What are people thinking in terms of dreadnoughts? Dual autocannon dreads or Las and autocannon dread? More Las is always good right and it gives you greater flexibility in engaging targets
How do we get the weight of fire to deal with hordes? Or even just high numbers of infantry?
One of my usual opponents plays Necrons and I haven't been able to beat him. We've been playing lower point games so he's only been taking 10 man squads but between the rend on gauss and the tesla from Immortals I am being overwhelmed in shooting.
Smite's 1 mortal wound does practically nothing (especially considering the squad comes back) and My 5 man Paladin squad with 2 psycannons did about 3 wounds between shooting and assault, before dying because they fell back and rapid fired/tesla'd with the nearby squads.
The latest list I tried was
Grand Master with psycannon
Apothecary
Castellan Crowe
5 Paladins with 2 psycannons & mix of melee weapons
5 Purifiers with 2 psycannons
The Purifiers died to Deathmarks far before they could get in range to smite anything, the Grandmaster was tarpitted by Wraith until a Night Scythe dumped 5 warscythe Lychguard into the combat, killing my GM and my Apothecary (but luckily Crowe showed up at roughly that exact moment and over 2 turns rolled 2 6 damage smites, killing both units)
And then Crowe, who was my last model at this point, promptly died to rapid fire/tesla.
Don't even get me started on if he brings a Monolith, haha.
Rihgu wrote: How do we get the weight of fire to deal with hordes? Or even just high numbers of infantry?
The latest list I tried was
Grand Master with psycannon
Apothecary
Castellan Crowe
5 Paladins with 2 psycannons & mix of melee weapons
5 Purifiers with 2 psycannons
Assuming that's about 1000 points? You're bringing 13 models. You don't have enough warm bodies to provide meaningful fire.
Try something like:
1 HQ 3 Interceptor Squads/Strike Squads at max unit size (combat squad them)
IDK Razorbacks? Something with anti tank.
Now you've got 31 models + however you fill out your last 150ish points, giving you 62 storm bolter shots at 24" or 124 at 12". Compare to your list where you have 16 storm bolter shots and 5 psycannon.
Elite stuff is cool, but without a solid core of PAGK, you're going to have a rough time.
You are using too many expensive units. Paladins are great for pressuring but they are really expensive for low points, specially if you load them with psycannons. Purifiers are even worse, as they are expensive but also fragile, they require a delivery device and a very specific game plan.
Also you are playing too many characters. Every single grey knight character is bad except for the first grand master. Your units are already good, they don't need many buffs.
Generally, the core of your army should consist of strike squads, preferably on transports or maybe interceptors.
3 units of 5 strike squad + 3 razorbacks with assault cannon and bolter add up to 621 points, and give you 72 bolter shots and 36 assault cannon shots. That decimates any light or medium armor infantry, even more if the grand master is around. Also with the razorbacks the strtike squads are protected from light fire and have mobility.
For the heavy targets you can use Paladins,Twinlas+TwinAC dreadnoughts or doomglaives (heavy psycannon and doomglaive). Also your GM (which should usually be upgraded to Voldus or Draigo) with a hammer can deal with armor.
Paladins should not be used as your only anti armor, as they lack mobility. They are a very resistant target that can kill most things and pressure, but they can't surgically remove a problematic target.
Las + AC dreads are pretty good for their points, but against really durable targets like leman russes only the laser is good, and you won't be able to blow it in one turn unless you are playing at least 3 dreads. The AC are good, but kind of redundant, as bolters and assault cannons can already deal with light and medium armor. Also, they will remain immobile so they are not good with objectives and will get separated from the main army, wich can be dangerous.
Doomglaives are great, they are venerables with a triple AC and a better (and cheaper) dreadnought close combat weapon. They also know smite and can use gate of infinity for mobility. They basically can deal with any threat, but they are not the most durable.
Rihgu wrote: How do we get the weight of fire to deal with hordes? Or even just high numbers of infantry?
One of my usual opponents plays Necrons and I haven't been able to beat him. We've been playing lower point games so he's only been taking 10 man squads but between the rend on gauss and the tesla from Immortals I am being overwhelmed in shooting.
Smite's 1 mortal wound does practically nothing (especially considering the squad comes back) and My 5 man Paladin squad with 2 psycannons did about 3 wounds between shooting and assault, before dying because they fell back and rapid fired/tesla'd with the nearby squads.
The latest list I tried was
Grand Master with psycannon
Apothecary
Castellan Crowe
5 Paladins with 2 psycannons & mix of melee weapons
5 Purifiers with 2 psycannons
The Purifiers died to Deathmarks far before they could get in range to smite anything, the Grandmaster was tarpitted by Wraith until a Night Scythe dumped 5 warscythe Lychguard into the combat, killing my GM and my Apothecary (but luckily Crowe showed up at roughly that exact moment and over 2 turns rolled 2 6 damage smites, killing both units)
And then Crowe, who was my last model at this point, promptly died to rapid fire/tesla.
Don't even get me started on if he brings a Monolith, haha.
Drop the psycannons and bring Psilencers. More shots on target. Also as has been stated you have a lot of elite units which can be really hard to manage.
Drop Crowe and the apothecary if your only running a single Paladins squad. Add in either strikes or purgation squad which I personally am a fan of. A squad with 4 psilencers is only 113 points and has a lot of dice.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Nevermind I found the info on the doomglaive. Except no points which is annoying.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Nevermind again found that too...
Assuming that's about 1000 points? You're bringing 13 models. You don't have enough warm bodies to provide meaningful fire.
50 power, which is roughly 1000pts, yea.
Try something like:
1 HQ 3 Interceptor Squads/Strike Squads at max unit size (combat squad them)
IDK Razorbacks? Something with anti tank.
And therein lies my problem. All but 12 of my PAGK are modeled as Purifiers so I can't take full squads because too many special weapons models and not enough basic dudes models. So guess I have to hit the store...
Now you've got 31 models + however you fill out your last 150ish points, giving you 62 storm bolter shots at 24" or 124 at 12". Compare to your list where you have 16 storm bolter shots and 5 psycannon.
Elite stuff is cool, but without a solid core of PAGK, you're going to have a rough time.
Can't we just go back to 5th edition where the Grey Knights lists had 15 models and that was considered good? Those were the good old days :(
Seizeman wrote:You are using too many expensive units. Paladins are great for pressuring but they are really expensive for low points, specially if you load them with psycannons. Purifiers are even worse, as they are expensive but also fragile, they require a delivery device and a very specific game plan.
We were using Power so point cost of psycannons wasn't particularly an issue.
TheMostWize wrote:Drop the psycannons and bring Psilencers. More shots on target. Also as has been stated you have a lot of elite units which can be really hard to manage.
Sadly I made my minis back in 5th edition where my only opponent was a Leman Russ heavy guard player so I needed every psycannon I could get to gamble for rends. (In all of our games together, the only damage that happened to his Leman Russes were a Gets Hot from plasma sponsons, so fat lot of good they did me) so unless I buy new models or rip the ones I've got apart, I'm going to be sticking with psycannons. New models will probably be getting psilencers, though.
This is the 100 Power list I'm planning on taking against him next time we play:
Grandmaster with halberd+psycannon
5 Paladins
1 Apothecary
1 Stormraven with MM, Lascannons and hurricane bolters
5 Purgators with 4 psycannons
5 Purgators with 4 psycannons
1 Dreadknight with Heavy Incinerator and Greatsword (deepstriking)
2 Razorbacks with assault cannons
Doomglaive dread uses a heavy psycanon, the same that the dreadknights use, but with 2+ BS. It has a shorter range than the autocannon, of course.
Everyone is praising psilencers on strike squads but I think they are awful. If you move, which you are going to do most of the time (disembarking, deepstriking and gateofinfinitying count as moving), they do very little more than the storm bolter. For that, you are loosing your falchions. Flachions are worth at least 7 points, so the psycannon is actually not cheap at all. You are giving up all your combat power (which is a lot) for a little shooting.
Grey knights are a really powerful offensive army, but not a very good defensive one. You are paying 8 points more than a normal marine for the same thoughness, and the only way that is going to pay off is if you maximise your damage. For that, your need your strike squads to deal damage both in the shooting phase and in combat. If you charge a single time with a strike squad, you are dealing more damage than what the extra power from the psilencers would do the whole game.
If you want a unit to sit back inmobile and shoot, don't use strike squads, use dreadnoughts and the like.
Grandmaster with halberd+psycannon
5 Paladins
1 Apothecary
1 Stormraven with MM, Lascannons and hurricane bolters
5 Purgators with 4 psycannons
5 Purgators with 4 psycannons
1 Dreadknight with Heavy Incinerator and Greatsword (deepstriking)
2 Razorbacks with assault cannons
Hey Rihgu, I've had great results using Purge Soul. YYMV.
If you're really hurting you might consider pulling in an Eversor assassin to pop up and charge shooty squads the turn you deep strike in. If they fall-back, they can't shoot.
In my humble opinion you're going too shooty. GKs have incredible melee with the Nemesis d3 wounds. You've probably played a lot more games with GK than I have, but I find my shooting to be completely lackluster in terms of removing the targets I care about. I expect to get out-shot in every game, so I've been thinking a lot about how to give myself a turn post-deepstrike to get in charge range. That points me at the Callidus & Eversor assassins.
Grandmaster with halberd+psycannon
5 Paladins
1 Apothecary
1 Stormraven with MM, Lascannons and hurricane bolters
5 Purgators with 4 psycannons
5 Purgators with 4 psycannons
1 Dreadknight with Heavy Incinerator and Greatsword (deepstriking)
2 Razorbacks with assault cannons
Hey Rihgu, I've had great results using Purge Soul. YYMV.
If you're really hurting you might consider pulling in an Eversor assassin to pop up and charge shooty squads the turn you deep strike in. If they fall-back, they can't shoot.
In my humble opinion you're going too shooty. GKs have incredible melee with the Nemesis d3 wounds. You've probably played a lot more games with GK than I have, but I find my shooting to be completely lackluster in terms of removing the targets I care about. I expect to get out-shot in every game, so I've been thinking a lot about how to give myself a turn post-deepstrike to get in charge range. That points me at the Callidus & Eversor assassins.
I'm no expert, but that's what I'd try
And this is close to my thoughts. If we want to shoot, probably best to take allies. We're a melee force.
Seizeman wrote: Doomglaive dread uses a heavy psycanon, the same that the dreadknights use, but with 2+ BS. It has a shorter range than the autocannon, of course.
Everyone is praising psilencers on strike squads but I think they are awful. If you move, which you are going to do most of the time (disembarking, deepstriking and gateofinfinitying count as moving), they do very little more than the storm bolter. For that, you are loosing your falchions. Flachions are worth at least 7 points, so the psycannon is actually not cheap at all. You are giving up all your combat power (which is a lot) for a little shooting.
Grey knights are a really powerful offensive army, but not a very good defensive one. You are paying 8 points more than a normal marine for the same thoughness, and the only way that is going to pay off is if you maximise your damage. For that, your need your strike squads to deal damage both in the shooting phase and in combat. If you charge a single time with a strike squad, you are dealing more damage than what the extra power from the psilencers would do the whole game.
If you want a unit to sit back inmobile and shoot, don't use strike squads, use dreadnoughts and the like.
At the moment, shooting is more meaningful in 8e than melee, which means Psilencers are more useful than Falchions. Bearing in mind local meta, of course.
I am also in the boat of shooting > melee. 4 S4 AP0 is producing more results than 2 S4 AP-2 to me. Especially because charging can be lackluster in this edition.
Yes, I am of the opinion all models that only have 1 power should take gate. This is because at any point in the game you might want to teleport the unit out of combat across the board to an unsecured objective. Yes, I understand it's only one unit per turn. All of them should normally be casting smite.
Round 1: World eaters with Demon backup. Tabled him on turn 3. (15-0) Round 2: Grey knights in two waves near tabled him then his paladins plus drago came in on turn 2. At that point, I killed everything but drago and 1 squad of paladins. Was left with 1 storm raven. Final score (10-7). Round 3: Primaris Marines with Landraider and 2 razorbacks as backup. I cleared a huge amount but at the end was down to dreadknight plus 1 squad. Used Gate of infinity, to save a surrounded squad to take a 2pt objective. Technically lost the match. (6-8).
Why Crowe? I've been struggling to understand his benefit with no AP on his sword.
I take it you had all the squads in the stormravens, for a turn two drop? Because if you gate more than 9'' away, then move six, you're still out of range for the 3'' purifier smite.
In practice, did the heavy psycannon work out given that it imparts a negative to hit modifier if you move the dreadknight?
I took Crowe because his smite is equivalent to a purifier squad. And the stormravens need to be able to fit a HQ unit.
On game 1, I brought in the Dreadknight on turn 3 and then forgot that it was on the table for the rest of that turn. On game 2, I brought it on Turn 1 and spent quite a bit of time killing 1 squad of intercepters and 1 dreadknight with it. On game 3, I brought it in on turn 2, held an objective and pretty much killed 2 squads on it's side of the table over 2 turns. Then I elected to keep that objective making my points (2 Objectives + Slay warlord + First Blood = 6pts).
Remember, top thing to do in any game is play the objectives over play to wipe out your opponent.
Youn wrote: Well, just won this weekends FLGS tournament. Was pretty easy to pick up objectives and still put out enough firepower with the following list:
Yes, I am of the opinion all models that only have 1 power should take gate. This is because at any point in the game you might want to teleport the unit out of combat across the board to an unsecured objective. Yes, I understand it's only one unit per turn. All of them should normally be casting smite.
FYI, Dreads only know Smite (cannot have Gate) and Crowe only knows 1 Sanctic power.
Only used smite the entire time anyways. the only squad power i used that wasn't Smite was Gate in the last turn to on a purifier squad of 1 guy to take an objective on the other side of the map. Crowe actually died to Vulcan and in his death action killed Vulcan.
Youn wrote: Well, just won this weekends FLGS tournament. Was pretty easy to pick up objectives and still put out enough firepower with the following list:
Yes, I am of the opinion all models that only have 1 power should take gate. This is because at any point in the game you might want to teleport the unit out of combat across the board to an unsecured objective. Yes, I understand it's only one unit per turn. All of them should normally be casting smite.
FYI, Dreads only know Smite (cannot have Gate) and Crowe only knows 1 Sanctic power.
Which book are the rules for the doomglaive in? I ask because when I search on forgeworld for it, it just comes up with Mark IV grey knight dreadnought armour.
I guess I'm just a little confused as to what makes something a Doomglaive exactly
The doomglaive is in the new FW index: adeptus astartes.
It is a regular venerable dreadnought but with an extra psychic power. It wields a doomglaive (basically a cheaper and better dreadnought close combat weapon) and a heavy psycannon. It can also replace It's storm bolter with an incinerator. WIth the storm bolter it comes at 168 points which makes it the cheaper and better choice if you want a versatile (not pure shooting) dreadnought.
It's close to being as effective with shooting because the heavy psycannon is 6 shots. While it has shorter range of also can carry an incinerator which is great for overwatch. Not to mention it can actually fight effectively I combat with it's D6 damage and no hit penalty.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What thoughts do you guys have on adding in Scions (as a fluffy inquisitorial force). The Taurox and Taurox Prime seem like good vehicles this edition. Loading up some scions with Plasma or jist taking them bare bones to backfield babysit seems like a fluffy snd effective option to fill out a cheap battalion for the extra command points.
I was mostly trying something when I put those normal dreadnoughts into play. They used smite and each were dropped from the stormraven on turn 2. The melta shots were used in 2 of the games to finish off land raiders. As you basically drop those dreadnought with the understanding they are going to get focused down. Which for me was fine as I would rather someone focus down a generic dreadnought then a squad of purifiers.
Youn wrote: I was mostly trying something when I put those normal dreadnoughts into play. They used smite and each were dropped from the stormraven on turn 2. The melta shots were used in 2 of the games to finish off land raiders. As you basically drop those dreadnought with the understanding they are going to get focused down. Which for me was fine as I would rather someone focus down a generic dreadnought then a squad of purifiers.
I think Dreads are an excellent addition to GK forces in this edition. I plan on taking two Doomglaive variants in my force. I like the idea of a small elite force even if its not the MOST competitive. I think a knight would be a great addition to GKs for a beefy shooting platform.
The real issue with the Doomglaive is you need Methods of killing vehicles. A psycannon isn't going to do it effectively.
Note: I own 6 dreadnoughts. 1 Doomglaive, 2 Multi-melta + Close Combat, 2 twin powerfists, 1 Plasma + Close Combat. The Multi-melta ones seem to be the most effective that I own.
The only vehicles you need to kill are light transport vehicles which die easily enough to psycannons, autocannons and bolters.
For the heavy shooty vehicles, you don't kill them, you ram them with your transports so they can't shoot. It's impossible for grey knights to have enough heavy fire to kill more than one or two heavy vehicles, so it is pointless to try solving the problem that way. Just clear their infantry wall (which grey knights do extremely well) and charge.
Fielding 2 Stormravens I have killed a Landraider, 2 predators and 2 dreadnoughts in one fight. I have had to kill an imperial knight.
Turn 1: 2 Multi-melta + 4 missles for vehicles. 4 hurricane bolters + 2 twin AC for troops. Turn 2: 2 Multi-melta from Dreadnoughts + any surviving of the above.
You will kill heavy vehicles.
And generally speaking you don't ram anything with a storm raven.
What do you guys think about bringing some Lascannon Tarantula Sentry guns? Each is a individual unit that autonomously targets vehicles 60 points for 2 lascannon shots at BS4 sounds pretty good.
Oddly enough they take the Fast Attack slot so we don't really care about filling that slot with single model units.
Also did FW say anything about how we can't add the Grey Knight <Chapter> keyword to ANY of the Space Marine vehicles?
While talking about FW, is it only the stuff in the Gery Knight section you can take as the poster above mentions I.e. Could you take a leviathan dread as Grey Knight?
Also what's the tactical advantage of Grey Knight Dreads over the DK?
Also what's the tactical advantage of Grey Knight Dreads over the DK?
The dreadnought deals more damage and is cheaper, while the DK is tougher. Tactically I think they act differently. The dreadnought is not tough enough to be deployed alone, so its job is to escort and support the main battle line providing reliable dmg against medium and heavy armor. On the other side, the Dreadknight works as a flanking unit, deepstriking and distracting your opponent. The problem with the dreadknight is you don't need more than a couple deepstrikers and for that job paladins are a lot better.
Also what's the tactical advantage of Grey Knight Dreads over the DK?
The dreadnought deals more damage and is cheaper, while the DK is tougher. Tactically I think they act differently. The dreadnought is not tough enough to be deployed alone, so its job is to escort and support the main battle line providing reliable dmg against medium and heavy armor. On the other side, the Dreadknight works as a flanking unit, deepstriking and distracting your opponent. The problem with the dreadknight is you don't need more than a couple deepstrikers and for that job paladins are a lot better.
Thanks, does the FW (chapter) allow grey knights or is it just the vehicles listed under Grey Knights that you can take?
Thanks, does the FW (chapter) allow grey knights or is it just the vehicles listed under Grey Knights that you can take?
I don't think so. The regular index does not allow it, as in you can't use "grey knights" as your chapter to have bikes or predators, so it should works the same for FW.
Thanks, does the FW (chapter) allow grey knights or is it just the vehicles listed under Grey Knights that you can take?
I don't think so. The regular index does not allow it, as in you can't use "grey knights" as your chapter to have bikes or predators, so it should works the same for FW.
This is correct. The only units GK are allowed to utilize are those marked with GK or those the index specifically states can be taken as <Grey Knights>. They can still be used but they don't get the Grey Knights label.
Which is an interesting choice because that means GK lost access to a decent amount of Forgeworld models. Might just be that FW quality though which is present in the rest of the index.
Question, if I have a landraider in close combat, and I use gate of infinity to teleport him out, can he shoot that turn? I think he can because he didn't fall back out of combat
Thanks, does the FW (chapter) allow grey knights or is it just the vehicles listed under Grey Knights that you can take?
I don't think so. The regular index does not allow it, as in you can't use "grey knights" as your chapter to have bikes or predators, so it should works the same for FW.
This is correct. The only units GK are allowed to utilize are those marked with GK or those the index specifically states can be taken as <Grey Knights>. They can still be used but they don't get the Grey Knights label.
Gibs55 wrote: While talking about FW, is it only the stuff in the Gery Knight section you can take as the poster above mentions I.e. Could you take a leviathan dread as Grey Knight?
Also what's the tactical advantage of Grey Knight Dreads over the DK?
This is flawed thinking, then that means Blood Angels/Dark Angels and space wolves cannot take any other the forgeworld units either. The forgeworld units don't say they belong to any spcific list imo.
Having looked through the Forgewolrd Index, I can honestly say, nothing in the directs what units can be taken by what factions other then keywords. Since the Grey Knight sections says we can change keyword <Chapter> to grey Knight, I guess we can take all the space marine vehicles in addition to the GK specific things.
