8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) - Page 10 - Forum

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8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2020/01/27 19:24:20

Post by: Xenomancers

Lanlaorn wrote:
We're not playing Imperial Guard here, where the most points efficient damage reigns supreme because we can take as much of it as we want and the efficiency in quantity will win out.

A Grey Knight army will only have so many slots for psycannons or psilencers and with such a small absolute difference in point costs which is the better weapon, not better weapon per point cost, is absolutely a valid concern.

How many of these weapons are you realistically taking, how many points will you save and what will you spend those points on?

Exactly. You are taking units to get a certain amount of weapons. The difference in a purgation squad going from psi to psy is only 12 points. For 12 points you can engage a wider variety of targets. Including 3+ saves in cover. Including t8 vehicals. Including 2+ save units in the open. Plus you average more damage vs almost every unit. Certain low save and t but high wounds units the psi will beat but those don't really exist. Like I said - some psilencers might be warranted in 1 purgation squad for special work. The rest should probably be psycannons.

What is everyones opinion on GK Dreads with plasma cannon or a single MM and ML or even just a PF? Typically these would be terrible options but they are much more survivable than strikes and they can still smite!

Also the AP-3 is welcome. 101 points for a plasma ML dread. Throws out a 2 damage smite and can screen for characters. Venerable is 20 points more. I am thinking 3 of each might be a great base for a GK force.

8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2020/01/27 19:26:08

Post by: Waking Dreamer

Triple Riptide spam is still a thing. Triple Predators / heavy tank spam is still a thing.

Psycannon + stormbolters is good for a mono-GK take all comers army list. You don't want to have to blow 2CP every turn just to have a chance at scratching the opponent's heavy armour with GK guns - before your foot-slogging tries to hit them in combat.

8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2020/01/27 19:27:58

Post by: greyknight12

I tried running 2 purgation squads, one psilencer and one psycannon and having both was good.

8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2020/01/27 21:12:39

Post by: Azuza001

So I was thinking about running 6 teams of 5 man strike teams, with a single psilencer in each one. Gives bodies to spread out, more smite spam, and more psilencer output with the downgrade in max efficiency from powers and stratagems. Thoughts on this?

8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2020/01/27 21:33:00

Post by: Hulksmash

Azuza001 wrote:
So I was thinking about running 6 teams of 5 man strike teams, with a single psilencer in each one. Gives bodies to spread out, more smite spam, and more psilencer output with the downgrade in max efficiency from powers and stratagems. Thoughts on this?

I'm sitting pure at 2 battalions with 4x5 mans and 2x10 mans. Being able to keep them together for some match ups and for strat bonuses is nice when 2 extra mortals won't equal the same thing as a psybolt boost on 4 stormbolters. If they don't kill any I can always combat squad later.

8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2020/01/27 23:42:53

Post by: AlmightyWalrus

Am I missing something here or did GKs not get any new warlord traits?

8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2020/01/28 08:00:36

Post by: stormcraft

Psycannons are not better than Psilencers, not even against knights.

https://www.mathhammer8thed.com/web/

Punch in the Numbers for a purgation squad, 16 vs 24 shots, they do exaclty the same number of wounds against knights, without buffs or with convergence.

And Psilencers are cheaper, case closed imho.

8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2020/01/28 09:29:43

Post by: Waking Dreamer

stormcraft wrote:
Psycannons are not better than Psilencers, not even against knights.

https://www.mathhammer8thed.com/web/

Punch in the Numbers for a purgation squad, 16 vs 24 shots, they do exaclty the same number of wounds against knights, without buffs or with convergence.

And Psilencers are cheaper, case closed imho.

