To me it seems like dakka as a whole has been pretty stale the last couple months. Is that a comment on 8th or just a natural lull?
On a tactics related note. I have 2 Xiphons on order. I'm going to run a small patrol of ravenguard with my sisters.
A techmarine, Scouts, and 2 Xiphons. I think it will be an ideal long range compliment to my Repressor doms, celestine, seraphim, and retributors.
The Xipons are the same stats as a las pred, but for 10 more points you get their awesome missile launcher, you get to hit models with fly on a 2+ instead of 3+, and -2 to hit them back with ravenguard. I think they'll come in handy as character snipers since they can move 50".
I think part of it is the rapid fire releases. People are busy trying to digest what's come out, but it's been fast enough that it's been staying inside just a few threads.
I'd be down with a rumormongering and wishlisting thread over in the GD forum. Tactics is for tactics and list feedback... I'm working on a tankless all-infantry list once I count up my boltgun sisters, so stay tuned.
Edit: I've posted a new Brigade list in the Army Lists forum; link in my sig.
In a nutshell, I dropped Exorcist, P-Engine, and 3 Immolators to bring nearly 100 suits of cheap power armor to slog up the table carrying almost every heavy and special weapon in my collection. 2 Canonesses, 3 Imagifiers, and a Priest to scatter around. Only the 4 units of Dominions get 2 Rhinos to cross the table in; everything else walks... except for Celestine and a unit of Inferno Seraphim.
Has anyone tried this build? Is this horde Sisters? It's a lot of BS 3+ S4 shooting with 3+ saves deployed in long, thin layers for board control and maximized radius buffs.
The Xipons are the same stats as a las pred, but for 10 more points you get their awesome missile launcher, you get to hit models with fly on a 2+ instead of 3+, and -2 to hit them back with ravenguard. I think they'll come in handy as character snipers since they can move 50".
Raven guard and Sisters mixed are fantastic. However Marine tanks (other than dreads) don't get chapter tactics. I would try out Raven Guard Aggressors, rumored point decrease or not, they are really good. I've also wanted to try out Xipons for awhile now but just haven't put the money toward it yet. Let us know how they do for you!
MacPhail wrote: I'd be down with a rumormongering and wishlisting thread over in the GD forum. Tactics is for tactics and list feedback... I'm working on a tankless all-infantry list once I count up my boltgun sisters, so stay tuned.
Edit: I've posted a new Brigade list in the Army Lists forum; link in my sig.
In a nutshell, I dropped Exorcist, P-Engine, and 3 Immolators to bring nearly 100 suits of cheap power armor to slog up the table carrying almost every heavy and special weapon in my collection. 2 Canonesses, 3 Imagifiers, and a Priest to scatter around. Only the 4 units of Dominions get 2 Rhinos to cross the table in; everything else walks... except for Celestine and a unit of Inferno Seraphim.
Has anyone tried this build? Is this horde Sisters? It's a lot of BS 3+ S4 shooting with 3+ saves deployed in long, thin layers for board control and maximized radius buffs.
I actually play foot sisters. Without Fearless, I've found that large PA units have morale trouble (used to run 3 20 girl blobs with a priest for Fearless. Tried 4 15, not good either. 6 10 girl squads are fairly good but still suffer a bit from morale).
I actually play foot sisters. Without Fearless, I've found that large PA units have morale trouble (used to run 3 20 girl blobs with a priest for Fearless. Tried 4 15, not good either. 6 10 girl squads are fairly good but still suffer a bit from morale).
That's reassuring. I think i agree on 10 as a nice point of balance. Do you mix squad loadouts knowing you won't have as much control over matchup or go all on on certain specials?
I'm leaning toward staying focused. Right now I have 2 squads of 10 with flamer/flamer/combi-flamer, and 2 squads of triple stormbolters. My deployment notion is this: 10-strong units form a shallow X across midfield deployment zone. Flamers on the upper arms of the X, stormbolters on the lower arms. At the nexus of all four arms is a Canoness (inferno pistol and power sword), priest, and Imagifier to maximize versatility with auras. Flamers get into range, take a charge, then fall back through the stormbolters, who open up when the flamers clear melee.
I actually play foot sisters. Without Fearless, I've found that large PA units have morale trouble (used to run 3 20 girl blobs with a priest for Fearless. Tried 4 15, not good either. 6 10 girl squads are fairly good but still suffer a bit from morale).
That's reassuring. I think i agree on 10 as a nice point of balance. Do you mix squad loadouts knowing you won't have as much control over matchup or go all on on certain specials?
I'm leaning toward staying focused. Right now I have 2 squads of 10 with flamer/flamer/combi-flamer, and 2 squads of triple stormbolters. My deployment notion is this: 10-strong units form a shallow X across midfield deployment zone. Flamers on the upper arms of the X, stormbolters on the lower arms. At the nexus of all four arms is a Canoness (inferno pistol and power sword), priest, and Imagifier to maximize versatility with auras. Flamers get into range, take a charge, then fall back through the stormbolters, who open up when the flamers clear melee.
I stay focused.
5 of my 6 girl squads have triple storm bolter, and the 6th has multi-melta/meltagun. The former 5 are for bounding up the field like madwomen trying to get in range. I have 2 five-girl dominion squads too, as well a 10 Seraphim. The HQs are Celestine and two Canonesses, and the Heavy Support are 3 Retributor Squads. Elites are 1 Celestians (yes, I know) and 2 Imagifiers (yes, I also know).
The plan is to deploy the "Assault blob" (the 5 stormbolter squads) along the axis of advance, all blobbed up around one Canoness, one Imagifier, and the Celestians in the middle.
On one flank goes the Heavy Bolter Retributors with one Imagifier and one Canoness.
On the other flank goes the walking Melta squad (this is the deliberately weak flank, and the squad is deployed more back and center than truly on the flank - it is my insurance against things like flyers, though it's not my best!
Celestine, her Seraphim retinue, and the Dominion squads are deployed where they need.
And that's the general layout of my foot Sororitas brigade.
The Xipons are the same stats as a las pred, but for 10 more points you get their awesome missile launcher, you get to hit models with fly on a 2+ instead of 3+, and -2 to hit them back with ravenguard. I think they'll come in handy as character snipers since they can move 50".
Raven guard and Sisters mixed are fantastic. However Marine tanks (other than dreads) don't get chapter tactics. I would try out Raven Guard Aggressors, rumored point decrease or not, they are really good. I've also wanted to try out Xipons for awhile now but just haven't put the money toward it yet. Let us know how they do for you!
Poop. you're right, only infantry, bikers, and dreadnoughts get chapter tactics. I didn't notice the column on the left of the page. Welp, I can drop the techmarine and scouts then. That'll free up room for more sisters.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PanzerLeader wrote: I just finished 3rd at Pittsburgh GT with horde sisters. I’ll post list and a quick run down of games tomorrow
And that's the general layout of my foot Sororitas brigade.
Very cool, and similar to what I'm messing with. A couple of questions...
Any trouble with consolidation moves dragging your whole storm bolter blob into melee? A charging opponent would only need to survive 30 bolter shots to engage one unit and then survive the fight phase to get two or more additional units wrapped up for a turn. I can think of plenry of fast moving units who will have no trouble there. Is this a problem? I'm looking at how to leave a gap too big for consolidation between the flamers up front and the stormbolters in the rear while still keeping everyone close to the Canoness, Imagifiers, and priest.
Also, do you screen your retributers? I'm using the last two of my six Troops for that (2×10 with max stormbolters, 2x10 with max flamers, and 2x5 with no upgrades). Does that one melta BSS unit spread thin around the Rets serve to make a charge extra dangerous? I'm thinking that rather than try to actually do damage they just need to keep deep strikers off my back.
I only own two units of HB Rets, so my third unit is footslogging heavy flamers. I've had mixed luck with them as a mech unit, but now they have a long hike... thinking about trading them for a penitent engine. Thoughts?
No. I sometimes bring a Ministorum Priest if I am worried about that, and the ~90 odd attacks they have to endure in retaliation often dissuades people from drawing in too many squads - plus, if they weren't engaged, the next turn, my Canoness and Celestians charge in for another ~16 attacks from the Celestians and ~6 from the Canoness. Believe it or not, weight of dice from the storm-bolter blob is almost as good in melee as it is in shooting.
What's worse is if they don't engage multiple units, then the unit that was engaged Falls Back with it's AOF and can still shoot them to pieces with the rest of the huge blob.
I don't use flamers at all; too expensive.
I do not screen my rets often - deployed in cover with a 2+ save, they take significant effort to remove (i.e. a large scion drop or something) disproportionate to their points cost, and with the Canoness there, unless they drop something REALLY scary (and expensive, like terminators) they're basically dooming whatever it is to a slow death by power sword / eviscerator. If people really want to dedicate that kind of firepower to killing heavy bolters then sure - that's just more sisters in my blob that are making it up the field.
The canoness and seraphim superior received power swords because lists were due for early submission and I couldn't think of anything else to spend my last 10 points on that would be WYSIWYG and not require finding bits. The lone rhino is for flagellant protection. The salamander captain gets Teeth of Terra to be another melee threat. The missions were all a primary worth 16 BP, a maelstrom using the decks were you simply kept what you scored up to a max of 9 and a mix of assorted tertiaries.
I ended up playing a good mix of lists. Game one I played Grey Knights with Draigo, Dreadknight Chapter Master, four razorbacks (2 assault cannon, 2 lascannon), two storm ravens and four strike squads. He won the roll to go first and between my BSS screen pushing the strikes back and some deployment between LOS blocking walls (we played ITC all first floors of ruins fully block LOS) he only managed to knock out one devastator squad. I killed a raven and a half between devs, HBs and smites while the seraphim and Celestine assaulted the two razorbacks that had advanced with assault cannons to take out their shooting. Turn one ended up seeing a lot of his firepower heavily negated and I went on to win with 31 out of 32 BP. Draigo survived until the bottom of five with a single wound left, denying me warlord.
Game two I played demons with two heldrakes, renegade knight, two demon princes, 12 hounds, 8 seekers, 40 demonettes and some blood letters. The mission was kill points with units worth points equal to their power level. He wasn't able to crack my screen efficiently (I had two BSS squads up, with the third behind them and no gaps to move between models) so I was able to kill everything except a unit of demonettes in his backfield on a maelstrom objective by the end of turn 3. He wasn't anticipating my ability to out melee him with the flagellents, Celestine and the marine captain when I needed to and Hector Rex is a big demon killing machine. Won with all 32 BP.
Game three I played drop scions supported by a knight in a progressive objective mission. It was hammer and anvil and we each had 3 objectives in our zone. I sacrificed Celestine and the seraphim on turn two to finish killing his knight and steal an objective for the turn, making it hard for him to come back on the primary. I was able to keep my BSS screen up until turn 3, forcing him to drop into no man's land far away from the objectives. Won with 30 out of 32 BP, having only scored 8 maelstrom with some bad draws and missing first strike after choosing to focus on degrading the knight.
Game four I played chaos with fire raptor, obliterators, berserkers, noise marines, whirlwind Scorpius, Ahriman, demon prince, 30 brims, 30 cultists and some other assorted characters. It was old school victory points for the primary. I ended up losing because Celestine charged the fire raptor with 3 wounds remaining and only wounded once. The surviving raptor then benefited from prescience and warp time to manage to kill two devastator squads on the bottom of five for a 500+ point swing (I missed the remaining 211 on the raptor and it scored him 330 points). Lost the game but managed to eek out 20 BP, scoring everything I could except warlord and line breaker.
Game five I played orcs in four objective crusade. His list was 3x 30 boys, 30 storm boys, 5 weird boys, zhardsnark, 4 nob bikers, 2 super skorchers, 5 mek guns and a KFF mek. It was a brutal back and forth game, with a turn one storm boy charge tieing up two of my screening units and one of the rets and the super skorchers are nasty at 4d6 S5, -2 hits per track. I ended up holding the line thanks to some timely acts of faith (I gave my locked in combat units a shooting phase to get extra rounds of bolt pistol fire) and the flagellants murdering two of the boy mobs that came forward (including the last group of ~20 survivors who could have won the game for him. Ended up with 32 battle points.
Finished 4-1 with enough battle points to place 3rd.
Some of the big points:
-I really liked having the 33 battle sister screen, but I think I need a few more bodies. Moral isn't an issue with the inquisitor around and a few more bases to block out assaults would have been clutch (especially in dawn of war against the orcs were I just ran out of table space to create depth).
-Consistently not having the +1 to go first wasn't a problem. Infantry are so easy to get cover for on the units that need it.
-I need to make a decision on the marine allies. The salamander devs are so good, but I'd really like some high quality shots at 72" which means looking at AM.
-Its not fluffy, but you absolutely need some mortal wound sources this edition and the supreme command detachment was great at it.
The canoness and seraphim superior received power swords because lists were due for early submission and I couldn't think of anything else to spend my last 10 points on that would be WYSIWYG and not require finding bits. The lone rhino is for flagellant protection. The salamander captain gets Teeth of Terra to be another melee threat. The missions were all a primary worth 16 BP, a maelstrom using the decks were you simply kept what you scored up to a max of 9 and a mix of assorted tertiaries.
I ended up playing a good mix of lists. Game one I played Grey Knights with Draigo, Dreadknight Chapter Master, four razorbacks (2 assault cannon, 2 lascannon), two storm ravens and four strike squads. He won the roll to go first and between my BSS screen pushing the strikes back and some deployment between LOS blocking walls (we played ITC all first floors of ruins fully block LOS) he only managed to knock out one devastator squad. I killed a raven and a half between devs, HBs and smites while the seraphim and Celestine assaulted the two razorbacks that had advanced with assault cannons to take out their shooting. Turn one ended up seeing a lot of his firepower heavily negated and I went on to win with 31 out of 32 BP. Draigo survived until the bottom of five with a single wound left, denying me warlord.
Game two I played demons with two heldrakes, renegade knight, two demon princes, 12 hounds, 8 seekers, 40 demonettes and some blood letters. The mission was kill points with units worth points equal to their power level. He wasn't able to crack my screen efficiently (I had two BSS squads up, with the third behind them and no gaps to move between models) so I was able to kill everything except a unit of demonettes in his backfield on a maelstrom objective by the end of turn 3. He wasn't anticipating my ability to out melee him with the flagellents, Celestine and the marine captain when I needed to and Hector Rex is a big demon killing machine. Won with all 32 BP.
Game three I played drop scions supported by a knight in a progressive objective mission. It was hammer and anvil and we each had 3 objectives in our zone. I sacrificed Celestine and the seraphim on turn two to finish killing his knight and steal an objective for the turn, making it hard for him to come back on the primary. I was able to keep my BSS screen up until turn 3, forcing him to drop into no man's land far away from the objectives. Won with 30 out of 32 BP, having only scored 8 maelstrom with some bad draws and missing first strike after choosing to focus on degrading the knight.
Game four I played chaos with fire raptor, obliterators, berserkers, noise marines, whirlwind Scorpius, Ahriman, demon prince, 30 brims, 30 cultists and some other assorted characters. It was old school victory points for the primary. I ended up losing because Celestine charged the fire raptor with 3 wounds remaining and only wounded once. The surviving raptor then benefited from prescience and warp time to manage to kill two devastator squads on the bottom of five for a 500+ point swing (I missed the remaining 211 on the raptor and it scored him 330 points). Lost the game but managed to eek out 20 BP, scoring everything I could except warlord and line breaker.
Game five I played orcs in four objective crusade. His list was 3x 30 boys, 30 storm boys, 5 weird boys, zhardsnark, 4 nob bikers, 2 super skorchers, 5 mek guns and a KFF mek. It was a brutal back and forth game, with a turn one storm boy charge tieing up two of my screening units and one of the rets and the super skorchers are nasty at 4d6 S5, -2 hits per track. I ended up holding the line thanks to some timely acts of faith (I gave my locked in combat units a shooting phase to get extra rounds of bolt pistol fire) and the flagellants murdering two of the boy mobs that came forward (including the last group of ~20 survivors who could have won the game for him. Ended up with 32 battle points.
Finished 4-1 with enough battle points to place 3rd.
Some of the big points:
-I really liked having the 33 battle sister screen, but I think I need a few more bodies. Moral isn't an issue with the inquisitor around and a few more bases to block out assaults would have been clutch (especially in dawn of war against the orcs were I just ran out of table space to create depth).
-Consistently not having the +1 to go first wasn't a problem. Infantry are so easy to get cover for on the units that need it.
-I need to make a decision on the marine allies. The salamander devs are so good, but I'd really like some high quality shots at 72" which means looking at AM.
-Its not fluffy, but you absolutely need some mortal wound sources this edition and the supreme command detachment was great at it.
Great Job Mike!
I've been running a more pure sisters version of your list since BFS. I've been liking it. AM would be better for the heavy shooting in both your list and mine, but maybe we will see a points adjustment in a month or so that will help us stay more pure soon?
you may also want to split the BSS into 5 man units and then add 3 units of dominions to help give you more territory for screening. It does wonders.
