Faith Points. I just hope the "Tests of Faith" roles aren't too punishing. Having to spend one, then roll a 5+, then fail, sucks. I don't recall if the article mentioned whether or not you spend one if the roll fails, but if you do... womp. I saw there's an Army Trait to mitigate that, and I usually bring lots of Imagifiers/Dialoguses, but my girls are Argent Shroud minor order ladies, and the Argent Shroud trait isn't spoiled yet. Ebon Chalice strikes me as the real winner.

You must run foot if you have 100 models.

And yeah, I remember when we switched to automatic faith checks, it was amazing. The old ones were roll for. That being said, Celestine had an automatic one and there was a relic for an automatic one.

We can probably guess that a Simulacrum will be back to adding +1 to faith rolls in an aura and Laud Hailers granting rerolls.

It's a brave new world, gents.

Already posted it to Reddit, but I'll add it here as well, because the new Faith system is disgusting.

I've created a Leafblower Sisters list, because of the way the new AoF system works.

AoF triggers at the beginning of the associated phase, so if you have a way to generate additional microphases of the correct type (ex- Burning Descent generates a shooting microphase), you can trigger AoF at the beginning of that phase. The trick is that you're not limited to the unit which generated the microphase, so if you target your Ebon Chalice Dialogus with the Shoot Twice act (which explicitly says it can be selected to shoot twice in that phase), it gets two shooting phases. Oh, and you gave it Book of Saint Timewalk as a relic. And then use Vessel of the Emperor's Timewalk on the success, and splash it out to your whole army.

Vessel doesn't have any targeting restrictions, so it gives vehicles Shoot Twice.

Tada, your whole army is shooting twice in the Seraphim's microphase.

So far, the most I've been able to get up to is 3 additional shooting phases (ergo every unit in the deathstar can be selected to shoot eight times in a turn). Although only 2 of those can be done on the first turn if you use the newer deepstrike beta rules.

Yeah, that's not going to happen. There's no such thing as a 'shooting microphase'.
Burning Descent, for example, says 'You can immediately shoot with that unit as if it were your shooting phase'. You never enter the Shooting Phase so there's no start of the shooting phase to use an act in.

Basically, even without a faq, I can't see any TO allowing that even if the RAI or RAW supported it, which it looks like it doesn't.

And where are you getting the Shoot Twice act? I haven't seen that posted yet.

PuppetSoul wrote:
Already posted it to Reddit, but I'll add it here as well, because the new Faith system is disgusting.

I've created a Leafblower Sisters list, because of the way the new AoF system works.

AoF triggers at the beginning of the associated phase, so if you have a way to generate additional microphases of the correct type (ex- Burning Descent generates a shooting microphase), you can trigger AoF at the beginning of that phase. The trick is that you're not limited to the unit which generated the microphase, so if you target your Ebon Chalice Dialogus with the Shoot Twice act (which explicitly says it can be selected to shoot twice in that phase), it gets two shooting phases. Oh, and you gave it Book of Saint Timewalk as a relic. And then use Vessel of the Emperor's Timewalk on the success, and splash it out to your whole army.

Vessel doesn't have any targeting restrictions, so it gives vehicles Shoot Twice.

Tada, your whole army is shooting twice in the Seraphim's microphase.

So far, the most I've been able to get up to is 3 additional shooting phases (ergo every unit in the deathstar can be selected to shoot eight times in a turn). Although only 2 of those can be done on the first turn if you use the newer deepstrike beta rules.

You know this isn't going to fly at any real competitive event right? Obviously unintended. No other army gets to shoot more than twice per turn and neither will sisters.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
You know this isn't going to fly at any real competitive event right? Obviously unintended. No other army gets to shoot more than twice per turn and neither will sisters.

I really don't even think we can count it as 'unintended'. It's really reaching.

If the Acts fo Faith is on a D6 then having them at 5+ is pretty rubbish - hopefully St C's reincarnate one is not that fething hard.

At the moment with only a few facts the AOF element seems to be a huge nerf, but the Stats the opposite

So you think that the thing other armies have to pay 3 CP for, to Fight Twice, Sisters should get on a 5+ on 2d6?

RrriiiiIIIIIGGHTt...

 pretre wrote:
Yeah, that's not going to happen. There's no such thing as a 'shooting microphase'.
Burning Descent, for example, says 'You can immediately shoot with that unit as if it were your shooting phase'. You never enter the Shooting Phase so there's no start of the shooting phase to use an act in.

Basically, even without a faq, I can't see any TO allowing that even if the RAI or RAW supported it, which it looks like it doesn't.

And where are you getting the Shoot Twice act? I haven't seen that posted yet.

Warhammer Community site released the SoB beta codex teaser today.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/12/06/6th-dec-faction-focus-sisters-of-battlegw-homepage-post-1/

 pretre wrote:
Yeah, that's not going to happen. There's no such thing as a 'shooting microphase'.
Burning Descent, for example, says 'You can immediately shoot with that unit as if it were your shooting phase'. You never enter the Shooting Phase so there's no start of the shooting phase to use an act in.

Basically, even without a faq, I can't see any TO allowing that even if the RAI or RAW supported it, which it looks like it doesn't.

And where are you getting the Shoot Twice act? I haven't seen that posted yet.

Shoot twice hasn't been posted yet.

The "as if it were your X phase" is the part that generates the microphase. That's how the original AoF and Vanguard move system works, in that Vanguard move can Advance instead of just moving, because the rule says "as if it were the movement phase" instead of just "may move 12" inches" like other scout moves.

It's also why stratagems like Take Cover, etc. can be used during current Acts of Faith: because "as if it were your shooting phase" means you and your opponent can use stratagems that can only be played during your shooting phase. And when that microphase ends, the stratagem ends, and does not carry over to other microphases, even if those microphases are also shooting phases, or to the "real" shooting phase.

So if it has an end, it must also have a beginning. When does it begin? In most cases, immediately after the dice resolved. We currently don't care that phases begin and skip defining that part, because we didn't have anything that triggered during them. Now we do.

