I'm more than mildly annoyed that S5 is the last season of Lower Decks but these numbnutz will greenlight something that looks gakky in the trailer like a whole freaking show based on S31 and inspired by a single performance from an actress that was cool for 1 season of a mediocre show about half a decade ago.
It's like they're trying to make Section 31 look like the Star Trek version of the Suicide Squad and not this morally bankrupt black ops group that is unofficially sanctioned by the Federation.
It was a cool thing to introduce in DS9 with Bashir and it popping up in Enterprise worked with the story of that episode but Discovery really beansed it and now we're stuck with the mess.
31 doesn’t look Bad per say… But it Definitely doesn’t look like Star Trek. Not even remotely. It looks more like a Guardians of the Galaxy ripoff. Or one of the old Sci Fi channel space shows.
Lower Decks… Man I’m gonna miss it when it’s done. Been so good. I’ll have to try and keep an eye out for what this team does next.
SNW. Fun teaser. Standard kind of Star Trek problem and quite predictable where it was gonna end. Show ain’t Perfect, but it’s better than the one it spun off from.
Even though I'm still a big fan of the Picard series, I have to say that Lower Decks has been the most Star Trek thing that just feels so much like a wonderful mix of Original Series, TNG, DS9 and a shot of Voyager. Basically distilled classic Star Trek.
It feels like Trek written by fans of Trek who really get why and what worked in the classic scripts and just recreated it.
It doesn't feel like creators who had to tell their own story from the ground up or who wanted to write something else and had to use the ST logo to get funding or who are building it by committee of managers or such.
Why would the change to Vulcan change their haircut? How would it automatically bestow the effects of Kolinahr? Which one is going to get hit with Pon Farr?
Ahtman wrote: Why would the change to Vulcan change their haircut? How would it automatically bestow the effects of Kolinahr? Which one is going to get hit with Pon Farr?
Ahtman wrote: Why would the change to Vulcan change their haircut? How would it automatically bestow the effects of Kolinahr? Which one is going to get hit with Pon Farr?
Why did Klingons sing in K-Pop* and not the more obvious, thematic and probably funny Klingon Opera?
*Or so I’m told. All I know is that scene didn’t work for me and that piece of music sucked.
Ahtman wrote: Why would the change to Vulcan change their haircut? How would it automatically bestow the effects of Kolinahr? Which one is going to get hit with Pon Farr?
Why did Klingons sing in K-Pop* and not the more obvious, thematic and probably funny Klingon Opera?
*Or so I’m told. All I know is that scene didn’t work for me and that piece of music sucked.
I didn't like that episode and it was certainly just as questionable a choice. My guess to the Klingon question is "trying to be cool" and the DNA altering solution imbuing cultural elements that aren't genetic to be "lazy writing".
One thing I always find interesting about fantasy races in a LOT of sci-fi and fantasy is how one-dimensional we often have them presented as and how we reinforce that presentation.
Eg Klingons have Klingon Opera, therefore all musical displays should be Klingon Opera.
Meanwhile humans are often presented as the quintessential of diversity. Capable of having everything. Indeed often as not its presented as their primary strength that they don't excel in one area, but do everything.
Whilst in reality Klingons would likely have LOTS of different kinds of music; plus having been part of the Federation for a good few generations (on and off); they'd have had cultural influences as well. So sure perhaps Klingons have Klingon Opera, but they also really love "earth style 2000s era Kpop"
well, we know Klingons are big fans of Shakespeare and claim that their interpretation of his work is superior to the original (which is actually a historical referece to them being based on cold war russians) so they liking K-Pop and making their own versions of it is not something far off
It was just jarring. It was of course a Very Silly Episode, knew it was a Very Silly Episode, and thus should only be judged as a Very Silly Episode.
But that bit was the wrong sort of cringe to me,
Is there a reason Klingons wouldn’t have a wide range of musical tastes? Of course not. It’s just for me, K-Pop was a step well over the boundary, to the point it ruined the joke for me.
My preference would’ve been to play on the “what is happening” surprise. Think Monty Python and the Holy Grail, specifically Robin’s Minstrels. Where every time the Klingons go to speak, it’s a brief burst of operatic singing, followed by mild embarrassment.
But. Very Silly Episode is Very Silly so it’s not a deal breaker.
Ahtman wrote: I don't care that it was K-pop I just don't like musicals, for the most parts.
Musicals are one of the more bizarre obsessions of the last decade that mostly seem like something the people making the material want to do moreso than anything the audience really desires.
I mean, Rocky Horror Show, Little Shop of Horrors and Repo! are musicals, as are the more twee and dare I say pedestrian ones. And stuff like Beetlejuice The Musical* and The Producers are their own thing in a much wider genre.
One could also say Guardians of the Galaxy, with its strong reliance on matching Songs From The Hit Parade to Scene Action, effectively, is one of its defining aspects.
So to write them all off in one stroke feels unfair.
*Let’s see if I can listen to this one without blubbering like I did in the theatre.
Yeah, I think the genre matters more to me than whether a movie is a musical or not. I don’t have any desire to see some Dear Evan Hanson/Rent/Mean Girls/Color Putple types of musicals. But if you give me something with horror or Sci Fi elements, I’ll make some time.
There’s a Wicked movie coming out next year (I think), but the trailers almost seem to be playing down the musical aspect. I think the studios realize people aren’t into Musicals as a thing.
Ahtman wrote: I don't care that it was K-pop I just don't like musicals, for the most parts.
Musicals are one of the more bizarre obsessions of the last decade that mostly seem like something the people making the material want to do moreso than anything the audience really desires.
Jump to 1:02seconds cause for some reason the share timestamp link isn't working
Ahtman wrote: I don't care that it was K-pop I just don't like musicals, for the most parts.
Musicals are one of the more bizarre obsessions of the last decade that mostly seem like something the people making the material want to do moreso than anything the audience really desires.
Jump to 1:02seconds cause for some reason the share timestamp link isn't working
You know, now I must concede that I generally like this series and Hazbin Hotel was amazing and managed to win me over despite musicals really just not generally being my thing >.>
I mean, Rocky Horror Show, Little Shop of Horrors and Repo! are musicals, as are the more twee and dare I say pedestrian ones. And stuff like Beetlejuice The Musical* and The Producers are their own thing in a much wider genre.
One could also say Guardians of the Galaxy, with its strong reliance on matching Songs From The Hit Parade to Scene Action, effectively, is one of its defining aspects.
So to write them all off in one stroke feels unfair.
In no way is Guardians of the Galaxy a musical. Using popular music heavily in your movie or TV show doesn't make it a musical so I don't think it's relevant to bring it up.
My problem with pretty much every TV musical episode is they have no purpose or soul to them. Very occasionally the random bunch of actors on the show all happen to be good singers and it works as a piece of entertainment, but that's vanishingly rare. If you're going to make a musical episode it had better be an original score and actually progress the plot in some way, otherwise it just feels like self-indulgence.
Speaking of music, the S31 trailer feels especially odd to me because of the choice of what I assume is a modern popular song. It just seems really out of place in a ST setting.
Ahtman wrote: I don't care that it was K-pop I just don't like musicals, for the most parts.
Musicals are one of the more bizarre obsessions of the last decade that mostly seem like something the people making the material want to do moreso than anything the audience really desires.
People love well done musicals, movie or broadway. It's the musical episode thing that went a little overboard but those seem to mostly be petering out. Granted some are fantastic (looking at you Flash and Psych musical episodes) either because they are done super well or are done with a broadway cast that happens to be doing a tv show. Some are dire and some are just fine. I enjoyed the SNW one and would have ranked it just below the upper tier of such things.
Ahtman wrote: I don't care that it was K-pop I just don't like musicals, for the most parts.
Musicals are one of the more bizarre obsessions of the last decade that mostly seem like something the people making the material want to do moreso than anything the audience really desires.
People love well done musicals, movie or broadway. It's the musical episode thing that went a little overboard but those seem to mostly be petering out. Granted some are fantastic (looking at you Flash and Psych musical episodes) either because they are done super well or are done with a broadway cast that happens to be doing a tv show. Some are dire and some are just fine. I enjoyed the SNW one and would have ranked it just below the upper tier of such things.
When the episode came out I was more specific that musical TV episodes are what I generally don't enjoy. I'm not angry I saw it but I wouldn't watch it again. Some of my favorite films are musicals, and plays hit different.
So just finished the last season of season of Discovery. Ya , I know it’s been a while but I didn’t want to get Paramount+ for a show I didn’t really like that much. It was an ok season I guess but the ending was kind of weird. There’s sort of three endings.
Spoiler:
The ending the the usual saving the universe storyline which was fine. Then the flash forward to Burnham’s happy ever after ending - also fine. But then why does she have to go out with Discovery to the middle of no where by herself? Seems like a plot seed that is not a plot seed?
KamikazeCanuck wrote: So just finished the last season of season of Discovery. Ya , I know it’s been a while but I didn’t want to get Paramount+ for a show I didn’t really like that much. It was an ok season I guess but the ending was kind of weird. There’s sort of three endings.
Spoiler:
The ending the the usual saving the universe storyline which was fine. Then the flash forward to Burnham’s happy ever after ending - also fine. But then why does she have to go out with Discovery to the middle of no where by herself? Seems like a plot seed that is not a plot seed?
Spoiler:
Burnham’s happy ever after was added when it was confirmed that it would be the last ever episode, and Discovery was left unmanned in deep space to fulfil the Short Trek episode Calypso.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: So just finished the last season of season of Discovery. Ya , I know it’s been a while but I didn’t want to get Paramount+ for a show I didn’t really like that much. It was an ok season I guess but the ending was kind of weird. There’s sort of three endings.
Spoiler:
The ending the the usual saving the universe storyline which was fine. Then the flash forward to Burnham’s happy ever after ending - also fine. But then why does she have to go out with Discovery to the middle of no where by herself? Seems like a plot seed that is not a plot seed?
Spoiler:
Burnham’s happy ever after was added when it was confirmed that it would be the last ever episode, and Discovery was left unmanned in deep space to fulfil the Short Trek episode Calypso.
Oh ok. Thanks. I didn't even know about these Short Treks. Seems like something that should be on Youtube but are not...
It's hard to say much about it. It doesn't have the chance to get dramatic moments like other Trek that stick in your memory but it's a real good laugh every time.
It's goofy and that's perfect because you can't appreciate Trek without going "well that's just silly" and enjoying it.
On the one hand, I always wanted them to address the Jennifer situation after Season 3.
On the other hand, this was not what I expected and it's kind of so dumb it's neither dramatic or funny. Like the end of it was good imo, but the set up and follow through was largely stupid in an eye rollingly this is dumb kind of way.
The Boimler side plot was just funny because Ransom is like the Randy Marsh of Lower Decks except they never showed him so much they overused him and made him no longer funny.
Not related to newer shows, but I put on TOS in the background recently and I have to say that Sulu's character arc from Bailey's replacement (The Corbomite Maneuver) to being the captain of a starship that proclaims 'Fly her apart then!' in The Undiscovered Country is easily my favorite character development from TOS. It's funny to compare him to Chekov because from the start Sulu is relatively no-nonsense and competent while Chekov is a goofball well into the films. They didn't go all in on character development in the same manner as modern TV, but TOS had some interesting, understated character writing as far as secondary and tertiary characters went.
Except for the women. Through the first 12 episodes of s1 and it's worse than I remembered.
ASIAK, it's not really a rumor anymore and more of a known open secret from the time Rodenberry worked on the shows. I remember reading through Memory Alpha way back 20 years ago when the site was first going up and there were whole sections on some episodes discussing the behind the scenes rumors on what was going down and at this point since Rodenberry has passed others have come out and essentially confirmed that's what happened.
Sulu and Chekhov's arcs are going an interesting way with the movies
Like Sulu being the one working hard to get a captains chair and when he is almost there out of friendship with Kirk needs to start from scratch and again makes it even getting the ship he wants
while Chekov somehow want to outsmart everyone and be in command from the start makes to to 1st officer and gets stuck there after brain damage and it might be the friendship with Kirk as the only reason why he is still an officer on active duty
and for Grace Lee Whitney, her character made it from NCO in TOS and TMP to Lieutenant Commander on the Excelsior
LordofHats wrote: ASIAK, it's not really a rumor anymore and more of a known open secret from the time Rodenberry worked on the shows. I remember reading through Memory Alpha way back 20 years ago when the site was first going up and there were whole sections on some episodes discussing the behind the scenes rumors on what was going down and at this point since Rodenberry has passed others have come out and essentially confirmed that's what happened.
Not trying to downplay or excuse Roddenberry's behaviour, but I'm pretty sure that was just business as usual across the board for Hollywood at the time.
By all accounts it didn't change much until recently, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if it still hasn't changed much in reality.
It still is imo. Maybe not as overtly, but I don't think the current generation of producers, actors, and crews will be spared some of them turning out to have a real unsavory side to them in 20 plus years when any interest in obscuring it has faded.
Still can talk about anything star trek in here? Sat down and watched the motion picture the other day with my son, it was a fun experience. The kids still mostly will only sit down to watch TAS, but I'm trying to get them to watch TOS.
I only just watched the first season of Picard recently, after watching all five seasons of Discovery. Discovery was very meh, there were some good moments but overall it was more spectacle than substance. Picard, at least the first season, was a bit better. I've heard season 2 was less good, but I'll get myself through it.
ZergSmasher wrote: I only just watched the first season of Picard recently, after watching all five seasons of Discovery. Discovery was very meh, there were some good moments but overall it was more spectacle than substance. Picard, at least the first season, was a bit better. I've heard season 2 was less good, but I'll get myself through it.
I could not stomach Discovery by the end of Season 2 - Picard had some really good ideas and characters - and some truely awful ones - Rafaella Musiker stands out as one of the worst in ST for me.....
To be fair Rafaella is basically a "broken" character and a very rare example of an addict with a broken past that we see in Star Trek. Personally I think its a challenging role to play because a lot of elements will end up with her doing things and having attitudes that are not your ST norm and are not endearing.
True, its one of those "she was never there but she always was" characters which can make her hard to like. Then again Picard Season 1 is set a good chunk of time after TNG that there's certainly room for growth of new relations and all.
Plus Picard was openly trying to avoid contacting and abusing his privileges toward his old crew. So it fits that he'd reach out to friends and such that we likely wouldn't have seen through his TNG time period and life.
I think the only sad thing is that we never see her really revisit her family after season 1. Which is honestly a little bit of a failing of all 3 seasons - a lot of the sub and main plots get introduced and resolved but never revisited.
Spoiler:
Like how you've a massive Borg threat and they don't go rushing to contact the Friendly Borg sitting at the mouth of the wormhole for help/advice.
It's also somewhat notable that the whole fleet appeared smaller than the one at the end of Picard season 1 - even if they were copy-paste ships
Thinking a bit further? Ro could be another candidate (though she does turn up eventually).
She had a tumultuous relationship with Picard, and was of course intended to take Kira Nerys’ role in DS9.
Given she nicked off to infiltrate, and later join, The Maquis, there’s a potential “redemption” arc there (though whilst many of their actions were reprehensible, the Maquis’ fight was not without genuine moral merit).
Personally the only real continuation I want from Picard are
Spoiler:
A series going into the new transwarp portal to another Galaxy. Because right now the writers feel like they are "done" with the Milky Way in that they keep pushing for remakes/reboots and such. So give them a whole new Galaxy to explore - perhaps a series that's monster-of-the-week like DS9 was going to be with its Wormhole. .
And of course it should be Seven and her crew who champion this new exploration. The idea that former Borg is allowed access to explore first by the alliance with the "good book" is almost a perfect way to wrap up seasons 2 and 3 of Picard into something new and bold
I’d like to see Discovery discounted almost entirely.
It definitely had its moments, particularly with the Mirror Universe*. But the future stuff was particularly if not spectacularly dull.
So….the Burn was caused by a Kelpian throwing a tantrum? K
Oh and our nacelles are now all floaty, because programmable matter? K
And whilst it hurtled waaaaaay into the future? It’s still set stuff in stone which doesn’t need to be set in stone. If they do another series following on from Picard, we know a bunch of stuff that now can’t happen.