My version
Spoiler:
HQ celestine 150
HQ cannoness, power sword/bp 49
HQ cannoness, storm bolter 47
Troops 5 sisters with bolters, condemnor 46
Troops 5 sisters with bolters, condemnor 46
Troops 5 sisters with bolters, condemnor 46
Troops 5 sisters with bolters 45
Troops 5 sisters with bolters 45
Troops 5 sisters with bolters 45
Elite imagrifier 40
Elite imagrifier 40
Elite imagrifier 40
Fast 5 dominions with bolters 50
Fast 5 dominions with bolters 50
Fast 5 dominions with bolters 50
fast 5 seraphim with 2 models with 2 melta 103
fast 5 seraphim with 2 models with 2 melta 103
Heavy 5 retributors with 4 heavy bolters 85
Heavy 5 retributors with 4 heavy bolters 85
Heavy exorcist, hk 166
Heavy exorcist, hk 166
Heavy exorcist, hk 166
Heavy exorcist, hk 166
HQ hereticus inquisitor with storm bolter 57
HQ hereticus inquisitor with storm bolter 57
HQ hereticus inquisitor with storm bolter 57
@frgsinwntr: I like that variant. It seems really solid and looks like a great pure sisters mix. I'm torn on the smaller squads versus the larger ones because of how efficient acts of faith get but it looks like you mitigate that risk by having the possibility of 5. I'm hoping points on the exorcist go down and the damage becomes a straight 2 or 3. The d3 damage for the points makes it very marginal right now. Have you been using all 12 CP regularly?
Unit1126PLL wrote: What's worse is if they don't engage multiple units, then the unit that was engaged Falls Back with it's AOF and can still shoot them to pieces with the rest of the huge blob.
I don't think you can shoot if you Fall Back via AOF. Still, these are all good points.
Unit1126PLL wrote: What's worse is if they don't engage multiple units, then the unit that was engaged Falls Back with it's AOF and can still shoot them to pieces with the rest of the huge blob.
I don't think you can shoot if you Fall Back via AOF. Still, these are all good points.
Ah, you're right! My playgroup has been doing it where you only can't shoot if you fall back in the Movement Phase, but the game rules actually have no such restrictions. I'll tell them when I see them!
But yes, in that case, the rest of the huge blob can still shoot - one unit, likely damaged by the Fight Phase engagement that made them fall back, is no GREAT loss.
davidgr33n wrote: If Repressors go up in points will they still be top tier units for us? I guess it depends on points increase as well.
My lists are pretty heavy with minimal 6 Repressors carrying Dominions.
As long as they have fire points they'll be pretty good even if they go up in a points a bit. I'm more concerned with them losing their ability to fire out if the vehicle is engaged in combat. They might get limited to pistols like Ork trucks.
davidgr33n wrote: If Repressors go up in points will they still be top tier units for us? I guess it depends on points increase as well.
My lists are pretty heavy with minimal 6 Repressors carrying Dominions.
As long as they have fire points they'll be pretty good even if they go up in a points a bit. I'm more concerned with them losing their ability to fire out if the vehicle is engaged in combat. They might get limited to pistols like Ork trucks.
Are we still talking about Chapter Approved updates? I would think FW would handle their own points revisions unless we've heard otherwise...
@PanzerLeader: Great summary, and congrats. For my part, 12 CP have been great, and even better with CA strategems (maybe) on the way.
@Unit: thanks for the detailed rrsponse... that's exactly how and why I'm trying to layer my flamer and storm bolter squads as they move up the table.
@frogsinwinter: curious where you find most of your offensive punch, seeing that you've gone without many special weapon selections. Do the bolters do much, or is it mainly Exos, Celestine, Smite, and Inferno Seraphim?
@panzerleader, I agree. The exorcists need straight 2/3 dmg, or need to fire 2d6 shots.... and yes... I am finding that i use all 12 cps!
@MacPhail, most of the offense comes from heavy bolters double shooting from the imagrifiers or the 4 exorcists with hunter killers.... the goal is to win on mission however... and that doesn't require tons of firepower.... But vs aggressive opponents the inquisitors smite ftw... and the seraphim problem solve with their meltas.
So just on topic of the FW Chapter Approved Rumor:
When I was at Nova, I met Pete Foley, and had 3 Stormhammer tanks. He liked the look of my army and told me so, which apparently was permission to chat a bit. We talked about Codex: IG, but the topic of Forge World came up (because my army was like ~90% Forge World) and he affirmed to me that some updates for the Forge World stuff was coming in Chapter Approved.
He may have just said that to appease my questioning of course, but I'm fairly certain that's where I heard it first (and I don't even think I started this rumor).
When I was at Nova, I met Pete Foley, and had 3 Stormhammer tanks. He liked the look of my army and told me so, which apparently was permission to chat a bit. We talked about Codex: IG, but the topic of Forge World came up (because my army was like ~90% Forge World) and he affirmed to me that some updates for the Forge World stuff was coming in Chapter Approved.
He may have just said that to appease my questioning of course, but I'm fairly certain that's where I heard it first (and I don't even think I started this rumor).
When I was at Nova, I met Pete Foley, and had 3 Stormhammer tanks. He liked the look of my army and told me so, which apparently was permission to chat a bit. We talked about Codex: IG, but the topic of Forge World came up (because my army was like ~90% Forge World) and he affirmed to me that some updates for the Forge World stuff was coming in Chapter Approved.
He may have just said that to appease my questioning of course, but I'm fairly certain that's where I heard it first (and I don't even think I started this rumor).
You might want to bring that to the CA thread.
I dun care that much, and honestly I'm afraid of being wrong. I don't want to get people's hopes up and then have been lied to / have a faulty memory (because then I get accused of lying! D.
So, I had a small game against Tyranids and I was wondering if we think their Codex changes our TAC lists and how we build against them. Is it worth taking 3x Penitent Engine or swaping a Repressor/s for an Immolator/s? Why don't we have snipers? Do we just not bother?
Lammia wrote: So, I had a small game against Tyranids and I was wondering if we think their Codex changes our TAC lists and how we build against them. Is it worth taking 3x Penitent Engine or swaping a Repressor/s for an Immolator/s? Why don't we have snipers? Do we just not bother?
What was your experience that led you to those specific considerations? I haven't played against them yet, but at a glance it looks sketchy. Seems like they got better access to invulnerable saves vs. our melta spam, and some very cool faction boosts to swarm lists, and as you point out, a sniperless army will be less able to exploit synapse. So it looks like greater challenges for us whether facing nidzilla or the gribbly farm, but maybe thats just index vs. codex.
I'm having some issues with psychers. I was wondering how Greyfax works with an otherwise all sisters army. Is she worth it, or should I stick with IG psychers?
Mmmpi wrote: I'm having some issues with psychers. I was wondering how Greyfax works with an otherwise all sisters army. Is she worth it, or should I stick with IG psychers?
Lammia wrote: So, I had a small game against Tyranids and I was wondering if we think their Codex changes our TAC lists and how we build against them. Is it worth taking 3x Penitent Engine or swaping a Repressor/s for an Immolator/s? Why don't we have snipers? Do we just not bother?
I don't know about Penitent Engines. I brought one in every game I played, and I'm not entirely convinced of it's utility. It's not fast enough to be a threat.
Lammia wrote: So, I had a small game against Tyranids and I was wondering if we think their Codex changes our TAC lists and how we build against them. Is it worth taking 3x Penitent Engine or swaping a Repressor/s for an Immolator/s? Why don't we have snipers? Do we just not bother?
What was your experience that led you to those specific considerations? I haven't played against them yet, but at a glance it looks sketchy. Seems like they got better access to invulnerable saves vs. our melta spam, and some very cool faction boosts to swarm lists, and as you point out, a sniperless army will be less able to exploit synapse. So it looks like greater challenges for us whether facing nidzilla or the gribbly farm, but maybe thats just index vs. codex.
It was a lot of things, the player's casual concern about flamers, the general proliferation of -1s+ to hit, the hordes ability to completely surround and destroy a vehicle, and the 'proper' range of the Immolation Flamer. I know some here have had success with a couple of Immolators being used as screens rather then a couple of Repressors used as metal boxes and it feels like it would be better to have that adaptabilty. The two things I would note about that list in particular is the importance of the broodlord to the army and the fact that the two point increase on Genestealers didn't negatively affect it's pre-codex effectiveness.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Lammia wrote: So, I had a small game against Tyranids and I was wondering if we think their Codex changes our TAC lists and how we build against them. Is it worth taking 3x Penitent Engine or swaping a Repressor/s for an Immolator/s? Why don't we have snipers? Do we just not bother?
I don't know about Penitent Engines. I brought one in every game I played, and I'm not entirely convinced of it's utility. It's not fast enough to be a threat.
Winterwar was great! Definitely got the bug to go to more tournaments. Especially if they're 1 day events, not sure if i could cope with a 2 day event.
Played 3 games and went 1 for 2 which was the result I had kinda expected for my first singles tournament. The event was scored by primary score difference and secondary objectives for tie breaks, it was supposed to be also points value killed as well but it seemed that a lot of people weren't able to cope with working that out.
My list
Spoiler:
+++ According to this... YOU'RE A HERETIC! [1999pts] +++
Knight Crusader: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer, Heavy stubber , Questor
Mechanicus, Stormspear rocket pod , Thermal cannon , Titanic feet
Game 1
Spoiler:
First game Vs Necrons. Dawn of war The mission was 6 objectives worth 1 point at the start of each turn. Secondaries were worth 1 point each, slay the warlord, remove their support (the side that killed the most fast/elite/heavy), Survival( the side with the most units left). I lost but it felt like a very close game the whole way through and i made a few silly mistakes which cost me a few points. I was so nervous at the start of the day i don't remember much about this game. We timed out before we finished the game once we totaled it up the difference was 3 points giving the necrons 13 points with 0 secondaries and i scored 7 points with 2 secondaries. MVP was the Knight Crusader who did was mowing down stuff all game with it's avenger gatling cannon and took a random potshot at the annihilation barge at the end of the game and just one shot it with the thermal cannon and stormspear. I made a few mistakes which cost me some points, I forgot to cap a few objectives with open units and i know i missed at least 2 points. maybe even 3 points which would have tied the game and given me the win on secondaries.
Game 2
Spoiler:
Second game Vs Dark angels. Search and destroy (quarters with the 9" circle in the middle) the mission was 4 objectives worth 3 points at the end of the game secondaries were, marked for death (pick a unit after the setup and it's worth 1vp if killed), chain of command (kill the most characters), attrition(kill the most units) This felt like my hardest game of the day, the guy was castled up behind a line of razor backs with a -1 to hit, 4++ and reroll 1s buff aura. oh my god that was a tough nut to crack, my knight and a unit of dominions took 2 wounds off of the -1 to hit aura land speeder thing and i had nothing else shooty in range to kill it. so changing plans i managed to pop open the razor back directly in front of the buff characters and managed to get the charge off with seraphim and celestine. Took longer than it really should have to kill off all the buff but i did eventually get them all. I Totally fethed up and forgot to bring my assassins in on turn 1 to tie up some of the dev squads and i lost my knight on turn two at which point i thought the game was all but over. I managed to hold it together though and capped both the objectives in his deployment and one in my own at the end of the game. Finished the game with a difference of 9 for a score of 19-1 to me. I swept the secondaries 3-0 as well. Honestly felt like my hardest game but the most one sided score. MVP was the seraphim. This is the only game they have ever survived the whole game and those girls just carried so hard locking things in combat and going to town with inferno pistols. I think his mistake was deploying on the line. if he'd deployed back a bit so that it took me longer to get in his face, or at least fail the turn 1 charge I think he'd have gubbed me. He was a good guy though and the banter was decent so thumbs up. The only guy i played who i didn't already kinda know.
Game 3
Spoiler:
Third game Vs chaos slaanesh flavored things. vanguard. The Mission was standard maelstrom out the book. 6 objectives. 3 cards. Secondaries, slay the warlord, line breaker, first blood At this point of the day my brain has turned off and i've turned into some sort of 40k savant. I this isn't a game any more, this is a dance of dice rolls and tape measures. I'm not playing the game. I am the game! and my army is an extension of will! Lots of oblits deployed in deepstrike as the first deployments, so after putting my assassins into deepstrike i my knight 9" from my corner and zoned out my deployment with my troops and the rest of my list. I got first turn and after vanguard, AoF and movement i'd managed to zone out almost half the table from DS apart from a small patch in my back corner behind two troops which were zoning out charge range on my knight. At the end of my first turn of shooting and assaults i had given my opponent a very bloody nose. A unit of oblits and a chaos psyker thin with wings come down in my back corner and the other oblits come down in other tactical places. My Culexus debuff zone shut down the other 2 psykers so well that he didn't get any powers off with them and i didn't need to roll any deny the witch rolls with greyfax. Turn 2 the knight turns around and unloads on the the stuff in my back corner then charges in to dance on them with happy feet. sadly it doesn't manage to clear it up in 1 turn due to buffs but is enough to make the demon thingy move out of position and take a thermal cannon to the back of the head in the next turn and do a happy dance on the now unbuffed oblits. meanwhile the rest of my army is pushing up the past the half way point on the table and i control almost a 4'x4' swathe of the board. We had both had the worst card draw in the history of maelstrom games. I scored 1 card on turn one and that was it. My turn 2 draw was awful, i was stuck with a defend card that i'd been shot off of on turn 1, defend another objective that he was camping and a card control all the objectives. His draw wasn't much better kill things that were becoming unkillable, my psykers who were standing behind the culexus (with his you can only hit me on 6s and i have a 4++ invul) who was standing behind a repressor full of dominions, who were all sitting in the middle of the table blocking his card to have no ememy units in the middle of the table. He did draw a card to kill something with <FLY> and swatted my seraphim and picked up a card from a unit failing moral( i rolled a 6 and one died...:ermm: ). The final score for cards were 3-1 to him giving us a difference of 2 and a score of 12-8 to him and secondaries were 3-1 to me, couldn't stop him getting line breaker. Honestly this game felt very one sided in my favor but i just didn't have the card draw to get my score going. MVP was the culexus assassin, -2 to harness the warp effectively shut down his psykic phase and made those unbuffed beasties easy killing. Not a huge amount i could have done differently in this game due to the worst card draw in the history of card draw.
Over all I made a few mistakes and I cost myself a few points in game 1 and 3. Forgetting to bring in my assassins on turn 1 in game 2 to lock down some of the shooting definitely cost me my knight but I managed to scrape through for a solid win. Every game I killed more points worth of stuff than I lost. but got pipped to the post by a narrow margin. My list feels solid and I think it's going to be my go to for competitive games. I don't think i'm going to change anything, but I do have 1 point left over so i might just have to convert the one sister superior i have listed with no upgrades to have a condemnor bolt gun just for a nice round 2000 points. MVP of the day was the Callidus assassin. That lady, although not having a huge impact per game, burnt so many command points over the course of the day. 100% worth! Much Value! My final position in the tournament was 13th out of 42, which puts me... above average?
Mmmpi wrote: I'm having some issues with psychers. I was wondering how Greyfax works with an otherwise all sisters army. Is she worth it, or should I stick with IG psychers?
What kind of issues? Have you tried a culexus?
My main issue is that I didn't add any psykic defense to my army. My current main opponent is new, and his use of a DA librarian came as a surprise, mostly because I didn't know he had one (I've been helping him build his physical army). He used it well, leaving him in a position to have probably won our first game (we ended early due to time).
What I want is something that is:
A: not overpowering, something that will help me with psychic defense, but won't become the whole focus for the game, or just flat out dominate.
B: Is Fluffy. Since most of our games are going to be with index armies, in smaller at home matches, I'm looking for something that fits a story, or army theme.
So, A culexus is cool. Would work with sisters. But I don't know how hard a new player would have to deal with it. Plus I don't have one.
IG Psykers are reletivly inexpense, and bare bones, but their powers don't work on my sisters. Plus the whole fluff of working with witches thing. Power-wise seem the best option.
Greyfax: In fluff, an ordo hereticus, so sisters will sign all their letters to her with hearts over the 'I's. Her powers work on everything in my army, and she's tougher to kill then the IG space wizards. I don't think she's an overpowered choice, but I've never used her in 8th.
Greyfax: In fluff, an ordo hereticus, so sisters will sign all their letters to her with hearts over the 'I's. Her powers work on everything in my army, and she's tougher to kill then the IG space wizards. I don't think she's an overpowered choice, but I've never used her in 8th.
I think Greyfax is the right choice, given your restrictions. She's pretty much the definition of balanced - she's reasonably powerful in the "psyker shutdown" niche, but not overwhelmingly so, at a reasonable cost. Plus her model looks badass. I'd pick her up if you have the chance.
PanzerLeader wrote: How competitive do you guys think Xenos or hereticus acolytes with flamers or plasma guns would be?
