Switch Theme:

Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit  [RSS] 

8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/07 18:24:38


Post by: zinch


While I was hopping a higher decrease in GKT and SS, the point drops in other units are huge: 30 points for a grand master, 20 for the GMNDK, point drops in all our weapons, etc.

I just recalculated my last 1500 list and I'd save 124 points (it would be more if I used more special weapons). It's not that bad


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/07 18:45:14


Post by: FFridge


zinch wrote:
While I was hopping a higher decrease in GKT and SS, the point drops in other units are huge: 30 points for a grand master, 20 for the GMNDK, point drops in all our weapons, etc.

I just recalculated my last 1500 list and I'd save 124 points (it would be more if I used more special weapons). It's not that bad



And then you compare it to the changes the other Codexes got and then you notice that your measly 124 point change is a bad joke and so is GWs "The Grey Knights are the big winners"


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/07 18:46:35


Post by: greyknight12


https://m.imgur.com/gallery/d8Ae4TN

GK leaks for those not following the rumor thread

Of note: it looks like purifiers cost the same as strikes now, which is odd.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/07 19:20:38


Post by: psipso




Maybe is kinda a stupid thing, but i like the fact that servo-arm is now 0. This makes a small unit of chaff servitor and techmarines much more viable. Just thinking in a cheap vanguard with ven dread, a techmarine and 2 vanilla servitor units for screening for +1CP plus some back field objective control.

Dunno if it's worthy


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/07 20:25:05


Post by: Danarc


saving 124 points (in my army list 95) isn't a huge drop. You can insert other 5 PAGK or purifiers and I can insert an ancient.

This allow us play balanced matches?

This sounds like a mockery for me. feth you GW.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/07 20:57:32


Post by: Nairul


Our Brotherhood Ancient (w/ Banner Relic) + Brother-Captain combo might be points efficient now for a 12" D6 MW Smite on the deep strike.

Previously cost ~280-290 points to pull off. After CA would cost ~200 points. Not too shabby.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/07 21:50:42


Post by: psipso


Nairul wrote:
Our Brotherhood Ancient (w/ Banner Relic) + Brother-Captain combo might be points efficient now for a 12" D6 MW Smite on the deep strike.

Previously cost ~280-290 points to pull off. After CA would cost ~200 points. Not too shabby.


now you can just add 40 points for 2 units of 4 servitors to have a vanguard for +1 CP and 8 expendable models to hold 2 objectives or screen. I can only recall dialogus and acolytes as a cheaper elite slot.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/07 22:47:30


Post by: Smotejob


Audustum wrote:
Yeah, terminators are 39 without wargear now, which is a drop, but Space Marine terminators went down to, like, 23. So we pay about 16 points for the privilege of being Psykers.
(Oh and we get worse leadership cause GW says we're not veterans)


But do they still need to pay for their wargear too? They come stock with a stormbolter (+2) and a powerfist (+9) ... So 34 pts vs our 41? Yeah, they better trick out our psyhic phase then cause power fist > force sword. Else I call bs.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/08 03:06:32


Post by: Quickjager


...I honestly think the best list for "GK" is...

GK Battalion

Draigo
BroChamp - First to the Fray

Strike - 10 man
Strike - 5 man
Strike - 5 man

GM Supreme Cheese Taco

GMDK - Psy and Psi
GMDK - Psy and Psi
GMDK - Psy and Psi

For a total of 1354 so far letting us use the rest (646) for the real stars THE ASTRA MILITARUM. In order to get the taco to your liking please decrease the amount of GK in your list till winning.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/08 04:37:33


Post by: greyknight12


Points change summary from the rumors thread (hat tip):
Spoiler:
 Danarc wrote:

Apothecary - 75 (Was 90 = -15p)
BroCap - 110 (Was 150 = -40p)
BroAnc - 90 (Was 128 = -38p)
BroChamp - 90 (Was 113 = -23p)
Chappy - 105 (Was 144 = -39p)
Dread - 65 (Was 87 = -22p)
GM - 130 (Was 160 = -30p)
GMNDK - 170 (Was 190 = -20p)
Interceptors - 21 (Was 23 = -2p)
LR - 200 (Was 239 = -39p)
LRC - 200 (Was 244 = -44p)
LRR - 180 (Was 244 = -64)
Libby - 113 (Was 157 = -44p)
PallyAnc - 98 (Was 140 = -42p)
Pallies - 47 (Was 53 = --6p)
Puries - 19 (Was 26 = -7p)
Razor - 70 (Was 70 = carried over)
Servitors - 5 (Was 2 = +3p) ?
SR - 192 (Was 192 = carried over)
TechMarine - 55 (Was 91 = -44p) [Even cheaper still, servo arms dropped from 12 > 0 and plasma cutters from 7 > 5]
Termies - 39 (Was 41 = -2p)
VenDread - 85 (Was 110 = -25p)

Stern - 105 (Was 157 = -52p)
Crowe - 80 (Was 125 = -45p)
Voldus - 153 (Was 190 = -37p)
Draigo - 180 (Was 240 = -60p)

Hurricane Bolters - 10 (Was 20 = -10p)
H. Incinerator - 19 (Was 40 = -21p)
H. Psycannon - 24 (Was 30 = -6p)
Incinerator - 9 (Was 14 = -5p)
Psycannon - 7 (11 for termies) (Was 14/20 = -7/9p)
Psilencer for Termies - 8 (Was 10 = -2p)
Incinerator for termies - 13 (Was 20 = -7p)
Twinlas - 40 (Was 50 = -10p)
Twin MM - 40 (Was 54 = -14p)
Typhoon - 38 (Was 50 = -12p)
ML - 20 (Was 25 = -5p)
Plasma Cannon - 16 (Was 21 = -5p)
Twin Assault Cannon - 44 (Was 44 = carried over)


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/08 04:40:17


Post by: Quickjager


Oh uh, I already had all the changes on the OP at the bottom. This one is much more extensive though.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/08 06:05:01


Post by: Smotejob


 greyknight12 wrote:
Points change summary from the rumors thread (hat tip):
Spoiler:
 Danarc wrote:

Apothecary - 75 (Was 90 = -15p)
BroCap - 110 (Was 150 = -40p)
BroAnc - 90 (Was 128 = -38p)
BroChamp - 90 (Was 113 = -23p)
Chappy - 105 (Was 144 = -39p)
Dread - 65 (Was 87 = -22p)
GM - 130 (Was 160 = -30p)
GMNDK - 170 (Was 190 = -20p)
Interceptors - 21 (Was 23 = -2p)
LR - 200 (Was 239 = -39p)
LRC - 200 (Was 244 = -44p)
LRR - 180 (Was 244 = -64)
Libby - 113 (Was 157 = -44p)
PallyAnc - 98 (Was 140 = -42p)
Pallies - 47 (Was 53 = --6p)
Puries - 19 (Was 26 = -7p)
Razor - 70 (Was 70 = carried over)
Servitors - 5 (Was 2 = +3p) ?
SR - 192 (Was 192 = carried over)
TechMarine - 55 (Was 91 = -44p) [Even cheaper still, servo arms dropped from 12 > 0 and plasma cutters from 7 > 5]
Termies - 39 (Was 41 = -2p)
VenDread - 85 (Was 110 = -25p)

Stern - 105 (Was 157 = -52p)
Crowe - 80 (Was 125 = -45p)
Voldus - 153 (Was 190 = -37p)
Draigo - 180 (Was 240 = -60p)

Hurricane Bolters - 10 (Was 20 = -10p)
H. Incinerator - 19 (Was 40 = -21p)
H. Psycannon - 24 (Was 30 = -6p)
Incinerator - 9 (Was 14 = -5p)
Psycannon - 7 (11 for termies) (Was 14/20 = -7/9p)
Psilencer for Termies - 8 (Was 10 = -2p)
Incinerator for termies - 13 (Was 20 = -7p)
Twinlas - 40 (Was 50 = -10p)
Twin MM - 40 (Was 54 = -14p)
Typhoon - 38 (Was 50 = -12p)
ML - 20 (Was 25 = -5p)
Plasma Cannon - 16 (Was 21 = -5p)
Twin Assault Cannon - 44 (Was 44 = carried over)


Missing the Twin heavy plasma cannons. 60-> 24pts.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/08 07:40:21


Post by: zinch


 FFridge wrote:
zinch wrote:
While I was hopping a higher decrease in GKT and SS, the point drops in other units are huge: 30 points for a grand master, 20 for the GMNDK, point drops in all our weapons, etc.

I just recalculated my last 1500 list and I'd save 124 points (it would be more if I used more special weapons). It's not that bad



And then you compare it to the changes the other Codexes got and then you notice that your measly 124 point change is a bad joke and so is GWs "The Grey Knights are the big winners"


I'm also upset (Termis costing 10 points more than a SM one is stupid), I was trying to be positive. Luckily, our group is not super competitive..


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/08 12:24:10


Post by: Nithaniel


psipso wrote:


Maybe is kinda a stupid thing, but i like the fact that servo-arm is now 0. This makes a small unit of chaff servitor and techmarines much more viable. Just thinking in a cheap vanguard with ven dread, a techmarine and 2 vanilla servitor units for screening for +1CP plus some back field objective control.

Dunno if it's worthy


There is some merit to this idea. Plus techmarines can heal NDK and GMDK as a nice bonus.

In the general view of ALL the units across the game getting points drops, it doesn't feel like this will balance GK. My previous point about interceptors stands true though.

The GK alpha is a little more viable. Have a GMNDK or draigo deployed with 3 squads of interceptors. Gate Draigo or the GMDK and shunt the interceptors for turn 1 alpha


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/08 13:28:31


Post by: Smotejob


Yes. My competitive list will still be 3x gmndk plus the rest of my imperium stuff.

Still codex dreadknight, grandmaster edition.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/08 13:32:08


Post by: Danarc


According to B&C Only Intercessors and chaos daemons got updated datasheets. So there is 100% nothing new rules for GK.
We are still unplayable.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/08 15:35:30


Post by: Smotejob


 Danarc wrote:
According to B&C Only Intercessors and chaos daemons got updated datasheets. So there is 100% nothing new rules for GK.
We are still unplayable.


I'll amend that, our hq are playable.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/08 16:27:23


Post by: FFridge


 Danarc wrote:
According to B&C Only Intercessors and chaos daemons got updated datasheets. So there is 100% nothing new rules for GK.
We are still unplayable.


thats for vigilus

theres still hope there are some changed datasheets in CA

i wouldnt get my hopes up too much though .. so far Grey Knights are dead on arrival


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/08 17:01:45


Post by: Redemption


No, Vigilus has Calgar, his Vitrix guard and the Raptor Lord. CA has the updated intercessors (for the powerfist) and a few daemons datasheets.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/08 17:13:25


Post by: Smotejob


Wondering if grey knights will get something in the campaign.

Edit

Found a review of the campaign... Looks like nothing from the campaign either. Oh well, our demon hunter elite force will still struggle.



8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/08 17:49:34


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Nobody will still take Terminators when Pals are only 8 points more.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/08 22:53:04


Post by: Smotejob


Everyone begin to email GW FAQ. Like mass email them. I'll be writing a few changes they missed that could be better that would make grey knights much better.

Maybe they will make an update in the FAQ?

Things I will address: discrepancy between SM termie and gk.
Regular dreadknights pricing
The pricing on power armor
The over improtance GW puts on being a psyker.
The discrepancy in pricing between our power armor units




8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/09 04:31:37


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


If you think that's bad, look at the discrepancy between Loyalist Scum and Chaos Terminators.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/09 06:09:44


Post by: Grey Templar


Those changes are rather pathetic.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/09 08:33:04


Post by: Homeskillet


These changes are a slap in the face to GK players. These points changes PLUS full smite would have been near perfect. Changing our Terminators to even 30 points plus full Smite would have been perfectly balanced. GW can suck it.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/09 18:48:53


Post by: Smotejob


Ok. I'm ready to start looking at the positive from CA.

Draigo is cheap enough to fit into lists. He is both a beat stick and provides good aoe buffing. At this new price point he will make a permanent place for himself in lists.

Ancients with banner of refining flame are super easy to fit into lists now.

Brother captains are a nice force multiplier now as well, and are not too costly on the points, and they double as another beat stick. I know the bro cap is considered a poor investment by some, but I get good use.

Put all 3 together and we have a nice trio of force multipliers.

Other units...
My Dreadnoughts will come off the shelf, now clocking in about 131 pts(I think that's right) for rifle dreads, and 125ish for lascannon/missle dreads, they will make good backfield obj holding and fire support. Would have liked to see the twin autocannon come down to 20pts since other armies autocannon is 10pts now. Something to put in my email to gw.

I have a purgation squad still armed with 4 psycannons, so I may use those again. Anyone math hammer the psilencer vs psycannons yet at the new price point?

The tech marine has a really strong point drop. Would like to figure out a way to get one of them on the table. Ideas on how to bring this nice cheap hq choice on to the table? It has decent capability for the cheap points. Also a nice source of cheap smites. Just not sure how to utilize it.



8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/09 18:49:49


Post by: Danarc


 FFridge wrote:
 Danarc wrote:
According to B&C Only Intercessors and chaos daemons got updated datasheets. So there is 100% nothing new rules for GK.
We are still unplayable.


thats for vigilus

theres still hope there are some changed datasheets in CA

i wouldnt get my hopes up too much though .. so far Grey Knights are dead on arrival

Unfortunately, nope. The CA has been spoiled and there is nothing for GK.

But GW changed this:

into this:
Grey Knights, too, have seen some sweeping points reductions to a bunch of core units, including Paladins and Purifiers, as well as the Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight. If you collect Grey Knights, you’ll have loads more flexibility when building your lists and may well find units you previously overlooked to be much more appealing.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/09 19:11:56


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Smotejob wrote:
Ok. I'm ready to start looking at the positive from CA.

Draigo is cheap enough to fit into lists. He is both a beat stick and provides good aoe buffing. At this new price point he will make a permanent place for himself in lists.

Ancients with banner of refining flame are super easy to fit into lists now.

Brother captains are a nice force multiplier now as well, and are not too costly on the points, and they double as another beat stick. I know the bro cap is considered a poor investment by some, but I get good use.

Put all 3 together and we have a nice trio of force multipliers.

Other units...
My Dreadnoughts will come off the shelf, now clocking in about 131 pts(I think that's right) for rifle dreads, and 125ish for lascannon/missle dreads, they will make good backfield obj holding and fire support. Would have liked to see the twin autocannon come down to 20pts since other armies autocannon is 10pts now. Something to put in my email to gw.

I have a purgation squad still armed with 4 psycannons, so I may use those again. Anyone math hammer the psilencer vs psycannons yet at the new price point?

The tech marine has a really strong point drop. Would like to figure out a way to get one of them on the table. Ideas on how to bring this nice cheap hq choice on to the table? It has decent capability for the cheap points. Also a nice source of cheap smites. Just not sure how to utilize it.


Psycannons are likely still going to be lame because they're 7 points for 4 shots instead of just paying an extra point for a total of 12 shots with DD3.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/09 19:15:08


Post by: psipso


 Danarc wrote:
 FFridge wrote:
 Danarc wrote:
According to B&C Only Intercessors and chaos daemons got updated datasheets. So there is 100% nothing new rules for GK.
We are still unplayable.


thats for vigilus

theres still hope there are some changed datasheets in CA

i wouldnt get my hopes up too much though .. so far Grey Knights are dead on arrival

Unfortunately, nope. The CA has been spoiled and there is nothing for GK.

But GW changed this:

into this:
Grey Knights, too, have seen some sweeping points reductions to a bunch of core units, including Paladins and Purifiers, as well as the Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight. If you collect Grey Knights, you’ll have loads more flexibility when building your lists and may well find units you previously overlooked to be much more appealing.



"one massive winner is the Grey Knights"
- Warhammer community
chapter aprove 2018 pre relase


Nowadays people don't know how to appreciate old school proper irony


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/09 19:26:24


Post by: Xenomancers


So - the core build did go down quite a bit. GMNDK got a pretty big drop. Draigo is now auto include and hes quite a beast.

Did we also get real smite - havn't seen anything about that? 80 point crowe is kinda hilarious also - is there any reason not to take him at that price?

Are purifiers worth it now? they require an obligatory storm raven but that also got cheaper.

I guess I'm trying to be optimistic. Is there anything we aren't considering?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/09 19:30:36


Post by: Smotejob


 Xenomancers wrote:
So - the core build did go down quite a bit. GMNDK got a pretty big drop. Draigo is now auto include and hes quite a beast.

Did we also get real smite - havn't seen anything about that? 80 point crowe is kinda hilarious also - is there any reason not to take him at that price?

Are purifiers worth it now? they require an obligatory storm raven but that also got cheaper.

I guess I'm trying to be optimistic. Is there anything we aren't considering?


Gmndk is a little cheaper. No, our smite is the same. Purifiers still suck and are astrike squad with poor smite range, no obsec, and no deep strike for the same price as the strike squad.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/09 19:50:39


Post by: psipso


 Xenomancers wrote:
So - the core build did go down quite a bit. GMNDK got a pretty big drop. Draigo is now auto include and hes quite a beast.

Did we also get real smite - havn't seen anything about that? 80 point crowe is kinda hilarious also - is there any reason not to take him at that price?

Are purifiers worth it now? they require an obligatory storm raven but that also got cheaper.

I guess I'm trying to be optimistic. Is there anything we aren't considering?


Ancient is now 90 points so could it be worthy to take several to give +1 attack across the board or to deep strike 2 along with 10 strikes / terminators / paladins to make more sure that at least one make it to the combat?

Also this bring me another question. Is the bonus cumulative? If there is 3 ancient together between 6 inches of a SS squad is this means that the strike marines get +3 attacks?

Also now a unit of 4 servitors would be 20 points. I guess that now can be considered as our most efficient "screen" unit. Lore wise make sense to have servitors as cannon fooders in a GK army


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/09 20:30:49


Post by: Xenomancers


the wording says if they are in range of "any" banners they get +1 attack that phase. I think that is exclusive.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/09 21:53:44


Post by: Audustum


 Xenomancers wrote:
the wording says if they are in range of "any" banners they get +1 attack that phase. I think that is exclusive.


Also, and this is me half-remembering something the YMDC folk were reciting as gospel, abilities of the same name won't stack.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/10 01:06:49


Post by: Grey Templar


Saying that we are the big winner is a bit like saying someone who leaves Poker night up $2 up is a big winner. It might technically be true, but in the big picture it means nothing.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/10 18:50:51


Post by: Nairul


 Smotejob wrote:

I have a purgation squad still armed with 4 psycannons, so I may use those again. Anyone math hammer the psilencer vs psycannons yet at the new price point?


Hello your mathhammer technician has returned. Now with graphs!

Storm Bolter at 2 points. Psilencer at 4 points, Psycannon at 7 points.

Graph 1
Assume multi-wound targets (e.g. the Psilencer's D3 damage is relevant).
Assume -1 to hit penalty for moving with heavy weapons
Assume 3+ armor save targets (AP still applies)

Spoiler:

Graph 2
Assume single-wound targets (e.g. the Psilencers D3 damage is NOT relevant)
Assume -1 to hit penalty for moving with heavy weapons
Assume 3+ armor save targets (AP still applies)

Spoiler:




TLDR
Against multi-wound targets (Shooting) — Psilencer still best in damage. Psilencer still best in damage-per-points.
Against single-wound targets (Shooting) — Psycannon still best in damage. Psycannon moved from "worst" to "middle" in damage-per-points with latest points decrease. Rapid-Firing Storm Bolter still best in damage-per-points.




8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/11 01:32:08


Post by: Leo_the_Rat


Nairul- Just so you know you're off a decimal place on your Damage per point chart. The half points need to be moved one decimal to the right.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/11 01:56:19


Post by: Smotejob


Those other armies’ points changes help to improve their army internal balance. However, this chapter approved did not really improve internal balance for the grey knights. Games workshop tried (and i commend them for it). So, let us discuss the failures from a GK player perspective.

One of the GK’s major issues is that GW over values the grey knight psyker phase. With only 1 table to go off of (so 6 powers, 2 suck, 3 are good, 1 is usable) to distribute amongst 15ish units (at 2k points). There will be many units not casting table powers and will use their baby smite. That 1 mortal wound is okay but nothing to write home about. It’s more of a nice thing.

The Grandmaster NDK is still king of the codex and it got cheaper. It is now 10 points more than a regular dreadknight (which wasn’t touched). What does the GMNDK get for +10pts? +1 ws, +1 bs, reroll 1s aura, +1 invul, +1 psychic power. This is not good internal balance. Don’t get me wrong, the GMNDK is now priced correctly, but the regular NDK needs a reduction of about 40 pts for good internal balance.

Draigo is at a good price now. All other HQs are rather meh in comparison. Yes they are all better than they used to be, but Draigo and GMNDK are just so good in comparison, you should never take a different HQ. Again, not good internal balance.

Libbys are still not useful because GK are an army of psykers, so having extra powers doesn’t mean much, and will again just be casting baby smite. An argument can be made for brother captains, but you need to build around the brother captain (ie baby smite spam), he doesn’t actually play well with many lists.

Crowe still has the same problems for 30 points less from before CA and suffers the same problem as purifiers, 3” smite range.

Talking about Purifier squads. The GK “veterans” are still terrible and will not be taken because of their rules, not their points. They are the same price as strike squads now, which is better. But that is for a unit that is a strike squad with a worse smite, no deep strike, and no obsec. So they will still never be taken. Not balanced. 3” smite range will never get used, even if it is always 1d6. Upgrade that to 6” and now we will have a unit worth taking, that’s it, that’s how you fix them (also gives synergy and reason to bring a brother Captain) Otherwise, they will remain off the table.

Purgation squads (our devastators) are also strike squads w/o obsec and deep strike for the same price per model. Their benefit? They take 4 heavy 24” guns instead of 1. These guys need to be 2-3 points less than a strike squad. I’ve been experimenting with them for a while and even with the point reductions to the GK heavy weapons, they still won’t be great.

Speaking of strike squads, these are 1A models paying for force weapons, which is wasted because you don’t actually want these guys in combat with their current stat line. They are a good anti-horde-mid-range-shooting unit, and a rather meh close combat unit. They alone will usually kill about 2 guardsmen a turn in CC. If you give them falchions, then you are looking at about 4 guardsmen a turn in cc. Make those any sort of demon, and now we are looking at 1 bloodletter a turn killed in CC (that invul). Also, since the deep strike nerf, they guys are on the struggle bus. It was a good nerf, the game needed it, but the strike squads are still paying for it.

Grey Knight terminators are about 20% more expensive than vanilla marine terminators for a worse model. Vanilla marines come stock w/ a power fist (vs a force sword). A force sword has less damage output than a powerfist (str 4 vs str 8 attacks), albiet power fist has -1 to hit. Yes the gk has psyker (see above). I could see picking up a couple points for obsec, but less points charged for the weaker close combat weapon. So GKT should be 25-27ish points (over the 23 vanilla marine because obsec+psyker) +2 for storm bolter + 5ish for force sword (powerfist is 9 pts). Making our termie about 32-34ish points, not 41 points stock. You would make every grey knight player so happy with 33 point terminators, and they would be internally and externally balanced at that price!

As of CA, Terminators are about double the price of a strike squad with half the damage output and with anti tank weapons back on the rise, only slightly more durable.

Paladins are worse custodies for only a few points less. Custodies have +1 str, +1T, better cc weapon (a combination of GKs force sword and force halberd), +1” move, obsec, +1 invul save, and access to storm shields. GK paladins are only a few more points than GK terminators and fill a similar role. Not exactly good internal or external balance. If the above changes are made to terminators (about 32-34 points) then Paladins should be about the price of what the new GK terminator is (about 40-42 points). After all, paladins are just a terminator with +1W +1A and no obsec.

Some make the argument that the reduction in points that other armies got is to combat imperial knights. Ie, cheaper high-ap multi-wound guns. Those kind of weapons happen to be hard counters the grey knights as well. So those buffs to other armies counter the grey knights. So grey knights are getting indirectly nerfed because imperial knights are too good.

These are the major issues that people have with this codex.
So lets look at how this affects the GK core units. Terminators and paladins got a couple points better, so did plasma. This therefore is a wash. However, strike squads didn’t get reduced thus resulting in a nerf. And those 3 units are the CORE of the grey knights. You cannot Grey knight without either terminators or strike squads unless you are just adding a command detachment to a soup list.

There is the doom and gloom. Well… what improved? The Grey knight ancients, apoc, dreadnoughts, as well as flyers (slightly, more because they are better in vanilla codex).

I may field a dreadnought now with autocannons or with twin las & missile for anti-tank. This helps to offset the grey knight issue of having long range fire power to hold the back field objectives. The medic is a bit cheaper and is a good candidate for one of the relics, making him into a 75 point beat stick that can heal wounds.

Interceptors are now 10pts cheaper per unit of 5. Woo.

A strange change is the massive reduction in a tech marine and servitor pricing. A detachment of a tech marine w/ 3 units of servitors may be a cheap way to field objective holders and gain a command point in the grey knight codex, although the loyal 32 will still do this much better and gain more CP.

With these changes, mono-grey knights should have moved from the bottom of the bottom tier to mid-teir, but will end up somewhere still in the bottom tier. And honestly, just making the suggestions I made here will bring the GK to mid tier without making them OP.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/11 02:07:49


Post by: Audustum


One thing that, I feel, would solve many problems is to give us access to Intercessors. Psyker Intercessors yeah, so they probably should be about 100 even for a unit (rather than 85 for current Intercessors). No Force Weapon means you don't have to bloat their cost further (they have no melee weapon, I guess let the sergeant take a Force Weapon instead of a Power Fist).

Now we get a troop unit for a lower cost that actually has a different role than Strikes/Termies (shoot and hold).


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/11 07:33:54


Post by: Aeri


I always felt GK are made to be accompanied by an IK.
It was what you often saw in 6th and 7th ed.

What do you guys think, considering the point drops we recently received?
How would your list would look like if you were to take a knight?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/11 13:36:20


Post by: Smotejob


I have a tourney list that has a warden and two helvrins running besides my grey knights. It's pretty mean. Most of my losses with it are usually due to user error and not the list.

It's a warden, 2x helvrins

2x gmndk, 3x strikes

Then I build around it from there. I've got a few versions, one fleshes out the grey knights, one brings in guard, another has shields captains on bikes.

I notice one of two things. Either my opponent targets my warden and my gmndk run free, or they Target my gmndk and my warden runs free.

Last time I ran it and did well was fleshed out with razorbacks with assault cannons and interceptors. Might bring that back with some adjustments.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/11 17:30:34


Post by: Nairul


Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Nairul- Just so you know you're off a decimal place on your Damage per point chart. The half points need to be moved one decimal to the right.


Sorry, can you explain further? Not understanding.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/11 18:59:40


Post by: Leo_the_Rat


On your left hand column for DPP you have the numbers 0.35,0.3,0.25, etc.. I would think that you meant 3.5, 3.0, 2.5, etc.. That's what I mean by "decimal shift".


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/11 19:17:29


Post by: Smotejob


This is the email I am sending to GW.

GW FAQ,
There is a lot of good in the grey Knight CA updates, and I know you are already working on the faq. Here is list of things that were over looked/mistakes for grey knights.
-regular dreadknight wasn't reduced in points and is now only 10pts less than gmndk. Gmndk is +1ws, +1bs, +1invul, reroll 1 aura, character, and 1 more power to cast per turn.
-grey knight terminators are worse than space marine terminators but are 7pts more expensive (power fist vs force sword, str 8 v str 4, both 1d3 wounds, -1 ws vs -0ws). gkt with psyker and obsec should be about 26pts, +5 for force sword, +2 for storm bolter. 33 pts total.
- paladins should be about 43 pts, they are terminators with +1a, +1w, -obsec
-strikesquads are okay, but purgation and purifiers should be fixed as they are weaker versions of the strike squad (-obsec, -deepstrike). -3 more points to each. Or for purifiers...
-purifiers are weak because of their smite nerf to 3". Make it 6" (this also fixes the brother captain as they having something to synergize with).
- brother Captain, Chaplin, champion, crowe, Libby are all outshined by voldus, draigo, and gmndk. Give them something special.
-strikesquads still pay for alpha strike even though it was nerfed
-gk need a second psyker table. GK pay for psyker but only have 1 table for 10-15 units (@2,000pt game size)
-twin auto Cannon is still over priced. Other armies pay 10pts per autocannon, so the twin autocannon should be 20pts not 33.
-twin assault cannons should be 30pts. GK were punished because robute gulliman is good.
-psycannon after the pts reduction is still worse than psilencer in most cases. Math hammer it. The psycannon is only better against t4,t5,t6,t7,t8 single wound models with 3+ or 2+ save. And it is only slightly better.
-psychic onslaught and psybolt is still 2cp. Needs to be 1cp.


Good jobs on:
Draigo, gmndk, dreadknight weapons, vehicle weaponals, dreadnoughts, voldus, ancients, medics and interceptors. Those are much better now.

I really appreciate the attention for the grey knights, just a few things more do need fixing.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/11 19:46:26


Post by: zinch


NDK are 40 points less than GMNDK, not 10 (130 vs 170)

For the rest of the email, I agree. I would emphasyze more the need to reduce at least one or two points the Strikes, but I don't think the FAQ would adress these issues...


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/11 19:50:59


Post by: Xenomancers


Worth noting that NDK with just a flamer is pretty effing cheap now.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/11 21:19:17


Post by: Smotejob


zinch wrote:
NDK are 40 points less than GMNDK, not 10 (130 vs 170)

For the rest of the email, I agree. I would emphasyze more the need to reduce at least one or two points the Strikes, but I don't think the FAQ would adress these issues...


I know what I did, I counted the dreadknight with the weapons. Ha


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Worth noting that NDK with just a flamer is pretty effing cheap now.


I've thought about it. But hard to justify the 3.5 hits a turn for the 190ish pts. And they aren't worth a second gun


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/11 22:02:03


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


If you could double up on the Flamer, you'd have a reason to use the regular Dreadknight at least.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/11 23:02:34


Post by: Nairul


Leo_the_Rat wrote:
On your left hand column for DPP you have the numbers 0.35,0.3,0.25, etc.. I would think that you meant 3.5, 3.0, 2.5, etc.. That's what I mean by "decimal shift".


Nope, they're accurate. The calculation is for Damage Per Point (DPP) e.g. how much damage output is each point giving you?

So at each Toughness value I divide the average damage (bottom graph) by the wargear's point cost.

Example:
A 2pt storm bolter, not rapid-firing, is 0.3 average damage vs. T3 @ 3+ save.
2 Attacks > 1.33 Average Hits > 0.89 Average Wounds > 0.3 Average Unsaved Wounds > 0.3 Average Damage

Therefore it has a DPP value of 0.15 vs. T3 @ 3+ save.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/11 23:28:17


Post by: Smotejob


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
If you could double up on the Flamer, you'd have a reason to use the regular Dreadknight at least.


That I would take...


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/11 23:31:11


Post by: Xenomancers


Question about dreads...
So GK have their own dreads but it has the same name as a space marine dread. Can I take 3 of each?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
If you could double up on the Flamer, you'd have a reason to use the regular Dreadknight at least.

We should ask for this change from GW....I see no reason why they can't double up on weapons.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/12 01:37:27


Post by: Quickjager


Because only one comes in a kit would be the answer.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/12 01:57:13


Post by: Neophyte2012


 Xenomancers wrote:
Question about dreads...
So GK have their own dreads but it has the same name as a space marine dread. Can I take 3 of each?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
If you could double up on the Flamer, you'd have a reason to use the regular Dreadknight at least.

We should ask for this change from GW....I see no reason why they can't double up on weapons.


I do think we should be able to take the 3 Dreadnoughts from each codex. Look at the example of Chaos Daemon Princes.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/13 04:16:13


Post by: Smotejob


 Smotejob wrote:
This is the email I am sending to GW.

