phydaux wrote: He didn't have anything inside the Landraiders or the Razorbacks?
No. Nothing inside.
That's mystifying. Was he playtesting some kind of proof of concept army list?
No. I am lead to believe he had been winning games with that list, because the saturation of armor was just too great for other armies to deal with, and the Land Raiders offer a lot of firepower.
It also looks extremely similar to the thing the priest-looking dude on page 27 of the new rulebook has on his back. I hate to say it, but I'm guessing GW would do plastic Priests before Sisters.
And really, it's probably some Marine thing anyway.
Something I was just thinking about - does anyone else think that the Canoness should help with Acts of Faith in some way? It seems odd that (unless I'm mistaken) they're supposed to be among the most faithful units and yet don't allow for extra Acts of Faith or any such.
If nothing else, I think they should at least be able to give themselves a free Act of Faith each turn.
Taikishi wrote: Since a foot slogger was brought up, this is a list I spit balled together earlier today based on someone else's idea of 100+ Battle Sisters, Imagifiers and Dialogus. And, no, I don't think the Dialogus does enough to warrant its points but, again, this is someone else's idea made real.
Comes out to exactly 2000 points.
Spoiler:
HQ Canoness w/ Power axe & BP Canoness w/ Eviscerator & BP Celestine w/ 2 Geminae
Troops
15 Battle Sisters w/ 3 Storm Bolters
15 Battle Sisters w/ 3 Storm Bolters
15 Battle Sisters w/ 3 Storm Bolters
15 Battle Sisters w/ 3 Storm Bolters
15 Battle Sisters w/ 3 Storm Bolters
Elites
Dialogus
Dialogus
Imagifier
Imagifier
Imagifier
Fast Attack
5 Dominions w/ 4 Meltaguns, 1 Combi-plasma
5 Dominions w/ 4 Meltaguns, 1 Combi-plasma
5 Seraphim w/ 4 Inferno Pistols, Power sword
Heavy Support
5 Retributors w/ 3 Heavy Bolters
5 Retributors w/ 3 Heavy Bolters
5 Retributors w/ 3 Heavy Bolters
Dedicated Transport
Sororitas Repressor
Sororitas Repressor
Doubt this is very good, but I'm sure it'll look impressive on the table!
Edit: Just noticed that Battle Scribe didn't flag this as a Troops choice short of being a Brigade so points would have to be shuffled somehow to get another BSS.
That looks quite fun, though I think I'd want more than Storm Bolters on the regular sisters.
If you get a game with it, could you let us know how it does?
No. I am lead to believe he had been winning games with that list, because the saturation of armor was just too great for other armies to deal with, and the Land Raiders offer a lot of firepower.
Yeah, I keep running into stuff like this. People seem to have had some very different impressions of the balance of 8th such that I'm sometimes seeing lists that are just 100% kitted out to kill tanks, with more lascannons than bolters, and some that maybe have 2 anti-tank guns. And then a lot of people seem to have not really grokked just how vulnerable stuff like shooty dreads and Land Raiders are to getting tied up in CC -- there are lots of "5 vehicles surrounding a buff HQ" lists, often with vehicles within 2" of each other. I've had people be surprised when I charge a Wave Serpent or a Repressor or a Vulture at their tanks to shut them up for a turn.
Melissia wrote: Someone already did earlier in this thread, actually. A bit too lazy to look for it atm tho.
As for the other questions...
Flamer does d6 auto-hits. Not auto-wounds. You roll d6 to calculate number of automatic hits, then calculate to-wound as normal, then armor saves as normal for each wound that caused damage.
Meltagun rolls to-hit as normal, then to-wound as normal, then if it successfully wounds, it does 1d6 damage, or 2d6 take the highest if at half range.
Thanks Mel. For the Melta, if 1 Wound MEQ gets hit then I don't really need to roll the D6. But if it were a Character with more than one wound then I would, right?
Just juggling loadouts for BSSs & Doms.
* Weapons that deal 1 damage (like bolters) will never overkill a target because they'll either leave it with wounds remaining or strip the model of its last wound then move to the next.
* Weapons that more than 1 damage, or deal random damage, and don't deal mortal wounds work like this:
1. Deal damage to model (opponent's choice but must damage wounded models first). Roll damage if needed.
2. Did damage kill model?
--Yes: Repeat step 1. Excess wounds (ex. Penitent engine dealing 3 wounds to a model with 2) are lost.
--No: Apply all wounds to target, repeat step 1.
* Weapons that deal mortal wounds are a combination of both. If a weapon deals 6 mortal wounds to a unit of six 1-wound models, kill them all. If it deals 5 mortal wounds to a unit of 2-wound models, kill two of them and a third has 1 wound remaining.
EXCEPTION
If a model has the ability to ignore damage, multi-wound weapons need to roll their damage regardless of how many wounds the model has (see Iron Hands Chapter Tactic) because the model could theoretically shrug off every wound from that weapon.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for SB vs Flamer vs Melta, here's the expected averages vs MEQ, T5-7 MEQ, and a T8 MEQ (like an Exorcist, but without the 6++) -- all of which are using Dominon squads since you can spam 5 of each of these in the unit:
And that's why people like SBs on battle sister squads now. Because you can usually get two rounds of shooting off with them while only getting one off with flamers. Meltas are what you stick on dominions, where their numbers results in a lot more wounds than otherwise on hard to kill targets. I mean you can put flamers on them. And it'll work. But it's kinda expensive pointswise.
No. I am lead to believe he had been winning games with that list, because the saturation of armor was just too great for other armies to deal with, and the Land Raiders offer a lot of firepower.
Yeah, I keep running into stuff like this. People seem to have had some very different impressions of the balance of 8th such that I'm sometimes seeing lists that are just 100% kitted out to kill tanks, with more lascannons than bolters, and some that maybe have 2 anti-tank guns. And then a lot of people seem to have not really grokked just how vulnerable stuff like shooty dreads and Land Raiders are to getting tied up in CC -- there are lots of "5 vehicles surrounding a buff HQ" lists, often with vehicles within 2" of each other. I've had people be surprised when I charge a Wave Serpent or a Repressor or a Vulture at their tanks to shut them up for a turn.
I've been seeing that too, and I run that with my Imperial Guard [with infantry screening]. Vehicles are just really strong.
The thing with charging a vehicle is, if your don't have heavy antitank melee available, or inferno pistols, you're not going to be going far. And, you can get it out of melee with a good countercharge unit floating around nearby.
In addition, a token infantry force can adequately delay the enemy for the vehicles to fall back an get off a third or fourth salvo.
vipoid wrote:Something I was just thinking about - does anyone else think that the Canoness should help with Acts of Faith in some way? It seems odd that (unless I'm mistaken) they're supposed to be among the most faithful units and yet don't allow for extra Acts of Faith or any such.
If nothing else, I think they should at least be able to give themselves a free Act of Faith each turn.
It would be nice, and it would make sense, but she would need to be more expensive. The Imagifier is way too expensive right now, though.
It certainly fits the description in the fluff, "bones of a saint" and all that. By the level of detail, it's small, like a banner pole topper or a backpack-mounted icon. It would be a super fluffy bit for an Imagifier or a not-so-fluffy bit for plenty of others: Priests, Inquisitors, Chaplains, etc. I'm too fatigued to hope, frankly, that it's for us. I'll just be shocked and pleased when it is or shrug and sigh when it isn't.
It is worth noting that a number of primaris marines already released have taken to wearing these holy artifacts as cod pieces. So I imagine it'll be something along those lines.
Captain Joystick wrote: It is worth noting that a number of primaris marines already released have taken to wearing these holy artifacts as cod pieces. So I imagine it'll be something along those lines.
Melissia wrote: That piece is on top of something, not embedded in something.
The 'flatness' of the bones have also been commented on. Some have theorized its part of a terrain piece or something less detailed, but I think it looks that way because they're supposed to not be real bones at all.
I could see it as being a part of a chaplain's backpack or the top piece of a banner; an abstract representation of a reliquary to represent a badge of office and not an actual reliquary of holy significance.
In that regard, I think it's an Astartes piece because an actual member of the Ministorum would use real ones everywhere, with only the most authentic Saint's bones.
Melissia wrote: That piece is on top of something, not embedded in something.
The 'flatness' of the bones have also been commented on. Some have theorized its part of a terrain piece or something less detailed, but I think it looks that way because they're supposed to not be real bones at all.
I could see it as being a part of a chaplain's backpack or the top piece of a banner; an abstract representation of a reliquary to represent a badge of office and not an actual reliquary of holy significance.
In that regard, I think it's an Astartes piece because an actual member of the Ministorum would use real ones everywhere, with only the most authentic Saint's bones.
This.
I agree with the "flatness" of it. I'd run with the "Terrain Objective" a lot more than a new model piece. I've not yet seen a Primaris model that is mod-able yet either, they are all varying levels of push-fit.
This is good and bad. Good because they can get so much more detail, poses and things like Sisters with their flowing robes/hair / doves can be done.
Bad because I loved the 7th ed Marine kits, with 25 arm options, 56 head variants and 154 shoulder pads (joke numbers).
With the above in mind, this is not at the "push-fit level" of detail. Way too flat for that. Have you got the new Celestine model? those Doves though xD
Melissia wrote: Sad thing is, I'm pretty sure this was actually an unintended result.
I agree. I don't think that the design team intentionally buffs/nerfs units for sales reasons.
I have a feeling that this could change.
I understand what you said about "it can't be proven" because of previous examples. But seeing at how flexible they are becoming (Yearly "general's Handbook"?), they could easily include this tactic for their marketing, buffing and nerfing as years go by to influence sales.
One would have to look at current sales/buffs and the pricing of things in 8th edition. i.e. "Are the Primarines good?", Inceptors?, Hellblasters?, the new units coming out (Chaplain/apothecary/dread). If they are rather buffed, then come down in skill/up in points by the end of the year, that'll be our new examples.
Feel like this force is lacking something, but an idea I've been working on today. Don't really like running the BSS, but would rather have the extra CPs for a Battalion and still have the Outrider detachment.
Why Imagifer? It seems like a waste if it's driving around. And why flamers on the bikers? dropping the imagifer could get you two more Meltas for the Doms.
And why both Doms in one basket? It seems like dropping a Immo and taking another Repressor seems like a better idea.
Also, you only need 3 BSS for Bat, right? Swap one out for Doms with SB.
A lot of it was trying to get points for the bikes, flamers or not. I originally had a second Repressor, both Minion squads had a full 5 meltaguns, didn't have the extra BSS, and was struggling to find points/fit points. It was also running two 3-man regular bike squads, but I really just didn't like that idea in the long run -- the squad felt too fragile.
Going back to the original setup, or even making the changes you suggest, I feel like the list is missing something but I can't put my finger on it.
That's what I've been thinking it's missing, but I was struggling to find points for PEs or Terminators and didn't like any of the assault squad alternatives.
Also not sold that a single squad of 2 PEs is enough of a counter-charge given the mobility of the rest of the army. It's also missing bubble wrap, but I was also looking at a force in case I decide to go to NOVA expecting Ravenspam (though IIRC, Nova isn't permitting FW so no Repressors).
Hmmm.....
Edit: Double checked. FW is legal, though it's also right after GenCon and I'm not sure I'm going to have the money after that x.x Still want to work on this list, though, as much as a TAC as for lulz.
I hadn't really looked at Arcos but at a second glance they do seem pretty great.
What I hadn't realised is that the priest will give each one an extra D3 attacks! Thats 3xD3 S5 attacks each that reroll to hit in the first round of combat, on a 2W model with a 5++ for only 15pts.
Between these and the Storm Bolters. this is truly the buckets o' dice edition.
phydaux wrote: He didn't have anything inside the Landraiders or the Razorbacks?
No. Nothing inside.
That's mystifying. Was he playtesting some kind of proof of concept army list?
No. I am lead to believe he had been winning games with that list, because the saturation of armor was just too great for other armies to deal with, and the Land Raiders offer a lot of firepower.
So was is that your girls & vehicles just had too much Melta for him? No one does Melta like the Sisters.
That, and Big C seemed to do really well. I see a HUGE nerf coming to her, and that RIGHT quick.
Melissia wrote: IDK, she was made this powerful at the end of 7th, and kept this powerful with 8th. I think they want her to be this strong.
No. That's a trick. Remember, GW comes from the same country that gave us George R.R. Martin. And just like the Fat Man in a Hat, they aren't happy unless all their fans are miserable.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote: And that's why people like SBs on battle sister squads now. Because you can usually get two rounds of shooting off with them while only getting one off with flamers. Meltas are what you stick on dominions, where their numbers results in a lot more wounds than otherwise on hard to kill targets. I mean you can put flamers on them. And it'll work. But it's kinda expensive pointswise.
Giving the Doms Meltas, while AWESOME, in my mind doesn't seem to take best advantage of their Vanguard move. My thought is to give the Doms and their Sister Superior all Stormbolters, and let the BSS, and their Sister Superior, all take Meltas/Combi-Meltas. The Rets, of course, get Heavy Bolters.
Keep in mind that my Sisters are a foot slogging army. As always, Sisters are a short range firepower army. And if we keep in mind the insightful comment from MacPhail on Page 12 of this Tactica, they are a Beta Strike army.
With our infantry units so cheap even after being well upgraded, a Sisters army is going to have a LOT of drops. That means we will be going second. And we WANT to go second. We want out opponent to advance towards us, into range of our Domino's Stormbolters and our Ret's Heavy Bolters. And yes, our Rets will be moving & shooting, accepting the -1 for the glorious opportunity of hip-firing four Heavy Bolters every turn. Sometimes even TWICE a turn!
With the Doms & Rets killing enemy infantry like flies, and the Doms eventually, inevitably, dying because that's what the Vanguard does, that will leave the BSSs to mop up with their Melta.
This all makes perfect sense in my head. I just need to buy $600 worth of Sisters models to test it out.
phydaux wrote: He didn't have anything inside the Landraiders or the Razorbacks?
No. Nothing inside.
That's mystifying. Was he playtesting some kind of proof of concept army list?
No. I am lead to believe he had been winning games with that list, because the saturation of armor was just too great for other armies to deal with, and the Land Raiders offer a lot of firepower.
So way is that your girls & vehicles just had too much Melta for him? No one does Melta like the Sisters.
That, and Big C seemed to do really well. I see a HUGE nerf coming to her, and that RIGHT quick.
No, I have about a similar, maybe marginally higher, level of antitank than the average list. Two melta squads and their melta-armed transports, plus a Penitent Engine. More importantly, I was fast.
Most other armies wouldn't be able to engage him in close quarters until their second turn, at best, and because he has 6 drops he's almost always going first, so he gets two salvos against most other players, realistically three-and-a-half because he can sack the Razorbacks to protect the Land Raiders from those charges, and get to fire a seriously brutal overwatch with his tanks when they do get charged.
Three razorbacks can keep the enemy deepstrikers, which Tyranid and Ork T1 Assault lists rely on, well away from the serious tanks, and on T2 Assault lists, the Razorbacks can intervene as well to protect the Land Raiders for a turn. Since the League, for some unknown reason, is using Power Levels, he's also got 6 H-K Missiles to dump into enemy armor T1 and crack open some Rhinos, and storm bolters across the board to further bolters his overwatch.
There are two key elements of the Sisters that gave me the decisive advantage: I can cross the 24" no-man's land in 1 turn from an on-board start, therefore ignoring the deep-strike perimeter the Razorbacks create, and my units make their move before the start of the game.
Because my Immolators were already halfway there when they took his opening salvo, they's already done their primary job. It's impossible for him to stop my troops from moving up. It doesn't matter if they blow up, it's too late for him, my troops are already there.
I have to disagree with your assessment that we are a beta-strike army. Doubled-up Dominions in Repressors makes for an absolutely fantastic alpha strike, the likes of which none can truly match. Combine this with Seraphim and Celestine and their absolutely insane movement speed, we can access almost the entire enemy deployment zone for Melee, Melta, and Storm Bolter Rapid Fire in the first turn, and there's not a single thing the enemy can do to prevent it, because unlike, say, Berzerker Boxes, our tanks have already done their job regardless of whether we go first or second. And doubling-up Dominions in Repressors does make for a fairly good chance of first go.
Hold on, I re-read my post, and I don't in any way intend to imply that you are playing the wrong way by disagreeing with your assessment.
I'm sure we're more than capable of a second-strike, but our sheer first-strike potential should not be discounted, I think, when building lists.
There are advantages and disadvantages to both.
Inherently, a Repressor or Immolator has less firepower than a squad of Dominions. So a second-strike list would achieve a higher theoretical density of fire. However, a second strike list also has to suffer the enemy's full firepower on its first turn, yields the strategic initiative to the enemy, and is likely unable to bring its full firepower to bear in its first round of shooting, meaning it has to suffer a theoretical 2 turns of firing before it reaches range to achieve it's hypothetical maximum fire density.
The way I see it is, that a first strike list, especially considering our short range, has initiative. I get to chose where I go, and I get to chose where the enemy goes. I get to chose which targets I shoot at and I get to chose which targets the enemy shoots at. A second strike list, however, is reactive. The enemy chooses where their forces go, and I have to move in response, and the enemy chooses what his forces will be in range and line of fire of, and I react as I can.
Of course, that's not to say that defense-and-counterattack is always inferior to premptive attack. After all, information is also an important part of any strategy game, and a reactive play is inherently a better-informed play than a proactive play. Situations may warrant different approaches as the need arises, so most importantly, a list must be flexible enough to alter its strategy as the actual, not theoretical, situation requires.
Neither way is strictly correct, as it's only a wrong way to play if it doesn't win.
That, and Big C seemed to do really well. I see a HUGE nerf coming to her, and that RIGHT quick.
If they end up nerfing Celestine, they'd have to seriously rebalance the rest of the faction. Celestine is a massive crutch that fills a huge amount of gaps in the army.
I'm just coming back to the game after... so many years... It's Celestine who brought me back, to be honest. Sisters of Battle in 2nd edition were my first real army, and it's interesting to see how much the army has changed (and kind of super disappointing to see how it's in a lot of ways still the same).
I never actually picked up any Repentia because I didn't care for the models, and in 3rd edition at least they were considered a pretty bad unit. Has that changed at all? Is it worth my time to hunt down some good looking proxy models, or are they not really very viable. Because they don't look viable, but I feel like I may be missing something since it's been so long since i've played.
phydaux wrote: No. That's a trick. Remember, GW comes from the same country that gave us George R.R. Martin. And just like the Fat Man in a Hat, they aren't happy unless all their fans are miserable.
GRRM was born in NJ.
Giving the Doms Meltas, while AWESOME, in my mind doesn't seem to take best advantage of their Vanguard move. My thought is to give the Doms and their Sister Superior all Stormbolters, and let the BSS, and their Sister Superior, all take Meltas/Combi-Meltas. The Rets, of course, get Heavy Bolters.
SB don't need the Vanguard to be useful, Melta do.
Keep in mind that my Sisters are a foot slogging army. As always, Sisters are a short range firepower army. And if we keep in mind the insightful comment from MacPhail on Page 12 of this Tactica, they are a Beta Strike army.
Okay, a couple things here. Sisters CAN be a foot slogging army. For most of their history, however, they have played best as a mech or mixed mech army and not a foot slogging one. This includes now. Additionally, although they do beta strike excellently, they can also be an alpha strike army.
With our infantry units so cheap even after being well upgraded, a Sisters army is going to have a LOT of drops. That means we will be going second. And we WANT to go second. We want out opponent to advance towards us, into range of our Domino's Stormbolters and our Ret's Heavy Bolters. And yes, our Rets will be moving & shooting, accepting the -1 for the glorious opportunity of hip-firing four Heavy Bolters every turn. Sometimes even TWICE a turn!
And if you're playing against an army that doesn't advance and just shoots you off the board? Sometimes you need to take out the superheavy, giant battlesuit, etc. first before it blows up half your army.
Melissia wrote: They buff the priest himself, since he is an Adeptus Ministorum unit within 6" of himself. I don't think they stack.
You're right. The wording on War Hymns says you get the additional attack if you meet the proper keywords and you're within 6" of any friendly Ministorum Priest. There can be 100 priests within 6", you still only get +1A because of any.
I gave up Sisters and the game after the Witch Hunters codex. It felt like a slap in the face after waiting so long, especially in 3rd edition where everything was suddenly moving to plastic and getting new units and expanded rules. For a long time I said the only thing that would bring me back to 40k was a good Sisters codex and good new models. I ended up coming back to play some Tyranids a few years ago, but otherwise I stayed away. But I have a few friends who are starting over with this edition and they were excited to tell me that there were new plastic Sisters. It turns out it was only Celestine, but it is a beautiful model and once I bought it I realized how much I had missed playing Sisters and how much I liked the character of the army, if not always it's execution. So I've decided to give them a try again and hope to go that GW decides to give them a real update sometime soon. But I've been waiting 20 years, so I know I shouldn't get my hopes up.
jake wrote: I gave up Sisters and the game after the Witch Hunters codex. It felt like a slap in the face after waiting so long, especially in 3rd edition where everything was suddenly moving to plastic and getting new units and expanded rules. For a long time I said the only thing that would bring me back to 40k was a good Sisters codex and good new models. I ended up coming back to play some Tyranids a few years ago, but otherwise I stayed away. But I have a few friends who are starting over with this edition and they were excited to tell me that there were new plastic Sisters. It turns out it was only Celestine, but it is a beautiful model and once I bought it I realized how much I had missed playing Sisters and how much I liked the character of the army, if not always it's execution. So I've decided to give them a try again and hope to go that GW decides to give them a real update sometime soon. But I've been waiting 20 years, so I know I shouldn't get my hopes up.
Ah, fair enough.
phydaux wrote: That, and Big C seemed to do really well. I see a HUGE nerf coming to her, and that RIGHT quick.
If they wanted to nerf her, I wonder what they'd do.
- They could just raise her cost, but with her 2 guards she's already exceeding Land Raider costs. I think that would just lead people to take one guard instead of both.
- They could remove her aura, but it isn't exactly strong at the moment for anything other than Seraphim.
- They could stop her from handing out a free Act of Faith, but it would be a bit weird if a Living Saint was somehow incapable of inspiring faith (or no better at it than an Imagnifier).
- They could reduce her strength or attacks, but I imagine that will be something of a fine line. Her guards have very little offensive ability, so if you weaken her own offence too much it could cripple her entirely.
- They could reduce her durability and/or the durability of her guards. However, I don't think they can really knock more than 1 wound off her (having the same as a Canoness doesn't really seem right). And, given the aforementioned lack of offence on her guards you're really only bringing them for their durability - so if that gets reduced they'll probably have to reduce their points as well (otherwise I doubt people will bother taking them).
- They could stop her from bringing back a guard for free each turn (forcing her her use an Act of Faith for that). This could work, though again I don't know if you'd have to knock some points off the guard to keep them viable.
To be honest, I find myself wondering if it was a mistake to give her super-bodyguards in the first place. Especially ones that she can freely revive each turn. If I was going to nerf her, I'd definitely look at those and/or at her ability to resurrect one each turn without using an Act of Faith.
On a personal note, I find myself missing her 5th edition counterpart. I liked it best when she was cheap, could revive indefinitely but wasn't a power-house.
That said, I think they also need to look at the Canoness. Part of the reason Celestine is so valuable is that virtually all her abilities are unique to her. She:
- Can move 12".
- Has 7 wounds and a 2+ save.
- Can generate a free AoF each turn.
- Can revive once per game on full wounds.