For flamers I'd stick with sisters. One point more gets you power armor, acts of faith, shield of faith. Make them dominions (2pts more) and you get 5 flamers compared to six, and vanguard. The only edge the acolytes have is that the xenos get to reroll some wounds against some armies, and the hereticus against the rare character.
PanzerLeader wrote: How competitive do you guys think Xenos or hereticus acolytes with flamers or plasma guns would be?
For flamers I'd stick with sisters. One point more gets you power armor, acts of faith, shield of faith. Make them dominions (2pts more) and you get 5 flamers compared to six, and vanguard. The only edge the acolytes have is that the xenos get to reroll some wounds against some armies, and the hereticus against the rare character.
Hereticus get to re-roll against anything with the Chaos keyword, so they get their bonus against more than just the "rare character." That said, they're clearly costed as if this ability is "always on," so if you're going up against anything without the tag, they're grossly inefficient. I love Acolytes to death, but with the profile of a Guard Sergeant, but double the price, they're barely worthwhile even with the ability. I wouldn't classify them as "competitive" unless you can somehow be certain you'll be facing nothing but their Quarry.
I'd say the current most competitive choices for Plasma are clearly Miltarum Tempestus Scions, while Flamers are probably best on <Catachan> squads, if you don't mind investing a bit for a detachment.
Rynner wrote: I hate to be that guy buy depending on how much Celestine goes up and how/if Repressors change I'm not sure how viable sisters well be as an army.
Let's wait a few days before moaning and gnashing our teeth.
It will be interesting to see how big an increase Celestine gets. Will it be enough to remove her from Soup armies? Distraction Carnifex isn't the way I like to think of her being a Sisters player. I hope they can derail that notion and actually balance her points out rather than nerf her into uselessness.
As far as the Repressor goes, a points increase will just make the Immolator more attractive and make Sisters players make a choice rather than auto-include. I have six repressors, but I also have 13 rhino/immo's that honestly don't see the table top equal to their % of my available collection.
It all comes down to how well they balance it.
Don't forget, we might actually be getting a power fist point fix for the Eviscerator, Repentia (?), and hopefully the hand flamer.
I doubt it of course, but my Sisters will keep purging no matter what.
Fortunately, if they do go too high on the points we might get a rebalance with the Codex (which I’m hoping for sooner rather than later). Still, this all feels like Index 2.0, I wish GW would come out with all the codexes at one time and then tweak the points maybe with two Chapter Approveds per year. All the changes and new books / tweaks etc are why I left during 6th and 7th.
davidgr33n wrote: Fortunately, if they do go too high on the points we might get a rebalance with the Codex (which I’m hoping for sooner rather than later). Still, this all feels like Index 2.0, I wish GW would come out with all the codexes at one time and then tweak the points maybe with two Chapter Approveds per year. All the changes and new books / tweaks etc are why I left during 6th and 7th.
Its better to bring them out one at a time for production reasons, they can focus on making certain armies spurs, they most likely only have a few machine. (im experience in productions but not GW this is just an educated guess).
It also gives them more knowledge as to what stratagems are to strong or weak, i'm sure they think the CSMAL one is a bit strong and next time would make it +1 more CP.
dracpanzer wrote: It will be interesting to see how big an increase Celestine gets. Will it be enough to remove her from Soup armies?
I'd almost rather there were a simple universal mechanism by which character-heavy soup was taxed. Celestine never descends onto the battlefield without 2 BSS Troop units already there, Girlyman doesn't set foot out the door without 2 Tac squads, etc. EXCEPT in a single-faction army of their own faction. She does need a nerf in imperial soup, but not in mono Sisters IMO.
So let's start by posting once again the chapter approved rumors for SOB:
Adepta Sororitas
/Warlord Trait - re-roll failed morale tests if within 6" of Warlord
/Relic - Blade to replace power sword. Melee S +2 AP-3 D3
/Strategems
1CP Martydom-use when a character dies and on a 2+ can perform an Act of Faith 1CP Purity of Faith- use when an enemy uses psychic powers within 24" on a 4+ negate it.
On Martyrdom, while I am aware that the wording (if this is even true) is likely to change, I am reading this as being usable in your opponent's turn and not only tour turn.
Since characters are most likely to die in your opponent's turn, I could see a lot of actions out of sequence happening.
Spamming squads of five sisters to lose the superiors so that Celestine, Seraphims or Retributors get extra actions in your opponent's phase would be extremely useful.
Strategic Discipline is a solid blocker right now however. If they allow for it to be used more than once per phase however, it would make battalions worthwhile for sister players.
dracpanzer wrote: It will be interesting to see how big an increase Celestine gets. Will it be enough to remove her from Soup armies?
I'd almost rather there were a simple universal mechanism by which character-heavy soup was taxed. Celestine never descends onto the battlefield without 2 BSS Troop units already there, Girlyman doesn't set foot out the door without 2 Tac squads, etc. EXCEPT in a single-faction army of their own faction. She does need a nerf in imperial soup, but not in mono Sisters IMO.
If they bump up the buffs that Sisters (only) get from her - buffs commensurate with her cost- then good. If they bump up her cost with no bump for the Sisters then, well let’s just say my Canoness is starting to look a little more attractive right now.
Spamming squads of five sisters to lose the superiors so that Celestine, Seraphims or Retributors get extra actions in your opponent's phase would be extremely useful.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Use dialogous are objective holders, put 2 or 3 on each objective and laugh when they get pulled off.
I like the way you think
I can just see my gun line of Stormbolter Dominions smirking every time someone got ready to off a character on an objective...
If this rumor does pan out, it will just go to show how little effort GW puts into playtesting their ideas.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Use dialogous are objective holders, put 2 or 3 on each objective and laugh when they get pulled off.
I like the way you think
I can just see my gun line of Stormbolter Dominions smirking every time someone got ready to off a character on an objective...
If this rumor does pan out, it will just go to show how little effort GW puts into playtesting their ideas.
If it's an army wide available AoF (to those units with the rule but any range) that would be freaking hilarious. I dare you to shoot me off that objective....
dracpanzer wrote: It will be interesting to see how big an increase Celestine gets. Will it be enough to remove her from Soup armies?
I'd almost rather there were a simple universal mechanism by which character-heavy soup was taxed. Celestine never descends onto the battlefield without 2 BSS Troop units already there, Girlyman doesn't set foot out the door without 2 Tac squads, etc. EXCEPT in a single-faction army of their own faction. She does need a nerf in imperial soup, but not in mono Sisters IMO.
If they bump up the buffs that Sisters (only) get from her - buffs commensurate with her cost- then good. If they bump up her cost with no bump for the Sisters then, well let’s just say my Canoness is starting to look a little more attractive right now.
The thing about this all is what makes Celestine powerful? Act of Faith! Why can a model make use of army special rules while in soup detachment? Easy fix, make AoF a chapter tactic level rule where by it's only usable in a pure detachment. Celestine stops showing up in soup detachments, problem solved. If you want to take her in her full effect then you'd have to take her in at the very least, a scout detachment. It's not much of a tax but it adds up, A command point missed here, a lynch pin unit missed there, a whole detachment slot eaten.
Ha crap, had a brainfart about the character rule change from 7th to 8th.
But yeah, ugly model spam would be viable on objectives and be terribly funny, yet effective.
Edit:
Something else to consider. If the wording does not change, that would also work when one of your opponent's character dies. You basically made him a martyr
It would also mean that characters from other factions you bring along would be opened to being used as martyrs.
It's likely wishlisting at this point, but it would be funny if that was not clarified.
Worse idea (or better!), make Dialogous a 15 point 'upgrade' to every transport. You get to choose the model that dies when a transport explodes and you roll a 1.
I have been considering for some time to demote Celestine and use her points elsewhere, so if she does get a considerable addition in points I’ll be fielding a Canoness and 100 plus points of goodies.
My real question / concern is what they’ll be doing to Repressors. I love my Immolators, but Repressors have made my girls so much more flexible tactically.
My other question is, how are they going to resolve the much-maligned Exorcist?
I hope GW realizes I don’t want to pay for Leman Russ durability with the equivalent of Stormbolter damage output.
The way the rumor is worded it makes it sound like only the dead character can perform an act of faith which makes it utterly useless in your interruption of the rules.
Rynner wrote: The way the rumor is worded it makes it sound like only the dead character can perform an act of faith which makes it utterly useless in your interruption of the rules.
I don't see that at all, but no use arguing over a vague rumor.
Same here. I’d been proxying my Repressors for a while and finally got some upgrade kits recently.... I’d hate to have done so much only to have them nerfed to the point of uselessness.
Dont get too excited: I think the stratagem is just that on 2+, the dying character can do AoF as its last action before being removed. Not that insane although canoness firing her inferno pistol would be annoying if her killer is something big.
Blightstar wrote: Dont get too excited: I think the stratagem is just that on 2+, the dying character can do AoF as its last action before being removed. Not that insane although canoness firing her inferno pistol would be annoying if her killer is something big.
I would be very surprised if this is the case. The Martyrdom rule has always given the surviving Sisters units who apparently witnessed the character being martyred some sort of buff to the AoF mechanic. Not that the character gets a super secret explosion of power after they have been killed but before you remove them from the table top. We don't know for sure, but I think its going to be a lot more like the undead Eldar soulburst rule proxing an AoF to a nearby unit than a last act of defiance for an Imagifer. Seems more in keeping with past versions of the rule and fluff of the Sisters.
davidgr33n wrote:Same here. I’d been proxying my Repressors for a while and finally got some upgrade kits recently.... I’d hate to have done so much only to have them nerfed to the point of uselessness.
Rynner wrote:No I found them elsewhere.
pretre wrote:
Rynner wrote: Fair enough. I'm just hoping Repressors don't get it too bad as I just finally found 5 upgrade kits and months of searching.
Was it the guy on FB? I almost got those but he couldn't provide any provenance.
Where'd the three of you get your upgrade kits? If you don't mind me asking.
davidgr33n wrote:Same here. I’d been proxying my Repressors for a while and finally got some upgrade kits recently.... I’d hate to have done so much only to have them nerfed to the point of uselessness.
Rynner wrote:No I found them elsewhere.
pretre wrote:
Rynner wrote: Fair enough. I'm just hoping Repressors don't get it too bad as I just finally found 5 upgrade kits and months of searching.
Was it the guy on FB? I almost got those but he couldn't provide any provenance.
Where'd the three of you get your upgrade kits? If you don't mind me asking.
I converted mine. There's probably a place you could find them on the internet since FW doesn't make them anymore.
davidgr33n wrote: @Sentionaut You can find very expensive kits on eBay every once in a while, but I went through Shapeways. They have several kit and finish options
I'm remembering now that a couple pages back on this thread, someone showed off the below pic of a Shapeways Repressor topper, sparking a discussion about the merits of 3D prints because of the uneven surface in contrast to the smooth finish on the GW Rhino chassis underneath it. If you zoom in, you can see that it's the 3D print lines staying visible through the layers of paint.
Did you have the same experience with your topper's surface? And what finish option did you choose? Would be interested to see if you've got any pics. Wondering if they all just come out this way, making sanding a necessary prep step...
Automatically Appended Next Post: So +20 on Repressor. +50 on Celestine. -25 on Geminae. -3 per hand flamer. -3 per inferno pistol. -10! for eviscerator.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Exorcist -25 points. Niec.
I still don't think the Exorcist is playable from a competitive stand point - its too random for my tastes. A flat 2 or 3 damage would make it worth it though. So well see if that changes.
+20 for the Repressor seems like a huge nerf that I'm not sure was warranted. I'm okay with the changes to Celestine, it just means I'll take BFFs. If the 2+ Act of faith thing is real then when one of her BFF's dies we can get a free act of faith. Smited Celestine in combat and did 2 wounds? Cool. Heres a bunch of s7 d2 attacks.
What I would really like to see is if the rule of one now applies to smite. If thats the case then I do feel sisters got better, if it doesn't it feels like a nerf.
Amishprn86 wrote: Going to a doubles tournament soon, with Repressor changes (+20pts) and Exorcist ones, i'm thinking of playing Immolators with Dominions + SB's.
Do you guys feel the Exorcist is worth a take now? I'm still on the Fence about it.
+20 for the Repressor is worth it (and honestly the Repressor deserved it) and is certainly worth it to keep your Dominions from getting obliterated the turn after they disembark from your Immolator. She who bails, fails.
Exorcist? 50 pts more than a HB Ret squad. Hard to say, I will have to try it from my "lets see what this does" points.
I think 50 pts for Celestine is a bit much, esp when Guilliman only went up what, 25 pts? I hope we get some rules to benefit Sisters with her.
Repressors at an extra 20 was more than I expected. I used to feel bad pulling back from assault and shooting my Girls out from the firing ports, if they haven’t changed the wording, I’ll be putting holy bolter wrath every chance I get.
Sadly, any Imperial soup force can take her (and just her) and use the same stratagem. I wish GW would confine the parameters a little so that Sisters players could get more benefit out of our proper HQ choice.
davidgr33n wrote: Sadly, any Imperial soup force can take her (and just her) and use the same stratagem. I wish GW would confine the parameters a little so that Sisters players could get more benefit out of our proper HQ choice.
If they are unlocked like guard, marines, chaos, etc... the stratagems will need a full sisters detachment so at the very least they are taking a unit of BSS and using a detachment to get access to it.
Yea! Hopefully it is like any other faction stratagem and requires you to have a full Sororitas detachment (it'll go well with my foot brigade + foot battalion at 1750 points )
Celestine went up 50 points
Geminaes went down 25 points each.
If you take them all, you're still paying the same cost as before.
Exorcist went down 25 points
Eviscerator went down 10 points
Hand Flamers and Inferno Pistols both went down 3 points.
Stormbolders, as expected, is now 2 points.
Repressor went up 20 points (ouch)
The warlord trait and the relic are exactly as expected.
The Stratagems are clarified. You can only use Martyrdom once at the end of a phase in which a character died. opens some strategic moves in your opponents turn, but its definately not overpowered. As for the other one, it's exactly as leaked.
I think CA is a slight buff to Sisters overall. The trait makes foot lists more viable, the stratagems give us psychic defense back and make for some interesting strategic possibilities and Celestine really didn’t get hit too hard.
Celestine went up 50 points
Geminaes went down 25 points each.
If you take them all, you're still paying the same cost as before.
Exorcist went down 25 points
Eviscerator went down 10 points
Hand Flamers and Inferno Pistols both went down 3 points.
Stormbolders, as expected, is now 2 points.
Repressor went up 20 points (ouch)
The warlord trait and the relic are exactly as expected.
The Stratagems are clarified. You can only use Martyrdom once at the end of a phase in which a character died. opens some strategic moves in your opponents turn, but its definately not overpowered. As for the other one, it's exactly as leaked.
Any word on if Sisters will get some sort of Chapter Tactics?
Celestine went up 50 points
Geminaes went down 25 points each.
If you take them all, you're still paying the same cost as before.
Exorcist went down 25 points
Eviscerator went down 10 points
Hand Flamers and Inferno Pistols both went down 3 points.
Stormbolders, as expected, is now 2 points.
Repressor went up 20 points (ouch)
The warlord trait and the relic are exactly as expected.
The Stratagems are clarified. You can only use Martyrdom once at the end of a phase in which a character died. opens some strategic moves in your opponents turn, but its definately not overpowered. As for the other one, it's exactly as leaked.
Any word on if Sisters will get some sort of Chapter Tactics?
I think “Acts of Faith” is our form of Chapter Tactics for 8th ed.
Celestine went up 50 points
Geminaes went down 25 points each.
If you take them all, you're still paying the same cost as before.
Exorcist went down 25 points
Eviscerator went down 10 points
Hand Flamers and Inferno Pistols both went down 3 points.
Stormbolders, as expected, is now 2 points.
Repressor went up 20 points (ouch)
The warlord trait and the relic are exactly as expected.
The Stratagems are clarified. You can only use Martyrdom once at the end of a phase in which a character died. opens some strategic moves in your opponents turn, but its definately not overpowered. As for the other one, it's exactly as leaked.
Any word on if Sisters will get some sort of Chapter Tactics?
I think “Acts of Faith” is our form of Chapter Tactics for 8th ed.
What? No. Acts of Faith is our Army Special Rule, like Orders or And They Shall Know No Fear or Battle Focus or Canticles of the Omnissiah.
We have no "Order Sects" or whatever (which is a sub-division of Factions, like Cadians, Catachans, or Tallarn, who all have Orders; or Stygies, Mars, and Lucius, who all have Canticles).
"Use this Strategem at the end of a phase in which an Adepta Sororitas character from your army has been slain. REMOVE THAT UNIT FROM THE BATTLEFIELD. Roll a d6, on a roll of 2+ one unit from your army with the Act of Faith ability can perform an Act of Faith."
Only units that remain on the battlefield get to use the AoF, no distance restrictions from the Martyred unit. Since you have to remove the Martyred unit to use this Strategem, you aren't going to want to use this when losing a Geminae as it would remove the entire unit. Since its at the end of a phase, it would only pop for Celestine dying the second time or after failing her 2+ and your CP re-roll. Even if a Geminae remained you couldn't use the Strategem to bring Celestine back as you would have to remove the Geminae to do so.