Dreadnoughts bring much better firepower imo then a dreadknight, where as a dreadknight has mobility and better close combat.
They are going to have to clarify those Indexes. As obvious choices aren't obvious. For example: Greater Blight Drone has <Legion> which means technically by the book, DEATH GUARD cannot have Greater Blight Drones.
The grey knights section of the index specifies wich units can change the <chaper> keyword for the <grey knights> one, it does not give you freedom to change it in any other instance.
If you could take forgeworld astartes units as "grey knights", then you could take any index space marine unit, like centurions and bikes as "grey knights" too. And no one is going to seriously argue that we can take every unit in the index.
So no, unless GW specifically corrects it, Grey Knights can't take generic astartes FW units.
Seizeman wrote: The grey knights section of the index specifies wich units can change the <chaper> keyword for the <grey knights> one, it does not give you freedom to change it in any other instance.
If you could take forgeworld astartes units as "grey knights", then you could take any index space marine unit, like centurions and bikes as "grey knights" too. And no one is going to seriously argue that we can take every unit in the index.
So no, unless GW specifically corrects it, Grey Knights can't take generic astartes FW units.
That's what the wording states, however by that logic the Space Wolves (who have a similar entry in the Imperium 1 index) would also be denied taking anything at all from the FW index, in spite of being a 1st Founding Legion. I definitely don't think that was the intention.
It wasn't spelled out, but I think the limitations spelled out in the start of the GK and SW entries refer to units from that index only. We shall have to wait for clarification.
I'm confused why Grey Knights can't take any of the generic astartes FW units in their army. I don't have the book so I don't know but do those units not have the Imperium faction keyword? I thought all that mattered when building an army was that every unit needed to share at least one faction keyword.
I agree that it is probably not the intention, but right now there's no doubt rules wise that they can't take FW units.
Althought it could actually be on purpose, as those chapters have already a lot of unique stuff and are very peculiar about which equipment they do or don't like to use. But that's probably not the case, because it does not sell models.
So ideally they should clarify it in an early FAQ, along some other stuff (in fact FW indexes need a ton of errata corrections).
Hakumei wrote: I'm confused why Grey Knights can't take any of the generic astartes FW units in their army. I don't have the book so I don't know but do those units not have the Imperium faction keyword? I thought all that mattered when building an army was that every unit needed to share at least one faction keyword.
You can take whatever you want, FW, Space marine, Astra Militarum or whatever. The issue is that they can't necessarily share the Chapter Keyword, so you can't put your marines in a FW transport for example.
Just an administrative issue, and should be cleared up by Tournament Org's if not by GW/FW. I wouldn't be put off buying more Forgeworld for my GKs in the meantime (looks like I need another dreadnought anyway )
If the Relic Mastodon Super-Heavy Siege Transport is allowed to take GREY KNIGHT in place of <CHAPTER>. Then you could start with 1 Brotherhood champion outside of the vehicle and 35 Purifiers inside the vehicle with Crowe. On first psychic phase of the game teleport the Mastodon to 9" from an opponents army.
I figure this is the best place to ask since everyone here is a Grey Knights player, but do Grey Knight Power Armor models come on the older small marine bases or the new updated sizes for marines? Most of my Grey Knights are un-assembled and I bought them back in 6th edition so I was wondering if I should switch to the new base size if that's actually legal.
You know you can probably take FW units as Grey Knights. They have nothing prohibiting it and the Grey Knight keyword on the psycannon vehicles is there to prevent others from taking them.
For instance, the Minotaur have their own vehicle. It would be too much of a departure for FW to to say GK lose these toys they had explicit access to before.
Youn wrote: Well, just won this weekends FLGS tournament. Was pretty easy to pick up objectives and still put out enough firepower with the following list:
What do you think about swapping Dreadnoughts by Venerable Dreadnoughts and some Hammers by falchions?
The BS 2+ is really good with multi-melta plus the feel no pain should be nice.
grimz wrote: I was looking to round out my GK force with some allies. Haven't played since 5th, was looking at It or Mechanicus, what would people recommend?
I'm worried about antitank, and it seems my old autocannon dreads aren't as good as they used to be in 5th.
As a lifetime marine player no idea where to start with IG/Mech
The army you like the look of will always be far more important, no one can tell you what that is. If you'd rather just know what is super hot OP right now, Its Imperial Guard.
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I've got a 1K points doubles Tourney coming up. FAQ's will be legal, 2 detachments max, all other rules the same. Not sure on team mate but will be one of either Marines, IG, Tau or Necrons, I will have some say in choosing.
Any ideas for a good combo list at such low points? I'm struggling to put bodies on the table as my collection consists of mostly Terminators.
With grey knights, the best antitank choices are stormraven, melee and more melee.
There's no way for almost any army to kill multiple vehicles in a cost efficient way, as vehicles are very cheap and heavy weapons very expensive, so the way to deal with vehicles is to ignore them or tie them in melee. This is specially true for grey knights.
So the answer against artillery is just to charge (transports are good for this).
As for targets you can't ignore and must kill fast, they are basically tough melee units like dreadnoughts or monstruous tyranids. Against those you can use the aforementioned stormraven, as it packs enough firepower to blow up almost anything in a turn and it complements the grey knights playstyle nicely. You can also use dreadnoughts (specially of the doomglaive variety) in melee, because, agains those kind of threats, you will be in range to charge them. Grand masters (specially Draigo) and Paladins (give them at least a couple of hammers) can also work the same way.
And as Spartacus said, don't take allies just for their gameplay power, do it only if you like them. But honestly, I don't think grey knights need allies, and single faction armies are generally better, and it will be even more true as codex get released, with more additions to single factions.
Seizeman wrote: With grey knights, the best antitank choices are stormraven, melee and more melee.
There's no way for almost any army to kill multiple vehicles in a cost efficient way, as vehicles are very cheap and heavy weapons very expensive, so the way to deal with vehicles is to ignore them or tie them in melee. This is specially true for grey knights.
So the answer against artillery is just to charge (transports are good for this).
As for targets you can't ignore and must kill fast, they are basically tough melee units like dreadnoughts or monstruous tyranids. Against those you can use the aforementioned stormraven, as it packs enough firepower to blow up almost anything in a turn and it complements the grey knights playstyle nicely. You can also use dreadnoughts (specially of the doomglaive variety) in melee, because, agains those kind of threats, you will be in range to charge them. Grand masters (specially Draigo) and Paladins (give them at least a couple of hammers) can also work the same way.
And as Spartacus said, don't take allies just for their gameplay power, do it only if you like them. But honestly, I don't think grey knights need allies, and single faction armies are generally better, and it will be even more true as codex get released, with more additions to single factions.
Thanks for advice I'll check out these doomglaive dreadnoughts. I've got some DKOK which I was running as henchmen before ad I really like that aesthetic. I don't think I really want to buy more marines so I'll be looking at some kinda Guard or Mechanicus if I can pick up cheap.
Seizeman wrote: With grey knights, the best antitank choices are stormraven, melee and more melee.
So..we don't use the Dakkaraven? I thought it would be the best loadout.
But to be honest I wondered why most people were eager to add more Bolter/Assaultcannons to a force that can spam rapidfire like no one else, but lacks the options for anti tank.
Yes, grey knights are now great vs light infantry. Massive amount of bolter fire plus the assault cannons on razorbacks is enough against most stuff. That's why I prefer to go full antitank with the raven: lascannon and melta. It still has the hurricane bolters for an extra 24 bolter shots (and so ridiculously cheap).
Honestly I think that the way grey knights play right now is flavorful, and represents exactly how they would do in the lore. They use massive bolter fire to clear the chaff and make way so they can charge the big demon lord and beat it with a hammer in epic hand to hand combat, all this achieved in a swift and perfectly executed alpha strike.
Most armies that I've seen must play how they are supposed to act in the lore to be effective, which I think shows the great work the development team has done and they does not get enough recognition for it.
It is a bit of a downer that we have to start with several units on the field. Having to put purgators, purifiers, and dreadnoughts on the table always felt lame since Grey Knight stories rarely ever set them up as fighting pitched battles where there'd be a battle line vs a battle line. Now that the rules literally force us to keep 50% of our army on the field to begin with it's ruined the "teleport in, kill everything, teleport out" flavor that inspired me to get Grey Knights in the first place.
Allies help with the fluff too! Have a Space Marine chapter, like the Exorcists, be your on the field units. Then Deep Strike in a Grey Knight detachment.
Plus, Centurion Destroyers solve a lot of anti-tank problems.
Audustum wrote: Allies help with the fluff too! Have a Space Marine chapter, like the Exorcists, be your on the field units. Then Deep Strike in a Grey Knight detachment.
Plus, Centurion Destroyers solve a lot of anti-tank problems.
Yea, that's what I'm moving towards doing. Problem is, my 2 armies are Grey Knights and Deathwatch at the moment, and i have ground forces for neither, haha.
Once I get my 40k paint pile down, I'm buying some Astra Militarum (but, by the time I actually get there, plastic SoB might be released, and I'll have all 3 military arms of the Inquisition!)
Allies are a fine way to satisfy Matched Play reinforcements rules. But for those devoted to a pure GK list I've found Interceptors are the perfect answer to that problem.
I think I will stay with my usual army build for now, after I work out a legal set up within points: Draigo, Libby/Voldus, GKT, Interceptors, DKs, and a Knight Errant. Baring take being remotely viable, I'll jigger the list with other options.
After many years of fantasy and aos, me and the guys have decided to join 40k with the release of 8th ed.
I will start a GK army and the rest will mostly go chaos and xeno scum.
I have been reading through this awesome thread as well as this https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Grey_Knights(8E)
to get an idea of what units to build and how to play. I've come up with a list that I think will be fun (not OP) to play/paint and that look good on the board.
It looks like this :
the idea is to have paladins in the stormraven, dread, voldus and one strike squad start on the board. While the other 4 strike squads and captain deepstrike, and start smiting, shooting things up. Stormraven can move up fast with paladins, while shooting high priority targets with lascanons and meltas. Voldus will try to gate and hammer the dread up the board so he can get into combat ASAP. Voldus and last strike squad can then stay back and grab objektives or mob up what ever is left after the alpha strike.
As I have never played GK's or any 40k games in general. I would greatly appriciate some advise. Is this list/ tactic vaiable or should I go in a different direction.
Our group is mostly friendly, non competitive (ofc we still play to win
My view is this. It'll probably work really well a few times or against new opponents, and then the weaknesses will become apparent. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with it, but I think you may be overestimating your alpha strike.
Point 1: You have ten drops in total (9 for the Paladins in the Raven), and therefore probably won't go first against the majority of armies unless you're playing ITC tournament rules regarding deployment and first turn. I'm in the UK so it's not something I'm familiar with as we play with the core rules. So your opponent is going to have one or two really juicy targets (the Raven and the DreadKnight) to spend their entire first turn shooting at.
Point 2: You have one single ranged anti-armour unit on the board, and that's the Melta Stormraven. A sensible opponent will spend almost any required effort to deny it to you in turn one, and therefore allow his vehicles to move and act with impunity
Point 3: You are more fragile than you think with PAGK. My main regular opponent (Craftworld Eldar, non Ynnari) packs somewhere in the neighbourhood of 20 different guns that will simply deny you a save, or force you to roll a 6+ save for those PAGK.
I think it's a decent enough build, but I think it's far more situational than you think.
Let me give you an example. If I was facing you, I'd place one of my two landraiders on each side of the center of my deployment area, and my own dreadnought and stormraven in the center. Wherever you put that Stormraven, I'm moving one, and gating the other Landraider towards it, and then dropping 8-12 lascannon's into it until it's dead. Probably even get Draigo out of his landraider to let both raiders re-roll their misses. If there's anything left, I'm shooting the rest at your Dreadknight.
please don't misunderstand me, your list is perfectly viable. But it has it's weaknesses, be aware of them when you face your opponents.
Crow, and the Purifiers will start on the board embarked on the Stormraven. Draigo, Terminators and the Dreadknights will be placed in Deepstrike reserves. As I most likely get first turn, the Raven will swoop up the board right infront of my enemy. Everything will deepstrike close to the enemy aswell, with draigo in the center offering a 6'' bubble of reroll goodness. As soon as possible the purifiers will get out and try to get into smite range.
This alphastrike should deal a good amount of damage to the enemy, allowing me to go after objectives with gating units while others stay in close combat.
You won't be able to deepstrike all of those things, as you need at least 50% on the table for matched play. Just put gate on a dreadknight or something and he can shunt up like in 7th Edition.
Also, I'd be hesitant to ever recommend the Plasma Cannons on your Stormraven compared to Lascannons or Assault Cannons. Unless you know you're gonna be facing lots of Terminators all the time they seem sub-optimal, not to mention the risk of self harm.
pinecone77 wrote: I've been considering a GK force, with Sisters. Start the SOB on the field, DS the Knights. Workable? Seems plenty fluffy, but can it win?
GK with Tempestus Scions would be fluffier especially if you added in an inquistor and played them as an "inquisition force".
I've been building lists based in this because of the cheapness of the Scions and the ability of the Taurox Primes compared to their points.
After many years of fantasy and aos, me and the guys have decided to join 40k with the release of 8th ed.
I will start a GK army and the rest will mostly go chaos and xeno scum.
Spoiler:
I have been reading through this awesome thread as well as this https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Grey_Knights(8E)
to get an idea of what units to build and how to play. I've come up with a list that I think will be fun (not OP) to play/paint and that look good on the board.
It looks like this :
the idea is to have paladins in the stormraven, dread, voldus and one strike squad start on the board. While the other 4 strike squads and captain deepstrike, and start smiting, shooting things up. Stormraven can move up fast with paladins, while shooting high priority targets with lascanons and meltas. Voldus will try to gate and hammer the dread up the board so he can get into combat ASAP. Voldus and last strike squad can then stay back and grab objektives or mob up what ever is left after the alpha strike.
As I have never played GK's or any 40k games in general. I would greatly appriciate some advise. Is this list/ tactic vaiable or should I go in a different direction.
Our group is mostly friendly, non competitive (ofc we still play to win
Cheers!
Looks good to me, especially in a casual setting. I would probably switch out the psycannon on the DK for a psilencer since it has more shots and you have a very elite army. Try to make sure you can deal with a lot of bodies effectively. Try not to rely on morale to help you too much because a fair amount of armies have ways to mitigate losses (and everyone can just use 2 CP if it's that important)
I regret to inform you that the Mathammer of page 9 is completely wrong. The problem is not in the calculations, which are correct, but on the assumptions you make to decide that a weapon is "more efficient" than another weapon.
The problem is that you can not calculate the output of any weapon considering its cost alone. To have a weapon in your army, you need to pay for the space marine that is using it and these space marines came in units with certain restrictions (e.g. a certain amount of heavy weapons per squad).
Following your logical, the most efficient weapon of all Astartes is the bolter, as they cost 0 points so they perform an infinite amount of damage per point spent. Just as an example of the absurd of your reasoning.
The correct way to approach this issue (weapon efficiency) is to consider a unit equipped with one set of weapons or another. Or in other words, what are the most efficient way to equip our squads?
For example: how is the performance of a 10 man Strike unit with only stormbolters (210 points) compared with the same unit with 2 psycannons (234 points)? This is expressed as damage output per each 100 points spent.
If you do it for the different scenarios, it is always more point efficient to pay for the psycannons in terms of ranged damage output with the exception of low T and S targets (e.g. imperial guard or similar). Another considerations would be if you want these extra swords or not or if you want/need the extra points to have more units.
In my case, I am moving again my psycannons from the shelf to the table...
Godeskian wrote: My view is this. It'll probably work really well a few times or against new opponents, and then the weaknesses will become apparent. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with it, but I think you may be overestimating your alpha strike.
Point 1: You have ten drops in total (9 for the Paladins in the Raven), and therefore probably won't go first against the majority of armies unless you're playing ITC tournament rules regarding deployment and first turn. I'm in the UK so it's not something I'm familiar with as we play with the core rules. So your opponent is going to have one or two really juicy targets (the Raven and the DreadKnight) to spend their entire first turn shooting at.
Point 2: You have one single ranged anti-armour unit on the board, and that's the Melta Stormraven. A sensible opponent will spend almost any required effort to deny it to you in turn one, and therefore allow his vehicles to move and act with impunity
Point 3: You are more fragile than you think with PAGK. My main regular opponent (Craftworld Eldar, non Ynnari) packs somewhere in the neighbourhood of 20 different guns that will simply deny you a save, or force you to roll a 6+ save for those PAGK.
I think it's a decent enough build, but I think it's far more situational than you think.
Let me give you an example. If I was facing you, I'd place one of my two landraiders on each side of the center of my deployment area, and my own dreadnought and stormraven in the center. Wherever you put that Stormraven, I'm moving one, and gating the other Landraider towards it, and then dropping 8-12 lascannon's into it until it's dead. Probably even get Draigo out of his landraider to let both raiders re-roll their misses. If there's anything left, I'm shooting the rest at your Dreadknight.
please don't misunderstand me, your list is perfectly viable. But it has it's weaknesses, be aware of them when you face your opponents.
Look forward to hearing how your games go.
Thank you for the input. What units would you then Change in the list? Go for more elite infantry or more heavy stuff? Cheers
Thank you for the input. What units would you then Change in the list? Go for more elite infantry or more heavy stuff? Cheers
Well, the thing is that whatever style of play you're going for, commit to it. If you want that Alpha strike, make it one to burn the enemy off the field.
For instance
HQ Crowe and a Brother Captain
Troops - 6 x five man strike knights
Fast attack - 3 x interceptors
Heavy - 3 x Dreadnought with Lascannon and CCW
For about 1909 points. Probably less if you take SM Dreads rather than GK dreadnoughts.
Hide everything on your enemy's turn 1. On your turn one, six strike squads and the brother captain come down, three interceptor squads shunt forward, Crowe gates himself forward and the three dreadnoughts walk forward firing their lascannons
You get 11 smites, 90 - 180 stormbolter shots from the strikes and interceptors, 6 lascannon shots and potentially a charge or two.
The best piece of advice I've ever been given is 'Go heavy, or go home'. In context it means that you have to commit fully to your concept. Me, I love my heavy vehicles. My list runs two landraiders and a stormaven. Sometimes three landraiders, because against almost all lists, that's more armour than they can easily crack.
if you want to go Alpha Strike, then I'd go for the absolute maximum first turn damage Alpha strike that I can manage.
Of course, you mentioned that you play friendlies. This is.....not... a friendly list by any stretch of the imagination
There's no effective way to play grey knights that is not alpha strike. You don't have neither the range firepower nor the staying power to win any other way. You must play aggressive to win.
But don't be tricked, deep strike as a main strategy won't work. If you face scouts, defensive walls of cheap troops or the opponent just steals your initiative, you will loose.
In the above list, for example, if the opponent has defensive measures, you won't be able to deep strike effectively turn one. You will have to deploy in your deployment zone or use the interceptors to clean the chaff, and then you have power armor troops in the open, wich will be destroyed and the rest of your forces will not be powerful enough for the main strike.
Because of this, I think you absolutely need an armored force on the ground. Razorbacks and stormraven (you can use land raiders too) are very efficient and will give you enough firepower to clear the roadblocks (the stormraven can double as antiarmor) while protecting the squads inside from the fire and giving them mobility. Then you have given space for your deep strike units to deploy and sorround the enemy. These units will often be isolated, so they must be durable and damaging, so for this you use paladins, dreadnoughts or dreadknights. Between the troops disembarking from the transports and the deep strikers you execute the alpha strike, being able to attack where it hurts the most and without having suffered too much damage.
In this edition there are not OP units, so spam or unflexible strategies won't work. You have to use all the tools the codex (or index) offers you.
Thank you for the input. What units would you then Change in the list? Go for more elite infantry or more heavy stuff? Cheers
The best piece of advice I've ever been given is 'Go heavy, or go home'. In context it means that you have to commit fully to your concept. Me, I love my heavy vehicles. My list runs two landraiders and a stormaven. Sometimes three landraiders, because against almost all lists, that's more armour than they can easily crack.
if you want to go Alpha Strike, then I'd go for the absolute maximum first turn damage Alpha strike that I can manage.
Of course, you mentioned that you play friendlies. This is.....not... a friendly list by any stretch of the imagination
"Go heavy, or go home"- Allrighty then! I think I get what you mean. How is this then?
Stormraven #1 will contain #1 purifier squad and the captain
Stormraven #2 will contain #2 purifier squad
That will give me 2 drops in deployment, which should grant me 1'st turn start, unless my opponent gets a 6 on the initiative.
But let's suppose I get first turn. Stormravens move up, the terminators, dreadknight and voldus deepstrike 9" from enemies, everything smites, shootes, charge and punch stuff in the face.
From turn 2, captain and purifiers can disembark, and start throwing even more mortal wounds around, with the range bonus from the captain.
What do you think is this a proper alpha strike and great way to lose some friends?