- Buffs nearby SoB and IG units with an Aura.
- Has 6 attacks with a S7 sword.
- Has a Heavy Flamer.
- Brings revivable bodyguards which match her 2+/4+ save.
Now, obviously the Canoness won't (and shouldn't) bring all of those - especially with Miraculous Intervention being unique to Living Saints. However, is a Jump Pack for 12" movement really too much to ask? Likewise, can one of the most faithful units in the army really do nothing to help out Acts of Faith?
My point is, nerfing Celestine (if it happens at all) is only half the solution - the Canoness also needs to bring more to the table.
I know everybody wants it, but I just don't see them giving her the jump pack back. Or any other upgrade that requires physical representation on the model that isn't present on the metal canoness or any of the sister superior-ish models that can be fielded as the canoness in a pinch. 'Invisible' stuff like bionics and digital weapons are far more likely.
And I don't think the canoness needs to be Celestine Light. In fact I explicitly don't want that for her. Let the space marines have the tanky fighty HQs, and let the canoness- the nominal leader of your convent, be a bigger force multiplier with auras representing word and reputation driving your girls to greatness. Celestine is the Emperor's will made manifest and a miracle, the canoness should be great within the limits of what a human being can be.
Funny you should say that; at the moment, she's a space marine captain-lite, the only reason people usually get her is the same reason people get a barebones captain, the rerolling of 1s on to-hits.
Do you really think it's more likely GW will make her drastically different from this?
Captain Joystick wrote: I know everybody wants it, but I just don't see them giving her the jump pack back. Or any other upgrade that requires physical representation on the model that isn't present on the metal canoness or any of the sister superior-ish models that can be fielded as the canoness in a pinch. 'Invisible' stuff like bionics and digital weapons are far more likely.
If only GW had the capacity to make new models.
Captain Joystick wrote: Let the space marines have the tanky fighty HQs, and let the canoness- the nominal leader of your convent, be a bigger force multiplier with auras representing word and reputation driving your girls to greatness.
If this is in response to my post I really don't understand where you're coming from. Would giving the Cannoness the option of a Jump Pack make her Celestine lite? Would allowing her to hand out an extra Act of Faith on a 4+ (or even just use a free one on herself each turn) make her Celestine Lite?
Now, obviously the Canoness won't (and shouldn't) bring all of those - especially with Miraculous Intervention being unique to Living Saints. However, is a Jump Pack for 12" movement really too much to ask? Likewise, can one of the most faithful units in the army really do nothing to help out Acts of Faith?
My point is, nerfing Celestine (if it happens at all) is only half the solution - the Canoness also needs to bring more to the table.
Forgive me if this is a really dumb question (I haven't been around the hobby for over a decade), but is there any precedence for giving a unit wargear that isn't actually part of their physical model? To me, any major changes to how these units work (like adding a jetpack) would have to come with a corresponding model, right? Might that be largely why Sisters have been mostly ignored for so long? Can't really do one without the other, so to speak.
There had been since the beginning of 40k. But over the last few years, GW's been moving to remove any options not represented on an existing model. For ranges that have not been updated in decades, like Sisters and the Inquisition, it's served as a massive culling.
It still shows in the sisters range. The canoness only comes with a power sword, eviscerator, plasma pistol and inferno pistol. A fraction of her available wargear.
Also a big scroll and book that don't directly represent anything anymore.
Melissia wrote:Funny you should say that; at the moment, she's a space marine captain-lite, the only reason people usually get her is the same reason people get a barebones captain, the rerolling of 1s on to-hits.
Do you really think it's more likely GW will make her drastically different from this?
I don't know how likely it is, but it's what I would prefer; something that emphasizes the differences between the factions and helps assert the Sororitas' distinct identity.
vipoid wrote:
If only GW had the capacity to make new models.
Speaking strictly in terms of 'new book/errata/two-part white dwarf codex' incorporating the existing model range, of course.
If new models are in the cards then it's a whole different ball game.
...
...
Checkmate.
vipoid wrote:If this is in response to my post I really don't understand where you're coming from. Would giving the Cannoness the option of a Jump Pack make her Celestine lite? Would allowing her to hand out an extra Act of Faith on a 4+ (or even just use a free one on herself each turn) make her Celestine Lite?
Yes, by virtue of them being less effective iterations of Celestine's existing abilities.
Whereas if you gave her options that let her confer bonuses like the ones the priest gives, or an order-like mechanic you can have her be a more distinct but still effective HQ.
Forgive me if this is a really dumb question (I haven't been around the hobby for over a decade), but is there any precedence for giving a unit wargear that isn't actually part of their physical model? To me, any major changes to how these units work (like adding a jetpack) would have to come with a corresponding model, right? Might that be largely why Sisters have been mostly ignored for so long? Can't really do one without the other, so to speak.
It depends on the faction. Space Marines have units without models and wargear that isn't represented, yet those have yet to be removed as a result.
Whereas if you gave her options that let her confer bonuses like the ones the priest gives, or an order-like mechanic you can have her be a more distinct but still effective HQ.
So why not let her provide an extra Act of Faith (maybe on a 3+)?
I disagree; if anything, I think it would incentivize using a canoness and give us reason to NOT take Celestine. Though at that point the Imagifier would be even more overcosted than it probably already is and would have to come down in points.
Also, given the leaks on the Marine Codex I could see the following Stratagem for us:
1CP: After one of your models with the Martyrdom trait is removed as a casualty, choose a friendly <Order> unit. It immediately performs an Act of Faith, even if it has already done so this turn.
It would need some type of wording so that it doesn't interrupt whatever the current activation is and, instead, is performed after that activation is completed. Then you'd give all of our Sororitas Characters except the Geminae with Celestine the Martyrdom trait.
1: Just adding a jump pack option [20 pts. sounds appropriate] would make her desirable. It means she can actually use that re-roll 1's aura buff. Otherwise, she just sort of serves to add 6" to an Exorcist/Retributor Squad's Deep Strike Perimeter.
2: Eleanor and Genevieve are Canonesses with Jump Packs.
WRT her distributing Acts of Faith:
Allowing her to distribute Acts of Faith and a jump pack [increase to 65-75 points, 85-95 w/ Jump Pack], would mean the Saint Celestine would be less of an auto-take, and would facilitate greater diversity in our army builds.
And I'd rather have Celestine-lite than a distinct HQ. I've always been of the mindset that a unit of which you can only have one should never be entirely unique, and should be an upgraded version of an existing unit. Otherwise, army strategies built around a concept the unique unit facilitates have no scaling for small or large games. Allowing a Canoness to co-opt Celetine's most important feature, namely being fast enough to actually stay with the army, would be ideal. In addition, allowing a Canoness to distribute Acts of Faith would facilitate foot armies, since if Celestine isn't moving and fighting in melee, she's not nearly worth 150 points, and if Celestine in on her own in melee out in front, she's not providing her faith buff and will die.
I'm more than fine with the Canoness not having a jump pack and being more of the leader type with aura's and re-rolls.
Seraphim Superia as an HQ with a rosarius and costing somewhere near the Imagifer would be fun as well. Give her an aura buff of a different flavor than the Canoness and I would be more than happy.
Double Doms in Repressors is bordering on not even playing nice. Might cost me a few friends, but who needs the Heretics anyways?
Its nice to see Celestine survived the faq without a nerf, but its better to see that some think she needs it. Jealous much?
"And if you're playing against an army that doesn't advance and just shoots you off the board? Sometimes you need to take out the superheavy, giant battlesuit, etc. first before it blows up half your army. "
That's what Celestine and two units of Seraphim are for.
dracpanzer wrote: Seraphim Superia as an HQ with a rosarius and costing somewhere near the Imagifer
... so as much as a canoness?
I mean I don't get why she can't be both a support character AND have a jump pack.
35 or 40 points isn't bad assuming that as a Seraphim Superia she would already have the jump pack.
I don't see clarifying Celestine as unique like a nerf. It was clearly an error, and yes taking many of her would have been better than just one. It just wasn't ever supposed to happen. Acts of Faith working on vehicles was the same thing. GW rule writing and bad editing before a release requiring a FAQ immediately after a release isn't a nerf.
Melissia wrote: The thing is, with the Canoness, she always IS a support character. She'd just be a more useful one with a jump pack.
It'd take relics or blessed weapons to make her in to a beatstick.
Mechanically, sure. I just don't see it as a need when I can throw all my Seraphim in an outrider detachment with Saint auto include. It might be nicer to our opponents, but if it wasn't cheap to field the Canoness with it, I would never bother anyways. A Palatine or Seraphim Superior might help cut the HQ cost down for fielding multiple detachments, which would be good. But when forced to take a Canoness I generally just give her a stormbolter and chainsword. Sometimes with stormbolter Celestians to make her a bit tankier and a way to keep my opponent off my Retributors.
Fluff wise, Seraphim being the pretty girl club pretty much excludes them from descending to the ranks of the less beautiful and taking up the duties of higher command doesn't it........
I wouldn't mind seeing two different entries for the Canoness, one with a jump pack, one without.
The one with the jump pack could have all the toys and features we have now, just... you know, with a jump pack.
The footslogging one could come with Vanguard movement (to mesh with Dominions), artificer armour, and the option to buy a stormshield in addition to her other gear.
You could then give them each a different faith-based functionality.
... which, again is what I've been saying. There's no reason to take a canoness beatstick because the best weapon she has is a damn overpriced eviscerator.
But even that might be useful if she could accompany seraphim because of a jump pack, but she can't.
If Sisters are going to get a new Codex before December, and by all indications they, and everyone else, ARE going to be getting a new Codex, then IMO everyone should put off making any new purchases until then.
phydaux wrote: If Sisters are going to get a new Codex before December, and by all indications they, and everyone else, ARE going to be getting a new Codex, then IMO everyone should put off making any new purchases until then.
You're probably right, but then again GW has a long history of skipping Sisters, making them wait till the very last few months of an edition or filling their codex with random dudes from a completely different army. So holding off for a new codex might end up being a very long wait or just lead to more disappointment.
phydaux wrote: If Sisters are going to get a new Codex before December, and by all indications they, and everyone else, ARE going to be getting a new Codex, then IMO everyone should put off making any new purchases until then.
You see, I'm skeptical.
If we do, I expect to be the last installment before the year is out.
Assuming they crank it out fast, at 2 per month, there are to be 10 releases. 6 of those are Space Marines [Vanilla, Hot-Pocket, Furry, Vampire, Emo, and Shiny], and at least 3 are Chaos Space Marines [Regular, Green, and Blue]. That just sort of leaves us to be wedged in as the last. They're also going to wedge either Orks or Eldar in as a token Xeno release. That's all 10 slots filled. Now, they could bump Space Wolves or Blood Angels in the release order, but are they really going to put us in those slots? If they do, one slot is for Imperial Guard or Tyranids and one slot is for the other token xenos option.
And, all thing considered, I'd rather be at the end of the release cycle with Harlequins, Dark Eldar, Adeptus Mechanicus, and Genestealer Cults, since, once they're done with the rush to kick Space Marines out the door, they'd actually have time to theoretically write us a balanced army.
I so want those to become the nicknames of the respective SM factions.
My group does call them that sometimes . We don't have silly names for the Chaos ones, but that's also because, until now, Chaos Space Marine Legions didn't have their own books.
Based on input from this thread, I have reconsidered how to arm my foot slogging Sisters army.
Dominion Squads are fast because of the Vanguard special rule, and can carry four assault weapons, plus a weapon on the Sister Superior. They will likely be the first squads to encounter the enemy.
Basic Sisters Squads aren't quite so fast, and can only carry two assault weapons, plus a weapon on the Sister Superior.
Retributors can carry four heavy weapons, and in this rules set that can fire them from the hip with -1 To Hit.
The assumption is that the Doms will range ahead of the BSSs, and that the Rets will trail slightly behind the BSSs.
In order to make maximum use of all my models, I propose arming these squads such that as soon as an enemy unit comes into weapons range of the Dominion Squads, that the Basic Sisters Squads also be in weapons range of that unit, and that the Retributors as well also be in weapons range of that enemy unit. This overlapping of range circles will create what I call an "Event Horizon" in front of the Dominion Squads where all of your units will be able to focus fire on any enemy unit that crosses that horizon, withering even the largest or heaviest enemy units.
Arming the Doms with short range weapons like Meltaguns & a CombiMelta, the BSSs and their Sister Superior with medium range Stormbolters, and the Rets with long-ish range Heavy Bolters, will allow this overlapping.
My only concern is that most of my anti-tank killing power, my Meltaguns, will be in the hands of what amounts to a "bait" unit. Yes, if the Doms are charged they can choose to fall back, allowing every other unit in the army to shoot the charging unit. I am concerned that they may sustain too many casualties and will be killed off before that can reach a large, long range enemy unit like a tank.
Thats basically a defensive tactic turned on its head. Where as the enemy approaches you they encoubter an ever increasing amount of fire. First the long range heavies, then medium weapons, and finally all of that being joined by every available small arms when you get real close.
You are looking at doing the opposite. The problem I see arising is that if your opponent can avoid your Dominions optimum range, they could basically avoid all of your firepower. They could concentrate on your Dominions and take your three lines down piece by piece.
You want your long range weapons deployed (Rets) forward far enough to hit as many of the enemy that can target your assault element as possible. Your assault element (Doms) then needs to cross no mans land under their covering fire as quickly as they can. They will be ahead of your medium range troops (BSS) which will have to keep up as best they can with your assault in order to be able defend or expand on their efforts.
Foot slogging Sisters might be viable in 8ed, Celestine and Seraphim aside, I'm just not sure it's going to be in an offensive nature like you are proposing unless their is a decent amount of LOS blocking terrain. Fast moving armies will be able to avoid you, shooty armies will have their way with you and you'll need to change up tactics completely against an army looking to charge you.
I'm firmly in the double Dom squads in Repressors running with Celestine and inferno Seraphim camp. Grab them by the belt and don't let go till all the Heretics are roasted, blasted, or melted....
Melissia wrote: ... which, again is what I've been saying. There's no reason to take a canoness beatstick because the best weapon she has is a damn overpriced eviscerator.
But even that might be useful if she could accompany seraphim because of a jump pack, but she can't.
Honestly, for a weapon that costs what it does and at the -1 to hit penalty that it has, the eviscerator should be hitting at S8. I mean, they already went out of their way to give Repentias their own unique crap eviscerators, might as well do the same and give the Canoness her own good one. Just call it a 'blessed eviscerator' or something like that.
Fafnir wrote: Honestly, for a weapon that costs what it does and at the -1 to hit penalty that it has, the eviscerator should be hitting at S8. I mean, they already went out of their way to give Repentias their own unique crap eviscerators, might as well do the same and give the Canoness her own good one. Just call it a 'blessed eviscerator' or something like that.
Honestly, I'd rather it was just cheaper (around 10-15pts) and stayed S6.
See, I don't think Celestine and the Canoness should have different roles, because Celestine is unique. Our army has pretty bad scaling right now, and this is part of the reason.
I think Celestine as a super-Canoness is pretty reasonable. I think a better way of making 2 distinct HQ's would be to have a Palantine and a Canoness.
phydaux wrote: If Sisters are going to get a new Codex before December, and by all indications they, and everyone else, ARE going to be getting a new Codex, then IMO everyone should put off making any new purchases until then.
Unfortunately, the SoB models on the GW website are nearly sold out. You can still purchase BBS, Seraphim, and a few others at outrageous prices, but it seems like the supply of the more recently popular models is, well, gone.
Thankfully, there are many ways to get second-hand models, but it can be quite a hassle to track down good deals.
Still, GW running out of metal SoB models does (at least) two major things:
1. It shows GW that the army is still popular and that people want to play it.
2. As a result of (1), it shows GW that supporting the army - with plastic models and a proper Codex - is worthwhile and in fact necessary if they plan to maintain the faction. (They'd piss off a lot of players if they discontinued the army, especially after all the slights we've had to endure thus far.)
I'm certain that GW won't discontinue the army, but the model shortage (if it is such) kind if forces their hand when it comes to plastic models. I have no idea how they'll handle it as they've shown poor and myopic judgement calls in the past.
Mr Morden wrote: She is effectively a Greater Daemon of the Emperor - its kinda what she does
Actually, that's a relatively recent change.
In 3rd she was a Jump Pack Cannoness with +1WS, +1I but -1A (no pistol). The Ardent Blade was a S5 Master Crafted power weapon that could be fired as a flamer, though she had a mere 3 attacks with it (For comparison, a Canoness could take the same weapon, minus the flamer part, and have 4 attacks with it, albeit at WS4).
In 5th she got given WS7 BS7 I7 and +2 attacks and the Ardent Blade become a Heavy Flamer. However, the Ardent Blade lost both S5 and Master Crafted and instead wounded non-vehicles on a 4+.
In 6th her stats remained the same. The Ardent Blade became S5 Master Crafted again, but was only AP3 (her resurrection ability was also nerfed dramatically, but that's besides the point).
In 7th, towards the very end, she was updated with her Geminae Superior (though they only had 3+/4+ saves). Celestine got 5 wounds and the Ardent Blade got Armourbane. But even then she was still only striking at S5.
Finally, in 8th, her strength was bumped to 7 with the blade and she got an extra attack. Also, the AP of the blade was improved along with its damage.
I'd argue that she really only became a monster in this very edition. Maybe in 7th at a stretch (though mostly she was just hard to kill). Prior to that, her damage was only ever comparable to standard HQs (marine captains and the like). In 5th, her combat abilities were no better than that of a DE Archon with an Agoniser.
Anyway, I think S5 was reasonable for her. S7 just feels like too much to me. I also think 5 attacks would have been fine.
My personal though is that she should be the best melee character for SoB, but shouldn't be the equivalent of greater daemons and the like (at least not in terms of strength and number of attacks). For me, her strength should like more in her resurrection ability and in her inspirational power (represented in her Aura and free Act of Faith). I also really wish she hadn't gained the permanent Geminae retinue, as all they really do is solidify her role as a Holy Damage Sponge.
Still, GW running out of metal SoB models does (at least) two major things: <<<<snip>>>>> I suppose only time will tell.
Sisters have been going in and out of "available" "out of stock" no longer available" for a long, long time. It means they are making more sometime soon. It has yet to mean anything else than that, certainly doesn't mean "get your hopes up".
Still, GW running out of metal SoB models does (at least) two major things: <<<<snip>>>>> I suppose only time will tell.
Sisters have been going in and out of "available" "out of stock" no longer available" for a long, long time. It means they are making more sometime soon. It has yet to mean anything else than that, certainly doesn't mean "get your hopes up".
It means someone bought the 2 SoB packs they keep in stock at any one time.
phydaux wrote: If Sisters are going to get a new Codex before December, and by all indications they, and everyone else, ARE going to be getting a new Codex, then IMO everyone should put off making any new purchases until then.
Unfortunately, the SoB models on the GW website are nearly sold out. You can still purchase BBS, Seraphim, and a few others at outrageous prices, but it seems like the supply of the more recently popular models is, well, gone.
Thankfully, there are many ways to get second-hand models, but it can be quite a hassle to track down good deals.
Still, GW running out of metal SoB models does (at least) two major things:
1. It shows GW that the army is still popular and that people want to play it.
2. As a result of (1), it shows GW that supporting the army - with plastic models and a proper Codex - is worthwhile and in fact necessary if they plan to maintain the faction. (They'd piss off a lot of players if they discontinued the army, especially after all the slights we've had to endure thus far.)
I'm certain that GW won't discontinue the army, but the model shortage (if it is such) kind if forces their hand when it comes to plastic models. I have no idea how they'll handle it as they've shown poor and myopic judgement calls in the past.
I suppose only time will tell.
It could be done with only FOUR sprue.
SPRUE A - Five Sisters legs, five Sisters chest rear half, five Sisters chest front half, five left arms, five right arms, five backpacks, five heads, five bolters.
SPRUE B - Stormbolter, Flamer, Meltagun, Heavy Bolter, Heavy Flamer, Multi-Melta , parts to make a Combi-Flamer or a Combi-Melta
SPRUE C - Two Seraphim legs, two Seraphim chest rear half, two Seraphim chest front half,, two heads, two each right & left Bolt Pistol arms, one each right & left Hand Flamer & Inferno Pistol arms, two Sisters Jump Packs
SPRUE D - Sister Superior legs, arms, chest, head, jump pack, various pistols, CCWs & Power Weapons
Sisters Box Set gets one of sprue A and one of Sprue B, and cost $35. Seraphim box set gets two of sprue C, one of sprue D, and cost $40.
It could be (and that is a clever way to get the max out of a minimal number of sprues), but I hope they give us more than that. I'd like to be able to build Seraphim squads that have more than 2 bodies, or get a Sister Superior for my squads without having to buy a Seraphim box. I'd like to have some distinct options for Celestines (assuming they ever get better). A nice multi unit kit that's half Repentia and half something new would be cool too. I'm tired of Sisters being defined by the small number of models GW made for them. I want a full Dark Eldar style reboot, as unlikely as that is.
Here's the thing, and what I said in the thread someone asked about "will there be plastic Sisters?"
As long as it says "Temporarily Out of Stock," then no, and we probably can't expect anything plastic for 3-6 months. When it says "Temporarily Out of Stock", it means they plan to do at least one more production run. It switches to "Last Chance to Buy" if the kit is being discontinued. They also just outright take it down when it runs out of stock if they're re-packing the kit.
Quick weekend summary: 2 games at 2000 points each, I went 1-and-1. I mismanaged range and exposure and got ruined by close range gauss fire from a Necron Silver Tide-- those guys are hard to get off the board. I scored a well-matched win against Death Guard with Celestine and a single Gemina bringing down Typhus and a unit of Chaos Termies while deep striking plasma Scions tallied a full DG Marine unit and a Soulgrinder.
Current thinkings: Units difficult to capitalize on include Seraphim and anything even considering melee with the help of a Priest. Also looking for a good place for Imagifiers other than with a Canoness and HB Retributer unit, might try a big stormbolter unit. Definitely feeling good about double-loading Rhinos, just not sure of the perfect combo yet. Flamers of all types generally good at forcing volume saves.
Current thinkings: Units difficult to capitalize on include Seraphim and anything even considering melee with the help of a Priest.
I asked earlier, but does anyone have any thoughts on Repentia?
Yes, I do.
None of them are good.
i guess, at least, they're D2 and S6, which means they can fairly efficiently hurt Necron Vehicles, while Dominions can't. But really, that's at best situational, and they're still overcosted.
jake wrote: A nice multi unit kit that's half Repentia and half something new would be cool too. I'm tired of Sisters being defined by the small number of models GW made for them. I want a full Dark Eldar style reboot, as unlikely as that is.
Half repentia, half ??? Female redemptionists? Not sure I could think up something along that line that they don't already have in one form or belongs to another army already.
Using Repentia as Sisters of Silence with great blades is the only way I can think of to make them effective. They are expensive, and even running with a priest, mistress, or whatever getting an AoF to get an advance move before turn one you aren't very likely to get a turn one charge in.
I have tried on several occasions in 8ed, they are very hard to get your points back from. Groups of 3 running in a vehicle with something besides Doms just as nasty surprise still isn't worth the five Doms they cost. They need a rules re-write.
They'd need to drop in cost by 5ppm before I'd even consider them. Their current cost is ridiculously high for T3 6++, Acts of Faith be darned. It's a shame, because they're great models.
With Imagifiers only giving their buff 50% of the time, you're better taking another squad of Sisters if the squad you intend on buffing with them is 80 points or less in the first place.
