That was one odd thing about Season 1 - having lots of Romulan Refugees and yet the Romulans had a whole empire, which in theory should have been able to absorb the population of just one world.
The Empire still likely exists in some form. Its political and cultural centre is gone but the Tal Shiar would have needed a huge industrial base to build a fleet that size.
I think the reason we see so many refugees is that the empire was very centralised. The empire claimed a whole swathe of space but just how much of that was colonised or developed is anyones guess. The supremacy complex might also have a part to play. Why go to other worlds when Romulus is perfect?
Part of the issue IMO is that he exemplifies Voyager's greatest shortcoming. The status quo of the show rarely changes, no matter what happens or what lessons the crew learns. Some things come back, like the Scorpion 2 parter and Kes, but for the most part characters will have experiences and in stark contrast to both TNG and DS9, they don't really evolve from those experiences.
Except for B'lana and Tom a bit. Everyone else? Harry has all kinds of experiences, but he never really grows out of being a naive freshman ensign with little to no experience, even six years into the show.
That blame belongs on the writers IMO though. The behind-the-scenes has always been more interesting than the show and apparently Garrett Wang had a lot of issues with the show writers never letting him do things the way he wanted and rarely giving him changes to really show his character.
Honestly Voyager felt like they were trying to make Original Series. Get right back to the original roots of ST with exploring Alien of the Week every week.
This was very jarring after TNG and then DS9 had both pushed for more story based adventures. TNG started and had a few, DS9 went way way further. Even though most of the original cast actually survive till the end (I think its only Jadzia who changes and that was the Actress moving on and even then they wrote a replacement into the series really rather well).
So Voyage was the next stage in evolution and yet it went backward.
I think when you were on board each week it was ok; but when you look back you can see the oddities that it felt like a step backward in story telling and presentation after the DS9
I've said this elsewhere but it's important to remember that Trek had multiple different producers and showrunners running in parallel. Voyager absolutely was envisioned as a way to get back to 'classic' dillema of the week storylines with a return to the status quo by end of episode which is why, per Rick Berman, they needed to throw that ship as far away from the ongoing meta plot of the Dominion War as they possibly could. The problem came after, when they decided to market it like it was a perilous shakey situation where there would be danger and consequences - which they played up because Voyager was also a flagship show for a new network. If only they had made it a movieverse/tng midquel featuring the Excelsior or something.
As for Harry Kim, another fun bit in the autobiography, Janeway notes that despite being on the ops position for his sheer capability, Kim was the junior most officer on the ship, literally straight out of the academy (his parents called the captain because he'd forgotten his clarinet at home!) and despite absolutely deserving a promotion, he had an entire chain of command in front of him who'd earned their pips offscreen in crisis after crisis so it just wasn't feasible to do it. She did make a point of giving him that long overdue promotion before relinquishing command of Voyager though.
Also, his girlfriend waited for him. They got married and had a ton of kids.
Not sure if it popped up yet but S4 of Lower Decks will be out this summer with S5 currently in the writing stage.
S2 of SNW is coming out the on the 15th of June as well.
Part of the issue IMO is that he exemplifies Voyager's greatest shortcoming. The status quo of the show rarely changes, no matter what happens or what lessons the crew learns. Some things come back, like the Scorpion 2 parter and Kes, but for the most part characters will have experiences and in stark contrast to both TNG and DS9, they don't really evolve from those experiences.
Except for B'lana and Tom a bit. Everyone else? Harry has all kinds of experiences, but he never really grows out of being a naive freshman ensign with little to no experience, even six years into the show.
That blame belongs on the writers IMO though. The behind-the-scenes has always been more interesting than the show and apparently Garrett Wang had a lot of issues with the show writers never letting him do things the way he wanted and rarely giving him changes to really show his character.
I’d agree with that. For the most part, the cast aren’t the problem with Voyager. That almost entirely stems from the Writer’s Room. Rather than spin a compelling tale about the struggles of crossing a quadrant to get home, we got Star Trek The Next Generation But Like Over There.
Neelix and his actor can get squarely in the bin though. Utterly awful character.
"Neelix and his actor can get squarely in the bin though. Utterly awful character."
Agreed. If Voyager was a Klingon ship he would be fed to a Targ just after saying hello
A potentially interesting character and role within the crew, utterly wasted by imbecilic “comedy” writing.
And morale office? Morale officer?. You find an irritating stranger, with a taste in worryingly young women, and figure “you and your craaaaaaazy zany personality are exact what my crew need to cheer them up”.
If that was a British crew, the First Officer would’ve said “Who’s this Richard Cranium” and hoofed him off the ship.
I know I’ve banged on about it at some length, but Voyager should’ve been more BSG. They get abducted, and find various other ships from different periods stranded. But given Voyager has bio-neural gel, they’re not marooned themself. Spend some time setting up a sort of mini-federation type alliance. They “we have the tech to get you all home, eventually. But we’ll need to work together”.
So much more story telling potential as they challenge each other’s cultural norms and attitudes to risk and opportunity.
But no. They’d just swept TNG’s writer’s room’s floor, and all those rubbish bits were just recycled into a nonsensical, consequence free boredom. Where no-one ever develops. Nothing significantly changes. No-one is ever truly challenged.
Hell, have the last season be where, having fled The Borg with new advanced tech previously unknown in the Alpha Quadrant, the crew of Voyager’s ragtag fleet arrive on their native turf, and try to pull everyone else together to tackle The Borg who are coming, because you mightily ticked them off.
I wonder if they’ll ever try to explain why sometimes the phasers blow holes thru changlings and kill them, leaving a corpse behind. Sometimes they just vaporize them. And sometimes they just knock them down for a few seconds and they can get right back up.
Also I know it’s hard to track numbers with shapeshifters, but we saw the boarding party and how many were in it, saw several of them getting vaporized, and then they had just as many left when they took the bridge? Unless they faked every death they didn’t seem to suffer any attrition.
Phasers have always been a bit variable. I just put it down to the fact that there's no standard power settings past stun so everyone kind of keeps them on a bit of a variable range. Which can account for how sometimes they do wounds and other times blast whole chunks away.
It might also just be how often they are fired due to battery drain and such. If you're going into a firefight you might tone the power down to last longer etc...
It ticks me off that they went for the sympathetic angle with these renegade Changelings because there wasn't a need for it. We don't need to feel bad for every single villain.
And Starfleet getting infiltrated at the highest levels yet again but also somehow every single ship in the fleet as well? Come on man that's just bad. The whole point of the Changelings prior to the Dominion War was that there were four of them (excluding Odo) in the entire Alpha/Beta Quadrants and they were able to destroy the Obsidian Order, decimate the Tal Shiar, get the Klingons to go to war with the Cardassians and the Federation, bring the Cardassians into the Dominion, and almost cause a military coup on Earth. Yet it takes hundreds to do this? Rampant nostalgia can only get me so far.
I’m looking forward to being able to watch the whole of the thing in a session or three, as I think it might play better.
I certainly felt that with season 1 esp with its slower start. Which as one long watch would be fine, but did leave some chomping at the bit to get into some action/mobility in the story when it took a fairly long while to establish itself
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: It’s all feeding into the Federation Just Being Good Guys Is A Myth angle. We first saw this in Section 31, and of course Captain Sisko.
The thing is, with DS9 I'd argue the point that the Federation is still the "good guy" power within the galaxy. It does try its hardest to do what is best for the many and to preserve galactic peace, it's just that those notions aren't effective at all levels. The Maquis are born because the Federation rightly doesn't want to escalate into another war with the Cardassians because it has other bigger problems to deal with *cough*Borg*cough*. The DMZ is a mess but not the biggest mess the Federation and Starfleet have to fix at that moment and even then efforts are still made to try and resolve it.
When it comes to Sisko, the point of him is that he gets pushed further than most Starfleet captains ever will. He has strong morals and is loyal to the ideals of the Federation but is constantly pitted against foes who force him to break the rules. The Maquis are a threat to the Cardassians for the most part but eventually they push the boundaries and start attacking Starfleet. It's then that Sisko throws out the rulebook to stop a legitimate threat to peace between the Federation and the Cardassian Empire. He starts the Dominion War because he knows if they are allowed to keep building up there won't be a war, it'll be a slaughter.
Sisko was right.
As a side note, Picard also once ordered genocide against the Borg.
Another thing is that many of the ST series often focus on the positive end of the scale. DS9 walked the line between the two, being generally upbeat despite also focusing on a lot of wartime challenges and trials and struggles.
Picard has gone much more for the dirty underside of things.
It 100% still has high morals and passionate captains and such, but I think its also gone length to show that the Federation isn't perfect. It's also, I think, shown that there've been some major challenges which have threatened the future and changed the Federation in subtle ways. The Dominion War being one of them, but also increased threats of races like the Borg.
The further the Federation reaches out the more dangers it finds. Heck Original series found a LOT of hostile aliens. They were just predominantly isolated in small sectors and whilst they could threaten 1 starship; they weren't often a threat to the whole Federation itself (and where they were 1 passionate crew and captain were able to thwart them)
From what I could see the phases did different damage, but each time they did different damage they were being held by different users. It suggests that there is no standard setting being used and each one is setting a power level they feel is suitable.
Some are going to full power with disintegration; others far less power, which appears to not always work on the changelings. What appears is that their more solid form means that if you hurt them when solid their body reacts like a solid, so they go down to minor fire. However they can rebuild and recover and then resume. They might also just take wounds or such to play dead.
The only oddity is the original, she appeared to take shots way in excess when in liquid form which is either her liquid form protecting her more so or perhaps simply that she, being the most pure of the new strain, is perhaps stronger than those changed after her.
Storyline is taking an interesting turn and the idea of a group of the Federation experimenting on Changelings 100% fits. Odo was experimented upon; and during the war factions of the Federation did develop the plague approach. So the idea that a small wing was doing experiments on a handful of Changelings fits rather nicely as another of those little dark bits of the Federation.
I was theorizing that these changelings are some changelings that basically infused themselves into "solids". Basically, they evolved body-snatcher abilities. It seems like that is what has happened.
However, I'm a little unclear why there are so many of them. In that flashback scene it seemed like there were about 9 tortured changelings. It would have been better if there was a finite number of these rouge changelings. Kind of like the Cylons in BSG.
Like this whole crisis is not approved by The Dominion right? I wouldn't like it if they had a second Dominion war with the official Dominion. I thought they way the war ended the first time around was satisfyingly trekish.
What's the deal with Jack Crusher though? Before this the best theory would be that he's simply a sleeper Cylon - I mean changeling. But what's up with the psychic powers? Overall, I'm not a big fan of The Chosen One plots. It's been done too many times and is usually just lazy writing.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: I was theorizing that these changelings are some changelings that basically infused themselves into "solids". Basically, they evolved body-snatcher abilities. It seems like that is what has happened.
However, I'm a little unclear why there are so many of them. In that flashback scene it seemed like there were about 9 tortured changelings. It would have been better if there was a finite number of these rouge changelings. Kind of like the Cylons in BSG.
Like this whole crisis is not approved by The Dominion right? I wouldn't like it if they had a second Dominion war with the official Dominion. I thought they way the war ended the first time around was satisfyingly trekish.
What's the deal with Jack Crusher though? Before this the best theory would be that he's simply a sleeper Cylon - I mean changeling. But what's up with the psychic powers? Overall, I'm not a big fan of The Chosen One plots. It's been done too many times and is usually just lazy writing.
Both those points were explained in this episode
Spoiler:
1) During her story about her past, the Changling ship captain revealed that she was the original successful experiment. She alone started with the altered and functional ability to shapeshift. She then found out that she could link with others and pass on the genetic changes to herself to them. So she changed those who were also kept captive with her and then escaped Daystrum. They then went out and recruited others to their cause with her being able to change them into those akin to herself.
2) There is a small part where it mentions that Picards mental defect might not be what it seems and could be something else. Considering that he died, that died with him and now his Son is the only one who has the property. This appears to be manifesting in a way it never did in Picard and seems to be linked to the head/face that the Changling ship captain has summoned on more than one occasion.
What that thing is, what the link to Picard is and what's going on is all very much unknown.
From what I could see the phases did different damage, but each time they did different damage they were being held by different users. It suggests that there is no standard setting being used and each one is setting a power level they feel is suitable.
Some are going to full power with disintegration; others far less power, which appears to not always work on the changelings. What appears is that their more solid form means that if you hurt them when solid their body reacts like a solid, so they go down to minor fire. However they can rebuild and recover and then resume. They might also just take wounds or such to play dead.
The only oddity is the original, she appeared to take shots way in excess when in liquid form which is either her liquid form protecting her more so or perhaps simply that she, being the most pure of the new strain, is perhaps stronger than those changed after her.
Storyline is taking an interesting turn and the idea of a group of the Federation experimenting on Changelings 100% fits. Odo was experimented upon; and during the war factions of the Federation did develop the plague approach. So the idea that a small wing was doing experiments on a handful of Changelings fits rather nicely as another of those little dark bits of the Federation.
I liked the background about why the changelings are doing this. I don't think it's a bad thing to show that the enemies of the Federation have their own side of the story but with Odo he was experimented on because the scientist who experimented on him didn't even know he was a life-form let alone an intelligent one. It was an accident and not malevolent.
I got the sense this latest batch happened after or during The Dominion War?
KamikazeCanuck wrote: I was theorizing that these changelings are some changelings that basically infused themselves into "solids". Basically, they evolved body-snatcher abilities. It seems like that is what has happened.
However, I'm a little unclear why there are so many of them. In that flashback scene it seemed like there were about 9 tortured changelings. It would have been better if there was a finite number of these rouge changelings. Kind of like the Cylons in BSG.
Like this whole crisis is not approved by The Dominion right? I wouldn't like it if they had a second Dominion war with the official Dominion. I thought they way the war ended the first time around was satisfyingly trekish.
What's the deal with Jack Crusher though? Before this the best theory would be that he's simply a sleeper Cylon - I mean changeling. But what's up with the psychic powers? Overall, I'm not a big fan of The Chosen One plots. It's been done too many times and is usually just lazy writing.