GW FAQ,
There is a lot of good in the grey Knight CA updates, and I know you are already working on the faq. Here is list of things that were over looked/mistakes for grey knights.
-regular dreadknight wasn't reduced in points and is now only 10pts less than gmndk. Gmndk is +1ws, +1bs, +1invul, reroll 1 aura, character, and 1 more power to cast per turn.
-grey knight terminators are worse than space marine terminators but are 7pts more expensive (power fist vs force sword, str 8 v str 4, both 1d3 wounds, -1 ws vs -0ws). gkt with psyker and obsec should be about 26pts, +5 for force sword, +2 for storm bolter. 33 pts total.
- paladins should be about 43 pts, they are terminators with +1a, +1w, -obsec
-strikesquads are okay, but purgation and purifiers should be fixed as they are weaker versions of the strike squad (-obsec, -deepstrike). -3 more points to each. Or for purifiers...
-purifiers are weak because of their smite nerf to 3". Make it 6" (this also fixes the brother captain as they having something to synergize with).
- brother Captain, Chaplin, champion, crowe, Libby are all outshined by voldus, draigo, and gmndk. Give them something special.
-strikesquads still pay for alpha strike even though it was nerfed
-gk need a second psyker table. GK pay for psyker but only have 1 table for 10-15 units (@2,000pt game size)
-twin auto Cannon is still over priced. Other armies pay 10pts per autocannon, so the twin autocannon should be 20pts not 33.
-twin assault cannons should be 30pts. GK were punished because robute gulliman is good.
-psycannon after the pts reduction is still worse than psilencer in most cases. Math hammer it. The psycannon is only better against t4,t5,t6,t7,t8 single wound models with 3+ or 2+ save. And it is only slightly better.
-psychic onslaught and psybolt is still 2cp. Needs to be 1cp.


Good jobs on:
Draigo, gmndk, dreadknight weapons, vehicle weaponals, dreadnoughts, voldus, ancients, medics and interceptors. Those are much better now.

I really appreciate the attention for the grey knights, just a few things more do need fixing.


I would like to amend this email. Terminators who take a heavy weapon pay 4 more points than power armor. Therefore the force weapon is 4 pts.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/13 21:55:55


Post by: zer0runner


[b]
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
If you could double up on the Flamer, you'd have a reason to use the regular Dreadknight at least.


Nuts... I thought we could double up on the weapons. I must have missed something (normal for me).


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/14 02:21:15


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


zer0runner wrote:
[b]
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
If you could double up on the Flamer, you'd have a reason to use the regular Dreadknight at least.


Nuts... I thought we could double up on the weapons. I must have missed something (normal for me).

If that were the case, everyone's 7th edition Dreadknight would be double Psycannon or Incinerator instead of one-of-each (which looks bad and terribly silly).


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/14 03:59:27


Post by: Smotejob


So, is there a worse terminator now than the grey Knight terminator? Do we have the worst version now?

On another note, been trying other gk models out. My findings? I'm only taking gmndk now.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/14 19:24:27


Post by: Xenomancers


 Quickjager wrote:
Because only one comes in a kit would be the answer.

Well...I hate to be that guy but a tau commander comes with one of each weapon but has the rules to take 4 of each weapon....I can think of a lot of examples where units have the rules but not the gear option.

Venerable dreads for example don't even come with a rocket launcher in their kit...but they can still take rockets.

I really think this is something we as a community should get behind. Give our dreadknights double options.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/14 22:40:31


Post by: zer0runner


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
zer0runner wrote:
[b]
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
If you could double up on the Flamer, you'd have a reason to use the regular Dreadknight at least.


Nuts... I thought we could double up on the weapons. I must have missed something (normal for me).

If that were the case, everyone's 7th edition Dreadknight would be double Psycannon or Incinerator instead of one-of-each (which looks bad and terribly silly).

I gotta stop reading when i'm tired.....

Yeah, the codex ssys two DIFFERENT. Figures.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/14 22:43:19


Post by: Drinkgasoline


A few thoughts (and reasons for optimism):

I play a lot of regular 40k tournaments here in the UK and recently came 2nd at Caledonian Uprising (100 players) and 2nd at Glasshammer Open (80 players). I just say this so that my ideas aren't dismissed as nonsense as I appreciate I have never posted on this thread before.

- I played GKs for the start of 8th and love the army, unfortunately since new books came out, soup changes and deepstrike changes, GKs turned non-viable
- With the release of CA, yes GKs didn't get the fixes we desperately needed (full smite, 85pt strike squads, DKs ignoring to-hit penalties) but there are a few positives
- I think you need to utilise the units that did see points drops whilst retaining viability - NDKGMs, interceptors, dreadnoughts, venerables, characters, techs
- Yes GKs are still a soup army if they want to remain viable in a tournament setting
- Combining a number of sources that had points decreases with the units that had drops in GKs, you can actually tally up quite a decent chunk of "free" post-CA points (my list gained 177pts of free stuff)

Now, having said that, onto the competitive talk:

- We need to utilise, as a soup army, things that synergise
- We also need to "abuse" the strategies that are the most "broken" in the GK source: namely 2++ NDKGMs (this does work as confirmed by GW judges at Warhammer world - the save is still capped at 3++ but "adding +1" to saves does not alter the "save" itself and therefore your NDKGM has a 2++)
- Also our cheap 1CP "soulburst" when NDKGMs die
- Gate of infinity
- Ignore LOS: where in competitive play, LOS block is becoming a massive, massive factor and the ability to send 18 NDKGM shots at a unit of hiding reapers, spears, aggressors or whatever, is HUGE

So, taking into account all these points, and looking across all the deductions and changes in CA, I came up with a list, and after 5 test games so far it looks like this:

Grey Knights Battalion
NDKGM w/ Gatling & Heavy Psycannon, Sword, Teleport
NDKGM w/ Gatling & Heavy Psycannon, Sword, Teleport
4 Strikes w/ Falchions, Psilencer
4 Strikes w/ Falchions, Psilencer
4 Strikes w/ Falchions, Psilencer
Dreadnought w/ Plasma Cannon, Missile Launcher
Dreadnought w/ Plasma Cannon, Missile Launcher

AdMech Battalion Graia
Techpriest Enginseer
Techpriest Enginseer
5 Skitarii Rangers
5 Skitarii Rangers
5 Skitarii Rangers

House Krast Super Heavy Detachment
Knight Crusader w/ Thermal Cannon, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Ironstorm Missiles, Heavy Stubber
Warglaive
Warglaive


So this list has gained 177pts of extra stuff since CA (basically affording a second NDKGM).

So the basic tactic is this. Deploy one NDKGM (with sanctuary) and a strike squad (with gate). Both the dreads have astral aim. The Crusader takes ion bulwark for 3++ with rotate ion shields and the Krast relic giving +1 damage against vehicles and +2 against super heavies.

You use heed the prog on the NDKGM then cast sanctuary and astral aim on him then gate him over within range of the opponent's juicy targets. He pumps his guns and kills something important that is out of LOS. The crusader murders vehicles fairly easily and the underrated warglaives apply pressure with their 44-50" thermal spear threat range.

First turn the opponent therefore has to deal with a NDKGM with a 2++ save and when they DO finally kill him, he can shoot back or fight in combat. The dreads add some great cheap backfield shooting at only 101pts a pop are incredible value for money. They also have to deal with a 3++ Krast Crusader who, if he doesn't die, can shoot again at full BS thanks to the strat. He is also a beast in combat with exploding 6s and re-rolling all hits, as are the Warglaives.

So far I played against talos/ravager spam Drukhari twice, AM with castellan once and double spear ynnari twice and managed to win 4 games, losing one. Having said that, I went first 3/4 games that I won which is huge as it gives you a 2++ NDKGM turn one. I do feel that this list has potential despite all the drawbacks of CA and other gains that other armies have made. However we can still abuse what gains we did make with the NDKGMs, the dreadnoughts, the little tricks our codex still possesses, the new cheapness of AdMech and the strong backfield Imperial Knights provide.

I forgot to say, the enginseers repair the dreads and Knight (up to 2 wounds per turn) and are awesome. Taking Graia on the detachment allows you to deny powers within 24' which is a great bonus and a 6+ FNP.

Now, I appreciate that many players here aren't interested in competitive 40k whatsoever or tournaments and I appreciate that and apologise for the lengthy post. However, there are not many places where one can discuss GK tactics with others so I have ended up here


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/14 23:48:16


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Honestly if you don't want to do much investing in your Battalion you might as well go Infantry. I know you probably don't want to hear that.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/15 00:00:13


Post by: psipso


 Drinkgasoline wrote:


A few thoughts (and reasons for optimism):



yay! optimism is what we need we are the last defence against the daemons menace and looks like things are not looking grate for the mankind after CA

 Drinkgasoline wrote:


- We need to utilise, as a soup army, things that synergise



Besides of CP farm in your opinion which other things synergise well with GK ?

 Drinkgasoline wrote:


- Ignore LOS: where in competitive play, LOS block is becoming a massive, massive factor and the ability to send 18 NDKGM shots at a unit of hiding reapers, spears, aggressors or whatever, is HUGE



I guess that another option would be if you have a stormraven another option would be to make the NDKGM has astral aim and the SS cast on him sanctuary and GI. Then move the stormraven where the NDKGM is and cast astral aim to the stormraven meanwhile giving re-rolls of 1. If the storm raven is in rapid fire range it could potentially have more firepower than the NDKGM. Then next turn they will have to deal with a stormraven and a 2++ NDKGM. Also the stormraven can be use to block possible counter charge from knights or other non flyers units.

But what do I know. I could probably be wrong and misleading you. But in the other hand there is not a lot of us, GK players, left out there to discuss about GK tactics anyway.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/15 00:51:26


Post by: Drinkgasoline


Yeah that's a nice point and Stormravens got a nice drop in points. They are also more viable going second thanks to prepared positions BUT at 300+ points I think they're still a little too pricy.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/15 05:07:43


Post by: Nairul


 Drinkgasoline wrote:


Now, I appreciate that many players here aren't interested in competitive 40k whatsoever or tournaments and I appreciate that and apologise for the lengthy post. However, there are not many places where one can discuss GK tactics with others so I have ended up here


Thanks. I actually found your post very insightful.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/15 06:29:12


Post by: Postulent


 Drinkgasoline wrote:
A few thoughts (and reasons for optimism):...
/quote]

Thank you, these kind of posts are what tactics threads should be filled with, I now have much more clear idea about how to make gk work, and how ca affected them.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/15 09:59:25


Post by: Drinkgasoline


Other potential synergistic detachments are those which provide a strong backfield or got points drops in CA.

So I would consider AM battalions with Tank Commanders and Mortars or the new Sisters with lots of Transport Vehicles.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/15 22:13:59


Post by: BillyN831


I apologize this early question but what are the best Grey Knights units now?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/15 22:30:42


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


BillyN831 wrote:
I apologize this early question but what are the best Grey Knights units now?

Still the same, but Paladins got cheaper I think so they're more attractive at least.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/16 00:54:58


Post by: Drinkgasoline


BillyN831 wrote:
I apologize this early question but what are the best Grey Knights units now?




NDKGM
Interceptors
Dreadnoughts
Venerable Dreadnoughts


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/16 01:44:11


Post by: Audustum


 Drinkgasoline wrote:
BillyN831 wrote:
I apologize this early question but what are the best Grey Knights units now?




NDKGM
Interceptors
Dreadnoughts
Venerable Dreadnoughts


All dreadnoughts for everyone kind of suck, unfortunately (except for CSM Leviathans with Butcher Cannons).

I'd say for GK it's:

Draigo
GMDK
Strikes

Just spam both as much as you can if going GK. If you want to do really good though, replace your GK with Custodes.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/16 05:02:54


Post by: Smotejob


Was actually going to try something similar, but with guard.

Gk
2x gmndk, sword, Cannon, psilencer
3x strike squad

Imperial knight krast
Crusader - thermal Cannon, headsmen mark, bulwark
2x warglaive

Guard - cadian
Tank commanders - plasma executioner, plasma cannons
Company cmdr

3x troops with lascannon teams.

Has a bit more heavy firepower in the tank commander, typically firing 11 plasma and 3 heavy bolter, more than the two dreadnoughts, but I lose the skitarii synergy with the knights.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Drinkgasoline wrote:
BillyN831 wrote:
I apologize this early question but what are the best Grey Knights units now?




NDKGM
Interceptors
Dreadnoughts
Venerable Dreadnoughts


Dreadnoughts are better now... But so much more out there still does more damage output in shooting for points. I would answer, what is good? GMNDK, and in limited quantity since they have diminishing returns past the first one. 2 could be okay.

strike squad/interceptors are good at clearing horde units, but again... So much other stuff does that role better.

At least interceptors can hunt backline units.

Draigo and voldus have their places too.



8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/16 08:48:03


Post by: Drinkgasoline


Audustum wrote:
 Drinkgasoline wrote:
BillyN831 wrote:
I apologize this early question but what are the best Grey Knights units now?




NDKGM
Interceptors
Dreadnoughts
Venerable Dreadnoughts


All dreadnoughts for everyone kind of suck, unfortunately (except for CSM Leviathans with Butcher Cannons).

I'd say for GK it's:

Draigo
GMDK
Strikes

Just spam both as much as you can if going GK. If you want to do really good though, replace your GK with Custodes.


At 101pts they're dead cheap now though and worth it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Smotejob wrote:
Was actually going to try something similar, but with guard.

Gk
2x gmndk, sword, Cannon, psilencer
3x strike squad

Imperial knight krast
Crusader - thermal Cannon, headsmen mark, bulwark
2x warglaive

Guard - cadian
Tank commanders - plasma executioner, plasma cannons
Company cmdr

3x troops with lascannon teams.

Has a bit more heavy firepower in the tank commander, typically firing 11 plasma and 3 heavy bolter, more than the two dreadnoughts, but I lose the skitarii synergy with the knights.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Drinkgasoline wrote:
BillyN831 wrote:
I apologize this early question but what are the best Grey Knights units now?




NDKGM
Interceptors
Dreadnoughts
Venerable Dreadnoughts


Dreadnoughts are better now... But so much more out there still does more damage output in shooting for points. I would answer, what is good? GMNDK, and in limited quantity since they have diminishing returns past the first one. 2 could be okay.

strike squad/interceptors are good at clearing horde units, but again... So much other stuff does that role better.

At least interceptors can hunt backline units.

Draigo and voldus have their places too.



Yeah this is a good build, let us know how you get on. Tank commanders are still great and got a points drop so great tool to utilise.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/16 09:01:25


Post by: psipso


 Drinkgasoline wrote:
Other potential synergistic detachments are those which provide a strong backfield or got points drops in CA.

So I would consider AM battalions with Tank Commanders and Mortars or the new Sisters with lots of Transport Vehicles.


Then I still see the strike marines as a waste of points. They are more a point fillers for CP. so the warglaives are. If I see it in terms of efficiency probably I would o for an AM brigade, a IK super heavy auxiliary and a GK supreme commander:

Company commander x2
Tank Commander
Infantry Squad x6
Scout sentinels x3
Mortar teams x3

Crusader

NDKGM
NDKGM
Draigo
Ven dread LC ML

And the ven dread would be place here not only for the astral aim but mostly to make the supreme command detachment the expensive and hence tag the army as GK. Also from the AM centric point of view it could be desirable have GK as they provide one of the best psychic defence (aegis strat and +1 to Denny the witch) and is not to waste points in a unit that only works against psyckers (e.g. culexus). NDKGM are also heavy hitters.

In this case you can deploy Draigo and NDKGM. Draigo with AIM and GI and the NDKGM with sanctuary or something like that.

But reach that point I realise that actually the soup composition for GK haven't changed at all from pre CA. Maybe now is more point wise efficient. Maybe my vision is too narrow?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
just forget 3 commissars for the AM brigade elite.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/16 10:10:19


Post by: Drinkgasoline


psipso wrote:
 Drinkgasoline wrote:
Other potential synergistic detachments are those which provide a strong backfield or got points drops in CA.

So I would consider AM battalions with Tank Commanders and Mortars or the new Sisters with lots of Transport Vehicles.


Then I still see the strike marines as a waste of points. They are more a point fillers for CP. so the warglaives are. If I see it in terms of efficiency probably I would o for an AM brigade, a IK super heavy auxiliary and a GK supreme commander:

Company commander x2
Tank Commander
Infantry Squad x6
Scout sentinels x3
Mortar teams x3

Crusader

NDKGM
NDKGM
Draigo
Ven dread LC ML

And the ven dread would be place here not only for the astral aim but mostly to make the supreme command detachment the expensive and hence tag the army as GK. Also from the AM centric point of view it could be desirable have GK as they provide one of the best psychic defence (aegis strat and +1 to Denny the witch) and is not to waste points in a unit that only works against psyckers (e.g. culexus). NDKGM are also heavy hitters.

In this case you can deploy Draigo and NDKGM. Draigo with AIM and GI and the NDKGM with sanctuary or something like that.

But reach that point I realise that actually the soup composition for GK haven't changed at all from pre CA. Maybe now is more point wise efficient. Maybe my vision is too narrow?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
just forget 3 commissars for the AM brigade elite.


Unfortunately mate you're sort of correct about the strikes... they're alright with 20 shots but for the points they suck. But they do give the extra CP, powers and turn two chaff clearance.

I would say from my experience the warglaives aren't point fillers. 162pts for what they add plus an extra CP for each one is decent. They're incredibly fast and provide threat overload especially when the opponent has a 2++ NDKGM in their face.

I do think your argument is slightly flawed as you present an AM brigade list where pretty much 25% of the army is filler (also not sure whether your list actually fits into 2k - I may be wrong).

Draigo has no purpose in that list. What does he add? A 180pt brick that isn't active until turn 3 even. This won't be a popular comment in this thread but Draigo at 180pts still isn't great unless you're taking 30+ marine bodies deepstriking and even then I would consider leaving him out. He doesn't add any offense until he's in combat which simply won't happen since your delivery puts him 9" from chaff turn two.

You want to be getting efficiency out of each unit if possible, or you want it to be dirt cheap. In my list I would agree with you the main flaw is the 3 overpriced strike squads but they still add 60 shots which in the age of Orks isn't terrible.

Having said all that I think an AM brigade + GKs can work... I would consider running a Catachan brigade with priests and Straken and your list is a good start but I wouldn't use Draigo. Maybe take a cheap techmarine...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, I ran this version of the list yesterday and I'm liking it more than my previous iteration:

GK Battalion
NDKGM
NDKGM
Strikes - Psilencer
Strikes - Psilencer
Strikes - Psilencer
Ven Dread - LC, ML

AdMech Battalion
Techpriest
Techpriest
Rangers
Rangers
Rangers

Krast SH
Crusader - Battle Cannon, Stormspear
Warglaive
Warglaive


I liked the single Ven Dread with the astral aim and re-rolling 1s to hit whilst sitting behind a ruin. You guys were right about the plasma cannons they're cheap now but damage output is minimal.

I went first AGAIN against Knights/AM/Custodes and baited a rotate ion shields on his gallant allowing the crusader to remove his crusader so not much tactical insight to give you other than this.

The stormspear was decent and battle cannon I liked but what I DON'T like is making the knight almost as expensive as a Castellan :(

I don't know what else I would spend the 70ish points on though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another list to try would be:

GK Battalion
NDKGM
NDKGM
15 Strikes

AM Battalion
Pask Executioner, Plasma Sponsons
2 Tank Commanders Executioners, Plasma Sponsons
30 Infantry

Krast Crusader


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/16 13:20:31


Post by: psipso


 Drinkgasoline wrote:

Draigo has no purpose in that list. What does he add? A 180pt brick that isn't active until turn 3 even. This won't be a popular comment in this thread but Draigo at 180pts still isn't great unless you're taking 30+ marine bodies deepstriking and even then I would consider leaving him out. He doesn't add any offense until he's in combat which simply won't happen since your delivery puts him 9" from chaff turn two.


You are right. Specially on this list on almost everybody are GM and are already re-rolling 1's by themself and so Draigo's aura is sink of points. I was thinking that to pull the strategy to GI a 2++ astral aim NDKGM at turn 1 you need to deploy "2 casters". For a supreme command detachment it will be desirable a GK HQ that knows and can cast at least 2 powers. It can only recall Draigo, Voldus and Libby in order to be able to do that. So i was thinking the following:

Turn 1), deploy NDKGM along with Draigo, Draigo cast AI and GI in NDKGM. NDKGM cast sanctuary on himself and shoot at something.

Turn 2), Deep strike second NDKGM which would be the warloard with First to the Fray. Then GI Draigo at the side of the second NDKGM. Cast AI in second NDKGM which probably will be not as bracket as the first one. Then potentially charge both with NDKGM and draigo for a double chance that at least a beaststeak make it to the combat. Also as draigo is already 3++ sanctuary can be casted to the second (or first?) NDKGM. With the stratagem there is the option to have the 3 HQ at 3++.

I used to use Draigo in this way but I was also bringing interceptors to clear chaff. I guess that if you bring an AM brigade with 3 teams of mortars you can also have a decent chance to locally clear some screen to pull the same strategy. Althought that I'm agree that with a ork horde would be a bit short.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/16 19:50:40


Post by: Audustum


 Drinkgasoline wrote:
Audustum wrote:
 Drinkgasoline wrote:
BillyN831 wrote:
I apologize this early question but what are the best Grey Knights units now?




NDKGM
Interceptors
Dreadnoughts
Venerable Dreadnoughts


All dreadnoughts for everyone kind of suck, unfortunately (except for CSM Leviathans with Butcher Cannons).

I'd say for GK it's:

Draigo
GMDK
Strikes

Just spam both as much as you can if going GK. If you want to do really good though, replace your GK with Custodes.


At 101pts they're dead cheap now though and worth it.


101 isn't cheap enough for how little damage they do, unfortunately. 4 more points gets you a Strike Squad too, which I'd consider app around better.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/16 21:48:17


Post by: Drinkgasoline


Audustum wrote:
 Drinkgasoline wrote:
Audustum wrote:
 Drinkgasoline wrote:
BillyN831 wrote:
I apologize this early question but what are the best Grey Knights units now?




NDKGM
Interceptors
Dreadnoughts
Venerable Dreadnoughts


All dreadnoughts for everyone kind of suck, unfortunately (except for CSM Leviathans with Butcher Cannons).

I'd say for GK it's:

Draigo
GMDK
Strikes

Just spam both as much as you can if going GK. If you want to do really good though, replace your GK with Custodes.


At 101pts they're dead cheap now though and worth it.


101 isn't cheap enough for how little damage they do, unfortunately. 4 more points gets you a Strike Squad too, which I'd consider app around better.


Yeah I agree but a dread with LC and ML is decent, venerable with ignore LOS even moreso. You use astral aim then pop the re-roll1s strat and you have 3 shots hitting on 2s re-rolling 1s, D6 damage each, at 48" range, from behind LOS, ignoring cover


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/16 22:44:36


Post by: Audustum


 Drinkgasoline wrote:
Audustum wrote:
 Drinkgasoline wrote:
Audustum wrote:
 Drinkgasoline wrote:
BillyN831 wrote:
I apologize this early question but what are the best Grey Knights units now?




NDKGM
Interceptors
Dreadnoughts
Venerable Dreadnoughts


All dreadnoughts for everyone kind of suck, unfortunately (except for CSM Leviathans with Butcher Cannons).

I'd say for GK it's:

Draigo
GMDK
Strikes

Just spam both as much as you can if going GK. If you want to do really good though, replace your GK with Custodes.


At 101pts they're dead cheap now though and worth it.


101 isn't cheap enough for how little damage they do, unfortunately. 4 more points gets you a Strike Squad too, which I'd consider app around better.


Yeah I agree but a dread with LC and ML is decent, venerable with ignore LOS even moreso. You use astral aim then pop the re-roll1s strat and you have 3 shots hitting on 2s re-rolling 1s, D6 damage each, at 48" range, from behind LOS, ignoring cover


I know the strat. It's just not worth the investment. You're relying on a power for only 3 shots. You fire those at a Knight Castellan and probably none of them effect him (3+ to wound, 3++).


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/16 22:52:19


Post by: chnmmr


Really dejected to see that ‘GK’ lists are basically a minority of GK and majority of other factions.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/17 04:14:21


Post by: Xenomancers


Audustum wrote:
 Drinkgasoline wrote:
Audustum wrote:
 Drinkgasoline wrote:
Audustum wrote:
 Drinkgasoline wrote:
BillyN831 wrote:
I apologize this early question but what are the best Grey Knights units now?




NDKGM
Interceptors
Dreadnoughts
Venerable Dreadnoughts


All dreadnoughts for everyone kind of suck, unfortunately (except for CSM Leviathans with Butcher Cannons).

I'd say for GK it's:

Draigo
GMDK
Strikes

Just spam both as much as you can if going GK. If you want to do really good though, replace your GK with Custodes.


At 101pts they're dead cheap now though and worth it.


101 isn't cheap enough for how little damage they do, unfortunately. 4 more points gets you a Strike Squad too, which I'd consider app around better.


Yeah I agree but a dread with LC and ML is decent, venerable with ignore LOS even moreso. You use astral aim then pop the re-roll1s strat and you have 3 shots hitting on 2s re-rolling 1s, D6 damage each, at 48" range, from behind LOS, ignoring cover


I know the strat. It's just not worth the investment. You're relying on a power for only 3 shots. You fire those at a Knight Castellan and probably none of them effect him (3+ to wound, 3++).

Only chance against a castellan knight is to get GMDK into CC with it. Which aint gonna happen. You bring the Dreads to kill the other vehicles in the list and you ignore the castellan. Or you pop a mortar team on an objective - it's almost an automatic kill on them.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/17 06:09:28


Post by: Smotejob


chnmmr wrote:
Really dejected to see that ‘GK’ lists are basically a minority of GK and majority of other factions.


Yup. How to grey knight? Bring dread knights and guardsmen. Be sure to slaughter your guardsmen after each fight.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/17 07:02:24


Post by: Audustum


 Xenomancers wrote:
Audustum wrote:
 Drinkgasoline wrote:
Audustum wrote:
 Drinkgasoline wrote:
Audustum wrote:
 Drinkgasoline wrote:
BillyN831 wrote:
I apologize this early question but what are the best Grey Knights units now?




NDKGM
Interceptors
Dreadnoughts
Venerable Dreadnoughts


All dreadnoughts for everyone kind of suck, unfortunately (except for CSM Leviathans with Butcher Cannons).

I'd say for GK it's:

Draigo
GMDK
Strikes

Just spam both as much as you can if going GK. If you want to do really good though, replace your GK with Custodes.


At 101pts they're dead cheap now though and worth it.


101 isn't cheap enough for how little damage they do, unfortunately. 4 more points gets you a Strike Squad too, which I'd consider app around better.


Yeah I agree but a dread with LC and ML is decent, venerable with ignore LOS even moreso. You use astral aim then pop the re-roll1s strat and you have 3 shots hitting on 2s re-rolling 1s, D6 damage each, at 48" range, from behind LOS, ignoring cover


I know the strat. It's just not worth the investment. You're relying on a power for only 3 shots. You fire those at a Knight Castellan and probably none of them effect him (3+ to wound, 3++).

Only chance against a castellan knight is to get GMDK into CC with it. Which aint gonna happen. You bring the Dreads to kill the other vehicles in the list and you ignore the castellan. Or you pop a mortar team on an objective - it's almost an automatic kill on them.


Ignoring a Castellan for 6 rounds probably isn't really viable. That said, even if you shot the Dread at a Helverin's profile you're only averaging 4.55 wounds per round. The Helverin responds with an average 4.00 wounds back on the Dread. Even abusing Astral Aim, the fact that the Helverin has 14" Move and 60" range means he's probably shooting you when you can't really shoot him (unless you're in a mid-field Ruin or something and thus exposing yourself to assault).

Conversely, a Strike Squad in Rapid Fire range averages almost as much damage (2.96) and can follow it up with a charge for much more (also negates some of the Helverin's range advantage because they can Deep Strike). Factor in Objective Secured and unlocking further Battalion/Brigade detachments for CP, I think the points of the Dread are probably better spend on more Strikes. It's not even a huge wound difference (5 compared to 8).


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/17 10:33:15


Post by: Drinkgasoline


Audustum wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Audustum wrote:
 Drinkgasoline wrote:
Audustum wrote:
 Drinkgasoline wrote:
Audustum wrote:
 Drinkgasoline wrote:
BillyN831 wrote:
I apologize this early question but what are the best Grey Knights units now?




NDKGM
Interceptors
Dreadnoughts
Venerable Dreadnoughts


All dreadnoughts for everyone kind of suck, unfortunately (except for CSM Leviathans with Butcher Cannons).

I'd say for GK it's:

Draigo
GMDK
Strikes

Just spam both as much as you can if going GK. If you want to do really good though, replace your GK with Custodes.


At 101pts they're dead cheap now though and worth it.


101 isn't cheap enough for how little damage they do, unfortunately. 4 more points gets you a Strike Squad too, which I'd consider app around better.


Yeah I agree but a dread with LC and ML is decent, venerable with ignore LOS even moreso. You use astral aim then pop the re-roll1s strat and you have 3 shots hitting on 2s re-rolling 1s, D6 damage each, at 48" range, from behind LOS, ignoring cover


I know the strat. It's just not worth the investment. You're relying on a power for only 3 shots. You fire those at a Knight Castellan and probably none of them effect him (3+ to wound, 3++).

Only chance against a castellan knight is to get GMDK into CC with it. Which aint gonna happen. You bring the Dreads to kill the other vehicles in the list and you ignore the castellan. Or you pop a mortar team on an objective - it's almost an automatic kill on them.


Ignoring a Castellan for 6 rounds probably isn't really viable. That said, even if you shot the Dread at a Helverin's profile you're only averaging 4.55 wounds per round. The Helverin responds with an average 4.00 wounds back on the Dread. Even abusing Astral Aim, the fact that the Helverin has 14" Move and 60" range means he's probably shooting you when you can't really shoot him (unless you're in a mid-field Ruin or something and thus exposing yourself to assault).

Conversely, a Strike Squad in Rapid Fire range averages almost as much damage (2.96) and can follow it up with a charge for much more (also negates some of the Helverin's range advantage because they can Deep Strike). Factor in Objective Secured and unlocking further Battalion/Brigade detachments for CP, I think the points of the Dread are probably better spend on more Strikes. It's not even a huge wound difference (5 compared to 8).


This is massively flawed logic. You don't bring the dread to shoot at a Castellan, he takes down other vehicles very effectively from out of LOS (Tank Commanders, Ravagers) etc. He's even worth taking to ping off 2-3 Shining Spears per turn who are inevitably hiding behind LOS block terrain. He is also a source of astral aim for the NDKGM for the turn one 2++ and jump up. Your comparisons are off and don't make sense. What do 5 extra Strikes provide against a Tank Commander or a Wave Serpent? Or even an Alaitoc Flyer?

And your hope of a charge is ridiculous as you're relying on that 9" which we know very rarely happens. Strike squads can also be bubbled out very easily. They are for killing chaff and that's it. Even on a charge they don't do a massive amount of damage. 11 attacks against the Helverin you pose as an example, 7 hits, 2 wounds, one save probably made and wow you've done a whole D3 damage.

The 3++ Castellan is a problem for pretty much ALL lists to deal with unless you're running Eldar and the opponent somehow leaves him in range of both doom, jinx OR allows you to charge it with Shining Spears.

When faced with a Castellan and other knights try to bait out the rotate on another knight then shoot the Castellan with the Krast Crusader. If they only have the single Castellan then deploy out of 58" with your Crusader if possible meaning only the Volcano Lance can shoot you or you ignore him for the first turn whilst you remove other pieces of their army. Or just shoot the Krast Knight and everything else at the Castellan to do 12-15 wounds or so to it. By turn 2 these lists usually have spent most of their CP; with rotate being 3CP and Raven strat being 3CP etc. etc.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/17 18:56:25


Post by: psipso


 Drinkgasoline wrote:

And your hope of a charge is ridiculous as you're relying on that 9" which we know very rarely happens. Strike squads can also be bubbled out very easily. They are for killing chaff and that's it. Even on a charge they don't do a massive amount of damage. 11 attacks against the Helverin you pose as an example, 7 hits, 2 wounds, one save probably made and wow you've done a whole D3 damage.


For sure all of you already know it but just to give some context to help on the discussion or to help whoever comes here and still don't know it.

A) Chance of a 9" charge: 27.777777777777773 %
B) Chance of a 9" charge assuming that it will be used a command point to re-rolla a dice if the some of the 2 dices is equal or higher than 3: 52.30264%
C) Change of a 9" charge assuming to be in range of First to the fray and hence been able to re-roll both dices: 47.8395061728395 %
D) Chance that if 2 GK units are at from a target at least one can make a 9" charge: 47.8395061728395 %
E) Chance that if 2 GK units are at from a target at least one can make a 9" charge assuming that one will be able to use (B): 77.2496184903 %
F) Chance that if 2 GK units are at from a target at least one can make a 9" charge assuming that both units are under (C): 72.79282883706752 %

Feel free to correct my Maths as not always are correct


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/17 21:48:34


Post by: Drinkgasoline


psipso wrote:
 Drinkgasoline wrote:

And your hope of a charge is ridiculous as you're relying on that 9" which we know very rarely happens. Strike squads can also be bubbled out very easily. They are for killing chaff and that's it. Even on a charge they don't do a massive amount of damage. 11 attacks against the Helverin you pose as an example, 7 hits, 2 wounds, one save probably made and wow you've done a whole D3 damage.


