Star Trek: general discussion-Picard, Discovery, Lower Decks (and Orville)

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Wyrmalla**

Formosa wrote:
Just finished watching the new episode and... Utterly utterly pointless, nothing happened in it, I turned it out and it just ended with nothing added to the plot and just crap thrown in as filler... Wow, possibly worst episode of the entire show for me.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and control is the proto Borg, calling it now

Control's going to both time travel and jump to a spot of unexplored space? Meh, the writers could probably justify that. From what I can remember of the Borg's canon they were already a robotic race thousands of years ago, but hadn't conquered much till more recently.

Having the crew defeat Control and then there being a line about the danger of AI and how they'll be prepared next time (as Section 31 retreat into a darkened room) would be more appropriate.

**Formosa**

Well another bad episode over and leaving a worrying thought in my head, Burnham possibly being in the Picard series :(

This episode is pure filler people so skip it if you want.

**AduroT**

What episode was that queen in? I don’t remember her?

**Formosa**

AduroT wrote:
What episode was that queen in? I don’t remember her?

I thought the same, she was so distinct that I would have remembered seeing her but i am drawing a total blank??

**AduroT**

Formosa wrote:
AduroT wrote:
What episode was that queen in? I don’t remember her?

I thought the same, she was so distinct that I would have remembered seeing her but i am drawing a total blank??

I looked it up, she was apparently in one of the web shorts and not Discovery itself.

**H.B.M.C.**

So we're clear, Tyler's totally coming back with a Klingon fleet in tow, right?

**AduroT**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
So we're clear, Tyler's totally coming back with a Klingon fleet in tow, right?

That was my assumption.

**crnaguja**

I loved how enterprise couldn't destroy discovery (usually they destroy most ships with a salvo of two photon torpedos), and how they where surrounded in space by section 31 ships. Surrounded from 2 dimensions. I mean there where other gems, but these where my favourites

**Chillreaper**

The overly drawn out "goodbye, you're so brave/noble/stupid" scenes really left me zoning out on that episode. Come on, we know that nothing bad's going to happen to Burnham...

Plus, they played that out with Saru and he seems to be walking and breathing just fine these days. Oh yeah, Hugh is back to doctoring the crew perfectly well, also.

**Mr Morden**

Is the empress in it all anymore - I have not bothered with the last few epsiodes but might if she has some fun scenes - I can always fast forward the rest of the Burnham crap.

**AduroT**

She’s been hovering around, but hasn’t really done much that I recall. Her most notable scene was

Spoiler:

**chromedog**

AduroT wrote:
What episode was that queen in? I don’t remember her?

There were a few "Short treks" that were webisodes between the seasons. She was in the first one "Runaway" - which was her and Tilly. They bonded over engineering drivel and icecream. The second ("Calypso") was about Harcourt Fenton Mudd, and the third ("the brightest star") was a Saru episode.

**warboss**

OMG... Mary Burnham is the red angel!?! Who could have predicted that? Well.. pretty much anyone who recognizes the razzie quality writing similar to current Star Wars and (from what I've heard but yet to watch) Doctor Who. I'll binge the season in a few weeks during a free trial of CBS All Access to see if it really is as bad as the reviews I listen to make it out to be.

**AduroT**

Kind of disappointed that wasn’t the series finale, not because I hate the show (it’s still entertaining sci-fi action despite the bad writing) but simply because that would have been the perfect ending point for it all.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Enjoyable enough finale.

Reckon I’ll go back and binge the whole season at some point, possibly before Season 3.

**Formosa**

Well, that ending was certainly JJ trek through and through, they tried to wrap the series up and tie the loose ends they created and failed miserably, they have shunted disco into the future so now I'm doubly worried it will tie into Picard series and thus ruin it and still we have no explanation of how this all ties into the main timeline if at all, all the time travel gumf just makes it worse, not better.

Oh well, I'm done with this "star trek" now, gonna skip series 3 unless something drastic happens like the entire writing and production team gets fired and they bring on competent people who know what they are doing.