Both those points were explained in this episode
Spoiler:
1) During her story about her past, the Changling ship captain revealed that she was the original successful experiment. She alone started with the altered and functional ability to shapeshift. She then found out that she could link with others and pass on the genetic changes to herself to them. So she changed those who were also kept captive with her and then escaped Daystrum. They then went out and recruited others to their cause with her being able to change them into those akin to herself.
2) There is a small part where it mentions that Picards mental defect might not be what it seems and could be something else. Considering that he died, that died with him and now his Son is the only one who has the property. This appears to be manifesting in a way it never did in Picard and seems to be linked to the head/face that the Changling ship captain has summoned on more than one occasion.
What that thing is, what the link to Picard is and what's going on is all very much unknown.
Ah ok. That makes sense. Basically, the opposite of what ended the war is happening. Instead of Odo spreading the concept of empathy to the great link this person is spreading new found hatred. Did she make it all the way to the Great Link though? That would be bad... Or she made it but it caused a schism and not every changeling wanted to restart the war.
From what I could see the phases did different damage, but each time they did different damage they were being held by different users. It suggests that there is no standard setting being used and each one is setting a power level they feel is suitable.
Some are going to full power with disintegration; others far less power, which appears to not always work on the changelings. What appears is that their more solid form means that if you hurt them when solid their body reacts like a solid, so they go down to minor fire. However they can rebuild and recover and then resume. They might also just take wounds or such to play dead.
The only oddity is the original, she appeared to take shots way in excess when in liquid form which is either her liquid form protecting her more so or perhaps simply that she, being the most pure of the new strain, is perhaps stronger than those changed after her.
Storyline is taking an interesting turn and the idea of a group of the Federation experimenting on Changelings 100% fits. Odo was experimented upon; and during the war factions of the Federation did develop the plague approach. So the idea that a small wing was doing experiments on a handful of Changelings fits rather nicely as another of those little dark bits of the Federation.
I liked the background about why the changelings are doing this. I don't think it's a bad thing to show that the enemies of the Federation have their own side of the story but with Odo he was experimented on because the scientist who experimented on him didn't even know he was a life-form let alone an intelligent one. It was an accident and not malevolent.
I got the sense this latest batch happened after or during The Dominion War?
KamikazeCanuck wrote: I was theorizing that these changelings are some changelings that basically infused themselves into "solids". Basically, they evolved body-snatcher abilities. It seems like that is what has happened.
However, I'm a little unclear why there are so many of them. In that flashback scene it seemed like there were about 9 tortured changelings. It would have been better if there was a finite number of these rouge changelings. Kind of like the Cylons in BSG.
Like this whole crisis is not approved by The Dominion right? I wouldn't like it if they had a second Dominion war with the official Dominion. I thought they way the war ended the first time around was satisfyingly trekish.
What's the deal with Jack Crusher though? Before this the best theory would be that he's simply a sleeper Cylon - I mean changeling. But what's up with the psychic powers? Overall, I'm not a big fan of The Chosen One plots. It's been done too many times and is usually just lazy writing.
Both those points were explained in this episode
Spoiler:
1) During her story about her past, the Changling ship captain revealed that she was the original successful experiment. She alone started with the altered and functional ability to shapeshift. She then found out that she could link with others and pass on the genetic changes to herself to them. So she changed those who were also kept captive with her and then escaped Daystrum. They then went out and recruited others to their cause with her being able to change them into those akin to herself.
2) There is a small part where it mentions that Picards mental defect might not be what it seems and could be something else. Considering that he died, that died with him and now his Son is the only one who has the property. This appears to be manifesting in a way it never did in Picard and seems to be linked to the head/face that the Changling ship captain has summoned on more than one occasion.
What that thing is, what the link to Picard is and what's going on is all very much unknown.
Ah ok. That makes sense. Basically, the opposite of what ended the war is happening. Instead of Odo spreading the concept of empathy to the great link this person is spreading new found hatred. Did she make it all the way to the Great Link though? That would be bad... Or she made it but it caused a schism and not every changeling wanted to restart the war.
Spoiler:
It appears that these new Changlings were made during or after the War. The interesting point is that they were talking about how they were being made into new weapons, which suggests it was after the war since the intention was to use the Changlings to infiltrate other solids rather than being sent back to their own people to infiltrate them. So this supports the idea that its happened after the war, not during. Which would likely greatly increase any hate those changlings have since it wasn't even a wartime event.
As for if she made it to the Great Link, we've already had Worf earlier talk about how there's a faction of Changlings who broke away from the Great Link. This isn't all Changlings, but a splinter cell who are very powerful and impactful, but aren't representing all. However the Changlings likely don't want to deal with them. Remember they are still a quadrant away and likely don't want to risk sending operatives who might get corrupted to the new group; or who might be misinterpreted by the Solids and spark another war. So they appear to be keeping well out of it.
The big mystery now is who the sponsor is for these new Changlings, what deal or powerful entity has she bound herself and those with her too. Also curious is how all those in the ship appear to take the same base form yet she takes human. There's no mixing of species or race which is interesting, but could purely be a pragmatic element.
You'd figure Odo would have warned the Alpha Quadrant that this was coming. I bet the final episode will either have Odo (the actor is dead but that's not an obstacle with today's tech) or the resurrection of Sisko.
Anyways, with regards to the Phasers anyone kind of miss the beam ones? I liked the pulse ones when Abrams Trek came out. They were a cool change but now I kind of pine for that old beam and the old sound effect it made. These new ones literally blast burning holes in people which doesn't seem like something The Federation would use.
Also, they have their version of the cocking hammer sound but its that weird powering up sound. I know that's kind of cool but also impractical. Imagine a spec ops stealth team trying to operate with that wind up sound alerting everyone.
Doubtful that Odo or Sisko will show up. Using computers to de-age actors doesn't sit well with most people so resurrection outside of a tiny cameo (like in the latest Ghostbusters) is off the cards I'd say, and Avery Brooks won't make a return.
Patrick Steward didn't look fondly on his Picard years for quite a long time. Though I think he came around before the end of his working time there and now fully embraces them.
Then again even if an actor does fantastic in a role, sometimes the role wasn't what they wanted from it; or perhaps they had ot turn down other work that they'd wished they'd done or perhaps they didn't get on with those they worked with etc...
There can be a huge amount of baggage and attachment behind the scenes - heck even down to how much they got paid and the like. All of which can mean what we consider a fantastic role and acting might be something the actor looks on with an entirely different association and impression.
Concerning Brooks, according to Ciroc Lofton (Jake in DS9), Brooks has been blacklisted by Hollywood for some reason.
A big thing was that he didn't do a new interview for What We Left Behind but he did give some input to the project (input that Ira Steven Behr credited with making the documentary such a hit) and made it clear that he just didn't have anything to add to what he had already said in the past.
“Alright, I have turned off all the lights, all the communications, and locked all the doors. Please come to the bridge immediately.” How the F did you expect them to get there now?! Not that that seemed to actually have any effect on anything.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: Anyways, with regards to the Phasers anyone kind of miss the beam ones?
Even the ships don't seem to have beams anymore. I both miss the beams and pretending my shaver is a phasor.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AduroT wrote: “Alright, I have turned off all the lights, all the communications, and locked all the doors. Please come to the bridge immediately.” How the F did you expect them to get there now?! Not that that seemed to actually have any effect on anything.
Honestly turning the lights on would be a nice change and no doubt disorientate everyone more.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: Anyways, with regards to the Phasers anyone kind of miss the beam ones?
Even the ships don't seem to have beams anymore. I both miss the beams and pretending my shaver is a phasor.
Yes, actually if I could only have one it would be the ship beams. That's the iconic Star Trek ship battle look. Not sure why they changed it. I know the Defiant started with that to make it look like they have special phasers but if everyone has them then...not so special anymore.
The beams are from when the Phasers were as much tools as defensive weapons. The pulse version seen on The Defiant was better for knocking down shields, as each blast could be a higher yield, and battered enemy shields in different locations.
I’m guessing modern Federation ships can use both firing modes, but so far we’ve only seen them used in combat?
My wife and I just finished season 1 of Picard, and it was shockingly bad. The not even thinly veiled Thanos and Dr Strange references aside, the Blade Runner schtick was so heavy I kept expecting Harrison Ford to show up and blast Soji.
It fails repeatedly to follow its own internal narrative/logic.
At this point I can only mutter something about should have let the Romulans win (insert Wookiee growl).
I went back to Enterprise because I'm playing a game mod from that era and even considering its sometimes poor writing, it's still better than this.
The only character I genuinely like is Shaw because he is legitimately right nearly 90% of the time. I'm not looking for the TNG crew to be exactly the same but come on, they're all just super miserable and depressed all the damn time.
End of episode review is still much the same. Bits were good but god it's such a damn slog to get to the good bits.
Maniac_nmt wrote: My wife and I just finished season 1 of Picard, and it was shockingly bad. The not even thinly veiled Thanos and Dr Strange references aside, the Blade Runner schtick was so heavy I kept expecting Harrison Ford to show up and blast Soji.
It fails repeatedly to follow its own internal narrative/logic.
At this point I can only mutter something about should have let the Romulans win (insert Wookiee growl).
Avoid season 2 - season 1 looks like a masterpiece compared to that dross.
Overread wrote:Phasers have always been a bit variable. I just put it down to the fact that there's no standard power settings past stun so everyone kind of keeps them on a bit of a variable range. Which can account for how sometimes they do wounds and other times blast whole chunks away.
It might also just be how often they are fired due to battery drain and such. If you're going into a firefight you might tone the power down to last longer etc...
Overread wrote:
Spoiler:
From what I could see the phases did different damage, but each time they did different damage they were being held by different users. It suggests that there is no standard setting being used and each one is setting a power level they feel is suitable.
Some are going to full power with disintegration; others far less power, which appears to not always work on the changelings. What appears is that their more solid form means that if you hurt them when solid their body reacts like a solid, so they go down to minor fire. However they can rebuild and recover and then resume. They might also just take wounds or such to play dead.
The only oddity is the original, she appeared to take shots way in excess when in liquid form which is either her liquid form protecting her more so or perhaps simply that she, being the most pure of the new strain, is perhaps stronger than those changed after her.
Storyline is taking an interesting turn and the idea of a group of the Federation experimenting on Changelings 100% fits. Odo was experimented upon; and during the war factions of the Federation did develop the plague approach. So the idea that a small wing was doing experiments on a handful of Changelings fits rather nicely as another of those little dark bits of the Federation.
Upon re-watching with a friend...
Spoiler:
Jack and Sidney are using visibly different phaser weapons entirely. You can tell during the close-ups after their mind-meld fight, her's has a rectangular tip that looks descended from TNG era phasers, while his has a tip that looks like a faucet fixture - it may actually be a prop from Strange New Worlds.
Anyway, youtube randomly threw up a recommendation theorizing what the end goal for the baddies is. I don't usually go for Major Grin's stuff, but he raises some interesting points...
Gert wrote: The only character I genuinely like is Shaw because he is legitimately right nearly 90% of the time.
Bar the somewhat understandable issues with Borg and why he would want as a consequence 7 as his first officer, he does come across as a perfectly reasonable mid ranking captain on a second tier ship. Even if I am sure being an engineer he would fit better lights.
I had been thinking since early on that this was going to tie back to when the Borg messed around with his DNA as Locutus and that the tampering was passed on but how that will play out I'm not sure. The video seems to think it is a latent Locutus trying to come back? The imagery seems a bit to organic for the Borg but I suppose that could be the point because this bit can connect to other beings without being part of a digital/mechanical network. I guess we'll find out here soon.
I was reminded about a trope I hate from last week’s episode, namely the whole near instantly freezing into a solid block of ice when exposed to space. That doesn’t happen! You’d take a long time to freeze out there with nothing to absorb your heat! Vacuums being amazing insulators is the entire point of my sweet sweet Yeti koozie.
So this week’s Picard;
Spoiler:
How dare you treat me like a threat?! Im gonna mind control these dudes with guns to threaten you!
I know exactly how to beat the bad guy! By giving them exactly what they spent the past eight episodes trying to get! Oh wait that didn’t work…
Man, Starfleet really needs some better security protocols on those shuttle bays. Titan has Two shuttle thefts in one episode! Seems anyone can just walk in there and fly off with one and there ain’t nothing the bridge can do about it.
“The Enterprise D is completely analog!” I don’t think you know what that word means… But sure, let’s just fly this one antique back to face off against the rest of the fleet with no plan, see how that works out for us. At least our feet will be more comfortable.
Why is the Borg Queen even doing this? Apparently it’s gotta be some new/alternate one since they made nice with them last season and didn’t show their face this episode. Hm… Given this is Nostalgia Bait the season, and they’ve name dropped Janeway a few times without showing them, I’m betting somehow it’s them. Or maybe one of those Androids from season one got disgruntled. It has to be a face we recognize or there’s no reason to hide it.
How dare you treat me like a threat?! Im gonna mind control these dudes with guns to threaten you!
I know exactly how to beat the bad guy! By giving them exactly what they spent the past eight episodes trying to get! Oh wait that didn’t work…
Man, Starfleet really needs some better security protocols on those shuttle bays. Titan has Two shuttle thefts in one episode! Seems anyone can just walk in there and fly off with one and there ain’t nothing the bridge can do about it.
“The Enterprise D is completely analog!” I don’t think you know what that word means… But sure, let’s just fly this one antique back to face off against the rest of the fleet with no plan, see how that works out for us. At least our feet will be more comfortable.
Why is the Borg Queen even doing this? Apparently it’s gotta be some new/alternate one since they made nice with them last season and didn’t show their face this episode. Hm… Given this is Nostalgia Bait the season, and they’ve name dropped Janeway a few times without showing them, I’m betting somehow it’s them. Or maybe one of those Androids from season one got disgruntled. It has to be a face we recognize or there’s no reason to hide it.
Spoiler:
From what we do see of her from behind, the costume has visibly changed. My guess is they've assimilated those changeling radicals and there's going to be a biological twist to her design in the full reveal next episode - with the actor herself being either the Voyager or First Contact queen.