But then, I still wish they’d properly followed up on post-Dominion War Alpha Quadrant. That war fundamentally altered the balance of power, and saw previously unseen levels of cooperation between the three big players by getting the Romulans onboard.
Picard does (again, eventually) pick up some of those pieces. But where’s the exploration and cooperation in the Gamma Quadrant? What happened to the Dominion after it was forced to stand down?
DS9 left a powerful legacy that I don't think any writer has wanted to dare challenge or try to work with. Picard is the closest we get to anything really exploring the aftershock and effects.
I guess part of the issue is that a LOT of the actors have moved on and got older. Bringing them together is not easy - heck it seems like it took 2 full seasons of Picard before they could get a good chunk of the old crew together for season 3.
It's hard to really explore DS9 without having Sisco, Kira, Odo and others appear. Even if just in supporting roles.
Because in the end its not just the story we want its also seeing where those characters went because they were so pivotal in the story.
Last time we saw Sisko, he went to be with the Prophets, at least for a while.
Now I understand the actor has shied away from Trek since, so getting him back for a series seems….unlikely. But a first episode cameo, as we had with Picard at the start of DS9? That might be an appealing prospect with a big enough bag o’cash.
Of course, Rene Auberjonois is no longer with us, and I’m not sure anyone else could convincingly play Odo, despite the whole “he’s a shapeshifter so could be a talking chair I suppose”.
I do think Trek has suffered from the change to TV viewing habits since its 90’s heyday.
TOS, TNG, and Voyager were all entirely episodic. Yes they had set history, and that informed what came after. And DS9, like Babylon 5 was an early trailblazer in arcing storylines and strong (like, staggeringly strong, to the point it’s rarely been equalled, let alone better) character development.
But now? Arcing shows, and the desire for people to binge watch, are kind of the norm. And not all such shows are equal.
We also have far shorter seasons on streaming, as you don’t need that syndication episode count. Sometimes that’s good, as it means less filler guff made just to up the count. Sometimes though? It means those odd, intended to be one-off characters and episodes which caught the audience interest are trimmed out. Though of course that thought is purely speculative, on account I’m arguing that something wasn’t made would’ve been ace.
And I think that’s where DS9 really found its strength. The arcing stories and character developments were solid. But some of its best moments came from the asides and B plots.
Immediate thoughts there turn to Quark, Rom, Nog, Ishka and Grand Nagus Zeke. In fact, most if not all Ferengi centric episodes were really enjoyable, but didn’t often tie into the main plots.
They did however provide significant development to one of the lesser powers, and indeed one which was frankly laughable when it first started out in TNG. It turned them into one of the most interesting and detailed cultures in the Alpha Quadrant, and some of the more interesting characters.
Just think. If Quark, Rom and Nog all remained just background bit players? We’d have missed out on the Root Beer analogy, and Quark’s (entirely accurate) observations about humanity and its failings.
Those scenes were reflective, and showed us how other species view the Federation.
Three scenes, all Quark centric. All really interesting insights which, if he had remained a background second fiddle, we’d have been denied.
It definitely had its moments, particularly with the Mirror Universe*. But the future stuff was particularly if not spectacularly dull.
The dystopic future Star Trek is the worst form of Star Trek. Go make a not-Warhammer series with that gak. It's all kittens, lolipops and rainbows over here not dark edging cringe teenager horsegak
DS9 dug into the reality of the Federation quite nicely. And it managed to develop not just multiple characters, but at least four cultures (Bajoran, Cardassian, Ferengi and Dominion, with depending on how you look at it, the Dominion being multiple cultures).
About the only race not give much exploration would be the Breen, who being a mystery was kind of the point of them, and so I can give the writers a pass on that one.
Yeah Breen being a mystery is kind of their thing (one of the few left in ST). Even Lower Decks didn't try and break that with them when they touched on an encounter with them.
Plus the Breen came into the war late as allies. So there wasn't the same multiple seasons to have them around and explore them at a slower pace and peel back the veil of their secrets.
Though was it the last season of Discovery which not only revealed what they look like under their Boussh costumes*, but managed to make it super disappointing? Or am thinking of another spin off?
*I still don’t know how they got away with that one, because it’s not even close to being subtle. Spesh when Major Kira impersonates one!
the main problem with arcing seasons at the moment is that they hardly ever have the right balance of content
like with Picard, the full seasons doesn't have more content or development than a single TNG episode, just takes 10 times as long and still ends without clearing up everything or picking up lose ends later
on the other side, Discovery kind of tried saving the galaxy in each episode that got boring soon and no one really cared at the end
overall, a good show needs to have the right balance between episodic and season arcs to have room for character development and showing the wider world, and keep things interesting with a bigger story
Hence why Orville is a good show, it gets the right balance to explore each characters culture but still have a story arc
I get the feeling part of the Orvilles strength is potentially Seth's influence and confidence at getting further seasons. Picard felt like each season had to justify the next which meant doing big long running arcs is hard.
It's the same issue Babalon 5 hit way back in the day. You can't guarantee that you'll get X number of seasons right out of the gate which is often why season 1 is quite self contained. Even then you might not get a golden handshake of X number of seasons after that to really develop long arcing stories.
DS9 likely had some safety net because it was the only ST at the time (not one of several like we have now) and it was in the shows prime so there was a good momentum behind it.
It likely goes deeper than that too; writers and producers and such likely avoid long arcing storylines because series that end mid season or get messed up (looking at you Firefly for a prime example of the crazy mess that can happen to a show when higher ups want to kill it). When you've that pressure there's likely a big amount of influences that encourages short, snappy stories and plot wrapups and such. Which then makes it really hard to try and break out of that mindset when creating a new show.
You can see some of the influence when you see interviews of TV show teams that land a film contract and suddenly they don't have 40mins they have 1.5-2 hours to work with and its a huge shift in mindset and approach they have to learn to work with that much time in one go
Have decided to put my Paramount+ sub to good use, and watch the various Borg episodes. Because I want to pinpoint when I felt they first became boring.
The problem as I see it with the Borg is they never got to have their own DS9 style series. The closest we get is Voyager and because of the mechanics of that series there's only 1 starfleet ship for them to ever engage with so they kind of have to always fail against 1 ship. The rest of the time its mostly against the Enterprise that they have to fail - again 1 ship.
We never really see the Borg do a Dominion style invasion where you get an actual sense that they've led to political and social changes or there's there's a good chance they can actually wipe out a major faction or destroy the Federation etc... We never really see the Borg go to War.
We get hints it happened a bit at the start of Picard series 1 with the Romulan situation; but one downside is a LOT of that happens "off screen" and again its 1 cube, 1 group of Borg.
What we really needed to make them feel a threat was a proper invasion. Multiple Cubes; multiple lost battles; lost worlds and CORE/Major lost elements. Not just fringe "you only heard of it this episode and never again" worlds; or single ships taking out entire Cubes.
The Battle of Worf should have been one of many battles against the Borg over a prolonged series akin to how we saw the Dominion War play out.
Is that not partially explained by Species 8472 causing a major hiccup though?
That (and I’ll be watching them in order, so will be a day or four before I can really comment further ) had it not been for that considerable spanner in the works, they might well have come after the Alpha quadrant mob handed?
Yeah but again that's happening a lot offscreen and once more its basically just Voyager solving things on its own.
Sure there are story reasons why we never got a full Borg Invasion, but the thing is because we never had a huge prolonged war they always remained trapped in that "baddy of the week" and "two episode end of season special baddy" Category.
Even with the films they are quite small adventures. First Contact is basically a handful of Borg on the Enterprise*. The longest we actually get is Picard seasons 2 and 3 though then its still predominantly a very small number of Borg at once and its all resolved very quickly.
Again no prolonged war stress like we got with the Dominion.
I've said it before - for all their vast power, influence, numbers and threat; the Borg never actually invaded the Alpha Quadrant. A few single cubes were sent; a few scout ships. But we never got them fully invade with multiple cubes; taking worlds; building a front line; tearing up whole fleets and more. Yes they are a threat, but increasingly they are a threat we are told about rather than shown. With the greater reserve of their forces being held back. Voyager got the closest and evne then they ended the whole season on a virus that wiped out the Borg in basically one hit.
*yes there's a Cube that's defeated right at the very start
Forgot they kicked off in Q Who, not Best of Both Worlds.
But as an amusing(ish) aside, anyone else sometime see the intro bit for TNG, and think it makes the Enterprise look like it’s trapped in some hellish one way system?
I think the problem with the Borg is that they are the ultimate losing scenario.
With the Dominion there's cultural and political tensions between Gamme Quadrant races and their Cardassian allies. The addition of the Breen to the alliance causing more instability and distrust. The Dominion's use of Cardassian troops much in the same way as they use the Jem'Hadar and Vorta without caring the Cardassians can't replace their losses like the clone races can.
Planets and sectors taken by the Dominion can be retaken or have local resistance fighters (like on Bajor).
None of that applies for the Borg. They're the ultimate NPC enemy. They don't feel, they don't have politics, they don't have alliances, they don't have any aspect of normal war that can be influenced.
They're a major threat but a seriously boring one from a story telling perspective.
If you take the fall of Betazed from DS9, it's a big deal because a major (at least in the TNG era) Federation world has fallen to the Dominion.
But it can still be retaken by the Federation if the Dominion is beaten back.
If the Borg take Betazed the whole planet is a write off. It's population is gone. There's nothing to win back. It's boring.
And the Borg don’t Want to invade, to wipe everything out. If you get wiped out you stop advancing and they don’t get new stuff to steal. They have their whole big region of turf and they weren’t even conquering their own quadrant. They just occasionally ice cream scoop out a sampling of the latest developments to see what’s new and cool and useful, while their supreme awesomeness only encourages people to develop more/faster.
Gert wrote: I think the problem with the Borg is that they are the ultimate losing scenario.
With the Dominion there's cultural and political tensions between Gamme Quadrant races and their Cardassian allies. The addition of the Breen to the alliance causing more instability and distrust. The Dominion's use of Cardassian troops much in the same way as they use the Jem'Hadar and Vorta without caring the Cardassians can't replace their losses like the clone races can.
Planets and sectors taken by the Dominion can be retaken or have local resistance fighters (like on Bajor).
None of that applies for the Borg. They're the ultimate NPC enemy. They don't feel, they don't have politics, they don't have alliances, they don't have any aspect of normal war that can be influenced.
They're a major threat but a seriously boring one from a story telling perspective.
If you take the fall of Betazed from DS9, it's a big deal because a major (at least in the TNG era) Federation world has fallen to the Dominion.
But it can still be retaken by the Federation if the Dominion is beaten back.
If the Borg take Betazed the whole planet is a write off. It's population is gone. There's nothing to win back. It's boring.
That’s a good point; the Borg are more like a plague or natural disaster. You don’t liberate worlds from the Borg, you rebuild them (and at that point, is it even worth it?)
Clearly powerful, and mysterious. And that mystery is tantalising. Guinan provides some much needed exposition.
Best of Both Worlds Pt 1
Now we really start to see just how serious a threat they are. Assimilation grants them the victim’s knowledge and experiences. Get the right victim, and a war can be over before it’s begun.
Have decided to put my Paramount+ sub to good use, and watch the various Borg episodes. Because I want to pinpoint when I felt they first became boring.
Watched Wrath of Khan with my kids after bribing them with being able to watch "flight of dragons" afterwards.
I still kinda get bothered by how "nerfed" the enterprise is in the first two movies because they're still working the bugs out for refits and/or it gets disabled really quickly. But maybe that just makes it a good compelling movie because it bothers me so much. At least we haven't gotten to the third movie that shouldn't exist... they went and revealed Kirk has a son and then kill him and destroy the enterprise in one whole movie, its like cooking a delicious meal just to flip the table over.
Threat considerably escalated where a single Cube obliterates loads of Federation ships with seemingly contemptuous ease, and little if any lasting damage.
But we also start to see potential exploits (being able to use Locutus to switch them off, then create a charging loop).
Still an interesting threat and species.
Next up? I Borg. Which I’ll admit I don’t have especially fond memories of.
Overread wrote: To be fair Rafaella is basically a "broken" character and a very rare example of an addict with a broken past that we see in Star Trek. Personally I think its a challenging role to play because a lot of elements will end up with her doing things and having attitudes that are not your ST norm and are not endearing.
"Broken" is fine - but have her deal with that not be given everything cos... reasons
Putting a neurotic mess struggling with addiction in charge of warships seems stupid even by the most nepotistic Star Fleet standards
The Borg are always interesting in TNG. They got overused in Voyager and became just the badguy of the week. For me, they started to jump the shark when 4 members of Voyager got assimilated on purpose to infiltrate them for some reason. Like if you can do that on purpose and come back from it then they have lost their menace.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: The Borg are always interesting in TNG. They got overused in Voyager and became just the badguy of the week. For me, they started to jump the shark when 4 members of Voyager got assimilated on purpose to infiltrate them for some reason. Like if you can do that on purpose and come back from it then they have lost their menace.
Part of the ethos of Star Trek is that no one is evil and they all just need to join the Federation and be civilised....a more subtle version of the old colonial ideas - its even on ocassion called out on the show by Quark etc.
It does mean that bad guys are always becoming "good guys"...or at least not as bad guys unlike 40k or Fantasy where there are unredemable bad guys
It’s also demonstrated whenever an alien or hybrid crew member is torn between their culture and the Federation’s ideals.
Now, duty aside? It’s always presented as the alien culture being lesser and objectively the worse choice.
This is best explored with Worf, where his actions can be entirely in-keeping with Klingon culture, but clash with his duties and obligations as a Starfleer officer.
It’s then bungled with Torres, where the Klingon part of her outlook is always in the wrong.
I think what makes Worf really work as a character is the fact that his knowledge of Klingon culture is not from firsthand experience for a lot of the show. He was raised by humans, and what he knows of Klingon culture was from reading the histories and legends of the Klingon and this colours his performance and perception of Klingon identity. "Klingons do not laugh" for example.
This then causes him untold issues when he actually experiences how Klingon culture actually is in practice.
Worf is basically like if someone learned about Bushido and the honour of samurai from revisionist history texts of the late 19th, early 20th century and was then dropped into the Sengoku period when they went to see it firsthand.
Yet, his view on it does influence other Klingons in how they act.
Whilst a good few years down the line, his initial contact with Martok, where he shames Martok’s son’s behaviour, and straight up tells him “I cannot take what he does not have” in terms of the son’s honour is one of my favourite bits of any show.
I don’t want to do Worf a disservice by saying he has a childlike view of Klingon culture, but there is a certain naive purity which works for him, because he’s not been raised in the complexities of house rivalries and that. And so he has a habit of being able to cut through a lot of the politics by simply not knowing it’s there in the first place, instead going simply by what is honourable.
The thing is Worf knows about Klingon Culture from outside impressions and written accounts. He aims to behave as a Klingon should behave.
It might not even be a fully romanticised impression, its one built by reading the rules of being a Klingon and actually aspiring and trying to live by them.
That's why his behaviour can influence other Klingons because he's basically behaving "as he should" with some elements of Federation upbringing mixed in here and there. Which works because by that stage the Federation and Klingons have been allies for quite some time.
On one hand you can say he has a child-like understanding; on another you could say he has a pure understanding. Or undiluted by years of drift from the ideal that follow.
We see this in regular society too - there are laws and rules by which we should live, but various factors arise which causes most of us to twist/bend or adapt those rules. Go long enough and within social groups and those twists and turns become new "rules" that might not be formally written down, but the group accepts as modifications. Go long enough and you can drift quite a long way from the original which means if the original gets brought back up it can be embarrassingly far if its pointed out.
Basically most people treat rules like the PotC Pirates Code. That is until Worf/Edward Teague turns up to remind you that they ARE rules
Worf can effectively be seen as a proxy for the children of immigrants or of minorities who, feeling disconnected geographically from what they perceive is their cultural heritage and isolated and othered by the culture they are in, go hardcore into their heritage culture without any firsthand experience of what that culture actually is, based often on hearsay and stereotypes.
