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Section 31 has an abysmally low 20% rotten score and a 17% audience score on Rotten Tomatoes, which leads to this question, why is the internet acting like they are want a sequel?
Shills and bots are very positively inclined towards modern audience focused media. As for the linked article, they're basically asking Michelle Yeoh is she'd like another multimillion dollar paycheck. I can't blame her for enthusiastically saying yes to that. Heck, I'd let them blow me out of an airlock for a much less than that!
2025/02/02 14:18:40
Subject: Star Trek: general discussion-Picard, Discovery, Lower Decks (and Orville)
That the writers, director and producers of Section 31 utterly missed that doesn’t mean the concept is dead.
And at least that stupid Oirish thing won’t be back.
Agreed. The concept could still be interesting and worth exploring. Unfortunately, Hollywood has a tendency to take the wrong message from poor reviews and/or revenues. They'll often blame the idea rather than look more closely at the flawed execution.
2025/02/03 09:51:20
Subject: Star Trek: general discussion-Picard, Discovery, Lower Decks (and Orville)
We have to look at what made Section 31 such an interesting device in DS9, which I’m pretty sure was their debut.
They sought to maintain the security of the Federation, and its ideals, by doing things the Federation wouldn’t. And Odo sums up the interesting thing.
Odo wrote:Interesting, isn't it? The Federation claims to abhor Section 31's tactics, but when they need the dirty work done, they look the other way. It's a tidy little arrangement, wouldn't you say?
And this is of course kind of bookended with Sisko’s actions, and Garak’s excellent point about Sisko’s outrage during In The Pale Moonlight
Garak wrote: That's why you came to me, isn't it, Captain? Because you knew I could do those things that you weren't capable of doing? Well, it worked. And you'll get what you want: a war between the Romulans and the Dominion. And if your conscience is bothering you, you should soothe it with the knowledge that you may have just saved the entire Alpha Quadrant. And all it cost was the life of one Romulan senator, one criminal, and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer. I don't know about you, but I'd call that a bargain.
And Quark’s wisdom on hu-mons to his nephew
Quark wrote: Let me tell you something about Humans, Nephew. They’re a wonderful, friendly people, as long as their bellies are full and their holo-suites are working. But take away their creature comforts, deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers, put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people… will become as nasty and as violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon. You don’t believe me? Look at those faces. Look in their eyes.
Three separate episodes, but all adding in to the arguable requirement for something like Section 31’s existence, even if some of the exact methods are seen as too much.
And that’s unique to The Federation. Its ideals are held up as peaceful and humanitarian, except….few if any of their foes are ever going to play by those self imposed rules.
You know what could work now I’ve thought about it? A Trek murder mystery of sorts. Where a crew tries to figure out who among them is the Section 31 operative.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Zed wrote: *All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
2025/02/03 18:00:55
Subject: Star Trek: general discussion-Picard, Discovery, Lower Decks (and Orville)
I think anything Section 31 needs to be a study in relative morals.
The Federation is, more or less, defined by lofty ideals. Not just “aren’t we great” ideals. But “this is where we want to get to” ideals. Something it and Starfleet are constantly aspiring to achieve.
And we’ve seen all our Captains have to show some flexibility here and there in the face of those ideals.
Let’s stick with DS9, and Sisko’s plan to drag the Romulans into the war, whilst there’s still a chance of victory.
His plan, in its purest form, was basically Tell A Really Convincing Porky Pie. It was detailed, and ultimately was a decent plan.
From what we the viewer had seen of the Dominion, the hypothesis that the non-aggression pact would only last as long as it suited the Dominion seemed accurate. And so, sooner or later, the Romulans would be involved.
The plan simply brought that forward, in the hopes of preserving untold billions of lives in the Alpha Quadrant. And that’s an important distinction. Not Federation lives, Alpha Quadrant lives. Klingon, Bajoran, Romulan, Cardassian, Ferengi - all species great and small.
