Canoness [4 PL, 56pts]: 1. Legendary Fighter, Blade of Admonition, Plasma pistol, Power sword, Warlord
Canoness [4 PL, 60pts]: Boltgun, Combi-plasma
+ Troops +
Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 51pts] . 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter
Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 74pts] . 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Flamer
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Flamer
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Combi-flamer
Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 51pts] . 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter
+ Elites +
Imagifier [2 PL, 40pts]
Imagifier [2 PL, 40pts]
Imagifier [2 PL, 40pts]
+ Heavy Support +
Retributor Squad [5 PL, 85pts] . Retributor Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
Retributor Squad [5 PL, 85pts] . Retributor Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
This is one list I've been thinking about running recently, still compliant with the new FAQ.
I'm also considering dropping the flamer Dom's and their Repressor and an imagifier to make room for an Assassin Vanguard of a Callidus, Eversor, and Culexus.
Any thoughts? I'm still in the assembling/painting stages and haven't played much since 5th Ed and want to know if I'm spinning my wheels here.
Spectral Ceramite wrote: Im gunna be more safe than sorry and paint up everything else I have about SoB next year. I just pack them all away nicely so will be there this time next year . Now to my Necromunda terrain and warbands.
I mean, if you're going to do that, just sell them off at the high point and get new plastic sisters next year.
Canoness [4 PL, 56pts]: 1. Legendary Fighter, Blade of Admonition, Plasma pistol, Power sword, Warlord
Canoness [4 PL, 60pts]: Boltgun, Combi-plasma
+ Troops +
Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 51pts] . 2x Battle Sister . Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter . Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter . Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter
Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 74pts] . 2x Battle Sister . Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Flamer . Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Flamer . Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Combi-flamer
Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 51pts] . 2x Battle Sister . Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter . Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter . Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter
+ Elites +
Imagifier [2 PL, 40pts]
Imagifier [2 PL, 40pts]
Imagifier [2 PL, 40pts]
+ Heavy Support +
Retributor Squad [5 PL, 85pts] . Retributor Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun . Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter . Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter . Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter . Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
Retributor Squad [5 PL, 85pts] . Retributor Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun . Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter . Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter . Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter . Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
This is one list I've been thinking about running recently, still compliant with the new FAQ. I'm also considering dropping the flamer Dom's and their Repressor and an imagifier to make room for an Assassin Vanguard of a Callidus, Eversor, and Culexus. Any thoughts? I'm still in the assembling/painting stages and haven't played much since 5th Ed and want to know if I'm spinning my wheels here.
I think that's pretty solid. I would probably drop the flamer doms or upgrade to melta doms. I like the idea of the Callidus, Eversor and Culexus. I'd get more Seraphim, if you can find the points.
ERJAK wrote:I'm not going to go through all of this to explain exactly where your thinking is wrong, because frankly I don't have time in my day, I'll just hit the high points.
Fortunately I have plenty of time in my day, so let's do this (but behind the spoiler because nobody else cares to have huge textwall quote crap clogging up the thread).
Spoiler:
If you don't kill the mawlocs, they'll charge and you can't shoot, celestine takes 2 turns to kill one, plus I already said it's more efficient to go after mawlocs so you're just repeating MY point.
I said this about Mawlocs in my first response here, IIRC. My original position was, and remains, that everything in a Flyrant spam army is a better target for Celestine than the Flyrants themselves - particularly the Mawlocs, because Celestine can kill them in CC so you can use your Meltaguns on the Flyrants instead of wasting them on these relatively unimportant one-and-dones that will nevertheless cause problems if left to their own devices.
You, on the other hand, think feeding Celestine to a Flyrant is an action of equivalent value to charging her at a Mawloc. You said as much here...
I never once said 'the best thing for celestine is to charge flyrants!' I said 'it's not a terrible thing to charge flyrants because of how weak most of the other options are.'
Literally everything in a Flyrant list is a better target for Celestine than the only model in the army that's actually capable of killing her in close combat. Especially when such armies have so many copies of that model that they can dump one into combat with Celestine and not dent their ability to boss the game.
Yes, all of that stuff you said about their attack profile is included(except the tail, missed that one)
Wouldn't be the first time, eh? Not the last either, as we shall see.
in my 'they kill 1 gemini on average', including the tail, you're looking at 2 dead gemini, you're giving stats without doing the math on it AND ignoring that they'll wound degrade at the end of the second turn they fight celestine on average.
Ah yes, the old "Dakka Shuffle". "You didn't do the math!", they cry. My response to this pish is pro forma by this point; we're talking about elementary probability calculations here. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect people to be able to look at numbers on a Datasheet and intuit how a scenario might play out.
On bare numbers Celestine will struggle to take out a Flyrant quickly - and likewise the Flyrant isn't going to fold Celestine quickly either, but sooner or later the hit on 2 wound on 2 D3 damage is going to start to win out. That's bare numbers, remember. Once the Flyrant starts pulling out stuff like Catalyst/ Leviathan Adaption saves, psychic powers, and the Rapid Regeneration strat, Celestine's going to get overmatched in short order.
It's just a massive quagmire that's better off avoided.
RE Mucolids. Mucolids do whatever you want or need them to do, plus if you kill the Rippers he has a bunch of single-model units and no ObSec. If you do it early he'll have to table you to win any objective-based missions.
list like this have 3 biovores max, might be worth the 2 turns it'll take to reach them, but probably not.
Mucolids are bad because they can pump Mortal Wounds into Celestine from 15" away on a good day, and can only do it once. Biovores cost 6pts more, can pump exactly the same amount of Mortal Wounds into Celestine from 48" away, and create Spore Mines when they miss - but they're not worth the effort.
... please explain me. I don't even.
There are 6 flyrants, Celestine boxing out 1 isn't going to mean you're suddenly hurting for targets.
As already established, Celestine is unlikely to box out one, let alone 6.
The biggest thing you're missing though, is time. You are not going to have a lot of time before they do enough damage to kill everything. If you don't neuter the flyrant shooting early your entire army is going to be dead by turn 3.
I agree (to an extent) - but Celestine isn't capable of neutering it and is best expended elsewhere.
BBAP wrote: Fortunately I have plenty of time in my day, so let's do this (but behind the spoiler because nobody else cares to have huge textwall quote crap clogging up the thread).
I've given all my pure Sisters lists an overhaul post-FAQ if anyone wants to take a gander over in the Army Lists forum (link in sig). One of them is a massed boots-on-the-ground infantry list (110 suits of power armor plus a PE) inspired by the extensive discussion a couple of pages back about the merits of footslogging blobs. I'm really charmed by the fluffiness of 10-Sister, 126-point "Trinity" squads with Stormbolter, Melta, and Heavy Flamer in that list... I think Sisters without Flamers borders on heresy. The mechanized list gives Exos another shot and uses every hull I've currently got. Of the three, the blended list might actually be somewhat viable in the traditional MSU style. Feedback is always welcome.
Played a little game over the weekend with my daughters. Gave them 3, 5-girl BSS squads with double flamers and a storm bolter on the Superior. Then I ran squads of ork boyz into them.
1 ork made it into close combat (I was ignoring moral) in only one of the 5 games we played.
Flamers are good, folks. Flamers are good.
Mr Morden wrote: Anyone got any tips to fighting Imperial Guard with
Manticores, guard screen and lots of tanks
Manticores, Baneblade and lots of guard?
It would be using the new FAQs
I only have one Repressor.
Run up and punch them. My foot Sororitas list did incredibly well against a very similar list (sans baneblade, add basilisks) by vaporizing the screens with a billion storm bolters and Immolation Flamers from my two Immolators, and then essentially just bit the bullet (there were 104 models on the board, so not even mantalisks could make a meaningfull dent) until they locked them up in combat and the big guns could never shoot again.
2x Repressors with Doms in them can scout up 10 inches. Then the Battle sisters can move, advance, then embark. Then the Repressors can move. I just can't shoot the BSS storm bolters turn 1.
The 3rd Repressor will have the last BSS squad and Canoness.
Celestine and the Seraphim do their in your face thing.
The Captain with the Relic jump pack can move 13-18 a turn and still assault.
The aggressors get to use the Strike from the Shadows stratagem and then plop in anywhere.
The xiphons fly around and do their thing.
My entire list can be in or on your deployment zone with the exception of the Repressor with the Canoness. It will be 6" from your deployment zone.
Turn 1 I have 14 melta shots, 4 HF, 6 of 12 storm bolters, 12 bolt pistols, 8 lascannons, 6 missiles, and 72 aggressor bolter shots with 6D6 grenade shots.
I like it. Though I my forces will remain pure Sisters.
Funny how GW's message for SoB players this year have been.... "We have finally decided to do Sisters in plastic! Emperor willing of course we will have them out before 9ed!" Wait a month... "Now to follow up that great news, the rule of 3! Now you have to either buy more metal bolter girls, or buy into soup!"
So, giving the new FAQ's and that i was going to shelve them because i like Harlequins more and they are getting a codex soon, i deside to not shelve yet.
Ordana wrote: Why do you need 16 CP when you have nothing to spend them on.
I get what your saying, but its not like my lists will have less than 12 anymore for ever.
Its more about what models i have and the limited to 3 per datasheet, i have 24 HB's that i want to use and lots of SB's, i also like Seraphim, Doms, and Rets.
B.c i have an Imagifier (tho i'll do the Auto AOF from Celestine and the 2+ 1st) i will most likely spend 5/6 turns re-rolling that Imagifier, there is 5 Re-rolls right there, then there is Matrydom and maybe Deny CP, 1 holding for Celestine always.
Finally i'll just the others for Charges for the Arco and Re-rols for my Melee Canoness, she is a boss, she so far every game has killed 3-4x her worth.
dracpanzer wrote: I like it. Though I my forces will remain pure Sisters.
Funny how GW's message for SoB players this year have been.... "We have finally decided to do Sisters in plastic! Emperor willing of course we will have them out before 9ed!" Wait a month... "Now to follow up that great news, the rule of 3! Now you have to either buy more metal bolter girls, or buy into soup!"
My pure sisters list was unaffected by the Rule of 3 at 2k.
Ordana wrote: Why do you need 16 CP when you have nothing to spend them on.
Usual re-rolls plus matrydom and Deny strat I would think?
Yeah, you'd be surprised how many you can burn through in short order. At my last event with the brigade, I spent 12 every game. I don't think I ever had a game where I said 'Hmm. I guess I'll have left over CP.'
Managed to pick up ten sisters for about €26 in ebay, originally wanted to start SoBs next year with the plastic release, but couldn't resist picking up some 'legacy' models for the future .
Just for fun I wanted to ask how decent the stock loadout of the Battle sisters squad is, I plan to play them with my leftover SM Rhino (fully black and I'm going to remove the only SW icon on it) in fun games with my Guard and Wolves. Curious about imput, particularly whether or not I should play them as a single unit or two seperate ones (or as Celestians or any other unit), as I know very little about sisters, have only brushed over them a few times when reading the Imp 2 index, lore pages aside.
What I have:
- 7 regular girls with bolters
- 1 sister with a Storm bolter
- 1 sister with a flamer
- 1 sister superior with a combi flamer and icon (shouldn't be an issue to play it as a power maul)
You can play that as just about anything you want really. That load oyt fits the basic troops sisters, Celestians and dominions. Just comes down to which you like more. Id field them as one 10 woman squad though, no real benefit to splitting them up with what you have available. Grab yourself a "legacy" (read:awesome) Cannoness to make a Patrol detachment. Or, use the superior with trhe icon as a cannoness accompanying 9 bss, celestians or dominions as you choose.
Ordana wrote: Why do you need 16 CP when you have nothing to spend them on.
Sisters have loads to spend CP on. Martyrdom is awesome and can potnetially be used a dozen or so times per game if you have enough characters. Shield of Faith is ass, and with pure Sisters the only other psychic defence you have is the CA Strat. There's another 1-6CP spent in most games. Insane Bravery is useful for preserving important models and squads, while Command Reroll is never a bad idea.
BBAP wrote: Fortunately I have plenty of time in my day, so let's do this (but behind the spoiler because nobody else cares to have huge textwall quote crap clogging up the thread).
I don't know exactly why, but I just can't get on board with a foot slogging sister's list. I feel like we're too expensive to attempt a pseudo-horde army. Every list I toy seems 'meh'. I can't get excited enough about it to try one out.
deviantduck wrote: I don't know exactly why, but I just can't get on board with a foot slogging sister's list. I feel like we're too expensive to attempt a pseudo-horde army. Every list I toy seems 'meh'. I can't get excited enough about it to try one out.
Not quite the same but pre faq massed Seraphim was pretty good. Post faq that list is dead.
Regardless though I agree. I don't see how a horde a BSS would be any good. Sisters transports are fantastic.
deviantduck wrote: I don't know exactly why, but I just can't get on board with a foot slogging sister's list. I feel like we're too expensive to attempt a pseudo-horde army. Every list I toy seems 'meh'. I can't get excited enough about it to try one out.
That's the problem I have when making mech Sisters lists tbh - everything is like, "AdMech can do this better" or "Would work better with Guillimarines". AoF-powered CP-rich hordes are the only thing that differentiates Sisters from the rest of the Imperium, and even that build has a lot of hard counters and inefficiencies.
deviantduck wrote: I don't know exactly why, but I just can't get on board with a foot slogging sister's list. I feel like we're too expensive to attempt a pseudo-horde army. Every list I toy seems 'meh'. I can't get excited enough about it to try one out.
That's the problem I have when making mech Sisters lists tbh - everything is like, "AdMech can do this better" or "Would work better with Guillimarines". AoF-powered CP-rich hordes are the only thing that differentiates Sisters from the rest of the Imperium, and even that build has a lot of hard counters and inefficiencies.
Did you try making 'vvvrooOOOoooom' noises when moving your transports? It helps.
I was about to shelve my sisters for awhile and get back on the hobby horse of finishing my KDK, but they're in an even worse off position post FAQ. But, as much as I dislike marines, I'm at least excited to paint some aggressors as an ally, now.
I think everyone is overreacting to the fact that we can only take 3 units of Dominions now. I don't think its that big of deal. Just splash in a few units of Seraphim, you'll be fine. With Repressor points increases in Chapter Approved I found it hard to fit more than 3 units of Repressors Dominions anyway.
Why not try out Dominion Repressors kitted out with dual heavy flamers and storm bolters? I've been playing around with it and I really like the load out so far. Have you tried massed immolators backed by acro flagents or DCA to bail you out of combat if you get surrounded and can't back out? What about 2x BSS repressors armed with 6x Storm Bolters or 6x Meltas? Sure they can't scout but if your opponent managed to kill 3x Repressors and all the guys inside turn one your probably in trouble anyway.
I think theres a lot more opportunity here than people realize, it's just going to take some trial and error to find it.
deviantduck wrote: Did you try making 'vvvrooOOOoooom' noises when moving your transports? It helps.
I did, but I can't get the horn sound right.
As for hobby horses, I'm currently trying to build a list of AM allies that'll work with both my Sisters and my Genestealer Cults, which is difficult. I've bought nothing but rulebooks since I got back into 40k and I want to buy and build some dudes.
So is there anything I can do to improve this list? Because of the 0-3 rule everyone I know insists on using, I can't use 2 full SB squad of Dominions. Should I drop the 10 strong squad + Transport for 2 Heavy Bolter Retributor squads or 2 Seraphim Squads to flank Celestine, or 1 and 1?
BaconCatBug wrote: So is there anything I can do to improve this list? Because of the 0-3 rule everyone I know insists on using, I can't use 2 full SB squad of Dominions. Should I drop the 10 strong squad + Transport for 2 Heavy Bolter Retributor squads or 2 Seraphim Squads to flank Celestine, or 1 and 1?
Without room in the list for Imagifiers (the assassin would buy you two) and using a Canoness to buff the Retributers, I think the Seraphim will offer the most of those two options. Is 1750 the agreed upon points limit or is there an allied detachment somehwere?
pretre wrote: Why a vindicare? That seems like the most lackluster of assassins.
I agree, the idea of a super sniper seems cool, but the Vindicare never seems to have the damage output you would expect. Culuxus or Eversor seem like they would be a better choice.
It seems most players load out their Dominions with melta.
Most of my opponents throw out heavy screens to protect their heavy hitters, so if I load out my Dominions with meltas their Scout moves get wasted since most of the time I can’t reach their big stuff with 12” melta range. Instead I load out my Dominions with pure Stormbolters (all my Superiors also carry Inferno Pistols) to clear out my opponent’s screens then push in with my BS Squads and Guard allies.
Just curious for those carrying pure melta Doms, how do you deal with heavy screens and still utilize your Scout moves?
davidgr33n wrote: It seems most players load out their Dominions with melta.
Most of my opponents throw out heavy screens to protect their heavy hitters, so if I load out my Dominions with meltas their Scout moves get wasted since most of the time I can’t reach their big stuff with 12” melta range. Instead I load out my Dominions with pure Stormbolters (all my Superiors also carry Inferno Pistols) to clear out my opponent’s screens then push in with my BS Squads and Guard allies.
Just curious for those carrying pure melta Doms, how do you deal with heavy screens and still utilize your Scout moves?
Loadout your doms with melta, shoot the screens with HB rets, repressors, SBBSS, etc, then shoot with the doms.
I occasionally did Stormbolters on Dominions pre-FAQ. They'd Vanguard out to grab some cover opposite a busy objective around midfield and spend the whole game dropping 40 dice per turn once an Imagifier and a Canoness could make their way out. Once I did it with 2 minmaxed squads, Imagifier, and Canoness on a three level ruin and watched them turn whole squads of TSons terminators into Swiss cheese.
Post-FAQ, that's going to be a job for stormbolter BSS.
BaconCatBug wrote: So is there anything I can do to improve this list? Because of the 0-3 rule everyone I know insists on using, I can't use 2 full SB squad of Dominions. Should I drop the 10 strong squad + Transport for 2 Heavy Bolter Retributor squads or 2 Seraphim Squads to flank Celestine, or 1 and 1?
Without room in the list for Imagifiers (the assassin would buy you two) and using a Canoness to buff the Retributers, I think the Seraphim will offer the most of those two options. Is 1750 the agreed upon points limit or is there an allied detachment somehwere?
1750 is the points limit my group of buddies use as a compromise between game length and army size. I could drop the assassin, it was there just because I could. I'll swap it out for Imagifiers.
pretre wrote:Why a vindicare? That seems like the most lackluster of assassins.
So SB Dominions are mad dakka, but footslogging BSS squads are a waste of space? The latter only have two Stormbolters less than the Doms and while they can't Vanguard, they can AoF. They can also be spammed in Battalions. 0-3 Imagifers is a bit of a drag, but hey ho.
BBAP wrote: So SB Dominions are mad dakka, but footslogging BSS squads are a waste of space? The latter only have two Stormbolters less than the Doms and while they can't Vanguard, they can AoF. They can also be spammed in Battalions. 0-3 Imagifers is a bit of a drag, but hey ho.
I like footslug SoB, its how ive been playing them since the repressor went up in points, i havent looked back. But i do have lots of HB's, Rets, Seraphim etc... might be a bit different than loads of BSS.
Amishprn86 wrote: Ever game ive seen the Vindicare in has failed to do much.
I'd rather just save the points for something else.
Used it a few times and did quite well killing characters - although the last one it was useless - missed twice and the third time I missed I re-rolled to hit and then rolled a 1 for the to wound roll....
Yeah, or you get that sweet super rare 6 to wound and get excited for d6 damage but roll and reroll a 1 for the damage.
Vindicare is relegated to fluff lists imo. Ive tried running 2 in a list doubling up on the same target. Theyre just twice rhe points wasted.
MacPhail wrote: I occasionally did Stormbolters on Dominions pre-FAQ. They'd Vanguard out to grab some cover opposite a busy objective around midfield and spend the whole game dropping 40 dice per turn once an Imagifier and a Canoness could make their way out. Once I did it with 2 minmaxed squads, Imagifier, and Canoness on a three level ruin and watched them turn whole squads of TSons terminators into Swiss cheese.
Post-FAQ, that's going to be a job for stormbolter BSS.
There's a lot of mech lists in the STL area, and I ran into this same issue a lot. It's tough to get at back field russes, preds, and onagers. My best solution was two xiphons for the 8 lascannons. It filled the long range anti tank hole that sisters suffer. Post FAQ I'm investing more in SM to keep them on the field. This is irrelevant advice for a pure sisters list, but I don't think most armies can stay competitive with a pure list anymore. I got sick of struggling against exactly what you described and had to look for help outside our dex. If you do stick with melta doms in repressors, remember you can advance in your scout and first turn and still shoot the meltas. The repressor itself can't, though. But that gives you a 26-36 movement with an additional 12" of melta goodness. You can in theory cover all the way to their table edge. So going around the screen can sometimes be viable.
MacPhail wrote: I occasionally did Stormbolters on Dominions pre-FAQ. They'd Vanguard out to grab some cover opposite a busy objective around midfield and spend the whole game dropping 40 dice per turn once an Imagifier and a Canoness could make their way out. Once I did it with 2 minmaxed squads, Imagifier, and Canoness on a three level ruin and watched them turn whole squads of TSons terminators into Swiss cheese.
Post-FAQ, that's going to be a job for stormbolter BSS.
I would if I could, but all my Stormbolters have ended up as Sister Superiors for the increased firepower from one model...especially when my mechanized squads have become smaller.
BBAP wrote: So SB Dominions are mad dakka, but footslogging BSS squads are a waste of space? The latter only have two Stormbolters less than the Doms and while they can't Vanguard, they can AoF. They can also be spammed in Battalions. 0-3 Imagifers is a bit of a drag, but hey ho.
I like footslug SoB, its how ive been playing them since the repressor went up in points, i havent looked back. But i do have lots of HB's, Rets, Seraphim etc... might be a bit different than loads of BSS.
HB Rets are different because they have a different weapon profile than boltguns, but everything else is just boltguns and Meltaguns, innit? Seraphim and Dominions have extra movement over the BSS but they're putting out equivalent firepower - and since boltgun firepower sucks unless it's applied in bulk maybe more Sisters is preferable to better Sisters?
Without room in the list for Imagifiers (the assassin would buy you two) and using a Canoness to buff the Retributers, I think the Seraphim will offer the most of those two options. Is 1750 the agreed upon points limit or is there an allied detachment somehwere?