For sure all of you already know it but just to give some context to help on the discussion or to help whoever comes here and still don't know it.

A) Chance of a 9" charge: 27.777777777777773 %
B) Chance of a 9" charge assuming that it will be used a command point to re-rolla a dice if the some of the 2 dices is equal or higher than 3: 41.666666666666663 %
C) Change of a 9" charge assuming to be in range of First to the fray and hence been able to re-roll both dices: 47.8395061728395 %
D) Chance that if 2 GK units are at from a target at least one can make a 9" charge: 47.8395061728395 %
E) Chance that if 2 GK units are at from a target at least one can make a 9" charge assuming that one will be able to use (B): 57.87037037037037 %
F) Chance that if 2 GK units are at from a target at least one can make a 9" charge assuming that both units are under (C): 72.79282883706752 %

Feel free to correct my Maths as not always are correct


Thanks for that. However I do maintain that charging strikes after DS isn't an effective strategy. I'm also not amazingly keen on making the NDKGM the warlord since he will be right in their face asking to be dealt with; and by making the Knight the warlord you save 2CP.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/17 22:11:08


Post by: psipso


 Drinkgasoline wrote:

Thanks for that. However I do maintain that charging strikes after DS isn't an effective strategy. I'm also not amazingly keen on making the NDKGM the warlord since he will be right in their face asking to be dealt with; and by making the Knight the warlord you save 2CP.


My intention is not to judge if is an effective strategy or not. Just to provide some data. (BTW I edited the initial mat-hammer and i use a simulation for the most tricky use cases which is more reliable than my lacklustre maths). I also forgot a use case which seems the most efficient and is to combine first to the fray and CP re-roll in the following way:

G) Chance of a 9" charge assuming following the rule that when rolling to charge roll if both of the dice are less than 4 then re-roll both dice with first to the fray, otherwise if any of both dices are 4 or more but the total is less than 9 then use a CP and re-roll the lowest: 56.95693569569357 %

Spoiler:


Ran 9999999 rolls in this simulation count the number of successful charges according the rule and made the average
I've tried the same simulation for 6,5 and 3 as well but 4 seems the best one:

6 -> 0.5217687521768752
5 -> 0.5588453558845355
4 -> 0.5695693569569357
3 -> 0.5540153554015356


I don't judge if it's worthy to use a CP to re-roll a charge. I'm aware that this will depend on the situation and the game. I just aim to give some data, hopefully without any mistakes, and been aware that there is more than raw numbers in the game.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/17 22:11:35


Post by: Smotejob


Really just arguing between a meh unit and a meh unit.

Dreadnoughts are better now. Yes. Are they efficient? No. Other stuff out there, external to the codex does everything they do better.

Strike squads are the "same" as before... But they were already meh. So many other armies getting better actually made strike squads worse in external balance.



8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/17 22:36:10


Post by: Drinkgasoline


 Smotejob wrote:
Really just arguing between a meh unit and a meh unit.

Dreadnoughts are better now. Yes. Are they efficient? No. Other stuff out there, external to the codex does everything they do better.

Strike squads are the "same" as before... But they were already meh. So many other armies getting better actually made strike squads worse in external balance.



I agree. Especially when you compare the same points-worth of strikes to Deathwatch vets...


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/17 23:19:11


Post by: Smotejob


 Drinkgasoline wrote:
 Smotejob wrote:
Really just arguing between a meh unit and a meh unit.

Dreadnoughts are better now. Yes. Are they efficient? No. Other stuff out there, external to the codex does everything they do better.

Strike squads are the "same" as before... But they were already meh. So many other armies getting better actually made strike squads worse in external balance.



I agree. Especially when you compare the same points-worth of strikes to Deathwatch vets...


Deathwatch vets ability to switch ammo is awesome. I really think every grey Knight unit should, in addition to smite, know the powers psybolt (make it a power) and hammerhand and be able to choose and cast one each turn and not be restricted if another unit already casted it.

Make all vehicles psyhic pilot and know psybolt and all non laser guns affected. Bolters to autocannon to assault cannons to psilencer.


The wish listing...

I will keep my 3 gk hq iso of my guard


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/18 00:23:46


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Smotejob wrote:
Really just arguing between a meh unit and a meh unit.

Dreadnoughts are better now. Yes. Are they efficient? No. Other stuff out there, external to the codex does everything they do better.

Strike squads are the "same" as before... But they were already meh. So many other armies getting better actually made strike squads worse in external balance.


Ven Dreads being cheaper creates easier access to anti-tank though, which isn't exactly a bad thing. I know my Deathwatch are happy but they get a more useful rule so...


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/18 01:04:47


Post by: Smotejob


On a ven dread using rerolls of 1 strategm and standing still against t8 3+saves
with ML + heavy plasma is 57pts per wound
With ML + twin lascannon is 29pts per wound
With twin auto Cannon + twin lascannon Is 28pts per wound.

Shooting against invul saves makes everything much worse.

A tank cmdr with cadia, reroll 1, firing turret twice, reroll number of shots order:
Plasma executioner plasma sponsons and lascannon is 22pts per wound (best long distance tank I use) and comes with 50% more wounds and +1t

Dreadnought burns 1 cp (unless you bring a character to hang out with him, then wasting that character) to reroll 1s and is still less efficient than the tank commander at distance.

Then if the tank CC has his buddy already hit the target, then use overlapping fields of fire and the next commander loaded the same goes hyper efficient at 14 pts per wound caused.

Vendread is better than what we had mono codex, but still externally not balanced.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/18 01:58:42


Post by: Leo_the_Rat


I know this may seem shocking but I just realized that we have no way to boost our heavy weapons. For some reason I had always just assumed that psybolt ammo would work in psycannons and psilencers. Do we have any way to increase those weapons effectiveness?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/18 02:41:57


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I know this may seem shocking but I just realized that we have no way to boost our heavy weapons. For some reason I had always just assumed that psybolt ammo would work in psycannons and psilencers. Do we have any way to increase those weapons effectiveness?

Not anymore.

If you want those Ven Dreads to be more effective, better cluster them up next to each other and spend a CP to reroll your hits.

It actually isn't a terribly strategy for Grey Knights and the only time I approve of that ghastly Strategem, if only because it means they can be deployed elsewhere without a babysitter. I know at minimum I'd try it with Deathwatch, though they can get cheaper babysitters and can camp and such.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/18 02:53:20


Post by: inquisitorblack


Hey guys, check out my review of the GK points adjustments. Would love some feedback

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdPo_nDBDj0


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/18 03:15:19


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


inquisitorblack wrote:
Hey guys, check out my review of the GK points adjustments. Would love some feedback

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdPo_nDBDj0

I'm not clicking on spam. Please present your thoughts via posting.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/18 04:10:38


Post by: daedalus


inquisitorblack wrote:
Hey guys, check out my review of the GK points adjustments. Would love some feedback

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdPo_nDBDj0


Cool! I left you a review in a place that is not this site and a medium that is jarringly unconversational too:

https://imgur.com/k8U25Kh

Look forward to the next one!


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/18 09:58:39


Post by: Cos


If yo do not like dread. What is te Best anti-tank in a pure GK list? Because i don't see any pure gk list without three venerable dread (ML-twin LC)


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/18 14:26:39


Post by: Danarc


Drinkgasoline wrote:
BillyN831 wrote:
I apologize this early question but what are the best Grey Knights units now?




NDKGM
Interceptors
Dreadnoughts
Venerable Dreadnoughts

Really?
Normal dreddy best then venerable?
I can't agree. normal dreddy aren't neither in the best units list.

And I agree that with TLC are better than plasma cannon. In particular after the points drop.

Anyway I just sold my GK army. I shipped them yesterday and I'm a little sad
But I'm sure that GK will take no care about them (as in the last 2 years) and probably they will be united to SM or cancelled since they told us that GW will not have the Primaris treatment.
So it was a hard choice but necessary (for me).


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/18 15:01:36


Post by: Drinkgasoline


 Smotejob wrote:
 Drinkgasoline wrote:
 Smotejob wrote:
Really just arguing between a meh unit and a meh unit.

Dreadnoughts are better now. Yes. Are they efficient? No. Other stuff out there, external to the codex does everything they do better.

Strike squads are the "same" as before... But they were already meh. So many other armies getting better actually made strike squads worse in external balance.



I agree. Especially when you compare the same points-worth of strikes to Deathwatch vets...


Deathwatch vets ability to switch ammo is awesome. I really think every grey Knight unit should, in addition to smite, know the powers psybolt (make it a power) and hammerhand and be able to choose and cast one each turn and not be restricted if another unit already casted it.

Make all vehicles psyhic pilot and know psybolt and all non laser guns affected. Bolters to autocannon to assault cannons to psilencer.


The wish listing...

I will keep my 3 gk hq iso of my guard



Mate... there are so many great and plausible ways to fix GK:

- Full smite
- Psybolt ammo for everyone with a stormbolter (not even as good as Deathwatch ammo so why not?)
- DKs ignore heavy weapons when moving and shooting
- 85pts Strike Squads
- NDK teleporters giving 12" move and ignore terrain/intervening models (why the sudden downgrade from 7th ed?)

Amongst others


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I know this may seem shocking but I just realized that we have no way to boost our heavy weapons. For some reason I had always just assumed that psybolt ammo would work in psycannons and psilencers. Do we have any way to increase those weapons effectiveness?



Psychic onslaught mate. It's psybolt ammo but for Psilencers/Psycannons. Super key on the NDKGM.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Danarc wrote:
Drinkgasoline wrote:
BillyN831 wrote:
I apologize this early question but what are the best Grey Knights units now?




NDKGM
Interceptors
Dreadnoughts
Venerable Dreadnoughts

Really?
Normal dreddy best then venerable?
I can't agree. normal dreddy aren't neither in the best units list.

And I agree that with TLC are better than plasma cannon. In particular after the points drop.

Anyway I just sold my GK army. I shipped them yesterday and I'm a little sad
But I'm sure that GK will take no care about them (as in the last 2 years) and probably they will be united to SM or cancelled since they told us that GW will not have the Primaris treatment.
So it was a hard choice but necessary (for me).



Wasn't written in any particular order mate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cos wrote:
If yo do not like dread. What is te Best anti-tank in a pure GK list? Because i don't see any pure gk list without three venerable dread (ML-twin LC)



Sorry to say but there is no effective pure GK list. You will just crumple and lose.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/18 15:22:56


Post by: bullyboy


 Smotejob wrote:



Deathwatch vets ability to switch ammo is awesome. I really think every grey Knight unit should, in addition to smite, know the powers psybolt (make it a power) and hammerhand and be able to choose and cast one each turn and not be restricted if another unit already casted it.



This is one of the most reasonable and interesting ideas I've seen for GKs with the exception of hammerhand. Having a unique psybolt power (probably needs to be WC7) that allows them to use that on their weapons (instead of a crazy costed 2CP strat) would make them great. I don't think you need to add hammerhand. I do think that only GK strike and interceptor squads should get this, vehicles should still have to use a strat (at 1CP). Purgation sqds and NDKs should get the equivalent power but affects psychic onslaught for psycannons and psilencers.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/18 22:03:43


Post by: Smotejob


 bullyboy wrote:
 Smotejob wrote:



Deathwatch vets ability to switch ammo is awesome. I really think every grey Knight unit should, in addition to smite, know the powers psybolt (make it a power) and hammerhand and be able to choose and cast one each turn and not be restricted if another unit already casted it.



This is one of the most reasonable and interesting ideas I've seen for GKs with the exception of hammerhand. Having a unique psybolt power (probably needs to be WC7) that allows them to use that on their weapons (instead of a crazy costed 2CP strat) would make them great. I don't think you need to add hammerhand. I do think that only GK strike and interceptor squads should get this, vehicles should still have to use a strat (at 1CP). Purgation sqds and NDKs should get the equivalent power but affects psychic onslaught for psycannons and psilencers.


The idea is that each until chooses between doing a mortal wound, charging their guns or charging their weapons depending on the situation.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/18 22:55:53


Post by: momerathe


So, despite the car-crash that was CA, I've kind of fallen for the Paladin/GTK models. GTK are still disfavoured I understand, so what's the best way to use Paladins these days? Turn two deepstrike with char support? Or is there any value in Gate-ing a large unit of them turn one?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/19 06:55:59


Post by: zinch


psipso wrote:
 Drinkgasoline wrote:

And your hope of a charge is ridiculous as you're relying on that 9" which we know very rarely happens. Strike squads can also be bubbled out very easily. They are for killing chaff and that's it. Even on a charge they don't do a massive amount of damage. 11 attacks against the Helverin you pose as an example, 7 hits, 2 wounds, one save probably made and wow you've done a whole D3 damage.


For sure all of you already know it but just to give some context to help on the discussion or to help whoever comes here and still don't know it.

A) Chance of a 9" charge: 27.777777777777773 %
B) Chance of a 9" charge assuming that it will be used a command point to re-rolla a dice if the some of the 2 dices is equal or higher than 3: 52.30264%
C) Change of a 9" charge assuming to be in range of First to the fray and hence been able to re-roll both dices: 47.8395061728395 %
D) Chance that if 2 GK units are at from a target at least one can make a 9" charge: 47.8395061728395 %
E) Chance that if 2 GK units are at from a target at least one can make a 9" charge assuming that one will be able to use (B): 77.2496184903 %
F) Chance that if 2 GK units are at from a target at least one can make a 9" charge assuming that both units are under (C): 72.79282883706752 %

Feel free to correct my Maths as not always are correct


I've not revised your maths and is not only for you, but for the conversation you were maintaining: when you deep strike, you need a 10 to charge (and that's an initial 16,666%)


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/19 09:25:26


Post by: Spartacus


zinch wrote:
Spoiler:
psipso wrote:
 Drinkgasoline wrote:

And your hope of a charge is ridiculous as you're relying on that 9" which we know very rarely happens. Strike squads can also be bubbled out very easily. They are for killing chaff and that's it. Even on a charge they don't do a massive amount of damage. 11 attacks against the Helverin you pose as an example, 7 hits, 2 wounds, one save probably made and wow you've done a whole D3 damage.


For sure all of you already know it but just to give some context to help on the discussion or to help whoever comes here and still don't know it.

A) Chance of a 9" charge: 27.777777777777773 %
B) Chance of a 9" charge assuming that it will be used a command point to re-rolla a dice if the some of the 2 dices is equal or higher than 3: 52.30264%
C) Change of a 9" charge assuming to be in range of First to the fray and hence been able to re-roll both dices: 47.8395061728395 %
D) Chance that if 2 GK units are at from a target at least one can make a 9" charge: 47.8395061728395 %
E) Chance that if 2 GK units are at from a target at least one can make a 9" charge assuming that one will be able to use (B): 77.2496184903 %
F) Chance that if 2 GK units are at from a target at least one can make a 9" charge assuming that both units are under (C): 72.79282883706752 %

Feel free to correct my Maths as not always are correct


I've not revised your maths and is not only for you, but for the conversation you were maintaining: when you deep strike, you need a 10 to charge (and that's an initial 16,666%)


Incorrect, the main FAQ clarifies that you only need a roll of 9 inches to charge from what we call deepstrike (and they call Reinforcements), if it is not evident enough from the wording.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/19 09:39:06


Post by: tneva82


zinch wrote:
I've not revised your maths and is not only for you, but for the conversation you were maintaining: when you deep strike, you need a 10 to charge (and that's an initial 16,666%)


Ummm say what? You have to deploy more than 9" away. So deploy 9.5" away. Move 9" charge forward. You are 0.5" away. If you are within 1" you are in combat. Ergo 9 is needed. You do NOT need to get into b2b contact to be in combat. Within 1" is enough.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/19 09:45:23


Post by: zinch


tneva82 wrote:
zinch wrote:
I've not revised your maths and is not only for you, but for the conversation you were maintaining: when you deep strike, you need a 10 to charge (and that's an initial 16,666%)


Ummm say what? You have to deploy more than 9" away. So deploy 9.5" away. Move 9" charge forward. You are 0.5" away. If you are within 1" you are in combat. Ergo 9 is needed. You do NOT need to get into b2b contact to be in combat. Within 1" is enough.


You are right, ofc. I forgot you don't need to reach b2b to charge in this edition

I 'm returning from a time not playing 40k and I have not played many games of 8th edition. Luckily, in the last game I rolled a 10 for my DS charge


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/19 20:08:06


Post by: Elric Greywolf


What do people think of this list idea? Suggestion requests at the bottom.
Spoiler:
GK Battalion
GMDK, psilen, psycan, Hammer {Sanctuary} [First to the Fray]
Voldus {Purge, Sanctuary, Vortex}
GKSS 5x {Hammerhand}
GKSS 5x {Astral Aim}
GKSS 5x {Gate}
GKI 10x {Vortex}

Guard Battalion
Commander, Aquila
Commander
Infantry 10x, Mortar
Infantry 10x, Mortar
Infantry 10x

Knight Super-Heavy
Warglaive, Melta
Warglaive, Melta
Errant, Reaper, Thermal, Ironstorm, Sanctuary [Ion Bulwark]
General plan is GKI, GMDK, Glaives, and Errant rush forward T1. GMDK gets the Gate from the deployed Strikers. That's two large bodies with a 2++ and 3++ against shooting, as well as a psilencer and SBs to clear chaff.
Wave 2 is Voldus and the additional Strikes. Not a lot of counter-punch, but some decent survivability imo.

My question is about which Household Tradition I should take. Krast works well because I'm set up for melee and I want to rush the enemy lines. I like the Krast strat (melee 6s explode).
Raven would combo well bc I could advance one of the Glaives and then use Full Tilt (charge after advance) + Pack Hunters (reroll charge for Warglaives after a successful charge) for good chances on T1 stuck-in.
Or maybe even Hawk--their Strat (overwatch and then intervene 2d6 when a friendly unit is charged) would be great support for my aggressive GK contingent.
I ALSO am not entirely sold on the Warglaives vs Helverins, but I think it's the right choice bc of my list idea in general--having everything rush forward seems better than having a few targets sit in the back.

So, thoughts anyone?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/19 20:26:50


Post by: daedalus


Probably doesn't need to be asked, but I presume you're going Cadian with the loyal 32?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/19 21:32:11


Post by: greyknight12


I’ve had a couple games with a similar allied knight detachment with my Custodes, and after getting my big knight vaporized by a Gauss Pylon yesterday I think Taranis is 100% the way to go in this case. Your knight is really there as a fire sponge, to draw fire off your GMDK and to a lesser extent, your armigers. Inevitably you will face a list with a single big anti-tank gun, give the errant a 4++ and rotate job shields. After they kill it, get back up again cause even a knight with 2 wounds is still an objective holder and a threat.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/20 01:23:30


Post by: Smotejob


Taranis or krast. Taranis great for durability, krast for some angry knights.

If taranis, armor of sainted ion with ion bulwark makes a crazy durable knight.

If krast, I like the headsmen mark. Makes it very scary to other big things quickly... But I would switch to a crusader or warden in that instance. Krast makes those warglaive more consistent


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/21 01:42:23


Post by: Nairul


Lots of time spent list building and coming up with different iterations. I've landed on a pure 2000pt GK list, no allies. As far as pure lists go, this may be the most competitive I could possibly think to make it.

List
Spoiler:
Points: 1999
CPs: 13
Drops: 14
ITC Secondaries: Recon, other two are situational.

Battalion
-Brother-Captain Stern (Purge)
-Lord Kaldor Draigo (Gate, Vortex)

-Strike Squad (Gate) — Falchions, Psilencer
-Strike Squad (Hammerhand) — Falchions
-Strike Squad (Vortex) — Falchions

-Brotherhood Ancient (Hammerhand) — Banner of Refining Flame, Warlord (First to the Fray)
-Venerable Dreadnought (Astral) — Twin Las, Twin Auto
-Venerable Dreadnought (Astral) — Twin Las, Twin Auto
-Venerable Dreadnought (Astral) — Twin Las, Twin Auto

Battalion
-GMNDK (Sanctuary) — Teleporter, H. Incinerator, H. Psycannon
-GMNDK (Sanctuary) — Teleporter, H. Incinerator, H. Psycannon

-Strike Squad (Gate) — Falchions
-Strike Squad (Hammerhand) — Falchions
-Strike Squad (Vortex) — Falchions


Deployment
Spoiler:
Tactical Reserves makes this difficult, but not impossible. I'll cover my strategy against shooty lists, which are naturally our toughest competitor.

The most important decision point is what to do with your GMNDKs. Even if you deploy the GMNDK as far back as possible, some shooty lists ("Type 1") can still, statistically, pop him if they get first turn, since he'll only have a 4++. Other shooty lists ("Type 2") won't have enough range to pop a far-back GMNDK. If against a shooty list be sure to assess whether you're dealing with a Type 1 or Type 2 and react accordingly. As is standard, both GMNDK's have teleporters so if you're up against Type 1 you can keep them both safe in reinforcements. Of course, this will require excess Strike Squads to start on the field in order to obey the Tactical Reserves rule.

The ideal table deployment against a Type 2 shooty list squeaks in at 1,017 points and 7 out of 14 units on the table:

-1x GMNDK in the furthest away corner
-Draigo near enough to GMNDK that he can cast Gate on GMNDK Turn 1
-Stern near enough to Draigo that he can be Gated by Draigo on Turn 2
-Ven Dreads wherever they can have good LOS, preferably as many near Draigo's 6" aura as possible.
-1x Strike Squad (Gate) holding an objective or behind LOS. Preferably both.

Everything else in reinforcements.


Ideal Turn 1 Strategy
Spoiler:

Heed on GMNDK, then Sanctuary GMNDK, then Gate GMNDK up the board. Strongly consider spending 1CP on Psychic Channeling to ensure Sanctuary goes off, especially if opponent will be in Deny range.

Astral Aim whichever Ven Dread needs it.


Ideal Turn 2 & 3+ Strategy
Spoiler:

Heed on GMNDK, if he's still alive.

Deep strike 2nd GMNDK.
Deep strike Ancient.

Deep strike as many Strike Squads as are capable of finding value. Here I define value as any one of the following options:
(1) Landing on a free objective to secure VP.
(2) Finding $$$ Vortex placement for maximum chains to additional units.
(3) Clearing chaff with Storm Bolters.
(4) Landing safe behind LOS-blocking terrain whilst also threatening a 9" charge.
(5) Screening characters.

If these value options run-out, then keep remaining Strike Squads safe in reinforcements. I try never to place a Strike Squad where their value rests solely on rolling a successful 9" charge. That is a coinflip you never want to take unless forced.

Gate Stern next to Ancient. Perform D6 Smite combo, preferably on something with a nasty invulnerable save.
Smite and Purge Soul something with Stern. With +1 Leadership from the Ancient he's at Leadership 10, so his Purge Soul is low key scary and can result in crazy MWs with a little bit of luck. I love this little combo. Lots of opponents don't expect it, and if they roll low on the Leadership check it's a fun way to tax their CPs on reroll stratagems.

Sanctuary on 2nd GMNDK. Again, consider Psychic Channeling.

Ideal Turn 3+
By now Draigo can stop being a Ven Dread babysitter and actually join the party, if he hasn't already.


Comments, questions, and criticism welcome.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/21 05:17:42


Post by: greyknight12


I know strikes are great, but...is there a reason to take them over interceptors other than to fill out a battalion? For 2 more points you get a 12" move (over things), and a once per game redeploy. Considering how important getting in close is for GK, I feel like the extra mobility is huge to close in on stuff after that initial deepstrike/gate attack. We can clear chaff, but getting to the juicy stuff behind it can be a problem with a 6" move.
Especially when our strategems (and units) are mostly too expensive anyway, does it make more sense to simply take the better units rather than take inferior ones so you can use psybolt for another turn? Idk. Part of me thinks the best list is 3xGMDK, Draigo, and max interceptor squads organized into 3 outrider detachments going for a turn 1 shunt/gate draigo and deepstrike the GMDKs turn 2, or possibly a GMDK instead of draigo if you're going for the T1 charge.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/21 05:31:28


Post by: Spartacus


 greyknight12 wrote:
I know strikes are great, but...is there a reason to take them over interceptors other than to fill out a battalion? For 2 more points you get a 12" move (over things), and a once per game redeploy. Considering how important getting in close is for GK, I feel like the extra mobility is huge to close in on stuff after that initial deepstrike/gate attack. We can clear chaff, but getting to the juicy stuff behind it can be a problem with a 6" move.
Especially when our strategems (and units) are mostly too expensive anyway, does it make more sense to simply take the better units rather than take inferior ones so you can use psybolt for another turn? Idk. Part of me thinks the best list is 3xGMDK, Draigo, and max interceptor squads organized into 3 outrider detachments going for a turn 1 shunt/gate draigo and deepstrike the GMDKs turn 2, or possibly a GMDK instead of draigo if you're going for the T1 charge.


Interceptors are really good overall, at the new price I'd even (carefully) suggest they are very strong even compared to FA choices from most other codexes.

However CP are also really strong and necessary. If you aren't bringing the Loyal 32 your only options to earn them are Strikes or Terminators - I know what I'd choose.

I am brainstorming lists with MSU interceptor spam. I am trying to think who to Gate T1 to support 5 units of interceptors. At this stage I'm thinking Draigo over a GMDK, as he improves their SB and Psilencer fire even more. The GMDK can give first to the fray as well as better shooting, but I'm not expecting to have to rely on getting any charges off. Any infantry in rapid fire range of so many rerolling Storm Bolters are gonna be dead before the charge phase. Also you probably want to leave a bit of distance between yourself and the enemy line where possible, to avoid being charged/rapid fired easily. The interceptors can use their excellent movement the next turn to close in and get the charge off.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/21 06:26:40


Post by: Nairul


 greyknight12 wrote:
I know strikes are great, but...is there a reason to take them over interceptors other than to fill out a battalion? For 2 more points you get a 12" move (over things), and a once per game redeploy. Considering how important getting in close is for GK, I feel like the extra mobility is huge to close in on stuff after that initial deepstrike/gate attack. We can clear chaff, but getting to the juicy stuff behind it can be a problem with a 6" move.
Especially when our strategems (and units) are mostly too expensive anyway, does it make more sense to simply take the better units rather than take inferior ones so you can use psybolt for another turn? Idk. Part of me thinks the best list is 3xGMDK, Draigo, and max interceptor squads organized into 3 outrider detachments going for a turn 1 shunt/gate draigo and deepstrike the GMDKs turn 2, or possibly a GMDK instead of draigo if you're going for the T1 charge.


Thanks for the feedback.

Neither Psybolt Ammo (nor Psychic Onslaught) are really why I designed a two battalion list. Those I agree are bloated and over-costed stratagems. But there's a reason why many dominant meta lists contain two battalions. Aside from your standard re-roll and combat interrupt, I feel GK are CP hungry for a few stronger stratagems in our codex like Heed, Psychic Channeling, Only in Death Does Duty End, Mental Focus.

If Interceptors were troops I would 100% take them over Strikes. Alas, they're not. Don't let the 2-point drop fool you. Interceptors have suffered a pretty significant nerf recently in that they no longer ignore models/terrain outside of the Movement phase. That was a major blow to their charge potential. In my judgement the remaining benefits of Interceptors (mobility & capability of deploying on-the-table) do not outweigh the massive extra CP gained by taking Strikes.

Another, less pronounced (but still worth mentioning) advantage to Strikes over Interceptors is that Strike's ability to be held in deep strike literally saves their life in certain matchups. These are power armor marines we're talking about. If a Drukhari player gets first turn against an Interceptor-heavy list, you're looking at a lot of dead Interceptors to Venoms before those marines have gotten to do anything. So the ability to deepstrike actually benefits a Strike Squad's survivability. Edit: forgot Interceptors have Teleport Strike too.

Your 3x Outrider list idea wouldn't quite work in Matched play, as only 3x Interceptor Squads can be taken maximum, abiding by standard datasheet restriction rules. Still there's nothing awful about 1x Outrider detachment. As so much of GK's best units require deepstrike, Interceptors are a suitable way to tip the Tactical Reserves balance into a legal list. Though it's my judgement that Ven Dreads and Stormhawk Interceptors serve that function much better.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/22 04:15:30


Post by: Smotejob


Interceptors can be held on reserve too... They have teleport strike just like strike squads


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/22 15:02:15


Post by: Nairul


 Smotejob wrote:
Interceptors can be held on reserve too... They have teleport strike just like strike squads


I stand corrected! Thank you.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/22 18:55:55


Post by: Homeskillet


Now that I'm done pouting about GW's treatment of GK with Chapter Approved, here's a new list idea I wouldn't have tried before. The HQ points drop allow for a double Battalion of GK, despite the bastards at GW not actually dropping our Strike Squad price. And being able to field a double Battalion makes taking Brother Captains more worthwhile, since you can move up and effectively Smite things turn 1. I was definitely in the camp of "Bro Caps are garbage" before their points drop, but are worth looking at now. Maybe. I had already had good success with Paladins before the points drop, so all the more reason to keep using them. Anywho, here's my double Battalion with a Knight bullet sponge list:

1- Bro Cap: Destroyer of Crys'yllx, Psilencer
1- Crowe
3x 5- Strike Squad: 1 Psilencer/squad
1- Venerable Dread: twin las/missile (Astral Aim)

1- Bro Cap: Falchions, Psilencer
1- Voldus: Warlord
3x 5- Strike Squad: 1 Psilencer/squad
5- Paladins: 2 Psilencers, Paragon with Hammer

1- Knight Crusader: Avenger Gatling/Thermal Cannon; pay CP to give him a Warlord Trait for better invul, and another CP for the relic Gatling Cannon

If you go second, use Prepared Positions; if not, move up and start smiting and stormboltering. Gate the Paladins into enemy lines and let them gum things up, eventually move Voldus up to support them. Knight takes a CP a round for Ion Shields and soaks up bullets.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/22 21:50:55


Post by: GuardStrider


Lately I have been having a lot of success with this list, specially against the Tau gunline that plague my meta.
Tbh it's only half GK but still quite fluffy imo (Inquisition stormtroopers, Gks and Knights of House Steel). If you want to be competitive I guess you could replace the scions for the loyal 32

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [15 PL, 228pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Regimental Doctrine: Regiment: Millitarum Tempestus

+ HQ +

Tempestor Prime [3 PL, 45pts]: Plasma Pistol

Tempestor Prime [3 PL, 45pts]: Tempestus Command Rod

+ Troops +

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 46pts]: 4x Scion
. Tempestor: Bolt pistol, Chainsword

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 46pts]: 4x Scion
. Tempestor: Bolt pistol, Chainsword

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 46pts]: 4x Scion
. Tempestor: Bolt pistol, Chainsword

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Grey Knights) [60 PL, 955pts] ++

+ HQ +

Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 249pts]: Dreadfist, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword, Sanctuary

+ Elites +

Apothecary [5 PL, 88pts]: Gate of Infinity, Nemesis Daemon Hammer

Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 145pts]: Astral Aim, Missile Launcher, Twin Lascannon

+ Fast Attack +

Interceptor Squad [16 PL, 243pts]: Hammerhand
. 9x Interceptor (Falchions): 9x Storm Bolter
. Interceptor Justicar: Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Storm bolter

Interceptor Squad [8 PL, 115pts]: Purge Soul
. 4x Interceptor (Falchions): 4x Storm Bolter
. Interceptor Justicar: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter

Interceptor Squad [8 PL, 115pts]: Vortex of Doom
. 4x Interceptor (Halberd): 4x Storm Bolter
. Interceptor Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

++ Super-Heavy Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Imperial Knights) [43 PL, 812pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Household Choice: House Taranis, Questor Mechanicus

+ Lord of War +

Armiger Helverins [9 PL, 172pts]
. Armiger Helverin: Heavy Stubber

Armiger Helverins [9 PL, 172pts]
. Armiger Helverin: Heavy Stubber

Knight Crusader [25 PL, 468pts]: Character (Knight Lance), Heavy Stubber, Heirloom (Taranis): Fury of Mars, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Thermal Cannon, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Ion Bulwark
. Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer: Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer

++ Total: [118 PL, 1995pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/23 01:02:24


Post by: Drinkgasoline


Played a game against Tau today and wow the 2++ NDKGM is extremely hard for them to deal with. My NDKGM survived his entire turn one of shooting.

The NDKGM are perfect distraction pieces in this list whilst the Krast knight does a lot of the heavy lifting and once he got in charge range he removed all the Tau characters.