**warboss**

At least they ended up for season 3 where they should have been for the premiere episode. I won't elaborate further as I'm too lazy to fish out the spoiler tags and using the quick reply anyways.

**reds8n**

https://trekmovie.com/2019/04/19/alex-kurtzman-confirms-star-trek-discovery-season-3-destination-hears-fans-on-pike-series/

er... spoilers, obvs :

Last night Star Trek: Discovery delivered on the promised game-changing second season finale. Now the showrunners are talking about what it all means.

Kurtzman talks Discovery season 3
Speaking with The Hollywood Reporter, Star Trek: Discovery co-creator and co-showrunner Alex Kurtzman broke down the second season finale in some detail. He also removed any doubt as to where the show is headed:

We are jumping 950 years into the future for season three.

Kurtzman talked about how the decision to jump the show into the 33rd century frees them up:

We love playing within canon. It’s a delight and a privilege. It’s fun to explore nooks and crannies of the universe that people haven’t fully explored yet. That being said, we felt strongly that we wanted to give ourselves an entirely new energy for season three with a whole new set of problems. We’re farther than any Trek show has ever gone. I also had experience working on the [J.J. Abrams] films where we were stuck with canonical problems. We knew how Kirk had died, and we wondered how we could put him in jeopardy to make it feel real. That’s what led us to go with an alternate timeline; suddenly we could tell the story in a very unpredictable way. That’s the same thought process that went into jumping 950 years into the future. We’re now completely free of canon, and we have a whole new universe to explore.

When asked if characters from other Trek series might show up, Kurtzman again noted the time jump puts the show far beyond where Trek has been before:

There will be canonical references to everything that has happened in the various shows; we’re not erasing that. But we’re so far past that point that all of that is a very distant memory. We’re very excited to see how you put the elements of Star Trek in an entirely new universe.

No details were provided on what the crew of the Discovery will have to deal with in this 33rd century, but he did indicate that it isn’t going to be all smooth sailing:

All I can tell you is that Control is officially neutralized, but there will be much bigger problems when they get to the other side of that wormhole.

Kurtzman on Pike, Picard and Section 31
Kurtzman also talked about the expanding Star Trek universe he oversees, including the buzz around a series set on Pike’s USS Enterprise, making it clear they are aware of the interest:

The fans have been heard. Anything is possible in the world of Trek. I would love to bring back that crew more than anything. It was a huge risk for us. One of the most gratifying things is to see how deeply the fans have embraced Pike, Spock, Number One, and the Enterprise. The idea of getting to tell more stories with them would be a delight for all of us.

The next show to launch will be the Picard series starring Sir Patrick Stewart. Earlier this week, CBS announced three more actors had joined the cast. Speaking to THR, Kurtzman gave a little update on the status of the show:

[The Picard series] going amazingly. We start shooting soon. It will be really different from Discovery in tone, pace, and story. I’m so excited with how our cast came together. Hanelle Culpepper, our director, is absolutely crushing it. We’re so excited because it’s so different. Yet, I think people who like The Next Generation will recognize that it’s made by people who love it equally. It will be really interesting to see how people respond.

The executive producer also briefly discussed the Section 31 series planned to go into production after the third season of Discovery:

If you’re a fan of Deep Space Nine, you’ve probably spent the past two years saying, “What the hell are they doing with Section 31? That’s nothing like the Section 31 we know.” That’s exactly right. In Deep Space Nine, they did not have badges or ships. They’re an underground organization. What you see on Discovery and our upcoming show with Michelle Yeoh is how Section 31 became that organization and why it was so underground by the time Deep Space Nine comes around.