1750 is the points limit my group of buddies use as a compromise between game length and army size. I could drop the assassin, it was there just because I could. I'll swap it out for Imagifiers.
It should be an almost even swap... drop the full size Dominions, a Repressor, and the Assassin to add 2x Retributers with Heavy Bolters, 2x Imagifiers, and an extra Canoness as Warlord to hang back with them. That combo forms the core of almost every list I run. It frees your BoA Canoness to go take risks buffing your short range shooters and providing a melee threat other than Celestine. The volume of rerollable S5 shots at the beginning of your first turn should be enough to punch a hole in whatever is screening your opponent's shiniest toy, letting you run your meltas and heavy flamers up close on your first movement phase.
dracpanzer wrote: I like it. Though I my forces will remain pure Sisters.
My pure sisters list was unaffected by the Rule of 3 at 2k.
I get it, my list was gutted by it. The index list and 8ed detachment builds allowed me to remove BSS from my list all together. I replaced them with SB Doms. I would bring one or two Melta Dom squads and a squad of Seraphim for AT. With Celestine, Rets, Imagifer and obligatory Canonesses I was able to be competitive every where I went.
Post FAQ I have conformed to the rule of three and in all of the eight games I have played against the same competitive armies my Sisters now feel very much like an Index army. Do they suck? No. Are they in need of a dex now that the codex armies can take advantage of how many dataslate options they have while Sisters can't. Yes.
The 3 Rule didn't fix 40k balance, it just shifted it to a place mono Sisters can't follow. It's too soon to know (and I don't pretend to know) where the Meta shift will end up. But stacking up BSS squads isn't going to take us far when 30 dark reapers is still perfectly legal.
dracpanzer wrote: I like it. Though I my forces will remain pure Sisters.
My pure sisters list was unaffected by the Rule of 3 at 2k.
I get it, my list was gutted by it. The index list and 8ed detachment builds allowed me to remove BSS from my list all together. I replaced them with SB Doms. I would bring one or two Melta Dom squads and a squad of Seraphim for AT. With Celestine, Rets, Imagifer and obligatory Canonesses I was able to be competitive every where I went.
Post FAQ I have conformed to the rule of three and in all of the eight games I have played against the same competitive armies my Sisters now feel very much like an Index army. Do they suck? No. Are they in need of a dex now that the codex armies can take advantage of how many dataslate options they have while Sisters can't. Yes.
The 3 Rule didn't fix 40k balance, it just shifted it to a place mono Sisters can't follow. It's too soon to know (and I don't pretend to know) where the Meta shift will end up. But stacking up BSS squads isn't going to take us far when 30 dark reapers is still perfectly legal.
BBAP wrote: So SB Dominions are mad dakka, but footslogging BSS squads are a waste of space? The latter only have two Stormbolters less than the Doms and while they can't Vanguard, they can AoF. They can also be spammed in Battalions. 0-3 Imagifers is a bit of a drag, but hey ho.
I like footslug SoB, its how ive been playing them since the repressor went up in points, i havent looked back. But i do have lots of HB's, Rets, Seraphim etc... might be a bit different than loads of BSS.
HB Rets are different because they have a different weapon profile than boltguns, but everything else is just boltguns and Meltaguns, innit? Seraphim and Dominions have extra movement over the BSS but they're putting out equivalent firepower - and since boltgun firepower sucks unless it's applied in bulk maybe more Sisters is preferable to better Sisters?
It's not that I'd never use an AoF to boost a BSS unit, but there's a long list of targets in front of them. When we could afford to run Stormbolter Doms pre-FAQ, I'd occasionally throw them an AoF weighted against only HB Rets shooting, Seraphim movement, and Celestine's melee. Looking at BSS, when there are fewer stormbolters and the unit is harder to position aggressively, they fall further down among other AoF uses, like putting wounds back on Celestine, standing up heavies and specials, etc. I feel like I have always run a lot of Imagifiers-- now the maximum-- and I hardly ever fire up an AoF for A BSS squad, regardless of loadout, unless I'm running them out for an objective.
dracpanzer wrote: I like it. Though I my forces will remain pure Sisters.
My pure sisters list was unaffected by the Rule of 3 at 2k.
I get it, my list was gutted by it. The index list and 8ed detachment builds allowed me to remove BSS from my list all together. I replaced them with SB Doms. I would bring one or two Melta Dom squads and a squad of Seraphim for AT. With Celestine, Rets, Imagifer and obligatory Canonesses I was able to be competitive every where I went.
Post FAQ I have conformed to the rule of three and in all of the eight games I have played against the same competitive armies my Sisters now feel very much like an Index army. Do they suck? No. Are they in need of a dex now that the codex armies can take advantage of how many dataslate options they have while Sisters can't. Yes.
The 3 Rule didn't fix 40k balance, it just shifted it to a place mono Sisters can't follow. It's too soon to know (and I don't pretend to know) where the Meta shift will end up. But stacking up BSS squads isn't going to take us far when 30 dark reapers is still perfectly legal.
Bingo. I get anti-soup rule, and while it hurt my feelings I support it. However, the rule of 3 rule doesn't make any sense as a blanket rule. A few problem spam units in other codices ruined it for the rest of us.
The main issue is that people are treating the Rule of 3 as applicable to EVERY game, when it's not, it's only for tournament games, not pick-up matched play games.
BaconCatBug wrote: The main issue is that people are treating the Rule of 3 as applicable to EVERY game, when it's not, it's only for tournament games, not pick-up matched play games.
This is true of every rule so people don't really cover it since every rule is up in the air for pick up games.
The only discussion that really relevant is one where we have common ground, hence discussing as if this is for every game.
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dracpanzer wrote: I get it, my list was gutted by it. The index list and 8ed detachment builds allowed me to remove BSS from my list all together. I replaced them with SB Doms. I would bring one or two Melta Dom squads and a squad of Seraphim for AT. With Celestine, Rets, Imagifer and obligatory Canonesses I was able to be competitive every where I went.
Post FAQ I have conformed to the rule of three and in all of the eight games I have played against the same competitive armies my Sisters now feel very much like an Index army. Do they suck? No. Are they in need of a dex now that the codex armies can take advantage of how many dataslate options they have while Sisters can't. Yes.
The 3 Rule didn't fix 40k balance, it just shifted it to a place mono Sisters can't follow. It's too soon to know (and I don't pretend to know) where the Meta shift will end up. But stacking up BSS squads isn't going to take us far when 30 dark reapers is still perfectly legal.
4+ Doms isn't the only way to run a successful list, it is just the way you (and a few others chose to do it). If you REALLY want to just take the good stuff, try out 3xDom, 3xSeraph, 3xRets and build from there. I'm thinking that you're going to get enough hard hitters that you'll be doing pretty well.
Don't kid yourself, we were an index army before the 3 rule and we played like one. Did we need a dex before rule of 3? Heck yeah. Do we still need one? Yep. Can we still hang and have pretty decent lists? Yep. Like I said, my list is the same to what it was before the faq and it is still pretty darn effective.
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deviantduck wrote: Bingo. I get anti-soup rule, and while it hurt my feelings I support it. However, the rule of 3 rule doesn't make any sense as a blanket rule. A few problem spam units in other codices ruined it for the rest of us.
It makes sense because it makes the whack-a-mole a little easier. Comp of any kind is a game of whack-a-mole. I.e. nerf the unit that is too good. The rule of three makes sense since almost every time a OP unit comes out, the reaction from the community is 'I'll take 12!!!!'. This way, they future proof against the next OP unit. Does it occasionally hit something else like Dom spam? Yes. Was 'I'll take 12 dominions!' boring list design and spam and probably not good for the army? IMO, yes.
pretre wrote: This is true of every rule so people don't really cover it since every rule is up in the air for pick up games.
This isn't true in the slightest. The rulebook has a bunch of rules for matched play. The 0-3 rule is not one of them.
No. You are missing the point.
It doesn't help for us to discuss pick up games and one-offs since when you're playing 1x1 with someone you can choose to accept or ignore whatever rules you want. What we do generally talk about is what the majority of events have accepted, since this is where you can't just say 'how about we don't use X rule' with your opponent. And in this case, beta rules are being accepted by the vast majority of US events that I have heard of.
1. Match play tactical reserves (beta) rule change:
* prohibits units arriving from reserve on turn 1 from deploying anywhere but wholly inside your deployment zone
* requires you to have at least half your points AND half your power level on the table during deployment
* the restriction on where they can deploy doesn't apply to Genestealer Cult Ambush or to units that deploy before the first first battle round begins such as through Strike from the Shadows
2. Imperium cannot be used as a faction keyword for creating detachments for a battle-forged army.
Primarily, this means:
* Inquisitors can only be taken in an Inquisition Vanguard or Supreme Command detachment or through an Auxiliary detachment
* Assassins, Legion of the Damned, and Sisters of Silence can be taken in a Vanguard detachment without an HQ per errata in the FAQ but you receive no CP for doing so. Otherwise, they're all relegated to Auxiliary detachments.
3. for matched play organized events, you cannot bring more than two of any non-Troops, non-Dedicated transport data slates in your entire army. This increases by 1 data slate for every 1000 points thereafter
Translation there is you can't take more than three Canoness, three Imagifiers, thee Dominion squads and three Seraphim squads (each) in a 2000 point list.
However, because they're different data slates, a Space Marine player can theoretically bring three captains, three captains in Terminator Armor, three captains on Bikes, three Gravis Captains and a partridge in a pear tree as a legal army.
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deviantduck wrote: Bingo. I get anti-soup rule, and while it hurt my feelings I support it. However, the rule of 3 rule doesn't make any sense as a blanket rule. A few problem spam units in other codices ruined it for the rest of us.
It makes sense because it makes the whack-a-mole a little easier. Comp of any kind is a game of whack-a-mole. I.e. nerf the unit that is too good. The rule of three makes sense since almost every time a OP unit comes out, the reaction from the community is 'I'll take 12!!!!'. This way, they future proof against the next OP unit. Does it occasionally hit something else like Dom spam? Yes. Was 'I'll take 12 dominions!' boring list design and spam and probably not good for the army? IMO, yes.
That's horrible game design.Good designers with good play testers would nerf only what needs to be nerfed and get better data on what combinations are abusive through their play testers. The problem, as I see it, is that most of GW's play testing appears to be "beer and pretzels internal" testing where they end up making completely fluffy armies and don't try to actually break the armies like top tournament players do to find what's actually problematic. These players who are bringing lists like flyrant spam and Dark Reaper spam need to be GW's play testers!
That said, will things still get missed? Yes. We're human, and somewhere along the line someone will find a combination no one else thought of. That's when you fix that combination. But as I read somewhere recently, 30 dominions -- even if it's six squads of five -- are nowhere near as potent as 30 dark reapers (which is still legal). It's also not our fault that BSS do so little. Instead of nerfing Dominions, Seraphim and Retributors give us more reasons to bring BSS besides "Batalion/Brigade requirements". If a 50 Seraphim army turns out to be broken (it's not, btw), then fix it.
Balancing needs to be done like brewing ale. Small adjustments here and there. After all, it's always easier to adjust a little more in either direction than it is to go "well, we made these ten units worse trying to fix these four" and try to roll that back. I'd be fired from my job if I broke ten things that were working fine to fix four other things that weren't working at all!
As for the soup rule, it broke a few things that didn't need to be broken in the first place (assassins, SoS, LotD, Inquisitors) and the fix for three of the four is "eh". On top of it, it doesn't fix the fact that most of the soup was multiple detachments, each from different factions, rather than "Guilliman + Celestine in a Battalion". I mean, yeah, you can't do it as a Supreme Command detachment now but you can still bring Guilliman in a SH Auxiliary detachment for 3CP and Celestine in an Outrider detachment and still have 1400 points to spend on Sisters + whatever else you want to bring.
Ah, I see. Well gak. Guess I'm not participating in tournies any time soon, since my BA list is now invalid (too many terminators, apparently they're considered broken now what?). And my Sisters list would be, too, if I still had the heart to play it.
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deviantduck wrote:
Bingo. I get anti-soup rule, and while it hurt my feelings I support it. However, the rule of 3 rule doesn't make any sense as a blanket rule. A few problem spam units in other codices ruined it for the rest of us.
It makes sense because it makes the whack-a-mole a little easier. Comp of any kind is a game of whack-a-mole. I.e. nerf the unit that is too good. The rule of three makes sense since almost every time a OP unit comes out, the reaction from the community is 'I'll take 12!!!!'. This way, they future proof against the next OP unit. Does it occasionally hit something else like Dom spam? Yes. Was 'I'll take 12 dominions!' boring list design and spam and probably not good for the army? IMO, yes.
That's horrible game design.Good designers with good play testers would nerf only what needs to be nerfed and get better data on what combinations are abusive through their play testers. The problem, as I see it, is that most of GW's play testing appears to be "beer and pretzels internal" testing where they end up making completely fluffy armies and don't try to actually break the armies like top tournament players do to find what's actually problematic. These players who are bringing lists like flyrant spam and Dark Reaper spam need to be GW's play testers!
40k just takes too long to be a really competitive game and collect the data that you want. The playtesting reflects that. You literally can't get the thousands of playthroughs necessary to balance/break everything when deployment lasts an hour and every map is different. 40k has hundreds of pages of rules and millions of unit interactions to take into account (and no computer control to handle all those interactions perfectly). Honestly, the fact that GW is even willing to try (after not doing so for so long) is a blessing. Besides... the fact that they are even at the large conventions (gathering data) is a huge change for the better.
MacPhail wrote:It's not that I'd never use an AoF to boost a BSS unit, but there's a long list of targets in front of them. When we could afford to run Stormbolter Doms pre-FAQ, I'd occasionally throw them an AoF weighted against only HB Rets shooting, Seraphim movement, and Celestine's melee. Looking at BSS, when there are fewer stormbolters and the unit is harder to position aggressively, they fall further down among other AoF uses, like putting wounds back on Celestine, standing up heavies and specials, etc. I feel like I have always run a lot of Imagifiers-- now the maximum-- and I hardly ever fire up an AoF for A BSS squad, regardless of loadout, unless I'm running them out for an objective.
I get what you're saying, but my point is that BSS shooting isn't much less deadly than Dominion shooting, especially since the BSS are less likely to outpace the Canonesses, and consequently I'm not sure all the post-FAQ pessimism is warranted. Dominions only have 2 more Stormbolters than a BSS squad gets access to, and at the end of the day you can still take 3 units of Doms, so if you build to maximise your AoFs via CP (Martyrdoms) and Imagifers then use those to get your Battle Sisters moving I still think it's possible to push a lot of Stormbolters into commanding central positions early in the game. It's going to run differently than it would with max Dominions - your Scout moves are going to be made with a view to bringing the Dominions to bear on turn two or three, in support of the advancing BSSes, rather than turn one - but the option is still there.
The fact you're only bringing your full firepower to bear on turn 2 or 3 is problematic I suppose, especially in time-sensitive situations. That kind of thing allows people to slow-play you out of contention, but I don't really see how mono-Sisters get around that given how fragile they are and the fact they have no way to push damage past saving throws.
The AoFs via Martyrdom is an angle I haven't considered and really haven't tried in play... might change a few things. And your right, the differences in damage output are minor. I have three Stormbolter BSS units slated to take the field tomorrow with my Witchhunters list, and I'll see how aggressively I can play them into optimal range.
Oh yeah. I use the heck out of it, I just don't stack my list to fuel it. I see some of the Dakka lists running Dialogi, I just never seem to have the points.
MacPhail wrote: Oh yeah. I use the heck out of it, I just don't stack my list to fuel it.
It's not really a build that lends itself to mech Sisters, but it's the way my footsloggers are built (provisionally at any rate) and frankly I have no idea how or why you'd even play foot Sisters without going for max CP and max AoFs. AoFs and constant shooting are the only two reasons to give up your primary source of mobility, so in my mind you kinda have to go for broke with them.
Even at that, it's not without issues, especially post-FAQ. You need max CP as well as max SoB Characters, but the 0-3 Canoness limit stymies your options for generating Command Points - I think 10 is the max for mono-Sisters unless you're bringing a Brigade, and that's just not enough to cover the Martyrdoms, six turns of Purity of Faith, plus whatever BRB Strats you might like to use.
Sacrificial lambs are hard to come by as well, and even when you've got them there's no guarantee an opponent will actually allow you to suicide them. Imagifers won't work because they're a useful source of secondary AoFs, Canonesses won't necessarily die unless the opponent makes at least a little effort to kill them, Hospitallers are pricey, and finally the Sister Dialogus model is too daft to consider fielding.
All things considered I don't think it's a viable list-building strategy for mono-Sisters post-FAQ, but if you're looking for a way around the loss of Dominion-spam then stuffing in a few more CP and Characters might help, especially since the BSSes aren't much less killy than SB Doms.
I seriously doubt that your opponent will pourposly kill one and only one of your characters per turn so that you can maximize martyrdom. they will avoid them, but eventually they will kill as many as they can in a single phase.
Overall, Sisters don’t need to stack all the cp’s and all the characters. By all means, give them bad choices to make (do I let this cheap, elite character camp this objective or do I let Celestine get an additional assault phase...), but the whole Act of Faith system is a net 3-9 cp per turn benefit! (Based on the cost of stratagems in other armies that allow extra phases of the game).
I agree though that a well equipped BSS is almost as killy as doms. With the changes to deepstriking on turn one, we don’t need as many units pushing out of our deployment zone on turn one anyway.
Taking 2-3 Diaglous works okay. I used to do it and depending on the list they have their place. The tricky thing is to time their deaths so it's in your favor. Once your opponent realizes why you have them very rarely will they actually try to kill them. If your playing ITC missions though they are a huge liability and imagifers are better.
Anpu-adom wrote: I seriously doubt that your opponent will pourposly kill one and only one of your characters per turn so that you can maximize martyrdom. they will avoid them, but eventually they will kill as many as they can in a single phase.
Overall, Sisters don’t need to stack all the cp’s and all the characters. By all means, give them bad choices to make (do I let this cheap, elite character camp this objective or do I let Celestine get an additional assault phase...), but the whole Act of Faith system is a net 3-9 cp per turn benefit! (Based on the cost of stratagems in other armies that allow extra phases of the game).
I agree though that a well equipped BSS is almost as killy as doms. With the changes to deepstriking on turn one, we don’t need as many units pushing out of our deployment zone on turn one anyway.
You throw them into the fights, when you footslug and have 90 bodies ont he table, but them in front, move and advance turn 1 or have them in front for turn 1 charges, if you put them in CC your opponent will either stay and fight to kill it, or fallback and dont shoot, if you are charging tanks, heavy teams, etc.. its funny, b.c they can either do nothing or kill it and let you get a free AoF.
My Canoness with the Relic sword has killed full units b.c of fear to kill her, due to having Celestine being able to attack again or my HB's shooting, etc..
This is if you are trying to max out AOF, if you take 3 of them you can have instead 8 Diaglous, thats 8 AoF you can get instead of 6 on average.
MacPhail wrote: I have three Stormbolter BSS units slated to take the field tomorrow with my Witchhunters list, and I'll see how aggressively I can play them into optimal range.
Even if they're no substitute for extra Dominions squads or don't merit an occasional AoF, these squads are so worth 51 points. All three of mine delivered: The right flank screened deep strikers and did heavy damage to a Stormboyz squad and a unit of Gretchin with a Runtherd. The left flank saw little action, but scored 2 of my 4 VPs. The third squad went up the middle in an Immolator with my BoA Canoness. They actually charged and wiped out a squad of Boyz in addition to their shooting casualties. Bullgryns and Scions did most of the heavy lifting, but Stormbolter BSS are excellent assets for the price.
Anpu-adom wrote: I seriously doubt that your opponent will pourposly kill one and only one of your characters per turn so that you can maximize martyrdom. they will avoid them, but eventually they will kill as many as they can in a single phase.
They will if you dash them all forwards so they can be targeted. Considering how your SoB Characters synergise with the rest of the army though you'll generally be keeping them behind the BSS anyway, and from there you can throw them forward at your leisure.
Lone Wolf Canoness builds are a little problematic here - they're carrying some killing power so you kinda want to chuck them out of the scrum to deal with whatever, but you need to do it carefully to avoid the above problem. I'm thinking about trying out a Dakka-Canoness (Boltgun & Combi-Melta or Stormbolter), partly because she's cheaper and partly because I'm less tempted to run her into the nearest CC unit, but can still put her front and centre to up her contribution/ expose her to Martyrdom.
Overall, Sisters don’t need to stack all the cp’s and all the characters. By all means, give them bad choices to make (do I let this cheap, elite character camp this objective or do I let Celestine get an additional assault phase...), but the whole Act of Faith system is a net 3-9 cp per turn benefit! (Based on the cost of stratagems in other armies that allow extra phases of the game).
See, I disagree here. Sisters have always killed things with a thousand cuts - their ability to degrade an opponent's army was hard-limited by the fact they suck in close combat and thus only get 5-7 phases per game to do any damage. AoFs provide a really neat fix to that issue from two directions - first, they let ytou get your army moving without needing a turn to footslog/ ride up and dismount, so you're more able to take advantage of the shooting phases you get as standard, and they also hand you extra shooting phases. The fact you can just take a load of Cadian Mortars or Dakkabots to reach out and touch things notwithstanding, AoFs are a crazy-awesome fix for the army and I dunno why you wouldn't want to get as many as you can.
Also my Canonesses don't camp. They run towards *your* campers and Eviscerate them.
BBAP wrote: Sisters have always killed things with a thousand cuts - their ability to degrade an opponent's army was hard-limited by the fact they suck in close combat and thus only get 5-7 phases per game to do any damage. AoFs provide a really neat fix to that issue from two directions - first, they let ytou get your army moving without needing a turn to footslog/ ride up and dismount, so you're more able to take advantage of the shooting phases you get as standard, and they also hand you extra shooting phases. The fact you can just take a load of Cadian Mortars or Dakkabots to reach out and touch things notwithstanding, AoFs are a crazy-awesome fix for the army and I dunno why you wouldn't want to get as many as you can.
I agree with everything here except the 'death by a thousand cuts' analogy. For all the reasons you've said, Sisters can issue powerful single strokes that change the game. A few squads of Dominions can turn a mechanized army into footsloggers in a single turn, two units of Seraphim can humble a Baneblade in the back corner of the table, and a wall of aura-enhanced heavy bolters can remove the big, resilient board control blob of infantry from the center of the table while your opponent blinks in disbelief.
