He still could be, we don't know if she was telling the truth, it could have been a ruse to discredit Leeland for her to gain power, that would be an interesting twist.
Formosa wrote: He still could be, we don't know if she was telling the truth, it could have been a ruse to discredit Leeland for her to gain power, that would be an interesting twist.
Good point - we know Georgio is playing games and now apparently in charge of that ship (and maybe the squadron of ships that was flying about)
That could actually be a good explanation as to why on Earth the Federation would ever allow something like Section 31 to exist in the first place: they didn't. It fell victim to "those who fight monsters syndrome".
It's possible Georgiou is looking to snaffle the best of the best tech in our reality, with a view to nipping back to the Mirror Universe, and picking up where she left off.
Though her sticking around and taking over Section 31 would explain why we don't talk about that sort of thing occurs later in the timeline.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: It's possible Georgiou is looking to snaffle the best of the best tech in our reality, with a view to nipping back to the Mirror Universe, and picking up where she left off.
Though her sticking around and taking over Section 31 would explain why we don't talk about that sort of thing occurs later in the timeline.
Why would she need to go home to take over the galaxy......
That could actually be a good explanation as to why on Earth the Federation would ever allow something like Section 31 to exist in the first place: ".
Power structure. Thirst for revenge. The sheer challenge of it.
I feel we may need to collectively refresh on Section 31, and where their name comes from.
Via Memory Alpha (so canonical only, apologies if it’s further investigated in spin off media)
The organization's title came from the original Starfleet Charter, Article 14, Section 31, which allowed for extraordinary measures to be taken in times of extreme threat
Now, that in itself is not describing an inherently shady organisation. Indeed, one could argue its little different than reserving the right to declare martial law should the need arise.
It’s something most governments have the option to do.
Now, exactly where they draw the line? That’s where the moral ambiguity comes in. Consider Georgiou’s plan from the end of Season 1. Blow up Q’on’os entirely. Cut off the head. It’s horrific, but would most certainly work. The arguments lies in deciding when such an action is warranted.
Against the Klingons and Romulans? Well, there will always be another way. The Borg? Federation was all up for genocide at the time, and Janeway certainly had some ideas in that respect. (Future Janeway at any rate). The plague they used Odo as a vector to wipe out the Changelings?
In short, you can go from SAS style Black Ops, in the name of preserving peace and shortening conflicts, to something far, far more sinister relatively easily. Just need to convince yourself the threat is sufficient to justify the means.
Particularly if you’re in a position to get only one of many hands dirty.
How many times have we seen ‘for the greater good, ends justify the means’ spin out of control? Where a once real threat is extinguished, and others subsequently invented or exaggerated to push an agenda?
Now this is specifically rhetorical here, as I’m sailing dangerously close to Political discussion.
It’s seemingly part and parcel of what we call civilisation!
Its kind of weird when you think about it. Once the Feds hit a near post scarcity economy in TNG, whats the reason exactly for conflict? At least in TOS there are multiple mentions of regions of space with poor resources (Klingons) and galactic problems of food (ST II). But once you're hitting the time of The Picard, all thats kind of bye bye...
Guess it shows The Federation working as intended, albeit by it by baby steps.
They turned a post nuclear war Earth into a paradise (as noted in DS9), and have the technology to do much the same to other planets.
Again, DS9 has that wonderful Root Beer analogy between Quark and Garak that helps set things nicely.
So over time, it’s likely Section 31, possibly other ‘dirty secrets’ operate ever more from the shadows. Necessary in the early days, when The Federation was an upstart. By the end of DS9, they’re one of the dominant forces in the Alpha Quadrant - But also known for sticking to treaties, and pursuing dissident factions among their own number.
With a pretty solid Union with the Klingons, and arguably a new found respect from the Romulans? It’s possible they’ll be able to ramp up their good work, with less worry about intervention being taken for meddling (for instance, Bajor was a bit ‘kid gloves’ originally. Helping, but not aiding.
Back to TOS and Disco? Still establishing itself, and showing they were genuinely more interested in exploration and cooperation that beating you up.
Frazzled wrote: Its kind of weird when you think about it. Once the Feds hit a near post scarcity economy in TNG, whats the reason exactly for conflict? At least in TOS there are multiple mentions of regions of space with poor resources (Klingons) and galactic problems of food (ST II). But once you're hitting the time of The Picard, all thats kind of bye bye...
Well apart from needing it for an interesting narrative they still have stuff they can't replicate iirc? Plus some races that culturally clash and feel that the Federation is trying to convert them - again its similar to the Culture and they are much more advanced than the Federation.
Plus usually some ancient races like popping in and messing about with stuff -causing wars, stiring up the nats nest - see Q, Vorlons and Shadows etc.
Now where they will go with it in the show is interesting - they did touch on the fact that Burnham fitted in well with the Mirror Universe and even Tilly was beginning to grow there - and then she regressed to a giggling school girl / officers pet
Well apart from needing it for an interesting narrative they still have stuff they can't replicate iirc?
Lots of stuff can't be replicated. Tholian silk, latinum, dilithium, and probably other stuff I'm not remembering. You need industrial replicators (huge machines) to produce a lot of materials, and some are too complex/energy intensive to replicate at all.
Wasn’t it explained at one time that the replicators aren’t actually creating from nothing, but rather assembling from vats of raw material located elsewhere on the ship? I know they’ve also talked at times about returning the dishes and such to the replicators when finished.
Ok so new episode dropped and it was good! I know, your all shocked that i would say that but it was actually good, its tried to tie in STD with TOS and it did a fairly good job of it, it also showed us where the timelines "SEEMED" sorry to emphasise but some people dont understand something appearing to be the case and actually being the case, but i digress, it seems to show where the timelines of this series and TOS diverged.
Major plot spoiler
Spoiler:
essentially Burnham died in TOS timeline but it looks like the red angel led spock to having her saved, this "COULD" explain why spock has no brother but now has a sister and explain why she never turned up anywhere in any way ever before, I still think the red angel is burnham but I kinda dont mind now if thats the case IF it combines STD with canon trek, which would make STD canon
So, Spock was going mad because his feeble logical vulcan mind insisted on the "linear time" concept being the standard instead of the big ball of wibbly wobbly timey-wimey-quantum stuff?
AduroT wrote:Wasn’t it explained at one time that the replicators aren’t actually creating from nothing, but rather assembling from vats of raw material located elsewhere on the ship? I know they’ve also talked at times about returning the dishes and such to the replicators when finished.
Can't remember honestly.
Wouldn't surprise me though.A lot of the writers for later TNG seasons, DS9, and Voyager went on record as hating the idea of the replicator because of how it bottlenecked them when making stories, so they tried as hard as they could to downplay them (why you never seem to see anyone use them for anything but food in most later Trek series').
Formosa wrote: Ok so new episode dropped and it was good! I know, your all shocked that i would say that but it was actually good, its tried to tie in STD with TOS and it did a fairly good job of it, it also showed us where the timelines "SEEMED" sorry to emphasise but some people dont understand something appearing to be the case and actually being the case, but i digress, it seems to show where the timelines of this series and TOS diverged.
Major plot spoiler
Spoiler:
essentially Burnham died in TOS timeline but it looks like the red angel led spock to having her saved, this "COULD" explain why spock has no brother but now has a sister and explain why she never turned up anywhere in any way ever before, I still think the red angel is burnham but I kinda dont mind now if thats the case IF it combines STD with canon trek, which would make STD canon
Agreed - this was a much better episode - the first few moments was a wtf - ohh thats quite cool.
Can't really fault anything - although it was amusing when
Spoiler:
They decided to go renegade and one assumes only the bridge crew know, the other 300 or so other crew will doubtless find out in due course....
Especially good for me was the Pike and Vina story elements, really nicely played by both of them.
and I thought the PTSD of the Dr is interesting (although I did wonder if he might be the mirror version - I don't think we ever heard about his counterpart?
Spock was actualy good and as always Georgio was a scene stealer - amuses me that people who know what she is and where she is from still take her at face value.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: So glad most of the Spock nonsense is now resolved. Don’t mind him being in the show, but the Search For Spock V1.1.0 just didn’t quite land for me.
Maybe it’ll play better binge watched?
Nice to see a bit more of the Bridge crew too. Though they really need to crack on with giving them time in the limelight.
Nah they just got their mandatory single line - Detmer might have got two... but very short ones.
They don't seem that interested in them, the cybered up woman might get more now she is feeding info to the Squid people .... or not.
I notice that unlike the Kilingon home world that Earth and the other Fed planets maintain their complete lack of defences to make sneak attacks that much more effective (I think this happens in every incarantion of the tv shows)
But def lookiing forward to the next one whereas before was wondering if this was going the same way as Walkng Dead which I gave up on.
I do hate when shows try to make you care about someone only as they’re killing them off. You have to get me invested Before that. The only thing her death makes me feel is anger at the writers for wasting her potential.
AduroT wrote: I do hate when shows try to make you care about someone only as they’re killing them off. You have to get me invested Before that. The only thing her death makes me feel is anger at the writers for wasting her potential.
~Just finished the episode and was about to post that exact same thing, they developed a character then immediately killed her off, and i didnt give a crap about it, because i didnt know who she was, her motivations or anything, it was like killing off the red shirts in TOS, no one cares, utter utter waste of potential.
Do you think whatever messes up Captain Pike will happen this season? We see now that this show takes place many years after the pilot episode of TOS. According to Memory Alpha the reason PIke is crippled is a "training accident" but doesn't that sound like a cover up story for something that happened about a top secret, experimental, teleporting ship entangled with Section 31?
He has memories of his relationship with Stamets, but the associated emotional ties just aren't there alongside them because THIS Culber never made those emotional connections. They're secondhand memories and he's fresh out of the tank, still dripping with slime, so to speak.
Spock’s whole why did it choose me thing is kind of dumb though. I mean just look at it objectively, the first thing the angel did was tell him how to save his sister. His sister who went on to “cause” the Klingon war amongst all the other stuff that’s gone down. That alone is one hell of a butterfly.
AduroT wrote: Spock’s whole why did it choose me thing is kind of dumb though. I mean just look at it objectively, the first thing the angel did was tell him how to save his sister. His sister who went on to “cause” the Klingon war amongst all the other stuff that’s gone down. That alone is one hell of a butterfly.
Janeway wiped out an entire timeline of billions to save a couple of people.... yep trek is really dim when it comes to time travel.
AduroT wrote: Spock’s whole why did it choose me thing is kind of dumb though. I mean just look at it objectively, the first thing the angel did was tell him how to save his sister. His sister who went on to “cause” the Klingon war amongst all the other stuff that’s gone down. That alone is one hell of a butterfly.
Janeway wiped out an entire timeline of billions to save a couple of people.... yep trek is really dim when it comes to time travel.
That timeline wasn't supposed to exist anyway. And Burnham didn't cause the war. The Klingons did, the war was inevitable.
Uhh just watched that - what a shockingly poor episode.
A few tiny sparks of enjoyment amongst the dross - so much dross.
Spock and Burnhams interactions - nice - good stuff.
Detmer got more lines - hurah
Spock, Pike and the Admiral - always good in every scene.
The cast deserve so much better - they can do good stuff - just get a decent writing team.
The bad, oh so very bad - the constant plot hole swallowed by more plot holes - URGGGGhhhhh
Tedious Silly Tilly on the Bdige - vomit.
The Skynet plot is just lame and so telegraphed.
The scary minefield - really - the mines you can see FFS - just shoot the bloody things. But no we don't use our guns anymore.
As others have said - the whole - look here is a character we have not bothered with - lets give her more than a token line and kill her. Rubish lazy writing again
Lets be unpredictable with the lumbering scow that Discovery is apparently on impulse - and use standard manuervers - cos thats not predictable. Why not let Detmer just fly and use her vaunted piloting skills.
The scary (and SToopid) AI only needs cyborg girl - so doesn't blow up Discovery once she is on the station because....
Cybog girl does not shoot main cast because....
Lets stand here on the bridge watching the fight rather than......say beaming over some actual security officers with more guns or in fact beaming cyborg girl elsewhere or in fact doing anything.
Oh no's - cyborg girl is going to die - if only we could like beam her into the brig or something and save/interrogate her - like we did with Tyler last season......nope lets just watch her die.
Suspension of disbelif is all very well but this was just mindless stupidity from scene to scene.
Not to mention that Burnham spent a bunch of time wailing verbally at Airiam instead of checking if what's-her-face was still alive after having her means of breathing disconnected from her face. No one cares about the poor security officer.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Not to mention that Burnham spent a bunch of time wailing verbally at Airiam instead of checking if what's-her-face was still alive after having her means of breathing disconnected from her face. No one cares about the poor security officer.
Good point - one of so many awful elements to this starship crash of an episode.
How the hell did any of those people think that plan was going to work? If we Pretend to kill Michael, her future self will come back and save her and fall into our trap, because she totally won’t remember that we’re faking it and it’s a trap. At least Michael and Spock realized that last second and really committed to it.
AduroT wrote: How the hell did any of those people think that plan was going to work? If we Pretend to kill Michael, her future self will come back and save her and fall into our trap, because she totally won’t remember that we’re faking it and it’s a trap. At least Michael and Spock realized that last second and really committed to it.
Ya I don't really understand how it works... Like does the Red Angel have a TV in the future that she can watch the past and get tricked by plot twists? How does she know what's going on at all times but doesn't know how it happened and only knows within the nick of time and so can never be proactive about stuff....
Think I am done with this program now, it never was the greatest but "The Michael Burnham Show (with added cast of mooks and officers of higher rank to order around)" is getting really old.
ingtaer wrote: Think I am done with this program now, it never was the greatest but "The Michael Burnham Show (with added cast of mooks and officers of higher rank to order around)" is getting really old.
I have not watched the most recent episode yet but I am currently in the same place. Sad becuase I like alot of the characters but the contant unrelenting everything is about "Michael Burnham" is really anooying (as bad as the Silly Tilly rubbish)
I am wondering if it will all turn out ot be a holo-deck anylsis of her insanity.....
ingtaer wrote: Think I am done with this program now, it never was the greatest but "The Michael Burnham Show (with added cast of mooks and officers of higher rank to order around)" is getting really old.
Its the only new trek for me at the moment and as much as I dont like it I want to finish it, not going to be one of those people that likes or dislikes something having not actually watched it
ingtaer wrote: Think I am done with this program now, it never was the greatest but "The Michael Burnham Show (with added cast of mooks and officers of higher rank to order around)" is getting really old.
There was a particularly bad scene a few episodes ago where someone hailed The Discovery and Burnham told Pike to answer it. Like, surely Pike has the capability to decide whether or not to answer a hail on his own!
Anyway, for some reason now that they’ve captured the “Red Angel” I feel the show will get better. Nothing I can explain, I just feel like it’s going to pick up again.
So rumours are kicking around of concept art of.... The borg.... Allegedly (as in I can't find the art myself) they will be featured in season 3.
Now do I believe it... God no, it would be the death knell of the show, as much as the fans like the Borg I simply fail to see how they could implement them in any way that would make any sense at all, so I think it's just some fan theory that has gained a very small amount of traction.
I hope so! Last season I was going to ditch it and then the mirror universe thing happened and I found myself enjoying it (mostly because the Empress is such a badass) however with the reveal of the Red Angel I get the opposite feeling and think the Michael Burnham show will just intensify. Will watch the next episode and see...
I could see the Borg thing happening if they feel they need the ratings bump. They've proven that they'll mine the trek lore continuity be damned like it was dilithium on Quonos' moon.
warboss wrote: I could see the Borg thing happening if they feel they need the ratings bump. They've proven that they'll mine the trek lore continuity be damned like it was dilithium on Quonos' moon.
Why not?
They have a ready made instant out for any lore inconsistency built right into the plot.
Why Borg? Is it because of the probe and hijacking of the android person? Didn't seem very borgish to me, though I suppose the Klingons didn't seem very Klingon either...
I love the V'Ger theory though, wasn't that initially started by Shatner in his book?
ingtaer wrote: Why Borg? Is it because of the probe and hijacking of the android person? Didn't seem very borgish to me, though I suppose the Klingons didn't seem very Klingon either...
Lots of fan theories over the years have proposed that the Borg were basically made by humanity, inadvertently. The variations on the theory usually string together a series of events from The Motion Picture, Enterprise, First Contact, and Voyager as part of the idea, but it's got some popularity in the fandom (Borg Unimatrix Ships in STO were designed based on V'Ger).
I love the V'Ger theory though, wasn't that initially started by Shatner in his book?
In beta canon (a novel?), it was supposedly the NX-whatever Columbia that went back in time and inadvertently created the borg through their interaction with some delta quadrant race. Regardless, it couldn't have been TMP, First Contact, or Voyager as in the official alpha canon on Voyager it was stated that the Vaduar (sp?) who had been in hibernation for roughly a thousand years knew of the borg (albeit they were a minor annoyance at the time). Unless Christopher Columbus utilized transwarp, it couldn't have been anything on Earth that didn't involve time travel that created them. Hence, it could be Michael Burnham because everything is about her always.
warboss wrote: In beta canon (a novel?), it was supposedly the NX-whatever Columbia that went back in time and inadvertently created the borg through their interaction with some delta quadrant race. Regardless, it couldn't have been TMP, First Contact, or Voyager as in the official alpha canon on Voyager it was stated that the Vaduar (sp?) who had been in hibernation for roughly a thousand years knew of the borg (albeit they were a minor annoyance at the time). Unless Christopher Columbus utilized transwarp, it couldn't have been anything on Earth that didn't involve time travel that created them. Hence, it could be Michael Burnham because everything is about her always.
Oh there's nothing really in canon to support it. It's just a popular fan theory among some of the more hardcore, or at least it was back when I bothered to pay attention.
ingtaer wrote: Why Borg? Is it because of the probe and hijacking of the android person? Didn't seem very borgish to me, though I suppose the Klingons didn't seem very Klingon either...
I love the V'Ger theory though, wasn't that initially started by Shatner in his book?
Oh wow, I've suddenly had a flashback to almost 20 years ago whilst in a bookshop waiting for a bus where I picked up a Shatner ST novel and flicked through a few pages where the plot seemed to be that V'Ger had somehow ended up in the DQ and was given a basic level of consciousness by the Borg. Was it the other way around?
Also: Who decided that 'quadrants' was a good way to delineate space? Is it used outside of Trek? The way they talk about them is like they mean something very definite, but two neighbouring planets a couple of light years apart could be in different quadrants, whilst a point close to the galactic core and one on the rim are both in the same quadrant so treated as very close...
ingtaer wrote: Think I am done with this program now, it never was the greatest but "The Michael Burnham Show (with added cast of mooks and officers of higher rank to order around)" is getting really old.
Its the only new trek for me at the moment and as much as I dont like it I want to finish it, not going to be one of those people that likes or dislikes something having not actually watched it
Eh, personally I don't need to sit down and force myself to consume the whole bowl of dog turds before I declare "that's not the chocolate ice cream I wanted"
ingtaer wrote: Why Borg? Is it because of the probe and hijacking of the android person? Didn't seem very borgish to me, though I suppose the Klingons didn't seem very Klingon either...
I love the V'Ger theory though, wasn't that initially started by Shatner in his book?
Oh wow, I've suddenly had a flashback to almost 20 years ago whilst in a bookshop waiting for a bus where I picked up a Shatner ST novel and flicked through a few pages where the plot seemed to be that V'Ger had somehow ended up in the DQ and was given a basic level of consciousness by the Borg. Was it the other way around?
No, I remember that too. I also remeber a novel that somehow linked the probe builders from ST4 with the Borg somehow - they were old enemies, I think.
ingtaer wrote: I hope so! Last season I was going to ditch it and then the mirror universe thing happened and I found myself enjoying it (mostly because the Empress is such a badass) however with the reveal of the Red Angel I get the opposite feeling and think the Michael Burnham show will just intensify. Will watch the next episode and see...
At the moment I am mainly watching it for the Empress and Spock - they get the best lines and Spock actually dares to call out Burnham on her gak.
Pike is good and would have made a great central character but Grand Admiral Burnham of the Universe means thats not happened. Constantly crowbarring "Silly Tilly" in is really not helping - she actualyl had character progression in Season but has regressed to the super special child in the show
So, a possible new version of the beginning of the Borg? Or just a coincidentally similar thing?