Sadly, for the Sisters of Battle, the most efficient way to run them is likely just Celestine and a single other token squad to make use of the bonus act of faith, mixed then amongst an army of more complete factions.
1) What do you think of Arco-flagellants and Death Cult Assassins? Is one better than the other? Are either of them any good?
2) If you're already taking a Priest, do you think it's worth giving him a Combi-Flamer?
DCA are the more killy option, but pay for their killyness by being guardsman-level fragile. Arco-flagellants have a couple of neat features: 2 wounds, slightly cheaper, and Priests provide them +1d3 attacks instead of +1.
They both share the weakness that they're allergic to overwatch and are too fragile to reliably footslog up the table. So you're heavily incentivized to buy them a Rhino, which gets expensive quick - a full Arco-flaggelant squad with Sororitas Rhino and Priest clocks in at 245 points. That squad puts out a cool 27d3 S5 attacks with re-rollable 3s to hit, but for that price you could also field two 10-girl Sisters squads with upgrades. So it's a tough call.
I would lean toward the Arco-flagellants if only for the second wound, but I haven't been able to put either one on the table yet. Once I do I'll report back on how they fare.
jake wrote: A nice multi unit kit that's half Repentia and half something new would be cool too. I'm tired of Sisters being defined by the small number of models GW made for them. I want a full Dark Eldar style reboot, as unlikely as that is.
Half repentia, half ??? Female redemptionists? Not sure I could think up something along that line that they don't already have in one form or belongs to another army already.
Half anything, really (female redeptionists would be cool though). Sisters are so unit poor its ridiculous. Basic Space Marines have 69 different unit options Craftworld Eldar have over 40. Dark Eldar have 32. Necrons have 36 and Tau have 37. Sisters just have just 15, (Marines have more character options than that). I don't point this out to say that we need an equal number of units, just that there's lots of room for expansion. And I think Repentia are an obvious place to do it just because they're not power armored, models, so a duel kit could introduce a second non-power armored unit. We know from the fluff that not all exiled sisters join repentia battle units. It could be cool to see a new unit made up of Repentia that have decided to take on a different combat role in order to find salvation or serve the Emperor. Or maybe not Repentia at all. maybe just non-power armored Sisters.
Here's a few ideas. Some of these might not seem like they'd fit well as the other half of a Repentia kit, but honestly the Repentia models are awful and need a serious redesign. Imagine how much variety you could get from a different set of arms and heads.
- Repentia who move ahead of the main forces, acting as unofficial scouts and information gatherers, desperate to regain favor.
- Order Pranxilium Pilgrim Sisters that travel with other pilgrims, raising small groups of faithful militia.
- Order Madriga Sisters that act as a choir that provides strong buffing abilities.
- Order Vespila Sisters that specialize in death rituals and removing casualties from the battlefield.
- Order Pronatus Sisters that escort and guard holy relics and shrines through combat zones.
Any of these ideas could be expanded into an interesting and I'd hope that GW could come up with better ideas. Sisters are so stuck in their limited roles dictated by almost 20 years of unimaginative game design that it's hard to imagine them expanding beyond basic units with Bolters. But I really hope they will. Sisters need variety!
And I know that was all very wishlisty, which isn't what this thread is supposed to be about.
Agreed, even if they get trolled to oblivion, wish listing needs it's own thread.
Fafnir wrote: With Imagifiers only giving their buff 50% of the time, you're better taking another squad of Sisters if the squad you intend on buffing with them is 80 points or less in the first place.
You get the added benefit of having more bodies on the field, which the imagifier doesn't cover. But honestly I expect to use mine to support a large retributor unit, right next to Canoness Chainsaw.
Fafnir wrote: Sadly, for the Sisters of Battle, the most efficient way to run them is likely just Celestine and a single other token squad to make use of the bonus act of faith, mixed then amongst an army of more complete factions.
There is definitely a strong case for taking a small token force of Sisters in larger Imperium armies, and that's not a bad thing. As the codexes come out that may diminish as faction bonuses become more of a thing, but if Sororitas become established as a small part of many, many more armies their fortunes may improve in the future.
I'm wavering between taking two MSU battle sisters squads in repressors with doms in immolator, or the reverse.
They'd need to drop in cost by 5ppm before I'd even consider them. Their current cost is ridiculously high for T3 6++, Acts of Faith be darned. It's a shame, because they're great models.
I'd beg to differ. If there's one model group in our line that I don't like, it's Repentia. Maybe they could be re-done to look like the one of the cover of the Witch Hunters book, wearing a scroll of scripture, instead of, well, whatever you can call what they're wearing now.
Anyway, they're worth more than 5ppm, but probably no more than 7 or 8.
It seems to be the conclusion that Sisters are not a very competitive faction at the moment. That said, it also appears that our most competitive choices are plain Sisters due to their low cost, Dominions because of Vanguard, and Celestine. I am not including Repressors as it is a ForgeWorld unit. Is this correct?
Is there such a thing as an optimized all Sisters force?
Captain Joystick wrote: There is definitely a strong case for taking a small token force of Sisters in larger Imperium armies, and that's not a bad thing. As the codexes come out that may diminish as faction bonuses become more of a thing, but if Sororitas become established as a small part of many, many more armies their fortunes may improve in the future.
Or decline as the nerfhammer comes down hard on Celestine.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
davidgr33n wrote: It seems to be the conclusion that Sisters are not a very competitive faction at the moment. That said, it also appears that our most competitive choices are plain Sisters due to their low cost, Dominions because of Vanguard, and Celestine. I am not including Repressors as it is a ForgeWorld unit. Is this correct?
Is there such a thing as an optimized all Sisters force?
I've been flagwaving for a footsloging all Sisters list, but other posters are arguing hard for four minimum-size Doms with four assault weapons and Sister Superior with a combi weapon, and then mount them doubles up in two armored transports. Either way, support them with Celestine, Seraphims, BSSs, and Rets with Imigifier & Cannoness support.
1) What do you think of Arco-flagellants and Death Cult Assassins? Is one better than the other? Are either of them any good?
2) If you're already taking a Priest, do you think it's worth giving him a Combi-Flamer?
For 170pts (~240 with the mandatory rhino) you have either 9 arcos and a priest, or 10 death-cult. For a bit more points you swap the 10th DC for a priest.
Offensively they're both pretty good, and about the same effectiveness. Arcos will do better versus hordes, Death-cult will do better versus more armored targets.
However, defensively, arcos are way better because they have the same 5++, but 2W each.
To me, this defensive edge is what makes them better than death-cult because they will either survive longer or absorb more firepower before being killed. Plus I already have 20 meltas to deal with armored targets, so dealing with hordes is a lot more valued for my army.
Anyway, I cannot stress enough how good either of those two squads are. To me they're our second best unit after Saint Celestine. If you havent done so already, try them out. People always underlook them because they have dominions squads and Saint C in their face turn 1. So you simply advance the rhino, pop smokes and wait for a freaking devastating turn2 charge. Heck, sometimes they even can charge turn1 when the ennemy comes to you !
1) What do you think of Arco-flagellants and Death Cult Assassins? Is one better than the other? Are either of them any good?
2) If you're already taking a Priest, do you think it's worth giving him a Combi-Flamer?
For 170pts (~240 with the mandatory rhino) you have either 9 arcos and a priest, or 10 death-cult. For a bit more points you swap the 10th DC for a priest.
Offensively they're both pretty good, and about the same effectiveness. Arcos will do better versus hordes, Death-cult will do better versus more armored targets.
However, defensively, arcos are way better because they have the same 5++, but 2W each.
To me, this defensive edge is what makes them better than death-cult because they will either survive longer or absorb more firepower before being killed. Plus I already have 20 meltas to deal with armored targets, so dealing with hordes is a lot more valued for my army.
Anyway, I cannot stress enough how good either of those two squads are. To me they're our second best unit after Saint Celestine. If you havent done so already, try them out. People always underlook them because they have dominions squads and Saint C in their face turn 1. So you simply advance the rhino, pop smokes and wait for a freaking devastating turn2 charge. Heck, sometimes they even can charge turn1 when the ennemy comes to you !
Captain Joystick wrote: There is definitely a strong case for taking a small token force of Sisters in larger Imperium armies, and that's not a bad thing. As the codexes come out that may diminish as faction bonuses become more of a thing, but if Sororitas become established as a small part of many, many more armies their fortunes may improve in the future.
Or decline as the nerfhammer comes down hard on Celestine.
Honestly, I wouldn't mind Celestine geting nerfed a little (though I think some other stuff - especially the Canoness - would need to be improved at the same time).
- I don't think Celestine needs S7
- I think 5 attacks are sufficient
- 7 wounds is a bit excessive (6 might be more reasonable)
- Having 2 extra 2+/4+ 2-wound bodyguards and being able to resurrect one for free each turn is a bit much
I don't think St. Celestine needs to be a juggernaut of destruction. I'd rather she was cheaper, good in combat (better than a canoness but not on a similar level to a Greater Daemon) and more about her aura and extra faith.
But then, I'd also like it if she went back to her 5th edition version where she could revive multiple times per game.
The main thing though is that I don't want to feel guilty for bringing her.
davidgr33n wrote: It seems to be the conclusion that Sisters are not a very competitive faction at the moment. That said, it also appears that our most competitive choices are plain Sisters due to their low cost, Dominions because of Vanguard, and Celestine. I am not including Repressors as it is a ForgeWorld unit. Is this correct?
Is there such a thing as an optimized all Sisters force?
I think it's early on to say that.
I would say the winners are basically Dominions, Celestine and Retributors. Immolators with Flamer are also pretty solid, but totally over shadowed by Repressors for Doms. BSS are okay, but don't have a lot to recommend them other than cost.
davidgr33n wrote: It seems to be the conclusion that Sisters are not a very competitive faction at the moment. That said, it also appears that our most competitive choices are plain Sisters due to their low cost, Dominions because of Vanguard, and Celestine. I am not including Repressors as it is a ForgeWorld unit. Is this correct?
Is there such a thing as an optimized all Sisters force?
I think we're very competitive.
Dominions are amazing, and are strictly better than ordinary Battle Sisters. Even on foot for their base 10ppm, the Dominions offer a 100% improvement in alpha-strike capability, because they can Vanguard move and advance during the Vanguard move, then move 6", and be in Rapid-Fire range. And, of course, Dominions for 12ppm have straight Storm-Bolters with their scout move, which is basically twice the firepower and 2/3 the toughness of a Space Marine for 1 point less, with Scout thrown in to boot.
Repressors are pretty amazing, and the Immolator is pretty good, particularly for Dominions, since it gives them shelter and increases the range they can threaten with their Vanguard move.
Seraphim are good, but shouldn't be brought in massive numbers. A single squad pairs up well with Saint Celestine, more than that and they just become worse than Dominions unless you buy Imagifiers.
Retributors are pretty good at holding the rearguard. Since they're the same price as Battle Sisters, but get 4x Heavy Weapons that have the range to reach across the no-man's land, they're basically better than Battle Sisters for your rearguard.
Exorcists are strictly okay. Nothing to write home about. But they're not so bad as to be unfieldable, so there's that. Also, they and Penitent Engines are really the only thing we have effective against Necron vehicles, because of Quantum Shielding.
Outrider Detachment is your friend. I run a pure-sisters army, consisting almost entirely of Dominions, at League. Right now, I'm 3 wins for 3 games, we'll see if that changes tonight.
Waaaaait... we can advance during the Vanguard move?
Vanguard: Once both sides are deployed but before the first player takes their turn, this unit can move as if it were
their Movement phase. If both players have units that can do this, the player who is taking the first turn moves
their units first. If all of the models embarked on a transport vehicle have this ability, then the transport vehicle
can make the move instead.
Since it happens "before the first player takes their first turn", there's no reason not to, since they won't have a penalty when it comes around to be time to shoot.
Unless I missed something, at least.
Transports should be able to as well, but only get Vanguard if all the troops inside have Vanguard.
davidgr33n wrote: It seems to be the conclusion that Sisters are not a very competitive faction at the moment. That said, it also appears that our most competitive choices are plain Sisters due to their low cost, Dominions because of Vanguard, and Celestine. I am not including Repressors as it is a ForgeWorld unit. Is this correct?
Is there such a thing as an optimized all Sisters force?
I simply don't agree with your first statement. I know Codexes may change things but while the index rules the day Sisters are surprisingly fiesty.
I can't think of a single reason to take basic Sisters over stormbolter Dominions. Take melta's as you like but the 3 points for scout and 4 shots at 12" is worth it every time. Outrider detachment or two and all you have to get over is the notion that you need a brigade for those extra CP's.
The hand flamer FAQ took the fun out of Seraphim spam, but Inferno pistols on a squad to keep your Murder Hobo company is well worth it.
Repressors are a Dominion's best friend. Buy them, build them, convert them. Bring them...
Indeed. At the moment there's no point in us trying to spam CPs, We need to hold 1 to reroll MI and 1+ to reroll AoF and that's it. The 4 minimum you get for bringing a spearhead/outrider is enough for the moment. If we get some cool strats in a codex release then that might change things, but for now trying to purposely bring more than 5 CPs is like giving you're self a handicap.
The occasional 2CP interrupt in the fight phase is pretty good with Celestine. Some people have yet to learn to resolve their fight in the right order Joke aside having more CP is very nice, but since our troop choice is sub-optimal it is more efficient to have less CP but more doms/seras/exos/rets.
The basis sisters are not that bad (3 melta in a repressor is still terrifying even without vanguard). If troop choices end up being obsec again (like for the SM) or something like that, then we might see them back on the table. But right now there isn't enough incentive to play them over the more optimal doms/rets.
I can't think of a single reason to take basic Sisters over stormbolter Dominions.
One reason:
Brigades.
Basic sisters can still get 3 Storm Bolters, which isn't as good as 5, but if you want to leave them behind to camp objectives, it's not the worst thing in the world. Those extra CPs can be pretty great.
Drider wrote: Indeed. At the moment there's no point in us trying to spam CPs, We need to hold 1 to reroll MI and 1+ to reroll AoF and that's it. The 4 minimum you get for bringing a spearhead/outrider is enough for the moment. If we get some cool strats in a codex release then that might change things, but for now trying to purposely bring more than 5 CPs is like giving you're self a handicap.
I have 1 for Celestine, 1 for seize the initiative, possibly 1 for selecting deployment patterns, and the rest for whatever else might need to happen.
4-5 is more than enough for pretty much any purpose, I think.
Anyone got any good ideas for fighting Necrons? Quantum Shielding blocks Meltaguns far too reliably, there's only one of Celestine, and I don't want to commit to having a ton of Exorcists and Penitent Engines just for one scenario in an all-comers list. Their tanks also pack quite a lot of firepower.
I can't think of a single reason to take basic Sisters over stormbolter Dominions.
One reason:
Brigades.
Basic sisters can still get 3 Storm Bolters, which isn't as good as 5, but if you want to leave them behind to camp objectives, it's not the worst thing in the world. Those extra CP's can be pretty great.
I can reliably field two outrider detachments, I would rather get the vanguard move just to get my repressors where they are going faster rather than saddle myself with regular battle sisters over taking Retributors to park with a Canoness for backfield support. I'm far more concerned with drops for first turn than I am with CP's.
The Vanguard move is essentially a free pregame Hand of the Emperor Act of Faith for EVERY unit of Dominions, that also confers on a Transport that can never usually peform an Act of Faith. Seriously seriously good.
Automatically Appended Next Post: After many weeks of theorising and practice games, I've set the following 2k list in stone. It's take-all:
Vanguard Detachment
Canoness w/ Combi-Plas and Power Axe
Priest w/ BP and PA 5 Celestians with PP, PA and Heavy Flamer
2 Death Cult Assassins
Eversor Assassin
Ravenwing Dark Talon
Immolator w/ IF
Immolator w/ IF
6 CPs. 10 drops (Melta+SB double up in each Repressor, SB doms immo, Canoness+Celestians Immo, Canoness+Ministorum Immo). Capable of 119 RF bolter shots, 14 Melta (+D6 Exorcist), 9D6 Heavy Flamer, 5 Plasma, and Mortal Wounds from the Dark Talon rift cannon/stasis bomb.
Any thoughts/observations? I've considered running Arcos instead of DCA but with all the bolters I have more than enough volume of dice. Also I realise the Celestians are a jack-of-all-trades/master of none, but they are perhaps the only unit that can usefully benefit from both the Canoness and the Priest, and they help protect the expensive loadouts i've picked.
No Imagifiers or Rets - I found the buffed gunline to be reasonably effective but personally found it rather boring to play. When purging, I prefer getting up close and personal; this is what Sisters are all about to me. Reckless hate!
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Anyone got any good ideas for fighting Necrons? Quantum Shielding blocks Meltaguns far too reliably, there's only one of Celestine, and I don't want to commit to having a ton of Exorcists and Penitent Engines just for one scenario in an all-comers list. Their tanks also pack quite a lot of firepower.
I'd like to second this question. I got beat last week by 3x20 Warriors, 2x Ghost Arks, 2x Crypteks, Overlord, Tomb Blades, Canoptek Wraiths, and Deathmarks. I managed to get one unit of Warriors and the Deathmarks off the table, but the double RP attempts kept his other units near full strength.
I'm thinking of adding a Vindicare to weaken his RP rolls and continuing to ignore the Ghost Arks because, as you said, they're so hard to bring down due to Quantum Shielding and mostly just make the Warriors invincible. Once the budget allows, I'm going to add a second unit of HB Rets. Is there something to be done with Doms crossing the table to engage in melee to cut down on the volume of gauss fire coming back the other way? They'd almost have to be full units to survive overwatch.
I can't think of a single reason to take basic Sisters over stormbolter Dominions.
One reason:
Brigades.
Basic sisters can still get 3 Storm Bolters, which isn't as good as 5, but if you want to leave them behind to camp objectives, it's not the worst thing in the world. Those extra CPs can be pretty great.
I'd agree it isn't necessary, but having 12 CP courtesy of a Brigade is kind of fun. I just burned through mine last weekend... seize roll, Exorcist d6 roll, melta rule d6 roll, armor saves to keep one last Sister in a squad on the table (forcing opponent to make another split fire gamble to remove her), plus keeping one for Celestine... 12 may have been excessive, but 4-6 might have seemed limiting.
Combi-plasma might help if you can get it into rapid-fire range.
Repentia should work well against them (though obviously getting them there in one piece is a tricky concept).
Heavy Bolters and Heavy Flamers might be able to get a couple of wounds on them (not great but could help finish them off).
Also, don't forget about Krak grenades.
In terms of meltas, one thing to consider would be deliberately staying outside of melta range (less chance of getting a high damage roll and thus less chance of QS preventing said damage).
Quantum Shielding fears high strength low damage attacks and, obviously, the more you can put out rapidly the better.
Three squads of three repentia (or one squad of nine) with a mistress in a rhino could theoretically advance in vehicle, eject and charge (making use of the mistress' rerolls), if they do that while the rhino is in combat with something, are they also in combat with it?
IIRC units with quantum shields are T6 so massed fire from bolters and even flamers is very close to effectiveness as heavy bolters and heavy flamers.
Actually, I would look to the exorcist for this. Long range, up to D6 shots, and only D3 damage, meaning Q's has, at best, a 33% success chance on any one of them.
Any kind of weapon that does 2 or d3 damage is pretty good against Q shielding. Exorcist are great at killing them and if you're bringing allies then earthshakers / manticore / battlecanons / IK gatling / autocanons are all excellent choices. Heavy bolters are not too bad too. Then you have all the bolter-ish potshots you can use.
On the question of how to confront Necrons, how do SoB players prioritize targets? It seems they are an army where singular focus is needed, but that means hard choices right out of the gate. Obviously the mission will dictate specifics, but in general, do you try to take out blobs of Warriors (difficult in a single turn at 20-strong unless you have excellent LoS and volume), go after Ghost Arks (needing, as suggested, high S low D weaponry) in hopes of knocking off a buff early in the game, or target other threats (fast stuff like Tomb Blades, dangerous stuff like Deathmarks, tactical stuff driven by objectives and mission parameters, etc.). What do you hit first or hardest?
MacPhail wrote: On the question of how to confront Necrons, how do SoB players prioritize targets? It seems they are an army where singular focus is needed, but that means hard choices right out of the gate. Obviously the mission will dictate specifics, but in general, do you try to take out blobs of Warriors (difficult in a single turn at 20-strong unless you have excellent LoS and volume), go after Ghost Arks (needing, as suggested, high S low D weaponry) in hopes of knocking off a buff early in the game, or target other threats (fast stuff like Tomb Blades, dangerous stuff like Deathmarks, tactical stuff driven by objectives and mission parameters, etc.). What do you hit first or hardest?
It's going to be dependent on the mission and the opponent. That being said, in the example you gave, you're going to have to take the ghost ark down first or the damage you do to the warriors isn't going to matter.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voldrak wrote: I have not seen them being discussed yet, but that is everyone's take on the Avenger Strike Fighter this edition?
While it only shares the Imperium keyword with us now, I would still like to play the one I have.
For a base 165 points you get a 7T, 14 wound 3+ save flyer.
Its only 5 points more expensive than an exorcists, but only hits on 4 due to heavy weapons and having to constantly move.
Stick another two autocannons on it and it jumps to 195 points. It does become a solid fire base at that point.
I converted one back when we could use it but now that we have the pick of any flyer, it doesn't seem as big a deal. It's certainly not a horrible choice, but I don't feel like it is an optimal one either.
Its only 5 points more expensive than an exorcists, but only hits on 4 due to heavy weapons and having to constantly move.
Stick another two autocannons on it and it jumps to 195 points. It does become a solid fire base at that point.
I've only gotten 1 game in with my ASF. The 4+ to hit kinda sucks and I'm wondering why it didn't get Strafing Run this edition. I'm chalking it up to an oversight/rushed indexes, though. It's pretty durable from my one use of it and Tactical bombs are pretty neat. You could do 10D6 hits to a squad of 20 warriors for 20 pts.
I'm certainly warming to them. They are expensive, but everything is nowadays and they work well with a multiple front, tons of threat type list. Dominions (Melta and SB squads in Repressors) and Penitent Engines could be a solid threat to a lot of lists.
MacPhail wrote: On the question of how to confront Necrons, how do SoB players prioritize targets? It seems they are an army where singular focus is needed, but that means hard choices right out of the gate. Obviously the mission will dictate specifics, but in general, do you try to take out blobs of Warriors (difficult in a single turn at 20-strong unless you have excellent LoS and volume), go after Ghost Arks (needing, as suggested, high S low D weaponry) in hopes of knocking off a buff early in the game, or target other threats (fast stuff like Tomb Blades, dangerous stuff like Deathmarks, tactical stuff driven by objectives and mission parameters, etc.). What do you hit first or hardest?
It's going to be dependent on the mission and the opponent. That being said, in the example you gave, you're going to have to take the ghost ark down first or the damage you do to the warriors isn't going to matter.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voldrak wrote: I have not seen them being discussed yet, but that is everyone's take on the Avenger Strike Fighter this edition?
While it only shares the Imperium keyword with us now, I would still like to play the one I have.
For a base 165 points you get a 7T, 14 wound 3+ save flyer.
Its only 5 points more expensive than an exorcists, but only hits on 4 due to heavy weapons and having to constantly move.
Stick another two autocannons on it and it jumps to 195 points. It does become a solid fire base at that point.
I converted one back when we could use it but now that we have the pick of any flyer, it doesn't seem as big a deal. It's certainly not a horrible choice, but I don't feel like it is an optimal one either.