Also my Canonesses don't camp. They run towards *your* campers and Eviscerate them.
One-and-one has worked really well for me. BoA/Inferno takes her aura to midfield and picks a fight, while Tenacious Survivor hides among the Retributers. I give up Slay the Warlord only about one game in five, and the forward Canoness always gets her points back. With the added impact of Martyrdom, there is a question as to who should be Warlord... I could trade a VP for a mid-game AoF.
MacPhail wrote: I agree with everything here except the 'death by a thousand cuts' analogy. For all the reasons you've said, Sisters can issue powerful single strokes that change the game. A few squads of Dominions can turn a mechanized army into footsloggers in a single turn, two units of Seraphim can humble a Baneblade in the back corner of the table, and a wall of aura-enhanced heavy bolters can remove the big, resilient board control blob of infantry from the center of the table while your opponent blinks in disbelief.
The big boltgun backwash Sisters put out has always had the potential to do some serious mischief, and is one of the main reasons the army remained mid to high tier for so many editions (and one of the reasons they remain a relatively good army in 8th because it works against all targets now), but IMHO it's generally best to assume anything you need to kill with them is going to require 4/5ths of your shooting phase or a couple turns of dedicated attention.
That's one of the reasons (besides familiarity) that I can't give up my Meltaguns; S8 D6 Damage with a low AP can take a nice big chunk out of anything and thus give your bolt weapons less work to do.
Anyone play against a good Tau list yet in 8th? I played against one Saturday. After deployment there was absolutely nothing I could do to him. The only way I could have changed the outcome would have been to sit on my table edge and hide.
Deployment was hammer and anvil. He got to deploy about his 12" line keeping him 36" away. There was a central piece of ruins in his deployment zone, and with ITCs can't shoot bottom floor of ruins rule, he was able to hide his 3 hqs, and 2x 10 squads of drones. he had a riptide on each side, and some broadsides. In front to screen was 6 squads of firewarriors. He was able to stretch out and deny any spot where anything could deep strike in. There wasn't a single spot in his DZ that wasn't 9" from one of his models. In addition, everything except 3 squads of fire warriors were within 6" of drones, and his HQs. From this setup, I had already lost. The only thing I would have the option of killing would be the firewarriors, and that's all i was able to do the entire game.
So, the way he had it setup, all the big shooters could LoS their wounds to the drones. So, i would need to kill of the drones first. But, i can't see or target the drones. So this means any big guns (melta, lascannons) you fire at the riptides get sent over to the drones and you waste a melta shot on a single drone. If you fire mass bolters on the riptides, you're shooting 5 to wound against a 2+ save with FNP. He was too far away due to the deployment for celestine or the seraphim to do anything turn 1. Same for my hammer captain.
Turn 1. He goes first. He focused all of the vehicles to death with the big guns, then the 2 ranks of fire warriors cleaned up anything getting out. My seraphim were very dead. He killed all the repressors that scouted up.
Turn 2. Celestine got close enough to assault, but 50% of his army gets to overwatch her on 5s. She died to overwatch. The hammer captain actually got to assault a riptide and tie up some broadsides. He kills my second wave of transports of BSS that we're burdened with.
Turn 3. Celestine is back and assaulting, dies a second time to overwatch. The Hammer captain was shot off the board. Everything else is also dead.
Turn 4. All I have left is scouts and the canoness hiding in a ruin holding points. He moves up.
Turn 5, They both die to SMS that can see everything.
Since after deployment we both knew the outcome, and he's a friend of mine, we were essentially both playing my army against his trying to come up with the best strategy to crack the nut. The terrain wasn't anything out of the ordinary. A different deployment and me going first could have played out differently, but i'm not sure how much. This is the first game of 8th where I had that same feeling playing against Eldar/Riptide wings of 7th.
You need LOS blockers or that's going to happen against big shooty armies.
I've played against Tau and yes, you have to kill the drones with big guns because he makes you, but after they are dead the big guys are taking hits.
That being said, hammer and anvil vs a shooty army is tough no matter what edition we're in.
I haven't played against the new Tau. I was hoping to at this past weekend's RTT but none showed up. I did however really struggle vs a chaos gun line, going second, vs those mortal wound dreadnaught guns (the name escapes me).
It's going to be rough fighting gun lines for a while. The new FAQ gave a huge boost to them for the time being. If it becomes an issue I would recommended trying to ally in some guard for basilisks and wyverns.
If you can pop smoke vs BS 4+ armies helps a lot furthermore don't afraid to vanguard back, out of los. I know it really sucks but some time you just have to suck it up, realize you won't do much damage, and just play the mission. It's boring to really do nothing but pick up your models for a few turns while your opponent doesn't but if its a completive setting and it wins you the game, so be it.
Rynner wrote: It's going to be rough fighting gun lines for a while. The new FAQ gave a huge boost to them for the time being. If it becomes an issue I would recommended trying to ally in some guard for basilisks and wyverns.
How does the new FAQ affect us against shooting armies? I understand others with their first turn DS, but it didn't really change much unless someone is hiding up on ruins and Celestine can't fit.
The rule of 3. Although I never took more than 3 post points increase, it's not unreasonable that people did. It's a not that big of a stretch for a shooting army to kill or cripple 3x Repressors (if you go second) before they reach their target. However stopping 5-6? Thats way harder.
Rynner wrote: The rule of 3. Although I never took more than 3 post points increase, it's not unreasonable that people did. It's a not that big of a stretch for a shooting army to kill or cripple 3x Repressors (if you go second) before they reach their target. However stopping 5-6? Thats way harder.
Repressors are DT and not affected by the rule of 3. Or you mean more than 3 doms in repressors?
If you go second, your repressors should be hidden. You should always deploy Dominions within scouting distance of a LOS blocker.
Rynner wrote: The rule of 3. Although I never took more than 3 post points increase, it's not unreasonable that people did. It's a not that big of a stretch for a shooting army to kill or cripple 3x Repressors (if you go second) before they reach their target. However stopping 5-6? Thats way harder.
Repressors are DT and not affected by the rule of 3. Or you mean more than 3 doms in repressors?
If you go second, your repressors should be hidden. You should always deploy Dominions within scouting distance of a LOS blocker.
1 - good luck hiding more than 1 repressor on any tournament table's terrain setup.
2 - if you hide your repressors you're completely eliminating the value of dominions and their scout moves. This just means that your repressors are beat up and still far away.
Everyday we're feeling the Index vs Codex disparity more and more.
Rynner wrote: Yes Dominions. I don't know anyone who has taken Repressors without Dominions. You can't hide from Basilisks/Manticores, etc...
I take them for double BSS as well as Doms. Also, unless your opponent is taking all Basilisks/Mants, hiding still provides you with more protection than not.
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deviantduck wrote: 1 - good luck hiding more than 1 repressor on any tournament table's terrain setup. 2 - if you hide your repressors you're completely eliminating the value of dominions and their scout moves. This just means that your repressors are beat up and still far away.
Everyday we're feeling the Index vs Codex disparity more and more.
Okay, I'm not sure where you play but tournaments have to provide good LOS blocking terrain or you're sunk whatever army you play.
That being said. You should be able to place your Repressors in such a way that your can either scout forward 12+d6 or hide within 12. This is pretty key to Dominion use and I've been doing it for years. At least with this edition, you can make the choice after seizing. I remember a time when that wasn't true.
Ordana wrote: There is a reason no tournament should be using Hammer and Anvil deployment. It horribly favors shooting armies
Which is a fantastic reason to use it at least once in a tourney.
I'm having alot of luck with the following post-FAQ:
Saint with her 2x homies
2x Cannoness
3x min squads of:
Plasma pistol/chainsword sarge
Flame thrower
storm bolter
All riding in immolators with multi-meltas
1x squad of backline holders, usually flame thowers in a represser
3x Medics
Min squad of melta dominions in Immolator with multi melta
Seraphim with hand flamers
Heavy bolter retributers with flamer immolator (It never sticks around, there in case I need to protect them round 1 alpha)
Exorcist
Those medics are way helpful. I find myself still liking immolators over the repressor. (They shoot better and cost less...) If the repressor had the 12" immolator turret then maybe I'd take it more, melta infantry just don't have the range or the toughness to duke it out long term in the game.
Rynner wrote: Yes Dominions. I don't know anyone who has taken Repressors without Dominions. You can't hide from Basilisks/Manticores, etc...
I take them for double BSS as well as Doms. Also, unless your opponent is taking all Basilisks/Mants, hiding still provides you with more protection than not.
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deviantduck wrote: 1 - good luck hiding more than 1 repressor on any tournament table's terrain setup.
2 - if you hide your repressors you're completely eliminating the value of dominions and their scout moves. This just means that your repressors are beat up and still far away.
Everyday we're feeling the Index vs Codex disparity more and more.
Okay, I'm not sure where you play but tournaments have to provide good LOS blocking terrain or you're sunk whatever army you play.
That being said. You should be able to place your Repressors in such a way that your can either scout forward 12+d6 or hide within 12. This is pretty key to Dominion use and I've been doing it for years. At least with this edition, you can make the choice after seizing. I remember a time when that wasn't true.
Expect Adepticon didn't really have great LoS terrain and its one of the biggest events in the world.
Unless you start heavily investing in allies it's going to get harder and harder to win games with pure sisters. My current list is about 1008 points of sisters and 992 points of allies.
While I don't think the FAQ hurt us as much as other factions (I'm looking at you Tryainids) it certainly didn't do us any favors either.
Has doubling up BSS in Repressors worked for you? I've wanted to try it for awhile but I just haven't had a chance yet.
Rynner wrote: Yes Dominions. I don't know anyone who has taken Repressors without Dominions. You can't hide from Basilisks/Manticores, etc...
I take them for double BSS as well as Doms. Also, unless your opponent is taking all Basilisks/Mants, hiding still provides you with more protection than not.
I've been running 1 repressor with 2x BSS, and 2 repressors with 1 melta dom, and 1 BSS (the BSS start outside of the transport, scout move up, then embark before it moves top of 1)
deviantduck wrote: 1 - good luck hiding more than 1 repressor on any tournament table's terrain setup.
2 - if you hide your repressors you're completely eliminating the value of dominions and their scout moves. This just means that your repressors are beat up and still far away.
Everyday we're feeling the Index vs Codex disparity more and more.
Okay, I'm not sure where you play but tournaments have to provide good LOS blocking terrain or you're sunk whatever army you play.
That being said. You should be able to place your Repressors in such a way that your can either scout forward 12+d6 or hide within 12. This is pretty key to Dominion use and I've been doing it for years. At least with this edition, you can make the choice after seizing. I remember a time when that wasn't true.
LVO has decent terrain, Adepticon was laughable sparse. This tourney had a couple tables you could hide repressors, but for the most part the central LOS blocking terrain couldn't hide more than 1 repressor.
Rynner wrote: Expect Adepticon didn't really have great LoS terrain and its one of the biggest events in the world.
Unless you start heavily investing in allies it's going to get harder and harder to win games with pure sisters. My current list is about 1008 points of sisters and 992 points of allies.
While I don't think the FAQ hurt us as much as other factions (I'm looking at you Tryainids) it certainly didn't do us any favors either.
Has doubling up BSS in Repressors worked for you? I've wanted to try it for awhile but I just haven't had a chance yet.
Yeah Adepticon is kind of known as being on planet bowling ball.
deviantduck wrote: I've been running 1 repressor with 2x BSS, and 2 repressors with 1 melta dom, and 1 BSS (the BSS start outside of the transport, scout move up, then embark before it moves top of 1)
I know the FAQ rules allow this. It just makes no sense in my head that the FAQ allows a unit to move, embark, then move in the vehicle as well.
Post FAQ I am running Celestine and friends with four 5 strong BSS with 3 SB's doubled up in Repressors and three 5 strong Dom squads with a SB on the Superior and 4 meltaguns each in a Repressor. Outrider detachment requires a second Canoness to get two IF Seraphim squads on the table. One Canoness is camping with an Imagifer and HB Rets while the second is riding in a Repressor with another Imagifer and a SB Celestian squad.
Going second hasn't changed a lot, but I have been able to take advantage of the new embark rule to use the 2nd Imagifer to take a stab at giving an AoF to a Seraphim squad turn 1 then hop in and accompany the BSS and the rest up behind the Melta Doms. Small perk, but it does allow for 1st turn and even midfield midgame AoF shenannigans. Something at least.
I don't know about the FAQ to which dracpanzer refers. I play it based off the rulebook. The only restriction under the Transport section is models have to disembark before it moves. It doesn't restrict moving after embarking so it is by default allowed.
It works, but leaves you vulnerable if you go 2nd. So if you can hide your BSS out of LoS then it works safely. The repressors are so long with the dozer that when you scout up 12", it's still roughly 6 away from the BSS. They only have to get within 3" to embark. Even with scout+advance you're close enough for the BSS to reliably embark. I take Doms (4x melta, 1x SB) and BSS (3x SB, 2x B). It's obviously not as good as 2x Doms in there, but the tears have dried and it's time to move on.
I played a game early 8th when Razorback spam was a thing and i was still playing with vehicles.
I had 6 Immolators all line up butt to front to completely LoS block my many units of Ret HB's (6 units) and it worked great. So you can make your own LoS if you have vehicle heavy.
PS yes i beat the razorback spam, it wasnt that hard actually, Celestine took one out each turn basically and the 6 Ret HBs took 2 out a turn (I have imagifiers for more shots with Canoness for re-roll ones).
deviantduck wrote: I don't know about the FAQ to which dracpanzer refers. I play it based off the rulebook. The only restriction under the Transport section is models have to disembark before it moves. It doesn't restrict moving after embarking so it is by default allowed.
It might just be a local thing, but the FAQ at least put the argument (again perhaps only local) to rest about it. I know that I have played it as not allowed while getting games in while traveling, at least for my own army. Seems we were self nerfing, but the FAQ apparently made us stop?
deviantduck wrote: I don't know about the FAQ to which dracpanzer refers. I play it based off the rulebook. The only restriction under the Transport section is models have to disembark before it moves. It doesn't restrict moving after embarking so it is by default allowed.
It might just be a local thing, but the FAQ at least put the argument (again perhaps only local) to rest about it. I know that I have played it as not allowed while getting games in while traveling, at least for my own army. Seems we were self nerfing, but the FAQ apparently made us stop?
Still no clue what you're talking about. Transports are only mentioned in the Big FAQ in the new deployment rule which revolves around counting them as a unit. There aren't any movement restrictions addressed.
On a similar note, I got in my head somewhere that in addition to Smite's WC now increasing with each attempt, I though the initial WC went down to 4. Did I imagine that?
Also, is it just me, or does that make our 6-on-a-d6 Deny even more useless?
I have yet to make a single deny on a 6+. Though the sample is small as they usually fail or roll higher than a 6 to begin with when casting. Our deny anything on a 4+ however is gold. The increasing difficulty for Smite will just hopefully lead to less of them coming your way.
dracpanzer wrote: I have yet to make a single deny on a 6+. Though the sample is small as they usually fail or roll higher than a 6 to begin with when casting. Our deny anything on a 4+ however is gold. The increasing difficulty for Smite will just hopefully lead to less of them coming your way.
My best was against Tsons in a tourney last October. Denied 3/8 smites on a 6. He was pissy. It's still a wonky mechanic, though. Being forced to take a battalion does open up more CP for the 4+ stratagem which is nice.
So with Anvil Industry's 'I can't believe it's not SOB' KS going on I thought I'd take the plunge on a sisters army
I'm planning on starting out with 2 10 woman squads, a retributor squad with heavy bolters and some celestians to escort my HQ.
I have a couple rhino chassis vehicles that I'd held onto from other projects. I don't know about turning them into repressors since I don't have a lot of spare bits lying around. Are stock rhinos going to cut it?
Hey all, dusting off some death cultists, crusaders and Arco flaggellants I have from my.old grey Knight codex... How do you all use them? Are they any good this edition?
Smotejob wrote: Hey all, dusting off some death cultists, crusaders and Arco flaggellants I have from my.old grey Knight codex... How do you all use them? Are they any good this edition?
Buy the index with their rules and Download the warhammer Rules Primer
They all are fine for melee units. I use Acros every game, 9+priest
Smotejob wrote: Hey all, dusting off some death cultists, crusaders and Arco flaggellants I have from my.old grey Knight codex... How do you all use them? Are they any good this edition?
I have some experience of being in the recieving end of arco flagellants. With a priest they are really good at killing stuff with low armour saves.
9 Arco flagellants with the War Hymns buff will do an average of 48 S5 hits.
ScarletRose wrote: So with Anvil Industry's 'I can't believe it's not SOB' KS going on I thought I'd take the plunge on a sisters army
I'm planning on starting out with 2 10 woman squads, a retributor squad with heavy bolters and some celestians to escort my HQ.
I have a couple rhino chassis vehicles that I'd held onto from other projects. I don't know about turning them into repressors since I don't have a lot of spare bits lying around. Are stock rhinos going to cut it?
You can get some 3d printed parts off of Shapeways to turn your Rhinos into convincing Repressors.
Considering Rhinos are also an option in the index it's a little wonky to call them Repressors in anything other than friendly games where proxies are ok.
And Celestians aren't much use in their current form, for the points Dominions or BSS are a better pick.
Smotejob wrote: Hey all, dusting off some death cultists, crusaders and Arco flaggellants I have from my.old grey Knight codex... How do you all use them? Are they any good this edition?
Can't speak on how good they are, but something you need to be aware of that I think some of us missed in CA2017, something that compounds Rule of 3 for us as well:
Any detachment that includes Ministorum units that are not also Adepta Sororitas units -- that being DCA, Crusaders, Priests, Jacobus and Penitent Engines -- loses access to Objective Secured as CA2017 lists Adepta Sororitas, not Adeptus Ministorum as the faction that gains Ob Sec and the requirement is that it has to be an Adepta Sororitas detachment, not an Adeptus Ministorum detachment.
Also, if none of your detachments are Adepta Sororitas - meaning you don't have at least one detachment where every unit has the Adepta Sororitas keyword, OR your only Adepta Sororitas detachment is an Auxiliary Support detachment, then you can't use either of the Stratagems from CA2017.
That's right, folks. Include a unit of Penitent Engines or a single Priest in a detachment that's otherwise Sisters of Battle, you lose Objective Secured for that detachment and if it's your only detachment with Sisters in it you lose access to the stratagems as well.
Why does this compound Ro3?
Adepta Sororitas units by slot:
HQ: 2 - Canoness, Celestine (max 4)
Elites: 6 - Dialogus, Imagifier, Hospitaller, Celestians, Mistress of Repentia, Repentia (max 18)
Fast Attack: 2 - Seraphim, Dominions (max 6)
Heavy Support: 2 - Retributors, Exorcists (max 6)
Flyers: 0 (all have other keywords)
Bring a brigade of Sisters, you can bring at most one other detachment of pure Sisters because of our only other HQ choice being Jacobus.
Bring a battalion of Sisters, you can potentially squeeze in two more detachments depending on what they are.
Want to bring a Supreme Command detachment? It better be from another faction, otherwise you get one detachment that is neither a Brigade nor Battalion -- unless you include Jacobus in the Supreme Command detachment, then you can bring a Battalion.
Flyers? Soup rule prevents us from bringing less than 3 now unless we want to lose CP to do so.
dracpanzer wrote: The new Battle Brothers rule does apply to Adeptus Ministorum units being unavailable in a SoB detachment though.
That's not true.
BATTLE BROTHERS
All of the units in each Detachment in your Battle-forged army must have at least one Faction keyword in common. In addition, this keyword cannot
be Chaos, Imperium, Aeldari, Ynnari or Tyranids, unless the Detachment in question is a Fortification Network. This has no effect on your
Army Faction.
They share Adeptus Ministorum.
You're thinking of the Ob Sec rule, which says you have to have Adepta Sororitas.
Amishprn86 wrote: 8th isnt 7th, dont compare the two, in 8th only Troops have ObjSec unless a rule says otherwise, and so far thats only Custodes.
That isn't what I'm saying at all.
Chapter Approved gave Adepta Sororitas, Space Wolves, Orks and Harlequins (as well as other factions that now have codexes but didn't at the time) objective secured for troops choices if the entire detachment shares one of those keywords. Adeptus Ministorum, however, is not one of those keywords so we do not get objective secured for Troops in any detachment that includes Adeptus Ministorum units as that Detachment is now an Adeptus Ministorum Detachment, not an Adepta Sororitas Detachment. Page 88, left column, Chapter Approved 2017.
As for the stratagems, page 89 states you must have an Adepta Sororitas detachment that is not auxiliary support to be able to use the two stratagems listed.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Basically what I'm saying is if you want to bring priests, Jacobus, DCA, Crusaders and Penitent Engineers, being then in a detachment that contains no Troops choices or your BSSs in that detachment lose Obs Sec because the detachment becomes Ministorum, not Sororitas.
Amishprn86 wrote: 8th isnt 7th, dont compare the two, in 8th only Troops have ObjSec unless a rule says otherwise, and so far thats only Custodes.
That isn't what I'm saying at all.
Chapter Approved gave Adepta Sororitas, Space Wolves, Orks and Harlequins (as well as other factions that now have codexes but didn't at the time) objective secured for troops choices if the entire detachment shares one of those keywords. Adeptus Ministorum, however, is not one of those keywords so we do not get objective secured for Troops in any detachment that includes Adeptus Ministorum units as that Detachment is now an Adeptus Ministorum Detachment, not an Adepta Sororitas Detachment. Page 88, left column, Chapter Approved 2017.
As for the stratagems, page 89 states you must have an Adepta Sororitas detachment that is not auxiliary support to be able to use the two stratagems listed.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Basically what I'm saying is if you want to bring priests, Jacobus, DCA, Crusaders and Penitent Engineers, being then in a detachment that contains no Troops choices or your BSSs in that detachment lose Obs Sec because the detachment becomes Ministorum, not Sororitas.
Ok i get what you are saying now, yeah that sucks.
dracpanzer wrote: The new Battle Brothers rule does apply to Adeptus Ministorum units being unavailable in a SoB detachment though.
That's not true.