I still really like the Astral Aim Dread. As I didn't need Astral Aim on the NDKGM I kept casting on the Dread and he was just removing battlesuits every turn.

Remember to kill all the drones first turn one! Then the subsequent turns are a lot easier. Also remember the knight can heroically intervene 6' in their turn even if they haven't charged you.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/23 08:04:48


Post by: Homeskillet


I like the idea of now cheaper Interceptors mass jumping up along with a Gated NDKGM with First to the Fray. I'm guessing that's what GuadStrider used? The only issue I have is by maxing out your Interceptors, you're hampering your ability to get CP. I had looked into an Outrider with maxed 10 man squads and a NDKGM, and it was over 800 points. Anyone tried this?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/23 12:00:15


Post by: GuardStrider


 Homeskillet wrote:
I like the idea of now cheaper Interceptors mass jumping up along with a Gated NDKGM with First to the Fray. I'm guessing that's what GuadStrider used? The only issue I have is by maxing out your Interceptors, you're hampering your ability to get CP. I had looked into an Outrider with maxed 10 man squads and a NDKGM, and it was over 800 points. Anyone tried this?


Yeah, thats pretty much what I dio, mass interceptor jump followed my Gated Grandmaster on a NDK, started to appreciate Interceptors more than Strike Squads due the fact that they can actually reliably charge people with their large movement.


To max Interceptors I guess you could remove the Venerable Dread, but you may hurt your already poor anti armor by doing so.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/25 06:56:12


Post by: psipso


 GuardStrider wrote:
 Homeskillet wrote:
I like the idea of now cheaper Interceptors mass jumping up along with a Gated NDKGM with First to the Fray. I'm guessing that's what GuadStrider used? The only issue I have is by maxing out your Interceptors, you're hampering your ability to get CP. I had looked into an Outrider with maxed 10 man squads and a NDKGM, and it was over 800 points. Anyone tried this?


Yeah, thats pretty much what I dio, mass interceptor jump followed my Gated Grandmaster on a NDK, started to appreciate Interceptors more than Strike Squads due the fact that they can actually reliably charge people with their large movement.


To max Interceptors I guess you could remove the Venerable Dread, but you may hurt your already poor anti armor by doing so.


Just one advise if you go on the direction to synergy Draigo / GM / Banner auras in big assault units, especially with low attacks per models ones like interceptors or strikes. Don't be as stupid as I was for a long time. When you charging you do not need to move all the units in base contact with its targets. Also, you don't need to pile in with all the models if you don't want. So left one outside of the range of "within an inch of a model that is within an inch of an enemy model" but inside the 6" bubble of Draigo / GM / Banner so if the later cannot make the charge at least they will be providing the aura buff in combat. Is the reason why in this big units I use to have just one model with the warding stave as the mission of this single model is not to contribute to the combat but to conduct the aura buff to the unit, so with the stave also he can provide a first 5++ save as an extra bonus.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/27 13:08:54


Post by: GuardStrider


Personally I don't like the banner, most times either I fail to charge it or fail to charge the interceptors, so they end up 90% times I used it out of the aura


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/27 17:57:00


Post by: psipso


 GuardStrider wrote:
Personally I don't like the banner, most times either I fail to charge it or fail to charge the interceptors, so they end up 90% times I used it out of the aura


Probably I understand it wrong, in which case I would have to invite a lot of persons to beers to compensate. I guess that is more a topic for YMDC but when it says:

models Grey Knights Infantry units that are within 6" of a sacred banner


it means:

models Grey Knights Infantry units that are (the units) within 6" of a sacred banner makes one additional attack

or

models Grey Knights Infantry units that are (the models) within 6" of a sacred banner makes one additional attack

?

In the rulebook there is an statement that talks about units wholly within or models wholly within vs units within or models within but i cannot find any statement about "models of units within".


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/30 23:29:40


Post by: Smotejob


putting a battle report up from a list I am trying out

Here is the list:
Battalion
GMNDK - warlord - psilencer, psycannon, sword, trait: tenacious survivor (6+ fnp from rulebook)
GMNDK - psilencer, psycannon, sword, teleporter

Strike squad x6 - falchions
Strike squad x6 - falchions
Strike squad x6 - falchions

Interceptors x10 - falchions

Purgation x5 - 4 psilencer

Vanguard detachment
Techmarine

Venerable dreadnought - twin lascannon, twin autocannon
Venerable dreadnought - twin lascannon, twin autocannon
Venerable dreadnought - twin lascannon, twin autocannon

Assassins vanguard
Callidus
Callidus
Culexus

Just did my first fight with this list. Went against a guard/imperial knight list someone at my flgs said he is bringing to an up coming tournament.

His list was 3 leman russ tank commanders, 30 guardsmen infantry, an astropath, a bunch of elysians armed to the teeth with plasma, an imperial knight warden w. 2 warglaives and a vulture.

We called it on turn 3 when all he had left was the vulture 2x leman russ and a couple commanders.

Phew boy did my venerable dreads do some WORK this game. They were stars. The did the ancients proud.

I held 1 GMNDK in reserve with my strike squads. Interceptors were deployed behind a nice wall. Dreadnoughts were all sharing some nice ruins. Purgation squad was in another set of ruins.

He reserves his elysian force, he had troops in front of this knights who were in front of his tanks (the best way to sum up his deployment).

Turn 1 - I finished setting up first, both rolled a 3 for turn, I took 1st turn.
Dreadknight ports up the board and puts a few wounds on a warglaive, the dreadnoughts band together and destroy a leman russ right out of the gate. Purgation squad rips up a unit of guardsmen. Interceptors stood still in hiding.

His turn 1 - tried to hold my dreadknight up in CC for tar pit with an infantry squad, NDK kills 3 in over watch, 5 more in combat, the rest of the unit wants to run, burns 2 cp to keep them around +1 from the callidus assassin, earns 1 back from warlord trait. deletes my purgation squad with leman russ fire, the knights move up the board and whiff on shooting. his vulture targeted my interceptors (was fast enough to get the angle) and couldn't get around the 2+ save only killing 1.

My turn 2 - I bring in 1 strike squad and the other dreadknight. leaving 2 more strikes in reserve. My warlord dreadknight gets ported out of combat to go confront his knight warden. My two callidus come in (one rolls a 1 and deep strikes 4 inches from a leman russ) the other comes to help with the knights. My interceptors teleport to help with the knight as well (they know vortex of doom). To my benefit, he bunched up his knights pretty close. Vortex does 2 wounds to each of the knights. My Dreadnoughts target the knight warden doing 18 wounds to it, the callidus does 3 mortals to it. After all said and done it has 3 wounds left on it. my dreadknight makes it into combat and way overkill the knight and piles into another knight. My strike squad that deep struck in that turn finished off the last remained infantry squad. My callidus gets a 4 inch charge off tying up a leman russ commander.

His turn 2 - brings in the elysians, and they drop my gmndk warlord.. but that was about it. But now his plasma drop is spent.

My turn 3 - I deep strike the other two strike squads. The venerable dreads clean up the two warglaives and cripple the vulture to the last teir. I clean up the rest of his infantry with PAGK and the other GMNDK.
The assassins just assault the remaining leman russes to tie them up again. We called it there.

Had this game gone on 1 more turn, he likely would have been tabled.

GMNDK did good jobs as bullet sponges, but those ven dreads did WORK. There is more testing to come but I like this list.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/31 15:09:41


Post by: Smotejob


My initial repulsion against 2018 CA is less as I am coming up with functioning lists that are holding their own. Am I still perturbed about a couple decisions? Yes. But my grey knights are winning games and I'm using more than strikes and gmndk. Are they in my list? Yes. But good to see other stuff.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/31 16:55:02


Post by: greyknight12


 Smotejob wrote:
My initial repulsion against 2018 CA is less as I am coming up with functioning lists that are holding their own. Am I still perturbed about a couple decisions? Yes. But my grey knights are winning games and I'm using more than strikes and gmndk. Are they in my list? Yes. But good to see other stuff.

Are you specifically playing with improved units from CA, or are you just giving GK another go? Cause I had a couple functioning lists before CA 2018 as well, and I could win games...just not against good players or most tournament lists.

EDIT: @Smotejob I’m not trying to question your abilities as a long-time GK player, I’m legitimately just curious what’s changed for your lists/tactics. More of my frustration is seeing people say stuff like “OMG 2++ GMDKs are really good”, “GMDKs can take down knights!!”, and “I’ve started using mass interceptor shunt” when those are things I’ve been doing literally since the codex dropped (except for a time when I ran triple storm ravens with Draigo).


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/31 17:12:23


Post by: Audustum


 greyknight12 wrote:
 Smotejob wrote:
My initial repulsion against 2018 CA is less as I am coming up with functioning lists that are holding their own. Am I still perturbed about a couple decisions? Yes. But my grey knights are winning games and I'm using more than strikes and gmndk. Are they in my list? Yes. But good to see other stuff.

Are you specifically playing with improved units from CA, or are you just giving GK another go? Cause I had a couple functioning lists before CA 2018 as well, and I could win games...just not against good players or most tournament lists.


Yeah, the big problem for me is GK's don't really win in a competitive setting.

Let's take the list in the batrep for example, Leman Russes aren't wildly considered very good. The Warden is also considered a poor choice in Knight. What if, instead, that Warden had been a Castellan (dropping Tank Commanders as necessary). The rest of the points are used making a Brigade/getting more CP as competitive Astra Militarum does.

All three Dreads combined AND in a re-roll 1's aura, would only average 5.43 wounds from their lascannons and 3.11 damage from the autocannons for a combined 8.54 average. That's assuming the Castellan does NOT Rotate Ion Shields. If he does, it's 3.63 plus 3.11 for 6.74. He has 28 life and even if you degrade him he can Machine Spirt Resurgent for 1 CP and ignore it. As an additional FYI, the former scenario has a 17% chance of doing no wounds to the Castellan and the latter a 34% chance. 1 in 3 times, expect to do zilch to the guy if Rotate is up.

By comparison, since you can only Astral Aim 1 Dreadnought, the other 2 are just completely hosed by return fire. Cawl's Wrath should average 8.49 wounds to a Dreadnought with the Raven strat going, 3.52 with the Volcano, 3.64 with the Siegebreakers and 2.11 with the Oathbreaker. Combined total of 17.76 damage to Dreadnought class targets on average.

One unit change opens up an entire world of hurting. Sprinkle in Mortars with the Infantry, maybe Ogryns, sounds like a pain train.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2018/12/31 18:21:24


Post by: Smotejob


 greyknight12 wrote:
 Smotejob wrote:
My initial repulsion against 2018 CA is less as I am coming up with functioning lists that are holding their own. Am I still perturbed about a couple decisions? Yes. But my grey knights are winning games and I'm using more than strikes and gmndk. Are they in my list? Yes. But good to see other stuff.

Are you specifically playing with improved units from CA, or are you just giving GK another go? Cause I had a couple functioning lists before CA 2018 as well, and I could win games...just not against good players or most tournament lists.

EDIT: @Smotejob I’m not trying to question your abilities as a long-time GK player, I’m legitimately just curious what’s changed for your lists/tactics. More of my frustration is seeing people say stuff like “OMG 2++ GMDKs are really good”, “GMDKs can take down knights!!”, and “I’ve started using mass interceptor shunt” when those are things I’ve been doing literally since the codex dropped (except for a time when I ran triple storm ravens with Draigo).


I have a list that is fun with purifiers and land raider crusader. Crowe is in that one. Venerable dreads are now efficient enough to be included. My Brother captain and crowe are seeing play now. Started including my ancient as well more.

Flgs games feel better and more confident. Will be attending my first ca2018 tournament in a couple weeks. Will see how it goes


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/01 01:43:23


Post by: Nairul


Never thought these words would come out of my mouth — 80-point Crowe is starting to grow on me.

He's a cheap HQ slot, and simply a good filler if you have 80 spare points remaining and don't know what to buy. Now he's 75% the cost of a Strike Squad, but more durable AND more threatening. And since my lists auto-include a Brother Captain (usually Stern), there's a potential synergy for Crowe's D6 smite. To find value with him I have to charge him into any unit that is unlikely to kill him after one round of combat. That way he'll get his D6 smite off next turn. For these reasons I prefer him to a Brotherhood Champion.

More words I never thought would come out of my mouth — 180-point Draigo does NOT seem to be an auto-include. He's still situational.

With GMNDK's more prevalent than ever, and therefore our re-roll auras abundant, in order for Draigo's aura to find value he would have to to affect LOADS of BS/WS 3+ models... or alternatively Stormraven/Stormhawk Interceptor(s). Also the resurgence of Ven Dreads (which I've not yet decided on) means that Draigo's aura becomes even more redundant. Sure he's still a beast in combat, but I'm not convinced his combat prowess alone is worth 180 points.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/01 04:00:00


Post by: Smotejob


I agree, I keep not bringing draigo. I think he is great in a paladin heavy list. He has his place but is not an auto include.

I'm starting to see 3 types of lists I like for grey knights.

A paladin heavy with draigo... Aka draigo star.
Purifiers, Crowe and a brother captain/captain Stern in a landraider.
And the list I posted above in my batrep.

Each list has gmndk in it still. Each list can be shrunk to get into a soup if I wanted.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/01 05:39:20


Post by: Nairul


 Smotejob wrote:

I'm starting to see 3 types of lists I like for grey knights.


I can appreciate that.

Personally, though, I keep tinkering with variations on the same type of list. That's because my tastes are a bit pickier than yours, and I feel my competitive-ish lists NEED the following elements:

  • 13+ CP. So two battalions... either 6x Strike or 3x Strike and the loyal 32. Because GK are active in every phase we're quite CP hungry (not to mention all our over-costed stratagems). I'd feel like rubbish bringing 10 or less CP.

  • 2x GMNDK. One isn't enough for me. Some lists have ways of dealing with that Heed+Sanctuary combo (Null Zone, Agents of Vect, Jinx, etc.) but those tactics are only temporary. If they dealt with the first, very often the second won't be as easy.

  • BroCap && Ancient w/ Banner of Refining flame. I'm absolutely in love with this ~200pt. combo. You get a D6 Smite on the Deep Strike, plus the BroCap takes Purge Soul and has LD10 standing next to the Ancient.
    Last game my Stern's Purge Soul dealt SEVEN mortal wounds to a Voidraven because he rolled a 2 and I rolled a 6. Holy cow. I'm never leaving home without this combo.


  • Thus my lists kind of build themselves. The only question is how to satisfy Tactical Reserves for units/points on the table. I've experimented with Interceptor Squads, Stormhawks, Ven Dreads, Rhinos/Razorbacks. Taking a 195pt Guard Battalion (+5 units on the board) sure makes it easier... but I'm determined to come up with a PURE list that can get the job done. Here's my latest idea:

    Spoiler:

    2000 pts (14 CP)
    Battalion

    -Stern
    -Crowe
    -3x5 Strikes (3x Psilencer)
    -Paladin Ancient (Banner of Refining Flame)
    -Rhino

    Battalion

    -GMNDK
    -GMNDK (Warlord, First to the Frazzle Dazzle)
    -3x5 Strikes (3x Psilencer)

    Vanguard

    -Techmarine
    -Ven Dread (Twin Las, Twin Auto)
    -Ven Dread (Combat Weapon, Heavy Plasma Cannon)
    -Ven Dread (Combat Weapon, Heavy Plasma Cannon)


    Since our Ven Dreads cost extra for being Psykers, I don't quite like the idea of making ALL THREE into back-line shooty Dreads (often wasting the Psychic potential of two). Why not footslog them with a Techmarine escort? Walk up the field & Smite things. Sit on objectives. Threaten Knights in melee. Pop smoke if there's nothing good to shoot their Plasma at. @133 points they're not much more expensive than a Strike Squad yet Dreads are more durable and more threatening.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/01 06:23:49


    Post by: Smotejob


    I really don't like the loyal 32. Every time I bring it I just feel empty, like something inside me died. I'm tired of it. Want my gk to hold their own. Just gk need more of those cp.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/01 21:53:47


    Post by: Nairul


    Another interesting tidbit — at 19 points the Heavy Incinerator is no longer a rubbish option on the GMNDK, but it's not an auto-include either. Once the GMNDK has gone down to his middle wounds profile, the Heavy Incinerator starts to outperform the Gatling Psilencer in damage output. Also Heavy Incinerator beats Gatling Psilencer when shooting at units that have an inherent -1 to hit aura. Also Heavy Incinerator best in Overwatch... but if someone's charging your GMNDK then you're smiling already =)

    Heavy Psycannon is still an auto-include.

    I'll still take Gatling Psilencer/Heavy Psycannon by default, just to have the option of Psychic Onslaught stratagem. Also the extra range can come in handy. But if shaving off 1 point could buy me an extra Psilencer on one of my PAGK squads, then I'll consider "downgrading" the Gatling Psilencer to a Heavy Incinerator.

    Relevant Graphs
    Assume GMNDK at middle profile (3+ BS) and has moved (-1 to hit).
    Spoiler:




    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/03 17:38:41


    Post by: Elric Greywolf


     Nairul wrote:
    Another interesting tidbit — at 19 points the Heavy Incinerator is no longer a rubbish option on the GMNDK, but it's not an auto-include either. Once the GMNDK has gone down to his middle wounds profile, the Heavy Incinerator starts to outperform the Gatling Psilencer in damage output. Also Heavy Incinerator beats Gatling Psilencer when shooting at units that have an inherent -1 to hit aura. Also Heavy Incinerator best in Overwatch... but if someone's charging your GMNDK then you're smiling already =)

    Heavy Psycannon is still an auto-include.

    I'll still take Gatling Psilencer/Heavy Psycannon by default, just to have the option of Psychic Onslaught stratagem. Also the extra range can come in handy. But if shaving off 1 point could buy me an extra Psilencer on one of my PAGK squads, then I'll consider "downgrading" the Gatling Psilencer to a Heavy Incinerator.

    Relevant Graphs
    Assume GMNDK at middle profile (3+ BS) and has moved (-1 to hit).
    Spoiler:




    I'm considering the NDK with incinerator. Cheaper platform for same damage output with the gun. I've got three models, I can take 1-2 or 2-1 depending on points.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/03 21:03:28


    Post by: Nairul


     Elric Greywolf wrote:


    I'm considering the NDK with incinerator. Cheaper platform for same damage output with the gun. I've got three models, I can take 1-2 or 2-1 depending on points.


    Interesting! You've inspired me to crunch some more numbers and explore this age-old question of GMDNK vs NDK, which I thought had been solved (but maybe not?).


    (1) The NDK with only H.Incinerator is obviously ~50% the shooting output of a typical 2-gun GMNDK, taking into account variable wound profiles. Also an unbuffed NDK has ~50% the melee output of a GMNDK (because they score about half the hits). This information shouldn't be new to anybody. Therefore since NDK is roughly half the overall damage output of a GMNDK ... but way more than half (~75%) the point cost... it's hard to see the benefit of taking NDK over GMNDK.

    (2) But I've never thought to add Draigo's aura into the equation, which wouldn't be hard to pull off because the NDK bases are so large that if they made a 9" charge you could angle them to be within 6" of a nearby Draigo (who presumably Deep Strike'd or Gated nearby)

    Shooting: Of course, nothing changes if you give the NDK only an H.Incinerator. But why stop there? If you add a Heavy Psycannon w/ reroll hits... suddenly the NDK offers ~85% the shooting output of a GMNDK. That's not bad! Here the NDK actually beats the GMNDK on points efficiency.
    Melee: With Draigo's aura you get ~73% the hits, and therefore ~73% the damage. So that pretty much brings the NDK up-to-par with it's base point cost being ~75% that of a GMNDK.
    Combine Shooting and Melee together, and the NDK w/ Draigo's Aura actually outputs a bit more damage-per-point than his GMNDK counterpart. That's pretty cool!

    (3) However, snapping back to reality... is the NDK's slightly-more-efficient damage output worth it? Considering you lose all these other cool features...

    5++ vs. 4++
    1 cast vs. 2 cast
    No aura vs. Reroll 1's
    No Character vs. Character <--- This one is a big deal, I think. We lose the Heroic Intervention opportunity. And more importantly, we lose the opportunity for 1CP "Only In Death Does Duty End" when they die. Next to Heed, I think that stratagem is one of the best in our Codex, and it synergizes REALLY well with GMNDK. Makes me feel like a Ynaari player lol.

    TLDR Even with Draigo nearby I'm still leaning towards GMNDK>NDK for all the reasons listed in #3. But If you're heart set on taking NDK(s) then it seems the best way to run them would be H.Incinerator + H.Psycannon with Draigo nearby.
    I really don't see the benefit in taking them with only H. Incinerator, since H.Psycannon is really quite amazing even at BS 3+.




    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/04 00:50:34


    Post by: Karol


    Is there a list for GK that works without IG or strikes? Just terminators and paladins, with maybe one NDK and some rhinos?


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/04 01:30:12


    Post by: Leo_the_Rat


    Why would you want rhinos? Models in terminator armor can't ride in them.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/04 03:26:19


    Post by: Smotejob


    Karol wrote:
    Is there a list for GK that works without IG or strikes? Just terminators and paladins, with maybe one NDK and some rhinos?


    You can take troop terminators, however, they are going to die terrible deaths. they are still over costed for what they do. Terminator armor is meant to be a bullet sponge, but they just dont stand up to all the firepower that is out there. Paladins do it a bit more efficiently for the number of wounds they have for +8 points.

    if you want to generate command points? then bring strike squads. if you want to go outside the dex then there are options. the cheapest being the guard. Another option is the sisters... just dont forget to bathe your brothers in the sisters blood before the battle.

    Space Marines and Skiitari are lower on the priority list for us. Marines do what we do, die... but they do it cheaper. Intercessors are now cheaper than our strikes and may be decent objective holders. I dont have experience with skiitari.

    Honestly, I've been doing some trial runs with lists online with a buddy of mine. Strikes are not half bad when you have scary stuff on the board and can hold them in reserve for 1 turn. 3x well placed strike squads with a draigo nearby will pick up like 25ish guard. they are good at clearing the back field.




    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Battle scribe update....
    Battle scribe says our twin autocannon is now 30pts. However, I don't see that new price in chapter approved. I do see it in the forgeworld section for astartes. Is this correct? It's now 30pts?


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/04 17:05:14


    Post by: Leo_the_Rat


    I have a list that I think I like except I'm not sure about 1 aspect. It has a storm talon in it and I keep thinking that I could do better. I like the talon's speed and it's ability to ignore terrain. I also like its strafing rule. I don't like it lack of manuverability due to hypersonic and I don't like the -1 to hit with its heavy weapons.

    Here is the list:

    ++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Imperium - Imperial Knights) [9 PL, 174pts] ++

    + No Force Org Slot +

    Household Choice: House Mortan, Questor Imperialis

    + Lord of War [9 PL, 174pts] +

    Armiger Warglaives [9 PL, 174pts]
    . Armiger Warglaive [9 PL, 174pts]: Character (Knight Lance), Heirloom: Armour of the Sainted Ion, Meltagun [14pts], Warlord, Warlord Trait: Ion Bulwark

    ++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Grey Knights) [64 PL, 1070pts] ++

    + HQ [26 PL, 428pts] +

    Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 248pts]: Dreadfist [25pts], Heavy Incinerator [19pts], Heavy Psycannon [24pts], Nemesis Greatsword [10pts], Sanctuary

    Lord Kaldor Draigo [12 PL, 180pts]: Hammerhand, Sanctuary

    + Troops [21 PL, 321pts] +

    Strike Squad [7 PL, 107pts]: Gate of Infinity
    . 3x Grey Knight (Falchions) [63pts]: 3x Storm Bolter [6pts]
    . Grey Knight (Psilencer) [23pts]: Psilencer [4pts]
    . Grey Knight Justicar [21pts]: Storm bolter [2pts], Two Nemesis Falchions

    Strike Squad [7 PL, 107pts]: Gate of Infinity
    . 2x Grey Knight (Halberd) [42pts]: 2x Storm Bolter [4pts]
    . Grey Knight (Psilencer) [23pts]: Psilencer [4pts]
    . Grey Knight (Sword) [21pts]: Storm Bolter [2pts]
    . Grey Knight Justicar [21pts]: Storm bolter [2pts], Two Nemesis Falchions

    Strike Squad [7 PL, 107pts]: Gate of Infinity
    . 3x Grey Knight (Falchions) [63pts]: 3x Storm Bolter [6pts]
    . Grey Knight (Psilencer) [23pts]: Psilencer [4pts]
    . Grey Knight Justicar [21pts]: Storm bolter [2pts], Two Nemesis Falchions

    + Fast Attack [8 PL, 117pts] +

    Interceptor Squad [8 PL, 117pts]: Vortex of Doom
    . Grey Knight (Psilencer) [25pts]: Psilencer [4pts]
    . 3x Interceptor (Falchions) [69pts]: 3x Storm Bolter [6pts]
    . Interceptor Justicar [23pts]: Storm bolter [2pts], Two Nemesis Falchions

    + Flyer [9 PL, 204pts] +

    Stormtalon Gunship [9 PL, 204pts]: Twin Assault Cannon [44pts], Two Lascannons [50pts]

    ++ Total: [73 PL, 1244pts] ++

    Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

    Any C&C would be appreciated especially in regards to the talon. As a side note my FLGS plays at the 1250 level.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/04 21:09:00


    Post by: Nairul


    Leo_the_Rat wrote:


    Any C&C would be appreciated especially in regards to the talon. As a side note my FLGS plays at the 1250 level.


    Eh, if you're wanting to take a plane I see very little benefit in taking the Stormtalon over the Stormhawk. Consider for 3 points more you could buy a Stormhawk which brings the same guns PLUS a freaking Typhoon Missile Launcher. So even IF the opponent doesn't have FLY units the math simply favors the Stormhawk in terms of damage output.

    Math also favors the Stormhawk in terms of survivability...
    Stormhawk is T7 vs. Talon's T6
    Stormhawk's "Reroll save rolls of 1" is kind of nifty.

    In hovermode the Talon comes close to evening-out the damage difference... but then you've lost your -1 to Hit and that's a big deal. It's clear GW designed these two Astartes flyers to be "twins" of eachother where one specializes in anti-FLY and the other in anti-ground. But I don't know why they thought to give three guns to one and two guns to the other. Then they make the one with only two guns cost MORE points!

    And in case you're considering the Stormhawk — I actually prefer the Icarus Stormcannon/Typhoon ML setup. Icarus got a big points drop and now is much more points-efficient than a Las-Talon. Most FLY units are T7 or lower, so the Icarus does work.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/05 02:11:01


    Post by: Leo_the_Rat


    I wasn't set on a flyer. I was looking for some anti-armor punch. I like the twin assault cannon with 2 lascannon configuration but I just have the feeling that I could do better with something else for the same amount of points. I could be wrong but that's why I'm asking for help.

    I hadn't considered the hawk but I'll certainly look into it. Thanks for the input.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/07 01:03:02


    Post by: Slayer-Fan123


    Leo_the_Rat wrote:
    Why would you want rhinos? Models in terminator armor can't ride in them.

    My guess is to tie up enemy shooting via charging. It's actually something Rhinos are good at, as there's basically nothing that can harm them in overwatch and dangerous shooting against even Paladins will be held up for at minimum a turn.

    Unless the unit has fly of course, in which case oh well.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/07 20:20:35


    Post by: Quickjager


    Leo_the_Rat wrote:
    I wasn't set on a flyer. I was looking for some anti-armor punch. I like the twin assault cannon with 2 lascannon configuration but I just have the feeling that I could do better with something else for the same amount of points. I could be wrong but that's why I'm asking for help.

    I hadn't considered the hawk but I'll certainly look into it. Thanks for the input.


    If you're looking for some AT, maybe one of the cheaper Dreadnoughts with a Lascannon and ML. It isn't good but it can pop astral aim to ignore LoS and be perfectly safe behind some LoS blocking objects.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/07 21:48:14


    Post by: Leo_the_Rat


    I have considered that but I just don't trust my dice to get astral aim working all the time. Just for an example, I played a game last weekend and I blew at least 3 rolls to get smite to work and even rolled snake eyes when attempting to cast an ability with Draigo in 3 straight games. This in a 3 round event.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/08 05:31:44


    Post by: jeffersonian000


    Leo_the_Rat wrote:
    I have considered that but I just don't trust my dice to get astral aim working all the time. Just for an example, I played a game last weekend and I blew at least 3 rolls to get smite to work and even rolled snake eyes when attempting to cast an ability with Draigo in 3 straight games. This in a 3 round event.

    Stop using rounded dice. The chances of rolling a 1 on rounded dice is around 27%, is showed in a probability study a year or so ago.

    Start using square edge dice.

    SJ


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/08 13:29:23


    Post by: Leo_the_Rat


    Interesting. I never knew that. Can you link the study?


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/08 20:30:25


    Post by: jeffersonian000


    Leo_the_Rat wrote:
    Interesting. I never knew that. Can you link the study?

    A regular poster on Bolter and Chainsword is a professor at the University of Arizona. He posted his results over there. It was a class project to roll 1 million dice 1 million times each, with the class keeping track of each roll of each dice. They found that square edged dice with applied markings rolled near 16.666~%, while rounded edge/corner with drilled pips tending to roll 1’s at over 17-27% of the time. To find out why, he had the materials physics department cut the offending dice to determine what was causing the uneven outcome. They found that the 1’s side was in most cases heavier than the other side’s, but that the rounded edges and corners did not provide enough resistance to stop with the 1’s side down. Due to it becoming an inverse pendulum when rolled, these types of dice tend to stop rolling with the heavier side up more often.

    He did reach out to the manufacturers, and was informed that the reason why non-casino dice are rounded is to allow them to save enough material to cast a 7th dice out of every 6, which saves them on manufacturing costs. Apparently, this was a known problem within the industry, hence why casino dice are sharp edged with printed pips. If I remember correctly, he said Chessex had some of the better balanced dice.

    Since I read that study, I switched to square edged printed dice. My favorites for 40k are the GW Imperial Knight dice, which are square edged and printed, as well as being a GW licensed product.

    I’d post a link, but I haven’t been on BnC in a while.

    SJ


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/09 00:37:11


    Post by: Slayer-Fan123


     jeffersonian000 wrote:
    Leo_the_Rat wrote:
    Interesting. I never knew that. Can you link the study?

    A regular poster on Bolter and Chainsword is a professor at the University of Arizona. He posted his results over there. It was a class project to roll 1 million dice 1 million times each, with the class keeping track of each roll of each dice. They found that square edged dice with applied markings rolled near 16.666~%, while rounded edge/corner with drilled pips tending to roll 1’s at over 17-27% of the time. To find out why, he had the materials physics department cut the offending dice to determine what was causing the uneven outcome. They found that the 1’s side was in most cases heavier than the other side’s, but that the rounded edges and corners did not provide enough resistance to stop with the 1’s side down. Due to it becoming an inverse pendulum when rolled, these types of dice tend to stop rolling with the heavier side up more often.

    He did reach out to the manufacturers, and was informed that the reason why non-casino dice are rounded is to allow them to save enough material to cast a 7th dice out of every 6, which saves them on manufacturing costs. Apparently, this was a known problem within the industry, hence why casino dice are sharp edged with printed pips. If I remember correctly, he said Chessex had some of the better balanced dice.

    Since I read that study, I switched to square edged printed dice. My favorites for 40k are the GW Imperial Knight dice, which are square edged and printed, as well as being a GW licensed product.

    I’d post a link, but I haven’t been on BnC in a while.

    SJ

    I remember seeing the study done but I never had time to look at the science behind why. I thank you for the general summary.

    It's also good to know what dice brands are considered more balanced as well.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/09 12:43:05


    Post by: momerathe


    jeffersonian000 wrote:
    Leo_the_Rat wrote:
    Interesting. I never knew that. Can you link the study?

    A regular poster on Bolter and Chainsword is a professor at the University of Arizona. He posted his results over there. It was a class project to roll 1 million dice 1 million times each, with the class keeping track of each roll of each dice. They found that square edged dice with applied markings rolled near 16.666~%, while rounded edge/corner with drilled pips tending to roll 1’s at over 17-27% of the time. To find out why, he had the materials physics department cut the offending dice to determine what was causing the uneven outcome. They found that the 1’s side was in most cases heavier than the other side’s, but that the rounded edges and corners did not provide enough resistance to stop with the 1’s side down. Due to it becoming an inverse pendulum when rolled, these types of dice tend to stop rolling with the heavier side up more often.

