That's not what most people refer to when they refer to the roots of trek anymore than filming in Technicolor prints and the return of Jolly Rancher computer consoles. That tends to instead be the disingenuous argument put forth by fans of nutrek when they're feeling generous by not accusing critics of various isms and phobias.
Kroem wrote: Well I haven't seen the Mandelorian, but my impression is that it is a lower stakes, character focused drama?
That would be difficult on a starship with loads of crew I guess.
I more meant how Mando was seen by many in the SW community as saving the franchise and setting things right after how bad the new trilogy was.
Basically, what will be the ST show or movie that returns to the roots of the franchise.
I think trying to return to the roots of Star Trek is not ideal though, I want it to return to the 90's heyday not the hokey original series with an alien babe of the week XD
Different people have different heydays - my favs are OS and DS9.
Discovery had potential but quickly showed its colours as entirely about a single, truly awful character. Picard had some really good stuff, for me ruined by a really awful last epsiode.
The problem with returning to the roots is so far they've not actually done it since TNG. Voyager, Discovery, Enterprise - they are all trying to go back, but at the same time they forget that one of the big things of Original Series and The Next Generation was that it was an exploratory ship out alone in space doing little things. By and large the bulk of episodes in both series have zero impact on the world outside of the ship; or if they do have impact its not something we often see followed up.
DS9 took things a bit further with a huge war, but it spend time on it and the war ramped up very slowly and had big shifts and changes through the entire length.
The problem with a lot of the seasons since then is they keep trying to be epic. Threats that will wipe out all existence kinda things. Thing is the more wild they go with that the more silly they start to get. Even DS9 wasn't quite that bad, it was just a military threat to the sector. It was a bog standard war between races just on a galactic scale. It wasn't vast fleets meeting in 2 episodes and the fate of the universe hinging on that one encounter and one battle.
I think this is where the writers have lost the "plot" so to speak. They've pushed and pushed for bigger more epic stories and sweeping events because "epic sells" and in the process of so doing they've lost track of the small person in the story. The fact that the bulk of fondness for many of the early Treks were small story plots, characters developing and learning and changing; the individual small struggles of a single ship etc....
Roots grow along with the tree and, with the golden age of Berman trek now about 25 years old on average, I personally view/include it as what trek is or rather should be. Ymmv.
Kroem wrote: Well I haven't seen the Mandelorian, but my impression is that it is a lower stakes, character focused drama?
That would be difficult on a starship with loads of crew I guess.
I more meant how Mando was seen by many in the SW community as saving the franchise and setting things right after how bad the new trilogy was.
Basically, what will be the ST show or movie that returns to the roots of the franchise.
30+ years after the launch of the Enterprise D, the Enterprise F launches with a new crew and a new mission to explore the Gamma quadrant after the fall of the Dominion.
One ship, weeks from the nearest starbase, a whole new region to explore building on what we saw in DS9.
If TOS hadn’t had Kirk, Spock and McCoy bouncing off each other, I doubt it would be remembered as anything more than ropey SciFi with some interesting effects and terrible acting.
TNG was initially carried by Patrick Stewart. The rest of cast credit him with showing them how to do it properly. Many of the best episodes wouldn’t have worked without Stewart’s acting chops (swap out Picard for Kirk in Chain of Command....).
DS9? Nailed the ensemble cast thing. You had the Bajoran, Federation, Cardassian, Klingon, Ferengi and what not perspectives bouncing off each other. That let them explore more in-depth stories.
Voyager? Oh gods....just no.
Enterprise? But why?
Discovery - I liked the first two seasons. 3rd had moments of brilliance, only for Burnham to be Forgiven Again, and granted captaincy because reasons. She doesn’t really have a Spock, let alone a McCoy to bounce off. I don’t think anyone involved is a bad actor. I don’t think they necessarily lack chemistry. It just isn’t working, because any character beats belong to Burnham.
I'm somewhat sad that one of the stronger actors brought into Voyager was brought in solely to put her in a skin tight suit and to show off her chest. Which does indeed speak about some of the issues Voyager had. I enjoyed it overall, but a little like Picard they did spoil the ending by rushing it somewhat and going for the extreme. In Voyagers case it was "lets beat ALL the Borg everywhere and get home in only 2 episodes!"
Picard however works great because it focuses on getting back to the core, the characters and their interactions. The bulk of the story is the small scale things, not the big scale that really only comes in at the very end.
I'm eager for season two and its been the most fun I've had with Trek in a long while.
Enterprise started well, it started really well and then they jumped down the "temporal war" hole. Which again was a bid to try and make some extreme super threat that would threaten everything and ultimately have it mean nothing because its a temporal war.... Instead of focusing on lots of early Klingon politics; on the mystical powers of Vulcans; on the mystery of space and meeting new races. On fleshing out and deepening the lore on lots of background races that are around, but which often get little to no screentime or are only glanced at for a few moments.
TNG was initially carried by Patrick Stewart. The rest of cast credit him with showing them how to do it properly. Many of the best episodes wouldn’t have worked without Stewart’s acting chops (swap out Picard for Kirk in Chain of Command....).
What's interesting is that Stewart didn't even really want the job in the first place. From watching interviews he wanted to do "serious" acting and a sci-fi show wasn't really his kind of thing. And yet he wasn't going to let that get in the way of his acting so he filled the role and pulled everyone else along and in the end came to love the role and what it represented and also what influence his acting in the show had on other generations. He always wanted his acting to mean something and inspire people and I think he brings that with him no matter what he's acting, which pushes him up a huge level over some other actors who are skilled, but ultimately just getting their rent money. In the end he took what was to him a rent-money job and turned it into a multigenerational inspiration.
Honestly, as time has gone on I feel as though Picard has stuck around much better than Kirk. I don't say that as a comment on the quality of the actors or characters, so much as their influence in broader culture.
There are far more Picard memes than Kirk memes, and while I see much praise of Kirk I also feel like Picard has stuck in the imagination better than his predecessors or his successors. Much as I love Sisko, I think it's Picard that really set the standard for what being a Star Fleet captain was about.
So I guess what I'm saying is that Picard kind of won the Kirk/Picard war, just because Stewart is charismatic as all hell, carried his series, and has a lot more meme material XD
Kirk also had very little character development or change over time. Same for Spock and McCoy we actually see their character development in the movies not in the TV series itself. Even TNG had to warm up to doing character stuff.
Original Series was very much "alien of the week" with the bimonthly "alien chick".
Also I think TNG took itself a bit more seriously (big part was Stewarts acting) on all fronts whilst Kirk was at times serious, but also quite casual about it.
That said I think there's also a bit of a generational game going on. Lets not forget Original Series had a very multiracial acting group for its time. It pushed grounds that other TV series of its day were afraid too and whilst we can't easily appreciate that today (because the world has moved on) its not something I think we should forget. There might not be as many memes, but that's because all that cultural reference was pre-internet.
There are far more Picard memes than Kirk memes, and while I see much praise of Kirk I also feel like Picard has stuck in the imagination better than his predecessors or his successors. Much as I love Sisko, I think it's Picard that really set the standard for what being a Star Fleet captain was about.
So I guess what I'm saying is that Picard kind of won the Kirk/Picard war, just because Stewart is charismatic as all hell, carried his series, and has a lot more meme material XD
Plus I think the show was (other than in the first and possibly early second seasons) purposefully made to be more timeless with things like pop culture references. TOS had space hippies but we didn't see Space Grunge or Gangster Rappers in TNG. Regarding the memes, I think it's also pertinent to point out that the people who grew up with TNG+ trek were the same generation as the originators of meme culture likely overlapping significantly as cohorts and that may be part of the reason for that. If boomers who grew up with origina run TOS made memes, it was probably ascii art on dialup c64 bbs's.
Discovery - I liked the first two seasons. 3rd had moments of brilliance, only for Burnham to be Forgiven Again, and granted captaincy because reasons. She doesn’t really have a Spock, let alone a McCoy to bounce off. I don’t think anyone involved is a bad actor. I don’t think they necessarily lack chemistry. It just isn’t working, because any character beats belong to Burnham.
They did at least finally give the other crew members something to do right at the end of season 3, and the development of the Saru/Tilly relationship was nice... only for them to send Saru 'home'. I rather enjoyed Discovery despite its flaws (and my wife and I just made the whole Burnham-centricity of it a running joke to amuse ourselves), but the fact that we got to the end of season three and I still don't even know the names of most of the bridge crew is a little sad.
Overread wrote: Enterprise started well, it started really well ...
Did it, though? I only ever watched a couple of episodes, and it struck me as having the same problem everyone hates about Discovery - the Captain was the only real character given anything to do, and everyone else was just a cardboard cutout in the background.
LordofHats wrote: Honestly, as time has gone on I feel as though Picard has stuck around much better than Kirk. I don't say that as a comment on the quality of the actors or characters, so much as their influence in broader culture.
There are far more Picard memes than Kirk memes, and while I see much praise of Kirk I also feel like Picard has stuck in the imagination better than his predecessors or his successors. Much as I love Sisko, I think it's Picard that really set the standard for what being a Star Fleet captain was about.
So I guess what I'm saying is that Picard kind of won the Kirk/Picard war, just because Stewart is charismatic as all hell, carried his series, and has a lot more meme material XD
Part of that I think is just age. I've met an awful lot of Star Trek fans over the years who have either never watched or didn't like the original series, so Kirk is a non-entity to them. But also there's the fact that Kirk was a product of the era his show was born in, and his primary methods of dealing with a problem were to either punch it or sleep with it... which doesn't really stand up with today's audience. (Well, sci-fi audience, I guess. James Bond is still a thing...)
Funnily enough, I recall all the complaints from TOS fans when TNG started up, about how there was too much sitting down and talking their way through problems instead of just punching or sleeping with something... But over time, that 'try to find a common ground and just punch things as a last resort' approach came to be what Starfleet was all about, and so Picard became a much more fitting poster child than Kirk.
Kroem wrote: Well I haven't seen the Mandelorian, but my impression is that it is a lower stakes, character focused drama?
That would be difficult on a starship with loads of crew I guess.
I more meant how Mando was seen by many in the SW community as saving the franchise and setting things right after how bad the new trilogy was.
Basically, what will be the ST show or movie that returns to the roots of the franchise.
30+ years after the launch of the Enterprise D, the Enterprise F launches with a new crew and a new mission to explore the Gamma quadrant after the fall of the Dominion.
One ship, weeks from the nearest starbase, a whole new region to explore building on what we saw in DS9.
Done.
You can do anything really. For example, why not have a show in which the first four seasons follow cadets at the academy and season five shows their lives after being posted to various ships. Pick say four characters to focus on, three of them stick together on the "main ship" while a fourth takes some sort of ancillary role and makes random appearances. The Beta Quadrant is largely unknown to us, as far as lore goes so that would be a great place to start.
insaniak wrote: They did at least finally give the other crew members something to do right at the end of season 3, and the development of the Saru/Tilly relationship was nice... only for them to send Saru 'home'. I rather enjoyed Discovery despite its flaws (and my wife and I just made the whole Burnham-centricity of it a running joke to amuse ourselves), but the fact that we got to the end of season three and I still don't even know the names of most of the bridge crew is a little sad.
I enjoy Discovery quite a bit, but that final episode of Season 3 was the straw that broke the camel's back. Burnham just wins at everything, gets to do whatever she wants, and gets rewarded for it constantly. I cannot fathom why she is the captain of the ship all of a sudden.
Discovery's greatest flaw is that it's not about the crew of a starship* like every other Trek show. It's about one person doing everything and having everyone revolve around her. There are good characters in there, like Saru, the best thing to happen on Trek in decades, but they got lost in the whirlwind that is Michael Burnham.
And of course, then there's this:
insaniak wrote: ... I still don't even know the names of most of the bridge crew is a little sad.