You could of course just wait till your next turn with a Geminae on the field to bring back 1W Celestine. Though it seems like the rule is pretty tight on the whole Martyrs being actually dead to use this Strategem. I like it. Dialogus for everybody!
Yeah thanks. I've been hoping CA gives us some generic ones to pick from to keep them semi playable competitively.
I find them quite competitive, CA has given us some nice point cuts, Martyrdom, Blade of Admonition for my Seraphim Superior. And made the Repressor so that nobody can complain about it anymore...
"Use this Strategem at the end of a phase in which an Adepta Sororitas character from your army has been slain. REMOVE THAT UNIT FROM THE BATTLEFIELD. Roll a d6, on a roll of 2+ one unit from your army with the Act of Faith ability can perform an Act of Faith."
Only units that remain on the battlefield get to use the AoF, no distance restrictions from the Martyred unit. Since you have to remove the Martyred unit to use this Strategem, you aren't going to want to use this when losing a Geminae as it would remove the entire unit. Since its at the end of a phase, it would only pop for Celestine dying the second time or after failing her 2+ and your CP re-roll. Even if a Geminae remained you couldn't use the Strategem to bring Celestine back as you would have to remove the Geminae to do so.
You could of course just wait till your next turn with a Geminae on the field to bring back 1W Celestine. Though it seems like the rule is pretty tight on the whole Martyrs being actually dead to use this Strategem. I like it. Dialogus for everybody!
Ouch. Yeah, I agree with your points. Remove the unit is a big deal and removes the Geminae abuse. Good for them. Dialogous, on the other hand...
@dracpanzer- Curious, Seraphim Superiors are not characters, so just asking how are you getting her the Blade of Admonition?
@Unit1126PLL- I imagine with the Codex, should we get a proper one, we might get some “sub-faction” flavoring and bonuses as you say, but nothing like that in the CA.
davidgr33n wrote: @dracpanzer- Curious, Seraphim Superiors are not characters, so just asking how are you getting her the Blade of Admonition?
@Unit1126PLL- I imagine with the Codex, should we get a proper one, we might get some “sub-faction” flavoring and bonuses as you say, but nothing like that in the CA.
Yes! That's what I expect with the codex. We have none until then.
As much as everyone is liking the idea of Celestine + twins, I’m still strongly debating solo Celestine. I hate that by herself she’s 200 pts (uugggg), but taking the bodyguards just seems like an invitation for reckless play. Yes, my savings went from 100 pts to 50 pts, but that’s still more goodies elsewhere.
Just another point of view, though I admit I’m tempted just to bite the bullet and take the 250 pt unit.
One caveat: if Geminae (being characters) can take the Blade of Admonition, then I’ll take at least one.
Rynner wrote: I hadn't thought about giving the Gemini the blade. Thats not bad if you can do it.
That Warlord trait is trash though.
Yes, if a Geminae can carry the Relic Blade, then that will be extra punch for Celestine. The Warlord trait is definitely meh, which is why I currently use Tallarn as an ally. My Tallarn are about 850 pts, but carry my anti-tank and serve as my Warlord.
Just curious, does anyone know if the wording to any special rules got changed? I’m specifically curious as to whether or not the wording for the Repressor’s “Firing Ports” changed...
Just curious, does anyone know if the wording to any special rules got changed? I’m specifically curious as to whether or not the wording for the Repressor’s “Firing Ports” changed...
It's only pts changes in Chapter Approved. None of the datasheets have been altered.
St Celestine is a named character/unit therefore unable to use a Relic. The geminae are just her wargear so I really don't see them as able to use any relics either, since they're part of a named unit. It looks like the canoness is the only unit that can take it.
I'm on the fence about the Martyrdom stratagem triggering on 1 geminae dying. I think it currently fits the wording but will be FAQd quickly. I also read Martyrdom as triggering and AoF for the dying character, not the army itself. Who knows yet..
deviantduck wrote: St Celestine is a named character/unit therefore unable to use a Relic. The geminae are just her wargear so I really don't see them as able to use any relics either, since they're part of a named unit. It looks like the canoness is the only unit that can take it.
I'm on the fence about the Martyrdom stratagem triggering on 1 geminae dying. I think it currently fits the wording but will be FAQd quickly. I also read Martyrdom as triggering and AoF for the dying character, not the army itself. Who knows yet..
My bad about Seraphim Superiors and the relic. I have yet to play any of my armies apart from Sisters in 8ed and have been blissfully unaware of the criteria for such things. Thanks for pointing it out, I don't have to make that mistake in a game now. It does require a character who can purchase a power sword you then upgrade to the relic with CP correct? So its only available on the Canoness?
Even if Martyrdom triggers on losing a Geminae, you would have to remove her twin and Celestine from the board to use the Strategem, so would you want too?
dracpanzer wrote: It does require a character who can purchase a power sword you then upgrade to the relic with CP correct? So its only available on the Canoness?
If your army is led by an <Adepta Sororitas> Warlord, then you get a relic for free. Other armies can get extra relics by using a Strategem, but no such Strategem exists for sisters, so the only way to get a Blade of Admonition is to have the <AS> Warlord. Note that's Adepta Sororitas specifically, Adeptus Ministorum won't count.
The screenshot I saw actually had no prohibitions against giving the blade to named Characters, but that may well be a general provision earlier in the book. Given that this restriction is common to every other relic pool, I think it's a safe bet that Celestine & friends will not be able to take it, whether by the book or via later errata.
That leaves the Canoness as the only eligible Character who can take a power sword. Which seems just fine, 49 points for a 4A S5 AP-3 D3 melee combatant with WS2+ and re-roll 1s is quite a bargain.
Does the relic have to go to the warlord? I'm in the habit of running 2 Canonesses at 2k, 1 in the back as warlord with the heavy bolters and one up front with power sword and Inferno pistol. Can my forward character carry the relic even if she isn't WL?
MacPhail wrote: Does the relic have to go to the warlord? I'm in the habit of running 2 Canonesses at 2k, 1 in the back as warlord with the heavy bolters and one up front with power sword and Inferno pistol. Can my forward character carry the relic even if she isn't WL?
Anyone can carry the relic as long as they meet the requirements. It doesn't have to be your warlord.
I played by friend twice with his Tyranids and wiped him both times.
Thus far the Carnifex has impressed me (dont know what it costs but I damn sure learned what it can do). Nothing else impresses me. I feel like they have more potential than previous because they definitely bit back hard, but I did not fel the game was in doubt at any point.
So I am somewhat unconvinced that a lot of changes are needed to account for them. I think volume of fire is still totally solid against Tyranids and I think that flamers are especially effective against their "-1 to hit" shenanigans.
I know I will fight progressively tougher versions but so far nothing has struck me as overly dangerous. Except Carnifex's. they are good. Probably Exocrines too.
Melissia wrote:At least it makes a Canoness a not-entirely-terrible choice.
I agree.
My lists also run two Canoness by default. Giving the relic to my forward Canoness seems like a no-brained.
Something else that has my mind racing; rules for fortifications. Will a Sisters Bastian make a return? How about an Ageis Line? Could that reject from Inquisitor 54 mm actually be good?
I don't really see potential in Martyrdom or the Blade. I mean I guess they don't cost points.
Jancoran wrote:I played by friend twice with his Tyranids and wiped him both times.
Thus far the Carnifex has impressed me (dont know what it costs but I damn sure learned what it can do). Nothing else impresses me. I feel like they have more potential than previous because they definitely bit back hard, but I did not fel the game was in doubt at any point.
So I am somewhat unconvinced that a lot of changes are needed to account for them. I think volume of fire is still totally solid against Tyranids and I think that flamers are especially effective against their "-1 to hit" shenanigans.
I know I will fight progressively tougher versions but so far nothing has struck me as overly dangerous. Except Carnifex's. they are good. Probably Exocrines too.
Tyranids have a pretty strong deep strike ability, which I'm concerned about at least. I've been concerned about it from the beginning, but the re-roll failed charges thing is, at least in my mind, a serious problem when combined with Trygons, 'stealers, and Hormagaunts.
So with the points adjustment in Chapter Approved my list suddenly had another 72 points to play with. With a little jiggering here and there of other squads I managed to add a few extra Sister's and an Eversor assassin. Have any of you tried out or faced off against old crazy skull mask in 8th?
My current list went up 118 points with no changes. I have 2 Xiphons in the mail and they went up 30 points each... Ugh. Not sure if they're worth fielding at 240 points each now.
Yeah mine went up by about 80. I was pretty upset for a bit because a 28% increase on the repressor seemed excessive before I released that most of the stuff I struggled with went up by way more.
I'll most likely be dropping my bike libby, culuxess assassin, acolytes, and adding a detachment of a canoness and 3x Dialogus.
Rynner wrote: Yeah mine went up by about 80. I was pretty upset for a bit because a 28% increase on the repressor seemed excessive before I released that most of the stuff I struggled with went up by way more.
I'll most likely be dropping my bike libby, culuxess assassin, acolytes, and adding a detachment of a canoness and 3x Dialogus.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I've been thinking of taking more imagifers now that they have two uses.
Yeah, i'm thinking of taking 1 as well, i just thought about take 2 Ret HB units with 2 Imagifiers. I needed to cut out a unit and vehicle, but thinking of taking out 2 of my 7 lol.
Rynner wrote: Yeah mine went up by about 80. I was pretty upset for a bit because a 28% increase on the repressor seemed excessive before I released that most of the stuff I struggled with went up by way more.
I'll most likely be dropping my bike libby, culuxess assassin, acolytes, and adding a detachment of a canoness and 3x Dialogus.
A martyr farm?
Yeah but I want to see the exact wording of the rule when the book drops.
@Amishprn86 I tried that a GT. Afterwards I found it generally would have been better to just buy a 3rd heavy bolter squad. However with the Stratagem and the modified character rules imagifers might have their place again although I doubt it.
I've been running 2 Imagifiers in the back with a clear purpose (HB Rets) and one up front with the melee Canoness whose role has been a little muddy. Sometimes she activates melta Doms shooting, sometimes she slingshots the Canoness into a distant fight, but I think her role just got a little more obvious.
What's the new detail about how characters function?
My 2000 pt tourney list went up by exactly 200 points (ouch), so I’m having to make some tough decisions, at least the rules on the Repressors didn’t get a nerf...
Points increases-
Solo Celestine 50
6 Repressors 120
Temp Prime Command Rod 5
5 Scions meltaguns 25
As was mentioned previously, some of my toughest opponents’ units also went up, so I don’t feel too shafted.
MacPhail wrote: I've been running 2 Imagifiers in the back with a clear purpose (HB Rets) and one up front with the melee Canoness whose role has been a little muddy. Sometimes she activates melta Doms shooting, sometimes she slingshots the Canoness into a distant fight, but I think her role just got a little more obvious.
What's the new detail about how characters function?
Supposedly you can not target a character unless they are closest unit. So if there is a unit of grots 1" from you out of LOS but a weird boy that is in the open but is 1.1" from you the grots prevent you from targeting the character.
MacPhail wrote: I've been running 2 Imagifiers in the back with a clear purpose (HB Rets) and one up front with the melee Canoness whose role has been a little muddy. Sometimes she activates melta Doms shooting, sometimes she slingshots the Canoness into a distant fight, but I think her role just got a little more obvious.
What's the new detail about how characters function?
Supposedly you can not target a character unless they are closest unit. So if there is a unit of grots 1" from you out of LOS but a weird boy that is in the open but is 1.1" from you the grots prevent you from targeting the character.
If i remember correctly unit counts as closest if you can se them, so in this example you can shoot to weirdboy.
MacPhail wrote: I've been running 2 Imagifiers in the back with a clear purpose (HB Rets) and one up front with the melee Canoness whose role has been a little muddy. Sometimes she activates melta Doms shooting, sometimes she slingshots the Canoness into a distant fight, but I think her role just got a little more obvious.
What's the new detail about how characters function?
Supposedly you can not target a character unless they are closest unit. So if there is a unit of grots 1" from you out of LOS but a weird boy that is in the open but is 1.1" from you the grots prevent you from targeting the character.
If i remember correctly unit counts as closest if you can se them, so in this example you can shoot to weirdboy.
The rumored new rule states that regardless of LOS, if the character is not the nearest unit it cannot be shot at.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Question for the thread: If a squad is embarked on a Repressor, is it able to use an AoF to shoot out of the firing ports (Divine Guidance)?
Rynner wrote: Yeah but I want to see the exact wording of the rule when the book drops.
"Use this Strategem at the end of a phase in which an Adepta Sororitas character from your army has been slain. REMOVE THAT UNIT FROM THE BATTLEFIELD. Roll a d6, on a roll of 2+ one unit from your army with the Act of Faith ability can perform an Act of Faith."
Rynner wrote: Thanks for the leak. The Stratagem is okay. Time will tell how good it is in practice.
I think it definitely has some possibilities with how cheap Dialogus are. Riding in a transport with BSS or Rets, vehicle gets crushed, lose a model? Dialogus takes the hit and 2+ to get a free AoF for Celestine. Or you use them to hold objectives and opponents may think twice about clearing you off it knowng Celestine takes it so personal. Even if all you are doing is healing Celestine, thats enough. But imagine martyrdom popping during your opponents shooting phase allowing you to move his charge target a full move + adv out of the way. Will be fun if you get imaginitive and a bit lucky.
The Deny power is nice. A 4+ with a re-roll to deny buffed up Magnus isn't so bad when it only costs you CP and you don't have to get in to the psyker business to even compete. May not need to use it all the time, but there are moments you really don't want a power to go off for your opponent and a couple CP is fairly cheap knowing you can quite reliably do so.
@dracpanzer: I hope its a 3. I think I'm going to shuffle some characters around in my list so that I can a Blade canoness, Celestine, and a thunder hammer marine captain for counter-assault alongside my flagellants.
Has anyone had luck incorporating stock hereticus inquisition units into a sisters list? I've found them pretty overpriced for what they do.
it would probably be better to condense the dialogus into immagifiers for the purposes of faith economy. I mean if we're going to go down the route of generating faith through martyrdom we might as well double down with it. Try to make it so that for every 1 turn the enemy gets we effectively get 2 turns.
deviantduck wrote: I still don't see a Gemini being able to take the relic sword. It goes against every other codex.
They aren't named characters, so I don't see why not.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Drider wrote: it would probably be better to condense the dialogus into immagifiers for the purposes of faith economy. I mean if we're going to go down the route of generating faith through martyrdom we might as well double down with it. Try to make it so that for every 1 turn the enemy gets we effectively get 2 turns.
If the Warlord isn’t in the Sisters’ detachment , can she take the Relic? At least in the Guard Codex it states that if the Warlord is in that detachment THEN they can take Relics. I’ve heard of no such provision up to now for the Sisters (I usually take a Guard Warlord for their Relics and traits).
davidgr33n wrote: If the Warlord isn’t in the Sisters’ detachment , can she take the Relic? At least in the Guard Codex it states that if the Warlord is in that detachment THEN they can take Relics. I’ve heard of no such provision up to now for the Sisters (I usually take a Guard Warlord for their Relics and traits).
IG Codex doesn't have any Detatchment restrictions. In fact Heirlooms of Conquest doesn't even require your army to be battle-forged.
If you have an <Astra Militarum> Warlord, an <Astra Militarum> Character gets a relic. Same goes for <Adepta Sororitas>. Doesn't matter how they're organized, detatchment-wise.>
The best I could do brigade wise, while still remaining legal was:
Celestine and two Geminaes
2 x Canoness with Eviscerator
6 x 5 Battle Sisters with 2 Stormbolters in Rhinos
2 x 5 Doms with 4 Meltas in Immolator
1 x 5 Seraphims with 2 pairs of inferno pistols
3 x 5 Retributors with 4 Heavy Bolters
Now for Elites I actually went for:
2 x Imagifiers
1 x Dialogus
Reasoning for not spamming Dialogus? They literally do nothing for your army. They have no shooting. They hit on 5s in melee and their morale re-roll has no purposes when youre fielding 5 man squads. Once your opponent understands why your brought them, he will just ignore them or make sure to kill as many of them in the same shooting phase to deny you extra acts of faith.
I am thinking the imagifiers are still the best choice. They can provide you with acts of faith and if they die, which your opponent will likely try to do, they will get you one last act of faith.
I would leave one canoness and one imagifier behind with the retributors and send the others in with some sisters in their rhinos to support the dominions advance. As for the single dialogus, I would charge it right into my opponent first chance I get to suicide her and get an extra act of faith at the end of my own assault phase.
I think if you are aiming for a brigade there's no point in wasting points on transports for BSS. Just take them as a 5 girl unit and give them a heavy bolter, if you've got the points left over hand out some stormbolters as an after thought. Just use them to zone out deepstrikes and camp objectives. The heavy bolter gives them just enough poking power and range to be relevant for a 55 point unit.