Contemporary to the time that TNG was airing you had this happening in parts of the black community of the US, with afrocentric thought quite prominent in African American culture at the time. This performance of blackness, of "African" identity, was often based on a stereotypical perception of "African" identity as a generalised whole, rather than of the individual cultures that make up the peoples of Africa in reality. African American descendants of slaves would not know which African culture they had descended from, after all, so many created their own, not even necessarily consciously, by lifting elements from all over the continent. Taking a particular colour palette of clothing from here, a style of clothing from there etc.
While I do think that they did a good job with klingons in TNG, but I still don't find their transformation from bitter enemies of the federation into reluctant allies. In TOS they conquered (and enslaved) worlds and had presumably done so in the past and seemed like they were going to continue to do so if not for organians, and I know the organians had been mentioned in books but their imposed peace between klingons and federation never seemed to be mentioned after that episode.
Yes they blew up their moon in a movie, but they were an empire, that explosion should have only effected one planet.
Its kinda like how the romulans getting blown up from one super nova never made sense to me either, the event is too thin of a chain for the heavy weight in story telling its supposed to hold up.
Praxis blowing up was kind of the end of the road.
It wasn't that it was just a moon, it was a massive energy project that used huge amounts of materials and funding that ultimately evaporated (or exploded).
The Klingons couldn't keep up their military spending to match the Federation and rebuild its shattered economy.
It was an allegory for the fall of the USSR.
The Klingons were also only sort of allies after almost a hundred years and there was constant tensions between them and the Federation which were exploited by the Dominion leading to the Federation/Klingon war in DS9. So allies yes but ones that took great efforts to keep going.
There’s also the peaceable expansion of The Federation, bring ever more cultures and technologies into the one happy family. Like a Benign Borg.
That’s a difficult foe to face, because it’s comprised of many species, many technologies etc, and it’s an even harder foe to keep pace with, as its method of expansion is inherently less costly than that of conquering worlds - and typically comes without the need to continuously watch your back in case of rebellion on a subjugated world.
And where the Federation has seemingly never strong armed anyone into signing up? It’s difficult to demonise in the long term as an expansionist to be feared.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: And where the Federation has seemingly never strong armed anyone into signing up? It’s difficult to demonise in the long term as an expansionist to be feared.
The current discourse around NATO expansion in Russia and repeated by their funded mouthpieces outside of Russia shows that's not really the case.
An aggressive expansionist state regards even peaceful, voluntary expansion of a geopolitical (or in this case astropolitical) foe as aggressive.
I think its important to note that through the end of ToS (esp films) and into TNG and even into DS9 there's a sense that the Klingon Empire was going through a prolonged state of decline which was internal to itself. It wasn't just the Federation getting bigger, it was the Klingon way of life and Empire Building having basically run out of steam.
I think both economically and culturally there was a steady shift away from the act of military Empire Building into one where they were more trying to sustain what they had. Which was tricky because so much of what they had before was based on aggressive expansion. Take that away and as a culture they didn't quite have the maintenance tools to thrive. So you get a period of general decline where you get political groups aspiring to the "old glory days" trying to restart the Empire Building and wars here and there. However you also get those who are shown as more progressive who realise that all that would do is restart the cycle and that eventually they'd be back having an Empire to actually run, only one even larger and still without the actual skills and social structure to maintain it. Ergo they'd have a period of intense war followed by a likely even worse decline.
Just as Worf had to go through learning what a "Real" Klingon was; the Klingon people themsleves were also kind of having to redefine themselves. In a sense I think one reason Worf works so well is that he actually shows how you can marry the old style classic "Empire Building Age" attitude of being a Klingon (the romantic one) with an actual progressive attitude that promotes maintaining and running a functional society/empire.
All this explains why they can both be allies of the Federation and yet at the same time also end up almost coming into all out war with them. It's the rough patch as their society is transitioning a powerful change.
Ohh yet another galaxy spanning super mega uber baddie race likely from nowhere that will never be seen again.and that every other super mega uber race ignores - cos reasons
The Ugly
Bet we have to suffer Burnham in it at some point.
This weeks Lower Decks might be one of my favorite episodes of the series. It was a nice pay off with quite a bit of fun meta humor followed by a surprisingly touching ending with a funny gag at the end.
Haven't watched the most recent one but I've been enjoying it all year. This gang is one of my favorite ST crews. Even the senior staff which are supposed to not steal the show are great too. The Bajoran Security Chief has got some layers to him..
Picard Series 1-3 for being a look at the darker underbelly and for massive fan-service in season 3. Now give us the followup where 7 gets her own series as captain!
Below Decks - for being the most pure-to the original style Trek that's actually trek
That I've not seen but have seen enough clips of and really need to actually see and is a shock - The Orville because it seems to be classic Trek in disguise
Lathe Biosas wrote: No one ever seems to talk about Strange New Worlds in a positive light... is it due to being an offshoot of the show-that-shall-not-be-named.
I have not seen it but several friends say its really good - Pike was very good in Discovery.
Strange New Worlds is Good, but sets up some hooks that it pulls too early, killing off interesting crew members and resolving character issues too suddenly.
IMO the best Star Trek show in the last 5 years is The Orville. For the official franchise there really only has been 1 Star Trek show that is like a Star Trek show which it SNW.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: IMO the best Star Trek show in the last 5 years is The Orville. For the official franchise there really only has been 1 Star Trek show that is like a Star Trek show which it SNW.
I have greatly enjoyed The Orville. I think its a shame that it has been bounced around so much. Would love a season 4.
And with that Lower Decks is finished. I'm sad to see it go but I'm happy that the showrunners have done the right thing and ended things the way they want instead of pushing it too far.
Honestly, it's taken second place in my favourite Trek shows and it's earned it.
Gert wrote: And with that Lower Decks is finished. I'm sad to see it go but I'm happy that the showrunners have done the right thing and ended things the way they want instead of pushing it too far.
Honestly, it's taken second place in my favourite Trek shows and it's earned it.
Agreed. Also we learned why it was a good thing ensign Kim was never promoted and that it’s important to “Engage the Core”.
AduroT wrote: Strange New Worlds is Good, but sets up some hooks that it pulls too early, killing off interesting crew members and resolving character issues too suddenly.
SNW is Real Trek, but it does have some issues with pacing, consistent (in-universe) physics and such. Kinda just realized what it reminds me of - Dr. Who. There is always only The Current Plot and nothing else. But it has the soul of old Trek. It's gritty, but it's not cynical.
We just finished this series, and we all enjoyed it tremendously. I’d put it after TNG and DS9 but before TOS and Voyager on my list of best Treks. It took me a while to warm up to it, though, as it carried the fine tradition of the rough first season.
Lower Decks felt a lot like The Orville to me for a few reasons. One of the biggest was the breezy feel each had due to using tropes and shorthand to move through plot elements quickly where other Treks would have spent half an episode building mystery or tension. They both also had that “you’ve met the best, now meet the rest” slobs-not-snobs quality to set them apart from other Trek shows. I think both series also took a while to find their footing and to make the characters funny without being annoying.
Lower Decks, even more than The Orville, fell prey to that comedy crutch the DBZA guys described wresting with their first year or two: when they didn’t have a handle on their characters or couldn’t find a funny way to bounce characters off each other they just made everyone a jerkass. Mariner and Boimler both spend a lot of time as unlikeable jerkasses. Even after they develop into better characters as the show found itself, they both still regressed into jerkassery again and again so the plot could happen. For me, this was the weakest part of the show.
For the most part, after the first season the jokes landed, the stories were compelling, the animation improved and most of the characters were fun to spend time with. I wish there were more Star Trek like Lower Decks.
I'd encourage you to give it a go - like I've said earlier its the most Trek Trek thing that's come out under the Trek title for a LONG time. Give it a good chance its honestly worth it.
I have tried a few times. But the art style, specifically the horrific overemoting because animating facial expressions is like, hard, apparently, is just too much. Spesh as it means the voice actors have to overplay everything.
Like Rick & Morty, Family Guy, Ted, American Dad and that? It just feels smug. Which is exactly why I can’t be arsed with The Orville. Behold, as the writer and “creator*” just sort of stands there, awaiting his line and forgetting to act when someone else has a line.
*who brought us such genius as The Simpsons, But With Swearing, and The Simpsons, But With Swearing, Again. And of course, Star Trek, BUT WITH SWEARING AREN’T I ORIGINAL AND CLEVER.
I’d suggest skipping to the second season, where the animation is a bit better, if that would make a difference at all. There are a lot of great call backs and fanservice deep cuts that I think you would love, based on your appreciation of the recent Ghostbusters and Star Wars material.
Start of second season won't make much sense considering that there's a bunch of separation things that happen at the end of season 1.
I do agree most of that Rick and Morty/Family Guy stuff is a turn off for me as well. I can tolerate it when youtube offers it up in short clips but yeah never the interest to see it all the way through.
I’d suggest skipping to the second season, where the animation is a bit better, if that would make a difference at all. There are a lot of great call backs and fanservice deep cuts that I think you would love, based on your appreciation of the recent Ghostbusters and Star Wars material.
Honestly Lower Decks manages a very fine art of being able to take the more serious tone of TNG and DS9 and mix it with the more zany things that happened in Original series and the early part of TNG. And yeah its FULL of cutbacks and such to Trek. It really feels like an show written by honest fans who wanted to make more of the same of what they saw and loved. Rather than more recent attempts that kind of want to re-write it all
They also capture a lot of Voyager’s goofiness, although LD does it on purpose.
Hmmm. For MDG, I’d suggest starting with an episode like I, Excretus (or We’ll Always Have Tom Paris if the premise isn’t too silly) and moving forward for a few episodes to see if it works for him. He can always go back later if he gets into the series.
I’ll give it a spin. But I’m not promising anything.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So….is there more to this than “hey, ‘member this episode that was written by competent writers, that wor grate weren’t it”?
Automatically Appended Next Post: So….is there more to this than “hey, ‘member this episode that was written by competent writers, that wor grate weren’t it”?
There is, but it takes a bit of watching. The premise of the show, as depicted in the first episode, is not to Boldly Go, but to follow up on those who did. The difference for me between LD and a purely member berry movie like Ghostbusters Afterlife, is LD takes the old things and develops them more or does something interesting with them, usually.
LD also has its own character arcs, its own stories and its own tropes that develop as the series progresses. I’ll put together a list of those kinds of episodes if you like. There are big payoff episodes for LD centric arcs, like the Stars at Night or A Few Badgeys More, or most of the Klingon episodes in the second half. I’d say, outside of the first season, LD has Klingon-focused episodes every bit as good as TNG and DS9.
One difference I appreciate between LD and the classic trek it builds on is it feels like they’ve learned from the old series. Rewatching TNG’s 5th and 6th season, there are a frustrating number of episodes where something weird happens and the crew don’t say anything because “I is the tired” or “They’ll think I’m crazy” or “There must be another explanation”. In LD, when a weird thing happens, an ensign tells the captain right away, and the captain calls the senior staff to the ready room to deal with the weird thing, just on the word of the ensign. The characters come across as almost blasé about energy beings, brain parasites, time travel, etc. because they or someone they know or respect has experienced it. For example, there’s an episode where a bunch of crewmen have a celebration for their ensign on his ascension day, when he will transcend the universe as a being of pure energy. There’s an episode about a character who came back from the dead and why it’s considered rude to ask about it. Both of those lead to one of the best running gags of the series and a season finale payoff that feels earned rather than like a deus ex Machina. Individual episodes build up and the series gets more interesting as it goes on.
Also, I Have No Bones Yet I Must Flee is just good fun that takes a standard Trek trope (humans abducted into an alien menagerie) and just does something wacky with it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And the reason I picked I excretus, beyond it taking a fun poke at the memberberries (which I thought you would like) is because it leads into some more good episodes, rather than off-putting ones like An Embarrassent of Dooplers.
I have to say I do like that in Lower Decks they do acknowledge all the crazy stuff that happens to them in the setting. A lot of "alien of the week" that you get from Original series and TNG often suffers from the fact that it never really revisits or even really acknowledges anything much that happens in previous episodes.
TNG improves a lot, but even so there's a good many things that they almost seem to forget or overlook that have happened before.
It leads to fun things - much like how we have Sisko punching Q in DS9. He's read the reports, he's more than aware of what Q is (as far as Starfleet understands" and on what kind of creature he is and how you could or could not react to him being around.
Lower Decks really feels like their writing room was just full of DVDs of previous shows that the writers just watched back to back and picked up on so many of those abandoned stories and characters and themes and then they played with them.
The use of Pakleds, and our view into their government and revolutionaries, made good use of something TNG did that became embarrassing. The Voyager episode, too.
@MDG, if you have seen I excretus, I recommend moving on to Wej Duj and First First Contact. They’re good.
I wasn't too sure about Lower Decks at first either, but once I watched an episode (at my brother's insistence) I fell in love with it. I won't call it the best Trek ever by a long shot, but it's also far from being the worst. And the crossover in season 2 of Strange New Worlds was fun, too.
The first few episodes are some of the show's roughest. It finds its feet a good way into S1 and then just gets better from there. Season 5 is not the high point of the series, but it does end before it overstays.
Right, 24 minutes in, 70 to go. And. I. Am. So. Bored.
I think they’re going for an Oceans 11 feel. But the Oirish Vulcan that’s not actually a Vulcan but some tiny Oirish alien piloting a….Vulcan Skin Suit Robot thing is getting right on my pip.
No. Not Irish. The actor is South African. But his accent is deafeningly Oirish. Also, if you’re gonna pilot a Vulcan Skin Suit Robot thingy? Maybe act like a Vulcan? Oh wait, acting seemingly isn’t your strong suit, so maybe you just decided that’s how Vulcans are, or were convinced your giggling buffoon was actually you being all stoic and contemplative and that.
Michelle Yeoh is doing her best, but the material she’s working with? It’s like putting someone in a straight jacket in a sleeping bag, drawing the string, and then asking them to drag a medium sized boulder up a sheer and slippery slope.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Nearly done, and it gets so, so much worse.
The action is all jump cuts. Which given Michelle Yeoh is an excellent martial artist, suggests an incompetent director. And it seems pretty obvious they’d film one strike, set up for the next, film that, then try and fail to edit it into a single, flowing punch up.
None of the other characters are remotely likable, and Georgiou, a bright light from Disco S1 is horribly inconsistent here.
Also, being a prequel of sorts? WE KNOW THE BAD GUY’S PLAN IS GOING TO FAIL.
Oh, and then right at the very end? The MacGuffin Device Of Dedly Deff? Has a biosignature lock. Which only Georgiou can access. So what was the bloody point? Seriously. Bad guy have device. But their main pursuer knows they can’t use it,
Stick this up your arse, Paramount. Michelle Yeoh deserves so much better than this.
In one respect, Section 31 is the most wholeheartedly faithful Star Trek production ever - if you count Galaxy Quest (AND WE DO), S31 is an odd-numbered film, and boy howdy did that suck.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: But the Oirish Vulcan that’s not actually a Vulcan but some tiny Oirish alien piloting a….Vulcan Skin Suit Robot thing is getting right on my pip.
So, they 'borrowed' this from the first Men in Black film?
Look. This is me. You can tell this is crap. Because just as I’ll happily tuck in/utterly demolish a Haggis and other food others might baulk at? I’ve a stomach for often derided movies. For instance, I entirely, unironically, really enjoy The Last Jedi and Rise of Skywalker, to the point of genuinely wondering what all the fuss about the latter is.
So when I’m telling you something is a dreadful pile of poopoo? You better believe it has absolutely no redeeming qualities whatsoever.
I mean, I think I’ve made it clear what I think about Lower Decks. But hopefully I’ve not been a melt about it, expressing my distaste whilst not wanting to impinge on the next person’s enjoyment.
But if you enjoy this as someone familiar with Trek, never mind being a fan of Trek?
You need your bumps felt. With a patented, Grotsnik Corp Bump Feelerer 9,000.
The Grotsnik Corp Bump Feelerer 9,000. It only looks like several bricks crudely gaffer taped to a cricket bat.
Look. This is me. You can tell this is crap. Because just as I’ll happily tuck in/utterly demolish a Haggis and other food others might baulk at? I’ve a stomach for often derided movies. For instance, I entirely, unironically, really enjoy The Last Jedi and Rise of Skywalker, to the point of genuinely wondering what all the fuss about the latter is.
I must admit, that when I hear you don't even have the stomach to find something worthwhile in this film, my immediate reaction is it must be pretty damn bad.