What numbers are you putting in exactly? Based on that very website there are clear differences across the main heavy armour vehicles:

vs Stormraven:
- Psilencer x4 (no Psychic Onslaught) = 5.33 damage
- Psycannon x4 (no Psychic Onslaught) = 7.11 damage

- Psilencer x4 (with Psychic Onslaught) = 8 damage
- Psycannon x4 (with Psychic Onslaught) = 9.48 damage

vs Riptide:
- Psilencer x4 (no Psychic Onslaught) = 2.66 damage
- Psycannon x4 (no Psychic Onslaught) = 4.74 damage

- Psilencer x4 (with Psychic Onslaught) = 5.33 damage
- Psycannon x4 (with Psychic Onslaught) = 7.11 damage

vs T8 Sv3+
- Psilencer x4 (no Psychic Onslaught) = 5.33 damage
- Psycannon x4 (no Psychic Onslaught) = 5.33 damage

- Psilencer x4 (with Psychic Onslaught) = 8 damage
- Psycannon x4 (with Psychic Onslaught) = 9.48 damage

vs Landraider:
- Psilencer x4 (no Psychic Onslaught) = 2.667 damage
- Psycannon x4 (no Psychic Onslaught) = 3.556 damage

- Psilencer x4 (with Psychic Onslaught) = 5.33 damage
- Psycannon x4 (with Psychic Onslaught) = 7.11 damage

Conclusion: 4 Psycannons are consistently punching through heavy armour harder than 4 Psilencers.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Am I missing something here or did GKs not get any new warlord traits?

They didn't, instead they got 6 new GK psychic powers and 6 new GK litanies.

8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2020/01/28 10:04:21

Post by: Spartacus

Spoiler:

It looks like in your previous posts you said you'd rather have 4 psycannons shooting at a knight than psilencers, even when not affected by the stratagem. By your own numbers it appears they are indeed the same dmg output in that scenario, so I imagine he's referring to that.

I'm not that impressed by the damage potential of either honestly, it still falls well short of what is considered 'efficient anti-tank' by recent standards, even after you pump so much resource into it, while having only 24 inch range. And to have to sacrifice the power of the Shadow and Escalation tides in order to do so just seems like a waste. MW spam appears to work well based on initial playtesting I've read about here and elsewhere

8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2020/01/28 10:28:13

Post by: Redemption

Waking Dreamer wrote:

Spoiler:

vs Stormraven:
- Psilencer x4 (no Psychic Onslaught) = 5.33 damage
- Psycannon x4 (no Psychic Onslaught) = 7.11 damage

- Psilencer x4 (with Psychic Onslaught) = 8 damage
- Psycannon x4 (with Psychic Onslaught) = 9.48 damage

vs Riptide:
- Psilencer x4 (no Psychic Onslaught) = 2.66 damage
- Psycannon x4 (no Psychic Onslaught) = 4.74 damage

- Psilencer x4 (with Psychic Onslaught) = 5.33 damage
- Psycannon x4 (with Psychic Onslaught) = 7.11 damage

vs T8 Sv3+
- Psilencer x4 (no Psychic Onslaught) = 5.33 damage
- Psycannon x4 (no Psychic Onslaught) = 5.33 damage

- Psilencer x4 (with Psychic Onslaught) = 8 damage
- Psycannon x4 (with Psychic Onslaught) = 9.48 damage

vs Landraider:
- Psilencer x4 (no Psychic Onslaught) = 2.667 damage
- Psycannon x4 (no Psychic Onslaught) = 3.556 damage

- Psilencer x4 (with Psychic Onslaught) = 5.33 damage
- Psycannon x4 (with Psychic Onslaught) = 7.11 damage

Conclusion: 4 Psycannons are consistently punching through heavy armour harder than 4 Psilencers.

That's with Tide of Convergence I assume. What would the numbers be without it?

8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2020/01/28 11:36:02

Post by: AlmightyWalrus

Spartacus wrote:

Spoiler:

Waking Dreamer wrote:
stormcraft wrote:
Psycannons are not better than Psilencers, not even against knights.

https://www.mathhammer8thed.com/web/

Punch in the Numbers for a purgation squad, 16 vs 24 shots, they do exaclty the same number of wounds against knights, without buffs or with convergence.