I appreciated Geordi spelling out exactly which ship donated the drive section, because there would absolutely have been people whining that the writers forgot it blew up dramatically in Generations. I assume it has a degree of automation in place there since the drive is almost certainly from a Dominion War era Battle Galaxy, but it might have been amusing for it to have like holograms serving as crew - or maybe they should have established Geordi's staff on the station were a bunch of old farts the fleet shoveled in there to wait out their retirement and they have to crew the thing.
On Jack? He’s not exactly in full control of his faculties now, is he. The Borg Queen has seemingly been gently nudging him along. He even says her voice has always been with him.
Changeling’s plan is….interesting. I assume they made some sort of pact with The Borg. Because if not, I’m not entirely sure what they personally stand to gain, as The Borg aren’t noted for stopping. Revenge against a foe that humbled you is one thing. Arming the next lot likely to come and disrupt your perfect order is quite another. Then again, nobody ever said what are essentially terrorists are sane.
Looking forward to the finale, though I am expecting Jack to just…save the day. Possibly releasing all Drones.
Biggest question of course is with Picard and Mando wrapping up next week, the hell else am I going to watch?
On Jack? He’s not exactly in full control of his faculties now, is he. The Borg Queen has seemingly been gently nudging him along. He even says her voice has always been with him.
Changeling’s plan is….interesting. I assume they made some sort of pact with The Borg. Because if not, I’m not entirely sure what they personally stand to gain, as The Borg aren’t noted for stopping. Revenge against a foe that humbled you is one thing. Arming the next lot likely to come and disrupt your perfect order is quite another. Then again, nobody ever said what are essentially terrorists are sane.
Looking forward to the finale, though I am expecting Jack to just…save the day. Possibly releasing all Drones.
Biggest question of course is with Picard and Mando wrapping up next week, the hell else am I going to watch?
There is and apparently there is a crossover episode with Lower Decks.
AduroT wrote: I was reminded about a trope I hate from last week’s episode, namely the whole near instantly freezing into a solid block of ice when exposed to space. That doesn’t happen!
Maybe Changelings don't handle a vacuum well.
Also: There is supposed to be ten years between S2 and S3?
What a beautiful nostalgia bomb at the end. The best Star Trek crew on the bridge of the best Enterprise. The question now, when we know who the real enemy is, will the certain Queen from this show, like maybe show herself?
Shadow Walker wrote: What a beautiful nostalgia bomb at the end. The best Star Trek crew on the bridge of the best Enterprise. The question now, when we know who the real enemy is, will the certain Queen from this show, like maybe show herself?
Funny, I didn't see the Enterprise-E anywhere in that finale...
Shadow Walker wrote: What a beautiful nostalgia bomb at the end. The best Star Trek crew on the bridge of the best Enterprise. The question now, when we know who the real enemy is, will the certain Queen from this show, like maybe show herself?
Funny, I didn't see the Enterprise-E anywhere in that finale...
Mwhahaha! We will kill all the old (have to be every race even though it makes no sense) Starfleet officer! This paves the way for...
A young person appealing hip reboot! Like that JJ Abrams stuff, but possibly younger. With more or less lenses flair. I haven't decided yet. But lots of young people crewing ships! Oh the angst! The drama! The possibility for a new generation of consumers! All will be as close to borg as I can get them!
Shadow Walker wrote: What a beautiful nostalgia bomb at the end. The best Star Trek crew on the bridge of the best Enterprise. The question now, when we know who the real enemy is, will the certain Queen from this show, like maybe show herself?
Funny, I didn't see the Enterprise-E anywhere in that finale...
Darn it they keep killing my favourite new characters! Huge shame to lose Shaw and I really enjoyed how he really stood up well to the old cast. Never browbeaten and often right. Its rare you get that in a nostalgic series.
Only odd thing is not one mention of them considering fleeing to the friendly Borg from the last season. That surely would have been the best course of action with a Borg threat.
Other than that very enjoyable and a smart trick and twist indeed!
Though I'm not quite sure what the Enterprise D is going to do against the entire Borg-Starfleet.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Shadow Walker wrote: What a beautiful nostalgia bomb at the end. The best Star Trek crew on the bridge of the best Enterprise. The question now, when we know who the real enemy is, will the certain Queen from this show, like maybe show herself?
When I look back on it - TNG was perhaps Startrek Exploratory adventures at its peek.
Voyager and series that tried to copy it I feel never quite got the same magic; and series since Voyager keep trying to go from exploring into "ok lets save the universe" type storylines all the time. Timewars in Enterprise; turblolift alternate dimensions in another.
TNG never had to go super large to tell a good adventure.
Shadow Walker wrote: What a beautiful nostalgia bomb at the end. The best Star Trek crew on the bridge of the best Enterprise. The question now, when we know who the real enemy is, will the certain Queen from this show, like maybe show herself?
Funny, I didn't see the Enterprise-E anywhere in that finale...
Until he mentioned it I had never even given that a second thought but... yeah.
I literally did the same thing XD
TNG has so many 'walking through the gaudy shade of red carpeted halls' scenes that yeah the carpets are a constant feature of Enterprise-D, but then I thought of First Contact and it just has very very different camera work. The carpets are there but never are the halls themselves called out in the same way as they are in TNG XD
Something has to show up because even at its best the Enterprise D cannot take on the entire spacefleet. Let alone one with decades of advances.
Now what we might see is a last-chance battle of regular non-starfleet ships in orbit around Earth and in the Sol system. One big thing that was missing in Federation day was, well, non-humans. It almost felt like the Alternate Dimension Picard Day.
So I'd welcome a united stand of alien races bidding to help save the Federation from the Borg (and itself in a way).
Mwhahaha! We will kill all the old (have to be every race even though it makes no sense) Starfleet officer! This paves the way for...
A young person appealing hip reboot! Like that JJ Abrams stuff, but possibly younger. With more or less lenses flair. I haven't decided yet. But lots of young people crewing ships! Oh the angst! The drama! The possibility for a new generation of consumers! All will be as close to borg as I can get them!
Overread wrote: Something has to show up because even at its best the Enterprise D cannot take on the entire spacefleet. Let alone one with decades of advances.
Now what we might see is a last-chance battle of regular non-starfleet ships in orbit around Earth and in the Sol system. One big thing that was missing in Federation day was, well, non-humans. It almost felt like the Alternate Dimension Picard Day.
So I'd welcome a united stand of alien races bidding to help save the Federation from the Borg (and itself in a way).
It's an annoyingly weird one because obviously getting an extra into the makeup chair for 4 hours to have them be in less than a minute of footage is a lot of hassle. Then there's the issue of a fair whack of Federation member species looking like humans. Bajorans, Vulcans, Risians, Trill, Betazoids, the list goes on and on because of ToS and cheaper episodes of other series.
But as for why there aren't any non-Starfleet ships, Frontier Day is to do with the anniversary of the launch of the NX-01. It's about Starfleet not the Federation as a whole. Ambassadors will be present at official gatherings but not with their own species ships.
Earlier in the season Riker mentions the computer virus that incapacitated Picard which fits with the fact he was still somehow Borg despite losing his implants and nanoprobes. I think this will play a part in the final episode.
But can't they just use the transporter to remove the Borg/Picard DNA? Beam them up, hold them in a pattern buffer, remove the Picard DNA and then rematerialise them?
Where does 7 fit in - can she pull something out of the bag?
And the transporters only affect anybody roughly 25yo and younger but does that not just mean that the changelings only need to replace anyone over 25yo? And it feels like everyone has forgotten the changelings have infiltrated StarFleet?
Earlier in the season Riker mentions the computer virus that incapacitated Picard which fits with the fact he was still somehow Borg despite losing his implants and nanoprobes. I think this will play a part in the final episode.
But can't they just use the transporter to remove the Borg/Picard DNA? Beam them up, hold them in a pattern buffer, remove the Picard DNA and then rematerialise them?
Where does 7 fit in - can she pull something out of the bag?
And the transporters only affect anybody roughly 25yo and younger but does that not just mean that the changelings only need to replace anyone over 25yo? And it feels like everyone has forgotten the changelings have infiltrated StarFleet?
Spoiler:
Remember the Changlings are limited in number, this is a splinter cell of Changlings. Their power was in steadily infiltrating positions of key power in the fleet, but they couldn't take every single position.
I would also expect that since their leader is dead and the Borg are taking over, the Changlings could well have fled the scene. This was never about them taking over Starfleet or working with the Borg long term. We well saw that the Borg had a one-up on them for a long while. The deal was very one-sided and only worked because the Changlings, esp their leader, wanted revenge above all else.
They don't want to be assimilated, so the changlings will have fled.
Heck if they didn't changes are as they are not Borg they will have been terminated.
I don't know if they can cleanse people with the transporters. They couldn't do that for Picard's condition and it might be that after the modifications, the DNA is so embedded that its beyond them to perform alterations on that level. Perhaps, or it might be removable. However they'd still have to transport the entire of Starfleet lower ranks and such. That's a huge number and that's without them commanding a fleet of Starships.
Considering the grand plan it wouldn't surprise me if one of the subtle changes that the Changlings made was to move more senior staff into more Station and off-ship roles and to move more younger generations into ships in key positions. Especially for Federation Day. In the end its a simple operation day of formation flying and such. So could well be a good excuse for the "old guard" to be on the spacestation watching whilst younger generations were left on-ship for the display (and get invited to the Lower-Decks party later )
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Strip out/delete the Changeling addition from each ship. Beam the crewmates, Bob’s your Uncle.
The problem is that they figured out the issue to late to do that. I doubt they'll be able to convince the assimilated to just just change the teleporter coding and then use them. I also doubt they have the capacity to just force all the ships to drop their shields simulataneasly and then teleports 40 ships worth off effected crew simultaneously.
For ethical reasons they likely do not keep long term "Backups" of people who have been transported. So they won't have unmodified versions of the crew. This is a slow burn campaign that's been going on for some time, so chances are any safety limits on stored transporter data are long long gone. Not to mention the DNA change only adjusted their DNA, their bodies then completed the process of taking that DNA and using it during the final stages of maturity. So far as the body and teleporters are concerned, its 100% part of them.
I think this is a change that can't be easily removed.
The weakness is it clearly requires Picard's Son to use it. The Borg can't enact their plan without him, the whole system cannot function. Clearly there's some unique patterning to the encoding and his signal he sends out which means that the Borg can't easily copy that signal. It could even be some kind of adaptive signal so they can't just scan his brain to get the codec. They need him alive (or at least that part of him alive) to control the others.
'Star Trek: Section 31' Original Movie Event Starring Oscar Winner Michelle Yeoh Announced Yeoh to reprise her fan-favorite role as Emperor Philippa Georgiou, with production beginning later this year.
I've not seen it yet (darn you getting it a day early!!) but DS9 held its own against fleets several times and that was after emergency retro fitting during the Dominion War.
Starfleet Fleet Command has had 20+ years after the Dominion War to armour itself and considering that the war did reach Earth they likely didn't have any issues armouring the station like crazy.
Considering its position and size its a massive focal point for the Federation.
So it likely is armed like a fortress and able to withstand considerable assault.
Never said it wouldn't work just that it wasn't a solution to the immediate problem. It didn't help them while all the youths were trying to kill them and blowing up space stations. YOUTHS!
Just think. A military (despite its protestations, Starfleet is a military. Just not a terribly fighty one, by comparison.) generation, all in desperate need of ongoing trauma Counselling!
I was initially worried they would just have a nice, clean end for Picard/TNG and not setup a spin off or new series but luckily they assuaged my fears.
Spoiler:
Apparently many missed the mid credit Q appearance. Not sure how I feel about it honestly. The Q aren't linear and it is always a treat to see DeLancie but Q had a nice way to go out along with the rest of TNG.
When they first showed the cube next to Enterprise D I said "That is a big cube" then when the D started flying around inside it I SAID "WOW THAT REALLY IS A BIG CUBE".
I didn't actually mean to go full fury cap locks but accidentally hit the button but it feels right so I'll let it slide.
Always keep in mind Q is even more of a dick than Andrew Tate, and unlike Andrew Tate is in fact pretty much a God.
Q’s star turn in Picard S2 and apparent death is best described as Q, once again, being a dick. Just to see what happens.
Because that is the way of Q, and indeed all Q.
Imagine being genuinely immortal and invincible, beyond the policing of your own. So many short lived species which evolve from goop, achieve sentience and hurl themselves heedless into the void. Faking your own deth is….Childsplay.
I can only hope any follow up series only comes about because the creatives have a solid idea. I’m not even gonna say “good idea”, because that’s subjective, and I’ve seen more than enough Awful B-Movifd that had an interesting, if wasted, premise
renaming the Titan. That's kinda disrespectful to such a great ship.
Just build a new ship...you managed to rebuild Space Dock in a Year. Presumably with the help of all those folk who for some reason didn't show up for the big battle.
Also, am I psychotic that I was annoyed by the huge pauses for 'but we will kill a handful of people to save the entire galaxy' parts. Maybe it was too much 2nd Edition D&D in my twenties.
Ahtman wrote: I was initially worried they would just have a nice, clean end for Picard/TNG and not setup a spin off or new series but luckily they assuaged my fears.
Spoiler:
Apparently many missed the mid credit Q appearance. Not sure how I feel about it honestly. The Q aren't linear and it is always a treat to see DeLancie but Q had a nice way to go out along with the rest of TNG.
.
Well
Spoiler:
it was a good scene to end a truely stupid and dire plot that was S2 - just watched the new scene on youtube and happy it was there....
My niggling complaint is they didn’t get Whoopi in there for that last scene. They name drop her as being in the room with them, but can’t show her. I forgot S2 ended with Q’s death, and not just dying. Would have been great to have her and Q sitting at a table together in the background of the others at their card game.
In a series plagued by endings that always felt too short, rushed, fast and just a little over the top here and there - series 3 ends perfectly with a brilliant ST feel to it.
That was a freaking awesome episode and ending! Worth the dark ride of the underbelly of the Federation to get too!
Yes there were a few cheesy spots, but everything was just pure ST style and cheese and everything. I enjoyed proper closure to the Borg presented (and yet they still are not fully gone for there's still that new collective sitting at the wormhole's entrance).
For time and Space Dock - they might have built it in a year, or they pulled another station in from another location and beefed it up in status and such.