But? Garak’s implementation of that plan was better. And his logic was airtight. Importantly, it was a back up to Sisko’s. Had the holoplay passed muster, you could leave it there.
But it didn’t, did it. And at a comparatively tiny a cost? The job got done and proved to be a major turning point in the conflict.
We also see attempts, successful and not, to skirt the Prime Directive, where it’s the only thing preventing an option presented as the moral choice.
Stuff I think they could play with in terms of what’s happened in the past? How about Section 31 helping to facilitate Lursa and Betor’s alliance with the Romulans? Knowing that the discovery would secure Gowron’s position, and that he was the friendlier and more honourable candidate to lead the Klingons, whilst also keeping the Romulans’ own machinations in check.
Things like that. Not moustache twirling villainy for the sake of moustache twirling villainy. Just strategic allowing of Awful Things, to prevent Far More Awful Things. An assassination here, a stitch up there, a pawn (oh hai Orion Syndicate) or cats paw at the right time. Play in those moral grey areas, weighing the cost of your own evil, against the price of doing nothing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2025/02/07 22:55:49
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
I think one issue is that Second 31 is a scalpel cutting at the risks to the Federation. Since DS9 though there's been more and more of a push to make Second 31 into more of a hammer.
A really big hammer - a super big one that smashes stuff in epic ways. The problem with that is it loses its covert feel; you lose the subtle elements and just end up with brute force.
We've gone from the smart and sly Garrak to the more blunt and brutish Klingon Warlord. From something that would use few agents in key positions to very carefully adjust outcomes to better the Federation's continued existence to something that's so much more epic, but also overt and large scale that it becomes harder to see it as something hidden.
In theory Section 31 are the ultimate spies because they have no actual alliance with the faction they work for the preservation of.
I think it’s important to keep in mind that when we the audience first found out about Section 31, it was when the crew of DS9 found out about Section 31. So, unlike the Obsidian Order or Tal Shiar, they’re “proper” Black Ops, not a tool of control.
If nobody knows you exist, how can they watch out for your operatives? And with the diverse species comprising the Federation, you’ve ample opportunity to insert operatives pretty much anywhere. And even enemy intelligence suspects your existence, being separate from The Federation, let alone Starfleet, is going to make it much easier to keep even those organisations guessing.
There’s an awful lot of interesting and thought provoking narratives in that mine. It just takes non-hack writers to really bring it out and explore it in the right way.
And for heaven’s sake? Don’t offer a moral conclusion. Leave that to us viewers. Present the actions, offer ambiguous moral relativism. We’ll happily argue over that for, well, ever. And that means we’ll keep watching and rewatching.
Just….keep it scalpel sharp as you said. Lots of tiny, highly strategic interventions to allow The Federation to thrive.
Heck, draw some inspiration from 40k’s Inquisition. Have its own factions. Have hyper competent operatives, and reckless operatives. Have them operating in a decentralised manner, perhaps with ostensible oversight over set areas, but secretly two or three, all keeping an eye on each other, ensuring plans work and nothing too stupid is attempted.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2025/02/07 23:39:09
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
I'd argue 40K's inquisition is a hammer Even when its trying to be stealthy.
Honestly I think Garrak is the best example - some of his twists and turns don't even involve him "doing" anything; just passing info from one person to another and letting them play out the actions like puppets. Being smart enough to predict and then control their actions without them realising that they are being manipulated.
Heck you could even mess with the audience and characters and pull a revelation that they don't even know they are part of Section 31 and that someone else was pulling their strings!
Garak is definitely a masterfully written character. As is Dukat to be honest. The main difference is Dukat is almost entirely selfish, whereas Garak is….well never altruistic, and not just because “altruism is not do an exist’. But he’s always looking at the bigger picture.