 Frowbakk wrote:
So you think that the thing other armies have to pay 3 CP for, to Fight Twice, Sisters should get on a 5+ on 2d6?

RrriiiiIIIIIGGHTt...

It's on a D6, which makes Ebon Chalice basically mandatory given the strength of double-acting.

Vessel of the Emperor’s Will sounds amazing!

I play Horde sisters mostly, iw ill for sure being to have 7-8 AOF a turn without trying.

I still dont know if Penitent Engines will be worth it, it will come down to points, they are very very very easy to kill.

My only concern now is the points, are basic points going up for them? If the rumor is true that SM are going down a 1pt then i cant see why we would go up 1pt,

Also we dont know if AoF will work on vehicles, it might just flat out wont let us, cant wait to see if it does or doesnt b.c that will change how i play.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Vessel of the Emperor’s Will sounds amazing!

I play Horde sisters mostly, iw ill for sure being to have 7-8 AOF a turn without trying.

The AoF resources are generated by model count, and do not regenerate.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Also we dont know if AoF will work on vehicles, it might just flat out wont let us, cant wait to see if it does or doesnt b.c that will change how i play.

Vessel will splash to vehicles unless they FAQ it, because they're Ad Sororitas units, and it has no other targeting restrictions (doesn't care that the unit doesn't have Acts of Faith keyword).

PuppetSoul wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Vessel of the Emperor’s Will sounds amazing!

I play Horde sisters mostly, iw ill for sure being to have 7-8 AOF a turn without trying.

The AoF resources are generated by model count, and do not regenerate.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Also we dont know if AoF will work on vehicles, it might just flat out wont let us, cant wait to see if it does or doesnt b.c that will change how i play.

Vessel will splash to vehicles unless they FAQ it, because they're Ad Sororitas units, and it has no other targeting restrictions (doesn't care that the unit doesn't have Acts of Faith keyword).

I've seen a few post like this. Was there a tease i missed that told us how the Faith points were generated. (I only skimmed the tease today so I could very well missed it)

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/12/06/6th-dec-faction-focus-sisters-of-battlegw-homepage-post-1/?fbclid=IwAR25rVlOQdZ4ktXgcTEpj9sMw1QAMKuIDyFE2Msn3exEzxtAHkMSMDEPp0M

 Amishprn86 wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/12/06/6th-dec-faction-focus-sisters-of-battlegw-homepage-post-1/?fbclid=IwAR25rVlOQdZ4ktXgcTEpj9sMw1QAMKuIDyFE2Msn3exEzxtAHkMSMDEPp0M

So confirmed 1 per 10. But we have no idea how much they cost or if the points are only generated once per game. Even then most of my lists had 80+ sisters in it so a minimum 8 points and there sounds like theres at least 2 ways to get a +1 nor anything yet saying multiple units can't attempt the same AoF. I'd say in larger games it could very well be a side grade at worst.

We also dont know if HQ's will give more, if we can gain more during battle, what Elite characters will do,what other stratagems will there be, etc..

We will know in a couple weeks tho

 Tauris_Blazestar wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Yeah, that's not going to happen. There's no such thing as a 'shooting microphase'.
Burning Descent, for example, says 'You can immediately shoot with that unit as if it were your shooting phase'. You never enter the Shooting Phase so there's no start of the shooting phase to use an act in.

Basically, even without a faq, I can't see any TO allowing that even if the RAI or RAW supported it, which it looks like it doesn't.

And where are you getting the Shoot Twice act? I haven't seen that posted yet.

Warhammer Community site released the SoB beta codex teaser today.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/12/06/6th-dec-faction-focus-sisters-of-battlegw-homepage-post-1/

I know, I'm the one who posted it here. Shoot twice wasn't posted.

 Frowbakk wrote:
So you think that the thing other armies have to pay 3 CP for, to Fight Twice, Sisters should get on a 5+ on 2d6?

RrriiiiIIIIIGGHTt...

IF we only get 8-10 per game AND then have to roll 5+ to make a Act work - its not great esp if St C has to roll 5+ to stand up say.

Wat we don't know is if you get X Faith Points/10 models per battle or per turn or whatever and what Acts do apart from this one.

We also dont know how easy it is to get +1's or if we can get more AoF/AoF points other ways.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
We also dont know how easy it is to get +1's or if we can get more AoF/AoF points other ways.

If we go back to the old days, we'll have real martyrdom again. It used to be whenever a faith generating character died you got one back. This time, it might be 'gain a Faith point for every 10 models you lose'.

Still not quite enough info to tell if things are good or not. The acts of Faith seem good so far, just not really sure how easy it is to get them off. Old school faith you used to get another Faith point when a unit died, so maybe we'll be able to regenerate some. If faith powers continue to be great, and the roll for them is on a D6, then Ebon Chalice may be a definite auto take. Unless it's easy to get other ways to increase the faith rolls.

Strats are a mixed bag so far, don't know enough about relics or warlord traits yet either. I think things are going in the right direction, too many details left out. Excited to find out more though

Glad we finally see some stuff after suffering through days of Narrative play and Open play nonsense.

Not sure about penitents, their downfall has always been being unable to get into combat, not their damage output. Will really come down to cost and armor/invuln save. If they're cheap enough having a couple as a counter attack unit could be useful.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
We also dont know how easy it is to get +1's or if we can get more AoF/AoF points other ways.

Ebon Chalice faction trait is +1 to the roll.

It is mentioned that Dialogus and Simulacrum effect it in some way.

Since the Dialogus does not have legitimate weapons, it's very likely that it has either a +1 or reroll aura.

The Simulacrum will likely be the option the Dialogus isn't.

According to Bob on War of Sigmar, Faith Poitns are generated when you create your army list - so a list with 100 faithful models has an additional 10 Faith points to use for the entire game while a list with 47 has 4.

He also says the tests are on 1d6 and that there are only 3 ways to get +1. We know Ebon Chalice is one of those, the other two are likely Similacrums and Diagolus.