... which is just shocking. Who'd've thought that, even 5 years ago, we'd have a Trek show where the bridge crew are mostly tertiary characters of whom we can't name even one**.
insaniak wrote: Part of that I think is just age. I've met an awful lot of Star Trek fans over the years who have either never watched or didn't like the original series, so Kirk is a non-entity to them.
I'm not a Star Trek fan, but I'm basically in the same boat for TOS. The Kirk I know is from the movies, not the show, which I've basically never watched.
Part of that I think is just age. I've met an awful lot of Star Trek fans over the years who have either never watched or didn't like the original series, so Kirk is a non-entity to them. But also there's the fact that Kirk was a product of the era his show was born in, and his primary methods of dealing with a problem were to either punch it or sleep with it... which doesn't really stand up with today's audience. (Well, sci-fi audience, I guess. James Bond is still a thing...)
Funnily enough, I recall all the complaints from TOS fans when TNG started up, about how there was too much sitting down and talking their way through problems instead of just punching or sleeping with something... But over time, that 'try to find a common ground and just punch things as a last resort' approach came to be what Starfleet was all about, and so Picard became a much more fitting poster child than Kirk.
I'm definitely in that boat, I like all the sitting down and talking.
Only in Star Trek would an episode intro about being 3 days into complex negotiations between the Chiripians and Zogzanians over logging rights on the moon of Ostrog be so exciting!
I find the fact that Starfleet's SOP in a crisis is to call an all-hands staff meeting and watch a power point presentation to be the most realistic part of the Star Trek franchise.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: I find the fact that Starfleet's SOP in a crisis is to call an all-hands staff meeting and watch a power point presentation to be the most realistic part of the Star Trek franchise.
insaniak wrote: Part of that I think is just age. I've met an awful lot of Star Trek fans over the years who have either never watched or didn't like the original series, so Kirk is a non-entity to them. But also there's the fact that Kirk was a product of the era his show was born in, and his primary methods of dealing with a problem were to either punch it or sleep with it... which doesn't really stand up with today's audience. (Well, sci-fi audience, I guess. James Bond is still a thing...)
I think if you went back and rewatched TOS you would find that Kirk does not behave the way you seem to think he does.
insaniak wrote: Part of that I think is just age. I've met an awful lot of Star Trek fans over the years who have either never watched or didn't like the original series, so Kirk is a non-entity to them. But also there's the fact that Kirk was a product of the era his show was born in, and his primary methods of dealing with a problem were to either punch it or sleep with it... which doesn't really stand up with today's audience. (Well, sci-fi audience, I guess. James Bond is still a thing...)
I think if you went back and rewatched TOS you would find that Kirk does not behave the way you seem to think he does.
I think Joystick is just being a bit hyperbolic. Kirk solves loads of things without punching or sleeping with people and delivered many of his own lectures and diplomatic negotiations. However he was always far more of a rough and tumble character than Picard. He would go for the ladies, he would get into brawls and fights. Heck he gets into a fist right with a gorn in the very first episode of the series.
Just like Picard doesn't solve everything with words, sometimes he uses a ship as a ram or charges in with phasers and such; Kirk doesn't solve everything with a fist or the bed, but he does do those things a lot. Enough that they are traits of his character on the screen.
Compel wrote: Yeah, Conan Doyle was FLOODED with fan letters demanding he retcon Sherlock Holmes' death. He absolutely *hated* it. He, however, also liked getting paid, so he gave in...
As for wider canon... I'm just going to gesture widely at, well.... All. Religion.
Im pretty sure during ancient greek times, there was a persone who wrote an entire tome trying to make sense of all the regional myths and legends and codify greek mythology
Part of that I think is just age. I've met an awful lot of Star Trek fans over the years who have either never watched or didn't like the original series, so Kirk is a non-entity to them. But also there's the fact that Kirk was a product of the era his show was born in, and his primary methods of dealing with a problem were to either punch it or sleep with it... which doesn't really stand up with today's audience. (Well, sci-fi audience, I guess. James Bond is still a thing...) .
Im soooooo attacked right now. Lol. I have never seen any episode of TOS, only a few season of TNG. Im more of a Voyager, DS9, Enterprise fan myself haha,
Compel wrote: Yeah, Conan Doyle was FLOODED with fan letters demanding he retcon Sherlock Holmes' death. He absolutely *hated* it. He, however, also liked getting paid, so he gave in...
As for wider canon... I'm just going to gesture widely at, well.... All. Religion.
Im pretty sure during ancient greek times, there was a persone who wrote an entire tome trying to make sense of all the regional myths and legends and codify greek mythology
Hesiod.
My favorite writer of 'Greek Canon' of course has to be Homer. He even spawned Fan Fic with that Virgil guy and a few others.
I'm going to assume that this new movie will be the Kelvin timeline, which I am 100% ok with btw. With Picard being a thing it won't be TNG themed, DS9 was rounded off so there's really no story there, Voyager is fine to have on while I'm painting some minis but there's nothing there for a movie, Enterprise is too hated (which is largely unfair imo) and like 70% of the TOS cast are kind of dead.
I like Burnham as a character, and the actress is amazing. So if the movie was upfront that “this is about Burnham and Burnham alone”? I’d probably watch it.
Certainly human adopted by Vulcan thing has greater narrative depth than Disco has bothered with.
I could go on and on and on, despite really liking most of Disco. But I’m on beer 7 so shall refrain!
You could probably do a whole film trilogy about 'the missing year' between Season 3 episode 1 and episode 2, that just stars Burnham, Grudge and Manchester Black.
It's going to be interesting to see a "Q" style episode and time travel spread out over multiple episodes like that.
I also generally like Q time-travel episodes when they've happened in the past because they tend to have a lasting lesson effect on the characters, but at the same time things mostly end as they began, so we don't see "Oh and now we are in a new continuity" type situation.
Region blocked for me. I saw some screen shots earlier though of a tri-nacelle ship with the third popping out apparently when needed like a cartoon fast and furious boost.
warboss wrote: Region blocked for me. I saw some screen shots earlier though of a tri-nacelle ship with the third popping out apparently when needed like a cartoon fast and furious boost.
didn't the future enterprise from next gen have that, or was that just to carry the increasingly sturdy Riker
although still of the mind they've been winging since ds9 ended
warboss wrote: Region blocked for me. I saw some screen shots earlier though of a tri-nacelle ship with the third popping out apparently when needed like a cartoon fast and furious boost.
didn't the future enterprise from next gen have that, or was that just to carry the increasingly sturdy Riker
Haha like the Riker comment.. Yes I think that's the one that turns up from the future in All Good Things isn't it?
warboss wrote: Region blocked for me. I saw some screen shots earlier though of a tri-nacelle ship with the third popping out apparently when needed like a cartoon fast and furious boost.
Sadly, that fits the MO of the Voyager-era Starship Design Bureau. Thinking mainly of the Prometheus, but even Voyager had Kung Fu nacelle action.
Still, it’s nice that they’re getting closer and closer to Red Letter Media’s Picard “pitch”.
warboss wrote: Region blocked for me. I saw some screen shots earlier though of a tri-nacelle ship with the third popping out apparently when needed like a cartoon fast and furious boost.
didn't the future enterprise from next gen have that, or was that just to carry the increasingly sturdy Riker
Haha like the Riker comment.. Yes I think that's the one that turns up from the future in All Good Things isn't it?
Yeah, the Galaxy X had the third nacelle (and spinal megasuperduper phaser pachow! dorsal mount) but I don't recall it having the ability to retract. It was figuratively and literally (in the case of the model, lol) just glued on. The closest comparison would be the mini-Me tiny nacelle on the Prometheus when it separates into three ships but that was just to maintain warp and not boost/increase speed.
warboss wrote: Region blocked for me. I saw some screen shots earlier though of a tri-nacelle ship with the third popping out apparently when needed like a cartoon fast and furious boost.
Sadly, that fits the MO of the Voyager-era Starship Design Bureau. Thinking mainly of the Prometheus, but even Voyager had Kung Fu nacelle action.
That's what I thought as well. With the Janeway AI (JanewAIy?), I'm guessing that was a nod to the variable position nacelles of the Voyager or maybe a further progression of it. It's a bit too fast and furious nitrous for me personally but I'll admit that the look is cool and it's on an animated show aimed for kids so I have no issue with it. Questionable stuff like fidget spinning instantaneous galaxy traversing mushroom engines and such should be tested in programs like this.
I liked this weeks Lower Decks, showing the crews from the different aliens. It was a nice touch, and still helped move along the season’s overarching storyline. I do like how the episodes are like 90% slice of life, but still fit in that 10% long storyline and world building.
Might sound odd, but the most fun I've had watching Trek recently has been the 1970's animated series.
It followed on nicely from TOS, the plots became a lot more highbrow and involved with a lot of stuff that could be animated but couldn't be done live-action at the time.
It also does a better job of worldbuilding the federation as some episodes deal with the enterprise escorting a grain supply ship or dealing with corrupt planetary governors, more of the internal politics of the federation gets laid out, a theme which TOS continued.
Even the episode where there's a planet full of amazon women subverts the trope very well by showing exactly how capable Captain Uhura would be.
Having the original cast voice acting kept the character continuity and they even develop the characters a bit.
LD has had quite a few callbacks to TAS over its episodes.
The doc, T'ana is of the same species as M'ress from TAS (Caitian).
There was an Edoan (three armed and legged alien helmsman from TAS) in S1.
The episode with the crew having to catalog the collection of a dead collector was filled to the brim with them - the giant skull was that of giant Spock clone from the TAS episode "The infinite vulcan".
I really wish I could enjoy Lower Decks, but I just loathe the animation style. Even the show’s thumbnail annoys me on a level which is completely irrational.
The first season was a bit rushed/rough feeling around the edges. Second season feels more like they've settled into a comfortable groove with the characters and what they are attempting to do.
There's a little bit less of that feeling of "we've got to machine-gun puns at at them"
Mr Morden wrote: Hmm Q - excellent, although the whole trial stuff is tiresome nonsense,
On the other hand, after the mess of the first season, Q was absolutely right to have humanity on trial, and can feel free to render judgement knowing the nu-Federation justified his belief that humans are indeed a backwards and savage race. Revisiting the Trial makes all sorts of sense.
Time Travel, not so much. Plot holes and post-hoc paradox-fixed justifications ahoy!
Mr Morden wrote: Hmm Q - excellent, although the whole trial stuff is tiresome nonsense,
On the other hand, after the mess of the first season, Q was absolutely right to have humanity on trial, and can feel free to render judgement knowing the nu-Federation justified his belief that humans are indeed a backwards and savage race. Revisiting the Trial makes all sorts of sense.
Compared to who? The trial was awful rubbish (IMO) - he is much better as a bored god....
AduroT wrote: I liked this weeks Lower Decks, showing the crews from the different aliens. It was a nice touch, and still helped move along the season’s overarching storyline. I do like how the episodes are like 90% slice of life, but still fit in that 10% long storyline and world building.
So I do watch lower decks despite it being entirely silly and really if it wasn't for the ST amusement factor it would be pretty trash, but when they cut to the Borg lower desks I couldn't help but laugh out loud uncontrollably
Oh! Last weeks episode was the season finale. I wouldn’t have expected that kind of cliffhanger to be the finale anymore. Looks like they’re already recording the third season though so yay.
On Lower Decks, and because I’m always open to challenging first impressions?
Can anyone offer a top three “this is proper Trek*” episodes of their choosing?
Don’t need to know why, as I’ll just sort of watch them. I can’t promise I’ll get past my immediate distaste for the art style, but I’ll give it a try all the same.
*no I am not going to define Proper Trek, because that seems counter productive.
It’s hard for me to personally define proper Star Trek, not to mention a generally poor memory to think back to specific examples, but I would definitely say this second season finale is right proper Trek. The problem would be skipping straight to that glosses over a lot of character growth and development and relationships. In general I think the whole series is a good Trek show, the characters just aren’t so hyper competent at their jobs like you get on previous series. It’s a lot like Orville in a sense, where they’re… less sterile? Plus if you’re a big Star Trek fan the show is packed to the gills with callbacks and Easter eggs. It was pointed out that the guest captain in this finale was an ensign who spilled hot chocolate on Picard in Next Gen season two.