    He did reach out to the manufacturers, and was informed that the reason why non-casino dice are rounded is to allow them to save enough material to cast a 7th dice out of every 6, which saves them on manufacturing costs. Apparently, this was a known problem within the industry, hence why casino dice are sharp edged with printed pips. If I remember correctly, he said Chessex had some of the better balanced dice.

    Since I read that study, I switched to square edged printed dice. My favorites for 40k are the GW Imperial Knight dice, which are square edged and printed, as well as being a GW licensed product.

    I’d post a link, but I haven’t been on BnC in a while.

    SJ


    Leo_the_Rat wrote:Thanks. I think I found a similar study right here on DakkaDakka.

    https://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/That%27s_How_I_Roll_-_A_Scientific_Analysis_of_Dice


    That horrifying! I am horrified! 29% chance of a 1 is *insanely* high.

    I need to buy all new dice.




    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/09 12:57:36


    Post by: Leo_the_Rat


    Maybe the dice issue is what's holding us all back. If we all started using casino/squared edge dice then we'd be winning all the time. /sarcasm


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/09 13:36:48


    Post by: momerathe


    I think *any* 40k player should be horrified by that - I wasn't thinking purely form a GK perspective.

    That said, as an army that leans on 2+ and 3+ saves...



    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/09 15:41:51


    Post by: lash92


    Hey folks,
    I´m interested in allying in some GK to my BA and would like to here your opinion.
    Normally I play BA + AdMech and while I generally like AdMech I feel like they don´t work that good together.
    So I´m thinking about kind of an off beat BA-GK soup which relies on a one-two punch.

    Let me quickly preface, that I play in a restricted tournament series, with the following restrictions:
    - 1750 pts
    - max 2 detachments (1 mandatory batallion)
    - max 2 times the same units (except troops)
    - max 1 LoW
    So please keep this in mind

    So a quick draft for a list I made would be:

    GK Batallion
    - GMNDK
    - Captain Stern
    - 3 x 5 Strikes
    - Ancient

    BA Batallion
    - Smash Cpt
    - Sanguinor
    - 3x5 Intercessors for durable obj. holding
    - Sang Ancient with 5+++ FnP Banner
    - 10 Sanguinary Guard

    Turn 1:
    - give the GMNDK 2++ and get him in front of enemy
    - Advance SG + Ancient up the board
    - Sanguinor + Smash Cpt either advance as well or in reserve
    So the enemy has two durable targets in front of him which he must somehow get rid off

    Turn 2:
    - the rest comes on the board, including cpt + ancient for big smite and this other MW spell which uses LD since he is LD 10

    This list is about 1690 pts atm and just a first draft.
    Would like to hear some feedback on how you rate my idea.

    If anyone else has some experience regarding GK + Blood Angels (and hopefully not just 3x5 scouts + smash cpts ;P) please feel free to share them!


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/11 20:43:02


    Post by: psipso


     lash92 wrote:
    Hey folks,
    I´m interested in allying in some GK to my BA and would like to here your opinion.
    Normally I play BA + AdMech and while I generally like AdMech I feel like they don´t work that good together.
    So I´m thinking about kind of an off beat BA-GK soup which relies on a one-two punch.

    Let me quickly preface, that I play in a restricted tournament series, with the following restrictions:
    - 1750 pts
    - max 2 detachments (1 mandatory batallion)
    - max 2 times the same units (except troops)
    - max 1 LoW
    So please keep this in mind

    So a quick draft for a list I made would be:

    GK Batallion
    - GMNDK
    - Captain Stern
    - 3 x 5 Strikes
    - Ancient

    BA Batallion
    - Smash Cpt
    - Sanguinor
    - 3x5 Intercessors for durable obj. holding
    - Sang Ancient with 5+++ FnP Banner
    - 10 Sanguinary Guard

    Turn 1:
    - give the GMNDK 2++ and get him in front of enemy
    - Advance SG + Ancient up the board
    - Sanguinor + Smash Cpt either advance as well or in reserve
    So the enemy has two durable targets in front of him which he must somehow get rid off

    Turn 2:
    - the rest comes on the board, including cpt + ancient for big smite and this other MW spell which uses LD since he is LD 10

    This list is about 1690 pts atm and just a first draft.
    Would like to hear some feedback on how you rate my idea.

    If anyone else has some experience regarding GK + Blood Angels (and hopefully not just 3x5 scouts + smash cpts ;P) please feel free to share them!


    yeah pretty much you pack some of the few tools that GK got. Is pretty much self explanatory. There is only one comment for the combination banner + brother capt. Consider that smite automatically target the closest enemy unit and will have only 12 " range. Also smite happens before shooting and combat and you deep strike at 9 ". If your adversary screen his goodies half well it could be challenging to make the smite land wherever you want. In this case you pretty much will need to clear the screens before to DP in an effective way the banner. Luckily you got stirkes wit SB. You can always DP at turn 2 the strikes and clear the screen. Then on turn 3 DP the banner in front of the goodies for a good yummy smite. Sometimes even your target will charge the strikes making it even easier. However this will held the bro captain and the banner in DP till turn 3. If you want to pull reliable this at turn 2 then you have the option to swap the strikes for interceptors. But then you will have 4 CP less.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/14 17:07:49


    Post by: Leo_the_Rat


    Maybe it's just me but I can't see a way out of this morass. My FLGS plays at 1250 points. Unfortunately, a lot of people in my meta are playing Tau.

    I don't see how to put out enough quality shots to damage their Riptides and still deal with the rest of their units, mostly due to their shield drone rules. Not to mention the Tau's ridiculous marker light ability (it's been explained to me that the marker light hits on a 2+ and then my opponent pays 1 CP to make 1 marker light to add d3 additional plus markers on my nearby units as well). It may be that the people who were telling me this were combining rules but even then it all seems so futile to try to fight with what we have.

    /rant


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/14 22:16:04


    Post by: psipso


    Leo_the_Rat wrote:
    Maybe it's just me but I can't see a way out of this morass. My FLGS plays at 1250 points. Unfortunately, a lot of people in my meta are playing Tau.

    I don't see how to put out enough quality shots to damage their Riptides and still deal with the rest of their units, mostly due to their shield drone rules. Not to mention the Tau's ridiculous marker light ability (it's been explained to me that the marker light hits on a 2+ and then my opponent pays 1 CP to make 1 marker light to add d3 additional plus markers on my nearby units as well). It may be that the people who were telling me this were combining rules but even then it all seems so futile to try to fight with what we have.

    /rant


    Interceptors with psilencer are quite efficient on killing drones. Also a well placed vortex of doom can potentially murder a whole bunch of drones. Consider that the shield drones that the riptide can bring are considered as a separated unit and needs to be at 3" from the riptide in order to use saviour protocols. So in average 2 MW into the riptide and 2 NW into the drones. Assuming that the riptides 2 Mw are transfer to the drones, we are talking about 2.66 dead drones on average, which are the ones that the riptide can buy. And the numberr of dead drones escalates quickly if there are more drones units at 3" of the riptide.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/15 16:11:22


    Post by: Elric Greywolf


    psipso wrote:


    Also a well placed vortex of doom can potentially murder a whole bunch of drones.


    This is the one good thing that always happens in my games against Tau. Tau LOVES to castle, usually with a Riptide on an edge...and I LOVE to shunt forward and hit six units with mortals.

    Unfortunately, even killing six drones in the Psychic phase isn't enough to make charging GKI into T'au Sept overwatch very enticing....


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/15 20:02:09


    Post by: psipso


     Elric Greywolf wrote:


    Unfortunately, even killing six drones in the Psychic phase isn't enough to make charging GKI into T'au Sept overwatch very enticing....


    I've found that you do need a tanky unit to try to charge first against shooty juicy targets like IK, LR gunlines, Riptides, hellbasters, etc... Otherwise is suicidal. I never charge first or only with interceptors and strikes. I use them only for clearing screen, provide objective secure, psychic support and provide fire support to the stars heavy units: GMDK, HQ's and paladins. When I attempt a charge I use to have at least a GMDK, Draigo or a unit of paladins close to my warlord who has first to the fray plus maybe with a semi heavy unit like apothecary and potentially a banner. Then I try the charge first with the tanky units if they fail then with the semi-heavy unit. If that fails too, then I consider the charge as a failure and I don't try with the rest. However to fail a charge of 9" with 2 units and first to the fray It has less than 30% chances that it happens. To succeed with at least any of these two it has better chances than a 3+ which is quite reliable. And the whole operation only happens against juicy game-changing targets which chaff around have been cleared by interceptors or strikes the previous turns.




    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/21 11:34:54


    Post by: Spartacus


    Interesting Beta-Rule coming, previewed in the leak of next months WD:

    https://imgur.com/a/3YEDg58

    Bolter Discipline:

    Instead of the normal rules for Rapid Fire, all bolter weapons fired by Loyal/Chaos ADEPTUS ASTARTES units may rapid fire at maximum range if:

    -Target is within half range (like normal)
    -Unit was stationary in the movement phase
    -Unit is TERMINATORS/BIKER/VEHICLE

    Storm Bolters, HUrricane bolters, Relic Bolters etc all count, as long as they are rapid fire.

    (paraphrased)

    Looks like a decent buff to all Marine type armies, but certainly for the GK codex. There aren't many units that aren't positively affected by it.

    Edit: I also enjoy their use of keywords to selectively buff things that certainly needed it. Bodes well for future beta rules, rather than a ham-fisted shotgun approach.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/21 15:43:47


    Post by: Audustum


    Spartacus wrote:
    Interesting Beta-Rule coming, previewed in the leak of next months WD:

    https://imgur.com/a/3YEDg58

    Bolter Discipline:

    Instead of the normal rules for Rapid Fire, all bolter weapons fired by Loyal/Chaos ADEPTUS ASTARTES units may rapid fire at maximum range if:

    -Target is within half range (like normal)
    -Unit was stationary in the movement phase
    -Unit is TERMINATORS/BIKER/VEHICLE

    Storm Bolters, HUrricane bolters, Relic Bolters etc all count, as long as they are rapid fire.

    (paraphrased)

    Looks like a decent buff to all Marine type armies, but certainly for the GK codex. There aren't many units that aren't positively affected by it.

    Edit: I also enjoy their use of keywords to selectively buff things that certainly needed it. Bodes well for future beta rules, rather than a ham-fisted shotgun approach.


    It's a buff but I'm not sure it's much of one for us. Due to our Deep Striking and shunting, plus our high desire to be in melee, we're usually in Rapid Fire range anyway.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/21 18:19:05


    Post by: Elric Greywolf


    Audustum wrote:
    Spartacus wrote:
    Interesting Beta-Rule coming, previewed in the leak of next months WD:

    https://imgur.com/a/3YEDg58

    Bolter Discipline:

    Instead of the normal rules for Rapid Fire, all bolter weapons fired by Loyal/Chaos ADEPTUS ASTARTES units may rapid fire at maximum range if:

    -Target is within half range (like normal)
    -Unit was stationary in the movement phase
    -Unit is TERMINATORS/BIKER/VEHICLE

    Storm Bolters, HUrricane bolters, Relic Bolters etc all count, as long as they are rapid fire.

    (paraphrased)

    Looks like a decent buff to all Marine type armies, but certainly for the GK codex. There aren't many units that aren't positively affected by it.

    Edit: I also enjoy their use of keywords to selectively buff things that certainly needed it. Bodes well for future beta rules, rather than a ham-fisted shotgun approach.


    It's a buff but I'm not sure it's much of one for us. Due to our Deep Striking and shunting, plus our high desire to be in melee, we're usually in Rapid Fire range anyway.


    I've been taking a battalion of three min+psilencer GKSS. At least one of these units sits on an objective for the entire game (because SOMEONE has to start on the board in order to Gate my GMDK) (and the GKI have Vortex or HH).
    In my last game, I had two units on a backfield objective. The entire game they were taking potshots at various characters or units on other objectives that were outside RF. My units didn't move. If this rule had been in play, I would've been getting 32 bolter shots instead of 16; which would've broken through that damn 3++ on the Woof Captain on turn 4 instead of turn 5, which in turn would've let me shoot at a different unit and save Voldus contesting an objective....
    You see how it goes. There's a small but significant ripple effect here.

    We don't have bad matchups against other Marines. We have close matchups. Maybe this sort of change will shift us to having GOOD matchups against Marines, and merely CLOSE matches against Eldar, Guard, and Tau, rather than bad ones.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/21 18:32:35


    Post by: Audustum


     Elric Greywolf wrote:
    Audustum wrote:
    Spartacus wrote:
    Interesting Beta-Rule coming, previewed in the leak of next months WD:

    https://imgur.com/a/3YEDg58

    Bolter Discipline:

    Instead of the normal rules for Rapid Fire, all bolter weapons fired by Loyal/Chaos ADEPTUS ASTARTES units may rapid fire at maximum range if:

    -Target is within half range (like normal)
    -Unit was stationary in the movement phase
    -Unit is TERMINATORS/BIKER/VEHICLE

    Storm Bolters, HUrricane bolters, Relic Bolters etc all count, as long as they are rapid fire.

    (paraphrased)

    Looks like a decent buff to all Marine type armies, but certainly for the GK codex. There aren't many units that aren't positively affected by it.

    Edit: I also enjoy their use of keywords to selectively buff things that certainly needed it. Bodes well for future beta rules, rather than a ham-fisted shotgun approach.


    It's a buff but I'm not sure it's much of one for us. Due to our Deep Striking and shunting, plus our high desire to be in melee, we're usually in Rapid Fire range anyway.


    I've been taking a battalion of three min+psilencer GKSS. At least one of these units sits on an objective for the entire game (because SOMEONE has to start on the board in order to Gate my GMDK) (and the GKI have Vortex or HH).
    In my last game, I had two units on a backfield objective. The entire game they were taking potshots at various characters or units on other objectives that were outside RF. My units didn't move. If this rule had been in play, I would've been getting 32 bolter shots instead of 16; which would've broken through that damn 3++ on the Woof Captain on turn 4 instead of turn 5, which in turn would've let me shoot at a different unit and save Voldus contesting an objective....
    You see how it goes. There's a small but significant ripple effect here.

    We don't have bad matchups against other Marines. We have close matchups. Maybe this sort of change will shift us to having GOOD matchups against Marines, and merely CLOSE matches against Eldar, Guard, and Tau, rather than bad ones.


    I'm not saying there's no benefit, but it's going to be pretty marginal. Especially in a competitive skew, when your backfield should be getting held by Infantry with Mortars (from an Astra Militarum battalion) or Rangers (from an AdMech one). You may also have Castellan/Helverins who can hold them while still shooting effectively. This would leave your GK doing what they're in theory supposed to do: hit things in the face.

    If you're staying mono, there's a marginal benefit. I'm not sold on it being huge though, as I said. Also, is there a typo in your post? You don't need to worry about having boots on the ground for GoI. Your guy sitting around waiting to GoI county as boots on the ground.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/21 23:47:31


    Post by: Elric Greywolf


    Audustum wrote:
    You don't need to worry about having boots on the ground for GoI. Your guy sitting around waiting to GoI county as boots on the ground.


    GMDK has Sanctuary. GKI has Hammerhand or Vortex. That leaves a GKSS to have Gate, so they have to start on the board next to the GMDK so that the power can be cast.
    Nothing to do with Boots on the Ground or Sudden Death.

    Sometimes your Snipers can't be placed on the objective, due to terrain. For example, in that game I spoke about earlier, there was one objective in my deployment zone, on the 36" line. In the center of the field was a HUGE piece of LoS-blocking terrain.

    I chose to deploy my six Arquebuses so that they could actually see something on T1, instead of nothing. And they ended up killing the scary DA Libby (who had 2 debuff powers that I know were going to shoot at my Gallant).

    Sometimes, the PAGK is the best choice to hold an objective. It always depends.

    And really, GKSS are NOT supposed to hit things in the face. With falchions, a min unit has 9 to 11 force attacks (depending on if you have a psilencer in there or not). Let's split the difference, call it 10, and that gives you 6-7 hits and 3-4 wounds on GEQ or MEQ.

    That's pretty terrible. They are MUCH better at shooting.
    And in addition, PAGK have the PA save--against anything that is TRULY cc oriented, they melt just as easily as their Astartes brothers.

    Strike Squad melee is a nice tiny buff that turns the unit into a jack-of-all-trades.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/22 02:51:07


    Post by: Slayer-Fan123


    Spartacus wrote:
    Interesting Beta-Rule coming, previewed in the leak of next months WD:

    https://imgur.com/a/3YEDg58

    Bolter Discipline:

    Instead of the normal rules for Rapid Fire, all bolter weapons fired by Loyal/Chaos ADEPTUS ASTARTES units may rapid fire at maximum range if:

    -Target is within half range (like normal)
    -Unit was stationary in the movement phase
    -Unit is TERMINATORS/BIKER/VEHICLE

    Storm Bolters, HUrricane bolters, Relic Bolters etc all count, as long as they are rapid fire.

    (paraphrased)

    Looks like a decent buff to all Marine type armies, but certainly for the GK codex. There aren't many units that aren't positively affected by it.

    Edit: I also enjoy their use of keywords to selectively buff things that certainly needed it. Bodes well for future beta rules, rather than a ham-fisted shotgun approach.

    While it helps Terminators a fair amount, Paladins will still be better.

    Also since it works with Relics, Fury Of Deimos is basically a D1 Psilencer at 36" range. Not exactly a terrible deal.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/22 08:03:21


    Post by: Audustum


     Elric Greywolf wrote:
    Audustum wrote:
    You don't need to worry about having boots on the ground for GoI. Your guy sitting around waiting to GoI county as boots on the ground.


    GMDK has Sanctuary. GKI has Hammerhand or Vortex. That leaves a GKSS to have Gate, so they have to start on the board next to the GMDK so that the power can be cast.
    Nothing to do with Boots on the Ground or Sudden Death.



    We just had some confusion here. The way you wrote your original post, it seemed you thought GoI interacted with 'Reinforcements' in ways it didn't. We're actually on the same page.


    Sometimes your Snipers can't be placed on the objective, due to terrain. For example, in that game I spoke about earlier, there was one objective in my deployment zone, on the 36" line. In the center of the field was a HUGE piece of LoS-blocking terrain.

    I chose to deploy my six Arquebuses so that they could actually see something on T1, instead of nothing. And they ended up killing the scary DA Libby (who had 2 debuff powers that I know were going to shoot at my Gallant).


    Such a niche scenario is exactly in line with my 'probably a buff but not a huge one' statement, so yeah, there you go.


    Sometimes, the PAGK is the best choice to hold an objective. It always depends.

    And really, GKSS are NOT supposed to hit things in the face. With falchions, a min unit has 9 to 11 force attacks (depending on if you have a psilencer in there or not). Let's split the difference, call it 10, and that gives you 6-7 hits and 3-4 wounds on GEQ or MEQ.

    That's pretty terrible. They are MUCH better at shooting.
    And in addition, PAGK have the PA save--against anything that is TRULY cc oriented, they melt just as easily as their Astartes brothers.

    Strike Squad melee is a nice tiny buff that turns the unit into a jack-of-all-trades.


    Now the misunderstanding is going the other way. PAGK are not good, objectively, and shouldn't really be taken. They're good for Grey Knights, sure, but they're not good in the world at large. If you're trying to optimize with Grey Knights, you should be largely limited to GMDK's, Apothecaries and maybe Voldus/Draigo. Something to fulfill the Slamguinus/Custodes role in the Imperium Trinity of CP-Battery/Knight-Shooting/Assault-Element.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/22 08:09:58


    Post by: wuestenfux


    With the new beta rule, how does your new shiny GK list (2000 pts) look like?


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/22 21:07:06


    Post by: Quickjager


    I don't really see a change for us... GK ideally should never be stationary, so the only infantry that truly benefit are Termies, specifically Paladins so that they can shoot units that are potentially blocking another units crucial movement path.

    Stormraven is nicer, so is the Crusader. I think the Crusader was the only LR really worth taking and this just kind of cements that.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/22 21:51:33


    Post by: Slayer-Fan123


    Indeed the new Bolt rule helps the regular Terminator, but they're still absurdly expensive compared to a Paladin, so it doesn't really help.

    I actually like the idea of Paladins now though. A unit of 5 with two Psilencers always has max shots now, and if you were going absurd MSU you can do units of just 3 dudes always getting max shots.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/23 04:02:50


    Post by: psipso


    Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
    Indeed the new Bolt rule helps the regular Terminator, but they're still absurdly expensive compared to a Paladin, so it doesn't really help.

    I actually like the idea of Paladins now though. A unit of 5 with two Psilencers always has max shots now, and if you were going absurd MSU you can do units of just 3 dudes always getting max shots.


    Maybe I'm wrong but:

    For every fivemodels in the unit, two Paladins may replace their storm bolter with an item from the Special
    Weapons list.


    I guess that means that a unit of 3 paladins cannot have any special weapon. Am I wrong?


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Quickjager wrote:
    I don't really see a change for us... GK ideally should never be stationary, so the only infantry that truly benefit are Termies, specifically Paladins so that they can shoot units that are potentially blocking another units crucial movement path.

    Stormraven is nicer, so is the Crusader. I think the Crusader was the only LR really worth taking and this just kind of cements that.


    Yes, I also think so. I see this bolter rule more as a buff for primaries intercessors and SM terminators. Intercessors has a 30" range bolter and they role use to be to stay stationary holding objectives. At least we got a secondary buff in terms of vehicles with hurricane bolters. LRC suddenly gets a threat range of 34". Also hurricane bolters Storm ravens will be more easily to shoot what they need to shoot without exposing themselves to rapid fire.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/23 04:31:44


    Post by: Spartacus


    Spoiler:
    psipso wrote:
    Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
    Indeed the new Bolt rule helps the regular Terminator, but they're still absurdly expensive compared to a Paladin, so it doesn't really help.

    I actually like the idea of Paladins now though. A unit of 5 with two Psilencers always has max shots now, and if you were going absurd MSU you can do units of just 3 dudes always getting max shots.


    Maybe I'm wrong but:

    For every fivemodels in the unit, two Paladins may replace their storm bolter with an item from the Special
    Weapons list.


    I guess that means that a unit of 3 paladins cannot have any special weapon. Am I wrong?


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Quickjager wrote:
    I don't really see a change for us... GK ideally should never be stationary, so the only infantry that truly benefit are Termies, specifically Paladins so that they can shoot units that are potentially blocking another units crucial movement path.

    Stormraven is nicer, so is the Crusader. I think the Crusader was the only LR really worth taking and this just kind of cements that.


    Yes, I also think so. I see this bolter rule more as a buff for primaries intercessors and SM terminators. Intercessors has a 30" range bolter and they role use to be to stay stationary holding objectives. At least we got a secondary buff in terms of vehicles with hurricane bolters. LRC suddenly gets a threat range of 34". Also hurricane bolters Storm ravens will be more easily to shoot what they need to shoot without exposing themselves to rapid fire.


    Yeah thats right, no special weapons for MSU Paladins.

    On another note, there was talk recently of playing GK as a blob with a Bro-Captain, and playing at arms length with 'Smite Artillery'. I was skeptical of the idea at first but with long range stormbolter fire now being a thing this could be made to work somewhat. Draigo for re-rolls and a 2++ GMDK as the distraction carnifex.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    "Smite Artillery" List

    GK Batt.

    Brother-Captain - Relic: Fury of Deimos (or Curiass)
    GMDK with both guns

    5x Terminator Squad
    5x Terminator Squad
    5x Strike Squad

    GK Vanguard.

    Draigo

    3x Paladin Squad
    3x Paladin Squad
    3x Paladin Squad

    Abuse cover for 1+ saves and advance as required. Strikes can sit on the home-plate objective if needed. Comes to just under 1500. I could see myself playing as is or mixing in 500 points of real artillery from IG/the Loyal 32. Could be a fun way to go all out Terminators like it was back in the good old days, without dying immediately.





    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/23 05:22:23


    Post by: Slayer-Fan123


    Exchanging those Terminators for more Strike squads would save points for more Paladins or Interceptors instead. Assuming you want pure of course.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/23 07:25:06


    Post by: Quickjager


    He wants to be able to move them and get the new bolter beta rule.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/23 09:05:57


    Post by: wuestenfux


    Hurricane bolters are even better now.
    But its a pity that GK have no access to the Ironclad Dread.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/23 14:44:03


    Post by: Slayer-Fan123


     Quickjager wrote:
    He wants to be able to move them and get the new bolter beta rule.

    The durability of Paladins still wins out over a couple more Storm Bolter shots, and really the new rule should be thought of as a supplement, rather than something to focus on.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/23 23:35:49


    Post by: Elric Greywolf


    So I was just running some numbers and discovered something interesting about Psybolt Ammo.

    Assume a 10-man squad, with all 40 shots, and in aura of a GM.
    Against GEQ, they get 13.8 wounds without PB, or 17.2 with.
    Against MEQ, they get 5.2 wounds without PB, or 10.3 with.

    Seems worth it to double your wounds against Marines. But is it worth 2CP to marginally bump your wounds up against MEQ?

    Seems like this strat is good against anything that changes the wound bracket, but not worth it against anything that DOESN'T.
    So, for example, going from wounds on 4s to wounds on 3s against Marines--you already have the 3s against Guard, so you don't need it.
    Or going from 6s to 5s against T8--that one is actually an impressive increase.

    So if your target is T4, T5, or T8, use it. If it's not, don't do it. (Unless you really need to knock those couple pesky wounds off a vehicle.)


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/24 02:04:59


    Post by: Quickjager


    Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
     Quickjager wrote:
    He wants to be able to move them and get the new bolter beta rule.

    The durability of Paladins still wins out over a couple more Storm Bolter shots, and really the new rule should be thought of as a supplement, rather than something to focus on.


    I agree, I'm just explaining what he is trying to do. You will never catch me with Termies that are not Pallies.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/24 02:06:57


    Post by: Smotejob


    Fact. It is most useful against t4,t5,t8 that has an armor save. It makes output against imperial knights (t8) from 1.7 unsaved wounds to 5.1 unsaved wounds assuming a reroll ones aura is nearby.

    4 psilencers with the same using psychic onslaught will do 6.1 on avg assuming they didn't move.

    A gmndk with psilencer + psycannon will do 6.2 using psychic onslaught and is the most efficient use of 2cp in this situation.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/24 02:39:08


    Post by: Spartacus


     Quickjager wrote:
    Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
     Quickjager wrote:
    He wants to be able to move them and get the new bolter beta rule.

    The durability of Paladins still wins out over a couple more Storm Bolter shots, and really the new rule should be thought of as a supplement, rather than something to focus on.


    I agree, I'm just explaining what he is trying to do. You will never catch me with Termies that are not Pallies.


    My reasoning for terminators over Strikes is as follows:

    1. I like skew lists. If I take a bunch of Strikes along with 3 units of Pallies, theres no way my opponent will send all his small arms fire against the 2+ saves of the Terminator suit guys. Its far more efficient to kill off Strikes. It was the cornerstone of the way I played 7th ed, when only AP2 stuff could really do work vs Terminators. Doesn't work quite as well in 8th with modifiers but the premise holds well enough.

    I would have gone with 3 units of Termies if the points allowed, but there was no way to fit into 1500 (my usual game size) without losing out on Paladins or the HQ's. Realistically, switching to Strikes for Troops would give me another 3 or 4 Paladins, and no extra smites. It also reduces the amount of storm bolter fire available at range. Doesn't seem like much of an impact compared to an additional 10 Terminator armoured bodies, given the focus of the list.

    2. I much prefer the look of Terminators over the power armour squat, sue me

    I know this will be crushed by Castellan soup etc. Clearly I'm not going for cut-throat optimisation, more just a trial of concept.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/24 02:43:19


    Post by: Slayer-Fan123


    Your 1st point makes the least amount of sense because the Terminators were just as bad, if not worse, in 7th.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/24 03:22:40


    Post by: Spartacus


    Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
    Your 1st point makes the least amount of sense because the Terminators were just as bad, if not worse, in 7th.


    I'd heartily disagree, at their 33ppm cost in 7th they were clearly superior to Strikes, especially so with the way the AP system worked.

    Even if they weren't, skewing your list isn't about taking all the most optimal choices all the time, its about spamming heaps of one thing, in this case 2+ saves. It made all of the enemies expensive AP3 weapons mostly useless.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/24 07:42:08


    Post by: Slayer-Fan123


    Spartacus wrote:
    Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
    Your 1st point makes the least amount of sense because the Terminators were just as bad, if not worse, in 7th.


    I'd heartily disagree, at their 33ppm cost in 7th they were clearly superior to Strikes, especially so with the way the AP system worked.

    Even if they weren't, skewing your list isn't about taking all the most optimal choices all the time, its about spamming heaps of one thing, in this case 2+ saves. It made all of the enemies expensive AP3 weapons mostly useless.

    The way the AP system worked is that it almost always skipped from AP4 straight to AP2. The 5++ is unreliable, so there you go.

    They were obviously one of the better Terminator variants, but let's not pretend they were good. At all.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/24 15:40:28


    Post by: jeffersonian000


    Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
    Your 1st point makes the least amount of sense because the Terminators were just as bad, if not worse, in 7th.

    GKT were superior to Strikers in 7th, and out performed Pallies. You are misremembering 7th.

    I still play 7.5e via the new 30k rulebook, which almost identical to the 7e 40k rulebook. GKT are/were the best Troop choice for GK in 7th, the only PA worth taking are Interceptors. I still take 1 block of 10 Strikes with a Librarian for Deep Striking to clear objectives, but that’s because it’s a 8e unit I can still use in 7e, not because they out perform anything.

    SJ


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/24 16:16:30


    Post by: Slayer-Fan123


     jeffersonian000 wrote:
    Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
    Your 1st point makes the least amount of sense because the Terminators were just as bad, if not worse, in 7th.

    GKT were superior to Strikers in 7th, and out performed Pallies. You are misremembering 7th.

    I still play 7.5e via the new 30k rulebook, which almost identical to the 7e 40k rulebook. GKT are/were the best Troop choice for GK in 7th, the only PA worth taking are Interceptors. I still take 1 block of 10 Strikes with a Librarian for Deep Striking to clear objectives, but that’s because it’s a 8e unit I can still use in 7e, not because they out perform anything.

    SJ

    Paladins were strictly better because of the second wound for not much more, with anything S8 or ID being thrown onto a tanking character. Then there was better saturation of Psycannons and Apothecaries with the old 5+++.

    Also the trick to Strikes was simply not taking any of the heavy weapons outside the flamer. That's better than almost 200 points for a single Psycannon and 4 Storm Bolters.

    Like I said, just because they were one of the stronger Terminator variants doesn't mean they were any good. Paladins and Chaos Terminators were the only ones I would call usable in 6th/7th, with Chaos Terminators being maybe even considered good.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/24 16:24:58


    Post by: jeffersonian000


    You could almost take 2 GKT per Pallie, which netted almost twice the firepower and melee attacks for the same points. No one took Pallies in 7e, they costed too much and weren’t ObSec. 8e swapped the paradigm. You are misremembering 7e.

    SJ


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/24 18:00:45


    Post by: Audustum


     jeffersonian000 wrote:
    You could almost take 2 GKT per Pallie, which netted almost twice the firepower and melee attacks for the same points. No one took Pallies in 7e, they costed too much and weren’t ObSec. 8e swapped the paradigm. You are misremembering 7e.

    SJ


    I just wanted to back-up the idea that Pallies were worthless compared to Terminators in 7th. It was Terminator/Grandmaster/Dreadknight with a sprinkling of Interceptors. Pallies had cool stats but were way too expensive and the extra wound was frequently ignored when they got annihilated by S8 weapons (thus triggering Instant Death and bypassing the wound).


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/24 18:16:36


    Post by: Homeskillet


    I did the "Smite Artillery" about a month ago against Nurgle Plaguebearer spam with Morty. Even before the beta bolter rule, it worked very well; now it would be fantastic. The Fury of Deimos just got incredibly good. Here's what I ran at 2k points, and I think a near-identical list will do quite well (against average folks, not getting to top tables at any GT):

    GK Battalion 1
    1- Brother Captain: Falchions/Psilencer
    1- NDKGM: sword, psycannon, incinerator
    3x5- Strike Squad: 1 psilencer, falchions on the rest

    GK Battalion 2
    1- Brother Captain: Falchions/Psilencer
    1- NDKGM: sword, psycannon
    5- Strikersquad: 1 psilencer, falchions on rest
    2x5- Strike Squad: stormbolters/falchions

    GK Vanguard
    1- Techmarine
    1- Apothecary
    1- Paladin Ancient: Fury of Deimos
    5- Paladins: Paragon w/ Hammer
    1- Venerable Dread: Missile/twin lascannon (astral aim)

    Hide the Dread. Bro Cap and NDKGM stay near as they can to spread aura bubbles, and start out Smiting. Assuming you Sanctuary a GM, then you've got 13 Smites turn one, followed by lots of Stormbolter shots (especially if you went second and got rushed).