For the record, and as briefly as possible: Wooooooo!!

I almost don't care how playable anything is, I'm just glad to have All The Things.

For a slight shift of topic, it's clear that Ministorum units are in our Codex. There's a reference to "Canoness or Missionary" in terms of Warlord Traits and Relics. What are the odds they've lowered the barrier between factions? Will Priests and PEs run alongside Battle Sisters again?

Also, now that we've seen the new formation/detachment structure from the Vigilus material, any guess on whether we get one o f those right out of the gate?

We've seen the contents page, we're listed in the factions but i didn't see anything in the faction rules section that jumps out as being a section on sisters. So probably no. i could be wrong though.

Forces of the Adepta Sororitas ..... page 94
nothing stands out in the faction rules.
https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Screen-Shot-2018-12-03-at-17.43.02-e1543859122664.png

That's the ToC for Vigilus, not for CA2018

My point was that if we were to get a Vigilus style detachment, then we can rule it out of coming from that book rather than CA. Unlike Tau for example who weren't mentioned in Vigilus but are getting their Farsight bodyguard thing in CA, we were mentioned in Vigilus. Which kinda makes it unlikely, although still possible, that they might include it with the beta codex in CA.

It depends whether a detachment is a codex level feature going forward. I could see them using those to drive traffic to supplements and leaving them out of codices. They seem to be good, but not essential.

Just saw leaked points.
Flamers - 6
Heavy Flamers - 14
Combi-Flamer - 8
Combi-Melta - 15
Meltaguns - 14
Multi-Melta - 22
Eviscerator - 11
Inferno Pistol - 7
Plasma Pistol - 5

Repressor - 91 points

So with 2 Storm Bolters and a Heavy Flamer (AKA Factory Specifications) it's 109 points.

Adeptus Sororitas Beta Codex. Some background including on the sub-factions.On a quick flip through looks like... maybe 10 or 12 pages of datasheets. Rules for 6 Orders. Character for each Order is drawn from their founding Saint.

Our Martyred Lady - Each time a unit is destroyed, gain a Faith Point.

Faith Points - Get base 3 plus one for 10 models, used to activate Acts of Faith. Inspiration from Stratagems. 6 different Acts, need to roll above the Act's Devotion Value on 1D6. Ways to modify the roll. SImulacrum Imperialis, Sister Dialogous give bonuses. Order of the Ebon Chalice get a +1. No move before the movement phase, now there's an Act to increase movement.

14 Stratagems. Expect to expand for the final Codex, this is a starting mix basically.

Ministorum Priests now split into two datasheets: Missionaries (HQ) and Preachers (basically like the AM Priest).

4 HQ choices

Penitent Engines, arco-flaggents, Death Cult Assassins do not get Acts of Faith

All 6 Orders have Convictions, Warlord Traits, relics.

Covers existing range (so no new units except in cases where they have a model they can make it for, like the Priests above).

 Frowbakk wrote:
Repressor - 91 points

So with 2 Storm Bolters and a Heavy Flamer (AKA Factory Specifications) it's 109 points.

Yes. It dropped the 3 points from the HF reduction. For 121pts I'm only running double HF here on out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
pretre: Tell us more, you tease.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do you have the book in hand?

 deviantduck wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pretre: Tell us more, you tease.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do you have the book in hand?

It was from the twitch stream with the rules writer.

 pretre wrote:
Our Martyred Lady - Each time a unit is destroyed, gain a Faith Point.

Faith Points - Get base 3 plus one for 10 models...

I had a feeling the "additional Faith Point per 10 Sororitas models" would be tacked on to some base number.

Martyred Lady doesn't look half bad at all, I'm liking the internal balance, which to choose... Well which 3 to choose, good thing I have all 6!

So, I never paid attention to this but...
Can I run a detachment of +1 to faith checks and then a different painted detachment of +1 Faith when they die?

Have a suicide detachment and a detachment that does all the work?

Still waiting with bated breath for the Argent Shroud rules...

 pretre wrote:
need to roll above the Act's Devotion Value on 1D6.

Equal or above from the warhammer community article.

 pretre wrote:
So, I never paid attention to this but...
Can I run a detachment of +1 to faith checks and then a different painted detachment of +1 Faith when they die?

Have a suicide detachment and a detachment that does all the work?

If the faith pool is universal and all orders share the same AoF keyword (like they do now) I don't see why this wouldn't work to game the system. Make the units you know that will die first be faith generating for the more durable ones. It's similar to the CP and gaming that.

A Legend for the dim like me:
Order = Chapter
Conviction = Chapter Tactic
Act of Faith = IG Orders
Stratagem = Stratagem
Oranges =/= Apples

A.T. wrote:

 pretre wrote:
need to roll above the Act's Devotion Value on 1D6.

Equal or above from the warhammer community article.

They printed equal or above, and in the same article they said greater than like a sentence above, and in the warhammer tv thing earlier today they said higher. So it may not be 5+, it may be 6+.

We're seeing mostly rules so far, and Sisters aren't part of the big points leak earlier today... anyone have a sense if there are major price overhauls coming with this update?

Edit: Also, I have a little under 130 Sisters infantry (pic in my P&M blog), but rarely field more that 2/3rds at 2000 points. So I'm guessing that depending on keywords, I'll be around 10 Faith Points, give or take.

Purifying Tempest wrote:

A.T. wrote:

 pretre wrote:
need to roll above the Act's Devotion Value on 1D6.

Equal or above from the warhammer community article.

They printed equal or above, and in the same article they said greater than like a sentence above, and in the warhammer tv thing earlier today they said higher. So it may not be 5+, it may be 6+.

Highly unlikely. Forcing you to roll a 6 baseline to get the ability means it would be utterly worthless without dedicated buffing units. At least with a 5+ you can hail mary it every once in a while. At 6 you're basically relegating it to 'only when dedicating the entire army to it will you actually get to use this ability.' Also, with Arcos and Deathcults not getting AoF, they certainly wouldn't waste the 6+ AoF on The Passion.