Also why does his ship have all that stuff on it or how long has the AI been hiding there and modifying stuff? That seemed horribly contrived, even by Star Trek standards.
Also also, if you’re not allowed to delete it, but you are allowed to transfer it, just transfer it to something you can physically destroy. Why send it to the future when you can send it to oblivion?
Managed to sit through fridays episode oof Star Trek: Burnham cos my Mother likes it - Ughhh it was awful.
Way too much techno bable drivel and the constant Burnham adoration.....
Some of the array of stuff that makes no sense....
Spoiler:
Apparently the AI from the future is able is able to wipe out ALL life in the Galaxy (not the Federation which would have been magrinally more beliavlable) with some anti-matter torpedoes.
So thats all the myriad of races far more adavanced than the Federation - yeah right.
The super high tech suit whose technology can;t be matched is from..........the past made by a Federation scientist 20 years ago......
Did Mama Burnham every try to talking to the Sphere or similar advanced races - nope becuase she has the same Messiah complex as her daughter,
Burnham Burnham, Burnham - why is anyone else even in the show
Also also, if you’re not allowed to delete it, but you are allowed to transfer it, just transfer it to something you can physically destroy. Why send it to the future when you can send it to oblivion?
As for fridays episode..... please for the love of god dont let this be how the borg came about haha
No, thats just the way to go with fusion of flesh and machine. Nanoprobes. And then your veins go black. Its common knowledge
Your right, it's the common sci fi trope, I just saw green nanites, green glow and the assimilation of a human and thought "don't you bloody dare star trek!"
We know the Borg have been around since tje 15th century so this possible change would totally throw the whole thing into disarray.
As for fridays episode..... please for the love of god dont let this be how the borg came about haha
No, thats just the way to go with fusion of flesh and machine. Nanoprobes. And then your veins go black. Its common knowledge
Your right, it's the common sci fi trope, I just saw green nanites, green glow and the assimilation of a human and thought "don't you bloody dare star trek!"
We know the Borg have been around since tje 15th century so this possible change would totally throw the whole thing into disarray.
Well they were hinting that all technological prgress was because of "interference" so be prepared for all human historical advancement is due to........the Burnham family.
I wouldn't put too much faith in the channels proven to be peddling nonsense. I was subscribed to most of them from Midnight's Edge to Doomcock to Mecharandom42 back when I was hoping their dire months long supposed insider doom and gloom predictions for the cancellation of STD were accurate and it all turned out to be wrong with the series renewed for a third season. It's pointless to think that CBS will do right by fans when all the signals are indicating more of the same as STD when the same supposed retailer/licensor backlash didn't faze them at all.
So far the first Season grabbed me more than this one. I'm giving up on it for the moment and will return once all of the episodes are out. For now its just not grabbing me to keep watching it weekly.
There's far too many plot devices to shoo away difficult scenarios. That's always been a problem with Star Trek, but how quickly the crew can come up with solutions, or how little lasting impact events have just comes across as poor writing after a while.
Michael comes across as more of a Mary Sue than she did in the first series. Its all about her. It doesn't matter how important another character may have been in previous series, they get sidelined and have to jump on her train. Sure they may have written the overall plot to make her existence key to this current season, but characters forget about their own goals if they can instead further hers.
Spoiler:
The writers seem to forget the importance of plot elements between scenes. Something may be a concern, but then five minutes later they've moved onto another problem and its forgotten about. "We only have a short time to talk to x" - "Ok, we talked to x for a bit. We couldn't get what we wanted. Let's go do another thing and forget about that." - "Oh no x isn't there any more, oh well, Michael managed to move the plot along at the last minute anyway, so its fine". (Yes, that character was just awful. "I'm not going to tell you information. You'll do what I say. Oh, you didn't do what I said, and now my plans are ruined? Its all right, but things will resolve themselves somehow").
Saying that, why did Michael's Mother put so much effort into saving her so much? She went on at length about how little Michael's death would mean to her, as she'd seen here die 1000s of time. Well if it meant so little to you, and you'd just jump into another timeline, why'd you even bother saving her? There's just no gravity to any of the character's actions once time travel was introduce, as we know things will now inexplicably work out.
And did the Admiral, or what's her face - Ranking Officer - disappear for the entirety of the latest episode? Shouldn't she around for these sorts of high level talkers with the Mother, or interacting with the Section 32 agents when it comes to them directing the Discovery? So much for Control's opinion that Starfleet are stuck to the chain of command thing, as the senior officer seems to be staying in her bunk. Saying that, we've discovered that senior positions in Starfleet are now vacant. Has the Discovery actually told anyone this, or are they keeping quiet? As far as they were aware Control was out there, but maybe messaging a few ships and telling them what's going on could prevent the whole scenario Control's attempting - i.e. that its still in control of the top brass and using holograms to represent them.
...On review, things are getting stupid. This is feeling a lot like The Walking Dead in later seasons. Just plot contrivance after contrivance to reach wherever the writers want the plot to be each week. Events don't feel natural, nor are characters acting like real people, but instead like those off of a cheap sci-fi drama. Did they get rid of the first season's writing staff, or am I just looking back at that with rose tinted glasses (it was bad in places, but not this bad)?
Wyrmalla, that is a lot more eloquent than I can be. I did watch the last episode after saying I wouldn't but now wish I hadn't of bothered. What a waste, if the new Picard series carries on the same its the end of ST for me. Frankly I would rather watch Enterprise on loop than this.
I just don't get why they had nearly 50 years of a really popular setting and decided to tear it all up and make something completely different but keep the same name and a slight skin of the original. Why not just do something new in the first place (like Roddenberry did with Andromeda)?
Still there is only three more episodes left of this season and with any luck the 3rd will either be excellent or not happen at all (and if its terrible I can just pretend it didn't happen).
ingtaer wrote: I just don't get why they had nearly 50 years of a really popular setting and decided to tear it all up and make something completely different but keep the same name and a slight skin of the original. Why not just do something new in the first place (like Roddenberry did with Andromeda)?
While Star Trek has been incredibly well known and ground breaking with a core of *very* loyal fans for that 50 years, it not exactly right to call it a really popular setting at least in regards to mass market appeal as the various movie gross totals would attest to before the JJ reboot in 2009 with only a single classic movie breaking the $100 million mark before adjusting for inflation. Even after that adjustment, the best of them don't reach most marvel movies and that's the goals that they've been recently setting for the franchise with the budgets they've been giving them.
I don't agree with that change to chase after mass market appeal at the expense of long time fans who prefer the more niche cerebral scifi that it traditionally was but that's what CBS and Paramount are/were going after both in theatres and on tv/streaming. As for being more like Andromeda (or alternately Earth Final Conflict), it's barely a footnote in scifi TV history despite the pedigree of those involved and your question is both asked and answered in the same sentance IMO.
Whilst I do see your point warboss, I was talking more on the feel and flavour of the thing than the pecuniary, however from my very little knowledge I am led to believe that a lot of money that ST made was from licensing as opposed to box office. I also hear that the rebooted stuff (especially Disco) has been an utter flop in that regard.
ingtaer wrote: Whilst I do see your point warboss, I was talking more on the feel and flavour of the thing than the pecuniary, however from my very little knowledge I am led to believe that a lot of money that ST made was from licensing as opposed to box office. I also hear that the rebooted stuff (especially Disco) has been an utter flop in that regard.
That's what was claimed on the aforementioned youtube channels but I obviously have no insider knowledge myself. On a purely anecdotal basis, I'd agree with that assessment though. There were no disco ship plastic kits when I last checked a year ago like there are with classic trek and no ship models at all were initially available to my knowledge until Eaglemoss finally came out with a line almost a year after the premiere. Previously advertised merchandise like premium props and figs from McFarlane toys never showed up. That said, there may be a bias there. Yes, there are no AMT/ERTYL style model kits but the model building hobby overall is dying so it's not reasonable to expect a company to pour in tens of thousands of dollars on large plastic moulds for an unproven show. It's a different story when using kits from moulds that were done back in the 1980's to at best the early 90's where pumping out the sprues is just pennies each or if they're aiming for the very niche expensive premium market like the polar lights ones.
Wyrmalla wrote: So far the first Season grabbed me more than this one. I'm giving up on it for the moment and will return once all of the episodes are out. For now its just not grabbing me to keep watching it weekly.
There's far too many plot devices to shoo away difficult scenarios. That's always been a problem with Star Trek, but how quickly the crew can come up with solutions, or how little lasting impact events have just comes across as poor writing after a while.
Michael comes across as more of a Mary Sue than she did in the first series. Its all about her. It doesn't matter how important another character may have been in previous series, they get sidelined and have to jump on her train. Sure they may have written the overall plot to make her existence key to this current season, but characters forget about their own goals if they can instead further hers.
Spoiler:
The writers seem to forget the importance of plot elements between scenes. Something may be a concern, but then five minutes later they've moved onto another problem and its forgotten about. "We only have a short time to talk to x" - "Ok, we talked to x for a bit. We couldn't get what we wanted. Let's go do another thing and forget about that." - "Oh no x isn't there any more, oh well, Michael managed to move the plot along at the last minute anyway, so its fine". (Yes, that character was just awful. "I'm not going to tell you information. You'll do what I say. Oh, you didn't do what I said, and now my plans are ruined? Its all right, but things will resolve themselves somehow").
Saying that, why did Michael's Mother put so much effort into saving her so much? She went on at length about how little Michael's death would mean to her, as she'd seen here die 1000s of time. Well if it meant so little to you, and you'd just jump into another timeline, why'd you even bother saving her? There's just no gravity to any of the character's actions once time travel was introduce, as we know things will now inexplicably work out.
And did the Admiral, or what's her face - Ranking Officer - disappear for the entirety of the latest episode? Shouldn't she around for these sorts of high level talkers with the Mother, or interacting with the Section 32 agents when it comes to them directing the Discovery? So much for Control's opinion that Starfleet are stuck to the chain of command thing, as the senior officer seems to be staying in her bunk. Saying that, we've discovered that senior positions in Starfleet are now vacant. Has the Discovery actually told anyone this, or are they keeping quiet? As far as they were aware Control was out there, but maybe messaging a few ships and telling them what's going on could prevent the whole scenario Control's attempting - i.e. that its still in control of the top brass and using holograms to represent them.
...On review, things are getting stupid. This is feeling a lot like The Walking Dead in later seasons. Just plot contrivance after contrivance to reach wherever the writers want the plot to be each week. Events don't feel natural, nor are characters acting like real people, but instead like those off of a cheap sci-fi drama. Did they get rid of the first season's writing staff, or am I just looking back at that with rose tinted glasses (it was bad in places, but not this bad)?
Agreed in all respects - its bad and keeps getting worse. The way that every single person in the show is there to help Burnham except for the nominal bad guy is terribly written.
Right on with the plot contrivance there is not even any pretence that there is contunitiy between scenes or story lines, a few random cast members wonder into a room - say a few lines and wonder off, then others appear in a different room.
tellingly for me many of the the best moments in the show for Season 2, - eg Pike interactions with the Vina were really well done - did not involve Burnham....
ingtaer wrote: I also hear that the rebooted stuff (especially Disco) has been an utter flop in that regard.
Massively anecdotal, and 10 years ago now, but I worked in Toys R Us at the time of the release of the first reboot Trek film and remember it taking pride of place at the front of the store around opening. On the first day the stock was out, one guy came in and bought one of everything to do with Spock - 3 different sizes of action figure, the costume possibly, so on. Fair enough, proper nerd with extreme love for the character. Apart from that, the stuff just sat there. Never needed restocking, eventually it got moved back into the main aisles and then the footage started shrinking, after a few months it lost any dedicated signage etc.
I was asked why it wasn't selling, if I could maybe try to generate some interest etc, but as far as I was concerned the film was terrible and the toys had no inherent market. I'd left the store by the time the sequels happened so no idea if it was a similar case.
I'm on the "wait until the seasons over to binge it on holiday" train.
But I do wonder about the merc side of things. I remember having boxes and boxes of the TNG and movie micro machines when I was a kid. Most of my friends had some sort of toy Enterprise.
I don't even think I'd want any kids watching Disco...
Even for the slightly older people, have Wizkids released any Disco Attack Wing sets yet? Surely they should have season 1 things out. (sidenote, STO is doing disco stuff right now, so there's that, but that isn't advertising Disco exactly, that's more the other way around).
Even FFG, who are famously bad with release dates have things out within a year of the big Star Wars releases.
No, no Disco attack wing yet. Or clix. Ironically, they did license the Orville for a clix set already though. Eaglemoss is coming out with a separate line of STD ships apart from their classic trek ones though and they're about half way through so far. The current licensed Trek RPG has specifically said that STD isn't included in their license (though whether they add that in the future is anyone's guess). Those are the licensees that I follow regularly FWIW.
Compel wrote: I'm on the "wait until the seasons over to binge it on holiday" train.
But I do wonder about the merc side of things. I remember having boxes and boxes of the TNG and movie micro machines when I was a kid. Most of my friends had some sort of toy Enterprise.
I don't even think I'd want any kids watching Disco...
Even for the slightly older people, have Wizkids released any Disco Attack Wing sets yet? Surely they should have season 1 things out. (sidenote, STO is doing disco stuff right now, so there's that, but that isn't advertising Disco exactly, that's more the other way around).
Even FFG, who are famously bad with release dates have things out within a year of the big Star Wars releases.
Damn I didn't even think of attack wing and I play it every week nearly, but yeah, nothing disco yet and I am really surprised by that, they could easily have done an alternative enterprise, discovery, any number of the ships used during the battle of the binary star including the new "Klingon" ones... I'm gonna email them and see if anything is coming, because even though I don't like the show, I do like the look of some of the ships.
I've got a die-cast reboot Enterprise somewhere that I picked up when the first Abrams film came out. Annoyingly the engine nacelles are in rubbery plastic and are all bent. :(
The only licensee I've seen trying to go all-in on STD was Star Trek Online. The fact they're now only doing three "seasons" of content, and the latter ones are much truncated compared to prior "seasons" that related to the game's original 2410's plotline or the temporal agent/TOS material suggests it's probably not been the money spinner they hoped.
Also, I saw a fan theory the other day that I've decided to adopt as headcanon - the reason STD is such un-Treky nonsense is it's not actually a Star Trek show at all in the traditional sense; it's a depiction of a pulpy, shlocky holodeck programme from the late TNG era. Think about it - it looks *kinda* like the "real" TOS, but everything is overdone and exaggerated and flashier; it focuses on big bombastic conflict with the very thinnest veneer of how Starfleet "really" operates; it focuses down on a single character and perpetually flatters that character & makes them the centre of attention.
The reason Burnham doesn't seem like a real person is simply that they aren't, they're the main protagonist in a trashy holonovel, like the first draft of Photons Be Free.
If you like. Personally I find it easier just to ignore the stuff I don't like; just because Paramount says it's all canon doesn't mean I need to agree.
The reason Burnham doesn't seem like a real person is simply that they aren't, they're the main protagonist in a trashy holonovel, like the first draft of Photons Be Free.
I'll watch Redshirts if I want that. At least then it would be self aware about how trashy it was being.
AduroT wrote: So is Discovery the only non-Section 31 ship currently functioning? Of why does Control seem to really love that group?
Apparently it has decided - and this is a shocking twist I'm sure nobody could possibly have seen coming - that Ol' Mikey is a unique and immediate danger to its plans, more important than everyone and everything else.
At least she got to tell off her captain yet again when he was trying to participate in the decision making process. That'll teach him for thinking that he was in charge just because of his "rank".
AduroT wrote: So is Discovery the only non-Section 31 ship currently functioning? Of why does Control seem to really love that group?
Apparently it has decided - and this is a shocking twist I'm sure nobody could possibly have seen coming - that Ol' Mikey is a unique and immediate danger to its plans, more important than everyone and everything else.
Oh, yeah, that’s obvious. I mean more when that fleet of ships show up and they’re all Section 31 ships. Like did Control not bother hijacking any other Star Fleet ships or are there just no other Star Fleet ships after the war?
AduroT wrote: So is Discovery the only non-Section 31 ship currently functioning? Of why does Control seem to really love that group?
Apparently it has decided - and this is a shocking twist I'm sure nobody could possibly have seen coming - that Ol' Mikey is a unique and immediate danger to its plans, more important than everyone and everything else.
Oh, yeah, that’s obvious. I mean more when that fleet of ships show up and they’re all Section 31 ships. Like did Control not bother hijacking any other Star Fleet ships or are there just no other Star Fleet ships after the war?
You're putting way too much thought into this. The writers thought it would be cool to have Section 31 and do a classic non-Star Trek "AI is bad and dangerous" plot, and as per usual Mikey has to be at the centre of it. When achieving those things comes down to a choice between writing a difficult and careful piece of narrative or just making the puppets do the things you want and giving the baddies whatever resources are required to be a threat all the time, they plump for the latter.
I mean, if we're going to start questioning this dribble of curry-diarrhea of a show; Section 31 has its own ships, wait no, fleets of ships?!
Just finished watching the new episode and... Utterly utterly pointless, nothing happened in it, I turned it out and it just ended with nothing added to the plot and just crap thrown in as filler... Wow, possibly worst episode of the entire show for me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and control is the proto Borg, calling it now
I think I have finally worked Disco out, Burnham is actually a Q. Nothing else makes sense, explains why the universe revolves around her and why every threat is against her specifically...
On the last episode... It, um, happened? My brain ceased to process it after about three minutes.
Formosa wrote: Just finished watching the new episode and... Utterly utterly pointless, nothing happened in it, I turned it out and it just ended with nothing added to the plot and just crap thrown in as filler... Wow, possibly worst episode of the entire show for me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and control is the proto Borg, calling it now
Control's going to both time travel and jump to a spot of unexplored space? Meh, the writers could probably justify that. From what I can remember of the Borg's canon they were already a robotic race thousands of years ago, but hadn't conquered much till more recently.
Having the crew defeat Control and then there being a line about the danger of AI and how they'll be prepared next time (as Section 31 retreat into a darkened room) would be more appropriate.
I loved how enterprise couldn't destroy discovery (usually they destroy most ships with a salvo of two photon torpedos), and how they where surrounded in space by section 31 ships. Surrounded from 2 dimensions. I mean there where other gems, but these where my favourites
The overly drawn out "goodbye, you're so brave/noble/stupid" scenes really left me zoning out on that episode. Come on, we know that nothing bad's going to happen to Burnham...
Plus, they played that out with Saru and he seems to be walking and breathing just fine these days. Oh yeah, Hugh is back to doctoring the crew perfectly well, also.
Is the empress in it all anymore - I have not bothered with the last few epsiodes but might if she has some fun scenes - I can always fast forward the rest of the Burnham crap.
She’s been hovering around, but hasn’t really done much that I recall. Her most notable scene was
Spoiler:
confessing to Pike as he was departing Discovery to return to Enterprise that she was Terran from your mirror universe. Pike replied What mirror universe? then winked at her right before he transported.
AduroT wrote: What episode was that queen in? I don’t remember her?
There were a few "Short treks" that were webisodes between the seasons. She was in the first one "Runaway" - which was her and Tilly. They bonded over engineering drivel and icecream. The second ("Calypso") was about Harcourt Fenton Mudd, and the third ("the brightest star") was a Saru episode.
OMG... Mary Burnham is the red angel!?! Who could have predicted that? Well.. pretty much anyone who recognizes the razzie quality writing similar to current Star Wars and (from what I've heard but yet to watch) Doctor Who. I'll binge the season in a few weeks during a free trial of CBS All Access to see if it really is as bad as the reviews I listen to make it out to be.
Kind of disappointed that wasn’t the series finale, not because I hate the show (it’s still entertaining sci-fi action despite the bad writing) but simply because that would have been the perfect ending point for it all.
Well, that ending was certainly JJ trek through and through, they tried to wrap the series up and tie the loose ends they created and failed miserably, they have shunted disco into the future so now I'm doubly worried it will tie into Picard series and thus ruin it and still we have no explanation of how this all ties into the main timeline if at all, all the time travel gumf just makes it worse, not better.
Oh well, I'm done with this "star trek" now, gonna skip series 3 unless something drastic happens like the entire writing and production team gets fired and they bring on competent people who know what they are doing.
At least they ended up for season 3 where they should have been for the premiere episode. I won't elaborate further as I'm too lazy to fish out the spoiler tags and using the quick reply anyways.