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/24 18:29:05


    Post by: Slayer-Fan123


     jeffersonian000 wrote:
    You could almost take 2 GKT per Pallie, which netted almost twice the firepower and melee attacks for the same points. No one took Pallies in 7e, they costed too much and weren’t ObSec. 8e swapped the paradigm. You are misremembering 7e.

    SJ

    Oh please. Objective Secured was such a non-rule and only worked out for Gladius (which was already being held up by the free vehicles in the first place).


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/24 18:42:55


    Post by: Nairul


     Elric Greywolf wrote:
    So I was just running some numbers and discovered something interesting about Psybolt Ammo.

    Assume a 10-man squad, with all 40 shots, and in aura of a GM.
    Against GEQ, they get 13.8 wounds without PB, or 17.2 with.
    Against MEQ, they get 5.2 wounds without PB, or 10.3 with.

    Seems worth it to double your wounds against Marines. But is it worth 2CP to marginally bump your wounds up against MEQ?

    Seems like this strat is good against anything that changes the wound bracket, but not worth it against anything that DOESN'T.
    So, for example, going from wounds on 4s to wounds on 3s against Marines--you already have the 3s against Guard, so you don't need it.
    Or going from 6s to 5s against T8--that one is actually an impressive increase.

    So if your target is T4, T5, or T8, use it. If it's not, don't do it. (Unless you really need to knock those couple pesky wounds off a vehicle.)


    This math checks out, and I agree with your findings. These same principles also apply to the Psychic Onslaught stratagem on the GMNDK — consider not using unless your G. Psilencer is able to target T4/T5/T8 enemy (multi-wound) AND your H. Psycannon is able to target T4/T7/T8 enemy (multi-wound).

    Too many batreps I see GK players dump their precious limited CP on Psychic Onslaught for GMDNK as if it's mandatory, even though the above conditions are not met. It results in one or two extra unsaved wounds, not enough to be worth 2CP.
    And once you discover Psychic Onslaught to be situational only, as I have, the H. Incinerator becomes a more attractive option.



    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/24 19:03:58


    Post by: Slayer-Fan123


    I just wish Dreadknights could double up on the same weapon.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/24 19:09:15


    Post by: Audustum


    Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
    I just wish Dreadknights could double up on the same weapon.


    We all do :(


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/26 14:13:25


    Post by: wuestenfux


     Homeskillet wrote:
    I did the "Smite Artillery" about a month ago against Nurgle Plaguebearer spam with Morty. Even before the beta bolter rule, it worked very well; now it would be fantastic. The Fury of Deimos just got incredibly good. Here's what I ran at 2k points, and I think a near-identical list will do quite well (against average folks, not getting to top tables at any GT):

    GK Battalion 1
    1- Brother Captain: Falchions/Psilencer
    1- NDKGM: sword, psycannon, incinerator
    3x5- Strike Squad: 1 psilencer, falchions on the rest

    GK Battalion 2
    1- Brother Captain: Falchions/Psilencer
    1- NDKGM: sword, psycannon
    5- Strikersquad: 1 psilencer, falchions on rest
    2x5- Strike Squad: stormbolters/falchions

    GK Vanguard
    1- Techmarine
    1- Apothecary
    1- Paladin Ancient: Fury of Deimos
    5- Paladins: Paragon w/ Hammer
    1- Venerable Dread: Missile/twin lascannon (astral aim)

    Hide the Dread. Bro Cap and NDKGM stay near as they can to spread aura bubbles, and start out Smiting. Assuming you Sanctuary a GM, then you've got 13 Smites turn one, followed by lots of Stormbolter shots (especially if you went second and got rushed).

    Looks interesting.
    I'm curious to try this out - as you said, in friendly games not at larger tourneys.

    Here's my first try - needs trimming in the Vanguard detachment.
    Spoiler:

    New Roster (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [168 PL, 2057pts]

    Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Grey Knights) [65 PL, 750pts]

    HQ [23 PL, 366pts]

    Brother-Captain [9 PL, 118pts]
    Selections: Psilencer [8pts], Purge Soul, Two Nemesis Falchions

    Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 248pts]
    Selections: Dreadfist [10pts], Dreadfist [25pts], Heavy Incinerator [19pts], Heavy Psycannon [24pts], Vortex of Doom

    Troops [42 PL, 384pts]

    Strike Squad [14 PL, 128pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand
    Grey Knight (Psilencer) [23pts]
    Selections: Psilencer [4pts]
    4x Grey Knight (Sword) [84pts]
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter [8pts]
    Grey Knight Justicar [21pts]
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter [2pts]

    Strike Squad [14 PL, 128pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand
    Grey Knight (Psilencer) [23pts]
    Selections: Psilencer [4pts]
    4x Grey Knight (Sword) [84pts]
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter [8pts]
    Grey Knight Justicar [21pts]
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter [2pts]

    Strike Squad [14 PL, 128pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand
    Grey Knight (Psilencer) [23pts]
    Selections: Psilencer [4pts]
    4x Grey Knight (Sword) [84pts]
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter [8pts]
    Grey Knight Justicar [21pts]
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter [2pts]

    Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Grey Knights) [65 PL, 750pts]

    HQ [23 PL, 366pts]

    Brother-Captain [9 PL, 118pts]
    Selections: Nemesis Force Halberd, Psilencer [8pts], Purge Soul

    Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 248pts]
    Selections: 4: First to the Fray, Dreadfist [10pts], Dreadfist [25pts], Heavy Incinerator [19pts], Heavy Psycannon [24pts], Sanctuary, Warlord

    Troops [42 PL, 384pts]

    Strike Squad [14 PL, 128pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand
    Grey Knight (Psilencer) [23pts]
    Selections: Psilencer [4pts]
    4x Grey Knight (Sword) [84pts]
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter [8pts]
    Grey Knight Justicar [21pts]
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter [2pts]

    Strike Squad [14 PL, 128pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand
    Grey Knight (Psilencer) [23pts]
    Selections: Psilencer [4pts]
    4x Grey Knight (Sword) [84pts]
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter [8pts]
    Grey Knight Justicar [21pts]
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter [2pts]

    Strike Squad [14 PL, 128pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand
    Grey Knight (Psilencer) [23pts]
    Selections: Psilencer [4pts]
    4x Grey Knight (Sword) [84pts]
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter [8pts]
    Grey Knight Justicar [21pts]
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter [2pts]

    Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Grey Knights) [38 PL, 557pts]

    HQ [7 PL, 72pts]

    Techmarine [7 PL, 72pts]
    Selections: Boltgun, Flamer [6pts], Hammerhand, Plasma cutter [6pts], Power axe [5pts]

    Elites [31 PL, 485pts]

    Apothecary [5 PL, 75pts]
    Selections: Gate of Infinity, Nemesis Force Sword

    Paladin Ancient [7 PL, 100pts]
    Selections: Fury of Deimos, Hammerhand, Storm Bolter and Falchion [2pts]

    Paladin Squad [10 PL, 160pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand
    2x Paladin (Sword) [98pts]
    Selections: 2x Storm Bolter [4pts]
    Paragon [62pts]
    Selections: Nemesis Daemon Hammer [13pts], Storm Bolter [2pts]

    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 150pts]
    Selections: Astral Aim, Missile Launcher [25pts], Twin Lascannon [40pts]

    Created with BattleScribe


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/26 14:30:54


    Post by: Smotejob


    Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
     jeffersonian000 wrote:
    You could almost take 2 GKT per Pallie, which netted almost twice the firepower and melee attacks for the same points. No one took Pallies in 7e, they costed too much and weren’t ObSec. 8e swapped the paradigm. You are misremembering 7e.

    SJ

    Oh please. Objective Secured was such a non-rule and only worked out for Gladius (which was already being held up by the free vehicles in the first place).


    Regular teminators were better in 7th. 33pts vs 55pts. Those 22points granted 1 wound yes, but with instant death (strength is double toughness) everywhere, they died just the same. Strength 8 shooting is very easy to come by. Other armies had force too.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/26 22:45:38


    Post by: Homeskillet


     wuestenfux wrote:
     Homeskillet wrote:
    I did the "Smite Artillery" about a month ago against Nurgle Plaguebearer spam with Morty. Even before the beta bolter rule, it worked very well; now it would be fantastic. The Fury of Deimos just got incredibly good. Here's what I ran at 2k points, and I think a near-identical list will do quite well (against average folks, not getting to top tables at any GT):

    GK Battalion 1
    1- Brother Captain: Falchions/Psilencer
    1- NDKGM: sword, psycannon, incinerator
    3x5- Strike Squad: 1 psilencer, falchions on the rest

    GK Battalion 2
    1- Brother Captain: Falchions/Psilencer
    1- NDKGM: sword, psycannon
    5- Strikersquad: 1 psilencer, falchions on rest
    2x5- Strike Squad: stormbolters/falchions

    GK Vanguard
    1- Techmarine
    1- Apothecary
    1- Paladin Ancient: Fury of Deimos
    5- Paladins: Paragon w/ Hammer
    1- Venerable Dread: Missile/twin lascannon (astral aim)

    Hide the Dread. Bro Cap and NDKGM stay near as they can to spread aura bubbles, and start out Smiting. Assuming you Sanctuary a GM, then you've got 13 Smites turn one, followed by lots of Stormbolter shots (especially if you went second and got rushed).

    Looks interesting.
    I'm curious to try this out - as you said, in friendly games not at larger tourneys.

    Here's my first try - needs trimming in the Vanguard detachment.
    Spoiler:

    New Roster (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [168 PL, 2057pts]

    Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Grey Knights) [65 PL, 750pts]

    HQ [23 PL, 366pts]

    Brother-Captain [9 PL, 118pts]
    Selections: Psilencer [8pts], Purge Soul, Two Nemesis Falchions

    Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 248pts]
    Selections: Dreadfist [10pts], Dreadfist [25pts], Heavy Incinerator [19pts], Heavy Psycannon [24pts], Vortex of Doom

    Troops [42 PL, 384pts]

    Strike Squad [14 PL, 128pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand
    Grey Knight (Psilencer) [23pts]
    Selections: Psilencer [4pts]
    4x Grey Knight (Sword) [84pts]
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter [8pts]
    Grey Knight Justicar [21pts]
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter [2pts]

    Strike Squad [14 PL, 128pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand
    Grey Knight (Psilencer) [23pts]
    Selections: Psilencer [4pts]
    4x Grey Knight (Sword) [84pts]
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter [8pts]
    Grey Knight Justicar [21pts]
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter [2pts]

    Strike Squad [14 PL, 128pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand
    Grey Knight (Psilencer) [23pts]
    Selections: Psilencer [4pts]
    4x Grey Knight (Sword) [84pts]
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter [8pts]
    Grey Knight Justicar [21pts]
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter [2pts]

    Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Grey Knights) [65 PL, 750pts]

    HQ [23 PL, 366pts]

    Brother-Captain [9 PL, 118pts]
    Selections: Nemesis Force Halberd, Psilencer [8pts], Purge Soul

    Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 248pts]
    Selections: 4: First to the Fray, Dreadfist [10pts], Dreadfist [25pts], Heavy Incinerator [19pts], Heavy Psycannon [24pts], Sanctuary, Warlord

    Troops [42 PL, 384pts]

    Strike Squad [14 PL, 128pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand
    Grey Knight (Psilencer) [23pts]
    Selections: Psilencer [4pts]
    4x Grey Knight (Sword) [84pts]
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter [8pts]
    Grey Knight Justicar [21pts]
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter [2pts]

    Strike Squad [14 PL, 128pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand
    Grey Knight (Psilencer) [23pts]
    Selections: Psilencer [4pts]
    4x Grey Knight (Sword) [84pts]
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter [8pts]
    Grey Knight Justicar [21pts]
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter [2pts]

    Strike Squad [14 PL, 128pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand
    Grey Knight (Psilencer) [23pts]
    Selections: Psilencer [4pts]
    4x Grey Knight (Sword) [84pts]
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter [8pts]
    Grey Knight Justicar [21pts]
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter [2pts]

    Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Grey Knights) [38 PL, 557pts]

    HQ [7 PL, 72pts]

    Techmarine [7 PL, 72pts]
    Selections: Boltgun, Flamer [6pts], Hammerhand, Plasma cutter [6pts], Power axe [5pts]

    Elites [31 PL, 485pts]

    Apothecary [5 PL, 75pts]
    Selections: Gate of Infinity, Nemesis Force Sword

    Paladin Ancient [7 PL, 100pts]
    Selections: Fury of Deimos, Hammerhand, Storm Bolter and Falchion [2pts]

    Paladin Squad [10 PL, 160pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand
    2x Paladin (Sword) [98pts]
    Selections: 2x Storm Bolter [4pts]
    Paragon [62pts]
    Selections: Nemesis Daemon Hammer [13pts], Storm Bolter [2pts]

    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 150pts]
    Selections: Astral Aim, Missile Launcher [25pts], Twin Lascannon [40pts]

    Created with BattleScribe


    I'm curious to hear how your games go with the list!


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/01/27 09:22:17


    Post by: wuestenfux


    I'm curious to hear how your games go with the list!

    I definitely will. After some tweaks, the list looks as follows.
    Spoiler:

    New Roster (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [167 PL, 2005pts]
    Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium – Grey Knights) [65 PL, 750pts]
    HQ [23 PL, 366pts]
    Brother-Captain [9 PL, 118pts]
    Selections: Psilencer [8pts], Purge Soul, Two Nemesis Falchions

    Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 248pts]
    Selections: Dreadfist [10pts], Dreadfist [25pts], Heavy Incinerator [19pts], Heavy Psycannon [24pts], Vortex of Doom

    Troops [42 PL, 384pts]
    Strike Squad [14 PL, 128pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand

    Grey Knight (Psilencer) [23pts]
    Selections: Psilencer [4pts]

    4x Grey Knight (Sword) [84pts]
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter [8pts]

    Grey Knight Justicar [21pts]
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter [2pts]

    Strike Squad [14 PL, 128pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand

    Grey Knight (Psilencer) [23pts]
    Selections: Psilencer [4pts]

    4x Grey Knight (Sword) [84pts]
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter [8pts]

    Grey Knight Justicar [21pts]
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter [2pts]

    Strike Squad [14 PL, 128pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand

    Grey Knight (Psilencer) [23pts]
    Selections: Psilencer [4pts]

    4x Grey Knight (Sword) [84pts]
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter [8pts]

    Grey Knight Justicar [21pts]
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter [2pts]

    Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium – Grey Knights) [65 PL, 750pts]
    HQ [23 PL, 366pts]
    Brother-Captain [9 PL, 118pts]
    Selections: Nemesis Force Halberd, Psilencer [8pts], Purge Soul

    Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 248pts]
    Selections: 4: First to the Fray, Dreadfist [10pts], Dreadfist [25pts], Heavy Incinerator [19pts], Heavy Psycannon [24pts], Sanctuary, Warlord

    Troops [42 PL, 384pts]
    Strike Squad [14 PL, 128pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand

    Grey Knight (Psilencer) [23pts]
    Selections: Psilencer [4pts]

    4x Grey Knight (Sword) [84pts]
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter [8pts]

    Grey Knight Justicar [21pts]
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter [2pts]

    Strike Squad [14 PL, 128pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand

    Grey Knight (Psilencer) [23pts]
    Selections: Psilencer [4pts]

    4x Grey Knight (Sword) [84pts]
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter [8pts]

    Grey Knight Justicar [21pts]
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter [2pts]

    Strike Squad [14 PL, 128pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand

    Grey Knight (Psilencer) [23pts]
    Selections: Psilencer [4pts]

    4x Grey Knight (Sword) [84pts]
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter [8pts]

    Grey Knight Justicar [21pts]
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter [2pts]

    Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium – Grey Knights) [37 PL, 505pts]
    HQ [7 PL, 72pts]
    Techmarine [7 PL, 72pts]
    Selections: Boltgun, Flamer [6pts], Hammerhand, Plasma cutter [6pts], Power axe [5pts]

    Elites [30 PL, 433pts]
    Apothecary [5 PL, 75pts]
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Sanctuary

    Brotherhood Ancient [7 PL, 92pts]
    Selections: Fury of Deimos, Gate of Infinity, Storm bolter [2pts]

    Dreadnought [8 PL, 106pts]
    Selections: Astral Aim, Heavy Plasma Cannon [16pts], Missile Launcher [25pts]

    Paladin Squad [10 PL, 160pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand

    2x Paladin (Sword) [98pts]
    Selections: 2x Storm Bolter [4pts]

    Paragon [62pts]
    Selections: Nemesis Daemon Hammer [13pts], Storm Bolter [2pts]

    Created with BattleScribe


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/02/04 10:03:51


    Post by: wuestenfux


    Well, I'll give this army a try:

    Spoiler:
    Warhammer 40k, 8th Edition, 128 PL, 2000 pts

    Battalion Detachment +5 CP (Imperium Grey Knights) [75 PL, 1231 pts]

    HQ [28 PL, 498 pts]

    Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 249 pts]
    Dreadfist, Dreadfist, Gate of Infinity, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon

    Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 249 pts]
    First into the Frey, Dreadfist, Dreadfist, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Sanctuary, Warlord

    Troops [21 PL, 321 pts]

    Strike squad [7 PL, 107 pts]
    4 Grey Knights w/ 3x Nemesis Force Sword, 1x Psilencer, 3x Storm bolter
    Justicar w/ Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter, Vortex of Doom

    Strike squad [7 PL, 107 pts]
    4 Grey Knights w/ 3x Nemesis Force Sword, 1x Psilencer, 3x Storm bolter
    Justicar w/ Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter, Gate of Infinity

    Strike squad [7 PL, 107 pts]
    4 Grey Knights w/ 3x Nemesis Force Sword, 1x Psilencer, 3x Storm bolter
    Justicar w/ Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter, Hammerhand

    Fast Attack [16 PL, 234 pts]

    Interceptor squad [8 PL, 117 pts]
    4 Interceptors w/ 3x Nemesis Force Sword, 1x Psilencer, 3x Storm bolter
    Justicar w/ Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter, Hammerhand

    Interceptor squad [8 PL, 117 pts]
    4 Interceptors w/ 3x Nemesis Force Sword, 1x Psilencer, 3x Storm bolter
    Justicar w/ Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter, Vortex of Doom

    Dedicated Transport [10 PL, 178 pts]

    Razorback [5 PL, 89 pts]
    Twin Heavy Bolter, Storm bolter

    Razorback [5 PL, 89 pts]
    Twin Heavy Bolter, Storm bolter
    Vanguard Detachment +1 CP (Imperium – Grey Knights) [53 PL,769 pts]

    HQ [7 PL, 72 pts]

    Techmarine [7 PL, 72 pts]
    Boltgun, Flamer, Plasma cutter, Power axe, Vortex of Doom

    Elites [46 PL, 697 pts]

    Paladin squad [19 PL, 245 pts]
    4 Paladins w/ Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter
    Paragon w/ Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter, Gate of Infinity

    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 150 pts]
    Missile Launcher, Twin Lascannon, Atral Aim

    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 151 pts]
    Twin Autocannon, Twin Autocannon, Atral Aim

    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 151 pts]
    Twin Autocannon, Twin Autocannon, Atral Aim

    Created with BattleScribe


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/02/04 22:46:20


    Post by: Elric Greywolf


     wuestenfux wrote:
    Well, I'll give this army a try:

    Spoiler:
    Warhammer 40k, 8th Edition, 128 PL, 2000 pts

    Battalion Detachment +5 CP (Imperium Grey Knights) [75 PL, 1231 pts]

    HQ [28 PL, 498 pts]

    Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 249 pts]
    Dreadfist, Dreadfist, Gate of Infinity, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon

    Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 249 pts]
    First into the Frey, Dreadfist, Dreadfist, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Sanctuary, Warlord

    Troops [21 PL, 321 pts]

    Strike squad [7 PL, 107 pts]
    4 Grey Knights w/ 3x Nemesis Force Sword, 1x Psilencer, 3x Storm bolter
    Justicar w/ Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter, Vortex of Doom

    Strike squad [7 PL, 107 pts]
    4 Grey Knights w/ 3x Nemesis Force Sword, 1x Psilencer, 3x Storm bolter
    Justicar w/ Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter, Gate of Infinity

    Strike squad [7 PL, 107 pts]
    4 Grey Knights w/ 3x Nemesis Force Sword, 1x Psilencer, 3x Storm bolter
    Justicar w/ Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter, Hammerhand

    Fast Attack [16 PL, 234 pts]

    Interceptor squad [8 PL, 117 pts]
    4 Interceptors w/ 3x Nemesis Force Sword, 1x Psilencer, 3x Storm bolter
    Justicar w/ Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter, Hammerhand

    Interceptor squad [8 PL, 117 pts]
    4 Interceptors w/ 3x Nemesis Force Sword, 1x Psilencer, 3x Storm bolter
    Justicar w/ Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter, Vortex of Doom

    Dedicated Transport [10 PL, 178 pts]

    Razorback [5 PL, 89 pts]
    Twin Heavy Bolter, Storm bolter

    Razorback [5 PL, 89 pts]
    Twin Heavy Bolter, Storm bolter
    Vanguard Detachment +1 CP (Imperium – Grey Knights) [53 PL,769 pts]

    HQ [7 PL, 72 pts]

    Techmarine [7 PL, 72 pts]
    Boltgun, Flamer, Plasma cutter, Power axe, Vortex of Doom

    Elites [46 PL, 697 pts]

    Paladin squad [19 PL, 245 pts]
    4 Paladins w/ Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter
    Paragon w/ Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter, Gate of Infinity

    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 150 pts]
    Missile Launcher, Twin Lascannon, Atral Aim

    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 151 pts]
    Twin Autocannon, Twin Autocannon, Atral Aim

    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 151 pts]
    Twin Autocannon, Twin Autocannon, Atral Aim

    Created with BattleScribe

    I'm also thinking about a single battalion, because I"m going to a tournament this month that limits you to one battalion. Mine looks different than yours, though. Thoughts, anyone, on the differences between the two?

    Spoiler:

    GMDK, psilencer, psycannon, hammer, teleport
    GKDM, psilencer, psycannon, hammer
    Voldus

    GKSS, 5x, falchions, psilencer
    GKSS, 5x, falchions, psilencer
    GKSS, 5x, falchions, psilencer

    Apothecary, Destroyer of Crys'yllx

    GKI, 10x, falchions, hammer

    Raven, las, melta, hurribolts
    Raven, plas, melta, hurribolts


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/02/05 01:00:11


    Post by: Slayer-Fan123


    Don't Apothecaries only have a WS3+? I'd avoid the Hammer on them.

    Can they take a melee weapon at all, actually? I thought they were limited to the Storm Bolter.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/02/05 01:08:52


    Post by: jeffersonian000


    Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
    Don't Apothecaries only have a WS3+? I'd avoid the Hammer on them.

    Can they take a melee weapon at all, actually? I thought they were limited to the Storm Bolter.

    Apothecaries are WS 2+, 3+ with a Hammer. They can’t have a range weapon.

    SJ


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/02/05 01:12:52


    Post by: Slayer-Fan123


     jeffersonian000 wrote:
    Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
    Don't Apothecaries only have a WS3+? I'd avoid the Hammer on them.

    Can they take a melee weapon at all, actually? I thought they were limited to the Storm Bolter.

    Apothecaries are WS 2+, 3+ with a Hammer. They can’t have a range weapon.

    SJ

    Huh. I must be thinking of the regular Vanilla Apothecaries. My bad.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/02/05 06:14:04


    Post by: Grey Templar


    Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
     jeffersonian000 wrote:
    Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
    Don't Apothecaries only have a WS3+? I'd avoid the Hammer on them.

    Can they take a melee weapon at all, actually? I thought they were limited to the Storm Bolter.

    Apothecaries are WS 2+, 3+ with a Hammer. They can’t have a range weapon.

    SJ

    Huh. I must be thinking of the regular Vanilla Apothecaries. My bad.


    Yeah, ours are actually worth a damn.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/02/05 06:17:05


    Post by: psipso


     Elric Greywolf wrote:
     wuestenfux wrote:
    Well, I'll give this army a try:

    Spoiler:
    Warhammer 40k, 8th Edition, 128 PL, 2000 pts

    Battalion Detachment +5 CP (Imperium Grey Knights) [75 PL, 1231 pts]

    HQ [28 PL, 498 pts]

    Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 249 pts]
    Dreadfist, Dreadfist, Gate of Infinity, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon

    Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 249 pts]
    First into the Frey, Dreadfist, Dreadfist, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Sanctuary, Warlord

    Troops [21 PL, 321 pts]

    Strike squad [7 PL, 107 pts]
    4 Grey Knights w/ 3x Nemesis Force Sword, 1x Psilencer, 3x Storm bolter
    Justicar w/ Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter, Vortex of Doom

    Strike squad [7 PL, 107 pts]
    4 Grey Knights w/ 3x Nemesis Force Sword, 1x Psilencer, 3x Storm bolter
    Justicar w/ Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter, Gate of Infinity

    Strike squad [7 PL, 107 pts]
    4 Grey Knights w/ 3x Nemesis Force Sword, 1x Psilencer, 3x Storm bolter
    Justicar w/ Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter, Hammerhand

    Fast Attack [16 PL, 234 pts]

    Interceptor squad [8 PL, 117 pts]
    4 Interceptors w/ 3x Nemesis Force Sword, 1x Psilencer, 3x Storm bolter
    Justicar w/ Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter, Hammerhand

    Interceptor squad [8 PL, 117 pts]
    4 Interceptors w/ 3x Nemesis Force Sword, 1x Psilencer, 3x Storm bolter
    Justicar w/ Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter, Vortex of Doom

    Dedicated Transport [10 PL, 178 pts]

    Razorback [5 PL, 89 pts]
    Twin Heavy Bolter, Storm bolter

    Razorback [5 PL, 89 pts]
    Twin Heavy Bolter, Storm bolter
    Vanguard Detachment +1 CP (Imperium – Grey Knights) [53 PL,769 pts]

    HQ [7 PL, 72 pts]

    Techmarine [7 PL, 72 pts]
    Boltgun, Flamer, Plasma cutter, Power axe, Vortex of Doom

    Elites [46 PL, 697 pts]

    Paladin squad [19 PL, 245 pts]
    4 Paladins w/ Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter
    Paragon w/ Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter, Gate of Infinity

    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 150 pts]
    Missile Launcher, Twin Lascannon, Atral Aim

    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 151 pts]
    Twin Autocannon, Twin Autocannon, Atral Aim

    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 151 pts]
    Twin Autocannon, Twin Autocannon, Atral Aim

    Created with BattleScribe

    I'm also thinking about a single battalion, because I"m going to a tournament this month that limits you to one battalion. Mine looks different than yours, though. Thoughts, anyone, on the differences between the two?

    Spoiler:

    GMDK, psilencer, psycannon, hammer, teleport
    GKDM, psilencer, psycannon, hammer
    Voldus

    GKSS, 5x, falchions, psilencer
    GKSS, 5x, falchions, psilencer
    GKSS, 5x, falchions, psilencer

    Apothecary, Destroyer of Crys'yllx

    GKI, 10x, falchions, hammer

    Raven, las, melta, hurribolts
    Raven, plas, melta, hurribolts


    This is actually quite close to my current iteration:

    Spoiler:


    ++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Grey Knights) [85 PL, 1497pts] ++

    + HQ +

    Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 259pts]: 4: First to the Fray, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gatling Psilencer, Hammerhand, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword, Warlord

    Lord Kaldor Draigo [12 PL, 180pts]: Astral Aim, Gate of Infinity

    + Troops +

    Strike Squad [7 PL, 107pts]: Gate of Infinity
    . 3x Grey Knight (Falchions): 3x Storm Bolter
    . Grey Knight (Psilencer): Psilencer
    . Grey Knight Justicar: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter

    Strike Squad [7 PL, 107pts]: Sanctuary
    . 3x Grey Knight (Falchions): 3x Storm Bolter
    . Grey Knight (Psilencer): Psilencer
    . Grey Knight Justicar: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter

    Strike Squad [7 PL, 105pts]: Vortex of Doom
    . 4x Grey Knight (Falchions): 4x Storm Bolter
    . Grey Knight Justicar: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter

    + Fast Attack +

    Interceptor Squad [8 PL, 117pts]: Vortex of Doom
    . Grey Knight (Psilencer): Psilencer
    . 3x Interceptor (Falchions): 3x Storm Bolter
    . Interceptor Justicar: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter

    + Flyer +

    Stormraven Gunship [15 PL, 311pts]: 2x Stormstrike Missile Launcher, Twin Heavy Bolter, Twin Lascannon, Two Hurricane Bolters

    Stormraven Gunship [15 PL, 311pts]: 2x Stormstrike Missile Launcher, Twin Heavy Bolter, Twin Lascannon, Two Hurricane Bolters

    ++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Grey Knights) [31 PL, 502pts] ++

    + HQ +

    Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 249pts]: Dreadfist, Dreadfist, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Sanctuary

    + Elites +

    Apothecary [5 PL, 88pts]: * No Psychic Power Selected *, Curiass of Sacrifice, Nemesis Daemon Hammer

    Servitors [3 PL, 20pts]: 4x Servitor

    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 145pts]: Astral Aim, Missile launcher, Twin lascannon

    ++ Total: [116 PL, 1999pts] ++

    Created with BattleScribe


    So I'm interested to know how it goes for you.

    Before I was also bringing Destroyer of Crys'yllx with the Apothecary but I've found myself most of the time using the Apothecary holding objectives so I switched to cuirass of sacrifice. I use Draigo with GI and AI for gating behind the storm ravens and use AI on a raven alongside with psybolt amo depending on the match. Maybe something similar, at the cost of less firepower output for the Ravens, can be archived with a GMNDK or Voldus.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/02/05 08:16:23


    Post by: wuestenfux


    Well, the lists of Greywolf and Psipso are light on models.
    Two NDKs (or one NDK and Draigo) and two Stormraven make already half of the points. Not my play style.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/02/05 14:15:53


    Post by: Elric Greywolf


     wuestenfux wrote:
    Well, the lists of Greywolf and Psipso are light on models.
    Two NDKs (or one NDK and Draigo) and two Stormraven make already half of the points. Not my play style.

    Well I could swap a LRC in for one Raven. That would give me enough room for two units of naked servitors, that could sit in a ruin on an objective. My guess is that +1T +1Sv is comparable to Hard to Hit


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/02/07 15:47:38


    Post by: Elric Greywolf


    Hey guys, just ran some numbers on a Venerable Rifleman vs a Venerable Missile/Las.
    He was not in a reroll aura.

    Rifleman vs Marines (T4 Sv3+ 1dmg) – 2.22 wound
    Codex vs Marines (1dmg+frag) – 1.64 wounds
    NOTE: Interestingly, the Frag and the Krak missile do the same damage against a Marine body.

    Rifleman vs Rhino (T7 Sv3+) – 3.33 wounds
    Codex vs Rhino – 4.54 wounds

    Rifleman vs Stormraven (-1BS T7 Sv3+) – 2.67 wounds
    Codex vs Stormraven – 3.62 wounds

    Rifleman vs GEQ (T3 Sv5+ 1damage) – 4.63 wounds
    Codex vs GEQ2.68 wounds

    Rifleman vs Russ (T8 Sv3+) – 1.78 wounds
    Codex vs Russ – 4.23 wounds

    Rifleman vs Riptide with Invuln (T6 Sv3++) – 2.96 wounds
    Codex vs Riptide with Invuln – 1.93 wounds

    Rifleman vs Eldar Flyer (-2BS T6 Sv4+) – 3.56 wounds
    Codex vs Eldar Flyer – 3.31 wounds

    Rifleman vs Plaguebearers (T5 Sv5++/5+++) – 3.16 wounds
    Codex vs Plaguebearers – 2.07 wounds
    NOTE: 145pts of GKSS, in a reroll 1's aura, without psybolts, will do 2.07 wounds to a -1BS Plaguebearer squad, the same as the unsupported missile/las Ven Dread.

    These are all averages, and the standard deviation was anywhere from 0.7 all the way to 2.6. Surprisingly, the large number of shots from the fixed damage autocannon balanced out the d6 random damage from the heavier guns, so the standard variation for both builds was similar—except against single-wound models, where the las/missile had a much lower deviation (because I treated those weapons as having single damage against single-wound models).