Use the points saved from rhinos to spend on more powerful or conventionally useful units.
Drider wrote: I think if you are aiming for a brigade there's no point in wasting points on transports for BSS. Just take them as a 5 girl unit and give them a heavy bolter, if you've got the points left over hand out some stormbolters as an after thought. Just use them to zone out deepstrikes and camp objectives. The heavy bolter gives them just enough poking power and range to be relevant for a 55 point unit.
Use the points saved from rhinos to spend on more powerful or conventionally useful units.
Some of the transpports (Immolators, for example) are powerful in their own right, however, as is the movement power implied by an obsec unit in a Repressor.
I'm not sure thats a bad thing if your opponent knows why they are there. At the very least in that case they provide some cheap deep strike screening or objective holders that your opponent really doesn't want to kill.
A battalion, Outrider and something to fill the ranged support role. Let's face it our ranged options kinda suck, I've been enjoying a knight crusader with AGC, TC and SRP. But there's more than one option to fill that role.
Drider wrote: I think if you are aiming for a brigade there's no point in wasting points on transports for BSS. Just take them as a 5 girl unit and give them a heavy bolter, if you've got the points left over hand out some stormbolters as an after thought. Just use them to zone out deepstrikes and camp objectives. The heavy bolter gives them just enough poking power and range to be relevant for a 55 point unit.
Use the points saved from rhinos to spend on more powerful or conventionally useful units.
I wouldn't mount up all the BSS units, but ten infantry with 6 storm bolters (2 squads) in a Rhino have been great for me. I try to deposit the infantry into cover, preferably on to an objective, at the beginning of turn 2. The tank goes on to box out a movement lane or tie something up for a turn in CC, or stays nearby to add its storm bolter to the mix. The sisters put out a nice volume of fire and are hard to dislodge. A Canoness or Imagifier often stops by later in the game if the position is holding up well and making back its points. Shooting twice a turn and rerolling misses, I've had the combo absolutely shred orks, gribblies, and cultists, and even wear down units of MEQs over a couple of turns. If a single dominion survives the retribution charge after turn one, having her fall back and expose her opponent to this combo is pretty sweet.
davidgr33n wrote: If the Warlord isn’t in the Sisters’ detachment , can she take the Relic? At least in the Guard Codex it states that if the Warlord is in that detachment THEN they can take Relics. I’ve heard of no such provision up to now for the Sisters (I usually take a Guard Warlord for their Relics and traits).
IG Codex doesn't have any Detatchment restrictions. In fact Heirlooms of Conquest doesn't even require your army to be battle-forged.
If you have an <Astra Militarum> Warlord, an <Astra Militarum> Character gets a relic. Same goes for <Adepta Sororitas>. Doesn't matter how they're organized, detatchment-wise.
I should have said this differently...
My Warlord is a Commander in my Guard Detachment, can my Canoness (who is in my Sisters Detachment and not a Warlord) still take the Relic Blade?>
davidgr33n wrote: If the Warlord isn’t in the Sisters’ detachment , can she take the Relic? At least in the Guard Codex it states that if the Warlord is in that detachment THEN they can take Relics. I’ve heard of no such provision up to now for the Sisters (I usually take a Guard Warlord for their Relics and traits).
IG Codex doesn't have any Detatchment restrictions. In fact Heirlooms of Conquest doesn't even require your army to be battle-forged.
If you have an <Astra Militarum> Warlord, an <Astra Militarum> Character gets a relic. Same goes for <Adepta Sororitas>. Doesn't matter how they're organized, detatchment-wise.
I should have said this differently...
My Warlord is a Commander in my Guard Detachment, can my Canoness (who is in my Sisters Detachment and not a Warlord) still take the Relic Blade?>
No. You only have access to relics from your warlords faction.
davidgr33n wrote: If the Warlord isn’t in the Sisters’ detachment , can she take the Relic? At least in the Guard Codex it states that if the Warlord is in that detachment THEN they can take Relics. I’ve heard of no such provision up to now for the Sisters (I usually take a Guard Warlord for their Relics and traits).
IG Codex doesn't have any Detatchment restrictions. In fact Heirlooms of Conquest doesn't even require your army to be battle-forged.
If you have an <Astra Militarum> Warlord, an <Astra Militarum> Character gets a relic. Same goes for <Adepta Sororitas>. Doesn't matter how they're organized, detatchment-wise.
I should have said this differently...
My Warlord is a Commander in my Guard Detachment, can my Canoness (who is in my Sisters Detachment and not a Warlord) still take the Relic Blade?>
No. You only have access to relics from your warlords faction.
CA is giving everynone relics/WL traits and stratagems.
You get a relic if your faction has a full detachement, exmaple, if you are SoB with a Assassin and Gman in same detachment then no.
I feel that we are being pushed in multiple directions... which is good for variety. I think we still need something like conscripts though if we are going to be good at a foot-based army.
Do you think that tournaments will allow fortifications again?
Anpu-adom wrote: I feel that we are being pushed in multiple directions... which is good for variety. I think we still need something like conscripts though if we are going to be good at a foot-based army.
Do you think that tournaments will allow fortifications again?
Maybe!
My foot army works fine - I use 6 units of 10 sisters as the core, 5 with all storm bolters and 1 unit of melta-combimelta-multimelta. Two Immolator-mounted (my only not-foot units) of 4-melta & combi-melta Dominions, and one Seraphim with inferno pistols to escort Celestine with her 2 best friends. The heavy support are 4 Heavy Bolter rets, and the elites are 3 Imagifiers - 2 with the big blob up front, 1 in the back with the Rets to let one fire twice or give them some healing, etc. The other two HQs are two Canonesses, one for hanging out with the rets for that re-roll 1s on 12 Heavy Bolters and one up front in the blob to help with combat threats and give re-rolls to that ~60 sisters.
The one in the blob will get the Warlord Trait, because morale is actually an issue for 10-girl squads in a big mob, and will also get the Blade of Admonition because my blob always always manages to end up in close combat.
With the changes to Celestine's cost, where is the threshold where she reasonably enters a list? At 200 solo and 250 with friends, does she fit in a 1000 point list? I usually play 2000 and that looks to be the new tournament standard, but I have a couple of friendly games tonight at 1000. I'll play one game with her and one without, mainly to test the impact of the Canoness with relic and to run Seraphim at their new price point.
MacPhail wrote: With the changes to Celestine's cost, where is the threshold where she reasonably enters a list? At 200 solo and 250 with friends, does she fit in a 1000 point list? I usually play 2000 and that looks to be the new tournament standard, but I have a couple of friendly games tonight at 1000. I'll play one game with her and one without, mainly to test the impact of the Canoness with relic and to run Seraphim at their new price point.
My fair head costing of Saint Celestine's unit is:
MacPhail wrote: With the changes to Celestine's cost, where is the threshold where she reasonably enters a list? At 200 solo and 250 with friends, does she fit in a 1000 point list? I usually play 2000 and that looks to be the new tournament standard, but I have a couple of friendly games tonight at 1000. I'll play one game with her and one without, mainly to test the impact of the Canoness with relic and to run Seraphim at their new price point.
Depends on how much you think she is worth, i'm taking her in my 1k list for a tournament, in a friendly game at 1k i wouldnt take her.
He seized the initiative and did a little damage. My melta Doms and Seraphim utterly failed due to horrible melta rolling on my part and really good FNP rolls from him. I only made 2 AoF rolls the whole game. At the end of T1 he had everything still on the table and it went downhill from there. I was up on points after T3, but he was clearly going to table me and we called it at the bottom of T4. Not a terrible list or flawed deployment, but some terrible rolling at clutch moments vs. an opponent who knew how to maximize his list.
Despite the loss, I got a look at our new toys. I denied a witch! It was amazing. It felt really, you know, like I was playing an army resistant to psychic powers. I'd never actually done it in 8th with our horrible, horrible rule, so Purity of Faith is kind of nice if you have the CP. Definitely will be useful keeping Celestine from getting Smote to death.
Martyrdom was tough... I lost an Imagifier and a Canoness in the same Fight phase, so I didn't have a great target for the extra AoF when it finally came around. It was just too late in the game to matter, but it certainly offers something.
The Blade of Admonition was okay, but no substitute for Celestine. S5 wasn't what I needed to go up against an army with so few infantry. Inferno Seraphim are great, but they need that 5++ from Celestine to really stand out.
Anyway, if two of our problems are that we can't effectively counter psykers and AoFs don't scale well, maybe GW tried to throw us a bone. I liked my list even though it got trounced. If I'd had one or two things off the table by T2 it would have been a different game, and most of the new gimmicks at least look like they can pull their weight.
Agreed, Celestine is a huge bonus to Sisters even if AoF's don't scale as well in a pure Sisters army. Imagifers ccoupled with Martyrdom are going to become quite nice for us. Sorry your Immo Doms left you wanting. My first detachment is always Outrider. CP's are great, but Dominions are always better even if you just take them for the Vanguard move.
I am interested to see how it settles out about using Martyrdom AoF's. Is using an AoF a once per game turn ability or once per player turn? Although I suspect its on a game turn basis. We need to ask the question because their has never been any chance to use the 8ed AoF in anything but your own player turn.
Assuming its Game Turn, it does put some interesting pros in going second. Not that I would ever aim to go second but you can't always avoid it. And when stuck doing so at least you get a clean slate of units to choose from as your army is still waiting for your bottom half of the turn to get an AoF phase.
In running through the possibilities, I think the chance to move units might be one of the best uses alongside shooting and Celestine when in hth. The ability to disengage a unit at the end of your opponents shooting phase, at the very least causing additional overwatch and possibly causing a failed charge that removes the threat of enemy hth attacks. Which occuring in your opponents turn wouldn't count for your girls as having fallen back during your next turn.
At any rate, its going to make our opponents leary of killing characters during their shooting phase, we get better options out of it than we do losses in the assault phase.
Not sure which would be more entertaining, lose a character in your opponents shooting phase, Do you move that BSS unit your opponent was lining up to assault away so that they can't. Or do you move Celestine into the gap and force your opponent to charge her as well as...I am excited for CA. We will just have to get used to using our characters in a manner so that we will benefit more than our opponent would like by leaving our characters (especially the Elite choice ones) alive so they are more hard pressed to target them.
dracpanzer wrote: Agreed, Celestine is a huge bonus to Sisters even if AoF's don't scale as well in a pure Sisters army. Imagifers ccoupled with Martyrdom are going to become quite nice for us. Sorry your Immo Doms left you wanting. My first detachment is always Outrider. CP's are great, but Dominions are always better even if you just take them for the Vanguard move.
I am interested to see how it settles out about using Martyrdom AoF's. Is using an AoF a once per game turn ability or once per player turn? Although I suspect its on a game turn basis. We need to ask the question because their has never been any chance to use the 8ed AoF in anything but your own player turn.
Assuming its Game Turn, it does put some interesting pros in going second. Not that I would ever aim to go second but you can't always avoid it. And when stuck doing so at least you get a clean slate of units to choose from as your army is still waiting for your bottom half of the turn to get an AoF phase.
In running through the possibilities, I think the chance to move units might be one of the best uses alongside shooting and Celestine when in hth. The ability to disengage a unit at the end of your opponents shooting phase, at the very least causing additional overwatch and possibly causing a failed charge that removes the threat of enemy hth attacks. Which occuring in your opponents turn wouldn't count for your girls as having fallen back during your next turn.
At any rate, its going to make our opponents leary of killing characters during their shooting phase, we get better options out of it than we do losses in the assault phase.
Not sure which would be more entertaining, lose a character in your opponents shooting phase, Do you move that BSS unit your opponent was lining up to assault away so that they can't. Or do you move Celestine into the gap and force your opponent to charge her as well as...I am excited for CA. We will just have to get used to using our characters in a manner so that we will benefit more than our opponent would like by leaving our characters (especially the Elite choice ones) alive so they are more hard pressed to target them.
I don't think there's any issue or conflict. Last edition we had 'Game Turn' and 'Player Turn', and any generic 'Turn' meant 'Player Turn' by default. However, 8th changed it to 'Battle Round' and 'Turn'. Each 'Battle Round has two 'Turns'.
From the rulebook, pg 177
THE BATTLE ROUND
Warhammer 40,000 is played in a series of battle rounds. During each battle round, both players have a turn. The same player always takes the first turn in each battle round – the mission you are playing will tell you which player this is. Each turn consists of a series of phases, which must be resolved in order. The phases are as follows:
Now, the way I read this is, you can't have celestine fight something before the movement phase and then have her fight again later in your own turn. Let's say in the charge phase you charge something with a rhino and it gets overwatched and dies and you roll a 1 for the ladies inside and you choose your dialogus inside to perish. You now get a free AoF out a sequence. I don't think Celestine gets to fight again in the charge phase right before she'd have the opportunity to fight for a third time in the fight phase.
From Index Imperium 2, pg 91
ACTS OF FAITH
Roll a D6 at the start of each of your turns. On a roll of 2+, one unit from your army with the Acts of Faith ability can perform an Act of Faith chosen from the following list. Some abilities may allow you to use more than one Act of Faith in the same turn; when this is the case, a different unit must be chosen to perform each Act of Faith.
Now, I totally don't think it's game breaking, or any more of a shenanigan compared to some things in other armies, to let someone use more than 1 AoF in a turn as long as it's in different phases, but that's my opinion and not how I interpret the rules.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wow, I got lost in that and didn't actually reply to your question. Yes, I think it is perfectly legal for you to use and AoF during your opponent's turn even if the same AoF was used by the same unit on your turn. Since it's a different turn, you aren't violating the restrictions.
dracpanzer wrote: I am interested to see how it settles out about using Martyrdom AoF's. Is using an AoF a once per game turn ability or once per player turn? Although I suspect its on a game turn basis. We need to ask the question because their has never been any chance to use the 8ed AoF in anything but your own player turn.
Assuming its Game Turn, it does put some interesting pros in going second. Not that I would ever aim to go second but you can't always avoid it. And when stuck doing so at least you get a clean slate of units to choose from as your army is still waiting for your bottom half of the turn to get an AoF phase.
I see your point. I read it as player turn... in the AoF description in the Index, the word "turn" comes up twice in the paragraph: using AoFs "at the start of each of your turns" and limits on "more than one Act of Faith in the same turn" which obviously refers to Celestine and Imagifiers. If they aren't specifying that the first one means player turn and the second one means game turn, I'd assume the language refers to player turns consistently throughout. It's very possible they never considered this when they wrote the Index and I read too much intention in their word choice.
Based on that... If you lose a character during your own Fight phase, you're a little limited because you probably already used AoFs at the start of your (player) turn on choice units (Shooting w/ HB Rets, Fighting w/ Celestine) and won't be able to activate them again. You're more likely to lose a character during your opponent's Shooting or Fight phase, and since it isn't your turn, there's no limit as to who you can target with an AoF.
I think you're right about Movement... falling back in your opponent's turn is super juicy, because in my experience there's always something you'd rather have shooting than fighting. Moving a transport you're going to disembark on your own turn or disembarking a transport carrying a Canoness or Imagifier strike me as pretty potent too. Unless Celestine in engaged or a Melta Dom or HB Rets unit has a nice shot lined up already, the Movement option seems like a real winner.
MacPhail wrote: I see your point. I read it as player turn... in the AoF description in the Index, the word "turn" comes up twice in the paragraph: using AoFs "at the start of each of your turns" and limits on "more than one Act of Faith in the same turn" which obviously refers to Celestine and Imagifiers. If they aren't specifying that the first one means player turn and the second one means game turn, I'd assume the language refers to player turns consistently throughout. It's very possible they never considered this when they wrote the Index and I read too much intention in their word choice.
Based on that... If you lose a character during your own Fight phase, you're a little limited because you probably already used AoFs at the start of your (player) turn on choice units (Shooting w/ HB Rets, Fighting w/ Celestine) and won't be able to activate them again. You're more likely to lose a character during your opponent's Shooting or Fight phase, and since it isn't your turn, there's no limit as to who you can target with an AoF.
I think you're right about Movement... falling back in your opponent's turn is super juicy, because in my experience there's always something you'd rather have shooting than fighting. Moving a transport you're going to disembark on your own turn or disembarking a transport carrying a Canoness or Imagifier strike me as pretty potent too. Unless Celestine in engaged or a Melta Dom or HB Rets unit has a nice shot lined up already, the Movement option seems like a real winner.
There is not such thing as a Game Turn in 8th Edition. The Game is divided into Battle Rounds that consist of two Player Turns, one for each player.
This means that should you use Martyrdom on your opponent's turn, you are free to pick any unit that hasn't already used an Act of Faith during your opponent's turn, regardless of if they used one during your turn.
Is anyone else kind of thrilled about the blade? Considering that we didn't have a practical beatstick HQ before this point outside of Celestine, it's kind of great (mostly by virtue of being incredibly cheap and, unlike most other relics, multiplying the effectiveness of the base weapon several times over, rather than just giving a minor boost.)