Thank you for the input. What units would you then Change in the list? Go for more elite infantry or more heavy stuff? Cheers
The best piece of advice I've ever been given is 'Go heavy, or go home'. In context it means that you have to commit fully to your concept. Me, I love my heavy vehicles. My list runs two landraiders and a stormaven. Sometimes three landraiders, because against almost all lists, that's more armour than they can easily crack.
if you want to go Alpha Strike, then I'd go for the absolute maximum first turn damage Alpha strike that I can manage.
Of course, you mentioned that you play friendlies. This is.....not... a friendly list by any stretch of the imagination
"Go heavy, or go home"- Allrighty then! I think I get what you mean. How is this then?
Stormraven #1 will contain #1 purifier squad and the captain
Stormraven #2 will contain #2 purifier squad
That will give me 2 drops in deployment, which should grant me 1'st turn start, unless my opponent gets a 6 on the initiative.
But let's suppose I get first turn. Stormravens move up, the terminators, dreadknight and voldus deepstrike 9" from enemies, everything smites, shootes, charge and punch stuff in the face.
From turn 2, captain and purifiers can disembark, and start throwing even more mortal wounds around, with the range bonus from the captain.
What do you think is this a proper alpha strike and great way to lose some friends?
Thanks again
Units you put in deep strike thingy (teleportarium for GK?) count as drops for counting who goes first.
I think GK suffer from a lack of heavy firepower. The best way to get this is what I've already seen in the thread, Militarum Tempestus meltas; or AM Heavy Weapon Squads. I've got 12 models with 5 lascannons and 7 mortars, joined with a Commander to give re-roll hits to the Las (213 pts for 5 las and 7d6 mortar shots per turn with re-rolls).
It's really cheap, which is good for us bc our stuff is expensive!
I think you cannot depend on getting charges from Deep Strike. The 9" charge has a 28% chance of working, which means only 1 out of every 4 units is gonna make it. BOOOOO that's terrible.
Adding Veil of Time to the list (I use a Biker Libby) makes that clutch unit much more likely to get stuck in.
I have Voldus, a Falchion Strike Squad, and a Doomglaive Dread in a Stormraven to get a T2 charge. My opponents have always targeted the Raven heavily, but never managed to kill it T1, which means I do get my charge. The hardest part is positioning with the Raven, I'm still learning how to do that to get disembarks most efficiently.
My next purchase will be a second Raven, and I'll have to magnetize a psycannon arm and a Doomglaive arm to go on one of my Riflemen. I'm super excited about a double-Raven list!
Yea I've been toying with the melta Scions idea for a while. Seems like a quick cheap way to get some quick deploying damage for dealing with heavies.
I plan on running 2 Doomglaives they really seem on paper like they are going to be pretty effective because they can cover multiple roles it seems. And only 2 less shots than a Rifleman Dread but with close combat effectiveness and the ability to get an incinerator is huge.
What is everyone's thoughts on MSU Paladins. No heavy weapons. Hammer paragons. By running 3 man units you can create a little target saturation and gets you more hammer paragons.
Paladins are an aggressive tanking unit. In units of 3, the opponent can charge them separately and they are not durable or dangerous enough in that case. Dreadnoughts are not nearly as durable so they don't fill the same role at all.
Secondly, buffs are more effective on a big unit. Paladins are one of the few units in the army that can afford to take hammerhand instead of Gate of infinity. You probably want your GM close by so he can GoI them, and they can hammerhand the GM if he wants to crush a heavy target, and are themselves the best unit to receive the buff because of their number of attacks. In the same way, some times you will want to gate them elsewhere, and if they are split in several small units you won't be able to teleport them all. Also, you will oftentimes want to deploy the GM next to your main force so they benefit from his aura, and you want to include as many units as possible in its range. This is easier to do if you have a single unit compared with small ones. They also work better with an apothecary.
Lastly, it uses less deployments to determine who goes first, which can be a pretty big deal. Having extra paragons is nice, but not worth the trouble.
Apothecaries are useless really. For their price just take nearly 2 more Paladins, it sounds nice being able to make to make a expensive model come back to life but what you really want to use him for is healing the big characters in your army. Run a apothecary with Draigo while being selective about what can legally shoot him and you'll be preserving a much larger part of your army than you realize.
Looking at a small group of Grey Knights to add to my other armies - they'd probably be able to all teleport in without needing to take a tax (which I'd be taking as my main force anyways). How should I organise these? Any additions to the roster? Ideal weapons on some?
Brother-Captain/Librarian with storm bolter and Force Sword
6 Grey Knight Terminators (could be Paladins) - 4 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 1 other weapon (so Falchions, Stave or Sword), Psycannon and Incinerator/Psilencer
Ancient (weapon undetermined)
Apothecary (weapon undetermined)
Basically, what would the ideal weapons be for the Ancient and Apothecary? What about the 6th Terminator? They would have the other special weapon as well as any other melee weapon.
Which works better with the loadout as I said - Captain or Librarian?
Quickjager wrote: Apothecaries are useless really. For their price just take nearly 2 more Paladins, it sounds nice being able to make to make a expensive model come back to life but what you really want to use him for is healing the big characters in your army. Run a apothecary with Draigo while being selective about what can legally shoot him and you'll be preserving a much larger part of your army than you realize.
Actually apothecaries are really really good. They cost 35 points more than a regular paladin, but have 5 wounds, 4 attacks and WS2+. An apothecary with a hammer is 103 points, while 2 paladins with falchions are 110. The apothecary deals more damage than both paladins and is almost as durable. He is, point for point, more efficient than the regular paladins, and that's without considering his healing ability. So there's no reason not to upgrade a paladin to an apothecary in every unit of paladins if you can spare the points.
I have to disagree still, Grey Knights rely on their buffs more than most armies, taking 2 bodies has more benefits in the long run; Hammerhand, Ancient, Draigo; each important to consider since 2 of them are already in the army automatically. Furthermore size constraints are a real thing for us now with deepstriking, we can just tack those two additional bodies on a preexisting unit.
It has real potential use, but right now I can't see him as anything more than Draigo's bandage box.
I'm was tempted to run a list that was essentially Draigo's shiny dozen. 2 Stormravens, Draigo, 6 Apothecaries, 1 Ancient, and 1 Bro-cap. But honestly I doubt the list had legs to stand on.
The apothecary makes better use of the ancient and draigo auras than the two paladins do, so I don't know what's your point. You fail to realise that even discounting the healing ability and the extra smite, the apothecary hits harder and it's more survivable than the two paladins. You are just trying to argue with fact.
Funny how you disregard the apothecary but favour the ancient. The ancient does less damage than the apothecary unless you are buffing at least 3 more units, while being 40 points more expensive.
And if you can't afford the extra slot because of deep striking, you are just building your list wrong.
Is it a bad idea to make the kind of "deathstar" type unit with Draigo, Paladin Ancient, Apothecary, Paladins and maybe even a normal Libby for an extra crazy smite?
Or would it be better to split up those auras so that you have Draigo+Apothecary+Paladins, Paladin Ancient+Paladins and then maybe a GM+Paladin Ancient+Paladins.
I'm trying to write a 3k list for a big game and I'm struggling how best to use the terminator models.
Paladins are powerful enough already, they really don't need much help to do their job, adding too much would be overkill. Also they are slow, and if you tie too many points into them that can be an issue.
For small games (1500) I use just a 5-man squad with 2 hammers and Draigo, as his buff is really important for the alpha strike.
In 2000 points I use a second unit of 4 paladins (1 hammer) + an apothecary (hammer) so I have a better control of the field.
In a 3k game you can easily have 2 units of 4 or 5 paladins with an apothecary for each one plus Draigo and an extra HQ (probably a GM) and that would be very effective. With that many points you can have them ride stormravens or land raiders for increased mobility. If you don't have them ride the ravens, you can consider a 3rd unit, but generally they get redundant and not as useful past the second one.
I really don't like the ancient. For it to be efficient for its cost you have to buff at least 3 units (or 2 units and a character with a hammer), and even then he's not better than another unit of paladins or an apothecary + something. It's pretty hard to make a coordinated charge with paladins + several characters while keeping everyone inside the aura and honesly, if you are chargin with some units + a character you are already destroying most things.
I don't have land raider(s) available unfortunately. I do have 1 stormraven but I'm currently thinking about using it to transport Crowe+purifiers right into CC range for turn 2. The 2xD6 mortal wounds will be insane.
I don't want this to turn into an army list discussion but I definitely want to use Paladins in this army. They will be the core power that the dreadnaughts/dreadknights/stormraven/purifiers/strike squads will all rotate around.
The thing with paladins is they can't be the main damage dealers in your army.
If you use them on foot (deep strike) they deploy far enough from the enemy that they can't reliably charge, and then they only move 5", so the enemy can avoid their charge for a turn or two. Meanwhile they will only do damage by shooting, and they are not very efficient at it. That's why you take advantage of the zoning they provide. The paladins act as spiky walls closing on the enemy. The opponent can't pass through them and killing them requieres a ton of resources, leaving the rest of your army unharmed. So your opponent has to either let your paladins charge (wich is bad) or fall back through the bottleneck you have created (wich is also bad), having them in a bad possition where your main force will take advantage of it. That's why, while being a key part of the army, they have a specific role and are not standard damage dealers.
If you want Paladins to reliably charge and do damage from the start, you need a 300+ points transport, so the cost also prohibits them to be the core power of the army in this case.
Purifiers look really hard to use. They cost a lot and require a transport, so they can't realistically replace strikes. Once you have the strikes, Paladins and heavy support takes a higher priority than the purifiers, and then you are out of points. Also, they will inmediately die the moment they disembark, so although they are very powerful, they won't have many chances to prove it, and that's not considering them failing their smite or the opponent denying it. Their transport being destroyed also makes them pretty useless. All in all I don't see how to fit them in an army of 2000 point or less. They are really powerful, but I'm not sure it can compensate their low durability and narrowness. Has anyone been able to use them in a consistently efficient manner?
Can't disagree with the points you make. I'm only really considering them because this is a 3k list and I'd quite frankly like to see the offensive power of them+crowe. Much of the rest of my list at the moment consists of 3 dreadnoughts (autocannons), 3 dreadknights and 20 strikes (my model limit otherwise I'd take more).
That's why I think the paladins need to be the core as I don't have enough PAGKs to build that solid core.
In the future I am looking to add an imperial knight to my GK list but I'm not really sure how it fits in (both strategy and force organisation wise).
Force-wise you just take a Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment. Done. Doesn't even have the -1 CP of the other Auxiliaries.
I find the best Knights are ones that bring the heavy shooting Grey Knights lack. So Crusaders and Porphyrions (if you got the points for the latter since he runs about 800).
Ah cool, thanks Audustum I won't be able to get a knight done in time for this game but it is on my list for the future (once I also have money).
For this game I'm looking at playing with 20 PA guys (strikes or interceptors), ~30 Terminators/Paladins, 10 purifiers, 3 dreadnoughts, 3 dreadknights, 1 stormraven and characters (apothecary, voldus/librarian, draigo, crowe). From that I need to field 3k points. There are multiple other players in like a massive 12k point-a-side game so I'm looking to test how good GK are in 8th as well as just have some fun with my favourite marines.
Seizeman wrote: The apothecary makes better use of the ancient and draigo auras than the two paladins do, so I don't know what's your point. You fail to realise that even discounting the healing ability and the extra smite, the apothecary hits harder and it's more survivable than the two paladins. You are just trying to argue with fact.
Funny how you disregard the apothecary but favour the ancient. The ancient does less damage than the apothecary unless you are buffing at least 3 more units, while being 40 points more expensive.
And if you can't afford the extra slot because of deep striking, you are just building your list wrong.
Ancient doesn't work on a by a x unit basis. 2 min squads w/ an Ancient instantly do more damage than the Apothecary; since you obviously have other parts of the army an Ancient is better up until the moment everyone else is dead. So yes an Ancient can and will be pasted in combat with a Apothecary but he does more for the army overall.
As for durability, yes Apothecary operates at full capacity past 3 wounds whereas one Paladin dies, but those Paladins won't get killed by one lucky Lascannon or melta; so depends on how you value wounds to bodies. Call me an old-fashioned player but boys over toys has always been a rule for 40k.
Ancient doesn't work on a by a x unit basis. 2 min squads w/ an Ancient instantly do more damage than the Apothecary
It doesn't, that's the issue. Unless you are hitting light infantry, the apothecary deals more damage by himself than the ancient + the extra attacks. The ancient having just a falchion severely hinders his potential. The ancient only gets better than the apothecary once it affects 3 extra units (assuming units of 5) or 2 units with several hammers, and even then, it costs 40% more points, so point for point the apothecary is always more efficient. And that's assuming you can get that many units inside his aura, wich is pretty hard, and totally disregarding the apothecary's ability. The moment he prevents a single death his efficiency skyrockets. A particularly dirty trick is reviving a paladin and setting it in front of the unit so you gain more than 3 extra inches on the next charge, wich is really useful.
About the apothecary being hit by a laser, that won't happen unless you want it to happen, as he's a character, and even if he does, it is very risky to fire a laser into an apothecary instead of a paladin, as he will most probably survive and heal himself. It's a lot worse for the opponent to shoot an apothecary than to shoot a paladin, so there's no point to your argument.
Ancient doesn't work on a by a x unit basis. 2 min squads w/ an Ancient instantly do more damage than the Apothecary
It doesn't, that's the issue. Unless you are hitting light infantry, the apothecary deals more damage by himself than the ancient + the extra attacks. The ancient having just a falchion severely hinders his potential. The ancient only gets better than the apothecary once it affects 3 extra units (assuming units of 5) or 2 units with several hammers, and even then, it costs 40% more points, so point for point the apothecary is always more efficient. And that's assuming you can get that many units inside his aura, wich is pretty hard, and totally disregarding the apothecary's ability. The moment he prevents a single death his efficiency skyrockets. A particularly dirty trick is reviving a paladin and setting it in front of the unit so you gain more than 3 extra inches on the next charge, wich is really useful.
About the apothecary being hit by a laser, that won't happen unless you want it to happen, as he's a character, and even if he does, it is very risky to fire a laser into an apothecary instead of a paladin, as he will most probably survive and heal himself. It's a lot worse for the opponent to shoot an apothecary than to shoot a paladin, so there's no point to your argument.
And where is your math backing up this 3 extra units claim? Its very easy to come into a thread and claim your theory is better but you have yet to prove the merits. Auras are not hard to benefit from considering the fact Grey Knights already have few units to begin with, The biggest concern would be that once the charge has been made you may be out of aura range because there is a chance the ancient doesn't make the charge themselves.
The largest reason I disregard the apothecary is simply because his efficacy is dependent on the opponent having low quality weapons with which they will fail to kill a squad of X. This edition is very killy to the point I would build for bodies and buffs rather than pure point efficiency which ends up not being efficient.
Further you claim it is worse for a opponent to shoot an apothecary than a paladin, yet you say yourself the apothecary is more efficient in most ways. It makes much more sense to continue to shoot the apothecary as a result by your own argument.
The main reason I'm hesitant to bring an Apothecary for bringing back Paladins is the fact that he can't do anything if you fail the roll. That's a pretty major thing to just lose his combat punch for an entire turn, and as a GK player I don't have disposable command points to reroll that sort of stuff all game.
I would still take him to back up Draigo, as was mentioned earlier, but that's about it.
On another note, according to the FWFAQ's it looks like I was wrong about bringing FWSM tanks as Grey knight chapter. They cut out Deathwatch and Grey Knights. Oh well, no gate shenanigans I suppose.
And where is your math backing up this 3 extra units claim? Its very easy to come into a thread and claim your theory is better but you have yet to prove the merits. Auras are not hard to benefit from considering the fact Grey Knights already have few units to begin with, The biggest concern would be that once the charge has been made you may be out of aura range because there is a chance the ancient doesn't make the charge themselves.
The largest reason I disregard the apothecary is simply because his efficacy is dependent on the opponent having low quality weapons with which they will fail to kill a squad of X. This edition is very killy to the point I would build for bodies and buffs rather than pure point efficiency which ends up not being efficient.
Further you claim it is worse for a opponent to shoot an apothecary than a paladin, yet you say yourself the apothecary is more efficient in most ways. It makes much more sense to continue to shoot the apothecary as a result by your own argument.
Man, it's basic level math, you can do it yourself. Assuming 2 undamaged 5 man squads under his aura plus his attacks, the ancient averages 6.53 wounds vs light infantry and 4,31 vs armor, while the apothecary does 5,46 and 4.34 respectively. That makes the apothecary 15% more efficient in the first case and 40% more in the second.
It's very hard to have more than 2 units benefit from an aura when it only works in combat. The moment you have to charge a target it's likely they get split, and that's if everyone charges the same. The moment you want to charge different targets it's virtually impossible to keep several units under the aura, and really, if you are charging with 3 or 4 units into a single target, it's already dead. Furthermore, the apothecary is a pretty good threat on his own and you don't need it to charge the same unit as the paladins, while the ancient, both because of his aura and because how little damage he does by himself, it's pretty much forced to follow the paladins at every time.
As you seem to keep ignoring, I've already shown that the apothecary's efficiency only depends on how powerful he is by himself, not taking into account his special rules. But his special rule is really good and adds even more to a guy that's already good enough. You will easily get at least 2 heals, wich is worth a Paladin already. His revive ability is very risky to use if you don't have a reroll, but the reward is inmense and can turn around a tough situation giving you the extra damage and/or the extra charge distance. You just have to use it sensibly, but just the healing part is good enough anyway.
The apothecary is not only more efficient, but more durable. Shooting the apothecary has a higher chance of not killing him, meaning your damage potential remains undiminished, and giving you a perfect target for his healing (himself) because of his large wound pool (he can take advantage of a 3-wound heal and has a hicher chance to take advantage of a 2.wound one). If the opponent shoots the paladins instead, it's more likely that he kills a whole model, reducing your damage and the effectiveness of the apothecary's heal. The only situation in which it would be better to shoot the apothecary is if you have a high enough volume of fire that you can "guarantee" his death, but that situation is unlikely as he's a character so he will be usually be able to be shot by no more than a couple of units. Even in the case that the opponent can shoot them effectively, he's still cheaper than the paladins, so it's a win/win situation. But most of the time the opponent won't be able to shoot him at all, at least the first turns, so it's not a big point anyway.
For a 5 man, 2 hammers and 3 pairs of falchions. I've found that if they have a single hammer they lack punch, and with more than 2 they lack versatiliy and start becoming too expensive. If I use a 4 -man unit joined by an apothecary, only one hammer as the apothecary uses the second one. For shooting, always bolters.
Is no one using heavy weapons at all on them? Not even psilencers? I thought a good load out would be 5 dudes, two hammers, three falchions, and two heavy guns.
Also this obviously depends on the opponent, but what power do you bring on them?
Lastly, I have thought about bringing not one but two apothecarys. That way dragio has one to buff him, and one to help the pallies. What do you all think? Plus it's another two smiles to shoot at things. Which is always good.
What do you guys think about purge soul? It seems to me that on things like gms or even Paladins the possible amount of mortal wounds you could put on a unit/ character is really deadly. One bad roll and a monster loses 4-5 wounds in a poof
Grey knight special wrapons are, sadly, very inefficient. Paying 8 extra points for a weapon that's slightly better than a storm bolter is just a waste of points. Psycannons are even worse. They are worse than the psilencer against anything multiwounded, an cost 10 points more. You should never take special weapons. I hope the codex changes this.
I pick hammerhand with them. They deploy along Draigo and/or the apothecary, so you will not have many problems gating them if needed, and hammerhand is really good on them. Every other unit in the army has GoI.
Apothecaries are always good, so no harm in having more of them, but it really depends on how many points you have. If you have the 100 points, the apothecary is really effective, but so is a razorback (if you have someone to embark on it). On smaller games, a unit of paladins + apothecary + Draigo is good enough, so it's probably better to spend the points somewhere else. In bigger games (1850+), I try to have an apothecary for each unit of paladins (so 2 most of the time). That way each squad can act independently, having enough power to kill most things and forcing your opponent to focus them or risk them getting healed, wasting their firepower.
Purge soul is great. It's usually better to use them to soften vehicles, as they are not easy to crack outside of combat, and they usually have reasonable leadership stats. Trying to use them on characters is not very effective unless they are already wounded, because thy have high leadership and will, most likely, not die, and you will not be able to finish them off because of the character rule. I have purge on Draigo and usually give him the +1L trait for that extra wound.
Hmm that's really kind of a bummer heavy weapons suck suck so much. I always thought they were so cool on our terminators. I'll probably still take them just because I like them and I'm stubborn like that.
Yeah I'm hoping the codex does a few things. Some kind of a defensive psychic power would be nice. Also maybe some kind of rule for psybolts. Those were always fun.
Basically my list is looking like two storm Ravens and two paladin squads with an apothecary for each. With dragio. Probably not as competitive or max efficiency as it could be but it's basically my favorite army. In the whole game "The shiny dozen"
So how do you guys organize charges? I watched a battle report and the guy basically deep struck or landed everything turn one right in front of the enemy. Then turn two charged and basically won the game. But his opponent was also clumped together. Which vs grey Knights is a terribly idea since we are so few yet so hard hitting. But what do we do if the opponent is super spread out? Should we keep our little hammer together buffed by our auras? Or should we spread out? Seems like staying together and deleting anything you touch is the best idea. By about turn 3 the enemy shouldn't have much left.