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/02/07 18:42:26


    Post by: Slayer-Fan123


    So unfortunately it'll depend on what skew lists are going on. It's good to know how flexible the Autocannon is, but we kinda want the hardcore anti-tank shots.

    Do the Invul saves from the Knights really hurt the numbers for the LasML?


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/02/07 19:01:28


    Post by: Nairul


    Cool math Elric Graywolf — but could you explain the premise? Why must the comparison be Auto/Auto vs. ML/Las? What about all the other possible variations of Auto, ML, and Las?


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/02/07 19:14:02


    Post by: Elric Greywolf


     Nairul wrote:
    Cool math Elric Graywolf — but could you explain the premise? Why must the comparison be Auto/Auto vs. ML/Las? What about all the other possible variations of Auto, ML, and Las?

    Rifleman is a traditional Grey Knight build. It sprang up in 5e when we had a 5pt upgrade that made our autocannons +1S. It was the amazing Psyfleman, and I miss it so much.
    Missile/Las is the standard anti-tank loadout we frequently see from GK in lists and on tables.

    If you're thinking about ALL the variations, it'd be simpler to chart a single weapon for each target, and find points efficiency.
    There are other people to do that who are more obsessed or interested than I am.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/02/08 01:33:50


    Post by: Smotejob


    I compare vs points.

    I really like the lascannon + autocannon dread


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/02/08 05:16:55


    Post by: Slayer-Fan123


     Smotejob wrote:
    I compare vs points.

    I really like the lascannon + autocannon dread

    As compared to the LasML build?

    Well the interesting part is that the Autocannon would do more against horses than the ML, and I gotta imagine (though I hadn't mathed it out) that the damage output is similar.

    Ya know what? I think that's an idea worth exploring!


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/02/08 06:56:16


    Post by: wuestenfux


    Well, lascannon + missile launcher is the best combo vs tanks.
    The combo lascannon + autocannon is a bit unusual.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/02/08 12:06:56


    Post by: momerathe


    For me, the rifleman (with astral aim) is particularly valuable against things like fire-and-fade dark reapers, spears and the like. For those applications ROF beats out damage.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/02/08 20:03:47


    Post by: Nairul


    Ven Dread: Twin Las vs. Twin Auto vs. Krak Missile

    All graphs assume the Ven Dread remained stationary in the preceding movement phase. Weapons with D6 damage are treated as 3.5 damage.

    Scenario 1: Assume you're shooting at multi-wound units with 4+ wounds per model.
    Spoiler:





    Scenario 2: The target unit has an invuln save which would negate the AP-3 of the Twin Las & Krak Missile down to the same effective AP as the Twin Auto (AP-1). Same theory applies if the target unit only has a 6+ armour save, but that's pretty rare.

    Spoiler:




    My opinion
    The 48" range and availability of Astral Aim gives the Ven Dread really good target priority capability. It's often able to cherry pick targets that are best suited to each gun. Scenario 2 is common, but even then you'll notice the Twin Las still wins against T7 and T8. So even if you're facing Knights with Rotate Ion Shields, a Twin Las is still going to output more damage than a Twin Auto.

    Therefore my optimal TAC loadout for maximum shooting damage is Twin Las/Twin Auto.

    My "budget" loadout, if I need to shave off 10 points from my list or something, would be Twin Las/ML.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/02/18 21:47:41


    Post by: psipso


    What do you think about the new codex assassin leak?

    https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/771623.page

    I've got mixed feelings about it....


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/02/18 21:53:40


    Post by: Slayer-Fan123


    Good to know our Terminators can more easily give up points. I'm disappointed that Paladins are gonna do the same though.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/02/19 17:00:52


    Post by: Homeskillet


    I was actually looking into sneaking a few Vindicares into my GK list. It seems like there's lots of buffing characters running around, and the Vindis got a nice boost.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/02/20 04:45:53


    Post by: Nairul


    psipso wrote:
    What do you think about the new codex assassin leak?

    https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/771623.page

    I've got mixed feelings about it....


    PSA folks — according to the leaks, the new Culexus aura will affect ALL psykers... not just enemies. I think this ruins the Culexus for us...

    Callidus pretty much stayed the same.

    I think Vindicare and Eversor are the clear winners. I'm especially hyped about the Eversor, who will consolidate 6" (instead of 3") and explode 6" (instead of 1") and shoot enemies that fall back from him. His 1CP 4+ FNP Stratagem is freaking nuts too, and 2CP Fight again is very nifty for covering even MORE ground with that 6" Consolidate. He's a tagging machine.

    Whereas Vindicare is a fine option for us, as he can start on the board and therefore help to solve some Tactical Reserves issues that our army suffers from.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/02/20 06:40:02


    Post by: Slayer-Fan123


     Nairul wrote:
    psipso wrote:
    What do you think about the new codex assassin leak?

    https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/771623.page

    I've got mixed feelings about it....


    PSA folks — according to the leaks, the new Culexus aura will affect ALL psykers... not just enemies. I think this ruins the Culexus for us...

    Callidus pretty much stayed the same.

    I think Vindicare and Eversor are the clear winners. I'm especially hyped about the Eversor, who will consolidate 6" (instead of 3") and explode 6" (instead of 1") and shoot enemies that fall back from him. His 1CP 4+ FNP Stratagem is freaking nuts too, and 2CP Fight again is very nifty for covering even MORE ground with that 6" Consolidate. He's a tagging machine.

    Whereas Vindicare is a fine option for us, as he can start on the board and therefore help to solve some Tactical Reserves issues that our army suffers from.

    It doesn't ruin the Culexus for us. It merely means we need to position him differently. Remember we can use him as a potential wall.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/02/22 20:45:55


    Post by: Nairul


    Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

    It doesn't ruin the Culexus for us. It merely means we need to position him differently. Remember we can use him as a potential wall.


    Eh. Okay I'll grant you a scenario might exist where we'll be able to position the Culexus in such a way that he's not within 18 of any of our units but IS within 18 enemy psykers. Except then we'll still want our units to also be within 24 of those psykers so they can Deny, but not within 18 of our own Culexus so their denials aren't muted.

    But gosh, that seems a heck of a lot harder to pull off with a deep-strike oriented army like ours with the Culexus coming down on Turn 2 like the rest of our reinforcements.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/02/27 21:07:54


    Post by: Smotejob


     Nairul wrote:
    psipso wrote:
    What do you think about the new codex assassin leak?

    https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/771623.page

    I've got mixed feelings about it....


    PSA folks — according to the leaks, the new Culexus aura will affect ALL psykers... not just enemies. I think this ruins the Culexus for us...

    Callidus pretty much stayed the same.

    I think Vindicare and Eversor are the clear winners. I'm especially hyped about the Eversor, who will consolidate 6" (instead of 3") and explode 6" (instead of 1") and shoot enemies that fall back from him. His 1CP 4+ FNP Stratagem is freaking nuts too, and 2CP Fight again is very nifty for covering even MORE ground with that 6" Consolidate. He's a tagging machine.

    Whereas Vindicare is a fine option for us, as he can start on the board and therefore help to solve some Tactical Reserves issues that our army suffers from.


    Callidus went to 2d on the phase sword. She is a much better character hunter now. Great at hunting characters that rely on an invul.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/02/28 07:38:00


    Post by: wuestenfux


    Here is the list I'll try out on Saturday.

    Spoiler:
    New Roster (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [128 PL, 2000pts]
    Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium – Grey Knights) [75 PL, 1243pts]

    HQ [28 PL, 498pts]

    Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 249pts]
    Selections: Dreadfist [10pts], Dreadfist [25pts], Gate of Infinity, Gatling Psilencer [20pts], Heavy Psycannon [24pts]

    Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 249pts]
    Selections: 4: First to the Fray, Dreadfist [25pts], Dreadfist [10pts], Gatling Psilencer [20pts], Heavy Psycannon [24pts], Sanctuary, Warlord

    Troops [21 PL, 321pts]

    Strike Squad [7 PL, 107pts]
    Selections: Gate of Infinity

    Grey Knight (Psilencer) [23pts]
    Selections: Psilencer [4pts]

    3x Grey Knight (Sword) [63pts]
    Selections: 3x Storm Bolter [6pts]

    Grey Knight Justicar [21pts]
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter [2pts]

    Strike Squad [7 PL, 107pts]
    Selections: Gate of Infinity

    Grey Knight (Psilencer) [23pts]
    Selections: Psilencer [4pts]

    3x Grey Knight (Sword) [63pts]
    Selections: 3x Storm Bolter [6pts]

    Grey Knight Justicar [21pts]
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter [2pts]

    Strike Squad [7 PL, 107pts]
    Selections: Gate of Infinity

    Grey Knight (Psilencer) [23pts]
    Selections: Psilencer [4pts]

    3x Grey Knight (Sword) [63pts]
    Selections: 3x Storm Bolter [6pts]

    Grey Knight Justicar [21pts]
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter [2pts]

    Fast Attack [16 PL, 234pts]

    Interceptor Squad [8 PL, 117pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand

    Grey Knight (Psilencer) [25pts]
    Selections: Psilencer [4pts]

    3x Interceptor (Sword) [69pts]
    Selections: 3x Storm Bolter [6pts]

    Interceptor Justicar [23pts]
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter [2pts]

    Interceptor Squad [8 PL, 117pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand

    Grey Knight (Psilencer) [25pts]
    Selections: Psilencer [4pts]

    3x Interceptor (Sword) [69pts]
    Selections: 3x Storm Bolter [6pts]

    Interceptor Justicar [23pts]
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter [2pts]

    Dedicated Transport [10 PL, 190pts]

    Razorback [5 PL, 95pts]
    Selections: Hunter-killer missile [6pts], Storm Bolter [2pts], Twin Heavy Bolter [17pts]

    Razorback [5 PL, 95pts]
    Selections: Hunter-killer missile [6pts], Storm Bolter [2pts], Twin Heavy Bolter [17pts]

    Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium – Grey Knights) [53 PL, 757pts]

    HQ [7 PL, 71pts]

    Techmarine [7 PL, 71pts]
    Selections: Boltgun, Curiass of Sacrifice, Flamer [6pts], Plasma cutter [5pts], Power axe [5pts], Vortex of Doom

    Elites [46 PL, 686pts]

    Paladin Squad [19 PL, 251pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand

    Paladin (Psilencer) [55pts]
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Psilencer (Terminator) [8pts]

    3x Paladin (Sword) [147pts]
    Selections: 3x Storm Bolter [6pts]

    Paragon [49pts]
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm Bolter [2pts]

    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 145pts]
    Selections: Astral Aim, Twin autocannon [30pts], Twin autocannon [30pts]

    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 145pts]
    Selections: Astral Aim, Twin autocannon [30pts], Twin autocannon [30pts]

    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 145pts]
    Selections: Astral Aim, Twin autocannon [30pts], Twin autocannon [30pts]

    Created with BattleScribe


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/03/01 11:39:17


    Post by: Quickjager


    Yea, I'm really feeling that ven. dreadnoughts really might be the way to take the army right now... which sucks.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/03/03 05:22:17


    Post by: Nairul


     wuestenfux wrote:
    Here is the list I'll try out on Saturday.

    Spoiler:
    New Roster (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [128 PL, 2000pts]
    Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium – Grey Knights) [75 PL, 1243pts]

    HQ [28 PL, 498pts]

    Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 249pts]
    Selections: Dreadfist [10pts], Dreadfist [25pts], Gate of Infinity, Gatling Psilencer [20pts], Heavy Psycannon [24pts]

    Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 249pts]
    Selections: 4: First to the Fray, Dreadfist [25pts], Dreadfist [10pts], Gatling Psilencer [20pts], Heavy Psycannon [24pts], Sanctuary, Warlord

    Troops [21 PL, 321pts]

    Strike Squad [7 PL, 107pts]
    Selections: Gate of Infinity

    Grey Knight (Psilencer) [23pts]
    Selections: Psilencer [4pts]

    3x Grey Knight (Sword) [63pts]
    Selections: 3x Storm Bolter [6pts]

    Grey Knight Justicar [21pts]
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter [2pts]

    Strike Squad [7 PL, 107pts]
    Selections: Gate of Infinity

    Grey Knight (Psilencer) [23pts]
    Selections: Psilencer [4pts]

    3x Grey Knight (Sword) [63pts]
    Selections: 3x Storm Bolter [6pts]

    Grey Knight Justicar [21pts]
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter [2pts]

    Strike Squad [7 PL, 107pts]
    Selections: Gate of Infinity

    Grey Knight (Psilencer) [23pts]
    Selections: Psilencer [4pts]

    3x Grey Knight (Sword) [63pts]
    Selections: 3x Storm Bolter [6pts]

    Grey Knight Justicar [21pts]
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter [2pts]

    Fast Attack [16 PL, 234pts]

    Interceptor Squad [8 PL, 117pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand

    Grey Knight (Psilencer) [25pts]
    Selections: Psilencer [4pts]

    3x Interceptor (Sword) [69pts]
    Selections: 3x Storm Bolter [6pts]

    Interceptor Justicar [23pts]
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter [2pts]

    Interceptor Squad [8 PL, 117pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand

    Grey Knight (Psilencer) [25pts]
    Selections: Psilencer [4pts]

    3x Interceptor (Sword) [69pts]
    Selections: 3x Storm Bolter [6pts]

    Interceptor Justicar [23pts]
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter [2pts]

    Dedicated Transport [10 PL, 190pts]

    Razorback [5 PL, 95pts]
    Selections: Hunter-killer missile [6pts], Storm Bolter [2pts], Twin Heavy Bolter [17pts]

    Razorback [5 PL, 95pts]
    Selections: Hunter-killer missile [6pts], Storm Bolter [2pts], Twin Heavy Bolter [17pts]

    Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium – Grey Knights) [53 PL, 757pts]

    HQ [7 PL, 71pts]

    Techmarine [7 PL, 71pts]
    Selections: Boltgun, Curiass of Sacrifice, Flamer [6pts], Plasma cutter [5pts], Power axe [5pts], Vortex of Doom

    Elites [46 PL, 686pts]

    Paladin Squad [19 PL, 251pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand

    Paladin (Psilencer) [55pts]
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Psilencer (Terminator) [8pts]

    3x Paladin (Sword) [147pts]
    Selections: 3x Storm Bolter [6pts]

    Paragon [49pts]
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm Bolter [2pts]

    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 145pts]
    Selections: Astral Aim, Twin autocannon [30pts], Twin autocannon [30pts]

    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 145pts]
    Selections: Astral Aim, Twin autocannon [30pts], Twin autocannon [30pts]

    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 145pts]
    Selections: Astral Aim, Twin autocannon [30pts], Twin autocannon [30pts]

    Created with BattleScribe

     Quickjager wrote:
    Yea, I'm really feeling that ven. dreadnoughts really might be the way to take the army right now... which sucks.


    Careful folks. Battlescribe just updated data and apparently our Twin Autocannons cost 33 pts not 30.

    I've looked into the issue, and it seems the "30" value that came from CA 2018 only applies to Forge World units. What a bummer. I guess that data has been wrong for a while now...


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/03/05 07:14:27


    Post by: Audustum


    Anyone want to add some salt to their wounds?

    New Phobos powers for Primaris Vanguard got leaked. They get our Shrouding:

    Shrouding:The psyker uses his mastery of the warp to fog the minds of his enemies, cliuding their senses so that his allies appear as nothing more than indistinct shadows.

    Shrouding has a warp charge value of 6. If manifested, select a friendly Adeptus Astartes Phobos unit within 18" of the psyker. Until the start of your next Psychic phase, enemy models can only shoot this unit if it is the closest target that is visible to them.


    They also got two, Scryer's Gaze and Temporal Corridor, that sound like something we would have.

    Let's also remember that GW previously said we won't be getting Primaris units.

    https://imgur.com/vkyBtyi


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/03/05 11:06:26


    Post by: wuestenfux


    Well, I'll try the following army next time.
    The tactics is a beta (deep) strike in turn 2, with 2 GMDK in reserve, 5 Strike squads in reserve, and 3 (teleporting) Interceptor squads.
    The idea is to bring all their weapons to bear at once (storm bolters within 12'').
    This gives mainly 160 stormbolter shots and the remaining shebang.
    The only way to play GK!? Thoughts?

    Spoiler:

    New Roster (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [128 PL, 1973pts]
    Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Grey Knights) [63 PL, 1033pts]

    HQ
    Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 254pts]
    Selections: Dreadfist, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Incinerator, Sanctuary

    Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 254pts]
    Selections: 4: First to the Fray, Dreadfist, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Incinerator, Sanctuary, Warlord

    Troops
    Strike Squad [7 PL, 105pts]
    Selections: Gate of Infinity
    4x Grey Knight (Sword)
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter
    Grey Knight Justicar
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter

    Strike Squad [7 PL, 105pts]
    Selections: Gate of Infinity
    4x Grey Knight (Sword)
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter
    Grey Knight Justicar
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter

    Strike Squad [7 PL, 105pts]
    Selections: Gate of Infinity
    4x Grey Knight (Sword)
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter
    Grey Knight Justicar
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter

    Strike Squad [7 PL, 105pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand
    4x Grey Knight (Sword)
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter
    Grey Knight Justicar
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter

    Strike Squad [7 PL, 105pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand
    4x Grey Knight (Sword)
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter
    Grey Knight Justicar
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter


    Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Grey Knights) [34 PL, 524pts]

    HQ
    Techmarine [7 PL, 71pts]
    Selections: Boltgun, Power axe, Vortex of Doom
    Servo-arms (CODEX)
    Selections: Flamer, Plasma cutter

    Elites
    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 151pts]
    Selections: Astral Aim, Twin autocannon, Twin autocannon

    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 151pts]
    Selections: Astral Aim, Twin autocannon, Twin autocannon

    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 151pts]
    Selections: * No Psychic Power Selected *, Twin autocannon, Twin autocannon


    Outrider Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Grey Knights) [31 PL, 416pts]

    HQ
    Techmarine [7 PL, 71pts]
    Selections: Boltgun, Power axe, Vortex of Doom
    Servo-arms (CODEX)
    Selections: Flamer, Plasma cutter

    Fast Attack
    Interceptor Squad [8 PL, 115pts]
    Selections: * No Psychic Power Selected *
    4x Interceptor (Sword)
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter
    Interceptor Justicar
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter

    Interceptor Squad [8 PL, 115pts]
    Selections: * No Psychic Power Selected *
    4x Interceptor (Sword)
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter
    Interceptor Justicar
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter

    Interceptor Squad [8 PL, 115pts]
    Selections: * No Psychic Power Selected *
    4x Interceptor (Sword)
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter
    Interceptor Justicar
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter

    Created with BattleScribe


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/03/05 19:46:22


    Post by: Lanlaorn


    If you stay hidden all of turn 1 then many fast moving armies can just literally cover the board (easier than it sounds considering two units can be 18 inches apart and deny deep strike between them) and your turn 2 deepstrike will be in your own deployment zone =/


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/03/06 08:10:39


    Post by: wuestenfux


    Lanlaorn wrote:
    If you stay hidden all of turn 1 then many fast moving armies can just literally cover the board (easier than it sounds considering two units can be 18 inches apart and deny deep strike between them) and your turn 2 deepstrike will be in your own deployment zone =/

    Indeed, this could counter my tactics.
    But if all goes well, my army can bring more than 200 shots to bear.
    So particularly hordes will suffer.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/03/12 12:46:01


    Post by: BiscuitButcher8


    Played 2 games last night with the beta deep strike rules...and they suck for GK. Only 800 point game against Blood Ravens but the first game I was close to being wiped off the board turn 1 (not a lot of cover). Second game I was wiped from the board turn 1 but my opponent kindly let me strike in.

    Bad tactics on my part, I was just trying to see what my units could do. But I started the night unawares of the beta strike rule.

    Looks like we need some fire support to help the first turn or lots of GoI's.



    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/03/13 17:08:49


    Post by: Reemule


    I've started playing with: Draigo, Voldus, and a GMDK with the P weapons, and Sword as a supreme command detachment.

    The rest of my list is a pair of Crusader Imperial Knights, and a Warlord Warden.

    The GK's are really helpful. Mass shots from the DreadKnight, along with some stormbolter shots from the GK are pretty effective. The smites are somewhat useful, but the Porting around the field is so advantageous, as is the ability to deny every psychic power.

    GK's have found their nitch with my force.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/03/14 10:17:54


    Post by: wuestenfux


    Reemule wrote:
    I've started playing with: Draigo, Voldus, and a GMDK with the P weapons, and Sword as a supreme command detachment.

    The rest of my list is a pair of Crusader Imperial Knights, and a Warlord Warden.

    The GK's are really helpful. Mass shots from the DreadKnight, along with some stormbolter shots from the GK are pretty effective. The smites are somewhat useful, but the Porting around the field is so advantageous, as is the ability to deny every psychic power.

    GK's have found their nitch with my force.

    Soup is very legal these days. Picking the best from several worlds is obviously the way to go in a competitive setting.
    A supreme cmd detachment might be useful, but not in my book as I stay away from named characters.
    On the other hand, if you play pure GK, every dead GK Marine hurts a lot.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/03/16 16:25:27


    Post by: Solosam47


    What forgeworld stuff do Grey Knights have access to?
    I have recently started a GK army and I have two boxes of SS and three boxes of GKT as well as Voldus to assemble and paint before I add to my army. After looking around I can't seem to find much FW stuff the GK can use save a OOP dread, Fancy Razorback, and a Thunderhawk. Am I missing some gems?

    Trying not to ally too much in the list as I want it pretty close to just a GK army.

    (Unless by some weird twist of fate primaris get drop pods and a strong CC unit that allow them to make decent use of BT tactic)


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/03/16 16:49:04


    Post by: wuestenfux


    Battled a game vs GSC today. 2000 pts, maelstrom. Worked pretty well.
    The tactics was to keep the 3 GMNDK and the 3x5 Strikes in reserve,
    while the 3 Dreads, 2 Techmarines and the 3x5 Interceptors were deployed on the board.
    In round 2, I've organized a massive strike with NDKs, Strikes and Interceptors moving in close and personal.
    This was indeed a major blow so that at the end, GSC had only several character models alive,
    while all units were dead including one Leman Russ.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/03/17 12:50:10


    Post by: wuestenfux


    Well, the list for next weekend is given below.
    Same tactics, beta strike (round 2).
    Spoiler:

    New Roster (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [130 PL, 2001pts]
    Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Grey Knights) [65 PL, 1061pts]
    HQ
    Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 254pts]
    Selections: 4: First to the Fray, Dreadfist, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Incinerator, Sanctuary, Warlord
    Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 254pts]
    Selections: Dreadfist, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Incinerator, Sanctuary
    Troops
    Strike Squad [7 PL, 105pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand
    4x Grey Knight (Sword)
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter
    Grey Knight Justicar
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter
    Strike Squad [7 PL, 105pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand
    4x Grey Knight (Sword)
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter
    Grey Knight Justicar
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter
    Strike Squad [7 PL, 105pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand
    4x Grey Knight (Sword)
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter
    Grey Knight Justicar
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter
    Elites
    Dreadnought [8 PL, 119pts]
    Selections: Assault cannon, Vortex of Doom
    Dreadnought combat weapon w/Storm Bolter
    Selections: Storm bolter
    Dreadnought [8 PL, 119pts]
    Selections: Assault cannon, Vortex of Doom
    Dreadnought combat weapon w/Storm Bolter
    Selections: Storm bolter
    Outrider Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Grey Knights) [31 PL, 416pts]
    HQ
    Techmarine [7 PL, 71pts]
    Selections: Boltgun, Power axe, Vortex of Doom
    Servo-arms (CODEX)
    Selections: Flamer, Plasma cutter
    Fast Attack
    Interceptor Squad [8 PL, 115pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand
    4x Interceptor (Sword)
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter
    Interceptor Justicar
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter
    Interceptor Squad [8 PL, 115pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand
    4x Interceptor (Sword)
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter
    Interceptor Justicar
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter
    Interceptor Squad [8 PL, 115pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand
    4x Interceptor (Sword)
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter
    Interceptor Justicar
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter
    Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Grey Knights) [34 PL, 524pts]
    HQ
    Techmarine [7 PL, 71pts]
    Selections: Boltgun, Power axe, Vortex of Doom
    Servo-arms (CODEX)
    Selections: Flamer, Plasma cutter
    Elites
    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 151pts]
    Selections: Astral Aim, Twin autocannon, Twin autocannon
    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 151pts]
    Selections: Astral Aim, Twin autocannon, Twin autocannon
    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 151pts]
    Selections: Astral Aim, Twin autocannon, Twin autocannon

    Created with BattleScribe


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/03/18 01:22:56


    Post by: Grey Templar


     Solosam47 wrote:
    What forgeworld stuff do Grey Knights have access to?


    Basically nothing good, and most of it is from as far back as 4th edition.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/03/18 05:01:49


    Post by: Solosam47


     Grey Templar wrote:
     Solosam47 wrote:
    What forgeworld stuff do Grey Knights have access to?


    Basically nothing good, and most of it is from as far back as 4th edition.


    Oh man GK do have the short stick in all this. Hopefully with all this chaos stuff GK gets some love soon.

    I am just now starting up list building and hopefully soon I can get a few games in with them to get a feel. Any advice for squads of Paladins? I see lists that are doing squads of 3 but that seems all to easy to be shot off the table.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/03/23 05:20:02


    Post by: Solosam47


    Hey I got a question: so I have 3 boxes of GK terminators and was wondering how I should go about building them. I want to make a few characters out of them like the apothecary, chaplain and brother captain, should I bother with banners? I know people are against GKT as troops but what about Paladin set-ups? Units of 3 seem small but then again I haven’t ran them or played them so I can’t weigh in on effectiveness.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/03/23 06:51:32


    Post by: Grey Templar


    I guess one good thing with some of the Forge World rules is they still have access to Psybolt ammo

    It always bugged me how lazy GW was. I mean, would it have been so hard to give our Land Raiders and Dreadnoughts some of the GK wargear options by default? It would have taken a minute to give them Psycannons, Psilincers, and Incinerator options.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/03/23 15:44:41


    Post by: Solosam47


     Grey Templar wrote:
    I guess one good thing with some of the Forge World rules is they still have access to Psybolt ammo

    It always bugged me how lazy GW was. I mean, would it have been so hard to give our Land Raiders and Dreadnoughts some of the GK wargear options by default? It would have taken a minute to give them Psycannons, Psilincers, and Incinerator options.


    Yeah that would have added a nice amount of flavor, the codex is really a hasty done codex and could use a lot of little things like that to make it feel like a meal the codex’s should be. Psybolt ammo for all bolters and a proper aegis back would be nice. Also relics, GK really need some usable relics.

    Anyways, on a tactics side note, landraiders, are they too much of a point sink?

    Edit: oh forgot to mention about the forgeworld dread, where is it’s rules? In the FW index? It seems like it can be converted all too easy and while I found some rules online I can’t find points.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/03/23 23:32:48


    Post by: CKO


    why do i pay more for psycannons on Terminators do they have a relentless rule that I am unaware of?


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/03/23 23:56:32


    Post by: Quickjager


    You pay more no real reason. Serious.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/03/24 00:00:42


    Post by: _SeeD_


     CKO wrote:
    why do i pay more for psycannons on Terminators do they have a relentless rule that I am unaware of?

    The cost is more on terminators because they get to keep their melee weapons.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/03/24 00:18:18


    Post by: CKO


     _SeeD_ wrote:
     CKO wrote:
    why do i pay more for psycannons on Terminators do they have a relentless rule that I am unaware of?

    The cost is more on terminators because they get to keep their melee weapons.


    Thank you


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/03/24 01:00:11


    Post by: Grey Templar


     _SeeD_ wrote:
     CKO wrote:
    why do i pay more for psycannons on Terminators do they have a relentless rule that I am unaware of?

    The cost is more on terminators because they get to keep their melee weapons.


    Dumb, because you're now paying points for that melee weapon. While the PA guy simply doesn't have to pay for the melee weapon, meaning it is effectively just a refund.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/03/24 02:20:56


    Post by: _SeeD_


     Grey Templar wrote:
     _SeeD_ wrote:
     CKO wrote:
    why do i pay more for psycannons on Terminators do they have a relentless rule that I am unaware of?

    The cost is more on terminators because they get to keep their melee weapons.


    Dumb, because you're now paying points for that melee weapon. While the PA guy simply doesn't have to pay for the melee weapon, meaning it is effectively just a refund.

    I also think Terminators should have no penalty to shooting heavy weapons on the move. It could easily be put in the "Crux Terminatus" designation.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/03/24 07:26:24


    Post by: wuestenfux


    Here is my current GK list, 2000 pts.
    It's quite good (especially vs. infantry armies) since in round two (beta) it makes possible a massive strike with almost 200 shots: 140 S4 from storm bolters, 2x12 shots from heavy psilencers, 2xD6 automatic hits from heavy incinerators, and 3x8 shots from twin autocannons.
    Spoiler:

    New Roster (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [133 PL, 2008pts]
    Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium – Grey Knights) [68 PL, 1068pts]
    HQ
    Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 254pts]
    Selections: 4: First to the Fray, Dreadfist, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Incinerator, Sanctuary, Warlord

    Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 254pts]
    Selections: Dreadfist, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Incinerator, Sanctuary

    Troops
    Strike Squad [7 PL, 105pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand

    4x Grey Knight (Sword)
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter

    Grey Knight Justicar
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter

    Strike Squad [7 PL, 105pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand

    4x Grey Knight (Sword)
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter

    Grey Knight Justicar
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter

    Strike Squad [7 PL, 105pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand

    4x Grey Knight (Sword)
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter

    Grey Knight Justicar
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter

    Elites
    Paladin Squad [19 PL, 245pts]
    Selections: Sanctuary

    4x Paladin (Sword)
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter

    Paragon
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm Bolter

    Outrider Detachment +1CP (Imperium – Grey Knights) [31 PL, 416pts]
    HQ
    Techmarine [7 PL, 71pts]
    Selections: Boltgun, Power axe, Vortex of Doom

    Servo-arms (CODEX)
    Selections: Flamer, Plasma cutter

    Fast Attack
    Interceptor Squad [8 PL, 115pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand

    4x Interceptor (Sword)
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter

    Interceptor Justicar
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter

    Interceptor Squad [8 PL, 115pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand

    4x Interceptor (Sword)
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter

    Interceptor Justicar
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter

    Interceptor Squad [8 PL, 115pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand

    4x Interceptor (Sword)
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter

    Interceptor Justicar
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter

    Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium – Grey Knights) [34 PL, 524pts]
    HQ
    Techmarine [7 PL, 71pts]
    Selections: Boltgun, Power axe, Vortex of Doom

    Servo-arms (CODEX)
    Selections: Flamer, Plasma cutter

    Elites
    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 151pts]
    Selections: Astral Aim, Twin autocannon, Twin autocannon

    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 151pts]
    Selections: Astral Aim, Twin autocannon, Twin autocannon

    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 151pts]
    Selections: Astral Aim, Twin autocannon, Twin autocannon

    Created with BattleScribe

    Thoughts?


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/03/24 12:37:57


    Post by: Emulgator


     _SeeD_ wrote:
    I also think Terminators should have no penalty to shooting heavy weapons on the move. It could easily be put in the "Crux Terminatus" designation.


    Tbh I would already be happy if the damn Dreadknight/GMDK could fire heavy weapons without penalty (even though hes like the one model in our army that does not technically need buffing)
    but to me its getting ridiculous at this point that a tiny havoc csm can just waltz up to me and fire his heavy weapon no problem but my big robot with all his hydraulics and whatnot cant...