Last night Star Trek: Discovery delivered on the promised game-changing second season finale. Now the showrunners are talking about what it all means.
Kurtzman talks Discovery season 3
Speaking with The Hollywood Reporter, Star Trek: Discovery co-creator and co-showrunner Alex Kurtzman broke down the second season finale in some detail. He also removed any doubt as to where the show is headed:
We are jumping 950 years into the future for season three.
Kurtzman talked about how the decision to jump the show into the 33rd century frees them up:
We love playing within canon. It’s a delight and a privilege. It’s fun to explore nooks and crannies of the universe that people haven’t fully explored yet. That being said, we felt strongly that we wanted to give ourselves an entirely new energy for season three with a whole new set of problems. We’re farther than any Trek show has ever gone. I also had experience working on the [J.J. Abrams] films where we were stuck with canonical problems. We knew how Kirk had died, and we wondered how we could put him in jeopardy to make it feel real. That’s what led us to go with an alternate timeline; suddenly we could tell the story in a very unpredictable way. That’s the same thought process that went into jumping 950 years into the future. We’re now completely free of canon, and we have a whole new universe to explore.
When asked if characters from other Trek series might show up, Kurtzman again noted the time jump puts the show far beyond where Trek has been before:
There will be canonical references to everything that has happened in the various shows; we’re not erasing that. But we’re so far past that point that all of that is a very distant memory. We’re very excited to see how you put the elements of Star Trek in an entirely new universe.
No details were provided on what the crew of the Discovery will have to deal with in this 33rd century, but he did indicate that it isn’t going to be all smooth sailing:
All I can tell you is that Control is officially neutralized, but there will be much bigger problems when they get to the other side of that wormhole.
Kurtzman on Pike, Picard and Section 31
Kurtzman also talked about the expanding Star Trek universe he oversees, including the buzz around a series set on Pike’s USS Enterprise, making it clear they are aware of the interest:
The fans have been heard. Anything is possible in the world of Trek. I would love to bring back that crew more than anything. It was a huge risk for us. One of the most gratifying things is to see how deeply the fans have embraced Pike, Spock, Number One, and the Enterprise. The idea of getting to tell more stories with them would be a delight for all of us.
The next show to launch will be the Picard series starring Sir Patrick Stewart. Earlier this week, CBS announced three more actors had joined the cast. Speaking to THR, Kurtzman gave a little update on the status of the show:
[The Picard series] going amazingly. We start shooting soon. It will be really different from Discovery in tone, pace, and story. I’m so excited with how our cast came together. Hanelle Culpepper, our director, is absolutely crushing it. We’re so excited because it’s so different. Yet, I think people who like The Next Generation will recognize that it’s made by people who love it equally. It will be really interesting to see how people respond.
The executive producer also briefly discussed the Section 31 series planned to go into production after the third season of Discovery:
If you’re a fan of Deep Space Nine, you’ve probably spent the past two years saying, “What the hell are they doing with Section 31? That’s nothing like the Section 31 we know.” That’s exactly right. In Deep Space Nine, they did not have badges or ships. They’re an underground organization. What you see on Discovery and our upcoming show with Michelle Yeoh is how Section 31 became that organization and why it was so underground by the time Deep Space Nine comes around.
Paradise talks Discovery season 2 finale
Alex Kurtzman’s co-showrunner (and co-writer of the season finale) Michelle Paradise discussed “Such Sweet Sorrow” with Entertainment Tonight, explaining the reasoning behind the solution to how to sync the show with canon:
Wrapping this story up and being clear that because of the danger that Control presented, because of the spore drive, because of this time-traveling technology… for those reasons and to prevent any dangerous entities from trying to access these things again, we must nip it in the bud. The lying about it is a protection for Starfleet. That’s the reason that they do it and it is also to make sure that if Section 31 has any designs on doing the next version of Control, that it can’t get out of control — no pun intended — and create a similar problem in the future. It was about answering the season two story, eliminating the threat of Control so that we, as viewers, understand Control has been eliminated. The goal of this season was to take care of this problem and we have taken care of this problem successfully. And at the same time, that also puts us in line with canon. Those were the reasons that we did that.
The executive producer and writer provided some background on their approach to wrapping up the sibling arc of Spock and Burnham:
We had done a lot of work on the Burnham and Spock relationship over the course of this season. We knew from the beginning that we wanted to start them in a place where they were fractured and that the journey of the season would be to bring them back together and heal the wounds between them. Of course, he has to go on the Enterprise at some point, so you bring their relationship to a satisfying conclusion where the hurts of the past have been healed and where they have been able to help, support and influence one another. We talked a lot about what Spock could give to Burnham and what Burnham could give to Spock. Over the course of the season, we see that play out in a number of different episodes, leading to this culmination where they share with one another the ways in which they’re better and the ways in which they need one another and the ways in which they are okay knowing that she must go on to do this mission and he must return to the Enterprise. We were trying to find the best possible way to honor their sibling relationship and end them in a positive way.
Paradise also confirmed that when Michael was advising Spock to seek out his “opposite,” the writers were alluding to a specific character Spock will encounter in the future:
Absolutely. That is definitely Kirk.
Work on Season 3 has begun
As we have previously reported, production of the third season of Discovery is scheduled to begin in early July. Prep work has already started in Toronto: This morning, prop master Mario Moreira posted a tweet from his office saying he started prepping for season three this week and “couldn’t be more excited.”
Formosa wrote: Well, that ending was certainly JJ trek through and through, they tried to wrap the series up and tie the loose ends they created and failed miserably, they have shunted disco into the future so now I'm doubly worried it will tie into Picard series and thus ruin it and still we have no explanation of how this all ties into the main timeline if at all, all the time travel gumf just makes it worse, not better.
Oh well, I'm done with this "star trek" now, gonna skip series 3 unless something drastic happens like the entire writing and production team gets fired and they bring on competent people who know what they are doing.
God damn kurtzman has some brass balls to outright lie several times in that conversation, he is also living in cloud cookoo land if he believes a lot of what he has said.
So, after that finale I have a sudden craving to watch BSG again. Apparently the Trek universe does drones/fighters now. Add that to the list of canon things they've trampled all over. Were they really trying to build tension over whether Spock and the Enterprise would survive the battle?
I'm confused why nobody's allowed to talk about Discovery any more as well. Isn't that actually more dangerous than just recording the ship as officially destroyed in a quantum singularity event and lost with all hands? I mean, the ship existed, it'll be in Starfleet records all over the place and over the time it's been in service many, many people will have encountered it so I'm not sure how you plan to just wipe it out of existence. The "lost with all hands" thing is even a plausible explanation you can feed ot the Enterprise crew who witnessed it. The idea we're now never allowed to speak of it again, just to sort out the complete mess the series has caused with Trek continuity is about as clunky and poorly thought-out as the rest of the series has been.
They have a chance (about an hour-long chance, in fact) to try to recover the disjointed mess of a series at the start of season 3. They're now liberated from the concerns of stepping on the original timeline but that won't help with the frequently terrible writing. Presumably the time-jump is so we can now discover that the whole universe worships Michael due to how obviously perfect she is at everything.
Join us in our exploration of the 33rd century, a world where the entire human race consists of just clones of the Most Perfect Being - Micheal Burnham. Experience the struggles of the original version as she attempts to integrate into a society where everyone is as perfect as she is, and her subsequent desperate attempts to time travel back to a time where she can return to being The Only One Who's Ever Right And Cool And Awesome Evar.
Slipspace wrote: So, after that finale I have a sudden craving to watch BSG again. Apparently the Trek universe does drones/fighters now. Add that to the list of canon things they've trampled all over. Were they really trying to build tension over whether Spock and the Enterprise would survive the battle?
I'm confused why nobody's allowed to talk about Discovery any more as well. Isn't that actually more dangerous than just recording the ship as officially destroyed in a quantum singularity event and lost with all hands? I mean, the ship existed, it'll be in Starfleet records all over the place and over the time it's been in service many, many people will have encountered it so I'm not sure how you plan to just wipe it out of existence. The "lost with all hands" thing is even a plausible explanation you can feed ot the Enterprise crew who witnessed it. The idea we're now never allowed to speak of it again, just to sort out the complete mess the series has caused with Trek continuity is about as clunky and poorly thought-out as the rest of the series has been.
They have a chance (about an hour-long chance, in fact) to try to recover the disjointed mess of a series at the start of season 3. They're now liberated from the concerns of stepping on the original timeline but that won't help with the frequently terrible writing. Presumably the time-jump is so we can now discover that the whole universe worships Michael due to how obviously perfect she is at everything.
I had a similar urge with Babylon 5 about a year ago and it passed eventually when I couldn't find it on any streaming service that worked on my TV. When it came to amazon prime a couple months back, I watched about two episodes before admitting the urge had passed. Both are good shows.
As for the second paragraph, you asked and answered your own question. It's just a shoehorn to explain why we never heard about the massive leap in tech that is the spore drive even in passing reference and to a lesser extent the Discovery. It's also supposed to include Mary Burnham in regards to Spock personally but that doesn't make sense either as why him discussing his childhood foster sibling would be included. I think the inclusion of Burnham was silly but no worse than Sybok but hamfisting an excuse like that compounds the mistake (similar to killing Dr. Hue, one of the few characters I enjoyed in season 1, and then bringing him back half a dozen episodes later cheapens the death further).
Season 3 is where finally where/when they should have started the show but I have no faith in them keeping the ship and crew there. I didn't watch but I'm hearing that Georgiou is in the future as well (can someone confirm?), If that's the case and the character is still supposed to be heading up a Section 31 show in a year or two, I have *zero* faith that the DISCO ship and crew will stay segregated in the future where they can't feth up existing canon since we know they'll have to figure out a way back to get the character back to her own time.
STD is not canon with old trek, its a lie for marketing purposes.
"We’re farther than any Trek show has ever gone"
Because its generic sci fi number 4 with a trek skin.
" I also had experience working on the [J.J. Abrams] films where we were stuck with canonical problems"
Because you decided to set STD in the JJ verse and the backlash made you 360 and claim it was prime trek, you have not stuck to cannon at all, another lie.
"We knew how Kirk had died, and we wondered how we could put him in jeopardy to make it feel real"
That is why JJ made it a new universe and licencing money.
"That’s what led us to go with an alternate timeline; suddenly we could tell the story in a very unpredictable way"
Exactly why you made STD an alternate timeline.
"That’s the same thought process that went into jumping 950 years into the future"
So you could write yourself out of the corner you put yourself in and try to get back the baseline Trek fans.
" We’re now completely free of canon, and we have a whole new universe to explore."
No you are not, you are still bound by the canon of the preceding centuries.
"[The Picard series] going amazingly."
No it is not, its already behind schedule, another lie.
Klutzman needs to be sacked and the entire writing crew needs to be brought up to speed, I firmly blame the failures of STD on him and his bad management.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AduroT wrote: I’m really curious what this thing is they’re going to find that’s worse than the AI that wiped out all sentient life from the galaxy.
STD is not canon with old trek, its a lie for marketing purposes.
It's literally impossible to lie about this. Canon is a double edged sword. Fans demand it be consistent with their interpretations, but creators generally don't care what they interpretation is and have full power to declare anything, even contradictory things, canonical. George Lucas basically ran into the same thing in the closing years of Star Wars (though I'd say he was more vindictive and STD feels more like laziness/lets do it because it seems like a cool idea).
Really the egregious part of the statement isn't that it's a lie at all, but a rather big red flag that the guy doesn't pay any attention to fan forums. Which isn't uncommon, but I find it hard to believe that he's completely unaware of complaints about the series' fast and loose attitude with consistency while still going out of his way to make statements like this.
Because its generic sci fi number 4 with a trek skin.
It really seems like the second season went right off the deep end into sci-fi clicheville.
Because you decided to set STD in the JJ verse and the backlash made you 360 and claim it was prime trek, you have not stuck to cannon at all, another lie.
Still waiting for something that isn't some YouTube personalities randomly assembled self-serving conjecture on this claim.
If we're really going to start up this topic again (it went so well last time), I'm just going to point out as before that the entire narrative behind this claim appears to be nothing more than self serving hatedom, inventing an narrative to make something fans don't like more hate worthy because the real narrative is far less interesting (that the writers are just lazy).
"That’s what led us to go with an alternate timeline; suddenly we could tell the story in a very unpredictable way"
I'm not sure how that's a lie. It's a stupid thought process, especially in the way he's trying to use it to justify a plot that started in the realm of "cringe" and has dived head first into "groan."
"That’s the same thought process that went into jumping 950 years into the future"
Now this one is golden.
I really feel like there's this jump the shark moment here, where it becomes really obvious that everything I hate about STD, is the result of a creative team that jumps at anything that seems like a good idea, but like a bad fan fic writer never bothers to fully think through how that idea is suppose to work. Lots of good ideas just don't. They're too convoluted, too contrived, or too outside the realm of what the viewing audience actually wants/expects and STD seems to have managed to stumble into all three pit falls in a very short amount of time.
" We’re now completely free of canon, and we have a whole new universe to explore."
That's not a lie either, though also a stupid thought process given what's already happened. I enjoy a previous comment about someone wanting to watch BSG, cause I'm trying to figure out when Starbuck is going to magically appear (season 3-4 Starbuck, the awful one who wasn't really Starbuck... or was she? Who knows the writers were probably making it up as they went) and team up with Mary Sue Not a Vulcan Vulcan Human to save the galaxy from the machines by traveling back in time to rescue some punk as kid from future assassins this story got more and more generic and I struggle to fathom why anyone would go this route with Star Trek of all properties.
It's almost like he's just shoving middle finger at all the canon complaints surrounding the series, and while a lot of those complaints are more fanon than anything, it's a pretty dick way to respond to the fanbase.
"[The Picard series] going amazingly."
Not a lie either, though I think is thinking is wishful. Every piece of info that's come out about this series since it was announced has made it look more and more unappealing. It's like someone saw Star Trek Renegades and thought it was good and should be emulated somehow and that person needs to be fired immediately.
Cause Renegades was god awful and I lost all respect for Tim Russ and Walter Koeing for getting behind it like they did. Picardo gets a pass only because The Doctor was amazing.
It was very pretty, had lots of cool space scenes, and was about as convoluted, forced, and awkwardly retconned a plot job as I expected. That said, I kinda expect that out of Star Trek. I think ultimately I liked the first season a whole lot more.
It's literally impossible to lie about this. Canon is a double edged sword. Fans demand it be consistent with their interpretations, but creators generally don't care what they interpretation is and have full power to declare anything, even contradictory things, canonical. George Lucas basically ran into the same thing in the closing years of Star Wars (though I'd say he was more vindictive and STD feels more like laziness/lets do it because it seems like a cool idea).
Really the egregious part of the statement isn't that it's a lie at all, but a rather big red flag that the guy doesn't pay any attention to fan forums. Which isn't uncommon, but I find it hard to believe that he's completely unaware of complaints about the series' fast and loose attitude with consistency while still going out of his way to make statements like this.
I would call it a lie as he and others on the show know exactly what those complaints are as they have addressed them in the past, so the fact that they are doubling down on this clear falsehood means that they are knowingly deceiving people, lying.
Still waiting for something that isn't some YouTube personalities randomly assembled self-serving conjecture on this claim.
If we're really going to start up this topic again (it went so well last time), I'm just going to point out as before that the entire narrative behind this claim appears to be nothing more than self serving hatedom, inventing an narrative to make something fans don't like more hate worthy because the real narrative is far less interesting (that the writers are just lazy).
Mignights edge has has someone who is right in the middle of it all and that knows the production staff personally, they have interviewed this person and they have come out on air and spoken in depth about it, midnights edge is very credible and states any and all conjecture in their videos, its a very good channel that does its journalistic due diligence, so if an insider comes out and whistle blows on their channel, I trust it a lot more than the bought and paid for mainstream sites, one of which is actually owned by CBS.
'm not sure how that's a lie. It's a stupid thought process, especially in the way he's trying to use it to justify a plot that started in the realm of "cringe" and has dived head first into "groan."
Because it is trying to deceive people knowingly.
Now this one is golden.
I really feel like there's this jump the shark moment here, where it becomes really obvious that everything I hate about STD, is the result of a creative team that jumps at anything that seems like a good idea, but like a bad fan fic writer never bothers to fully think through how that idea is suppose to work. Lots of good ideas just don't. They're too convoluted, too contrived, or too outside the realm of what the viewing audience actually wants/expects and STD seems to have managed to stumble into all three pit falls in a very short amount of time.
Yep this one we agree on, they have royally jumped the shark and I put it all on Klutzmans shoulders, the cast, writers etc. are doing the best they can do with lack of experience (writers) in the universe they are destroying.
That's not a lie either, though also a stupid thought process given what's already happened. I enjoy a previous comment about someone wanting to watch BSG, cause I'm trying to figure out when Starbuck is going to magically appear (season 3-4 Starbuck, the awful one who wasn't really Starbuck... or was she? Who knows the writers were probably making it up as they went) and team up with Mary Sue Not a Vulcan Vulcan Human to save the galaxy from the machines by traveling back in time to rescue some punk as kid from future assassins this story got more and more generic and I struggle to fathom why anyone would go this route with Star Trek of all properties.
It's almost like he's just shoving middle finger at all the canon complaints surrounding the series, and while a lot of those complaints are more fanon than anything, it's a pretty dick way to respond to the fanbase.
Again its knowingly deceiving people with the goal of getting them to watch, that is lying pure and simple
Not a lie either, though I think is thinking is wishful. Every piece of info that's come out about this series since it was announced has made it look more and more unappealing. It's like someone saw Star Trek Renegades and thought it was good and should be emulated somehow and that person needs to be fired immediately.
Cause Renegades was god awful and I lost all respect for Tim Russ and Walter Koeing for getting behind it like they did. Picardo gets a pass only because The Doctor was amazing.
It was supposed to start shooting already, its been delayed due to licencing issues, the licencors want the show to be closer to real trek but the show runners and bad reboot want it to be in their universe so they can get the licencing money, if they want to remain on schedule they need to resolve this very quickly and get on before they end up majorly behind schedule, so saying that Picard is going well is an out and out lie, as its currently going nowhere at all.
Getting back to the finale, I've had 4 things that have been annoying the hell out of me since Friday, all of which show up the terrible writing on the show.
1. Leeland transports to Discovery and locks himself in the briefing room to access the sphere data. Then Georgiou and weird-face security officer (you can tell the writing is bad when I can't remember the name's of most of the non-Burnham characters) desperately try to access the locked room...only for them to then confront Leeland and tell him the data isn't there all along! So why are you so desperate to get to him then? If you'd have just left him in there to get more and more frustrated you would have bought yourselves all the time you need. Also, dude transported to your ship - just transport him off it into space.
2. Photon torpedo in the Enterprise. Firstly, no the Enterprise isn't going to be destroyed. We know this. Secondly, how crappy are the weapons they're using? That's a matter/anti-matter warhead going off inside the structure of the ship. Sure it causes a big chunk of damage, but how is that not destroying the entire ship?
3. Why is everyone so concerned about Discovery's shields and damage status during the battle? Literally one episode prior to the finale they'd tried to destroy Discovery to get rid of the sphere data. Now they're trying to keep it alive. The whole reason for going back to the "jump to the future" plan was because Discovery wouldn't allow itself to be destroyed. Why does the Enterprise not have a standing order to destroy Discovery as soon as its shields drop? For that matter, we find out repairing the shields is a physical task Tilly has to perform during the battle. So couldn't they have been taken offline manually/physically to circumvent the sphere data control? Every time the diminishing shield status is announced during the battle there should be cheering!
4. Was there a logical reason Burnham had to fly out to the location for the time jump in her suit? We see her almost die when debris smacks into her so why isn't she just in the shuttle with Spock? For that matter, how do they avoid taking a torpedo to the face? I'm pretty sure a torpedo detonation somewhere near them would be pretty fatal (though maybe not - see point 2).
Some of these questions might have been answered in the show but I don't remember that being the case. Seems like in the space of 45 minutes we have a whole stream of things happening because the plot demands it rather than because they make sense.
Pft, number two is easy! The ship survives because they closed that one blast door! I mean the whole point of blast doors is to protect the ship from blasts, duh!