Which I'm fine with. The movie looked terrible and a lot of me really wanted it to fail to try and get the direction for Star Trek productions to stop trying to be modern action movies that do not suit the franchise as a whole. So if this movie fails, I'm good with that
Lathe Biosas wrote: Well it feels like it fits with the rest of Discovery. A lot of wasted potential.
Oh this is worse.
You know when you’re a kid, and something awful happens, and your Mam or Gran would, somewhat cryptically, say “worse things happen at sea”?
This is like the worst thing that could happen at sea, but also someone has violently inserted a Shark, one of the big ‘uns as well, not those crappy little ones, somewhere a Shark really has absolutely no business being.
And then poured vinegar on it. Whilst laughing like Jimmy Carr, and assorted other Channel 4 “comedians” attempt to add levity with what we’re all assured are witty comments.
Look. This is me. You can tell this is crap. Because just as I’ll happily tuck in/utterly demolish a Haggis and other food others might baulk at? I’ve a stomach for often derided movies. For instance, I entirely, unironically, really enjoy The Last Jedi and Rise of Skywalker, to the point of genuinely wondering what all the fuss about the latter is.
I must admit, that when I hear you don't even have the stomach to find something worthwhile in this film, my immediate reaction is it must be pretty damn bad.
Which I'm fine with. The movie looked terrible and a lot of me really wanted it to fail to try and get the direction for Star Trek productions to stop trying to be modern action movies that do not suit the franchise as a whole. So if this movie fails, I'm good with that
And like when, before the plague, we’d had World Food Days, and my colleagues of African descent would bring in Joliffe? When asked to choose between different Joliffes, my plan was to spontaneously combust.
The only difference being that Joliffe kicks arse. So much so, I dare not attempt it myself. As despite being a dab hand in the kitchen? I fear only self inflicted disappointment lies ahead in such an endeavour.
You're telling me the first Trek film we've gotten since Beyond (not a bad film either) was a direct to streaming (something only marginally better than direct to video) film?
The reviews sound disappointing but sardonically fitting as a bookend to modern trek era that started with STD's broadcast premiere. As a former lifelong trekkie, I haven't even bothered to watch most of the past half dozen seasons of anything trek (other than Pic S3 and a couple episodes of SNW S2) and I don't see this film changing that given the reviews from sources I trust and, most surprisingly, even those I no longer do which seem to agree.
Ya, I think this'll be the first ST thing I don't watch unless I get some kind of free pass to Paramount+. Besides being a bad premise its also a prequel? Or is it just a prequel because its set in the Disco era? What's this about there being a TV Show about Enterprise-C?
Technically it's not a prequel - to Disco at least - in that it takes place in the 'lost era' between Kirk and Picard. But I'm certain 98% of the story was untouched from when it was supposed to kick off directly after Disco season one (if even puts Georgiou back into a seedy club where Section 31 tracks her down to recruit her, just as happened in the season one end teaser), so it may as well be. Albeit the plot is so generic and, with one exception, untethered to anything in the rest of the timeline (or, indeed, the idea of Star Trek as a setting) we'd care about, it'd probably be more accurate to call it a Don't Carequel.
So far as I know the Enterprise C thing
Spoiler:
is just that Rachel Garrett, the C's captain, appears as a junior officer. The actor's decent and Garrett's one of the few bearable (mostly) aspects of the whole thing,
but I wouldn't put much credence in the idea that anything is going to spin off from this garbage fire until I see it in writing.
So what I'm hearing, I can toss this into the bin of stuff I'll watch for free if I'm bored.
Kinda like Strange New Worlds (aka, old Trek episodes with new special effects) and Discovery (the weird Trek show that made the JJ Abrams Trek seem grounded).
I say this as someone who's genuinely enjoyed the majority of new Trek (heck, I even have a little time for Picard season two): you'll never be that bored.
Daia T'Nara wrote: I say this as someone who's genuinely enjoyed the majority of new Trek (heck, I even have a little time for Picard season two): you'll never be that bored.
Don't get me wrong, I honestly liked Lower Decks and Picard Season 3.
LordofHats wrote: I for one am glad that we in the Star Trek tread seem to have found something none of us want to argue about.
The movie looks like it sucks.
The movie sucks according to people who've seen it.
Those of us who thought it looked like it sucked are vindicated.
The people who have seen assure us again, it really is that bad.
Peace in the star trek fandom at last!
General Chang: Oh, now be honest, Captain. Warrior to warrior. You do prefer it this way, don't you, as it was meant to be. No peace in our time. "Once more unto the breach, dear friends."
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: But if you enjoy this as someone familiar with Trek, never mind being a fan of Trek?
You need your bumps felt. With a patented, Grotsnik Corp Bump Feelerer 9,000.
The Grotsnik Corp Bump Feelerer 9,000. It only looks like several bricks crudely gaffer taped to a cricket bat.
Grotsnik Corp. Sorry, No Refunds.
Holy gak, I nearly spewed my drink all over my computer when I read this! I'm gonna have to add it to my sig, it's gotta be one of the funniest things I've read on Dakka in a long time!
Lathe Biosas wrote: So what I'm hearing, I can toss this into the bin of stuff I'll watch for free if I'm bored.
Kinda like Strange New Worlds (aka, old Trek episodes with new special effects) and Discovery (the weird Trek show that made the JJ Abrams Trek seem grounded).
No.
No no no.
Strange New Worlds is genuinely enjoyable. Like TNG and DS9, it has its dud episode now and again, but most of it is really genuinely good.
Discovery had potential, and there are some enjoyable things. It’s mostly not very Trek. In fact, I’m gonna be bold. If it wasn’t labelled s Star Trek, and was more generic sci-fi? It might’ve had a warmer reception.
Section 31 is just drivel. Like a moron decided to write a sci-fi movie, having seen Suicide Squad, and after a lobotomy. Aimless, meandering plot in which very little happens very slowly. A nonsensical plot device. Basically a super weapon, made by Georgiou in the mirror universe is now in the main one, and it’s sent to her by someone for reasons, then someone, I think it’s her son, pinches it back, for reasons, and it’s something to do with a mirror universe invasion, except it’s genelocked, so there’s absolutely sod all reason for Georgiou to go after it. That’s like the CIA desperately trying to catch up with Generic Naughty Person (GNP), because they found not only that GNP was off to bomb somewhere, but had driven off without the explosives, just taking the detonator.
Add in a horrifically overacted “Oirish” character that’s about as amusing as an episode of 8 out of 10 Cats with Jimmy Carr, Alan Carr, Russell Brand, Jack Whitehall and that blonde cockney fella with the massive teeth, and it’s you that’ll be wanting the lobotomy.
Oh yeah, and due to lazy hack writing? The superior paranoid and as such perceptive Empress Philippa Georgiou is only ever as perceptive as the plot needs her to be at any given second.\
You know how Willow was actually pretty good fun, but is now removed from tv forever and ever? That’s what should happen to Section 31. Just bin it. In a volcano. Tied to its writers.
Lathe Biosas wrote: So what I'm hearing, I can toss this into the bin of stuff I'll watch for free if I'm bored.
Kinda like Strange New Worlds (aka, old Trek episodes with new special effects) and Discovery (the weird Trek show that made the JJ Abrams Trek seem grounded).
SNW is some of the best Trek we've gotten in a long time. It gets back to the essence of Trek and doesn't try to "deconstruct" things and failing miserably.
I'm on that train. SNW is genuinely the most fun Trek I've seen in years (non-animated). Honestly SNW and Orville (feth off, this is Trek) are shining stars.
Sad that they wasted awesome evil emperor and deep dark black book Trek with a crappy movie. There were some genuinely cool things to explore.
Red Letter Media has chimed in on Section 31(% on Rotten Tomatoes). I haven't watched it yet but will tonight. In the meantime, I'll post the link here!
warboss wrote: Red Letter Media has chimed in on Section 31(% on Rotten Tomatoes). I haven't watched it yet but will tonight. In the meantime, I'll post the link here!
They had me at 'I just don't give a crap.'
Because I agree. I just don't give a crap. Fortunately I have the option to really not give a crap and not make a 44 minute video (does this qualify as sadism on their end? I feel like it might) about the thing I never wanted to like to begin with XD
Thought they're right. It's always 'revenge' or 'super weapon' and that's dominated a lot of mainstreamed media going on 10-15 years now, hasn't it? And it really is so old. Like those ideas in themselves aren't horrible ideas. But when everything is basically the same idea, even the stuff that otherwise might qualify as decent to good just looks like gak.
Maybe they ran out.. hopefully? They seemingly go through them in modern trek like red shirts in TOS. It's like you can choose to major at Starfleet Academy specifically in villainy with a minor in mustache twirling.
Dear god now I remember that the Academy series is coming.
Should we make a bingo card? Because I've long had a theory that someone making new Star Trek thinks Star Trek: Renegades was fantastic and not one of the most overblown pieces of gakky fanfiction ever made because they keep ripping off plot points and elements from Star Trek: Renegades with such accuracy I am convinced that's exactly what's going on here.
Because Section 31 honestly reads to me like a remake of Renegades, complete with emotional moments that aren't emotional and a lot of 'haha funny' lines that are bafflingly unfunny.
LordofHats wrote: I for one am glad that we in the Star Trek tread seem to have found something none of us want to argue about.
The movie looks like it sucks.
The movie sucks according to people who've seen it.
Those of us who thought it looked like it sucked are vindicated.
The people who have seen assure us again, it really is that bad.
Peace in the star trek fandom at last!
I think its a good thing that everyone has a different Star Trek that is their favorite. It shows there's a lot of variety in the franchise. The strength of Trek is that it can do anything and when you're doing everything you're not going to please everyone.
Anyway, I think a show about the Enterprise C could be interesting. An Ambassador class! However, we'll know how it ends with that one but I guess they could cover it's career before.
If SNW is a throwback to TOS then perhaps this show will be a throwback to TNG.
Throwback in the current franchise seems to just mean creatively bankrupt.
The best show's they've made have been the ones that weren't trying to ape the previous series' or films (Lower Decks and Prodigy) and had actual original ideas to mix into the soup.
Stop throwing back and make something worth watching. Yes. I've seen Yesterday's Enterprise. It was a good episode. Why can't you make a good episode yourself instead of chasing nostalgia googles you the person making this show don't even have?
Ah. War in the Star Trek fandom. Peace was good while it lasted
Possibly a hot take, but for me the rot set in with Enterprise.
We had (for the umpteenth time of this particular whinge) the whole fallout of the Dominion War to explore, an Alpha Quadrant and Federation fundamentally changed by what occurred. Could Starfleet get back to peaceful exploration? How might the Romulans and/or Klingons seek to exploit the wounds left?
Instead….heres a prequel absolutely nobody asked for, with the wimpiest theme tune ever. Where there are no real stakes, because like all prequel media, we kinda know what’s not going to happen in the end.
Then of course it got a long, well earned rest.
JJ Abrams, possibly wisely, went the alternate timeline route, but in doing so fixed a future event, the destruction and evacuation of Romulus, which if memory serves was still trying to get its act together after Shinzon’s coup d’etat.
After that? It’s….another prequel absolutely nobody asked for!. And another, but thankfully that was SNW and whilst unasked for was at least good fun. Oh, and Picard. Ropey first season on balance, but I enjoyed it well enough, the advantage of an excellent lead with a reasonable supporting cast.
Prodigy and Lower Decks I’ll leave there, yeah. Haven’t seen, don’t want to see.
Then, like a wee rabbit Tod atop a poop cream sundae of largely mismanaged, boring stories? Section 31. The absolute worst of the bunch.
Where does it go from here? I honestly don’t know. I’d quite like to see Seven’s command followed in a fairly traditional series. But it’s all feeling like there’s nothing left to explore.
Modern boardroom based productions are so adverse to risk they just run through a franchises ideas and ruin them until they decide the fans aren't interested anymore
See, for me part of the interest in TNG came from the meeting room scenes, where the senior command would discuss the problem faced, offer suggestions, and Worf would usually be told no.
That allowed different opinions and views to be aired. That to me is Very Federation, if not Definitively.
But recent Trek has shown how that actually works in the real world 😂
The opening was the only part I liked. It's out of whack with the classic style (but what about STD and Picard openings clearly made by some insufferable pretentious prick straight out of art academy and bent on making something "theirs"?) but it was the most representative of the soul of Trek.
Oh the opening credits made sense, visually. And I agree Picard and Disco should’ve stuck with the “will you just read the bloody map, we’ve been past that nebula six times” meanderings of the character ship.
Part of me is glad that people who have liked DISC, or PIK, or SNW, or Lower Decks, or Prodigy are finally like "what is this crap?" when it comes to section 31.
From my perspective, based on what I've heard of/seen of all of those shows, Section 31 is the inevitable conclusion of their sloppy/bad/irreverent writing and lack of love for TOS/TNG. Like for me, I knew I wouldn't like DISC as soon as I learned the MC was spocks step-sister, so bingo-bango they've already put it in an alternative timeline/universe from TOS/TNG. I have seen people argue "but spock didn't have a half brother until he did in the movie", to which I would say, that movie wasn't retro-active, it didn't change TOS with the addition of his brother, and the actor who helped write/develop the character of Spock took part in making that change to spock, DISC was written by people who hate spock and kirk, none of the original writers or creaters could even be involved in making the changes they did to Spock. So the changes they made were fan-fiction level at best, and considering it a seperate timeline/universe is frankly the most polite way to deal with or organize DISC.
SNW is offensive in its own way, taking many characters from TOS that shouldn't be on the enterprise and putting them there. Making changes to their personalty/character that don't make any sense and make them completely different from how they would be in TOS, again SNW is a show that is basically a different timeline/universe.
Then Picard, oh man, that show should have been aborted, its a pet project of Patric Stewart to completely tarnish his reputaiton and legacy as captain picard. He isn't even Picard after the point where his character becomes an android body that thinks it is Picard.
To me, TOS is till the best star trek show, TNG is the second best, ENT is the third best.
Phew, that was cathartic. I don't care if people like these shows, but they aren't star trek, they're just teen dramas dressed up like star trek. They're RC cola when you wanted Pepsi or Coke. They're Beetleborgs when you wanted Power Rangers. They're street sharks when you wanted ninja turtles. They're michael bay when you wanted JRR Tolkien.
For me, Section 31 is just another example of how bad the people in charge of trek have been handling the franchise. Other people may disagree with all the other shows being bad, but I'm at least glad people who like those shows are finally hating section 31.
Discovery could have been ok if not for the central character being an unlikeable Mary Sue on Crack that was the best at everything and that was just the first season before the writers really started to ramp up her bullgak and ignore everyone else.
Picard I wanted to like - but ughh the writing again is shocking - some good stuff but the final awful episode of season 1 was something they never recovered from. I also think I dislike the horrible Raffi character almost as much as Burnham.
I was looking forward to seeing what they could do with the Empress - but then I saw the trailer and knew it was doomed - there is nothing good in it.
Flawless? Definitely not as there were stinker episodes (mainly in the first two seasons where they were basically on house arrest on the promenade most of the time). gak got real when Sisko lost the hair though (similar to Riker growing his beard on TNG)!
To me, TOS is till the best star trek show, TNG is the second best, ENT is the third best.
You misspelled DS9 three times.
So did you. It's just B5. Which was show so good that if you missed an episode you could watch it later on DS9.
Sometimes even with the same actors! Loved both the shows though but admittedly I haven't done a full rewatch of B5 though since unlike DS9 which I have seen multiple times since ending.
DS9 did give us Section 31 as a critique of the CIA and the concept that you need dirty people doing dirty things which fly against the ideals of a society to preserve the safety of that society. In that show such arguments were roundly rejected by characters like Bashir. The Federation didn't need Section 31, it didn't need to betray the ideals it stands for.
Then, over many years of corporate warping especially in a post 9/11 world where it was argued that torture was a necessary tool in America's intelligence gathering arsenal, the message became that actually Section 31 was required for the federation to exist. That utopian democracy needs unaccountable men and women doing torture, murder, regime change etc. out of sight of the public.
warboss wrote: Flawless? Definitely not as there were stinker episodes (mainly in the first two seasons where they were basically on house arrest on the promenade most of the time). gak got real when Sisko lost the hair though (similar to Riker growing his beard on TNG)!