Both are deliberately and purposefully mercurial characters. In the hands of a poor writer, you’d end up with an inconsistent plot device character, who only does a given thing because something has to move the plot along *cough Janeway cough the character, not the actress, cough* . Garak and Dukat however both feel like their actions have purpose and intended goals in keeping with each’s world view. And importantly? They feel like Cardassians, not Humans. Sly. Cunning. Ruthless.
Oh man. Did DS9 ruin Star Trek by being so well written when it mattered?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2025/02/07 23:58:26
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Both of them dream of a powerful successful Cardassia. Dukat has more of a selfish edges to him by far, but be under no illusions that both want to be the ones pulling the strings as much as possible.
However as I see it Garak is open to many different interpretations of a strong Cardassia which is why we generally kind of see a change in his approach as more of the insidious Federation gets into him. He can basically see a future that isn't based on conquest.
He can also see how the Federation changes minds and integrates other cultures into itself very successfully without need to conquer. Meanwhile he spends his time on DS9 orbiting a single planet that the Cardassians failed to tame. Here he is watching whole races like the Ferangi working toward social change and integration into the Federation (in time); whilst factions like the Klingons fail to be able to leave.
Meanwhile he's the constant reminder that every boot and gun that tried to tame one single backwater world - failed.
Dukat on the other hand, can't change. He maintains the view that the only strong Cardassia is one that invades with brute force; that the only way to spread their culture is through the lash; that the only way to protect themselves is to lash out and conquer.
I'd say that's part of the difference between them. I guess another is that if you look at them deep down - Garak is prepared to entertain the notion of peace; whilst Dukat thrives in war. Not like a Klingon enjoying the thrill of combat itself; but as a conquerer.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2025/02/08 00:04:41
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Bloody good points all. But I’d argue Dukat’s vision of a strong Cardassia is specifically a Cardassia doing big invasions where Dukat is the top dog.
Have stuck on some DS9, as I’ve got myself hype for its competent writing and character development.
Garak too wants to be top - he's just content being top in the shadows; which he also sees as the where the real strength in Cardiassia is. Which makes sense as the Obsidian Order he was a part of basically was the ruling power in all but name for a long time.
But yes I agree Dukat want's to be head of Cardassia and his Cardiassia is a strong empire building warmachine that will bring its way of life to all by force or crush them entirely.
Another interesting thought - of the two Garak is the most honest and Dukat the most slimy. Which when you consider Garak hardly ever gives a straight answer seems wrong and yet the statement also feels "right". Or perhaps we at least see many more instances of Garak being honest at the start and the finish whilst Dukat you never know what to expect
They both clearly enjoy their work though, getting genuine kicks and amusement from knowing more about what’s going on than anyone else, even when it doesn’t necessarily benefit them.
Just thinking further. Garak is often found discussing Cardassian culture with Bashir. The one that sticks in my mind is Cardassian Mystery Literature. Where the guessing game isn’t “whodunnit” but “whodunnwot because they all dunnsomething”. Now that’s a fun little aside in itself, and helps paint Cardassian society as an authoritarian hellhole. But Garak and Dukat both feel like products of that society.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
They very much are, however going back to my point about Garak being open to other views he can even see by the end that even IF he helps make Cardassia great again he might well not be a part of it in the end. There's a glimmer in him that he revels in power that his position and talents give him; but at the same time he can see a "retirement"
Dukat doesn't see that. He is/was/always will be the conquering ruler. He would never surrender power.
Garak I think would - on some level he's not driven by being power-hungry even though he clearly enjoys being in positions of power
Maybe its because he fall from grace and became a tailor and embraced it in the end; whilst Dukat fell (several times) but never accepted it. And the one time it seemed he almost did he went rather mad with religion and suicide groups
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2025/02/08 00:26:19
I guess a chunk of Garak is that he’s experienced life outside of the propaganda. Sure, the folks he engages with aren’t and will never be Cardassians. No, they’re never going to see eye to eye on every issue.