Yeah that's my feeling too. Whilst its not a strong story based series, there is continuity and themes that run through it and some of the in-jokes and such will just seem very out of place or random if you skip episodes.
I wasn't the biggest fan of the first season, it was ok but felt rush/hurried and kinda like it didn't know what it was doing. The second season is much improved. Also whilst its clearly a "Spoof" series and thus has no impact on the "actual" ST continuity it kind of feels like the writers have more of a grasp of classic trek than many of the modern ones (they even poke some big jabs at that in one episode).
There's a horde of clips of this show hitting YouTube, and they have me curious because the show does seem much more Trek (paradoxically) than the current live-action series to me.
It almost looks like Backett Mariner is a direct jab at Michael Burnham's absurd hyper-competency/always right even when she's wrong/mary-suish. She even looks like Burnham a bit and has a similar personality, except she's in a gag series so the absurdities of the character feel funnier than groan-worthy. Is this a thing anyone writing Lower Deck's has commented on?
The writing in general is loose/casual fun and they most certainly do poke jabs at current Trek issues.
I've not seen any specific to Burnham but I've also not seen that Trek so chances are any of those references would go right over my head.
The first season was very much "pick a thing to gripe at all episode" whilst he second season is a bit more controlled and part of that is a bit more character in each of the characters and such. There's also one or two very long running slow burn storylines mixed in there.
That said they also poke fun at ALL of Trek. From odd things in Original series all the way through to the modern so its not a singular trope.
Checked out the first episode of the new Prodigy series. Definitely a for kids style show, as one would expect from it. They get more creative with the aliens since it’s all cgi, didn’t recognize a single species other than the most obvious one really except for the cat and I think the ship captain. It does not get feel at all Star Trek. Other than the fact it’s a Star Fleet ship they find there’s nothing to tie it in, just kind of random aliens and kids show. Course this is just the first episode to establish the story, so who knows how it develops.
If anyone's interested, they've done a U-turn on the international release of Disco S4.
While it won't be available on Netflix, they are making it available on other platforms, you'll need to see which for you country.
In the UK, for instance, they've gone for Pluto, which is a subscription free, sign up free, ad supported channel available as an app. It's actually playing live as I type this.
Broadly positive, although Pluto is a clunky thing to use, at least it supports casting and it looks like streams in at least HD.
Well....the first season was pretty good except for the last episode
The Second season started ok and then was total gak for most of the rest with a nice touch at the end.
Third Season - well it could be ok......and its still got Seven but on the major down side that stupid Raffy woman is still being dragged along.
Mrs. GG and I recently started watching Lower Decks. Despite not really being big into the comedy aspect we are enjoying it more than we expected. Being more of a Trekkie than Mrs. GG I seem to be getting more of the “inside gags” but we both like the more positive aspects of the plotlines and overall atmosphere. I find it very surprising that I do not find it as jarring as I felt season 1 of Picard and Discovery were. Perhaps the overly comedic aspect helps with that. Almost as if it is a tv show being watched by people serving in Starfleet. Wow. Now that is meta.
Picard is more like DS9 in terms of going dark with the setting whilst Lower Decks is more like Original series with some of the internal maturity that came after.
Sadly I still can’t get into Lower Decks. I’ve pretty much only heard good things about it, but that art style is offensive unto Nuggan - if I’m allowed to call my eyes Nuggan. Given that’s also very likely offensive unto Nuggan, probably not.
And I have tried a few times, it just irritates me on an entirely irrational level.
Just once. Just one time I'd like to see a trailer that doesn't play the BAAAWWWWM music as a building, or a planet, or a star is devoured/exploded/ripped apart.
Anything. Literally just show me a trailer where Bashir and Garak drink some tea and talk about the latest in Cardassian literature. Show me scenes of Troi counseling a young woman who just lost her partner on an away mission. Show me a scene of Riker cooking some kind of fething alien eggs for all his friends to try. Show me a scene of Seven of Nine learning how to sew from Neelix. Literally anything other than "OH NOES THE WHOLE GALAXY IS AT STAKE! LETS GO BLOW UP THE BAD MANS AND MAKE THE GALAXY SAFE AGAIN!!"
Overread wrote: I can't deny its a "Rick and Morty" art style that I don't like, but I can overlook it as I enjoy it for characters/story above artwork.
Yeah, I will echo that. Although I admit I am trying to see it with something more of a “Simpsons” mental filter as I think of it as an “in setting sitcom” Starfleet crew watch in their leisure time. I really, really do not like “Rick and Morty.”
AduroT wrote: Lower Deck is definitely the best of the recent Trek shows.
It really is. Can't believe their making a Picard season 3...
Wasn't that the plan from the beginning? I thought I remembered Patrick Stewart saying as much before the series premiere. I think that was part of the deal they needed to make in order to have him come on (along with giving him mostly free reign to change things).
AduroT wrote: Lower Deck is definitely the best of the recent Trek shows.
It really is. Can't believe their making a Picard season 3...
Wasn't that the plan from the beginning? I thought I remembered Patrick Stewart saying as much before the series premiere. I think that was part of the deal they needed to make in order to have him come on (along with giving him mostly free reign to change things).
It’s….alright. I guess. The bridge crew get more to do, which is nice. But there’s too much reliance on Vulcans and Romulans etc.
One of my favourite tropes regarding TNG and DS9 was the way the different cultures worked together, sometimes providing an insight humans lacked. True it wasn’t always well done (Worf trope, Gosh Isn’t It Lucky Data Is An Android), but at least it was there.
A really good example was Nog. Not only did we see serious character growth (cheeky wee scamp becomes a competent and valued crew member), but his talents well used, even if it was just Acute Hearing.
I’m not even that sure what purpose Adira and Gray serve overall.
Watching Lower Decks does remind me of watching the Orville. Both of which it now seems I underestimated before I started watching them. I still need to see season 3 of both.
Orville 3 from what little I've seen of clips and trailers seems to be a full on "hey no one is actually doing proper classic Trek - we can do it - lets do it."
It's gone from its Original Series 1 and 2 to TNG Series 3 which means series 5 and 6 will peak with DS9
Then it will try its second take at Original series Voyager with 7 and 8
LordofHats wrote: It was still on the calendar? Isn't that the sequel film they announced with the actors following up with 'I've never even heard of this'?
Yes. It's been on the calendar (this time around) since early 2021.
LordofHats wrote: It was still on the calendar? Isn't that the sequel film they announced with the actors following up with 'I've never even heard of this'?
AduroT wrote: I will warn you season three of Orville has a Very distinct change in tone for much of it. Story is still there, but Way less jokes.
I'm 3 episodes in and it's... OK. Still wildly inconsistent, can't quite figure out what it's doing. Spoilers ho!
Spoiler:
1 - Isaac finally faces consequences for almost exterminating the human race and kills himself. An interesting and touching discussion of suicide however is undercut when someone remembers Isaac is a robot and they can just reboot him. So uh, no consequences.
2 - Monster of the week as the Orville flies into uncharted space. Could these be the New Horizons they spoke of? Nope! After meeting the monster promptly turns around and flies home and promises to never go there again. Also has a pet peeve of mine where a military officer conducts diplomatic negotiations, which should be done by a civilian in any government except a military dictatorship. (This REALLY bugged me in Babylon 5 where Earth's Space UN rep was a navy captain).
3 - Mind #$%^ episode. Not a bad mind #$%^, but still just a mind #$%^.
Yeah I'll stay tuned for more but like I said it's OK. Around the level of ST Enterprise reruns.
AduroT wrote: I have to imagine we see more of episode two’s villain. They’re basically Orville’s version of the Borg, but organic instead of technological.
I'm sure we'll see them again. But I was getting excited with the idea of the Orville stranded in uncharted space besieged by alien monsters, unable to get back home since the Krill (sp?) had sealed their borders...
But no. They just went home and decided not to go back there ever again.
That episode of Lower Decks... 17 out of 10. It took 23 years of waiting, but I finally got to see the station after the Dominion War. That whole episode tugged at my heart strings so hard. Not gonna spoil anything, but any DS9 fan should watch that episode. That was magic.
Figured it was him, was even reminded of his existence by the first issue of the Lower Decks comic here a couple weeks ago as he was heavily referenced and relevant to the plot.
Grumpy Gnome wrote: I am confused by an openly armed Worf claiming to be a pacifist now.
He is a Klingon who worked in security, military and command for long enough that whilst he might take the path toward peace and pacification; he's not a fool. So he knows how important a blade/phaser/arming torpedoes will be. Interestingly it might just be a slight humous part seeing the other on the command deck telling him to ready and fire the weapons and having him refuse/counter when during the series it was normally the other way around - Worf declares they should raise shields and weapons and Picard countering.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Heh. Mica Burton is playing one of Geordi's kids.
Twitter wrote:"just confirmed we're going to see more members of the La Forge family in #StarTrekPicard Season 3! We'll meet Geordi's two daughters: Sidney, played by Ashlei Sharpe Chestnut, and Alandra, played by Burton's actual daughter, @MicaBurton ! #NYCC #StarTrekNYCC"
Star Trek on Paramount+ wrote:What threat could be cunning enough to draw Picard's crew back together? Meet Vadic, captain of the Shrike, played by Amanda Plummer in #StarTrekPicard Season 3.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Heh. Mica Burton is playing one of Geordi's kids.
Twitter wrote:"just confirmed we're going to see more members of the La Forge family in #StarTrekPicard Season 3! We'll meet Geordi's two daughters: Sidney, played by Ashlei Sharpe Chestnut, and Alandra, played by Burton's actual daughter, @MicaBurton ! #NYCC #StarTrekNYCC"
Another absolutely outstanding episode of Lower Decks. S3 has been fabulous. I squealed like a little girl when I got to see the Sovereign class again, it's just such a beautiful ship.
My only complaint is that we are already at episode 8 and the previous two seasons were 10 episodes long. So we are only 2 away from another long break :(
Maybe she's being held for the end of season or season 4. They've been pretty darn good at keeping track of what is going on where - heck last episode was all about Peanut Hamper.
Overread wrote: Maybe she's being held for the end of season or season 4. They've been pretty darn good at keeping track of what is going on where - heck last episode was all about Peanut Hamper.
Grain of salt as I can't find the original source (sorry for double post but *shrug*)
People have been saying elsewhere that the creators for the show have explained that they didn't expect T'lyn to be such a popular character or that her episode would become so acclaimed. By the time it aired they'd already written and started pre-production on Season 3. The plan is that she will appear again in Season 4.
Again, I can't find the original source for this but it's a thing I've seen oft-repeated as I snooped around other boards and reddit.
Mr Morden wrote: Well....the first season was pretty good except for the last episode
The Second season started ok and then was total gak for most of the rest with a nice touch at the end.
Third Season - well it could be ok......and its still got Seven but on the major down side that stupid Raffy woman is still being dragged along.
Completely agree with all of that.
By the looks of it, the third season assembles a few of the old cast, which is great. I spent the first two seasons wondering who this Raffy character was and why she was on the screen so much. I was waiting for the old crew to turn up and lend a hand. Their absence was very conspicuous. You've journeyed the depths of space for the last 20 years with the same bunch of friends, and years later when trouble rears its head again, you don't give them a call?
Maybe something to do with this 'repair the timeline' schtick that they felt the need to drag out again. Does the Star Trek franchise own the rights to this idea or what? They use it enough. It doesn't have the same dramatic weight when you've seen it done dozens of times. Travelling between dimensions in Star Trek now is like opening a door, and you wonder what's left to do.
My highest expectation for Picard as a series, would have been for an old-school battle of wits with the Romulans. That old-time enemy. A Romulan commander equal in experience, tenacity and guile, as Picard. Both at the ends of their careers, both desperate for something. Keep it simple. Focus on the writing, not the galaxy-churning events.