ERJAK wrote:

Purifying Tempest wrote:

A.T. wrote:

 pretre wrote:
need to roll above the Act's Devotion Value on 1D6.

Equal or above from the warhammer community article.

They printed equal or above, and in the same article they said greater than like a sentence above, and in the warhammer tv thing earlier today they said higher. So it may not be 5+, it may be 6+.

Highly unlikely. Forcing you to roll a 6 baseline to get the ability means it would be utterly worthless without dedicated buffing units. At least with a 5+ you can hail mary it every once in a while. At 6 you're basically relegating it to 'only when dedicating the entire army to it will you actually get to use this ability.' Also, with Arcos and Deathcults not getting AoF, they certainly wouldn't waste the 6+ AoF on The Passion.

Idk that anyone is wasting Faith points on The Passion...

ERJAK wrote:
Highly unlikely. Forcing you to roll a 6 baseline to get the ability means it would be utterly worthless

I refer you to both of the sisters other special abilities :p

But we'll see soon enough.

So the full leaks are out now.

The army is a fething joke. Sisters got worse across the board. Celestine is worse than a standard space marine captain with powerfist/jumppack/stormshield, the Gemini are elites that you wouldn't take with a gun to your head, the new AoFs are fething awful. The entire codex revolves around using the AoFs but there's no point because they don't fething DO anything. We got no meaningful point reduction and the points we DID save get eaten up by Simulacrum Imperialis. The stratagems are gak, none of the units that were bad before got fixed, the CTs are all dedicated to either AoFs which, again are bad, or things the army isn't very good at. And thanks to how specific, limited, and pointless the AoFs ARE you never need more than 5 or 6 faith points per game anyway.

We are weaker than we were in the index. 100%.

I don't know that anyone is wasting faith points on any of the Acts of Faith and it's possible Sisters are actually worse than they were in the index.

There's a video review out of CA2018 already, 25 minutes long. As far as the six AoF:

Hand of the Emperor is now +3" of movement, tests on a 4+
Divine Guidance is now +1 to-hit, tests on a 4+
Spirit of the Martyr is unchanged, tests on a 3+
Light of the Emperor is a 3+ auto-pass Morale
Aegis of the Emperor gives you a 4++ against Mortal Wounds from Psychic powers on a 3+. Used at the start of the Psychic Phase.
Each AoF can only be used once a turn

Celestine's WARLORD trait now gives a Faith Point each turn on a 4+
Her Geminae are now an Elites choice and a separate unit.
Celestine lost a wound but now costs 160
Celestine can now only stand up where she died.
On the plus side, Celestine doesn't break convictions.
The Martyrdom Stratagem is now d3 Faith points when any of your units dies, or a flat 3 if it was a character
Similacrums are a unit upgrade that give +1 to Act of Faith rolls for 10pts.
Exorcists received no change.

Martyred Lady gives you a Faith point whenever one of your units with this conviction is destroyed.
Argent Shroud gives you a Faith point on a 4+ any time an Argent Shroud unit completely destroys an enemy unit
Sacred Rose never loses more than one unit from Morale tests and Overwatches on a 5+
There seems to be no indication that Ministorum units (not just Missionaries, Preachers and Jacobus) don't break Convictions and Sororitas detachments.

Outside of Celestine and the game-wide drop in points on special weapons, there's no indication of points drops on anything.

Edit: Per this video, Exorcist went to d6 wounds.

Yeah, it's all looking pretty bad. I'm normally one that tries to wait till some practice games get in, but I'm having a hard time finding silver linings here.

Faith in particular is disturbingly bad. Not only will I likely be getting less powers off than in the index, the powers you do get off just aren't very good anyway.

With Faith not being very useful, there isn't a point to building your army to get as many points as you can, and probably not much point in taking the half of Orders that affect faith. So Sacred Rose might be the way to go?

If these rumors are true, then the viablity of the Beta Codex comes down to Strats and the strength and cost of individual units, because the Sororitas unique mechanics aren't going to be helping much.

It doesnt seem like the guy doing the YouTube video ever read the Index sisters section, doesn't seem to have any idea how Sisters played before CA. I appreciate the video, but the commentary is a bit oblivious.

All changes that i thought would be made, we all knew Celestine was going to change and so would AoF, Ynnari most likely will change soon too.

AoF should be more of a buff and plentiful, honestly sounds more fun to me.

My only question is, can AoF effect vehicles?

Also Exorcist being D6 compare to D3 is a good buff, if its still 135pts, not as good as a predator, but i'm assuming they will get some stratagem, or a Specialist detachment for them.

Acts of Faith are basically free strategems with a die roll for success, not sure why everyone is complaining about them.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Acts of Faith are basically free strategems with a die roll for success, not sure why everyone is complaining about them.

Because they are just as limited as stratagems, but as you mentioned have a die roll for success.
They could've just given us the faith effects as stratagems, and have our army special rule be "you get 6 starting CP instead of 3" or something and it would have been better.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Acts of Faith are basically free strategems with a die roll for success, not sure why everyone is complaining about them.

Because Acts of Faith were the only thing propping up Sisters in the index and keeping them from being really really bad. Now Acts of Faith are less reliable, and far less useful.

Well with the ability to gain +1 and re-rolls on them, being a MSU army, so Brigades are going to be very cheap and easy for a sob army, idk if it actually will be a problem.

Im more excited about playing 5-6 Aof for a couple turns in a row then using the few left appose to 3 a turn at the most.

Also with the stratagem thats a huge amount of aofs we could be doing.

Sacred Rose sounds fun if you like blobs of 20 sisters.

It might be a good idea to start a new thread for the post-codex discussion and let this one die. Easier for people to figure out where the currently relevant posts start.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Acts of Faith are basically free strategems with a die roll for success, not sure why everyone is complaining about them.

So Imperial Guard Orders should work the same way then????

So our Convictions only work on Infantry - FFS.