About charges, it depends on the enemy, but generally, the first turn deep strike the whole army won't work against a decent opponent, because he'll use scouts and screens of infantry to block you.
My army consists of 3 razorbacks with strikes, 2-dreads, 0-1 stormravens and 1-2 units of paladins depending on points.
You can advance with the whole army using smoke to position yourself, then 2nd turn set the deep strike units, disembark and do the alpha strike. If you deploy the paladins first turn, they won't be able to be supported and can be focused.
If the opponent's shooting is not that scary, you can shoot instead of using smoke and/or deploy the paladins first turn so they have a better chance of charging.
In both cases you can deploy all paladins together or split. It depends entirely on the opponent's army and deployment and how the objectives are set.
If the opponent is a close combat army with limited shooting, like tyranids, orks or harlequins, you want to maintain the distance for a couple turns and then use the Paladins and transport as roadblocks to give you some extra time or just disembark and finish them off, depending on the situation. If the opponent overextends, you can also deepstrike some paladins and/or a Gated unit (dreads are good for this) to destroy their backline.
Generally, you want to use the tankiness of the paladins and the mobility of the rest of your army to force the opponent to spread while your army stays together so you can focus on their units one by one. That's why paladins are so vital, because they are practically the only unit that can take care of themselves without support.
Apoth is garbage - Fail his roll to regen wounds and he does nothing that turn - let that sink in - HE DOES NOTHING. Factor that into the fact that for his price you could just take 2 paladins and it becomes a pretty easy choice not to include him. Ancients are also bad - their cost is absurd.
Xenomancers wrote: Apoth is garbage - Fail his roll to regen wounds and he does nothing that turn - let that sink in - HE DOES NOTHING. Factor that into the fact that for his price you could just take 2 paladins and it becomes a pretty easy choice not to include him. Ancients are also bad - their cost is absurd.
Apothecary and Ancients work well for me; I run 3x (5x Interceptors) so its pretty easy for me to get in range of the banner with other units. I spam Purge Soul, so the +1 leadership helps a lot, as does the additional attack.
Apothecary isn't necessary but its a Paladin + 1x Interceptor cost. They automatically can restore D3 wounds, they only roll for a resurrection. Feels fine for me.
Well I like the idea of keeping Paladins alive. So I'll probably try apthocarys out
How do you guys arm your storm Ravens? It would seem like pure anti armor style with las cannons and multi meltas is the best as that is what we lack. Plus the hurricane bolsters. Just to help clear away numbers. But then again that is super expensive. On mine I have an assault cannon and multi melta. And hurricanes.
Also just because we have a good conversation going. What would you guys like to see in the new codex to fill in our tactical gaps? For many reasons I want terminators to be able to take storm shields. Maybe only be allowed to take sword so you don't get any staff plus shield abuse. I don't know how GW made space marine Knights and gave them no shields. Except for dragio that is.
More questions. What do you guys think about taking staves in groups of power armor Knights for at least 1 5++? Can't imagine he would last longer but not by much. Do you think it's worth it?
Doesn't the staff only give +1 thus making a PAGK 6++? Probably won't do much.
I'd also like to see Storm Shields be available to Grey Knights. Just make it so we can't use Daemon Hammers or dual-wield Falchions with them and it seems O.K. to me. It's kinda silly that only Draigo has one, yet our non-psychic analogues (Custodes) can spam the darn things.
I would like it if Smite was unnerfed on our HQ's. I understand not wanting us to spam it, but psychic HQ's shouldn't be neutered like our rank and file. Even Voldus can't cast a full-powered Smite and he's supposed to be one of the most powerful Librarians alive!
Since we're likely getting more psychic powers too I'd welcome a return of Sanctuary to give our Dreadknights a 4++.
We could also probably do with a HQ who lets us re-roll charges, like Lemartes for the Blood Angels.
Audustum wrote: Doesn't the staff only give +1 thus making a PAGK 6++? Probably won't do much.
I'd also like to see Storm Shields be available to Grey Knights. Just make it so we can't use Daemon Hammers or dual-wield Falchions with them and it seems O.K. to me. It's kinda silly that only Draigo has one, yet our non-psychic analogues (Custodes) can spam the darn things.
I would like it if Smite was unnerfed on our HQ's. I understand not wanting us to spam it, but psychic HQ's shouldn't be neutered like our rank and file. Even Voldus can't cast a full-powered Smite and he's supposed to be one of the most powerful Librarians alive!
Since we're likely getting more psychic powers too I'd welcome a return of Sanctuary to give our Dreadknights a 4++.
We could also probably do with a HQ who lets us re-roll charges, like Lemartes for the Blood Angels.
The staff gives 5++, or +1 to your invun if you already have one
Inquisitors get a full smite at 55 pts, the rites of banishment is purely due to it being available on all of our models.
I think the lack of stormshields hints heavily at psychic invul saves.
I feel great about the state of GK right now, but I always add them to Inquisition (which is in a tough spot). I'm curious to see the codex, hard to imagine taking pure GK though.
Audustum wrote: Doesn't the staff only give +1 thus making a PAGK 6++? Probably won't do much.
I'd also like to see Storm Shields be available to Grey Knights. Just make it so we can't use Daemon Hammers or dual-wield Falchions with them and it seems O.K. to me. It's kinda silly that only Draigo has one, yet our non-psychic analogues (Custodes) can spam the darn things.
I would like it if Smite was unnerfed on our HQ's. I understand not wanting us to spam it, but psychic HQ's shouldn't be neutered like our rank and file. Even Voldus can't cast a full-powered Smite and he's supposed to be one of the most powerful Librarians alive!
Since we're likely getting more psychic powers too I'd welcome a return of Sanctuary to give our Dreadknights a 4++.
We could also probably do with a HQ who lets us re-roll charges, like Lemartes for the Blood Angels.
The staff gives 5++, or +1 to your invun if you already have one
I stand corrected! Maybe worth it if you take 2. They'll only stop wounds 1/3 of the time.
How do you guys arm your storm Ravens? It would seem like pure anti armor style with las cannons and multi meltas is the best as that is what we lack. Plus the hurricane bolsters. Just to help clear away numbers. But then again that is super expensive. On mine I have an assault cannon and multi melta. And hurricanes.
I agree about going full antitank on the raven. The only armour you need to shoot down are dreadnought equivalents and transports, but you want to kill them early. The raven is perfect, as it packs enough concentrated firepower to destroy almost anything in a single turn (specially with Draigo nearby) and makes taking more antitank unnecesary. And of course, you always take hurricane bolters, they are so damn cheap.
About the wishlist for the new codex, they aren't giving us stormshields unless they change the terminator kit, and I don't think that's happening. Also I think is a good way to differentiate us from other terminators. If they were to gives us storm shields, I think it would have to be in the form of a new unit, paladin crusaders or something like that, with very limited gear options, probably just shields and sword to keep it balanced.
I'd like them to redo the NDK. Not only is he bland an uninteresing but also pretty terrible. I'd like if they make so they are playable but different from dreadnoughts so neither is clearly superior to the other.
They also need to fix HQs. We need some extra psychic powers, but that alone is not going to fix HQs, as you will just take Draigo + Voldus so you have all the powers and the rest of HQ would remain unplayable. I would in fact add pychic powers exclusive to librarians, although maybe that would make them mandatory. Some other auras or effects for the rest of HQ would be nice, or well, just make the brotherhood champion amazing in combat as it's supposed to be, but an "inspiration" aura would be pretty cool.
One of the most important things is increasing weapon variety. Now the only playable weapons are bolters and falchions (and hammers). It works well but it is not fun.
Also, I really really hope our unique stratagems are not all just stupid anti-demon stuff.
Audustum wrote: Doesn't the staff only give +1 thus making a PAGK 6++? Probably won't do much.
I'd also like to see Storm Shields be available to Grey Knights. Just make it so we can't use Daemon Hammers or dual-wield Falchions with them and it seems O.K. to me. It's kinda silly that only Draigo has one, yet our non-psychic analogues (Custodes) can spam the darn things.
I would like it if Smite was unnerfed on our HQ's. I understand not wanting us to spam it, but psychic HQ's shouldn't be neutered like our rank and file. Even Voldus can't cast a full-powered Smite and he's supposed to be one of the most powerful Librarians alive!
Since we're likely getting more psychic powers too I'd welcome a return of Sanctuary to give our Dreadknights a 4++.
We could also probably do with a HQ who lets us re-roll charges, like Lemartes for the Blood Angels.
The staff gives 5++, or +1 to your invun if you already have one
I stand corrected! Maybe worth it if you take 2. They'll only stop wounds 1/3 of the time.
Our Librarians can take Storm Shields and Nemesis Staves now, due to unit consolidation. That's 2++ in melee.
Audustum wrote: Doesn't the staff only give +1 thus making a PAGK 6++? Probably won't do much.
I'd also like to see Storm Shields be available to Grey Knights. Just make it so we can't use Daemon Hammers or dual-wield Falchions with them and it seems O.K. to me. It's kinda silly that only Draigo has one, yet our non-psychic analogues (Custodes) can spam the darn things.
I would like it if Smite was unnerfed on our HQ's. I understand not wanting us to spam it, but psychic HQ's shouldn't be neutered like our rank and file. Even Voldus can't cast a full-powered Smite and he's supposed to be one of the most powerful Librarians alive!
Since we're likely getting more psychic powers too I'd welcome a return of Sanctuary to give our Dreadknights a 4++.
We could also probably do with a HQ who lets us re-roll charges, like Lemartes for the Blood Angels.
The staff gives 5++, or +1 to your invun if you already have one
I stand corrected! Maybe worth it if you take 2. They'll only stop wounds 1/3 of the time.
Our Librarians can take Storm Shields and Nemesis Staves now, due to unit consolidation. That's 2++ in melee.
SJ
Yeah, though I thought we were only talking about PAGK.
I love that our Librarians can take them, but I think rather than encourage that GW will take it away from us when our Codex is released :(.
Honestly I'm just happy with how active the GK community is again; the information being argued over is great for everyone and presents more opportunities for everyone to learn.
Oh, the units are in a pretty good spot... Most things seem to be playable. I'm just not sure about the Rites of Banishment rule.
I don't mind the decreased range, but I still think giving them D3 Mortal wounds against all targets (without the option for D6 wounds on 10+) and double that against demons would at least go some way to make them feel less like neutered Psykers.
Or as some suggest, at least let the characters/HQ options cast it at full strenght.
Does anyone run swords on their paladins? I think the swords look great but it seems falchions with the +1 attack wins out over the -3 AP is the difference that great that running swords would be insane or is falchions more about min/max.
TheMostWize wrote: Does anyone run swords on their paladins? I think the swords look great but it seems falchions with the +1 attack wins out over the -3 AP is the difference that great that running swords would be insane or is falchions more about min/max.
More about min/max. Running a straight sword over the Falchion pair isn't going to hurt you terribly. Swords are actually the next step down on the tier list too. It goes: Hammer -> Falchions -> Sword -> Halberd -> Staff in terms of offensive output.
I really wish I would have magnetized my options back when I put all my sqauds together. I think I only did the terminators, and only some of them at that.
I think at this point though, it's just gonna be "oh, and pretend every sword is a set of falchions".
I'm debating magnetizing my psilencers. Storm bolsters on a per point level seem like the better option on terminator's. Based on the math on page 9.
I really am a fan of them though. Maybe just running a single for the extra shots instead of dual.
Seizeman wrote: Actually halberds are better than swords most of the time. And yes, the difference between falchions and the other weapons is pretty significant.
That is not what the math for power swords Vs. axes, which is basically the same as swords vs. Halberds, barring a few select situations.
Halberds are significantly better against T4,5 and 8 and vs anything with armor 5+ or worse. They are worse vs T6 and T7 vehicles and some eldar stuff.
So yes, halberds are better against most targets. Furthermore, when they are better, they are a lot better, and when they are worse, they are just a little worse.
Anyway, noone should have a problem if you use all weapons as falchions.
Seizeman wrote: Halberds are significantly better against T4,5 and 8 and vs anything with armor 5+ or worse. They are worse vs T6 and T7 vehicles and some eldar stuff.
So yes, halberds are better against most targets. Furthermore, when they are better, they are a lot better, and when they are worse, they are just a little worse.
Anyway, noone should have a problem if you use all weapons as falchions.
I'm sorry, but you're looking at very marginal differences even where the Halberd excels most of the time:
(These expected wounds include the 1D3 damage variance for both weapons)
Sword Vs. T4 at 2+/3+/4+/5+/6+ armor:
Wounds Expected from 1 Attack: .44/.55/.66/.66/.66
Sword Vs. T5 at 2+/3+/4+/5+/6+ armor:
Wounds Expected from 1 Attack: .30/.37/.45/.45/.45
Sword Vs. T8 at 2+/3+/4+/5+/6+ armor:
Wounds Expected from 1 Attack: .15/.18/.22/.22/.22
Halberd Vs. T4 at 2+/3+/4+/5+/6+ armor:
Wounds Expected from 1 Attack: .44/.60/.74/.88/.88
Halberd Vs. T5 at 2+/3+/4+/5+/6+ armor:
Wounds Expected from 1 Attack: .33/.44/.56/.67/.67
Halberd Vs. T8 at 2+/3+/4+/5+/6+ armor:
Wounds Expected from 1 Attack: .22/.30/.37/.45/.45
Conversely, your statement that the Halberd is better against "all" 5+ saves is incorrect. The Sword and Halberd are equal against 5+ saves from models of T1-3, T5-7 and T10+. The Sword exceeds the Halberd against 2+/3+/4+ saves in those same toughness ranges (oddly except for T4 2+, where they literally balance out as equal).
And the Sword outperforms the Halberd against the wide range of remaining match-ups, which I would say is far more than match-ups where the Halberd actually manages to perform better.
I'd advise a Halberd if you KNOW you're gonna be slamming it into an Imperial Knight (Halberd outperforms Sword .30 to .18) but against the vast majority of vehicles (T7, 3+) the Sword will give you an edge (.37 to .30). I will grant you that both weapons perform equally against Terminators (.45 for each).
Invulnerable saves are another ballgame too. Obviously, if you're fighting invulnerable armies (Harlequins, Daemons) the Halberd is straight up better.
daedalus wrote: I really wish I would have magnetized my options back when I put all my sqauds together.
From a playing perspective I feel you. I glued mine in 5th edition.
But from a rule of cool factor it just doesn't work that well. A lot of swords and halberds are two-handed. The poses just look stupid when you switch them to falchions. That would bother me even more..
On an unrelated note:
I saw people talking about a Land Raider Crusader full of Purgation squads with Psilencers and Draigo (or a GM).
Gating it to the enemy and then unloading 12 Psilencers with rerolls + the dakka from the crusader.
Pretty expensive for a one trick pony, but I honestly love the idea. What do you think? Would it have the same effect with just Stormbolters?
daedalus wrote: I really wish I would have magnetized my options back when I put all my sqauds together. I think I only did the terminators, and only some of them at that.
I think at this point though, it's just gonna be "oh, and pretend every sword is a set of falchions".
You would try to pull some BS like that. I cannot possibly remember that a sword is two swords! Next game I'll count a land raider as a Stormlord.
Actually I'm wishing I'd have magnetized my paladins. I definitely wouldn't worry about magnetizing or swapping out the swords for falcons until after the codex drops. I'm betting they will make falcons and halberds cost something. Regular marines have a point cost difference for buying an ax vs a power sword so I suspect that it is coming for falcons and halberds seeing as they do more damage.
Has anyone found a good way to magnetize the 3+ infantry other than at the shoulders? It is kind of expensive in time painting and in money buying all the extra bits.
Has anyone had success with GK Terminators, or is the consensuses that Paladins are always better?
Paladins are always better for 9 points your getting a Paragon who hits on 2+, an extra wound, and an extra attack as well as +1 leadership.
It also allows you to take 2 heavy weapons per unit if you want that. Still up in the air on that one. Storm Bolters and Psilencers seem to be the consensus best options with Storm Bolters in rapid fire range being best per point unless you have the points to spare.
You would try to pull some BS like that. I cannot possibly remember that a sword is two swords! Next game I'll count a land raider as a Stormlord.
Oh yeah? well, I'm gonna count these vodka bottles over here as drop pods. And then not use them!
Has anyone had success with GK Terminators, or is the consensuses that Paladins are always better?
Paladins are always going to be better for you specifically, because I won't be mulching them one per failed save with MY stormlord. Nine points to not lose a model every time you get nicked by a stray autocannon/vulcan cannon/inferno cannon/other 2 wound weapon is well worth it.
So, i need help to build the perfect competitive 2000 point list. I've done some research on the forums and while playing. And pretty much the only thing i'm sure about is that Stormravens are amazing.
I feel like the strikesquad in this edition is pretty good with those rapid 2 stormbolters and they have teleport strike.
This list is made by a user named yowsaman and i feel like he is really onto something,but I removed some stuff which did not really perform that great for me.
The total point cost of this list is 1468 so its 532 shy of 2000. And i'm unsure what to add to the list. The list so far has means do destroy bigger stuff with 8 lascannon shots and also the means to deal with hordes with 132 bolter shots. (If draigo close by reroll)
I think the list lacks some anti-tougher than average guys weapons but i feel unsure what to add.
So help,critisism,suggestions always welcome.
Zkery wrote: So, i need help to build the perfect competitive 2000 point list. I've done some research on the forums and while playing. And pretty much the only thing i'm sure about is that Stormravens are amazing.
I feel like the strikesquad in this edition is pretty good with those rapid 2 stormbolters and they have teleport strike.
This list is made by a user named yowsaman and i feel like he is really onto something,but I removed some stuff which did not really perform that great for me.
The total point cost of this list is 1468 so its 532 shy of 2000. And i'm unsure what to add to the list. The list so far has means do destroy bigger stuff with 8 lascannon shots and also the means to deal with hordes with 132 bolter shots. (If draigo close by reroll)
I think the list lacks some anti-tougher than average guys weapons but i feel unsure what to add.
So help,critisism,suggestions always welcome.
Thanks in advance!
1) I wouldn't get too high on Stormravens. They're just another T7 3+ save vehicle, which means there's plenty of shooty armies that can pop them in ~two turns. That said, Stormravens are best utilized as transports w/ Purifiers inside.
2) Those Razorbacks don't seem to be transporting anything... If you're looking for backline shooty, why take Razorbacks over Venerable Dreds?
3) GK Marine squads should always run a few (1-2) Warding Staves in case you need to make saves against high AP weapons in combat.
4) Pay two extra points for a Psilencer in each Strike squad. Thank me later.
5) Pay four extra points per model to turn your Strike squad into an Interceptor squad.
Seizeman wrote: Grey knights having 1d3 smite would be ridiculously broken. The Rites of banishment rule is perfect as it is.
Actually, I'm just comparing it to the version Tzeentch aspiring sorcerers have. They can at least reach D3 wounds (does still require a 10+ though) and they don't have to deal with half range either.
The reason for a reduction are quite obvious, I just find it strange that GKs smite spam is nerfed a lot harder than the chaos version.... Especially for the heroes. For an army of so called "mighty psykers", I find the psychic phase to be incredibly underwhelming (again, compared to what other armies appear to be able to dish out).
Hopefully, the new dex will have a few more psychic toys to play around with.
TheMostWize wrote: Does anyone run swords on their paladins? I think the swords look great but it seems falchions with the +1 attack wins out over the -3 AP is the difference that great that running swords would be insane or is falchions more about min/max.
What's optimal depends a lot on the target. Falchions are great on units with one base attack, but on paladins it's not always the best, as going from three attacks to four is only a 33% power increase. Against 2+ saves the extra AP from the sword provides the same boost.
Here's a bunch of plots in a grid with increasing toughness from left to right and increasing save from top to bottom. Each plot has the average number of failed saves a model with a particular weapon will inflict per fighting phase. The falchions are the best (or equal best) non-hammer pretty consistently, with the Halberd and Stave beating it at T5 and 8. The sword is supposed to shine at 2+ saves, but the extra attack provides the same value for the falchion.
TheMostWize wrote: Does anyone run swords on their paladins? I think the swords look great but it seems falchions with the +1 attack wins out over the -3 AP is the difference that great that running swords would be insane or is falchions more about min/max.
What's optimal depends a lot on the target. Falchions are great on units with one base attack, but on paladins it's not always the best, as going from three attacks to four is only a 33% power increase. Against 2+ saves the extra AP from the sword provides the same boost.
I ran some simulations for Paladin Melee weapons. Here's a bunch of plots in a grid with increasing toughness from left to right and increasing save from top to bottom. Each plot has the number of times (out of 10.000) a model with a particular weapon will inflict a particular number of wounds (out of 12). The best weapons will be lower towards the left and higher towards the right of each plot; it means they inflicted a high amount of wounds more often.