A Canonness with this sword becomes a genuine threat in CQC against a whole host of opponents, especially if she's buffed by a nearby Ministorum Priest, and possibly even the +1 Attack on the Charge Warlord Trait. 6 S5 AP-3 D3 attacks is a heckuva lot of damage for a 49pt model.
Considering how cheap it is, at least - For a 49pt model, it's great. If it was expensive? Nah, junky, but for 49pts? Oooh lah lah.
That was leaked before. Probably why it isn't getting nerfed like the ynnari rule. Still very useful and fits with the fluff, and oddly helps with scaling AoF a bit.
Drider wrote: I still don't think it's something worth building a list around. Not with our current options anyway. It's a nice bonus to have but that's about it.
Perhaps not, I think the sweet spot is for two Imagifers in a list anyways. Coupled with your HQ's, gives you a decent alternative for those excess CP's not needed to ensure Celestine gets back up and for that must have use of the Deny Strategem. Though if you have a spare 15 or so points you could dip a little deeper into the Martyrdom pool.
I'm giving some consideration to dropping one of my 3 dominion squads with a repressor in favour of a second unit of seraphim with melta pistols and an imagifier. Without any extras it's a 42 point saving.
It basically boils down to. Drop all the stormbolterd, make the reprssors into immolators and drop the seraphim down to a a 5 model unit. Or drop the storm bolters, swap 1 unit of dominions for a unit of seraphim and an imagifier. Or do the same but not bother about the imagifier in favour of filling the seraphim squads a bit more. Or restructure my list and drop some command points.
Option 2 would give me.
Celestines w 1 geminae
7 seraphim with inferno
8 seraphim with inferno
Dominions with melta and repressor
Dominions with melta and repressor
Imagifiers
Greyfax
Primaris psyker
Callidus
Culexus
3x bss with heavy bolter
Knight crusader agc/tc/srp
I don't want to drop to less than 2 dominions because I need the vanguard to help zone out deepstrikes. I'm not a fan of dropping the command points because I can feed them into the thermal cannon, rotate ion shields, psychic tests, callidus deep strike, charges, as well as holding a couple for AoF and MI. So I suppose it just depends if I want to try for the triple turn 1 AoF to get celestines a d bot seraphim a double move or not bother and maybe start one unit in reserve. I'd be left with an imagifiers in my deployment with only has as a viable target... That or just try to suicide her on something.
Going to adepticon with a partner that is Death Korps, is there an fluff that mentions SOB and DK working together? (I know IG does all the time, but i want it to say DK)
Going to adepticon with a partner that is Death Korps, is there an fluff that mentions SOB and DK working together? (I know IG does all the time, but i want it to say DK)
Just need to set the theme is all.
This is more of a question for the 'background' board, I'm not personally aware of them working together except as small detachments each in larger forces.
That said, in terms of disposition they're both very compatible. The three major Covenant Sanctorum orders have major thematic ties to martyrdom (with Valorous Heart being the closest to DK, believing they are still atoning for the reign of blood) and so could be present to witness, assist, or join the DK in some desperate push. The three major Prioris orders are more varied in disposition and have stronger ties to Terra, they could be carrying out their own objectives and urging the DK to assist them, or in the case of the Argent Shroud, could be actively coming to the aid of the DK.
So does anyone else have problem of Ministorum units causing their army to lose out on the CA buffs? I was able to get around it partially by moving arco-flaggellants into the elite slot in a supreme command detachment but can’t find a home for my priest. Really wish they’d FAQ this to work based off the AM keyword instead of the AS.
PanzerLeader wrote: So does anyone else have problem of Ministorum units causing their army to lose out on the CA buffs? I was able to get around it partially by moving arco-flaggellants into the elite slot in a supreme command detachment but can’t find a home for my priest. Really wish they’d FAQ this to work based off the AM keyword instead of the AS.
I only play Sororitas after a few attempts at running a Priest along with my Repentia. But yes, its an issue.
Are exorcists still worth the price of admission? In all the games I've played this edition they've done next to nothing, and I can't help thinking the points would have been better spent on more crusader buses or a land raider from one of the other <IMPERIUM> sections.
jbeil wrote: Are exorcists still worth the price of admission? In all the games I've played this edition they've done next to nothing, and I can't help thinking the points would have been better spent on more crusader buses or a land raider from one of the other <IMPERIUM> sections.
For the damage? No, they are T8 and thats why they are costly. If you want something to stay on the table for a long time tho they will do.
They work best in pairs shooting at things like lascannon devastators, hellblasters, IG heavy weapons teams, dark reapers, or battlesuits in cover. They can chip a few wounds off vehicles, but to really get their points worth you have to gun for something expensive that they can kill quickly.
IandI wrote: They work best in pairs shooting at things like lascannon devastators, hellblasters, IG heavy weapons teams, dark reapers, or battlesuits in cover. They can chip a few wounds off vehicles, but to really get their points worth you have to gun for something expensive that they can kill quickly.
I feel the oppostite, i like them single, less threatening, will survive all game. WHen you have 2 or more of something in the back field your asking for them to go into your backfield to deal with it, when there is only 1, its more likely for that to not happen.
Hello, I'm kind of new to 8th and I am getting back into the hobby after years of absence. I ended up purchasing a really nice lot of battle sisters (an army I've always wanted, but now my kid is going to get). Part of what I don't have a full grip on is detachments vs. battleforged. Are sisters and imperial guard synergistic? Does it help me to use an IG spearhead or heavy detachment to support a largely infantry sisters army?
Sorry for the noob question, thank you for the advice.
deviantduck wrote:Exorcists are amazing at killing elite multiwound models that no one fields in the current meta.
I've used one in all my lists, and the only thing it's good for is attracting deepstrikers. It has completely failed at killing Primaris, Terminators, etc.
Waaaghpower wrote:Is anyone else kind of thrilled about the blade? Considering that we didn't have a practical beatstick HQ before this point outside of Celestine, it's kind of great (mostly by virtue of being incredibly cheap and, unlike most other relics, multiplying the effectiveness of the base weapon several times over, rather than just giving a minor boost.)
A Canonness with this sword becomes a genuine threat in CQC against a whole host of opponents, especially if she's buffed by a nearby Ministorum Priest, and possibly even the +1 Attack on the Charge Warlord Trait. 6 S5 AP-3 D3 attacks is a heckuva lot of damage for a 49pt model.
Considering how cheap it is, at least - For a 49pt model, it's great. If it was expensive? Nah, junky, but for 49pts? Oooh lah lah.
I don't think so. 2 Storm Bolters for my tanks would be a better use of the 4 points for the sword.
My Canoness, if I field her [I try not to, she's an active detriment to my list], rarely ever gets anywhere near enemies. If she does make it into combat with something, it's almost guaranteed to be too little too late, since she can't ride in transports with the rest of my troops.
deviantduck wrote:Exorcists are amazing at killing elite multiwound models that no one fields in the current meta.
I've used one in all my lists, and the only thing it's good for is attracting deepstrikers. It has completely failed at killing Primaris, Terminators, etc.
Waaaghpower wrote:Is anyone else kind of thrilled about the blade? Considering that we didn't have a practical beatstick HQ before this point outside of Celestine, it's kind of great (mostly by virtue of being incredibly cheap and, unlike most other relics, multiplying the effectiveness of the base weapon several times over, rather than just giving a minor boost.)
A Canonness with this sword becomes a genuine threat in CQC against a whole host of opponents, especially if she's buffed by a nearby Ministorum Priest, and possibly even the +1 Attack on the Charge Warlord Trait. 6 S5 AP-3 D3 attacks is a heckuva lot of damage for a 49pt model.
Considering how cheap it is, at least - For a 49pt model, it's great. If it was expensive? Nah, junky, but for 49pts? Oooh lah lah.
I don't think so. 2 Storm Bolters for my tanks would be a better use of the 4 points for the sword.
My Canoness, if I field her [I try not to, she's an active detriment to my list], rarely ever gets anywhere near enemies. If she does make it into combat with something, it's almost guaranteed to be too little too late, since she can't ride in transports with the rest of my troops.
FOr your list maybe not, but for other lists that Sword might be really good. I play a very in your face list and i'm excited to have my "must take" Canoness able to do something now.
Genestealer Jesse wrote: Hello, I'm kind of new to 8th and I am getting back into the hobby after years of absence. I ended up purchasing a really nice lot of battle sisters (an army I've always wanted, but now my kid is going to get). Part of what I don't have a full grip on is detachments vs. battleforged. Are sisters and imperial guard synergistic? Does it help me to use an IG spearhead or heavy detachment to support a largely infantry sisters army?
Sorry for the noob question, thank you for the advice.
Better synergy might be Celestine and some Dominions to add some punch to a Guard army of artillery screened by cheap infantry. Pure sisters makes a challenging list to play but they are excellent allies this edition.
How are people finding Crusaders? I did pretty well running a set down the flank towards an objective against Death Guard yesterday - they got wiped purely because the other guy poured three whole squads' fire into them but they took a hell of a pounding before they went, and they killed half a squad of CC Plague Marines.
How does this look?
-10 Crusaders in Sororitas Rhino
-6 Crusaders in Sororitas Rhino
-Imagnifer
-Hospitaller
-Ministorum Priest
-Canoness with Eviscerator & Inferno Pistol
You would need to fit them across two detachments - probably a spearhead and your troops - but paired with Celestine to make sure they get up the table fast, I can see these being a huge worry, especially for CC-weak armies like Tau.
jbeil wrote: I thought Sororitas Rhinos could transport adepta sororitas or adeptus ministorum models?
After double checking (it helps to look at the rules LOL), They can, b.c the rule says either or, but if they are sororitas they need to be the same order.
I never used any of the non sororitas and was going off memory. I went to double check (I normally dont assume my memory is right, i guess thats what i get).
-10 Crusaders in Sororitas Rhino
-6 Crusaders in Sororitas Rhino
-Imagnifer
-Hospitaller
-Ministorum Priest
-Canoness with Eviscerator & Inferno Pistol
What are the imagifier and hospitaller for? I thought they could only affect sororitas units?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mmmpi wrote: You can put them in a Chimera though.
A chimera is a little more expensive but does have a larger transport cap. Plus for a small investment you can take track guards and guarantee max movement speed at all times.
Tested out the new Relic blade on a Canoness, i gotta say, im always taking one now. It did insane amount of work!.
Turn 1 had her in between 3 Immolators for the buff, my opponent charged up a 5 man unit of bikes with a character. in 2 rounds of combat was able to kill them all.
I then went on for 2 more turns just walking around as a threat until turn 4 she died.
For 49pts for sure my MVP of the game. If he didnt charge up the bikes i was going to AoF move her to get within range anyways.
Tried the warlord trait just to say that i have. Its as pants as it is. This really should have been our source of not losing more than one model to morale.
Gotta say, the Martyrdom stratagem is sooo nice. Granted youre losing a valued character but their sacrifice is worth it.
Had a squad of inferno seraphim tear across the board 36" (martyrdom+aof+move) to ruin a landraiders day. Cannoness and celestine in combat and our dakka units getting 3 waves of attacks/shooting...not much stands before that and shrugs.
Not something to build a list around, but definately a very useful tool.
I played in a small, 3 round, 8 man RTT today. I took pure sisters. I took 3rd. The game I lost was only because my opponent made 90% of his saves through out the game. Nothing you can do when your opponents dice are red hot.
Some thoughts -
Exorcists, even at 135 points, are still hot garbage. I don't think it killed 135 points of models in 3 games combined.
Martyrdom, coupled with cheap, 15 point dialogues, are amazing. It makes the dialogues a huge issue for your opponent - do you kill them for an easy KP and give me an act of faith or do you let them charge you and tie you up. I was a bit hesitate at first but it's an a+.
The deny the witch on a 4+ is great too!
Repressors now feel 5-10 points over coasted. I will however never feel about falling back and shooting now.
The blade is really strong. It makes a forward canoness a huge threat.
I didn't bother with the warlord trait as I had a bunch 15 point dialogues running around that offered the same thing. That and 5 woman squads generally get wiped out before moral matters.
I never thought I'd say this but I think pure sisters might actually be top tier or close to it. It will take some tweaking but its shocking to see them being so strong.
I played in a small, 3 round, 8 man RTT today. I took pure sisters. I took 3rd. The game I lost was only because my opponent made 90% of his saves through out the game. Nothing you can do when your opponents dice are red hot.
Some thoughts -
Exorcists, even at 135 points, are still hot garbage. I don't think it killed 135 points of models in 3 games combined.
Martyrdom, coupled with cheap, 15 point dialogues, are amazing. It makes the dialogues a huge issue for your opponent - do you kill them for an easy KP and give me an act of faith or do you let them charge you and tie you up. I was a bit hesitate at first but it's an a+.
The deny the witch on a 4+ is great too!
Repressors now feel 5-10 points over coasted. I will however never feel about falling back and shooting now.
The blade is really strong. It makes a forward canoness a huge threat.
I didn't bother with the warlord trait as I had a bunch 15 point dialogues running around that offered the same thing. That and 5 woman squads generally get wiped out before moral matters.
I never thought I'd say this but I think pure sisters might actually be top tier or close to it. It will take some tweaking but its shocking to see them being so strong.
Grats on the strong showing!!!
I love the idea of the Exorcist, like you said though, even at 135 points they don't pull their weight. I have tried three of them in an otherwise foot Sisters list parked behind three squads of heavy bolter Rets. The Rets definitely hit harder. Maybe the codex will give them the AoF rule and 2d3 shots, might take them then for more reasons than "I just love ridiculous church tanks!"
I think the Imagifer is the better choice for Martyrdom shenanigans over the Dialogus. The Dialogus is cheaper for sure but is pointless otherwise in a primarily MSU army. I would bring the Hospitaller over the Dialogus. The Imagifer and Hospitaller, as well as the Repentia (I try to run Repentia every chance I get even if just a couple) Mistress at least do something when they aren't being killed by your opponent.
4+ Who cares what Magnus rolled on his psychic test is awesome especially since it seems to make Magnus whine like a little girl about how unfair it is.
I will now never feel bad about using the Repressor, not sure if its overcosted, but it's certainly fair at 110 points.
The BoA certainly looks mean, my Canoness hasn't had the chance to kill anything with it yet. Apparently its scary because none of my three opponents that have faced it have even come near it.
I don't know apart from Soup what top tier is, did Celestine's point change make her less enticing to Soup players? Sisters are certainly strong even after the FAQ's and CA. Surprising to my opponents for sure. Am I being cynical in thinking that its the perfect setup for Sisters getting their very own Codex in the first year of an edition just to have it ruin everything they had going? Nah, they wouldn't do that...
I think tossing in 2-3 15 point Dialogues actually works really well. Especially in an ITC mission game -
Does your opponent take the bait and take head hunter (hello a free phase) or do they let them run amuck?
My 15 point Dialogues more than (I ran 2) did exactly what I wanted them to. They either screened out deep strikers, locked up a tank in or unit in combat or suicided in to get my another act of faith.
Celestines point increase pretty much just means that unless you are really strapped for points your taking her BFFs. Theres almost no reason not to now. However they make her incredibly durable.
I'm not entirely sold that a flat 3 damage fixes the Exorcist's problems. To be honest, I'm not sure what fixes the Exorcist at all short of us just accepting it's best suited for killing bikes and TEQ and even then it's just not what it was.
Taikishi wrote: I'm not entirely sold that a flat 3 damage fixes the Exorcist's problems. To be honest, I'm not sure what fixes the Exorcist at all short of us just accepting it's best suited for killing bikes and TEQ and even then it's just not what it was.
The problem is that exorcists cost too much and are too random for what you get. S8 isn't what is used to be. It wounds most thing's it wants to shoot at on 3s and can't double out t4 anymore.
Furthermore it doesn't know what it wants to be. It has the wounds and toughness of a heavy tank but the damage output of a light artillery piece. Point for point a double las razorback, auto canon dread, or a basilisk are far more efficient.
Sure you could have the best hot streak of your life and do 18 wounds to something but that is few and far between. On average you can expect to do 4-5 wounds a turn but 135 points 5 wounds is utter garbage. A single las canon can do that for far less.
Without getting too wish listy in my opinion there a handful of ways to fix it. Reduce it’s points costs so much that it competes with heavy bolter retributers for the slot. Give it the russ rule of shooting twice if it basically doesn’t move at the same target. Change the damage value of the gun to a flat 3 or allow it to use acts of faith. All of these, expect for even further points decrease, would be reasonable changes.
Taikishi wrote: I'm not entirely sold that a flat 3 damage fixes the Exorcist's problems. To be honest, I'm not sure what fixes the Exorcist at all short of us just accepting it's best suited for killing bikes and TEQ and even then it's just not what it was.
The problem is that exorcists cost too much and are too random for what you get. S8 isn't what is used to be. It wounds most thing's it wants to shoot at on 3s and can't double out t4 anymore.
Furthermore it doesn't know what it wants to be. It has the wounds and toughness of a heavy tank but the damage output of a light artillery piece. Point for point a double las razorback, auto canon dread, or a basilisk are far more efficient.