For Q don't think linear. Q likely did die in season 2. He, however, isn't bound by linear time as we are. So the Q that died then is, as we might understand it, the older version of the Q who now appear. And yet because he's likely non-linear the Q we have now might well have died or remember that death or something like that. It's likely tricky to apply linear logic to a non-linear being.
Also I want to say that I think its such a "Trek" thing that an actress, basically brought on to wear the tightest suit they could find in an attempt to use "boobies" to restore flagging viewer numbers; has gone on to come out the other end as one of the stronger leads and is now poised to potentially be a captain in a whole new season of Star Trek. Or at least if the ending is to be believed that's what's very much set in potential motion.
Who knows perhaps it ends here, or perhaps we get some proper Trek once again! Now huge time jumps or turbolift alternate dimensions or anything!
Gert wrote: My favourite fun fact about Seven of Nine is the theory that her introduction to prevent Voyager from tanking further helped Obama get elected.
Can you tell us more? Or provide a link if it’s perhaps overly political for Dakka!
So Jeri Ryan got cast in Voyager which put a strain on her marriage and led to divorce. In 2004 her ex-husband was selected as the Republican nominee for the Senate in Illinois at which point the reason for the divorce became public (naughty stuff) and he had to withdraw. Obama then won the Senate election which paved the way for him to become President in 2008.
Therefore, Voyager's poor ratings led to Obama getting the presidency.
It's just a theory but a funny one nonetheless.
Read up on it, and I do not agree with a private News Channel being able to sue for sealed court documents which those party to the case didn’t want unsealed.
Gert wrote: So Jeri Ryan got cast in Voyager which put a strain on her marriage and led to divorce. In 2004 her ex-husband was selected as the Republican nominee for the Senate in Illinois at which point the reason for the divorce became public (naughty stuff) and he had to withdraw. Obama then won the Senate election which paved the way for him to become President in 2008.
Therefore, Voyager's poor ratings led to Obama getting the presidency.
It's just a theory but a funny one nonetheless.
I've never heard this before but it's a fething fascinating thing.
Stick with Orvile, it’s one of the better “Star Trek” shows, and was really kind of a bait and switch pulled on Fox in that it’s not his full bore usual comedy style. Gets pretty deep, and the most recent season after it left Fox gets Really dark and kind of depressing in many spots.
Wait until you watch the Communicator, which I'd rank as easily the 2nd worst episode of Star Trek ever made, where the character tell the boldest lies (for absolutely no reason) and heightens the tensions of a potential world war (again, for absolutely no reason) and then the story just totally glosses over this monster feth up of global potentially millions of people are going to die proportions as a 'oops, live and learn' moment.
Alright, was out of town so just got to watch the last two episodes now. I don't know, I just feel like this now when I see The Borg . Like...again with The Borg? One of the things I liked about this season was they had a great non-borg villain for once. Like all this buildup with The Changelings and then suddenly.... The Borg. The evil plot is just ridiculously convoluted now.
Anyway, I will admit it was fun to see the gang back together again but it's time to call it a day for them. Seems like it's going to spin off in some way with Jack Crusher and possibly the La Forge sisters? The Next, Next Generation?
LordofHats wrote: Wait until you watch the Communicator, which I'd rank as easily the 2nd worst episode of Star Trek ever made, where the character tell the boldest lies (for absolutely no reason) and heightens the tensions of a potential world war (again, for absolutely no reason) and then the story just totally glosses over this monster feth up of global potentially millions of people are going to die proportions as a 'oops, live and learn' moment.
This whole season was essentially fan service to close out the TNG series so it makes sense that the most associated baddie from TNG would be part of that ending. Sort of an Undiscovered Country* for the TNG era.
*They didn't kill off the Klingons, obliviously, but it narratively marked a radical change in their approach and place in the Star Trek universe.
Also lets not forget that Season 2 ended with a remade kind of Borg existing as well.
I think Seasons 1 and 2 did bold things with Picard and I think they also nicely established him in his new position and as a character. They helped bridge the gap between TNG and Season 3.
But yeah Season 3 just feels like the writing, actors and everything just "clicked" together really well.
I do get the "Oh its the Borg again" angle as I would also have loved another faction or race; but as closure to the whole season and as a big closure to Picard's character I think it was a fantastic close and also intro to a potential new season and adventure.
Yes, but season 2 also felt like a closure of the Borg book. They basically had a peace treaty with them. To bring them back as the villain you just punch out yet again after that is diminishing returns. Voyager also ended with a boss battle against them and all of this stuff in inferior to First Contact IMO.
I thought the baddie they might bring back that would be cool is the Jem'Hadar. They would probably make them look really cool after upgrading their effect and makeup.
Borg do have a bit of a "didn't we kill you before?" Feel to them I agree. I've felt it ever since we saw Borg after Voyager's end, so I was glad to see the Queen in this one half dead and a sign that the Borg had indeed been hit by Voyager's move.
It explained a good chunk of things.
Also season 2 wasn't really an end to the Borg, it was a start of new Borg and potentially also leaving a bit of a hanger for them doing adventures in another Galaxy with the new rift opening.
I saw Season 2 as a way to keep the Borg going as a concept with a new twist; meanwhile Season 3 killed off the old-guard of the Borg; or at least their primary queen, with potential that there might be other Cubes floating around isolated/disconnected and such.
Ahtman wrote: I get wanting to see a different antagonist but considering the nature of the season I'm not surprised it went the way it did.
What I want is V'ger to make a comeback.
V'ger can only come back once they hire an outstanding cinematographer and CGI team to pull off V'Ger again.
I do, however, soft like the fact that we never found the race that created V'Ger and that you could almost see that the robots from Season 1 Picard could be part of that tale.
Ahtman wrote: I get wanting to see a different antagonist but considering the nature of the season I'm not surprised it went the way it did.
What I want is V'ger to make a comeback.
V'ger can only come back once they hire an outstanding cinematographer and CGI team to pull off V'Ger again.
I do, however, soft like the fact that we never found the race that created V'Ger and that you could almost see that the robots from Season 1 Picard could be part of that tale.
The Season 1 robots - who I quite liked but were so unbelievably stupid they thought that giving someone a new body with all the diseases, damage and problems of old age was a good idea.
I sort of think each season of Picard was in its own, incrasingly stupid universe but thats being generous to the "writers"
Some people (in this case either the writers or directors) are really invested in the idea that immortality or nigh-immortality is a problem.
But honestly in this case it just seems a cruel way to go about it. Just forgo the pain and if he's really invested in dying, just run a couple simulations to give a likely death day and put in a X year 'death toggle' with +/- 100 days.
Personally, I think it would have been more interesting if they'd focused on the fact that this is really a completely different entity that just happens to be running a Picard personality emulator.
If memory serves, it was a prototype Soong Jr had been working on. I don’t think they asked Picard if he wanted the full body prosthesis.
My guess is they felt shunting his mind into a new body without consent is one thing, with shunting it into a near immortal new body without consent is quite another.
Been a while since I watched that season, so it may be more explicit in the show.
I think a bit part of Soongs work was to try and create "perfect" artificial life. That included everything from learning to emotions to even the concept of old age and death.
Soong did it once before for his wife; built her a body that would naturally age, wither and die upon a set date. Picard's body appears to be an extension of that desire to not just create an artificial body but create a perfect copy of organic life with machine life.
I suspect some part of him wanted to create as perfect a copy, so that includes all the downsides that came with age, not just the growing old part.
I truly do not understand why anyone would want the pain and degredation that is growing old.....I see it in enough people in my life to know it is awful and now its coming for me....
I recall the anti-longevity nonsense in the Altered Carbon tv series - they should really read the Culture novels and lets face it in Trek there are no real issues with peope living much longer lives - especially when you have some races like Vulcans who already do but apparently its a bad thing for humans
Lastly if and when you have had enough - its not like you can't choose to die
Part of the human condition one might argue. If you remove the fear of death or the drive to live life to the fullest while you can, what's the point in doing anything? Plus most of the pain associated with getting old isn't a super big concern in the Federation, except with Picard who kept not taking medication because he was miserable for other reasons.
Yeah I figure for many in the Federation old age isn't as painful as it is today. Chances are there's a lot of medical, herbal and "I know this alien" methods that can take away the pain, cure ailments and even if they can't keep you alive forever, chances are you have a peaceful end for most.
Certainly not like it is today. So chances are old age isn't quite as feared.
But I think with ST it also hinges on the "human condition" angle heavily as well. That old age, that mortality and such are parts of being alive, part of living and that as such if you aspire to be alive those are part of the deal. Or at least it has to be the case only for Soong. It is, after all, his research and development and thus it will be designed to his concept of what artificial life should be.
Others in the Federation alone might argue for different approaches; eg a life-timer; or simply no end or such.
Gert wrote: Part of the human condition one might argue. If you remove the fear of death or the drive to live life to the fullest while you can, what's the point in doing anything? Plus most of the pain associated with getting old isn't a super big concern in the Federation, except with Picard who kept not taking medication because he was miserable for other reasons.
Even in the Federation its obvious you grow older, weaker, you die by inches and yards - they only seem to last a few decades more than we do.
Living for a few hundred even a few thousand years in good health would be so much better than degrading in body and or mind - and then if you have had enough - the you can choose to end it.
Do you know anyone who has the time to achive a fraction of what they wanted, what they could.....old age is the great enemy of our species, maybe we will defeat it in time...and that will be a great day.
Also why is longevity a bad thing for just humans and fine for other races....and why people are scared of it
Again I refer to the Culture novels - death is just an option when you grow tired of it all. That might take a 100 years or thousands or more - but they certainly don't grow old - unless they want to to experience something odd and unusual and then they can fix it.
Also why is longevity a bad thing for just humans and fine for other races....
Partly because races that are born with long-lives evolve society and natural structures that balance them out.
Humanity isn't "designed" to live for excessive lengths of time and thus it would seriously mess with our social structuring not to mention our breeding capacity and populations. I believe one episode of Original Series even touched on this with a world so heavily overpopulated it was standing-room-only on the surface.
It's important to note that some of ST's social elements are not purely set in their own setting and are values, ideals, concepts that are considered suitable in today's world being projected onto a sci-fi setting. So things like rampant overpopulation and excessive resource use exist even though in the ST universe at its point in history it could easily cope with a vast increase of population without much detriment to lifestyle or such. Heck with replicator technology and warp travel; you could expand in a lot of ways and that's before you get to mega-structures like a Dyson sphere.
Plus again these don't have to be ideals of the Federation, just Soong
Also why is longevity a bad thing for just humans and fine for other races....
Partly because races that are born with long-lives evolve society and natural structures that balance them out.
Humanity isn't "designed" to live for excessive lengths of time and thus it would seriously mess with our social structuring not to mention our breeding capacity and populations. I believe one episode of Original Series even touched on this with a world so heavily overpopulated it was standing-room-only on the surface.
It's important to note that some of ST's social elements are not purely set in their own setting and are values, ideals, concepts that are considered suitable in today's world being projected onto a sci-fi setting. So things like rampant overpopulation and excessive resource use exist even though in the ST universe at its point in history it could easily cope with a vast increase of population without much detriment to lifestyle or such. Heck with replicator technology and warp travel; you could expand in a lot of ways and that's before you get to mega-structures like a Dyson sphere.
Plus again these don't have to be ideals of the Federation, just Soong
As you say the Federation has the means and ability to have everyone live as long as they like and operate at their maximum physical and mental capacity.
Humanity is not designed to do anything - its just currently restricted by technology sadly.
The bigger issue is that unlike the TNG cast playing old versions of themselves in "All Good Things" back in 1994, they are that old now and have the real-life issues that come with aging. Killing Picard wasn't an option but replacing him with a prototype machine that simulated being old and had a lifespan similar to what Picard had left in human time was, even if it was rather silly.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr Morden wrote: As you say the Federation has the means and ability to have everyone live as long as they like and operate at their maximum physical and mental capacity.
Sort of. People certainly live long and disabilities aren't nearly as much of an obstacle as they are in modern times but genetically enhancing people is actually fully illegal in the Federation. Societal support is massive as well so even if there isn't a solution for something, the state doesn't just lock someone away or do the bare minimum.
Yeah but I figure they don't want to say "no to genetic engineering" but then turn around and go "But you can get a robot body that's exactly like a living one; only you won't ag, won't die and heck give it a while and I'm sure we can upgrade your brain with more RAM!"
Because then its basically going down the same pathway as genetics, just from a different angle
Overread wrote: Yeah but I figure they don't want to say "no to genetic engineering" but then turn around and go "But you can get a robot body that's exactly like a living one; only you won't ag, won't die and heck give it a while and I'm sure we can upgrade your brain with more RAM!"
Because then its basically going down the same pathway as genetics, just from a different angle
The thing is, with all the medical, societal and technological advances and the utter lack of a monetary drive behind them, there's no fight for science. If someone wants to dedicate their life to making a better Warp Drive they can do that and not worry about income, food or bills. You don't need immortality when life expectancy is high and there aren't any restrictions placed on your life.
Gert wrote: The thing is, with all the medical, societal and technological advances and the utter lack of a monetary drive behind them, there's no fight for science. If someone wants to dedicate their life to making a better Warp Drive they can do that and not worry about income, food or bills. You don't need immortality when life expectancy is high and there aren't any restrictions placed on your life.
Old age puts its own restrictions on life.
There is also no reason to condem people to old age and disease - to do so without reason is sadistic and cruel.
I for one don’t fear death or ageing. It’s a natural part of life, and unavoidable.
What I am genuinely terrified of though is Being The Last To Go. In the last few years, my immediate family have been dropping. I’ve seen inside nursing homes, and it’s not something I want for myself.
All joking aside, my friends know that if I’m diagnosed with something terminal? I’m not waiting for the reaper. Oh no. I’m cashing out whatever I can, then hookers, blow, straight over the nearest cliff. I don’t want to hang around. And whilst far from having a deathwish, I’d rather I’m not the last of my friends to be hanging on.