But, possibly because of Obsidian Order training, he’s a flexibility of mindset to see that the job can be done in a number of ways.
I do wonder how many off-screen chats he might’ve had with Quark. Quark, the bartender. A useful man to know, but also one who in himself isn’t a threat. And like Garak, kind of an exile living among others if you look at Quarks situation through the right lens. Then we have this exchange.
That 3rd rule of acquisition. It can be turned to a Strong Cardassia.
And so, exposed to many different cultures and points of view, I’m certain Garak would’ve been left with a lot of time to mull it over. Lift a little from Culture A, a little from Culture B. Get a bit….Federation…in your thinking. See that your overall objective has a number of approaches.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2025/02/08 00:35:47
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
I think one thing scenes like that gave us, esp with Quark who got a good few of them, is that we see the person raised within a very specific culture dealing with situations outside of the element that greatest defines their culture.
Often in shows we see the "cultural warlord" in loads of warlord and battle situations.
In DS9 we really got to see, multiple times, how a character like Quark deals with situations and interprets situations way outside of just profit generation. Even though he might sell a vulcan on peace within the framework of a financial transaction; you can see that its his way of expressing a concept.
We see this in other ST as well, but often its more of a token episode that focuses on that character dealing with that situation in the extreme and then never really rears its head again. DS9 its lots of little scenes; which makes it feel far more real.
I think one thing DS9 did in its favour more than others is that because there was no "Bridge Crew**" and no producers/writers trying to re-create Kirk/Spock/McCoy bridge crew elements - we got to see life from a LOT more viewpoints and character backgrounds; heck if they were on a spaceship I bet you we'd have seen a Redshirt become a key reappearing character*
*one could argue a redshirt that doesn't die when they appear might not be a true redshirt though
** In fact you can even argue that Sisko in many cases is often almost more of a side character than main. Which is a really interesting dynamic when in every other ST the Captain is very much the central character
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2025/02/08 00:46:38
I’m telling you, Deep Space Nine ruined Star Trek.
It absolutely had its outright duds, but that’s just serialised TV for you. But when it was good? It was absolutely superb. Considered, thought provoking, sometimes morally challenging.
Even the Changelings had certain sympathetic angle to their history and motivations. Not in a way which justified the brutality of the modern Dominion, but enough to see why they started down that path.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Three separate episodes, but all adding in to the arguable requirement for something like Section 31’s existence, even if some of the exact methods are seen as too much.
And that’s unique to The Federation. Its ideals are held up as peaceful and humanitarian, except….few if any of their foes are ever going to play by those self imposed rules.
You know what could work now I’ve thought about it? A Trek murder mystery of sorts. Where a crew tries to figure out who among them is the Section 31 operative.
A better (IMO) version of Section 31 is Special Circumstances for the Culture - a far more advanced society than the Federation which still needs "people" to deal with tricky problems.
Special Circumstances is part of a larger fictional Culture organisation called Contact, which coordinates Culture interactions with (and in) other less-developed, universe-aware civilisations. SC exists to fulfil this role when circumstances exceed the moral capacity of Contact, or where the situation is highly complex and requires highly specialized skills, such as in The Player of Games. Special Circumstances also does the "dirty work" of the Culture, a function made especially complicated by the normally very high ethical standards the Culture sets itself
.
Banks has noted that the perfect society of the Culture creates well-adjusted, content people.Therefore, many of the Culture novels deal with outside agents or mercenaries in the employ of Special Circumstances.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2025/02/09 13:25:40
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
I finally got around to catching up on Lower Decks and the episode where they were picking a new Chief Science Officer and ended with "we'll make both Science Officer!" felt like a massive cop out.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2025/02/10 14:58:50
Subject: Star Trek: general discussion-Picard, Discovery, Lower Decks (and Orville)
Three separate episodes, but all adding in to the arguable requirement for something like Section 31’s existence, even if some of the exact methods are seen as too much.