BATTLE BROTHERS
All of the units in each Detachment in your Battle-forged army must have at least one Faction keyword in common. In addition, this keyword cannot
be Chaos, Imperium, Aeldari, Ynnari or Tyranids, unless the Detachment in question is a Fortification Network. This has no effect on your
Army Faction.
They share Adeptus Ministorum.
You're thinking of the Ob Sec rule, which says you have to have Adepta Sororitas.
And Strategems. So if you want an SoB detachment to get all their rules, your Ministorum stuff needs to be in its own detachment. If you want to lose the strategems and obsec, you can bring Sisters into your Ministorum detachment. Right?
This is a 40k tactica thread on Dakka. "Fun" has no place here. /s
Also Acolyte Hybrids do the same job as Flagellants, but cost roughly half what Flaggos do and can be Ambushed into position instead of being shot off the table before they get chance to charge anything . Penitengines are okay I suppose, but there are still better options available to Sisters, even before accounting for the fact they deny access to Strats.
Flagellants have done well for me in the past but 9 guys, with a priest, and a rhino is really pricey. For their cost and the fact that they generally need their own detachment now makes them a less attractive choice.
If you don't care about either obsec or Stratagems then great, take them, but if you it's not worth the detachment for them alone when there are allies out there who can fill a similar role while proving more to the army over all.
dracpanzer wrote: And Strategems. So if you want an SoB detachment to get all their rules, your Ministorum stuff needs to be in its own detachment. If you want to lose the strategems and obsec, you can bring Sisters into your Ministorum detachment. Right?
You still get the stratagems as long as you bring at least one Sisters detachment that isn't an Auxiliary Support detachment. And if you really want Ministorum units, you can always bring, say, a Spearhead detachment that has no Battle Sister Squads but includes Penitent Engines. Want Priests and Crusaders? Maybe bring an Imperial Guard detachment since they DO have the Astra Militarum keyword.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BBAP wrote: This is a 40k tactica thread on Dakka. "Fun" has no place here. /s
Also Acolyte Hybrids do the same job as Flagellants, but cost roughly half what Flaggos do and can be Ambushed into position instead of being shot off the table before they get chance to charge anything . Penitengines are okay I suppose, but there are still better options available to Sisters, even before accounting for the fact they deny access to Strats.
They don't deny access to strats as long as you take at least one Sisters detachment. Seriously, all you need is a single Sisters detachment that isn't Auxiliary Support and you get the stratagems.
This is a spit ball list I posted elsewhere for the hell of it. It gets access to both Sisters and Space Marine stratagems:
Sisters of Battle Outrider Detachment: [52PL, 764 pts]
HQ
-Celestine, the Living Saint: [14PL, 250 pts]
* 2 Geminae Superia
Fast Attack
-5 Dominions: [5PL, 60 pts]
* 5 Storm bolters, chainsword
-5 Dominions: [5PL, 60 pts]
* 5 Storm bolters, chainsword
-5 Dominions: [5PL, 60 pts]
* 5 Storm bolters, chainsword
-6 Seraphim: [8PL, 109 pts]
* Plasma pistol, 4x Inferno Pistols
Heavy Support
-6 Retributors aka the Easy-Bake Oven: [10PL, 122 pts]
* 4 Heavy flamers, chainsword
Dedicated Transport
-Immolator: [5PL, 103 pts]
* Immolation Flamer
That 400 points spent on Guilliman? I could throw them into 400 points of a Spearhead Ministorum detachment with Penitent Engines if I wanted and would still get the Sisters stratagems because I have the Outrider detachment that's pure SoB.
Yeah, but why would you take Guilliman out of an army for the sake of Penitengines? Guilliman brings a lot more to the table than they do. Also if we're doing combi-Sisters now, for the same 400pts you could bring a Spearhead with 3 Basilisks and a triple-Mortar HWS and a Lord Commissar or Psyker or something.
It seems like you're pushing really hard to find room for these AdMin units - which is fine, because it's your money at the end of the day, but fitting them in isn't a good idea simply because it can be done. IMHO they'd fit better in an AM infantry horde, where the Priests aren't a total waste of time, than they do in a Sisters army.
It was an example, not something I'm actively going to do.
A few people seemed to misinterpret part of what I said as "if you bring any Ministorum units you lose access to the stratagems." I was trying to illustrate that their line of thinking is only true if:
1. the only Sister unit they bring is Auxiliary Support OR
2. they have 0 "pure Sisters" detachments
Trust me, that list doesn't benefit at all from AdMin. Guilliman is there to recycle CP as warlord, especially those used on SftS, and provide some buffs.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Slight correction. He's also there to be a single unit 18 PL drop so I can deploy as few units as possible while putting as many into reserve as possible between SftS and Issodon. It's also why the Seraphim and Retributor squads are 6 models: 20 points for 9 PL.
Taikishi wrote: It was an example, not something I'm actively going to do.
The point stands with more or less anything you could bring in place of Penitengines, is what I'm saying.
My thrust is this: the whole AdMin army list (with the exception of SoB) is poorly designed and inefficiently costed. Penitengines were a borderline exception, until it transpired you had to give up a detachment to bring them if you wanted access to Strats for your Sisters. Now you have to give up a detachment to include them or lose access to Strats, and they're just not worth that kind of investment IMHO.
Taikishi wrote: It was an example, not something I'm actively going to do.
The point stands with more or less anything you could bring in place of Penitengines, is what I'm saying.
My thrust is this: the whole AdMin army list (with the exception of SoB) is poorly designed and inefficiently costed. Penitengines were a borderline exception, until it transpired you had to give up a detachment to bring them if you wanted access to Strats for your Sisters. Now you have to give up a detachment to include them or lose access to Strats, and they're just not worth that kind of investment IMHO.
In spite of this, Sisters have still done very well competitively. And I'm not just talking about the 'throw Celestine in a Soup' lists. They have done significantly better than most other index-only armies in the ITC.
I like to think of it this way... each Act of Faith that goes of gives me the equivalent of 3 more Command Points. That is how much other armies pay for each of their extra phase strategems. So with Celestine, we get a bonus of 6 CP per turn. We've seen how hard Ynnari got the Nerf for basically the same thing.
We get access to one of the best flammers in the game, and we can have almost as many of them as we want... because it is on a dedicated transport.
Many of our units can have 5 special weapons or 4 heavy weapons with only 5 bodies! Sure, we cannot spam them to the point we used to, so we just have to make better use of our troops choice.
As others have pointed out, pure Sisters are in a weird place right now. There are some pretty bizarre restrictions on us for list building right now. Those restrictions build creativity in both list design and tactics.
Taikishi wrote: It was an example, not something I'm actively going to do.
The point stands with more or less anything you could bring in place of Penitengines, is what I'm saying.
My thrust is this: the whole AdMin army list (with the exception of SoB) is poorly designed and inefficiently costed. Penitengines were a borderline exception, until it transpired you had to give up a detachment to bring them if you wanted access to Strats for your Sisters. Now you have to give up a detachment to include them or lose access to Strats, and they're just not worth that kind of investment IMHO.
In spite of this, Sisters have still done very well competitively. And I'm not just talking about the 'throw Celestine in a Soup' lists. They have done significantly better than most other index-only armies in the ITC.
I like to think of it this way... each Act of Faith that goes of gives me the equivalent of 3 more Command Points. That is how much other armies pay for each of their extra phase strategems. So with Celestine, we get a bonus of 6 CP per turn. We've seen how hard Ynnari got the Nerf for basically the same thing.
We get access to one of the best flammers in the game, and we can have almost as many of them as we want... because it is on a dedicated transport.
Many of our units can have 5 special weapons or 4 heavy weapons with only 5 bodies! Sure, we cannot spam them to the point we used to, so we just have to make better use of our troops choice.
As others have pointed out, pure Sisters are in a weird place right now. There are some pretty bizarre restrictions on us for list building right now. Those restrictions build creativity in both list design and tactics.
Even with the FAQ I can still win or at least compete for the win in all my games with an overwhelming majority of my points being spent on Sisters. I think they still work, just how you have to play them/build your list changes.
Rynner wrote: Even with the FAQ I can still win or at least compete for the win in all my games with an overwhelming majority of my points being spent on Sisters. I think they still work, just how you have to play them/build your list changes.
This is me too, with about 400-600 of non-Sisters in a 2k list. Running pure Sisters without FW I'm way below 50/50.
I haven’t run them post FAQ, but The Rule of 3 won’t affect my list at all so I still feel pretty confident. I play in a casual competitive environment, 2 of our guys regularly attend tournaments and the other 4 make solid lists and play well, but they aren’t out to harvest skulls. The Sisters have gone undefeated in 8th, but they haven’t faced the top tier Eldar tournament list in my group. On paper it looks even IF I can manage to go first. If anything I feel like the FAQ made them better because I wasn’t spamming Dominions and Seraphim, I wasn’t deep striking anything, and my back line isn’t as concerned with being mobbed turn 1 by Bloodletters and Tsangors.
Taikishi wrote: It was an example, not something I'm actively going to do.
The point stands with more or less anything you could bring in place of Penitengines, is what I'm saying.
My thrust is this: the whole AdMin army list (with the exception of SoB) is poorly designed and inefficiently costed. Penitengines were a borderline exception, until it transpired you had to give up a detachment to bring them if you wanted access to Strats for your Sisters. Now you have to give up a detachment to include them or lose access to Strats, and they're just not worth that kind of investment IMHO.
In spite of this, Sisters have still done very well competitively.
... hence me saying they were an exception. I've emphasised it in my original post for those who missed it. It's difficult to go wrong with power armour, bolters, meltaguns and transports, especially when you can generate half a dozen extra actions per game turn - and IMHO you don't really need the transports, although footsloggers seem to work best in a soup rather than as a standalone army.
tl;dr - Sisters are great. The rest of the AdMin army list is not worth looking at.
I have a pure Sisters list as I have always had and it does extremely well. I will say though that it is somewhat antagonizing to see the dead pile after games. No matter the win, I lose a crap ton of my army doing it. Makes for high drama but you know I sure would like it to be a prettier win sometimes.
Hey guys, I'm thinking of putting together a SoB detachment to support my blood angels, mostly as an excuse to use Celestine and collect some nice old models. Any advice on where to go with about 800 points worth?
fatbudda319 wrote: Hey guys, I'm thinking of putting together a SoB detachment to support my blood angels, mostly as an excuse to use Celestine and collect some nice old models. Any advice on where to go with about 800 points worth?
An outrider detatchment with Celestine, a Seraphim squad and a couple Dominion units in Repressors is a good group.
fatbudda319 wrote: Hey guys, I'm thinking of putting together a SoB detachment to support my blood angels, mostly as an excuse to use Celestine and collect some nice old models. Any advice on where to go with about 800 points worth?
An outrider detatchment with Celestine, a Seraphim squad and a couple Dominion units in Repressors is a good group.
Jancoran wrote: I have a pure Sisters list as I have always had and it does extremely well. I will say though that it is somewhat antagonizing to see the dead pile after games. No matter the win, I lose a crap ton of my army doing it. Makes for high drama but you know I sure would like it to be a prettier win sometimes.
My pure Sisters force has been running at 50/50 on wins versus loses, which is just fine and has made for some interesting games and not one has resulted in the tabling of an opponent in early turns.
Actually, I'd be curious where everyone's win ratios lie under various circumstances. I suspect there a pattern, and I think we can prove it. I think I can ask this without regard to the FAQ, although I know that threw a few lists off.
In 8th edition at 2k, how's your record with and without Forge World and allies? Mine looks about like this:
Sisters (majority of force) plus allies (various): 75%
Pure Sisters, no Forge World: 40%
Pure Sisters, with Forge World: building my first Repressors now...
Sisters Majority - 75%
Pure Sisters, No Forgeworld - I don't know, never tried it.
Pure Sisters with Forgeworld - 65%-85%, the last time I did it was right after Chapter Approved in a Chaos infantry heavy meta.
Sisters with Allies - never tried it
Pure Sisters without Forgeworld pre FAQ - 15ish games in local primarily Index meta - 100%
Pure Sisters with Forgeworld pre FAQ - 100+ games competitive meta local or on work travel - 85-90%
Pure Sisters with Forgeworld post FAQ - 14 games competitive meta local or on work travel - 65-70%
"At the AdeptiCon Studio Seminar, we revealed that Sisters of Battle are on their way. We promised you we’d keep you updated and take you on this army’s journey from design to release. Now, as promised, we can finally show you just what the new generation of Adepta Sororitas is going to look like.
The classic gothic design of the Sisters of Battle is, to be frank, awesome, and with the new range, the design studio hasn’t been trying to change that – instead, we’ve gone back to the original art and looked at how we can truly bring it to life using cutting edge design technology. The first model of the new generation of Sisters of Battle is based – almost detail-for-detail – on some of the most iconic Sisters of Battle art ever made, and you can expect the rest of the army to follow the classic design cues you know and love.
We’ve pushed our designers to the limit with these new models, and this first Battle Sister is the perfect example of that – she’s got everything from ragged purity seals, rosaries and charms, to precise mechanical details on the bolter and power armour that has been lavishly realised. The scenic base alone is an awesome piece in its own right. We think it’s safe to say that if you’re a Sororitas fan, the wait has been well worth it.
This Battle Sister will be the first you’ll be able to get your hands on, a special preview release ahead of the main wave to make the wait a little bit more bearable. We can’t say when just yet, but stay tuned to Warhammer Community to find out as soon as we have a date."
Unfortunately, I didn't get to see any seminars. I tried, but even though it was quieter today, they filled up quite quick. However, I did manage to talk to a few staff.
Robin Cruddace wrote:
Spoke to him about the situation with Inquistion, regarding the Beta rules. He has said it's on GW's radar, and most likely a Codex or Index like book will deal with those issues once it's their turn. Sisters, are definitely getting their OWN book. Ministorum will most likely be in it too (which makes sense to a degree), and he has said he's very pleased about the reaction to the render of the Sisters model, is excited himself as one of two he remembers who has a Sisters army in the GW team. He said that the rule book when it comes will, hopefully be designed in such a way that it takes things into account for the future, rather than being a retread of what they have now. I mentioned about hoping that Celestians and Penitent Engines are given some love, and that the general consensus between Sisters players is, we want the Jump pack Canoness back and a new HQ like a Palatine. He mentioned that most of the time, models are produced first (with some consulting with the rules designers for weapon ideas etc), then the rules are written. Mostly. He also said that he wants to get the Acts of Faith rules fixed, working fluffily and to add flavour to the various Orders etc.
Speaking of that 3d render, I spoke to Darren Latham, who created her. He was really pleased with how well she has been received.
fatbudda319 wrote: Hey guys, I'm thinking of putting together a SoB detachment to support my blood angels, mostly as an excuse to use Celestine and collect some nice old models. Any advice on where to go with about 800 points worth?
An outrider detatchment with Celestine, a Seraphim squad and a couple Dominion units in Repressors is a good group.
fatbudda319 wrote: Hey guys, I'm thinking of putting together a SoB detachment to support my blood angels, mostly as an excuse to use Celestine and collect some nice old models. Any advice on where to go with about 800 points worth?
An outrider detatchment with Celestine, a Seraphim squad and a couple Dominion units in Repressors is a good group.
Flamers average 3.5 hits per, Stormbolters average 2.64 hits per in rapid fire range. So if you're going to be up close and personal like Dominions often are with their scout moves, and you have some points to burn, then it's not a bad choice.
In this case he asked for an 800pt detatchment, there weren't enough points for meltas in both squads, so it was either flamers, a couple spare Seraphim, or dual heavy flamers on the Repressors and some unused spare points.
But I agree, Stormbolters are often a default for me as well due to the cost. However with the reduction on the number of Dominion squads I'm trying to get better weapons on them to improve their damage output.
madhatter00o wrote: I’m curious about the use of flamers here. I usually run storm bolters. Is there a reason flamers might be preferable to SB?
I try to squeeze in a combi-flamer on a Canoness when I can... it doesn't feel right to not run the Holy Trinity in some capacity. In general, they don't seem to be worth the points. Two units of heavy flamer Rets in a Rhino are good for a laugh, just not a cost effective one.
I love that new model. She is much better than the other one they did.
Though I also don't like the art the other one is based off of compared to the art this one is based off of, for pretty much the same reason I like this one a lot better than the other one.
"At the AdeptiCon Studio Seminar, we revealed that Sisters of Battle are on their way. We promised you we’d keep you updated and take you on this army’s journey from design to release. Now, as promised, we can finally show you just what the new generation of Adepta Sororitas is going to look like.
The classic gothic design of the Sisters of Battle is, to be frank, awesome, and with the new range, the design studio hasn’t been trying to change that – instead, we’ve gone back to the original art and looked at how we can truly bring it to life using cutting edge design technology. The first model of the new generation of Sisters of Battle is based – almost detail-for-detail – on some of the most iconic Sisters of Battle art ever made, and you can expect the rest of the army to follow the classic design cues you know and love.
We’ve pushed our designers to the limit with these new models, and this first Battle Sister is the perfect example of that – she’s got everything from ragged purity seals, rosaries and charms, to precise mechanical details on the bolter and power armour that has been lavishly realised. The scenic base alone is an awesome piece in its own right. We think it’s safe to say that if you’re a Sororitas fan, the wait has been well worth it.
This Battle Sister will be the first you’ll be able to get your hands on, a special preview release ahead of the main wave to make the wait a little bit more bearable. We can’t say when just yet, but stay tuned to Warhammer Community to find out as soon as we have a date."
I for one am very glad GW appears to be keeping the same style for the plastics. Especially as a collector who has a fully painted metal SoB army already.
She looks just about perfect to me. I assume this model is mono pose, but if they build the sets with the same aesthetic I will be one happy heretic hunter. (Because I too have a fully painted metal mob.)
MacPhail wrote: Actually, I'd be curious where everyone's win ratios lie under various circumstances. I suspect there a pattern, and I think we can prove it. I think I can ask this without regard to the FAQ, although I know that threw a few lists off.
In 8th edition at 2k, how's your record with and without Forge World and allies? Mine looks about like this:
Sisters (majority of force) plus allies (various): 75%
Pure Sisters, no Forge World: 40%
Pure Sisters, with Forge World: building my first Repressors now...
I win about 80%. I use no allies so i cannot provide the number for that. it's been a while since my last loss, using them. it was Astra Militarum that defeated them last because i simply could not keep up with as much armor as he brought. I killed a large amount of melta but his Crusaders were incredibly durable and excellent at eliminating my Sisters after the tanks popped. I also did lose to an Eldar player, on a Relic mission no less, using Celestine. Normally that would almost be an auto win. turns out the three Snipers I forgot to charge ended up doing 4 wounds on 3 shots and Dropped Celestinefor the second time. Ugh. And Celestine the round before had utterly failed to finish off a tank that was contesting an objective so it was curtains for me.
Other than those two losses, they have done exceedingly well and my comfort level with them has grown. I only get 4 Command Points in my force, and that's an issue.
Like i said the dead pile is pretty big after every game win or lose which is the daunting piece of the puzzle.
I play in a non-competitive environment. Currently sitting at 90% success rate. About 20 games. 2 losses- Ynnari and Death Watch, although i personally dont count them as i literally could not roll higher than a 3 on the dice in those game and my opponents dice were on fire.
I primarily run pure sisters but throw in a knight if opponent want a 2.5k game.
Most of the time my dead pile is quite small. Theres only been one game against Blood Angels where we were tit for tat and only had a handful of models left on the field.
Haven't had a chance to play post FAQ, though i dont anticipate these numbers changing, as i said, non-competitive environment, so we never really saw any spam.
My daughter has decided to read the rules for Warhammer 40,000 and play the Sisters of Battle! So if any of you have a good, really competitive list you think she should try, let me know. I'd like her landing in 40K to be a soft and victorious one!
I know my style of course but as a new player, she doesn't have one so... She can probably learn any style. She's a Junior at UW and has like a 3.8 GPA so she is smart enough to ultimately figure it out but I dont want her to lose a lot and be discouraged if you see what I mean.
Depends on how big games she wants to do and how much you want to fork out and if youre wanting to wait for plastic or not.
If you dont want to wait for plastic, get your hands on battle sisters either from ebay or from GW. It doesnt matter what you get as part of the magic of sisters is their models are identical across the line (battle sisters, celestians, dominions, retributors) so she'll have the flexibility to do any units she feels like.
Get plenty of meltagun sisters and other special/heavy weapon ones. Some people here will swear by storm bolters but to each their own.
Grab Celestine because shes an amazing model with great rules and grab yourself a Cannoness.
My suggested startinh point would be to go for a battalion. So at least 3x5 sister squads with your choice of extra weapons (i personally go with meltagun and heavy flamer).
The Cannoness and Celestine will round it off.
Get a few immolators for the sister squads and she'll be in a good place.
Sprinkle in a squad of Seraphim for some extra teeth (always give them inferno pistols).
Heres a list of what ive mentioned. Its based off WYSIWYG metal models.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Depends on how big games she wants to do and how much you want to fork out and if youre wanting to wait for plastic or not.
If you dont want to wait for plastic, get your hands on battle sisters either from ebay or from GW. It doesnt matter what you get as part of the magic of sisters is their models are identical across the line (battle sisters, celestians, dominions, retributors) so she'll have the flexibility to do any units she feels like.
Get plenty of meltagun sisters and other special/heavy weapon ones. Some people here will swear by storm bolters but to each their own.
Grab Celestine because shes an amazing model with great rules and grab yourself a Cannoness.
My suggested startinh point would be to go for a battalion. So at least 3x5 sister squads with your choice of extra weapons (i personally go with meltagun and heavy flamer).
The Cannoness and Celestine will round it off.
Get a few immolators for the sister squads and she'll be in a good place.
Sprinkle in a squad of Seraphim for some extra teeth (always give them inferno pistols).
Heres a list of what ive mentioned. Its based off WYSIWYG metal models.
That is a perfectly fine starting point for 1000 point games. She shouldnt have too much trouble with that list.
I own enormous stores of this army. =) suggest anything you want to, I can field it.
So the army contents will present little, if any, challenge for me. I'm just looking for something she can play competitively right away. I tend to play a more subtle game, and a more defused risk portfolio so to speak but that's me. teaching a little patience and subtlty will happen later. Right now she just needs to smash some fools.
At 1k points, I would go outrider with Doms mounted up and Seraphim to back up Celestine. Vanguard holds up well at 1k with little conflict with the rule of 3.