God, there are so many problems with this episode that I just keep remember more if I think too hard. Why did Control put its Everything into Leeland so if he dies everything dies with him? Hell, how does he even “die” if hes Nanites? Control really needs to watch Gen:Lock and see how to properly utilize nanite swarms.
Mignights edge has has someone who is right in the middle of it all and that knows the production staff personally, they have interviewed this person and they have come out on air and spoken in depth about it, midnights edge is very credible and states any and all conjecture in their videos, its a very good channel that does its journalistic due diligence, so if an insider comes out and whistle blows on their channel, I trust it a lot more than the bought and paid for mainstream sites, one of which is actually owned by CBS.
Midnight's edge *CLAIMS* to have someone who is right in the middle of it all. It's an important distinction since literally none of their predictions of doom and gloom have ever come true despite their "insider" reports of behind the scenes turmoil. Their most recent one was that Picard production was delayed because of a licensee revolt demanding everything be changed asthetically... and production started within a few days of the original timeframe stated. BTW, I say that as someone who subscribed to them (and Nerdrotic and mecharandom and others) for years.
Wow, ok so I just had an epiphany the other week. I'm sure everyone here is familiar with the term Mary Sue which of course came out on fanfic for Star Trek. The term can be useful but I also think its one of the most overused terms on the internet and once upon a time even went on a rant about it. However, I must admit this show seems to be based on the premise of what if we actually canonized Mary Sue herself and purposefully made a whole show about her unironically. Once you look at it like that it all kinda of makes sense. Like they really lean into here including some of the most egregious symptoms like the fact she usually has a special connection to one of the main canon characters. In this case the most main character in all of Star Trek! She Spock's frikking sister! She has special abilities: she has all the Vulcan abilities like logic, super-science and even a newly revealed Vulcan Kung Fu that apparently is a thing but still retains her humanity. Also, Mary Sues usually die a heroic but tragic death saving everyone while the rest of the characters sadly fawn over her. Check. We had that scene go on for quite a while last week. Also, the fourth major symptom Star Trek is supposed to be an ensemble show but a Mary Sue story often gets that wrong and makes it all about Mary.
Like there is no description/symptom of a Mary Sue that Burnham doesn't fit. How can a writer of Star Trek not have heard of Mary Sue? The most famous Star Trek fanfic character of all time. Literally a transcendent one. They must have but honestly I think they were like.....let's just go with that....see what that would be like...
Formosa wrote: I would call it a lie as he and others on the show know exactly what those complaints are as they have addressed them in the past, so the fact that they are doubling down on this clear falsehood means that they are knowingly deceiving people, lying.
Know, when you put it like that I get it. Okay then.
Mignights edge
I've seen the videos. I find them completely nonsensical. Basic google searching shows nearly every claim to be false or a blatant misrepresentation. He can't even keep track of who owns what after the Viacom split.
It was supposed to start shooting already, its been delayed due to licencing issues, the licencors want the show to be closer to real trek but the show runners and bad reboot want it to be in their universe so they can get the licencing money, if they want to remain on schedule they need to resolve this very quickly and get on before they end up majorly behind schedule, so saying that Picard is going well is an out and out lie, as its currently going nowhere at all.
And this thing about licensing still makes no sense.
In fact when I search "Picard series delay licensing" I don't get anything about licensing issues until I find some reddit threads that seem to be talking from thin air.
CBS doesn't need a license for anything that is going on in STD or the Picard series. This claim, again, feels like something people are making up as part of hatedom.
And this thing about licensing still makes no sense.
In fact when I search "Picard series delay licensing" I don't get anything about licensing issues until I find some reddit threads that seem to be talking from thin air.
CBS doesn't need a license for anything that is going on in STD or the Picard series. This claim, again, feels like something people are making up as part of hatedom.
That's not what the assertion made was. The assertion was that they submitted the previews of the uniform and ship designs to licensing partners to pitch them for toys etc and they rejected them out of hand because they were too clearly an evolution of the STD/Kelivinverse style rather than the classic Trek style, and they want to make products that actually sell. How likely the claim is to be true is another question, since as pointed out Midnight's Edge tend to make claims that aren't terribly falsifiable for us regular non-industry plebs.
And this thing about licensing still makes no sense.
In fact when I search "Picard series delay licensing" I don't get anything about licensing issues until I find some reddit threads that seem to be talking from thin air.
CBS doesn't need a license for anything that is going on in STD or the Picard series. This claim, again, feels like something people are making up as part of hatedom.
That's not what the assertion made was. The assertion was that they submitted the previews of the uniform and ship designs to licensing partners to pitch them for toys etc and they rejected them out of hand because they were too clearly an evolution of the STD/Kelivinverse style rather than the classic Trek style, and they want to make products that actually sell. How likely the claim is to be true is another question, since as pointed out Midnight's Edge tend to make claims that aren't terribly falsifiable for us regular non-industry plebs.
and thats kind of the problem I suppose, you either believe it or you dont, since I have been watching them for a long time I trust them to give me good information, but when they had an ex show runner on that basically explained the inner workings of STD it cemented in my mind that they were to be believed, I also like how they clearly state what is their opinion and what is conjecture based on the information, something rarely seen in todays online media.
And this thing about licensing still makes no sense.
In fact when I search "Picard series delay licensing" I don't get anything about licensing issues until I find some reddit threads that seem to be talking from thin air.
CBS doesn't need a license for anything that is going on in STD or the Picard series. This claim, again, feels like something people are making up as part of hatedom.
That's not what the assertion made was. The assertion was that they submitted the previews of the uniform and ship designs to licensing partners to pitch them for toys etc and they rejected them out of hand because they were too clearly an evolution of the STD/Kelivinverse style rather than the classic Trek style, and they want to make products that actually sell. How likely the claim is to be true is another question, since as pointed out Midnight's Edge tend to make claims that aren't terribly falsifiable for us regular non-industry plebs.
Ah okay. I thought it was more of the other licensing thing.
This makes more sense actually, if only because it's come up before back when the JJ films were being produced and there was a big push for a toy line that fundamentally failed to take off. It wouldn't shock me if some morons are still trying to turn Star Trek into a merchandising franchise, ignoring that 40 year old Trekkies by and large are never going to buy much Merch and 10 year old kids probably aren't even watching STD and probably won't watch the Picard series either.
and thats kind of the problem I suppose, you either believe it or you dont, since I have been watching them for a long time I trust them to give me good information, but when they had an ex show runner on that basically explained the inner workings of STD it cemented in my mind that they were to be believed, I also like how they clearly state what is their opinion and what is conjecture based on the information, something rarely seen in todays online media.
This makes more sense actually, if only because it's come up before back when the JJ films were being produced and there was a big push for a toy line that fundamentally failed to take off. It wouldn't shock me if some morons are still trying to turn Star Trek into a merchandising franchise, ignoring that 40 year old Trekkies by and large are never going to buy much Merch and 10 year old kids probably aren't even watching STD and probably won't watch the Picard series either.
I don't know where you live in but trekkies everywhere I've lived across the US love buying classic merchandise. T-shirts, props, models, posters, toys (whether little ships like clix or action figures), magazines, books, comics, tchotckies, etc... you name it. Whether or not they're buying anything from STD or the jjverse is a whole other story though... I don't see myself ever spending a penny of anything from the DISCOverse personally; my most recent classic trek merch over the past year include a couple dozen clix, a couple RPG books, two eaglemoss models (with 3 more hopefully soon if they ever get in stock at the same time), a small resin ship (probably unlicensed but still technically trek), a keychain, and two books. YMMV.
I don't know where you live in but trekkies everywhere I've lived across the US love buying classic merchandise. T-shirts, props, models, posters, toys (whether little ships like clix or action figures), magazines, books, comics, tchotckies, etc... you name it. Whether or not they're buying anything from STD or the jjverse is a whole other story though... I don't see myself ever spending a penny of anything from the DISCOverse personally; my most recent classic trek merch over the past year include a couple dozen clix, a couple RPG books, two eaglemoss models (with 3 more hopefully soon if they ever get in stock at the same time), a small resin ship (probably unlicensed but still technically trek), a keychain, and two books. YMMV.
The die hard will buy lots of stuff. No argument.
But merchandising empires aren't built on the small subset of fans who will buy anything.
They're built on the general fan buying things, and the general Star Trek fan is too old to be interest in anything more than casual stuff like a t-shirt.
I don't know where you live in but trekkies everywhere I've lived across the US love buying classic merchandise. T-shirts, props, models, posters, toys (whether little ships like clix or action figures), magazines, books, comics, tchotckies, etc... you name it. Whether or not they're buying anything from STD or the jjverse is a whole other story though... I don't see myself ever spending a penny of anything from the DISCOverse personally; my most recent classic trek merch over the past year include a couple dozen clix, a couple RPG books, two eaglemoss models (with 3 more hopefully soon if they ever get in stock at the same time), a small resin ship (probably unlicensed but still technically trek), a keychain, and two books. YMMV
Someone else pointed out that Attack wing has zero STD ships which is surprising, the only place I have seen STD make an impact is Star Trek Online where they seem to be making a spin off for it.
I suppose the question is, would I buy any STD merch, no, quite likely not, the "ships" they released would have to be above and beyond in quality for me to purchase them.
If it's the eloquent older grey haired guy who is personally knowledgable about the movie business who runs his own podcast channel but occasionally gets on Midnight's Edge as a guest, it is. I was just asking as you said he is a former showrunner. It's pedantic but he's an editior and director by trade but I don't believe he's ever mentioned being a former showrunner (which typically comes from the writing side in the hollywood matrix of professions).
Someone else pointed out that Attack wing has zero STD ships which is surprising, the only place I have seen STD make an impact is Star Trek Online where they seem to be making a spin off for it.
I suppose the question is, would I buy any STD merch, no, quite likely not, the "ships" they released would have to be above and beyond in quality for me to purchase them.
In regards to Attack wing, I think it's been a while since they came out with *ANY* new ships as, at least when I last checked, their last few years worth of releases have been repaints of previous models. The last new one that I saw was the JJverse Enterprise and D7 but I can't say for certain that they didn't come out back in 2009 with the movie as some other release like a boardgame or some other prepaint. That said, I don't think they've announced any STD ships to my knowledge although I only follow them peripherally and don't actually play the game.
To be honest, the battle illustrated perfectly that drones and fighters were completely ineffective. Both Enterprise and Discovery remained intact despite being massively outnumbered; clearly the drones didn't work very well at all. That could be a good reason for why drones (no, not the Borg drones, silly!) aren't a thing later in the timeline.
Formosa wrote: Well another bad episode over and leaving a worrying thought in my head, Burnham possibly being in the Picard series :(
This episode is pure filler people so skip it if you want.
I fear that what most Trek fans want died on the cross 17 years ago when "Endgame" aired and Voyager ceased production.
You know I've been watching DS9 again, and I sat down last night with the episode entitled "His Way." It's the episode where Odo finally gets Kira. Way back when it first aired a lot of fans revolted against it. But, as I watch it now, it's one of the more powerful episodes in the entire franchise.
And you know what didn't happen in that episode?
There were no photon torpedoes.
There where no phasers.
No Romulans.
No Klingons.
No Warp chases.
No Alien take overs.
No OmG TeH UnIvErSe is Gunna splode!
It was two people and a hologram making a journey complete that started in "Children of Time" TWO seasons earlier.
I'm convinced that the caliber of writers that existed for this show in the 90s are extinct dinosaurs. We're probably never going to have that level of story telling, character creation and growth ever again.
I don't think that's true, that calibre of writers is still around, they're just not employed by two-bit hacks like Kurtzman.
The problem with Trek now is the same as it's been for ages - the wrong people are in charge. Until that changes, Trek will keep being randy drrrRRRRAAAHHHHmmmah action schlock because that's the only thing executives with no particular fondness for sci-fi and warbling buffoons like Kurtzman are capable of producing.
Yodhrin wrote: I don't think that's true, that calibre of writers is still around, they're just not employed by two-bit hacks like Kurtzman.
The problem with Trek now is the same as it's been for ages - the wrong people are in charge. Until that changes, Trek will keep being randy drrrRRRRAAAHHHHmmmah action schlock because that's the only thing executives with no particular fondness for sci-fi and warbling buffoons like Kurtzman are capable of producing.
Yodhrin wrote: I don't think that's true, that calibre of writers is still around, they're just not employed by two-bit hacks like Kurtzman.
Honestly I think this sentiment could be expanded to the entire entertainment industry in a lot of ways. Lots of it is brainless, poorly thought out, spectacle. And truly, audiences eat it up. Just look at the Transformers film franchise.
Yodhrin wrote: I don't think that's true, that calibre of writers is still around, they're just not employed by two-bit hacks like Kurtzman.
Honestly I think this sentiment could be expanded to the entire entertainment industry in a lot of ways. Lots of it is brainless, poorly thought out, spectacle. And truly, audiences eat it up. Just look at the Transformers film franchise.
Aint that the truth, we do get lucky sometimes and get some good films and series, but they are so rare, a very good example of this is Sense8, Stazynski took SJW culture and tropes and actually made a damn good show with a strong script and great characters, STD took the same tropes and culture and made an utter crap show, which is doubly bad as Trek has always had that kind of thing in it and has usually done a damn good job at social commentary, even if its a bit on the nose sometimes with the half black and white aliens (great episode).
There is so much to trek that they got wrong with STD and thats the saddest thing for me, I watch it for that bright and hopeful future, even DS9 oozed that theme but compromises had to be made to maintain that future, so it felt more real, STD has turned TOS into a dystopian future... how messed up is that? its literally broken TOS by forcing starfleet and the federation to regress technologically and culturally due to the Klingon war and Control, not to mention a sanctioned section 31 as the Federation intel service.... the ramifications of this secret police force are huge, to such an extent that I very much doubt that the writers understand how badly it mangles the federations ideals.
Yodhrin wrote: I don't think that's true, that calibre of writers is still around, they're just not employed by two-bit hacks like Kurtzman.
Honestly I think this sentiment could be expanded to the entire entertainment industry in a lot of ways. Lots of it is brainless, poorly thought out, spectacle. And truly, audiences eat it up. Just look at the Transformers film franchise.
Aint that the truth, we do get lucky sometimes and get some good films and series, but they are so rare, a very good example of this is Sense8, Stazynski took SJW culture and tropes and actually made a damn good show with a strong script and great characters, STD took the same tropes and culture and made an utter crap show, which is doubly bad as Trek has always had that kind of thing in it and has usually done a damn good job at social commentary, even if its a bit on the nose sometimes with the half black and white aliens (great episode).
There is so much to trek that they got wrong with STD and thats the saddest thing for me, I watch it for that bright and hopeful future, even DS9 oozed that theme but compromises had to be made to maintain that future, so it felt more real, STD has turned TOS into a dystopian future... how messed up is that? its literally broken TOS by forcing starfleet and the federation to regress technologically and culturally due to the Klingon war and Control, not to mention a sanctioned section 31 as the Federation intel service.... the ramifications of this secret police force are huge, to such an extent that I very much doubt that the writers understand how badly it mangles the federations ideals.
Section 31 was unique in DS9 because they'd never been heard from before. Now, apparently they're everywhere doing whatever they want when they want.
Yodhrin wrote: I don't think that's true, that calibre of writers is still around, they're just not employed by two-bit hacks like Kurtzman.
Honestly I think this sentiment could be expanded to the entire entertainment industry in a lot of ways. Lots of it is brainless, poorly thought out, spectacle. And truly, audiences eat it up. Just look at the Transformers film franchise.
Let's not get too kids-these-days. DS9 and Voyager had their fair share of stinker scripts, and big dumb action movies have existed for as long as special effects have.
Oh to be sure. Voyager holds the distinction of the only Star Trek series to ever retcon an episode out of existence (Threshold). No tears were shed.
I think I've said before that Section 31 was a cool idea that very rapidly wore out it's welcome. They worked in DS9, but DS9 used them sparingly which was the smart thing to do.
For all I despise their invention, DS9 also had the sense to never quite come down definitively on whether "Section 31" was really all Sloane claimed it was, a subsequent show could have quite easily framed them as a recent rogue Starfleet Intelligence op gone wrong. Then they went and shat their pants by including them in Enterprise(apparently they've been wearing those daft shiny black suits for centuries as well...). And now Discovery has just started running around screeching and throwing gak at the walls, and they have their own fleet and special super sekrit combadges and half of Starfleet seems to know they exist.
Ugh. Just imagine if there were actual Trek people in charge of the franchise - we could have had a series(probably one or two seasons only) set in the wake of the Dominon War featuring a Starfleet Intelligence unit tasked with bringing down the remnants of 31, and used it to explore how Starfleet comes to terms with, moves past, and even if I had my way repudiates to a great extent what they became and how they acted during the war. A counterpoint to Sisko's "I CAN live with it", a whole series that says "damnit, no, you shouldn't be able to live with it, we're meant to be better than that". And then that done, you could have a show post-war, post-Voyager, that gets back to the show's roots - either have the Federation's first proper post-treaty explorations of the Gamma Quadrant, or maybe adapt(loosely) the Full Circle novels where a fleet of experimental slipstream ships go out to the Delta Quadrant to retrace Voyager's route but do proper exploring this time, or any number of other things.
Yodhrin wrote: I don't think that's true, that calibre of writers is still around, they're just not employed by two-bit hacks like Kurtzman.
Honestly I think this sentiment could be expanded to the entire entertainment industry in a lot of ways. Lots of it is brainless, poorly thought out, spectacle. And truly, audiences eat it up. Just look at the Transformers film franchise.
Let's not get too kids-these-days. DS9 and Voyager had their fair share of stinker scripts, and big dumb action movies have existed for as long as special effects have.
Agreed Voyager had very many awful episodes - lets have a entire episode set in a boxing ring......yeah no.
DS9 i really enjoy but it also had poor episodes as did Next Gen (many more terrible eps) and OS. Enterprise had plenty too - especially the series ender.
If they had done Section 31 as they had been in DS9 - could have been interesting, covert ops doing stuff that needs doing (see Special Circumstances in the Culture Uinverse) but the writters in Season 2 just have no concept of subtle. They should have been in plain clothes or a different uniform very time a character was seen - does MI6 or the CIA have day to day uniforms?
Have the Empress (I assume she is chrage now) scheme and ploy her way to the top rather than become just another fawning pawn of Burnham.
I think they problem with Disco season 2 was the overwhelming obession with one character and the universe revolving around her. Also as the series went on, it just got more and more sloppy and poorly written. Scenes had little or no connection to each other, characters within scenes often made no sense by their presence (deeply irriating Tedious Tilly) or their absence.
They didn't even go for flat out action - it wa just a salvish biopic on part of the life of the God Michael Burnham
Ugh. Just imagine if there were actual Trek people in charge of the franchise - we could have had a series(probably one or two seasons only) set in the wake of the Dominon War featuring a Starfleet Intelligence unit tasked with bringing down the remnants of 31, and used it to explore how Starfleet comes to terms with, moves past, and even if I had my way repudiates to a great extent what they became and how they acted during the war. A counterpoint to Sisko's "I CAN live with it", a whole series that says "damnit, no, you shouldn't be able to live with it, we're meant to be better than that". And then that done, you could have a show post-war, post-Voyager, that gets back to the show's roots - either have the Federation's first proper post-treaty explorations of the Gamma Quadrant, or maybe adapt(loosely) the Full Circle novels where a fleet of experimental slipstream ships go out to the Delta Quadrant to retrace Voyager's route but do proper exploring this time, or any number of other things.
Sigh.
That would have been amazing.
I was so hopeful at the end of Disco, I thought Burnam was gone and we would now follow Pike and crew. The news that there will be more Disco has been quite disappointing.
Yodhrin wrote: I don't think that's true, that calibre of writers is still around, they're just not employed by two-bit hacks like Kurtzman.
Honestly I think this sentiment could be expanded to the entire entertainment industry in a lot of ways. Lots of it is brainless, poorly thought out, spectacle. And truly, audiences eat it up. Just look at the Transformers film franchise.
Aint that the truth, we do get lucky sometimes and get some good films and series, but they are so rare, a very good example of this is Sense8, Stazynski took SJW culture and tropes and actually made a damn good show with a strong script and great characters, STD took the same tropes and culture and made an utter crap show, which is doubly bad as Trek has always had that kind of thing in it and has usually done a damn good job at social commentary, even if its a bit on the nose sometimes with the half black and white aliens (great episode).