And Psilencers are cheaper, case closed imho.

What numbers are you putting in exactly? Based on that very website there are clear differences across the main heavy armour vehicles:

vs Stormraven:
- Psilencer x4 (no Psychic Onslaught) = 5.33 damage
- Psycannon x4 (no Psychic Onslaught) = 7.11 damage

- Psilencer x4 (with Psychic Onslaught) = 8 damage
- Psycannon x4 (with Psychic Onslaught) = 9.48 damage

vs Riptide:
- Psilencer x4 (no Psychic Onslaught) = 2.66 damage
- Psycannon x4 (no Psychic Onslaught) = 4.74 damage

- Psilencer x4 (with Psychic Onslaught) = 5.33 damage
- Psycannon x4 (with Psychic Onslaught) = 7.11 damage

vs T8 Sv3+
- Psilencer x4 (no Psychic Onslaught) = 5.33 damage
- Psycannon x4 (no Psychic Onslaught) = 5.33 damage

- Psilencer x4 (with Psychic Onslaught) = 8 damage
- Psycannon x4 (with Psychic Onslaught) = 9.48 damage

vs Landraider:
- Psilencer x4 (no Psychic Onslaught) = 2.667 damage
- Psycannon x4 (no Psychic Onslaught) = 3.556 damage

- Psilencer x4 (with Psychic Onslaught) = 5.33 damage
- Psycannon x4 (with Psychic Onslaught) = 7.11 damage

Conclusion: 4 Psycannons are consistently punching through heavy armour harder than 4 Psilencers.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Am I missing something here or did GKs not get any new warlord traits?

They didn't, instead they got 6 new GK psychic powers and 6 new GK litanies.

It looks like in your previous posts you said you'd rather have 4 psycannons shooting at a knight than psilencers, even when not affected by the stratagem. By your own numbers it appears they are indeed the same dmg output in that scenario, so I imagine he's referring to that.

I'm not that impressed by the damage potential of either honestly, it still falls well short of what is considered 'efficient anti-tank' by recent standards, even after you pump so much resource into it, while having only 24 inch range. And to have to sacrifice the power of the Shadow and Escalation tides in order to do so just seems like a waste. MW spam appears to work well based on initial playtesting I've read about here and elsewhere

But you can have both tides every other turn. Fire off smites, switch to Convergence, fire psyweapons, switch back to Escalation next turn before smiting. There's little to no reason to just stay in one tide all game.

8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2020/01/28 11:57:34

Post by: wuestenfux

Spoiler:

This contribution is a first step.

How would a perfect use of traits, psychic powers, litanies and stratagems look like in the first two/three rounds?

8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2020/01/28 12:41:06

Post by: stormcraft

I took the number without Psychic Onslaught, because its just not worth it for 2 CP in no scenario.

The referenced target in the discussion was against Knights, with and without PSI Tide and as your numbers show they are identical.

Sure, against 2+ Saves Psycannons are marginally better, but not enough to be worth it imho. You may rerun your numbers with bs 4+, its even closer then, and thats what you will hit on most of the time.

And yes, points matter, try listbuilding on 1250 or 1500. 20 Points difference can make or break a list on that level, its fitting in an important character or not

8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2020/01/28 13:01:01

Post by: Lanlaorn

Spartacus wrote:

Spoiler:

Waking Dreamer wrote:
stormcraft wrote:
Psycannons are not better than Psilencers, not even against knights.

https://www.mathhammer8thed.com/web/

Punch in the Numbers for a purgation squad, 16 vs 24 shots, they do exaclty the same number of wounds against knights, without buffs or with convergence.

And Psilencers are cheaper, case closed imho.