A week later and I have time again to relate the fantastic performance of the Brigade of Sisters I brought to the 2018 Ambassadorial tournament, (As T.O.'d by Jancoran) where I won absolutely all of my games, as long as you don't count the first two.
First game was against Ad Mech with Cawl, two Onagers, four close-combat dunestrider walkers and... the shootiest shooty-bots to ever shoot skeet: 4 Kastellan Robots which fire so much that my opponent basically cleaned out the extra dice for sale at the event to have enough to roll in one go. He won the dice rolls to "Defend" and go first after I had to set up first which allowed him to line up his shots. And shoot, he did. Even played a Stratagem which made him unable to move for the rest of the game, but shoot his infinity-minus-one shots a second time.
Hey, that's MY army's schtick! Which I didn't get to use because no Heavy Bolter Retributors visible survived to take advantage of the Act of Faith. But on the plus side, I did get experience in moving two units of Seraphim twice to get them into their Inferno Pistol's half range for Melta before they died. Experience I would use later to actually win some games.
I think this mission would benefit from having the half of the army deployed chosen from Power Levels instead of number of units, kind of like the Big FAQ has for reserves/deepstrikers. One unit of 5 Power Level Skitarii Rangers off the table should not counterbalance 24 Power Levels of Shooty Bots of Shootiness Who Shoot Twice deployed on the table. If it's intended to be an asymmetrical scenario, then it should actually be an asymmetrical scenario.
He brought along a Chess Clock and once he'd finished his first turn (about 40 minutes, IIRC) the T.O. came by and told us to play faster. (snark field::ON) I'm sorry that my models aren't getting blown away quickly enough for you. (snark field::OFF) But because I have more models on the table (despite losing so many) it looks like I'm the one slow playing, despite having just started my first turn. Riiiiiiiiight....
For every player I played who did have a Chess Clock, I noticed our first turns were 40~50 minutes and all the other turns took time equivalent to each other, plus or minus a few minutes. And yet we still ended up in the 'Must Finish Turns' crush at the end of the game. Therefore, howzabout putting a half-hour time limit on a players first turn, deployment and so forth included, to put the 'Must Finish Turn' impetus at the beginning of the game where it might do more good than instead at the end.
Kind of like the bidding for deployment in Armageddon games. I caught several players by surprise by bidding 10 minutes to deploy 15,000 points of Orks, and with four Stompas before the official models came out, plus full vehicles and Telly-Porta units of 30 Grots in reserve (proud unit names of Da Speed-Bumpz, Da Sleepin' Poleez-Grotz, Da Tar Pit, and Da Distrakkshunz) along with Stormboyz and DeffKoptas also before the official models came out I had time left over.
Anyhoo, once "half" (in quotes because it was more like 75% of his points) his army destroyed what was actually half of my army in the top of the first turn, it was an uphill battle to gain any objective or win conditions aside from the one Onager I blew up in the first turn to gain my one (Count it! One! Yeah, baby!) point I earned in the entire mission. Still, it was one point more than others had earned in their missions so it dropped me right in the middle of the pack.
With time to spare to get a massage before lunch and the next game, of which I won all of, as you'll recall, as long as you don't count that last one or this one against Grey Knights.
(You do get that this Overwhelming Egotism is intended as a joke, right? Right.)
So I lost the roll to go first against Codex: Grandmasters in Dreadknight Armor and the upside is that I actually prevented two Smites in the game with my practically-every-unit-has-it Deny The Witch on a single d6 ability. Other than that, being able to only Deny one power per Psychic phase with a 1 CP Stratagem (plus another CP for the re-roll) meant that things like the Don't-need-to-see-you-to-shoot-you Psychic Power, Gate of Infinity, or Vortex of Doom were able to go off uncountered. In the parlance of noted philosophers Bill & Ted: it was "Munchy Up The Ying-Yang."
Despite getting almost completely tabled, I managed to score the secondary 'Get A Wounded Model Off The Table' objective with my last Imagifer basically so my opponent could also have the time to also score the secondary and position their army for maximum victory points and a million Charisma. That, along with Actually Killing Something my first turn meant that I had septupled my Victory points from the last game.
A pattern had been established. Therefore I only needed to score 49 points my next game to keep up the same rate of improvement. Sounds like the year end bonus structure I had in Sales. And also why I'm no longer in Sales.
Game three was against Orkzesez: Da Bastion Boyz, where I yet again failed to get first turn, but the board-wide +1 to cover meant I survived in pretty good condition. Or I got first turn and just didn't remember. Six of one, half dozen of the other.
So, the thing about Bastions, y'see is they're Toughness 9 and 30 wounds and don't like a unit with four Meltas shooting at them before the first turn with an Act of Faith. Bastions ALSO don't like another eight Melta shots from two units and taking a total of nineteen wounds so far. And what Bastions REALLY don't like is actually only having twenty total wounds, not thirty like you thought and losing that last wound (NOT to a Bolt Pistol, sad to say) and subsequently exploding in the bottom of the first turn. As for the unit of Lootas and Big Mek on top, dey wuz not havin' whut you'd call 'A Good Time' at that point. Same thing for Da Stormboyz who found out why three Immolators with Immolation Cannons within firing range was not a good portent for their survival.
His Battlewagon on the other side of the board also found out that two units of Seraphim moving really close before the first turn began due to Acts of Faith also allowed eight Inferno Pistols to come within Melta range. However, unlike the Bastion which was sundered by a Bakers Dozen of Melta shots, The Rust Bukket Uv Clanky Vengeance survived to Dakka another turn.
In his second turn Da Weirdboy managed to deposit a squad of Shoota Boyz on my flank by way of Da Jump (despite 1 CP to Deny and another CP for re-roll coming up unsuccessful) and Boyz bombastically bounced and boiled from the back uv da bed uv Da Battlewagon backed by bountiful Bikez (geez... alliteration, much?) to wreak shooty, choppy retribution on the Seraphim.
On my turn the skies cleared, the +1 save vs. shooting at greater than 12" went away, and proof of why a non-invulnerable 6+ save is no save at all in 8th Edition came again in the form of Act of Faith enabled shooting from three units of 4 Heavy Bolters before the start of my second turn, followed up by repeat shooting from those same units during my turn after movement and *Poof* no more Ork Boyz except for the ones who duffed over the Dialogus who yet again failed to commit suicide and unleash yet another Act of Faith on the left flank.
T3, 4 wounds, and 6+, 6++ save is more durable than I thought.
The Soopa Seekrit Sekkun-Dairy Ubbjekkitvv was revealed and Da Weirdoy was our spy, and Imagifer Miss Nott AnOrkNoReally was their spy amidst the Heavy Bolters of Dakka Tower. Pity the psychic git charged an Immolator and ended up ash on the breeze with the rest of the Orkzesez Melta'd or Bolter'd to death to win me the game, and my frist win of the weekend, sans Secondary, sad to say.
A long ride home due to construction through downtown Seattle had me putting kids to bed after they got home later than I did at 10 PM, hyped on Buffalo Wild Wings and sugary drinks for a fatigued battle about putting on pajamas, brushing teeth and a bedtime story to eventually flop into bed at 11 PM myself.
I got there early and waited to begin the next day faced off against a beautifully painted Successor Chapter of Blood Angels (playing Orkzesez, I know how difficult it is to pull off neat, visually consistent areas of Black & White Checker Board pattern and good looking Yellow on Ye Olde Flying Land Raider is a high bar to clear).
He got first turn and I managed to Vanguard Scout two Melta Dominion filled Immolators close enough to be a tempting target for the previously mentioned Ye Olde Flying Land Raider to drop off the closest thing to 'SuperFriends' directly in front of them, but they survived pretty much intact. In my turn Eight Meltas backed up by Eight Inferno Pistols all within Melta range made short work of Ye Olde Flying Land Raider, despite the -1 to hit due to pre-start of turn Act of Faith enabled shooting by the Dominions, and double movement for Seraphim to get close enough to unload in Melta range again during the first turn shooting phase itself.
Things quagmired there as I was able to prevent key psychic powers buffing his Death Guard and completely steamrolling the more bodies than successful attacks he could liberally dish out in the area while I brought up Rhinos full of reinforcements to get smacked down in their turn. His scouts and Land Raider hung back to deliver death at range while The Sanguinor and friends dropped in to deal death up close and personal.
This took around an hour and a half, about average with the games with people who had Chess Clocks to measure their and my first turns, if a little on the long side.
That being said:
Me having more units and models on the table is not me slow playing.
Taking time to look up your rules in your Codex is not me slow playing.
Asking 'What's the minus AP for a Heavy Bolter for the third or fourth time is not me slow playing.
Telling me your Scouts rolled a Six which is a Mortal Wound which means no Save word for word every single time you roll a six for each unit is not me slow playing.
Regaling me with yet another story not about this game, back in the day where you had an onion tied to your belt, which was the fashion at the time, yadda, yadda, yadda is not me slow playing.
Asking me to repeat 'Three saves at minus four, two regular saves' over crowd noise a second time is not me slow playing.
Me disembarking a unit from a transport, embarking a different unit in that transport, and that transport driving away to get my remaining Fast Attack choice out of harm's way and you taking time to look up in the rulebook, AND call over the T.O. to find out that, yes, that is legal is not me slow playing.
But, after two and a half turns having time for shorter round being called by the T.O., and thus shifting into 'No Small Talk' mode, and you still take time to launch into yet another story or read your psychic power off the card verbatim, or ask what the minus AP of a Heavy Bolter is yet again, yes, I will become curt in my responses. Brusque, even.
But when you dispute a dice roll, I offer to re-roll, repeat it to get over crowd noise, that is not me 'Yelling in your face' about dice rolls and is not me slow playing.
My advancing units all game to have some in position to move into your deployment area to get Linebreaker, and you having held a stationary position all game and not having any units in position to advance into my deployment zone as a result is not me slow playing.
Waste not time, want not time.
Oh, Twinsezes play-date is almost here, so I'll have to wrap it up.
Last game was against Tyranids, I seized the initiative, and Started removing Carnifexes from the board and was able to prevent his Mawloc from coming in due to having spread out so much that his tag-along Genestealers (fortunately for me) failed a charge and were on the receiving end of the Drive-Up Dakka Distribution Depot of four units of Battle Sisters and a unit of Heavy Bolters dishing out ridiculous amounts of Bolter shots of varying varieties with re-rolls due to the Canoness who hitched a ride. More bullets than he had bodies, plus moving Seraphim into inferno Pistol range of his Warlord behind his lines so Brain-bug was the closest model was also a high point.
Stuck Middle-of -the-pack (my best possible showing given lack of time for games outside of tourneys/events) but overall fun.
Got a gift certificate, but the play's the important thing. And more plastic crack to add to whatever I may want to play next/trade bait for something else.
Tl:dr - AWould play Ambassadorial again. 'Twas fun.
Tweaked the list to make it even MORE MSU-ier
45 - HQ - Canoness (45) with Chainsword/ Bolt Pistol
45 - HQ - Canoness (45) with Chainsword/ Bolt Pistol (I never got to use the Eviscerator, so the points were basically wasted here)
49 - HQ - Canoness with Power Sword (4 - Relic)/ Bolt Pistol (Warlord)(Keeping the Relic because a +2 S, 3 Damage weapon for 4 points is too good to pass up)
51 - OB SEC TROOP - 5 BSS (45) with 3 Storm Bolters (6)
51 - OB SEC TROOP - 5 BSS (45) with 3 Storm Bolters (6) (Both units above to provide a buffer for the Heavy Bolter Retributors)
51 - OB SEC TROOP - 5 BSS (45) with 3 Storm Bolters (6)
51 - OB SEC TROOP - 5 BSS (45) with 3 Storm Bolters (6)
51 - OB SEC TROOP - 5 BSS (45) with 3 Storm Bolters (6)
122 - DT – Immolator (68) with Twin MultiMelta (54)
51 - OB SEC TROOP - 5 BSS (45) with 3 Storm Bolters (6)
122 - DT – Immolator (68) with Twin MultiMelta (54)
40 - ELITE - Imagifer
40 - ELITE - Imagifer
40 - ELITE - Imagifer (now for up to FOUR Acts of Faith before the turn begins)
15 - ELITE - Dialogus
15 - ELITE - Dialogus (Nobody wants to kill me and release yet another Act of faith, Hmm...)
85 - HEAVY - 5 Retributors (45) with 4 Heavy Bolters (40)
85 - HEAVY - 5 Retributors (45) with 4 Heavy Bolters (40)
85 - HEAVY - 5 Retributors (45) with 4 Heavy Bolters (40)
103 - DT – Immolator (68) with Immolation Flamer (35)
91 - FAST - 5 Seraphim (55) with 4 Inferno Pistols (36), Superior with Chainsword/Bolt Pistol
91 - FAST - 5 Seraphim (77) with 4 Inferno Pistols (36), Superior with Chainsword/Bolt Pistol (The extra bodies didn't help survivability, so off you go)
118 - FAST - 5 Dominions (50) with 4 Melta (68)
110 - DT – Repressor (91) with Heavy Flamer (17) and Storm Bolter (2)
118 - FAST - 5 Dominions (50) with 4 Melta (68)
118 - FAST - 5 Dominions (50) with 4 Flamer (36) and CombiFlamer (11) (to get out and provide more guaranteed hits while up close and personal than Storm Bolters)
110 - DT – Repressor (91) with Heavy Flamer (17) and Storm Bolter (2)
So I took Sisters alongside IG and Custodes to London GT (and yes, the terrain was unpainted styrofoam, but was fantastic for gameplay purposes), and left with a 4-1 record (WWLWW), and 45th overall out of 367 players.
Here's my list:
This is a game I wasn't super happy to get round one, since an inexperienced ork player would take forever to play; and my prediction was right. After an hour and 30 minutes into the round, I finally got my first turn. There's nothing to even write about in this game, we played two turns in 3 hours, and I took under half an hour of it. 20-19 on VPs giving me an 11-9 win in TPs.
Game Two: Dan and his Space Wolves
Spoiler:
Dan deployed four dreadnoughts on the edge of his deployment zone (dawn of war). All four were removed in my top of turn 1, and it was downhill from there for him. 38-10 on VPs giving me a 20-0 on TPs. (31/40)
Game Three: Wlodek and his Imperial Soup (DA, Guard, Custodes)
Spoiler:
So after two games, I felt like I was going to get some challenging ones now - and challenging it was. Corner deployment against 3 tank commanders, guard screens, two dark talons, Sammael, Darkshroud, and 3 Shield Captains was looking poor for me. I took first turn and scouted the Doms into LOS on the ruins, moved up the seraphim between the two middle LOS blockers. This was a huge mistake as it meant he could fly both dark talons over, bomb two seraphim squads, and shoot the third with his shield captains. Without double moving meltas, my list didn't feel fast enough to catch him, and I had to play passively, hiding in corners and trying to score maelstrom. Wlodek played fantastically, ensuring his tanks were always 1" out of threat range, sacrificing units to keep me in the centre while he scored points. I scored 8VPs to his 20 for a 4-16 TP loss. (35/60). Wlodek ended up coming 6th overall, so not too upset about this loss; he's a fantastic player and knew exactly how to counter my army.
At the end of day one I was a little miffed - only one real game, over an hour waiting to get in, not knowing where tables were, having no time for lunch since there were no shops within 20 minute walk, and still nursing a hangover. But day two was much better run, ran closer to advertised time, and I actually got to walk around and talk to people I knew with the more relaxed schedule.
Game Four: Francesco with his Aeldari
Spoiler:
I was a little worried on this one. Quarters deployment, maelstrom scoring to 10 before burning out, and knowing he could just Agents of Vect to get rid of important stratagems. Francesco had two Ravagers, five Venoms, a Raider filled with a Haemonculus and Grotesques, three Ranger squads, a Farseer, and a warlock Concalve alongside a forgeworld gunboat. I knew my gameplan would have to be popping ravagers early and popping the venoms with Mandrakes in to avoid the mortal wounds. I scouted two repressors to take out his gunboat, hid the seraphim, and used one repressor to take out his farseer on the other side of his deployment zone. The rest of the game was attrition, with him stuck in a corner, and me throwing units at him to get those 10 maelstrom cards and stop the maelstrom altogether. I also held 3 or the 4 objectives that mattered for the endgame. 22-5 VPs to me, giving me 19-1 in TPs. (54/80)
Game Five: Drew and his Tyranids
Spoiler:
Game 5 and I was hoping to get that juicy 4-1. Drew rocked up with his 3 flying hive tyrants, 3 dakkafexes, 2 squads of hive guard (6 and 3), and more screening than you can shake a stick at. Deployment map was good for me (pointy dawn of war), so I was quietly confident until he siezed on me and took first turn. I scouted behind the LOS blockers, out of range of his big squad of hive guard and dakkafexes to force them to move and get rid of the reroll 1s. He took out 2 regardless, and I dropped the girls out, out of LOS, in the middle of the board. my turn 1 I covered the board entirely, forcing him to drop his hive tyrants in his own deployment zone next turn or not at all in turn 3. I removed 4 squads of Termagants, 2 dakkafexes, and one squad of hive guard. I took 3 of the 4 main objectives for 5 points, and scored 3 cards. Along with killpoints I scored 15 points overall for my turn, to his 5. He brought in his Tyrants, and killed two shield captains and took celestines first life. I brought her back 25" away, with a squad of seraphim 24" away out of LOS, so he couldn't attack her again.
My turn 2 I flew her up with a double move to tie up his hive guard, flew the seraphim up and killed another dakkafex, and one hive tyrant. He responded by killing some seraphim, and the rest of the game was us hopelessly plinking at each other while I scored objectives. 45 - 31 for a 14 point win, and a 17-3 in tournament points. Taking me to 71 TP out of 100 potential, and to 45th place.
Overall the Seraphim surprised me. I had been taking 4 repressors and 1 unit of seraphim, but they were fantastic in every game that I allowed them to be. They gave me serious flexibility in where I delivered my meltas and were super fun to use. The guard batallion was super boring but unlocked using the fun Shield Captains, who worked really well alongside how fast the rest of the army was.
Frowbakk wrote: A week later and I have time again to relate the fantastic performance of the Brigade of Sisters I brought to the 2018 Ambassadorial tournament, (As T.O.'d by Jancoran) where I won absolutely all of my games, as long as you don't count the first two.
Stuck Middle-of -the-pack (my best possible showing given lack of time for games outside of tourneys/events) but overall fun.
Got a gift certificate, but the play's the important thing. And more plastic crack to add to whatever I may want to play next/trade bait for something else.
Tl:dr - AWould play Ambassadorial again. 'Twas fun.
Tweaked the list to make it even MORE MSU-ier
45 - HQ - Canoness (45) with Chainsword/ Bolt Pistol
45 - HQ - Canoness (45) with Chainsword/ Bolt Pistol (I never got to use the Eviscerator, so the points were basically wasted here)
49 - HQ - Canoness with Power Sword (4 - Relic)/ Bolt Pistol (Warlord)(Keeping the Relic because a +2 S, 3 Damage weapon for 4 points is too good to pass up)
51 - OB SEC TROOP - 5 BSS (45) with 3 Storm Bolters (6)
51 - OB SEC TROOP - 5 BSS (45) with 3 Storm Bolters (6) (Both units above to provide a buffer for the Heavy Bolter Retributors)
51 - OB SEC TROOP - 5 BSS (45) with 3 Storm Bolters (6)
51 - OB SEC TROOP - 5 BSS (45) with 3 Storm Bolters (6)
51 - OB SEC TROOP - 5 BSS (45) with 3 Storm Bolters (6)
122 - DT – Immolator (68) with Twin MultiMelta (54)
51 - OB SEC TROOP - 5 BSS (45) with 3 Storm Bolters (6)
122 - DT – Immolator (68) with Twin MultiMelta (54)
40 - ELITE - Imagifer
40 - ELITE - Imagifer
40 - ELITE - Imagifer (now for up to FOUR Acts of Faith before the turn begins)
15 - ELITE - Dialogus
15 - ELITE - Dialogus (Nobody wants to kill me and release yet another Act of faith, Hmm...)
85 - HEAVY - 5 Retributors (45) with 4 Heavy Bolters (40)
85 - HEAVY - 5 Retributors (45) with 4 Heavy Bolters (40)
85 - HEAVY - 5 Retributors (45) with 4 Heavy Bolters (40)
103 - DT – Immolator (68) with Immolation Flamer (35)
91 - FAST - 5 Seraphim (55) with 4 Inferno Pistols (36), Superior with Chainsword/Bolt Pistol
91 - FAST - 5 Seraphim (77) with 4 Inferno Pistols (36), Superior with Chainsword/Bolt Pistol (The extra bodies didn't help survivability, so off you go)
118 - FAST - 5 Dominions (50) with 4 Melta (68)
110 - DT – Repressor (91) with Heavy Flamer (17) and Storm Bolter (2)
118 - FAST - 5 Dominions (50) with 4 Melta (68)
118 - FAST - 5 Dominions (50) with 4 Flamer (36) and CombiFlamer (11) (to get out and provide more guaranteed hits while up close and personal than Storm Bolters)
110 - DT – Repressor (91) with Heavy Flamer (17) and Storm Bolter (2)
Yup. We gave tonz o prises away. I was happy to see your nice sisters army there. As said elsewhere, practice will speed you up and its just a great excuse to play.
Bionid wrote: So I took Sisters alongside IG and Custodes to London GT (and yes, the terrain was unpainted styrofoam, but was fantastic for gameplay purposes), and left with a 4-1 record (WWLWW), and 45th overall out of 367 players.
Here's my list:
This is a game I wasn't super happy to get round one, since an inexperienced ork player would take forever to play; and my prediction was right. After an hour and 30 minutes into the round, I finally got my first turn. There's nothing to even write about in this game, we played two turns in 3 hours, and I took under half an hour of it. 20-19 on VPs giving me an 11-9 win in TPs.