There is so much to trek that they got wrong with STD and thats the saddest thing for me, I watch it for that bright and hopeful future, even DS9 oozed that theme but compromises had to be made to maintain that future, so it felt more real, STD has turned TOS into a dystopian future... how messed up is that? its literally broken TOS by forcing starfleet and the federation to regress technologically and culturally due to the Klingon war and Control, not to mention a sanctioned section 31 as the Federation intel service.... the ramifications of this secret police force are huge, to such an extent that I very much doubt that the writers understand how badly it mangles the federations ideals.
Section 31 was unique in DS9 because they'd never been heard from before. Now, apparently they're everywhere doing whatever they want when they want.
Ya, like they have their own fleet. Even in Star Trek into Darkness they still had to keep their Super Dreadnought on the down low. And then that Tyler guy is just walking around in a Starfleet uniform even though he's a completely out in the open Section 31 agent. Also, for a while there Pike was taking orders from Leland. Like no Starfleet Captain is beholden to take orders from anyone in Section 31. They're not even officially sanctioned organization. Starfleet Captains are only obligated to follow the orders of Burnham.
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Yodhrin wrote: For all I despise their invention, DS9 also had the sense to never quite come down definitively on whether "Section 31" was really all Sloane claimed it was, a subsequent show could have quite easily framed them as a recent rogue Starfleet Intelligence op gone wrong. Then they went and shat their pants by including them in Enterprise(apparently they've been wearing those daft shiny black suits for centuries as well...). And now Discovery has just started running around screeching and throwing gak at the walls, and they have their own fleet and special super sekrit combadges and half of Starfleet seems to know they exist.
Ugh. Just imagine if there were actual Trek people in charge of the franchise - we could have had a series(probably one or two seasons only) set in the wake of the Dominon War featuring a Starfleet Intelligence unit tasked with bringing down the remnants of 31, and used it to explore how Starfleet comes to terms with, moves past, and even if I had my way repudiates to a great extent what they became and how they acted during the war. A counterpoint to Sisko's "I CAN live with it", a whole series that says "damnit, no, you shouldn't be able to live with it, we're meant to be better than that". And then that done, you could have a show post-war, post-Voyager, that gets back to the show's roots - either have the Federation's first proper post-treaty explorations of the Gamma Quadrant, or maybe adapt(loosely) the Full Circle novels where a fleet of experimental slipstream ships go out to the Delta Quadrant to retrace Voyager's route but do proper exploring this time, or any number of other things.
Sigh.
Yes! That is exactly what I wanted for a new Trek show. Normal Trekking with an overarching storyline about the battle between the Federation's idealism and Section 31's pragmatism with the former winning in the end (this is Star Trek isn't it?).
I'm going to think of it as "when Starfleet feels the need to do something shady/out of the ordinary, it calls it Section 31" with no continuity between different iterations.
The upcoming Picard show will be on Amazon Prime outside of North America. Lol, yet again those of us in the US are screwed the hardest by CBS All Access. I have a subscription to both Netflix and Amazon Prime but I'd either have to buy VPN access or CBS All Access to watch. It's a good thing that I'm not particularly keen on STD so can wait till Picard is over to binge both during a free week preview.
Ah well, that's another nail in Netflix's coffin for me. With Disney+, it's pretty much just Disco I'm watching Netflix for. And that's one I'm happy to wait until I can binge.
So apparently the new series will simply be call Star Trek: Picard.
I kind of simply "bleh"-ed at this news and then I saw that they hit one of my secret wishes and made it a reality. Alison Pill will be on the show. Long as she doesn't get offed and gets a chance to flex her acting muscles, I may have just been sweet talked into getting All Access.
warboss wrote: The upcoming Picard show will be on Amazon Prime outside of North America. Lol, yet again those of us in the US are screwed the hardest by CBS All Access. I have a subscription to both Netflix and Amazon Prime but I'd either have to buy VPN access or CBS All Access to watch. It's a good thing that I'm not particularly keen on STD so can wait till Picard is over to binge both during a free week preview.
Yeah... I'm all for a psychological exploration of a great character, but... the people making this know that psychological exploration stories don't necessitate grim scenery, brooding dialogue, and characters overcoming depression, right? You can totally do deep character exploration without heroic BSOD. Honestly, doing psychological exploration through BSOD is like the laziest most uninventive way of doing it.
This series continues the trend of convincing me the people currently developing Star Trek don't actually like Star Trek and wish they were working on some other franchise.
The crappy CGI robots don't really add anything. I assume they were added in at the last minute. "How will they know it's the future if we don't have a flying thing".
We kind of know who Picard is because of TNG. I'm not sure what else can possibly be said. The films only really detracted from it all and I can't imagine this fairing any better.
The only thing I could perhaps see him being so broken about is losing his old crew, perhaps they are all in command of their own ships when Romulus is destroyed. I mean I hope that's explained better too. I'm salty that they are still going with JJ timeline.
Watched with sound off...um is that Star Trek or a Napa Valley winery commercial. I now have the urge to go to the Steiner Ranch steakhouse, finish a steak and watch the sunset with a nice Port.
Too early to tell. About the only thing that I can say from the "leaked" set images is that, unlike STD, the uniforms are ok. They're different but still reminiscent/inspired by the post-TNG ones similar to both variants of the JJverse uniforms were to TOS. At least they haven't screwed that up (yet).
Compel wrote: Anyone else get the feeling that this is going to be Logan level of depressing television but IN SPAAAAACCCCEEEEE.
If it were anything like Logan, I'd probably be okay with it cause Logan knew how the manage itself well. We could only hope to give Picard that same kind of send off, even if the tone is out of wack with the rest of Star Trek.
LordofHats wrote:Yeah... I'm all for a psychological exploration of a great character, but... the people making this know that psychological exploration stories don't necessitate grim scenery, brooding dialogue, and characters overcoming depression, right? You can totally do deep character exploration without heroic BSOD. Honestly, doing psychological exploration through BSOD is like the laziest most uninventive way of doing it.
This series continues the trend of convincing me the people currently developing Star Trek don't actually like Star Trek and wish they were working on some other franchise.
BSOD? Is this one of those TVTropes things that people who quote it think that everyone else had the time and boredom to memorize that entire site?
I have no idea what to think of this based on the trailer and the interviews thus far, but I'm not having the happiest feeling...
Just Tony wrote: BSOD? Is this one of those TVTropes things that people who quote it think that everyone else had the time and boredom to memorize that entire site?
It predates TVTropes like most things, though the term itself literally comes from "Blue Screen of Death" and refers to characters (namely the heroes) habit of reacting to shocking events by shutting down and withdrawing. Like for example, giving up on Star Fleet. What on earth would ever make Captain "Let me preach to you now our virtues" Picard ever give up on Star Fleet when being assimilated, torn down a dozen times only to say "feth you" I believe, and all the other stuff he experienced didn't? It just kind of stretches my willingness to be interested because it feels completely out of place with the character and like a choice that was made just so they could set a "dark and gritty" tone because that's the cliche with "psychological" stories written by people with limited creativity.
I have no idea what to think of this based on the trailer and the interviews thus far, but I'm not having the happiest feeling...
I mean, we knew this was coming. It was never going to be anything else given Kurtzman's track record and the talent puddle that CBS presently deigns to call a writer's room.
Looks like they're using the JJVerse "Countdown" comic uniforms, which are at least better than STDs.
I'll reserve judgement until I've seen it - and I'll be waiting to do that all in one go, better to rip the band aid off - but nothing we've seen or heard as of yet indicates this is going to appeal.
What really sticks in the craw is Kurtzman trying to evoke Roddenberry to sell this concept as somehow being in-keeping with Trek's previous spirit of optimism. Jog on you hack. This is the trouble with execs like Kurtzman, they see an IP as just a collection of bits that can be stripped down, rearranged, and then stapled back together again - "It's got phasers and com badges and the actor who played Picard is in it and he's playing a character called Picard, what are you nerds whinging about?!".
If STD season 1 has taught me anything, all you need to do is to include some classic bridge beep and boop sounds combined with a tiny handful of retrolooking props like phasers and communicators and you've maintained continuity as much as you need to. You're then free to discard everything else and claim you're in the same timeline.
Wow, they really stepped up their production values for that video. I wonder if that set (doesn't look like a green screen albeit I'm looking on a mobile device) will be a permanent addition.
Gael Knight wrote: The crappy CGI robots don't really add anything. I assume they were added in at the last minute. "How will they know it's the future if we don't have a flying thing".
We kind of know who Picard is because of TNG. I'm not sure what else can possibly be said. The films only really detracted from it all and I can't imagine this fairing any better.
The only thing I could perhaps see him being so broken about is losing his old crew, perhaps they are all in command of their own ships when Romulus is destroyed. I mean I hope that's explained better too. I'm salty that they are still going with JJ timeline.
I don't think its the JJ timeline. The destruction of Romulus happened in the "Prime" timeline. It's only an altered universe if Vulcan has not existed for hundreds of year before this series. That's how we'll know.
Gael Knight wrote: The crappy CGI robots don't really add anything. I assume they were added in at the last minute. "How will they know it's the future if we don't have a flying thing".
We kind of know who Picard is because of TNG. I'm not sure what else can possibly be said. The films only really detracted from it all and I can't imagine this fairing any better.
The only thing I could perhaps see him being so broken about is losing his old crew, perhaps they are all in command of their own ships when Romulus is destroyed. I mean I hope that's explained better too. I'm salty that they are still going with JJ timeline.
I am salty about that too Gael. They LITERALLY had a treasure trove, a freaking dragon hoard of golden lore laying at their footsteps after DS9/VOY rapped up, but instead have spent the better part of 18 years rehashing prequels to prequels. Playing cannon rearrangement with time travel and blowing their goo all over JJ Abrams gakky trilogy. I won't even mention the horror show that is STD.
Gael Knight wrote: The crappy CGI robots don't really add anything. I assume they were added in at the last minute. "How will they know it's the future if we don't have a flying thing".
We kind of know who Picard is because of TNG. I'm not sure what else can possibly be said. The films only really detracted from it all and I can't imagine this fairing any better.
The only thing I could perhaps see him being so broken about is losing his old crew, perhaps they are all in command of their own ships when Romulus is destroyed. I mean I hope that's explained better too. I'm salty that they are still going with JJ timeline.
I don't think its the JJ timeline. The destruction of Romulus happened in the "Prime" timeline. It's only an altered universe if Vulcan has not existed for hundreds of year before this series. That's how we'll know.
JJ timeline, Prime timeline, either way it's not the proper timeline. STD is stated as being Prime, which means Prime is not the setting that contained the shows & films that comprised Trek prior to the JJVerse(because even an Olympic level mental-gymnast will struggle to reconcile all this & more with Trek as-was). The idea of "Prime" is essentially an attempt to muddy the waters by creating a version of the original Trek setting that they can modify at-will while still pretending it's all part of the same continuity. Prime as a concept only exists because the JJVerse exists, so I think it's fair to view them as part & parcel.
The simplest way to tell is the uniforms - any depictions of the Picard time period prior to the JJVerse that I can recall used the All Good Things uniforms. This depiction uses a new design that's a hybrid of the Countdown comics(a JJVerse adjunct) and the Voyager/early-DS9 appearance.
Gael Knight wrote: The crappy CGI robots don't really add anything. I assume they were added in at the last minute. "How will they know it's the future if we don't have a flying thing".
We kind of know who Picard is because of TNG. I'm not sure what else can possibly be said. The films only really detracted from it all and I can't imagine this fairing any better.
The only thing I could perhaps see him being so broken about is losing his old crew, perhaps they are all in command of their own ships when Romulus is destroyed. I mean I hope that's explained better too. I'm salty that they are still going with JJ timeline.
I don't think its the JJ timeline. The destruction of Romulus happened in the "Prime" timeline. It's only an altered universe if Vulcan has not existed for hundreds of year before this series. That's how we'll know.
JJ timeline, Prime timeline, either way it's not the proper timeline. STD is stated as being Prime, which means Prime is not the setting that contained the shows & films that comprised Trek prior to the JJVerse(because even an Olympic level mental-gymnast will struggle to reconcile all this & more with Trek as-was). The idea of "Prime" is essentially an attempt to muddy the waters by creating a version of the original Trek setting that they can modify at-will while still pretending it's all part of the same continuity. Prime as a concept only exists because the JJVerse exists, so I think it's fair to view them as part & parcel.
The simplest way to tell is the uniforms - any depictions of the Picard time period prior to the JJVerse that I can recall used the All Good Things uniforms. This depiction uses a new design that's a hybrid of the Countdown comics(a JJVerse adjunct) and the Voyager/early-DS9 appearance.
I get that you don't like the newer Star Trek. I'm just saying in universe there's two timelines now and I think this new series is in the original Timeline. If your just using "JJVerse" as shorthand for new-crappy-trek then we're talking about two different things.
You know, since the last time this came up I've done on/off research to hunt various things down, and in that something has occurred to me.
And as an early conclusion, I'd say CBS has really kind of brought the fan confusion and varied negative responses on themselves.
CBS doesn't really use the phrase "Prime Timeline" much. "Prime Universe" got coined in 2016 and that was said by one person from CBS as part of a blog post for Star Trek Online when STO did a crossover event around the time Beyond released that also identified the JJ films as belonging to the "Kelvin Timeline" which was also the only time that either phrase was ever uttered in any "official" capacity. And I'd add that even the phrases themselves originate in the fandom, Prime Timeline coming from the 09 films end credits (Identifying Nimoy's character as "Prime Spock") and the Kelvin Timeline coming from the USS Kelvin which has been assumed as the primary point of divergence in the timelines.
Other than that one instance, I find very few examples of people in CBS using the terms, and it's mostly fans who use it. In fact, the only usage of the term since then I can find is from Discovery where Philippa Georgiou uses the phrase "Prime Universe." Which... doesn't really amount to much? Alternate realities have been a thing in Star Trek since TOS, but continuity between them has never really be relevant "in-universe" and no episode or film has ever directly addressed the subject. CBS generally only even broaches the issue when fans ask, and it's usually vague answers without specific terms being used.
Because of the ambiguity, Memory Alpha doesn't have articles for "Prime Timeline" or "Kelvin Timeline" and only mentions the terms in development and background notes for relevant pages (Universe and Alternate Reality). You have to go to Memory Gamma (the fanon wiki, and everything basically goes there) to actually get a page for the term "Prime Universe."
The only conclusion I can reach is that CBS doesn't really care about canon has Star Trek fans have traditionally understood it. They approach each new entry in the series as a contained thing and only mention matters relating to continuity when addressing fan questions or controversy. Outside of that field, it seems like a non sequitur to them. They don't care, and seem unable to understand why anyone in the fandom cares (though perfectly able to tell that fans are unsatisfied).
The only conclusion I can reach is that there is little concern granted to continuity of canon because CBS doesn't care about continuity of canon. Which kind of begs why any of us should really debate which timeline/universe is which, when (to me at least) it seems really obvious CBS doesn't care about such things outside of trying to placate fan hate (and failing at it).
@lordofhats. Once again, if Vulcan exists then we have confirmation of the two timelines regardless of the name. But yes, it’s possible the New show will never discuss Vulcan or be ambiguous about it.
Also, aside from having it written out in the credits in a movie and also spoken by a character in a show I’m not sure what else they can do to make it canon. As far as I know those are literally the two highest forms of canon in Trek.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: @lordofhats. Once again, if Vulcan exists then we have confirmation of the two timelines regardless of the name. But yes, it’s possible the New show will never discuss Vulcan or be ambiguous about it.
I'm not saying they don't talk about these things.
I'm saying I think they just don't care about consistency and don't think consistency between entries is all that important. Compare for example the broader Transformers franchise, where various runs of merchandise and media are self-contained and rarely care what other runs say/did, but generally employ the same elements in story and characters. EDIT: I.E. The way fans have traditionally approached canon is meaningless to CBS, and CBS isn't approaching the franchise from that perspective.
Gael Knight wrote: The crappy CGI robots don't really add anything. I assume they were added in at the last minute. "How will they know it's the future if we don't have a flying thing".
We kind of know who Picard is because of TNG. I'm not sure what else can possibly be said. The films only really detracted from it all and I can't imagine this fairing any better.
The only thing I could perhaps see him being so broken about is losing his old crew, perhaps they are all in command of their own ships when Romulus is destroyed. I mean I hope that's explained better too. I'm salty that they are still going with JJ timeline.
I don't think its the JJ timeline. The destruction of Romulus happened in the "Prime" timeline. It's only an altered universe if Vulcan has not existed for hundreds of year before this series. That's how we'll know.
JJ timeline, Prime timeline, either way it's not the proper timeline. STD is stated as being Prime, which means Prime is not the setting that contained the shows & films that comprised Trek prior to the JJVerse(because even an Olympic level mental-gymnast will struggle to reconcile all this & more with Trek as-was). The idea of "Prime" is essentially an attempt to muddy the waters by creating a version of the original Trek setting that they can modify at-will while still pretending it's all part of the same continuity. Prime as a concept only exists because the JJVerse exists, so I think it's fair to view them as part & parcel.
The simplest way to tell is the uniforms - any depictions of the Picard time period prior to the JJVerse that I can recall used the All Good Things uniforms. This depiction uses a new design that's a hybrid of the Countdown comics(a JJVerse adjunct) and the Voyager/early-DS9 appearance.
I get that you don't like the newer Star Trek. I'm just saying in universe there's two timelines now and I think this new series is in the original Timeline. If your just using "JJVerse" as shorthand for new-crappy-trek then we're talking about two different things.
But what I am arguing is there are in fact at least three timelines/realities, because STD contains far too many conflicts with pre-JJ Trek to fit into the same world. And if Picard is supposed to share the same timeline as Discovery, then it necessarily can't be part of the same continuity as TNG, because Discovery isn't.
And LordofHats - that may be true, now. It was not true prior to JJTrek, in the sense that even when they fethed about with continuity(chiefly in Enterprise), they at least tried to get things lined up and squared away. Also, CBS modern lack of standards doesn't have any bearing on the validity of people's dislike for that lack.
Also, CBS modern lack of standards doesn't have any bearing on the validity of people's dislike for that lack.
I never said it did. I suggested, why should any of us waste time debating timelines when (maybe) there aren't canon timelines because CBS isn't bothering with that kind of canon?
And frankly I could still debate canon inconsistency and how overblown and fan whiny Discovery's are all day, but I just don't think it matters. I think CBS is approaching canon with a completely different angle and we'd all just be crying about spilled milk like babies. Really, all that should matter now is, does the writing suck? Discovery? Oh hell yes. It's god awful. I won't even bother with S3.
Picard? I am increasingly less hopeful with each new bit that comes out for it. The first reveals reminding me of Renegades and everything awful about it. The second just feels completely out of keeping with Picard's character. There was a reddit post I read somewhere where someone proposed Picard left Star Fleet because he feels responsible for the destruction of Romulus. All Good Things showed Romulus under Klingon control in 2395, so not destroyed in 2387, and that all the time foolery in that episode maybe leaves Picard feeling responsible for the planet's destruction and the deaths of billions. And that could be an interesting angle with a great tie into TNG, but that's also not the kind of writing we've seen from CBS.
About the only hope spot at all is Patrick Steward and the ardent wish that the man would never return to the character for a gakky script, but actors often have very different takes on a project than the viewing audience so...
The script Stewart read in preproduction and the shooting script might be as different as Sonak before he beamed aboard the Enterprise and Sonak after he beamed aboard the Enterprise.
While speaking with Vulture about a very different role- Charlie Manx on AMC’s horror miniseries NOS4A2– Quinto said he’d still like to go back to the Enterprise again.
It’s been a few years since we last saw you play Spock. Is Star Trek 4 in limbo? There were at one point reported to be multiple scripts in play.
Yeah, I think there were like three. I don’t know what’s happening with that, and I’m trying to figure out what, if anything, will be the future for it. I feel glad that the franchise is having its own life continuing on [with Star Trek: Discovery] and my hope is that we’ll also get to go back and play those roles again. But there’s no telling right now if it’ll happen or not.
doubt they can afford the cast now anyway TBH.
apparently Spiner/Data.someone ? might be in it, possibly as a guest star.