Overread wrote: Maybe she's being held for the end of season or season 4. They've been pretty darn good at keeping track of what is going on where - heck last episode was all about Peanut Hamper.
Grain of salt as I can't find the original source (sorry for double post but *shrug*)
People have been saying elsewhere that the creators for the show have explained that they didn't expect T'lyn to be such a popular character or that her episode would become so acclaimed. By the time it aired they'd already written and started pre-production on Season 3. The plan is that she will appear again in Season 4.
Again, I can't find the original source for this but it's a thing I've seen oft-repeated as I snooped around other boards and reddit.
It sounds logical.
If they've already got the green light and budget to make the next season they'll start without waiting for the current one to finish, so that can produce a lag-time in adjusting things. Plus there's a lot of cases where minor characters suddenly become popular. Heck the whole idea of Vorta being cloned was created so that they could bring back Weyoun after he proved so popular when he first appeared (and died).
Fun season finale to Lower Decks. We did get our Vulkan intro to the crew as ending set up for next season. A short post credit scene as well.
Now to watch Prodigy, which they FINALLY brought back to finish its First season. Man they’re doing that show dirty with its airing schedule.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And a good start back into Prodigy. I was expecting them to slow burn the Janeway hook from the mid season finale but nope they are bringing that right to the fore.
Great season finale for Lower Decks with amazing callbacks to past seasons. Loved the ending of the episode with all those ships showing up to save the day.
I've not seen it yet, but in general Picard doing it always kinda feels lazy because it kind of shifts gears suddenly from a very smallscale adventure into "suddenly huge military action". It's one thing I can fault the Picard series for is that their ending episodes do feel a bit rushed and tend to build up way more than I feel they should. I think if each season had a few more episodes to the end they'd be able to ramp up more convincingly or if they had a slightly faster start they might as well have the time with the episode number they have.
creeping-deth87 wrote: Another absolutely outstanding episode of Lower Decks. S3 has been fabulous. I squealed like a little girl when I got to see the Sovereign class again, it's just such a beautiful ship.
When will Paramount finally give us what the fans really want?!
Star Trek: 60 Minutes of Beautiful Ships Flying Back and Forth
ST60MBSFBF would dispense with all that boring talking and boring fleshings and unconvincing make up and interior sets to focus on what we really want to see.
Ok that was a good ending to Season 3 of Below Decks! Looking forward to Season 4!
Spoiler:
Honestly the whole ships at the end scene worked and it worked for the simplest of reasons. Sneaking a few in here and there through the series and introducing the crews and then having yet more appear during the ending and then simple act of showing those few and then giving a name to the rest.
It made it a cheesy moment, but at the same time it also made each one a "character" in the setting. As opposed to just a faceless fleet it was a fleet where you knew enough to know they were all individual.
AduroT wrote: I like that they had different paint jobs too, different colors. It wasn’t just all copy/paste.
True! That really did stand out in Picard series 1. Granted there was logic - a brand new custom fleet built for a specific purpose - but it was very different to standard Starfleet where most of the time we rarely see two of the same class of ship in one place, let alone a fleet.
LordofHats wrote: My one complaint is that I feel like the whole side plot with Mariner should have ended differently.
I can see that, at the same time it developed how I kind of felt it would. Though I'd have put money on her not rejoining until the start of the next season. Heck that might have been the original plan, however if they are now bringing the el....vulcan into the story it might be they didn't want to have the original 4 gain a 5th at the same time as one of the original 4 went on a "soul searching journey" and essentially changes off-screen between seasons. It would also kind of be a repeat of a storyline we'd had already.
In the end it did feel al ittle like just one more "out on her own" episode would have been good just to reaffirm the time passing and character development/changes. Still I'm content with it, I think it fits well considering that Below Decks is closer to original Trek series in that its not a huge drama like DS9/Picard.
I don’t know that I’d have wanted it to end differently, but I wish it had been longer. Give her a full episode between when she was kicked out and her inevitable return rather that out and back in the next.
I feel like it should have been a bigger moment than it was, especially in a season that had lots of character development and growing up for Mariner that ended in everyone accusing her of something she didn't do.
I am really surprised at how much I have enjoyed Lower Decks. It really is much more engaging than what I was expecting. Even the satirical comments, which could have come across bitter and sarcastic, seem somehow more positive, (ie “laughing with” rather than “laughing at”) than what came across in the first episode.
As for the Mariner plot, I agree. It felt a bit too abrupt. But on the bright side it lets us move on for next season.
Giving Lower Decks another try, jumping straight to Season 3.
As you might recall from earlier wibbling, I’m not a fan of the animation style, and the opening reminded me why. It’s cheap, and it’s pretty crude. Why bother animating faces when you can go for exaggerated arm waving no natural human would do outside of the woeful Drake and Josh.
But I shall endeavour, as the plots and stories might be quite good.
Best of luck. While I appreciate Lower Decks for paying homage to what came before, the 5ish episodes I've seen felt like they were written by sociopaths.
Turnip Jedi wrote: Stop doing the internet wrong Doc, you're supposed to not watch it, and then join the dogpile of choice from other people at didn't watch it !
Also Picard S2 likewise isn't grabbing me, worth sticking with ?
Season 2 goes downhill quickly....it has a few good bits but outweighed by the bad IMO
creeping-deth87 wrote: Another absolutely outstanding episode of Lower Decks. S3 has been fabulous. I squealed like a little girl when I got to see the Sovereign class again, it's just such a beautiful ship.
When will Paramount finally give us what the fans really want?!
Star Trek: 60 Minutes of Beautiful Ships Flying Back and Forth
ST60MBSFBF would dispense with all that boring talking and boring fleshings and unconvincing make up and interior sets to focus on what we really want to see.
Go to YouTube. Search “Star Trek Ships Only”. Enjoy.
I think that's one thing I really like about Below Decks. Once they got past the slightly "machine gun pun" first season and settled a bit, you could really tell that the writers know their Trek. There are loads of little bits sneaked in all over the place that just make you pause and remember bits from earlier shows.
I started Prodigy today and getting to a certain episode it feels a bit... dark.
The main lad does the Kobayashi Maru and gets Spock, Uhura, Odo, and Bev Crusher as his command crew. The show used archive audio for all but one and it feels very very weird. Like with Lower Decks, they have legacy characters whose actors are alive but for this, it just feels grim. I know there's the Spock inspiration bit but it still feels off.
I'm going through the latest season of Lower Decks now and really enjoying it. The thing about that show is it finds the perfect balance between poking fun at Trek and paying homage to it. That's a lot easier said than done.
Especially when they aren't afraid to bring in the Original Series stuff, which is honestly really hard to include considering how different it was to almost all the Trek that followed.
Overread wrote: Especially when they aren't afraid to bring in the Original Series stuff, which is honestly really hard to include considering how different it was to almost all the Trek that followed.
And the new stuff too. When Boehmler ends up on The Titan he has accidently moved onto a JJ Abrams/Discovery type ship. I joined Starfleet to explore new worlds and meet new civilizations! I don't constantly want to be in battles and firefights with explosions! Seems like fun at first but then it just becomes exhausting...
The Enterprise fly-by is the most epic shot in Star Trek ever! Its one of those moments in a sci-fi movie that you wish you could experience for real, along with getting a job running a power loader with Ripley as your manager.
AduroT wrote: I don’t think I want Ripley as my manager. A lot of people on her crews tend to die.
In fairness that's mostly because they don't listen to her until its too late!
If she'd had her way Alien 1 would have been fully contained!
Alien 2 they'd have nuked the site from orbit
Alien 3 ok in fairness this group listened pretty fast once the ball got rolling; they just were hampered by not having any real resources, expertise and at least one being totally unhinged.
Alien 4 - they actually listened to her for the most part and a decent number made it out alive.
Mrs. GG and I have been slowly working our way through all of Voyager, part way through Season 5 right now… it is surprising just how much better the writing has gotten. From the beginning of Season 4 it really has improved dramatically. Not perfect but pretty good. They must be on a skeleton crew with so many lost and very few replacements recruited. I think the show missed a trick there by not recruiting more “lower decks” Delta Quadrant personnel. And show some more promotions. Poor permanently Ensign Kim.
Yes, what they should have done is keep picking up a hodgepodge of Delta Quadrant randos and the crew kept becoming more and more eccentric and diverse. Despite the amount of casualties I don't think they ever bring up the attrition problem. It's like the writers forgot they're not in the Alpha Quadrant and being recrewed all the time.
I read on Memory Beta or somewhere that is you count all the different extras you see they actually exceed the original stated crew of 150.
Will check YouTube, as may simply be a regional issue.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Found it, looks good. But I’ve seen that supposed villain somewhere before.
Sorry for the rubbish picture, but it’s the best I could find of Perry. Plus the one I initially shared featured a…uh…Gentleman’s Periodical, which won’t do for Dakka.
Yeah can't see it either, but easy to find others on youtube. Looking action packed and I kind of hope it doesn't get off to as slow a start as the other two seasons. I don't mind slow starts and the first season needed its slow build to establish all the decades of changes between TNG and Picard.
I also think that if they can speed up the setup we might at last get a Picard that doesn't feel like they have to end it 1-2 episodes early and thus do a bit of a rush job of it. I'm happy to swap a slow start for a more modest paced finish (that does't mean no action or slow events just a slower escalation and a bit more focus on the after-effects of events)
I hated season 1 of Picard and still have not seen season 2. The trailers do not make me think I would like season 3… but I am prepared to be proven wrong. Shallow attempts at edgy action, dark lit bridges and far too many explosions… did Michael Bay take over as show runner?
The season finale cliff hanger of season 4 of Voyager and opening episode of season 5 was also something I did not like. A vengeful, irrational Janeway that acted in a very inappropriate manner for a Starfleet Captain. The following episode about the runaway three linked Borg drones was much better, much more a Star Trek I recognized.
AduroT wrote: I’ll watch it, but I’m in no way hype for it.
My feelings as well.
Anyway, got around to finishing Star Trek Prodigy. Season 1 of which was split in half and had a big break in between the two halves. I really did not like the first half at all. It was clear it was just for young kids. It will never really have any important storylines that will like.... almost destroy Starfleet or anything like that. Nothing wrong with that, I'm just not the target audience.
Boy, they changed things up in the second half. It got way darker and more serious and had a major plotline involving saving the galaxy that actually makes more sense than a lot of STD's storylines saving the galaxy all the time. Not sure who this show is for either. Of their two animated shows Prodigy ended being the more serious, less fun one but I think that's the one that's supposed to be light hearted fair for kids?
These days? Watership Down set a pretty heavy tone decades ago. Animals of Farthing Wood too if you want a regular serial release of animations.
That said I know what you mean and I think in part its because these shows start under the flag of being for kids even though the target audience might end up being adults who were fans of the original years back. It's also likely an easy thing to creep into without that intention as the creators might well be the same, adult fans who grew up with it; and thus taking it into more serious tones.
Part of it might just be that a lot of western producers/executives/suits/mangers tend to keep viewing cartoon as "for kids"
As a big fan of Robert Meyer Burnett, I tend to take what he says about Star Trek seriously.
He generally hates all new Star Trek, from the JJ films, to Discovery, and he even has disdain for Strange New Worlds. He did not like Picard season 1. He hated Picard season 2.
I think what season 3 is going to do that seasons 1 and 2 didn't is reunite a lot of the old bridge crew so that its not just Picard or Picard and one or two others.
H.B.M.C. wrote: As a big fan of Robert Meyer Burnett, I tend to take what he says about Star Trek seriously.
He generally hates all new Star Trek, from the JJ films, to Discovery, and he even has disdain for Strange New Worlds. He did not like Picard season 1. He hated Picard season 2.
He's seen season 3, and he says it's fantastic.
I assume it’s even better to watch in his new house.
H.B.M.C. wrote: As a big fan of Robert Meyer Burnett, I tend to take what he says about Star Trek seriously.