In most cases, the weapons perform almost identically, with slight edges to one or another from time to time. The non-staves are equal at T4, 2+, there's a very tiny edge to the halberd at T5 2+, while the sword and falchion beat the halberd at most T6 & 7s by the same amount. The halberd is the best non-hammer at T8, while the stave performs best at 6+ saves where the extra AP of the other weapons is wasted.
Glad to see another mathammer enthusiast! As you may have seen I posted my findings on GK weapon options on pg. 9. Here, though, I think you've made a great contribution in that you've correctly noticed that Falchions are not as much an auto-take on Paladins as they are on Strike/Interceptor/Purifiers.
I think we can agree that if you're not able to pay for the Hammer, then either 2x Falchions or Halberd are your next best options in terms of damage output.
So here's the breakdown on Paladins equipped w/ 2x Falchions vs. Halberd... assuming your opponent has 3+ save.
Against T3: Falchions win
Against T4: Tied
Against T5: Halberd wins
Against T6: Falchions win
Against T7: Falchions win
Against T8: Halberd wins HARD
Given that spread, I'm inclined to still take Falchions on Paladins. Plus, if your Paladins have Hammerhand (and why wouldn't they?) then you'll find Falchions actually fare better.
Glad to see another mathammer enthusiast! As you may have seen I posted my findings on GK weapon options on pg. 9. Here, though, I think you've made a great contribution in that you've correctly noticed that Falchions are not as much an auto-take on Paladins as they are on Strike/Interceptor/Purifiers.
I think we can agree that if you're not able to pay for the Hammer, then either 2x Falchions or Halberd are your next best options in terms of damage output.
I've just edited the plots, it was pretty hard to read the differences in simulation distributions so I went for average unsaved attacks, much easier to read plot with the same story.
I agree with either halberd or stave, and there's probably some niche for the stave if you want the 2+/4++ save on the paladins, maybe against geq with power weapons. I'm surprised that there's no reason to ever take a sword; though on characters with 4+ base attacks it will be the outright best against 2+ saves.
I've just edited the plots, it was pretty hard to read the differences in simulation distributions so I went for average unsaved attacks, much easier to read plot with the same story.
I agree with either halberd or stave, and there's probably some niche for the stave if you want the 2+/4++ save on the paladins, maybe against geq with power weapons. I'm surprised that there's no reason to ever take a sword; though on characters with 4+ base attacks it will be the outright best against 2+ saves.
Yeah, it could be wise to run at least 1 stave in your paladin unit and use that model to take saves against AP-3 weapons.
Swords are pretty much outclassed everywhere you look, as GK Characters who have the option should really be taking a Daemon Hammer.
Taking halberds on Paladins won't cripple you which is good to know.
Obviously there comes a point where you have to just decide this is what I'm running if you are a WYSIWYG player. Contemplating running a Halberd squad and a Falchions squad. Also very interesting how the worse the opponent save the better the stave becomes.
I know there was some math on shooting but are storm Bolters the best option because of cheapness? I'm hesitant to take the Psilencers on Paladins because of the fact that they will always be moving and it saves 16 points in a squad of 5.
Taking halberds on Paladins won't cripple you which is good to know.
Obviously there comes a point where you have to just decide this is what I'm running if you are a WYSIWYG player. Contemplating running a Halberd squad and a Falchions squad. Also very interesting how the worse the opponent save the better the stave becomes.
I know there was some math on shooting but are storm Bolters the best option because of cheapness? I'm hesitant to take the Psilencers on Paladins because of the fact that they will always be moving and it saves 16 points in a squad of 5.
If you're running Paladins to be cheap, I'd say don't take 5 of them. If you're running them in 5's, then definitely grab the Psilencers. The volume of shots, D3 damage and minimal cost increase makes them a better buy than the Storm Bolter.
Taking halberds on Paladins won't cripple you which is good to know.
Obviously there comes a point where you have to just decide this is what I'm running if you are a WYSIWYG player. Contemplating running a Halberd squad and a Falchions squad. Also very interesting how the worse the opponent save the better the stave becomes.
I know there was some math on shooting but are storm Bolters the best option because of cheapness? I'm hesitant to take the Psilencers on Paladins because of the fact that they will always be moving and it saves 16 points in a squad of 5.
If you're running Paladins to be cheap, I'd say don't take 5 of them. If you're running them in 5's, then definitely grab the Psilencers. The volume of shots, D3 damage and minimal cost increase makes them a better buy than the Storm Bolter.
I was toying with the idea of running 3 man units but not sure how well it works as has been brought up with buffs and sustainability. I'm running a paladin heavy force since I love the models trying to cover whatever bases I can.
Taking halberds on Paladins won't cripple you which is good to know.
Obviously there comes a point where you have to just decide this is what I'm running if you are a WYSIWYG player. Contemplating running a Halberd squad and a Falchions squad. Also very interesting how the worse the opponent save the better the stave becomes.
I know there was some math on shooting but are storm Bolters the best option because of cheapness? I'm hesitant to take the Psilencers on Paladins because of the fact that they will always be moving and it saves 16 points in a squad of 5.
If you're running Paladins to be cheap, I'd say don't take 5 of them. If you're running them in 5's, then definitely grab the Psilencers. The volume of shots, D3 damage and minimal cost increase makes them a better buy than the Storm Bolter.
I was toying with the idea of running 3 man units but not sure how well it works as has been brought up with buffs and sustainability. I'm running a paladin heavy force since I love the models trying to cover whatever bases I can.
Comes down to how much you're relying on those buffs. So take a player like Quickjager for example. We know from this thread he's running pure Grey Knights and he doesn't want to waste points on too many buffing units, rather spending those points on buffed units. In that scenario, I'd agree with him; take the big Paladin units so you can get those buffs on.
Myself, I splash allies into my Grey Knights so A) I need points for those allies and B) they're not getting effected by GK buffers anyway. So keeping the Paladins cheap and self-contained is much more important a consideration. Give my Paladins 1 buffer unit, usually Draigo or a GM and that's it. No Ancient or Apothecary. An example for me might be a Vanguard Detachment with Paladins and Draigo backed by a Spearhead Detachment of Devastators and a Captain.
Your detachment matters too. Since you're a Paladin heavy force, if you're spamming Vanguard detachments you might want smaller units of Paladins so you can field more detachments and thus get more command points. If you're happy with one detachment, then getting the bigger team of Paladins with more buffs might work better for you.
TheMostWize wrote: That was actually very well explained and to me makes a lot of sense.
I was originally panning on Scions with melta and plasma to drop in and kill stuff. At least hard targets.
I hate making choices sometimes lol.
Haha, but at least it gets us playing! All the variants of my lists are what make me excited to try them out.
I was looking at Scions for the same thing too (plus cheap troop filling to cram a battalion in there). I'd also recommend looking at the humble Skitarii Ranger. They're about 50 points base and can take 2 specials per 5 (especially that Transauranic Arquebus).
I think the biggest struggle for pure gk is getting anti armor unless stormravens are the absolute solution to that.
Doomglaives/Riflemen dreads seem like another logical option. I am building 15 paladins and have 2 doomglaives to build because of the visuals of the army. Gotta figure out how to fit anti armor in here.
I dunno how much the Dreads cost, but 5 units of 3 Pallies with 1 hammer each is just a bit shy of 1k, right? Add in Dreads and HQ's and I'd say you should look at suicide Scion squads (which you are) maybe a single Stormraven or Tarantula Sentry Guns, which get you an immobile, but Hardy unit with a lascannon for only like 60 points.
EDIT: Whoops, right, pure GK is what we're talking about. Adding in MORE Dreads or the Stormraven are the only real good option I've seen. Some people say you can take a veritable horde of Strikes and some Brother-Captains to just mortal wound spam armor to death though.
Razorback lascannons are the other effective choice for AT. Relatively cheap for a durable, mobile platform with two shots, even if you don't use the transport capacity. I'd say most GK armies could use a backfield objective sitter or two as well.
Currently converting a couple of Rhinos using spare Stormraven hvy weapons.
Audustum wrote: I dunno how much the Dreads cost, but 5 units of 3 Pallies with 1 hammer each is just a bit shy of 1k, right? Add in Dreads and HQ's and I'd say you should look at suicide Scion squads (which you are) maybe a single Stormraven or Tarantula Sentry Guns, which get you an immobile, but Hardy unit with a lascannon for only like 60 points.
EDIT: Whoops, right, pure GK is what we're talking about. Adding in MORE Dreads or the Stormraven are the only real good option I've seen. Some people say you can take a veritable horde of Strikes and some Brother-Captains to just mortal wound spam armor to death though.
Your sitting at 1080 with Voldus and 5 3 man terminator squads w/ hammer and falchions. At that point though your looking at another entire detachment to get Dreads in. Which means another HQ.
Just threw this together for a Paladin heavy list at 2k.
Nairul wrote: See my math on pg. 9 regarding Psilencer vs. Psycannon
I'm on the Psilencer train. I only added the cannons for dealing with higher toughness like 6 and 7. It is probably not worth it though because now that you say that didn't you show that up to toughness 7 the psilencer is still more effective?
I'm not saying it's 'cheap' but my current build puts a pair of God hammer landraiders, a lascannon dread and a stormraven on the board. You'd be amazed at how much anti armour 12 lascannon, three melta's and some storms trike missiles bring to a game, especially on some pretty tough hulls.
Nairul wrote: See my math on pg. 9 regarding Psilencer vs. Psycannon
I'm on the Psilencer train. I only added the cannons for dealing with higher toughness like 6 and 7. It is probably not worth it though because now that you say that didn't you show that up to toughness 7 the psilencer is still more effective?
Yep. Here's the breakdown on Psilencer vs. Psycannon in terms of damage output.
Against T3: Psilencer wins
Against T4: Psilencer wins
Against T5: Tie
Against T6: Tie
Against T7: Psilencer wins
Against T8: Psycannon wins
Then realize the Psycannon is the more expensive wargear... and the Psilencer becomes a no-brainer. I've been saying it for 10 pages now! This gun is the hidden gem of our codex. In my experience, at first glance my opponents seem to care less about this petty Strength 4 gun.
But then turn 1 you alpha strike everything near one flank. My competitive list contains 60 Psilencer shots in total, re-rolling misses thanks to Draigo. Watch the fear in their eyes as their big units get slowly chipped away by D3 damage rolls, smites, and good ol' Storm Bolter rapid fire.
Nairul wrote: See my math on pg. 9 regarding Psilencer vs. Psycannon
I'm on the Psilencer train. I only added the cannons for dealing with higher toughness like 6 and 7. It is probably not worth it though because now that you say that didn't you show that up to toughness 7 the psilencer is still more effective?
Yep. Here's the breakdown on Psilencer vs. Psycannon in terms of damage output.
Against T3: Psilencer wins
Against T4: Psilencer wins
Against T5: Tie
Against T6: Tie
Against T7: Psilencer wins
Against T8: Psycannon wins
Then realize the Psycannon is the more expensive wargear... and the Psilencer becomes a no-brainer. I've been saying it for 10 pages now! This gun is the hidden gem of our codex. In my experience, at first glance my opponents seem to care less about this petty Strength 4 gun.
But then turn 1 you alpha strike everything near one flank. My competitive list contains 60 Psilencer shots in total, re-rolling misses thanks to Draigo. Watch the fear in their eyes as their big units get slowly chipped away by D3 damage rolls, smites, and good ol' Storm Bolter rapid fire.
Yea. I'm nervous the new codex is going to change something and they won't be as good anymore.
Oh well guess of it does I'll just tear em apart and make the needed changes. Going to magnetize the psilencer arm anyway.
Hey guys, quick question. How does an inquisitor's Unquestionable Wisdom ability interact with our Ancient's Banner? Does the offering of leadership value replace your base or modified value, or rather, do we get a leadership value of 9, then the +1 from our banner?
The other day my GK went against a friend's BA and on turn 2 I dropped a stormraven's payload of 2 purifier squads, Coteaz, and an Astropath in front of his untouched death company. These guys also came in near my bro-cap warlord and my ancient. Psychic Phase: The Astropath and Coteaz both successfully reduced leadership values (-3 is nasty on a Ld 7 unit), we spammed our smites (purifiers are awesome.), and then the Bro-Cap went to drop Purge Soul. My friend allowed me the more generous interpretation, and thus my Ld was 11 vs. his 4. It was a slaughter, but I can't help but feel we ran it incorrectly.
edit: I already see we goofed the astropath into the vehicle. Strike one.
Wouldn't normally post a list in the tactis thread howeber just about to push play on buying some Grey Knight models and want to make sure I don't make any critical mistakes when modelling the load outs!
The other thing I was consider was dropping a DK and picking up a FW Dreadnought?
TheMostWize wrote: Skip the NDK in my opinion at this current point dreads are better.
Gunna have to disagree with you there. I'd take a NDK over a dread any day. Personal teleporters allow them to synergize so much better with Draigo.
A doomglaive brought on a storm Raven is awesome. But I still like dread knights.. but don't so heavily arm my dread knight anymore. I'm just taking an incinerator these days for guns. His ballistic skill drops too much and gets stuck in combat to often to justify two guns. When his bs drops from wounds his incinerator keeps a steady output.
TheMostWize wrote: Skip the NDK in my opinion at this current point dreads are better.
Gunna have to disagree with you there. I'd take a NDK over a dread any day. Personal teleporters allow them to synergize so much better with Draigo.
A doomglaive brought on a storm Raven is awesome. But I still like dread knights.. but don't so heavily arm my dread knight anymore. I'm just taking an incinerator these days for guns. His ballistic skill drops too much and gets stuck in combat to often to justify two guns. When his bs drops from wounds his incinerator keeps a steady output.
I like to take one of each.
However you'd NEED a Stormraven for each one.
I'd go with the thought you can get away with a Dread for each raven, and then go for dreadknights.
Thanks guys I think I will just go with one NDK and one DN to fly in the Stormraven. That always adds a little variety into the list which helps when playing fun games.
Hey guys, quick question. How does an inquisitor's Unquestionable Wisdom ability interact with our Ancient's Banner? Does the offering of leadership value replace your base or modified value, or rather, do we get a leadership value of 9, then the +1 from our banner?
The two abilities don't interact, you ether use your own leadership (with the +1) or the inquisitor's one.
The purge soul situation is cool, but is absolutely overkill. Just draigo and the Paladins would have massacred the company anyway.
Why are you guys under the impression that you need a transport for the dread? Between advancing turn one and GoI I have no problems moving them across the board. There's no reason ever to take the NDK over a dread or a paladin squad.
Hey guys, quick question. How does an inquisitor's Unquestionable Wisdom ability interact with our Ancient's Banner? Does the offering of leadership value replace your base or modified value, or rather, do we get a leadership value of 9, then the +1 from our banner?
The two abilities don't interact, you ether use your own leadership (with the +1) or the inquisitor's one.
The purge soul situation is cool, but is absolutely overkill. Just draigo and the Paladins would have massacred the company anyway.
Why are you guys under the impression that you need a transport for the dread? Between advancing turn one and GoI I have no problems moving them across the board. There's no reason ever to take the NDK over a dread or a paladin squad.
I agree with this sentiment. The stormraven is great for one dread. Also I think NDKs are way overcosted for what they bring. Your paying an extra 65 points for what amounts to 4 wounds. Doomglaives have a better BS/WS that doesn't deteriorate as he loses wounds. NDK has +1 save, Doomglaive has +1 toughness. Firepower is equal. But the Doomglaive ends up being more consistent in combat do to stat loss on the NDK. Based on the stats anyway.
1 Doomglaive in a stormraven one GoI to the deep striking paladins.
If you want to run a NDK go for it just saying dreads are proving to be much more point effective at this point.
Hey guys, quick question. How does an inquisitor's Unquestionable Wisdom ability interact with our Ancient's Banner? Does the offering of leadership value replace your base or modified value, or rather, do we get a leadership value of 9, then the +1 from our banner?
The two abilities don't interact, you ether use your own leadership (with the +1) or the inquisitor's one.
The purge soul situation is cool, but is absolutely overkill. Just draigo and the Paladins would have massacred the company anyway.
Why are you guys under the impression that you need a transport for the dread? Between advancing turn one and GoI I have no problems moving them across the board. There's no reason ever to take the NDK over a dread or a paladin squad.
I agree with this sentiment. The stormraven is great for one dread. Also I think NDKs are way overcosted for what they bring. Your paying an extra 65 points for what amounts to 4 wounds. Doomglaives have a better BS/WS that doesn't deteriorate as he loses wounds. NDK has +1 save, Doomglaive has +1 toughness. Firepower is equal. But the Doomglaive ends up being more consistent in combat do to stat loss on the NDK. Based on the stats anyway.
1 Doomglaive in a stormraven one GoI to the deep striking paladins.
If you want to run a NDK go for it just saying dreads are proving to be much more point effective at this point.
You're also paying more for more natural mobility. That's always going to be worth the price
Hey guys, quick question. How does an inquisitor's Unquestionable Wisdom ability interact with our Ancient's Banner? Does the offering of leadership value replace your base or modified value, or rather, do we get a leadership value of 9, then the +1 from our banner?
The two abilities don't interact, you ether use your own leadership (with the +1) or the inquisitor's one.
The purge soul situation is cool, but is absolutely overkill. Just draigo and the Paladins would have massacred the company anyway.
Why are you guys under the impression that you need a transport for the dread? Between advancing turn one and GoI I have no problems moving them across the board. There's no reason ever to take the NDK over a dread or a paladin squad.
I agree with this sentiment. The stormraven is great for one dread. Also I think NDKs are way overcosted for what they bring. Your paying an extra 65 points for what amounts to 4 wounds. Doomglaives have a better BS/WS that doesn't deteriorate as he loses wounds. NDK has +1 save, Doomglaive has +1 toughness. Firepower is equal. But the Doomglaive ends up being more consistent in combat do to stat loss on the NDK. Based on the stats anyway.
1 Doomglaive in a stormraven one GoI to the deep striking paladins.
If you want to run a NDK go for it just saying dreads are proving to be much more point effective at this point.
You're also paying more for more natural mobility. That's always going to be worth the price
1) I consider the most cost-efficient loadout of the NDK to be Gatling Psilencer/Heavy Psycannon. So that's 45 extra points.
2) How could you say firepower is equal? It's not.
3) +1 save will always be useful, whereas +1 toughness may not matter.
Xenomancers wrote: Space marine dreads are more efficent but greyknight dreads are totally trash. +20 points for a 1 damage smite is NOT good.
Well we're talking specifically about the Doomglaive... which unlike the other GK Dreads (trash I agree!) knows 1 power from Sanctic discipline, allowing it to GoI around the board.
Hey guys, quick question. How does an inquisitor's Unquestionable Wisdom ability interact with our Ancient's Banner? Does the offering of leadership value replace your base or modified value, or rather, do we get a leadership value of 9, then the +1 from our banner?
The two abilities don't interact, you ether use your own leadership (with the +1) or the inquisitor's one.
The purge soul situation is cool, but is absolutely overkill. Just draigo and the Paladins would have massacred the company anyway.
Why are you guys under the impression that you need a transport for the dread? Between advancing turn one and GoI I have no problems moving them across the board. There's no reason ever to take the NDK over a dread or a paladin squad.
I agree with this sentiment. The stormraven is great for one dread. Also I think NDKs are way overcosted for what they bring. Your paying an extra 65 points for what amounts to 4 wounds. Doomglaives have a better BS/WS that doesn't deteriorate as he loses wounds. NDK has +1 save, Doomglaive has +1 toughness. Firepower is equal. But the Doomglaive ends up being more consistent in combat do to stat loss on the NDK. Based on the stats anyway.
1 Doomglaive in a stormraven one GoI to the deep striking paladins.
If you want to run a NDK go for it just saying dreads are proving to be much more point effective at this point.
You're also paying more for more natural mobility. That's always going to be worth the price
1) I consider the most cost-efficient loadout of the NDK to be Gatling Psilencer/Heavy Psycannon. So that's 45 extra points.
2) How could you say firepower is equal? It's not.
3) +1 save will always be useful, whereas +1 toughness may not matter.
You are correct I was assuming both were bringing incinerators.
That being said while the NDK is tougher the Doomglaive has proven to be able to kill just as efficiently but for less points. If a 168 point model can kill as many models as a 200+ point model in less turns why wouldn't you save the points? Sure the NDK might be around and extra turn but the effectiveness of it drops once it drops half its wounds means your now hitting on 5s if you move. That is horrible in my opinion. Its already hitting on 4s if it moves and fires. The fact that the Doomglaive can move and hit on 3s is hugely beneficial. Plus it hits on 2s in combat which turns into more kills in combat.
Hey guys, quick question. How does an inquisitor's Unquestionable Wisdom ability interact with our Ancient's Banner? Does the offering of leadership value replace your base or modified value, or rather, do we get a leadership value of 9, then the +1 from our banner?
The two abilities don't interact, you ether use your own leadership (with the +1) or the inquisitor's one.