And that’s unique to The Federation. Its ideals are held up as peaceful and humanitarian, except….few if any of their foes are ever going to play by those self imposed rules.
You know what could work now I’ve thought about it? A Trek murder mystery of sorts. Where a crew tries to figure out who among them is the Section 31 operative.
A better (IMO) version of Section 31 is Special Circumstances for the Culture - a far more advanced society than the Federation which still needs "people" to deal with tricky problems.
Special Circumstances is part of a larger fictional Culture organisation called Contact, which coordinates Culture interactions with (and in) other less-developed, universe-aware civilisations. SC exists to fulfil this role when circumstances exceed the moral capacity of Contact, or where the situation is highly complex and requires highly specialized skills, such as in The Player of Games. Special Circumstances also does the "dirty work" of the Culture, a function made especially complicated by the normally very high ethical standards the Culture sets itself
.
Banks has noted that the perfect society of the Culture creates well-adjusted, content people.Therefore, many of the Culture novels deal with outside agents or mercenaries in the employ of Special Circumstances.
I've read a few of the culture books, its an interesting concept. After reading them I have wondered why the federation doesn't have people building their own private space-island-stations orbiting around suns or planets or whatever.
Nostalgically Yours
2025/02/10 15:20:48
Subject: Star Trek: general discussion-Picard, Discovery, Lower Decks (and Orville)
I do like the hypocrisy of the Federation when it comes to Section 31. Probably because I can see how its shenanigans can be useful in preserving the wider Federation and its ideals.
It is perverse, and exactly the sort of moral quandary Trek can deal with in thought provoking ways.
In The Pale Moonlight, whilst not Section 31, does show that highly strategic acts of evil can, in the wider picture, be justified, at least to some degree.
My interest is in exactly where the line is drawn. For instance, the attempted, and was probably going to work, genocide of the Founders. Given the clear and present danger, was that unjustified?
I’d say no, as the scale of evil is vast compared to ITPM’s. Yes you get rid of the Founders, you get rid of the Dominion. But it’s more than just exterminating an entire species and culture. The Dominion would collapse. Nobody would be around to issue orders to the Jem Hadar. Who knows what other evils might arise from the resulting power vacuum?~
But put that on screen. Show us where the ends no longer justify the means.
Heck, set it in a Post-DS9 era, possibly shortly after, where with its existence more or less exposed, it now needs to justify its actions.
That gives an excuse to revisit old episodes, revealing where a nudge here, prod there, ensured a beneficial and peaceful outcome.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Three separate episodes, but all adding in to the arguable requirement for something like Section 31’s existence, even if some of the exact methods are seen as too much.
And that’s unique to The Federation. Its ideals are held up as peaceful and humanitarian, except….few if any of their foes are ever going to play by those self imposed rules.
You know what could work now I’ve thought about it? A Trek murder mystery of sorts. Where a crew tries to figure out who among them is the Section 31 operative.
A better (IMO) version of Section 31 is Special Circumstances for the Culture - a far more advanced society than the Federation which still needs "people" to deal with tricky problems.
Special Circumstances is part of a larger fictional Culture organisation called Contact, which coordinates Culture interactions with (and in) other less-developed, universe-aware civilisations. SC exists to fulfil this role when circumstances exceed the moral capacity of Contact, or where the situation is highly complex and requires highly specialized skills, such as in The Player of Games. Special Circumstances also does the "dirty work" of the Culture, a function made especially complicated by the normally very high ethical standards the Culture sets itself
.
Banks has noted that the perfect society of the Culture creates well-adjusted, content people.Therefore, many of the Culture novels deal with outside agents or mercenaries in the employ of Special Circumstances.
I've read a few of the culture books, its an interesting concept. After reading them I have wondered why the federation doesn't have people building their own private space-island-stations orbiting around suns or planets or whatever.