Paradise talks Discovery season 2 finale
Alex Kurtzman’s co-showrunner (and co-writer of the season finale) Michelle Paradise discussed “Such Sweet Sorrow” with Entertainment Tonight, explaining the reasoning behind the solution to how to sync the show with canon:

Wrapping this story up and being clear that because of the danger that Control presented, because of the spore drive, because of this time-traveling technology… for those reasons and to prevent any dangerous entities from trying to access these things again, we must nip it in the bud. The lying about it is a protection for Starfleet. That’s the reason that they do it and it is also to make sure that if Section 31 has any designs on doing the next version of Control, that it can’t get out of control — no pun intended — and create a similar problem in the future. It was about answering the season two story, eliminating the threat of Control so that we, as viewers, understand Control has been eliminated. The goal of this season was to take care of this problem and we have taken care of this problem successfully. And at the same time, that also puts us in line with canon. Those were the reasons that we did that.

The executive producer and writer provided some background on their approach to wrapping up the sibling arc of Spock and Burnham:

We had done a lot of work on the Burnham and Spock relationship over the course of this season. We knew from the beginning that we wanted to start them in a place where they were fractured and that the journey of the season would be to bring them back together and heal the wounds between them. Of course, he has to go on the Enterprise at some point, so you bring their relationship to a satisfying conclusion where the hurts of the past have been healed and where they have been able to help, support and influence one another. We talked a lot about what Spock could give to Burnham and what Burnham could give to Spock. Over the course of the season, we see that play out in a number of different episodes, leading to this culmination where they share with one another the ways in which they’re better and the ways in which they need one another and the ways in which they are okay knowing that she must go on to do this mission and he must return to the Enterprise. We were trying to find the best possible way to honor their sibling relationship and end them in a positive way.

Paradise also confirmed that when Michael was advising Spock to seek out his “opposite,” the writers were alluding to a specific character Spock will encounter in the future:

Absolutely. That is definitely Kirk.

Work on Season 3 has begun
As we have previously reported, production of the third season of Discovery is scheduled to begin in early July. Prep work has already started in Toronto: This morning, prop master Mario Moreira posted a tweet from his office saying he started prepping for season three this week and “couldn’t be more excited.”

**AndrewGPaul**

Formosa wrote:
Well, that ending was certainly JJ trek through and through, they tried to wrap the series up and tie the loose ends they created and failed miserably, they have shunted disco into the future so now I'm doubly worried it will tie into Picard series and thus ruin it and still we have no explanation of how this all ties into the main timeline if at all, all the time travel gumf just makes it worse, not better.

Oh well, I'm done with this "star trek" now, gonna skip series 3 unless something drastic happens like the entire writing and production team gets fired and they bring on competent people who know what they are doing.

Only if Picard lives to be 900 years old.

**Formosa**

God damn kurtzman has some brass balls to outright lie several times in that conversation, he is also living in cloud cookoo land if he believes a lot of what he has said.

**AndrewGPaul**

Formosa wrote:
outright lie

Such as?

**ingtaer**

"We love playing within canon." Has got to be a pretty big contender.

**Slipspace**

So, after that finale I have a sudden craving to watch BSG again. Apparently the Trek universe does drones/fighters now. Add that to the list of canon things they've trampled all over. Were they really trying to build tension over whether Spock and the Enterprise would survive the battle?

I'm confused why nobody's allowed to talk about Discovery any more as well. Isn't that actually more dangerous than just recording the ship as officially destroyed in a quantum singularity event and lost with all hands? I mean, the ship existed, it'll be in Starfleet records all over the place and over the time it's been in service many, many people will have encountered it so I'm not sure how you plan to just wipe it out of existence. The "lost with all hands" thing is even a plausible explanation you can feed ot the Enterprise crew who witnessed it. The idea we're now never allowed to speak of it again, just to sort out the complete mess the series has caused with Trek continuity is about as clunky and poorly thought-out as the rest of the series has been.

They have a chance (about an hour-long chance, in fact) to try to recover the disjointed mess of a series at the start of season 3. They're now liberated from the concerns of stepping on the original timeline but that won't help with the frequently terrible writing. Presumably the time-jump is so we can now discover that the whole universe worships Michael due to how obviously perfect she is at everything.