The purge soul situation is cool, but is absolutely overkill. Just draigo and the Paladins would have massacred the company anyway.
Why are you guys under the impression that you need a transport for the dread? Between advancing turn one and GoI I have no problems moving them across the board. There's no reason ever to take the NDK over a dread or a paladin squad.
I agree with this sentiment. The stormraven is great for one dread. Also I think NDKs are way overcosted for what they bring. Your paying an extra 65 points for what amounts to 4 wounds. Doomglaives have a better BS/WS that doesn't deteriorate as he loses wounds. NDK has +1 save, Doomglaive has +1 toughness. Firepower is equal. But the Doomglaive ends up being more consistent in combat do to stat loss on the NDK. Based on the stats anyway.
1 Doomglaive in a stormraven one GoI to the deep striking paladins.
If you want to run a NDK go for it just saying dreads are proving to be much more point effective at this point.
You're also paying more for more natural mobility. That's always going to be worth the price
1) I consider the most cost-efficient loadout of the NDK to be Gatling Psilencer/Heavy Psycannon. So that's 45 extra points.
2) How could you say firepower is equal? It's not.
3) +1 save will always be useful, whereas +1 toughness may not matter.
You are correct I was assuming both were bringing incinerators.
That being said while the NDK is tougher the Doomglaive has proven to be able to kill just as efficiently but for less points. If a 168 point model can kill as many models as a 200+ point model in less turns why wouldn't you save the points? Sure the NDK might be around and extra turn but the effectiveness of it drops once it drops half its wounds means your now hitting on 5s if you move. That is horrible in my opinion. Its already hitting on 4s if it moves and fires. The fact that the Doomglaive can move and hit on 3s is hugely beneficial. Plus it hits on 2s in combat which turns into more kills in combat.
I like to have one of each so far. Since you can only GOI one unit a turn, the deep strike on a dreadknight can be useful alongside a goi doomglaive dreadnought.
I don't take ballistic skill guns on the dreadknight anymore.... just been missing too much for me to justify it on a platform that wants to be moving. These two on a flank can chew it up/pressure it pretty well.
If you're in the camp that GOI doesn't count as reinforcements, then I'd rather plan to use my first turn GOI on a NDK with Gatling Psilencer/Heavy Psycannon to get the most out of that 3+ shooting. Or even better -- on a 10-man Paladin unit with 4x Psilencer 6x Storm Bolter.
I guess it comes down to what style you'd like to play. I've had most success with GK using our turn 1 alpha-strike with Draigo aura to completely decimate a flank in the psychic/shooting phase. Hence why I prefer NDK to Dreads.
A doomglaive costs 168 points, a NDK with an incinerator costs 205 (215 with a teleporter), so the NDK is a 22% (28%) more expensive.
The doomglaive deals 27% more damage in close combat and more than twice the damage by shooting (at twice the range).
The NDK is about 25% more durable against "regular" heavy fire (assault/auto cannons etc) and about 50% more against anti-amor (melta, lascanon).
These numbers are most significant when you look at how this translates in game. Against a rhino, the dreadnought averages 9.5 wounds in a turn, almost enough to destroy it by himself. The NDK averages 7 wounds, so very unlikely to destroy it without significant help. This means that the dread can consolidate into another target, the NDK will be engaged for another turn, or the vehicle will fall back and survive.
Similarly, it's low damage output means it will loose in a 1v1 fight against similar units, like close combat dreads, tyranid monsters. Assuming the dread charges, it has a hich chance of killing its target in a single blow. In the case of the NDK, he will not do enough damage, and the target will not only able to hit back on the same turn, but remain engaged and strike first next turn (and remember the dreadknight degrades with dmg). So even though theoretically the dreadknight is more durable, in practice it is often not the case.
The NDK is significantly more durable against shooting, but we come to the same defficiency. There's no use in being durable if the opponent does not shoot at you, because you are not threatening enough to deserve his attention.
Seizeman wrote: A doomglaive costs 168 points, a NDK with an incinerator costs 205 (215 with a teleporter), so the NDK is a 22% (28%) more expensive.
The doomglaive deals 27% more damage in close combat and more than twice the damage by shooting (at twice the range).
The NDK is about 25% more durable against "regular" heavy fire (assault/auto cannons etc) and about 50% more against anti-amor (melta, lascanon).
These numbers are most significant when you look at how this translates in game. Against a rhino, the dreadnought averages 9.5 wounds in a turn, almost enough to destroy it by himself. The NDK averages 7 wounds, so very unlikely to destroy it without significant help. This means that the dread can consolidate into another target, the NDK will be engaged for another turn, or the vehicle will fall back and survive.
That's a lot of numbers. Could you please show your work?
Gest wrote: So for all the people who dislike/don't use/don't allow FW Models this means that the NDK is still better than the (non Doomglaive) DN, right?
If you play by that particular set of house rules, then yes, it seems so.
Gest wrote: So for all the people who dislike/don't use/don't allow FW Models this means that the NDK is still better than the (non Doomglaive) DN, right?
Depends. Dual Autocannon ven dreads are still better at range and only 156 points. If your looking for close combat then the NDK is probably better.
As much as I enjoy Dreadnaughts and Dreadknights being evenly matched, I'm a little disappointed they they seem to both fulfill such a similar role now, both armored beatsticks who march up the field chopping and blasting away. One can deepstrike the other can jump in a stormraven. We can discuss efficiency and value for points but that's basically what it comes down to.
Ideally I think the DK should be made a bit more dynamic in the new codex, to fit a different role. Perhaps regain it's old movement stat or some sort of rule to suit it's reputation as a Greater Daemon/Big beastie slayer.
Hello there!
I've played some games in this edition and i find new libras fascinating, with 2+/3++/2++ save and 5w they are almost unkillable and motal wounds mechanics are amazeing. I was thinking about upgradeing it a little bit more. My idea was to pack a strom raven with a libra, 9 ss guys and inquisitor Cotaez. Libra with +1 ld warlord trait gives Cotaez 11 ld and he grants his ld back to liibra. If we take terrify psychic power on him we can grant enemy unit -1 ld and cancel it's overwatch. This should grant +4 bonus to contested roll of purge soul psychic power plus cotaez brings second d3 smite. What do you think about it?
The librarian is really really bad. 3 attacks with a stave (at WS3+) are awful and the GM aura is really powerful. Sacrificing all of that for 1 more wound on the smite is not even worth considering.
An apothecary costs the same as coteaz and it is about a million times better,
Seizeman wrote: The librarian is really really bad. 3 attacks with a stave (at WS3+) are awful and the GM aura is really powerful. Sacrificing all of that for 1 more wound on the smite is not even worth considering.
An apothecary costs the same as coteaz and it is about a million times better,
It's not 1 more wound on the Smite. Our Smites are 1 damage (unless you're a Daemon then it's 3). The Librarian's Smite is 1-3 base with a potential 1-6. That's handy.
My take is that you can easily take a Librarian with an aura generator if you want to without much loss. That said, Librarians shine best in GK + Ally armies since you're putting less of a focus on auras anyway (or taking Guilliman and his 'the entire Imperium' aura).
Hey guys, quick question. How does an inquisitor's Unquestionable Wisdom ability interact with our Ancient's Banner? Does the offering of leadership value replace your base or modified value, or rather, do we get a leadership value of 9, then the +1 from our banner?
The two abilities don't interact, you ether use your own leadership (with the +1) or the inquisitor's one.
Why would they not? I appreciate you weighing in on this, but can I ask if there is a citation to make this evident? Unless there is, It seems there are two valid interpretations of the interaction. Again using Coteaz as an example (in this case using the +1 Ld warlord trait)
A. You add the banner bonus to your leadership and then replace the value with Coteaz' 11.
B. You replace your leadership value with Coteaz' 11 and still have the proper keywords thus gaining +1 Ld from the banner thereafter.
Lacking an order of operations, one would assume the controlling player decides in which order these things happen. Am I missing some obvious rule?
It's not 1 more wound on the Smite. Our Smites are 1 damage (unless you're a Daemon then it's 3). The Librarian's Smite is 1-3 base with a potential 1-6. That's handy.
GK smite deals 1 dmg. Regular smite deals 1d3, wich is an average of 2. Actually the average, counting the chance for 1d6, is 2.14. So ok, not 1 more wound but 1.14 (really the averages are 0.83 and 1.78 because of the chance to miss). So you gain almost an extra wound on the smite for taking a librarian. In exchange, the GM is 614% more effective in combat and has a useful aura. Just the bolter on the GM does between 0.42 and 2.12 wounds a turn. How is taking a librarian not much of a loss? It is a ridiculous loss of points. Literally any other choice in the codex is better (except for the techmarine, maybe) for its cost. And I would really like for it to not be the case, since I've been using two of them for a year, but until out codex is released they are just unplayable.
Lacking an order of operations, one would assume the controlling player decides in which order these things happen. Am I missing some obvious rule?
There is no order, because Coteaz does not let you replace anything, he just lets you use his leadership. Coteaz LD is 10. GK guy is LD 9 + 1 for the banner, so 10. So when it comes to rolling, you can either use your 10 or Coteaz's 10, your choice.
It's not 1 more wound on the Smite. Our Smites are 1 damage (unless you're a Daemon then it's 3). The Librarian's Smite is 1-3 base with a potential 1-6. That's handy.
GK smite deals 1 dmg. Regular smite deals 1d3, wich is an average of 2. Actually the average, counting the chance for 1d6, is 2.14. So ok, not 1 more wound but 1.14 (really the averages are 0.83 and 1.78 because of the chance to miss). So you gain almost an extra wound on the smite for taking a librarian.
This is where averages are misleading. You're paying for the potential damage and the threat it can project. Enemies inherently are more careful when facing a potential 6 mortal wounds rather than a guaranteed 1 mortal wound.
In exchange, the GM is 614% more effective in combat
And much like Nairul asked you to show your math (which we're still waiting on) you need to show your math again here too. Might as well throw in the math for the Smite calc above to while you're at it.
There is no order, because Coteaz does not let you replace anything, he just lets you use his leadership. Coteaz LD is 10. GK guy is LD 9 + 1 for the banner, so 10. So when it comes to rolling, you can either use your 10 or Coteaz's 10, your choice.
I guess the question is why must the banner bonus come before the use of the Inquisitor's Ld? There does not seem to be a requirement to go in that order. GK guys can and do use Coteaz Ld, and then gain the banner bonus meets all criteria just as well, right? Where is the rule that says the banner bonus comes first? You are very likely correct but I'd still like to show something on paper the next time the issue comes up in game. I rather liked the Purge Soul/Leadership trick in play and plan to use it again for shock value on other friends.
Why would they not? I appreciate you weighing in on this, but can I ask if there is a citation to make this evident? Unless there is, It seems there are two valid interpretations of the interaction. Again using Coteaz as an example (in this case using the +1 Ld warlord trait)
A. You add the banner bonus to your leadership and then replace the value with Coteaz' 11.
B. You replace your leadership value with Coteaz' 11 and still have the proper keywords thus gaining +1 Ld from the banner thereafter.
Lacking an order of operations, one would assume the controlling player decides in which order these things happen. Am I missing some obvious rule?
So the wording on Coteaz says you can use his leadership instead of your own. Your leadership gets a +1 to the banner, but his doesn't. So the banner doesn't apply if you use his leadership. If it did say "replace" in there, I'd agree with you that it could stack.
However, I would think that, since Coteaz is within 6" of himself, and adds 1 to his own leadership characteristic to make a total of 11, that if you were to use his leadership characteristic, the leadership characteristic you would be using would be 11. Note that it's still not YOUR leadership characteristic (for whatever given unit is "you" in this case) but it is the one you are using.
And much like Nairul asked you to show your math (which we're still waiting on) you need to show your math again here too. Might as well throw in the math for the Smite calc above to while you're at it.
I'm sorry but I don't think this is the place for me to teach you elementary mathematics. If you think I'm making up easily verifiable facts to deliberately mislead you, you are free to do your own math. There's no point in bloating the post unnecessarily.
I guess the question is why must the banner bonus come before the use of the Inquisitor's Ld? There does not seem to be a requirement to go in that order. GK guys can and do use Coteaz Ld, and then gain the banner bonus meets all criteria just as well, right? Where is the rule that says the banner bonus comes first? You are very likely correct but I'd still like to show something on paper the next time the issue comes up in game. I rather liked the Purge Soul/Leadership trick in play and plan to use it again for shock value on other friends.
Yet again, there's no order because Coteaz gives you no bonus nor modifies your leadership in any way. GK leadership and Coteaz's leadership are separate entities and don't interact in any way, you just have the option of using one or the other. With the warlord's trait it will always be 11. Either you use Coteaz's (10+1) or the GK's (9+1+1).
And much like Nairul asked you to show your math (which we're still waiting on) you need to show your math again here too. Might as well throw in the math for the Smite calc above to while you're at it.
I'm sorry but I don't think this is the place for me to teach you elementary mathematics. If you think I'm making up easily verifiable facts to deliberately mislead you, you are free to do your own math. There's no point in bloating the post unnecessarily.
The problem with that is that your assertion is fundamentally worthless, for multiple reasons. Firstly, we don't know what context "the GM is 614% more effective in combat" has. Melee? Shooting? Against what? A grot? Terminators? Flyers? A baneblade? Himself? Even if someone spent the effort to recreate your math to derive the same outcome, odds are I couldn't pick the same set of parameters required. Matter of fact, I recall an elementary mathematics teacher I had some 20 years ago who would have said that your work was useless because you didn't properly label your units and would have counted it wrong.
Secondly, we exist in a forum where people flippantly declare "Forge world units are mathematically overpowered compared to GW ones! I can prove it but I won't waste my time." That statement takes about three seconds to produce, but would take significantly longer to prove, for whatever 'proof' happens to mean to anyone in that situation. When proof means "whatever I feel it should mean for me to be right", proof could well be impossible.
Thirdly, you could have also simply made a mistake. I see it happen a lot around here, and I suspect you're as fallible as anyone else.
Fourthly, if you're worried about 'bloat', toss some spoiler tags around that gak. A smart guy like you can probably figure that out.
Fifthly, dude, that's kind of an unnecessarily arrogant response. You came into this world soaking wet and forcefully ejected from a vagina just like everyone else. Lose the attitude, man. Please.
And much like Nairul asked you to show your math (which we're still waiting on) you need to show your math again here too. Might as well throw in the math for the Smite calc above to while you're at it.
I'm sorry but I don't think this is the place for me to teach you elementary mathematics. If you think I'm making up easily verifiable facts to deliberately mislead you, you are free to do your own math. There's no point in bloating the post unnecessarily.
The problem with that is that your assertion is fundamentally worthless, for multiple reasons. Firstly, we don't know what context "the GM is 614% more effective in combat" has. Melee? Shooting? Against what? A grot? Terminators? Flyers? A baneblade? Himself? Even if someone spent the effort to recreate your math to derive the same outcome, odds are I couldn't pick the same set of parameters required. Matter of fact, I recall an elementary mathematics teacher I had some 20 years ago who would have said that your work was useless because you didn't properly label your units and would have counted it wrong.
Secondly, we exist in a forum where people flippantly declare "Forge world units are mathematically overpowered compared to GW ones! I can prove it but I won't waste my time." That statement takes about three seconds to produce, but would take significantly longer to prove, for whatever 'proof' happens to mean to anyone in that situation. When proof means "whatever I feel it should mean for me to be right", proof could well be impossible.
Thirdly, you could have also simply made a mistake. I see it happen a lot around here, and I suspect you're as fallible as anyone else.
Fourthly, if you're worried about 'bloat', toss some spoiler tags around that gak. A smart guy like you can probably figure that out.
Fifthly, dude, that's kind of an unnecessarily arrogant response. You came into this world soaking wet and forcefully ejected from a vagina just like everyone else. Lose the attitude, man. Please.
Well, someone beat me to it for the most part. Especially about the GM.
Firstly, asking for context and asking about the method is an entirely different think. As for the GM specifically, by combat I meant close combat. About the target, I'm assuming one you can use every stat of the weapon against, so something like a space marine with multiple wounds. The specific % of course can vary, but the point was not to show an exact percentage for every situation but just to show how ridiculous the difference is ( on some targets is 300%, on some 800%, does not really matter). Glad to clarify it for you. About your teacher, l''m not here to prove myself or be reviewed in any way, so not relevant at all.
Secondly, quickly made up statements are quickly disproven. How much dmg an smite averages is nothing mysterious and anyone can work it out and correct me if I'm wrong, and I would welcome it.
Thirdly, see second point.
Forthly, It's not that much about the post being too big, is about not being willing to do extra work because some people are lazy.
Fifthly, you think my answer shows arrogance, I think your question shows lack of respect by not bothering to look for the answer yourself. I remember some teacher telling me to not ask someone for an answer before looking it up or trying to solve it by myself first.
Seizeman wrote: Firstly, asking for context and asking about the method is an entirely different think. As for the GM specifically, by combat I meant close combat. About the target, I'm assuming one you can use every stat of the weapon against, so something like a space marine with multiple wounds. The specific % of course can vary, but the point was not to show an exact percentage for every situation but just to show how ridiculous the difference is ( on some targets is 300%, on some 800%, does not really matter). Glad to clarify it for you. About your teacher, l''m not here to prove myself or be reviewed in any way, so not relevant at all.
Secondly, quickly made up statements are quickly disproven. How much dmg an smite averages is nothing mysterious and anyone can work it out and correct me if I'm wrong, and I would welcome it.
Thirdly, see second point.
Forthly, It's not that much about the post being too big, is about not being willing to do extra work because some people are lazy.
Fifthly, you think my answer shows arrogance, I think your question shows lack of respect by not bothering to look for the answer yourself. I remember some teacher telling me to not ask someone for an answer before looking it up or trying to solve it by myself first.
With this, I consider this matter closed.
I'm still patiently waiting for the math behind the Doomglaive numbers you gave. Feel free to put the calculations in <spoiler> brackets if you'd like to keep the post short.
Also -- if we're talking about the viability of a non-GK Librarian in a GK list... you've got to consider the nice powers he's bringing from the Librarius Discipline. And also the combi-plasma.
Seizeman you have been making tons of claims regarding mathhammer but you haven't produced any alongside your claims. Start doing that or we'll just write you off like we do with certain Tau players we did last edition regarding math. We'll always believe the numbers.
Melee for a Grand Master armed with falchions (160 points) against Space Marines
A: 6 S: 4 AP: -2 D: d3 @ BS or WS: 2+ Reroll 1s to hit
vs T: 4 sv 3+
Damage Outcomes percent
0 932 9.3%
1 948 9.5%
2 1248 12.5%
3 1725 17.2%
4 1354 13.5%
5 1270 12.7%
6 1001 10.0%
7 603 6.0%
8 420 4.2%
9 277 2.8%
10 118 1.2%
11 62 0.6%
12 29 0.3%
13 8 0.1%
14 3 0.0%
15 2 0.0%
That's assuming swings in melee only. If you want to talk about Smite then for the Librarian:
66.7% chance of 1d3 mortal wounds. 33.3% chance of any given number of wounds, so 44.4% total chance of outcome of 2-3 mortal wounds.
16.6% chance of 1d6 mortal wounds. 16.6% chance of any given number of wounds, so 13.8% total chance of outcome of 2-6 mortal wounds.
Smite for the Grand Master:
83.3% chance of 1 mortal wound. That's it.
Grand master usually wins by 3 wounds or so. About double the damage. That's also assuming a more favorable configuration of weapons for the Librarian than you'd probably normally take.
Once you start considering T8, you can kind of begin to identify where the change in the curve starts:
In that particular case, they're looking much closer when you take into account smite. Anything with 2+ armor (or invul saves) is going to just make that sway closer toward the librarian as well, though you could run so many tests, you might go a little nutty.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, I did all that assuming multiwound models, and adding the number of wounds together. I suspect that the reality is even closer between the two for single wound models. I'll have that together in a little while.
In the case of the librarian vs GM, we were talking about a librarian with staff and shield (so no ranged weapon). I assumed the GM was equipped with a hammer as there is no reason to have him use anything else. Really there's no point in being so exhaustive when only a few cases are relevant.
So 60% chance of 1-2 wounds with the libby, and 60% chance of 2-4 with the GM, but then you have about a 50% chance of 1 more wound with the libby smite than you do the GM smite, and the Libby has a higher overall ceiling for wounds.
I'd... still go with the GM, because of the similarity in price and the huge reroll aura the GM gives, but I could see cases where it would make sense to have ONE libby somewhere.
Seizeman wrote: In the case of the librarian vs GM, we were talking about a librarian with staff and shield (so no ranged weapon). I assumed the GM was equipped with a hammer as there is no reason to have him use anything else. Really there's no point in being so exhaustive when only a few cases are relevant.
Well, that case is comparing a unit designed to stay alive at all costs with a unit designed to wreck as much face as possible. I was trying to at least make them seem somewhat similar in role for the sake of showing whether the extra smite was worth it.