It had some great episodes and plenty of mirror universe which I always enjoy but also the last episode was poor and stuff like mind wiping Worfs brother was pretty awful
Automatically Appended Next Post:
A Town Called Malus wrote: DS9 did give us Section 31 as a critique of the CIA and the concept that you need dirty people doing dirty things which fly against the ideals of a society to preserve the safety of that society. In that show such arguments were roundly rejected by characters like Bashir. The Federation didn't need Section 31, it didn't need to betray the ideals it stands for.
Then, over many years of corporate warping especially in a post 9/11 world where it was argued that torture was a necessary tool in America's intelligence gathering arsenal, the message became that actually Section 31 was required for the federation to exist. That utopian democracy needs unaccountable men and women doing torture, murder, regime change etc. out of sight of the public.
True but it also had the excellent (IMO) In the Pale Moonlight which had much less of a certain path to utopia - I mean even the Culture has Special Circumstances....
I still maintain that overall the Picard series are good though I will concede a few things
1) The ending of seasons 1 and 2 feel like they evaporate at the start of the next season. Like there's no continuation of some parts of it.
Where did that mega-fleet go by season 3?; why didn't they go running to friendly borg when there were bad borg running amok?
2) Season 1 100% suffers from untold story developments. A lot of the Romulan storyline and Picards changes are not really shown to us; we get them as flashbacks but we have to put a lot of it together ourselves. This 100% throws people because Picard isn't who he was the last time they saw him in TNG - he's aged, got slower, older and isn't in the same charismatic position (at the head of the flagship of the Federation or an Admiral) that we saw him in before and it clearly throws people.
I still greatly enjoy them because to me they feel like they follow a lot of the darker side of what we saw in DS9; which has otherwise felt like a storyline a lot of other seasons have avoided. Voyager avoided by jumping to another segment of the Galaxy - other seasons have avoided by rebooting; timelines; going way forward or way back. It just feels like the post DS9/Voyager time period is one no other creator has wanted to touch. In a sense I feel like all the other productions almost feel like that ended Startrek and anything you try to do after has to be so far away from it to give it a chance or something.
On that last point, I think we can pin the blame, to a greater or lesser extent, on JJ Abrams.
Thanks to his first movie, the timeline is….
2375 End of the Dominion War. The Alpha quadrant has a real chance at a lasting peace, if not actual unity, as the major powers just fought off an existential threat together.
2376 - 2387 ????????
2387 Romulus go big boom, after evacuation attempt.
2387 - 2399 ????????
2399 Picard begins.
So whilst yes, there’s around 30 or so years one could explore? We’ve set events breaking that up, and set fall out from them.
This includes the question of “how did a culture as advanced and numerous as the Romulan Star Empire come to rely on the Federation for evacuation”.
Not to mention “did anything underhand happen in the immediate aftermath of the Dominion War, or did we see unprecedented cooperation and peace as the participants began the long road to recovery”.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I am going to fit in some praise for the Picard we got in, erm, Picard.
See, like Kirk? He became a relic. His statesmanly approach to careful negotiation was as out of date, post Dominion War, as Kirk’s “should I shoot it or shag it” approach did, post Kitomer.
Each was absolutely the Captain Starfleet needed in their day, but time and pressures overtook them.
And so, we’re left with a disillusioned Picard, one arguably heartbroken by his own failure to save the Romulans. Possibly bitter about being kind of put out to pasture, his clout and influence gone.
They definitely could’ve done more there of course.
Here's the Timeline from startrek.com (Starting with Nemesis - Caution a Lot of Spoilers are included):
Spoiler:
[quote
2379
The events of Star Trek: Nemesis, resulting in the death of Lieutenant Commander Data.
Discovery of previously unknown Android named "B-4", a prototype android similar in design to Lt. Commander Data but with a notably less advanced positronic network.
2380-2381
The events of Star Trek: Lower Decks.
2383
The events of Star Trek: Prodigy.
2385, First Contact Day
The events of Star Trek: Short Treks episode "Children of Mars" take place. The Utopia Planitia Fleetyards on Mars are sabotaged and subsequently destroyed by rogue synthetics in a surprise attack. The battle results in the loss of 92,143 lives, the planet itself being considered destroyed, its stratosphereignited, and the destruction of the rescue armada to evacuate Romulus. In the aftermath of the attack, the Federation, unable to determine how or why the synths went rogue, bans the creation of synthetic liveforms
2386
Lieutenant Icheb is captured and stripped for his Borg parts by Bjayzl, and subsequently euthanized by Seven of Nine.
2387
A star in the Romulan Empire goes supernova. Ambassador Spock attempts to counter the resulting shockwave using Red Matter, but is unable to save the planet Romulus from destruction. Spock and the Romulan mining ship Narada, commanded by Nero, are dragged into a black hole created by the Red Matter detonation and arrive in the past. Nero's arrival in 2233 and subsequent attack on the USS Kelvin creates the Kelvin Timeline. (Star Trek (2009))
2394
Voyager returns to the Alpha Quadrant in the beginning of Star Trek: Voyager series finale ("Endgame"). This sets in motion events in which Kathryn Janeway becomes dissatisfied and begins laying plans to eventually change the timeline and send Voyager home sooner.
2395
The "Future" in the Star Trek: The Next Generation series finale ("All Good Things...").
2399
The events of Star Trek: Picard season 1.
25th century
edit
2401-2402
The events of Star Trek: Picard seasons 2-3.
2402
USS Titan (NCC-80102-A) is renamed USS Enterprise (NCC-1701-G) under the command of Captain Seven of Nine.
2404
The original timeline split in the Star Trek: Voyager series finale (Endgame), where Admiral Janeway goes back 26 years to the Delta Quadrant and secures Voyager's earlier return to the Alpha Quadrant. This begins a new timeline (as yet unnamed).
26th century
edit
c. 2540–2550
The Starship Enterprise-J (presumably NCC 1701-J) is commissioned and takes part in the Battle of Procyon V against the Sphere Builders as shown in Enterprise episode "Azati Prime". As the events of the episode “Zero Hour” result in the destruction of the spheres and the dissipation of the altered space, it is likely this battle occurs only in an alternate timeline.
27th century
edit
Temporal Cold War (with agents from the 31st century); first established in the pilot episode of Star Trek: Enterprise and recurring until the series' fourth season premiere, it is a struggle between those who would alter history to suit their own ends and those who would preserve the integrity of the original timeline.
With the distance between them having expanded over the centuries and making travel increasingly difficult, the last crossing between the Prime and Mirror Universes occurs at some point during this century.
29th century
edit
The Aeon-type timeship is in active service during this century ("Future's End"), as is the Wells-class timeship Relativity ("Relativity").
30th century
edit
Around the year 2958, supplies of Dilithium in the Milky Way started to dry up, marking the beginning of an energy crisis. The United Federation of Planets began development and trials of alternatives to warp drive, though none proved to be reliable.
The Federation spends much of this century engaged in a temporal war with the objective of upholding the Temporal Accords to ensure the timeline remains unaltered.
31st century
edit
3069
A cataclysmic galaxy-wide event referred to as "The Burn" occurs. Nearly all dilithium in the galaxy suddenly goes inert, causing a massive loss of life and the destruction of every ship and facility with an active warp core. In the aftermath, the remaining dilithium became an ever more scarce resource. With few ships and warp travel severely impeded, no explanation for what happened and the uncertainty if it will happen again, the United Federation of Planets, Starfleet Command, and the United Earth, effectively collapse.
3074
The main plot of the Star Trek: Voyager episode "Living Witness" takes place, and the final scene takes place "many years" after that.
3089
The Federation, Starfleet Command and United Earth leave planet Earth for a new headquarters location. Around the same time, the United Earth government withdraws Earth from the Federation, becoming fully self-sufficient and isolating multiple planets from the rest of the galaxy.
Episodes with time traveler Daniels from Enterprise: "Cold Front", "Shockwave", "Azati Prime"
32nd and 33rd centuries
edit
3186
This is the year Gabrielle Burnham arrived in after using the Red Angel suit to escape a Klingon attack on her home. (Discovery S2 E10)
3188-3191, ca. 3225
The events of Star Trek: Discovery seasons 3 to 5.
34th century
edit
3374
According to Obrist, if the Krenim weapon ship continued to alter time to this point, full restoration of the Krenim Imperium would not have been achieved.
Far future
edit
The events of the Star Trek: Short Treks episode "Calypso" take place in the 43rd century or later.
60-70 trillion yearsThe Universe will Collapse.
To me, TOS is till the best star trek show, TNG is the second best, ENT is the third best.
You misspelled DS9 three times.
I think its fine you enjoy DS9 the most, I like DS9, but TOS is still the best to me, and if it wasn't for the popularity of TOS none of the other shows would exist, so at the very least it deserves some respect. I don't think the people in charge of Trek even respect TOS any more.
As for B5, I love B5. It's different than DS9, and I've heard enough things back and forth to say that I don't really believe DS9 ripped off B5, nor that B5 ripped off DS9, I think it was a coincidental occurrence of two similar shows at the same time. B5 had one thing that I don't think DS9 had at the time, a stronger online community that also had communication with JMS. It's kinda too bad he's gone crazy these last few years. If B5 does get rebooted I hope his mental state doesn't affect the writing.
I am going to fit in some praise for the Picard we got in, erm, Picard.
See, like Kirk? He became a relic. His statesmanly approach to careful negotiation was as out of date, post Dominion War, as Kirk’s “should I shoot it or shag it” approach did, post Kitomer.
Each was absolutely the Captain Starfleet needed in their day, but time and pressures overtook them.
And so, we’re left with a disillusioned Picard, one arguably heartbroken by his own failure to save the Romulans. Possibly bitter about being kind of put out to pasture, his clout and influence gone.
They definitely could’ve done more there of course.
That's a great point to include Kirk in the comparison. We also saw a bit of it with Scotty too in TNG when he had his appearance there. Again we saw someone who was once top of their game reduced to a relic. Granted in his case it was being stuck in a matter storage thingy for decades; but the effect is still the same kind of bittersweet experience for the character and for the audience too.
warboss wrote: Flawless? Definitely not as there were stinker episodes (mainly in the first two seasons where they were basically on house arrest on the promenade most of the time). gak got real when Sisko lost the hair though (similar to Riker growing his beard on TNG)!
Sisko didn’t lose his hair, it simply migrated to a different part of his head.
There's really no truth to the entire thing. I'm surprised there's still anyone who buys into this myth.
Straczynski never accused Berman of ripping of B5. He did accuse Paramount of using his scripts and notes to steer the direction of the series, but that accusation doesn't hold up to the timeline of DS9's production or detailed accounts of how the show was brainstormed (it was propose initially as 'The Rifleman in Space' to build off the idea of TOS being 'Wagon Train in Space').
If anything, they maybe ripped the Rifleman off too hard, but by the time DS9 aired and its fandom grew the Rifleman was a mostly forgotten show from the late 50s but almost everything in DS9 can be seen as a 1-to-1 transfer of ideas from the Rifleman into a sci-fi setting.
It really is a case of two pieces of media emerging around the same time with similar premise's and themes, which isn't particularly rare and those similarities grew slimmer the longer the shows ran.
EDIT: Actually Wagon Train would probably be entirely forgotten too except people watch Star Trek and come across the phrase 'Wagon Train in Space' to vaguely clue them in that there was once a show called Wagon Train.
A Town Called Malus wrote:DS9 did give us Section 31
I aggressively view Section 31 as being a literal cancer. Cells that were perfectly fine in their original place, but have toxically grown beyond that place and begun infecting other organs. I really really wish S31 would just stop happening. It needs to be cut out of the broader franchise like a tumor because none of these other writers really have any good ideas on what to do with it.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I’d give DS9 the edge over B5, precisely because it is Star Trek but, aha, boldly went, in a somewhat different direction
Honestly the biggest leg up for DS9 in the comparison imo is that DS9 used a lot less early CGI in its production. The CGI effects in B5 have not aged well. At all. They're very fugly and kind of diminishes the quality of the show on rewatches vs DS9 or TNG who used a lot of practical sets and models that have simply aged better.
IMO Section 31 is fine being there, the problem is that an entire season of Discovery was focused on it.
I had no issue with two episodes of DS9 and one episode of Enterprise because they're contained. IMO it suits the Enterprise era where there is no Federation and it's a unit associated with the far less utopian UEG.
It does seem that the broader idea is that post-Dominion War, Section 31 isn't a rogue agency with an "At All Costs" attitude but more a special mission group aimed at the Massive Picture operations i.e. stopping the multiverse from collapsing.
Discovery (unsurprisingly) is the problem. A whole entire season dedicated to the one thing that absolutely should never ever ever have gotten that much focus.
Gotta keep Emperor Georgiou in there somehow though and somehow tie Burnham to The Plot.
Ugh. Discovery.
I have to agree Section 31 worked as a small scale elite doing shifty things in the background of the Federation - making them a major power player and influence capable of major actions suddenly changed things. Indeed that and the whole temporal war and other things feel much more DC/Marvel than Startrek.
Sadly I think that DC/Marvel just has such a massive influence on US writers and producers and that was even before the massive take off of their various film franchises.
It is sad that Trek has shied away from stuff like Chain of Command and In The Pale Moonlight
Whilst hardly representative of their respective series average quality? They were such incredible high points for both, showing the mettle of the respective Captains, with absolutely superb acting all round. And I’m not sure you could substitute Picard or Sisko in those roles with other Captains.
It’s also fair to praise TNG for its own arcing continuity. Whilst lesser than DS9, stuff does stay happened. And that lets us invest in the characters and their development.
Disco? I’m really not sure anyone grows. It’s like an entire cast of Harry “no growth for you” Kim. That’s when they remember “oh yeah we’ve a whole other bridge crew we could explore, but that’s like, hard to write”.
I also really enjoy O’Brien and his family. Whilst somewhat tropey thanks to O’Brian Must Suffer, it’s the first nuclear family we really get to know. Ben and Jake Sisko too, but for me to a lesser degree.
To see Miles have to juggle his duties to service and family is, mostly, done really well and sympathetically.
BanjoJohn wrote: B5 had one thing that I don't think DS9 had at the time, a stronger online community that also had communication with JMS. It's kinda too bad he's gone crazy these last few years. If B5 does get rebooted I hope his mental state doesn't affect the writing.
BanjoJohn wrote: B5 had one thing that I don't think DS9 had at the time, a stronger online community that also had communication with JMS. It's kinda too bad he's gone crazy these last few years. If B5 does get rebooted I hope his mental state doesn't affect the writing.
Oh what has happened to the chap?
Politics... Just like so many others in Hollywood. To my knowledge and giving miniscule credit where credit is due, he hasn't started attacking half his fans overtly and directly yet.
BanjoJohn wrote: B5 had one thing that I don't think DS9 had at the time, a stronger online community that also had communication with JMS. It's kinda too bad he's gone crazy these last few years. If B5 does get rebooted I hope his mental state doesn't affect the writing.
Oh what has happened to the chap?
Politics... Just like so many others in Hollywood. To my knowledge and giving miniscule credit where credit is due, he hasn't started attacking half his fans overtly and directly yet.
He's said a few dodgy things, like if you voted for trump you and were a fan of B5, that you "didn't understand the show", but I could clearly make parallel connections between the corrupt earthgov story arc that he had in B5, and not only the trump admin, but the biden admin, and the obama admin, and the bush admin, etc. I mean the show is so broad that I don't really see it as bein "rah rah pro democrats" or "rah rah pro republicans"
LordofHats wrote: I aggressively view Section 31 as being a literal cancer. Cells that were perfectly fine in their original place, but have toxically grown beyond that place and begun infecting other organs. I really really wish S31 would just stop happening. It needs to be cut out of the broader franchise like a tumor because none of these other writers really have any good ideas on what to do with it.
We're not allowed to have utopia. Plebs need to be told that socialism can't work without Space KGB secretly doing war crimes to keep the sheep safe.
Section 31 has an abysmally low 20% rotten score and a 17% audience score on Rotten Tomatoes, which leads to this question, why is the internet acting like they are want a sequel?