He generally hates all new Star Trek, from the JJ films, to Discovery, and he even has disdain for Strange New Worlds. He did not like Picard season 1. He hated Picard season 2.
He's seen season 3, and he says it's fantastic.
Any opinions from him on Lower Decks or Prodigy out of random curiosity?
Just Tony wrote: Finally got Paramount+ and have been enjoying Strange New Worlds. So far my only complaint has been what they chose as what started WW3.
That and Ortegas' haircut.
Fortunately, moments like that are few and far between unlike other series. Out of the all the live action series, this is the best in that it actually is just mostly nonoffensive and competent... basically a modern day Voyager. The flip side is that I don't think it had any particularly good stand out episodes either personally. Plotwise I didn't have any major gripes with it except for one major development with my favorite character that I won't spoil for you.
AduroT wrote: The only episode I hated was the Alien ripoff. The rest are generally pretty decent Trek.
You mean The Gorn? Ya, I was excited to have The Gorn come in as a villain but that was a really weird take on them. Don't see them as a this weird parasitic species. I think y\they should have just come up with a new alien if they wanted to do this. I know in the books they really fleshed out The Gorn in the Typhon Pact series but I haven't read them. If they are like that in those books then I could see where they got it from. If not, then I don't think it was the right take on The Gorn.
AduroT wrote: The only episode I hated was the Alien ripoff. The rest are generally pretty decent Trek.
You mean The Gorn? Ya, I was excited to have The Gorn come in as a villain but that was a really weird take on them. Don't see them as a this weird parasitic species. I think y\they should have just come up with a new alien if they wanted to do this. I know in the books they really fleshed out The Gorn in the Typhon Pact series but I haven't read them. If they are like that in those books then I could see where they got it from. If not, then I don't think it was the right take on The Gorn.
My biggest problem with that episode was what they did with my favorite character and the stupidity of the writers in not seeing the Planet Killer sized plot hole in their writing. The whole episode was the TV equivalent of a first time GM trying to run a horror RPG session with only one day's prep.
AduroT wrote: The only episode I hated was the Alien ripoff. The rest are generally pretty decent Trek.
You mean The Gorn? Ya, I was excited to have The Gorn come in as a villain but that was a really weird take on them. Don't see them as a this weird parasitic species. I think y\they should have just come up with a new alien if they wanted to do this. I know in the books they really fleshed out The Gorn in the Typhon Pact series but I haven't read them. If they are like that in those books then I could see where they got it from. If not, then I don't think it was the right take on The Gorn.
The Gorn were a disappointment. When they were introduced I was excited to see their version of them and updated effects for their appearance, but what we got was poor. Hyper advanced ships that are nigh unbeatable in combat but which communicate via maritime signal lights, and in person just a xenomorph lizard.
I have not been watching Strange New Worlds as we do not have Paramount+. I had been hearing such good things about SNW and I like Anson Mount so I felt like I was missing… this thread just got me to look at some Gorn related clips from SNW on YouTube. Wow! That is really, really disappointing. I quite liked the Gorn previously, both in TOS and Star Trek Online. Now? Um. No. Talk about blending Star Trek, Alien and Predator. Ugh. New Star Trek, disappointing me yet again.
Yes, overall Strange New Worlds has been good except for turning The Gorn into the Xenomorphs (not even the xenomorphs from Alien - the Xenomorphs from Prometheus and Alien: Covenant). Surprisingly, the most memorable episode what the Freaky Friday episode with Spock and his Fiancé. It was the kind of episode they don't make anymore. The Galaxy didn't even explode in it but it was a reminder of a simpler time in Trek where they would just do a lighter episode for character development. I guess that's considered high-risk now.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AduroT wrote: The Gorn were a disappointment. When they were introduced I was excited to see their version of them and updated effects for their appearance, but what we got was poor. Hyper advanced ships that are nigh unbeatable in combat but which communicate via maritime signal lights, and in person just a xenomorph lizard.
Yes, I don't know if anyone played this video game (apparently not many did) but after the JJ Abrams movie there was a poorly received video game that starred The Gorn as the villains. I thought the game was ok but that version of The Gorn was cool and would have made good movie or TV Villains.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: Yes, overall Strange New Worlds has been good except for turning The Gorn into the Xenomorphs (not even the xenomorphs from Alien - the Xenomorphs from Prometheus and Alien: Covenant). Surprisingly, the most memorable episode what the Freaky Friday episode with Spock and his Fiancé. It was the kind of episode they don't make anymore. The Galaxy didn't even explode in it but it was a reminder of a simpler time in Trek where they would just do a lighter episode for character development. I guess that's considered high-risk now.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AduroT wrote: The Gorn were a disappointment. When they were introduced I was excited to see their version of them and updated effects for their appearance, but what we got was poor. Hyper advanced ships that are nigh unbeatable in combat but which communicate via maritime signal lights, and in person just a xenomorph lizard.
Yes, I don't know if anyone played this video game (apparently not many did) but after the JJ Abrams movie there was a poorly received video game that starred The Gorn as the villains. I thought the game was ok but that version of The Gorn was cool and would have made good movie or TV Villains.
My daughter and I just replayed that game a few months ago. I quite unironically like it.
Dave Cullen's non-spoiler thoughts on the first six seasons. Along with RMB, he's also positive in his reception so far though he hasn't seen everything (thrice) like Robert.
I think I'm going to take his advice and wait. Season 3 will still be there after its finale and I can watch it during a free preview week if they still have them then.
Distinct Kirk and Bones vibe from Picard and Riker respectively. 7 seeming a bit Spock.
General vibes of Search for Spock. In a good way. Not ‘Member Berries as such. More wholesome. But I feel opinions will vary and, as ever, fair enough on that.
So far, the opener lets anyone who didn’t watch S1 and 2 jump straight on in.
I say so far. The entire episode is like that. Hopefully the season will follow.
Missed it on the first watch….
Spoiler:
The Red Lady was a statue of Captain Rachel Garrett, Captain of the ill fated Enterprise-C.
The same Enterprise-C that engaged Romulan attacking a Klingon Outpost/Colony. The crew’s bravery is why The Klingon Empire reconsidered their relationship with The Federation.
It’s also how Sela, daughter of Tasha Yarr came to be. Tasha Yard’s Half Romulan daughter.
Sela. Sela is the villain. With Romulans in tatters, she’s making a statement.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Further further thoughts (one day I’ll put them all in the same post at the same time. Probably.)
Spoiler:
On my earlier comment about Picard and Riker echoing elder Kirk and McCoy.
Kirk and McCoy returned to the Big Screen at a time when TNG itself had begun airing. And as a result, we got two kind of different Federations.
Kirk’s era was a bit more devil-may-care, gung ho. Go out there, face down the threat, win the day, get the girl.
Picard’s era was more political. As The Federation expanded, it gained serious muscle, but also wisdom to know you don’t have to fight your way out of a given situation. It was heavy on diplomacy and political niceties.
Now we’re seeing Picard dealing with the Federation changing once again. The stick in the mud Captain, who in turn echoes the Excelsior’s original Captain, is a bit of a knob. Not easily cowed. Maybe a bit too sure of himself. Definitely arrogant and seemingly unpleasant. I dare say he’d never have have made Captain in Kirk or Picard’s respective heydays.
I’m hoping they continue that feel, and indeed carry it off. Echoes I’m here for. Rehash, well I’ll still watch, but not as favourably.
Is the Neo-Constitution Titan-A we see a refit of Riker's original Luna-class ship, or a replacement that Riker also commanded (and was later refitted)?
If it was simply a refit, then it wouldn't have the 'A' designation (otherwise we would have first seen the Enterprise A at the beginning of Star Trek: TMP and not the end of Star Trek IV). The original U.S.S. Titan was a Luna-class starship (at least in the novels and was finally canonized in Lower Decks).
The Enterprise in TOS and the Enterprise in TMP and onwards were both a Constitution-class vessel, with the latter version just having a refit (or was built to the refit specs).
The USS Titan (NCC-80102-A) was a Constitution III-class vessel operated by Starfleet in the 24th and 25th centuries. It was the third Federation starship to bear the name Titan, and the second to bear the NCC-80102 registry.
Ghaz wrote: The Titan and Titan-A are different starships.
So if it's a different ship, why did Shaw have to delete Riker's jazz from the computer? Did Starfleet just migrate all the data across?
Looking at the ships it must be a different ship, but the dialogue had me confused...
Ghaz wrote: The Titan and Titan-A are different starships.
So if it's a different ship, why did Shaw have to delete Riker's jazz from the computer? Did Starfleet just migrate all the data across?
Looking at the ships it must be a different ship, but the dialogue had me confused...
Good afternoon gentlemen. At least I believe it’s afternoon in the Sol system.
I’m sorry, what? I get the point she’s trying to make with making references to their home and personal details, but that just doesn’t work on many levels. Like, which planet in the Sol system? One would assume Earth, but then which spot on Earth? I mean it’s always afternoon somewhere I guess.
Where I am sat sitting, I can see Greenwich. Which means I’m probably the Dakkanaut closest to where Britain, and therefore the world, as is tradition, first agreed time should be measured from.
And it is indeed afternoon. Just. 12:40pm as it happens. As is tradition.
AduroT wrote: Good afternoon gentlemen. At least I believe it’s afternoon in the Sol system.
I’m sorry, what? I get the point she’s trying to make with making references to their home and personal details, but that just doesn’t work on many levels. Like, which planet in the Sol system? One would assume Earth, but then which spot on Earth? I mean it’s always afternoon somewhere I guess.
I would wager that each world likely has a universal time as well as local time. That is one time system that acts as a single reference for ships/stations and those off-world wanting to contact and coordinate and deal with on-world setups. Her saying it along with those references to intelligence and references regarding the few key people might be her way of reinforcing her position. Of showing that she knows stuff not just about them but all the way to the Sol system, even if she's way out on the fringes. A soft way to tip her hand or bluff that she's well informed.
Also I really like the Shriek's captain. She sets a great tone and I think it will be really interesting to see where the story goes on the whole good vs bad vs neutral angle and as we get deeper into the story and setup.
I’m wondering if she’s actually the Captain. She’s definitely not the main bad guy, they have the save that for the twist. We also know of another character yet to appear from the trailers.
AduroT wrote: I’m wondering if she’s actually the Captain. She’s definitely not the main bad guy, they have the save that for the twist. We also know of another character yet to appear from the trailers.
She's certainly a powerful leader and very proud and comfortable with her ship*. To much so to be pretending. I think she is in command of that ship without question. As to if she's honest about her profession that remains to be seen. It could be taken in a few ways story wise.
I also get the feeling that her way of talking and acting in the chair and the way she relates to the Sol system (good afternoon) all relates to her being very space-side. Ergo she gives the impression of someone who has spent most of her life in space and not planet side much if at all. So she thinks of planets in terms of their universal time; she isn't just in her ship, she's in her home. This isn't a 5 year mission she's on, this is her life
*
Spoiler:
Interestingly I noticed that a lot of the weapons they read out are projectile style. I wonder if a quirk to beating her ship, or at least weakening it, is going to be laying false tracers in the nebula so that she wastes all/majority of her ammo shooting at beacons and loan shuttles pretending to be the starship. It would also explain why she showed off with the ship-throwing trick. A sign that her ship and crew are used to biding their time, using the threat of power to intimidate and using other resources to minimise the amount of ammunition they have to use.
It's a neat comparison to the Romulan warship that Picard faced in the Enterprise E. That warship was more based on energy weapons with multiple warp cores and thus more than capable of lasting a very long time in a drawn out battle. It's weakness was essentially being an inexperienced ship and crew in combat. They had a lot of power, but a swift rise to power that relied on intimidation and its super weapon and politics I think left them more open to random tactics of actual battle. Meanwhile the Shriek is munitions based, but has the up side of a very experienced crew
It’s definitely feeling better grounded in the setting and characters than the first two seasons. Both of which I enjoyed well enough.