**Yodhrin**

Join us in our exploration of the 33rd century, a world where the entire human race consists of just clones of the Most Perfect Being - Micheal Burnham. Experience the struggles of the original version as she attempts to integrate into a society where everyone is as perfect as she is, and her subsequent desperate attempts to time travel back to a time where she can return to being The Only One Who's Ever Right And Cool And Awesome Evar.

**AduroT**

I’m really curious what this thing is they’re going to find that’s worse than the AI that wiped out all sentient life from the galaxy.

**warboss**

Slipspace wrote:
So, after that finale I have a sudden craving to watch BSG again. Apparently the Trek universe does drones/fighters now. Add that to the list of canon things they've trampled all over. Were they really trying to build tension over whether Spock and the Enterprise would survive the battle?

I'm confused why nobody's allowed to talk about Discovery any more as well. Isn't that actually more dangerous than just recording the ship as officially destroyed in a quantum singularity event and lost with all hands? I mean, the ship existed, it'll be in Starfleet records all over the place and over the time it's been in service many, many people will have encountered it so I'm not sure how you plan to just wipe it out of existence. The "lost with all hands" thing is even a plausible explanation you can feed ot the Enterprise crew who witnessed it. The idea we're now never allowed to speak of it again, just to sort out the complete mess the series has caused with Trek continuity is about as clunky and poorly thought-out as the rest of the series has been.

They have a chance (about an hour-long chance, in fact) to try to recover the disjointed mess of a series at the start of season 3. They're now liberated from the concerns of stepping on the original timeline but that won't help with the frequently terrible writing. Presumably the time-jump is so we can now discover that the whole universe worships Michael due to how obviously perfect she is at everything.

I had a similar urge with Babylon 5 about a year ago and it passed eventually when I couldn't find it on any streaming service that worked on my TV. When it came to amazon prime a couple months back, I watched about two episodes before admitting the urge had passed. Both are good shows.

As for the second paragraph, you asked and answered your own question. It's just a shoehorn to explain why we never heard about the massive leap in tech that is the spore drive even in passing reference and to a lesser extent the Discovery. It's also supposed to include Mary Burnham in regards to Spock personally but that doesn't make sense either as why him discussing his childhood foster sibling would be included. I think the inclusion of Burnham was silly but no worse than Sybok but hamfisting an excuse like that compounds the mistake (similar to killing Dr. Hue, one of the few characters I enjoyed in season 1, and then bringing him back half a dozen episodes later cheapens the death further).

Season 3 is where finally where/when they should have started the show but I have no faith in them keeping the ship and crew there. I didn't watch but I'm hearing that Georgiou is in the future as well (can someone confirm?), If that's the case and the character is still supposed to be heading up a Section 31 show in a year or two, I have *zero* faith that the DISCO ship and crew will stay segregated in the future where they can't feth up existing canon since we know they'll have to figure out a way back to get the character back to her own time.

**Formosa**

AndrewGPaul wrote:
Formosa wrote:
outright lie

Such as?

"We love playing within canon"

STD is not canon with old trek, its a lie for marketing purposes.

"We’re farther than any Trek show has ever gone"

Because its generic sci fi number 4 with a trek skin.

" I also had experience working on the [J.J. Abrams] films where we were stuck with canonical problems"

Because you decided to set STD in the JJ verse and the backlash made you 360 and claim it was prime trek, you have not stuck to cannon at all, another lie.

"We knew how Kirk had died, and we wondered how we could put him in jeopardy to make it feel real"

That is why JJ made it a new universe and licencing money.

"That’s what led us to go with an alternate timeline; suddenly we could tell the story in a very unpredictable way"

Exactly why you made STD an alternate timeline.

"That’s the same thought process that went into jumping 950 years into the future"

So you could write yourself out of the corner you put yourself in and try to get back the baseline Trek fans.

" We’re now completely free of canon, and we have a whole new universe to explore."

No you are not, you are still bound by the canon of the preceding centuries.

"[The Picard series] going amazingly."

No it is not, its already behind schedule, another lie.