Shills and bots are very positively inclined towards modern audience focused media. As for the linked article, they're basically asking Michelle Yeoh is she'd like another multimillion dollar paycheck. I can't blame her for enthusiastically saying yes to that. Heck, I'd let them blow me out of an airlock for a much less than that!
That the writers, director and producers of Section 31 utterly missed that doesn’t mean the concept is dead.
And at least that stupid Oirish thing won’t be back.
Agreed. The concept could still be interesting and worth exploring. Unfortunately, Hollywood has a tendency to take the wrong message from poor reviews and/or revenues. They'll often blame the idea rather than look more closely at the flawed execution.
We have to look at what made Section 31 such an interesting device in DS9, which I’m pretty sure was their debut.
They sought to maintain the security of the Federation, and its ideals, by doing things the Federation wouldn’t. And Odo sums up the interesting thing.
Odo wrote:Interesting, isn't it? The Federation claims to abhor Section 31's tactics, but when they need the dirty work done, they look the other way. It's a tidy little arrangement, wouldn't you say?
And this is of course kind of bookended with Sisko’s actions, and Garak’s excellent point about Sisko’s outrage during In The Pale Moonlight
Garak wrote: That's why you came to me, isn't it, Captain? Because you knew I could do those things that you weren't capable of doing? Well, it worked. And you'll get what you want: a war between the Romulans and the Dominion. And if your conscience is bothering you, you should soothe it with the knowledge that you may have just saved the entire Alpha Quadrant. And all it cost was the life of one Romulan senator, one criminal, and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer. I don't know about you, but I'd call that a bargain.
And Quark’s wisdom on hu-mons to his nephew
Quark wrote: Let me tell you something about Humans, Nephew. They’re a wonderful, friendly people, as long as their bellies are full and their holo-suites are working. But take away their creature comforts, deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers, put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people… will become as nasty and as violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon. You don’t believe me? Look at those faces. Look in their eyes.
Three separate episodes, but all adding in to the arguable requirement for something like Section 31’s existence, even if some of the exact methods are seen as too much.
And that’s unique to The Federation. Its ideals are held up as peaceful and humanitarian, except….few if any of their foes are ever going to play by those self imposed rules.
You know what could work now I’ve thought about it? A Trek murder mystery of sorts. Where a crew tries to figure out who among them is the Section 31 operative.
I think anything Section 31 needs to be a study in relative morals.
The Federation is, more or less, defined by lofty ideals. Not just “aren’t we great” ideals. But “this is where we want to get to” ideals. Something it and Starfleet are constantly aspiring to achieve.
And we’ve seen all our Captains have to show some flexibility here and there in the face of those ideals.
Let’s stick with DS9, and Sisko’s plan to drag the Romulans into the war, whilst there’s still a chance of victory.
His plan, in its purest form, was basically Tell A Really Convincing Porky Pie. It was detailed, and ultimately was a decent plan.
From what we the viewer had seen of the Dominion, the hypothesis that the non-aggression pact would only last as long as it suited the Dominion seemed accurate. And so, sooner or later, the Romulans would be involved.
The plan simply brought that forward, in the hopes of preserving untold billions of lives in the Alpha Quadrant. And that’s an important distinction. Not Federation lives, Alpha Quadrant lives. Klingon, Bajoran, Romulan, Cardassian, Ferengi - all species great and small.
But? Garak’s implementation of that plan was better. And his logic was airtight. Importantly, it was a back up to Sisko’s. Had the holoplay passed muster, you could leave it there.
But it didn’t, did it. And at a comparatively tiny a cost? The job got done and proved to be a major turning point in the conflict.
We also see attempts, successful and not, to skirt the Prime Directive, where it’s the only thing preventing an option presented as the moral choice.
Stuff I think they could play with in terms of what’s happened in the past? How about Section 31 helping to facilitate Lursa and Betor’s alliance with the Romulans? Knowing that the discovery would secure Gowron’s position, and that he was the friendlier and more honourable candidate to lead the Klingons, whilst also keeping the Romulans’ own machinations in check.
Things like that. Not moustache twirling villainy for the sake of moustache twirling villainy. Just strategic allowing of Awful Things, to prevent Far More Awful Things. An assassination here, a stitch up there, a pawn (oh hai Orion Syndicate) or cats paw at the right time. Play in those moral grey areas, weighing the cost of your own evil, against the price of doing nothing.
I think one issue is that Second 31 is a scalpel cutting at the risks to the Federation. Since DS9 though there's been more and more of a push to make Second 31 into more of a hammer.
A really big hammer - a super big one that smashes stuff in epic ways. The problem with that is it loses its covert feel; you lose the subtle elements and just end up with brute force.
We've gone from the smart and sly Garrak to the more blunt and brutish Klingon Warlord. From something that would use few agents in key positions to very carefully adjust outcomes to better the Federation's continued existence to something that's so much more epic, but also overt and large scale that it becomes harder to see it as something hidden.
In theory Section 31 are the ultimate spies because they have no actual alliance with the faction they work for the preservation of.
I think it’s important to keep in mind that when we the audience first found out about Section 31, it was when the crew of DS9 found out about Section 31. So, unlike the Obsidian Order or Tal Shiar, they’re “proper” Black Ops, not a tool of control.
If nobody knows you exist, how can they watch out for your operatives? And with the diverse species comprising the Federation, you’ve ample opportunity to insert operatives pretty much anywhere. And even enemy intelligence suspects your existence, being separate from The Federation, let alone Starfleet, is going to make it much easier to keep even those organisations guessing.
There’s an awful lot of interesting and thought provoking narratives in that mine. It just takes non-hack writers to really bring it out and explore it in the right way.
And for heaven’s sake? Don’t offer a moral conclusion. Leave that to us viewers. Present the actions, offer ambiguous moral relativism. We’ll happily argue over that for, well, ever. And that means we’ll keep watching and rewatching.
Just….keep it scalpel sharp as you said. Lots of tiny, highly strategic interventions to allow The Federation to thrive.
Heck, draw some inspiration from 40k’s Inquisition. Have its own factions. Have hyper competent operatives, and reckless operatives. Have them operating in a decentralised manner, perhaps with ostensible oversight over set areas, but secretly two or three, all keeping an eye on each other, ensuring plans work and nothing too stupid is attempted.
I'd argue 40K's inquisition is a hammer Even when its trying to be stealthy.
Honestly I think Garrak is the best example - some of his twists and turns don't even involve him "doing" anything; just passing info from one person to another and letting them play out the actions like puppets. Being smart enough to predict and then control their actions without them realising that they are being manipulated.
Heck you could even mess with the audience and characters and pull a revelation that they don't even know they are part of Section 31 and that someone else was pulling their strings!
Garak is definitely a masterfully written character. As is Dukat to be honest. The main difference is Dukat is almost entirely selfish, whereas Garak is….well never altruistic, and not just because “altruism is not do an exist’. But he’s always looking at the bigger picture.
Both are deliberately and purposefully mercurial characters. In the hands of a poor writer, you’d end up with an inconsistent plot device character, who only does a given thing because something has to move the plot along *cough Janeway cough the character, not the actress, cough* . Garak and Dukat however both feel like their actions have purpose and intended goals in keeping with each’s world view. And importantly? They feel like Cardassians, not Humans. Sly. Cunning. Ruthless.
Oh man. Did DS9 ruin Star Trek by being so well written when it mattered?
Both of them dream of a powerful successful Cardassia. Dukat has more of a selfish edges to him by far, but be under no illusions that both want to be the ones pulling the strings as much as possible.
However as I see it Garak is open to many different interpretations of a strong Cardassia which is why we generally kind of see a change in his approach as more of the insidious Federation gets into him. He can basically see a future that isn't based on conquest.
He can also see how the Federation changes minds and integrates other cultures into itself very successfully without need to conquer. Meanwhile he spends his time on DS9 orbiting a single planet that the Cardassians failed to tame. Here he is watching whole races like the Ferangi working toward social change and integration into the Federation (in time); whilst factions like the Klingons fail to be able to leave.
Meanwhile he's the constant reminder that every boot and gun that tried to tame one single backwater world - failed.
Dukat on the other hand, can't change. He maintains the view that the only strong Cardassia is one that invades with brute force; that the only way to spread their culture is through the lash; that the only way to protect themselves is to lash out and conquer.
I'd say that's part of the difference between them. I guess another is that if you look at them deep down - Garak is prepared to entertain the notion of peace; whilst Dukat thrives in war. Not like a Klingon enjoying the thrill of combat itself; but as a conquerer.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Bloody good points all. But I’d argue Dukat’s vision of a strong Cardassia is specifically a Cardassia doing big invasions where Dukat is the top dog.
Have stuck on some DS9, as I’ve got myself hype for its competent writing and character development.
Garak too wants to be top - he's just content being top in the shadows; which he also sees as the where the real strength in Cardiassia is. Which makes sense as the Obsidian Order he was a part of basically was the ruling power in all but name for a long time.
But yes I agree Dukat want's to be head of Cardassia and his Cardiassia is a strong empire building warmachine that will bring its way of life to all by force or crush them entirely.
Another interesting thought - of the two Garak is the most honest and Dukat the most slimy. Which when you consider Garak hardly ever gives a straight answer seems wrong and yet the statement also feels "right". Or perhaps we at least see many more instances of Garak being honest at the start and the finish whilst Dukat you never know what to expect
They both clearly enjoy their work though, getting genuine kicks and amusement from knowing more about what’s going on than anyone else, even when it doesn’t necessarily benefit them.
Just thinking further. Garak is often found discussing Cardassian culture with Bashir. The one that sticks in my mind is Cardassian Mystery Literature. Where the guessing game isn’t “whodunnit” but “whodunnwot because they all dunnsomething”. Now that’s a fun little aside in itself, and helps paint Cardassian society as an authoritarian hellhole. But Garak and Dukat both feel like products of that society.
They very much are, however going back to my point about Garak being open to other views he can even see by the end that even IF he helps make Cardassia great again he might well not be a part of it in the end. There's a glimmer in him that he revels in power that his position and talents give him; but at the same time he can see a "retirement"
Dukat doesn't see that. He is/was/always will be the conquering ruler. He would never surrender power.
Garak I think would - on some level he's not driven by being power-hungry even though he clearly enjoys being in positions of power
Maybe its because he fall from grace and became a tailor and embraced it in the end; whilst Dukat fell (several times) but never accepted it. And the one time it seemed he almost did he went rather mad with religion and suicide groups
I guess a chunk of Garak is that he’s experienced life outside of the propaganda. Sure, the folks he engages with aren’t and will never be Cardassians. No, they’re never going to see eye to eye on every issue.
But, possibly because of Obsidian Order training, he’s a flexibility of mindset to see that the job can be done in a number of ways.
I do wonder how many off-screen chats he might’ve had with Quark. Quark, the bartender. A useful man to know, but also one who in himself isn’t a threat. And like Garak, kind of an exile living among others if you look at Quarks situation through the right lens. Then we have this exchange.
That 3rd rule of acquisition. It can be turned to a Strong Cardassia.
And so, exposed to many different cultures and points of view, I’m certain Garak would’ve been left with a lot of time to mull it over. Lift a little from Culture A, a little from Culture B. Get a bit….Federation…in your thinking. See that your overall objective has a number of approaches.
I think one thing scenes like that gave us, esp with Quark who got a good few of them, is that we see the person raised within a very specific culture dealing with situations outside of the element that greatest defines their culture.
Often in shows we see the "cultural warlord" in loads of warlord and battle situations.
In DS9 we really got to see, multiple times, how a character like Quark deals with situations and interprets situations way outside of just profit generation. Even though he might sell a vulcan on peace within the framework of a financial transaction; you can see that its his way of expressing a concept.
We see this in other ST as well, but often its more of a token episode that focuses on that character dealing with that situation in the extreme and then never really rears its head again. DS9 its lots of little scenes; which makes it feel far more real.
I think one thing DS9 did in its favour more than others is that because there was no "Bridge Crew**" and no producers/writers trying to re-create Kirk/Spock/McCoy bridge crew elements - we got to see life from a LOT more viewpoints and character backgrounds; heck if they were on a spaceship I bet you we'd have seen a Redshirt become a key reappearing character*
*one could argue a redshirt that doesn't die when they appear might not be a true redshirt though
** In fact you can even argue that Sisko in many cases is often almost more of a side character than main. Which is a really interesting dynamic when in every other ST the Captain is very much the central character
I’m telling you, Deep Space Nine ruined Star Trek.
It absolutely had its outright duds, but that’s just serialised TV for you. But when it was good? It was absolutely superb. Considered, thought provoking, sometimes morally challenging.
Even the Changelings had certain sympathetic angle to their history and motivations. Not in a way which justified the brutality of the modern Dominion, but enough to see why they started down that path.
Three separate episodes, but all adding in to the arguable requirement for something like Section 31’s existence, even if some of the exact methods are seen as too much.
And that’s unique to The Federation. Its ideals are held up as peaceful and humanitarian, except….few if any of their foes are ever going to play by those self imposed rules.
You know what could work now I’ve thought about it? A Trek murder mystery of sorts. Where a crew tries to figure out who among them is the Section 31 operative.
A better (IMO) version of Section 31 is Special Circumstances for the Culture - a far more advanced society than the Federation which still needs "people" to deal with tricky problems.
Special Circumstances is part of a larger fictional Culture organisation called Contact, which coordinates Culture interactions with (and in) other less-developed, universe-aware civilisations. SC exists to fulfil this role when circumstances exceed the moral capacity of Contact, or where the situation is highly complex and requires highly specialized skills, such as in The Player of Games. Special Circumstances also does the "dirty work" of the Culture, a function made especially complicated by the normally very high ethical standards the Culture sets itself
.
Banks has noted that the perfect society of the Culture creates well-adjusted, content people.Therefore, many of the Culture novels deal with outside agents or mercenaries in the employ of Special Circumstances.
I finally got around to catching up on Lower Decks and the episode where they were picking a new Chief Science Officer and ended with "we'll make both Science Officer!" felt like a massive cop out.
Three separate episodes, but all adding in to the arguable requirement for something like Section 31’s existence, even if some of the exact methods are seen as too much.
And that’s unique to The Federation. Its ideals are held up as peaceful and humanitarian, except….few if any of their foes are ever going to play by those self imposed rules.
You know what could work now I’ve thought about it? A Trek murder mystery of sorts. Where a crew tries to figure out who among them is the Section 31 operative.
A better (IMO) version of Section 31 is Special Circumstances for the Culture - a far more advanced society than the Federation which still needs "people" to deal with tricky problems.
Special Circumstances is part of a larger fictional Culture organisation called Contact, which coordinates Culture interactions with (and in) other less-developed, universe-aware civilisations. SC exists to fulfil this role when circumstances exceed the moral capacity of Contact, or where the situation is highly complex and requires highly specialized skills, such as in The Player of Games. Special Circumstances also does the "dirty work" of the Culture, a function made especially complicated by the normally very high ethical standards the Culture sets itself
.
Banks has noted that the perfect society of the Culture creates well-adjusted, content people.Therefore, many of the Culture novels deal with outside agents or mercenaries in the employ of Special Circumstances.
I've read a few of the culture books, its an interesting concept. After reading them I have wondered why the federation doesn't have people building their own private space-island-stations orbiting around suns or planets or whatever.
I do like the hypocrisy of the Federation when it comes to Section 31. Probably because I can see how its shenanigans can be useful in preserving the wider Federation and its ideals.
It is perverse, and exactly the sort of moral quandary Trek can deal with in thought provoking ways.
In The Pale Moonlight, whilst not Section 31, does show that highly strategic acts of evil can, in the wider picture, be justified, at least to some degree.
My interest is in exactly where the line is drawn. For instance, the attempted, and was probably going to work, genocide of the Founders. Given the clear and present danger, was that unjustified?
I’d say no, as the scale of evil is vast compared to ITPM’s. Yes you get rid of the Founders, you get rid of the Dominion. But it’s more than just exterminating an entire species and culture. The Dominion would collapse. Nobody would be around to issue orders to the Jem Hadar. Who knows what other evils might arise from the resulting power vacuum?~
But put that on screen. Show us where the ends no longer justify the means.