Here, it is feeling like Kirk and Bones in the later movies. Kind of dinosaurs, relics from their age of Starfleet. Men of action cast a wee bit adrift in more political times, when you can’t just warp in, knob an alien and blast the bad guy.
But for Picard and Riker, it’s being a bit more isolated. Where the respect they earned has turned into “yes yes Grandpa, we know how it was in your day”.
I’m not quite sure what the right term is, but Starfleet is a bit harsher. Less risk adverse. Not necessarily corrupt, but creaking and perhaps less sure of itself Post Dominion War etc.
Having recently watched Insurrection and Nemesis, they both set this up, or at least flailed in that direction. So the overall arcs do mostly fit.
The biggest drawback for me is the fall of Romulus, and Picard’s “sadly not quite successful enough” evacuation attempt clearly being a turning point, but not one they’ve properly delved into. Maybe that would’ve made a more compelling second or first season.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As a complete aside, it’s never covered in the shows so far as I’m aware, but.
Borg Personal Shields. Did Starfleet ever attempt to replicate that tech?
I have to say I like how Riker and Picard haven't been able to just brow-beat the Titan's captain and he really does stand well against them with his counterarguments. The Titan is also an exploratory ship not one of the new warships. He's an explorer with an exploratory crew not a warship with a battle ready crew - though the security staff seem much better armed (carrying rifles not just phasers).
So yep I think we are seeing some aftershocks of the Dominion War, as well as the Robot uprising and other major events that have given the Federation of this generation pause for thought and a bit of a shift.
If anything Riker feels a bit subdued in this one. Clearly between season 1 and 3 something has shattered his confidence and position in Starfleet, himself and his family.
Picard it makes sense, all through each season he's been battling his 15-20 years out of starfleet and getting older and it all moving on. Riker on the other hand should be much more on the ball and yet he's not. Partly it seems to have slipped back to being Number One to Picard (which is understandable, it was a relationship they had for a very long time).
Also interesting point - this is the first time the series has properly delved into aliens and races and factions outside of the Federation. Season 1 had those robots, but they were so far removed it was mostly revolving around those within the Federation; Season 2 was fully within; Season 3 is the first time we are properly back out on the fringes again. Interesting to note that its also the first season to get the original score appearing once more.
Ghaz wrote: The Titan and Titan-A are different starships.
So if it's a different ship, why did Shaw have to delete Riker's jazz from the computer? Did Starfleet just migrate all the data across?
Looking at the ships it must be a different ship, but the dialogue had me confused...
I do like the chap that explained how the Federation were the bad guys in the dominion war. I think it is somewhere on reddit, can't access that on this computer.
To be fair for a race who are super isolationist and afraid of solids, who form the majority of other races in the galaxy; the idea of the Federation could be terrifying.
The Founders are very happy when there's strife between other races because that means they are focused on fighting each other and leaving the Founders alone. They were also the dominant power in their sector of space.
Then you have the Federation - a huge unity of solid races with the prime focus on expansion of their boarders. Yes the Federation does so by peaceful means rather than military conquest, but they are very good at it. Even if they can't bring you into the Federation they will often work toward lasting peaceful boundaries and boarders and neutral zones and such. And now this huge unity of peace is pushing into a new sector of space and would likely have a very good chance of displacing the Founders as the dominant power; and shutting down their ability to bully/threaten/expand their own protective boundaries.
A massive unity of solids who act under one banner. For The Founders, who have convinced themselves that solids are evil and out to get them, this is pure horror. It's no wonder they decided to lash out and invade. The Founders means toward their own protection is conquest, control and division. They couldn't bully the Federation and they couldn't expect it to fall to in-fighting with other races in the home sector. Invasion, increasing their assets and dominance with direct force is the best protection. Of course the Founders didn't just want the wormhole; they wanted a big chunk of the sector so that the Federation and its allies would be zero threat to the Founders.
Certainly wasn't expecting that species to return.
Just Tony wrote: https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/star-trek-discovery-is-coming-to-an-end/ar-AA189viE?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=228d69cd4aef4ad587da5908f9d3f491&ei=32
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Much as I enjoyed Picard S1 and S2? I am wishing they’d kicked off with S3’s pace and quality.
It actually feels like Star Trek.
I agree and disagree.
Personally I think the general acceptance of the series would have been stronger from the onset if they had started with the familiar with Picard.
That said I enjoyed seasons 1 and 2 in terms of establishing a new view of the Federation and a few new characters and also a new take on Picard. A man who is many years removed from his prime as a captain and admiral. In many ways I feel like the strengths of season 3 that we are going to love are in part going to be built on those foundations that seasons 1 and 2 drove home hard. If anything my greatest disappointment with seasons 1 and 2 is the same - rather sudden endings that feel like they wanted a few more episodes to flesh out events and perhaps reign some aspects in (eg the size of the Romulan and Federation fleets in season 1 in their face-off - considering that the fleets were see there are height of the Dominion War level fleets which took a lot of time to build up too on both sides. Both in terms of building the ships, but also logistics and moving that many ships into organised fleets. )
Riker has never been my favorite character but so far he has been my favorite part of this season.
Just a guess but...
Spoiler:
At the end of the episode when Riker tells Picard to get off the bridge and that he had killed everyone on the ship it was just a show. They had just learned there was a saboteur on board and this is sort of an "if we go by the book hours will seem like days" moment.
Ahtman wrote: Riker has never been my favorite character but so far he has been my favorite part of this season.
Just a guess but...
Spoiler:
At the end of the episode when Riker tells Picard to get off the bridge and that he had killed everyone on the ship it was just a show. They had just learned there was a saboteur on board and this is sort of an "if we go by the book hours will seem like days" moment.
Spoiler:
That's a good call and I'd be 50/50 on that. I think a big thing is that the power dynamic between them has shifted. Riker is in command and Picard, whilst technically outranking, is still many years removed. I was actually surprised at how quickly he fired the torpedo.
Picard, whilst often shifting for diplomacy, was always a bit more gun-heavy when push came to shove and its part of his character that the latter films and series have pushed on more so. The difference here is that he's out of sync with the power of the ship, the crew and the situation. Years without command, a crew he's green too and such means that his methods have caused a failure. It doesn't mean Rikers approach would have worked either, but Picard made the call and it backfired.
So it could be them pulling a ruse or it could really be them having a huge disagreement of approach to command and attitude
Why did the changling have a bucket? That was a uniquely Odo thing, that even he stopped using we time went on. Heck, it even looked like his bucket.
Also the new changling goo (man they loved that word) form’s updated effects are weird. Instead of the classic glowing slime it’s a weird kind of melted flesh appearance. Far more disconcerting.
It might be separation anxiety from the Great Link causing them to lean toward things like a bucket or container as some kind of comfort or ability to relax more fully when in liquid form. Remember Odo suffered from that and he was only part of the Great Link for very short periods of time; many of these changlings have likely been part of the Great Link for vast amounts of time and even when they left it would likely have been only for short moments not extended periods.
I did wonder if the last one we saw was spending too long in solid form and that was tainting the appearance. Though they aren't pushing as hard as Odo at times, then you could see his body starting to peel and flake
Yeah, they said the first one that was being interrogated had been solid too long, and was causing their withdrawal like symptoms. I think the only time we saw Odo go flakey croissant was when they used the device that outright prevented him from going liquid.
Odo using the bucket was because as a lab sample he was always kept in a container and raised that way so it was what he was used to and thought to be polite, keeping himself contained when he lived in his office. It was later when he met the other changling from the Great Link that they told him nah man, just goo all over the floor, it’s way more relaxing. Then he got his own room and and decorations and did precisely that and used his bucket as a flower pot.
I’m guessing the bucket was just a sensible hiding spot for the times nobody knew a Changeling was aboard and it had to regenerate.
Spoiler:
But another very solid episode. Brings the opening three to a story in their own right, whilst feeding in more mystery (why do the Changelings want Jack?)
It’s got a totally different, independent power supply! They couldn't use it if their lives depended on it! Far better to be surrounded by pretty decor while you suffocate.
To be fair I can accept a starship having subsystems that have their own dedicated power system that isn't compatible with other subsystems.
Heck this mirrors reality
Many electronic gadgets we use have dedicated power systems (batteries/PSUs) which are not designed to be adaptable to other machines. Even if you can do basic fixing of the core machine; its a whole other skill set to transfer the power.
Now you can argue that a spaceship should probably be designed with more redundancies so that the emergency holodeck power can be used for life support; However considering how we are seeing more and more use of hollo doctors and EMTs and such in the setting it might not be out of the question that there's a design choice to keep the holo system alive and functional in order to preserve those systems and not allow them to be used by other systems .
Heck it could even just be that the holo system is like an upgrade/addon pack for the ship with a dedicated self-contained system so that it can just be slapped into any ship easily
For a long time I feel like the concept of holodecks and holotech is in a really strange place in ST. Because in theory you can just holo up anything. Picard even shoots Borg in one film with the safety turned off. Why not just holo the entire ship as a self defence system; why not all holo crew etc.....
I feel like its kind of a bit that the writers know they can use, but don't want to lean too far into it because they know it would basically invalidate the whole show Though the in-world argument is likely similar to issues with androids in that people don't trust it as much etc....
It’s also a constant power drain. So a semi-permanent Holo-Office, where it’s just desks and chairs isn’t great.
But. Put holoemitters in your corridors. Nothing fancy. Just enough to project barriers. As you and yours defend your position, you can turn them on to provide cover in an otherwise empty space. And if you need to fall back? Just…turn them off, denying your opponent the same.
And if things are going really Pete Tong, generate walls alongside the usual force fields, so not only can your opponent not follow, but won’t be able to see where you went.
Am…..am I too naughty for Starfleet?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Not the whole ship though, countermeasures can be invented to disrupt and nobody wants that. But build it into your defence options, and you’re laughing.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: It’s also a constant power drain. So a semi-permanent Holo-Office, where it’s just desks and chairs isn’t great.
But. Put holoemitters in your corridors. Nothing fancy. Just enough to project barriers. As you and yours defend your position, you can turn them on to provide cover in an otherwise empty space. And if you need to fall back? Just…turn them off, denying your opponent the same.
And if things are going really Pete Tong, generate walls alongside the usual force fields, so not only can your opponent not follow, but won’t be able to see where you went.
Am…..am I too naughty for Starfleet?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Not the whole ship though, countermeasures can be invented to disrupt and nobody wants that. But build it into your defence options, and you’re laughing.
Thinking about the tech, boarding actions should be an absolute nightmare.
I mean your little Type 2 phasers are powerful enough to vaporise just about anything, have those things dotted down every corridor and everyone that you don't like just goes away.
Flooding corridors with tetryon particles (or whatever), to take out boarding parties shouldn't be some last ditch, genius plan by your sole surviving character; it should be standard design specs on every starship.
Those holo barricades in the hallways? Don’t make them disappear right away when you flee. Leave some for the enemy to take cover behind. Then have them suddenly vanish and reappear behind the enemy leaving them with no cover and nowhere to flee.
I forget the details, but we know holodecks can be quite large as there was the episode of Voyager where the not-Predators captured the ship and crew and were converting most of the interior into holodeck to use for hunting games.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: It’s also a constant power drain. So a semi-permanent Holo-Office, where it’s just desks and chairs isn’t great.
But. Put holoemitters in your corridors. Nothing fancy. Just enough to project barriers. As you and yours defend your position, you can turn them on to provide cover in an otherwise empty space. And if you need to fall back? Just…turn them off, denying your opponent the same.
And if things are going really Pete Tong, generate walls alongside the usual force fields, so not only can your opponent not follow, but won’t be able to see where you went.
Am…..am I too naughty for Starfleet?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Not the whole ship though, countermeasures can be invented to disrupt and nobody wants that. But build
it into your defence options, and you’re laughing.
Thinking about the tech, boarding actions should be an absolute nightmare.
I mean your little Type 2 phasers are powerful enough to vaporise just about anything, have those things dotted down every corridor and everyone that you don't like just goes away.