I know I'm going to get dirty looks for this, but after seeing some battle reports from Ego Queen Alexis? Take a Stormraven. We'll never be able to ride in it, but all that dakka with a 3+ to hit because of PotMS looks very worthwhile.
As for the Avenger, atm I'm trying to figure out what to do with the Stuka and A-10 models I got about a year back and never opened. Wanted to kit bash them both into two Avengers, but I've never done any conversion work before and I realized pretty quickly I don't have the skills or knowledge to do what I planned on doing.
Taikishi wrote: I've never done any conversion work before and I realized pretty quickly I don't have the skills or knowledge to do what I planned on doing.
That's a great reason to dive in and get started! Don't invest too much time or energy, don't hold yourself to an unreasonably high standard, and don't be disappointed if the results aren't perfect. I'd say just pick a material you want to learn some skill with, like plasticard or green stuff, watch a video or two, and make something happen!
I suppose the one nice thing is I only spent like $25 USD on both models so if I screw it up, I'm not out much.
I'll think about it, especially since I'll need to buy some flying bases for both of them regardless. But now I'm considering Lightnings instead of Avengers. Maybe even one of each -- Avenger kitted out for medium armor targets, Lighting with 6 skystrike missiles for hunting flyers.
I know I'm going to get dirty looks for this, but after seeing some battle reports from Ego Queen Alexis? Take a Stormraven. We'll never be able to ride in it, but all that dakka with a 3+ to hit because of PotMS looks very worthwhile.
As for the Avenger, atm I'm trying to figure out what to do with the Stuka and A-10 models I got about a year back and never opened. Wanted to kit bash them both into two Avengers, but I've never done any conversion work before and I realized pretty quickly I don't have the skills or knowledge to do what I planned on doing.
Do not let yourself be held back by lack of skills. When I decided to build my leviathan, I scrapped 3 imperial bunkers. I was originally going to make the chassis from them and then decided I didnt like the look and decided to build everything from foam core.
You'll make mistakes along the way, but it's part of the learning process and you will be much happier with a model that ends up unique in the end.
MacPhail wrote: On the question of how to confront Necrons, how do SoB players prioritize targets? It seems they are an army where singular focus is needed, but that means hard choices right out of the gate. Obviously the mission will dictate specifics, but in general, do you try to take out blobs of Warriors (difficult in a single turn at 20-strong unless you have excellent LoS and volume), go after Ghost Arks (needing, as suggested, high S low D weaponry) in hopes of knocking off a buff early in the game, or target other threats (fast stuff like Tomb Blades, dangerous stuff like Deathmarks, tactical stuff driven by objectives and mission parameters, etc.). What do you hit first or hardest?
It's going to be dependent on the mission and the opponent. That being said, in the example you gave, you're going to have to take the ghost ark down first or the damage you do to the warriors isn't going to matter.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voldrak wrote: I have not seen them being discussed yet, but that is everyone's take on the Avenger Strike Fighter this edition?
While it only shares the Imperium keyword with us now, I would still like to play the one I have.
For a base 165 points you get a 7T, 14 wound 3+ save flyer.
Its only 5 points more expensive than an exorcists, but only hits on 4 due to heavy weapons and having to constantly move.
Stick another two autocannons on it and it jumps to 195 points. It does become a solid fire base at that point.
I converted one back when we could use it but now that we have the pick of any flyer, it doesn't seem as big a deal. It's certainly not a horrible choice, but I don't feel like it is an optimal one either.
I know I'm going to get dirty looks for this, but after seeing some battle reports from Ego Queen Alexis? Take a Stormraven. We'll never be able to ride in it, but all that dakka with a 3+ to hit because of PotMS looks very worthwhile.
As for the Avenger, atm I'm trying to figure out what to do with the Stuka and A-10 models I got about a year back and never opened. Wanted to kit bash them both into two Avengers, but I've never done any conversion work before and I realized pretty quickly I don't have the skills or knowledge to do what I planned on doing.
You can blag a lot with 40k. 40k is very forgiving in regards to conversion work because if a join or something looks iffy you can cover it in wires or chains or purity seals and it suits the aesthetic.
MacPhail wrote: On the question of how to confront Necrons, how do SoB players prioritize targets? It seems they are an army where singular focus is needed, but that means hard choices right out of the gate. Obviously the mission will dictate specifics, but in general, do you try to take out blobs of Warriors (difficult in a single turn at 20-strong unless you have excellent LoS and volume), go after Ghost Arks (needing, as suggested, high S low D weaponry) in hopes of knocking off a buff early in the game, or target other threats (fast stuff like Tomb Blades, dangerous stuff like Deathmarks, tactical stuff driven by objectives and mission parameters, etc.). What do you hit first or hardest?
The immolator flamer is lights out the best thing for necron warrior spam.
Three of those hitting a squad of 20, followed up by a bolter and flamer infantry barrage, and a charge to finish it off if needed.
It's just not worth trying to outlast them, just be obvious about it and crash those 20 man squads, even ONE warrior living is a pain in the ass.
MacPhail wrote:On the question of how to confront Necrons, how do SoB players prioritize targets? It seems they are an army where singular focus is needed, but that means hard choices right out of the gate. Obviously the mission will dictate specifics, but in general, do you try to take out blobs of Warriors (difficult in a single turn at 20-strong unless you have excellent LoS and volume), go after Ghost Arks (needing, as suggested, high S low D weaponry) in hopes of knocking off a buff early in the game, or target other threats (fast stuff like Tomb Blades, dangerous stuff like Deathmarks, tactical stuff driven by objectives and mission parameters, etc.). What do you hit first or hardest?
So far, I've gone ahead and unloaded gunfire into the little guys.
However, Ghost Arks carry 10 Gauss guns, Doomsday Arks carry 10 Gauss guns and the big cannon, and Annihilation Barges carry a lot of dakka too. I can't just go and pretend the tanks don't exist, since they're also flyers and happen to be too big for Celestine to chop up in one turn.
RabbitMaster wrote:Any kind of weapon that does 2 or d3 damage is pretty good against Q shielding. Exorcist are great at killing them and if you're bringing allies then earthshakers / manticore / battlecanons / IK gatling / autocanons are all excellent choices. Heavy bolters are not too bad too. Then you have all the bolter-ish potshots you can use.
I guess so.
Captain Joystick wrote:Quantum Shielding fears high strength low damage attacks and, obviously, the more you can put out rapidly the better.
Three squads of three repentia (or one squad of nine) with a mistress in a rhino could theoretically advance in vehicle, eject and charge (making use of the mistress' rerolls), if they do that while the rhino is in combat with something, are they also in combat with it?
IIRC units with quantum shields are T6 so massed fire from bolters and even flamers is very close to effectiveness as heavy bolters and heavy flamers.
Actually, I would look to the exorcist for this. Long range, up to D6 shots, and only D3 damage, meaning Q's has, at best, a 33% success chance on any one of them.
Now, the problem is that then I would have to bring an Exorcist or Repentia. While I have Exorcists and Repentia, they're not exactly particularly useful to spend points on in-masse, especially for all-comers lists.
Currently I'm running 1 exorcist and 1 penitent engine, and banking on Necrons failing enough QS saves to meltaguns and massed storm bolter fire to bring it down once the little guys are gone, but it's not a particularly reliable answer to them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: A thought just came to mind, and while this counts as Wishlisting, I'm kind of curious.
Space Marines get Chapter Tactics and unique strategems.
Imperial Guard Regiments are going to be getting doctrines and their own unique strategems, same for traitor legions, forge worlds, etc.
So it struck me that, since we've been demoted to "Imperial Agents", do you think we'll have 1 "chapter tactic" for all the Adepta Sororitas, or do you think we'll get unique traits and stratagems depending on our Order of choice?
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Space Marines get Chapter Tactics and unique strategems.
Imperial Guard Regiments are going to be getting doctrines and their own unique strategems, same for traitor legions, forge worlds, etc.
So it struck me that, since we've been demoted to "Imperial Agents", do you think we'll have 1 "chapter tactic" for all the Adepta Sororitas, or do you think we'll get unique traits and stratagems depending on our Order of choice?
Uhh.. we already have our chapter tactics. They're called Acts of Faith. I'm sure we'll get some unique strategems in 2043 when our codex is released.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: So it struck me that, since we've been demoted to "Imperial Agents", do you think we'll have 1 "chapter tactic" for all the Adepta Sororitas, or do you think we'll get unique traits and stratagems depending on our Order of choice?
The potential exists, each order does have relative differences in disposition and tactical doctrine.
That said, I don't think it's neccesary to gripe about the Imperial Agents thing right now, that book was a proto-index as it is and GW seems content to push sisters under the 'Ministorum' banner, which is fine.
So here's a tentative e list I'm building towards. I started with my existing sisters models as a seed that I could expand from, as it stands I have enough standard bolters to supply future variations and its just a matter of getting specialists.
In the future I'd like to convert some penitent engines too... C&C appreciated.
Battle Sister Squad . 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter
Battle Sister Squad . 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter
Battle Sister Squad . 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter
+ Elites +
Hospitaller
Hospitaller
Imagifier
+ Fast Attack +
Dominion Squad . 4x Dominion
. Dominion Superior: Bolt pistol, Combi-melta
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
Dominion Squad . 4x Dominion
. Dominion Superior: Bolt pistol, Combi-melta
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
Seraphim Squad . 7x Seraphim
. Seraphim Superior: Plasma pistol, Power sword
. Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Hand Flamers
. Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Hand Flamers
+ Heavy Support +
Exorcist: Storm bolter
Exorcist: Storm bolter
Retributor Squad . 5x Retributor
. Retributor Superior: Bolt pistol, Power maul, Storm bolter
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
+ Dedicated Transport +
Immolator: Immolation Flamer, Storm bolter
Immolator: Immolation Flamer, Storm bolter
Sororitas Repressor: Heavy flamer, Storm bolter, Storm bolter
Sororitas Repressor: Heavy flamer, Storm bolter, Storm bolter
Overall plan would be for the canoness to hang back with the retributors and exorcists. Celestine and the seraphim push to disrupt synergies by killing the force multipliers or important buff providers before moving on to important targets of opportunity, while the doms take the repressors and push in to take out heavy-hitting vehicles as soon 's possible (with medics riding with them to (hopefully?) bring one back in a pinch after the tank explodes and they're fighting for their lives. The battle sisters ride in the immos and run to objectives as neccesary, the remainder either occupies a nearby place with the rear-guard, or footslogs to an objective nearby, depending on mission parameters.
Captain Joystick wrote: So here's a tentative e list I'm building towards. I started with my existing sisters models as a seed that I could expand from, as it stands I have enough standard bolters to supply future variations and its just a matter of getting specialists.
In the future I'd like to convert some penitent engines too... C&C appreciated.
Battle Sister Squad . 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter
Battle Sister Squad . 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter
Battle Sister Squad . 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter
+ Elites +
Hospitaller
Hospitaller
Imagifier
+ Fast Attack +
Dominion Squad . 4x Dominion
. Dominion Superior: Bolt pistol, Combi-melta
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
Dominion Squad . 4x Dominion
. Dominion Superior: Bolt pistol, Combi-melta
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
Seraphim Squad . 7x Seraphim
. Seraphim Superior: Plasma pistol, Power sword
. Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Hand Flamers
. Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Hand Flamers
+ Heavy Support +
Exorcist: Storm bolter
Exorcist: Storm bolter
Retributor Squad . 5x Retributor
. Retributor Superior: Bolt pistol, Power maul, Storm bolter
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
+ Dedicated Transport +
Immolator: Immolation Flamer, Storm bolter
Immolator: Immolation Flamer, Storm bolter
Sororitas Repressor: Heavy flamer, Storm bolter, Storm bolter
Sororitas Repressor: Heavy flamer, Storm bolter, Storm bolter
Overall plan would be for the canoness to hang back with the retributors and exorcists. Celestine and the seraphim push to disrupt synergies by killing the force multipliers or important buff providers before moving on to important targets of opportunity, while the doms take the repressors and push in to take out heavy-hitting vehicles as soon 's possible (with medics riding with them to (hopefully?) bring one back in a pinch after the tank explodes and they're fighting for their lives. The battle sisters ride in the immos and run to objectives as neccesary, the remainder either occupies a nearby place with the rear-guard, or footslogs to an objective nearby, depending on mission parameters.
I'm not fully sold on Hospitallers. My MSU Dominions rarely have anyone left to heal, and they won't be able to keep up with the Dominions anyway.
Imagifiers can work with Rets, but I also look at it and can't help but feel that it would be more points-efficient just to buy another squad of Rets. I also think Rets are better than Exorcists, but it might be good to have Exorcists around to deal with Quantum Shielding and provide long-range harassment if we have to fight Tau/IG Gunline on Hammer and Anvil, and backfield objective capture.
Personally, I'd pass over ordinary Battle Sisters entirely in favor of Dominions and Retributors. 2 CP for double-outrider or outrider-spearhead is only one less than a Battalion.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Space Marines get Chapter Tactics and unique strategems.
Imperial Guard Regiments are going to be getting doctrines and their own unique strategems, same for traitor legions, forge worlds, etc.
So it struck me that, since we've been demoted to "Imperial Agents", do you think we'll have 1 "chapter tactic" for all the Adepta Sororitas, or do you think we'll get unique traits and stratagems depending on our Order of choice?
Uhh.. we already have our chapter tactics. They're called Acts of Faith. I'm sure we'll get some unique strategems in 2043 when our codex is released.
We have Orders so one would assume we will get Order tactics.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Space Marines get Chapter Tactics and unique strategems.
Imperial Guard Regiments are going to be getting doctrines and their own unique strategems, same for traitor legions, forge worlds, etc.
So it struck me that, since we've been demoted to "Imperial Agents", do you think we'll have 1 "chapter tactic" for all the Adepta Sororitas, or do you think we'll get unique traits and stratagems depending on our Order of choice?
Uhh.. we already have our chapter tactics. They're called Acts of Faith. I'm sure we'll get some unique strategems in 2043 when our codex is released.
I feel like Acts of Faith was what we got to make up for the fact that we never really got an actual well developed army, just a lot of left over Space Marine stuff and a limted number of models. Now the few interesting and unique things we did have, Preachers, Acts of Faith, twin pistol jump troops, Inferno Pistols, Twin Heavy Flamer transports, Eviscerators, etc have all been taken by Space Marines. I feel like if they can have 6 times the units we have, AND all of our neat stuff, AND chapter tactics maybe we can have something like chapter tactics too.
I'd like to see some sort of 'vow' based system where for your army, or for each canoness, you make a vow that restricts your options, but then provides specific benefits. Sort of like chapter tactics, but built more around sacrifice.
But wishlisting aside, acts of faith are hardly enough. The faction is entirely reliant on a single special character to be remotely viable, and plenty of our other options just don't make sense (canoness mostly just fills space, Celestians have completely backwards wargear options, etc.). It also doesn't help that faith REALLY doesn't scale well.
I started with my existing sisters models as a seed that I could expand from, as it stands I have enough standard bolters to supply future variations and its just a matter of getting specialists.
In the future I'd like to convert some penitent engines too... C&C appreciated.
Battle Sister Squad . 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter
Battle Sister Squad . 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter
Battle Sister Squad . 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter
+ Elites +
Hospitaller
Hospitaller
Imagifier
+ Fast Attack +
Dominion Squad . 4x Dominion
. Dominion Superior: Bolt pistol, Combi-melta
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
Dominion Squad . 4x Dominion
. Dominion Superior: Bolt pistol, Combi-melta
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
Seraphim Squad . 7x Seraphim
. Seraphim Superior: Plasma pistol, Power sword
. Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Hand Flamers
. Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Hand Flamers
+ Heavy Support +
Exorcist: Storm bolter
Exorcist: Storm bolter
Retributor Squad . 5x Retributor
. Retributor Superior: Bolt pistol, Power maul, Storm bolter
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
+ Dedicated Transport +
Immolator: Immolation Flamer, Storm bolter
Immolator: Immolation Flamer, Storm bolter
Sororitas Repressor: Heavy flamer, Storm bolter, Storm bolter
Sororitas Repressor: Heavy flamer, Storm bolter, Storm bolter
Overall plan would be for the canoness to hang back with the retributors and exorcists. Celestine and the seraphim push to disrupt synergies by killing the force multipliers or important buff providers before moving on to important targets of opportunity, while the doms take the repressors and push in to take out heavy-hitting vehicles as soon 's possible (with medics riding with them to (hopefully?) bring one back in a pinch after the tank explodes and they're fighting for their lives. The battle sisters ride in the immos and run to objectives as neccesary, the remainder either occupies a nearby place with the rear-guard, or footslogs to an objective nearby, depending on mission parameters.
I run 3 Imagifiers
My list is Sisters, Sisters, and more Sisters, with AoF spam. More Acts of Faith means more bonus Shooting phases for my Bolter Babes.
Fafnir wrote: I'd like to see some sort of 'vow' based system where for your army, or for each canoness, you make a vow that restricts your options, but then provides specific benefits. Sort of like chapter tactics, but built more around sacrifice.
But wishlisting aside, acts of faith are hardly enough. The faction is entirely reliant on a single special character to be remotely viable, and plenty of our other options just don't make sense (canoness mostly just fills space, Celestians have completely backwards wargear options, etc.). It also doesn't help that faith REALLY doesn't scale well.
I'd rather not restrict our options. I mean, as is, what is there to restrict?
Sorry to add another topic amid all this great discussion... has anyone run bulk infantry and tested out how many models of rapid firing BS3+ S4 guns and 3+ armor saves we can throw down? I dont have a ton of bolter babes, but I might be tempted to try wall o' Sisters. I bet I could do 6 units of 15 with flamer and heavy flamer. Two battalions with Canoni? Plus mech'd melta Doms?
Fafnir wrote: I'd like to see some sort of 'vow' based system where for your army, or for each canoness, you make a vow that restricts your options, but then provides specific benefits. Sort of like chapter tactics, but built more around sacrifice.
But wishlisting aside, acts of faith are hardly enough. The faction is entirely reliant on a single special character to be remotely viable, and plenty of our other options just don't make sense (canoness mostly just fills space, Celestians have completely backwards wargear options, etc.). It also doesn't help that faith REALLY doesn't scale well.
I'd rather not restrict our options. I mean, as is, what is there to restrict?
I say this with the expectation that a new release including Sisters would be done with an expanded list of (viable) options to begin with.
Giantwalkingchair wrote:At 2k we can do 200 BSS models and a few canoness and dialogus and such to fill out. A lot of shots indeed.
Of course such a thing would cost $1500+AUD to get new from GW.
Even then, you'd get better firepower per point by dropping your model count to accommodate Dominions with stormbolters. Drop those 200 BSS down to 150 Dominions, and you're getting 50% more firepower, with 30 vanguard movements to really annoy the hell out of your opponent.
Fafnir wrote: I'd like to see some sort of 'vow' based system where for your army, or for each canoness, you make a vow that restricts your options, but then provides specific benefits. Sort of like chapter tactics, but built more around sacrifice.
But wishlisting aside, acts of faith are hardly enough. The faction is entirely reliant on a single special character to be remotely viable, and plenty of our other options just don't make sense (canoness mostly just fills space, Celestians have completely backwards wargear options, etc.). It also doesn't help that faith REALLY doesn't scale well.
Why would we have restrictions when the Marines don't?
An idea I had was "Battle-Hymns". When you choose your Order, you choose a Battle-Hymn for it (with each of the Orders Majoris having a "canon" Battle-Hymn). These are more powerful than Chapter Tactics, but only apply to infantry squads (which is fine, really) and rather than being passive, are activated-- lasting from the start of your turn to the start of your next turn for a quick burst of ability.
Such as "Battle-Hymn of the Martyr: Until the start of your next turn, for each wound an <Order> infantry suffers, roll d6. On a 4+, ignore the wound."
Or "Battle-Hymn of the Shroud: Until the start of your next turn, all mortal wounds against <Order> infantry count as normal wounds. Additionally, <Order> infantry count as toughness 5."
Or "Battle-Hymn of Wrath: Until the start of your next turn, <Order> infantry reroll all to-hit and to-wound rolls."
Course problem with something like this is it'd probably be too powerful in the hands of a skilled player, even if it only lasts one turn.
Fafnir wrote: I'd like to see some sort of 'vow' based system where for your army, or for each canoness, you make a vow that restricts your options, but then provides specific benefits. Sort of like chapter tactics, but built more around sacrifice.
But wishlisting aside, acts of faith are hardly enough. The faction is entirely reliant on a single special character to be remotely viable, and plenty of our other options just don't make sense (canoness mostly just fills space, Celestians have completely backwards wargear options, etc.). It also doesn't help that faith REALLY doesn't scale well.
Why would we have restrictions when the Marines don't?
I'd see it as a restriction so that the bonus is much much better than anything the marines could have, and i really like this idea.
It themes rather nicely
Fafnir wrote: But wishlisting aside, acts of faith are hardly enough. The faction is entirely reliant on a single special character to be remotely viable, and plenty of our other options just don't make sense (canoness mostly just fills space, Celestians have completely backwards wargear options, etc.). It also doesn't help that faith REALLY doesn't scale well.
I actually had an idea regarding how to make Acts of Faith scale.
What if the sergeant in every unit generated an extra Act of Faith on a 6+ each turn? Then some units might have bonuses (e.g. Celestians could generate one on a 5+). Characters could have better chances to generate them (usually 5+), with the Cannoness netting you an extra one on a 2+ or 3+.
(I know that Imagnifiers would have to change for this.)
Hey all, first time poster, long time lurker. The new injection of dakka the Sisters have received has finally got me into them again after a five year hiatus and fresh from their dettol bath I am giving them all a new look
This being said from my play tests of late I tend to agree with our lack of heavy armour killyness especially when it is against Necrons.
I have seen some talk of Fire Raptors, Razorwings and Xyphons
as good flyer options that fill out some of our problems, but what about an Imperial Knight? A Warden or a FW varient could give us that Dakka punch we need or if we went close combat tank killer, then maybe it would be threat enough for our Penitents to be almost guaranteed to go to town?
Thoughts?
P.S. - I've just always wanted a reason to paint up a Knight in Sister colours as the oath some Houses make to factions make it entirely fluffy to do so.
Fafnir wrote: I'd like to see some sort of 'vow' based system where for your army, or for each canoness, you make a vow that restricts your options, but then provides specific benefits. Sort of like chapter tactics, but built more around sacrifice.
But wishlisting aside, acts of faith are hardly enough. The faction is entirely reliant on a single special character to be remotely viable, and plenty of our other options just don't make sense (canoness mostly just fills space, Celestians have completely backwards wargear options, etc.). It also doesn't help that faith REALLY doesn't scale well.
Why would we have restrictions when the Marines don't?
I'd see it as a restriction so that the bonus is much much better than anything the marines could have, and i really like this idea.
It themes rather nicely
Marine CTs are powerful - having more powerful Order Tactics without a pts cost is going to be problematic. Restricting options seldom works well unless they are very good options that would normally be taken. Esepcially if like Marines there will be the abilty to have different Order detachments with different Order tactics. Plus a free Relic or two - oh and strategms.
P.S. - I've just always wanted a reason to paint up a Knight in Sister colours as the oath some Houses make to factions make it entirely fluffy to do so.
I've played a few games and have decided on this list as an effective TAC list, any suggestions or ideas welcome.