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/03/24 19:32:06


    Post by: Solosam47


     wuestenfux wrote:
    Here is my current GK list, 2000 pts.
    It's quite good (especially vs. infantry armies) since in round two (beta) it makes possible a massive strike with almost 200 shots: 140 S4 from storm bolters, 2x12 shots from heavy psilencers, 2xD6 automatic hits from heavy incinerators, and 3x8 shots from twin autocannons.
    Spoiler:

    New Roster (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [133 PL, 2008pts]
    Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium – Grey Knights) [68 PL, 1068pts]
    HQ
    Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 254pts]
    Selections: 4: First to the Fray, Dreadfist, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Incinerator, Sanctuary, Warlord

    Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 254pts]
    Selections: Dreadfist, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Incinerator, Sanctuary

    Troops
    Strike Squad [7 PL, 105pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand

    4x Grey Knight (Sword)
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter

    Grey Knight Justicar
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter

    Strike Squad [7 PL, 105pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand

    4x Grey Knight (Sword)
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter

    Grey Knight Justicar
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter

    Strike Squad [7 PL, 105pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand

    4x Grey Knight (Sword)
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter

    Grey Knight Justicar
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter

    Elites
    Paladin Squad [19 PL, 245pts]
    Selections: Sanctuary

    4x Paladin (Sword)
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter

    Paragon
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm Bolter

    Outrider Detachment +1CP (Imperium – Grey Knights) [31 PL, 416pts]
    HQ
    Techmarine [7 PL, 71pts]
    Selections: Boltgun, Power axe, Vortex of Doom

    Servo-arms (CODEX)
    Selections: Flamer, Plasma cutter

    Fast Attack
    Interceptor Squad [8 PL, 115pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand

    4x Interceptor (Sword)
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter

    Interceptor Justicar
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter

    Interceptor Squad [8 PL, 115pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand

    4x Interceptor (Sword)
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter

    Interceptor Justicar
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter

    Interceptor Squad [8 PL, 115pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand

    4x Interceptor (Sword)
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter

    Interceptor Justicar
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter

    Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium – Grey Knights) [34 PL, 524pts]
    HQ
    Techmarine [7 PL, 71pts]
    Selections: Boltgun, Power axe, Vortex of Doom

    Servo-arms (CODEX)
    Selections: Flamer, Plasma cutter

    Elites
    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 151pts]
    Selections: Astral Aim, Twin autocannon, Twin autocannon

    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 151pts]
    Selections: Astral Aim, Twin autocannon, Twin autocannon

    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 151pts]
    Selections: Astral Aim, Twin autocannon, Twin autocannon

    Created with BattleScribe

    Thoughts?


    I really like the list and it is somewhat what I am using as a framework for my 1st 2k points, albeit a few changes. My question is about the paladins, why did you choose them and the gear you gave them? whats the role they are filling? I have been wanting to incorporate some into my list and was looking at 2 groups of 3 with halberds and psilencer.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/03/25 08:49:28


    Post by: wuestenfux


     Solosam47 wrote:
     wuestenfux wrote:
    Here is my current GK list, 2000 pts.
    It's quite good (especially vs. infantry armies) since in round two (beta) it makes possible a massive strike with almost 200 shots: 140 S4 from storm bolters, 2x12 shots from heavy psilencers, 2xD6 automatic hits from heavy incinerators, and 3x8 shots from twin autocannons.
    Spoiler:

    New Roster (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [133 PL, 2008pts]
    Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium – Grey Knights) [68 PL, 1068pts]
    HQ
    Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 254pts]
    Selections: 4: First to the Fray, Dreadfist, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Incinerator, Sanctuary, Warlord

    Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 254pts]
    Selections: Dreadfist, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Incinerator, Sanctuary

    Troops
    Strike Squad [7 PL, 105pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand

    4x Grey Knight (Sword)
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter

    Grey Knight Justicar
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter

    Strike Squad [7 PL, 105pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand

    4x Grey Knight (Sword)
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter

    Grey Knight Justicar
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter

    Strike Squad [7 PL, 105pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand

    4x Grey Knight (Sword)
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter

    Grey Knight Justicar
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter

    Elites
    Paladin Squad [19 PL, 245pts]
    Selections: Sanctuary

    4x Paladin (Sword)
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter

    Paragon
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm Bolter

    Outrider Detachment +1CP (Imperium – Grey Knights) [31 PL, 416pts]
    HQ
    Techmarine [7 PL, 71pts]
    Selections: Boltgun, Power axe, Vortex of Doom

    Servo-arms (CODEX)
    Selections: Flamer, Plasma cutter

    Fast Attack
    Interceptor Squad [8 PL, 115pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand

    4x Interceptor (Sword)
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter

    Interceptor Justicar
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter

    Interceptor Squad [8 PL, 115pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand

    4x Interceptor (Sword)
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter

    Interceptor Justicar
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter

    Interceptor Squad [8 PL, 115pts]
    Selections: Hammerhand

    4x Interceptor (Sword)
    Selections: 4x Storm Bolter

    Interceptor Justicar
    Selections: Nemesis Force Sword, Storm bolter

    Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium – Grey Knights) [34 PL, 524pts]
    HQ
    Techmarine [7 PL, 71pts]
    Selections: Boltgun, Power axe, Vortex of Doom

    Servo-arms (CODEX)
    Selections: Flamer, Plasma cutter

    Elites
    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 151pts]
    Selections: Astral Aim, Twin autocannon, Twin autocannon

    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 151pts]
    Selections: Astral Aim, Twin autocannon, Twin autocannon

    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 151pts]
    Selections: Astral Aim, Twin autocannon, Twin autocannon

    Created with BattleScribe

    Thoughts?


    I really like the list and it is somewhat what I am using as a framework for my 1st 2k points, albeit a few changes. My question is about the paladins, why did you choose them and the gear you gave them? whats the role they are filling? I have been wanting to incorporate some into my list and was looking at 2 groups of 3 with halberds and psilencer.

    The Paladins fill holes in the tactical alignment of the army.
    Nevertheless, they are the most questionable unit in the list.

    The rest of the army is quite straightforward:
    The 2 GMNKs and the 3 Strike squads deep-strike and the 3 Interceptor squads teleport, everything in round 2. The enemy has (almost) no chance to see it coming.
    One of the Dreads uses astral aim, and the other two run with the Techmarines. Looks like the optimal way to keep them alive.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/03/25 16:19:30


    Post by: Solosam47


    Thanks for the insight! I’m hoping to be trying out a version of this list but with a few changes, as much as I want to run paladins I think I may use points elsewhere. I don’t believe GK is very prominent in my are so this should catch people off guard left and right.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/03/25 16:41:48


    Post by: wuestenfux


     Solosam47 wrote:
    Thanks for the insight! I’m hoping to be trying out a version of this list but with a few changes, as much as I want to run paladins I think I may use points elsewhere. I don’t believe GK is very prominent in my are so this should catch people off guard left and right.

    Stormbolters are very effective vs. T3 units.
    Against tanks lascannons are more effective.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/04/03 19:04:25


    Post by: Elric Greywolf


    Just so you're aware, it now costs us 388pts for a Vanguard of Fallen with a Sorcerer, who can then summon Daemons.

    So if you want some cheap Marine bodies (14ppm), a decent character (Cypher), Death Hex (from the Sorc) and perhaps a Bloodthirster to back up your GK, it's a go!


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/04/03 21:00:49


    Post by: Amaurosis


     wuestenfux wrote:
    Here is my current GK list, 2000 pts.


    Elites
    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 151pts]
    Selections: Astral Aim, Twin autocannon, Twin autocannon

    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 151pts]
    Selections: Astral Aim, Twin autocannon, Twin autocannon

    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 151pts]
    Selections: Astral Aim, Twin autocannon, Twin autocannon


    Thoughts?



    After some longer timout on 40K, a friend an me are about to reactivate.
    But above puzzles me! Are our Dreadnoughts allowed to carry autocannons again?
    My codex doesn't say so and I could not find any erratas either...or is this some house rules used by some players?

    Please enlighten me, because I own those autocannons and would like to use them, too. ^^


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/04/03 21:30:03


    Post by: _SeeD_


    Amaurosis wrote:
     wuestenfux wrote:
    Here is my current GK list, 2000 pts.


    Elites
    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 151pts]
    Selections: Astral Aim, Twin autocannon, Twin autocannon

    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 151pts]
    Selections: Astral Aim, Twin autocannon, Twin autocannon

    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 151pts]
    Selections: Astral Aim, Twin autocannon, Twin autocannon


    Thoughts?



    After some longer timout on 40K, a friend an me are about to reactivate.
    But above puzzles me! Are our Dreadnoughts allowed to carry autocannons again?
    My codex doesn't say so and I could not find any erratas either...or is this some house rules used by some players?

    Please enlighten me, because I own those autocannons and would like to use them, too. ^^

    Technically, you're allowed to use the Index rules. If you remember, the Indexes were the interim rules between 7th and 8th edition.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/04/03 21:33:21


    Post by: Slayer-Fan123


    Index rules are available yes, and the TL Autocannons are a cheap way to add some decent firepower that doesn't worry about high Invul saves everywhere.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/04/03 21:44:35


    Post by: _SeeD_


    Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
    Index rules are available yes, and the TL Autocannons are a cheap way to add some decent firepower that doesn't worry about high Invul saves everywhere.

    Indeed. Against a single Toughness 8 enemy, the ML gives a slight advantage in wounds/point, but if you lower the toughness and increase the number of enemy models, the TL Autocannon is good (30 points right now).


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/04/04 02:21:33


    Post by: Nairul


     _SeeD_ wrote:
    Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
    Index rules are available yes, and the TL Autocannons are a cheap way to add some decent firepower that doesn't worry about high Invul saves everywhere.

    Indeed. Against a single Toughness 8 enemy, the ML gives a slight advantage in wounds/point, but if you lower the toughness and increase the number of enemy models, the TL Autocannon is good (30 points right now).


    Actually 33pts, but your point is still 100% valid.

    Sadly, the CA change to 30pts for Twin Autocannon was for Forgeworld units only. Battlescribe GK files incorrectly priced them at 30pts for a significant period of time, and the correction back to 33pts was made only a few weeks ago.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/04/08 10:15:45


    Post by: wuestenfux


     _SeeD_ wrote:
    Amaurosis wrote:
     wuestenfux wrote:
    Here is my current GK list, 2000 pts.


    Elites
    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 151pts]
    Selections: Astral Aim, Twin autocannon, Twin autocannon

    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 151pts]
    Selections: Astral Aim, Twin autocannon, Twin autocannon

    Venerable Dreadnought [9 PL, 151pts]
    Selections: Astral Aim, Twin autocannon, Twin autocannon


    Thoughts?



    After some longer timout on 40K, a friend an me are about to reactivate.
    But above puzzles me! Are our Dreadnoughts allowed to carry autocannons again?
    My codex doesn't say so and I could not find any erratas either...or is this some house rules used by some players?

    Please enlighten me, because I own those autocannons and would like to use them, too. ^^

    Technically, you're allowed to use the Index rules. If you remember, the Indexes were the interim rules between 7th and 8th edition.

    Right.
    I've used the index and battlescribe.
    The combo lascannon and missile launcher is certainly also a viable option.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/04/09 10:35:54


    Post by: wuestenfux


    Well, with this list I've battled my friend Eric,
    first with his GSC and second with his EC.
    Both times, he got almost tabled.
    His GSC had three characters left after 5 rounds and his EC had 1 Rhino and 1 Sorcerer left after 6 rounds.
    Not too bad if you ask me.
    But loosing even a single GK hurts a lot.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/04/17 10:51:54


    Post by: kawasaknin


    love grey knights very fun to play.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/04/21 13:50:56


    Post by: Smotejob


     Elric Greywolf wrote:
    Just so you're aware, it now costs us 388pts for a Vanguard of Fallen with a Sorcerer, who can then summon Daemons.

    So if you want some cheap Marine bodies (14ppm), a decent character (Cypher), Death Hex (from the Sorc) and perhaps a Bloodthirster to back up your GK, it's a go!


    I don't play fallen. Not do I have the codex with their rules. But, the FAQ came out saying cypher can't summon demons and I didn't think fallen squads had a sorcerer.

    Can anyone confirm?


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/04/21 15:45:28


    Post by: Solosam47


     Smotejob wrote:
     Elric Greywolf wrote:
    Just so you're aware, it now costs us 388pts for a Vanguard of Fallen with a Sorcerer, who can then summon Daemons.

    So if you want some cheap Marine bodies (14ppm), a decent character (Cypher), Death Hex (from the Sorc) and perhaps a Bloodthirster to back up your GK, it's a go!


    I don't play fallen. Not do I have the codex with their rules. But, the FAQ came out saying cypher can't summon demons and I didn't think fallen squads had a sorcerer.

    Can anyone confirm?


    In the new vigilus book fallen got access to sorcerers and rhinos, I don’t know about any restrictions to that because I don’t have the book, but yes you are slightly mistaken.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/04/21 20:31:32


    Post by: Sterling191


     Smotejob wrote:
     Elric Greywolf wrote:
    Just so you're aware, it now costs us 388pts for a Vanguard of Fallen with a Sorcerer, who can then summon Daemons.

    So if you want some cheap Marine bodies (14ppm), a decent character (Cypher), Death Hex (from the Sorc) and perhaps a Bloodthirster to back up your GK, it's a go!


    I don't play fallen. Not do I have the codex with their rules. But, the FAQ came out saying cypher can't summon demons and I didn't think fallen squads had a sorcerer.

    Can anyone confirm?


    There's a specialist detachment with Vigilus Ablaze that allows Fallen to take Sorcerers and Rhinos, and gives them keywords that allow them to ally with Imperium detachments.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/04/24 18:09:47


    Post by: Vortenger


    It's the ultimate in heresy, but I am tickled by the idea of a GK army battling with Fallen allies who summon daemons, and I have the models to do this.

    Now if only one could Warptime a GMNDK...




    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/04/25 06:57:35


    Post by: Cos


    One question:
    Ancient with standard relic + Captain. Is a good combo? I belive than it a expensive combo but I don't know if it is a good combo.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/04/25 07:16:49


    Post by: wuestenfux


    Cos wrote:
    One question:
    Ancient with standard relic + Captain. Is a good combo? I belive than it a expensive combo but I don't know if it is a good combo.

    Well, I'd stay away from all HQs other than GMNKs and Techmarines.
    Too expensive and too less game impact.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/04/25 11:36:51


    Post by: Lord Clinto


     wuestenfux wrote:
    Cos wrote:
    One question:
    Ancient with standard relic + Captain. Is a good combo? I belive than it a expensive combo but I don't know if it is a good combo.

    Well, I'd stay away from all HQs other than GMNKs and Techmarines.
    Too expensive and too less game impact.


    If I might ask...why techmarines?


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/04/25 12:08:28


    Post by: wuestenfux


     Lord Clinto wrote:
     wuestenfux wrote:
    Cos wrote:
    One question:
    Ancient with standard relic + Captain. Is a good combo? I belive than it a expensive combo but I don't know if it is a good combo.

    Well, I'd stay away from all HQs other than GMNKs and Techmarines.
    Too expensive and too less game impact.


    If I might ask...why techmarines?

    Well, I use one or two Techmarines in my GK army if it contains Dreads.
    They are great to keep them alive.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/04/25 16:29:54


    Post by: Lord Clinto


     wuestenfux wrote:
     Lord Clinto wrote:
     wuestenfux wrote:
    Cos wrote:
    One question:
    Ancient with standard relic + Captain. Is a good combo? I belive than it a expensive combo but I don't know if it is a good combo.

    Well, I'd stay away from all HQs other than GMNKs and Techmarines.
    Too expensive and too less game impact.


    If I might ask...why techmarines?

    Well, I use one or two Techmarines in my GK army if it contains Dreads.
    They are great to keep them alive.


    Okay, in a support role. Wasn't sure if I was missing something with them. =)
    Personally I hate the fact that GK Techmarines lost the ability to take force weapons; imo they lost a lot of character/fluff.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/04/26 08:04:58


    Post by: wuestenfux


     Lord Clinto wrote:
     wuestenfux wrote:
     Lord Clinto wrote:
     wuestenfux wrote:
    Cos wrote:
    One question:
    Ancient with standard relic + Captain. Is a good combo? I belive than it a expensive combo but I don't know if it is a good combo.

    Well, I'd stay away from all HQs other than GMNKs and Techmarines.
    Too expensive and too less game impact.


    If I might ask...why techmarines?

    Well, I use one or two Techmarines in my GK army if it contains Dreads.
    They are great to keep them alive.


    Okay, in a support role. Wasn't sure if I was missing something with them. =)
    Personally I hate the fact that GK Techmarines lost the ability to take force weapons; imo they lost a lot of character/fluff.

    Well, in my games so far with GK, my Techmarines never got into cc action.
    In one game my Ven Dreads came under heavy fire but were in cover and the two Techmarines helped to keep them alive.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/04/28 11:52:13


    Post by: HeavenLord


    A pure GK army just won a major, here is the list:
    Kaldor
    Brotherhood captain
    Apothecary
    10 paladins (4 psylancer, 8 halberds and 2 staves)
    10 purifiers (falchions)

    GMDK Sword (pure close combat)
    2 Land raider (2 twin las Can and heavy bolter)
    5 purgation (falchions and storm bolters)


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/04/28 13:20:08


    Post by: Audustum


    HeavenLord wrote:
    A pure GK army just won a major, here is the list:
    Kaldor
    Brotherhood captain
    Apothecary
    10 paladins (4 psylancer, 8 halberds and 2 staves)
    10 purifiers (falchions)

    GMDK Sword (pure close combat)
    2 Land raider (2 twin las Can and heavy bolter)
    5 purgation (falchions and storm bolters)


    It's definitely got some 'do not recommend' units. I'd also note the tournament was ETC rules, not ITC or NOVA and included Maelstrom rules. So not what most of us are trying to field them in.

    That said, glad to see it did well!


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/04/29 16:56:04


    Post by: Elric Greywolf


    The FAQ gave Interceptors a buff and the rest of our codex a nerf. GKI can charge over the chaff, but no more 2++ GMDKs.

    I'm not sure the GKI will benefit from this much, since they aren't heavy hitters in melee anyhow and just want to mow through the chaff. It will help them single out buffing characters.

    The loss of the 2++ GMDK is a real kick in the balls, as that was our only upper-tier unit (which was itself bogged down by a bottom-tier codex).
    On the slight upside, now you won't have to debate with yourself whether you want one 2++ and one 4++ GMDK, or two 3++s. GW has decided that for you!


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/04/29 17:36:18


    Post by: Nairul


     Elric Greywolf wrote:
    The FAQ gave Interceptors a buff and the rest of our codex a nerf. GKI can charge over the chaff, but no more 2++ GMDKs.

    I'm not sure the GKI will benefit from this much, since they aren't heavy hitters in melee anyhow and just want to mow through the chaff. It will help them single out buffing characters.

    The loss of the 2++ GMDK is a real kick in the balls, as that was our only upper-tier unit (which was itself bogged down by a bottom-tier codex).
    On the slight upside, now you won't have to debate with yourself whether you want one 2++ and one 4++ GMDK, or two 3++s. GW has decided that for you!


    Aye. It's worth mentioning that the Interceptor errata, as usual, is just a reprint of the new FLY rule. So it's fairly disconcerting, but not surprising, that all the GK-specific attention they gave us was negative.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    I like how in GW's quest to snuff out our 2++ combos (Heed, BroChamp) they neglected to edit the Warding Stave language... which was literally the SAME as Heed re: "add 1 to invulnerable saving throws".

    Could this have been intentional on their part? Not likely. The more probable & sadder explanation is that they simply forgot about the Warding Stave and it's capability of RAW a 2++ in the Fight phase. Proving even more that GW doesn't give half a mind to think about GK more than they're required to.




    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/04/29 23:06:29


    Post by: Vortenger


    I had really hoped at least one major FAQ cycle would come about without kicking GK in the purity seals.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/05/02 04:05:43


    Post by: ImPhaeronWeasel


    Hey people! Whats the best way to run GMNDKs?


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/05/02 13:00:09


    Post by: Smotejob


    ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
    Hey people! Whats the best way to run GMNDKs?


    Heavy Psycannon+ Gatling psilencer + sword

    A debate can be made for the hammer. It hits a tad bit better against high wound models, but I like the sword for the 2+ to hit.

    Sanctuary to get the 3++

    However, don't drop this in solo anywhere anymore. That 3++ will topple pretty easily.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/05/02 15:01:29


    Post by: ImPhaeronWeasel


     Smotejob wrote:
    ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
    Hey people! Whats the best way to run GMNDKs?


    Heavy Psycannon+ Gatling psilencer + sword

    A debate can be made for the hammer. It hits a tad bit better against high wound models, but I like the sword for the 2+ to hit.

    Sanctuary to get the 3++

    However, don't drop this in solo anywhere anymore. That 3++ will topple pretty easily.


    The idea was to run a supreme command detachment with 2 masters and the one special character (forgot the name). I just dont know whats the best loadout and psychic powers.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/05/02 15:19:54


    Post by: Sterling191


    ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:

    The idea was to run a supreme command detachment with 2 masters and the one special character (forgot the name). I just dont know whats the best loadout and psychic powers.


    If this was my "GK friends for anti-psyker/horde rush shenanigans, fun and profit" SupCom cadre, it was a Brother Captain, Crowe and a SS/Stave Librarian with an Ancient toting the relic banner. Bro-cap gets Sanctuary (ideally to cast on Crowe), Libby gets Hammerhand (cast on self), and the rest is largely unimportant. Crowe and Banner-boi are there as a 2d6 MW smite shotgun plus melee anti-horde (Crowe will scythe through most line rush units with surprising lethality), Cappy is there to boost smite range for them, and Libby is a tarpit / psyker breaker (his mandatory Hood gives him a net +2 to deny rolls, which is pure domination against anything short of Ahriman, Magnus, Eldrad or Yvraine) .



    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/05/03 09:13:31


    Post by: tneva82


    Sterling191 wrote:
    Cappy is there to boost smite range for them, and Libby is a tarpit / psyker breaker (his mandatory Hood gives him a net +2 to deny rolls, which is pure domination against anything short of Ahriman, Magnus, Eldrad or Yvraine) .



    Orks can also get through that with their +3.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/05/11 20:46:16


    Post by: Smotejob


    Ok GK community... How do we deal with eldar flyer spam without giving up our ability to deal with other armies?


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/05/12 00:37:18


    Post by: greyknight12


     Smotejob wrote:
    Ok GK community... How do we deal with eldar flyer spam without giving up our ability to deal with other armies?

    MSU power armor squads, shooting lances into them is inefficient and if the flyers get close they can eat a dozen smites and a hundred storm bolter shots.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/05/13 16:39:57


    Post by: Gunrunner1775


    well, have had my first two games with my mono-codex greyknights (no allies )

    game 1, vs blood angles that had a very heavy gunline army, greyknights win
    game 2, vs eldar, shut down the eldar psychic phase for certain, while the VP was very much in favor of the greyknights, the game was a blood bath with few models remaining on both sides

    all infantry, no vehicles, no dreadknights
    4 strike squads, 2 interceptor squads, 2 purifier squads, 1 paladin squad
    paladin ancient, apothecary
    voldus, draigo, captain


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/05/18 16:33:40


    Post by: Smotejob


    Gunrunner1775 wrote:
    well, have had my first two games with my mono-codex greyknights (no allies )

    game 1, vs blood angles that had a very heavy gunline army, greyknights win
    game 2, vs eldar, shut down the eldar psychic phase for certain, while the VP was very much in favor of the greyknights, the game was a blood bath with few models remaining on both sides

    all infantry, no vehicles, no dreadknights
    4 strike squads, 2 interceptor squads, 2 purifier squads, 1 paladin squad
    paladin ancient, apothecary
    voldus, draigo, captain


    Very nice! With the points drop on most of our units in December and now with the Big nerfs to knights/eldar, our Grey Knights are in a much stronger place than they were 6 months ago. I find myself winning more and more. Been on a bit of a winning streak myself with pure GK (or now pure +1 assassin).

    I still always suprise my opponents with how much damage I put out in a turn.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/05/21 14:43:11


    Post by: jeffersonian000


    Yeah, I’ve been getting quite a few comments on how unexpected the shear output of firepower from my GK. Simply running full units at double tap range kills an opponent’s moral really fast.

    SJ


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/05/22 11:40:33


    Post by: Gunrunner1775


    well, got a few more games in with my all infantry greyknights,

    I am starting to belive that there is no problem with the codex at all, and that it is the tactics used that is the problem

    all wins, crushing victories for the most part
    we have been useing the missions from chapter approved 2018 for the most part, absolutely nothing that is etc/itc based

    I did change it up, droped the purifier squads and added 2 more interceptor squads

    all infantry, no vehicles, no dreadknights
    4 strike squads, 4 interceptor squads, 1 paladin squad, paladin ancient, apothecary
    voldus, draigo, captain (WL)


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/05/22 12:07:30


    Post by: Sterling191


    In fairness, infantry only lists are skew lists (I say this as someone who is maining a pure infantry DW plus auxiliaries force at the moment). If an enemy comes expecting even a single Knight-level chassis (which most will because it's 8th) they're almost certainly giving up a LOT of infantry sweeping firepower.

    Give it some time, and see how you do once your opponents adapt. In the meantime, enjoy kicking ass with a fun army that most folks wont expect!



    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/05/22 15:23:15


    Post by: Smotejob


    I agree, I def win more and lose rarely. When I do lose, it is usually in a tournament or because I did something stupid.

    Now, 1k sons have some tools I would love, and full character smites would be awesome, and those small changes would secure a bit more at the tourney level.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/05/22 16:48:10


    Post by: Audustum


    Gunrunner1775 wrote:
    well, got a few more games in with my all infantry greyknights,

    I am starting to belive that there is no problem with the codex at all, and that it is the tactics used that is the problem

    all wins, crushing victories for the most part
    we have been useing the missions from chapter approved 2018 for the most part, absolutely nothing that is etc/itc based

    I did change it up, droped the purifier squads and added 2 more interceptor squads

    all infantry, no vehicles, no dreadknights
    4 strike squads, 4 interceptor squads, 1 paladin squad, paladin ancient, apothecary
    voldus, draigo, captain (WL)


    I think you own post answers it, right? You're doing GW missions which also means you're not in one of the huge tournaments. It's in a heavy competitive meta using tournament missions where most of the players saying GK have issues are coming from.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/06/03 19:59:34


    Post by: Smotejob


    Audustum wrote:
    Gunrunner1775 wrote:
    well, got a few more games in with my all infantry greyknights,

    I am starting to belive that there is no problem with the codex at all, and that it is the tactics used that is the problem

    all wins, crushing victories for the most part
    we have been useing the missions from chapter approved 2018 for the most part, absolutely nothing that is etc/itc based

    I did change it up, droped the purifier squads and added 2 more interceptor squads

    all infantry, no vehicles, no dreadknights
    4 strike squads, 4 interceptor squads, 1 paladin squad, paladin ancient, apothecary
    voldus, draigo, captain (WL)


    I think you own post answers it, right? You're doing GW missions which also means you're not in one of the huge tournaments. It's in a heavy competitive meta using tournament missions where most of the players saying GK have issues are coming from.


    Say there is a big GW tournament on the horizon. Can a GK list win a grand tournament using GW missions? At 1750?


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/06/06 20:31:28


    Post by: Quickjager


    Maybe, what are the rules.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/06/08 11:59:33


    Post by: Gunrunner1775


    just an update

    only lost 1 game so far with my greyknights

    vs genestealer cult, the player is damned good, and I can not figure out tactics on how to beat them, at least not with greyknights (my ultrasmurfs would smoke em with ease)

    all infantry
    battalion
    HQ: voldus, draigo
    Troops: 4x strike squads(5)
    FA: 3x interceptor squads(5)
    vanguard
    HQ: captain (warlord-first to the fray )
    Elites: Apothecary, Paladin Ancient,
    --->Paladin Squad (10 paladins) <---
    FA: 1x interceptor squad(5)

    my paladins have been the star performers every game
    yes, they have been wiped out or almost wiped out every game, but the fact that my opponent tends to focus fire 99% of his army onto the paladins, leaves remainder of army to perform other tactical objectives

    I have been shocked at just how much firepower folks are willing to unload on a big blob of paladins, and I am even more shocked at just how much firepower that the squad can absorb

    at first, I was like "one extra wound aint gonna help all that much, but I will try it".. HOLY gak feth HELL DAMN.. that one extra wound is a massive game changer on that unit. by far the most durable unit I have played with (and ive played with knights) I have seen this unit survive huge amounts of firepower and still keep slaughtering the enemy


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/06/11 16:39:26


    Post by: Orodhen


    Does the relic Banner of Refining Flame replace the normal banner carried by the Ancient or do they both work together?


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/06/12 13:07:50


    Post by: CorvusFortis


    Relic banner just adds up effect for normal banner. You will have both in one.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/06/13 16:14:53


    Post by: Orodhen


    If Imperial Armour: Talons of the Emperor actually ever gets released, it's supposed to add new datahseets to the Grey Knights list. What FW models do you guys think would help plug any gaps in our repertoire?

    Ex: Leviathan, Deredeo and Contemptor Dreadnoughts


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/06/25 13:58:20


    Post by: Smotejob


    If it ever does get released, I would really like to see the fast attacks and heavy support sections filled out. We have a good hq, troop and elite list, but those FA and heavy are so bare boned it hurts.

    I would love to see some devastator centurion type models that tote around 2x Psycannon or psilencers a model and can still shoot at full bs if they move.

    Not sure how to fix fast attack without going the bike route or land speeders


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/07/02 03:08:17


    Post by: Frankenberry


    Was wondering how you folks would handle fighting a pure Death Guard list at 2k? Got a smack-talking friend that wants to face down my GK's this month and I've been pouring over my list. Here are my ideas so far:

    List 1
    GMNDK x 2
    Voldus
    Drago
    Captain
    Apothecary
    Ancient
    6 x Strikes
    1 x min paladin squad

    List 2
    GMNDK x 2
    Voldus
    Drago
    6 x Strikes
    Knight Paladin

    That's it for now. My major worries are dealing with Morty and the Plague drones that my opponent likes to take. Not really worried about Plague Marines or gribbly demons much, won't see a GUO, but probably a demon prince. Figure Drago and Voldus can erase anything that gets into my lines, except Mortarion.

    I've read elsewhere that the best way to deal with the flying spaghetti monster is to just smite him off the board. Since our smites hurt Morty moreso than basic ones, I'm considering just surrounding the giant flying douchebag with strikes and burning him down that way. Anyhow, ideas?


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/07/02 03:41:19


    Post by: Homeskillet


     Frankenberry wrote:
    Was wondering how you folks would handle fighting a pure Death Guard list at 2k? Got a smack-talking friend that wants to face down my GK's this month and I've been pouring over my list. Here are my ideas so far:

    List 1
    GMNDK x 2
    Voldus
    Drago
    Captain
    Apothecary
    Ancient
    6 x Strikes
    1 x min paladin squad

    List 2
    GMNDK x 2
    Voldus
    Drago
    6 x Strikes
    Knight Paladin

    That's it for now. My major worries are dealing with Morty and the Plague drones that my opponent likes to take. Not really worried about Plague Marines or gribbly demons much, won't see a GUO, but probably a demon prince. Figure Drago and Voldus can erase anything that gets into my lines, except Mortarion.

    I've read elsewhere that the best way to deal with the flying spaghetti monster is to just smite him off the board. Since our smites hurt Morty moreso than basic ones, I'm considering just surrounding the giant flying douchebag with strikes and burning him down that way. Anyhow, ideas?


    Smite smite smite smite shoot and mop up with charges. Smite some more.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/07/10 12:34:55


    Post by: D6Damager


     Frankenberry wrote:


    I've read elsewhere that the best way to deal with the flying spaghetti monster is to just smite him off the board. Since our smites hurt Morty moreso than basic ones, I'm considering just surrounding the giant flying douchebag with strikes and burning him down that way. Anyhow, ideas?


    Ally in a vanilla terminator librarian with null zone. If Morty loses his invulnerable you have a much easier time in dropping him.


    8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2019/07/27 20:44:24


    Post by: Aeri


    Hey Guys!

    I am still having trouble building a working list with the GK models I have so far.

    Here is what I have in my collection:


    Grey Knights:
    *************** 4 HQ ***************
    Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight

    Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight

    Lord Kaldor Draigo

    Librarian GK

    *************** 3 Troops***************
    Strike Squad
    5 Strike Marines
    Strike Squad
    5 Strike Marines

    10 Terminators or Paladins
    (2 Heavy Weapons, Melee Weapons magnetized)

    *************** 1 Elite ***************

    Venerable Dreadnought

    *************** 2 Fast Attack***************
    Interceptor Squad
    5 Interceptors

    Interceptor Squad
    5 Interceptors

    *************** 1 Flieger ***************
    Stormraven Gunship


    Officio Assassinorum:
    *************** 2 Elite ***************
    Vindicare Assassin

    Culexus Assassin


    Imperial Knights
    *************** 1 Lord of War ***************
    1 Imperial Knight Paladin/Errant/Gallant/Warden/Crusader




    I am most certainly facing Tyranids and I know that it is going to be an uphill battle.
    Can you give me some advice on how to build my list and how to actually use it? If you reccommend getting more units of any kind. which ones should I buy?
    I couldnt figure out how to use GK in 8th edition yet.
    Your help is appreciated!