Hi all. Really pleased to read all the tactic, feel and advice here !
But I have a question : I've just tested the doomglaive dreadnought and... It's me or he's irrelevant against a normal venerable dread with close combat weapon (S12 vs S9) and a autocanon?
I plan to use the custodes dread with spear as a doomglaive, so the model doesn't really matters but man, i'd like to use our SPECIAL ONE!
kaal wrote: Hi all. Really pleased to read all the tactic, feel and advice here !
But I have a question : I've just tested the doomglaive dreadnought and... It's me or he's irrelevant against a normal venerable dread with close combat weapon (S12 vs S9) and a autocanon?
I plan to use the custodes dread with spear as a doomglaive, so the model doesn't really matters but man, i'd like to use our SPECIAL ONE!
The Doomglaive does D6 wounds instead of 3. Also, ours is a psyker, so it can GoI itself around or whatever. That's about the biggest difference.
Well,a GK venerable dread with close combat weapon and autocannon is 185 points. That's 17 more points than the doomglaive. If you pick a regular SM one, it costs 3 point less but looses its psychic powers and all the benefits of being a GK (being targetable by your powers, being able to be transported and getting GM rerolls).
The dread combat weapon is actually pretty similar to the doomglaive. S9 is not that much different to S12 in most cases, as it is only relevant vs T5 and T6. About damage, the flat 3 damage of the regular dread weapon si better against everything with 3 wounds or less and worse against anything with more wounds. Considering that you want your dread to deal with vehicles and monsters, I think the 1d6 of the doomglaive has a slight edge. But really the biggest point is the dread CCW costs twice as much as the doomglaive, so all in all the doomglaive wins over the dread CCW.
About the psycannon vs the autocannon, the psycannon fires 50% more shots at half the range. Most of your army has a 24" range and your dread wants to move forward anyway, so just because of its damage potential the psycannon wins hands down. In fact I'd say the heavy psycannon is the best weapon available to any hybrid dreadnought. Even if you want to shoot at more than 24" some times, there's usually nothing else in your army with the same range, and 4 or 8 shots (if you play two of them) won't snipe any relevant targets.
Also the regular GK venerable only has smite while the doomglaive has an additional power. It's pretty useful not having to depend on another unit for your GoI.
kaal wrote: Hi all. Really pleased to read all the tactic, feel and advice here !
But I have a question : I've just tested the doomglaive dreadnought and... It's me or he's irrelevant against a normal venerable dread with close combat weapon (S12 vs S9) and a autocanon?
I plan to use the custodes dread with spear as a doomglaive, so the model doesn't really matters but man, i'd like to use our SPECIAL ONE!
The Doomglaive does D6 wounds instead of 3. Also, ours is a psyker, so it can GoI itself around or whatever. That's about the biggest difference.
Keep in mind against toughness 1-4,7 & 8 they do the same damage. Against T5,6 bad 9+ is the only place a dreadnought ccw does more. Since a land raider is t8 I will be rare to face tougher?
kaal wrote: Hi all. Really pleased to read all the tactic, feel and advice here !
But I have a question : I've just tested the doomglaive dreadnought and... It's me or he's irrelevant against a normal venerable dread with close combat weapon (S12 vs S9) and a autocanon?
I plan to use the custodes dread with spear as a doomglaive, so the model doesn't really matters but man, i'd like to use our SPECIAL ONE!
The Doomglaive does D6 wounds instead of 3. Also, ours is a psyker, so it can GoI itself around or whatever. That's about the biggest difference.
Keep in mind against toughness 1-4,7 & 8 they do the same damage. Against T5,6 bad 9+ is the only place a dreadnought ccw does more. Since a land raider is t8 I will be rare to face tougher?
The only T9+ thing I can think of that's not Apocalypse is the Knight Porphyrion. T5 might make it handy against Custodes and Gravis armor though.
There's no Apoc Book I know of, but some tournaments, at least Nova that I saw, are holding 'Apoc Events' where you're encouraged to bring 2,500+ points and true Titans.
I've been toying around with a GK list that's based more around toughness/more staying power than most PAGK lists. In fact, there are no PAGKs in this army. So far, this is what I came up with for 2k, using a combination of Vanguard + Spearhead detachments, netting me 5CP:
I have a one. What do you guys think about BC stern? It seems like he falls into the same place he always did that if you use his reroll you're really screwing yourself over later.
A Purgation Squad with 4x Incinerators will cost a little over 150.
A Purifier Squad with 2x Incinerators will cost a little over 160.
The difference between the two is about 10 points. The difference is: the purifier squad has 2x more melee weapons, and has a D6 smite instead of a 1wound smite, but it loses 2d6 auto-hits with flamers at 8", both in shooting and overwatch.
A Purgation Squad with 4x Incinerators will cost a little over 150.
A Purifier Squad with 2x Incinerators will cost a little over 160.
The difference between the two is about 10 points. The difference is: the purifier squad has 2x more melee weapons, and has a D6 smite instead of a 1wound smite, but it loses 2d6 auto-hits with flamers at 8", both in shooting and overwatch.
I think I will experiment more with these guys.
While they deal more damage output than a Psilencer, the Incinerator is significantly less damage-per-points especially at PAGK wargear costs (see my mathhammer on pg. 9). So if you're still committed to incinerators, then either squad will require a delivery system (AKA Storm Raven/Rhino/Land Raider). Gate of Infinity doesn't cut it, because you're outside of 8". And for Purifiers, even with the proper delivery system, you run a risk -- after suffering D6 smites (per unit) a smart opponent may be capable of removing their models such that your Incinerators are out of range in the subsequent shooting phase!
So I strongly urge you to consider Psilencers for all PAGK units. And while I value NDK's over a Purgation squad in the Heavy Support role, you can still get some nasty shooting out of a 5-man Purgation squad armed with Psilencers (113 points). Naturally, you should only run one of these squads and cast Gate of Infinity on them Turn 1 to ignore the -1 Penalty for moving w/ Heavy weapons.
Anyone here have experience with both Land Raiders and Storm ravens? Trying to decide which one I want. Land raider seems easier to manage because of turning limitations on flyers but the fact that a dread can jump in the Stormraven along with my Paladins and characters is a huge plus.
Consider a standard raider can only take 5 terminators not sure its worth the points even though it can bring some heavy shooting with its lascannons.
The crusader is an interesting prospect because of the extra transport capabilites but the fact that your giving up firepower makes it less appealing.
Taking this into consideration to me it seems like the Stormraven really is the only viable option because it fills the shooting roles of both variants and can transport the same capacities.
Spartan117xyz wrote: I have a one. What do you guys think about BC stern? It seems like he falls into the same place he always did that if you use his reroll you're really screwing yourself over later.
Thoughts?
My thoughts:
1) No point running any Brother-Captain unless you're putting him with Purifiers.
2) Stern casting 2 powers is a nice bonus, as it allows for Smite AND Purge Soul. The regular Brother-Captain can only cast 1 power (should be Purge Soul as well!). Whichever one you take, they should almost always get Inspiring Presence WL Trait to make 'em Ld 10. Consider Deep Striking a Paladin Ancient for Ld 11.
3) Sadly, Stern can't take a Psilencer/Deamon Hammer while a regular Brother-Captain can. It feels bad to waist that 2+ BS/WS on just a Storm Bolter/Power Sword. But since he's running with deadly Purifiers, you may not even get a chance to use a Daemon Hammer after your Alpha Strike.
4) GK being heavily dependent on their Alpha Strike, "The Strands of Fate" rule is actually kind of nice synergy -- we want our Alpha Strike to hit as hard as possible, so if it does the job then you're NOT screwing yourself over later. Also, RAW "The Strands of Fate" can be used to re-roll a single failed hit or wound roll for ANY unit in your army, whilst the saving throw re-roll can only be for Stern.
TLDR If you're running Purifiers, take Stern over a regular Brother-Captain.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TheMostWize wrote: Anyone here have experience with both Land Raiders and Storm ravens? Trying to decide which one I want. Land raider seems easier to manage because of turning limitations on flyers but the fact that a dread can jump in the Stormraven along with my Paladins and characters is a huge plus.
Consider a standard raider can only take 5 terminators not sure its worth the points even though it can bring some heavy shooting with its lascannons.
The crusader is an interesting prospect because of the extra transport capabilites but the fact that your giving up firepower makes it less appealing.
Taking this into consideration to me it seems like the Stormraven really is the only viable option because it fills the shooting roles of both variants and can transport the same capacities.
My thoughts:
1) Lots of people in this forum love the Stormraven. I don't. I've played against plenty of shooty armies that pop a Stormraven on Turn 1. Normally that would be okay if it were only a delivery system. But the Stormraven is too expensive to be only a delivery system. It's got to shoot for at least 2 turns to get it's points back.
2) For pure delivery system, I prefer advancing Rhino(s) popping smoke. Ultra cheap and effective.
3) I have no idea why you would stick Paladins in a transport when they can Deep Strike. Transports seem better served for all the GK units that can't Deep Strike (i.e. Purifiers and Characters).
I've been toying around with a GK list that's based more around toughness/more staying power than most PAGK lists. In fact, there are no PAGKs in this army. So far, this is what I came up with for 2k, using a combination of Vanguard + Spearhead detachments, netting me 5CP:
Heavy Support:
NDK , dreadfist , Greatsword , H. Psycannon 175
NDK , dreadfist , Greatsword , Gatlling Psilencer 165
NDK , dreadfist , Greatsword , H. Incinerator 185
TOTAL: 1999.
The plan is to place all the NDKs/DN on the table and have the paladins/characters DS. I tried keeping the NDKs fairly cheap.
I was also considering the Doomglaive dread, but I don't have the datasheet/pointscost for that one atm.
Any thoughts?
My thoughts:
1) Replace Voldus with Draigo. Voldus is entirely unnecessary due to Psychic Focus and Draigo should be an auto-include in any GK list over 1000 points.
2) I see no point running a Brother Captain, or any other GKHQ for that matter. Double smite range isn't that helpful unless you're running Purifiers. So you could keep it at 4 CP, in which case you'd have to drop an NDK or something. If you desperately want 5 CP then you might as well take a non-GKHQ... I recommend a Librarian in Terminator Armour for the Librarius discipline!
3) You should be taking as many Psilencers as you can on those Paladin units. Also, see previous mathhammer (a few pages back) on Halberd vs. 2x Falchions.
4) If you want a Dreadnought with a CCW, take the Doomglaive instead of a normal Dreadnought.
5) I understand you need to satisfy Matched Play reinforcements rules, but starting NDKs on the table is a goddamn travesty. Here's what you can do instead... Give all NDK's teleporters. Combine the paladins into one unit of 10 models (4x Psilencers!). Start Paladins and 3x Dreadnoughts on the field. Turn 1 don't move the Paladins, Gate them! -- bring them to wherever you set up Draigo and the two shooty NDKs. Those Psilencers will be hitting on 3s rerolling misses. Now you're cooking with fire!
Yea I'm not looking for simply a delivery system. Looking for something that can deliver and do work.
The reason I need pallies in a transport is becauae my army consists of all Paladins dreads and characters. Can't deep strike them all because of 50 percent rule.
Sure it might not be the strongest list. But its going to look awesome and that's what I care most about. Have to find ways to optimize that.
Terminators can only fit in either a Land Raider or a Stormraven so those are my options.
TheMostWize wrote: Yea I'm not looking for simply a delivery system. Looking for something that can deliver and do work.
The reason I need pallies in a transport is becauae my army consists of all Paladins dreads and characters. Can't deep strike them all because of 50 percent rule.
Right -- well the Dreads don't deep strike, so they can work towards that 50% requirement. And I'm saying you might be able to finagle your list (via combining the 2x Paladin units into one) so that most of the Pallies and NDKs can start in Deep Strike. Remember, between the Pallies and NDKs one unit CAN and SHOULD start on the table in order to make use of Turn 1 Gate of Infinity, thus ignoring the -1 penalty to hit w/ Heavy weapons.
It's something to consider. There's no use paying for a Stormraven or Land Raider when you can build a similar-looking list without needing either.
Curious what you all think of purgation squads all toting psilencers popping out of assault cannon razorbacks
How about 3 purgation squads armed for melee (they are cheaper than strike or purifiers, thinking outside the box here) coming out of a landraider crusader?
Smotejob wrote: Curious what you all think of purgation squads all toting psilencers popping out of assault cannon razorbacks
How about 3 purgation squads armed for melee (they are cheaper than strike or purifiers, thinking outside the box here) coming out of a landraider crusader?
Both pretty solid picks which should work well together. You might want a GM or Draigo tagging along for those re-rolls though, considering all hitting on 4+
Are you sure about the purgation squads? I think they're the same points as strike squads (19+2). Definitely cheaper than purifiers though.
Smotejob wrote: Curious what you all think of purgation squads all toting psilencers popping out of assault cannon razorbacks
How about 3 purgation squads armed for melee (they are cheaper than strike or purifiers, thinking outside the box here) coming out of a landraider crusader?
Both pretty solid picks which should work well together. You might want a GM or Draigo tagging along for those re-rolls though, considering all hitting on 4+
Are you sure about the purgation squads? I think they're the same points as strike squads (19+2). Definitely cheaper than purifiers though.
Oh battlescribe was throwing me off ... Ok either works.
Not a terrible idea, but for 15 more points you could take 2 min squads of Paladins which are more durable. Just lose a smite and some storm bolter fire.
That's what I'd take, but either could be good. Strike squads at least fill the troop slots which is a bonus.
As a heavy support choice, I feel Purgations are outclassed by NDK's. But if you'd like to run them, they work best as 4x Psilencers. No transport required. Keep them in cover, preferably holding objectives in your deployment zone. Out of Psilencer range? Don't move them! Just gate, and stay hitting on 3+.
TheMostWize wrote: I don't run NDKs doom glaives are superior in my opinion and cheaper. That being said both of them starting on the board for sure.
I think purgation squads with Psilencers is excellent. If I run PAGK that's the first thing I'll be adding.
To each their own!
In a vacuum, I can understand your preference for Doomglaives over NDKs. But since I prefer shooty Draigo alpha-strike lists, I lean towards NDKs with Gatling Psilencer/Heavy Psycannon. The hit rerolls are just too juicy...
Currently, my 2 HQs are Draigo, and Voldus. But, I feel like until more psychic powers are released for GK, i have massive diminishing returns on HQs.
Voldus can cast all 3, but in reality, the only powers he ends up using are smite, and hammerhand.
In effect, i'm paying 190 for a solid beat stick, but a bit overcosted for what he does without the psychic. I am really never hurting for deny attempts.
So i can't really justify Voldus.
With the new keyword system, I have quite a few options.
Considering:
1. Celestine. She's really strong, and can act-of-faith herself into position pretty quick, and is very durable. I could bring her, and a Superia, and pick up 20 points.
2. Inquisitor Greyfax. Preventing my opponent from firing overwatch, or taking control of an enemy character to make a shooting attack, is pretty neat. For instance, getting her in range and taking control of Pask, would be just plain awesome. I can't say exact point costs but she'd leave me with somewhere between 104 and 106 points to play with.
3. Astartes Chapter Librarian in Terminator Armor. This is kind of a meh option for me, since i'd have to deep strike him, and my deep strike slots are crowded as it is. I would have to do some serious reworking on my list to fit this in.
Thoughts?
We're hurting in the anti-horde department. Any ideas? I would prefer something with high mobility, or something that could hitch a ride in a Stormraven.
Celestine is really, hands down, the best HQ for this kind of slot fulfillment.
1. She has Fly so she can assault enemy fliers.
2. She has a flamer for helping with hordes.
3. She can move 24" in a turn.
4. She can Deny the Witch spells cast at her.
5. She can fight 2 times if she starts your turn in combat.
Greyfax brings some great tools, but if you're just looking to maximize a HQ slot in the GK's with a non-GK source, I don't think Celestine can be beat.
Audustum wrote: Celestine is really, hands down, the best HQ for this kind of slot fulfillment.
1. She has Fly so she can assault enemy fliers.
2. She has a flamer for helping with hordes.
3. She can move 24" in a turn.
4. She can Deny the Witch spells cast at her.
5. She can fight 2 times if she starts your turn in combat.
Greyfax brings some great tools, but if you're just looking to maximize a HQ slot in the GK's with a non-GK source, I don't think Celestine can be beat.
This is kind of what i'm thinking. And, having an extra unit on the table means i can put the NDK in deep strike.
If I were to go the route of taking Purifiers in either a Razorback or Storm raven.
Would it be worth taking an incinerator as a weapon upgrade, as in theory you'll be trying to get within that short range for the close range smite.
L0adedDice wrote: If I were to go the route of taking Purifiers in either a Razorback or Storm raven.
Would it be worth taking an incinerator as a weapon upgrade, as in theory you'll be trying to get within that short range for the close range smite.
Or is it just not worth the points.
They seem overcosted to me. Compared to the psilencer you get about the same number of hits, less range, more strength and AP, but less damage, but for some reason it costs 14 points (vs 4 points for the psilencer). If a squad is getting out of a transport close enough to the enemy to use flamers, I'd just keep them kitted out with falchions and bolters and save your points. Take advantage of the excellent and free melee weapons GK have available.
Audustum wrote: Celestine is really, hands down, the best HQ for this kind of slot fulfillment.
1. She has Fly so she can assault enemy fliers.
2. She has a flamer for helping with hordes.
3. She can move 24" in a turn.
4. She can Deny the Witch spells cast at her.
5. She can fight 2 times if she starts your turn in combat.
Greyfax brings some great tools, but if you're just looking to maximize a HQ slot in the GK's with a non-GK source, I don't think Celestine can be beat.
Are you all finding Paladins to be worth the price? I can't seem to comfortably fit them into my lists. I'm trying to run them with a DH and then Falchions, which may be my problem.
It may just be due to the fact that I play against DEldar who are too fast for the Paladins to accomplish much, but I'd like to hear what you're all experiencing.
I run 10 man Interceptor squads, so pulling a Brotherhood Ancient down is more appealing to me than the Paladins, but maybe I'm playing wrong.
Bigfashizzel wrote: Are you all finding Paladins to be worth the price? I can't seem to comfortably fit them into my lists. I'm trying to run them with a DH and then Falchions, which may be my problem.
It may just be due to the fact that I play against DEldar who are too fast for the Paladins to accomplish much, but I'd like to hear what you're all experiencing.
I run 10 man Interceptor squads, so pulling a Brotherhood Ancient down is more appealing to me than the Paladins, but maybe I'm playing wrong.
I had some success taking 2-3 Vanguard Detachments with Paladins and Assassins as my Elite choices so I'd say they're worth it. Like a lot of GK stuff though, it depends what else you're packing. Paladins are good for Deep Strike onto an objective and menacing everything away from it with Bolter fire and the THREAT of a charge. They're slow enough a lot of things will get away without actually engaging them in melee though,
They are incredibly expensive, and the models designed to boost them like apothecary, and banner, just simply don't work in practice, nor are they worth the points.
In a best case scenario you'll get them into combat with something and either force a retreat or win outright, but then the entire unit is bogged down with a 5" move.
And if you're devoting that many points to sitting on objectives, you're well on your way to being tabled. Grey Knights = go right for the throat, immediately, or lose. At least, that's my experience.
L0adedDice wrote: Any thoughts on the vortimer Razorback, or is the twin Lascannon Razorback just better for an extra 20 pts
The assault cannon razorback is vastly better for 5 points more. Shame really, I was hoping that heavy psycannons would be more prevalent on FW vehicles like land raider and razorback.
Hi guys, I have just started my GK army by picking up a steal on ebay. I have about 15 GK terminators with mixed weapon loadouts and 2 NDK and a storm raven.
I've got a 75PL game coming up against a CSM/Daemons player in a relatively casual meta so my opponents don't mind me saying this unit is equipped with different weapons than modelled etc. I am looking for advice on how to splash them into a mixed battalion detachment with scars and possibly culexus.vindicare for my first ever game with them. Then going on to purchase more units to flesh out a true GK army
Any advice would be appreciated.
I know he will be running DP's and possibly soulgrinders so I was thinking of deepstriking terminators/paladins in to try and deal with them maybe with Daemon hammers. Is that a good idea? Also how can I best use the NDK?
Marmatag wrote: I've found Paladins to just not be worth it.
They are incredibly expensive, and the models designed to boost them like apothecary, and banner, just simply don't work in practice, nor are they worth the points.
In a best case scenario you'll get them into combat with something and either force a retreat or win outright, but then the entire unit is bogged down with a 5" move.
And if you're devoting that many points to sitting on objectives, you're well on your way to being tabled. Grey Knights = go right for the throat, immediately, or lose. At least, that's my experience.
PAGK > Paladins.
Yep - totally agree. I'm really not feeling purifiers though. What Am I feeling? Lots of strike squads,interceptors, and twin las razorbacks.
Marmatag wrote: I've found Paladins to just not be worth it.
They are incredibly expensive, and the models designed to boost them like apothecary, and banner, just simply don't work in practice, nor are they worth the points.