Sure you could have the best hot streak of your life and do 18 wounds to something but that is few and far between. On average you can expect to do 4-5 wounds a turn but 135 points 5 wounds is utter garbage. A single las canon can do that for far less.
Without getting too wish listy in my opinion there a handful of ways to fix it. Reduce it’s points costs so much that it competes with heavy bolter retributers for the slot. Give it the russ rule of shooting twice if it basically doesn’t move at the same target. Change the damage value of the gun to a flat 3 or allow it to use acts of faith. All of these, expect for even further points decrease, would be reasonable changes.
You are forgetting it's T8, though. T8 is few and far between and makes it lot more survivable compared to the other 3 things you referenced. It's close to playable, but not quite. If it lost it's -1 when moving that would make it a bit better. You can then at least dance a bit. But, if i'm wishlisting, I'd want the flat 3 damage, or 2D3 missiles, or 2D6 shots at 24". Just... something a little more, but not over the top. Then again.. I won't cry if it gets to be over the top for a few months.
I'm not forgetting anything. The problem is the Exorcist went from a semi-reliable tank killer (25% chance of getting an "explodes" result) and MC killer in previous editions to being unable to do either of those things well.
Against a T6 or T7 MC or vehicle with a 3+ save, the Exorcist is only going to average 3 wounds per turn. In 7E, it averaged 1.17HP per turn against AV12 with an ~26% chance of getting a 7+ on the damage table against said AV12 vehicle. Against T6 MCs in 7th Edition, it dealt 1.94 wounds per turn and had a lot less wounds to chew through.
Between glancing and penetrating hits, you were probably going to at least wreck or severely disable a non-Land Raider in one turn. As for MCs, it could weaken one to a point where your meltaguns/multi-meltas would finish it off or visa versa.
Now? There are far, far better tools for the job and those same tools also deal with heavy infantry better than the Exorcist.
Simply put, the Exorcist lost its niche and didn't really gain one in return. 3 damage doesn't even begin to return it to its niche, unlike the quad-las predator which can at least dish out 5 wounds per turn on average. Though, honestly? The Leman Russ battle cannon has the same problem as well and only has a -2 save to show for it.
Spoiler:
Now: 7/2 average shots * 2/3 hit * 2/3 wound * 2 average damage
Then: 7/2 avg shots * 2/3 hit * 1/2 glance or pen
Explodes: 7/2 avg shots * 2/3 hit * 1/3 pen only * 1/3 "explodes"
Old wounding: 7/2 avg shots * 2/3 hit * 5/6 wound with no save
Edit: Ran numbers for AV12, meant to type AV12, typed 13 instead. Corrected typo.
For me the biggest problem with the Exorcist is the random number of shots. I don't think I have spent as many CP re-rolls on all other things combined in 8ed as I have the roll for number of shots with my Exorcists. Standard 3 damage would be great, but only tossing up one shot in a turn takes all the thunder out of it when you miss your one to hit roll.
I love the model, love how easy it is to get cover with it and still be able to shoot. I still play them regularly, always with at least two Exo's if I bring them. They have our best range and are fun parked next to a Canoness and some Rets in the center of our backfield. For me they are always in that 35% part of my army that I don't fully optimize to be competitive.
So far, the other 65% (and some cp re-rolls) has been more than enough to make up the difference.
Assuming I want to stay pure sisters, what would you recommend in place of an Exorcist? I recently found that multi-melta retributors are terrifying at medium range, and within 12' if they hit something, it is dead. Would it be worth spending the points/power on a 10 woman squad of multimelta retributors and using the bolters as ablative wounds, or would an immolator be a better go? I'm open to the idea of suicide Dominions in a melta-immolator to vanguard, then Act of Faith their way onto the board (Celestine's AOF to march up the board, 2+ AOF to fire the immolator, then regular dismount + shoot) in order to pop a big target, but that also seems like a lot of points to spend on a unit that will be stuck on a limb in front of the enemy where they'll quickly vanish.
Is it maybe worth trying Heavy Bolter Retributors in order to take advantage of weight of dice against heavy targets?
Because the exorcist sucks you aren't going to get good long range anti-tank shots in pure sisters. Take melta-dominion squads in repressors for your anti tank. Or melta-seraphim squads.
Melta Doms are really strong in repressors because you vanguard move 12" toward a tank. Move 12" toward the tank, and fire out of the fire points. If the enemy blows up the tank next turn but doesn't kill the Doms, you can AoF a second round of shooting from the Doms.
Yep agree with cmspano, i take 3 units of Doms in Repressors and a unit of Seraphim, my Seraphim normally does the most wounds oddly, i'm even thinking about playing 2 units of them now that they are cheaper (but i cant AoF the 2nd unit easily, im thinking of keeping them in Reserves until the other uni dies).
I prefer my Dominions to run with Stormbolters. Two 5 Girl Seraphim squads with four inferno pistols are less than the price of a squad of melta Doms in a repressor, with twice the shots.
dracpanzer wrote: I prefer my Dominions to run with Stormbolters. Two 5 Girl Seraphim squads with four inferno pistols are less than the price of a squad of melta Doms in a repressor, with twice the shots.
But no were near as survivable and no scout+shoot turn 1. It depends on you and your meta i guess.
What has everyone found to be useful versus alpha legion cultist. I know marine scouts are super good but what can we do with sisters. Repressors with dominions only have a 50/50 vs them so not the best
IVIOOSE wrote: What has everyone found to be useful versus alpha legion cultist. I know marine scouts are super good but what can we do with sisters. Repressors with dominions only have a 50/50 vs them so not the best
I think your best bet is probably heavy bolter retributors, or if you're open to bending the definitions of 'sisters' a bit, you could pick up some crusaders to use as a frontline buffer against mobs. Failing that, an immolator with the flamer and either flamer or storm bolter dominions is a decent solution, but it's a bit pricy compared to what you're trying to kill. Depending on how your opponent is willing to spend CP, you might only need to kill ten or so in a single turn, and the morale should take care of the rest.
jbeil wrote: Assuming I want to stay pure sisters, what would you recommend in place of an Exorcist? I recently found that multi-melta retributors are terrifying at medium range, and within 12' if they hit something, it is dead. Would it be worth spending the points/power on a 10 woman squad of multimelta retributors and using the bolters as ablative wounds, or would an immolator be a better go? I'm open to the idea of suicide Dominions in a melta-immolator to vanguard, then Act of Faith their way onto the board (Celestine's AOF to march up the board, 2+ AOF to fire the immolator, then regular dismount + shoot) in order to pop a big target, but that also seems like a lot of points to spend on a unit that will be stuck on a limb in front of the enemy where they'll quickly vanish.
Is it maybe worth trying Heavy Bolter Retributors in order to take advantage of weight of dice against heavy targets?
Unfortunately, you can't use your AoF on any Sisters vehicles. (for now)
jbeil wrote: Assuming I want to stay pure sisters, what would you recommend in place of an Exorcist? I recently found that multi-melta retributors are terrifying at medium range, and within 12' if they hit something, it is dead. Would it be worth spending the points/power on a 10 woman squad of multimelta retributors and using the bolters as ablative wounds, or would an immolator be a better go? I'm open to the idea of suicide Dominions in a melta-immolator to vanguard, then Act of Faith their way onto the board (Celestine's AOF to march up the board, 2+ AOF to fire the immolator, then regular dismount + shoot) in order to pop a big target, but that also seems like a lot of points to spend on a unit that will be stuck on a limb in front of the enemy where they'll quickly vanish.
Is it maybe worth trying Heavy Bolter Retributors in order to take advantage of weight of dice against heavy targets?
Unfortunately, you can't use your AoF on any Sisters vehicles. (for now)
To add on top off that, each unit can only perform one AoF during the AoF portion of the turn. It seems like Null was thinking that was possible. If not Null, my apologies.
dracpanzer wrote: I prefer my Dominions to run with Stormbolters. Two 5 Girl Seraphim squads with four inferno pistols are less than the price of a squad of melta Doms in a repressor, with twice the shots.
But no were near as survivable and no scout+shoot turn 1. It depends on you and your meta i guess.
True, though they are eligible for a first turn AoF up behind a screen of vehicles, move, shoot, then assault.
Yeah. Just makes me think the Geminae still aren't worth the additional points. I'm going to keep running Celestine solo while thinking up counters to multiple fire raptors...
IVIOOSE wrote: Take seraphim and tie them up in combat then move and shoot raptor
Tying stuff up with Seraphim doesn't usually work - even basic MEQ will score a load of wounds and between poor rolls and morale, you're going to lose too many Seraphim to make it worth it. I'm finding that Seraphim work very differently to most jump troops; they are there to hop around and fire off rounds, and then GTFO to the next target.
The only thing seraphim can really effectively tie up aside from really week understrength units, are vehicles on account of the unlikelyhood of the vehicle scoring a hit in combat.
Otherwise, they are a driveby (flyby) unit. Literally embody their old Hit and Run rule...only the hitting is bolts and inferno shots hitting their targets, not the aeraphim themselves whipping things...unless youve got lucky dice.
i use seraphim to tie things up all the time to not get shot at. a lot of people will string out their units to maximize board control so if you do it properly you are only going to get hit by 2-3 models which usually kills 1 seraphim. sure they have their turn to attack but a lot of meq armies are not pumping out tons of attacks unless you charge into deathcompany or something which you should not do, better to kill them with shooting. and only reason i like that vs raptors is then they cant shoot at you and then fly by them and blast with melta. very basic play for sisters.
Just played in the renegade open and took 6 units of 9 seraphim and it was an absolute blast. im enjoying them more then grey knights that i took to nova and iron halo. i even preached to pablo on chapter tactics that seraphim are a hidden gem that i want to play more of.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: The only thing seraphim can really effectively tie up aside from really week understrength units, are vehicles on account of the unlikelyhood of the vehicle scoring a hit in combat.
Otherwise, they are a driveby (flyby) unit. Literally embody their old Hit and Run rule...only the hitting is bolts and inferno shots hitting their targets, not the aeraphim themselves whipping things...unless youve got lucky dice.
IVIOOSE wrote: i use seraphim to tie things up all the time to not get shot at. a lot of people will string out their units to maximize board control so if you do it properly you are only going to get hit by 2-3 models which usually kills 1 seraphim. sure they have their turn to attack but a lot of meq armies are not pumping out tons of attacks unless you charge into deathcompany or something which you should not do, better to kill them with shooting. and only reason i like that vs raptors is then they cant shoot at you and then fly by them and blast with melta. very basic play for sisters.
Just played in the renegade open and took 6 units of 9 seraphim and it was an absolute blast. im enjoying them more then grey knights that i took to nova and iron halo. i even preached to pablo on chapter tactics that seraphim are a hidden gem that i want to play more of.
Yeah Seraphim are very good. With the 28% point increase of the repressors I find myself now taking 2-3 units of Seraphim and 3 (instead of 4) repressor dominion units.
Happy Monday. I like hearing about your folks’ victories, so I’ll share mine. I took 1st in a 14 player RTT this weekend. This was my first tournament win, so I’m fairly stoked. My list was as follows:
1850/2 Detachment
Outrider
STC + 1 Buddy
5x Seraphim – 6x BP, 4x Inf
5x Dominion – 4x Melta, 1x BP 5x Dominion – 4x Melta, 1x BP 5x Dominion – 4x Melta, 1x BP Repressor – 2x HF, 1x SB Repressor – 2x HF, 1x SB Repressor – 2x HF, 1x SB 5x Retributors – 4x HB, 1x SB 5x Retributors – 4x HB, 1x SB
Please excuse my painting. I've only had the Xiphons for less than a week. The rest you can call me lazy though. I've had them for awhile and just can't seem to finish them.
It was a 1 day, 3 Round RTT. We use the combined missions pack with 2:15 (man, I hate less than 2:45) minute rounds. I went 2nd every single game. Below is a quick summary:
Round 1 – The Relic vs Tau
Spoiler:
He was a pretty casual player and didn’t have the strongest list. It was a mix of a little of everything. On top of that he rolled really, really, badly. He took close to an hour to play top of 1. We only made it through 2 turns. I won 18-2. Celestine left Shadowsun at 1 wound, so I didn’t get Slay the Warlord. He would have been tabled after 3.
Moment of note: The Xiphons hit Longstrike with 6 lascannon wounds that got through doing a total of 9 damage, 3x 1s, 3x 2s. I used 2 CP on rerolling the damages. One was a 2 turning into a 1, one was a 1 turning into a 2.
Round 2 – The Scouring vs Admech/GK
Spoiler:
He’s a pretty competitive player and for this tourney he ran 9x Iron Striders (the lance chickens), 3x DreadKnights (2 Grandmasters), a Techmarine, a Strike Squad, and 2x Onager Duncrawlers. Top of 1 he killed 2 repressors, half a retributor squad, and 2 Seraphim. Both Xiphons were at half health. Most of the board was engaged in assault. I may have deployed up too far. He made all his assaults except 1 of the DKs. My bottom of 1 was really ineffective. I had a lot of misses and he had a lot of saves. Celestine started doing work. Top of 2, the game took a turn. He failed every psychic test he attempted barring 1 Smite (thanks culexus!) that I rolled a 6 on and cancelled. He killed both Xiphons and they both crashed and burned dealing mortal wounds to a strider and an onager. He killed my last repressor, a squad of Doms, and Celestine for the first time. His assaults were lack luster and he failed a 5” charge to kill some more Doms with a DK. On my bottom of 2, Celestine and the Canoness stood back to back and the camera started to spin around them like it was a Michael Bay movie. They killed Iron Chickens left and right like a Slap Chop vs a Tomato. I had killed 6 of 9 Iron striders, oddly enough 2 from each of the 3 units, and all three DKs. The strike squad died on the backfield (I’ll come back to that) and all he had left were 3 striders, 2x onagers, and the techmarine. Top of 3 he did some objective positioning but didn’t kill anything. Bottom of 3, I cleaned up the 3 remaining striders and Celestine killed an Onager. At this point we ran out of time. I won 18-0. I didn’t get linebreaker. He would have been tabled on 4 since he only had an Onager and a Techmarine.
Moment of Note: I deploy my backfield with Rets and an Imagifer on an objective with the 2 Xiphons on either side to create a protective bubble for deepstrikers against the rets. There wasn’t room for a DK, but there was room for the strike squad. It dropped in, cast smite, which I cancelled, and periled killing 2 dudes. He then charged me, and I killed 2 more in overwatch. His last guy failed the charge. I ignored him turn 1, and he assaulted me turn 2 with the 1 guy and he died in overwatch again. We laughed at how hilariously impotent that unit was that game.
Round 3 – Secure and Control vs Admech
Spoiler:
This guy’s a really good player with a solid list. Cawl, 2x Onagers, 2x Laser Chickens, 3x Destroyers, Tech Priest Dominus, Kasetellan Robots, 2x Vanguard, and Sicarian infiltrators. Top of 1 he removed 35 of my 36 total Repressor wounds and a couple rets by the infiltrators his mistake was moving his Vanguard guys up a bit. Those Kasetllan Robots are no joke. On bottom of 1, the Culexus dropped in back and made his assault on an Onager tying it up the rest of the game. My 1 wound repressor tore up some vanguard guys with 2x flamers. Degraded autohits for the win! The Retributors shot up the Sicarions and the Canoness ended up finished them off in assault without breaking a sweat. The Xiphons plinked away at stuff but nothing of noted. The Seraphim and Celestine moved up the board and were given short easy assaults for the other vanguard squad. I rolled high on both and was able to assault behind them and get me within consolidation range of the robots. The repressor assaulted the 4-man vanguard squad it burned and they killed it on overwatch. It blew up and kill 3 of the 4 guys. The Doms inside hopped out and then charged the 1 guy left killing him. Celestine and the seraphim erased the other vanguard squad and consolidated into the robots. This is where I learned that robots can’t move away from combat. Holy crap, happy accident. Turn 2, he decided to throw Cawl and Celestine. I’m not sure why. The seraphim and the robots had a happy slap fight the rest of the game. The Xiphons and Retributors killed an Onager and Tech priest. My other Doms were midfield sitting on maelstrom points. We were pressed for time and played 2 more rounds in under 15 minutes. Celestine killed Cawl and the Destroyers died to various shooting. So, we ended up tying the primary and I won Maelstrom by 1. The Culexus got linebreaker, and Cawl was Slay the Warlord. It ended up being a 15-5 win.
Moment of Note: The Canoness with the relic blade is, to quote George Washington, “Amazeballs.” She dealt the 6 wounds to the 3 Sicarian without even thinking about it. Cawl can dish out some damage, but Celestine can grin and bear it like a champ. This was my first real Admech game and holy crap they can do some shooting. The canticles are still a bit hard to understand, I need to do more reading.
Summary: It was a fun tourney and my first win. A lot of people there have a different attitude about Sisters now. We also generated a lot of toys to donate since the entry fee for the tourney was to bring toys to donate. Good times were had by all.