Now sure, Picard’s new body could’ve removed much of that. No disease. No disability, that does sound kind of appealing. But the “oh yeah and we didn’t ask you but you’re now the only one of your friends that’s functionally immortal”? No. Thank. You. And most certainly not without my explicit consent. That’s really no different to a Doctor just bumping me off rather than tell me I’ve got something terminal. It’s a decision for the individual and the individual alone.
Ageing is only currently unavoidable due to our primitive technology and resources.
Its the insidious degredation of everything that I hate about ageing - there is nothing good about it whatever people say.
Add to that 1/2 of us are going to get cancer (my father is currently fighting it) and then there is stuff like dementia......
On the decision - well they already made him a robot body without any consent - so its a very grey area so removing the defects that the biological body had fallen foul of would not have been any issue. Personally if they did that to me I would have been nothing but grateful.....
It’s definitely one thing to be cured. I know from when we lost Mum to cancer, she was offered at least one experimental treatment which would’ve extended life. At that point, she’d made her peace with mortality and opted out.
But to be cured and rendered relatively immortal? I don’t think that’s ethical, unless you can ensure that persons loved ones, and their loved ones, and their loved ones lovers ones follow suit. Because life can be lonely enough, let alone having to sit by and watch as your nearest and dearest drop away one by one.
There is also no reason to condem people to old age and disease - to do so without reason is sadistic and cruel.
Death is a part of life, to deny it is to deny living.
And once again, medicine within the Federation is far more advanced than we are and the societal issues faced by many today just don't exist. You don't need health insurance or need to wait years for surgeries because there is no money holding anything back. No underfunded health service or living from paycheck to paycheck avoiding medical bills. Those problems are gone.
The whole point of the Federation is that it is a utopian society. Nobody is "condemned" to old age because the problems we associate with it are largely gone. Yes, some conditions and diseases will still exist but the vast majority have measures or medications that reduce their severity and suffering. In TNG, they literally grow Worf a whole new spine.
There is also no reason to condem people to old age and disease - to do so without reason is sadistic and cruel.
Death is a part of life, to deny it is to deny living.
And once again, medicine within the Federation is far more advanced than we are and the societal issues faced by many today just don't exist. You don't need health insurance or need to wait years for surgeries because there is no money holding anything back. No underfunded health service or living from paycheck to paycheck avoiding medical bills. Those problems are gone.
The whole point of the Federation is that it is a utopian society. Nobody is "condemned" to old age because the problems we associate with it are largely gone. Yes, some conditions and diseases will still exist but the vast majority have measures or medications that reduce their severity and suffering. In TNG, they literally grow Worf a whole new spine.
Death is a part of our life - perhaps in a better future it will be a choice, an option to be taken when one desires to do so...or not. And longevity is not immortality....many races in the ST universe do very well with with living for hundreds of years or more....
And yet those that live in the Federation grow older...weaker........they suffer from diseases and conditions.....not all injuries are fixable as shown in the various shows. The Next gen crew seemed very happy with the revilitaisation effects of the Ba'ku planet as well....
The Federation also doesn't like genetic tampering even though the benefits can be clearly seen. So you're fighting against the social and cultural elements of the Federation and upon what its founded.
These are the ideals that the people of the Federation - at large - live by.
It might be that in a generation or two those values will change. Perhaps positronic bodies will become more and more accepted and potentially used as a form of after-life-extension.
Holograms are also another potential avenue which also gets around a lot of space and other issues. Just have yourself preserved in an eternal Holodeck.
Then you've got genetic tampering which DS9 touched on. Perhaps in another few generations the Federation will change its stance as more like Basheer sneak through the barriers.
Mr Morden wrote: Death is a part of our life - perhaps in a better future it will be a choice, an option to be taken when one desires to do so...or not. And longevity is not immortality....many races in the ST universe do very well with with living for hundreds of years or more....
And yet those that live in the Federation grow older...weaker........they suffer from diseases and conditions.....not all injuries are fixable as shown in the various shows. The Next gen crew seemed very happy with the revilitaisation effects of the Ba'ku planet as well....
Death is a natural process, it's not just part of Human life but all life. Now as has been pretty clearly explained about four or five times now, Human life has already been extended beyond current averages (100 by the time of Enterprise and about 130 by TNG) while also being far more fulfilling and enriched than modern life. Other races live longer lives but they still aren't functionally immortal and still grow old because death is still an important part of life. It's not a condemnation to grow old if the society in which one does so supports them which the Federation does. You seem to be under the impression that getting old is only awful and terrible while refusing to take what anyone has said here into account.
As for Insurrection, bad dialog and a rubbish plot do not a good example make.
Mr Morden wrote: Death is a part of our life - perhaps in a better future it will be a choice, an option to be taken when one desires to do so...or not. And longevity is not immortality....many races in the ST universe do very well with with living for hundreds of years or more....
And yet those that live in the Federation grow older...weaker........they suffer from diseases and conditions.....not all injuries are fixable as shown in the various shows. The Next gen crew seemed very happy with the revilitaisation effects of the Ba'ku planet as well....
Death is a natural process, it's not just part of Human life but all life. Now as has been pretty clearly explained about four or five times now, Human life has already been extended beyond current averages (100 by the time of Enterprise and about 130 by TNG) while also being far more fulfilling and enriched than modern life. Other races live longer lives but they still aren't functionally immortal and still grow old because death is still an important part of life. It's not a condemnation to grow old if the society in which one does so supports them which the Federation does. You seem to be under the impression that getting old is only awful and terrible while refusing to take what anyone has said here into account.
As for Insurrection, bad dialog and a rubbish plot do not a good example make.
No - the on screen depiction of ST shows us that humans grow old, fat and degrade - I agree there is more mitigation in the Federation than we have much more but they still perish in a mere century - degarding all the time. Thats clearly seen in Picard - yes its the actor who is degrading but its also obivously part of the ST Universe.
Death may be an important part of life for you but for me its a limitation that in time should become nothing more than a choice of if and when - currently there is no choice - you degrade and perish, and everything you could have achieved, enjoyed dies with you. I work with alot of old people - and you see them slowly fade and decline as minds and bodies fail them - its a very sad thing. Thats what I saw in recent ST - the people slowly dying.
I think we all understand you’d jump at the chance of immortality.
And….entirely fair enough. Your life, your choice. Your ongoing never ending choice at that point.
But I do not want to become immortal. At all. I don’t want my life extended beyond mental and physical capacity. I don’t want to be kept alive Just Because Modern Medical Science Can Do It. I want quality of life.
Hence, if I’m diagnosed with something terminal? Cash out my pension. All the blow, all the hookers, where’s the nearest cliff, YEET!”.
If it’s someone in a coma? Where like Picard, we can port them into a new body, previously devoid of sentience? Yes. By all means do that. You’re preserving the consciousness.
But simply….do not make that new body immortal without asking it’s soon-to-be-inhabitant if they want to be immortal.
Mr Morden wrote: No - the on screen depiction of ST shows us that humans grow old, fat and degrade - I agree there is more mitigation in the Federation than we have much more but they still perish in a mere century - degarding all the time. Thats clearly seen in Picard - yes its the actor who is degrading but its also obivously part of the ST Universe.
Death may be an important part of life for you but for me its a limitation that in time should become nothing more than a choice of if and when - currently there is no choice - you degrade and perish, and everything you could have achieved, enjoyed dies with you. I work with alot of old people - and you see them slowly fade and decline as minds and bodies fail them - its a very sad thing. Thats what I saw in recent ST - the people slowly dying.
I'm going to have to disagree on your philosophy regarding death as I believe your argument to be utterly selfish. The prospect of an eventual death can give people motivation to achieve their dreams and goals, and when combined with a society where there are no worries about money or requirements to work it makes it all the better. People have that century of life to achieve whatever they want, even if that achievement is extending life even further. But their lives work means all the more if others are inspired to carry it on after their death which in turn can lead to new ideas and inventions stemming from new minds. Take Jonathan Archer as an example. What pushed him to become the man he was? His father never got to see the engine he built in action, which in turn led Archer to become the first captain of the Enterprise lineage and one of (if not the most) important figures in the founding of the entire Federation. If Archer's father never dies, Archer never joins Starfleet, and the Federation isn't formed. Eternity leads to stagnation and stagnation leads to the destruction of a society. One way or another, immortality leads straight back to death.
You might work with old people now but you don't live in a utopia. You live in a time where we are stuck with the whims of corporations and health systems that are underfunded and degraded year after year. Your perspective is flawed and you refuse to acknowledge that. You also aren't the only person ever to experience the degradation of people you care about so don't act like you know everything.
Mr Morden wrote: No - the on screen depiction of ST shows us that humans grow old, fat and degrade - I agree there is more mitigation in the Federation than we have much more but they still perish in a mere century - degarding all the time. Thats clearly seen in Picard - yes its the actor who is degrading but its also obivously part of the ST Universe.
Death may be an important part of life for you but for me its a limitation that in time should become nothing more than a choice of if and when - currently there is no choice - you degrade and perish, and everything you could have achieved, enjoyed dies with you. I work with alot of old people - and you see them slowly fade and decline as minds and bodies fail them - its a very sad thing. Thats what I saw in recent ST - the people slowly dying.
I'm going to have to disagree on your philosophy regarding death as I believe your argument to be utterly selfish. The prospect of an eventual death can give people motivation to achieve their dreams and goals, and when combined with a society where there are no worries about money or requirements to work it makes it all the better. People have that century of life to achieve whatever they want, even if that achievement is extending life even further. But their lives work means all the more if others are inspired to carry it on after their death which in turn can lead to new ideas and inventions stemming from new minds. Take Jonathan Archer as an example. What pushed him to become the man he was? His father never got to see the engine he built in action, which in turn led Archer to become the first captain of the Enterprise lineage and one of (if not the most) important figures in the founding of the entire Federation. If Archer's father never dies, Archer never joins Starfleet, and the Federation isn't formed. Eternity leads to stagnation and stagnation leads to the destruction of a society. One way or another, immortality leads straight back to death.
You might work with old people now but you don't live in a utopia. You live in a time where we are stuck with the whims of corporations and health systems that are underfunded and degraded year after year. Your perspective is flawed and you refuse to acknowledge that. You also aren't the only person ever to experience the degradation of people you care about so don't act like you know everything.
Lets agree to disagree - and perhaps you should re-read your own statements to see who is claiming to be the moral authority of the universe?
Althought you seem to completly ignore my repeated statement that elmination of the ageing process gives you a choice - our current biological limitations and shown evidently on screen by the citizens of the Federation those do not give a choice only an inervitable decline leading to death.
Look at Picard season 1 - he is old and dying, a sad shadow of his former self physically. How is that a good thing?
Why do you want people to degrade phycially and mentally - I truely do not understand you. I said get rid of that and let people choose when (or if) they die- many may choose to do so when they fill they done eveything they want.
I think we all understand you’d jump at the chance of immortality.
And….entirely fair enough. Your life, your choice. Your ongoing never ending choice at that point.
But I do not want to become immortal. At all. I don’t want my life extended beyond mental and physical capacity. I don’t want to be kept alive Just Because Modern Medical Science Can Do It. I want quality of life.
Hence, if I’m diagnosed with something terminal? Cash out my pension. All the blow, all the hookers, where’s the nearest cliff, YEET!”.
If it’s someone in a coma? Where like Picard, we can port them into a new body, previously devoid of sentience? Yes. By all means do that. You’re preserving the consciousness.
But simply….do not make that new body immortal without asking it’s soon-to-be-inhabitant if they want to be immortal.
But Picard in a young body could still end himself at any point.....its a choice to continue or not - sticking him in a failing physical body just condenms him to death and degredation?
Mr Morden wrote: Look at Picard season 1 - he is old and dying, a sad shadow of his former self physically. How is that a good thing?
That's because he's depressed you muppet. He's also never recovered from being assimilated by the bloody Borg, a condition that very few people ever actually have to live with. If you're going to pick an example at least pick a good one.
If you wanted to sit down with someone to watch Picard, assuming you skipped Season 2 completely (and who wouldn't), what episodes of Season 1 would you say are vital/important for context in Season 3? I mean the first and last (I genuinely love the final scene with Data in Season 1), but any else?
If you wanted to sit down with someone to watch Picard, assuming you skipped Season 2 completely (and who wouldn't), what episodes of Season 1 would you say are vital/important for context in Season 3? I mean the first and last (I genuinely love the final scene with Data in Season 1), but any else?
You can't really split it up.
It's not like the old seasons where you could just cherry pick because everything starts and ends the same. Picard is a tight story driven narrative where each episode is basically unique in structure to the next and relies on the previous to make sense. It's more like a long drawn out film broken into episodes. So for someone new to the season you really cannot cherry pick parts out because the story will just not make any sense what so ever.
Even skipping season 2 will be quite baffling as a lot of characters shift around in relationships, positions and roles. Granted its more possible because a lot of the new cast are missing and replaced with old cast and most are kind of sort of ish where they were at the end of season 1 again. However a few things might be confusing (like why Rafie and 7 are broken up or Picards relationship with a Romulan which might be one of the weaker points of season 3 because that was swept out very fast and kind of didn't return for the end since the end of 3 was more of a TNG thing)
finished season 2 yesterday and to add this, it all feels more like the stretched a single episode or two part episode over a "season"
Season 2 was not bad compared to the first one but could have been done in less episodes, specially as it was clear what they are going for after the 2nd episode
so it is more like which part of an episode to skip rather than leaving out filler episodes and therefore don'st skip it
If you wanted to sit down with someone to watch Picard, assuming you skipped Season 2 completely (and who wouldn't), what episodes of Season 1 would you say are vital/important for context in Season 3? I mean the first and last (I genuinely love the final scene with Data in Season 1), but any else?
As long as you know that A) Picard's original body died and he was put into a synthetic body replicating his old one and that B) Data died a 'final' death I'd say you don't even need to watch them.
Overread wrote: So for someone new to the season you really cannot cherry pick parts out because the story will just not make any sense what so ever.
As someone who has suffered through the first two seasons, I know that's not the case. I'm just a very continuity driven guy, and am trying to break away for that for the benefit of my friend's sanity (and time), hence my asking what would others include or exclude from Season 1.