When Star Trek: Picard premieres later in 2019, one of the biggest Next Generation questions it could finally answer is whether B-4 ever finished his transformation into Data. The new CBS All-Access series starring Patrick Stewart as the iconic former Captain of the Starship Enterprise will be fans' first glimpse into the 24th century since Star Trek: Nemesis in 2002, the same film that introduced Data's mentally inferior android doppelganger.
Data was a core character of Star Trek: The Next Generation (arguably the second most important character after Picard himself) for its seven-season run on TV and its four movie spinoffs. Played by Brent Spiner, he was an android created by Dr. Noonien Soong along with a malevolent prior model named Lore, although the brilliant and eccentric cyberneticist also built three failed prototypes. B-4 (also played by Spiner) was one of those prototypes and not built with the sophisticated positronic brain that Lore and Data possessed. He was used as a spy by Shinzon, Praetor of the Romulan Empire and clone of Captain Jean-Luc Picard, and planted on the U.S.S. Enterprise-E. Prior to Data sacrificing himself to save his ship, he copied his memories into B-4, hoping that would help his android "brother" evolve; though B-4 couldn't assimilate Data's memories, by the end of the film, he was singing one of Data's favorite songs, hinting that the beloved character would one day re-emerge.
Star Trek: Picard will pick up the story roughly 15 years after the end of Star Trek: Nemesis and reintroduce the ex-Admiral Picard living a life markedly different from his legendary exploits as commander of the Enterprise. From the tantalizing tidbits offered in the Star Trek: Picard teaser, Jean-Luc is now retired at his family vineyard in La Barre, France after "the unimaginable" happened; that unimaginable appears to be the destruction of Romulus. While the new series will be focused on Picard and a new crew, fans are eager to know what happened to the rest of TNG's characters - including the fate of Data/B-4.
Technically, Star Trek has already provided an answer to what happened to B-4/Data in the 2009 comic book miniseries Star Trek: Countdown, which set up the first J.J. Abrams Star Trek movie. This revealed that Geordi La Forge installed Data's emotion chip to B-4's neural net, allowing his full personality to emerge. He was now Captain of the Enterprise. However, the countless ancillary Star Trek novels and comics aren't considered canon, and while Star Trek: Discovery has pulled from tie-in stories, that's no guarantee future TV or movie canon won't change it.
Will this be something Star Trek: Picard eventually resolves? Brent Spiner hasn't been linked to the show in any way; the only Next Generation alum besides Stewart involved is Jonathan Frakes, and that's only as an episode director. And if he were to appear - as B-4 or Data - Picard would have to accommodate the fact that the actor has aged (and no amount of makeup could hide that Data already looked significantly older in Star Trek: Nemesis). That said, it could be argued that, while Dr. Soong's android creations are technically supposed to be immortal, as B-4 was a prototype his exterior also ages (similar to Arnold Schwarzenegger in later Terminator films).
It's a pity in a way that Data was attempting to become more human - otherwise just wire his brain up to a starship, and have Brent Spiner just do the voice acting. No makeup or CGI required.
Alex Kurtman has been fired from Star trek allegedly due to bad pre screenings of Picard.
And the chief architect of Bad trek JJ abrahms is gone too, bad reboot are leaving with him and thus so are secret hideout in all likely hood, the best Star Trek news in a long time.
Alex Kurtman has been fired from Star trek allegedly due to bad pre screenings of Picard.
And the chief architect of Bad trek JJ abrahms is gone too, bad reboot are leaving with him and thus so are secret hideout in all likely hood, the best Star Trek news in a long time.
It's a rumor reported initially by the Nerdrotic youtube channel supposedly from an inside source and repeated by the rest of the youtubers who aren't fans of STD. I'd take it with a grain of salt given that the anti-STD youtube creator community was reporting doom and gloom for months right up until the annoucnement of the renewal of STD for season 3. I'm no fan of the show but the source(s) that they all use/share hasn't been accurate.
STD is trash but the hatedom that surrounds it is equally trashy.
Granted, removing Kurtman probably isn't the worst idea. I find JJ gets undeserved hate, but I've seen nothing worthwhile come out of Kurtman and the man seems inept in a lot of ways to manage a big project.
LordofHats wrote: STD is trash but the hatedom that surrounds it is equally trashy.
Granted, removing Kurtman probably isn't the worst idea. I find JJ gets undeserved hate, but I've seen nothing worthwhile come out of Kurtman and the man seems inept in a lot of ways to manage a big project.
As someone who genuinely likes JJ Trek I wholeheartedly agree that the hate is undeserved. As a Transformers Fan that watched Kurtzman destroy a franchise I care a LOT about, I'm elated he's gone.
LordofHats wrote: STD is trash but the hatedom that surrounds it is equally trashy.
Granted, removing Kurtman probably isn't the worst idea. I find JJ gets undeserved hate, but I've seen nothing worthwhile come out of Kurtman and the man seems inept in a lot of ways to manage a big project.
So is this guy involved with Discovery - I realy enjoyed Season One and was very disapointed by Season 2, I also like the new ST films (far better than Next Gen) and love the first Transformers film.
Will him not being there change anything in Star Trek media-land?
Kurtman being (allegedly) gone is great news as it will hopefully mean JJ trek is dead, the alt universe etc. has ruined Star Trek for a long time now and the spillover into STD caused it to suck too.
Now with a bit of luck we may get a return to real Trek and a sequel to Voyager rather than yet another prequel no one wants or asked for.
I'll believe he's gone when a press release says so.
As to who he is: Kurtzman is the guy who is the current executive producer for the Star Trek franchise, and has rightfully garnered a lot of hate imo for how he's handled criticism and development of STD. If he's gone, I can't see how it could make anything worse. One of those there's really nowhere to go but up kind of guys.
Formosa wrote: Kurtman being (allegedly) gone is great news as it will hopefully mean JJ trek is dead, the alt universe etc. has ruined Star Trek for a long time now and the spillover into STD caused it to suck too.
Now with a bit of luck we may get a return to real Trek and a sequel to Voyager rather than yet another prequel no one wants or asked for.
Ughh who wants a sequal to Voyager - why?
Which of the previous shows/films would you say are "real" trek?"
Many of the series have good and bad stuff, I favour OS and DS9 being far superior to Next Gen, Voyager and Enterprise but you may feel the opposite?
I have not watched The Orvil but apparently many consider that more Trek than say STD?
LordofHats wrote: I'll believe he's gone when a press release says so.
As to who he is: Kurtzman is the guy who is the current executive producer for the Star Trek franchise, and has rightfully garnered a lot of hate imo for how he's handled criticism and development of STD. If he's gone, I can't see how it could make anything worse. One of those there's really nowhere to go but up kind of guys.
Formosa wrote: Kurtman being (allegedly) gone is great news as it will hopefully mean JJ trek is dead, the alt universe etc. has ruined Star Trek for a long time now and the spillover into STD caused it to suck too.
Now with a bit of luck we may get a return to real Trek and a sequel to Voyager rather than yet another prequel no one wants or asked for.
Ughh who wants a sequal to Voyager - why?
Which of the previous shows/films would you say are "real" trek?"
Many of the series have good and bad stuff, I favour OS and DS9 being far superior to Next Gen, Voyager and Enterprise but you may feel the opposite?
I have not watched The Orvil but apparently many consider that more Trek than say STD?
Sorry I should have been much clearer, not a sequel to voyager, but a sequel to the voyager timeline, so continuing after voyager got home with some other crew.
As for real trek, everything up the the first "star trek" movie JJ made and created an alternate timeline to play with, if people like it, fair enough, the vast majority of star trek fans do not like it.
We Agree on OS and DS9 being far superior to next gen etc.
and yes a lot of people call it Star Trek Orvil, likely because so many trek writers work for the orville teams, dunno.
STD got that 82% for many reasons, I know a lot of people who think its the "diversity score" but that is BS in my book, its trek, that is a trek thing and has always been, I reckon the 82% Rotten tommatoes score is purely down to access media and good old classic corruption of the review "journalist" industry.... god I hope STD series 3 is cancelled....
Alex Kurtman has been fired from Star trek allegedly due to bad pre screenings of Picard.
And the chief architect of Bad trek JJ abrahms is gone too, bad reboot are leaving with him and thus so are secret hideout in all likely hood, the best Star Trek news in a long time.
Considering he literally posted updates to all the shows they have planed 1 hour ago, I find this claim to be highly suspect.
Formosa wrote: STD got that 82% for many reasons, I know a lot of people who think its the "diversity score" but that is BS in my book, its trek, that is a trek thing and has always been, I reckon the 82% Rotten tommatoes score is purely down to access media and good old classic corruption of the review "journalist" industry.... god I hope STD series 3 is cancelled....
If you were to drop the "Star Trek" from the name, STD would probably be beloved. Almost everything I hate about I hate solely in the light of it being a Star Trek series. The critics having a higher opinion of the show doesn't surprise me. Most professional critics don't get the luxury of being fans of anything, and don't really go into most things with super specific genre expectations. I wouldn't be shocked if more than a few had never even seen prior TV series. You can see the reverse in Legendary's Godzilla films. Critics liked the 2014 one better, but fans got divided over how the movie didn't feature more monsters. Que the sequel this year, and fans are receiving the film much better because it has more monsters while critics are less happy with it because the plot is thin between the spectacle.
What fans want and what critics want are different. It's probably a good case for how aggregate scores are generally not useful for deciding whether or not a specific person will like a movie compared to finding a specific critic whose tastes match your own.
Alex Kurtman has been fired from Star trek allegedly due to bad pre screenings of Picard.
And the chief architect of Bad trek JJ abrahms is gone too, bad reboot are leaving with him and thus so are secret hideout in all likely hood, the best Star Trek news in a long time.
Considering he literally posted updates to all the shows they have planed 1 hour ago, I find this claim to be highly suspect.
Compel wrote: Is this anything to do with Abrams and Bad Robot now being more heavily involved with Warner Brothers and DC?
Now? I know there's big news about Abrams nearing a deal with Warner for half a billion, but that relationship isn't new. They've been doing TV shows with Warner Bros. for more than a decade now. The company's history, and Abrams' career, started with making TV shows for Warner vis Touchstone studios way back before Disney really stepped up its TV game. I don't think either have ever worked with DC.
EDIT: And wtf? Looking something up, I stumble across two things. Bad Robot elected not to renew their development contract with Paramount last year (expires in 2020), and Alex Kurtzman doesn't work for Bad Robot anymore. He started his own company, which is the company that is developing STD, and Picard. Bad Robot is completely uninvolved *checks Memory Alpha, Wikipedia, and the STD credits* yeah. Bad Robot isn't credited for STD anywhere. How the hell have we missed this in the 4-5 now mentions of Bad Robot in relation to STD and Picard?
Maybe some sort of exclusivity deal?
Exclusivity isn't the right word. Scarcity of talent would be more accurate. Making big budget production requires big budgets. Development deals get signed to share the financial burden and secure talent because both are limited in the industry.
If Bad Robot and JJ feel like they're everywhere, it's because no amount of internet bitching erases the mountains of money they keep making for their partners and investors. Even their worst works are usually profitable ventures.
Alex Kurtzman Gives Updates On CBS Star Trek TV Franchise
In a new “Crew Call” podcast for Deadline Hollywood, the overseer of all things Star Trek on TV, Alex Kurtzman, gave updates on every currently announced project for TV.
Star Trek projects in the pipeline
Last year, CBS TV Studios president David Stapf made a mention of having “something on all the time on All Access.” Kurtzman spoke to that idea, saying:
It takes really a year from writing to finished product, it’s sort of like animation, because you have to factor in about 7 months of CG work and then 4 months of prep, especially if you’re building sets for a new show.
It’s not like they’re all going to be on the air at one time. If David [Stapf] wants a show always [on], I have to plan two or three years out from now. The goal is not to have them on top of each other. Nor is it to rush anything out when it’s not ready.
Kurtzman on growing the fanbase:
When I went to CBS and I said, “I think you have a universe here that is very under-utilized, and a fan base that I think is hungry for a lot more.” And I walked them through the plan of what I saw for the next five to ten years of Trek.
Part of it was, kind of, premised on the idea that it was going to take time. What I said was, “Don’t expect us to put the first thing out, and suddenly, you know, you’ll have 100 million new fans. That’s not gonna happen.” Trek has been around for too long for that to happen — but what we do have is new generations, and what I can tell you is that ‘Trek,’ in general, finds people when they’re about between nine and twelve.
It’s never reached younger than that — it’s never tried to, and to me that’s a hugely missed opportunity, especially because what you’re really trying to do is influence hearts and minds with really positive messages — messages about who we can be as a species and as people and what our future is. So why not start young, you know? And not for a cynical reason. Not because you know, “hey, lets sell more toys,” but because if you really want Star Trek to reach people, then you’ve got to start young.
And this is where I guess the Star Wars influence on me really mattered, because as a kid at four years old, I could imagine myself starting up with a twin suns of Tatooine and wondering what my life was. Trek didn’t give me that same thing — it gave me Wesley Crusher, it gave me different characters, but again, those are older characters.
But we are definitely seeing just metric proof that the fan base is growing, and it’s growing younger — and yet, we’re keeping our current fans, and that’s great.
Star Trek: Picard
While the show is named Picard, Kurtzman stressed that the idea of a family, of a ship’s crew, is still very much at the heart of the new show:
It’s something that has been baked into the DNA of Picard — yes, obviously Patrick, it’s Patrick’s show — we have an unbelievable cast. And you know, the thing that I loved about the Next Gen cast is that you really could have focused any episode on any of them.
I would say the same about our cast now, that it’s such an incredibly brilliant group of actors, [that] are given such amazing things to do. Without spoiling anything, I think that you will feel that.
“A really wonderful give-and-take” with Stewart
We spent a lot of time with Patrick, and you know he’s incredibly brilliant just as a human, and very warm, and obviously he knows Jean-Luc Picard better than anybody — and you know, he was really the one who from the outset said, “I don’t want to do this unless we’re breaking new ground. I don’t want to just play the character I played, why come back to that? We did that already.”
And so it’s been a really wonderful give-and-take in our collaboration with Patrick where he very quickly came to trust that we were both going to do exactly what he said in taking Picard to a new place, but also — and he doesn’t look at himself this way — we’re reverent of him, you know? He’s Patrick Stewart. When we’re in a room with him, his opinion really matters to us, and his happiness really matters to us, and ultimately, we couldn’t do this show the way we’re doing it if he wasn’t excited about it and excited to play it.
A story that honors the character
I think we’ve found a story that honors everything that people love about the character, but in ways that are not what you expect — and yet, become more and more familiar as the show goes [on].
A lot has happened to Jean-Luc Picard in the intervening years. There’s been a lot going on and he’s had to deal with some new things, he’s had to deal with some old things, and both of those things kind of come colliding together. He’s made choices that he’s not necessarily feeling great about — and yet I think the audience will understand exactly why he made them.
Discovery and its spin-offs
Discovery season 3
Writing on season three of Discovery is moving along at a fast pace:
We are on episode five of Season 3 of Discovery. We’re far along.
More Short Treks
As previously announced, there would be more Short Treks, two of which are cartoons, along with four live action shorts.
We’re doing six more of them. Two of them are animated, and the two that we’re doing that are animated are unlike our two animated shows. What I love about the Short Treks is that to me they are an experimental training ground, and a place to experiment with different things. Directors who we’ve never worked with before, tones we’ve never tried before.
Michael Giacchino is doing one of the animated shorts and Olatunde Osunsanmi is doing another one in the animated shorts and he’s our main director on Discovery. And again, different animation styles, totally different tones. Aimed at kids, I would say, more than adults, those two.
Section 31 show
As previously stated, the intention is for the Section 31 show to go into production right after season 3 of Discovery. Kurtzman briefly touched on the idea, reiterating what had been said before:
Erika [Lippoldt] and Boey [Kim], who are two of our writers on Discovery, are breaking story on it right now, and the plan is to shoot that the second we’re done with [Discovery] Season 3.
Hears fans about Pike and crew
Anson Mount’s Captain Pike has been a huge success of season 2, with lots of fans asking for more of the Enterprise crew. Kurtzman acknowledged the outpouring of interest from the fans saying:
I would be remiss in saying you’re going to see Spock again on Discovery because we’ve obviously jumped so far into the future that it wouldn’t make sense…. but the the idea of bringing Ethan [Peck] back, and Anson [Mount] and Rebecca [Romijn] and the Enterprise, I mean, we loved it so much, that to find a way to do that is definitely something we’re thinking about a lot.
Animated Trek
While discussing the animated shows, Kurtzman hinted that some members of live action Trek cast may lend their voice to one or more of the animated shows. When asked about if any characters we know my appear in the shows, Kurtzman answered:
It’s mostly new [characters]. There may be some that you know, but it’s mostly new.
Lower Decks
Lower Decks from Mike McMahan was announced in October 2018, and recently hit the milestone of having the first table read for a completed script. Kurtzman described the audience for the show and the general premise:
Both of these [upcoming animated] shows are a love letter to Star Trek. They’re targeted at very different groups. Mike’s show is really for kids, I would say, from 11 to 70. [Laughs]
What I love so much about the way Mike is doing is planning things. What would typically be the “A” story on any Star Trek episode is happening in the background — like huge, crazy, crazy gak is going on in the background and that’s super peripheral to the story that you’re actually focusing on. No show has ever really done that before.
Nickelodeon Show
Officially announced in April, the show is developed by Emmy Award-winning brother duo Kevin and Dan Hageman. Kurtzman gave an update on the progress of the child-focused ‘toon:
I won’t announce the name of the Nickelodeon show, but that’s a really different show [from Lower Decks].
That’s a show that’s for kids, younger. Full CG animation. It’s going to be incredibly cinematic. We just started seeing [story]boards this week. It looks like, wow. It’s on par with Love, Death, and Robots in terms of beauty and lighting and cinema, so it’s a a really different feel, and Nickelodeon has been wildly supportive and I think very excited to bring a new energy to TV, you know, in animation.
Formosa wrote: STD got that 82% for many reasons, I know a lot of people who think its the "diversity score" but that is BS in my book, its trek, that is a trek thing and has always been, I reckon the 82% Rotten tommatoes score is purely down to access media and good old classic corruption of the review "journalist" industry.... god I hope STD series 3 is cancelled....
If you were to drop the "Star Trek" from the name, STD would probably be beloved. Almost everything I hate about I hate solely in the light of it being a Star Trek series. The critics having a higher opinion of the show doesn't surprise me. Most professional critics don't get the luxury of being fans of anything, and don't really go into most things with super specific genre expectations. I wouldn't be shocked if more than a few had never even seen prior TV series. You can see the reverse in Legendary's Godzilla films. Critics liked the 2014 one better, but fans got divided over how the movie didn't feature more monsters. Que the sequel this year, and fans are receiving the film much better because it has more monsters while critics are less happy with it because the plot is thin between the spectacle.
What fans want and what critics want are different. It's probably a good case for how aggregate scores are generally not useful for deciding whether or not a specific person will like a movie compared to finding a specific critic whose tastes match your own.
I don't know - season 2's complete and cloying obession with a single character was my issue with STD rather than non trekness given the huge variety of shows/films within that sub genre.
I donlt understand the lvoe for Godzilla 2014 given how truely awful the so called characters were in it, the poor plot and lack of actual monster - Skull island was (IMO) a far far superior film in all respects. From what i have seen of the new film - its does not look like I will enjoy so not bothered.
Most critics are obvious fans of styles or show types and are usually as biased as a fan.
Critics are definitely biased, evidence by how well they often receive art house films compared to the general movie public, but that's to be expected. They're professional movie watchers. They're going to find a run of the mill spy thriller dull, or only enjoyable for it's popcorn value. Like how critics bomb Michael Bay's work, but the general movie viewing audience eats that gak up.
As for Kurtzman, he's not going anywhere. He's the sole owner of the company producing Star Trek for Paramount with a five year development deal that gets renewed this year. The only way they get rid of him is if they hire someone else to do the job and I don't see any sign of that happening, especially not with Bad Robot electing not to continue their business relationship with Paramount. This is Midnight's Edge making stuff up again.
The thing to remeber about professional criticism of franchise movies is that they're not reviewing them based on the franchise - how good the continuity from the last one is, or how well they stand up as adaptations of the comic or whatever. For instance, Mark Kermode's review of Infinity War was basically "It'll probably be great if you're a fan of the Marvel films, but I'm not, so it was OK". On the other hand, he was much more positive about Endgame. I wouldn't be surprised if the discrepancy in scores between critics and viewers for ST Discovery is because of that; if one person likes it for what it is, but another marks it down because it's not "proper Star Trek", then you'll get different scores.