Amishprn86 wrote:Well with the ability to gain +1 and re-rolls on them, being a MSU army, so Brigades are going to be very cheap and easy for a sob army, idk if it actually will be a problem.

Im more excited about playing 5-6 Aof for a couple turns in a row then using the few left appose to 3 a turn at the most.

Also with the stratagem thats a huge amount of aofs we could be doing.

Each act of faith can only be played once per turn. So you would be hard pressed to use all of them in a turn (not impossible though but it will be way less flashy than some might think).

John Prins wrote:Sacred Rose sounds fun if you like blobs of 20 sisters.

AFAIK we can't take any squad in blob of 20. 15 max on BSS.

Hmm trying to find positive things in this pile of gak

1. its a "beta" dex so it might be fixed
2. Celestine - although much worse, pops back up at the end of the phase so can't be shot any more that phase?
3. That one Strategem

errr thats about it?

The way things look right now with the Beta, Sisters are going to need to be less aggressive, more of a gunline without much long range weapons. Trying to Alpha Strike likely won't work as Seraphim and Celestine can't use faith to get downrange to support the Dom's anymore.

Sacred Rose seems like it will be the Order of choice. Overwatch bonus plus morale mitigation is much better than the 3 that give Faith point bonuses.

I wish Immolators (and Rhinos) we're like 20 points cheaper, really have a hard time spending 100 points on them.

My reaction to the Sisters Beta was to promptly order more Skyweavers

While the beta dex is a nerf, having lots of ways to buff shield of faith seems fun/silly
have a block of 3/4++ tanks or blob sisters and move it up the field.

Well....

 John Prins wrote:
Sacred Rose sounds fun if you like blobs of 20 sisters.

Can't take 20 in a squad.


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 Amishprn86 wrote:
Well with the ability to gain +1 and re-rolls on them, being a MSU army, so Brigades are going to be very cheap and easy for a sob army, idk if it actually will be a problem.

Im more excited about playing 5-6 Aof for a couple turns in a row then using the few left appose to 3 a turn at the most.

Also with the stratagem thats a huge amount of aofs we could be doing.

You'll be lucky to get 2 per turn and even then they won't do anything. They're still limited to one of each AoF PER TURN. In general you're going to end with unspent faith points A LOT.


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chaos0xomega wrote:
Acts of Faith are basically free strategems with a die roll for success, not sure why everyone is complaining about them.

They're not even as good as the worst stratagems in the game. They also absorbed most of the actual stratagems sisters get to populate these useless 'bonuses'.


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 Amishprn86 wrote:
All changes that i thought would be made, we all knew Celestine was going to change and so would AoF, Ynnari most likely will change soon too.

AoF should be more of a buff and plentiful, honestly sounds more fun to me.

My only question is, can AoF effect vehicles?

Also Exorcist being D6 compare to D3 is a good buff, if its still 135pts, not as good as a predator, but i'm assuming they will get some stratagem, or a Specialist detachment for them.

AoF's are still limited to once per turn and are so incredibly weak they might as well not even exist. The only way AoFs can affect SOME of our vehicles is through Vessels.

Celestine is worse than a standard Jumpack SM captain. The D6 damage means that they're still worst than a leman russ with no sponsons BEFORE they double shoot. It's been 125 points for them. They aren't as good as a predator and the only stratagem they get access to is Vessels of the Emperor, which means they spend 3 CP to get a 50% chance of getting +1 to hit.

There is literally nothing to salvage here.

Yes they are limited, but i can still use all 6 each turn. Tho the heal wont be used if i go 1st and most likely the No moral wont be used much either, tho i do use 10 girl units so it will still be usable.

Also i think you are under estimating how easy they will be to use.
For me everygame turn 1 i will use the stratagem to use 3 AOF without rolling for 3CP, there is no reason not too. As i play a Brigade+other detachments, normally have 16-17 CP.
I also only said other tanks are better than the Exorcist, and i said i want to see if AoF will effect them or if they will get a specialist detachment rule for them before i said they are not playable.



Well i'm going to be play testing it like crazy to see how they are, i might even take it to a local tournament (IDK i only have 3 weeks to get ready for it, i might not be bale to).

Until we play it and test somethings out (Even with Allies) you wont know the power of it. It could just be there is a gem in there (Doms +1 to hit re-rolling 1's with stratagem and some other unit like Seraphim moving faster and cheaper, with canoness and celestine outrider to play friends with SM's)

Its the edition of soup, like it or not, everything is being balance for allies.

I've always felt to be a sister's player is to be always given the short end of the stick. With that said I've always taken pride in making what limited tools we had to work. I'd rather start to plan and to play and to do my personal best with what little that has always been given to us.

Then we can politely and respectfully let GW know our feedback.

I love this army and have been playing it for a decade and it's always been a bit of a uphill battle. Nothing is going to stop me from enjoying my Sisters of Battle

I don't think the sky has fallen, but things are defiantly different and not really in what I would call a finished form. GW is attempting to give a more scalable and less powerful Acts of Faith, but have missed a bit on both sides.

Scalability: The attempt to better scale Acts of Faith is a bit of a miss. 3 + 1 per 10 Models ends up being really close to the old rules of one at a 2+ and a second at a 4+ if you took and Imagifer (5 + 3 = 8 over a 6 turn game). Celestine's auto Act of Faith is downgraded to her new Warlord Trait of 1 Faith Point per turn on a 4+ (3 over a 6 turn game). Finally, they have a Stratagem to purchase an AOF per turn and the Martyrdom Stratagem to gain d3 more when a character is killed. Basically, if they want to give us "more" with a bigger army, they need to give us more. Otherwise, we only get more by expending CP to get them.

Impact: We are given, for the most part, less impactful AOF under the Beta Codex. This would be fine expect for two problems. First should be able to use more if any one has less impact. Second, we should be able to reliable use what we get, not have to roll a die and pray it works. That being said, the new Acts of Faith are about as powerful as basic Stratagems (except Hand of the Emperor is trash compared to most movement powers).