Outrider and Vanguard Detachments (5CP), 10 drops min. 1999 pts
HQ Celestine (Warlord, +1A)
Canoness
Troops
5 BSS, Immolator with HB and SB 5 BSS, Immolator with HB and SB 5 BSS, Immolator with HB and SB
Fast Attack
5 Doms- 2 MG, 2 SB, combiplasma, Immolator w Flamer and SB 5 Doms- 2 MG, 2 SB, combiplasma, Immolator w Flamer and SB 5 Doms- 2 MG, 2 SB, combiplasma, Immolator w Flamer and SB 9 Seraphim- 2 with dual Inferno Pistols
9 Seraphim- 2 with dual Inferno Pistols
Heavy Support
Exorcist
Exorcist
5 Retributors with 4 Heavy Bolters, Immolator with HB
Basic strategy is Doms and Seraphim with Celestine charge forward in mutual support, taking advantage of Celestine's Beacon of Faith buff.
Heavies and HB Immolators set up a fire base with the Canoness reroll 1s buff.
If I setup all infantry within their transports (except Celestine) and have the Seraphims deep strike, I can set up with a 10 drop force. That may be few enough to go first vs some opponents.
Totals of 4 Immolators with HB, 3 Immolators with Flamer and SB, 2 Exorcists
55 girl models
I took 3 Troops choices as I wanted the Immolators to hang back and provide fire support anyway, also as late game obj grabbers.
I think the list provides enough melta and Exo missile support to deal with armor and high-T models, as well as enough dakka to deal with hordes.
Thoughts?
Melissia wrote: If you have two outrider detachments you need six fast attack choices, not five, otherwise you lose Battle Forged.
True. I guess I could just make one of the detachments a Vanguard.
Also, i took standard Sisters just to get the HB Immolators for my fire base. Several thoughts went into this.... first is that these Immolators will not attract as much fire as the rest of my force and leave the scoring units inside intact (unless needed for support), second is that plain Sisters are still very effective for their cost, and third is that I believe Troops choices will soon be a thing again, judging from what is going on with SM.
HB Immolators buffed by the Canoness has been rather effective at range at knocking out a variety of opponents, my fire base of 4 HB Immolators and the Ret squad pump out 36 shots at 36", BS 3+ with reroll to-hits of 1, and the Immolators can take a bit of punishment before they start to lose effectiveness. The Rets are cheaper but more fragile.
davidgr33n wrote: I've played a few games and have decided on this list as an effective TAC list
Spoiler:
, any suggestions or ideas welcome.
Outrider and Vanguard Detachments (5CP), 10 drops min. 1999 pts
HQ Celestine (Warlord, +1A)
Canoness
Troops
5 BSS, Immolator with HB and SB 5 BSS, Immolator with HB and SB 5 BSS, Immolator with HB and SB
Fast Attack
5 Doms- 2 MG, 2 SB, combiplasma, Immolator w Flamer and SB 5 Doms- 2 MG, 2 SB, combiplasma, Immolator w Flamer and SB 5 Doms- 2 MG, 2 SB, combiplasma, Immolator w Flamer and SB 9 Seraphim- 2 with dual Inferno Pistols
9 Seraphim- 2 with dual Inferno Pistols
Heavy Support
Exorcist
Exorcist
5 Retributors with 4 Heavy Bolters, Immolator with HB
Basic strategy is Doms and Seraphim with Celestine charge forward in mutual support, taking advantage of Celestine's Beacon of Faith buff.
Heavies and HB Immolators set up a fire base with the Canoness reroll 1s buff.
If I setup all infantry within their transports (except Celestine) and have the Seraphims deep strike, I can set up with a 10 drop force. That may be few enough to go first vs some opponents.
Totals of 4 Immolators with HB, 3 Immolators with Flamer and SB, 2 Exorcists
55 girl models
I took 3 Troops choices as I wanted the Immolators to hang back and provide fire support anyway, also as late game obj grabbers.
I think the list provides enough melta and Exo missile support to deal with armor and high-T models, as well as enough dakka to deal with hordes.
Thoughts?
55 Bolter Babes in a 2000 point list sounds REALLY light to me. The Girls are SO cheap (not THAT way, although there are rumors...) I'd want at least 100 Nuns With Guns in 2000 points.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
davidgr33n wrote: HB Immolators buffed by the Canoness has been rather effective at range at knocking out a variety of opponents
I'm not sure of the Mathhammer, but I'd rather have more Rets with four Heavy Bolters.
Fafnir wrote: But wishlisting aside, acts of faith are hardly enough. The faction is entirely reliant on a single special character to be remotely viable, and plenty of our other options just don't make sense (canoness mostly just fills space, Celestians have completely backwards wargear options, etc.). It also doesn't help that faith REALLY doesn't scale well.
I actually had an idea regarding how to make Acts of Faith scale.
What if the sergeant in every unit generated an extra Act of Faith on a 6+ each turn? Then some units might have bonuses (e.g. Celestians could generate one on a 5+). Characters could have better chances to generate them (usually 5+), with the Cannoness netting you an extra one on a 2+ or 3+.
(I know that Imagnifiers would have to change for this.)
Any thoughts?
That's very good, I think. At least, it provides better scaling that what we have. Though if it replaces the army-wide one, it might be Superior trigger on a 5+ [veteran upgrade for 4+], Celestians on a 4+, Canonesses on a 3+, and Imagifiers give a +1 to this roll for units within 6".
Sororita Katya wrote:Hey all, first time poster, long time lurker. The new injection of dakka the Sisters have received has finally got me into them again after a five year hiatus and fresh from their dettol bath I am giving them all a new look
This being said from my play tests of late I tend to agree with our lack of heavy armour killyness especially when it is against Necrons.
I have seen some talk of Fire Raptors, Razorwings and Xyphons
as good flyer options that fill out some of our problems, but what about an Imperial Knight? A Warden or a FW varient could give us that Dakka punch we need or if we went close combat tank killer, then maybe it would be threat enough for our Penitents to be almost guaranteed to go to town?
Thoughts?
P.S. - I've just always wanted a reason to paint up a Knight in Sister colours as the oath some Houses make to factions make it entirely fluffy to do so.
Knights are good if you like stompy robots. I would go with the flamethrower knight for theme, but the Battle Cannon/Avenger Bolt Cannon one is probably the best overall.
Melissia wrote:An idea I had was "Battle-Hymns". When you choose your Order, you choose a Battle-Hymn for it (with each of the Orders Majoris having a "canon" Battle-Hymn). These are more powerful than Chapter Tactics, but only apply to infantry squads (which is fine, really) and rather than being passive, are activated-- lasting from the start of your turn to the start of your next turn for a quick burst of ability.
Such as "Battle-Hymn of the Martyr: Until the start of your next turn, for each wound an <Order> infantry suffers, roll d6. On a 4+, ignore the wound."
Or "Battle-Hymn of the Shroud: Until the start of your next turn, all mortal wounds against <Order> infantry count as normal wounds. Additionally, <Order> infantry count as toughness 5."
Or "Battle-Hymn of Wrath: Until the start of your next turn, <Order> infantry reroll all to-hit and to-wound rolls."
Course problem with something like this is it'd probably be too powerful in the hands of a skilled player, even if it only lasts one turn.
I might go with the passive Order bonus being different triggers for Acts of Faith, and make the Order strategem link with the passive.
The Avenging Spirit of Saint Katherine: At the beginning of each turn, Order of Our Martyred Lady units that lost one or more models since the beginning of their last turn manifest an Act of Faith on a 6+, and add 1 to this roll for each model lost previously in the game.
The Crusading Spirit of Saint Silvana: At the beginning of each turn, Order of the Argent Shroud units that advanced in the previous turn manifest an Act of Faith on a 4+.
The Enduring Faith of Saint Alicia: At the beginning of each turn, Order of the Ebon Chalice units that gained the benefit of an Act of Faith in the previous turn manifest an Act of Faith on a 2+, subtract 1 from this roll for each previous time the unit benefited from an Act of Faith.
The Resolute Spirit of Saint Lucia: At the beginning of each turn, each Order of the Valorous Heart unit that passed a Shield of Faith invulnerable save may manifest an Act of Faith on a 4+
The Prepared Spirit of Saint Mina: At the beginning of each turn, Order of the Bloody Rose units that were charged in the previous turn manifest an Act of Faith on a 4+.
The Calm Spirit of Saint Arabella: Order of the Sacred Rose units add 4 to their Deny the Witch rolls. At the beginning of each turn, Order of the Sacred Rose units that passed a morale check or denied the witch since the beginning of their last turn manifest an Act of Faith on a 4+.
1CP, Katherine's Retribution: Select a Order of Our Martyred Lady INFANTRY unit, until the beginning of it's next turn, that unit gains a bonus to it's AP equal to the number of models the unit has lost.
1CP, Silvana's Aggression: Select a Order of the Argent Shroud INFANTRY unit, until the beginning of it's next turn, that unit counts as having remained stationary, even if it moved and advanced.
1CP, Alicia's Guidance: Use this stratagem only at the beginning of any of your turns. Select a Order of the Ebon Chalice INFANTRY unit, that unit may manifest an Act of Faith.
1CP, Lucia's Resolve: Select a Order of the Valorous Heart INFANTRY unit, until the beginning of it's next turn, Shield of Faith's invulnerable save is improved to a 3+.
1CP, Mina's Defense: Select a Order of the Bloody Rose INFANTRY unit, until the beginning of their next turn, that squad makes Overwatch attacks at it's normal ballistic skill and may fire Overwatch even if enemy models are within 1" of it.
1CP, Arabella's Discipline: Select a Order of the Sacred Rose INFANTRY unit, that unit passes all morale checks it makes and has no limit on the number of times it may attempt to Deny the Witch until the beginning of its next turn.
It would give our orders more characterization than "the black-red order, the silver-white order, etc." and separate us from the Space Marines.
davidgr33n wrote: I've played a few games and have decided on this list as an effective TAC list
Spoiler:
, any suggestions or ideas welcome.
Outrider and Vanguard Detachments (5CP), 10 drops min. 1999 pts
HQ Celestine (Warlord, +1A)
Canoness
Troops
5 BSS, Immolator with HB and SB 5 BSS, Immolator with HB and SB 5 BSS, Immolator with HB and SB
Fast Attack
5 Doms- 2 MG, 2 SB, combiplasma, Immolator w Flamer and SB 5 Doms- 2 MG, 2 SB, combiplasma, Immolator w Flamer and SB 5 Doms- 2 MG, 2 SB, combiplasma, Immolator w Flamer and SB 9 Seraphim- 2 with dual Inferno Pistols
9 Seraphim- 2 with dual Inferno Pistols
Heavy Support
Exorcist
Exorcist
5 Retributors with 4 Heavy Bolters, Immolator with HB
Basic strategy is Doms and Seraphim with Celestine charge forward in mutual support, taking advantage of Celestine's Beacon of Faith buff.
Heavies and HB Immolators set up a fire base with the Canoness reroll 1s buff.
If I setup all infantry within their transports (except Celestine) and have the Seraphims deep strike, I can set up with a 10 drop force. That may be few enough to go first vs some opponents.
Totals of 4 Immolators with HB, 3 Immolators with Flamer and SB, 2 Exorcists
55 girl models
I took 3 Troops choices as I wanted the Immolators to hang back and provide fire support anyway, also as late game obj grabbers.
I think the list provides enough melta and Exo missile support to deal with armor and high-T models, as well as enough dakka to deal with hordes.
Thoughts?
55 Bolter Babes in a 2000 point list sounds REALLY light to me. The Girls are SO cheap (not THAT way, although there are rumors...) I'd want at least 100 Nuns With Guns in 2000 points.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
davidgr33n wrote: HB Immolators buffed by the Canoness has been rather effective at range at knocking out a variety of opponents
I'm not sure of the Mathhammer, but I'd rather have more Rets with four Heavy Bolters.
100 is way too much for me, since tanks cost as-much or more than the troops within them. If I have 100, someone isn't going to be riding in a tank.
I've been using 30 Dominions at about 1500 points [75PL, as I explained somewhere, the local league decided to use PL for some unknown reason] At 2000, I think I might be able to push it up to 40 or 50 through use of Repressors, if I'm allowed Forgeworld models.
Sororita Katya wrote: Hey all, first time poster, long time lurker. The new injection of dakka the Sisters have received has finally got me into them again after a five year hiatus and fresh from their dettol bath I am giving them all a new look
This being said from my play tests of late I tend to agree with our lack of heavy armour killyness especially when it is against Necrons.
I have seen some talk of Fire Raptors, Razorwings and Xyphons
as good flyer options that fill out some of our problems, but what about an Imperial Knight? A Warden or a FW varient could give us that Dakka punch we need or if we went close combat tank killer, then maybe it would be threat enough for our Penitents to be almost guaranteed to go to town?
Thoughts?
P.S. - I've just always wanted a reason to paint up a Knight in Sister colours as the oath some Houses make to factions make it entirely fluffy to do so.
A knight is a good addition to sisters, i've almost always had one at 1500-2000 pts.
It saves some points away from Acts of Faith.
It distracts the enemy quite a lot, leaving them open to your Dominions and other close strikes. That's why i have/had? a Melta cannon and chainsword on mine.
It tanks your front line more than your other units can.
It also has quite a nice threat on death, and if combined with the CC options, tends to keep Close combat units away, unless they KNOW they can take it. Then you move him back and saturate the enemy with dominions X)
So looking at the SM codex as a role model, what are people's thoughts on double battalion or brigade lists? I suspect CP are about to become a lot more important
PanzerLeader wrote: So looking at the SM codex as a role model, what are people's thoughts on double battalion or brigade lists? I suspect CP are about to become a lot more important
While I really like the idea of a brigade list,
I am struggling to come up with one to fit into 2000 points, and still get all the goodies I want.
Do you think it's best to have bare bones BSS or not?
PanzerLeader wrote: So looking at the SM codex as a role model, what are people's thoughts on double battalion or brigade lists? I suspect CP are about to become a lot more important
While I really like the idea of a brigade list,
I am struggling to come up with one to fit into 2000 points, and still get all the goodies I want.
Do you think it's best to have bare bones BSS or not?
I think the troop base could be 2x15 bolter girls for screening and 4x5 sisters with specials in transports. Just can't decide if it fits better in two battalions (requiring the additional HQ) or a brigade with the other tax slots.
PanzerLeader wrote: So looking at the SM codex as a role model, what are people's thoughts on double battalion or brigade lists? I suspect CP are about to become a lot more important
Until we know for sure that the Sisters dex (if) uses CP's or instead uses even more Faith points its hard to say. I am all in for Outrider detachments at the moment, but I would go for a battalion on the cheap with an outrider before I went for the brigade. Those tax units start to add up after a while.
PanzerLeader wrote: So looking at the SM codex as a role model, what are people's thoughts on double battalion or brigade lists? I suspect CP are about to become a lot more important
Until we know for sure that the Sisters dex (if) uses CP's or instead uses even more Faith points its hard to say. I am all in for Outrider detachments at the moment, but I would go for a battalion on the cheap with an outrider before I went for the brigade. Those tax units start to add up after a while.
I'm pretty convinced that the general trend this edition is to make armies unique through key words and stratagems so it's worth planning against. I've been using battalion + spearhead so far but I think I'll want 9-12 CPs if a sisters codex is half as good as marines.
PanzerLeader wrote: So looking at the SM codex as a role model, what are people's thoughts on double battalion or brigade lists? I suspect CP are about to become a lot more important
While I really like the idea of a brigade list,
I am struggling to come up with one to fit into 2000 points, and still get all the goodies I want.
Do you think it's best to have bare bones BSS or not?
I don't like the brigade. It's not hard to have at least 3 Dominions/Seraphim and 3 Retributors/Exorcists, and if you're running 6 squads of Battle Sisters then you'll definitely be coughing up for at least 3 Imagifiers, but it's the 6 squads of Battle Sisters that give me pause. Two things need to happen for me to even consider them: 1, units that advanced under Hand of the Emperor need to still be able to fire [and charge], and 2, Acts of Faith need better scaling than a 50/50 shot at one for 40 points that's guaranteed to leave behind the source.
Mental image: Repressors carry the battle sister squads, with a Dialogous in the two 9-member squads' Repressors. Immolators carry Dominions and two of the Canonesses. One of the Canonesses stays back with the Retributor squads to give them rerolls, along with one of the Dialogous just in case it ends up mattering. At deployment, the 7 vehicles, fifteen retributors, an imagifier, and a canoness are on the table, the rest are in transports.
Yes, probably not super-good. But it at least looks fun. Could free up points to add storm bolters on to the vehicles by removing power swords, but IDK. I like them.
I recently came into some Sisters of Battle (because I have always wanted to play them, and turns out a buddy had them lying around all along just waiting to be snatched up!) but I wanted your advice on how to play it.
Now my thoughts were that they wouldn't use any vehicles, partly because my buddy doesn't have any (and getting some is expensive. I love the look of Exorcists but holy Emperor...) and partly because I think the idea of a power-armoured foot horde is awesome, and there's still high mobility thanks to AoF.
Anyways, here's my inventory so far:
1 St. Celestine (got the geminae off of ebay)
3 leader-types (sister superiors, I think) with Power Sword + Boltgun
2 leader-types with plasma pistols and chainswords
1 little cherub thingy (??)
1 leader type with bolter + power maul
2 leader types with combi-flamers and little Ecclesiarchy icons (one is missing the icon, was gonna make a canoness and stick an eviscerator on the wrist, has one of those)
4 banner-pole-bearers (imagifiers?)
46 boltgun ladies
11 seraphim, 2 with hand flamers and one with plasma-pistol + power sword
13 flamer ladies
1 storm bolter lady
7 meltagun ladies
3 multi-melta ladies
4 heavy bolter ladies
3 heavy flamer ladies
10 repentia
1 mistress of repentence
11 priests
1 uriah jacobus sans shotgun
Anyways, should I load up on Rhinos anyways? Despite my desire to try a foot horde? Or do you think I can make it work with that inventory? I was thinking 3 15 girl squads of Flamer/Heavy Flamer, then one Dominion squad of combi-melta (converted, probably) and 4 Meltas, then maybe some 5-girl squads (if I have the models, didn't add completely yet) with melta/multi melta. Seraphim would be fielded predictably, as would the repentia, and then priests and leaders to taste.
Does that sound like an awful idea? Any tips on running them? Any advice on models to add? I'd be happy to add stuff, but getting my hands on an exorcist or 2 now is just ... gonna be hard. I think they're out of stock on GW's website.
Anyways, any input would be appreciated.
To reiterate: Some advice on how to get stuff would be welcome as well. EBay is just ridiculous price wise; seems if it's been sprayed and spat on it's 'pro-painted', and I'm actually happy to pay GW retail to supplement but like 2/3rds of their website is out of stock.
Mental image: Repressors carry the battle sister squads, with a Dialogous in the two 9-member squads' Repressors. Immolators carry Dominions and two of the Canonesses. One of the Canonesses stays back with the Retributor squads to give them rerolls, along with one of the Dialogous just in case it ends up mattering. At deployment, the 7 vehicles, fifteen retributors, an imagifier, and a canoness are on the table, the rest are in transports.
Yes, probably not super-good. But it at least looks fun. Could free up points to add storm bolters on to the vehicles by removing power swords, but IDK. I like them.
Well, if the Dominions are sharing a vehicle with non-dominions, they can't Vanguard. The Vanguard move is what makes them so good.
Unit1126PLL wrote:Hi everyone!
I recently came into some Sisters of Battle (because I have always wanted to play them, and turns out a buddy had them lying around all along just waiting to be snatched up!) but I wanted your advice on how to play it.
Now my thoughts were that they wouldn't use any vehicles, partly because my buddy doesn't have any (and getting some is expensive. I love the look of Exorcists but holy Emperor...) and partly because I think the idea of a power-armoured foot horde is awesome, and there's still high mobility thanks to AoF.
Anyways, here's my inventory so far:
1 St. Celestine (got the geminae off of ebay)
3 leader-types (sister superiors, I think) with Power Sword + Boltgun
2 leader-types with plasma pistols and chainswords
1 little cherub thingy (??)
1 leader type with bolter + power maul
2 leader types with combi-flamers and little Ecclesiarchy icons (one is missing the icon, was gonna make a canoness and stick an eviscerator on the wrist, has one of those)
4 banner-pole-bearers (imagifiers?)
46 boltgun ladies
11 seraphim, 2 with hand flamers and one with plasma-pistol + power sword
13 flamer ladies
1 storm bolter lady
7 meltagun ladies
3 multi-melta ladies
4 heavy bolter ladies
3 heavy flamer ladies
10 repentia
1 mistress of repentence
11 priests
1 uriah jacobus sans shotgun
Anyways, should I load up on Rhinos anyways? Despite my desire to try a foot horde? Or do you think I can make it work with that inventory? I was thinking 3 15 girl squads of Flamer/Heavy Flamer, then one Dominion squad of combi-melta (converted, probably) and 4 Meltas, then maybe some 5-girl squads (if I have the models, didn't add completely yet) with melta/multi melta. Seraphim would be fielded predictably, as would the repentia, and then priests and leaders to taste.
Does that sound like an awful idea? Any tips on running them? Any advice on models to add? I'd be happy to add stuff, but getting my hands on an exorcist or 2 now is just ... gonna be hard. I think they're out of stock on GW's website.
Anyways, any input would be appreciated.
To reiterate: Some advice on how to get stuff would be welcome as well. EBay is just ridiculous price wise; seems if it's been sprayed and spat on it's 'pro-painted', and I'm actually happy to pay GW retail to supplement but like 2/3rds of their website is out of stock.
Well, I wouldn't take Rhinos, but I'd take Immolators or Repressors.
I would always recommend Dominions, even if you don't plan to put them in vehicles, because the Vanguard move is more than worth it. They can Advance in their Vanguard move, and therefore get into rapid-fire/melta range on turn 1, which is significant.
Also, I'd pass on Flamers. Storm Bolters are so much better and much more points-efficient.
As for buying stuff, just wait for it to go back in stock. Buy some Immolators or convert some Repressors. Also, like the rest of us, you're going to want Storm Bolters, but, you know, we're all in line there. I just click the "email me" button for all the things I want, and hope that they're not sold out by the time I get the message and get around to it!
PanzerLeader wrote: So looking at the SM codex as a role model, what are people's thoughts on double battalion or brigade lists? I suspect CP are about to become a lot more important
Until we know for sure that the Sisters dex (if) uses CP's or instead uses even more Faith points its hard to say. I am all in for Outrider detachments at the moment, but I would go for a battalion on the cheap with an outrider before I went for the brigade. Those tax units start to add up after a while.
Yeah, but what "tax" units were you NOT going to take anyway?
Elite? You were going to take an Imagifier. At least one.
Fast? You were going to take Doms AND Seraphin anyway.
Heavy? You were planning to take Heavy Bolter Rets. Or take two Heavy Flamer Rets in an Imolator and send them in behind your Doms in an Imolator.
My guideline for Sisters army lists is Girls, Girls, and more Girls, generating as many Acts of Faith per turn as possible.
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Melissia wrote: That's a fair point. I really wish canonesses had jump packs...
PanzerLeader wrote: So looking at the SM codex as a role model, what are people's thoughts on double battalion or brigade lists? I suspect CP are about to become a lot more important
Until we know for sure that the Sisters dex (if) uses CP's or instead uses even more Faith points its hard to say. I am all in for Outrider detachments at the moment, but I would go for a battalion on the cheap with an outrider before I went for the brigade. Those tax units start to add up after a while.
Yeah, but what "tax" units were you NOT going to take anyway?