I like Discovery, as it happens - season one moreso than 2 - but even though I'm generally positive towards Star Trek, I don't care about the continuity or the tone. As long as each show is reasonably consistent with itself, I don't care if it contradicts another one. I don't need some elaborate headcanon to fit it all together.
IT also requires a fairly comprehensive review of the audience scores.
What sort of feedback is there for the low ones? Is it all kind of the same? Such as Captain Marvel, when a lot (not all by any stretch) just said 'watch Alita Battle Angel instead'. Or 'haven't seen it, but me no like woooman have opnion' etc.
Start to strip those out? As in, people who only came to bash it, and haven't seen it, and see where you end up.
Which is why I agree with Lord of Hats. Ignore numerical scores - they mean nothing and are only there for the lazy. Read reviews and judge from those. Read reviews of films you like and dislike so you can "calibrate" the reviewers against your own preferences.
I mean, some reviewers are just weird. Both the pros and the audience. Giving 1 Star, but actually saying 'I can see why others liked it'. Or ripping into it, yet still giving 3/5.
When the metric itself isn't set, the score becomes inherently meaningless.
Disco has various negative reviews with the term 'woke'. Saying that's not Star Trek, whilst also acknowledging that Star Trek has traditionally somewhat lead the way in terms of cast diversity. That is fundamentally illogical.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I mean, some reviewers are just weird. Both the pros and the audience.
I still remember the one guy from the Guardian who reviewed Overlord, and I'm convinced that he didn't actually watch the movie at all. Then again, hardly anyone did, which is a damn shame. Wolfenstein the movie was pretty good.
I got the same broad feeling about reviews of Terminator Genisys.
Whilst it is a flawed effort, the reviews I read seemed to be coming from a standpoint of 'I don't like this movie, so watched it to find out why'.
Criticising plot hooks for future movies as 'plot holes'. Ragging on this and that to the point where I wondered if we even watched the same movie.
Now don't get me wrong, it's not a great film. And it's not quite a good film. But I'm hesitant to label it a bad film. It's right on the cusp of being functional, and a wasted opportunity.
It just didn't deserve the level of critical drubbing it received in the press.
Whilst it is a flawed effort, the reviews I read seemed to be coming from a standpoint of 'I don't like this movie, so watched it to find out why'.
Criticising plot hooks for future movies as 'plot holes'. Ragging on this and that to the point where I wondered if we even watched the same movie.
Now don't get me wrong, it's not a great film. And it's not quite a good film. But I'm hesitant to label it a bad film. It's right on the cusp of being functional, and a wasted opportunity.
It just didn't deserve the level of critical drubbing it received in the press.
They also tend to very forgiving when a film is not mainstream - oh the characters plot and pace are awful but it has such "vision" and other similar crap.
I get that though. When you've read enough books, seen enough movies, and played enough games, mainstream very quickly becomes dull.
I took a stab at guessing the plot of TLJ before seeing the movie. I used nothing but my knowledge of storytelling, and the toy line to do it. A poster here said I was about eerily close. A friend of mine said I was about 80% right. I went and saw the movie and decided I got all the major plot points correct through sheer guess work.
I often don't give a damn about spoilers, because chances are I'll guess the twists long before they happen even when they're well done. That basically leaves me looking for other things to appreciate in movies and that usually comes down to how well the movie does things that are different from the norm. So I get why critics behave that way. If we did nothing but watch and write about every movie on the planet for a living I suspect we'd all be like that. And Some critics definitely get snobby about it, and they're not worth much unless you're snobby about it to. Others have a much better handle on their biases, and others suck at keeping those in check. It's really all about finding the reviewers who seem to enjoy the things you enjoy and keeping an eye on what they think, cause they're the ones who are gonna be helpful to you, moreso than an aggregate score that achieves 82% because 4/5 of the critics gave the product at least a 3/5 or a 2/3 or a "It's okay" (which is how RT sorts reviews are fresh).
He looked at a given film as a whole, but also as an example of it's genre.
That's a decent way to do it, and the sign of an open mind in my opinion.
For instance, RomComs are most definitely not my bag. So I'm naturally gonna be prejudiced against them. Therefore, I would not be a good reviewers. JR however, would say 'it's got a lot of appeal to fans of the genre, but if that's not you, maybe avoid'.
And on ridiculous reviews? They're pretty damaging overall. See, much as I like Discovery, I get that it's not for everyone. But sadly, there are increasingly organised 'push backs' originating on quagmires such as 4Chan. And the complaint points, as mentioned earlier, just seem daft 'why is a Star Trek cast diverse all of a sudden'.
And that feeds back into those who support the show/film/whatevs, and makes critical opinions seem easy to dismiss.
LordofHats wrote: I get that though. When you've read enough books, seen enough movies, and played enough games, mainstream very quickly becomes dull.
I took a stab at guessing the plot of TLJ before seeing the movie. I used nothing but my knowledge of storytelling, and the toy line to do it. A poster here said I was about eerily close. A friend of mine said I was about 80% right. I went and saw the movie and decided I got all the major plot points correct through sheer guess work.
I often don't give a damn about spoilers, because chances are I'll guess the twists long before they happen even when they're well done. That basically leaves me looking for other things to appreciate in movies and that usually comes down to how well the movie does things that are different from the norm. So I get why critics behave that way. If we did nothing but watch and write about every movie on the planet for a living I suspect we'd all be like that. And Some critics definitely get snobby about it, and they're not worth much unless you're snobby about it to. Others have a much better handle on their biases, and others suck at keeping those in check. It's really all about finding the reviewers who seem to enjoy the things you enjoy and keeping an eye on what they think, cause they're the ones who are gonna be helpful to you, moreso than an aggregate score that achieves 82% because 4/5 of the critics gave the product at least a 3/5 or a 2/3 or a "It's okay" (which is how RT sorts reviews are fresh).
It can however be very annoying when the same things that they take to task one film for they gloss over or ignore in another because "they" consider it "special".
Its bizare that people say about STD being so diverse when so many other sci-fi/fantasy shows are much more so and also don't make a big deal about it (which is as it should be) - also its pretty false in their case - oh look one woman on the show is not slim and athletic - wow - but everyone else is....
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: And the complaint points, as mentioned earlier, just seem daft 'why is a Star Trek cast diverse all of a sudden'.
And that feeds back into those who support the show/film/whatevs, and makes critical opinions seem easy to dismiss.
Is that actually a common complaint though? Because the vast majority of the complaints I've seen in reference to STD that discussed "woke" or diversity tended to focus on the presentation of the show as being somehow unique for its diversity in the context of Trek when that's total nonsense, or how diversity is used to claim a Trek lineage that many folk don't feel is deserved given the tone & content of the actual stories being told and to dismiss criticism along those lines, or bring up the "in your face" aspect of such "woke" television; for all it was a morality play, it was rare to feel you were being moralised at by Trek, a couple of overly worthy TNG and overly written TOS episodes aside, whereas often modern shows are so heavy-handed about The Message they're barely one step beyond having the actors just break character and monologue direct to the camera.
It's also been the case, in my experience at least, that the opposite has been true to at least the same degree - plenty of people were happily pre-dismissing any criticisms of STD before the show had even aired or the criticisms even been made, on the basis that it had a black and female lead character and so naturally any dislike of the show could only possibly be mere crypto-bigotry.
Its bizare that people say about STD being so diverse when so many other sci-fi/fantasy shows are much more so and also don't make a big deal about it (which is as it should be) - also its pretty false in their case - oh look one woman on the show is not slim and athletic - wow - but everyone else is....
Ehhhh no not really, the problem was presentation not "wokeness" or "diversity", you see STD did not do this directly but the "journalists" did it, goes like this
STD is the first trek with such a diverse cast
Fans: Nope, TOS, STTNG, DS9, Voyager and Enterprise all had very diverse casts
STD is the first black lead
Fans: Errrr no, DS9 sisko
STD is the first female lead
Fans: Errrr noooooo, Voyager
STD has the first openly gay relationship
Fans: Errrrr no, STTNG and DS9 and Dax is trans... soooooooooooo
STD is the first
Fans: No, Stop, you are part of a massively diverse franchise that did "woke" before "woke" was a bloody thing, stop trying to gain virtue points and make a bloody good show or shut the hell up about all this nonsense no one cares about.
STD thinks you are a transphobe, sexist, racist ismphobist.....
Fans: Sigh..... is Orville on?
All pure Hyperbole but I think you get the point, great thing is due to the power of the interwebs we can go back and see this happening over time
warboss wrote: It's sadly not hyperbole as I've seen all of that from fans of the show between facebook and various forums. Sigh...
EDIT: Oops, misread this as meaning the opposite of what you meant. The comment below will stand in a more general sense.
You can find any opinion from any fanbase if you look hard enough. Remember how "Star Wars fans" were outraged about the casting of a black Stormtrooper prior to the release of TFA? That whole nontroversy came from tweets from like, four accounts, one of which was a known troll, just being reported and re-reported and re-re-re-reported in a chain of outrage absent any context whatsoever.
The question is whether these extreme points of view are representative of the segment of the fanbase that is more generally displeased with a given franchise or a tiny fractional minority of gimps that are being cynically used by marketers to rile up the other end of the fan spectrum and paint any criticism as being ultimately derived from hatred and/or mindless traditionalism. Well, actually no, it's not a question - in the vast majority of cases I've seen, the latter is exactly what's happening.
You can find any opinion from any fanbase if you look hard enough. Remember how "Star Wars fans" were outraged about the casting of a black Stormtrooper prior to the release of TFA?
That whole nontroversy came from tweets from like, four accounts, one of which was a known troll, just being reported and re-reported and re-re-re-reported in a chain of outrage absent any context whatsoever.
Yep, I remember the Activist media like Kotaku, mary sue, Vox, Vice etc. all claiming that was the case, 1 dude on twitter says something along those lines and bam! 4000 articles on how all star wars fans are white suppremicists....
The question is whether these extreme points of view are representative of the segment of the fanbase that is more generally displeased with a given franchise or a tiny fractional minority of gimps that are being cynically used by marketers to rile up the other end of the fan spectrum and paint any criticism as being ultimately derived from hatred and/or mindless traditionalism. Well, actually no, it's not a question - in the vast majority of cases I've seen, the latter is exactly what's happening.
Yep, the click bate "journalism" industry is the major problem with fandom these days, maybe if they did not lie so much and actually just delivered the news without taking a political stance
(hahah I know right, Big ask) the fanbase for Star Wars would not be as split, star trek is not split though, most trek fans see STD as a bad show.
I wouldn’t call it a Bad show. It’s not a great show at all, and I’ll definitely complain about some bad aspects of it, but it’s still suitably entertaining and I keep tuning in to it.
AduroT wrote: I wouldn’t call it a Bad show. It’s not a great show at all, and I’ll definitely complain about some bad aspects of it, but it’s still suitably entertaining and I keep tuning in to it.
I owuld have agreed with that until the last half of Season 2 - I honestly can't be bothered with it any more - there is too much else on tv thats better.
If they do an Enterprise show with Anson and co - I would def try that but the writters worship of one character in STD has ruined it for me.
But does that mean it's a bad show, or just a bad Trek show?
Saying Star Trek fans see it as a bad show is probably projecting.
Bounce on over to the Star Trek reddit, which has something like 100k members compared to this forms 2 dozen or so interested posters, and there's a remarkable amount of "I like star trek so I was STD." No one's singing its praises sure, but there's no tidal wave of "how gak is this" posts constantly bemoaning the series' flaws (though those posts are certainly there). TrekBBS is a bit of a more hardcore community, and even there I wouldn't say reception is overwhelmingly negative. Its small subset of fans who think STD is "bad." I think the majority are unimpressed, but watch it anyway because... what else is there?
EDIT: The show is blatantly polarizing, that's for sure, but honestly that's nothing new. A lot of the stuff people complain about in Disco is familiar to me. People complained about TNG changing the look of Klingons (because apparently they didn't see STIII...) and people complained about character X getting too much attention, or "this doesn't look/feel like Star Trek." Really every entry in the series since TOS has had these complains except maybe Voyager (they got different complaints). Not all of it, some of it is new. Kurtzman is probably the first show runner to be this hated. Ira Behr certainly got his share during DS9's run, but not to this degree and he didn't have Kurtzman's habit of inserting foot in mouth. Michael definitely gets way too much attention on the show, which has lost the traditional ensemble cast feel. But who knows. 20 years ago DS9 was "worst trek ever" and 15 years ago Enterprise had "ruined the franchise." Both shows are much more warmly received now (with DS9 becoming to many the pinnacle of the franchise). I'm skeptical Disco will get the same treatment, but people were probably skeptical back then to... So who knows? We'll find out in 20 years.
I would definitely say that STD would probably be a popular show among SF fanatics if you dropped the Star Trek from it's name. Star Trek burdens it with expectations and a long history to live up to. If one were to recast the entire story as an original work it would probably be there with Orville and The Expanse as one of the great scifi shows of the age, but unfortunately it does have Star Trek in its name and that comes with expectations and a long history to live up to. I wouldn't say people are wrong for judging it in that light.
But does that mean it's a bad show, or just a bad Trek show?
Bit of both to be fair, STD is not a very good show in general and not a very good Star Trek show either as it completely deviates from the ensemble style of the past to focus on one very unlikable character, in the past we could have an unlikable character but lots of others to like, its the risk of having a single protagonist.
But does that mean it's a bad show, or just a bad Trek show?
IMO it's both. If it didn't make the conscious choice to inject one sided and very biased current real world politics into the script and itself do the exact same things that it professes to be against then it would just be bad trek overall because of the Mary Sue lead character, frequent bad scripts, and lack of defining characteristics that make Trek historically different from other scifi shows. At least they're getting their $4-7 million per episode money's worth on the effects FWIW; it's definitely a visually pretty mess.
Alex Kurtman has been fired from Star trek allegedly due to bad pre screenings of Picard.
And the chief architect of Bad trek JJ abrahms is gone too, bad reboot are leaving with him and thus so are secret hideout in all likely hood, the best Star Trek news in a long time.
Considering he literally posted updates to all the shows they have planed 1 hour ago, I find this claim to be highly suspect.
which one dude?
Kurtzman, there were several interview articles that went up the other day where he talks about what is coming. Doesn't seem like something that would be happening if he were to be let go.
But does that mean it's a bad show, or just a bad Trek show?
IMO it's both. If it didn't make the conscious choice to inject one sided and very biased current real world politics into the script and itself do the exact same things that it professes to be against then it would just be bad trek overall because of the Mary Sue lead character, frequent bad scripts, and lack of defining characteristics that make Trek historically different from other scifi shows. At least they're getting their $4-7 million per episode money's worth on the effects FWIW; it's definitely a visually pretty mess.
Subtlety. The Reason old trek did such a good job with social issues is because they veiled the discussion in alien cultures, often flipping the entire argument to show how silly some of them can be. (Remember the TNG episode with the genderless people? That was in 1991, well before all the modern discussions about trans issues became a thing in the larger public space.) DIS unfortunately just smashes you in the face with the topic, in a heavy handed and authoritative way.
*Let This Be Your Last Battlefield.
*Just having Uhura have authority.
*Asian people without glasses or accents!
*Well they did have a drunk Irishman and a Scot who loved Scotch.
But does that mean it's a bad show, or just a bad Trek show?
Bit of both to be fair, STD is not a very good show in general and not a very good Star Trek show either as it completely deviates from the ensemble style of the past to focus on one very unlikable character, in the past we could have an unlikable character but lots of others to like, its the risk of having a single protagonist.
I kind of agree that Disco isn’t particularly Star Trek. I mean, Season 2 had distinctly Trek episodes, and they were welcome. I just want more consistent Trek feel.
But I don’t agree at all that it’s not a very good show. The plots are decent, the effects amazing. Actors are fine and dandy. Yes, the script needs some work, and I very much agree we need less of a focus on Burnham.
Me? I’ve high hopes for Season 3. The end of Season 2 took us out of the past, and into the future. And I expect some of the events of Picard to reflect in the story. With it being largely untethered from canonical events (always a sod with prequels) I’m hoping we’ll see more creativity in the plots.
Still haven't watched STD (no interest in another streaming service) but I really liked the redesign of the Enterprise. I even got the Eaglemoss XL model of it.
It is pretty nice. I did like JJ Abrams film redesign, but it did feel a bit too much like an apple product, which just produced this sort of odd sensation whenever I looked at it.
That one looks like a modernized version of the original design, which was never quite my cup of tea, but Federation Aesthetic is like root beer.
The Enterprise is pretty much the only design from STD that I do like and that version in the calendar/prototype pic is my favorite. It's too bad they didn't keep it in TOS style grey instead of switching it over to the metallic aztec of the DISCOverse.
I haven't seen much of Discovery, but I like all the ship designs...as mid-2340's or 2380's designs. Like ST Enterprise, the designs all feel way too "modern" for a prequel show.
Avasarala is an astounding character, and the Expanse is probably the best scifi show currently running.
I was able to get through STD by basically turning my brain off and equating it more with TOS than other shows, so it didn't offend me much, but I will totally concur that nothing in that show can match Avasarala.
It's also just as unnecessary as all the other redesigns, but unlike the Movieprise and JJprise is attempting to replace the original classic design, which makes it inherently garbage as far as I'm concerned. It could be the best Star Trek ship ever made(it isn't of course) and that would still be true. Which is half the problem with STD really - it's an attempt by the Abrams-era team to "lay claim" to Trek's history and remake it in their image, without even the fig leaf of "it's an alternate timeline/reality".
Here's how you update the TOS aesthetic for modernity - let some of the women officers wear trousers & tunic instead of miniskirt & leggings. Make the phaser noise marginally less ear-piercing. Done.
Here's how you update the TOS aesthetic for modernity - let some of the women officers wear trousers & tunic instead of miniskirt & leggings. Make the phaser noise marginally less ear-piercing. Done.
I agree with the clothing changes and, in my imaginary I won the lottery scenario where I produce trek fan films, I'd make that change as well. It doesn't take that much to change the DISCO designs into something that at least could fit in with a modernized version of TOS; it just takes effort and a heartfelt desire to still be inspired by/reminiscent of the original while still updating. This guy (MadKoiFish) does it on his own as a hobby....
Mr Morden wrote: Wasn;t STD tied in using their directors own super special space ship designs - esp for the Klingons which is why they look so out of place?
The design of Discovery itself isn't original to STD. It's based on a early concept art for a a Federation ship when Roddenberry and crew were looking at making a sequel to TOS. You can see in the design's flattened and wide frame how they transitioned from the look of TOS to the look of TNG. The original concept art got scrapped but the producers of STD revived it for the series and that design became Discovery.
I think the Klingon's look different because someone wanted to show off. They noticeably started dialing it back on the ships (reverting to more classic Klingon look, but with spiky bits) before season 1 even ended. Still looked like gak though. The Ship of the Dead literally looks like someone took the Hirogen battlecruisers from Voyager, made them rounder, and added lots of spikes, while the interior feels lifted out of Nah'kul bridges in STO to me. Either way, none of it felt Klingon. Probably the series biggest overral mistake (after Mary Sue Michael). Nothing about Klingon's needed such a radical redesign. If they really wanted to modernize the look, they could have just used the Into Darkness design, which at least still looked Klingon.
Here's how you update the TOS aesthetic for modernity - let some of the women officers wear trousers & tunic instead of miniskirt & leggings. Make the phaser noise marginally less ear-piercing. Done.
I agree with the clothing changes and, in my imaginary I won the lottery scenario where I produce trek fan films, I'd make that change as well. It doesn't take that much to change the DISCO designs into something that at least could fit in with a modernized version of TOS; it just takes effort and a heartfelt desire to still be inspired by/reminiscent of the original while still updating. This guy (MadKoiFish) does it on his own as a hobby....
Eh, I'm in the camp of redesigns not being necessary at all, certainly not for a supposed prequel.
You can get away with redesigning stuff for a full reboot/sequel like BSG, but if you're going to use an existing setting and time period with an established aesthetic, you should be adhering to that aesthetic not trying to twist it to conform to modern trends.
That 60's sci-fi style might not be to everyone's taste these days, but that doesn't mean it needs to be replaced, and changing it doesn't mean it's better, merely different.