Overread wrote: Even skipping season 2 will be quite baffling as a lot of characters shift around in relationships, positions and roles. Granted its more possible because a lot of the new cast are missing and replaced with old cast and most are kind of sort of ish where they were at the end of season 1 again. However a few things might be confusing (like why Rafie and 7 are broken up or Picards relationship with a Romulan which might be one of the weaker points of season 3 because that was swept out very fast and kind of didn't return for the end since the end of 3 was more of a TNG thing)
Season 3 didn't even watch Season 2! That final scene basically went "Nah, forget about all that!".
I’ve only now realised season 2 of Strange new worlds is so close!! I’m excited. This and lower decks are the only new trek I’ve enjoyed so it’s nice to get some more of it!!
Commander Pallell (unsure on spelling) just jumped to amongst my Favourite Characters.
Really interesting opener.
Spoiler:
I’m a bit wiped on Spock at the moment, as he feels overused. The actor is good, but just a bit….over him. YMMV.
Klingons were fantastic. Nice to see the D-7, and I’m pretty sure that’s the same Klingon that becomes Chancellor in time for The Undiscovered Country? Or is meant to be.
Commander Pallell is a revelation, just fantastic stuff. Interesting character, and plenty of hints at a Very Interesting Past which I can only hope we get to explore in future, even if just as Wise Old Mentor Says, without it feeling particularly necessary to explain her actions here.
Overall quite good. Only minor nits to pick on the final action sequence.
Spoiler:
Spock should have hailed the Klingons the moment they engaged the other ship, told them what was coming. The fact the Klingons didn’t see them until the left the rings speaks poorly of their sensor tech. Enterprise hiding in low power mode? Sure. Two ships on full combat maneuvers firing weapons and exploding photon torpedoes? Visit your eye doctor.
… Ok I have more. Did they mention any horrible side effects from the green juice, or why are they not more frequently using that stuff that lets two medical staff members take down a dozen+ Klingons in hand to hand combat?
Stop saying you’ll freeze to death in a minute in space! It would take you Hours to freeze in space! There’s nothing in a vacuum for your body heat to transfer to, that’s why my yeti coolers are so dang effective.
"Hey Showrunner! Remember when I told you we wouldn't be able to design, build, and render a new starship design in time for the premier episode, so you'd have to re-use the Discovery model instead? Well... surprise! Me and the guys did a couple late nights and check it out! We managed to get every effects shot you asked for with the kitbash ship you wanted!"
"That's... Wow. That's perfect. Great job, team! I had no idea! Wow! I even had the script guys make changes to account for that. Did you have the director and editor send me fake dailies where they call it a Crossfield Class like twice? Oh man, well done! I didn't suspect a thing!"
Overall the episode was a solid return to form, I only really have a couple of major objections:
Spoiler:
M'Benga employing crude torture as a means of getting information says something unflattering about his character, the fact that it works at all and is no more than an expedient tool to give the character information says something unflattering about the writer.
During their ship rampage there's a scene where they climb into a hatch on the floor, the camera turns upside-down for no reason, goes to the next deck down, they climb out of the hatch on the ceiling, land on the floor, then the camera turns right-side up again. Why did it do that?
So we have another episode joining the ranks of Star Trek Court Room Dramas.
Whilst not a bad episode, it’s not up to Measure of a Man, Tribunal or Drumhead. The arguments and structure are there, but lacking a Picard it just doesn’t hit the heights of Measure of a Man or Drumhead. And being a Federation court, it lacks the loony twists and turns of an alien Judiciary we saw in Tribunal.
That being said. If I hadn’t seen those other episodes? I’d have been perfectly satisfied with this one.
If you’ve not seen those other three? Watch this ‘un first and enjoy it. Because there’s plenty to enjoy. Then go and watch the others to see why I think it just doesn’t quite make muster.
All kidding aside it was a fine episode although I'm not fully convinced that genetic modification is in the same realm as some of the examples proffered.
Mad props to the guest actor who had to come onto that show and deliver the lion's share of the episode's dialogue. That's a lot to ask for someone who isn't part of the main cast.
This episode could have worked as the season opener, maybe tie the enterprise leaving in and then show why in the subsequent episode - though that's more for fun and probably would have cost us the brilliant scene of Spock's outburst with that Vulcan admiral.
Honestly after watching it I thought this episode would be more controversial to people. I'd figured the usual corner of the internet would be wailing over the direct and unapologetic civil rights parallels. More importantly...
Spoiler:
This episode directly confronts the fact that the ideal of what a perfect progressive society entails has changed over time. DS9 did this previously with Bashir's arc, arguing that what was the cutting edge of equality in the 60s wasn't the same as what it is in the 90s and for the need for society to continually challenge its moors; and here SNW acknowledges, bluntly, that those who struggle for acknowledgement today were struggling back then and did not materialize out of nowhere.
I do also think it contrasts sharply with their use of gay, trans and non-binary characters and actors in an era where previous shows would never have been allowed to do that, and them making a point of mentioning LGBT issues along with other civil rights history is the filmmakers nodding to the camera and telling their critics they know they aren't being subtle here and had no intention to be.
I do think people will tear down the legal arguments here, it certainly passes the low bar that is TV court, but it's not particularly mind blowing.
Spoiler:
I do wonder what this means for the broader federation. They successfully argued (and rightly so) that the Federation gives starfleet captains broad permission to violate the prime directive because they're the ones in the situation and able to make the call on whether it does more harm than good - and that it must therefore apply to other laws must be a given. That they then successfully argued that Starfleet (personified by Pike) gave asylum to someone to protect them from the Federation itself should, presumably, be a massive shock to the Federation and its people, shouldn't it?
And that's why I hate the streaming system. We don't just have shows scattershot all over the place and getting dropped; but you also run the risk that because the studio only ever streamed it, when they decide to cut it from the service (for whatever reason) there's a high chance is just outright vanishes from anywhere that isn't a pirate distribution site. No DVD/Bluray, no nothing.
well, Star Trek was the one franchise you needed to buy physical because there was no one place to watch it
paramount+ now was the chance to change that but it didn't
was not thrilled to subscribe before and definitely won't do it now and it is the BluRay instead
Paramount+ has canceled its kids-focused animated series Star Trek: Prodigy, and like most streaming services will attempt to save some money by completely removing it from the platform. As we've seen with others like DIsney+ and Warner Bros. Discovery, removing Star Trek: Prodigy will allow Paramount+ to take a tax write-off for the "underperforming series."
Everyone decided to make their own Netflix, but with hookers and blackjack only to find out hookers and blackjack are expensive and the only reason Netflix made so much money was because they didn't have any real competition.
We've entered the find-out stage of the streaming bubble, where moronic CEOs once again prove that business is about nepotism more than capability.
It's not even lack of competition, there's also a stark element of market over-saturation. People don't want to spend a fortune each month to grab the handful of shows they want to keep up with because they are spread over 5 different services.
I am a bit of a streaming slag. At present, I have subs to BritBox, Disney+ (which in the U.K. includes Star which is Hulu’s Greatest Hits), Amazon Prime and Paramount+.
All in? It’s a smidge over £20 a month. Disney+ however I do as an annual sub.
So I’m definitely paying much less than I would compared to a satellite or cable subscription.
No it’s not as good as the glory days of streaming, when Netflix wasn’t 99.9% crap and for a reasonable price, and you just needed Prime on top. But it’s still a good distance away from Cable. Spesh as nobody is getting tied into ever worse value bundles.
Automatically Appended Next Post: SNW S2 E3
Spoiler:
Slightly mixed feelings on this one.
It’s a competent enough episode, but I was rolling my eyes a bit at returning to Khan again.
But overall the plot makes sense, it doesn’t interfere with or take liberties with canon. I just kind of wish Khan had been more of an Easter Egg, and the main target was someone else.
It’s not that Khan is necessarily an uninteresting character. But I find the constant “hey kids, ‘member this guy!” a bit lazy.
I don't think it's a spoiler to say this was a huge relief, I think a lot of people were saying the episode with Kirk and La'an was going to be the Lower Decks crossover episode which would have been a massive waste of potential for both those ideas. (And would have had a minimal amount of Captain Pike as a lot of these early episodes will be due to the shooting constraints.)
It is a spoiler to say this though:
Spoiler:
Kirk missidentifying the streets of Toronto for the streets of New York is hilarious. Perfectly in character and a perfect TV/Movie production gag rolled into one.
As for the episode itself...
Spoiler:
A solid time travel story that benefits somewhat from SNW's tendency to not drift too far from TOS' storytelling precidents. The core dillema, while evoking some of the ideas from DS9 and especially Voyager era time travel stories (with the go back and set right what someone else is setting wrong thing) ultimately hinges on our protagonist resisting the temptation to change the past for selfish reasons and taking on the grief of that decision. That it contrasts so hard with Picard's bungling of a time travel plot is just the icing on the cake.
Christina Chong and Paul Wesley are certainly helping to carry that story too.
Implications though!
Spoiler:
A while back I noted that it was weird that Quality of Mercy seemed to go out of its way to show the Romulan ship didn't have that old war-weary sub-commander who shared the commander's view that war with the Federation would be a bad thing. It was one of many obvious changes from Balance of Terror but the only one that stood out as not obviously explainable by having Pike avoid his accident. That the commander takes his (newly minted, much younger) sub-commander aside to tell him about his dead old friend seemed to be about assuring the audience it was intentional and not merely a casting choice.
Now, we have an episode where Romulans (with access to a TOS-ish era ship) have built a computer to help them make edits to history for the long-term benefit of the Empire! I hope we keep following up on this!
The comment the agent makes about time 'reacting' to their efforts to change things ("this was supposed to happen in 1992, I've been stuck here for THIRTY YEARS!") is also a curious observation. Could it be that there's actually some kind of temporal elasticity at play or are these deviations being caused by the different factions like the future federation's temporal investigations department and whatever Wesley Crusher is doing mucking about with everything?
Small observation: I like that future transport effect. It's a good visual precursor to the ultra-fast 'blip' transporter effect of Discovery in the 32nd century.
I don’t think the Romulan ship was part of the future force. The impression I got was Romulans had been messing around with humans for a long time, slowing them down in small ways. Lady from the future thought they had been doing too little and went back to change something big.
I’d be surprised if we see too much more of it. It was clearly unintentional bringing them in the first time, so I doubt they’d go back and do it again. We’re supposed to be developing the Gorn war more this season I think.
I enjoyed it for the most part and it was nice to see them show Kirk as not just a charismatic fool who gets lucky following his gut. In TOS he was one of the few people to constantly beat Spock at chess so it was a nice call back to that bit of character.
Spoiler:
Is it awkward for the audience to know that Kirk fell a little bit, and vice versa, for the great grandkid of one of his premier enemies? It is for the best that neither of them know that?
I'm sure the ominous music and focusing on the watch that probably shouldn't be in our timeline isn't foreshadowing.
I wasn’t the biggest fan of this episode. It was ok and all, but I’m just not a fan of the guy playing Kirk. He looks like a young gurning Jim Carrey and I think the whole episode would have been a lot more fun if Pike rather than Kirk was on the adventure. I understand Anson Mount’s limited availability, but they should have used another main cast member rather than Kirk. It mostly seemed the reason to use Kirk was just
Spoiler:
so they could kill him at the end of the episode but they could do that with a main cast member if they used an “alternate reality” version.
The story was quite good, but I’m a bit confused by the Star Trek timeline nowadays. Well ever since reality caught up with the Star Trek time line.
Is the timeline for Strange New Worlds supposed to be in the same timeline as TOS, in which case, did the eugenics wars happen in the the 90s or not?
Overread wrote: It's not even lack of competition, there's also a stark element of market over-saturation. People don't want to spend a fortune each month to grab the handful of shows they want to keep up with because they are spread over 5 different services.
It's the same problem as ever: new technology opens up a totally untapped market, but that market is naturally monopolistic due to the underlying technology (i.e. the most efficient use of the infrastructure is probably one service providing everything instead of people maintaining half a dozen subscriptions concurrently) and cost-degression effects. So it's a mad dash and scramble among competitors - the service to grab the most market share will probably crowd out everyone else and at that point be able to collect monopolistic rents, which is very attractive, so the big ones compete on a basis of who can soak the losses the longest to offer artificially cheapened deals to attract people. We are now entering the phase where even the biggest players can't justify offering loss-leaders any more and are crying uncle.
Overread wrote: It's not even lack of competition, there's also a stark element of market over-saturation. People don't want to spend a fortune each month to grab the handful of shows they want to keep up with because they are spread over 5 different services.
It's the same problem as ever: new technology opens up a totally untapped market, but that market is naturally monopolistic due to the underlying technology (i.e. the most efficient use of the infrastructure is probably one service providing everything instead of people maintaining half a dozen subscriptions concurrently) and cost-degression effects. So it's a mad dash and scramble among competitors - the service to grab the most market share will probably crowd out everyone else and at that point be able to collect monopolistic rents, which is very attractive, so the big ones compete on a basis of who can soak the losses the longest to offer artificially cheapened deals to attract people. We are now entering the phase where even the biggest players can't justify offering loss-leaders any more and are crying uncle.
Particularly in the U.K. where it includes Star, I think Disney+ has got it right.
Not only is it reasonably priced in the market, but Disney’s own stuff is up there with Big Ticket Properties bought up before the streaming service launched.
Star is a free sub-channel which is essentially Hulu’s Greatest Hits. And so we in the U.K. indisputably get a better range of content than the US and other territories lacking Star.
Paramount+ basically has…..Star Trek. Oh and for me, Beavis and Butthead. But that’s about it in terms of tentpole properties. And so it compares very poorly against D+.
And that I think is what’s going to cause other “plusies” to fail. They just cannot offer the same variety of content as Netflix, Prime and D+. And so they’ll always look to be poor value, even when their price is a mere few quid a month.
Aash wrote: Is the timeline for Strange New Worlds supposed to be in the same timeline as TOS, in which case, did the eugenics wars happen in the the 90s or not?
I think the current idea is that it started small in the 90s in Europe & Africa, but didn't kick off 'globally' until the 2020s.
That was the explanation people came up with to explain why we weren't currently fighting the war even as the Dr. Bashir episode about it aired but it's always been the franchise kicking the can down the road another week.