Elite? You were going to take an Imagifier. At least one.
Fast? You were going to take Doms AND Seraphin anyway.
Heavy? You were planning to take Heavy Bolter Rets. Or take two Heavy Flamer Rets in an Imolator and send them in behind your Doms in an Imolator.
My guideline for Sisters army lists is Girls, Girls, and more Girls, generating as many Acts of Faith per turn as possible.
6 Battle Sister Squads.
I also run with 0 Imagifiers in my list right now, because I have nobody for them to buff. Dominions in transports can't receive an Act of Faith, and Dominions outside of transports are too far away from Imagifiers to be able to receive an Act of Faith from anyone other than Celestine. In addition, Imagifiers are an additional deployment drop, and block Vanguard if loaded into a transport, so they're really not something I'm going to take if I can avoid it. At 40 points and a drop, I'd rather take a stock Dominions squad, and a stack of H-K missiles would be more effective.
Definitely proxy these as Storm Bolters. Nobody will mind - it's easy to remember and they're easily distinguishable from regular Sisters.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: I also run with 0 Imagifiers in my list right now, because I have nobody for them to buff. Dominions in transports can't receive an Act of Faith, and Dominions outside of transports are too far away from Imagifiers to be able to receive an Act of Faith from anyone other than Celestine. In addition, Imagifiers are an additional deployment drop, and block Vanguard if loaded into a transport, so they're really not something I'm going to take if I can avoid it. At 40 points and a drop, I'd rather take a stock Dominions squad, and a stack of H-K missiles would be more effective.
Katherine, I'm very interested to see an example of what you're running in a 2K TAC - if you're at all happy to share? I've had a lot of the same revelations as you concerning the detachments, Imagifiers etc. and it sounds like you have a considerable number of games played to draw from.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Do you guys think it's worth it to chop up the flamer sisters and make them into combi-flamer or storm bolter sisters? It may be /possible/...
The better way will be proxy. I don't think it's worth chopping up our Sisters just yet until the new Codex drops (as things could drastically change). If you want to make some Sisters to fill, use some Dreamforge bodies or the new Raging heroes and switch them out on plastic models, or...and I hate the idea but for the short term, Space Marines with female heads attached (which isn't hard and a...viable...I guess option).
Unit1126PLL wrote: Do you guys think it's worth it to chop up the flamer sisters and make them into combi-flamer or storm bolter sisters? It may be /possible/...
Don't chop them up, proxy if you like, but try them as flamers too. 4 doms on foot, vanguard advance move, aof advance move and then advance and flame.
You could have a threat range for a first turn 4d6 auto hits on a unit 36" (on average) from your deployment zone. Ok that may be suicidal but it would be cool. Also your foot slogger list (very cool btw) could be vulnerable to being out manoeuvred by fast cc units. Flamers autohit on overwatch (if chargers are within 8") so can be a nice deterrent/defence.
I'm not fully sold on Hospitallers. My MSU Dominions rarely have anyone left to heal, and they won't be able to keep up with the Dominions anyway.
It completely slipped my mind that the hospitaller was completely unsuited to following the dominions around, whoops! I've tentatively eliminated one and will run the other behind the retributors, using the points saved I can equip five out of six vehicles with HK missiles, what do people think of them?
Also, now that my hand is feeling better I finally made some vital progress on that canoness:
Spoiler:
I made a last minute decision to lift that black-shouldered two-tone of the Exorcists and I'm pretty pleased with the colour balance.
Re-reading the thread has infected me with doubt about my anti-tank capabilities with a foot sisters list... if Meltaguns no longer cut it, what's the plan for anti-tank, then?
Canoness is looking great Captain Joystick, what are you going to arm her with?
Unit1126PLL wrote: Re-reading the thread has infected me with doubt about my anti-tank capabilities with a foot sisters list... if Meltaguns no longer cut it, what's the plan for anti-tank, then?
Pure Sisters then Melta and Exorcists, other than that you will have to look for outside help such as the scions and other plasma toting imperium.
Sororita Katya wrote: Canoness is looking great Captain Joystick, what are you going to arm her with?
Unit1126PLL wrote: Re-reading the thread has infected me with doubt about my anti-tank capabilities with a foot sisters list... if Meltaguns no longer cut it, what's the plan for anti-tank, then?
Pure Sisters then Melta and Exorcists, other than that you will have to look for outside help such as the scions and other plasma toting imperium.
I don't plan on running any exorcists.
I suppose I'll have to trust the God-Emperor-given meltaguns.
Melta is still the best anti-tank weapon in the Sisters' armory. It's just a question of how you field it, and footslogging expensive models to get them in melta range (or even just the gun's max range) maximizes the chance that their intended target will take them out first. That's why a transport for them is so essential, the repressor allowing them to shoot without getting off is what makes it such a stand-out choice.
Beyond that, a big blob of repentia have the same problems dominions have, though a penitent engine looks very fun.
Penitents are great! I'm running three and if they're not taken down (which leaves them open to my repressor line) then they make their points up very quickly. I've always given them elite infantry though, not sure how they would go against a tank...
Sororita Katya wrote: Canoness is looking great Captain Joystick, what are you going to arm her with?
An eviscerator on her right arm, I've shaved the thumb off the book and used a bit from a skitari rust stalker to make it look like she's holding it in an augmetic left hand.
I'll run her with bolt/plasma/inferno pistol as required and points allowed, she's got enough stuff on her hips or under robes that I can justify it being holstered somewhere.
I realize now I missed a golden opportunity: could have mounted the eviscerator on the augmetic and called her Sister Ashley.
Captain Joystick wrote: Melta is still the best anti-tank weapon in the Sisters' armory. It's just a question of how you field it, and footslogging expensive models to get them in melta range (or even just the gun's max range) maximizes the chance that their intended target will take them out first. That's why a transport for them is so essential, the repressor allowing them to shoot without getting off is what makes it such a stand-out choice.
Beyond that, a big blob of repentia have the same problems dominions have, though a penitent engine looks very fun.
Well, my super secret plan would be to Vanguard the Dominions forwards, possibly 2 squads of 4 with meltaguns, 6+d6", then move+advance 6+d6", and fire. If I had to, I could use an act of faith on them to get them even closer, but ideally that'd be enough to take out or cripple an enemy Big Nasty, even if I can't get all of them.
What's the math on 10 meltaguns vs a Land Raider? *does math*
Looks like right around 9 wounds if they fire after advancing and hit on a 4+.
Sounds like I need more Meltaguns, or somehow finagle it that the sisters last more than the enemy's next turn so I can get another few shots. Even 2-3 more desultory hits could kill a LR (They've 16 wounds, right?)
Definitely proxy these as Storm Bolters. Nobody will mind - it's easy to remember and they're easily distinguishable from regular Sisters.
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Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: I also run with 0 Imagifiers in my list right now, because I have nobody for them to buff. Dominions in transports can't receive an Act of Faith, and Dominions outside of transports are too far away from Imagifiers to be able to receive an Act of Faith from anyone other than Celestine. In addition, Imagifiers are an additional deployment drop, and block Vanguard if loaded into a transport, so they're really not something I'm going to take if I can avoid it. At 40 points and a drop, I'd rather take a stock Dominions squad, and a stack of H-K missiles would be more effective.
Katherine, I'm very interested to see an example of what you're running in a 2K TAC - if you're at all happy to share? I've had a lot of the same revelations as you concerning the detachments, Imagifiers etc. and it sounds like you have a considerable number of games played to draw from.
That's 9 drops, which doesn't actually compare super favorably, all things considered, which makes me consider eliminating the Penitent Engine and Exorcist for 2 squads of Retributors and an extra Repressor, but then I lose the anti-tank functionality of those two vehicles for added anti-infantry capacity, which isn't something I actually need. I've run my Shadowsword as an attachment to otherwise pure-sisters lists, which does wonders for driving the drop-count down, and is effective.
I don't actually get a lot of chances to test out 2k lists, because the local league plays 75PL. Why they play 75PL escapes me, because all our "casual" games use points, but whatever.
In general, I err on the side of "too much antitank" to "too little antitank". Vehicles are everywhere in my local meta, and I can always point meltaguns at infantry once I run out of vehicle targets. I might have to change it up though, because I saw one of the local Tyranids players switch from mostly Monstrous Creatures to running 90+ Hormagaunts with increased success, so I think that, if people are paying attention, the local Tyranids, Orks, and Necrons may shift towards having more infantry in the near future, which would require increased anti-infantry commitment on my part.
I'm not fully sold on Hospitallers. My MSU Dominions rarely have anyone left to heal, and they won't be able to keep up with the Dominions anyway.
It completely slipped my mind that the hospitaller was completely unsuited to following the dominions around, whoops! I've tentatively eliminated one and will run the other behind the retributors, using the points saved I can equip five out of six vehicles with HK missiles, what do people think of them?
Also, now that my hand is feeling better I finally made some vital progress on that canoness:
Spoiler:
I made a last minute decision to lift that black-shouldered two-tone of the Exorcists and I'm pretty pleased with the colour balance.
Nice!
I like H-K missiles. They're an almost a necessity when fielding Repressors, I think, since Repressors can't take TL Multimeltas. In addition, they've got long enough range to reach to the back and stick hits on Manticores and Wyverns, which helps out quite a bit too.
Sororita Katya wrote:Penitents are great! I'm running three and if they're not taken down (which leaves them open to my repressor line) then they make their points up very quickly. I've always given them elite infantry though, not sure how they would go against a tank...
Penitents work on tanks too. I blew up a Land Raider with one, but the ensuing explosion also killed the Penitent Engine.
Sororita Katya wrote:Penitents are great! I'm running three and if they're not taken down (which leaves them open to my repressor line) then they make their points up very quickly. I've always given them elite infantry though, not sure how they would go against a tank...
Penitents work on tanks too. I blew up a Land Raider with one, but the ensuing explosion also killed the Penitent Engine.
I'm running 4 penitent engines (2 squads of 2) behind Big C, Seraphim, 5 squads of Dominions and 5 Immolators. It's doing the God-Emperor's work in my clubs league!
I've said previously either in this thread or the old one that the problem with Penitent Engines is that if someone really wants them dead then they're going to die and there's not much you can do about it. I've found though that if you front load enough threat then they'll survive long enough to get into combat and rape face. My last game was VS horde orks with a gorkanaut and a morkanaut. on turn 1 my 12 melta guns only managed to bring one of the big guys down to just under the first degradation tier who then got healed back over it next turn by a mech. The next turn when the penitents got to charge the walkers, they just turned them inside out. it was insane.
PanzerLeader wrote: So looking at the SM codex as a role model, what are people's thoughts on double battalion or brigade lists? I suspect CP are about to become a lot more important
Until we know for sure that the Sisters dex (if) uses CP's or instead uses even more Faith points its hard to say. I am all in for Outrider detachments at the moment, but I would go for a battalion on the cheap with an outrider before I went for the brigade. Those tax units start to add up after a while.
Yeah, but what "tax" units were you NOT going to take anyway?
Elite? You were going to take an Imagifier. At least one.
Fast? You were going to take Doms AND Seraphin anyway.
Heavy? You were planning to take Heavy Bolter Rets. Or take two Heavy Flamer Rets in an Imolator and send them in behind your Doms in an Imolator.
My guideline for Sisters army lists is Girls, Girls, and more Girls, generating as many Acts of Faith per turn as possible.
6 Battle Sister Squads.
I also run with 0 Imagifiers in my list right now, because I have nobody for them to buff. Dominions in transports can't receive an Act of Faith, and Dominions outside of transports are too far away from Imagifiers to be able to receive an Act of Faith from anyone other than Celestine. In addition, Imagifiers are an additional deployment drop, and block Vanguard if loaded into a transport, so they're really not something I'm going to take if I can avoid it. At 40 points and a drop, I'd rather take a stock Dominions squad, and a stack of H-K missiles would be more effective.
Exactly that, those BSS just aren't fitting in. Vanguard is the real AoF for Dominions, even bare bones squads doubled up in Repressors is better than BSS. One Imagifer is enough to buy stormbolters for four squads of Dominions. I know which I would rather have.
Is Vanguard so powerful that I'm better off running Bolter Sisters as Dominions rather than in BSS? Should I just eliminate the idea of a BSS from my head and run multiple Outriders full of Dominions but with essentially the same loadout?
Is Vanguard so powerful that I'm better off running Bolter Sisters as Dominions rather than in BSS? Should I just eliminate the idea of a BSS from my head and run multiple Outriders full of Dominions but with essentially the same loadout?
Yes. As I said, even on foot, if you're not pushing the frontline, the ability to re-deploy your Dominions in response to the enemy deployment is huge.
Is Vanguard so powerful that I'm better off running Bolter Sisters as Dominions rather than in BSS? Should I just eliminate the idea of a BSS from my head and run multiple Outriders full of Dominions but with essentially the same loadout?
Yes. As I said, even on foot, if you're not pushing the frontline, the ability to re-deploy your Dominions in response to the enemy deployment is huge.
It saddens me that the poor BSS is so overshadowed, but I am gladdened by the increase in mobility I have - I know I won't be as mobile as transport-bound sisters, but I do feel like I have options both with Vanguard and Acts of Faith to maneuver about the field more easily than the usual footslogging horde.
That said, is 4 Imagifiers too many? I know that's only ~2 extra AOF's a turn, but redeploying could be huge, healing could be huge, and even if there's no need for that, extra bullets always help.
It's worth noting that I'll likely have 0 units in my army that can't benefit from Imagifiers as I am unlikely to take vehicles.
Is Vanguard so powerful that I'm better off running Bolter Sisters as Dominions rather than in BSS? Should I just eliminate the idea of a BSS from my head and run multiple Outriders full of Dominions but with essentially the same loadout?
Yes. As I said, even on foot, if you're not pushing the frontline, the ability to re-deploy your Dominions in response to the enemy deployment is huge.
It saddens me that the poor BSS is so overshadowed, but I am gladdened by the increase in mobility I have - I know I won't be as mobile as transport-bound sisters, but I do feel like I have options both with Vanguard and Acts of Faith to maneuver about the field more easily than the usual footslogging horde.
That said, is 4 Imagifiers too many? I know that's only ~2 extra AOF's a turn, but redeploying could be huge, healing could be huge, and even if there's no need for that, extra bullets always help.
It's worth noting that I'll likely have 0 units in my army that can't benefit from Imagifiers as I am unlikely to take vehicles.
It's not that BSS are bad, they're just outright worse than Dominions. That's okay though, because Dominions are a unit that's special to us that the Space Marines don't have [yet].
Here's the thing:
Additional units have additional wounds, because well, there's more of them, outweighing the healing [probably, assuming there's a squad to heal]. Also, redundancy.
Additional units always have additional guns, which are always firing. That's extra shooting guaranteed, instead of extra shooting half the time.
Additional units gives better board control. Re-deploying probably isn't necessary. Also, redundancy.
Is Vanguard so powerful that I'm better off running Bolter Sisters as Dominions rather than in BSS? Should I just eliminate the idea of a BSS from my head and run multiple Outriders full of Dominions but with essentially the same loadout?
Yes. As I said, even on foot, if you're not pushing the frontline, the ability to re-deploy your Dominions in response to the enemy deployment is huge.
It saddens me that the poor BSS is so overshadowed, but I am gladdened by the increase in mobility I have - I know I won't be as mobile as transport-bound sisters, but I do feel like I have options both with Vanguard and Acts of Faith to maneuver about the field more easily than the usual footslogging horde.
That said, is 4 Imagifiers too many? I know that's only ~2 extra AOF's a turn, but redeploying could be huge, healing could be huge, and even if there's no need for that, extra bullets always help.
It's worth noting that I'll likely have 0 units in my army that can't benefit from Imagifiers as I am unlikely to take vehicles.
It's not that BSS are bad, they're just outright worse than Dominions. That's okay though, because Dominions are a unit that's special to us that the Space Marines don't have [yet].
Here's the thing:
Additional units have additional wounds, because well, there's more of them, outweighing the healing [probably, assuming there's a squad to heal]. Also, redundancy.
Additional units always have additional guns, which are always firing. That's extra shooting guaranteed, instead of extra shooting half the time.
Additional units gives better board control. Re-deploying probably isn't necessary. Also, redundancy.
So Imagifiers are out too - essentially, the list is Canoness x1, Retributors, Dominions, and Big C.
Is Vanguard so powerful that I'm better off running Bolter Sisters as Dominions rather than in BSS? Should I just eliminate the idea of a BSS from my head and run multiple Outriders full of Dominions but with essentially the same loadout?
Yes. As I said, even on foot, if you're not pushing the frontline, the ability to re-deploy your Dominions in response to the enemy deployment is huge.
It saddens me that the poor BSS is so overshadowed, but I am gladdened by the increase in mobility I have - I know I won't be as mobile as transport-bound sisters, but I do feel like I have options both with Vanguard and Acts of Faith to maneuver about the field more easily than the usual footslogging horde.
That said, is 4 Imagifiers too many? I know that's only ~2 extra AOF's a turn, but redeploying could be huge, healing could be huge, and even if there's no need for that, extra bullets always help.
It's worth noting that I'll likely have 0 units in my army that can't benefit from Imagifiers as I am unlikely to take vehicles.
It's not that BSS are bad, they're just outright worse than Dominions. That's okay though, because Dominions are a unit that's special to us that the Space Marines don't have [yet].
Here's the thing:
Additional units have additional wounds, because well, there's more of them, outweighing the healing [probably, assuming there's a squad to heal]. Also, redundancy.
Additional units always have additional guns, which are always firing. That's extra shooting guaranteed, instead of extra shooting half the time.
Additional units gives better board control. Re-deploying probably isn't necessary. Also, redundancy.
So Imagifiers are out too - essentially, the list is Canoness x1, Retributors, Dominions, and Big C.
Yes, basically.
Retributors are good because there's nothing better competing for the slot.
Canonesses are there because you have to have one.
Celestine is legitimately good.
Dominions are legitimately good, with or without transport.
Seraphim are good, but only at a rate of 1 Squad Per Celestine.
With regards to transports if I did decide to shell out for them:
1) What's a good way to get / convert Repressors? I saw some earlier, including mention of a 3d-printed top, though haven't heard anything since, and they were neat. Anything consistently serviceable?
2) Repressors vs Immolators seems like the easy choice, and Rhinos are just bad, yes?
Repressors and Immolators are both good, and can fill different niches. Repressors function as a decent firing base for your girls inside, helping to keep them alive while they gun down everything on the outside. It's well rounded and potent.
The Immolator, on the other hand, has a lot more offensive mobility, allowing it to dive head first into wherever it's going and deliver things fast and effectively. The girls inside have to get out to do any shooting, which makes it much less capable for defensive operation, but the Immolator does decent damage on its own to make up for that, letting it harass around the table once it's dropped its payload.
Use whichever of the two suits your situation, but don't neglect to at least consider either one.
If you're looking for repressor/immolator proxies:
These are really good. Come with a load of options including big dozer on the front, single or twin heavy flamers.
I was really pleased with mine. Helpful customer service too. (Just as well cause the website looks a bit old and clunky)
Unit1126PLL wrote: With regards to transports if I did decide to shell out for them:
1) What's a good way to get / convert Repressors? I saw some earlier, including mention of a 3d-printed top, though haven't heard anything since, and they were neat. Anything consistently serviceable?
2) Repressors vs Immolators seems like the easy choice, and Rhinos are just bad, yes?
There are pros and cons to each:
A Repressor, for 98 points, nets you 2 Storm Bolters, a Heavy Flamer, a H-K Missile, and 6 fire points. To really get the most out of it, you should be loading it full of Dominions, because the real advantage is the 10 transport capacity. without the heavy sacrifice in firepower that comes with a Rhino.
A Immolator offers more firepower, but less transport, and you can't shoot out of it. Notably, the Immolator can equip Multimeltas, allowing it to run around and blow up tanks, while the Repressor can't. I'd generally only pick the Immolator for it's Multimeltas because Repressors and Dominions tend to handle infantry pretty well, but the Immolation Flamer shouldn't be overlooked because it's pretty good.
Both are legitimate and competitive choices.
One more thing to keep in mind: by using a Repressor, you're giving your opponent the right to a lot of option, many of which are incredibly poorly balanced. So ask yourself if you're willing to fight a Mastodon or a Ordinatus*, too.
With regards to actually getting them: A year or two ago, FW said the mold broke, and they'll fix it eventually but 30k stuff takes priority. I wouldn't hold my breath. I'm planning to print off parts to convert Rhinos into Repressors, and several other people I think also have CAD files. Someone did a really nice one a while back. If you're doing this, I'd make sure you know the limits of your printer! [I've tried 3D printing parts before, it's not magic]
Immolators are usually available from GW, and they're a nice kit with a lot of trinkets and things.
*Ordinatii are awesome, and I will totally play you if you have one and want to bring one, because I want to see one actually being used.
Unit1126PLL wrote: 1) What's a good way to get / convert Repressors? I saw some earlier, including mention of a 3d-printed top, though haven't heard anything since, and they were neat. Anything consistently serviceable?
I'm currently thinking of mounting a chimera's top plate on top of a rhino chasse. It'd make an elevated back end with portholes, but I'm kind of worried about what I'll do with the rest of the chimera. Currently I'm building an exorcist, immolator, and that repressor out of swapped around hunter, vindicator, and baal predator parts, so I'm sure I can find some use for it.
Unit1126PLL wrote: 1) What's a good way to get / convert Repressors? I saw some earlier, including mention of a 3d-printed top, though haven't heard anything since, and they were neat. Anything consistently serviceable?
I'm currently thinking of mounting a chimera's top plate on top of a rhino chasse. It'd make an elevated back end with portholes, but I'm kind of worried about what I'll do with the rest of the chimera. Currently I'm building an exorcist, immolator, and that repressor out of swapped around hunter, vindicator, and baal predator parts, so I'm sure I can find some use for it.
Repressors aren't a bad choice for two five-girl battle sister squads either, since both squads can fire their three special weapons each (including the combi or sb on the sarge) out of it.
The Vanguard move, either forward or just to re-deploy is worth the point over fielding BSS even with just the same loadout.
Repressors can be easily converted, I did mine with just some spare Exorcist armor plates and a bit of City of Death terrain on some old hacked up ebay rhino's. You dont need the exorcist armor (I was buying Exorcists to get the Immolator sprue and had extra) but any kind of raised superstructure would do. Put a stormbolter on it and a flamer and you are good.
Well yes, of course it is. BSS are poorly internally balanced.
But 2 canonesses (one barebones, 1 with an SB), 2 5-girl BSS w/3 SB, 1 9-girl BSS w/3SB, and two repressors is 461 points and provides some bolter firebases to sit on objectives while the dominions move forwards, and gives you +3cp. Add in an outrider with celestine, dominions, and seraphim, and a spearhead with a canoness and retributors, and you have 11cp total for less than 1500 points. The only tax unit here would be one of the canonesses in the battallion, which is unfortunate but kind of inevitable given we can only have one Celestine.
These are really good. Come with a load of options including big dozer on the front, single or twin heavy flamers.
I was really pleased with mine. Helpful customer service too. (Just as well cause the website looks a bit old and clunky)
Yeah, but it's mounted on the primary hull and doesn't traverse over the extended passenger cab. Actually that front thing would work for that and you can mount a regular rhino's hatch instead of that drum turret.
dracpanzer wrote: The Vanguard move, either forward or just to re-deploy is worth the point over fielding BSS even with just the same loadout.