Flooding corridors with tetryon particles (or whatever), to take out boarding parties shouldn't be some last ditch, genius plan by your sole surviving character; it should be standard design specs on every starship.
If they’re beaming over, your shields are down. Trap with forcefields, dust with Exotic Particles. Use those Exotic Particles to get your own lock on, beam the buggers off.
Overread wrote: For a long time I feel like the concept of holodecks and holotech is in a really strange place in ST. Because in theory you can just holo up anything. Picard even shoots Borg in one film with the safety turned off. Why not just holo the entire ship as a self defence system; why not all holo crew etc.....
For the same reason you don't have an all-robot crew or just a fully automated starship, machines are worse than living beings. Heck, Lower Decks even had the finale built around that concept where a trio of rogue AI ships that an admiral wanted to replace the lower echelon vessels with. One got a virus (sort of) and then all three tried to kill a starbase full of people.
The whole idea of AI being in Starfleet was one of Data's storylines throughout TNG as well.
What's also important to remember is that Starfleet isn't like a modern "navy". They don't have to worry about a lack of manpower or a spending budget because the Federation is hundreds of worlds strong and doesn't use money. Stuff just gets built and people get jobs or don't. People don't sign up for Starfleet because they need to pay for higher education or come from a background where it's their only option to get away from home, they can just do those things anyway.
Now you can argue that a spaceship should probably be designed with more redundancies so that the emergency holodeck power can be used for life support; However considering how we are seeing more and more use of hollo doctors and EMTs and such in the setting it might not be out of the question that there's a design choice to keep the holo system alive and functional in order to preserve those systems and not allow them to be used by other systems .
Yeah, this feels like a deliberate evolution following from Voyager's experiences, making sure that the Holodeck remains operational regardless of what else is going on.
As for 'Why not just make the whole ship a holodeck?' - did you people not see how often something went horribly wrong with the holodeck in previous shows? The Federation would have been taken over by 18th century literary characters before the Borg even got a look in.
You also probably don't want your entire ship to vanish when the power gets fethed. It's one of those 'sounds cool' applications of technology that in actuality makes basically no sense.
Oh I’m not advocating for entirely Holoships, for just those reasons.
But to have a literal Holodeck (so subdivided, otherwise empty rooms) so you can readily adapt to mission demands, without needing to carry desks, beds, labs whatever does seem to make sense to me. If memory serves, the Bridge Stations, at least on the Enterprise-D were multifunctional. Whilst yes there was a set layout in general use, tactical, science, navigation etc could be done from any. So that level of general backup and multiple redundancy appeals to The Federation.
As do Holoemitters in the halls in case you need to defend against boarders. Not just the previously mentioned barricades, but also projecting general obstacles on the floor. Stuff to catch feet and slow down general progress.
I've be rewatching TNG cause I do that and I'm at Jounrey's End in season seven.
And wow is this episode so much worse than I remember it being.
Beginning rant.
Okay, so people familiar with Star Trek probably know the series has a contentious history with depicting Native Americans. Yeah it's not great. Well-intentioned and probably progressive somewhat by the standards of when the episode was made, but stereotypes and hackneyed attempts at being culturally respectful don't work. Pretty eye-rolling now. The aesop it's aiming for also just doesn't work. Is it believably uncomfortable for Picard to be ordered to forcibly remove some native American colonists? Yes. Yes that's fair.
But god they've barely been there for a generation. The Cardassians had the planet claimed even before humans colonized it (and what I guess 'bad guys' just don't have the same rights as 'good guys'). The icing on this bad premise is that the resolution reduces much of the episode into a very sentimental idiot plot.
How was 'just leave them there to live with the consequences if that's what they really want' not an option that was originally on the table? Honstly had this been an option at the start it probably would have made for a better episode. An episode about the Federation's desire to do good and protect people, but you ultimately can't protect them from themselves. If they really want to stay who is Picard to remove them 'for their own good'? Focusing on that instead of the really groan-worthy 'remember the Trail of Tears? I member' plot the episode has would have made a much better episode. One that got the moral point and the aesop across without feeling so utterly self-serving.
The history of franchises makes this aesop even worse because by DS9 we know that not only do the actions of Picard here not even remotely prevent violence, but all these people basically die anyway. The Maquis become a terrorist organization. Tens of thousands die. If there's an actual aesop here, it's that reality doesn't change according to what we find comfortable and just because history and memory makes us uncomfortable doesn't mean we should let past sins dictate the present or the future.
Or else you end up feeling good in the moment, but blowing your brain out later. That's maybe a bit unfair to this episode though. It's kind of neat how this one really bad Star Trek episode basically created big parts of DS9 and Voyager without intending too. Clearly the writers of those later plots also ignored big parts of this episode though and I don't blame them. It's just a bad episode.
And then there's Weasley's story, where he is a rude little piece of spoiled gak, who basically does a complete 180 on 7 seasons worth of character development. With time, his depiction in this episode is even worse because he comes off like that spoiled college brat who discovered other cultures exist and goes way overboard on it. And dear god is he so punchable for it. Kid has one vision quest and suddenly decides he needs to change everything about his life cause daddy said it was okay. A more cynical person might consider the Taveler an extremely nefarious manipulator who takes complete advantage of Weasly in a time of personal crisis... No wonder they were villains in STO recently.
It compounds with the well-intentioned but still badly stereotypical depiction of native cultures too.
I'm usually in the 'people are too hard on Weasly camp' but on this episode, I'll agree. Weasly Crusher is a spoiled infant whining that life is hard.
It's a good thing no one talks about this episode. It's easily one TNG's worst.
And now, as we expected would be the case, we have established that the entire fate of all Starfleet, the Federation, and likely the whole quadrant rests in the hands of Picard and their scrappy gang.
Also that’s… an interesting new design choice for the USS Intrepid.
AduroT wrote: It’s got a totally different, independent power supply! They couldn't use it if their lives depended on it! Far better to be surrounded by pretty decor while you suffocate.
Ya'll joking like this is new lore. The holodeck having its own power grid (complete with its own dedicated reactor!) that cannot possibly be rerouted to other ship subsystems comes from Voyager (season 1, episode 3 according to the wiki) which was a vital piece of lore to introduce as they needed to be able to continue having holodeck run-amuck episodes despite ostensibly having a limited supply of torpedoes, replicator rations, shuttles, and so on.
To be fair one big failing of Voyager was the sense of limited supplies. About the only part that they really pushed that on was the need for cooking and even then they could have gone a lot further - in the end it feels like they more just cook fresh produce to give Neelix a job.
Otherwise Voyager gets into regular scraps and yet is all cleaned up and running smooth by the next episode. We never really get a sense of hodge-podge repairs or limited resources or of them having to heavily curtail activities to sustain themselves episode to episode. We get those things during an episode but they are often resolved by the end.
Voyager was only stranded and needed to manage its resources two or three times a season when it was needed for the plot to work. At all other times the writer's room ignored the issue.
Yeah I get the feeling that they kind of didn't want to rebuild or evolve sets and the ship. It might also have been a filming issue since we always assume things are filmed "in order" but many times they can be filmed out of order and then what we finally get is very different.
It's one reason many shows often don't do big sweeping changes except in the first and last episodes (and sometimes a mid-season few) because those are set in stone positions and don't change. So they can adapt the set or change things up or even blow something up because it won't be shown out of order (unless your executive hates you and you get Fireflied)
Hm. Yeah, I'm kinda zoning out now. That was just an episode of "HEY REMEMBER ALL THE OTHER STAR TREKS?????" and I find nostalgia bait like that immensely insufferable.
There were bits that I did like but damn that was a proper nostalgia baseball bat to the skull.
I think the only part that felt odd is Voyager being there. I know its a good many years, but that's a starship and at the end of its season it was teched out with future tech. If anything it should have been in Daystrum not in the museum if it was stored and honestly it should still have been within service and active use.
Defiant makes sense, that was bashed and smashed around and likely was retired. Wasn't the last time we saw it in First Contact where it was torn apart during the opening battle.
The other odd thing is who keeps their display ships 100% active with a cloaking device. And of all the ships on display why the Bird of Prey and not the Defiant's.
If anything the Bird of Prey's should have been returned to the Klingons considering how super secret the devices are kept in the general run of things (seriously considering how often Starfleet encounters, interacts with and fights against them you'd think they'd have developed their own by now).
Data reappearing as he did felt a little forced, but its in keeping with ST styles and honestly it does work. The idea of Section 31 though is strange, Warf keeps dropping them like we'd drop the FBI or such when in the DS9 series Section 31 was not only ultra secret, but also generally proven to not even really exist in the way that many thought. The idea of them running Starfleet's main research station is curious when in the past they were more headspace based and such.
I wonder if its one of those things where the original lore says X and then its slowly twisted and changed until its hit Y without the writers realising. Or with a lot of subtle changes that makes the viewer go "wait wasn't that X not Y" without connecting the dots.
Still an enjoyable episode; slower in some ways than the others, but it felt like a stage setter for the next arc. We've almost got most of the old crew together. Very interesting that we've not got a single DS9 character thus far and my googling suggests we aren't getting O'Brian making an appearance. Still I think with all the Changling elements we should get someone from DS9 (who isn't Worf)
Also I'm left wondering why they stole Picard's body. Did the Changlings watch season 2 and think that they can clone him and then have him give a speech and turn the Federation against itself or something in epic war?
I was surprised at the end when the interrogator shot the other two guards then started to change and it Wasn’t Odo. You kind of have to expect him to make an appearance, right?
AduroT wrote: I was surprised at the end when the interrogator shot the other two guards then started to change and it Wasn’t Odo. You kind of have to expect him to make an appearance, right?
I'm so glad I wasn't the only person who thought that!
Then again of all the characters he's one we might not see as René Auberjonois passed on in 1999.
Also she was changing with the new effect and I wonder if Changlings are now of two breeds, one who have the more liquid state who don't create the correct internal organs and this new more fleshy kind that do create proper internal organs.
Spoiler:
Also was I the only person who also thought that what was stolen was a Changling, not Picard. I'd thought it could be Odo in a strange story twist or that it was the female Changling who was imprisoned at the end of the Dominion War)
Ah, didn’t know Odo’s actor had died. I’m bummed we don’t get to hear their contrived reason why another character who doesn’t age looks older, like we’ve had with Guinan, Q, and now Data.
Ack you're right, I just grabbed the date off the google page and that was the end date for him acting in DS9 not him passing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AduroT wrote: Ah, didn’t know Odo’s actor had died. I’m bummed we don’t get to hear their contrived reason why another character who doesn’t age looks older, like we’ve had with Guinan, Q, and now Data.
Considering his relationship with Kira during DS9 I could see that if he'd returned from the Great Link and perhaps resumed their relationship, he might well have used what he'd learned from other Changlings to "age" like her so that he'd join her in old age, even if he'd long out-live her and could just age down visually if he wanted.
Ahtman wrote: I also thought it was going to be Odo until I remembered René Auberjonois had passed away then I was just sad.
It seems like there are so many of us that nearly fell for that - It must have been intentional, so well played!
I thought for a minute that they were going to Kirk that BoP, which would have been beautiful until I realised that it would have involved ditching the super awesome captain.
Ok, I'm caught up now and ya, I can't decide if I like this season or not. It is fun to see the gang back together but the problem that this show always had has no spread to everyone now and that is mainly why has everyone's life sucked the past ~20 years? Like, since when is life so hard in the federation? Once again, if you are watching this show you probably liked most of these people and its just sad to see that all their loves mostly sucked this whole time. The one exception is probably Geordie. He managed to not be dragged though the hell of dark trek. Seems like things worked out for him at least...
Data reappearing as he did felt a little forced, but its in keeping with ST styles and honestly it does work. The idea of Section 31 though is strange, Warf keeps dropping them like we'd drop the FBI or such when in the DS9 series Section 31 was not only ultra secret, but also generally proven to not even really exist in the way that many thought. The idea of them running Starfleet's main research station is curious when in the past they were more headspace based and such.