Klutzman needs to be sacked and the entire writing crew needs to be brought up to speed, I firmly blame the failures of STD on him and his bad management.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AduroT wrote:
I’m really curious what this thing is they’re going to find that’s worse than the AI that wiped out all sentient life from the galaxy.

Rumours are pointing to the Borg.... yeah....

**LordofHats**

Formosa wrote:
"We love playing within canon"

STD is not canon with old trek, its a lie for marketing purposes.

It's literally impossible to lie about this. Canon is a double edged sword. Fans demand it be consistent with their interpretations, but creators generally don't care what they interpretation is and have full power to declare anything, even contradictory things, canonical. George Lucas basically ran into the same thing in the closing years of Star Wars (though I'd say he was more vindictive and STD feels more like laziness/lets do it because it seems like a cool idea).

Really the egregious part of the statement isn't that it's a lie at all, but a rather big red flag that the guy doesn't pay any attention to fan forums. Which isn't uncommon, but I find it hard to believe that he's completely unaware of complaints about the series' fast and loose attitude with consistency while still going out of his way to make statements like this.

Because its generic sci fi number 4 with a trek skin.

It really seems like the second season went right off the deep end into sci-fi clicheville.

Because you decided to set STD in the JJ verse and the backlash made you 360 and claim it was prime trek, you have not stuck to cannon at all, another lie.

Still waiting for something that isn't some YouTube personalities randomly assembled self-serving conjecture on this claim.

If we're really going to start up this topic again (it went so well last time), I'm just going to point out as before that the entire narrative behind this claim appears to be nothing more than self serving hatedom, inventing an narrative to make something fans don't like more hate worthy because the real narrative is far less interesting (that the writers are just lazy).

"That’s what led us to go with an alternate timeline; suddenly we could tell the story in a very unpredictable way"

I'm not sure how that's a lie. It's a stupid thought process, especially in the way he's trying to use it to justify a plot that started in the realm of "cringe" and has dived head first into "groan."

"That’s the same thought process that went into jumping 950 years into the future"

Now this one is golden.

I really feel like there's this jump the shark moment here, where it becomes really obvious that everything I hate about STD, is the result of a creative team that jumps at anything that seems like a good idea, but like a bad fan fic writer never bothers to fully think through how that idea is suppose to work. Lots of good ideas just don't. They're too convoluted, too contrived, or too outside the realm of what the viewing audience actually wants/expects and STD seems to have managed to stumble into all three pit falls in a very short amount of time.

" We’re now completely free of canon, and we have a whole new universe to explore."

That's not a lie either, though also a stupid thought process given what's already happened. I enjoy a previous comment about someone wanting to watch BSG, cause I'm trying to figure out when Starbuck is going to magically appear (season 3-4 Starbuck, the awful one who wasn't really Starbuck... or was she? Who knows the writers were probably making it up as they went) and team up with Mary Sue Not a Vulcan Vulcan Human to save the galaxy from the machines by traveling back in time to rescue some punk as kid from future assassins this story got more and more generic and I struggle to fathom why anyone would go this route with Star Trek of all properties.

It's almost like he's just shoving middle finger at all the canon complaints surrounding the series, and while a lot of those complaints are more fanon than anything, it's a pretty dick way to respond to the fanbase.

"[The Picard series] going amazingly."

Not a lie either, though I think is thinking is wishful. Every piece of info that's come out about this series since it was announced has made it look more and more unappealing. It's like someone saw Star Trek Renegades and thought it was good and should be emulated somehow and that person needs to be fired immediately.

Cause Renegades was god awful and I lost all respect for Tim Russ and Walter Koeing for getting behind it like they did. Picardo gets a pass only because The Doctor was amazing.

**Vaktathi**

I finished season 2 last night.

It was very pretty, had lots of cool space scenes, and was about as convoluted, forced, and awkwardly retconned a plot job as I expected. That said, I kinda expect that out of Star Trek. I think ultimately I liked the first season a whole lot more.

**Mr Morden**

I really enjoyed Season 2 - it was really sad to see how bad season 2 became.