Ironically, early TNG seemed to be going the opposite direction entirely, with multiple obviously human gattaca societies that the Federation flagship was more than willing to drop in and help out without comment.
WW3 is in the same boat for similar reasons. Ditto the Bell Riots which are scheduled to happen next year.
WW3 is in the same boat for similar reasons. Ditto the Bell Riots which are scheduled to happen next year.
To be fair, that last one is eerily not that far off from reality as income inequality continues to grow worse and the housing and homelessness crisis continue to escalate.
Aash wrote: Is the timeline for Strange New Worlds supposed to be in the same timeline as TOS, in which case, did the eugenics wars happen in the the 90s or not?
I think the current idea is that it started small in the 90s in Europe & Africa, but didn't kick off 'globally' until the 2020s.
this was canon for a long time now, that the Eugenics Wars were an Asian thing and while being big wars with millions of dead, not really affecting the countries on other continents
(also seen as the explanation why there are not a majority of asian people in the future, as Spock said about the Eugenic Wars, whole peoples were bombed out of existence)
and there was never a source stating that it affected the USA at all but they had their own problems with the "working poor" that lead to riots and civil unrest
like even the Bell Riots from DS9 and the Picard season 2 can happen parallel to each other because the wider society does not care what happens in the ghetto
also, what the future sees as 1 war, can be several different wars at present
an example, we talk about Napoleonic Wars as 1 conflict while in the past this were independent conflicts seen by the participants, the 7 years war is often still split into a European War, an Asian War and a North-American War
same with WW2, which is seen as 1 big conflict in some parts, while others split it into several smaller wars
like we have now a war in Middle East, North Africa, Eastern Europe, a Warlord as participant (Wagner PMC is present in all 3 of them) and depending on the end in 100-200 years they will be called the "Wagner Wars", make Wagner being lead by genetic modified humans, add Afganistan and Taiwan and you have the Eugenic Wars
WW3 can be also just a small conflict that effects the whole world because it is a nuclear one, like the leftovers of Russia bomb the USA who does not make a full counter charge and you have WW3 but with only 2 countries involved that was over in 2 hours
Another thing to consider is that we generally don't sit in history class and we get the general impression of past events in Star Trek.
Even today with 500+ years of history if you mention something like the Romans, many people mentally lump the entire era into 1 concept. As if 500 years was just 1 generation period.
We have video games and films and stories and such about "the romans" which often only mention the age or such in reference to who was ruling or in passing. It's not information most people latch onto unless they study it.
So its fully possible for very long periods of Startrek's history to be long periods of time, but are often spoken about as if they were very short events. Perhaps just focusing on the concept of the final elements of those major events when the buildup toward them was much longer.
I think the best way to look at things is on the macro scale and IMO that's how the Temporal Integrity Commission does it.
When we see the Enterprise crew meeting Khan 2267, at that time what they know of the past is correct from their viewpoint. Later on, many different groups travel through time, and events in history are altered, such as Sisko becoming the face of the Bell Riots.
However, the major events of the Prime timeline still all happen. The Eugenics Wars kick off at some point leading to a ban on genetic manipulation in the Federation, WW3 occurs leading to the events of First Contact and the alliance between Humanity and the Vulcans. Whether these events happen in 1992 or the 2040s, the end result is still the same.
The Temporal Integrity Commission could send agents to fix every single minor anachronism in the timeline, or they could focus on making sure the important events happen the way they need to unfold. The latter is much easier to accomplish.
I liked the new episode. I’m really enjoying Strange New Worlds and it’s the first Star Trek series I’ve really liked since ds9. Some of the others have been ok in parts, but this is almost halfway through season 2 and I don’t think there’s been a bad episode yet.
Aash wrote: I liked the new episode. I’m really enjoying Strange New Worlds and it’s the first Star Trek series I’ve really liked since ds9. Some of the others have been ok in parts, but this is almost halfway through season 2 and I don’t think there’s been a bad episode yet.
DS9 really had some depth. Especially, imho, Constable Odo and a few of the villains like Dukat and Eddington. The Ferengi were great for comic relief.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: It’s also possible certain temporal whoopsie and fiddling are solidly part of the desired timeline.
Exactly this was pointed out within the episode itself. When the Khan assassin went on her rant before being taken out she specifically mentioned how she was stuck waiting 30 years to complete her mission, which was a clever nod towards the original 90s date given.
Aash wrote: I liked the new episode. I’m really enjoying Strange New Worlds and it’s the first Star Trek series I’ve really liked since ds9. Some of the others have been ok in parts, but this is almost halfway through season 2 and I don’t think there’s been a bad episode yet.
DS9 really had some depth. Especially, imho, Constable Odo and a few of the villains like Dukat and Eddington. The Ferengi were great for comic relief.
I think the key to the comic relief of the Ferengi is that they weren't typecast to comic relief.
It was 100% there, but at the same time they also had a lot of serious moments. The social disparity and changes for hteir race; Rom joining Starfleet and growing up; Quark has a lot of very key and serious lines in the series and does a fantastic display of an established adult who wants to stick to what he grew up with, see huge amounts of change and steadily adapt and adjust his world views and attitudes.
I think thinking of them as comic relief is the wrong move, that's just one aspect of them and DS9 writer and actors just did a seriously good job of not playing into the trope so much that there was nothing else.
Quark in particular did a lot to redeem the Ferengi on the show.
Pointing out to Nog that strip away humanity’s creature comforts and we can quickly become worse than Klingons.
Throwing it in Sisko’s face that whilst the Federation frowns on Capitalism now, the Ferengi at least never indulged in Slavery etc.
His chat with Garak comparing the Federation to Root Beer.
In a way, they’re modern humans transplanted. A caricature yes, but easily the species closest to us for my money. A chance for the writer to hold up an only slightly fairground mirror to The Federation.
I think the other key is that the writers and actors on DS9 were keen to make characters not just tropes.
Which I think is also a lot easier when the writing is more structured on a non-weekly repeat system. Because when you've got episodes that are set to appear in a certain order you can more easily develop a character a little in each one. Allowing them to change and for them to show the change and also show more facets of them.
You also get the impression that many of the actors enjoyed their roles and put into them quite a lot of elements. Heck I believe the whole Root Beer chat was invented by the actors (it's either that one or another one with Quark and there might even be more than one).
I'd say its not just that they are "humans transplanted". It's more that they are characters allowed to be characters with many layers. Each episode we might peel a layer back and see another within; or see one change and evolve and soforth.
As I’ve said many times before, DS9 did a staggering job of fleshing out races. Bajoran, Cardassian, Ferengi, Vorta, Klingon, Jem Hagar, Changelings. About the only semi-major race not really explored would be the Breen, and even then that worked because they were presented as mysterious.
I completely agree that was them making the best of a serialised story, over an episodic approach. And it worked beautifully. Just so much packed into its seven seasons.
On a personal preferences note, DS9 has the fewest episodes in its run I’d actively skip on a watch through. Mainly the time travel one where Tony Todd plays an elderly Jake Sisko. It’s just not my jam.
Armin Shimmerman specifically saw his role as Quark as a way to redeem the Ferengi as he partially blamed himself for getting them into that comedic role in the first place with his original Ferengi guest role on TNG.
The studio plan was to have the Ferengi replace the Klingons as the big bads of this given series but it never materialised and they went with the more comedic route.
His Shuttlepod Show episode is probably the best one I've listened to so far because he's not only an amazing actor but a lovely person.
Aash wrote: I liked the new episode. I’m really enjoying Strange New Worlds and it’s the first Star Trek series I’ve really liked since ds9. Some of the others have been ok in parts, but this is almost halfway through season 2 and I don’t think there’s been a bad episode yet.
DS9 really had some depth. Especially, imho, Constable Odo and a few of the villains like Dukat and Eddington. The Ferengi were great for comic relief.
I think the key to the comic relief of the Ferengi is that they weren't typecast to comic relief.
It was 100% there, but at the same time they also had a lot of serious moments. The social disparity and changes for hteir race; Rom joining Starfleet and growing up; Quark has a lot of very key and serious lines in the series and does a fantastic display of an established adult who wants to stick to what he grew up with, see huge amounts of change and steadily adapt and adjust his world views and attitudes.
I think thinking of them as comic relief is the wrong move, that's just one aspect of them and DS9 writer and actors just did a seriously good job of not playing into the trope so much that there was nothing else.
Oh, I agree with you, there was a lot more to them than just that, such as Rom's bunt in "Take Me Out To the Holosuite", but it was the comic relief that made them fun. They weren't just loathsome, as in NextGen.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: It’s also possible certain temporal whoopsie and fiddling are solidly part of the desired timeline.
This is a big issue in the DTI book Watching the Clock: one of their best agents quite in fury when outside time agencies insist not only on leaving Janeway’s time shenanigans intact, but on refraining from punishing her for her temporal violations.
As Bill and Ted pointed out, only the winners can play the time game.
I suppose being human for a short period is just a bit less problematic than having your brain stolen, but not by much.
I like SNW but one thing that kind of sits at the back of my mind is that the Enterprise doesn't feel like a character in the way it did in TOS and NG. I'm not 100% sure how to describe it and I'm probably being a bit odd about it but it just kind of feels like it is there but not part of them. Still love the design of it.
Been looking forward to it. Meanwhile this weeks episode was ok. Generic plot that’s classic to Trek, knew what was going on pretty much immediately and then it was just waiting for them to figure it out.
AduroT wrote: Been looking forward to it. Meanwhile this weeks episode was ok. Generic plot that’s classic to Trek, knew what was going on pretty much immediately and then it was just waiting for them to figure it out.
This weeks episode. A standard issue crap analogy by Mad Doc Grotsnik, aged 43 and a bit.
This weeks episode was like having your Mum’s best staple dish for dinner. It’s a family favourite, and you know you’re going to enjoy it (for me, Mince and Tatties. Nobody could do Mince and Tatties like Mumsie) and it’s gonna be filling. Yet, you can’t help but find yourself wishing it had been something a little more exotic.
This week's was classic ToS / TNG from a story point of view and it was handled very well but I couldn't help feeling we had seen that same story multiple times in Trek.
I kind of feel that’s this season so far. Now that’s not necessarily a bad thing. I mean, Discovery didn’t follow the Trek Template particularly closely, and some folk didn’t appreciate that.
So SNW having a “look, this is to show we do understand Trek” is reassuring. And whilst not groundbreaking, the episodes haven’t been bland. It’s simple Trek fare, but done really well.
Each episode has let us get to know our central cast - something Disco didn’t really bother with. And that I feel is the secret to other Trek’s success.
It just needs a decent, recurring villain or menace to build alongside. TNG did really well with three. The Borg, Klingons and Romulans. DS9 did exceptionally well with the Maquis, Bajor, Cardassia and The Dominion.
Who should SNW adopt? I….dunno! Genuinely. But such is the problem with any prequel. Certain things can’t occur, because they happened later.
It's absolutely the Gorn. Apart from their appearances in season 1, the whole point of building the deuterium refinery in the nebula this week was that it's close to the edge of Gorn space and Starfleet is anticipating needing the supply lines for an impending war.
We saw the admiralty discussing Gorn incursions previously.
I wasn’t the biggest fan of this episode. It was fine I suppose and nice to see Uhura as the focus, but other than that it was a bit of a let down.
It was an obvious plot, admittedly an old staple, but it was obvious what was going on right from the start. A bit more effort in misdirection of the audience would have been nice.
I’m not a fan of the casting for James Kirk, I’ve thought that with each appearance and this one was no different. Also, I’m here for SNW not TOS, so if James Kirk has to be in it (he doesn’t) his part should be smaller. Give me more Pike instead.
The choice to destroy the station was baffling. Maybe I missed it, but was there any reason given for why they couldn’t shut down the station rather than destroying it? Just seems overkill.
And why are they dragging out the stuff with the new chief engineer. The whole dynamic between her and Una felt forced.
Overall, I think this is up there as my least favourite SNW episode to date. Still better than any other Star Trek in recent years though.
Definitely the Gorn as this series’ villain. I hope they do better with them than they have though as I’ve been rather disappointed by their depiction so far.
I definitely like that this series doesn’t have a main character the way Discovery does with Michael. God I hate Michael… You really get to know so much more of the crew on this ship.
I like their Kirk. He’s fun, and gets the smart stuff right instead of just pure action that people tend to reduce his character to now days.
As for blowing up the station, the shut down system wasn’t working. They couldn’t get it to turn off so they blew it up.
As an entry in the Nerdosphere? I feel singularly ill equipped to judge this film fairly.
Having watched TOS and the follow up films? This is of course pretty different. The model work alone is leaps and bounds beyond TOS. And we of course have what was, to the best of my knowledge, the first look at Klingons as we know and love them today.
The tone is also considerably more sober and “real” than TOS.
But all of this for me is in hindsight. I wasn’t there. I don’t know how good it was. How important. I saved up all my 50p’s and got started with TNG.
Its sequels aired more frequently on TV when I was small, so again this movie will always stick out for me.
And I do kind of wish I had been there for the debut. Mostly out of interest to see what I’d have made of it at the time, without having my views and indeed preferences so heavily coloured by its descendant media.
I like their Kirk. He’s fun, and gets the smart stuff right instead of just pure action that people tend to reduce his character to now days.
My issue with this Kirk is more with the actor than the characterisation. Paul Wesley is 40, and looks it. Shatner was 35 in TOS, and IIRC season one wasn’t his first assignment as Captain. Even if it was, he’s 5 years younger than Wesley is now and that’s supposed to be a younger Kirk (the youngest 1st Officer in the fleet!). Chris Pine was 29 in Star Trek (2009).
On top of this I don’t find the actor charismatic at all. Just horribly miscast IMHO.
I actually really like Paul Wesley and I definitely don't think he looks 40. I would have guessed much closer to 30 to be honest. I'm not surprised people take issue with him though, Kirk is such a colossally large persona in the fandom that even if we cloned Shatner and had him play the character over again we'd still have fans up in arms about it. I think Paul is doing a great job and I look forward to seeing more of him.
The biggest problem with Kirk is that the same actor should be playing both Sam and James, just that Sam has a mustache.