Game Two: Dan and his Space Wolves
Spoiler:
Dan deployed four dreadnoughts on the edge of his deployment zone (dawn of war). All four were removed in my top of turn 1, and it was downhill from there for him. 38-10 on VPs giving me a 20-0 on TPs. (31/40)
Game Three: Wlodek and his Imperial Soup (DA, Guard, Custodes)
Spoiler:
So after two games, I felt like I was going to get some challenging ones now - and challenging it was. Corner deployment against 3 tank commanders, guard screens, two dark talons, Sammael, Darkshroud, and 3 Shield Captains was looking poor for me. I took first turn and scouted the Doms into LOS on the ruins, moved up the seraphim between the two middle LOS blockers. This was a huge mistake as it meant he could fly both dark talons over, bomb two seraphim squads, and shoot the third with his shield captains. Without double moving meltas, my list didn't feel fast enough to catch him, and I had to play passively, hiding in corners and trying to score maelstrom. Wlodek played fantastically, ensuring his tanks were always 1" out of threat range, sacrificing units to keep me in the centre while he scored points. I scored 8VPs to his 20 for a 4-16 TP loss. (35/60). Wlodek ended up coming 6th overall, so not too upset about this loss; he's a fantastic player and knew exactly how to counter my army.
At the end of day one I was a little miffed - only one real game, over an hour waiting to get in, not knowing where tables were, having no time for lunch since there were no shops within 20 minute walk, and still nursing a hangover. But day two was much better run, ran closer to advertised time, and I actually got to walk around and talk to people I knew with the more relaxed schedule.
Game Four: Francesco with his Aeldari
Spoiler:
I was a little worried on this one. Quarters deployment, maelstrom scoring to 10 before burning out, and knowing he could just Agents of Vect to get rid of important stratagems. Francesco had two Ravagers, five Venoms, a Raider filled with a Haemonculus and Grotesques, three Ranger squads, a Farseer, and a warlock Concalve alongside a forgeworld gunboat. I knew my gameplan would have to be popping ravagers early and popping the venoms with Mandrakes in to avoid the mortal wounds. I scouted two repressors to take out his gunboat, hid the seraphim, and used one repressor to take out his farseer on the other side of his deployment zone. The rest of the game was attrition, with him stuck in a corner, and me throwing units at him to get those 10 maelstrom cards and stop the maelstrom altogether. I also held 3 or the 4 objectives that mattered for the endgame. 22-5 VPs to me, giving me 19-1 in TPs. (54/80)
Game Five: Drew and his Tyranids
Spoiler:
Game 5 and I was hoping to get that juicy 4-1. Drew rocked up with his 3 flying hive tyrants, 3 dakkafexes, 2 squads of hive guard (6 and 3), and more screening than you can shake a stick at. Deployment map was good for me (pointy dawn of war), so I was quietly confident until he siezed on me and took first turn. I scouted behind the LOS blockers, out of range of his big squad of hive guard and dakkafexes to force them to move and get rid of the reroll 1s. He took out 2 regardless, and I dropped the girls out, out of LOS, in the middle of the board. my turn 1 I covered the board entirely, forcing him to drop his hive tyrants in his own deployment zone next turn or not at all in turn 3. I removed 4 squads of Termagants, 2 dakkafexes, and one squad of hive guard. I took 3 of the 4 main objectives for 5 points, and scored 3 cards. Along with killpoints I scored 15 points overall for my turn, to his 5. He brought in his Tyrants, and killed two shield captains and took celestines first life. I brought her back 25" away, with a squad of seraphim 24" away out of LOS, so he couldn't attack her again.
My turn 2 I flew her up with a double move to tie up his hive guard, flew the seraphim up and killed another dakkafex, and one hive tyrant. He responded by killing some seraphim, and the rest of the game was us hopelessly plinking at each other while I scored objectives. 45 - 31 for a 14 point win, and a 17-3 in tournament points. Taking me to 71 TP out of 100 potential, and to 45th place.
Overall the Seraphim surprised me. I had been taking 4 repressors and 1 unit of seraphim, but they were fantastic in every game that I allowed them to be. They gave me serious flexibility in where I delivered my meltas and were super fun to use. The guard batallion was super boring but unlocked using the fun Shield Captains, who worked really well alongside how fast the rest of the army was.
I followed your games on BCP and was looking for a post on FB somewhere for more insight. So glad I ran into this! This is the kind of list I've been considering running as well, though with BA smash captains and scouts instead of the Custodes.
Now that you have a major event under your belt, how do you plan on altering the list if at all?
I followed your games on BCP and was looking for a post on FB somewhere for more insight. So glad I ran into this! This is the kind of list I've been considering running as well, though with BA smash captains and scouts instead of the Custodes.
Now that you have a major event under your belt, how do you plan on altering the list if at all?
Not sure there is much to change in the sisters section of the list. 3 obsec guard squads means I don't need the BSS, so a full outrider is pretty much the best option. I'd love to be able to play HF rets in a repressor, but they just get popped so easily!
Any changes would probably be to add a few more seraphim to each squad, but I'm not sure where I'd get the points as its pretty tight on them as it stands. I'd keep the extra dom in each squad as losing a 10 point model hurts a lot less than a 27 point model.
I'd change the list more if I was playing ITC, but in ETC there isn't much reason to, and ETC is far more prevalent in the UK than ITC
So, in a few days I'm going to be (hopefully) getting a few games in at a new store. I don't know the store's attitude towards competitive/casual so I want to bring lists that could win, but won't blow anyone's doors off (1k, and 1,500). Basically, something fun, but not a complete pushover either.
So, looking for list advice.
The 1k
Spoiler:
Battalion
Canoness
WL: Tenacious Survivor
Blade of Admonition
Chainsword (Have to check this one, BS says yes, but feels wrong)
Combi-melta
Canoness
Boltgun
Chainsword
5 BSS with 3x Stormbolters
5 BSS with 3x Stormbolters
5 BSS with 3x Stormbolters
2 Imagifers
5 seraphim squads with 2x inferno pistols
5 seraphim squads with 2x inferno pistols
5 retributors w/4x heavy bolters
5 retributors w/4x heavy bolters
5Retributers (5) with stormbolter and 4x heavy flamers
Rhino with 2 storm bolters
Immolator with Immolation Flamer and stormbolter.
1,500
Spoiler:
Battalion, Outrider, Auxillery
Battalion
Canoness
WL: Tenacious Survivor
Blade of Admonition
Chainsword (Have to check this one, BS says yes, but feels wrong)
Combi-melta
Canoness
2x inferno pistols
3 BSS (5 each) with 3x stormbolters
3x Imagifers
5 Retributors with 4x heavy bolters
5 Retributors with 4x heavy flamers and 1 combi-flamer
I'm considering running sisters or harlequins in an escalation league. I put together the following as a 500point list. I think it's good but I'm looking for feedback. Is lack of CP a problem for sisters? I know they have limited access to stratagems so my assumption is low CP isn't much of an issue?
I'm not sure what the missions are like at this point. I'm concerned this isn't enough models, but with their shield of faith being bumped to a 5++ with Celestine and a native 3+ I think the models are pretty sturdy for a 500pt game? 9 Wounds at 2+/4++ seems pretty solid too. Another concern is will this be enough firepower or have I invested too much in quality versus quantity?
Anyone feel like giving some feedback on this list? I dropped the Seraphim and Assassin since I felt they were under performing, added a 3rd unit of Heavy Bolters and bulked out some other squads. The plan is to Imagify the Heavy Bolters to DakkaDakkaDakka while the Dominions rush about doing their thing and Celestine is a multi-purpose beatstick.
pretre wrote: Other than finding the points to change the doms to all melta, I think that's a really solid list.
I figured having 10 meltas was enough. I can't take a 4th unit to make it 20 meltas so I was going to use the 6 strong (so they can all fire out the repressor) to gun for a lightly defended objective and stormbolter heavy flamer it to death.
BaconCatBug wrote: Anyone feel like giving some feedback on this list? I dropped the Seraphim and Assassin since I felt they were under performing, added a 3rd unit of Heavy Bolters and bulked out some other squads. The plan is to Imagify the Heavy Bolters to DakkaDakkaDakka while the Dominions rush about doing their thing and Celestine is a multi-purpose beatstick.
I can see the wisdom in the all-StormBolter squad of Dominions. You can double up in one of the Repressors with Melta Dominions, have two 5 model BSS Squads double up in the third Repressor to become DakkaTank(TM) while keeping one of those Immolators empty to Move 12", Advance another d6" and still shoot the Immolation Cannon 12" (Yay Assault Weapon on a Vehicle) and have it keep up with the Dominion Repressors.
Which brings me to the Repressors. Heavy Flamers are NOT Assault (unfortunately) and so can't shoot after Moving and Advancing, which makes the huge cost of the 2nd Heavy Flamer not worth it, in my opinion.
Plus with a Battalion and a Vanguard you have everything required for a Brigade (and 6 more CP) for only three more Troops choices.
Drop the 2nd Heavy Flamers on the Repressors and one Immolator and you've got 3 Battle Sisters Squads with 9 Storm Bolters to stand 17" away from the Retributors and prevent backfield Deep Strikes.
pretre wrote: Up to you. I generally don't think there's such a thing as too much melta though.
I never met a meltagun I didnt like
I take my melta on seraphim not doms, my doms are scouting/vanguard every game and i dont want costly units up front. The Seraphim at least will have a 5++ and re-roll with 3-6 wounds before any melta is killed off.
Amishprn86 wrote: I take my melta on seraphim not doms, my doms are scouting/vanguard every game and i dont want costly units up front. The Seraphim at least will have a 5++ and re-roll with 3-6 wounds before any melta is killed off.
If you think 6-9 seraphim are more durable than Doms in a repressor then I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.
Amishprn86 wrote: I take my melta on seraphim not doms, my doms are scouting/vanguard every game and i dont want costly units up front. The Seraphim at least will have a 5++ and re-roll with 3-6 wounds before any melta is killed off.
If you think 6-9 seraphim are more durable than Doms in a repressor then I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.
pretre wrote: Up to you. I generally don't think there's such a thing as too much melta though.
see... I felt this way also. But meltas are stupidly expensive. I'd much rather drown my opponent in saves from storm bolters most times.... while still sprinkling in some melta pistols.
this is my current list for example.... I call it Codex witch hunters.
celestine and 2 friends
cannoness with power sword/bolter
cannoness with evisorator/plasma pistol
5 celestians, 3 storm bolters/chainsword vet
5 celestians, 3 storm bolters/chainsword vet
5 celestians, 3 storm bolters/chainsword vet
5 sisters, 2 storm bolters, storm bolter/chainsword vet
5 sisters, 2 storm bolters, storm bolter/chainsword vet
5 sisters, 2 storm bolters, storm bolter/chainsword vet
5 sisters, 2 storm bolters, storm bolter/chainsword vet
5 sisters, 2 storm bolters, storm bolter/chainsword vet
5 sisters, 2 storm bolters, storm bolter/chainsword vet
5 dominions with 5 storm bolters/chainsword vet
5 seraphim with 4 melta pistols
5 seraphim with 4 melta pistols
5 seraphim with 4 melta pistols
exorcist/hk missile
exorcist/hk missile
exorcist/hk missile
Hereticus inquisitor with chain sword/bolter/psyker
Hereticus inquisitor with chain sword/bolter/psyker
Hereticus inquisitor with chain sword/bolter/psyker
Game plan is to take your time, playing at a reasonable pace and then win on end game objectives in NOVA format by tossing units via act of faith onto objectives. Is it reliable? no. But its a pride thing. I hate allies as a principle...
pretre wrote: I like the idea, but taking your time at most events means you run out of time.
And if you hate allies, why did you take a bunch of inquisitors and assassins?
Because I've been playing since witch hunters codex and they were part of it so they don't seem like allies.
But yes, I will likely run out of time. I won't slow play, but I'm going to do all my actions. I estimate getting to turn 4 most games if my opponent brings a big list also.
But yes, I will likely run out of time. I won't slow play, but I'm going to do all my actions. I estimate getting to turn 4 most games if my opponent brings a big list also.
I think that may be a bit optimistic.I play a much more aggressive and mech'd list and at most events I'm lucky to get to turn 4 against normal opponents. 40k at this points level is slow. If you're walking everything and being methodical, you may make it to 2 or 3 at an event.
I keep seeing people talking about this as a good solution for protecting characters. I went back to read their rules. "Bodyguard: Roll a D6 each time a friendly <ORDER> CHARACTER loses a wound whilst they are within 3" of this unit; on a 2+ a model from this unit can intercept that hit – the character does not lose a wound but this unit suffers a mortal wound."
So a character gets hit with a Lascannon and somehow is within 3" of this unit. She takes 3 wounds. You roll 3 2+ and lose a celestian for every 2+ you roll. That just does not seem like a great trade to me. Oh and it doesn't work on Celestine since she doesn't have Order.
Wow, yeah, celestians are even worse now that you mention it. Fine against single damage sources but falls apart against the multi damage weapons.
Dont know where i got to thinking they could take the whole hit.
Maybe misread "loses a wound" as "is wounded"?
Wow...celestians need some serious lovin come codex time.
I keep seeing people talking about this as a good solution for protecting characters. I went back to read their rules.
"Bodyguard: Roll a D6 each time a friendly <ORDER> CHARACTER loses a wound whilst they are within 3" of
this unit; on a 2+ a model from this unit can intercept that hit – the character does not lose a wound but this unit
suffers a mortal wound."
So a character gets hit with a Lascannon and somehow is within 3" of this unit. She takes 3 wounds. You roll 3 2+ and lose a celestian for every 2+ you roll. That just does not seem like a great trade to me. Oh and it doesn't work on Celestine since she doesn't have Order.
I guess it depends on how you interpret it. It says when the Character suffers a wound, a model can intercept the hit. I would interpret that as the hit aka all wounds from the hit now go toward the Celestian. So 1 Celestian would absorb 1 lascannon hit for 6 damage. It probably needs more clarification.
I keep seeing people talking about this as a good solution for protecting characters. I went back to read their rules. "Bodyguard: Roll a D6 each time a friendly <ORDER> CHARACTER loses a wound whilst they are within 3" of this unit; on a 2+ a model from this unit can intercept that hit – the character does not lose a wound but this unit suffers a mortal wound."
So a character gets hit with a Lascannon and somehow is within 3" of this unit. She takes 3 wounds. You roll 3 2+ and lose a celestian for every 2+ you roll. That just does not seem like a great trade to me. Oh and it doesn't work on Celestine since she doesn't have Order.
I guess it depends on how you interpret it. It says when the Character suffers a wound, a model can intercept the hit. I would interpret that as the hit aka all wounds from the hit now go toward the Celestian. So 1 Celestian would absorb 1 lascannon hit for 6 damage. It probably needs more clarification.
Roll a D6 each time a friendly <ORDER> CHARACTER loses a wound whilst they are within 3" of this unit; on a 2+ a model from this unit can intercept that hit – the character does not lose a wound but this unit suffers a mortal wound."
The underlined part is the 'trigger' for the rule. Each time a character loses a wound. Not each time they are hit. So if they get hit by a lascannon and take 6 damage, you have to roll a D6 6 times.
I keep seeing people talking about this as a good solution for protecting characters. I went back to read their rules.
"Bodyguard: Roll a D6 each time a friendly <ORDER> CHARACTER loses a wound whilst they are within 3" of
this unit; on a 2+ a model from this unit can intercept that hit – the character does not lose a wound but this unit
suffers a mortal wound."
So a character gets hit with a Lascannon and somehow is within 3" of this unit. She takes 3 wounds. You roll 3 2+ and lose a celestian for every 2+ you roll. That just does not seem like a great trade to me. Oh and it doesn't work on Celestine since she doesn't have Order.
I guess it depends on how you interpret it. It says when the Character suffers a wound, a model can intercept the hit. I would interpret that as the hit aka all wounds from the hit now go toward the Celestian. So 1 Celestian would absorb 1 lascannon hit for 6 damage. It probably needs more clarification.
Roll a D6 each time a friendly <ORDER> CHARACTER loses a wound whilst they are within 3" of
this unit; on a 2+ a model from this unit can intercept that hit – the character does not lose a wound but this unit
suffers a mortal wound."
The underlined part is the 'trigger' for the rule. Each time a character loses a wound. Not each time they are hit. So if they get hit by a lascannon and take 6 damage, you have to roll a D6 6 times.
I missed this bit "– the character does not lose a wound but this unit suffers a mortal wound." I'm dumb. It's a pretty worthless ability it seems.
deviantduck wrote: I missed this bit "– the character does not lose a wound but this unit suffers a mortal wound." I'm dumb. It's a pretty worthless ability it seems.
deviantduck wrote: I missed this bit "– the character does not lose a wound but this unit suffers a mortal wound." I'm dumb. It's a pretty worthless ability it seems.
Nah, it just took a bit of unpacking.
I think you guys are doing celestians wrong...
character takes a hit, opponent wounds character, character fails save, character is THEN losing a wound. Each wound does a different amount of damage. You are intercepting the hit not the damage.
deviantduck wrote: I missed this bit "– the character does not lose a wound but this unit suffers a mortal wound." I'm dumb. It's a pretty worthless ability it seems.
Nah, it just took a bit of unpacking.
I think you guys are doing celestians wrong...
character takes a hit, opponent wounds character, character fails save, character is THEN losing a wound. Each wound does a different amount of damage. You are intercepting the hit not the damage.
Bodyguard: Roll a D6 each time a friendly <ORDER> CHARACTER loses a wound whilst they are within 3" of
this unit; on a 2+ a model from this unit can intercept that hit – the character does not lose a wound but this unit
suffers a mortal wound."
Note 'loses a wound'
Loses a wound is a very particular phrase that does not occur until the Resolve Attacks part of shooting and specifically step 5:
5. Inflict Damage: The damage
inflicted is equal to the Damage
characteristic of the weapon used
in the attack. A model loses one
wound for each point of damage
it suffers. If a model’s wounds
are reduced to 0, it is either slain
or destroyed and removed from
play. If a model loses several
wounds from a single attack and
is destroyed, any excess damage
inflicted by that attack is lost and
has no effect.
Emphasis is mine.
The Celestian's Bodyguard power kicks in when a friendly order character loses a wound. You lose one wound per point of damage. Hence a Lascannon that does 6 damage to a canoness forces that canoness to lose 6 wounds. That means 6 2+ rolls for Celestians and potentially 6 dead celestians.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You're thinking of step 4 'allocate wound' which is different from 'losing a wound'.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Where Celestians are actually good is Mortal Wounds. Because for a 2+ roll, you can shuffle them off on the Celestians instead of a character. Unfortunately, that's too much of a corner case to be useful.
I've got a fun little 1000-point game vs. CSM tomorrow, so I'm fiddling with a list. I know he's got Sorcerors, a bunch of Death Guard stuff... he's a good player who brings strong lists. Here's what I'm thinking:
Tempestus Battalion
Prime
Prime w/ Rod and Laurels
Plasma Scions
Plasma Scions
Lasgun Scions
Slab & Maul Bullgryns
It'll be odd without the Geminae, but running Celestine between Bullgryns and Seraphim will make good use of her aura. The Scions will help with board control and objective grabbing, and the Repressor with mixed Dominions will try to strike hard and draw some heat from the infantry. Thoughts and comments welcome as always.
deviantduck wrote: I missed this bit "– the character does not lose a wound but this unit suffers a mortal wound." I'm dumb. It's a pretty worthless ability it seems.
Nah, it just took a bit of unpacking.
I think you guys are doing celestians wrong...
character takes a hit, opponent wounds character, character fails save, character is THEN losing a wound. Each wound does a different amount of damage. You are intercepting the hit not the damage.
Bodyguard: Roll a D6 each time a friendly <ORDER> CHARACTER loses a wound whilst they are within 3" of
this unit; on a 2+ a model from this unit can intercept that hit – the character does not lose a wound but this unit
suffers a mortal wound."
Note 'loses a wound'
Loses a wound is a very particular phrase that does not occur until the Resolve Attacks part of shooting and specifically step 5:
5. Inflict Damage: The damage
inflicted is equal to the Damage
characteristic of the weapon used
in the attack. A model loses one
wound for each point of damage
it suffers. If a model’s wounds
are reduced to 0, it is either slain
or destroyed and removed from
play. If a model loses several
wounds from a single attack and
is destroyed, any excess damage
inflicted by that attack is lost and
has no effect.
Emphasis is mine.
The Celestian's Bodyguard power kicks in when a friendly order character loses a wound. You lose one wound per point of damage. Hence a Lascannon that does 6 damage to a canoness forces that canoness to lose 6 wounds. That means 6 2+ rolls for Celestians and potentially 6 dead celestians.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You're thinking of step 4 'allocate wound' which is different from 'losing a wound'.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Where Celestians are actually good is Mortal Wounds. Because for a 2+ roll, you can shuffle them off on the Celestians instead of a character. Unfortunately, that's too much of a corner case to be useful.
Except... they intercept the HIT not the wounds? needs an FAQIMHO but currently its worded like the old tau drone rule was... which was universally accepted as intercepting the hit.
Except... they intercept the HIT not the wounds? needs an FAQIMHO but currently its worded like the old tau drone rule was... which was universally accepted as intercepting the hit.
Except it isn't the same wording:
Saviour Protocols: If a <SEPT> INFANTRY or <SEPT>BATTLESUIT unit within 3" of a friendly <SEPT>
DRONES unit is wounded by an enemy attack, roll a D6.
On a 2+ you can allocate that wound to the Drones unitinstead of the target. If you do, that Drones unit suffers amortal wound instead of the normal damage.
Bodyguard: Roll a D6 each time a friendly <ORDER> CHARACTER loses a wound whilst they are within 3" of
this unit; on a 2+ a model from this unit can intercept that hit – the character does not lose a wound but this unit
suffers a mortal wound."
You'll note that the Saviour Protocols language says 'is wounded' vs 'loses a wound'. This refers to step 2 of Resolving Attacks
2. Wound Roll: If an attack scores
a hit, you will then need to roll
another dice to see if the attack
successfully wounds the target.
Step 3 is allocation. So saviour protocols allows you to roll to wound against the Character and then allocate to the Drone.
Bodyguard allows you to move the wounds after the character loses the wound during step 5 of Resolve Attacks.
pretre has it right. All bodyguard rules happen when you take damage, so you roll the dice for each individual point, while Tau Drones are a special case and happen before you even make your save, and can convert a single 5 quadrillion damage shot into 1 mortal wound.
On an unrelated note, should I just concede against Necrons? There doesn't seem to be anything a SOB army can do to stop them. Destroyers just get up after you heavy bolter them and Quantum Shielding makes your meltas useless.