Amishprn86 wrote: I've need looked at the Xiphon Interceptor s before what are the general points on them and would you take them again?
Well, I ordered them, and they were 210 points. Then chapter approved came out while they were in the mail and they're 240 now. They move 20-50", BS3 (BS2 against units with Fly), T7, W11, SV3+. They have 2x Twin linked Lascannons and 1 missile that's heavy 3 at S6 AP-3, D3. So they could potentially do 33 wounds to 1 target on perfect rolling. They're also -1 to hit. Essentially they're a laspred with extra missiles and -1 to hit. They fill the long range hole we have. This is the only 3 games I played them in but I was overall happy with their performance. I'm sad they don't have an invuln, but we sisters are spoiled by our shield of faith.
Nice batreps, and well done!!
I had never thought about the Xiphon before, but it looks like a great stand in for the Exorcist.
I’m glad the Sisters are still getting some attention.
Has anyone had any good experiences/success with Uriah Jacobus in 8th?
I came across a great looking model at raging heroes that id happily proxy in. Yet try as i might, i cant get excited at his rules.
For a named character hes really...meh...
Aside from offering +1ld bubble, i could get more use out of multiple priests or...just never looking at his entry again...
I like Priests, but i never take more than 2 HQ's 1 is Celestine and the other is a Canoness.
If i had to play a larger game and had to take another HQ, i would drop my Priest for Jacobus.
I would do this b.c a Priest and a 2nd Canoness with a SB (1st Canoness is PS with the Relic) is only ?12pts? cheaper than Jacobus.
There are a few Pros and Cons.
Pros
1 Less spot in a transport
1 Less KP on the table
He on average does more damage than a SB Canoness
10man units he is better due to LD bubble
Cons
The new Stratagem means its 1 less character on the table
He is 12? (maybe 14pts) more costly that is over all 6-7 SB's
He is 100pts
I also play a unit of 9 Arco-Flagellants, so for me needed a 3rd HQ he is a bit better b.c i might lose 3-5 of them after a round of combat (if they didnt kill the opponent, and most the time they do but then will get shot up completely), I also have 2 units of Seraphim up front with my Priest and Acro's, so for me the change is worth it. I honestly wouldnt take him Unless you are doing 10mans or something like what i like to play. I'm hyper aggressive and take casualties easily.
For 105 points I can take three Priests, increasing the number of units that get access to War Hymns.
For 85 point I can take Inquisitor Greyfax, who gets Smite and Dominate plus:
* +1 to her Deny the Witch rolls
* Is basically a sniper against Psyker and Daemon characters
* has better wargear (master crafted condemnor, master crafted power sword)
* re-rolls faield to-hit and to-wound rolls against Psykers and Chaos
* hands out Leadership 10 to friendly Imperium units within 6" instead of +1Ld to friendly Ministorum and Guard units within 6"
For 100 points (the same cost as Jacobus) I can take Coteaz, who also gets Smite and Dominate and also passes out Ld 10 to friendly Imperium units within 6", but also gets:
* re-rolled failed to-hit and to-wound rolls against Chaos and Daemons
* has superior wargear (Terminator armor, assault d6 bolter and is S6, -3 save, 3 damage in melee)
* gives units within 6" the ability to fire Overwatch on infiltrators and deep striking units.
Is anyone else hoping we might see a return to the jump-pack Canoness of 3rd edition? As things stand we've basically got a binary choice between a goddess or a lady who doesn't move very fast and dies quite easily. Some sort of intermediate option would be a nice change...
jbeil wrote: Is anyone else hoping we might see a return to the jump-pack Canoness of 3rd edition? As things stand we've basically got a binary choice between a goddess or a lady who doesn't move very fast and dies quite easily. Some sort of intermediate option would be a nice change...
Between the Canoness and Celestine? I would prefer a lower option myself. With the CA point changes a inferno pistol eviscerator Canoness isn't really all that expensive. Though a supreme command detachment full of them in a transport alongside my Celestine/Dom/Repressor/Retributor outrider detachment has been entertaining and effective.
jbeil wrote: Is anyone else hoping we might see a return to the jump-pack Canoness of 3rd edition? As things stand we've basically got a binary choice between a goddess or a lady who doesn't move very fast and dies quite easily. Some sort of intermediate option would be a nice change...
Between the Canoness and Celestine? I would prefer a lower option myself. With the CA point changes a inferno pistol eviscerator Canoness isn't really all that expensive. Though a supreme command detachment full of them in a transport alongside my Celestine/Dom/Repressor/Retributor outrider detachment has been entertaining and effective.
A Jump Canoness with a Inferno Pistol and CCW would be AMAZING, I would pay the 80pts for that lol.
jbeil wrote: Is anyone else hoping we might see a return to the jump-pack Canoness of 3rd edition? As things stand we've basically got a binary choice between a goddess or a lady who doesn't move very fast and dies quite easily. Some sort of intermediate option would be a nice change...
Been thinking the same exact thing lately. Other than points tweaks, new Traits, Stratagems and Relics, what could GW possibly do to change / add units to our existing model line? I’ve thought cheap Palatines from back in 3rd, and Jump pack Canoness. What else could GW do to add choices to our Codex?
On a tactical note, with the changes in cost for Celestine, is taking 2 Geminae an auto-include? I’ve been tinkering with the idea of just one Gem and using the saved points on other upgrades. Does the 2nd make a large difference in survivability?
Used to wield non-pinata Canoness in 3-4ed all the time. Inferno, Eviscrator, 2+ save and ignore the first instantdeath. That was one annoying broad to kill.
I've never run Celestine without both Geminae and I have yet to regret spending the extra points. They do a fantastic job of eating up overwatch and power fist hits for the Angel of Destruction.
If you have a nice car, you pay extra for good insurance.
@Mr Morden—- Yes, plus the jump packs from the Seraphim could easily be put on a Canoness (how I converted mine back in 3rd).
My point is that given our present line of models, GW’s options are so limited they could give us at least the two things that would be easy “add-ons” to our Codex- jump Canoness and cheap HQ Palatines.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Blightstar wrote: Used to wield non-pinata Canoness in 3-4ed all the time. Inferno, Eviscrator, 2+ save and ignore the first instantdeath. That was one annoying broad to kill.
Yes she was... the 2+ became 2++ with the Act of Faith. She could fly and if she could survive to swing back could do some major damage.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
IandI wrote: I've never run Celestine without both Geminae and I have yet to regret spending the extra points. They do a fantastic job of eating up overwatch and power fist hits for the Angel of Destruction.
If you have a nice car, you pay extra for good insurance.
IandI wrote: I've never run Celestine without both Geminae and I have yet to regret spending the extra points. They do a fantastic job of eating up overwatch and power fist hits for the Angel of Destruction.
If you have a nice car, you pay extra for good insurance.
What is the point of having a nice car with good insurance if you can't afford the gas?
IandI wrote: I've never run Celestine without both Geminae and I have yet to regret spending the extra points. They do a fantastic job of eating up overwatch and power fist hits for the Angel of Destruction.
If you have a nice car, you pay extra for good insurance.
What is the point of having a nice car with good insurance if you can't afford the gas?
In 8th I've only ever run her with 1 of the twins but it has performed well enough for me. The second twin was a points issue before CA and it is now, too, but a more arguable one. The second one is now a bargain at 25, but that's still 25 points I need elsewhere since Repressors went up as well.. Most games don't go beyond 3 turns anymore and I find she dies the most in assault by mass attacks forcing the 1s. If she dies by shooting then I failed at screening her. Plus, once she takes a single damage she's gotta keep taking it, even if you get a twin back.
That's just been my take on it. There certainly isn't a right or wrong answer.
As an aside, I can't get Dracpanzer's Canoness Clown Car out of my mind. I'm tempted to order 4 more Canonesses today for giggles.
I have always run Celestine with both Geminae in 8ed. Take your first wounds on the Geminae, using Healing Tears when you can. Once you are forced to take wounds on Celestine make sure your opponent has to target her. Once she resurrects, I like to use an AoF to rez a Geminae with 1 wound and then Healing Tears the other.
I only tend to get conservative with her after she has popped her rez and is without her Geminae. Being able to put both back on the table each turn (even if one is under strength and assuming Celestine has no need to fight or move twice) has made her extremely durable for me.
At 250 points for the unit and now the reduced cost of the Geminae for me it's a no brainer.
Did anyone ask Santa for any 40k stuff for Xmas? Shortly after did you purge him for obviously being, albeit benevolent, some sort of warp entity? Suffer not the Claus to live.
dracpanzer wrote: I have always run Celestine with both Geminae in 8ed. Take your first wounds on the Geminae, using Healing Tears when you can. Once you are forced to take wounds on Celestine make sure your opponent has to target her. Once she resurrects, I like to use an AoF to rez a Geminae with 1 wound and then Healing Tears the other.
I only tend to get conservative with her after she has popped her rez and is without her Geminae. Being able to put both back on the table each turn (even if one is under strength and assuming Celestine has no need to fight or move twice) has made her extremely durable for me.
At 250 points for the unit and now the reduced cost of the Geminae for me it's a no brainer.
How are you using her to best effect? Character sniping?
I’ve been running her with one Geminae since she can at least throw a Krak grenade offensively. Does the extra 2 wounds really make a difference for Celestine? I find against most characters she can take on with one Gem, while against the real baddies (Mortarion, Guilliman, Kaldor) it doesn’t matter if she brought 2 Gems she’s still gonna get smacked.
It it worth wrapping special weapon squads in extra squad members? I'm thinking about adding five bolters in my retributors (one squad of multi meltas, one squad of heavy flamers) as ablative wounds, but is this still a viable strategy? Will this make them more survivable, or just a bigger target?
dracpanzer wrote: I have always run Celestine with both Geminae in 8ed. Take your first wounds on the Geminae, using Healing Tears when you can. Once you are forced to take wounds on Celestine make sure your opponent has to target her. Once she resurrects, I like to use an AoF to rez a Geminae with 1 wound and then Healing Tears the other.
I only tend to get conservative with her after she has popped her rez and is without her Geminae. Being able to put both back on the table each turn (even if one is under strength and assuming Celestine has no need to fight or move twice) has made her extremely durable for me.
At 250 points for the unit and now the reduced cost of the Geminae for me it's a no brainer.
How are you using her to best effect? Character sniping?
I’ve been running her with one Geminae since she can at least throw a Krak grenade offensively. Does the extra 2 wounds really make a difference for Celestine? I find against most characters she can take on with one Gem, while against the real baddies (Mortarion, Guilliman, Kaldor) it doesn’t matter if she brought 2 Gems she’s still gonna get smacked.
I generally try to remove as many of my opponents units as fast as I can. So big baddies tend to get left to their devices until I have killed everything else. Celestine gets sent against my opponents squishy backfield units. Geminae will take the overwatch, try to kill off the target in my opponents fight phase. AoF somewhere else, repeat while the repressor Doms continue to focus the rest of the army down.
The Canoness Clown Bus seems to take on the Bigger targets better than Celestine does. A lot more higher Str attacks as well as a lot more targets. Haven't run them against all the big meanies yet though.
jbeil wrote: It it worth wrapping special weapon squads in extra squad members? I'm thinking about adding five bolters in my retributors (one squad of multi meltas, one squad of heavy flamers) as ablative wounds, but is this still a viable strategy? Will this make them more survivable, or just a bigger target?
Heavy bolter Retributors get a few extra bodies, but I just got a few more heavy bolters off eBay so I'll probably have to drop them and take a second squad.
Dominions don't get any spare squad members, at T3 and a high threat profile they're gonna get killed ASAP so I don't spend the extra points. One extra girl might be ok in case their ride explodes and she can eat a mortal wound but once they get out they shoot once and croak immediately.
I'm meant to be playing tomorrow against the Grey Knight player I mentioned earlier in the week. It's a power-rating league, and I'm thinking of running the following list:
Canoness with Blade of Admonition, inferno pistol - 4
Celestine and twins - 14
10 Battle Sisters with storm bolter, heavy bolter- 8
10 Battle Sisters with storm bolter, condemnor bolter- 8
10 Battle Sisters with storm bolter, heavy bolter - 8
10 Retributors with multi-meltas - 10
Venerable Land Raider - 19
I'm considering dropping the bodies around the Retributors in favour of an Imagnifer or a Rhino, but I don't want to leave the big guns vulnerable. The dialogus is just there to bring the list to 80, and perhaps to give the retributors a chance to reroll failed saves. The plan is mostly to sit back in my half of the board, fire as many shots as possible, and rely on the Crusaders as a counter to any close-combat shenanigans my opponents throw at me. The Land Raider and St.Whackamole will delay the enemy as long as possible and pop any dangerous-looking vehicles. I know there's at least one Emperor's Children opponent as well, I gave them a good licking last time in a list built more around Seraphim with Celestine.
pretre wrote: If it's power rating, then all the superiors should have combi weapons and eviscerators, give the priest upgrades, etc.
Also, What's with the land raider? Do you have access to any SOB transports? They are much better than the LR for this list.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, do you have access to Heavy bolters? I would swap the 10 MM Rets for 2x 5 Rets with HB.
Sorry, I should have mentioned the Priest and the Superiors all have fancy kit, I wasn't sure if we're allowed to list in details outside of the army list section. The land raider is there as an alternative to two exorcists; I've just found that exorcists really disappoint every time I bring them, and the land raider seems much better at eating firepower and dishing it back out.
If I replace the Land Raider with two exorcists I save three power, which combined with dropping the dialogus leaves me enough for a whole rhino, or with a bit of jiggery-pokery I could find something else to drop to bring another squad of dominions. I could bring four heavy bolters in total, but I'm not sure how I would deal with really heavy armour without the meltas or land raider. I could switch the heavy bolters in the squads for heavy flamers.
Should the sisters superior really have eviscerators? I'd have thought the 5+ to hit would make them a waste compared to a power weapon or so?
@jbeil- keep the LR, it’ll be more effective than two Exos, and either bring the Rhino or fill in troops with meltas.
Don’t put eviscerators on any “Sisters” -except Canonesses.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I’m playing a few competitive games this week and am taking the following list of Sisters with Guard support. Critiques welcome...
————-
Outrider and Auxiliary Detachments
Celestine, 2 Geminae
6x 5-Dominions with SBs, Repressors with HF and 2x SBs 8 Seraphims, 4x Inferno Pistols
Tallarn Battalion Detachment
<the following units all outflank>
Warlord Commander (trait allows all AM units within 6” of him to re-roll failed wounds on one enemy unit specified after deployment)
Tank Commander, Exec Plasma Cannon, 2x Plasma Cannon, Lascannon
2x Command Squads (8 plasma guns)
Infantry squad, lasguns (screen flank force)
5 Tallarn Mukaali Riders (Rough Riders)
<the following units hold backfield objectives while screening my Sisters>
2x Infantry squads, 1 with mortars
—————-
Basic strategy is the Girls pin my opponent and take out his screens and open up a flank; the flank force hits whatever needs to be knocked out- the Tank Commander issues himself Orders to reroll 1s, the Warlord issues Orders to the 2 plasma squads to do the same.
I’ve never run Celestine with 2 Geminae so I am curious how much more table control she can accomplish with a 2nd wound soaker.
Try and squeeze in a callidus assassin. Even though reign of confusion is only turn 1 it can go a long way to help mute out the stratagem power of codex armies in the most important turn of the game.
Well I'm afraid it didn't go to plan - the Land Raider only managed to kill off a predator before it got focussed down, and I completely mis-managed deployment and ended up putting the multi-meltas in the middle of the board. Unfortunately, a maulerfiend ate my right flank!
If I were to play it again, apart from trying to win first turn and deploying my retributors properly, I'd drop the priest and crusaders in favour of an exorcist or some seraphim with inferno pistols to handle their tanks. As good as the cheap power swords and 3+ invulnerable saves are, the crusaders just aren't killy enough or durable enough to justify taking them instead of a tank.
IVIOOSE wrote: So does anyone find that 3-4 repressors are still worth it in a sisters list with dominions with a mix of melta and stormbolters?
I still run six Repressors, four with stormbolter Doms, two with a stormbolter on the superior and four meltaguns. With Celestine and the twins in an Outrider it still leaves me 710 points of "lets see what this does" in the list.
Does anyone also run scouts in their list to counter other scouts and nurglings and now pathfinders stopping the repressors from scouting forward? I feel like 2-3 units has helped me in my lists a lot recently
I run 6 Repressors with 5 Stormbolter Doms in each, Celestine with one Geminae, and 8 Seraphim with 4 Inferno Pistols, in addition to Guard allies.
The amount of Dakka from the 6 Repressors is scary, I try to keep them all tight so I can concentrate fire on whatever needs to die. The only thing they won’t chew through is T8/3+.
What do most of you use for anti tank if all the repressors are full of stormbolters? Have a few with melta or just more units of seraphim with inferno pistols.
I’ve been running 6 units of cadia mortars with 3 officers for most of my anti infantry with them retooling to hit along with 4 repressors and some seraphim.
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