Its pretty much utopia - death is optional, appearance, gender, even species is a choice that can be switched pretty much at will..... The Federation does not have the tech really yet to be anywhere near the Culture.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
I still haven't wasted a moment of my life on Discovery Seasons 2-5 or Picard Seasons 2-3. And people generally say Picard Seasons 2 and 3 weren't the a gakky mass effect rip off with a Star Trek skin slapped onto it.
I don't watch gak I don't want them making more of. It's the only possible way to signal I don't like the direction of the franchise, and if nothing else I get to lord my superior self-control over all your plebians with low standards
(I kid)
But nah. I haven't seen anyone say much of anything good about S31 and have felt like I'm probably not missing anything skipping it. I've skipped other stuff people definitely have higher opinions of.
Because all my stuff is boxed up, it's just me and my pal ChatGPT.
The ol' chat Bot is only updated to October 2023, so he's not super current on TV shows, but I asked this horrible question and I thought you might enjoy the answer.
"If I wanted to watch all of Star Trek in chronological order how long would it take me?"
Spoiler:
Below is one way to estimate the overall time. (There is some wiggle‐room here—different shows have different exact episode lengths, and your “life necessities” will vary. But this gives an order‐of‐magnitude idea.)
1. Estimate the total screen time for all Star Trek TV shows and movies. For example, one rough breakdown is:
• The Original Series (TOS): about 79 episodes, roughly 50 minutes each
≈ 79 × 50 = 3,950 minutes
• The Animated Series (TAS): about 22 episodes, roughly 25 minutes each
≈ 22 × 25 = 550 minutes
• The Next Generation (TNG): about 178 episodes, roughly 45 minutes each
≈ 178 × 45 = 8,010 minutes
• Deep Space Nine (DS9): about 176 episodes, roughly 45 minutes each
≈ 176 × 45 = 7,920 minutes
• Voyager: about 172 episodes, roughly 45 minutes each
≈ 172 × 45 = 7,740 minutes
• Enterprise: about 98 episodes, roughly 45 minutes each
≈ 98 × 45 = 4,410 minutes
• More recent series (rough estimates):
– Discovery: roughly 55 episodes at ≈45 minutes each ≈ 2,475 minutes
– Picard: about 10 episodes at ≈55 minutes ≈ 550 minutes
– Lower Decks: roughly 30 episodes at ≈25 minutes ≈ 750 minutes
– Prodigy: roughly 16 episodes at ≈30 minutes ≈ 480 minutes
• Movies: There are 11 films in the various “epochs”:
– The four movies from the Original Series era: roughly 132, 110, 98, & 121 minutes (≈461 minutes total)
– The four films from the TNG era: roughly 118, 111, 103, & 116 minutes (≈448 minutes)
– The three “reboot” films from 2009 on: roughly 127, 132, & 122 minutes (≈381 minutes)
Total movie time: 461 + 448 + 381 ≈ 1,290 minutes
Now, adding the TV shows and movies together:
36,835 + 1,290 = 38,125 minutes
2. Convert minutes to hours/days of pure watching:
38,125 minutes ÷ 60 ≈ 635 hours
635 hours ÷ 24 ≈ 26.5 days of non‐stop viewing
3. Now factor in real life. If you need to eat, sleep, and take breaks, you won’t be watching 24 hours a day. A realistic “viewing schedule” might allow for around 8 hours of watching per day (after setting aside time for sleep, meals, and other necessities).
Divide the total viewing hours by 8 per day:
635 hours ÷ 8 ≈ 79.4 days, or about 80 days
Thus, if you dedicated around 8 hours a day exclusively to watching all Star Trek shows and movies in chronological order (with the rest of your time going to sleep, eating, and other necessities), you’d complete it in roughly 80 days—just under three months.
Note that these numbers are only approximations. The exact total will depend on the definitive runtime of each episode or film and your actual daily schedule.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2025/02/21 02:02:16
BorderCountess wrote: Just because you're doing something right doesn't necessarily mean you know what you're doing...