BaconCatBug wrote: On an unrelated note, should I just concede against Necrons? There doesn't seem to be anything a SOB army can do to stop them. Destroyers just get up after you heavy bolter them and Quantum Shielding makes your meltas useless.
Am I right in thinking that, so long as your opponent agrees on the interpretation that Celestine's Beacon of Faith makes your Seraphim Invuls 5++/5++, that you should (as per the core rules) elect to use this over the normal save when shot at with a -1AP weapon that would bring you to 4+?
Rubenite wrote: Am I right in thinking that, so long as your opponent agrees on the interpretation that Celestine's Beacon of Faith makes your Seraphim Invuls 5++/5++, that you should (as per the core rules) elect to use this over the normal save when shot at with a -1AP weapon that would bring you to 4+?
Rubenite wrote: Am I right in thinking that, so long as your opponent agrees on the interpretation that Celestine's Beacon of Faith makes your Seraphim Invuls 5++/5++, that you should (as per the core rules) elect to use this over the normal save when shot at with a -1AP weapon that would bring you to 4+?
Sorry, but that isn't what the term "interpretation" means. You're not "interpreting" anything here, you're outright ignoring the rules and making stuff up.
Seraphim with Celestine are 6++/5++. Anything else is breaking the rules. If you're going to make stuff up why not go for 2++ rerollble with 2+++?
So in short, you want to take the 4+ save vs AP-1 because it's 50% vs 44.45% (if I did my maths right) for a 6++/5++
MacPhail wrote: I've got a fun little 1000-point game vs. CSM tomorrow, so I'm fiddling with a list. I know he's got Sorcerors, a bunch of Death Guard stuff... he's a good player who brings strong lists. Here's what I'm thinking:
Tempestus Battalion
Prime
Prime w/ Rod and Laurels
Plasma Scions
Plasma Scions
Lasgun Scions
Slab & Maul Bullgryns
It'll be odd without the Geminae, but running Celestine between Bullgryns and Seraphim will make good use of her aura. The Scions will help with board control and objective grabbing, and the Repressor with mixed Dominions will try to strike hard and draw some heat from the infantry. Thoughts and comments welcome as always.
I got in two good games at 1k. My first list was as above and went against a Demon Prince, lots of well-equipped Noise Marines, and some Obliterators. I won that one, but it was a squeaker... both armies had melee specialists that never saw melee and died to shooting (my Bullgryns, his Demon Prince), and both armies had good examples of why deep strikers need to come in on Turn 2 (my Scions, his Obliterators). Ultimately I brought him done to 5 Marines with Celestine, a Bullgryn, 2 squads of Scions, and a few Dominions left on the board.
In the second list, I swapped Celestine and the Seraphim for a Canoness and an Inquisitorial Vanguard with Greyfax and another inquisitor. I went against Typhus, Poxwalkers, Blight Drones, Helbrutes, and a Plagueburst Crawler. BY biggest failing was splitting fire too elegantly and not actually killing anything. When I conceded I had reduced both Hellbrutes to 1 wound, the Crawler to 3 wounds, but I'd lost all but a few Scions and some scattered Elites like a Priest and an Acolyte... I still had Greyfax and the Canoness, but they didn't have the tools to do anything... I called it after Turn 2 as a clear loss.
Takeaways: Scions are still great, even in Turn 2. Bullgryns without Celestine aren't the same. Dice are capricious. The Repressor is great, but must be used judiciously.. I got reckless with mine because I wanted to test the dozer and wound up losing it in both games. The Inquisitors were okay, but I think too much is required of them at 1000 points... too bad, because they're sooo fluffy.
I'll post pics of Zefig's Repressor conversion parts soon., I got the first one painted up in time for this game.
pretre wrote: Can we not start the Seraphim save debate again? He asked a simple question and it was answered.
Especially since it's not a debate because BCB is wrong.
I literally could not be more correct. The FAQ even explicitly spells it out. You must do re-rolls before modifiers. Seraphim re-rolls are MANDATORY, so you must re-roll 5's.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MacPhail wrote: Somehow I missed the whole debate... without reopening, what was the verdict?
There is no debate, only people playing by the rules and people not playing by the rules. Because Seraphim's re-roll effect is not optional, you are forced to re-roll 5s, even if you have a +1 to the save.
pretre wrote: Can we not start the Seraphim save debate again? He asked a simple question and it was answered.
Especially since it's not a debate because BCB is wrong.
I literally could not be more correct. The FAQ even explicitly spells it out. You must do re-rolls before modifiers. Seraphim re-rolls are MANDATORY, so you must re-roll 5's.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MacPhail wrote: Somehow I missed the whole debate... without reopening, what was the verdict?
There is no debate, only people playing by the rules and people not playing by the rules. Because Seraphim's re-roll effect is not optional, you are forced to re-roll 5s, even if you have a +1 to the save.
Ahhhh... I see. As you were, everyone, no need to reopen the discussion on my account.
Normally I'd limit this to P&M, but y'all have been generous with both tactical and aesthetic guidance, and folks might want to see Zefig's Shapeways components in action and maybe build some Repressors of their own, so... here's one of two, far from done, but you can see how the refit parts and paint scheme are working out. More details in my P&M blog.
Yeah I have his turrets (they are great) that I used to covert some repressors out of until I was forced to find the sculpt for Adepticon and some local larger events.
All my lists I've toyed with have always had full 10-girl squads, but I found I just couldn't fill out a full Brigade. With just 5-girl squads I found I could do a full Brigade plus an Outrider detachment, and have points left over. But I'm worried about not having enough staying power.
Do any of you have success with only 5-girl squads?
And is it 2019 yet? I want my plastic sisters.....
All I use are 5 girl squads, on everything. Removes the morale liability, brings more special weapons on the table and lets you double up in Repressors.
dracpanzer wrote: All I use are 5 girl squads, on everything. Removes the morale liability, brings more special weapons on the table and lets you double up in Repressors.
Yep, pretty much this. I think the only squad I go above 5 is Seraphim.
Likewise on mostly 5-strong. If I have a few points and I've already maxxed out stormbolters everywhere I can, I'll add an extra Seraphim or Retributer to give a squad some staying power when I think they'll be taking some hits.
I take six-strong Dominion melta squads in my Repressors. Six models can fire out the ports so that gives you 4 Meltas + 1 Combi-Melta + 1 Krak Grenade (synergistic 6" range). And then when the transport inevitably explodes, you've got the perfect volunteer to take that roll of 1 and save your expensive meltas.
Since the rule of three I'd only really consider doubling up 5-strong BSS in a Repressor - vanguard moving three vehicles is just so great.
pretre wrote: Up to you. I generally don't think there's such a thing as too much melta though.
I never met a meltagun I didnt like
I take my melta on seraphim not doms, my doms are scouting/vanguard every game and i dont want costly units up front. The Seraphim at least will have a 5++ and re-roll with 3-6 wounds before any melta is killed off.
My Dominion are all about the front lines. With Meltas. Immediately. I also don't take minimum sized squads. So they stay dangerous for a bit and do serious wrecking. Can't afford to allow the heavy hitters their day in court. Acts of Faith aren't sure enough ways to get there even though its a cool trick. I want the certainty of destruction from the word go. My dead pile gets bigger but my wins pile up just as fast. =)
pretre wrote: Up to you. I generally don't think there's such a thing as too much melta though.
I never met a meltagun I didnt like
I take my melta on seraphim not doms, my doms are scouting/vanguard every game and i dont want costly units up front. The Seraphim at least will have a 5++ and re-roll with 3-6 wounds before any melta is killed off.
My Dominion are all about the front lines. With Meltas. Immediately. I also don't take minimum sized squads. So they stay dangerous for a bit and do serious wrecking. Can't afford to allow the heavy hitters their day in court. Acts of Faith aren't sure enough ways to get there even though its a cool trick. I want the certainty of destruction from the word go. My dead pile gets bigger but my wins pile up just as fast. =)
Preach on. "The enemy can't push a button if you disable his hand."
You no longer roll dice for an Act of Faith. Instead each Act cost one Command Point. Acts are limited to one per squad per turn, but no limit on the number of Acts per turn other than your available Command Points.
You no longer roll dice for an Act of Faith. Instead each Act cost one Command Point. Acts are limited to one per squad per turn, but no limit on the number of Acts per turn other than your available Command Points.
Thoughts?
I think that's a great post for the proposed rules forum.
You no longer roll dice for an Act of Faith. Instead each Act cost one Command Point. Acts are limited to one per squad per turn, but no limit on the number of Acts per turn other than your available Command Points.
Thoughts?
I think it would cripple the one ability we have left.
how is it a cripple? it lets you know that you can reliably get off X AoF when you need them, and lets you spam several Acts on the first turn to try and get a leg up early while having lettle power moves later on, use them sparingly throughout the game, or save them all for Turns 5&6 when you really need them.
phydaux wrote: how is it a cripple? it lets you know that you can reliably get off X AoF when you need them, and lets you spam several Acts on the first turn to try and get a leg up early while having lettle power moves later on, use them sparingly throughout the game, or save them all for Turns 5&6 when you really need them.
I think that's a great post for the proposed rules forum.
My girls are performing so well on the tabletop right now, still able to go toe-to-toe with any codex army. Finally got a few post-FAQ games under my belt and wanted to share some observations and ask a few questions:
- Our mobility is absolutely insane. Double moving with AoFs, Immolators advancing+firing and Dominion Vanguard moves let you be anywhere you need to be. Our threat-ranges are obscene. My favourite tactic on Dawn of War deployment is to use the vanguard move to redeploy to a refused flank, taking out one side with overwhelming force before moving through the middle towards the other.
- Inferno pistols are brutal. I'm running a 10-strong Seraphim unit to protect them (reserving 2CP for moral) and the double-move + FLY lets you hop over everything and within a whisper of any character. I like to imagine them saying "The Emperor send his regards..." before assassinating them in a flurry of muzzle flashes. If they're still in combat at the start of your turn you can use an AoF to shoot their pistols (including Inferno!). I'm finding that these perform just as well, if not better situationally, than a Repressor full of meltaguns.
- The Canoness is one of my favourite units - just love charging them into combat. One with the Blade of Admonition and one with an Eviscerator - they absolutely wreck face. They provide great synergy for overcharging Plasma which i'm running on both of them and on my BSS superiors. Their voice in my head is the fantastic Dawn of War: Soulstorm voice-actress ("Unbelievers MUST DIE!"). So thematic.
- Every list needs a 15pt Kamikaze Sister Dialogus in an Immolator IMO. She either dies to activate Martyrdom (she's first in line if the tank blows up!) or you make her exit the tank to hold a back-field objective.
- Celestine's ability to go from 1 to 3 models on the final turn (Healing Tears + Spirit of the Martyr AoF) has allowed me to claim many an objective and win a game.
- Not a Sisters unit but my converted allied Dark Talon is worth the -1CP and 200pts IMO. 24 bolter shots hitting ground targets on 2+ is a fantastic chaff-clearing tool, and the rift cannon and stasis bomb give sorely needed access to Mortal Wounds. Plus it fits right in aesthetically.
Some questions:
- What Warlord Trait do you run with Celestine? I keep tossing between 6+++ and +1A on the charge.
- I run a mechanized list and keeping the tanks out of combat seems pretty important. If the Repressor falls back, can the people inside still shoot? This isn't explicitly expressed anywhere but I've been playing it as any shooting restrictions that apply to the tank apply to the occupants - how do you guys play it?.
pretre wrote: I've been running the 6+++ but I think I'm going to switch to +1A. I always forget the FNP.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Re: Reppressors, yes. Good to warn your opponent at the start of the game though.
I run with the +1A, I never make my FNP and Celestine misses for me far more than she should, the extra A on the charge always helps. I love charging stuff with my Repressors, they have to fall back to hope to shoot, you can fall back and shoot out. Like Pretre said, warn your opponent.
Interesting - so is the reasoning that the firing unit inside the Repressor did not fall back themselves? What about if there are enemies within 1" of the Repressor, and what if the Repressor advances? Pops smoke?
Rubenite wrote: Interesting - so is the reasoning that the firing unit inside the Repressor did not fall back themselves? What about if there are enemies within 1" of the Repressor, and what if the Repressor advances? Pops smoke?
Compare these two rules:
Open-topped: Models embarked on this model can attack in their Shooting phase. Measure the range and draw line of sight from any point on this model. When they do so, any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers; for example, the passengers cannot shoot if this model has Fallen Back in the same turn, cannot shoot (except with Pistols) if this model is within 1" of an enemy unit, and so on. Note that the passengers cannot shoot if this model Falls Back, even though the Raider itself can.
Firing Ports: Up to six models being transported by a Sororitas Repressor can shoot in their Shooting phase, measuring and drawing line of sight from any point on the vehicle. Units that shoot in this manner count as having moved if they or the Sororitas Repressor moved in the preceding Movement phase.
The only effect that you have on passengers of a repressor is movement whereas most normal vehicles have all the restrictions of the vehicle itself.
Wow. Maybe I will put myself through the ordeal of building a third one of these... That's unreal. Can't believe I have been unintentionally hindering myself all this time.
So Turn 1, after Vanguard move+advance, I should be strongly considering moving+advancing the Repressors, popping smoke, and firing up to six models out of the top with no penalty?
I usually go with the +1A on Celestine when charging. Typically, she is either going to die, or she is not going to die. +1-2W isn't going to change that too much, but an extra attack now and then can be pretty clutch (splitting attacks into multiple units or threatening a high toughness/invul unit a little more).
I also play very aggressively with Celestine during the first couple of turns, too, so that has a lot to do with why I get the extra mileage out of the assault attack.
if I have Seraphim off the board, can I use an Act of Faith to give them an extra movement phase and have them show up "at the end of Movement?" And then Move-Shoot-Charge-Fight?
phydaux wrote: if I have Seraphim off the board, can I use an Act of Faith to give them an extra movement phase and have them show up "at the end of Movement?" And then Move-Shoot-Charge-Fight?
It looks like really good damage output and a lot of bodies to me, with pretty good alpha potential and good board control. I imagine you'll miss Celestine in at least a couple of games, especially if something gets into your lines early.
Do sisters of silence add anything of note to a Sisters of Battle army? I would love to think they do, but the more I look at them, the less is feel like taking a detachment of them. The Vigilators seem nasty in melee, but other than that I'm not so sure.
Some light anti-psyker but other than that nothing much else. In the future I imagine they'll be fleshed out ala Custodes and/or get their FW stuff ported over.
phydaux wrote: how is it a cripple? it lets you know that you can reliably get off X AoF when you need them, and lets you spam several Acts on the first turn to try and get a leg up early while having lettle power moves later on, use them sparingly throughout the game, or save them all for Turns 5&6 when you really need them.
phydaux wrote: how is it a cripple? it lets you know that you can reliably get off X AoF when you need them, and lets you spam several Acts on the first turn to try and get a leg up early while having lettle power moves later on, use them sparingly throughout the game, or save them all for Turns 5&6 when you really need them.
Acts of Faith should be like IG orders.
IDK, that would make them very strong. They are a full phase, i pretty sure they will be nerf a bit, a limit like Ynnari.
I'd like to see one of them being a 4++ for a turn on their shield of faith rule, that be a sweet add on, would make a melee unit more fun to play.
Call me a weirdo, but I kinda like Acts as they currently are.
They are strong, very similar to Strength from Death just with more specific timings and harder to access.
And I think that is something else that makes them good, but not too powerful. They are relatively limited access. The more that there are, the less significant any one feels.
I would propose that Acts of Faith are borderline miracles in the narrative aspect of the game... so an army ripping off 4-5 a turn seems... watered down. Keep them significant parts of the turn, but limit access to preserve the significance.
Then when the Codex gets pondered over, they could incorporate a stratagem that allows the army to rip off an extra Act of Faith at the cost of CP.
Plus, if Acts become "common place" actions for Sisters, the cost is going to be baked into every model, or the effectiveness of them are going to be hamstrung because the expectation is they will be taking these actions frequently.
The problem is that the current system highly rewards a player with a single Sisters unit in their soup army by allowing that one unit to get off an Act nearly every turn. But it punishes the player who has a full Sisters Battalion with 20+ Sisters units in but can only manage 1 or 2 Acts per turn.
The Trial Rules need to somehow normalize Acts. If al you have is a single unit, then that unit SHOULD get an Act every turn or so. But if you have a full Sisters Battalion.
IMO the only current game mechanic that is at all similar is Psychic Powers.
I say roll 2d6 for an Act, the first Act goes off on a 4+, with +1 for every Act there after. Only Sister Superiors can roll. +2 to the roll for any unit with an Imigifier in it.
phydaux wrote: The problem is that the current system highly rewards a player with a single Sisters unit in their soup army by allowing that one unit to get off an Act nearly every turn. But it punishes the player who has a full Sisters Battalion with 20+ Sisters units in but can only manage 1 or 2 Acts per turn.
The Trial Rules need to somehow normalize Acts. If al you have is a single unit, then that unit SHOULD get an Act every turn or so. But if you have a full Sisters Battalion.
That is a problem? Wasn't aware the acts of faith from lone battle sister squads were deforming the environment in any meaningful sort of way. I also don't see 500 points as inconsequential for a suicide squad of squishy Seraphim and Celestine. Celestine is certainly worth that, but the rest is hardly going to flatten much.
Does it give imperium armies the same boost as Sororitas? Sure. But doesn't 200 points give every imperium army +5 CP?
Good things don't having to be spammed to epic extents to make your army work or make a rule fun. In fact, where a 2000 point sisters army gets a boost over a 500 point Celestine hit squad is what happens after those Seraphim die. More meaningful acts deeper into the game.
Purifying Tempest wrote: That is a problem? Wasn't aware the acts of faith from lone battle sister squads were deforming the environment in any meaningful sort of way. I also don't see 500 points as inconsequential for a suicide squad of squishy Seraphim and Celestine. Celestine is certainly worth that, but the rest is hardly going to flatten much.
Does it give imperium armies the same boost as Sororitas? Sure. But doesn't 200 points give every imperium army +5 CP?
Good things don't having to be spammed to epic extents to make your army work or make a rule fun. In fact, where a 2000 point sisters army gets a boost over a 500 point Celestine hit squad is what happens after those Seraphim die. More meaningful acts deeper into the game.
Some of us would rather it be a army wide rule than a 1-2 unit rule.
pretre wrote: This is kind of wish-listing rather than tactics...
That being said, we should just go back to the old 'faith pool'.
My favorite version of the faith rules:
Spoiler:
Now can we maybe start a thread for the proposed rules and take it there?
I'm ok with the current Faith mechanism, like it has been said it isn't like every imperial army is taking a Sisters unit just to get the easy AoF off. Weakness of the current system being scalability and the fact that Celestine is practically mandatory to keep AoFs going.
If it were to change right now I would definitely prefer going to the old school system. Of course that system had it's flaws too, like my Seraphim chewed through 3/4 or more of my faith points doing their unit-tie-up-shenanagans, but man that was good times. Wouldn't work the same way with the current ruleset without a bunch of changes, but it's a good mechanic and one that would be unique.
I hate the idea of just reskinning faith to be like Orders or Psychic powers or Ynnari or whatever.
Purifying Tempest wrote: That is a problem? Wasn't aware the acts of faith from lone battle sister squads were deforming the environment in any meaningful sort of way. I also don't see 500 points as inconsequential for a suicide squad of squishy Seraphim and Celestine. Celestine is certainly worth that, but the rest is hardly going to flatten much.
Does it give imperium armies the same boost as Sororitas? Sure. But doesn't 200 points give every imperium army +5 CP?
Good things don't having to be spammed to epic extents to make your army work or make a rule fun. In fact, where a 2000 point sisters army gets a boost over a 500 point Celestine hit squad is what happens after those Seraphim die. More meaningful acts deeper into the game.
Some of us would rather it be a army wide rule than a 1-2 unit rule.
That would be shield of faith. While not the best rule ever... it does get better as more AP comes pouring out of the GW presses.
Have to agree that i like faith system as it is. Its simple and straight forward. Also detest the idea of counting them as orders or especially psychic phase stuff.
1 guaranteed with Celestine
1 on a 2+ which can fail (had a game where it failed the whole game)
1 on a 2+ if a character dies
Max 3 more at 40pts a pop for 50/50 chance.
Perfectly fine in a pure sisters force. Any perceived problems are the cause of metagamers.
That said, rumour says faith system will be reworked for new dex.
So enjoy it while it lasts. Hopefully instead of being nerfed it instead gets better because gw want to sell minis.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Have to agree that i like faith system as it is. Its simple and straight forward. Also detest the idea of counting them as orders or especially psychic phase stuff.
1 guaranteed with Celestine
1 on a 2+ which can fail (had a game where it failed the whole game)
1 on a 2+ if a character dies
Max 3 more at 40pts a pop for 50/50 chance.
Perfectly fine in a pure sisters force. Any perceived problems are the cause of metagamers.
That said, rumour says faith system will be reworked for new dex.
So enjoy it while it lasts. Hopefully instead of being nerfed it instead gets better because gw want to sell minis.
But back to tactics...
Killing our characters is certainly something that opponents who regularly see Sisters on the table learn to avoid doing. It's situational at best and might get you 2-3 a turn if you try real hard and that Dialogus you put in your BSS transports actually does get killed. I like the AoF as they are, scaling being the only issue. I think allowing a 2+ roll for each battalion and outrider/vanguard etc formation rather than just a 2+ for each SoB army isn't out of the question. I wouldn't give it out for patrol detachments, auxiliary or HQ detachments however. With the need to balance it with CP's you wouldn't be able to spam AoF but they would scale better.
Spamming Imagifers isn't my favorite way of bringing them to the table, but if the Imagifer had options to allow her to travel properly with our units I would be okay with that to. Would it be unheard of to allow the Imagifer to not negate Dominions Vanguard move or be able to get a jump pack and ride along with Seraphim?
Scaling isn't the only issue we have, there are a lot of tactics involved in getting the most out of the Imagifer and her AoF, it's difficult at best.
Dominions, yes (because I would be putting a Canoness in the ride in place of the Imagifier, most likely)...
Seraphim, no. Imagifiers should not get jump packs. Pretty sure their more passive Orders would not have the nice equipment for war that the Orders Militant would have on hand.
Also... Seraphim have access to the best Imagifier in the game: Celestine.