Repressors can be easily converted, I did mine with just some spare Exorcist armor plates and a bit of City of Death terrain on some old hacked up ebay rhino's. You dont need the exorcist armor (I was buying Exorcists to get the Immolator sprue and had extra) but any kind of raised superstructure would do. Put a stormbolter on it and a flamer and you are good.
I made 5 repressors a few years ago using a normal rhino as a base. I used plasti-card for all the construction plus a few bits for the guns. Here is one (right) next to the FW version:
I also still have a set of plasti-card templates for the bits required, just in case i wanted to make more (seriously tempted to convert my 2 remaining sob rhinos now). Heres the template photo:
Love the build on those, very true to the FW look. I like more bling on my Sisters but yours are very cool. Definitely shows that even though the Repressor isn't currently available, it's in the FW index, and there are a lot of ways for Sisters to convert them. Great stuff.
Does anyone have any ideas on how to convert your typical scratch built Repressor to go with the dual stormbolter build? I have been running mine as the straight out of the box 90 point build. Actually using the dozer blade for assaults more than I thought I would be... I was thinking that you could use the turret and gunner from the MK1 Immolator and cut the heavy flamers off where they meet the gun shield and mount your stormbolters directly to where the heavy flamers extend through the gun shield. Plasticard up the gaps and you wouldn't know.
I need to take a look into the fit when I get back from vacation to see if the old turret fits into the basic top hatch of a new rhino.
Any ideas on modeling Sororitas H/K missiles? Seriously tempted to go with the 98 point build (2 SB's, Hvy Fl, H/K) has anyone used both, was it worth the extra points?
dracpanzer wrote: Does anyone have any ideas on how to convert your typical scratch built Repressor to go with the dual stormbolter build?
All rhino kits come with storm bolter parts and two pieces to mount them on (a hatch for a manned gunner position, and a mount for an automated gun that you mount on the little rotating plates), you can mount one on the cupola as your included one, and then magnetize the stand-alone; you'll need a storm bolter bit from somewhere else to do it.
I'm planning on mounting a flamer on the cupola hatch and using a chimera hull bolter on the front where the vindicator's got that gap in its dozer blade, with a magnetically for the storm bolter as described.
Any ideas on modeling Sororitas H/K missiles? Seriously tempted to go with the 98 point build (2 SB's, Hvy Fl, H/K) has anyone used both, was it worth the extra points?
The rhino sprue comes with one of those as well, it's the part that looks like a space marine's missile launcher, right?
Jack Burton over on B&C has done up his repressor conversions from immolators. Simply taken some MDF, traced around the immolator top part and cut it out, bam, simple raised but for the repressor and can still be fielded as an immolator. I love the end result.
I'm half tempted just to do what petre (I think?) did, and just have a rhino with the raised Immolator bit and a heavy flamer with 2x storm bolters, and call it a repressor.
The stained-glass windows can pass as fire-points, and the fact that it's raised noticeably above the height of a rhino and looks different while lacking the turret of an immolator and also still having an IG dozer on the front would work, hm?
Question for sister players. I've read several places that Celestine can have 18 attacks in a turn. This seems very off so can anyone clarify how much Celestine can attacks in a round? I thought it was just 6 attacks? Thanks.
buddha wrote: Question for sister players. I've read several places that Celestine can have 18 attacks in a turn. This seems very off so can anyone clarify how much Celestine can attacks in a round? I thought it was just 6 attacks? Thanks.
If you count both players having their turns as a single turn then she can. On the turn you charge you'll be doing your normal 6 attacks.
But after that over the course of the opponents turn and your turn you'll have:
6 attacks in the opponents fight phase
6 attacks from acts of faith in your movement phase
6 attacks in your fight phase
for a total of 18 attacks over the course of you and your opponent taking a single turn each.
buddha wrote: Question for sister players. I've read several places that Celestine can have 18 attacks in a turn. This seems very off so can anyone clarify how much Celestine can attacks in a round? I thought it was just 6 attacks? Thanks.
If you count both players having their turns as a single turn then she can. On the turn you charge you'll be doing your normal 6 attacks.
But after that over the course of the opponents turn and your turn you'll have:
6 attacks in the opponents fight phase
6 attacks from acts of faith in your movement phase
6 attacks in your fight phase
for a total of 18 attacks over the course of you and your opponent taking a single turn each.
I have a strategy question. Seems there is overwhelming support for maximizing our Vanguard ability. Doms in a transport for fast alpha deployment is definitely competitive. My conundrum is this, against more elite forces with fewer drops we will usually be going second, so why would we want to move CLOSER to an opponent who is going to be shooting at us first? Conversely, horde forces may have more drops but they WANT to close in on us, so again,what is the benefit of Vanguard in this situation?
Is our weight of fire potentially enough to take a round of fire and still take it to the enemy? Or is it more a type of 'redeployment' tactic to make our opponent second-guess our intent?
Help me understand why Vanguard is so good that I should take double Outrider detachments instead of another detachment with more CP.
You can vanguard move after you know whether you'll be seizing the initiative or not. So place yourself in a position to either move up and strike, or move away into cover depending on the situation.
davidgr33n wrote: I have a strategy question. Seems there is overwhelming support for maximizing our Vanguard ability. Doms in a transport for fast alpha deployment is definitely competitive. My conundrum is this, against more elite forces with fewer drops we will usually be going second, so why would we want to move CLOSER to an opponent who is going to be shooting at us first? Conversely, horde forces may have more drops but they WANT to close in on us, so again,what is the benefit of Vanguard in this situation?
Is our weight of fire potentially enough to take a round of fire and still take it to the enemy? Or is it more a type of 'redeployment' tactic to make our opponent second-guess our intent?
Help me understand why Vanguard is so good that I should take double Outrider detachments instead of another detachment with more CP.
Double up in Repressors.
Also elite armies aren't nearly dangerous enough, most of the time, to be worried about the second turn.
davidgr33n wrote: I have a strategy question. Seems there is overwhelming support for maximizing our Vanguard ability. Doms in a transport for fast alpha deployment is definitely competitive. My conundrum is this, against more elite forces with fewer drops we will usually be going second, so why would we want to move CLOSER to an opponent who is going to be shooting at us first? Conversely, horde forces may have more drops but they WANT to close in on us, so again,what is the benefit of Vanguard in this situation?
Is our weight of fire potentially enough to take a round of fire and still take it to the enemy? Or is it more a type of 'redeployment' tactic to make our opponent second-guess our intent?
Help me understand why Vanguard is so good that I should take double Outrider detachments instead of another detachment with more CP.
Double up in Repressors.
Also elite armies aren't nearly dangerous enough, most of the time, to be worried about the second turn.
Its a bit of a shame the game is still so dominated by alpha strikes imo.
But I think it depends on how competitive your local meta is.
On another note, I got some storm bolter girls direct from geedub and an close inspection was a little dissapointed. I think the molds are on the way out as on all three girls their noses were really badly cast with a hole from one side ti the other. I won't be returning them, I'll see it I can patch them up. But keep an eye out for similar problems if your buying direct.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I'm half tempted just to do what petre (I think?) did, and just have a rhino with the raised Immolator bit and a heavy flamer with 2x storm bolters, and call it a repressor.
The stained-glass windows can pass as fire-points, and the fact that it's raised noticeably above the height of a rhino and looks different while lacking the turret of an immolator and also still having an IG dozer on the front would work, hm?
Don't forget the penitent psyker on the front to enhance the durability.
Kapitan Montag wrote: On another note, I got some storm bolter girls direct from geedub and an close inspection was a little dissapointed. I think the molds are on the way out as on all three girls their noses were really badly cast with a hole from one side ti the other. I won't be returning them, I'll see it I can patch them up. But keep an eye out for similar problems if your buying direct.
Its probably just a problem with the batch, I've had sisters with visible seam alignment problems causing one of their shoulder pads to look cracked, but have since gotten new ones of the same type that were fine.
Why not take a picture of the defect and send it to GW customer service anyway?
"I think the molds are on the way out as on all three girls their noses were really badly cast"
"I've had sisters with visible seam alignment problems causing one of their shoulder pads to look cracked"
You know what would fix this problem? Plastic Sisters.
I am furious that GW came out with a whole new plastic unit of females in power armor, Sisters of Silence, and NOTHING for the Nuns With Guns. We've been around since Second Edition FFS!
phydaux wrote: "I think the molds are on the way out as on all three girls their noses were really badly cast"
"I've had sisters with visible seam alignment problems causing one of their shoulder pads to look cracked"
You know what would fix this problem? Plastic Sisters.
I am furious that GW came out with a whole new plastic unit of females in power armor, Sisters of Silence, and NOTHING for the Nuns With Guns. We've been around since Second Edition FFS!
Honestly, I'd have thought you'd be more annoyed that GW once again neglected Sisters in favour of making slightly bigger marines.
phydaux wrote: "I think the molds are on the way out as on all three girls their noses were really badly cast"
"I've had sisters with visible seam alignment problems causing one of their shoulder pads to look cracked"
You know what would fix this problem? Plastic Sisters.
I am furious that GW came out with a whole new plastic unit of females in power armor, Sisters of Silence, and NOTHING for the Nuns With Guns. We've been around since Second Edition FFS!
Honestly, I'd have thought you'd be more annoyed that GW once again neglected Sisters in favour of making slightly bigger marines.
That's a given.
I'm annoyed when anything Space Marine comes out, because I'd rather see literally-anything-but-space-marines for each release.
Also, I've had to deal with the misaligned molds with an Exorcist once. It happens.
phydaux wrote: You know what would fix this problem? Plastic Sisters.
I just bought up thirty three stormbolter girls for my Dominion squads. I don't want plastic Sisters models, not in the least and wouldn't buy any if they did make them. I have actually gotten to a decent level of proficiency in converting the old metal, and unless something truely bizarre comes in the Sisters codex (if.....) I don't see myself making whatever conversions are necessary to field a post dex (if.....) Sisters army.
I actually bought most of them from players in my state who were looking to start Sisters back in the day. Did, didn't, or didn't want to go through the pain of expanding them. Stormbolters were never worth a darn until 8ed, I got lucky and got a decent chunk but had to absorb some other Sisters models I didn't need in the process. Stormbolters went into the cleaning process first, but now that they are ready to move on to painting. I am going to dunk the rest in a simple green bath. If they don't get gobbled up by the drill for my all helmeted Sisters project, they might get recycled once again.
On another note, I got some storm bolter girls direct from geedub and an close inspection was a little dissapointed. I think the molds are on the way out as on all three girls their noses were really badly cast with a hole from one side ti the other. I won't be returning them, I'll see it I can patch them up. But keep an eye out for similar problems if your buying direct.
Friend, you have won the lottery. Send photos to GW customer service and they will almost undoubtedly replace every last miniature with a new one and tell you to keep the defected ones.
However, plastic models means that more people can play Sisters. And if more players = less neglect. At least, in theory. Dark Eldar still manages to go for extremely prolonged periods of time without attention.
"Dark Eldar still manages to go for extremely prolonged periods of time without attention."
Yeah, but aren't their basic models plastic?
I posted it before - Four sprue, two box sets. Plastic Sisters and plastic Seraphim. DONE.
I've decided I'm not spending a cent on 8th Ed., not even the main rule book, until the Sisters codex comes out. That won't be until AFTER December, but oh well.
If the Codex comes with plastic Sisters then I'll drop $800 o na new army without a second thought. No plastic Sisters but a good, competitive Codex, we'll see. If it's a crap Codex then I'll wait and see what 9th is like.
phydaux wrote: "Dark Eldar still manages to go for extremely prolonged periods of time without attention."
Yeah, but aren't their basic models plastic?
I posted it before - Four sprue, two box sets. Plastic Sisters and plastic Seraphim. DONE.
I've decided I'm not spending a cent on 8th Ed., not even the main rule book, until the Sisters codex comes out. That won't be until AFTER December, but oh well.
If the Codex comes with plastic Sisters then I'll drop $800 o na new army without a second thought. No plastic Sisters but a good, competitive Codex, we'll see. If it's a crap Codex then I'll wait and see what 9th is like.
If they got a four sprue update I can only imagine the din of upset players clamoring about a lost opportunity.
I think the point is that GW has made a full plastic revision of armies before and that does not exactly mean the army will suddenly become amazingly popular with outstanding updates and support. This isn't a slam on GW, but a lot of Sisters "updates" have actualy made things worse for the army. Units disappear, they get nerfed from not very good to awful, careful what you wish for. The Index list is actually quite good along with the FW index for the Repressor.
I don't think GW is very impressed with the "plastic SoB sooo hard" crowd, but who knows right?
Plastic Sisters would entirely be targeted at potential new players. We already 1: are willing to pay exorbitant prices for metal models and 2: have a fairly large amount of stuff. Those two conditions alone make it generally less worthwhile to release plastic kits with us as the target, especially considering that there's few of us out there. We are, at best, a secondary target for plastic kits.
Now, plastic kits are definitely good. Bringing new players into this army is a good thing, since we all benefit the more of us there are.
I'd just keep in mind that potential plastic kits wouldn't be for us. They're for the people who'd run Sisters as an allied detachment, or a small secondary force. We've already been relegated to "Imperial Agents" alongside the Astra Telepathica and Officio Assassinorium, and the terrible scaling behind Acts of Faith further points towards this intent. So does Saint Celestine, note how she benefits Imperial Guard as well, and in her Fall of Cadia statblock, could improve any Imperium unit. So I think plastic kits will come, and probably fairly soon, but I'd temper our enthusiasm.
I actually think they could do a big release of new plastic sisters, but they'd need to come up with a nice theme and some cool new units and weargears.
I actually agree. We're cheap, with cheap & effective upgrades, and the Acts are all really cool. That's actually a BAD thing. The Indices were never intended to be anything other than a stop gap measure between the release of the Big Book and the release of the Codices. And that means anything that comes along in the new Sisters Codex can only be a nerf.
Melissia wrote: I actually think they could do a big release of new plastic sisters, but they'd need to come up with a nice theme and some cool new units and weargears.
For what it's worth, I am informed second hand that a release is coming and a codex is in playtesting. The full extent of the information I have been told is "it's coming soon, it's good, and [I] will be happy with it." I do know who the original source is, and while I'm not inclined to disbelieve his statement that there will be a codex soon, I'm also not inclined to trust his judgement on what's good.
Melissia wrote: I actually think they could do a big release of new plastic sisters, but they'd need to come up with a nice theme and some cool new units and weargears.
Sisters in Terminator Armor.
Librarian Sisters
Sisters on Bikes
Sisters flying Speeders
Seriously, GW just needs to put me in charge of the Sisters line.
Melissia wrote: I actually think they could do a big release of new plastic sisters, but they'd need to come up with a nice theme and some cool new units and weargears.
For what it's worth, I am informed second hand that a release is coming and a codex is in playtesting. The full extent of the information I have been told is "it's coming soon, it's good, and [I] will be happy with it." I do know who the original source is, and while I'm not inclined to disbelieve his statement that there will be a codex soon, I'm also not inclined to trust his judgement on what's good.
I'd prefer something like a heavy armor similar to Gravis armor-- superheavy armor that provides more firepower and toughness-- over Terminator armor for Sisters.
And no librarians please. But we should get better Deny The Witch.
I actually agree. We're cheap, with cheap & effective upgrades, and the Acts are all really cool. That's actually a BAD thing. The Indices were never intended to be anything other than a stop gap measure between the release of the Big Book and the release of the Codices. And that means anything that comes along in the new Sisters Codex can only be a nerf.
I don't think so, SM and Chaos points have gone down for quite a few of their units / weapons, in addition to the specific buffs each <chapter, etc> is getting. I would venture that Exorcists and melta weapons including inferno pistols go down in points, Seraphim flamers get a buff, and other prices stay relatively unchanged.
I also believe Sisters players will get a bone or two thrown at us in the form of a new unit or some plastic, but I seriously don't think there will be a total re-vamping of the line.
I sincerely hope you are kidding. I want absolutely none of those things and such a release would probably just fall flat amongst current Sisters players. I have no faith whatsoever that the "SoB soooo hard if they were plastic" players would stick around. Its not like they are an easy army to play amongst even a moderately competitive meta. Sisters players in general play them because they love the army, not because they win all the time. I don't think there is enough of a player base that has abstained from buying the metals who are still so devoted to the army that they will play them no matter how badly they do on the table top after such a release.
If someone thinks Sisters will be auto shows on lead tables after the Dex (if....) they don't know how GW enjoys seeing Sisters players prove their Faith in the big E.
Melissia wrote: I actually think they could do a big release of new plastic sisters, but they'd need to come up with a nice theme and some cool new units and weargears.
For what it's worth, I am informed second hand that a release is coming and a codex is in playtesting. The full extent of the information I have been told is "it's coming soon, it's good, and [I] will be happy with it." I do know who the original source is, and while I'm not inclined to disbelieve his statement that there will be a codex soon, I'm also not inclined to trust his judgement on what's good.
I struggle coming up with unit ideas that aren't just Sisters versions of existing units other armies already have. Beyond that, I don't really see the need for any new units that aren't just new to have something that is new. Sisters have a great list of units with some great ones and just a few stinkers that have gotten much better in 8ed.
I still wish that the Celestian Command Squad had been dropped in as the new Celestian squad. The current Celestian squad with bodyguard and access to wargear on every model would be very close to an auto take for me. Repentia could still be a bit cheaper in my opinion, or have some kind of feel no pain built in to make them more survivable. I've yet to run PenEngines in anything competitive, they seem pricey for what you get, but again, I'm not sure. All these are better in 8ed than the WD, Digi-dex, or Imperial Agents apart from the CCS which was just too expensive to foot the bill for wargear in 7ed.
Three codex versions that definitely came, we were told that we would be happy with, and in the end still never got us to the top tables. I find myself like you Lord Katherine questioning GW's version of good when it comes to Sisters.
I like the index list, stinkers aside, I just don't see it going too far from there. We still don't even know if it will be a Sisters dex or just another version of Imperial Agents do we? All I want is some Sororitas specific cards for Maelstrom missions.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I'm half tempted just to do what petre (I think?) did, and just have a rhino with the raised Immolator bit and a heavy flamer with 2x storm bolters, and call it a repressor.
The stained-glass windows can pass as fire-points, and the fact that it's raised noticeably above the height of a rhino and looks different while lacking the turret of an immolator and also still having an IG dozer on the front would work, hm?
Don't forget the penitent psyker on the front to enhance the durability.
I sincerely hope you are kidding. I want absolutely none of those things and such a release would probably just fall flat amongst current Sisters players. I have no faith whatsoever that the "SoB soooo hard if they were plastic" players would stick around. Its not like they are an easy army to play amongst even a moderately competitive meta. Sisters players in general play them because they love the army, not because they win all the time. I don't think there is enough of a player base that has abstained from buying the metals who are still so devoted to the army that they will play them no matter how badly they do on the table top after such a release.
If someone thinks Sisters will be auto shows on lead tables after the Dex (if....) they don't know how GW enjoys seeing Sisters players prove their Faith in the big E.
Melissia wrote: I actually think they could do a big release of new plastic sisters, but they'd need to come up with a nice theme and some cool new units and weargears.
For what it's worth, I am informed second hand that a release is coming and a codex is in playtesting. The full extent of the information I have been told is "it's coming soon, it's good, and [I] will be happy with it." I do know who the original source is, and while I'm not inclined to disbelieve his statement that there will be a codex soon, I'm also not inclined to trust his judgement on what's good.
I struggle coming up with unit ideas that aren't just Sisters versions of existing units other armies already have. Beyond that, I don't really see the need for any new units that aren't just new to have something that is new. Sisters have a great list of units with some great ones and just a few stinkers that have gotten much better in 8ed.
I still wish that the Celestian Command Squad had been dropped in as the new Celestian squad. The current Celestian squad with bodyguard and access to wargear on every model would be very close to an auto take for me. Repentia could still be a bit cheaper in my opinion, or have some kind of feel no pain built in to make them more survivable. I've yet to run PenEngines in anything competitive, they seem pricey for what you get, but again, I'm not sure. All these are better in 8ed than the WD, Digi-dex, or Imperial Agents apart from the CCS which was just too expensive to foot the bill for wargear in 7ed.
Three codex versions that definitely came, we were told that we would be happy with, and in the end still never got us to the top tables. I find myself like you Lord Katherine questioning GW's version of good when it comes to Sisters.
I like the index list, stinkers aside, I just don't see it going too far from there. We still don't even know if it will be a Sisters dex or just another version of Imperial Agents do we? All I want is some Sororitas specific cards for Maelstrom missions.
I too am happy with what we have models-wise. I would like a FlaK gun, but 8e flyers aren't like last edition's, so I'm okay not having one. If you can think of something unique and in-character, cool, but I don't really want ported-in and gender-flipped Space Marine units.
Regarding Penitent Engines, I've had moderate success using one in league. In 5 games, it's killed 1 Land Raider, and act which also caused it to die because the Land Raider exploded. However, it's also absorbed considerable firepower, so that's Dominions that aren't dying. For cost, I'd probably rather have Dominions, but I also want to have the 3 damage attacks on hand if I have to fight 'crons.
dracpanzer wrote: I struggle coming up with unit ideas that aren't just Sisters versions of existing units other armies already have.
Nihil sub sole novum.
That said, I have plenty of ideas-- I am nothing if not a font of creativity-- but I think wishlisting and tossing out ideas doesn't suit this thread.
Would it be alright for the thread to discuss where the sum of Sisters units fall short of any given tactical requirement, and from there possibly move on to discussing tactics for current units to use or even new unit ideas that might fill the gap?
I love Repentia who apart from Celestine and Ministorum units are supposed to be our close combat troops. Getting them into combat is usually quite the trick. With AoF not working on transports, and with them disrupting the Dominions vanguard move if you were to stick them in together. What options are there?
1. The Mistress is now a seperate unit, so on foot it would be difficult to use HotE to advance the entire Repentia/Mistress group before turn one and have the unit possibly assault turn two behind your Dominion rush.
2. Put them in a transport using an advance move turn one where they are easier to keep a Mistress with and possibly a priest for extra attacks or Imagifer for an extra AoF once they get stuck in, but still turn two at the earliest and probably if your Dominion rush has failed to nuke whatever was in front of it.
Give me a Sororitas rhino chasis that allows for disembark and assault after moving and I would gladly pay the current price for Repentia.
Currently I have been running my second Vanguard detachments Canoness in a vehicle with Celestians, Imagifer and three Repentia just to see how hard they hit. Celestians let the Canoness and Repentia go ahead and are around to absorb multi damage wounds to the Canoness. I have yet to have an opponent survive in the Dom rush area long enough for the Canoness and Repentia get stuck in.
So either they aren't worth taking at all, or they just need to be able to move faster.
But if so, the biggest sinner vis a vis equipment is Celestians. An assault unit with no assault gear. Not even BP+CCW. At the very least they should all be able to purchase power weapons and combi-weapons, but they can't. They're a unit in search of a purpose. Even their Bodyguard rule is both generic and useless, as we have no one that is worth protecting with such an expensive unit that actually needs protection to begin with.
Other than that, I wish Sisters had some better stuff to equip. GW has shown that you can have variations on bolt, melta, and flamer weaponry, so they should give us some love regarding that.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I'm half tempted just to do what petre (I think?) did, and just have a rhino with the raised Immolator bit and a heavy flamer with 2x storm bolters, and call it a repressor.
The stained-glass windows can pass as fire-points, and the fact that it's raised noticeably above the height of a rhino and looks different while lacking the turret of an immolator and also still having an IG dozer on the front would work, hm?