I wonder if its one of those things where the original lore says X and then its slowly twisted and changed until its hit Y without the writers realising. Or with a lot of subtle changes that makes the viewer go "wait wasn't that X not Y" without connecting the dots.
Discovery ruined Section 31 to a cartoonish level. What DS9 establishes is that yeah, Section 31 kind of isn't even a real organization. It a cabal of people taking a section (the 31st one) of Star Fleet charter out of context to due extrajudicial things they want to do. It's a conspiracy of people who think the ends justify the means. I like that take, it's kind of smart, quite frankly.
Of course, it was too smart for Discovery and suddenly section 31 is an actual branch of Star Fleet that's completely out in the open with their own uniforms and shockingly big fleet. Also, everyone is automatically subservient to them. They are at the apex of The Federation somehow. Like wow, when did that happen? Apparently this Utopia is run by a secret police/CIA/KGB type group and everyone knows about it? So dumb.
Picard's ever present problem is that it's written like the TNG movies, but only 1 of those movies was actually good and the other two were either bad or difficult to like.
Likewise, Picard has its good and well-written points, but then there's the bad and the difficult to like and the end result is basically a show like Nemesis in quality. You don't want to hate it, sometimes it's actually quite good, and then sometimes you just want to punch everyone involved because really?
For my own part, I was on board to see the Enterprise-F in action.
Those damn writers! They bring the ship in and for what? A decommissioning ceremony? Why the hell didn't they decommission the E and then have the F? Or just make it a damn commissioning ceremony!
As it is it's like they just cheated me and kicked me in the balls while they were at it!
Data reappearing as he did felt a little forced, but its in keeping with ST styles and honestly it does work. The idea of Section 31 though is strange, Warf keeps dropping them like we'd drop the FBI or such when in the DS9 series Section 31 was not only ultra secret, but also generally proven to not even really exist in the way that many thought. The idea of them running Starfleet's main research station is curious when in the past they were more headspace based and such.
I wonder if its one of those things where the original lore says X and then its slowly twisted and changed until its hit Y without the writers realising. Or with a lot of subtle changes that makes the viewer go "wait wasn't that X not Y" without connecting the dots.
Discovery ruined Section 31 to a cartoonish level. What DS9 establishes is that yeah, Section 31 kind of isn't even a real organization. It a cabal of people taking a section (the 31st one) of Star Fleet charter out of context to due extrajudicial things they want to do. It's a conspiracy of people who think the ends justify the means. I like that take, it's kind of smart, quite frankly.
Of course, it was too smart for Discovery and suddenly section 31 is an actual branch of Star Fleet that's completely out in the open with their own uniforms and shockingly big fleet. Also, everyone is automatically subservient to them. They are at the apex of The Federation somehow. Like wow, when did that happen? Apparently this Utopia is run by a secret police/CIA/KGB type group and everyone knows about it? So dumb.
I feel like the issue with S31 is that they were too damn interesting. In DS9 they were this nefarious and unclear group filled with mystique and uncertainty about their methods and goals and what they meant for the franchise. They were so cool as an idea, but what made them cool in part was how incredibly ill-defined they were. No one knew what S31 was, if it was real or a conspiracy, how vast or big they were. They were just a giant ??? and it made them interesting.
Too interesting.
Fanfiction foreshadowed the groanworthy places S31 would go honestly, and Discovery/Picard, and even Enterprise before them, went the same way; S31 loses everything that makes it interesting if they're the focus of any amount of attention beyond the vague. They just become some bland lame secret nazi mafia doing super shady and obviously evil gak.
They were so interesting they just started showing up everywhere. Like quantum superposition, they collapsed into a steaming pile of groan the moment we looked at them for too long but it was that state of superposition, of not knowing what they really were or what they were really about, that made them interesting in the first place. They're not interesting anymore.
They mostly make me shake my head and say 'god damnit not these dumbshits again.'
It's definitely a bit too dark. Like sure Worf, Picardy, and Beverly already had tragedy in their past but a lot of the rest didn't need to happen.
I did like the exploration of Picard's broken childhood in S2 though.
Overread wrote: I think the only part that felt odd is Voyager being there. I know its a good many years, but that's a starship and at the end of its season it was teched out with future tech. If anything it should have been in Daystrum not in the museum if it was stored and honestly it should still have been within service and active use.
If we're going by Beta Canon the Intrepid class didn't really measure up to the design pressures Starfleet had post Dominion War and its main claim to fame was introducing a number of highly experimental technologies, some which were easily integrated throughout the fleet and others (like the variable geometry) which Starfleet abandoned pursuing different technological solutions.
But beyond that, and going back to both Alpha and Beta Canons, the Voyager absolutely deserves its place there. After they managed to advise Starfleet of their survival (and later established brief but regular contact through the array) they became overnight celebrities in the Alpha Quadrant. They almost certainly gutted the borg and future tech first, but there was absolutely no way they weren't going to put that thing in a museum after it hoofed its way across the galaxy and de-fanged the Borg in the process.
(By the way, I just finished the Autobiography of Kathryn Janeway, read by Kate Mulgrew. Surprisingly solid story and a great performance throughout - and it provided the coda I always felt Voyager sorely needed.)
If any ship didn't belong there...
Spoiler:
I'd say it was the Defiant. That ship was lost at Chin'toka, and its replacement (the one presumably here in the museum) is the Sao Paolo, which lasted all of six episodes before DS9 ran out, and only really has the battle of Cardassia Prime under its belt.
I never quite get all the complaints about Harry never getting promoted because what's the point of promoting him?
They were in the middle of nowhere, there weren't really any roles or duties for him to be promoted into. Chances are a promotion for him would have come with a ship transfer or someone above moving out; but no one really moved out nor died off in the series in a big way (in fact outside of red-shirts I think we only lost Kes as a main character).
So you could have promoted him but it would have been pips and no actual difference.
The other thing, and even Picard has touched on this but never really gone into detail; is in a society with no money (except when trading at Quarks) and with replicators that can make almost anything you desire and with what is likely a seriously good welfare system - what is the concept of a job in the Federation.
It's really hard to work out how land, money, trade, wealth, society, jobs, etc.... function. What perks do you get with promotion? In the world we live in a huge part is not just different duties and respect, but also a higher grade of pay (typically). Federation lacks that last part, so does Harry need to be promoted if he's not actually going to get anything to go with it?
His role on the ship can't really change; he won't get better rooms, better replicators, better pay (even if its backpay when they get home)
Recognition for the skills and effort put into the work someone does. Sure, Janeway and Chakotay both know Harry is good at his job but on a technical level he's still the lowest commissioned officer rank. He might be an Alpha Shift command crew Ensign but that doesn't give him rank over the other Ensigns and after 6 years in the Delta Quadrant, at the very least Harry should have been promoted to Lieutenant. He was already doing a lot of the work anyway and if ranks only really came out in times of crisis, nobody is going to listen to an Ensign.
Gert wrote: Recognition for the skills and effort put into the work someone does. Sure, Janeway and Chakotay both know Harry is good at his job but on a technical level he's still the lowest commissioned officer rank. He might be an Alpha Shift command crew Ensign but that doesn't give him rank over the other Ensigns and after 6 years in the Delta Quadrant, at the very least Harry should have been promoted to Lieutenant. He was already doing a lot of the work anyway and if ranks only really came out in times of crisis, nobody is going to listen to an Ensign.
This.
It’s also good for morale. I’ve had jobs where no matter how hard you worked, you never got recognition. Payrise entirely aside, just to have your efforts acknowledged is pleasing. When you don’t, it’s demoralising and you either shift jobs, or stop bothering.
LordofHats wrote: Picard's ever present problem is that it's written like the TNG movies, but only 1 of those movies was actually good and the other two were either bad or difficult to like.
Likewise, Picard has its good and well-written points, but then there's the bad and the difficult to like and the end result is basically a show like Nemesis in quality. You don't want to hate it, sometimes it's actually quite good, and then sometimes you just want to punch everyone involved because really?
For my own part, I was on board to see the Enterprise-F in action.
Those damn writers! They bring the ship in and for what? A decommissioning ceremony? Why the hell didn't they decommission the E and then have the F? Or just make it a damn commissioning ceremony!
As it is it's like they just cheated me and kicked me in the balls while they were at it!
Data reappearing as he did felt a little forced, but its in keeping with ST styles and honestly it does work. The idea of Section 31 though is strange, Warf keeps dropping them like we'd drop the FBI or such when in the DS9 series Section 31 was not only ultra secret, but also generally proven to not even really exist in the way that many thought. The idea of them running Starfleet's main research station is curious when in the past they were more headspace based and such.
I wonder if its one of those things where the original lore says X and then its slowly twisted and changed until its hit Y without the writers realising. Or with a lot of subtle changes that makes the viewer go "wait wasn't that X not Y" without connecting the dots.
Discovery ruined Section 31 to a cartoonish level. What DS9 establishes is that yeah, Section 31 kind of isn't even a real organization. It a cabal of people taking a section (the 31st one) of Star Fleet charter out of context to due extrajudicial things they want to do. It's a conspiracy of people who think the ends justify the means. I like that take, it's kind of smart, quite frankly.
Of course, it was too smart for Discovery and suddenly section 31 is an actual branch of Star Fleet that's completely out in the open with their own uniforms and shockingly big fleet. Also, everyone is automatically subservient to them. They are at the apex of The Federation somehow. Like wow, when did that happen? Apparently this Utopia is run by a secret police/CIA/KGB type group and everyone knows about it? So dumb.
I feel like the issue with S31 is that they were too damn interesting. In DS9 they were this nefarious and unclear group filled with mystique and uncertainty about their methods and goals and what they meant for the franchise. They were so cool as an idea, but what made them cool in part was how incredibly ill-defined they were. No one knew what S31 was, if it was real or a conspiracy, how vast or big they were. They were just a giant ??? and it made them interesting.
Too interesting.
Fanfiction foreshadowed the groanworthy places S31 would go honestly, and Discovery/Picard, and even Enterprise before them, went the same way; S31 loses everything that makes it interesting if they're the focus of any amount of attention beyond the vague. They just become some bland lame secret nazi mafia doing super shady and obviously evil gak.
They were so interesting they just started showing up everywhere. Like quantum superposition, they collapsed into a steaming pile of groan the moment we looked at them for too long but it was that state of superposition, of not knowing what they really were or what they were really about, that made them interesting in the first place. They're not interesting anymore.
They mostly make me shake my head and say 'god damnit not these dumbshits again.'
Fair enough, but the shadowy, dark conspiracy version of S31 is still better than them having their own fleet and army and chain of command in the starfleet org chart.
Anyways, Enterprise F? Where was that?! Did I miss something? I might be an episode behind. I thought they came out on Thursdays.
The other odd thing is who keeps their display ships 100% active with a cloaking device. And of all the ships on display why the Bird of Prey and not the Defiant's.
They have the tech, but it is a deliberate treaty choice. Part of the alliance/peace deal with the klingons and I think Romulans? The Klingons realised they were inferior, and only cloaks give them an edge. So to reassure them and the Roms the Feds don't have cloaks. The DS9 ship got it through a special deal. Thats why the actions of Picard could actually shatter multiple intergalactic deals...
The Khitomer Accords established that the Federation would never develop cloaking technology to stop the arms race with the Klingons. The Romulans benefited from this anyway and I think later signed on to later additions such as the ban on Isolitic weapons.
The deal where the Defiant got a cloaking device was during the build up to the Dominion War. In return for all the data the Federation had on the Dominion, the Romulans loaned a single device to be used on the Defiant, with the condition it not be used in the Alpha/Beta Quadrants.
Well I guess Romulus doesn't exist anymore but does the Romulan Star Empire still exist as a political body? They must have had multiple planets. We just saw the Obsidian Order in Season 1 right?
That tends to instead be the disingenuous argument put forth by fans of nutrek when they're feeling generous by not accusing critics of various isms and phobias.