What numbers are you putting in exactly? Based on that very website there are clear differences across the main heavy armour vehicles:

vs Stormraven:
- Psilencer x4 (no Psychic Onslaught) = 5.33 damage
- Psycannon x4 (no Psychic Onslaught) = 7.11 damage

- Psilencer x4 (with Psychic Onslaught) = 8 damage
- Psycannon x4 (with Psychic Onslaught) = 9.48 damage

vs Riptide:
- Psilencer x4 (no Psychic Onslaught) = 2.66 damage
- Psycannon x4 (no Psychic Onslaught) = 4.74 damage

- Psilencer x4 (with Psychic Onslaught) = 5.33 damage
- Psycannon x4 (with Psychic Onslaught) = 7.11 damage

vs T8 Sv3+
- Psilencer x4 (no Psychic Onslaught) = 5.33 damage
- Psycannon x4 (no Psychic Onslaught) = 5.33 damage

- Psilencer x4 (with Psychic Onslaught) = 8 damage
- Psycannon x4 (with Psychic Onslaught) = 9.48 damage

vs Landraider:
- Psilencer x4 (no Psychic Onslaught) = 2.667 damage
- Psycannon x4 (no Psychic Onslaught) = 3.556 damage

- Psilencer x4 (with Psychic Onslaught) = 5.33 damage
- Psycannon x4 (with Psychic Onslaught) = 7.11 damage

Conclusion: 4 Psycannons are consistently punching through heavy armour harder than 4 Psilencers.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Am I missing something here or did GKs not get any new warlord traits?

They didn't, instead they got 6 new GK psychic powers and 6 new GK litanies.

It looks like in your previous posts you said you'd rather have 4 psycannons shooting at a knight than psilencers, even when not affected by the stratagem. By your own numbers it appears they are indeed the same dmg output in that scenario, so I imagine he's referring to that.

I'm not that impressed by the damage potential of either honestly, it still falls well short of what is considered 'efficient anti-tank' by recent standards, even after you pump so much resource into it, while having only 24 inch range. And to have to sacrifice the power of the Shadow and Escalation tides in order to do so just seems like a waste. MW spam appears to work well based on initial playtesting I've read about here and elsewhere

No one is pretending GK actually became a good army lol, just better than before, into a "have fun with your pals" range.

8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2020/01/28 13:42:49

Post by: wuestenfux

Lanlaorn wrote:
Spartacus wrote:

Spoiler:

Waking Dreamer wrote:
stormcraft wrote:
Psycannons are not better than Psilencers, not even against knights.

https://www.mathhammer8thed.com/web/

Punch in the Numbers for a purgation squad, 16 vs 24 shots, they do exaclty the same number of wounds against knights, without buffs or with convergence.

And Psilencers are cheaper, case closed imho.

What numbers are you putting in exactly? Based on that very website there are clear differences across the main heavy armour vehicles:

vs Stormraven:
- Psilencer x4 (no Psychic Onslaught) = 5.33 damage
- Psycannon x4 (no Psychic Onslaught) = 7.11 damage

- Psilencer x4 (with Psychic Onslaught) = 8 damage
- Psycannon x4 (with Psychic Onslaught) = 9.48 damage

vs Riptide:
- Psilencer x4 (no Psychic Onslaught) = 2.66 damage
- Psycannon x4 (no Psychic Onslaught) = 4.74 damage

- Psilencer x4 (with Psychic Onslaught) = 5.33 damage
- Psycannon x4 (with Psychic Onslaught) = 7.11 damage

vs T8 Sv3+
- Psilencer x4 (no Psychic Onslaught) = 5.33 damage
- Psycannon x4 (no Psychic Onslaught) = 5.33 damage

- Psilencer x4 (with Psychic Onslaught) = 8 damage
- Psycannon x4 (with Psychic Onslaught) = 9.48 damage

vs Landraider:
- Psilencer x4 (no Psychic Onslaught) = 2.667 damage
- Psycannon x4 (no Psychic Onslaught) = 3.556 damage

- Psilencer x4 (with Psychic Onslaught) = 5.33 damage
- Psycannon x4 (with Psychic Onslaught) = 7.11 damage

Conclusion: 4 Psycannons are consistently punching through heavy armour harder than 4 Psilencers.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Am I missing something here or did GKs not get any new warlord traits?