In a best case scenario you'll get them into combat with something and either force a retreat or win outright, but then the entire unit is bogged down with a 5" move.
And if you're devoting that many points to sitting on objectives, you're well on your way to being tabled. Grey Knights = go right for the throat, immediately, or lose. At least, that's my experience.
PAGK > Paladins.
Yep - totally agree. I'm really not feeling purifiers though. What Am I feeling? Lots of strike squads,interceptors, and twin las razorbacks.
I must admit I haven't been sold on the standard strike squads or interceptors so far. Unless I'm doing it wrong (possible) or missing something (also possible), I'm still only firing a bunch of stormbolter shots that have AP 0 and my opponents get saves. Whereas I'm using higher pointed marines. Granted if I get into combat then thats good but I'm still T4 and 3+ but higher cost.
Marmatag wrote: I've found Paladins to just not be worth it.
They are incredibly expensive, and the models designed to boost them like apothecary, and banner, just simply don't work in practice, nor are they worth the points.
In a best case scenario you'll get them into combat with something and either force a retreat or win outright, but then the entire unit is bogged down with a 5" move.
And if you're devoting that many points to sitting on objectives, you're well on your way to being tabled. Grey Knights = go right for the throat, immediately, or lose. At least, that's my experience.
PAGK > Paladins.
Yep - totally agree. I'm really not feeling purifiers though. What Am I feeling? Lots of strike squads,interceptors, and twin las razorbacks.
I must admit I haven't been sold on the standard strike squads or interceptors so far. Unless I'm doing it wrong (possible) or missing something (also possible), I'm still only firing a bunch of stormbolter shots that have AP 0 and my opponents get saves. Whereas I'm using higher pointed marines. Granted if I get into combat then thats good but I'm still T4 and 3+ but higher cost.
Well you really want to get them in combat. Storm bolters do a lot of damage for me - but 50% of the damage is done in CC. Need to get both out of them.
We just don't got the points to afford support units, like I was trying to tell Seizeman a couple pages ago. Draigo is good because he is such a huge multiplier AND beatstick. I'm sad termies are proving not the best again.
Quickjager wrote: We just don't got the points to afford support units, like I was trying to tell Seizeman a couple pages ago. Draigo is good because he is such a huge multiplier AND beatstick. I'm sad termies are proving not the best again.
I think they probably will get a price drop in the codex. Space marine tactical terms went down in points by 8. I think we can expect at least a 6 points reduction.
Purifiers getting 2 attacks again and a range increase on smite would be great. Incinerators getting a 10 inch range would be nice as well, as would all guns becoming assault.
I'm really wondering what they're gonna do with us after seeing the sweeping price reductions SM got. Shame it looks like Konor will be over by then.
What do you guys think of a hybrid list with GK and then some AM Scions pulled in to provide the special weapon support? I was contemplating something similar to an old 3rd ed DH list, and that seems like the most direct (and competitive) means of getting to it.
looking at how the current SM codex looks, mixed armies can still be a thing, while keeping any army wide rules.
In the marine codex, you unlock all the chapter tactics, strategems, warlord traits and relics IF:
- your whole army is battleforged.
- There is one detachment in the army that is pure space marines from one of the codex compliant chapters. (there is a paragraph that says that none of those special rules can be used by none-codex marines like BA, SW, GKs, DW,...)
I think the GK codex will be very similar. If you have one "GK only" detachment, you unlock all the goodies. But all the other imperial stuff will need to fit into a seperate detachment (and that can be generic imperial).
If you have a pure SM detachment, and then a detachment that has, let's say, guardsmen and more Space Marines... do the Space Marines in the second detachment get the benefit of the bonus rules?
Rihgu wrote: If you have a pure SM detachment, and then a detachment that has, let's say, guardsmen and more Space Marines... do the Space Marines in the second detachment get the benefit of the bonus rules?
Yes as abilities are currently generated off keywords. If the new marines dex has new detachment specific rules then maybe not but if its abilities that use keywords then it doesn't matter what detachment
Rihgu wrote: If you have a pure SM detachment, and then a detachment that has, let's say, guardsmen and more Space Marines... do the Space Marines in the second detachment get the benefit of the bonus rules?
As it's worded in the codex: I would say no to chapter tactics/defenders of humanity, but yes to access to strategems.
It's worded as such in C: SM
"In this section you'll find rules for battle-forged armies that include SM detachments - That is, any detachment which only includes space marine units (as defined below - UM, IF, Sal, WS, RG,IH, CF, IF or BT). A space marine detachment is therefor one which only includes units with one of these keywords."
It then goes on to say:
Space Marine DETACHMENTS gain the following abilties:
- Defenders of humanity
- Chapter Tactics
So units that are then in generic Imperial detachments would not get these 2 rules.
However, there appears to be no such limitations for strategems worded in the codex. It just says that you have access to the strategems if you have a battle-forged army with a SM detachment as defined above. Mind you, it does mention that none-codex compliant Adeptus Astartes (only 2 examples are given: BA and SW, but one can assume this includes DA, GK and DW) can never benefit from the rules in the section 'Sons of the Primarchs" (all the rules like Defenders of humanity, chapter tactics, strategems, relics, warlord traits).
Rihgu wrote: If you have a pure SM detachment, and then a detachment that has, let's say, guardsmen and more Space Marines... do the Space Marines in the second detachment get the benefit of the bonus rules?
As it's worded in the codex: I would say no to chapter tactics/defenders of humanity, but yes to access to strategems.
It's worded as such in C: SM
"In this section you'll find rules for battle-forged armies that include SM detachments - That is, any detachment which only includes space marine units (as defined below - UM, IF, Sal, WS, RG,IH, CF, IF or BT). A space marine detachment is therefor one which only includes units with one of these keywords."
It then goes on to say:
Space Marine DETACHMENTS gain the following abilties:
- Defenders of humanity
- Chapter Tactics
So units that are then in generic Imperial detachments would not get these 2 rules.
However, there appears to be no such limitations for strategems worded in the codex. It just says that you have access to the strategems if you have a battle-forged army with a SM detachment as defined above. Mind you, it does mention that none-codex compliant Adeptus Astartes (only 2 examples are given: BA and SW, but one can assume this includes DA, GK and DW) can never benefit from the rules in the section 'Sons of the Primarchs" (all the rules like Defenders of humanity, chapter tactics, strategems, relics, warlord traits).
So I hope this clears it up somewhat.
It clears it up a bit. I guess I'll have to wait until I can get my mitts on a codex. Hopefully Grey Knights get it in the next few weeks
Draigo and the Ravens have their obvious uses. So i'll focus on how the other things performed.
The incinerators are very good. I ran into a list with multiple Culexis assassins. You need incinerators or flamers here, because they can only be hit on 6's. When you incinerate them for 14 auto-hits, which wound on 3s, it works well. In retrospect, I will continue to run them as a squad of purgators. Being able to drop them out of a ship and incinerate proved invaluable in 2 games.
Psilencers are good, especially against people who bring multi-wound models that fall in the 3-7 toughness range. (Eldar, i'm looking at you). Volume of shots alone, you'll be getting some wounds in. I'm not convinced that i'll keep them as a heavy choice. I may split this into 2x strike squads /w 2x psilencers (10 mans). I found that having them as a pure gun platform was nice, but they didn't contribute as my opponents were well versed in what they do, and either (a) targeted them or (b) maneuvered around them. They also depend on gate with this list and i failed it in 1 game which crippled their alpha.
The nemesis dreadknight looks like he's overcosted garbage in this list, but he's so durable. He only died in 1 game, and that was because i hurried to give my opponent another turn (which, ultimately, cost me the game, #niceguyproblems). You can drop this monster into the thick of combat and just gak on things like nobodies business. With the greathammer if you put it near tanks, it demands a response. And it's not easy to respond to a 12 wound, 2+/5++ big fat monster, that can gate itself out of a tarpit. And 18 overwatch dice, you expect to deal some hits, too. I like this guy more and more as i keep playing him. He's never MVP, but he's a really solid body on the table, and people are scared of him. He changes the game, every time, in my favor.
For 150 points Celestine is absolute cheese and i feel like a genuine "that guy" for bringing her. I'll just leave this here. If someone charges Celestine, or she heroic pile ins, she will get 18 attacks before the attacker can respond - 6 from her attacks, 6 from act of cheese, 6 from her normal activation. That's stupid - i don't know what else to say about it. I use this model and i think it should be nerfed massively, I just don't feel good beating people with it. She did 12 wounds to a wraithknight in the span of 1 game turn. That's not even fair.
Interceptors are surprisingly solid in maelstrom games, they have a 12" move, and can make a 1 time per game deep strike. 2 squads of 5 will spit out 40 boltgun dice, and with the falchions the squads have 11 melee attacks each, with an ap-2 d3 damage. Not shabby. Their true value lies in their mobility. In eternal war it's not super useful. but they shine in maelstrom.
Terminators are like my shock troops. Everyone seems them and immediately responds. They're a decent gun platform with 20 storm bolter dice, and also, 15 attacks from 5 models, when hammerhanded, means they're wounding t5-7 on 4's, and doing d3 damage per hit. The warding stave does help. These guys die in basically every game. But, it's not trivial to remove them. In one game they got charged and actually slaughtered the opposition, with the help of a Draigo pile in. But, this was also because my opponent rolled rather poorly. All in all, I like these, and I plan on keeping them in the hopes of getting a battalion.
Storm of fire was the perfect warlord trait for Draigo. He gives a basic bitch rend on wound rolls of 6 to all Grey Knights within 6". Well we puke out storm bolter shots like it's going out of style. Giving them some rend is wicked sick.
Storm of fire was the perfect warlord trait for Draigo. He gives a basic bitch rend on wound rolls of 6 to all Grey Knights within 6". Well we puke out storm bolter shots like it's going out of style. Giving them some rend is wicked sick.
Draigo has no chapter keyword, so Storm of fire does absolutely nothing on him.
Storm of fire was the perfect warlord trait for Draigo. He gives a basic bitch rend on wound rolls of 6 to all Grey Knights within 6". Well we puke out storm bolter shots like it's going out of style. Giving them some rend is wicked sick.
Draigo has no chapter keyword, so Storm of fire does absolutely nothing on him.
Grey Knights replace <chapter> with Grey Knights. It was ruled I could do it so i did.
For 150 points Celestine is absolute cheese and i feel like a genuine "that guy" for bringing her. I'll just leave this here. If someone charges Celestine, or she heroic pile ins, she will get 18 attacks before the attacker can respond - 6 from her attacks, 6 from act of cheese, 6 from her normal activation. That's stupid - i don't know what else to say about it. I use this model and i think it should be nerfed massively, I just don't feel good beating people with it. She did 12 wounds to a wraithknight in the span of 1 game turn. That's not even fair.
Wait I don't get it, why are you getting 18 attacks from Celestine before the person who charges her attacks? Or are you just talking about her using heroic intervention?
If she gets charged, the opponent will hit her first, then she'll get her six attacks, and then next turn she can AoF and attack normally. If she heroic interventions she will get 6 attacks, then next turn she can AoF and attack normally. Is that what you mean or am I missing something?
buddha wrote: What are people's thoughts about needing celestine's superiora?
Since they lost the ability to soak wounds for her I consider them completely superfluous.
Agreed. I think compared to last edition she is nowhere near as tough, however has a lot more offensive output and utility mostly thanks to acts of faith. Once the opponent starts to put serious hurt on her she will die pretty quick. She needs to use the character rule for protection rather than her little chickies.
Also the points cost for each of them is substantial, they're not worth anywhere near 50 points for just the regen rule, and a few power sword attacks doesn't make up for it.
I'm really hoping for a few more Grey Knight HQ choices that are viable from the new codex, hopefully not some flavour of 'hero in terminator armour'.
Storm of fire was the perfect warlord trait for Draigo. He gives a basic bitch rend on wound rolls of 6 to all Grey Knights within 6". Well we puke out storm bolter shots like it's going out of style. Giving them some rend is wicked sick.
Draigo has no chapter keyword, so Storm of fire does absolutely nothing on him.
Grey Knights replace <chapter> with Grey Knights. It was ruled I could do it so i did.
Grey Knights don't have "<chapter>", they have "Grey Knights" so this is an incorrect ruling.
Storm of fire was the perfect warlord trait for Draigo. He gives a basic bitch rend on wound rolls of 6 to all Grey Knights within 6". Well we puke out storm bolter shots like it's going out of style. Giving them some rend is wicked sick.
Draigo has no chapter keyword, so Storm of fire does absolutely nothing on him.
Grey Knights replace <chapter> with Grey Knights. It was ruled I could do it so i did.
Grey Knights don't have "<chapter>", they have "Grey Knights" so this is an incorrect ruling.
Without having seen the SM codex, in the index Roboute Guilliman, or Marneus Calgar, don't have <Chapter>, they have "Ultramarines". Would that make them unable to benefit as well?
In the rules described in this section we often refer to ‘Space Marines units’. This is shorthand for any ADEPTUS ASTARTES unit that has one of the following Faction keywords: <CHAPTER>, ULTRAMARINES, IMPERIAL
FISTS, SALAMANDERS, WHITE SCARS, RAVEN GUARD, IRON HANDS, CRIMSON FISTS or BLACK TEMPLARS. A Space Marines Detachment is therefore one which only includes units with one of these keywords. Note that other Space Marine Chapters, such as the Blood Angels and the Space Wolves, deviate significantly in terms of organisation and fighting styles. These Chapters therefore cannot make use of any of the rules or abilities listed in this section, and instead have their own rules..
This paragraph introduces the "section" that contains warlord traits, strategems, relics, chapter tactics, etc.
Well, it probably was the incorrect ruling. I didn't even think to try until it was ruled in favor of another Grey Knights player, and then i said, "hey let me see those traits." I didn't buy the book because I assumed it wouldn't work for me.
Anyway, that's a bit of a bummer. We could really have benefited from those traits, and stratagems.
Marmatag wrote: Well, it probably was the incorrect ruling. I didn't even think to try until it was ruled in favor of another Grey Knights player, and then i said, "hey let me see those traits." I didn't buy the book because I assumed it wouldn't work for me.
Anyway, that's a bit of a bummer. We could really have benefited from those traits, and stratagems.
Yeah it's a bummer. But don't worry, we're getting our own codex soon. And there's absolutely no way GW will shaft us this edition, right?
So yeah, Grey Knights have access to SM flyers in the codex. Good, bad, amazing?
I think I will use those almost exclusively as my starting on board part of the army. -1 to hit is powerful and they can get the firepower where needed.
The Relic 'Banner of Refined Flame' stands out for me - Gives a Paladin or Brotherhood Ancient a 6 inch range Purifier Smite - good way to amp up that assault out of the Stormraven. As written it doesn't seem to remove the Sacred Banner ability either, so you're still getting an Aura of +1 attacks.
A battleforged GK only army now gets +1 to all psychic/DtW tests, nice.
From what I could see of the points values, everything is the same.
Except for some reason they've increased the cost of Troop Terminators by 2 points. Now even less reason to bring them over Paladins. (Although Obj secured terminators will be nice).
Relics, Warlord Traits and Psychic powers are sweet, I'm happy.
I don't think it's enough to make us competitive. Our relics are actually extremely restrictive and I think the new Dreadknights HQ can only take the Liber (-1 Leadership to nearby Daemons).
We did get a Warlord Trait to re-roll charges though. Our Stratagems and Psychic powers seem fine I think. Our special guns are all still Heavy.
Yeah, I don't really understand GW on this one. Why release GK so quick after the index when they only change the bare minimum?
I don't mean to sound spoiled when I say "I expected more", but seeing that the main points that people were complaining about didn't even get touched and that GK didn't get any new models just feels like a wasted dex for me.
Gest wrote: Yeah, I don't really understand GW on this one. Why release GK so quick after the index when they only change the bare minimum?
I don't mean to sound spoiled when I say "I expected more", but seeing that the main points that people were complaining about didn't even get touched and that GK didn't get any new models just feels like a wasted dex for me.
Pretty much this. I won't be getting this book for that exact reason. Not enough of a change for the stuff I have.
We needed basic QoL changes, we got... REALLY overcosted stratagems. 3 CP for another fight phase? 2 CP for 1 turn psybolt? Those needed to be 1 less each. Got to say I was REALLY let down here, I saw the potential of stratagems in being able to really kick an army into overdrive in terms of viability. If the CP costs were actually accurate I could see GK being really competitive. Another ed. of pretty much nothing.
It's really hilarious they said GK would be op without the smite change... everything shows otherwise.
We needed basic QoL changes, we got... REALLY overcosted stratagems. 3 CP for another fight phase? 2 CP for 1 turn psybolt? Those needed to be 1 less each. Got to say I was REALLY let down here, I saw the potential of stratagems in being able to really kick an army into overdrive in terms of viability. If the CP costs were actually accurate I could see GK being really competitive. Another ed. of pretty much nothing.
It's really hilarious they said GK would be op without the smite change... everything shows otherwise.
CSM seem to be getting lots of point reduction like C:SM did too. Not us though! We can't even get some AP on the Psycannon or Assault on our Flamer(Incinerator)!
Fuzzy image taken from the preview video on youtube....
Looks like they upped the cost of terminators troops to 46 points base? The most point inefficient unit in our troops section just got nerfed a bit more from the looks of it. Oh well, back to spamming strikes, interceptors and paladins.
FW FAQed our option to get mortis dreads (as in, we can't) and GW stated that you need to use the newest datasheets for dreadnoughts (that don't allow double autocannons). No stormhawk/stormtalons can really make up for that massive loss in long range firepower imo.
...So it is possible to have a Brigade detachment of nothing but Grey Knights, but it sucks...
Everyone who can has falchions.
HQ Draigo
Brotherhood Champ
Troop
GKSS - Vanilla x 6
Elites
Apothecary - Hammer x 2
Apothecary - Vanilla x 1
Fast Attack
Interceptor Squad - Vanilla x 3
Heavy Support
Purgation - 4 Psilencers x 3
Just under 2k points, what does it get us?
- 12 CP so we can actually use these stratagems
- Everything in Power Armor except for 4 models
- 65 models on the board divided by 17 units, so 8 possible deepstrikers
- Make the Bro. Champ Warlord for the charge reroll
- Obj. Secured and Psychic Mastery
What would the strategy be with this list? Well we have 12 CP, so lets start spending that CP to put extra units into deepstrike, Bro. Champ is in the chamber, -1 CP.
8 units go in, we already got 1, 7 more.
- Draigo
- Apothecary Hammer
- Apothecary Hammer
- GKSS - GKSS - GKSS - GKSS
Why not the Purgations? Because we want the melee to actually be in melee and not having the enemy removing models for a harder charge. Purgation are just gonna have to hoof it up the board. The last 2 GKSS will provide an escort, the enemy will have reserves on some kind of course. The last Apoth. can replenish models as they walk up because he probably won't be doing anything else.
Interceptors shunt up the board.
All of a sudden we have 10 units for a total of 38 force-sword wielding models in the face w/ 11 CP left. We won't be using the bolter weapon stratagem because we don't have a 10 man unit to benefit.
But is the enough? I have no idea. Do we NEED 9+ CP? Probably not.
But I know I don't have that many PA Grey Knights, I don't think it is a good list either. Thoughts?
Looks like they upped the cost of terminators troops to 46 points base? The most point inefficient unit in our troops section just got nerfed a bit more from the looks of it. Oh well, back to spamming strikes, interceptors and paladins.
FW FAQed our option to get mortis dreads (as in, we can't) and GW stated that you need to use the newest datasheets for dreadnoughts (that don't allow double autocannons). No stormhawk/stormtalons can really make up for that massive loss in long range firepower imo.
So much this^.
I don't understand this. GK in the index seemed very narrow when it came to creativity of list building, I hoped that the codex would open this up a bit, giving us maybe more than one strategy to play. This way GK are even more of a one trick pony than before.
Now they took the last real long range option we had, while giving us flyers that no one really asked for. (but of course, everyone has enough Dreads. But no GK has the flyers, $$$$ buy new stuff!)
I'm getting even more disappointed the more I think about it.
I didn't really wanted them to get OP(I remember 5th Edition), I just wanted a few more options, a little bit more finesse than alphastrike and hope for the best.
Just a bit better heavy weapons that aren't worse than Stormbolters(for their points).
FW FAQed our option to get mortis dreads (as in, we can't) and GW stated that you need to use the newest datasheets for dreadnoughts (that don't allow double autocannons). No stormhawk/stormtalons can really make up for that massive loss in long range firepower imo.
Not sure why everyone considers this a big deal. Dakka dreads are sweet looking, but the FW Doomglaive pattern is cheaper while being vastly better in CC, and only slightly worse at shooting. He should be your pick for an optimised list.
If you want something to sit in the back and plink away, a razorback with twin lascannons is far cheaper and just as effective anyway.
The Terminators points increase was absolutely mindless, but who was using them anyway?
So its not a perfect release, but remember this is GW guys. We could have ended up like Iron Warriors. I'm gonna play a few games before I make up my mind.
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