The Defiant set looked great in the Enterprise mirror episode IMO, shows it's entirely possible to film a modern HD show on a faithful version of the bridge set without having to make everything glossy and dark and plastered with lights. And there's any number of fantastic renditions of TOS-era ships that are fully faithful to the original aesthetic - the covers for the Vanguard and Seekers novel series' for example - that demonstrate the ship designs still stand on their own without the need for all the extra raised paneling and greebling and altered hull curvatures that "reimaginings" like the STD connie end up plastered with, all the originals need is a basic "HD" version and modern rendering/lighting.
Mr Morden wrote: Wasn;t STD tied in using their directors own super special space ship designs - esp for the Klingons which is why they look so out of place?
The design of Discovery itself isn't original to STD. It's based on a early concept art for a a Federation ship when Roddenberry and crew were looking at making a sequel to TOS. You can see in the design's flattened and wide frame how they transitioned from the look of TOS to the look of TNG. The original concept art got scrapped but the producers of STD revived it for the series and that design became Discovery.
I'm guessing we are referring to the Star Trek Phase 2 stuff from the late 70's?
I'm fine with the Enterprise design from STD as it incorporates elements of both the original series ship and the refit from the first series of movies. Of course I am just looking at it from a design standpoint with little interest in the show and not as a gatekeeper of the purity of the religious movement. Futurama told us the holy wars are coming.
Ah yes, the old "anyone who disagrees with me is a fanatic, and anyone who doesn't see the point in 'updating' something to pander to the ego of a modern artist is 'gatekeeping'" thing. Wonderful.
Yodhrin wrote: Ah yes, the old "anyone who disagrees with me is a fanatic, and anyone who doesn't see the point in 'updating' something to pander to the ego of a modern artist is 'gatekeeping'" thing. Wonderful.
No need to be petulant and angry as it won't change the future; the Star Trek vs. Star Wars Wars are still forertold.
Mr Morden wrote: Wasn;t STD tied in using their directors own super special space ship designs - esp for the Klingons which is why they look so out of place?
The design of Discovery itself isn't original to STD. It's based on a early concept art for a a Federation ship when Roddenberry and crew were looking at making a sequel to TOS. You can see in the design's flattened and wide frame how they transitioned from the look of TOS to the look of TNG. The original concept art got scrapped but the producers of STD revived it for the series and that design became Discovery.
I'm guessing we are referring to the Star Trek Phase 2 stuff from the late 70's?
I'm fine with the Enterprise design from STD as it incorporates elements of both the original series ship and the refit from the first series of movies. Of course I am just looking at it from a design standpoint with little interest in the show and not as a gatekeeper of the purity of the religious movement. Futurama told us the holy wars are coming.
whats your view on the Kilingons?
I just think they would have been fine if they had been a whole other race - which would have made little or no difference to the story.
No issues with the various Enterprise and Dicsovery was ok as experimental ship
I think they started out as an interesting foil for the Federation but over time they were weakened a bit by some of the choices made. The major points being that Paramount wanted to save money on sets and costumes so they changed the antagonists of Star Trek III: The Search for Spock from Romulans to Klingons since they still had the sets and costumes from ST: The Motion Picture. This meant the previously honorable warrior society suddenly became sneaky cloak using gits as well as necessitating a retcon to explain the change in attitude/culture. The other would be the Worf Effect.
The one species I think they should have done more with were the Gorn. Star Fleet Command had them as an ally of the Federation but that isn't cannon and as far as I know they were not used in any of the shows or movies beyond the single episode of TOS where Starfleet and the Gorn have their first run in. They had a lot of potential being big scary reptilian humanoids that were intelligent.
The one species I think they should have done more with were the Gorn. Star Fleet Command had them as an ally of the Federation but that isn't cannon and as far as I know they were not used in any of the shows or movies beyond the single episode of TOS where Starfleet and the Gorn have their first run in. They had a lot of potential being big scary reptilian humanoids that were intelligent.
A Gorn got a Cameo appearance in ENT Mirror Universe two parter, but it wasn't even a one scene wonder. More like a one frame "oh look I remember that!"
Of course, this goes to one of my biggest grips with ST fandom. The need to explode the significance of things so monumentally unimportant they only warranted a bit part in a crisis of the week episode, never to be seen again. It's amazing how much of TOS that people consider to be absolutely sacred amounts to one offs.
I'm not sure that sacred always works to describe it, but certainly does in some cases, still it is interesting to see out of all the storylines that were raised in the series what ended up being pursued and what was ignored. I know part of my nostalgia for the Gorn is that Star Fleet Command used them a lot more so having them essentially ignored is disappointing. Somehow I'll get over it though and move on.
They did that in TNG as well. I remember one where they blew up a guys head that had been taken over by some weird parasites, after finding out that the creatures had infiltrated Starfleet, and afterwards it was noted that they had sent a signal out and that something was on its way. As far as I know they never followed up that.
As for the Klingons I forgot about the JJ Abrams ones, which honestly could have been any alien race but went with Klingons as people have heard the name but nothing really stood out. As for them in STD no idea as I've never watched it I just liked the Enterprise design.
Ahtman wrote: They did that in TNG as well. I remember one where they blew up a guys head that had been taken over by some weird parasites, after finding out that the creatures had infiltrated Starfleet, and afterwards it was noted that they had sent a signal out and that something was on its way. As far as I know they never followed up that.
Yeah. Only media I know that ever followed up on it was a STO plotline in Delta Rising.
I think that was an attempt by TNG to have an arc villain, only for them to get cold feet about it at the last minute and stick with standalone stories.
If I’m right in thinking, they were meant to be something to do with The Borg?
That was before The Borg were finalised as cyborgs though.
Aha! I wasn’t a squillion miles off.
Memory Alpha wrote:he Star Trek Chronology (revised 1996, p. 290) noted: "Although Picard and company were successful in eradicating them, the parasites did send a mysterious radio signal, presumably to others of their kind. At the time the episode was written, this was apparently intended to lead to the introduction of the Borg in Star Trek: The Next Generation's second season. The Borg connection was dropped before "Q Who" (TNG) was written, and the truth about the parasites remains a mystery."
Have you guys seen the Redletter Media review of Discovery season 2? They destroyed it and blasted the upcoming Picard show as well. I'll try to link it when I'm on a better device.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Have you guys seen the Redletter Media review of Discovery season 2? They destroyed it and blasted the upcoming Picard show as well. I'll try to link it when I'm on a better device.
Of course, this goes to one of my biggest grips with ST fandom. The need to explode the significance of things so monumentally unimportant they only warranted a bit part in a crisis of the week episode, never to be seen again. It's amazing how much of TOS that people consider to be absolutely sacred amounts to one offs.
Remember the tribble episode of DS9? A short, funny scene with a wink-and-a-nod to how TOS Klingons looked different from modern Klingons, and look how it snowballed.
Of course, this goes to one of my biggest grips with ST fandom. The need to explode the significance of things so monumentally unimportant they only warranted a bit part in a crisis of the week episode, never to be seen again. It's amazing how much of TOS that people consider to be absolutely sacred amounts to one offs.
Remember the tribble episode of DS9? A short, funny scene with a wink-and-a-nod to how TOS Klingons looked different from modern Klingons, and look how it snowballed.
Yeah. It's the episode I both love and hate. I love it because it's brilliant as a tribute and as an episode of TV in its own right. I hate it because it opened a giant barrel of monkeys of stupid fan theories, and two of the worst ENT episodes, and ENT had a lot of bad episodes.
I preferred SFDebris’ idea- they should have just put Michael Dorn in the same makeup, not said a word and just chalk it up to improvements in makeup technology.
I actually think the Augment "origin story" thing was a solid idea.
Remember they're not just trying to explain why Klingons look different, but why they behave different - TOS Klingons and TOS Movie/TNG onwards Klingons don't actually have much in common beyond the name, a few shared design cues, and their mostly antagonistic stance towards the Federation.
When you "just ignore things" you end up with idiocy like STD Klingorcs apparently being able to grow full heads of hair within literally a few hours or days.
Care towards continuity doesn't make a story great, but the absence of it definitely makes it trash, IMO.
AndrewGPaul wrote: I preferred SFDebris’ idea- they should have just put Michael Dorn in the same makeup, not said a word and just chalk it up to improvements in makeup technology.
That's actually pretty funny.
Remember they're not just trying to explain why Klingons look different, but why they behave different
Neither of those things needed explanations but I think you and I have been down this route already, so maybe there isn't a point in doing it again? We'll just end up grumbling at each other like targs XD
The difference in the culture of the Klingons between TOS and TNG could have been explained politically; a fundamentalist political movement rising to prominence during the movie era and then taking over as a reaction to the administration of Chancellor Azetbur after the disaster in ST6. There’s two or theee generations between the movies and TNG, after all.
YMMV, but I would have found that more interesting than just another example of how nobody involved in Star Trek understands life sciences.
AndrewGPaul wrote: The difference in the culture of the Klingons between TOS and TNG could have been explained politically; a fundamentalist political movement rising to prominence during the movie era and then taking over as a reaction to the administration of Chancellor Azetbur after the disaster in ST6. There’s two or theee generations between the movies and TNG, after all.
YMMV, but I would have found that more interesting than just another example of how nobody involved in Star Trek understands life sciences.
We could extend that to most fiction. Whether it be elves and orcs or Vulcans and Klingons there’s this tendency to dumb down culture and politics into stone written monoliths that go unchanged for thousands of years. Not all the time of course. DS9!toyed with how cultures change over time and so did ENT in at least one two parter, but generally written a write the alien culture around XHumans like old men wrote about the Orient.
AndrewGPaul wrote: The difference in the culture of the Klingons between TOS and TNG could have been explained politically; a fundamentalist political movement rising to prominence during the movie era and then taking over as a reaction to the administration of Chancellor Azetbur after the disaster in ST6. There’s two or theee generations between the movies and TNG, after all.
YMMV, but I would have found that more interesting than just another example of how nobody involved in Star Trek understands life sciences.
It could have, but that wouldn't have explained the aesthetic difference. By tying the two together using the old Augments background you explain everything at once, in-universe, in a single 3-part story without having to tweak any of the existing material.
Either option has now been entirely fethed anyway, thanks to STD.
Yeah, but I'd have been happy to ignore the visual difference as the difference between 60s effects and 80s effects - like they did right up until Trials and Tribble-ations.
90s Trek (including TNG as it was mostly in the 90s) had a habit of featuring rather one-note aliens, or of simplifying the ones they introduced; Klingons and battle, Ferengi and moneymaking, the Borg and assimilation, Bajorans and lazy "eastern" spirituality and Cardassians and militarism.
The Ferengi are an odd one, in that they were always supposed to be a caricature of Western capitalism, but at least in TNG they weren't shy of a fight - then in DS9 they got an upgrade from the capering monkey-men of early TNG, but by DS9 those big scary warships vanished (a pity - the Ferengi could have made some cash by hiring them out in the Dominion War - or as Wormhole guards in the first couple of seasons).
The changes in the Ferengi are explained by the shift away from anticapitalist sentiment in TNG to the more mainstream Western Goodguy Interventionist Liberals philosophy that was on show for DS9 - the "Del Boy as a sexist comedy-relief troll" version lets them shift the focus away from the inherent barbarism of capitalism towards more comfortable ground for aforementioned mainstream position.
As for the Klingons - eh, I'd always prefer to see something like that explained, if it can be done reasonably and in-universe. "Romulans have a wee ridge on their heads now" is something you can ignore due to special effects budgets, "these guys look, sound, and act like a completely different species" is just too much for a lot of people's suspension of disbelief to handle. And in this case, the changes were kind of unavoidable - if you want to talk about one-note races, TOS Klingons trump them all given they're pretty much nothing other than a huge flashing Totally Not The Ruskies Honest Guv sign.
That said, I don't think the one-note thing is actually an issue - save in cases like TOS Klingons when it was too much "of its time" to work once the Cold War was passed - because that was the whole point of the major alien races in Star Trek; they each either epitomise or otherwise highlight some aspect of our own society or history in a way the viewer can't ignore and without getting their dander up in the way they would if the subject was broached more directly, and then the Superior People of the future show us primitive post-industrial barbarians how to deal with it like civilised folks.
A lot of people don't care for that aspect of Trek, but I'd say it's so utterly core to the concept that disliking it means, functionally, you dislike Trek. I'll take it over "I like Science".
And for the Ferengi no one took the "greedy capitalists" seriously as a threat to the Federation. Especially not with how cheesy the acting was in the first few appearances completely undoing any established sense of menace by the main cast. I'd say DS9 effectively salvaged the entire fictional species from the scrap heap, taking them out of the hamfisted approach TNG initially took with them and representing them as a much stronger work of satire and humor.
Mr Morden wrote: Wasn;t STD tied in using their directors own super special space ship designs - esp for the Klingons which is why they look so out of place?
The design of Discovery itself isn't original to STD. It's based on a early concept art for a a Federation ship when Roddenberry and crew were looking at making a sequel to TOS. You can see in the design's flattened and wide frame how they transitioned from the look of TOS to the look of TNG. The original concept art got scrapped but the producers of STD revived it for the series and that design became Discovery.
I'm guessing we are referring to the Star Trek Phase 2 stuff from the late 70's?
I'm fine with the Enterprise design from STD as it incorporates elements of both the original series ship and the refit from the first series of movies. Of course I am just looking at it from a design standpoint with little interest in the show and not as a gatekeeper of the purity of the religious movement. Futurama told us the holy wars are coming.
whats your view on the Kilingons?
I just think they would have been fine if they had been a whole other race - which would have made little or no difference to the story.
No issues with the various Enterprise and Dicsovery was ok as experimental ship
BIG Issue with Ent and Dis.
Dis technology doesn't make sense, even for an "experimental ship." It breaks cannon and serves as a gakky excuse to write a story that could have easily just been set in the 26th century.
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LordofHats wrote: And for the Ferengi no one took the "greedy capitalists" seriously as a threat to the Federation. Especially not with how cheesy the acting was in the first few appearances completely undoing any established sense of menace by the main cast. I'd say DS9 effectively salvaged the entire fictional species from the scrap heap, taking them out of the hamfisted approach TNG initially took with them and representing them as a much stronger work of satire and humor.
I agree, though I remember many a joke about Quark wearing his "jew gold" around his neck when on Frenginar in some episodes. They went a bit too far in later episodes trying to force a societal change on the species all at once instead of setting up the seeds of change.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: If I’m right in thinking, they were meant to be something to do with The Borg?
That was before The Borg were finalised as cyborgs though.
Aha! I wasn’t a squillion miles off.
Memory Alpha wrote:he Star Trek Chronology (revised 1996, p. 290) noted: "Although Picard and company were successful in eradicating them, the parasites did send a mysterious radio signal, presumably to others of their kind. At the time the episode was written, this was apparently intended to lead to the introduction of the Borg in Star Trek: The Next Generation's second season. The Borg connection was dropped before "Q Who" (TNG) was written, and the truth about the parasites remains a mystery."
The Borg where meant to be a bug race, so it makes sense.
Why wait, right? Heading into the massive Saturday morning Hall H Star Trek panel at San Diego Comic-Con, the upcoming CBS All Access series Star Trek: Picard is still a bit of a mytery. In advance of the panel, the show’s executive producer Alex Kurtzman and showrunner Michael Chabon sat down with Entertainment Weekly to share new insights into the series. While they carefully avoided any major spoilers, Kurtzman and Chabon revealed a lot about the tone and direction of Star Trek: Picard.
Prior to this week, we only had the Star Trek: Picard teaser trailer and a few images released by CBS All Access to work with. Jonathan Frakes did shar on twitter that he directed two episodes in the show’s first season. Late in the filming for the first season, Chabon was announced as showrunner. CBS carefully guarded all other details, including plot and guest stars.
Star Trek universe commander Kurtzman and Picard showrunner Chabon’s interview with EW provides the world’s first peek into the psychology of the series. Anyone who has been reading the press knows that the show focuses on post-retirement Captain Jean-Luc Picard (Patrick Stewart). However, viewers didn’t know why this particular character and this particular time period are important. Chabon and Kurtzman paint a vivid picture: a show about a once powerful man now trying to right a past injustice, without the trappings of his former position.
Despite the fact that none of the teaser scenes or released images showed Picard in space, Kurtzman reassured fans that “Events began to unfold that conspire to take Picard back to the stars.” However, Picard will likely not be going back as a Starfleet officer. Following up, Kurtzman enigmatically replies “He will [go to space], but not in a way that anyone expects.” Expanding on that point, Kurtzman shares more detail:
“Because he’s no longer in Starfleet, he no longer carries the weight of that behind him. In some ways, it’s easier to be [a great man] when you’re a captain. But it’s an entirely different thing when you don’t have an army behind you. When you want to get something done and fight an injustice, how do you do that when you’re really only one man?”
Unlike Stewart’s run as Picard on Star Trek: The Next Generation, the Picard show will be serialized rather than episodic. Instead of the “mission-of-the-week” format of previous shows, Star Trek: Picard‘s first season will be one long arc – a format familiar to fans of Star Trek: Discovery.
According to the producers, die-hard fans of the Picard character have nothing to fear from the new show or the new format. Kurtzman somewhat reassuringly asserted:
“It was terribly important to us that he remains fundamentally Picard. You will not see a version that betrays the man we loved from Next Generation. We’re not doing that. But we wanted to put a character with that level of morality and leadership and who always does the right thing no matter how hard the circumstances … we wanted to put that to the test.”
While Picard is the same man, Chabon points out that he is not unchanged – adding: “He’s a lot older and we’re not shying away from that at all — we’re dealing with a man who’s in a very different place in his life.”
The incredible acting by Stewart, however, has only changed for the better – with Chabon praising…
“The quality of Patrick’s acting, if anything, has gotten even better over time and he was already a master. He has an ability to hold you riveted even when he’s just sitting and listening.”
Star Trek: Picard stars Stewart, Alison Pill, Michelle Hurd, Evan Evagora, Isa Briones, Santiago Cabrera, and Harry Treadaway, and an adorable canine companion – with the series expected to premier in late 2019.
Stay tuned to Bleeding Cool for even more news on Star Trek: Picard from the SDCC 2019 Star Trek universe panel on Saturday.
"Star Trek universe commander Kurtzman"? Oh no. Oh no no no no no.
Anyway, they tell us a whole lot of nothing about the series. It could be good depending on the writing, but they seem to have chosen some lazy Drama! cliches that don't inspire hope. And do we really want to see a good man and familiar friend "put to the test" to salve his guilty conscience when we watch TNG era Star Trek? Do we really need another feel-bad drama in a streaming market glutted with them?
So, now that my expectations are low the final product should be able to surpass them that much more easily, right?
According to the producers, die-hard fans of the Picard character have nothing to fear from the new show or the new format. Kurtzman somewhat reassuringly asserted:
I feel like a battered wife when I read this. I've been hurt before by Kurtzman.
“Because he’s no longer in Starfleet, he no longer carries the weight of that behind him. In some ways, it’s easier to be [a great man] when you’re a captain. But it’s an entirely different thing when you don’t have an army behind you. When you want to get something done and fight an injustice, how do you do that when you’re really only one man?”
Chabon and Kurtzman paint a vivid picture: a show about a once powerful man now trying to right a past injustice, without the trappings of his former position.
Jean Luc Picard, intergalactic social justice warrior confirmed! Perhaps a toxic male Klingon microaggressed a Jem Hed'arr thereby restarting the Alpha Beta Gamma Quadrant war as a result. The Betazoid in me senses dozens of youtube outrage videos coming in the near future based on double super secret insider information as a result.
I just saw the episode last night where a guy broke the non-interference rule and created a Nazi state because he thought it would be ok this time. It was not. Thanks to Star Trek we learned Nazis are bad and that Zeons are ok.
Anyone else hope that John Delancey appears as Q in the new Picard series? Those two have great chemistry.
Don't forget that trying to tackle tar monsters is tactical mistake and having sex with ghosts of one of your ancestors isn't advisable either. I think we as a species going forward are set for all possibilities.
But we wanted to put a character with that level of morality and leadership and who always does the right thing no matter how hard the circumstances … we wanted to put that to the test
Yeah that never happened on the show- except when it did ..... I am not a fan of Jean Luc to be honest but this sounds awful.
they still have stuff they can't replicate 