They didn't, instead they got 6 new GK psychic powers and 6 new GK litanies.

It looks like in your previous posts you said you'd rather have 4 psycannons shooting at a knight than psilencers, even when not affected by the stratagem. By your own numbers it appears they are indeed the same dmg output in that scenario, so I imagine he's referring to that.

I'm not that impressed by the damage potential of either honestly, it still falls well short of what is considered 'efficient anti-tank' by recent standards, even after you pump so much resource into it, while having only 24 inch range. And to have to sacrifice the power of the Shadow and Escalation tides in order to do so just seems like a waste. MW spam appears to work well based on initial playtesting I've read about here and elsewhere

No one is pretending GK actually became a good army lol, just better than before, into a "have fun with your pals" range.

''Pals'' - you actually mean Paladins since they can be beefed up by several means.

8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2020/01/28 13:44:13

Post by: Orodhen

I wonder if the numbers change when used on a target in conjunction with Bring Down the Beast.

8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2020/01/28 13:49:57

Post by: FFridge

In a perfect World my example is actually pretty much suboptional because you would start with smites to soften the chaff and probably shunt in a interceptor squad first before you switch the tide to convergence and open with the paladins on the real target.

that means smite tide -> smite 2 MW with draigo / paladins / interceptors / chaplain and whatever you have nearby
switch to convergence and open fire

im planning to take 2 squads of interceptors on top of paladin just for the potential 80 shots to clear chaff before the paladins with draigo / voldus can step in

that has massive first strike potential, i still need to simulate how to do this best because the chaplain cannot cast his invocation of focus coming out of deepstrike. he might need to use it on a interceptor squad while being on the board and then get ported to the paladins with gate of infinity by a nearby strike squad in preparation for next turn.

8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2020/01/28 14:05:51

Post by: AlmightyWalrus

Couldn't you just have 10-man Strike Squads for chaff clearing from the back field? With Invocation of Projection you'd have a 30" range on your Storm Bolters and they're Troops, unlike the Interceptors.

8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2020/01/28 15:40:00

Post by: Slayer-Fan123

Lanlaorn wrote:
We're not playing Imperial Guard here, where the most points efficient damage reigns supreme because we can take as much of it as we want and the efficiency in quantity will win out.

A Grey Knight army will only have so many slots for psycannons or psilencers and with such a small absolute difference in point costs which is the better weapon, not better weapon per point cost, is absolutely a valid concern.

How many of these weapons are you realistically taking, how many points will you save and what will you spend those points on?

and those saved points go a long way for the pure army. Seriously. We already know neither one is good for shooting tanks, and they have the same shorter range. Those saved points, though, go into your Dreads and Fliers being able to take better weapons against tanks and monsters too.

8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2020/01/28 15:40:38

Post by: wuestenfux

SpikeyBits shows two new combos for GK.
https://spikeybits.com/2020/01/top-40k-grey-knights-combos-to-watch-out-for-now.html

First, they suggest to use flyers with the tide of shadows. Not convincing if you ask.

Second, they propose to use Paladins accompanied by a Chaplain as speed bumps.
We all know now that Paladins got an edge. But putting all eggs in one basket is risky.

8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2020/01/28 16:10:27

Post by: greyknight12

I have created a new tactica thread in light of the significant changes to the army: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/784891.page

Feel free to port over any relevant content from this thread (math, batreps, etc).

8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2020/01/28 16:53:43

Post by: MiguelFelstone

greyknight12 wrote:
I have created a new tactica thread in light of the significant changes to the army: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/784891.page

Feel free to port over any relevant content from this thread (math, batreps, etc).

THANK YOU

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