Heck, set it in a Post-DS9 era, possibly shortly after, where with its existence more or less exposed, it now needs to justify its actions.
That gives an excuse to revisit old episodes, revealing where a nudge here, prod there, ensured a beneficial and peaceful outcome.
Three separate episodes, but all adding in to the arguable requirement for something like Section 31’s existence, even if some of the exact methods are seen as too much.
And that’s unique to The Federation. Its ideals are held up as peaceful and humanitarian, except….few if any of their foes are ever going to play by those self imposed rules.
You know what could work now I’ve thought about it? A Trek murder mystery of sorts. Where a crew tries to figure out who among them is the Section 31 operative.
A better (IMO) version of Section 31 is Special Circumstances for the Culture - a far more advanced society than the Federation which still needs "people" to deal with tricky problems.
Special Circumstances is part of a larger fictional Culture organisation called Contact, which coordinates Culture interactions with (and in) other less-developed, universe-aware civilisations. SC exists to fulfil this role when circumstances exceed the moral capacity of Contact, or where the situation is highly complex and requires highly specialized skills, such as in The Player of Games. Special Circumstances also does the "dirty work" of the Culture, a function made especially complicated by the normally very high ethical standards the Culture sets itself
.
Banks has noted that the perfect society of the Culture creates well-adjusted, content people.Therefore, many of the Culture novels deal with outside agents or mercenaries in the employ of Special Circumstances.
I've read a few of the culture books, its an interesting concept. After reading them I have wondered why the federation doesn't have people building their own private space-island-stations orbiting around suns or planets or whatever.
Its pretty much utopia - death is optional, appearance, gender, even species is a choice that can be switched pretty much at will..... The Federation does not have the tech really yet to be anywhere near the Culture.
I still haven't wasted a moment of my life on Discovery Seasons 2-5 or Picard Seasons 2-3. And people generally say Picard Seasons 2 and 3 weren't the a gakky mass effect rip off with a Star Trek skin slapped onto it.
I don't watch gak I don't want them making more of. It's the only possible way to signal I don't like the direction of the franchise, and if nothing else I get to lord my superior self-control over all your plebians with low standards
(I kid)
But nah. I haven't seen anyone say much of anything good about S31 and have felt like I'm probably not missing anything skipping it. I've skipped other stuff people definitely have higher opinions of.
Because all my stuff is boxed up, it's just me and my pal ChatGPT.
The ol' chat Bot is only updated to October 2023, so he's not super current on TV shows, but I asked this horrible question and I thought you might enjoy the answer.
"If I wanted to watch all of Star Trek in chronological order how long would it take me?"
Spoiler:
Below is one way to estimate the overall time. (There is some wiggle‐room here—different shows have different exact episode lengths, and your “life necessities” will vary. But this gives an order‐of‐magnitude idea.)
1. Estimate the total screen time for all Star Trek TV shows and movies. For example, one rough breakdown is:
• The Original Series (TOS): about 79 episodes, roughly 50 minutes each
≈ 79 × 50 = 3,950 minutes
• The Animated Series (TAS): about 22 episodes, roughly 25 minutes each
≈ 22 × 25 = 550 minutes
• The Next Generation (TNG): about 178 episodes, roughly 45 minutes each
≈ 178 × 45 = 8,010 minutes
• Deep Space Nine (DS9): about 176 episodes, roughly 45 minutes each
≈ 176 × 45 = 7,920 minutes
• Voyager: about 172 episodes, roughly 45 minutes each
≈ 172 × 45 = 7,740 minutes
• Enterprise: about 98 episodes, roughly 45 minutes each
≈ 98 × 45 = 4,410 minutes
• More recent series (rough estimates):
– Discovery: roughly 55 episodes at ≈45 minutes each ≈ 2,475 minutes
– Picard: about 10 episodes at ≈55 minutes ≈ 550 minutes
– Lower Decks: roughly 30 episodes at ≈25 minutes ≈ 750 minutes
– Prodigy: roughly 16 episodes at ≈30 minutes ≈ 480 minutes
• Movies: There are 11 films in the various “epochs”:
– The four movies from the Original Series era: roughly 132, 110, 98, & 121 minutes (≈461 minutes total)
– The four films from the TNG era: roughly 118, 111, 103, & 116 minutes (≈448 minutes)
– The three “reboot” films from 2009 on: roughly 127, 132, & 122 minutes (≈381 minutes)
Total movie time: 461 + 448 + 381 ≈ 1,290 minutes
Now, adding the TV shows and movies together:
36,835 + 1,290 = 38,125 minutes
2. Convert minutes to hours/days of pure watching:
38,125 minutes ÷ 60 ≈ 635 hours
635 hours ÷ 24 ≈ 26.5 days of non‐stop viewing
3. Now factor in real life. If you need to eat, sleep, and take breaks, you won’t be watching 24 hours a day. A realistic “viewing schedule” might allow for around 8 hours of watching per day (after setting aside time for sleep, meals, and other necessities).
Divide the total viewing hours by 8 per day:
635 hours ÷ 8 ≈ 79.4 days, or about 80 days
Thus, if you dedicated around 8 hours a day exclusively to watching all Star Trek shows and movies in chronological order (with the rest of your time going to sleep, eating, and other necessities), you’d complete it in roughly 80 days—just under three months.
Note that these numbers are only approximations. The exact total will depend on the definitive runtime of each episode or film and your actual daily schedule.
Lathe Biosas wrote: Sorry, just thought it would be something fun. I sure as heck couldn't have calculated all that by myself.
Didn't mean to offend.
I’m not offended. I find it tedious to read, so I skip the AI written stuff. You’re free to post it if it entertains you, and I’ll ignore it because it doesn’t entertain me.
I will say the big advantage these forums have over social media right now is that they aren’t full of AI slop. Most posts here were written by human beings with things they wanted to say. I’m not looking forward to the day when Dakka is filled with AI-written posts responding to AI written posts.
Lathe Biosas wrote: Sorry, just thought it would be something fun. I sure as heck couldn't have calculated all that by myself.
Didn't mean to offend.
I’m not offended. I find it tedious to read, so I skip the AI written stuff. You’re free to post it if it entertains you, and I’ll ignore it because it doesn’t entertain me.
I will say the big advantage these forums have over social media right now is that they aren’t full of AI slop. Most posts here were written by human beings with things they wanted to say. I’m not looking forward to the day when Dakka is filled with AI-written posts responding to AI written posts.
Man, just imagine the YMDC section with AIs hallucinating at each other as they try to interpret GW's sloppy rules writing.
Its pretty much utopia - death is optional, appearance, gender, even species is a choice that can be switched pretty much at will..... The Federation does not have the tech really yet to be anywhere near the Culture.
I would argue that in TNG, the federation pretty much has the technology for personalized mini-planet-satellite-space-island things, I forget what they're called in the culture. They certainly don't have the tech to make self-sentient immortal AI robot things that the culture has. I would also say the federation could probably do a dyson sphere or dyson swarm if they actually wanted to do it, given how complicated all the warp technology and quantum torpedoes would actually be, and how complicated the technology for teleporters and replicators actually are compared to how easy they are depicted as being in the show.
I mean... I feel like I'm one of the only people who's realized that warp drives are actually near-perfect shields because they can warp space-time to bend the trajectory of incoming attacks to miss the ship, at least I've never seen any other trek fans actually bring up this point. Warp bubbles are great for moving fast, but are also the perfect shield. Heck if you're being cheeky you could make your enemy "hit themselves" with their own weapons.
What appeals to me about the Federation is that it’s still working on that perfect utopia.
Earth of course is referred to as a paradise by Sisko, whilst acknowledging that’s not the universal experience.
As a society, it’s only (at the time of Picard) been around for what, a couple of hundred years? Founded 2161, Picard wraps up in 2402. So…241 years.
And it achieved a lot in quite a small time period, bringing ever more cultures into its fold.
Through the use of replicators it’s all but eradicated starvation on well established, stable worlds.
In a sense, it’s replicated the impact of the agricultural and industrial revolutions, without leaving anyone behind. With food and resources of much reduced scarcity, its peoples are free to pursue art and science. The only exception being those settling new worlds, which is also a voluntary role. Yes those doing such bold works will have a comparatively less comfortable life whilst things are established, but at least no-one is foisting that role upon them (as opposed to deportation to the colonies of old).
And that’s something I think a decent Section 31 tale could address. The Federations ideals are constantly being challenged by reality. Unforeseen circumstances, the moral quandary of breaking the Prime Directive to save a civilisation, new aggressors.
How many surgical interventions has Section 31 performed to ensure such situations only challenge, but never shatter, those noble ideals?
Its pretty much utopia - death is optional, appearance, gender, even species is a choice that can be switched pretty much at will..... The Federation does not have the tech really yet to be anywhere near the Culture.
I would argue that in TNG, the federation pretty much has the technology for personalized mini-planet-satellite-space-island things, I forget what they're called in the culture. They certainly don't have the tech to make self-sentient immortal AI robot things that the culture has. I would also say the federation could probably do a dyson sphere or dyson swarm if they actually wanted to do it, given how complicated all the warp technology and quantum torpedoes would actually be, and how complicated the technology for teleporters and replicators actually are compared to how easy they are depicted as being in the show.
I mean... I feel like I'm one of the only people who's realized that warp drives are actually near-perfect shields because they can warp space-time to bend the trajectory of incoming attacks to miss the ship, at least I've never seen any other trek fans actually bring up this point. Warp bubbles are great for moving fast, but are also the perfect shield. Heck if you're being cheeky you could make your enemy "hit themselves" with their own weapons.
Probably why they have most space ship combat at sub warp speeds
The Federation is also super conservative with tech - likely to try and protect the stability of its society more than anything else - they shy away from Sentient machine life, bio enhancements, genetic engineering (well that does have lore reasons) - I can't see them being keen on people being able to race shift at will. Death being optional is also likely against the themes of the show/Federation Obviously this is also likely reflects the views of the series writers
The Federation can build super structures but seems to have a relatively small population so likely see no reason to do so.
Its pretty much utopia - death is optional, appearance, gender, even species is a choice that can be switched pretty much at will..... The Federation does not have the tech really yet to be anywhere near the Culture.
I would argue that in TNG, the federation pretty much has the technology for personalized mini-planet-satellite-space-island things, I forget what they're called in the culture. They certainly don't have the tech to make self-sentient immortal AI robot things that the culture has. I would also say the federation could probably do a dyson sphere or dyson swarm if they actually wanted to do it, given how complicated all the warp technology and quantum torpedoes would actually be, and how complicated the technology for teleporters and replicators actually are compared to how easy they are depicted as being in the show.
I mean... I feel like I'm one of the only people who's realized that warp drives are actually near-perfect shields because they can warp space-time to bend the trajectory of incoming attacks to miss the ship, at least I've never seen any other trek fans actually bring up this point. Warp bubbles are great for moving fast, but are also the perfect shield. Heck if you're being cheeky you could make your enemy "hit themselves" with their own weapons.
There’s a bit in the TNG technical manual that describes shields from the projectile’s point of view and that’s pretty much how it’s described; from the point of view of the projectile, the ship “jumps” out of the way.
Its pretty much utopia - death is optional, appearance, gender, even species is a choice that can be switched pretty much at will..... The Federation does not have the tech really yet to be anywhere near the Culture.
I would argue that in TNG, the federation pretty much has the technology for personalized mini-planet-satellite-space-island things, I forget what they're called in the culture. They certainly don't have the tech to make self-sentient immortal AI robot things that the culture has. I would also say the federation could probably do a dyson sphere or dyson swarm if they actually wanted to do it, given how complicated all the warp technology and quantum torpedoes would actually be, and how complicated the technology for teleporters and replicators actually are compared to how easy they are depicted as being in the show.
I mean... I feel like I'm one of the only people who's realized that warp drives are actually near-perfect shields because they can warp space-time to bend the trajectory of incoming attacks to miss the ship, at least I've never seen any other trek fans actually bring up this point. Warp bubbles are great for moving fast, but are also the perfect shield. Heck if you're being cheeky you could make your enemy "hit themselves" with their own weapons.
There’s a bit in the TNG technical manual that describes shields from the projectile’s point of view and that’s pretty much how it’s described; from the point of view of the projectile, the ship “jumps” out of the way.
Mhmm, I've never read it. Form the on-screen perspective, the shields just seem to absorb the energy of attacks and heat up capacitors and cause explosions.
Its pretty much utopia - death is optional, appearance, gender, even species is a choice that can be switched pretty much at will..... The Federation does not have the tech really yet to be anywhere near the Culture.
I would argue that in TNG, the federation pretty much has the technology for personalized mini-planet-satellite-space-island things, I forget what they're called in the culture. They certainly don't have the tech to make self-sentient immortal AI robot things that the culture has. I would also say the federation could probably do a dyson sphere or dyson swarm if they actually wanted to do it, given how complicated all the warp technology and quantum torpedoes would actually be, and how complicated the technology for teleporters and replicators actually are compared to how easy they are depicted as being in the show.
I mean... I feel like I'm one of the only people who's realized that warp drives are actually near-perfect shields because they can warp space-time to bend the trajectory of incoming attacks to miss the ship, at least I've never seen any other trek fans actually bring up this point. Warp bubbles are great for moving fast, but are also the perfect shield. Heck if you're being cheeky you could make your enemy "hit themselves" with their own weapons.
There’s a bit in the TNG technical manual that describes shields from the projectile’s point of view and that’s pretty much how it’s described; from the point of view of the projectile, the ship “jumps” out of the way.
There is also very few battles at warp speed in the show - usually they drop out of warp to fight - mainly to have a battle with slow moving big ships and fast moving little ships but that's a choice for the show rather than the fictional universe
The Federation also has cultural restrictions not present in the Culture - so they don;t like genetic engineering, artificial lifeforms and have very little anti-ageing / death tech. They can/could/have do/done some of these very well but choose not to (often with good reasons). Again some of this is a reflection of our culture rather than actually making sense
In contrast the Culture has perfected all of these and the point of existence in the Culture is mostly to find something fun and interesting to do - anything unpleasant and dull being done by non sentient machines. In fact the Minds don;t need organic life forms really on their ships but they like them.... And if you get tired of life - you can go to sleep for a few hundred years, choose to die... Everyone (unless they choose not to be) is backed up so ageing, death is a choice which makes sense if you are a post scarcity society.
Voyager of course. Because Janeway is always right and has reality-bending powers that make any task trivial.
Also she makes admiraling effortless. No need to bother her with details, objectives or intent. Just tell her to go there and do her thing, and things will simply resolve themselves. Less time in tedious briefings and strategy meetings means more time sitting on a beach and sipping your favorite drink.
I’ve previously suggested remaking it as Battlestar Trek, with Voyager, and its fancy Dan neural gel packs being the key to repairing other Alpha Quadrant ships and them setting forth on the long road home.
But even just One Ship One Journey? Just remove the per-episode reset. Let lasting damage act up now and again, the ongoing, never ending effort to keep the ship flying central. Let us see Janeway develop an ever more pragmatic mindset, even turning a not quite blind eye to normally verboten solutions and that. See her and the crews noble ideals constantly tested against the need and desire to survive and get home.
See stuff like Tuvix? Let us see how it impacts the crew when, mere weeks or even months later, they encounter a new solution which could’ve ensured the existence of all three beings.
Oh, and whatever you do? Make Neelix less annoying. All he does is serve as evidence of Janeway’s utter contempt for her crew.
How so? He’s a know-nothing pain in the arse, and she made him morale officer.
Voyager certainly had issues in that the opening set it self up for a DS9 evolution style series and then the producers went for "alien of the week" early TNG style storytelling which yeah its hard to get a sense of the stress the Voyager crew were under when each week the ship was repaired; they had food and energy; they had almost everything and in all truth they'd spent less time away from home than Original series or TNG on their long exploratory missions
Heck if you REALLY wanted to mess with the formula and sell the insane distances involved have each week be a new year or half year timejump. Show is a crew aging before our eyes - new generations coming along; old ones telling stories of the Federation that they are heading toward - a ship that's perhaps more cobbled together and fixed up and perhaps has a few hanging-on ships flying along with it
Going back to the BSG well, one of the things I found intriguing but never got fully explored is the fact that the 12 colonies know that they came from somewhere else in the universe, but so long ago it’s all myth and rumour, so having Voyager: The Next Generation being literal is a really interesting idea. A bunch of young people trying to reach an almost mythical homeland, not because they’ve ever seen it, but to honour the wishes of their forebears.