So I'm thinking we need to actually play some games rather than armchair game design and then get back to to them with solid comments. Do have to wonder why they just didn't make Acts of Faith Stratagems and then give "Faith Points" as extra CP that can only be used on Acts of Faith Stratagems?

Well said. Of course we need to get games in. Part of that is building lists though and anticipating how the list will perform.

I agree that the core issues are:
1) faith powers just don't seem that effective. This also hurts our strats as a good chunk of them affect faith points. So if faith points don't matter much, then those Strats don't matter either.
2) not very reliable faith power
3) only being able to use each once per turn eliminates any other attempts at scalability. You can start the game with 13 Faith points but if you end the game with your 13 points having about the same effect on the outcome as my 7 Faith points, then scalability has failed.

After a few beta, see if they are actually really weak (AoF's) for sure we need to do some BatReps without the limitation of "Once per turn" and see how it is.

Remember its beta, it can change, but we need good games and write ups to really encourage changes.

If GW is seriously going to look at our feedback then id rather things be underpowered than overpowered, it can only only go up from here.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
After a few beta, see if they are actually really weak (AoF's) for sure we need to do some BatReps without the limitation of "Once per turn" and see how it is.

Remember its beta, it can change, but we need good games and write ups to really encourage changes.

I did a thought exercise for this:

Imagine every unit in the army that can get AoF, got every buff, from all 6 Acts of Faith every turn. What kind of impact would that have on the army? Then add the restrictions back in.

Well, permanent +3 movement would be a decent buff. We'd be around the same speed on foot as Eldar. Useful, strong even. But not incredible.
The 4++ against Psyker wounds would probably be the biggest improvement. Devastating against psychic armies.
+1 to hit with all shooting weapons would be solid. Exorcists would still be iffy, but the extra weight of fire would be worth a lot. Very strong.
Immune to Morale: Not a huge deal, to be honest. Sisters are generally better as MSU, especially in the new book. It'll help occasionally but isn't that much of a gain.
Being able to constantly pile in and attack twice would be strong. Repentia and Canonesses would see a lot of combat. Celestine would be worth 160pts. Nice bonus, though not game breaking.
Resurrect one dead model per turn. Your opponent probably wouldn't leave this one to chance, same as people do with Necrons. Still, fairly strong.

Even having all 6 on every unit all game...it still doesn't feel like they'd be broken, to be honest? Like, they're good, but I'm still not really scared of that army. Better survivability, better offense, a moderate bonus to mobility. I'd say at that point they'd probably be close to where knight Castellan lists are. They'd need a nerf, but it would be small and likely wouldn't affect things like Seraphim or Celestians.

Now add Faith points in. Right there, I'd say it was fair. The average 2k SoB army will probably have 12-15 points with OoOML. We already hit on 3+ so it's not like stacking +1 to hit helps us much. The Passion and the Healing/Resurrection ability would need to be limited to one per unit but that would be it. I would call it a fair system right there. Vessels would be a good way to for skilled player to maximize their Faith points, but would be costly at 3 CP.

Limit each ability to once per turn and now...it's honestly not that great. You probably won't use all the points you have over the course of a game, and getting +1 on a unit is pretty meh. Vessels will do SOME heavy lifting here, but you'll never use it on about half of the AoFs. The system at this point, seems pretty tacked on and like you're really not losing much just ignoring it.

Adding a die-roll makes it feel bad. Making it so that if you fail the Die roll you can't pay another point to try again makes it feel WAY worse and means you're definitely ending just about every game with extra Faith points.Vessels is a 2CP Strat AT BEST here.

TL: DR: If they want to continue to use this system, get rid of the Once per turn limit, the die-roll, or both. If they want to keep it like it is, they need WAY stronger AoFs for anyone to care about them.


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 alextroy wrote:
I don't think the sky has fallen, but things are defiantly different and not really in what I would call a finished form. GW is attempting to give a more scalable and less powerful Acts of Faith, but have missed a bit on both sides.

Scalability: The attempt to better scale Acts of Faith is a bit of a miss. 3 + 1 per 10 Models ends up being really close to the old rules of one at a 2+ and a second at a 4+ if you took and Imagifer (5 + 3 = 8 over a 6 turn game). Celestine's auto Act of Faith is downgraded to her new Warlord Trait of 1 Faith Point per turn on a 4+ (3 over a 6 turn game). Finally, they have a Stratagem to purchase an AOF per turn and the Martyrdom Stratagem to gain d3 more when a character is killed. Basically, if they want to give us "more" with a bigger army, they need to give us more. Otherwise, we only get more by expending CP to get them.

Impact: We are given, for the most part, less impactful AOF under the Beta Codex. This would be fine expect for two problems. First should be able to use more if any one has less impact. Second, we should be able to reliable use what we get, not have to roll a die and pray it works. That being said, the new Acts of Faith are about as powerful as basic Stratagems (except Hand of the Emperor is trash compared to most movement powers).

So I'm thinking we need to actually play some games rather than armchair game design and then get back to to them with solid comments. Do have to wonder why they just didn't make Acts of Faith Stratagems and then give "Faith Points" as extra CP that can only be used on Acts of Faith Stratagems?

I'd like to add that one of the major problems the people who HAVE tried test games with the book are running into(there haven't been many, but there have been some), is that they have large amounts of leftover Faith points after they lose(because that't been the result mostly).

I don't mind rolling for faith to go off, but the acts have to be worth it. I liked the over/under rolls we used to have to do in the Witchhunter codex. Defensive powers you'd have to roll over your squad size, offensive powers you'd have to roll under your squad size. And it was worth adjusting your list so you could maximize your chances of getting the powers off because the powers were good.

To be honest, if they just ripped the acts of Faith pages out of the Witchhunter codex and glued them into the Sisters Codex I'd be ok with it.