Purifying Tempest wrote: Dominions, yes (because I would be putting a Canoness in the ride in place of the Imagifier, most likely)...
Seraphim, no. Imagifiers should not get jump packs. Pretty sure their more passive Orders would not have the nice equipment for war that the Orders Militant would have on hand.
Also... Seraphim have access to the best Imagifier in the game: Celestine.
However you like it, something to address the availability of the Imagifers possible AoF around the table would certainly help. They're great for Retributors, but other than that generally just BSS, which isn't even close to being the best use for an AoF.
Another big problem with Imagifiers in rides with Dominions is that Dominions draw a LOT of hatred once they get out of their ride. Probably why people crate them in Repressors. So 2 scenarios, and we will hypothesize that Dominion moves aren't stopped by an interloper in their ride:
1) Dominions + Imagifier in Immolator scout forward. Then comes the Acts phase. Imagifier is in the crate, so she cannot try to perform her Act. Dominions and Imagifier disembark and move. Some shooting happens, and then it is the opponent's turn. Dominions get shot right back to the Emperor, because no reasonable person is going to let them sit around.
2) Dominions + Imagifier in a Repressor scout forward. Then comes the Acts phase. Imagifier is in the crate, so she nor her sisters embarked can perform any sort of test (extra Act or even the Army act by the Dominions). Which just loops back to scenario 1, if you want to perform an act of faith with an embarked Dominion squad.
Imagifiers are GREAT for Retributors. They are less great for Battle Sister Squads. I totally agree there. They're great for Seraphim, too, if any yet live from their suicidal dive on Turn 1... but Seraphim still likely have Celestine lurking around there, too, unless the two units went in drastically different directions on Turn 1. Imagifiers are also outpaced greatly by Seraphim, and I don't think Imagifiers need jet packs, though maybe putting them back on the Canoness would be a good idea.
There is still always the option of using your Army wide act of faith to support the units that stray too far away from Imagifiers and find themselves in a position to take advantage.
I respect the ability of plain Battle Sister Squads, too, and a big blob (7-8) supported by a Imagifier and/or Canoness may not be able to kill a Primarch, but they can clean up the tatters of what was left by the Dominions and Seraphim while drawing little to no fire.
In the name of keeping this purely tactical (I'll have to go check out the wishlisting/proposed rules thread later), I have been experimenting with actual means of getting an Imagifier up with the Dominions... The mechanized contingent of my army lately has been two transports with max-melta Dominions taking their Vanguard up the board followed by 2x transports with stormbolter BSS, a Canoness, and an Imagifier moving at normal pace (although I could AoF one of them if needed). By Turn 2 there's a little knot (usually in cover) of stormbolter troops with re-rolls and a potential AoF to give cover and buffs to whichever Dominion squad needs to fall back first. That little island of Sisters in the middle of the board usually endures until Turn 4 or longer against all but the most CC-oriented armies (I've been overrun by berserkers, 'stealer cult, and big blobs of boyz).
MacPhail wrote: In the name of keeping this purely tactical (I'll have to go check out the wishlisting/proposed rules thread later), I have been experimenting with actual means of getting an Imagifier up with the Dominions... The mechanized contingent of my army lately has been two transports with max-melta Dominions taking their Vanguard up the board followed by 2x transports with stormbolter BSS, a Canoness, and an Imagifier moving at normal pace (although I could AoF one of them if needed). By Turn 2 there's a little knot (usually in cover) of stormbolter troops with re-rolls and a potential AoF to give cover and buffs to whichever Dominion squad needs to fall back first. That little island of Sisters in the middle of the board usually endures until Turn 4 or longer against all but the most CC-oriented armies (I've been overrun by berserkers, 'stealer cult, and big blobs of boyz).
I think this is a solid approach to the problem. I've used a similar 'wait for me' approach to catching up to them in the past.
On the subject of bringing Dominions up the table ... Knights.
A common knight using shield rotation would expect to see a single wound from an exorcist salvo, or around three wounds melta doms or seraphim on average.
In terms of mathhammer the only thing that makes any real dent in them are penitent engines.
A.T. wrote: On the subject of bringing Dominions up the table ... Knights.
A common knight using shield rotation would expect to see a single wound from an exorcist salvo, or around three wounds melta doms or seraphim on average.
In terms of mathhammer the only thing that makes any real dent in them are penitent engines.
Thoughts/strategies?
Focus fire with multiple units. Also, make your units able to hit multiple knights. Target the first knight with a unit and force the ion shield. Then fire at the other one. I used to do the same thing with Ion Shield facings in the previous edition.
pretre wrote: Focus fire with multiple units. Also, make your units able to hit multiple knights. Target the first knight with a unit and force the ion shield. Then fire at the other one. I used to do the same thing with Ion Shield facings in the previous edition.
The trouble with meltaguns/inferno pistols is that it's a big of a giveaway which knight(s) are going to get shot at, and with so little damage if you split your units two ways you just end up with two mildly scorched knights instead of one slightly more mildly scorched knight.
Shoot inferno pistols from Seraphim first to draw out the Rotating Ion Shields, then Melta from Repressor ensconced Dominions from that back corner of the tank "coincidentally " placed with 6" of the other Knight.
pretre wrote: Focus fire with multiple units. Also, make your units able to hit multiple knights. Target the first knight with a unit and force the ion shield. Then fire at the other one. I used to do the same thing with Ion Shield facings in the previous edition.
The trouble with meltaguns/inferno pistols is that it's a big of a giveaway which knight(s) are going to get shot at, and with so little damage if you split your units two ways you just end up with two mildly scorched knights instead of one slightly more mildly scorched knight.
It's a bit of an art. As Frowbakk says, you setup each Repressor/Seraphim squad so they are within 6" of two targets.
"Spamming Imagifers isn't my favorite way of bringing them to the table, but if the Imagifer had options to allow her to travel properly with our units I would be okay with that to. Would it be unheard of to allow the Imagifer to not negate Dominions Vanguard move or be able to get a jump pack and ride along with Seraphim? "
As it stands you take three HB Ret squads and you put an Imagifier next to each one. With a Cannoness standing between two of the Rets. The Acts from the Imagifiers get dedicated to those Heavy Bolters, along with the Cannoness's re-roll bubble.
phydaux wrote: "Spamming Imagifers isn't my favorite way of bringing them to the table, but if the Imagifer had options to allow her to travel properly with our units I would be okay with that to. Would it be unheard of to allow the Imagifer to not negate Dominions Vanguard move or be able to get a jump pack and ride along with Seraphim? "
As it stands you take three HB Ret squads and you put an Imagifier next to each one. With a Cannoness standing between two of the Rets. The Acts from the Imagifiers get dedicated to those Heavy Bolters, along with the Cannoness's re-roll bubble.
Or increase the imagifer AoF bubble range to 12" and call it a day.
pretre wrote: Focus fire with multiple units. Also, make your units able to hit multiple knights. Target the first knight with a unit and force the ion shield. Then fire at the other one. I used to do the same thing with Ion Shield facings in the previous edition.
The trouble with meltaguns/inferno pistols is that it's a big of a giveaway which knight(s) are going to get shot at, and with so little damage if you split your units two ways you just end up with two mildly scorched knights instead of one slightly more mildly scorched knight.
It's a bit of an art. As Frowbakk says, you setup each Repressor/Seraphim squad so they are within 6" of two targets.
Lies. 8th edition doesn't actually have any tactics.
pretre wrote: It's a bit of an art. As Frowbakk says, you setup each Repressor/Seraphim squad so they are within 6" of two targets.
The trouble is that doesn't solve the original problem of doing too little damage.
While the meltas can always get lucky you have, on average, only upped your damage by a little while halving your firepower any given knight.
Even with several squads odds are it's going to take several turns. Durability of repressor doms vs martyr-shot possibilities of the seraphim... the latter could really do with a jump canoness here.
pretre wrote: It's a bit of an art. As Frowbakk says, you setup each Repressor/Seraphim squad so they are within 6" of two targets.
The trouble is that doesn't solve the original problem of doing too little damage.
While the meltas can always get lucky you have, on average, only upped your damage by a little while halving your firepower any given knight.
Even with several squads odds are it's going to take several turns. Durability of repressor doms vs martyr-shot possibilities of the seraphim... the latter could really do with a jump canoness here.
Yes, if we skip the stratagem and go for normal, you take ~4 (3.97) wounds off per 4 meltas. You will need something else to help even things out, although you will at least be degrading them.
Purifying Tempest wrote: Imagifiers are GREAT for Retributors. They are less great for Battle Sister Squads. I totally agree there. They're great for Seraphim, too, if any yet live from their suicidal dive on Turn 1... but Seraphim still likely have Celestine lurking around there, too, unless the two units went in drastically different directions on Turn 1. Imagifiers are also outpaced greatly by Seraphim, and I don't think Imagifiers need jet packs, though maybe putting them back on the Canoness would be a good idea.
Like I said, I don't think spamming Imagifers for AoF is a worthwhile way of playing Sisters. With the rule of 3 it becomes more useful but only because you are spamming Imagifers and Retributors over more Dominions. I would prefer getting more army wide AoF somehow because as it is now they shoehorn you into a 400ish point base of fire (if you go with the build of three Reta, 3 Imagifers and a Canoness) which I would rather not.
Anyone found anything besides Retributor/Imagifer spam to replace the loss of power we got from Dom spam?
Purifying Tempest wrote: Imagifiers are GREAT for Retributors. They are less great for Battle Sister Squads. I totally agree there. They're great for Seraphim, too, if any yet live from their suicidal dive on Turn 1... but Seraphim still likely have Celestine lurking around there, too, unless the two units went in drastically different directions on Turn 1. Imagifiers are also outpaced greatly by Seraphim, and I don't think Imagifiers need jet packs, though maybe putting them back on the Canoness would be a good idea.
Like I said, I don't think spamming Imagifers for AoF is a worthwhile way of playing Sisters. With the rule of 3 it becomes more useful but only because you are spamming Imagifers and Retributors over more Dominions. I would prefer getting more army wide AoF somehow because as it is now they shoehorn you into a 400ish point base of fire (if you go with the build of three Reta, 3 Imagifers and a Canoness) which Inwould rather not.
Anyone found anything besides Retributor/Imagifer spam to replace the loss of power we got from Dom spam?
pretre wrote: I think a balanced list is a good thing to shoot for at 2k. I didn't spam any of the items before the rule of three and I still don't.
I've gone full over on dumping the "rush" out of my list and have pretty much given up on Vanguard as part of my list. There just isn't a way to bring enough of them to make it worth your while anymore so I don't. The point savings do in some part pay for my Repressors and I have just ported my specials weapons over into lots and lots of BSS squads doubled up in Repressors or with a Dom squad doubled up with characters that I drop out if my BSS start getting dismounted to help them out or need to assault stuff.
It does make the vehicles I stick a few Repentia in with a BSS not stick out so badly as they would usually be the only vehicle not using Vanguard before the Rule of 3. Seraphim I use about as much as I did before, Imagifers sitting nearby ready to mount up 1st turn and drive off after they give the Seraphim an AoF hopefully. Dialogus watch the flanks and push back the deepstrikers with eloquent but harsh language.
I have tried, but just can't see myself buying into allies and haven't yet in 8ed.
dracpanzer wrote: Anyone found anything besides Retributor/Imagifer spam to replace the loss of power we got from Dom spam?
Seraphim are stronger than I'd realized... with the save enhancement from Celestine and a movement boost from the Imagifiers (I've been deploying Seraphim close enough the Retributers that they, rather than heavy bolters, get the Turn 1 AoF), they can get where they need to, hit pretty hard, and last beyond the alpha with careful placement.
Purifying Tempest wrote: Imagifiers are GREAT for Retributors. They are less great for Battle Sister Squads. I totally agree there. They're great for Seraphim, too, if any yet live from their suicidal dive on Turn 1... but Seraphim still likely have Celestine lurking around there, too, unless the two units went in drastically different directions on Turn 1. Imagifiers are also outpaced greatly by Seraphim, and I don't think Imagifiers need jet packs, though maybe putting them back on the Canoness would be a good idea.
Like I said, I don't think spamming Imagifers for AoF is a worthwhile way of playing Sisters. With the rule of 3 it becomes more useful but only because you are spamming Imagifers and Retributors over more Dominions. I would prefer getting more army wide AoF somehow because as it is now they shoehorn you into a 400ish point base of fire (if you go with the build of three Reta, 3 Imagifers and a Canoness) which I would rather not.
Anyone found anything besides Retributor/Imagifer spam to replace the loss of power we got from Dom spam?
No, haven't settled on a replacement. Additional Seraphim don't quite make it up, but they're a number 2 if trying to stay pure. Same goes for Exorcists.
I might try 2 9-woman units of Seraphim, and let St.C sit behind the lines on T1, but I'm not really sure if that would pay off. Seraphim really do need the AoF to be effective.
Just soup. Once I've got 3 Doms and Rets, I might as well just outsource and bring along my Shadowsword, and an IGCP battery.
I'm starting to think BA might be a good soup companion. They have scouts to keep the way clear for our Dominions, and can bring DC with Forlorn Fury and On Wings of Fire to run alongside our Dominions and Seraphim and Celestine to provide a marginally more resilient and very immediate melee threat that takes the heat off of us. Unfortunately, I don't have BA to try this out.
I tried Blood Angels Death Company and found that they become a trade piece which usually gets lodged on a cheap chaff unit.
While it was utterly hilarious watching Death Company chop up 40 point units... it wasn't particularly effective. It does add some more saturation to the front lines, though. I just think there's some better ways to clear chaff (oh, hello there Hellhounds).
I, personally, run some IG for extra troops, some cheap bodies for space, and Hellhounds to support the Doms and Seraphims. The flamers on that thing are silly good, and they can take a good bit of fire before going down. I also don't have to worry about the "need to roll a 9+" game, either. Catachan for maximized laughs as you chew through chaff for your Dominions.
I know I'm excited to see if space wolves get some love. I'm ready to dust off my TWC if they get any better or any strategems worthwhile. I haven't run pure sisters since probably October last year. There was always a hole that allies could fill.
deviantduck wrote: I know I'm excited to see if space wolves get some love. I'm ready to dust off my TWC if they get any better or any strategems worthwhile. I haven't run pure sisters since probably October last year. There was always a hole that allies could fill.
Yeah, I hope my wolves get something good too.
I've done plenty of pure sisters, but it's become much harder since the FAQ. I just run out of things don't aggressively not want in my army.
As much as I’d love to run pure Sisters again (as I did back in 5th) there just aren’t enough tools in the tool bag to make it truly competitive. As is I run 3 units of stormbolter / Inferno Doms in Repressors and 3 units of Stormbolter / Inferno Sisters in Repressors coming out to about 1200 pts with the rest as Tallarn Guard outflanking. The girls protected in boxes give my flanking Guard enough time to set up proper attacks and makes for very good synergy.
Purifying Tempest wrote: Anyone found anything besides Retributor/Imagifer spam to replace the loss of power we got from Dom spam?
For now, Allies
True. I've been getting excellent results from Scions and Bullgryns... Inquisition is fun and fluffy but not terribly strong for the points. Still working to fine tune the pure Sisters list, and I'm emboldened by what I've heard reported around here, but Allies do seem to do the trick.
davidgr33n wrote: As much as I’d love to run pure Sisters again (as I did back in 5th) there just aren’t enough tools in the tool bag to make it truly competitive. As is I run 3 units of stormbolter / Inferno Doms in Repressors and 3 units of Stormbolter / Inferno Sisters in Repressors coming out to about 1200 pts with the rest as Tallarn Guard outflanking. The girls protected in boxes give my flanking Guard enough time to set up proper attacks and makes for very good synergy.
I was doing well with 2k of Brigade Sisters. I think in my most recent list I added in a Culexus, but you could certainly do without.
Brigade has way too many required HS slots to fill for my tastes. But I have been running dual SoB Battalions to good effect, my amount of "lets see what this does" points is way down post FAQ, but I still sneak a bit in.
dracpanzer wrote: Brigade has way too many required HS slots to fill for my tastes. But I have been running dual SoB Battalions to good effect, my amount of "lets see what this does" points is way down post FAQ, but I still sneak a bit in.
I LOVE how Rets, i was playing with 6 until rule of 3..... at least my BSS can have my left over 12 HB's
My tastes I suppose, I have never played Sisters so they can sit and shoot. I bring some to cover my backfield objective and provide some supporting fire. Easily covered by one squad and I would often give in to the temptation to do without it pre FAQ. HB Rets bore me and the other options are too expensive for what they do. Apart from experimenting with the Index at the start of 8ed I never take two squads and three is enough of a point chunk to take the mech flavor out of the army and my enthusiasm just goes away for it. Three is way too many as a Req for me, I'll stick with dual battalions.
dracpanzer wrote: Brigade has way too many required HS slots to fill for my tastes. But I have been running dual SoB Battalions to good effect, my amount of "lets see what this does" points is way down post FAQ, but I still sneak a bit in.
I hear that... getting a break on Elites and Heavies allows some extra investment in Fast Attack at the cost of a cheap Canoness. Here's my non-Forge World dual Battalion list for this month's game... I'm excited to see how it plays. Double Battalion, 1997 points, 112 PL, 13 CP
I got to play with the Valiant again this weekend. The thing adds so much that my army was missing. I imagine the results would be a little different if you go up on a list tailored to handle knights easily, but still, the thing deflects so much fire away from the rest of my paper-thin army.
The only big loss I am feeling is the Seraphim. Not being able to scream up the table and assassinate a target is hurting. Also, not having them to consume my acts of faith early game seems to be a bit odd as well, as I cannot seem to get in some good and meaningful acts. But the Valiant still seems to be making up for even that.
I came up with a list that included a Seraphim squad, another canoness, an imagifier, some more retributors, another immolator, filling out some squads throughout the army with buffer bodies, and an exorcist/penitent engine/second seraphim squad. And I caught myself wondering if all of that could fill the hole left by trading out the Valiant. I'm still not sure. I'll play with it both ways, especially when the Knight starts either getting tailored against or just grinding people's nerves too much, but for right now... the model has been an exceptional add to the army to help fill those points when list building starts becoming rinse and repeat.
dracpanzer wrote: Brigade has way too many required HS slots to fill for my tastes. But I have been running dual SoB Battalions to good effect, my amount of "lets see what this does" points is way down post FAQ, but I still sneak a bit in.
I hear that... getting a break on Elites and Heavies allows some extra investment in Fast Attack at the cost of a cheap Canoness. Here's my non-Forge World dual Battalion list for this month's game... I'm excited to see how it plays. Double Battalion, 1997 points, 112 PL, 13 CP
I would honestly drop the combi-flamer off of one of those Canonesses (the Warlord one), and keep her in the back near your Retributors. Makes it more difficult to score "Slay the Warlord", gives those Rets a bit more support with rerolling 1s. Also saves like 9 points.
I also think the rhino is better played as equal number of Battle Sisters with Bolters. I didn't see anything in your list that would be well served in a rhino, and it becomes 77 points that will largely be ignored by your opponent and not provide much to the army in the big picture.
That's kind of my problem with Rhinos overall. Many other Transports in the game are actually serviceable for more than 77 points of extra T7 wounds for the occupants. Look at Immolators, Wave Serpents, Razorbacks, Skyweavers (the Harlequin transport, whatever it is), and Raiders. All of them do more than just shuffle models around, which is all a Rhino does for comparable points.
That is seriously the only dings I can find for that list, though. Maybe take the points you saved to get another BSS or buff up the Rets with some extra bodies or something. I guess the Rhino MAY be able to do something like transport the Rets at the beginning of the game, then first turn they shuffle out while other sisters embark and move. I just... meh, feels still like a solid investment in points for a minor return.
Really good points across the board... Thanks! I know those combi-flamers are far from optimized... it's partly a constraint of my collection and partly a nod to the holy trinity. It doesn't seem right to run a sisters list with no flamers. One of those Canonesses definitely does hang back to buff the Rets, making her flamer even more ridiculous.
The Rhino is mostly a points issue, although if I drop both combis and a plasma pistol I can upgrade it to an Immolator. As a Rhino, it would haul two BSS storm bolter squads to a midfield objective and then screen them against charges. Not a great purpose, but it could always shuttle survivors between objectives late in the game. If I ran a fourth Immo it would be the melee Canoness and a BSS squad looking for a fight... probably a much better use.
My daughter has officially played her very first game of Warhammer 40,000, using her own list.
I'm a proud papa of course.
She chose Sisters of Battle and INSISTED that they be pure even when I told her she could use Uriah. I am a proud papa.
She and i decided to play Militarum Tempestus vs. her Sisters of Battle. She absolutely blitzed my asrmy as you'd expect, but she exhibited surprising patience with the rest of the force, cutting me off badly as far as drops went and forcing me to deploy most of my Tempestus to the far right side. This in conjunction with their short range was a real problem.
So I did what I could and used command points like they were going out of style. Celestine got killed but resurrected and came back. I never killed her again (she had two wounds left at games end). She used the Hospitaler to get her to full at one point so that the Geminae could take wounds for her again. However the weight of my shooting finally did start to take its toll, and the right side of the board became mine after i was finally able to shake loose of combat from the Seraphim late game and Get back in the Fight. Unfortunately, she could get to objectives SOOOO much faster and my lone Rough Rider that was left, my last hope of tying one of the objectives (I went second) and outright winning the game got killed by a rampaging Canoness). Both armies were in complete tatters.
The final score was 8-7. We both held two objectives at end of turn 6. That pushed us to secondaries. I had Line breaker, she had Warlord. So the Taurox Prime she called in round one turned out to be the deciding factor. She won by First Blood.
dracpanzer wrote: Brigade has way too many required HS slots to fill for my tastes. But I have been running dual SoB Battalions to good effect, my amount of "lets see what this does" points is way down post FAQ, but I still sneak a bit in.
I hear that... getting a break on Elites and Heavies allows some extra investment in Fast Attack at the cost of a cheap Canoness. Here's my non-Forge World dual Battalion list for this month's game... I'm excited to see how it plays. Double Battalion, 1997 points, 112 PL, 13 CP
Reroll 1d6 every turn for five turns.
and
Ignore moral on a unit every turn for four turns.
and
Attempt to stop a Psychic power a turn, for four turns.
. Now to my Necromunda terrain and warbands. 
.