I had a weird dream last night about Star Trek: The Next Generation... I was going to a theater to see the reboot by director Guy Ritchie.
I could hear my friends complaining, but I thought it was the best thing ever.
STAR TREK: THE NEXT GENERATION (Cast)
Jason Statham as Picard
Henry Cavill as Riker
Jared Harris as a Starfleet Admiral
Eiza González as Troi
Mark Strong as Data
Edris Elba as Worf
Vinnie Jones as a Starfleet Security Officer
Charlie Hunnam as Miles O'Brian....
There was no Dr. Crusher, at least that I can remember.
I think I need to go pitch this idea to Paramount.
Jadenim wrote: Going back to the BSG well, one of the things I found intriguing but never got fully explored is the fact that the 12 colonies know that they came from somewhere else in the universe, but so long ago it’s all myth and rumour, so having Voyager: The Next Generation being literal is a really interesting idea. A bunch of young people trying to reach an almost mythical homeland, not because they’ve ever seen it, but to honour the wishes of their forebears.
There’s definitely fun to be had there. What happens when a short term exploration ship becomes a generational ship?
Just, from the start? Agree “no faster than Warp” engine solution. Keep that physics fixed. And expand how long the journey will take. Perhaps allow a Wormhole here and there to shave off some years. But make it a gruelling Wagon Train To The Stars type affair.
Throw in one of those portal things. I can’t for the life of me google it or remember the name. But the one the Jem Hadar try to use. That one. Let some of the crew return, so Starfleet knows they survived.
And whilst we’re retconning? When Picard bumps off the Borg Queen? The Borg as a unified whole are the done, allowing Voyager’s crew to see the aftermath. Maybe help the now aimless drones form a more benign society and that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In fact? Sod it. Let’s brainstorm a loose season arc. We’ll stick to the existing episode length, count and number of seasons.
I think I’d want Janeway still around for the first three seasons. Let it cover 30-40 years or so. Around the end of season 2, it becomes apparent she’s not as sharp as a Captain needs to be, and it’s time to appoint a successor, and consider who’s going to get trained in what from the younger folk. A line of succession if you like. Close of Season 3, she’s gone from old age.
Jadenim wrote: Going back to the BSG well, one of the things I found intriguing but never got fully explored is the fact that the 12 colonies know that they came from somewhere else in the universe, but so long ago it’s all myth and rumour, so having Voyager: The Next Generation being literal is a really interesting idea. A bunch of young people trying to reach an almost mythical homeland, not because they’ve ever seen it, but to honour the wishes of their forebears.
There’s definitely fun to be had there. What happens when a short term exploration ship becomes a generational ship?
Just, from the start? Agree “no faster than Warp” engine solution. Keep that physics fixed. And expand how long the journey will take. Perhaps allow a Wormhole here and there to shave off some years. But make it a gruelling Wagon Train To The Stars type affair.
Throw in one of those portal things. I can’t for the life of me google it or remember the name. But the one the Jem Hadar try to use. That one. Let some of the crew return, so Starfleet knows they survived.
And whilst we’re retconning? When Picard bumps off the Borg Queen? The Borg as a unified whole are the done, allowing Voyager’s crew to see the aftermath. Maybe help the now aimless drones form a more benign society and that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In fact? Sod it. Let’s brainstorm a loose season arc. We’ll stick to the existing episode length, count and number of seasons.
I think I’d want Janeway still around for the first three seasons. Let it cover 30-40 years or so. Around the end of season 2, it becomes apparent she’s not as sharp as a Captain needs to be, and it’s time to appoint a successor, and consider who’s going to get trained in what from the younger folk. A line of succession if you like. Close of Season 3, she’s gone from old age.
Nevermind wagon train, your more into age of exploration, years from home in the “here be dragons” bit of the map, ruins of ancient civilisations, exotic cultures you could never even imagine, etc.
The portals you’re thinking of are the Iconians, but they’re tricky to use from a story-writing point of view as they’re so powerful and it can feel very contrived as to why you can’t just send everyone home instantly. Maybe have it glitching so that you can only send a transmission, or an inanimate object.
I like the idea of fragmented Borg, gives them a reason to be substantially less threatening, without having to muck around with species 8472 and, like you say, you can explore different styles of Borg, perhaps influenced by whatever drones were in that bit of the collective. You could also have a shattered transwarp system, which would give the ship a reason to interact with the Borg, rather than just fleeing in the opposite direction, because if you can find the right conduit it can bounce you several hundred light years in the right direction.
Season 1 could be survival mode; rationing, a dwindling crew desperately trying to adapt Federation principles to their new reality (a bit like Year of Hell, but maybe a little lighter). Season 2 could be the original crew, but settled into their new reality. A more hodgepodge ship, with various new crew members from different Delta quadrant species. Maybe the beginnings of the rag tag fleet, with aliens who hear about the ideals of the Federation and think, hmmm that sounds like a much better place to live. Maybe other refugees, lost or displaced into space. Season 3 is the next generation taking over from the last few original crew members and finding their own way.
Lathe Biosas wrote: If you had to send one Star Trek ship and her crew to save the galaxy, who would you send?
1. Star Trek: Enterprise - NX-01 Enterprise
2. Star Trek: The Original Series - USS Enterprise (NCC-1701)
- USS Enterprise (NCC-1701-A)
3. Star Trek: The Next Generation - USS Enterprise (NCC-1701-D)
- USS Enterprise (NCC-1701-E)
4. Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - USS Defiant (NX-74205)
5. Star Trek: Voyager - USS Voyager (NCC-74656)
6. Star Trek: Discovery - USS Discovery (NCC-1031)
7. Star Trek: Picard - USS Stargazer (NCC-82893)
- La Sirena (Rios' ship)
8. Star Trek: Lower Decks - USS Cerritos (NCC-75567)
9. Star Trek: Prodigy - USS Protostar (NCC-78915)
10. Star Trek: Strange New Worlds - USS Enterprise (NCC-1701) (Captain Pike's ship)
11. Star Trek [Kelvin Timeline] - USS Enterprise (NCC-1701) (from the reboot films)
I think this is meant to be a fun way to state your favorite crew but in actuality if you need to save the galaxy you just need to send one person: Michael Burnham. She saves the Galaxy at least once a year all by herself. Not my favorite show but she is a professional universe saver...
It also took the concept of an elevator and made it operate in its own sub-dimension with micro-teleporters appearing to move the tube through the area. Which just made for one awesome fight sequence and Trek fans just baffled at the madness of the whole idea of a micro-universe just for the turbolift and - if its already teleporting struts in all the time - why not just teleport the crew a to b
Oh, and to answer my own question, I'd have to pick Janeway. Because even if she failed to save the day, she would figure out some sort of bizarre Time Travel nonsense to return from the future to repair the past... again.
Overread wrote: It also took the concept of an elevator and made it operate in its own sub-dimension with micro-teleporters appearing to move the tube through the area. Which just made for one awesome fight sequence and Trek fans just baffled at the madness of the whole idea of a micro-universe just for the turbolift and - if its already teleporting struts in all the time - why not just teleport the crew a to b
I'm watching the the series for the first time, and I really get the impression that the showrunners felt unrestrained 90% of the time, and then there would be fan backlash and the writers would backtrack a little and go... "Wait those were mirror universe/Section 31/etc" to explain away inconsistencies with the rest of the Star Trek shows that came before.
I forget what their reason for the Klingons growing their hair was. They were apparently all just shaving their heads in the first season but they decided to let it grow out in season two, which really hides the coneheads rather well.
AduroT wrote: I forget what their reason for the Klingons growing their hair was. They were apparently all just shaving their heads in the first season but they decided to let it grow out in season two, which really hides the coneheads rather well.
They say in the show that all Klingons shave their heads bald when they go to war.
Guess Martok or Gowron never went to war then. Neither did Kahless or any of the ancient Klingon heroes.
Some Picts used to go to war Skyclad. Now? Not so much.
Attitudes and traditions change.
Plus, the Disco Klingons were about “Stay Klingon”. Maintain a certain, perceived, purity.
Consider major global religions, and the sects within. Some maintain super strict traditions. Some are kinda lip service, and everything in between.
The weakness there is painting Klingons as a homogenous whole, rather than T’Kuvma being a radical outlier, and the resulting war being more than Klingons being Klingons, and just enjoying a really good punch up.
Making anything fit with TOS is a losing battle. It's a show from the 60s with a limited budget and some exceptionally ropey stories that were the first step into what ended up being one of the biggest sci-fi properties ever.
To be clear, I'm not excusing the hairless Klingons or their weird ships but rather the likes of the Gorn being different to a dude in a rubber dinosaur costume or some SNW things not adding perfectly up with TOS.
Discovery should have been made to fit with the aesthetics set by Enterprise, which I believe SNW is doing much better.
The aesthetics are there, they're just made with modern technology and materials.
Yeah even back when we only had TOS, TNG, DS9 and Voyager everyone generally agreed that whilst TOS was "cannon" there were a bunch of things in it that you just kind of overlooked or knew were a bit wonky and didn't translate into the more serious tone that TNG started.
Honestly one of the best things about Lower Decks was seeing them bring back a bunch of references to TOS stuff and honestly of many ST series Lower Decks actually probably does the best at trying to blend a bit of everything, primarily from the 4 major classic series - into one functional continuity .
It's a video that Allison Burke put out the shows someone suffering to someone saying, Where does this shape go? And no matter the response given, he puts the shape in the square hole... and she becomes more distressed throughout the video.
Overread wrote: It also took the concept of an elevator and made it operate in its own sub-dimension with micro-teleporters appearing to move the tube through the area. Which just made for one awesome fight sequence and Trek fans just baffled at the madness of the whole idea of a micro-universe just for the turbolift and - if its already teleporting struts in all the time - why not just teleport the crew a to b
Until that moment the dumbest moment in all Star Treks IMO was that time Janeway and Paris turned into Salamanders had babies and then somehow turned back into humans 5 minutes later. That somehow is not as dumb as the idea that the turbolift isn't a tube. It's a tube!!!!
Overread wrote: It also took the concept of an elevator and made it operate in its own sub-dimension with micro-teleporters appearing to move the tube through the area. Which just made for one awesome fight sequence and Trek fans just baffled at the madness of the whole idea of a micro-universe just for the turbolift and - if its already teleporting struts in all the time - why not just teleport the crew a to b
Until that moment the dumbest moment in all Star Treks IMO was that time Janeway and Paris turned into Salamanders had babies and then somehow turned back into humans 5 minutes later. That somehow is not as dumb as the idea that the turbolift isn't a tube. It's a tube!!!!
I must have suppressed the memory of watching that episode because I had completely forgotten about that whole bit. Initially I was "what are they talking about?" and slowly it started filtering through and now I am sad.
Overread wrote: It also took the concept of an elevator and made it operate in its own sub-dimension with micro-teleporters appearing to move the tube through the area. Which just made for one awesome fight sequence and Trek fans just baffled at the madness of the whole idea of a micro-universe just for the turbolift and - if its already teleporting struts in all the time - why not just teleport the crew a to b
Until that moment the dumbest moment in all Star Treks IMO was that time Janeway and Paris turned into Salamanders had babies and then somehow turned back into humans 5 minutes later. That somehow is not as dumb as the idea that the turbolift isn't a tube. It's a tube!!!!
I must have suppressed the memory of watching that episode because I had completely forgotten about that whole bit. Initially I was "what are they talking about?" and slowly it started filtering through and now I am sad.
It makes be feel better to remember that Janeway would've killed every member of the Discovery after watching the Equinox two parter.
That's another bit I've been wondering about, oh forum, which Captain do you think was the most psychotic?
Between Archer's "I didn't have a choice," to Sisko's Cardassian outlook on sacrifices need to be made to the greater good to Janeways, "feth the timeliness, I'm getting my people home."
Burnham. The others might be occasionally harsh but they are generally consistent in their approach whereas Burnham is erratic and entirely about her own sense of self righteousness. She'll punch out her crewmates with little thought then go on to give a big speech about how great Starfleet is then immediately ignore Starfleet orders and regulations and follow that up with promoting an inexperienced ensign to Executive Officer. If we found out she was an agent sent to destabilize the crew and/or Starfleet it wouldn't be a surprise.
Sisko wasn’t psychotic. And Garak was absolutely right.
What they did was evil, but in the context of turning the tide of a war which would’ve seen the Alpha and Beta quadrants crushed in time? The literal handful of lives it cost were, beyond shadow of a doubt, worth it.
Hell, Starfleet Captains knowingly, and necessarily, risk the lives of their crew every single damned day. That comes with the job. Picard and Kirk have lost more lives in a single scrap than Sisko and Garak took that day. It’s that criminal (dead anyway as he was on a Klingon death row) Vreenak and his shuttle’s crew. Being the same approximate size as a Runabout. Memory Alpha suggests it had an estimated accommodation for 15. And presumably had a similar crew complement as a Danube class, so let’s call that three more, tops. And it’s possible Vreenak flew it himself (have just stuck it on my telly to confirm or deny that last bit, as I genuinely can’t remember if we see other Romulans with him)
So, we see two bodyguards board the station with Vreenak. But I can’t imagine they’d leave the ship entirely unguarded. Add a pilot, co-pilot, ops and probably two more guards, and I’d argue Sisko’s plan cost seven lives.
I’d agree Burnham. No idea how she gained captaincy with her long, opposite-of-glittering career of blatant insubordination and Just Sort Of Buggering Off For A Bit When It Suits Her.
Some might argue Jellicoe. But keep in mind whilst very different from Picard, he was the right man for the job when it came to dealing with Cardassians.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Bit of a commentary on In The Pale Moonlight whilst I’m at it.
Just noticed something I’ve not really clocked before. When Sisko goes to ask Garak for his help? Sisko demands he dispense with Garak’s usual frippery and double speak.
Garak knows from that point, even if Sisko doesn’t, he has carte blanche to go Full Garak. And tells Sisko that. Right there and then. To his face. It will be messy. It will be bloody.
Now I’m not claiming genius for spotting this, and I’m sure others made that waaaay before me. But what a fantastic scene. Solid script, outstanding acting from both.
We also get to see one of my favourite things about Star Trek. Garak, his cunning little grey cells whirring away whilst he maintains his usual obtuse exterior. And the impression that he’d conceived this entire plan ages ago, and that it’s but one of many he’s squirrelled away, waiting for the day when it’s the right plan.
And just a hint of satisfaction that, as he’s long known, The Federation are not the sickening goody two shoes they like to present themselves as. Garak is having fun.
I’ve just been on a DS9 rewatch and by God, are seasons 5-7 good (season 5 particularly). I always knew it was my favourite Star Trek, but I’d forgotten (or didn’t realise) why!
The thing that made In the Pale Moonlight such a fantastic episode, beyond the performances being great, is its grasp of political realism which while dramatic is not hyperbolic in getting both the general point (the ends can justify the means) and horrible implications of that point (if the ends justify the means, then where is the line between good and evil, or is there really no line at all at a certain scale).
Season 1 could be survival mode; rationing, a dwindling crew desperately trying to adapt Federation principles to their new reality (a bit like Year of Hell, but maybe a little lighter). Season 2 could be the original crew, but settled into their new reality. A more hodgepodge ship, with various new crew members from different Delta quadrant species. Maybe the beginnings of the rag tag fleet, with aliens who hear about the ideals of the Federation and think, hmmm that sounds like a much better place to live. Maybe other refugees, lost or displaced into space. Season 3 is the next generation taking over from the last few original crew members and finding their own way.
The problem with that approach is that people get attached to the original crew, and lose interest in the show when it jumps to new characters. Better to rip that bandaid off from the start - keep the original Voyager intro story, but then once they discover that they're stranded in the Delta Quadrant, immediately time jump to, say, 60 years in the future, with a crew now made up of the kids and grandkids of the original crew, and the sole remaining original crew member an infirm and on-the-edge-of-death Captain Kim.
Or, hell, go all in and remove all of the original crew and have their intergenerational replacements being led 'home' by the Doctor...