So, looking at the new stuff I'm thinking about a list with 3-4 15 lady bss squads, with celestine and the bonus invul warlord trait on a cannoness, all with the order that gives 5+ overwatch and only losing 1 to morale and have that be a big hard to kill blob at the core of a list.
At a minimum its about 650 points for a fairly tough blob that will make anyone assaulting it miserable. Add in some long range firesupport and I think it could do well at board control.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Yes they are limited, but i can still use all 6 each turn. Tho the heal wont be used if i go 1st and most likely the No moral wont be used much either, tho i do use 10 girl units so it will still be usable.

Also i think you are under estimating how easy they will be to use.
For me everygame turn 1 i will use the stratagem to use 3 AOF without rolling for 3CP, there is no reason not too. As i play a Brigade+other detachments, normally have 16-17 CP.
I also only said other tanks are better than the Exorcist, and i said i want to see if AoF will effect them or if they will get a specialist detachment rule for them before i said they are not playable.



Well i'm going to be play testing it like crazy to see how they are, i might even take it to a local tournament (IDK i only have 3 weeks to get ready for it, i might not be bale to).

Until we play it and test somethings out (Even with Allies) you wont know the power of it. It could just be there is a gem in there (Doms +1 to hit re-rolling 1's with stratagem and some other unit like Seraphim moving faster and cheaper, with canoness and celestine outrider to play friends with SM's)

Its the edition of soup, like it or not, everything is being balance for allies.

In order:
No you can't. 3 of them depend on what your opponent does. One of them is melee. The morale one almost no one will ever use because large squads are even worse now than they were before.

Even using all 6 each turn, the net bonus is ultimately very very small. The AoFs are not good. Did you notice that the Flamer army got +1 to hit instead of to wound? They clearly didn't care here.

That's not the stratagem. You have to succeed FIRST and THEN use 3cp to do...whatever. None of the acts of faith are powerful enough to be worth 3 CP when you can just use it on a knight Castellant instead. I also think you're underestimating how much CP that setup will eat through. You're looking at 4CP per turn for the shooting AoF (3 for Vessels 1 for rerol wounds of 1). If you want to save multiple units with the morale thing? 3 more CP. Want more than 1 model back in a turn? 3 CP. Want more than one unit to move 3"? 3CP. Want more than one unit to fight in one turn? 3CP.

You could burn through all 18 of your CP in 1 turn and the net gain would be less than what other armies get with their character auras.

There's no 'wait and see' left. Both books are out in the wild.

Exorcists do NOT get a specialized detachment rule and can ONLY be affect by an AoF when Vessels is used within 6" of them. Even being the only thing in the book that got buffed, they're still not as good as the other army's tanks WITH +1 to hit.

You can know a rough approximation of 'better/worse' off of mathhammer. It's clearly overall worse. Dominions are the one saving grace of the book, but thanks to how the AoF system works, you'll never get more than 1 of them with an AoF. And that will only be on a 3+ because the Simlacrum is TWENTY points between the extra sister and the upgrade itself.

The seraphim thing you suggest require you to take seraphim AND Celestine, both of which are massively overpriced.

Even when it TRIES to be better it's worse.

I would like them to try an balance us for anything. Currently, you would never even consider taking SoB allies. Guard and Marines are better at everything we can do, now.


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StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:
So, looking at the new stuff I'm thinking about a list with 3-4 15 lady bss squads, with celestine and the bonus invul warlord trait on a cannoness, all with the order that gives 5+ overwatch and only losing 1 to morale and have that be a big hard to kill blob at the core of a list.
At a minimum its about 650 points for a fairly tough blob that will make anyone assaulting it miserable. Add in some long range firesupport and I think it could do well at board control.

Until they realize you're T3 and just kill you with bolters. Also, we could do that list better before and it wasn't very good then either.

I feel like GW is playing it safely down the middle here guys. GW is redesigning the entire line, why on earth wouldn't they take this opportunity to make completely new units. Similar, but different if you follow.

It's like when they redesigned my necrons or DE, the core infantry stayed the same. HQ's, troops some vehicles but they completely redid some stuff. Mandrakes, incubi, beasts, grotesques, talos an scourge were all previously in the book but were altered. Nobody cared because the line was dead at the point they finally redid it, same with necrons btw.

I feel like this beta was never meant to attract new players, meaning they don't want it to function well, just function enough to appease older players for a time. Keep them distracted. I mean, whats the point in hammering out the rules based on the current line? Does anyone here really expect or want them to stay stuck on the current stuff? Or is it likely for example that Seraphim will be a duel kit and you can make them with the current load out, or maybe all armed with evicerators or duel chainswords or fill in the blank. Same with the immolator and exorcist, surely they will be a duel kit. I am surethey will make entirely new units for elites and fast attack as well. Who wouldn't want jetbike sisters or terminator equivalents over celestians and dominions.

Not saying you guys don't have reason to be a bit upset, this book is boring from the leaks. The sisters are decent for their cost and still have an amazing transport and hey the exorcist is crazy good for 125, but yea the fluffy stuff is all kind of meh.

I would imagine they are more focused on play testing brand new units for the eventual relaunch. There is no way they are just replacing models from this beta dex. In fact I'd be surprised if a lot of stuff isn't entirely rearmed to kick all the counterfeit designers in the teeth. It sucks to say it, but I think the best thing to do is enjoy it for what it is until they get their actual book. I bet the doctrines and acts of faith were all made bland so when the new book hits and they roll out the actual rules, everyone can feel like they contributed during this year long distraction. There is no way GW is going to filter through all the design requests people make around the globe in X amount of languages lol.

I am not usually a tin foil hat guy but if you step back and think about this, it's really strange to be beta testing rules for 20 year old models. I am sure things like bolt, flamer and melta weapons will all stay, but you never know what they could add. Heck, they could easily get a dreadnought like model (not the penitent engines but a real sarcophagus) or they might get cheap chaf units like religious pilgrims or what not lol.

No point in arguing till we have play tested it honestly.

Also i was stating you can use all the AoF, its not that hard.