I recall at the time that most people thought of TMP as visually nice as the fx were high end, but that the plot was cumbersome and plodding; good ideas but the execution was numbing. Time and a directors cut have helped it a bit but still a bit of a chore to sit through.
Yeah I’d say that accurate. An ambitious bit of film making, not least resurrecting Trek. But plodding. So plodding.
The plot itself is overall pretty interesting. But it’s a bit indulgent with its SFX. I mean, it’s 40 minutes before The Enterprise is away on its mission. And a good chunk of that are extended “look how pretty this model is”. And we get far too many “the crew look in awe” shots.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Yeah I’d say that accurate. An ambitious bit of film making, not least resurrecting Trek. But plodding. So plodding.
The plot itself is overall pretty interesting. But it’s a bit indulgent with its SFX. I mean, it’s 40 minutes before The Enterprise is away on its mission. And a good chunk of that are extended “look how pretty this model is”. And we get far too many “the crew look in awe” shots.
But for all that? It is pretty enjoyable.
How dare you, sir. How can you badmouth one of the most visually stunning bits of Trek ship porn in the history of the franchise, second only to the Enterprise rising from the ocean on Nibiru? The extended flight around the Enterprise gets played by me daily...
Ahtman wrote: The biggest problem with Kirk is that the same actor should be playing both Sam and James, just that Sam has a mustache.
I recall at the time that most people thought of TMP as visually nice as the fx were high end, but that the plot was cumbersome and plodding; good ideas but the execution was numbing. Time and a directors cut have helped it a bit but still a bit of a chore to sit through.
There were big parts of the movie that were just the FX team fellating themselves.
The FX were impressively done, so unsurprisingly where all the real effort went is what people appreciate about the movie. Even if you accounted for the plot being cumbersome nad plodding, it was also just plain boring.
TMP was a mediocre episode of TOS stretched out to the length of a movie with a budget that enabled the visuals to go wild. And it was a very pretty movie. It's honestly still pretty good. Ancient by the standards of film but the FX are on par, or outright better, than what you'll see in corny C movies.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Yeah I’d say that accurate. An ambitious bit of film making, not least resurrecting Trek. But plodding. So plodding.
The plot itself is overall pretty interesting. But it’s a bit indulgent with its SFX. I mean, it’s 40 minutes before The Enterprise is away on its mission. And a good chunk of that are extended “look how pretty this model is”. And we get far too many “the crew look in awe” shots.
But for all that? It is pretty enjoyable.
How dare you, sir. How can you badmouth one of the most visually stunning bits of Trek ship porn in the history of the franchise, second only to the Enterprise rising from the ocean on Nibiru? The extended flight around the Enterprise gets played by me daily...
Thinking about it? That was probably the first time any Trekkie got a proper full tour of the Enterprise, which is certainly something we should keep in mind.
An indulgence sure, but a deserved one on balance.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It’s..ok, I guess? But then I’m near allergic to Lower Decks, so can’t pretend I can have a balanced opinion on this.
I don’t regret watching it, but I can’t see myself including it in any re-watches of this season.
I didn't realize they were staggered quite that far apart as there is still five more days here until release. That does explain the "ending to episode 7 explained" on YouTube. I wouldn't watch it either way but I thought it was a little early for such a things but since it already is out that makes more sense.
The episode was released here today too. I enjoyed it despite having only seen a couple of episodes of Lower Decks. It was a little jarring seeing the LD characters acting in character alongside the more serious characters of SNW, but I still enjoyed it thoroughly.
Gert wrote:Yeah but who doesn't love a ship flyby?
funny enough that this movie was to first to have something like this, we know how the Enterprise looks now and the flyby is a stable in all movies, but imagine you know Trek only from a 20" screen and than get this in cinema, of course everything else in the movie will be worse compared to this (specially as the effects for V'Ger did not came to its full potential until the remastered HD version)
pgmason wrote:Not for nothing is it known as "Star Trek: The Slow Motion Picture".
which was intended as they did not want to make another Star Wars copy but something different so we got the opposite of Star Wars, which was the better choice in the long run
But if you don't like Lower Decks you might not like the episode. The two styles of show do kind of clash a bit imo. They don't quite mesh super well together.
As a huge fan of both shows, I gotta say this was even better than I was expecting. That was a beautiful crossover. I've seen its already made some new lower decks fans and I think that's great cause the show honestly is really good. Not just hilarious but genuinely well written.
I just finished, I liked the humor between everyone and the jabs at ths shows from tge other show.
Outside of two specific places i, there was no real jokes about one being animation and one being live action
Just watched episode 7 and thoroughly enjoyed it. Being a fan of both SNW and lower decks I expected to like it, but it definitely felt more like a lower decks episode than a SNW one. I thought it was an odd choice to put the focus on the the guest stars rather than the SNW cast.
I got the impression that a SNW fan that doesn’t watch lower decks might feel a bit left out. And as much as I enjoyed the references to other trek throughout, it felt a little too much that I imagine a casual viewer would feel like they were missing the joke rather than an occasional Easter egg that you wouldn’t notice you had missed unless you knew the reference.
Ok, having the start of the episode just be Lower Decks animation was an inspired way of starting the episode, as was the fully cartoon replacement for the opening titles.
Some of what we saw made me think of M*A*S*H without the jokes and set in space, at least all the medical stuff. Meatball surgery and all that. Obviously that was mostly set dressing for the real drama, but still.
ZergSmasher wrote: Some of what we saw made me think of M*A*S*H without the jokes and set in space
That is pretty much exactly what it was except at the end it wasn't a chicken that was killed. Of course in the M*A*S*H finale it wasn't a chicken either. I did get a kick out of the misunderstood sayings that had been warped over the years plus, you know, Clint Howard. After all a broken crock gets rice twice a day.
I did think at one point (when they mentioned something was toxic in large doses) that it would turn out to be a Star Trek VI style Klingon murder mystery but glad they didn't go down that route.
But really solid performances from all involved, some tight direction and a lovely shift in tone from last week's.
Lower decks has mentioned it several times. And withvthe defeat of their other villains, they could use a new one.
The only ones who could follow-up are canceled(prodigy) or theoretical (legacy)
Alright, that was fun. Nothing ground breaking in terms of plot, just a lot of inter character drama, but the musical bits were well done. I was not prepared for the Klingons.
I thought he was going to be somehow immune at first. When they were doing the initial song and he was standing there looking bewildered I thought he hadn’t been effected because he wasn’t part of the crew, but it didn’t last.
Well, that was...something. Honestly I enjoyed it more than I thought I would. I was actually wondering for some reason if it was really the on-screen actors singing; if so, then some of them might have missed their calling.
This is when it really found its feet, and became more of its own thing. Some genuinely classic episodes and for me, a marked improvement in the noise to signal ratio. Certainly you can see the cast, crew and writers room pushing it all in a stronger direction.
I talked about tonal shift between episodes in my last comment and here we have the same again.
But I really, really enjoyed this episode.
It's inevitable that it will be compared to Buffy's "Once more with feeling" but it's not an unfair comparison and I think both achieved the same thing - telling the audience things about the characters inner most feelings that they wouldn't normally share on screen.
I think where Buffy did it better was we had had so many seasons to build up the characters but I still think SNW did a good job this episode.
It’s what I had assumed they would, and thus nothing could have prepared me for what we got. While I Did laugh at it, it was a jarring, scene breaking moment that was there purely for laughs and not because it made any sense for the rest of the episode.
Gert wrote: I tried, I really did. But I cannot stand musicals.
Is all good, the Lower Decks crossover was always gonna be a hard sell for me. And always remember? You or I not enjoying does not objective crap make.
When they said the solution to the problem was that "they all had to sing together and project the power of love and friendship" I died a little inside and sank into my chair.
Ahtman wrote: When they said the solution to the problem was that "they all had to sing together and project the power of love and friendship" I died a little inside and sank into my chair.
Even odds that this episode was written by a Brony...
I'm finally catching up on this season of SNW and the Kirk/Noonien-Singh episode hit all the right spots. I wasn't giving her nearly enough credit as an actress before, but she definitely proved me wrong in that episode.
I basically binged up to the current episode over the last few days. I must say this has been one of the better seasons of TV I've watched in a while.
I did feel like the first two episodes were basically "getting the band back together" but then it really felt like it found it's footing and took off. Loved the time travel episode. The crossover was truly excellent (if you like lower decks as well). The doctor episode was excellent. And since I love musicals obviously I really, really enjoyed the musical.
I think the musical was really really well done personally. Also I loved the "they all had to sing together and project unity" bit. Because many of the best musicals do follow that rule. And the BEST musicals generally feature it.
The one issue I had this season was that fething wringing sound episode with the high pitch whine. I found myself irrationally angry every time after the 2nd time because they'd made the dang point!
Was disappointed at first when they were down on the surface and it was just more baby not-xenomorphs.
It’s Scottie! Slowing getting the band together. Leftenant…
An actual adult Gorn! In a cool spacesuit! Finally! Why were they moving so slowly and sluggishly in space though? This ain’t underwater where you have all that resistance.
I really enjoyed that. Nice to have a solid villain in play, and as noted? One we the audience really aren’t all that familiar with, because they’ve not really been a focus in the past.
Scotty was pleasing
As for the Zero-G fight? I’m guessing the slow and deliberate was a limitation of SFX, in-keeping with what we the audience expect Zero-G to be like. But also, with whacking great holes in the area they’re fighting in? Deliberately slowed movements so you don’t inadvertently boost yourself out into open space, or leave your opponent an opportunity to use your momentum against you in the same way.
Hulksmash wrote: I think the musical was really really well done personally.
I recognize it was well done but I still don't enjoy musical episodes, even knowing the "rules"; it's just not to my taste. The exception being the Scrubs musical episode, but i imagine that being 24 minutes and the songs being short helped.
I think the thing is something like Scrubs constantly plays with the 4th wall.
Meanwhile Startrek generally doesn't touch it what so ever. So something like a musical can be jarring because its kind of saying "yes I'm a TV show" inside itself. It can kind of jolt you out of the mental space of enjoying the fantasy and into the "these are actors, this is a show would you like some popcorn etc.."
For me the only 4th Wall thing about the musical would be the Klingons.
Why some weird hip-hop thing, and not Klingon Opera?
Though I’ve also seen it called K-Pop. Do keep in mind that for me music basically ended at the start of the millennium, so I can’t pretend I know much about the modern scene.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I really enjoyed that. Nice to have a solid villain in play, and as noted? One we the audience really aren’t all that familiar with, because they’ve not really been a focus in the past.
Scotty was pleasing
As for the Zero-G fight? I’m guessing the slow and deliberate was a limitation of SFX, in-keeping with what we the audience expect Zero-G to be like. But also, with whacking great holes in the area they’re fighting in? Deliberately slowed movements so you don’t inadvertently boost yourself out into open space, or leave your opponent an opportunity to use your momentum against you in the same way.
The Gorn that Captain Kirk fought in the famous TOS episode "Arena" was also slow and ponderous, so maybe the slower-moving Gorn we see in the wreck is supposed to be more like that. Like, they're quick when they are young and have less body mass, but get slower when they get bigger.
Also, SNW has joined most of the other Treks in yet another way: the season finale cliffhanger. A staple of Trek ever since Riker said the line, "Mr. Worf, fire." at the end of TNG Season 3, "Best of Both Worlds, Part 1".
AduroT wrote: Wait that was the season finale? Already?
Yup, welcome to the age of streaming where 10 episodes is apparently the magic number. You're probably gonna be waiting at least 2 years to see how that episode wraps up with the strikes going on and all.
AduroT wrote: Wait that was the season finale? Already?
Yup, welcome to the age of streaming where 10 episodes is apparently the magic number. You're probably gonna be waiting at least 2 years to see how that episode wraps up with the strikes going on and all.
Umm... yeah, so, the musical episode. It was cute, at first, but eventually the entire episode became a massive example of why "Show, don't tell!" is so important. Every song belaboured the point so badly that within a few lines you got what the song was about and the rest was just waffling, wordplay and largely similar musical structure.
The episode we just had was nice, but, yeah, it's going to be 2 years 'til we get a resolution. But hey, at least we have STD in the meantime... yay.
Overall this was a season with too many gimmick episodes and not enough Star Trek.
ZergSmasher wrote: I was actually wondering for some reason if it was really the on-screen actors singing; if so, then some of them might have missed their calling.
Both Jess Bush and Christina Chong are singers:
Spoiler:
AduroT wrote: It’s Scottie! Slowing getting the band together. Leftenant…
It does feel like they're setting up a TOS reboot.
AduroT wrote: I really don’t care about the Nurse/Spock affair thing they keep pushing so hard, but I’d still say it’s more Trek than Soap Opera.
I don't agree with her about the Soap Opera thing, but she also hasn't seen the worst of the franchise yet, so she doesn't have the best barometer when it comes to judging the series.
I did enjoy the line from Pike about being happy he wasn't breaking out into song every ten minutes. Me too Pike, me too.
It was nice to finally see a full grown Gorn, and in a space suit no less. Fabricating a fully enclosed but flexible tail armor is probably a lot of fun.
There has always been elements of the crew dynamics in Star Trek so I think it being more soap opera is a bit much. I don't agree but I can see where it could come across that way to some. I would say you should have her watch ST and see what happens but I can't honestly recommend anyone watch ST.
It does feel like they're setting up a TOS reboot.
That is crazy talk. Large media companies would never reboot or renew old properties. Just put that idea out of your mind.
Ahtman wrote: I did enjoy the line from Pike about being happy he wasn't breaking out into song every ten minutes. Me too Pike, me too.
It was nice to finally see a full grown Gorn, and in a space suit no less. Fabricating a fully enclosed but flexible tail armor is probably a lot of fun.
There has always been elements of the crew dynamics in Star Trek so I think it being more soap opera is a bit much. I don't agree but I can see where it could come across that way to some. I would say you should have her watch ST: D and see what happens but I can't honestly recommend anyone watch ST: D.
It does feel like they're setting up a TOS reboot.
That is crazy talk. Large media companies would never reboot or renew old properties. Just put that idea out of your mind.
)
So you all owe me £5. Probably. I can’t evidence that. But it’s true.