Don't forget the penitent psyker on the front to enhance the durability.
I don't have any. Does that ruin it?
No, but you need something else to make it different if you go my route.
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Melissia wrote: I think wishlisting and tossing out ideas doesn't suit this thread.
I'd like to discuss Celestians and the Canoness and why I think they are actually pretty decent.
Let's start with the Canoness. At just 45 points, she's one of the cheapest HQs in 8th ed, a game where you take 'HQ tax'. For that, you get:
- some very impressive stats - 2+ 2+ 3 3 5 4 9 3+
- 4++ Invulnerable save. She's not going anywhere easily.
- Awesome buff ability that helps almost everyone from Rets to Repentia.
- Seriously good supercharging Plasma platform. Extremely minimal risk of killing herself.
- At least three solid build options - Eviscerator beatstick, dakkaness or all-rounder (combi-weapon + power-weapon).
Yes the Eviscerator is sorely overpriced, especially next to the astartes' shiny new 12pt Power Fist. But it's still a potent vessel of destruction and in my games, some of the most fun moments have been tearing foes asunder with it. The humble Canoness will be oft underestimated by your opponent - on the off chance they can shoot at her they won't allocate enough to get through 5W and 4++. In combat they'll underestimate the damage she can deal. Or they'll be forced to overreach to remove her. And looking at the other Imperial HQs I would say she must be one of the most efficient for her points cost.
Which is great news for us, as unless you're running Sisters+friends you'll be taking two of them in a 2k list to head up your non-Celestine detachments. And this is where Celestians come in.
I see others describe them as 'as close combat unit without any close combat weapons', but I disagree. I believe they are best played as the new Sororitas Command Squad - not a close combat unit but a group of 'Sisters+1' who support and are supported by your Canoness(es) and Priests. For just 2ppm more than a humble Sister, you get +1WS, +1A, +1Ld, and the ability to take wounds for nearby <ORDER>characters.
Unless you're running blob-sisters (good luck ) the leadership buff is meh. But the other three really start to come alive when you run a unit of Celestians alongside 1-2 Canoness (expensive models you can take wounds for in a pinch, and who give you a reroll buff), a Priest (who gives everyone +1A), and an Adeptus Ministorum close combat unit (such as Arcos or DCA, who will be your main CC strike).
When fielded alongside these units, the Celestian Superior with a Power Axe becomes an unbelievably good 15pt model. 3 attacks base, +1 for priest and +1 for chainsword attack. That's as many attacks as a Canoness. Each other model will add 2+1 WS3+ attacks to the fray which will soon add up. Celestians are arguably the only unit in the index that can usefully benefit from both the Canoness' AND priest's buffs at the same time.
The bodyguard ability is incredibly situational for shooting but really comes alive in close combat where the Canoness is easily targeted by opponents in melee. Even just sacrificing a single Celestian to stop her losing her final wound can leave your 60-80pt model on the board to dish out another round of attacks and buffs.
Yes they won't hit as hard as Repentia or a Ministorum CC unit, but what you get instead is a more resilient unit (3+ save) that still hits well (with the superior hitting hard) but also is capable of some great buffed shooting along with special and heavy weapon access and a situationally awesome ability for a very respectable 11ppm. Alongside an all-round Canoness the unit is a great jack-of-all-trades. You'll have better, dedicated choices for CC and shooting, but the Celestians are flexiable but formidable IMO.
In my 2k list I have the following 'Command Squad' spread across two flamer Immolators:
IMMO 1
Canoness with Combi-Plasma and Power Axe
5 Celestians - Superior with Power Axe/Plasma Pistol/Chainsword, one sister with a Heavy Flamer
IMMO 2
Canoness with Eviscerator and Plasma Pistol
Priest with Bolt Pistol and Power Axe
2 Death Cult Assassins
When these units charge at the same target, I'm looking at a whopping 41 attacks, all with some kind of reroll, from the following:
13 x WS3+ (rerolling 1s) S3 D1 attacks from the Celestians (+superior chainsword)
4 x WS3+ (rerolling 1s) S4 AP-2 D1 attacks from the Celestian Superior
5 x WS2+ (rerolling 1s) S4 AP-2 D1 attacks from the Canoness
4 x WS4+ (rerolling all) S4 AP-2 D1 attacks from the Priest
10 x WS3+ (rerolling all) S4 AP-2 D1 attacks from the DCA 5x WS2+ (-1 to hit, rerolling 1s) S6 AP-4 D-D3 attacks from the Canoness
Also the groups inside each Immolator are each a capable force in their own right, not to mention reducing 5 deployment drops to 2. If I don't want to charge them all at the same thing, I'll drop the combi-plasma Canoness and Celestians off near the front lines to support the Dominions, Seraphim and whoever else is up at the front lines.
In conclusion, I believe that a small unit of Celestians is a great choice if you're running two Canoness and Priest, as there is a very good synergy between them where they each benefit from each other to form a formidable force that's both fun and fluffy.
Rubenite wrote: I'd like to discuss Celestians and the Canoness and why I think they are actually pretty decent.
I know a lot of players have dismissed the notion of a Canoness and Imagifer being a help to a Dominion rush, but loaded up like you suggest they are able to help after turn one. The Canoness buff, Celestian squad close by to soak wounds especially when they are multiple damage attacks. The Imagifer for extra AoF and whatever else you like thrown into an Immolator or two should provide some decent forward support as well as help cut down your drops in a bid for first turn.
It will be interesting to see if a dex (if....) does some nice things to our wargear costs. I like your ideas and have been continuing to experiment with the Canoness + Celestian combo.
I played several weeks ago with a list that didn't do as well as I had liked, so Ive changed the list around to optimize those elements that did well and still provide synergy to the rest of the force-
It seems to me to be an effective TAC list, any suggestions or ideas welcome.
Troops
5 BSS, Meltagun and Stormbolter
5 BSS, Meltagun and Stormbolter
5 BSS, Meltagun and Stormbolter
5 BSS, Meltagun and Stormbolter
5 BSS, Meltagun and Stormbolter
5 BSS, Meltagun and Stormbolter
Fast Attack
5 Doms- 2 MG, 2 SB, combiplasma, Immolator w Flamer and SB 5 Doms- 2 MG, 2 SB, combiplasma, Immolator w Flamer and SB 5 Doms- 2 MG, 2 SB, combiplasma, Immolator w Flamer and SB 5 Doms- 2 MG, 2 SB, combiplasma, Immolator w Flamer and SB 8 Seraphim- 2 with dual Inferno Pistols
Heavy Support
5 Retributors with 4 Heavy Bolters
5 Retributors with 4 Heavy Bolters
5 Retributors with 4 Heavy Bolters
5 Retributors with 4 Heavy Bolters
Basic strategy is:
Doms and Seraphim with Celestine charge forward in mutual support, taking advantage of Celestine's Beacon of Faith buff.
MSU Sisters (30) with combiplasma Canoness and 3 Astropaths push forward in support of the Celestine group.
Heavies set up a fire base with the Canoness reroll 1s buff.
Totals:
4 Immolators with Flamer
81 Sisters
3 Astropaths
16 Heavy Bolters
14 meltaguns
4 Inferno Pistols
14 stormbolters
5 combiplasmas
bolters and laspistols
It's nice to have 12 Command Points in the list. I think the list provides enough melta to deal with armor and high-T models, as well as enough dakka between the heavy bolters / Immolation Flamers / mass bolters to deal with hordes. The Astropaths can shut down some Psyker attempts, and Celestine can be a one-woman wrecking machine.
Thoughts?
Is there any way people can think of for Sisters to mitigate morale issues? I know MSU is the style right now, and now that the maximum unit size is 15 instead of 20 they are less blobby than they used to be anyways, but the idea of running big squads still appeals to me (making more efficient use of Acts of Faith is one bonus). But the morale issue is pretty bad - in a regular Sisters squad you need to kill 3 to make them have a chance to fail, being Ld8 with the superior.
That means that a good portion of a 15 girl squad will flee rather than dying to bullets as the game goes on. I am not certain how to mitigate this issue.
An Inquisitor can push it to 5 casualties, but doesn't do much else, isn't "pure sisters", and only does it in a small aura. In 7e Priests in the blobs would make them fight to the last but not anymore.
Jancoran wrote: Vanguard move is given to the rhino if they are in it. So the canoness can go with them.
Not if the canoness is in it too, apparently.
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Unit1126PLL wrote: Is there any way people can think of for Sisters to mitigate morale issues?
For pure Sisters, a Dialogous lets you reroll morale checks within 6" of her, She is 15 points, so fairly cheap, but she won't be adding to your firepower; she's a four-wound sister superior whose attacks in th fight phase count as S4 but otherwise has no weapon.
Dialogus' reroll is probably your best bet, paired with the inquisitor you can be reasonably assured the squad will hold together unless they are on the verge of being wiped out in one volley.
She sure can. She also happens to have a LD10 bubble and is a very strong source of Deny the Witch. She makes a pretty solid accompaniment to a Sisters squad on foot.
Melissia wrote: That's nice, but how does your canoness keep up after the Vanguard move?
Vanguard move is given to the rhino if they are in it. So the canoness can go with them.
Canoness blocks the vanguard move.
That's the problem with Imagifiers and Canonesses, and really all special characters.
As for morale, I haven't had a whole lot of morale problems. There aren't usually enough losses to cause major morale problems, or the squad has ceased to exist anyway.
Melissia wrote: That's nice, but how does your canoness keep up after the Vanguard move?
Have only tested it once. But the Canoness and her Celestians are intending to advance turn one in their Immolator up behind the Dom rush. Should put them in a spot to drop out if needed on turn rwo and start doing what they do.
May not be necessary depending on your Dominions alpha strike. But getting the Canoness close enough to put out her re-roll bubble, an additional chance at an AoF and consolidating a lot of drops into the Immolator or Repressor helps with first turn.
Celestine with a max Seraphim squad and a boatload of Doms is the way forward for sure. But if you are stacking up formations you have to do something to keep your drops down.
May as well try and get something out of it besides just another model hanging out with your Retributors. Still in the experimenting phase.
WRT drop reduction for Canonesses and Rets, I was thinking of just up and buying each Retributor team a Immolation Flamer Immolator, or perhaps a Repressor.
I'm not sure which. The Rets could stay inside the Repressor, but the Repressor won't be able to reach with its guns, and the Canoness is going to have to get out of it to buff them anyway. A Repressor is, however, cheaper than an Immolator. The rets would jump from the Immolator, along with the Canoness, into a nice piece of cover on turn 1, and the Immolator would take off to join the Dominions on the frontline. A Repressor wouldn't inflict them with the -1 to hit penalty on turn 1 since they can shoot out of it without it moving, but it's also relegated to being a platform for an H-K missile.
I played several weeks ago with a list that didn't do as well as I had liked, so Ive changed the list around to optimize those elements that did well and still provide synergy to the rest of the force-
It seems to me to be an effective TAC list, any suggestions or ideas welcome.
Troops
5 BSS, Meltagun and Stormbolter
5 BSS, Meltagun and Stormbolter
5 BSS, Meltagun and Stormbolter
5 BSS, Meltagun and Stormbolter
5 BSS, Meltagun and Stormbolter
5 BSS, Meltagun and Stormbolter
Fast Attack
5 Doms- 2 MG, 2 SB, combiplasma, Immolator w Flamer and SB 5 Doms- 2 MG, 2 SB, combiplasma, Immolator w Flamer and SB 5 Doms- 2 MG, 2 SB, combiplasma, Immolator w Flamer and SB 5 Doms- 2 MG, 2 SB, combiplasma, Immolator w Flamer and SB 8 Seraphim- 2 with dual Inferno Pistols
Heavy Support
5 Retributors with 4 Heavy Bolters
5 Retributors with 4 Heavy Bolters
5 Retributors with 4 Heavy Bolters
5 Retributors with 4 Heavy Bolters
Basic strategy is:
Doms and Seraphim with Celestine charge forward in mutual support, taking advantage of Celestine's Beacon of Faith buff.
MSU Sisters (30) with combiplasma Canoness and 3 Astropaths push forward in support of the Celestine group.
Heavies set up a fire base with the Canoness reroll 1s buff.
Totals:
4 Immolators with Flamer
81 Sisters
3 Astropaths
16 Heavy Bolters
14 meltaguns
4 Inferno Pistols
14 stormbolters
5 combiplasmas
bolters and laspistols
It's nice to have 12 Command Points in the list. I think the list provides enough melta to deal with armor and high-T models, as well as enough dakka between the heavy bolters / Immolation Flamers / mass bolters to deal with hordes. The Astropaths can shut down some Psyker attempts, and Celestine can be a one-woman wrecking machine.
Thoughts?
Damn, 21 drops is a lot of drops. I have 9, and I consider it too many!
I hate to ask this on this thread, but I noticed that GW had inventory in stock on Thursday for some Sisters models I wanted (specifically stormbolters and heavy bolters), then when I went to order them this morning (Friday) they were out of stock again. Also, I had checked on Wednesday and they hadn't been in stock on that day either, so the stock was up for just a day, if that.
Is this normal for GW with regards to Sisters? If so, how long might it be before they get them in stock again? I appreciate the feedback.
davidgr33n wrote: I hate to ask this on this thread, but I noticed that GW had inventory in stock on Thursday for some Sisters models I wanted (specifically stormbolters and heavy bolters), then when I went to order them this morning (Friday) they were out of stock again. Also, I had checked on Wednesday and they hadn't been in stock on that day either, so the stock was up for just a day, if that.
Is this normal for GW with regards to Sisters? If so, how long might it be before they get them in stock again? I appreciate the feedback.
Pretty much all of their stock is in fluctuation right now.
The speculation says that it is probably one (or both) of these things: Increased demand from a new edition and/or Reboxing models to include rules.
davidgr33n wrote: I hate to ask this on this thread, but I noticed that GW had inventory in stock on Thursday for some Sisters models I wanted (specifically stormbolters and heavy bolters), then when I went to order them this morning (Friday) they were out of stock again. Also, I had checked on Wednesday and they hadn't been in stock on that day either, so the stock was up for just a day, if that.
Is this normal for GW with regards to Sisters? If so, how long might it be before they get them in stock again? I appreciate the feedback.
I bought 10 HB sisters within 3 minutes of getting the email this time. Lots of demand right now.
davidgr33n wrote: I hate to ask this on this thread, but I noticed that GW had inventory in stock on Thursday for some Sisters models I wanted (specifically stormbolters and heavy bolters), then when I went to order them this morning (Friday) they were out of stock again. Also, I had checked on Wednesday and they hadn't been in stock on that day either, so the stock was up for just a day, if that.
Is this normal for GW with regards to Sisters? If so, how long might it be before they get them in stock again? I appreciate the feedback.
I bought 10 HB sisters within 3 minutes of getting the email this time. Lots of demand right now.
davidgr33n wrote: I hate to ask this on this thread, but I noticed that GW had inventory in stock on Thursday for some Sisters models I wanted (specifically stormbolters and heavy bolters), then when I went to order them this morning (Friday) they were out of stock again. Also, I had checked on Wednesday and they hadn't been in stock on that day either, so the stock was up for just a day, if that.
Is this normal for GW with regards to Sisters? If so, how long might it be before they get them in stock again? I appreciate the feedback.
Pretty much all of their stock is in fluctuation right now.
The speculation says that it is probably one (or both) of these things: Increased demand from a new edition and/or Reboxing models to include rules.
Ok, that's good to know, I hadn't noticed this was happening for all of the other factions as well.
davidgr33n wrote: I hate to ask this on this thread, but I noticed that GW had inventory in stock on Thursday for some Sisters models I wanted (specifically stormbolters and heavy bolters), then when I went to order them this morning (Friday) they were out of stock again. Also, I had checked on Wednesday and they hadn't been in stock on that day either, so the stock was up for just a day, if that.
Is this normal for GW with regards to Sisters? If so, how long might it be before they get them in stock again? I appreciate the feedback.
Yes.
Typically it's a few months to go back in stock, but they might re-stock them faster. I'm not sure.
deviantduck wrote: Well, I ordered an imagifer and a hospitaler on June 3rd and today i got a sororitas command squad. I'll chalk it up as a win.
Nicely done!
Was on the other side of the state today and dropped into a Warhammer store. Brought a 6 squad Dom (4 sb squads, 2 mg squads in 4 Repressors) with Celestine and 10 seraphim with uriah, imagifer, mistress and 7 repentia in the fifth repressor, PenEngine backing up the hb retributors in the 6th Repressor with an Imagifer on the flank. Opponent had Raven Guard with all Primaris characters and what looked like the starter box of primaris with a bunch of RGdevs and tacs in 3 rhinos. Might have been more than the starter, not sure. We played the kill point mission.
9 drops to his 11 or 12. Celestine and Seraphim AoF up to keep in line with the Doms. Opted to keep two SB Dom squads riding shotgun with melta Doms loaded up turn one and just shot what was close. Got first blood and took out three 5 strong squads of primaris and most of a dev squad turn one shooting. Celestine charged in and finished the remainder of a 10 strong riever(?) squad off.
His turn one he killed one Repressor but it took nearly every bit of shooting he had. Lost two Doms getting out. He charged the remainder. Along with hitting the Seraphim with a squad of bp/ccw reg marines and a Chaplain. His assaults were getting re-roll 1's on hit and wounds. Rhino assaulted Celestine. Lost two Doms but kept both of the bailed squads in tact. Seraphim failed just enough saves to wipe them out. Celestine took a wound but came within one wound of killing the rhino. RG player was happy she was tied up with nobody to pile into.
AoF at start of my turn to kill the rhino and free her up to cause some more havoc. Retributors and PenEngine wiped out a squad of primaris with grappling hooks(?). Dominions wiped out everything remaining on his left. Repentia with Uriah, Mistress and Imagifer disembarked at start of turn two and charged the marines in hth with the bailed Doms. Wiped them out easily. Celestine charged the reg bp/ccw marines and Chaplain, re-rolled her one miss and she wounded on all her attacks. Chaplain survived but his squad didn't.
RG player called it after the top of turn two, he had his Chaplain, two other Primaris characters, a rhino and one five man Dev squad left. Not sure on his list, I have yet to open my SM dex and I have no intention of getting Primaris for my own Raven Guard. Opponent did ask me if my list was casual or semi competitive. I told him they were about as competitive as I could make them with about 400 points of "lets try this out" (the Repentia, Uriah, Mistress and the PenEngine) thrown in. Don't think anyone there expected to see Sisters come out swnging like they do.
Yeah, a lot of people don't expect us to play as we do.
The whole "all my things Vanguard forward, and Celestine move 24"" thing really does surprise people, but they sort of shrug it off, then the sheer weight of firepower hits them.
The whole "all my things Vanguard forward, and Celestine move 24"" thing really does surprise people, but they sort of shrug it off, then the sheer weight of firepower hits them.
At this point I find that you do really have to try very hard to stifle the maniacal laugh.
Now, witness the firepower of these fully armed and operational Battle Sisters!
uriah, imagifer, mistress and 7 repentia in the fifth repressor
Worth noting that the Repressor can only transport <ORDER> infantry, whereas the Rhino and Immolator carry <ADEPTUS MINISTORUM>, meaning that unfortunately Uriah isn't allowed in there. But that loadout in a Rhino is a-ok!
Oddly enough, it means that the Hospitaler and Dialogus can't be transported in a Repressor either, as they hail from their own respective Ordos and do not have the <ORDER> keyword.
Unfortunately I do not think that you can. There was a similar situation where guard players wanted to give their officers the <MILITARUM AUXILLA> keyword so they could give orders to Ogryns etc., but the Index: Imperium 2 FAQ said that you couldn't do this.
Also, <HOSPITALLER> and <DIALOGUS> are unit keywords, not faction keywords (like <ORDER> is), so you really can't do this.
I've asked Forgeworld but I think they should consider restricting it to <ADEPTA SORORITAS> instead of <ORDER>, but if we ever get 'chapter tactics' then this could become an issue.
uriah, imagifer, mistress and 7 repentia in the fifth repressor
Worth noting that the Repressor can only transport <ORDER> infantry, whereas the Rhino and Immolator carry <ADEPTUS MINISTORUM>, meaning that unfortunately Uriah isn't allowed in there. But that loadout in a Rhino is a-ok!
Oddly enough, it means that the Hospitaler and Dialogus can't be transported in a Repressor either, as they hail from their own respective Ordos and do not have the <ORDER> keyword.
Thanks for pointing that out, hadn't occured to me when I was making my list up at the club. I'm happy at least that my mistake really had no effect on the final result. It does open up the door for wargear on a Canoness to go in Uriah's place with that list. Usually I stay away from more than just the cheapest wargear on characters.
No worries - good write-up and very satisfying to read!
I've posted this over in YMDC, but the wording of the 'Firing Ports' ability on the Repressor seems to suggest there could possibly be NO restrictions placed upon the embarked unit firing out. Read the rule very carefully and compare to say the Land Speed Storm or something with the 'Open-topped' ability.
It could potentially mean that units embarked in a Repressor can:
- Fire normally even if the Repressor advances (not just assault weapons, and no -1 to hit penalty for them either)
- Fire normally even if the Repressor falls back
- Fire normally even if there are enemies within 1" of the Repressor, not just pistols and not restricted to shooting the unit that is within 1".
What do you guys think? Seems OP and unfriendly but I'm struggling to get a clear alternative interpretation. The 'Open-topped' ability expressly states that any modifiers or restrictions that apply to the vehicle also apply to its embarked passengers, but no such statement is included in the Repressor's ability. Only the Heavy Weapon -1 to hit when moving is expressly mentioned. This is the same for the Baneblade variants that have Firing Decks.
It's perfectly legit and that's what I did at many events (big or small). I wouldn't be surprised if it gets nerfed sometimes along the way, but right now it's pretty strong and I'm happy about it =)
I had my first game this weekend with my foot sisters.
I hope my list is right:
1000Pts
Celestine with both geminae
Canoness
30 sisters with as many storm bolters as possible (in 3 squads of 10)
5 sisters with melta/combi-melta (in a Melta-Immolator)
5 seraphim
Imagifier
The game went very well. I played Dark Eldar, and the Wall 'O Bullets that the 30 sisters had was more than enough. Celestine booped their warlord, but it was really the ridiculous number of shots that they put out.
I most used my 2.5 acts of faith on movement to get the girls forwards / in position.
Rubenite wrote: No worries - good write-up and very satisfying to read!
I've posted this over in YMDC, but the wording of the 'Firing Ports' ability on the Repressor seems to suggest there could possibly be NO restrictions placed upon the embarked unit firing out. Read the rule very carefully and compare to say the Land Speed Storm or something with the 'Open-topped' ability.
It could potentially mean that units embarked in a Repressor can:
- Fire normally even if the Repressor advances (not just assault weapons, and no -1 to hit penalty for them either)
- Fire normally even if the Repressor falls back
- Fire normally even if there are enemies within 1" of the Repressor, not just pistols and not restricted to shooting the unit that is within 1".
What do you guys think? Seems OP and unfriendly but I'm struggling to get a clear alternative interpretation. The 'Open-topped' ability expressly states that any modifiers or restrictions that apply to the vehicle also apply to its embarked passengers, but no such statement is included in the Repressor's ability. Only the Heavy Weapon -1 to hit when moving is expressly mentioned. This is the same for the Baneblade variants that have Firing Decks.
That's how I've been playing it as well. There are no rule contradictions.
. We don't have silly names for the Chaos ones, but that's also because, until now, Chaos Space Marine Legions didn't have their own books.