ALso this is VERY strong https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/CASistersofBattle-Dec6-Vessel-50kx.jpg

yes you test for it 1st, but with at least a +1 (easily +2 from what i have seen) and re-rolls, it wont be that hard to past, but it lets you character and ALL FRIENDLY units, that means you can use that 1 to effect everyone, you have 3 Rets and 3 Doms? use +1 to hit, you have 3 Seraphim and other fast moving units, use +3" movement.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
No point in arguing till we have play tested it honestly.

Also i was stating you can use all the AoF, its not that hard.

ALso this is VERY strong https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/CASistersofBattle-Dec6-Vessel-50kx.jpg

yes you test for it 1st, but with at least a +1 (easily +2 from what i have seen) and re-rolls, it wont be that hard to past, but it lets you character and ALL FRIENDLY units, that means you can use that 1 to effect everyone, you have 3 Rets and 3 Doms? use +1 to hit, you have 3 Seraphim and other fast moving units, use +3" movement.

Yea that's a good solution but you need to basically design your army around it. I think that's why folks are not thrilled. It's like I was saying, they are not by any means bad (as a guy looking to start sisters with fresh eyes), but they are definitely a bit boring. Generally I think folks get most excited for their doctrines and then the associated stratagems, they didn't even bother adding in the six unique stratagems one would expect. Part of the reason why I think this was definitely a stop gap and they are actually play testing other stuff.

So, my silver lining - there's a Warlord trait for our back line Canoness.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
No point in arguing till we have play tested it honestly.

Also i was stating you can use all the AoF, its not that hard.

ALso this is VERY strong https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/CASistersofBattle-Dec6-Vessel-50kx.jpg

yes you test for it 1st, but with at least a +1 (easily +2 from what i have seen) and re-rolls, it wont be that hard to past, but it lets you character and ALL FRIENDLY units, that means you can use that 1 to effect everyone, you have 3 Rets and 3 Doms? use +1 to hit, you have 3 Seraphim and other fast moving units, use +3" movement.

Yea that's a good solution but you need to basically design your army around it. I think that's why folks are not thrilled. It's like I was saying, they are not by any means bad (as a guy looking to start sisters with fresh eyes), but they are definitely a bit boring. Generally I think folks get most excited for their doctrines and then the associated stratagems, they didn't even bother adding in the six unique stratagems one would expect. Part of the reason why I think this was definitely a stop gap and they are actually play testing other stuff.

They probably are testing other stuff, but I expect they'll be looking to use the stuff they publish in CA as a basis for their design for SoB. That's why the feedback is important to create and send to GW.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
No point in arguing till we have play tested it honestly.

Also i was stating you can use all the AoF, its not that hard.

ALso this is VERY strong https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/CASistersofBattle-Dec6-Vessel-50kx.jpg

yes you test for it 1st, but with at least a +1 (easily +2 from what i have seen) and re-rolls, it wont be that hard to past, but it lets you character and ALL FRIENDLY units, that means you can use that 1 to effect everyone, you have 3 Rets and 3 Doms? use +1 to hit, you have 3 Seraphim and other fast moving units, use +3" movement.

I guarantee Vessel will be FAQd to read all other SoB units with AoF within 6". They'll get that at the 2 week mark.

I hate that I'll have to treat Celestine with kid gloves now. My favorite thing about her was that you could play her with reckless abandon because when she dies you get to reset and try again. But, she's as slow as everything else so she won't be any fun until turn 2 or 3 now.

I also can't believe we didn't get a deepstrike/outflank strat like every other army for 1cp.

Thats something i wanted for SOB for a long time, to DS.

I dont think they want SoB DSing in any shape or form sadly.

I set up a few test games with a couple friends today, mainly want to see how the new Dex holds up, and my friends was to try a couple lists with the new CA point changes. If we have enough time I should play against Ultras w/ bobby G, a Knight/Guard/Custodes list, Orks, and I might get a buddy to run my other army against me too Harlequins/Drukhari. To make sure its a realistic test of the Beta codex I won't be running Allies or Repressors (my index Sisters list included an Assassin Detatchment), just straight Sisters today. I'll try to give brief summaries later on today/tonight, gotta start collecting data.

Sounds great, I'll look forward to those. Has it been confirmed that Celestine, Exorcist, and the common wargear are the only points modifications?

The codex feels a bit lacklustre. Especially in the choices departement. I'm confident, that they will expand into new unit/roles for the real codex.

The problem with that tho is that we are playtesting an incomplete codex. Just one more unit with a specific role can change massively the strength and how a codex is played.

So an interesting question for the beta codex is: What (unit) is missing to make the codex more complete without losing its Sister of Battle character in giving it "every" option there could be?
- A second troop unit.
- "Shieldmaidens" Units with big shields, high defense (still T3) and some kind of protect others ability?
- "Archangels" Elite CC units with wings and flaming swords? Only 1 attack but each attack hits every model in contact?
- "Witchunters" armed with holy crossbows. Deal extra damage to psykers and demons. (may be a bit unfair to specially get a bonus against demons).

What are your opinions on this? Which slots or army functionality needs some love?

 MacPhail wrote:
Sounds great, I'll look forward to those. Has it been confirmed that Celestine, Exorcist, and the common wargear are the only points modifications?

crusaders -2
dialogus +15 (+1 to faith test in an aura)
geminae -4 (but as to buy its weapons I guess so same price)
priest -> preacher -10 (dunno what's different)
repentia -2
exorcist -10
penitent Engine +17
celestine -40
jacobus -50 (dunno what changed there too)
-----
combi melta -2
combi flamer -3
combi plasma -4
meltagun -3
flamer -3
immolation flamer -5
heavy flamer -3
multimelta -5
twin multimelta -14
plasma pistol -2
inferno pistol -2
Hand flamers are D6 hits now and same price
-----
Neural whips -3 (free)
Penitent buzz-blades -40 (free)
-----
simulacrum imperialis is a 10 points option


And it looks like we lost a few options (might have missed a few but eviscerators and power axes are out of the point values)

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/768006.page#10262802

let's move over there.

Locking for a fresh start.